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THIRD
REPORT
FROM THE
SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS
ON THE
SWEATING SYSTEM
WITH THE
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
AND APPENDIX.
Session 1889.
Ordered to be printed 2nd May 1889.
LONDON:
PRINTED BY HENRY HANSARD AND SON;
AND
Published by Eyre and Spottiswoode, East Harding-street, London, E C., d-'
and 32, Abingdon-street, Westminster, S.W. ;
Adam and Charles Black, North Bridge, Edinburgh ;
and Hodges, Figgis, and Co., 104, Grafton-street, Dublin.
( 48 ^.
[ ii ]
THIRD REPORT --------- p. iii
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ------- p. 1
APPENDIX - - - p. 671
3 ^ 1 . 9 .
Gr T a.' I*
V.3
1 iii ]
THIRD REPORT.
BY THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Sweating
System in the United Kingdom, and to Report tliereon to the House
from time to time.
ORDERED TO REPORT,
That the Committee have met, and have further considered the subject
referred to them.
And have directed the further Minutes of Evidence taken before them up to
the 12th of April last (with the exception of certain evidence relating to the
alleged existence of the Sweating System in the City of Glasgow, the inquiry
into which had not then been completed) to be laid before your Lordsliips.
2nd May 1889.
180122
( 48 .)
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[ 1 ]
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
(11.)
A
L 2 ]
LIST OF WITNESSES.
Die Jovis, 28® Fehruarii, 1889.
PAGE.
Mr. Edward Squire, m.d. - _ - 3
Mr. Frederick Preston, l.r.C.p. - - 18
The Hon. Edward Peirson Thesiger, C.B. 22
Die Martis, 5° Martii, 1889.
Mr. Richard Juggins - - - - 27
Mr. Thomas Homer - - - 59
Die Mercurii, 6° Martii, 1889.
Mr. Thomas Homer - - - - 79
Mr. Richard Juggins - - - - 89
The Reverend Harold Rylett - - 90
Benjamin Price 108
Mrs. Louisa Addleton - - - - 1 1 3
Die Jovis, 7° Martii, 1889.
Mrs. Maria Parish - - - - 117
Elizabeth Wright - - - - - 122
Mrs. Maria Tibbetts _ _ _ _ 128
Mrs. Emma Parsons _ _ _ _ 135
Samuel Priest . _ . _ _ 140
Thomas Blunt - - - - 149
William Woodall - - - - - 152
Die Veneris, 8® Martii, 1889.
Mr. Thomas Homer - - _ _ 157
The Reverend Harold Rylett - - 159
Mr. Richard Jugro-ins - - - - 161
Thomas Wyle - - - - - 175
John Price - - - - - -178
Thomas Lees _ _ - - _ 192
Die Martis, 12° Martii, 1889.
Mr. M^illiam Price - - - - 199
Mrs. Sarah Hackett - - - - 211
Mr. Richard Juggins - - - - 218
Caroline Cox - - - - - 219
Alice Brettle _ - - _ _ 223
Jane Smith - - - - - -227
Edwin Guest _ _ - _ _ 229
Die Jovis, 21° Martii, 1889.
PAGE.
Mr. John Edward Morris _ - _ 357
Mr. Hugh Richard Ker _ _ - 368
Mr. Benjamin Thompson - . . 375
Mr. Benjamin Hingley, M.p. - - - 380
Die Veneris, 22° Martii, 1889.
Mr. Adolphe Smith, F.C.s. - - . 397
Mr. Walter Bassano _ _ . _ 407
Die Luna, 25° Martii, 1889.
Mr. Charles C. W. Hoare - _ - 435
Die Martis, 26° Martii, 1889.
Mr. Jabez Smith ----- 469
Mr. Alfred Booth ----- 486
Mr. George Potton - - . - 490
Die Jovis, 28° Martii, 1889.
Mr. George Potton - _ _ - 509
Mr. Jabez Smith - - - - 519, 540
Mr. Benjamin Squire - - - - 519
Mr. Charles Edward Tomlin - - - 526
Die Veneris, 29° Martii, 1 889 .
George H. Woodcock - - - - 543
John Dutnell ----- 550
Mr. John Leckie - - - - 553, 573
Mr. Rowland Mason . - - - 566
Lieutenant - Colonel N. Willoughby
Wallace ------ 574
Mr. Evan C- Nepean, C.B. - 579
Die Jovis, 4* Aprilis, 1889.
Mr. Evan C. Nepean, c.B. _ - - 583
Mr. Stuart Uttley . _ - - 588
Mr. George Edward Hukin - - - 609
Mr. Chai’les Law ----- 616
Die Jovis, 14° Martii, 1889.
Mr. Richard Juggins - - - - 233
Samuel Priest ----- 242
Mr. George Green - - - - 246
Die Veneris, 15° Martii, 1889.
Mr. George Green - - - - 273
Mr. J. W. Higgs Walker - _ _ 283
Mr. John George Reay . - - 291
Mr. James S. Parry , - - - 302
Die Martis, 19° Martii, 1889.
Mr. John Lincoln Mahon - - - 315
Mr. David Moore ----- 332
Mr. Joseph Price ----- 343
Mr. James Cox ----- 347
Mr. Thomas Cole ----- 350
Die Veneris, 5° Aprilis, 1889.
Mr, Charles Law ----- 623
Mr. John Wilson ----- 625
Ml’. William John Davis _ - - 636
Die Jovis, 11° Aprilis, 1889.
Mr. George Potton - . - - 657
Mr. Jabez Smith ----- 659
Die Vene)is, 12° Aprilis, 1889.
Mr, Clement Kinloch Cooke - - - 661
Mr. Jabez Smith - - - - 662, 668
Lieutenant - Colonel N. Willoughby
Wallace ------ 667
Mr. Robert Buxton _ - - - 669
( 3 )
Die Jovis^ 28® Fehruarii^ 1889.
LORDS PRESENT:
Earl of Derby.
Earl Brownlow.
Lord Clinton.
Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.
Lord Eoxford {Earl of Limerick).
Lord Kenrt {Earl of Dunraven and
Mount- Earl).
Lord Monkswell.
Lord Thring.
LORD KENRT (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl), in the Chair.
Mr. EDWARD SQUIRE, m.d., is called in; and, having been sworn, is
Examined, as follows :
17377- Chairman.'] Are you Physician to the North London Hospital for
Consumption ?
I am.
17378. What districts in London are you acquainted with ?
More particidarly just the Soho district outside of Regent-street, the Golden-
square district, and also the North of London. OF course the hospital patients
are consumptive patients coming from all parts of London and the country as
well ; but I am fairly intimately acquainted with the Soho district, because of
my connection with the St. George’s and St. James’s Dispensary there ; and as
physician to that charity, I have to visit those of the patients who are more
seriously ill at their own homes, so that I see something of their modes of life
as well as the illness to which they are specially liable.
17379. What would be the trades that they are generally engaged in ?
The majority, I think, are tailors and tailoresses and dressmakers.
17380. Do you know anything of Whitechapel?
No, I know nothing personally of Whitechapel.
17381. Would many of your patients be working at the boot and shoe trade ?
A few ; hut there are not so many of my patients in that trade as amongst
the tailors.
17382. Chiefly tailors and milliners ?
They are chiefly tailors and people engaged in sewing in one way or another;
such as waistcoat making or dressmaking.
17383, Most of the' evidence that has been given before the Committee has
been in reference to Whitechapel, I think ; have you read the evidence that has
been given before the Committee?
I have read a fair amount of it.
17384. As to the tailoring trade and the trades connected with clothing.^
Yes.
17385. Would you say generally that the circumstances of the workers, as
they have been described before the Committee, are similar to those in Soho ?
( 11 ,) A 2 They
4
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2Sth February 1889.] Mr. Squire, m.d. {^Continued.
The)" are similar ; but they appear to have all the bad parts aggravated in
Whitechapel.
17386. You mean that the condition of things is not so bad in Soho, as has
been described before the Committee, as prevailing in the East End?
No, not so bad.
17387. Do you find that the people working in these trades that you have
mentioned are specially liable to consumption, in your experience ?
The tailors are well known medically to be specially liable to consumption.
A great many observations have been made on the subject, and it has been
found that the mortality from consumption amongst tailors is practically one-
fourth of the whole number of deaths from every cause in that class. That is
a very large proportion.
17388. That would be tailors and tailoresses, I suppose?
Chiefly the tailors.
17389. Lord Thring.'l Do you mean in London ?
Yes.
1 7390. In the bills of mortality, in what is known as the Registrar General’s
district ?
Yes ; the mortality from consumption in the whole of London is about one-
tenth of all the deaths ; amongst tailors it is one-fourth.
17391. Chairman.'] To what do you attribute that larger mortality amongst
the tailors ?
Chiefly to the occupation being carried on indoors, the want of exercise, the
want of fresh air (more especially the want of fresh air), and all these causes
aggravated, of course, when there is a difficulty in getting a sufficient amount
of food.
17392. That would affect the whole tailoring trade in general, and not merely
the consumptive persons in it ?
Yes ; but more especially those persons in whose cases the conditions in
which they v/ere living and working were unsanitary ; and where their pay
was not sufficient to enable them to get sufficient food it would be aggravated,
and the conditions would be those described as being most marked under the
sweating system.
1 7393. In fact, the worse the condition of the people, as regards wages and long
hours and overcrowding, the greater the prevalence would be of consumption ?
The greater the prevalence would be of consumption, and that more espe-
cially when the rooms in which they work are not sufficiently supplied with
fresh air and means of ventilation ; when, in fact, there is overcrowding.
17394. In your experience, is there much overcrowding in the districts
which you know best ?
There is overcrowding in this way : much of the work amongst the poor
whom I see is taken home and done by them at their own homes, and then a
whole family will live in a single room in the majority of cases; and in that
room the work is carried on by the father of the family, possibly by one of his
sons, and perhaps a daughter or two ; and so work and living have to go on in
the same room, and that a room which is only big enough for, perhaps,
about half the number of people who are always there, even if they got
plenty of fresh air and exercise between times.
] 7395. What do you mean by big enough ” ?
I mean that the air-containing space of the room would support, perhaps,
three persons, w ith a chance of fair health, whereas some six or eight people
live there continuously, and tw o or three of them carry on work in that same
room.
17396. That would be in their own private dwellings ?
In their own private dwellings.
17397. I understand
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
2%th February 1889.1 Mr, Squire, m.u. \^Contirmed.
17397. I understand you that all these people working would be members of
the same family ?
Yes ; they would be members of the same family. Naturally, the unhealthi-
ness is quite the same, whether they are the same family or not, and so one must
take that into eonsideratlon if possible.
1 7398. Perhaps you eon Id give the Committee some general deseription of the
people you are speaking of ; how they live, in regard to the number of rooms
they occupy, and so on ?
I had, perhaps, better quote one exam|)le that struck me very much at the time.
There was a room about 12 or 14 feet by 10, and eight feet high, as near as I
could judge it by my eye ; in this room there was a large bed, the only bed in
the room, on which the mother of the family was dying of consumption ; although
it was summer, there was a large fire in the room, before which tlie husband was at
his work as a tailor, pressing cloth, and so, of course, filling the air with steam ;
besides him, there was his son also at xvork ; then there was a daughter with
her sewing machine at work ; and playing on the floor were two or three small
children ; all crowded into a room which would properly contain two or three
people at the most, with due consideration for health. The importance of
that particular case is that as consumption is properly called an infectious com-
plaint (I may possibly explain that later, because “ infectious ” is a wide term to
use), this patient with consumption was constantly breathing out into the air
the germs of the disease. Then, as there is not sufficient air-space in this
room, the air soon becomes thoroughly crowded with these germs, and the
individuals living in the room necessarily breathe them in constantly ; and
as this condition of want of fresh air by itself, without any other consi-
derations, uould lower the general health of the people constantly living in that
condition, they become more liable to take the disease when they take in any
infectious particles ; that is to say, that supposing these infectious particles
gain entrance into the lungs or into the breathing apparatus of a healthy person,
they are probably breathed out again before they do any great harm ; as long
as there is good breathing power, and the person’s health is good, these germs
do no harm, they are breathed in and breathed out, and do not get a chance of
lodging; but u'hen the general health is diminished and depressed, the chance
of these germs remaining and developing so as to create the disease is very
much increased, and the chances are that the majority of those peofilc would
become consumptive ; specially the younger members of the family.
17399. You said that you would explain, later on, what you meant by infec-
tion would it not be a good opportunity to explain now?
Certainly. It is known now, as the result of some investigations published in
1882 , that consumption depends upon the entrance into the body, and its lodg-
ment there, of a micro-organism, a minute particle, which is proved to be the
carrier, if not the cause, of the disease, d his has been proved by numerous
experiments, in which these particular micro-organisms having been injected
under tlie skin, or into the cavities of the bodies of animals, have invariably
produced tuberculosis ; and consumption is tuberculosis of the lung. This
result has happened in all the experiments that have been made ; and on the
other hand, inoculating or injecting under the skin other irritating particles,
even such things as putrid muscle, does not produce tuberculosis at all; and
therefore we have to allow that tuberculosis, and of course, with it, consumption,
which is a local tuberculosis in the lung, is always produced by, and must
follow, the taking in of these micro-organisms, or germs, as they are more
popularly called, and cannot result unless such germs are taken into the body.
This being so, you want a previous case of consumption before anybody else
can take it. The expired air from patients with consumption, the phlegm that
is expectorated, and so on, all contain these germs in very’^ large quantities ;
and if people are constantly exposed to the breathing of air containing such
particles they become liable to take the disease, especially if their general health
is diminished, that diminution of the general healtli constituting what we call
a predisposition. The influence of the conditions under which these poor
people work is shown chiefly in producing a predisposition.
( 11 .) A3
17400. The
6
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2St.il February 1889.] Mr. Squire, M.D. \ Canlinued.
17400. The disease then could not, I presume, be carried bei'ond the room
where the work was going on, by means of clothing, or in that kind of way ?
iiie disease could not be carried in clothing very easily. It is possible that
if some particle of expectoration were to get on the clothing it might be carried
by that ; hut of course that is an unlikely thing to happen. Beyond that I do
not see in any way that it could be carried.
17401. Then I understand you to say that the fact of this overcrowding a
number of people breathing the air which is full of these germs, and their
being also in an enfeebled state, a state of low vitality, predisposes them to take
the disease ; and that that is the way in wliich this great mortality from con-
sumption arises ?
Exactly so, that is the explanation ; and the fact comes out that the influence
of climate, which is generally considered to be so great a cause of consumption,
is infinitesimal as compared with tlie efl'eet of such overcrowding and unsanitary
conditions of life and modes of working. The probability is that if we could
get people living and working in healthy rooms, and under fair sanitary con-
ditions, we might be able to diminish the present rate of consumption to, say,
one-half.
17402. Can you inform us whether there is an hereditary predisposition to
the disease ?
The predisposition is distinctly hereditary ; that is to say that if the parents’
health is lowered by themselves being consumptive, they are certain to transmit
to their children a weakly constitution, and that, in itself, predisposes them to
the disease. As to whether consumption is directly hereditary or not is still an
open question; I think it possible, but very rare; but there is no doubt what-
ever that the predisposition to the disease is very markedly transmitted.
17403. That is to say, we will take, for instance, half-a-dozen people (I think
you mentioned that number) working in this small room, children and grown
people, that the conditions would not only affect the individuals working in
that room, but might affect their children ?
Exactly so ; these particular children that I mentioned being in that room,
besides themselves becoming predisposed because of breathing the unhealthy
air, are also affected with an hereditary predisiiositiou, and therefore
doubly liable to become consumptive, and they would transmit this pre-
disposition to their children and so on. So that if you create a new case of
consumption it does not stop there, but goes on, and so eventually you get a
degeneration of race.
17404. Have you much experience of tailors working in factories or in larger
shops under better conditions than those you have described ?
The tailors in the district which I know best, who work in shops, generally
work for those larger firms in Regent-street, and round about there, and seem
to be working under very fair conditions.
17405. They would be working in places subject to inspection under the Fac-
tory and Workshops Act?
Yes ; they seem to be, as far as my experience in that district is concerned,
better off and less liable to disease than those who are working at home.
17406. As to these people who work at home, does the head of the family,
for instance, work also in a shop, and bring home work besides, or how do they
conduct their business r
I think a large number of them work entirely at home; some of them seem
to w ork in shops, and then work at home as well ; but a great number of them
woik entirely at home.
17407. You do not know, I suppose, how those who wmrk entirely at home
their work ; whether they get it direct from the tailor or through an inter-
mediary, or how ?
1 should be only speaking from hearsay if I were to answer that question,
because I rarely inquire into these cases except as they affect their health.
17408. These
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
/
28^/i February 1889.] Mr. Squike, M.D. [_Continu€tl.
i 7408. These dwelling rooms you spoke of would be subject to inspection,
I presume, by the local sanitary authorities ?
Yes; but, as far as my experience goes, that is inadequate. First of all, the
people themselves do not care very mucli to complain; and, secondly, when
they do complain, the constant reply they give when one asks, “Has the sani-
tary inspector been appealed to ? ” is, “ Oh, yes, he has been, hut be said he
had not any power.”
17409. Do you know what the cubic space of air per head is, legally, in work-
shops and factories ?
1 believe that no regulation is laid down in the Act, but there are tw’o regula-
tions that I know of; one is 250 cubic feet per head for each individual ; that
is for workrooms and factories ; that is not laid down by any Act, but I under-
stand from the Inspector of Factories that that is thende that they make as the
minimum. Then there is an order that was made when Sir William Vernon
Harcourt was the Home Secretary, for the cases in which the exten-
sion is allowed under Part 2 of Section 53 of the Factory and Workshops
Act for keeping the workrooms open for a lo'oger period; when a workroom
is open for that longer period, which I believe may be an hour and a
half, the cubic spc.ce there is to be at least 400 feet for every young
person and woman so emphjyed. That is to make some special allowance
for the gas. I think the 250 cubic feet is a very low minimum, to say
the least ; every case seems to want looking into on its own merits. It
depends so much upon the nature of the trade carried on in the work-
shop, the number of uindows, the means of ventilation, and the number of
gas burners, as to how much cubic space ought to be allowed. An ordinary
healthy individual requires about 3,000 cubic feet of air every hour. In this
climate it is found that one can only change the air of a room with free ventila-
tion about three time in every hour, that is without creating a draught and
making the place too cold to stay in ; so that in calculating the cubical contents
of a room, you ought to give 1,000 cubic feet for every person, if you want to
keep the air at a comparatively pure rate, that is in a perfectly healthy state.
That might be modified to, say, 500 cubic feet, without any very great damage to
anybody. Below that it is getting rather too low. In the .Army Regulations
the barrack accommodation is 600 cubic feet for each man ; but there, of course,
the men are not in those barrack-rooms all day long ; and there are strict regu-
lations about the windows being thoroughly opened and a change in the air of
the rooms. Then again, and this is a most important thing, on every barrack-
room the number of men to be allowed in that room is marked up, and it seems
to me that that might be considered in deciding what might be done in factories
and workrooms. It i.s important that the number of people should be stated
that may be allowed in them. Then, when one comes to consider the gas
burners, every gas burner when alight consumes about three times as much air
as a single person: so that you want to make allowance for every gas burner in
the proportion of three people to e\ ery burner. Of course they are not alight
all day long, but they must be considend.
17410. Have you calculated at all how many cubic feet per head there were in
this room that you described to us ?
No, I have not calculated it out ; it would take a minute or two to do that.
I can refer you to some evidence on that point if it is of any use, in the Local
Government Board’s Report.
17411. I think you might give us personally the contents of the room you
mentioned ?
That loom was not measured except wiili my eye ; it is therefore only an
approximate measurement, so that it is not of much value.
17412. Could you give us a general idea how much smaller it is than what you
have mentioned as being desirable lor health? iThe Witness makes a cal-
culation )
Taking the size that 1 have mentioned ; a room 12 feet by 10 feet, and eight
(11.) A 4 feet
8
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2Si/i February 1889 .]
Mr. Squire, m.d.
[ Continued.
feet high, that is less than 1,000 cubic feet, and putting six people in that
room, would leave 160 cubic feet for each. Of course, really, children should
be counted as equal to adults, though 1 believe very often they are calculated
as two children to one adult; but I think that is done by medical officers of
health with one idea, and that idea is this : that when the families of poor
people increase they naturally think it very hard if they are, so to speak, rated
at a higher cubic space ; they do not want to increase the number of their
rooms for eveiy additional child they have; they say, ^‘This small child cannot
take up so much air that we shall liave to enlarge our space.”
1741 3. Practically, in this room you are speaking of, the air which you say is
about sufficient for one human being has had to do for six ?
Yes ; Jind then one has to take into consideration a marked thing about
these rooms, and that is, that the windows even will not open, or else the
people will not open them if they can be opened. I have found very often
myself, when I have tried to open the windows, that they have stuck so fast
that they cannot be moved ; and sometimes I have been told that the people
have tried to open the windows, but the frames are so rotten that they dare not
go any further. The result is that the)^ do not get any ventilation except
through the doors; that is to say, the foul air coming up through the doors
fiom the rest of the staircase is the only change they get from the foul air
produced by respiration in their own rooms.
17414. I understand you that you do not think that the amount of air provided
by law is sufficient, and that you do not think it would be practicable or
possible to lay down any fixed rule on that subject;
I think every work-room ought to be inspected, and the allowance of cubical
space for each individual calculated for each particular room.
1 7415. Would you leave that to the factory inspector to do ?
It seems to me that no room should be used as a work-room until it has
been so inspected and licensed as being fit in construction for the purpose,
but the license should also say how many people it should contain, and for how
many hours a day. That of course is a matter that requires some medical
knowledge, and therefore the factory inspector should work under, if he does
not take with him, a medical officer.
1741b. That would affect, of course, only the factories and workshops coming
under the Act; how would you propose to deal with these domestic workshops
and private rooms where a family only are working ?
There are two suggestions that occur to me. The one is whether it might be
possible to institute public work-rooms. What gave me the idea is the public
wasli-bouses, which have done away so largely with the necessity first of all for
washing the clothes in a single room, and then hanging them up to dry in this
room wdiere everybody lives ; now they can take them to the wash-house and get
that done away with. Similarly, there might be a large room in which a man
for a small sum could find plenty of room for his work, and some of the neces-
sary appliances. For instance, if he were a tailor he could find his board and
irons, and a stove for heating them. As regards that work-room there are a
good many difficulties which strike me, but I cannot offer any solution for
them. The first is, who shall supply those rooms ; whether it should be done
by the rates, which is, perhaps, undesirable, or whether it would not be i)etter
that the men should do it by combination. But as regards the people who
work at home (and who will work at home whether they have got a public room
to go to or not, because they prefer it), I think it might be possible to place
all the tenement houses under inspection ; all houses that are let out to a large
number of families might be licensed for a certain number of families, or a
certain number of persons, according to the cubical contents of the rooms, and
the number of the rooms, and, of course, the means of ventilation ; and the
licensing for a certain number should aho carry with it the liability to inspection.
We should then, at all events, lessen the amount of overcrowding in the
people’s own rooms, and these home-workers would be subject to sanitary
supervision by the mere fact of their houses being inspected.
17417. Do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
9
28^/i February 1889. J Mr. Squire, m.d. S^Continued,
1 7417. Do you mean inspected by the sanitary authorities ?
By the sanitary authorities. Of course you cannot prevent a man working
as many hours a day as he likes m his ovvn room, but you can prevent him, at
least I think you ought to he able to prevent him, working in such a small
room that he is damaging his own health and that of his children.
17418. Earl Brownlow.~\ As a matter of fact you cannot interfere, can you
unless the people sleep in the room ?
I am not certain about that ; I think it is so ; in fact, I doubt whether you,
can interfere very much now at all.
17419. Lord Thring.~\ With respect to those rooms which you have described
so graphically, the domestic workshops, as 1 understand it, if they are in what
you call tenement houses, by which I suppose you mean houses containing a
good many separate dwellings, you would subject them in all cases, whether
they are worked in or not, simply from the fact that they are tenement houses,
to supervision, and you would have a license specifying how many peojde should
live in each room?
Yes.
1 7420. Chairman.'] You said that they should be licensed, and subject to
inspection ; but what I want to know is, what inspection ; because they are now
subject to inspection ?
I take it that now they are subject to inspection, if the occupier of the
room makes a complaint.
17421. Lord Thring.] Subject to sanitary inspection?
Yes.
17422. Chairman.] But would you suggest that the landlord of the house
should be obliged before letting his rooms to lodgers to specify the number of
rooms, and that they should be inspected, and that the number of lodgers he
could take should be limited ?
Just SO; one reason for that seems to me to be this: at present, if the
occupier of the room makes a complaint to the sanitary inspector, he is very
liable to be turned out and somebody else will come in, as these workers
this particular district that I am speaking of must all live in a certain con-
fined area, because they must be near their work, and if they want to go to
the other side of Regent-street, for example, they cannot find there the class of
houses that they require ; so that if one person goes out it is very easy to get
another person in ; and therefore the occupiers of the rooms are rather careful
about giving notice of things of this kind. But I think if the owner of the house,
the landlord himself, were made liable, the people would be only too glad to tell
the sanitary inspector if there was any room in which they considered that the
sanitary conditions were not right.
17423. Do many of these men working in their own rooms, employ any
labour besides their own families ?
That is rather out of the range of my knowledge, and I could not give that
information from my own knowledge.
17424. You could not tell whether if there were half-a-dozen or more
people in the room they were all the members of the family, or some of them
paid hands ?
No, I could not tell ; my belief is that in most cases they are members of
the same family, but it is only in a few instances that 1 have ever had occasion
to ask the question definitely.
17425. Lord Thring.] With reference to your leading principle, you have
stated very clearly that tailors, I think, are subject to a mortality of one in four
from consumption, as compared with one in 10 in the community generally;
but 1 presume that the unsanitary causes that produce consumption produce
also oilier diseases, do they not r
Yes, certainly.
( 11 .) B
17426. Therefore
10
MiNDTKS OK KMDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
28?/i Felruary 1889.] Mr. Squire, m.i>. [Continueil.
\ 7426. Therefore, do I understand you to say that the tailor is more unhealthy
as respects consumption only ?
I believe that the tailors are more unhealthy altogether; but as consumption
is my special subject, I have naturally given more attention to that; I mean, I
am certain of my figures in the one and not in the other.
1 7427. Then assuming, as I dare say is the case, that they are more unhealthy
generally, is it not your experience that if you were to apply your rule of a
proper quantity of cubic feet to almost any house in London that is inhabited
hy the working classes, I will not say to any house, hut to the great majority of
houses, they would all be defective ?
Probably the majority would, but there is a great difference in this respect ;
the out-door workers and labourers get a change of air by going out to work ;
these people we are speaking of stay at home and work there, and so live in
this atmosphere day and night.
17428. But what I wished very much to direct your attention to is this; that
considering the great number, necessarily, of houses that are overcrowded, if
the Legislature were to adopt your system of licensing (which, 1 admit, would
be like what exists in a barrack), so that you could not possibly have more
people living in a house than the licensed number, the efiect of that would be,
that a very large quantity of houses indeed must he added to accommodate the
artizans ; because all are over crowded at present ; that would be the effect,
would it not?
It would possibly result in a large number of them going out into the suburbs,
which I think would be an advantage.
17429. Yes ; I quite agree that it would be beneficial that such an increase of
accommodation should be given, but how are you to do it; you have got a
certain space of ground; it is perfectly obvious that if your system were adopted,
it would be most efficient ; but take the case of a family with five children ; a
fresh baby comes, and they can under your system no longer live in that
dwelling ; is it w ithin the bounds of possibility that we can provide the accom-
modation that would be requisite r
I see what you mean, and 1 see the extreme difficulty of it,
1 7430. It seems to me that all you could do is to endeavour, so far as you can,
to ameliorate their condition ; but surely anything like your stringent system
would break down instantly ; it would be impossible to enforce it ?
'What one seems to want is more strict sanitary inspection ; I mean that
many of the rooms in which these people live would do very well for them if
they’ could get the fresh air in, if the windows would open and so on.
1 7431. True ; but, again, is it not the fact that unfortunately they are so sensi-
tive to draughts, that they will not open the windows any way ?
I think it is more ignorance than sensitiveness ; they are afraid that the air
will do them harm.
1 7432. I ask you as a doctor, because 1 have gone into places where the atmo-
sphere was reeking, and when I suggest opening the windows, they say, “Well,
Sir, I will open the windows if you like, but every workman here, including
yourself, would catch cold, the stream of air is so great.” When the gas is
burning, and when these poor people are using these irons, is it possible that if
you opened the window a man would be made ill by it ?
I should think if the window were opentd sufficiently wide he could bear it
very well. I mean if the window is opened a small way only then the air comes
in with a ruslj, and the movement of the air produces a draught ; whereas if it
were opened a good deal wider the air does not come in with the same velocity ;
moreover the danger you speak of can always be obviated by opening a par-
ticular part of the window ; if, for instance, a board is placed so that the current
of air is directed upwards, the air is broken, then, against the ceiling; and so,
with not the same amount of draught, you get ventilation.
17433. Then
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
1 1
28M February 1889.] Mr. Squire, m.d. \^Contiuned.
! 7433. Then your practical recommendation would be this : that you consider
that in these rooms proper modes of ventilation should be adopted so as to
enable the windows to be opened without draughts causing danger to the
inhabitants ?
Yes.
1 7434. You think that would be possible r
1 think it would be possible.
1 7435- Now with respect to the gas ; assuming that the electric light is intro-
duced, would it in your opinion make a very great difference in the healthiness
of these places or not ?
Y es, it would in my opinion, because you do not use up anything like the
amount of oxygen, of fresh air in fact, with the electric light that you do where
you are burning gas.
17436. The electric light uses no oxygen, does it ?
No ; so that you would have all the gain caused by that fact.
17437. And each gas burner, you say, consumes as much air as three people ?
Yes.
17438. Earl of Limerick.'] 1 think you spoke about the cubical space required ;
by custom, 1 think, 250 feet is laid down, but there is no distinct amount stated
in the Act ; that is so, is it not ?
Yes.
17439. But as regards the 400 cubic feet, that is an Order by the Home Secre-
tary, made under the Act ?
Yes.
17440. That is an enforceable Order
That is an enforceable Order; 20lh September 1882 is the date of it.
17441. You consider both those amounts too small ?
Y es, I think they are both too small.
17442. And the amount that you spoke of, the 500 feet, would be what you
consider should be the minimum amount for the day time r
1 think tliat 500 cubic feet would satisfy all demands.
1 7443. For day and night ?
Yes. ■
17444. As regards the sanitary authorities, would you recommend that they
should be appointed by a central authority in future, or as they are at present ?
I think there would be very great advantages in appointing them by a
central authority.
17445. Does it come within your experience that possibly tiiey are in some
cases under local influences now ?
It was an idea of that kind that made me say that I think it would be
advisable to put them under a central authority. At present by their being
under local authorities, it is quite possible that the owner of a large number
of these tenement houses in a district may have sufficient influence to get on
the local committee or board, and then he has got a great deal of power with
the inspectors, and he might even possibly manage their dismissal if they were
too strict wiih his own buildings. If sanitary inspectors were appointed by
some central authority, such for example as the County Councils (that is
merely a suggestion of what 1 have in my mind as the central authoritv),
then they would not be so much under local influence. And so too a medical
officer of health is required, that is to say a medical officer, to advise the
County Council, if they are to have such powers as the inspection of tenement
houses and factories, or even sanitary inspection.
17446. 1 think you said that some difficulties arose on account of the sanitary
inspectors having to be put in motion by persons living in the house ?
Yes.
( 11 .)
B 2
17447. Would
V2
MINUTES OE EVIDENCE TAKEN DEFOJIE THE
28th February 1889.] Mr. Squire, M.D. \_Ct>ntinued.
1 7447. WouM you suggest that that should not be necessary ; that they should
inspect without being first of all put in motion by persons resident in the
various houses ?
I think they ought to have the right of going into a house to inspect.
17448. That they should have the power?
'They should have the power, because people do not always know what is the
best for tliem. But on the other hand I think if the landlord or the owner of
the house were made liable by the license that he holds, the people in the
house would nut object to calling iu the inspector if there was anything radically
wrong.
1 7449. But as regards that, I think you said that they were afraid of being
turned out of their rooms ?
At present they are.
17450. But would they not be equally afraid then; there would still be
nothing, would there, to prevent their being turned out if the landlord knew that
they had complained?
No ; but 1 think that the mere fact of having to hold a license for it would
make him a little careful not to have it said that as soon us a complaint was
made he turned people out.
17451. Lord Clifford of Chudleig 1 i.~\ You mentioned that the rate of con-
sumption among tailors is one-fourth of the total mortality, do you know how
the average of deaths among tailors from consumption among tailors in London,
compares with the general average in the country ?
I think the general average in the country is one-tenth of all the deaths.
17452. Amongst tailors, do you mean ?
No, I am afraid I cannot tell you that.
17453. You cannot tell me whether the country tailor is healther than the
town tailor ?
No ; but 1 think some figures I have may come in appropriately here ; they
are figures showing the difference in the death-rate from consumption, between
London itself and the extra-metropolitan portions of three metropolitan counties,
Middlesex, Kent, and Surrey. The consumption death rate for every million
persons living, in the extra metropolitan portions of Middlesex, Kent, and
Surrey, is only two-thirds of the rate for London itself, showing the effect of
density of population.
17454. When you say that the factory hands are healtliier than those who live
in domestic workshops, is that from actual knowledge of the cases, or only an
inference from the fact that they live in better and more sanitary dwellings ?
Of course that only applies to this particular district at the West End, and
there 1 have got my facts from the patients who come to see me as out-patients,
more especially from those who work at home. Those who come from other
employments come with less serious ailments ; and of those people that I have
to visit at home as being more seriously ill, 1 only go to the worst cases with
the resident medical officer ; of these a very small number, the minority, are
those who work out, and the majority are those who work in their own homes.
17455. If your system, or an analogous system of inspection were adopted, it
would, no doubt, have the effect of removing the population from proximity to
their work ?
1 see that difficulty ; it might have that effect.
17456. I suppose if it did remove them from proximity to their work, there
would always be a tendency for the work to follow them ?
I do not know about that ; but there is this point to be considered : look at
the large number of girls who are employed at di essmaking and so on, who live
some two or three miles from their work ; they are able to come to their work
from that distance very well in the morning, why should not the tailor ? I
think he would be all the more healthy.
17457- Vou
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
13
2%th Fehmary 1889.] Mr. Squire, m.d. {^Continued.
17457. You find that the girls do come long distances ?
Many of the girls employed in shops and factories attached to the shops in
Regent-street come from two or three miles away every morning ; that is to say,
they go up to Camden Town, or to Camherwell, and so on, and they come in
every morning. I think the tailors, as a class, would be very much more
healthy if they could get that two or three miles’ walk every day. In talking
of the inspection of tenement houses there is another point that appears to me
to be worth consideration, and that is, whether the sections of the Public
Health Act which apply to houses that are let in lodgings might not be made
compulsory with regard to all lodging-houses under a certain rateable value.
I refer to sections which allow inspection as to ventilation, cubic space, and the
notification of infectious diseases in a house. As it is at present, local authorities
may bring these sections of the Act into force in their own district if they wish
but it is not compulsory.
17458. Do you know any part of London where it is done ?
In'London it is rarely done; I do not know any part of London where it is
done ; in many country towns it is done.
17459. It is not done in Chelsea ?
Not to my knowledge.
17460. Lord Monkswell.^ About ventilation; do not you think that houses
might be fitted up with Tobin tubes ?
That would answer the purpose if you had got a good outlet as well.
17461. Then you do not think it is a practical suggestion now ?
Under present circumstances I do not think it would quite do. You want
really some diffusing ventilator ; an inlet of air by which the current of air is
diffused before it comes into the room, and that obviates the draught.
I 7462. I understood you to say that one-tenth of the total deaths in London
was from consumption ; now you say that the total amount of deaths in London
from consumption is a third more than in the whole of the country ; so I
suppose that only one death in 15 is due to consumption throughout the
country ?
The difficulty is that we are taking rather different figures. In the first
place I was talking about one-fourth the total death-rate, without saying how
much that is ; in this case I am talking about the proportion of deaths for
every million persons living.
17463. Where?
In London for the one, and then for the other in the extra-metropolitan
portions of Middlesex, Kent, and Surrey; just taking the metropolitan counties,
so as not to have the influence of soil and climate.
17464. Then taking it in London, I understand you to say that one-tenth of
the total number of deaths is from consumption ; in other words, one person in
10 in London dies from consumption; that is your proposition ?
One person in 10 in the whole country.
17465. I understood you to say that taking the London district, one quarter of
the deaths of the tailors were from consumption, and one-tenth of the deaths - So that you could give us the number of cases of accidents in the
year of men vvlio at that time were working in any of the docks?
Yes.
17.', 32. Lord Thring.^ That would only be approximately true ; you could
not tell with certainty r
No, I could not ; it would be very difficult unless you looked up each case.
The better plan would be to take so many cases and look them up at their
homes.
17533. Chairman.'\ But in your book, opposite to a man’s name, you have
got written down his employer, whoever he may be ?
^ es.
17534. Do you mean that that description of their employment is probably
not coirectr
It is correct ; but then, with regard to the question of the time of the accident
occui ring, it might have been when ihe men were away from work ; but never-
theless their occupation would be put down in the column headed “ Occupa-
tion,” and their employer,s name in the column headed “ By whom employed.”
1 7535. You mean, if a man broke his leg to-day, he might have been working
at the dock yesterday ?
Yes, and on being asked his occupation he would say “dock labourer,” and
it would be so put down in this book.
1 7536. Is that likely to occur, do you think ?
Not very often; but I pointed out the fallacy just to warn you.
] 7537. For that reason the entry would not be absolutely reliable ?
No ; in most cases I should say it would be reliable, but I gave you that
instance simply as a warning.
•
17538. You told us that there were six or seven fatal cases last year of men
described as dock labourers ?
Yes, or stevedores. The first man, a stevedore, was one of the foremen from
the East India Docks.
1753Q. Then you would be able to give us also for our information, at another
time, a list of the number of accidents, serious or not, of men who have described
themselves as dock labourers ?
Since I have had an intimation of this sort of thing being desired, I have been
putting down “ dock labourer ” to them ; 1 have for a month or two done so,
putting the “ d ” to the labourer.
17540. If you think it would be more reliable to take it over a shorter period
than a year, you could do so, unless they are accidents averaged for the year.
If you could give us more accurate information for the last three monihs, for
instance, you could take that period ?
I can give it by counting them, but it would take some time, I have to go
through this book to classify the cases for the year, but to take out the dock
cases would be an immense amount of work.
17541. You say that for two or three months your books contain accurate
inibrmation of the number of accidents to dock labourers ?
Yes.
17542. But that it would take you a long time to take the cases out?
Yes, it would take some time.
17543. Could you leave the books here?
No, I am affuffi not. We use these every day ; they are day books. Taking
out
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
21
2Hth February 1889.] Mr. PliESTON, E.ll.C.P. \_Continued.
out all the dock cases would be such a thing to undertake that I am afraid I
should not be able to fulfil it.
1 7544. Are many of these accidents ruptures ?
JS'ot very many.
17545. You would not say that this is an employment which renders men
very liable to rupture t
Ao, not very ; there are a number of ruptures there, but of course they go
directly to the Truss Society ; they do not come to the Hospital.
17546. The majority of accidents are fractures ?
Fractures of legs and thighs, and lacerations of the hands. Also the men in
the winter time come in nipped up with the cold, absolutely fainting from being
underfed. I am referring to some of these dock labourers, true dock labourers;
and also in the summer overcome by the heat from being underfed, and not
properly clothed.
17547. How long have you been at the Poplar Hospital?
Two years next Alay.
• i754''h Have you had previous experience at other hospitals with other
classes of labourers ?
At the London Hospital; I was there first.
17549. Should you say that the work in the docks ivas more dangerous, more
conducive to accidents, than any other out-door labour r
I do not know' about “any other.” I have not sufficient experience, for
instance, in the iron works ; I should say they were very dangerous ; but I
should say dock labouring was a very dangerous occupation.
17550. You would not agree with Colonel Martindale that apparently it was
a very safe one, judged by his figures ?
No, 1 should not.
17551. Early of Derby. ^ What constitutes the special danger?
That, I cannot say.
17552. Chairman.~\ Do you ask these men who come in what the cause of
the accident was ?
Yes.
17553- Generally speaking, how do these accidents occur ?
From bales of goods falling on the top of their necks or heads, or anything
eoming dow’ii and fracturing their legs, or falling down the hold of a ship.
17554. Have any accidents occurred from overcrowding at the dock gates
trying to get work ?
No, i think not ; it is generally at the work that the accidents occur. But
several of the men who come on are quite underfed, not fit a bit for the work;
they go in without any breakfast, and that sort of thing, and then faint; and
they do not like to say so, because they know that if they say anything, the
next time they will not be taken on.
17555- You get besides a large quantity of small, comparatively trivial,
accidenis ?
Yes, lacerated fingers, jambed between the bales, and so on.
1755^’- Ford Monkswell.^j We have had evidenee before to the effect that
some of these men are physically so weak that after working for a couple of
houi s it is a necessity for them to go away with the money they have earned,
because they are not strong enough to go on with their work ; you corroborate
that
I do.
’7557- Chairman.'] The Committee was told in evidence that a great many
accidents were due to the want of proper precautions in working up the ship ;
(fF) c 3 that
22
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2Sth February 1889. J Mr. Preston, l.u.c.p.
[ Continued.
that is to say, that men insufficiently strong, and insufficiently skilled, were
appointed to the gangways to see that the bales were properly clear'-d ; do
you know whether there are any accidents due to that cause?
They sometimes complain of the hurry and scurry ; “a man cannot work like
that, hurried about,” “this is through the hurry,” and that sort of thing they
say.
The Honourable EDWARD PEIRSON THESIGER, c.b., having been
sworn ; is Examined, as follows :
1755)8. (Jhairmmi.~\ You are one of the Clerks in tlie House of Lords, and the
Clerk of this Committee ?
Yes.
17559. Have you received the Reports frt>m the Inspectors that were asked
for ?
Acting under the instructions of the Committee I called at the Home Office
in December last, and asked the authorities there if they would issue a circular
letter to the Inspectors of Factories throughout the country. They did so, and
the Chief Insi)ector, Mr. Redgrave, has sent this letter to the Committee, enclos-
ing a batch of the Reports, but not all that will come. The letter is in these
terms: “ My Lord, — I beg to inform you that I have been in communication with
the members of the staff in order to procure as full information as possible as
to the existence of the sweating system in their districts. The Inspectors of
the following districts report that they have failed to find the sweating s\ stem to
exist: — Hants, Wilts and Dorset, Nottingham and Derby. Eastern Counties:
Bedford, Cambridge, and Herts. Northern Counties : Bradford and neigh-
bourhood, Preston and neighbourhood, Blackburn and neighbourhood, Leicester
and Lincoln, Salford and Oldham, Burnley and Todmorden, Ashton and Staly-
bridge ; Wales; Ireland; Edinburgh and South East of Scotland; Walsall
and neighbourhood, Halifax and Huddersfield, Dundee and North East of
Scotland. I beg to enclose reports from some districts in which sweating in
some form <>r other exists, viz., from Captain May, Leeds ; Mr. Johnston,
Bristol; Mr. Astley, Potteries; Mr. Bignold, Cornwall and Devon; Mr.
Bowling, East End of London ; Mr. Richmond, Liverpool. I shall be able to
forward other reports shortly. I have the honour to be, my Lord, your Lord-
ships obedient servant, Alexander RedgraveJ' I put in the Reports from those
gentlemen that I have received {delivering m the same. Vide Appendix A.)
17560. Do you recollect that it was alleged in evidence that some of the
women w'ho gave evidence before the Committee, as to the way in which the
Weak was done at Chatham Barracks, were deprived of their work, or damaged
in some way, because of having given information to persons inquiring into the
matter ?
Y"es. I have taken some steps to find out whether that statement was
accurate; and 1 think, if I read some letters, that will probably put the case
belbre the Committee as shortly as in any way. The first is a letter of mine
to Mr. Arnold White, dated 6th December 1888 : “ My dear Mr. VVhite, —
I am desired by the Select Committee on the Sweating System to ask you to
be good enough to supply me with a list of the workpeople who were inter-
viewed by you, or on your behalf, at Cliatham in the early part of this year. The
Commiitee would propose to send their names confidentially to the Colonel
Commandant, and to ask him to state the amount of work and wages which
they have received from the master tailor during the months of February and
March or on the one hand, and April May, and June on the other, so as to
compare their receipts before and after their interview's with your agents. This
information he can obtain from the pay-sheets, without mentioning any names
to the master tailor, and the names of the workpeople will not be published by
the Committee.” That is signed by myself. In reply to that 1 received the
following letter from Mr. Arnold White, dated 7 th December 1888 : “Dear
Mr. Thesiger, — I should be very glad to comply with the wish expressed by
their Lordships, were it not that I am precluded from doing so by the uncondi-
tionaal
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
23
February 1889.] The HoN. E. P. Thesiger, c.b. {^Continued.
tional promise of secresy imposed on me by the poor women. As, however,
the object of the Committee is so obviously in the interests of all the women,
I have asked Miss Entwistle to go to Chatham again, and obtain a release
from our joint promise to the extent desired by their Lordships. I’his she will
do as soon as she is able, but she is physically incapable of doing it at present,
I lay stress on the importance of Miss Entwistle making the inquiry, because,
as a Sister at St. Thomas’s, she has a gentle and experienced way of dealing
with the poor women, denied to the ablest solicitor 1 can employ, or to myself.
May I suggest that the pay-sheets be entrusted to me for the same purpose as
that mentioned in your letter? I will go through them with Miss Entwisle and
the other witnesses, and report accordingly. The only comment that 1 would
wish to add is, that, personally, I should be quite content to leave the matter
entirely in the hands of Colonel Munro, who is quite as anxious as I am to see
that justice is done ; but I do not see my way to betray the confidence of these
poor women, even to the Committee, without their express permission,” In reply
to that, I wrote, on 10th December, as follows : “ Dear Mr. White, — I hope that
you may be able to obtain a release from the women, and let me have their
names, as it would seem more desireable that this inquiry into the alleged with-
drawal of work from tiiose women who gave information to you, should be made
officially. If you cannot let me have the names, it would be better for you
to obtain the pay-sheets from Colonel Munro, on your own account, and let
me know the result of your inspection of them.”
17561. Colonel Munro is the Commandant?
He is the Commandant at Chatham. To that I received the following reply,
dated 11th December: “Dear Mr. Thesiger, - 1 have your letter of yesterday, and
should be glad to get from Colonel Munro an inspection of the pay-sheets. This I
cannot do without credentials. Furthermore, the women have greater fear of the
master tailor than they have conhdence in the power of their Lordships to pro-
tect them. What is required, therefore, is a public statement by the Chairman
(confirmed by an Admiralty Order) that the women need fear nothing from*
speaking the truth. It is no use telling me that there is every intention of pro-
tecting the poor women. The women will not be reassured by any intimation
to me. It must be official. An official intimation to that effect, made tiirou«:h
a channel that will reach the women, would produce all the effects desired by
their Lordships.” To that I replied verbally that I thought it quite impossible
for the Committee to do more than to say that they would do their liest to jjro-
tect the women from any injury. The next letter I have to read is from
General Jones, who is the Deputy Adjutant General of the Royal Marines, and is
dated the 1 2th December. He sa\s, “ Dear Sir, — Mr. Arnold Wliite called upon
me yesterday, and asked me to let you hav e certain returns relative lo work
done by women for the master tailor. Royal Marines, at Chatham, in order, as
I understood him, for you to inspect them to see whether the women who had
given Mr. White or his agents information respecting the alleged sweating, had,
since that information was given, been deprived of work by the master tailor.
I am not quite clear upon whose authority this request was made, or whether
the Chairman of the Committee has authorised you to examine them. At
presi-nt I have not the returns at hand, and in the meantime should be glad to
receive some communication from you or the Chairman of the Committee to
confirm, or otherwise, Mr. White’s, request and his grounds for making it.
May 1 at the same time ask you if it is possible for me to obtain a copy of the
evidence given by Colonel Munro and other witnesses on this particular part of
the general subject. Apologising for the trouble to which I am putting you,
yours truly, Howard S. Jones, d.a.g.” In reply to that I sent him a copy of
the evidence, and he replied : “ Dear Sir, — I thank you for your courteous
letter tind kindness in having sent me the Proceedings of the Select Committee.
I will have copies of the returns of the master tailor sent up from Chatham, and
will forward them on immediately they reach me.” A week alter that I re-
ceived the following letter from General Jones: “My dear Sir, — I must
apologise lor not having forwarded to :you the returns in connection with the
Chatham clothing contract asked lor by the Select Committee. An unexpected
difficulty caused the delay. The custom has been for the commandant to send
(11.) c 4 an
24
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
28 th February 1889.] The Hon. E. P. Thesiger, c.b. {^Continued.
an audited return of the weekly pay-sheets every month when work was in pro-
gress to the Director of Navy Contracts, who, in his turn, forwarded them to
this office for custody. These returns (with the exception of those for the
months of February and April, during which time work was suspended) were
posted at Chatham on known dates, hut cannot be traced further, nor can I say
with whom the fault rests, beyond the fact that we liave no record of having
received them here, as there should have been had they come to hand. I have
had, however, brought from Chatham the original pay-sheets from which
these audited returns are collated, and forward them herewith. Those
for the month of March are absent, and in all probability they were
the ones which were stated by the master tailor as having been torn
up ; but inasmuch as we have documentary proof that its audited contents were
forwarded to London by the Colonel Commandant, 1 think Mr. Fraser
may be exonerated Irom any underhand intention in having destroyed them ;
the very fact of these pay-sheets having been audited and passed on by his
commanding officer might have seemed to him a sufficient reason for no longer
retaining them. I have had jmepared a list of the women who were employed
from January to September, thinking it might assist you in your researches.
You will perhaps observe that during February and April the work is noted as
being “suspended;” this mav have been the result (l) of a sufficiency of gar-
ments liaving been already made; or (2) that no more were required for the Navy ;
or (3) that the quantity of materials supplied had been u.sed up. If it will be
of any assistance to you, I shall be very pleased to send to you Mr. VV’hite, one
of my chief clerks, who, having gone over the returns, will be able to give you
very much information about them, and the system of work carried on at
Chatham ; and should it appear that any women have, apparently, lieen deprived
of work, he may l)e able to e.xplain, or put you in the way of getting informa-
tion as to how it has happened. Apologising for so long a letter, yours very truly,
Howa'^d S. Jones." After that Mr. Arnold White came to my office, and I
again pressed him to give me the names of these women, so that I might, if possi-
ble, obtain information as to the point that had been raised in the Committee,
and eventually he did so, on receiving a promise from me that I would not let
the names go any further. From the list of names which he then gave me I
have worked out, with the somewhat meagre material which I had in conse-
quence of the loss of the pay-sheets for March, and there being no work done in
February and April, the sums earned by these women, who were interviewed
by Mr. Arnold White or his agents, lor the month of January, and for May,
June, and July.
17.562. The months you asked for were February, March, April, May, June,
and July ?
Yes ; for three of those months the information was unobtainable for the
reasons explained in the letter I have just read.
17563. And what is the result r
I have drawn out the Return in this form {producing the Return), putting to
each woman the amount earned in the months I have named, but 1 have simply
called them in the list, which I propose to hand in, workwoman No. 1, No. 2,
and so on. If the Committee think it well, that can be printed. {The Return
is handed in. See Appendix B.) The general result does not seem to me to show
that there is anything in the allegation which was made, I think, by Mr. Braid.
I have just analysed the results this morning, and I find that though eight of
these workwomen received decreased amounts in the months succeeding
January, nine of them received increased amounts.
1 7564. When was the inquiry made by Mr. Arnold White ?
In April.
17565. You say that eight of them received a decreased amount of work,
comparing the period before and after the inquiry, but nine of them received
an increased amount r
That nine of them received an increased amount in one of those months.
May, June, and July, and eight received a decreased amount in all the three
months of May, June, and July.
17566. Earl
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
25
28?A February 1889.] The Hon. E. P. Thesiger, c.b. \_Contumed.
17566. Earl Brownlow.~\ Are they large decreases?
Tlie first case that I took seemed to me at first to be going to bear out the
contention of Mr. Braid; that is to say, in January this particular woman
earned 28 .y., in May she only earned 5 ^. 11 d., but in June she earned 155 . 10<^.,
and in July 26 s.
17567. Chairman.^ When was that evidence given of Mr. Braid ?
On the 6th of December.
17568. The months you are speaking of are the months preceding that ?
Yes, but succeeding the first inquiries of Mr. Arnold White.
17569. So that the fact of its being alleged in evidence that these women had
been deprived of work could have had no t ffect upon the increase ?
No.
17570. I gather fi'om you that, practically speaking, to all intents and
purposes the receipts of the women were the same after the inquiry by Mr.
Arnold White as before?
Yes, whereas some decreased others increased in the amount of their work.
17571. Do you propose to put that Return into the Appendix, giving
numerals instead of names?
Yes. There is only one case in which any woman has not received any
work after January, and she only received 6 s. 8 d in that month of January, so
that probably she was in very small employment. The other point I wished to
mention was that seven of the women whose names Mr. Arnold White gave me
do not appear at all on the list of women employed by the master tailor, which
was furnished me by General Jones.
17572. What is the date ?
This list includes all the months from January to September.
17573 - seven of the women examined by Mr. Arnold White are not on
the list at all ?
Seven of the women who were interviewed by Mr. Arnold White are not on
the list at all as workwomen.
17-74. They do not appear in that list before you?
No. That is the list compiled by General Jones; the heading is “List of
workwomen employed in Naval Work at the Royal Marine Barracks, Chatham,
showing the months they have been given such work since January last, inclu-
sive.”
17575- ^^ii^ only remark to be made upon that is, tliat, if that be the fact,
seven of these women who have been employed are not included there ?
They do not appear on that list. Of course the value of this return is very
much discounted by the fact that the months of February, March, and April
have no return for them.
17576- Is there anything further you desire to say ?
I would only like to add that I called upon General Jones yesterday, and told
him that his letters would be read to the Committee, and asked him if he wished
to be present on the occasion ; and I also asked him if he had anything further
to add to his former letters to me. He said he had not at the moment, but that
if anything occurred to him he would write ; and I have received this letter this
morning : “ Dear Mr. Thesiger, — 1 have made further inquiries from the
Department of the Director of Contracts, but, I am sorry to say, with no satis-
factory result ; they do not seem to be able to throw any light on the disposal
of the returns forwarded to that department by the Colonel Commandant,
Chatham. This is very much to be regretted, as the production of these returns
would have been of such material help to the Select Committee.”
Ordered^ That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next,
at Twelve o’clock.
( 11 .)
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( 27 )
Die Mar tis^ 5^ Martii, 1889.
LORDS PRESENT:
Duke of Norfolk.
Earl of Derby.
Viscount Gordon {Earl of Aberdeen').
Lord Foxford {Earl of Limerich ).
Lord Kenry {Earl of Dunraven and
Mount-Earl),
Lord Sandhurst.
Lord Monkswell.
Lord Basing.
LORD KENRY (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl), in the Chair.
Mr. RICHARD JUGGINS, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is
Examined, as follows :
^7577* Chairman.^ What is your business or trade ?
I am the Secretary of the Midland Counties Trades Federation, also of the Nut
and Bolt Makers Association.
17578. What is the Midland Counties Trades Federation ?
It is a combination of societies amalgamated together.
17579. Can you tell us what the societies are?
Chainmakers, nail-makers, rivet-makers, bolt-makers, anvil-makers, padlock-
makers —
17580. All these being societies connected with the manufacture of iron ?
17581. Have you worked in any of these trades yourself?
Yes.
1758-2. For how long ?
For over twenty years.
17583. Are you working now at all ?
No ; my official capacity is that I am the secretary of these societies.
17584. How long have you been secretary ?
Eighteen years of the nut and boltmakers ; of the others only three years.
i 7:')85. Can you give the Committee the number of members in these
societies ?
I can scarcely do that from memory ; they number altogether between 3,000
and 4,000 in the two societies.
17586. Then you can speak, I presume, both as to chain-making and nail-
making?
Exactly.
17587. What did you work at yourself when you were a workman ?
I worked at the bolt trade myself.
17588. I will ask you first some questions as to the chain-making. Can
(11.) D 2 you
Yes.
28
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March 1889.] Mr. J uqgixs. [Continued.
you tell the Committee in what districts the chain-inakin- is prineipallv
carried on ? i i j'
Cradley, Chadley Heath, Old Hill, hedell Hill, Nethertun, Dudley Wood and
numerous other small j)laces. ^ ’
175^9* These places are all comparatively close together, are they not.-
Yes.
17590. What do you suppose ihe area of country would be containine-
them ?
Perliaps about three or four miles.
17591. But is the chain-making principally carried on in such a small district
as that ?
Yes.
17592. Both large and small chains r
Yes:
W593* Hsve you any idea what the population engaged in that trade would
be in that district ?
Male and female, as near as I could tell if, would be about 2,000 to 3,000.
17594. Those would be persons engaged in chain-making ?
Yes.
W595- there any other industries carried on in the same district.-
Ironworks and collieries.
17596. And do these chain-makers also make nails?
No, that is a distinct trade.
17597. Do you know whetiser the population engaged in chain-making is
increasing or decreasing?
I believe increasing.
1750S. I suppose you do not know to what extent, do you ?
Not exactly.
I 7599. Have you any idea in your own mind ?
I have not.
17600. Perhaps you would tell us what ditferent kinds of chain are made
in the different localities which you mention ?
'1 here are the cable chain, the block chain, and the common chain.
17601. What is a block chain?
It is used in pulley blocks.
1760J. What are we to understand by a common chain ?
Chain of a commoner quality than that which I have just described.
1 7603. But used for what purposes ?
All sorts of common purposes abroad.
17604. Where would they be made?
Chadley Heath.
1760,-). Those would be all large chains, would they not?
No, small chains and large; the smaller chains principally made by females,
the larger chains made by the males
17606. What I want to find out from you is whether any particular kind of
chain is made in particular places, or whether all kinds are made generally,
throughout this distiiet you have mentioned?
Thei e are various qualities of chains made in the same district.
17607. I mean in one place, do they make these chains you have mentioned,
cable chains and common chains, and so on, entirely
The works are chiefly devoted to making large chains ; they do not usually
make
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
29
5th March 1889 .]
Mr. Juggins.
[^Continued.
make small chains in the large works. The cable chain is a trade by itself
distinct from the smaller sizes.
iy0o8. Is that confined to any particular spot r
The same district.
17609. Then I understand you that in that district you have spoken of all
kinds of chain are made ?
Yes. The cable chains are made in the large factories, not in the small
shops.
1761G, But there would be factories all over that district?
Where the large chains are made.
17611. And those factories would exist in these various villages you have
mentioned ?
Yes
17612. You said that you think the population is increasing; do you think
that the industry is increasing ?
I do.
17613. That is to say that more chain is made than formerly ?
Yes.
17614. Now the Committee would be glad to get from you a description of
the general w'ay in which this industry of chain making is carried on ?
Do you mean as to its manipulation?
17615. Ye?, as to its manipulation; as to the method of manufacture?
Of course each link is cut off separate from the bar.
17616. What kind of chain are you speaking of now ?
All finds of chain; they are all made in exactly the same way, unless it be
the very heavy cable chain ; there is a slight difference in those because those
links are bent by machinery, but not welded by machinery, but by hand; there
is no machinery that up to the present time has been adapted to that chain.
Every link must undergo its separate operation ; and the smaller chains are
chiefly made by women and girls in tlie district. 1'hey work excessively long
hours.
17617. Each link, you say, is made separately?
Yes.
1761S. In what condition does the operative obtain the iron out of which the
link is made ?
They obtain the iron from the master, or from the warehouse, and they
work this chain up and return it to the warehouse or employer for whom they
work.
17619. I want to find out from you how the work is made up ?
They work it up in their own small shops.
17620. But in what condition is the iron wlien they obtain it; is it in
bars ?
Yes, in bars or in rods.
17621. That is to say, in rods of a tliickness suitable to make a particular
kind of chain ?
Yes ; and from three to eight feet long.
17622. And they get those rods in bundles?
Yes.
17623. Then they have to cut the reds into lengths suitable for the links?
Yes.
176-24. How is that done ?
That is dime by heating the iroi;, cutting it off on what is commonly known
(IE) D3 as
30
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March \SSd.'\ Mr. Juggins. '^Continued.
as a cutter or hardy. The link is bent by the person making the chain, and
then each link is linked one into the other, and then v/elded on at the same
time, of course. I have specimens of the chain if it is necessary to show
them.
17625. I think we should be very glad to see them, if you will just show
them to the Committee, and explain what they are ?
This {producing a chain) is a small chain, what is commonly known as a dog-
chain. I have only brought the two extremes that are generally made by
females.
17626. Would this be made by women ?
Yes.
17627. "What is the largest size chain made by females ?
These chains are what is known as the common cart-horse back-band chain
{producing a specimen).
17628. How would this be described in the trade ?
As a back-band chain.
17620. Is that the largest size chain that is made by females ?
I believe so ; and very heavy indeed too.
1 7630. Then take, for instance, a chain like that; would that be made entirely
by one person ?
Except the swivel. In some cases it is all made by one woman, but not in
all cases. The women do not make the swivel ; some men make the chain and
the swivel.
17631. I understand that both men and women make that kind of chain
Yes.
17632. And the whole process is done by one person ; one person gets the
iron rod and cuts it with the cutter r
Yes.
17633. What kind of an instrument is the cutter ?
A sharp instrument.
17634. How is it used ?
It is generally put in what is commonly called the block or castings, and the
iron is laid at the top of it.
17635. And then it is struck by hand with a hammer ?
Yes.
17636. Is the iron hot ?
It is hot.
17637. Then the links are formed ; put together and welded ?
Yes!
17638. And the process is similar in all the smaller kinds of chain?
Exactly the same process.
17639. Do you know what proportion the female labour would bear to the
male labour in the making of chains of these kinds ?
I should think nearly one-half.
17640. May I take it that women work at all the chains except the cable
chains ?
Yes.
1 7641. Are young persons or children employed ?
Yes.
17642. What part of the work do they do?
They do the same as the ordinary females do, commencing on the smaller
sizes ; they generally commence on the dog-chain ; that is the smaller size.
17643. Do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
31
5 th March ISSd.l Mr. JuGGiNS. \_Continued,
17643. Do you mean that children will make chains f
Yes.
17644. The whole process, from beginning to end ?
Yes, the smaller ones.
17645. Earl of Limerich 7 \ At what age do they commenee ?
They formerly commenced, years ago, at about eight years of age ; but they
do not commence quite so early now.
17646. Chairman.^ Is it the case that the employment of children is
gradually dying out ; that it has been lessened of late years?
1 believe it is lessening.
1 7647. How do you account for that ?
From the lact of the School Hoard being established in the district of late
years.
17648. What proportion of the trade would you say was carried on in
factories ?
Not a very large proportion ; very small.
1 7649. Are all the cable chains made in factories ?
Yes.
17650. Any other kind of chain ?
Yes, a little smaller sizes ; but not to any extent.
1 765 1 . Then where is the rest of it made ; in what kind of workshops ?
Ill Siiiall domestic workships.
17652. What do you understand by a small domestic workshop?
A workshop attached to each house.
17653. Attached to each dwelling-house ?
Yes.
17654. Earl of Derby So that, in fact, thev work at home?
Yes.
17655. Chairman.'] Would you divide the work into work that is done in
factories and work that is done in domestic workshops ?
Yes.
17656. You mean that all the workshops are domestic workshons ?
Yes.
17657. Do you mean by that that all the persons working in the workshop
are members of the same family ?
No.
17658. Other persons are employed ?
Yes.
1 7659. Then you would draw a distinction between a domestic workshop and
a family workshop ?
Yes.
1 7660. Is it the case that very frequently a whole family work in one work-
shop, and employ nobody else ?
I believe it is.
17661. What is the general rule, do you know?
I can scarcely tell you that.
17662. How many people are generally employed in these workshops ?
From about four to eight.
17663. Then does the shop generally belong to the owner of the house ?
Yes.
(11.) D4
17664. It
32
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March 1889.] Mr. Juggins. \^Continued
17664, It is let with the house, I presume r
Yes.
17665. And is situated just at the back of the house?
Yes.
1 "^666. Then does the occupier of the liouse and shop employ people to work
for him, or does he let a portion of the shop, or how is it managed ?
In some cases there is so much charged fur the standing in the small shops
where they are not all one family, and the owner of the shop charges rent to
those who work for him, who do not belong to his family.
17667. We will suppose a case of a shop with eight people say; there is a
man and his uife and two children, and four others who are not members of the
family ; could you describe such a shop to the Committee ; how is the shop
arranged ?
It is arranged with blocks and fires, in the same way as it would be arranged
in factories, only on a smaller scale.
17668. You must bear in mind that the Committee do not know how these
shops or factories are constituted, and when you speak of blocks and stands that
conveys very little meaning ; we want to understand what you mean by block
or stand ?
I mean that there is what is called the casting or anvil ; that your Lordships
will perfectly understand ; there is a stone block, or something as a substitute
for a stone block under that; there is a fire or hearth built capable of holding
a certain quantity of breeze.
1 7669. That is fuel, is it not ?
Yes ; and from this fire, in some.cases, two or three work ; in other cases
only one.
17670. 1 hen when you speak of a stand you mean the hearth and the
.appliances?
Yes.
17671. Which would sometimes accommodate one person, and sometimes
two or three ?
Yes.
17672. Do you mean that one person can blow the bellows, and do all the
work ?
, They often get someone to blow the bellows for them.
17673. But you said just now that the hearth would sometimes accommodate
one person ; do you mean that one person would blow the bellows and do the
work ?
No, he would hire someone to blow the bellows.
1767a. Then, in such a case as I am supposing, a man and his wife and
two children, we will say, they could occupy, I suppose, two hearths pro-
bably?
Ye.s.
17675. And then there would be four other persons who might occupy say
two more ?
Yes.
1 767(1. And the occupier of the shop would let those stands out for so
much ?
Yes.
1 7677. For so much a week ?
Yes. '
176; 8. What is the ordinary rate ?
1 do not think I can exactly tell you that because it varies; in some cases it
is charo-ed on the work done, a rent being made from each stall.
" 17679* Sometimes
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
33
5th March 1889 .]
Mr. Juggins.
{^Continued.
17679. Sometimes they charge according to the amount of work done ?
Yes.
17680. And sometimes a rent; so much a week?
Yes.
17681. If all the persons not members of the family were employed directly
by the owner, that would bring the shop within the scope of the Factory and
Workshops Act, would it not ?
As a rule, 'I believe they are employed by the occupier, because the occupier
of the shop gets the orders for these others that are not members of the
family.
1 768-2. That is not an answer to my question ; I asked you, if all the persons
working were employed directly by the occupier of the shop, would not that
bring- the shop within the scope of the Factory Act r
Yes, I think it would.
17683. Whereas if the other persons are not employed by him directly, hut
are paying rent, that would prevent its coming under the Factory Act, would it
not ?
I cannot understand that ; in fact I am not prepared to answer it ; 1 do not
think it would really.
17684. You do not know whether it would make any difference or not r
No.
17685. Earl of Limerick.^ You say that the owner of the shop takes out the
wmrk, and that that constitutes him the master ?
Yes.
17686. Chairman.'] As a rule, how do the people get their material ?
Tlie owner of the shop, as a rule, takes out the work from the factor or master,
and then superintends it in his shop. There is a certain amount of profit to
him upon the work done by those people not members of his family. Then he
is responsible for tlie work delivered to the employer or factor from whom he
has received the iron.
17687. The master of the shop will get the iron from the employer, and he
is responsible for returning the proper weight of chain ?
Yes.
17688. But that would not be the case where people hired the stand, and
took the work on their own responsibility?
No. The hiring of the stand is only a very small proportion.
17689. In that case would the hirer of the stand get the material himself,
and himself return the chain?
Yes.
17690. It would notin that case be done through the owner of the shoo ?
No. ^
17691. All the chains in the district are made by hand ?
Yes.
17692. No chain is made by machinery ?
No.
17693. Nowhere?
No.
17694. Earl of ZmcnH-.] I think you said some of the cable chains were
cut by machinery ?
Yes, bent and cut, because they are very heavy.
(11 ) E *7695. Chairman.^^ D(»
34
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
bth March 1889,] Mr. JUGGiNS. {^Continued.
17695. Chairman.'\ Do you know, as a matter of fact, whether these work-
shops you speak of are visited by Inspectors under the Factory and Workshops
Act ?
Occasionally ; they are too numerous to be visited frequently.
17696. But you think that they have a right to inspect them ?
They do inspect them.
17697, Then I gather from you that all the workshops are practically of the
same description ?
Exactly,
1 7698, Although in some all the people working may be members of the
same family, w iiereas in other cases they may not i*
Exactly so,
17699. And you think that the cases where all the workers are members of
the same family are subject to inspection r
I cannot answer that.
17700. How is the iron given out, by weight ?
Yes.
17701. So much weight of iron for the purpose of making a particular
description of cliain r
Yes,
17702. And then, I presume, so much weight of chain has got to be
returned ?
Y es.
17703. Do you know what allowance is made for the weight by the
manufacturer ?
About eight lbs. to the cwt.
17704. I suppose that would vary, would it not, according to the different
classes of chains ?
No.
17705. Do you consider that that allowance is fair ?
Yes.
17706. 1 hat is to say, that the operatives are enabled to return the proper
weight of chain out of the amount of material they are given r
Yes ; when it is economically worked. Sometimes men will waste more than
others.
17707. Will a man who vvorks very economically be able to save any
material out of it ?
No.
17708. Do the operatives always get the proper quality of material; the proper
size of iron ?
They get the proper size, but not the proper quality.
17709. Just explain that a little more?
Tliey may get the proper size of the iron. 1 should have said here that they
do not always get the proper size, because the prices are regulated in proportion
to the sizes, and the sizes are almost alike ; there is very little difference
between some of the sizes ; and sometimes the master for the purpose of
reducing the price will substitute another size, and call it by a different name,
or a different size, so as to pay' a reduced rate.
17710. I do not quite understand. You mean that the sizes of different
kinds of chain are so much alike that there is very little difference between
them 1
There is very little difference ; but there is a difference in the price ; I
mean in the wages for making it.
17711- The
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
35
5th March 1889. j Mr. Juggins. \_Cont'uiued.
17711. The price given to the operatives, you mean?
Yes.
17712. Then do I understand you that the master obtains one particular size
of chain, but calls it by another name ; another size ?
Yes.
1 7713. In order to pay less for it ?
Yes.
17714. ^^h<.'n the operative goes for his material, he gets a certain weight of
iron-rod of a certain size ?
Yes.
17715. Square rods, I suppose?
Round rods.
17716. Is he told that he is to bring back a certain weight, and a certain
kind and quality of chain ?
Yes.
17717. I understand from you that the iron given to him is not the proper
iron to make the quality of chain that he has to bring back r
Yes, in some cases that is so.
17718. Supposing you give me the name of any particular kind of chain you
like, that we may understand eacli other more clearly ; what will you call it ?
Chains are ordered of special sizes and special qualities of iron.
17719. Give me the name of any particular size; what do you call it ?
You can take any size you like.
1 7720. Will you give me one and give me the name of it ?
They go by sizes, 5 - 16 th, 3 - 8 ths, half-inch, and so on up to an inch or
two inches.
17721. Take ‘‘ half-inch ” ; what does half-inch mean ?
Half-inch would mean half-an-inch in diameter. In many cases that chain
has to stand a test ; and if there is a f liling in the iron, as there is sometimes,
the chain is rejected simply because of the inferiority of the iron, not because
of the workmanship.
17722. What does a half-inch mean ; a half-inch diameter of the chain ?
A half-inch diameter of the iron.
17723. When it is made ?
Yes.
17724. That vvoidd be a large size, I suppose ?
That would be a medium size.
17725. What would this be {pointing to a chain on the table) ?
It would be 3 - 8 ths, scarcely 3 - 8 ths.
17726. We will take 3 - 8 ths as an example; what I want to lind out from
you is whether when the operative has to return a certain weight of 3 - 8 ths chain
it happens occasionally that the material given out to him is not suitable to
make that 3 - 8 ths chain r
Yes.
17727. What remedy has the operative got in such a case?
There is simply a dispute between the employer and the operative. In many
cases such things have been brought i>efore the magistrate and been settled
there.
17728. Do you mean that there would be a. dispute before the men take it
away, or do you mean this : that the operative when he gets back to his shop
(11.) E2 " finds.
36
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
^th March 1889.] Mr. Juggins. {Continued.
finds himsflf in the possession of material not suited to make the article which
he has to bring back ?
Yes, that is what I mean.
177--9- Then in that case lie is not able to return the article he has under-
taken to make ?
No.
« 7730* Earl of Derby ^ Then is not the employer the loser by that ?
_ The employer is not the loser, because he saddles the man with the responsi-
bility, and in many cases, as I have already stated, it has been decided in the
police court as to who is in fault, the man or the master.
17731- CliairmanP^ Would the workman under those circumstances be
obliged to get other material ?
The dispute arises often from the employer’s side, as a complaint of work-
manship, when really it is a question of the quality of the iron ; that is where
the dispute comes in.
17732. The workman brings back the chain, and is told, “ This is not what
I wanted ” ?
Yes.
_ 1/733- And then he says, “That is not my fault ; if is your fault for not
giving me the proper material ” ?
Yes.
17734- It does not happen that the workman purchases other material for
himself?
Not very often.
17735- Or exchanges the material ?
No.
I 7736. Then I understand you to say also that the workman having returned
the proper chain, 3-8ths, or whatever you like to call it, the master says it is
not 3-8ths, but something a little smaller, and only pays for it accordingly ?
Yes.
17737. What is the remedy of the operative in that case ?
The remedy is the same as I have already repeated, to sue lor it before the
magistrate.
17738. How can the workman tell whether the chain is 3-8ths or not ?
There is a gauge, what is called a slide gauge, which is understood by all
the tiade, by which the iron is measured.
17739- What kind of an instrument is that ?
An instrument that opens and closes ; but the cases to which I refer more
particularly are cases where the numbers are not actually 16ths, or 8ths, but
where it comes to iSo. 1 , 2, 3, 4, or 5, so that the difference is very slight, and
yet there is a difference in the price ; so that in some cases No. 2 will be given out
for No. 3 ; supposing it made that much difference in the reduction of the
wages it will be given out to the operative as No. 2, when it should be called
No. 3. Many disputes have arisen on that point.
17740. What kind of chains are numbered ?
They begin with the smaller numbers for the smaller sizes.
17741. Is No. 1 very small ?
Yes.
1 7742. And how far up do they get ?
They go up till they get into the ICths.
17743. Are these numbered chains measured also ?
Yes.
17744. Has
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
37
5th March Mr. JuGGiNS. {^Continued.
17744. Has the workman got a measure for himself?
In some cases they have ; they have to provide that for themselves.
17745. Does he not see them measured by the master ?
No, the iron is generally given out to him, and he takes it to his domestic
workshop to manufacture the chain, and then l eturns it ; and in many cases
there comes in the dispute ; he makes it up as what he believes to be a certain
number, and when he takes it back of course the master says it is not that
number.
17746. But I mean does not the workman see it measured by the master?
No.
1 7747. Duke of Norfolk.'] He could do so if he wished, could he not ?
It is just at the option of the employer.
17748. But when the workman accepts the iron surely he is able to have it
measured before he takes it away, is he not?
If he chooses to do so.
I 7749. The master could not object to measure it ?
No.
17750. The workman accepts it without having it measured on his own
responsibility r
Yes.
17751. Chairman.] Do I understand that the workman takes iron to make
No. 3; and when he brings it back again, having made No. 3 in his opinion,
the master says he has only made No. 2, and pays him accordingly ?
Yes.
1775 2. Earl of Derby.] Has he not the means of measuring for liimself ?
Only by providing the gauge to which I have referred.
17753 Duke of Norfolk.] He can apply to have it measured before he
accepts the iron, and not only have it measured when he brings it back manu-
factured ?
Yes.
17754. Chairman.] Does the workman get the material from the master
direct ?
Yes.
17755. No intervention of any middleman takes place?
Only the owner of the domestic workshop to which 1 have referred is the
middleman.
1 7756. And it would only be in cases where jiersons, not members of the
family, were working in the workshop that he would be a middleman ?
Yes.
17757. But that is the generality of cases ?
Yes, that is the generality.
17758. Have you got any list of prices that are paid for these various
chains ?
Recently there has been established a list of prices.
17759. Have you got it here ?
I have not.
1 7760. What do you mean by “ recently ?
During the past two or three years ; since the association has been estab-
lished ; formerly there was no association.
17761. You could let us have that?
1 have no doubt that some of my friends who will be here to-morrow will be
in possession of that list ?
(ID) E3 17762. What
38
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March 1889.] Mr. Juggins. {Continued.
17762. What I wanted to get from \'oii, if you could give me the informa-
tion, is to compare the price paid by the master to the occupier of the shop, and
the price paid ly the occupier of the siiop to the people working in the shop;
could you do that ?
The price paid by the master and the price paid by the occupier of the shop
are two different prices.
17763. I want to get at the difference; taking any size or quality of chain
that you like, can you give me the price that is paid by the master for
that :
The price paid in the larger factories, say for half-inch chains, that is a
medium size, would be at least 20 per cent, more than was paid in the small
shops by the middleman.
17764. Then the middleman, that is to say, the occupier of a shop, would
make a profit of 20 per cent, in that case ?
Yes.
17765. Besides that, does he charge rent for the use of the shop '!
No ; that is on the work, as 1 stated before.
1 7766. His whole profit would consist of that, you mean ?
Yes.
I 7767. And would he supply the breeze and everything else necessary ?
Yes. I only give that proportion as an illustration; I do not go exactly into
detail and say what his real profit would be.
17768. But what I want to get from you if I can is what his real profit
is ?
That is difficult to say, because you see they do not always tell you ; that is a
private matter for themselves.
17769. That is a private matter between them and the men working for
them r
Yes.
17770. Do they get their iron out every day ?
Sometimes ; once a week generally.
1 7771. What is the usual day r
Monday morning.
17772. And when do they take it back ; on Saturday r
On Saturday.
1-773. And some time on Monday, 1 suppose, is occupied in waiting for the
material r
Yes.
17774. Does every man fetch his own ?
No, in many cases it is sent by the employer in his cart or team, for which
the workman is charged.
17775. Do you mean by the employer the person at the factory r
Yes ; and it is also fetched from him when it is complete, if it is heavy chain
especially ; but in each case the employer charges a certain amount for the use
of the horse and cart, and carting that iron to the workshop and the chain
from the workshop to the employer. '
1 7776. Is that the case generally with the heavier kinds ot chain :
The chain that is made in the small shops. That is unnecessary in large
factories.
17-77. Df course: I am talking of the domestic shops now; that is
generallv the case with the heavier chains made in those shops ?
Yes.
1777«- Is
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
39
bth March Mr. JuGGiNS. \Cotdinued.
17778. Is it geiKTMliy the case with the smaller chains?
Yes.
17779. The usual custom is for the factor, the master, to send out the
material and gather up the manufactured article ?
Yes.
17780. Charging so mud) for doing so ?
Yes.
1 7781. He takes off so innch, I suppose, from the price paid ?
Yes.
17782. Do you know what they ci)arge for it ?
They charge various amounts ; in some cases they charge as much as 2 .s. 6 d.
a ton up to 5 s.
17783. Do these large masters and factors have warehouses in the different
villages ?
Yes.
17784. And then the iron would be given out from those warehouses?
Yes.
17783. And the chains brought back to them?
Yes.
17780, Who would be in charge of these svarehouses ; foremen, or what?
Foremen or manago s to look after the warehouse in the interests of the em-
ployer or factor.
17787. Would the foremen have anything to do with settling the price paid ?
No.
17788. His business would merely be to send out the iron and fetch back the
chain ?
Yes.
17789. Then there would be no possibility of any unfairness on the part of
the foreman ?
Not that lam aware of.
17790. I think you said just now that it was customary for the operatives to
hire somebody to do the blowing for them ?
Yes.
17791. Are they generally girls or females ?
They are generally girls.
17792. Yy, where there are about two, in that
case they would fetch their own iron, rather than wait for it ; it would not
occupy so very long.
17815. And, of necessity, they cannot work a full day on Monday or Satur-
day ?
Not exactly a full day, but there is not so much time lost.
17816. And
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
41
5th March Mr. Juggins. [Continued.
i)Si(). And on the other days of the week, they would work 12 to 14
liours ?
Yes.
17817. And how about the women ?
Thev work the same hours.
17 •'^18. Twelve or 14 hours?
Yes.
17819. What interv.'ds do they have for meals and rest ?
An hour for dinner, half an hour for breakfast ; in some cases they take half
half an-hour for tea at 5 o’clock.
17820. Do you mean that it is the fact, to your knowledge, that women work
12 or 14 houis, with two hours out for meals?
Yes.
17821. In these workshops which you say are subject to the inspection of the
inspectors ?
Yes.
17822. And you say that is customary ?
Yes.
17823. Do the young persons and children vvork the same hours ?
They generally do.
17824. Do you mean that the children would be working 12 or 14 hours ?
Yes.
17825. And young women under 18 years of age ?
Yes.
17826. Do yon know whether they have been interfered with in many cases
by the Factory Inspector?
They have in a few cases only.
17827. I do not think I asked you whether the price has been going up or
going down in the chain trade of late years?
Recently it has gone up a little.
17828. What has been the general tendency in your experience ?
Until very recently the tendency has been ilownwards.
17829. I think you said that you had had an experience of 18 years?
Yes.
17830. Is tlie price paid now to the operative as good as it was 18 years
ago?
I could scarcely answer that from memory.
17831. Do you know anything about the selling price of the chain :
No.
17832. The “ breeze ” I think you said is the fuel ?
Yes.
17833. Where do the operatives get it from?
It is supplied as a rule by the employer to the operatives, and charged to
them.
17S34. Charged against their account, I suppose ?
Yes.
17835. Do they have to fetch that ?
It is generally brought by the employer’s horse, in a large cart generally
used tor that purpose.
17836. Are they obliged to buy it from the employer?
(11.) F I do
42
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March 1869.] Mr. JuGGiNS. \_Continued.
I do not know that there is any compulsion, but tlieie is just this, that if
they do not buy it from the employer very often they do not get any work.
17837. Do you mean that the employer charges them more for it tlian they
could buy it for elsewhere ?
Yes.
17838. Do you know what the employer charges for it:
1 have known cases where they have charged 40 per cent, more than the
same fuel could be purchased for from other sources.
17839. Do you mean that they have charged 40 per cent, more tlian it could
be delivered for from other sources ?
Yes.
17840. Has this always been the case in the trade ?
More or less.
17841. Is it less or more now than it used to be ?
Less, I think.
17R42. It is dying out„ you think ?
Yes.
1 7843. Do you know what kind of chain is exported r
All kinds of chain are exported.
17844. I am putting on one side altogether the cable chain made in factories ;
and I am speaking of the chain made in these domestic shops that you speak
of; are all kinds of that chain exported ?
Yes.
17845. Is the chain tested in any way ?
There is test-chain made, and chain made not for test; it is the commoner
chain that is made not for test.
17846. I suppose the very small chain, even of the best qualities, would not
be tested, would it ?
No.
17847. What kind of chain would be tested?
Block chain would be tested ; and, of course, cable chain would be
tested.
17848. I understand that none of this cable chain is made in domestic
works! lops ?
No.
17849. Do you know who the testing is done by r
Done by Lloyd’s.
17850. Where?
They have testing-places in the district, and nearly all the larger employers
have tests of their own before they are sent to Lloyd’s, and they test them before
they go out.
17851. Are you aware whether chain is ever sold as tested, without being
tested ?
No ; I am not aware.
17852. How is it marked when it is tested?
It is certified to by the person who tests it ; there is a written guarantee that
the chain is tested ; but in some cases the makers have their own private marks.
Messrs, d angie, I helieve, for example, make the whole of their chain.
17853. If 1 buy a certain quantity of chain which is tested, does that mean
that it is tested to bear a certain strain ?
Yes.
17854. How
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
43
5lh March 1889.] Mr. JugginS. {Continued.
17854. How am I to know whether it has been tested or not ?
You get a written guarantee that it lias been tested.
17855. From the master ?
Yes.
17856. Suppose tliat that is incorrect?
It may possibly be ; I could not say.
17857. The chain itself f mean, bears no mark?
No.
17858. Do we import any chains from abroad do yon know ?
Very few indeed ; some few dog chains are imported I think of the common
class, but not very many.
17859. You would not say that foreign competition had any effect on the
trade ?
No.
17860. Neither has machinerv had any, I think you said ?
No.
17861. You were not able to tell me what were the exact prices paid to the
operatives ; have you any idea wliat they generally earn ?
rhe wages earned y’ou mean? The women will earn from 4 s. to 6 5. per
week on tlie common chain, and the men will earn from 10 s. to 12 5. or 14 s.
per week.
17862. On the common chain?
Y es.
17863. Earl of Derby. ~\ is that for the week of 14 hours a day during four
days that you speak of?
Yes.
1 7864. And something less on the other two ^
Yes.
17865. Caairman.^ How many hours a week ?
As a rule they count upon working about 60 hours per week ; in some cases
more.
17866. Men and women and children, young persons, and all ?
Yes.
17867. Men, you say, will earn from 10 to 12 s. or 14 s. per week?
Yes, according to the skill and ability of the person.
17868, And the women 4 s. to 6 s. ?
Yes,
17869. And the young persons?
About the same as the women.
17870. And the children ?
Children from about 4 5. to 6 s.
17871. Duke of Noi'folk.'] Children earning as much as the women ?
Yes.
17872. Chairman.'\ That is the common chain. Does that comprise the
generality of work that is done in these shops ?
Yes.
17873, I suppose some people making a belter quality of chain would earn
more ?
Yes, those who make a better quality of chain would earn a little more, but
not much.
(11.) E 2
17874. And
44
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March 1889.] Mr. Juggins. \_Contmued.
17874. And some who make an inferior quality would earn less?
Yes.
17 *^ 75 - The wages that you have given us we are to take as about the
average ?
Yes.
17876. How many people would work in what you call a large workshop ?
About ten.
17877. And how many in a small one ; two?
Two ; it varies Irom two to ten.
17878. Js there plenty of room in the workshops ?
No.
17879. What do you eomplain of in that respect r
They are very low shops ; ill-ventilated and very unsanitary.
17880. In what way are they unsanitary ?
There is no drain or anything of that kind to take away the refuse ; in many
cases the shops are surrounded by water, or a moat ; and sometimes, 1 have
witnessed it myself, to be as green as possible. To bear out my statement, you
have only to refer to Mr. Burnett’s report, who has witnessed the same
thing.
17881. You say that the workshops are too low ?
Yes, and too crowded.
17882. That would refer, would it not, rather to the large ones, than to the
small ones ?
Yes.
17883. Should you say that in the generality of shojis employing, say six,
eight, or ten jjeople, there is not sufficient room ?
Yes.
17884. Do you know whether there have been many cases of interference on
the part of the sanitary inspectors :
No, I do not know that there have ; I have no recollection of any.
17885. You have no recollection of a case where there has been any inter-
ference ?
None.
17886. But I suppose the sanitary inspectors inspect these places, do they
not ?
They do so very seldom. There is a fearful epidemic of typhoid fever now,
and has been for some time in the neighbourhood.
17887. To what do you attribute that?
To the bad sanitary condition of the district.
17888. Is nut that supposed to be due to a subsidence in the churchyards,
and to contamination of the wells; it has been attributed to that, has it not?
I am not certain.
17889. Do you know whether complaints are made by the occupiers of
these shops to the sanitary authorities ?
I do not know whether complaint has been made to the sanitary autho-
rities, but they have constantly complained to the landlords.
17890. x\nd the landlord does nothing?
No.
17891. When you speak of the landlord, does each house generally belong
to some individual landlord, or do the they own several houses ?
I'hey own several houses.
17892. What
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
45
5th March ISdidJ] Mr. JuGGiNS. \_Continvcd.
1/892. What would be the general size of the property that these landlords
would hold ?
A small landlord would be the owner of perhaps two, or perhaps of ten
houses; and in some eases more than that.
17893. But generally speaking the property would be about that size ?
Yes.
17804. Have they been in the trade generallv themselves?
Yes.^
i 7 8()5. They have made some money and bought houses?
Yes.'^
17896. Do you know at all what rent is paid for a dwelling-house and shop
say a small shop ?
From 3 .9. to 3 s. 6 d. per week.
17897. What does each house consist of?
Of two rooms downstairs and two up, about eight feet square, probably in
front ; and in the back is a kind of kitchen which they would use as a brew-
house or washhouse.
17898. What does the landlord provide in the shop?
Fie provides nothing at all besides the shop.
17899. Nothing but the bare w'alls ?
No ; all the tools are provided by the man who occupies the house.
17900. What are the walls of the shops generally composed of?
Bricks.
17901. And the roofs?
Tiles, as a rule.
17902- How are they lighted : by windows?
Yes, open windows.
17903. Does not the landlord provide the hearth ?
’I’es, that is generally provided with the shop.
17904. Does ho provide the bellows ?
No, that is provided by the occupier.
17905. How do they take these houses?
Weekly, as a rule.
1790G. And you say that the occupiers frequently complain to the land-
lords ?
Yes.
17907. And the landlords do nothing ?
They do nothing.
1 7908. Do you suppose that there is much com])e>ition to get houses ?
Not now ; if there is, it is owing to the subsidence that has rendered a
number of the houses void or dangerous.
17909. I mean, if a man threaiened to leave a house if a landlord did not put
the shop into a pi o[ier condition, would he have any difficulty in getting another
house ?
I believe he would.
17910. Why? on account of their not being sufficient house accommo-
dation ?
Of course they do not build houses with shops unless the shops are
required.
1 79^ F You think that the accoraraodatioii is only about equal to the demand
for it ?
I do.
(IF) F3
17912. Earl
46
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March 1889.]
Mr. Juggins.
[ Continued.
17912. Earl oi Derby ^ But, I suppose, if there was an increased demand, it
would be somebody’s interest to supply that demand, would it not?
Yes.
^ 7913 ' Therefore, if there were a demand some more shops would come?
Yes.
\ 79 ' 4 - Chairman.'] And you think that these shops are so over-crowded as to
be injurious to health?
I do.
17915. That would he contrary to the Act would it not if it were so ?
Yes.
17916. I forget whether I asked you whether tlie rate of wages that you
mentioned to us was larger or less than founerly ?
It is a little larger than this last year or so ; there is a slight tendenc' to
increase.
1 791 7 - ^^ut generally it is not so large as it was w’ithin your ri'collection ?
I do not think so.
17918. You must know that, do not you ?
I could not go hack to 18 years, not in my own personal knowledge.
17919. 1 mean is it the complaint in the trade that the wages have gone
down ?
No, the wages are higher than they were even five years ago.
17920. Then I am to gather from you that what you principally complain
of in the pretent condition of the trade is the unsanitary condition of the work-
shops ?
We complain ol the domestic workshops altogether.
17921. But you object to there being such things as domestic workshops?
We do.
17922. But that would be on the ground, would it not, that they are in an
unsanitary condition ?
It would be 0.1 the ground that the competition is more fierce from these
domestic workshops than it is in factories ; better jirices are paid in factories
than in domestic workshops,
17923. I liavc not asked you any questions about factories at all yet ; I will
now ask you one or two qnes ions about them. I gather from you that the
cable chain i.rincipally is made in factories?
Yes.
I 7924. What sort of size factories are they ?
Large factories to accommodate from 20 to 30 and 40 and 50 people.
1 7925. In what villages would they be situated ?
In the same neighbourhood.
17926. Do they make any other kind of chain in the factories?
No.
17927. Only cable chain of various sizes ?
Yes, cable chain of various sizes. They make rigging chains, I may men-
tion.
1 7928. Is that chains for rigging ?
Yes, ship chains.
17929. And the wages earned are much hitiher?
Yes ; the shops are better ventilated ; and they are more sanitary.
17930. And 1 understand you that to the extent of 30 or 40 or more people
will be working in the same room ?
No.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
4 /
5th March JMr. JuGGiNS. {^Continued.
No, there are different shops on the same ground ; 10 to 20 would work in
one shop.
17931. How is this cable chain made r
Exactl}^ in the samo way that the other is made ; cut off first, bent, and then
welded each link by itself. It takes three men, and four men in some cases, to
make a cable chain.
1793J, How many men would be employed on a large size c ible chain ?
1 suppose not more than one-third of the trade.
17033. But how many men would be employed in making tlie large size ?
T hey work from one up to three and four.
17934. alone make the largest size ?
No, it requires two or three to make the largest size; that is the foreman
and strikers ; it lequires two or three strikers in addition to the chain makers to
make the largest size.
17935, What would the cable chain maker earn ?
The cable chainmaker woidd earn from 30 s. to 2 1 . per week ; I mean the
large chainmaker, not the smaller chainmaker.
17936. You mean the operative making the laige sized cable chain in the
factorv ?
Yes.
17937. Would he pay the strikers?
He would get that amount independent of the strikers ; the strikers’ wages
wmuld be counted into his.
j 7038. What w ould he earn altogether ?
According to the number of men he had, one, two, or three, in proportion to
the size chain he was making.
17939. But is he not paid by the quantity of chain he makes ?
Yes, he is paid by the cwt.
17940. Do you know what the prices are ?
I could not tell you from memory the prices.
17941. And I suppose he would employ two, three, or four strikers, accord-
ing to his own skill ?
Yes, and according to the size of the chain. That is very heavy work
indeed ; you cannot work many hours at it.
17942. And, I presume, less skilful men would make less, and so on 1
Yes, some of them down as low as 24 s.
17943. Would you say tlsat the sanitary conditions in these factories are all
that is right ?
All that could he desired. T hey w'elcome the Factory Inspector, and the
factories are tolerably well inspected ; i>i fact there is not so much need for
inspection in the factories as there is in the domestic workshops because they
are carried on under a better system.
17944. Do you think thai in the domestic workshops the people are satisfied
with the rate of wages that they can earn ?
No. They are not worse than they used to be, but they complain that they
are not good enough ; they cannot make a living on them.
17945. Will you tell me why yon object to this system of domestic work-
sh(jps, and think if it were done away the rate of wages would be better ?
If you will accept the statement from me, in as few words as I can put it, I
will give ray reasons.
17946, Certainly?
With regard to the domestic workshops, as at present constituted, there is
the greatest amount of competition in them, arising from the operatives them-
(11.) F 4 selves ;
48
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
6th March 1889.] Mr. JuGGiXS. {^Continued.
selves ; in many cases fostered and brouiiht on by the employers. For example,
when one employ^ IVom a small workshop goes to the merchant or the factory
for iron he is often the subject of temptation to work for less than the list
price, and this comes about from the fact that he must either work for less or
have no work, because his next door neighbour is working for less ; so that one
man is pitted against the other in the shape of competition ; and to take work
of course they are often lead to believe that reductions are imposed, when in
reality no reductions have taken place, bringing down the prices. Thus the
competition is greater amongst the domestie workshops than it is in factories.
It is not at all carried on in factories, but is carried on to an alarming extent in
the domestic workshops.
I 7947. And you think that if the same number of people that are working
in these domestic workshops worked together in large bodies in factories they
would not compete one against the other to the extent that they now do :
No, 1 think they would not.
17948. 'fhe competition, as I understand you, in your opinion, is betw^een
the occupiers of the shops one against the other :
Yes.
I 7949. That is to say, that a statement of prices having been fixed upon, one
occupier of a shop, in order to got work, will make the article for a little beloiv
the trade statement of prices?
Yes ; he is often asked by the employer himself to make it for less, or there
is no work for him if he docs not ; and when his next door neighbour is at
work while he is out of w'ork of course he is tempted to accept the reduction
in order to get w ork.
17950. And then he having taken it at a little less, his neighbour is com-
pelled to take it for a little less still?
Yes.
17951. And so they compete one against anotlier, and cut dowm the
prices ?
Yes; and it is a very common practice in the trade.
1 7952. And you think that that ivould be done away with if people all worked
together ?
Yes.
17953. Karl of Derby ^ You do not deny tiieir right to bid one against another
in that way, do you ?
Oh, no.
17954. Chairman.^ Are they mostly members of your society, these chain-
makers, who are occupiers of shops ?
The society is very young; it is only about two years old ; so that we have
not been able to gatlier in all these people at present.
17955. Have you got many of them?
I suppose about half of them.
17956. There have been a great many attempts, have there not, to keep up
the rate of prices r
Yes.
17957. Have there been many strikes ?
Yes, many strikes.
17958. But have they generally failed or suceeded?
They have generally failed.
17959. Owing to what cause ?
No organisation among the operatives. The better class of the employers
are anxious that the society should succeed, and in many cases they are anxious
of course, that the domestic workshop system should be abolished.
17960. Then
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
49
5th March 1889 .]
Mr. Juggins.
[ Continued.
17960. Then if the employers are anxious that the system should be abolished,
I presume it is the operatives who prefer it ?
I do not say all the employers ; I say a few of the better class of employers ;
the majority is on the other side.
17961. Do you think that the operatives themselves would prefer working
in factories to domestic workshops ?
Yes, I do.
17962. Do you think that the independence of a man working in his own
shop, working when he pleases and as he likes, is not a temptation to him to
stick to that system ?
It is a temptation to an unprincipled man.
17963. Why do you call him an unprincipled man ?
If he wants to ruin the price for his neighbour he must be an unprinciphd
man.
17964. But in your opinion, the generality of the operatives would be as con-
tent to work in factories as in a domestic workshop ?
Yes, now. I do not believe they would years ago, but I believe they would
now.
17965. With regard to these employers you mentioned opposed to the system
of domestic workshops, have they made any attempt to start factories instead ?
Yes, they have large factories of their own.
17966. But I suppose they buy also from the domestic workshops r
Yes, they do buy from them.
1 7967. Then am 1 to understand from you that the principal remedy, in your
opinion, lies in the abolition, by some means or other, of the whole system of
working in domestic or familv workshops ?
Yes.
17968. Have you got in your mind any way in which you think that could
be done ?
The only way that I think it could be done is by a system of co-opera-
tion.
I 7969. Among the operatives ?
Among the operatives, assisted by the monied classes.
17970. You do not think that anything in the way of legislation is advis-
able ?
I do.
17971. In what direction ?
I think every workshop should be compelled to work only the same number
of hours as factories, and that every workshop should be under the same rules ;
that it should commence and close at the same hour.
17972. You would include in that a shop where nobody was working except
members of the same family ?
I would include a shop where anybody worked.
17973* You think they should all be put under the same regulations as a
factory ?
Yes, otherwise it would be unfair competition among the operatives them-
selves, and lead to a breach of the law.
17974. And do you think that such legislation would have the effect of kill-
ing this system of domestic workshops and sending the work to factories ?
I do to a great extent. It would go a long way to remedy the evil.
17975. 1 presume if your ideas were carried out, and this competition was
checked in the way you have mentioned, the cost of the chain would be con-
siderably increased, would it not ?
The wages would be increased.
( 11 .)
G
17976. Would
50
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March 1889.]
Mr, Juggins.
[ Continued.
1 7976. M ould not the cost increase also ?
As far as the cost upon waives goes, it would be increased.
17977. If the wages are liigher the cost to the [)urchaser of the chain would
be increased, would it not?
I suppose it would. Of course I cannot say anything about the purchaser of
the chain, or the selling price of the chain.
17978. You do not know, in fact, or have }^ou any opinion, as to whether
the man at the factory, the master, makes an undue profit out of the whole
transaction ?
The best evidence I can give you is that the ehain that you see before you
was formerly made in the district for 1 h d., and I find that that has been sold
in London by some of the saddlers at 7 s.
17979. Do you mean that a chain that is selling in London for 7 s. is made
for d.'i
Has been made in the district for \ \ d.
1 7980. That would be exclusive of the value of the material you mean that
the wages are 1 1 c/, ?
I mean that the wages are II d.
17981. That would exclude the cost of material, the rent, the plant, the cost
of transportation, and so on ?
Yes. A man working at that would be able to earn about 1 j. 4 ^/. per day ;
1 am speaking now of old prices; I do not wish it to be understood that the
price I have quoted as charged in London for that chain is the general price ; I
am only stating the information I gathered in London. Taking Liverpool, I
have the best authority from a gentleman who purchased a number of these
chains for saying that he paid 5 s. each for them.
17982. Do 3 on know whether they are exported?
I believe so.
*7983. You would not know what the export price was?
No.
17984. Could you give us any opinion as to whether if the cost of the article
was increased it would have any prejudicial effect upon the export trade ?
I do not think it would, for the prices where chain is made abroad are con-
siderably higher than of chain made in England ?
1798,5. Then you would suggest that all these domestic and family workshops
should be subjected to the same rules and regidations as factories ?
Yes.
17986. In all respects, time of commencement, the hours of work, and
so on ?
Yes.
17987. Beyond that would you restrict the female labour in any other way as
to the kind of work which should be allowed to be done by women?
Yes, I would restrict the sizes to quarter inch ; and in speaking of this
question I have the authority of a meeting of females themselves, the report of
which 1 have with me ; they themselves agreed that no women should be
allowed to make a larger size than a quarter inch diameter,
17988. Did you say that you had the report with you ?
Yes, I have an extract from a newspaper report.
17689. When you say you thai you have the authority of the women, what
do you mean ?
I mean a meeting of women that was held for the purpose of considering this
question.
1799c. Wheji
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM,
51
5th March 1889.] ^Ir. JuGGiNS. ^Continued.
17990. When was the meeting lield?
The meeting was held two years ago.
17991. Was it largely attended?
Yes. The report I allude to is from a public newspaper.
17992. Can you tell me what number of female operatives were present ?
Two hundred or 300 .
17993. Two hundred or 300 out of how many ?
Out of perhaps 500 in the district in which the meeting was held
17994. What was the proposition or resolution put before them ?
This slip {handing it in) will show what passed.
17995. This I see was a meeting of women engaged in the nail and rivet
trades ?
Yes; it applies to the other trades alike. There are three trades, and in the
three trades t!ie conditions of employment are all similar. It does not matter
which trade you take, nail or chain,. or rivet ; the conditions of employment are
exactly the same.
17996. This newspaper paragraph deals principally with the question of
immorality, but 1 see one speaker says that he thought that women should never
have to make 5 - 16 ths rivets ?
That means 5 - 16 ths ; there is the omission of the figure 5 by a printer’s
error.
17997. Then I see a resolution was unanimously (lassed that “female labour
wanted to be restricted to the smaller kinds of work, but not abolished ” ; that
is what you are referring to r
Yes.
17998. That is to say a lighter kind of work in all these various trades?
Yes.
1 7099. But it
it is a technical phrase in the trade more than anything else, because the iron*
workers have 32 nds, and so on.
18156. Do most of the members of ymur society work in the domestic work-
shop ?
Most of them, not all.
18157. Then T gather from what you have said, that these prices are prac-
tically governed by the competition in the market ; the competition in the
market is what prevents some masters from adhering to the arrangements that
are come to ?
I cannot think that the competition actually prevents them ; I think it arises
more from a greedy avaricious principle on the part of some that never ought
to be in the category as employers of labour or masters ; they go and send out
a quotation, and they get orders, and they know as well as they know
their own existence that tliey cannot pay the men the price, because they have
taken it out at such a very low figure, and it is a study day and night how they
shall try to reduce the poor workman ; they know who is the weakest out of
them, and whom to tackle first ; and then when an honourable master sends out
his quotation lie has got no chance ; that is where the competition arises.
18158. What do you mean by “ sending out his quotation do you mean the
price he offers to the merchant ?
Yes.
181 59. And you say that some of the manufacturers will offer to the merchant
to make the chains at a price that they knov,' perfectly well will not admit of a
fair rate of wage to the workmen ?
Y^es.
18160. What steps do the workmen take to keep up the prices ?
In manv instances 1 suppose from sheer necessity they are compelled almost
to take any wage that these masters offer them.
18161. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Juggins ?
No ; I heard a few words towards the latter part only, but very little.
18162. As to domestic workshops the evidence he gave to the Committee
was to the effect that as a general rule a man rented a dwelling house and work-
shop at the back, a shop varying from a size to accommodate two persons to ten
persons ?
Yes, that is quite correct.
18163. And
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
C 3
5th March Mr. Homek. ^Continued.
i8i(). 3. And that they employed themselves and their families, and perhaps
two or three or four more people, not members of their families ; that would be
correct, would it ?
Yes, quite correct.
18164. Do you know how the operatives are paid in those workshops ; are
they paid altogether by piece, or are any of them paid by time ?
All the work that the man gets out from the warehouse, from the employer,
he is paid for by piecework, so much per cwt ; but then there are cases where
men, unprincipled human beings, get a lot of youngsters, boys and girls, into
their shops, get them what they call apprenticed, and get them to work for
next to nothing. I know a case of one man paying the youths in his shop, boys
and girls (tliey are mostly girls), one halfpenny per hour.
18165. That would be a very light kind of chain, I suppose
Yes.
18166. Bv that means they are able to sell this chain very cheap ?
Yes. Such a man as the one I am referring to is working against the
respectable employers, and working against the trade at large.
18167. What do you mean by “working against”.^
I mean working against the prices.
18168. But as a rule the occupier of the shop gets paid a certain price per
cwt. for the chain, does he not ?
Yes.
1 8169. Then he pays the men or women who are working for him a certain
price ?
I will tell you the custom of the trade. You heard me refer just now to that
list, 4 s. per cwt. for half-inch ; that is the basis. A man that has got a shop
employing children working under him takes one-fourth; that is the custom;
no one objects, we all agree to that; that has been the custom, so far as my
memory will carry me back ; consequently the man would have 1 s. per cwt.
out of the A s. \ he has to pay carriage for the iron and carriage for the work ; he
has to go and weigh it ; he has to pay the shop rent and firing, and for the tools,
and so on; and he gets a fourth for his capital that he has invested in fuel and
tools and carriage, and so on.
181 70. To that you have no objection ?
No.
18171. I asked you as to the men or women who are working in the shop,
how they are paid ; the occupier of the shop, as I understand it, will get so
much per cwt ; then he has the men and women working for him?
In all legitimate cases he will be paid as I say, but there are cases such as I
was referring to just now, where they get these apprentices, and get, perhaps,
other men to work for them, and will give them so much a day, so much per
week rather ; some of them so much an hour. I referred to a case of a half-
penny per hour ; they get some of them to work three or perhaps six months
for nothing, then they begin to work for 2 s. 6 d. or 3 s. They are not all so
niggardly; some are more generous than others.
18172. But as a general rule the occupier of the shop returns to the peo|)le
working for him the same price as he gets himself, deducting so much for the
expenses of carriage, and firing, and so on ?
Yes.
1 8173. hat kind of wages do they earn ?
You see there are so many different sizes. The smaller the work is
as a rule the less a man earns. Now, at the price that they are paying,
if we take it at 3 6 d., many of the masters will not pay them above that.
Take the half-inch ; there is a deal of boasting and bragging with some of the
men and with some of the employers as to liow much a man can make.
(11.) H4 Admitted
G4
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March 1889 .] Mr, Homeu. ^Continued.
Admitted that a man will perhaps in some weeks, when lie does nearly two
week’s work in one, make his 10 cwr. in the week, but J do not believe that
there is a man in the trade to-day with all his expertness and ability who will
average more than seven cwt. per week.
1 8i 74. What kind of chain will that be ?
I am speaking now of the half- inch.
18175. What will he get paid for it r
He would get about 2 s. 6 d. per cwt., and if he gete the very outside,
2 s. ^ 2 d. , then out of that he would have to pay a lad or girl to assist him in
blowing the bellows, for which he would pay 2 6 or 3 or 3 6 d. in
some cases per week.
18176. What else would come out of that ?
I was saying just now that it was customary for a journeyman to have three
parts out of the four for his labour, and if the half-inch is 3.9. 6 d., three parts
of that would be 2 s. 7 ^ d.
18177. We understand he has to pay one-fourth of the gross price to his
employer?
Yes.
18178. And then to pay a girl or bo}'^ to blow the liellows ?
Yes.
18179. The rest would not be wages ?
Yes.
18180. Is this the kind of work done in factories at all?
Yes ; smaller than that they make in some factories.
18181. As to the length of hours they have to work, what have you got to
say to that ?
It varies very much indeed ; some of them work very long hours, and others
do not work so long. There is a deal said about people working 70 hours
a-week, and some say 60 , and some say 65 hours, and so on; they give
different hours which men work, but it strikes me forcibly that it would be
a moral impossibility for a man to stick to the work and follow it up those many
hours. I do not dispute that the shop is open all that lime, but I think if we
look at it from the natural point of view, we should see that there would not
be enough to support them at chain making so many hours, if they were to
stick close to it, because it is very laborious work indeed.
18182. The laboriousness of the labour, I suppose, depends upon the size
of the chain r
Yes ; still there are no wages coming in unless there is self-application in
making the chain. It is not like another man labouring; he may have an hour
or two’s rest with his wages going on ; but a chain maker must be applying
every nerve he has got while he is at it, or else there is no money coming in.
18183. Personally, I do not know any trades where men go on getting wages
when they are resting ; but I want to get from you what you consider to be
the hours that they generally work per week ?
They vary materially, as I said before. Some men will do the work quicker
than others, but I know that many of the men have to w'ork very late ; what-
ever they do in the daytime they are workitjg late at night.
I 8 1 84. Do you suppose they work 60 hours a week on the average ?
They must, if they are to do that work, many of them ; some could do it in
less time.
18185. Have many of the men engaged in working at making chain got any
other trade ?
Not men that work at the chain trade solely ; there are other men that work
at other trades ; they will come home and work in the chain shop after they
have
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
C5
5th March 1889 .]
Mr. Homer.
[ Continued.
have done their work for their regular employer, or if they have got a day or
half a day’s play in their own place they will turn into the chain shop.
i8i8d. Tt may hap()en that men will come back from their regular work and
take a turn in the chain shop ?
Very often.
18187. Therefore the shop might be open for men working very late at night
though they had not been working a great many hours in that shop ?
Yes.
18188. Do you know how many of these learners you have spoken of are
generally employed in a shop ; two or three, or what number ?
It varies with the size of the shop according to the extent of a man’s business
premises. Some of them keep very little besides learners. As soon as they
have taught one batch tlu-y will not give them the money that they are worth,
and they will go elsewhere, and they will employ another lot of learners.
18189. What \\ould you call an average size shop ?
In an average sized shop as near as 1 could tell in the trade, with these
domestic shops as we call them, there would be five fires in the shop, and some
of them have seven, eight, nine, or ten, or perhaps more than that.
18190. I should gather from you that you do not think that the hours of
labour are excessive r
Y'es, for the amount of money that they get I do.
18191. But you have not told the Committee what the hours of labour are.
I tried to get from you what you consider the weekly average hours of labour
are ; if you say they are excessive, I should like to know what you consider
excessive ?
The labour is excessive when they are at work making the chain and the
shops no doubt may be open 60 or / O hours a week. I am not always on the
road to see, bu reports go that the men are working 60 or /O hours a week ;
but I maintain my opinion (it is only my opiuion), that the men could not
follow it uj) week after week to work so many hours.
18192. I understand you that you think it impossible that the men can
work 60 or 70 hours, because the work is so hard ?
I do think it impossible.
18193. Earl of Derhi/^ Do you mean that they knock off from time to
lime ?
In the daytime, and have rest ; that is how I look at it.
18194. Chairman.~\ Your opinion is that 60 hours a week of this kind of
work would be excessive ?
I think so. It is true that they are old men most of them very soon when
they follow this kind of employment.
18195. Have you any idea how many hours they ought to work as a fair
week’s work for a man ?
I think if a man does eight hours’ work at chain-making a day, he will
have a enough of it, if you will excuse my using a homely phrase ?
18196. He will have had quite enough ?
I think rather too much, if he has to stick to it in the time. I do not mean
counting in meal time ; I mean eight hours work.
18197. Earl of Derby.'] Then you are assuming that he is working at full
speed, doing all he can during the whole of that time?
Yes.
1 8; 08. Of course, if a man is working in his own house with no one standing
over him to drive him on it is not certain that he will be working at full
speed ?
Not all the time ; nature would not stand it.
(11.) I
18199. Chairman. \
66
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March 1 889.] Mr. Homer. {Continued.
1 ^* 99 ’ ChciiTTncin.~\ Do you think, as a matter of fact, that a few work on
he averaaje longer than eight hours in the day ?•
Yes, I do.
18200. A good deal more?
Yes, I do.
18201 There is not much work done 1 presume on Mondays and
Saturdays ?
Not with some of the people; but with some Mondays is like a regular day ;
Saturday is not so because they have to take the work away and reckon it, and
bring the money home. Many of them on the Monday are as regular as on
any other day of the week.
18202. In 3 our opinion ought any steps to he taken to regulate the hours of
work ?
I think it would be the salvation of the trade if something of that kind was
to be done ; it is my firm conviction.
18203. Have }’-ou got any idea in }mur own mind as to how it could be done,
the way you think it might be done ?
There is no other way 1 believe in wliich it can be done except by legislation.
We tried last year in the early part of it after the long strike we had had owing
to the depression, and it was agreed that we were to begin at 7 o’clock in the
morning, anti leave work at 6 o’clock at night ; we tried to carry it out and we
succeeded very well for a time, but then some of them began to break away
from the rule. 1 used to send men round to see who was at work and talk to
them, and see if we could persuade them to leave work at a given time ; but
no, perhaps they had been having an hour’s extra play in the day; and they
wanted to put it on at night; and then when the shop is open late at night it
gives an opportunity for the men at work at other branches of industry,
labourers or not, to come in and work at this; but I consider that they have
never done their duty to their employers, and tired themselves, or else they
would never have been so eager to come home and work at chain making ; but
then they have come into these sliops, and stopped working till 9 or 10 o’clock
at night after they have done what they call their day’s work for their regular
employers ; and then after they have made their work, it is of an inferior quality
perhaps in the case of many of them, and they will take and offer it to the
masters, and if the masters vvdl not buy it they will offer it to the foggers or
middlemen ; and they will buy it at a cheaper rate ; but still it is sold again
into the warehouses of the masters many of them ; and so the chain goes off.
18204. In fact you and your association have made attempts to limit the
hours ot laboui-, but vou have failed ?
Yes.
18205. having failed, you think that the State might be more successful
by legislation ?
Yes, I do.
18206. Do you think the operatives themselves would be willing to have their
right to work as long as they chose restricted ?
1 believe that more than 19 out of every 20 in the trade to-day would be
glad if the Government would step in and legislate for them.
18207. You mean legislate in the way of reducing the hours?
Yes, I educing tlie hours.
18208. You spoke of “ foggers ” just now, we have not heard of them before
in the chain-making ; does the fogger exist in the chain-making ?
Yes ; almost as bad, if not quite, as in the nail trade.
18209. you the Committee about the foggers ?
We may call the fogger a sweater, but in our county they are called foggers,
middle-men ; they are not confined to an alias or two.
18210. But
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
5th March 1889.] Mr. Homer. iContinued.
1 8210. But lias lie got a shop, or what?
Sometimes lie has a shop ; iu most instances they have shops. Many of
them have some iron of their own, and money ; they do not go into market
themselves ; and they give the iron out almost on equal terms we may say, just
the same as the regular master would, but tliey buy the chain at a cheaper
rate, and they consequently supply the masters with it ?
i82ri. Do you mean that they buy it at a cheaper rate than the regular
masters ?
Yes.
1821 2. Flow is that ?
The}^ do do it.
18213. good ail article for less?
The masters buy them again ; whether as good or not 1 cannot say. The
masters help the foggers mure than the workmen do.
18214. Flow do they buy the material cheaper?
1 do not mean that they buy the material cheaper, but that they buy the work
cheaper I'rora the workmen.
18215. Then the fogger might be described as a very small master ?
Some of them.
18216. They have their own material, and they act in fact as the masters,
only that they sell the manufactured article to some other master?
Yes, they will have the iron come in waggon loads the same as the master,
and they deliver it out in as large quantities, some of diem, more so than many
of the masters ; they have their horses and waggons and warehouses, and are
just on a par with many of the masters, and more extensive than many of the
masters.
1 82 *7. Some of them work themselves, do they not ?
Not those larger ones ; they have as much as they can really do to manage
the v.?hole without doing any work. When you come to the smaller scale some
of them do work. .
18218. Sume of them combine working themselves with buying from others
also ?
Yes ; there are small foggers also that perhaps do not employ more than
half a dozen men or women and youths. They may go to a warehouse and get
5 cwt. of small chain. No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3 made out of that size.
18219. When you say they get from the warehouse so much small chain you
mean the material to make the small chain ?
Yes, the iron ; and when they get it home they will have one woman to a
bundle of half a hundredweight, 56 lbs ; and according to the size of the iron
they will stop 1 s., 1 6^. 6 d., 2 a., and 2 ,y. 6 d. per cwt. out of what they are
going to have at the w'arehouse from the master ; in fact, they make a larger
profit by far in many instances than the regidar employer does. I do not know
the object of the masters in doing it through him, but it is done ; whether it is
to save extra entries in their books, or what, I canned tell, but it is done.
18220. When you say that the fogger stops so much, do you mean that he
gives the operative so much less than he is himself getting?
Yes.
18221. And you think that the master prefers to deal with the fogger rather
than with the operative himself?
I cannoi say whether they prefer to do it, but it is done ; it saves them a
little in book-keeping, but that is about all.
18222. Some of the small foggers wo) k themselves, and some of the large
ones do not ?
Yes.
(11.) I 2
18223. I think
68
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March 1889.] Mr. Homer. \_Continued.
1 1223. 1 think you say that some of the large ones have a business just as
extensive as some of the legitimate masters ?
Yes.
18224. such a case how would you distinguish between the fogger and the
legitimate master, what is the difference between them ?
The one never sends any chain into the market at all, but simply supplies
persons in the locality.
18225. He is always a middle-man ?
Yes ; the master can go to him ; he has tons of chain in his warehouse
and the master can go in and buy what he wants, and just, as much as he wants
in many instances; and then he has not got to buy the iron and issue it and
get it back again, but he buys it off the middle man at once.
18226. Have the foggers always existed in the small trade?
1 cannot recollect in my young days any of them ; they might have been in
existence, but I cannot recollect it, only as the trade has largely developed,
these men have sprung up more in the midst of the trade.
18227. You spoke of men working at other businesses going into the chain
shops, and making a certain amount of chains ; I suppose they would take it
on to these foggers ?
Yes.
18228. Such a man could not take it to one of the legitimate masters, could
he, very well? '
Yes, he could.
1822Q. The nearest master’s place might be some distance, might it not ?
Yes, it might ; but they are not very far apart in our localiiies, so many
masters being dotted here and there about.
18230. Then why does he take it to the fogger instead of the master?
In one respect I think it is because the masters will not be bothered with
them in the small quantities they make, in some instances.
18231. ^ tnan likes to work three or four or five or six hours in a chain
shop to earn a few shillings, if it were not for the fogger would he be able to
dispose of his work ?
I do not think he would.
18232. Therefore in that way the fogger is useful ?
Useful in one way, and injurious m the other.
18233. Injurious because you think that it would be better that these people
outside the trade should not go into it at all ?
Becau.se it seems that when a man has done a day’s work he should not go
and rob poor souls who have not lialf a day’s work.
1S234. If it is the fact that men working at other businesses work during
odd hours and half-hours at chain-making, and sell it cheaper to the fogger,
does that have an appreciable effect upon the prices ?
Yes.
1 8235. You think it has a large effect ?
Yes. I can tell you that if a master can buy one hundredvveight of chain
cheaper than the list price, then if it is possible, he will never give another man
more than he gave for that hundredweight.
1 8236. That is to say, according to you, you might have a number of men,
100 or 1,000, combine not to take less than a certain price one man will
come in with comparatively a small quantity, one hundredweight, and say,
“ Here, I am willing to take less that would have the effect of breaking down
the whole ?
No, I should not wish to convey that idea, because if it was 1,000 to one, or
1,000 to two, or 1,000 to 10, we should not care about them at all.
18237. But
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
69
5th March 1889.]
Mr. Homek.
[ Continued.
18237. But it is the fact that there are so many of them that produces the
effect ?
So many of them.
I S238. A great many women work at chain-making, do they not ?
Yes.
18239. More than formerly ?
Yes.
18240. How do you account for that ?
1 cannot account for it in any other way than this : there is no other opening
there for females in our trade at present, no branch of industry, scarcely,
besides chain-making, and since there has lieen such a depression in the nail
trade, and so much machinery brought to bear upon the nail making as they
were already partly used to the iron and fire and hammer, it did not take them
much time and trouble to begin to make chains, and consequently they are
nearly all being brought up in the chains-making line.
18241. That would affect both men and women ?
Yes ; but somehow I think there is a preponderance of females in our country.
I do not know whether it is so in other countries.
18242. Do you mean that the disproportion is greater now than formerly?
I think so.
18243. Do you consider that females are employed upon work that is so hard
as to be unwholesome ; unsuited to woman ?
1 am only going to speak as to the chain trade ; in some instances it is so ;
the iron that they work into chain is too large for them ; they ought not to be
allowed to make it.
18244. You think that they ought to be restricted ?
Restricted in the size of iron.
18245. To what size ?
If 1 give you technical size, it is what we call No. 1 iron.
18246. What would be the size?
I cannot give you the size, but it is not a number, in the way of the fifteens,
seventeens, and so on, but it is larger than the quarter-inch.* I shall have a
chain ami will show you the size of a No. 1 chain before I go back, which we
consider large enough for a female to work.
18247. You think that no woman should be allowed to make laro-er than
that }
No, I think not.
18248. Then as to children and young persons, do you consider that they
are employed in a way that is not suitable ?
No ; I do not see much the matter with the children so far as the size and
all that is concerned that they make ; in some instances thev have to work a
little too hard, and rather too young; many of then do more than their stren<>-th
will proj)ei'ly allow them to do.
18249. Do you object to female labour as competing with male labour ^
It is no use objecting to it under present circumstances.
1 8250. I ask you whether you do object to it on principle ?
Yes, on principle, I do entirely.
18251. On account of the competition?
Yes; and I do not think that females ought to be taught to be blacksmiths.
18252. Would you agree with the former witness who said that as far as
married women were concerned, if they were not allowed to work at all the
family could earn just as much ; that the man would earn just as much and
the lamily would be none the worse ; because the woman neglects her household
duties for the sake of working in the shop. nousenoia
(11-) I 3
I believe
70
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March 1889. j Mr. HoMEll. \_Conthined.
1 believe it would be bir preferable for every married man in the trade if his
wife was to keep entirely out of the ehain shop. There are many reasons why;
if you wish I could state tlie reasons.
1825 3 . Certainly ?
In the first place, when the woman turns into the sliop to work vervthing
in the house is entirely neglected ; you can go into that house at times, and as
you cannot expect the woman to do t\V(> things, you will see that house most
filthy and untidy in many instances ; she really cannot give time and attention
to attend to her domestic duties, because she feels the necessity of earning
every penny she can to help her husband, and then very often vrhen night
comes and they have both done work there is neither fire nor comfort in the
house ; and very often it drives the man to go and get a |)int of beer extra to
what he would have, ilis under garments are wet through, and tliere is no fire
in the house, and his trousers are as wet as if they had been dipped in
the brook or a pail of water, and there is no fire for him to dry
them bv. 'J'he woman in n:any instances, I am sorry to say, has been
trained from her youth to make chains, and knows very little or nothing about
domestic duties Avhen she gets mariied, .-carcely knows how to sew a button on
a man’s shirr ; she has m)t been taught herself, and she has no idea hoiv to teach
her child because she lias never had the education herself. 8till, on the other
hand, there are lots of women who improve themselves, and make the best use
of their time, and attend to ail those little domestic duties as well as they can.
But if the woman when she ivas married was not allowed to remain in the shop
I believe there would be more comfort and a better supply from the man’s own
labour than there is now from the two put togciber. In many instances the
woman when she is at work in the shop will perhaps earn her 85. to 3 s. 6 d.,
attending to little domestic duties besides ; and she has got to pay a girl at
least 2 s. 6 d. per w’eek for nursing the baby, but what is she the better off?
But still being accustomed to the tvork in the shop from her youth up she goes
to the shop and the husband says : “ If she does not come to the sltop 1 shall
not.” But if the woman was not allowed to work he would not expect her to
do so, and he would have to buckle to iiimself, and be more of a man, and feel
a greater responsibility.
18254. As a matter of fact do you think that the fact of a married woman
working adds very little to the man’s income ?
Very little indeed, all things considered.
18255. That the little she earns is balanced by what she may have to pay to
somebody to look after the children, and by the waste in the house ?
Yes.
18256. Is there any other reason why you think they ougliCnotto be allowed
to vvork in the shops ? '
There is ; I think it tends very much to injure the race of the chain makers ;
many (Y them are little tiny dwarfs ; and it cannot be expected that there shall
be much muscle and bone in them ; seeing that v.hile the wife is pregnant she
is hard at work from morning to night; it must tend to prevent development
even before the little things come into the world, and when they come they
are shamefully neglected and cannot afterwards properly develop.
18257. Then would you go so far as to propose that married women should
not be allowed to remain in the shop at all ?
If I could have ray way I would soon settle it ; but I should not like to say
that that would be my ])roposition ; but I have told the w’orkers at large
m.eetings that if 1 had it in my power not a woman after she was married should
work in the shop, and I have told them the reason why, and many of them
have been pleased about it.
18258. Do you think it would have any effect in preventing their marrying
at all ?
No, 1 do not think it would, they will marry.
18259. What
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
71
5th March 1889.]
Mr. lioMEll.
\_Conlinued.
iS25(). What is your opinion about the advantage or disadvantage of these
domestic workshops as compared to factories ?
At one time in iiiv life I can recollect the factories were very scarce
indeed, very thinly scattered. I do not recollect above one chainmaker’s
factory, and the chainmakers at that time were bitterly opposed to factories
being introduced into t!ie trade; they were afraid it would be an injury to them;
but in the course of events, and as time has gone on, men see now, the bulk of
them, that the factories would be far preferable to the system that they have
now of working in their own shops.
182C0. You think they would prefer the factory system themselves ?
Many of them v/ould ; there would be a difficulty if any attempt was to be
made to aliolish these domestic shops on a wholesale scale ; it could not be done
very well unless someone was prepared to make compensation.
18261. But do you think that the domestic shops ought to be put under
the same regulations and rules with regard to liours, and so on, as the
factories ?
Yes, quite so ; in fact it would be better if they were all in factories alto-
gether; that would be better than even being put under the Workshops Act;
but as 1 say it could not be done at present, because every little man has his
1 1 . or 2 1 . invested in a pair of old bellows, in a bick-iron, or something of that
sort, and that is like a sacred piece of furniture.
18262. Is it your opinion that the occupiers of these shops would not object
to having the domestic workshops put under the same regulations as exist in
factories as to hours, and so on .-
Many of them would be heartily glad if they wei e ; it is only those people who
are never satisfied with anything that is done that would grumble ; it would be
one of the finest things that could be done under the circumstances for the
workers themselves, and hundreds of them would be heartily glad if that were
done.
18263. Now, as to the sanitary condition of these workshops, is there sufficient
air in them fur the number of people employed, do you suppose? We were
told by the former witness that they were very low, generally speaking ?
Yes, they arc very low, many of them are very unhealthy, and the surround-
ings are very bad indeed.
1 8264. Are they very hot ?
Yes, the lower they are the hotter they are ; there are some good shops as
well as bad ones.
18265. The heat is very great in some of them, is it not ?
Yes.
18266. And they are very draughty?
Yes.
. 18267. And the sanitary condition is bad ?
Yes, very bad in many cases. Not only are the shops bad, but their houses are
bad too.
18268. One question I forgot to ask you about these foggers ; combined with
what you said about the advantrige of factories, if all the work was carried on
in factories, what would become of these people who occasionally make chains
and sell to the foggers, or to tlie unskilled part of the people engaged in making
chains ; how could they dispose of them at all
Kfi They would have to cease making chains unless they were put under some
one to instruct them. If they were all made in factories they would not have
a chance to do as they are doing now ; if they were all made in factories,
everybody would have to go there to work; it would be advantageous, in my
opinion, both to the employers and to the employes.
18269. And these girls who work for nothing, and then only for a very low
wage, what would become of them ?
(11.) 1 4 There
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th March Mr, Homer. [Continued.
There might be shops erected in a portion of the factory wliere the girls might
be put by themselves, learning to work with a female instructor as an inspector
over them.
18270. Have the masters combined at all with the men to keep up the
statement of prices ?
You see that list of prices which I presented to you was drawn up jointly by
the masters and men. We tried to get a conference of the masters. The
second attempt we had there were 16 or 18 of the employers present with us at
this meeting, and then we agreed to formulate that list.
1 827 1 . Have the operatives made any attempt to dispense with the foggers ?
Not that 1 am aware of.
18272. And the masters do not object to the foggers ?
No, I suppose not ; I never heard them object much to them,
18273. fognCi’s, in your opinion, are not much use to anybody; but
nobody takes any steps to try and do without them ?
They are very injurious men in the locality. They have nothing to risk that
I can see, and everything to gain ; they make considerably more profit than the
legitimate employer does.
18274. How do you account then for the fact that the men have never
apparently combined to get rid of the foggers ?
I do not know, I really cannot account for it; they have been talking about
it, and that has been all.
18275. Do these foggers keep shops ?
Yes.
18276. 1 mean provision shops?
I do not know ; J think there are some, from what I have heard, tliat do
keep provision shops ; some of them keep public-houses, chainmasters more
particularly.
18277. Is it the case, do you suppose, that the workpeople are practically
compelled to buy things in these shops, or in these public-houses ?
Without a doubt they are ; those that do not go get little or no work, and
those that do go have the picking, so to speak, of the jobs ; they have the job
that will pay the best.
18278. You mean that the man that will spend most money will get most
work ?
Yes ; and he pays double for his beer in that way, and double for the
provisions.
18279. Do you mean really double, or are you only using that word as a
figure of speech ?
You see they have to waste a lot of time there.
18280. You do not mean to say that a man charges the workman double ?
No, not for his beer, but ibr his provisions he is charged more, ; I w'as told
that some of them are charged 9 (?. a pound for hacon tliat they can buy at 5 d.
or 5 ^ d. or 6 in and looks round ; but if there was a certain hour fixed at which they
all had to close, he could soon see whether they were violating the law or not;
I think it would be a very easy thing myself if the hours of labour were
limited, and they were brought under the Factory Act.
18317. You mean that even the existing staff of Government inspectors could
do it with even less trouble than they have now ?
Yes, at least one man would do a great deal more business than he is now
doing, doing it more efficiently.
18318. With reference to the foggers being practically, in some cases,
receivers of stolen goods, I understood from the former witness that when the
iron was given out to be made into chains the men paid for the iron ; I under-
stand from what you say that they do not?
No, they do not.
1 8319. Then to what extent can they go on with their system of taking iron
and making chains, and selling them to foggers ; when they were found out
they could not go to the same master again ?
You see when a man is bent on doing evil, the more opportunities he has the
more evil he commits; a man disposed in that way will go and get a bit of iron
from one place and then from another, and then there are so many foggers that
he can go and sell a few cwt. to one fogger and a few cwt. to another, and thus
he can carry it on to an alarming extent if he is so disposed ; and really I do
not know whether the man would come under the Criminal Act ; the iron is
booked to him, and credited to him; but then I think under the Employers Act
somehow that iron sliould be brought in in a given time, and if it is not, then
the em plover has a chance to try to recover it, and if the man has disposed
of it within that time, I think that then the man might be dealt with in a
more stringent way, and then it would touch the fogger in that case.
I 8320. But I suppose every time that the workman plays this trick, it knocks
off one of the masters to whom he could go in future to get work ?
Yes, I suppose so ; although sometimes they will go and creep in again.
18321. But is that a wide practice, do you consider ?
I have not a doubt that there is more carried on than comes within my
knowledge ; more carried on than what everybody is aware of,
1 8322. Lord Monksivellk] Up to what age do you say men can work at chain
making ; you say they get old soon ?
That is a question ; it varies ; some men bear it ever so much better than
others ; some men will work till they are 60 and 65 ; they make small chain,
and make it pretty well.
18323. The
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
77
5th March 1889.]
Mr. rioMEK.
[ Continued.
18323. The large chains, I moan ?
They cannot make the large chains ; I do not know men very old that make
large chains.
18324. On an average would they have to knock off chainmaking at 50 ?
No.
18325. They can work after that r
Yes.
18326. You say that the competition is very severe among masters; I do not
understand you to say that the masters make exorbitant profits ?
That the competition is very severe, I admit, but I believe some of the masters
make exorbitant profits ; I have known in iny time in the neighbourhood many
that have begun, and they began comparatively with nothing, and now they
seem to be in very prosperous and flourishing circumstances. 1 cannot say
whether it is all gold that glitters with them or not, but at any rate they have
horses, and they have traps and gigs, and they have fine houses, and they seem
to do exceedingly well. I do not envy them.
18327. Lord Sandhurst.'] Do you think that from year to year tlie physical
condition of all these chainmakers, men, women, and children is getting worse
or better ; are the children more puny ?
I really believe they are ; I believe the present generation is the worst I have
known in my time while I have been living there, and I have been living at
Cradley Heath and Dudley Wood for more than 52 years.
18328. You think it is worse than it was ?
I do.
1 8329. In the last ten years, we will say ?
Yes, in the last ten years.
18330. Chairman.] You mentioned No. 1 chains as the largest that women
ought to make ?
Yes.
18331. Mr. Juggins mentioned l-inch chain ; is that the same ?
No. 1 is rather larger than the quarter-inch.
18332. Now as to one answer that you made, I am not clear that I under-
stand it correctly. You were speaking of the master being unwilling himself to
beat down the price to the workmen, and sending him away, saying. No, he
did not want the article, and sending him to a fogger, and then the fogger, you
said, would buv it very cheap?
Yes.
18333. Do I understand then from you that the fogger would sell it to
the master cheaper than the master could have bought it from the workman ;
cheaper than the stated price.
Yes, cheaper than the ])roper price ; the master would not like to beat the
man down himself.
18334. The master, you mean, would not like to go below the stated
price, and he lets the logger do that part of the business ?
Yes.
18335. And then ultimately buys it from the fogger cheaper than he could
buy it at the legitimate price ?
Yes.
The Witness is ordered to withdraw.
Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned till To-morrow,
Twelve o’clock.
K 3
( 11 .)
( 78 )
( 79 )
Die Mercurii^ 6 ® Martii^ 1889 .
LORDS PRESENT:
Duke of Norfolk.
Earl of Derby.
Viscount Gordon {Earl of Aberdeen),
Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.
Lord Kenry ( Earl of Dunraven and
Mount-Earl).
LORD KENRY (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl), in the Chair.
Lord Sandhurst.
Lord Rothschild.
Lord Monkswell.
Lord Thring.
Mr. THOMAS HOMER, having been re-called ; is further Examined,
as follows :
18336. Chairman,~\ I think you told the Committee yesterday that there
were 3,000 or 4,000 hands employed in the district of which you were
speaking ?
Yes.
18337. you mean that there are not more than 3,000 or 4,000 men,
women, and children employed in the chain -making ?
Not in the small chain-making, I should think. We have never taken a
census that I am aware of, and we cannot speak positively.
18338. Do you know in what other parts of England small chains are made ?
There is no small chain made in any other part to any extent ; there is a
little made at Walsall.
18339. to take it from you that the small chain trade in England
contains not more than 3,000 or 4,000 all told ?
I should not think it does.
1 8340. I want to clear up a little what you said about the operatives selling
the material to foggers ; what you mean, if I understand you, is that the opera-
tive goes to the manufacturer and gets so much iron ?
Yes.
18341. He does not pay for that ?
No, it is booked to him ; it is entered to his account.
18342. And there is an implied contract entered into that he is to return so
much of tl)e manufactured article ?
Yes.
18343. And 1 think you said also that he sometimes obtains an advance on
taking the iron out ?
Perhaps in the course of a day or two after he has had the iron, and worked
a portion of it up into chain, he will go back to the employer and get so much
cash on account.
18^44. Before delivering any of the chain r
Yes.
(11.) K4
18345. The
80
minutes of evidence taken before the
Qth March 1889.] Mr. Homer. [^Continued.
18345. Then am I right in supposing that you mean that the operative will
then take the material and dispose of it, sell it to the fogger ?
Yes.
J 8346. And you infer from that the foggers ought to be done away with in
some way, because they, practically, are receivers of stolen goods ?
1 do.
18347. But has not the manufacturer a very simple remedy against the
operative ?
Yes, I think the remedy is sufficient, but many of the masters do not avail
themselves of that remedy ; yet some of them do.
1 8348. Why do they not ?
Perhaps it is on account of their leniency towards the operatives ; I cannot
say what else.
18349. Do you mean that the masters would submit to be robbed in that
way ?
I really believe many of them do submit to it before they will be at the trouble
of taking any steps about it.
18350. The amount is not worth their while ?
Just so ; in some instances 1 think the employers have really submitted to
great losses in the course of years.
18351. The employer, I suppose, could bring a criminal action, or a civil
action, whichever he preferred ?
I have never known them to take an action as a criminal one ; more as a
civil one.
1 8352. They generally proceed in the County Court r
Or before a bench of magistrates sometimes ; when it has been out a certain
length of time they have to make a debt of it, and then it is in the County
Court.
18353. Is the chain always brought back on the Saturday of the same week
as the material is taken out ?
No ; sometimes the men could not work it up in the time ; sometimes men
go in twice or three times in the course of the week and take the work in and
weigh it ; some of them go almost every day if they have small orders from the
masters.
1 8354. Do they ever keep it a longer time than a week ?
Yes, a fortnight, three weeks; more than that sometimes before it is
brought in.
18355. Now I want to ask you as to this blowing ; we had it in evidence that
a girl will blow two bellows ?
Yes.
18356. How is it done ?
They have them connected with what is called the rock staff ; instead of its
being in the proper place for it, when the one blower is at work, it is turned up
in the contrary road and connected with some iron, so that one stands up on a
cross-piece there {describing it), and will blow two pairs of bellows. Sometimes
there is a wheel, and on turning the wheel you are. continually blowing three
and four pair at one time.
1 8357. Do you say that the blower stands on a cross-piece?
Yes, right up in the roof of the shop, and is partly suffocated in hot weather ;
it must be full of sulphur there.
18358. But they work it in all cases by hand, do they not ?
They stand when they are up there, and the leg is at work as if it were on
the treadmill {describing it). Sometimes they have to hold something to
balance themselves while they are at work ; they stand up five or si.t feet high,
or
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
81
%th March 1889.] Mr. Homeu. [^Continued.
or higher than that ; it is according to the height of the frame that the bellows
are fixed in. ^
18359. How many hours continuously would they work. like that ?
In many cases, when the mastei- works 10 or 12 hours per day, so long- the
boy or girl has to blow these bellows continually.
18360. But I mean continuous hours; a man never works for 10 hours
without stopping r
No ; many of them will work from half-past nine to one o’clock without any
cessation whatever, but many of them take an interval of perhaps ten minutes
or a quarter of an hour between. The same with regard to the time from two
to six ; some of them take an interval ; some do not take any interval at all.
1 8361. In fact, the girl blowing has to keep up with the man or woman who
is working ?
Yes.
1 836-2. Do you know whether the foggers you spoke of have generally worked
themselves ?
Some of them do work.
18363. And some do not?
Yes.
18364. But have they all worked at some time ?
I should think they have or else they would not have understood the trade if
they had not worked at it some time or other.
18365. Do they ever sell directly to the merchant ?
Very few of them, and very little ; it is mostly supplied to masters in tlie
immediate locality.
1 8366. You would say, then, that the fogger does not attempt to undersell
the masters with the merchant ?
No ; not as a rule.
18367. In your opinion is there anything indecent or immodest in the way in
which the work is carried on in the shops ?
In many of the shops there is.
18368. But not in all ?
Not in all. For instance, where there is a father who has got his shop with
bis own family, and one or two hired hands with him generally in those shojis,
it is carried on very decently ; but in some shops, where there is no particular
father in the shop and no special foreman, and they have big young women
blowing for them, very often there are doings that will not bear the daylight ;
they are immoral.
183G9. Then you would say there is nothing- in the trade itself that leads to
immorality or indecency, but that it depends upon the way in which the shop
is conducted?
Upon the way the sho[) is conducted.
18370. Are the operations always paid as soon as they bring in their
goods r
No, not always.
18371. The general custom, as I understand from you, is to take the chain in
on the Saturday ?
They take it in as the masters require it, if they have it finished. When
men take the work in on Saturday, invariably they are paid on the Saturday
Some of the masters are good enough to pay the men, and to take in their
work any day of the week if they require it, but some reckon only to pay once
a week ; some will pay any day when the work is taken in and weighed.
1 8372. Is it the custom generally to pay twice a month ?
(11.) L
There
82
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Gth March 1889.] Mr. Homer.
[ Continued.
There are some places where men will draw on account, and the account
may run five or six weeks before the work is made up in the proper reckoning,
and in many instances the masters in those places have got their men to go on
working five or six wevks and allowed them to draw on account, and when they
came to pay up, in the reckoning of the men’s work, they have had the audacity
to bate the man’s work down for six weeks back without giving him any notice
« hatever ; so that when the men come to reckon up and have the wages they
should do, there has been a reduction of all that the men have made for six
weeks.
18373. How do you mean “a reduction”; on what ground; for what
reason ?
I cannot tell you on what ground, but that is the treatment that the men
receive from the hands of the employers.
18374. You mean that the man having contracted with the master to make a
chain at a certain price, when he comes to be paid at the end of five or six
weeks, the master does not give him that price?
No.
18375. That the master practically breaks the contract ?
Yes.
18376. Have you ever known any case of an operative bringing any action
against a master on that account ?
I do not know but of one case, I think ; only one, and then it was not
allowed to go into court ; it was settled between tlm master and the man. A
summons was had out, hut the master would not allow it to go into court.
18377. What did he do ?
Paid the man the right price, the right wages.
18378. If it was so successful in that one instance, how do you account for
other men not doing the same thing?
Where we might find one man of that description we find 100 the other way ;
they are afraid to take proceedings : they do not like to take proceedings
against their employer ; they pocket the affront and submit to the reduction
before they will do it ; because there is a system frequently that if a man is
discharged from one place because he will stand up for his price, and goes to
another [)lace for a situation or for employment, it is communicated ; the result
is that the man gets no work, he is boycotted in fact; and consequently the
men submit to these things rather than expose themselves to this system of
boycotting.
18379. 1 suppose there are no written contracts that pass at all between the
master and the men ; it is understood between them ?
Yes ; it is generally understood. The men, I am sorry to say, are made, as a
rule, small contractors. All those small chainmakers as a rule are made small
contractors ; and there is a general list by which the masters pledge themselves
to pay a certain price for the work, and perhaps for a week or two that price is
paid ; next week a person goes in for an order: “Well, what is your price;
what do you make so-and-so at ?” The man perhaps says, “the list price;”
“ We do not want any ; no order ; ’ and that is tried on with every man that
goes in, or a great many of them ; and then when they have taken that lot of
work in and ask for another order, they are made contractors again, and
have to contract again ; and very often these contracts are not fulfilled after
all, they are only verbal ones ; and when the man goes in again they do not pay
him even what they have contracted to pay.
18380. If a man, we will say, takes four or five weeks to finish the chain he
has contracted to make, has he ever any difficulty in getting advances from the
manufacturer ?
He never gets any advance till he has worked up all that he has by
him.
18381. I understood
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SM^EATING SYSTEM,
83
Qth March 1889.] Mr. Homeu. [Continued.
18381. I understood from you that a man would sometimes take out
sufficient material to occupy him for some three or lour, or five or six
weeks ?
Yes.
18382. Flas he any difficulty in getting advances; can he get advances
every week or from day to day, if he requires it, from the manulacturer ?
You mean drawing on account? Yes, he can do that with many of the
employers; they will advance every week if they think he has not drawn more
than the work will come to.
18383. Is it the case in your experience that men finding it difficult or
impossible to get advances from the manufacturer himself, have to get advances
from the logger ?
No; a man if he is wrking for what is termed a logger will apply to him
for an advance.
I 8384. I am speaking of a man v.'orking for a manufacturer?
He would apply to the manufacturer for an advance, but would not go to the
fogger ; but I have known cases where a man has been at work, and has wanted
to borrow a shilling or two in the week of his employers, and the}^ have
advanced it, but they have charged him 3 d. interest on every shilling advanced;
in fact, if he borrowed it on Saturday morning, and reckons his work on
Saturday afternoon, that Is. or 2 s., or whatever it might be, is deducted
from the man’s wages, and 3 a. jier 1 s. is charged him for the use of that
money.
18385. Are you speaking now of large manufacturers ?
No, not large manufacturers.
18386. Of the smaller manufacturers ?
Yes.
18387. You mean that when they advance their mmney on account, they
charge a very high rate of interest for it ?
Yes. I should like, if you w'ould allow me to make a remark.
18388. Certainly?
We have in the trade various qualities of iron and various qualities of chain
to be made. Chain should be made according to the quality of the iron. In
that list which I showed you there is the common, the e.xtra, and the best,
and so on ; and in lots of instances the masters will help a man to a superior
quality of iron to be made into chain
18389. When you say “help,” do you mean that they will give it out to
him ?
The men have to go to the warehouses for the iron, and they give them out
the iron there ; they help the man to a superior quality of iron, and they do
not always tell the man what brand the iron is, but they say, “ You must make
this chain pretty fair, you know ” ; and when the man has worked the iron up into
chain for which he ought to have 6 d, or 10 c? or 1 s. or 2 5. 6 d., and in some
instances more than that, per cwt., he does not get it. If the masters were
honourable men, and told the man, “ Now" this is a certain quality of iron, and
we want a certain quality of work made from it,” that would be all right ; but
they give out the iron and have the iron worked up and then make a heavy
reduction on the man. The men know when they have the iron that it is a
superior quality, and they know that in many instances from the place that it
comes from ; it is banded up in a different way ; the band that goes round to
hold the bundles of iron has a brand on it stating whether it is “ BB, ’ that is
Best Best ; they have a system very often of taking off that band which has
this special brand on it on purpose to deceive and defraud the workmen.
18390. I do not understand clearly where the defrauding comes in. You
say that the master gives out a superior quality of iron ?
Yes.
(11.) L 2
18391. That
84
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Qth March 1889.]
Mr. Homer.
[ Continued.
1 8391 . That is to say iron that will make a superior quality of chain ?
Yes.
18392. And you mean to say that he only pays the workman for an inferior
quality?
Yes ; but he insists upon the chain being made good.
1 8393. Does it give the workman any more labour to make up a superior
chain ?
Yes, the iron is generally harder ; it does not weld so easily.
18394. Superior iron is harder to work, then ?
Yes, it requires more labour. There is a double reduction against the
the operative you see ; he has harder work to do, and he cannot make so much
of it, and he is reduced in his price from what he ought to receive for that.
18395* Does he not know that the iron is of this superior quality when he
takes it ?
He does know.
1 8396. Does he complain ?
He finds it is of very little use, for tiie simple reason which I have given you
before.
18397. Lord Thring.~\ I do not even now understand you. I thought you said
that the master defrauded the workman l)y giving him superior iron which
was harder to work, when the workman thought he had got. inferior iron ?
No.
18398. Then the workman knowinglv takes the superior iron ?
Yes.'
18399. knows what he is going to be paid for it, does he not ?
Yes.
1 8400. Then where is the fraud r
He agrees to make a superior chain cheaper than he ought to do ; that is
what you mean, is it not ?
Yes.
18401. But there is no fraud; he does it with his eyes open?
Yes.
18402. It may be a hardship, but there is no fraud?
It is quite true that the man takes the iron with his eyes open, but if the
man raises any objection to it, as I have already stated, that man perhaps
gets no more work.
18403. Yes ; but what you mean to say is that the masters unfairly beat down
the prices of the workmen ?
That is my argument.
1 8404. But you do not charge the master witii defrauding the workman in
the sense of deceiving him ?
I really cannot charge the master with anything else.
18405. But you have said you do not; a workman comes to a master and
the master gives him what you call superior iron?
Yes.
18406. Does or does not the workman know' that it is superior iron r
He does.
18407. The next stage is that the workman has to make that superior iron
into a chain ?
Yes.
18408. When he takes the iron from the master does he not know what he
is to be paid ?
Yes, he does as a rule.
18409. Then
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
85
Qth March 1889.] Mr. Homer. \_^Continued.
18409. Then if that be so, the workman is not deceived, though he may be
hardly treated ?
You may put that construction upon it if you like.
18410. It is not a “ construction.” If I make a bargain with you to sell you
a watch for a sum less than 1 ought to receive, you are not deceived ; I do not
deceive you ?
This is where the deception conies in ; the master gives it to the man for
common iron ; he does not tell him that it is best.
1 841 1 . But you tell me that the workman knows it is best ?
As soon as he begins to work it, yes, he knows ; and he knows by the
brand.
18412. You mean to say that the workman when he takes the iron does not
know that it is inferior ?
Not in every case, because this band that has the brand of the iron on is
taken off.
18413. Do I understand you to say that a man who has spent all his life in
making chains cannot tell whether the iron is superior or inferior iron r
He cannot always tell till he begins to work the iron, because as between
the common and best iron there is very little difference in its outward appear-
ance.
18414. Then i understand you to say that a workman cannot distinguish
between the different sorts of iron ?
Not always, till he conies to make it up into chains.
18415. Then you mean that the workman takes away superior iron, thinking
it to be inferior ?
Yes, when he takes it from the w'areliouse ; but when he begins to work it
into chains, he finds at times that he has superior iron.
18416. You say “ at times in nine cases out of ten can or cannot a work-
man say whether he is taking superior iron or inferior iron?
He cannot when he takes it from the warehouse.
18417. Before he works it up can a workman, who has been all his life
working at iron, tell whether the iron is superior or inferior iron ?
He cannot in every case.
18418. How often can he?
Really I am not prepared to answer that.
18419. Can he more often tell it thmi otherwise ?
No, he cannot.
18.^120. Chairman.'^] What you mean, 1 think, is this : that the man is pahi
for an inferior chain, that he is given superior iron, and therefore makes a
superior chain ?
Yes.
18421. Which causes him to do harder work
Yes, and at a reduced rate.
18422. In some cases he knows that the iron is sujierior when he takes it
from the warehouse ; in other cases he does not find it out till he begins to
work it ?
Yes.
18423. But even in the case when he knows it, you contend that he is
cheated, though he knows that lie is cheated ?
Yes.
1 8424. Earl of Derby Do I understand you to mean that there is a certain
fixed regular price for that kind of work, and when the man is offered less than
that price you consider it a fraud upon him ; is that the way you put it?
(11) L .3
If
86
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Qth March 1889.]
Mr, Homer.
[ Continued.
If I do not consider it a fraud I consider it is very mean on the part of the
employer to take and misrepre>ent the thing to the man.
18425, But are you complaining that misrepresentation is practised, or
nierel}’ that the master drives a hard bargain ?
Both of them ; there is both misrepresentation and the master drives a Itard
bargain .
18426. Lord Monkswell.^ What I understand you is, that the master
vdiile pretending to stick to the price list, in point of fact, does not do so ; he
%ivcs out one quality of iron instead of another, and the price list is different for
making up one quality from what it is for another (|uality ?
Yes, ti'at is it.
18427. You mean that the master pretends to stick to his price list, whereas
in point of fact he does nothing of the kind ?
Yes.
18428. Chairman.^ You have spoken now about superior iron being given
out; is it ever the case that iron is given out so inferior that the proper quality
of cliain contracted to be made cannot be made out of it ?
I do not know that that is apractice that occurs very often; I thought of bringing
one of our local papers, hut I found that they were all sold, in which it appears
that one of our workmen had some employer up last week before our magis-
trates at Old Hill. He went and sued the master for 3 1. damages through
having an inferior quality of iron that he could not possibly work up ; it could
not stand the fire ; it could not be worked into chain, lie could not sustain
the action to carry the 3 but the magistrates made an order for the firm to
pay him 30 5 in compensation for the very inferior quality of iron that they
helped the. men to to work into chain.
1 8429. I have a statement as to that case before me ; the magistrate made
an order for 30 5. damages and costs; is that a kind of thing that often
happens ?
No, not very often ; I never heard of a case like it before.
1 8430. 1 do not mean does it often hajtpen that a workman brings an action
and gels damages, but does the case of inferior iron being given out often
happen r
There is inferior iron in other ways given out very often. There is wire iron
made ; coils of iron sent out to wire drawers to be drawn into wire, and when
they get it they find the quality will not stand the test in Irawing it into wire;
that is sent back again, returned as condemned for that purpose. Lots of the
masters buy this iron again in their own coils at a cheaper rate than the iron
would be in bundles ; that is cut through the bend here and there, and this coil
is made into two lengths, and then it is helped out to the workers in that rough
crooked way, and they have to straighten that iron when they get home, work
it up into small chain, and they get nothing extra for it ; and then they
have to lose again in the weight of iron when it is like that, because
the employers allow a workman 4 lbs. in the shape of waste
on the half-hundredweight, because every time the iron is heated and bent a
scale comes off, which tends to reduce the weight; and then again, often a bit
has to be cut off when it is made up. The masters allow them 8 lbs. on the
hundredweight for this, and then when they get this coil iron come out there is
more waste considerably of that iron than if they were working off the regular
manufactured iron, and in this iron very often there happens to be some of it
steel that is given out for iron. Then the workers cannot possibly use it up;
the steel will not stand the fire ; it tumbles to pieces ; and then they have to
take that iron back again. 'I’hen, you see. there is a loss of time; they fetch
the iron, and then it is not what it should be. When they take it back the
employer will give them other iron in the place of it when it is steel; but you
see all this entails an extra amount of labour on the operatives, for which they
get no compensation ; and I do not know in many cases whether some of the
masters get much compensation ; but I am sorry to say that I believe many of
them
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
87
iUarc/i 1889 .] Mr. Homeu. {^Conlinued.
them give it away a<>ain in a great measure in the maiket themselves on aecount
of the keen competition amongst them.
18431. That again would be a case where there was hardship, but the work-
men would know what was going to happen r
Yes ; they know in every case what is going to happen ; but you see they are
almost helpless. If they refuse there are otliers ready to step into their shoes
and take it ; and, on the (;ther hand, in many instances there is no more work
for them in tiiat place.
18432. They get this bent iron ; they have to straighten it, and have great
waste in it, and have to submit to this loss, because if they comj)Iain they would
not get any more work, you state ?
Quite so.
18433. Duke of Norfolk^\ Yesterday there was one point in which I did not
quite see that your evidence agreed with that of the other witness. The iron is
given out from the warehouses to the workmen r
Yes.
1 8434 Then they take it away and make it into chain, the iron all the while
remaining the property of the employer?
Yes.
18435. Dues it ever happen that the wmrkman pays for the iron, and therefore
it becomes his property, and when he brings back the chain he is repaid both
for iron and chain ; does that ever happen?
I do not think it does ; 1 should not like to speak positively upon that point;
there might be cases w here a man wanted to buy 5 ewt. of iron if he has
been careful enough, and got enough money to buy it, and he might buy the
iron from the employer in that way.
1 8436. But that is not at all the practice, as I understand you ; the almost
universal practice is that the iron remains the property of the employer ?
Yes.
1 8437. It is only for the workmanship on the chain that the man is paid ?
Yes.
18438. Chairman.\ I believe you have an explanation to give?
'You wanted yesternay to know the difference between the dollied chain and
the hammered chain. I have brought some dollied chain to show you. That is
dollied {producing a chain and explaining the zvag of making of it.) The “ dolly ”
and the “ Oliver” answer the same purpose. The dolly is a light kind of a tool
that comes down on top of the chain and so smoothes it down.
18439. What is the trade description of that chain?
That is a piece of half-inch ; I have known men to make that chain, and have
for the labour 10^ d. per cwt. for it,
18440. Do you know what length would go to the cwt. ?
I could not tell you now ; but there are those who can tell you that. For
that price the men find no firing, no tools, no cairiage, or anything of the kind ;
that 10| d. is for clear labour. If 1 put down 7 cwt. of that for a man to make
in a week I do not believe there is anyone in the trade who will do it the year
round ; but it is admitted that a man doing two weeks' work in one will make
10 cwt. of it sometimes, that is 8 9 t/. ; then he would have to pay a boy or
girl 2 s. Q d. for blowing it. What has he got to live on ? They are forced to put
little children to work before their muscle is formed into bone, because every-
one must try to be a bit of a bread-winner in some way or other.
18441. Is that the largest kind of hand-made chain ?
No, they make any size.
18442. I mean, made in these domestic workshops?
No; they make up three-fourths, some of them, some of them make even
larger than that.
( 11 .) L4 i<^ 443 - What
88
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Qth Ma)‘ck 1889.]
Mr. Homer.
[ Continued.
18443. VVliat is the largest size chain made by women ?
I have seen some of them making what we call bare / -IGths ; I have never
seen them making larger, but I have heard of women making this size dollied
chain ; T have never seen it.
18444. How much smaller would be the chain you mentioned?
The bare 7 - 16 ths would be a little larger than that {producing a chain).
18445. Duke of Norfolk.l^ How long would it take to make that little bit of
2 -inch dollied chain r
It would not take many minutes when they are at it ; I know women to-day
are making chains that are called “ halter ” chains ; some call them manger
chains, what is put on tlie horses’ heads to keep them in the stables ; there are
over 50 links in them, and the women making them have to find the fire, pay
shop rent, find the tools and the carriage, having one penny for each chain ;
there would be over 50 links in the chain; that is being done to-day.
18446. What is the length of the chain ? ,
Four feet six inches to five feet.
1S447. Chairnian.~\ They are paid one penny for making a chain of five
feet ?
Yes ; finding tools, firing, and everything.
1 8448. How many could they make in a day ?
Not many.
! 8449. Duke of Norfolk.^ How long would it take to make one ?
The women employed make one, I think, in an hour, sticking close to it ; and
that is very good work, too ; not what we call the most inferior quality.
18450. Chairman.'] What would those chains be quoted at on the price list
you gave us ?
Speaking of one that a woman brought me, it would be, I should think. No. 6
on that list, and it was something like 12 links in the “ put ” ; 2 5 . per dozen that
would have been, and the woman had 1 s. per dozen.
I 8451. That is 50 per cent, discount on the price list ?
Yes.
18452. When did this occur?
Last week ; I had one of the women last week, and about a fortnight before
I had one ; I have sent them both up to London ; they are somewhere in London
now ; I do not know where.
1 8453. Then they can speak for themselves ?
They can, more efiectually than I can speak for them.
18454. Have you anything else to say ?
I could say a lot, but I do not wish to occupy your time.
18455. Do you know what the price of that manger chain in the market is ;
the selling price ?
No, I do not know . Living in a chain manufacturing district, }mu see, if we
want anything 01 that kind we can get it without going into the market to buy it.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
89
%th March 1889.
]Mr. RICHARD JUGGINS, having been re-cailed ; is further Examined,
as follows :
18456. Chairman.'] Have you heard the evidence given by Mr. Homer as
to the foggers in the small chain trade ?
Only the evidence given this morning.
18457. I you that question because in your evidence you make no men-
tion of the foggers, I think ?
No ; I do not think the question was asked me.
18458. I did not mention the name, but I asked you as to middlemen. At
Question 17754 1 said to you: “Does the workman get the material from the
master direct,” and you said, “ Yes and then I asked you, “ No intervention
of any middleman takes place,” and your answer was, “ Only the owner of the
domestic workshop to which 1 have referred is the middleman I only want to
ask you whether you have anything to say about these foggers ?
I have nothing’ further to add more than has been already stated with regard
to the system of fogging ; it is a practice very common in the district.
18459. you say you have not heard what has been stated about it?
1 have only heard Mr. Homer tliis morning and a little last night.
18460. But these foggers do exist in the small chain trade?
Yes.
18461. hordi Monkswell.] You gave us a specimen of cart-horse chain yes-
terday, and said that the price of the labour was only \ \ d.-, what would be the
price of the material ?
About 7 d.
18462. And it sells for between 5.5-. and 7 f>'-> you say r
Yes. I would like that to be understood. 1 stated that wiien I visited
London two years ago with that chain, or a similar chain, I was informed by
a saddler in London that that chain was charged 7 s. for ; while, when I visited
at Liverpool, I had it authentic from the purchaser of the chain himself that
they in Liverpool purchased t.hat chain at b s. each. I would like to explain
here briefly that in various towns there are various prices, according to the
locality. In Southport, which I visited with some samples of the same chain,
I was told in a large public meeting there by the purchasers of those chains
that they got them for about 4 .v. 6 d. to 5 s. each ; so that in Southport and
Liverpool the prices did not vary much. In London the highest price was
obtained.
18463. Earl of Derby ^ Can you account for that difference of price in
different localities ?
The only way in which I can account for it is by the conditions of the towns
or cities in which they are sold. London fetches the highest price for about
everything, 1 suppose.
18464. Chairmand] Do you know how many hands a chain would go through
before it was sold in London
I have no conception.
18465. And you do not know what price the mairnfacturer in the district gets
for it ?
I do not.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
til.)
M
90
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Qth March 1889.
The Rev. HAROLD RYLETT, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is
Examined, as follows :
18460. Chairman.^ Do you live in this district that we have been receiving
evidence about ?
I live in Dudley.
18467. How long have you resided there ?
A little over two years ar present, but I lived in the district many years
ago.
1 8468. And you know the district well ?
1 know the district very well.
18469. And you have come in contact with the operatives who work both at
the chain trade and at the nail trade r
Constantly.
18470. It would be more convenient I think to confine ourselves at present to
the small chain trade. You were not here, I think, yesterday ?
No.
18471. You have not seen the evidence that was given, then ?
No.
18472. Perhaps the most convenient plan would be if you would say anything
that you wish to the Committee on the subject of the conditions under which
the small chain trade is conducted ?
I rather anticipated that I should follow other witnesses, so that I am hardly
prepared to make a definite statement at this present moment.
1 8473. 1 will ask you a question or two on the subject of female labour, as to
the employment of women and girls in this work. It has been stated before
the Committee that the work is too laborious, and is so laborious as to be inju-
rious to health ; and a suggestion has been made that the female labour should
be restricted, and that they should not be allowed to work beyond a certain size
of chain ; have yuu any opinion on that point?
I have a very strong opinion that the employment of women in the chain
trade should certainly be restricted to the smaller sizes of chain ; and certainly
women and girls should not, I think, be engaged upon those sizes which involve
the use of the foot.
1 8474. You mean in blowing ?
I mean in blowing or in any operation whatever calling for the use of the
hammer by the foot.
18475. You mean in using the Oliver or in blowing the bellows ''
Yes.'
18476. V/hy do you think they should not be allowed to work in blowing
the bellous?
It is very difficult to say why, but I am quite sure that if your Lordship
saw it you would agree with me.
18477. Is there anything indecent ?
It is improper.
18478. You do not object on the ground of its being injurious to health !
I think it must be, but 1 am not able to give a medical opinion on that.
18479. But \ou would say that as far as you know the employment ot women
at all, especially married ivomen upon these heavier kinds of chain is injurious,
that the work is too heavy fur them to do ?
Yes.
1 8480. If
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
91
Qth March 1889.] Kev. H. Rylett. [ Continued.
184S0. If girls were not allowed to blow the bellows in these cases how
would the work be carried on ?
It is a great pity that we cannot organise them in such a way as to have a
supply of blast. If we could manage that, if we could get them into factories
and have a constant supply of blast, it would be a great advantage. I do not
see how you are to prevent the employment of young girls as blow rs aliogether.
I certainly would not allow them to be employed except under very careful
supervision.
(8481, When they are working in these family workshops, I suppose,
practically, there is no supervision ?
In some of the larger workshops known as domestic workshops (which as
your Lordship knows are not really domestic workshops, but are merely work-
shops adjoining the house), more than the family are employed frequently ;
and I have seen such workshops, perhaps three of them would go into this
room, and you would find from eight to ten, or a dozen persons employed in
each of these shops, and some of them would be young girls and some youths,
and perhaps only one man. Well the man may be out occasitinally ; and then
it appears to me that it is a pity that he is out, or that there is not some elderly
woman in.
18482. You mean supervision in that sense, not in the sanitary sense?
Just so.
18483. Then I should gather from you that for those reasons you would
agree with those who think that the work should be conducted in factories?
Certainly.
18484. You knew this district as a boy I think you said r
No, not familiarly as a boy ; I simply knew it as living in Birmingham ;
I knew it generally till I was 17 or 18 . I am not familiar with it from a
boy.
18485. You have resided there only two years ?
Yes, only two years; but I have not resided there in the ordinary sense in
which a man resides in a particular place. I have taken a very particular
interest in this subject, and made it my business to understand it.
] 8486. What other parts of the country have you resided in ?
I resided a short time in Kent ; previous to that I resided some years in
Ireland.
18487. Are you pretty well acquainted with the conditions of people working
in other trades ?
Yes, 1 may say so. I resided some years in Manchester, for instance, and
the condition of the girls in the mills there would be fairly familiar to me.
18488. Would you say that there is more immorality in this small chain
and nail making trades than in other industries with which you are ac-
quainted ?
I really should not like to say that. The way I should like to put it is this :
that the way in which the work is carried on in some of these smaller shops
facilitates, if one may say so, immorality. It seems to me to leave the girls less
protected than they ought to be.
18489. Lord Thring.'] Are they less protected than factory girls, in your
opinion ?
Yes, 1 think so.
18490. Or than the domestic workers in Manchester?
I do not know anything about the domestic workers in Mancliester ; but, of
course, we all know perfectly well that the morality of the cotton mills has
enormously improved within recent years, and no doubt it is largely due to the
improved factories themselves, and the increased supervision of those factories,
and, no doubt, also to the sense of responsibility on the part of the employers,
who, having a large establishment, take a pride in having it properly con-
1 .
( 11 .)
M 2
18491. Chairman , ]
92
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Qth March 1889.J Eev. H. Rylett.
{^Continued.
1 8^01. Chairman.'] At any rate I should gather from you that, in your
opinion, there, are circumstances incidental to these two trades which you think
tend to immorality, and which might be avoided ?
Yes, certainly.
18492. And could be avoided, in your opinion, best if the work was con-
ducted in larger shops ; in factories ?
Yes.
18493. Now as to the hours of work, are they excessive in your opinion r
Verv much so. In fact they are excessive in evei y way ; they are excessive
whether as applied to married women or to unmarried women.
1 8494. Excessive in what way ; as to the number of hours per week or as to
the irregularity of the work ?
As to both. There is a good deal of irregularity of work. It is quite a
common thing for these people to work 10 to 12 hours a day, and even 13 or 14
hours a day. I have heard of cases of that ; I have frequently gone through
this district, and it is as common as possible to find these people working in
the chain district up to eight and nine o’clock at night. In fact, you may
go through the district when it is pitch dark and there are no lamps in some
parts, and you will hear these little forges going and people working in them,
and you wonder when they are going to stop.
18495. It does not follow, however, that they have been working ever since
seven o’clock in the morning ?
When I pop in and ask them when they staited, I find that they have started
a little earlier than the same hour in the moi ning, at seven in the morning for
instance.
18496. Duke of Noi'folk,] How many days in the week would that be ?
That would be probably five or four days a week. There would be, as a
rule, less hours actually worked at the anvil, as I will call it, on a Monday than
on a Tuesday, because on a Monday the iron is fetched from the warehouses.
Of course that is part of the week’s work. Then on the Saturday it is taken
back to the warehouse in the phape of chain, so that on those two days there is
some relief from the work of the forge.
18497. Chairman?^ Is it not the custom for the iron to be brought to the
workers, and the chain fetched from them by the master ?
I believe that is done in some cases but the wmrkers have to pay. The com-
monest sight in the Black Country is to see these people carrying it from the
warehouses themselves on their owm heads.
1 8498. You think that is a general practice ?
It is a very general custom.
1 8491). M^ould it be the custom with the smaller people who have net a great
deal to carry ?
I should think so. I cannot say that I have seen many women or girls
carrying the iron on their heads in Cradley Heath ; it is a common sight in
Dudley.
18500. You said just now that they would not work .so long hours on the
Monday and Saturday, because they would be fetching the iron and taking
back the chain, and that would be part of the w'eek’s work ; of course that
would not be part of the week’s work where it was fetched for tliem ; they
would then have to pay for it ?
Yes ; there would only be the relief from the hammer and the forges in some
cases, as I have described, where people fetch their own iron.
18501. And do you think it is a common thing for women and men to work
from seven in the morning till nine at night ?
Quite a common thing, I think.
18502. Mith intervals, of course ?
With intervals for ibod and nursing the baby, a minute or two. In fact the
labour
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING S^^STEM.
93
Qth March 1889 .] Eev. H. Kylett. [Continued.
labour sometimes is so continuous on the part of these women that I liave seen
them lift the babies from the hearth and suckle them at their breasts, put them
down again and go on with their hammering.
1 8.503. Do you know what proportion the women bear to the men in the
small chain trade?
I can hardly say. 1 think I should be disposed to say that there are rather
more women than men ; I do not wish to give it definitely, but speaking from
what one might call casual observations, walking through the district, one sees
more women, or perhaps one notices more women.
1 8504. Do you know at all the kind of wages these women can earn ?
Very small ; I should think 6 ^., 6 5. 6 d. perhaps; those would be good
wages, that is to say, many women w'ould count themselves lucky if they got
that. I have met frequently with women who for a hard week’s work, what
they might call, and honestly, a hard week’s work, would get 4 s. Qd. or 5 s.
1 8505. We have had it suggested in evidence that as a matter of fact when
the wife works that is really very little benefit to the family ; that she loses as
much by not attending to her household duties, and occasionally by having to
pay for hired help, as she gains in wages ; do you think that would be the
case ?
I am not prepared quite to agree with that view; I know that is Mr. Bur-
nett’s view ; but the fact of the matter is I am afraid that some of these houses
do not require much work in them, at any rate they do not get much. You
see, when you have a house the largest room of which would be no larger than
this inner portion in which I now am, and above it two other rooms, one about
twice the size of that screen, and another about three times the size of the
screen, there is not much work to be done in it.
1 8.506. But still there is something to he done ?
Certainly.
18507. And in the case where the wife is working in the shop, who looks
after the children ?
Sometimes they pay a little girl for nursing. You want to see the thing.
Suppose this person’s house is this table, the shop is here {'pointing to
a chair close to the table), and in many instances there is a door communicating
between the kitchen and the shop, so that you step out of the shop into the
house, or out of the house into the shop, and perform the duties of one or the
duties of the other, as best you may.
18508. Am I to take it from you that in your opinion a married woman can
work these hours you have mentioned without neglecting her other duties?
No, certainly not. I do not wish to be understood as saying that these
women can work 12 or 14 hours a day in the shop without neglecting domestic
duties. But what I think is this, that the loss to the domestic duties is not so
great as the amount of money the woman would earn.
18509. Suppose her to earn 4 s. or 5 s. in the week ?
Well, I do not think she would lose that in her house; I do not think she
could earn that in her house ; I am sure she would if she could.
18510. Then I should gather from you that you do not consider it objection-
able that the married women should work at this trade?
I would rather that they did not ; I should not like to take it upon myself to
prevent them from doing so altogether. 1 object to seeing a woman working
like a blacksmith, anyhow.
18511. You object to their working beyond a certain class of work altoge
ther ; but if a woman can look after her house, and at the same time can earn
a little money by making the lighter kinds of chain, is there any objection
to that?
No more objection to that, supposing the chain is light enough, than there is
to a woman working in any other employment, and at the same time looking
after her house.
(11.) M3
18512. Do
94
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Qth March 1889.]
Rev, H. Rylett.
[ Continued.
In J employment of tlie women has any elFect upon
lowering the rate of wages ? i
Ves, it would have some.
18,513. Now, you have told us about the kind of wages that the women can
earn ; can you tell us the kind of wages that the chihlren will earn ?
You frequently find girls working as blowers at 2 s. Qd. or 3 s. a week.
18.514. They would not be children, I suppose ; they wmuld be girls; of what
age .
Twelve, or 13 , or 14 .
18,5 ',5. As to the men, you have not told us what men will earn r
I did not anticipate being called to-day, and I have left my notes of that ki nd
o thing at the hotel ; but I should say that it is not at all an uncommon th ing
for a man to work hard for a whole week and earn 8 s., 9 s., and 10 5 net. ^
18516. I suppose you are well acquainted with these people’s houses and the
conditions under which they live? ’
Yes.
18517. Have you anything that you would like to say on that point r
Well, I wish that the property owners could be brought to a sense of their
duties a little more.
18518. Perhaps you could tell the Committee something as to these people’s
circumstances ?
I was in a house only the other day, when I was looking for witnesses for this
Committee, one of these small houses ; the fireplace was a wreck, and there
had not been a bit of whitewash or anything of that kind done in that house
for seven years ; and a woman who stood near said, ‘‘ I have lived 17 years in
my house, and the landlorti has done nothing to it.” The houses, if you go
into them in some parts of the district, are simply abominations.
18519. The dwelling-houses?
The dwelling-houses, I mean.
18520. Abominations in what way?
For dirt, and particularly from the way in which the drains run past the
doors, or the filth floats over the yards of the houses in which the people
live.
18521. Do you mean that this arises from defective drainage; defective
sewering r
Certainly ; there are whole districts covered by these trades where there are
no such things as drains I believe.
18522. Earl of Derb^.~\ Is theie no sanitary inspection, then ?
Yes, so called.
18522*. It is not effective r
No.
18523. Chairman.~\ What do you mean by “so called ” ?
That it is not effective, to use Lord Derby’s words.
18524. Do you mean that the sanitary inspectors do not come round and
inspect these places, or that they do not take proper action ?
It is very difficult to say where the blame lies, for I think it was the Secretary
of the Local Government Board who said, when we complained of the outbreak
of fever at Cradley, that they could do nothing unless somebody sent them up a
complaint. Fever was raging in the district at the time, and is not cleared out
yet. I was myself, three or four days ago, in four or five houses in which there
were fever patients.
18525. What happened then ; did anybody complain r
I cannot say whether anybody complained, but attention was called to it, I
think, by Mr. Cuninghame Graham in the House of Commons ; in fact, we
made a little noise and got something done.
18526. Would
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEAT1^ G SYSTEM.
95
Qth March 1889.] Rev. IL Rylktt. [^Continued.
18526. Would noi the natural process be to make a complaint?
I suppose it would, but who is going to complain ?
18527. You, for instance?
I am not a resident. You see these sanitary authorities run into each other;
there are various sanitary authorities ; I should think there are three or four
sanitary authorities touching, this district.
18528. What particular place had you in your mind when you were speaking
of these houses that were “abominations ” ?
1 should cover at least four or five sanitary authorities in that case. I think
there are houses in Cradlev, in Cradley Heath, in the Lye, certainly in Dudley
and in Rowley and Blackheath,
18529. Then generally, as I understand you, in your opinion the houses are
filthy owing to the neglect of the landlord, not from the fault of the tenant?
Yes.
18530. And that the sanitary arrangements are defective owing to the neglect
of the sanitary authorities ?
Somebody’s neglect. I do not wish to be understood as complaining of the
medical officers of health, that is the reason of my hesitation. I believe, for
instance, that the medical officers of health of, at any rate, several of these
districts are excellent men, and would wish to have things better ; but you see
the local authorities are largely constituted of property owners.
18531. Duke of Norfolk.^ You said that when you made a little row some-
thing was done ; what was done, and who did it ?
1 took Lord and Lady Aberdeen through this pai ticular district which I have
in my mind, and then there was this disturbance about the existence of fever,
and a pump was closed in Cradley, and 1 noticed in one particular yard which
1 regard as the prize yard for filth, it had one or two of its middens covered
over.
18532. That is the extent of the improvement '
Yes, so far as I see.
18533. And what authority did that?
I jjresume the property owner perhaps has done it; I canncA imagine any
body else.
1 8534. I mean did the sanitary authorities move him ?
i expect so.
18535. Chairman.^ Are you speaking now of Anvil- yard r
Yes.
18536. Lord Thring.~\ In Cradley?
Yes.
1S537. But has Cradley an urban sanitary authority ?
Cradley is a small village, which is connected with the Stourbridge Sanitary
Authority, or at any late with a sanitary authority that is part of the Stour-
bridge Board of Guardians. Things are much mixed in the district.
1 8538, Cannot you tell me whether it is under a local board ?
It is not under a local board; it is under a rttral sanitary authority, I
think.
18539. Chairman.'] You would not agree that the general arrangement of
Cradley was good with the exception of the ashpits ?
Certainly not; exceedingly bad.
18540. Did I understand you that anything has been done in the yard to
abate the nuisances that were going on?
I do not see anything more than, as 1 say, the building up or covering in of
one or two of tlie middens. This spot is an atrocity, in my opinion. There
are people living in houses and working in chain shops within three or four
( 11 .) M 4 yards
9G
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Qth March 1889.] Eev. H. Rylett, \_Continued.
yards of foul middens, and on the day when I took Lord and Lady Aberdeen
round it happened, fortunately for me, that they were in a worse condition than
I had ever seen them in before. I was able to show his lordship what can be
done.
18541. Do you mean us 10 infer that you wished Lord Aberdeen to have an
exaggerated opinion about it ?
I wished him to have au opinion as to what could be done in that way.
18542. And T think you attribute the outbreak of typhoid fever to the
unsanitary condition ?
Certainly, to the unsanitary condition of the town generally, and specially to
the circumstance that of course the people used these public pumps which were
at the roadside, and were immediately below this yard ; and I wish to point
out in particular with reference to this matter that the filth from this yard,
a good deal of it, flows over the surface through drains that run at the back of
the house s, the backs of the houses being at the edge of the street. (The
fronts of the houses front into the yard; the backs of the houses are in the
street.) The sewage filth, and the dirt from the washings and so on of the house,
come down out through little openings about four or five yards apart, for oO or
60 yards, and they run down a gutter ; and the place is all on a hill, and they
seem all to have been made on purpose to flow towards the wells of these
pumps.
18543, Was there not considerable opposition on the part of the people to
having the wells closed ?
There was some mention of it, but 1 do not think there was much of it. The
medical officer, Dr. Turner, simply took away the pump handles, and substituted
the company’s water, or water tap. I think they kept a policeman there for a
day or two.
18544. Duke of Norfolli.] Do you mean that there was a main hard by to
which they could apply a tap ?
Yes; the company’s water is to be had in the neighbourhood.
18545. Chairman.^ You do not know whether it was necessary to employ a
policeman ?
Yes, there was a policeman, I believe. I think it was more imaginary than
real.
18546. An imaginary policeman?
JN'ot an imaginary policeman, an imaginary danger. 1 do not wish to be
positive about that. Dr. Turner is an excellent man, and I should be prepared
to support whatever he did and said.
1 8547. Lord Thrhig.'] You said that a company supplies water to this place ;
what is the company r
The South Staffordshire Waterworks Company supplies water over the
district.
1 8548. And not to these houses ?
To some of the houses. Some of the shopkeepers probably would have the
company’s water.
18549. Why has not the sanitary officer compelled the owner to supply the
water ?
The sanitary officer, I apprehend, could not do so, unless his authority bade
him do so.
18550. Then you complain that the guardians do not authorise him, because
this is very important. You have abundance of legal power to make the owner
supply proper water to these houses ?
Yes. 1 say that the local sanitary authorities do not do it.
1 855 1 . The rural sanitary authority r
The rural sanitary authorities, whoever they are.
18552. Chairman.~\
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
97
Gth March 1S89.J Kev. H. Rylett.
[ Continued.
18552. Chairjnan.^ I suppose the owners of the houses are, practically
spCfiking, the board of guardians; they are the authority?
I presume they elect their representatives.
1 8553. I should gather from you that in your opinion the sanitary condition
of the houses and the shops and the yards is very bad, but you do not appear
to throw the blame of that upon anybody'^ ?
I throw it distinctly upon the sanitary authority, but at the same time I wish
to guard myself against throwing it specifically upon the medical officers.
18554. Lord Thring^ But have the medical officers made a report and com-
plained to the rural sanitary authority of the insanitary conditions of these
places ?
I think so. I think I should not be wrong in saying that Dr. Turner,
for instance, who is the medical officer for Cradley, has endeavoured to do his
best.
] 8555. Chairman.^ Do you know whether there is any combination among
the workers to keep up the rate of wages r
Yes, there is, but the combination is far from being effective ; the people are
so poor, you see.
1855b. You mean that they cannot subscribe to an association?
No, the 3 d. a week to the union, as one of the operatives said to me yester-
day, is a loaf.
18557. Do you think they are afraid to combine to endeavour to help them-
selves, and put themselves in a better position ?
I think there is a good deal of intimidation of one sort and another through
the district.
18558. You think that the competition among the workers to get work is so
great that they are afraid of combining or doing anything that is likely to place
them in bad odour with their employers ?
Not with the better class of employers ; the larger employers of the district
are well enough disposed, and would, I think, be glad to see the men combining,
but I am afraid the smaller masters, and probably those masters who have a
good deal of outwork done, do not like it much.
18559. Did you ask any of the people to give evidence before this Com
mittee ?
I did.
18560. Did you find any difficulty in getting any of them to come ?
Oh, yes.
18561. Why?
They are afraid.
18562. That is what I want to find out ; afraid of what ?
Afraid of the consequences to themselves. One man, for instance, who I was
anxious should come, said that since he had given information to Mr. Burnett and
Mr. Oram, or had been known to be taking a rather active part in this matter,
he had been boycotted at one or two places where he had formerly had work.
And while I think of it I will just say that I have a witness here not called by
myself, but called by the Clerk of this Committee, who has been distinctly
warned by her employer to be careful what she says ; and that kind of thing is
not at all uncommon. You see this is an important point to be borne in mind
with regard to the existence of intimidation in these trades : these people are
engaged in occupations which are exclusively confined to this particular district ;
they are not like cabinet-makers, we may say, or even colliers, who can go
about from one part of the country to another ; if you are a chain-maker you
must work in Cradley Heath, or the immediate neighbourhood ; so that it is so
much more easy to spot these people ; and it is the same, of course, with regard
to the nail trade.
( 11 .) N 18563. About
98
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Qth March 1889.] Rev. H. Rylett. \_Continued.
18503. About these foggers that we have heard of, and their effect upon the
trade and condition of the people, have you any information on that point to give
the Committee r
I think this system of fogging is a very cruel system, and I think it is a pity
that any respectable master should employ foggers ; I wisli he would employ
the workpeople directlv.
i85{>4. Is the fogger not useful to those workpeople who make a small
quantity of chain, perhaps by working odd hours and so on, when they cannot
dispose of a large amount ?
He is useful, but In is hardly worth his money.
18565. How would those people dispose of their goods without him ?
I would prefer that they dealt directly with the masters.
18566. But would the masters take from them these small quantities?
They do in many cases. I am afraid that some of the larger masters who
give work out to foggers do so with a view to letting the fogger do the bating
down.
18567. We have had it alleged in evidence that masters who would not like
to go back from the regular trade price will refuse goods, and send the man to
the fogger, and eventually get the goods through him ?
That is not at all uncommon.
18568. Your general opinion altogether of the fogger is that he answers no
useful purpose in the trade r
None whatever.
18569. Is there any other outlet for women, any other trade or occupation
that women can work at in the district r
I am afraid not ; that is the trouble.
18570. If they do not work at chain or nail-making thev cannot work
at all ?
That is it. I have spent a good deal of time thinking about that, and trying
to find some way out of it, but I cannot.
18571. In your opinion is the proportion of males to females changing,
through the males leaving the neighbourhood ?
I have not met with that, but 1 should not be surprised at it.
18572. Have you any remedies that you would suggest for what you have
described, other than the transfer of the work from domestic workshops to
factories ?
I should like to see tried a system of co-operative warehouses ; I believe if we
could establish throughout the district a few co-operative warehouses (your
Lordship must understand that by the term “ warehouse” I mean a place at
which iron can !)e obtained and to which chain may be returned), and if they
were sufficiently backed up with capital, they could be so worked, that is to say,
the iron could be given out to the people, and the chain got back and
disposed of in such a successful manner as would tend greatly to checkmate
the operations of the common fogger. For instance, suppose we had a tolerably
large w arehouse of ihe kind I have described, at Cradley Heath, w^e should
immediately have associated with that waiehouse a number of the shops ; the
chain-makers having their owm shops, a number of these shops w’ould imme-
diately become, so to speak, the clients of this co-operative warehouse. Now
my point is that in case the foggers’ warehouse people did not play fair we
could strike against their warehouse, or that master, and we could probably get
a good many of the orders that he would have gut.
18573. mean by a co-operative warehouse that the profits should be
divided among the workers doing work for the warehouse ?
No, not altogether ; I think the district is a very difficult one, and the people
are very poor and very difficult to put in the w’ay of co-operation as it is carried
on in Lancashire.
1857^. But
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
99
6^/i March 1889.]
E.ev. li. Rylett.
[ Continued.
18574. But I wanted to get at what you meant by co-operatioii ?
We should require to have in this co-operative warehouse that 1 am speaking
of, in this co-operative association, the pick of the men of the district ; hut it
would not he possible, I think, to make all the workers of the district, or any
very large proportion of them actual members of the association, hut we might
give to those persons who did work for us the list price, the regular price, and
at intervals of six months or a year, we might give them a little i>onus, accord-
ing as we had earned a large or a small profit.
18575. Then what you propose is that it be started as a commercial under-
taking ?
I am afraid we could hardly manage it ourselves; but for instance, if we
could get some large subscriptions from a few noble lords we might get on.
18576. But I do not understand at all the basis on which it is to be done ; is
it to be done as a commercial or as a benevolent undertaking?
I think it requires a little of both in this case because the poor people are so
far down.
18577. If I understand you, then, you would propose, in the first place,
always to pay the regular stated prices ?
Yes, certainly.
18578. Then supposing you made a profit, of 10 per cent., what would you
propose to do with it ?
I think I would divide it between the workers and the actual members of the
association, paying interest, of course, uj>on the capital that was lent.
18579. You would propose to pay a reasonable interest upon the capital, and
anything over would be divided between the workers and the members of the
Association ?
Yes.
18580. Undertakinii always to pay the regular prices r
Yes.
18581. And if you could not make any profit at the regular prices, wdiat
then ?
I think we could ; most of the chain masters that I know have made a
profit.
18582. You have not contemplated the possildlity that your co-operative
warehouse would not be able to make a profit :
No, I cannot say that I have. Of course I do not say that this would entirely
meet the case of the poverty of the unfortunate people, because that has not met
it in other districts. My opinion is that you will have to go a great deal
further in the way of remedies for these difficulties than you have hitherto
gone. I do not believe that any of these little schemes would be of any
permanent avail.
18583. I would like to get this from you : what your ideas of the remedies
are ?
I will he perfectly candid ; I think that you will have to tax land values and
compel a freer and easier use of the land of the district and of the country. For
instance, in this very district that we are now speaking of, we have excessive
railway charges, as 1 am quite sure the masters of the district who give evidence
will tell you ; then we have mineral royalties, and difficulties of that sort.
18584. These, of course, are matters which indirectly would affect this
trade ?
Yes, they certainly would. I could have had, and would have had, with me
a report of an address by the president of the mining engineers of this district,
which was given a few days ago at Mason College, in which the president, who
is a professor in Mason College, distinctly said that the iron tratle of South
Staffordshire and that tlistrict could not possibly hope for revival, or anything
approaching revival, as long as the minerals could be got from Spain and other
countries where there are practically no royalties.
(11.) N 2
18585. Do
100
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
6M March 1889.] Rev. H. Rylett.
\_Continued.
18585. Do you mean that the condition of the iron trade generally would
affect this chain trade r
Certainly ; there is no alternative for these people.
18586. Then I may take it from you that you consider that the real remedy
for the state of things existing in these domestic trades is to be found in large
changes affecting the whole economic basis of the country ?
Certainly, the whole economic basis of the country.
18587. I will go hack for a moment to the domestic workshops; do you
think that it would be advisable that any action should be taken to put a stop
to the whole system of working in domestic workshops, and to transfer the trade
to factories ?
Certainly. If any thing of that kind conld be done, 1 believe it would be
an enormous advantage both to the people and to the trade generally.
18588. Do you think it could be advantageously done suddenly?
I do not see why it might not be. You see if it was done you would get so
many advantages. For instance, if tliese people had to work in a huge factory,
just as stall-keepers have stalls in public mai kets, the time of their working
could be regulated to a nicety. Further than that they could have all the
advantage of a blast throughout the whole building.
18589. That would serve them all ?
It would serve them all. It would abolish blouers, of course, and I really do
not know what would become of the girls ; still let us hope Providence would
take care of them.
] 8590. It has been suggested before the Committee that these so-called
domestic workshops should be put under the same regulations and rules as
apply to factories with regard to hours and so on, and that if that were done
the effect would be that the workshops would gradually disappear and the work
would be gradually transferred to factories ; do you agree witli that r
I think it would be a good thing to do it, but I am not so sore that the
workshop would tend to disappear immediately.
18591. Do you think that the people themselves would prefer working in
these domestic workshops on account of the greater liberty they enjoy there r
Too much liberty is not a good thing for them ; perhaps some of them might
demur, and no doubt some would, but I think it would be possible to persuade
them to give in.
I 8592. You think, whether they like it or not, it should stop ?
1 think whether they like it or not unquestionably it should stop. I notice
that in some of the statements that have been made on this particular point it
has been urged that a distinction should be drawn between a man who is
employing his own family, and a man who is employing some other person’s
family. 1 do not see any ground whatever for that distinction. I think that a
man who is employing his own family should be subject to precisely the same
regulations as regards factory legislation as a person who is employing some
other person’s family. Ihere is one point I want to remove misapprehension
upon. I am told 1 have been understood to say that women’s labour might be
abolished even when we have factories, and I do not wish to be understood as
saying that. If we had the factories of which I speak I think the women might
certainly be employed if the chain w^as sufficiently small ; and also 1 think in
such a iactory not only might we have the blowing done by machinery, but a
great deal of the hammering might also, 1 think, be done by machinery.
1 8593. You think that machinery could be used in sizes of chain where it is
not at present ?
Yes, 1 think it might in a factory.
18594. Now, as to other remedies. I presume, from what you have said,
you also think that something should be done in the way of better sanitary
inspection ?
Certainly,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
lOi
Qth March 1889.]
Kev. H. Rylett.
[ Covtinued.
Certainly, and also of workshop inspection. I think that tlie number of
inspectors should be increased undoubtedly.
18595. Is there anything else in the way of a remedy immediately affecting
these trades that you would suggest ?
No, I think I c;mnot add to what I have said.
18596. We have had some evidence as to various ways in which it is alleged
that the workers are defrauded, for instance as to the sizes of the chains they
make ; have you anything to say on that point ?
Yes, there is I believe a great deal of unfairness practised towards the workers
in the matter of different sizes of chain ; you can hardly call it fraud I suppose,
because the people are perfectly well aware of it, but as I have already pointed
out, the intimidation has developed into such a fine art in this particular district
that the people are perfectly helpless in the matter.
18597. How does the unfairness come in ?
It comes in in this way ; a fogger, say, will get iron from a master, and he will
have in his shop not only the hearth at which he works himself, but he will
have four or five other hearths, and these hearths he will frequenily let to
persons. There is a sort of general rule that any person renting one of these
hearths, or occupying one of these hearths, should pay one-fourth of the amount
earned ; that is to say, for every shilling earned the proprietor of the shop should
deduct 3 d. for stallage, as it would be called (these things are called stalls). I
know of instances, and I have met with instances in which the employer would
charge more than that ; and not only would he charge an excessive price for
stallage, but he would give the person occupying that stall one size of iron to
work, and would pay for a different size of iron. For instance 1 have in my
hand the chainmakers revised 4 s. list. If your Lordship has a copy and would
have it in front of you, I could make it clear. It is the one which was put in
yesterday. I will ask your Lordship’s attention to the first column, called there
“Slap dash chain” (that is Mr. Homer’s diction, not mine), and if you will
pursue the column down you will find the figures 6, 5 , and 4 . Opposite the
figure 6 you will find 17 s.; opposite the figure 5 , 13 5. 6e the extension, ibr instance, of the use of
land, or of the use of minerals in one particular locality ; it must be the exten-
sion of tluir use in all localities, at any rate in our country.
18659. I wxmld ask you a question as to the women ; is it considered in your
district that in a given time the women workers perform more work than the
men in the same time, considering the difference in the rate of pay, if there is a
difference in the rate of pay ?
1 am hardly able to say. I think you might possibly get an answer to that
question from a witness vho will succeed me, Mr. Priest. Some of the women,
and particularly some of the girls, are marvellously expert, and certainly are able
to work very quickly.
18660. Lias there been an improvement in the general condition of work in
the district since public attention has been direettd to it?
Yes, I think so ; 1 think that the little irritation amongst some of the masters
is a sign of that, and moreover, we have had some little improvement in Anvil
Yard, which your Lordship visited and found so pleasant.
1 8661. In the matter of sanitary arrangements?
In the matter of sanitary arrangements.
18662. Chairman?^ It has been alleged that the operatives are, practically
speaking, to all intents and purposes, compelled to buy from shops that belong
to the logger or the fegger's lelatives ; is that the c ase in your opinion ?
It is ; 1 think not so much with regard to provisions in this district ; I have
not bc( n able to trace anything of that kind, but it is not at all an uncommon
thing for a logger to keep a beershop, and to keep his people waiting, for
instance, an hour or two, and there is a sort of undefined expectation, if I may
use the term, that while the unfortunate operative waits the loggers’ convenience,
he shall drink the logger’s beer.
18663. Do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
107
6th March 1889.] Rev. H. Rylett. \_Continued.
18663. Do you mean that you believe that if the men did not use the
fojojger’s public-house they would not get work from the fogger?
Ves.
18664. But in your experience that is not the case in provision shops?
I cannot say that there are any provision shops in Cradley Heath. You are
referring to the chain trade as a whole, of course ?
1866.5. Yes ?
The chain trade is carried on also in the Lye, and there may be one or two
provision shops in that district to which this would apply ; but I am not pre-
pared to say that it is a common thing for provision shops to be owned by
persons or relatives of persons who are foggers in the chain trade ; it is not
uncommon in the nail trade. These things are widely scattered over the
district. I know one place at Dudley Port ; 1 know a rather large place at
the Lye, and one or two places in Cradley Heath, and there are other districts in
other trades where the same thing obtains.
18666. I will postpone any questions about the nail trade till later on, and I
do not wish to ask you any questions on the large principles of political
economy involved, but I will take it from you that as far as any immediate
remedy practically affecting this particular trade and district goes, you think it
ought to lie in the direction of better sanitation, the organisation of people in
factories instead of working in workshops, whereby they would be better able to
combine and j)rotect themselves, and would be under better sanitary conditions,
and would have some of the manual labour done by machinery, and the
elimination of the middleman or fogger?
Yes.
1 8067. Have you anything you wish to add ?
I should like to say that as the result of my own inquiry into these things J
find that it is not at all uncommon that iron has to be changeil ; and I should
like to mention that one of the reasons why 1 think probably there is less
resort to law than there otherwise would be is the circumstance that the magis-
trates are most of them masters.
18668. What has that got to do with the changing of iron ; will you just
explain what you mean by the changing of iron ?
Take this case which was brought into court last week. The iron was bad
iron; bad iron is given out to an operative, and it frequently happens that he
must change this iron. Now here is a case in which a man got a quantity of
iron which was bad, and he sued the person who gave him the iron to recover
compensation for the loss he had sustained in the working of this bad iron. I
want to point out with regard to that that it is only one man in a thousand in
this district who would have the nerve to bring his employer into court, simply
because he would be bringing his employer before his employer’s friend, who
would be a magistrate.
18669. Could he not sue him ; and then it would not be a magistrate ; he
could sue in the County Court?
No, this was before a couple of magistrates.
I 8670. First of all, I would like to ask you this : You say that the iron has to
be changed ?
Yes.
18671. We have had no evidence on that point?
You will have some evidence on it. I may state generally that it is not an
urmommon thing for masters to give out iron of a certain quality and to require
a superior quality of work than that iron will give, thus compelling the
operative to go to another warehouse to change the bad iron for good at an
expense of at least 6 d. or 7 d. per bundle, that is not at all an uncommon
practice.
(1 1.) 0 2
18672. Lord
108
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Qth 3I(irch 1889 .]
Rev. H. Rylett.
[ Continued.
^!^672. Lord Crtjford of Chuclleigh^ Why should he necessarily go to another
warehouse ?
He may go back to the same one if he likes.
18673, Chairman.'] I understand you to say that in your opinion one reason
why the operatives do not avail themselves of the law is that they do not think
it is any use bringing their employers before other employers ?
I think they might have more confidence in availing themselves of the law if
we had, say, a stipendiary magistrate.
18674. But yon do not know why, in this particular case, the action was not
brought in the County Court?
No, I do not ; i have not looked into it in that regard yet ; I have simply
picked the piece out of the newspaper. You had before you a witness this
morning who tried to make yon understand how a bad chain was made from
good iron. The best chain requires a good deal more hammering, more blows
to the link than common chain does, no matter what the quality of the iron.
If the quality of the iron is good, a good chain requires to be well hammered.
Perhaps your Lordships will allow me, after you have heard some of the other
witnesses, if 1 think that some of them do not quite make things clear, to have
an opportunity of explaining them.
18675. Lord Thring.] The particular case in question vras before the magis-
trates, but they gave judgment in favour of the man ?
Yes.
1 8676. Then that was an exceptionally good bench, you think ?
Yes ; that has been an agreeable surprise to us all.
1 8677. Are you also aware that the same man might have sued in the county
court if he had liked ?
I am not a lawyer, and so I cannot answer that question.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
BENJAMIN PRICE, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is
Examined, as follows :
18678. Chairman.] What is your business r
I am a chain-maker.
18679. Where do you live?
I live at Cradley Heath.
18680. Have you got a shop of your own?
Yes.
I 8681. How many are working in the shop ?
Three beside myself.
18682. Members of your own family?
There is one of my own family working, a brother, and the others are females,
who are not of my own family.
18683. How long have you been in that business ?
Over 30 years.
18684. Do you make all kinds and qualities ?
No, I only make a few sorts.
18685. What sorts do you make ?
About three or four sorts.
18686. Can you tell us what they are ?
I make No. 1 to bare 7 - 16 ths.
18687. How
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
109
Qth March 1889.]
B. Price.
[ Continued.
18687. Jiow much do you make iu a week, say ?
That depends upon the sort that I make.
18688. 1 want to get from yon, for the information of the ( ommitiee, if I
can, what the general amount of the work you do during the week is r
It I make bare 7 - 16 ths, I should make about 3 cwt, per week.
18689. What would you get for that ?
About 15 s.
1 8690. That would be 5 s. per cwt. ?
Yes.
18691. Do you get your iron straight from the large master or buy it from
what is called a fogger ?
I get it from the master.
18692, How often do you take it out?
That depends ; I have to finish the one lot before I get another out; some-
times a week, sometimes a fortnight.
18693. You take out your iron perhaps once a week, perhaps once a fort-
night ?
Yes.
1 8694. Do you make it all up in your own shop, or put any of it out to be
made elsewhere ?
In the smaller sizes I put a little bit out.
18695. What sizes would that be?
That would run down to three or four sizes, perhaps five or six sizes ; it
depends upon what sort of an order I get when 1 go to the warehouse.
1 8696. I want to know how you describe these small sizes which you some-
times put out you say ?
Sometimes I get No. 10 out, sometimes No, 8, No. 7 , or No. 6.
1 8697. Say No. 10 , what do you pay for that when you put it out ?
It is according to the price I receive at the warehouse.
18698. What is the price you receive at the warehouse ?
You see we have been so up and down of late that we really do not know
what we are going to get till we have the order.
18699. What was the last order for the No. 10 that you executed; what did
you get for it ?
It is a little time since, if I remember right, it would be about 2 /. 13 5. per
cwt.
18700. What did you pay for it?
I do not know ; it has been so long since I have had any of it ; it has been
a matter of 12 months since I have had any of that.
18701. When did you last put out any work of any kind ?
Last week.
1 8702. What was that ?
No. 5 , 3 - 8 ths.
18703. What did you pay for that?
You see there is a little difficulty in that ; it depends upon who the master is,
and what length of link it is.
18704, What I wanted to get from you was how' much you paid for this last
order tliat was put out to the person who made it for you ?
It should be eight-link, an eight link-twist. There are different kinds of work
made, and I should give 4 s. per cwt. for that.
18705. You gave 4 s. per cwt. to the woman who made it ?
To the man ; it is a man’s work.
(11.) 03
1 8706. What
110
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Qth March B. Price. {^Continued.
18706. What did you get for it from the manufacturer ?
I get 4 5. 6 c?.
18707. And your profit would be 6 u a chainmaker ?
Yes.
18818. Have YOU a shop of your own r
No.
1 8819 Then I presume you rent a stall in some shop ?
Yes, in .Mrs. Addleton’s shop.
18820. What do you pay for the rent of your stall ?
Fourpence a week.
18821. Do )'ou work alone ?
Yes.
18822. Nohody to blow for you ?
No.
1 8S23. What size chain do you make ?
No. 1.
18824. piece of the chain with you, have you ?
No.
1 8825. Have you always made the same size and quality of chain
Yes ; sometimes I make a little 5 - 16 ths to oblige the master.
18826. Is it the best quality or common chain that you make ?
Common.
18827. How do you get the iron ?
I have it of Mrs. Addleton a cwt. at a time ; when I want some I have it
from her.
18828. Then what do you do with the chain?
When I have made it 1 take it in and weigh it.
(IE) P 3
Lord Sandhurst.
Lord Monkswell.
Lord Thring.
Lord Basing.
18829. Do
118
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
1th March 1889.] Mis. Parish. [ Continued.
18829. Do you take it yourself to the master ?
No, 1 take it in to Mrs. Addleton.
18830. Do you make for her altogether ?
Yes.
18831. What does she pay you for the chain ?
Six shillings and sixpence.
18832. That is the present price?
Yes.
1 8833. Is that the same price as the large masters are giving ?
I think she has 7 t ; we have got to straighten the iron in
that.
IQ057. You said that you get 10 6\ G d. for No. 4 , 13 . v. for No. 5 , and 28 s.
for No. 8 ?
Yes.
19058. Do you know what the men you sell them to get for them?
No, 1 do not ; more than what they give us.
19059. Do you know wliat the list prices are ?
In the 4 s. list No. 4 is 15 5. 6 d., I think
1 9060. And No. 5 ?
No. 5 , I do not know whether it is 17 s. Qd. or 18 s. ; but I know that is
near the mark.
19061. At any rate, do }’ou know that the list prices are much higher than
the prices you get ?
Yes, that is the reason Mr. Hartshorne w’ould not give rue any, because he
could buy it of Mr. Griffith for less.
19062. Who is Mr. Hartshorne ?
Of Primrose-hill.
19063. Is he a large master ?
Yes, he has got a big firm.
19064. Do I understand you that he would not give you tire work because
he could get it cheaper from someone else ?
Yes, he told me he could; then I had to get it where 1 could get it from.
19065. Then you had to get it from another man, who takes it to this Mr.
Hartshorne ?
Yes.
19066. What does it cost you for your firing ?
It is 10 rf., sometimes 1 sometimes more if I can do more work. I have
a child, and if there is anything wrong with the child I cannot make so
much.
19067. How much of this No. 4 chain would you make in a week ?
1 might make a bundle sometimes.
19068. That is half a cwt. ?
Yes, 56 lbs., half a cwt. ; hut a bundle .of iron does not make 56 lbs., but
52 ; if there is any waste out of it you have to pay for that.
19069. You can make a bundle a week, you say .'
YTs, 1 can, and a little more sometimes.
19070. How much does your firing cost you in that week ?
Tenpence or 11 c?.
19071. What would you put down for the tools r
My husband does my tools, what bit I want doing to them.
19072. But, I suppose, if he was not doing that he could be doing something
else ?
But doing his own work he has to do it on his own lot.
(11.) K
19073. You
130
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Tth March Mrs. Tibbetts. \_Continued.
^9073* ^ ou do lict know how much you ought t>» put down a week for the
repairing of tools ?
I do not pay for them 10 be done, because my husband does them ; but he
does fonie for several women whose husbands do not make chains.
19074. How much of the No. 5 and No. 8 chain do you make ?
1 could not make a bundle of it in a week, not to clo my work in the house
and attend 10 the children ; if I was to do that I should have to work 14 or 15
hours a day.
19075. blow many hours a day do you generally work?
About 8 or 9 , sometimes more than that.
1907b. How many children have you got ?
Five.
19077. Do you pay anybody to look after the children?
No, I look after them myself.
19078. And do this work into the bargain ?
Yes.
19079. Is your husband at the same business ?
Yes.
19080. Working in the same shop?
No, he works at a distance away from me, in another shop.
IQ081. You said something about straightening the iron ?
I have to straighten it myself, or get my little l/oy to straighten it.
19082. Do }ou often get the iron crooked?
Yes, sometimes. 1 have got some now.
19083. And the master makes no allowance to you for that?
No.
19084. Though it gives you a great deal more work ?
Yes ; it is a lot of trouble to straighten No. 8.
19085. Do you ever refuse to take bent iron ?
I do not have it unless I am obliged to have it.
1908b. I suppose if you were to refuse to take it, you would not have any
work at all from that master ?
No ; if I did not take what he had an order for ; he says, “ I have an order
for this,” and, of course, you have to take it.
19087. Is the iron you get always the right size ?
Not always.
19088. Do you mean that you will get iron that is not the proper iron to
make the kind of chain that is ordered ; does that ever happen to you your
self ?
No, not since we h/ave begun playing so long ; since the strike we have had
a better size of iron
19089. Before the strike did you use to get iron that was not the right
size ?
Yes.
19090. Frequently?
Not frequently.
19091. Sometimes?
Yes, and then they would say, “ Perhaps it is a mistake, we will give you
bigger next time.”
19092. When you got it I suppose you knew it was wrong?
Such as me have not gauges, but when I get home and begin to work it 1
can tell by the tongs I make it with.
190Q3. How
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
131
1th March 1889 .]
Mrs. Tibbetts.
[ Continued.
IQOPS- How far have you to go to get your iron ?
About ten minutes’ walk.
19004. Do you carry it yourself r
Yes.'
1909.5. When you get it you have not got a gauge, so you cannot be quite
certain whether it is right or wrong in the size r
No.
19096. But when you begin to work it you find whether it is right or
wrong ?
Yes.
19097. And lately they liave been more careful, have they ?
Yes, since the last strike.
19098. Do I understand that the iron is not good enough, or that it is so
good that you make a better article than you get paid for?
There are different sorts of iron ; there is good iron, and there is best iron.
I brought a piece here, but some gentleman has got it outside.
19090. Some of the iron you get is too small ?
Yes, some of it is small.
19100. Then you would have to put more links?
Yes, or else the chain looks longer than it ought to be ; I make it what it
ought to be ; I do not put any more links to the foot. For No. 5 they reckon
to put 20 in a loot.
19101. Supfjosing you only get No. 4 iron ?
Some put 18 in No. 4 ; some put 19 .
19102. I will suppose that you get an order to make No. 5 chain ; you say
that sometimes you have not got the proper iron ; you say that you only get
iron to make No. 4 ?
If we get iron sometimes to make No. 4 , and it is small, we are at the loss,
and then, perhaps, lie sells it as No. 5 , and it is his gain and our loss.
19J03. I do not understand that, because it assumes that you can make the
No. 5 chain out of No. 4 iron ?
You cannot make No. 5 out of No. 4 ; if they give us No. 4 , and it is small,
we have to make it to No. 4 ; but when it is so very small, they sell it for No. 5 ;
they will not part with it for No. 4 .
19104. That is to say, that you get paid for a larger chain, a heavier chain,
and thev sell it for a smaller chain ?
Yes, they sell it for lighter.
19105. Do you ever get iron that is too good ?
Some of it is very hard to work.
19106. Superior iron is harder to work than the common iron ?
Y es.
1Q107. But it makes a better chain?
Yes. ■
19108. Do you ever get that superior iron instead of the common irou'^
Yes.
19109. And that would give you harder work ?
Yes, it is a deal harder work.
19110. Then you make a better chain than you get paid for r
Yes.
19111. This iron you have to straighten is iron that has been in coil, and then
has to be cut in lengths ?
Yes, and then we have to straighten it.
(11.) R2
19112. How
132
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
1th March 1889.] Mrs. Tibbetts. {Continued.
19112, How niucli difference does it make ; how long would it take anybody
to straighten a bundle ?
It would take an hour-and-a-half, from that to two hours to straighten a
bundle of No. 8 ; it is very small you know.
19113. I think you said that your husband was not working at this trade?
Yes, he is.
191 14. Has he got a shop of his own ?
No.
K)!!.'',. What does he earn ?
He can get 14 or 15 s. now.
19116. What do you suppose he earned all last year?
I could not tell you ; not a great lot.
19117. The prices are a good deal better now, are they not ?
Yes, better than what they have been.
19118. Have you got a house of your own, where you and your husband and
children live ?
Yes.
191 iq. And this brew-house, the shop, belongs to the house 'f
Yes.
191 2t). What do you pay for the house and shop ?
Two shillings and ninepence a week.
19121. How many rooms have you got?
Two rooms.
19122. Two rooms on the ground-floor and nothing above them, do you
mean ?
There is the room we live in on the ground-floor and then -there are two
rooms above.
19123. How old is your eldest child ? ,
She is a girl of nineteen.
19124. Is she working ?
Yes.
19125. How many have you got working
Two.
19126. What is the other one ?
Tlie boy is fifteen.
19127. The eldest is a girl?
Yes ; and one boy is fifteen.
19128. Is he working in a chain shop ?
Yes.
19129. What does he earn ?
I do not know ; sometimes it might be 5 s. or 6 ; I do not know exactly,
but that is about as much as he does get.
19130. Some of the other witnesses have told us that their food is principally
bread and tea and bacon ; is that the case with you too ? .
We have had worse than that.
19131. Bread and tea without bacon ?
Yes ; we have had to live with bread and a drop of tea ; but lately they have
given us a trifle more; and then we had to apply to the mercy of gentlemen to
give it to us.
19132. How'
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
133
1th March 1889.] Mrs. Tibbetts. \_Continned.
19132. How long have you lived in this house ?
Fifteen to 16 years. ’
19133. I^iitd of condition is it in ; clean and comfortable ?
Theie is not much diderence between that and the shop that I work in.
19134. How about the drainge ?
Tliere is uo drain from my house; we throw the water down, and it runs
anywhere ; it goes down afore the people’s doors, and has to get out how it
can.
19135. Where is your house ?
Tibbett’s Gardens.
19136. Is that in Cradley ?
Yes.
19137. Then vou sav that the condition of the house and shop is very bad?
Ye.s!
19138. Have you ever had any illness in your family ?
Yes, many a time ; we have bad the measles and fever a good bit some-
times.
19139. Bvoicnlow.'] When you get your iron is it weighed before you?
No.
19140. You have to trust to the person who gives it you ?
Sometimes we are out when it is brought and we do not know how heavy it
is when v\e have it.
19141. But when the chain is taken back it is weighed ?
Yes, when it is taken back.
19142. Do vou see it weighed?
Yes.
19143. And you are paid by the weight ?
Yes.
IU134. You say you give 2 s. 9 d. for rent ?
Yes.
19145. I that the usual rents in the neighbourhool ?
That is what I have paid ever since I have lived in the house.
19146. Is that the usual sort of rent that your neighbours pay ?
My other neighbours are 3 ne, and 1 said I could not pay him more rent unless somebody
raised me my wages a bit.
19168. What weight hammer do you use in making the No, 4 chain ?
One hammer might be 2 lbs., and the other 2^ lbs. or 3 lbs.; I cannot say
exactly, 1 never weighed them.
19169. ]\^ onkswell.~\ How^many of you hve in your house ?
Seven wiih me and my husband; five children.
1 9 1 70. And you have four rooms ?
Two rooms upstairs, and one doan.
19171. In two rooms upstairs seven of you live together ?
Yes.
19172. Do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
135
1th March 1889.] Mrs. Tibbetts. [Continued.
IU172. Do \ou know what is the weight of the hammer for ^o. 3 ; is it very
much heavier than No. 4 ?
I never change my hammers.
19173. Vou never do No. 3 yourself ?
Yes, 1 have No. 3 to make.
19174. And f.r No. 3 you only use a hammer weighing 3 lbs. ?
Yes.
191 ,5. A. witness just now told us that her hammer weighs 7 Ihs.
She/does not know the weight ; she has put a big gauge on, but it is too
much r
191 76. Chairman.] You think her evidence is not correct upon that point '
Not in the hammers ; but she is to be e.xcused for that. Her hammers would
be bigger than mine in that case, and my hammers are big enough ; but the
fact is, she would not know the real weight.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mrs. EMMx\ PARSONS, is called in ; and having been sworn,
is Examined, as follows :
19177. Chairman.~\ Have you heard the evidence that was given by the last
two witnesses ?
No.
19178- You were not in the room ?
No.
KI179. Are vou a chain maker.
Yes.
19180. What kind of chain do you make ?
From No. 3 to No. 8 ; the largest size 1 make is No. 3 .
1918]. Have you a shop of you own ?
No.
19182. Then you hire a stall ?
1 pav 6 d. a week for a siall, and 1 pay for two hearths, one for my mother
and one for me. I pa}'’ 1 .s. a week for the two.
19183. How many people work in the shop?
Only two.
191 84 Only your mother and yourself?
Yes.
1918^. Is it close to your home ?
No, I have got about 40 or 50 yards to walk.
iqi86. What kind of a shop is it ; ( lean and comfortaqle ?
It is very low, you can touch the top ; it is very low and close, and very hot.
IQ187. Do you mean that you can touch the top with your hand?
Yes.
1(^1 88. And it gets very hot from the heat of the fire ?
Yes.
19189. And you pay 1 s. a week, and that finds you in stall and tools, and
everything.
Yes.
19190. How do }ou get your iron ?
(11.) R4
From
136
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
1th March 1889 .] Mrs. Parsons. [Continue d.
From a master, as I call him, but he is not a master. I have not a
master; the masters will not give me any work; I have had one; but they
will not find work for single hands ; they tell us they can buy it cheaper all
together. I have to get it from a fogger.
19191. You mean that the large masters will not be bothered to give you
out the small quantity that you can do ?
No.
19192. And, therefore, you have to get it from what is called a fogger?
Yes.
19193. What prices do you get for chains from a fogger ?
For the No. 5 that 1 have been making for a month now it is 13 5. the
cwt. ; but you must understand that it is No. 6 ; they give it for No. 5.
19194. What ought you to get for the No. 6 chain ?
Seventeen shillings, and I only get 13 5.
19195. When you take the iron you know that it is the wrong size, do
you?
Not till I get it home and open it. Sometimes I go back to him and tell him
the iron is small, and he tells me he will satisfy me when I bring it in,
but he does not give me any more.
19196. But you still go on working for the same man ?
Yes.
19197. Why do you not go to someone else ?
Because the masters will not buy from me. When I go to a warehouse and
mention the list price they tell me that they can buy it of Mr. Williams cheaper ;
“ We do not care about buying of single hands at all because we can buy all
the lot cheaper.”
19198. Why do you not go to some other fogger r
They are most all alike, there is not much ditlerence in them.
19199. How much of No. 5 do you make in a week ?
If 1 work hard I make half a cwt,
1 9200. A bundle ?
Yes.
19201. What would you call working hard ?
I have got to work from seven to nine regularly.
19202. And working that length of time you make a bundle, half a cwt.
Yes.
19203. That is to say, half a cwt. of iron, but not half a cwt. of chain ?
No, it is 4 lbs. less in the bundle.
19204. Do you ever find tliat with the iron you get there is not enough to
make the proper quantity of chain ?
Yes, I am often 2 lbs. out in a bundle, besides the allowance.
1920';. Then vou lose that too ?
Yes. '
19206, Do you complain about it ?
Y es.
19207, What do they say ?
I tell him “ I do not not know how it is but I have weighed this chain
before I came here, and it is 2 lbs. less according to you ; ” he asks me what
I have weighed it with, and 1 say, “ A machine the same as you have.”
19208. Have you got a machine.-'
No, I have not ; but I take to have it weighed, and pay a halfpenny.
19209. Where
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
137
1th March 1889.] Mrs. Parsons. \^Contmncd.
19209. Wliere do you take it to have it weighed ?
Tibbett’s ; that is a chain shop, and he has got a main yard.
19210. And when you take it to the shop you sell it at you find that it
weighs different ?
Sometimes 1 lb., and sometimes 2 lbs. less.
19211. Do you see it weighed yourself at the shop you sell it at
Yes ; 1 tell him to push the ball back on the machine, but he does not take
any notice.
19212. Do you ever get the iron coiled
Yes.
19213. Then you have to straighten it ^
Y'es.
19214. Does that often happen ?
Not like it used to be; there is not much of it now. I have had to straighten
a lot in my time.
19215. And do you get any allowance for having to straighten it?
No.
19216. Is there much difference in the quality of the iron you get ; is it
sometimes had and sometimes good ?
Very bad, the coil iron is.
1921 7. Do you mean that it is bad besides the fact that it is not straight; is
the iron itself good ?
No, it is not ; sometimes the eoil-iron is very flat.
19218. And then you would have to work to make it round, too ?
Yes. When it is flat like that, it destroys the tongs that we hold the
links in.
19219. And I suppose some kinds of iron give yon a great deal more labour
to make chain of than other kinds ?
Yes, because it is not round.
19220. But you have to take it just as you get it?
Just as it comes.
19221. Have you a husband ?
Yes.
19222. Does he work in the same trade ?
No, I am newly married ; I have not gone to live with him yet.
19223. What is his trade ?
He is a rivet maker.
19224. I suppose you and your mother have been living together?
Yes, since my father died.
19225. What do you pay for your house ?
Two shillings and sixpence a week.
1 9226. There is no shop belonging to your house ?
No.
19227. Do you generally get as much work as you want to do all the year
round ?
Yes, now ; it is betier now than it was ; it was very bad, but it is a little
better now.
19228. But can you always get work at some kind of price or other r
Yes.
19229. Take all last year ; were you working all last year :
Yes.
(11.) S 19230. The
138
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
1th March 1889.] Mrs. Paesoxs. {Continued.
19230. The whole year ?
Yes.
1Q231. And ihe year before that?
No, it was \ ery bad then.
19232. That is what I want to find out ; does it sometimes happen that there
is no work at all to do.
Yes ; sometimes there is none at all to do.
19233. Do you «:et your groceries aud provisions and things from shops
belonging to these foggers?
No ; not now, but 1 have done.
19234. ^Vhy do you not ?
Because tliey have stop['ed it ; they have had up the man that I worked for.
There was a tune when J never had anything in money; we had to have it in
groceries or flour, or what provisions he had in the house.
19235. You mean that you had to take your wages in groceries?
We would take the chain, and had to have groceries instead of money.
1923C. And this man was had up, was he r
Yes.
19237. \Vhen was that?
Two years since.
19238. Do you know who had him up?
Mr. Bassano, the magistrate ; one of my fellow workmen made complaints to
the magistrate about this man giving flour instead of money, and he had
him up.
{ 9239. Why did you deal with that man at that time ?
The work then was very bad ; we had something to do to get a bundle, and
we were glad to have it of anybody.
19240. Do you mean that because you bought things from this man he gave
you work to do ?
YYs ; he would always find me some if we had it in groceries.
19241. Could you get as good value for your money with Iflm as you would
at any other shop ?
No.
19242. And now the shop you deal with has nothing to do with any of these
foEgers ?
No.
19243. Lord Monksn'ell?\ Do 1 understand you to say that you only pay U.
for two stalls, firing, and tools t
1 pay for my own firing as well.
19244. Do \ou pay 1 s. for each stall?
Sixpence a piece for each stall, anti I pay for my own firing ; it costs me
2 5. 3 t?. a week for two of us besides.
19245. And the tools, how much do they cost you ?
For the gleeds and the firing and the stalls it is 3 5. 3 altogether, but my
mother does not make so much work as me.
19246. You and your mother between you have to pay 3 s 3 d. out of your
earnings altogether ?
Yes.
19247. Do you find that the uork hurts your hand ?
' Sometimes, according to the iron ; sometimes it is very hard and we cannot
weld it.
19248. Have
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
139
Itk March 1889.] Mr«. Parsons. \_Continued.
1Q248. Have you to go to the doctor and have your hands looked to some-
times ?
No, I have never had the doctor to see them.
19249. Chairman.'] Do you know the weight of the hammers you use ?
From 2 lbs. to 2 h lbs. and 3 ^ Ihs. my hammers are.
19250. Three and a-half lbs. is the heaviest?
Yes ; mother does not make as much work as me, she is 61 vears of a2:e ?
19251. Aow much does she do?
Three parts of a bundle sometimes.
19252. What do you suppose she can earn ?
She can earn abiiut 2 s. 3 d. a week, when she paid her firing.
19253. What can you earn when you have paid your firing ?
Four shillings and nine-pence.
19254. That is working from seven till when?
From .seven till nine.
19255. Does your moiher work the same hours too ?
Yes.
19256. hard AIortlcsu'elL] YTu take two hours I suppose for meals, and half-
an-hour for breakfast?
Half-an-hour for bi eakfast, and an hour for dinner, and half-an-hour for tea.
19257. If you work to seven you have tea after hours, I suppose ?
^\'e never knock orf at seven except sometimes on Monday nights.
19258. We have had it in evide nce that if a woman works from seven to seven
she has her tea after her work is finisheil ?
Yes.
10259. Chairma 7 i.] Id ow long have you lived in the house you are living in
now ?
Five months and a fortnight.
10260. Are you satisfied with the condition in which it is ; is it clean and
so on?
Well, our house is very clean.
10261. Do you ever get any money on account from the man you work for?
No.
10262. You get paid I suppose on Saturday ?
Yes.
19293. Do you never get any money from him otherwise?
Not till we have done the work.
19264. Do you have to cany your iron yourself:
Yes, take the chain on my neck.
19265. How far have you got to carry it :
About a quarter of a mile.
19:66. Loid Sandhurst.] Y'^ou have lived, I suppose, at Cradley, all your
life ?
All my life.
10267. Did ycu ever hear of anybody called a sanitary inspector?
No; I have known a man named Brewer, an inspector, for many years.
19268. Y'hatishe?
I only knew he was an inspector.
19269. What of?
C)f the hours of the chainmakers.
(11.) s 2
9270. He
140
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Ith March 1889.] Mrs. Parsons.
[ Continued.
19270. He is a factory inspector, you mean ?
A factory inspector.
19271. But vou never heard of such a person as a sanitarv inspector ^
No.
19272. Lord Motikswell.'] Is there much fever in your neighbourhood ?
Well, it has been very bad in Cradley.
19273. Wdiat sort of fever ?
Typhoid fever.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
SAMUEL PRIEST, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is E.vamined,
as follows :
19274. Cttairman,'] Are you a chainrnaker r
Yes.
1927.5. How long have you been so ?
Nineteen years.
19276. Do you work in a shop of vour own ?
No.
19277. You rent a stall ?
Yes.
19278. What do you pay ?
Three-pence a week.
19279. What do you j)ay for your firing and things?
Mine will really average 2 a. 3 d. per week.
19280. How many work in the same shop with you ?
Two besides myself.
19281. Do you do all the work at your own stall yourself ?
My o\Mi work.
19282. You have nobody to blow for you?
I have no one to blow for me.
19283. Do you make all kinds of chain ?
Any odd work; what we call “country work that is that kind of a hack
band you saw yesterday, and cart traces, and what we call tug chains, and
sometimes 1 make hammered work up, say as three-eighths exact; I do have
to work up as high as nine-sixteenths iron in making what w'e call hooks and
swivels for the cart traces.
19284. That latter would be superior work, I suppose ?
I'hat is so.
1028.5. But w’hat you are generally making are the various chains which you
include in what you call “ country work ” r
Yes, I finish them complete.
19286. What do you get paid for that?
For cart traces at the present time 1 am getting 5 a. 6 d. per cwt. Tlie same
price will apply to back-bands ; for tug chains I should get so much per cwt.,
that IS to say, 5 a. G d. per cwt., if they were nine links to a foot; but if they
were 10 links I should get 6 d. extra; if they were 11 links Gd. extra to that ;
at the rate of 6 d. per cwt. for every link more we put in a foot.
19287. Are those the list prices?
That is the list price which we are asking at the present time.
19288. Do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
141
1th March ISSd.'] S. Puiest. \_Coidinued.
19288. Do you know when that list was made out?
Some time in January ; I was on the committee.
19289. And do vou sell your chains to large masters ?
No.
19290. Sell them to what are called foggers?
Not really what we call a fogger; this one is a middleman; he goes to the
warehouse himself ; only hy au arramiement for my doing him a good turn
some time ago, he finds me what we call the higgest kind of work in the country
work; so that it pays me better to work for him than it would to go to a ware-
house.
19291. You mean that you get the pick of the work ?
The pick. Cart traces, no matter what size iron they are made from, are
paid at one uniform rate per cwt. ; that is they may uant made some cart traces
12 lbs. per pair (two traces, one on each side of the horse), and tliey may want
some 24 lbs. to the pair; a 12 lb. per pair would take No. 2 iron, but the 24 lb.
a pair would take 3 - 8 ths exact; there are four or five sizes between them. I
should get exactly as much per cwt. for the 3 - 8 tiis exact as for the No. 2.
19292. How much more labour would there be in making the heavier
ones ?
Much heavier labour, but I should not make half the weight of light ones
which I should in the heavy ones in a day ; that is to say I could make a cwt.
of 3 - 8 ths exact in the day and not make above half a cwt. of No. 2.
19293. So that the bigger the work the better the job for you ?
Yes.
19294. And you say it pays you better to take your work to the middleman
rather than to the rnastei’, because you get this heavy work to do?
Yes ; at the same time I ha\ e really tlie master’s price ; that is an arrange-
ment between me and this person, because I have been able to do him a good
turn.
19295. Whereas if you went straight to the master you would have to take
what he gave you ; some small, and some big ?
Yes.
19296. Times are pretty good now, are they not ?
They are better than they were.
19297. What can you earn now?
If I do a whole week’s work I can earn from 14 to 155 .
19298. How many hours work would you have to work for that i
I sliould have to work from seven to seven.
19299. Including Monday and Saturday?
No ; I should perhaps knock off at 6 o’clock on Monday, and about 3 o’clock
on the Saturday.
10500. Do you generally do what you call a whole week’s work ?
No, not in this trade.
19301. What do you do besides ?
1 am trying to improve my position, with the little education I had in book-
keeping, because it betters my position ; and I really have to go to my trade,
which 1 have learned only when I can get nothing else.
19302. Do I understand that you only work at making chains when you can
get nothing better to do ?
Wlien I can get nothing better to do. Sometimes I do three days’ work in a
week ; some days 1 go into the shop, work half a day, and then go and keep
books for some man.
16303* I gather from you that your position is rather a fortunate one, [and
(ID) S3 that
142
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
7th 1889 ] S. Priest. \_Continued.
thiit you have p,ot a friend, this middleman, who gives you the best work he can?
owing to your having done him a good turn?
Yes, that is I am greatly benefited by it. If he were so disposed, of course as
a middleman, he would charge me so much per cwt, for every cwt. that I could
do.
19304. Do you weigh your own goods?
I do not.
10305. You trust him ?
I trust him.
19306, You trust him because he is a friend of yours ?
Yes.
19307. Have vou ever sold to any other fofrgers r
Yes.
19308. Do you trust them in the same way?
I have followed my work and seen it weighed.
1 9309. Do you think the weights are correct ?
I do not think they are correct.
19310. What makes you think that?
Because when I worked for a logger whose name has been mentioned to-day
I could never get any iron in, that is, I could not make above 104 lbs. from
1 cwt. of iron. Generally, working at the rate I am working, I can get 2 lbs.
to the cwt. in. That gives me reason to think that their weights are not
correct.
19311. Did you ever make any complaint to the Inspector of Weights and
Measures ?
If you mean whether I have directly told him of the name of a person, I have
not made a charge ; but I have seen him in person, and told him that we had
reason to believe that a certain party’s weights were not correct, and we should
like him, if he would, to wait upon that party.
19312. Do you know whether anything came of that ?
No, I do not.
19313. Can you earn as much now^ as you could, say 19 years ago, when you
began this work ; are the prices as good now as then ?
No ; 19 years ago I got as much, and had no responsibility upon me besides
making the chain as I get now, finding firing and tools and shop rent and some
material; that is to say, 19 years ago I had 5 .?. Qd. per cwt. for simply
making the links alone, and 1 had my hooks and swivels found me ; now I have
to make hooks and swivels, and find firing and shop rent, and 1 only get b s.Q d.
per cwt.
19314. Is there any way in which you can account for that ?
I'here are more in the trade lo-day than there were then.
19315. Too much competition ?
Yes ; and a little bit of tricks resorted to.
19316. Do you think there are many who go into your trade who used to be
employed in making nails ?
Yes, I may say we have got scores of instances ; they would run to hundreds
of instances.
19317. Have you any idea how much your cost of living has gone down in
that time, 19 years ; you can live much cheaper now, cannot you?
I would not like to make a direct statement upon that point, as I have never
really gone inh) the cost of my living.
1931 8. You have no idea whether the living is cheaper or dearer ?
I would
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
143
7th March 1889.] S. Priest. \_C(mt'inucd.
I would not, like to make a direct statement. The principal reason is that I
sell provisions, and fetch them out of the shop if T nant them.
19319. You have a shop of your own?
My wife manages a shop.
10320. How long have you sold provisions
Nine years.
19321. The shop belongs to you, I suppose, but your wife manages it?
The shop belongs to me, but my wife manages it.
19322. We have had it suggested in evidence that many of these foggers,
middle men, own shops; practically own them themselves, or that they are
managed by their wives or near relations, and that they charge more than the
ordinary regular shops do ; do you think that that is the case ?
1 do not think so; in fact, we know it ; in fact, Iiaving tried (o work the
question out about the prosecution, w^e have been told by the parties who have
had to pay (as we say, in our neighbourhood) through the nose for the articles
they have received, from what we call the trucksler.
19323. Can you give any evidence to the Committee as to the prices they
charge and the prices you charge ?
What I state now is fiom what I have received from the people. I have
never dealt with a truckster in my life.
IQ 324 . Can you give us the prices that you charge and the prices that th
trucksters charge ?
I can give you the prices that the jieople told me the trucksters charge
them. For instance, one who sold meat charged 8^ d. to 9 d. per lb.
19325. That you have been told ?
That I have been told from the person whe received it and paid for it.
19326. What do you charge for the same?
1 do not sell meat, but 1 cati tell you the ordinary price butchers were
charging in the district at the time, Gd. to 7 d. per lb. Boiling beef, as we
call it, the inferior joitds, much cheaper; and a cheap butcher, who came into
the neighbourhood, selling at fi om 4 d. to 6 d. rounds of beef, at the same time
that this person was charging 8^ d. to 9 d.
19327. And in the same waiy with other things, flour and sugar ?
Yes. W^e have been told by parties that they have ]iaid 8 d.. a lb., for bacon
where 1 have been selling it at the same time in my shop at 5 ^ d. a lb., up
to 6 d, ; and we have bean told that they had to pay a halfpenny a lb. more for
their sugar than they can get in other shops, and the general report is that
it is a halfpenny a lb. worse in quality. By mixing two kinds of sugar together
they can easily make a halfpenny a lb. difference. I refer to moist sugar, not
lump.
19328. You say that it is the general complaint in the district that these
trucksters always charge a great deal more than the other shops ?
Yes.
19329. Is it a complaint also that the people who sell chain to the men who
keep these truckster shops are practically obliged to buy from them ?
They never tell them straight out, “ You will have to go to the shop;” but
it seems to be an understood affair that unless they deal with them they get no
work for them.
19330. Has that ever happened to you yourself?
No; in getting this information, allow me 10 state that I have gone round
the neighbourhood on purpose knowing that it was an evil under which I was
personally suffering ; I have gone to try to work the affair up to bring about a
conviction, and that is how I get the information which I am giving you.
10331. You justnow spoke abont going to the middleman instead of going to the
(ll.) S4 warehouses
144
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Wi March 1889.] S. Priest. {^Continued.
warehouses ; 1 understand that the large masters have a number of warehouses
about the district, and that each warehouse is under the control of a foreman ;
is that the way it is managed ?
Not that one master has a number ; we do not know but one firm that has
two, and 1 suppose there is a mile-and-a-iiaif between them ; they have them in
the ditierent neighbourhoods round, say a mile and-a-half and two miles round.
19332. Warehouses under the management of a foreman r
^ihcre are different compartments in connection with their general building ;
there is tlie iron warehouse, for instance, and there is a foreman in there to give
out the iron; then there is a man in the chain warehouse to weigh the chain;
then probably there is a man to do the polishing, what ue call brightening up
the chain.
19333- Have vou ever dealt with these warehouses vourself?
No.
19334. You cannot speak on that point as to whether the foremen give proper
prices and so on ?
I can speak from a case that has come under my knowledge. Before I started
away on Tuesday morning they brough it specially to me, and asked me to get
it before your Lordships, our new' revised list as made out ; one of the firms
upon that committee agreeing to give our revised list price. A person comes
to me, and says, ‘‘What am I to do, I have been down to So-and-so this morning,
and he asked me my price ” (this is the manager of the warehouse you have
already asked me about, not the proprietor of the linn) ; “ I told him the 4 s.
list for our good ordinary chain ; the 3 s. 6 c?. list for common ‘slap-dash;’ he
said he would not have any. ‘ 1 shall not jiay the price.’”
19335. AVhat did you recommend the man to do ?
1 did not give him any direct recommendation ; I told him he would have to
please himself, and do the best he could under the circumstances. It is a
general complaint through the neiglibourhood that this warehouseman does it
regular.
19336. Let me understand; what do you mean; do you mean that the
w'arehouseman does it in order to put the difference between that and the list
price in his own pocket?
No.
19337. He does it for the satisfaction of his employer ?
Yes.
19338. Why did the man come to you about it?
1 take an active part in the management of the union.
19339. Have you got any official position in the union?
Not official ; I have not time to attend to it officially, but I do what I can.
I was put on this revised list committee and I spare what hours I can for the
good of the trade.
19340. What union is that, the Chainmakers’ ?
The Chainmakers’ Union.
19341. Is it increasing in numbers ?
Alas, it is not increasing now.
19342. What is the difficulty you have; do the men say that they cannot
afford the subscriptions, or what ?
Some of them will tell me that they cannot. Females, too, they cannot afford
the 3 d. per week simply because their condition is such that 3 d. would be the correct price?
Yes He should not charge her for wast e of iron which she stated she had
to pay.
19376. At all events, you say that that is an excessive charge to the extent of
a halfpenny in the shilling ?
It is a halfpenny too much.
IU377. Chairman^ These lists of prices are settled pretty often, are they
not ?
Unfortunately, this last two years we have had a great contest over them, and
we have been compelled t'> try to settle things amicably, but there has been
such a contention against what we call the 1887 list, that we were compelled
to frame the niw revised list.
19378. That was the list made last January r
Yes.
19379. And the one before that was in 1887 ?
Yes.
( 11 .)
T 2
19380. And
14H
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
1th March 1889.] S. Priest. \^Continued.
19380. And these lists of prices are settled by representatives of the workmen
and the masters ?
The new revised list only. The others by the workmen alone.
19381. The last list is by masters and workmen ?
Yes; at a meeting specially convened of representatives of the masters and
workmen it wns agi'eed for five on each side to be chosen to meet as a com-
mittee and frame the new revised list.
19382. Was not the list in 1887 settled by masters and men ?
No.
19383. But the masters agreed to it?
They had not generally agreed to it ; we tried to compel them to agree
to it.
19384. Duke of Norfolk.~\ The masters have all agreed to the last list, I
sup|)ose ?
No, they will not adhere to it.
19385. But they did agree to it at the beginning ?
Yt s, they agree to it ; that is, 22 masters or rather more agreed to it.
19386. Chairman.^ As a matter of fiiet, in regard to that 1887 list, did not
the masters, or some of them at any rate, endeavour to keep to the list prices ?
Yes.
19387. But they could not do so because some among them began to give
less ?
The greater number would not pay the list priee.
19388. What I understand you to complain of in the working of these out-
siders who make chains is that they undersell you ?
I do.
19389. And that therefore the operatives in the trade itself cannot keep up
the [n ice to the list prices r
Yes,
19390. That is to say, that it is useless for you to combine to keep up your
prices, because these outsiders will come in and break the prices down ?
No ; I believe in combination.
19391, 1 say it is useless for you to combine because these outsiders will
break tlie prices down ?
Yes, on the face of it.
19392. And you would agree, I presume, with tlie former witnesses who have
said that the men working together in factories would be more likely to com-
bine than men working in twos and threes in a small shop ?
I feel sure of it.
19393. They would hang together better?
Yes, they would be under better control ; the manager would be able to
restrict their hours of labour according to the demand, and there would be a
more uniform ])rice paid tiian there is now ; men would have an opportunity of
gathering what each man was receiving, whereas under the present system two
next-door neighbours may go to one warehouse and they would not know what
each one is receiving ; perhaps one would work at a lower price for weeks before
the other would find it out, he demanding the list price all the while ; whereas
in a factory a more uniform price is paid.
19394. You do not want to keep up the price by restricting the number of
people working in the trade, only you do not think it fair that outsiders should
come in and do these odd jobs ?
I think every man is at liberty to learn what trade he likes.
19395. And you contend that he ought to stick to that trade. Now we have
had
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
149
7 ?/« March 1889 .] S. Inkiest. \^Conlinued.
had it suggested in evidence that the way in which the work is carried on in
these workshops is conducive to immorality ?
In larger chain shops.
19306. You think so?
I have heard it.
19397. You have lived there tor a long time ; do you think that it is so ?
1 do think so ; it is my conviction.
19398. Lord Monkswell^ You say you only pay 3 y men having
a technical knowledge of the trade ?
I think they should have a technical knowledge of the various trades of the
district.
19781. Lord Thring.^ Do you mean by technical knowledge, a practical
knowledge ; that they should themselves have worked at the trade?
YeSj at some trade, one or the other ; then they would very soon get a
theoretical knowledge of the other trades from the fact of tlieir previous
association or meeting with these men. For instance, in the Federation which
I represent we have now aljout 30 different trades, and the fact is that I am so
often brought in contact with these various trades in connection with meetings
of employers and workmen with regard to wage questions, that it naturally gives
me an insight into the particulars of those trades which I should not get other-
wise.
19782, Lor^ MonJcswell.^ I do not know what you mean by a radius of 30
or 40 miles ; do you mean 30 or 40 square miles, or that the centre is distant
from the outskirts, in every direction, 30 or 40 miles ?
1 mean a radius of 30 or 40 miles,
19783, That if you are standing in the middle, your district would go 30 or
40 miles in every direction?
I do not mean that,
19784, Chairman.^ You do not mean 60 miles across?
No,
19785, About 30 miles across :
About 30 miles across,
19786. That is roughly speaking, of course?
That is speaking roughly.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
THOMAS WYLE is called in; and, having been sworn, is Examined,
as follows :
19787. Chairman.] What is your trade ?
I used to nail, but I have not since 1853, without it lias been now and then
for one day when I have had no work at my other situation ; but for 20 years I
have not made any.
19788. What are you doing now ?
I will show you bow I have been going on through my life. The prices of
nails were so low that I left the trade through the agitation of the men, and I
went to underhand puddling for two years, then I left underhand puddling and
went to bolt and nut making under the Patent Nut and Bolt (’ompany at
Smethwick, Birmingham.
19789. Did you work in Birmingham ?
It is Birmingham; we call it Birmingham ; it is nearly all in the borough. I
worked there till 1872 ; at that time the short hours came into existence in the
nut and holt making, having been brought in through the Union. I said, before the
short hours became agreed to by the masters, that it would be the ruin of the
trade. We began at the short hours, worked some little time ; I could not
exactly say how long ; it was not many months ; we came out on strike in 1872
for a rise; I cannot exactly say what I think it was 10 per cent., 1 will not be
sure ; we played 17 weeks and went in at 25 per cent, reduction. In the mean-
while through this strike the nut and bolt trade ran into machinery, from where
I think it will never come back.
(H.) Y4
19790. After
176
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
8th March 1889.] T. Wyle. \_Continued.
19790. After you left that trade, what then ?
It was after the strike. While the strike was on, the machinery was got up
and the nuts and bolts were made hy machinery, and they are now, and have
been ever since. The rivet trade being very good I returned to the rivet trade ;
rivets at that time were fetching a very good price ; I had none to help me
besides myself at that period. I had had a rather good situation, so that I was
able to buy some tools and start for myself. After that the rivet trade became
very depressed, wa^es very low ; then I returned to make forgings for brass
foundries, such as pegs to blind rollers, such as a bell-hanger’s crank-peg, such
as bell carriages, the wheels that you put on tables, the castors that run in
the wheels, the castors that run on the iron bedsteads, the angle studs also.
There is not another family in the neighbourhood that makes that class of work
and takes it all through.
19791. You began by nail-making?
Certainly ; I worked till 1853 at nail-making.
19792. Then you went to puddling, then nuts and bolts, then rivets, and then
forgings ?
Yes, for brass founders.
19793. Is that what you are doing now f
Yes.
19794. Where do you live ?
At Rowley Regis, near Dudley.
19795. Hare you lived there all the time ?
Yes.
19796. And done all your work there ?
No ; when 1 did the nut and bolt making I used to walk from there to
Smethwick, w hich is six miles, night and morning.
19797. Have you got a shop of your own now ?
The building is not my own ; the tools are my own.
19798. You rent a shop?
Yes, 1 rent two houses. To those two houses there are two shops.
19799. Do you work yourself in one of the shops ?
Yes.
19800. Who works with you?
Two sons, a brother-in-law, a son-in-law, a nephew, one daughter, but that
daughter is 23 ; she makes the angle studs for the bedsteads.
19801. Is that all in one shop ?
No, in four shops. My mother has got no husband and she must have a
home ; T have to pay the rent and use her shop ; I have a son-in-law living the
opposite side of the road, and he has a shop, and I use his shop.
19802. Then I understand you have got four shops ?
Ifes.
19803. And bow many persons working in those four ?
Eight.
19804. Two in each ?
Two in each
19805. All members of your family, or connections of your family?
All members or connections ; I have brought them from the nail-block to
where they are, and it has cost me some trouble.
19806. Are they all working for you ?
Yes.
19807. How
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
177
Sth March 1889.]
T. Wtle.
[ Continued.
19807. How do you pay them ?
We pay them piece-work except when it comes to a few dozens, then when
it comes to these few dozens we have got to make a new pair of tools ; say that
you want a set of new rollers to that windovv of a different shape ; it would cost
.’j s. to make different tools ; we have got to charge the men we sell the goods to
for the tools, and then we pay them day-work for that ; we pay 5 s. a day for
day work.
19808. What do you pay by the weight ?
Taking the wheel pegs, and the bedstead pegs, we pay so much per cwt.
19809, Flow much per cwt. ?
Twelve shillings per cwt.
19810. Where do you sell tliese goods ?
Mr. Whitfield in Oxford-street, Birmingham; Mr. Everett, Devonshire-street,
at Smethwick ; Mr. Moore, Priory Works, Priory-road, Ashton ; Mr. Cartwright,
Edgbaston-street, Birmingham; Mr. J. H. Bruce, bedstead manufacture!’, Bir-
mingham.
1981 1. Are these people that you sell to in Birmingham ?
Birmingham and Smethwick, but some in Manchester.
19812. As to those in Birmingham, how do you get the goods to them ?
I have got a horse and trap, and take them myself.
19813. How much do you take at a time?
Sometimes half a ton, according to what are wanted ; some go by train ; some
orders are not above 6 lbs.
19814 You get an order I suppose, and then you execute it and take the
goods ?
Yes.
19815. What kind of a size order do you generally get ?
Some of them two dozen ; sometimes 5 cwt. at a time.
19816. What is the smallest quantity you ever take ?
I could not say much less than two dozen, but I have taken as low as four
pegs, one set.
19817. Do you mean to say that you would take a horse and cart to
Birmingham to take four pegs r
Go by rail.
19818. What would the four pegs be worth ?
Nothing for them sometimes but the accommodation ; if we have got
good masters it is my place to accommodate them.
19819. What is the largest order you ever take ?
Sometimes a ton, that is the largest; I hardly ever have a ton, and that ton
will run over a month in being used ; they w'oulcl not use it in five weeks.
19820. How long would it take you in your shop to make the ton; yourself
and the people working for you, I mean ?
It would take six of us a week.
19821. I think you said there were eight of you working ?
Yes.
19822. Do you work yourself the same as the others?
Yes.
19823. How many hours a day ?
VVe begin at seven and knock off at seven.
19824. Do you buy in any work from other people?
No.
( 11 .)
Z
19825. Where
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
l/S
iI/«rcA 1889. 1 T. Wyle. {^Continued.
19825. Wliere do you get your material that you use from ?
The iron I generally get from Smethwick, sometimes from Bromford Iron
Works, or sometimes from warehouses when I am compelled to accommodate
them.
19826. Has your shop ever been visited by a factory inspector ?
Very often; it is not many weeks since he was there last.
19827. Have they ever made any complaint •
No.
19828. Quite satisfied ?
Quite satisfied.
19829. You left the nail trade, I think you said, because you found the prices
were so bad that it did not pay ?
It was so very bad that I was ashamed of it. I thought I would do whatever
I could do to get a living.
19830. You left the puddling for the same reason ?
Because it was short work.
19831. And then you went to make nuts and bolts ?
Yes.
19832. Did you know how to make nuts and bolts before, or how did you
learn ?
I went to make drawing pins first, and did that for about a fortnight, and tiien
fang bolts.
19833. Had you ihe same number of people working for you then?
No, I had got no one then.
19834. Lord Monks-well?\ What proportion of the work do you get done as
day work ; how much day labour do you employ ?
When they have to make a new pair of tools.
19835. The proportion of day work is very small ?
It is most days ; if a man has to make a new pair of tools we pay for that as
day work.
19836. As a rule you pay them piece-work?
Yes.
19837. How many of the eight are at day work^
They work day work when they are working odd dozens, or repairing tools ;
it may come to-day and may come to-morrow.
19838. Lord Clifford of Chudleigh 7 \ How long is it since you have been
making nuts and bolts ?
In 1872 I left the Patent Nut and Bolt Company at Smethwick.
19839. Why did you leave them :
It came to a strike ; we played 17 weeks and we had to go in at a reduction,
and I never went in at the reduction.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
JOHN PRICE is called in, and, having been sworn ; is Examined, as follows:
19840.
Yes.
Chairman.^ Are you a nail maker?
19841. How long have you been in that trade?
1 have worked at the trade for more than 58 years.
19842. What
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
1/9
8^7^ March 1889.]
J. Price.
r Continued.
19842. What kind of nails are you making now ?
I began at what we call the Essex hurdle. I worked at that for a number of
years ; I am now working at my trade, at cooper rivet making.
19843, And you have made all kinds of nails, I suppose, in your time ?
A great many sort-.
19844. Have you ever made these spike nails?
Never.
19845. All the smaller kinds of nail?
Mostly thousand and smaller hundred work.
19846. Have you got a shop of your own ?
A shop that I rent.
19847. Who works wnth you ?
A daughter, and my wife when she is well.
19848. What do you do with your nails ?
1 take them to the warehouse on the Saturday morning after performing
the week’s work.
198^19. Do you get your iron out from the warehouse on the Monday
morning ?
On the Saturday morning, when I take them, weigh them and reckon them,
I get my iron back for the next week.
19850. Do you weigh them yourself
I weigh them at the counter myself.
19851. Weigh them in the warehouse ?
There is a weigher that weighs them fiom me.
19852. I mean do you weigh them in your own shop ?
I weigh them in my own shop before I go.
19853. You have a weighing machine of your own?
We have a pair of scales and beams to weigh with, not a ball.
19854. And regular weights to weigh with?
It appears rather strange but you would hardly go into a nailmaker’s shop
and find the regular sealed weights ; you would find them with pebbles or stones
or any thing they could get hold of, so as to know when they are weighing a
bundle of nails what it weighs. There are a good many that get pebbles, one
that w'ill weigh 10 lbs., another 5 lbs., another 3 lbs., and another 2 lbs ; they
get them in the scales just to balance, merely to know what they have got, and
what they will have when they get to the warehouse, but very few have what
we call cast weights.
1 9855. How do they know that the pebbles are accurate ?
From one trial they will understand in the future; but they may wear a little
and then they will make a little extra weight ; by these means they are enabled
to know what weight they will have when they get to the warehouse. Their
poverty and misery are such, that I suppose tliey hardly would know how to
raise cast-iron weights.
19S56. They could not afford it ?
Tliey could not afford it.
19857. Do you generally find that when your nails are weighed at the ware-
house, you get the same weight as you found them when you weighed them in
the shop ?
I have always found it so.
19858. Just the same ?
Just the same.
(11.) z 2
19859- So
180
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
8th March 1889 .]
,T. Price.
[Co7itinued.
iq8,59 So that your weights are all right you think ?
All right.
]98()o. Do you always get proper iron to make the nails that you 'have to
make ?
Yes ; I do not have to change my iron ; I get tiie size of the iron for the work
that 1 am put to.
19861. Do you mean 10 say that you never changed the iron ?
Not for many years ; formerly there was a deal of iron changing in the nail
trade, l)ut it is almost abolislied. There are stalls up against the walls in the
warehouse where there will be one size for a certain class of work and another
size for another class of work, and if you go up against the walls outside the
warehouse if you have got to take No. 1, you will find 10 tons of No. 1 marked
with white paint against the wall ; in the same way, if it is No. 2, yon will find
it ; you know where to go and pick it from without gauging ; if it is No. 3, what
we call “ quarter,” you can go and lake it. The last 1 brought out was No. 4 ;
I knew where to get it, and 1 have my iron in the shop, wailing for me to go to
my work when I can get back, without any changing.
19862. You say that changing is not at all common now?
Not common ; there may be instances, there might be exceptions where they
nave tu go and change, It might possibly not be right, especially in the nail
rods ; women particularly would not be able to form a proper judgment in refer'
ence to the size of the iron, and they Avould bring it wrong, and if they had
done so tin y would have to go and pay a penny per bundle to change it at their
own expense; but that taking place is a great exception.
19863. But it used to be common?
It used to be common. In the village where I live, Rowley Regis, there
would be formerly half-a-dozen iron shops for buying and selling, and changing
iron, and now there is one I think, but it does not pay to keep the iron because
there is very little iron changing.
19864. I nnderstand you that the warehousemen are more particular now,
and that the worker can get the proper iron if he knows how to pick it out
himself. Do you ever get ciooked iron or iron that requires straightening ?
We get a great quantity of what we call coil iron ; and there is a great quantity
of what I term scrap-iron bought by the fogger or foggers, straightened upon
their own premises, delivered to the workmen, and when delivered to the work
men it is both injurious to the interest of the operative who receives it, and a
great hindrance in the manufacture of nails, and also it is a great loss in
reference to the amount of inferior rubbish, because when he puts it in to make
a nail it makes a scrap, and has to be thrown on one side ; it is a great loss to
him, and loss of time.
19865. .Makes bad nails ?
Makes bad nails. I was in a shop only a few years ago, and I saw a poor
fellow whom you would think to be 90 years of age, though he was only 54 , he
was so emaciated ; he has been carried out of his stall twice ; he was making
nails ior a certain logger and wliile I was in the shop for 10 minutes there were
two heads out of about four that came off. When the shank is made from this
rubbishy stuff it is put in the bore, and you have to catch it a little bit for the
heading* of the plate nail; and the inferior rubbish was such that when he came
to draw it a little the head came off'. All that waste would fall upon the work-
man besides loss of time. After he had manufactured the shank the head would
come off. You see his time would be thrown entirely away.
19866. Do they pay as much for this bad material as they would for the good
mattricil, at the warehouse ?
I should think that being bought upon the principle of only having children
to straighten it, it would be bnught at about half the price which good iron would
be bought at.
19867. Do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
181
8th 31arch 1889 .]
J. Price.
[ Conlinned.
19867. Do you work for any fogger ?
No, I do not work for any fogger ; I work ior ready money.
19868. I understand you that some people, some of the workers, get this
inferior material from the foggers, and that they are unable to make the proper
quantity because a lot of the nails are spoilt
Yes.
19869. So that a lot of their time and work is wasted?
Yes.
19870. Why do they deal with these foggers?
In answering you of course I must take a little consideration, The first thing
is that there is a number of men and women that prefer to go and work for the
fogger rather than work for a ready-money master; and there are a number of
improvident men and dishonest men, I am sorry to say, who will go to a readv-
money master and get a stock of iron out, which they should return, after being
manufactured into nails, under eight days, according to the statute, to save them
from the charge of embezzling, and they will go and sell that iron, waste the
money in some form, and perhaps that matter will stand over for two or three
months betwixt the man and the employer, and he is called upon to know what
course he is going to take in reference to restituting honestly what he has taken
out for the purpose of manufacturing nails. In the meantime these men must
have something to fall back upon ; an honest employer will hardly look upon
such men, and they resort to the fogger or middleman to manufacture and
make nails under the circumstances which I have described to you by their own
acts of dishonesty in selling the master’s iron.
19871. Who do they sell the iron to in a case of that kind ?
I could not say, but mostly, I should say, it would be to one of the iron dealers,
such as there are that buy and sell.
19872. Then I understand you that one reason why workmen go to the
fogger is that what you call ready-money masters would not employ them ?
With regard to the ready-money masters, there is a difficulty for a man at all
times to get on with the ready-money masters, and the advantages that the
masters have by buying through the hands of the fogger are such that that is
a strony inducement to lead the mastei’s into that channel, to purchase a portion
of tlie nails, especially i'or the e.xport trade. The fogger does not get up as
good a quality as the single hand makers for country orders, such as for the
north of England, Scotland, and so on, but an inferior quality is got up by the
foggers ; there are men and women that do not make and produce such a
superior nail as is required for the country trade, or for the north of England
or Scotland. 'J'hese people make them for the fogger, and the fogger is enabled
by charging for his goods on a certain principle (which 1 will state to you when
1 am asked) to sell at 10 per cent, less than the single hands to the master, and
it is a strong inducement to the masters to derive the bulk of the nails through
that channel.
19873. You mean that the master can get them cheaper from the fogger than
from single hands r
Certainly, they have told me so iilain. i have had to visit them for 41 years,
and 1 know a bit about it.
19874. What do you mean by “ ready-money masters” ; you have used that
term ?
Such as keep no truck shops, but open their warehouses to buy the nails, and
then when the warehouseman weighs them he gives you a note to have your
iron booked and settled, and then we get them reckoned, and from the reckoner
we go and get our money from the cashier.
19875. That is what you call a ready-money master?
That is a ready-money master.
(11-) Z3
19876. What
182
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
8th March 1889.] J Price. \_Continue(L
1 9876. What do you call the other ?
The logger. The logger is a man that has a truck shop, perhaps within 10
or 15 \ards of the wareliouse, and in some places not above four or five, as near
as possible.
10877. You do not mean to say that every logger has a truek shop ?
VVe have a great number of middlemen as well as those that deal in
provisions, that do not sell truck. I call those middlemen, and they have got
to sell their nails to the master the same as the man that sells provisions.
19878. 1 understand from you that when you speak of a logger you mean a
middleman who also keeps a provision shop or public-house ?
1 call those keepers of truck shops, and others I call middlemen ; some call
them understrappers.
19879. You were going to tell the Committee I think why it was, or how it
was, that the loggers could get the goods cheaper ; you said you would explain
if you were asked ?
1 find, and I know it from purchases that I have made (for there have been
times when I have not had a master to work for, and I have been compelled to
go and work for a logger, so I know a little about it), that the logger will charge
you Qd. 2i lb. for Ameriean cheese, sueh as you can purchase in the ready-money
shop for 6 t/., and for American bacon, inferior too, he will charge 8 t?. a lb., when I
can get as good at 5 ^ d. ; sugar they will charge d. a lb. (or which you could pur-
chase in the other shojis for ready money for 2 d. ; and for tea, 1 should consider
they charge more by 50 per cent., soap something like about 1 'nprove our social condition ; they refused to do so, and of course
we struck, and I was the leader of the strike ; we struck three weeks and three
days ; there was 20 per cent, advance upon the list price Avhich was made in
1869 ; the masters very agreeably met us at the Dudley Arms Hotel, Dudley, and
treated us with plenty to eat and plenty to drink and very good feeling, and
they said thej^ would concede to us that which we had asked, that was 20 per
cent, advance. A portion of the operatives became discontented, which is the
worst thing that ever they did ; it has been detrimental to their interests to
this hour, and will be when 1 am gone ; not satisfied with a substantial rise of
20 per cent., and such percentage to be conceded to the whole body of
operatives, no distinction to put class against class, the men themselves formed
a kind of a conspiracy against their fellows, and said that they would have
upon their own classe s of work another 71 per cent, at least ; 10 per cent,
they asked ; the trade was good and the masters had to concede to them
another 7i ppi’ cent. That was in 1874; they were not satisfied then; in
1875 they called upon the employers for another rise in wages, while the
general hundred workers (it is reckoned by so much per cwt. but it is drawn
nicely and well finished, not a jumped nail just tipped off at the point that has
to be drawn straight, and a shank very well finished) and copper rivet workers,
and large rose makers; and drawn spike makers (spikes made fiom the nail-
rod) got no advance. Under such circumstances it established a bad feeling
amongst the nail-makers, and set man against man and woman against woman;
and from that hour 1 have been unable to be successful in reference to bene-
fiting the whole body of the operatives.
19896. I gather from you that, owing to the fact that working men and
women did not hold together, eventually the masters were able to reduce the
wages to their present level ?
Quite so.
19897. And that, in your opinion, the working men made demands upon
the masters when trade was very good which were not wise or justifiable ?
There never ought to have been a demand made since the concession made
in 1872 ; that has been detrimental to the interests of the whole body of
operatives.
19898. You think the working men and women are, to a certain extent, or
to a large extent, to blame for the fact that wages have got down so low ?
A section of them ; not what I call the executive committee, or myself as
their chairman, but it was a section of the nailmakers that set up a new com-
mittee and a new chairman and worked in opposition to us.
19899. What can you earn now on the average in the year; how much a
week ?
I work very hard indeed, harder than a young man ought to work, and I
can earn by working so hard something like 10 s. 6 /?. a week gross; but uut of
that, to earn the 10 s. 6 d-, it would take me something like about d. for
carriage, and I will say 10' about any tiling ?
No, they will actually take their work for a larger size than what they put
them t) ; that means 3 r/. or 4 d. a bundle less; they will take them for larger
nails.
20034. And the wmmen do not remonstrate ?
I have seen them tremble at the counter.
20035 The fogger, you sa}3 takes off 4 d. a bundle ?
Yes.
2003b. Does he ever take off any more than that ?
In smaller nails, in very small nails they take more.
20037. What will thev take oft* in very small nails?
They take 6 d. and 8 d. in very small ones.
2003tS. What is the difference caused by ?
Because the small wairk gets more money, and the}^ deduct more for their
profit.
20039. But they have not got any more to carry ; the carrying does not cost
the fogger any more ?
No, it does not cost the fogger anytiiing.
20040. Then what is this 6 d. or 8 d. for ?
He reckons that for his trouble of just weighing the nails and for his interest,
I suppose, on the money that he pays to the operative.
20041. Then it is for weighing the nails, not for carrying them?
Not for carrying them, because the iron is taken from the warehouse to the
fogger and the nads carted away ; he is not charged for that.
20042. This A d. 2. bundle you spoke of w the inspector?
Yes.
20055. Do you leally mean to tell that seriously to the Committee, that you
would be afiaid to communicate with the inspector for fear that you would lose
vour work ?
Yes.
20056. Lord Thring.] Who is the superintendent of police?
Superintendent Wheeler, of Stourbridge.
20057. \^'ho is the chief constable; where does he live; do you know ?
Worcester.
20058. There seems to he a great deal of intimidation ?
Yes, there is.
20059. Owing, I suppose, to the fact that the men are so w’eak that they
cannot protect each other ?
Yes; and they are afraid to speak about anything, as a rule.
20060. Chairmon.] Have you got anything to say about the introduction of
macliine-made nails ?
No ; nothing particular.
20061. Would you he in favour of all the work being carried on in factories
if it were possible :
Yes, or the workshops as they are being under the Factory Act, and closing
them at a certain hour at night against all persons, male and female.
20062. Do you think that the workpeople generally w'ould agree with
that ?
Yes.
20063. Have you ever discussed that with your society, ever had any talk
about it before the society ?
Yes, in different districts, I have.
20064. Y ould you have the hours of ai'ult male labour limited?
^ cs. The reason of that is that it w^otdd prevent men of other trades after
they have done their own day’s work going into the nail trade.
20065. You would have the factory shut at a certain time at night ?
Yes.
20066. You do not think it fair upon you that men working underground,
or at other trades, should come in and work during the night at your
trade ?
That is so.
20067. Do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
197
8th March 1889.] T. Lees. [Continued.
■20067. Do you think that any of these alterations would increase the cost of
these hand-made nails ?
No, I do not think they would.
i
20068. ^’ou are not in favour of putting an end to women working
altogether ?
No, hut to tie them to a certain size nail, not to allow them to work on
heavy work.
20069. And, I suppose, the same for children ?
Yes.
20070. You know, I suppose, that it is said that the machine-made nails
competiiion is pressing -very heavily upon the hand-made nails ?
Yes.
20071. Yt)u do not think any of these suggestions of limited hours of labour
and so on would make it still harder for the. hand-made nails to compete with
the machine-made nails ?
No ; because I think there would be just as much work done.
20072. Do you know at all why machinery is not set up in your district r
No, I do not.
20073. Duke of No)ifulk.~\ You say that as to tlie charge made by the fogger
for Carriage, “ carriage ” is a fictitious name, it is not for carriatre at all ?
No.
20074. Does he not bring the iron from the warehouse r
They send it to him.
20075. From the warehouse?
Tes, they send him a ton, or half a ion at a time, and when it is put up and
taken in he has nothing to pay.
20076. He has nothing to do with the carriage?
No.
20077. Only to weigh the nails?
V es.
20078. Lord Clifford of Chiidlelgh.~\ 1 suppose in this neighbourliood, as in
most, there are people whose character for honesty is not of the best, and 1
suppose that these people have a considerable difficulty in getting work from
the manufacturers?
There are some few in the district of that kind.
20079. Do you think that the loggers employ them, that they have to go to
the foggers ?
Yes, they will employ them.
20080. If they get any work at all they will get it from the foggers ?
Yes.
20081. Then, 1 .sujipose, the foggers run a certain amount of risk, do they
not, in employing these men
In what wayr^
20082. That they might never get the iron back that they give to the men ?
Yes, they run a risk in that way ; but they never let them have much at a
time, only a bundle at a time, and they let them have no more till they have
taken that in.
20083. Chairman.] Ho\v many men in your district are there of these,
truckstiu’s or foggers, or whatever you call them ; are they numerous?
In the Lye Waste and Old Swinford combined, I should say that there are
about seven ; and one linn employs five.
20084. Do not these men compete with each other; how do they manage to
keep up these high prices, 4 d. and 7 d. and Qd. for practically doing nothing ;
(11.) B B 3 how
198
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Sth March T. Lees. [Continued.
how is if that one fogger does not try to get more custom by saying, “ I will
take 3 c?.”?
I do not quite understand your question.
•2008^^. You say that they charge you very high prices, 4 d. and 6 d and 7 d.
practically for doing nothing but weighing the nails; how do they manage to
keep up tiiose high piices ?
d hey will take 4 d. off a bundle of nails, that is one of 2 s. Q d.\ and if it is a
bundle of a smaller size nail, skip nails for instance, double shank nails, thev
take 6 d. off for them, because they get about 8^. per bundle.
20086. But these foguers all charge exactly the same?
Yes.
20087. How dc they manage that
It is a system that has been carried on for so many years.
20088. You think they all work together, that they all agree to charge the
same ?
Yes.
20089. Can you tell us the kind of prices that are charged in the provision
shops as compared with the prices that are charged in the regular shops?
Yes, they are dearer ; bacon, butter, and cheese and so on, and flour ; 8 d.
jier bushel more for flour, and ‘Sd. per lb. more for margarine. The margarine
that they get at 6 d. in the legular shops, in the foggers’ provision shops they
would have to pay 9 d. for, and other things in proportion.
•J0090. And is the quality as good ?
About the same in quality, but ihe difference is in the prices. The people
tell me that in a good time of trade, when they are buying a good many nails
on a weigh day, they see the va eight r, or the cleik rather, often go from the
warehouse up to the shop to fetch the money back again, which the first people
that have liad their nails weighed have received and gone and paid for things ;
there he will go after it and fetch that money back to pay some more people
with.
20091. Is there anything more you would like to mention?
Not that I am aware of.
20092. Has any attempt at intimidating or interfering with witnesses coming
before this Ctimmittee, or with evidence that was given to Mr. Burnett, come
to your knowledge ?
No.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next,
Twelve o’clock.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
199
Die Martis^ 12 ® Martii^ 1889 «
LORDS PRESENT;
Duke of Norfolk.
Earl Brownlow.
Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.
Lord Kenry {Earl of Dunravcn and
Mount- Earl).
LORD KENRY (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl), in the Chair.
Mr. william PRICE, is called in: and, having beeii sworn, is Examined,
as follows :
20003. Chairmui.~\ Are you the Secretary to the Spike-Nail Makers Asso-
ciation ?
Yes.
20094. How long have you been in that position ?
About 18 months.
20095. And how long have you worked at the spike-nail trade?
I have worked at nails and rivets and different things over 50 years. I am
59 years old.
20096. That is to say, you have worked 50 years in the trade generally:
Yes, over 50 years.
20097. Do von know all about this spike-nail trade?
Yes.
20098. What district is it carried on in :
Chiefly in tlalesowen parish.
26099. oflier places ?
Y^es. Sedgley, which is about eight miles from that place.
20100. Have you any idea how many persons are engaged in it ?
There are about 550 in Halesowen and Hasbury and 50 to 60 at Sedgley.
20101. Are Halesowen and Hasbury both in Halesowen parish?
Yes.
20102. Have you any idea what the proportion would be of men, women, and
children ?
There would be about 200 men in Hasbury and Halesowen, and about 350
females and boys.
20103. Are there any factories in those districts ?
There is only one, which is what we term a factory, and there are not above
three or four working in that; they work at making horse-nails of different
kinds. There are large shops and small shops.
20104. Oidy one factory you sajs ?
Only one factory with steam power.
( 11 .)
Lord Monkswell.
Lord Thring.
Lord Basing.
B B 4
20105. That
200
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\2th March 1889.] Mr. Price. {^Continued.
20105. That is at Halesowen ?
Yes.
20106. Is there any factory at Sedffley ?
No.
20107. What are the other trades carried on in Halesowen and in Sedgley ?
There are some smaller nails than tho.«e spikes made at Sedgley and at Hales-
owen, but that trade is dying out.
20108. Have you any idea how many workshops there are?
'riiere are about 20 large shops ; we call the men loggers ; they keep larg-
shops, but then there are perhaps more in small shojis.
20109, What would you call a large shop ; how many people working in it ?
In some places there would be eight, in some perhaps a dozen, and it may be
more than that in some places ; in some there would be 14 .
201 10. Would those be shops that come under the Act?
Yes, the large shops.
20111. Then there are a larger number of small ones; how many could be
employed in them ?
I should think there would be a couple of hundred in the small shops.
201 12. I meant rather how many in each shop on an average?
In some places there are two, and in some places four; no more.
201 13. Would they be generally members of the same family ?
Sometimes, not always.
20114. You spoke of these large shops as belonging to foggers ; what do you
mean exactly by “ foggers ” ?
They get people to work in these large shops ; some of them have got as
many as 16 , and one has got as many as 38 men. They work in different shops,
yet they are under the control of one ; and these persons get the iron, and they
pay them at a lesser rate than the master; there is so much allowed. There
is a list for large shops, and then if a man sets up in a smaller shop he gets
another list, because he takes them direct to the master and sells them to the
master.
20115. A fogger would have several shops'
Yes, several shops.
20116. Close together ?
He would have them all under his control.
20117. 1^0 you mean all in the same yard?
The bigge.st wdl be in the same yard, but he may get two or three of this
kind of shops.
201 1 8. Then he makes a price-list himself ?
Not altogether. The operatives and factory masters agree together and
make a list.
201 iQ. But then I understand from you that the foggers who own these
shops have a different list ?
There are two lists [handing in the two lists).
20120. I see one of these is called “The Nail Factory Operatives’ Price
List ” ?
Yes.
2012 1. It goes on to say, “The undermentioned prices will be those
recognised by the nail factory operatives engaged in the manufacture of spikes,
&c., on and after 1st March 1889 ” ; is that the list that you describe as being
settled between the operatives and masters ?
Yes, but that is the best list ; that is higher than what the previous ones have
been.
20122. The
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
201
\'2th March 1889.]
Mr. Pkice.
[ Continued.
2012 2. The other list you have given me is called “ The Spike-Nail List,
from 26 th February 1889 ” ; how was that settled ?
That is for paying those that take the work and fetch the iron from tne
warehouse ; and the foggers pay the other list. The head masters pay that
one, or should do.
20123. They pay this last one, you mean r
Yes.
201-^4. The first list that I quoted, which I will call No. 1, is the list of prices
that the foggers pay ?
Yes.
20125. And the second list that I have quoted, which I will call No. 2, is the
list of prices settled between the operatives and the masters ?
Yes.
20126. Perhaps you will take them and point out any differences in the
prices {handing the lists hack to the witness) r
1 had better take perhaps the middle size and just explain it ; six-inch
spikes ; in the factory they would pay 8 a bundle for those.
20127. Which list are you reading from now?
'I’he operatives’ list ; the “ In ” list.
20128. You are quoting now from what you call the “ In ” list, the list that
the foggers pay ?
Yes, settled between the foggers and the operatives. For the same thing,
the masters pay 11^6?. per bundle; that makes 7 d. difference in a hundred-
weight.
20129. Is that the general proportion of difference right through?
Yes, about the middle size. Some of them are 6 d., and some of them are as
much as 8 d., but if we take the middle, that is about fair.
20130. These lists were settled in February and March of this vear?
Yes.
20131. When were the last lists previous to these settled '!
Last June, I think, if my memory serves me right,
20132. How often do you generally have a new list ?
That is according ; sometimes they bate them, and then they require a new
list, and if they go up as they have now this last week or this last fortnight, of
course there are new lists. Sometimes a list would last two or three years, and
sometimes they would deviate in three months.
20133. It depends upon the fluctuations of the trade ?
Yes.
20134. Have you any idea in regard to these small workshops that you have
mentioned, in how many of them persons of the same family only would be
working .•
As to the small nailmakers, I could not say. There are many of them
empty, and a great many of them came into the spike trade ; they have come
into that trade because there is no small work to do.
20135. What I want to find out from you is, taking the number of small
workshops, is it generally the case that members of the same family only are
working in them or not?
Some of them ; sometimes they have some neighbours’ children, and the
neighbours join in with them. They may have a daughter, and they may have
another daughter of somebody else’s to make up two, and then they work
together, and sometimes it would be the same with boys.
20136. You do not know whether most of them have only members of the
same family or not ?
Not always.
(11.) Cc
20137. With
202
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\2th March I889.J
Mr. Price.
\_Continved.
20137. With regard to these shops that are under tlie Act, to your knowledge
are they frecpiently visited by the inspector?
Not so much as they ought to be ; I think they have visited them more lately,
but there was one time when they did not get a visit above once in six months.
The law intended for factory shops and factories was a very good law', but for
want of inspectors, the law became a dead letter, and a portion of tlie people
took very little notice, or no notice at all, of the law.
20138. Are Sedglev and Halesowen in the same district?
No.
20139. They have different inspectors?
Yes, they would be different, I should think. Sedgley is near Wolverhamp-
ton, eight miles from Halesowen.
20140. Do you think it would be a good thing if the inspectors had any
technical know'ledge of tiie trade themselves ?
It would be a great deal the best thing.
20141. Why; do you think the law is evaded in a way that an ordinary man,
without a technical knowledge of the trade, cannot find out ?
I am sure it is evaded in more ways than one, because the inspector does not
know the people, and sometimes he does not know the road to get into the
factories ; they shut them up, or soaiething. At other times they get people at
three or four o’clock in the morning to work, and sometimes they work till nine
or 10 o’clock at night.
20142 I do not quite see why in that case a technical knowledge would be
any assistance to the inspector ?
If they were to eome under a eertain size of nail, a eertain size of chain, a
certain size of rivet or bolt, it would require a man to understand what size the
iron was ; for instance, I myself could tell in a moment if I see the iron, without
gauging it, what size it really was.
20143. What you mean is, that if, as has been suggested, women were not
allowed to work beyond a eertain size of iron, then you would require a man
with technical knowledge to see that the law was not evaded ?
Yes.
20144. What are these spike nails used for ?
For boat-building and ship-building ehiefiy, and a great many of those with
‘arge heads are used for railways. These {^'producing one) are for ship-building
these {producing another) are for tail ways.
20145. What do you call the last you have shown us ?
Railway brobs. What makes this dreadfully hard work is cutting the iron
cold, pqtting the foot on ttie treadle ; it is in bars, and it takes a tremendous
pressure to cut this iron through cold. It ought not to be cut by females at
all.
20146. Ai e all these spikes made by hand ?
Yes.
20147. Are there no spike nails made by maehinery ?
Not in our district.
201 48. But I mean anywhere?
Yes, the railway ones are made by machinery in other districts.
20149. Are the h:ind-made supposed io be better than tiie machine-made ?
As regards ship-building spikes, I cannot say which is the best, whether it is
the macliine or the hand-made, but they get the cheapest from the operatives ;
cheaper than they make them by maehinery.
20150. Then machinery is not having any effect upon hand-made trade by
reason of greater cheapness ?
No
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
203
\2th March 1889.]
Mr, Price.
[ Continued.
No, I believe it does not affect them ; I believe there are machines quiet to-
day because of that ; the operatives are not beat, but they are vvorkinnen ?
IMen and women together.
20169. would they be working cutting that iron ?
They generally cut about half a ton at a time ; sometimes a ton. Of course
they would have a bit of rest between.
20170. You say that the exertion is greater than any woman ought to be
allowed to undertake?
Yes, certainly.
20171. 1 suppose that iron could be cut by machinery in factories?
Yes, that would be a great improvement ; that is what is wanted.
20172. You think it would be better if the work was carried on in factories ?
Yes.
20173. So that the most laborious parr, should be done by machinery ?
Just so.
20174. Are there any other advantages that would be derived from factory
work ?
They would have better shops, better ventilated and sweeter, and the prices
would be more uniform ; there would be many advantages in factories over
small shops.
20175. I suppose there would be an economy, that one blast would work a
number of hearths, for instance ?
That would be an improvement ; if they could work, and come, say from
seven in the morning till six, or at most till seven o’clock at night, it would be
a great blessing to the neighbourhood.
20176. And yet, in spite of these advantages, I think you said there was onlv
one factory ?
There is one factory that has steam power ; there are only about four or five
men who work at that.
20177. How do you account for that fact?
In this way : he does not have a great many orders.
20178, 1 am not speaking about this man individually ; but how do you account
for the fact that, with these advantages which would arise if the work was carried
on in factories, there are not more factories ?
Want of money ; capital is one thing ; and then again, they would derive a
benefit by buying the iuel in larger quantities ; and again, there would be a
profit in gaining iron ; of course there would be pieces, and it would all come in
in a factory.
20179. That is another advantage that the factories have ?
Yes.
20180. And yet, in spite of all these advantages, nearly all the work is carried
on in these shops you tell us ?
Yes.
20181. And you think that that is owing to want of capital ?
Yes ; I have the impression that were some gentlemen to form a company
and form a factory, instead of these small shops, which are such a nuisance, it
would be a blessing to the neighbourhood and to the country.
20182. Have
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
205
\2th March 1889 .]
Mr. Price.
[ Continued.
20182. Have you any idea what capital would be required to start a factory ?
There is no doubt it would take 2,000 1 . or 3,000 1 .
20183. Then J should gather from you that the advantages of a factory would
affect the workmen ; 1 suppose the masters are content enough as it is?
There is no doubt but what they are content enough. Some of the masters
are quite as bad as the factory masters.
20184. What do you mean there by a “ master ” ?
One who delivers or sells the goods to the merchant. I might mention
names, but perhaps that would not be well.
20185. I only want to find out from you what you mean by a “ master ” and
a “ factory master ” ?
A master is one who gets the iron from the warehouse ; he sends his team, or
waggon, or cart, with a load of iron to those shops, and in some instances he has
got tenants under him who work for no one else but himself, and he sends this
iron to the place, it is not half-a-mile perhaps, and he charges them at the
rate of 6 d. per cwt. for delivering the iron and fetching the nails back, while
perhaps | c?. a bundle or \\ d. a cwt. would be about the value. It is very
oppressive to take 6 d. out of a matter of 1 s. 6 d. or 1 s. 81?.; it is a great
reduction.
20186. You have not quite explained to me what you meant by the master
and the factory master ?
The factory master we call the middleman and the other the master.
20187. You say one is as bad as the otlier ?
One is as bad as the other.
20188. What are your ideas about limiting the work that women should be
allowed to do ; I gather from you that you think they ought not to be allowed
to do this heavy work at all?
Certainly not. I have been about with some gentlemen and with some
Members of Parliament, and they thought (and I fell in with their views very
much) that women ought not to make anything, either spikes, rivets, bolts, or
chains, any larger than a quarter of an inch in diameter. That would be this
size {'producing a nail).
201 89. What kind of nail do you call that ?
That is a rose nail.
20190. Then as to young persons and children; how would you limit their
employment ?
I should think young persons and children would come under the same rule
as women.
20191. Then if there was a factory for making these spike nails there would
be no women employed at all ?
1 do not see why they should not be employed, because they could have a
portion of the factory for females and a portion for males.
20192. But is this factory to have a portion devoted to making small nails ?
I do not see why females should not work ; females should work, but they
should not have to do work that kills them.
20193. Therefore, if there were a factory for making spike nails, no women
would be employed in it?
I do not know ; I do not see why they should not ; there are females employed
in factories in different other branches.
20194. In other branches, but not in making spike nails ?
Not in making spike nails.
20195. What would then become of all those women who are now making
spike nails ?
I do not think the injury would be so serious now, providing they were tied
to that small size which I showed you.
( 11 .)
c c 3
20196. A great
206
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
12//i March 1889.] Mr. Price. {Continued.
20196. A great number of women are making those large nails ?
Yes.
20197. You do not call that small one a spike nail, do you r
Yes, it is a spike nail.
20198. What would become ot the women wIjo are making these large nails
which you object to their making r
They would find employment in making the smaller sizes ; only the argument
is for keeping them from men’s work and keeping them in their right place.
20199. Pf’rhaps you might tell us liow many sizes of spike nails there are ?
I have got a list here.
20200. How small would they go, any smaller than what you showed us?
Yes, some smaller than this, but not many. Then there are different kinds
of nails, besides some round ones.
20201. xYow I think you spoke just now of charging so much for carriage ;
is that done by the masters, or among those whom you call foggers ?
That is done by the masters, some of them, not all of them.
20202. And by the foggers also r
The foggers have got their allowance in this list, but they are not satisfied
with that ; they rob the operatives in other ways.
20203. We will come to that in a minute. I understand your complaint
about the carriage is that they charge a great deal more carriage than they
ought to cljarge r
Yes.
20204. That is to say, they would charge so much for carriage when the man
is living but a short distance from the warehouse or the master’s place, and
could take it himself very much more cheaply ?
Yes, but if they were not to pay them the carriage they w ould not employ
them.
20205. Now you said the fogger robs them in other ways ; what do you
mean ?
In charging for tools an excessive price, and sometimes charging for tools
when they have to pay somebody else to mend them ; they will charge them a
shilling a week, and they have to get somebody else to mend them in addition
to that.
20206. By charging for tools you mean for repairing the tools ?
Yes, especially when it is females, they will charge them for it, and they will
have to take the tools to someone else.
20207. They will charge them a shilling a week for repairing the tools, and
not keep them in repair you mean ?
Yes.
20208. So that the woman has to go and pay somebody else to do it after
all?
Yes.
20.m9- As to the waste or loss from the iron that we have heard complaints
made about, have you anything to say ?
They do not lose any iron (that is my argument) ; by the way, they weigh
them. I went to buy half a ton of nails of a fogger myself, and he had got on
the machine on the one side of the weight half a quarry piece ; when he went to
weigh the half ton of nails for me he put that on one side ; that showed me he
had been weighing for his men with half a quarry piece on the scale ; that
would weigh a pound or two pounds.
20210. What do you mean by half a quarry piece ^
Half a tile out of the set of the house floor; we call them quarry pieces.
2021 1. He
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
207
\2th March 1889.] Mr. Price. [Continued.
2021 1. He had got this in the scale you say ?
On the scale ; but when I went to have mine weighed I do not say but what
I had weight, but he had been robbing his workmen jjreviously.
20212. You say that there is nothing unfair in the weight of the iron ?
My argument is that they do not lose iron, but they rather gain than lose if
they are capable, and yet the operatives have to pay
20213. What is the proper allowance }
Two pounds a bundle ; they must make 54 lbs. out of 56 lbs. ; they have
56 lbs. of iron, and they are supposed to make 54 lbs. of nails,
20214. they can make 54 lbs. out of that?
Yes.
20215. Do they get paid for the 54 lbs. ?
They bring them in debtors ; they rob them when they come to weigh them ;
they rob them of a pound or two in the bundle or bag. When the week is up
they charge them from 2 s, to 3 a week out of the trifle they get for the loss
of iron and for tools ; so that if they get 4 or 5 s. a week they take part of
that back again.
20216. Your contention is, that although no waste has been made really, the
weighing is unfair, and that a certain amount is claimed for waste and is taken
off?
Just so.
20217. Do the operatives know that the weighing is unfair themselves ?
Yes, they have complained repeatedly, and 1 have exposed these people in
public before now. I do not think they are quite so bad as they were, but they
carry on that ; but then if the operatives speak about it, they are afraid they
will be dispensed with and not have any work to do. The factory masters are
not all like this ; they do not all charge in this way ; it is only four or five cases.
20218. I think you spoke just now of a bag ?
That is another question ; they put them in a hundredweight bag, and put
them on the machine, and this bag is supposed to be 2 lbs-, and instead of
being 2 lbs. it is not above 1 lb., and yet expect the weight. Say they put 56 lbs.
in a bag, and the bag is 1 lb., it only weighs 55 lbs., and yet they will
demand 56 lbs. “ I have helped you to a bag of so-and-so, I must have 56 lbs.
of nails”; in reality they would only weigh 55 lbs., and there is a penny
deducted of them for the \\aste of 1 lb.
20219. weigh the bag and nails together, and then they make a certain
allowance for the weight of the bag ?
They reckon it two pounds instead of one.
20220. In fact, they charge the workman more for the weight of the bag than
the bag weighs ?
Yes.
20221. The workman has to lose that?
The workman has to lose it.
20222. What kind of weighing machines do they generally use ?
They have got different kinds ; sometimes they are wooden ones with heavy
weights ; sometimes those with a balance.
20223. I mean are they generally ordinary scales, or are they steel yards?
Tliere is a stand in the middle and two wooden scales ; and then sometimes
there is a patent machine, as we term it in our district, with a balance, and
there is a ball which works, which they can alter at any time ; they could make
it against the workman when they felt disposed.
20224. What do you call that machine ?
That is a patent machine.
(11.)
c c 4
20225. Then
208
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\2th March 1889 .]
Mr. Price.
[ Continued.
20225. Then about the trucking system that we have heard of, have you any-
thing to say ?
We have got about three trucksters in Halesowen, not so bad as they used to
be formerly ; I suppose w^e had got 23 .
20226. What do they do, keep shops ?
I'hree keep shops.
20227. make their workmen deal with them r
Yes ; they pay the money to the operatives ; but if they do not lay it out in
the shop they do not work for them long.
20228. I suppose these foggers that you have spoken of get the regular list
price from a master who buys from them ?
Yes, 1 should think so.
20229. iitake another price to pay the operative who works for
them ?
They have got a list to pay by, this No. 1 list as you call it.
20230. And besides that you say they make a profit out of the operatives by
these various means, charging them too much for the carriage, and not weigh-
ing out their goods properly, and in various other ways ?
Yes.
20231. Is there anv foreign competition in your trade to complain of.^
No.
20232. You do not think that comes into the case at all ?
No, I do not think any foreign competition can ever compete with that amount
of price which they pay in our district.
20233. But there are large quantities of machine-made nails imported from
abroad, are there not ?
Coming to England, i have seen some very small ones before now but never
any spikes.
20234. Does the same woman head and point as regards spikes ?
A woman did point that {producing a nail) ; one of the witnesses who will be
called; she did point that and head it.
20235. Is that the way the work is always done; does the same person
always head them and point them ?
No, there is one generally to head and another to point.
20236. That would be in the larger shops, I suppose r
No, in the smaller shops as well as the larger ones ; that is the general rule.
20237. How long do these women work ?
They work from about seven in the morning; wdiere the large shops are under
the Factory Act, tliey would work from seven in the morning to seven in the
evening ; but there are places where they do not pay any heed to the Factory
Act at all, places that I know very well in ray neighbourhood, where they work
when they feel disposed ; they have been had up a time or two, and yet they
keep going on the same.
20238. Working any hours they please?
Yes.
20239. And children too ?
Yes.
20240. Do you think that the hours of w'ork for children are iniurious to
them ?
Quite so.
20241. How young are they when they begin work; at what age do they
begin ?
I have
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
209
\2th March 1889.] Mr. Price. [ Continued,
I have known them at a certain place begin at 11 and 12 years old.
20242. Do you suggest that they ought not to be allowed to work as young
as that ?
They ought not, certainly not, especially such heavy work as tins. When I
was a boy we used to work at small tilings, and females too, they could work
at a small class of work. If it was more in proportion to their physical
powers of course it would not be so injurious.
20243. You mean that you would not let boys work at this class of work ?
Not at those large spikes unless it was boys who were 18 ; they
might venture to do it, I think.
20244. Do you consider that class of work so injurious to the health of
children that they ought to be forbidden to work at it by law ?
Yes, the large size ; but it seems more cruel to the female sex. The mis-
carriages are out of number ; I know one female that has miscarried three
times m 18 months, and yet she keeps working: at it.
20245. D has been suggested before the Committee that some of this work,
working with the oliver lor instance, and so on, is indecent, and is more or less
conducive to immorality ; is that your opinion ?
It certainly is unbecoming for women to be working those large Olivers,
and upon those treadles.
20246. And we have been told also that, particularly in hot weather, they
are obliged to wear very little clothing ; is that the case ?
Very little clothing indeed ; I have seen them stripped with only a skirt or
two on, and no body on their frock or gown ; and I have seen men too (it is
very hard work for them) with their shirts off repeatedly. I have seen a female,
one at my son’s shop, and the perspiration she has had has been such that I
should not think she had a dry thread on.
20247. No, I gather from you that you think the way the work is carried
on is more or less conducive to immorality, and more or less indecent ?
As regards immorality, 1 do not hear much of that, but I expect there is
some middling language used in the places.
20248. Then do you not attach much importance to the allegation that has
been made about the way the work is carried on, that it leads to what is im-
moral ?
I have not heard of much of that.
20249. Do you think that if women were limited to this smaller work, and
children also, and the hours limited of w'omen and children, the cost of the
manufactured goods would be increased at all?
I believe it woidd be a great improvement, because the females work in
competition against the men, the wives against the husbands, females against
young men, and they have a tendency to bring down the prices.
20250. When you are speaking of prices you mean wages ?
Yes.
2025 1 . But by prices I mean the cost of the article itself ; what I want to
find out from you is whether you think that if these various suggestions were
carried out it would not increase the cost of the nails ?
Not the smaller sizes ; they would make those very probably at the same
price that they make them no\v, but the men would perhaps he able to get a
bit more money for the larger size, and that would be a good thing if a man
could get enough to live and keep his wdfe at home, and keep the family
together.
20252. But the cost of the larger sizes would be increased r
A little.
(11.) Dd
20253. Dut
210
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\2th March Mr, PRICE. [Continued.
20253. But you say there is no foreign competition, and therefore in your
opinion tliat would not signify much ?
dhere is no foreign competition at all.
20254. Do I gather from thut you would like all these workshops to be
subjected to the same laws as affect factories and w’orkshops under the Factory
Act?
Yes, it would be a great improvement.
20255. Am I to understand also fiom you that you think the work so
injurious to the health of children that they ought to be forbidden to work at
all up to a certain age ?
Yes.
20256. At this class of work, that is to say, spike nails ?
Yes.
20257. I think I forgot to ask you how many members you have in your
union, your society ?
We have nearly one hundred, something like that in our district, and it would
be fifty in Sedgley, 1 should think.
20258. Have you heard of any intimidation or any means being taken to
prevent witnesses giving evidence ?
Yes.
20259. Lord Thring.~\ Do I understand you with respect to the larger sort of
spiked nails, that supposing the cold iron was cut by machinery it would then
be improper for a woman to work it }
It would not be so bad, not by a lot.
20260. But still am I to understand you that if the cold iron were cut by
machinery it would be improper . then for a women to make the heads and do
the pointing ?
Yes, the larger size they ought not to do.
20261. Then do I really understand you to say that the spike nails, the large
size, are made cheaper by the operatives than in any factory you are acquainted
with. I understood you to say that the large size spike nails, the hand-made
spike nails, are cheaper than the machine-made spike nails ?
Yes, that is so a good deal.
20262. Although the cold iron is cut by machinery in the factory, and they
have all the advantages of one blast ?
Yes.
20263. Still the hand-made nails are cheaper?
They are made cheaper.
20264, You are certain of that ?
Because they have got nothing else to work at in our district unless they work
at that.
20265, Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.'] I do not quite understand the distinction
that you draw between the factory and the large shop ; what is the difference of
the work in the two ?
There is no steam power in large workshops.
20266. And in the factories that you mentioned there is machinery and
steam-power ?
Yes, in one ; we cannot call it a factory where there is no steam-pow’er,
20267. Lord MonJtsicell.'] At what age did you begin to work ?
I began before I was nine.
20268. That never happens now ?
I do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
211
12^A March 1889.] Mr. PiilCE. {Continued.
I (Jo not think it happens now ; but in my younger days the children were
employed in small work, not this class of work.
20269. Do you t’nink the Education Acts are evaded, and that children work
younger than they ought according to the law ?
Yes.
20270. Do vou think there is sufficient school accommodation ?
Yes.
20271. How many can work in a factory costing 3,000 1 ., should you say ?
1 should think it might embrace the whole neighbourhood ; it might embrace
300 or 400, or more tliau that.
20272. When you spoke of half-quarry piece being put into the scale, so as
to make the weights unfair, do you mean simply laid on the scales ?
Yes.
20273. Not put underneath ?
No, on the scale. I do not know whether he thought that I was rather
suspicious when I saw it, because he threw it off.
20274. Anybody could see it ?
They could see it ; how it was on, I cannot say.
20275. How much would it weigh?
A pound and a-half, I should think.
20276. Do you know anything about over-crowding in your neighbourhood ;
is there much over-crowding, do you think ?
Ye.s, there is overcrowding, anti there are things that want to be remedied.
I know 10 houses, and they have got two water-closets and two brew-houses;
that is all there is.
20277. You think the over-crowding is serious, such as must necessarily lead
to immorality ?
There might be some, but not very much ; I do not know that there is very
much over-crowding.
20278. That is not one of your principal complaints ?
No, I do not complain about that.
20279. Earl Broivnlow.'] You told the Chairman that there is no importation
of chains into this country ; is their any exportation ?
To go abroad ? hundreds of tons go abroad.
20280. Chairman.'] As to these spiked nails that are made in factories, where
are they made ; in what part of England ?
Darlaston, Bilston, and Smethwick.
4
20281. How far are those places from you ?
Smethwick is six miles from Halesowen ; Darlaston is about 12 ; and I think
there is one down in Wales, but they are more of that class {pointing to a nail)
than any other class ; they do not make them in factories.
20282. Is there anything else you wish to say?
No, I do not think there is.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mrs. SARAH HACKETT, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is
Examined, as follows :
20283. Chaiaman.] Are you a spike-nail maker ?
Yes.
20284. Does vour husband woik at the same trade ?
Yes.
( 11 .)
D D 2
20285. Do
212
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\2th March 1889.] Mrs. Hackett. {^Continued.
20285. Do vou work in your own shop ?
Yes.
20286. You and your husband together ?
Yes.
20287. Is there anybody else in the shop ?
No.
20288. Then you can work at whatever time you please, and as long as you
like ?
Yes.
20289. What are your general hours of work ?
From 7 in the morning till 9 at night.
20290. And what do you make ; these large spike nails?
These {pointing to a nail).
20291. 1 suppose you allow yourself an hour for dinner ?
I have not any time on account of there being no one in the house to do the
work besides myself. My husband has half-an-hour for his breakfast, an hour
for dinner, and half-an-hour for tea.
20292. Do you do the heading and pointing, both ?
No, tlie pointing.
20293. Your husliand does the heading ?
My husband does the heading and I do the pointing.
20294. How do you cut the iron ?
Cut it down on the cutlers, cold.
20295. Do you do that work, or your husband ?
I and my husband.
20296. Both together
Yes.
20297. And then he does the heading and you do the pointing ?
Yes.
20298. How much can you and your husband earn at that work ?
From 18 ^. to a 1 a week, both of us.
20299. Have you anything to pay out of that ?
Yes, the breezes.
20300. What would that come to ?
Two shillings and threepence per week.
20301. Have you anything to^iay for carriage ?
Twopence per bundle for carriage.
20302. Anything else ; what do you allow for tools, and so on ?
They are our own tools.
20303. What do you allow for the w'ear of them to keep them in repair ?
My husband does them himself.
20304. Then you take out of your 18 ^. or 20 5. 4 j>' V '.U M :.•••%• ! yfi,x)'ff 'f^An >! v<>'.% »<'
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A-
•. .•••* een re-called; is further Examined, as
follows :
20658. Chairnian.~\ I want to refer you to some of your evidence to clear up
one or two points. Will you look at page 31 , Question 1 / 655 , and the following-
questions. You were speaking of the way in which work was done whether in
factories or workshops, and you say that you divide the work into work that is
done in factories and work that is done in domestic workshops ; and then I
ask you whether you mean that all the workshops are domestic workshops, and
you say “ Yes;” then I ask you whether all the persons working in the work-
shop are members of the same family, and you say “ No ; ” and then at
Question 1 / 659, 1 asked you whether you drew a distinction between a domestic
vvorkshof) and a family workshop, and you said “ Yes ; ” 1 do not clearly un-
derstand about these factories and workshops ; perhaps you will explain it a
little more ?
The only difPerence is that one is a family domestic workshop, and the other
is a domestic workshop.
20659. A general domestic workshop, you mean ?
Yes; they are both based on exactly the same principles; the only difference
is that members of one family work in the one shop, and in the other case,
working- under exactly the same conditions, they have a mixed number of people
working in a shop of the same dimensions.
20660. Then in speaking generally, when you speak of a domestic workshop,
you might mean either a shop where all members of the same family were work-
ing, or a shop were outsiders were working ?
Y’es.
2066]. Do you know whether the fact that outsiders were working in a shop,
or members of the same family only would make any difference as to the work-
shop coming under the Factoiy and Workshop Act ?
According to the present Factory Act it makes a difference.
20662. Then with regard to many of these shops, in fact I think the gene-
rality of these shops, that were spoken of, the witnesses said that they were
under the Factory Act, and were visited by factory inspectors ?
Where the people working in the small domestic workshops are not all of
one family ; and our contention is that, whether they be one family, or whether
they be two or three families, the same law should apply.
( 11 .) G G
20663. You
234
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\Ath March 1889 ] Mr. Juggins.
[ Continued.
20('()3. You have not got a copy of the Factory Act with you, have vou ?
No.
20fi()4. Section 16 , dealing with the period of employment and time for meals
for children and young persons in dome'tic workshops, says : “ Where persons
are employed at home, that is to say, in a private house, room, or place which,
though used as a dwelling, is by reason of the work carried on there a factory
or workshop within the meaning of this Act,” and so on. Now in these trades
that you liave been speaking of the work is never carried on in the dwellings ?
No ; so that that part of the Factory Act could not apply ; they are all apart
from the house, not adjoining or connected with the house.
20665. Then, in your opinion, would it be necessary that the Act should be
amended as regards these trades that you have been speaking of in order to
bring them within the spirit of the Act ?
Yes, it is.
20666. On account of the fact that the work is never cari ied on in the actual
dwelling room ?
Yes.
20667. I want you to look at page 49 , (Question 17967 ; there I say to
you : ‘‘ Then am I to understand from you that the principal remedy, in your
opinion, lies in the abolition by some means or other of the whole system of
working in domestic or family workshops ? ” and you say, “Yes ” ; is that what
you meant the Committee to understand, that you would do away with these
domestic workshops altogether, or only that you would have those that do not
come under the Act placed under the Act?
I would do away with them as far as practicable, and I would in place of them
substitute factories specially adapted for carrying 011 work of the same kind.
20668. Now I want to call your attention for a moment to Section 98 of the
Act, where it says : “ The exercise in a private house or private room by the
family dwelling therein, or by^ any of them, of manual labour for the purposes
of gain in or incidental to some of the purposes in this Act in that behalf men-
tioned, shall not of itself constitute such house or room a workshop where the
labour is exercised at irregular intervals, and does not furnish the whole or
principal means of living to such family ” ; do you know whether the term
“ private house ” or “ private room ” v;ould apply to these workshops which
are not dwelling rooms?
It would not apply at all. It would apply more in the tailoring trade or such
trades as are carried on inside the house, but not to the iron trades.
20669. Will you look now at page 41 of the Evidence at No. 17824 and the
following questions; you speak there of children and young women under 18
years ot age working 12 or 14 liours ; you mean, I suppose, inclusive of the
hours for meals ?
Yes ; inclusive of the hours for meals.
20670. Do you know what the hours for meals are
Half-an-hour for breakfast, an hour for dinner, and in some cases they get
half-an-hour for tea, but not in every case.
20671. I hose are the hours that you referred to in the answers to which I
have called your attention?
Yes.
20672. Do you mean to say, then, that children would be working 10 or 12
hours a day ?
Yes.
2067 q. Do you know what the legal limit is for children ?
I believe it is about lOi hours according to the Factory Act. You see where
the Factory Act does not apply, these children work excessive hours because
there is no inspection. • y^ill
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
235
lAth March 1889.] Mr. JuGGINS. \^Cuntinued.
20674. Will you refer to pag:e 165 , Question 19618 ; Lord Thring says:
‘‘ Do I Lindei staiid you that women work in these spike-nail factories r” and
you say, “ No then the next question is, “ Not at all ?” and you say, “ None.”
You told ns you would wish as far as possible to substitute factories for work-
shops ?
Yes, I have said that.
20675. And you have said that women do not work in spike-nail
factories ?
No, they do not.
20676. Do you mean that you would not allow women to work at any kind
of spike-nails in factories r
No; I am quite walling for women to work in factories on spike-nails on the
same conditions that women are employed in other factories, namely, that
women are employed alone by themselves, and not mixed up with the male
operatives ; and that the sizes of work which they should make should be
limited by an Act of Parliament, according to the strength of the female. At
present there is no limit; they are at liberty to make any size, whether they
are strong enough or not ; and as a consequence it often brings on premature
death.
20677. I think you gave us some limit that you would propose ; was that as
to the chains ?
In both trades, chain and nail, no higher than a quarter inch diameter.
20678. Will you now look at page 66 ; it is in Mr. Homer’s evidence. I
want to get from you what you mean by a “fogger.” Mr. Homer, at Question
18208 , is asked, “ You spoke of ‘foggers’ just now; we have not heard of
them before in the chain-making ; does the fogger exist in the chain-making.”
And he says, ‘‘ Yes, almost as bad, if not quite, as in tlie nail trade.” Then he
is asked, “ Will you tell the Committee about the loggers and he says, “ We
may call the fogger a sweater, but in our county they are called foggers, middle-
men ;” do you agree with that, that the fogger is a middleman ?
Yes.
20679. Is there any other kind of middleman who is not a fogger?
A fogger is a man who takes out the work from the master, works between
the operatives and the master, and makes his profit from the operatives and not
from the master.
\
20680. What would you call a factor ?
A factor would be a gentleman who would buy largely and send it into the
open market ; a fogger does not.
20681. Do you mean that the factor would not sell to large masters ?
No, the factor would buy from large masters.
20682. And sell to the merchants?
And sell to the merchants.
20683. You mean that he comes between the merchant and the masters
great or small r
^ Yes.
20684. Now Mr. Burnett in his Report seems to consider that they are
identical, and I want to clear up that. At page 8 he says, “ This middleman,
whethei- he be known as a ‘factor,’ a ‘ sweater,’ or by his local designation of a
‘ fogger,’ is, in reality, the common foe of the legitimate nailmaster, and the
working nailer.” You observe that there, Mr. Burnett speaks of him as being
“ known as a ‘ factor,’ a ‘ sweater,’ or by Ids local designation of a ‘ logger,’” as
if a factor and a fogger were the same thing ?
A “ factor ” and a “ fogger ” are not the same thing ; not as generally under-
stood in the trade.
( 11 .)
G G 2
20685. This
236
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Utk March 1889.] Mr. Juggins. [Contmucd.
20685. This is what I understand you to say, there would be first of all the
operatives, the men or women working: ?
Yes.
20686. They would be working for the occupier of the shop, the head of the
shop, would thev not ?
Yes.
20687. He might be working for a fogger ; that is to sav, selling his goods
to a fogger ? . o cs
Yes.
20688. The fogger, you say, would sell them to a master-
Yes.
20680. And the master to a factor?
Yes.
20690. And the factor to the merchant ?
Yes.
20691. Does that apply equally to chains and nails ?
Yes.
20692. Are chains made in Walsall as well as in the district you are
speaking of ?
Yes, they are better.
20693. A better kind of chain?
Yes.
20694. The same description of chain and a better quality r
The same description of chain, and other descriptions of chains ; curl)-
chains, bridle-chains, and saddle-chains.
20695. But is the quality better of the same description of chain?
V es ; it is all made by men at Walsall ; there is no female labour emplo)'ed.
20696. All made in factories ?
All made in factories.
20697. Do yon know what the wages arc at Walsall?
1 could not give you an exact list, but I suppose they would be about 20 per
cent, higher wages in Walsall than in Cradley.
20698. How is it that they are all made in factories by men there, and that
no women are employed?
I cannot explain why they do not employ women there, unless it is for the
same reason as in other parts of the country Avhere chains are made, and no
women are employed, Cradley Heath and district is the only place in Kngland
where women are employed. In all the chain factories in England the chain is
made by men and not by women except in the district I refer to.
20699. Do they make the smaller kinds at Walsall too ?
Yes, they make the smallest chains at Walsall, as small as anywhere else.
20700. Is any quantity of the chain made at Cradley Heath, and in that
district, sold, at Walsall ?
Yes, large quantities are made at Cradley Heath by females, purchased by
the Walsall manufacturers, and sent out as Walsall chain, simply because it is
purchased cheaper on account of being made by the females than if it were
made by the males in Walsall.
20701. Do you mean that it goes out as Walsall chain, and commands a
better price ?
Yes, 1 do.
20702. Is it marked in any way?
No.
20703. Would
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
237
14/A March 1889.] Mr. JuGGiNS. 'yCorttinved.
20']0'^. Would that be contrary to the Merchandise Marks Act, do you
know ?
Yes, quite contrary.
20704. So that the women working at Cradley Heath are working in compe-
tition with the men at Walsall ?
Yes.
20705. Does that have the effect of cutting down the prices at Walsall ?
It has had a very material effect, inasmuch as the prices at Walsall are
now reduced at least 25 per cent, compared to what they were some
years ago.
20706. And your contention is that the master sells that chain as Walsall
chain at a higher price, and yet gets it made much cheaper by women at
Cradley Heath ?
Yes. I might add here, if you would allow me, that since I have been in
London, we have inquired about the sale price of a dog chain that is made by
these women for, at the most three farthings ; and they are asking 1 s. or
1 3 r?. for it in London.
20707. Dog chains, you say r
Yes.
20708. What would be the value of the material?
About 2 d.
20709. Twopence, and three farthings for the work r
Yes.’
20710. Do you remember a witness, I think it was Mrs. Hackett, who spoke
of her husband complaining of only getting the lower price, the old price, fo
work for which he got the order after notice had been given and accepted
of an increase in wages ; and you e.xplained to the Committee what the
custom was. I want to ask you whetlier there is any equivalent to that in fac-
tory working ?
No, none whatever; the case has never occurred. At times, when conter-
ences of employers have been held at which I have attended, the time or date
has been fixed when the advance should take place, and if it has been necessary
to consider present orders they have always been considered at the conference
arid agreed upon ; but no advantage has ever been taken at the factories of the
factory operatives, not to my knowledge.
20711. Do you know as much about the work in the factories as you do
about that in the workshops ?
I do equally as much, more if anything.
20712, Your society represents also, does it not, the gun-lock filers and
various other trades ?
Yes.
20713. In this gun-lock, filing business is the work generally carried on
under much the same conditions as have been described ?
Yes, in small shops. That was the only reason I had for asking your Lord-
ships to consider the question ; not because there are females or young persons
employed, but simply because the system of domestic workshops in itself is con-
ducive to the reduction of wages rather than otherwise, and I shall prove to
your Lordships this morning that this system has brought down wages till it has
been utterly impossible for the operatives to live when fully employed, their
wages being so low.
20714, That trade is carried on at Darlaston?
Yes.
20715. How far is Darlaston forom Cradley ?
About eight miles.
( 11 .)
G G 3
20716. What
238
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
lAth March 1889.] Mr. Juggins. [^Continued.
i6. What is the cliaracter of the work ?
Perhaps I had better exhibit it. This {exhibiting a lock) is a gun-lock in its
rough state, and here is also a gun-lock finished. This is what is better known
as the old flint lock. This is composed of 18 pieces, every one being separate
and distinct, and undergoing 18 separate and distinct operations. In 1888, as
late as August last, tliis lock was paid for, when finished out of this rough
iron that you see here, and steel together, the sum of 3| ropose to restrict that, 1
understand, not to prevent it altogether ?
Exactly, not to prevent it, but to restrict it to a limited size.
20747. that in the interest of the women, or to prevent their competing
unduly, as you put it, with the men ?
It is in the interest of the women; the women would get equally as much
money as they get now, and the men would get more.
20748. How would the men get more?
Simply because the heavier work would he better paid for.
20749, Some of the work that women now do would be transferred to men ?
Yes.
20750. Do you think the women themselves would acquiesce in that arrange-
ment ?
Yes, the women would only be too willing to acquiesce in that arrangement.
20751. Lord Mo 7 ikswell.^ Where did the man of whom you spoke just now-
get his firing and tools from during that twelve months, when you say he was
paid entirely in provisions ?
There are three or four as a rule working in one shop, and the firing is
generally provided between them.
2075 He must have taken his share of the firing, I suppose ^
It may possibly have been that he would make use of some portion of the
provisions for that.
20753. Then he would give part of the provisions to some other people ?
Yes. I do not say that it was so, but that is the only way he could do it.
20754. You did not mean that his employer would provide firing and tools
for him ?
No.
20755. It is not the arrangement that the men should receive so much in
wages and so much in firing and tools ?
No.
20756. Chairman.^ There is a strike going on at present ?
Yes, we are asking for 9 d. for the lock {‘pointing to a lock), and when that
9 d. is obtained, supposing we obtain it, he will be a very good man as a skilled
mechanic that will be able to realise from 16 to 18 i. a week after all deduc-
tions are made.
20757. Do women work at these locks also?
There are about three or four women. The person to^ whom I refer was a
woman
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
241
\Atk March Mr. JuGGiNS. '[^Continued.
woman, but women’s labour does not interfere much with this ; they are paid
the same price as the men for what they do,
2075 S. Perhaps you will explain this gauge which you have put on the
table ?
That is a gauge with the numbers on, by which Nos. 3 , 4 , and 5 are specified.
I just handed iliat to you in order that you might see that when No. 4 was
given out for No. 3 , or No. 3 for No. 4 , as the case may be, that is how it could
be tested by that gauge ; but all the operatives have not a gauge of that
description.
20759. Duke of Norfolk^ Is that used in measuring the wire or the
chain ?
The chain or the wire.
20760. Some of the holes seem only applicable to wire, being small punched
holes which you could pass a wire through, but not a chain ?
Yes.
20761. ChairmanJ] But it appears to me that in the majority of these cases
it could only be applied to wire ?
Those (jpointing) are for larger sizes, larger than the wire. That gauge only
embraces one portion of the sizes, not the whole of them ; there are larger
gauges that follow on.
20762. How would you apply that to the chain? (The Witness showed how he
would aj)plg it.)
It is the square part of the gauge that measures, not the round part.
20763. So that even the smallest of them could be applied to the chain
itself ?
Yes.
20764. Duke of Norfolk.~\ Then is this used both when the wire is given out
and when the chain is brought back ?
Very often it is not used at all. The iron is given out as it is put in the
warehouse, and placed in certain places according to the sizes.
20765. But in the trade is that gauge looked upon as a protection to the
workman or is it as a protection for the master to see that the workman brings
back what he should ?
It is used in both ways.
20766. It is looked upon as a mutual convenience ?
Yes.
20767. Chairman.) But as a matter of fact, the workman does not use them,
has not got them r
No ; this gauge is rather expensive.
20768. Lord Monksiuell.'] How much would that one cost ?
Five shillings and sixpence. Many of the operatives could not afford to
purchase one.
20769. Chairman.) If that was used by the master and the operatives there
could be no mistake as to the size that the operative was required to
make ?
Yes, no mistake could be made then. I did expect a man here to confirm
my statement about this gun-lock, according to your instructions ; whether he
has turned up at present 1 am not prepared to say.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
H H
( 11 .)
242
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\Aith March 1889 .
SAMUEL PRIEST, having been re-called ; is further Examined, as follows:
20770. Chairman^ Do you use one of those gauges r
Yes.
20771. For your own protection?
For my own protection.
20772. If it was generally used it would be impossible for the operatives to
be deceived as to the size that they Avere required to make, would it not ?
In one sense it would, but really and tndy that piece of chain {exhibiting it)
was given out for No. 3 ; it will go in the No. 4 easily, and when the person
takes that chain in and presents it he will only get the No. 3 price ; the ware-
houseman will beat him down ; in fact, as one of the Witnesses told you, he will
perhaps turn his back round and take no notice of the objection raised; and the
people really have not spirit enough in them to summon the master ; and the
consequence is that piece of chain will be reckoned at the No. 3 price, and they
would lose something like 3 6’. per cwt.
20773. Will you look at page 39 , No. 17787 , in Mr. Juggins’s evidence; I
was asking him as to whether the managers or foremen of the warehouses had
anything to do with settling the prices, and he said “ No do you agree with
that ?
No ; they do have something to do with settling the prices.
20774. Perhaps you could explain that?
In my eiddence I gave a case in point.
20775. Where is it?
At No. 19334 , on page 144 ; that is the case which I had before me in con-
nection with the manager employed by Eliza Tinsley and Company ; one of
their employes brought that report to me, which is stated in my answer to
Question 1 9344 ; and it is a general report that this man Harry Green settles
nearly all the prices, if not quite, in connection with that firm in the chain
line.
20776. It is a general report, you say, but you do not know it of your own
knowledge, as I understand you ?
I do not know it of my own knowledge for this reason: the last day that we
met together to finish that 1889 list I heard Harry Green say jiersonally to me
that Mr. George Green knowed little or nothing about the chain trade, he was
more conversant with the nails than he was with chains.
20777. Do you consider this an exceptional case, or do you mean that,
generally speaking, the warehouseman settles the prices?
This is exceptional.
20778. Then 1 understand from you that as a rule you would agree with
Mr. Juggins that the warehousemen, the head of the warehouse, have nothing
to do with it ?
The majority of warehousemen have nothing to do with settling it.
20779. there are exceptions ?
There are exceptions, and we think it is an evil in the trade.
20780. Did you hear the evidence of Mrs. Hackett, who spoke about her
husband having to execute an order at the old price, although the prices had
been raised since ?
I did.
20781. And the allegation that the master sent in a quantity of iron when
there was likely to be a rise of prices in order to get it made at the old
price ?
I heard the evidence.
20782. Does
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
243
14ifA March 1889.] Samuel Pkiest.
[ Continued.
20782. Does the same thing occur in factories?
The same system occurs in connection with what we call “ reckonings.”
20783. What is that ; I want to understand that ?
\\ hen I have made a quantity of work 1 want to reckon it up to see how
much it comes to, and we in the trade say it is a ‘‘ reckoning.” We have
known instances in the chain trade in factories where the men have begun to
work after having a stiike, and they have continued drawing, as we call it, that
is having some money on account lor two, three, four, five, and as much as six
weeks ; the master has thought it would be a bit doubtful whether the price
would be maintained, and he has allowed his men to go on to that extent, until
in perhaps four or five weeks the prices have dropped, and then he has reckoned
the whole of those men’s wages at the l)ate; actually these men have never had
the rise.
20784. You mean that the men will be living by drawing so much on account
for five or six weeks ?
Yes.
20785. And that if the wages drop during that time the master will pay them
at the reduced price for the whole period ?
Yes.
20786. What would you call that, a short reckoning?
That would be a long reckoning, for six weeks? we want short reckonings.
20787. You mean you want to be paid every week ?
Or in a fortnight at the most. We think if anything can be done a fortnight
should be the extent to which masters are allowed to advance men money on
work; in fact, one case has come under ray notice, and I was deputed to fetch
out, I am not sure whether it was 20 or 22 summonses against one master for
this very system.
20788. Summonses on what ground ?
Because he would not pay on the full price the men turned out a little stupid ;
they would not reckon at the bate, and demanded the full price that he had
agreed to pay at the commencement.
20789. What occurred in that case?
When the master’s sun or the whole of the firm knew what was afoot, they
got the son in a trap, and he followed us and drove to Dudley, and he had to
walk the three miles, and the magistrate’s clerk was not present when we came,
and consequently we lojt a little time, and by the time we could get at him the
son came and paid the money.
20790. The result was that the men got paid in full ?
Yes.
20791. What would happen in a similar case where this long reckoning was
going on if the prices were raised ?
They would pay them at the bate still; that is, they would pay them at the
lower price. If they were paying 3 s. per cwt. in the factory for half-
inch chains at the commencement of the time, should the prices go up to
3 5. 6 d. they would only continue to pay the 3 s.
20791*. Until they had cleared the iron off?
Until they had cleared it off. The same thing occurs in connection with the
chain when we give notice of a strike ; they will give more iron out than the
men can really work up, so that they then can get it at the low prices.
20792. Do you mean in the factories ?
Out-workers as well.
20793, As to the length of the hours of labour, will you look at No. 18181 ,
on page 64 ; Mr. Homer says, in reply to my question, “ It varies very much
indeed; some of them work very long hours, and others do not work so long.
There is a deal said about people working 70 hours a week, and some say 60 ,
(11.) H H 2 and
244
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
14^/i March 1889.]
Samuel Priest.
[ Continued.
and some sa}" 65 hours, and so on ; they give different hours which men work,
bur it strikes me forcibly that it would be a moral impossibility fur a man to
stick to the work and I’ollow it up these many hours ; ” do you agree with
that ?
Ko.
20794. TIjen xMr. Homer goes on to say, “ I do not dispute that the shop is
open all that time, but I think if w^e look at it from the natural point of view,
we should see that there would not be enough to support them at chain-making
so many hours if tliey were to stick close to it, because it is very laborious
work indeed.” Do you mean to say that people will work 60 , 65 , and 70 hours,
sticking close to it ?
Yes; I could draft a list of men whom I know who do work from 60 to 70
hours per week ; scores of cases I could mention at once; I daresay it w’ould
amount to hundreds.
20795. Duke of Norfolk.'] Including meals, do you mean ?
Yes, including meals.
20796. Chairman.] In your opinion 70 hours a week, including meals, would
not be an exceptional thing?
Seventy hours is exceptional.
20797. That would be rarely met wdth ?
That would be rarely met with.
20798. "What about 65 hours?
1 could mention scores of instances of working from 60 to 65 hours.
20799. hear what Mr. Juggins told us about loggers and factors and
the vaiious middlemen?
Yes.
20800. Do you agree with that? What is your definition of a fogger ; what
do you mean when you speak of a fogger ?
When 1 sjieak of a fogger I mean one that will really come between the work-
man and the master, whether he sells him the material, the workmanship, iron
and all, or whether he only sells him the workmanship alone.
20801. And supposing that the man worked himself, would you still call him
a fogger ; if he worked himself and bought chain from the operatives and sold
it, would you call him a fogger?
Yes, I would call him a fogger in that instance.
20802. Do you know whether most of them do work themselves, or whether
most of them act merely as middlemen ?
Most of them act merely as middlemen ; in fact, one in our neighbourhood
whom we conceive to be one of the greatest foggers never shuts a link.
20803. He buys everything, you mean?
He buys everything, and sells only to the masters, so far as we are able to
find out ; and that man alw^ays will pay from one to two list juices less than the
masters aie jTetending to j ay at the time; peoj.'le call him a logger of the worst
kind.
20804. What do you mean by saying that he is one of the “ biggest ” foggers ;
does he do a large business?
Yes, a very large budness.
20805. M'hat is his name ?
Arthur Griffiths.
20806. MTiat kinds of goods does he deal in ^ ■
All kinds ; large cablc'chains, down to odd work, down to small chains.
20807. Only in chains?
Only in chains.
20808. Did
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
245
14M J/rtrcA 1889.] Samuel PiUEST. [Continued.
20808. Did you hear what Mr. Juggins said, in speaking of the lock filing
trade, about a person who liad reeeiveil no wages for a year, but had been
obliged to take all the value of her labour out in goods, provisions ?
I heard that.
20809. Have you known anything similar occur in the chain trade?
I have not ; not for such a length of time.
20810. But you have known cases where people have given their labour for
provisions ?
I have known cases.
20811. Do you know when the last list was settled ?
For chain-makers, in 1889 .
20812. In the last month?
In the last month.
20813. 1^0 expect it will be kept up for any length of time.
We did think it would be kept up.
20814. I asked you whether you do think ?
I think it is broken through now.
20815. Broken through already ?
I think so.
20816, What makes you think that?
From the reports. Even in the case just mentioned the foreman said he
should not pay the list price.
20817. That was on this list price, was it ?
It should have been on the list price of 1889 , and since I have been in
London I have heard that that man went to another firm, and he expected to
receive for his goods taken in 15 s. more than he did receive.
20818. To go back for a moment to that question of trucking more or less
direct, do you know any^ cases of masters, foggers, killing beasts and selling
them to the men ?
Yes.
20819. lias it ever happened to you yourself?
Not to myself. I stated in my evidence that I never dealt with a fogger. I
have two tickets here. Those w^ere given out, sent l>y a fogger. They relate
to meat {handing in the same). That {pointing) is the workman’s name, and
that other name is the man who sent it in ; 8^ lbs. at 8 d. per lb.
20820. Eight and a-half lbs. of what?
Pork.
20821. That is signed hy Stephens ?
Yes.
20822. And this man Stephens is what ?
A fogger and a truckster.
20823. Do you mean that the man would have been in any way obliged to
buy his meat there ?
The employer did not ask the man if he would have it, but sent the meat
without asking.
20824. You mean the man did not ask for it either ?
No, the man did not know that it was going to be sent.
20825. The employer sent the meat, and deducted so much out of his
wages ?
Deducted so much out of his wages when he came to reckon it?
20826, Lord Basing.'] How do you know this ?
In this particular case I worked for the man at the time.
(11.) HH3
20827, This
246
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\Uh March 1889 .] Samuel Priest. {Cod'mued.
2082 /. This p6rson told you that he was not asked whether he would take
meat, but the ticket and the meat were sent to him ^
Yes.
20828. And the amount of it was deducted from his wages?
Deducted from his wages when he reckoned it up.
20829. And you said just now he had not the spirit to send it back or
decline to take it ?
Not this man.
20830. Of course he could have done so if he chose ?
He could have demanded the whole of his waues.
20831. He could have sent back the meat ?
He could have sent it back.
20832. He had not spirit to do that, according to your description ?
Not till afterwards; he has done it at last ; the last piece of meat that was
sent he sent back again, and from that time to this he has not had a blow of
work from that master.
20833. Has he got work elsewhere ?
Yes.
20834. ChairmanP\ Did you say that you are working for this same man to
whom the ticket was sent?
I work for the man.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. GEORGE GREEN, is called in ; and having been sworn, is ,
Examined, as follows :
20835. Chairman^ You are a member of the 6rm of Eliza Tinsley &
Co.?
Yes.
20836. How do you describe the firm ; what is the business ?
Nail and chain manufacturers.
20837. We have a good many terms used; sometimes people have been
called masters, and sometimes manufacturers ; you call yourselves manu-
facturers ?
We are manufacturers, and we are also merchants.
20838. Where is vour place of business ?
At Old Hill.
20839. That is near Dudley ?
Yes.
20840. Do you sell and deal in all kinds of chains ?
Yes.
2084] . Do you make all kinds of chains ?
Not all kinds of chain; we do not make the very small chain; we make
them small down as far as No. 10 or No. 12, but the very" small ones are made
some in Birmingham and some in Walsall, and then we make the large chains,
up to seven-eighths. Then my brother is a manufacturer of large cables, and in
conjunction with him we sell those, the largest.
20842. Then you deal also in nails of all kinds ?
Yes.
20843. Spike nails ?
Yes ; we manufacture all kinds of wrought or hand-made nails from the
smallest to the largest.
20844. When
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
247
\Ath March 1889 .]
Mr. Green.
[ Continued.
20844. When you say that you manufacture them, do you manufacture them
yourselves ?
The custom is to buy the iron from the iron manufacturer in bundles of
60 lbs. each, deliver that iron out to the workmen, and they take it home and
work it up in their small shops, and bring to us on Saturday the nails which
they have made from the iron. We reckon the nails, pay them the money, and
then they take their iron out again that same Saturday for the next week’s
work.
20845. Have you any factory of your own ?
We have a small factory where we employ about ten or a dozen of these small
nail-makers in making dogs and spikes.
20846. Where is the factory?
At Old Hill. We also have large shops in which some chain-makers work
making chains from five-eighths up to seven-eighths.
The large cable chains are all made in the large factory ?
And those your brother makes ?
That is a separate business ?
You act as agent for him :
Up to what sized chain is chain made in these large workshops of
which you have spoken ?
We make the larger sizes as large as 3 inches or more in diameter ; and about
five-eighths is, as a rule, the smallest size that is made in the factory. A smaller
size than five-eighths, and five-eighths up to seven-eighths, is made in the
large workshops.
20852. As to these large workshops that you speak of, do I understand that
they belong to yourselves ?
No ; we have large shops in which we employ about 12 to 16 hands.
20853. Belonging to you?
Belonging to ourselves. Those shops are under the control of our foreman
in our own yard; but all the other chains, all the other sizes under seven-eighths
we buy from men who take the iron from us in bundles to their own shops
and work it up, or have it worked up, in them.
20854. What proportion of your business is manufactured on your own
premises, in your own shops and factory, and what proportion is made by
these out- workers ?
I should think we do not manufacture in our own workshops more than 15
per cent.
20855. A he remainder is done in this way : that you give out the iron and
take back the work ?
Yes.
20856. You have represented the manufacturers, have you not, several times i
I have not particularly represented them in the chain trade ; I have been at
many meetings where the wages in the nail trade have had to be arranged, but
in the chain trade there has never been any system such as there has been in
the nail trade.
20857. You have represented them more in the nail trade ?
Yes.
20858. Is there an association of the masters?
In the nail trade, yes.
( 11 .)
20847.
Yes.
20848.
Yes.
20849.
Yes.
20850.
Yes.
20851.
H H 4
20859
248
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\Uh March Mr. Green. [Continued.
20859. Are you the secretary of that?
Yes. I am secretary of that so far as it is in existence. We hardly consider
that we have an organised association now ; but if anything had to he done
such as asking the em()loyers to meet to discuss any question, I should no
doubt be applied to, and very likely if I were not applied to I should take the
step myself of calling a meeting of the employers.
20860. Have you had anything to do with settling this last price list of
chains ?
Yes.
20861. Last month?
Yes.
20862. And have you had to do with settling former priee lists?
No ; in fact in the cliain trade 1 do not know that there has ever before been
a case where the employers and employed have met together and attempted to
agree upon a list. This is the first attempt that way.
20863. they have in the nail trade, have they not?
Yes, as far back as we can trace.
20864. Would it be more convenient if you confine yourself to the chain trade
first, and then speak of the nail trade?
I should think it would be.
20865. Do you consider the chain trade to be in a worse condition from the
workman’s point of view than the nail trade ?
No ; one time with another the chainmakers can do better than the nail-
makers.
20866. We have had it suggested in evidence that a great number of hands
formerly employed in making nails and so on have gone into the chain trade
lately ; is that the case ?
No ; I do not know a case where a man or a woman who had been a nail
maker, say up to 20 or 25 years of age, afterwards turned to making chains ;
there may have been isolated cases, but I cannot at the present time call one
to mind.
20867. You do not think it is a fact that owing to the competition of machine-
made nails, and so on, a good many of the nailmakers have been forced into
other trades, and among them into this trade of making chains ?
No ; 1 think what is complained of, and what those who represent the chain-
makers feel, is that the nail trade is, I suppose we may call it, a declining trade,
and the nailmakers’ children do not care to learn to make nails, and they go
into the chain shops, their main reason being that if they learn to make chains
when they are young, they will do better in life.
20868. Then that is not in your opinion one of the causes of the competition
that we have heard of?
Competition on the part of the chainmakeis ?
20869. On the part of the chainmakers?
Well, that does cause the competition ; all the surplusage hands in the nail
trade who do not care to learn to make nails go into the chain trade, because
they can do better ; so that the chain trade is, and has been for the last 20
years overhanded, more labour than work for it.
20870. The competition is very severe, is it?
It has been ; at the present time trade is comparatively good.
20871. Do you mean that there is more demand now ?
Yes.
20872. But not less labour employed ?
No.
20873. But
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
249
14])ect to young persons
who are under the control of their parents, some of whom may work their
children harder than they ought to work them.
21060. You do not think it advisable to interfere with the female labour, or
only as little as possible ?
1 do not, only so far as giving the [;ower to the Inspector, where he
sees a case of ill-health on the part of young people, to stop them from
working.
21061. If female labour was limited in the way that has been suggested, do
you think that would raise wages ?
No, I do not think that it would have any practical effect, because, from what
I have seen of this examination and the reports, there is no likelihood, I think,
of any recommendation being made to interfere with the sizes in a manner
which will practically affect the trade.
21062. Let me understand ; do you mean that you do not think that if the
recommendations which have been made before this Committee were carried
out for limiting the sizes and the hours of female labour, that would have any
effect in raising wages?
Not any particular effect. For instance, here is Mr. Juggins, wdio says
that a woman ought only to he allowed to make \ inch. Mr. Homer says
a woman ought to be able to make No. 1 ; that is a size larger. Now,
I say a woman may be allowed to make 5 -iCths. I thought they were making
3 - 16 ths; they did use to make 5 - 16 ths; but that has got to be an under-
stood thing now that that is very strong work, and very few young women will
undertake it; so that now the largest size that women ever make as a rule is
No. 1; so that if the medium size, which has been placed belore you, should
be recommended it will practically have no effect on the trade ; it is like
recommending something that is already carried out.
21063. Then I presume you would not be in favour of doing away with these
workshops altogether, and substituting factories altogether for them ?
No; in fact, 1 have very strong reasons for believing that the main reason
for recommending factories is to drive the I'emale labour out of the chain and
nail trades.
21064. You think that that is the object ot their preferring faclories ?
I do. I think it is that federation of which Mr. Juggins is secretary ; its
great aim is to attack trade where female lal)our competes wdth men, and by
outcries, such has have been got up against the nail ami chain trades and other-
wise, to try to influence the mind of the country and the Legislature in such a
way as shall bring legislation about which will practically make it difficult for
women or females, young or old, to compete with men in the trade that they are
concerned in.
21065. What would be the result if the women labour was practically put an
end to in the trade ?
I think in the long run we must lose a great portion of the foreign
trade ; in the home trade the wages must go up for that class of work
which females now make, but I think it would make no difference to the
( 11 .) LL2 orders,
26S
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
14^/i March 1889.] Mr. Green. iContinued.
orders, but the same quantity of orders would come at the extra price, at the
expense of tlie farmer and the wheelwright, and the carpenter and the black-
smith all over the kingdom.
21 odd. Do you think that the cost to the consumer would be much increased ?
Certainly.
21067. Did you hear the evidence that was given as to the proportion be-
tween the cost of labour and the material in a certain kind of chain, and the
retail selling price ?
A large back-band, it was / s. 6 d., I think.
21068. Seven shillings and sixpence I think was the selling price, and the labour
was somewhere about 1 ^ d., and the material something like 2 d. In a case of
that kind, where there is such an enormous difference between the selling price
to the consume)’ and the cost of labour and material, would any little addition
to the cost of labour have any effect upon the consumer?
But that back-band sold at 7 s. 6 d. is such an excejitional thing ; they are sold
at about 14 .?. a cwt. to the ironmongers; the ironmongers as a rule sell them ;
if a back- band has been sold in London for 7 •!>'• 6 c 7 . then it must have been
under very e.vceptional circumstances indeed.
21069. What do you suppose is the general price r
I should suppose that the general price would be 1 .y. G d. to 2 s.
21070. Supposing it was 2 and the labour cost evenif the labour
were doubled would it affect the price to the consumer r
The labour w'ould cost more than that on that back-band ; it would cost 3 d.
•21071 Say the labour was 3 d., and the cost to the consumer was 2 s., would
any small increase in the labour, for instance, another penny, make any differ-
ence to the consumer?
1 have no doubt it would in the long run.
21072. You think it would :
Yes ; undoubtedly the consumer has to pay.
21073. Even where the labour bears such a small proportion to the cost ?
Yes.
21074. You think that the difference would not come out of the various
people who make a profit between the workman and the consumer?
1 do not think it would.
21073. Could you tell the Committee how many hands such an article as
that is likely to go through ?
We should sell it ourselves to the i)’cnmonger, and, in a country district, in
country towns, the ironmonger would sell the back-bands to wheelwrights
and blacksmiths, who would sell to the consumer, in this case of 7 s. Q d.
for a back -band, the back-band would be sold by a wholesale saddler’s iron-
monger. I have vritten to one in this case, and he told me that he is selling
his back-bands at 24 s. a cwt., that is about 2 | d. pei’ pound ; he is selling them
to the wheelwrights and carpenters and those who use them; this 7 s 6 d. could
only have been because it was bought at some very respectable saddler’s in the
West End.
21076. The “ very respectable” means charging about three times as much
as somebody else ?
Yes.
21077. There were other examples given, at Liverpool and other places, if
I remember right, not quite so high, but much higher than any you have
mentioned ?
Yes, 1 have written about that, I wrote to Southport, and I have a letter
here telling me that the price at which the back-band was sold there was 3
to4^. 6 < 7 . ; that is, the same as ]Mr. Juggins stated. Now, in a letter from
Liverpool which I had from a firm I wrote particularly to, they tell me that
they should think that 4 d. per pound would be ample to sell them at.
21078. How
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
269
\Atfi March 1889.] Mr. Green.
\_Conlinucd.
21078. How much would that be?
That| would be 1 5. 4 d. for a back-band ; the back-band weighs about
4 lbs. After my friend writes across liis letter and says, “The price you
name must he a very fancy price, but I have made further inquiries and I find
that there are saddlers’ ironmongers who occasionally sell an exceptional back-
hand to people who do not know anything about the value, audit is just possible
that they may charge 5 s. for them.” Another letter in London from a large
wholesale manager says, '* 1 read the item you mention, and thought it a
monstrous exaggeration ; but I did not think that it applied to a back-band, nor
do I think that article is ever sold at that price ; the usual retail price is 2 ^ d.
per pound, or about 1 s. the whole lot. It is not a thing that could fetch a
fancy price, as it is only used by carmen and contractors. I should think it
refers to a fancy dog-chain, or something like that sold to some swell at the West-
end, where they do get a long price at times.”
21079. Could you give us at all what proportion the labour would bear to the
retail price which the consumer would generally pay:
You mean what percentage would go to the retailer ?
:^io8o. I mean what proportion the price of the labour would bear; what
percentage of the price which the consumer would pay would represent
labour ?
No, I could not tell you that; I know that speaking of the retailers, say the
ironmongers, we sell our back-bands to, we should sell them at 15 a cwt. I
have got a list here that we have been selling at for some time in a regular way,
back-bands at 15 per cwt. ; that is our wholesale price now to regular iron-
mongers who would order half-a-dozen, or a dozen, or a cwt. ; but if he
wanted three cwt. the chances are that he would think he ought to buy theni
cheaper, and ask us for a cheaper price. That ironmonger in retailing that
back-band, 1 consider, v ould be sure to sell it at not more than 3 d. per lb.,
possibly 4 d,
21081. Threepence per lb. would be 1 s. for the whole?
Yes, put it at 4 d., and I think that is as much as any ironmonger in England
would ask.
21082. I think you told us just now that they were selling at Southport for
3 6 d. ?
Three shillings and sixpence to 4 ,y. 6 d. by saddlers’ ironmongers.
21083= How do you account for that, for you said just nowthat a niati would
not charge more than 1 s. for it ?
But that is a saddler’s ironmonger; he would get a different price altogether ;
he serves directly the gentlemen or noblemen in the district ; and I understand
that he has a very good price indeed. My customer says that he is entitled to
get a very good price, because sometimes he gives very long credit, a year or
two years ; and he dwells upon it in that manner.
2108.1. What I wanted to find out from you, and my object in asking you
whether you could give us the proportion that the labour bore to the consumer’s
price, wa'^ this : Judging by this example of the chain, it does not aj)pear to me
that anything like a reasonable increase of wages, such as 1 will suppose would
take place if women were excluded, would have any large effect upon the con-
sumer ; the proportion is so small that if the wages were increased 50 per
cent, it would not appear to make much difference?
1 think it would ; and not only that, but it would very likely cause a great
many of the chains made in our district to be made by the smiths in their own
district ; so that you would be going back again to old primitive times-
21085. Now about those outside people working at making chains occa-
sionally ; it has been complained before us that men working in pits and so on
very often did a little work in this way and sold the chain very cheap, and that
that cut down the prices of the regular ehainmakers ; do you agree with that ?
I do not think that there is any praetical difficulty there. It would be the
case in this way : say a miner who has learned to make chains when he was
(11.) L ,3 young
2/0
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
3Iarch 1889.J Mr. Green. {^Continued.
young, and has taken to mining afterwards, and either he has a large family,
or would be an exceptionally steady man, who wanted to make money ; he may
work a little at night and get 3 s. or 4 n. more added to his weekly income ;
but they are very exceptional cases.
21086. We export a considerable quantity of chain, do we not r
Yes.
21087. Is that export trade subject to much foreign competition?
No, 1 do not think that any other nation is beating us in any market, not
where the price only is concerned, or in any other respect. We used to do a
large trade with Germany, but the higher tariff that they have jiut on there has
had the result that we ship very few chains there now.
21088. I understand you also to say tliat in the case of the United States the
tariff has practically killed it ?
PractY'ally it has cleared it out altogether for many years past,
21089. Do we import chain at all ?
None.
21090. How about nails ; we do export nails largely ?
Wrought nails are exported, certain kinds of wrought nails. I should think
15 per cent., perhaps, of the nails that are made are exported; certainly not
more.
21091. Where do they go tor
I do not know wliei e ; the East and West Indies, South America, Australia,
and New Zealand.
21092. Is that trade keeping up r
No ; it is surprising that it keeps employed as many hands as it does consider-
ing the extraordinary inroad that the machine-made r.ail makes.
21093. We do import nails largely, do we not ?
Not wrought nails ; we do import machine-made horse nails. We are agents
j’or a Berlin firm for the sale of machine-made horse nails.
21094. We import no wrought nails, I suppose?
No hand-made nails, none whatever,
21095. All machine-made ?
Yes.
21096. And these machine-made nails, are they gradually superseding the
hand-made ?
In a general way (not referring to machine-made horse nails) they are making
great inroads, and yet it is surprising that the wrought nails, the hand-made
nails, are so much in demand as they are now.
21007. Are they superior to the machine-made?
Well, we think so.
21098. Is it not the case that machine-made horse nails are driving out the
hand-made horse nails ?
It practically has done that.
21099. What is the kind of nail that is supposed to be better in hand-made
nails '
All those nails that are in those boxes, this general sort, the shoe nails that
are put into working-men’s boots, those are undoubtedly better than the cast
or malleable hobs or shoe nails.
2 1 1 00. Are these machine-made horse nails made in England ?
There are some made in England.
21101. Are many imported ?
A large quantity.
21102. Where do they come from, do you know.-'
They come from Norway and Germany, It appears that a German firm took
up
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
271
\Ath March 1889.] Mi\ Gkeen. \_Con tinned.
up an American patent and put down macliinery near Berlin to make horse-
nails, and the Norwegians did the same at Clnistiania, and I do not know how
it is, hut no engineers in England have troubled their heads aljout the trade,
and the consequence is that those being the best nails, there is no doubt at all
they are taking more or less the whole of the trade in England.
21103. Then you would say that the foreign goods are competing successfully
with the home-made goods ?
Only in horse nails.
21 104. Not in other nails?
No.
21105. I think you said that it was astonishing what a great demand there
still is for the hand-made nails t
I think it is surprising, looking at it from the point of view of the great
quantity of nails now made l)y machinery which were not made by machinery
twenty years ago, that we should have as much demand for hand-made nails
now as we have.
21106. But do I understand you to say that the hand-made nails will hold
their own against machine-made nails of the same kind ?
No, the hand-made nails are of multitudinous sizes and kinds, and many
of those of different shapes and different sorts ; some of those sliapes the
machine-made nails have beaten altogether; but there is still a demand for the
other shapes, and these the machine-made nail does not beat, these keep the
nailers fairly well engaged.
21107, ^ think you said that there had not been much influx into the chain
trade of those that have been thrown out of work in the nail trade ?
Not of those thrown out of work, only the young people turn to it.
21 108. I think you said the nail trade w^as in a declining condition ?
It does not get any larger, it is still declining, no doubt,
21109. 1^0 you look upon it as only a matter of time when the machine-
made nail will supersede the others entirely?
No, I do not think it will supersede all of them.
21! 10. I think you did not answer me whether, in your opinion, there was
anything immodest, or indecent, or tending to immorality in the way in which
the work was carried on in these trades ?
Certainly not. In the nail trade there is no chance for that becaiise there is
either the mother and father, or the mother alone, or the father alone, with the
children, and only about four, sometimes five, work in the same shop. Now in
the chain shoi)S, sometimes ten will work in one shop belonging to one man,
tbe wife or the man's own daughters may not work in it, but he is almost sure
to have some of his sons in it, and they are all neighbours round about, so that
it is impossible for anything to be done that is wrong in those shops. Now'
Mr. llylett, as I understood last week, stated tliat where the whole family were
engaged in a shop, there was no immorality, but where there was a man at the
head of a shop only, he w'as out sometimes, and when he was out, as I under-
stood, he meant to say that young men and young women did immoral
things ; I say that such a thing as that has never occurred, for any immorality
to be committed in a shop and other peo[>le to be present with those engaged
in it.
21111. As to the overcrowding and the insanitary condition of the places,
have you anything to say upon that point ?
I do not see how they can be overcrowded. A shop of 10 hearths, for
instance, wmuld be 50 feet long and 14 feet wide, something like that.
21112. That would be a workshop under the Act, subject to the Factory
Act ?
One of these big chain shops under the Workshops Act.
21113. But I am alluding to the small domestic family workshops?
(11) L L 4
Even
272
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOUE THE
lAth March 1889.] Mr. Green. [Continued.
Even those are not very small l)uildings ; they are about 14 ft. by 14 ft., the
size between these tables, and have four people. The hearth is where this table
is, and the people work each side ; and up to the eaves is eight or nine feet, and
there is the span of the roof for ventilation. They always have four windows
in. I never felt anything oppressive in them.
21114. Do T take this from you, that in the large majority of cases these
small shops are in a proper sanitary condition, and have sufficient air and light
and ventilation r
Plenty of it. The surroundings may be bad. There are some shops where
the surrounding sanitary conditions are bad.
21115. The drainage, you mean?
Yes ; the drainage, or perhaps a pig -stye or some other place close to it.
Such places as those ought to be better looked after by the sanitary inspector.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Ordered, That tins Committee be adjourned to To-morrow,
Twelve o’clock.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTiiM.
273
Die Veneris^ 15 "^ Martii^ 1889 .
LORDS PRESENT:
Duke of Norfolk.
Earl of Derby.
Earl Broavnlow.
Lord Kenry {Earl of Dunraven and
Mount-Earl).
Lord Sandhurst.
Lord Monkswell.'
Lord Thring.
LORD KENRY (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl), in the Chair.
Mr. GEORGE GREEN, having been re-called, is further Examined,
as follows :
21116. Chairman.^) I do not think I asked you any questions about the
wages earned generally in the trade, or the hours of work ; do you think that
the hours of work are excessive, and the wages insufficient ? •',' ^4^
The hours of work I do not consider to be excessive. With regard to the
chain-makers, I think, according to the evidence that was given, the highest
was an average of 60 hours per week ; but from my people I learn that the
average would not be more than 10 hours a day for five days, and half a day on
Saturday ; that would be 55 hours per week ; that is as near as it can be
given.
21117. You get that from the people making chains for you ?
We get it from our foremen, from those at home ; I talked the matter over
with them before I came up this week, and they were quite satisfied that the
average hours of labour in the chain trade were not more than 55 per week.
In the nail trade, t am inclined to think that they may run to three, or even
five more. In chains, the last average of wages which we got out of our books
(an average running over four weeks) was : for women, 8s. 2d.; young women,
4 d. ; youths, 12.9. 7 d.\ less \2h per cent., which would be about the cost
of their breeze and the rent of their own shop. Then, our men are getting, on
an average, 26 5. 11 d. net per week.
21118. What would the gross wages of the men be ?
You see many of them work in our workshops, and the others work in their
own shops ; 1 should say that, if you put 20 per cent, on what I have stated,
you have tlien what the gross would be; but this 26 s. 1 1 d. is the actual money
which the men would take home on a Saturday night, the average of our men’s
earnings ; some of them will get 2 1.
21119. But are you speaking of tlie men working in your own shops ?
Yes.
21120. What do you mean by your own shops ?
In our own chain shops we have about ten or a dozen men working, making
small chains.
21121. I asked you yesterday, at Question 20990, this question : “ I think
you told me how many hands work on your own premises ? ” and your answer
was, “ In the chain-making, about 12 to 14.”?
(11.) Mm
Twelve
274
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
}5fh March 1889.] Mr. Green. [ Cun tinned.
Tiyelve to 14 , or 10 to 12 ; I am not sure how many we have now. We had
a strike a little while ago. (The exaet quantity, 1 find, is 13 .)
21 12 2. Do they all work in one shop ?
There are three shops really ; we built them at three different times ; hut
they are all connected, and form one long shop now.
21 1 23. What kind of chain are they making ?
From 7 - 8 ths in diameter down to half an inch.
21124. How do you pay these men ?
We pay them by the list, of which you have a copy.
2 1 1 25. I mean so much a bundle or per cwt. ?
So much per cwt. ; half inch, 4 ; the half inch, best, 5^. 4 d.
2112b. Then you deduct from that how much ?
Twenty-five per cent, for the shop and tools and breeze or gleeds.
21127. then you say that, after deducting that 25 per cent, the average
earnings of each man amounts to 26 5. 1 1 ?
Yes.
21128. Only men are employed in that?
Only men.
21 129. Would That continue all the year round ?
No: at least, it may do for this year, if trade keeps good; but lately, within
the last six weeks, there has been an advance of wages, equal, I should think,
to 15 per cent., possibly a little more.
21130. Take last year for instance; would these men have been earning
26 s. 11 d. all the year round ?
No ; 1 think they would earn last year about 22 s.
21131. Twenty-two shillings throughout the year ?
Yes. I should think that the advance in the wages would make about that
difference, as near as I can guess.
21132. And each man of those working for you would earn that much?
Yes.
21133. Should you say that it is about the same average in the case bf the
shops that work for you, not ymur own shops ?
I could not tell you definitely about those, because it is so difficult to arrive
at it. A father engaged in making country work simply puts parts together;
we cannot tell exactly how much of the work he has done himself.
21 134. You would know the average that you pay to him?
The heads of the shojis bring, not only their own work, but the work of
othe)- people joined together in one cow-tie or one back -band.
21 135. But you would know how much the head of the shop, the man who
brouglit the woi k, got ?
He would get quite as much as the 26 5. 11 d., I should think.
21136. You cannot tell whether that would represent the work of himself
only, or, perhaps, two or three other people?
I cannot; we cannot distinguish by the manner in which we pay these out
men, how much of the money we pay them is for their own labour, independent
of those who work in the shop with them.
2 1 137. With regard to this work you make in your own shops, is it special ?
The better class of chains for crane purposes, and to do work in connection
with mines.
21138. A superior quality ?
Yes.
21139. And
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
2/5
I5th 3Iarch Mr. Green. {^Continued.
21139. And that would command higher wages than the general average, 1
presume ?
Yes.
21 140. A great de;il higher?
it may make a dillerence of 12 .^ to 15 jier cent, upon what the men earn in
a week.
21141. Should 1 be right in saying that you have this work done in your
own shops in order that you may be able to be certain that it is of the best
quality ?
Yes.
21 142. And that von may employ the best men ?
Yes.
21143. In that list of your workmen’s w^ages which you handed in yes-
terday, did you give us the number of them in the same way as you furnished
Mr. Burnett with it?
The numbers would be about the same. In that list which I gave to Mr. Burnett
I put down 500 as a basis to give him the average number of women and girls and
men in that basis of 500 ; and 1 said yesterday that our quantity of workpeople
must amount, in the nail trade, to 500 or 600 , and that is reekoning them to
work entii’ely for us,
21 144. Do you generally maintain about the same number?
Yes.
21145- You have not got more of them working now than usual, or about
the same ?
No, no more ; our trade is about the same as it has been for the last five, or
six, or seven years.
21 146. Do you know at all about the wages that can be earned generally for
the commoner kind of work?
In the chain trade do you mean ?
21147. Chains and nails?
Yes. You do not wish to know at all any particulars ; you wash to know the
average, 1 presume ?
2114S. Yes; I want in fact to know generally whether, in your opinion, the
wages are very insufficient, very small?
I'he half-inch chain is the basis upon which we regularly reckon ; and the
price for that now is 3 i'. G d. per cwt. ; and I have a note here that a man can
make, without hurting himself, seven cwt. per week ; that is what, if I recollect
rightly, Mr. Homer, who represents the workpeople, stated last week; that is
24 s. 6 d. per week, from whieh you will deduct 25 per cent., which wmuld leave
17 5. 8 d. net earnings.
21149. Yhat would be a man working alone?
Yes, at the commonest work.
21150. Now about the women ?
A woman would make of No. 1 chain 2| cwt. per week at 6 5. 3 ^/. per cwt.,
that is 14 s. gross ; 25 per cent, oil that leaves 10 6 d. net.
21 351. And young persons and children ?
I eould not tell you what they get ; they commence with blowing at 2 s. 6 d.
a week, the small bellows for making the small chains, and they will go to
3 s. 6 d. y then they will learn to make chains. and get perhaps 4 s. 6d . ; and as
they get older, if they are sharp and quick at the work, some of them, by tlie
time they are 16 or 18 years of age, will be able to get 6 s., 7 s., or 8 s. a week.
21152. These calculations are based upon the list prices?
Yes.
( 11 .)
M M 2
21 ’53 Is
2/6
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\5th 3Ia7-ch 1889 .]
Mr. Green.
[ Continued.
•2 1 153. Is that the list that was settledlast month ?
Yes. ( The same is handed in, see Appendix G.)
2 I ] 34. Is that adhered to now ?
Yes, I believe so. I think you found yesterday that Mr. Priest, who was
giving evidence, said that he believed it had broken down, and his reason was
because one of our managers, or the manager, had been buying umler this
list. I said yesterday that 1 did not think it could be true. My people at
home, 1 suppose, have this morning seen the Birmingham papers, in which
there would be a report of yesterday’s evidence ; and when I reached here this
telegram was placed in my hands ; it says, “ H. G. lias not deviated Irom the
arranged list.”
21 155. I think you told us that, in your opinion, probably it was some dis-
pute about tlie quality ?
No doubt about it.
21156. As to these foggers or large shopmen, you told us that, in your
opinion, they were an advantage and a necessity for the workmen, because they
enabled the workmen to go on woiking by giving them a certain price when
the manufacturers, like yourself, were not doing anything r
Weil, as to the system being a necessity, I do not know that it is so well
for the workmen, perhaps, that these men are there to take their chains, and
put them into stock at a lower price; but I do not see how anything can be
done to interfere with them, because tliey are simply men wdio own large shops;
they work as a rule at one of the blocks in that shop, and, as I said yesterday,
if any of these men has made a little money, and any neighbouring chainmaker
wants to sell 28 lbs. or 56 lbs. of chain which he cannot sell to the regular
manufacturers, tiiis man simply buys it of him.
21 157. What I wmnted to gather from you is wheiher in your opinion they
are an advantage or not to the workmen ; without considering whether it
would be possible to do aw-ay with them, do you think that the people would
le better off without them?
Well, I think they wmuld.
21 158. Then are thev of any advantage to the manufacturer ?
No.
2i 159. 1 think you told us that when you got large orders, more than you
could execute yourself, then you bought from them ?
Exceptionally, we have done so.
21160. And other manufacturers do the same, I presume?
Yes.
21 i6i. Then they would be an advantage to the manufacturer to this extent,
that they would enable him to take larger orders than he otherwise could
take ?
It is not a question of taking larger orders ; sometimes you run short ;
there are so many sizes of chains made, and so many qualities, and there may
be a run upon a certain size of orders for that size, and w’e may have all our
stock, as we say, cleaned out ; and if another order comes then, and our cus-
tomer cannot wait until we make that chain, then we should go to the
large shopman, and buy from him only for export, though never for country
work.
21162. Only for export, you say ly
Only for export.
21163. Then he is an advantage to you in that respect .'
In that respect.
21164. Speaking of manufacturers generally, do they only buy for export
from these foggers ?
Many of them only buy for export.
2 1 1 65. I presume
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
277
\5th March 1889.] Mr. Green. [Continued.
21165. I presume that if you anticipate a fall in prices or a slackening
demand, yon curtail your production ; you do not go on increasing your stock ;
you do not give out so much work ?
No.
21 i66. And other manufacturers would naturally act in the same way?
Yes.
21167. And in such cases the men would probably be working for these
fog’gers and disposing of their goods at a lower rate ; therefore I should be
correct in saying that the action of manufacturers, yourself and others, in
restricting your own stock, not adding to it, would not have any effect upon the
stock in the market generally, because the foggers would take your place, as it
were. If you anticipated a falling off in the demand you could not, by your
own action, limit the quantity ; the supply ?
No, we could not stop the supply of chains. We should prefer, fur instance,
with our workpeople when we had no work for them, that they should stand on
one side for a week or two and not work at all ; it would be better for them if
they could do that.
21168. And better for you too ?
And it would be better for us, too ; and then, as we got orders in, we should
put them on to the work, and they would always keep wdiat we call their full
list price ; but some of them always will go on making chains, and on
Saturday, or even before, they will go to the-e men and sell the chain, if not at
the price that is understood to be the list jirice, at what they can get ; and the
risk of that kind of thing makes it impossible for us to put in a large stock of
chains when prices are liigh ; if we did so we should soon lose a great deal
more than any profit that we could make in the sale of the chain.
21 169. Then I may take it from vou that, on the whole, you think that both
miisters and men would be better off without these foggers ?
Yes ; I think the trade would be better if they were not there to put the
chains into stock when there is really no demand for them.
21170. [ tliink you told me yesterday that, in your opinion, if female labour
was excluded altogether, it would have an appreciable effect in raising the price
upon the consumer ; do you think that if the female labour was limited to the
classes of work which have been mentioned before the Committee that would
have any appreciable effect r
I do not, because the females already only make those sizes that have been
referred to ; they do not make larger sizes.
21171. We have had it in evidence that they made, sizes much larger than
they ought to make ?
That is only an exceptional case ; I think you will find that the manufactureis
will all tell you so.
21172. Then you would see no objection if women and children were for-
bidden by law to work above a certain size of iron ?
I see no objection to it other than this (if I may give my opinion) that I do
not think it ought to be done.
21173. You think it is a kind of grandmotherly legislation, in fact ?
I do, indeed.
21 174. But you do not think it would be prejudicial to the trade?
It would have no appreciable effect whatever; it would affect here and there
a woman, say, a widow, who w'as strong enough, and whose needs drove her,
to get a little more money, to make a higher sized chain than was usual.
21175. We have had it stated that operatives will occasionally take iron out
from the manufacturer and sell this iron to the fogger ; have such cases ever
come under your notice ?
(ll.f
mm3
No.
2/8
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
15f/i March 1880.]
Mr. Green.
[ Continued.
No. I have been now manager of onr business for 15 or 16 years, and we
liave never had a ease where we have found it necessary to prosecute, and I do
not recollect a case where we ever bean! of any reason why we should think of
doing ani thing of the sort.
21 1 76. In fact, \ou do not think it is ever done ?
I think it is possible tliat it may be done. For instance, a workman may
make 18 lbs. of chain, and go to some of these large shopmen and sell it ?
21177. 1 am iiot speaking of selling the chain, but of selling the iron r
lie may sell the iron also; but 1 do not know how Mr. Homer cm know
that that iron does not belong to the man who sold the chain.
21178. I am only asking you whether such a case has ever come under your
knowledge?
No ; it is very exceptional if anything of the sort is done.
21179. Have the masters and men in the chain or nail trade ever endeavoured
to come to some mutual agreement nut to deal with these foggers ; to do with-
out them, in fact ?
No, we never thought of such a thing.
21 iSo. Your business is one of the largest in the district, is it not '?
Yes.
21181. I mean the figures that you have given us of tlie number of people
you employ would be quite as large or larger than those of any other manu-
facturer ?
JMuch larger than any of the ('thers in the nail trade, undoubtedly ; and I
think, also, in small chains.
21182. Then I take it from you, generally, that you think the trade is in a
fairly sa'.isfactory condition?
At the present time.
21 1 83. \Vhen you say “ at the present time,” do you mean because the price
is a little better than it used to be ?
The demand has been better since the improvement in the iion trade in the
latter eml of last year, October; and, somehow, tiie chain-trade is better also, and
that has enabled us to give the workpeople the higher list, or rather has (uiabled
them to get a higher price from us. We have had to look alter them. When
they look after us for work then their wages are going down.
21184. Pi'cvious to this rise do you consider t'nat the trade was in an unsatis-
factory condition ;■
Yes.
21 585. As to wages, and so on ?
Yes.
21186. And the profits of both cajutal and labour?
"i’es.
21187. Do you require any money deposit from men who take out iron
from you ?
Not in chains, or in nails ; but with the nail-rnakers, for many years past, it
has got to be a custom that they should work upon their own stocks ; that is,
if the nailer comes 10 our jjlaee he will be put on our books as a worker for
us ; the old custom used to be that w-e should entrust to him the iron, but now
they i re expected to work upon their own stock ; and they buy a bundle of
iron; if it is a workman that w'e Avant, and we believe that he or she will be
honci^t with the iron, we should sell to them a bundle of iron at about the cost
price and debit them with tlie money, credit them with the iron, when they
brought the nails in ; and they Avould pay for a bundle ot iron, say 6 //. a Aveek,
till they have got a bundle to their own credit, then they stand upon our books
as workpeople who are thoroughly independent of us, because they Avork tlieir
ovA’n
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
279
\5th March 1889.] Mr. Gueen. \_Continued.
own iron, and when they bring their nails in on a Saturday, we deliver
iron back again t j them, or iron in place of that whit h they have worked
in, so that the next week they can go and work for another manufacturer if they
choose.
21188. They buy their iron from you ?
Or li’om anyone else ; we do not interfere in that matter.
21189. You would not want to see the iron beforehand, to see the quality ?
Ko, not for ordinary nail rods ; in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred the
common nail rods are of the same quality.
21190. Lord M 011k swell We have heard that the dog-chain is sold at the
retail price of I 5. 3 cL, the cost of it being only 2 d. for the material and i d. for
the work ; do you think that that is so ?
It is possible that dog-chain of some of the smaller sizes may be made, or may
have been made for three farthings, but it is a very low price ; I do not think
that that is being done now.
21191. Would such a chain sell for Is. 3 ?
They would be little fancy articles; they would be nicely tinned, at a cost of
1 6?. or 1| d., and then when the shopkeeper gets a nice looking article I can
understand a lady paying Is. 3 ^/. for it.
21192. You do not know of your owm personal knowledge that it sells for
that price ?
I do not.
21193. We have heard that there is more women labour than there used to
be ; do you think that is so ?
Thau there was perliaps 40 years ago, yes, certainly ; and it arises from the
fact that there has been a greater demand for chains which the w omen can
make.
21194. You do not think it arises from the lowering of wages, so that
women must work in order that the family may earn enough to live ?
No, it is simply because there are cow-ties, as 1 said before, and other kinds
of chain, the demand for wdiich has made its way into our district, and it has
been found that girls and women can make the links, and the men put them
together into the cow-tie, or otherwise ; and the demand has so increased that
it finds work for more women.
2ii()5. Then, in your oi)inion, the lowering of wages since you lost the
trade with America has nothing to do with the increased emjdoyment of
women ?
No, I should think not.
21196. W^e have heard about certain tricks that the men say they suffer from;
you have been asked with regard to false weiglits ; we have also been lold that
it is a common practice to give the men good iron instead of bad ; that is to say,
that the logger or the master will tell the man that he is e.xpected to make up
the ordinary ciiain out of this iron, but. they give him the hard iron required
for the superior chain, and only pay him the price of an ordinary chain ; do
you know whether that is done ?
I never heard of any such thing ; 1 think they must be referring to that wire
iron which I was sjieaking about yesterday.
21197. The evidence is that that takes place in the bigger class of chains,
half-inch chains ?
I have never heard of anything of the kind. 1 cannot conceive it possible
that a manufacturer wmuld deliver common iron, and expect a superior chain
to he made out of it.
21 198. The complaint is the other way ; that he deli vers out the harder iron,
and expects the men to make it up at the usual price for which they do inferior
iron?
(11.)
M M 4
No
280
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
loth Jllarch 1889.] Mr. Gueen. ^Continued.
No doubt that is done, and that is simply the commencement of a general
reduction. Some of tliese large shopmen, lor instance, if there is an under-
stood list, as there is now, if they found they had more workmen than they
could employ would not propose to the first person to reduce his wages, but
they may deliver to that workman the best iron at a common iron price, and
tell the workmen he must make the chain good.
2T 199. That is one way of breaking dowm the list ?
Yes, that is one way of breaking down the list ; even the large shopmen would
not think of attempting that when there was plenty of demand for the men.
21200, Sometimes we have been told iron would be delivered out too bad
to W(Jtk with; the links sometimes give way, or it is impossible to wmrk them
properly owing to the iron being too bad ; do you think that is a common
practice r
Not at all. I daresay there are cases; I have known cases many years ago
where round iron delivered to be made into chains would crack in tlie turning;
but the one who gave the iron out would not think of doing it if he knew it ;
and if the workman bi'ought the iron back the employer would be very glad to
take the iron from him and give him better,
21201. Supposing the iron was bad in parts, and the man delivered less
chain to the master than the master expected, and some of the links were
broken, do you mean that in tliat case he would not have to bear the loss ?
The woikman would bear the loss if he went on working the iron and did
not make his yield because some of the iron turned out bad ; if he had to
throw a lot of the links on one side more than usual ; but if he brought the
iron back when he found that it was bad, then any reasonable employer would
compensate him for his loss of time and give him another bundle of iron to
work up.
21202. But there might be an unreasonable employer who would not take
the same view of the case ?
There may be exceptions.
2 1 203. Then as to false size of iron ; we are told that another way of breaking
down the list is to give a man a smaller size of iron than he is supposed to be
working on r
Yes ; 1 believe that that is done by some of these people. If, at the week’s
end, they find that they have not sufficient work for all those who come to work
for them, I believe they do say to a workman “ Here is a bundle, you can take
it if you like and work it up for 10 6 f/.,” say it is No. 6, they would offer
them the price of No. 5, I am bound to believe that that is done sometimes,
because I hear complaints about it, but I do not know anything of the facts,
21204. You say you give instructions to your warehousemen that nothing-
should be brought below a certain price ; are those common instructions
for the masters to give ; do the masters usually give those instructions ?
I think all the respectable masters ; when we know that we are to pay
this list, we all stand by each otlier ; at least the first-class masters all go on
paying it.
21205. I suppose the masters feel then that it would be rather a shabby
thing to be the first to begin to break down a list ?
Undoubtedly.
21206. That is the feeling among tlie best class of masters r
That is the rule with the best class of masters ; that is the rule we have gone
by for years back.
21207. Lord Sandhurst.'] You have an intimate knowledge ofCradley Heath,
I suppose ?
Yes
21208. Should you say, or should you not say, that the condition of the
working people there, the operatives, is extremely deplorable ?
No, I should not.
21209. Then
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
281
l.'iM March 1889.]
Mr. Green.
[ Continued.
2 1 209. I’hen as regards their houses, their dwellings ?
Some of the dwellings are very bad ; there is one place there called Tibbetts’
Garden ; the houses were built before we had a local board, and every man
built just where he liked; it is impossible to make a street among them, and
those houses and their surroundings are very bad indeed.
21210. I suppose you know what a sanitary inspector is?
Yes.
21211. Do you ever see him about there ?
I seldom am at Tibbetts’ Garden, but I do not think the inspector would take
any steps to do anything unless some one made a complaint.
21212. Should you be surprised to know that it has been given in evidence
by more than one witness that they have never heard of such a person as the
sanitary inspector, or seen him ?
I can understand that some of the workpeople may say that ; they would
not know what was meant by it.
21213. I think it was explained to them ?
They may not have heard of anything of the kind ; but now we have a
local board, and I have heard that Mr. Bassano, who is the chairman of that
board, is to come and give his evidence, I believe that the board is striving
earnestly to do its duty.
21214. You say that it is striving to do its duty r
I think so ; there has been a wonderful revolution in the parish in the last 25
years, since we have had a local board ; we were in a bad condition before, but
this Tibbetts’ Garden is and always has been a puzzler.
2121.5. Is it because of the formation of the ground, that it is difficult to
drain ?
If the houses are built in a straight line, and there is a street between the
houses, then you can have the street channelled and the channels paved, and
raise the street in the centre, and all rain, &c., will drain off; but in Tibbetts’ Garden
one house is built here and another there, and all is higgledy-piggledy about
the place, so that I know it is very difficult to decide what shall be done
to drain all these nuisances away from each house. It ought to be done un-
doubtedly, but I suppose being so difficult the local board has put it off till
they have put all the other places and streets in good order.
21216. What is the rateable value of the local board districts ?
I believe it is about 100,000 1 .
21217. Chairman.'] Do you know whether subsidences of the surface make it
difficult to drain these places ?
Not in Tibbetts’ Garden ; there has been subsidence there lately which has
very likely created a difficulty, but that was only about 18 months ago, so that
the nuisance was there before that ; I daresay it is aggravated by that.
21218. And the sanitary condition you say is much better than it was 25
years ago ?
A great revolution has taken place in that respect.
21219. Has the condition of the people improved since then r
Yes, undoubtedly.
21220. And you would say that generally speaking their condition is fairly
good ?
Yes, I do not know anything wrong with them. Some of them are badly
off.
21221. You think that an industrious man can make a good living ?
Undoubtedly.
21222. And in your opinion are the working people of the district fairly in-
dustrious and sober and thrifty, and so on ?
Yes.
(11.) Nn
21223. Duke
282
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\5th March 1889.] Mr. Green. \^Continued.
■J1223. Duke of Norfolk.'l I suppose you would say that if their condition is
not a deplorable one they keep out of a deplorable condition by having to work
very long hours at very hard work r
I consider that they work about as many hours as the people do all round the
Black Country. I think the men and women in the chain trade, as prices are
now, are in a fairly good condition ; in the *nail trade their wages are low and
always have been low, but they keep themselves very fairly before the world,
and pay their way and rear their children well.
21224. But you are measuring their scale of well-being by the scale of
well-being throughout the Black Country?
Yes.
21225. Not throughout the country?
Throughout the Black Country, as far as I know it.
21226. Lord Monkswell.'] I understand you to say that the real reason why
the foggers ol)tain business is because workmen prefer to work for them at under
prices, rather than to remain idle ?
Yes.
21227. Chairman,^ Do you know whether the working people generally
belong to unions or societies of any kinds ?
Some of the chainmakers do ; the men, I believe at the present time, are
pretty well in union, and they pay their Qd.a, week ; but in the case of the women
and the young persons it would be very difficult to get any payment from
them.
21228. We have had it in evidence that the 3 a week subscription is more
than a great number of them can pay?
It is more than they care to pay, because tliey are not sure they shall ever
get any benefit from it if they do pay.
21229. Have you ever heard of the Cradley chain being sold as Walsall
chain ?
No, we should not think of selling our chain as Walsall chain.
21230. I was not speaking of you ; I was asking whether you had ever heard
of its being done ?
No. But may I mention with respect to Walsall, that at Walsall the people
make the buckles and all kinds of odd iron work connected with saddlery work,
and a few chain makers have settled down there, and they extend their shops,
until they make little factories ; but the quantity of chains made there, compared
with what is made in our own district, is very small indeed ; and they have no
female labour there in the chain trade, because the females can do better in the
harness trade ; they go to the harness factories there, and work under, I believe,
about the same conditions as our chain makers, and I have never understood that
they get much more money ; 1 should think they get a little more.
21231. What was suggested to the Committee was, that these chains were all
made in factories by men at Walsall ; that they are better than the similar
chains made by women in Cradley Heath, but that the work is sent to Cradley
to be made, and is then sold as Walsall chain ; that, I think you say, is not the
case ?
Well, I think, it is very likely that some of the chain buyers at Walsall may
buy some chains from chain makers on our side, and send it out as their own ;
but we know nothing about it.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
283
\5th March 1889.
Mr. J. W. HIGGS WALKER, is called in; and, having been sworn ;
is Examined, as follows :
21232. Chairman^] Are you a member of the firm of J. G. U alker &
Sons ?
Yes.
21233. Where is their place of business ?
At Netherton, Dudley ; the business address is Derby Hand, Dudley.
21234. Have you a factory there ?
Yes.
21235. What do you make principally ?
We make horse shoes, chains and nails, horse nails and rivets. I do not mean
that we make those rivets in our factory ; we make horse shoes and chains in
our factory.
21236. How many hands do you employ ?
We have about 15 or 16 chain hearths, and then we have three sets of horse-
shoe makers.
21237. How many hands would that represent ?
It represents tlie turner and the striker, two to each set.
21238. And do you make the horse nails yourselves ?
The horse nails are generally carried on in the domestic workshops ; that is
entirely a domestic workshop trade.
21 239. You buy them ?
Yes.
21240. You buy chain also I suppose from the domestic workshops r
Ye.s.
21241 . And how do you dispose of your goods ?
We sell them both to the merchant for export, and also to the ironmongers
in the country.
21242. Through your own travellers ?
Yes.
21243. Do you sell them to the wholesale trade and the letail trade ?
No, no retail trade. When 1 say no retail trade I mean comparatively no
retail trade; we do not do anything except with the wholesale houses.
21244. Do you import any nails from abroad ?
Yes.
21245. What kind ?
We import horse nails.
21246. Machine made?
Yes, machine made.
21247. Where do they come from ?
They come from Norway.
21248. How long have you been importing them ?
Wt* have been importing them I think for about four years now.
21249. I going to ask you a question which is almost unnecessary,
whether you can get them cheaper from there than you can here ?
Well, we cannot get that class of nail made here at all.
2 1 250. Do you mean that we do not make any machine-made horse nails in
England ?
Not of that class.
( 11 .)
N N 2
21251. What
284
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\^th March 1889. J Mr. Higgs Walker. \_Continued.
21251. What is the reason of that ?
Because I do not think there would be any possible chance of producing them
at the same price as they make them abroad. Before we commenced importing
these horse nails we went rather closely into the matter to see whether there
was no possible chance of manufacturing them at that time in this country ; and
I went abroad to the foreign works, and found out about their cost ; and we
came to the conclusion that there was notliing to encourage us, that it would
be foolish to attempt to expend money in laying down machinery here.
21252. Do you buy any horse nails in the district ?
Yes.
21253. Wrought nails ?
Yes, the hand made.
21254. Are they superior or inferior to the machine made in your opinion ?
They are made out of precisely the same quality of iron ; probably the hand-
made nail gets better welding than the machine made ; but on the whole their
average quality is very nearly the same.
21255. Certain qualities of nails are made by machinery in this country
Yes, of the wrought nails ; rose nails and steel cut nails, and so on.
21256. Has the introduction of these important machine-made nails reduced
the price of the wrought nails r
Yes, very considerably.
21257. And brought down the price of labour also, I presume ?
^ es ; 1 would like, if I may, to give you an instance of that.
21258. Certainly?
The present price we are paying for the twelve pound horse nail, which is
the ruling size, is ’2 s. 3 d. per thousand; in 1880 we were paying 3 5. per
thousand ; the highest price that was paid at all was in 1875 , and then it was
4 5 . 3 d. a thousand. In 1880 we employed over 350 men, probably nearer
400 , making horse nails ; now we employ about 70 to 80 .
21259. you give us their relative rates of wages too ?
Yes.
21260. Have you got it in a form in which it could be put in ?
No, these are merely rough notes for my guidance. Taking the average
earnings lor the last week, our horse nail makers average 15 5. 9 d. (these are
of course horse nails entirely that I am referring to now). Of course more
money can be got by that work ; for instance, taking three sizes of nails, of
course some of the men who make the larger class of nails can get more money
than that considerably ; for instance, taking the case of a man making sixteens
(that is about the largest size made) for the week ending February 9 th, I find
he got 26 5. 4 d. ; for the week ending 23 rd February, 25 s. 7 d. ; and for the
week ending the 2nd March he got 24 s. 10 if. That is really very fairly hard
work to get that.
21261. May I take it that it would be a skilful man working hard ?
It would be a skilful man.
21262. That is the best paid quality of nails ?
Those are the best paid quality of nails.
21263. Aud 15 5. 9 d. you say is the average ?
Yes ; that is rather a low average ; for instance, I see taking 8 lb. nails, one
man making 8 lb. nails only made 14 s. 4 d. for the week ending 9 tli March ;
the week before, ending the 2nd March, he made 17s. lid., and the week
ending the 16 th February he made 17 -y. Sd. ; so that 15 s. 9 ^/. is what you may
call a low average.
21264. How would that compare with former periods. You have mentioned
the price of the nails at different periods ; could you give the Committee the
average earnings of the workers during the same periods?
Yes ; I could give you ivliat they would get.
21265. During
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
285
I5th March 1889.] Mr. liiGGS Walker.
[ Continued.
2 1 265 . During the same years ?
I have not any figures representing that ; for instance, a man heie making
12 lb. nails, for the week ending the 17th February, at the present rate of
wages, got 20 5. 9 c?. ; if he were paid the same price as they were having in
18/5, when they were getting 4 s. 3 d. per thousand, lie would have made about
38 s. for the same amount of work.
21266. May I take it from you that their earnings would increase in pro-
portion to the increased price of the article r
Yes, although I must say that at that date, as a rule, when they were getting-
such big wages the men did not work anything like the time they work at
present ; in fact, at that particular time there was rather a difficulty in getting
men to work long enough to make the nails that we wanted.
21267. As to these persons whom you say average about 15.9. 9 d., that is all
male labour ?
That is all male labour.
21268. A man working by himself?
A man working by himself.
21269. That does not include paying anything to a blower?
No, he would do that all himself.
21270. What would be the deductions you would make?
He would have to pay for his fuel from that, of course ; but, as a rule, two
men would work to a fire, and I suppose it would not amount to more than
perhaps ] s. for him in the course of the week.
21271. Then there would be the tools, and the rent of the shop ?
Yes ; the shops are usually let with the houses.
21272. Do they all work in their own shops?
Yes, most of them.
21273. Just the man alone?
Just the man alone, with perhaps his son or his two sons.
21274. \Vhat has become of these men who formerly were making these
horse nails ?
I do not know what has become of the greater proportion of them ; I know
that a considerable number of them have gone into the chain trade.
21275. You think that there has been a considerable migration from the nail
trade into the chain trade ?
Yes.
21276. What is the price list you are paying upon now ?
The price list is called the 2 5. 3 d. list, that is taking 2 5. 3 d. for 12 lb.
nails as the standard size.
21277. When was that settled?
I am not sure, but 1 believe they have been paid since the latter end ot
November ; previous to that they were getting 2 5. a thousand.
21278. The list price was settled last December ?
Yes, it was settled towards the latter end of Novemiier. {Vide Appendix Flj.
21279. ^ud you are paying the full price on the list ?
Yes. ‘
21280. Is it not the custom generally for the list to last a pretty considerable
time, but for the prices to be reduced by a certain percentage ?
I do not think we would have any difficulty in buying nails at the 2 5. list ;
but 1 do not consider that under the present list the men can do sufficient
justice to the work, and get a living by it. It is nut the custom to reduce prices
paid for making horse-nails by certain percentages from a standing list the
prices depend upon the amount paid for making 12 lb. nails; when we are
paying 2 5. 3 d. it is called the 2 s. 3 d. list, when we pay 2 5. 6 d. the 2 s. 6 d.
list, and so on. Other sizes being regulated in proportion.
21281. Can you give the Committee any idea of the wages earned in other
branches of your business, other kinds of nails and chains ?
(11.) NN3 Yes,
286
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\5th March ISSQ.'] Mr. Higgs Walker. {^Continued.
Yes, taking an average (or the week ending the 9th March of what we call
the common nails, the nails made by women, 1 found that they would average
4 s. 8 c/. for that week.
21282. Subject to the usual deductions?
1 do not know what deductions there would be. They would have, of course,
to j)ay for their firing. That also, 1 think, is a low average; for instance, I
found that one girl of about 18 who was making an inch and a-half nail gets
from bs. to 6 s. a week ; that is net; she works from about seven o'clock to
seven with the usual intervals for meals. Another woman I found was getting
5s. 4 d. per week, and another was getting trom 7 s. 6 d. to 8s. per week; that
is taking some of the individual instances.
21283. 'ihat would be women?
That would be women.
21284. tliat kind of work exclusively in the hands of women ?
That kind of work is exclusively in the hands of women.
21205. Then in the chain shops?
In our own chain shop, our average for the three weeks ending the 23rd
February, the 2nd March, and the 9th March, was 24 s. 1 d.
2128b. That is men ?
That was for men. The average earnings for lads at the same time was
12 s. 8 c/. Those prices would be, for the lads, net ; the men of course would
have to deduct for iheii- blowers.
21 287. \\ onld blowers be the only deduction ?
Blowers would be the only deduction.
21288. Then, in the domestic workshops, do you know what their earnings
would be '
No, 1 cannot get at that so well ; but I notice the price Mr. Green gave,
taking No. 1 chain, which he averages at a little over 2 cwt., I think I reckon
a fair week’s work for a woman would be about 2 cwt., and reckoning the
lowest list, the 3s. 6 c/. list, thes should get about 9s. 6 d. net; reckoning the
4 s. list, w'hich is the lowest list we pay, tliey should get about 11s. 8 d. net.
21289-90. Allowing for all deductions?
That is allowing for all deductions. Of course the amount of work done by
different women varies very considerably.
21291. Do you know with how many of these people you deal ; how many of
them work for you ?
No, I could not say that, because very irequently the father, who brings the
work in, has perhaps a daughter or two daughters, or three sometimes, work-
ing in the same shop with him, and therefore I could not answer the question.
2 1 292. Do you generally employ the same people ?
Yes.
21293. Do you buy from the large shopmen, the “ foggers,” as they have
been called ?
Very rarely ; occasionally.
21294. When you have orders that you cannot fulfil; or why do you ever
buy from them ?
Well, we buy from them for the same reason as stated by Mr. Green, when
it happens to be convenient to get some sizes from them to make up.
21295. But you prefer to deal with the more domestic shops ?
Yes ; v^e prefei 10 deal with them. We had three or four extra hearths put
into our shop this > ear, and we shall still further try to increase them; we
prefer infinitely to do it in our own shop.
21296. Why do yem not like dealing with the fogger r
We do not consider the class of work so good ; and we can exercise super-
vision and sec that thev are doing justice to the work in our own shop.
21297. You
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
287
\ 5th March ISSd.'] Mr. Higgs Walker. • \_Continued.
21297. You prefer to do so as much as you can in your own shop :
Yes.
21298. Would you approve then of the factory system as opposed to the
whole system of family and domestic worksliops r
Personally, yes.
21299. You think you would get the work better done?
Yes ; although I do not think that it would be practicable' to do away with
the domestic workshops.
21300. Why not ^
For instance, the women would always or generally have to work in domestic
workshops.
21301. Do you mean that they would be married, and could not go to the
factory ?
Yes, I do not think they would go ; in fact, we have had a difficulty in
getting meii to work in the factory at all.
21302. What effect do you suppose it would have upon the trade if tlie women
did not work ?
If the women did not work at all do you mean ?
21303. Yes?
I do not know. The men would not work at some of the prices that women
do ; it would not be possible to do away with female labour.
21304. Why not?
Men could not get a living at it unless the wages were raised to such propor-
tions as would probably drive the trade away.
21305. You mean in some of the classes of goods men’s wages would have
to be so high that you would lose the trade altogether ?
Probably.
213(^6. The cost of the labour vvould be out of all proportion to the value of
the article ?
Yes.
21307. Of course that argument would not apply to the limiting of female
labour to certain sizes ?
No.
21308. Do you see any objection to that ?
No ; I think it would be a good thing.
21309. Do you think that women and children do work that is physically
injurious to them, owing to its being excessively hard ?
I do not know that I have had any personal knowledge of that.
21310. Do you go into these family workshops and domestic workshops that
you deal with ?
Occasionally.
21311. It is not part of your business
It is not part of our business.
21312. All you have to do is to see that the man brings the goods to you,
and takes more iron out ?
Yes : of course I have been very frequently into a great many of them.
21313. Do you know anything about chain being sold as rested when it is
not tested ?
I believe there is a great deal of chain sold as tested which is untested.
21314. Certified to be tested?
Yes. Of course the only thing that you can tell by is the price that it is
sold at.
(11.) nn 4 2131 ^ What
288
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\f)th March 1889.] Mr. Higgs Walker. \_Continued.
21315. What kind of a certificate do you give with the chain ; what is it ; I
have never seen one ; you do not stamp anything on the chain itself ?
The chain is stamped with the number that is on the certificate.
•21316. Stamped with the weight that it will bear or what?
Stamped with a number which will correspond with the number on the
certificate.
21317. And you say that chain is so stamped which has not been tested
at all ?
I say that I believe it is.
21318. Is that confined to the export trade ?
Yes ; I do not think it would affect the country trade.
21319. The merchant wotdd be deceived in that case V
VVell, the buyer abroad would be deceived.
21320. Do you think the merchants are aware of the fact?
1 cannot say that they are aware of the fact.
21321. Does not it have a very injurious effect upon manufacturers who do
test their chains properly ?
It makes a good part of the export trade where they want a tested chain pro-
hibitory to them ; it prohibits them altogether from doing it.
21322. In your opinion, would you lose the export trade altogether, if the
chain was really tested, and the price of the article raised accordingly ?
No ; I mean to say that it debars those people from doing any export trade
in that class of chain who are not willing to send out certificates to say that it
is proved chain when it is not proved.
21323. But what I mean is this; I presume this chain, untested chain, is sold
cheaper than it would he if it were really tested ?
Oh, yes.
21324. The question I asked you was whether you would lose the export
trade altogether if the chain was really tested and the price raised ?
No..
21325. You think not; that the export trade is not subject to such keen
competition ?
No.
21326. Is there anything you would like to say on the subject of the sanita-
tion, or the want of sanitation ?
No ; I believe, in some instances, the sanitation may be bad, but taking it as
a rule, I do not think the workshops are unhealthy.
21327. Have you heard the evidence that has been given about the various
w^ays in which the workmen are defrauded by improper sizes of iron, and by
false weights, and by not making proper allowance for the weight of the bag,
and so on ?
I have heard some of it.
21328. Have you anything you wish to say on that point ?
No.
2132Q. Do you know whether it is a fact that the coiled iron is often given
out when the operatives have to straighten it at their own expense?
I have no doubt it is the case.
21330. And also that the iron is not fairly round occasionally ?
Yes, occasionally ; but I should think that that was a very rare case.
21331. And also we have been told that they are given a superior kind of
iron, and only paid for the inferior article ; is that likely to happen ?
I do not know ; I think it probably might occur ; there is room for it to
occur. One of these men who go in for cutting prices up very severely would
probably try to put out the better class of iron, and get it worked up at a lower
rate.
•21332. Have
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM,
289
\5ih March 1889.] Mr, Higgs Walker,
[Continued.
21332, Have you any opinion about the advantages or disadvantages of the
foggers to masters and men ?
1 think that they are of more advantage probably to the men to a certain
extent than to the master, though I do not know that they can be considered
an advantage; it is an advantage to the men when the trade is quiet, and the
men want to take their small quantities of nails in, that they can get them
taken by the fogger,
21333, But none to the masters?
It is an advantage to the masters when they want to buy small quantities ;
there is such an enormous number of different kinds of nails that no one pre-
tends to keep them all in stock ; we do not at all events,
21334, The fogger keeps a stock of which you can occasionally avail your-
selves ?
Occasionally avail ourselves,
21335, He gets his stock much cheaper than you do yours ?
He would,
21336, And does he sell it to you cheaper ?
No,
21337, Do you never buy from the foggers cheaper ?
No ; we should always pay the list price to them,
21338, Lord Thring.'] Do you know whether giving those false certificates as
to testing is forbidden in any Act of Parliament ?
I do not know,
21339, know whether it comes under the Trades Marks Act?
I do not know,
21340, You never heard of a prosecution in such a case ?
No,
21341, Lord Sandhurst.] Do you agree with the last witness in considering
that the condition of the people at Cradley Heath is not so deplorable as it used
to be r
I consider it is better than it used to be eighteen months ago,
21342. Do you consider it an improving one ?
I cannot say that I consider it an improving one with regard to nails; it may
be with regard to chains.
21343. 1 am speaking more of the general condition of the people ?
I do not know ; as I say, the general condition of the people in the chain
trade is considerably better than it has been for some time.
21344. You have lived at Cradley yourself?
Near to it, within half a mile.
21345. Then I presume you are intimately acquainted with the district ?
Yes.
21346. Lord Thring.] One more question about the testing; I understand
this, that the manufacturer tests his own chain ?
Yes.
21347. Would you consider it an advantage to have some testing office such
as they have for silver and gold, a Government Office or a quasi Government
Office, where they should be tested by an extrinsic power ; in other words, that
instead of testing yourselves you should send them to a Government Test Office
and have them tested in the same way as my watch is, supposing it has a gold
or silver mark on it ?
In the cable trade, for instance, for those who choose to have it tested, there
is Lloyds’ Proving House.
(11.) 00 21348. Would
290
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\5th March 1889.] Mr. Higgs Walker. ^ [^Continued.
21348. Would you think it an advantage that there should be a proving
house or test house established ?
I think it would be an advantage.
21349. Dnder the superintendenee of the Board of Trade, say ?
That is to say if the cost of testing were fixed at a low rate.
21350. But so that the test might have the Government endorsement so to
speak, and be a certain test ?
Quite so ; I think it would be of considerable advantage.
21351. Chairman^ Is there not a public testing machine in the district
under the Board of Trade ?
Yes, that is Lloyds’ Proving House.
21352. That would be for cable chains?
For cables.
21353. Lord Thring.^ Then you would think it right or advantageous, that
that should be extended to other sorts of chains which the manufacturer might
wish tested ?
Yes, providing that the cost of testing was low.
21354. Chairman.'] Is not the cost of the machine so much as practically to
make it difficult for the smaller chain makers to provide themselves with a
testing machine ?
The cost of the machines varies, I suppose, from 100 1 . to 150 /. perhaps.
21355. That would practically put it out of the power of an owner of a small
shop making chains to have such a machine?
1 think so.
21356. Do you think that that is one of the reasons why chain is not
tested ?
No.
21357. Lord Thring.] What cost would these small chains bear in testing ;
supposing you were going to have them tested, what would you say they ought
to be tested for ?
The price sliould fall something under Qd. per cwt.
21358. And if that were established you think that fair manufacturers would
avail themselves of it ?
Certainly, I should think so.
21359. Lord Monhsivell.]-Whhire where your previous witnesses came from. These
small shoe hobs {pointing to some) are women’s v\ork again, and men cannot
make these goods ; they are too small for them ; it requires a very light touch to
make some of the classes ; a few men can get down to it, but as a rule the
women make these very small ones better. The shapes vary so much that we
do not know from season to season what the boot manufacturers will take.
These
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM,
309
\5th March 1889.] Mr. Parry. \^Cuntinuzd.
These {pointing) are shoe bills ; they are only made in our district, not in the
Staffordshire district. This work of siioe nails is not a dyind. or 2 i'. ; and it is rather hard
if they are not allowed to work in that way. And there- is not much fear of
their overdoing themselves. With regard to what has been said by some manu-
facturers and others about doing away with women labour in the trade, as
far as the Bromsgrove trade goes it would simply annihilate the trade if it were
attempted. The women are required for cei tain classes of work, and we could
not possibly do without them ; it is contrary to the general order of things
now ; and would make it so much more difficult for us to compete
with machine and cast nails if women labour were done away with. In all
manufactures women are being employed more and more for small manufactures,
and if we were entirely dependent on the men we could not possibly sell wrought
against the machine and cast nails ; so that it would annihilate the trade.
(II.)
21608. Are
Q Q 4
312
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\5th JSrldTcii 1889.] ]VIr. Parry. ^CoTitinucd.
21608. Are all these nails which you have shown us in competition with the
cast nails ?
Yes.
21609. All of them ; even these very fine ones ?
No; those are in competition with the machine-made ones; it is only the hobs
that are made in cast.
21610. That would be with machine-made nails or cast nails made in this
country ?
Yes, in this countrv.
21611. There is no foreign competition ?
No foreign competition in this class of work,
21612. If these shops were under the Factory Act, it would not prevent the
men working up to 10 o’clock at night, would it?
No, not the men.
21613. It would not interfere with these men, therefore, who work on
allotments ?
No.
21614, It would only affect the women who are not working on them ?
Yes ; but very often a woman is able to do a little light work at night, when
she is not able to do it in the middle of the day, as it is rather a hot trade for
them, and, as a rule, they do not overwork themselves; that is not the tendency;
but the depression in our district is not so great as in the Staffordshire disrrict.
I may remark that tbe manufacturers in our district cannot help themselves,
because other manufacturers, out of the district, want a portion of the trade,
and they employ tliese loggers to buy for them. '1 hose {pointing) are the
cast nails that are sold against tlie wrought; the shape is quite equal, but
you see there is a softness about them and a slipperiness ; they are dangerous
to walk upon, and also they will not adhere to the leather. As to shape, they
can get it perfect almost. .
21615. Earl of Derhg.'] I suppose it is only a question of time that this hand
work will be superseded by machinery, is it not ■
Well, 1 do not think so at present ; they have been trying for the last 50
years to bring out a machine hob, and they have never done so yet ; the nearest
thing is the cast hob which was made 20 years ago, and the cast hob has not
annihilated us yet. It is only a question of keeping the prices down. Un-
doubtedly the wrought trade is getting less and less in comparison with the
machine trade, but the bulk is still increasing, because the demand is increas-
ing, and the population is increasing, and 1 do not think that there is any pro-
bability for the next 50 years of the wrought hob trade in the Bromsgrove
district dying out.
21616. The change may be a long wdiile in coming, but the general course
of business is the substitution of machinery for hand labour, is it not ?
Yes, that is the idea, but at present they ha\ e not been able to do it.
21617. Chairman.^ But in your opinion it is impossible to make as good an
article by any machinery that we have at present :
Impossible, That which I have just shown you is the very best article that
men can make, and this [pointing) falls out of the boots, and is slippery to
walk upon, and the wrought are worth sixpence per pair more.
21618. Uo you mean that if you could offer the wrought nails at the same
price as the cast the Government would not take them from you ?
I believe if we could offer them at the same price we are not open to do so,
because the standard pattern are cast, and they have gone into these cast, but
I have no doubt that if we had influence to bring the matter before some of the
officials we might get the Government to entertain it supposing the cost was
the same, but the cost is not the same, though the difference in the manu-
factured
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
313
\5th March 1889.] Mr. Parry. \^Continucd.
factored boot is very little considering ; and it would be far cheaper for the
Government to use wrought nails than cast as at present ; and it would
also help our trade because the Government pattern is always the same ; and
if we could get a portion of the Government orders we should always be able in
the winter to stock this pattern for the Government, and it would enable us
to employ the whole of the hands in the trade in the winter time without
letting them go to the fogger. If the Government could see their way to take
up wrought in place of cast it would assist us to annihilate the fogger more than
anything else, because we should be able to employ the hands in the winter
time.
21619. Lord Thring.'l You mentioned that the wrought would cost 3 c?. more
in a pair of hoots ; supposing you had a large contract such as you say, would
it still be 3 c?. a pair ?
It would make a little difference, because if tl)e Government sent out contracts
we should quote for them and we should make our own arrangements, but still
there would always be a margin, perhaps 2 d. or ‘l\d. more.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next,
Twelve o’clock.
( 314 )
>
1
( 315 )
Die Martis^ 19 "^ Martii^ ] 889 .
LORDS
Lord Archbishop of Canter-
bury.
Earl of Derby.
Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.
Lord Foxford {^Earl of Limerick).
Lord KENRY (Earl of Dunravbn
PRESENT:
Lord Kenry {Earl of Dunraven and
Mount-Earl).
Lord Rothschild.
Lord Monkswell.
Lord Thring.
Lord Basing.
AND Mount-Earl), in the Chair.
Mr, JOHN LINCOLN MAHON, is called in : and, having been sworn,
is Examined, as follows :
21620. Chairman.^ What is your business or profession ?
I gm a practical engineer, a mechanic.
21621, Are you acquainted with the district about Cradley Heath ?
Yes, I have been there a number of times, and gone through it with the
express purpose of getting a knowledge of the facts, and I have a very thorough
acquaintance with the practical work of the iron trade, which makes it easier for
one to understand the chain making and nail making trades.
21622. Have you heard the evidence that has been given before the Com-
mittee ?
Yes, a large part of it.
2,1623. ^ do not think we need trouble you for any evidence as to the facts
of the case ; we have had a great deal of evidence already on that point ; but
we should be glad to hear any suggestions that you have to make?
The suggestion that 1 have to make I will slate as shortly as I can. I may
preface it by saying that the proposal I would like to put before you has been
carefully considered in detail by a committee in London, consisting of both
practical workmen and men of commercial experience ; it has also been
referred to a special conference of the Midland Counties Trades Federation. They
made some amendments, and after being finally adopted by a further committee
consisting of chain and nail makers exclusively, it was printed in its present
form (producing the Scheme, vide Appendix).
21624. Who «as representing the workmen?
I do not know their names, but they were elected by the conference ; but
Mr. Juggins will have a record of them I have no doubt.
21623. Who is the president or secretary of the Federation, do you know ?
I am not sure that they have a president. Mr. Juggins, I believe, is the organ-
ising secretary.
21626. Perhaps, first of all, you had better tell the Committee what your
general impressions of the nail and chain industries are ?
^ My idea as to the reason why these small industries are in such a low con-
dition is that, although there is a great deal of skill required to do the work, it
( 11 -) RR 2 is
31G
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
19ower of management ; and that the best way would be to get
shares taken partly by wotkmen and partly by philanthropic peo])le ?
Mav I say one word about that to make my position quite clear? I have no
doubt, in the first place, that these people have had so much attention directed
to them, and your Lordships here have done so much to bring their case before
the country, that if any of your Lordships were to appeal, or even if an entirely
unknown jterson were to appeal, for 5,000 /. to start woikshops, they would
get it ; but that w'ould be a matter of philanthropy. 1 want to see the Govern-
ment, I want to see the people themselves, dealing with this affair; I want to
see it treated politically.
21683. I want the people themselves to be possessors of their co-operative
stores, and not either the Government or philanthropic people r
I do not see how’ they can become the possessors (;f the co-operative workshops,
unless some ]>eople come forward and give them enough money to buy work-
shops.
21684. Supposing that you get philanthro])ic people to advance, to begin
with, certain capital, and then, as the trade goes on, transfer the capital
practically to the workmen, or allow them to subscribe 5 a. a week for the
purpose of getting the shares into their hands, there will be no difficulty, if you
can get the initiatory capital without the intervention of Government, if the
thing succeeds in placing the workmen in the position of owners of these
stores ?
I understand your Lordships’ proposal to be to make an agreement that as
(11.) s s 2 the
324
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\Qth March 1889 .]
Mr. Mahon.
[ Continued.
Ilie work developer, the orioinal slinreholders, or at least such of them as are not
nail or chain makers, should be compelled to transfer their shares to the workers
wheii the workers can buy them out. Otherwise they would not. If they were
ordinary investors, and the thing was paying well, they would only do it at a
premium
First of all, I think, you might raise the greater part of the money,
judging from what you liave said, from the workmen themselves, by getting
first ail amount from philanthropic people, on condition that they should he
paid off gradually, and that then you would get the workmen to subscribe small
sums, ])ay off the loan, and thereby become the owners ; but if \ou could not
do that, 1 am perfect!)' sure that so great a feeling has been excited that you
might get idrilanthropic people to advance the money, and that they would say,
“ We will advance it at a low rate of interest, and as soon as the workmen are
enabled to buy the shares we will transfer them to them ” r
But there is still an objection, leaving the argument where you have left it
now. Imagine that what you have proposed is done, that the people owned
the shares of their own workshops ; they will own them in did'erent propor-
tions ; the most industrious men will possibly own five, while a lazy sort of
man will own one. In a short time they will begin speculating amongst them-
selves, and possibly in the course of ten years you will find that all these
workshops belong to two or three capitalists ; the vices of the capitalist system
will work themselves itself out again.
2i68t5. The same thing would take place under the Government advance,
would it not ?
No ; because the stock would always helong to the Local Board, which
would have a separate existence as such, and it would never belong to the
actual workmen employed.
21687. As a matter of fact that is not the experience of the best co-operative
societies ; they do not tend, in my opinion, to converge into the hands of a few
capitalists?
I believe there is such a tendency ; not a very marked one.
21688. Chairman.'] Do you suggest, according to your scheme, that the
inferior workman should earn as much as the superior workman ?
No.
21689. But you would not allow a superior workman to invest his earnings
in a factory ?
I would not allow anybody to have any income from investments at all ; it
must be a dishonest proceeding, more or less, for anyone to get profit out of the
labour of other people.
21690. You suggest that the Board should hold this property in trust for the
people working?
Yes.
21691. Is there any reason why that should not be applied to any under-
taking started by private individuals from philanthropic motives. You suggest
that the State should lend the money and charge interest, and form a sinking
fund to jmy it off in a certain time; why should not private individuals do the
same thing fiom philanthropic motives?
I do not think private individuals would. My general experience of philan-
thropists is that they are men who want nine or ten per cent, on tlieir
investments.
211192. Are you aware of the Model Dwelling House Building Societies
in London ?
Yes; I think they get five per cent, at least; and I know other cases,
peoj.'le who have started these coffee shops to sujiply good and cheap food for the
people, these were started by philanthropists, who supply the worst food, and
take 15 or 20 per cent.
21693. Lord
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
32.3
\dth March. 1889 .]
Mr. Mahon.
[ Cuntinne'l.
21693. Lord Thrmg.~\ Take the co-operative works all over the country ; you
must be aware, with your great knowledge of these things, that while some of
them have of course failed, many others are most successful ?
There is no guarantee that a workman will do justice to In's fellow workmen
simply because he is a workman. As soon as he becomes the owner of capital,
and is able to extract jirofit out of the labour of otlier people, he may become as
bad as other capitalists.
21694. Would you have a law that the workman shall never be a capitalist ?
That the individual workman shall never be allowed to make profit out of any
other w^orkman’s labour.
21695. Chairman^ Not to invest anything at all in any business?
I think in all businesses the capital should belong to the community, and the
benefits which now go to the capitalist should go to the community.
21696. Lord Tkring.'l What do you mean by “ the community,” may I
ask ?
I mean the whole people.
2 1 697. Earl of Derby Are you aware that the co-operati-^e societies have a
very large amount of disposable capital ?
Yes.
21698. And that, as I am informed, they have sometimes a difficulty in
finding suitable investments for it ?
y es, they have.
21699. Would there be no means of obtaining funds from them to start an
industry such as you have described ?
If you convinced them that it was a thoroughly profitable investment they
would invest in it.
21700. If you convinced them that it would pay 5 per cent., for instance?
Yes, if you convinced them that it would pay 5 per cent., no doubt they
would. They would not be very eager to get 5 per cent. ; they can very
often get more.
21701. Would not a return of 3 percent, to anybody who advanced the capital
leave an ample remuneration to the persons employed ?
I think an ordinary commercial man would look upon this as a risky affair,
and would want something more than 3 per cent. ; he would rather have 4 per
cent, in something else.
21702. Do not you think that there would be plenty of people willing to take
the chance of not getting more than 3 per cent, out of an undertaking of this
kind?
Yes, from philanthropic motives.
21703. Assuming that the philanthropic motives may operate to some extent,
would not workmen, who made a little money, as they do in other occupations,
be willing to put it into an undertaking of this sort ?
This has been before the country for a great number of years. The philan-
thropists have been ajrpealed to again and again, but they would never do it,
and the reason they now come forward is, because there is a big agitation
threatening to bring the State in to do it. For instance, the Trades Union Con-
gress and the co-operative societies refused to help these people at all until they
found that an agitation was being got up, and is now going on, to bring in the
State to help them ; and now, from a sort of jealousy of socialistic agitation,
they will, no doubt, step forward and endeavour to clo the thing without the
help of the State; but had it not been for the action of the Socialists, who want
it done by the State, the Trades Union Congress, which has appointed a
committee to deal with this question, and the co-operative societies would never
have done anything.
( 11 .)
s s 3
21704. Then
326
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
19^// March 1889.]
Mr. Mahon.
[ Continued.
21704. Then I understand that the co-operators have taken up the matter
now ?
A few weeks ago, after we had begun this agitation.
21705. Never mind the impelling motive; as a matter of fact they are
doing- it ?
Yes.
2 1 706. If they do undertake, it, where is the necessity for action bv the
State ?
They have only promised to do it; and as that is very vague, especially in
connection with some of the people who offer to do it, we shall go on asking
the State to take it up.
21707. You will go on asking the State, not wanting it, but as a means of
getting other people to take it up ?
No ; we want the State to do it; but if other people take it up Parliament
w’ill not do it ; but I have no doubt it will not be done by private individuals
or co-operative societies, or trade unions, or anybody else, unless these people
send somebody to Parliament specially to demand it.
21708. Then you do not use the threat of State interference to induce others
to take action ?
Not with that motive ; but it -wdll have that effect.
21709. I do not think you have said in your evidence how your scheme will
affect private employers in this business ; you propose to bring in the State to
compete with them ?
Yes; 1 think it would extinguish them, on the whole.
21710. Then you wish that private em[>loyers should be extinguished?
I do.
21711. Why do you desire it in this particular trade, if it is not to be uni-
versal ?
I only propose that it shall be tried in this particular trade because it must
be tried' somewhere, and at first in a limited scheme. We cannot goto Parlia-
ment and ask it to revolutionise the whole of industry at once ; but if you go to
Parliament and say, “ Try these ideas upon this scale ; it will only cost you a
few thousand pounds, if it is an utter failure, and it will satisfy the people
carrying on the agitation,” Parliament will perhaj)S do that.
21712. What you really look to, ultimately, is the State as the universal
employer ?
Exactly.
21713. Then what we are dealing with in your scheme is not a scheme for
the relief of distress among these particular workers, but a scheme for eventu-
ally altering the whole system of employment ?
Yes. I should like to answer the question in this way : I do not propose
merely to relieve the discress of these people; that is not the intention, although it
would have that effect; but what I propose is, to take these people out of the
dependent and practically enslaved position which they are in, and put them in
another position where tliey will be free from the extortions of the fogger and
sweatei and capitalist, and be able to get the fruits of their own labour in an
honest way ; and as to lack of initiative and enterprise, and so on, I say that
the State has allowed these capitalists and foggers to grind these people so that
they have not spirit and intelligence left in them, and because of that the State
must]^step in and make up for its past misdeeds, or failings, or shortcomings.
21714. I did not quite understand something you said ; that you objected to
any workman investing in any business his savings ; did I not understand you
to say that?
Not exactly in that way. I stated, in reply to his Lordship in the Chair,
thatj^l believe, in principle, all capital should belong to the community. I do
not object that workmen should invest money like other people while the
present
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
327
IQth March 1889.] xMr. Mahon. \_Continued.
present s\ stem prevails ; but I stated in answer to the general q'le•^tion that the
ultiniate and just plan would be, to have no private investors of capital at all,
but that the people should be paid fairly for the labour they did, and never
get a profit out of the labour of other people.
21715. Everybody to work, and everybody to be in the pay of the State ?
Everybody to woik, certainly, except those who were incapable, and whom
the communitv ought 10 take care of; and t(j be in the pay of the State, if you
have the same nieaning of that term that 1 have ; that is, not simply a central-
ised bureaucracy, but the State in its whole sense, nieaning the whole Govern-
ment, both central and local; and such a system could never be a centralised
system, but would involve an enormous development of real local government.
21716. I do not quite understand what you said about there being no need
of protection to avoid being umlersold by foreign producers ; how can you be
sure that foreigners working longer hours will not produce more cheaply than
English workmen under your system ?
d hey may produce more cheaply, and they may sell more cheaply, though
those are two different things ; but it does not follow that we will buy their
goods ; foreigners only send goods into this country on condition that they get
other goods out of it again ; and we shall not trade with them, unless it is to our
interest to do so.
21717. But do you mean that if any given article is produced here at a cost
of 1 /., and could be brought in here from a foreign country at a cost of 15 s.,
the ai ticle produced on the spot at the cost of 1 1. would be sold, and that
the cheaper article brought from abroad would not be sold?
If we produced an article here at the price of 1 1., and the Germans produced
the same article at the price of 15 s., we must sell our article before we
get 1 1. for it. To whom shall we sell it? Not to the Germans, because they
would only give us 1 5 or perhaps 14 5. 9 d , fur it. Of course, we should
simply consume our own article ; there is no advantage there in carrying on
trade. I think the thing is entirely different where you have a capitalist who
is selling goods from the case where you have a number of workmen simply
working tp feed and clothe themselves, which would be the position of the
community in that case.
21718. 'I'hen you think the workmen would prefer to givireement you have with the people who work for you ?
Yes, quite an understanding ; it is a usual thing; in some |daces they pay
\ s. 6 d.\ in some places the man keeps a blacksmith on the ground on purpose
to repair the tools, and they are charged 1 6 (/.
21004. Do you know whether that is contrary or not contrary to the Truck
Amendment Act of 1887 ?
Not that I am aware of; I should think not; if it were it ought to be
altered.
21905. The clause in the Act is the 8th clause ; it says : “ No deduction
shall be made from a workman’s wages for sharpening or repairing tools except
by agreement not forming part of the condition of hiring ”
But
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
343
19^/i March 1889.] Mr. Mooke. \_Conlinued.
But it is a thoroughly understood thing, and a custom ; so that I hardly see
that it could apply.
21906. hovdi Monhswell.'] Has your attention ever been called to any com-
plaint of your hags being under weight ?
No ; I have heard of such a thing; some of our people perhaps have said,
“ Well, those bags do not weigh two lbs. but I have said that they weighed
so near two lbs., and some of them would weigh over two lbs., that there is
nothing that one might be offended about, or feel that there was anything in
the shape of oppression; but, as a rule, our people do not pay for any iron,
so that I do not see that it is one of those things that need much concern
them.
21907. The allegation is that the iron you give them as 56 lbs. weight really
only weighs 55 lbs., and they have to put 52 out of that, just as if it. were
56 lbs. weight ?
Respectable ironmasters make their iron 56 lbs. weight, and sometimes it is
a little over; and my experience is this, that, as a rule, they have nothing to
complain about in that direction ; they get their weight, because I do not get
any disputes amongst my workpeople, and I have 22 of them, and if there
was anything of the kind I should olten get disputes.
2190S. But you say that they have told you that your bags are underweight
sometimes ?
That has generally occurred when 1 see they have come pretty near, or I see
they have been a litile short sometimes, 1 say, ‘‘ Look here, you must make
two bundles of nails from two bundles of iron,” and they have said sometimes,
“ Well, your bags do not weigh quite 2 lbs.” I have said, ‘‘ Well, they weigh
so near 2 H>s. that it would not be very much to your advantage.” .1 have
simply made that remark but not deducted anything.
21909. Chairman^ These same 22 bands that are working for you now,
have they been working for you for a long time ?
I have some of them that have been working for me for 10 or 12 years.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. JOSEPH PRICE, is called in ; and having been sworn, is Examined,
as follows :
21910. Chairman.^ What is your business ?
Shipping and railw'ay spike manufacturer.
21911. Have you a factory ?
Yes.
21912. Where is it ?
Springbill, Halesowen.
21913. How many hands are there working in it?
I can employ 20 on my ground when it is done : I am having it repaired
now.
21914. How many shops have you ?
Two.
21915. Ten in each shop?
No ; I have one shop 86 feet long, 20 feet high, and 17 feet wide, and I only
put 12 hands in that.
21916. And eight in the other ?
Six in the other.
21917. How many women?
Four.
( 11 .)
u u 4
21918. Any
344
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
19^/i March ]889.] JMr. Price. ^Continued,
21918. Any children ?
]No.
21010. Do you do any w'ork yourself ?
Well; a little.
21920. How long have you had this factory ?
I have been in the trade now for 16 yejrs.
21921. Do you call yourself a practical nail maker ?
Yes.
21922. You worked at making nails before you had the factory r
Yes, all my life-time.
21923. All these people are working directly for you :
Yes.
21924. Hom do you pay them ?
I get the iron from the iron manufacturer, and i get it in bundles, and they
take out 10 or 12 or 14 bundles, or what not. I pay them by the bundle; I
do not weigh them at all ; 1 do not weigh either the iron or the nails, because I
pay them by ihe bundle.
21925. So much a bundle of iron?
Yes.
21926. But supposing they do not male their proper quantity of nails?
Ihey do ; they can make them and a little over if anything.
21927. Do you mean that you trust entirely to them to make the jrroper
quantity ?
Yes.
21928. You never weigh them at all ?
We have to weigh them when I send them away to the customers, but I
never charge them for anything.
21020. It never happens that they are short ?
If they are short one time, they are sure to be over another ; I never stopped
a penny in my life.
21930. It is as broad as it is long, you mean ; it comes out right ?
Yes, it comes out right.
21931. Y hat allowance do you make for waste?
The V aste is two j)ounds a bundle.
21932. Four pounds a cwt. ?
Yes.
23933. 1 hen you pay according to what we call the “ in-list,” I suppose ?
Yes.
21934. Do you get all your iron from the iron manufacturer or any from the
nail manufactureis ?
Most of it from the iron manufacturers ; I only co very little through the
other.
21935. And how do you sell your nails?
I sell them to merchants generally.
21936. Not to any nail manufacturers?
Very seldom.
21937. Have you heaid the evidence of the last witness ?
1 have.
21938. Did you hear what be said about women’s work and children’s work,
that it ought to be restricted ?
Yes, I believe that. 1 have done so this many years. 1 do not believe
in it
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
345
19lh March 1889.] Mr. Price. \_Continued.
21939. Do you think that the domestic workshops ought to be put under the
Factory Act ?
Yes.
21940. What charge do you make to the people working for you; how
much a bundle ; you pay them a certain price per bundle, do not you ?
I pay them to the farthing by the list.
21941. What do you take off.^
Nothing at all.
21942. Do you mean that you find them in everything -
Yes.
21943. And pay them the list price?
Yes.
21944. Charge nothing for repairing tools?
No.
21945. Is it the general custom in the trade to charge nothing?
It ought to be ; 1 never charge anything.
21946. Do you keep the tools in repair for them?
The workmen themselves reckon to do them ; they can do them so much
cheaper, and if they have one that they cannot do I pull my jacket off myself
and do it.
21947. But generally they do them themselves, I suppose ?
Yes.
21948. In your shop?
Yes ; I have got a blacksmith’s shop on purpose.
21949. Do they ever have to straighten coiled iron?
No.
21950. You would not give out sucli a thing?
No.
21951. Do you ever buy nails yourself?
No more than what I have got on the ground. The fact is I have got two
out, but they are under the same restrictions as those on tlie ground.
21952. You mean two people working for you?
Yes, they are just above in father’s shop, that is all.
21953. And you pay them the same ?
1 keep it on just the same as rny own factory, and so I pay them just the
same, and find them everything just the same as it is on my own ground.
21954. The shop and firing, and everything is found for them?
Yes.
21955. And beyond that you never buy any nails from outside?
No. ‘
21956. Never have ?
No.
21957. Have you a provision shop ?
No.
21958. Or a public-house ?
No.
21959* Ho you know anything of that trucking and trucksters we have heard
of?
I think it would be a very good thing if it were done away with ; a blessing
to the country.
(1 1.) X X 21960. You
346
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
19M March, 1889.] Mr. Price. \_Contimied.
•21 (jGo. You think it does exist, and that it is a bad thin^ ?
Yes; they ought not to be allowed to sell anything on the ground where
there is manufacturing done; any kind of manufacture.
21961. Do you keep about the same number of hands at work all the year
round?
Yes.
21962. As full work; full time?
Yes.
21963. How do you manage to have your business so i-egular as that?
I very often contract, so that I can keep them on for six or nine months
together; if my customers do not take the goods, I can keep them in stock till
they will take them.
21964. Y^ou accumulate stock?
Yes, a little, not a great lot.
21965. I suppose that the demand for nails is much greater sometimes than
at others, is it not?
Yes.
21966. And yet you manage to keep the same number of hands at work all
the year round r
Yes.
21967. I suppose you could get a great many more orders than you can
execute sometimes ?
I will not have more than I can execute ; I let somebody else have them.
21968. And at other times you accumulate stock?
Not much ; just to keep the men on ; so that 1 can keep the men on, that is
all I want to do.
21969. Lord RotJischild?^ What is the condition of the nail trade now ?
It is a lot better now than it has been for years.
21970. And you do not suffer at all from the foreign competition?
I really cannot tell much about the foreign competition; if we could not get
the foreign orders, we should be done ; we should be stopped.
21971. You get orders from abroad ^
Yes, through the Birmingham merchants and others ; we could not stop it
all ; they are obliged to come.
21972. I meant, do you suffer from the machine-made nails which are made
abroad ?
I do not think we do : I lost an order last week, I think, that went to
Belgium, but 1 cannot tell how it went ; I do not think it is in the price either;
so my customer said, that it was not in the price.
21973. Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.~\ Do you think it would be possible to
restrict women to working at certain classes of nails in the nail making ?
Yes, I do.
21974, Is it true that there are certain classes of nails that can practically
only be made by women ?
They do work that they ought not to do ; they take men’s work out of their
fingers.
21975. But there is a class of work which would be more suited to women,
is there not ?
Yes, as high as 5-16ths ; they do not want to make higher ; 3-8ths and half
an inch and 5-8tii.s are a shame for them to make.
21976. Chairman'] 'I’he trade is better now’ than it was last year, a great
deal, is it not ?
Yes.
21977. Within
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
347
\Qth March 1889.] Mr. Peice. [^Continued.
21977. Within your expe’rieiice and memory of the trade, can people earn
now as good wages as they ever could, or are wages gone down much ?
No, they cannot earn as much now as they did when I began first.
21978. Tiiey earn a good deal less?
Ye^, they earn less than they did in 1874 ; but it is better now than it was
when Mr. Burnett came over ; w’e liave got an advance in wages.
21979. Does the factory inspector e\ er visit your place ?
Yes.
21980. How often has he done so?
I really could not teil you, I am sure, for I am not always at my place. He
comes very often when 1 am not there.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. JAMES COX, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is Examined, as
follows :
21981 . Chairman?^ What is your business ?
A nail factor.
21982. You do not make any nails yourself?
Sometimes.
21983. Have you got a factory or a large shop ?
Only a small shop.
21984. Do you employ any hands in it ?
No.
21985. Only yourself ?
Yes.
21986. But you buy nails from outside?
Yes.
21987. All kinds of nails ?
The sort that are made in our class of work.
21988. Where do you live?
At Old Swinford.
21989. What kind of nails do they make there ?
J he Essex hurdle and gate nails, and common nails, and other sorts.
21990. Whom do you buy these from ?
The workpeople.
2i9()i. And how do you pay for them ; do you pay on a regular list ?
According to the list.
21992. What is the list ?
The list of 1879 .
21993. You are paying on the list of 1879 ?
Yes.
21994. But with certain deductions?
Only the carriage ; I take 4 a. a bundle for carriage.
21995. But you are not paying the full prices of the 1879 list?
No, 10 per cent, reduction.
21996. Ten per cent, off everything ?
Yes.
21997. What else do you take off?
Fourpence a bundle carriage some sorts, some sorts threepence, and some
twopence, according to what they are.
( 11 .)
21998. Anything
X X 2
348
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
19M March 1889.]
Mr. Cox.
[Continued.
21998. Anything else ?
No.
21999-
Yes.
And you have to carry these nails to the men you sell them to ?
22000. Whom do you sell them to r
Two or three parties I supply with them ; Mr. Shaw, of Birmingham, for one.
22001. How far is Birmingham from you ?
About 10 or 12 miles.
22002. You have to carry these nails at your own expense ?
No ; they come into the village where I live, and take them themselves.
22003. How far have you got to carry the nails to sell them ?
About a quarter of a mile.
22004. And where do you get the iron from ?
From the warehouse.
22005. deliver this iron to the people who make the nails ?
Yes.
22006. And fetch the nails back ?
Yes.
22007. And charge them 4 d. for carriage ?
Yes.
22008. How much iron do you give out at a time ?
It is according to what they are making ; sometimes a bundle, sometimes
tw'O, three, four, five, or six.
22009. What would be the largest quantity ?
I should think about two or three cwts. would be as large as they would be.
22010. How long would it take them to work that up ; say three cwts. ?
It would depend upon the size they are set to ; it would take some a week,
another not above half a week ; sometimes it would take them three or four
weeks to work three cwts. up.
22011. Does it ever happen that they get the iron from you, and do not
return you the nails ?
Not very often.
22012. It does sometimes ?
It might occasionally.
22013. What happens then ? '
I generally get it in the course of time ; I wait a bit longer.
22014. Do you ever buy iron from them ?
Not without they run it in by making above the yield ; the quantity they are
supposed to make out of a bundle.
22015. A man might come to you and say he had saved so much iron, and
you would buy it from him ?
Occasionally.
22016. You would not know whether he had saved it or not ?
I could tell from the book what he had worked in.
2201 7. He might be working for other people, might he not ?
I know who works for other people.
22018. Do not the people you buy nails from work for any but you ?
Some of them.
22019. Most
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
349
19^^ March 1889.] Mr. Cox. \^Covtinued,
22019. Most of them r
A few of them ; some do not.
22020. Some do, and some do not ?
Yes.
22021. Do you make any allowance if they have to straighten the ii'on?
Mine is all straight ready, all in rods, not this coil iron.
22022. You never have any complaints about that ?
No.
22023. Do you keep a shop ?
No.
22024. How long have you been buying nails .'
Twenty years, I suppose, nearly.
22023. And have you been paying that 1879 list ever since 1879 r
No ; there has been 20 per cent, reduction upon it since then, and now it is
10 per cent.
2202(i. When was the change made ?
A few months back, five or six months perhaps ; I could not say exactly.
22027. Do the men come to you for work, or do you go to them ?
They generally come to me for work.
22028. Do you make any bargain with them as to price ?
No ; 1 reckon to go by the list.
22029. And if you could get nails cheaper than that, would you do it ?
I have refused them many a time ; I never did buy any under the list.
22030. Do you ever buy nails from outside people altogether, from people
to whom you have not given any iron ?
I might occasionally, if it suited my purpose to buy them just when I wanted
them ; if they came to ask me, if it suited my purpose, I should have them and
have done with it.
22031. If a man came with nails that he had to sell at a cheap price you
would not refuse them ?
I have many a time.
22032. Why ?
Because I thought they were low enough without.
22033. would like to keep to the regular price if you can?
Yes, 1 should like for it to be higher so that I could pay them more.
22034. But you cannot afford to pay more than vour neighbours ?
No.
22035. Suppose one of your neighbours is not so particular as you are, and
will buv cheaper than the list price, would you, or not, be obliged to do the
same thing ?
Of course I should as a general thing.
22036. Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.^ How do the people live from whom
you buy the nails ; have t hey at all comfortable cottages, and healthy ?
V\ ell, in a general way they are not much out of the way with regard to
being comfortable.
22037. And are they healthy ?
They seem pretty healthy : there is not much sickness that prevails.
22038. Do women get ill with overwork?
No ; they do not work the class of work that the Halesowen people do ; they
work at smaller work.
( 11 .)
X X 3
22039. Ho
350
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
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( 357 )
Die Jovis^ 2 !^ Martii^ 1889 .
LORDS PRESENT:
Earl of Derby.
Viscount Gordon {^Earl of Aberdeen).
Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.
Lord Foxford {Earl of Limerick).
Lord Kenry {Earl of Dunraven and
Mount-Earl).
Lord Sandhurst.
Lord Monkswell.
Lord Thring.
I.ORD KENRY (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl), in the Chair
Mr. JOHN EDWARD MORRIS, is called in ; and, having been sworn,
is Examined, as follows :
22133. Chairman.~j You are an Inspector of Weights and Measures ?
The County Inspector, under the Food and Drugs Act and under the Weights
and Measures Act, for South Staffordshire.
22134. Do you know the districts that have come under this inquiry ; are
they in your district ?
A portion of the places are under my district.
22135. Which would they l)e ?
The places under my district would be Cradley Heath, Old Hill, Rowley, and
Blackheaih. The parts of the district which are not under my jurisdiction are
Cradley, The Lye, and Halesowen.
22136. They would be in wdiat district ?
In Worcestershire ; and also Netherton, which would be with Dudley, in the
borough of Dudley.
22137. What are your duties as far as the weights and measures are con-
cerned ?
In the weights and measures my duties would be the inspection of the shops
and places where weights and scales are kept, upon the return of which a pay-
ment depends either in money or labour, and to see that such weights are duly
brought to be adju.sted on advertised days at Cradley Heath.
22138. Do you visit the various factories and workshops on your own
initiative ?
I visit the shops of the purchasers of the nails and the rivets, and I also have
visited at the warehouses and small rooms where the nails and rivets are made
by the manufacturers.
22139. Is it your duty to visit them on your own initiative, or do you wait
till you are called upon ?
On my own initiative.
22140. What sort of weighing-machines are they that are generally used by
masters and manufacturers r
The manufacturers, as a rule, have antiquated weights which have not been
(11.) yy 3 adjusted
358
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2 1 3/arc/( 188!).] Mr. MoKUlS [^Continued.
adjusti d or stamped for a liundred or more years ; they also use stones for the
purpose of weighing ; 1 have some stones with me to show to your Lordships.
When the inspector points out to the matiufacturers that such weights are
unstamped, ami also light, and tliat they have no legal right to have such
weights in their possession, their reply is that they accept the weight from the
manufacturer to who e they sell; and these weights are not used for buying or
for Selling ; and therefore such weights evade the provisions of the Weights
and Measures Act under Section 59 .
22141. What do they use them for?
They use them as a guide.
22142. They use them as a guide for their own information?
Yes, for their own information.
22143. Tliey accept the weight of the person they sell to ?
Tliey accept the weight of the person they sell to.
22144. You have got some of thO'C stones, you say?
es, 1 have. I have pointed out to them, time after time, that instead of
such a weight being a guide, it is sim|)ly a snare and deception ; for on account
of all these weights being light, goods weighed with such weights to register will
show much heavier relurns than they really are; for instance, if every weight is
so many ounces light, the goods weighed by such weights will appear to them to
be heavier than they really are. I have here a lew specimens. This {producing
a stone) is sup|)osed to be a 7 Ih. stone, whereas it weighs 6 lbs. 3 oz. Here is
a 1 lb. pebble (or, as they call them “ licbbles ”) weighing I lb. 3 drains.
221^5. Three drachms over the proper weight?
Yes. Here is a 14 -lb. stone weighing 7 ozs. light ; 13 lbs. 9 ozs.
2214b. What kind of people use them ?
The small manufacturers, who supj.ly to the foggers and to the nail and rivet
buyers.
22147. *^0 not quite clearly understand. }ou when you say that by reason
of these men weighing with light stones, the quantity appears to be heavier?
If you were to load a scale up, and then were to put on weights which were
all ot them light, the return would appear to be more than it really w'as.
22148. Then what kind of weights do the foggers use?
J v\ould like to speak of the scales used, not only by the foggers, but by all
the nail and rivet buyers ; it is hard t(.> define the difference between the one
class and the other.
22149. Will you explain it in your own way ?
Nine out of ten of the nail and rivet buyers use a platform machine of a very
superior quality. I have here the design of the machine which is principally
used bv the nail buyers {showing it to the Committee) upon the platform, of
which the article to be weighed is pla( ed, and the weight upon the pendulum
attached to the steelyard. Others use that form of scale {pointing to it).
22150. What do you call this ?
Thi^ is a beam scale, with pans both similar, and with dead weights.
22:51. And those are used indiscriminately by the large manufacturers and
the foggers and all who buy nails?
By the I uyers, all who buy nails.
22152. Are they generally correct?
The scab s and" weights themselves are mostly correct. I have had eleven
prosecutions during two years only, with fines amounting to 35 1.
22153. An ong how many buyers w’ould that be ; how many inspections?
The days I devoted to districts named were 3 .^ in one year and 29 the second
year.
22154. I want
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
3^9
2lst March 1889.1
Mr. Mokkis.
[ Continued.
22154. I want to gft at the proportion of the prosecutions to tiie total
number of tlie weiyhts and measures that you inspected ?
Five per cent.
22155. Tiien I understand from you that this habit of the makers of nails
cf using- Slones and improper weights, to weigh, leads the 11 to believe that they
are cheated when they are not?
I take it so, to a great extent.
22156. Is there any way, to your knowledge, m which they are deceived as
to the true weights by these factors, or buyers, or foggers .'
I have delected, on one occasion, an iron bar placed beneath the scale, which
was brought before your notice, I i;elieve, last iMesday, lor which I obtained a
very heavy fine.
22157. The case which was mentioned bef< re the Committee was one where
there was a quarry ))iece used. It is on page 206, at No 20209. Mr. Price
say, “ I went to buy a ton ol’ nails of a fogger myself, and he had got on the
machine, on the one side of the weiglit, half a quarry piece; when he went to
weigh the half ton of nails for me he put that on one side; that showed me he
had l)een weighing for his men with half a t|uarry pie-ce on the scale ; that
would weigh a pound or two pounds.” Is that the case that came under your
notice ?
No, 1 have not. heard of that. This is the one I referred to {handing in a
printed pajtet'), one against a man named Welling'.
22158. Perhapc? you had better read it to us ?
I think iliat this case has been reported upon to your Lordships by Mr.
Spragiie Orarn.
22159. You had better read it ?
In this case I had several special visits over to Blackheath, having information
that a nail and rivet buyei-, named Samuel Wellings, was defrauding his work-
men by having beneath the platform of a weighing-machine an iron bar. The
bar was so fastened as to be taki n oil and on at pleasure, and had 1 not caught
the defendant weighing fi^r a man, 1 should not have found the bar on
inspection, and therefore the machine, when I should have seen it, would
have been correct. 1 went over on one occasion and got into his place
while he was weighing. I found a bar underneath the scale, making the ma-
chine 6 lbs. against the seller. I seized the machine as it was, and took the
matter before the Old Hill Petty Sessions. 1 also persuaded the aggrieved
party, a man named Jeremiah Cranton, to proceed against Samuel Wellings for
the amount he had defrauded him of by weighing his supply in such a manner.
He obtained 3 1. 1 1 .9. 6 t?. fnun the bench, and I obtained a fine of 5 1. On
another occasion I had information given to me that a nail and rivet buyer was
in the habit of supplying to his workmen provisions to be jiaid for by labour.
I inspected his place, and I found, in a loom facing the road, a large stock of
provisions. The shutters of the window of the shop had not been opened for
six years, to prevent anyone seeing that he was doing a trade of the kind. 1
find that all these tradespeople who evade the Truck Act never send their
weights to be duly adjusted to the adjusting room, and therefore they of
necessity become light. They do not send the weights hecanse it would cause
the inspector to know, and information to get out, that they vvere doing a trade
in groceries. I seized all his weights ; they were all light, and h^ was fined 5 /. and
costs. 1 also seized his weights from his nail and rivet shop, which also were light;
he \^as fined, at the same time, 5 /. for that offence. He was also fined 5 1. for
using a j)air of scales of the descrijition i first showed your Lordships, beam
scales, which were out of balance. Although he said that the error would be
against himself in buying, still, as both pans of the scale were idenrical and
could be reversed and used on either side, I took the case to the magistrates,
and he, also, was fined 5/. on this charge in addition. 'I'welve months before
(11) Y Y 4 I had
360
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2\st March 1889 .]
Mr. Morris.
[ Continued.
I had occasion to prosecute on the 16 th of March 1887 , Joseph Billingham, of
Cradley Heath, who also was selling provisions in a room at the back of his
shop, and I obtained fines against him, in the aggregate, of 8 1 . Uiere is one
point that, with your permission, I should like to draw your attention to, as to
the forms of scales used by the nail buyers. It is ratliera technical matter, and
I should have to come and explain it to you. The form of this scale is made
on this principle : There is a steelyard which comes across from there
(pointing), and then it is balanced bv a weight put upon here (pouitin^).
Supposing there is a hundred -weight put upon this platform, then there is a
hundred-weight compensating weight upon the pendulum, this being made on
the accelerating jirinciple, which carries the steelyard so as to gently touch against
the top of the slot. Now, these scales are most valuable scales for anybody
selling by, because he would not be likely to place more U[)On the platform than
the exact amount necessary to get the steelyard to touch the top of the slot ;
but if they are used by anybody for buying, and he himself handles that machine
in the buying, by putting his finger to prevent the steelyard going up with a
sharp blow, he might have two cwt. on the platform and yet only have one cwt.
on the pendulum.
22160. You mean the seller would not heai- the sharp blow ?
No, and the steelyard could not go any higher, because it is sto[)])ed by the
slot; and although I, as the inspector of weights and measures for South Staf-
fordshire, am the inspecior of the scales and weights used, I am not the
inspector of what is weighed over the scales; it would be impo 3 sil)le for an
inspector to be present during every transaction of the weiirhing. A machine
would be perfectly right in itself, and yet it might be used fiaudulently.
22161. Would it be within your power to prosecute in a c;ise where the ma-
chine was used Iraudulently
It would be wiihin my powers, but the difficulty would he for the inspector
to find it out. '1 he class of people who take these nails and rivets to the middle-
men are so ignorant, that I fear that they would not be in the least likely to
look after the weighing being carried out correctly.
22162. Then 1 take it from you that it is e.asy for a man buying to use one
of these machines for his own advantage ?
If he uses it himself.
22163. Then as a matter of fact does the buyer use it himself?
Certainly, in all the cases that have come under my notice. There is another
form of machine which is sometimes used, and that is called a vibrating machine ;
and in that case the steelyard does not touch the top of the slot, but vibrates
between the slots, and when the cwt. is on the platform the 1 cwt. multi-
plying weight exactly balances between the slots. That is preferable for this
purpose — for here the buyer weighs himself ; although the accelerating is the
best machine lor the seller to sell by.
22164. Do you know whether the werhmen ever express a wish to weigh
themselves ?
I have never had a single complaint from the workmen, or else I should only
be too pleased to follow tlie cases out. I have followed out all cases brought to
my notice.
22165. Do you suppose they are in ignorance of the fact that this machine
could be so used against them ?
I cannot answer that question. I have not had a complaint from them. I
may say that during the whole of tliree years during which I have been ap-
pomted the county inspector, although I have collected 80 1 . in adjusting fees
and stamping fees at Cradley Heath where I have attended eight times every
year, I have never had weights sent me from any of the small manufacturers
thenUelves. This {pointing to a loeight) is a weight against the Act of Par-
liament, a 3 lb. weight; that is a 3 lb. weight which was done away with
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
361
2\st March Mr. Morkis. [^Continued.
a long time ago, it is light ; since the Act of 1878 it has been done away
with.
22166. What occurred in that case ?
I could not prosecute, because they said they only used it as a guide.
22167. That weight you say was used by one of the large manufacturers ?
He would employ some 10 or 12 workmen.
22168. I do not quite clearly understand what you mean by excusing himself
by saying that he only used it as a guide ; do you mean that he did not actually
use it for weighing ?
He did not actually use it for weighing; he had a platform machine which he
said he used for the weighing, and that platform machine was perfectly correct.
This was in another part of his premises where the men were weighing to hand
over to him. His buying place, and also the manufacturing place, were on the
same premises.
22169. And his contention would be that the men were using this in the
same way as they use these stones ?
As a guide.
22170. Earl of Derby.'] How can a weight be used as a guide if you do not
weigh by it ?
1 have done all that 1 can to press that upon these ignorant people ; but
they will have these weights ; they will not keep them adjusted.
22171. Do you mean that they only want to test for their own guidance what
the weight may be of articles for which they use these weights?
They would use these weights, I take it, for three purposes ; first, to see how
much iron they would practically put into a chain; secondly, to see how many
links would be made for that chain ; and in the third place, as a rough guide to
weigh over their manufactured goods before they take them to be sold to the
fogger, and the rivet and nail buyer.
22172. Chairman.] There is nothing illegal in the fact of a man being in
possession of, and using such a weight?
Not if he could show to the satisfaction of the Bench that it was not used
for the purpose of trade.
22173 I think you said that you had been three years county inspector.^
Yes, with respect to Stafibrdshire.
22174. And you mentioned two cases where you prosecuted for false weights,
or for a man tampering with the weighing machine, and you told us that you
had 11 prosecutions altogether ?
Eleven prosecutions among the nail, rivet, and chain buyers. I have had in
the Cradley Heath district 34 prosecutions during the two years in all ; but the
other prosecutions were Avith the retail tradespeople.
22175. As to these other cases of these 11, were they something of a similar
character to what you have described?
Yes, of a similar character, but not quite so bad. If I may be allowed,
I should like to give you a summary of my ground. The ground over
which I have jurisdiction is at least 30 miles long and 20 miles wide, and
contains a population of upwards of 550,000. The population of the chain and
nail makers is about 40,000 upon my ground. During 1887 I devoted
33 days to that ground, one ninth of my whole time, although, according to the
population, it would be about one fifteenth of my total time that I should liaA'e
devoted to it. The next year I devoted 27 days; that was about the same ; I
did that on account of my knowledge of the ignorance of the population, and I
felt my need to look after the protection of the general public there more than
in some of the other grounds.
22176. I gather from that that you think you have got more than one man
can do, that your district is too large ?
(11.) Zz Well,
362
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
21i-^ iliarc/! 1889.'! Mr. Morris. [^Continued.
Well, I may say that had it not been for my belief last Christmas that
cradhy Meath, Blackheath, and Rowley were going into Worcestershire, I
certainly should have applied to my eounty autliorities for a little more
assistance, and then after that time on account of the county councils soon
taking the place of the couniy magistrates, 1 preferred to wait and try and
work very much harder myself until the time came ; but I may say that I am
applying at once to get more assistance in Staffordshire. My application has
gone in, and I hope to see the Earl of Mlarrowby shortly.
22177. What kind of assistance?
My wish is to have assistance to take from me to some extent the need of attend-
ance on the adjusting days ; that is, when my presence is only necessaiy to see
that the work is done properly, and to give out the certificates, and to reeeive the
money fiom the people who bring their weights; but I have a good staff of
assistants whom I could thoroughly trust, with a clerk in charge instead of myself.
On those days, while this clerk attends at the adjusting looms, I could devote
my time to heavier and closer inspection. I had need to adopt that plan,
because Tamworth and Lichfield are both coming into South Staffordshire
under the last Act of Parliament, the County Government Act, and taking in
an extra population of 30,000 more will require some slight alteration in the
plans.
22178. Do you think that the assistants having technical knowledge of the
trade would be of any value to you, I mean men who might be supposed to be
up to the dodges and tricks of the trade, if there are any ?
I think I have that in my staff'.
22179. Then in your opinion are these methods of tampering with weighing-
machines common ?
I do not think so ; I believe the number of those men among the foggers,
and also the nail buyers, is very small in proportion to the honest men.
22 I 80. The foggers and the nail buyers use the same kind of machine ?
Ves, the platform machine.
22181. All that you have said would apply equally to the one and to the other ?
To the one and to the other ; it is not for me to make a distinction between
the classes of purchasers ; I have to inspect the weights and measures.
22 I 82. Now as to the trucking ; is that a common thing r
I think that there are very few indeed of the foggers wdio have not some
shop, kept by the wife or by some relation, not in secret, like the case 1 have given
you, but openly, and although I do not know that it is compulsory for the
people from whom they buy nails and rivets to buy from such shops, still I
believe that they are expected to do so.
22183. And would probably lose their work if they did not ?
I would rather leave that to be answered by Mr. Hoare.
22184. Are there many such cases as these you describe where provisions
are sold, not in what you call a shop, but secretly ?
I have found upon many occasions shops in back premises that cannot be
seen from the road.
22185. That, I suppose, miglit not be called a shop r
The question is what constitutes a shop. If I found a counter and scales
fixed, and a stock of provisions, I should reckon it to be a shop. 1 consider that
(if it was practicable) if at four places, at Blackheath, at Cradley, at heLye,
and at Rowley, four rooms were taken, and a man was placed in charge with a
good weighing machine, and all the people who supplied the foggers, and all
other buyers of nails and rivets were to have their articles weighed over this
machine, and it were compulsory’' that the nail buyers and rivet buyers should
take the ticket given in weighing over such machine, a small fee charged for
the weighing might, to a great extent, pay the cost of the men in charge, and
at
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
368
2\st March 1889.] Mr. Mokkis. [^Continued.
at the same time, the county inspector of weights and measures mi^ht have
supervision given to him of these tour rooms, not as regards the paying of
salaries to the men, nor the receipt of the money, which might be lemitted
direct, but simply to see that twice a year this platform machine was directly
tested with standards of the Board of Trade. In that case I cannot' see how
any complaint could arise as to the fraudulent use of any' weighing macliine
22186. You think it should he made compulsory that all the goods should
be weiglu d over these machines ?
Yes ; there is one clause in the i;ew Weights and Measures Bill in reference
to the authorities placing the machines; it is a Bill which is brought in by
Sir Michael Hicks Beach ; the draft was out on the 27th of February.
22187. What is the provision in that Bill?
A clause that local authorities may place a weighing machine, and goods
may be weighed over this machine, and the return of such machine shall be
binding, as in weighing coal.
22188. Do you think that is sufficient ?
I think that it is possible to insist that no nail dealers or buyers of nails and
rivets should take any return, except the return from this weighing machine in
the hands of an independent party who is appointed under the local
authority.
22189. You think that would be necessary. As I understand you the pro-
vision in the Bill is optional, and I understand you to say that you think it
ought to be obligatory ?
It may be necessary in that district alone on account of the ignorance ; but
when the people are better educated there they will be better able to look after
their interests in the weighing; it means a little more care in the working of
the weighing machine.
22190. You have no official knowledge of districts that are notin South
Staffordshire ?
None whatever.
22191. Have you any general knowledge of theni ?
I constantly hear remarks about them.
22192. I mean have you any opinions whicli you would like to express
to the Committee as to the state of thing existing to your knowledge in
your own district ?
I prefer to say nothing.
22193. I suppose you have visited these shops at all times of the year, and
of the day ?
Yes, certainly.
22194. And seen the people at work under all circumstances 'i
Yes.
22195. Do you evtr see anything approaching to indecency or immodesty in
the way they work ?
I have never in my lifetime, during my three years’ e.xperience, seen any
woman dressed in such a way as to be indecent. I have seen women dressed
witli their clothes thrown back in hot weather. On one occasion I saw a
woman suckling a child ; that is the only time I have ever seen their dress so
low as that ; and as far as the men are concerned, 1 have seen the men with
their shirts open, but I have not seen them at all working without shirts, in the
sanii' way as I constantly and daily see them in the ironworks.
22196. Have you anything you would like to say as to the general conditions
under w hich the work is carried on, because no doubt you are w'ell acquainted
with the district ?
1 am alraid that that is more a question for the factory inspector. I have
(11.) z z 2 " not,
364
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2^st March 1889.] Mr. Morris. \^Continued.
not, as a rule, inspected tlie little cottages where they make the nails, because
they do not weigh them there, and I have tio locus standi whatever to go there,
hut 1 give my experience from the inspections I have taken.
22197. Lord Thrmg.~\ With respect to these stone weights; I understand you
to say that they do not use them for weighing for the purposes of trade ; is that
the distinction you draw ?
Yes.
22198. They do weigh with them; they use them for the purpose of weights,
hut they are not within the law, because they only use them for their own
private guidance, and not for trade ; that is the distinction you draw, is it
not ?
The clause of the Act is this (it is the 59th section of the Weights and
Measures Act of 1878). “ Where any weight, measure, ’scale, balance, steelyard,
or weighing machine is found in the possession of any person carrying on trade
within the meaning of this Act, or on the premises of any person which, whether
a building or in the open air, wdiether open or enclosed, are used for trade
witliin the meaning of this Act, such person shall be deemed for the purposes
of this Act, until the contrary is proved, to have such weight, measure, scale,
balance, steelyard, or weighing machine in his possession for use for trade.” It
is not within the term “ use for trade,” because the term “ use for trade ” means
that a pa}ment, depends upon the return of that weight, either in labour or in ■
money ; and there would he no chance for a prosecution whatever, because it
would be siiown that it was only used for a guide.
22199. That says that if I' carry on any trade in my building, and these
stones are found in it, that vvould be an illegal weight ?
If would place upon them the onus of proving that such stones and weights
were not used for the purpose of trade.
22200. Then what you mean is they must prove that to the satisfaction of the
magistrates ?
That they are not used for the purpose of trade.
22201. I understand you to say that under the Act you are of opinion that
although false weights are found on j>remises used for the purposes of trade,
yet if the person who occupies those premises can prove to the satisfaction of
ithe magistrates that he intended not to use them for the purpose of trade, you
cannot convict him ?
Certainly.
22202. Chairman?^ This case you mentioned uas a case where the men were
makin2 nails in the same shop as the man who was buying them, and the men
used these light weights themselves merely for their own guidance, and the
buyer did not use them at all ?
Not at all.
22203. Lord Thring?\ How can a man j)rove it except by his own words ;
he can only swear that he does not use them for the purpose of trade ?
1 think iie can bring the man he sells the nails to to give evidence that he
has paid him on the return of his own weighing machine.
22204. Would you yourself think it credible that if I keep articles looking •
like w'eights, and I carry on a trade, I never use them for the purpose of trade.
He has another weighing machine, of course ?
As a rule, he has a weighing machine of some kind or other. If it is a beam
machine ; it is one that has not been seen to for years.
22205. Supposing an enactment were made that it^should be illegal to have
improper weights on any premises used for purposes of trade, then again you
would have the difficulty of showing that they were weights at all?
Certainly; I should have difficulty in proving that.
22206. Therefore the enactment would practically be useless?
Yes, it would be useless.
22207. That
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
3 G 5
21s^ March 1889.]
Mr. Mouius.
\_Cnntinucd.
22207. That the case of what I understand you to describe as light weights ;
supposing that the mere fact of light weights being on the premises, if those
premises were used for purposes of trade, should ipso facto be taken to afford a
presumption that they were used for purposes of trade ; would that be of any
avail ?
There would be a great difficulty, I think, in adding such a section to an Act,
because it would have to apply all over England, and, if so, all those second-
liand dealers who buy and sell by weight, and even the shop people who have
weights on their premises, if they had these weights at all on their premises,
would be liable to a proseeution, thougii they did not use such weights for a
return, I fear would be impracticable.
22208. Earl of Derby.'] Would it not be considered a hardship by the work-
men if they were not allowed to use these weights ?
Yes, because they would be compelled to go to a eonsiderable outlay to get
proper scales and weights if they were not allowed to adopt this guide ; but if
there was an intermediate weighing-machine, as I suggest, it would save them
using these guides.
22209. Lord Thriny.] Then T will take your suggestion of the intermediate
weighing-machine. There would, of course, be no diffieulty in requiring the
local authorities to put up an intermediate weighing-machine ; but I under-
stand you to say that the law must go to this extent, that the nails and chains
shall be weighed at that machine, whether the makers of those nails and chains
wish it or not ?
It was simply a hint thrown out.
22210. But what I want to know is, do you think that the putting up of these
intermediate machines, without the subsequent eompulsory clause, would be of
any good ?
I certainly think it would assist the small nail and rivet manufacturers.
22211. If you gave the county councils power to put up these machines, and
to charge a moderate fee for them, that would be a great advantage, you think,
without any further compulsory enactment ?
Yes.
22212. Then with respect to the trucking, can you suggest any amendment
of the Truck Act which would be of any avail to prevent it ?
I am afraid I can see no way out of it ; I have tried to assist the inspector of
factories to get evidence togetlier ; but we cannot get the workpeople to give
evidence.
22213. Would increase in penalties be of any avail ?
I do not think so. The magistrates of the Old Hill division have very
thoroughly supported the inspector, and have inflicted substantial fines.
22214. Earl of Derby.] I suppose with legard to the Truck Act it is
impossible to extend it so far as to prevent the fogger’s brother, or other
relatives of an employer, from keeping a truck shop ; a shop where provisions
are supplied ?
I cannot tell.
22215. Because if the men are made to understand by any employer that they
are expected to deal at a certain shop, you have no effectual means of preventing
that, have you ?
I suppose not.
22216. Does the practice of truck prevail with regard toother articles besides
provisions r
I know of none, except it may possibly be in the sale of breezes.
22217. I think I gather, as the general effect of your evidence, that the use of
these irregular and defective weights was in many cases, perhaps in most cases,
due rather to ignorance and carelessness than to any intentional fraud ?
( 11 .) z z 3
The
366
MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
21s^ ^iavch 1889. J JVlr. jVIoiiRis. ^Conlinued,
The weights were used by those who used them as a guide, and whatever
their ignorance might be in using them, they have been told repeatedly in my
inspections how absui’d it is to rest U()on the return of such weights as a guide.
2221^. But tiity continue in many cases, if I understand you rightly, to use
these weights, not necessarily with any intention of fraud, but from old habit ?
From old habit.
2221 Q. And because they are too ignorant to understand the inconvenience ?
Yes ■
222 20. Lord Clifford of Chudle.igh 7 \ Am I right in understanding tliat these
light weights are found on the same premises where nails are bought and sold ?
I have only found them on one occasion on the same premises.
22221 . As a general rule the light weights are in one of the premises and the
sale takes place in another ?
The light weights are in the smalf hovels of the makers, and the transaction
of sale goes on, I daresay, half a mile away, at the house or the warehouse of
the buyer.
22222. But at the warehouses the light weights are not found?
No.
22223. What I meant by saying “ not found in the warehouses,” was that
they are not found in warehouses, and the contention made that they are used
there only for purposes not connected with trade ?
Certainly, as a guide. In the case I mentioned, which was the only case I
know of, a man who buys nails and rivets himself, having such weights on his
premises, they were used then on another part of his premises as a guide.
22224. Of that you found only one case ?
Only one case ; there may be others.
22225. Lord Monkswell.'] I understand you to say they are misleading if
they are used as a guide. It does not matter what weight is put upon these
stones if they are used to see whether the weight of nails returned corresponds
with the weight of iron sent. A man might have a great deal of iron lying
about; he vould only know by weighing the iron in the first place, and ihe
nails in the second place, whether he was sending back to the man who gave
him the iron, the proper weight of nails ; he might have had iron fi’om half-a-
doztn different people, and he miglit make a note at the time that he had re-
ceived so much from a certain person, and the only means by which he could
send back the proper weight of nails would be by weighing them against these
stones ?
I am afraid 1 must have given you a misunderstanding of my meaning. 1
have represented that the error of using these weights was to weigh the finished
goods before taking them to the person who bought the finished goods from
him, because if he uses light weights, of a necessity the weights will appear to
be more to him.
22226. He may conceive, you mean, that he is being cheated when he is not r
Yes.
22227. As to this bar that you found under the weighing-machine, would
you not, by close investigation, by looking at that machine, be able to tell that
there was some kind of fastening underneath it ?
I did not see anything unusual with the machine, it being correct in balanc-
ing, and also turning the maximum load properly, 1 did not turn it over for
inspection.
22228. But in one case you saw the bar underneath, you say ?
I saw the difference in the weight, and then I turned the macliine over to see
what caused it to be out of order.
22229. Then did you see anything underneath the machine different from
usual ?
Yes ; tv'o hooks.
22230. Then,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
367
2\st March 1889.]
Mr. Moiuiis.
\_Cuntinued.
22230. Then, in future, you will look underneath to see if there is anything
fastened on there ?
Yes; since I found that I have always turned them over.
22231. Might it not he well to render the first, the aceelerating weighing-
machine, illegal ?
The inspeetors of England and the inspectors of Germany are united in their
viewo 1 went to Germany last autumn, with an introduction from the
Standards Department of the Board of Trade, to investigate the whole of the
weighing in Germany, and afterwards reported to the Board of Trade;
and we are all united in the view that there is no form of machine more valu-
able for selling purposes, because the seller is not likely to overload the machine
itself ; and if the machine is made illegal, that will do away with the machine
both in selling and in buying.
22232. Chairman^] Do you think that the workpeople would avail themselves
of these intermediate weighing-machines if they were set up as you suggest ?
1 think they may be influenced to do so.
22233. Would it not put them to considerable expense and trouble ?
If the machines were placed in the centre of the lacality they would pass
them on the way to take their goods, and then they might weigh them in the
same wav that a load of coals is weighed before being delivered to a house, and
take the ticket.
22234. That would not affect the men working in the shop of the master '?
No, that would be the difficulty.
22235. I should gather from you that the people tliemselves know very weB
that these pebbles and the light weights that they use are not accurate ?
They xSeem very ignorant, whatever is said to them, and they seem to consider
that they are accurate.
22236. But they use them merely for their own guidance?
For their own guidance.
22237. To enable them to tell, I suppose, that they are not charged too much
waste, and so on ?
Possibly.
22238. WTiat are the highest penalties that are inflicted?
Five pound the first offence.
22239. Do vou think that is sufficient ?
I would rather see it left to the discretion of the magistrates to give more.
In regard to the case of the iron bar, I may say that Mr. Bassano was the chair-
man of the bench on that occasion, and he expressed a very strong wish that he
could have given a very much heavier penalty; but on one or two occasions
I have given the magistrates the opportunit\ , because I have taken three
summonses out, and then they can give 5 1. on each case.
22240. 1 suppose when these light weights are found in the shop, in the pro-
secution the onus of proof would lie on that man to show that he never used
them except as guides r
Yes.
22241. Failing his being able to prove that, the magistrate would assume
them to be used for trade purposes ?
Yes.
22242. They would assume them to be used for trade unless it were proved
to the contrary ?
Yes.
22243. Lord MonkswelLI What do you think the penalty should have been
in the case you have mentioned ?
I think that 20 i. or even 50 1. would not have been too much.
( 11 .)
z z 4
22244. You
368
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
21 si March 1889.]
Mr. Morris.
[ Continued.
22244. ^ would be in favour of altering the law so as to enable the magis-
trates to inflict a higher penalty ?
The Bill now going through tlie House of Commons makes the penalty less.
22 245. You do not approve of that ?
No.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. HUGH RICJHARD KEB, is called in, and, having been sworn, is
Examined, as follows :
22246. Chairman.~\ What are you ?
I am a surgeon ; certifying surgeon to the district of Halesowen, Old Hill,
and Bowley.
22247. What is your district called?
It is the Old Mill and Halesowen district ; and I was late medical officer of
health for the parish of Rowley Regis.
22248. What places that we have been inquiring into are included in this
parish of Rowley Regis ?
Cradley Heath and Rowley.
22249. What are your duties as certifying surgeon?
I have to visit the different works to certify the lads and the gilds that are
employed there in the different factories round about under the Factory
Act.
22250. How long have you been in that position ?
Eight years.
22251. And for how long were you medical officer of health ?
Five years, rather more I think, I am not quite sure, about five years ; I
have been in the district practising for 17 years, first of all at Cradley Heath
when I was living at Old Hill ; now I live at Halesowen.
22252. We have had a great deal of evidence as to some of the work
being too heavy for women and children ; is that the case in your opinion ?
Unquestionably ; 1 have found amongst women, especially those that have
been working at heavy work, that they are very liable to misplacements of the
womb and to rupture, and also amongst married women I find they are very
liable to miscarriages, as they very frequently go on working when they are in
the family way.
22253. What kind of work do you consider particularly injurious to them?
Particularly the Oliver and the heavy chains.
22254. Do you consider the use of the oliver in itself particularly in-
jurious ?
I do, to women ; I do not think that women ought to use it all.
22255. Even when employed for cutting comparatively light iron, or doing
light work ?
I have no hesitation in saying that the oliver is injurious to women under
any circumstances; they ought not to use it. The light well-balanced oliver,
such as used for hobnails, would be in a degree less injurious than the heavier
oliver, but even these, in my opinion, are injurious, especially to married
women. 1 might explain that women are much more liable to misplacements
of their internal organs than men. The muscular wall of the abdomen is not
so strong as that in the male. This is especially the case in married women
who have borne children, and therefore they are much more liable to misplace-
ments of various kinds from the use of anything that brings their legs into
excessive or hard work.
22256. And you think that the evil is so serious that they ought to be pro-
hibited from using the oliver at ail ?
I do, distinctly.
22257. Does
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
3 G 9
21.?; March 1889.] Mr. Keu. [Continued.
22257. ^oes that apply to female children also?
I do think so, certainly.
22258. And as to male children ?
As to male children, I have not noticed anything; at all events it has not
■come under my knowledge that thc're are any injurious effects with regard to
male children.
22259. think that women ought not to he allowed to work iron
beyond a certain size and thickness, as has been suggested before us?
I do, distinctly.
22260. Have you any idea as to where you would draw the line ?
I have not sufficient knowledge of the wok to give an opinion about that ; I
could only speak of that as heavy labour generally.
22261. Now with regard to the hours of wok ; do you think that they are
too long for females and children ?
I think where they come under the Factory Act they are all right; but
there are a certain class of workers, the staffers and w’ives, \'ho do not come
under the Act, and in their case, I think, the overwork is very injurious. They
frequently work at night.
22262. Do you find them working very late at night?
I have frequently seen it. I am out, of course, at all hours, and I see the
fires going ; people v orkin these cottages at all hours.
22263. Then would you suggest that all these domestic workshops should be
put under the same regulations as the factoiies?
I would, most certainly ; it is a most important thing. It has a disastrous
effect, physically, amongst the class of workers who do work like that; you see
a poor shrivelled-np miserable-looking class of people, and I think it is a great
deal due to those irregular hours of work, and irregular hours of sleep.
22264. Do you think that children are sent to work under age ?
I do not think so ; the Faetory Act is working very satisfactorily ; there is
not much violation in that direction.
22265. Do you consider that these people suffer from insufficient food r
I think they are very badly fed.
22266. Considering the heavy work which they have to do ?
Yes, very badly fed. I think a great deal of that is due to supreme
ignorance on the jrart of the women, who really do not know how to provide for
their husbands and children ; they have been in the habit of going into the
nail shop early in life, they have no domestic training, and they really do not
know how to cook or how to provide for themselves cheaply and properly; they
are supremel}^ ignorant as to the character of food aud the way of cookintr, in a
very large number of instances.
22267. They spend their time working in the chain shop instead of attending
to household matters ?
Yes. The pride of the girls, in a large number of cases, is to get into the
nail shop as soon as pcssil)le. In fact I know a great many instances, but
one special instance came under my knowledge lately, where a girl was taken
out of a nail shop by a curate in my own parish, who employed her as a
domestic servant for twelve or eighteen months. She was made very happy and
comfortable ; left him simply because she said she must go back to the nail
shop, as she preferred it.
22268. She preferred the liberty ?
Preferred the liberty ; that is just the case,
22269. You have nothing to do of course with these domestic workshops ?
No, nothing whatever; 1 have no authority there.
22270. We have had in evidence a description of shops that appear to
(ID) 3 A consist
370
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2\st March 1889.]
Mr. Kek.
^Continued.
consist really of a number of shops ; that, is to say, three or four or five small
shops, accommodating two or three peivons eaci), but all togi-ther in the same
yard ; those cases would come under tlie Factory and Workshop Act, would
they not ?
Ihey vould come under the Workshop Act, but not under the Factory Act,
unless there was steam ; I am not called upon except where they employ steam ;
I have no supervision whatever, except where steam is employed.
2227*. Then are these factories that you have knowledge of in a satisfactory
condition ?
Yes, the factories, I think, in almost every instance are very veil
conducted.
22272. Properly drained and ventilated, and so on ?
I think the factories are.
22273. What about the shops ?
The shops in some in some instances are very bad indeed.
22274. The shojjs then come under you ?
They tjnly come under my observation from my ordinary practice, and from
my experience as medical officer of health.
22275. We should be very glad to hear from you anything that you can
tell us r
Speaking of time past, I may say that the sanitary condition of Rowley
was very very bad ; but since it has come under the local authority the
condition has undoubtedly improved, and the condition of the various private
workshops is now very different from what it then was. But that does not
apply to Halesowen. Halesawen is under a rural sanitary authority, and 1 am
sorry to say not a \ ery active authority, the Stourbridge Guardians ; and the
condition of things is very bad indeed, as bad as can be. Until quite recently
in the town of Halesowen itself, it was not an uncommon thing to go down the
.street and see, on a hot summer day, half a dozen heaps of manure that had
been emptied out of cesspools, in the middle of the street. Within the last
two years this has been partially remedied. In the town of Halesowen
itself now the cesspf)ols are emptied by contract, and this has to be
done during certain hours, between eight o’clock at night, I think, and
eight o’clock in the morning ; but curiously enough, within the actual town
of Halesowen this law does not apply. That is to say, Halesowen itself
is divided into the townships of Halesowen and Hasbury, Hasbury being
quite half of Halesowen and really part and parcel of the town, and
in the township of Hasbury this law does not apply, and there still we see
these heaps of manure emptied at all times. Within a few weeks ago I was
passing a large spike nail place right in the thick of the tow’nship surrounded by
houses, and I saw 1 suppose at least three tons of the most sinking manure
immediately opposite the door of this spike nail place, which contains, I should
think, ten or fifteen fires. People, girls and men, were at work at these various
fires, and this manure stinking outside. As far as I recollect it was about twelve
o’clock in the day. That is only one instance of many that I have seen. A few'
days ago I was in a poor p; rson’s house, and I went thremgh into the yard just
to inspect. There was a row of three houses, and I knew that they had nail
shops behind, and I found a row of three nail shops like that {dtscribiug it)
running up from the houses, and the only convenience they had for
the who'e three houses was one solitary privy, with a dilapidated door
and a cesspool at the side, stinking tremendously and without
any cover. 'Hiis was immediately opposite the door of one of these
nail shops, all of them facing towards this privy. On inquiry I found
that, as a matter of fact, there was only one of the nail shops being used,
but, of course, that only happened on account of the other tenants I’or the
time being not using them; but in that one nail shop 1 think there were a
coui)le of women and one man accustomed to work. 1 inquired whether there
was any other privy. I was told no, that this one privy accommonated the
whole
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
371
2\.st March 1889.]
Mr. Kek.
[ Continued.
whole of lluse three houses. One of the cottages contains a family, I suppose,
of eight or nine, one grown-np son, ami I think two or three boys and girls.
The second, a man and his wife, and several children. 1 do not know how
many inmates there are in the third house, but, all three families use the one
privy, which is in constant use.
22276. \\ ould such a ease as that be very exceptional ?
No, I have no hesitation in saying that it. was a very common thing, in
the parish of Rowley Regis snch a condition of things has been, to a
large extent, remedied. During my own time I got a very large number of
new closets built upon a proper construction, and in every case when I found
it bad I got the order to have it pulled down and a proper one erected ; and I
fancy that that condition of things now hardly exists at Rowley; but I have no
hesitation in saying that it does very largely in Halesowen. I cannot speak now
so confidently about Cradley, because I do not go there so often, but it does
very largely exist in Halesow'en.
22277. And the workshops themselves, are they sufficiently ventilated, and is
there enough light and air, and so on ?
In some insfances they are not, in some instances ihey are ; the nail shops
are pretty good.
22278. Is there any difficulty in proper drainage owing to subsidences?
No; til ere are no mining ofierations in Halesowen, and there is really no
difficidty in drainage. It naturally wmuld be a very easily drained place, and it
is an exceedingly healthy town ; that is to say, it is very healthily situated, and
has natural capabilities of drainage.
22279. Is there much disease that you attribute to the unsanitary condition ?
There is in the poorer parts of the town, unquestionably.
22280. Lord Thr'nig.~\ You are aware that it is the duty of a rural sanitary
authority to cure these evils as much as of an urban authority ?
Yes.
‘ 22 -z' 6 \ . therefore, the fact that the Stourbridge guardians do not do
it, and that the Local Board of Rowley do do it, merely means that the one body
do their duty and the othei’ do not ?
Yes, tliat is the case, undoubtedly.
22282. 1 mean the law can do nothing further?
The rural local authority have not the [lOwer that an urban local authority
have.
22283. 1 am quite aware of that; but you are aware that they have ample
powers, and it is their duty to keep their district fully drained, and remove all
nuisances; it is indeed as much their duty if they are a rural authority as it
w ould be if they were urban ones r
Yes, that is the case.
21:284 Therefore so far as you have described it, the law has done all that it
can. And you are also awmre, I suppose, that a rural sanitary authority may
apj)ly for urban powers if they want them ?
Ves.
22285. I it to come out cleatly that the law does not require amend-
ment, but the local authorities ?
1 do not think the law can do anything Ixyond this : that it would be a good
thing if rural sanitary authorities in every case were put on the same footing as
urban sanitary authorities.
22286. Chairman.^ In what way ?
For instance, here is a ureat evil which I have not mentioned, and that is
with regai d to slaughter-houses ; the rural sanitary authority has no power over
them at all.
( 11 .)
22287. Lord
3 A 2
3/2
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
215? March 1889.] Mr. Ker. \_Continued.
22 - 287 . Lord Thring.~\ But they can acquire it by asking the Local Govern-
ment Board to give them the urban powers with respect to offensive trades ?
But in a very large number of cases tliey will not do so; that is the
difficulty.
222S8. What do these people live upon ; you say that the mothers do not
understand cooking, do not understand how to make the most of their food ;
what do the poorer people practically live on ; what is their food ?
1 hardly know. I think they live in a nondescript sort of wav. They eat a
great deal of meat.
22289. They do eat meat -
Yes, they do eat meat.
22290. 1 und( rstood one of the witnesses to say that she never ate meat ?
That may be the case in some instances ; but there is a great deal of meat
consumed.
22291. You know that?
I do know it as a fact.
22292. But what do they live on, bread and bacon ?
Bread and bacon is a very favourite thing. Pigs they generally keep.
22293. 1 do not quite see why they are underfed ; they may be badly fed in
the sense that their food may be badly cooked, but if they can get meat and
pork I cannot quite see how they can be underfed ?
I do not think the nailmakers can afford to buy meat. A great many of the
chainmakers get larger earnings, but I do not think the nailmakers get much
meat.
22294. I was asking you, with respect to the poorer classes of nailmakers,
wlieiher yon could tell me what they fed upon ?
I really cannot.
22295. But Vvith lespect to the poorer classes of chainmakers you can ?
Yes, I have seen more of tlie chainmakers; I have seen more of the chain-
makers in Cradlcy Heath and round there.
22206. And do I understand you that though their food is tolerably adequate
in quantity, if I may use such a phrase, it is not in quality?
Yes; they are very apt to spend their wages in the earlier part of the week
and pinch in the latter part of the week.
22297. Do they drink much ?
1 do not think so.
22298. What do you mean by saying that they spent their wages in the
earlier part ol the week ?
It is not an uncommon thing for them to indulge considerably in meat in the
eai lier part of the week.
22299. Earl of Derhy?^ I think you said you would htive all workshops pul
under the same regulations as factories ?
Yes.
22300. Even in the case of a workshop where a man and his own family weie,
employed ?
1 think so.
22301. Are there not a great number of these workshops scattered up and
down ?
A very great number ; very few houses without them.
22302. Would it be possible to enforce the regulations of the Factory Act,
to have inspectors enough to see that such rules were not violated ?
I bo not think that there would be much difficulty.
22303. For
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
373
2\st March 1889.]
Mr. Kek.
\_C(mtinued.
22303. For instance, that they should not work after a certain hour ?
Unite so.
22304. In the case of a large factory where many hands are employed it is
very easy to enforce that rule; but where a man and his wife and children are
alone concerned, do you think it would be possible to ascertain exactly how
long they were at work?
There would be difticulties, undoubtedly ; but the certifying surgeon would
be able to help considerably in that way, because he often sees these things
going on ; I often do ; and if it were against the law I could very readily let
the inspector of factories know, who would, of course, keep a watch and come
down upon them.
22305. In short, you think that it would be well that a law should be laid
down upon this point, although it may not, in every case, be possible to
enforce it ?
I do think so.
22306. \jdxiS. Clifford of Chtidleigh 7 \ Do you find children working late at
night to a great extent ?
1 cannot sav that 1 have ever found children working late at nio-ht.
22307. Cbiefi\' growm-up people ?
Chiefiy the stallers and their wives.
2 2308. Do you suppose that many of them are [)eople who have other em-
ployments during the day-time?
I am afraid I cannot answer that cpiestion ; I cannot say that I can bring
forward any case that I am certain about.
2230Q. Lord Monkswelld] Is there any over-crowding in your district which
is injurious to health ?
Unquestionably.
22310. Not enough cubic space of air ?
22311. And the windows are very often shut?
Yes, they very often are shut; very frequently I have to break the window’s
to get sufficient ventilation.
22312. And they are shut all night ; in many cases they cannot open ?
In many cases they cannot. The very smalt rooms are frequently in a
very insanitary condition, from the same reason, that the rural sanitary au-
thority does not compel the landlords to cleanse them properly; they are not
whitewashed or kept clean.
22313. I suppose you would consider over-crowding undesirable from the
point of view of decency ?
Yes, certainly.
22313*. Do you find that there is much outbreak of typhoid fever?
Not in my immediate district ; but in Cradley there has been a recent out-
break of typhoid lever.
22314. Is that common?
Typhoid is very common, unquestionably, and it is common in Halesowen ;
but we do not happen to have had an outbreak there for a couple of years.
22315. Much more common than it ought to be ?
Much more common.
22316. I suppose that is principally due to defective drainage, and has less
to do with defective food ?
I think it has been due to the defective drainage and the defective water
supply ; the two things very frequently tally. There are surface wells, and
these" surface wells become contaminated by the surface drainage.
( 11 .)
3^3
22317. You
374
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2\st March 1889.] Mr. Ker. \_Continued.
22317 You do not tliink that there is such a low state of healih, owing to
tlie people t>eiiig insufficiently fed, that the disease makes more pro-rress tlian
otherwise it would?
Bad feeding, injudicious feeding, unquestionably makes them more liai)le to
anything of the kind.
22318. I su|)pose you would say that the children at all events who are
employed sometimes cannot get as much to eat as they want r
'I hat is the case.
22319. And even of the poorest food ?
E\en of the poorest food.
22320. Is the population of Halesowen decreasing in number ?
Increasing very rapidly.
22321. Do people come into the district, or is that a natural increase in the
population r
I think it is both, partly people coming into the district, but more the
natural increase.
22322. I suppose Halesowen is rather in a thriving state compared with other
districts, if |)eople conie into it ?
1 do not think Halesowen compares badly with the neighbouring districts.
It has been in a very depressed state, but I think the condition of things
there is better than it was.
22323. Belter than Cradley Heath ?
No, 1 s’ ould hardly say it is better than Cradley Heath. There is more
diversity (T manufacture at Cradley Heath than at Halesowen, but Halesowen
has the advantage of a rural population as well as a manufacturing one.
22324. I supimse you could not tell whether there is emigration to Cradley
Heath ; having leit that place you could not tell that r
I cannot say; my impression is that the population is still increasing.
22325. Whether from immigration or natural increase vou cannot say ?
No.
22326. Earl of Aherdeen?\ Do you find that the local sanitary authorities
do not fully exercise their pov ers ?
They do not.
22327. Lord Hiring.^ You say that these people work at night, and in answer
to Lord Clifford you said something else on that point. We were told that the
labouring population, that is to say, the rural population, very often worked
by day at farm labour and then worked by night at nailmaking, might it
not be that these late fires which you see kept up arise from that cause ?
I think it is (piite likely. I know that such is the case, but 1 am not positive
as to the people who work ; 1 see these fires going.
22328. Do you not see that the Factory Act or any Regulation of Labour Act
would hardly apply, because they do out of-do u’ farm wmrk in the daytime, and
then, as I understand, they spend their late evenings in making nails ; they do
not make nails all day and night?
But I have often seen fires going at one and two o’clock in the morning.
22329. Then you would prohibit any night labour?
I would. 1 do not think it is piossible to kee[) people in health if they work
day and night.
22330. Chairman.'] Have ymu any idea whether the people themselves work-
ing in these small domestic workshops would like to have L.e provisions of the
Factory and Workshops Act applied to them?
I cannot answer that question ; but I cannot help thinking that in the end it
would be an advantage to them.
22331. You
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
375
2lst March 1889.] M r. Ker. IContmued.
2 -2331. You spoke just now about over crowding ; you mean over-crowding in
the dwelling-houses ?
Yes.
2233'2. Not in the factories ?
No, I mean in the liouses.
22333. I advcd you about the working of women and children in these
domestic workshoj)S; do you think that the work is injurious to the men ; that
they work too long hours ?
I do not think so, except these stallers where they work at night.
22334. In that case you do think it injurious?
1 think it is injurious.
22335. But the stallers do not work at night more than anybody else, do
they ;
1 believe so.
22336. It is this system of stalling, letting out of stalls, which prevents the
shops coming under the Act at all, is it not I
I believe that is the case.
22337. That is to say, 10 < r 20 men might be working in one shop, and
if they hired their own stalls that shop would not come under the Factory
Act ?
1 believe that that is the case.
22338. Do you know anything about this trucking that has been
spoken of?
Yes, 1 have seen a good deal of it ; there is no doubt that it is carried on
very extensively\
22339. Can you suggest any way in which it might be checked ?
If I were to suggest, I should say that no employer ought to be allowed to
keep a provision shop or a beershop ; it ought not to he possible for him to do
so. It is productive of a considerable amount of drunkenness. A large number
of employers or foremen do keep public-houses, and it is a well-known fact ; I
know it from my ow n patients, that a man knows that he has no chance of
getting a good job under that foreman or em()loyer, if he happens to he an em-
ployer, unless he is a Irequenter of his public-house.
22340. Loid Thrlng.~\ You do not know whether the great evil of these
public-houses being kept by foremen has ever been brought under the attention
of the licensing magistrates ?
I do not know.
22341. Because you are aware, of course, that they may refuse the license
if they like ?
1 am aware of that, but 1 on'y know that it exists, and exists very largely,
and also the matter of shops directly or indirectly kept.
22342. Shops, perhaps, we cannot prev ent ; but you never heard of the
objection being raised before the magistiate, that in effect a man was keeping a
public-house under the truck system ?
No, I have not.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. benjamin THOMPSON, is called in, and having been sworn ;
is Examined, as follows ;
2234 1. Chairman.^ Are you the sanitary officer for Cradley Heath?
For Crafiley proper.
22344. Is that an urban or rural district ?
Rural district.
( 11 .;
3 A 4
22345. What
3/6
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
21s# March 1889.]
Mr. Thompson.
[ Continved.
•22345. What is the district?
Tlie Rural Sanitary Authority of the Stourbridge Union.
22346. Is Cradley Heath in the distiict ?
Ko.
22347. Are there any other places in the district that have been mentioned
before the Committee ; do you know, or Cradley only r
Cradley only.
22348. How long have you been sanitary officer ?
About three years.
22349. is the general sanitary condition of Cradley?
The general sanitary condition of‘ Cradley is not in a bad state; Cradlev
prr-per.
22350. What do you mean by Cradley proper ?
Cradley Heath is under the Rowley Local Board, while Cradley is under the
Stourbridge Rural Authority. The area of Cradley is about 7/7 acres, with a
population of about . 5 , 500 . 1 here are about 3 | miles of good drainage iii the
streets. Large sanitary pipes are laid along the streets to convev slop-water
from the bouses.
22351. Is Anvil-y^ard in Cradley #
Anvil-yard is in Cradley.
22352-3* 1^0 you consider the sanitary condition of Anvil-yard satisfactory?
It is not bad now.
22354. When you say it is not had now ; since when has it improved ?
Within this last two or three months.
22355. You say that till within the last two or three months it was in a bad
condition ?
Yes ; there weie certain drains that were stopped up. I spoke to the pro-
perty owner on several occasions about the matter ; he was rather lax in attend-
mg to it; ultimately 1 served a notice upon him and got the work done.
22356. When did you serve the notice on him ?
Just before Mr. Oi am came.
22357. Do you know when that was ?
I am not in possession of the date ; I think it was in January.
22358. And what was done then ?
The old drains were opened, and new ones were made, and everything is
connected with the main drain.
22359. And you consider the present condition quite satisfactory ?
Quite satisfactory. The medical officer of health, l)i'. Turner, has visited the
place several times and sugijested certain work to be done, which has been
cariied out, and Joseph Hingley, Esq., has held the post of surveyor for 15 years.
During that term he has sacrificed a great deal of time in trying to improve
the condition of Cradley. That same gentleman is a member of the sanitary
authority.
22360. I do not quite understand what you mean ; do you mean that Mr.
Hingley has been satisfied with the general condition of Cradley ?
He has nor been sati-fied altogether.
22361. At any rate, I take it from you that you consider that Cradley in
genet al, and this particular place. Anvil-yard, are now in a thoroughly satisfac-
tory sanitary condition ?
Quite so. Should Mr. Hingley find any sanitary defect which sometimes
escapes my notice, he very quickly calls my attention to it.
22362. I
xJ
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
377
March 1889.] Mr. Thompson. [^Continued
22362. Is there much typhoid fever in Cradley ?
Allow me to say that Cradley proper is one of the healthiest spots in the
Black Country.
22363. Answer my question first ; is there much typhoid fever ?
No, there is none.
22364. Has there ever been any within your knowledge ?
Yes, a great deal of it.
22365. To what do you attribute that r
To a polluted public well ; about 80 houses were dependent upon it for drink-
ing purposes. The Sanitary Authority paid a certain amount yearly to keep
the pumps in proper repair. At various times samples of the water have been
tested and found good. In November 1888 there were about 20 cases of
typhoid broke out ; suspicion then rested upon this well. Myself and Dr. Turner,
the medical officer of health, had put forth every effort to try to ascertain its
cause. A sample of the water was again tested, and found to contain a large
quantity of organic matter.
22366. What happened?
The well was stopped. The medical officer of health ordere ! me at once to
take off the handles of the pumps,
22367. The well was stopped and the typhoid ceased ?
Yes, it ceased there.
22368. And you attribute the ty^phoid entirely to the well ?
Quite so.
22369. Is there much fever of any other kind in Cradley r
There is none.
22370. None now?
N(J.
22371. Has there ever been any?
It is very rare that any epidemic visits Cradley.
22372. And you consider Cradley remarkably free from diseases ?
Quite so.
22373. Does it compare favourably in that respect with other places in the
neighbourhood ?
That can be borne out by Dr. Turner, the medical officer of health, and also
the parish doctor, Dr. Thompson.
22374. Do you say it is a more healthy place than other places in the neigh-
bourhood ?
It is considered so.
22375. I do not ask whether it is considered so, but whether you consider it
so ?
Yes ; the death-rate proves it.
22376. Is there any difficulty in draining Cradley, owing to subsidences, or
anything of that kind ?
Cradley is well drained.
22377. I asked you if there is any difficulty in draining it owing to sub-
sidences ?
There would be a difficulty ; Cradley is surrounded by mining operations.
22378. What do you mean by “ there would be a difficulty ; ” do you mean
that there is a difficulty ?
There will be a difficulty. New mines have been opened recently. We cannot
tell what will be the consequence, as the earth is now beginning to subside.
22379. In draining it properly ?
Yes.
(11.) 3B
22380. But
3/8
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
21s# March 1889.] Mr. Thompson. [Continued.
22380. But at the syme time you say it is properly drained ?
Yes.
22381. You have overcome the difficulty r
Th( re was no difficulty when the present drains were laid down ; and by the
geographical position of Cradley no sewage matter could possibly remain. The
sewers are constantly being flushed by springs of water at various points flowing
into them. °
22382. Bow did you overcome the difficulty?
By its geographical position. Nothing of an insanitary nature can stop really
in Cradley. Then there is this important fact with respect to the drainage in
Cradley ; there are a number of springs constantly flowing, and those springs
go into the sewers, constantly flushing them.
22383. Do you know at all how many cases of typhoid occurred .-
About 40 .
22384. Altogether !
Altogether.
22385. Do you know anything of the sanitary condition of the workshops?
es.
22386. Du you consider them very good ?
Some are not good, some are good.
22387. Now in what way are those that are bad defective ?
The roofs are very low, and yet they are fairly ventilated.
22388. Is there nothing the matter with the drainage?
No, nothing at all the matter with the drainage with respect to the workshops.
22389. Lord Thring.'] Did you hear the witness who told us that the rural
sanitarv authority does not do its duty ?
Yes."
22390. You do not agree with him at all ?
The sanitary authority in Stourbridge Union have always been willing to
help me in any matter I applied for.
22391. I asked you whether you agreed with the witness that they did not
do their duty ; not whether they helped you
I have found them do their duty.
22392. You do not agiee with him then. Then with respect to this out-
brtak of tyjihoid ; when did that take place?
The first case was about May last.
22393. And when did it cease?
Lately.
22394. Then it has been “ stamped out,” as you call it, very lately r
Yes.
22395. What is the supply of water they have got now ?
Tap water supplied from the South Staffordshire Water Company.
22396. When was that laid on ?
That has been laid on within these last two or three months, since the typhoid
broke out.
22397. You had typhoid for nine months before you laid it on ?
Yes ; now and then a case, which I traced to drinking the water.
22398. But although you traced ihe typhoid to that, ymu took nine months
before you laid on proper water ?
We could not really ascertain its cause for some time.
22399. Aberdeen.^ Are not the privies in Anvil-yard of a more or less
public character ?
Yes.
22400. Have
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM,
379
2\st March 1889.]
Mr. Thompson.
[ Continued.
22400. Have they been altered in any way in the last two months?
They have.
22401. In what way r
Covered in.
22402. Is there more privacy secured than formerly r
Yes.
22403. There was not sufficient till these alterations were made r
No.
22404. Are they set apart for men and women respectively ?
Not exactly.
22405. Is there any further improvement that, to your mind, is still desirable
in that matter ?
Yes. The property owner is willing to do everything that is requisite.
22406. Is the property owner a gentleman who owns a large quantity of
property in that district, or only at that particular spot r
At that particular spot.
22407. Lord Clifford of Chudldgh.~\ When were these parish drains in the
street laid down ?
Some years ago.
22408. And are most of the houses connected with them ?
They are.
22409. Chairman.^ How many houses are there in Anvil-yard ?
Seventeen.
22410. How many people in them ?
I could not just give you the number of the people now ; most of them are
families with small children.
22411. And how many privies are there ^
There are four.
22412. Only four to the 17 houses.
Yes.
22413. Do you think that is sufficient ?
Not exactly.
22414. What would you consider sufficient ?
It is very requisite that there should be two or three more"
22415. Is the proprietor willing to make two or three more ?
I think so ; I liave spoken to him about it.
22416. Earl of Aberdeen.~\ Are there any privies other than those public
ones ; are there any private privies ?
No.
22417. Chairman.^ Who is the owner of the property ?
Mr. James Hingley (a farmer).
22418. Did you make no suggestions to him until the last two or three
months ?
Yes.
22419. He did not attend to them before ?
No.
22420. Is he a member of the board of guardians ?
He is not now ; he has been.
22421. Do they put out the contents of the ashpits and cesspools into the
streets ?
Y es, they are compelled to do it.
( 11 .)
3 B 2
22422. At
380
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
'I\st March 1889.]
Mr. Thompson.
[ Continued.
22422. At what hour ?
Ten o’clock is the time in the morning, whan everything must be cleared away.
22^23. How long are they left there before being cleared away r
They are cleared away by ten o’clock.
22424. When must they be emptied out?
In the night.
22425. During the night, any time?
Yes.
Tbe Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. benjamin HINGLEY (a Member of the House of Commons), is
called ; and having been sworn ; is Examined, as follows :
2242b. Chairman^ You are Member for North Worcestershire ?
Yes, for the northern division of Worcestershire, which includes Cradley and
Halesowen .
22427. Are you engaged in the chain or nail manufacturing r
1 am engaged largely in the coal and iron trades, but the chain and anchor
making is a department of my business.
22428. Are you acquainted generally with these trades that the Committee
have been inquiring into?
Yes. i was in my younger days engaged in the nail trade also.
22429. And you know the district ?
I know the district ; 1 have lived in it all my life.
22430. Perhaps the best plan would be fur you to give the Committee what
information you wish on the subject r
So far as the chain trade is concerned; 1 suppose we are dealing almost
entirely with the small chain trade, not with the cable and large chain to any
extent except incidentally?
22431. Quite so ?
I wish to say in the first place that it is altogether erroneous to suppose that
the chain trade is a declining trade ; on the contrary, it is a grow'ing trade, and
a very important one.
22432. Do you mean the trade, including large and small?
Including large and small ; but the small chain trade is a growdng trade
employing more people from year to year and capable of doing so. With regard
to the factories, so far as the chain trade is conducted in factories, both cable-
making and small chain-making, tbe men generally have fair employment and
are paid fair wages without any violent fluctuations ; but the out-shop work of
which the Committee has heard so much is in a very different condition.
22433, What kind of wages would they earn in the factories r
In the factories at the present time the large cable-makers are earning from
8 ,9. to 12 s. a day clear money, after paying their assistants, the strikers. Tliat
is in the larger sizes. In the smaller sizes, taking the smallest size usually
made in a factory, and the medium sizes, they would earn at the present time
from 4 s. 6 r?. to 7 -?• 6 d. clear. But it must be understood that cable-making is
very heavy work, and that it would be difficult for men to work six days a
week at it ; four or five days is quite sufficient for them.
22434. As much as a man can reasonably do?
As much as they can do on an average. It depends upon the weather a good
deal; in winter they do more, in the summer they do less. In regard to the
system of out-shops, which are commonly called domestic workshops, but mis-
called domestic workshops, that is where the great difficulty arises. Now all
those people are working every one for his own hand ; they are segregated,
and
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
381
21s;; March 1889.] Mr. Hingley, m.p. ^Continued.
and therefore they are weak and defenceless ; and there is no doubt whatever
that they are taken advantage of to a very large extent.
22435. Owing to want of combination ?
Owing to want of cohesion ; union.
2243d. Then you would agree on that point with what has been said by some
of the witnesses, w^ho advocated factory work instead of work in domestic
workshops, for the reason that it enables men to combine together ?
Entirely so. These out-shop people work for employers, some of whom are
also manufacturers, but they are really warehouse-masters doing, some of them,
a large business (some do a small one) ; and the warehouse-master is not bound
by any list ; he simply employs a man for one week, or for so long as it takes
the man to work up a certain quantity of iron, and then the contract is at an
end ; there is no more work for him unless he offers the warehouse-master an
inducement, and submits to some deduction or reduction.
22437. In fact, he makes a separate bargain for every separate order?
Exactly so. The relation of employer and workman does not exist ; it is
really buyer and seller. With regard to that point, I consider that the ware-
house-master ought to be placed in the position of an employer, that he should
be compelled to post up a list of prices, and that whatever work may be given
out to be done he should pay by that list till notice of an alteration is
given.
22438. Compelled to do so by law ?
Compelled by law to post up in his warehouse the list of prices, and what-
ever work he gives out should be paid for by that list till notice of an alteration
is given ; following the same rules as we have in factories. It does not follow',
of course that lie would be under the same obligation as we are in factories, to
find a man employment and to give him notice before discharging him.
22439. you think that he ought to adhere to a fixed statement of prices
until that is changed ?
Until that is changed by proper notice. But certain evils exist in the
factories also. In some of the smaller factories they do not observe the list
price, and they do not reckon with the men in due time or regularly. I think
in the factories also they should be compelled to post the list and to pay it, and
also to furnish ever}' man with a note of his reckoning.
22440. Earl of Derby.'] That is not a legal obligation, I suppose ?
It is not a legal obligation at the present time.
22441. It is the custom ?
It is the custom in the larger factories, l)ut it is not observed in the others ; I
would make it a legal obligation.
22442. Chairman.'] These reckonings run on for a long time?
In some of the factories they run on for weeks and even for months,
advancing the men money upon theiy work, not having a clear reckoning until
the man gets out of his latitude altogether.
22443. He does not know how it stands, you mean?
He becomes confused, and does not know how it stands. I consider that
both in factories and in warehouses every employer ought to give to the work-
man a note of his reckoning, with the weight, the price, and the total value, and
showing the cash payment.
22444. Fortnightly?
Every reckoning not less than once a fortnight ; if that was done both
in the nail and chain trades, if every person had a note of his reckoning they
would know exactly w'hat they get, and be able to protect themselves.
22445. In the case of those long, unsettled reckonings, if there is a change in
prices it must be very confusing to the men, is it not ?
(11*) 3B3
It
382
MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
21s^ March 1889.]
Mr. Hingley, m.p.
[ Continued.
It is altogether very confusing ; and it is done for a certain object, namely,
that the employer may gain an advantage thereby. I also entirely agree
that so far as the out-shops are concerned, there should be a limit of sizes
which women and girls should be allowed to be employed on. They are
undoubtedly in many of the shops doing work which is altogether unfit for
women and girls, both in the nail and chain trades.
22446. Have you any limit in )our own mind w^hich you would pro])Ose ?
For chain-making they shoidd not be allewed to work rod-iron exceeding
3 - 8 ths of an inch in diameter, and nailmakers l- 4 th of an inchin diameter, or in
size ; nail rod-iron is mostly square.
22447. That you would apply to both women and children r
Women and children ?
22448. Children of both sexes ?
Yes.
22449. know what is the heaviest work that is now done by women
and children.^
I do not think that it is usual for women to make ciiains larger than 3 - 8 ths
of an inch, but it is done in some cases ; and 1 believe, in the nail
trade, they are being employed on heavy \\ ork, nmch heavier vvork than in years
past.
22450. Heavier than foi merly ?
Heavier than formerly. When I was connected with the nail trade it was
very uncommon, indeed, for any woman to make nails more than 1| or 2
inches long. Now, I believe, they make them up as high as six, eight, and
even 20-inch in exceptional cases.
22451. How do you account for that change?
Fierce competition, I suppose, for work from these out-shop people. I
believe it is the fact that it is not because the women themselves are very fond
of the work ; they would be very glad to be relieved from it if their husbands
could obtain sufficient employment and fair wages ; they are driven to it, in
fact, by the force of circumstances. The domestic workshop, so called, really,
in years past, was a family workshop. It is no longer a domestic workshop.
The so-called domestic workshop is the root of the whole evil. If it could be
possible to bring that work into the factories I believe the evil would not only
be abated, but there would be reasonable prosperity.
22452. Formerly the domestic workshop was a real domestic workshop ; that
is to say, members of the same family worked in it ?
\ es.
22453. But latterly they have developed into a condition of things where
there are one, or two, or three of the same family, and tw'o or three others ?
It has become now a shop in which people are hired, men, women, and
children, hired to work, and a family workshop is almost unknown, except that
in the small nail trade in Bromsgrove, and some places around Halesowen,
the family shop still exists.
1 2454. And that you consider the root of the evil
The extension of the famil)' shop has been the ruin of the trade.
72455. How would you propose to deal with that i
I consider that every family workshop should be registered, and that it should
be used for that purpose only by members of the same family residing together.
It will not do to abolish the workshop ; that would interfere so very much with
the condition of the people and their means of obtaining a livelihood that it
would be a dangerous thing to do.
22456. What would you do in the event of their hiring ?
Let them work in factories.
22457. You
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
383
2\st March WiSd.l Mr. HiNGLEY, M.P. [Continued.
22457. You would not allow them to hire in the domestic workshop ?
I \\ ould have two classes of shops, the family workshops and factories.
22458. The family workshops being for members of the family ; what do you
mean l)y members of the family?
Members of the family residing together ; tliat would be sufficient to provide
for the very small cliainmaking and the small nailmaking in the Bromsgrove
district and elsewhere.
22459. Then you would prohibit the domestic workshop in its developed form
altogether r
Altogether ; I would make them all into factories.
22460. You do not think it would be sufficient to extend the provisions of the
Factory Act to them ?
I do not.
22461. Why do you think it would not have the desired effect ; why wmuld
it not be sufficient to place the domestic workshop, in which people other than
a family are employed, under the Factory and Workshop Act?
They are already under the Workshop Act.
22462. Not in a case where their stalls are hired, are they ?
Yes. I do not understand that ; I think there is some slight misconception
on that point. All shops are under the Workshop Act, whether stalls or not.
22463. Even though the people working in them are networking directly for
the owner of the shop ?
Yes.
22464. Then how would you define your factories?
Where anyone is employed for hire. Any person that works for hire should
go in a factory.
22465. I understand you that you would approve of family workshops, but
you would not allow anybody other than the family to be employed in such a
shop ?
^j'he distinction would not be very great in any case ; if the family workshop
were registered, of course it would really come under inspection.
22466. You think it could be subjected to inspection ?
Yes.
22467. That it would be very desirable to have the hours of work regulated,
and so on ?
I think so, as to the cubic space, and the sanitary condition of it, and the
hours of work ; but the hours of work would require to be varied ; you could
not make them so rigid as in the factory.
22468. C(juld that be done practically ?
Yes. I would allow them to work from six to six, from seven to seven, or
from eight to eight ; so that there is a rule laid down.
22469. You mean varying it according to the circumstances of the shop and
the work to be done in it ?
According to the circumstances. In a family workshop it would be very
much more convenient and acceptable to the people in the small nail trade to
work probably from seven to seven or eight to eight ; in factoi ies we have, as a
rule, as the hours of working, from six to six.
22470. Would you propose that each shop should select fur itself between
what hours they should work ?
Yes ; each shop, or each group of shops of the district, should be allowed to
work according to the circumstances. Take the small nail trade in Bromsgrove,
as to which evidence was given by Mr. Parry. It would suit people in making
that very small work, and they would rather do it, to work later at night
than they do in factories ; it would be more convenient to them to do so.
(11.) 3^4 Another
384
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2\st March 1889.] Mr. Hingley, m.p. ^Continued.
Anotlier thing we have lieard is tlmt in factories, especially in nail factories,
men, women, and girls are all employed together. I think that that ought to
be stopped. Where people are hired they should provide separate shops for
them.
22471. Why?
Of course making nails and chains is very warm work, especially in summer ;
and there is no reason on earth why they should be employed together.
22472. ’^’ou think it would be more decent and more conducive to morality
if they were separate t
1 think so.
22473. Would not that interfere with the work in any way ?
No ; until recent years, say within the last ten years, I never knew a woman
or a girl employed in a hired shop ; but men and boys only. My father was
the founder of the chain trade in the distiict 50 years ago, and w^e never had a
woman or a girl in any of our shops or factories.
22474. Do you men that women were not employed at all in making chains r
Not in factories, not for hire ; they were employed in the family workshop ;
the father and mother taught their daughters and sons to work,
22475. -And what has brought about the change in that matter ?
Some of the workmen have become small masters and have erected shops,
and employed first, men and boys, and then women and girls. It has become a
common practice now to put the girls to begin to blow the bellows ; and from
that they get on to weld the links.
22476. Would you prohibit the girls from blowing ?
I think so ; it is very hard work for them, very trying work for them, indeed ;
and it is not decent that they should be employed in the way that they are
employed. I have seen a girl, to my astonishment, stuck up in the roof
blowing bellows with her feet ; a veritable treadmill ; a treadmill under the
worst possible conditions. If such work were done by machinery in factories
it would be much more economical, and better wages would be paid to the
workers. The whole system of out-shops is a wasteful and extravagant system,
a loss of manual power, instead of using machinery, and a loss to the workers in
reference to the cost of carriage and the cost of fuel ; it all detracts from the
ultimate value of the work, and the wages are reduced in consequence.
22477. Your idea is that the work could be done in^factories more economically,
and with very much more advantage to the workmen, than in the domestic
workshop ?
That is so.
22478. But you would allow the family workshop ?
The family workshop for small nails, and probably for small chains, is almost
essential. It is not really essential for chains ; but for the very small sizes it
may, perhaps, be expedient or useful. There is one great evil in regard to the
small chain trade, and that is that the chains made in these out-shops, especially
by women and girls, are badly made, and they are not capable of standing
test.
22479. These would be the large chains, I suppose ?
The smaller chains. The chains made in out-shops as a rule are not made
for test, not made to stand test ; they are ostensibly tested, sold in the market
as being tested chains, but the certificates are fraudulent.
22480. Are the chains marked ; is there anythiug stamped on them ?
They may or may not be marked ; they should be marked with some kind of
a number or mark upon them. But it is a fact that chains made to a large
extent in the out-shops are sold as being tested chains ; certificates of test are
given for the merchant to send out either to the home buyer or to the foreign
buyer, and the certificates are really bogus, fraudulent.
22481. Who
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
385
2\st March 1889.] Mr. Hingley, m.p. \Continucd.
22481. Who makes the certificate, the merchant or the maker ?
Tlie maker ; the so-called manufacturer, the warehouse-master, or tiie small
manufacturer who sells the chains.
22482. Who sells these chains as tested, when in reality they are not tested
at all ?
They sell them as tested when they are not tested at all. I was in-^tni mental
years ago in getting a cliain cable and anchor Act passed, an Act of Parliament
for the testing of chain cables and anchors, and that Act has been amended on
two or three occasions, but still it does not include small chains.
22483. What do you mean by small chains?
It does not include chains for rigging, and for cranes or for hoisting purposes;
it only includes ground tackle, that is chain cables and anchors. One Act was
passed in 1864, another in 1871, and another in 1874. But although the Act
of Parliament does not provide for the testing of small chains, rigging chains,
and crane and hoisting chains, as a rule shipowners and buyers want tliem
tested, and call for them to be tested ; and the small chains which are made in
these out-shops are sold as being tested. There is a copy {prod^icing it) of a
certificate issued in 1883, signed James Billingham, Superintendent, and marked
with a B and a T, Avith a crown between, a Board of Trade mark ; and that
certificate was issued by a man who had no testing machine whatever.
22484. May I look at that certificate?
That {handing it in) is a copy of it ; the original was sent to the Board of
Trade.
22485. Do you say that that is not a correct certificate; perhaps you had
better read it out ?
Allow me to say that the testing of chain cables and anchors is conducted
under Act of Parliament and under the control of Lloyd’s Register of
British and Foreign Shipping. A letter was sent from Lloyd’s proving-
house with the original of this certificate to the Committee of Idoyd’s
Register, and it was said that the man who signed the certificate
acknowledged that he had not tested the chain, that he had no machine to
test the chain with, and that the certificate was really fraudulent ; and after
a good deal of correspondence had passed between the Proving House, of
wliich I am Chairman, and Lloyd's Register, and the Board of Trade, the result
of it was, that the Board of Trade said this : “ Referring to your letter of the
18th of xMarch last, relative to the issue of a certificate of test, by a manufac-
turer in your neighbourhood, who it is alleged has no testing machine, I am
directed to send you the accompanying copy of correspondence, as noted in
the margin, by which it vdll be seen that the Board of Trade have no power to
institute proceedings in the matter.” That is, the people who issued these fraud-
ulent certificates are at perfect liberty to do so, and there is no power of prevent-
ing it.
22486. No power on the part of the Board of Trade ?
No power on the part of the Board of Trade; they can only take action
when the official certificates are imitated or forged. That is an official certi-
ficate {producing one) under the Chain and Cables Act.
22487. What happens in such a case as that ; was there any prosecution in
that case ?
There cannot be any prosecution except by the buyer of the chain. If the
buyer of the chain was to prosecute any man for the fraud, he might succeed, 1
suppose. But the great evil is that these people are allowed to buy this slop-
work, and sell it as though it had been honestly and fairly tested, whereas the
certificates are fraudulent. I have been endeavouring to persuade the Board
of Trade to extend these Chain Testing Acts so as to include the smaller chains.
22488. Do you know, as a fact, whether the purchasers of these chains have
ever prosecuted ?
No, I have not known of any prosecution ; most of the buvers, 1 am afraid,
(H-) 3C “ ’ are
386
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
215^ March 1889.]
Mr. Hingley, m.p.
[ Continued.
are well acquainted with the circumstances ; they buy them at such cheap
rates that they know they are not tested,
224^9. Do ihe}^ go abroad mostly ?
They mostly go abroad.
22490. And your suggestion, I understand, is that the Act should be applied
to these small chains, in which case the Board of Trade would have power to
prosecute ?
I think so ; I think it would have a very beneficial effect upon the whole
trade ; it would raise the standard of tlie quality.
22491. it would raise the price, I suppose, too?
It would raise the price, but it need not raise it to a very considerable
extent.
22492. Would it raise it to an extent that would have any effect upon the
export trade, do you suppose?
JN'ot if the Act was moderate in its extent ; of course if it went to extremes,
and made the test too expensive, then it would have an effect.
22493. Hpw do you suppose that it should be done ; that there should be
testing places ?
I think that every man issuing a certificate of test should have a proper
testing machine under inspection ; an insj)ector of weights and measures, for
insiance. should inspect it.
22494. But you would not compel every small shop to have a testing
machine, would you ?
No ; every manufacturer who issues a certificate, not every small shop ;
it would take a great many shops or a large factory to employ a testing
machine. It is certain that something should be done to prevent the frauds
which are now practised.
22495. Is this fraud practised to such an extent as to exclude those manu-
facturers that do test their chain ? ^ -ru 4.
It excludes them from the foreign trade m a great measure. The export
trade and a good deal of the home trade has drifted into the hands of these
cheap makes, and tl.e result has been to depreciate the quality and lower the
wages.
22406. Are there any testing works at Cradley Heath? n ,
If you will look at these certificates you will see that they call thena Cr& ey
Heath indiscriminately ; there are three there which are called Cradley Heath
Chain Testing Works; it is impossible to identify them.
22497. I see the superintendent in this case {pointing to a certificate) is a
man of the name of James Billingham ?
Yes.
22408. Then 1 have one here, headed Cradley Heath Cham Testing
whiciris signed by Thomas Coley, Superintendent ; is that the same place, do
™w'arrrrad a letter in legiird lo that case? A letter was sent to the Board
of Trade on the 12th of March 1884 , with regard to tnose ^
ham and Coley. It says ; “ M e have ascertained from Albert
he has no machine or any means of testing chains and that Thomas Coley,
of Sheffield-street, Quarry Bank, made out the certificate. We have seen this
man and he informed us that he signed this certificate m the name of James
Billingham, who is said to be the father of
write his name ; he is in the employ of his son, Alber. Billingham; so that
they do not hesitate to acknowledge the fact.
22AQ0* Who IS tho-t letter from t ^ i £ r
Ikttcr signed by a manufacturer in our neighbourhood a f ™
chainmakers, Henry P. Parkes and Ross, to the Board of Trade. Then it goes
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
387
21s;; i^/arc/^ 1889.] Mr. Hingley, m.p. [Coiitiiiued,
on to say, ‘‘ Our customer abroad was, from the words ‘ tested to Board of
Trade strain,’ and the mark or letters ‘ B. crown T.’ ” (whicli is tlie
Board of Trade mark), ‘^deluded into the idea that he was purchasing chain
tested at a machine duly licensed by the Board of Trade.” J3ut nevertheless the
Board of Trade held that they could not interfere.
22500. Might I ask the date ?
It M^as March 1884. I referred to that certificate {pointing to a cer
tijicate).
22501. I see it says that it is “stamped with certain marks on the end
link ” ?
Yes, they put the stamp on in case of need.
22502. That is merely to identify the chain ?
Yes; this stamp should appear on the end link. 1 consider that if steps
were taken to ensure honest and fair testing of rigging, crane, and hoisting
chains it would have a beneficial effect upon the trade, and that the work done
in these out-shops wmuld be limited in extent and would gradually
go into the factories. I would make it to the interest of the employers to
have proper factories and have the work properly done, and employ work-
men capable of doing it. I may say with regard to that point that I was on the
Admiralty Committee fur Contracts two years ago, when this question came up,
amongst other things, of buying the chains for the Admiralty, and the evidence
brought before us showed very plainly that the small chains, even for the
Admirahy, that liad been bought were of the cheapest and commonest kind and
practically untested. New conditions were laid down by the Admiralty to
ensure the use of good material and proper workmanship, and that the chains
should be all tested down to the smallest size, the very .‘smallest size made with
wire ; and the result has been that the Admiralty chains are being made now of
superior quality, and the work is being done by workmen, not by w omen and
children ; and the same result would follow in other cases if we could insure
that proper testing was used ; it would go far to correct the entire evil.
,22503. Does the inferiority consist in the workmanship or in the material or
in both ?
In both.
22504. You mean that with equally good material the women ami children
cannot make as good an article as the men ?
It is a fact that women and children cannot make chains lo stand the test and
examination.
22505. Therefore if they were properly tested, one of the effects would be to
do away with a great deal of the labour of females and children ?
It would result in the work being done by the workmen ; it has had that
effect.
22506. You would have no objection, I suppose, to this chain being made,
as long as it was not certified to be tested when it was not tested ?
Certainly, 1 have no objection whatever. If people choose to buy untested
chain, or any rubbish they like, I cannot object; but what I do object to is,
that chains are sent out all over the world as being tested when they are merely
put in the blacking-pot ; the “ blacking- pot test ” bas become one of the names
of the common chain.
22507. Earl of Derhp^ You said, I think, that employers in factories ought
to be compelled to put up a list of prices, and to pay accordingly; you would
make that a legal obligation ?
I would make that a legal obligation.
22508. Is that, or is anything like it, made a legal obligation in any other
kind of business that you know of?
It is a legal obligation. I am chairman of the iron trade and the iron trade
wages board, and we have a uniform list of wages for the iron trade, which is a
(11.) 3 c 2 much
388
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
215? March 1889.] Mr. HiNGLEY, M.p. [^Continued.
much greater trade than the chain trade ; and the wages fixed lij our board
apply to all the iron woikers in Staffordshire, Worcestershire, Derbyshire, South
\ orkshire, Shropsliire, and Lancashire, and every employer must pay that wage;
he is legally bound to pay it so long as he employs the men.
22509. In what way is he legally hound to pay ?
It is a uniform rate of wages fixed in the iron trade, and unless he makes a
different bargain he is bound by that.
22510. But he is not bound, is he, to follow the custom of the trade, or the
practice of othei' employers ; if he likes to make a separate bargain, he may ?
I said, unless he makes a different bargain.
22511. Does not that exception neutralise the rule. What is the use of
publishing a list of prices as being fixed and agreed upon, if everybody is at
liberty to deviate from it?
Every man may jmt up his own list ; 10 employers may put up 10 different
lists; but I say he ought to publish the price which he intends to pay when he
gives out the work.
225 I 2. What I want to know is, if he is allowed to fix that price as he pleases
what advantage is gained by compelling him to publish it?
The advantage would be this, that the workman would know what price he
was going to receive for hisw’ork; whereas, in this small chain trade, when
trade is at all deiiressed, he is not sure what he will get.
22513. But can he not know by the simple process of asking?
Yes, he could know by the process of asking when the work is given out to
him ; but it dees not follow that he will get even that price when it goes in.
22514. What 1 w’ant to get at is, what is the advantage that is supposed to
be gained by compelling the publication of the prices which the employer will
pay, win 11 it is left to the employers’ own discretion, as I understand, to fix
those prices ?
This small chain trade is a very peculiar business. At present, as I said
before, the relation of employer and workman scarcely exists between the ware-
house-masters and the out-shop men ; they are buyers and sellers ; and I think
the publication of a list would bring the warehouse- master more into the rela-
tion of employer; he would give that list to all his workmen.
22515. Y^ou do not make it a legal obligation upon the grocer to put up the
pri( e he will ask for every article of groceries he sells to you ?
There comes in the relation of buyer and seller. 1 say if anything could be
done to bting them into the relation of employers and workmen it would be a
very good thing for the trade. In the factories, you see, w'e are under those
relations.
22516. What you object to is to a separate bargain being made for every
order ?
I'or every order and for every workman ; they may pay a dozen different
prices the same week to a dozen different men.
225:7. Should they all be paid the same price; is there not a considerable
difference in tbe quality of the work done by different men ?
The list provides for difference in quality. I have the latest list here, the
revised list, and here we have eight different qualities ; so that it provides for
that.
22518. That is the quality of the iron, is it?
The equality of tlie work, the quality of the iron and the quality of the work
of course follow each other ; the better the iron the better the work as a
rule.
22519. But this proposal of a compulsory publication of the list of prices is
one pecidiar to ibis trade, and it is not imposed by law in any other case ?
In factories it is scarcely necessary to do so, because a price is understood to
be
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
389
2\st March J889.] Mr. Hingley, m.p.
[ Continued.
be agreed upon between ibe employers and the workmen, and it is not altered
without due notice.
22520. How long should such a list of prices be binding ; it might be altered
every day, I suppose ?
The rule in the chain trade is that no alteration should take place under 14
days.
22521. That is the practice ; but of course there is no legal obligation r
It has become a legal obligation in factories. If an employer in a factory
does nut pay the list price, if he reduces the list price without giving 14 days’
notice, be is bound to pay it by law ; he is summoned and the magistrates order
him to pay it ; the custom has become a law.
22522. That is to say, in the absence of any special bargain it is assumed that
the list price is that which he pays ?
Yes, and that 14 days’ notice of alteration is necessary.
22523. You told ns that machinery would be more economical than hand
labour in this trade; that I presume we may take it is the general rule ?
Yes.
22524. And also that machinery can only be applied (as I suppose we may
assume that it can) in a factory, and not in small workshops ?
Machinery can only be applied to a certain extent in factories, namely, for
cutting the iron and for blowing the blast.
22525. Is not that a natural advantage that the factory possesses over the
workshop ?
Yes.
22526. And is it, therefore, necessary to legislate against the existence of
what I may call a rival industry, over which you possess these advantages ?
I am afraid that in practice w^e lose the advantage.
22527. Why?
Owing to the want of association among these out-workers ; they are reduced
in price until they work at much less rate than in factories.
22528. Then I understand that is your complaint, that because the work-
people employed in these out-shops are not associated, they are obliged to take
a lower rate of wages, and therefore the factories get undersold ?
I do not make it a complaint; I am simply considering in what way the
people may l)e benefited, or how we can raise their condition, it does not
affect me personally.
22520. You spoke as representing factories?
1 did not speak in a tone of complaint against them, in the least ; they do
not interfere with me and others ; we depend upon our reputation.
22531'. When you say that men, women, and children ought not to be em-
ployed all together, are they never employed together in a factory ?
Not in the larger chain factorii.s; I do not know a case in which any woman
or girl is employed. Boys are employed ; I did not say “ children ; ” I
intended to say women and girls.
22531. Do you think that the rule of confining workshops to members of
one family would be one easy to enforce, practically ?
I do think so.
22532. It would be necessary to ascertain in every case that the person em-
ployed was not some relative of the employer ?
I daresay there would be infractions of the rule, but I think it would be
generally observed.
22533. You spoke of the small chains not being tested, and that they ought
to be tested; small chains used for what purpose
For rigging vessels, cranes, and hoisting chains ; nothing more important.
. ( 11 .)
22534. Then
3 c 3
390
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
21s^ March 1889.] Mr. Hingley, m.p. [^Continued.
22534. Then you put it on the ground of public safety ?
I think they ouglit to be tested on the ground of public safety.
22535. think that such chains ought to be tested?
I think they ought to be tested on the ground of public safety ; but my
strong objection is to their being sold as tested when they are not tested.
22536. That is a fraud ?
Of course.
22537. ^^ut even though there be no case of fraud, you object to these chains
being sold untested ?
If people choose to buy them untested, so that they do not use them to the
public danger, I should let them do so.
22538. And you do not object to their being sold untested if people choose to
buy them ?
If they choose to buy them, and do not put my life in danger by the use of
them, they can buy them, and do what they like with them.
22539. Earl of Aberdeen^ You mean that you would not object to their
being sold, provided it was understood by the purchaser that they were not
tested goods, that they could not be dependt'd upon ?
Yes.
22540. As to the family workshop, would your idea be that such a shop
should be restricted to persons living together as a family, even though they
might not be all literally the same family ; I mean cousins and uncles and so
forth would be admitted if they were living in the same tenement ?
Yes, members of the same family, whether they were children or relatives, if
they were living together ; even though they adopted one, so long as it was a
family shop consisting of the same people living together.
22541. But suppose some of the party were paid, though relations, or living
there, would that be, according to the scheme, inadmissible ?
They would become hired then.
22542. Would not that be rather an awkward complication ?
I do not think so.
22543. Would you admit them as hired ?
No, 1 do not think so; 1 think -all the hired people should be in factories.
22544. Your idea is that the family workshop should be confined to those
not receiving wages ?
Yes, working for the head of the family.
22545. Lord Clifford of Chndleigh.~\ 1 do not know whether I quite under-
stand the reasons for this price list being put up. If work is taken out under
a contract the terms of which are not specified, then the price paid for that is
regulated by what is customary, or what is a reasonable price, and I suppose
the difficulty is that under these circumstances it is very difficult to tell wliat is
the customary price or what is a reasonable price ; and you wish to have the
list j)ut up so that there should be no question at all about it ?
Just so ; I think the list should be put up so that the worker should know
what price lie is going to be paid ; and I also said that when he takes in his
work lie should have a clear reckoning, and a note of his work, showing that he
is’ffieing paid truly and fairly.
22546. But you would not interfere with an employer when he had a price
list posted up, saying to the individual man, “ 1 want this job finished at a
price so much below my list price ” ?
That is the present system.
22547. Not altogether, as I take it; the present system very often is that a man
takes that work without anything at all being said to him about the price, and
when
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
391
2\st March 1889.] Mr. Hingley, m.p. {^Continued.
when the work is finished, and the man brings it back, the employer says to
him, “ I cannot give you so much as I have been giving for this ” ?
That is customary.
22548. But supposing when the work was first taken out, he said to the man
before it was finished, “ I am only going to give you so much less than was
given you for the last,” wouhl you interfere with that ?
J adhere to my opinion that an employer ought not to reduce the standard
of wages without giving fair notice.
22549. That he should not be allowed like that to make a contract unless he
gave notice of a fortnight ?
In dealing with workmen, I think he should be under some regulations. I
explained before that the warehouse masters and the small chainmakers and
nailmakers have got into the position of buyer and seller ; they are no longer
master and workmen.
22550. What I want to get at is whether you would make a man put up a
list from which he is not, without a fortnight’s notice, to vary under any circum-
stances, or whether you would have him put up the list in order to regulate
contracts about which he does not say anything, or whether the list is to pre-
vent his making any special contract with any particular man?
Well, it would apply in the first case more than in the second. Of course
the employer would not be compelled to give out any work at that list.
22551. That is, he might shut up his shop ?
He might shut up Ids shop.
22552. If he gives work to one man, he must give it to the next man on
precisely the same terms ?
I am afraid that would follow, and that might create some difficulty. We
are in exactly the same position in the factories ; that is our position in the
factories ; we must continue paying the price until we give 14 days’ notice.
22553. You said that the labour of women should be restricted to certain
special lighter kinds of work ; would you put the power in the hands of the
local authorities, or a certain local authority, to make regulations, or would you
have it embodied in an Act ; which do you think would be the preferable way
of doing it ?
It would not matter much which,
22554. It would be simpler, wouhl it not* to put it in the hands of a local
authority that would be conversant with the actual conditions of each trade,
than to endeavour to put it in a general Act?
If we were to legislate for tlie particular trades we could define the conditions.
If we are to legislate for chains and nails only, we can easily lay down these
conditions. I think we should not only limit the size, but that the practice of
women and girls working by means of the treadle and Oliver, of which so much
has been said, ought to be prohibited as being altogether unfit work for women
and girls.*
22555. Chairman?\ Do you know anytliing of chain made by women in
Cradley being sold as Walsall chain, and fetching a superior price in con-
sequence, though being of an inferior quality ?
It is possible that the Walsall people may come and buy chain at Cradley and
sell it as their own ; I think it is very probable that they do.
2255b. You do not know anything about it for certain ?
1 think there is no question whatever about the superiority of Walsall chain.
22557. You
* Mr. Hingley desires to modify that part of his evidence which proposed to prohibit the use of the
“treadle and oliver” by women. The Oliver, with a die fixed in it, is necessary for forming the head
of the small hob nails, chiefly made in the Bromsgrove district ; hut it is small in size, and so nicely poised
that a mere touch of the toe on the treadle brings down the oliver, and it heads the nail at one blow ; that
is very different from the use of the treadle and oliver in making spike nails and cutting the iron as prac-
tised at Halesowen and elsewhere. An exception from entire prohibition is necessary for making the small
nails in question, subject to the approval of the factory inspectors.
(11.) 3C4
392
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2lst March 1889.] Mr. HiNGLEY, M.P.
[ Continued.
22557. You think it is not superior?
Oh, no.
22558. What is put before the Committee is that this chain, made by men
in Walsall in I’actories, is superior to chain of the same kind made by the women
at Cradley Heath ?
There are no chains made in Walsall of any consequence excepting chains
connected with saddlery ; halter chains, and so on.
22559. At any rate, you say there are just as good chains being made at
Cradley ?
Yes.
22560. Though, being made by women, I suppose they are cheaper ?
The women can make small cliains, such as halter chains and light work
satisfactory for all purposes ; but the great evil is that they have drifted intf
making larges sizes for rigging and cranes.
22561. Just one word about posting up the statement of prices. I suppose,
as a matter of fact, that at the small shops, the out-workers imagine that thev
are working at the list prices, do they not; they assume that they are?
They assume that they are, unless they are told the contrary.
22562. And when they take, their work in they get paid less ?
They get paid less if trade is in a depressed condition ; they are at the mercy
of the employer.
22563. And you think it is necessary for their protection that the prices
should be paid to them as stated in the list, and not varied without notice }
Yes.
22564. It has been suggested that the same thing should be done for various
other trades ?
I think, generally speaking, that workpeople are entitled to protection in all
trades.
22565. Now as to nails?
As to nailmaking, I have already said tliat I agree with the suggestion that
there should be a limit in size in the work the women and girls do ; they should
not be allowed to do work requiring the use of the treadle and the oliver ; it
is laborious work only fit lor men. But the system of domestic workshops,
of family workshops, is much more necessary in the nail trade than in the
chain trade ; in fact it may be said to be absolutely necessary in the nail trade,
the small nail trade, that is.
22566. But with regard to the larger nails, would the suggestion that you
made as to the superiority of the factories over the domestic workshops in the
chain trade apply equally to the nail trade?
Entirely so, in the larger nails.
22567. And what you said about the statement of prices, and that they should
not be changed under a fortnight’s notice?
Yes, there is no reason whatever why the same condition should not apply to
the nail trade.
22568. Do you know whether there is much influx into the chain trade of
the nailmakers ?
There are very few, I think, of the boys and young men now who learn to
make nails ; they go into the chain trade and other trades. Women and girls
work so cheaply that men cannot compete with them.
22569. You have heard a good deal of the evidence that has been given
before the Committee ?
Yes ; I agree with it generally.
22570. You mean that you agree generally with what has been said about
the various grievances and hardships of the w orkmen ?
Yes,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
393
2\ St March 1889.] Mr. Hingley, m.p. {Continued.
Yes, I do. With regard to the allegations which some of the people have
made as to being cheated by the employers in weights, most of them rest on a
very small foundation ; there are such cases undoubtedly.
22571. False weights, you mean ?
False weights. There are such cases, 1 think, but very limited indeed.
22572. As to giving out different sizes and improper sizes of iron ?
The giving out of different sizes of iron is a common practice with the smaller
employers, that is, in the chain trade, not in the nail trade.
22573. The workman gets the weight and price of a certain size of chain
and makes a smaller one ?
Yes. The iron to make a quarter-inch chain, for instance, is number 3 ;
they give the man the size below ; number 4, and call it number 3, and of
course in 1 cwt. of chain they would have perhaps to shut a thousand extra
links at the same price.
22574. In your experience, and within your knowledge of these trades in
this district, has the condition of the people deteriorated ; are they worse off
than they used to be, or better off?
They are worse off than they used to be in the case of the smaller nail-
makers and chainmakers ; but it must not be supposed for one moment that
the condition of the district generally is bad. There are hundreds of chain-
makers who are thriving and doing well, building their own cottages, and
making their way in the world. The evil is almost entirely confined to what
may be called the lowest class, and where women and children’s work comes in.
22575. 1 am not quite clear that I understood how you propose to transfer
labour into the factories ; how would you bring it about ?
So far as regards the chainmaking, I think if a certain limitation were put
upon their work in regard to size and number of hours, especially if proper
testing was enforced, we should have better work.
22576. But 1 do not quite understand how you would do away with these
falsely-called domestic workshops, and transfer the labour into factories ; how
would you bring that about ; by what legislation ?
Well, if a warehouse-master found it to be to his advantage to build a factory
instead of employing these shop-people he would very soon do so.
22577. yf’u mean that if the chains had to be tested, and if these factory
regulations as to hours, and so on, were insisted on, the work would naturally
go into factories?
I think so ; that would be the tendency. I do not believe that we can
insist upon it by law that people shall work in factories ; but we should
do what we can to induce them, and influence them in that direction. I have
already instanced the case of the Admiralty contract for small chains. That
has entirely raised the standard of it, and it is all being made now in factories,
or principally in factories, and by workmen. It requires good work, and to be
properly tested. Whatever we could do in that direction would have a bene-
ficial effect. In the same w'ay with regard to the nailmaking, and what was
mentioned here in my hearing in regard to the Government contract for nails.
That stands much on the same footing. They buy the cheapest and commonest
stuff that can be bought, the v/ork of women and girls, without regard to the
quality.
22578. Do you agree that the wrought nails are very superior to the cast
nails ?
I entirely agree with that.
22579. Would you say that it has been false economy on the part of the
Government to insist on the cheap cast nails being used ?
I think it is a serious mistake so far as that is concerned.
22580. You mean that it costs more in the long run ; in the end?
(11.) 3D
It
394
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2 \st March 1889 .] Mr. Hinglet, m.i\ [^Continmd.
It costs more ; and not only costs more, but it must be detrimental to the
service in many respects. Very few workmen who have to buy their own
bools will have those cast nails to my knowledge. The soldier, of course, must
take what he can get.
22581. Is there anything else you would like to say?
I would just like to say, with regard to the condition of the neighbourhood,
that I do not at all agree with the statements that have been made as to the
bad condition of the neighbourhood. I have known Cradley all my life; in
fact, I live in the outskirts of Cradley, and I know it is a healthy place as a
whole, although there are black spots. There are black spots in Cradley and
Cradley Heath, and so there are elsewhere, and there are deplorable cases in all
trades.
22582. Do you think that, generally speaking, the sanitary condition of
Cradley is good ?
Generally speaking, the condition of the people is fair, and in a great number
of cases the people are thriving, and doing well, especially now that trade has
improved ; and the district, on the whole, is healthy. That place, Anvil-yard,
belongs to someone that bears my name, but he is no connection of mine ; that
is a bad place and ought ro be swept away.
22583. That is an exceptional place you would say?
Yes. Another place, Tibbetts’-garden, Cradley Heath, is another bad place;
but because tlie mining ground happens to have subsided, it is difficult to deal
with. Then further, I do not at all agree with what has been said as to the
habits of the people. There is no real grounrl for charging them with immo-
rality or want of decency.
22584. I do not think a charge was made of any immorality or want of
decency ?
I am alluding to what has appeared in the newspapers.
22585. It was stated to the Committee that the method of doing the work
had a tendency towards immorality ?
Yes ; I agree that the practice of men and women and children being mixed
up indiscriminately in the workshops is conducive to immorality ; and that is
one reason why one wonders that they are as decent as they are.
22586. Do you think that in point of morality and sobriety and hard work,
they are about the same as other people ?
I hey compare favourably with any other district, and I think the statistics
will show that they do.
22587. Is there anything more vou desire to say ?
No.
22588. Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.~\ Do you take any active part in the work
of the sanitary authority at Cradley ?
No.
22589. You are not on the board of guardians, are you ?
No.
22590. Lord Monkswell.^'] You are not one of the local authorities?
No, a brother of mine is.
22591. And he is the gentleman alluded to by the sanitary inspector?
As being one of the guardians.
22592. I suppose you have some influence with the rural sanitary
authority ?
Yes, I am an ex-officio guardian.
22593. Then you are one of the rural sanitary authorities ?
I am, ex officio, but I have never attended.
22594. Lord
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
395
2\st March Mr. Hingley, m.i>. {^Continued.
22594. Lord Clifford of Chadleigh.'] Are there difficulties in regard to
sanitary work in consequence of the subsidence of the ground?
Yes.
22595. Lord Sandhurst.~\ It amounts to this, that if the rural sanitary
authority had properly done their duty the state of things in these districts
would be better than it is ?
It would be. The whole thing with regard to rural sanitary authorities
wants widening ; they are on a wrong basis. The guardians themselves are
generally owners of the property in question, and being the owners of property
they become guardians, and the inspector is their servant, liable to be dismissed
at any moment, or at the end of a year.
22596. At the same time is it not the fact that the sanitary inspector can
call upon owners to create certain improvements ?
Yes; but as I was just explaining, he calls upon the owners, who are the
guardians, and his masters. The whole thing wants putting on a wider and
more liberal basis.
22597. Lord Monkswell.~\ In fact the guardians pay him?
Yes ; and they may dismiss him almost at any moment.
22598. I have seen it stated in the “ Lancet ” that infant mortality in this
district is much greater than it ought to be; do you know anything about
that r
I have not seen it.
22599. You do not know of your own knowledge whether the infant
mortality in your district is excessive?
I should be very much inclined to doubt it. I know there is an excess of
births over deaths.
22600. Lord Sandhurst.'] It was stated, I think by the doctor, that the
population of Halesowen is increasing?
Yes.
22601. I presume from that that the trade is not falling aw'aj'^ from
Halesowen ?
No ; the trade is not falling away from Halesowen ; there is also an influx of
people into Halesowen from the adjoining mining districts to live in Hales-
owen.
22602. Lord Monkswell.] My point about tlie infant mortality is this, that
the mortality amongst the grown-up people might be less than the average, and
the mortality itself might be about the average, and yet the mortality among
infants might be greater than the average, and that would show that there was
something wrong in the condition of the district, would it not?
If there was an undue proportion, it would.
22603. There might be an undue proportion, though the death-rate might
not be high ?
Possibly the death-rate in adults may be exceptionally low, and in the infants
exceptionally high, and the average still below the general average.
22604. Lord Clifford of CJmdleigh.] I take it you admit that a great deal of
the work that the wometi do is work totally unfit for women to do, and that
that in itself will probably have a very considerable effect upon infant
mortality ?
Undoubtedly it has.
22605. That the work would account for the infant mortality to a considerable
t-xtent, without the sanitary state of the country being bad ?
Yes.
Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to To-morrow,
Twelve o’clock.
(11.)
3 D 2
[ 397 1
Die Veneris^ Martii, 1889.
LORDS PRESENT:
Earl of Derby.
Earl Brownlow.
Viscount Gordon {Earl of Aberdeen').
Lord Clifford of Chudleigh,
Lord Foxford {Earl of Limerick).
Lord Kenry {Earl of Dunraven and
Alount- Earl.)
Lord Sandhurst.
Lord Monkswell.
Lord Basing.
Lord KENRY (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl), in the Chair.
Mr. ADOLPHE SMITH, f.c.s., is called in ; and having been sworn,
is Examined, as follows :
22606. Chairman.^ Are you a Surgeon ?
No.
22607. A medical man?
No.
22608. Do you know the localities that the Committee have been inquiring’
into lately ?
Yes, 1 went over the greater portion of them within the last few weeks.
22609. With what object?
To write a special report for the “ Lancet ” newspaper ; I am their Sanitary
Commissioner, and have been trained at the office specially to investigate all
matteis concerning public health.
22610. How long have you occupied that position r
About 12 years.
2261 1. What places have you visited ?
I have visited Halesowen, Netherton, Cradley, Cradley Heath, Old Hill, and
Dudley.
22612. Did you examine into the sanitary conditions of the workshops, or
into the sanitary conditions of the towns generally ?
Both ; both the houses and the workshops and the drainage.
22613. conditions under which the work is carried on, whether
they are wholesome, or the reverse ?
Yes.
22614. What have you to say as to the sanitary condition of these
places r
If you would allow me, I should like to put before you very briefly a few
figures, showing that the death-rate is high in the district ; and then I would
briefly describe what, in my imagination, are the principal causes of this abnornal
death-rate.
22615. Certainly?
I have written down the figures so as not to make any error ; they
(11.) 3D3 are *
398
MINUTES OF EA'^IDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
22nd March 1889.] Mr. Adolphe Smith, f.c.s. {Continued.
are very short. Thougli the general death-rate in the nail and chain
districts is not very high, the death-rate returns do show exceptional
mortality. d'aking the larcund sometimes own
their houses ?
A good many pitmen own their houses.
22727. Will you continue your statement?
I do not think I wish to say anything more on the sanitary point. I shall
be happy to answer any questions. I only wish to make this very clear to the
Committee and the world in general, that Cradley Heath is not Cradley, and
that there is no connection between ('radley and Cradley Heath in connection
with the outbreak of typhoid that took place there last year.
22728. Took place where ?
At Cradley ; we disclaim all connection with Cradley on that head.
22729. You say you iiave great difficulty in stopping these wells, in persuad-
ing the people not to drink the water ?
Aery great
22730. Although the water is contaminated r
Yes, they will not understand that. And I will tell you another thing. Our
sanitary authority opposed a Waterworks Bill last Session, on this very ground,
that we wanted to obtain for them a better supply. You see when a man has
a well, of course in ordinary weather he can get water from this well ; whether
it is good, bad, or indifferent water, he can get w^ater ; but when his well is
closed and he is shut up to a waterworks tap, if there is no water on he cannot
get any. That is so much the case that on Saturday there is a constant com-
plaint (it has been in the past extremely common, and it exists to some extent
now' that on the Saturday, when they want the water most, they cannot get any
water because the waterworks company is believed to economise the supply on
that day, to cut it off to some little extent so as to provide against too lavish a
use of it ; and therefore when they are all using their taps for washing their
houses out, and so on, they cannot get any water. Naturally they complain; I
am besieged by them at times ; they come up in shoals and say, “ Look here,
you have shut up my well, and I cannot get any water from the tap ; what am
I to do ” ?
22731. I do not think 1 have any further questions to ask you on that sanitary
point. I take it from you that you say that in your parish the general average
of the mortality returns is good ; that the infant mortality is very high, but that
you attribute that in the main to the habit of early marriage and the number
of children ?
I attribute it mainly to that.
22732. And that you think that your Hoard are doing all that they can do,
considering the poverty of the parish, to improve the sanitary condition ?
I am sure of it, I do not own a house in the parish, and I have.no interest
in the parish otherwise than to improve it as far as I possibly can ; and that I
have consistently tried to do as long as 1 have been on the Local Board ; and
we have had no opposition of any consequence from landlords.
22733. Does Til)bett’s-garden, this place which you just now alluded to,
belong to a single owner ?
No, it belongs to several owners, mostly people owning one or two cottages,
very wretched cottages built many years ago. We do not allow any\ house to
be built now but what the sanitary conditions are provided for properly. I
would ask your Lordships to observe that the last witness said, “ I saw one
house ” out of 5,000 or 6,000. These insanitary houses, if such exist, are very
old houses, built not less than 80 or 90 years ago, and some of them have been
ruined by mining. We have cases now in which we shrink from closing houses
that are ruinons, having been ruined by the working of mines, because we
know that the people who own them will have to go into the workhouses
if we do.
(11.)
3 F 2
22734. Have
412
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
22nr? March 1889.] Mr. Bassano. [^Continued.
Have you any idea how many of these chain or nailmakers owning
small shops of their own there are in your parish ?
I could not tell you how many.
22735. Lord Sandhurst.'] Are most of the houses, do I understand you to
say, in Tibbett’s-garden in the hands of the occupier ?
Yes, most of them.
22736. Chairman.] Then you consider that the vast majority of these houses,
both dwelling houses and shops, are in a fairly good sanitary condition ?
Yes, I say that the majority of them are undoubtedly ; they will compare
favourably with any dist) ict that I know of, as to their sanitary condition ; I do
say that most unhesitatingly. I could take you to houses among them which
are not at all what they ought to be. They would be the exception and not
the rule. And 1 can take you into similar class of houses in all the surrounding
townships of Lye, Halesowen, Cradley and Netherton, any of the surrounding
townships, and I will find you much worse.
22737. Should you say that the condition of your parish is much superior to
that of all the neighbouring parishes ?
I claim to compare favourably with any one of the surrounding parishes. A
question was asked about the birth-rate. The birth-rate is very high. The
births last year were 1 , 156 ; that is 36‘2 per 1 , 000 , and the death-rate, as
you observe, w-as 18‘2 ; it was just half. Our people breed wonderfully; they
begin breeding very early, and they go on to 12 , 13 , or 14 children ; that sort
of thing.
22738. Earl of Aberdeen.] Do you attribute this rapid production to
the early marriages, or to other circumstances in connection with their habits of
life?
I do not know why they should breed more than other people, but they do
breed, and that is all I can tell you. If your Lordships have no other ques-
tion on the sanitary matter, I should like to say something now about the
morality.
22739. \uordi Monhswell.] You say that the birih-rate is very high as well as
the death-rate low ; might not the lowness of the death-rate, to some extent,
depend upon the highness of the birth-rate ?
I do not quite see that.
22740. The death-rate of itself is no conclusive test of health. If you have a
very large birth-rate, the death-rate is naturally small. Take it in this way ;
supposing you had a community that was decreasing, where the death-rate was
greater than the birth-rate, then, though the people might be extremely healthy,
the death-rate would be high, because they would be gradually getting older;
but where the birth-rate is very high, the community is getting younger every
day, and therefore the death-rate is naturally lower, though the health of the
neighbourhood might not be any better ?
I fancy there is a good deal of migration fi om our district which rather helps
to keep that in balance, though we do increase very rapidly. The census in the
year 1881 was 2/,383 ; in 1888 it was 30 , 800 .
22741. I do not mean to say that other things must not be taken into con-
sideration ; emigration and .immigration and so on ; but it is a well-known
statistical fact that a high birth-rate means a low death-rate, and vice versa,
quite irrespective of the health of the district ?
Yes. As to the morality shall 1 give evidence now ?
22742. Chairman.] Yes ?
A good deal has been said against the morality of this district and the im-
morality caused by the conditions under which the people work. ^ I must say
that I think there is very little ground for such a charge. Prostitution is wholly
unknown in our district. Therefore that narrows you down to what you may
call promiscuous intercourse. Now with people of such a breeding habit as
these, your Lordships will readily see that that would lead to an improper
increase
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
413
22nd March ISS9.'] Mr. Bassano. ^Continued,
increase of the population. Now, from the statistics of the last half year, which
I just happened to have access to the other day, there were five hundred and some
odd births in the parish, and of that number 26 were illegitimate only. That
is not a very high percentage ; but of that 26 , nine were domestic servants and
three were chainmakers ; three out of 500 births only among these immoral
chainmakers ! I ask you, my Lord, to take particular note of that, for a greater
slander was never uttered on a population than was uttered on this population
when it was said that they are immoral people.
•22743. 1 do not think that we have had it in evidence before us that these
people are immoral people ?
No ; but writers of sensational articles who are writing on the evidence which
has been taken before this Committee have made very much of the immorality
of it, the insanitary condition and the immorality.
22744. been stated before us that the conditions under which they
work may be conducive to immorality, but we have had no charge that the
people are immoral ; on the contrary, we have heard from witnesses that they
compare with other people in the same class of life, both in morality and industry
and sobriety, and so on ?
There is no doubt a tendency, I do not for a moment mean to say that there
is not a tendency, to laxity of morals, but if it be considered how these people
are brought up, that for the most part they live in two-roomed cottages, as the
last witness said, that for the most part they sleep in two bedrooms (that is an
unhappy fact). I think it does them the greatest possible credit that under
such unfavourable circumstances of bringing up, they grow up as moral as they
are ; 1 repeat that I tiiink it does them the greatest possible credit. They sleep
in the two rooms ; and that arises from this fact, that you cannot build a three-
roomed cottage up-stairs for a price these poor people can afford to pay. They
cannot afford to pay more than about an average of 3 5. a week rent ; and for
3 s. no man living can provide a cottage with three bedrooms. I am sure I
have tried my best to do it ; I have built a good many on my estates, and 1
cannot build a three-roomed cottage up-stairs that I could afford to let, that
would pay me any kind of interest, at 3 5. a week; and that is the reason why
these are all two-roomed cottages. However much it is to be lamented, there
the fact remains, and the people are brought up under those conditions. That
is all I wish to say about the morality.
22745. As far as the fact of the brothers and sisters sleeping in the same room,
and so on, is concerned, that of course is not peculiar to these people in these
trades ; that is an evil which is common in various parts of the country?
No doubt of it.
22746. But do you think that there is anything in the way that the work is
carried on in your district which is conducive to immorality, and which might
be avoided ?
No, I do not. The work is carried on either in large, middling size, or small
factories; and I use the word “factories” because I should prefer to apply
that term to every kind of shop, I should like every shop to be con-
sidered a factory, whether it be a small one attached to a house, or whether it
be a larger one. But however that may be, there is nothing in the conditions
that, in my view, at all conduces to immorality. There is no doubt that boys and
girls, these young people, when they are tired of work, or want to take a spell
of chat, or what not, will go off into an adjoining shop, and a young fellow
will talk to a girl. But how can you prevent that ? You cannot put them on two
sides as they do in some churches ; they must necessarily mix ; and if they can mix
in the bed -rooms surely they can mix in the shops.
22747. Prostitution, you. say, is practically unknown, and the number of
illegitimate births very small ?
Very small.
22748. Both those facts might be accounted for, might they not, by these
very early marriages you have spoken of?
(U.) 3F3 No
414
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2'2nd March 1889 .]
Mr. Bassano.
\^Continued.
No doubt, ill tlie world, if they did not marry as early as I have spoken of,
the dleptimate birtlis would be largely increased. 1 am very much afraid that
the first birth comptls, or as it h called by the people themselves, “obligates”
the marnaue. °
22^49. ^ gather tiiat from what you said about so many of these mar-
riages, the man and woman separating almost immediately after they left the
church, you said that the girl went back to her familv, and the man went
back to his ?
That is so. They begin to court very early, at 14 or 15 , and then they fre-
(jiiently, as they say, have to marry.
22750* you think that if this work were carried on more largely in fac-
tories it would have a good moral effect ?
No, I do not think it wumld make any difference at all.
22 / 51 * Is it not the case, too, that frec|uently there are only a man and a
girl working together in one. shop, the girl blowing for him r
Yes, but they are relations generally ; the small shop is a family shop, and
for the most part they are relations who are working together, and therefore I
do not think that that comes in at all.
22/52. You think that the relationship is so close that it obviates any
immorality arising from that cause }
Yes.
_ 22753. Aberdeen.] There has been a great deal said about persons
dispensing with clothing in warm weather ; is there much in that ?
I heard of it, I never saw it, and I have not met with anyone who has seen
it. I think if you will ask that question of the inspector of factories you will
get a very satisfactory answer.
22754. When you say the inspector of factories, you would include his
exfierience in workshops ?
I mean Mr. Hoare, the Inspector of Factories, w'ho is continually about our
district,
22755. Chairman.] Will you take up another point now ; what have you to
say about the middlemen ?
Middlemen are like most other men ; there aie good, bad, and indifferent
ones. The bad ones are the curse of the trade ; the good ones are a
good deal better than many of the masters who are called chain manu-
facturers.
22756. Perhaps, then, you had beter tell us fiist what you mean by a
middleman ?
It is a long way to go back, but in my view the middleman was first created
by the idle and improvident workman If a man is a bad workman, or idle, or
improvident, his work is not accepted by his master, probably being below
quality or not up to time, and is thrown upon his hands ; and that 1 believe
was the origin of the middleman in the greatest degree ; that created him ;
because this man could do nothing with his chains or nails. He could not eat
them., and he had to sell them to live ; therefore he looked about for some-
body to buy them ; and no doubt the first middleman was a man who had a head
on his shoulders and saw some advantage in buying at a cheap rate these
damaged goods and turning a penny by it. That has gone on till there has
come to be a large number of middlemen, locally called “foggers.” AU middle-
men appear to be included under this term of fogger, and are supposed to he
equally bad. That is not so, by any means. There are hard, bad grinding men
w ho buy as middlemen and sell, some into the market and some to masters,
who are no better than themselves ; and there are middlemen who are
thoroughly honest, straightforward, and industrious men, employing a few men
in their shops and buying perhaps outside their shops, though that is very
seldom done by -them, a small quantity of chain, and Selling it sometimes
in the market and sometimes to masters ; and those are just as res[)ectable,
' and
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
415
'22nd March 1889.] Mr. Bassano. [^Continued^
and just as honest, as the best of the masters. But there is no
doubt that whatever grinding takes place in the chain trade is pretty well
included under the head of bad middlemen into whose hands the worthless
part, so to speak, of the chainmaking population have fallen, wiio are ground
by them without mercy ; that is, tue intemperate and the incompetent ; they
are not employed by good masters because they could not make chain, and
would not make chain if they could, that wmuld pass muster. They would spoil
a respectable master’s trade;, they consequently being employed by some men, fall
into the hands of those wiio manage to push these wretched goods into the market
at some price or other. That, I think, is one of the greatest sources of grinding in
the whole of the chain trade of what you call by the new word of “Sweating.”
Then another form of this is practised by them, and by the least respectable
portion of the masters. I'here is the grinding form of, first of all, pushing the
list down. It is disclaimed by all masters that you would speak to upon it, they
would say, “ Oh, no, we pay the list but the real fact is that with a great
number of the masters, when they have an order, it goes through something like
this kind of process. They send for half-a-dozen of their workmen and say,
“ What will you make so-and-so at ? ” “Oh, you know the price, so-and-so,
according to the list.” “ Ah, well, I have got an order, and if you cannot make
it for less than that I shall not take the order.” “ Oh, I shall not make it for
less than that ; ” and out he will go, and they will all follow suit. Now in the
course of the day those men v, ill turn up individually at the warehouse and will
offer to make it at the lower price, and they will not iiave put their heads to-
gether to know what they are going to offer, but each is thinking of under-
selling the others ; and so the result of it is that by their own offer, you
see, they lower the list price ; and that is one of the forms, by excessive com-
petition, in which that form of sweating is accomplished; and there does not
seem to be any remedy for such a state of things as that.
22757. You attribute that to the fact that the men are willing to undersell
each other ?
They are.
2 2758. In consequence of the fact that the master did not give them the order
at the list price ?
There is competition between the masters which leads them to get their
goods made at a lower price if possible ; and there is competition between the
men to get the order if possible, by a sacrifice of the list price. That is ex-
cessive competition. Then the next thing is the improper practices which
exist as between the master and the men. I daresay you have had before
you the last list, the four-shilling list. I will give you an instance of
what 1 mean. If you take the first column in that list, it is the common
chain. The small chain is mostly or entirely made by women. Now take
No. 3 , for which they profess to pay 9 5. per cwt. Assume a master to give
out iron to make No. 3 chain, it is a very common thing for them to give out
ihe iron which is appropriate to No. 4 chain. No. 4 chain, according to the
list price, is 10 s. 6 d. ; that will be 1 .s, 6 d. advantage to the master, clearly
sweated out of the woman. But they can go much further than that. Good
ordinary chain is priced at 13 ,9. for No. 4 . By giving them the iron for good
ordinary chains and paying them at the lower rate, they get the difference
between 9 ,y. and 13 s., that is 4 s. per cwt.
22759. I do not quite understand that.
By issuing iron of the “ good ordinary” quality they get the difference between
the 10 s. 6 d. and the 13 5 . in addition ; that is 4 s. above tlie .9 s.
22760. This is chain you are speaking of?
This is chain.
22761. In the first place you say that they issue the iron a size smaller than
what they pay for ?
Yes.
( 11 .)
3 4
22762. And
416
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
'22nd March \SS9.~\ Mr. Bassano. [Continued.
22762. And therefore they make a certain sum out of the worker in
that V ay ?
Yes.
22763. And in addition they issue iron of a superior quality to what they
pay for r
Yes, which ought to carry a higher price, and they pay them at the lower
price.
22764. And make something additional in that respect also ?
Yes, they get two grinds out of the poor wretch. That is one instance. Then
another instance is the tendency at all times to issue iron of a better quality, and
to pay for the lower quality, Then there is what I should call hard buying.
In the majority of chain manufactories there is a foreman, and that foreman
does the best he can with the workmen and workwomen. According to the
squeezability of the men as they come up to be paid, he will pay them for
ditferent lots of chain ; he will pay for the same quality and make of chain
different prices to different men.
22765. That is the warehousekeeper?
The warehouse keeper, the foreman of a warehouse, that, of course, is done
without the special knowledge, in most cases I have no doubt, of the employer ;
but I leave the Committee and the world to judge what amount of knowledge
the employer must have of his business, and wliether or not it is not done
with something more than his connivance. That does not apply to certain in
the trade ; I am not speaking of all of them, Imt I am speaking of the bulk of
them, and 1 think it does apply to the bulk of them. I think that a good fore-
man is a well understood adjunct to a chain warehouse ; most certainly he is to
a nail warehouse as well.
22766. Are you speaking of your own knowledge, or giving us wdrat you have
gathered from the people ?
To speak it from my own knowledge wmuld be to say that 1 have stood by
while the bargains have been struck. I have not done that, and, therefore, 1
cannot speak it of my own knowledge.
22767. But you believe that such is the case ?
Yes, I fully believe it ; I know it as well as I can know it without having stood
by them.
22768. You say that the foremen of the warehouses make bargains to get the
goods as cheap as they can, and that in your opinion that is done at any rate
with the connivance of their employers ; not in all cases of course, but in a great
many cases ?
When we are working in our own interest human nature is apt to be a little
blind to the lines of limitation. One man is not as good as another, and his
work is not of the same value as another’s ; and although you have a list price,
T feel sure it is absolutely impossible to pay that list price to every workman
alike. Workmen are not all the same; one workman makes good work, well
worth the list price, and another makes poor chain. When those two men take
their work into the shop it would be the foreman’s duty, I take it, not to give
the bad workman so much as he would give to the other man ; he would not
give him the list price, and I should consider that a fair commercial transac-
tion. But once begin the fair commercial transactions, and you may readily
see how easily it goes on to browbeating any man who comes up with his
work into taking something less than what he would like to take-
22769 Do you know whether it is the general custom of the masters and
manufacturers to give a discretion to the foremen of the warehouses ?
There is no doubt of it at all. I do not think that a good many of the
masters would like to know all that their foreman does.
22770. This superior iron is of course harder to w^ork up than the inferior
iron r
Yes, it is ; some of it is very hard.
22771. You
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
4ir
22nd March 1889.] Mr. Bassano. \^Continued.
22771. You spoke, I think, of the incompetent Jtnd the intemperate workmen
falling into the hands of these what you call, bad middlemen ; but is it not the
case that when the demand is slack, or when the masters anticipate slackness
in the demand, they give out no work at all, and then men who may he most
competent workmen have the alternative of either doing nothing or of working
for the middleman or logg\ r ?
1 am afraid you are opening a very painful feature in the trade ; you will
readily believe that if there is no trade, that would mean there is no sale. If a
master who has capital could not give out an order, a middleman who certainly
has no capital could not give out an order either. Therefore the only construc-
tion 1 can put upon that is this, that in slack times the master may decline to
to give out iron ; the workman, to live, must go to the mitldleman, must make
it at a reduced price, and I am .afraid that that finds its way back to the
master at a reduced price also. I can only put that construction upon it. It
may seem an uncharitable one, but I cannot see how else it can operate.
22772. At any rate, whether it is done \\ith that motive or not, in such a
case the most comjjetent and industrious workmen might find themselves obliged
to work for the fogger, the middleman?
They might, and possibly they do ; but I do not think there is much of
that.
22773. As to the trucking, have you anything to say upon that ; it will come in
appropriately here ?
There are two items I should first like to mention in connection with this
sweating ; one is the curse of long reckonings. In any other trade that I know
the reckonings rake place, at any rate not less frequently than fortnightly, —
weekly generally, but rarely extending beyond a fortnight. We have fre-
quently before our bench cases where there has not been a settlement for
months ; I can remember some few cases where there had not been a reckoning
for years. Now in those cases the workman is entirely at the mercy of the
master. The master keeps book>, the workman keeps none. It is a very com-
plicated trade for anyone to keep books in ; it is a most complicaied trade ; it
needs almost a lifetime to understand it from top to bottom ; but the workmen
cannot by any possibility keep an efficient check upon the master ; and you may
I'eadilv understand that an unprincipled master may make no little pull out of
the workman under such circumstances as that. There was a case before our
bench the week before last, where a man was summoned by his master for having
(aken out iron and not returned it, technically summoned for the value of the
iron, and for damage in not fulfilling the order ; that is the common form which
this kind of summons takes.
22774. Do I understand that the summons is for a debt, that the value of the
iron is a debt ?
It is under the Employers’ and Workmen’s Act that a summons is heard
before a court of summary jurisdiction, instead of going before the county court,
where there are differenees between employers and workmen. In this case there
was a set-off in respect of iron that the workman alleged that he had supplied
during the previous 12 months.
22775, Of manufactured iron, you mean ?
Of manufactured iron that he had supplied to make up oiders that he
had received where he had had insufficient iron supplied to him ; and he had
had a considerable amount of money coming to him upon this iron which he
had advanced to complete previous orders with. As a matter of fact they were
shut out ot court i)y the six months’ limitation, which makes it necessary to
take aci ion within six months ; they were shut out; be could not go back to
them ; and therefore we were obliged to make an order upon this poor man for
tins iron. We had no alternative. He had had the iron, and said he had had
the iron. I should like to tell you the whole of this case, because it illustrates
what I have been saying. He had had the iron out, and had had it worked up
into chain. He was told at the warehouse that they would not receive it unless
he would take 3 s. for it instead of 4 s. He said “ No, I shall not do anything
of the sort.” He said “The chain is good” (it was alleged that it w'as bad) ;
(IT) 3G “Iwill
418
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
12nd March Mr. BaSSANO. \^Continued.
“ I will take it back Hgain.” He took tlie chain back again, and he sc'ld the
chain to one of these very peo])le, a fogger, a lower grade of master than the
one he was employed by ; he sold him the chain for 3 5. 6 d. a cwt., and he did
not account to Ids master for the money so we were obliged to make an order
upon him for the amount of the iron, and we could not bring into the account
the iron which he alleged that he bad supplied ; vve could not go into the
question ; but he alleged that there w'as iron which had been supplied bv him
extending over a period of 12 months antecedent to that over which they had
had no settlement whatever. Now^ such cases as those are frequent, and I call
them one of the most tibominable and hateful forms of sweatini*' to which these
poor people are subjected.
2277G. Have you any suggestion to make as to a lemedy for these long
reckonings ?
The only remedy 1 know is lather a drastic one, and that is to make debts
irrecoverable* on either side; it is the otdy one 1 know' of, but that wouhl be a
very drastic one. I do not see how you can make a legislative reckoning any
way. Tiiere is another matter, that is the lending of money. That does not
prevail to the same extent as it used to do ; but i have known a question come
before us in a case that came into court where a man had lent money, and
where 3 erhy?\ You told us just now that the workmen have not
trust enough in one another to build a co-operative workshop ; have you had
any experience of co-operative workshops elsewhere 't
Co operation has been talked about for a good many years in our district, and
there is, I believe, one co operative workshop ; but it has never been extended
any further ; the men do not appear to believe in it. The fact is they do not
trust one another; to use their own expression, they say, “ How am I to know
what he is a-doing while 1 am at work ? ” That is the way it comes in.
22851. But you are aware that co-operation has succeeded to a very great
extent in other parts of the country ?
In some things it has, I believe ; very possibly it may here when there is more
intelligence.
22852. But you say that if it has not taken hold of the people in this dis-
triet, it is on account of their distrust of one another?
That is so.
22853. Then you told us that you thought it ought to be made a universal
rule that no wages should be paid in a publichouse ?
Certainly.
22854. Is not that a rule that would be very easily evaded?
1 do not think so. It is penal if any one conneeted wdlh a colliery pays
colliers in a public-house ; they can be summoned and fined ; and that might be
the same in any other trade surely.
22855. But if the employer takes the man whom he pays into the road
opposite a public-house and pays him in the road, is that a violation of the
Act ?
But that would apply equally to persons connected with a colliery, and that
never has been known to be done.
22856. You are not aware that there ever has been any considerable evasion
of the law in that way ?
No ; when the law was made, the paying in public-houses was practically
dropped.
22857. You spoke of the nail trade ; if I understand you rightly, as a decay-
ing industry ?
Yes.
( 11 .)
3 H 2
22858. Is
428
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
22nd March 1889 .] Mr. Bassano.
[ Continued.
22858. Is that on account of the competition of machinery ?
Yes; eventually, I think, the nail trade will cease altogether, except in so far
as certain little peculiar makes are concerned which do not admit of being made
by machinery ; and they are only used in such small quantities that it would
not pay to erect machinery to make them ; but year by year I think it is really
getting less.
22859. A great many people who are nailmakers are chainmakers also, are
they not ?
No, that is hardly so. The person who makes nails almost always makes one
make of nails ; they do that because it is a sort of mechanical process, and they
can only acquire the proper make of that nail by a considerable amount of
training. They do not readily abandon it to go to make another sort of nail,
unless under extreme necessity ; and in the same way they do not take to
making chain except from sore necessity ; it takes them a good while to go
from nailmaking into chainmaking.
22860. But at the same time, if the nail trade is decaying, do not a great
many, who would otherwise learn the nailmaking, come into the chainmaking
business, and does not that account for a great deal of the distress in the chain-
making ?
Yes ; the children of the nailmakers come into the chainmaking instead of
the nailmaking ; and there are certain forms of chains which are very miserable
things, which the women can make and earn a few pence for their house-
keeping in addition to what their husbands earn, and so they come into the
trade in an illegitimate sort of way, and they tend to bring down wages very
considerably.
22861. How do you mean “illegitimate ”?
If a person goes into a trade where there is no room i'or him to make
inferior goods at an inferior price, I call that illegitimate ; it is not fair to those
already in the trade; they do it to bring in a few extra pence, to the detriment
of those already in the trade.
22862. You think a man who has one employment should not go into another
trade than his own, because he increases the competition?
That is the effect of his going into it. Suppose a collier W!)rks in a pit and
gets reasonable wages, is it fair for him to work after hours at night and so
bring down the wages of workmen in the chain or nail trade ? He ought to be
satisfied with what he has earned for himself in his own trade.
22863. Would not that apply to every form of industry?
I suppose it would ; it is one of those impracticable problems which you
cannot deal with.
22864. Did I understand you that there were many colliers who worked only
two or three days a week ?
Yes.
22865. And the same thing happens in the nail trade?
Yes, with both chainmakers and nailmakers. I am sorry to say that they
leave their wives and children to work ; they do not believe in their leaving off ;
when they take their dog out they do not take their wives and children
out.
22866. The work is done by the family, but not done by all the members of
the family who ought to do it ?
No.
22867. Then I think you said that if you saw your way to manage it, you
would wish to prevent any married women from working in shops, on the
ground of the consequent neglect of their homes ?
I would indeed.
22868. But you said that you would not extend that to widows?
No ; because if a woman loses her husband she is no longer a married woman ;
she is a widow.
22869. But
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
429
22nd March 1889.] Mr. Bassano. [^Continued.
22S69. But may she not, in that case, have children to look after who equally
require to he attended to ?
Yes ; but then you eoine face to face with this difficulty, that if she is left a
widow she must live, and it is rather better to let her work in the shop with
her children as they come to be of workable age, than to prevent it, and throw
her on to the poor rates, which pauperises a generation.
22870. You consider it an evil, but the more tolerable of two evils between
which choice has to be made ?
Yes. 1 should draw the line at the married woman ; as long as she has
household duties to attend to let her not ruin her home by working in the
shop.
22871. Would you say that of a married woman whose husband was unable
to get work ?
If I had to adjudicate upon that case, I should call her a widow, I think.
22872. Is not, in your judgment, a good deal of this movement in favour of
getting rid of female labour created by the desire to obtain a monopoly in the
market for men ?
Yes, undoubtedly. If the work of women could be done without, there is no
man in England that would be more glad to see women delivered from this kind
of hard factory work than I should be ; but it is no harder for them than all
other factory work is in other places. You have women and girls working in
all the towns. Look at all the factory women in Lancashire ; they must work
at something, Imagine them kept in idleness ; they would be none the better
for that. After all, light chaintnaking is not an onerous task for a girl ; it may
be dirty, but dirt washes off. It does not necessitate anything but dirt.
22873. Earl BrownlowJ] I think you stated that you only knew one co-ope-
rative shop in the district ; how was that started ?
1 believe it was something in connection with a person named King. I know
nothing of that personally ; I have only heard that there was a co-operative
shop in the district.
2-^874. Do you know whether it has been a success r
No, I believe not ; I believe it is a failure in every sense of the word ; and I
know (and that is the only way my knowledge comes in) that the workmen do
not believe in co-operative shops.
22875. You cannot tell us anything about the management of it?
No, I cannot. I know that the men are very much against factories; they
prefer the liberty of their shop. How far they would prefer that liberty, if you
curtailed the liberty of working when they pleased by compelling them to work
at stated hours, I do not know ; they might then be more willing to go into the
factory, especially as I think they get a better average of wages in the factory
than they do in their shops. But that again I think is a false quantity. It may
probably arise from the fact that it is only picked men who are put into factories.
Therefore when you say that a man in a factory earns a better wage, the pro-
bability may well be that he does so because he is a better workman, and a
steadier workman, and that it has not anything to do with the fact of his work-
ing there. There is one thing (I do not know whether you consider that it
comes within the scope of your inquiry) which I should like to mention. One
of the things that has assisted in working down wages is a dishonest practice
which exists among chain manufacturers of, so to call it, watering their iron. It
acts indirectly upon the wages. It is thus ; an order is put on tlie market for a
chain of a particular make, made with a particular iron. It is taken up by some one
at a price utterly irreconcileable with the price at which that iron can be
bought; and as a matter of fact it is done in this way. He buys, say it is a
ton of chain ; he will buy a cwt. (of course this is only an example ; it would
be more than that) of the iron required which is branded with a particular
mark, the iron which is ordered ; he cuts it up into links, which are distri-
(IL) 3H3 buted
430
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
22nd March 1889 ] Mr. Bassano. \^(.'ontinued.
buted throughout the whole length of the chain, and he makes the rest of the
chain of a common class of iron ; and that is supposed then to be tested and to
have a test certificate ; and it goes into the market as chain of that quality duly
certificated with the test. x\s a ntafcter of fact it is nothing of the sort, be-
cause the strength of a chain is only the strength of its weakest link, and
therefore it is a common chain. But it also acts in this way on the workman,
that he gets reduced wages ; he gets the wages of a common chain for making
that which pui ports to be a best chain. I know that that is so. It is a most
infamous j)ractice. There aie huge quantities of chain made (and this again
come s out of the workman) sold with the test certificate attached to them,
which have never seen the testing machine, and on which only one-third wages
had been paid instead of the wages that ought to have been paid.
•22876. Earl of Aherdeen.~\ With regard to the unfair system of giving out
iron which you mentioned, has there been an organised attempt on the part of
the work-people to resist that system ?
I never heard of any. At meetings, when they are on strike, those things are
of course freely mentioned, and therefore you may hold that it was included in
the objects for which they struck, and no doubt that would have had some de-
terrent effect upon it as it did on trucking at that time ; but I never heard of
organised resistance to that particular thing.
22877. Then you mentioned that 20 would be paid to a man and 7 s. 6 d.
to a woman for work in chainmuking ; would that be for work of the same
quality and quantity?
No ; because work is so very different in detail. Throughout the district
you know, not two men may be making the same thing, and they may not be
getting the same money.
22878. But I mean as to the proportion between wages paid to women and
men ; do those figures that you gave us represent the difference ?
1 think they represent a fair average of what women and men doing work of
the class that I gave, are earning on whatsoever work they are engaged. When
I use the word “ average,” I mean this, that women working on certain classes
of w(.'i k get very much lower wages than that, because their particular class of
work is only paid for at that low rate ; others work on a higher class of work
and get a higher rate. The figures I gave would be the average.
22879. ^ distriet that if a dozen men were working together
and a dozen women were working together in the same shop, the women
would very likely do more than the men in the same time ; is that your
experience ?
1 think as a rule women are (1 do not want to use the word ofifensively)
more patient beasts of burden than men. I am afraid the experience of the
world goes to that.
•..'2880. What I want to get at is this, are the women paid a much lower
rate than the men for their work ?
Yes ; the work the women do is of a class which necessitates a low'er rate of
wages.
22881. But deducting that element, is there still a lower rate of renumera-
tion given 10 them for similar work ?
They do not do similar work. There is a class of work which belongs to
women which is rarely or never done by the men ?
22882. So that it is a little difficult to compare them accurately ?
It is.
22833. As to the witnesses, are you aware that we had the advantage of
having your name suggested to us by the same gentleman I think who sug-
gested Mr. Homer, and others to whom you have referred?
Of
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
431
22nd March 1889,] Mr. Bassano. ^Continued.
Of course I am not aware of anything with regard to that. I am not aware
that it is an advantage.
•22884. Mr. Homer, to whom von have referred, i'- the chairman of an asso-
ciation of the men ?
Yes. •
22885.. Is that uhat you meant \^ hen you spoke of him as an agitator ?
Yes. '
22886. Does that imply an agitator?
Well, I (!o not love agitators. After a good many years’ experience 1 have
always found that the men who are paid by the men and call themselves their
secretaries or chairmen are very active men in fomenting differences between
masters and men, and therefore 1 am not particularly fond of them. I think
they are disa;zreeable necessities, for I do not wish for a moment to say that the
men ought not to organise ; 1 think it is much better for both masters and men
for them to organise, and 1 think that unorganised men are placed in a very
disadvantageous (>osition; and it may be expecting something more than
human to expect their directors to be just what one would like them to be.
22887. There was nothing intended of an opprobrious character in your
remarks ?
Oh dear, no.
22888. You said we had had the extreme cases before us ; is it not desirable
that if we have the extreme on one side we should nave some extreme
cases on the other side, so as to enable us to form an intermediate estimate ?
I tliink you have had the one extreme without the other; only some masters
at the other extreme ; and it appears to me that it might be desirable (I do not
know what your Lordships think about that) to have some bona fide average
chainmakers. 1 think I could undertake, as a disinterested party, if you would
wished me to do so, to send you two or three. 1 dare say you would not like to
give more time to it than they would occupy, but I think it would be well that
you should have an average chain maker.
22889. Speaking of the average chainmakers, is there much discontent
among tiiem as to the conditions of their work ?
There is that wiiich you find in all workmen, a disinclination to give }'ou
their full earnings. It is a very rare thing to find a man who will come and
very readily admit the full amount that he earns ; it does not matter whether
you apply to a workman or to a master.
22890. But from your knowledge, do you think that they are as contented as
other classes of workmen in the same position?
Yes, certainly.
2289?. Under no great disability as regards their work
No, I consider chainmaking a very good industry indeed.
22892. Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.'\ You suggested that the hours of labour
might be regulated according to districts ; and did you say according to trades
too ?
I was speaking then only of this chain trade.
22893. But you said it would be an advantage that it should vary in different
districts ?
Yes, it might suit the conditions of the same trade, for instance, to have a
day beginning at one hour in Rowley and in Halesowen at another hour. I do
not say that it would, but it has been suggested to me that it would. I do not see
why it should. If I were doing it I am afraid I should commit the blunder
of fixing one day throughout the whole area. I daresay I might go wrong
as I am not a practical master, but I should do that and take the risk of its
turning out badly.
( 11 .)
3 H 4
22894. And
432
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
22tid March 1889.] Mr. Bassano. \_Conlinued.
J2894. And who wouLI you suggest that the settling of that should be left
to ?
I think that there should be mutual agreement as to when the day shouhi
begin between the masters and the men. There are things agreed upon
between so many masters and so many representatives of the men, let them
agree when their day shall begin, and let that be the legislative day for the
following twelve months, with two hours for meals.
22895. Would you say that the factory inspector should call a meeting of
that kind and settle what the hours should be?
Let it be known that legislation would cause that to be done, and it would
not rest with the factory inspector, but with the trade.
22896. But I mean in what practical way would you suggest that the Act
should direct that hour to be fixed, if the provisions were put into an Act ; and
I was suggesting that it might be left to the factory inspector to call a meeting
and find out what w^as the general opinion in the particular district, and then
give him power to settle what the hour might be ?
I think that might do, and that that should be the legislative day of that
district.
22897. Lord MonkswellP\ As regards married women’s work, I understand
you are against that, first of all for domestic reasons, secondly, because it leads
to lower wages by wh.at you call illegitimate trade ; is it the common practice
for wives of men employed as miners to work at chain and nailmaking
under prices, and for men employed in the day time in some other occupation
to work at night in these trades under prices ?
Yes.
22898. Common enough to influence wages?
Yes ; men are ready to turn a penny by working over hours. I do not think
you can interfere as regards men,
22899. Chairman.'] Would you suggest that the inspectors should be en-
trusted with further powers?
Yes.
22900. Do you consider that the inspection is sufficient as it is ; I mean, that
there are enough inspectors?
1 do not think that there are. 1 think that if you are to make inspection
really efficient, you must have more than there are now. Our present inspector
is a very good one indeed, Mr. Hoare, and I cannot conceive that he can do
the justice to our district he would wish to do. Perhaps your Lordship would
ask him that question when he is before you.
22901. Do you know whether there has been any attempt made by masters
and men combining to adhere to the list of prices ?
In the nail trade some time ago (I think you have it in Mr. Burnett’s Report)
that was so. I was cognisant of it at the time; in faet, at that time, I was
asked to endeavour to arbitrate between the masters and the men. I was very
glad afterwards that I did not ; because where you have got people on either
side who do not intend to adhere to what is agreed to, it is a very disagreeable
thing to arbitrate.
22902. Have you read Mr. Burnett’s Report ?
Yes.
22903. From what you have said I should gather that you think he has taken
a dark view of the situation ?
1 think it is a very good report. Considering that he must have seen
the darkest side of the trade, I think it does him immense credit.
22904. Do you think he fell into the hands of these gentlemen who, you sup-
pose, influenced Mr. Oram ?
I doubt whether Mr. Burnett saw much out of their company.
22905. Did
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
433
22nd March 1889.] Mr. Bassano. \^Continued.
22905. Did I ask you how you gathered this information which you have
given us as to the rates of wages, or did you tell us ; I mean did you get it from
conversation with the operatives, or take it from the masters ?
I have seen masters’ accounts ; I have talked with many operatives, what I
should call average chainmakers, and I infer that that is about the average,
from all that 1 have heard.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Monday ne.xt,
at Eleven o’clock.
( 434 )
( 435 )
Die LiincBy 25® Martii^ 1889.
LORDS PRESENT:
Earl Brownlow.
Viscount Gordon {Earl of Aberdeen).
Lord Foxford {Earl of Limerick).
Lord Kenry {Earl of Dunraven and
Mount-Earl ).
Lord Sandhurst.
Lord Monkswell.
Lord KENRY (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl), in the Chair
Mr. CHARLES C. W. HOARE, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is
Examined, as follows :
22906. Chairnian.~\ You are an inspector under the Factory and Workshop
Act, are you not r
Yes.
22907. For which district ?
For the distriet centering at Wolverhampton, which includes the whole of tlie
chain and nail trades, with the exception of Bromsgrove and Walsall.
22908. Can you give us the size and extent of your district ?
It consists of Wolverhampton, Dudley, Sedgley, and Gornal, down as far
as Churchill, including Halesowen. Rowley R.egis, the north of Shropshire, and
Montgomeryshire; I have one junior inspector to assist me.
22909. Do you know the population at all in your district?
No, I cannot tell you now, because I have not got the figures with me. I
have here some headings of evidence, as I should like to give it, if it would
assist your Lordships {handing in a copy of the same).
22910. Have you any idea of the number of factories in your distriet ?
No; I have not brought my liooks up with me. 1 can give you that, of
course, exactly.
22911. Could you give the number of factories and workshops ?
I can send it to you.
22912. And the population too ?
Yes. 1 can give you an approximate number of the chain and nail shops.
22913. Will you please do so?
From the registers 1 estimate the numbers are 650 ehain and 550 nail shops ;
that would be under the Act, one section of it or another. There are also 20
chain factories and 4 nail faetories. Of this number about 200 ehain works
and 250 nail shops are only employing adult labour, that is, adult labour where
women are working. Besides that, there would be about 550 chain shops
and 500 nail shops that would not be under any section of the Act at all as far
as regards inspection.
22914. How do you define a workshop?
There are four classes of workshop. Under the 14th section of the Act the
labour whieh is spoken of would be performed in a workshop where children
(11.) 3I2 or
436
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
25th March 1889.] Mr. IIoAKE. \_Continued.
or young persons work. The second class of workshop would be a workshop
where only adult labour is employed, including women.
22915. Wliere is that ?
If your Lordship looks at Section 15 of the Act, you will see with respect
to the employment of women in workshops that is where women are employed
with men. By “ women ” it means persons over 18 years of age. There is
then a third class of workshop, which is described as a domestic worksliop. A
domestic workshop is one where work is carried on in a room which is a portion
of a dwelling-house-
22916. That is in the 16 th section ?
Under the 16 th section. Those really domestic workshops are very rare in
the chain and nail trades, because an inspector does not consider a shop a
domestic shop unless there is intercommunication with the dwelling-house, and
these sho|)S, with very rare exceptions, have not that; those that have are only
where wash kitchens, or something of that sort, have been turned into a work-
shop. And then, of course, there is the shop under Section 98 , where the work
is casually carried on. That section has not, to my knowledge, a single nail or
chain shop coming under it.
22917. Then I understand that a great number of the shops that other-
wise would come under the Act do not come under the Act owing to the fact
that, though they are associated v. ith the dwelling-house, they do not form a
part of it ?
Not so ; they do not claim the. exemption of being considered domestic work-
shops, and they come under the Act.
22918. They do not come under inspection at all ?
They all come under inspection ; I was wushing to point out to you the
different classes of w'orkshops there are, for reasons that yem will see later.
As I mentioned before, there are a number of workshops that are not under the
Act. Those workshops are all visited, to make sure that they are not, and re-
visited from time to time ; since to-day a workshop may be one where there is
only a man and his wife working, but, perhaps, if trade got more brisk, we
should find them employing one or tw^o youijg hands. Therefore we do not
enter them on the registers, but we cannot pass them by as not under the Act,
for any day they may become so.
22919. Out of the total number that you have given us, how many are not
subject to inspection under one of these tour sections r
The two numbers I have given you, 550 and 500 . I am always speaking of
chain before nail ; I will keep to the same order.
22920. Those would be shops where members of the family were working ?
Those would be shops where only a man and his wife or men are employed.
Those that employ any young hands or women are under regular inspection,
and on our books.
22921 . Does it make any difference to the inspection whether [leople working
in the shop are working directly for the owner of the shop, or whether they are
working for themselves and hiring the stall ?
Yes, it makes a great deal of difference. If they hire a stall, they virtually
become occupiers under the Act. A part of a workshop may be considered a
separate wunkshop ; and in that way the powers of the inspector to prevent the
overworking of female labour are entirely frustrated, as women, or girls even,
paying rent for a stall may snap their fingers at us.
22922. They become independent r
Yes ; because the chief inspector holds that you cannot prosecute a woman
for overworking herself; if we could legally do that, it would be a great
advantage to put a stop to it; and in the same way it is not usual for us to
proceed against a man for overworking his wife ; it is looked upon as a thing
that you cannot prosecute him for.
22923. Is
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
437
25th March 1889.] Mr. IIoAKE. \_Continuc(U
22923 . Is that system of letting out and hiring stalls very common ?
Yes ; and it increases as the workpeople discover that l>y that means they can
get the better of us. For instance, if we go into a shop where a man’s daughter
is working with himself and his \ufe, and we stop him working her beyond
seven o’clo k at night, he will take a stall for her in the next shop, perhaps, and
so get her out of our way. With refeience to these diU'erent classes of work-
shops, in those that come under the first division, which are, we will say, work-
shops proper, their hours of work can 01 dy be from six to six, or from seven
to seven. Thev h ive to keep a copy of the rules up, and the liours of work and
meals down on it. With regard to those workshops, an inspector can easily
enforce tlie Act. But under the second class, where adult women are
working, they can work IO 5 hours a day any time they please between
six o’clock in the morning and nine at night; they are not oldiged to
put up any rules, or hours of work, or time for meals ; and unless you had
an inspector sitting at the door of each shop, I w ill defy him to control their
hours of work. I have \isited many between eight and nine o'clock at night,
and questioned them as to the hours they begin work in the morning.
They will reply, “ We begin at seven,” or eight, as the case maybe ; and when 1
accuse them of having worked more than the lO^ hours, they will say, “ Oh, we
stopped two hours for dinner, and an hour for tea,” or something to that effect;
or they will turn round and say, “ We are staliers.” A staller keeps neople must leave off at seven ;
but where they are working without young people they can make 10^ hours a day,
and therefore many of the irregularities we iiave to put a stop to, oceur where
the adult women go on working after the young people have gone away,
thinking they can do it, because the adult women in the next shop can do it
to make up that 10 5 hours, or they say it is to make up that IO5 hours’; no
doubt it exceeds tliat, but you cannot prove it. But the general disposition of
these people is to stop the young ones at seven o’clock under all eircuin-
stances.
23068. What time would they begin ?
They begin at seven ; they may begin at six in some cases, and occasionally
an inspector may find one working at six o’clock ; but I think where irregu-
larities are practised, where oveiiitnu is practised, it is more often in the
evening than in the morning.
( 11 .)
3 3
23069. And
454
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
25th March Mr. Hoare. {^Continued.
23061). And the children, you think, do fret their proper meal times '
1 am sure of it. Then Mr. Juggins is asked ; “ Do you know wliether
they have been interfered with in many cases by the factory inspector?”
and he says, “ 1 hey have in a few cases only.” I maintain ihat they
have in a great many; and I told your Lordship that I had had 150 pro-
secutions; and that, considering the number under the Act, is a large pro-
portion.
23070. Do you know what locality Mr. Juggins is speaking of?
I take it he is speaking of the chain trade.
2307]. You do not know whether he is speaking of a locality outside your
district r
No ; the only part outside my district in that direction is Bromsgrove ; and
1 do not think he goes there at all.
23072. With regard to the evidence you comment on, unless it is necessary, I
think, as you have not got the absolute words of the witnesses, it is better that
you should not mention the names ; of course, if it is necessary to bring out
any point, you can ; otherwise you need merely mention with what you disagree r
With regard to the shops themselves, a good many new ones have been built,
and shops are being rebuilt at the present time. I consider that the shops are
improving. The rent, I think, should be stated at from 2 s. Q d. per week.
23073. The rent of house and shop?
The rent of house and shoj). I think they usually charge at the rate of about
9 d. for the shop itself.
23074. That, of course, would depend upon the size of it ?
That would depend upon the size of it ; because the rent would be from
2 s. Qd. probably up to 4 s.
23075. What is the general size of the shop ?
The shops are large enough to comply with the requirements laid down by
the Home Secretary as to the cubical space that is required ; that is 250 feet
for eadi worker.
23076. 1 mean how many workers do they generally accommodate ?
Sometimes only two, and sometimes as many as 12 and 14 , or it may be 20 .
23077. We have heard a place described as a shop which in reality consisted
of Several shops in the same yard ?
Yes ; sometimes a man will own two or three shops in the same yard. I do
not know how that is arranged witli the landlord ; whether he takes it otf the
landlord, or whether he is a sub-tenant off the occupier. One of the greatest
evils in this trade which causes the work to be badly paid, is the practice that
these people resort to of underselling each other, especially when trade is slack.
23078. That is one of the reasons that have been given before the Committee
why the factory system would be better than the workshop system r
The factory system, no doubt, leads to co-operation amongst the workers
themselves to get a fair rate of wages, but I do not think even that advantage
weighs favourably towards it. In a trade like this, where immorality is, I
think, unfairly spoken of, the factory system tends to encourage it rather
than otherwise ; because the girls would go to the factory, and they would not
have the controlling influence of fathers or mothers, which they now get in their
own shops. Of course this undei-selling of labour is often encouraged by the
smaller masters.
23079. You mean that they take advantage of it?
Yes, they take advantage of it, and they absolutely encourage it ; that is to
say, on a person going to them for work they will say, “ Oh, I have none to
give out to you to-day ; the price is too high ; if you can do it for so much less
you can have it.” I think if you had these suggested factories absolutely built,
you would not get the workpeople to go to them, they would hold aloof from
them. Mr. Homer has taken several opportunities, at meetings of these chain
makers, to make statements, publicly maintaining that the factorv inspector
seldom goes near these shops, that he does not put a stop to overtime working ;
that his visits are at long intervals, and that he might do a great deal more than
he does to put a stop to this irregular working.
23080. You
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
455
25th March 1889.J Mr. Hoare. \_C ■ , ..^ ;W(' >Wr#;
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( 4 C 9 )
Die Martis^ 26 *' Martii^ 1889 .
LORDS PRESENT:
Earl of Derby.
Lord Kenry (^Earl of Dunraven and
Lord Monksavell.
Lord Thring.
Lord Basing.
Mount- iLarV),
Lord KENRY (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl), in the Chair.
Mr. JABEZ smith, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is Examined, as
follows :
23-203. Chairman.^ Are there any corrections you wish to make in the
evidence you gave on the former occasion, when you were before the
Committee ?
Yes ; there is one correction I wish to make in my answer to Question 4900 .
23204. The question was : “ Is it in yonr opinion true that inferior thread is
used?” and you say, “ Yes, I know it is in cases; in fact, I have used a smaller
thread myself sometimes ; I have known cases where the shaft tugs, instead of
bein<>’ some six-cord, as our orders were, were four-cord outside row and three-
cord inside row ” ?
In my statement before, instead of saying shaft tug I called it a back band
tug. In the evidence given before they liad been called shaft tugs, all through
till it came to my turn, and 1 have no doubt when the shorthand notes were
altered it was put shaft tug instead of back band. I mentioned that back band
tug ; that is the same as the shaft tug, only that I called it a back band tug.
23205. It is merely a verbal correction that you wish to make there ?
It makes the whole of the answer come another way, that the shaft tug Avas
four and three C(ud instead of being six cord. I have sewn the shall tugs
mvself with a five cord instead of a six cord, and the back bands I have known
cases where they have been dune with a four cord outside row and a three
cord inside row. I have not done the back band with that myself, but I have
known cases. But, nevertheless, as the statement stands in both it is correct,
and it can be proved to be true. Tugs have been sewn with a four and a three
cord.
2320G. You mean that you can prove it ?
4 Ye have Avitnesses Avho can prove that ; only that I wished to correct that
as being in my statement. Then I Avill refer to the evidence at Question
4734.
23207. That is not your evidence at all ?
^o, it is not my evidence at all; but I wish to corroborate the evidence of
another witness.
23208. That is as to sub-contracting?
That is as to sub-contracting. That is not a correction.
23209. You want to say something as to sub-contracting?
Yes, I Avish to corroborate that, that sub-contracting did exist and still
exists. For instance, Bramstone of King’s Cross sub-contracts at the present
time.
( 11 .)
3 N 3
23210. Do
470
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
26^/^ March 1889.J
Mr, Smith.
[ Continued.
23210. Do you mean by “ sub-contracts ” that he puts out the order to
somebody else, or takes the order from somebody else ?
He takes the order from the Government and sub-contracts the working
part to a sweater. I will produce a pattern of the belts that Bramstoue is
sub-contracting. It is a contract for some old sling belts made as long ago
as 18 / 0 ; they are gone out of use. 'they have been cut up and made into an
ordinary 1882 pattern waist belt. Idiey were sewn complete ; that is just a
straight strip mt out, and the man has to prepare it, punch it, prick it,
and do all the work that is required to it to make it up as you see it now, for
' 2 d That is close upon an hour’s work. The difficult job is not altogether
in sewing the buckles in, but what we call the buckling up. You will see this
buckle {pointing to it) is put in first. This tab has a loop sewn on, a sliding
loop. Tiiis buckle is set in first when the strap is straight. This end here
having no buckle on it is passed through the loop; then this eye is dropped
on, and the end of the strap is [lassed again through the loop forming a loop
for it to come into [describing), and the tab is here. The buckle should be
put in the third hole. Well, a good many of tliese are called women’s work.
I do not know wliether your Lordship wouM have any opinion upon it your-
self, about its being fit for women to do. This is not a fair sample ; it is rather
a light one; i have some \ ery much heavier at home. Then you have a loop
on that has to be pulled up to the eye tight, and the loop is bound to fit
tight. So that necessarily, you see, the work of pulling up here is very hard,
and is a work most unsuitable for women.
2321 1. Do you mean that it is hard for women to do r
Some of them are too hard.
23212. Some of the belts?
Some of these belts want too much pulling up ; it requires a lot of strength
to pull it up to the eye. This one [pointing) slips up comparatively easy. I
have had some of them where I have had to put out tlie utmost of my strength
to pull them up. I had some last week. The stitching in this belt is \^d. ; that
loop is sewn to the tab first. The next slide loop is made up; the buckle is
sewn in one end ; then, of course, it is slipped on. Then, as I told you before, this
loop comes on over to pull the eye up tight ; then you drop this buckle on the
belt loose, then put this side loop half on, at least over the strap once ; then
place the snake on the belt, and put the end back through the loop again, and
this side buckle sliding loose here [pointing), this end is placed through the
buckle, the tongue through the hole which has to be down so, and stiched so,
after the belt is put together [describing it).
23213. Lord Thring.] What is the object of this long description?
I am describing the work there is in making up one belt.
23214. Chairman.'] You want to contrast the amount of work in making
one belt with the amount that is paid for it ?
Quite so. The last thing is to put the two patches on with the dees. There
is supposed to be a foot of sewing round these [pointing) an inch and a-half
each way, six inches round each patch. To complete that bidt, prepare it and
stitch it, takes close upon an hour, and that is twopence, at the present time,
complete.
232 . I understand from you that that belt is made out of arj old pattern belt ?
Yes. '
23216. And that the contractor has that all done by women?
Ao ; some of this is done by w omen and some by men.
23217. That the workman or workwoman gets twopence?
Twop( nee for the belt complete.
23218. Have they got to find any material ?
They have to find the hemp and wax.
23219. And it takes a good workman an hour?
Nearly an hour, not quite an hour.
23220. How
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
4/1
2Qth March 1889.] Mr. Smith. [^Continued.
23‘iJo. llow much does the Government j)ay for this article?
I do not know at all what the Government are paying.
23221. Did vou make that belt yourself?
I did not m.'.ke this one up ; i! is is a pattern. I had a quantity out, but
had not time to make up one before I came in.
23222. You began by telling us that the contractor put out the work to some-
body else?
This is put out to a sweater. The contract originally is Biamst one’s at
King’s Cross.'
23223. know what the contract price is ?
No.
23224. Von do not know wiiat the sweater gets ?
The sweater prepares these and gets twopence ; he pays 1 J //. for stitching
them ; he keeps a halfpenny for the pre[)aring.
23225 You told us just now that the workman or workwoman got two-
pence ?
Yes, if they do them complete. Those that take them out and do them com-
plete get the twopence ; twopence is the price out from the contractor.
23226. And in the case where it goes to a sweater, the sweater does the
preparing aad gets a halfpenny for it?
That is so.
23227. Haw long does it take him to prepare them ?
It does not take him so very many minutes ; I could not say exactly now ; I
know how long it would take to make one complete.
23228. Which would pay a good workman best, to have some one to pre-
pare them, and deduct the halfpenny for it, or to do it all complete ?
I do not think it makes a great difference either way ; the sweater does not
make a great pull out of these.
23229. And you do not know what the Government price is, you have
told us ?
No, I do not.
23230. Has there been anv change in the prices since you gave evidence
before the Committee^
Yes, there has l>een a slight alteration, but the prices are not at all satis-
factory.
23231. You suggested in evidence that the Government ought to fix a price
list ?
Yes, I did.
23232. Has anything been done in that way?
Something in that way has been done, but the price is not at all satisfactory.
At present the average wage of the men is about 15 .?. per week on the price
which has been fixed by tlie War Office, which is signed by the Director of
Contracts.
23233. Do you know what the piices are?
^ es, I do.
23234. Have you got them with you ?
I think I remember what they are, and I think I have them with me, too.
At Colonel Wallace's (that is a new contractor}, 1 think he got the contract
somewhere about early last November for a belt, a new pattern, what they call
the Slade-Wallaee pattern, they are paying 2 d. for stitching, with the buckling
included. Part of the same contract was given to Pullman, and is sub-contracted
to Almond, at Bermondsey, and Bryan, of Dacre-street. Bryan’s are paying
2 1 //. for the same belt stitching and no buckling; the buckling is done for
them. The pouch of Wallace, the thirty-rounds pouch, was previously paid at
(11.) 3 N 4 C) d., but
472
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2Gth March 1889.]
Mr. Smith.
[ Continued,
C but is now paid at 8 ^/., the stitching. Bryan’s are paying 8| d. for the
same pouch for the same work. Hebbert’s are paying equal to I s. or 1 s. -^d.,
and it is all part of the same contract.
23235. The same article ?
Precisely the same contract; it is a contiact of 10,000, split up between
four contractors.
23236. Am I to understand, then, that these various prices for the same
article were fixed by the Director of Contracts ?
They are supposed to be. They have had a price sent round to all the con-
tractors which has been signed by the Director, and the i)rice that was sent
round varied at first, but some of the prices have been raised. In the case of
Colonel Wallace’s and Hebbert’s, they started at the same price that they are
paying now.
23237. Lord Thi ’mg.] Do you mean that Colonel Wallace sends out four
contracts to four different men and names different prices to the different
men ?
No, Colonel Wallace is a contractor, the same as the remainder.
23238. Chairman^ The prices, you say, are fixed by Mr. Nepean ?
They were fixed at the War Office, by whom I could not say, but we have a
very vague idea.
23239. How do you account for Hebbert’s paying 1 s. or 1 s. d., and
Wallace paying 8 d. ?
We cannot account for that ; that is what we want to find out.
23240. You say that this is all part of the same contract r
The tender in the first place vvas for 10,000.
23241. By whom?
From the War Office, and the tenders went in for the 10,000, but they were
split up into four parts ; a part was given to Colonel Wallace, a part to Dolan,
a part to Pullman, and a part to Hebbert.
23242. And the prices were not uniform ?
d'hose prices all varied
23243. And you say that the prices were settled by somebody in the War
Office ?
The price at Colonel Wallace’s factory is put up on a paper which is signed
at the foot by Mr. Nc-pean; I have seen it myself.
23244. How about the other places ?
Dolan’s had a price list ; but I cannot say exactly the price, only that I know
there was a slight difference.
23245. Was that also signed by Mr. Nepean ?
1 believe so ; the signature is Evan Colville Nepean at the foot.
23246. And you object to these prices as not being satisfactory r
Well, they are not satisfactory at all.
23247. In what way ?
They are not suificient. But there is another thing ; these prices are supposed
to be women’s prices, and what men do go on them are compelled to work at
the same price ; but we contend that if w omen are equal to doing the article in
the same manner, they are equal to receive the same price.
23248. In the first place, do you say that they can do the work as well as
men ?
Not in all cases they do not; there are some that can do it as well, some
that have been at it for years.
23249. And your contention is that the work ought to be paid at a certain
price, without considering whether it is done by men or women?
Yes.
23250. Although
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
473
2Qth March 1889.]
Mr. Smith.
[ Continued.
232,50. Although the women are willin2 to do it cheaper?
Well, I do not think the women in that case are willing to do it cheaper.
But in the case of Colonel Wallace, t do not know if it is the same with the
women as with the men ; but the men are under threat of instant dismissal if
there is any grumbling at the prices.
23251. How do you know that?
I have a statement on that point, and I can call nearly the wlnde of the
workmen as witnesses, if not the whole of them, that were at work in the same
shop, to corroborate it.
23252. Can the women do as much work of this kind in the day as
men ?
Some of them do ; but I contend that it is not proper work for women.
23253. You told us that some of it is too hard for them ; has the Accoutre-
ment Makers’ Association drawn up any li'^t of prices ?
Yes, 1 have a copy here ; the original has gone to press. I had to bring a
written copy because we have no printed ones out yet. That is the harness
and the accoutrements too {handing in a List). The accoutrements are on the
second paper.
23254. This is all army work ?
It is all armx'^ work. Those prices are for the article complete.
23255. Those are the prices that you consider would be fair?
Yes ; that is fixed at the rate of 8 d. per hour.
[The following List is handed in : — ]
Harness, Artillery ;
».
d.
Backhand -
-
-
each
3
8
Breeching, near side
-
-
-
V
5
6
„ off side
-
-
-
if
c
-
Bridle
-
-
-
V
1
-
Case, shoe -
-
-
-
j)
1
5
Collar ...
-
-
-
„ head -
-
.
-
1
10
Crupper, ineluding dock
-
-
»♦
1
8
Girth - - -
-
-
-
if
1
-
Leathers, stirrup
-
-
per pair
-
4
Legging, drivers -
-
-
-
each
I
2
Keins, bradoon
-
-
-
per pair
-
6
,, bearing -
-
-
-
euch
-
7
„ lead -
-
-
>♦
-
7
„ side and chape
-
-
-
if
-
4
„ )iair horse -
-
-
-
per pair
2
-
■Seats, drivers
-
-
-
each
1
8
„ luggage -
-
-
i>
2
-
Surcingle
-
-
-
if
-
6
Straps, hame
-
-
if
-
2
,, wither
•
-
-
if
-
„ flank
-
-
-
if
-
n
„ hip -
-
-
-
V
-
„ girth
-
-
-
*j
-
1
„ cloak and wallet
-
-
if
-
4
Traces, wheel
-
-
-
per pair
3
-
„ lead -
-
-
-
>»
5
8
„ short
-
-
-
)?
1
7
Tugs, shaft -
-
-
-
a
4
4
Wallet
-
“
-
each
3
3
Harness, Cavalry :
Bridle - - -
*
.
.
each
1
_
Case, shoe -
.
-
-
jj
1
2
Collar, bre.ast
-
-
-
1
9
,. head
Crupper
-
-
-
f>
1
10
-
-
-
if
-
8
Girth -
-
-
-
if
I
-
Leathers, stirrup
-
.
-
per pair
-
4
Plate, breast
.
•
each
1
4
Reins, bradoon
-
-
-
per pair
-
6
„ lead -
-
-
-
each
-
7
Seat, universal
Surcingle
-
-
-
1
6
-
-
-
i>
-
6
Straps, shoe case -
-
-
-
>i
-
1
„ girth
•
-
-
a
-
1
„ cloak and wallet
-
-
yy
_
4
Strapping, nosebags
-
-
-
V
-
2i
Traces
-
-
-
per pair
2
-
Wallet
(11.)
each
2
9
3
Accoutrements, Sea Service,
Valise braces . - .
Belt
Frog
Ammunition bag
Pouch, 20-round - • -
„ SO „ - - -
)> S6 „ -
Gun slings - - -
Water-bottle carriage, short -
„ „ long -
Boarding axe case
Pistol holster . . .
Accoutrements, Infantry,
Buff:
Valise . - . .
Valise braces . . .
Belt - - - - -
Pouch - - - -
Frog
Gun-sling -
Coat-strajjs - - - -
Mess-tin-straps - - -
W ater-bottle carriages
Accoutrements, Infantry,
Black :
Valise braces - - .
Belt - - - - -
Pouch - - - - -
Frog
Gun-sling - - . .
Coat-straps - - . -
Mess-tin-straps - - -
Water-bottle carriages
Accoutrements, Infantry.
Pattern, Buff :
Valise - - - -
Valise braces ....
Belt - - - - -
Pouches, large bore, 30-round
» » “^0 j)
Coat-straps - - . -
Messtin-straps - . .
Accoutrements, Infantry.
Pattern, Black :
Valise braces ...
Belt - - - - -
Pouches, large bore, 30-round
)> !) 40 ,,
Co.at-straps ....
Mess-tin-straps ...
o
Old Pattern :
- per pair
- each
1882 Pattern,
each
per pair
each
per pair
per doz.
each
1882 Pattern,
per pair
each
per pair
- per doz.
- each
Slade Wallace
each
per pair
each
- per doz.
■ )>
Slade Wallace
per pair
each
- per doz.
1 -
1 -
- 4
1 -
- 10
1 1
1 3
- 3
- 4
- 5
- 9
- 8
2 4
- 3 ^
-
- 10^
- 4
I
24
9
4
- 4
- 6
- Hi
- H
- li
- 3
1 -
- 5
-h
8‘
6
8
- 10
-
1 10
1 1
1 u
1 4-
474
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2Qth March 1889.] Mr. Smith. ^Continued.
Witness.'] That is the price accepted by accredited meetings of the
Trade Union.
232.56. Can you compare that with the prices for the articles that you have
mentioned ?
Not in all cases, simply because with regard to the preparing of the pouches
and the riveting that is being done at the present time, boys are being employed
• on it, and men at so much per week ; therefore I cannot say how much
each article would be allowed for preparing ; but the stitching in the articles I
could compare.
23257. You said that Wallace paid 6 d- for a certain poucli ?
That is for stitching. These prices are complete, for the article complete ;
but we have a divided price.
23258. I want to find out from you what the difference is between the price
that is being paid and the price that you think ought to be paid ?
I tliink I can tell you ; the valise you know is split up in several parts, for
which Colonel Wallace is paying complete not quite 1 s. d.; it is over 1 s. -\d.
Now shall I give you the parts of that valise and the prices r
23259 I would sooner you put it taking the same articles you have already
mentioned ?
I can take them as I come down the list. The Trade Union price for avalise
is 2 s. d. ; the valise brace, 1 could not sav w hat his price for that is ; it was
not on the list then ; but our price complete is 8 c?.; now the belt which
Colonel Wallace is paying 2 d. for stitching, the Trade Union price is 5 d. for
stitching ; it takes a good bit over half-an-hour. The pouch, a 30 -round
pouch, for which I said Colonel Wallace paid 6 c?. previously, but now pays 8 <^.
for, and for which Hebbert is paying equal to 1 s. or 1 s. - 1 d., and Bryan’s 8 | d.
our price for that pouch is 1 5. 4 c?., the stitching price; the complete price is
1 8 c?. There is two hours’ work for stitching.
23260. That you say Hebbert pays 1 s. or 1 s. d. for?
He pays \ s. 2 d. for a pouch complete, and we allow 2 d. or d. off for the
preparing ; that leaves 1 or 1 s. d. for stitching.
23261. And you say the stitching ought to be what?
One shilling and fourpence.
23262. Then may I take it that the various articles all through the list vary
in about the same proportion ?
About the same proportion all through.
23263. The basis of that statement of prices is 8 d. an hour ?
Eightpence an hour.
23264. And the same prices to be paid to men and women?
The same prices alike ; these prices can be obtained at any time.
23265. You have not got a complete list of Colonel Wallace’s prices as posted
up in the factory ?
I have not with me ; he had not put the preparing price up at all.
23266. I want to understand clearly about the women’s work. You think
some of the w'ork is too heavy for women altogether?
Some of it is too heavy.
23267. Is there any of it that women can do just as well as men, or better
than men ?
I do not say better ; some want to say they can do it better, but I contend
that they cannot.
23268. In any case you think they ought to he paid exactly the same ?
They ought to be paid exactly the same, those that can do the work equally
well ; I think it is necessary that the work should he done in the best possible
manner.
23269. Do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
475
2Qth March 1889.] Mr. Smith. \_Continved,
23269. Do you know whether the tendency is to employ women more and
more ?
At the present time I believe it is ; and Mrs. Edmunds, in Bermondsey, has a
number of girls (we call them female learners), learning them on these new
pattern pouches. It is taking the bread out of the w'orkman’s mouth, simply
because there are so many workmen wanting work at tlie present time, and the
contractors are employing women ; I believe they are instructed to.
23270. Instructed to, by whom ?
I have heard, but I cannot say that it is true, that the instructions from the
War Office are, that they are to be done by wmmen on the contractor’s premises,
to prevent the recurrence of the sweating system.
23271. T think we had in evidence before that most of the work that was done
by girls was carried on at VV^alsall r
It was at Walsall; but they are bringing in the system in London now since
we gave evidence last.
23272. Employing girls in factories, you mean -
Employing girls in the factories. We have a contractor now, that is Bryan,
who sub-contracts from Pullman ; he has started six wmmen last week ; those
are his instructions.
23273. Instructions from wdiom ?
From Pullman, I suppose, to him ; and Pullman’s instructions would be from
the War Office.
23274. Do I understand you, that you think that instructions have been issued
from the War Office that the work is to be done in factories, and on the con-
tractor’s own premises.?
Yes, on those contracts.
23275. And that they employ women to do it?
Yes.
23276. As they are not allowed to put it out to men ?
As they are not allowed to put it out to the sweater ; but, had it been done
the same as before, the men might as well have gone inside and done it.
23277. And is that a class of work that the girls can do ?
As I said before, it is not fit work for w'oriien, and there are not so many
w omen in London that can do it ; but some of the women that are employed
on it have husbands at work at other trades, and are earning good wages, while
men are walking about doing nothing.
23278. If I understand you rightly, what you object to is tlie women com-
peting with the men ?
We object to this : that since we gave evidence instructions have been given
that the work is to be done by women, it being called women’s work, w hich
we are prepared to jirove has not been done by women previously, not one-
tenth part of it.
23279. But at the same time the prices have improved ?
Well, on the accoutrements they have not improved, not but very little. I
think Mr. Tomlin seems to have a tendency for female labour.
23280. Why should not he, if the work is done as well?
It is not women’s work, and men are wanting the work who know how to do
the work. I do not see why he should be allowed to bring women into it,
unless he paid the same price, and then you would find that the contractor, if
he had to pay women the same price, w'ould ! ave men to do the work.
23281. What you object to is, not that the work is badly done by the women,
but you object to the contractor getting the work done as cheaply as he can ?
I think the contractor ought to be compelled to pay a certain amount for the
labour. It is very unfair for the contractor to pocket all the profit and the
workmen to starve. Very recently a contractor at Bermondsey stated that he
thought 3 d. an hour was quite enough for any man to earn ; I do not know if
(11.) 3 O 2 he
476
minutes of evidence taken before the
26 tk March 1889.'] iVlr. Smith. [Coniinued.
he thought that 3 d. an hour would be sufficient to pay him. Almond’s con-
tracts, again, are sweated at the present time. The sweaters are Potton and
Davis. The present price for girths paid by Davis is 2 j d. each ; bridoon reins,
1 d. per pair; for bearing reins, 1 d.; crupper, 3 ^ d. ; mule bridles, 9 | d.; the
former price of mule bridles was 1 3 ^ d. •, cloak and wallet straps, f r/. ;
leather surcingles, lit?.; 1882 pattern buff belt, 1 d. ; 1882 pattern buff pouch,
d.
23282. Do you wish to compare these with what the Government pays ?
This is the price paid by the sweater for the stitching.
23283. You are going to compare it with something else, I suppose ?
We have the price on that list for almost all articles, but we have a divided
price, which I have not brought, but which 1 can supply. Driver’s seat,
artillery, 6 d. Potton does most of the same articles for Almond, but he pays
I d. more on a good many of them.
23284. He does them for Almond but pays more, you say ?
lie takes them from Almond, the same as Davis, and he is paying j d. more
than Davis for most of the articles at the present time. Now Davis is giving
no work-books to his workmen with the amount of work they have done, only
the amount they have earned. Where a man and his wife are at work the
amount of the twm is put in the same book, so that you do not know the price
of the articles from the book. I think they have been afraid that we should
bring some of the books forward. He is paying 3 d. per dozen for stirrup straps.
Potton pays 1 a dozen more for stirrup straps, and he pays 4 d. more on
almost everything.
2328,5. Do you know what the Government are paying for these same
things ?
I do not.
23286. What you have quoted these prices for is, to show us that the work is
insufficiently paid ?
Yes.
23287. You had better tell us how much they can do r
At those prices a man has to work very hard to earn 2 4 (/. or 3 d. an hour;
you may call the average wage 2^ d. per hour at these prices,
23288. But ihere are not many men working at it, I suppose ?
Well, there are several men working at the work now; men and women are
doing these articles I have just been speaking of, at these prices.
23280. Are those prices lower than they used to be for these articles?
Yes, they are lower than they used to be, a good bit lower. For instance,
■this {showing the jiattern huff hell) hns, been paid more than double
what it is at the present time. This {showing another hdt) is the belt that I
mentioned a minute back at 1 d. It is the same work as what these others are.
Then take this pouch {exhibiting one). These arc patterns; there is about the
same w'ork in this as in the others. That is a pouch that is paid 2^ d. for.
23290. Tn all these cases you mean that you are giving us what the liands
get for making it up ?
Yes.
23291. Not including the material, or the preparing of the material?
No, this is the stitching price ; what the workers receive for stitching them.
23292. I do not think you need go on multiplying instances, if you will give
us samples to prove your case ?
By Ross and Company, at Walsall, these pouches were paid at 2 d. ; the 1882
pattern buff.
23293. When ?
Some time ago, that is now, at Walsall, by Ross and Company ; and the black
1882 pattern as low as li d. In London the pouch is being paid at 2j d., 2 d.,
and
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
477
2Qth March 1889 .]
iMr. Smith.
[ Continued.
and \ s. Q d. per dozen, that is d. each ; that is the 1882 pattern poueh. I
think, in answer to Question 4728 , there is something about seven stitches to the
inch. This pouch {producing a pouch) is seven stitches to the inch.
23294. That is the evidence of Mr. Morrison ^
Yes.
23293. He says, speaking of tugs, “ Seven to the inch is the Government
stitch that is required ” ? •
And this would be seven to the inch in the pouches too {pointing to the
pouch) ?
23296. Seven stitches to the inch ?
Seven stitches to the inch.
23297. What about that ?
I thought that there was a little difficulty perhaps about understanding the
amount of stitches to the inch in that question. The tugs and the pouches and
all are supposed to be seven ; but 1 do not say that there are seven put in them
all.
23298. Do you mean to say that seven aie not put in ?
Seven are not put in in some articles.
23299. What I understand you to mean is that the Government stitch, seven
to the inch, is required in a great number of articles ; not only in these pouches
that have been mentioned ?
That is the stitch in almost all articles ; seven to the inch.
23300. But it very often happens that the proper number of stitches are not
put in, and the Government therefore would be defrauded ?
Yes.
23301. Whose fault is that?
Those that prepare it. Generally the sweater gets it done as cheaply as
possible, and in getting it done, striking off a bit of the price can be done by
pricking them at six instead of seven. It has been done so.
23302. You mean the price paid is so small that the workmen can only put
in a less number of stitches ?
The sweater puts the number of stitches less himself, on purpose to lower the
price.
23303. Then the contractor that the sweater gets the work from must be
aware of the fact, must he not?
He must be very blind if he does not see it, when he overlooks the work.
23304. And the view'er on the part of the Government must be equally
blind ?
Yes.
23305. But yet you say that it frequently happens ?
That is done. In my evidence last time 1 did not know the duties of the
viewer quite so well as I do at present; I found out that the viewer is a great
deal at fault for a good deal of the work, passing of inferior workmanship. In
the valises, for instance, 1 stated that two stitches and two-and-a-half were put in
and passed instead of three. That is quite ti ue ; that has been done many times,
and the sweater has known it, but the bag has not been turned ; they could see
the stitches of those bags and valises, and if the viewers turned them inside out
they could see tlie stitch.
23306. If they turned them inside out, you say?
If they turned them inside out, which I find it is their duty to do. During
the years 1885 and 1886 there w'ere a good many that went in at two-and-a-half
instead of three.
23307. How do you know all this ?
Simply because I have stitched them at two-and-a half instead of three mvself.
(11.) 3O3 'We
478
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2Qth March 1889.] Mr. Smith. \^Continucd.
We were allowed as far as that b v the sweater ; a notice was stuck up that three
stitches to the ineh was the regulation, but they would not be passed at less than
two-and-a-half.
23308. Notice was put up in the place you were working at that three was the
regulation, but that they would be passed at two-and-a-half?
Ves, at two-and-a-half, not less.
23309. And you yourself put in two-and-a-half?
Of course we put in as small number as we could, to get round the work.
23310. And these goods, you say, were passed?
Yes.
23311. How do you know that they were not rejected?
If they were rejected, we should have had them back, to alter.
23312. They never did come back ?
Never.
23313- is there much difference in tlie quality and strength of the work
between two-and-a-half and three stiches to the inch ?
With a less number of stitches you see necessarily the stitch is longer, and
has not the strength ; there is not the strength in a bag with a long stitch
that there is with a shorter one, providing the stitch is not so short as to cut
the material.
23314. And, in your opinion, it is a thing that occurs pretty frequently ?
It used to. There have not been many of that pattern of valise made this
last 12 months.
23315- Do I understand that this only occurred in the case of valises?
This is in valises, three stitehes to the inch.
23316. But take other articles; do you mean to say that it frequently
happens that the proper work is not put in ?
That is done very frequently ; but recently I think the work has been done a
bit better.
23317. Why?
Because it has been a bit more looked after. There has been a rumour
started bj some of the svyeaters tliat the men are anxious for having the work
out of the factories to do in rheir own homes again. That was reported to the
last general meeting of our trade union, and the opinion of the meeting was
taken upon it, and a unanimous resolution was passed condemning home work ;
and in the opinion of that meeting it was a gross libel on the members of the
trade union and the woikmen in the trade for any sweater or anyone to make
such a statement.
2331 8. What trade union is that ?
The Military Harness and Accoutrement Makers’ Trade Union. The men
find that they can get on much better working in the factory; they have more
comfort at home. Of course they only work about 10 hours in the factory ;
whereas if they have the work at home they work 16 or 17 hours.
•23319. Is most of the work now done in factories ?
Most of it now.
23320. How long have you been working at this trade?
I have not done such a very great deal of it this last year or two, simply
because recently I have had a job to obtain it. I suppose I must not call it
boycotting, not in England ; but still it is something coinciding with the saying.
I have applied for work and I have been promised work, and I have letters,
which 1 could show your Lordships, in my possession now, in which work has
been promised me, but when I have applied for it, the answer has been, “ I
will drop you a line in a few days when I am ready for you.” That has been
going on for two or three months ; and at the present time the man that has
stated that to me is wanting hands.
23321. The
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
479
2Qth March 1889.] Mr. Smith. \_Continued.
23321. The man that stated what?
The man that told me he would drop me a line is in want of hands at the
present time ; but he has not dropped me a line yet I wrote on the 5rh of
February to him asking him for a definite answer, whether or luM 1 was to be
employed, but 1 have received no answer to my letter. 1 have called on him
once since, and he told me thefa the same as before, that he would drop me a
line as soon as he had room.
23322. You mean that you have had difficulty in getting work ?
Yes, I do ; and I am not the only one.
23323. What do you wish us to infer from that r
That is simply because we have organized this trade union, and because we
gave evidence here last time.
23324. You mean to say that you think witnesses befoi’e this Committee
have had difficulty in getting work ?
More than one of them have. I do not say those that gave evidence last
time ; but some of those that were called and did not give evidence, that were
brought up here. Now, after we gave evidence last time, Potton came round ;
he came to me as well as to others, others that he had suspected of giving
information to us (he had a solicitor with him), quesiioning us on certain points
of the evidence ; he came to me and asked me on what authority 1 stated that
he had been a potman.
23325. Did you state that he had been a potman ?
I did not state it in my evidence ; he said he knew I did, as he had a person
in the room at the time that heard me state it. Had I stated it, it is no more
than is true. He did not exactly say that to me at that time; but said if he
could find out who had stated it, he would make it hot for them.
23326. Were you working for him ?
No, not at that time ; I had been before.
23327. Are we to understand that he threatened you in any way to do you
any damage?
I do not exactly know what he meant by “ making it hot; ” but I have
witnesses to prove that he stated in his shop, at Bermondsey, that he would
make it hot for that Smith, and one or two others ; those were the words.
23328. And you consider that you and some others have suffered from giving
evidence, by finding a difficulty in getting the work?
Yes, I do, for some little time past. 1 applied to a contractor, at a con-
tractor’s factory, about three weeks or a month ago ; I was told to come inside
and bring my tools on the following day. I took them about middle day, and
I was told then that he had no room ; he had set someone else on in the
morning, after telling me the day before to call in the middle of the day.
23329. Have you worked in many shops and factories ?
Not many in the accoutrement work.
23330. Have you anything to say about the sanitary condition of these
shops ?
The shop in Medway-street, where Potton recently was, was in a very bad
condition ; for weeks we had an overflow of sewage all in the shop, and the
shoj) was crowded with workmen. I think that was during the summer of
1885 ; it was for a very long while. A workman was discharged there for some
fault, I could not say exactly what, but I suppose out of spite ; he informed the
sanitary officer, and Potton was compelled to build other offices out of doors.
23331. Had no complaint been made before ?
I do not know that it had. The stench used to be almost unbearable some-
times. We have a good many men in the trade now that were working in
the shop at that time, and if you wish for further evidence on it we could bring
them before you.
(ID) 3 O 4 23332. How
480
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2Qth March 1889.] Mr. Smith. \_Continued,
23332. How is it that there was no complaint made before?
That I could not say. It used to be complained to Potton ; complaints have
been made to him, and all he has done has been to send a pail and tell them to
pour plenty of water down ; that was no good, as it did not run away ; the
drain was defective.
^333.3- And the workman who was discharged, I suppose, called the attention
of the sanitary authorities to it r
Yes, he did so. The drain was taken up once or twice while we were in the
si] op.
'^3334. Is it the case that the workers have to buy their hemp fi-om the man
they are getting work from ; the sweater ?
Not so much now as it used to be. It used to be the case ; when I was
working for Potton, and elsewhere, I have bought hemp. Generally we had it
from him, and we were supposed to; and it has been the ca'^e that he has told
workers that they must have hemp from him, or else they would not have the
work.
23335. What is the general rule now ?
I do not think there is any particular rule on it ; you get the hemp where
you can. There has not been much done lately. I do not think many of them
have any in stock.
23336. But formerly it was the custom to get it from the sweater ?
To get it from the sweater generally.
23337. Did they charge any higher for it?
No ; about the same price. But Mr. Potton accused me of stating here that
he made a profit on the hemp. I do not think in my evidence I stated anything
about the hemp,
23338. I am not aware that you did either. However, that does not matter.
He told me that he did not know the price of the hemp himself. That could
be found out from Mr. Brigg’s contract bills. Does tliat lead us to suppose
that he had his hemp for nothing, and that what he charged was solely profit ?
If so, it was worse than has been stated.
23339. What was said in evidence, at No. 4728 was, that the workers “ are
compelled to purchase the hemp that cost the sweater 2 d. per ball, at a profit
of I d. on each ball and in that same answer it is alleged that the sweaters
were in the habit of lending money. Is that the case ?
Yes, that is quite true ; and charging | in 1 s. as interest at the end of the
week ; some of the sweaters charged 1 d.
23340. When are these people paid, at the end of the week?
Generally on Saturday.
23341. Can they get paid every day if they liked?
No ; not that I am aware of.
23342. Does it generally run longer than weekly payments ?
At their own option. 1 have, myself, let it run over for a fortnight.
23343. they could always get their money on a Saturday ?
Always, at the end of the week.
23344. Then what do they want these advances for ?
It is owing to the small amount they earn ; they want to pay their rent ;
during the week they have to “ sub.” Of course, being out of work, per-
haps, some time before they get in, as soon as they have earned a few shillings
they sub. it lo pay off the rent,
23345. What do you mean by “sub,” ?
Ask an advance. When once they commence this subbing it is necessarily
kept up, because they do not earn sufficient to stop it.
23346, Then they are constantly in debt to the sweater?
Not
SELECT COMMITTTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM,
481
2Qth Match 1889.] Mr. Smith. \_Continued.
Not in debt, because be takes particular care that they put the amount of
work in before he lets them have the money.
23347. He takes good care to have sufficient work done to advance the
money on ?
Yes ; therefore, the workers on piece-work are only advanced a part of the
amount they have earned, yet they have the interest to pay on it.
23348. A halfpenny iu the shilling, you say ?
A halfpenny in the shilling ; in some cases a penny. There are one or two
sweaters that have advanced and not charged interest at all.
23349. Is this, should you say, a common thing ?
That is a common thing ; at least it was a common thing ; hut in one or
two factories I do not think they advance money at all.
23350. Several times you have said “ it was” ; do you mean that the thing
is improving in any wav ?
Up till recently the money used to be “ subbed,” but now if the men want it,
they cannot get it, not till the end of the week ; there is no subbing now.
23351. That is to the advantage of the men, is it not :
Is it to the advantage of the men, simply because they save the interest and
have the money in a big lump on the Saturday.
23352. Then this subbing does not e.xist at all now ?
1 am not aware of any cases at the present time ; still it may exist.
23353. What has put an end to that ?
I suppose the evidence given last time ; because I know after we gave
evidence last time, Potton put a stop to some of his hands at his factory at
Bermondsey subbing. When the evidence was given about lending money, and
interest being charged, that I think was the cause of his refusing to lend
money any more,
23354. You think since the former evidence was given subbing has been
put a stop to ?
I do.
23355. Does the same apj>ly to the hemp ?
Since then there has not been such a great deal of work done ; the
hemp is mostly bought by the worker outside from anywhere that he chooses
to buy it from ; not many of the sweaters keep it in stock, if any.
23356. Lord Thring.~\ I do not understand what you say about Mr. Nepean.
Is it in this way : a contract was put out from the War Office for 10,000
belts ?
The contract was for 10,000 sets of accoutrenaents.
23357. But I thought you talked of belts ; 10,000 belts ?
The belts are included in the accoutrements.
23358. But did I not understand you that there was 10,000 belts, which
amongst other things there was a contract for, put out by the War Office ?
Nine thousand odd for alteration ; there were nearly 10,000 of these given
to Bramstone.
23359. Shall I call it 9,000 belts ?
I think it is 9,000, odd ; I am not exactly sure.
23360. We will say, then, 9,000 belts put out by the War Office. Then you
say that Mr. Nepean was the person in the War Office who conducted that
contract r
I should suppose Mr. Nepean gave that contract out.
23361. Did I understand you to say that the contract was divided into four
parts ?
(11.) 3P
Not
482
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2Qth March Mr. SMITH. \ Continued.
Not that one. The contract was for 10,000 sets of buff accoutrements ;
there would be 10,000 belts, 10,000 pouches, and 10,000 valise braces.
23362. Then shall I call it 10,000 sets of accoutrement' ?
Til at is right.
23363. I understand there were 10,000 sets of accoutrements for which the
War Office required tenders ?
Yes.
23364. I understand that Mr. Nepean was the officer in the VVar Office who
conducted the business relating to that tender?
I slioidd suppose he did conduct it, being the Director of Contracts.
23365. I thought you told the Committee that that tender was divided into
four parts ?
Yes, it was.
23366. And I thought you told the Committee that there were four different
prices paid ?
There are, at the present time.
23367- I thought you told them that there were, under that tender ?
Under that tender. I cannot say there were four different prices; there was
more than one price.
23368. Did I not understand you to say that Mr. Nepean knew that the
prices of the different parts of ihat tender were different ?
I should suppose he did by his putting a signature at the bottom of the
paper.
23369. Is it not the same thing. Do I understand you to say that the price
list for those several tenders was signed by Mr. Nepean, and that the prices
were different r
Yes.
23370. Then it follows, does it not, that Mr. Nepean knew ?
Yes, he must have known it ; that is, unless the papers were sent out blank
with his name at the foot; of that we cannot be certain, as there have been
alterations.
23371. At all events, I understand you to say that these papers show that
Mr. Nepean signed his name to four different prices to four different parts of a
tender, each of those different parts consisting of the same description of
article r
The same description ; part of the same contract.
23372. Therefore, iMr. Nepean knew that under a War Office tender four
different people were paid different prices for the same article?
Well, he must have known what he signed.
23373. Then, according to that, the War Office, or rather the Government,
pay different prices to different people for the same article ?
The contractors pay the different prices. I do not know whether the War
Office pay the contractors a different price or pay the contractors all alike; that
I cannot say ; but if they pay them all alike some of the contractors are pocket-
ing an enormous profit.
23374. What were the prices signed by Mr. Nepean ; were they not the prices
to be paid by the Government for the article?
No ; the prices to be paid by the contractor to the worker.
23375- Why did he sign them at all ?
I cannot say.
23376. Chairman.^ It is a new thing, is it not ?
Yes.
23377-
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
483
2Qth March 1889.] Mr. Smith. {^Continued.
23377. It is, comparatively, quite recent ?
It is.
23378. That the War Office has settled certain rates of wages to be paid by
all contractors ?
They have settled this rate, and Mr, Nepean has signed it as the War Office
rate, and the contractor is supposed to pay that amount, but some of the con-
tractors are paying a great deal more.
23379. Lord Thring.^ Then Mr. Nepean sent it to different contractors,
paying ditferent rates of wages for the same article ?
The list signed Mr. Nepean to Dolan’s did not coincide exactly with the list
of Colonel Wallace’s, signed by Mr. Nepean.
23380. In other words, that Mr. Nepean assented to Colonel Wallace paying
a different rate of wages from that which Mr. Dolan paid ?
Yes, quite so.
23381. Chairman.^ Do you suppose that this is what happened; that the
War Office decided that not less than a certain wage should be paid, and that
therefore they would be quite willing for the contractor to pay more, and
would so sign the contract, but they would not allow any of their contractors to
pay less ?
That might be so.
23382. And therefore that the wages might vary ?
'I'hat might be so.
23383. Earl of Derhg.^ As to this practice of advancing money to workmen
and charging interest upon it, has that prevailed ever since you knew the trade,
or is it new ?
I think it has prevailed for some years. When I first went into the trade, it
was then in vogue, and was up till the last evidence, and I think at one or two
places since, but not much since.
23384. And is it common ; that i" to say, are there many men who avail
themselves of the opportunity to get money before it is due, or is it confined to
a few r
It prevailed to a great extent.
23385. And have you any reason to suppose that it was encouraged by the
employeis, or was it done in the first instance as a convenience to men who were
unable to go through the week without an advance?
I suppose it was that the men were short of money, and that they solicited
the employer for an advanee ; that would be my idea of it, that the employer
advanced the money and charged the interest on it for the loan. At the same
time the loan was earned before.
23386. i presume the interest charged might be for the purpose of
discouiaging the practice, which would not be a convenient one for the
employer ?
No, it was charged for a profit; because they were very willing to advance
the money. 1 have heard, I cannot say with how much truth, that about 80
or 90 1. a week used to be advaneed by Potton, in Medway-street, during 1885 ;
that amounts to a considerable sum For interest.
23387. Lord Monkswell.^ You say that the men prefer to work at home
rather than in the factories, because, in the factories, they only work for about
10 hours a day, whereas at home they work 16 or 17 hours a day ?
The sweaters have stated, one or two of them, that the men do prefer to work
at home ; but we put it to the men, and took their opinion on it, and they say
they do not wish it.
23388. I understand ymur statement to be that your union resolved
unanimously that they would rather work in factories that at home ; and the
(11.) 3 P 2 reason
484
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
26M March 1889.] Mr. Smith. \Continued.
reason you gave for that was that, whereas at home they worked 16 or 1/ hours
a dav, they only worked about 10 hours a day in factories?
Yes.
23389- I suppose they arc not obliged to work 16 or 17 hours at home; if
they did so, it would be only to earn more money ?
It would be tlie wages.
23390. And surely there would be more freedom when they were working at
home than when they were working in the factories ?
But if the work is paid a proper price, it is not fair for a man to take his
work home ; because then he can employ as many out as he likes, and in that
way the sweating system would be brought in again.
2339]. That is your reason for objecting to their working at home, that vou
are afraid the sweating systeni would be brought in again r
Yes.
23392. Was there not another reason perhaps why your union preferred
working in factories, namely, that it would not give the women as good an
opportunity of getting work ?
I do not say that that was a reason of theirs exactly ; I have not heard of that
being a reason ; but one reason was that they worked less hours in the factory
if they only got sufficient pay for it; and there is more comfort at home, work-
ing in the factory alid going home at night to clear apartments.
23393. It is more comfort to the men, you mean ?
Yes:
23394. But on the other hand, if a woman wanted to get work she would
probably rather ork at home ?
But if a man eains a sufficient wage to keep his wife and family in respecta-
bility, there is no necessity for her to work. We contend that he should be
allowed to earn sufficient to keep them in respectability without the wife having
to work.
23393. You mean even in the case of a married man he would rather that
his wife should nut work at home ?
The wife’s place is to look after the house.
2339^'. You say that some persons are what you call boycotted, not only
because they gave evidence here, hut because they were brought to give
evidence, though they did not give it in point of fact?
There were one or two brought here to give evidence that were not called.
23397. And still the boycotting, as you call it, applied to them just as much
as to the people who gave evidence ?
Yes, it did.
23398. Then you say that somebody told the sanitary officer of a very gross
want of sanitation, and you say he did it out ot spite
1 suppose so.
23309. Is it an indication of spite to tell a sanitary officer of a gross sanitary
neglect ?
It was quite necessary that he should be told ; but still 1 do not suppose
that man would have told him but for the fact of his being sacked.
23400. You mean that a workman would not like to tell the sanitary officer
of any defect, because, if it got to the ears of the master he would suffer
for it ?
Yes ; if he founcl out that anyone had told the sanitary officer they might
go. Did i mention to your Lordships the cin’umstances under which the men
are working at Colonel Wallace’s, at 39 and 40 , Great Dover-street ?
23401. Chairman.^ What do you wish to say about that. You told us that
Colonel
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
485
2(jlh March 1889.] Mr. Smith. {^Continued.
Colonel Wallace has posted up a notice that if the men grumbled they would be
discharged ?
It Wits not a notice ; he told his foreman. He went round to the men on
the l/th of January seeing what they could do ; he told them that they were
better paid now than ever they were. That was not quite correct. One of the
men did not answer; another said, ‘'Paid better than ever, sir, at 3 d. ; front, ^ d . ; corner pieceing, \ \d.-, and gussets, | d. There
is also welting, 2 d. per dozen, making 1 s. 8 d. [>er dozen. Five years ago
Potton paid 1 s. -h d. Although 1 cannot discover that the War Office pay
less, the iirice paid by contractors has. since 1882, fallen from Is. Oh d.
to 71
2352b. What are you taking all this from ^
From .Mr. Arnold White’s evidence.
23527. If you quote from the evidence you had better quote it in full?'
It is from 4671 to 4673, the latter part of 4671-
23528. What are you speaking of, leather kit bags ?
Yes ; what they term valises.
23529. That is what Mr. White means when he says, “ 'These are leather kit
bags for the infantry ; ” is that what you mean ?
Yes.
23530. “ These are leather kit bags for the infantry. 'J’he work done to
them by the worker is to sew the back called ‘backing,’ ‘fronts,’ ‘corner
pieces,’ seams called ‘seaming,’ and the ‘gussets,’ and to ‘welt’ them. It
takes a good man a day of 15 houi s to fit a dozen backs ; a dozen gussets and
fronts together take seven hours; seaming takes six hours to do 24 seams, that
is, the seams for 12 valises. A quick man doing the whole work might finish
four in a day of 15 hours; an average only three. The price for the whole of
the work paid now by Potton, Almond direct, and Briggs direct, is 7^ This
is made up as follows: seaming, 2d.; backing, 3d.; Ironts, 1|//. ; corner
])ieceing, li d.; and gussets, f c?.” Then we go on to the next question, where 1
ask him : “By ‘direct’ you mean wdthout the intervention of the sweaters r ”
and he says, “Without the intervention of sweaters. Briggs and Almond,
who aie contractors, are dealing direct with the workmen.” And Lord
Sandhui st asked him, “ Sevenpence-halfpenny means 7hd. per valise ? ” and
his answer was, “ Yes, and welting 2 d. per day; altogether 7 s. 8 d. a dozen. The
pattern is the 1882 pattern. It is partly machined before it is handed out by
the sweater. Five years ago the price paid by Potton was 1 .s. -h d. as follows :
seaming, 3 d. ; backing, 4 d. ; front gusset, 2^ d. ; corner pieceing and welting,
3 d. ; making I s. -I d. So that although I cannot discover that the price, paid
by tlie War Office to the contractor is any less, there has been a reduction since
1882 from 1 s. d to 7 2 d., and, of course, the profit has been intercepted by
the middleman,” That is what you refer to ?
Yes.
( 11 .)
3 Q 3
23531. Then
494
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2Qth March 1889.1 M\’. POTTON.
[ Conlinued.
23531. Tlien u hiit do you say to tl)at?
It is untrue.
23532. In what particulars?
I'he contractor suffers first; he does nut receive the pay. M hen there was
a pressure there was a fair price paid lor all the woik, which brought a good
many men into it ; since that time it has been very dull and bad.
2.3.53.3- ^ mean that when Mr. Wliite says, “ although I cannot discover
that the price j-aid by the War Office to the contractor is anv less,” that is in-
correct ; that it is less
A great deal h ss. .
23534. How^ much less, do you know ?
1 could not speak positively.
23535- Are these other figures correct?
N o.
23536. Just read out what you say are the correct figures?
For making these right out, I receive 12 per dozen, and I pay for manufac-
turing as follows : seaming, 2 a dozen ; backing, 3 a dozen; fronts, 6 c?. a
dozen, corner pieceing, 1 5. 3 c?. a dozen ; gussets, 9 d. a dozen ; welting backs
and fronts, 4 c?. a dozen ; machining, I s. 9 i/. a dozen; riveting, 6 c?. a dozen,
and turning, 6 d. a. liozen ; that makes 10 5. / d. per dozen. This leaves me
1 s. 5 rf. a dozen for preparing, tying up, cleaning and examining, and giving
out and taking in. Every valise has to pass through the hands of myself or my
foreman 11 limes. I produce one and can explain how it is put together.
There are about 100 different pieces in each valise.
23537. You do not know what the Government are paying exactly?
No ; not exactly. I think, as far as my knowledge goes, about five years
ago, valises were somewhere about / s. 6 d. a-piece, and I think they are now
about 5 5. 9 d., but I could not say confidently.
23538. Do you want to explain that valise ?
Yes {producing a valise).
23539. Do vou wish to shew to the Committee how much you have to do to
that ?
Yes ; a dozen of them. In Jabez Smith’s evidence he told your Lordships
that it is impossible for a viewer to see the seaming, that he would have to turn
the valise inside out.' Tliat is proved incorrect; it shows that he does not
understand the business, or else he could not utter such a thing before your
Lordships. You see the valise does not require turning inside out to see the
sewing. He tried to make your Lordships believe that the viewer could not
see it without that.
23540. Is that the same article that Mr. Smith spoke of ?
That is the same article. If they have a doubt, it does not take them
long to turn the thing inside out ; but there is no occasion to turn it inside
out.
235.11. You cannot see all the seams without turning it inside out, can
you ?
There are only two.
23542. But ^ou cannot see them without mrning it inside out I
I do not think much passes their eyes without their turning it inside out.
When I get it first the canvass is cut in the factory by a machine ; when it
comes to me I take the impression all at once for tins strap to go there
{pointing). When this first came out I assisted Ross & Company in making
20,000 of them. We used to have a eardboard pattern, and this {pointing) was
all^eut out; but, by knowledge of my own, I invented a machine. I used to
have to soap all round the cardboard pattern for the workpeople to put the
pieces for the different straps. That used to take a considerable time. Now, I
^ have
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
495
"2Qth March 1889.] Mr. Pottom. \_Cuntmued.
have got a machine ; I lay that down, and I let a fla() tall over it, and take the
impression all at once, which saves a lot of labour. Then it goes to the
machine-room after I ins))ect the canvas, to be bound round the wings, and
fronts and gussets; then it comes back again, the wings, and fronts, and backs
inspected, and it goes to a girl to glue these patches on {jjomting). Then this
buff here, 1 have a machine where I lun it all through, and it will come out
ready for the workpeople to put the stitches in. That is my own inven-
tion. The punching of that is done by girls, and the rivets are all
put ill, and it is put on the canvas, and it goes away to a man
to rivet ; he rivets it all on. Then the back is given out to a back
fitter at 3 d. each, The fronts and wings go through the same process in
making and machining They are examined ; the Ironts and the two wings are
given out to a female to .strap ; then the gusset is given out to a different hand
to be fitted. Then when these three articles come in from different people
they are inspected and given out to a man to do what I consider a man’s work,
to seam. He puts the three articles together. That will tell your Lordships
whether it is impossible for us to see, or the view ers at Woolwich, if a long
stitch is put instead of a short one, without turning the bag. Then the bag
comes again and it is examined, and it is given to a practical man to turn. In
the case of the canvas being damaged, we should have it thrown upon our hands
in turning. Then the bag is turned inside out, and then it is given out to a
woman to corner-piece, that is, finish ; that is, put that corner strap on, and that
chape {'pointing). Then tlie bag is cleaned and examined and tied up ready for
delivery to Woolwich.
^3543 All that is done in your factory ?
That is all done in my factory, but the sewing is given out principally ; 1
could not keep a factory for the workpeople to do that work in, because it would
not pay me, the prices are so bad.
23544. 1 only want to know the fact ; the sewing is not done on your
premises ?
No.
23.545. And with t!ie help of these inventions of yours, how many could you
produce in a week ?
I could not produce, as things are now, but I have produced, 1 think, to the
best of my knowledge, about 3,950 in one week ; that is, about 50 less than
4,000 have gone out of my premises in one week. I have had sandwich men
about the streets of London, with what we call sandwich boards. I have gone
down to Manchester to try to leachthem there. 1 see it is stated in the evidence
given against me, that 1 have advertised for 500 hands, and that when those
people have appeared to me, I have had nothing to give them ; it is u matter foi-
name and not for labour. I have gone down for Mr. Thomas Briggs to try and
teach them there, because we have been threatened by the War Office officials,
and ] agree that we have been fined very heavily because we have not complied
with contracts that we have undertaken to do. I have only been the servant to
Thomas Briggs. Haversacks; Mr Arnold White says, “These are wholl\
machined by women. One woman, who has been seen, has received lately from
Potton, 3ft/. per dozen. The workers find the thread. Three girls are engaged
by Pottoii, on his own premises, at this work. It is considered good work, and
18 s. per week has been earned at it.” This, so far as the 3ft/. per dozen is
concerned, is absolutely false. I have paid 3 5. 6 d. per dozen, and am now
paying 2 s. 9 d. per dozen, and finding machine, gas, firing, and shop room.
23546. Then Mr, Arnold White appears to have been about half-way between
the two ?
He is misled. Shaft-tugs: Mr. Arnold White states, “The present price is
6 aid
d. each?
Yes.
23736. There again it looks probable, does it not, that “ a dozen ” is a
mistake for ‘‘ each ” ?
It must be a mistake.
23737. I think you told us that a viewer can tell at a glance whether the
proper number of stitches are put in, and whether smaller thread than the
proper thread is used or not ?
Yes.
237.3b. Do you mean to say that if a thread is not very tightly twisted, a
viewei' can tell at a moment, without examining the thing very carefully,
whether t!ie thread is the proper thread or not ?
As soon as he lays liold of the article he can, because the firmness is not in
it.
23739. At anv rate that is your opinion ?
Yes.
23740. That would show that these goo Is require no close scrutiny at all?
No, no further than I showed you.
23741. Anybody can tell at once whether they are right or wrong?
Yes, when they handle it ; the firmness is not there.
23742. The Government require three stitches to the inch in valises?
Yes.
23743. Do any of your workmen ever put in less than that ?
Not to my knowledge.
23744. If, as you say, you can tell at a moment, that could not be done with-
out your knowledge ?
I do not view it all myself ; it is too much for me to handle them all. I have
my foreman here.
23745. Do you and your foreman view it all ?
Yes.
23746. He would tell you, 1 suppose, it they put in less?
If we had a doubt on it we gave it back there and then.
23747. You must know whether your workmen put in fewer than three
stitches ?
We could see it because the bag was brought in wrong side out to us.
23748. That is what I ask; have they ever put in less than three ?
We have had them rejected ; if a long stitch is put in it is thrown on our
hands.
( 11 .)
3 s 4
23749. You
512
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2m March 1889.] Mr. Fotton . IContinued.
2.3749- have had them rejected on that account ?
Yes.
23750- Then, although, as you say, it is so easy to find it out, they passed
you and your foreman ? ^ *
We had a slight doubt sometimes about the stitch.
23751. Have you not got a notice posted up that if workers put in less than
t\yo and a- half stitches to the inch, they would only be paid 2 e/. instead of
2\d.} ^
We did have one, but not now.
23752. Till when ?
1 moved from Westminster to Bermondsey, about three years ago, 1 think.
23753- You have not got such a notice up now?
No.
23754. You had not last year?
No.
23755- Nor the year before ?
No.
23756. Not of that kind?
IV ot over there.
23757. Anywdiere, had you?
No.
23758. You have not had a notice of that kind anywhere during the three
years ?
No.
23759- What is the object of saying, if they put in less than two and-a-half
stitches, they would be paid only 2 d. instead of 2h d.; that they would be paid
at that rate if they put in less than two and-a-half, whereas the Government
insists upon three stitches ?
I think there is an error there.
23760. An error where ?
If 1 passed that remark on that subject.
The Witness’ former answer : “ We did have one, but not now, ’ is read
to him.
Witness.] Not a notice to that effect.
23761. What was tl’C notice?
Three stitches to tlie inch.
23762. Just tell us uhat the notice was?
I’hat all seaming must be three stitches to the inch.
23763. Anything more ?
Not that I am aware of.
23764. Do you mean you had no notice at all saying that if men put in less
than three stitches to the inch, they would not be paid the full piice ?
Not to my knowledge.
23765. Could it be without your knowledge ?
No.
23766. Then cannot you say yes or no positively ."
No.
23767. Do \ ou mean to tell the Committee that you ever had, or that you
had not, a notice put up to the effect that if men put in less than three stitches
to the inch, or less than two and a-half stitches to the inch, they would be paid
a smaller sum ?
No.
23768. Nothing
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
513
2Sth March 1889.] Mr. Potton. \_Coiitinued.
2 3 76 8. Nothing of the kind r
No.
2376(). Have you ever passed any article with less than three stitches to the
inch ?
Not to my knowledge.
23770. Could it be without you knowledge?
We C(juld not measure everyone.
23771. You told me just now that a viewer can tell at a glance whether the
thing is right ?
He could.
23772. Now vou tell me you might pass these things without knowing it ?
But round those bags they are not pricked like this with the iron I showed
you.
23773. Then it is quite possible that you did pass goods that had not three
stitches to the inch in them ?
If they used a large awl, every time they used it, it took up as much of the
space which sank the stitch into the leather and make it look like a small stitch
though it might be the larger one.
23774. Therefore you might be deceived?
Yes.
23775. Also, I suppose, the Government viewer might be deceived?
Yes. '
23776. Have you ever paid anyone 2 d. instead of 2 3 d., because he only put
in two stitches to tlie inch ?
No.
positive of that r
Yes.
23778. Quite sure r
Yes.
23779. This work that succeeds in passing your inspection without ihe
proper number of stitches, might possibly be passed by the Government viewer
also ?
Yes.
23780. And supposing it is not, and comes back to you, what have you
to do ?
We have to alter it.
23781. But can you alter it satisfactorily. I mean to say, if the valise is
made up with stitches only two and-a-half to the inch, can you make it good by
putting in more stitches ?
Yes.
23782. What do you pay your men for doing that ?
So much an hour.
23783. How much ?
Fourpence an hour.
23784. Fourpence an hour for making good this bad work ?
Yes.
■^.3785. Do you make the men put their names or initials or anything on their
work ?
They are supposed to for a check.
23786. How do you mean they are “ supposed to " ?
Some of them do not, and some of them do.
ni.) 3 T
23787. Do
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5 14
‘zSth March \SSd.'\ Mr. Potton. {^Continued.
23787. Do you leave it entirely to their option to do as they like?
Not*exactly. 1 here are good workmen and there are bad workmen. Good
workmen we do not trouble so much as do the bad ones.
23788. Supposing a man does not put in the proper number of stitches,
and the goods come l)ack to you, do you pay him for making good the bad
work ?
No.
23789. That is to say, if you can trace the goods to the man who made them
you make him do it for nothing ?
It puts a check on him ; it is a matter of form.
23790. If you can trace the goods to the man who made them, you make him
do the work to make them good for nothing?
We do not ; we do them ourselves ; I [>ay my indoor men to do them.
23791. That is to say, if a man making for you scamps the work, and does
not put in the proper number of stitches, and you can trace tliat bad work to
him which is rejected by the Government and throv\n back on your hands, you
pay somebody else to make good his bad work ?
Yes.
23792. What ?
Fourpence per hour.
23793. \A hat do you do with a man who does this bad work, goon employing
him ?
They are very seldom long with us.
23794- Then I understand from you that you have never paid anything hut
the full price, 25 d. ?
Yes.
23795. Never paid anything less because there two and-a-half stitches to the
inch instead of thi ee -
No. i think there is an error ; the valise now at the present time is only 2 d.
for seaming.
23796. I was speaking of the time when it was 2 i d. ; it comes to the same
thing. I will make it quite clear: you are only paying 2 d. now for seaming
valises ?
Yes.
23797. Since when have you been paying that price?
About this last three years.
23798. You have been paying 2 d. for the last three years ?
Yes.
23799. During the last three years have you ever paid less than 2 d., because
there were only 2f stitches to tlie inch ?
No.
23800. Or because there were only two stitches to the inch ?
No.
23801. 1 think you said the total paid for sewing in 1885 was ll6‘. 9 fZ. a
dozen '!
Yes {handing in a Paper to the Chairman).
23802. This case is quite different; you had better read what you have on
that Paper. You say that Mr. Jabez Smith is correct in saying that in 1885
you paid 1 1 9 ?
Yes.
23803. What did you pay for baching in 1885 ?
Threepence farthing.
23804 And
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
515
2Sth March 1889.]
Mr. POTTON.
[ Continued.
23804. And what did you pay for the fronts and gussets ?
One penny tiiree-farthings.
23805. And what did you pay for seaming ?
Twopence- halfpenny.
23806. And corner piecing r
Three-halfpence.
23807. Welting?
Halfpenny.
23808. Each ?
A halfpenny the two, back and front.
23809. Can you make it up into per dozed r
Kleven shillings and ninepence.
23810. That makes 1 1 5. 9 e/. a dozen altogether, you say; but cannot you
give me the various costs per dozen ?
Seaming, 2.?. 6e/. per dozen; fitting, 3 s. 3 flf. a dozen; corner-piecing,
1 s. 6 d. a dozen ; gussets, 1 s. a dozen ; fronts, 9 c?. a dozen ; welting, 6 d. a
dozen ; machining, 1 s. 9 a dozen ; turning and riveting, 6 tZ. a dozen.
2381 1. What were you paying in 1888 ?
I paid 3 s. a dozen for backing (that is the same as fitting).
23812. Fronts and gussets, liow much r
One shilling and threepence a dozen.
23813. Seaming?
Two shillings a dozen.
23814. Corner-piecing?
One shilling and threepence.
23815. Welting?
W(dting fronts and backs, 4 d. dozen.
23816. That makes 7 s. 10 <;?. ?
But that is not including the machining and riveting.
23817. The machining and riveting would be the same as before, 2s. 9 d . ?
Machining, riveting, and turning, 2 s. 9 c?.
2381 8. It is the same now as it was in 1885 ?
Yes.
23819. Everything else is changed, but not the machining, riveting, and
turning ?
No.
23820. How' do you account for that ?
We do it inside ; we find the oil and machine, and rent just the same.
23821. You reduce the price you pay for the sewing, but not the price you
pay vourself for the machining, riveting, and turning ?
No.
23822. Do you ever make advances to your workmen ?
Yes.
23823. What do you charge them for it?*
One halfpenny in a shilling.
23824. A halfpenny per week ?
A halfpenny per week.
23825. I think you said just now that you changed your workmen very fre-
Quently ?
‘ Yes.
( 11 .)
3 T 2
23826. How
516
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
’2Sth March 1889.] Mr. PoTTON. \^Continned.
•23826. How long do they generally work for you, the men outside ?
Sometimes they come in one day and go away the next ; somerimes they
might stop a week, fortnight, three months, or six months, according to the
order. Tliey come from all parts.
23827. How do you mean they “ come from all parts ” ?
They come from Manchester, and Ireland, and Birmingham ?
23828. You are talking now of hands working in your place?
Y es.
23829. 1 am talking of people working outside ?
They work during the orders. If we have a large order, they work for us
longer.
23830. Do you not generally employ the same people ?
()n an average, we do employ the same out of doors.
23831. Do you never charge more than a halfpenny in the shilling ?
Never.
23832. How long do these debts run ?
They might run a fortnight; if we wait for the fnrniture, they might run a
month. I have some debts on my books that have been over 12 months.
23833. For money advanced to men working for you?
Y es. Sometimes I oblige them when they are not doing my work, when I
have not anything for them to do, but other people’s work.
23834. Do I understand you to say that you do not sell them hemp ?
No.
23835. Not now ?
No.
23836. You used to do so?
It was compulsion.
23837* You mean that you were obliged to, in order to ensure that it was
good hemp ?
Yes.
23838. Obliged to buy of the contractor?
The contractor was compelled to because of the complaints.
23839. Did you charge them the regular trade price?
Exactly t’ne same.
23840. Exactly the same as you paid yourself?
Exactly the same.
23841 . Have you got any system of fines in your place ?
No, without anything was done wilfully, as, for instance, a window broken.
23842. I do not ask you about exceptions ; I asked whether you did inflict
any fines for any cause whatever ?
Yes, we have, for a broken window, or a door broken.
23843. Then you do fine your workpeople r
We have done.
23844. To what extent ?
If they have broken a glass they pay for the glass, and we put it in tor
nothing.
23845. Do you take the fine out of their wages ?
Yes.
23846. Do you know whether that is illegal?
It is not legal, but we are not heavy with it? we are moderate with it.
23847. I think
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
517
28^/t il/orc/i 1889.] Mr. Potton. [^Coniinued.
23847. I think you said you had a shop in Medway-street at one time ?
Yes.
23848. And in Romney-street ?
It was a private house in Romney-street.
23849. Has there been any complaint made about tlie sanitary condition of
your shops ?
In Medway-street.
23850. Who complained ?
A man named Clark.
23851 . One of your workmen ?
Yes.
23852. Wlio did he complain to, the sanitary inspector ?
Yes.
23853. What happened ?
They came and compelled me to close a closet up that had been over 50 years
in the basement, where there have been workpeople during that time.
23854. They made you put it into a proper sanitary condition ?
No, it was stopped up ; they closed it up ; they said they did not think it
was liealthy where there were workpeople.
2 3855. And vou had to do that ?
Yes.
23856. Had any complaints been made to you before -
Never.
23857. Had the sanitary inspector ever visited it before .-
Yes.
23858. But made no remarks?
No reniaiks whatever.
23859. Where is your present place?
One hundred and twenty-seven, Upper Grange-road, Bermondsey.
23860. Does the sanitary inspector ever visit you there ?
Yes.
23861. Frequently.
Yes.
23862. Does the factory inspector ever visit you?
Yes.
23863. Has he ever made any complaint to you?
Well, he made a mistake, that he apologised for afterwards. He accused a
married man of being a boy under 16 years of age, and we made a note of it ;
I have tlie man in Court.
23864. He accused you of working overtime, I suppose, you mean, on the
ground that this person was under 16 years of age ?
Yes.
23865. Was that the only occasion on which he made any observation to
you ?
Yes, the only one whatever.
23866. How many boys have you at your place ?
1 should think, on an average, upstairs and down, about 12.
23867. And how many girls ?
Twelve girls and boys, up to 18 years of age, from 16 to 18 years of age.
23868. Any children ?
Mot under that age
( 11 .)
3 T 3
23869. You
518
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
'2%th March 1889.] Mr. Potton. {^Continued.
23869. You have had no complaint except the one you have mentioned as to
working overtime ?
Not ever.
23870. How often did the factory inspector visit you last year I
Last year twice.
23871 . Have you made any remark to any of your workmen as to their
giving evidence before this Committee ?
Yes.
23S72. Mhat did you say to them?
They were here ; they came here and heard the evidence given, and came
home and told me about it, and I could not understand which Smith it was at
first ; but after they explained his being a cripple, it came to my knowledge
that it was the one I used to employ in Medway-street, and I said, “ Well, if
he has uttered those words against me, which are untrue, I shall make him prove
it.” 1 went and consulted my solicitor, and he said, “ Is it true or not.” I said,
“ It is false.” I said, “ Would you be good enough to go with me and see him,”
and I went over and saw him, and he denied it. We came here to the House,
and we got permission to see the evidence, which we found perfectly correct.
He said, “ What a scoundrel the man must be.”
23873. Who said, “ What a scoundrel the man must be ” ?
My solicitor.
23874. And that is all that happened ?
Yes, at the time. T heard him speak here the other day in regard to making
a complaint to the inspector of nuisances against my factory in Medway-street,
which I believe to be perfectly untrue. It was a man that I discharged the day
before for being a lazy man about the place.
23875. Are you alluding to the same case you have just admitted yourself?
Yes.
23876. You have nothing more to say about that :
It is untrue.
23877. But you said just now that it is true ?
It is untrue that he went; it was another man that went and made a com-
plaint, a man that I discharged.
23878. That was what we vvere told before the Committee, that a man whom
you discharged went and made a complaint ?
I did not discharge Smith for tliat.
23879. He did not say you did. Have you, as a matter of fact, discharged
any of your workmen on account of evidence that they have given ?
Never.
23880. Did you discharge the daughter of one of the witnesses before this
Committee ?
No.
23881. Have you ever been connected in the way of business with any
public-house r
No.
23882. Never in any capacity ?
I have relations in the public line.
23883. But you yourself, I mean ?
When I first came to London I lived with an uncle.
23884. Who kept a public-house ?
Yes.
23885. And
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
519
28//« 1889.] Mr. PoTTON. \_Continued.
•23885. iVnd what did you do for him ?
I lived there till 1 got employment.
23886. You did not help him in his business in any way i
Yes, I did help him in his business.
23887. Were you ever employed as a builder’s labourer?
MHien we have been slack at work. We have this work to work at for
about seven months a year ; and at other times we have to do other work.
•23888. I think I understood you that your father carried on this business
before you ?
No, my wife's father.
23889. And when you married, you took up this business?
Along with the eldest son.
23890. And since then you have added to it the business of nursery boot
and shoe manufacturer?
Yes.
23891, Are vou still working for Almond ?
Yes.
23892. And have for a long time?
Yes. May I correct one statement in regard to when 1 went to the building
work? 1 was timekeeper at the South Kensington Museum, and I used to do
the work in the morning, and in the evening when I came home I still carried
on the business ; but it was not sufficient to support me and my wife, so I
used to go to work in the morning and come home and do this work at
night.
23893. What is the name of your foreman ?
Mr. Clark.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Air. JABEZ SMITH, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is
Examined, as follows ;
23894. Chairman.~\ Vou alluded in your evidence to valises ?
Yes, I did.
23895. And you said that it would he difficult for a viewer to tell whether
the proper thread and the proper number of stitches were used without very
careful examination ; that it would be necessary to turn them inside out r
The 1872 pattern bag was done at the same time as the 1882 pattern.
23896. Mr. Potton, commenting on your evidence, produced a valise in
which the seams could be seen without turning it completely inside out, and
said that was the valise you alluded to ; is that the one you alluded to?
He must know better than I did myself. The valise which I alluded to
when I said the viewer could not see it without turning, was an 1872 pattern
valise.
23897. And that has to be turned inside out ?
It is not very easy to see them without turning them.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. BENJAMIN SGIUIRE, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is
Examined, as follows :
23898. Chairman.^ Do you take work out from the contractors ?
Not now.
23899. You used to ?
Yes.
( 11 .)
3 T 4
23900. Up
520
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2m March 1889.] Mr. Squire. IContinued.
23900. Up till when ?
Up till somewhere between one and two year ago.
23901. What are you doing now ?
Working at Alexander Ross and Company’s.
23902. In what capacity ?
Asa foreman.
23903. Where is their factory ?
Grange-road, Bermondsey.
23904. When you were taking this contract work, whom did you take it
from r
From Alexander Ross and Company, nobody else, for 30 years.
■-'390.> Did you have a factory of your own then?
A house or two ; one house to live in, and another to work in, next door
to it.
23906. How many hands did you have in your house ?
It all depends whether things were busy ; sometimes there would not be
above five or six ; sometimes 20 or 30 in.
23907. Did you employ outside hands too
Yes.
23908. How' many ; I suppose that would depend also on the quantity of
the work ?
Yes, all depends on that.
23909. How many would you employ in your business r
I have done as much as 200 1 . a week in wages.
23910. Cannot you say about the number of hands ?
Some would, earn 5 1 . or 6 /. a week, and some not earn the same quantity of
shillings. It would depend upon what branches they worked in.
2391 1 . Now in your own shop did you employ women mostly, or at all ?
Never indoors, unless it has been one or two to do little alteration jobs.
2391 2. 'What do you do in your shop, preparing ?
Yes, preparing the work.
23913. x\nd sewing too ?
Yes.
23914. Is it all done by men ?
Indoors ; unless there are one or two women now and then to do a little job;
we never had'any women to work on the premises in any regular way, nor yet
any children ; never came under the Factory Act at all.
23915. No women, and no boys under age ?
We never came under the Factory Act at all. Mr. Redgrave called and
saw me once.
23916. You never employed any boys ?
No more than the errand boys, or the large boys as big as men.
23917. What kind of work did you get from Messrs. Ross?
Wet leather goods, such as carbine buckets, saddles, and all that sort of thing,
which required skilled workmen to do.
23918. Now you say that some of your workmen working in doors earned
5 1 . or 6 /. a week ?
Yes.
23919. What kind of work would that be?
In pack-saddles, or that sort of thing, wdien working 13 or 14 hours a day.
23920. What
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
521
2Sth March 1889.] Mr. Squire. \^Continued.
23920. Wliat would a man clear out of that ?
He would clear the lot of it barring a trifle for Ids twine or hemp.
23921 . Barring- the hemp and the wax, it would be all clear ?
Yes, and that would not cost him very much, not 'more than 1 5. a week.
23922. And he would have to come to you for the work, and to bring it back
to you ?
Yes.
23923. One hand you say working alone with nobody to help him, could
make 6 /. a week ?
They used to work on different parts of the work, and a good workman
would do work that he could get 3 d. a foot for, where a bad workman
would have to do it for 1 d. Very often of two men working together, one
would earn 1 1 . a week more than the other in the same hours.
23924. Did you ever take any work direct from the Government ?
Never.
23925. Or work for a contractor ?
Nobody, barring Ross and Company for over 30 years.
23926. Do you know what prices at that time Ross and Company were getting
from the Government?
No, never knew anything about that at all.
23927. All vou knew was what they paid you r
Yes.
2392S. Did you put your name on the goods ?
I used to put “ S ” on them, unless I was making the whole contract ; then I
did not put anything all.
23929. If you made a whole contract you put nothing on r
No, 1 did not stamp them then.
23930. Were your goods ever rejected?
Sometimes.
23931. What did Messis. Ross and Company do then?
If they were rejected for any fault in the manufacture, I should have to put
them right at my own expense ; if it was the leather, tliey gave me fresh leather
for them, and paid me for doing it.
23932. When goods are returned from the Government, does it state the
reason for the rejection ?
Yes; they make a chalk mark upon it; they chalk the leather, so that you
cannot use it any more ; you have to take out the leather and put fresh on.
They use a sort of flint stone for chalking ; they scratch right into it, take the
grain right off.
23933- Do you know whether there is any clause in the Government contract
that forbids the sub-letting of contracts ?
No ; I have never heard of that, not till I read of it in this Committee.
23934. Now you are a foreman at Messrs. Ross and Company’s .-
Yes.
23935. How many hands have they in their factory ?
I do not know ; a goodish lot.
23936. Do not you know:
I could not tell how many ; 50 or 60 ; something like that, or more.
23937* What are your duties as foreman?
Making saddles, and all that sort of thing ; any kind of things of that
sort.
(H-) 3U
23938. 1 ask
522
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2Sth Marc h 188 9.] Mr. Squire. \_Co>, tinned.
23938. I ask you what your duties are as foreman !
To prepare work for sewers and give the work to the people, and then take it
in and see that it is done properly ; to examine it as they bring it in, and take
it and give them more, and, see that they do it properly.
23949. Do not you know how many people are working in the factory r
No, 1 never thought of that ; I never counted them ; I did not think you
would ask me that question.
23940. How^ are you paid ; by a regular salary ?
Yes, by the week ; 2 1.
2394I. Nothing to do with the piece-work?
Not at all.
23942. Do you know anything of the contracts that Messrs. Ross & Co.
have '{
No ; only when we get the pattern or anything of that sort to go on
with.
23943. You have nothing to do with the contracts ?
W e are not doing any contracts for Government now.
23944. I am not talking of the Government, but any contracts ?
There is a pattern given to me, and the goccls are cut out by another foreman
and his men, and they are sent down to my shop that I may make them ; I get
them ready, and they have to go through my hands.
23445. .And you know nothing about the contract ; do not know the price
of it ?
No, never did know in my life ; never troubled myself to know because it was
no business of mine ; I should never think of such a thing as going fishing out
anything of that sort.
23946. I suppose if you do not know how many hands there are in the factory
you do not know whether they are men, women, or children ?
Yes, I do know that.
23947. How many women are there ?
I do not think there are any there.
23948. How many children?
Three or four boy^s run errands, sweep the shops, and that sort of thing.
23949. Is all their work done in the factory?
No.
23950. Where is the rest of the work done ?
Given out to people that v\ork for them. Some of them worked for them
before I did, some of the people I give the work to have worked for the place
for 40 years.
23951. Do they send any down to the country?
I do not think so.
23952. Not that you know of?
I do not know of any ; I think if they did, I should be sure to know it.
23453. When did they cease to get Government contracts?
It will be some time ago now ; 1 never heard of the date at all.
23954. How long have you been their foreman ?
1 have been acting as a foreman all the time, though 1 was working at home,
1 considered myself as a foreman for Ross and Company, because I did not do
anything for anybody else.
23955. What is the difference between you now as foreman, and when you
were sub-contractor for Ross and Company ?
When I was at piece-work for Ross and Company, I would know what I paid
the
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
28i!/i Marth 1889.]
Mr. Squire.
[ Continued.
the people. Suppose it was a carbine Imcket, I would take it home and call the
principal men together. I said, “ Here are so many of these to make, the price
is so and so ; ’ there was one man not a scholar, but the others that were
scholars used to write upon a piece of paper what would be a fair price tor the
closing of it, and the one that was not a scholar would speak up his price, and
then we would see how they came. Then we would go on to the next point.
For some part of it they would get 3 t/. a foot for four stitches to the inch, and
seven stitches to the inch would be a 1 d. a foot (that was different work), and
that a 1 r/. a foot I could get any quantity of hands to do.
23956. Are you talking of what goes on now ?
No ; 1 have got nothing to do with any prices at all now. If we found that
the price was not enough, we would try it for a week ; then if 1 went and told
Mr. Tomlin, Mr. Ross’s manager, he would say, “ If it is not enough for your-
self, I will give you some afterwards, as much as 4 d. or 6 d. more per article. I
have had the finish of the order.
23957- I to understand that you have nothing to do with settling the
prices paid to the men now ?
Not at all.
23958. What do you do?
I get the work ready for them, give it to them, and see that tiiey do it pro-
perly. Mr. Tomlin sets the price for the work.
239'59- What do you mean by what you said just now, that you acted as
foreman to Messrs. Ross and Company all the time that you sub-contracted ?
I reckoned that I was like a foreman to them, because I did not do anything
for anyone else, only for them.
23960. But you had to do with the prices then ?
Yel
23961. Now you have not?
No.
23962. Instead of making what you could out of the sub-contracts in former
time, you are now paid a weekly salary'
Yes.
23963. For doing the same kind of work ?
Yes.
23964. Lord Archbishop of Canterbury Only indoors ?
Yes
23965. Altogether ?
Yes.
23966. You have nothing to do with the outside people now?
I only give them the work they take away.
23966*. Chairman.^ Is there any list of prices up in your factory ?
No.
23967. Never has been?
I think there is a list of prices about valises, but I never read it, because that
was in a different part of the factory to where 1 worked.
23968. Do you know what you are paid now for leggings for drivers ?
No.
23969. You do not know the prices of any thing ?
Yes, I know tlie prices of a lot of things.
23970. But not the leggings ?
Yes, 1 do ; 7 V^w J 1
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( 543 )
Die Veneris, 29° Martii, 1889.
LORDS PRESENT:
Earl of Derby.
Earl Brownlow.
Viscount Gordon (^Earl of Aberdeen)-
Lord Foxford {Earl of Limerick).
Mount-Earl).
Lord Monkswell.
Lord Thring.
Lord Kenry (^Earl of Dunraven and
Lord KENRY (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl), in the Chair.
GEORGE H. WOODCOCK, is called in ; and, having been sworn,
is Examined, as follows :
24216. Chairman.'] What are you r
A harness maker.
24217. Where do you live ?
At Birmingham.
24218. Have you anything to do with the trades union ?
I am secretary of the Birmingham branch of the Union of the Sadlers and
Harness Makers.
24219. Are army accoutrement makers included in your branch ?
When they are harness makers as well.
24220. Is that generally the case ?
In all cases when they are members.
24221. Do you know anything of the Army accoutrement-making at
Only from information I have had given me by men who have worked on the
orders.
24222. Members of your union ?
Some, and some not; generally from the workpeople.
24223. But do you represent the workpeople at Walsall ?
No.
24224. They have not deputed you to speak for them ?
Only the Birmingham branch of the union. I have evidence in one case of
a Walsall contract.
24225. How is the work carried on in Birmingham ; in factories or in
shops ?
In factories, mostly on the ground.
24226. Does the same apply to Walsall, do you know?
Not to such an extent; there is more home work, I believe, there.
24227. How is this work done at Birmingham ?
Fairly well.
24228. I mean, how is the contract carried out in factories ?
The contractor gives it out to the preparer, who in most cases 6nds his own
stitchers, and then he finishes it.
(11.) 3Y4 24229. When
Walsall ?
544
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
29th March 1889.] G. H. Woodcock. [Continued.
24229. When you say the contractor gives it out to the preparer, do you
mean he sub-lets a part of the contract to the preparer ?
To his own workpeople on the ground.
24230. Just explain that ?
A contractor has an order, and he gives the shaft-tugs, we will say, out in
quantities to each preparer, w lio tlien employs his own stitchers, finishes them,
and books it, and r1ra\\ s his money and pays the stitchers himself.
24231. Does lie arrange the price that the stitcliers are to have?
The preparers between themselves, I believe, generally ; that is, before the
prices were fixed.
24232. Are these preparers paid by time, or how are they paid ?
Piece-work.
24233. T understand you to mean that they are paid so much for preparing
and finisliing the work, and then they get the stitching done the best way they
can themselves ?
And they pay for it out of the price they get.
24234. Is the stitching done in the factory ?
Yes, I believe so, in Birmingham.
24235. Earl of Limerick.'] You say you “ believe ” ; you are not Sfieaking of
your own personal knowledge, 5^0 mean ?
Well, 1 can say positively that the principal part of it is ; there may be, in
time of pressure, some done outside.
24236. Chairman.~\ But the habit is to have it all done in the factories, and
not done by people working outside^
Yes.
24237. Are women employed in this work ?
Yes.
24238. Largely?
Yes ; in the lighter portion of the work, principally women.
24239. Is it not the case that they also do the heavier work, like shaft-tugs,
back-bands, and so on ; are they done by the women ?
The information I have collected is that 2^-inch shaft-tugs were given out,
the first order, to Messrs. Middlemore, of Holloway Head, in 1886.
24240. My question was, is that work done by women ?
Not the shaft-tugs, I believe.
24241. Never?
I have never heard of any evidence of their being done by women in
Birmingham.
24242. What were you going to say about that order?
The orders of the shaft-tugs to Messrs. Middlemore and to Messrs. Mason
were given out to the preparers at 4 s. per pair, out of which they paid their
stitchers \s. 8 d. per pair ; and the stitchers found the hemp and wax, making
1 5. 6 d. net per pair, and three hours’ hard work, I should reckon. These, as
a society, and as men, we condemn as utterly impossible for women to do pro-
perly ; they have not the strength ; they are not used to heavy work, so as to
pull them in properly; and the inside of the shaft-tugs and the heavy back- bands,
the underside, they have to be pulled out with a jerk and plenty of wax kept
on the thread, so that the ttitch should be buried and not rub off when it comes
into fi iction with the shaft and saddle ; and this thread should be well waxed
during using, and that is neglected in general stitching more amongst women
than men.
24243. I thought you said, just now, that women never did these ?
In general work, I mean. Generally women do not wax tha thread.
24244. But
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
545
29th March 1889.] G. II. WoODCOCK.
\^Conlinued.
24244. But 1 thought you told me just now that, women never did this heavy
work, shaft-tugs ?
Not in Birmingham.
24245. Then what are you talking of now?
I want to say that they could, not do them properly.
24246. I do not quite understand ; because you say that they cannot do the
work properly, and you sav also that they do not do it ?
They have been done in Walsall by women; similar tugs in 1887 and
the beginning of 1888 were placed with Leckie and Company at Walsall.
Those were offered out to men (one man who is present now) at the low price
of 1 5. 9 d. per pair, preparing and paying for the stitching. Out of that, 10 d.
per pair had to be paid for the stitching ; that left lid. per pair for him
finishing.
24247. How do you get this information from Walsall ?
From a member of the trade who is present now. Shall I leave that evidence
out, and let him speak to it ?
24248. As far as Walsall is concerned, am I to understand that you have
collected the evidence from working men at Walsall ?
I have from two members of the trade, but one I cannot find ; one is a
Birmingham man now, and has come up to corroborate my statement on that
part of my evidence.
24249. But how’ did you get these facts ?
By inquiries amongst different men employed.
24250. At Walsall ?
In Birmingham. May I explain ? Birmingham and Walsall are only about
eight miles apart, and there are a lot of the trade that work backwards and
forwards, as orders come to one town or go to the other ; so that workmen
generally know the state of the trade in each town and the prices paid. My
reason for mentioning this was that on page 465, at Question 4724, Mr.
Morrison, in his evidence, in the latter part of his answer said : “Another firm,
viz., Mason, of Bath-row, in that town, does not adopt the same system (he had
been speaking of Messrs. Middlemore’s system), the latter firm being notorious
for low wages, in consequence of which their number of rejections are in excess
of the firm previously alluded to.” Then in answer to the next question, he
explains his knowledge of the practice of the firm by communication with the
workers there, men that have worked there for them. I do not say that Mr.
Morrison is wrong, but I think he is a little misled. I think he might have
had the evidence from Bermondsey workers. I believe that Messrs. Mason
really are as fair to the stitchers as any other firm in the town. It is a matter
between the preparers and the stitchers principally.
24251. Are Messrs. Mason at Birmingham or at Walsall?
Birmingham, Bath-row.
24252. Just let me understand that. You have mentioned these two firms
which have been mentioned several times before, Messrs. Middlemore and
Messrs. Mason ; does the same principle exist in both cases, of paying so much
to the preparer, and the preparer getting the stitching done by his own
arrangement ?
Yes ; I believe so.
24253. Both the same?
Yes.
24254. Do you know whether Messrs. Middlemore insist on a certain price
being paid for the stitching ?
I cannot say about their insisting on it.
24255. Then let us clear up the matter about these shaft-tugs and back-bands ;
(11.) 3Z I think
546
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
March 1889.] G. H. Woodcock. ^Continued,
I think you say they are not done by women in Birmingham but are done by
women in Walsall?
This particular order in 1887-88 was principally done by women and lads.
24256. In Walsall ?
Yes.
24257. Is that commonly done by women in Walsall, this heavy work ?
I am not sun* about its being commonly done, but in this case the price was
so low that men would not take it. A witness present refused to do them
at the price.
242 5 S. Is the work as well done?
No.'
24259. You mean to say that women cannot do that work as well as men?
I am sure they cannot
24260. Is it easy to tell the difference by looking at the work ?
Their stitching looks well ; but when it is closely e.xamined an experienced
man would be able to tell the difference.
24261. But he would have to examine it closely ?
Yes. And tlie women do not put the size threads in that should be put in ;
they could not do it. I may explain that I gave samples of that work to Mr.
Oram.
24262. That is to say, these {pointing to some samples) ?
Yes. That {pointing) is a sample of an average ordinary substance, and one
that should be stitched properly in the shaft-tugs. This one {pointing) is nearly
as heavy, hut not quite ; that is a l|-inch backhand.
24263. Are both of those men’s work ?
Yes, if stitched properly with a proper thread put in.
24264. It is your opinion that if the price is so low that the men will not do
the work hut women do it, the work is not as good as it ought to be ?
The Government suffer then if the articles are not rejected.
24265. And am I to understand also from you Jhat the appearance of the
women’s work is as good, and that it requires a close scrutiny to find out that
it is not what it pretemls to be ?
Well, an experienced man would tell, that is, taking up a tug or a backhand ;
but when looking at a quantity it might pass his notice.
24266. Then is it your opinion that the work ought to be paid for at a certain
price for the article, independently of whether it is done hymen or women ;
that if women do men’s work they ought to be paid the same rate of wage ?
If they do it as well they should be paid the same rate of wage.
24267. If women were paid the same rate of wages as men the result would
be, would it not, that women would not do this kind of work ?
Yes; that is shown by the instance of Messrs. Mason and Messrs. Middle-
more’s ; they paid a fair price, and the work was all done by the men.
24268. Then, when what you would consider an unfair price is paid the men
will not do it, but the women do it, and then the work is not so good ?
Certainly not.
24269. Do you think it would be possible to decide what kind of work could
be done by women ?
I think all the lighter kinds of military work; strapping, and that; there are
many jobs that they are able to do.
24270. Do you think it would be possible, for instance, for the Government to
draw out a list of articles that might be done by women, and a list of articles
that might not be done by women ?
1 think that that may be left between the employers and the men ; between the
employers and the preparers. 24271. But
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
547
293
2%th March 1889 .] Mr. Leckie.
[ Continncd.
I understand tlitit in some businesses where the people have retained the old
traditions they are in the habit of exacting that which was originally mutually
understood to be fair and rigiit, and nobody complains about it at all;
there has been no grievance in tin* trade in Walsall between the masters and the
workmen, or workwomen, tiiat ever I heard of ; everything goes on comfortably.
24455. How long does it take a man to make one of these shaft tugs ?
I was calculating that that man who made the biggest wages, Turner, must have
done one of those shaft tugs much more quickly than the rest ; he must have done
a shaft tug under an hour However, just as a matter of curiosity, my son and
the foreman had one of these women put on who assisted Mr. Oram with informa-
tion when he was round in our place. She was given a pair of tugs to do, and
she did one tug in one hour and 10 minutes, and she said she could make 20 or
2 b s. a week if she had nothing else to do. If she makes nine tugs a day, that is
4 5. Q d. per day ; that is 27 s. a week. I do not wish to bring this forw’aid ; I
merely give it as an illustration.
24456. You think that would be above the average ?
Yes; she is a very clever and strong woman, and it is just as easy for her to
do it as for a man to do it, and she has strength to do it as well as men.
24457. Do you suppose that, as a rule, they could sew a pair in three hours r
They could do it in a very easy manner. The man who earned 40 s. a week
must have done better. Some men who look handsome fellows are not worth
10 s. a week, and women could beat them hollow at stitching.
24458. Do you think three hours would be about the average for a pair ?
That would be an easy job.
24459. As to these mm that you mentioned as having done these military tugs,
of wliich you gave the price as Is. 10 d., did they do the preparing and finishing
as well as the sewing ?
They did ever , thing themcelves ; ue just gave them the leather cut, and they
did everything. We provided wax; they provided hemp only.
24460. Did they do it all themselves, or get the stitching done by others r
'i hey did it all themselves, as far as we know. They were there working all
the time the place was open, and they were not allowed to take anything away.
If nien are determined to take home a tug in their pocket to finish it, they
might bundle it up and nobody see it; but if they are working 10 or 11 hours
in the place they are pretty tired.
24461. Earl of Berhy.] You do not think that would often happen ?
Mo, 1 do not.
24462. Chcurman.] I think you told us that you employed all your stitchers
direct yourselves r
Yes, all our stitchers, excepting those whom Mr. Mann has in his shop ; he
employs all his hands himself.
24463. It is not your practice, as we have heard is someiimes the case, to
pay the [)reparer and finisher a lump sum for the work and let him get the
stitching done, and pay the stitcher ?
In the case of Mann that is the case, but he must pay the stitcher the same
price as we pay the stitcher, and as the stitcher is paid elsewhere.
24464. You mentioned shackles. Are you correct in including them in the
military accoutrements ?
Yes I do not know that that is the technical name in the War Office ; I
believe they are called hobbles. I do not know the exact name tiiat the Govern-
ment call them ; it is for hobbling up a horse, at all events.
24465. Now you have told us that you have large contracts for saddlery and
harness ; is all that done by women, the stitching?
All plain stitching of goods in Walsall is done by women, except where the work
is very hard and the woman has not been trained to it ; but for plain stitching
they do all. Men learn to use the awl and needle tor intricate and important
skilled work, and they do all that work, but for plain meehanical work women
are far quicker and neater.
( 11 .)
4 B 2
24466. Some
564
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
29//i 1889.] Mr. Leckie. \_Continued.
24466. Some of that is heavy Avork, is it not ?
There are things that are heavy, but these people do not consider them heavy.
'\ he strapping of ordinary single and double harness, the select few women of
experience and strength in the first rank consider this work quite easy.
24467. You do not think too heavy ?
There are some women who could not do it at all, but the thing gravitates,
and everything comes down to its own level. There are people who find that
they can do harness work; those that are light and delicate go into lighter work.
24468. I am talking of the harness work. That work you think can be
thoroughly well done by women ?
There are parts of harness, of course, that are very light ; the strappings, the
bridle w ork, and things of that kind are light work ; and, as a matter of fact,
all those fine riding bridles and hunting bridles.
24469. I am talking of the Government work. You told us that you executed
contracts to the e.xtent of 25 , 000 /. of saddlery and harness, and so on?
Yes, we have executed contracts for that ; we are open to execute them again,
and the War Office are glad to ask us to tender.
24470. I asked you whether you think that the heaviest kinds of that class of
work can be made as well by w'omen as men ?
No, I said that that heavy work was too heavy for women ; but if I had been
unfeeling, and had thought of grinding the faces of the poor, and making women
do what I thought too heavy work for them, I should have at once given the
whole thing to women, and got it done by women ; but we did not do so,
because we had plenty of other work for them, and I do not believe that that is
the proper work for w-omen.
24471. Do I understand that you think some of the heavy work is unsuitable
lor women and ought to be done by men ?
Yes, nobody would evei- think of giving the heavy things to women to do, like
tugs and back-bands for heavy artillery.
24472. I think you said that the same regular statement of prices obtained
all through Walsall ?
Yes, that is the rule ; everybody knows the price that is interested.
24473. You pav, and everybody pays the same price ?
Yes.
24474. No variation in the different factories :
As far as is known, that is the rule ; there may be cases which are not
known ; people are siiifting about. If we are busy we will take on 50 or 100 people
extra, and when the work is done rhey will go away and work elsewhere ; so
everybody lomes to know what is done in every other place. But sometimes
prices rise and fall according to state of trade.
24475. Earl of Derby. ^ You have told us that some kinds of the work you
have been descril)ing are unsuitable for women ; is it within your knowledge
that there is ever any pressure ptit on women to do work they ought not to be
required to do ?
1 am not aware of it. I think it is quite the reverse ; they are all so anxious
to work that I think the thing is the reverse.
24476. On the other hand, do you think there is any pressure put upon
women to prevent their doing work which they are able to do, and which they
are willing to do, in order to prevent their competing with men ?
There was an attempt made by a lady, I believe it was Miss Clementina Black,
and Mr. Morrison, to get up some fermentation of ill-feeling on the part
both of the women and of the men in Walsall against the system adopted
of women doing any stitching at all in the town, except at prices fixed for
men by trades societies ; and I know for a fact that meetings were held,
because they were published in tlie newspaper, in which great speeches were
made by Mr. Moriison and others with him trying to enlist the sympathy of
the women and of the men to defend their rights and so on, by getting societies
established in the town such as they have, I believe, in London and elsewhere
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
5G5
2dth March 1889.] Mr. Leckie. \_Continncd.
in England, trade union societies. But the}'^ radically failed in being able to
make the slightest impression upon the working people of Walsall ; and that
arose from the fact that the women and tiie men both saw that if they fell into
the snare that was put for them by Mr, Morrison and his friends, they would
get no work at all in Walsall, and that by and by Walsall would have no \\ ork
to give anybody, because the Walsall trade is quite a peculiar and distinctive
business, quite different from anything done anywhere else. We have an immense
business done there for all the world in saddlery goods, and that is an historical
business of 150 years’ existence ; and it is because of the sub-division of labour,
because of special care being paid to the thousand and one different branches
of the business, and everything being so wrought up in quantities, that we are
enabled at all to exist as a community and to e-hip our goods to every part of
the habitable world in face of the competition by foreign countries and
colonial labour. The people in London and the people in Manchester and
other places who are supplying your Lordships and other gentlemen with
harness and saddles, those people are all paying day’s wages, and in shops ;
and they get the thing done very nicely and they pay very dearly for it ; but
the fact is the men in London get more money as a general rule for doing the
work connectetl with an article than we get for the whole thing in cases of cheap
goods at Walsall. So this trade, as a wholesale and shipping business, is totally
distinct and different from theirs; and therefore these persons coming down to
establish a society failed utterly in being able to do it ; and there never has been,
in my experience, the least disaffection among the workers, or misunderstanding
between the employers and the workpeople in the town of Walsall among the
leather workers in our line.
24477. Chairman.^ Do you use machinery ?
We have about a dozen machines ; yes, more,
24478. What do you use them for?
We have a few heavy machines, very heavy machines, which cost a big sum
of money, and they work with a waxed thread, and they can do heavy work,
half an inch thick belting and other heavy work that is wanted for manufactories,
and then we have light machines for doing all kinds of light work, all driven by
steam power.
24479. Is your work pretty constant ?
Our general trade is very regular and very steady, but this business connected
with the contracts is a very fluctuating quantity, and we never bother much
about it if we are busy otherwise. Labour is plentiful in Walsall, and when con-
tracts are out we try and get them to give work to the local hands who may be idle
24480. .Are your hands employed full time all the year round r
We try one way and the othei’ to keep them em])loyed, and that is the reason
we go in for contracts occasionally to fill up and keep the thing level.
24481. I think you saitl that no disputes had arisen between employers and
employed ?
I never heard of such a thing, and I have inquired.
24482. Had you no dispute with your stitchers in 188 / ?
No, we never had any dispute with stitchers. I remember Mr. Oram, your
Lordships’ representative, to whom we gave every assistance and information,
mentioned something about head collars; that there was some statement made
to him that in some way or other we differed with our people about the price of
head collars, that we wanted them to do head collars for a little less than they
had been doing them for ; but on making inquiry about it, I think we found
afterwards there was no foundation for it at all. I think there niiMit have been
o
at sometime perhaps a difference of a farthing with the foreman, and the
people would come down to me and i would settle it at once. If a dozen women
came down from a department I would listen to them, and, if I thought it
desirable, give them a farthing or a halfpenny more, and settle up the thing;
but 1 never heard of what I should call a dispute on any matters like those.
24483. Do you know if a statement of prices, of wages to be paid, has been
fixed in any way by the Director of Contracts ?
(11.) 4B3
Yes.
566
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
29th March 1889.]
Mr. Leckie.
r Continued.
Yes. Mr. Nepean has been very anxiously engaged in this very matter,
and he is very desirous of meeting the objections of the gentlemen in
London here who have been taking up this labour (juestion, and of course
he has been attempting to get our prices, and to get the Birmingham prices,
and to get the contractors’ prices in London ; and altogether he is trying in some
way to make the prices equitable and fair all round. We have just made up a
list of prices which our people should be paid for general saddlery and harness
stitching, and we sent it on to him, and I have no doubt that he will be using
that as well as the information of a kindred nature from other people, with a
view of establishing a fixed scale of prices. But tlie point which the Walsall
industry wished me to mention is that they ai’e afraid that if the Government give
a sufficient price to please the gentlemen stitchers in London here, they may
prohibit females from doing that class of work at Walsall which they have
hitherto been doing and which they can do as well as, and they say better than,
what the men in London can do, the finest class of the work. And so I was to
mention from them that it is hoped that whatever changes may take place, your
Lordships may report that you see a difference between the women labour and
the men labour ; that is to say, a man who has a family requires to earn 25 s.,
2 Qs., or 30 ^. a week ; whereas a woman, whether a single woman or a married
woman, is quite satisfied (because of the number of people of that sex that are
wanting to get something to do) with less ; and having been brought up to this
business they would like to have the business continued to them and to their
children, as they received it from their mothers and their fathers in our town.
And so the question you have to consider between tlie men and women’s stitches
is just this question about the men’s prices in London, and the women’s prices
in Birmingham and in Walsall.
24484. I understand you that if the prices were the same, you think the
women would lose the work, although they do it as well, you say, as the men ?
It would be this : we, as employers, could not get on at all. Supposing the
men were getting for an article in London, or at Middlemore’s and at Mason’s, 1 s.
for sewing, our women would be quite satisfied to do a similar thing at half the
price. If a contract came down to us, and we had the contract to give out, and
the women were to get twice the price foi- sewing that they were quite satisfied
with, we could not get sufficient work for all our people ; and there would be
grumbling at this woman going away on Saturday with 20 or 30 5 . a week,
and another woman, a general work woman, going away with only 10 5. or 12 s.
That is the difficulty, we think.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr ROWLAND MASON, is called in; and, having been sworn, is
Examined, as follows :
24485. Chairmati.] What is your business ?
I am senior partner of D. Mason and Sons, Wholesale Saddlery, Harness,
and Accoutrement Manufacturers, and Government Contractors.
24486. And where is your place of business?
Bath-row, Birmingham.
244S7. I think your firm was mentioned as having a large number of
rejections, was it not ?
Yes.
24488. T see it is in answer to Question 46 / 6 , “ Mason and Sons, out of
30,400 articles, had primary rejections to tlie number of 43'34 per cent. ” ?
Yes.
24489. Have you anything you would like to say on that point ?
It is true that my firm had seven contracts for accoutrements for the period
of the last five years, ending March 188 /, and that the percentaije of rejections,
according to the summary given by Lieutentant Hendley, was 43 * 34 .
24490. Who is Lieutenant Hendley ?
I do
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
567
29jA March 1889.] Mr. Mason. \ Continued.
I do not know who he his. He gave evidence before the Judge Advocate
General in tlu- investigation into certain transactions in connection with the
inspection of certain leather at the Ordnance Store Department at Woolwich.
It is to be regretted that he did not give the summary embracing the whole
inquiry. If lie had done so, he would have found that it would have been
different altogether. The seven contracts amounted to 2,336 2 s. lOrf.
During the same period my firm supplied the Government with 93,824 1. 15^.
(all obtained by tender, except 1,723 1. 16s. Qd.), and I sent a list to the War
Office of goods supplied to the War Office for five years from the 1st January
1882 to 31st December 1 886, comprising the period included in the summary
presented by Lieutenant Hendley. We supplied to the Royal Clothing Depot,
Pimlico, as follows : We had 55 contracts; the articles consisted of 1,644,818
articles ; the number of primary rejections was 53,734, namely 3*2 per cent.
24491. What were those articles ?
Strappings principally ; and also belts and pouches for the Post Office. We
supplied in the same period to the Boyai Dockyard, Woolwich, saddlery and
harness. We had 59 contracts; the number of articles was 391,714 ; we had
rejections to the amount of 13,690 articles, or 3’4 per cent. In the accoutrement
branch of the same office we had 14 contracts; the number of articles was
89,666 ; the number of rejections was 14,800, or 16'5 per cent. Royal Carriage
Factory, Woolwich ; number of contracts 12 ; number of articles 8,673 ; number
of rejections 666, or 7‘6 per cent. The Royal Laboratory, Woolwich, five
contracts ; the number of articles 2,295, and the number of rejections 122, or
5'3 per cent. This summary does not include the shicep-skins which were
returned for being badly dyed. Then I may mention that about 49,000/.
worth was supplied in one year, namely 1885.
24492. Whatvvhere the goods that these large numbers of rejections occurredin?
Mr. Arnold White, in his evidence, stated that they were returned because
of bad workmanship ; these goods were not returned because of bad workman-
ship. The first sui)ply were too light, and then afterwards we made them too
heavy. Some of the goods were badly made, but very few in the percentage.
24493. What were these goods of which you made 30,400 articles ?
Accoutrements.
24494. Do you do all your work in your factory }
As a rule, all preparing is done in the manufactor}, but stitching is not all
done in the manufactory. I said that we supplied in one year about 49,000 1.
worth ; the exact figures are, 48,627 L 7 s. 3 d.
24495. And you do all the preparing and finishing, 1 suppose, in the factory ?
Yes.
24496. And some of the stitching is done outside?
Yes.
24497. But some of the stitching is done inside ?
The majority.
24498. Is that done by women or men ?
That is according to what it is. Harness, principally, is done by men, but
bridle-stitching would be done by females, and portions of saddlery wmuld be
done by females and also by men.
24499. I heavier work is done by men, and the lighter
work done by women ?
Yes.
24500. What would be the heaviest work that women do r
winch branch? I will take the harness, for instance, to begin with. They
ought not to do anything in harness except buckling ; nothing in harness
belonging to Government, at all events.
24501. You say they ought not?
I think it is too strong work; 1 think they cannot do it properly.
(11.) 4 B 4 24502. But
568
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
22th March 1889.]
Mr. Mason.
[ Continued.
24502. But do they do it ?
Not to my knowledge, except buckling ; they do not for us.
24503. Could you get women to do it if you wished ?
I do not know.
-4.5^4- fsll us what you are paying; what your hands are earning r
Yes.
24505. Do you pay the men who prepare and finish the work by time or by
piece ?
Piece. We have no one in our employ who employs another, except Crook,
the collar maker; he is allowed to employ others, but there is no one else in the
place who can, except harness makers, who employ stitchers.
24506. As I understand you, you give out the work to the preparers at s'*
much for the work, and they employ their own stitchers ?
For the harness department, but not for the bridle department ; we pay the
bridle stitchers direct ; they are all females.
24507. In the other case, you do not know anything about the price that
the preparer pays the stitcher, 1 suj>pose ?
N ot for certain ; I have not it in our books.
24508. It is no business of yours, is it?
No. I do know the prices, or supposed prices, that are given; but it is not
in our books.
24509. So that if the preparer can get the stitching done very cheaply, he
makes more out of the job ?
Every man is separately employed by us. The law of supply and demand
can operate ; if one man could get it done cheaper I suppose he w'ould
do so.
24510. And the cheaper he got it done the more he would make himself:
Yes.
24511. Are all the preparers and finishers men ?
Yes.
24512. How many have you in your factory ?
It varies, according to whether we have a contract on hand or not ; I should
say the average is 200.
24513, Two hundred preparers and finishers and stitchers ?
Yes.
24514. Do you put out any of your contracts :
No.
24515. You execute them all yourself?
Every one. I may qualify that a little. In 1885 we gave some work out,
and also in 1878.
24516. Do you mean that if you got a large contract and were pressed for
time you might put some of it out, or why do you give it out sometimes ?
Under pressure, those periods being during a war crisis.
24517. How do you settle the prices that you pay the preparers; do you
settle them yourself, or does the foreman settle them r
Before we tender for a contract we arrange for the prices to be given, and
sometimes there have been cases where we have given more than was arranged;
but as a lule it is carried out throughout.
24518. You settle the prices with whom ?
With the foremen and the men; it is done through the foremen. I have an
interview with the foremen, and then they arrange with the men, and then it is
reported upon, and we tender accordingly.
24519. And
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
569
22th March Mr. Mason. [^Continued.
24519. And supposing the foremen can get it done a little cheaper?
I never knew a case where we have given lower prices than wt. arranged at
the time of tendering.
24520. But if you arrange with the foremen for such and such a price, and
the foremen arranges with the men for a little less, the foremen would make a
profit of the difference, I suppose r
No; we pay the men ; we have the men’s books.
24521. The foremen have nothing to do with that?
It is paid through them ; we have tlie men’s books in their own writing, and
then we give the money to the foremen on Saturday, and they give it to the
men ; but we have all the books.
24522. The foremen do not and eannot act as middlemen in any way
between you and the men ?
No, they cannot.
24523. Do vou pay the foremen weekly salaries ?
Yes.
24524. Can you tell us what priees you pay ; take any contract you like to
pick out ?
I have a long list here. One of the witnesses this morning stated that we
gave \ 0 \d. for stitching back-bands, and afterwards I5. He did not state what
kind of hack-bands they were, only military back-bands. Now there are two
kinds of back-bands; one is the Army Service Corps haek-band, which is if
inches ; and the other is the Artillery back band, which is inches ; the price
that we paid for the if-inch was 2 .9. 3 d., and for the 2 1 -inch, 2 s. Q d. Now
I believe that the price given for the stitching was respectively Is. Q d, and
\ s. d.
24525. That you do not know?
I have asked a stitcher who is in our employ how much, and he informed me
that that was the amount.
24526. What were you getting from the Government for that?
You want our contract price for supplying the artiele ?
24527. Yes ?
I do not know ; I have not the figure.
34528. Have you got your contract prices for anything here ?
No.
24529. You could not give them to me?
1 have not them with me and I do not know them. Every contract varies.
We tender and, I suppose, if we are the lowest we are accepted.
24530. I am anxious to get the contract prices from you, but if you have not
got them of course you cannot give them. Now as to this evidence which has
been given before the Committee as to the three-eord thread being used instead
of five-cord thread, do you think that that is a common occurrence ?
I do not think so. One of the witnesses said this morning that if the con-
tractors supplied the hemp it would prevent fraud. Well, I do not think so ;
for this reason ; the fewer number of cords there are the easier it is to stitch, and
unfortunately we have to be very careful in examining articles ; 1 am sorry it is
so.
24531. Have you ever had any articles rejected on that account ?
I have no doubt we have. The Inspectors do not officially state all the causes
of rejections, but when the article comes back there is a chalk mark upon the
defects.
24532. Do you not know what they are rejected for ?
The notification of inspection states the reason the goods are rejected.
24533- What kind of supervision do you exereise over the goods that are
(11.) 4 C made
570
minutes of evidence taken before the
2Mh March 1889. j Mr. Mason. \^Continued.
made for you, to satisfy yourselves that the proper iimnber of stitclies are put in
or the proper qualities and thickness of thread used ?
The foreman of each department examines every article before it is sent into
the warehouse, where my brother or I generally inspect the goods before they
are packed. Our foremen have been in our employ from 20 to 30 years.
24534. Then if you sent in any of these goo Is to the Government, I presume
it would be because you had failed yourselves to detect that the proper quality
of thiead was not used ?
Yes.
24535. And would it be cas}^ to deceive you in that way ?
Yes.
2453d. You mean that it is not a very easy thing to see at a glance that the
proper thread is used or the i)roper number of stitches used ?
Exactly so.
24537. Is most of the woiA carried on in Birmingham in factories, in your
trade ?
All, I believe.
24538. I suppose there are some out-workers, are there not ; people who work
at home ?
I do not know of any. In cases of emergency we should go to a small master
to help us.
24539. Do your stitchers take any work home ?
They do a little.
24540, Then you would not know, I presume, whether they hired people to
help them with that, or were helped at it by their cwn family ?
No, I should not.
24541 . Therefore their wages might appear to he much larger than they really
were r
Yes.
24542. Can you give us any average of wages earned by men and women ?
I went through the books last Saturday ; 1 thouglit it as well to take the last
week. I find there were 30 stitchers, and the average was 11s. 4 r/. ; some of
them would be } Oung girls; some of them would be having 15 ’s. a week. Then
a month j)reviously, the same week in February, ending the 23 rd February, we
had 28 stitchers, and the average was 9 s. 7 d.
24543. Do you employ young girls and boys as apprentices; learners ?
We have some young girls as stitchers ; we have no lioys that I can think of
now, except with the foremen for running errands.
24544. Have you any place of business in London ?
W e have an office in London ; 14 , St. Mary Axe.
24545. You do not manufacture in London ?
No.
2/546. Have vou ever?
No, we never have.
24547. Do \ou know whetiier there is a tendency in this trade to leave
Loudon for Birmingham and Walsall, and other places?
I do not know. I know London is the greatest competitor we have for
Government contracts.
24548. Do you have a list of prices posted up in your factory ?
l or the (ontrait that we have at the present time we -have a list posted_^up,
and we are giving 25 per cent, more for stitching than we agreed upon.
24549. How was that list settled ?
\\ iien we contracted we sent in the prices w^e intended to give to the Diiector
of Army Contracts.
24550. That
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
rvi
29^4 1889,] Mr. Mason. \_Continued.
24550. That is a new thing, is it not?
It is.
24551. Are you aware whether a good deal of this heavier work that you
think ought to be done by men is done by women in Walsall ?
I am not aware.
24552. Is there anything else you wish to say ?
I may say that some of our competitors may state that they have given
higher prices than we have; but I think that we have been more successful in
obtaining contracts during the 10 last years than any one in Birmingham has
for saddlery and harness. Labour is subjeet to the law of supply and demand.
We seldom give thrice the same price for the making of an article.
24553. Are prices much lower now than they were, say, five years ago?
Five years ago would be 1884 ; prices were good then.
24554. I am not particular about five years. I v. ant to know generally
whtther the prices you pay are less now than formerly ; whether the general
tendency is to go down ?
The prices are about the same now as they were formerly. In the latter end
of 1884 , I think, the Government were preparing for the Afghanistan affair, and
there were some large eontracis out in November 1884 . The witness Morrison, at
No. 4725, page 465 , is asked, “Might I ask how you know the practice of this
firm” (meaning us) “in Birmingham;” and his answer is: “By communication
with the workers there; men tliat have worked for them.” I thought it was
my duty to write to the newspaper, a Birmingham paper, that published the
evidence given before this Committee, and Mr. Morrison wrote asking to know
the paper in which our criticism appeared, and I wrote and informed him, and
he, in a week after, wrote the letter in which he states he was unable to see
anyone who was in our employ, but saw a man who used to be in oui- employ.
I have handed the letter to ilie Committee Clerk. •
24555. The contention here in this answer. No. 4725 , by Mr. Alorrison, is,
that he became aw^are of the practice of your firm “by communication with
the workers there”; he was asked were they members of his society, and he
says, “ Yes, some of them are.” Now, 1 understand that you had a letter from
Mr. Morrison in which he contradicts that?
Yes.
24556. Then you had better read it ; you wish, 1 presume, to show that Pdr.
Morrison’s e\idence in respect of your firm is inaccurate, because he had no
means of information ?
Yes. I do not know’ Mr. Morrison ; I have never seen him; I have not the
slightest idea who he is, except what the Blue Book says.
24557. That letter, you say, refers to what hesaysin the passage you havequoted?
Yes.
24558. Then, wall you read it ?
“ 1 desire to acknowledge your courtesy to hand. Sinee v/riting you, I have
been favoured with a copy of your letter of the 2nd October. I do not know if
it was your intention that any reader .should infer from it that my evidence was
given with the intention of pushing the work of Middlemore in preference to
that of any other employer. It reads to me and others that your criticism
points that way. Permit me to say that 1 had no brief for any employer; I
spoke as a workman, and for the workmen. My authority, re your firm, is a
man whom I have always found reliable, and who was in your employ and
employed others under him, i.e., .sweated them. He informs me that he is
perfectly willing to substantiate the assertion at the j>roper time and place.
Respecting my calling on Mr. Middlemore, I had an introduction to one of his
workmen who induced me to see Mr. Middlenmre. The prices that Mr.
Middlemore forwarded on to me I have every reason to believe are his present
prices. I did not use them to bolster his business, but, to prove as a logical
argument that where an employer paid the best prices, and his work came out
best, and gained approbation from them who daily use it.”
(11.) 4 c 2
24559.
5/2
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
29th March 1889.] Mr. Mason. \_Continued.
24559. Do not read any more than you think necessary for what you want
to show ?
“ Had I known any of your workmen at the time of my visit to Birmingham,
I should have been only too glad to have called on them ; 1 waited outside your
firm, after callitig at Holloway Head, with the hope of meeting some of your
men, but failed to see any come out at the time. I could not stay in the town
beyond the morning, as I had business in the “Sweaters’ Home” (Walsall) to
transact, of importance.”
24560. Is that all you desire to read of it ?
That is all.
24561. What date does that refer to ?
The letter is dated 16th October 1888.
24562. What you have just now read, I mean ; “ I waited outside your firm,”
and so on r
That is just previously to giving evidence before this Committee. It appears
he came down to Birmingham and had an interview with Mr. Middlemore, and
waited outside to see some of our people, and could not see them.
24563. But how do you know it occurred before he gave evidence ?
He says so, mentioning, “ Respecting my calling on Mr. Middlemore.”
24564. He does not say the time that he waited outside your place ; when do
you say the date of the letter was ?
16th October.
24565. The evidence w^as given on the 12th of June.
But it was not published in the Birininghara newspaper till after it was laid
on the Table of the House. I think you will find that the number of articles
supplied liy the Clovernment in saddlery and harness is 334, and the accoutre-
ments 367, besides leather articles for camp and field equipment ; so it is mani-
festly unfair to c^uote five or six prices only of work in so large a number of
articles.
24566. Are you alluding to anything stated in evidence ?
Yes ; Morrison quoted five prices that Middlemore gave, and then he does not
quote uhat we have given at all.
24567. I do not quite understand what ymu mean ; where is it that your
prices are referred to ?
Page 465, Question 4724.
24568. He does not say anything about your prices there?
No, but he says that we are “ notorious ” for paying low wages ; he does not
give any prices at all ; that is what I complain of.
24569. You sa}'^ that you do not pay these low prices?
Exactly so.
24570. Would you like to give us any prices that you do, that you are paying
at present ?
I can give all if necessary.
24571. Have you any list there ?
Yes.
24572. Let me look at it?
{The Witness hands it to the Chairman.)
24573. Are these Army accoutrements ?
Yes.
24574. All of them ?
Yes. 1 have not gone into the commercial part at all. Mr. Oram had the
prices from the workmen direct and he submitted them to me afterwards, and
I can substantiate them.
24575. I think
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
573
29th March 1889.] Mr. Mason. \_Continnctl.
24575. J tliink the best plan would be, if you want rn put in a list, of your
prices, to make out a short list. '1 bis is hardly in a form to be put in r
I have no wish either one way or the other.
24576. Perhaps you would let us have a list of 'prices?
Very well ; but the prices of to-day may not he the prices of to-morrow ; we
only know' what we have given ; we cannot say what we shall give.
-4577- That would be difficult for anybody to do. Will you give us the
prices which you have given ?
Yes. ( Vide Appendix P.)
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Mr. JOHN LECKIE, having been re-called ; is further Examined,
as follows :
24578. Chairman^ You desire to add something to your evidence ?
You asked me about the payment of threepence a week by the women and
fourpence a week by the men for gas, heat, rent, &c. I mentioned that those pay-
ments were only made in the case of those that are fully employed and earning
good wages. I find that only last week 60 of our hands paid, and for the whole
twelvemonth all the money taken off the men and women together was 41/.
18.9. while the wages paid were 6,389 1 . This sum is supposed nominally to
stand in lieu of rent and taxes, fire, heating, tools, and so on. I found that last year,
the value of our premises with the taxes, and expenses of providing accommoda-
tion and convenience, was 617 /• 10 s. ; so that this 41 1 . is a very small return to
us for 6 17 /• 10.9. paid. Tliat is what I meant to call attention to ; that it is not a
grievance at all ; in short, it is not 7i per cent, on what we pay for what this
sum is supposed to represent ; that this thing is not so large an affair as they
have been representing it ; and I have mentioned before, the reason for it. The
only other thing I forgot to say before is, that in making a comparison between
London prices and Walsall prices, I wish tt) bring before your Lordships the
fact that in Walsall we are in a country place where houses are low rented,
where they are very commodious, and where they are self-contained, and have
little gardens, and everything that makes life desirable. In London they have
no such accommodation near their places at all, and miserable places they have
to live in, and to pay an enormous rent for them ; and I asked one of our people
who has been in London, or my foreman asked him ; I have got the information
at all events ; and he said to me that 28 s. a week in Walsall is equal to 38 s. a
week in London ; he is a married man. And a number of our women have
been in London on trial, but they would not stay; 10 5. a week, they say in
Walsall is to them equal, taking lodgings and so on, to 15 5. in London.
24579. When you say to a number of women, to wiiom did they say it?
I spoke to our foreman, who knows all about the thing.
24580. And your foremen told you that the women told him ?
I could give you nearer evidence on that perhaps, but I think that is more
reliable evidence than an}^ of the evidence you have had from the gentlemen
representing trades union societies, who have all given hearsay evidence.
2458 1 . Have you anything more to say ?
I wish to say that this question is a trade union business.
24582-3. What question?
Against Walsall.
Chairmati.J I do not think we want to go into that.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
( 11 .)
4 C 3
574
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
22th March 1889 .
Lieutenant Colonel N. WILLOUGHBY WALLACE, is called in; and,
having- been sworn, is Examined, as follows ;
24584. Chairmam ^ You have a factory, have you not?
Yes.
24585. Where
At 139 and 140, Great Dover-street.
24580. How long has your factory been established ?
About three months.
24587. Are you executing Government contracts?
I am, at the present time.
24588. You have a large contract for valises r
I have a contract for 10,000 valises and 3,000 sets of equipments. I had a
tender sent to me for 10,000, but I only said I wished to have 3,000 allotted to
me, if my tender was sufficiently low to get any.
24589. And for the valises you got some of the material cut or partly
prepared from Ross & Co., did you not ?
J did.
24590. Are you still doing that?
No.
24591. Why did you discontinue that ?
Because I had an interview with Mr. Broderick, the Financial Secretary, and
Mr. Napean, and after I told them that I was getting the material cut by Ross,
and that I did not consider that that cutting came under the head of preparing,
I told them that if it was Mr. Stanhope’s wish that Ross should discontinue the
cutting, I w'as prepared, although the expense might be increased, to lake
fresh rooms and have the cutting done entirely separately i'rom Messrs, Ross ;
and when I got a distinct order from Mr. Stanhope, through Mr. Nepean, that
such was to be the case, I had all the material and all the stamping and cutting
machines taken over to the house which I hired ; and from that day up to the
present (that is now over six weeks ago, before the assembling of Parliament)
not one single thing of any sort has been done by Messrs. Ross & Co.
24502. Does the factory belong to you, or is it a company ?
The factory belongs to me ; it is taken in my name, insured in my name, the
men are engaged in my name, and the agreement drawn up with the foreman
is in my name.
24593. All the plant and machinery is yours, is it ?
The plant and machinery is not mine.
24594. Whom does that belong to r
The plant and machinery was loaned to me by Messrs. Ross; but I must tell
you that the knives were cut for the Slade-Wallace equipment long before any
difficulty arose about Ross, for the simple reason that we have been working
wiih iVlessrs. Ross & Co. for the last three years making our equipments;
and it was hardly likely that we could be expected to go to the expense of
having new knives cut ourselves, when the knives which actually prepared the
equipment, and cut the equipment, were then in Messrs. Ross’s possession, and
we had practically jjaid for having them manufactured for us.
24595. Then what is the nature of your arrangement with Messrs. Ross
& Co. t
That I purchase all the material from them in precisely the same way as any
other contractor would do ; that they invoice that material to me, though Ross’s
give me, perhaps, a rather longer credit than most other contractors would get,
because 1 had to put a certain amount of money into the. bank myself, and had then
to wait till I got repayment from the Government on orders which were passed,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
575
29th March 1889.] Lieutenant Colonel N. W. Wallace. \_Contiriued.
and as I get the credit-notes passed through, I get the invoice, and pay Ros
k. Co. that amount. I keep separate hooks, and have brought them here.
24596. Do you pay them for the use of tlie machinery?
No, I do not pay them anything for the use of the machinery ; 1 simply pay
them for the invoiced materials.
24597. And they lend you the machinery r
Tliey lend me the machinery.
24598. With that exception are you doing all the Government work in your
own factory?
With that exception, I am doing all the Government work in my own factory,
except the machining- of the valises, which is done at Mrs. Featherstoue’s
factory, in Vienna Works, Brandon-street, and which I specially got permission
officially in writing from the War Office to do, as Mrs. Featherstone was on the
list of War Office contractors; and therefore, I was permitted to have the
valises machined there.
24599. Has Mrs. Featherstone got a shop of her own ?
She has got a factory of her own.
24600. Was she with Messrs. Ross & Co. before ?
She was with Messrs. Ross & Co. for years and years, but has no connection
with Messrs. Ross & Co. at all now. I believe, as a matter of fact, when she
left, Messrs. Ross & Co. presented her with a large portion of the machinery
she now uses in order to set her up in business by herself.
24601. Do you have a list of the prices you pay your hands posted up in the
factory ?
Not only in the factory, but read to every mau when he is engaged.
24602. How was, that settled?
A list of prices was sent in to Mr. Nepean, together with those of other con-
tractors, and what he considered fair was then arranged and printed and put in
the factory.
24603. That is for the various parts of the work ?
Yes.
24604. Preparing, stitching, and so on ?
Preparing, stitching, and welting and everything.
24605. Do you pay the stitchers who work for you direct ?
Direct ; nothing is done for us out of the factory at all.
24600. Do the preparers pay the stitchers, or do you pay them ?
Every individual in tlie factory is paid separately.
24607. Lord Th-ing 7 \ I want to ask you a question about Mr. Nepean
ap))roving of the price list ?
Perhaps I was wrong in saying that Mr. Nepean approved of the prices ; I
think as far as I understood, the idea was that ail contractors should be required
to send in their ideas of the pi ices which would be fair, and that an average, or
something which was then considered fair, should be taken out of those prices,
and should be made tiie basis of the prices which would ride the contractors in
paying their hands ; and, as a matter of fact, I believe the prices of nearly all
the contractors varied very little. In one or two instances, in one instance
certainly, I have increased the price, as I found that the article which had to be
made was new and very difficult to manufacture, and therefore I increased the
price for the workmen. I should like to make one or two statements, if I
might.
24608. Chairmun.~\ Yes ?
It was stated, 1 believe, the other day (I did not see it myself, but it was
stated) that I made what were 1 think referred to as objectionable remarks to
one of the hands in my factory, and that 1 abused one of the hands.
(1 1 .j 4 c 4 24609. I do
576
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2%th March 1889.] Lieutenant Colonel N. W. Wallace. \_Cotdinued.
24609. I 60 not remember that being said ?
I wish to state exactly what happened, so that there may be no mistake abou
it. Every man or woman, or child employed has the price list read to them.
I went among the factory people, as I am in the habit of doing, to ask if there
were any complaints of any sort or kind. One man in a very insolent tone of
voice said, “ Yes, we are getting starvation prices.” I asked him whether he
was the spokesman for the room, and he did not reply. I then asked him if
he belonged to the trades union. He said, “ Yes.” 1 said, “ I e.xpect you are
a lawyer, and lawyers do more harm amongst men, from my experience
amongst soldiers, than anybody else.” “Now,” I said, “I think I am not
wrong in stating that you had the prices read to you when you came in, before
you were engaged”; he said, “Yes, I had.” I said, “ Well, yon knew what
prices you had to work for, and I do not think you have any cause for
grumbling at all ; but you are at perfect liberty to leave the factory this after-
noon ; I have five or six men who are anxious to come on, and if you tell my
foreman that you wish to go, you will be paid up to date.” I am glad to say
that 1 have not had another grumble in the factory since, and that man is still
working there. With regard to the wages that the men and women are able to
earn in the factory at an entirely new equipment, and one which is most difficult
to manufacture
24610. That is the Slade valise, I suppose?
The Slade valise ; 1 will not say the majority of it, but one of the pouches is
a new pouch, and the men find great difficulty in manufacturing them ; so
much so that I was informed at Woolwich to-day that many of the contractors
who are supplying it are failing to deliver, and that I and another contractor
are about the only two getting ahead with it at all ; and I was also informed
that the material I was supplying and the workmanship was exceedingly
good, far better than had ever been supplied before; which I think
speaks well for the firm that I obtained the material from, Messrs. Ross
& Company. But, however, good workmen can earn, at fitting valises
at b (1. each, 1/. 3i\ a week; a medium worker can earn 18 s. 6d.,
and a slow worker, that is to say, one wdio has probably just come to
the work and is new' to it, 12 s. 6 d. The seaming and other work is distributed
evenly amongst the workers to equalise wages per week, because it is rather
difficult to pay them for those individual things you keep them all at, and they
would not earn quite so much. The machining is done at Mrs. Featherstone’s,
and turning valises is done at my factory, for which I pay 3 s. a 100.
24611. The machining you do not do ?
I pay so much for the machining.
24612. You do not know what the workers who do it get ?
I pay Mrs. Featherstone ; it is done in the factory, not out of the factory.
The price list for the ecjuipment is as follows : The pouches, 30 rounds, all the
making except the riveting, Hd.; that is what I pay ; 6 d. was agreed upon in
my price list; the braces, ^c., 2d.] for riveting waist belts, 2d.; for
making, ^ d. ; for repairing the coat straps and mess-tin straps, ^ d. each ;
preparing, 4 d. a 100. Now on the equipment one good workman can
make, speaking of what can be done, forty 30-round pouches per week, or about
65 pouches per day at 8 d. a-piece, and earn 1 Z. 6 s. 8 d. I. have got a woman
in the factory who, as a matter of fact, is a better hand at making
these 30-round pouches, which are ' difficult pouches to make, and has
actually earned more than 1 /. 6 s. 3d. a week ; that has beaten any
man in the factory. A fair workman can earn 1 1. 2 s., an average workman, 1 1.
A good man at the 40-round pouch can make 50 per week, or a little over
eight a day, at 4-^ d. a pouch, and earn from 18 s. 9 d. to 1 ?. ; and 25 pairs of
braces a day can be rivet.ted (there is no sew ing in the braces of our equipment) at
4| d. a brace, and a man can earn in that way I 1. 5 s. a week. Now those are
facts, and I can show you my books. Here 1 find that one of my hands on
valises has earned 1 /. / 5. 6 d. in a w'eek ; and those wages are working at the
prices that were agreed upon, and they are taken on the average from the time I
commenced the contract.
2/1613. Would
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
57/
29^/i March 1889.] Lieutenant Colonel Wallace. {^Continued.
24613. Would those prices which you have read out be about the average of
all the hands ?
They would be about the average of all the hands (except the boys ; the boys
are kept at riveting), as soon as they get into the work, and I calculate that it
takes about a week for them to get into it.
24614. You have made no distinction between men and women ?
Men and women work in separate rooms, but work at the same work. The
women do not turn the valises, and one or two things of that sort ; that is a
special thing, and the men have to do it.
24615. But men and women are doing in some respects the same work, and
getting the same pay for it ?
The same pay, and in some instances the women are actually earning more
than the men.
24616. How many do you employ?
Seventy-two in all, ineluding a boy that sweeps. There is one room with
10 men, one room with 14 women, one with four women, one with seven
women, one with seven men, one with two boys, and one with 25 men. I have
two men day-workers, and they get 18 5. a week. Of the two boys, one gets
7 A. a week, and the other gets 6 s. a week. Those are the only people that do
not w'ork by the piece; the others earn as much as tliey can.
24617. What are these two men who are at time-work working on r
I think those two men, as lar as 1 remember, are riveters, or hole-punchers
in the straps ; I really forget whicli it is.
24618. ^VTiy is that paid by time?
They punch the holes in the straps, in the mess-tin straps, and things of that
sort. A man came to me, and asked ms to raise his wages from 16 to 18 s.
for the work he was doing the other day, and I did so, as he was doing the
work so well.
24619. Is your factory established for this equipment only ?
Entirely to do this equipment ; and I should never have gone into it. I will
not say exactly that I regret it, but I do not appreciate very much what I have
got to do, and the worry connected with it ; but Colonel Slade and I were
exceedingly anxious that, as the equipment was a new equipment, the first
1,000 issued to the troops should be of the very best description, and should
be made so that no fault could be found with them ; and for that reason the
first 1,000 was made under Colonel Slade’s sjiecial supervision by Messrs.
Ross & Co., and after that a fresh arrangement was made with me to tender
and to carry on, as 1 have before described.
24620. You are not prepared to do any other kind of work in the factory ?
If any more tenders came out for bufts I might be prepared to take them, in
which case I should probably take larger rooms, if I got the tender, and do
them ; but I am not prepared at the present time to go in for saddlery and
harness, aud things of that sort. 1 have had to reckon everything in the last
month or two,
24621. These various rooms are superintended by a foreman, I suppose ?
Yes.
24622. He is paid, how?
Weekly.
24623. He has no profit out of the business ?
No.
24624. Nothing to do with settling the prices?
No.
24625. All this machinery is fixed in 139, Great Dover-street ?
And in Bland-street, opposite. When I had to take the cutting away from
(11.) 4D Messrs.
5/8
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
2dth March 1889.] Lieutenant Colonel Wallace. \_Continued.
Messrs. Ross I had to take another room, as the place I was in was not large
enough to admit of the cutting being carried on.
24626. How long has the machinery been put up?
Since over six weeks ago. Since I got the order from Mr. Nepean Ross has
not supplied anything.
24627. 1 think you mentioned that one man earned 1 1 . 17 s. 6 d. in a week ?
Yes.
24628. What was he doing?
It was a man named Broadfield ; he was employed on valises ; 1 1 . l/s. 0 \d.
I find it was not 1 /. 17 s. Q d.
24629. Was the work anything exceptional?
No.
24630. Not better than w^as done in the other kinds of work ?
No ; simply doing it the same as all the other men in the room. Broadfield
on another occasion earned 1 /. 1 8 .y. 7
2463 1 . At turning valises ?
At valises and pouches ; that was not necessarily turning valises ; the turning
valises is a special thing.
24632. This was not for turning valises?
I do not think so.
24633. You are not quite sure about that ?
I am not quite; but, in any case, a man close to him, a man named Wells,
was employed on valises, and he earned I 1 . 13.?. Qd.; he was not employed
turning, I know.
24634. Lord Monkswell. '] You say that it is very difficult work ; is it all
difficult work ?
JS'o ; some of it is exceedingly simple.
24635. Then the wages that you pay the men would be to a great extent the
criterion of the wages for ordinary hands ; they are not all good workmen or
good workwomen that you get on ?
Of course I endeavour to get on the best I can ; but most of the men 1 have
employed I have had to take on and actually teach. Of course they have been
able to sew.
24636. They must have been skilful workmen of some sort before you took
them on, I suppose ?
Some of them have not been at all skilful, and have not been able to do any-
thing at all more than ordinary sewing.
24637. What do they earn at ordinary sewing?
The lowest figure I gave you just now was 12 j. 6 -
adhered to their original prices, but then they were the highest of the set. So
that the publication of prices has already done a considerable deal of good.
The men have seen that Government were determined to pay fair prices for
wbat was done, and they naturally have complained when they found that fair
prices were not being paid. It results that according to the latest price list as
revised, the prices of the five contractors for stitching a set are l.s. 3 d., \s.
1 i'. 3| d., 1 .9. 4 d., and Is. b d. a set respectively. Now, the price of a set of
accoutrements is 22 s. 8 d. and upwards, 22 .9. 8 d. to 23 s. ] d. and in the prices
for stitching there is only the difference between 1 3d. and 1 s. 5 d. a set;
and that in a new equipment is arriving very nearly at a conclusion as to what
the real price ought to be.
24681. I forget how long you have been the Director of Contracts ?
Nearly 12 years.
24682. Has there been a large general fail in Government prices in that
time f
1 have some few statistics about accoutrements here which 1 could give
you.
24683. I rather want to know whether, in your opinion, the Government
prices have fallen in proportion to the fall in the value of the material or not,
or more largely ?
I do not think in regard to buff, which is a special article, that there is very
much difference in the value of materials in the last four or six years. A set of
buff accoutrements in the year 1882 cost 21 .9. in May. Then we had the first
Egyptian campaign, and the price got up to 25 a. in November for the same
article. In 1885, in March, the price was 20 s. 10| d., or practically the same
pi ice as in May 1882. Then we had, immediately on the toj) of that, the
Vote of Eleven Millions for the preparations for the war, and the price at once
got up to 24 s. 9 d. in the next month. In 1886, in August, the price was down
again to 18a. 2d.
24684. Lower than it had been before?
Yes, lower than it had been before. Then came the introduction of this
new equipment of Colonel Wallace’s, which was supposed to be rather less
expensive than the old equipment, and I think it is, and for the first thousand
sets in June 1888, we were paying 18 s. 2 d. a set ; but to that must be added
2 s. 65 d. for the frog and sling which were not new and which were not ordered ;
but under the new scale of prices, the price of Wallace’s equipment runs from
25 a. 2^ d, to 25 a. 7hd. a set; so that practically at the present time I am
paying for the Wallace’s equipment more than I have ever paid for any set of
equipment.
24685. Tiien I may take it in general that the Government prices have
remained practically about the same, I mean subject to fluctuations when there
vas a great demand ?
That they have remained the same since 1880 ; 1 think so, with the ex-
ceptiril 1889.] Mr. Uttley. {Continued.
24704. Are they federated with you ; with the cutlers ?
Yes, they are connected with us in a certain way.
24705. Are these all workmen’s associations ?
Yes.
24706. Does sub-contracting exist in any of those trades you represent f
Yes.
24707. In which of them ?
Chiefly in what we term the cutlery trades, that is, the making of
knives.
24708. Was there not a committee appointed to inquire into how far sweating
existed in these trades at Sheffield ?
We appointed a small local committee in connection with the council. That
was at the request of Mr. Oram, the inspector who was down in Sheffield a month
or six weeks ago ; and v/e presented a report wdiich I suppose will have been
laid before your Lordships.
24709. You were on that committee r
Yes.
24710. Have you formed any definition of what you consider sweating
to be ?
The general definition, as we understand it, is in the case of a man who takes
out work as a sub-contractor pure and simple, and employs cheap labour to
execute the work; but we found that the conditions varied from that somewhat
in Sheffield. For instance, there are what are called little masters; there are
also factors, or merchants as they style themselves. Those factors or merchants
in many instances do not employ workmen direct, but they obtain orders and
give them out to the little master, who is himself a workman. This workman
obtains assistance in the execution of the orders ; he also rents a room and steam
power, that is in the town. Some proportion of the work is executed by ma-
chinery, that is grinding, polishing and boring, and those things are of course
turned by steam power. He pays for the power. He also pays a certain
amount of remuneration to those working under him.
24711. How would you style him ; what would you call him ?
I should call him a sweater in a sense ; but still he works alongside the work-
men or women or young people who are employed by him.
24712. And what does he call himself?
He styles himself a little master. The term is little mester ; that is the
technical term with us in Sheffield.
24713. Let me understand; do they work in shops of their own or do they
work in factories ?
Generally the rooms that they work in are let to them by persons who own
a very large building fitted with steam power. It is no uncommon thing to
find a dozen different people carrying on as many branches of trade, all under
one building.
24714. In a case like that, to whom would the building belong, to a larger
master, or to a man not engaged in the trade at all ?
In many instances it belongs to a larger master, who finds it to his own
advantage, in addition to carrying on his own business, in which he manu-
factures certain classes of goods, to have additional room and to let it off to these
people who pay as a rule what we consider a very high rate of rent. Of course
that is as applying to the town workmen.
24715. Then these little masters emplov workmen ?
Yes.
24716. And do they pay them by the time or by the piece ?
In many instances they will pay them by the piece ; only of course at such a
reduced rate of wages that they can earn very little.
(f !•) 4^3 ^4717* You
590
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
4M April 1889.]
Mr. Uttley.
[ Continued.
24717. You spoke cf merchants just now; what do you mean by
merchants ?
A factor or small merchant is a man who will either go direct into the
market or will take orders from a larger merchant for certain classes
of goods, and of course give them out to the small masters to execute
for him. And a plan which is adopted very largely, and which has had a
great deal to do with the very low condition of the workers is this.
The little master is a man that has no capital, and he is de])enclent
upon what he receives weekly. He will go to the office of the small
merchant or factor, and apply for work ; he is informed that in consequence of
no orders being on hand there is no work for him ; in all probability he tries
several places, and finds that they all tell him the same ; and he returns to the
original place, and he is informed that he can have a little work which will he
counted as stock work, if he will do it at a further reduction. Of course he does
not like it, knowing that he can make so very little out of the work at the very
best of prices ; but in consequence of having no capital he is compelled even-
tually to accede to the request, or the demand rather, of the small factor. As a
rule, the goods that are produced in that way enter into competition with fiims
of fair standing, and thus the market is brought down ; the prices are reduced
in the market to such an extent that it is exceedingly difficult for a profit to be
made. I may say that many of these persons who set up as factors are as a rule
those that have had some experience in the larger warehouses, and under the
system of apprenticeship or service which exists, they very often find themselves,
after they liave acquired a certain amount of knowledge, compelled to get
along as best they can, as the larger firms do not require their services
possibly after they get up to 21 or 22 years of age. That is one outcome of
the system that prevails in factors’ warehouses of taking a large numbei’ of
young people in, and supplanting them by others at a cheap rate when they
get to such an age that they require, better wages.
247 iS. You have spoken of firms of fair standing; you mean the large
manufacturers ?
Yes.
24719. In their case, how is the work carried on?
As regards prices or as regards tlie manner of working, do you mean r
24720. The manner of working?
W e have a large number of outworkers in the Sheffield trades. Take my
own trade, for instance.
24721. What do you mean by an outworker ?
I mean a man who goes to the warehouse, and obtains his work and takes it
home, or to a small shop or a room that he rents, p.iying the rent and other
expenses connected with it, executes the work there, and then returns it back
to the warehouse.
24722. Now, take one of these large manufacturers, a firm of fair standing ;
is a good deal of the work done on their own premises ?
That is a matter that varies considerably with the nature of the busi-
ness. Some businesses, of course, are compelled to have the great bulk of
the work done ui)on the premises, in consequence of the plant being rather
intricate, and Aarious matters of that kind; but in a great number of the old
staple trades of Sheffield, such as the file and the knife trades, the
workmen are employed off the premises, paying their own rent and find-
ing their own tools and material, and returning the work to the ware-
houses.
24723 Those you call outworkers r
We call them outworkers.
24724. Then besides that there are certain factors, or small merchants, who
manufacture nothing themselves, as I understand you ?
Y’es. You will notice (I wish to make myself clear) that the small factor in
the
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
591
\th April 1889.] Mr. Uttley. [^Continued.
tlie first instance is n man who possibly does not practically understand the
work ; he is not a workman, but he understands something of it from the
routine of his service in some factor’s warehouse. But then comes in the
little master who does understand the work, and himself works, but employs
others to assist him, out of whom he makes a profit; and in that way they
supply the goods to the smaller factor ; and those are the goods which, as
I have stated, enter into competition with the larger manufacturers, and have a
tendency not only to reduce very materially the wap-es but to lower the
quality.
24725. Lord Sandhurst.^ The little master is a sweater, in fact r
He is a sweater in that case.
24726. Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.^ Are an outworker and a little master the
same thing ?
Yes, in that case.
24727. Chairman^ But I understood you to say that the little masters work
a number of them on the same premises, paying so much for their shop room,
and power, and so on ?
Yes.
24728. But that the outu orker is a man who takes the work from the ware-
house to his own place
Both are outworkers; that is, they do not work in any large firms
24729. But tlie outworker that you have spoken of, as I understand, works in
his ov\n place, his own house, his own shop ?
Yes, in premises that he rents ; but the work does not pass through the hands
of what we term a little master, but goes direct to the larger warehouses. It
is rather complicated I am aware for persons that are not accustomed to it.
247‘^?o. Has this system of division always existed in these trades in
Sheffield ?
To a greater or lesser extent it has ; it has always been a question that has
caused considerable difficulty.
24731. Just take these liltle masters ; do you know what they have to pay
themselves, in the way of rent and power, and machinery, and so on ?
So far as they are concerned, it depends somewhat upon the nature of the
trade.
24732. Supposing that we take some particular trade, and then you will tell
us as far as that is concerned ; take anything you like ?
Say a cutler, a knife-maker ; he would have to pay for power according
to the number of h inds that he employed ; of course if he employed, say four
or five hands, the room and [)Ower would come in rather cheap.
24733. How many do they generally employ ?
It varies.
25734. What do you call the average, three or four ?
Taking it per man, as near as I can say, he would have to pay about 4 s. for
the accommodation ; supposing he had a man, and a boy, or woman or two,
he would have to pay about 4 s. to 6 s. extra.
24735. And that would include everything ?
No, it would not inclutle everything ; he would have also extras for the
material that he uses.
24736. Does he get the material from the person he is executing the order
for, or does he buy it himself?
In some cases from the person whom he is executing the order for ; in others
he would buy it himself. 1 siiouhl be prepared to speak definitely in reference
to the cost, \\ hen we come to the matter of the out- workers who work out in
(11.) 4 E 4 the
592
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
^th April Mr. Uttley. ^Continued.
the country. I do not profess this cost of the room to be a speciality of
mine.
24737. Do not tell me about it if you do not know ?
But I think tliat your Lordships will have a witness or two possibly who can
speak to that ; in fact, tliere is a workman in the room now.
24738. I may take it that you cannot give us any accurate information as to
the expenses of these little masters ; you are not quite sure about it ?
I prefer not to give that, as I believe that others will give the matter more
correctly.
24739. Can you give us any information as to what they pay the people who
are working for them, these knife-makers ?
We inquired into a number of cases affecting men who make knives out of
the town, who make a cheap class of knives for certain factors, and I have a
number of particulars of those cases.
24740. The outworkers ?
Yes, these are a second class of outworkers.
24741. Then we will leave the little masters altogether. Will you tell us
what you like about the outworkers ?
In the knife-making trade, what are commonly called the spring knife cutlers,
we found the following condition of things. We found that a man had
to make 56 dozens of knives, 14 to the dozen (the extra two have been put on
since 18 / 5 ), and he received the sum of 5 s. 3 d. per gross of 14 dozen, for
putting these knives together, between himself and a boy ; he was considered
to be one of the quickest workmen, and the son was said to be one of the quickest
lads in the trade ; the son was 14 years of age ; and they worked on the average
16 hours per day.
24742. Do you mean 16 hours without making any deductions for meal
times ; do you mean that they were at work for 16 hours per day ?
At work for 16 hours per day. They could earn, by working those long
hours, 21 per week.
24743, The two of them ?
The two of them. These men had to fetch and carry the work a distance of
some three miles each way. Out of that sum they had to pay 5 d. for wire (used
to fasten the scale and the handle together), 9 d. for files; his light and coals
he put down at 6 d. ; and the cost of shop rent (he would require two sides for
himself and boy), would be 6 d. per side, that is 1 s.
24744. These are all per week ?
Those are per w'eek, and have to be deducted from the sum earned.
24745. How much does that leave him nett ?
Eighteen shillings and fourpence.
24746. In this case what were the materials supplied to the outworker ?
The blades, the scales, the bone scales and iron scales, and the springs.
24747. ^^ct everything except the rivets ?
Everything except the rivets and the files.
24748. The files are the tools ?
Yes.
24749. Where would this work be going to ; one of these large ware-
houses ?
One of the large warehouses.
24750. You have given us a case in this knife trade where a man was
working with his son 14 years of age, working 16 hours a day; do you mean
every day of the week ?
^ Of
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
593
April 1889.] Mr. Uttley. {^Continued.
Of course be would have Saturday ; Saturday he could not do as much work
as that, and other time lost in carrying material during the week.
24751- How many hours a week would you say ?
He would work fully 70 hours.
24752. Then we have this man and the son of 14 working 70 hours a week,
and making nett I85, 4 ?
Yes.
24753. Do you consider that to be a fair example of wliat an outworker can
earn in this trade ?
It was given as a fair example of what an outworker amongst the Wadsley
cutlers would be able to earn.
24754. That is the case of a man working with his own son ; do you know
what he would have to pay if he had somebody working with him ; what would
he pay his son r
The son, of course, being 14 years of age would live with him; they all live
together; so that you could not take that into account.
24755. Is it not often the case that these outworkeis employ labour outside
of their own families?
Not generally. I have known cases where some of them, in the summer
time, have worked at other classes of labour ; some have worked in the quarries;
and in the winter time or in the evenings they have rendered assistance ; but
the remuneration is of such a poor character that there is very little induce-
ment for people to do that.
24756. Speaking generally, the outworker does all the work himself with the
assistance of members of Ids own family; is that so?
That is so, in these cases where the worker is not a little master. These
men that I refer to now are not little masters. I should like to mention also,
with your permission, one or two other instances in the knife trade.
24757. Yes?
One man that I visited worked in his own house ; he was an elderly man
certainly, but he was still very vigorous, and he assured me that he had not
earned, although he worked all the hours that he possibly could, save and
except those that were used in going to the town to fetch the work, 10 s. in any
single week this year, his wages had varied from 8 s. to under 10 5., he liad not
earned 10 5.
24758. Was he working alone ?
He was working alone, and I saw the work ; ho had a large quantity of work.
The man in going to the town and fetching the work had to carry a very heavy
load. He stated, and I verified it by inquiries, that he frequently, as soon as
12 o’clock had struck on the Sunday night, resumed work, and worked all
night, in order to get more goods ready for the wareliouse, that he might draw
a little money in the interval, as the money that he drew the latter part of the
week w^as expended, and they could not possibly get along unless he had a
further draw, say on the Tuesday or Wednesday, and he never thought of
leaving off work under ordinary circumstances until 11 o’clock at night. Cer-
tainly the place was in a very poor condition, and the man assured me that he
could only obtain, as one could quite understand, the very coarsest fare. I made
inquiries, and men that knew him well said that lie was an exceptionally steady
man, and that that had been his condition for a very long time ; it was through
no fault of his own, but of the merchants and parties whom he worked for, who
hud ground him down in price until he could scarcely exist.
24759. When do they fetch the work out and take the work back ?
Generally they go in on the Saturday.
24760. Do you mean that they take the materials out on Saturday ?
They take the finished work into the warehouse, finished so far as they are
concerned, on the Saturday, and then if they are fortunate in having the
(11.) ’ 4 F material
594
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
^th April 1889.] Mr. Uttley. \ Continued.
material to hand, they then get a further stock of material and take it back,
and bring it in when it is clone. In some cases they have got to wait for the
material, which still further delays them, from other men, men that make the
scales and prepare the springs, and tliose tilings.
24761. Where would these blades and scales and springs be made ?
They would be made in town.
24762. I mean, would they he made in the tvarehouse or factory where this
man you describe goes to get the work ?
In some instances. In most cases there are men who make it their special
business to manufacture these scales and springs and supply them to the ware-
house direct ; in some cases they are made by the manufacturers but not
generally. The class of people that these men work for are principally
merchants.
24763. Do you mean by merchants men who do not manufacture them-
selves ?
Yes, or they might manufacture some speciality, but still not manufacture
these particular articles ; they are merchants and manufacturers,
24764, As far as these articles are concerned, 1 understand that the case is
this, that the persons who make the blades and scales, and springs and so
on, take them into a warehouse to a merchant, and then the man who files them
and grinds them, whom you have described, fetches them from that warehouse
to hs own place, and takes them back again to the warehouse ?
Yes.
24765. Then have they got to go through any further process after that?
The class of knives I have been referring to that this old man was making
24766. Would he finish them complete f
To a certain extent, I will explain. I have here a knife {exhibiting a hiife).
This w'as one of the class tliat this elderly man that I spoke to who never earned
10 a week, put together.
24767. What do you call that knife ?
That is a jack ; a very common class. That is vhat we call a metal blade,
but it is not badly put together; the man, the cutler there, has rivetted those
scales on pretty securely ; the putter together, the man that did not earn 10
has got to soften the bone scales, so that lie can work them readily ; he has
also got to file into shape those iron scales underneath, and he has to set the
knife in, bore all the holes, and drive the wire through and rivet it.
24768. What will become of that knife ?
That knife is not in a finished state ; it is only finished so far as the putting
together or setting is concerned ; afterwards the grinder lakes it, and he grinds
up the blade and puts a kind of rough polish on and gives it something like the
apjiearance of a knife. Of course alter that metal blade is ground, an inexperi-
enced person could not tell whether it was metal or steel, but if that blade
were made of steel it would be very much more serviceable. If they were to
attempt to cut anything very hard the certainties are the knife would snap.
24760. How do you describe the man who does this part of the work?
A spring knife cutlei' or setter-in ; the setting-in is the putting together; it
is a technical term.
24770. One man, I suppose, would make the blade originally?
Those are all cast by moulders.
24771. But one man would make the blade no matter how they are
made ?
Yes, one man would make the blade.
24772. "Would
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
595
Ath J'pril 1889 .] Mr. Uttley. [^Continued.
24772. Would the scales be made by another set of workmen?
Another set of workmen wouhl shape the scales out of the rough bone.
24773. And about the sjirings?
Another set of men would fly out tlie springs.
24774. Then these various workmen would bring- these various parts of the
knife to the warehouse, and then the setter-in would come and get them and
bring back the knite to the warehouse in this condition ?
\es.
24775. Then it has to go to the grinder ?
Yes.
24776. Does he come and fetch it ?
Yes.
24777. He comes and fetches it and grinds it?
Yes.
24778. And he brings it back to the warehouse ?
Yes.
24779. I® finished then, or is there anything else to be done
to it ?
Simply the wrapping up, which is done by a girl or woman in the
warehouse.
24780. And these various workmen who make these various parts, as I
imderstand you, live a considerable distance apart ?
So far as the cutler, the man who has put that knife into shape, brought it
up to the point at which you see it now is concerned, he will live at a con-
siderable distance, and the others may reside very near, very often in the town,
generally in the town.
24781. Does it happen at all that a knife of this qualit}’' is made complete
from beginning to end in the same factory, under one roof?
Yes ; you of course mean the casting of the blade ?
24782. And the whole of it ?
As a rule the cutlery casters are a special trade to themselves ; but the
other parts might be made, and are made very often in the same place.
24783. I think you were going to give us some other instance ?
I was about to give another instance, which shows the loss of time that the
men are subjected to, although they work at such low rates, and also the fact
that they have certain conditions imposed upon them wliich we consider to be
exceedingly unfair, considering the very miserable rate of wages that they
receive, and that was this ; In making knives, rather a better class than that
before you, the man who made them clearly showed to me that he was only able
to earn, by working very long hours, fully 00 hours per week, 3 s. per day.
Now, he was compelled to lose sometimes on the Saturday a considerable
amount of time. He had to be in the warehouse witi) his work by 10 o’clock
in the morning, so that he was only able, he said, to earn about 1 s. on the
Saturday. Tliat brought him to about 16 s. per week. Out of this he had
to find working material, and was under expense at a similar rate to the one
that I have mentioned previously, with this difference, that the wire for the
putting together of the knives was supplied by the firm that he worked for, for
which they charged him 4 ^ d. for a given quantity, which he could purchase,
were he allowed to purchase it himself, lor 2 d. That made a further
reduetion in his wages. Of course, he considered it to be a very great hard-
ship. I mention this to show the two points, that is, that these men, in
consequence of having to be at the warehouses early in the morning, and losing
considerable time, are at a disadvantage, and also to show the imposition, as I
term it, of wire at 4 | d., which might he a better quality or it might not, but
the wire at 2d. for the same quantity would have answered just the same
purpose.
(11.) * 4 F 2
24784. 1 understand
596
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Uh April 1889.] Mr. Uttley. IContinned.
247S4. I understand that in saying that, you are repeating what this man
told you ?
Yes ; i have reason to believe it.
247S5. You do not know, of your own knowledge, whether the wire supplied
by the warehouse was not of better quality ?
I should assume, probably, it might be of rather better quality ; but in the
conversation the man stated that the twopenny wire vas of a sufficiently good
quality to answer the purpose fur which it was required.
24786- It is quite possible that the man might think so himself, Imt tliat the
master of the warehouse he was working for might have a different opinion on
that point ?
It is possible that the master of the warehouse might have had a profit out of
the wire which he did not like to sacrifice.
24787. But he might think that it required a better class of wore than the
workman was inclined to put in ?
Possibly.
24788. Before you go on to any other instances, as regards these men, you
spoke of their paying so much for shop-rent ; do they not work in their owm
dwelling-houses ?
In some instances, but there are a good few shops that have been in existence
in the district for perhaps a couple of hundred years ; it is an old industry.
And of course if they work in their own Imuses they are not subject to the
charge of 6 d. per side; but tiien we must i-emember that the dwelling- houses
are of necessity very small ; and if a man has got a family similar to what the
man had that 1 referred to who worked along with his son, a wife and four
cliildren, you would see that it was utterly impossible for the ordinary domestic,
duties to be carried on, and the man working along with his son in the house,
because they require a considerable amount of room for their sides and work.
24789. As a matter of fact, is it generally the rule for these setters-in to
work in their own dwelling-houses, or to work in shops at a side ?
The rule will be the shop, the exception will be the house.
24790. I sup[)ose as regards their expenses it would be as broad as it is long;
if they worked in their own house they would have to pay more rent for having
the house fitted with the shop ?
The house would have to be naturally larger ; so that 1 do not see that it
would make any difference.
24791. In this case you mentioned of the man that paid 1 s. for shop-rent, of
course that was in addition to his house-rent ?
In addition to his house-rent.
24792. In these cases you mentioned there is no middleman at all?
No middleman ; the sweater is the merchant.
24793. Are there any other instances in that trade which you would like to
give the Committee ?
This one that I am about to give, of course, refers more to a little master ; it
is a case that we inquired into.
24794. We had better not go into that just now ; I should like to go on with
these outworkers, and finish them first. Take another branch of tlie trade if you
like ?
Take now a case of a table-blade grinder. I think that has not been referred
to specially in any report that was sent, because it is a matter I have looked up
since the report was sent in. In the case that I have before me, and that I
have verified, there was a man who was a table-blade grinder; that is, he uses a
stone which is turned by steam power, and he, of necessity, Avorks in some large
wheel
24795- An
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
597
A^tli April 1889 .]
Mr. Uttley.
[ Continued.
24795. An outworker?
He is an outworker so far as this, tljat he goes to a certain factory or ware-
house, and takes the work, using his own material, and paying his rent him-
self ; so that he would be considered an outworker in the exact sense of the
term; he did not work except directly from the particular, warehouse I am
about to refer to, so that he would be in the same category as the men I have
mentioned.
24796. You would not call him a little master?
No.
24797. Will you proceed to tell us about him r
He vvas rather short of work, and he was informed that a certain man would
he prepared to find him employment. This man can execute the best work ; he
waited upon the man, wlio was a merchant and small manufacturer; he was
ofi'ered work for which he was paid 1 s. per dozen.
24798. Fourteen to the dozen, in this also ?
I do not think that he would do fourteen ; I think they do twelve in that
trade. It appears that this manufacturer or merchant had got the order from
some other place, so that he comes really himself under the head of a sweater.
The same class of work as he offered this man, and which the man took and
performed for 1 s. per dozen, was being paid to their own workmen at the rate
of 1 5 . 6 d. per dozen by the \ eiy parties to whom this factor or small manu-
facturer supplied the goods. Practically they were ground at 1 s. per dozen
by this man, and it was exacted from him that he should execute the work in a
workmanlike manner, d'hey were eventually sent to the same firm, who were
paying their own men, who wmrked directly for tliem, 1 6 (/. He did a quan-
tity of work, and after he had executed it, and of course they were satisfied with
it, they still w’anted to further reduee him down to 9 d. ; that was just half what
the manufacturers from whom the orders came direct, were paying to their men.
The result w'as that he objected to do it ; but they got some other man to do the
work ; so that there was actually half the amount that should have been paid for
this work deducted from the workman’s wages in that case. That w’as an
instance that I found since the report has been sent in, in connection with table
blade grinding. He is a most respectable man.
24799. You have mentioned once or twice a report that your committee made,
for Mr. Oram, I think ?
Yes.
24800. That report is not before this Committee; therefore you must not
assume that the Members of the (Jommittee are aware of what is in the report,
it is not in evidence before the Committee; so that anything that is in that
report that you want to mention you must please mention r
I understand the position better now. I had an impression that the report was
before the Committee, and that I should probably be Ci[uestioned on those jjoints.
24801. If there is anything in the report that you wish to say to the Com-
mittee, will you say it yourself?
Then this will take its place in my evidence as though it had appeared in the
report.
24S02. Now as to these table-knife grinders, what can they earn ?
Under conditions like those, after they have paid their wheel-rent and other
expenses, they certainly would not get more than 15 or 16 s.
24803. Do you know what their wheel-rent and other expenses would be?
About 5 5 . to 7 a week for wheel-rent ; and then there would be e.xpenses
for emery and different things for dressing up.
24804. Then what you say in this case you object to is that whereas the
large manufacturers paid their own men at the rate of 1 s. 6 d. per dozen, they
put out some of their work to a smaller manufacturer who only paid 1 s. ?
Yes ; extorting the difference out of the workman. We find that in some
cases manufaeturers have, in order to reduce wages, informed their own work-
men that there was no orders, and consequently no work, but at the same time
their orders were being executed in the way 1 have indicated.
(11.) 4P3
24805. And
598
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
m April 1889.] Mr. Uttley. iContinued.
24805. And eventually got the work done by somebody for 9 d. ?
Yes. The great mischief about that is, not only the reduction in the prices
paid, but also a tendency to deteriorate the quality of the work so very seriously.
If men get down to 9 d. certainly they cannot be expected to do the work as
well as they would if they were receiving- 1 5. 6 t/. There is a temptation when
work is obtained at such cheap rates to send the work out, and that does very
serious damage to the reputation of the town.
24806. “Send the work out”?
Send the work out mixed up with better goods, and it does very great
damage to the reputation of the town.
24807. You say there is a tendency to send the work out ; will you explain
what you mean ?
To the customers, I mean. Suppose you have a class of goods you pay
1 6 d. for, and the same class executed at 9 i/. ; you do not get the work
done quite as well at the low’er |)rice, and there is a tendency to mix them up.
24808. Mix up the worse with the better?
YYs. It deteiiorates all round the standard of quality.
24809. Then I will ask you some questions about that later. Now w^e will
go on to outworkers in any other branch of the trade, if you like?
We found also in reference to the table knife halting that a great number of
these men were w orking, not getting more than 15 s. a week after they had paid
• the expenses.
24810. As to other bl anches besides knives, does the same kind of thing exist
in file-cutting, or in any thing else ?
Yes, in file-cutting. That, of course, is a branch of industry that possibly
more than other branch is executed outside the large works in Slieffield.
It is one of the peculiarities of the town that you shall be able to go down almost
any courtyard, or passage, or gai den, and you w ill find a little shop erected with
perhaps one or two men, and some boys and women cutting files. Of course
they cut files by hand. There are files cut by machinery, and those of course
are cut in firms inside the works ; they require steam power, and they cannot
execute them outside as these hand-cutters can. I have found sweating to exist
in that branch of trade. I think it may be designated sweating proper,
inasmuch as there are a number of men who, themselves being practical work-
men, go to the large manufacturers and obtain orders for files. In some cases
they agree to forge them, and cut them, and finish them throughout, but in
other cases just simply take them out to cut. They have given them out to
workmen who have had discounts taken from them as high, I have found they
have taken it, as 4 d. to the shilling. It is a very common thing to take a 20 per
cent, or a 25 per cent, discount from these workmen. Of course the workmen
in that branch of industry have to find everything that is needed. They find
their own chisels, which are rather expensive tools ; they repair their own tools,
find oil and candles, and everything of that kind ; and in many instances they
are not able to earn, after those deductions are made, by working very long
hours, above 15 5. or 16 . 9 . In some cases I have found them even less; it
depends somewhat upon the class of work that they execute. There are some
classes of work that are rather better paid than others, and it also depends
somewhat upon the manner in which they allow them to execute the w'ork.
2481 1 . What are these discounts for ?
I suppose the}^ are to recoup the manufacturer.
24812. I do not understand how they are taken off; are they taken off for
nothing, merely such and such a price with so much off for discount ?
Off a certain standard list of prices. The standard price in 1883 was con-
sidered to be the full list which w’as a list arrived at between the employers and
the workmen ; and after 1883 there was a reduction of 10 per cent. That is
considered to-day to be the standard price, 10 per cent.; but these men who
sweat the workmen take off 15 , 20, and 25 per cent., and in some instances I
have found it even more.
24813. What
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
599
Atli April 1889.] Mr. Uttley. [Continued.
24813. What do you mean by “ these men who sweat the workmen ” ?
The men that I referred to just now, who being workmen themselves went to
the larger employers, and took orders from them to execute.
24814. They execute those where ; in their own shops ?
They have a small firm, but generally they give the w'ork out.
24815. They put it out again ?
They put it out again.
24816. Then they act as middlemen ?
Yes.
24817. And while in some cases they work themselves, in some cases they do
not?
Yes. The work that they do after they adopt a course of that kind is princi-
pally the warehouse work, looking after the orders and getting them up and
testing them, and in some cases hardening, which is considered to be the best
branch of the trade.
2.d8i8. Then they put the work out to others, and they pay the others
the trade price with a discount of whatever it may be, 15, 20, or 25 per
cent. ?
Yes.
24819. In what condition does the file come to the file cutter ?
In what we call the ground state; that is, first of all it is forged out of the
steel ; then it is sent to the grinder ; the grinder removes the inequalities from
the surface, and prepares it to receive the cutting edges or teeth, which are
produced by the cliisel of the cutter ; the principal part of the tile is produced
by the cutter, who executes it with a chisel carefully prepared. Then, of course,
he returns it back to the warehouse in the cut state, and afterwards it is
hardened by immersion in water specially prepared.
24820. Do these filers generally do the work, the man himself with their
family, or do they employ hired labour^
You refer to the woi kmen who really executes the work ?
24821. Yes ?
He will have members of his own family in most cases ; iji some cases he
may have another boy, an apprentice; but generally speaking if he is working
for those middlemen he is in this position, that very few people care to
work for him, the price is so low. There is one disadvantage that the workmen
labour under, and which has a tendency (it might be of some service to the
Committee in forming their judgmeiit that 1 should mention this) to encourage
sweating. Many of the larger firms make up their books for the week on tiie
Friday. In many instances they do not give work out until the Monday morn-
ing, so that the men find themselves with an amount of leisure time at the
latter end of the week, which is very valuable ; and in many instances these
men will go the smaller places, and are prepared to take work at a clieaper rate
in consequence of the fact that they cannot reckon for the work done on the
Friday afternoon or Friday evening and the Saturday until the week
following, even where work is given out on the Friday.
24822. They do not get paid for it until the week following ?
No ; and that is a weakness in the management. If the management of the
larger firms was altered in this respect it certainly would have a tendency to
prevent a great deal of these middlemen, and it would have a tendency to keep
the workmen together better. The good workman, in some instances, will go
and work cheaper at a smaller place for a sweater in consequence of the
difficulty he is placed in. As a rule there is a great deal of waiting by the
w orkmen. They will go to the warehouse and [)robably not find the work ground
ready ; they will then have to go the wheel and wait possibly an hour or two,
and that all wastes a lot of time. They certainl}'^ do a great deal of work in
that way, lose a lot of time, and do a deal of work in carrying, fetching, and
(11.) 4F4 waiting,
600
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
4^/t yJ/jrz’/ 1889.] Mr. Uttley. \_Contiime.d.
waiting, for which there is no remuneration whatever ; they are simply paid on
the results, that is, so much per dozen.
24823. As to these little masters, you have not anything you wish to say
about them ?
There is a matter that we inquired into in regard to little masteis, in the
spring knife trade, where there were six men making a common class of knife,
and they were working the Ibllowing hours, these men of course weie working
conjointly: They commence at nine on the Monday, cease at six ; Tuesday at
eight, and cease at nine ; Wednesday at six, and cease at ten; Thursday and
Friday the same ; Saturday w orking from six to two o’clock, a total of / B hours.
Deduct for meals eight hours which left the nett hours of work / O. The
average earnings were 15 ^. each, and that of course is utider 2| t/. per hour.
That was a case in the town.
24S24. In a case of that kind what work would the master do himself-
He would be assisting at this class of work.
24825. Have yon any idea what he made ?
He would not make much more than the men.
24826. No women or children are employed by these little masters, I
suppose -
In some cases they hax'e women and also young persons. Of course the
Factory Act looks pretty sharply after those cases of young women and
children, and I must say that say that in Sheffield we are [)retry well served,
we are looked fairly well after.
24827. As to the outworkers, women and children, do they come under the
Factory Act ?
If they work in dwelling-houses, of course they will not; they can evade the
Factory Act b\'^ working in houses.
24828. But as a rule they do not work in houses ?
In many cases in the file trade they work in houses.
24829. In that case there would be no lestriction of the hours ?
No restriction. It is necessary that in that direction there should be some-
thing done.
24830. Have you anything to say about the sanitary condition of these shops
where the outworkers work ?
In many instances the sanitary conditions are very imperfect.
24831. They are bad r
Bad. Alany of them are old shops that have been standing for a great
number of years, and generall}^ speaking they are in a dilapidated condition,
and perhaps there are five or six men and boys woikiiig in a very small shop,
i he general health of the trade in the file-cutting trade is bad.
24832. But that is owing to the nature of the trade ?
Yes. to a large extent owing to the nature of the trade ; hut still the sanitary
conditions have something to do with it. This is proved to my mind from the
fact that the men w ho work outside in the country, and who are mixing up in
the fresh air, are healthier and longer lived than the men in the town. That,
of course, is the natural result of getting more fresh air ; but, generally speak-
ing, the health of the tiade is bar). I was getting out a lot of figure-i recently;
we ivere thinking of re-modelling some of the rules with a view to regulating
the funeral benefits, and I found that the average for some years ran up as
high as 36 and 38 per cent. Of course, that is a very high death-rate. It has
always been that height, more or less, because of the absorbing of the lead that
is used, through the fingers, and also the attitude the men work in. They lean
over the chest very much, and the lead absorbed produces a very poor condition of
the blood, a kind of blood poisoning, and in many instances it affects the muscles
of the wrist, so that after working for some years at the trade we have
what is called the drooping ivrist ; they have no power to lift the hammer. That
is
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
601
April 1889 .]
Mr. Uttley
\_CunLiuue(l.
is contributed to very largely by the poor condition of the blood, and also by
the jarring of the file ; there is a slight jar at every stroke.
24833. Is the health of the trade better or worse than it used to be ?
I do not know that there is very much difference, inasmuch as the bulk of
tbe shops are the same identical shops that men worked in possibly 100 years ago.
24834. Is there any system of apprenticeship in the trade ?
Yes ; in the file trade it is customary for a man to take an apprentice, and
in many instances his own son or sons ; but we have no restriction as to the
apprentices; that is, we do not say to a man, “You shall not take an
apprentice; ” there is nothing of that, but the apprentices are placed under tlic
care of the workman ; and of course if he is an outworker, and has the boy
entirely to himself, he receives very careful attention, and generally comes out
a pretty proficient workman ; but in many cases in the firms where the boys are
taken apprentice by managers and manufacturers they are not placed in all
cases (in some cases they are) under the special care for any length of time of
a practical workman, but are left to pick up the trade pretty much as they
choose. Still on the whole in our trade the men are pretty good in the matter
of giving a boy instruction. If the boy has anything reasonable in him, and is
a pretty decent boy, he will receive [)retty careful attention without there being
any special pay for it ; but in many trades there certainly is a great weakness
in that direction of the instruction of apprentices. In some of the trades, such
as the metal trade and other trades, many boys are induced to enter into the
trades with the idea that when they attain their majority they will be able to
earn a lai'ge amount of wages; and unfortunately for them there is not that
care bestowed upon them when they are placed in the works that there ought
to be, and they turn out as a rule very inefficient workmen. There is no one
specially charged with their instruction. In many instances they get a little
instruction from perhaps a young man that has got up to 18 or 19 years of age,
and that is about all that they receive.
24835. Are they taught the whole of the trade, or only some portion
In many cases where the indentures have specified that they should be
instructed in all the particulars of the trade, youths have found themselves at
the end of the term of appi enticeship knowing very little about the whole of
business. Perhaps they have been limited to a particular class of work, in
consequence of its paying the person who has had a direct interest in them,
better to keep them at this class of work. For instance, if you have a boy kept
continually on a certain class of work, he becomes fairly proficient in that
particular class of work, and he can earn fair wages. One of the customs is to
say to this boy, “ Now you must earn so much, out of which you will receive a
certain amount,” perhaps a third or a fourth, as the case may be. This amount
is intended for his board ; that is all that lie gets ; he gets a certain propor-
tion, perhaps a third ; and, of course, it is to the boy’s interest, and is also to
the employer’s inteiest, that this boy should have as much of this particular
class of work as they can possibly give him, so that he may earn more money.
But then that tells against the proficiency of the youth as a workman. He
finds out aftei' he is 21 that he is only able to execute certain work which boys
like himself can do. The result is that he is very often driven out to seek some
other sphere of labour, or compete on very low terms with his fellows; in any
case reducing the quality of the article.
24836. You mean he is taught some particular branch, and is not cajjable of
working at anything else ?
That is so. Of course there is a good profit made out of him for the time
being by the persons who have him under their charge.
24837. Were these trades always as much divided as they are now ; was the
labour, 1 mean, so much divided as it is now ?
Not always. In some branches, for instance the table knife trade, and other
branches of the cutlery trade, there is more subdivision of labour than there
formerly used to be, considerably more.
of it ?
( 11 .)
4 G
24838 More
602
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
^th April 1889.] Mr. Uttley. \_Continued.
24838. More unskilled labour r
Yes; men that you would term a kind of semi-skilled labourer, who can just
execute certain portions, but not the whole.
24839. Do you suppose than this subdivision of labour has caused the semi-
skilled labourer, or has the semi-skilled labour brought about the subdivision of
labour r
The subdivision has produced that.
24840. Produced the semi-skilled labour ?
Yes. It was considered, within my experience, to be a reflection upon a work-
man, if he could not take liold of an article and finish it throughout in many
branches of trade, where to-day they do not think of it. Some of the old
mannfaciui ers, the lathers of the present race, often prided themselves that they
could go into the shojj and go turough the whole process of producing every
portion of an article themselves, put it together, and turn it out complete ; but
that kind of thing to a large extent has passed away.
24841. Is li achinery much more used now than formerly ?
Yes, much more.
24842. ^Vhat has been the eff‘» ct of that r
The effect of the introduction of machinery has invariably been to reduce
wages very largely.
28443. How do you account for that?
By the fact that niachinery of couise can produce certain articles very much
more rapidly than they could be produced by band, and it also offers facilities
lor employing what we might term purely unskilled labour. It has had this
tendency too, to enable in many instances a very inferior class of goods to be
got up and sold in the place of good articles.
24844. You mean that unskilled labour with the help of machinery can now
turn out work that lequired more skilled labour previously to the introduction
of machinery ?
It turns out the work ; I do not say anything about the quality of it. It is a
notable fact that as a rule the best class of goods in the Sheffield trades are
produced, as they were produced previously, by hand labour.
24845. 1 suppose there are more hands employed since the introduction of
machinery, are there not?
When you take into consideration the quantity of vork turned out, there is
nothing near the quantity of hands employed. Of course the world has in-
creased in population, and there is a larger trade, so that you can scarcely make
the comparison on the quantity of good produced.
24846. And you now produce a class of goods interior, you say, but much
cheaper, than you produced formeily ?
Yes
24847. Do you suppose that this minute subdivision of labour is necessary
for this cheap production ?
Yes, 1 should say that it is. You see, as I pointed out, the men are only
skilled ill one particular section ; so that it would be impossible for them to
work under other conditions in connection with machinery.
24848. Do you know where the cheap classes of goods go to ; are they for
export, or are they for home use?
Chiefly lor export. As a rule the Englishman likes a good article; he is not
sure of getting it, that is the mischief.
24849. If anything were done that increased the cost of production, would
that, in your opinion, cause us to lose the export trade, or any purtion of it ?
The question that has exercised my mind in making these inquiries is this : we
are alwavs hearing about severe competition, but it does appear to me, as a
working man (which, of course, I am ; 1 was brought up to si trade, the file
trade, and am a practical workman), that the time has come when certainly
there
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
603
4#/i JprzV 1889.] Mr. Uttley. \_CoHlhwed.
tliere will have to be something (ione in the direction of less profits. People say
that thev do not get much profit, but it does certainly a()pear to us, as work-
men, rather a strange thing that there should be large div idends declared in con-
nection with legitimate businesses ; and we are of opinion that the style of living
is so very different fi’om what it was in the days of our fathers especially, that it
will he a seiious question as to whether it can be longer continued. It is certainly
patent that these workmen who produce the goods are to-day working under
very xuuch w orse conditions, as a rule, than what their fathers were, so far as
the amount of money they are able to earn, and the amount of time they have
got to labour are concerned, whatever people may say to the contrary. There
are some that say we were as bad 30 or 40 , or 50 years ago as we are now ; but
as a rule (I can speak for my owm trade), the material that the men have got to
work upon entails upon them an extra amount of manual labour which is not
recouped by the amount of wages, or any amount of extra wages which they
receive ; so that their conditions are worse. They are worse in many
respects. The taxes that they have got to pay are very much higher ; and
the only thing whicli has enabled the workmen to continue under the conditions
that tiiey labour under (I speak now of the lower class of workmen who are
specially sw'eated) is the fact that we have had the cheap loaf and the means
of getting food on very reasonable conditions. Had we had anything like the
time that I can just remember, we should have had, no doubt, the horrors of
starvation in this country under existing conditions in such a form as would, to
my mind have been most appalling.
24850. Taking these things together into consideration, I gather from you
that you think that the condition of the people you are speaking of is rather
worse th'in it was, say 20 years ago ?
1 do.
24851. I suppose there is a good deal of competition in the cheap class of
goods, 1 mean, foreign competition. We find ourselves in the export trade, I
presume, in competition with other countries, do we not?
Yes.
24852. What 1 want to get at from you is whether, in your opinion, these
low wages could be materially increased without increasing the cost of produc-
tion to such an extent as would make us unable to e.xport in the face of foreign
competition. Do you think that wages could be materially increased without
increasing the cost of production at all ?
I believe that there are too many people to-day who are making a living out
of it, what we may term middle-class men who themselves simply go iu to
obtain orders and get their living out of the workmen. I believe that that
class of men are certainly the cause of the goods of necessity costing rather more
to produce them than what they otherwise would ; and I believe that is one
reason why we are not in a position to compete in many instances with the
foreigner or with other persons.
24853. You think that if the profit which is made on the articles at their
present prices were, as you would consider, more equally divided between capital
and labour, the remuneration of labour, that is to say, wages, might be consider-
ably raised?
1 do. I think that if some of the middlemen were removed away,and the ground
was cleared in that direction, we should find a very marked improvement; we
should get better goods, and the men would receive better pay, and the mer-
chants and manufacturers (I speak now of respectable merchants and manu-
facturers) would be able to conduct their business on quite as easy lines as they
do to-day.
248y4. Do you know why it is that tliese merchants, large houses, make their
books up on Friday, as you say thev do ?
I suppose, where they employ a large number of hands, it is in consequence
of the inconvenience that would be experienced if they were on the Saturday
morning, say, or Saturday noon, to get the books prepared, so that the cashier
(ID) 4 G 2 might
604
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
4M April 1889.]
Mr. Uttley.
\_Co‘)itinued.
might pay the wages. It would entail certainly a little more office labour
or a little better arrangement.
24844* Where do these little masters and other middlemen you have spoken
of dispose of their goods ; do they sell them to larger houses ?
To larger houses.
24855. In Sheffield?
Yes.
24856. They do not sell them direct 's*
IX ot to the consumer.
24857. I suppose there is great competition among the workmen, i? there
not r
In the sense of working cheaper, do you mean ?
24858. Yes ?
When trade is bad. of course, there is competition.
24859. You mentioned just now a case of a man who made for \ s. goods
which were paid 1 5. 6 e?. for, and was eventually asked to make them for 9 d.,
and would not, but another man did ?
In that particular instance there was no provision made by any
society for the assistance of the man when he was either short of work,
or out of work ; and it is a remarkable fact that these Wadsley cutlers,
who certainly stand in the worst position, liave had no society for
years, but they find now that they are compelled out of their small earnings
to combine together, in order to endeavour to improve their position.
In my own trade we have paid out during seasons of depression in money that
has been subscribed by the workmen very many thousands of pounds per
annum ; and our experience is that in a very bad time of trade the out-of-work
benefits from the societies amounting to not quite as much as the men would
be working at, but very closely approaching to it. If a man has a wife
and three or four children, he would get into the teens of shillings, and in
that way he is able to keep himself from the parish, and to tide over the
difficulty with what little work might be found him. We allow him to do,
under certain conditions, what little work he can obtain, and he thus tides over
the depression ; and, owing to this very largely in the past, we have been saved
from the condition that I have been describing. Unfortunately, this last year
or two we have not been so well circumstanced in our society, and things have
gone very much low'er. Of course I might be supposed to be speaking with a
rather prejudiced feeling, as a trades unionist ; but these are matters of fact
that come out in the actual working, and I mention them because they are
matters which might be taken into consideration. Of course, gentlemen have
differences of opinion, but the actual experience is that where provision is made
by any body of men in society, they never fall down so low as regards their
wages as do those trades where there are no societies.
24860. Do you know whether there is any labour going into these trades
that you mentioned from other trades, or are they generally carried on from
father to son ?
Generally speaking from father to son. There are a certain number of
apprentices who come in in other ways which are allowed ; in fact some trades
make no restrictions whatever as to the number of apprentices.
24861. I want to know, as a matter of fact, whether much labour that was
formerly employed in any other trade is going into these trades which you have
mentioned ?
The general tendency to-day is to employ purely unskilled labour. The intro-
duction of machinery chiefly has contributed to that.
24862. The trade can be carried on by unskilled labour you say ; w’hat I
want to know is whether the unskilled labour from other trades, or agricultural
labourers, or any others, are going into these trades ?
You
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
605
4th April 19,^9. ~\ Mr. Uttley. \_Continued.
You refer now to the trade as carried on under the introduction of
machinery ?
24863. The trade 11s it is now ?
We have two classes of trade. I wish you to clearly understand me, and
myself to clearly understand you. We have the workman who is the skilled
man and works on the old lines, and we have the system of carrying on by
machinery. Which do you mean ?
2^864. I mean the unskilled labour ?
That is the machinery. In many instances in our trade the hand work, the
hand cutting, is taken to the machine shop ; in other instances the employers
would not pay them a sufficient remuneration to encourage them to go into
the machine shop, consequently they have introduced cheap labour that is purely
unskilled.
24865. Where does this cheap unskilled labour come from?
The agricultural districts ; there is always a very large quantity of people
who have no particular trade, hanging about in a large industrial centre, and it
takes up some of those to the permenant injury of those who have been brought
up to the trade.
24866. The condition of the trade is better than it was a year or two ago, is
it not ?
Very much better.
24H67. These wages that you mentioned to us ; are they the wages of the
present day ?
Yes, the wages under the sweating are the wages of the present day.
24868. \Vould they be worse a a year ago?
In our trade we have been able to advance 5 per cent.
24860. You mentioned certain cases where a man earned so much money ;
I mean is he earning it now, or was he earning it a year ago, or when ; when
did you find that out?
The inquiries have been made within this last three months.
24870. Then what I want to know from you is whether you think that as
those inquiries have been made within the last three months, the persons you
have inquired about were probably earning less a year or two ago than they are
now ?
Slightly less ; there was no indication of improvement until within this last
few months ; that is, in the workmen’s wages.
24871. Have prices been going down during your recollection ; wages ?
Generally ; I stated that in 1883 in our trade the full list was paid. Now it
is 10 pel’ cent, at the best houses. There is a disposition just now to rise; in
fact we have got a 5 per cent, advance generally.
24872. I think you said that the cheap goods are mixed with the better
goods, and sold as better goods ?
Yes ; in the case of the table knives ; I have very little doubt that that is the
case, because they so closely approach to the general appearance of the better
goods; that is more particularly pointed out as a danger.
24873. Have you anything in the way of remedies you would wish to
propose ?
I have thought of one remedy, and that is supposing the persons who made
goods in many trades were compelled to put their name on, they would not be
so disposed to make such a cheap, rubbishliy article, because their credit would
go along with the goods that they sold.
24874. Who do you mean exactly by “ the person who makes the
goods take one of these in which you told us there are half a dozen people
making it ?
I mean the manufacturer.
( 11 .)
4 G 3
24875. Does
606
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
^th April \Sd,d.'\ Mv. Uttley. {^Continued.
24875. Does he not put his name upon it r
Not on the commonest ; he has got a little conscience left ; he does not put
it on the commonest goods.
24876. What will they put on them ?
They will have some mark or some name that possibly does nut exist.
24877. They put “ Sheffield ” on, I suppose?
They put “ Sheffield ” on ; that is the w’orst of it ; they damage Sheffield’s
reputation very much by these goods going out in the name of Sheffield.
24878. And you think they ought to be obliged to put their names on
them ?
I think it would be a good thing.
24879. Have you anything else that occurs to you as a remedy ?
There was one thing that suggested itself to me ; though it does not come
properly under sweating. I think perhaps you are disposed to allow me a little
latitude. One thing that suggested itself to me was, that, seeing that
we are in the face of such a severe and well trained competition from
abroad ; that is, that the system of technical education is gone into
so thoroughly by the Germans and others, whilst our manufacturers are very
remiss in this matter. I have had two cases that I know of my own obser-
vation where young men who were exceedingly pushing and intelligent placed
themselves under the care of the master of the School of Art, at very great
sacrifice ami expense, worked hard during the day, and expended their earn-
ings in paying for their tuition, and when they had attained to a fair degree of
proficiency, and ought to have received some little recognition in the shape of
a decent salary, they were driven away from the town owing to the fact that
they were not appreciated. They quite recognised that they were better work-
men for the training they had had, but still they would not appreciate them in
the sense of giving them decent wages ; and in one instance thi* young man was
driven to Manchester, and in the other instance he came to London ; and I
know of many cases where it has had the effect of creating competition, and (I
am speaking now as a Sheffielder) I am satisfied that our manufacturers are
certainly very much beliind in this matter. We receive very little encouragement
in the matter of technical education. I happen to be on the committee, and I
am sure that one of the things that is most painful is the amount of apathy that
exists amongst manufacturers in the direction of technical education.
24880. What committee is it that you are on r
I am on the committee of the technical school.
24881. Do you think technical education would counteract the effects of the
more minute subdivision of labour to any extent?
I am nut regarding it from that liglU ; but I do regard it in tiiis way, that, if
we are to succeed, and if we are to hold our own, we must be prepared in our
various industries to have the very best intelligence that can possibly be brought
to bear. For instance, in the silver trades and other local trades, where a very
high state of perfection in art is necessary to keep us abreast of our competitors,
I think that the young men ought to be encouraged more than they are ; I have
felt that very keenly.
24882. By “ encouraged” I understand you to mean that you think it is to
the interest of everybody in Sheffield that if a young man takes the trouble and
goes to the expense of educating himself, and arrives at a state of efficiency, he
ought to be kept in Sheffield ?
I do think so ; and I think it would pay the employers to do that and give
him such an amount of remuneration as would encourage him ; but I
think, that if manufacturers would only encourage the most intelligent
boys in their employment to attend the schools of art and become proficient, not
only in the detail and practical v. ork of the shop, but in the higher technical
grades, then, as I believe, we should find ourselves as a nation benefited very
much.
24883. I understand
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
607
‘^th April 1889 .]
Mr. Uttley.
[ Continued
24883. I m)derstaii(l you that you do not complain that there is no sufficient
opportunity for their obtaining technical instruction, but that, when they have
obtained it, they are not properly appreciated at Sheffield ?
I think we ought to have some hundreds of youths regularly at work, where
we have not got d >zens, in carrying out the ideas that they receive in the work-
shop to something beyond, and making themselves thoroughly proficient. I do
not think that, in regard to some of the branches of trade; I do not refer to
the cutlers or such trades; but I reli r more particularly to the artistic trades,
which of course v( ry largely compose our business.
24884. Lord Basing I want to ask you a question about apprenticeship. 1
suppose it is the case that apprenticeship is less fashionable now than it was
formerly amongst the working classes?
It is.
24885. Do you attribute that to an indisposition on the part of young men
to be bound, and on the part of their parents to bind them, or to carelessness on
the part of the employers to provide themselves with labour in that way in
respect of which they consider themselves bound to exercise a kind of parental
authority over the young people ; to which cause do you attribute that falling
off in the apprenticeship system ?
(3f course, under the old system of apprenticeship, where it was a rule that
every boy should be bound for a given term of years, the apprentices, even in
the manufactories themselves, were under the direct control and care of tlie
manufacturer, who was himself a practical man.
2q88d Yes, I quite understand that ; but why is it that that practice, which
I understand, is no longer the fashion r
Tnere is something in the indisposition of young men to be bound, but not so
much as some people think. The position is more this: that the employers
do not care to be troubled with having a lad bound, and being in the responsible
position that they formei ly were with a boy. Under the old apprenticeship con-
ditions, if a boy was ill he had to be provided for. Now, he goes into a place,
and they say, “ We will instruct you in this trade and pay you a^ much, a cer-
tain proportion out of what you earn ” ; and in many instances they allow that
sort of slip-shod way to go on, because it appears to free them from any special
responsibility ; but still we have very many bound apprentices to-day.
24887. Even when they are are bound apprentice, you consider, as I gather,
that they do not get such good training as they used to do ?
No.
24888. And that, 1 suppose, is, amongst other things, why you say there is a
great need of technical education r
Yes, that is so.
24889. When you spoke of their going to schools, did you mean schools were
they learn drawing and science, or schools were thev learn the technicalities
of trade ?
Both.
24890. The Government schools do not go so far as to teach the trade
manipulation ; they only teach the drawing and science ?
That is so.
24891. Even that you consider is urgently required in the bringing up of
young men to such trades as prevail in Sheffield ?
I think the application of the practical work, the practical knowledge obtained
in the shop, to the higher branches in connection with the trade, the scientific
branches, would certainly hel(j to bring out and develop very good workmen ;
and we must certainly have something of the kind. I will just explain, in
reference to the apprenticeship, that the reason why many changes have taken
place, and there is not that care exercised, is in consequence of the firms assum-
ing larger dimensions ; there are more people employed, and there is not that
(11 ) 4 G 4 opportunity
608
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
^th April 1889.]
Mr. Uttley.
[ Continued.
opportunity of paying special attention to apprentices except upon the payment
of a certain sum per week to some particularly skilled workman. That is not
done as a rule.
24892. A private tutor, in fact, is required, you think, and domestic super-
vision ?
Yes ; it is evaded in that system of loose apprenticeships.
24893. Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.~\ Could you suggest any means of con-
trolling the instruction given under apprenticesliip ?
Yes. I think that it should be made imperative that when boys are put
apprentice to a trade they should in all cases be bound, the conditions of that
apprenticeship deed being clearly specified. Of course, I would specify them
in accordance with common sense and reason ; 1 would not expect a man to
teach more than he is capable of doing, or a boy to be taught more than he was
fairly capable on the average of taking. But in case that deed was violated by
the employer, and the boy came out at 21 years of age possessing only a very
small portion, or at, any rate having been only instructed in a moderate portion of
that which had been agreed to, I should render it certainly actionable as against
the employer for the damage done to the youth ; because he certainly has
suffered very serious damage ; and it not only applies to the youth but it applies
all round, in deteriorating the quality of our workmen and also the quality of
workmanship.
24894. Do you think that the mere fact of making him liable to an action
for breach of indenture of apprentice.ship would be sufficient ; w'ould it not be
possible that the apprentice, after having been kept to one particular kind of
work instead of having been properly instructed, would be unwilling to bring
the action ?
Yes ; of course he would feel a difficulty in bringing an action ; it is always
a very expensive matter to go into a court of law.
24895. On the other hand, it might be very difficult for him to recover the
damages r
Yes.
24896. You cannot suggest any means of controlling the master during the
term of the apprenticeship ?
I should suggest this, that the master should be compelled to provide efficient
instruetion; that in all eases where he takes apprentices he should provide effi-
cient instruction.
24897. But what I want to know is, who would enforce that on the
master ?
It would be a question of either the boy himself or a public prosecutor
doing it.
248Q8. Do you think it might be done by means of an inspector, who should
inspect the instruction given to the apprentices ?
Yes ; I think that is a direction which would tend very materially to improve
the quality of our workmen.
24899. And you think that it would not have the effect of bringing appren-
ticeship into disfavour ? •
You are bound to have apprentices ; I think it would bring up the standard
very much as to the excellence of the workmen.
24900. What is the length of the term of apprenticeship usually r
Generally speaking, seven years; from 14 to 2 l years of age.
24901. Lord Basmg.~\ In the neighbourhood where I live there is a society
which exists for the purpose of apprenticing out young people, and which makes
it its business to look after them during the term of their apprenticeship ; do
you think at Sheffield, or any other great centre, it would be possible to esta-
blish some such society ?
Yes. Of course one principal factor in the efficieney of such a society would
be
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
609
4ropor-
tionately ?
No ; I mean that the hours should be reduced to eight, irrespective of what
happened with regard to wages. 1 think the tendency would be for wages to
remain at least what they are ; in fact, I do not think it is possible in the worse
paid trades for wages to sink lower than they at present are, whatever the hours
w orked may be.
24996. Is there anything else you wish to say ?
With regard to this manufacturing of cheap knives in Sheffield, which is done
by what in Sheffield we know as the little masters (who, I suppose, answer to
the logger in one place and the sweater in another). Though he very often
does manufacture the article, completely, he does not take the work out from
the large manufacturer and simply put it together and return it; he manu-
factures the article completely and sells it to the large warehouse ; and
1 have heard of large firms where they buy a certain knife at a price that they
could not get their own worknjen to put it together ibr. 1 am quite convinced
from what managers have said to me that they would be ashamed to ask their
own workmen to do it at the prices that they buy these knives at.
24997. They would be ashamed to ask their own workmen to do it, but they
are not ashamed to ask ihe little masters to supply them at that price ?
1 suppose tliey are bound in a measure to buy them from the little masters.
The little masters supply the merchants, the merchants appeal to the customers
with these cheap goods, and their customers ask for the thing, and if they can-
not
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
615
Ath April 1889.] Mr. Hukin. [^Continued.
not manufacture the thing themselves they are bound either to buy it from the
little manufacturer or lose the orders, and with these orders for cheap goods,
probably orders for better goods as well ; so that I do not see that any blame
probably attaches either to the master, or sweater, or workmen ; it is a mere
phase of economic development.
24998. The demand for cheap goods has to be supplied ?
Yes ; I think it is a result of the extreme competition. I think that unless
competition can be checked somehow or other, no permanent remedy can
probably be found. I think the evil lies in the competition.
24999. Are these cheaper goods used in England, do you know, or
exported ?
They are used in England, I believe.
2.5000. Is there anything else you have to say?
I should just like to say one word about the apprenticeship system. There
are firms who take a number of apprentices, and teach these apprentices just
one particular job in the production of an article, in which there are perhaps
a dozen different jobs. They will have a dozen apprentices each doing a
separate job. When tliese apprentices are out of their time they are offered
probably a day’s work or two days’ work a week, or dismissed altogether to
make room for new apprentices. During all this time of course one or two
skilled workmen are kept on to superintend the whole business ; and this of
course is constantly tending to bring down prices. These apprentices having
only learnt part of the job, and being thrown out of work, directly they are out
of their time, of course they enter into the market at once as competitors.
25001. That would also be part of the necessity for cheapness, would it
not?
Exactly.
25002. Lord Basing.'] Would you say exactly what you mean by a little
master ?
A little master is one who is engaged in the manufacture of articles for the
larger manufacturer or merchant.
25003. In his own house ?
On his own premises, or on premises hired from the larger manufacturer.
25004. How do you distinguish between his position and your own ; you say
that you have a separate room in a factory, and that you may employ other
people there under you; what is the difference between that case and the case
of a little master who works in his own house and has other people under
him ?
The little master produces the article entirely, and he finds the material. I
do not find the material ; the material is there ; in fact, I only do part of the
work that is required in the production of the article. The little master pro-
duces the article entirely.
25005. Chairman.] Is there anything else you would like to say ?
I think there is a little misunderstanding, perhaps, about the outworker.
The outworker seems to have been confused with the sweater. It does not
necessarily follow that because a man is an outworker he is a sweater or little
master at all. A workman, a grinder, hires a room where he may, and gets
work where he may, and if he does not work on the premises of the firm he does
the work for he is called an outworker ; he is not necessarily a sweater or a fogger,
or anything, but a workman.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
(II.)
4 H 4
616
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
April 1889.
Mr, CHARLES LAW, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is Examined,
as follows :
25006. Chairman?^ What is your firm ?
C. Law and Sons, cutlery manufacturers
25107. At Sheffield ?
Yes.
25008. Have you a factory in Sheffield ?
I hire premises.
2500Q. Do you carry on all your work on those premises ?
Excepting the grinders and forgers, they work out.
25010. What is the character of the work you do ; what class of goods?
We make pen and pocket knives throughout.
25011. I think this man Howard, who has been spoken of, was in your
employ, was he not ?
Yes.
25012. Have you anything you would like to say on that point
I have some particulars here. 1 find he began to work for me in April
1887 to July 1888 ; and the first 13 weeks his wages averaged 10 5. 3 c?., the
last 13 weeks 10 5 . 6 c?. He earned as little as 6 5., and from that to 12 s. in the
first quarter; in the last quarter he earned as low as 3 5 . 6 c?., and got up to
13 5 .
25013. 'Loxdi Basing.^ All being piece-work ?
All piece-work. The last three weeks that he wmrked he earned 12 5., 12s. 6c?.,
and 13 5. respectively; previously he had earned ] 1 5., 10 5., 11 5., and so on.
I do not know whether this man worked entirely for me or not ; we employ
several grinders, and they come for the work ; and some we know work for other
people ; but I did not happen to be at this man’s wheel. 1 found him such
work as he came for ; he brought it in, and I gave him more.
25014. Was he working on your premises?
No.
25015. He would come to you for work and you would give him some, and
could not tell whether he got work from others or not ?
I could not.
25016. What would you be paying him r
The work I gave him out in the general way was what we call pairs, that is,
the two blades, a pocket and a pen blade. For a pocket knife which had a
pocket and a pen blade in we paid 3 s. 6 c?. tlie gross of pairs.
25017. That is, a gross of two blades ?
Yes, the' pocket and pen blade. Sometimes we might have a lot of pocket
blades on the shelf and no pen blades, simply because they were not forged. We
might give out pocket blades for which we should pay 2 s. 3 d. ; if it was vice
versa, when they got the pen blades it was 1 5. 3 c?.; it was considered a fair
arrangement as betwixt the two ; we did not use either of them separately in
making the knives.
25018. That is 2 5. 3 d. and 1 5. 3 c?. a gross, of course ?
Yes.
25019. Do you know what deductions he would have to make ; or you would
not know that, perhaps ?
I did not know anything about that.
25020. Have
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
617
4 April 1889.]
Mr. Law.
[ Continued.
25020. Have you much of that kind of work ?
No, it forms a small proportion; we might ger, up 15 or 20 gross for the
week.
25021. I want you to compare what lie was earning with what other men
working for you in the same class of work were earning ?
I could not, because other men might work by themselves, or they might have
somebody to help them, and they might work for other people.
25022. I suppose you have no difficulty about getting plenty of hands to do
this kind of work at those prices ?
We have not. I’liere are other men who do that work who draw 30 5., 40 5.,
or 50 s. or 4 1., just as they happen to have worked, or according to the assis-
tance they had on the same kind of blade, the same price, and according
to the time they worked ; they might make a full week, and they might make a
short one.
25023. You have no difficulty in getting any amount of hands to do that
work at the prices per gross that yon mentioned ?
None whatever ; we have to refuse work repeatedly to grinders who come
seeking it. Sometimes I might say to this man, “ Well, Howard, you have
not done much this week ? ” Well, he had had a bit of bad luck, something of
that kind was his explanation. I did not say, “ Have you been working for
anyone else ? ” and he did not tell me.
25024. All except the grinding you do on your own prqmises
All but grinding and blade forging.
25025. Bv men who are working directly for you r
Yes.
25026. Do you buy from these little masters ?
Well, [ regard myself as a little master; that is to say, not in a very large
way ; we sell to the I'actors or merchants of the town of Sheffield, and also to
the wholesale houses in London, &c.
25027. Do you sell to other maufactnrers ?
Some of our customers have begun to manufacture their own; consequently
they are both merchants and manufacturers ; and in that sense we sell to other
manufacturers, because recently they have begun manufacturing their own
instead of buying altogether.
25028. Have prices gone down much of late in your trade ?
Well, this last five or six years they have.
25029. How do you account for that?
1 account for it mostly from German competition in our own particular line,
that is, in pen and pocket knives.
25030. Is the German competition very severe?
Yes.
25031. That is for goods for the home market or for export ?
Either home or export.
25032. As to the tendency of labour to become more unskilled, is that the
case ; is there more unskilled labour in the trade than formerly ?
I do not think so, excepting what you can infer from the fact that there are
not so many apprentices as there used to be. There is not such full employ-
ment for good workmen, and they get used to working at cheaper kinds of
work rather than better work, because there is not sufficient better work for
them.
25033. The general tendency of the work is to become cheaper ?
Yes.
25034. And therefore men who formerly were employed as skilled artisans
(11.) 4 I
618
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Ml April 1 S 89 .] IContbmed.
are obliged now to d') work tliat does not require the same de°Tee of
skill ?
In many cases that has been so during the bad time of trade. I myself
was apprenticed to best work, and yet we are now producing mostly cheap
work. ^
25035. Should I be correct in saying that in your opinion the demand fur
the better class of work is falling off, and the demand for the cheaper class of
work is increasing?
That has been so ; but I rather think there is a tendency to reverse things at
the present day; 1 think so.
25036. You mean in the hist few months ?
Yes ; but the tendency has been cheapness all the way thi'ough the bad
times.
25037. Is the quality of the production inferior to what it was formerly; I
mean in the cheaper class of goods ?
I think the cheaper class of goods have improved of late years in finish,
belter workmanship about them ; because they could not be sold unless they
were a nearer approach to a middle quality kind of thing; because the Germans
turn out their tilings so very nice.
25038, That might be the appearance?
I mean appearances only; I do not mean for utility. They are no more
uselul, but are a neater fashion and a nicer finish, and are more pleasing to
the eye.
25039. What is the cheapest class of knife that you manufacture?
That is the cheapest part that this man was engaged on.
25040. What is the value of that article ; what do you sell them for?
Twenty-four shillings per gross.
25041. You sell them at 24 s. a gross ?
Yes ; 2 i. a dozen.
25042. d hat is the cheapest AAork you do ?
There are one or two other items that we do very trifling quantities in that
come to a little less money.
25043. If wages were liigher, do you suppose that it would so increase the
cost of production as to prevent your competing with these German goods?
I do not know about wages being higher. I know lids; we advanced some
goods 1 d. and some 2 (/. a dozen, and that has led to the non-selling of them ;
people will not buy, simply because we ask Id. or 2 d. a dozen more money.
25044. You mean, you have increased the cost of the article I d. per
dozen ?
Yes. Last November Ave gave our cutlers J s. a Aveek advance of wages, and
some of the girls an advance, too, at Christmas. That was voluntary on our
part ; we had a fairish demand for goods, and that lead us to ask for more
money. Iii some cases we asked 2 d. per dozen more, and in some 1 d. That
lasted till the > ear was out, and since then the people do not buy them, or only
in very small quantities.
25045. Do you mean that they do not buy them at all r
In some cases they do not buy them at all, some of the knives.
2504!'. The increase of the price by 1 d. or 2 d. a dozen is practically a (tro-
hibitory price ?
Ye.s ; and in that case, when we advance the men’s wages, the logical con- ,
clinion is, If we advance wages, we must advance the price of the article, and
then ii does not sdl. That is a matter of fact.
25047. Is labour more sub-divided in your trade than it used to be ?
Perhaps more so than it used to be, .<^ay, when I was an apprentice. When
I was
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
Gl[)
4th April 1889.] Mr. Law. \^Contiiiued.
I was an apprentice we began and made a knife right away through, finished
it; that is, the cutler did ; nowadays they get them part way through by one
set of hands, and they are finislied by another.
25048. That enables the article to be made clieaper, does it?
Men that are always \\orking on the steam power, always glazing and getting
up the handles and the spring backs, get used to it ; they are called halters, and
they become more efficient at that ; in fact in some cases they have always been
hafters ; and on the other hand a man that has always been used to putting
them together, and is called a setter-in, is more used to putting together.
25049. One of therestdtsof the sub-division of labour would be that the
production would be cheapened, would it not?
I do not know that that would follow ; because the knife must not exceed a
certain cost in the production, else it is unsaleable.
25050. You did not quite catch my question, I think. I said, one of the
results of dividing the labour in this way would be that the article would be
made cheaper in that way than it otherwise could ?
Well, you see we are on our merits to produce it as cheap as we can already,
and the sub-division of the labour cannot get it lower.
25051 But vou do sub-divide the labour already ?
Yes.
25052. What I ask is, by doing that you are enabled, are you not, to make
the article cheaper than if you did not do that ?
1 do not think so, so much as we are enabled perhaps to get a better
finish.
25053. You say that now different parts of a knife are made by different
hands, which hands, you have told us, become skilful in a particular branch of
the woi k ; under those circumstances cannot that knife be made cheaper than it
was when it was all made by one cutler r
I do not think so
25054. Then what is the object of the sub-division ?
We get a better finish on the article. A man that is always finishing will
finish the knives i.-etter than a man that is doing sometimes one job and some-
times the other ; and also the man that is putting them together will put
them together better than if lie were sometimes hafting and sometimes
finishing.
24055. Then shall 1 take it that the article is not cheaper, but that it is
better ?
Better finished ; that is, I am now speaking of our own system of work, whicli
is a sub- division ; it is not that we produce it cheaper, but we produce a more
uniform article and a nearer approach to the appearance of German knives.
24056. I am talking not only of sub-division in your shop, but of sub-divi-
sion of labour generally, and what I want to know is what your opinion of the
results of the sub-division of labour is. You say that it does not enable the
article to be made cheaper, but, 1 understand you, it does enable the article to
be made better ?
Yes '; but if I were selling a knife at 2 a. a dozen, and I could get the thing
produced quicker by sub division of labour, supposing I had not that system in
hand at the present time, it does not follow that I should go and sell it for less
than 2 5. a dozen.
25057. It does not follow that you would sell it for less ; but it follows that
you would get it made for less, I should think r
Possibly it might lend rather in that direction than to stay as it was.
25058. Do you know whether the middle-man exists in vour trade at all?
T1 le middle-men exist in this way, as persons of very small means who go to
the factors for orders, who are in a way workmen and get their orders ; but they
manufacture the article. 1 can scarcely call them middle-men; though they
(11.) 4I2 go
620
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
4M April 1889.] Mr. Law. \^Continued.
go and employ a few other workmen like themselves, they are manufaeturers.
But I do not think they buy their own material, it is provided for them ; that is
to make up the knives ; it is provided for them at prices agreed upon. They
may be middle-men in that sense. I may be a middle-man between the mer-
chant and the workpeople I employ, but still I am out-and-out a manufac-
turer.
25059. But do not you find your own material?
Yes, 1 make it all the way through, from beginning to end ; we do not buy
anything manufactured that we can make.
25060. I suppose another result of this suh-division of labour would be that
the man who is thoroughly acquainted with one particular branch of luaking
the knife, hafting, or whatever it is, is incapable of doing anything else?
Well, so far as our men are concerned that is not so, inasmuch as sometimes
we cannot keep the men on to that leading job that they are most used to, and
they have to go helping another man to do something else, so they get some-
what more varied employment; and we have some 20 men.
25061. Putting yourself on one side, do not you suppose, or do you suppose,
that that is a general efiect of the sub-division of labour?
I should think it must liave a tendency that way.
.25062. I forget whether you told the Committee how many hands you
employ ?
We have 20 men, and four girls, and one boy.
25063. What do the girls do ?
They whet the knives, sharpen them on the oilstone, and wipe the grease off,
and wrap them up, and do general warehouse work.
25064. And the boy, what does he do?
The boy assists generally in anything that is found for him to do.
25065. And you do the whole of the manufacture of the article from begin-
ning to end, I understand, excepting the grinding?
We employ the grinders and forgers ; they work out instead of in.
25066. You do it all on your own premises except the grinding r
The whole of the other people work on our own premises, excepting the
grinders and forgers.
25067. Can you give us the wages that you pay these men ; I suppose they
are all paid by piece-work, are they not.”
No ; by the day.
25068. What do they earn?
They get from 16.9. to 27s.-, it depends. Some of them that have been
longer with us are gettintr more money, and of course some are more capable as
leading men than others.
25069. Lord JBasing.~\ How many hours do they work to get those
wages ?
Fifty-seven and a half.
25070. Chairman.'] How long have you been paying that rate of wages?
We have been paying that rate of wages all the way along to last November,
excepting 1 .9. a week which we advanced them in No\ ember. *lhey were
receiving from 15 s. to 26 s., and then they got 16 s. to 27 s. ; every man on the
place got an advance of 1 s.
25071. Do you mean that the lowest are earning 16 s., and the highest are
earning 27s.?
Yes.
25072. At different kinds of work ?
Thev are mostly working at the same kind of work, but there are some men
' who
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
621
Ath April 1889.J Mr. L/AAV. \_Continued.
aaIio haA'e been with us some fiA^e or six years, and invariably they get another
shilling as the years get along, and some are only younger men.
25073. Have you got any rule as to how much the men are to turn out in
the day ?
None whatever.
25074. Then how do you check them ; I suppose if a man is not satisfactory
you discharge him ?
That is it.
25075. The quantity that the men turn out has nothing to do with what they
earn ?
No. There are very few of the men who work by themselves ; probably two
men work together, or perhaps three ; sometimes a man works by himself. If we
thought a man was not getting through his work pretty well we might put him
to some work by himself ; give him a job out.
25076. What do you mean by that ?
We might give him some knives out to make ; we might keep him at that
work for two or three weeks.
25077. Piecework?
Not piecework ; but he would be making up knives without any assistance ;
we should know whether he was earning his wages or if he was doing satis-
factorily.
25078. Lord Clifford of Cliudleigh?^ You were an apprentice yourself, were
you not ?
Yes.
25079. Do you think that the apprentices now are less attentive to their Avork
than they were ?
As far as my knoAvledge goes, I do not think there are any apprentices in the
cutlery trade now ; I never hear of them ; if there are, it is outside my know-
ledge.
25080. Lord Basing.~\ The system is going out ?
The apprenticing ; I think there is no apprenticeship in the cutlery trade, or
only very slight indeed ; I do not hear of it.
25081. Chairman^ Do you forge the blades yourself ?
We cut them out with a machine.
25082. All of them ?
Yes, and then they go to be hammered, put in the fire and smithed, we call
it, and after smithing they are hardened and tempered and are brought
into the warehouse.
25083. That is not done on your premises?
That is not done on our premises.
25084. And that would be paid by the piece ?
Yes.
25085. Do you pay the same prices all round to these outworkers, the forgers
and the grinders ; how do you pay them, a uniform rate ?
Yes. Mr. Davis, the Factory Inspector, called at our place, and I showed him
the wage-book, and he saw from the wage-book the prices and the wages that
all have earned; he also saw the prices paid for the same work to the other
grinders, which were the same all round.
25086. Is there any regular trade statement of prices ?
I do not think so.
25087. It is a matter of bargain between the different masters and the men
they employ ?
Yes. I might say with regard to the grinding of these particular blades (it is
a farce to call them ground, or glazed either), it is a most ridiculous and absurd
(II.) 4 I 3 statement
622
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Ath April 1889 .]
Mr. Law.
[ Continued.
statement to say that that blade should be paid 3 5. per gross for, inasmuch as
there is scarcely any work done for it.
25088. That is the pocket blade ?
The pen blade that has been put before your Lordships by the last witness.
25089. And the one which you pay 1 .y. 2 >d. for ?
Yes. It is a most absurd thing to call it ground or glazed ; it is simply a
sort of going through the motion ; it is neither ground or glazed in the sense
expected of a blade that you would have to pay 3 5. a gross for ; they are
almost as thick when they come from the grinder on the cutting edge as when
they go. The thing sells ; they do them according to price, they do the work
according to the pi ice that is paid for it, and I presume we sell the article for
what we can get according to the quality.
25090. Has there never been a statement of j)rices at Sheffield for this kind
of work ?
Yes, I believe there used to he many years ago, but it is out of my recollec-
tion. I know this; we used to receive some bs. and 6^ and "J s. and 8^. and
10. V. for making knives, and we manufacture them for much less now,
and w’e find all the material. Of course they are not made as they used
to be.
25091. How do you mean “ not made as they used to be ” ?
They are put together in a commoner form, cheaper. The same class of
work does exist no doubt to-day as did formerly, but I take it that the market
has been educated into buying cheap goods, very largely by the Germans, I
rather expect, and we have had to follow suit ; and during these bad times I
believe a great many workpeople would have been wdthout work if they could
not have had the cheap work to do.
25092. Do you mark your goods with your name ?
In some instances, wdiere they will take our mark on them, we do.
25093. Where who will take your mark ?
Our customers ; some customers will not have any name upon them ; they
will have “ Sheffield Cutlery,” or something of that kind, but we prefer to put
our mark on the whole of them.
25094. Is this German competition you have spoken of increasing?
I thought it was decreasing some time ago, but my impression is that the
goods are coming in now without mark, and selling without any mark on.
25095. Do you mean tha|; there is nothing at all on them?
Nothing at all on them ; 1 have seen them in London this week.
25096. Lord Basing^ What do you mean by Germany ; where were they
made ?
At Solingen and other places. I might say that I have taken in samples to
Sheffield houses, perhaps a number of new samples ; I have bestowed a great
deal of attention on them ; I thought they would be bound to bring a lot of busi-
ness, but on account of partly depression in trade, and also the fact of getting
imitations of our patterns or other knives from Germany, they would tell us
there was nothing cheaj) among them, and, in numerous instances, we attribute
our non-success to the fact that our customers could get what they wanted from
Germany if we could not conform to the prices they might offer us.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
G23
Die Veneris, 5 ® Aprilis, 1889
LORDS PRESENT:
Duke of Norfolk.
Lord Kenry {Earl of Dunraven and
Lord Clifford of Chudleigb.
Earl of Derby.
Movnt-Earl).
Lord Sandhurst.
Lord Thring.
LORD KENRY (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl),
IN THE Chair.
Mr. CHARLES LAW, having been re-called, is further Examined, as follows:
125097. Chairmati.'] I understood that you have something you wish to add
to your evidence ?
If you please. I stated to your Lordships yesterday that our cutlers, that is
the in-workers, receive from 16.9. to 27 s. a week. That is paid in full; there
are no deductions whatever, no shop-rent or gas or materials to hnd out of it ;
and that was not stated to your Lordships yesterday. The other evidence that
was given in respect of some of the cutlers in Sheffield was, that there were
certain deductions from the wages for rent and power and material, and so forth.
In our case it is not so ; which materially alters the manner of conducting our
business as compared with what some people in the trade do. Our cutlers
wmrk h7\ hours per week, for which the average, if you divide the 16 and
the 27 s., would come out at about 21 Anri it was stated in evidence of other
witnesses that cutlers work 70 hours for an average of 16 s. per week.
25098. That was not speaking of in-workers ?
No, out-workers.
25099. You are speaking of in-wurkers ?
25100. When you say earning from 16 .9. to 27 s., do you mean that the mean
of the two would be a fair average?
25101. That there are about as many earning 27 s. as there are 16 9. ?
Yes ; they get 16 18 s., 20 s., 22 s., and 23 s., according to their abilities
or the time they have been with us.
25102. Can you tell me how many men you have got who are earning 27 s. ?
We have one earning 27 s., and one 26 s.
25103. And how many would you have earning 16 s. r
Some three or four earning 16 5., and they would be the younger men, who
scarcely may be called men ; 1 do not think they are 21, or only just about that.
The older men are getting 18 s. and 20
25104. And what did you say was the average?
Twenty-one shillings ; but 1 have not w orked the amounts out. I do not
think it would come to 21 5. ; it was my rough way of estimating it. When one
looks at it ill the way you put it, it would not come out 21 5. ; it would come
(1 L) 4 I 4 out
Yes.
Y es.
624
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th April 1889.]
Mr. Law.
[ Continued.
out 18 a. or 19 s. ; that is what I should say as a guess, and I should be under
the -mark there rather than over. But there are no deduetions. And I might
say that our place is open the day after New Year’s Day, and they have work
all the year round, excepting general holidays, or when there is a breakdown
of machinery, and then we endeavour to find them other work if we can ; but
they never know bad weeks from being short of work. For several years we
have always had a great demand for our goods, which I attribute to using
machinery, which turns out the articles uniform and nice. Your Lordship
asked me yesterday as to the subdivision of labour, and I think we perhaps
misunderstood one another. You asked me whether 1 did not regard the sub-
dividing the labour as cheapening the article.
25105. I think your evidence was (0 the effect that the subdivision of labour
had not cheapened the production ?
That, with the help of machinery in our case, it enables us to turn out a more
uniform finished article, which is better appreciated by our customers ; conse-
quently we get a better command of business than some of those people who
pursue a different course, who do not adopt the machinery, though they may
adopt subdivision of labour. The result is that we have a more continuous
business ; it keeps our workpeople more constantly employed. There is a great
deal of difference between a man getting a wage all the year round and being
sometimes in work and sometimes not in work.
25106. Your men, as I understand you, are working full time all the year
round ?
Yes ; there has not been a case for some few years now of men having to lose
any time because we were short of work ; consequently the results to the work-
people in receipt of w'ages must be better than in those cases where the men
sometimes have work and sometimes have not.
25107. Is there anything you wish to add r
With regard to this man Howard being employed by a sweater, the depo-
sition before the coroner was that he was employed by a sweater, and there has
been considerable discussion upon it, and, in consequence of our using
machinery to a large extent, and working for one or two of the principal houses
in the town, it is fairly understood that we are sweaters ; that is the construction
that is put upon it in Sheffield.
25108. By “fairly” understood, you mean generally understood?
Yes ; insomuch that a year or two ago there was some correspondence in
the papers pointing to our particular place, almost denoting the situation ; it
was put in a condensed form, but by the description of the work it clearly
pointed to ourselves, and also to our customers ; so that 1 wish to have an
opportunity of explaining to your Lordships that we are really out-and-out
manufacturers, more so than a great many of the people in the town’, because
we make up the scales, blades, and springs altogether from the raw material ;
that is, we get the billets and the steel rolled in sheets ; brass we buy in sheet,
and cut up with our own machinery ; every particle belonging to the knife,
excepting the wood covering or bone or ivory covering, that we have to
buy ; but most people engaged in the manufacture of pocket knives buy their
material from the people who make that their business ; but we do not, and that
gives us to some extent an advantage over tbe people who do. 1 simply wish
to have an opportunity of emphasising the denial that we are not sweaters in any
sense of the term. That has been preached up very strongly in Sheffield with
regard to ourselves. At least, we consider ourselves as small masters. Of
course, twenty men are not many to employ ; it is not in a big way ; but it is
rather people who are in a much smaller way, who have been manufacturers for
a dozen years, and ai e in no better position to-day than they were in years ago,
because they are content to work for journeymen’s wages.
25109. Will you look at the last answer you gave yesterday, at Question
25096 , because we do not understand it. Lord Basing asked you, “ What do
you mean by Germany ; where were the things made r ” and your answer was,
“At Solingen and other places. I might say that I have taken in samples to a
Sheffield
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
625
5th April 1889 ] Mr. Law. [^Continued.
Sheffield house, perhaps a number of new samples ; I have bestowed a great
deal of attention upon them ; I thought they would be bound to bring a
lot of business, because, according to the circumstances of the time, there is
nothing cheap there ; there is nothing acceptable, and we believe that they can
get an imitation or something similar in Germany.” We do not understand what
you mean by that answer ?
I mean according to the circumstances of the times ; if times were bad there
is less inclination on the part of a merchant to buy ; the result is that we may
bring the samples away ; they are under the impression that they can get
imitations of these kinds of goods in Germany.
251 10. Samples that you make in Sheffield ?
Yes, imitations of them, from Solingen and other places in Germany.
25 ! 1 1 . The question that you were asked was, where these goods were made ;
and as far as that is concerned you say, at Solingen and other places?
Yes ; I mean other towns in Germany adjacent to Solingen. I arn not ac-
quainted with the actual places.
25112. Is there anything more you want to add ?
No, 1 think that is sufficient. I wanted to give you this denial of being a
sweater and 10 explain. I should like to add that this man Howard was an old
man, and very deaf, and also very near-sighted, insomuch that if he brought
in his work and we said to him, “ Howard, these are not very nice,” he would
have to hold them very close to his eyes to see them ; consequently he was a
man that could not, get on with his work.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Me. JOHN WILSON is called in; and, having been sworn, is Examined,
as follows :
25113. Chairman.'] What is your business ?
I was a pen and pocket blade grinder by trade.
251 14. And what is your business now ?
I am out of business, so far as any trade is concerned.
25115. Are you a member of the Town Council of Sheffield ?
I am.
25116. And you formerly worked as a pen and pocket blade grinder ?
Yes.
25117. How long is it since you worked ?
It is about 10 years since I gave up.
25118. Since you gave up business altogether ?
Yes.
25119. But had you any business besides grinding?
No.
25120. I suppose you have got a thorough practical knowledge of the trade ?
Yes, I think I have had as much experience in it as perhaps anyone in the
world.
25121. As to the subdivision of labour that has been spoken about, does it
exist to a large extent t
To some extent ; not more so than it has done for years past.
25122. Are you speaking of one branch ?
No ; in most of the old staple trade, the spring knife, table knife, razor and
scissors trades.
25123. And the work is carried on now, is it, in the same way as it was 20
years ago, say ?
(11.) 4 K It
626
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th April. Mr. Wilson. \^Continued
It is not so much a handicraft as it was ; the adaptation of machinery has
done away with much manual labour, especially in the hafting branches.
25124. But is it not the case that formerly men were capable of making the
whole article, all the various parts of it ?
Yes, it was so. 1 never saw a man do as much at a knife as my own father.
25125. But now one man is occupied in making one particular portion of the
knife ?
Only some parts of a knife. Good workmen will go all through those parts now.
25 1 26. In some cases ?
Yes, in most of them.
25127. Then in what respect has machinery suj)erseded manual labour ?
In some respects, such as cutting out the springs. The scale and the spring
forger are almost superseded as a branch ; those things are cut by a steam fly,
and at a much cheaper rate, probably less than half the cost when they were
forged. I have some specimens that I could show to your Lordships to illus-
trate how these things are done.
25128. When you say that it is not so much a handicraft as it used to he, do
you mean that the labour is not so skilled as formerly ?
So far as good workmen are concerned, they are as skilled as ever they
were.
25129. What I mean is, do ycm mean that there is more unskilled labour in
proportion to the skilled labour than there used to be ?
INo. When I was a cutler (I was a cutler before 1 was a grinder) the scales
uould have been cut out of the sheet brass in a square form. That {producing
some inside scales) was the shape of the knife entirely; that is how they used to
be, and it would have to be cut out by a pair of hand shears by the workman
himself, and then filed to the plate. If you look at the iron part, there is just a
little fash round that would be cut off by a pair of shears. If you look at that
( pointing), one bolster is stamped in a die and the other is not. That {pointing)
is a forged spring ; there are some things they cannot fly. That S()ring {pointing)
would have to be filed in shape, and it is made just the shape of the knife.
Now those {pointing) are flyed, and those two ended springs a man would cut
out with a fly, 80 or 90 gross in a day. That {pointing) is a little cigar
holder for a gentleman’s knife, but they used to be forged, and you will see
they are cut out just the shape ; they want a little filing. Those s{)rings were
2 c?. a dozen forging ; you would buy them now at 1 .s. 6 (/. a gross, steel
included.
25130. Then I presume the introduction of machinery has cheapened the
production of the article a good deal ?
To some extent ; or in other words it has enabled the hafters, the cutlers,
who have always been considered the worst-paid trade, to get a better living
than they would do if they had to do as much as they did 20 or 30 years
ago.
25131. What do you mean by saying that the tcade is not so much of a
handicraft as it used to be ?
It used to be purely manual labour ; blades forged by a hammer, and very
little machinery in the grinding branches except the motive power to turn the
grindstone.
25132. What you mean by handicraft is nothing but manual labour ?
Yes, manual labour ; for instance, all the forging.
25133- labour of the trade generally is just as skilled
now as it used to be before the introduction of machinery ?
Yes ; for those who will pay for it.
25134. I am not talking of those who pay for it or those who will not pay ; I
am asking whether there is more unskilled labour in the trade than there used
to be r
I should
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
627
5th April 1889.] Mr. Wilson. [Continued.
I should consider that there was never as large a percentage of the good
useful knives than there is now.
2.5 1 35. But as to the cheap knives }
We always had cheap knives from the 24th of James the First, when appli-
cation was made by the Cutlers’ Company for an Act to incorporaie them as
a company; the men at that time complained of ‘‘ deceitful and unworkmanly
articles.”
25136. Do you say that there is just as much skilled labour in the trade now
as there used to be ?
Except men who have not been taught the trade as thoroughly as 1 hey ought
to be ; and that arises from the subdivision of labour; indentured apprentice-
ship, to a great extent, has gone out.
25137. Do you mean that there are just as good skilled workmen in the trade
now as ever ?
Yes.
25138. But at the same time that there are more unskilled workmen in the
trade now than ever there were ?
I am not sure of that, for there never was a time when they did not make
some common articles ; we do not need to go to Germany for cheap articles.
25139. What are those articles which you are now placing on the table r
They are knives ; I bought them of a little master for the purpose of putting
them before your Lordships to see-
25140. What do you call these ?
They are called dog knives and boys’ pocket knives.
25141. Are these about the cheapest article that is made ?
Yes ; 6 d. a dozen, including material, labour, warehouse work, and all
about it.
25»42. Have you any idea what kind of people buv these knives .-
I should think in country fairs ; some of the cheap-jacks will induce a person
to buy such a knife for one of the children. My experience has always been
that as soon as a lad is able to know what a knife is he wants one. But I think
there is one advantage in them as knives for a youngster to have ; he will not
cut himself. There are another class still (producing some specimens), 6 d. a dozen,
and I think they are marked “ Warranted Sheffield.” Well, they are Sheffield
knives.
25143. What is the “ warranted ” intended to convey ?
I do not know that there is much in that. Adjectives, and such words that
are put on articles I have a great objection to; “superior cutlery” would not
be a recommendation to me at all, rather otlierwise.
25144. What do you call this knife {pointing) r
A boy’s pocket knife ; that is 6 c?. a dozen ; and that {pointing) is the form
of the cast-metal blade. Any Member of the Committee that would like a
knife is quite welcome to them, or any Clerk of the House. The Germans
cannot beat that in price.
25145. Were articles made as cheap as that when you were working at the
trade ?
Yes ; so far back as 1842 I remember that there were scissors made at 2^. Qd.
a gross.
25146. And knives as cheap as these r
Yes.
25147. Although they were all made by hand then?
Yes ; they have many facilities with the introduction of steam power into the
cutlery branch. The cutler used to turn his glazer by his leg. Canning’s
Knife Grinder would have done it the same, 'fhe blades of the common knives
in 1842 would be “ flyed ” not “ forged.”
(11.) 4 K 2
25148. Now,
628
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5 th April 1889 .]
Mr. Wilson.
[ Continued.
•25148. Now, as to these apprentices, have you anything to say about
them ?
To a great extent there are not such a number as there were when I was
apprenticed.
25149. It has been stated before the Committee that the apprentices are not
properly taught all the branches of the trade ?
The division of labour, to some extent, has brought in a number of unskilled
people. I cun only call the man who takes a boy to teach him his trade an
unprincipled person if lie does not teach him ; but for his own gain or profit has
kept the lad to one or two jobs almost constantly, so that when he is out of his
time he could not go and take work at a respectable place.
25150. Because he only knows how to haft the knife, or whatever it
may be r
Yes. He only knows part of the hufting. That is one of the disadvantages
of the subdivision of labour ; but there are advantages on the other side.
25151. What are the advantages ?
Some of these men that could not fetch work out of a respectable ware-
house to do themselves may be able to do one job, and some men would take
such a man to work journeyman work with them, three or four working
together. I am not speaking now of a master, except in the sense that a
witness yesterday, Hukin, was a master. I have been both a master and a
journeyman, and 1 never was more comfortable in my life than when I was
working as a journeyman.
25152. So that the subdivision of labour enables some unskilled hands to
get work who otherwise could not get work at all r
That is so. There is another advantage in the grinding branches of the
trade ; they work more economically as to the matter of wheel-room.
25153. How is that?
Because there are three of them working together. If I was working alone
1 should have to pay a certain amount for wlieel-room and power. If I had
somebody working with me it would be only the same ; and a man is kept more
constantly to one job.
25554. And yet I think I understood you to say a little while ago that this
subdivision of labour had not cheapened the production ?
I daresay it has enabled common knives to be made for less than they would
have been ; I do not think that it has materially affected the price of good
articles.
25 155. Is it the case that there is a great demand to get work on these cheaper
kinds of goods ; that the supply of unskilled labour is larger than the demand ?
We have been passing through a long depressed period of trade in Sheffield,
and probably the price of that class of goods has been brought down lower than
any other ; but I question whether it wwld be wise to give up making them.
25156. What 1 asked you was, whether the supjdy of this cheap labour was
greater than the demand for it?
I should think the supply is great ; but now that trade is improving many of
these men may improve their position materially.
25157. Are many men who are out of work in other trades going into this
trade in the cheaper kind of goods ?
No, because many unskilled trades get better wages than are got in some of
these trades.
25158. We have had it mentioned before the Committee that probably they
did ; agi icultural labourers and others ?
No ; in our old staple trades there are very few agricultural labourers; in fact
an agricultural labourer could not do it.
25159. And the prices are very low of this unskilled labour ?
The prices paid are probably as much as the work is worth.
25160. But
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
G 29
Si'/i .-l/)nn889.] Mr. Wilson. \Contmued.
25160. But I asked whether they were very low?
Very ; the price for grinding those dog blades is 1 s, a gross ; that would be
14 dozen ; the grinders’ dozen is 14 . Those others, “ Warranted Sheffield,” are
\ s. 2 d. Si wross ; that would be 1 c?. a dozen.
25161. What could men earn at that ?
I do not know ; 1 never worked at them ; I should not like it. I should have
had for grinding a pen-blade 3 .9. a gross, grinding only.
25162. The skilled labour, I presume, commands just as good a wage now as
it ever did ?
Not quite ; there are more extras in good cutlery than there were 30 , 40 , or
50 years ago.
25 1 65 . What are extras ?
A shield put on the knife, and some ornamental work about the bolster ; and
they require skill to do it ; and though they do not get as much per dozen
perhaps as they would under the statement, say, of 1810 , yet having to do it
so much more frequently, a man will get more money with doing them at a
lower figure than he would have done years ago when he would get one dozen
perhaps to be done with shields and then v/ork for six months without.
25164. The skilled labour can earn as much now as it ever did ?
My own impression is that now trade has improved a little, the cutlers as a
whole never got better wages than they are doing now ; I mean from the
Saturday point ; that is their point of view.
25165. That is as to the skilled labour?
Yes.
25166. Now as to the unskilled labour, which you have just said is paid
very low, is it paid lower now than it used to be?
No. I knew three blade-knives done at 4 d. and 4 ^ d. a dozen in 1842 ; a
knife called a crasher.
25167. You think its paid about the same as it was?
Yes, I should think it is.
25168. There is a larger demand now, is there not, for cheap goods than there
used to he ?
I should think a less demand.
25169. How do you arrive at that conclusion?
Because the people who make the host knives are those who have been the
best off, and the men have been more regularly employed.
25170. But the question I asked you was whether the demand for cheap
goods is not increasing ?
I am a believer in cheapness ; but low-priced goods are often dear.
25171 I am talking of the monied price put upon the thing ?
I do not think there is as great a demand for them as there was 20 or 30
years ago.
25172. I want to know why you think so ?
Because peofde have been deceived in buying them, like Hodge was in his
razors, they would not shave. If your Lordship bought a knife like that {pointing
1:0 a knife) you would never buy another.
25 I 73. Because the goods are bad, therefore you think the demand must be
less ?
I think they have had their day to a great extent.
25174. Do you know, as a matter of fact, wliether there are not a great many
more of these cheap goods sold than formerly ?
There may he more in number, but if we take the percentage of cutlery sold
it is decidedly less.
( 11 .)
4 K 3
25175. The
630
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE
5 tii April 1889. J Mr W^ilson. ^^Cont.inued
The cheap goods bear a less proportion to the whole than thev did
formerly, on think ?
Yes, a less proportion to the useful ones.
2.5176. How do you know that?
From my general knowh dge of the trade, going about as I have done for
many many years among the workmen of all branches, and perhaps being as
frequently told as anybody what are good things and what are bad, and from what
I have seen i>y visiting almost all the great exhibitions that have taken place.
I have been twice to Paris officially to report on cutlery, and to Vienna in 18 / 3 .
25177. Yes ; but we are not talking of the quality of the goods. I want to
know from you how you know that the demand for tliese cheaper goods is fall-
ing off '
Because tliere are so few of the people employed in making them.
25178. Do you know whether foreign competition affects vour trade at all ?
I certainly believe we have nothing to fear from foreign competition. I was
reading a report last night that I wrote after the French Exhibition of 1867 , and
I have not modified my views in the least upon the subject.
25179. About the hours of work, have you anything to say ; are they
excessive, do you think ?
Not more now than they always have been in bad trade. The grinders
cannot work excessive liours ; the engines only run 54 hours a week. When I
went apprentice the engines ran 66 hours a week and overtime for holidays.
25 1 80. As to the other branches, are the hours of work excessive ?
I do not think those of the cutlers are. I have recently read the report of
Mr. Jellinger Symonds in 1841 , and the hours then were very excessive. I have
read a more recent report from Mr. White who was employed, and he had the
same opinion. 1 believe that on the whole the hours are not as long as they were.
25181. You tnean that they are excessive now, but that they have always
been excessive ?
In bad trade, and in some places, and in making common knives.
25182. Do you think it would be a good thing if the hours were limited in
any way ?
By law, do you mean ?
25183. Yes ?
Certainly not, for men. I should never come to Parliament to ask them to
do a thing for me that 1 could do for myself. The men being piece workers
can give over when they like.
251 84. You think it would be a bad thing to limit the hours ?
I think it would be a bad thing to interfere witli adults.
25185. Do you think it would be a good thing if makers were obliged to put
their names on their goods ?
No ; there are some advantages in it.
.^5186. What would be the advantages in it 1
It would to a great extent prevent men beginning as little masters ; and I
know the disadvantages of little masters as well as anyone; but there were
always some little masters who made a good article and paid a good price, and
in the case ofthose men that would work for some of the London shop-keepers,
the condition on which they would get work would be that they should put the
shopkeepers’ name on. Such little masters as these would be a protection to
the workmen if attempts were made by the larger employers to reduce the rate
of wages.
25187. You mean shopkeepers of London ?
Yes, and persons in Liverpool and other large towns, ironmongers ; and from
my knowledge of cutlery, if I went to any respectable ironmonger in the kingdom
and saw that his knives, razors, and scissors, had his name on, I should expect to
get a good article, far better than anything “warranted good,” or marked
“superior cutlery,” “silver steel,” or anything like that. And under the
system
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
631
5th April 1889.] Mr. Wilson. \_Continued.
system suggested, a man would not get that trade ; he would have no chance of
elevating himself by becoming a master; and many of our big masters at one
time were very little compared to what they are now.
25188 . You mean that if the little masters had to put their names on their
goods the London and Liverpool shops and other places would not buy from them ?
No, thev would not ; that would be one of the conditions.
25189. How coidd they help buying from them if it were compulsory ; where
else would they buy ‘s’
I think they would prefer going to some of the older established houses where
they had a reputation. If your Lordship would look at these {pointing to some
articles) there is a standing advertisement there without putting anything in the
paper. They are blades that have been worn and sent to be replaced.
25190. Do you think it does no harm to the trade generally of JSheflield that
very inferior articles go out to the world with merely “ Sheffield ” on them, or
“ Warranted Sheffield,” and so on ?
1 think so far as any persons buying them goes, they are deceived ; but I do
not think they will come again. I think there has been more harm done by
some of our Sheffield houses sending out German things. They may say they
have sent them out as German. 1 have my own opinion about that.
25191. Do you think that is done now r
I think not so much since the passing of the Trades Marks Act, I have a
knife here I bought in Dresden. It is what we call a Norfolk knife. On one
blade it is marked the real IXL knife. This is the corpoiate mark of George
Wasttenholm & Sons, and on the tang of the same blade is the name Rodgers,
Cutlers to Her Majesty.
25192. I suppose there is great competition among the masters, is there not?
There is great competition both among masters and men ; hut that is no evil
in my opinion.
25193. The competition among the masters is great ?
Yes, and among the men too.
25194. Do you know whether the competition among the masters has led to
the production of a cheap at tit le, at the sacrifice of (juality for the sake of
cheapness ?
Yes, some have produced such articles. On the other hand the competition
of masters for men has raised wages. I believe in competition.
25195. Earl of Derby. ~\ Do you say that there has been a consideralile
increase in the sub-division of labour of late years ?
Yes.
25396. And did 1 understand you to say that the effect of that sub-division
was to put the working man more in the power of the employer, because he
could only do one thing, and if that failed him he could not take to another
I think it would hardly be the employer that would operate upon him ,
because, except L^r common things no manufacturer would emj)loy him, because
he could not do the work.
25197. He could only do one particular thing that he was accustomed to ?
Yes.
25198. I gather from the evidence which you have given, that on the whole
you do not think that the condition of working men in this trade is getting
worse than it was ?
Oh, no.
25199. think on the whole it is improving
I believe the workmen as a whole in Sheffield were never better fed, better
clothed, or better housed than they are at present ; and that is exemplified by
an improved death-rate more than anything else.
25200, Chairman.^ Some of the trades are conducted under more wholesome
conditions, are they not, than they used to be ?
(11.) 4 K 4 I think
632
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN P.EFORE THE
5th Apr il 1889.] Mr. Wilson. [Continued.
I think the laroer respectable houses conduct their business as a whole on
very proper principles.
2.5201. But are not the trades obliged to be carried on under more wholesome
conditions ; has there not been an interference by laws with them ?
The passing of the Factory Act to some extent did interfere with them ; but
I do not think it has ever done much for Sheffield. I have seen Mr. Redgrave
and a number of'inspectors, but even when I was working it never made the
slightest difference to me.
25202. Is there anything you wmuld like to add?
I should like to add this, that I think our manufacturers, many of them,
were very much to blame for the steps they took some years ago vvheu trade
was good to counteract the strike ; or there were two strikes, I think, among
the scissor grinders, and I think the second strike was an unwise one ; they
l)egan praising up German goods, German scissors.
25023. The manufacturers did, you mean ?
Yes ; and they did it too persistently, till people were led to believe that
there was some superiority in German goods, and hence German hollow razors
were quite the rage. I am very glad some people, some of our manufacturers,
have a little regard to the reputation of Sheffield. I have a razor here ; it is
“ Johnson’s genuine Sheffield ground ” {’producing it). I feel proud of a towms-
man that will put his name on. We talk about the Hamburg ring ; that is
what they they call the Hamburg ring [producing a ringing sound). They
thought we could not grind them in Sheffield. Now if there are any of your
Lordships that shave, and has confidence in being a good shaver, he is
w'elcome to the razor as a memento of Sheffield. If you will examine the blade
you will see the difference. It is what they call extra hollow ; and in my
opinion, Sheffield stands well in this work. I have a pair of scissors here. Now
I should not want to look at them to see whether they were good ones ; I can
tell by the feel ; a pair of scissois does not cut with a sharp edge like a razor,
but it is exemplified in an old political song : —
Pitt, and Fox, his learned brother,
Sally forth with speeches keen ;
Like shears they ne’er clip one another,
But clip all else that comes between.”
Sometimes you find that scissors or shears are set too much on the edge ; one
blade will cut the other ; but the beauty of a pair of scissors is that nothing can
get between them. If the noble Chairman will just try this, and take it by the
feel (though of course 1 cannot expect that your touch is like mine), I think
he will see what I mean. Our Sheffield grinding, if I were asked to define it,
I should say, is educated touch.
25204. We have had no evidence that Sheffield has deteriorated in any way
in the quality of the goods it can produce ?
If you will just try them you will feel how the one edge works smoothly
against the other.
25205. Lord SandMirst.'] What is the price of the hollow razor?
That is about 4 s. ; it can be bought for 4 s. in Sheffield.
25206. And the price of these scissors ?
They are what are called hard-polished, and the price of them probably
would be 2 s., or perhaps a little more than that. They would give great
satisfaction to the people who used them.
25207. Chairman^ Could you give the Committee the value of the laboui'
employed on the razor ?
So far as the grinding, I dare say the price of the blade in grinding would
be, on one like that, 13 , 9 . a dozen.
25208. Is that 12, or 14 to a dozen ?
I am not sure as to the razor; I know in my own trade it was always 14 to
the dozen.
25209. That
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
C33
5M April 1889.]
Mr. Wilson.
[ Continued.
25209. That would be the grinding; what would be the forging ?
The forging would be somewhat less than tlnit; and then the liafting and
setting is not much; then there is warehouse room and profit.
25210. And of the scissors, what would the labour be ?
The scissor grinders about 1872 or 18/3 got a considerable advance. I think
it arose by rigidly re.stricting the number of workmen ; it had nut been a
growing trade; and at present tliey are very well employed in the scissor trade.
Since the Trade-Marks Act passed I should think there is hardly a scissor
forger who can work that is not very well employed.
25211. What would be the value of the labour in the scissors?
It depends a great deal upon the quality of the wmrk.
25212, 1 mean in the pair you produced ?
I do not know what they would be a dozen ; but common work used to be
glazed work, not polished ; but during late years common polishing has come
in, and they are nothing like that. This (pointing) would be a much cheaper
scissor. If your Lordship will just compare the polish on the one with the
otlier you will see the difference ; but still you will find that it would clip
anything that comes between it.
25213. Did you say that the scissor grinders had rigidly limited the labour
in the trade ?
Yes.
2521 The trades union, you mean ?
Yes.
25215. And; consequently, they are earning good wages?
They are doing better now, because they have knocked the Germans, I think,
somewhat on the head. If the men act wisely I think they will be chary of
going in for great advances ; and the same with the forgers ; because
machinery is being introduced for the production of scissors. That (]producing
it) is cut out to begin with by a fly as the first rudiment of a pair of scissors;
the next step is to stamp it, which puts it very much in the form of a blade.
25216. Duke of Norfolk.~\ You said that in 186 / you wrote a report bring-
ing out the fact that you did not think Sheffield had anything to fear from
foreign competition ?
Yes.
25217. And that your experience since then has confirmed that opinion?
Yes.
25218. Would that apply merely to the importation of foreign goods into
England, or would you say that there was no tendency to check the exportation
of Sheffield goods owing to foreign competition ?
I do not think there is a large amount of cutlery and hardware brought into
the kingdom, and if our Sheffield manufacturers give over sending those articles
out, or leading people to imagine tliat they are of Sheffield manufacture, there
would not be much of German goods coming in.
25219. What I mean is, does not what is manufactured in foreign countries
comjiete with Sheffield goods in the direction of preventing Sheffield exporting
its goods to foreign parts ?
So far as people elsewhere are deceived that may be the result. If your
Lordship will examine that (prodncinq a knife) ; that is a French knife, and you
will see how the blades are rolled, instead of being really ground as they ought
to be. Take the contrast with that knife (i)ointing to another knife), and see the
difference. These (producing .some pocket knives) are good specimens of Shef-
field cutlery ; they are manufactured by Joseph Rodgers & Sons.
25220. Chairman.'] 1 understand that you are not at all afraid of foreign
competition with Sheffield goods, on account of the superiority of Sheffield
work ?
I quite believe we can hold our own against all the world.
(11.) 4L
25221. Duke
634
minutes of evidence taken before the
6th April 1889.] Mr. Wilson. IContinued.
25221. Duke of Norfolk.'] Would you sav that you do hold your own against
all the would ?
Yes.
25222. Including America ?
Yes. I do not think there have been as many American orders brought to
Sheffield for cutlery for a long time as are in the town now. There was a para-
graph in the papers the other day stating that some house had sent an order for
3,000 dozen of table cutlery for the Full man cars or the dining saloons on the
railways. lam quite conversant with what Air.erican cutlery is.
25223. Chairman.] I do not think we need trouble you to show us any more
specimens of knives, unless there is any particular point to be explained ?
No; but if people wish to hare a knife fur use they have to pay the price for
it now, as they always had. There {])roducing a knije) is a nice knife for a
lad.
2522-j. Lord Thring.] What is the price of “a nice knife”?
That one, about IQ d. I brought these to show that when people talk about
the making of a good article we continue to make a good one ; and I believe
we are on the eve of better things, because wm are emerging from the depressed
trade u Inch has existed for so long a time ; and 1 know, as a matter of fact,
that several of our leading manufacturers, without any strike at all, have lately
raised the rate of wages among their workmen.
25225. Chairma 7 i.~\ Times are a great deal better now than they have been,
for some time ?
I was rather surprised to read some evidence that was given yesterday.
25226. By whom ?
Mr. Uttley, who is a member of our town council, and Mr. Hukin; because
I have got a few advertisements from our Sheffield papers.
25227. What is the evidence you allude to ?
They talk about wnges being down, and Mr. Uttley especially named table-
blade grindeis as being a badly paid trade. Here is an advertisement:
“ Wanted, two .steady men to grind and glaze best work. Apply Chas. E.
Croydon, at Haywood’s, Pond-street.” Mow I know Croydon, and that would
be in the table knife trade, I know. And then there is another : “Wanted, two
file cuttei s for flat and rough work, smooth and bastard and so on. But all
these are advertisements of men Avanted : “ Wanted, single hand file forger.”
“Wanted, cutlers to set-in one and two blade pocket knives.” “W^anted,
cutlers to make pocket and two-ended knives, good workmen, in-workeis.
Apply, Jonathan Ciookes & Sun.” Now Jonathan Crookes & Son is an old
and respectable firm. There is another which is indicative of our Sheffield
trade : “ Wanted, spring-knife cutlers, also little mastei s. Apply “ So-and-so,
York-street, or Bakers-hill.” Now the very fact that these men are wanting
W’orkmen proves, I think, that the workmen have it in their hands to get a
better ))rice.
25228. Is there anything more you wish to say as to the evidence that has
been given ?
As one of the noble Lords asked Avhat my opinion was about how we stood,
(and, as, I say, I have not modified my opinion at all), if yon would just allow me,
1 will read the conclusion of my re|)ort. 1 reported for the Society of Arts. I
was specially sent by the Society of Ai ts to the Paris Exhibition of 186/ to
report on cutlery.
25229. You want to read the conclusion?
Y(S. “The conclusions I have drawn as to the relative position of
England and otlnr countries in the manufacture of cutlery are as follows:
We possess, first, superior natural advantages, more especially good grind-
stones, and a cheaper supply of coal and steel ; second, abundant capital,
which jiromotes economical production by the concentration of machinery
in.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
63.5
5th April Mr. Wilson. {^Conthmed.
in large establishments, and allows a better division of labour ; third, the
extensive commercial relations of England give us the best markets for su])plying
ourselves with raw materials. This will be seen from the fact of our Sheffield
steel-makers having a monopoly of the best Swedish brands for converting into
steel. As, for example, the celebrated brand, Hoop L., can only be obtained
through Messrs. William Jessop and Sons, whose experience as steel makers
goes back to the last century. The veiy foundation of excellence in cutlery is
good steel, and in this at present we stand unrivalled. These are advantages of
no mean character ; and in the adaption of them to the specific object of this
inquiry, we po.=sess skill and industry unsurpassed. If the progress made by
other countries seems greater than our own, it is because in the manufacture of
cutlerv we are much nearer perfection, and therefore it is impossible that
our progress should be as marked as those emerging from a rude state of
manufacturing. by the ajiplication of capital and skill we have won
our position, and by the same means we must maintain it. But it is
desirable that capital and labour should wmrk more harmoniously together
than heietofore. Altliough the progress of France has been remarkable, as
shown by increasing of exports and imports, their trade with foreign countries
being seven-fold greater in 1866 than it was in 1825, yet cutlery and hardware
are not amongst the items of increase. In these branches England has no cause
to despair. The annual value of French cutlery is about 20,000,000 francs
(800,000^.) Nearly all this is retained for home consumption; while England,
besides supplying her own wants, exports above 3,000,000 1 : of cutlery and
hardware. In concluding this report let me ask, will the cutlery trade leave
this country ? I believe not. If the cost of labour increases here, the material
prosperity of other countries will bring about the same result. It has been
shown that wages in France have greatly advanced.” (I give that in my
report). “Now the normal law of industry is that cost of production increases
the price of commodities. In this respect England will not be in a worse con-
dition than her comp/etifors. Motives of patriotism should cause every Briton
to cherish the interests of his native land. To secure these interests, labour and
skill must not undervalue capital as an element of production; each has its
rights and its duties. The diffusion of economic knowledge will cause these to be
respected. In order to maintain our reputation and position as ‘the workshops of
the w'orld,’ cajntal and labour must work harmoniously together, and when
this desirable consummation arrives, I have no fear of the result. England
at present occupies a proud ])osiiion, and the combinations of british enterprise,
capital, and industry will maintain our manufacturing supremacy against all the
•world.” I have not a word to modify in that. There is another more hopeful
thing for the future. A few years ago those disgraceful outrages that took place
at different times were always attributed to Sheffield, as springing from Sheffield.
I allude to sending pop-bottles full of powder through the chamber windows, and
all that; and 1 remember that the Edinburgh Review writer, writing about one
in the Black Country, said, ‘‘There is a touch of Sheffield in this ” ; and 1 was
ashamed of them, because nearly all the outrages occurred in the grinding
branches, and I would not be a party to them. Hence 1 withdrew from the
union of my own trade about 1846, and never joined it again afterwards.
2,5230. What do you wish to prove to the Committee?
That during the last few year.s no place, no industrial centre, in England, has
been freer from outrage than Sheffield, and in no place are the relationships
between masters and workmen more satisfactory. I was surprised at one thing
in the evidence yesterday ; a witness described Howard as a good workman.
25231. I asked you just now if you had anything further to say about the
evidence, and you said. No ; have you anything further you wish to say about
the evidence ?
No, except this, that there are a great number of men in the trade that do
not know what good work is ; who never saw good w'ork.
25232. In your opinion Howard was not a good workman ?
No ; and he was a poor emaciated man.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
4 L 2
( 11 .)
636
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th April 1889.
Mb. WILLIAM JOHN DAVIS, is called in ; and. having been sworn,
is Examined, as follows ;
25233- Chairman. Are you an Inspector under the Factory Act ?
Yes, in Sheffield.
25234. What is your district ; is it the town of Sheffield ?
Yes ; and it extends from Clay Cross in the south to Grimsby in the east ; it
goes to Barnsley in the north, and includes some part of Nottinghamshire and
a great portion of Lincolnshire.
25235. How long have you been an inspector ?
I have been an inspector of factories in Sheffield for six years.
2r)‘2^6. What assistance have you got?
There are two inspectors in Sheffield. Captain Smith is senior inspector, and
I have been there since he was appointed ; there are two inspectors for this
radius or district.
25237. Then is Captain Smith the senior, and are you the junior inspector ?
Yes.
25238. And have you any assistance besides that ?
None.
25239. Have you made inquiries into the condition of the trades in Sheffield
lately ?
I have made very careful inquiry, both from the workmen, and in some cases
from the manufacturers, as to the existence of sweating in the Sheffield
trades?
25240. What trades ?
The spring-knife cutlery trade, table-knife hafting, table-blade grinding, pen
and pocket-blade grinding, and file-cutting, and some other trades ; those are
the principal.
25241. Can you tell me how many factories there are in Sheffield ?
In Sheffield itself?
25242. A good deal of this work is carried on just outside Siieffield, is it
not ?
Perhaps your Lordship will let me explain the system. It differs somewhat
in Sheffield from other large towns. They probably have a thousand manu-
facturers wlio have motive power, more tlian a thousand ; but there are a large
number of tenants who have power within these works, or wheels, as they are
called ; and tliere are very many thousands of manufacturers in Sheffield.
25243. But then a number of them work on the same premises r
They work on the same premises ; probably in some of the larger wheels
there will be as many as 50 separate tenants.
25244. How many of these premises would there be; what do you call
them, factories ; or how do you describe them?
Works or wheels ; they are known as wheels in Sheffield.
25245. How many of them would there be ?
Public wheels where they let out power, I should think 300 or 400.
25246. Then there would be the out- workers ?
There are many thousands of them.
25247. Do they come under you?
They come under our jurisdiction.
25248. Is most of the work carried on under circumstances that bring it
under your Jurisdiction ?
Yes.
25249. Does
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
637
bth April 1889.J
Mr. Davis.
[ Continued,
2,'] 249. Does it all come under yonr jurisdiction ?
In these factories, certainly, because tiiere is motive power, and this con-
stitutes a factory, within the meaning of the Act.
2.5250. But I mean these out-workers ?
The out-working system does not altogether come under our control ; where
men only are employed they are not directly under the Act ?
2.5251. Is any woik done in the peoples own houses ?
Yes ; much work is done in private houses.
25252. With that you would have nothing to do r
With that we have very little to do unless we ascertain that there is a child or
a young person or a woman employed.
25253. Could you interfere with a man and his wife working in their own
rooms ?
Under the Domestic Workshops Clauses we could enter and ask questions ;
but I do not think we can do more than that.
25254. In the first place, what have you to say about the sanitary condition
of these wheels. By tlic way, what do you call the shops that the outworkers
work in r
We call them outworkers simply ; they may work in their own home, or thev
may rent a little shop to work in. In the case of a file-cutter, a number of
iile-cutters take stocks ; that is, standing or sitting room, in one shop.
25255. What have you to say as to the sanitary condition of these wheels and
shops ?
The sanitary condition of workshops and factories in Sheffield is generally
very good.
25256. Does the system of sub-contracting exist in all these trades ?
According to your Lordship’s definition of sweating, no.
25257. We have never defined sweating?
Well, someone has defined it for you.
25258. That may be; but what is your definition ?
My definition of sweating is, any system by which pressure is used by a manu-
facturer or a buyer, and which compels the workmen to work at a starvation
price, is sweating.
25250. Do you say that the sub-contracting does not exist at all in the
Sheffield trade ?
Not to any great extent.
25260. To what extent, and w'hat does it consist of?
1 find a workman will be called a little master, and he will take the blades
and the scales, and all the material, except wire, to a shop ; he will then employ
seven or eight men day-v/ork ; he pays for his shop-rent, his mill-power, and for
his tools, and what material he requires to work up this material into knives ;
but he pa\ s his men, all but himself, day-work, not piece-work. I have found
one or two cases where the men under the first man are piece-work ; but
generally speaking, the former case holds good ; there is one piece-man, and
four or five day-workers under him.
25261. How does he dispose of his goods ?
Sometimes he takes them to a manufacturer and sells them ; that is, he has
this work given out to him by a manufacturer, and in other cases by a merchant,
or else a very small factor.
25262. Then he would be a middleman only to the extent that he might take
some of the orders from the larger manufacturer that he had received from the
merchant :
I do not look upon him as a middleman ; I look upon him as a workman.
( 11 .)
25263. And
4 L 3
(538
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th April 1889. ]j Mr. Davis. \_Continutd-
25263. And the same may be said of the out-workers r
Exactly ; they are all producers ; the first man who takes the work out works
himself.
25264. Is there no factor or middleman of any kind who is not a producer?
Not in these shops that I am speaking of now.
25265. But is there at all?
Many.
25266. What do you call them ?
There are middlemen in Sheffield.
25267. Just explain ihai';, will you ?
We will commence with a lar^e manufacturer. He will both manufacture
goods in his own works, and he will have a large number of out-workers who
work for him or for any one else in the town of Sheffield ; he will employ them
under both systems, by giving out material to them to makeup, or by purchasing
the goods out and out ; so many knives at so much a gross. Another man who
calls himself a manufacturer, who is a middleman, does not work at all ; he has
only a warehouse, he does not get up woi’k in his place, but simply buys over
the counter from any one ; he has a number of oul-workers who recognise that
they can have work from him if they can do it at the price. Then we have a
number of merchants in the town who do the same thing ; we also have a
number of small manufacturers who do a little themselves, and a number
of out-workers. It is a very complicated arrangement ; but that is the system
which exists.
25268. They all call themselves manufacturers, whether they really manu-
facture or not?
They all call themselves manufacturers, whether they make or not.
25269. Have you made any inquiries as to the prices and the rate of wages ?
I have made full inquiry so far as the pen and pocket blade grinding is con-
cerned, and file-cutting, spring-knife cutlery, and table-knife halting.
25270. Have you the tables there ?
I have a table here which I can put in in evidence {.producmg it).
25271. I see that you give all the people’s names here; have they any
objection to that ?
I think not.
25272, These tables give the workmen’s names, their gross earnings, how
many hours a week they work, and what they have to pay, whether they employ
underhand labour, and what their nett earnings are, and so on, and the sanitary
condition of the places they work in ?
Yes.
25273. How did you get these figures ?
This is from the actual evidence taken by myself from the men.
25274. From what they told you ?
From what they told me.
25275. As to the sanitary condition, is it the men’s opinion that it is good,
mean when “ good is written down in the column, is that the opinion ol the
occupier ?
In these cases. {The Tables are handed in, vide Ap2>endix.)
25276. Have you drawn any general conclusion from these tables :
Yes.
25277 What is it?
I made a special report upon them. May I be permitted to read that
report ?
25278. You can read anything of your own in answer to the question I asked
you ?
“ A special
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
639
5th April 1889.] Mr. Davis. [^Continued.
“ A special report on the extent to which sweatings exists, and the conditions
under which labour is employed in Sheffield.”
25279. Take the trade you have mentioned, and these tables of prices. I ask
you whether you have come to any conclusion from those tables of wages ?
This is my opinion upon the tables produced.
252S0. Will you quote from your report what refers to these tables?
“ Table-knife hafting is a very extensive branch of industry, and as knives of
all qualities are made, the prices vary in a great degree. The work is done by
piece-workers, who are generally out-workers, or rent power from the rnanu-
factucturer from whom they obtain employment. Table C. shows that some of
these outworkers only earn about 14 s. per week. From the fact that a large
number of workmen earning low wages are employed by middlemen or small
factors, I am of opinion that there is much sweating in this trade. The case
of Mr. Bell is instructive. This out-worker employs two women and two young
persons.”
25281. What do you mean by a “small factor” ?
A man who purchases from the small out- workers any knives that they wish
to bring and to sell.
25282. And does not manufacture at all himself?
And does not manufacture at all himself.
25283. But sells to the trade ?
Yes. “This out-worker employes two women and two young persons,
pays rent, and finds working materials to the extent of 12 5. Sd. per week,
and by making overtime every night can only earn, when he has a good
week, W. 4 s. 7 d. This man is a sweater ; but unlike the middleman he is a
producer, as he works hard himself, and, considering his responsibilities, gets low
wages.” That is a man who is an employer, and his wages are but \. 1 . A s. 7 d.
when he works a great number of hours. “ The case of Cole & Son, Table C,
where the nett earnings between the two men is only 1 /. 3 .9.M d., is not, I fear,
by any means an isolated case. I visited these out-workers on several occasions
before I took their evidence for their Lordships’ Commission, and have requested
that they should fix, to takeaway bone-dust, which is highly injurious to health.
At each visit they have pleaded poverty, and have informed me that their
average earnings were but about 12 s. per week.”
25284. I suppose you had no means of verifying these statements, had you ?
Every means.
25285. How was that done?
In the ca'^e of Cole & Son, they produced the book to show me what they
had paid for their material per week, and the rent ; and on several occasions
they have asked me to see Messrs. Atkinson, for whom they worked, to verify the
statement as to their earnings. A fau to take away the dust would cost from
35 5 . to 3 /. 10 5., and it is required for the health of the workers, and their
defence is. We are getting 12 5. a week, and we cannot afford to do it. I have
gone to the firm for whom they work to ask if their earnings were so low, and,
on one occasion, some two or three years ago, I ivas assured by the firm tliat it
was so.
25286. I suppose I may take it that all these statements you made as to
earnings, and so on, you have verified to the best of your ability ?
To the best of my ability. “ Spring-knife cutlers. This branch of the
cutlery trade is perhaps the greatest of any. The ramification of the out-worker
is general throughout the town, extending into eveiT hamlet within a radius of
four miles of the Sheffield 'I'own Flail, and, in some directions, even beyond.
Competition between the manufacturers, factors, or middlemen, and the out-
workers is excessive. The working hours are exceptionally long in the case of
unprotected labour. It will be seen by Table B., that men are labouring from
6 am. to 10 p.m. for 15 5. Many are married men, without families.
Where the out-workers take the material home, the conditions are not improved,
(11.) 4^4 as
640
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th April 1889.]
Mr. Davis.
[ Continued.
as will be seen by the evidence taken at a meeting of spring knife cutlers held
at Wadsley. In this village there are many out workers who are working 60
hours per week for 10 5 . or 12 .?., and who make no allowance in the stated
number of hours for the time lost in going to and from Sheffield for work.”
25287 . How far is Wadsley from Sheffield ?
Wadsley itself is a large district; but by the tramroad from Hillsborough,
which is at the foot of Wadsley, I should think it would be two-and-a-half miles
from Sheffield. “ These out- workers are employed in some cases by respectable
firms who are compelled to resort to low prices, because the middlemen have
ground the workmen to such a condition that a slight consideration above the
sweaters’ prices commands the labour. At the meeting reierred to a w’ork-
man gave the Ibllowing comparative statement. Tiie prices for “ Jack Tar ”
white bone knives was, he said, in 18/4 : —
The prices, 1 889 —
3
inches
9 .?.
per gross
of 144.
31
35
10 5 .
9>
33
11
3^
59
11 5 .
53
59
31
3£
33
12 5 .
33
33
19
4
33
13 5 .
33
33
39
3
inches
5 5 .
per gross of 168.
0 1
,»4
33
5 5 .
6 d.
93
33 33
3.1
33
65 .
33
9' 53
3f
S3
6 5 .
Gd.
13
33 39
4
33
7 s.
13
33 13
Thus, in 1874, five gross of knives would realise in wages the sum of 2l. 1.5 s.
In 1889, five gross ten dozen have to be made for 1 /. 10 .?.; showing, with an
increase of work of 1/ per cent., a reduction of 47 per cent, in piices.”
25288 . What is this meeting you refer to ?
A meeting of the spring-knife cutlers ; about 120 were present, and this state-
ment was made at the meeting.
25289 . And that you believe to be correct r
I should think so, because I cautioned the men not to make statements
which could be proved to he erroneous. I said that it would damage their
cause, and that they had better understate than overstate it. “ Tlie gradual
method by which the sweater has brought the price.® to the present
minimum rate was thus described by one of the speakers at the meet-
ing. When work is taken in and more asked for, you are informed
that there are no orders, but \ou can call again the ne.xt day. 'J’he
next day work is again refused on the plea that there is not
an order in the place, and that other sweaters are getting them done for
less. The out- worker is allowed to go away empt} -handed, and with much
indifference on the part of the sw’eater, the mechanic is led to understand that
he can call again or not, just as he likes. On again presenting himself for work
the same answer is given, but if he (the out-worker) cares to take three gross
at 1 s. per gross less, he can have them a.s stock. In the meantime the out-
worker has applied to other sweaters with no good result; and the out-worker,
pressed for rent and household necessaries, goes back to the warehouse and
takes the knives at the reduction. The work is taken in and more accepted at
the price. After this is done tl;e same sweating process is recommenced, v\ith
additional pressure, such as ‘ The Germans are getting all our orders ; we are
going to the Bankruptcy Court ; other firms are cutting us out ; you must work
longer hours,’ and producing and reading letters said to be from customers,
with the headings turned down, saying they are buying a certain article at a
price quoted, and if they will accept an order at that figure they can send on
20 gross ; and in this systematic way, said the speaker, have the prices been
reduced to what they now are.” That is, so far as the spring-knife cutlers are
concerned ; and I have visited many parts of Sheffield to test whether it is a
fact that spring-knife cutlers earn such small wages, and whether they work
long
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
641
5th April 1889 .] Mr. Davis. \_Continued.
long hours. I have been early in the morning, and I have found the men at
work, the same men that I have seen before.
25290. What do you mean by “ early in the morning ” ?
Six o’clock in the morning. I have been late at night, ten o’clock, and after
ten o’clock, and 1 found the same men at work. I have taken their statement
as to the ju’ices they received for the articles, ’now many they can do in a
week, in such a week when they worked these large numbers of hours, and I
have been assured, in the presence of other workmen (six, eight, and ten, up to
twenty men) that when they have worked the whole of these hours they can
only earn 14 j>’. to 15 s. per week.
25291. That would be nett earnings, I suppose ?
That would be nett earnings. I was informed when the inquiry was first
begun that somiS of these would be indifferent workmen, that some of them
would only work upon the very commonest trash that was made in Sheffield,
and that some of them would be drunken, and therefore it would be wrong to
consider that this was a typical illustration of the condition of things in
Sheffield. I must confess, after examining some of the work which these men
do, and the long hours which they pass in work, that the spiing-knife cutlery
trade in Sheffield is badly paid, and tliat that is brought about by excessive
competition, and by what is known as sweating?
25292. l)o you mean competition among the manufacturers ?
And among the men; the outworkers, the men, and the manufacturers.
There is a knife here that is made by a father and his son ; made and supplied
to a very respectable house in the town of Sheffield for 6^ cl. {exhibithi^ it), an
ivory scale, a well-ground blade, and very well put in, and with the shield in it
that A'Jr. Wilson spoke about, and is a good knife.
25293. Do you know what the selling price of that knife is ?
I have made no inquiries.
25294. Duke of NorfolJi.~\ Do you mean the manufacturer gets 6^ d. for it?
The man who makes it ; father and son work together, and when they have
made a knife like this they cannot earn 15 s. in a week of /O hours.
25295. Chairman.^ By makes” you mean puts together?
Me buys the scales, the inner scales and the springs ; pays for the grinding
of these blades, buys everything, and takes it in for 6^ d., wrapped in paper ready
for sale.
25296. Do you know what tiiat is called ?
Mr. Wilson tells me it is called a straight shadow two-blade. Your Lordship
will notice that it is an ivory scale, which is of considerable importance in
Sheffield, because ivory is so very dear.
25297. You were speaking, I think, of the spring-knives ?
Yes. I said that I had been early in the morning and late at night to test
whether the statements of the men as to the very long hours they made were
strictly accurate; and late at night I took some evidence. “Evidence taken by
Mr. W. J. Davis, H. M. Inspector of Factories, Sheffield, on 7th March 1889 .”
This evidence was taken in the presence of six other workmen. “Thomas Bell
said, I am a spring-knife cutler.”
28298. These people have no objection to having their names known ?
Not at all, not that I know of. There are so many of them iu Sheffield, and
the condition is so well known, and there is quite a freedom with the people;
there is no coercion or tyrannv ; they can work for whom they please. “ I am
a spring-knife cutler. My hours of work are : — Monday, from 9 a.m. to 8 p.m. ;
Tuesday, j'rorn 6.30 a.m. to 9.30 p.m. ; Wednesday, from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. ;
Thursday, from 6 a.m. to 10 pm.; Friday, from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. ; Saturday,
from 5 a.m. to 2 p.m. Meal-time, for breakfast, dinner, and tea, about one hour
each day.”
28299. An hour altogether ?
An hour altogether. Some of them work as they take their meals. “If I
(11.) 4 M have
642
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5M 1889.] Mr. Davis. {Continued.
have plenty of work and make tliese hours, I can earn 17 s. per week. Out of
this I have to pay for my side ” (that is the rent of rooms and power, what they
call their side), “ gas, materials, and files, the sum of 2^. 6 me of the men are getting better prices.
2535.3- J suppose we may take it that in your opinion the lower the price of
goon's the lower the earnings of the men engaged upon them, and on a better
class of goods they have better prices ?
Yes, generally speaking ; it is not so in all cases, because I have given you a
sample of a knife that a father and a son make, both of them being men, at a
very low price.
25354. You spoke just now about respectable firms being compelled to lower
prices by sweaters; what do you mean by that?
firm in Sheffitdd, a very respectable firm, asked me to eall upon them a short
time ago, and said, “ Well now, what are we to do ? We used to give so much
for this knife, and we were anxious to continue to give the price for the knife,
because it is honestly worth if, and the men could earn no more than they
deserved, but it came to our ears that this knife w^as being made at considerably
less, and made for a sweater.”
25355. What did they mean by a ‘‘ sweater ” in that case t
This was a manufacturer speaking to me who made work on his own place
under the same system as 1 have described ; and he complained erior one ; the Sheffield firms stand out alone ; 1 think they
can defy the world both in the good and in the common class of goods.
25358. But if this out-working were done away with, and the competition were
reduced, and better prices were paid, the result would be dearer production,
would it not ?
1 should think the result would be altogether favourable to the Sheffield
manufacturer and to the Sheffield mechanic ; I do not think it would affect the
selling price very much, or if it did affect it, not to the extent that we should be
harmed by foreign competition ?
( 11 .)
25359. That
650
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th April J889.] Mr. Davis. ^Continued.
- 5359 - That is what 1 want to gift from you ; whether, in your opinion, if
the cunditioii of the |)eople were improved in the matter of w.iges it would not
increase the selling price of the article, the cost of production, to an extent
which niiiihtmake it impossible to compete with foreign producers?
No. Of course, in my opinion, we have no right lo ask a man to work 16
hours a day it he can only earn 14 s. per week after working 80 hours per week ;
but it will fake a great deal, a big increase, to make the maiket in such a con-
dition that the foreigner can best you. The prices are so abnormally low, and
the earnings and the long hours of \^orka^e such that foreigners could not touch
you if you were to give 50 percent, more on the labour, with a reduction on the
hours.
25360. The difference must come from somewhere; if \ ou increase the
earning' of labour 20 per cent, or 25 per cent., or whatever it may be, either
that must go on the C'»st of the article, or it must come out of somebody’s profit;
which would it do in your opinion ?
It would come out of the consumer’s pocket.
25361. It would increase the cost of the article, in fact ?
I do not know that it would increase the cost of the article.
253t'2. Then it would not come out of the consumer’s pocket?
No, in that case it does not ; generally speaking, a rise in price does come out
of the consumer’s pocket.
25363. In this case you think it v ould come out of the pocket of tho^e whom
you have classed as sweaters ?
Yes, 1 think it could come out of the profits, some profits, whether it is the
retailers or the wholesalers. For instance, take the knife that your Lordship
has before you ; 6^ d. is the cost of that for labour and for material ; half that
would be for labour ; if you increase that 50 per cent you only increase the price
of the knife bv \\ d., making itSr/. ; probably that knife is sold retail for
1 ,y. 6 d., according to the position of the shopman who sells it.
25364. You were just now speaking incidentally of the habits of the work-
men ; you were speaking of the length of the hours they work, and so on ; but
you did not give any opinion about their habits ; you said it might be supposed
that these men who worked for low wages were idle or drunken, but I think
you did not go on to say vAdiat your opinion w'as ?
I simply went on to say that my evidence did not show^ that they were
di unken or idle, or that they were inferior workmen. Afy evidence goes to
show that they are a very steady body of men. I hav’ehad many a pleasant chat
w'ith spi ing-knife cutlers and file-cutters, and they are ready to talk on social ques-
tions, |H)litics, or anything for a moment or two, and generally have an opinion.
To call them, as a class, steady, I think it is right to do ; to call them idle
oi‘ intemperate would be very^ wrong ; and comparing them in their habits with
the habits of workmen and work v\ omen of other towns of which I have intimate
knowledge, 1 think they compare very favourably indeed.
25365. Have you had many prosecutions since you have been in Sheffield?
Not uiany prosecutions.
25366. Do you think the Factory Act is satisfactorily observed?
^ es ; we have prosecutions against those who are the most privileged under
the Act generally.
25367. For instance ?
The millinery and the dressmakers. They are permitted by Act of Parlia-
ment to work 14 hours a flay on some days of the year; the people who are
allowed the longest hours to work by Act of Parliament, in my experience,
are the people who evade the Act, and want to work longer still.
25368. But in these trades you have been speaking of you have not had
many prosecutions ?
No because it is not a great town for female employment, for one reason.
25369. Then
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
(i 51
bth April 1889. J
Mr. Davis.
[ Continnetl.
25309. Tli( n you think the Fat tory and U orksliops Act as it slands, as far as
these trad s are coiicemed, is sufficient ."
No, I do not.
25370. Wliat would you suggest?
If you ask me what I shouht suggest, I understand that your Lordship is now
asking for a remedy.
25371. I should have understood from what you said that you thought the
existing Act was sufficient as far as these trades are concerned-
It is sufficient for the control of labour within these workshops and factories
certainh'.
25372. And in what direction and for what objects do you think it should
be amended r
With respect to these trades I do not think there is any amendment required
so far as the protection of labour is concerned, or those that the Act deals with,
because no women can work these hours or young persons.
27373. Do \ ou knovv what effect tlie introduction of machinery has had on
prices ?
It has had the sane effect as it has in most towns; it has tended to reduce
wages, and has reduced wages and always will.
25374. I suppose it has tended also to give more employment, has it not ?
In so.uie cases, not in all.
25375. Have you any suggestions to make to the Committee as to possible
remedies ?
My opinion is that we do protect men by Act of Parliament. If a man goes
to work for 12 .f. a week he cannot keep his family on it; he is robbing his
family because they do not get the nourishment they should have ; liut that if
we find a man who is selling goods for less than he gave for them and gets into
the Bankruptcy Court we prosecute him. The principle to me is exactly the
same ; one man robbing one class of the community and another another ; and
by Act of Parliament we punish him, and therefore 1 think that the State should
interfere and that no man should be allowed to work more than the Factory
Act allows, that is, 12 hours a day ; and 1 think that the public would support
any Government that said that 12 hours a day, including meal times, was
sufficient for any man to work ; and if overtime is required let them do the
same as they do in the iron trades, have a day and a night shift. No man
complains of working all night in those cases because one set of men are
on one week for nights and another set of men are on for days, boys as
well.
25376. You think that male labour should be limited to 12 hours?
Including meal times.
25377. In factories and out of factories ?
In factories and out. of factories wherever employment, is found.
25378. And do you think that would have the effect of raising wages beyond
this point you have spoken of ?
Yes; because if an employer has an order for 1,000?. worth of articles, anel
he can only get two men to make them, and requires five, the prices will go up for
the two men; tliat is to say, that if in Sheffield, by working a day and a half
every day, these spring-knife cutlers can execute all the orders that come in in
a week, if a part of that labour were stopped the j)rices would go up because
there would be a demand for the workmen ; the effect would be that many of
the orders would be unexecuted at the end of the week.
25379. If the hours were limited, of coitrse you would require a greater
amount of labour to do the same amount of work?
Certainly, in the day time.
25380.
does it ?
( 11 .)
But it does not follow that that would raise the price of wages,
4 N 2 I think
4 N 2
652
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
5th April 1889.] Mr. Davis. ^Continued.
I think it always follows that in the presence of a demand for labour the
price goes up,
2.5381 - But I understand from your evidence that the present supply of
labour is in excess of the demand; vou have spoken of excessive competition
among the workers?
I do not think it is in excess ; they \vork such a long number of hours, and
they cannot trust themselves ; they are very busy, always working these long
hours.
25382. Then I presume you would apply it to all the trades throughout the
whole country ?
All the trades.
2 .) 383 - And therefore you think there would be no influx of labour into this
particular trade ?
I do not think the meiest labourer would look to the cutlery trade, not in
the lowest branches of it.
25384, In fact, you think that in spite of this great competition which you
have spoken of, which you said was the root ot the evil, if the hours of iabour
were limited to 12 a fair rate of wages would be earned ?
And with combination among the workpeople ; the State cannot do every-
thing ; it can regulate the hours.
25385- If there were sufficient combination among the working people they
could do all that for themselves now, could they not ?
The difficulties are very great ; they could do it if it were not for this great out-
working system. 'J'he organisation, to begin with, required to keep a body of
men like that together is very great ; the organisation required to keep a
thousand men together who all work together is very little ; the organisation to
keep together a thousand men and women who w'ork for one common object, but
who reside all over the community, is very great and difficult ; but 1 think it
would give them encouriigement if the number of hours were limited, that there
would be some cohesion, some control ; at any rate, some organisation.
25386. Lord Derby.'] I understand that you object to the system of out-
workers altogether from what you say r
1 object to it, because fiom my experience it tends to reduce wages to such a
low level.
25387. But what I want to ask is, do you propose to prohibit it by law ;
would you compel all work, at least in this trade, to be done in a factory ?
No, I should not go so far as that.
25388. Then what would you do?
Limit the number of hours worked.
25589. In the same manner as they are limited in a factory ?
Yes.
25390. You do not go beyond that?
No, I should not.
25391. But then 1 understood you to say that your reason for wishing to
discourage the system of out-working was because among men who worked in
that manner, there is no cohesion, and you wished to put them in a position in
which they could combine, if I understood your view accurately ?
Yes.
25392. Then does it not come to this : that you propose virtually to forbid
the men to deal singly with the employer, because you think they can make
better terms for themselves collectively, by dealing with him in a body?
Yes ; if by some arrangement we could have a Board, either under the Board
of Trade, or under any department of the Government at which we could have
an umpire to submit a matter to, a question of difference of opinion, there
should be a statement price, and then it should be decided as to whether the
price was paid for this, and in that way it could be regulated.
25393- What
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
G.53
5th April 1889,]
Mr. Davis.
f Continued.
25393. Wbat you object to is, that the individual workman should go to the
individual employer and make a l)argain for himself ; is not that so ?
I never said that I objected to that. I said that wherever it prevailed
it had a tendency to lower wages ; that labour was at the mercy of the various
manufacturers.
25394. Then, in elfect, what you would say to the employer is, “ You shall
not deal with this man singly because you will have the advantage over liim in
making your bargain ; you shall only deal with a number of men together,
because then they will lie in a more equal position to hold out against you I
think that is the way you put it, is it not ?
I am afraid that I did not make myself clear ; but I never committed myself
that far.
2.5395- I do not quite understand how you think that limitation of the
number of hours will raise wages ; I can understand that it will spread the
labour over a larger number of persons, but surely a man would not receive
more wages for working 10 hours than he would for working 12 hours r
Considerably more ; as a matter of fact those who work the smallest number
of hours in Sheffield earn the most money.
25396. Then if he earned more by working 10 hours than by working 12,
would he earn more by working eight hours than by working 10 ?
Well, I should think if the trade was well controlled by a society he would.
25397. Would he earn more by working six hours than by working eight ?
No, 1 do not think he would ; I think there is reason with all men ; when you
get to the point that you require too much, or go too far in any direction, reason
comes in and prevents it.
25398. Then leaving the question of principle alone, how do you think it
would be possible to enforce the limitation of hours unless you compelled all
work to be done in factories; if men are working in their own homes, what
control have you over the number of hours that they work ?
We have now a lull control over the number of hours that women work in
workrooms in private dwellings.
25399. have now legally ; but have you practically ; is not the law very
much evaded ?
Practically, I think we have, legally and practically ; I think the law is
evaded ; but the moment a dressmaker or milliner is getting on in the world,
and wants to employ one or two dressmakers, either the friends of the dress-
makers or they themselves will soon let the factory inspector know that they
are being overworked.
25400. I think I understand you to say that you think there is no fear of
foreign competition, even if the price of the articles produced in this business
were increased?
I do not think there is.
25401. 'J'here might be a very considerable increase without any increase in
the importation of foreign goods ?
I should think myself that if you were to increase the purchasing power of
the people you would be less in danger of foreign competition, because they
have more to spend in the open market ; and of course it is the home trade that
creates a great portion of our industries.
25402, These cheap articles that we have been looking at are, of course,
bought by the poorer classes mainly ?
I do not know. I think they are sent out of this country altogether.
25.403. Sent out of the country ; exported ?
Yes.
25404. But suppose that by increasing the price of production you greatly
increase the cost of the articles themselves, would not that increase of cost be
followed by diminished consumption ; is not that the general rule ?
(11.) 4N3
Not
654
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
6th April 1889.]
Mr. Davis.
[ Continued,
Not if it was a reasonable increase. If the employers gave 5 per cent, to
the men, which would he very small on a dozen knives, and increased their
selling price 5 per cent, at the same time, and always did so, then it might lead
to that state of things ; but 5 per cmt. on the selling piice is one thing, and
5 per cent, on the labour is another. Take my own trade; I was a chandelier
maker ; if you assume that for the chandelier the wholesale price was 3 1 ., the
labour w'ould be about 3.?. Qd.-, so that 1 should get 5 per cent, on 3 s. 6 d. ;
if the employer increased the price by 5 per cent, the purchaser would have 3.9.
more to pay.
25405. You think that if more had to be paid for the labour it would come
out of the pocket of the employer, the producer, not out of the pocket of the
customer ?
I am afraid that ultimately it would come out of the pocket of the customer.
25406. Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.\ With regard to the low-class work in
Sheffield, are the low-class workers a class of their own, or does a man who is
capable of doing good work in hard tim.es take to cheaper work, or is the
division one of skilled and unskilled labour?
Generally speaking, the best workmen work upon the best class of goods and
the cornu on class of goods are made by quicker workmen ; but there are plenty
of men in Sheffield who make this common class of goods who can also make a
better class. It does not always follow that the best workmen can make
common articles pay.
25407. What I meant rather was, are the two classes to any extent inter-
changeable ?
To some little extent, not to a large extent.
25408. Now% with regard to your argument about shortening the hours of
w’ork, is your contention this : that if you limited the hours of work you would
restrict competition to this extent, that a man, if he wisl.ed then to compete with
another, would ha\e to compete by superior workmanship or harder work, and
not by working longer hours ?
Yes, exactly.
25409. And that that, if it did tend to lower wages, would tend to raise the
lling value of the goods ?
And the quality of the goods.
25410. The competition would be a benefit instead of, as now, having the
eflect of lowering wages ?
It is not competition I mean, but excessive competition ; competition run
mad.
25411. Your objection to excessive competition is that it is excessive competi-
tion in the hours of labour ?
Yes, and in the price of the work.
25412. You could not well restrict that?
No, I do not see how you could restrict it. individual effort could restrict it,
and il you limit the output to some extent prices would go up.
25413. Chairman.^ Do you know whether the subdivision of labour has had
anv effect of degrading skilled labour ?
It always does.
25414..! mean in forcing what I might term skilled workmen to go on work
that unskilled labour could perform ?
Yes; 1 have known unskilled workmen go and do this work in parts. Sub-
division of labour, as you know, is to take one part, and keep a man on it
always; and the boys are brought up now in the cutlery trades kept to do one
certain thing. Now, how can they become good workmen ?
25415. I want to be quite sure that 1 understand you about your objection
to the out-workers ; what I understand your opinion to be is, that the system of
out- working
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
655
April 1889.] Mr. Davis. {Continued.
out- working gives the master a certain advantage in dealing with the men which
he would not possess if those men all worked together ?
That is so.
25416. And that therefore you think that the people who are out-workers
ought to be put on precisely the same level and under precisely the same
regulations as ihe people working in factories ?
As the people working inside.
25417. They should have no advantage over people working in factories?
Put precisely on the same level, and then it would be fair all round.
25418. Is there anything you wish to add ?
No.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next,
Twelve o’clock.
( 656 )
( 657 )
Die Jovis^ Aprilis^ 1889.
LORDS PRESENT:
Earl of Derby.
Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.
Lord Foxford {Earl of Limericlt).
Lord Kenry {Earl of Dunravcn and
Mount-Earl).
Lord Sandhurst.
Lord Thring.
Lord Basing.
LORD KENRY (Earl of Dunraven and Mount-Earl), in the Chair.
Mr. GEORGE POTTON, having been re-called ; is further Examined, as
follows :
25419. Chairman.) You wish to make some correction in your evidence, do
you not ?
Yes, at No. 2366 /, on page 504 .
25420. You were asked there, “Do you think that the Government are
getting work done by women under the supposition that that work is done by
men ? ” and you answered, “ I should think so ” ?
1 wish to correct that word “ so ” to “ not.” I really cannot hear distinctly
sometimes, and that was how I made the mistake.
25421. And your belief is that the Government are not getting work done by
women, under the supposition that it is done by men ?
No, I do not believe that the Government officials have known, till latelj^ how
it has been done, till we have explained it to them lately and made complaints.
25422. You mean that the Government were not aware of it ?
They were not.
25423. But are the Committee to understand that you think that work was
done by women which was supposed, or which ought, to have been done by
men ?
No. There is a distinction in the work, if it was properly divided ; there is
men’s work and there is women’s work ; but of late there have been so many
brought in that, as I stated to your Lordships, we did not know what to do with
the people we had got ; we could not satisfy them, because there is not the work
required for the quantity of hands, and the men have been doing women’s
work ; because when there is not artillery harness and that about, the men go
into the accoutrement work. The harness we get done by men, and the
accoutrements we principally get done by women and girls.
25424. You say there is some work which ought to be done by men, and some
which ought to be done by women ?
Yes.
25425. As to the work which ought to be done by men, do you think that
that work was ever done by women for the Government ?
No ; it is too heavy.
25426. What is the next point as to which you desire to make a correction ?
On page 515 , at No. 23823 .
(11.) 40
25427. You
(558
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
J l(/i April 1889.^ Mr. Potton. \_Continucd.
25427. You were speaking there as to making advances to workmen, and you
were asked, “What do you charge them for it?” and you said, “ One half-
penny in a shilling; ” and the next (iuestion is “A halfpenny per w(>ek ?” and
you say “ A halfpenny per week ?
I mean only I’or one week ; if they have that shilling out for twelve months,
1 simply charge a half-penny for one week only ; not for every week in the
twelve months.
25428. You mean that if you advance a man a shilling fora week you charge
him a halfpenny, and if you advance him a shilling for a year you charge him a
halfpenny ?
That is all.
2542c). As a matter of fact do you ever allow the advance to go longer than a
week. ?
Yes : they cannot help it sometimes.
25430. Do you not charge him one halfpenny for that week, and then make
him another advance ?
No ; one halfpenny on every shilling. Sometimes we have to wait for a long
time for the furniture; by the furniture I mean the buckles, clasps, ar.d so on ;
they get the leather, and they can go on and do certain parts towards it. If
] get the furniture in on Saturday, and that man has not got sufficient time to
clear the work off of my book, I give him the privilege to bring it in on
Monday, and then I pay him on Monday, and I do not charge him anything
for doing that.
25431. I understand you to mean that you make him an advance of a
shilling, or a certain number of shillings, and if you settle with him on the
Saturday you repay yourself, charging him a halfpenny in every shilling ?
Yes.
25432. At the same time, if you do not settle with him until the next week,
or the next fortnight, or whatever it may be, you deduct the sum owing then,
still charging him only a halfpenny in the shilling ?
Only one halfpenny. 1 hen if I finish an order, and I have no more orders
on my books, and what I call a practical man goes and gets work somewffiere
else of another conti actor, or a sub-contractor, and that man is not as well off
as 1 am, not in a position to advance money; 1 advance him money to do that
work with, and I nevei' charge anything whatever ; but when I get an order,
that man leaves him and cmnes to me again.
25433. Now, is it not the fact that these advances that you make are always
settled at the end of one week ?
No.
25434. How long have you ever known them to i nn ?
d welve months and over. 1 have got many on my books now.
25435. Do you mean that you have lent money for twelvemonths, charging
them. ( Illy one halfpenny in the shilling for it ?
Yes, and 1 have got money owing that has been on my books over two years,
because these men travel about the country.
25436, Earl of iwmcA-.] I suppose those cases where you have got money
still cn your books are cases of men who have ceased to work with y< u ?
They have ceased to work with me. When my contract has been finished
thev have drawn more than they haAC earned, at times they do ; and those men
might be in Manchester, or Ireland, in differents parts; they travel and come
louml again, which my books will show.
'Ihe Witness is directed to withdraw'.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
G."j9
Wth April 1889.
Mr. JABEZ smith, having been re-called ; is further Examined, as follows:
25437. Chairman. \ You have looked through some of the evidence on the
accoutrement trade given before the Committee by Mi'. Arnold White, have
you not ?
Yes, I have been through it.
2543S. Are there any rem-arks you wish to make upon it?
There are one or two corrections necessary. First of all, with regard to what
he says as to the sanitary condition, you had no evidence of that last time.
25439. On what page is it that the evidence you speak of occurs?
x\t Question 46 / 1 , on page 459 , at the top of the page.
25440. But Mr. Arnold White is there speaking of Walsall ?
Yes, he is there speaking of Walsall. I cannot speak on Walsall. The first
correction would be near the bottom of that page : “ ammunition bag (Red Sea
Service) ; this is made to carry 10 rounds.” That I understand is larger, as it
would hold 20 rounds at least. That is all I think there. The next is in the
same question, on the same page, at the bottom : “ the jrrice for the whole of
the work paid now by Potton and Almond direct, and Briggs direct, is dT 1 do
not think that Almond and Briggs paid direct. Mr. Briggs mightr have done
so, but not to my knowledge ; and Mr. Almond did not, as it was all given
through sweaters. Tlje same remark will correct the statement on page 460 ,
at No. 46 / 2 . The answer to that question is, that “direct” means “ vvithout
the intervention of sweaters,” “ Biiggs and Almond, who are contractors, are
dealing direct with the woi'kmen.” On those valises I do not think they were,
so that the same remark will correct that. The next is at No. 4673 , on the
same page, 460 : “ welting, 2 d. per day that would mean 2 d. per dozen.
25441. The question is, “ Sevenpence halfpenny means sevenpence halfpenny
per valise ” ; and Mr. Arnold White’s answer is, “ Yes, and welting 2 d per day.”
You say that ought to be “ 2 d. per dozen”?
Yes, that should be so.
25442. “ Altogether 7 -?• 8 d. per dozen.” That \vould be right ?
'that is right. Then Mr. Arnold White says, “ Five vears ago the price paid
by Potton was I s. O5 d., as folio s.” I cannot say whether that is right or not.
The next point is “ haversacks,” in the same question, about a quarter of’ the
way down : “ These are wholly machined, and are made by women only. One
woman has received lately 3 fr/. per dozen from Potton. The worker finds the
thread.” That, I think, must have meant 3 f d. each, 3 5 . 9 d. per dozen ;
though they h.ive been as low as 2 5. 9 d., and I think a pc nny or twopence a
dozen lower than that, hut I can say 2 5 . 9 d. certainly, \'ou see the machine
work used to he paid at 8 s. per hundred, so that I have no doubt when Mr.
Arnold White took his statements (there \vere several of them) one man would
say that he had received so much per dozen, say 3 5 . 9 r/. per dozen, and another
man might say, “ I have had them at 3 f d.,” by which he would mean 3 | d.
each, while the other would mean 3 5 . 9 d. a dozen. To at would cause Mr.
Arnold White to make a mistake easily. The ne.xt point is “Leggings for
Drivers,” about 10 lines from the bottom of the. same page: “These are made
of solid brown leather, with three straps and buckles, with a lay the whole
leng'h, and four rows of seven to the inch sewing. There are not many given
out. Alost, of them have recently been made at Walsall by women. About
2 d. an hour can be earned at these ; the recent pay is 4 f d. per dozen.” That
must be a mistake, as the leggings were paid at 4 i d. each.
25443. That would probably he intended for 4 f d. “ each ” ?
1 think that 4 i d. is meant for another legging, as Mr. Arnold White took
evidence on another legging, hut he has not put it in his statement anywhere,
that is the Post Office and private soldiers’ leggings.
25444. This particular legging, mentioned by him at that time, you say was
paid for 4 |d. each ?
(11.) 4O2
Yes,
6C0
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
Uth /lp77 1889.] Mr. Smith. iContinued.
Yes, d. eacli. That was au extra good price at that time, from Almond’s.
I think Mr. Arnold White must have put the wrong price there, as the Post
Office and private soldiers’ leggings were given to him at 4f d. per dozen.
25445. He has given the right price to the wrong article ; that is what it
comes to ?
Yes.
25446. Wliat is the next one you wish to comment on ?
The next will be the shoe-pockets, mentioned just under “ Leggings for
drivers,” “ Canvas, Infantry, and black leather shoe-pocket.” I think°that must
mean “ Cavalry and mounted infantry brown leather slioe-pocket the mounted
infantry might carry a shoe-pocket.
25447. Are there such things as “ Canvas infantry black leather shoe-
pockets ” ?
Certainlv not ; you would scarcely get a canvas article made of leather, I
think. I think he must liave meant that for “ Cavalry and mounted infantry;”
they xvould be brown leather; I do not know of any black.
25448. Would the prices be right for that ?
The prices would be right except “ The large at 4 5. a dozen by Squires.”
They were done by Almond d.\
so _\ ou see it does not vary much after the second week comes in.
25488. Chairman.] As to the others, are they about tbe same r
Tliey run about the same ; I vvill read down the wages of another man.
25489. I do not think you need give us all the weeks ; give us the average ?
The averages of some of them come to more. Here is one man who does
principally seaming, but the last few weeks he has had a few back fittings; I
have not worked out his average, but I have got his receipts right down ; I
have not had time to work out his average ; I did not take them till last night,
and this morning 1 have been looking after a witness.
25490. Read them out if you like ?
The first w eek is 7 s. A d., then 12,?. 8^ d., then 17 s. 83 d., then 18 s. 9 d.,
then 20 s., then 21 ,?. 3 d.. then 17 6 d., then 18 5. 4 d., then 20 ,?. 2| d., then
20.? 2s d.. then 21 s. Oi d., then 21 s, lOic/., and 20.?. Out of that he would
have to purchase his hemp and wax; and the last few weeks he has been work-
ing an hour or two hours more per day, and they all run about the same.
There is one here with a very low total.
25491. Have you given us the names?
I can supply your Lordships with the names. I prefer not to read them out,
not as far as that goes, for 1 think that it may mean no employment for them
very .^oon ; 1 have no doubt upon that at all, some employers are very rum ii.en
to deal with ; but I will sufiply your Lordships with the name and the wages I
have taken from each one, and give you the whole of the amounts that I have
copied from their books. There is one man who has gone on the pouches who
is a practical pouch hand, not but what this equipment is a little different from
the Olliers, still he has been at them before, and last week he earned 18 s. 9 d.
on fifty 40-rounds, and his hemp cost him lOg d.
25492. Karl of Limerick-'] Colonel \^"allaee says, at No. 24612, A good man
at the 40-round pouch can make 50 per week, or a little over eight a day, at
A\d. a pouch, and earn from 18 s. 9 d. to 1 I.” That seems exactly the sum
that this man has earned ?
Yes, that man is a practical man ; there are not many that could go over this
man ; but that is not a fair average to take, 18 s. 9 d., though the price of the
pouches is higher now than they were before ; they were previously 3| d., now
they are 41 d.
25493. Chairman^ Have you anything more to say about the prices ; have
you anything to say about this woman whom Colonel Wallace speaks of who
earns such high wages ?
I cannot say exactly who she is ; but there was one at one time working in
her dinner hour ; she was having half-an-hour for dinner instead of an hour,
and in the course of a week of six days that makes three hours difference. That
(11.) 4 P would
666
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE
\2th April 1889 .]
Mr. Smith.
[ Continued.
would not alter the total of her wages by so very much. At Question 24601 ,
Colonel Wallace gives an answer which 1 would like to speak on.
25494. As to the list of prices posted up, you mean ?
As to the list of prices : “ Do you have a list of the prices you pay your
hands posted up in the factory ? (A.) Not only in the factory, but read to
every man when he is engaged.” That is entirely false, as it is read to no man.
Some of them have been asked when they have gone in if they knew the prices,
others have not ; it is not read to the men, and recentlv, since he has taken more
premises in the other shop, there is not a price list posted.
25495. What do you call “ the other shop ” ?
He has taken one at the same address, but another room below, which he did
not have before, and there are some men taken on there. I cannot say if they
were told the prices, but the prices were not read to them, and there is not
a price list in the room ; there was not, there may be to-day.
25496. Do you mean that the men are ignorant of the price ?
I do not mean to say exactly that they are ignorant of the price ; some of
them are. Then Colonel Wallace says : “ Nothing is done for us out of the
factory at all that is at 24605 . As to that, of course I do not know that
Colonel Wallace allows it to be done out, but as I explained to your Lordships
just now, a good bit is taken out, and that helps the men to earn a good bit
more. Then at 24609 here is a statement made by Colonel Wallace to con-
tradict a statement made by me. It commences about the third or fourth
line.
25497. Colonel Wallace in that answer is explaining the matter of a man
being dischargt d ; I forget what you alleged lie had been discharged for ?
He gives you the picture in one colour, and I give it in another.
25498. But we have them both before us now ?
His statement is entirely incorrect. He says that the men were at perfect
liberty to leave. Those men did not get an opportunity of leaving ; they were
told if there were any more grumbling they would go.
25499. You told us all this before, did you not ?
I did not give it to you fully. I saw the men last Monday at a meeting
when Colonel Wallace’s statement was read to them, and they said it was
entirely false, nearly the whole of Colonel Wallace’s men.
25500. Is it your contention that these men were discharged ?
No, they were not discharged ; they were threatened that if there was any
more grumbling they would be discharged. He said in his statement that they
could give notice and leave, but he did not give them the chance ; he only \vent
round otice after that and spoke to one man, and he told him that he w'as
earning 3 d. an hour. I have a witness whom I can call presently who can say
that Colonel Wallace did not go round more than once while he was working
there.
25501. I think we have had the two views on the subject quite sufficiently
before us ? Have you anything more to say about the prices that Colonel
Wallace mentioned?
They are not fair prices at all ; not prices fair to the men.
25502. What I understand you to mean from what you have said is that, as
regards the lower rate of wages earned, there is not much difference between
you and Colonel Wallace, but that what you object to with regard to the higher
rates of wages that have been mentioned that a good workmen can earn, you
say they are only earned by their working overtime, or by having men helping
a man to earn them, or by taking work home to do ; that they do not really
earn those wages duiing the hours worked in the factory and by their own
labour alone ?
That is what I want your Lordships to understand ; that this man who did
tlie best work, and earned the best money also, had assistance for that work ;
and
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
667
\2th April 1889.]
Mr. Smith.
{Continued.
and I have a practical man that has made the valises throughout, a man that
made the first twelve for C’olonel Wallace, and he found it impossible in doing
tho."e valises throughout to earn \l. 17 or 1 1 . 18.?. per week. I think he
earned about in four da3's, and he is not considered a slow man, but he
is a man that has been in the trade, and is a credit to the trade.
25503. Ten shillings in four days, you say ?
In four days.
25504. That was at the commencement, I suppose?
That was at tlie commencemenr ; but he had done those valises before.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Lieutenant-Colonel N. WTLLOUGHBV WALLACE, having been
re-called ; is further Examined, as follows :
25505. Chairman.~\ You heard the comments wliich Mr. Jabez Smith has
made upon your evidence as to the wages that are earned ; and they appear
to be that the highest rates of wages that you mentioned are only earned upon
the highest paid class of work, and also that they could only be earned by men
either with assistance (which happened in one case; by other men, or by taking
some portion of the work home, and must not be taken as representing the
rate of wages that even an exceptionally good workman could earn ; have you
anything to say about that ?
I did not state in my evidence that 1 Z. 17 6 d. was to be considered in any
way a fair average of the work that could be done by a man. I stated, I
think, in my evidence that that was an exceptional case, and I put that as
the highest.
25506. You said the work was not exceptional ?
But I said it w’as the hiiihest.
O
25507. Chairman.^ 1 asked you this question : “ I think you mentioned that one
man earned 1 Z. 17 6 een sworn, is Examined,
as follows :
25524. Chairman.'\ Are you an Army accoutrement maker?
Yes.
25525. Do you remember anything of this occurrence that Mr. Jabez Smith
has mentioned of work being done in French convict prisons for our Govern-
ment ?
Yes
25526. What do you know about it. You need not mention the contractors
name ?
Or the man’s name either ?
25227. No, not any name ?
A man I was doing a bit of work for had some of those shoe cases to finish
off after they had come back from France.
25528. How do you know that they had come from France ?
They had got the convict’s number on each one. They were not the London
make or the coumry make ; the gusset was not trimmed off on each side.
I took one up, and I asked Iiim, “ Why, whose work is this one ?” He said,
“They are made in a French convict prison.” The man I was doing a bit of
work for at the time gave me that answer ; 1 do not wish to mention any name,
but I could bring the name forward.
25529. Earl of Lhnerick.\ Do you know hovv he knew that they were made
in French convict prisons ?
Bv seeing them packed off ; and then come back ready made ; he saw them
packed off at ’s, and come back.
25530. 'Fhe man you were working for saw them packed off?
He saw them packed, and had them to finish off when they came back.
2553 I . When did this happen ?
I should think 1887, as near as I can guess ; two years ago, just about.
25532. Duke of Norfolk^^ He knew they went abroad, but how did he know
thev went to prisons?
That was the direction on the cases, such a place somewhere in France, on
the cases.
25533. Chairman.^ Flave you ever known that occur at any other time ?
Never before or since.
25534. Never heard any other man mention it ?
Yes, it is a well known fact amongst us workers that it was being done.
(11.) 4 P 3 25535. Do
670
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE '. — SWEATING SYSTEM,
\'2th April ISSQ.I Mr. Buxton. {Continued.
25535. mean that it was a well-known fact that it was being done in
other cases besides this ?
No, I never knew ; but only that one firm to do it.
25536. But it was well known amongst you that it was done on this ono
occasion r
Yes. Of course, we were helpless ; we could not do anything in tlie matter
whatever.
The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Ordered^ That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday, 2nd May,
Twelve o’clock.
t C71 ]
A P P E If D I X.
(11.)
4 p 4
[ 672 ]
LIST OF APPENDIX.
Appendix A.
Paper handed in by the Hon. E. P. Thesiger, c.b.: page
Letter from Mr. Richmond to Mr. A, Hedgrave, c.b., dated Liverpool, 28 December
1888 675
Statistics relating to certain Workshops in Liverpool visited, as to Number and Class
of Hands employed, Wages Earned, Condition of Workroom, and Amount paid by
the Masters to the Middlemen for each Garment ------- 676
Letter from Mr. May to Mr. A. Redgrave, c b., dated Leeds, 4 June 1888 - - 678
Letter from Mr. Johnston to Mr. A. Redgrave, c.b., dated Bristol, 29 December 1888 679
Letter from Messrs. Hammersley & Co. to Mr. T. Astley, Stoke, dated Longlon,
Staffordshire Potteries, 5 January 1889 - -- -- -- - 680
Letter from Mr. Thurlow Astley, dated Stoke-on-Trent, 8 January 1889 - - - 681
Letter from Mr. Bignold to the Secretary, Home Office, dated Plymouth, 12 January-
1889 '- - - 682
Letter from Mr. Bowling to Mr. Oram, dated Brondesbury, N. W., 2 January
1889 - 683
Appendix B.
Paper handed in by the Hon. E. P. Thesiger, c.b., 28 February 1889:
Money earned during the Months of January, May, June, and July, by Workwomen
interviewed by Mr. Arnold White in April last ------- 684
Appendix C.
Paper handed in by Mr. Thomas Homer, 6 March 1889 :
Copy of a Resolution passed by Employers and Workmen employed in the Small Chain
Trade, held at the Whitley Memorial Schools, Cradley Heath, on Tuesday, 15
January 1889; also List of Members of Committee appointed - - - - g85
1889. — Chainmakers’ Wages for Outwork. - Revised 4 s. List, agreed to by the Joint
Committee of Employers and Ojieratives - -- -- -- - 686
Appendix D.
Paper handed in by Mr. Edward Squire, m.d. :
Excessive Mortality from Consumption amongst Tailors ------ 687
Appendix E.
Paper handed in by Mr. Edward Squire, m.d., 12 March 1889:
Extracts from the Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire ir' a the Sanitary-
Condition of the Army, 1858 ------ 688
Appendix F.
Paper handed in by Mr, George Green, 14 March 1889;
Copy of Mr. Burnett’s Report, 9 November 1888 -
689
PAGE
[ 67:s ]
Apj)enclix G.
Paper handed in by Mr. George Green. 15 March 1889:
The Spike Nail List, from 26 February 1889, as agreed to at a Meeting of the
Employers and Operatives, held in the Local Board Kooin, Old Hill - - - 099
Appendix H.
Paper handed in by Mr. J, VV. H. Walker, 15 iMarcb 1889:
Net Workmen’s Prices. — Confirmed at a Meeting of Nail Masters, held at the Midland
Hotel, Birmingham, 30 January 1879 - - - - - - - - 691
Appendix I.
Papers handed in by Mr. B. Hingley, m.p., 21 March 1889:
Copy of Dummy or False Certificates relating to Cradley Heath Chain Testing Works 695
Copy of Authorised Certificate of Test for Small Chains issued at Proving House,
Netherton - 696
Copy of Authorised Certificate issued at Lloyd’s Proving House, Netherton, for
Testing Anchors and Chain Cables - 696
Appendix K.
Paper handed in by Mr. J. L. Mahon, 29 March 1889 ;
Scheme for the Re-organisation of the Chain and Nail-making Industry, by Mr.
J. L. Mahon. Approved by the Midland Counties Trades Federation, and by
a Special Committee of Nail and Chain-makers scdected by that Body - - - 697
Appendix L.
Paper handed in by Mr. C. W. Hoare, 29 March 1889 :
Letter from Mr. C. C. W. Hoare to Mr. R. E. S. Oram, dated W'olverhampton,
2 February 1889, relating to the Nail and Chainmakers at Wolverhampton and
District - -- -- -- -- -- -- - 699
Appendix M.
Papers handed in by Mr. Evan C. Nepean, c.b., 29 March 1889 :
List of Prices agreed to be paid by Lieutenant Colonel Wallace for making up 10,000
Valises, Pattern 1888, for the War Department; Contract, 29 October 1888
(7127—3034) 702
List of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. Dolan & Co. for stitching Buff Valise
Equipment, on Contract dated 16 November 1888 (7127 — 3336) - - - - 702
List of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. Hel)bert & Co., for preparing and sewing
Buff Valise Equipment, on Contract dated 16 November 1888 (7127 — 3336) - - 702
List of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. R. and J. Pullman, for sewing Buff Valise
Equipment, on Contract dated 24 November 1888 (7127 — 3365) - - - - 703
List of Prices agreed to be paid by Lieutenant Colonel Wallace for stitching Buff
Valise Equipment, on Contract dated 24 November 1888 (7127 — 3356) - - 703
List of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. D. Mason and Sons for Labour in connec-
tion with their Contract for Harness and Saddlerv, dated 18 December 1888
(7161—2^' * 703
List of R^^^agreed to be paid by Mr. W. IMiddlemore for Labour in connection witli
his^^^^ctfor Harness and Saddlery for Household Cavalry, dated 18 December
le^Bmei— 2049) 704
Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. Hobson and Sons for preparing and
stitching Accoutrements for the War Department, on Contract dated 21 February
1889 (7127 — 3425) 704
List of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. Dolan & Co. for stitching Accoutrements
for the War Department, on Contract dated 25 February 1889 (7127 — 3423)
(11.) 4Q
704
[ 674 ]
Appendix M. — continued.
Paper handed in by Mr. Evan C. Nepean, c.b., 29 hJarcli 1889 — continued. page
List of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. Hobson and Sons for preparing and
stitching Black Accoutrements, on Contract dated 28 February 1889 (7127 — 3424) 705
List of Prices agreed to be paid by Mr.' W. Middlemore for making up Accoutre-
ments, on Contract dated 28 February 1889 (7 127 — 3424) 705
List of Prices agreed to be paid by Mr. W. Middlemore, for making up Black Valise
Equipment for the War Department, on Contract dated 9 March 1879 (7127 — 3459) 706
List of Prices agreed to be paid by Lieutenant Colonel Wallace, for making up Valises
for the War Department, on Contract dated 13 March 1889 (7127 — 3459) - - 706
Appendix N.
Paper handed in by Mr. C. E. Tomlin :
Prices paid for making certain Articles for Military Equipment in 1885, by Messrs. *
Alec Ross & Co. 707
Appendix 0.
Paper handed in by Mr. W. J. Davis, 5 April 1889:
Evidence collected by Mr. W. J. Davis, Her Majesty’s Inspector of Factories,
Sheffield ;
Table showing the Condition under which the Spring-Knife Cutlers of Sheffield
are employed - 708
Table showing the Conditions under which the Table Knife Hafters are (Out-
workers) employed in Sheffield ------ 709
Table showing Conditions under which Grinders are employed in Sheffield - 709
Table showing Conditions in which Outworkers in the File-cutting Trade of
Sheffield are employed - - - - - - - - - - 710
Appendix P.
Paper handed in by Mr. Rowland Mason, 11 April 1889 ;
Prices paid to Workpeople by D. Mason & Sons for making certain Articles for
Military Equipment - - - - - - - - - - - - 711
\
[ 075 1
APPENDIX.
Appendix A.
PAPER handed in by the Hon E. P. Thesiger, C B.
Letter from Mr. Richmond to Mr. A. Redgrave, c.B.
Sir, Liverpool, 28 December 1888.
In my previous letter, in reply to your’s of 15th December, I stated that I did not
consider that any trades in my district, with the exception of the tailoring trade,
would come within the definition of the Sweating System, as laid down in your com-
munication. Perhaps, however, I might have mentionrd “ file-cutting and tool-making,”
and “ watch-movements making,” in the neighbourhood of Prescot and Rainhill, as those
which approach most nearly to the definition. But of late years comparatively few pro-
tected hands have been employed in the former ; while the number of small workshops
connected with the latter have greatly decreased. Almost all the file-cutters are
employes of Messrs. Stubbs of Warrington, who supply the material to the middlemen,
w'ho have small workshops attached to their own houses.
At Prescot there used to be a very large number of small workshops where the material
for watch-movements making was supplied by masters. Although a number of these still
exist they are greatly reduced, whilst the protected hands are chiefly in the larger
factories.
The workshops occupied by sweating tailors, on the other hand, have, in Liverpool,
become far more numerous of late years.
Last May you accompanied me to a large number of these workshops, and throughout
the year frequent visits have been made to them by my'self and Mr. Pearson. But, since
receiving your letter of 15th December I have visited some of the more important workshops
with special reference to your inquiries. As an Appendix to this Report, I give statistics
with regard to each workshop visited, as to number and class of hands employed, wages
earned, condition of workroom, and amount paid by the masters to the middlemen for
each garment.
Two distinct classes of sweating shops are to be found in Liverpool ; one, in which
garments are made to order for master tailors pos'-essing shops elsewhere ; the other,
W'here they are made for ready-made stock at the wholesale clothiers. In the former,,
better wages are earned by the employes, because better prices are paid to the middle-
meh ; whilst, in the latter, are to be found the worst-paid hands, inasmuch as prices,
owing to keen competition between the middlemen, are cut. down to a ruinous level.
Several of the wholesale clotl\iers, such as Lewis & Co., P. Williams & Co., Lyons &
Co., &c., have lar^e workrooms on their own premises, but, nevertheless, emi)loy a great
many out-bands. But there are a number of tailors who have shops in important streets,
who send all their work out.
Speaking generally of the sanitary condition of :he sweating shops, in Liverpool, 1
fancy they will compare favourably with those of other towns, but this is more the result
of fre(juent inspection than the outcome of any desire on the part i>i iho ooa ui lers. The
tendency to overcrowd is constant, and the occupiers seem to have no idea of the numbers
a room should contain ; their opinion of overcrowding is confined to floor space. I have
sent a good many notices this year to occupiers with the result that there are many more
separate workshops, and fewer in their own houses, which are seldom adapted to be aged,
as workrooms.
The larger number of sweating shops are occupied by German and Polish Jews, who
rarely make up anything but coats ; trousers are undertaken by “ Christian ” occupiers ;
while waistcoats are almost entirely given over to icomen. I have not my registers by me
to give the number of sweating shops in Liverpool, but the “ Lancet,” last May, o-ave
them as about 230. During the summer, I obtained the list of out-door workers from
most of the wholesale clothiers, and visited them all, A large number proved to be
domestic workshops only. The hours of work in the sweating shops are almost univer-
sally from 8 a.m, to 8 p.m., with 1 hour for dinner, and hall-an-hour for tea. Overtime
on Friday nights is very prevalent. When there is work to be done no idling is allowed,
every minute of the working hours being utilised. But there is rarely work for each dav
of the week. Some of the Jews never work on Saturdays, while in other shops, Monday
is generally a holiday. Work varies very much according to the season of the year.
I am, &c.
A. Redgrave, Esq., c.B. (signed) H. S. Richmond.
( 11 .)
676
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE
Statistics relating to certain Workshojis in Liverpool visited, as to Number and
Class of Hands Employed, Wages Earned, Condition of Workroom, and Amount paid
by the Masters to tlie Middlemen for each Garment.
M. Jacobs, Epworth-street, Tailor.
Employs one man, four women, and two female young persons.
Works for Turner & Co,, Ranelagh-street.
Coats only. To order.
Price paid by Turner & Co., per coat, ranges from 6 s. Q d. to 10 s. Frock coats, 13 s.
Wages :
1 man (presser)
1 woman (machinist)
2 ,, j,
1 „
1 young person -
1 ■ „ - -
To illustrate how the sweating system is fostered by journeyman tailors, Mr. Jacobs
told me that he often received jiartly made garments to finish, because the men in
Turner & Co’s own workroom were out “ on the spree,” leaving the coats unfinished,
although they had to be sent to the customer by a certain day.
This Avorkroom is in Mr. Jacob’s own house, at the top.
The house is of a better class than most, and the Avorkroom is fair. Hands partly
JeAvs, partly not.
7 s. per day.
4 s. „
3 s. Ad. per day.
3 s. „ '
2 s. „
Is. 6 J. ,,
J. Morrison, Devon-street, Tailor.
Works entirely for Scotch drapers.
Employs six men and one young person ; and tAvo daughters also.
Wages :
Men on piece-work.
1 female young person - - - - -2 s. 6 J. per week.
Workroom rather overcroAvded. The girls to be put into another room.
H. Balsam, Pcmbroke-place, Tailor.
Employs three men and eight women.
orks for LeAA'is & Co. Coats only. Ready-made stock.
LeAvis & Co. pay for each coat prices ranging from 2 s. to 4 s. 6 d.
Wages :
1 man (foreman) -
2 men
1 Avoman (machinist)
4
9
1 - » jf
8s. Ad. per day.
7 s. 6 d. „
3 s. S d. „
2 s. 6 d. „
Hired Avorkshop, detached from any house. Large room of good height. Hands, men
are JeAvs; Avomen, only partly.
Jacob Davies, Tailor, Copperas Hill.
Employs four men and six women.
Works for Lyons & Co., ready made, and for Wyllie, to order.
Coats only. Prices paid by Wyllie, to order, 5 s. to 6 s. per coat. Prices paid by
Lyons & Co., ready made, 1 s. 3 rf. to 2 s. 6 d. per coat.
W ages naid :
O A
2 men
2 Avomeii
1
1
1
7 s. per day.
6 s. „
4 s. „
3 s, „
2 s. 6 d. per day.
1 s. 6 d. „
\s. Ad. „
Workrooms consist of tAvo rooms [at the top of his house. Clean, but only about
7 ^ feet high.
Hands : Men are Jews, women only partly.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
677
Abraham Pominisky, Tailor, Frederick-street.
Employs three men and five women.
Works for P. Williams & Co. Coats only, at prices varying from 1 s. to 5 s. each.
W ages :
1 man
2 men
1 woman
2 women
- 6 s. per day.
-5 s. „
- 3 s. 6 d. per day.
- 3 s. per day.
- 2 s- 9 d. per day.
2 s. per day.
Workroom : Large room of good heiglit on first floor of his house. Hired from
P. Williams & Co.
Hands : Men are Jews ; women only partly.
I/. Levi, Tailor, Frederick-street.
Employs five men, one boy, and six women.
Works for P. Williams & Co., ready-made stock.
Coats only. Prices paid by Williams & Co. range from 1 s. to 2 s. per coat.
Wages :
5 men and boy ----- from 2 s. 6 rf. to 7 s.
1 woman - - - - - - - - 3 s. 6 1 /.
3 women - - - - - - - - 3 s.
1 „ 2 s.
1 „ 1 s. 6 (/.
Workroom : Lofty, first on ground-floor, door opening into street. This man had
workrooms in his own house in Warren-street ; reported for overcrowding, and notice
sent to remedy. Present workrooms good and lofty, hired from P. Williams & Co., but
still lives in Warren-street.
Hands : Men are Jews ; women only partly.
L. Bernstein, Tailor, Frederick-street.
Employs 7 men, 8 women.
Coats only for P. Williams & Co., ready-made stock, ranging from 1 s. 4 d. to 3 s. per
coat.
Wages
Men -
3 women -
3 „
1 woman -
2 women -
Workroom : Lofty, on ground-floor, door opening into street. This man had over-
crowded workrooms in Pleasant-street. Notice sent, and warned. Present workroom
hired from P. Williams & Co.
Hands; Men are Jews; women orily partly.
- from 2 5. to 7 s. per day.
•3 s. ,,
2 s. 8 d. „
1 s. 6 d. „
1 s. 2 d. „
per day.
9?
99
99
S. Syder, Tailor, Frederick-street.
Employs six men, three boys, and seven women.
Works for P. Williams & Co, Coats only, 1 s. 3 d. to 4 s, each. Ready-made stock.
Wages :
1 man - - -
-
-
-
-
65 .
per day,
4 men - - - -
-
-
-
-
3 s. 6 f/.
99
1 man - - - -
1 young person, male -
-
-
-
- 3 s. Q d
99
1 >> ~
-
-
-
-
- 2 s. 6 d.
99
1 3> 35 "
-
-
-
-
1 s. 6 d.
9 ?
1 woman - - -
-
-
-
-
3 s. 4 d.
99
1 33 - . -
-
-
-
2 s. 6 d.
99
1 33 - - -
-
-
-
-
2 s. 4 d.
99
3 „ - - -
-
-
-
-
- 2s. 2d.
99
1 3, - - -
-
-
-
-
1 s. 8 d.
•9
This man had workrooms in his own house in Warren-street. Notice sent of over-
crowding. ^ Present workroom is a room of good height ; hired from P. Williams & Co.
Still lives in Warren-street.
Hands : Men are Jews, women only partly so
(11.) 4R
678
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE
Mrs. Meahin, Waistcoat Maker, Leander-street.
Employs seven women and girls, besides herself and daughter.
W ages :
Hands on piece-work, except the youngest. Wages range from 2 s. Q d.
to 12 s. per week.
Waistcoats only for P. Williams & Co.
_ Workrooms in own house. Was overcrotvded in May last, but another room added
since. This place was mentioned by the “ Lancet.”
Hands : No Jewess.
J. Lardner, Tailor, Brownlow Hill.
Employs three men and 24 women and girls.
Works for Lewis & Co. and others. Trousers only, to order. Prices paid, 3 s. and
extras each.
Wages :
Women (machinists) - 4 s. per day.
Others, piece-work - - - - - - 15 s. to 20 s. per week.
Three apprentices 3 s. per week.
Hands: All Christians. Women chiefly Irish.
Workroom good; not attached to house.
Thomas Singer, Tailor, Blake-street.
Employs eight men and ten women.
Works for Fleming, Scotland-road. Coats and Waistcoats. Prices paid :
Coats - S.2 d. to Is. 9 d. each.
W aistcoats - - - - - - - 8J. tols. each.
Wages :
W omen - - - - - - - - Is. to 3s. 6 J. per day.
Men - - - - - - - - 1 s. 6 J. to 3 s. 6 per day .
Has moved twice of late. First visit to present.
Workroom ; Sixteen people in room containing about 2,200 cubic feet. Attached to
house.
Hands: Men are Jews ; women mixed.
Abraham Levin, Tailor, Bridport-street.
Employs one woman and four men.
Workroom at top of house ; frightfully hot ; low ceiling. First visit at request of
Sanitary Authorities, 22nd December 1888. Notice of overcrowding and requisite venti-
lation sent.
(signed) H. S. Richmond.
29 December 1888.
Letter from Mr. May to Mr. A. Redgrave, c.b.
Sir, Leeds, 4 June 1888.
With a view to furnishing you with a reliable reply to the inquiry in your letter of
the 28th ultimo, a considerable number of workshops occupied by Jewish tailors, working
for wholesale clothiers, have been visited by Mr. Rickards, Mr. Dawson, and myself,
during the last few days, and the result, as shown in the accompanying table is, I think,
on the whole, satisfactory.
The number of such workshops now on the register is rather over 100, and 57 have
been visited. This number would have been far greater but for the Jewish Sabbath on
Saturday last.
During my own inspection I have noticed a marked improvement since my first intro-
duction to such places some eight years ago. I consider that, taking one thing with
another, they would now bear comparison with those in any branch of industry employ-
ing the same class of persons, of any faith, either here or elsewhere.
The
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
679
The results shown in the accompanying table may be thus summarised : —
Space. — Under this head there is practically no fault to find. Good has been recorded
where there are not less than 250 cubic feet for each person.
General Cleanliness. — The rooms come out very well under this head also, but the
approaches not so well. This is the case in all such places ; but great improvement has
taken place, and we will give special attention to this point.
Limewashing. — The same difference is here found between rooms and approaches. It
is the old story of divided responsibility. Many of tlie rooms are limewashed twice or
thrice in a year. Those that are done once I have marked ‘‘ good.”
Water-closet Accommodation. — This, in some cases, is certainly very defective and in
others very bad, and I much regret to find it so. The sanitary authority will gladly
co-operate in its improvement, and I trust that we may shortly show a better record.
Only six work-rooms in dwelling-houses are known to us at present, nor do I think
that many more could be found.
I am, &c.
A. Redgrave, Esq., C.B. (signed) 5. AI. W. May.
These may, I feel sure, be taken as a fair sample of the whole ; but a similar report
on the others shall follow in a few days.
Letter from Mr. Johnston to Mr. A. Redgrave, C.B.
Sir, Bristol, 29 December 1888.
I HAVE, agreeably with your wish, made inquiry as to the existence of the sweating
system in this district, and find tliat in but few of the trades is there any trace of what
may properly be so called, though no doubt there are certain conditions under which some
other industries are carried on which tend to keep down the rate of wages.
Bristol, as compared with other essential manufacturing towns is more of a mercantile
community, depending on import trade and the distribution of goods for its prosperity,
and consequently there is a large amount of female labour available.
This, 1 think, is the reason why clothing manufacture is so largely carried on here,
both in the tailoring and shoemaking branches, and why so much work in these branches
is done in private dwelling-houses.
The tailorin
4 » 4
-
-
-
2/0
7 ?
4 » A
-
-
-
]/10
7’
4l 9
^2 »> 112
-
-
-
1/8
77
5 » tV
-
-
-
1/H
77
„ H
-
-
-
1/2
77
c „ g
-
-
-
1 1 h d.
77
7 1 ^
-
-
-
1 0^^ d.
77
8 „ and larger
-
-
d.
?>
Fine spikes, 3 d. per
bundle extra.
Boat spikes,
3r/.
77
Fine boat spikes, 6 d
• 37
37
Barge nails.
G d.
77
37
DOG EAR
SPIKES.
H i>y fV
-
-
-
3/3 per bundle
^ -fs
-
-
-
2/11
37
^ ,, g
-
-
-
2/1 1
77
^ ry a
-
-
-
2/4
57
Q 1 3
^2 r 8
-
-
-
2/1
77
4 „ g
-
-
-
1/1 ll.
77
3 V t's
-
-
-
2/1 “
57
3 s »
-
-
-
1/10
7»
^ >» 1 0
-
-
-
1/83
37
ol 1
.5 2 >> 2
-
-
-
1/83
37
1
» 2
-
-
-
1/6 i
73
Larger sizes
-
-
-
1/5|
37
DOGS
or
BROBS.
21 hy ,-V
-
-
-
2/2 per
bundle
O i 5
• 5 -jg"
-
-
-
Dll
77
•5 5
^ yy 16
-
-
1/8
73
„ g
-
-
-
1/8
7?
3 „ g
-
-
1 loh
77
3j }) 8
-
-
]/:4
77
4 „ s
-
-
l/2i
77
3 n Tff
-
-
1/23
7?
-.1 7
•^2 » Tij
•
-
I/I 3
77
4 » tV
-
-
I/O 3
77
3i „ h
-
-
1/0
37
4 » ■g
-
-
iH-J.
57
Larger sizes
-
10-1-
37
Spoon Heads, 3 d. per bundle e.\tra.
2
by 4
-
-
- 4/5 per bundle.
ol
~4
-
-
- 4/i
7?
ol
1
77 4
-
-
- 3/10
77
2lr
„ No. 2
-
-
- 3/7
73
oi
„ No. 1
-
-
- 3/4
77
3
„ No. 1
-
-
- 3/-
7?
01
- 4
7 7
-
-
- 2/4
37
ol-
37 To
-
-
. o/ol
-/ -2
77
3
6
33 I'S
-
-
- 1/10
77
ol
77 g
-
-
- 1/10
77
3
77 g
-
-
- 1/8
77
85
77 i
-
-
- 1/6
77
4
37 i
-
-
- l/4i
37
77 Ttl
-
-
- 1/4
77
4
73 TtT
-
-
- l/2i
3?
4
1
77 2
-
-
• 1/2
77
LEAD HOOKS.
2t,
in, -
-
-
- 2/3 per bundle.
3
77
-
-
- 1/11
73
77
-
-
- l/2i
37
4
77
-
-
- 1/a
3?
.
HOLDFASTS.
ol
in. -
-
-
- 2/9 per bundle.
3
37
-
-
- 2/3
7?
33
-
-
- 2/0
77
4
„ and upwards
- 1/8
77
GUTTER
SPIKES.
5
1 6"
in. -
-
-
- 1/5 per
bundle.
No. 1 W.G.
-
-
- 1/G
77
77
2 „
-
-
- 1/10
77
37
3 „
•
All len
- 2/1
gths.
77
PIPE NAILS:
oi
-2
by -A
-
-
• 3/0 per bundle.
3
5
77 J 0
-
-
- 2/7
77
3|
5
37 Id’
-
•
- 2/4
77
4
1 1
77 '3 2
-
-
- 2/2
3 ?
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM,
691
Appendix H.
PAPER handed in by Mr. J. IF. U. Walker, 15th Marcli 1889.
Net Workmen’s Prices.
Confirmed at a Meeting of Nail Masters, held at the Midland Hotel, Birmingham,
30th January 1879.
To take place 5th February 1879. Entered at Stationers’ Hall, London, and is Copyright.
Rose Nalls.
U lbs.
»>
3 „
31 „
H „
3 ? »
1 „
•^5 >»
*• !)
7 „
71 ))
S »
‘J „
10 „
11 „
12 „
13 „
11
15 „
16 „
17 „
18 „
19 „
20 „
22 „
24 „
26 „
28 „
30 „
32 „
34 „
36 „
33 „
40 „
45 „
50 ,,
Bill Brads, 1 d.
s. d.
16 6 per bdle.
15 3
11 6 „
10 4
9 1
8 5 „
8 1 „
7 7 „
7 4 „
6 11
6 7 „
6 7 „
0 2 „
5 9
5 4
5 3 „
5 1 „
6 1
4 11
4 10 „
4 9 „
4 8 „
4 6
4 4
4 3 „
.4 2 „
4 1 „
4 0 „
3 11
3 11
3 9 „
3 8 „
3 G „
3 5 „
3 4
3 2 „
3 1 „
3 0 „
2 11 „
2 9 „
2 8 „
2 6 „
per M. less.
Strong Rose and Strong
Flemish. Sharp and Flat.
20 lbs.
- 2 in.
K.
- 3
d.
8 per bdle.
28 „
- 2^
- 3
3
30 „
- 2J „
- 3
2 „
40 „
- 3 „
2
7
Pound Nails.
B.
Clasp.
s. d.
S.
d.
16 lbs.
- 6 dy.
4 2 per bdle.
8 lbs.
-
-
6
9 per bdle.
18 „
- 6 „
- 3 11
JJ
9 „
_
_
5
7
20 „
- 6 „
- 3 10
10 „
_
5
5
28 „
- 8 „
- 3 6
30 „
- 8 „
- 3 5
„
11 „
-
-
5
3
J?
45 ,,
- 10 „
- 2 8
12 „
-
-
5
1
48 „
- 10 „
- 2 7
..
13 „
_
4
10
50 „
- 10 „
- 2 5
60 „
- 20 „ •
- 2 3
14 „
-
-
4
7
?>
15 „
'
-
4
6
Mop Nalls.
16 „
-
-
4
6
V
17 „
-
-
4
4
8, (1.
_
4
3
Strong
-
4 8 per bdle.
Fine
-
5 2
22 „
•
*
4
1
5>
Back Nalls.
Fine Rose.
8. d.
s.
d.
2 in.
-
- 5 2 per bdle.
2 lbs. -
-
-
14
0 per bdle.
24 „
-
- 4 9
5?
24 „ -
-
-
12
4
JJ
3 „
-
- 4 8
5?
3 „ -
-
-
10
10
JJ
O 1
and larger
- 4 3
34 >>
-
-
9
6
}>
4 „ -
-
-
8
7
3?
Fine Clasp.
14 „ -
5 „ -
-
-
7
7
9
9
33
S. (1.
8. d.
54 „ -
-
7
3
33
16 oz.
0 81 per. m. 30 8 per bdle.
6 „ -
-
-
6
8
»
H lbs.
0 8S „
24 6
>>
64 „ -
-
-
6
2
33
^2 JJ
0 .81- „
20 5
7 „ -
-
6
0
35
2 „
0 8f „
16 1
74 „ -
-
-
5
10
21 „
0 81 „
14 3
„
8 -
-
-
5
8
24 „
0 91 „
13 10
>>
9 „ -
-
-
5
6
21 „
0 91 „
12 7
n >
10 „ -
-
-
5
4
33
3 „
0 9i „
11 10
,,
11 „ -
5
2
31 „
0 91 „
10 11
•i
12 „ -
.
5
1
34 „
0 91 „
10 5
13 „ -
.
.
4
10
31 „
0 94 „
9 9
»
14 „ -
4
7
^ )»
0 10
9 7
15 „ -
4
6
0 10
9 0
44 »
0 10
8 G
16 „ -
-
-
4
6
33
5 „
0 101 „
8 5
5>
17 „ -
-
■
4
4
33
54 „
0 lOf „
7 10
18 „ -
•
-
4
3
33
6 „
0 101 „
7 2
19 „ -
-
-
4
2
33
64 „
0 11
6 9
20 „ -
-
-
4
2
33
7 „
0 114
6 9
??
22 „ -
-
-
4
0
33
Best Fine, 1 d.
per m. extra.
24 „ -
-
-
3
11
33
26 „ .
3
9
Extra Fine,
2 d. extra.
28. „ -
.
3
8
Wing, 1 d. extra.
30 „ -
-
•
3
7
33
( 11 .)
4 s 4
692
APPENDIX TO DEPORT FROM THE
Best Rose and Sample.
g.
d.
9 lbs.
-
-
6
3 per bdle.
10 ,,
-
-
6
0
,,
11 „
-
-
5
10
??
12 „
-
-
5
9
•>
11 „
-
-
3
16 ,,
-
-
5
0
18 ,,
-
-
4
9
•>
20 „
-
-
4
8
JJ
-
-
4
7
j,
24 „
-
-
4
3
?>
26 ,,
-
-
4
0
•1
28 „
-
-
3
11
32 „
-
-
3
7
36 .,
-
-
3
5
??
40 „
-
-
3
3
..
45 „
-
4 in. -
3
1
60 „
-
4-'
2
10
70 „
-
- -
o
7
-•>
Fine Knee.
s. d.
to 4 in. - - 3 7 per Ixllc.
Larger - - - 3 4
Clout.
s.
d.
d.
If lbs.
0
6f
per m.
13 10 per bdle
O
?)
0
7
,,
12
10
..
OX
*'4-
n
0
99
11
10
2^
•)
0
11
3
11
2f
>>
0
7f
JJ
10
7
99
3
>>
0
n
>?
9
11
99
0
8
51
9
5
99
31
0
GO
99
9
0
3|
0
81
8
5
•1
4
jj
0
CO
1?
8
2
0
QO
7
8
99
1^
99
0
81
99
7
3
5
99
0
9
•9
7
3
99
51
99
0
91
99
6
11
99
6
99
0
10
99
6
8
99
61
99
0 lOf
99
6
4
,9
7
99
0
lOf
99
6
3
99
71
‘ a
99
0
Hi
,,
6
3
99
8
99
1
0
99
6
3
99
9
9>
1
R-
99
6
3
99
10
99
1
i|
99
5
10
99
11
99
-
-
.5
8
99
12
99
-
-
5
8
99
14
99
-
-
5
4
16
99
-
-
5
4
,,
18
99
-
-
,5
2
•5
20
99
-
-
5
0
99
28
99
-
-
4
4
99
40
99
-
-
3
11
99
Fine Slate Nails, 1 d.
per m. extra.
Fine Clout and Flats.
li lbs.
g. d.
0 9
per m
s.
18
d.
5 per bdle
2
^ 99
0 91
;i
17
5
2i „
0 9f
51
15
11
99
01.
*-2 99
0 10
•)
15
0
99
05.
-4 ?>
0 lOf
14
0
99
3 „
0 10.1
99
13
5
99
3f „
0 10,1
99
12
5
99
31 „
0 lOf
..
11
9
99
Fine Clout and Flouts — contd.
g. d. g. d.
3f lbs. 0 lOf per m. 11 0 per bdle.
4
99
0 11
„ 10 7
H
99
0 111-
„ 10 2
n
99
0 Ilf
„ 10 0
5
,,
1 0
„ 9 7
51
99
1 Oi
0 1
(i
,,
1 1
„ 8 8
6i
99
1 1.1
9 8 3
7
99
1 2
55 b 2 „
H
99
1 2i
99 /II fy
8
99
1 3
99 7 10
9
99
1 4
5J 7 / ,,
Fine Flats, 2 d. per m. extra.
Round Pail and Round Trunk,
\\d.
per m. extra.
Csk. Clouts.
g. d.
A d.
3f
lbs.
0 IH
perm. 11 9 per bdle.
4
0 Hi
9 11 0 ,,
J.
1 0
9 10 3 ,,
5
99
1 R
9 10 7
5i
I If
9 0 8 „
6
99
1 11
9 0 0 ,,
6.1
1 2
9 8 7
7
99
1 21
9 8 6 ,,
R
99
1 3
9 8 2
8
99
1 3f
8 2
9
99
1 5
9 8 0
10
1 6
9 7 8
11
1 7
9 7 4
12
99
1 8
9 7 3
14
99
1 lOf
9 0 11
16
99
2 1
9 6 11 ,,
18
2 2
9 0 5 .,
20
55
2 3>
9 0 2
24
2 6
9 5 8
28
55
2 8
9 3 2
91
"2
in.
-
- 4 7 ,,
3
99
-
- - 4 0
31
„
-
- 3 9 ,,
4
55
-
- - 3 6
41
.
- 3 3
Cone-head Nails same price.
Fine Csk. Clout.
2 d. per m. extra.
Rivets
8
oz.
s.
0
d.
5,1
per m.
s.
33
d.
0 per bdle.
10
55
0
51
55
26
9
55
12
0
51
55
23
10
55
14
55
0
5.1
55
21
0
55
16
55
0
5J
55
20
2
55
18
55
0
5f
17
11
55
20
55
0
5f
55
16
1
55
R
55
0
5f
55
13
,5
55
If
55
0
5f
55
11
9
55
2
55
0
6
11
0
55
91
“J
55
0
6
„
9
9
55
2i
55
0
6
55
9
0
55
55
0
6
55
8
2
55
3
55
0
6J
55
8
0
55
31
55
0
6i
55
7
4
55
3i
55
0
55
6
10
55
3f
0
H
55
6
5
55
4
55
0
61
55
6
2
55
Rivets — continued.
s.
d.
g.
d.
4i oz. 0
6.i per m.
5
6 per bdle.
5
, 0
Of 9
5
5 9
5.1
, 0
7] 9
5
3
6
0
7.i 9
4
10
7
0
7i 9
4
i
8
, 0
8 9
4
2
9
, 0
8-i 9
4
0 9
10
, 0
0
3
10
12
^ 0
10 „
3
7 9
14
, 0
lOf .,
3
4 9
18
, 1
n 9
3
3
20
, 1
oi
-.| 55
3
2 9
24
, 1
5 ,y
3
2
30
, 1
8
3
0
40
, 2
0^- „
2
0
Fine Hurdle, Kent Hurdle,
and Fine Tray.
d.
9 lbs.
-
-
- 9
0 per bdle.
10 „
-
-
- 8
6 ,.
11 9
-
- 8
1 9
12 9
-
7
10 ,.
14 9
-
- 7
1
16 „
-
- 6
8
18 9
-
- 6
3
20 9
-
5
10
22
-
- 5
9
26 ,,
-
- 5
7 9
30 „
-
6
4
Gate Nails.
g.
d.
16 lbs.
- 2
in.
- 6
0 per bdle.
25 „
- 2i
- 5
2
32 „
- 3
55
- 4
10
40 ,,
- 31
55
- 4
5
48 9 *
- 4
55
- 4
2 9
Cooler.
g.
d.
18 lbs.
- 2
in.
- 6
9 per bdle.
22
- 2f
55
- 6
1
20 9
- 2i
55
- 5
8
30 9
- 2f
15
- 5
6
36 „
- 3
55
- 5
4
40 „
- 31
55
- 5
1
Fine Essex
Hurdle and
Wooldiug.
g.
d.
14 lbs.
. 2
ill.
- 8
7 per bdle.
16 „
-
- 8
2
" j,
18 9
- 21
- 7
5 9
22 „
- 21
- 7
3
28 ,,
- 3
55
- 6
5 ,.
30 9
- 3
55
- 6
0
36 ,,
- 3>
55
- 5
9
Scupper.
g.
d.
5 lbs.
-
-
- 8
1 per bdle.
6 9
-
-
- 7
6 9
7 9
-
-
- 6
10
8 9
-
-
- 6
6 9
9 9
-
-
- 6
2
10 9
-
-
- 5
8
12 9
-
-
- 5
5 9
Fine 3 d.
per m. extra.
SELKCT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM,
693
Clasp, Mearn Round Welsh
Patent and Duncli Hobs.
12 oz.
.V.
0
d.
Gi per m.
s.
28
d.
2 per bdle.
It „
0
24
!)
„
1C „
0
6*
22
9
„
18 ,,
0
Gi
20
3
„
20 „
0
Gi
„
18
3
r
22
0
Gi
16
7
lbs. 0
6f
1.5
9
If „
0
7
»?
14
4
„
2 „
0
7f
J*
13
4
5)
2f „
0
7f
11
10
n „
0
7^^
11
3
?)
2f „
0
7f
10
7
3 „
0
8
10
3
„
3f „
0
8f
J»
9
tl
„
3i „
0
8i
J*
9
4
J’
3f „
0
8f
5?
8
11
J)
t „
0
!*
1?
8
8
J)
H V
0
9
)>
8
2
tj J!
0
9
7
8
J)
5 „
0
H
7
G
??
H ..
0
10
7
3
c »
0
101
7
0
f J
C.i „
0 10^
>»
6
6
7 „
0
11
6
.5
„
0
m
G
3
8
1
0
G
3
I?
9 „
1
Of
V
G
0
)J
10 „
1
n
J'
5
9
11
1
2i
t}
6
7
12 „
1
31
,,
5
7
13 „
1
4
Ji
5
4
Bill Tackcts, same price.
Shoe Bills, 3 d. less.
Round Bills, rf. less.
Half Fine Hobs, | d. extra.
Fine Hobs, H d. extra.
Snap die Cre.ss, 2 d. extra.
Snap Taper, to 5 lbs., l^d. extra ;
above 5 lbs., 2 d. extra.
Hand-made Square, 2 d. extra.
Hand-made Taper, 4 d. extra.
Improved Square, 2 d. extra.
Improved Taper, 4 d. extra.
Shoe Stubbs, 4 d. extra.
Clinkers, 3 d. extra.
Best Clinkers, 5 d. extra.
French Clinkers, G d. extra.
Best Hobs, 1 d. extra.
All extras at per m.
Ridfre Cress and Spanish
Best Clout —
continued.
Hobs—
continued.
s. d.
s. d.
s. d.
3 lbs.
0 lOf per m.
13 9 i)cr Ixllc.
5 lbs.
-
-
12 2 [)cr bdle.
3f „
0 11 „
13 0
oi
-
-
11 G
3i „
0 Hi „
12 7
c ,,
-
-
10 9
3f „
0 Hi „
11 9
Ci „
-
-
10 G
4 „
0 Hi „
11 0
7
■
■
10 G
4i „
1 0 „
10 3
n „
-
-
10 0
3 „
1 Oi „
10 0
8 „
-
•
9 10 „
„
1 li V
9 10
9 „
-
-
9 3 „
G „
1 2 „
9 4 ,.
10 „
-
-
8 9 „
Gi „
1 2i „
8 11
12 „
-
-
8 2 „
7 „
1 3
8 !) „
13 „
-
-
7 9 „
8 „
1 4 „
8 4 ,.
9
1 4-f „
7 11
Best Home
or
Tic Hobs.
10 „
1 5 „
7 3
■s. d.
Bore Tip, 1 d. per m. less.
If lbs.
-
-
22 10 per bdle.
Double Deep Ck. Tip,
4 d. per m. extra.
If „
-
-
20 2
2 „
-
-
18 4
Countersunk Horse Tip Nails.
2f „
-
-
16 8
s. d.
8. d.
2i „
-
-
IG 0
li lbs.
0 9f per m.
21 7 per bdle.
3 „
-
-
14 6
If „
0 9i „
19 C
3f „
-
-
13 9
2
0 10
18 4
3^ „
-
-
13 8
2f .
0 lOf „
IG 9
3f „
-
-
13 0
2i „
0 lOi „
15 9 „
4 „
-
-
12 6
2| „
0 11 „
15 0 „
4f „
-
-
12 0 „
3 „
0 111 „
14 8
4*
-
-
11 G
3f „
0 Hf „
13 10
5
-
-
11 0
3^ „
1 0
13 2
,,
-
-
10 3
3f „
1 Oi ,.
12 G „
0 „
-
-
10 0
4 „
1 Oi „
12 0
6^ „
-
-
9 7
H „
1 1 „
11 1
7 „
-
-
9 5 „
5 „
1 li
10 10
8 „
-
-
8 9 „
9 „
-
-
8 4 „
Wherry Clench.
10 „
_
_
8 0
8. d.
11
-
-
7 C „
18 oz.
-
26 4 per bdle.
12 „
-
-
7 G
If lb.
-
cc
13 ,,
-
-
7 2
If „
.
21 8
14 ,.
-
-
G 9
2 „
-
18 4
IG „
-
-
G 8
2f ,.
-
IG 0
18 „
-
-
G 3
3 ..
.
13 11
4 ,.
- _ -
11 0
Flemish Tacks.
d.
Rose Clench.
4 to 14 oz.
.
6.J per m.
IG „ 18
5»
-
- Of ,.
2 a. per m. over Rose.
20 -
-
-
- C
Slender Clench.
24 -
-
-
- Cj
3 d. per m. over Rose.
Best and Fine Flemish Tacks.
d.
Fine Brush.
Ridge Cress and Spanish
1 to 2 oz.
-
8,| per m.
Hobs.
2i „ 4 „ - -
-
7f „
18 to 20 oz. - . 0 11
per
.V. d.
5 „ 9 „ - -
-
7i „
- 0 Hf
li lbs. -
- 22 10 per bdle.
10 - - - -
-
7f „
If
- - - - 0 11-i
If -
- 20 2
12 to 14 oz.
-
8 „
2
- 1 0
2 „
- 18 4
}5
16 - - - -
-
8f „
2f
- - - - 1 Of
2f „ -
- 17 10
>>
18 to 20 oz.
-
8i „
2i
- 1 0|
2i „ -
- 17 G
24 - - - -
-
8f „
2f
- 1 1
>1
2f „ -
- 16 0
3
- - - - 1 li
3 -
- 15 2
„
Best Clout.
3f „ -
- 14 0
J3
8. d.
.9. d>
Round Heads.
3i „ -
- 13 8
If lbs. 0 9 per m.
8 5
per bdle.
.e. fl
3f „ -
- 12 10
JJ
2 „ 0 9i ,. 17 5
7
to 10 oz. - - 0 Gf per
4 „ -
- 12 10
2f „ 0 9f „ 15 11
12
,, 20 ,, - - 0 7
4i -
- 12 2
o
o
li
- - - - 0 7i
11
4i „ -
- 12 2
JJ
2f „ 0 lOi „ 14 14
31
If
- 0 8
11
4 T
( 11 .)
694
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE
Round Clout.
s.
d.
2 and 2^ lbs.
-
0
8| per m.
21 - - -
-
0
n
3 - - -
-
0
10
5 - - -
-
1
01
??
7 - - -
-
1
21
>1
Battins.
s.
d.
5 and 6 oz.
-
0
H
per m.
7 „ 8 „
-
0
if
10 „ 11 „ -
-
0
5
12 oz. -
-
0
51
14 „ - - -
-
0
5f
16 „ - - -
-
0
6
i1
18 to 20 oz.
-
0
H
11 lbs.
-
0
7
If ,, - -
-
0
7J-
2
-
0
8
»
21 „ - -
-
0
81
2^ „ - ■
-
0
81
2| „ - -
-
0
9
>>
3 and 31 lbs.
-
0
91
>>
4 lbs.
-
0
10
tl „
-
0
101
5 „ - -
-
0
111
5 „ - -
-
1
01
Fine Battins.
s.
d.
1 to 2 oz. -
-
0
61
per m.
21 oz. - 1 in.
-
0
5f
i „ - -
-
0
5f
5 „ - 1 in.
-
0
51
5 „ - -
-
0
51
5)
7 „ - -
-
0
5|
))
8 „ - ^ in.
-
0
9 „ ■ -
-
0
5?
If
10 and 1 1 oz. f in.
-
0
6
>)
12 oz.
-
0
61
14 „ - - |in.
-
0
6f
16 „ - - -
-
0
7
18 „ - - 1 in.
-
0
71
J?
20 „ - - -
-
0
71
))
11 lbs. - 11 in.
-
0
H
5>
H . - -
-
0
9
2 „ - l|in.
-
0
01
It
H „ - -
-
0
9|
ft
21 „ - Hin.
-
0
10
yt
2f „ - -
-
0
101
ti
3 „ - -
-
0
11
tt
.31 „ - If in.
-
0
11
tf
4 lbs.
5 „
6 „
7 „
Fine Battins — continued.
s. d.
0 pel' HI-
1 0 „
1 H „
1 2 „
2 in.
■>A
1 3
- 2^ „
Extra Fine, 1 d. over to 18 oz.;
above, 1 4 rf.
Double Extra, 2d. over to 1 in.;
above, 3 d.
Treble Extra, 3 d. over to 1 in.;
above, 4^ d.
Coach Brads and Fine Flat Battins,
21
H
3
31
4
n
5
6
7
8
9
10
12
14
16
18
20
1 3
1?
2
3.
H
4
4i
^2
n
9
1 10
1 101
01
2i
22 5
21 0
19 2
17 0
15 4
14 1
14 0
12 4
11 5
10 11
10 5
9 7
8 10
8 2
7 8
7 2
6 11
Tenter Hooks — continued,
s. d. s. d.
24 lbs. 2 9^ per m. 6 3 per bdle.
28 ,. 2 Ui „ 5 9 „
Round Bill, 2 d. per m. extra.
Fine Hooks, 2 d. per m. extra.
Tuckers, 1 s. per m. extra.
Fine Tuckers, 1 s. 6 d. per m. extra.
Cloth Hooks, 6 d. per m. extra to 5 lbs.;
above 5 lbs., 8 d. per m. extra.
Barrel Hooks, price as Common Clout.
Yields.
1 d. extra.
21 to 4 oz. -
-
-
30 lbs.
5 oz. -
-
321 »
Iron Tacks.
5 „ -
-
-
33 „
* t7 '
-
-
35 „
X. d.
8 and 9 oz. -
.
-
36 „
16 oz. to 11 lb.
0 61 per m.
10 oz. -
.
-
36 1 „
11 oz.
- 0 6f
tt
11 „ -
-
-
37 „
If »
- 0 7
it
12 and 13 oz.
-
.
39 „
2 and 2^ oz.
- 0 7i
yy
14 oz. -
-
-
40 „
21 oz.
- - 0 71
ty
15 „ -
-
-
41 „
2f „
- 0 7f
ty
1 lb. to 11 lb.
-
-
42 „
3 „
- • 0 8f
}j
If lb. -
-
-
43 „
31 !,
1
o
GO
ti
2 and 2f lbs.
-
-
44 „
4 to 41 oz.
- 0 91
„
21 „ 2f „
-
-
45 „
Best,
1 d. extra.
3 „ 41 „
-
-
46 „
F ine,
11 d. extra.
5 „ 6 „
-
-
48 „
7 lbs. -
-
-
49 „
Tenter Hooks.
8 - -
-
-
50 „
9 and 11 lbs.
-
-
51 „
d’. d.
s. d.
12 „ 14 „
-
-
-
52 „
11 lbs. 1 01 per m. 35 0 per bdle.
15 lbs. -
-
-
-
521 >7
11 „ 1 Of
„ 29 9
ti
16 and 19 lbs.
-
-
-
53 „
If „ 1 1
„ 26 7
„
20 lbs. -
-
-
-
531 ,7
2 „ 1 11
„ 24 9
5J
22 „ and larger
-
-
-
54 „
Cooler, Fine Essex Hurdle
and Woolding.
2 in.
21 „
21 „
Fine Hurdle.
9 to 11 lbs. -
12 „ 17 „ - - -
18 lbs. and larger
Fine Tray.
2 and 2J in.
21 „ 3 „ - -
31 in. and larger
50 Ibs-
50 „
51 „
50 lbs
51 „
52
- 51 lbs.
- 52 „
- 53 „
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
695
Appendix T.
PAPERS handed in by Mr. B. Hingley, M.P., 21 March 1889.
DUMMY OR FALSE CERTIFICATE.
Ceadley Heath Chain Testing Works.
This is to certify that a gth-inch short link chain, 15 fathoms in length, and weighing
Ton. Cwt. Qrs. Lbs.
0 : 1 : 2 : 0 has been proved and found capable of sustaining a degree of tension
Ton. Cwt. Qrs. Lh.
equal to 1 : 12 : 2 : 0, being the Admiralty test.
A.B. No. 270 stamped on the end link.
(signed) .James Billivgham, Superintendent.
24 February 1888.
DUMMY OR FALSE CERTIFICATE.
Cradley Heath Chain Testing Works.
This is to certify that a short link chain cable Ith, 15 fathoms in length, and weighino-
Tons. Cwt. Qrs. Lbs.
f* 3 : 2 : 10 has been proved and found capable of sustaining a deoree of
Tons. Cwt. Qrs. Lbs.
tension equal to 4 : 12 : 2 : 0 being the Admiralty test.
No. stamped on the end link. T. P. 1888.
(signed) Thomas Coley, Superintendent.
22 February 1888. ^
DUMMY OR FALSE CERTIFICATE.
Cradley Heath Chain Testing Works.
This is to certify that a | short link cable chain, 15 fathoms in length, and weio-hinsr
Tons. Cwt. Qrs. lbs. ^
• 5 : 0 : 14 has been proved and found capable of sustaining a deoree of
Tons. Cwt. Qrs. lbs. ^
tension equal to 6 : 15 : 0 : 0, being the Admiralty Test.
No. 167 stamped on the end link.
22 February 1888.
(signed) J. Williams, Superintendent.
(ID)
4 T 2
696
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE
AUTHORIZED CERTIFICATE OF TEST FOR SMALL CHAINS.
Proving House. — Netherton.
[This Form Is not to be used as a Certificate of Test of Chain Cables or Anchors.]
No. 6000
Netherton, 188 .
This is to certify that* weighing not. qrs. lbs., has been tested to
tons. cAvt. qrs. lbs., and subsequently examined, and did not show any
defect, and has been max’kedf
N.B . — This Certificate is not granted under the Chain Cable and Anchor Acts, nor is
it intended to certify that any test has been applied to the above-named article in accord-
ance with the provisions of the Chain Cable and Anchor Acts, or of any Act.
Length of Link inches.
Breadth of ditto inches.
Superintendent.
* Here describe the Article tested.
t Here describe the Marks, which must not be the same as those used for marking
Chain Cables or Anchors.
AUTHORIZED CERTIFICATE.
Lloyd’s Proving House — Netherton, for Testing Anchors and Chain Cables.
Licensed by the Board of Trade, under the Chain Cables and Anchors Acts, 1864, to
1874 (27 & 28 Viet. c. 27 ; 34 & 35 Viet. c. 101, and 37 & 38 Viet. c. 51).
L.P.H.— N. BT.
Breaking Machine No. •\i««
Tensile Machine No. ./
No. of this Certificate . at .l tv h ,
JNetherton, near Dudley, 188 .
This is to certify that the Chain Cable described herein has been proved
at the above establishment to the appropriate strains for the size of cable, as set forth in
the Schedule of the Order in Council, dated the 12th day of May 1874, which Order in
Council specifies the various breaking and tensile strains to be applied to Chain Cables,
by Apparatus and Machinery licensed subsequently to the 1st of January 1873, by the
Board of Trade, and at present licensed by the Board of Trade, and has been examined,
after having been tested, weighed, and marked as under; and that the following
particulars are correct.
Cwt. qrs. lbs. Number of Swivels
Total length of Chain
Link
Size inch
Weight
No. of Shackles
Joining End
Length of Link
Breadth of ditto
Breaking Strain (applied by Machine No. ) to 3 Links cut out of each length of
15 fathoms.
Tensile Strain (applied bv Machine No. ).
Mark L.P.H.— N. BT.
Maker’s Name . Intended for Ship Tons.
Per
Witness my hand.
Superintendent
Appointed by the Committee of Lloyd’s Register of British and Foreign Shipping.
This form of Certificate is only to be used when Cables are tested in
accordance with the Order in Council of the 12th May 1874.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
697
Appendix K.
PAPER handed in by Mr. J. L. Mahon, 29 March 1889.
SCHEME for the Re-organisation of the Chain and Nail-making Industry, by Mr.
J, L. Mahon. Approved by the Midland Counties Trades Federation,” and by
a Special Committee of Nail and Chain-makers selected by that Body.
The re-organisation of the chain-making industry is a comparatively simple matter.
The capital required is small ; the total number of chain-makers does not exceed 3,000.
The whole industry is confined to a few towns grouped closely together, and the foreign
competition counts for nothing.
At present the chain-maker does his work in a little smithy near his dwelling. He is
at the mercy of the “ fogger ” (sweater), who supplies him with material and pays
him for his labour. He is the prey of a host of profit-mongering middlemen, who
secure at least a dozen different profits off the chain from the time the iron leaves
the manufacturer till the finished chain reaches the user. The mai’ket price of
chains is quite high enough to give the chain-maker a wage that would at least put him
on an equality Avith other skilled artizans ; but it is divided up amongst a number of
people who do no useful part of the work, either of making or distributing chains, and
only a small fraction, a bare subsistence, ever reaches the labourer.
The solution of the difficulty lies in such a re-organisation of the industry as will
enable the chain-makers, (1) to obtain the iron direct from the manufacturer at its
market price ; (2) to avail themselves of the most improved means of production, the
most economical arrangement of their work, and the healthiest physical conditions in
which to perform it ; (3) to sell the products of their labour direct to those who want to
use them, instead of to dealers, whose only object is to retain a large profit, as the chains
pass through their hands. Two ways of effecting this are proposed: —
I. That Parliament should grant a sum of money sufficient to enable the local co-
operative productive societies to build suitable workshops, lay down working plant, and
establish agencies for carrying on the production and sale of chains and hand-made nails.
A commission could be appointed to supervise the S 2 iending oi' the grant, and to assist
the chain-makers in obtaining the commercial organisation, which, as well as the j^ro-
ductive, is essential to their success.
II. The second proposal is that an Act of Parliament should be jjassed, creating a
local board elected by the chain-makers, with the same pOAver of erecting and equipjAino-
Avorkshops and managing them, as a school board has of providing schools and managino-
education. The more important details are as follows : —
Constitution of Board. — The board Avould consist of, say, 10 members, and would hold
office tor one year. Every adult chain-maker, male and female, Avould have the right of
voting. The members Avould be paid, and besides deliberating and directing the general
affairs, Avould be the practical sujjerintendents of the workshops.
The board to have money advanced by the Government to erect and maintain Avork-
shops, to buy iron, and to establish Avarehouses or agencies for the sale of the chain&
Avherever necessary. The money advanced by the Government vvould be used to build
and equip the Avorkshops.
Finance. — The board Avould establish a Avorks fund. To this fund Avould be carried
the sums advanced by the Government, and the income from sale of chains, waste pro-
ducts, and all other sources. From this fund Avould be jAaid the interest on and repay-
ment of loans, maintenance and extension of Avorking plant, payment of labour, expense
of maintaining agencies, and all other expenses. A monthly audit of accounts could be
held, and a half-yearly balance-sheet issued, showing particulars of income and expen-
diture.
Wages and Working Hours. — A very simple and almost self-acting method could be
easily devised of regulating Avages and hours of labour, and adjusting them to the state
of the market and other Influences by Avhlch they Avould be affected.
When elected, the board would proceed at once with the erection of workshops, the
appointment of agents, the buying of iron, and the enrolment of workers. A list of all
(H.) 4 T 3 qualified
698
APPENDIX TO UEPORT FROM THE
qualified applicants would be made, and if all could not be engaged, the selection could
be made by lottery or any fair means of avoiding preference.
The board, on beginning work, would estimate as nearly as possible the necessary
working hours and the rate of wages it could pay for, say, the first six months. The
scale of prices for piece work could be revised from time to time, as also the wages paid
to agents, members of the board, and others, whose work did not admit of the same
system of payment being applied.
At the end of six months, or a less period, the accounts would be balanced. It would
tlien be seen whether a profit or a loss were being made, and the wages or working
hours, or both, altered accordingly. It would be advisable to start with the current
rate of wages, and, perhaps, a nine hours’ working day. When, at the balancing of
accounts, the amount of profit were shown, the wages could then be increased or the
working hours reduced as the workers preferred.
Adxmntages of the Scheme . — Such a scheme would place the responsibility directly in
the hands of the workers, it would encourage independence and self-reliance, and would
make the labourer practically master of his own lot. It is very far from being a com-
plete realisation of the best principles of co-operation or socialism. The iron manufac-
turers on one hand, and the chain users on the other, would still have to be dealt with on
commercial terms ; while the whole scheme would depend for success upon making its
way in the competitive market like any other capitalist business. Amongst themselves
the members would be co-operators ; to the outside world they woidd be an ordinary
trading company. The really practical advantages of the scheme may be summarised
thus : That the actual worker would be free from the parasitical middleman, the fogger
or sweater, who now preys upon his necessities, and face-to-face with the manufacturer
who supplies his materials and the public who use the product of his labour, in a position
to make the best terms he could with both.
The little smithies in which the woi’k is now done are dirty, ill-lighted, over-crowded,
too scattered and numerous to be properly supervised, and in every way inconvenient.
The large workshops which would replace them would admit of ample space, light, and
proper arrangements. Although no machinery can be applied to the process of welding
the links, the labour could be greatly lightened in other ways by the steam hammer, fan,
or cutting machine. In the conveyance of the materials to the works, and of the finished
chains aAvay again, very much greater economy is possible in a few large woi’ks than in a
hundred small ones The employment of young children and women, and the working
hours of all, could be regulated without difficulty, whereas it is practically impossible
to send inspectors to every man’s back yard to find out if he is breaking or obeying the
law.
The responsibility cast upon the workers would tend to stimulate their energies, train
their best faculties, bring out those qualities of foresight, organisation, and initiative, and
impart that manliness and dignity which will raise these unfortunate people from the
degradation which is the inevitable result of their present system of work.
There is nothing in the starting of the scheme which a commission of practical business
men, acting with a committee of chainmakers, could not deal with in a few months.
There is nothing in the carrying on of the system which would tax the abilities of a score
of men of average intelligence and thorough knowledge of the trade. Every detail is
easy of comprehension, and every part of the work easy of execution.
The foregoing pages prove, and even the Conservative Government admits, that action
of some sort is immediately necessary. The above proposals may be open to gi’ave
objections. The writers do not bind themselves to either of the schemes ; but they feel
that the present condition of things is intolerable. They intend to stir up an agitation
that will compel Parliament to deal with the question in some way, and it remains for
those who object to these schemes to formulate better ones. If Parliament can vote
money to expatriate the Crofters, it might vote some to keep the Chainmakers at home ;
if it can pass English and Irish drainage schemes and land purchase bills to benefit land-
lords and mine owners, it might also legislate to enable these poor and industrious
workers to get the fair fruits of their labour. These men want no charity ; they simply
demand that they shall be placed in such a position that they will be (ree from the
oppression of the sweaters, and able to earn their own bread in the sweat of their brows,
and in peace with their neighbours.
A committee has been formed to agitate this question and demand legislation. Mr. C.
A. V. Conybeare, M.P., Queen Anne’s Mansions, London, S.W., Treasurer ; and Mr. J.
L. Mahon, 51, Bedford-row, London, W.C., Secretary.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
699
Appendix L.
PAPER handed in by Mr. C. W. Houre. 29 March 1889.
Sir, Wolverhampton, 2 February 1889.
I ESTIMATE my district to cover an area of 1,955 square miles, with a population of
480,000.
In contains 1,628 factories, and over 3,000 workshops ; a large number of the works
only require occasional visits.
1 object to the following paragraphs in Mr. Burnett’s Report, page 6, line 5 ; page 13,
line 30; page 17, line 37- ; page 44, lines 15 and 22 ; page 45, line 37 ; and I submit that
his use of the word “ domestic,” as applied to workshops is misleading.
The trades of this district, in which sweating is largely carried on, are nail, and chain,
and tailoring.
Nailmaking is now carried on round Dudley and Halesowen. The spikes and larger
nails are made by men, aided by women and lads, and the smaller by women, girls, and
lads, and a very few children under 13 years of age.
The custom is for the nailer to go to the warehouse and take out a bundle of iron
weighing 56 or 60 lbs., make it into the sized nails required, and on the day appointed
for weighing to take back the nails, which are reckoned at eight quarters to the bundle,
and get paid for them at the list price, less a percentage. After the last strike, about 1 5
mouths ago, the nail masters agreed to pay the 1879 list, less 10 per cent. ; they very soon,
however, made the 10 into 20, and soon after, on small sizes and hobs, into 30.
The week’s work of the females in the shops is four and a half days, say 49 hours; they
do not work on a Monday except to procure the iron from the warehouse, and on Saturday
morning they usually weigh in their work. The time occupied in getting out the iron
and weighing in the nails averages from four to five hours a week, for which nothing is
paid ; many having to carry their 60 lbs. of iron over half-a-mile, and it is no uncommon
thing for a nailer to have to make two journeys to a warehouse before she can get iron.
Where a nailer works for a warehouse direct her wages are miserably small, often from
2 s. 6 <7. to 4 a. a week, but others are still worse off, for the master, for those nails he may
only want occasionally or in a hurry, goes to a middleman or fogger ; this man gets the
nails made and usually deducts 4 <7. per bundle for carriage fromivliat he pays the maker;
he also, by other means, such as having the nails made a spurious size, and getting them
weighed in as a more expensive nail, manages to rob the maker. Thus, a master wants
4-lb. hobs, now paid at 8 s. 8 r?. a bundle ; the fogger orders 4^-lb. hobs made small ; these
are priced at 7 s. 8 d., which the fogger will pay, less 4 cl. for carriage, but he will get
them weighed at the warehouse as 4-lb. hobs. Again, a nailer takes her nails, and is told
they are above the size, and can only be taken in as a cheaper nail.
One tells me of a fogger who takes seven quarters of nails, and 4| d. for a bundle ol
iron ; on that day iron was 3 s. a bundle. The fogger will divide a bundle of iron, but
charges extra for so doing. The nailer is often driven to buy a small quantity to make up
a deficiency in the weight of her nails, her bundle of iron not having yielded the full tally
of nails.
Another way in which the nailer is robbed is, when the nails are ordered a bundle of
rods is supplied which cannot possibly make the required nails. When she takes the nails
to be weighed, she has to submit to their being classed as a cheaper size ; for what they
are sold at the warehouse 1 do not know. My informant says this is one of the greatest
evils in the trade ; he also says the uomen are bantered at the warehouses.
As a home industry the nailers do not look for high wages, but a very common expres-
sion I hear of late among the)n is, “ If we don’t get better prices we are like to be
clemmed,” and it sounds like the truth, for out of their earnings they have to pay for
firing, repairs of tools, and a part of their rent.
The spikemakers are a little better off; they had an increase of wages in June 1888.
On the price list it is described as 25 per cent, on the average wages paid by the masters
who were present. It is ridiculous describing it as a 25 per cent, increase, as on some
kinds it is not 5. 1 hear that the spikemakers are asking for another rise. The follow-
ing shows the fall in prices of the larger spikes per bundle : —
s. d. s. d.
5-inch, paid in ] 874 - - - - - 2 7 1888 - 1 3
6 „ „ - - - - 21 ,, - -10
8 „ „ ) 5 " ~ ~ - -16 „ - — 8
These are made by men, and in the early part of 1888 were paid for at 1 s., 8 d,, and 6 <7.,
and in some instances the makers had to pack them, after they carried them to the ware-
houses, in casks.
( 11 .)
4 T 4
Then
70U
APPENDIX TO KEPORT FROM THE
Then there are the stajile-makers ; they are paid nearly as low wages as the nailers,
but will earn a litle more money, as they work rather longer hours. They are often
given coiled iron to make from, and this is delivered at their workshops ; the master can
buy it cheaper than rods, and the good master pays the workers 3 d. a bundle for straighten-
ing, but the worker prefers rods, as in them the iron is more reliable, and there is less
waste ; 56 lbs. is reckoned a bundle, and for that weight 52 lbs. of staples have to be re-
turned, and in the small sizes it is impossible to make the weight from coiled iron. The
prices now being paid are as follows, with an additional 3 d. if made from coiled wire : —
s. d.
l|-inch at - - - 2 4| a bundle.
n „ - - - 2 li „
If „ and upwards at - 2 - ,,
A fogger will deduct 2 d. for carriage. Five years ago, Mrs. A. says, the price paid
was double. The maker has to pay for the cost of getting the staples to the warehouses.
In large sizes she can earn 4 s. 6 a week, and in small a good hand will earn 6 s. 3 d.
The delay in commencing the week’s work causes the svorkers to work later on Thurs-
day and Friday, and in some cases leads to violating the Factory and Workshop Act. As
a rule this work is carried on by wives, and women renting a block or stall, commonly
known as stallers ; these are virtually occupiers, and their hours of labour cannot be
interfered with ; a third class are adult women working where none under 18 years of
age are employed. These never seem to make 10| hours of ivork before 8 p.m., and
very often not until 9 p m.
The following cases tell of wages paid during the past summer: —
A woman says : “ I made 5,000 hobs last week, for which I was paid 2 s.l\d. I con-
sider it a good Aveek’s Avork, having to look after the house and a child.”
Another says : “ For hobs they used to pay 11s. dd. a bundle ; now they pay 6 s. 3d.-,
and they Avill only let me have half a bundle a Aveek.”
Another says : “ I get 2 s. 6 rf. a bundle for making rivets ; in a full week I can
earn 4 s.”
Another says : “ I make 5 lbs. fine (nails). I am noAV paid 7 s. 5 rf. a bundle ; a good
AvorkAvoman might earn 5 s. in a full Aveek.”
A man says : “ I Avork at times making frost nails (a kind of hoi'se nail) ; Avhen I can I
Avork for the farriers and get jiaid 7 d. a pound ; if I have to work for a warehouse 1 only
get 2| f?. ; for another kind I get 3 d., and I hear they are .sold at Is. a pound; in this
the latter prices do not include the cost of iron.”
I do not find that the rivet-makers are any better paid than the nailers. In this
trade the men complain that Avoinen are given iron to AVork uj)on Avhich is too large, and
necessitates the use of a heavy “ Oliver” hammer. I think this trade is being killed by
steam machinery ; it is only a question of time.
Nail and chain trades are usually classed together, as they AVork side by side at times
in the same shops, but there is a vaiit difference in their prospects ; the latter trade is an
increasing trade, but is subject to periods of depression. The nailmakers are almost
entirely outAvorkers, but the larger chains are made in factories, the smaller being made
by outAvorkers. Those Avorking in factories can easily combine to get a fair day’s wage for
a fair day’s AVork, and they do ; but the poor outworkers living from hand to mouth, and
struggling for a bare existence, do not stand shoulder to shoulder, their very poverty
driving them to undersell their labour. This is peculiarly the case where they Avork for
small chain masters Avho stick to no particular list, but on Monday morning fix a price at
which they will give out Avork, and the eager toiler, fearing he may get no Aveek’s Avoi’k,
will agree to it, although he knoAvs he is working for too little, and he ought to get more.
The nailer has a price list to work to, and does not suffer in the same Avay.
Many of the small masters and foggers keep, directly or indirectly, provision shops, and
it is tacitly understood that those from Avhom they buy nails or chain shall lay out a por-
tion of their earnings in that shop, and when they do, they do not ahvays get good A'alue
for their money.
Where a fogger keeps a shop, many of his Avorkpeoj^le think it only fair, if he finds
them Avork to do, that they ought to deal at the shop, and they Avill go on doing so
although they find they are paying above the usual shop jirices for their purchases ; but
nearly every one Avill declare that they do so voluntarily, and not because they are com-
pelled. I cannot find one Avho admits being forced.
The chain trade is not interfered Avith by the competition of machinery, and the
mode of Avoi’king in it is carried on rather differently to the nail trade, for the iron is
generally delivered to the chainmakers and a charge of 2 d. per CAvt. made for
carriage.
Wages are supposed to be calculated on the Avage paid for making the chain of half-
inch iron.
After a long protracted strike some masters agreed to pay 4 s. per cwt. for the half-
inch, but OAving to the Avorkpeople, in their anxiety to make sure of a Aveek’s Avork,
underselling their labour, and the pressure of the foggers, the Avages paid for common
chain Avere soon knocked doAvn as low as 1 s. 9 d. and 2 s., if not less ; and, in addition,
these poor outworkers get fined for bad links, they get paid for chain as common chain
after taking extra care in making, and it is put upon the market as of a better quality,
the maker and consumer both being defrauded.
The
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
701
The fogger is employed in lliis trade also ; and, in addition, workmen in large works
will get iron from the warehouses and give it to others to make into chain ; they Avill then
weigh it in, and give the maker a part of the |)rice j)aid.
The hours of work are longer than in the nails trade, more especiall}^ with the men,
many of whom Avork I'rom 65 to 70 hours a week ; the women, wliere only adult women
work, and the “ stallers,” also work very long hours.
A good workman Avill make 7^ cwt. of half-inch cliain in a week, but Avill only clear
11 s. or 12 s. if he is paid but 2 s. a cwt. On lai’ger sizes the worker usually employs a
lad or girl to l)low, to whom he rvill jray 2 5 . 6 d. or 3 s. G d. a week, or, if the blovver
works two pairs of bellow^s, about 4 a'. Lads usually find it less laborious to stand on the
bellows to blow ; female blowers are becomiii'i much less numerous, as there are jdenty of
lads to be found, and many shops have now' got engines to blorv their fires.
The smaller chains are made by women, girls, and lads, and 3 s. has been no unusual
wages for a girl ol’ 17 years to draw for a week’s Avork if Avorking for a logger.
tiome masters, Avho do not put out best chain, give out orders for chain suitable for
export ; this is paid for at a Ioav price, but the AA'orkers put into it some 12 per cent, less
links, and thus make a larger quantity than they can of best chain, and earn as much
money. I’his chain goes by the name of “ slap-dash,” and the buyer suffers loss.
A man took a bundle of No. 6 iron to a shop to be Avorked up ; he there found a
Avoman making chain of No. 4 iron ; her bundle had but tAvo less rods in it than his
No. 6, Avhereas it ought to have had 12 rods less; here the Avoman was being defrauded,
as the 10 rods mean half a day’s Avork.
Another man says : “ An order Avill come for 9 links to the foot traces for export; this
the master tells the men to make, giving them iron Avhich Avill only make 7q links to the
foot, and they are paid for it at that price ; by this means both the Avorkman and the
customer is defrauded.”
In another case a fogger Avanted to buy a chain a man had made out of his own iron,
and agreed to pay at the 3 s. 6 d. list ; the chain Avas the sized iron called bare 7, about
seven-sixteenths of an inch. The fogger Avanted to Aveigh it as half-inch, and Avhen the
man, or rather his Avife, refused, he Avould not buy it.
lA^ages paid have varied so much during the past six months that it is impossible lo say
Avhat they are, but, oAving to the improvement in trade, and the publicity given to the
miserable Avages paid a fcAV months back, they have been increased from 30 to 50 per
cent, and upwards.
Agreements are made by young Avomen to be taught the chain trade. One says : “ I
am 17 years of age; I have been Avorking about three months; I began at 4 c/. a Aveek
for tw'O Aveeks, then 6 d. a Aveek lor tAvo Aveeks, then 2 s. 6 d. a Aveek for a month, and
now 1 am getting 85 d. in each shilling I earn. Last Aveek I earned 6 s. 3 d.” When a
worker becomes good, her teacher, Avho jjrovides firing, tools, and shop, Avill only deduct
3 c?. in 1 s. Tavo Avorkers say they are 18 years of age, they signed papers agreeing to
Avork for Mrs. R. for six mouths to learn chainmakino- the first three months Avithout
Avages, the last three at 2 s. 6 d. a Aveek. Mrs. R. believes if they go elsewhere she can
legally proceed against them for damages.
There is no doubt that the knoAvledge of an inquiry into the nail and chain trades, and
the publicity given by the neAvspapers to the miserable Avages being paid, has enabled the
workpeople in both trades to obtain a better price for their labour, and I sincerely hope
it may show them that what they most need is a determination to stand up for a proper
remuneration for their labour. It cannot be expected that philanthropy can be intro-
duced into these trades, and therefore the Avorkpeople should look to a union of each
trade to fi^ht for their rights.
The masters might Avell facilitate matters by undertaking to deliver the raAV material,
or paying carriage to the workpeople for conveying it to and from the Avarehouse ; and by
paying the fogger Avhen they employ him, and by resolutely setting their faces against
the Avorkpeopie being defrauded by him.
I am, &c.
(signed) C. C. W. Hoare,
R. E. S. Oram, Esq. Inspector of Factories,
4 U
( 11 .)
702
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE
Appendix M.
PAPER handed in by Mr. Evan C. Nepean, C.B., 29th March 1889.'
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Lieutenant Colonel Wallace for making up
lOjOOO Valises, pattern 1888, for the War Department ; Contract, 29th October
1888 (7127—3334).
Fitting
Seaming -
Corner piece
Fronts and gussets
- o
- n
H
War Office, Pall Mall, S.M^,
October 1888. (7127—3325.)
Welting -
Preparing
Riveting -
Machining
d.
_ 1
5
- 1
Evan Colville Vepra?i,
Director of Army Contracts.
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. Dolan ^ Co. for stitching Buff Valise
Equipment, on Contract dated 16th November 1888 (7127 — 3336).
Waist belts -
Pouches, 40 rounds
„ 30 „
Straps, coat -
„ mess tin
d.
- 2 I each.
- H „
- 7 „
' 3 dozen.
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W.,
November 1888. (7127—3336.)
Evan Colville Nepean,
Director of Army Contracts.
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. Hebbert ^ Co., for preparing and sewing
Buff Valise Equipment, on Contract dated 16th November 1888 (7127 — 3336).
Preparing.
Sewing
(average).
d.
d.
Waist belts
-
-
-
-
1| each
2 each.
Braces _ _ .
3 per pair.
—
Pouches, 40 rounds -
-
-
-
-
4 each.
5 each.
j5 30 ,,
-
-
-
-
6 „
8 „
Straps, coat
-
-
-
-
3 dozen
6 dozen.
„ mess tin
-
-
-
-
3 „
6 „
Evan Colville Nepean,
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W., Director of Army Contracts.
November 1888. (7127—3336.)
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM,
703
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. R. and J. Pullman, for sewing Buff Valise
Equipment, on Contract dated 24th November 1888 (7127 — 3365).
Waist belts
Pouches, 40 rounds -
„ 30 „ -
Straps, coat
,, mess tin
d.
at least 2 each.
4
99 ^ a
„ 6 ^ „
,, 3 dozen,
3 ,,
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W.,
November 1888, (7127 — 3365.)
Evan Colville Nepean,
Director of Army Contracts.
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Lieutenant Colonel Wallace for stitching Buff
Valise Equipment, on Contract dated 24th November 1888 (7127 — 3356).
Waist belts
Pouches, 40 rounds
„ 30 „
Straps, coat -
„ mess tin -
d.
2 each.
3| „
3 dozen
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W.,
November 1888. (7127 — 3356.)
E?mn Colville Nepeaji,
Director of Army Contracts.
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. D. Mason and Sons for Labour in
connection with their Contract for Harness and Saddlery, dated 18th December
1888 (7161—2049).
Description.
Dressing.
Cutting.
Preparing
and
Finishing.
Stitching.
Superin-
tending.
Officers’ Harness and Saddlery :
s. d.
s. d.
s. d.
s. d.
s. d.
Heads, bridle, portmouth bit each
— 1
^4
__ _1
2
- -1
I
1
4
Reins, bridoon bit - - „
- 1
- -i
2
- - 3 .
4
- -h
-
Saddles
1 2
1 -
7 4
1 5
- 6
Harness and Saddlery ;
Collars, head - - - each
- 4^
- 2
- 4^
1
o<
- 1
Sheepskins - - - «
-
- 6
1 6
1 ~
- n
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W.,
December 1888.
Evan Colville Nepean,
Director of Army Contracts.
( 11 .)
4 u 2
704
APPENDIX TO EEPOKT FROM THE
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Mr. W. Middlemore for Labour in connection with his
Contract for Harness and Saddlery for Household Cavalry, dated 18th December 1888
(7161—2049).
Description.
Cutting.
Stitching.
Preparing
and
Finishing.
Breastplates -
d.
1 each
d.
1 1 each.
d.
4^ each.
Collars, head, parade - - -
-
-
2 „
5 „
5 „
,, ,, stable - - -
-
-
2 „
H »
Cruppers -----
-
-
1 „
3 „
9 „
Keins, portmouth bit - - -
-
-
-1 „
1 „
4
Straps, cloak and wallet
-
-
3 dozen.
8 dozen.
7 dozen.
,, centre _ - - -
-
-
3 „
3 „
3
Surcingles -----
-
-
1 each.
2 each.
2 each.
Evan Cidville Nepean,
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W., Director of Army Contracts,
December 1888.
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. Hohson and Sons for preparing and stitching
Accoutrements for the War Department, on Contract dated 21st February 1889
(7127—3425).
Preparing.
Stitchinsr.
O
d.
d.
Belts, pouch. Line Cavalry, R. F., Mark II.
-
-
-f each
1^ each.
,, waist. Cadets, Sandhurst - - _
-
-
1
2 99
H
99
„ ,, „ Woolwich - _ -
-
-
1
^2 99
n
99
Carriages, sabretache -----
-
-
\
~-i 9f
1
2
99
Frogs, bayonet. Cadets -----
-
-
“S 5>
2
99
„ sword bayonet, Cadets - - - -
-
-
~i 55
2
99
„ „ Artillery - - -
-
-
3
4 99
n
99
Pouches, ammunition, expense, carbine
-
-
\L
^2 99
^2
99
Evan Colville Nepean,
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W., Director of Army Contracts.
14 March 1889. (7127—3425.)
LI ST of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. Dolan ^ Co. for stitching Accoutrements
for the War Department, on Contract dated 25th February 1889 (7127 — 3423).
d.
Pouches, ammunition - - - - - - "4^ each.
Braces, left - - -
„ right -in.
Belts, waist
Frogs, bayonet - -- -- -- -2„
Evan Colville Nepean,
Director of Army Contracts.
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W.,
27 March 1889.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
705
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Messrs. Hobson and Sons for preparing and stitching
Black Accoutrements, on Contract dated 28th February 1889 (7127 — 3424).
Preparing.
Stitching.
d.
d.
Knee Caps, musketry instruction - _ _ _ -
each
each
Pouches, ammunition, japanned, Cadets’, Woolwich -
1| „
5i „
,, „ ,, Line Cavalry carbine
2| „
,, writing materials. Engineers - - _ _
3 „
Sabretaches, O.R., Mark II. ----- -
3 „
7 „
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W.,
8 March 1889. (7127—3424.)
Evan Colville Nepean,
Director of Army Contracts.
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Mr. W. Middlemore for making up Accoutrements,
on Contract dated 28th February 1889 (7127 — 3424).
Cutting.
Stitching.
Preparing
and
Finishing.
Brown :
d.
s. d.
s, d.
Belts, waist, V. E., pattern ’82, S. S.
1^ each
— 4 each
- 3 each
„ „ ,, S. and R. and F.
9 dozen
1 3 dozen
1 - dozen
Carriages, water bottle, Italian, L. S. -
2 „
- 11 „
- 11 „
Cases, cavalry, pioneers, hand axe - - -
3 each
- 6 each
— 7 each
„ „ „ pick axe - - -
2 „
- 4 „
- 4 „
„ „ „ saw and file
3 „
- 6 „
- 7 „
„ „ „ shovel - - -
2 „
- 6 „
- 6 „
Black :
CaxT-iages, water bottle, Italian - _ -
3
4 ??
- 1 „
- 1 „
Pouches, ammunition, japanned, artillery -
1 „
- 3 „
- n »
„ ,, „ cadets, Sandhurst
1
- 3 „
- n „
., „ „ line cavalry , pistol,
trumpeters.
1 „
- 2 „
- 2| „
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W., Evan Colville Nepean,
8 March 1889. (7127 — 3424.) ^ Director of Army Contracts.
( 11 .)
4 u 3
706
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Mr. W. Middlemore, for making up Black Valise
Equipment for the War Department, on Contract dated 9th March 1889 (7127 —
3459),
Cutting.
Stitching.
Preparing
and
Finishing.
Belts, waist
d.
each.
d.
1| each.
d.
1| each.
Braces, left -
-
-
-
-
1 „
—
IX
^2 99
Do. right
-
-
-
-
1 »
—
H „
Pouches, 40 rounds
-
-
-
-
4 »
3 „
4 „
Do. 30 rounds
-
-
-
-
Ik »
4 „
5 „
Straps, coat
-
-
- .
-
dozen.
dozen.
2 dozen.
Do. mess-tin -
-
-
-
-
-1.
2 99
1-^-
^2 99
•
Evan Colville Nepean,
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W., Director of Army Contracts.
25 March 1889.
LIST of Prices agreed to be paid by Lieutenant-Colonel Wallace, for making up Valises
for the War Department, on Contract dated 13th March 1889 (7127 — 3459).
Fitting -
d.
- 5 each.
Welting -
_
.
d.
1
2
each
Seaming
■ ^k »
Preparing
-
-
- -1
99
Corner piece -
- u „
Rivetting
-
-
- -k
99
Fronts and gussets -
»
Machining
-
"
- 1
99
Evan Colville Nepean,
War Office, Pall Mall, S.W., Director of Army Contracts.
25 March 1889.
SELECT COMMITTEE OX THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
707
Appendix N.
PAPER handed in by Mr. C. E. Tomlin.
Prices paid for the following Articles in 1885.
s. d.
To Gorin ...
Pouches, black
-
-
-
-
- 6| each
Braces, sea service
-
-
-
■■ 3f „
Pouches, buff
-
-
-
-
,,
Hear! collars - - .
-
-
-
-
Waist-belts, sea service -
-
-
-
-
Buck bands -
•
-
-
-
1 9 „
Surcingles ...
-
-
-
-
- n 33
Seats, cavalry
-
-
-
-
- 10 „
Cruppers - -
-
-
-
-
- 6 „
Wallets
-
-
-
-
1 4 per pair
To Mrs. Butler -
Belts, waist, buff, 1882 pattern
-
•
- each
Braces, V. E. - .
-
-
-
-
10 5 per 100 pairs
Pouches, buff
-
-
-
-
- 4| each
Frogs, Infantry
-
-
-
-
- 1| 33
To Miss Chapman
Coat-straps ...
-
*
-
-
- -1 33
Gun-slings - - -
-
-
-
-
3 10 per 100
To Pott in 1884 -
Valises -
-
-
-
.
1 IJ each
Valises, without marking
-
-
-
-
- „
Witness,
A. M. Collison,
Grange Mills, Bermondsey.
A lee Ross Co.
( 11 .)
4 u 4
708
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE
Appendix O.
PAPER handed in by Mr. IV. J. Davis, o April 1889.
Evidence Collected by Mr. fF. J. Davis, Her Majesty’s Inspector of Factories, Sheffield.
Table showing the Condition under which the Spring-Knife Cutlers of Sheffield
are Employed.
NAM E.
What are your Gross
Earnings ]ier Week ?
How many Hours do
you work a Week to
Earn the Sum stated?
What do you pay for
Power and Gas per
Week?
What do you pay for
Tools and Materials
per Week ?
Do you employ
Underhand Labour ?
What do you pay for
Underhand Labour
per Week ?
What are ycur Nett
Earnings per Week
for the Hours stated ?
Sanitary Conditions.
REM A R K S.
£.
d.
s.
d.
s. d.
s.
d.
£. s.
d.
Hall
-
1 19
6
60
4
-
3 -
Yes
15
6
- 17
-
Good.
Wliitham -
-
- 17
-
60
1
4
None -
No
-
- 15
8
Lowe Brothers -
-
2 G
-
60
2
8
4 -
Yes
3
6
1 15
10
For two workmen.
Whitting -
-
1 1
6
64
1
3
1 -
No
-
- 19
3
»
Harrison -
-
- 18
-
64
1
-
1 -
V
-
- 16
-
France & Son -
-
1 16
8
60
3
8
3 -
-
1 10
-
For two workmen.
Beatson -
-
- 18
-
75
1
-
1 -
>>
-
- 16
-
»
Beatson, C.
-
- 19
-
7o
1
-
1 -
-
- 17
-
Hadfield -
-
1 -
-
75
1
-
1 -
-
- 18
-
7>
Irving
-
- 14
-
75
1
-
1 -
-
- 12
-
Hall, J. -
-
- 14
-
75
1
-
1 •-
-
- 12
-
»
Adams
-
- 18
-
69
1
4
1 -
V
-
- 15
8
Wild
-
- 18
--
69
1
4
1 -
-
- 15
8
Marshall -
-
- 19
-
69
1
4
1 -
»
-
- 16
8
77
Gallimore
-
- 18
-
69
1
4
1 -
o
-
- 15
8
77
Smith
-
- 17
-
69
1
4
1 -
V
-
- 14
8
,,
Roberts -
-
1 -
-
62
1
-
1 -
»
-
- 18
-
»
Jepson
-
1 -
-
62
1
-
1 -
V
-
- 18
-
»
Scales
-
1 -
-
62
1
-
1 -
V
-
- 18
-
77
Pashley
-
- 17
-
56
1
-
1 -
J)
-
- 15
-
7?
Short
•
- 17
-
56
1
-
1 -
-
- 15
-
77
Bradbury -
-
- 18
-
56
1
-
1 -
-
- 16
-
77
Cohen and Cohen
-
1 16
-
68
4
2
3 6
Yes
5
6
1 2
10
»
For two workmen.
Worrall -
.
-
_
-
-
.
_
This workman declines
Buck
-
- 19
-
56
1
4
- 8
No
-
- 17
-
Good.
to give information.
Tomlin
-
- 18
-
56
1
4
- 8
-
- 16
-
77
Robottom
-
- 13
-
56
1
4
- 8
-
- 11
-
77
Roberts -
-
- 13
-
o6
1
4
- 8
-
- 11
-
77
Priest
-
- 14
-
56
1
4
- 8
-
- 12
-
77
Wilson
-
1 16
-
56
1
8
1 2
Yes
8
-
1 5
2
77
Tarrey
-
2 2
-
56
4
-
1 6
18
-
- 18
6
77
Simpson - -
- 18
-
56
1
4
- 8
No
-
- 16
77 I
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM,
709
Table showing the Conditions under which the Table Knife TIafters are (Outworkers;
Employed in Sheffield.
N A M E.
What are your
Weekly
Gross Earuings?
Cost of Rent
and Gas
per Week.
Shore
Townsend
Cole and Son
Darwin
Drahble -
Uttley
Drabble -
Maniheld -
Holmes
Patterson -
Ashton
Taylor
Shaw
Greaves -
Holmes, jun.
Duiigworlh
Bent
Holmes, J.
Briggs
Hawksworth
Jackson
Thornton -
£. s. d.
1 4 8
1 16 2
1 10 -
1 8 6
1 4 6
3 4-
s. d.
2 8
4 2
2 8
1 6
1 6
2 6
Day work
Cost of
Working
Materials
per Week.
How many
Hours
do you Work
a Week to Earn
this Amount?
What are your
Nett Earnings
per Week?
s. d.
£. s. d.
6 -
60
- 16 -
7 -
60
1 5 -
4 -
56
1 3 4
For two workmen.
4 -
56
1 3 -
2 -
56
1 1 -
12 -
56
2 9 6
56
- 16 -
56
1 12 -
56
1 5 -
56
1 5 -
56
1 3 -
56
1 2 -
56
1 - -
-
56
1 4 -
56
- 18 -
56
1 6 -
56
1 4 -
56
1 12 -
56
- 16 -
56
1 7 -
56
- 14 -
56
1 7 -
Table showing Conditions under which Grinders are Employed in Sheffield.
NAME
OF
OUTWORKER.
© ©
<1 a
>~t ©
CQ ©
O "
-Cl
bJD
® s
3^
o
-s c’
> o
O 5
■'S -
W o
I “
I =»
K.5
"3
>> V
.a fc-s
so - 5
•S|^
■f ^ o
CO 3 o
O Ph •§
REMARKS.
Darran -
Ditto
Barker -
Yes
FILE GRINDING :
Chandley
Green -
No
Yes
s. d.
6 -
6 -
5 -
s. d.
6 -
6 -
5 -
POCKET BLADE GRINDERS :
Johnson
Smith -
Thompson
Yes
9
£. s. d.
2 5-
2 5-
1 4 G
2 13
2 10
1 8
1 -
1 -
56
56
56
54
54
56
56
56
48
48
48
40
42
44
44
44
£. s.
1 10
1 10
- 14
1 14
1 10
d.
Good
- 17 9
- 14 -
1 2 3
Note 1. — These two occu-
piers employ a young
person between them at
6 s. per week.
Note 2. — This outworker is
employed subject to al-
lowing 15 °/o and 4d. in
the shilling to Green, f«,>r
whom he works.
Note 3. — This outwotker
is employed subject to al-
lowing a discount of 20° j^-
The deductions have been
made in each case, and
the earnings stated are
actually received.
Note 4. — Johnson employs
a young person and pays
him 2s. 6d. per week,
which amount I have de-
ducted from the gross
earnings.
4 X
(11.)
10
APPENDIX TO KEPORT FROM THE
Table showing Conditions in which Outworkers in the File-cutting Trade of Sheffield
are Employed.
NAME
OF
OUTWORKER.
What are your Gross Earnings per
Week ?
How many Hours do you Work a W'eek
to Earn the Sum stated?
Cost of Tools, Gas, and Coal per Week.
Cost per Week of Cutting Stock on
Shop Rent.
What Discount is deducted from your
Statement Price ?
Do you Employ Under-hand Labour ?
Cost of Under-hand Laliour per Week.
Estimate of Time lost in fetching out
and taking in Work to the Warehouse.
Is this Loss of Time calculated in
your Working Hours ?
What are your Nett Weekly Earnings?
Sanitary Conditions.
£. £,
s.
rf.
s, d.
P Cent.
Hours.
£
s.
d.
Hinson
1 4
60
1
-
- 6
10
No
-
4
No
1
-
-
Good
Snell
1 3
60
-
9
- 4
124
*9
-
4
99
-
19
-
•)
Ogden -
1 3
60
-
9
- 4
10
i)
-
4
>9
1
-
-
99
Betts ...
1 4
60
-
9
- 4
15
5
99
-
19
-
>9
Taylor - - -
1 3
58
-
6
- 6
20
if
-
None
-
-
18
-
99
Hudson
1 -
60
-
6
- 6
20
»
-
5
No
-
13
-
99
Fox
1 2
60
-
6
- 6
20
»f
-
None
-
-
17
-
99
Needham
- 18
58
-
6
- 4
15
ff
-
r>
-
-
14
6
99
Davison
I -
60
-
6
- 6
10
>9
-
4
No
-
17
-
99
Smith - - -
1 -
60
-
6
- 6
20
9f
-
4*
99
-
13
-
99
Swift . - -
1 -
60
-
6
- 6
20
»>
-
4
-
15
-
99
Parkin - - -
- 19
60
-
6
- 6
15
99
-
4
99
-
15
-
99
Burgham
- 18
60
-
6
- 6
10
if
-
5
99
-
15
-
99
Chapman
- 18
60
-
6
- 6
10
if
-
5
99
-
15
-
99
Wright, F. C.
- 18
60
-
6
- 6
10
99
5
99
-
15
-
99
„ H. S.
- 18
60
-
6
- 6
10
99
-
5
99
-
15
-
99
„ A. T.
- 18
60
-
6
- 6
10
99
-
5
”
-
15
-■
99
Firth -
- 18
GO
-
6
- 6
10
99
-
5
99
-
15
-
99
Smith - - -
- 18
60
-
6
- 6
10
99
5
99
-
15
-
99
REMARKS.
Note I . — Fractional
portions above or be-
low 6 d. not given ;
but all the workmen
assured me that the
calculations were
rather over than
under the mark.
Note 2 . — I have made
these inquiries to
show the irregularity
in taking off dis-
discounts.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.
711
Appendix P.
PAPER handed in by Mr. Rotoland Mason, 11th April 1889.
Prices paid to Workpeople by D. Mason ^ Sons.
Preparing.
Stitching.
Total.
s. d.
s. d.
s.
d.
Backhands, Army Service C'oi
ps
-
-
-
each*
- 9
1 6
2
3
„ Artillery
-
-
-
-
#
- 10
1 8
2
6
Bit bridoon, with reins
-
-
-
-
dozen
- 10
1 8
2
6
Breastplates ...
-
-
-
-
each
- 3)
- 4
-
n
Breeching, pack saddle
-
-
-
-
dozen
4 -
6 -
10
-
Breast collar, pack saddle
-
-
-
-
yy
6 -
4 -
10
-
Breeching, near
-
-
-
-
each*
2 6
2 -
4
6
„ off - -
-
-
-
-
yy
2 4h
2 6
4
101
Carbine buckets
-
-
-
-
*
yy
- 11
- 7
1
6
Case, horseshoe saddlery -
-
-
-
-
yy
- 31
-
-
00
Collars, headstall
-
-
-
-
yy
- 5
- 6
-
11
Crupper, saddlery
-
-
-
-
yy
_ oi
_
-
5
„ pack -
-
-
-
-
yy
- 5
- 5
-
10
Girths, leatlier
-
-
-
-
yy
- 3
_ 4
-
7
Saddle, universal
-
-
-
-
yy
1 8
- 11
2
7
Strap, baggage
■
-
-
-
dozen
- H
- H
-
7
„ cloak and wallet
-
-
-
-
yy
- 7k
- 9
1
ih
„ cloak, centre -
-
-
-
-
yy
- 3^
- 3^
-
7
„ girth -
-
-
-
-
yy
- 31
- 3J
-
7
„ hame
-
-
-
yy
- 31
- 3^
-
7
„ shoe case
-
-
-
-
yy
- 31
- 3|
-
7
Surcingle, leather
-
-
-
-
each
- 2
_ o
-
4
Tugs, Artillery
-
-
-
-
pair*
2 -
2 -
4
-
Waistbelt . _ .
-
-
-
-
dozen
1 -
1 5
2
5
Braces - - - .
-
-
-
-
each
- 3J
-
-
8
Frogs - . - .
-
-
-
•
dozen
- 10
, - 7
1
5
Pouches - - - -
-
-
-
-
yy
3 -
4 -
7
-
Straps, great coat
-
-
-
-
yy
2 -
4 -
6
-
* Those marked * I believe the stitching to be correet ; but, being stitched by men, we do not
pay for each item separately.
( 11 .)
Rowland Mason.
*\ ' 1 *
ipV*
f