4 fe Publications of the National Union, No. LI. THE SAYINGS LIBERAL POLITICIANS J IRISH LAND QUESTION IN AND OUT OF PARLIAMENT, 1869 — 1879. «* PUBLISHED BV TIIR NATIONAL UNION OF CONSERVATIVE & CONSTITUTIONAL ASSOC lATIONS, ST STEniEN's CHAMBERS, BRIDGE STREET, WESTMIXSTEK, S.W. APKIL 1881. PREFACE, This publication is intended to place in a concise and convenient form the opinions expressed by prominent Liberals on the Irish Land Question during the last ten years, both in and out of ParHa- ment. A distinction has been made, however, in the manner in which their opinions have been quoted. Extra-Parhamentary utterances reported in the Times have been quoted at greater length than those opinions which, given in Parliament, may be readily refen'ed to in Hansard, while the process of referring to speeches in the Times is more laborious and difficult. Of some of tlie princi- pal Parliamentary speeches an analysis has been made, with full marginal reference to Hatisard, which it is hoped will much facilitate reference. The order adopted in cataloguing the speeches is chronological, and falls naturally into six divisions. 1. — Extra-Parliamentary speeches in 1869. 2. — Extra-Parliamentary speeches in 1870. 8. — Debates in the House of Commons, 1870. 4. — Debates in the House of Lords, 1870. 5. — Speeches made on the Irish land question out of Parliament between the years 1871 — 1879. 6. — Opinions expressed in Parliament on various occasions during the same period. In referring to the extra-Parliamentary speeches, the date given with the name of the speaker is that of the Times in which the speech will be found reported. The number following refers to the page, and the letter to the column in which the words may be found. In reference to Hamard, the date, number of volume, and number of page is given. Where the words of Conservative spealiers are given it is in illustration or quotation of the opinions of Liberal politicians. Conservative Central Office, A'pril, 1881. SAYINGS OF LIBERAL POLITICIANS ON THK IRISH LAN^D QUESTION, 18 69-18 7 9. OUT OF PARLIAMENT, 1869. THE RIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE, M.P. Pakt i. Guildhall Speech, Times, Nov. 10, 1869. "~ *' We are bound to confess that even this very year has been marked in Ireland by a sad augmentation of those agrarian outrages which, occurring as they do in a country singularly free from a general tendency to crime, acquire a painful notoriety, and strike at the heart of Englishmen a deadly chill. What may be the cause of this increase of outrage, it might be premature and it would be diffi- cult to say ; but one thing I know, and I would that I could convey it to the minds of those who are connected with those sad atro- cities. Let not those who perpetrate them, suppose that that is the path by which they are to attain to success or leyislation for the re)noval of (jrievances. On the contrary, every one who lifts his hand to harm his neighbour in Ireland at this moment is not only, as he always was, merely guilty before God and man, but he is, before all things, and above all things, the enemy of the best interests of his country."' MR. E. A. LEATHAM, M.P. Huddersfield. Times, Nov. 20, 1869. oe. \Vith regard to the Irish land question he was not in favour of heroic remedies, or any remedy which would be unfair or unjust, he did not say inexpedient, if applied upon this side of the Channel. Because the whole or part of Ireland had been confiscated centuries ago, that was no reason why we should now proceed to an act of confiscation. That was what we should do if, by what was called Fixity of Tenure, we should hand over to the tenant the soil in per- petuity with a simple rent-charge in favour of the landlord. Ist Letter. Ulster Custom, -Jnd Letter. Valuation of Kent. ,"vd Letter. Fixitj^ of Tenure. Irish Legislation. Irish Agitators Condemned. THE LATE MR. C. BUXTON, M.P. Letters to the Times, Nov. 22, Nov. 23. and Nov. 29, 1869. *' The extension of the Ulster Custom to the rest of Ireland would' be a flagrant confiscation of the landlord's property. In support of this view he quotes the opinions of Lord Dufferin and Mr. Clare Read. " *' We cannot grant absolute Fixity of Tenure." He also argues that revaluation is bad. " The best authorities are agreed that in Ireland it is a snare, a mockery, and a delusion." The farmers themselves are the best valuators, and revaluation would be both expensive and inefficacious. This letter deals with the question of Courts of Arbitration — a system which Mr. Buxton deprecates. THE LATE RIGHT HON. E. HORSMAN, M.P. Times, Nov. 20, 1869. " No Government would dare to comply with the extravagant demands of agitators. If Mr. Gladstone released the Fenian prisoners and granted Fixity of Tenure, the life of his Government would not be worth three weeks' xDurchase after Parliament met." LORD LIFFORD. Letter to the Times, Nov. 7, 1869. Argues that Fixity of Tenure would be a great evil to the labouring class, as tending to hinder cultivation. EARL OF LICHFIELD. Times, Dec. 6, 1869. Disapproved of the system of Fixity of Tenure, and thought that the same land reform should be given to both England and Ireland. THE O'DONOGHUE, M.P. Times, Dec. 20, 1869. Page 4. *' The picture held before the Irish of a House of Commons oligar- chical, fanatical, anti-Irish, prepared to bully and cringe alternately^ has no existence in these days, and is a creation of the perverted ima- gination of those who desire to sow horror, hatred, and despair where confidence, friendship, and hope should alone flourish. " As if to illustrate the perversity of human nature, this is the precise time which some men have selected to counsel the Irish people to abandon constitutional action, and to become practically a nation of conspirators. We are to exhume old wrongs, to inhale afresh the spirit of revenge, and steel our hearts against the ap- proach of friendship. We are to forswear all good that has not been baptized in blood. ... It is scarcely possible to imagine a situation where such a programme could be accepted by Christian men, and when estimated in relation to the actual position and prospect of Ireland it stamps its originators and promulgators as the incarnation of mischief." utuc ^"-TTP^V^ THE LATE C. BUXTON, M.P. Times, Dec. 21, 1869. Page 4. It was desirable to give Irish Security of Tenure. ''I do not mean that we could or that we should give them Fixity of Ihc whole of their demands. They wish, no doubt, for Fixity of ''"'^""^'®* Tenure. . . . We cannot give thou tJud.'' J. MUSGRAVE, (IRISH LANDLORD). Letter to the Times. Dec. 21, 1869. Page 9. Dwelt on difficulties of Irish landlord. Tenants had refused to pay increased rent, former rent havimj been declared by Landed Instates Court to be far below real value. OUT OF PARLIAMENT, 1870. RIGHT HON. J. BRIGHT. p^kt h. Times, Jan. 12, 1870. — Predicts effect of legislation. *' Wc propose, then, a new conquest of Ireland without confiscation Prophecy of :and without blood — with only the weapon of a frank and generous lation. ° ^^^^' justico, v/hich is everywhere potent to bring together nations which have been long separated by oppression and neglect '"'' '•' "' " If we are able to suppress conspiracy, if we can banish'agrarian crime, if wc can imbar the prison doors, if we can reduce all excess .of military strength, if we can make Ireland as tranquil as England and Scotland now are — then at least I think we may have done something to justify the wisdom and the statesmanship of our time." Birmingham. Times, Jan. 13, 1870. 8 d. "It is not a light matter for men to conspire and arm and drill and break out into open insurrection. I am not speaking of specific crimes which men of violent and untameable temper have committed ; but I speak of the general act of war, because that is w^hat was contemplated. You must bear in mind that it is not only the rich who suffer from these convulsions. Every disturbance of the public peace affects to a great extent the solidity of our social system and the industry of the people ; it affects the security of capital and the general condition of trade." " Though I have been one who has always spoken strongly in favour condemns vio- .of change, and changes which we showed by great demonstration }*'"<^.®^^P®^'*^*y were to be effected, still for all that I am bound to say I know no Emigrants, greater enemy to our country than the man who attempts by force of arms to disturb the public peace, and to break down the authority of laws. Least of all are they to be excused who, being in a /Country to which they have emigrated, and escaped from what they suppose to be the tyranny and oppression here, are free to do what they please, yet conspire against our connnon country. I cannot say G that any kind of allowance is to be made for such persons. If they like to be citizens of America let them be so, but, having transported themselves to another country and become citizens of another State, they are the enemies of our country if they come here to disturb the public peace. Men, because they are Americans, are not to be judged less leniently than men who remain in this countrj' and^ endeavour to do what they believe to be in the interests of their country." RIGHT HON. W. E. FORSTEli. Bradford. Times, Jan. 18, 1870. P. 5 a. Resolution of Government to maintain order in Ireland. MR. STANSFELD, M.P. Halifax. lYmes Jan. 2G, 1870. 7 e. Impossible to " He did not believe that the settlement of the Irish land question- DemSids^ ^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ practicable basis would be an immediate cure for all the-^ grievances under which Ireland labours, because there must be some hopes too unreasonable to be satisfied by any possible measure." SIR J. D. COLERIDGE, M.P. (NOW LORD COLERIDGE). Exeter. Times, Jan. 29, 1870. 5 d. Tenant to ha\ e " At all events I think this is clear, that whatever is done in no more than Ireland will be done for the purpose of giving to the tenant neither more nor less than that which a fair man, and an equitable man, will say he has a right to." RIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE. Aiiswer to Deputation. Times, March 7, 1870. G a. Irish opinion not " They had in the first place to consider the opinion of the Irish sidJredon^rS; peoplc, for they felt that if the measure which they brought for- qnestions. ward for the settlement of this important question failed to satisfj- public opinion in Ireland, it would reflect a shame and scandal both upon Ministers and Parliament. The Irish people, however, should in forming their opinion, recollect that the Government had also to satisfy what he might call Imperial opinion — the public opinion of England and Scotland — which would not permit any Govern- ment to carry exceptional legislation in the case of Ireland to a point which was calculated to produce a rupture of our social re- lations. But far above either Irish public opinion or the public opinion of the other portions of the Imperial Corporation was the principle of justice." THE LATE ISAAC BUTT, Q.C., M.P. Lettei- to the Times, March 7, 1870. G b.. & e. " I have myself long since come to the conclusion that it is not possible to frame a measure which will by indirect means give any real security or stability of tenure to the Irish occupiers, but,. knowing as I do the ili^ciilties that are to be encountered in the prejudice — the natural and even praiseworthy prejudice — that exists against direct interference with the action of proprietary rights, I would be sincerely rejoiced to see that others had suc- ceeded in the solution of the problem for which I have been un- able to discover any." Letter to the Tunes, March 10, 1870. P., o f. Asserting absenteeism to be more common in Huntingdon than in Armagh EIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE. Letter to Dublin Corporation. TiWs, March 23, 1870. 12 d. Answers criticism on Land Bill and then concludes: " I can Condemns FK- therefore only say that the Government will be most ready to pro- ^*{j "v^ued^^ pose or adopt any amendments which may be shown to conduce to Kent, the completeness or efficiency of the measure ; but we do nut sec in irhat manner the plans described as perpetuity of tenure, or as valuation of rents by public authority, could be rendered consistent either icith any fair interpretation of the laws of propertij , or with the peace of mind of the people of Ireland, and the most effectire de- relojmient of her agriculture and industry." A. M. SULLIVAN, M.P. Commenting on above letter. Same date. Spoke of Judge Longfield's ^'admirable plan''' (for wliich see Cobden Club Essays, No. 1). Judge Longfield denounces the " Three E's. JUDGE LONGFIELD. Letter to the Times, March 26, 1870. 4 b. Contrasting Irish Land Bill with his own system of " Parliamen- tary Tenant Right." G. POULETT SCROPE. Letter to the Times, April 23, 1870. 7 d. Government reclamation of waste land desirable, and establish- Reclamation ment thereon of tenants at long lease or tenant proprietary. Compulsory sale of waste land to Government approved by Mr. G. Fitzgibbon, Master in Chancery. Estimates waste land in 1870 at 3,000,000 acres at least. HOUSE OF COMMONS, 1870. Part HI, QUEEN'S SPEECH. — Feb. 8, Hansard, cxcix. 4. Legislation to inspire "steady confidence in the law and desire to render assistance in its elective administration." 8 LORD CAIRNS. Feb. 8, Hansard, cxcix. 25. Quotation from speech of Mr. W. E. Forster ascribing agitation to Fenians, saying their agitators live by their agitation. RIGHT HON. B. DISRAELI, (EARL OF BEACONSFIELD). Feb. 8, Hansard, cxcix. 73. Quotation from speech of Mr. W. E. Forster. This says that the existence of a Liberal Government has encouraged the agitators in Ireland. Column 84. Sketch of Irish demands in 1869. Encouraged by Disestablishment to demand more. Quotation from Lord Stanley, 30th Apiil. Hansard — cxcv., 2001-2. That proprietary rights of landlords should be maintained. RIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE. Feb. 15, Hansard, cxcix. p. 343. P. 343. It was the excessive subdivision of land with the view to the creation of 40s. freeholds which ushered in the horrors of the famine of 1847 and 1848. P. 350. Fixity of Tennre. Necessity of compensating landlords for diminished value of property. Practical difficulty in the way of this. Fixity of Tenure P. 351. Landlord reduced to a mere rent charge by Fixity of Condemned. Tenure. Not prepared to do this. It would be a social revolution, absolving wealth and property from their duties. P. 353. Fixity of Tenure would proscribe that class of tenaijts which does not want a permanent estate in land, otherwise it would not be final. This principle is ec^ually applicable and necessary for England and Scotland. P. 354. The instances in wdiich Fixity of Tenure does virtually exist in Ireland do not present encouraging features. P. 356. Ulster compared with rest of Ireland. J P. 366. Ulster Custom, its characteristics, compensation for im- provement and price of good-will. P. 369. Compensation for Disturbance. P. 379. High Rents. Anxious to avoid interference of public authority with existing rent. P. 386. Operation of Bill to be quiet and gradual. Appended are Mr. Gladstone's views on the three F's at full length. As I understand it, the scheme itself amounts to this — that each and every occupier, as long as he pays the rent that he is now paying or else some rent to be fixed by a public tribunal charged with the duty of valuation, is to be secured, for himself and his heirs, in the occupation of the land that he holds, without limit of time. He will be subject only to this condition — somewhat in the nature 9 of the Commutation of Tithe Act — that with a variation in the vahie of produce the rent may vary, but it will be slightly, and at somewhat distant periods. The effect of that provision will be that the landlord will become a pensioner and rent-charger upon what is now his own estate. The Legislature has, no doubt, the perfect right to reduce him to that condition, giving him proper com- pensation for any loss he may sustain in money ; the State has a perfect right to deal with his social status, and to reduce him to that condition if it thinks fit. But then it is bound not so to think fit unless it is shown that this is for the public good. Now, is it for the public good that the landlords of Ireland, in a body, should be reduced by an Act of Parliament to the condition practically of fundholders, entitled to apply on a certain day from year to year for a certain sum of money, but entitled to nothing more ? Are you prepared to denude them of their interest in the land ; and, what is more, are you prepared to absolve them from their duties with regard to the land ? I, for one, confess that I am not; nor is that the sentiment of my colleagues. We think, on the contrary, that we ought to look forward with hope and expectation to bringing about a state of things in which the landlords of Ireland may assume, or may more generally assume the position which is happily held, as a class, by landlords in this country — a position marked by residence, by personal familiarity, and by sympathy with the people among whom they live, by long traditional connection handed on from generation to generation and marked by a constant discharge of duty in every form that can be suggested — be it as to the administration of justice, be it as to the defence of the country, be it as to the supply of social, or spiritual, or moral, or educational wants — be it for any purpose wdiatever that is recognized as good and beneficial in a civilized society. Although, as ] have said, nothing would induce me voluntarily to acquiesce in the continuance of such a state of things as has pre- vailed, and still to a great extent prevails, in Ireland — it would, I own, be a most melancholy conclusion were we to find that we could not rectify that which is now wrong in the land tenures of that country without undertaking a social revolution, a social revolution in which the main characteristics would be the absolution of wealth and property from the performance of duty, and an addition to that lounging class — unfortunately too abundant in this country — who are possessed of money and of nothing else, and who seem to have no object in life but to teach us how to multiply our wants and to raise the standard of our luxuries, even when we have not yet solved the problem, or got to the heart of the secret how we are to relieve the destitution which is pining at our doors. But consider again how this plan is to work. Let me suppose myself an Irish occupier invested by an Act of Parliament with per- petuity of tenure. II I want to let the property which I have thus acquired, am I to be allowed to let it to a tenant — a mere tenant — or am I not to be allowed to let it to anybody but a perpetuity-man. 10 like myself ? If I am only to let it to a perpetuity-man, I can only let it to that class of men who are prepared both to cultivate the soil and to pay me the price of the permanent estate. The strange position in which we should then find ourselves would be that all that active and energetic class which does not require any perma- nent estate in the land, but exists by the intelligent and profitable application of capital to farming purposes, would be absolutely pro- scribed ; you would not anywhere let a man in to put a spade or plough into the ground unless he was able to purchase the perpetual estate. But, on the other hand, if I am told — " You, a perpetuity- mau, will be allowed to deal with the land as you choose — to let it from year to year, to create yearly or any other form of tenancies which you think proper" — then I say the Act of Parliament would contain within it the seeds of its own destruction ; nay, not the germs only, but the body and substance of provisions which would soon generate the very mischiefs which you proposed to extinguish. We should still have landlords and tenants with relations as ill- regulated as ever. At first they would be small landlords, but not long. The wealth of this country would go forth once more into the market and accumulate great estates, so that — not we, perhaps, but at any rate our children, should again have tc assemble within these walls, and to deal afresh with the difficulties of the Irish land question. "If perpetuity of right is to be transferred from one class to another, that would not be a bit more or less expedient on this side of the water than on the other ; and accordingly in that view of the matter this with which we have now to deal is not an Irish land question but an United Kingdom land question. Lastly, I must put yet one other point. These tenures, which partake of the character of perpetuity, or approximate to it, already to some extent exist in Ireland. I do not say that it would be a sufficient argument in favour of the plan — I rather think it would not — if you had proof that this perpetuity of tenure was good for the people themselves who had been the recipients of that mode of treatment ; but this I must say, having endeavoured to examine, as well as we can, the evidence with regard to the agricultural con- dition of those portions of Ireland which are at present held upon tenures of perpetuity without proprietorship, or which approximate to those tenures, that we do not feel the result to be such as to assure us that this class of tenure would in Ireland attaia the object which we greatly prize — namely, the object of enlarging the wealth of the soil and of developing a powerful and flourishing agriculture.. Having urged these arguments, to which I am aware of no reply, I may, for the present at any rate, quit this part of my subject." RIGHT HON. C. FORTESCUE (LORD CARLINGFORD). March 7, 1870. Hansard, cxcix. 1442. Ulster Custom, Extension of Ulster Custom to rest of Ireland not fair either to Landlord or Tenant. 11 p. 1 443. Government wise in not depriving Irish Landlord of the power of deaHng with his own land. B. SAMUELSON, M.P. March 8, Hamanl, cxcix. p. 1530. Protest against Fixity of Tenure. nure."'^ ^ THE O'DONOGHUE, M.P. March 8, p. 1537. " Member of Extreme Tenant Right party. Never met a member of the Tenant Right party who did not recognize in the landlord an undoubted title to ownership of land." MR. DOWSE, SOLICITOR-GENERAL, IRELAND (NOW BARON DOWSE). March 8, p. 1560. The House would not be asked by Her Majesty's Government, ^'xity of Te- whatever might be done by any other subsequent Government — to sanction any Bill laying down the principle of Fixity of Tenure. SIR ROUNDELL PALMER (LORD SELBORNE|. March 10, 1664 Sq. " Fatal for Government to yield to wild demands." P. 1665. Desirability of having larger holdings in Ireland. ^a»-?e Holdings " Could not be induced to agree to any measure which seemed, on the whole, to involve any serious and substantial departure from the great and necessary principle in which the rights of property rest." P. 1666. Some schemes do ignore rights of property. Such is Fixity of Tenine T-T •, n m , . , . , 9 T-, T*^, •'•,■'■,• ii IS Confiscation. i^ixity 01 Tenure, "which, m plain Enghsh, means taking away the property of one man and giving it to another." It would be a breach of faith to destroy titles in one Session on which properties have been purchased under the Encumbered Estates Act. Disturbance clause only one at all at variance with principle of equity. P. 1667. Fixity of Tenure with periodical revaluation of rents. Valued Rent. " A scheme more full of objection both as regards landlord and tenant I cannot conceive." P. 1668. Disturbance clause objectionable unless guarded by careful restrictions, as in clause 14. P. 1669. Necessity for the Bill a great misfortune. P. 1670. This Bill powerless in itself to stop outrage, but it will remove everything like plausible reason for outrage. P. 1671. Land Bill must be supplemented by Coercion. 12 Fixity of nure. Te- Mr. Bright. Fair Rents. Valuation of Rents. Valued Rent. RIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE. March 11, 1870. Hansard, cxcix. P. 1842. Notices fact that no argument had been introduced in favour of Fixity of Tenure which could for a moment abide its trial at the bar of reason. P. 1843. Asserted that Mr. Bright always said that any reform proposed by him in reference to Irish land would be based on sacred respect for rights of property. " Perpetuity of tenure is a phrase that I flatter myself is a little going out of fashion. If I have contributed anything towards disparaging it I am not sorry." P. 1844. Fair Bents. "Remedy should be protection against evic- tion, not of a joint property in the soil. Neither I nor my col- leagues are prepared to admit that just protection of him (tenant) affords either an apology or an excuse for endowing him with a joint property in the soil." P. 1845. "I have not heard, I do not know, I cannot conceive what is to be said for the prospective power to reduce excessive rents." " Reduction of excessive rents would (1) throw into confusion the whole economical arrangements of the country. (2.) Drive out of the field honest and solvent men. (3) Spread demoralization through the whole Irish people." P. 1846. Government not prepared to take valuation of rent into their own hands. Would entail valuation of all other agricultural conditions. Practical difficulty of valuation. P. 1847. No one able to fix by law any system upon which it w^ould be possible to adjust rents by calculations founded upon prices of agricultural produce. P. 1848. EstabHshment of Fixity of Tenure and fair rent a social revolution. P. 1851. Bill of 1870 conferred privileges of occupation on Irish cottier and farmer superior to any enjoyed by them in other countries. P. 1852. England had made great efforts for peace and union. Irish warned not to make demands that justice cannot sanction or concede. RIGHT HON. R. LOWE, (LORD SHERBROOKE). April 4, 1870. Hansard, cc. 1191. Committee on '^Disturbance" Clause. P. 1 1 91 . " Saved the landlord from that from which we recoil — the notion of submitting to the Court what rent a holding should pay." P. 1196. " The disturbance of a tenant by eviction is a legal act, and a man is right in doing it." P. 1200. "This Bill is the foundation of a better state of things in Ireland — a state of things in which each man shall respect the rights of his neighbour, the tenant the right of the landlord, the landlord those of the tenant. 18 P. 1201. We have avoided the Charybdis represented by those who FUity of Tc- advocate Fixity of Tenure. We have endeavoured without shaking the foundation of property, to give adequate relief to the tenants ; we have entirely repudiated the notion of Fixity of Tenure." N.B. — Compare Mr. Lowe's speech on March 12, 1868. Hansard, 190. Col. 1483. Sq. Ireland progressing. Advantages enjoyed by her compared with Speech in i868. England. Column 1488 he says: "I have sat on several Com- jfo ii^ Gne- mittees of this House to investigate this question of the land in^ance. Ireland, and it has never been my fate to hear a single case of grievance or ill-treatment of a tenant alleged, with dates and circum- stances, so that it could be verified. '* Our Committees were entirely unsuccessful in discovering any case of real grievance." "It is ridiculous to inveigh against the law which is the same in Ireland as in England." Small holdings cause of distress in Ireland. ^ ^ ^"'^^^ Holdings. P. 1493. Arbitrary restrictions with regard to land depreciate its value, and tend to prevent that desire of accumulation on which the wealth of nations depend. P. 1494. Sq. Objection to Peasant Proprietary. By forming a Peasant Proprietary we would give the strongest impulse to the desire for separation. SIR R. PALMER, (LORD SELBORNE). April 4, 1870. Hansard, cc. Committee on " Distiirhance'' Clause. P. 1211. Great caution required in giving this compensation. "We must keep the principle within proper limits and accompany it with all reasonable checks " or "it will become an invasion of all the rights of property." Great changes had been made in the bill (1) as regards Ulster custom; (2) alteration in the scale of compensation ; (3) withdrawal of the option of giving a 21 years' lease. P. 1212. Extreme political necessity might justify the retrospec- Only extreme tive action of the Bill as only applying to year-to-year tenancies. jSj^fy The pro- " But to interfere in that way prospectively with freedom of con- g^^j""^ °^ ^^*^ tract, to dictate new terms, and such extraordinary terms as at first sight these are, is a thing which can only be justified by the necessity of the case, and this, again, should not be carried one single inch beyond that necessity." P. 1214. He points out that the effect of the change would be that irrimd facie the Judge would assess the compensation at the maxi- mum, unless the landlord would show good cause for reducing it. RIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE. April 4, 1870. Hansard, cc. ''Disturbance'' Clause Committee. P. 1255. Land Bill not to be permanent. Hope that Ireland would ^eTd^ot'be pe" work out of her anomalous circumstances, " but way of doing that manent. will be by reintroduction of principle of freedom of contract." 14 P. 1261. Quotation from Mr. 0'Connell,M.P,. saying that ail tliat would be needed to confer great benefits on the tenants would be the restoration of the ancient law with respect to the relations of landlord and tenant. P. 1262. " I hope it will be admitted on all sides that we have not been indistinct in the declaration of our intention to offer a firm resistance to all attempts to introduce principles into the Bill, which would go to make the power of a landlord over his property, or the receipts he derived from it, subject to the indefinite claims of a separate and rival interest." MARQUIS OF HARTINGTON. May 2, 1870. Hansard, cci. 19 Sq. Amendment on lemjth of lease. P. 23. " I believe that the Irish landlords have, as a body, done their duty to their tenants, while they have, perhaps, put up with more and sacrificed more than any body of landlords in either England or Scotland have done." EIGHT HON. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE (LORD CARLINGFORD). May 19, 1870. Hansard, cci. 991 Sq. Debate on Sir J. Gray's amendment, (jiving virtual Fixity of Tenure with restrictions on non-jmyment of rent, subdivisio7i, and serious waste. P. 994. The Government had steadily resisted the idea of rent being fixed arbitrarily by a public authority. P. 995. This scheme would not tend to promote peaceful and harmonious relations between landlord and tenant in Ireland, but would be attended by the very contrary effects. MR. DOWSE (SOLICITOR-GENERAL, IRELAND). May 19, 1870. 1104. Same delate. V. 1014. There might be something to be said for Fixity of Tenure ; there was certainly a great deal to be said against it. RIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE. May 19, 1870. Hansard, cci. 1022 Sq. Debate on Sir J. Grays amendment. P. 1024. ''I am irreconcilably onposed to granting Fixity of Tenure." P. 1025. Deprecates interference with freedom of contract, except when quite unavoidable. P. 1027. " We carefully put aside everything that promised, or seemed to promise, Fixity of Tenure, and everything in the way of what may be described as valuation of rent." 15 RIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE. May 30, 1870. Hansard, cci. Land Bill, Third Reading. P. 1611. Asserts strongly that it was advisedly that the Govern- ment had refused to yield to the popular demand in Ireland for Fixity of Tenure and valuation of rents. P. 1613. General moderation displayed towards the Bill had laid on the Government the obligation to be faithful to those who had been faithful to the public interests, and to use their best efforts to maintain it (the Bill) in its integrity and efficiency. HOUSE OF LORDS. Part IV. Ireland rented low. lire lation of EARL GRANVILLE. June 14, 1870. Hansard, ccii. 4 Sq. Second Reading. P. 5. ''Landlords too have their grievances. It is stated, on good authority, that the rent of land in Ireland is lower, considering the capability of the soil, than that of any civilized country in Europe." P. 10. "Theyf the Government) might indeed have done thatwhich f^f^l^.ZZ they were resolved not to do — namely, have introduced a Bill adopt- Rent, ing Fixity of Tenure, taking away his property from the landlord, and establishing a valuation rent.' They might thereby hav& excited in Ireland — at all events for the moment — an enthusiasm which would have made reasonable legislation impossible." DUKE OF RICHMOND. June 14, 1870. 25. P. 25. Refers to reports of the Poor Law Inspectors to disprove existence of harshness or frequency of eviction, N.B.— Compare speeches of Lords Granville and Kimberley on Tenure (Ireland) Bill, referred to by the Duke of Richmond, and to be found in Hansard, cxcv. 1163 and 1179. LORD DUFFERIN. June 14, 1870. Hansard, ccii. 60 Sq. Second Reading. P. 64. " To say that the landlords of Ireland have only contributed in Irish Landlords, an insignificant degree to the improvement of their properties is a cruel and outrageous calumny. In no country in Europe have such exertions been made, or so much time, labour, anxiety, and money been expended in the amelioration of the agricultural status of the country and of the peasantry as in many parts of Ireland during the last 30 years.'' P. 66. "I discard, as altogether monstrous and untenable, any claim preferred in behalf of the tenant, to any partnership or proprietary interest in the soil on the ground of ancient Irish habits or tribal 16 laws and customs, or on the strength of ethnological characteristics, or prescriptive right of occupation or any other of the fantastic apologies which have lately been invented." P. 69. Advisability of consolidating holdings to avoid the evils incident to the small holdings. LORD DERBY. June 16, 1870. 233 Sq. Hecond Reading. P. 235 . Strong dislike to the principle of compensation for disturb- ance. Small Holdings. ?• 237. Vehement opposition to anything tending to perpetuate a system of small holdings. P. 242. " That curious and fantastic delusion which appears to have taken hold of some of the agricultural population in Ireland, that in some vague, unexplained way the land belongs of right or ought to belong to those who live on it." — "That delusion will be finally negatived by this Bill." This Bill would not stop agitation which was too profitable a trade to be laid down. Land Bill and Irish Church Disestablishment both due to agitation. DUKE OF ARGYLL. June 16. 243 Bq. Second Reading. Rents increased ^50. " This Bill would by its passing make it fair and right for the by Land Law. Irish landlord to raise his rents, since the compensation for distur- bance and improvement by it legalized enhanced the value of the holding. This was the course he would himself adopt were he an Irish landlord." June 24, 1870. Hansard, ccii. 859 Sq. Committee. Notice general agreement of speakers that it is desirable to give landlord right of interference in the assignment of his holding by the tenant. PAHTV. LAND QUESTION OUT OF PARLIAMENT. RIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE, M.P. Aberdeen. Times, Sept. 27, 1871. 6 a. Ireland Home " Ideas which are very unintelligible and superfluous." Rule. ' <' Has Ireland grievances? What is it that Ireland has demanded from the Imperial Parliament and that the Imperial Parliament has refused ? " " There is no such grievance. There is nothing that Ireland has asked and which this country and this Parliament have refused. This Parliament has done for Ireland what it would have scrupled to do for England and Scotland." " What are the inequalities of England and Ireland," 17 " I declai'e that I know none except that there arc certain taxes iieianJ. -levied on Enghshmen and Scotchmen which are not levied on Irishmen."' " People say that we have tried to concihate Ireland and have failed. I do not admit that Ireland is not going to be conciliated, but I say this — that we must always keep in mind that there is a higher law to govern the actions of Parliaments and of politicians than the law of conciliation, good as that law may be." "There was a higher and a paramount aim in the measures ijjsh Legisia- that Parliament has passed, and that was that it should •do its duty. It was to set itself right with the national ■conscience, with the opinions of the world, and with the principles of justice, and when that is done, I say fearlessly that, whether conciliation be at once realized or not, the position of this country is firm and invulnerable." HON. G. G. GLYN (LOKD WOLVERTON). Shaftesbury. Times, Oct. 21, 1871. 5 d. " Mr. Gladstone's Government had done justice to Ii-eland. It had taken away the excuses of complaint." RIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE. Greenwich, Oct. 30, 1871. 3 a. Sq. " I believe the community of Ireland is well satisfied with the Satisfaction ia measures which obtained the sanction of the Legislature, and that in Ireland there has been laid for no very distant future, the founda- tions of solid political content. It would be premature to anticipate too confidently their ultimate results, but 1 feel justified in saying that of all I addressed to you in December, 18G8, there is no part -or portion which it is needful for me to qualify or retract. In the face of the three countries and in the face of civilized mankind, the Legislature has made a great efi'ort to do justice, and all that has taken place leads mo to the confident hope that that effort will be ■crowned with success." A. WELLESLEY PEEL, M.P. Warwick. Times, Nov. 2, 1871. c. " It was impossible for any candid man to say that Ireland had any grievance since the Irish Church had been disestablished."' RIGHT HON. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE, M.P. (LORD CARLINGFORD.) Bristol. Times, Nov. 15, 1871. 4 c. " He believed that there was more prosperity, less disturbance and crime in Ii-eland at this moment than at any previous period of her history, and he believed the great measures of the last two years, to which allusion had been made, were not bearing most rapidly, as if by magic, but steadily and reasonably — the fruits which all reasonable men expected." 18 THE LATE ISAAC BUTT, Q.C., M.P. Glasgow. Times, Nov. 15, 1871, 3 c. way^of^^obtain- Alluding to Mr. Gladstone's confession that it was the Fenian- ing Concessions, insurrection which had brought the Irish Church Act within the- sphere of " practical politics," he said : " If we have any grievance and the English Ministry and Parliament disregard it , we are actually to get up another insurrection in order to get justice. This is the lesson we are taught." " A few years more and some other grievance will arise. Are we again to awake the slumbering friendship of Mr. Gladstone or some future Gladstone by a second insurrection ?" RIGHT HON. JOHN BKIGHT, M.P. Times, Dec. 21, 1871. 3 f. " In a letter written to the Tenant Right Association of Munsterhe says that he is greatly pleased to hear that the Land Act meets- with so much favour, and that it was a measure intended by the Government that framed it and the Parliament that passed it to do- justice to the tenant farmers of Ireland. And he hopes most fervently that those objects may have been attained." RT. HON. HUGH CHILDERS, M.P. Pontefract. Times, Dec. 29th, 1871. G a. " I conceive nothing could be more dangerous than weakening the tenure of property." MARQUIS OF HARTINGTON, M.P. Knighton, Times, Jan. 6, 1872. 6 a. *' He denied that their conciliatory policy towards Ireland hadi failed. In dealing with Ireland, firmness and patience were neces- sary." EARL OF DERBY. Liverpool. Times, Jan. 10th, 1872. 10 k. " The Church has been disestablished and disendowed, the land: has been practically handed over to the enemy. No further sacrifice of the kind remains to be made." He then urges the danger of yielding to Irish agitation. OSBORNE MORGAN, M.P. Wrexham. Times, Jan. 6, 1872. " Ireland was in a satisfactory state. Poor rates had diminished, and the value of ratable property increased. Moreover, he cited Mr. Heron's testimony that the Land Act was working satisfactorily." MR. JUSTICE KEOGH. Galway, Times, May 28, 1872. 5 c. In giving judgment in the Galway election petition said: "All the witnesses deposed that the landlords in Galway were the best in the world." 19 IlIGHT HON. J. STANSFELD, M.P. Halifax. Times, Sept. 25, 1872. c. *' The freedom of land in Ireland from what trammelled it, and what kept it unjustly from the population of Ireland, — have you forgotten that enormous boon '?" SIR J.D. COLERIDGE, M.P. Liverpool. Times, Nov. 8, 1872. B e. Speaking of the Irish Church and Land Acts he said : " You cannot expect from two acts of justice, notable though they maybe, and in three years, to undo the effect of centuries of oppression." *' Our hands in dealing with Ireland are immensely and perma- D?scontent re-' * nently strengthened by the removal of causes of just dissatisfac- "loved. tion and complaint. The Irish policy of the Government had been a great success." RIGHT HON. G. J. GOSCHEN. Bristol. Times, Nov. 14, 1872. 10 a. The Irish land question was solved in 1870. " Our second year of office was marked by the solution of the Irish land question." RT. HON. HUGH CHILDEKS, M.P. Pontefi-act. Times. Jan. 14th, 1873. 12 a. " Neither the House of Lords, nor the Connexion of Church and State, nor the tenure of property, will find in me either an ©pen or a secret foe." A. J. OTWAY, M.P. Chatham. Times, Jan. 17, 1873. 7 d. Ireland had been relieved from every just grievance. EARL OF KIMBERLEY. Ipswich. Times, April 18, 1873. G a. He said that the Land Bill of 1870 had been a success and had worked well. ''I rejoice that we have purged our conscience of whatever in- justice we have committed towards Ireland." MARQUIS OF HARTINGTON. Nottingham. Times, July 17, 1873. 12 u. *' We are told that our remedial legislation for Ireland has fiiiled. fi^jf'j^^^ ^^{^^ . . I say that no proof can be adduced that that legislation successful. has failed. On the contrary, I assert, without fear of contradiction, that never was Ireland in a state of more nuiterial prosperity than she enjoys at present. " I believe that ignorance, poverty, and bad laws have fed disaffec- tion ; but as I see the people becoming better educated, as I see them becoming happy, I cannot but believe that the same causes which operate in the people of any other countiy will operate upon Irish- men, and we shall see disaffection slowly but surelv diminish." 20 EIGHT HON. R. LOWE, M.P. (LORD SHERBROOKE). Sheffield. Tiw ^5, Sept. 5,1873. 3 c. Ireland. '' They (thc Ministry) thought that no object should be dearer to the heart of an English statesman than to knit the hearts of the Empire into one harmouious concord, and they despaired of doing that unless, by giving her the strictest and fullest justice, they took away from her all grounds of complaint. . . That was the programme we started with. It was an audacious and extravagant one. . Well, but the strangest thing is that, with the single exception of the higher education of Ireland, one of the least important points of the whole system, we hare realized the whole of this pro(jraniine.'' SIR J. D. COLERIDGE, (LORD COLERIDGE.) Exeter. Times, Oct. 31, 1873. 7 d. " Do you think it a blunder to have done justice between land- lord and tenant in Ireland ? " SIR W. V. HARCOURT. Oxford. Times, Jan. 2, 1874. 6 c. Lanii Question. Speaking of the land question in its widest sense, and not as applied specially to Ireland. " Too much philosophy had been talked about land by ' rickety ' philosophers with very unsound constitutions. ' The unearned in- crement of land ' is an idea so illogical, so unreasonable, so perfectly unjust, and so absolutely philosophical that it does not require a refutation. I am content to assume that a man's right to his land depends on the same principle as your right to the coat on your back, namely, that you have paid for it. " When we' want to refprm the landowner we should not begin by bullying the landowners. Free Land. " If ' free land' means making free with other people's land, that is a sort of liberty I am not disposed to take. " Compulsory subdivision of land in opposed to freedom, and subdivision of land is injurious, the produce is less and the condi- tion of the cultivator worse." In support of this he quoted M. Lavergne on France, showing that the condition of the people was worse than in England, that 40 persons in France only get half the produce that 30 Englishmen do, and says, '' This is the result of an experiment tried with the three specifics, subdivision of land, peasant proprietorship, and universal county franchise." Peasant Pro- " Can any prospect be more hopeless than that of a small man pne ors. striving with insufficient capital upon land which he has not the means to cultivate?" RIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE. Electoral Address. Times, Jan. 24, 1874. 8 a. " The great Irish question of Church and land now so happily 21 disposed of." And he said that the House of Lords had, much to its credit, deferred to the voice of the country in 18G8 and 1870. RIGHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE. New Cross. Times, Feb. 3, 1874. 5 f. " It is sometimes said that we are half ashamed of the work we J"^*''^® *<* i^"^- have done with regard to Ireland. To my dying day it will be a source of unfeigned delight to me to reflect that I have been enabled to bear a part in that great and glorious work of doing justice to .our fellow countrj^men in Ireland, irrespective of ancient prejudices, irrespective of religious difterence, — ^^justice, and no more than jus- tice, for when justice has been fulfilled concession likewise must be arrested. ... No doubt we did endeavour to give security to the Irish tenant. That was a new policy. The Irish tenant now pursues his industry fearless of being disturbed." SIR W. LAWSON, M.P. Carlisle. Times, Oct. 23, 1874. 5 e. He did not understand that Ireland then had any great legisla- tive grievances, but he believed that some statesmen would recognize sentimental grievances, which often worked as much or more mischief than real grievances. RT. HON. W. E. GLADSTONE. Birmingham. Times. Jan. 2nd, 1877. 12 a. • *' You have referred to the condition of Ireland, the liberation of its conscience by the Disestablishment of the Church, and the endeavour to heal its wounds by a reform of its land law^s For after these great changes in Ireland, — changes which I am very far from saying left nothing to be done with regard to thti special condition of that country, but changes which have removed by far the greatest and most crying, and the most searching evils or public evils by which it was afflicted — so far as these evils lie within the range of the legislature." — etc. . . . ' ' I believe we have put into operation processes by which, not in a moment, but yet by a steady and sure advance, the Irishman will learn — to a great extent the Irishman has learnt — to cease to view in the law of the Government of his country his natural enemy." .... ''I believe that all our questions of difficulty with Ireland will now be symptomatic and superficial." RIGHT HON. J. BRIGHT, M.P. Letter to Mr. J. G. McCartJiij, M.P, Times. Dec. Gth, 1879. 6 a. " What you have written seems to me most worthy of consideration by the Government, and I hope something may bo done ; but all Administrations are afraid of touching the proprietors of land, and 22 the rights of properly are, I fear, deemed more sacred than the comfort and even the lives of the people." . . . " I think there is nothing which is possible and which it would be wise to do that might not be done for Ireland if her representa- tives in Parliament would unite with the Liberal Party in combined and honest action for the real benefit of their country. Whether such union will ever come I know not. Without it I fear j^our country and mine may suffer a long spell of the rule of the party which now directs the destinies of both." IRISH LAND QUESTION IN PARLIAJMENT. QUESTION.— ANSWER BY RIGHT HON. W.E. GLADSTONE. Feb. 24, 1873. Hansard, ccxiv. 835. Limit under "They had arrived at the conclusion that for many important ca'Jinot'^contoct qucstions the line ought to be drawn at £50 rental ; that under themselves out jg50 rental certain claims should exist, and that the tenant should not be permitted to contract himself out of the Act, because the House did not think that he had sufficient independence to enable him to contract fairly with his landlord. But above that line the House thought that the tenant was able to hold his own against the landlord. . . . The Act drew a certain line and there was no reason to think that that line had worked unsatisfactorily, and therefore he"" could say very distinctly that it was not the intention of the Goverimient, as at present advised, to apply to Parha- ment to amend the Act by repeahng the 12th clause of the Act. It would be exceedingly mischievous if any doubts were to exist as to the intentions of the Government on the subject. They did not intend to propose themselves nor would they regard favourably any proposal from others to amend the Act in accordance with these views." June 2nd. Debate, 1875. ])ebate on amendment of Act of 1870 so far as it relates to the Ulster custom. March 29, Hansard, ccxxviii. 771 Sq. Debate on BUI of Mr. Butt on Land Tenure (Ireland). The basis of the Bill was the ^'three F^'s." LORD ELCHO. March 29, 1876. 804. Debate, 187(5. Quotation from speech of the O'Connor Don in which he declined to support this Bill. THE O'DONOGHUE. March 29. 810. Deprecates the idea that the Irish landlords are at all tyrannical. RIGHT HON. HUGH LAW, M.P. Juno 29, 1876. Hansard, ccxxx. 624. Adjourmd Debate. 630. Opposed to Fixity of Tenure. Fixity of Te- 631. Subdivision of farms injurious. This would be encouraged ""'"^' by Fixity of Tenure. 632. Further objections to Fixity of Tenure. 633. " I will not adopt as my own the forcible language of •' Philocelt,' a well-known Irish writer, in reference to ' Fixity of Tenure,' which, he said, would ' smite Ireland as with a curse ; ' but I do very much fear that under the stereotyped, perhaps I might even say paralyzing system, that these proposals would force upon us, the last state of poor Ireland, would, in respect of agri- culture at least, be worse than the first." Absenteeism undesirable, and would be increased by this measure. 634. Valuation of rents mischievous. Fixity of Tenure and valua- y^iued Rents tion of rent would tend to prevent competition for land, and so pre- vent Irish labourers from ever becoming farmers. Competition desirable ; attempts to check it futile and impolitic. 635. Capricious eviction has been almost wholly stopped by Eviction, the penalties imposed by the Act of 1870. 636. Evictions by landlords in 1875, &c., for other causes than non-payment of rent about 1 in every 2,000 holdings. Average of decrees to tenants in 222 cases was £87. 637. Largest number of land cases by far arose in Ulster ; pro- portion for the provinces for every 10,000 holdmgs above to acre being, Ulster 39, Leinster 6, Connaught 5, Munster 4. Bishop of Cloyne in 1865 called Fixity of Tenure an " exaggera- ted claim." THE O'CONOR DON. June 29, 1876. 674 Sq. 29. Opposed to the Bill as monstrously unfair. MARQUIS OF HARTINGTON. June 29, 1876. 702 Sq. 704. Speech of Mr. Law had expressed his views. 705. This Bill would tend to increase middlemen, a bad :system. 706. He could not see how either now or in future the Irish ■could benefit by any legislation interfering with competition for and price of land. Debate on Proposed Jnqulrij into Land lUU of 1870. RIGHT HON. G. SHAW-LEFEVRE, M.P. Debaters:;. April 27, 1877. Hnmard ccxxxiv. 62. Land Act of 1870 had benefited both landlords and tenants ^J^^.^^' ^^ ''^^'■ 63. " The time had not arrived, nor was it near, when it would Valued Rent, be possible to review the working of the Act, nor would the House, 24 Valued Kent. Debate, 187 Freedom of Con- tract. Debate, 187S'. within any reasonable period, accede to either Fixity of Tenure or rents fixed by independent valuers." He was obliged to vote against the motion, because — 64. "It was directly in conflict with the ideas of English members with regard to property and because he had propounded doctrines which it was practically impossible should be adopted by an English House of Commons." MARQUIS OF HARTINCtTON. April 27, 1877. 97. Could not vote for motion because of principles it embodied. It meant valued rents, " and a principle which involved valued rents appeared to him to conflict altogether with the freedom of contract." The Land Act was not intended to upset the ordinary relations of landlord and tenant. " He was not convinced that the prosperity of Ireland would be advanced or improved by the adoption of an altogether new and untried system, instead of that which had been found to work, on the whole, in a satisfactory manner." 98. " He should be adverse to an enquiry if it were supposed by the people of Ireland that it was intended to be a prelude to legisla- tion or new principles for the purpose of establishing Fixity of Tenure and the valuation of rents." Land Tenure (Ireland) Bill. THE O'CONOR DON. Feb. 6, 1878. Hansard, ccxxxvii. 1187 Sq. Opposed to Bill as tending to confusion. Majority of landlords good. On the large and long settled estates in Ireland the rent was often lower than the economical rent. He was in favour of leaving terms and contract and all agree- ments in land perfectly free. For his alternative scheme, see 1192 Sq. N.B. — There were in this year several debates on various points connected with the tenure of land in Ireland, but on none of them, with the exception noted above, was any speech delivered by those members whose opinion was desired in this index. Hansard, ccxlvi, 346. Long debate on Irish Land Bill moved by Mr. Shaw. No speeches made by prominent Liberals. Motion rejected on proposition of Sir S. Waterlow. — Division list No. 93. May 20, 1879. Hansard, ccxvvi. 795. Bill on Tenant Right (Ireland) Bill introduced in the House of Lords by Lord Belmore. DUKE OF ARGYLL. 807. Opposed by Duke of Argyll as rendered unnecessary by Land Bill of 1870. f mmmmmmmmmmmm