iil UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS LIBRARY Class C Book £ Volume Mrl0-20M Digitized by the Internet Archive in 2016 with funding from University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign Alternates https ://arch ive .org/details/parti m i n utesofevOOgrea UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION. PART 1. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BY THE COMMISSIONERS, TOGETHER WITH AN APPENDIX AND INDEX. PART II. CEE TAIN CIECIJLAES ADDRESSED BY THE COMMISSIONERS TO THE UNIVEKSITY AND THE COLLEGES, TOGETHER WITH THE ANSWERS, OR A DIGEST THEREOF. to Iioti^ iH^ou 0 eo of ilatliatnent tit) Commaitti of ^tr LONDON: PRINTED BY GEORGE EDWARD EYRE AND WILLIAM SPOTTISWOODE, PBINTEES TO THE QUEEN’S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY. FOR HER MAJESTY’S STATIONERY OFFICE. [C. — 2868.] Price 6«. 4c?. 1881. PART I MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BY THE COMMISSIONERS, TOGETHER WITH AN APPENDIX AND INDEX. I (T I Q C223. LIST OF WITNESSES > Page Acland, Henry Wentworth, D.M. - - 181 Aldred, Philip Foster, M.A., B.C.L. - - 324 Andrew, James, D.M. - - - - 354 Anson, Sir William Reynell, Bart., M.A., B.C.L., and Holland, Thomas Erskine, D.C.L. - 60 Appleton, Charles Edward Cutts Birchall, D.C.L. 29 Armitage, Rev. Frederick, M.A. - - 325 Baring, Thomas Charles, M.A. - - 352 Boase, Rev. Charles William, M.A. - - 76 Bradley, Rev. George Granville, M.A. - - 125 Bright, Rev. James Franck, M.A. - - 77 Bright, William, D.D. - . . - 263 Bryce, James, D.C.L. - - - - 85 Burrows, Montagu, M.A. - - - 46 Capes, Rev. William Wolfe, M.A. - - 240 Chandler, Henry William, M.A. - - 102 Chapman, Edward, M.A. - - - 219 Chase, Rev. Drummond Percy, M.A. - - 36 Cheyne, Rev. Thomas Kelly, M.A. - - 228 Clifton, Robert Bellamy, M.A. - - - 21 Coxe, Rev. Henry Octavius, M.A. - - 244 Earle, Rev. John, M.A. ... 217 Ellis, Robinson, M.A. - - - - 130 Fowler, Rev. Thomas, M.A. - - - 92 George, Rev. Hereford Brooke, M.A. - - 286 Green, Thomas Hill, M.A. - - - 200 Harcourt, Augustus George Vernon, M.A. - 320 Hatch, Rev. Edwin, M.A. - - - 43 Hervey, Lord Francis, M.A. . - - 366 Holland, Thomas Erskine, D.C.L., and Anson, Sir William Reynell, Bart, M.A., B.C.L. - - - - - 60 Ince, Rev. William, M.A. - - - 144 Jackson, Rev. William Walrond, M.A., and Pelham, Henry Francis, M.A. - - 300 Jowett, Rev. Benjamin, M.A. - - 152 Jowett, Rev. Benjamin, M.A., as Curator of the Bodleian Library - - - 317 Kitchin, Rev. George William, M.A., and Ward, Rev. George Sturton, M.A. - - 160 Kitchin, Rev. George William, M,A. - - 165 Laing, Robert, M.A. - - - - 79 Lankester, Edwin Ray, M.A. - - - 337 Lawson, Marmaduke Alexander, M.A. - - 328 Legge, Rev. James, M.A. . - . 334 Liddell, Very Rev. Henry George, D.D. - 16 Liddon, Henry Parry, D.D. - - - 290 Page Macan, Reginald Walter, M.A. - - - 301 Magrath, Rev. John Richard, M.A. - - 135 Main, Rev. Robert, M.A. - - . 310 Maine, Sir Henry James Sumner, M.A. - 370 Monro, David Binning, M.A. - - - 7 Moore, Edward, B.D. - - - - 41 Muller, Friedrich Max, M.A. - - - 208 Neate, Charles, M.A. - - - - 281 Nettleship, Henry, M.A. - - - 53 Nettleship, Richard Lewis, M.A. - - 224 Odling, William, M.A. - - - - 171 Palmer, Rev. Edwin, M.A. - - - 97 Papillon, Rev. Thoinas Leslie, M.A. - - 233 Pattison, Mark, B.D. ... - 255 Payne, Joseph Frank, B.A., B.M. - - 346 Pelham, Henry Francis, M.A., and Jackson, Rev. William Walrond, M.A. - 300 Phelps, Lancelot Ridley, B.A. - - - 57 Pottinger, Henry Allison, M.A. - - 264 Prestwich, Joseph, M.A. - - - 313 Price, Rev. Bartholomew, M.A. - - 3 Price, Bonamy, M.A. - - - - 121 Pritchard. Rev. Charles, M.A. - - - 197 Pusey, Edward Bouverie, D.D. - - 295 Rawlinson, Rev. George, M.A. - - 250 Richards, Herbert Paul, M.A. ... 330 Robarts, Charles Henry, M.A. - - - 356 Robinson, Alfred, M.A. ... 147 Rogers, James Edwin Thorold, M.A. - - 167 Rolleston, George, D.M. ... 269 Salwey, Rev. Herbert, M.A. ... 205 Sayce, Rev. Archibald Henry, M.A. - - 106 Sewell, James Edwards, D.D., Vice-Chancellor 1 Smith, Goldwin, M.A. . - ... 104 Strachan-Davidson, James Leigh, M.A. - 234 Stubbs, Rev. William, M.A. - - - 74 Stubbs, Rev. William, M.A., as Curator of the Bodleian Library ... 248 Talbot, Rev. Edward Stuart, M.A. - - 259 Thorley, George Earlam, M.A. - - 131 Thursfield, James Richard, M.A. - - 111 University Chest, Curators of the - - 249 Ward, Rev. George Sturton, M.A., and Kitchin, Rev. George William, M.A. - 160 Westwood, John Obadiah, M.A. - - 195 Williams, Monier, M.A. ... 176 Wilson, John Charles, M.A., B.C.L. - - 69 Wilson, John Cook, M.A. - - - 55 Wordsworth, Rev. John, M.A. - - - 315 Yule, Charles John Francis, M.A. - - 223 I\ I I N U T E S 0 F E V I ]3 E N C E TAKEN BEEOUE THE UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSIONERS. OXFORD. Tuesday, 23rd October 1877. Pkesent : The Right Honourable LORD SELBORNE in the Chair. The Right IIon. The Earl of Redesdale. 1 The Rev. James Bellamy, D.D. The Right Hon. Mountague Bernard, D.C.L. | Professor Henry J. S. Smith, M.A. The Rev. T. Vere Bayne and T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretaries. The Rev. Dr. Sewell, Vice-Chancellor of Oxford University, examined. 1. {Chairman.) We have had your letter read, in which you say that tlie views which the Hebdomadal Council take of the matter before us are in your opinion sufficiently reoresented in their report, and that you do not wish to state any personal views which you may entertain, at all events so far as any controversy may exist. There are, however, one or two subjects on which you may not object to give us a little information, and upon which I will venture to ask yoij for it. On reading the report of the Council, I observe that with regard to the detail of the addi- tional professorships and readerships which are re- commended in that report no reasons are given in the report, but there are appended to it certain papers which have come from the Boards of Studies and some of the university professors. The Commissioners, I suppose, aie to understand that the reasons which influenced the Council may be collected from those papers ? — Y^es, I should think so. 2. With respect to the resources of the university and the probable cost of the additional buildings which are mentioned, these papers do not contain any infor- mation on those subjects. Can you tell us whether the statement in the report which I hold in my hand with regard to the university funds may be taken at the present time as a complete statement, or would any corrections of it or any supplement to it be desirable ? — I have not referred to the report as given in the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, but I should think that the probability is that there is very little alteration. ♦ 3. The Commissioners have sent round a circular, which you as head of New College no doubt have received, asking upon that subject from the different colleges for the information which is necessary to enable the Commissioners to form an opinion. Can similar information be given to them on the part of the university ? — Probably the curators of the chest as a body would be the parties to whom such an applica- tion would be better made, and from whom the Commissioners would get the most certain and definite reply. Of course the curators of the chest would be exceedingly glad to supply any information at the present moment. 4. This report, I think, does not take into account, as part of the university funds or endowments, any- thing which comes from the press. The Commis- sioners would probably like to know, at least as far as the nature of the business carried on by the press Q 6223. Wt. 9800. makes it desirable that they should know, what prac- tical reliance may be placed upon resources from that quarter ? — Upon that subject probably the Delegates of the Press would be the persons to whom it would be proper to apply. The Vice-Chancellor, as your lordship is aware, only occupies the post of chairman of these bodies during the time for which he holds the office. There are permanent delegates. 5. Perhaps you, as Vice-Chancellor, may be able to give the Commission some information upon the sub- ject of unattached students; probably their exact number would be best got from the censors, whom we can see on another day ; but is there a continual tendency to an increase in the number of unattached students ? — There is. 6. F'rom what you have seen of the working of the system, do you anticipate that that will go on to a large extent? — It has grown; I do not know what limit there will be to its growth. The class of persons who come, I presume, would not increase very largely, but there has been rather an increase. 7. Are they chiefly poor students to whom economy is a great object, or are they from other classes also who from different reasons may prefer being un- attached ? — I should think that they are chiefly those to whom an economical life at the university is most important. 8. Have religious questions any influence upon it ? — Within luy knowledge I have seen nothing of that kind. 9. You have no reason to suppose that Noncon- formists, for instance, prefer to come as unattached students? — I think not; but those are points upon which the censors, who have had the working of the system throughout, will be able to give the Com- missioners more accurate information than 1 can give. 10. What is the present provision which is made in the university for the instruction of unattached students ? — We have just appointed tutors, but only for a certain time previous to their taking their moderations. I think that this term is the first time that the delegates have made such a provision. When they were first started they were voluntary tutors; there were a certain number of masters of arts who were ready and willing to give assistance. 11. And now, up to the time of moderations, the university provides tutors? — Yes, from the funds at the disposal of the delegacy. The delegacy is a self-supporting institution; the university finds no funds out of the university chest. OXFORD. Rev. Dr. Sewell. 23 Oct. 1877. A 2 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. Dr. Sewell. 23 Oct. 1877. 12. They are supported by the fees which the students pay ? — Yes. 13. How many of those teachers ai-e there? — We have only appointed two this term. 14'. Do their duties cease as to each particular student when he passes his moderations. — I believe so. 15. For the rest of his course he must provide his own instruction, either by finding tutors or by at- tending the lectures of university professors and teachers ? — Yes. Some colleges may give lectures. I think that all those points are points which you will get more accurately answered by the censors. 16. Are the students in the halls taught exactly like those at colleges, or are they in the same situation as the unattached students. Is the system of internal tuition in halls exactly the same as in colleges ?— I believe so. I never heard of any difference. 17. Is there any other subject on which you are pre- pared to render any assistance to the Commissioners ? — If I can give any assistance I shall be extremely glad to do so. One of the requirements of the university is that which is the occasion of their great regret at not having been able to place at the disposal of the Com- missioners rooms, which they otherwise would have been very glad to do. 18. With regard to the buildings which in this report it is said will be necessary, has any estimate been made of the probable cost of the particular buildings which are mentioned at pages 6 and 7 of this document? — I think not. 19. I may read the passage, so as to refresh your memory, it is first mentioned what the university is already doing, or is about to do, with respect to the schools and so on, and it then states “ A con- “ siderable sum is further required for other repairs “ and improvements in the Bodleian, in particular for “ the adaptation of the existing schools to the pur- “ poses of the library. There is also great and in- “ creasing inconvenience arising from the want of “ proper rooms and offices for conducting the business “ of the university, and especially in the departments “ of the delegacies of unattached students, lodging- “ houses, and local examinations.” It then states some requirements of the censors of unattached students. It then says, “ In connexion with the “ requirements of the School of Literse Humaniores “ the Council recommend the establishment of a “ Museum of Classical Archaeology. In connexion “ with the requirements of the School of Natural “ Science the Council make recommendations which “ will be found under the heads of Biology, Physics, “ Chemistry, and Geology,” involving an enlarge- ment of the museum or of rooms in which demon- strations may take place, “ There is a pressing need of “ proper lectui'e rooms for the use of professors ’ ; and then a reference to a former report is made, and it is recommended “ that from eight to ten rooms should “ be provided, each capable of holding an audience of “ 60, and from 16 to 20 private rooms. That one large “ lecture room should be provided capable of holding “ an audience of from 100 to 150 persons. That the “ large lecture room at the museum should be re- “ arranged and completely fitted for the purposes of “ scientific lectures and demonstrations. That the “ Sheldonian Theatre should be better adapted for the “ accommodation of large audiences.” I understand you to say that nothing like a definite scheme or estimate of cost has been arrived at upon those sub- jects ? — Not at all. 20. And probably without that, you would be unable to answer the further question which we should ask, namely, whether the university funds already existing will be clearly sufficient or insufficient for those pur- poses ? — The present funds, I think, would not be sufficient. 21. {Mr. Bernard.) But that I suppose we can learn from the curators of the chest ? — Yes. With regard to the modes of meeting the requirements, no doubt the present income of the university is sufficient to meet all its expenses and to leave a balance year by year, but that balance certainly would not be sufficient, as far as one can judge, to enable the univer- sity to effect these objects from its own resources. I am not quite sure that the university has yet fully examined or exhausted its own resources, or improved them to the utmost. I have for a long time enter- tained the opinion that the university ought to im- prove its income by requiring of all the students who come here a larger sum by way of university fees. An undergraduate now pays 1/. a year ; and when it is considered that in the course of the last 50 years sums, which I suppose if capitalized would amount to more than 300,000/., have been spent upon providing the instruction and means of literary advancement in the university, it is not an unfair thing to ask of those who come here now that they should, instead of pav- ing 1/. a year, jmy something more. It has always appeared to me to be the duty of the rrniversity first of all to see what are its own resources, and what it can make available before looking elsewhere for money. No doubt money is the chief thing which is wanted for all these purposes, and if each undergraduate, instead of paying as now 5s. a term, was called upon to pay 10s. a term for four years during the time that his education is going on, it would of course improve the funds. There are now between 600 and 700 undergraduates matriculated every year ; last year there were 650, one year there were 700. In the course of four years that would give between 2,000/. and 3,000/. additional income. Then if the university funds could be relieved of the charges which it has now placed upon itself by the payment of professors, if colleges, could relieve the funds of the university to a considerable extent, upwards of 5,000/. a year being now paid out of the university chest, I am not at all sure that the university might not in the course of a few years find itself able to meet really all which is requisite to supply the payments which are here spoken of. The immediate capital required the university may not have at command, but of course it might borrow money, and would have as one part of the arrangement to repay it and to pay interest upon it. 22. {Chairman.) Do you think that any of those members of the Council who were active in drawing up that report had gone into any calculation as to the possible expense of these things ? — I think not. The IBodleian curators have a committee sitting to see what should be done with the Bodleian when the new schools are available ; and the whole building which is now enclosed in the Bodleian quadrangle would be available for the Bodleian ; but that committee has not reported to the curators, and no report has been made by them. 23. Is the plan of the new schools such that the whole of the building to be erected will be entirely occupied by the schools ? — For the greater portion of the year it would be available for any purposes, and would only be required for the schools during exami- nations. 24. Are there only just as many rooms and stories as would be necessary for school examinations ? — There would be a considerable number of rooms available. The difficulty in using them for professors would be that they might be required to be occupied at times when the professors were giving their lectures, and they might be obliged to give up their rooms when they were in the midst of their lectures, which would be inconvenient. 25. That of course applies to any rooms which are actually necessary for the examinations.^ — Yes. 26. But if there are extra rooms it may not apply to them ? — It may not apply to them. 27. Who is the best person from whom to obtain information as to the plan of the new schools, so as to know to what extent that building would be available? — I think that the curators of the chest, who are responsible for carrying on the work, would be the persons who would supply that information. That would be best done by giving a plan of the buildings themselves. The witness withdrew. UNIVERSITY OP OXPORt) COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 3 The Rev. Bartholomew Price, M.A., Sedleian Professor of Natural Philosophy, examined. 28. {Ckairma7i.) You, I believe, have paid attention to the subject of the finances of the university ? — Yes. 29. Have you considered the scheme of additional accommodation which in their report the Hebdomadal Council say may be required for the purposes of the university ? — Yes. 30. Has it occurred to you to consider the ways and means, and what money would be wanted for the purpose ? — The first part of the report refers to institutions, I think. 31. The first thing mentioned is improvements of the existing schools for the purposes of the Bodleian and other things connected with the Bodleian, then ac- commodation for the delegacies of unattached students, lodging houses, and local examinations; then, accommo- dation in connexion with the requirements of the School of Literal Humaniores ; then, a museum in connexion with the requirements of the School of Natural Science, under the heads of Biology, Physics, Chemistry, and Geology; and also proper lecture rooms for professors, as to which some details are given ? — The university has made arrangements for the new schools, and a contract is taken. The total outlay on the new schools exclusive of the site will be not less than 100, 000^. We have already expended about 8,500/. on the foundations ; a contract is taken for 68,000/., in addition to which 2,500/. is an extra expense for procuring better stone. That makes 79,000/. already spent or contracted to be spent. The excepted work which the architect has taken out is put by him at 7,000/,, and he wishes us to spend 15,000/. on it ; the excepted work being a tessellated pavement for the hall, various iron beams round the building, and various doorways which he wishes to be made of marble. This makes 7,000/. at least, which brings it up to 86,000/., in addition to which the heating is about 1,600/., the .architect’s commission 4,500/., the clerk of the works in the four years nearly 1,000/. ; and then we shall have the building handed over to us without furniture or gas burners. 32. {Earl of Redesdale.') Has drainage been pro- vided for ? — Drainage and waterclosets are provided for. That brings it up to about 97,000/. or 98,000/. The sum mentioned to Convocation was 62,000/. 33. {Prof. Smith.) The 97,000/. or 98,000/. does not include the furniture ? — No. 34. {Earl of Redesdale.) Nor any estimate for the site ? — The site has already cost 39,000/. 35. {Chairman.) Has that been paid for ? — It has all been paid for except about 900/. Some part of the site was bought of Magdalen College and of Christ Church, and was subject to leases for a certain number of years ; on this account annuities are paid back to us over and .above the reserved rents. But I think that the new schools v,^ill not cost much less on the whole than 150,000/. 36. But the amount remaining to be paid may be taken at 95,000/. plus the expense of fitting up and furnishing ? — Not quite so much, because we have paid 8,500/. for the foundations. If you will allow me to refer to the abstract which was drawn up a very short time ago by the curators of the university chest for the use of the Council, it appears that we estimate that it will cost about 92,000/. more, and this money has to be provided. 37. Will you state where the money is to come from ? — There are also other liabdities, namely, the Bodleian Library (repairs to the fabric), 2,500/., the Botanic Garden, 1,153/., the Chemical Laboratories, 7,000/., the University Observatory, 2,400/,, the City of Oxford Prisons Bill, (that is as compensation to the city for the loss of the city gaol), 400/. 38. Are those all liabilities as yet unsatisfied ? — Yes. There is also the restoration of the chancel of a church, of which the university is the impropriate rector and holds the rectorial tithes, viz., Syston in Leicester- sbh-e, 600/. That increases our liabilities to 106,653/. 39. What resources arc relied upon to meet those Liabilities ? — We have resources amounting to about 50,000/. to meet them, namely, 3,000/. East India five per cent, stock, 28,500/. Reduced three per cents., 18,200/. Consols (dues compositions), and 2,825/. Consols, the benefaction of Dr. Wills, a late warden of Wadham College. 40. Then there is a deficiency of about 56,000/. ? — Yes. 41. {Dr. Bellamy^ And that includes spending the composition money ? — Yes. 42. {Chairman.) To meet that deficiency what sur- pluses of university income from year to year may be relied upon ? — That is a difficult question to answei-, but in the first place the expenditure of 50,000/, diminishes our income by 1,500/. a year. Then if we are to borrow money to erect these buildings, if we have to borrow 40,000/. it will give us 1,200/. a year interest to pay if we can get it at three per cent., but we are not likely to get it under four per cent. Thus four per cent, upon 40,000/. is 1,600/. a year, besides 1,500/. which we shall have lost, which makes 3,100/, Then that 40,000/., or whatever the sum borrowed is, must be paid off in 30 years under the Universities and College Estates Act, because we can only borrow by mortgaging our estates ; the interest of course will diminish from year to year. In addition to that we shall have the charge on the new schools, and the charges on so large a building for insurance, rates, gas, water, attendance, cannot be put at less than 600/. or 700/. a year. 43. The total annual estimated charge, which includes the charge of paying off the capital borrowed in 30 years, is how much ? — I cannot tell for certain, but probably between 4,000/. and 5,000/. a year. 44. Does that exceed any surplus of university Income which can be reckoned upon ? — The ordinary surplus income of the university is now between 2,500/. and 5,000/. 45. Does that include an estimate of the probable surpluses to be handed over from the press ? — It does not ; it is exclusive of that, I think that you may put the university income at between 34,000/. and 35,000/., and the expenditure at about 31,000/., exclu- sive of the balances from the press. 46. We had under our eyes yesterday a return made to Parliament last year, from which it appeared that in some former years large balances of from J 0,000/. to 12,000/. a year were handed over from the press for a good many years consecutively, and that latterly the amount has been much less, varying from 1,000/. to 2,000/. ? — Yes, that is the case. 47. And the impression existed with some of us that there might be some increase in the future balances ? — I think there may be. It is impossible to say what the money transferred from a large commercial concern in the year may be. The university has taken a very just view of that matter, and has resolved that any moneys transferred from the press are not to be looked upon as income, but are to be invested as capital. 48. Still one would think it a very proper appro- priation of it as capital to apply it in buildings ? — 1 am the Secretary to the Delegates of the Press, but am not a delegate, and I am not at liberty to say anything upon that subject without the sanction of the Board; but if the Board gives that sanction I can explain all, 49. We hope to have that infonnation afterwards ; we were aware that their sanction should be first asked for. You have mentioned among the liabilities 1,150/. for work at the Botanical Garden, and In this statement, which is dated 19th March 1877, 2,200/. is mentioned as authorised by decrees dated in 1876. I suppose from what you say that half that money has been already laid out? — Yes; but we have an obliga- tion to a greater extent than that ; the lease from Magdalen College, which, however, is not yet sealed, involves an expenditure of 5,400/. upon the garden. 50. Then I presume that the question which is touched in these papers of removing the Botanical A 2 OXFORD. Rev. B. Price. 23 Oct. 1877. 4 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Etv. B, Price, 23 Oct. 1877. Gardens to the neighbourhood of the museum has been decided in the negative? — Yes, practically. 51. Are we to consider that as a question which has been concluded? — I think so. 52. Of course there is something which seems reasonable in the suggestion that that would be the best place, the soil being suitable? — 1 think that the Botanical Gardens ought to be removed there. I do not like laying out 6,000/. or 7,000/. upon other people’s property. Sir Joseph Hooker was of opinion that the soil was perfectly good, and I should have been prepared to have laid out the money there independently of scientific considerations. 53. However, financially, it would costa considerable sum to do it, would it not ? — We had an estimate for it ; it would perhaps cost 10,000/., and we are spending 5,000/. or 6,000/. upon the Botanical Gardens on repairs, and so on. 54. (£arl of Bedcsdalc.) What rent do you pay ? — It has only been a nominal rent, but iMagdalen College are now asking a rental I think of 30/. a year. 55. {Chairman.') That, although not nominal, is I suppose a very small rent ? — Yes, it is not adequate at all to the value of the property. 56. Is the whole garden upon that leasehold tenure ? — No, only the part within the walls ; the whole of that which is outside the walls, at all events on the north side and the west side, is retained by the college; we have the access and the passage across from High Street to the walls, and I rather think the east side, but I am not sure. 57. {Prof. Smith.) We have under the new lease whatever we had under the old one ? — Yes, but no more ; that is to say, we are to have it ; the lease is not sealed. 58. {Mr. Bernard.) Your estimate of the surplus income of the university considerably exceeds the rough estimate made by the Duke of Cleveland’s Com- mission, does it not? — I cannot tell, as these things vary so much from year to year ; that was six years ago. My statement of figures was prepared last week to be laid before you. The dues fund increases year by year ; in the la^t five or six years we have been able to invest 2,000/. or .3,000/. every year. 59. Would not the schools which are to cost this very large sum afford some accommodation for lecture rooms, or for other university business, as well as for examinations alone ? — I should think that they might, but they are chiefly required during the latter part of the October term, and in the summer terms ; the latter part of the October term is one when lectures are being given, and the rooms w'ould not be available. In the estimate of the service required no allowance is made for anything besides examination rooms proper and their appurtenances. 60. The demand for lecture rooms in the university is considerable, and increasing, is it not — Yes. 61. That would open a prospect of some further considerable expense if it had to be satisfied ? — ^Yes. 62. But as to that it would, I suppose, be impossible or difficult to make calculations unless we knew where and upon what property the rooms wanted might be built? — Yes, the site would probably be very expensive. 63. {Chairman.) Has any site been thought of for that purpose ? — Yes, we thought of a site some years ago between New College Lane and Holywell Street which would have cost 30,000/., and the university were frightened at it, but the site of the new schools has cost us 39,000/. 64. Is the school building to be a low building or a high one ? — A high building. 65. Of how many floors ? — The greater part of it two only, because the paper work rooms are upstairs, and they are lofty — they are from 30 to 40 feet high, I mean from the floor of the rooms to the ridge of the roof, and the viva voce rooms are on the ground floor. In some part of it there are I think two storeys and an entresol. 66. And the school is literally confined to the number of rooms which are necessary for the examina- tions while they are going on ? — Yes. May I mention that the direction in which it appears to me that the university income may be improved is by^ the colleges taking on themselves the sums which we pay to pro- fessoi s. The sums which we so pay amount to between 5,000/. and 5,500/. a year. 67. fhat is to say, ih.at if the whole expense of maintaining the professoriate were transferred to the colleges, that occurs to you to be the most likely mode of setting free the university funds for purposes of this description ? — Only the sums for the payment of the personnel, besides the trust endowments ; the trust endowments are very large and we have no return of them ; they were printed for the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, but are not ordinarily printed. If the sum paid out of the general university fund were transferred to the colleges, the fund would be improved to that extent. 68. {3Ir. Bernard.) Arc you of opinion that any considerable increase of income might be derived from an augmentation of the university fees and dues ? — I rather doubt it. I do not think that you could increase the fees payable by old members who have taken a degree, because they would then take off their names, and I very much doubt whether you would increase the income if you raised the fees to undergraduate members, because our fees are now above the Cam- bridge ones, and the effect of that may be that a per- son would go to Cambridge rather than come to us. 69. The actual annual payment by an undergraduate is small ? — Very small ; it is only 1/. a year. 70. Do you think that an increase of another pound would send undergraduates to Cambridge ? — Whether the sum at Cambridge is 18s. \0d. or 17s. 10c?., I forget. It might do so. But I think that you might make them pay in another way. I think that they should pay fees for lectures. 71. {Chairman.) Have you any reason for thinking that a narrow com{)arison of expenses has much influence in deciding the choice of university ?— I think so. 72. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you think that an increase, say of 10s. or 1/. a year, would be much felt by the parents of young men coming here ? — I should not think that it would. 73. {Dr. Bellamy.) Cambridge is at present con- sidered to be cheap ? — Yes. 1 should not myself object to raising the fees from 1/. to 2/. a year, and the effect of that would be to increase our income, I suppose, 2,000/. a year. That applies to persons under the degree of B.A. 74. {Mr. Bernard.) The addition of 1/. to the fees of all persons under the B.A. degree would produce about 2,000/. a year to the university? — Something like that, 1 believe. 75. {Chairman.) We see that you, as chairman of the Board of Studies in the School of Mathematics, signed a report made to the Vice-Chancellor in the year 1873, and I presume that such a report was also made in a later year ? — Yes. At the later time I was not present. Professor Smith was in the chair then. 76. In that report I observe that the Board re- commend the addition of two professors in the branch of pure mathematics, and two in that of applied mathe- matics, with some indefinite number of readers, I sup- pose, in both branches; and the Hebdomadal Council has not adopted exactly that recommendation, but they have recommended one jwofessor in each branch, namely, one in pure and one in applied mathematics, and two readers in each branch ? — Yes. 77. I may first ask you whether in substance the views of your Board are satisfied by that variation, you having asked for an indefinite number of readers and two professors in each branch, and they having suggested one professor in each branch and two readers in each branch. Is ihe difference between your recommendation and theirs one to which you M'ould attach much importance ? — I was in a minority in the Board when that report was signed ; but being chairman, I signed it and passed it on. 78. Of course upon that occasion you acted for the Board ; but we ask you for your individual opinion, UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, O and not in your official capacity as chairman of the Board. Will you have the goodness to state exactly for what reason, as far as you can judge, the Board thought that two additional professors in each branch were necessary. They do not in this report suggest a subdivision of the subjects which those professors are to teach. Was it their intention to leave that open ? — Yes, they thought it much better for that to be settled by the professors themselves. It is a subject of considerable range, and it was thought that the professors had better divide the subjects between themselves as was found convenient to them. Perhaps I may say that I have a very great doubt as to the expediency of creating this large number of professors. It appears to me that you create a number of offices which become vested interests, and they may very quickly become sinecures unless some very strict precautions are taken that they shall not be so. I myself should prefer that the supply should follow the demand rather than that the demand should follow the supply. 79. The methods of supplying the wants of the university which are suggested in this book may apparently be divided into four classes of teachers ; first, permanent professors ; then permanent readers ; then professors or readers, not permanent, but ap- pointed during life or the incumbency of the individual ; and lastly, occasional or temporary lecturers ? — Yes. 80. Taking the subject of mathematics in par- ticular, what is the advantage of having a professor rather than a reader, assuming that the staff of in- structors should be increased ? — The desire is to have a person who shall enter fully, through a great part of his life, into a subject of that kind, so that the level of the science may be kept up in addition to his teaching. 81. The reader would be a person who could give the instruction which was wanted in proportion to the demand for it, would he not ? — To a certain extent ; but there is another demand besides the teaching de- mand, per se, namely, that of advancing the subject itself. 82. That is called research ? — Yes. 83. Of course there is the object of instruction and education, and there is the object of representing the science and advancing and promoting it ? — Yes. 8t. One understands that the appointment of a professor may be more useful for the latter purpose ; but for the former purpose, namely, that of instruc- tion and education, I suppose that a reader would be as serviceable as a professor, would he not ? — Not quite so, I take it. I take it that professors’ lectures are for the most part of a higher character than the lectures of a reader would be. 85. But in mathematics, both pure and applied, I suppose that the matter in its nature is not adapted to lecturing so much as to catechetical teaching ? — I think that is not so. I think lliat lectures may be given in mathematics as advanta- geously as in anything else. It is not by catechetical teaching only but by lecturing (hat the pupil is taught. 86. In which the professor alone speaks ? — Yes, and the students take notes. He gives illustrations, and also problems and questions, and the answers to these are brought afterwards. 87. Is that in pure mathematics as well as in applied mathematics ?— Professor Smith can speak as to pure mathematics ; my branch is applied mathematics. 88. {Prof. Smith.) It is the same; is it not ? — Yes. 89. {3Ir. Bernard.) What do you lecture upon in this term ? — Higher dynamics. 90. {Chairman.) Am I to understand you to say that it would be possible to give a lecture of the de- scription which you have been mentioning upon the differential calculus? — Quite so. We must bear in mind that our teaching staff in this place is endowed with some 30,000/. a year or more, which is the tuition fund raised in colleges for college tutors. 91. There seems to be a great distinction between those studies which are pursued actively in the col- leges and those which are not ? — Yes. 92. As to classics and mathematics, we may lake it that all colleges hold themselves bound to provide as good instruction as they can. Is that so ? — In mathe- matics it is not so, I think. Many colleges provide scarcely any higher mathematical instruction. If they have one or two men requiring it, they send them out elsewhere to get mathematical instruction. 94. Then to what extent are the mathematical stu- dents dependent upon university as distinct from college instruction ? — I think that they go to other college instructors and to the lectures of the combined system, and these lecturers are very much what readers would become. 95. I pre.sume the effect of that is that where you have college instruction a greater number of students in that branch of knowledge go to it ? — Yes, but they also come to the professor’s lectures. 96. Then they are not required by their colleges to go to that college instruction ? — Usually they are, I think. 97. {Mr. Bernard.) Does that mean the instruction given in the particular college to which the student belongs ? — Not always ; it is the instruction cf Ute mathematical teacher who acts for several colleges. 98. {Chairman.) Take the case of the combined classes. Suppose that there is a mathematical tutor of Christ Church, who gives instruction to Christ Church men, and also to those coming from any other college. I suppose that those colleges which do not give it themselves would require their students to attend those combined classes? — Yes. 99. {Mr. Bernard.) He would act as a reader would act? — Yes. 100. {Chairman.) He would act as a joint reader or tutor for those colleges ? — Yes. 101. And as long as that system continued, I sup- pose that it would be only zealous and advanced students who would go both to the college lectures and to the university lectures ? — Usually my lectures are such that the college teachers do not take the subjects which I take in the same term, and I often go to more advanced stages than the college teachers. 102. Are those who attend your lectures generally undergraduates or graduates ? — Most of them are undergraduates, before they take their degrees. They are students who have passed moderations and are preparing for the last examinations, and almost all of them are first-class men. 103. And the subjects in which you lecture are, generally speaking, more advanced than those of the college teachers ? — Yes, for the most part. 104. And yet they are necessarily for the higher honours in the schools ? — Yes, and for the senior mathematical scholarship. 105. What is the number of students upon the average who attend those lectures? — Last Hiliary Term there were 25 ; last term there were 6 ; this term there are 10 ; they vary from 5 to 25 ; the average may be taken as 15. 106. Supposing that the addition were made which is recommended by the Board of Studies in this paper, namely, two additional professors to each branch, do you suppose that some students would go to each of the professors ? — That would entirely depend upon the subject on which they lectured ; if they lectured upon a subject not in the curricidum of examination the students would probably not go ; if the subjects were put in the curricidum of examination, then they would go. 107. But I suppose that a multiplication of lectures and of professors tends to a diminution of the num- ber of students attending each, from the mere time required ? — Quite so. 108. {Prof. Smith.) Does it not also tend to relieve the college tutors of a certain portion of their work ? — Yes. 1 09. ( Chairman.) But would the readers be attended in addition ; would they have the same students for their classes, or different students ? — For the most part the same, I think. 110. How many professors are there now in these subjects ? — Two. A 3 OXFORD. Rev. B. Price, 23 Oct. 1S77. 6 UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. B, Price, 23 Oct. 1877. 111. So that if the whole of the scheme recom- mended by the Board of Studies were carried into effect there would be six ? — Yes. 112. That being an increase of four ? — Yes. 113. There would be six professors; the number of readers is not mentioned ; if we take the number of readers recommended by the Hebdomadal Council, namely, two, that would make eight instead of two ? —Yes. 114. And we may assume that the same students would not go to all the eight, and therefore there would be a subdivision of the number of students between this additional staff of professors ? — Yes. 115. Would not that cause rather a diminution of stimulus to the professor ? — He wmuld have more time for research. 116. Or if he were not a very active-minded man he would have more time for other pursuits ? — Yes. 117. Y'ou could not have eight professors, I sup- pose, of quite the same quality as two ? — I do not know, but you might easily find a sufficient number of men to fill the offices. 118. {Earl oj Redesdale.) If you had the eight professors, do you think that the number of pupils coming to them would be immediately increased ? — A little increased but not very much. 119. {Dr. Bellamy.) Y^ou suppose that it would have the effect of very much diminishing the amount of college instruction given ? — I should think so. 120. In your experience is private tuition in mathe- matics still as prevalent among university men as it used to be ? — I think that it has nearly come to an end. 121. {Chairman.) What is the cause of that; is it to be attributed to the combined lectures in the colleges ? — I think so 122. {Dr. Bellamy^ They get better instruction in college ? — Perhaps. 123. {Chairman.) I just now used the expression “ eight professors,” that I am aware is not suggested, but six professors and two readers ? — Yes. 124. With regard to mathematical studies at the university generally, is there any decided increase in the number of students ? — I think so. 125. I observe that in a paper of Professor Maske- lyne in this book he makes an observation which seems to recommend itself, namely, that for some of the subjects in natural science a mathematical founda- tion is highly important, and he speaks as if there was a want of it; are you aware whether there is a tendency to co-operation between the two schools of mathematics and natural science in the university ? — I think so. 126. Do a considerable number of the same students go ? — Only as regards one part of it; with almost all Professor Clifton’s students it is so, but not as to chemists. 127. Mr. Maskelyne makes a reference to it as regards crystallography, and so on ? — I do not think there are many students in crystallography. 128. Then you think that there has been a decided increase both in the number of students and in their attainments? — I think so. 129. Do you think that the predominance of Cam- bridge in that respect operates less than it used to do ? — I think so, inasmuch as we give more encourage- ment to mathematics now. 130. A young man with a mathematical turn would generally be sent by his parents and friends to Cam- bridge now as formerly ? — I think so. 131. Do you think that that will continue to be the case ? — It quite depends upon the encouragement we give and on the prizes ; we get more men because more scholarships are given to them. 132. {Dr. Bellamy.) The increase in the number of men reading mathematics I suppose is chiefly in the pure mathematics? — No, I think that there has also been an increase in the other school, though not so much as in the pure mathematics ; this increase is in a great degree due, I think, to the lectures of Professor Smith. But frequently after a certain time the subject is dropped. 133. {Chairman.) Among the suggestions which we find in this book there is one for the establishment of a professor of mechanics and engineering, which is classified under the head of natural science ; would it not seem to belong to mathematics quite as much as to natural science ? — I suppose that it comes in the natural science classification ; it is applied mechanics, or pure mechanism. 134. And it would seem naturally to belong to the mathematical school ? — Scarcely so ; one of the chief things would be the steam engine, and there you come into the questions of heat and expansion, and so on, which are subjects of physics so called. 135. I suppose that when you teach dynamics you simply teach them in the abstract ? — For the most part; but I give practical illustrations as far as I can ; I explain a pendulum and the motion of billiard balls, and things of that sort, as practical illustrations of mechanical equations. 136. {Mr. Bernaid.) You have an opinion yourself as to the expediency of a professorship of applied mechanics ? — Y’’es, I am very strongly in its favour. 137. There are such professorships, I think, in some other universities ? — Yes, in Cambridge there is one, which was lately filled by Professor Willis, a professor of great eminence. 138. And in some American universities I think ? — Yes, I think in all of them, and in King’s College, London. 139. Are you quite satisfied with the system of combined college lectures as applied to mathematics ? — I should not have joined it ; 1 never did join it myself. 140. Do you think that it has defects ? — I think that it has a deteriorating effect upon the teachers themselves. 141. Why? — Because they keep themselves as far as they can to one j)articular line, and thus are in danger of losing the grasp of the general mathematical knowledge. 142. Supposing that they were converted into uni- versity readers, would the system be liable to the same defect ? — Scarcely so, because they would lecture a class, and look over exercises, and give problems, and thus have a more extensive range. 143. I will read the following passage in the second report of the Board of Mathematical Studies as bearing on that point ; it is at page 89 of this book : “ There is a want of organisation in the existing “ arrangements for the mathematical teaching of the “ university, which in the opinion of the Board “ involves the double consequence of a waste of power, “ and of inadequate provision for instruction in some “ of the more important branches. The older system “ according to which the lecturer in each college pre- “ pared his pupils for examination in all the subjects “ recognised in the school is only partially retained, “ and has been supplemented in certain colleges by a “ system of ‘ combined lectures.’ However useful “ this system may be within the limits to which it is “ confined, it depends entirely upon private arrange- “ ment among the lecturers themselves, and conse- “ quently offers no sufficient guarantee, either of “ permanence or (when the I'equirements of the whole “ body of mathematical students are taken into “ account) of adequacy in the amount and variety of “ the instruction given.” Should you agree with that passage generally ? — Yes. 144. Do you consider that the system of combined college lectures is likely to be more than a transitional system V — I think not. 145. {Chairman.) I do not see in the mathematical papers the same suggestion as is found in the classical, and particularly in the report of the Board of Classical Studies, that the university readers should also be at liberty to hold tutorships in the colleges. The passage to which I particularly refer is at page 19, “ That “ readerships shall be tenable with college tutorships “ and lectureships.” Would you be of opinion that UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 7 that is a desirable arrangement for tlie mathematical school ? — T think so. 146. Bernard.) Is mathematical science generally acquiring a great development at this time ? — Yes, very great. 147. There is a statement in this report that the vastness of the range of the subjects included under pure and applied mathematics, and the activity with which inquiry and research in these subjects are carried on in the scientific world, are a reason why we should keep up and augment our teaching staff ; is that your opinion ? — I quite concur in that. 148. {Chairman.) With regard to the mode of appointing the professors, do you agree in what is recommended by the Committee of the Hebdomadal Council ? — The best mode of appointment I think is by a board (I am not particular about the number) consisting of five or seven, and I think it is very desirable that there should be some member of the university on the board, and some externals, if you can get them. I think that the chancellor should be a member of the board ; I was strongly of that opinion, but it did not meet with favour. It appears to me very desirable to make the chancellor more of a living power. 149. I do not know whether you have observed the concluding words of the Report of the Hebdomadal Council, “They would observe that the changes or “ extensions which they have proposed, if approved, “ could only be made gradually and that thus the “ danger of trying an experiment upon a large scale “ would be to a certain extent avoided ” ? — Yes. 150. What exactly are we to understand by that passage ? — I think that the total cost of all that was recommended would amount to something like 65,000/, a year, upon a very moderate estimate, and it could only be done by degrees, and not all at once, 151. Then you understand it to refer to the matter financially ? — It presented itself to my mind in that form ; perhaps other people would take a different view of it, 152. The words are not only “ they could only be made gradually,” but “ thus the danger of trying an “ experiment upon a large scale would be to a certain “ extent avoided.” That seems to look as if some danger not of a financial kind were in the minds of those who prepared that passage ? — Yes. There is an omission, there, I think, namely, as to whether persons attending professors and readers should pay fees or not. I am strongly of opinion that they should pay fees, both for the benfit of the teachers and of the men themselves. I think that you should bring every possible motive to bear upon the teacher, and the selfish one always affects him, and I should compel him to take fees. 153. I rather infer, from what you have said with regard to the arrangement of subjects among the teachers, that you do not contemplate, and this paper does not contemplate, competition as between the professors and the readers ? — No, I should not con- template that at all. I should look at the professor as the head of the department, and at the reader as working in conjunction with him, and they should arrange among themselves as to the course of lectures to be given upon a particular subject. 1 54. Do you know whether in foreign universities free competition is allowed among teachers ; can they come forward voluntarily and teach, and get what fees they can, within certain limits, from their pupils ? — I do not know. 155. Of course it might be a stimulus for a teacher OXFORD. to give such lectures as would attract the largest number of pupils? — Yes ; but there is always a cor- rective to that, namely, the examination. If his 33 0*^877. lectures do not bear upon the examinations he may ‘ not get many attendants. 156. But they might bear upon classes? — Then he would get attendants. 157. If there were a free system he would seek to attract the greatest number of paying students ? — Yes. 158. (Mr. Bernard^ I suppose that if combined university readers were made a substitute for com- bined college lecturers, it would be fair that what is now paid to combined college lecturers should be paid to the university readers ? — Quite so, 159. (Chairman.) At present any Master of Arts would be at liberty to set up himself as a lecturer and to impose any fees which he thought fit, would he not ? — Yes, practically ; there is a great change in that respect. 160. Some actually do so? — Yes. In my early days, when I was a private tutor, certain fees were recognised, 10 /. a term, and so on, and it was con- sidered not proper to take more, I have many times returned fees, A person would send me 25/. instead of 10/., and I always returned the money. 161. Are there any voluntary tutors now in mathematics ? — Only two or three as far as I know. 162. But there is no impediment to it in the univer- sity system ; it might be carried to any extent as far as the university system goes ? — Yes. 163. (Prof. Smith.) But a reader would have to compete against endowed and paid teachers ? — He would ; but I should not much endow the teachers ; I should only give them a sort of retaining fee, and they should be paid for the most part by means of fees received by them for their lectures. 164. (Chairman.) If I rightly understand you, you would not give fixed stipends or salaries to the readers, but would make them dependent upon the fees ? — I would give them some small sum, say, 100 /. or 150/. a year as a retaining fee, but not an amount adequate to their services, and I would make them dependent upon their fees. 165. (Prof Smith.) If that were done, would you not have to alter the whole system of payments for tuition, and to require the colleges to pay the readers’ fees ? — Hardly so, or at all events if the system of payment by the students remains as it is now, the colleges ought, out of those payments, to pay the fees of the readers. 166. You know what is the amount of fees paid by men who read for mathematical honours in the university ; do you suppose that it would be possible out of the fees which they could pay to maintain an efficient system of teaching in all the various ranges of mathematical science? — It of course depends upon the number of readers which you have. I should think that it might be done, because you would not have more than one or two readers. 167. (Dr. Bellamy.) Then of course you con- template that college teaching would altogether cease, there being no need of it? — Yes, excepting the elementary part of it. 168. (Chairman.) I suppose that the number of unattached students who take the mathematical line is not yet very considerable ? — I have never had more than one or two. The witness withdrew. D. B. Monro, Esq., M.A., Vice-Provost of Oriel College, examined. 169. (Chairman.) You have favoured us with a letter which I have read, and perhaps the most con- venient course will be for us to ask you questions in the order of the points which you have been so good as to note. The first of them is as to the neces- sity of such an increase as is proposed in the staff of university teachers in subjects recognised in the school of Literae Humaniores. By the increase proposed I presume you mean that which the Hebdomadal Council have recommended ? — Yes, in the statement which was published. 170. In that class of subjects they have recom- mended two additional readers in philosophy, one additional professor, and one additional reader in A 4 D. B. Monro, Esq., M. A. 8 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. D. B. Monro, Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. ancient history, one additional professor of classical languages, and four additional readers in what they describe as classical subjects ; those would be the sub- jects recognised in the school of Liter® Humaniores, would they not ? — Yes. 171. Will you be good enough to state your views as to the necessity of that proposed increase ? — I think that the want has been felt for a long time of a more efficient staff of teaching, which teaching should be accessible to the whole of the university. At present the teaching is carried on by a number of different bodies, each possessing a staff of its own, which is usually a small staff. The number of subjects has very considerably increased, and certainly for some years past there has been a strong feeling that it is necessary to have more combination for teaching accessible to members of different colleges. That is carried practically to a considerable amount of combi- nation between the different colleges, and I think that the experience of that combination has shown that it would be desirable that it should be carried a little further and centralised and brought under the charge of the university. That I think would be carried out very fairly by such a plan as has been proposed by the Hebdomadal Council, by an increase, that is to say, in the university teachers, and also by creating grades, namely readers, as well as professors. 172. Are we to understand that in such teaching, for example, as that of classical languages and classical subjects, you think that the university teaching can be made to supersede college teaching ? — To a certain extent, in the same sort of way that the present com- bined college lectures supersede the isolated college lectures. 173. Do they so, or are they a supplement to them ? — They do so to this extent, I think, that in certain subjects, subjects, for instance, of the Final Classical School, almost all the honour lectures which are given are on one or other of the combined systems, but a great deal of work is done besides which is private. 174. For the passmen, of course, the work is still done in the old way ? — Chiefly. There is also a cer- tain amount of combination for the passmen ; that has begun, I think, to come in quite lately. 175. But the principal work of the combined lectures is for the honour men ? — Certainly. 176 And do you think that the system of teaching by such an increase of professorships as is recom- mended would supersede the combined lectures and make them unnecessary ? — To a considerable extent. 177. The extent of the recommendation seems to be one additional professor for classical languages and four readers in classical subjects ? — That certainly would not be adequate, the colleges would have to supplement that, but it would create a much greater amount of combination, and the advantages of combi- nation would be felt from that increase. The re- commendation- is only a partial adoption of the university system for the teaching in classical subjects. 178. As long as the colleges, either by combination or separately, have a well organised system of teaching those subjects, has not that system a tendency on the whole to monopolise the college students ? — Certainly that i.s so ; but I think that the difficulty is to create a well-organised system of college teaching in this way. 179. Whether the organisation is the best possible, or not, the nature of the college system tends, does it not, almost of necessity, independently of the actual perfections or imperfections of the way in which it is worked, to draw college students to collegiate rather than university instruction in those branches of know- ledge which the college has provided ? — I think that it depends very much upon the lecturer.^. I do not think that that can be laid down as a general rule. 180. I suppose that at present, as a fact, the students who go to the lectures say of professors of the classical languages, at all events for philological reasons, bear a small proportion, do they not, to those who are taught in those subjects in the university ? — It is difficult to answer that question without thinking of individual cases, but certainly there have been one or two eminent cases of professors of classical languages in Oxford drawing to their lectures almost the whole of the men reading for honours at any one time. 181. I was rather thinking of the purely philological teaching. Would those lectures of which you have been speaking be of a philological character ? — Mean- ing the teaching of comparative philology ? 182. I meant Latin or Greek ? — Yes, certainly there are such cases ; there is an eminent instance in both Latin and Greek within one’s memory. 183. What was the character of those lectures ; were they critical lectures on particular writers, or lectures upon the language generally ? — In each of the two cases to which I have ventured to allude I think that there was one particular writer who was very pro- minent as the subject of the lectures. I refer to Professor Conington upon Virgil and the Master of Balliol upon Plato. 184. I suppose that those lectures on Plato were as much philosophical as philological, were they not ? — They were both certainly. 185. Those lectures I suppose would be rather a supplement of the general university routine in classics than sufficient in themselves, would they not ? — I think that in point of character they would be sufficient. I do not think that men -who read those particular authors ever wanted any other help in taking them into the schools. 186. (A/?‘. Bernard.^ You would not regard it, would you, as the office of a professor in classical languages to supply all the teaching necessary in the university on such a subject ; I mean a professor as distinct from a reader? — No, certainly not; if there were readers besides, a part of the work would fall upon them. 187. What should you think would be the special office and use of the professors as a distinct class from the readers ? — I should rather avoid laying down any rule on that subject. 188. I do not mean the department they should take, but their office and use as professors ? — I should wish that the most useful man should be appointed in whatever way he appeared to be likely to be useful. There are many different ways. One, for Instance, would carry on the more advanced parts of the subject and perhaps would have very few hearers, and another man’s usefulness would consist of his power to attract a large number of hearers. 189. The persons who act as college tutors or university readers would be commonly persons who had attended the lectures of professors in their time ? — Yes, certainly, one would think so. 190. Do you think that the existence of a professor of Latin, for instance, in this university has tended to raise progressively the standard of attainment in Latin ? — I should certainly say so as to Professor Conington. 191. Should you say so with respect to the pro- fessorship of Greek, without mentioning particular persotis ? — I mention Professor Conington because he is not living. I think that that would certainly be the tendency of an eminent professor. 192. {Chairman.) But not, I suppose, entirely the teaching ? — No, because the books which Professor Conington published were useful ; he had his own way of being useful by books as well as by teaching. 193. {Mr. Bernard.) The question which I wished to ask was whether the greater activity, in these days, of the professoriate has not tended to raise the standard of classical knowledge and attainment ? — J think so certainly. 194. {Chairman.) It is perhaps a difficult question to answer, but is the standard of philological attain- ment in the Latin and Greek languages at the present time in the universiiy relatively high. 1 mean are there certain or satisfactory grounds for supposing it to be generally higher amongst the students than it may have been, say, 30 or 40 years ago ? — 1 find it UNIVEKSItY OF OXFOED COAtMiSSION : — MINTlTES OF EVIDENCE. 9 quite impossible to judge of that. I doubt whether “ dependent of the professorsliip of Hebrew and Old OXFORD. any person can do so. “ Testament Exegesis ; a professorship cf Persiaii, in- 19j. The subject of course advances continually; “ eluding Zend; a professorship of the language and but my object was to know whether the general “ antiquities of Egypt ; a proh-ssorshlp of Chinese, if average staiulard of honourmen in Latin and Greek is “ possible coupled with Tataric and Mongolic ”? — 23 Oct. 1877. higher as to the tone of scholarship than may have Yes. existed in former times when philology was less ‘206. That gives a large extension of the Literce advanced. You do not think that there are any means Humaniores School? — I think that \ our lordship is of answering that question ? — I doubt whether there referring to the subjects which lie outside the school, are any such means. However my recollection does not 207. That is very true. You had gone on to say reach sufficiently far back to judge. afer the last matter: — “I would mention classical 19G. {Prof. Smith.) Do you not think that, on the “ archaeology, the English language, and the theory whole, elegant scholarship has declined generally while “ of education.” Will you state the reasons which philological knowledge has advanced? — Yes; I think make you think that it is important to have provision that that is probable. these matters ? — Classical archaeology is a subject 197. {Chairman.) If that is go, can you suggest any which has been very much studied indifferent parts means of promoting elegant scholarship. Is there of Europe of late, but there is no provision at all in any deficiency in the university system at present the university of Oxford for it. I suppose that in connected with that fact, if it be a fact ? — I am afraid almost every foreign university there is a professor of that it is quite out of the power of any person to the subject, and generally a museum. I think that prevent it ; it is the natural tendency of things. this university is at present very much behind in that 198. {Mr. Bernard.) When we speak of scholarship particular subject. are there not three things to be considered, namely, 208. {Prof. Smith.) Are there not some collections the mastery of the classical languages shown in existing in the university already of objects which elegant composition or translation ; classical philology ; ought to be placed in an archaeological museum? — and a knowledge of the substance of classical litera- Yes, there is the Castellani collection, ture. Some of them may from time to time improve, 209. {Chairman.) And the Ashmolean ? — Yes. while others fall back, according to the prevailing 2 10. (Pro/’. And is there not also a collection mode of teaching? — I think that — adopting a diflerent of coins in the Bodleian? — I do not speak of that sub- basis of comparison, and comparing English with ject as having any acquaintance whatever with it, but German scholarship — ^in point of elegance English only as know ing that that is very much wanted, there scholarship is superior, and that a great deal of being no opportunity of studying it here compared preparatory teaching in the use of language is more with other places. satisfactory here than abroad ; but, on the other hand, 211. {Chairman.) I suppose that the professor of advanced scholarship, what is properly called philology, ancient history never lectures upon those subjects, does is carried on almost wdiolly in Germany and to a very he ? — I am not sure that he does not. I rather think small extent comparatively in this country. that he has occasionally lectured on subjects connected 199. {Chairman.) Has the division of schools at all with it, but a few lectures arc not at all what is wanted tended to diminish the relative importance of what for the purpose of keeping up the teaching and know- hasbeen called elegant scholarship. The moderations ledge of the subject in the university. take place at an early period of the undergraduate 212. {Mr. Bernard.) Can you give us some idea of course, and they I suppose chiefly deal with that what a professor of classical archaeology would do ? — branch of scholarship, do they not? — Y^’es, I think it If one may judge by what one sees in other places, he very possible, but I have no practical acquaintance would have a continuous course of lectures, perhaps with the system before moderations, and I do not three or four or five times a week, and he would spend know how far men keep their practice in composition a great deal of time in showing the objects to the pupils, and things of that sort up to the time when they took and giving them the sort of practical familiarity with their degree. objects which is necessary for classical archaeology, 200. The professorship of poetry has no great because the subject is incajiable of being treated influence in this matter, has it ? — No. merely by lectures in a theoretical way. You must 201. In former times it hardly could have been so have a practical acquaintance with the objects, because they lectured in Latin ; but the idea of the 213. Have you seen that in action anywhere ? — lectures was to lecture upon the poetry of the an- I cannot say that I have seen it. 1 have only heard cients ? — The mere number of lectures has been so of it. small that it cannot have had much perceptible 214. In any foreign universities have you seen or influence in any case. heard of it as existing ? — I think that if you look at a 202. Do you think that it could be made efficient? — list of the lectures in foreign universities, you will see I think that a professor of literature might certainly be that the professors, such as E. Curtius at Berlin, or useful. The subject of the history of literature has Michaelis at Strassburg, have generally one or Hvo been very little treated or studied in Oxford. A good courses of lectures on some period of style, and deal of what Mr. Matthew Arnold did was of that practice (uebungen) in the subject of the lectures, character, and was very valuable. no doubt in a moderate-sized class. 203. The next subject which you have upon your 215. Are they professors of this particular branch, notes is as to the necessity of certain increases pro- or are they professors of history? — I think that one posed for subjects lying partly, or wholly, outside the of them never lectures on anything else ; and many examination system. All that has been proposed others confine themselves to the subject: the other by the Hebdomadal Council upon that subject, in does not strictly confine himself to that subject, connexion with the classical school, is that there 216. But in a German university, they having should be a professorship of classical archaeology, with what we should consider a large number of professors a museum of classical arclueology. Is there any- of history, some of them devote their attention to thing else which you have in view besides that ? — minor and subordinate branches of the general I was thinking also of professorships of different subject ? — The system there is very different. I languages, such as are proposed by Professor Max believe that as a rule a professor is not confined to Muller in his communication in this paper at page 72. anyone subject in a German university; that he is 204. “ If it were wished to establish at Oxford a real pr(»fessor of philosophy, and it is very much his own “ School of Comparative Philology, the following pro- choice what particular branch he will follow; it is “ fessorships would be necessary: a professorship of the partly his own choice and partly arranged wnth his “ Teutonic languages; a professorship of the Celtic colleagues in such away as to cover the ground as far “ languages ; a professorship of the Neo-Latin Ian- as possible. “ guages,” by which he means Romance ? — Yes. 217. A professor of history, for instance, might 205. “ A professorship of the Semitic languages in- take ancient history or a particular branch of ancient Q 6223. B 10 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, OXFORD. D, B. Monro, Esq,, M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. history; as a branch of Jiis general subject he might take classical archaeology as a branch of ancient history ? — You very commonly find the same pro- fessor lecturing in both ancient and modern history, and in both Gi'eek and Latin, and so on. 2] 8. ( Chairman^ There is no collegiate system in either of those universities which you have mentioned ? —No. 219. And in consequence whatever influence the collegiate system exercises upon a university education iiere, is absent there ? — Yes. 220. You have yourself mentioned this subject of classical archeology as lying partly outside the examination system ; it can hardly be said to lie outside the examination system, can it ? Any one who was examined in the Latin and Greek books would be expected to answer questions upon classical archeology, would he not ? — I think not unless he offered it. In the last examination statutes it was specified as one of the subjects which might be offered as a special subject. 221. Yes; but what I mean is, that in reading any Latin or Greek book you constantly come across references to instruments, or works of art, and so on, which require classical archaeology to explain them. Does not Smith's Dictionary of Antiquities, for in- stance, and did not formerly Adams’ Roman An- tiquities, or Potter’s Greek Antiquities, relate to classical archaeology ? — 1 daresay that questions of that kind might be asked, but they would be very easy ones, and I do not think that the examiner would attach very much importance to the way in which they were answered. 222. But it would be rather a mark of ignorance, or of not knowing veiy much, if they were not correctly answered, would it not ? — The knowledge elicited would be something quite ordinary, a matter of common knowledge, and quite distinct from what would form a part of the professor’s course. 223. (d/r. Bernard.) Do you not think that if you had a professor lecturing on such a subject, attended by persons who afterwards became tutors, questions on classical archajology w'ould very soon creep into the examination j)apers ? — Y”es. As soon as any subject comes to be generally studied questions do come in in a sort of unofficial imperceptible way: that is certainly the case. 224-. {Chairman.) I rather infer from the answer which you gave just now, that your conception of clas- sical archmology is of something higher than that class of antiquities to which I was referring, which is the subject of Smith’s Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities. What is that higher conception? — The history of the different arts, the history of architecture especially ; the learning on the subject of painted vases alone occupies a good part of many people’s lives, I believe in Germany. Architecture, sculpture, and painted vases would be the chief subjects connected with the fine arts which would come under the head of classical archgeology. Then there is quite a different subject which I think was intended to be included under that name, that is to say, the study of inscriptions, which is really very different from the study of ancient art. 225. That I suppose belongs to history as far as it is valuable? — But it would be very difficult to make such a subject as inscriptions a part of the ordinary course which you could expect every man to study ; it must be quite the study of a few persons if it is to be of any value, 226. Then I presume that it is not so much lectures as research which you have in view on that point ; or, if lectures, what reasons have you to sujijiose that any considerable number of students would attend lectures of that class? — I think that the audience at first would certainly not be very large : there would be a certain number of men who had taken a degree who would be very willing, 1 think, to go on with a subject of that kind. Some undergraduates would have an interest in the subject, and perhaps men who were in a position to be independent of a degree, and who Avould be able to give time to it ; and I think that it would also be found that if there was an eminent professor of classical archaeology at this university, and a museum, a considerable number of people would be attracted to Oxford for that study, quite indepen- dently of getting a degree. 227. As far as art is concerned, I suppose that the professor cf art covers that ground, does he not ; there is a professor of art ? — Yes, there is a Slade professor. 228. I do not of course speak of the manner in which the lectui’es are given, but of the ground which the professorship would theoretically cover. I pre- sume that it would include architecture, would it not ? — Certainly. 229. And the history of architecture ? — Yes. 230. And the history of ceramic art? Y^es, certainly. 231. {Prof. Smith.) Do you not thiuk that there is very little knowledge on the subject of classical archmology in the university at present? — I should say very little indeed. 232. But if we had a professor whose duty it was to know this subject thoroughly, is it not possible that in the course of a few years a certain amount of knowledge would be diffused first among the teachers, and afterwards among the students of classical literature? — Y'es, if you could get such a man as Mr. Newton of the British Museum to come down and give continuous lectures, and not merely such lectures as the Slade professor is bound to give, namely, twelve lectures a year ; that is not in the least adequate for teaching a subject or keeping up the knowledge of any subject. 233. ( Chairman.) One of the suggestions which we find in this book, and one to which I think importance is attributed amongst others by the Dean of Christ Church, is having professorships of a terminable kind, and not necessarily extending beyond the individuals appointed to them, and also having occasional lectures. Is it possible that such a subject as classical archaeology might be made a subject in that way with advantage rather than at first establishing a permanent pro- fessorship in it ? — Y’’es, I think so, certainly. 234. If you had a very good man, of course it would be a great stimulus to the subject, but if on the other hand you were obliged to fill up the appoint- ment by choosing from those who happen to be candidates for it, you might not do so well ? — YYs, but that is a difficulty which might also be met by adopting the German system of not subdividing the subjects exactly among the different professors. If, e.g., the chair of classical archaeology became vacant and there was no eminent man whom they wished to have, a German university in those circumstances would be able to appoint an eminent man in some other subject. 235. The next subject which you specify as being much taught at other places of higher education is the English language. When you speak of other places of higher education do you mean foreign uni- versities } — Yes, especially foreign universities. 236. Have you paid attention to tlie method in which the English language is taught in foreign universities? — No, not in any special way; I know that it is a subject of lectures, and also that in Germany the history of German is very carefully taught, and taught on a very large scale, but it is also much more taught at school than English is taught in this country. That perhaps is a subject which ought to come into the ordinary course. I have no opinion upon that point, but I think it is probable that a certain amount of the history of English should come into any ordinary course of study, that even in any case it should be represented in the university. 237. Do you think that that duty of lecturing upon the history of the English language might be con- veniently combined with special professorships of any particular languages, for example the Anglo- Saxon ? — Y’cs. I think that the natural way to provide for the teaching of English would be to UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 11 extend the subject of the Anglo-Saxon chair, and perliaps to increase the number of teachers, perhaps to add a reader or another professor on the subject. 238. As to these three professorships whicli are mentioned in Professor Max Miiller’s letter, namely, Teutonic, Celtic, and Neo-Latin, I suppose that a knowledge of all of them would be wanted by a man rtflio should lecture efficiently upon the history of the English language? — Yes, especially a knowledge of the Teutonic languages. 239. Therefore those three subjects, taken with Latin, go very far to make up the knowledge which is necessary for a professor of the English language? — Yes, they would of course all help. A professor of English would require to have a very thorough know- ledge of the Teutonic languages, and would probably know enough of Latin and of Celtic for his purpose ; but it would be necessary to assign to a man the dis- tinct duty of lecturing on English. 240. If you had a distinct and efficient professor of English he would probably attract considerable classes ? — ^Yes. 241. On the other hand, a professor of Teutonic, or a professor of Neo-Latin, or of Anglo-Saxon would probably attract no considerable classes ?— I think that a professor of the Teutonic languages would also have a very fair chance of attracting pupils ; the other two subjects, Celtic and Romance languages, are, so to speak, more out of the way. I think that they are important subjects to be kept up ; there is a certain body of knowledge on those subjects w'hich woidd be required to be preserved and increased as we could. Those Avould be rather professoi-ships of research than professorships of instruction. I mean by professor- ships of research not professors discharged from the duty of teaching, but professors whom you could not expect to attract large classes. 242. Is there not this difficulty with regard to any professors whom you cannot expect to attract large classes, that the tendency is for the classes gradually to die of inanition ; that, being so small, they are not interesting to the professor, and the work becomes as little as possible ; has not that been the experience of past times ? — I do not think that it is found so abroad, in Germany. 243. {Mr. Bernard.) A professor who had a small class might yet discharge the useful office of teaching the teachers, might he not? — Yes. 244. {Chairman.) That is so, but might not the teachers be so much occupied that they would have but little time to attend his lectures ? — A good many teachers used to go to Professor Max Miiller’s lectures. 245. They were not upon any one particular subject, but were upon the whole subject of comparative philology. ITas not a large subject a great advan- tage over a smaller speciality in the number of people whom it will interest and attract ? — Each particular course of lectures must be on some special part of a subject. 246. {Mr. Bernard?) I perhaps did not express myself quite accurately. 1 meant teaching those who would afterwards become teachers. For in- stance, supposing it to be desirable that a man should know something of the Celtic and Romance lan- guages, he may acquire his knowdedge of Celtic from the professor of Celtic, and his knowledge of the Romance languages from the professor of the Ro- mance languages, during his years of pupilage ? — Yes. 247. {Chairman.) If a professorship is intended for research only, what means exist for compelling research ? — I should certainly be against such a pro- fessorship myself. I do not see any means of com- pelling research. 248. {Prof. Smith.) You think that by assigning to the professor the duty of lecturing, or of giving instruction to any person Avho might apply to him, you could ensure that the office would not become a sinecure ? — I think that as a rule it would not become a sinecure ; you could not be sure in every case, but I think that you would have a body of persons in the university carrying on special subjects, and teaching them as far as it is desirable that they should be taught. 249. {Ch/iirmau.) Would it not be sufficient to have readers in these particular languages ? — The difference between a professor and a reader, in that case, would be quite one of detail. 250. If there were readers with a professor on a larger subject, the students might be taught as a sort of subordinate school, might they not, better than if they were all professors ? — The difference between a professor and a reader, unless the reatler is put under the professor, which I do not think would be desirable, is really one partly of title and partly of payment; the reader is simply a professor rvho is not so well paid as the other. 251. I see that in this scheme, although it is not recommended that readers should be put under the professors, yet it is recommended apparently that there should be a Board of Studies for each subject, and that the members of that board should be under the direction of it; do you see any objection to that system ? — Something of that sort would be necessary for the sake of organisation in order to secure that the lectures of the different teachers should not elash, and should cover the ground as far as it is desirable. I think that that would practically be a voluntary arrangement between the different teachers. 252. Some of the other languages mentioned by Professor Max Miiller which you just now referred to, I suppose are connected rvith the present Hebrew and Arabic professorships, are they not. Is the Ilebrerv or the Arabic professor supposed to know Persian ? — I think that the Arabic jirofessor often knorvs Persian, hut that rather arises from the practical circumstances of India than from any natural con- nexion between the languages. 25.3. Professor Max Muller also suggests a profes- sorship of the language and antiquities of Egypt, and another professorship of Chinese, if possible coupled with Tatar ic and Mongolic. I suppose that there wmuld hardly be any students in the last branch ? In Germany there is a professor of Chinese, and I believe that there are lectures in these other languages, Tataric and Mongolic; I do not know whether they are largely attended ; there are a considerable number of lectures in Chinese going on in different parts of Germany at this moment. 2.54. {Prof. Smith.) Have you any opinion as to the importance, for the purposes of general philoloo-y, of a professorship of Persian, including Zend ?— ”lt would be desirable that there should be some one on the staff of professors capable of teaching Zend. 255. {Chairman.) Would it not be very much more desir.able to have a man tviio understood both Persian and some other languages, such as Hindustani and Hindi, than to have a man who taught Persian alone ? — Certainly it vvould be very desirable ; it would be useful to men going to India, wdio usually wish to learn Persian and Hindustani together. The present teacher of Hindustani in the university also teaches Persian. 256. In those cases is not a comparative knowledge of the languages more useful than the separate knowledge ? — The man who taught Zend would be a man who had studied comparative philology gene- rally, and especially Sanskrit. Though Zend is old Persian Ido not know that the two things go together much in practice. 257. We will pass from the subject of language to the next subject rvliich you mention, namely, the theory of education, which you have placed among the subjects taught at other places of higher education, and of Avhich it w'ould be desirable to have more teaching here ? — I have had no practical experience of that subject. I only know that it is considered a necessary professorship in a German university, and that it is a general rvant Avhich has been felt in England B 2 OXFORD. B. B. Monro, Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. 12 UNIVEKSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.. OXFORD. D. B. Monro, Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. 2o8. You mean something corresponding in educa- tion, I svppo e, to the professorship of pastoral theology in divinity ? — Yes. 259. ( Prof. Smith.) Has not a memorial been addressed to the university requesting it to give instruction of this kind ? — Yes, and that question of the courses of lectures on education is before the Hebdomadal Council at this moment. 260. The memorial was numerously signed by the head masters of schools in the countiy, was it not ? — Yes; they evidently felt that there was a want of something of the kind. Not long ago there was a professorship of education created in the university of Edinburgh. 261. {Chairman.) Do you suppose that if there was such a professorship here, and if lectures were given upon that subject, the lectures would be of a popular or of a practical kind ? — Of a practical kind. 262. And would those persons wlio wished to become college tutors be likely to frequent them ? — It would be rather for those persons who meant to be masters in schools. 263. Then a retired schoolmaster who had had experience of that kind would probably be the best person to be such a professor ? — Very probably. 26 f. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you suppose that there is any person in the university who can tell us how that subject is taught in Germany ? — 'I'hat I think was a difficult/ whicli was felt by the Council. 265. It is a new subject ?— Ye.«, it was very much that which suggested tlie thing to me ; wdien the subject was discussed by a committee of the Hebdomadal Council, it appeared that there was no one who was capable of giving information about it. 266. {Chairman.) Does not it occur to you that there might be an evil in a great multiplication of professors beyond what their practical uses would require? — I do not think so. 267- Would it ( ■■'ud upon the whole by dilution to diminish the efficiency of the university system ? — I should not be afraid of that. 268. {Prof. Smith.) You are of opinion that the university could obtain eminent men to fill so large a number of proposed places ? — Very likely not at first ; it is very probable that you would have to fill them up gradually, because the study of many of these subjects is in such a condition, like the subject just mentioned, namely, Piidagogik, that it might be some time before you obtained a sufficient number of persons conqretent to be professors; but I think that if there was any expectation that there were such professorships to be filled up, in the course of time there would be plenty of young men quite ready to study such subjects; they would mainly have to go abroad for the purpose. 269. But you think that, in the words of the State- ment issued by the Hebdomadal Council, there might be some danger in trying the experiment upon a large scale all at once ; that if it were possible to create many of these offices simultaneously, there would perhaps be a danger of their being filled up by persons not fully competent, or at least not of sufficient eminence ? . — I think that that is a perfectly real danger if these different offices are all created at once. 270. { Dr. Bellamy.) And if you were to begin the system you would lalher obtain professorships by appointing particular persons fit to fill them, than establish them first and see where you could get the men ? — Yes, that would he the safest way of beginning. In a case where no eminent man was to be found in England, you might appoint a foreigner like Professor Max Muller. 271. {3Ir. Bernarddj On the other hand, do you not think that a numerous professoriate is likely to be more active, and to he under a keener stimulus, than a pro- fessoriate small in number ? — Certainly. I think that e.xperience would show that, namely, that the most active universities are those which have the largest number of professors. 272. {Chairman.) Is it easy to answer such a question without looking at the other conditions of those universities beyond your own. For instance, in German universities you ought to know something of the relation of professorial teaching to the system of examinations ; how far there is a stimulus arising from competition ; and many other things of that kind. Must we not know all that before we can apply those examples to the university here? — In speaking of those subjects which are only studied by a small number of persons, I imagine that the condi- tions are very much the same. In German univer- sities there are a great many professorships whicli are intended to he practically u?eful in training men for the public service. I do not know about those at all ; they would not help very much ; you could not learn very much from such professorships as those; but in the case of professorships in subjects like Chinese, I imagine that the conditions, if anything, are more favourable in England than in Germany. 273. Is the system of teaching in the German universities intended as an introduction to practical life as distinguished from literary pursuits in the same degree as in England ? — The German universities always supply practical teaching intended for the use of the men who are going into public life ; but that is really distinct from the teaching of the more advanced subjects. Tlie two systems go on together in Ger- many, and I think that they might go on very well together in Oxford. 274. {3Ir. Bernard.) In Germany persons who enter the public service must have attended a uni- versity ? — Yes, and not only so, but they teach agriculture and forest work, and practical botany, and a great many other practical subjects. 275. If a man wants to learn forest management thoroughly he must go to Germany? — Y^es; and they also teach mining, and engineering they teach in a practical manner. 276. {Chairman.) The next item in your paper has reference to the value of a system of readers, in addition to the professors. Just now I think you said (at least I rather understood you to say), that you did not see that much depended upon that dillerence ? — What I meant was that the difl'erence is one which really affects the arrangement of the teaching here as a profes.'ion ; that the reader would be in a lower grade than the professor ; that as a rule a man would be a reader before he became a professor ; it is really a system of promotion. 277. Then in fact the grade of reader would be a sort of intermediate stej) between the learner and the higher gradation of teacher? — Y’es. 278. He would pass from an undergraduate, and instead of being a tutor as he used to be, he would become a reader ? — Yes. 279. {Prof. Smith.) Might not one imagine that a stage of service as a lecturer in a college would very probably be interposed before he would have the prospect of becoming a reader ? — Y’es. I think that the Classical Board of Studies has a paragraph on that point, which you will find in the Report at page 20 : “ The readers would ol'ten, though not alwaj s, “ be distinguished college tutors, and the professors “ would often be elected from the readers. There “ would thus be three grades of authorised teachers. “ (1.) College tutons. (2.) University readers. (3.) “ Professors.” 280. {Chairman^) Would it be practically easy to carry into effect the suggestion “ that readerships “ shall he tenable with college tutorships and lecture- “ ships ; but that the readers shall not be allowed to “ take such an amount of college work as will inter- “ fere with the duties of their readership.’’ Would that work ? — I do not feel very confident about it ; when this subject was before the Council I believe that I voted against that clause ; but I think it is possible that if the authorities were careful as to the amount of college work which they allowed the reader to take, there are considerable advantages in allowing it ; and since then I have been locking at the Report of the Cambridge Syndicate, which pro- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 13 bably is known to the Comnoissioners, where they had to consider tlmt point. They also proposed university readers, and tlieir proposal was that in every case where a college tutor was allowed to keep his tutor- ship, and to become a reader, ihe vice-chancellor should have a statement of the amount of College work whicdi he would he allowed to do ; and the Board of Classical Studies, at Cambridge, I see, even propose that in the payment of the reader the stipend which he received from his college should be taken into the account, and that they should only supple- ment it. 281. It has been suggested here that the reader should have only a nominal stipend, and should be mainly dependent upon tlie payment from the pupils whom he attracteJ ; have you any opinion upon that subject ? — I think that it is desirable that they should receive fees ; that their income should be dependent, in part at least, upon the classes. 282. One hundred pounds a year has been men- tioned here. Is it your idea that a retaining fee or stipend of 100/. a year, or from that to 150/. a year, would be sufficient, with what fees they could obtain ? — It would certainly be sufficient in the case of a college tutor. I should doubt in the case of a man who was not a college tutor whether it was enough. 283. {Dr. Bellamy.) It would of course depend to some extent upon the subject in which he lectured ? — A great deal. 284. {Prof. Smith.) The fees obtainable for lectures in Oxford are low, are they not ? — I think so. 285. That is to say, for any public lectures, or any courses given in connexion with a combined system ? — It is difficult to say what is the natural amount of a fee ; what sum is high or low. 286. What income could a man make who lectured three times a week for each of the three terms in (he year to a class of thirty men ? — I suppose that if he gave them a little help besides in the way of look- ing over papers, and so on, he might receive about two f!uineas from each man per term, and that that would give him about 180 guineas a yeai'. 287. (^Chairman.) d'hat would, 1 suppose, to many young men with nothing better before them, be worth having, would it not ? — Yes, I think it would be an attraction eertainly to a young man beginning his profession. 238. Is there in existence in the university that kind of zeal for knowledge for its own sake which leads many men to enter into those lines with the hope of distinguishing themselves in them, and without much reference to immediate profit ?— I think that a good deal depends upon the hope of future promotion to be obtained by success and eminence in any such work. 289. {Dr. Billamy.) I presume that in your idea, if this scheme of readers is, or is supposed in some respects, to take the place of the college tutors, the readers would expect some of the college tuition fee, or that the college should guarantee him his fee for those pupils ? — Y^es ; I should contemplate that a great many of his pupils would be men who were sent by the colleges t > his lectures, and whose fees were paid by the colleges. 290. In fact it would not be altogether a voluntary system ? — No, it would not be independent of the colleges. 291. {^Chamnan.) With respect to the regulations as to the time to be given to the college work, I pre- sume that they are pretty well fixed when a man is appointed tutor or lecturer in a college ; it is pretty well known how much time he is expected to give to it, is it not ? — I suppose it is very generally, but I think there is occasionally some practical difficulty about that. I am not sure that it always settles itself very easily. 292. Then it would be next to impossible, would it not, for the university to prevent the college getting from its lecturer as much work as it wanted to get out of him ; or is the university to limit the time that he is employed, so that the college would say it must have some other lecturer? — All that would be done would be that the college would make a state- ment, I suppose, as to the amount of work which is required from the lecturer, and the university authorities would have to take their word for ils accuracy. 293. So that there would be a difficulty ah initio in that case to be met before he became a university reader ? — Yes. 294. The next head that you have put down is the amount of work to be expected from university teachers. Would you kindly tell us what has occurred to you upon that subject ? — It would be necessary to impose some minimum. I think upon that subject the statement which was published by the council puts the amount of work rather too low. What they seem to contemplate is courses of lectures of two hours a week. The Terms here are very short, and I do not think that a course of lectures of two hours a week is likely as a rule to be valuable. 295. Is that practically less than the tutors in the combined college lectures would give ? — A tutor to a college some years ago, when I first began to know about these things, used to give from 10 to 15 hours a week of lectures besides what he gave in the even- ing to his pupils. The amount of lecturing work is not so large now I think ; it is different in different colleges, but still it is very much larger than anything that is proposed by tlie university for those readers. 296. Of course if the readers and professors were practically to do the work which is done by the colleges now for the honour students, there must be a proportionate time given to it ? — There must certainly be a great increase in the amount of their work. 297. The next item tliat you have put down is the comparative failure of the “ combined college lectures ” to meet the wants of the university. Y^ou have already said something upon that subject ; have you anything further to add ? — The difficulty which has been felt, I think, arises from the complete independence of the colleges. At the present moment there are two large systems of combinations for the purposes of the classical schools, and I imagine from what I have heard that neither of them is considered very satis- factory by the people wlio are most acquainted with the working of the system. Tlie colleges are quite independent of each other. Each litis its own staff and its lecturers in each of the tlirce or four principal subjects ; and the combination is retil'y a mere gathering into one of the different lectures wliich would be given. There is a great want of system and arrangement about it. 298. Is it compulsory upon all the students to attend, or only upon some ; that is to say, do they all attend by compulsion, or do any attend those combined lectures voluntarily ? — I do not know how it is in all the different colleges, but 1 suppose as a rule the theoi-y is that it is compulsory ; but in practice there is a good deal of the voluntary element. 299. It is a system which has grown up naturally to meet the actual want and demand of the univeisity ; it is a modern system : did it originate in any general scheme, or in the action of one or two colleges in the first instance by themselves ? — I think it first origi- nated in the combination between Balliol and New Col- lege ; and then soon afterwards about five or six tutors of other colleges made an arrangement between them- selves which at first was purely private. The list of lectures used to be marked “ private,” and that grew so as to include a number of other colleges. The two systems are quite different in one respect; in the one case it is an arrangement between the colleges, as be- tween Balliol and New College, and in the other it is an arrangement between the individual lecturers of which the college has no official cognizance. 300. In that case of course there can bo no compul- sion upon any student to attend their lectures ? — Practically I think there is, because each student is supposed to go to the lectures which his tutor advises him to attend. B 3 OXFORD. -O. S. Monro, Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. 14 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. D. B. Monro, Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. 301. But unless the college is cognisant the tutor would not be able to enforce his order, would he ? — No. So far it is semi-voluntary. 302. Has it, or has it not, the effect of selecting from among the college tutors those wlio are most able and efficient, and who have been proved so by experience in particular branches of instruction, and of communicating the benefits of instruction more largely than otherwise they would be extended ? — I do not think that it has that effect ; that is just, I think, where it fails. 303. {Prof. Smith.') Do you mean that the under- graduates themselves do not find out who is the most distinguished and useful lecturer, and that they do not give a preference to his lectures ? — That does take place to some extent, but I do not think that it has any sufficient influence in the preparation of the list of the lectures, at least I do not trace it. 304. {Dr. Bellamy.) You do not think that suffi- cient care is taken by the colleges to assign to the tutor the subject on which he can best lecture ? — As between the tutors of the same college there is not much room for choice. As between the members of different colleges it is a matter which rests entirely with the individual tutors. Even the meeting of the lecturers which takes place does not at all control the lectures which are given by its members. Of course I sjieak only of the combination that I know about. 305. {Chaiimian.) How many colleges combine together in any case, do you know ? — Nine or ten, I think. 306. Supposing that the subject is, say Aristotle or Plato, or any other in which lectures are given, would not the lecturer be likely to be the best which those nine or ten colleges could supply in that subject ? — I do not think that there is any guarantee for that, and I do not think that it is invariably the case. It must be remembered that the college system is by custom, though not by law, a system of appointment of tutors and lectiwers. Men ai’e elected at the age of 22 or 23 to fellowships; as fellows they “ take college work,” as it is called, mainly according to seniority ; and their place in any intercollegiate teaching depends upon their place in their own college. Such a system can hardly secure the appointment of the best men as lecturers, or even enable lecturers to choose the sub- jects which they have studied most themselves. 307. {Mr. Bernard.) Do college lecturers now have very large classes ? — Yes. 308. Is it in consequence of the system of combined lectures that they have large classes ? — Yes, I believe so. That suggests another difficulty about these lectures, that one hears sometimes, that colleges have complained of the lecturers not attending to their own men. From the size of their lectures they are chiefly filled by men from other colleges, and I think it may also be felt by the most successful lecturers that practically they are teaching the univer- sity without remuneration. 309. And without any reward in the way of univer- sity position ? — Without any reward in the way of university position or in prospect. 310. {Chairman.) Why do you saj' in prospect, because one would presume that eminence and dis- tinction would he likely to recommend men to profes- sorships or to promotion in their own colleges ? — If there are professorships created that might be so. 311. You mean that the number of eminent men becomes too great for the professorships which they can obtain ? — The number of professorships is very small at present, that is what I mean. 312. The next head which you have put down is the need of university teaching for the unattached students and for passmen generally ; that is a very important subject, and the Comxnission would be very glad to hear anything that you have to suggest to us about it ? — At present the position of unattached students appears to be very unsatisfactory, because there is no system of teaching which is provided for them. Certain colleges, I believe, allow them to come to their lectures, but the university does not provide a sufficient system of teaching; and as the university matriculates them as its members, I think it is its duty to find the teaching for them. 313. Do they go to the lectures of the existing professors generally ? — I fancy not. 314. Are they not required to do so in any case by the university rules ? — I believe not at all. 315. Do you think that they ought to be? — I do not know that it would ever be possible to compel men to go to a professor’s lectures. 316. Why not, if it is desirable that the professors’ lectures, for example, should supersede the combined college lectures, as far as may be ? — It certainly would be very difficult to devise any scheme of compulsion to attend a professor’s lectures with the present college system in force. 317. With regard to college students one can under- stand that, but why should it be so with regard to unattached students ? — It would be difficult to make a different rule for them. 318. Only they have got no college tutors? — They have delegates who attend to them. 319. We understood from the vice-chancellor that at present there are tutors appointed for them until they pass their moderations, but that after that they are left to themselves ; and from that interval to the time that they take their degrees there seems to be an absence of the instruction which is provided in the colleges to the members of the colleges, and the question which I wish to put is whether there is anything in the nature of professorial teaching which would make it unsuitable to supply that deficiency ? — As a u)atter of fact the professors at present usually lecture witii a view to the men who are reading for honours, and the more advanced stu- dents, and very few unattaclied students are reading for honours. 320. That connects itself with the second branch of that head of your observation, “ and for passmen generally what is the provision for passmen which you think should be made in the way of university teaching ? — The matter would depend a great deal upon practical working, but I think it is desirable that the university should recognise the duty of pro- viding lectures suitable for the passmen, and that it should provide lectures so far as it does not appear that the colleges provide sufficient teaching. 321. {Prof, Smith.) Are there any public lectures now in the university that are suitable for passmen — No, 1 believe not ; at least I do not know of any. 322. At any rate in the main branches of instruc- tion there are not any ? — No. 323. {Chairman.) I presume that in order to be suitable for passmen the lectures must be of much the same character as college lectures, that is to say, catechetical or something of that kind, using the word catechetical not with strict accuracy, but to signify the kind of instruction of an elementary sort which is given to mixed classes who are not ad- vanced, and in whom you cannot presuppose much knowledge ? — To take a particular example, a great many passmen at the present time read and take in political economy. The colleges provide instruction in that, but perhaj)s in each college there are not more than half a dozen men on the average who are working at the subject; therefore the provision is scattered, such as it is, over all the different bodies of men. I think it would be very desirable if the university would provide some teaching in political economy suitable for passmen. 324. Does the professor of political economy go over their heads and teach it in a way which is not sufficiently elementary ? — I believe that his teaching would not suit them. 325. {Dr. Bellamy^ He might complain that the schools did not suit his teaching ? — But I believe he does not contemplate passmen. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 15 32G. (^Chairman.) But the instruction which you would want for passmen, at least those who have no sufficient college teaching, for the whole of the uni- versity course, would be tutorial ? — On the principal subjects. J do not think it would require a great number of teachers. I think it would be very desirable that there should be a place found for teaching the passmen in the professorial university teaching. 327. {Dr. Bellamy^ Do you think that the teaching of the passmen could be as well done by any person as by the college tutors ? — The difficulty really is in the subdivision of subjects. In my own college there arc only four or five men, as a rule, who are studying that particular subject. Practically the teaching is very often not found for them in the college, but by arrangement with some other college. Already a system of combined lectures exists to a small extent in that particular subject, by which several colleges arrange to form a class with their men and to employ a particular lecturer. 328. {Chairman.) Do you think it desirable that passmen should be required to have an elementary knowledge of the arts and sciences, I mean of the prac- tical sciences, such, for instance, as the steam engine and other matters of common knowledge which are very often not taught at all or ill taught in this country ? — It is necessary for the ])assmen, I think, to select a small number of subjects suitable to them, and probably mechanics would be a very good specimen of such a subject. I do not know that I would insist upon each passman taking in mechanics, but it is one of a number of subjects which would be very suitable. 329. {Mr. Bernard.) It is the fact, is it not, that very few of the students take in that as one of the pass subjects ? — It is one of the subjects, but it is only taken in by one man out of 300. 330. {Prof. Smith.) Do you think it would be desirable to require a knowledge of any scientific sub- ject of a very elementary character, such as the rudi- ments of chemistry, from all candidates for a degree in the university? — Yes, I think so. I think it would be desirable to select some subject connected with natural science, either chemistry or mechanics, and to insist upon that. 331. Do you know whether the schools in the country that prepare men for the university would object very strongly to such a proposal, or not ? — I cannot say. I should think they would adapt them- selves to it. 332. {Mr. Bernard.) One of the groups of subjects of examination for passmen is this “ (1) The ele- “ ments of geometry, including geometrical trigono- “ metry ; (2) the elements of mechanics, solid and “ fluid, treated mathematically ; (3) the elements of “ chemistry, with an elementary practical examination ; “ and (4) the elements of physics, not necessarily “ treated mathematically."’ I suppose it is optional altogether which of those subjects the passmen takes ? — Yes, that is quite optional, and a very small number of men take in those subjects. I suppose 10 or 15 men will take in Euclid, which they have learnt at school, and perhaps all the other subjects are represented by one or two or three men. 333. English history, and literature, and modern languages are also optional, are they not ? — Yes ; they also are taken in by a very small minority of men. 334. {Chairman.) Is it jmssible to conceive some minimum attainment in some of those subjects which should be treated as necessary, whether they take it in or not : For example, English history, would there be any great objection to say that a total ignorance of the history of this country should be a bar to a degree ? — No ; I think that might very well be done. 335. Might it not be so also with those practical arts with which any person w ho is at all well educated ought to be in some degree acquainted ? — Yes, and generally I think it would be possible to arrange a better system of pass examination than the one which is contained in the statutes. 336. {Dr. Bellamy.) That has been continually a subject of discussion in the university, has it not ? — Yes. The system which is at present in operation is not a very old one. 337. {Prof. Smith.) One of the great difficulties in dealing with the passmen is, is it not, to give them some interest in the subjects in which they are being instructed ? — Yes, that is of course a very great difficulty. 338. Do you, or do you not, think that a system under which a part of theii instruction was given in large classes by eminent men might perhaps have the effect of awakening such an interest ? — Yes, 1 think that is one of the objects to be kept in view. If the university were to undertake the teaching of passmen they would probably be able to do something of that kind, and to have lectures which would really interest them. 339. {Chairman.) Do you think that the passmen would go to those lectures unless it were compulsory ? — Perhaps not ; but there would be the compulsion of the examination and of the college tutor. 340. {Mr. Bernard.) Practically, as soon as you begin to substitute university for college teaching would not a ditliculty present itself in the way of compelling men to attend that teaching ? — There might be the same compulsion as was noticed with respect to the combined lectures. When I was asked if there was a compulsion I remember saying that there was the compulsion of the tutors, and Lord Selborne pointed out that that wus in contradiction to what I said before, that the system was optional. The fact is that the college tutors have a practical influence which could enforce attendance so far as it is desirable. 341. {Prof. Smith.) Even if there were public lectures intended for passmen there would still remain a great part of the work of their education to be done by college tutors and within the colleges, would there not ? — YYs. 342. So that the public lectures intended for pass- men would not supersede the woi’k of the college tutor, except to a very limited extent ? — No, that is the case both for passmen and for classmen, because if you have one of those readers with a large class he cannot give them much individual attention. It may be desirable that he should give them some attention, and that deficiency must be made up by the colleges, and would be so in such a case. 343. {Dr. Bellamy.) Do you remember the time when it was compulsory to attend a certain number of professors’ lectures? — Y’’es; and it was practically a failure. 344. {Chairman.) The next item upon your paper is this. The prospect of attracting persons to the university who do not desire to go through the course for a degree and the desirability of giving such persons a recognised position. What kind of recognised position do you contemplate ? — That was partly sug- gested to me by an application which was made to the university some time ago, which came before the Council. It came I think from Pai’is, where certain arrangements had been made to enable students to study at foreign universities, and we were asked how they would be received, and what facilities would be given to students sent in that way, and then it struck one that there was no very proper arrangement for receiving students of that kind here, that they would have to become members of the university, and would be expected in any college to go through the ordinary examinations, which of course would not beat all what they would want. 345. Would not it be natural for such persons to be unattached students ? — Y^es, that would suggest itself; that would put them in rather a diff'erent position, I think, from what would be desirable. 346. I presume that unattached students must pass the usual examinations at the usual times ? — I think that the delegates have the power of dispensing in such a case. 347. Would that pow'er of dispensing meet the case of a person who comes, not wishing to pass through B 4 OXFORD. V. B. Monro, Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. 16 UNlVEESITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MIls^tJTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. D. B. Monro, Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. Very Bev. H. G. Liddell. any examinations, but wishing to study, for instance, as the Prince of Wales and his brother did, in the university; if he can be an unattached student, and if the examinations may be dispensed with, what else is there which is needed to give him a locus standi here? — I think as a matter of courtesy to other universities, and with a view of recognising their position, it might be desirable to have an order different from what would be applied to natives. 348. {Prof. Smith.) Would not such an arrange- ment for a special class of students be a matter which lies within the ordinary business of the university P — Yes. 349. {Chairman.) Y'ournext head is the method of encouraging research in classical philology and the science of language ; what have you to suggest upon that?— I think I should wish to adopt a suggestion which is made by the Hebdomadal Council, that there should be a fund created with a board to take charge of it, and to have the power of making grants for particular pieces of work which were wanted to be done. I think it would be found that there is a great deal of work of that kind which might be done on a system if there were any central authority, or board, or institute with sufficient funds at its disposal. 350. That is in fact what is recommended in page 12; — “That in the interests of learning and science “ a fund should be formed and placed under the “ control of a small board; that this board should “ have power to assign professorships for life, or for “ a term of years, to persons who have obtained emi- “ nence, or who are obtaining eminence in i)articular “ branches of study, whether such branches of study “ are or are not recognised in the university ; and “ that the professorships thus specially created should “ as a general rule terminate with the tenure of the “ persons for whom they were created. Out of this “ fund also persons of high literary or scientific “ eminence might be remunerated for occasional “ lectures or courses of lectures. Lastly, out of this “ fund special grants might be made, for longer or “ shorter periods, to promote original research in any “ branch of literature or science.” That seems to be what you refer to.^ — Yes. I think the last is especially important, namely, that there should be a power of making grants for pieces of work, I mean for the purpose of encouraging research as distinct from lecturing, and that that is the only practical mode of doing so which would be found to be efficient. 351. Lastly, you have something to say upon the organisation requisite for securing that the different departments of study shall be sufficiently represented in the lectures of the piofessors and readers without interfering too much with their freedom of action as teachers ? — It is suggested that there should be a meeting of professors and readers under the presi- dency of the vice-chancellor, and that they should draw up courses of lectures. I think it might be necessary to have something more permanent ; that the professors and readers should have a small com- mittee of themselves, perhaps with other persons appointed by the university, who should be the ultimate authority in preparing the lists of lectures, and that certain lectures should be insisted upon as a minimum in order that the subjects should be adequately represented, and then that the teachers should have a good deal of freedom in adding to that minimum. 352. When you say that certain lectures should be insisted upon as a minimum, do you mean from each lecturer, or that there should be certain subjects which must be the subject of a certain number of lectures, and that the professors and readers may arrange among themselves who shall give them ? — I think it would be necessary to make a certain minimum obligatory upon each lecturer, othenvise there w'ould be no compulsion if there was any diffi- culty about the distribution of subjects. 353. {Mr. Bernard.) In classical subjects is there as much recourse to private tuition as formerly ? — I think not. 1 think there was a great deal more private tuition when I first came to the university than now'. 354. Do you think that that is due at all to the extension of professorial and public teaching? — It is partly due to that, certainly, but it is due in the first instance to the greater activity of ihe colleges. I think when I came lo the university it was by no means general for the college tutors to do much or indeed anything in the nature of private teaching, or to give any amount of time to the men individually. That was just coming into use 20 years ago. 355. There is now much greater activity in college teaching, is there not, as well as in the univer- sity teaching ? — There has been, certainly', a greater activity in college teaching. I do not know whether it is quite kept up. 356. {Dr. Bellamy.) As a matter of fact there is very little private tuition comparatively ? — So far as one hears, it is so. 357. ( Chairman.) It is discouraged by the colleges ? — Not at all, I should say. 358. So that it is the spontaneous result of other changes ? — Yes. 359. When you spoke of attention given to private persons, did you mean to each man separately and individually, or to small classes of men of about the same degree of advancement? — I think especially to men separately ; that is the form that it generally takes ; no doubt it also takes the other form. The witness withdrew. The Very Rev. H. G. Liddell, D.D., Dean of Christ Church, examined. 3G0. {Chairman.) With regard to the proposed university readers which are mentioned at page 8 of the Report of the Hebdomadal Council as to “ Uni- versity Requirements,” will you have the goodness to state your views upon that subject? — I would begin by saying that I think that this proposal for creating a class of readers in addition to professors in the university was intended to meet a difficulty, which is a very great difficulty, and which meets us at every turn, that of reconciling university teaching with college teaching. Hitherto, or at least down to recent times, college tutors found a career in succeeding to the livings and benefices which they received after serving the college for a certain number of years; they went into orders and might look to promotion to the highest offices in the Church. That has nearly come to an end, at least to a very great extent. The number of tutors who are now not in orders is great, and there is no career, one may say, open to them in the university' ; consequently many of them leave us as soon as they can ; or if they stay they are apt to become dis- contented. The proposition of creating university readers was made with a view to providing some university offices for those gentlemen who have done their duty well in the colleges, and shown that they could do good service to the university', who therefore might be recognised as university officers and chosen, as opportunity presented itself, to those university readerships. The mode of election is prescribed in a subsequent page. 361. I see it is recommended that the emoluments of a reader should not be less than 400/. a year ; and an opinion has been expressed to the Commission that a reader might receive a sort of a retaining fee of a small amount comparatively, say' 100/. or 150/. a year, and be left to depend for the rest of his income upon the fees which he might receive from the students ; would you say what your view of that might be ? — Such fees would, I presume, be paid only by the university' students and not by those of the college. With reference to this subject, I may as well read a resolution which I proposed at the Hebdomadal UNIVERSITY Of OXUORD commission: — MINUTES OK EVIDENCE. 17 Council to form a part of this document, but wliich was rejected by a majority of one against me, and which ran to tliis effect: “ In the universities of other “ countries tlie salaries of j)rofessors engaged in “ teaching are to a great extent made up by fees, so “ that the interests of such professors become coinci- “ dent with the active discharge of their duties. This “ is a great security for t he activity of such professors, “ and it might be expected that something of the kind “ would have been ^uggested in the present paper. “ But at Oxford it seems difficult to introduce any “ security of this kind so long as the present amounts “ of tuition fees are charged by the several colleges.” You will have before you no doubt documents showing you the amount of tuition fees exacted or demanded in each college. They amount to a considerable sum, and I think the necessity of paying these fees has been a chief cause of the comparative failure of the pro- fessorial system. I think it would be very difficult to do much in the way of fees; something perhaps might be done, but no large fees could be exacted. 362. So you think that as long as the college tutorial system with its fees remains substantially as it is at present, sufficient emoluments for a reader could not be obtained in that way ? — I think that only a small emolument could be obtained in that way. 363. (Dr. Bellamy.) Unless some arrangement could be made with the colleges to give up a part of their fees to the reader ? — Precisely so. 364. (Mr. Bernard.) If the reader becomes a substitute for the tutor to any extent, pro tanto one might suppose that the fees ought to go to him instead of to the tutor ? — It is recommended in the paper referred to that such a readership should be tenable with the college tutorship. He is to remain a tutor of his own college if he likes ; and I suppose persons coming Irom other colleges would be expected to pay a small fee, though I do not think it could amount to very much. 365. (Chairman.) 'fhe view which I understood you to express in the first instance was that the class of readers would on the whole be generally taken from those who had been tutors, as a step beyond the tutorship, and more permanently con- necting them with the university ? — Rather I mean that the office of reader would be added by way of honour and reward to the tutorship. Probably in most cases they would retain their tutorships ; for 400/. a year, if that salary is to be maintained, would hardly meet the case. It might be considered as an addition to certain emoluments received from the colleges. 366. Do you think that there would be any practical difficulty in arranging between the university and the college as to the time that each was to have from the same man ? — I think that comes under the question of considering how the professors and persons teaching on the part of the university ought to meet together and arrange their lectures. 367. At page 19 it is recommended by the Board of Studies for the School ofLiterce Humaniores ihat the readers should not be allowed to take such an amount of college work as would interfere with the duties of their readership. Of course some adjust- ment between the university and the college would be necessary if that were carried out ; do you think that there would be any difficulty in such an adjust- ment ? — I should think not. There ought to be none. 368. (Mr. Bernard.) Are we to understand that you would be in favour of this clause : “ That the “ readers shall receive a stipend of 400/. a year, and “ shall take no fees — No. 369. I rather gathered that youwere of the contrary opinion r — I did not mean to commit myself to that. 1 must content myself with saying that while college fees for tuition remain at their present amount it will be difficult (however desirable it may be) to add much to the stipends of the readers by way of fees. 370. I understand you to mean that you do not think that the amount they would gain by fees would be large, but you would not object to their receiving Q 6223. the fees from those who go to them ? — No ; so long as the whole sum paid does not become excessive. 371. (Prof. Smith.) You think that if the whole scheme of tuition payments within the colleges were revised or re-considered, it might be possible to make a considerable proportion of the payment of the reader depend upon the attendance at his lectures ? — If they were lowered. 372. {Chairman.) What have you to say with regard to the mode of election which is referred to at page 12 ? — I think that that ought to be by a board. I am not wedded particularly to that exact board the constitution of which is tirere laid down, but I think it ought to be a board as far as possible independent of the colleges; it ought to be a university board strictly, which would select the men who had been most successful in teaching and were known to be men who would serve the university as well as they had served their colleges. You are well aw'are that in the colleges the college tutors and lecturers do now- give instruction to men outside their own college to a great extent, sometimes by arrangement between two and three or four colleges, and sometimes the lectures are offered to any person who chooses to come. That is a system which to a certain extent exists now, and you will find in the report of the ohl Commission of 1854 a very lucid recommendation of a system like this contained in Professor Vaughan’s evidence. That is the first time (so far as 1 know) that it was mentioned, and it is very forcibly stated there. You will find it in the evidence at p. 91. 373. Was that the source from which the present system of combined colleges began ? — Not to my know- ledge. It was first broached then. How far it was the germ of what has taken place since I cannot tell. 374. (Mr. Bernard.) When a tutor offers to give lectures to all who may come, how does it work? Does he receive the tutor’s fees from them ? — I believe he receives a fee either from them or from their college, according to a private arrangement. 375. Does a man make his arrangements w'ith his own college that he shall attend the lectures of a par- ticular college tutor who is willing to receive him, and whom he desires to attend? — That has taken place ; but this plan exists only to a very limited extent. 376. (Chairman.) Has the system of combined teach- ing, so far as your observation goes, practically led to the selection out of the men whom the different colleges concerned in it could command of the fittest men among them for teaching in particular subjects ? . — The instruction given in the combined colleges I cannot speak much to, for we are not concerned in it. Several of our lecturers give lectures to all persons who choose to come and pay fees, and that is a system which I myself prefer. 377. (Mr. Bernard.) I suppose the direct tendency of that is to draw the largest attendance to the ablest men ? — I should say it would be so ; it is an informal way of doing wbat is here recommended by the university. 378. (Chairman.) What is the difficulty in the way of it; it is this, that the college requirements are not so easily adapted to it ? — 1 do not think that there is any difficulty in -that way. 379. There would be no difficulty, supposing that a young man wanted to go to a particular lecturer on account of his reputation ; he could go to his tutor and arrange that that should be taken instead of so much college work. Would that be the way in which it could be done? — Yes, in those subjects the college would refer him to the other lecturer. I have sent men myself to tutors in other colleges for that very purpose. In history, and in some departments of physical science, some men come to our lecturers. 380. (Mr. Bernard.) The system of combined college lectures, properly so called, may work incon- veniently, may it not, if a man desires to go to a particular lecturer, and cannot go to bini because his own collea:e is not in combination with the lecturer’s college ? — I have known lecturers m combined colleges take men from colleges w'hich are not combined. There 0 OXFORD. Very Iter. //. Liddell. 23 Oct. 1877. 18 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Very Rev. H. G. Liddell. 23 Oct. 1877. is no prohibition (I believe) ; but tlic tendency must be in the direction that you state. 381. {Chairnuni.) Would a college in combination be likely to refuse leave to one of its members to go to another college ? — I cannot answer that question. 382. (^Mr. Bernard.^ The tendency would be, one would have thought, towards the alternative system that you have mentioned, under which any person may go to a college lecturer who is willing to receive him on his paying the proper fee ? — I do not know about the tendency ; but that is the system which I myself prefer to recommend. 383. (Chairman.) The next point which you have noted is on the relation of those readers and university teachers generally to the college tutors. What have you to say with regard to that ? — I have partly anti- cipated that, unless there is anything which suggests itself to your Lordship. Of course a college would be anxious, I think, that those tutors should be selected by a board constituted samewhat in the manner pro- posed on p. 13 of the “University Requirements” paper, so as to be an honour to the men selected. There would (I should suppose) be no difficidty on the part of the college. 384. You do not contemplate, do you, either the immediate or the prospective absorption of the col- lege work by this class of university officers ? — I think that the higher class of work would probably be absorbed by them. Those who read for the higher honours umuld to a great extent, if not wholly, be taught by them ; but there must always be a great number of men who are not reading for the higher honours, and who would remain, as at present, in the Iiands of the college tutors. 385. It does not occur to you that there might be any university system better than the system at present existing in that respect ? — I do not think there is. I think they are far better in the hands of tutors to whom they have been personally allotted. 386. ( Mr. Bernard.) That is to .say the university by university teaching cannot do much for ])assmen, according to your views? — No, 1 think not. 387. (Chairman.) We understood from the vice- chancellor that the university at present provides tutors to give instruction, analogous to that of college tutors, to unattached students up to the time that they take their moderations, hut not further, and that after passing their moderations they are left to find that instruction for themselves. We also understand from others that they do not go very much to the university professors, and that the university professors’ lectures on the whole are not well adapted to men of that class of persons, few of them being lionounnen. I would ask you whether there is any reason known to you wdiy the university does not provide for their in- struction between the time of moderations and the final degree, and give them tutorial instruction such as they would receive in the colleges ? — The instruction in most of the subjects belonging to the final school must be of a quasi professorial kind, and if this plan is carried out of appointing university readers in the colleges, that would to a great extent meet the difficulty. 388. We have been told that there have been very few honourmen amongst the unattached students, and that they were chiefly passmen ? — They must be can- didates for honours if they present themselves for examination in any of the special schools ; there is no pass examination in those special schools ; they only grant certificates for honours in history, law, and physical science. 389. I was not thinking of special schools but of the final examination generally ? — Comparatively few now go in for a mere pass at the final examina- tion. I am not aware how many, but judging from analogy, from our own men, the number of those wdio go in for the mere pass examination is becoming fewer and fewer. No doubt it would be easy to make pro- vision for those among the unattached students who require instruction for the examination. 390. The next point which you have noted is on the appointment of extraordinar}' professors and pro- fessors for life, as referred to in pages 12 and 13 and page 83 ? — I must say that looking to the whole number of the professors and readers, the professors especially, I cannot help thinking that the proposed list of permanent professors might be considerably reduced, and professors for life or for a term of years or persons chosen for their own merit might be sub- stituted to a very great extent. But I think we must make an exception for the physical science depart- ment. In the physical science department I apprehend that the number of permanent professors must be increased. I think there ate various reasons for that. First of all their lectures must be given to large classes, and cannot (at all events to the same extent as in other subjects) be supplemented by college lecturers. Large lecture rooms and laboratories are necessary ; a large amount of expensive apparatus is required ; and it would be a great waste to multiply collections and apparatus without necessity. Then the subjects, as at ])resent classified, recjuire subdivision. The present professors ai'e greatly overworked, and they cannot give the special minute instruction in each branch of their subjects in the way that it is expected in these days. These subjects are taught and studied with such definiteness and exactness, that a supply of competent teachers will always be ready at hand. So that I apprehend in physical science it will be necessary to add to the permanent professors ; but I cannot help thinking, that the most other sub- jects, by means of the present professors and readers, and by the help of eminent persons chosen to pursue the studies and to teach, we might avoid saddling our- selves with a vast number of permanent professorships, without the certainty of obtaining eminent men to fill them when they become vacant. 391. There seems to be this difference, does there not, between the physical science department and others, that the university alone provides for the Natural Science School, and that the colleges provide more largely for the others ? — The colleges also [)rovide for some departments of natural science, at all events the elementary teaching ; indeed I think you will have a representation from the body to which I belong urging your body not to do anything to prevent the teaching of physical science well and completely in the colleges as well as in the university. It may he expedient that such college lectures should be given, and that college laboratories should be maintained. But referring to my last answer, I hope this may be done in such a way that the college teaching may be in harmony with that of the university, and that there may be no unnecessary multij)lication of collections. 392. (Pro/I Smith.) Christ Church does at present provide pretty completely for all branches of the Natural Science School, does it not ? — Yes ; our Lee’s reader in chemistry has a laboratory within our walls. We have placed our biological collection on loan in the University Museum, and our Lee’s reader has a room there ; but he is quite independent of the pro- fessor. Our reader in physics was at one time and is associated to some extent with the university teaching ; but this was by arrangement with the professor. 393. (Chairman.) With regard to the means at present available, I jiresume you may say that the resources for instruction in classics are very large indeed within the colleges, and so large as to make it, comparatively speaking, improbable, except for the highest class of students, that you would get large classes for additional professors ?- — I think so. 394. And that may be in some degree the case with mathematics, although perhaps in a less degree ? — Probably. But in both these subjects there are eminent men who might very well be made professors, for their own j^ersonal merits. Still their services are not (1 think) imperatively required by students, as in the case of physical science ; and I would rather not see permanent professorships established, except in cases where they are imperatively required, and where one would feel confident that a succession of really able men could certainly be kept up. UNTVERSTTY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 19 39.5. Snjiposing that, idea were generally acted upon, liow would it be worked witli regard to the means of providing emoluments; would it be by creating a general fund out of which such Professor- ships should be paid, as is recommended in page 12, or could it be done by the annexation of fellowships in the colleges, which would seem to be a permaneut thing? — It could be done iu the latter way; but we shoidd bave to apjily to the colleges in each particular case to know whether they had fellowships vacant that we could ap|)ly. What recommends itself to me as the most feasible mode of doing it is a jirofessorial fund. 396. That of course might require a good deal of time to accumulate, might it not? — •! am afraid that the funds available from the colleges will on any plan require a considerable time to accumulate. 397. {Dr. BcMcumj.) Still you conceive that the proceeds of fellowships might be paid into a fund as well as given to particular professors ? — The fellow- ships might be suspended and the proceeds paid into the fund. 398. {Chairman.) I should like to ask a question with regard to the exact principle upon which some of those recommendations are made ; I observe that tliere is a recommendation at page 8, under the de- partment of modern history, of an additional professor- ship of Indian history. Does it appear to you that that is a proper subject for a professorship? — That I think was recommended with a view to the selected Indian candidates coming here for their education before they go to India, and Indian history is one of the subjects which they are required to be taught. 399. Of course that would be a good reason for lectures in Indian history ; but is it expedient to separate, as the subject of a distinct professorship, Indian from modern or from English history, if you please: and there seems to be no end to the principle of such a subdivision ? — I do not think that I should be inclined to ])ress the appointment of a j)rofessorship of Indian history. 400. {Prof. Smith.) You do not see any reason why there should not be a readership of Indian history instead of a pro/essorshi|) ? — No, I see none. 401. {Mr. Bernard.) Oriental history is rather an extensive subject, is it not? — Yes, oriental history is certainly; but 1 was asked with regard to Indian history. I should like to add that 1 would g'adly sec any person really distinguished for his knowledge ot Indian history made a professor for life., 402. ( Chairman.) A similar observation occurs, and I should like to know whether you would answer it in the same way, with regard to some of the ])hilological professorshi])s which have been recommended by a very great authority, Mr. Max IMiiller, at pages 72 and* 73, where he says ; — “ If it were wished to esta- “ blish at Oxford a real school of comparative philo- “ following professorships would be neccs- “ sary : — 1. A professorship of the Teutonic lan- “ guages; 2. A professorshi]) of the Celtic languages; “ 3. A professorship of the Neo-Latin languages; “ 4. A professorship of the Semitic languages, inde- “ pendent of the professorship of Hebrew and Old “ Testament Exegesis; 5. A professorship of Persian, “ including Zend ; 6. A professorship of the language “ and antiquities of Egypt ; 7. A professorship of “ Chinese.” I believe there are some of those already existing, but the question has occurred whether, if the object is instruction, and not merely research, there might not be with some advantage a grouping of those subjects ratber than extreme subdivision of them ? — I think that Professor Max Muller suggests this as an alternative : “ if,’’ he says, “ on the contrary it “ were wished to establish at Oxford a real school of “ comparative philology, the following professorships “ would be necessary,” that is, necessary? to make it quite complete and exhaustive ; that is what he suggests, but I do not really think that he seriously thought of having all those ))rofessorships ; indeed I think that those are eminently subjects which might form professorships during life for eminent scholars. Such, for instance, is the last subject, Chinese, which Corpus Christi College with the assistance of the university created into a professorship ; but they did not create a permanent ])rofessorship ; they merely appointed Dr. Legge, the most eminent Chinese scholar in Europe, professor of Chinese for his life, without at all pledging themselves to continue the professorshij) after his avoidance. I think that, if we could find men very eminent iu any one of these de[)artments,-I should he very glad to see them brought here on the same principle. 403. And perhaps it might be said that you would give him the name of ])rofessor honoris causa rather than that of reader ? — Certainly. And I may add that I think with a po'rson of such distinction that is the best way of promoting research. Where a man has shown himself capable and willing to study and work at any particular subject, then I would endow him as a professor of research ; let him teach if he has the faculty, but do not bind him to it. For instance, lake Professor Max Miiller himself ; he has gone through a long course of teaching; I should like to see him appointed emeritus professor with a larger salary than the university gives him at present, with the under- standing that he should be allowed to pursue his own studies, it being quite certain that he will do so. 404. That is a suggestion connected with the im- portant object of providing for professors who have passed their work ? — Yes, I think that a j)rofessorial fund ought to be formed of such magnitude as to pro- vide for such contingencies. 405. It would not I suppose be a good thing as a general rule to retain a man as a [wofessor after he has ceased to be able to discharge the duties, unless it were a department in which he was still capable of research, and in which research was important? — I think not, unless such a case were fo arise as I have just mentioned ; in such a case he might still be con- tinued with the title of professor emeritus, and I think it would be a proper compliment to him, as well as an honour to the university, to place him in such a position. But in many cases a man is really disabled from loing anything, and then you might provide him witn ii pension. Under the present statutes, in the case of every professor who is disabled by age or illness of any sort, there is a ])rovision made for appointing a substitute, reserving a part of tbe salary to him, but then he retains the title of j)rofessor. I think it would be a better plan that he should cease to be professor and sbould bave a pension, and a successor be appointed. 406. The next point which you have noted is the necessity? of appointing additional permanent j)ro- fessors in some departments of knowledge, such as “ chemistry, physics, and biology,’’ rather than in others. I tliink you have touched upon that already ? — Yes, 1 think I had better leave the Commission fo? information upon that subject to those who are better fitted to give information, but I feel that there is a great difference between these subjects and those other subjects which your Lordshiji has mentioned, those, 1 mean, which are taught largely in tbe colleges by very competent j)ersons, and which do not require the same amount of apparatus and buildings which the physical sciences do require. 407. {Prof. Smith.) Do you consider that suffi- cient rewards and encouragements to eminent teachers would be provided by the power of appointing professors for life, so that a man who devoted him- self to the teaching and study of classics in the uni- versity should not feel that he was at any disadvan- tage compared with a man, for instance, who devoted himself to the study of natural science ? — I think not. I think you would provide what was necessary in each case. And then all beyond that necessity you provide for by tiiose extraordinary? means. How? far this could be carried would be dependent upon the amount of the fund j)rovided, and on the fitness of the board to exercise a discretionary ]>ower over that fund. C 2 OXFORD. Very Htv. H. G. Liddell. 2.3 Oct. 1877. 20 UXIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Very Rev. H. G. Lidddl. 23 Oft. 1877. 408. {Chairman.'] I suppose that your reliance would be upon the character of the board having the power of appointment against the risk of persons with qualifications not pre-eminent being appointed to those professorships, as a reward for college services or from personal good will ? — Certainly. Of course the question of patronage is one of the greatest difficulties. 409. If }mu had an unlimited power of making men of merit professors, is there not a serious risk that any board that you could constitute might, if they had the money, do it too easily ? — I think your Lordship’s parenthesis must be our safeguard, that the amount of money would not be unlimited. There would he a risk no doubt. I think that the amount of money would of itself limit the number, or perhaps the number might he fixed from time to time. Then great care must be taken in constituting the board of electors. The council on the whole, after a long dis- cussion, thought it best to have a small board of only five, namely, the vice-chancellor with two elected by the council and two elected by the congregation of the university ; hut I know that there is a difference of opinion upon that subject. 410. {Prof. Smith.) Do you think that tlie hoard should be so entirely a university board as is proposed in that suggestion ? — The difficulty, Avith great people out of the university, is to get them to take a sufficient intei’cst in the matter and give sufficient attention to the qualifications of persons to be elected. 411. {Mr. Bernard.) The powers that Avould have to be exercised with regard to this fund are something very much larger than we have had experience of at present ; there is the power to say whether professor- ships should be continued or dropped, and Avhether a particular person distinguished in a particular subject should he appointed to a professorsfiip Avhich had never been filled before, and the like; should you propose to give those powers to the board, or would you give them to a body which has hitherto exercised powers of the same kind, namely, the convocation or the congregation ?— My proposition, so far as I had a share in framing it, was to leave all to the board. I thought a small responsible body like a board Avould be more likely to exercise those powers under the control of public opinion than a large floating body like convocation or even congregation. 412. Those are powers the exeicise of Avhich would be very much canvassed in the university, because they would affect so many interests ? — The position of the members of that board Avould be a very invi- dious ])osition, 1 am aware, as is the case Avith all possible modes of patronage. 413. Do you think that the university would be disposed to confide those great powers to a board ? — The subject was a great deal discussed and at different times in the council; and at tAvo different intervals of time the proposed plan was adopted by a majority. I hope the same reasons which determined the opinion of the council will also weigh with the university. 414. {Chairman.) I suppose if you had a large body it Avould become the subject of canvass much more than if it were a small one ? — I should have thought so. 415. It is ofien found, is it not, that the responsi- bility is in inverse ratio to the number ? — Yes. The largest board that I have heard proposed is ten, or say nine, because the vice-chancellor would form one, and there Avould be an equal number elected by the two bodies. One reason that is given for a larger number is that the particular subjects to be dealt Avith ought to be represented on the hoard. I confess that I do not feel that myself. I think that clear-headed, honest, sensible men can get o|)inions about the qualifications of persons to be professors of chemistry, or philology, or any other subject, by inquiry quite as well as if there were persons professing those subjects on the board, and indeed I think in some respects better, because in the former case there Avould be no jealousy. For instance, supposing a biological professor was to be elected, and the representative of physical science on the board were a chemist) he Avould (I apprehend) be no better judge of the merits of candidates than any other person; so that you must have a representative of every particular subject, and in that case such a person would claim an authority which the other electors would find it difficult to dispute. I rather think that experts, as they are called, Avould be better absent from the board. 416. {Dir. Bernard.) Would not there still be a certain jealousy as between what Ave may call the faculties ; because whoever is put upon the board would as a matter of fact belong chiefly, if not ex- clusively, to some one faculty ; interested, or supposed to have a special interest, in one subject of study more than another? — I suppose that the object of the election Avould he to avoid that as much as possible, at least my object would be so in giving my A'ote. I think the possibility of such jealousy is an argument in favour of a small number on the board. 417. But probably each man would be a person of eminence in some study ? — Yes, but still he may have given evidence of his integrity and faiimess of mind which may raise him above suspicion. 418. {Chairman.) Are there not some professor- shi|)s at present to which the election is made by boards or aggregates of persons ? — Yes. 419. Without going into particulars, is it found that those elections are generally Avell and satisfactorily made ? — In most cases I should say that they have been well and satisfactorily made. 420. Is it the general opinion of the university that it would be expedient to extend the system of Crown nomination ? — 1 think that the system of Crown nomination has been very good, but I think that there Avould be a jealousy of it in the university; however, I speak Avithout much confidence in my opinion. 421. Those existing boards of Avhich I have spoken are not constituted exactly upon the principles recom- mended by this paj)er, but are rather arbitrarily con- stituted, are they not — There are two boards men- tioned in the paj)er, one for the appointment of professors and readers generally, and one for the appointment of e.xtraordinary professorships, both on page 12: “The council recommend that boards should “ be constituted for the appointment of the professors “ and readers. Each of these electing boards might “ comprise (1) the vice-chancellor;- (2 and 3) two “ members of Convocation chosen for a term of years, “ one by congregation and one by the Hebdomadal “ Council, and serving on all boards connected with “ some one department of study ; (4) a professor “ deputed on the occasion of each election by the “ professors and readers in the department; (5) a “ person occupying an eminent official position in “ connexion with literature or science outside the “ university.” This was for the appointment of readers and permanent professors ; then for the extraordinary professorships they voted for the other board that we have been speaking about. You will see that the first board could not be used in the second case because it varies Avith the nature of the appointment to be made ; Avhereas in the case of the extraordinary professorships the nature of the appointment has to be determined by the board itself. In the first case tlie subjects to be taught by the pro- fessor to be elected Avould be knoAvn by the fact of the vacancy, and in that case it is possible to consti- tute the board as proposed, Avhereas in the other case it is not possible. 422. These are all the points in the minute Avhich you Avere so good as to send us, but I see at the end of your observations, in the memorandum at page 83, a reference to another subject connected Avith these things, as to occasional lectures Avhich might be given by persons of high literary or scientific eminence from time to time upon subjects which they had made their OAvn, and then something Avhich is quite distinct about promoting research by grants. But Avith regard to the method of occasional lectureships, I suppose there has been nothing whatever to prevent that experi- ment being already tried in the university ? — There is no fund for the purpose, and you Avould have to get a special vote of Convocation for anything of the kind. UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 21 There is no means of providing such lectures except in one department, the Taylor Institution of Modern Languages. The curators of that institution have engaged gentlemen of note to give occasional lectures, and several gentlemen have attended. 42H. With satisfactory results? — lam afraid that the English ignorance of foreign languages has rather prevented a very large attendance ; they have been chiefly ladies, 1 think. M. Taine lectured, and «;er- tainly the majority of the attendance were ladies. 424. Does it occur to you that this plan might pos- sibly be adopted upon a large scale ; that, without committing yourself at once to appointing a man to a professorsliip for life, you might hire him to give lectures, and then if you found that it answered, he might go on from term to term or from year to year ? — I think that that plan would answer very well. Of course many persons prefer living in London, and would be glad to come down to Oxford and deliver courses of lectures. Professor Acland has on several occasions engaged gentlemen from London to give lectures on specific subjects in anatomy and physio- logy, but some difficulty (I believe) arose, and I think he has not continued it. 425. 1 presume that there is very little value in single occasional lectures of that sort as they would be nearly certain to be popular; but courses would be a different thing ? — Mr. Newton, of the British Museum, has given lectures here. After returning from Halicarnassus he gave (I think) two lectures on his discoveries there, which were very largely attended and created great interest. A single lecture of that kind is of value, I think. 426. (;1/r. Bernard^) Do you think it possible to apply the system of pensions to readers as well as to pro- fessors ? — To do so you must have a very large -[rension list. The most eminent of those readers would in the course of time succeed to professorships, I should hope. 427. Do you contemplate the reader being appointed for a term of years ? — It is recommended in the paper that the reader should hold his office for seven years, but be re-eligible. 428. That would be an advancement so long as it lasted, but it would be a kind of advancement which came to an end unless a man was fortunate enough to become one of the limited number of professors ? — C^iiite so. 429. {Prof. Smith.) You have indicated that you differ from this paper on university requirements in some points. I should like to ask you, with reference to one special point, whether you approve of the suggestion on page 8, that theie should be a profes- sorship of classical archaeology and a museum of classical archaeology, the two parts of the suggestion standing of course on slightly different grounds ? — I think that a museum of classical archaeology must consist chiefly of cast, or photographs, because you cannot get the best tilings ; for those you must go to the great museums in London, Paris, Berlin, amd so on ; but you might have a well-selected system of typical casts and photographs which would be of the greatest possible use for instruction in the poets and historians of antiquity. With regard to the professor- ship, I think a reader of classical arrchmology would be sufficient generally ; but 1 would appoint a professor whenever I could get a really eminent man. I have a man in my mind now that I should like to see a professor. 4.30. Y'ou think that the professorship should be dealt with as a life professorship.' — Yes, I think so. 431. But you also think it would be in the interest of the study of classical antiquity that we should have a museum of classical archaeology? — Yes ; I think it would give a real life to the study of the great classical author's of antiquity, if the lecturer were able to illustrate his author by refei'ence to coins atrd works of art, in illustration of his lectures. 432. I suppose that in all subjects which are not of very common attainment, you cannot calculate with absolute certainty as a permenant thing upon getting fit men ? — That is exactly the point which I wished to bring before the Commission. 433. Is there not also a special reason for having a museum of classical archmology, a reason of a some- what selfish kind, tliat the university would be likely to receive very valuable donations if it once under- took to place such collections in circumstances in which they would be useful ; donations, for instance, of ancient vases, and coins, and gems, and other such antiriuities ? — Yes; there might also be exchanges of duplicates between different museums. The British Museum have many duplicates which perhaps they might place here on loan, and so on. 'I'he witness withdrew. Robert Bellamy Clifton, Esq., M.A., (Professor of Experimental Philosophy), examined. 434. {Chairman.) The first item which you have been good enough to put down on which you wish to ba examined is as to the objects which a scientific department of the university endeavours to attain ; will you kindly state to the Commission what youhave to say upon that subject? — I wish to make a statement on these points by way of exjilaining the requirements which I shall afterwards venture to suggest. It seems to me that there are three objects which ought to be secured, and in the scientific departments they are, I believe, constantly kept in view. The first is, to pro- vide a general course of instruction in each subject, treating It as a part of a liberal education. The second object is to provide more detailed instruction for those persons who are intending to use their knowledge in some form or other as the basis of a profession, and mainly for those who propose to teach the subject sub- sequently. The third point is to provide means by which the professor or his assistants, or the advanced students under his control or direction, may prosecute original research with a view to extending the know- ledge of the subject itself. 43.5. The next point relates to the difficulties ex- pel ienced in attaining these objects in the department of experimental philosophy or phy.assed tlie university examinations, they are taken away to schoolwork, that is to say, they are bought off from continuing their studies by the larger schools. 440. {Prof. Smith.') That is if they have served for a year or a eouple of years in your laboratory? — Yes, if they can say that they have had a year’s training in the laboratory, very frequently the certificate of having passed the university examination in physics is not required. At the present moment I have lost two of my best students, neither of them having been through the schools, both of them being taken away to fill appointments as teachers. It follows that the men who are most fitted to help in research, and who certainly would be at all events able to undertake some work of that kind under the supervision of the professor, are taken away before they can be of any use. I may say that during the last session, for the first time since I have been in Oxford, having two v(;ry effieient demonstrators, I endeavoured to under- take a very small amount of original work. This I was able, as it happened, to utilise for the lectures, and so it helped towards the ordinary work of the* term, but I am sure that it has seriously interfered w'itli my attention to the laboratory students, and 1 sbould hardly venture to undertake such work again. .\t the present time I should say that the demand for trained teachers is greatly in excess of the supply. It has frequently happened lately that I have been con- sidted about appointments for teachers which have been vacant, and I have been quite unable to find any pupil of mine who was not already engaged. During the present term I am unable to find a pupil dis- engaged, who is qualified to take the office of second demonstrator in our laboratory, and the funds at my tiisposal are not sufiicient to enable me to induce a man to leave school work. 441. {Mr. Bernard.) Do those teachers go much to the north ? — They go all over the country. 442. {Dr. BeUamy.) There are but few schools where teachers are trained ? — There are but few ; in fact there are scarcely any where teachers are trained on our plan. 443. {Mr. Bernard.) Y^ou are therefore teaching indirectly through your pupils throughout the country ? — To a certain e.xtent this may be the case. I find that we have scholars coming pp partially trained upon our plan, and of course that enables us to go further. They come from schools where my own pupils are masters. 444. That may be regarded as an instance in which a professor’s utility cannot be measured by the number of persons forming lus class ? — It may possibly be so regarded. 445. {Chairman.) Would the subdivision of which you have been speaking as desirable overcome the difficulty you have in finding time for research ? — Y"es, I think it would to a certain extent, if the number of students did not greatly increase. I should mention that I have been at times, not very often but at times, compelled to refuse students admission to the labora- tory, simply for the reason that I have neither the apparatus to put before them, nor the time to direct their studies. I have heard of suggestions for founding college laboratories, and that to some extent they might be able to assist ; I believe that a college laboratory would be absolutely of no use whatever in relieving us of the labour of teaching and in affording • us opportunities for undertaking research. 446. {Prof. Smith.) You are speaking, I presume, exclusively of college laboratories devoted to physics ? Yes, all that 1 say has reference only to physics ; a chemical laboratory is a different thing from a physical laboratory, but I do not feel qualified to express any opinion respecting the former. These laboratories in the colleges would be necessarily small ; it cannot be expected that a number of colleges would separately form costly cabinets, such as they would require for the use of advanced students, for in each college there would be only one or two such advanced men and the apparatus would stand idle ; the teachers probably might have time for research, but it is very doubtful whether they would be able to command the necessary apparatus. I should say that college laboratories to be of any real value would entail a vast amount of practically wasteful expenditure, and if tliey were not properly constituted and equipped I believe they would simply prove to be failures, and waste whatever money was spent upon them. 447. {Chairman.) Would you now go to your next point, as to how these difficulties have been contended with ? — I am afraid they have been contended with in a way which does not show any originality, that is bj'^ simply leaving out of the laboratory course some of the branches of (diysics. I have found it quite impos- sible to deal with the whole subject. It seemed to me that I had to choose between teaching the whole subject very badly and teaching a portion of it fairly well, and I chose the latter ; the laboratory work has been almost entirely confined to three branches, the methods of weighing and measurement, which is a part of mechanics, the study of heat, and the study of optics. 448. Leaving out acoustics and electricity ? — Yes, leaving out acoustics and electricity and magnetism ; and even the study of heat has not been carried out to anytbing like the extent to which it is desirable that it should be. The course of optics is more fully carried out. In my public lectures of course all the branches of physics have been treated upon in suc- cession more or less, and it is here that the very great extent of the subject causes an enormous strain. After a teacher has been giving his attention for some years to certain subjects, if he is called upon to give a course of lectures on another subject, even although he has lectured on the subject before, it is practically necessary for him to read up the subject almost anew, for tbe subject has been advancing, and the way in which it is regarded in its connexion with other subjects has very much altered since he pre- viously studied it. To show what has happened I may mention that excepting a recapitulatory lecture now and then at the commencement of a course, and one short course on elementary mechanics, I have never repeated a lecture in 12 years. In dealing with a subject which 1 have not had specially under my consideration for 12 years and which has made 12 years’ progress, is practically a new subject to me if it is to be put before the students from a proper point of view, as it exists at present, and a second course of lectures (;osts almost as much time and trouble in the preparation as the first. 4'here is another kind of treatment which is possible, and that is to give a general course of lectures on physic.s, covering the whole subject in say one or even two years. This course would constantly be repeated, and with a good lecturer’s assistant there might be some relief gained by adopting this plan. I have felt that I should be driven to this from sheer want of time, l)ut I must say that such a course of lectures is in my opinion of very little educational value. I know several places where such lectures are given, and I know the results that are attained, and I consider they are anything but satisfactory. 449. Woidd you describe what is a general course of lectures as distinct from the kind of lectures which you actually give ? — The general course to which I refer consists of a moderate number of lectures, spread over a period of one or at most tw-o years, in which all the branches of physics are considered more or less, but attention is only given to the .salient features of each branch. C 4 OXFORD. R. B. Clifton, Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. 24 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, OXFORD. It. B. Clifton, Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. 450. So as not to be obliged to fill up the minuter points ? — Precisely so. 451. And it is perhaps on the minuter points, or what might be considered so, that the progress chiefly depends ? — Ye.s, this is often the case, and, at the present time especially, the progress of physics seems to me to depend c.n the progress of methods of exact measurement. 452. {Prof. Smith.) In the general lectures you would practically have to omit the demonstrations of the physical truths you were dealing with, but in the minute course you could give them ?— Yes. So far as my experience goes these general courses make very little more impression on a student than a series of exhihitions of conjuring. There is not time for a really logical treatment of the subject; a succession of experiments is placed before the students, of which they have not time to follow the connexion, and I believe very little more educational effect is produced than by an exhibition of conjuring. In a more detailed course on some branch, such as I have generally given, taking a small part even of a minor branch for a course of lectures, I have time to enter into the history of the growth of the knowledge of that branch, and to develop the inductive and deduc- tive logic which is involved in the processes which have led to its present state; I believe that this kind of lecture is felt to be of much more value educa- tionally, and certainly I find, so far as the students are concerned, it is very much more Interesting ; they understand what is ]uit before them, and a man Is very rarely interested in a thing which he does not thoroughly' understand. But of course these more detailed lectures involve very much more time in the preparation of the experiments which must be shown, and which are often of a very much more difficult nature that those required in a general course. 453. {Chairman.) Your next point is as to the demand on the time of the professor in accomplishing what is done ; would you kindly tell us what you have to say upon that subject ? — There are one or two points which I should like to mention in order to give an idea of the time required. Lately I have been compelled to leave one of the departments of the laboratory, even with the restricted course which I have mentioned, practically in the hands of the demonstrators; this is the department in which the methods of weighing and measuring and the pheno- mena of heat are studied. I have merely gone into the laboratories perhaps two or three times in the course of the day for a few minutes ; the demonstra- tors have practically undertaken the whole of the teaching. In the other department, that of optics, I have taken an activeshare in the teaching, and devoted in fact the greater part of three days a week to it. I also give two public experimental lectures per week. Now I find that on the average each lecture requires at least 20 hours for preparation, indepen- dently of what is done in A acations towards providing the apparatus which is required. 454. {Prof. Smith.) Do you mean 20 hours ot your own time? — Yes, 20 hours of my own time, because the preparation of these detailed experiments, experiments perhaps of a historical character, cannot be left to a lecturer’s assistant. The change is often so rapid in the nature of the apparatus required, and the complications are so great, that it w'ould take as much time to tell the lecturer’s assistant what to do as to do it. Of course the 20 hours include the time spent in making diagrams, and generally getting the apjjaratus into working order, besides that devoted to looking up the subject; but certainly no allowance is made for the preparation required for getting appa- ratus constructed ; this part of the work is generally done in the vacations. I should say that at least 40 hours a week on the average are taken up by the lectures. Then I have three days a Aveek devoted to laboratory instruction, and if we include the actual time spent in teaching and supervising, which super- vising means going round the laboratories constantly and asking and answering questions of a number of students, as well as that spent in getting the appa- ratus ready for them to work with, ami afterwards seeing that the apparatus is in working order for the next students, it will be found that at least eight hours a day are required, so that the three days would absorb 24 hours in the week. Then besides this there is always a certain amount of correspondence which falls upon me, I mean correspondence connected Avith the professorship, as Avell as the general arrange- ment and management of the laboratory, and general university work, attending Convocation, and so on ; for these duties the time reiiuired cannot be put down certainly at less than two hours a day, and that for six days would be tAvelve hours; the result is that altogether 76 hours a .veek are actually emjiloyed, and I am (juite sure that this is the minimum during the terms. This Avill be over 13 hours a day employed on the average, but I should say that the actual time is more nearly 15 hours a day, and very often Avhen I am pressed by special circumstances it mounts up to 17 hours a day. It is obvious that even if only 13 hours a day are thus emplnycd, practically very little time is left for private study, and none for original work. Moreover, the greater part of the vacations is entirely devoted to the imiversily work. I am ohliged to put off u.n til the vacations all the principal details of the management of the lahoratories, all the accounts, and the inspection of the a])paratus. After a se.ssion’s work many of the instruments have to he taken to pieces in order to be cleaned, and, if they are injured, to be repaired ; they have then to be j)ut together again and readjusted; this takes a long time, and it is a Avork which I cannot avcII delegate to another person. There is also the maintenance of the physical cabinet; additions must be made to it in order to keep pace with the progress of the subject, and the new instruments must be tested Avhen they arrive, so that very nearly the whole of the vacations is taken u]). I may say that in the arrangements for providing new apparatus, in making the necessary drawings to put into the hands of the instrument makers, a con^i- derable amount of time must be absorbed. I have not any drawings with me, but if, as I hope, the Com- missioners will be able to pay a visit to the laboratory they will see some, and they will probably obtain a better idea of the Avork which the maintenance of the department involves than I can convey by words. So far as the demand on my time is concerned i may say that for the last two years I have had the greatest difficulty in keeping a fortnight In the year free from univer.'^ity work. 455. {Chairman.) Even with the very long A-aca- tions } — Yes, CA'en Avith the very long vacations. Nearly the whole of the vacations is really taken up in the way 1 have described. A good deal of this work is not of a A cry high kind, but it must be done, and it takes time although some of it docs not require much exercise of the brain. 456. What haA-e you to say upon your next point, namely, Avhat is nec.essary to place physics on a satis- factory footing ? — There are two methods of dealing with the subject, and I have referred to them in my reply to the Dean of Christ Church at page 48 of the paper which is in your hands. With respect to these, one is to appoint a professor-in-chief who would have the control of the whole department and all the subjects involved, and to provide him with a large number of demonstrators to do the greater part of the teaching under his direction ; that is one plan. 457. Would the chair of experimental philosophy as the term is used in that paper be limited so as to ex'clude chemistry ? — Yes, certainly ; experimental philosophy now means, and has done so ever since I have known Oxford, physics. Chemistry has been provided for separately. The second method, and that Avhich I recommend, is to create new professorships, the different professors devoting their attention mainly to separate branches of physics, and to give each professor the assistance of one or tAVO demonstrators. I think I have put forward the reasons for preferring this second method UNIVKK.SITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION -MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ^ A and I do not know that 1 need mention them again. 'J'he first method I believe to be very inferior indeed as compared with the second. If a professor-in-chief is to be appointed it would be extremely difficult to find a thoroughly qualified man at a moment’s notice ; there is but a very small number of men living at one time, who would be really fit for the office of professor- in -chief, that is to say, having a sufficient knowledge of all branches to enable them to properly direct the instruction and research in all. The demon- strators, of course, would be nearly always young men who were willing to take inferior offices for the sake of gaining experience, and they would require a great deal of time to be spent in instructing them in their work and in seeing that the work was properly done, so that really a professor-in-chief would have his whole time taken up in the mere supervision of the teachers, and he would be in exactly the same diffi- culties as we are now, — ^unable to find any time whatever for original work. 1 have no doubt it would happen as a general rule that the professor- in-chief would have a special liking for some one branch, or for one or two branches ; he would thoroughly know what should be taught in these, but not enough of what ought to be done in the others ; the result would be that some branches would be thoroughly well taught and others would probably be dealt with in a very inferior way. If the other plan were adopted, if new professorships were created, to which I presume good stipends would be attached, it would be possible to induce men who had already gained experience in teaching and a thorough know- ledge of some of the different branches of physics to take such offices, and they would not only supervise but actually take part in the teaching. Each branch in fact would then be placed under the control of a man who was thoroughly interested in it and in its progress, and who would have time to devote to teaching it and to its develojrment. In this way it is probable that the whole department would attain a very high and uniform degree of efficiency. Another advantage of this plan is that by allowing a professor to practically concentrate his attention upon a part of the subject he woidd be able to know it in a much more thorough way than is possible at present ; the labour of teaching would be at the same time diminished, because he would have the subject always before his mind, and the very great strain which is caused by having to pass from one subject to another, and then to a third, and so on, would be removed. This is in fact the great strain which is felt at present, and it would at all events be very much diminished, first by the reduction of the subject matter which the professor would have to teach, and secondly by the fact of his having that subject matter always before him, so that the details would he more easily kept up. He would also probably have some time for original work. There is also another advantage about this plan, viz., that it opens careers to a number of men. If there is only one professor-in-chief there is but one career in the university open, at all events only one of the highest kind ; whereas the second plan would open a number of careers and would probably make it worth the wdiile of several really able men to devote themselves to the study of physics as a profession. If tliis second j)ian w'ere adopted, in order to deal with physics satisfactorily, I should say that five [)rofessors are required. 458. (^31r. Bernard.) Are you including experi- mental mechanics? — Yes; in fact I put electricity and magnetism together, and so make five professors I'equisite for the six divisions of the subject which I have mentioned. Each of these professors should have at least one demonstrator. I think there should be two demonstrators allotted to each, but certainly one. 459. {Dr. Bellamy.) And each one, 1 presume, would require a separate laboratory? — Yes, each would require a separate laboratory, a separate cabinet, separate assistants, and a separate fund for current expenses, &c. Moreover these professors should be sufficiently paid, so that they may be able to maintain Q C223. their position without having to supplement too small an income by doing work outside the university ; they would thus be able really to confine themselves to their university duties. In my letter to the Dean of Christ Church which has been referred to before, I have suggested that this is a complete scheme, but I have proposed a modified scheme in case the former cannot be carried out. 460. The Hebdomadal Council have recommended a modified scheme of giving you one additional pro- fessor, and two demonstrators instead of one ? — I think the Council recommended the appointment of one new professor of physics, and two demonstrators for him as well as two for myself. 461. {Mr. Bernard.) And they also recommend a professor of experimental mechanics and engineering ? —Yes. In the supplementary letter which is dated May 2nd, 1876, at page 98, f state “It will be necessary, “ however, that the new professor and the professor of “ experimental philosophy should each have the “ assistance of two demonstrators.” 462. {Prof. Smith.) But the Council has not been so liberal to you as you have been to yourself.^ — The Council has recommended that a second demonstrator should be appointed to assist me, and a third in the event of a small extension of the Clarendon Labora- tory. 463. {Chairman.) You did not originally recognise experimental mechanics as coming within the idea of physics ? — Yes. 464. At page 49 you say, “ 'fhese divisions are four “ in number, namely, acoustics, heat, optics, electri- “ city, and magnetism”? — Yes. These are the divisions of physics proper, electricity and magnetism being counted as one division. 465. {Mr. Bernard. ) And at page 50 you recom- mend an additional professor for the teaching of experimental mechanics ? — Yes. 466. {Chairman.) You suggest at page 49 that if you cannot get all that is desirable, then the next best thing would be “ one new' professor with “ one demonstrator and the necessary plant, wdio “ should take charge of the branches, heat and “ electricity, leaving acoustics and optics to be taught “ by the professor of experimental philosophy”? — That was the division of the subject which I suggested at that time, and perhaps it is the one which I should suggest now, if there is to be only one new professor ; but 1 should certainly like to modify my recommenda- tion as I have done in my later letter, by suggesting two demonstrators for each professor. Since this letter was written I have found that it is quite im- possible, as I state iti my second letter, to carry on satisfactorily the work at present undertaken with one demonstrator. 467. {Prof. Smith.) Even with the appointment of a second professor, the existing professor would re- quire another demonstrator } — Yes. 468. Ma}' I ask how you obtain the services of a second demonstrator at present ? — It happens that I have a small accumulation of university money in my hands. I have not always used all the money that the university allowed me for current expenses ; there is a balance which I had been saving to meet any extra- ordinary demands that might arise, and I was able to draw upon this. When this fund is exhausted I must, as the matter stands at present, supply the stipend of the second demonstrator myself, or at all events a part of it. 469. {Chairman.) vSupposing the work were sub- divided, would it still be equally necessary to have two demonstrators ? — It would. 470. {Earl of Redesdale.) There is always the chance, is there not, of one of the demonstrators being unwell ? — Yes ; it sometimes happens that a demonstra- tor is not able to attend owing to illness or some other cause, and if I am called away for other university work, and there is only one demonstrator, the laboratory has to be left entirely without supervision. D OXFORD R. B. Clifton, Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. 26 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD CO.AIMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. R. B. ('liftojt. Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. With one new professor the tvoi'K of the presen staff would not be in the least diminished ; this addition would give absolutely no relief, but it would simply enable more physics to be taught. The branches that I am now teaching I should have, or equivalent branches ; I should possibly substitute electricity for heat, but this would certainly not diminish my wmrk. 471. {Dr. Bellam?/.) It is possible, is it not, that the number of pupils might be doubled? — Yes, 1 think w’e should have the same number in both divi- sions, probably the same men. 472. {Prof. Smith.') The second demonstrator would cause considerable relief, would he not ? — The presence of a second demonstrator would prevent the inconveniences which have occurred, and w e should certainly be able to carry on the work more satisfactorily. 473. {Chairman.) As I understand, you have taught the whole of these subjects in the lectures, but in the laboratory you only undertake oj)tics ? — Y"es, in the laboratory 1 undertake optics myself, with the assist- ance of the demonstrators, and heat and elementary mechanics are mainly taught by the demonstrators. There is, how'ever, a way in which I think some relief could be got. There already exists here an office wdiieh is to a certain extent endowed, I do not know to what extent, but which I do not think is utilised as much that it might be ; I refer to the Lee’s reader- ship of physics at Christ Church. If the Lee’s reader- ship of physics could be made into a professorship this would give a third professor, and we should thus be able to divide the subject much more as it should be divided. If also any provision could be made for acoustics, as by the foundation of an assistant professor- ship, only to be filled up in case a really comj)etent man is to be found, then wdth the existing professor, one new' professor, the Lee’s reader, and this teacher of acoustics, the arrangement for physics, not including mechanics, would be practically complete. 474. {3Ir. Bernard.) What is the actual connexion of the Lee’s reader w ith Christ Church ? — A most inti- mate connexion. He draws his stipend from Christ Church, he is elected by Christ Church, and he lectures in Christ Church. 475. Is his w'ork as a teacher university work ? — He is practically the teacher of physics in Christ Church, although students from other colleges are admitted to his lectures on payment of a small fee. 476. You wish to some extent to sever his connexion with Christ Church ? — Yes, 1 wish to make him a uni- versity officer to such an extent that it w'ould be possible to include him in a general scheme for the subdivision of physics. 477. You mean that he should be bound to lecture to j)crsons not members of Christ Church ? — Y'^es, and that he should specially teach certain departments of the subject. Of course, as it stands now', Ave might make such an arrangement if the college thought fit ; but at any moment the Lee’s reader .may retire ; and tlie university having no control over the appointment of the new reader, a person might be elected Avho was specially qualified in branches already fully repre- sented ; these branches would thus be provided for in duplicate Avhile other branches would be unrepresented. 478. {Prof. Smith.') There would be no necessity for breaking the connexion of the Lee’s reader Avith Christ Church, or severing him from the foundation of Christ Church ? — No, except possibly in some small degree in the method of appointment ; otherwise I can see none. It is, how'ever, most important that all the physical laboratories should be close together, so that the Lee’s reader Avould reciuire a laboratory attached to the museum. 479. {Chairman.) Would it, upon the same prin- ciple, be possible to utilise the professorship of music ? — I have thought of that ; but 1 am afraicl that it is impossible. With respect to the suggestions Avhich I have ventured to make about supplying these requirements, they really come to the utilisation of an existing chair and the endowment of a neAV one. I think I am not doing wrong in mentioning, as the matter has been brought before the Council that Merton College has offered to do all in its poAver, that is to say, to try and obtain permission to suppress tw'o fellowships and to found a professorship of physics ; so that really the requirements for almost a complete scheme are already in train for accomplishment, so far as the superior teachers are concerned. 480. That takes us to the next head in your paper, “ Suggestions as to the method of meeting these re- “ quirements, so far, at least, as the superior teachers “ are concerned ?” — I have already stated all I have to say on this matter ; perhaps, however, the two fellow- ships Avould hardly be sufficient in point of money to induce a really competent man to take the professorshij). 481. What Avould the}- be Avorth ? — They are each 300/. per annum ; but there are college deductions Avhich would someAvhat reduce the value ; but I am afraid that it Avould be very difficult to get a comjretent man for 600/. a year. If the new professor has a family, the expenses of living and especially the expenses ol‘ educating children, are now so great that it would be quite impossible that a man could maintain his jiosition with comfort upon such an income. At all events, in the Merton offer there is a good beginning, and in the Christ Church office there is also a very good beginning, if terms could be made Avith the college. 482. {Mr. Bcrnai’d.) Do you think that the univer- sity does what it ought for this great group of sciences so long as it leaves its teachers no time at all for origi- nal work ? — Certainly not if it had the means of securing to its teachers the necessary leisure, but at present it does not possess the means. 483. Do you know how Ave stand in that respect as compared Avith other universities ? — I should say that Ave are very inferior in many ways as compared with foreign universities. In Berlin I have been informed that there are at least nine professors in physics, or people engaged in teaching physics. I do not knoAv Avhether my information is correct, but I can recall the names of four eminent jihysicists (and a fifth died recently) connected Avith the University of Berlin. 484. II as Berlin or have other German universities produced much in the way of original Avork upon these subjects? — Yes, certainly they have. Ilesearch is looked upon as a very important part of the professors’ duty (juite as important as teaching. 485. Are you obliged to resort to German books much ? — Yes, to German and French books ; in fact the general text book Avhich I am noAV using in the laboratory is in French, and Ave are constantly obliged to resort to German books. 486. Perhaps not to so great an extent as in physi- ology ? — No. Perhaps not to so great an extent, but still to a very great extent. It is quite necessary that a physicist should be able to read French and German. 487. Do you knoAV Avhether those Avorks have been produced chiefiy in universities or by persons Avork- ing in them ? — Almost entirely by persons aa Iio are either in training for professorships or are actual pro- fessors. 488. {Chairman.) What have you to state with regard to your next head, namely, “ Suggestions as to the method of promoting physical research?” — One suggestion is that it is undesirable to attempt to sepa- rate teaching from research. I believe that each very materially assists the other, assuming of course that leisure is left to the teacher for research. I think that the best way of obtaining satisfactory results in both directions would be to have the number of teachers so large that such a subdivision of each subject could be made as to leave each man time to undertake original Avork in the part which he Avas teaching. I believe, too, that the teaching Avould be enormously improved by the fact that the teacher Avas actually at work in the subject. So far as my experience goes, the results which the students themselves obtain by perhaps the incorrect use of instruments, or by accident, and also circumstances arising during the preparation of lectures, often furnish clues Avhich ii' followed up AA'ould, I believe, lead to results of con- siderable value. Perhaps I may be alloAved just to UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 27 mention one other point. I tliink it would be a very . you think would be the maximum which ought to be O XFOR D, great advantage if funds coidd be placed at the dis- iixed ?— 150/. a year for five years would be I should ^ ^ Clifion po.sal of the professors to enable them, when they see say quite sufficient to start a man. A fellowship for fit, to retain promising students for a short time, say life, I think, often does a very considerable amount of as'assistant demonstrators, or as assistants in research, harm to a man. It gives him the means of compa- 23 Oct. 1877 or as both. Of course those funds so administered rative idleness and the temptation to be idle. It is would be equivalent to terminable fellowships of small often gained just at the time when that temptation is value, and held only during the execution of definite irresistible. A man has just been undergoing for years an enormous strain in preparing for and in 489. This leads rather to the next point upon your going through examinations, and he is absolutely in paper, namely, the evil of the present system of fel- need of rest ; he then gets an income which, although lowsh’ips awarded by examination. What have you not very great, is at all events a permanency, and he to remark upon that subject? — It is only after a man finds himself with this income, more or less sufficient has passed the university examinations, or in the case for his present wants, under the necessity of taking of a man (a case which, I am happy to say, very fre- rest, and it is very likely that under the circumstances quently occurs) who studies with me, with no intention this necessity may lead to a habit of taking rest; of undergoing examination that really good work can — the result will be an idle and very useless life, be obtained. The anxiety to prepare for examination 494. {Prof. Smith.) Returning for a moment to seems to me to be absolutely destructive of thoroughly those fellowships which are awarded only as prizes good work. When a man has an examination hanging for physical science, do you think that an examina- over him he is strongly tempted to pay attention tion should have nothing to do with the award of such only to what he considers will “pay,” and the subject fellowships, and in fact tliat they should be awarded is not treated from a really scientific point of view, but wholly without examination? — Without examination from the point of view of acquiring the power of in the present sense of the word, rapidly reproducing his knowledge of those parts 495. {Chairman.) That is to say, you think that it which can be set in the examinations. should be an examination to be conducted not by the 490. Do you think that the objects intended to be college, but by the Natural Science Board, or what? — attained by giving certain emoluments, university Perhaps not even an examination in the strict sense fellowships, or fellowships specially for physical of the w'ord at all, hut an election should he made science, are not practically accomplished ? — Only to a from a knowledge of the man’s previous work. very moderate extent. I think that the present system 496. {Mr. Bernard.) You are speaking now, are you of giving fellowships by examination is a serious evil, not, of payment to be made on the condition of con- because it keeps the examination test hanging over a tinned work, not of fellowships given to assist a man man longer, and practically, if a man expects to have during his start in life ? — I fear I misunderstood a chance of obtaining a fellowship, it induces him to Professor Smith’s question; these prize fellowships waste his time for some years in doing schoolboys’ must be awarded as the result of an examination of work in schoolboys’ fashion in order to keep up for the some kind. I see no other way. examination. If a man for even one year leaves the 497. {Prof. Smith.) Even in the case of physics ? — beaten track and devotes himself to one department ot I see no other way. a subject, it becomes practically impossible to examine 498. {Chairman.) Are we to conclude that you do him in the ordinary way ; he is almost certain to fail, not think that the study of physics is really promoted portly from forgetAdness of some parts of the subject by having a few fellowships appropriated specially to it? and partly from a due appreciation of the difficulties — The kind of fellowship I have proposed would of other parts. materially promote the study of physics, but I think 491. What remedy would you suggest; do you that the advantage derived from the present system suggest any different mode of giving fellowships? — I is extremely small. 1 should not like to say that there should like to see a certain number of fellowships, is no advantage, but I think it very small indeed, perhaps not attached to colleges, for difficulties of a There are not many fellowships given for physics social character might possibly thus arise, provided alone at present. out of funds placed at the disposal of each professor 499. d'he general tenor of what you have said or of boards of professors, subject of course to some about fellowships is not specially confined, I presume, control to prevent possible jobbery. In this way the to that class of fellowships, but it extends to all ? — teachers would be able, without further examination Y"es. I have arrived at these conclusions from the to select those students whom they know to be men of effects which I have seen, and I certain!}' think that, ability, and to be willing to devote their attention to when a man has just got to that state of knowledge original work, and retain them whilst they do it. which might lender him really useful, and has passed 492. So that instead of natural history fellowships the university examination with distinction to keep of scholarships at the colleges, there should be an him for two or three years longer grinding away at his e(iuivalent contribution to a fund to be managed by schoolboy work in the old fashion is really wasting the Natural Science School or Board ? — I wish to see two or three years of his life. the latter plan adopted in some form, but I am not 500. The next point in your paper is the advantage prepared to advocate the entire abolition of fellowships of introducing the study of practical mechanics and for natural science in colleges. All |that 1 say refers engineering into this university, and the requirements to fellowships and not to scholarships. I think that as to its teachers ; what have you to say upon that scholarships to a great extent do their work. It seems subject? — It seems to me that we are offering now at to me, however, that fellowships of 200/. or 300/. a the university an education which fits a man for year for life with no duties attached are really too several professions, but that there is one very important great prizes for mere schoolboy attainments ; taking profession, namely, that of engineering, on which the also into account that a man ought to make the best material wealth of the country to a great extent use of his opportunities in his own interest, to give a depends, towards entering which we offer no special man 200/. or 300/. a year for taking advantage of his assistance. Of course a very large amount of help opportunities ol gaining knowledge is a little in excess. cannot be given, because as a business it must be At the same time I think that prize fellowships ought learned like any other business in the workshop and to be retained in some form in the interest of the pro- the counting-house ; but there are parts of it which fessions, to enable men of proved ability to enter them are what I may call theoretical, a knowledge of which wiihout unnecessary hardships ; but these fellowships a man ought to have before he goes into the practical should be smaller in amount and terminable, and of details. I think it would be a great advantage if the course free from all restrictions as to celibacy, and so university could introduce the study of these more theoretical portions. 493. Instead, for instance, of being from 200/. to 501. Is that the same subject to which you refer at 300/. a year, would you suggest any amount which page 98? — Yes. D 2 28 UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. R. B. Clifton, Esq., M.A. 23 Oct. 1877. .302. And the same which the Hebdomadal Council lias recommended? — The Council recommended the foundation of a professorship of mechanics and enjiineering. I think, however, it would be un- desirable to have one professorship for tlie whole subject ; two professors would be required, one of whom would take mechanics, the principles of mechanism, and the strength of materials, whilst the other would devote his attention to the ap]ilications or the theoretical part of the applications of mechanics, such as the stability of structures, and other depart- ments of civil engineering. 503. {Prof. Smith.) Is it not the case that in many universities those subjects are all assigned to one pro- fessor ? — In some they are, but in others they are not. I feel it necessary to introduce this subject to your notice, because it really is closely connected with the department of physics; the professor who takes charge of exnerimental mechanics would teach what I have mentioned as the first branch of physics, and then with the three professorships of physics previously proposed, the arrangements for this department of science would be complete. 504. {Chairman.) You proposed, I think, that heat should be associated with practical mechanics? — I did so on the supposition that physics, including experi- mental mechanics, was to be divided between three professors, but it would be more desirable to have a distinct professorship of experimental mechanics. It is important to observe that elementary mechanics really underlies the whole study of natural science ; it underlies physics, chemistry, and biology. It is therefore very necessary that a course of lectures on elementary meclianics should be given every year. Under existing circumstances a tolerably complete course on this subject can only be delivered at long intervals, but with this special professorship such a course could be given every year. 505. The last point upon your paper is, that it is advisable that professors should be compelled to retire when they become unfit for work, and that retiring pensions should be provided for them, what have you to say upon this subject? — I think it is very undesir- able that a professor should be allowed to go on indefi- nitely when he becomes unfit for work, and instead of acting as a motor in the department performs the functions of a drag. 506. By what means is that time to be ascertained unless the professor voluntarily retires? — He fre- quently gives unmistakeable indications that the time has arrived, but the simplest way would be to compel the professor to retire after a certain length of service, the university retaining the power of reappointment, if desirable. The plan which I have been informed is generally adopted in Russia seems to be most satisfactory ; it appears that there a professor is appointed for a certain length of time, during which he is supposed to be able to work, and when he has been in office, say for 20 or 2.5 years, he is compelled to retire, and in that case 1 believe he retires upon his full stipend ; but it does happen sometimes, that a professor just when he is called upon to retire is at his very best; he is not the least worked out, and his experience makes him much more valuable as the head of a department than a younger man ; in that case he is re-elected to the professorship and retains his pension, but of course he is re-elected only for a short time. This plan first of all prevents inefficient people from remaining in the departments, and secondly it gives a very great inducement to a man to strive to maintain his efficiency by holding out the hope of this additional reward at the end of his career. 507. {Mr. Bernard.) If he retires upon his full pay what inducement is there to him to desire to be re- elected ? — It is practically doubling his income; he gets his pension, and his lull pay during the time of his Teappointment. Perhaps he may not always receive the full amount of the stipend in addition to his pension, so far as I have been able to make out, from what I have been told it varies a little. It is, however, most undesirable that people should be allowed to go on when they are inefficient, because it makes it extremely difficult for a department to be raised again to the proper state after it has been some years in abeyance. 508. {Chairman.) Supposing that you had to appoint a man absolutely for 20 or 25 years, he might become inefficient within that time from a variety of causes ; first of all a man might not answer the ex- pectations that were formed of him if he had not been tried before in exactly similar circum.stances ? — Pre- cisely^ so. I have not considered the details of any system, but it would probably be necessary to have some plan of short service with a small pension, or a long service with a larger pension, or some arrange- ment of that kind. 509. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you know how the large array of professors that we hear of at foreign uni- versities is maintained ? — By the State, I believe. 510. For example, how would it be with regard to the professors of physics at Berlin ; the Government there being I believe a frugal Government? — I believe that they are all paid by the State, except so far as fees may assist in providing the incomes. oil. {Chairman.) Do they to any great extent derive their salaries from fees ? — I think they do. I am not sure about Berlin, but at other places I have been informed that they do derive a material part of their salaries from fees. I do not think one half, but a material part is derived from fees. Of course in Germany the university course necessarily precedes entrance into a profession, and therefore the number of students is very considerable, and the fees mav mount up. 512. {Prof. Smith.) As the study of physics requires a certain amount of mathematical preparation, I wish to ask whether you are satisfied with the present arrangements of the universityfor giving to the students that previous mathematical training which is neces- sary ? — I cannot say that I am. I think that depart- ment also wants very considerable development. We want more professors of mathematics as well as Oi uther subjects. 513. It is another question how the deficiency should be supplied ; but as a matter of fact is it not the case that the training in the more physical parts of mathematics is very deficient? — I have found that in many cases it is very deficient. I do not know the career that all my pupils have gone through, but I sometimes observe disj)lays of ignorance which arc almost ludicroLKs. 514. {Dr. Bellamy/.) Were those students who have come to you and who had taken mathematical degrees ? — Yes, even those who had taken mathematical degrees. 515. {Chairman.) I suppose that a physicist to teach optics ought 10 be thoroughly conversant with what 1 may call mathematical optics ? — Certainly. 516. So that lu' must be thoroughly capable, so far as he attains it, of teaching the mathematical part as well as the part which you call physical ^ — Certainly he ought to be. I think that no greater evil could arise in the department of physics than an attenqjt to separate the theoretical from the practical part of it, and to put the theoretical teaching in the hands of a mathematician and the practical teaching in the hands of a merely skilful experimenter. I must express the opinion that the results of such an arrangement would be simply disastrous to the subject. 517. Then a similar (juestion arises with regard to the proposed professorship of mechanics and engi- neering. Would it or not be desirable that theoretical statics and dynamics should be in the same hands? — I think that would not be desirable. I think theo- retical mechanics considered as a branch of mathe- matics, and as required of students jrresenting them- selves for examination in the School of Mathematics, would probably occupy the whole time of the existing jrrofessor of natural jrhilosophy. What a professor of experimental mechanics would have to do would be to explain the principles upon which the general mathematical developments are founded, not so much the mathematical part as the determination, if I may UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 29 use tcclinical language, of the constants whicli are involved in the niaLliemati<;al processes; special atten- tion would also b(! given to a subject not at present studied here, namely, the science of machinery ; in fact his main attention would be devoted to working out a particular set of mechanical problems wbich would be really wanted by students who were going to be professional mechanicians; such problems, for instance, as are involved in the construction and operation of a steam engine. 518. You stated that practical mechanics and engi- neering underlie all the subjects of physics. I sup- posed that you meant the principles of statics and dynamics ? — Experimental and theoretical mechanics underlie the whole subject. 519. 1 do not quite understand how anything but theoretical mechanics can underlie ail those subjects ? — Such matters as the actual methods of determining the force of gravity, the methods of determining the constants of elasticity and the general proirerties of OXFORD. elastic bodies, and a great variety of such experimental methods are supposed to be known to a physicist, Clifton, but could hardly be included in a course intended for M. A. ortlinary university instruction in theoretical mechanics 23 Oct 1877 as required for the school of mathematics. 520. You mean that there are common processes of investigation which underlie all these, and which belong to the department of experimental mechanics ? — Yes, but I think two teachers would be required, a mathematician and a person to deal with practical problems. 521. {Prof. Smith.) As a matter of fact, would it not be very difficult to find a person who would be competent to undertake both departments? — Yes, it would be very difficult to find such a man, and I think it would be practically impossible for him to teach such an extensive range of subjects, even if he could be found. The witness withdrew. Ailjourned to to-morrow at half-j)ast 10 o’clock. OXFORD. Wednesday, 24th October 1877. Present : The Eight Honourable LORD SELBORNE in the Chair. The Right Hon. The Earl of Redesdale. The Rev. James Bellamy, D.D. The Right Hon. Mountague Bernarh, D.C.L. Professor Henry J. S. Smith, M.A. The Rev. T. Vere Bayne and T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secrclorics. C. E, C. B. Appleton, Esq., D.C.L. , Fellow of St. John’s College, examined. 522. {Chairman.) It will be convenient that I should take this paper which you have been so good as to prepare, and read tlie different heads, so that you may state your views upon them in the order in which I hey are here written. The first point is as to the reservation of a certain portion of the fellowship fund for the maintenance and extension of knowledge. VVe will ask you to furnish us with your views upon that subject ? — It has been my lot for some years past to live a good deal in London, nnd to come in contact with the learned class there ; and this has led me to notice the difference between the learned class in London and in the provinces, and the learned class in Oxford; and the conclusion to which I have come is that w hilst on the one hand in Oxford, with a highly elaborate educational system, we have no means or conditions for the maintenance or extension of know- ledge; on the other, the researeh and investigation which goes on in the country, owing partly to the growth, no doubt, of new subjects not recognised by the university, is carried on by persons who have not received the benefit of a liberal education. There is thus a divorce, therefore, between the progress of knowledge and the higher education such as can be bad here, and that divorce 1 am most anxious that the Commissioners should rake into consideration, ana if possible remedy. A large number of the per- sons who are engaged in London, both in physical researches and also in philological and historical re- searches, are merely specialists, who have no con- ception of the bearings of rheir special subjects upon the rest of knowledge, who have no power of self- criticism, and consequently whose results, however excellent, fall short of that highest point of attainment which 1 submit that a university should set up as its standard. The position of the student in England, of whatever subject (I am not speaking merely of physical science or of any particular studies), is an isolated one, and he has no means of coming in contact, except in a casual way, with people engaged in other studies, or in studies like his own ; more than all he has no real contact with what we call here the higher education. Now it was evidently the intention, at least in my opinion, of the original founders of i’ellowshi])s to pro- vide a maintenance and to hold out a career for those persons who made learning their profession. Owing to a number of historical accidents, these fellowships have become partly absorbed in the educational system of the university' and colleges, and have partly liecome what is tantamount to a subsidy to the liberal profes- sions, more particularly to the profession of the law. I am of course alluding to the distinction between resident fellowships which are absorbed in the educational system mainly, and held hy tutors and lecturers and professors, and non-resident fellowships, which are held largely by barristers, clergymen, and to some extent by doctors, and also largely by persons engaged in the Civil Service of this country. It has appeared to me then that, although it may be very desirable to subsidise what are called the liberal professions, still the claim of learning is a claim which the university, and I should venture to add the Commissioners, may reasonably regard as a claim prior to the claims of the liberal professions. T should therefore propose that in dealing with non-resident fellowships they should not be entirely absorbed in the educational system, nor, on the other hand, should be simply given as what are called prizes to clever men who get good classes. 1 am far from underrating the importance of having a fellow of a college, or a man who has taken a first- class, enter the liberal professions, and T would there- fore set aside a certain number of fellowships, which are now non-resident fellowships, for this purpose, as prizes for a limited period to support a man whilst C. E. C. B. Appleton, Esq., D.C.L. 24 Oct. 1877. D 3 80 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMBIISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. jg struggling in liis career. But that will leave a ^ g very large margin, a margin which I think will be Apple.ion^Esq., 30,000/. a year, gradually falling in as D.C.L. these non-resident fellowships are vacated — lor the — — purposes oi the maintenance of learning. I am not 24 Oct. 1877. sure whether I am perfectly correct, but I think " that I am near the mark in saying that the total number of fellowships is about 300; of these more than half are at present held by non-residents, and consequently form no part of the subsidy of the educational system. I think that the country is now prepared to see these non-resident fellowships dealt with, and it is very important that they should be , dealt with judiciously. 30,000/., roughly then, is what I should propose to take from the fellowship fund. 523. How many fellowship do you reckon there ? — At the present rate in Oxford we require for the educational system about 150 fellowships. Taking my own college as a sample, we want about three or four tutors, and three lecturers, and a bursar. Roughly speaking, I should say that there would be seven or eight fellowships in each college wanted for the carrying on of the educational business of the univer- sity ; that makes for the 20 colleges about 150 fellowships; that will leave 150 fellowships, roughly speaking, to be dealt with ; those would bring in, at 250/. a year (the average value of a fellowship), 37,500/. Now, out of that 37,500/, 1 should jn'opose to set aside 7.500/. a year for the purpose of prizes ; that would give, 1 think, about five or six prize fellowships a year, which seems to me to be an ample provision for the subsidy of tbe liberal professions. This would leave 30,000/. a year to be used for the maintenance of what I would call “ studentships.” .524. {Mr. Bernard.') You are now dealing with the annregate of all the fellowshii)s in the university ; what is it ? — 75,000/. 525. Is not the total annual value more than that ? — It is probably more. I was taking it upon a rough estimate of 250/. for a fellowship. 526. In the long run that would be so, but at j>re- sent many fellows receive a great deal more than that ? — Yes. 527. {Dr. Bellamy.) And some are less ? — Yes. 528. ( Chairman.) Then is it you view, by the calculation which }a)u have mentioned, to deal with 150 fellowships, which would at least produce the sum which you have mentioned, namely, 37,500/., of which you would retain for ]>rize fellowships 7,500/., and would subsidise learning or research with 30,000/.? —Yes. 520. {Mr. Ber7iard.) Y^ou allow 30,000/. for the educational system ? — More than 30,000/. I allow 37,500/. for the educational system, namely, half of the whole 75,000/. ; of the other moiety, 7,500/. should be given, in my opinion, for prizes, and the remaining 30,000/. should be dealt with otherwise. 530. {Dr. Bellamy.) If you have so few fellowships, you have nothing for pensions to decayed tutors ? — That of course would have to be considered. I should put that consideration under the head of the requirements of the educational system, to which I appropriate half of the whole fellowship fund. 531. {Chairman.) I suppose that that brings us to the next point which you have put down, namely, that the endowment of new professorships and readerships is not really sufficient? — I have been reading lately tbe recommendations which have been made by the Hebdomadal Council, by the Boards of Studies, and by the various professors, and I see that almost all, more particularly tbe Boards of Studies, have recog- nised the maintenance of research as a very important function of the university ; some even go so far as to say that it is the most important function which the university has. In the report of the Board of Studies for the School of Modern History it is said, “ There is “ in the inter-collegiate arrangement no security for the encouragement of research, the special province “ of a university.” 532. Is that their first or their second report ; what IS the date of it? — I am speaking of a series of reports published in the “ Oxford University Gazette.” 533. Is the date 1873 or later ? — 1876. 534. Then that is what we have at page 90, I pre- sume, ot this book? — It is at page 358 in the “ Oxford University Gazette,” at the top of the second column. The Board of Studies for the School of Modern His- tory take objection to the inter-collegiate arrangement as affording no provision for the encouragement of research, which they state to be the special province of a university. I merely point to the passage as a strong expression of the importance of the endowment of research. A similar statement is made by the Commissioners on Scientific Instruction and the Ad- vancement of Science, extracts from whose report are printed at the end of these reports ; and almost all the professors, and I think all the Boards of Studies, except the Board of Studies for the classical lan- guages, recommend the same thing ; but the solution which they offer to this question, of which they recognise the importance, does not seem to me to be adequate. They say, “Increase the professoriate, “ multiply readers, and you will then have given all “ the necessary maintenance which is required for “ learning.” Now", in the present state of the uni- versity system, in which the claims of an education of a very elaborate kind are so exacting, the position of a professor has become really identical with that of a college tutor ; it is very much the same position as the position ot the professors in the American universities. In the American universities, which I visited some two years ago, some of the most eminent men com- plained to me that the professors had to perform tlie functions of the tutor, and the lecturer, and the private tutor. That statement is borne out by a letter from Mr. William Ogle, who says precisely the same thiim of Oxford. 535. What is the date of that letter? — 1873. 536. It is at pages 38 and 39 of our book ? — Mr. Ogle says that at present he has to be not merely professor, but jwofessor, tutor, and private tutor in one. Now. that is I'eally the position which the professors since the last Commission have taken. Before the last Commission they did little or nothing ; they now show a tendency to do everything. 537. That statement relates, does it not, specially to the School of Natural Science? — It does. 538. He begins by saying, “ My remarks refer only to the biological department”? — Yes. I was merely taking that as an instance of what is true of all the faculties. The only exceptions would be found in those subjects which do not enter into the curri- culum. A professor of the ordinary subjects, i.c., of Latin, Greek, history, mathematics, and physical science, performs the functions of tutor and lecturer as w'ell as professor, and it is only when you get to professors of the outlying subjects, lying on the limits of useful knowledge, such as a professor of Chinese, a professor of Celtic, a professor of Egyptology, a professor of comparative philology, &c. that you get professors who have no educational duties, because their subjects do not enter into the educa- tional system ; these alone would have leisure for research. It would follow from this, if what I have just stated is true, that if you depend for the endowment and maintenance of learning upon an extension of the professoriate only, you will be endowing and maintaining learning in the outlying special subjects, and will be neglecting to do so in the case of those subjects which form the staple of the education of Engiishmen. 539. Does that bring you to the next head of your suggestions, namely, a new order of “ studentships ” ? — What I would propose for the consideration of the Commissioners is that a certain number of the fellow- ships should be given, not for educational efficiency, nor for cleverness shown in an examination, as at pre- sent, but for qualities which admit quite well of being judged of by competent persons, qualities whicb would fit a man for increasing and extending know- ledge. The nearest approach at present to what I UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 81 want to see restored in (his university is the Riidcliffe Ti'avelling Fellowshi[). The Kadcliffe Ti'avelling rellowshi[) is given after a man has taken a dis- tinguished ddgree in physical science, in order tliat he may travel abroad; and he is obliged to be abroad for some large portion of three years to improve his knowledge, and I think that he is bound by statute on his return to produce something like a piece of new knowledge which he has acquired in his travels. 540. Are you able to refer to any fruits of impor- tance which that institution has produced? — The latest fruits I think have been very satisfactory indeed. One of the most recent holders of the Kadcliffe 'fravelling Fellowship, Mr. Moseley, of Exeter Col- lege, was appointed first naturalist to the “Challenger',” and went round the world in that capacity. He has brought home an immense quantity of new scientific material which is gradually being published by tbe Royal Society, and elsewhere. He is likebt to turn out, if 1 may believe those who seem competent to judge, one of the first naturalists of this kingdom. .541. How long has the institution been in exis- tence ; I suppose since lire time of George the Second? —Yes. 542. Are you able to refer to any other instances of men who have contributed much to learning by their research, who have held Kadcliffe fellowships ? — I have not considered that question. I have no doubt that there are many persons who can answer that question better than I can; but I would mention Mr. E. Ray Lankester’s researches on the Develop- ment of Mollusca, which were made during his tenure of the Kadcliffe Fellowship. I only speak of men whom I have known personally, and who are the latest instances of the fruitfulness of this foundation. What we want, then, is I think something like the Kadcliffe Travelling Fellowship, only with certain differences. It of course should not be merely for physical science, but for all departments of know- ledge ; it should not necessarily be travelling unless the subject matter of the study required it, and it should not be terminable at the end of three years, but in the case of proficiency and ability shown, and real accessions to knowledge made, the holder should be re-eligible at the end of three years, and his income should slightly increase. Then after two or three years more (it need not necessarily be three years ; I only desire to draw attention to the sort of institution which we already have, and which I wish to develop), at the end of another period during which he would undertake another definite piece of work, he might be again elected, subject to the dis- cretion of the university, and so on, until say 10 or 12 years had passed, during which period he would have done a considerable amount of research. At the end of each of these short periods, supposing that his work was unsatisfactory, there would be no liardship to bim if the university refused to renew the grant. The period would be according to tbe size of the work under- taken ; I think that it should be distinctly a modest j)iece of work which he undertook to begin with, a piece of work suited to the capacity of a young man, and which he would be likely to be able to bring to an issue without flagging in it in consequence of the length of time which it took. 543. Have you considered, with reference to the large sum which you have mentioned, the number of studentships which you would establish ? — I would not start by setting up any definite number. Perhaps before going on to that question you would allow me to mention one othfer difference from the Kadcliffe Travelling Fellowship, namely, that the studentship which I am describing should not be given, as the Kadcliffe Travelling Fellowship is, by examination. 544. How would you give it ? — I think that it should be given by the recommendation of the faculty to which the study belongs. 545. By what Board of Electors ? — The principal recommendation to begin with, would be that of the professor with whom the candidate had worked. What I should substitute for the test of examination would he the still more stringent and practical test 0X4011D of work done conjointly with a professor. It is iu»t an ^ ~£~(j b uncommon thing in the universities of Germany for Esq. young and jjromising students to be, so to speak, D.C.L. ’ taken into partnership with a professor and set to perform work not only under his eye, but in con- 24 Oct. 1877. junction with him. The professor hands over a certain ' quantity of the research which he is engaged in doing in order that the student may help him to carry it on. Professor Max Muller has told me that when "he was a young man, one of the turning points in his career was his association in this manner with a distin- guished philologist ; he went to that philologist in order to be taught, but the latter employed liim in part of tlie research in which he was himself engaged. If a professor would do this Avith his more {)romising pupils he would then know the candidate very much better than you can possibly tell tbe qualities of a candidate by examination, and I should take his re- commendation first; he should nominate, and then I think that the rest of the Board of Electors might consist of the professors in the same faculty ; if it is history, c.ff., the members of the Board of Studies in that faculty. The college which gives the money for the studentship should perhaps be represented; and lastly, I think that there should be a metro- politan element introduced, some distinguished person, c.ff., a great historian or a great naturalist, wdiose opinion should also be asked. That, I think, w'ould be, very roughly drawn, a Board of Electors Avhich would be satisfactory to the country ; it would not be possible to bave what is called “jobbery” under such a system as that. I repeat that I should not propose to create any number of fellowships off hand, but simply as the non-resident fellowships repre- senting the .30,000/. fell in, I should propose that these fellowships should be suspended, and that a fund should gradually be formed in that way, to be dispensed conjointly with great caution and discre- tion by the university and the colleges providing the funds to men of remarkable ability in the matter of research and investigation. An application wouhi, when a case arose, be made to the university for a student-fellowship out of this fund ; but it should not be considered, as at present, that because a fellow- ship was vacant, therefore it must be filled up, unless a fitting man presented himself. 546. Have you formed any opinion as to what the value of each studentship should be ? —I think that at first the studentship should be very modest in amount, 200/., just enough fora man to live upon; but I think that it ought gradually to increase so that in 10 or 12 years the holder might bave enough to marry upon and to bring up a family in a suitable manner. What one wants is to make the profession of learning, which is not a popular profession in this country', compete in a pecuniary point of view with what are called the practical professions. Many a clever man, who might devote himself to increasing knowledge and would rather do that than anything else, for want of a career goes into practical life because he is sure that there his abilities will earn him ultimately a competency ; whilst he knows he has no career what- ever if he devotes himself to research. 547. (Mr. Bernard.) What is to happen at the end of the 10 or 12 years’ probation (as Ave may call it); is the student still to be re-elected for short terms as before ? — I think not. I think that the tenure should be precarious until a man’s habits are fixed and his character is formed, until, say, he is 32 or 35 ; and that then he should have a life pension. He AA'ould then have shoAvn what stuff Avas in him ; he Avonld then bave shown whether he Avas capable of conduct- ing inquiries fruitfully, and you might then (juite securely give him a life-studentship of sufficient amount to settle upon. 548. (Prof. Smith.) Of Avhat amount do you sup- pose the life-pension should be ? — It Avould depend ratber upon the price of provisions at the time ; at present some of the professors here insist uj)on having 1,000/. a year. I think that a man should be able to l-i 4 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. C. E. C. B. Appleton, Esq., D.C.L. 24 Oct. 1877. look torward to having ultimately 700/. or 800/. a year. I would only propose it in this way, that he should idtiniately be able to look forward to a [josition monetarily as good as that of a t utor in a college who has a fellowsliip as well as a tutorship. 519. It has of course struck you that if we said that 30,000/. should be allowed for that purpose, after you had had 20 students who had arrived at the age of 35, which is not very late in a man’s life, you would have absorbed in that way 14, 000/. a year of your whole amount. Would you then see your way to granting further small pensions which were to lead to a similar result at the end? I only wish to direct your attention to the fact that the maintenance of these large pay- ments after the age of 35, and the considerable amount of it, do of necessity absorb a very large sum of money; and I would ask you how you could -work your scheme under those conditions ? — The number of students doubtless would not be large, but the number of people who were of such a kind as to be worthy of being elected to such a post as the student- ship which I describe, would not be large either. And it must be remembered that they woukl not all start abreast, but would be of different ages, thus jtroviding continual vacancies. I think that if we had a moderate number of men in Oxford engaged in in- creasing knowledge, it would be as much as w'e could hope to have. 550. {Dr. Bellamy.) Of whatever age ? — Of what- ever age, some young and some old, some distin- guished, and some likely to become distinguished. 551. {Chairman.) That naturally leads to the next of your heads; you obviously see that there would be serious risk of the object not being attained without safeguards, and I understand that you are prepared to submit a draft scheme of safeguards ? — 1 have a draft scheme. 552. Will you read it? — It was first written for a weekly journal, and I reprinted it with a large margin, in order that it might be submitted to some of the chief scientific men of fhis country and of America. I have done that, and have had their remarks upon it, and their retnarks upon it have not led me to make any considerable modification in it. I think that it has received a good deal of approval too in the public press. You have already elicited the points in this scheme by questions. 553. If a con.-iderable sum were given, would not there always be candidates for it, anil would not pro- fessors be likely to recommend gentlemen who would not ultimately contribute very largely to the promo- tion of knowledge? — I think that a conscientious and competent })rofessor would be likely to recommend a man who in his opinion would contribute to the pro- motion of knowledge. I do not think that we have any reason prospectively to charge our professors with favouritism. 554. I do not mean that, but there is such a thing as mediocrity, and there is such a thing as excellence ; do you not think that a very large proportion of these prizes would fall to mediocrity ? — I do not think that they' would alw’ays fall to genius. One of the objec- tions to the draft scheme which I have had to meet is that by artificial means I wish to create genius ; of course that is impossible; but there is the possibility of helping genius by maintaining competence, and I think that what w'e have to deal with in the long run is not the great discoverers who make a great generalisation, but the large number of workers who stand behind those men of genius and verify their generalisation, or make preliminary studies leading up to it. In every generation there are a large number of persons of a humble kind who are concerned with the media axiomata of knowledge, and it is with these that we have to deal directly in providing for the maintenance and extension of knowledge, and only indirectly Avith per.sons of exalted genius. 555. Tlien that makes a demand for research rather of a moderate kind than of a very high order ? — Moderate in the sense of being modest, but none the less desirable and necessary. 556. But does not that increase the risk of its being in danger of becoming a practical sinecure ? — I think that it would be prevented from becoming a practical sinecure by the Board which I have sketched, there being jn-ofessors on the Board in the same faculty, and also distinguished men in the subject outside the professoriate, who could judge whether the work done were real work, although it might be modest Avork. 557. The election in the first instance must be in the hope of Avork, and not upon proof of it, must it not? — Not entirely. I suppose that a young man who desires to have one of the studentships has already, before he receives it, associated himself during the final period of his education, with a professor in the work in Avhich that professor is engaged. 558. A ])erson is elected to a studentship on the recommendation of a professor in the first instance ; but looking beyond that you rely for his re-election from time to time upon proof of his having done some- thing to deserve it ? — Y’es. 559. Is It not the experience of the world that motives of friendship, and kindness, and gooclAvill, and indisposition to cut off a man’s career and prospects, might lead to a very lax use of that poAver of testing .for re-election ? — I do not think that it necessarily would be so if the elections Avere at first for sufficiently short periods. There Avould be no hardship in sending aAvay a man Avho had not done credit to himself, but who had only produced a mediocre result, at the age of 25 or 28. 560. Each step would increase the hardship ? — Each step would iitcrease the hardship and each step Avould increase also the improbability that the candi- date would have to be rejected. 561. Supposing that a man had done something not very important, would it not be a very difficult thing to reject him upon the ground of its not being quite important enough?— It would not be a matter of rejection, because he would have no vested right to be re-elected, he would simply be paid for doing a certain piece of work, at the end of Avhich he might, or might not, be asked to do another piece of work. 562. Is it a part of your plan that the work which he has to do is to be assigned to him ? — Not assigned to him apart from his OAvn choice, but that he shoidd select some piece of AVork to Avhich his tastes naturally' turn him, and that it should be approved by the board of electors as a j)iece of solid investigation wanting to be done, and Avhicli has not already been done. 563. Before his re-election is he to enter into an undertaking to do some particular thing ? — Not necessarily to succeed in discovering, but to make an attempt to discover a certain truth Avhich has not yet been discovered. 564. {Prof. Smith.) To work out some point which has not been worked out ? — Yes. 565. {Chairman.) Will you hand in your draft scheme, Avhich may Ije taken as read. ( The witness delivered in the same.) 566. The next point in your paper is as to the throwing open of headships; y'on say “if this is Avithin the scope of the Commission,” I believe that it is within the scope of the Commission under the Act of Parliament. It is not strictly speaking a part of the question of university requirements, but it may be associated Avith it in your mind ? — I AV'as under the impression that the Act of Parliament appointing the Commissioners did not admit of the clerical restriction on headships being removed in cases Avhere it exists. 567. It does noAV I think. — What I would suggest is this, that Avhen a headship falls vacant a college shall be at liberty to elect the most distinguished man Avho is willing to take the place, whether he be a university man or not, and still more Avhether he be a member of the college or not. In this Avay, as no doubt is known to the Commissioners, Harvey, the discoverer of the circulation of the blood, Avas invited to become Avarden of Merton, and I believe accepted the jiost. I would set colleges free to make elections of that kind. The headships represent roughly another 30,000/. a year ; there are 20 of them, and the UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 83 average value of a headship I think has been determined at l,(j()0/. a year. Tliose would be the great prizes for persons who had been successfully engaged in a career of research and study, and who had become in middle life eminent; so that the whole of the money which I propose to give to learning and research would be 60,000/., namely, 30,000/. from non-resident fellow- ships, and 30,000/. from headships. Of course, in some cases the head, although he might in all cases be a layman, would be a clergyman. According to my scheme it would be a very desirable thing that a man like Dr. Pusey or Professor Lightfoot should be elected to the headship of a college ; or again, a man like Professor Gardiner the historian, or Professor Huxley, or any person of first-rate eminence. 568. That seems to assume that the duties of the head of a college are not such as to interfere with research ? — I do not think that they are. 569. (^Prof. Smith.) Do you think that the duties of a professor are such as to interfere with research ? — Certainly, if by a professor you mean a man per- forming, as at j)resent is the case, the duties of a college tutor under a different name. 570. {Mr. Bernard.) I do not understand that you exclude the class of professors from the hope of becoming the heads of colleges ? — No, I do not. I would throw open the headship of colleges to the whole kingdom ; and I should even go so far as not to restrict it to Englishmen. I believe that some centuries ago the master of Balliol was a Greek ; and we might often do well to invite persons of great distinction from the continent, or who had come to live amongst us, to accept that position. 571. Are there any colleges whose statutes now throw open the headship as widely as you propose ? Whether they throw them open to foreigners or not, 1 do not know. I presume tliat the statutes of Balliol must do so, otherwise they could not have elected a foreigner; and the statutes of Merton must throw it open to all persons, whether members of colleges or not, otherwise they could not have elected Harvey. In most cases the head must be a clergyman. 572. {Chairman.) As I understand you, you jjro- pose to enable such colleges as are not now able to do so to make a perfectly free choice of their head ? — Yes ; I should not go further than that. 573. You do not anticipate that that would lead to a very large selection of persons eminent for research, do you ? — I think that it would in the course of time. I do not think that it would be just to prescribe to a college what sort of person they should elect ; that I think would be too great an interference with vested rights; but it might be possible (although I am not at all sanguine that it would be desirable to carry into effect such a provision) that the university should also have some voice in the election to a headship. 574. {Earl of Rede sdale.) What interference would you give to the university in the election to a head- ship ? — That the university should approve the election to the headship, or that some officer of the university, some professor, or the vice-chancellor, or some dele- gate from the Board of Studies, should be one of the electors; that would not give him a controlling vote, but would enable him to represent the university and its requirements upon the Board of Electors to the headship. 575. Surely you would not give to the university the power that where a college had elected a fit man, they should say, “ We think that you should find a fitter man ” ? — I should not proceed in that way, but should merely recognise them in the election. I should say that the university should have a voice in the selection, not a controlling voice, but a voice ; that one of the most distinguished professors, or one of the most distinguished members of Convocation, or some especial person, should sit upon the electing board of the college, and state who he thinks the new head should be. I do not think that this is an important point, and I merely suggest it. 576. ( Chairman.) Your next point is as to the duties of tutors and readers on the one hand, and of Q 6223, students upon the other, and as to professors being a connecting linE between tbe two orders ? — That was merely to bring my idea of a studentship into relation with the rest of the university. 577. {Dr. Bellamy.) One of these proposed student- ships ? — Yes ; what their relation to the other offices of the university and of the colleges should be. 578. {Chairman.) Have you already explained that point or not ? — No ; I will do so. It seems to me that the position of a tutor of a college requires to be much more defined in our imagination than it has hitherto been. I see that in some of the proposals in the Oxford University Gazette it is said that readers may be tutors, and may be college lecturers, and so on. Now it appears to me that the business of a tutor in a college is very much more disciplinary than educational ; or rather 1 should say, in correction, that it is conversant very much more with education, meaning by education the training of the intellectual and moral character, than with direct instruction. I think that what distinguishes the English universities from foreign universities, and from Scotch universi- ties, is the education of the character which a man gets in them. That is certainly what has attracted the notice of the most distinguished writers upon educational subjects in Germany; Dollinger, Von Sybel, and lately Wiese, have all commented upon the great importance of our college system as pre- paring a man for life. I think, besides this, that the English parent generally requires for his children some such disciplinary training. The position of a tutor is therefore very much what the position of a house-master in a public school is; his business is generally to look after the undergraduates, and to take care that they do not waste their time, and do not get into mischief. Besides that, he has to super- intend the studies of the passmen and to teach them ; but I do not think that he ought to have anything to do, and indeed he is having less and less to do already, with the instruction of the classmen ; that is done very much more by tbe readers, or rather I should say by the “ amalgamated ” lectures. It is pro- bably known to you that the two or three lecturers existing in each of different colleges are amalgamated together for the purposes of teaching in the higher subjects, so that one man lectures to the under-graduates of several colleges instead of lecturing to a smaller number belonging exclusively to his own. The col- leges, therefore, for pur{)oses of instruction are now broken up into a series of smaller or larger groups. That system has borne fruit in making the lectures better, and it has not entirely superseded the personal, private, and class instruction oi the students which is required even for classmen. An “ amalgamated ” lecturer is not, like a professor, necessarily a man who does not know his students by sight, or does not know them by name ; he in many cases, owing to the small number of colleges which belong to a particular group, can come into contact with them personally and directly, and can stimulate and help them in their work, and explain difficulties to them, which a reader for the whole university cannot do. In the proposals which have been laid before you by the Hebdomadal Council, and by the professors, it seems to me to be proposed to ignore this amalgamation which has been gradually growing up, and to substitute for the amal- gamated lecturer a university reader. Now there is very little doubt that if this were done you would be knocking on the head a system which has grown up naturally, and would be creating a new and artificial system upon paper ; the men whom you would have to make your readers would be tbe same men who now are the amalgamated lecturers ; the difference would be that they would lecture to all the men in tbe university studying a particular subject instead of lecturing to a limited number of men ; they would consequently be enabled to give more lectures, and would not be able to look over essays, to superintend their pupils’ work, and to instruct them privately. 579. Then that would lead to a greater distance between the proposed reader and the undergraduate ? E OXFORD. C. E. a. B. Applaton, Esq., D.C.L. 24 Oct. 1877. OXFORD. C. E. C. 13. \ppleton. Esq., D.C.L. 24 Oct. 1877. 34 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION t — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. — Yes, owing to the fact that the reader would read to the wliole university, and would have so large a class as not to be able to give individual instruction ; whereas the amalgamated lecturer already existing, although lecturing beyond his own college, does not lecture to so large a number of men as to be unable to give individual instruction. That I think is a very important point. 580. {Prof. Smith.) If I understand rightly, you wish the system of combined lectures to continue, and the persons who give those lectures also to do the l>rivate tutorial work with the men in their own col- lege ? — No, I do not quite mean that ; they should give a certain amount of private instruction supple- mentary to their lectures, such as they now do. I would let the system go on growing as it has hitherto grown ; I w'ould not interfere wdth it by legislative action. I would give some sort of university recogni- tion to the amalgamated lecturers Avho now exist ; but I do not see any reason why the funds which may be set free by the suppression of non-resident fellowships, or in any other way, by the contribution of colleges to the university, should be paid to a new order of readers who would merely be the old amalgamated lecturers under a new name, and with less satisfactory means in their hands for performing their functions. 581. {Chairman.) I understa)Kl you to suggest that the system of amalgamated lectures, as you call it, is one which has arisen naturally, and has an elasticity which would find its proper limits and would not extend beyond them ? — Yes. 582. And that within the limits to which a j)ar- ticular combination of lectures would naturally extend, other combinations would be formed to supply any want beyond ? — Yes. 583. And that those advantages would not be ob- tained by substituting readerships for the whole univer- sity? — No. There is another point to which I wish to call attention, namely, that in the recommendation of the Board of Studies for the first public examination it is said that the readers should receive a stipend of 400/. a year, and should take no fees. This would be to introduce a new eleemosynary element into our university education which is now entirely uncalled for. At present the amalgamated lecturer lives in two ways ; he has his fellowship for the most part, and when he has not his fellowship he lives upon the fees Avhich he gets from his pupils. What the Board of Studies ])roposes is that the pupil should pay no fee, and that the whole amount should come from the university ; this seems to me a violation of the accepted principles of political economy. 584. {Mr. Bernard.) You suggest that there should he a university recognition of the lecturer : what is the sort of recognition which you think should be given ? — I do not think that I can give it any name, but I think that the vice-chancellor should call toge- ther the readers and professors at the beginning of the academical year and should preside at tlieir settlement and parcelling out of the work of the year among themselves. 585. {Prof. Smith.) By readers do you mean the proposed readers ? — No, the amalgamated lecturers, or I will substitute the word “ combined” for “amalga- mated.” 586. ( Chairman.) I think that you have already covered the ground which is indicated by the next head in your paper, namely, mode of election to the studentships, forming a bond between the colleges and the university ; — joint election ? — I have not quite finished my answer to the former question with re- spect to the different orders of officers in the university. I have gone through the tutors and the “ combined ” lecturers. I now come to the new order of students. 587. {Mr. Bernard.) The readers are to be simply combined lecturers ? — Y’’es. I say, let there be no readers ; let the combined system go on as at presqnt. 588. The tutor acting as a lecturer in combination ? — The lecturer acting in combination. Besides tutors and lecturers there would be in each college a certain number of persons on the governing body who would have a partly collegiate and partly university character, namely, the new order of students which I j)ropose to create. This new order of students, although they would be a new creation if the Commissioners should create them, would be the I’epresentatives of the old fellows of colleges modified according to modern re- quirements. It has now, I think, been proved histo- rically that fellowships were given for the purposes of maintaining learned leisure, not as sinecures, but for the purpose of enabling men to devote themselves to a career of study. They have dropped out of that function in the decline of learning in the I7th and I8th centuries, and now in the revival of education they have been absorbed into the educational system. I do not propose to undo that which has been done in this way ; I only suggest that what can be spared after the educational system shall have been completed and made as perfect as j)ossible, should be made to revert to the original intention of the founders. There would thus be three orders, namely, the tutor and the lec- turer, who are engaged solely in instruction and education ; there would be the students ; there would be the eminent heads of colleges who would represent the successful extension of knowledge : and there would be a fifth order, namely, the professors, who would at once give the higher instruction and also would devote a portioirof their time, as is proposed in almost all these reports which have been laid before you by the Board of Studies — to . increasing and ex- tending the limits of knovrledge. They would there- fore form a bond of union between those who are purely engaged in research, the heads and students, and those who are purely engaged in education, the tutors and lecturers. 589. ( Chairman.) Upon the next head I think you have already stated your views, namely, that the pro- posed readerships should not supersede the system of combined lectures ? — That has ah'cady come out. 590. The next point is the mode of election to the studentships forming a bond between the colleges and the university; — joint election. Have you suffi- ciently explained your views upon that point? — In the main I have, but there is one point remaining; I am opposed upon the whole to anything which should seem to be a taking away of what belongs to the colleges, namely, this amount of 30,000/., and using it solely for the subsidy of university persons. I would let the student whom I propose to create remain as he is now, where he accidentally exists, a member of the governing body of one or other of the colleges, 551. Then in suhstance it would be an appropria- tion of fellowshi])s ?■ — It would be an appropriation of fellowships, but the fellowships which had been trans- formed into studentships would be elected to not solely by the colleges, but also by the university, and they would thus form a university element in the govern- ing body of the colleges. For they would owe their election partly to the colleges ; and partly to the university. 592. The last point you seem to have already dealt with, namely, conditions of eligibility to a studentship. “ Two ways of endowing study, first, paying for mate- “ rials and special work ; secondly, maintenance and “ career for the student ” ? — That heading touches the very point with which I began, namely, the divorce which exists at present between a liberal education and scientific research, in whatever branch. I would not give studentships paid for out of the old fellowship fund to persons who had not received a liberal educa- tion, I would not get down specialists from London, who knoAv nothing beyond their speciality, and give them studentships. I think that that would be a very great mistake. Professor Story-Maskelyne, in his letter of November 19th, 1873, speaks of certain “ chemists to whom this great science,” (viz, chemistry) “ has stood in the place of all the higher education.” Now there are many chemists of that kind whom I constantly meet in London, there are many historians and philologists of that kind, whose specialities have stood in the place of a liberal education. Those persons may be very useful as occasional assistants to UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COIVIMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 35 tlie university, iuul the ex[)cnscs of tlie materials, et him give a lecture from time, or as many lectures as he likes, but do not let him he paid for it. 600. You would pre«;lude him by express ])rovision from increasing his income by teaching, but would not preclude him from increasing his income by giving professional advice or evidence as an expert ? — That is a matter of detail. I would not allow him to attach himself as a paid adviser to a commercial firm ; I would allow him to give occasional advice, but not to become a paid servant of a firm. 601. It is precisely because cases of the kind to which you have referred are so common that J wish to direct your attention to the great difficulties wdiich lie in the way of endowing offices of a scientific kind without attaching special duties to them. To explain what I mean, I will not refer at jrresent to those branches of knowledge which you have described as baving no mercantile value, but I would remind you that many of the branches of knowledge w'hich are growing the most rapidly and in which research has the greatest attractions, are precisely those in which a reputation once acquired can be turned into money at a very rapid rate. That is the position which I wish you to tell us how' you w’ould meet ? — I would meet it in this w'ay : If a man to whom we give from 200/. up to 800/. or 1 ,000/. a year for work- ing with us sees his way to making from 2,000/. to 10,000/. a year by working for a firm in Manchester, I would say, “ Go to Manchester, but we cannot pay you any longer; you leave us for them.” He would then choose between the two; he would choose between the advantages of a university career and the purely monetary advantages of a commercial career. 602. You are probably aware that a great part of the considerable sums which are gained by scientific men are gained not by establishing a permanent con- nexion w'ith any particular firm, but simply by a kind of consulting practice, by being ready occasionally, and from time to time to give advice and assistance upon important questions. Would you forbid that occasional practice or not? — I would no more I'orbid a “student” or a professor from giving occasional help to a firm than I would forbid him from sitting on a Government commission; but I would prevent, if I could, a student or a professor from being either formally or in effect a salaiied servant of a firm as I would prevent a student or a professor from being a salaried servant of the Government. 603. There is one other class of questions which I wish to put to you. Is it not a fact that almost all the researches which have advanced knowledge have been hitherto effected by persons who have been to a certain extent charged with the duty of teaching ?— That is the case in Germany, and may be accounted for in that country, but I think that it is not the case in England. In Germany the learned class is very much larger than the learned class in England. Consequently the lectures which are gjven by the professors are very much more in the higher parts of the subjects than they are in this country. A German professor does not teach the elements, and does not prepare a student for examinations as he does in this country, he therefore can combine his research with his teaching. I have myself attended the lectures at more than one German university, and there I could see that in some cases at least the ])rofessor brought forward, stmight out of his own laboratory', so to E 2 OXFORD. C. E. C. li. Appleton, Esc D.C.L. 24 Oct. 1877. 36 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. C. E. C. B. Appleton, Esq., D.C.L. 24 Oct. 1877. Bev. D. r. Chase, M.A. speak, the work, and gave it to us regardless of whetlier it was what we wanted or not. On the contrary, in this country T cannot hut tliink that the best and most permanent work lias been dona not by peo|ile who have been engaged in (lie profession of education, but by private persons. Tlie greatest Iiistory of Greece was written by a banker. Tlie two leading thinkers of this and the last generation, Mr. Mill and Mr. Spencer, were neither of them educa- tional persons. Mr. Darwin is not and never has been, an educational person. I might mention a great number of persons of lesser magnitude, such as the indefatigable clerks in tbe Record Office, who con- tribute from year to year most valuable detailed investigations into history ; these are none of them educational jiersons. (iOl. Would y ou say that the duties assigned by tbe universiiy' of Oxford at present to its professors are comparable in amount, excejit in one or two special instances, to those assigned to a professor in Ger- many ? — They are very different. As Mr. Ogle says, in the pa-sage which I have already quoted, a pro- fessor at Oxford has very much more to do of the work of a tutor and of a private tutor than a professor in Germany. The professor in Germany represents his subject, and bis teaching is subsidiary to that re- jiresentation. On tbe other hand, in Oxford (and it lias been shown in the election to professorships in Oxford) if two men are trying for the same proFessor- shi[), one of whom is distinguished in research and in writing books, and the other is distinguished in teaching, the man who is distinguished in teaching is the man whom the university elects and not the man who is distinguished in research, because the exigencies of the educational system are such that it is teaching which tbe professor must look forward to as his main duty. 605. {Mr. Bcr/iard.) If the teacher were to any extent relieved from the duty of individual teaching, could he, according to your view, satisfy your idea of a student ? — I have already said that I should conceive that a professor, if relieved of some of his class teaching and his individual instruction, should be able to devote some portion of his time to original research, hut it does not seem to me that he would be free from the danger of letting the research go to the wall and indulging himself in what is alnays an ex- ceedingly attractive occupation, that of teaching. 605. Why would he be in a worse position in that respect than a teacher in Germany ? — ^He woidd be in a w orse position because tbe undergraduates in this country are not so advanced as the undergraduates in Germany, and a smaller number of them are prepared to go into the higher portions of the subject. There are a very much larger number in Germany of under- graduates who go to the professors’ lectures, who themselves intend to become savants and to be pro- fessors and teachers of some kind, than in England ; a large number of undergraduates in Oxford, for in- stance, are men who are training or preparing for the ordinary occupations of life. 607. If the definite duty of teaching wmre imposed upon a man, w'ould it in that way prevent his being a student if tbe teaching expected from him were of a higher class? — It would not necessarily do so; but I maintain that it is impossible to set the standard of The witness The Reverend D. P. Chase, M.A., 615. {Chairman.) Will you have the goodness to present your views lespectipg the halls in the ])atron- age of the chancellor of the university? — ’Of St. Edmund Hall it is not necessary to treat; although under the chancellor’s visitation it is still attached to Queen’s College. That society has now the power of eler;ting its pa-lncipal to a fellowship, and will, under the commi'^sion, have the opportunity of making further changes if it sees cause to do so. My expe- rience as vice-chancellor of a hall for more than nine years, and as principal of the same hall for more teaching too high. Even in this university at present with some of our professors it has been found that when they lectured in the higher portions of their subject they were not able to attract an audience; and I have also heard of a case where a lecturer has endeavoured to make a subject comjdete and has in- formed his pupils that the particular parts of the subject wdiich were necessary to make it complete were not necessary foi' tbe examinations, and tbe pupils have left him while those parts w'erc being lectured upon. I am speaking of a particular instance of that nature. The examination system and the educational system in this university have become so engrossing that it is impossible for a professor to do otherwise than to lecture up to the examinations, and if he does more, if he lectures on the higher parts of his subject, as he would do in Germany, he lectures to empty benches. 60‘<. Is there anything at all similar to your scheme to be found either in Germany oi- elsewhere ? — There is; in Germany they have a certain number of places called “ Academisebe Stellungen,” w hich are given to the most distinguished men ; they have not enoiuih money to give them to any but the most distinguished men. I believe that Grimm held a position of that kind. You may also be aware that in Baltimore, in the United States, a new university has lately been set up, called the “Johns Hopkins University,” with a large amount of money. Professor Gillman, w ho is the head of that university, came to England and consulted with a great number of persons, with my- self among others, as to the principles on wdiich it should be set up, and he has started a system of student fellowships, such as I have described, to wdiich persons are elected without any teacliing duties whatever, simply to enable them to carry on researches in studies with which they are most con- versant, and it W'as only this summer that I asked Professor Sylvester, an English professor, who has gene over there and is on the staff of the university, w diether this system, which had been so much suspected in this country, and which it has been thought might possibly break down, had succeeded so far as it had gone at Baltimore, and he said that it had succeeded exceedingly well. 609. How far has it gone ? — It has only been in existence for two or three years. 610. The “academical positions” lo which you have referred are, I suppose, very few ? — Yes, because the universities have not endowments; they are supported out of the taxes to a large extent. 611. And those positions are given to men of mature age? — They are. 612. {Prof. Smith.) Are you acquainted with the / institution of the Hautes Etudes in France ? — Yes, to some extent. 613. Thai is analogous to what you propose to do with the young men in your scheme? — T'es, except that in the Ecole des hautes Etudes the professor receives either no emolument or a very small emolu- ment. 614. I refer to their taking young men and giving them a maintenance while they are engaged in original researches under the auspices of the professors. That is a part of their system ? — Yes. withdrew. Principal of St. Mary Hall, examined. than nineteen years, has at. the least given me ample opportunity for forming my opinions, and m ly be held to excuse me for making the suggestions which I am about to make. “Halls” are institutions peculiar to Oxford. They are correctly described in the Oxford University Calendar, as “ mansions for the “ reception of students, who live in them under disci- “ pline and instruction, and pass through the course of “ study to their several degrees precisely^ in the same “ way as other students who reside in colleges. But the “ term ‘ Hall ’ implies also the society of students UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 37 “ belonging to cacli ; and in this sense there is a very “ important dihercnce between Imlis and colleges, inas- “ much ns halls are not corporate bodies and have no “ endowments for fellows ; and all the property which “ they own is held in trust for them by the university.” To this description I have only to add that neither arc the princi])als of halls corporations sole. Of these halls there are at present rcMuaining four. The chancellor of the university is visitor of all. They are: 1. St. Edmund Hall, the principal of which is ap- j)ointed hy the provost and fellows of Queen’s College and is endowed with a benefice. The clianccllor of the university aiipoints (under a form of election by the “ aularcs” resembling co/iffe d' elire) the principals of— 2. St, Mary Hall, originally at- tached to Oriel College ; 3. St. Alban Hall, at one time attached to Merton College ; 4. New Inn Hall. The total accommodation for students in addition to rooms for tutors, lecture-s f*ic., within the walls of the fhree halls last mentioned is 51 sets of rooms, Sr, Mary Hall having 25, New Inn Hall 11, and St. Alban Mall 15. Under recent legislation, howevci’, there is almost no limit to the number of students who may, while belonging to a college or hall, keep terms in lodgings. Only New Inn Hall and St. Mary Hall have capacity of enlargement. On the site of New Inn Hall thei-e is space for the erection of at least 20 additional sets of rot'ins. St. Mary Hall includes at present two buildings partly devoted to offices, but containing five of the sets of rooms enumerated above, which are rented by the principal, one from Oriel College, the other from a lessee of Magdalen College. It is tlesinible that these buildings, which complete the quadrangle on the northern side, should be per manently attached to the hall. There is also a block of buildings abutting on the hall on part of the western, the whole northern, and part of the north- eastern sides, which might be conveniently added to the hall. Of these buildings the greater part are houses and shops, the property of Oriel College; one is the property of the feoffees of the parish of St. Mary the Virgin ; the remainder is held by lessees of Magdalen College. On the site of this block might he built, or the buildings themselves might be con- verted into, at least 25 sets of rooms. The site of New Inn Hall is quite isolate. 1. Those of St. Mary Hall and of St. Alban Hall are contiguous to Oriel College and to Llerton College respectively. These halls occupy an inferior position in the university. With very rare exceptions no man ever enters at a hall who can gain admission into or remain at a college. The causes of this inferiority are, first, their poverty (which of itself counts for something), secondly, the evils which their poverty entails. I. Their poverty. In no one of these halls is there any endow- ment of the principal. Only in St. Mary Hall is there any endowment for students. II. The evils which this poverty entails. In 'the Aularian statutes, until about 1857, a provision existed by which any prin- cipal of a hall, retaining a fellowship for more than six months after his appointment, forfeited the prin- cipalship. Not only was this provision abrogated and any fellow enabled to accept the principalship of a hall but in many of the ordinances power was given to colleges to elect to, or retain in, a fellowship, by two-thirds of the votes of the head and all the fellows, any principal of a hall within the university (not being a private hall), though married, and though otherwise in ordinary cases ineligible. The fellowship is tenable only so long as the princip.alship shall be retained. I was thus enabled to accept the principal- ship of St. Mary Hall in 1857.; and my college retained me in my fellowship after my marriage in 1859. This circumstance has enabled me to carry out plans for the improvement of the hall which otherwise I could not have attempted. But it must be remembered that the college was in no way bound to extend to me this indulgence ; and it remains there- fore true that the revenues proper of the three halls in the patronage of the chancellor of the university are derived exclusively from payments made by the students. From this source have to he provided : OXFORD. 1. The income of the principal and other officer or officers; 2. The repairs of the fabric; 3. The ex- penses of the establishment, which are of course Chage^.A. heavy in an inverse proportion to the number of the Oct. 1877. students. The students resorting to these halls are: ’ I. Such as matriculate at them, or migrate to them voluntarily; II. Such as migrate to them involuntarily. The first class consists either of unattached students, or of men who cannot gain admission into any college because (1) either they are married; (2) or they have passed the age fixed by colleges for the admission of stu.lents; (3) or they have not the proficiency required by colleges ; (4) or they are unable from poverty to keep continuous residence. Such men commonly, supporting themselves by their own labour and saving money, come up and keep terms whenever circumstances will permit them. The second class consists of (1) those who have failed, whether from idleness or from incapacity, to pass the public exam- inations of the university within the period prescribed by their colleges ; (2) those who have committed such offences against discipline as, in the judgment of their college.s, render their removal desirable, yet are acknowledged not to be so grave as to call for or to justify their dismissal or withdrawal from the univer- sity. I. and II. are received by St. Alban Hall, and by New Inn Hall ; I. (only) by St. Mary Hall since the year 1857. In so far as this inferiority arises from the low standard of attainments required for admission into a hall, it is not entirely removable. No conside- rate person would, I think, wish to deprive estimable, hard-working, though dull or backward men, of the opportunity thus afforded to them of reaping, according to their capacity, the benefits of an university educa- tion, still less to shut the door against men of maturer years, or against married men, who jrerhaps cannot conveniently be received into colleges where the students are quite young. Still it deserves to be seriously considered whether, now that any student may belong to the university, without membership of any college or hall, provided he satisfy the delegates of unattached students “ that he is likely to derive “ educational advantage from becoming a matriculated “ member of the university,” these halls are as much needely to colleges ? 689. Do you mean to imply that any college would ever consent to receive a student under these circum- stances ? — I am aware of one case at any rate (and have heard, though I cannot vouch for the truth of the report, of one or two others) in which a member of a college, being of good character, but dismissed for not passing university examinations, has been re- ceived at another college. 690. {Chairmuii.) Could you tell the Commissioners ryhat is the ordinary or average cost of education and living to a student in St. Edmund Hall ? — In the very short time that I had last night I tried to calculate, and I have also asked one or two of the {jresent members of the hall, and I feel quite certain that many of the students do not spend 100/. a year. One of them told me this morning his annual expenses, not including of course clothes or travelling, varied from between 87/. and 92/. for battells, tuition, coals, washing, and everything. There are, for instance, in this last year several whose battells have not amounted to 70/. I do not say that that is quite the average ; the average would be a little above that generally, but it shows that a man, without really separating himself in a marked way from the others, can, as far as battells go, live under 70/. Then I have found out from inquiries that the extras, such as groceries, fees to servants, and college subscriptions, can be included for another 20/., so that I should say that a man might certainly live for 100/. a year, or even less, and that some have actually done so for under 90/. 691. Is that, so far as your knowledge goes, less than is possible in any college in the university P I do not know that I can speak from knowledge, because I have been so completely mlconnected with college management for some years. 692. Take Queen’s, which is associated with you ; could the same thing be done at Queen’s ? — I have had nothing whatever to do with the management of the college for more than 12 years, and therefore I should not have a right to express any opinion. 693. {3fr. Bernard.) Am I right in suiqjosing from your statement that the smallness of a society has some positive advantages as regards the reception and the discipline of poor men ? — I should think so decidedly, because, as I think I stated, there are not the same temptations to rivalry in anything like extravagance or entertainments. 694. It is not thei’efore because those societies are small that you would think it desirable to suppress them if we had the power to suppress them — No, I think certainly not. In many respects I think that the smallness is a distinct advantage to a certain class of men. 695. But you think it desirable that they should have some endowment ? — Yes, and I do not think that is inconsistent with what I have said before. 696. {Dr. Bellamy.) That might tend to raise the number, might it not ? — That might tend to raise the number, it is true, but the size of the buildings would limit that. 697. {Chairman.) Do you think it would be useful to endow' any considerable number of exhibitions for jioor students in the halls, and unattached students ? — I should be in favour of that myself. 698. To be given by competition upon examination, with some test of poverty ? — That is what I should have thought. 699. What kind of test of poverty would it occur to you to suggest ? — I do not know that I could answer that (juestion without reflection. I should rather refer to the case of Bible clerkships as they have lately been given in the large colleges, I believe. 700. Do you know wdiat the usual test there is — No, I do not know any more than this, that I believe the candidates have to satisfy the head of the college that their circumstances are such that they really need help, and then after a certain number have been admitted through that test the examination becomes competitive. 701. Siqiposing that such exhibitions were esta- blished, would it be best to make them exhibitions for the unattached students and the students in halls or colleges generally, with the condition that those who succeeded at the examination and qualified themselves fully must satisfy this test as to poverty? — I should think certainly that a test should be required. UNIVKKSITY OF OXFORD COMBIISSION : MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 43 702. Do you think that the test should be applied before they were admitted to competilion, or after they had got tlie exhibition ? — I should have thought that it would be preferable to subject them to the test first. There is a precedent I think in the Abbott scholar- ships. Two examiners are appointed to inrjuire into that, distinct from the three examiners who test the intellectual fitness of the candidates. 703. You do not think it would have any tendency to check a siifHcieiit number of competitors coming forward if you required that as a preliminary con- dition ? — I do not think that that is the experience in the case of the Bible clerkships. 704. {Mr. Bernard.) Is there any reason why such exhibitioners should not go to a college as well as to a hall or become unattached students ? — No, I think not. In one of these enclosures there is a note by Mr. Monro, vice-provost of Oriel College, that there ought to be some security such as a certificate from their college or hall that the college expenses of such exhibitioners continued to be moderate. That I think is important. 705. {Chairman.') Would it be a good thing in itself that a very poor student should go to a college where the general rate of expenditure was high ; that is to say, would it be good for that particular student in your judgment ? — I should have thought it would not, certainly. 706. {Dr. Bellamy^ Should you not say that it would be good for him, if he had moral strength enough to resist the temptation of spending ? — Possibly, but I do not see how such moral strength is to be tested beforehand. 707. {Mr. Bernard.) It is not always to be assumed, is it, that the general rate of expenditure in a college is high ? — No. The witness withdrew. The Rev. Edwtn Hatch, M.A. (Vice-Principal of St. Mary Hall), examined. 708. ( Chairman.) Will you be so good as to state to tbe Commission what you have to say with regard to the relation of the university to pass education in respect of, first, the provision for pass teaching ; and secondly, the provision for the payment of pass ex- aminers ? — I do not know to what extent I may assume that your Lordship and the Commissioners would take for granted that there must be some pro- vision in the university for pass education. I think that perhaps it may not be necessary to do more than express a very strong conviction that something more ought to be done in that direction than is done at present by the university. 709. At present, I suppose, in the colleges it is provided for sufficiently by college tuition, is it not - To a great extent it is provided for by college tuition, but there is a tendency for the best tutors in colleges to take another kind of tuition, the tuition of class- men, and to leave the pass tuition to a certain extent in the hands of younger and less experienced men. At certain colleges there is no doubt very ample and very excellent provision ; but on the whole my impression is that even under the college system the pass educa- tion is not so good as it should be. As one indication of that, and one ground for thinking as I do, 1 would point out the very large proportion of failures in the pass examinations of the university. My impression is that if the pass education in the colleges were better than it is, the number of failures, i.e., persons who are, as the phrase is, “ plucked” in the pass examina- tions, would be very much smaller than it is now. 710. How would you supplement that by university teaching ? — I would have on all important subjects of university teaching university teachers. I think that the case for such university teachers is especially strong, now that the university has admitted men as what are called technically unattached students. The doors are thrown open very wide. Anyone who shows that he wishes really to profit by the advantages of the place can come here. At the same time there is on the part of the university next to no provision whatever for his being taught. I say that without wishing to cast the very least slur upon the labours of the censors of unattached students. I believe that they do the very best they can, but at the same time the fact remains that there is no university provision whatever for teaching this large number of students who come to us. 711. The vice-chancellor told us, I ■ think, that till they pass their moderations two tutors are provided for that class by the university, but none after they pass moderations. Is that what you understand to be the case ? — I do not understand that to be a public provision made on the part of the university for all its students ; bat a private provision made by the censors of unattached students, which might be re- voked at their discretion. 712. {Prof. Smith.) That has only been begun this term, I understand ? — Yes, 713. {Chairtnan.) We understood from the vice- chancellor that no fund was provided by the univer- sity, that it depended upon the fees, but that there were at present appointed two tutors to teach them until their moderations, and that for some reason, which I do not think was very clearly explained, no provision was made for the interval between modei'a- tions and the final schools? — That no doubt would be much more difficult than the provision for the earlier period, on account of the large number of subjects which can be offered in the final examinations. The number of subjects offered in the first two examina- tions is limited to a very small number and it is easy to provide for them. If I may go back for one moment, the general view that I should like to express to the Commission is this, that, while un- attached students have an especially strong claim, they are not the only students for whom such pro- vision should be made. The university ought to make public provision for the teaching of all its pass students, because they form so large a part of those who go out into the world, who bear the university name, and who by virtue of their having degrees in the university are called to offices of im- portance and have a great deal of educational work to do. Although I perfectly recognise the importance of the view wdiich is entertained by some persons that the university should confine itself as far as possible to the highest kind of teaching, yet taking the fact as it stands that so lai’ge a proportion of the members of the university are what are called passmen, I venture to think that under any circumstances some public provision should be made for the teaching of passmen. 714. We should like to know what provision you would suggest ? — I should suggest the foundation of university teacherships ; that is to say, I would have persons appointed by the university to teach the subjects which the majority of students come here to learn. I would have those persons appointed by the university and paid by the university, appointed for a term of years by some recognised university authority. The detail might be a matter of dis- cussion ; but the particular detail which suggested itself to my mind was that either the professor of a particular study, for example, the professor of Greek, or the Board of Studies for the Classical School, should make the appointment of the teacher for five years, the appointment to be renewable for one or more periods ; that the university teacher shoidd be bound to lecture in what are commonly known as pass-subjects, and that it should be an instruction to him to lecture in such a way as would suit the capacities and the requirements of ordinary pass- students. P 2 OXFORD. Rev. £. Moore, B. D. 24 Oct. 1877. Rev. E. Hatch, M.A. 44 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, OXFORD. Rev. E. Hatch, M.A. 24 Oct. 1877. 715. What do you propose as to the attendance of passmen ; generally, I suppose they attend only those lectures which they are obliged to attend ? — No doubt. 716. Would you require men to declare whether they were going in as passmen or for honours in all the colleges, and if they were going in as passmen would you require them to attend those teachers? — I should not make it a matter of compulsion by any means, but I think provision should be made without com- pulsion. If a thoroughly good teacher were ap- pointed to teach, w ho otherwise would make a good income as a private tutor and be in demand as a private tutor, and who made it his business to teach men in the way in which private tutors do teach, there would be no necessity for any law compelling them to come to the lectures. 717. It must he individual teaching for passmen, or such teaching in classes as college tutors give, must it not ? — Yes, but of a better kind ; that is to say, better in this way ; I think it would not be difficult to find in the university men of considerable attain- ments who would be willing to devote themselves specially to that kind of teaching, and who would not, as a large proportion of college tutors do, make a dis- tinction between pass and class, and give their best thoughts rather to the classmen than to the pass- men. 718. What number of teachers do you suppose would be necessary for the purpose ? — I think that in the first instance it would not be necessary to have more of those university teachers than w'ould cover the main subjects of instruction, that is to say, there w’ould be one teacher of Greek and Latin, one teacher of mathematics, one teacher of logic, and of the kind of philosophy wdiich is required for the final schools, and possibly also a teacher of history of the kind which is required for the final schools. 719. Supposing that those lectures w'ere attended not only by the unattached students and students in halls but by passmen from the colleges, would not the number of students be much too great for a single lecturer in each subject to deal with ? — My impression is that ifa lecturer were a|)pointed to lecture in this way, and were remunerated on a sufficiently large scale, he would be able to divide his time precisely in the same way that a good private tutor, a good “coach’’ as he is called, would divide his time, and that he w ould have the same kind of efficiency. 720. Y'ou probably do not contemplate any large number of college passmen going voluntarily to such lectures, do you ? — I do not contemplate any large number, it might be a question as to how many there would be. 721. {Prof. Smith.) At any rate you do not con- template any private work with the men being done by the tutor? — No. 722. (Dr. Bellamy.) That it would be impossible for a tutor to undertake ? — Yes, to a great extent, except so far as an ordinary “ coach ” does now, but I regret that so large a part of the teaching of passmen is in the hands of persons wdio are not in any way recognised by the university, and I think that the university itself might properly undertake that work. 723. {Mr. Bernard.) I understood you to say that the pass teaching in colleges was defective ? — I think it is. 724. Y’’ou w'ould therefore think it desirable that the passmen in the colleges should attend those university teachers as well as the unattached students and memhers of halls ? — Certainly to a great extent. My impression is that the institution of university teachers of this kind would tend very much indeed to raise the level of pass education throughout the university, even though a large proportion of the members of the colleges did not attend the lectures. 725. {Chairman.) Is it your idea that the class for which those teachers would be provided primarily would be the unattached students, but that power should be given to all students upon some reasonable terms to attend ? And do you think that if that w'ere done the character of the lectures w'ould cither attract pass students from colleges or raise the education of pass students within colleges? — Y"es, but in establish- ing those teachers I should be very sorry to see them established in name for the unattached students. I think it nnadvisable that the university should recognise that class as a separate and distinct class more than is absolutely necessary fur disciplinary purposes. 726. With regard to colleges the attendance upon some lectures is required from all their members, is it not ? — To a great extent it is compulsory. 727. Do not you think that it is in itself a sound principle that the unattached students should have some instruitlion provided for them wdiich they should be required to attend ? — Y"es. I am not clear about the requirement to attend, because the needs of unattached students vary so very largely, that is to say, so large a proportion (as far as I can learn) of the unattached students do not come here with the wish to take a degree, but to profit by the university in some Other way. 728. {Prof. Smith.) YMu might arrange, might you not, that they should be as a rule required to attend the lectures provided for them unless the censors of the unattached students excused them ? — Yes, some regulation of that kind might be adopted. 729. ( Chairman^) I should like to ask you a question with regard to students generally ; would it in your judgment be a good thing that it should be required of students generally to attend lectures upon those subjects in which positive ignorance is dis- creditable ; for instance, supposing there were, as has been suggested by some of the university, a professor- ship of practical mechanics and civil engineering, in which the arts most in use would be the subject of lectures, would it be a good thing to require attendance upon a certain course of those lectures from every one who goes in for a degree, or upon a course (say) of English history? — I am one of those who woukl be in favour of adding to the number of compulsory pass subjects ; but I am not one of those who are in favour of compelling students to seek instruction in those subjects. I would make the examination the test of w'hat their attainments were. 730. You think that upon such subjects as those which I have mentioned it would be better to make some minimum of knowledge a sine qua «owfor a degree than to require attendance upon a course of lectures ? — Certainly I think so. 731. You think that it would be a good thing to make some elementary knowledge of such subjects necessary for every degree ? — I am not j>repared to say at this moment wdiat particular subjects, but there are certain subjects, your Lordship has mentioned one, English history for example, which I should add to the class of compulsory subjects, of which there is only one example at present in the university, viz., divinity. 732. They need not take that up, but either that or a substitute is required of them? — Anyone who objects to an examination in divinity can choose a substitute from a small number of selected subjects. 733. You would hesitate to say the same thing of an elementary knowledge of the arts ? — I should hardly be prepared at this moment to define precisely the particular subjects outside one or two which I should put in that category. 734. What is your opinion with regard to the relation of the university to pass education in respect of the provision for the payment of pass examiners ? — My own impression is that the pass examinations are in some respects not in a satisfactory state. The examiners are not sufficiently well paid to induce them in certain cases to give up other employments. The examiners are too often changed ; and the number of jiersons who are pass teachers in the university is not sufficiently large to enable a good selection to be made with so many changes, and with the great drawback of the insufficient amount of pay. The suggestion which I have to offer to the Commissioners is that it might be desirable, in considering the purposes to UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 45 wliich fellowships may be applied, and the offices with whicli fellowships may be held, to enact that examiner- ships sliould be offices with which fellowships should be held. This of course would require an arrangement with the university, that a certain proportion of the examiners in certain subjects should be permanent or quasi permanent. My impression is that the great part of the difficulty which exists at present, especially with regard to the variableness of the standard, arises from the fact of the frequent changes. And I should cover both the points which I have mentioned by arranging with the university that, for example, one examiner out of three should be appointed, not for a year and a half or two years, but for a period of five years, and should be re-eligible for another period of five years, and possibly more than that ; and that any person who held one of those quasi permanent ex- aminerships should during that time be as eligible to hold a fellowship as a person who was engaged in teaching. 7.S5. Does that apply to the pass examiners only ? — I am not prepared to say how far the same difficulty does not exist with regard to the class examinations, and on that point I do not propose to offer any remarks to the Commission. 736. The university now appoints two different sets of examiners for passmen and classmen ? — Yes quite different. There is this point of distinction between class and pass examiners, that there is a certain amount of honour and glory, if I may say so, in examining: for a class, and that it suits the tastes of the best tutors here, and that consequently the same difficulty in finding the best examiners does not, I believe, exist. Hut with regard to pass examinations there is a certain amount of difficulty in finding the best and most competent men to undertake a very laborious work to which very little honour and glory are attached, and which, therefore, not being paid for in reputation, has to be paid for in solid eash. 737. If you have permanent examiners for a long time together, the system of examination will become pretty well ascertained, but in the case of passmen I suppose that objection is not a very practical one ? — 1 should be very sorry indeed to see a permanent board of examiners. What I should like to see is the con- tinuity of examination kept up by having a minority of the examining board of a quasi permanent character. In the examining board, for example, I would have three appointed as they are now from year to year, and one quasi permanent examiner. As it is, as a matter of fact, sometimes the whole body of examiners are changed from year to year. For example there is a board of six examiners who are appointed to examine for responsions ; half the number go out of office every six months; there are sometimes changes in the interval ; and it consequently some- times happens that more than half the examining board are new to their work. I consider that to be with regard to pass examinations a very distinct evil. 738. {Dr. Bellamy^ Would you suggest to the Commission that they should apply the powers of the Act to such details as the appointment of examiners ? — Yes. My impression is that there are few points upon which reform is more urgently needed. Whether for good or for evil the examination system has taken a great hold upon the country. But the regulations of the university as to the appointment and remuneration of examiners, who are of course the keystone of the whole system, remain practically the same as they were when the system was in its infancy, and when the conditions of university life were extremely different. The examiners now are almost as. important as the professors. And I think they ought to be remunerated not at the rate at which they were remunerated some years ago, as if the payment were a slight appendage to their college stipend, but that the remuneration of a certain part of the examiners should be a substantial remuneration, not, as at present, 60f. or 70/. a year, but enough to procure the services of the most com- petent men, and in some cases to retain them per- manently. 739. {Chairman.') Y’’our next point is the relation of the university to poor students. What have you to state upon that subject ? — On that point the only evidence which I wish to offer to the Commission is in support of a memorial which was very largely signed in Oxford before the Bill was passed, to the effect that it is undesirable to encourage unattached students as such by founding exhibitions or scholar- ships tenable by unattached students as such. The view which I venture to express is that it would be much better to found a number of what might perhaps be call “bursaries,” to be placed at the disposal of a university board ; that the amount to be given to any single holder of those bursaries should not be more than 50/. a year, that is, not more than enough to cover the most necessary expenses; and that they should not be tenable with college emoluments, or college emoluments beyond a certain small amount whieh might be specified ; that the bursaries of this kind, distributed in this way by a university board, should be entirely free, and that the holder of them might be a member of a college or of a hall, or might be an unattached student, at his discretion. 740. You assume that there would be some method used for ascertaining that they were poor students ? — Yes, certainly. The university board would have to find that out. I do not know that any better system could be devised than that which works so extremely well now with regard to the Goldsmiths’ Exhibitions. I believe there are other exhibitions that work equally well, but I happen to know the detail of these to some extent, and my impression is that no money which is given away in the university is better used or does more educational good than the exhibitions which are given bj' the Goldsmiths’ Company. For one of those exhibitions a candidate has to satisfy the board of the company that he is deserving, and then he is subjected to an examination here, and the two things, literary merit as tested by examination, and poverty as tested in other ways, determine who should have the exhibitions. 741. Is that examination competitive, or not? — Competitive to a great extent, that is to say, all persons who are approved by the board and considered to be in any way eligible are examined here by university examiners. And then the exhibitions are not given away absolutely on the basis of the report of the examiners, but other circumstances are taken into consideration by the board ; if you have two persons nearly equal in an examination, although one may happen to have done a little better in the examination than the other, yet if the other is very much poorer he is considered, I believe, to have in most cases the stronger claim. 742. And you would propose that exhibitions of that kind should be given by competitive examination upon those principles ? — Yes. 743. The next point is as to the bearing of any general provision for pass education or for poor students upon the halls ; what special bearing upon the halls do you contemplate ? — The halls have been mainly pass institutions, and it is from that point of view that 1 wish to speak of them now'. The conditions of the existence of halls in past times are, I venture to think, disappearing. They have done extremely good work, but just now they are in a very critical position. The danger is that under any provision for better instruction, for more economical living in colleges, or for university ])ass education, the halls would be crushed out. The halls have existed hitherto because, first of all, for some years past they have been managed very economically. Then I venture to think also that the education given in some of the halls has been good. We have devoted ourselves chiefly to pass- men, but it is quite obvious that those conditions are ceasing now to exist. We used to do great service in giving facilities for the admission to the university of those who could not from want of attainments obtain admission to the best colleges, but now any one can come and get admitted gs an unattached student, and F 3 OXFORD Rev. E. Hatch, M.A. 24 Oct. 1877. 46 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. E. Hatch, M.A. 24 Oct. 1877. M. Burrows, Esq., M.A. also muclt larger facilities are given for admission to colleges. We have, 1 think, retained the numher of students that we have retained during the last few years chiefly by the tradition of the past, which is a vanishing tradition. 744. By the larger facilities for admission to col- leges, I suppose you mean the system of allowing their students to be in lodgings? — Yes. 745. Most colleges have made their test examina- tion rather stricter than formerly, have they not? — Quite so ; hut still if you take the facilities all togetlier they are so great, both with regard to col- leges and with regard to unattached students, that tlie class of men who used to come to us need not come to us any longer ; and they have only come to us in the last few years, after the introduction of the new system, because of the old traditions of the place to a great extent. I need not point out to your Lord- ship and the Commission that the Act gives, and designedly gives, at least two alternative courses to be adopted with regard to the halls. One course is practically to endow the halls, that is to say, to endow them by making lellowships tenable with educational offices in the halls. This would require considerable modification of the university statutes with regard to halls, but at the same time, if the principle were accepted, those points of detail, although they would have to he carefully worked out, would not be insuperable. That would be the alternative which would give the minimum of change ; the other alternative is that of uniting the halls either with one another or with colleges. If I may venture to express an opinion upon that point it would be to this effect, that it is not desirable to continue all the halls. One or fwo of those institutions would fulfil all the purposes which are required to be fulfilled by halls, and it would be better that there should be one or tw’o in a good state than that there should he, as there are now, four. After considering the subject for some time, the plan which seems to me to be the best and which I venture to suggest is that the sites and buildings of some of the halls should be disposed of, which I believe the Commission have power to do, and that the money so raised should be the nucleus of a fund for either endowing upon a better basis one of the existing halls, or founding another university hall. In that case the new hall or halls so founded and endowed might either fulfil the function which halls fulfill now of facilitating entrance to the univer- sity for a certain class of students, or it might be a centre for university pass teaching; that is to say, that the hall might consist mainly of lecture rooms in which lectures of the kind which I ventured to speak of just now might be given, and it might be a centre, that is to say, for the university teachers of pass subjects ; and the students might be admitted to them on giving any proof of educational fitness. 746. You have something to submit, have you not, upon the subject of the foundation of a professorship of Biblical Greek ? — Biblical Greek hap|)ens to be the study to which I have given myself up most for many years; it is one of admitted importance; it is germane to the studies and spirit of this place, and at the same time it is one for which not only is there no adequate provision in the university now, but in the list of requirements sent in by the Council, Avhich no doubt is before your Lordship, there is no men- tion of it. The professors of theology say that no additional professorship is required in their depart- ment and it is not mentioned by the Council. It is mentioned under another name in the list of require- ments sent in by the Board of Studies for literal hunianiores by the name of Hellenistic Greek ; but I venture to urge strongly the claim of the study of Biblical Greek. I need not urge the strong claim which the study of the Bible should have. 747. Y”ou mean the language of the Septuagint and of the New Testament ? — Yes, the language of the Septuagint and of the New Testament in relation to one another and to the contemporary language. It is a study the importance of which is being more and more felt, and which is almost entirely absent from the studies of the place. There is what might be the nucleus of an endowment for such a professorship in the Grinfield lectureship on the Sejjtuagint, which is a small bequest producing from 40/. to 50/. a year. This of course does not afford a substantial incom e in itself, b ut it might be made the basis of a pro- fessorship. At any rate there is the study so far partially recognised. What I should urge would be that the Grinfield lectureship might be made the nucleus of a professorship, not of the Septuagint only, but of Biblical Greek in general; that is to say, of the language of the Septuagint and of the New Tes- tament in relation to one another and to contemporary Greek. 748. What other literature is there extant in the Greek language which would come under that cate- gory ? — There are the other versions of the Old festament, and there is a considerable amount of literature belonging to the period immediately before and after the Christian era ; for example, the Ai)ocalyptic hooks, the Psalms of Solomon, and other books which have been published in one or two col- lections, for example, Hilgenfeld’s “ Messias ludcco- rum,” and “ Novum Testamentum extra Canonem receptum.’’ Anyone rvho taught this must of course deal at length with the relation of Philo and Josephus to Biblical Greek. In spite of all that has been written, the scientific study of Biblical Greek is comparatively a new subject ; but it is one of growing importance, and it would be a very suitable study for a place like this which has always tried to be at least in the forefront of theological learning. The witness withdrew. Montagu Burrows, Esq., M.A. (Chichele Professor of Modern History), examined. 749. {Chairman.') You have sent us a note of some points on which you are prepared to give your assis- tance to the Commission, and the first is as to the largely increased number of readers and teachers pro- posed in the scheme of “ university requirements ” adopted by the Hebdomadal Council, taken in con- nexion with the existing position of the professors. Perhaps before you enter upon that I may notice that I see in this book that the Board of Modern History, to which I suppose you belong, greatly enlarged its requirements in the interval between the first period, 1873, and the last, which was 1876, because in 1873 they asked for two professors of English history and English literature with an indefinite number of readers, and in the latter year they asked for in effect, as I understand it, five new professorships, namely, of Englisli history, foreign history, English literature, modern church history, and Indian history, with a modification of Anglo-Saxon, also a professorship of Northern antiquities, and three or four readers ; and the Hebdomadal Council has recommended two pro- fessors of English history and English literature, and two readers generally, one reader especially in poli - tical economy, and an occasional reader in Northern antiquities; perhaps when you enter into that subject you will explain to us why the number of professors is so greatly increased ? — I would say briefly, in reply, that I think the ideas of the Board of Studies got to be very much enlarged as time went on, and there was an idea that if we did not put in a claim for a. very large number of teachers, our School would not be fairly represented in the general arrangements which were proposed to be made. We put it out very full}q and rather with the belief that the Council would diminish the number considerably, on the principle of asking for a good deal and getting what we could. I think that may be stated as the general principle, but there is no A UNIVERSITY or OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 47 (loiil)t that sii))))osing cvcrytliing else to be satisfac- torily arranged, it would be extremely desirable that tlie Scliool should have the number of teachers set out in the larger plan. 750. {Mr. Bernard.) Your own view was that it would be desirable to have one professor of English literature, one [)rofe.ssor of archeology, and also to give a reader to the professor of political economy ? — Yes, that was my original idea. 751. {Chairman.) And to give the title of pro- fessor to the Header of Indian law and history ? — Yes ; of course I meant the po.sition of a professor, along with the title. 752. Will you give your views upon that subject which you put first, namely, the largely increased number of readers ? — I would sa.y, to begin with, that the Hebdomadal Council has very nearly agreed upon the more moderate recommendations which I myself proposed some years before, so that as far as the scale goes on which they have decided to provide for our School, I am individually very fairly satisfied. But the particular point on which I wanted to say some- thing is with reference to the general scheme of providing readerships, not only for my own School but for others, and especially with reference to the use already made of the officers provided for the university teaching ; I mean the position of the pro- fessors. It seems to me that we are asking for a large supply of funds for purposes which might be provided for, if not thoroughly, yet far better than at present, if the professorships that we have already were properly utilised. I have here the Return made to the House of Commons, ordered the 11th of July 1876, Lord Francis Hervey’s Return, as it is com- monly called, which gives the number of auditors attending the professors ; and as that is in an official form, it does not .stand upon my statement at all. It will be seen Ifom this Return, that the number of persons attending the professors in several of the branches of study is so extremely small that as a matter of fact the professors are not made use of as teachers to any real extent. Therefore, as I have said more than once in the Council, in debating the Report which is now before your Lordship, though agreeing with the recommendations which are gene- rally made in that Report, I have always said, and I say again, that I do not think they are of much use, as far as additional teachers are concerned, unless the professors are put on a different footing. There is more than one way in which that can be done. I do not know whether this subject enters into the scheme of the Commission. 753. It is desirable that we should consider that subject, if you will tell us what your views are about it? — I will at once go to what I consider would be a way of putting the professors upon a satisfactory footing, and thereby enabling them to do the work for which I imagine they are to a great extent paid. There used to be a system in the university of com- pulsory attendance upon the professors’ lectures; every undergraduate had to present two certificates of attendance on the lectures of some professor in order to obtain a degree. The consequence of that absurd plan, if I may venture to call it so, was that passmen and classmen alike were required to attend on the professors, the passmen not being generally able to get mucli good from the professors at any time, and they attended the professors who gave the most agreeable lectures upon any subject whatever, quite indepen- dently of the particular course which they were themselves going through. This of course failed, as it could not but fail. The attendance was perfunctory ; it was a mere lounge, and nothing was learned from it. It was bad for the professor, and bad for the men. But the university, I think unwisely, if I may venture to say so, went into the opposite extreme, and abolished this system of compulsory attendance alto- gether. From that day to this (I am not prepared to say the exact number of years ago ; I suppose it must be some 15 or 18 years ago), there has been no such thing as compulsory attendance upon any professor’s lectures, and it has been considered as an obsolete idea. In saying this, I blame myself for having, in the letter which appears at page 54 of the “ Univer- sity Requirements,” committed myself to the state- ment that compulsory attendance upon the professor by statute was out of the question. In defence of myself for having said what I now think is quite wrong, I will just say that I did not know that the letter I wrote in 1873 was to be printed. I was not supplied with any proof of it, and if I had been so supplied, I think I should have made my statement in a hypothetical form. When my letter was reprinted the other day for the Council, it was thought un- desirable that there should be any alterations made, because it was said that the Council had formed its opinion upon the papers already printed; so that I stand committed to a statement which I repudiate. I am of opinion that some form of compulsory attend- ance is the only effective way of bringing the pro- fessors back into the system, and producing a great reform in the university. I say some form. My opinion is that honourmen only should be compelled to attend j that they should be compelled to attend only one course of lectures by any professor of their own subject, that is to say, the subject they are examined in. That would give them a choice of pro- fessors, and if one was incompetent, they would be pretty safe to find another who was satisfaetory to them. Certificates of attendance would have to be produced in the Schools. These certificates of attend- ance should only be given after some sort of ex- amination. This I think would be no hardship to the men, and the lectures would be a great assistance to them in many ways, as well as to the professors themselves. But if it is not too long, may I explain how the present system works, and how it is that the professors’ lecture-rooms under the present system are not filled ? I will explain why the pre- sent system requires a remedy. The system of teaching now is by intercollegiate lecturers ; there are scarcely any Readers. As your Lordship is aware, there is a Reader in ancient history, but none in modern history. In the Schools where the subjects, such as Liter re Humaniores and history, are well under- stood by college tutors, a system of intercollegiate lec- tures by college tutors is established, and that system works very well in many respects. The under- graduates get a considerable variety of teaching, but it is, necessarily, teaching simply for the examinations ; I say necessarily, for it is almost necessarily so, and I think practically it is so. 754. You mean, I suppose, simply in the subjects of the examinations ? — Yes, simply in the subjects of the examination, with reference to the examination papers, and obtaining honours in the examination. Then this being so, the intercollegiate lecturers in the nature of things (and I for one cannot blame them in the least) pass men on from one to the other. They are all in the same grade ; they have the power of tutors over their men — it is, so to speak, “ Y^ou help me, and I’ll help you;” and the tutorial power is exercised in sending men from one tutor to another. The pro- fessors are not in the same position ; in other words, the intercollegiate tutors are protected, and the pro- fessors are not protected and therefore they drop out of the system, and have, as I said at the beginning, a very small number, comparatively, of auditors. Take my own case : — though I now have an average of 20 men at my lectures, there are large colleges, sending many men into our School, from which I have scarcely ever had a single man. 755. What exactly do you mean by “ protected ” ? — That the professors have no tutorial power ; they are not tutors of men in the colleges. Then they may live out of college, as I do myself, and they have no power of saying to men, “You are to go to thislecture, or to go to that,” whereas tutors can do so, men being put under their charge for this express purpose ; and, as a matter of fact, they do much what they are told ; OXFORD. M. Barrows, Esq., M.A. 24 Oct. 1877. P 4 48 Ul^IVEKSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION; — MINUSES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. M. Burrows, Esq., M.A. 24 Oct. 1877. they hardly ever look at the University Gazette and pick out teachers for themselves. At least this is what conies under niy observation. 756. (d/r. Bernard.) You mean protected against competition ? — Exactly. If they started fair, and there was the same chance for all, the professors would pro- bably have just as many auditors as the tutors, pro- bably more ; but they do not. It has been said, I believe, that the professors have oidy to thank them- selves for this position. I think this can hardly be so, when it appears that the same deficiency of auditors is observed in so many branches. Y ou will find it in almost all the branches of teaching here, with the exception of two, one of which is divinity ; that is to say, the bishops require certificates of having attended a professor ; the other is the Natural Science Depart- ment, where the colleges do not supply the require- ments for teaching natural science, so that men are obliged by the nature of the case to go to the pro- fessor at the museum. The only other exception, as far as I can see, (and that is hardly one,) is the Law School, where at present a good many auditors are found at the lectures ; but that is already changing, because tutors are springing up in colleges. It is a new kind of Law that has been taught of late ; that is to say, not only is there more Law taught by professors than was the case four or five years ago, but also since the Law School has been separated from the History School, it demands a higher teaching of Law, which was not at first readily provided in the col- leges, but I see signs, as I said, of a change ; and soon the same defect will be found in the Law School as has already been found in other Schools. If I may venture to say a little more upon that subject, I should say that the loss to the undergraduates is very con- siderable — of course I look upon it from a professor’s point of view — inasmuch as they do not often get from the college tutors (although they may be more attrac- tive men perhaps) the higher kind of professorial teaching vvdiich the j>rofessors are bound to supply. The professors of subjects are bound to deal with principles, to compare, as in my own school, periods of history with one another, to criticise books and sub- jects and phases of historical teaching, and often to deal with subjects in a comprehensive way ; and I cannot but think that such teaching, even a little of it, say two hours a week for a single term during a man’s two years, which is the minimum I propose, and still more if he made a further use of professiorial lectures, would elevate and improve his historical knowledge. I .speak of my own School especially, and I may say the same, more or less, with regard to others. I may pei haps go so far as to say that this might make the difference between the man who has merely crammed up enough to get a first class in the school, and the man who will develop the subject further in after life, and become an historian. Then with regard to the professors themselves, it has been said that their business is to employ themselves in research, and that they are not expected to lecture to large classes of men. I hope I may be allowed to say that I think that to be an exceedingly insufficient view of the position of a professor, and it is certainly directly contrary to the view contemplated by our Statutes. I believe further, that as far as research itself is concerned, taken in the largest sense, the professor is very much the better for making his researches while he is teaching large classes of men. It stimulates, brightens, and encourages him, and teaches him where his own faults are, and how to improve his own methods of research ; whereas a mere student is not in my opinion in a professorial position ; he may add as an antiquarian to our knowledge of history, or in other subjects he may improve and extend the limits of his subject ; that is one thing, and the more we have of such men the better; we want such men for all subjects ; but a professor should he in my opinion, a teaching man as well as a man of research. I think, therefore, that he is himself injured by the present position of things. I do not think that you now get the results out of your professors that you would obtain if a man found himself lifted onwards, as Arnold was in the habit of saying, on the wings of his pupils, towards the further imj)roveaient of his own knowledge. I may also say that the German professors are protected by compulsory enactment; that is to say, the men are compelled to attend pro- fessors’ lectures in Germany, I believe in all the universities ; and there we are commonly supposed to look for first-class professors ; they are working under that system. 757. The whole of the instruction is given b}^ pro- fessors in Germany, is it not? — I think so. There are ditferent kinds ; there are extraordinary professors, answering very much to our tutors ; but the ordinary and the extraordinary are both under the same system of compulsory attendance, and that is the essential point. Here you pay professors to make bricks, but you do not give them straw. 758. Is that all that you wish to say under that particular head ? — One word more. The last Report of our Board of Studies, p. 91, stated that the teaching by professors might be lifted into a better position. They did not accede to all that I have now said ; but they did accede to another point, namely, that the School would be improved if the professors were always to be examiners, one or other of them. The professors cannot possibly hold a proper relation to their subject within the university unless they are in continuous contact, not only with the students of the subject, but with the examinations of those students. The other examiners would supply the necessary cor- rection if their previous instruction had been in any way undesirable. It should be remembered that the professor’s lectures can only' possibly cover a very small portion of the large area over which the examination extends. The result of what I wish to say is, that if we are to make this great demand for an increased number of teachers of different sorts and kinds, I think before we accede to such a plan, even the modified plan of the Council, something ought to be done to make more use of the machinery we have already, namely the professors. Upon that particular point that is all I have to say. 759. {Chairinan.) Before passing to any other point, allow me to ask you these few questions. As I understand, you would advocate compulsion, not to attend j)articular lectures, but to attend one or more courses of lectures, leaving to the student the choice ; and then when he came to present himself as a candi- date for honours, he must produce a certificate of his having attended those lectures and having satisfied the professor in some examination, the subject or subjects being amongst those which he takes up for his honour degree ? — Exactly. 760. Would that in your judgment interfere with the attendance upon the tutorial lectures of the associated colleges ? — It would, very slightly so. Say that a young man who devoted two years to his course gives a part of one term out of his two years to attendance upon one professor’s lectures ; that is, if he takes the minimum ; it would be only just so much taken out of the time given to the inter-collegiate lecturers. Our Board of Studies itself recommends “ that the system of inter-collegiate lectures should be “ brought into closer union with the professoriate.” 761. How would you propose that the two systems should be made to work together; that is to say, how would you propose to relax the compulsion to attend upon the collegiate lectures, in order to leave room for the others? — If the university required that this should be done, the thing would fall into its place as a matter of course. 762. That is, the time necessary for it would be taken into account in the colleges, and they would require so much less for their own subjects ? — Just so. 763. In the nature of things, as I understand your own view, the professorial lectures differ in their character from the collegiate lectures ? — They ought to do so. .J UNIVKKSITY OF OXIOIID COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 49 764. That is to say, the professorial lectures are more critical, and the collegiate are more exegetical, I suppose ? — That is one way of explaining it. 765. So that the particular office of the tutorial lectures would not be discharged by the professorial ? — Just so, or only to a certain extent. 766. So much of the exegetical teaching would be lost to make way for a certain amount of critical ? — Instead of having the whole of the lectures upon the books, and the immediate subjects of examination, there would be a portion of it of a more comprehensive kind, which would make the tutorial lectures them- selves more fruitful. I must not be understood to depreciate the abilities or the merits of the tutors, many of whom are quite tit to be professors. 767. As a matter of fact are not many of those intercollegiate lectures undistinguishable in their character from professorial lectures ? — It is impossible for me to say that in all cases, because I cannot attend them myself, but some that I know are very easily distinguished from them. 768. To take your own subject, Mr. Bernard has put into my hand the “ Oxford University Gazette ” of the 12th October, in which there is a notice that Mr. Owen will lecture at the Clarendon Building on the administrations of Sir John Shore and Sir George Barlow, wiih a general review of the state of India at the close of the special period, on Thursday at 12 ; would that lecture be given on principles distinguish- able from those on which you would lecture on the same subject, I do not refer to any particular opinions, but to the general mode of treating such a subject in a lecture ? — That is rather a more general title than most of them, and I think Mr. Owen’s position is rather more that of a professor, and I hope his position will be that of a professor. 769. I see he is a university lieader. Then you suggest that one of the professors should be an examiner. You are aware of course that an opinion which seems to be in the opposite direction prevails generally upon such subjects. I mean that it is the prevailing notion, that it is better that the examina- tions should be conducted, not by the teachers but by others where you have the choice of other examiners ? — Our own Board of Studies, as your Lordship has observed, has recommended it, and we are quite a mixed body. I do not myself see any serious objection to it. 770. {Prof, Smith.) Might it not be contended that under the present system it is the teachers who examine ; because the examiners — I do not know about the modern history school, but in other schools — are very I'requently selected from the class of collegiate tutors ? — Almost entirely. 771. {Chairman.) Therefore there would be at least a chance of one class of teachers being represented as well as another? — Exactly so. 772. Are not profe.-sors often appointed to be examiners? — Not very often I think. It is nine years ago since I was an examiner, except for one term. At the conclusion of the old mixed school of law and history I was suddenly asked to take the examination for one term, but with that exception I have not been an examiner for nine years. 773. {Prof. Smith.) Is not that owing to the standing of the professors being a little greater than that of the men >vho ordinarily arc asked to examine ; because I have noticed myself that at one time I used to be constantly asked to examine, whereas I am not so now; and I attribute that simply to the fact that it is rather felt that it is work for younger men. I ask if, in your opinion, that may be the explanation ? — I do not think it is. The mode of appointment to the office, I confess 1 do not like at all, viz., by the vice- chancellor and the proctors in turn. Two terms out of three being in the hands of the proctors, they naturally put in as examiners men that they know of their own standing, men, if possible, of their own college. I think a former vice-chancellor put me in, if I recollect right. 774. {Chairman ) To examine in particular books Q 6223. it is necessary that a man should be very familial with the books in which he examines, and that familiarity would pass away when he ceased to teach in those subjects, would it not? — To some extent it would; but on the other hand I should say that if a person is not too old, and if he is constantly hard at work learning and teaching, he is more valuable as an examiner or a teacher, when middle-aged or elderly, than a young man who is fresh from the reading of particular books, because he has had more time to digest his reading, and is less a slave to partial and one-sided views. In Germany, I daresay, as your Lordship is aware, a very large proportion of the professors are middle-aged and elderly men. Dr. Las- peyres has lately shown that their average age is 53, and that the oldest professors are best attended. 775. Will you go on to the next point, the method of appointing professors ?— -I have only a word or two to say on this point ; I do not (piite know whether the proposals made in the Report of the Hebdomadal Council — in which 1 very generally agree, having been on the Committee of University Requirements — refer to all the existing chairs, or only to future ones. Some perhaps might hold one, and some the other view ; but one can hardly judge from the context. If it is supposed to refer to existing professorships, and the holders of those chairs are to be appointed by the board recommended in this report of ours, I am strongly against such a plan. I venture to say that I should hope that no change, or at any rate very little change, will be made in the existing methods of appointing professors, whatever may be done with new ones. For my own part, having watched the appointment of professors here for 24 years, I have been led to form a very favourable opinion of the variety of methods of appointing. There seems to me a great virtue in this variety of methods of appoint- ment, even including that by Convocation, which has I know been considered one of the wmrst ways ; in my opinion it is a very good w'ay. 776. What professor.s are so appointed by Con- vocation ? — The Camden professorship of history is one, the professorship of comparative philology, the professorship of political economy, the professorship of logic, the professorship of poetry, and some others which I do not remember at the moment. 1 was going to say that by this variety of methods, even including that by Convocation, you sift out the best men, and you are most free from what is the real danger of boards such as proposed. The great danger of these, it seems to me, is that you place the appointments in the hands of cliques, and of mere majorities in the university. Say that two members of the board are to be elected by Convocation and two by the Council, together with tlie vice chancellor ; the appointment of this board, and therefore of the professors, reflects the opinion, I do not say politically or theologically, of any particular party, but in general it Avill be a man that the clique or party which happens to be uppermost approves of, and in all republics like our own there must always be contending parties. It is like political life. We exist by party government more or less ; and I do not think that professors, appointed under that system, are likely lo be so fairly and so well appointed as they are by the variety of boards which at present exist, many of which are quite independent of party. Then, again, with regard to the recommendation in page 14 as to the visitatorial power of the board, I may say here that I entirely agreed with a large minority of the Council who opposed that idea of having a board with visitatorial powers over the pro- fessors. I think it is degrading to the professors, and it is undesirable for them in all ways. 777. Supposing the recommendation at page 12 to be understood only with reference to new professor ships to be founded out of university or college funds, do you object to the mode of appointment so limited ? — I do not think it is the best way. I should be more inclined to copy some of the existing boaids. In fact, I should like a larger number. I think as many as seven or nine are more likely to sift out the G OXFORD. Burrows, Esq., M.A. 24 Oct. 1877 50 university of OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. M. Burrows, Esq., M.A . !4 Oct, 1877. best man tlian smaller boards. I know there is a very great dift’erence of opinion upon that point in the Council, but I should not myself have adopted this particular plan ; if it is only to apply to new professors it is of comparatively little importance. 778. Do you think that the Council could have intended to recommend the abolition of the power of appointment by the Crown without saying so? — I suppose tliey would hardly venture to do that. 779. I presume that they could not mean to include all the I’egius professorships of divinity ? — I suppose not. 780. Is that all you wish to say upon that subject ? T wish to say that the expedients mentioned for the improvement of the professoriate in this Report of the Council seem to proceed upon the idea that the appointments have not been sulficiently good to begin with, that better methods of appointing should . be adopted, and that they should be more looked after by a board with visitatorial powers. That is the sum and substance, 1 think, of the recommendations of the Council, stated generally ; whereas, if 1 may venture to say so, my plan for improving the position of the teaching staff of the university is to provide the professors Avith people to attend them, and therefore make real use of them ; and, secondly, to secure a system of pensions by which you may have a more frequent change of professors. I should rely very much upon the system of pensions being esta- blished, because it must frequently happen that pro- fessors may be glad to retire at comparatively short periods, if they find they have mistaken their vocation, and that they do not like their Avork here. At present, without a system of pensions, or Avilhout any possi- bility of retirement except under the conditions of extreme old age or ioA’-cterale disease, (Avhich are the general conditions of retirement at present,) the idea of retirement docs not suggest itself to the minds of professors Avhen it is desirable that they should retire. I think if you Avere to give them a retirement at a reasonable jjeriod, say 15 years, with an alloAV'ance of something like half their salary, and extending that proportion as the time went on, say at 20 years two-thirds, and at 25 years the Avhole, or something of that sort (I am only suggesting that as a possible scheme), you would then oil the Avheels, so to speak, of the machine, and have a change of professors Avhich Avould be exceedingly useful. Of course, though it must be remembered that professors are seldom appointed as young men, the difficulty is to find funds for the pensions ; that I am not pre- pared to go into now, but 1 would merely say generally, that where the funds of the professors are found by colleges I think it Avould be a much less evil that a fellowship or two should be suspended during the time that the pension is required for a retiring professor, than that a professor Avho ex hypothesi ought to retire should be kept ou. I think nothing is more mischievous than that the pro- fessors should be kept on merely because they cannot afford to retire. Of course that must be more or less so when men have spent their lives liere. Making this a profession they have no other profession to go into, and therefore they go on and on. I may say the same thing with regard to heads of houses. In short I feel just as strongly that there should be means provided for the heads of houses retiring, so that you might have thoroughly efficient people to work both the colleges and the university. 781. The next point Avhich you have put doAvn relates to the college tuition necessary for passmen as bearing upon the amount of funds available from the colleges. What is your 023iuion uiAon that point ? — What I thought upon that, without going into much detail in the matter, was that of course the difficulty of your honourable Commission will be to find funds to answer the numerous ajA^^hcations that are made for them. My own belief is that there is not that amount of collegiate funds which the general public sujApose to be available for those great changes which are advocated. I do not think it is commonly put out before the j^ublic, I have hardly ever seen it at any rate, Iioav very much more of the college funds are required in most colleges for tuition than are used for that purpose at present. I speak es])ecially of the passmen, because they seem to me to be the peojAle most neglected at Oxford at the present time, in fact CA’cr since I have been in Oxford. Of cour.se I knoAV that some peojAle think that Ave should get rid of them altogether. 1 ha\e never agreed to that myself; on the contrary, I think our institution of passmen and classmen is an admirable one. Every effort should be made to get as many men as po.ssible to become classmen. Yet there Avill still be a large residuum of young men who are not capable of be- coming classmen, but Avho make admirable members of other professions afterwards. I think that many of the colleges, so far as my experience goes, fail in educating those men as they ought, and I believe one cause of this failure to be that there is not sufficient teaching poAver applied to the assistance of those men indivi- dually in the colleges. Certain courses of lectures are given, the men do not learn much from them ; and in many cases they complain that there is not much jiains taken Avith them individually, and that they are left to private tutors to get forced through the schools; in short, they get through the best Avay they can, after several rejections. I do not say that that is com- monly the case, but it is too commonly the case ; it is to a very large extent the case. I have frequently heard this complaint made, and that not by mere idlers. Therefore I think that a larger 2 Aroportion of the college funds than at present should be set a 2 Aart for keeping a large resident body of teachers for the passmen as Avell as for the honourmen. 782. You just now spoke of 2 Jrivate tutors; Ave Avere informed, I think, by other witnesses that, as to honourmen at all events, the 2 Aractice of reading Avith private tutors had very much declined ; is that according to your experience — I should say it has somewhat, but not very much. 783. Is it much in use for passmen ? — Yes, I should say as much as ever, if not more so; but it is very difficult to judge, and I would rather not say posi- tively. I do not think that I am so good a judge of that as many people who live in colleges are. 784. Do you know on Avhat terms a 2ndvate tutor teaches a passman? — I believe 10/. a term is the usual fee. 785. Is that the same as an honourman Avould pay —Yes. 786. Is the business of private tuition for passmen in very few hands, as it was in my time ? — I knoAV of a dozen or so myself, and there must be a great many more than that. 787. {Prof. Smith.) When you spoke of providing increased instruction for passmen, did you mean that it should be tutorial instruction Avithin the colleges, or by means of university readers or teachers? — I meant within the colleges. What I meant especially Avas the personal superintendence of each man ; that the tutor should feel that he was responsible for that man passing through, and that each tutor should have a small number of men so that he might bestOAv more attention iqAon them. 788. {Chairman.) Have you formed any opinion as to what ought to be the maximum number of men for each tutor? — I could not offer any very good opinion upon that point. I have thought that from a dozen to 20 as a maximum would be the 2 >roper number, but I should be sorry to say anything very positive upon it, as I have had no experience of that kind myself. The smaller number would no doubt be best. 789. {Dr. Bellamy.) Do you think that the num- ber practically exceeds 20, taking the colleges all round ? — Yes, in some of the larger colleges it Avould be much more. I am not presuming to find fault with individuals, but with the system. 790. {Chairman.) I presume that each passman would go in his oAvn college to as many tutors as he Avould want for the different subjects ? — Yes. i UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 51 791. {Mr. Bernard.) The business of a tutor as a tutor is not always to teach a man, is it; for his teaching, does he not go to the lecturers of the college or elsewhere ? — Yes. Tlie tutors, however, teach as well as tlie lecturers. 792. But to look after him is the business of the ^utor ? — Yes ; his especial business should be to help forward their education in every possible way. 793. {Chuirmaji.) Your next point is as to the need of collegiate funds being expended in many cases on the provision of more accommodation for undergraduates, instead of developing any further the lodging-house system. What have you to say with reference to that subject ? — Upon the same prin- ciple as before I thought 1 ought to mention that several colleges do not provide accommodation for a very large proportion of their men. I have never varied from the opinion which I formed many years ago, and which I expressed very fully on a former occasion. I would refer to what I said in the year 1867 before the select committee of the House of Commons upon the Oxford and Cambridge Education Bills, when 1 was examined at great length upon the respective merits of colleges and lodging-houses. As to the disclosures which have been made of late, with regard to the general system of lodgings, though no doubt too sweeping, I am convinced upon careful inquiry, that there was a great deal of truth in what was said ; it has only confirmed what I stated before the committee. Therefore I have always felt great regret at the extension of the university of late years through this particular method I consider it a most unfortunate method of extension. I am bound to say that I have not found on inquiry that the system of unattached students works so badly as I thought it would when it was first proposed ; and the reason why it has not, I did not at that time so clearly per- ceive ; 1 did not anticipate that the great poverty of the unattached students would much protect them from the evils which beset undergraduates belonging to colleges who live in lodgings. With all the faults of the collegiate system, and of course the system has faults, which I know very well, 1 think they are so very much less than those of the lodging-house sys- tem, that 1 exceedingly regret to see the latter spreading as it has done. If the colleges are anxious to spend their funds in building, and providing for taking more of their men into college, instead of spreading them about in lodging-houses, I venture to hope that this Commission will see its way to assisting them in doing so, instead of taking their money for university purposes, however much it may be wanted. I cannot imagine any better way of spending college funds than in providing accommodation for their own men. 794'. I presume that in most cases there is spare ground upon which the colleges could enlarge their buildings ? — I know that there is in some cases. I am not able to say whether it is in most ; but where it is not so, the colleges could always have halls, a>dcs annexcc, in which they could put a Master of Arts who should look after their men. I do not think that there is any college that could not do that. 795. You were referring, were you not, to Dean Burgon’s letters upon the lodging-house system ? — Y'es. 796. Have they not been made tbe subject of an inejuiry by authority in the university ? — The matter was referred to the lodging-house delegacy, and their Report has been published. 797. What was the result according to that Report? — The tenor of that Report, speaking generally, was to show that the evils of which the lodging-house system was accused had not come before the De- legates, or in a very slight degree. Of course I hardly like venturing to criticise a public Report, but I think the obvious remark with reference to it is that when those who are answerable for a system are asked to report upon it they do not themselves feel the defects in it, ami a great deal of mischief may really be going on, although it may not come before the officers specially charged with the management of the department. 798. Do I understand that they merely reported that they had not previously been informed of them, or did they report that they had inquired into the allegations, and that the result of their inquiry was that they could not find sufficient evidence of them ? — The Report of the Delegates did not deal with any special allegations, but merely explained the working of the system, discussed and dismissed certain pro- posals for an improvement of the system, and ended with a hint of exaggerated rumours and unfounded suspicions. 799. When they made that inquiry did not those who mistrusted the system bring forward such evi- dence as they themselves were acquainted with ? I understood that some correspondence took place be- tween the Delegates and Dean Burgon. 800. Was he asked to produce the grounds of his statements ? — I believe he was examined on a former, but not on the last occasion. 801. I think 1 understood you to say that you your- self to some extent had looked into the matter, and that you had met with evidence which produced an impression upon your own mind? — That was as one of the committee of Council appointed to inquire into the question ; and, so far as the result of my own examination w'as concerned, it went to confirm a great deal of what had been asserted. 802. What Report did that committee of the Council make ? — I am not quite sure that 1 could say. 803. {Prof. Smith.) Can you not quote the words of the Report? — The Report was as follows: — “The Committee are of opinion — “ 1. That it is important to secure the co-operation of the colleges and halls w'ith the lodging-house dele- gates in the endeavour to prevent the evils to which the lodging-house system is liable ; and that with this view, in the statute under which undergraduates are allowmd to reside in lodgings with the consent of their college or hall (Statt. Tit. HI. sect. v. cl. 3 (2), p. 13), words should be inserted to the effect ‘ that in such consent it shall be specified that some officer of the college has inspected the particular lodgings in which it is proposed that the undergraduate in question shall reside, and approves of it for that purpose.’ “ 2. That no undergraduate belonging to a college or hall should be allowed to reside in a lodging-house until he has resided four terms within the university, except in the cases reserved by the university statutes before 1868. “ 3. That in future one proctor should enter on his office at the commencement of Michaelmas Term, and the other at the commencement of Easter Term. “ The Committee, in the discharge of their duties, have been led to consider some of the proposals con- tained in a pamphlet by the Rev. G. W. Kitchin, dated May 1, 1876, and beg leave to suggest that these proposals deserve the careful consideration of the Council.” 804. {Chairma7i.) Your next point is as to the want of university funds for the restoration of the university church, what have you to say with regard to that ? — I ought perhaps to apologise for bringing the subject forward, as it may be too remote from the business of the Commission ; but generally with refe- rence to the funds, though I do not know that it was ever mentioned in Council, I do think that the university is called upon to do something for the church. Every- thing else that the university could be called upon to do is mentioned in the report of the Council, but that is not mentioned, and it has always appeared to me to be the duty of the university to provide a better kind of accommodation in the church, and to bring it back to a more fitting condition for the university church than it has been in since I have known it. It would cost money, and therefore I should think it might fairly be put down as one of the requirements of the university. I am not prepared to say what sum would be required. Of course if that were done at all, if it were to be put into a fitter state for the university^ it G 2 OXFORD M. Purrowa, Esq., M.A. 24 Oct. 1877. 52 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. M. Burrows, Esq., M.A. 24 Oct. 1877. would be chiefly done by private funds, but the university ought to be required to do something towards it. 805. {Prof. Smith.) Will you allow me to ask you whether there is not a great fear in the minds ; f some persons that the church might be very much spoiled by' the proposed restoration ? — T know there is that fear ; but the large majority of Convocation has already settled the question by their vote. 806. (Chairman.) I should like to ask you a ques- tion or two upon your answers to the questions of the committee of the Hebdomadal (^ouncil which are printed at page 57. I see you suggest that there should be in connexion with the school of modern history a professorship -of English literature in its non-historical aspect, and a professor of archteology. I am not sure that I understand why English literature in its non-historical aspect should belong lo the school of modern history? — There again, I think if I had had an opportunity of correcting a proof of my letter I should have erased those words. I do not care much about it ; but it did mean that it should not be a mere repetition of the historical professor’s lectures, which might very fairly include literature, and which do include it to some extent, but that it should be simply literature as literature, without any reference to history. In that way 1 believe my colleague thinks that English literature cannot be represented in our school at all, but I think it is the natural place in which to put it. But whether it becomes a historical course or a non-historical course is a matter of very' little consequence ; we ought to have a professorship of it. 807. That is what the Hebdomadal Council recom- mended, is it not ? — Yes. 808. You go on to suggest that there should be a professor of archmology. Again, 1 do not clearly see what archa?ology has to do with modern history ? — Nothing illustrates and enriches the study of me- difeval history so much as archaeology; but we require experts to deal with it. I meant medimval archajology, and to include art architecture in it, as well as the critical knowdedge of medimval MSS. and inscriptions, which few mere historians possess. Our Architectural and Historical Society, has taught us how great a want there is of such a professor. 809. I should like to ask vou a question which has been suggested by a note which I find here ; is it quite certain that advantage arises from separating ancient from modern history in different Schools ? — I have proposed in our own Board of Studies, but the idea has never found favour, that we .should have ancient history represented to some extent in our School, but not to join the two Schools to- gether. I think it is necessary that they should be separated into two distinct Schools for many reasons, one especially being that we take up for our modern history School a great number of students who have a comparatively small knowledge of Latin and Greek books. 810. They might acquii-e a knowledge of histor-y, might they not, without reading it in the original languages ? — I for one should not contemjrlate that as a useful thing. 1 think that everything depends, in studying ancient history, upon r’eading it in the original language, and knowing the books thoroughly. 811. With reference to modern history and to the history of foreign countries, the best books can only be read in the original languages by those who know those languages ? — Yes ; but we do not find enough knowledge here of French or German to make use of those books except in translations ; the best of them are ti-anslated. This subject is not sufficiently taught in schools, but it is different with ancient history, which I should like to make one of the “ special sub- jects” in the modern history School. No one is more impressed than I am with the importance of a know- ledge of ancient, to a good knowledge of modern, history; in that way you might introduce il, and the best men would bring them to bear one upon the other. 812. I see that you suggest, and the Hebdomadal Council have adopted the suggestion, that there should be a professorship of Indian history. May I ask why there should be such a professor ?— Because the sub- ject has grown very largely of late years. When it was first introduced it was introduced in a tentative w'ay, and it was thought hardly a large and important subject enough to have a professor of it. But the subject is being more and more forced upon us, and the exertions of the present Reader have done very much to forward the subject, so that I should like to see him turned into a pi'ofessor, and that the subject should be made even more important than it is now. 813. The present Reader is Mr. Ow'en, is he not P — Yes. 814. I think he says, in the introduction to his re- cent volume of Lord Wellesley’s despatches, that it is impossible to separate Indian from the stream of general history ? — That is no doubt one view of the subject ; but on the other hand it is too large to be tacked on to anything else. 815. Does it not seem to you that although a Reader of a particular or local branch of history is desirable, it is not desirable that the subdivision should be made too minute by having a professor of each particular branch of local history, even though it may be im- portant ? — I agree that there may well be a question of that kind, but I decidedly think that Indian history should he made an exception, because it is such a large, and increasingly important subject. 816. (3Ir. Jiernard^ Why do you think so ? — Chiefly on account of our relations with India, and the far greater familiarity with its affairs now required of us. I am thinking very much now of the selected candidates who are to come to Oxford to be taught. I look upon the professor or reader, whichever he may be, as the person who is to teach the candidates a great deal, and I should like to see him elevated to a higher position. 817. Why do you say that the range of study of In I ;m history has increased? — Every year is adding to the immense literature with which we ought to have some acquaintance. 818. (Chairman.) By the comprehension of what subjects ? — Those despatches from different governor- generals which are now being published one after the other, of themselves form quite a new literature. Then there are new works on geography, on the native races, and the works of natives themselves on Indian subjects, as also of Frenchmen and Germans. 819. (Mr. Bernard.) Is the literature of Indian history much larger than it was ? — The State Papers of the India Office, the Memoirs of Great Englishmen in India, histories of modern wars, volumes of “ Asiatic Researches,” and the “ Calcutta Journal,” Reports on particular Districts, Collections of Treaties, and many other publications of this sort, form a mass of materials which no one who has any' other history to teach can possibly digest. 820. (Chairman.) I do not see that the Council have recommended a new- professorship of English history or literature. Indian history is probably one department of English, is it not? — No, they have not recommended a new professorship of English history', and I did not myself recommend that. 821. Does it not seem strange to have a pro- fessorship of Indian history, and no professorship of English history? — I think our present system of having two professors of modern history woi'ks, so far as my experience goes, sufficiently well in that direc- tion. English history is very much more largely taught by both of us than anything else ; and I should think probably would be by future professors. 1 do not say that it would not be a very good thing to have anotiier professorship, but it is not so much wanted as the other. 822. (Mr. Bernard.) You mean that English his- tory is sure to be taught to a large extent, whereas Indian history is not sure to be taught, unless it is specially provided for?— Y"es, that is my decided 0 ])inion. UNIVEESITY OP OXFOED COMMISSION; — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 53 823. {Chairman.) But it is specially provided for by a Reader ? — Yes ; but it now requires to be placed in the hands of a professor. 824. Is it not desirable to have regard to abstract fitness in some degree as well as to the dignity of the teacher ? — I think so far as abstract Htnes.s goes it would also be better, as I have already said. 825. {Prof. Smith.) With reference to one remark which fell from you, would it be possible, and if possible would it he desirable, to reejuire a knowledge of a modern language in the modern history School ? — I should be against that myself. I think it should be encouraged, perhaps more than at present ; we do not encourage it now, except in some special subject which can only be read in foreign languages ; and men can escape that task by taking an English subject. I cannot say that modern languages are tnuch en- couraged, but I should no be inclined to make them necessary. 826. {Dr. Bellamy^ I presume you think that mainly on the ground that it nould discourage many passmen from taking up the subject ? — Quite so. The professors of all subjects want to see their numbers increase, and a young school, however pros- perous, cannot afford to require more than is necessary for the pursuit of its main object. That object is the knowledge of history. 8i7. {Prof. Smith.) It might discourage some, l,ut it might improve the others ? — We should lose more than half our men, and that would be a very serious matter. Modern languages are very feebly taught at boys’ schools, and cannot well be learnt here. The witness withdrew. Henry Nettleship, Esq., M.A., Fellow of Corpus Christ! College, examined. 828. {Chairman.) We have your note which you have kindly sent to us of what you propose to state to the Commission. I will ask you to take the subjects mentioned in it in the order in which you have put them down. Will you first give us your opinion with respect to the need of providing tutois for the un- attached students — What I have to .say may be stated in very few words. It is simply that so far as I can see from the statutes and from the calendar the number of unattached students was, during the last year, 236. I suppose we may put it roughly at 250. Apparently there is no officer bound to watch over their morals or their instruction except two censors. 829. I may mention that the vice-chancellor told us that the university has appointed or agreed to appoint two tutors to teach that class of students until they take their moderations ? — That fact does not, I think, materially alter the case. I suppose that in an ordinary college the average proportion of tutors to men is as 1 to 20. I think that is a fair statement. Till! question is whether the unattached students are intended or are not intended to occupy a status equal to that of the members of colleges, because obviously, if they are, some more provision should be made for their instruction than what is rejnesented by, putting it at the very best, 4 to 250. It has occurred to me that the tutors should be appi inted by the university. 1 suppose that they should be paid partly by endow- ments and partly by the fees of the unattached students, their numbers to be decided according to circumstances. I suppose that the tutors would be expected to provide for the instruction of the un- attached students in the subjects recognised in the various examinations. 830. The students W'ould be assigned personally by some authority to the pariitular tutor? — I should imagine that would be so ; that a student would come and state wluit he intends to read, and would there- upon be assigned to the tutors who were appointed in that subject. 831. Then he would be required to attend a certain number of lectures, as students are in the colleges ? — Yes, exactly as students in the colleges. 832. Is that all that you have to say upon that, subject ? — Yes, that is all that I have to say. 833. {Earl of Redesdale^) Do you think that what you have proposed would tend to encourage the in- crease of those students? — Yes, I intended it in that sense. 834. Do you think it de.'iiable that those students should be increased? — Yes, I think so. 835. Do you think that non-resident members of tbe university are desirable ? — Yes, I think so. 836. {Chamnan.) The unattached students in par- ticular represent a poorer class of students generally than those in colleges, do they noc ? — I believe that is not altogether the case. I believe that some of them represent richer men, and some of them repre- sent older men, and a few are, I believe, married men ; some of course represent poorer men. 837. {Prof. Smith.) Surely the married men can provide instruction for themselves ? — I want to know where r.he instruction is to come from. 838. {Chairman.) I presume that the married men would always be a very small class under any circum- stances ? — I should suppose so. 839. {Prof Smith.) Do you think it abstractedly desirable that a man should be an unattached student rather than connected with one of the colleges ? — I think it is decidedly better for a poor man that be should. 840. {Chairman.) Because, I suppose, of tbe temp- tations to expense ?— Yes, I think so. If you examine the details of the expenses you will find that the main pressure of the expenses arises not so much from ihe regular charges of the colleges, but from the social necessities which are put upon the men in college. 841. {Mr. Bernard.) At any rate you think they should not be deterred by any disadvantages such as you have referred to ? — Yes, that is what I in- tended. 842. {Chairman.) Your next point is as to the con- version of the Anglo-Saxon chair into a chair of Teutonic language and literature, and a foundation of a professorship of the Romance languages, what have you to say with regard to that ? — I might perhaps have put those two questions together. I do not know whether n hat I have to say comes strictly into the question of university requirements ; but the reason that I had for making the suggestion was this, that I think the study of the Teutonic languages and jihilology ought to I'orm a very important part in the uni- versity studies, and I do not see bow that is to be accomplished unless you have a chair around which they can be centred. There is nothing done for the study of these subjects now except what is repre- sented by the Taylor scholarships, and the teaciiing which is given at the Taylor Institution. As to the Taylor scholarships, they naturally fall in many cases to men who have been brought up in Germany or in France, and who have derived their knowledge of the languages from this source ; and the teachers are not supposed to act as professors, but simply as teachers of language. That is to say, they teach to speak or write the languages. I think I am not wrong in say- ing that in the German univei’sities, certainly of the better kind, the study of German forms a very im- portant element. 1 was in Berlin in tbe year 1865, and I was student at the Berlin university for one term, and knew two or three students who were study- ing Latin and Greek. All of them were at the same time studying old German, and they were attending the lectures of the German professors, which in fact formed a regular part of the course. I hat is not possible here under present circumstances. So I'ar as I know, the only representation that we have of Teutonic idiilology, if it may be called a represen- tation, is the cbair'of Anglo-Saxon. My idea was that this should be changed into a chair with tbe title of the professorship of Teutonic philology and litera- ture, with the view of attracting students. I think the same remarks apply very much to a professor- G 8 OXFORD. M Bvrrom* Biq., M.A. 24 Oct. 1877. H. Nettleship, Esq., M.A. 54 UNIVEKSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. H. Netileship, I^sq., M.A. 84 Oct. 1877. ship of the Romance languages. There is no scientific study of the Romance languages at all in the place. They are merely represented by the teaching given at the Taylor Institution, and the Taylor scholarships. I think it is a very important thing that both those studies should be encouraged in the university, if for no other reason, at least because at present you have a large demand throughout the country for the study of modern literature and modern languages, and that demand is only satisfied in the most empirical, shallow, and superficial manner at the schools. Professorships of the Teutonic and Romance languages would form a centre for the scientific and higher study of these subjects. Then another point, I think, is that the study of modern philology would go hand in hand with the study of modern histoi’y and law. I do not say that it must necessarily do so, but it seems to me that just as you have classical languages and classical history studied together, so you might have modern history and modern languages studied together. I see no reason at all against this. 843. {Mr. Bernard.') You think that it might have a place in the examinations in the schools ? — I see no reason why it should not. 844. I suppose you do look forward to its finding its way in, if not as a compulsory subject, as an additional or optional subject? — Yes, certainly. 845. {Chairman.) Do you think that the plan of having separate professorships for all these different languages is better than having one professor, if he could be found, of a subject comprehensive of them all, with readers in each ; that is to say, supposing you could have a professor of the English language, a man who understood the history of the English language fully, he must understand Anglo-Saxon, and Teutonic, and Romance? — I beg your Lordship’s pardon, I fear that I did not make my meaning quite clear. I meant that you would have a professor of the Teutonic languages, to include of course Gothic, and Anglo-Saxon, and English. I meant a sejtarate professor for the Teutonic, and a separate professor for the Romance languages. 846. As I understand, a professorship of the English language rvould include, if you had a man who was fully competent for it, a knowledge of those elements of the English language ? — Of course. 847- Therefore, would it not scientifically be a sounder principle to have one professorship .and six readerships in those different branches under the pro- fessor, than to have a sepai'ate professor of the Teutonic language and the Romance language ? — I did not pro- pose that, because I was thinking of the resources of the university. I did not start the (luestion of reader- ships at all. 1 thought of it, but I purposely said nothing of it. 848. Might you not have one acquainted both n ith Teutonic and with Romance? — I .should prefer, as a means of starting the study of modern languages and literature in Oxford, to have two chairs established, one of the Teutonic languages and literature, and the other of the Romance languages and literature. 849. With regard to the success of the school as a school of instruction, is it not probable that a school in which the larger subject was taught, and taught in all its branches would be more attractive than two schools of Teutonic and Romance in each of which the specialty only was taught ? — I meant to advocate separate schools for each. 850. Do you think that the separation of each lan- guage as the subject of a separate professoriate would attract as many students as if the subjects M'ere com- bined ? — The question is whether they could be com- bined, whether the two are not too large a subject. 851. {Prof. Smith.) The proposal is not to have one man who is to be acquainted with the Teutonic languages, and also with the Romance languages, but to have a professor of English and a reader of the Teutonic language, and a reader of the Romance lan- guage ? — My proposal has nothing whatever to do with a reader. 852. {Chairnum.) You propose two distinct pro- fessorships, one of the Teutonic languages and the other of the Romance languages. What 1 suggested for your consideration was whether it would not be more useful and more attractive if you had one pro- fessorship of the English language and a readership in each of those subordinate branches ? — I much doubt whether it w ould. 853. The next point in your paper is as to the formation of a fund for the encouragement of original research in philology, the editing of unedited docu- ments, the collating of uncollated manuscripts, and other similar objects. Will you explain what you mean by that? — That is difficult, in fiict impossible to exj)lain in detail, because the details may be almost infinite ; but the state of the case is this, as I under- stand it, that in philology, just as I suppose in other branches of knowledge, there is always a large amount of work to be done, which cannot be done unless you have a board of direction to set men to do it. I am much struck with the fact that the Germans have men coming to England and collating our best manu- scripts, and publishing our unedited documents, which we ought to do ourselves. AI)' proposal was directed towards creating, if possible, a kind of permanent scientific committee with a philological department, the duty of which department should be to be con- stantly looking out for work which reciuires to be done, and then afterwards to look out for the man to do it. For instance, we wdll suppose that a very im- portant manuscript of any author has to be collated ; the chances are that the Germans Avill come and do it. The best existing manuscript, or one of the best existing, of Thucydides, now in the British Aluseum, has been collated and used by a German scholar. 854. {Mr. Bernard.) Who pays the German ? — Sometimes tlie Government. The great collection of Latin inscriptions which is now being published at Berlin was undertaken at tlie instance and expense of the Berlin University, which is a Government institu- tion. The other day Professor Waitz came to the Bodleian and discovered a document there, the existence of wdiich had not been previously known. 855. {Prof. Smith.) Of w'hat nature was that document? — I think it was a charter of a monastery, or something of that kind. 856. {3Ir. Bernard.) Has it frequently come to your knowledge that work of this kind might have been advantageously done by such means as you pro- pose ? — I think I have certainly known cases wdiere such work might have been done. It seems to me that now in England such work is only done acci- dentally. If a person happens to be engaged on a particular work he may ask other persons, privately, to do this kind of w'ork for him, but there is no per- manent body Avho are looking out for the sort of thing. There is a veiy great deal of unedited matter in the Bodleian. 857. {Chairman.) You are aware probably that what you suggest has been strongly urged by the Dean of Christ Church, and in substance recommended by the Hebdomadal Council ? — Yes, I am aware of that. 858. The last point in your paper is as to the pro- vision of musical instruction in connexion with the existing musical examinations ? — The Commissioners are aware that at present the subject of music is a subject recognised in university study. A musical degree is given and musical examinations are held, but there the matter stops. We are in fact, I under- stand, as regards the subject of music, exactly in the same position that the university of London holds wdth regard to the studies in which it holds examinations. The professor of music gives two or three lectures a year, but no further teaching of music is provided by the university. The importance of music as an art, and as an instrument of culture, is growing daily, and is more and more understood, and it seems desirable that if possible the musical students, instead of being merely examined, should be tempted to reside by providing a certain amount of instruction for them. The proposal would involve having a resident pro- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 5o fcssor, and tlio means of increasing his salary very considerably ; it would also involve the establishment of a few teachers to begin with. An outlay of 1,000/. a year woidd probably go a good way towards starting the school. The teachers might be paid like all the others, both by fees and by endowments. The object of the school would be to teach music scientifically. It would be one part of the proposal that the school should teach the science and theory of music ; the other would be that it should ])rovide a certain amount of practical instruction for the students in different instruments, so that you w'ould have an orchestra formed and concerts occasionally or regularly given, the proceeds of Avhich would go to the general fund of the school. The advantage which would arise from such an arrangement would, I think, be, that while the condition of the musical degree as a musical and not an arts degree would remain exactly what it now is, the musical students would be brought into contact with the arts students. This would tend, so far as it went, to counteract the somewhat narrow and professional character induced by a merely musical education. I may say that I consulted with the pro- fessor of music, and with Dr. Corfe, and the organists of Magdalen and of New Colleges, who agreed generally in the idea of such a scheme, the only differences being, apparently, as to points of detail. 859. It has been suggested that it might be a good thing if the professorship of music could be treated as a scientific professorship in connexion with the subject of acoustics and so with the school of physics; have you formed any opinion upon that point? — I should not venture to express an opinion upon that point. 860. The late Professor Donkin it is said was an example of the union of the qualities which would be necessary for that i)uipose ? — Yes, he was undoubtedly so, but I cannot venture to express an opinion upon that subject. 861. {Mr. Bernard.') You mean that the study of music should be an academical study, and not such as is pursued by the help of a music master ? — Most certainly. 862. If the university undertook to supply music masters, many persons would resort to them who would not he of the kind of students that you con- template ? — Quite so. I meant that the Oxford degree should express a certain amount of instruc- tion. 863. {Earl of Kedesdale.) Would you require some other subject to be passed in together with the musical degree ? — I believe at present something else is re- quired. 864'. {Dr. Bellamy.') Might not something corres- ponding to responsions be required? — Y'es. 865. If besides that you insisted upon their resid- ing here and obtaining instruction here, you could hardly keep up the difference as regards the degree ? — I should not insist upon their residing here. I would attract them, but not insist upon their residing. The witness withdrew. OXFORD. U. Nettleship, Esq., M.A. 24 Oct. 1877. J. Cook Wilson, Esq., M.A., Fellow of Oriel College, examined. 866. {Chairman’) We learn from Mr. Monro that you studied for some time at a German university, and we should be glad to be favoured with any informa- tion which you can give us as to the results of your observation of the German system of teaching ? — The thing which struck me most was the superiority of their system in lecturing. Plere we have two combi- nations of lectures which do not include quite all the colleges, and they do not work at all upon the same system in respect of the lectures, the subjects, and so on, whereas in the university at Gottingen where I was, the lectures were well arranged and there was a perfect system, accessible to all the students in the university, so that we Avere not troubled so much with the clashing of lectures or the inability of a student to go and hear a lecture that he wished to liear. 867. That is to say they were arranged at such successive times that you could hear them all ? — Yes, or nearly so ; and not only that, but they Avere acces- sible to all the students in the university ; that is to say, the good teaching of the university is equally accessible to every student, Avhich is not the case here. 868. Were the classes very large ? — They varied. Some of the more important professors had very large classes. Much depends upon the subject ; for instance, in some of those subjects which are connected Avith Avhat Avc know under the name of comparative philo- logy there were only six men ; whereas in Professor * * * course of philosophy, there Avas an attend- ance of perhaps sometimes about 100 or 150; but the lecture showed a variation from a cause which is to be found here also. If the professor Avas an examinator, tlien he got more students, and that Avas striking enough in tl c case of Professor * * vvho is one of the chief German philosophy professors, and has a very charming delivery. The students hear him generally with enthusiasm, but when he ceased to be an examinator the large number of students decreased very sensiljly. 869. What is the Avhole number of students in that university ? — It varied very much while I Avas there ; it is put doAvn in the books sometimes as an average from 800 to 900, but in my time there were 1,300. 870. I believe there is no collegiate teaching at all, or anything answering to the tutorial system of our college? — There is a something between the professor and the students, but not at all to the same extent as in our colleges. There are betAveen the professor and the students people called repetenten and privat- docenten. 871. Are they assistant professors and private teachers ? — No, you Avould hardly call them assistant professors. Perhaps the professor extraordinarius ansAvers more to assistant professor ; it depends upon Avhat you mean by assistant. 872. {3Ir. Bernard.) What is the office of the repetent? — I do not knoAv that the office exists in every faculty. At Gottingen it Avas only in the theo- logical faculty. The office of repetent, I think I may roughly say, Avas rather to lecture as Ave should say in Oxford on the books of the subject ; and perhaps the corresponding professor took the subject more gene- rally. 873. Who appoints the repetent? — The repetent is appointed by the faculty. 874. Is he a kind of reader? — Yes. 875. Is the privat-docent appointed by anyone ? — The privat-docent has to have a license from the faculty of the university Avhere he lectures. 876. {Chairman.) Does the privat-docent corres- pond with a pivAmte tutor ? — Not exactly. It is very difficult to draw a comparison between them. The privat-docent is rather a lecturer Avho is independent of, and Avho competes not unfrequently Avith, the pro- fessor, a fact Avhich I think the German professors acknoAvledge as being to their benefit, it stimulates them, and keeps them up to the mark. 877. {ProJ. Smith.) Does a privat-doeent take fees ? — Yes. 878. He is commonly an aspirant to university office, is he not ? — Y^es, to a professorship. I have been asked about private tuition, there is something betAveen the professor and the student. I do not mean a man so mucli as an institution, an institution called the societiit, that is a sort of clas;. The professor does not lecture very formally, but from inquiry which I made I could not find out that it Avas a very suc- cessful institution or that it Avas very largely attended. The professor to whom I spoke about it told me that it varied very much with the universities. Tlie thing is most successful, I am told, at Berlin. 879. {Chairman.) Are there many professors in each faculty or class of subjects ? — There are no t J. C. Wll307t, Esq., M.A. G 4 56 UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J. C. Wilson, Esq., 31. A. 24 Oct. 1877. very many in any single university, bnt if one wishes to hear a professor there are a hundred professors to choose from in the many universities. In Gottingen, where I was, in the philosophical faculty there were three ordinary professors, one extraordinary professor, and two privat-doce/iten, and I think there was no other means of teaching ; but the professor represents a good deal more work than our professor, ii\ this way, that the student has a longer lime (o attend his lectures in, so that a pi ofessor stands for two professors here, supposing they lectured the same number of times. A student takes two years or two years and a half, say, here for his course in philosophy, whereas in Germany he can have four. 880. {Dr. Bellamy.) Is it usual for them to be so long at the university as four years? — Yes, they must be from eight to nine semesters as a rule. 881. {Chairman.) Those who devote as many as four years to study are a class of students, I presume, which makes literature their profession ? — Yes, quite so ; sometimes they get through quicker than that. 882. {Mr. Bernard.) The quadriennium may be necessary for some professions, and the triennium necessary for others ? — I think it is so. 883. {Chairman.) Are the students all required to attend those lectures in order to be admitted to exami- nation ? — That I cannot say with certainty, bull know that the professor is obliged to give them a testimonial of having attended his lectures, and I suppose that must be the purpose of it. 884-. {3Ir. Bernaj’d.) Are there university exami- nations other than for the doctorate ? — No, not that I know of for university purposes. 885. You spoke of the examiuator and the import- ance of a man's being an examiuator as regards the number of persons attending his lectures. I should wish to know if you can tell me to what extent ex- aminations exist in the German universities? — A most remarkable difference is that a man can be examined almost when he likes in Germany, so that an exami- nation takes place often in the term, and the men are not classed therefore in the same way that ours are. The students receive a certiffcate answering something to the certificate that students receive here of the first, second, or third clas< ; that is to say, there are gra- dations or something of that sort, but then there is not one fixed term in the year when all are examined together. 886. For what degree do the certificates count ? — F’or the doctor’s degree. S87. And that only ? — I do not know of any other degree. 888. {Brof. Smith.) Is it a substantial and dif- ficult examination ? — Yes. I have not been long enough in Germany to be sure, but I gathered that a great many more men go away without a degree than is the case here. 889. {Chairman.) I presume if it is only a doctor’s degree, the degree is not desired except by those who mean to be teachers ? — Precisely so. 890. {Mr. Bernard?) Does not every advocate throughout Germany take the degree of doctor of law? — I am not aware. It seemed to me that ihe effect of the examination taking place at any time was that the competition was not at all felt as it is here, because the men were not massed. 891. {Prof. Smith.'^ Does the preparation for ex- amination form a considerable part of a student’s business at a German university ? — Y'es, but in a different way I think to what it does here. The professor is often the examiner, and the student goes to his lectures, so that a part of the preparation for the examination consists in carefully attending the professor’s lectures. 892. ( Chairman.) How many different schools are there, following the division that we have here into the literm humaniores school, the mathematical school, the natural science school, the modern history school, jurisprudence, and so on ? — 1 cannot sa} exactly the number, but there is the theological faculty, and then there is the philosophic faculty, which includes a great many ; it includes, for instance, mathematics, natural science, and so on. 893. {Dr. Bellamy.) To obtain a doctor’s degree in Gottingen they have not to be examined in all those subjects whith are included under philosophy ? — No. 894. Moral and mental philosophy and natural science all go under the head of philosophy, do they not ? — They are all philosophy, and the faculty of philosophy is divided up into subordinate faculties. At Gottingen there are three ordinary professors and one extraordinary professor of philosophy. 895. That would not include natural science, would it? — No, what they call pure })hilosopli 3 '. 896. For natural science have they many pro- fessors? — I cannot speak with certainty about that. At the university' where I was there were many certainly. 897. {Mr. Bernard.) Several German universities have their specialty. 'What is the specialty of Got- tingen ? — I noticed that many foreign students seemed to come for medicine. 898. There are other specialties in other univer- sities ? — I do not know how that is. 899. {Dr. Bellamy.) Of the private teaching which the tutors in Oxford undertake there is nothing at all, such as looking over papers and that kind of special teaching? — I do not know anything about that. I never saw or heard anything of it. I wrote to a German professor', a friend of mine, for special infor- mation, which, I am sorry to say, has not come yet, but I should be glad to communicate it to the Com- mission when I receive it. 900. (Dr. Bernard.) Who fixes the subjects of examination ? — In philosophy', for instance, the faculty settles all about that. One part of the examination in Germany, an important part and the only paper work, I believe, is the dissertation which is written by the students, and the principal professors in the faculty generally advise him what subjects to take. 901. Is the examination otherwise conducted viva voce for the doctorate ?— Yes, and a student may write a vei'y good dissertation and y et may' fail in viva voce. 902. {Dr. Bellamy.) Is the dissertation part of the public examination or is it written at home ? — It is written at home. 903. And very often it may not be altogether original ; does he ever get assistance in writing it ? He should nut, but there is no test of that. 904. {3lr. Bernard.) We have heard a good deal of the effect of examinations in limiting the range of a professor’s work and tending to keep down the level of his teaching; that effect would not be pi'oduced, I suppose, where the professor himself determined the subjects and tire mode of examination, as when he conducted the examination himself viva voce ? — Yes, that seemed to me always the great difference. I do not think it is quite so strong as you put it. He is of course under the moral influence of his colleagues. The professor’s lectures are attended sometimes (I have not noticed many instances, but I have noticed the fact) by very senior men, men who are simply studying the subject for its own sake, without refe- rence to being examined at all. 905. {Earl of lledesdalc.) What is there in the system of teaching at the German universities that differs from the system in this country and which you think might advantageously be introduced here ? — lam a very' junior member of this university, and therefore I hardly like to offer such a wide suggestion ; but as I said first, what we want is to make our force available as the Germans make theirs. It seems to me that we teach at great expense, and that the force is only directed on a few points, whereas a German student can go and hear anyone he pleases, and have the best teaching. 906. {Prof. Smith.) You wish for a better oi'gani- sation of the system of lectures which would render them practically available to all the students in the university? — Yes, and also some sort of control over UNIVERSITY- OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 57 the times wlien tlie subjects come on by the different lecturers. 907. {Mr. lientard.) fs that managed in Germany by arrangement amongst the members of the facidty ? — I tliink so. 1 do not know that there is any other restriction. 908. It appeared to you that it was somehow arranged and the lectures fell into their pl.aces ? — Yes. For instance, one professor in philosophy lectured in logic and the other lectured in pschology, and so on. But more important than this mechanism is the fact that the lectures are o])en to all members of the university. 909. W e have been told that the duties of a pro- fessor in Germany are compatible with the pursuit of what is now called research, whilst in Oxford it is impossible to make them compatible with that work. I do not know whether you feel that that difference exists, or if you do feel it, whether you are able to account for it? — I certainly feel that the difference exists, that is to say, that the professor does not seem to l)o hampered in the same way. I am afraid T do not know enough about Oxford professorial teaching, but a professor in Germany does not seem to bo so hampered by the necessity of examination ; but that is partly due to two things, the length of the semester and also the length of time that a student can give to a subject, by which means the professor can afford to say more, and he has not to condense so much as lecturers have to do here. We are always in a hurry, I think. 910. What is the length of the vacations in Ger- many ? — I cannot tell exactly. 911. {Chairman.) Is it six months in the year? — No, not so much as that. 912. {Prof. Smith.) The professor would probably be lecturing seven mouths in the year, would he not ? — Probably about seven months. Professor * * * lectured eight times a week. He had two courses of lectures, each of them four times a week ; but I should say that I have heard men complain very much of having to lecture so much. Professor * * ^vho has made his mark in literature and has written a great deal, complained very much of the time that was taken up in lecturing, and in examining, and in reading dissertations. 913. {Mr. Bernard.) In some universities, I know not whether at Gottingen, there is said to be a very great subdivision of the subjects in the professorial teaching. I rather collect from you that in the faculty of pure philosophy, at least at Gottingen, there was not a great subdivision r — In the faculty of [>ure philo- sophy there were not many professors, but still there was a good deal (d‘ subdivision in the subjects. As I said, the professor there represented the work of two professors here, from the fact that the student studied twice as long under them. 914. {Earl of Itedesdale.) How can it be said that the professors therefore have more time and more leisure for a research in Germany than in England? — I should have said they have not, and they were cer- tainly themselves under the impression that it was not so. 915. {Chairman.) Do those professors who are en- gaged in research introduce the results of their research into their lectures ; that is to say, do they lecture upon their own researches ? — I can only answer in the case of philosophy, and I should say distinctly yes. The lecture is the same in substance as the book which a man writes. 916. Then it would follow from that, would it not, that the lecture is not devoted to the earlier elements or the history of the subject, but chiefly as he is making progress himself so he teaches his class, pre- supposing the rest. Is that so? — I do not think that one can answer the question quite generally ; it depends upon the age of the professor very much and whether he likes teaching in the societiit. 1 said, I think, before, that the societiit was a small class in which the professor comments (in the cases that I am speaking of especially) on some book. When I was at Gottingen one professor had a societiit or a class on the ethics of Aristotle, and the following semester he had a societiit on Kant’s philosophical works, and in that there is a question and answer between the students and the professor. The professor explains and also asks for explanation. The societiit does not work always equally well. Some of the students are very shy, and do not say much. Professor * * * had given it up entirely, but he had been lecturing for 30 years. 917. {Mr. Bernard.) Has Professor * * * pub- lished much ? — Yes. 918. Do you think that the books which he has ])ublished have been in fact reproductions to a great extent of his lectures ? — I cannot tell whether the books reproduced the lecture or the lectures the books, because I came in the later part of his career ; but I know that his books are very much like his lectures. OXFORD. J. C. Wilson, Esq., M.A. 24 Oct. 1877 The witness withdrew. L. R. Phelps, Esq., B.A., Probationer Fellow of Oriel College, examined. 919. {Chairman.) You spent, did you not, a short time at a German university? — Yes, I spent the last two German “ semester ” in Germany. I spent the winter one at Leipzig and the summer one at Got- tingen. 920. Are you able to give the Commission your impressions of the comparative advantages of the system in use here and the system of teaching in use at those universities ? — The main impression, I should say, which was left upon my mind was, on the one hand, the far greater interest that the German stu- dents individually seem to take in their work, each man seemed to feel that his heart was in some one subject almost ; and on the other hand, the almost entire want of anything like a personal relation between the teachers and the students. 921. Are those two universities both conducted upon systems so similar that the same observations will apply to both of them ? — I should say so, so far as my knowledge of them goes. 922. What is the number of students at each of them, so far as you are aware? — The number at Leipzig, in the “ Sommer-Semester,” 1877, was 3,089, and at Gottingen, 1,002. 923. Has Leipzig any particular faculty to which it is chiefly devoted ? — I think its main excellence is the special teaching in law and medicine ; but I believe Q 6223. that the natural-science teaching there also is par- ticularly good. I have understood that the apparatus there is unequalled in Germany. 924. {Mr. Bernard.) What was your subject? — Philosophy, political philosophy generally. 925. {Chairman.) You spoke of the greater inte- rest of the students. Do the students represent relatively to the country and to their future lives and pursuits, so far as you know, the same classes as our students, or are they chiefly students that come in with a professional aim ? — They are derived from a far larger area than our students, and the difference between them would be rather this, that at the con- clusion of their career almost five-sixths of them have to go through a State examination to qualify them for almost any profession, either for a Government appointment or for such a profession as the law. 926. Would a large pro])ortion virtually be persons who were sent there not for general education, but for particular purposes, to qualify for Government appointments or for the law ? — 1 should say so. 927. Was there any considerable proportion of the literary class who woiddbe likely to make a pi-ofession of writing books in the way that the (Germans do, a class not so common here ? — That class I should say would be almost entirely confined to those who were studying for the professoriate ; but on the other hand H L. R. Phelps, Esq., B.A. 58 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. L. H. Phelps, Esq., B.A. 24 Oct. 1877. each student, besides the subjects that he was reading for his examination, seemed to take some special interest in some subject of a more general character. 928. Were the lectures of the professors generally of a different character from those which are given here, or were they similar ?— There is a great dis- tinction between lectures there of various kinds. The lectures are some of them wholly what we should understand by professorial lectures ; and on the other hand there are catechetical lectures in what is called the seminarium, which correspond more to what we should call the tutors’ lectures. 929. Which are the more important and most fre- quented ? — The professorial lectures are the more numerous. Certainly I never attended a private coarse, and I cannot speak from experience. 930. Are those professorial lectures, as a general rule, intended to teach the whole of the subject with a view to examinations, or do they teach it in a higher and more theoretical manner ? — Certainly in a higher and more theoretical manner, I should say. 931. So that they would coincide with any research which any individual professor might be carrying on ? — Yes. 932. Did it occur to you that there were any useful hints which we might take from them ? — I thought that the system of appointing to the professorial body there seemed almost the best that could be devised, and it struck me as particularly useful. The profes- sors are appointed by the minister of education on the recommendation of the faculty. 933. They are appointed by the Crown upon the recommendation of what we might here call the Board of Studies? — Y''es. 934. And that you think produces good results ? — Yes. Of course one heard at times complaints that justice had not been done in individual cases, and that other considerations came into play ; but I think, as a rule, it was admirably worked. 93,5. Are the examinations there as efficient as they are here, or should you say that the object of the examinations was chiefly to get a qualifying sort of degree ? — No, I should doubt whether they were, from the remarks which I have heard from students as they were reading for them. 936. Have they honour lists? — No, they have no honour lists ; there is nothing of that sort, I think. 937. Then there is no division of the students into passmen and classmen, or anything equivalent to that ? —No. 938. (Prof. Smith.) Do you think the want of a distinction between passmen and classmen an advan- tage or a disadvantage ? — The disadvantage of not issuing class lists, 1 think, is that it tends to lead men to specialise too early ; but I should think that on the whole it certainly produced better results. 939. {Mr. Bernard.) What examinations are you now speaking of, the examinations to which you referred at the beginning of your evidence as those which five-sixths of the men must pass through to enter professions ? — Yes, I am alluding to those, not to the doctorate examination, which is not of very much weight, but all the weight is attached to the essay which the candidate writes and has to show to the faculty. 940. For instance, a man entering the public ser- vice has to pass an examination, has he not ? — Yes. 941. And before entering the profession of an advocate he passes through an examination ?— Yes. 942. How are those examinations conducted ? — They have a special examination conducted by the board of professors of the university nominated by the Government. 943. Is that distinct from the doctorate examina- tion ? — Entirely. 944. Does the doctorate examination serve or assist a man in entering a profession or in passing other examinations ? — 1 should think in none except the educational profession. 945. Do you think that the lectures delivered at the universities are framed much with a view to the examinations to which you have just referred as qualifying for professions ? — I could hardly say with regard to the lectures, but there certainly was a greater tendency to attend the lectures of those professors who were examiners. 946. The fact of a professor being an examiner has been sometimes supposed to have a great effect on the number of his class Yes, that exists there too. 947. Should you say that it exists to the same extent as here ? — Yes, I think so, but I should hardly like to say at all definitelj'. 948. We hear sometimes of the greater freedom of the German professor in lecturing, which is attributed to the fact that he does not lecture with the same specific view to examinations as an Oxford professor is obliged to do ; is that your opinion ? — I can hardly say more as to the connexion between the two, than that certainly there was a feeling in the mind of the ordinary student that it was not any drawback to him to have attended the lectures of the professors that would examine him ; but I could not say, not having had any of the papers before me. 949. When you speak of the greater interest shown in learning and science by the students, is that merel)^ a fact which came before you, or could you ascribe it to any particular reason ? — No, I do not think that I could ascribe any particular reason for it. 950. It existed, you think, in the German mind ? — It was fostered a great deal by the system. 951. How ? — Because the man had so much more time to devote himself to one particular subject. 952. Do you mean that as the whole university career was longer, taking into account the shorter vacations in Germany, he had more time on the whole ? — No, I meant rather that he had not to give so much time to other subjects, and that he could spare much more time to his own special subject. 953. Was the examination which he had to pass there of a more specific nature than the examination here would be ? — No, but it was not nearly of so hard a character, I should think, as would be required in the high-honour examination here. 954. {Chairman.) We were told by Mr. Wilson that there was nothing like a general examination, but that each student may pass his second examination when it is convenient to him? — Yes, he could always call upon the faculty to examine him for his doctorate, but that does not aj)ply to the State examination. 955. The impression made upon my mind is that so far as the system is concerned it is more like what existed in this university before the beginning of this century, than that which has existed since the honour examinations were introduced ; do you know enough of the history of the university to speak upon that — No. 956. {Mr. Bernard.) Are there any certificates of honoirr which any of the students may obtain without passing a very good examination ? — I do not remember having heard of such a thing. 957. {Prof. Smith.) Considering the comparatively easy nature of the examination for the degree, did it strike you that there was more idleness or less idle- ness amongst the students either at Leipzig or at Gottingen than may be supposed to be the case in an English university? — 1 should think certainly that there is much more idleness in Oxfoi’d than in a German unversity. The men who came there avowedly not to study were quite marked men. 958. {Dr. Bellamy.) And that without any com- pulsion at all ? — Y’’es. 959. {Prof. Smith.) Was the attendance on lec- tures compulsory.^ — No, in no shape I think; in fact I think idle students never went to lecture at all. 960. {Dr. Bellamy.) Could they obtain their doctorate without attending lectures? — ^No ; but they never wanted to get it. 961. Could they go to the State examinations without a certificate of attending lectures ? — Yes, I think so, but I would not be sure of (hat. UNIVRKSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 09 96'^. {Chaintxin.) Do tlie students go to the uni- versity in Germany about the same age that tliey come here ? — I should think a year younger was the average. 963. Do tliey remain upon the average a year longer ? — No ; I should think three years was quite the longest that they ever stayed. 964. Mr. Wilson spoke of the time at Gottingen as being sometimes four years ? — .Some would stay longer, but 1 think that it was an exceptional thing to stay longer. 96o. {Mr. Bernard.) With regard to the numbers of the professorial or teaching body, were they at Leipzig greater in proportion or less, should you say, than at Oxford ? — 1 do not think I could answer that question. I could not calculate at all the force in Oxford. 966. What did you study in Leipzig ? — Philosophy, and political philosophy. 967. {Chairman^ What was the staff of teachers available in that subject at Leipzig ? — That would be very difficult to answer, because the philosophical faculty there includes pure classics. I could not say in what we call philosophy what the force was. 968. {Prof. Sniitk.) Did you ascertain the number and names of the professors who taught pure philo- sophy ? — Yes, I have the names of most of them. The best known at Leipzig are Professors Drobisch, Striimpell, K. Hermann, and Wundt. At Leipzig the figures as given in the Deutscher Universitats-kalender are : — Philosophische Facultiit. Professors (including Privat-Docenten) - 85 Students ----- 1,095 In pure philosophy : Professors - - - - 15 but no record of the number of students. At Gottingen : — Philosophische Facultiit. Professors - - - - 65 Students- . - - - 474 In pure philosophy. Professors - - - - 5 969. {Mr. Bernard.) Would a man teach classics, we will say, in one semester and pure philosophy in another, or would he always confine himself to teach- ing pure philosophy ? — He would always confine himself to teaching pure philosophy, I think. 970. {Chairman.) Mr. Wilson spoke of the organi- sation of the system of lectures as being very good at Gottingen ; we understood him to say that the arrangements made for the delivery of lectures by different professors in each branch were such as to facilitate the attendance of students more than is the case here, did you find it to be so ? — Yes, I think it seemed to be arranged with great care, so that there were certain lectures which were so arranged that the students of all the faculties could go to those which were thought to be more general than others, but I do not remember being particularly struck with the arrangement. 971. {Prof. Smith.) You never found the lectures which you wanted to go to yourself clash with one another, did you ?— Yes, I did. '972. Was it at Leipzig or Gottingen that you found that ? — -At both, I should say, but then the numbers were so large in any suliject that I could have chosen, that of necessity they clashed. 973. {Dr. for an hour ; Yes. Bellamy.) Y'ou never were lectureless you could always go to a lecture ? — 974. {Mr. Bernard.) If the number of lectures on any subject was large, is the explanation of that that there were a good many persons lecturing in it, or that the persons lecturing gave a great number of lectures, or both ? — At Leipzig both was the case ; at Gottingen the latter only. 975. At Gottingen the lecturers gave a larger number of lectures, and at Leipzig they gave a great many lectures, and there were also a large number of persons lecturing ? — Yes. 976. Were there different classes of teachers among those lecturing on philosophy ; were they different classes of professors, for instance? — Yes, they were divided into ordinary professors and extraordinary, and the privat-docenten. 977. Would you say what an extraordinary pro- fessor is ? — An extraordinary professor is a recognised member of the teaching staff of the university, which would differentiate him from the privat-doeent ; he is on the foundation, so to speak, of the university. The three ranks are in the following relations : the privat-doeent is paid nothing by the university but depends on his fees. The extraordinary professor is paid a small salary and depends mainly on his fees. The ordinary professor is paid a large salary and depends but little on his fees. 978. {Chairman.) Would he correspond with a reader here ? — Yes, he would correspond more with him than anything else. 979. {Mr. Bernard^) Did he hold it for an un- limited period ? — Yes, some of them remained till their death ; but a man generally hopes to become an ordinary professor. 980. {Earl of Redesdale.) You say that you think there is more idleness at Oxford than in a German university. Do you think that there is anything in the practice of a German university that has a ten- dency to correct idleness P — No, there is nothing like discipline. 981. Then it is entirely dependent upon the character of the pupils ? — Entirely. 982. {Chairman.) There is not the same kind of social life, I presume, as there is under the collegiate system ? — No, there is hardly anything of that at all ; the only source of social life is the students’ clubs. 983. Whatever inducement to idleness may arise from that source is absent there ? — Yes. OXFORD. L. R. Phelpf, Esq., B.A. 24 Oct. 1877. 984. {Prof. Smith.) It is rather a difficult question to answer ; but did it strike you that the education re- ceived in a German university gave more cultivation or less cultivation than the education which is received in an English university ? — I should say that there are certain exceptional individuals in an English university who might derive more cultivation from it, but that the average in Germany derive more than the average here. 985. {Earl of Redesdale.) I presume you would say that that is from the character of the individual ? — Very much so, I should imagine. 983. {.Mr. Bernard.) You are not able, perhaps, to judge whether their great zeal for knowledge was to be attributed in any way to the system of school education in Germany ? — No, I could not judge of that at all. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow, at 10 o’clock. 60 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Thursday, 25th October, 1877. PRESENT : The Right Honourable LORD SELBORNE in the Chair. The Right Hon. The Earl of Rehesdale. 1 The Ref. James Bellamy, D.D. The Right Hon. Montague Bernard, D.C.L. { The Rev. T. Vere Bayne, and T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretaries. OXFORD. T. E. Holland, Esq.,V.C.L., anil Sir IF. R. Anson, Bart., B.C.L. 25 Oct. 1877. T. E, Holland, Esq., D.C.L., Chicliele Professor of International Law, and Sir W. R. Anson, Bart., B.C.L., Vinerian Reader, examined. 987. ( Chairman.') Tlie Commissioners propose first to hear Dr. Holland, and then if Sir William Anson wishes to express a difference of opinion upon any point, after hearing what Dr. Holland says, he will have the kindness to do so, and to add whatever he is himself disposed to add. I hold in my hand a paper supplied to us by Dr. Holland, and shall be very glad if he will deal with the subject in the order in which it is there laid down. ( To Dr. Holland.') I see that the first portion of your paper is preliminary matter, chiefly relating, I think, to the objects with which the law study is now prosecuted here, and to the degrees. Perhaps you will first state what you think desirable as to the objects of the study ? — I am niucli obliged to your Lordship. I wish to begin by mentioning the increasing ini])ortance of the study here, which is perhaps not thoroughly understood by some persons ; and 1 wish to point out that law is studied here for two purposes, as you will observe in my notes. First of all an arts course may be concluded by passing an examination in various branches of the law. This, in my humble opinion, is to be regretted. A course of general liberal culture is cut short, and a special line of education is entered upon at an earlier date than used to be the case. 988. You mean that instead of taking up for the final degree anything else, it is sufficient to take up law ? — It is now so. After moderations you may turn your attention to theology, law, and a variety of special topics ; that is an innovation. Between the years 1853 and 1872 it was possible to pass a portion of your final examination in law and history, but since 1873 it has been possible to pass that examination entirely in law, so that the present system has been in working since 1873, namely, four years. Although I regret this, I do not think that it is possible to alter the present system. There is an impatience in people of continu- ing so long at the university as would be necessary to study law after one’s degree in arts, or of studying sub- jects of general education merely up to the time when one leaves the university ; people will not do it. They want to begin their practical life sooner. The result is that this jurisprudence school is growing in popu- larity very i apidly, and the only danger in fact, as it appears to me, is that pressure will be put upon the examiners and the Board of Studies to make the examination too practical, too much of a mere pre- paration for after life, and not sufficiently liberal and fitted to be part of a geneial education. I would just mention that I believe 3 our Lordship has sum- moned Mr. Wilson to give evidence to-day. Mr. Wilson, I know, has given great attention to the sta- tistics of this examination to the number of students going in for it, which is much larger than is generally supposed ; and I therefore will not dwell upon that point. Then besides this way of jiassing your arts degree in law, there is the old law faeulcy of the univer- sity, which always has been a special professional course of study subsequent to the arts course. Now I do not know whether I need mention to the Commis- sioners what the present course for that is, perhaps it may suffice to hand in the notice issued by the Board of Studies as to the topics which are examined in. 989. Is there a special examination for the degrees in law ? — There is an examination for the bachelor’s degree, w'hich is a pretty severe examination. 990. Not for the doctor’s degree ? — Not for the doctor’s degree ; and that appears to me to be the right eourse. I think that there ought to be a serious essay, or thesis, written for the doctor’s degree, but that it is not suitable at the age to which a man has then attained that he should be called upon to pass an examination in the ordinary way. I have noticed the effect of that in my experience in the university of London ; they there examine for the doetor’s degree as well as for the bachelor’s degree. The result is that very few candidate.s come in. In one year perhaps we had two, and in another year none at all; they evidently were in a false position and the system worked badly. Sometimes the men who came in did not pass ; it was quite a contrast to the bachelor’s examination, which was very satisfactory. Now I conceive that the course of study in our law faculty is capable of being made extremely useful if worked into the modern requirements of the Inns of Court, the professional examinations in London. If a man who passed his examination here could be relieved of any further examination in London there would be a better prospect of m.en continuing tbeir law studies here. At present this course is very naturally not so w'ell attended as the course of the jurisprudence school for the degree of baehelor of arts ; because a man has to stay up here and pass further exami- nations, and he goes to London and gets very little credit for these examinations ; they make him go through other examinations, and examinations! am told of a very inferior quality. Our test for the degree of bachelor of civil law is tar higher than any test wJiich can be, in tbe nature of things, imposed upon the profession generally by the bar. 991. {Dr. Bellamy.) Even to pass — Yes. I would therefore suggest that it would be a great boon to the Oxford civil law degree if it were recognised by the bar as sufficient for a call. In order to do that it would no doubt be necessary that the Inns of Court, or the authority in London, whatever it was, should have some control over the examination; I think that they should have the appointment of one or more examiners. I should mention that it turns quite as much upon English as upon Roman law, in fact it always has been, to a certain extent, the theory of the civil law degree here, that a man should know some- thing of the application of the Roman law to the English law. 1 then think that the examination for the bachelor’s degree should be cut into two portions, that the former portii n should be the more theoretical, dealing with Roman law and the cognate topics; and that the latter, which ought not to be passed until at least a year later than the first examination, should be passed almost exclusively in English law, and it is there that the delegates of the Inns of Court ought, I think, to come in and sit with the Oxford examiners, and be UNIVERSITY OE OXEORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ()1 thoroughly satisfied that our degree is in English law all that they require, as far as examination goes, with a view to a call to the bar. I have ventured to point out to a certain extent what is going on here in order to indicate the importance of assisting the study, and that there is really a great deal going on, as your Lordship will see when the statistics are laid before you, with which I will not deal. Now, assuming that the study is really a very important one here, and is capable of great extension, and will need more afterwards than it now actually requires, what are the needs of the study? I have drawn them out under certain heads. First of all the improvement of the teaching staff. The teaching of law has entirely passed out of the hands of individual colleges here. No college can, for the few law men who are reading in each college, afford to keep a teacher of law specially. The teaching is carried on first by the professors, and secondly by what I may call intercollegiate lec- turers, that is to say, by gentlemen who take three, six, or more colleges, and look after all the law men from those colleges. Some of them give lectures in a professorial manner, and they also give individual attention to students. In the latter capacity they are, in fact, a sort of law tutor, looking after the individual man’s needs. Besides that, thirdly, there are private tutors. I do not think that they play a very important part in the law studies here at present. Now the professoriate, we think, needs a considerable increase. Last year the Board of Law Studies here handed in to the Council of the university a statement of what they thought were the requirements of the profes- soriate. 992. {Chairman.) I observe that in the year 1873 they asked for four lecturers in the whole, and in the last paper they ask for six additional professors ? — Yes. I think that I can explain the discrepancy. In the first place (though this is not a very important cause of the difference), the Board is to a great extent differently constituted. But the more important cause of the difference is that in 1873 the study of law here was only beginning to develope itself ; it was in that year that the separate examination for the first time took place in the jurisprudence school. I do not think it was at all realised how. considerable the study of law here was going to be. I think that the report of the 20th June 1876 represents generally the opinion of the professoriate and of the legal examiners at the present day. 993. The Hebdomadal Council have recommended one professor of Oriental law, and two or more readers ? — Yes. 994. In the report which we have from the Heb- domadal Council, that seems to be the result at which they have arrived, as far as recommendation goes ? — Yes. 995. {Mr. liernard.) The separate examination in law I think began in 1872, did it not? — The statute was passed in 1872, but the final separation did not take place until 1873. There was a concurrent exami- nation in the earlier term of that year, but the thing was not developed until later. 996. I observe that in 1672 there was an examina- tion in law and history combined ; but there was also a separate examination in law and one in modern his- tory ; that is to say, some of the candidates who had been reading for the combined school were examined in both, while those who had been preparing for the separate schools were examined separately ? — Yes, there was a concurrent examination, but in Easter Term, 1873, the system, for the fi.rst time, was put into full working ; there was no combined examina- tion in law and history, but a separate examination in each subject. I should wish to endorse the proposals of the Board of Studies of 1876. I do not know that we can expect to get everything there mentioned at an early date, but anything less than that eventually I think would not be satisfactory or worthy of the University of Oxford. 997. {Chairman.) You propose to have two pro- fessors in each of two subjects, namely, jurisprudence OXFORD, and civil law ? — Yes. ^ 998. Four professors of English law, one jjrofessor of international law, and one of Oriental law ? — Yes. and Sir II' li’ 999. That would be an addition of one j)rofessor of Anson. Bart’ jurisprudence, one professor of civil law, three pro- B.C.L. fessors of English law, and one professor of Oriental law, making six altogether ? — Yes. An Oriental law professor is now on the point of being aj)pointed by the university. They have agreed to it for the benefit of the Indian candidates. He is to be a reader of Oriental law. I may say that the study of Roman law here is at present the most important of all branches of law. It is made the ibundation of the whole thing, and more Importance is given to it in examinations than to anything else ; but the present university provision for teaching it is quite inade- quate ; there is only one professor, namely, the regius professor. 1000. In your experience is it clearly shown that it is advantageous to separate the professorship of Roman law from the professorship of jurisprudence ? — No doubt the topics run a good deal into one another ; but I think u e are of opinion that there is room for a separate professor of jurisprudence and comparative law, which is the chair now held by Sir Henry Maine. But besides that, some of us think that there should be at least a reader who would take the class through the drudgery of analytical jurisjjru- dence. It is rather an uninviting subject, but it is a thing which men ought to go through early in their career. In German universities there are generally courses of lectures on encyclopadie and methodologie, that is, the mapping out of the whole field of law which men subsequently have to cultivate. I think that the reader on jurisprudence, besides teaching the so-called analytical juris[)rudence of Austin, might very well take men througli that kind of preliminary view of the field of study which they have to culti- vate afterwards. 1 do not know whether your Lord- ship would wish me to make anj further observations upon the list of professors. 1001. How do you intend this duplication of pro- fessors, without any attempt to limit each professor to any separate part of the general subject, to work. Take the case, for example, of the two professors of jurisprudence? — I think that our notion was that one professor should do the sort of work which Sir Henry Maine is now doing ; that he should investigate the origin of society, and possibly deal also with compara- tive law ; and that the second reader would take analytical jurisprudence, and also, in my opinion, he ought to take the question of the arrangement of law. 1002. Then although the word “ professor ” is used there, your view seems to incline to this, that there should be one principal professor, and a second who would be a reader or assistant professor, who should take a department more or less under the control of the chief professor, or of the board. Is that so ? — I think that we meant that there should be some difference in the status of those two professors. Your Lordship will see at the end of our report that we do not discuss the distinction between professors and readers. 1003. In No. 4 you say “ The board are of opinion “ that each professor ought to be appointed to some ‘‘ one of the above departments, but that it would be “ undesirable to limit his teaching to any particular “ part or branch of such department except as is “ specified under the third head”? — Yes, I do not agree with that section myself; I must say I think it a mistake. 1004. {Mr. Bernard.) Jurisprudence means very different things, does it not ? — 1 think that it is a very vague term indeed, one of the vaguest terms employed in law. 1005. I observe in the authorised statement as to the subjects of examination in this school that under the head of “ general jurisprudence” it is stated that candidates shall be examined in the principles of jurisprudence, in the theory of legislation, and in the H 3 (52 UNTVEKSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. T. E. Holland, Esq., D.C.L., and Sir W. li. Anson, Bart., B.C.L. 25 Oct. 1877. early history of legal institutions ? — Yes, that is in the jurisprudence school. 1006. One of those, I suppose, you would call analytical jurisprudence; the theory of legislation is something distinct from that, and the early history of legal institutions again something distinct from the other two ? — Quite so. 1007. All those things really pass in current language under the term “general jurisprudence ”? — Y^es. 1008. [Chairman.) What is meant by “ the theory of legislation ”? — We rather meant to refer to Bentham’s writings for that ; the objects to be aimed at by the legislature, and the way of carrying them out. 'J'hat, of course, raises all sorts of political and social questions, and also the question of the expression of the law, codification, and so forth. 1009. [3Ir. Bernard.) Dumont’s Bentham has been the ordinary text book here ? — Yes. 1010. With regard to having two professors with- out a separation of their studies, is that the case in the subject of modern history ? — There is no statutory separation of subject between the different professors of modern history; they, I think, merely arrange among themselves. It so happens that they have different tastes. 1011. {Chairman.) Y"ou have no preference then for having two co-ordinate professors on the same subject ovei the plan of having one professor, and a reader under him ? — I do not think that the reader ought to be under the professor in any sense. 1012. I do not mean under his control, but holding a subordinate office ? — I think that that distinction might be useful in some cases. I think that in the case of the Roman law professorships they both sliould be full professors, and probably ought to have the field divided between them by statute. 1013. How would you propose to divide it ? — I am not prepared to give a final opinion upon that point. I think that the history of Roman law, for instance, would naturally fall to one of them, and the relation of Roman contract law to English contract law, to the other ; but I have not considered the details of the question. 1014. Oriental law, I suppose, means practically the different laws which we have to administer in India ? — Yes, I think that that is practically put in for the assistance of the Indian candidates. I do not think that the law professors would otherwise have cared for it. 1015. {Mr. Bernard.) Is it not defined, more or less, in a statute now passing through congregation ? — I am not sure about that. I think that it is defined as the law in force in the British dependen- cies. 1016. {Chuiiman.) If it means the law in force in the British dependencies there are a great many other laws than those affecting the Indian dependencies ? — Yes ; I mean exclusively those. 1017. {JSIr. Bernard.) It includes, with Indian law, the systems of land tenure and land revenue, does it not ? — 1 forget whether that is specified. 1018. ( Chairman.) Will you proceed with the pro- fessor’s duties. Do you think that they should include research and book writing ? — -Y’’es ; I meant there to say that I think that the full professors,, at any rate, ought not to be overburdened with lecturing. I think that a certain amount of lecturing is extremely useful for their own studies, but that they ought not to be so hard worked in that way as not to have considerable leisure for writing books. Of course there is a very great lack of books giving a scientific exposition of Roman or English law, written in English. The English law books are not such as are at all suitable for students, from their lack of method. And then there is the question of resi- dence, upon which I should like to say a few words. It seems to me quite impossible to have a proper staff of law professors here who are all to reside. I think that it would be very bad for the professors them- selves. I think that it is impossible for a professor of English law in particular to keep himself an fait at what is going on, unless he occasionally, at any rate, returns to actual prai.tice, or goes to London and mixes with men engaged in actual practice. Of course there is a danger as regards people who only come down from London and give lectures and go back. I think that there is a feeling in some quarters that they may make their practice paramount to their lecturing here ; there is no doubt a danger of that ; but I think that the danger, on the other hand, is still greater (in the case of English law at any rate) that a man would be wholly unreal unless he were in contact from time to time with actual practice. 1019. Do you think that any useful contact can be obtained without actual practice ? — I think that tre- quenting the courts, and even seeing one’s legal friends and moving about in the Inns of Court, and hearing the talk that constantly goes on there, is a great deal better than living here permanently and seeing nothing of all that. 1020. Are you speaking from experience ? — I feel myself that I get very rusty indeed in the legal way of looking at things, unless I occasionally (not so often as I should wish) refresh my mind by talking to my friends in London. 1021. But I suppose that without actually prac- tising, or attending the courts, you do not come into much real contact with the subject ? — I am talking rather of going to one’s chambers, which some of us still keep up to a certain extent, and meeting one’s old friends with whom one is in the habit of talking over law a great deal, and hearing law points discussed. I was not thinking so much of my own case, because my own professorship rather stands out of the line of actual practice. I was thinking more of the case of a professor of English law; it seems to me quite essential that such a professor should be in town from time to time; and I think that he should have sufficient leisure to enable him to go circuit occasionally, and put himself in the way of getting a certain amount of practice ; he cannot, I suppose, at the same time keep up his ordinary practice. 1022. What experience have you here of non- resident teachers ; there are Sir Henry Maine, and Mr. Digby, are there not ? — Mr. Digby has now resigned, he did so some years ago ; he was not able to continue the two things. 1023. Sir Henry Maine is not engaged in the practice of the law, but is engaged in other very important matters in London ; what is the experience in liis case, there can be no abler man ; are his lectures as effective as they would be if he were resident? — I think quite so for the subject with which he deals. I think that the professor of jurisprudence, as far as his subject goes, is more favourably situated if he has been at the bar for a certain time ; and I think that Sir Henry Maine’s lectures do not lose, but gain, by his living in London, because his experience at the India Office no doubt suggests many curious views of institutions which he here utilises in his lectures. 1024. How many lectures does he give ? — I do not know. I think that he made a return to a committee of tlie House of Commons. 1025. Under those circumstances, are the relations effectively maintained, which it is desirable to main- tain, between the professor and his class’? — I think that that may be a weak point of the arrangement. It may be rather difficult to maintain those relations, but I imagine not impossible, if the lecturer could manage to stay for some hours after his lectures. 1026. Is there not this prima facie objection, that it is not the principal business of a man’s life ? — There is that objection, which one must admit; but in the case of the English law professor I think that the gain preponderates over the loss. 1027. As I have indicated, I am at a loss to appreciate the academical gain which is to arise from residence in London, because a man practises at the bar, and if he does practise at the bar will not his own practice have the preponderating influence ? — Yes, eventually, and then he must resign, but in the inter- UNTVEIISITY OF OXFORD COMMISSfON : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 63 mediate time 1 think that you get better ideas out of tlie man, from the fact that he is going on witli his practice to a certain extent. 1028. Is it not also the fact that the longer a man goes on with his practice the more likely he may be to deviate from scientific, and to follow merely practical, views of the law ? -I think so. 1029. So that if your object for the university were to maintain a scientific spirit, would there not be some risk of its being interfered with if you relied upon men who were carrying on practice? — I think that after a time a man would be so absorbed in the details of his practice that he must give up lecturing altogether ; but in the meantime I think that his princij)les would receive illustration from his practice. Principles without some enforcement by actual practice are not at all fresh or vivid. 1030. With respect to research and book writing, I suppose that you have in view books of a scientific and academical character, rather than such books as are commonly written for the use of the practitioner ? — Yes. But I should think that books might be written for the use of the practitioner of a much higher type than have been written already. I think that I see signs of that being done ; take such a book for instance, as Mr. Dicey’s “ Parties to an Action,’ where the clearest ideas are in the most logical method applied to actual practice. 1031. We know that there are some eminent examples of books written very logically, but very technically ? — Yes. 1032. Do you think that those persons who are engaged in actual practice would be generally likely to read books of such a scientific tone as you would aim at in encouraging that branch of the professor’s work ? — I think that if their minds had been imbued with a certain amount of scientific training, they would go on taking that view of things and would appreciate books written in that way. 1033. The next point is whether occasional courses should be given ? — That has been hinted at in our ])revious report ; that in case there are funds at the disposal of the board, those funds should be so applied to a certain extent. 1034. It is recommended by the Hebdomadal Council generally as to all the schools, I think ? — Yes. 1035. {3Ir. lieinard.) This is the passage to which you refer : “ The field of legal study being very “ extensive it appears to the board that in addition to “ the ordinary lectures, competent persons might use- “ fully be invited, from time to time, to lecture at “ Oxford on particular portions of that field : and they “ suggest that a moderate yearly sum should be placed “ for this purpose at the disposal of the board of legal “ studies, or of the vice-chancellor, to be applied on “ the recommendation of the board’’ ? — Yes. I my- self have not much sympathy with that recommenda- tion, because I think that when, if ever, the teaching staff here is properly organized, there will not be much room for these occasional lectures, or much need of them ; they can do no harm, but I think they will not do very much good. 1036. {Chairman.) But the name which we were just now speaking of suggests that there might be special eminence not in the ordinary course. Sir Henry Maine, for example, is a great authority on certain subjects. In a case of that sort might it not be an advantage for a man of that kind to give occasional lectures ? — I think that the difficulty would be in getting your class. I think that you find in the case of occasional lecturers who now come here that there are objections of that kind. There are certain gentlemen who give three or four lectures upon some subject not generally taken up here, and I do not think that they get a class ; people are all so busy here with their work cut out, that they have not time to go to exceptional persons of that kind. 1037. The next point which you have noticed is with respect to the way of dealing with the inter- collegiate lecturers on this subject. Are the inter- collegiate lecturers on law the same gentlemen who lecture on other subjects, or are they quite distinct ? — They have become a distinct class. The thing has become so special that I think they do not lecture now on anything else. At one time they lectured on history also. As I think I have stated before, these gentlemen lecture professorially to a certain extent, that is to say, to classes, and they also have the law students of j)articular colleges placed under their supervision ; they are a sort of law tutor ; they see the men individually and tell them to what lectures they had better go, and they look over exercises for them, and generally speaking keep them up to the mark. 1038. How many gentlemen at present undertake that duty in the university in law ? — I think about six. 1039. {Mr. Bernard to Sir W. Ansoii.) I think that we have the advantage of your assistance in that character, have we not ? — I am not an inter- collegiate lecturer, but I superintend the studies in law of two colleges. I am not a lecturer for those colleges. I do not deliver any course of lectures which is open to the members of the combined colleges. 1 merely assign to them certain lectures to which I think they should go. 1040. You are rather a law tutor, without lecturing your pupils in the character of an intercollegiate lecturer ? — Yes. 1041. {Chairman to Dr. Holland.) Perhaps you will state what you propose as to these intercol- legiate lecturers ? — They having these two charac- ters of law lecturers and law tutors, I should like to see some of them, so far as they are lecturers at all, recognised by the university. It seems to me that if a man lectures to six colleges on jurisprudence, he might as well be a university functionary, and mighc devote his attention either to jurisprudence alone, or to it and some other branch of law, and lecture to the whole university ; to anybody who was willing to come to him. Besides that, there must also exist law tutors to give the students individual care. I am not very well qualified to form an opinion upon that point ; and there is a good deal of difference of opinion about it. 1042. Does law in that respect stand upon a different footing from other branches of academical study. In your view' is this a part of the (piestion as to law, distinct from the general question of col- legiate or university instruction ? — I think so, because it has got more into the hands of a special class of men. The old college tutor, to a certain extent, still exists, and teaches, 1 think, more than one topic ; but the law tutor teaches law and nothing else. I believe that the same remark applies to modern his- tory ; but I prefer to speak only with reference to law, because I am not very well acquainted with the organisation of the other branches. 1043. {3lr. Bernard.) I see no advertisement in the “ University Gazette ” of an intercollegiate lec- ture in law ? — There is something very analagous to it. 1044. In most of the other subjects there is an advertisement in the “ Gazette ” of the intercollegiate lectures ? — The fact is that they lecture on different principles in a very complicated way at present. 1045. ( Chairman.) What is the difficulty ? — There would be very great difficulty in finding the room to hold them. 1046. And that of course will increase? — We hope so. 1047. May there not possibly be some advantage in the elasticity of this intercollegiate system which has originated from the wants of the university, and which has found its own development in a natural way over anything which the university might undertake to make universal ? — I think it very fortunate that it grew up in a natural way, and answered a natural need ; but I think that things are now going beyond the possibility of that continuing. I think that Sir William Anson jiroposes to make some remarks upon that point, and 1 would rather leave it to him ; the system in fact will break down. H 4 OXFORD. r. E. IMJand, Esq.. D.C.L.. and Sir W. R. Anson, Bart., B.C.L. 25 Oct. 1877. G4 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. T. E. Holland, Esq., D.C.L., and Sir IF. II. Ansoyt, Earl., B.C.L. 25 Oct. 1877. 1048. Then your sug< 2 ;estion is that these lecturers who are now intercollegiate, should be made univer- sity readers ? — Yes. 1049. And that they should still do particular duty in their colleges? — It’ they chose to do so; or they might act as college tutors, if a college tutor in law is necessary •, upon which point there is a great diffe- rence of opinion. Some people think that it is an over-nursing of these students to have a special tutor to tell them what to do at every turn of their student career. I am rather inclined to think that these law tutors are necessary, for the inferior men at any rate, that without them they would not know where to go or what to do witli themselves ; but I think that eventually they ought to be dispensed with altogether when the' teaching is better organised, and the organi- sation is better brought home to the knowledge ot the students. In any case 1 do not think that the university is hound to provide those law tutors. It they are provided at all they must be provided by the colleges as now ; the university, 1 think, should pro- vide the law lecturers, and I think that that matter should be put to a certain extent under university control. lO.rO. I suppose that the law school has not been in efficient ojieration long enough for any books to be written expressly for it ? — I think that perhajis Mr. Dighy’s hook may' be said to have been written ex- jrressly for it ; it was written no doubt as the result of his lecturing here, and it no doubt is made a text book of the school ; whether he wrote it with a dis- tinct view to the school I do not know. {Sir IV. Anson.) I understood that he did. 1051. {Mr. Bernard.) Has not something else been done in the way of publishing, for convenient use, cer- tain jiortions of the Digest of Justinian, which taken altogether is a very bulky book ? ( Dr. Holland.) Mr. Shadwell and I have jniblished a series of the most important titles ; it is not yet complete ; we have brought out three parts. 1051o. {Chairman.) Is there anything further upon that subject which you wish to say ? — No. 1052. The next point is as to the organisation of the teaching body, and of the curriculum of study ? — Yes ; l)oth are now entirely fortuitous. The pro- fessors, and college lecturers, and college tutors, have no relation to one another at all ; it is quite a matter of chance if they ever meet ; we have tried to get them together without much success ; it is a very difficult thing, but no doubt their teaching would be far more useful to the university it in some way they were brought together and had a definite relation to one another and could put out a definite scheme of lectures. That leads me to the curriculunn At present the lectures are entirely haphazard ; each professor and college lecturer lectures upon what seems fit to him ; but I should think we should all be glad to modify our courses to a certain extent, if we thought that we were promoting the good of the study by it. W e could enter into a general scheme, and make it possible for a man to come in at some particular date in each year, say Michaelmas term, and find a com- plete two years’ curriculum before him. 105.3. You have a Board of Studies? — We have a Board of Studies into which the college lecturers do not come at all, as such ; it consists merely of pro- fessors, and of examiners in the jurisprudence school, those w ho are actual examiners and those who have been so during the last three years. Now many of our examiners are, I am happy to say, barristers from London, who come down and act as examiners and return to London, and very possibly never sit upon the board again. 1054. That has some hearing upon the question of resident or non-resident professors, has it not ? — I think that our non-resident professors would make a point of coming down to these hoard meetings ; they do so. rile board is bound to meet once a year by statute, in Michaelmas term ; as a matter of fact I should think that it meets once a term. 1055. {Mr. Bernard.) Has the Board of Studies any power to make arrangements with respect to the distribution of the subjects of lectures ? — None what- ever ; it deals entirely with the subjects of examina- tion. 1056. This, I think, is a statement of the duty of the Board of Studies. “ The Boards of Studies for “ the several schools shall exercise a general super- “ vision over the subjects of examination in these “ schools, and shall from time to time issue lists of “ books and subjects in each school ’’ ? — Y^es. 1057. W'hth respect to lectures, or arrangements for lectures, they have no power ? — No. 1058. {Chairman.) Would you recommend a com- pulsory power, or that they should arrange among themselves ? — I think that all professors and persons in that position should be compelled to meet together and confer ; I should not like to have any statutory power as to what they should do when they had met, I think that that might be left to themselves, and they would arrange things with one another. I think that it should be another body altogether from the present Board of Studies. I do not think that the examiners and the late examiners would be of any use in the meeting of professors and lecturers. 1059. Going back to the question of residence, has it ever occurred to 3 mu to consider whether the decline and virtual extinction of the study of the law in the university, may have been in any degree owing to the fact that the persons appointed to professorships were almost always resident in London, and practising at the bar ? — I think so ; and that the thing became an unreality altogether. I do not think that that wordd occur now' ; I think that it should be provided against by safeguards. 1060. Is there any instance which you know of a profes.sorsliip being very efficient when held by a non-resident ? — I'he regius professorship of civil law is now held by a non-resident, and the study of civil law under his care has prospered more than it has for many centuries past. 1061. That of course we know. But it is not safe to look to what happens at the particular moment when an active movement is going on, we must look a little more ahead than that. Not only a.s to law, but generally, is experience favourable to the expectation that non-resident professors will be efficient in the university? — I think that they are always under a disadvantage. It is only because I think that the advantage of non-residence outweighs the disadvantage in certain particular cases, in law especially, and in certain branches of law more especially, that I am in favour of non-residence. 1062. Would not they have a temptation to minimise the performance of their duty, I do not mean in a dishonest way, but as far as is consistent with their sense of that duty ? — Yes, and to a certain extent they must even when acting concientiously yield to that temptation. I would rather look to their resigning their chairs after a short tenure ; but they would have fresher ideas during that short tenure. 1063. {Mr. Bernard.) Have not non-resident lec- turers a particular temptation, namely, to lecture at inconvenient times ? — I am not certain that those hours are inconvenient. 1064. {Chairman.) The next point which you have noted is as to the concentration of the legal work in one locality ? — I think that a very important point. I think that there is a great waste of time, and waste in many way.s in having the work spread about. To a certain extent the theological element here is con- centrated in Christ Church ; there is the cathedral, and there are the canons ; and so the scientific people have their centime at the museum, where the professors have their studies and their lecture rooms, and their apparatus of all kinds ; and so I think lawyers need their centre for lecturing, and reading, and discussion. Now the needs under this head I have classified as four. First of all, what is needed in this concentra- tion of legal work is a law library. I think that the law library ought to be managed independently of the UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Co great library of this place, the Bodleian, and should be a special library managed by lawyers. 1065. You have iit All Souls’ a very excellent law library, have you not ? — A most excellent library, of which Sir William Anson is librarian ; and I do not intend to trouble your lordship with many words upon that subject, because he will follow me and knows more about it. We need, in the first place, a law library ; secondly, we need lecture rooms and pupil rooms ; by pupil rooms I mean rooms in which the professor or lecturer can see his men privately, hear them read essays, and talk to them ; thirdly, the teaching staff needs a centre, what one may call a social centre, where they can meet together, and talk, and hold their conferences ; and, fourthly, it is im- portant to have a place where this teaching staff is likely to meet men from the outer world. As I have said before, it is of the greatest importance that the lawyers here should have some opportunity of going to London and refreshing themselves by meeting London lawyers. So in a less degree it is important that when lawyers come down from London they should have some place where they can reckon on meeting the resident lawyers, and where the resident lawyers have a chance of meeting people from the outer world, men engaged in the practice of their own profession, or in other branches of public life. I am greatly afraid of the merely resident lawyer rusting in every way ; there is very little legal interest in the place ; it is confined to a few people, and those are scattered about at present. Now such a centre would be, of course very convenient to students ; they would pass from the law library to the lecture rooms, and to see their professors privately. It is also as necessary to the professors themselves as to the teaching staff. I may say that the question of lecture rooms, the second head under this division, was under the consideration of a committee of all the professors of the university at a recent date. That committee made a report to Council, to which an allu- sion will be found, I think, in the report of Council on university requirements; but unfortunately Council have not set out this document, which I venture to think is a highly important one. As they have not set it out, I do not know that I am at liberty to hand it in. I do not think that I am, though I have it by me in print. 1066. What is the impediment; does it depend upon the permission of some gentleman whom you have not yet consulted ? — It was a report from the professors generally to Council. Council have not published it, but have only alluded to it ; so that unless you ask me to put it in I do. not know that it is for me to pro- duce it. 1067. Do you suppose that if we were to ask the vice-chancellor to inform the Council that we should be glad to have it, they would have any objection ? — I think not the least ; and that it is a sort of accident that it has not been printed in their report. I think that it is a very important document. The professors were all requested to define their requirements in the matter of lecture rooms ; and to say how they were off for lecture rooms, and it was very curious to read their answers. Many of them are put to the most painful straits for places to lecture in. One professor has to lecture witliout seeing the whole of his class, they are in a side room, and he cannot see round the corner; that is, 1 think, one of the Christ Church professors. A number of us lecture in college halls, by the kindness of the college. We are there, of course, entirely dependent upon the hall not being required for the moment for any more strictly col- legiate use. If a college meeting takes place we have to turn out and do what we can. 1068. (A/r. Bernard.') What is your case at present? — 1 am fortunately not lecturing at present. Sir William Anson is lecturing, and he will tell you that he is turned out of his college hall, and is obliged to use another college hall by the kindness of another college. 1069. {Chairman.) What are the hours of the lectures? — We both lecture between 11 and 12 on Q 6223. alternate days at All Souls’, which is a great con- venience. 1070. At those hours I suppose the college halls would be free ? — In our case it is so, but in many cases the professor is allowed to lecture in the college hall only when it is not wanted by the college tutors, and he is occasionally turned out by the college tutors, and also when It is wanted for other purposes : the college hall is wanted for matriculations and other purposes. I think that there is only one university room available for law lectures, that in which Professor Bryce lectures, and it is exceedingly difficult for him to make himself heard there ; it happens to be a room at the top of the Clarendon building. There is no room really devoted to the professors of law. 1071. {Mr. Bernard.) For a professor in law it is specially important, is it not, to lecture in immediate proximity to a library on his own subject? — Highly important. 1072. {Chairman.) I thought that the Huiversity had buildings for all the ancient schools ? — They had at one time, but unfortunately they have...almost all been appropriated by the Bodleian library, or for examination schools. I suppose that at one time the professorial lectures nearly died out and the rooms were taken away. 1073. {Mr. Bernard.) What has become of the room in St. Mary’s, where I remember attending lectures ? — It is never used. I suppose that there is some reason against using it. Upon that point I should like to add, that even when you have your hall it is by no means a good lecture room in general. Our hall is better than most hails for our purpose, but you cannot have the tables moved about for your lecture ; they must remain as they are arranged for dinner ; the result is that the men sit sideways, not looking up towards you, and another result is that they have to bring their own ink and so on with them, which they may upset, and the whole thing is very ill arranged for a lecture room. A lecture room ought to be specially arranged for the purpose. 1074. {Chairman.) I suppose that we may now proceed to your suggestion of the way in which this want may be supplied? — Yes, I should say that if the sort of place which I have described where the library and lecture rooms, and so on, should be concentrated did not exist, it ought to be built by the university ; it is one of the first things to be attended to. I may refer to the university of Louvain, where the old colleges have been handed over to the different branches of study, one to the natural science depart- ment, and another to the law, and so forth. There is there a precedent for handing over collegiate institu- tions to the use of particular branches of study. For- tunately it is not necessary to build de novo a place for the use of lawyers. All Souls’, which originally, I believe, was mainly designed as a nursery for lawyers and men engaged in diplomacy, and other branches of public life, has always retained that character ; it lias always been the Oxford home of law ; and the late Commission confirmed it in that destination by founding there the professorship of modern history, and the professorship of international law. It has produced more regius professors of civil law than any other college. Now it already answers many of the requirements to which I have alluded, and it can be easily made to answer them all. First of all the library there has been specialized, I believe, owing greatly to the exertions of a late librarian, Mr. Robarts. There is a splendid old library there of civil and canon law, no doubt placed there for the use of the jurist fellows of former times, which has been supplemented by a modern English law library, and a foreign law library ; which, under the care of Sir William Anson, the present librarian, is becoming extremely useful. I will leave to him what has to be said more particularly on the topic of the library. I would only suggest that if the college were remodelled in any sense by the addition of more law professors, it would be still more obviously the appropriate body to manage this special law library. Perhaps after 1 OXFORD. T. E. Holland, Esq., D.C.L., and Sir W. J{. Anson, Bart., B.C.L. 25 Oct. 1877. 66 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. T. E. Holland, Esq., D.C.L., and Sir W. R, Anson, Bart., B.C.L. 25 Oct. 1877. hearing wliat Sir William Anson has to say upon the library, I may be allowed to corroborate him by expressing my own strong feeling that it ought to be an independent institution, and not merged in the Bodleian, which I think very incapable of managing it as effectively as it is now managed. 1075. Mr. Robarts has made that suggestion, and I have no doubt that we shall sooner or later hear his views upon that subject. You refer to All Souls’ as having been, in a special sense, the Oxford home of law. Were there not one or two other colleges in which a large proportion of the fellows used to graduate in law ? — It was so at St. John’s and New College. 1076. Was that owing to anything in their statutes which indicated an intention to promote the study of law ? — I have no doubt that it was ; but as a matter of fact more lawyers were raised by Ail Souls’ than by those other colleges. I had occasion lecently to look into the medireval history of the study of law, and I constantly found that the lawyers had been members ®f All Souls’. 1077. Merton, historically, has had some connexion with the profession ; some eminent lawyers have been members of Merton ? — I am not aware of that. There were a good many lawyers at New College, but Cranmer had a notion that All Souls’ was the natural home of law at Oxford, and he intended to remove the New College lawyers to All Souls’ and to put the All Souls’ artists in New College. 1078. At present what is there at All Souls’ for the purpose of lectures ? — The lectures are held in the college hall, on alternate days, by Sir William Anson and myself. We also see pupils in our private rooms. There is considerable convenience so far as lecturing in the hall goes ; I think that it is a great thing for the pupils and ourselves to have the library so close; they can pass from the hall to the library. Sometimes thej^ spend nearly the whole day in All Souls’ ; they go from the lectures to the library, and so forth. It is already to a great extent considered as the centre of legal study. 1079. If your view were adopted, what local arrangements would be necessary ? — I think that it is quite necessary to fit up certain rooms as lecture rooms ; to contrive that certain large rooms should be made in the college. There arc already one or two large rooms which I think might be used, and others probably might be constructed by removing partitions. Then I think that it is very important that not only ourselves, but also all the law professors, and possibly all the law lecturers, should have pupil rooms or studies assigned to them in the college. That is all that I have to suggest upon that point. 1080. Under the present arrangement of All Souls’, upon an average how many of the fellows are per- manently resident? — Would you there include married fellows living in other parts of the town, or only those residing within the walls ? 1081. I mean those residing within the walls? — I think that there are at present three or four. (.S7V William Anson.') There are three who maybe said to make the college their home. 1 082. Out of a total number of how many ? {Dr. Holland.) About 27 perhaps. 1083. 1 see that you have a suggestion as to some stipends which might be thrown upon All Souls’ ? — Yes, I think that the law professors generally might be thrown upon All Souls’. It would be in accordance with the destination of the college, and their being connected with the college would fit in altogether with the work of the place. Now it so happens that the regius professor is at present paid under a temporary arrangement by the university. They voted him for a certain number of years I think 300/. a year in addition to the 100/. which he enjoys under the old arrange- ment as regius professor. It did occur to me that it might be a suitable arrangement if the Commissioners directed one or more of our suppressed fellowships to be paid for that purpose. This temporary provision for the regius pi'ofessor will run out next year at about Midsummer, if 1 mistake not, and he will be left without the additional salary. If the Commissioners chose to direct the college to pay his salary, they would so far relieve the university from providing for him. In any case I should propose that eventually his salary should be paid by the college. I should also propose that the jurisj)rudence professor should be brought to the college from Corpus Christ! College, where he is now founded. Also that the payment now made by the university to the Vinerian professor should be taken on by All Souls’ ; and then that the new chairs which are found to be requisite should be founded in All Souls’. Probably all these professors should be made ex officio fellows of the college. In any case they ought to have a managing voice in the library. I think that they ought to be fellows of the college. 1084. There follows a suggestion as to other fellow- ships which might not be necessary for these pur- poses ? — I think that some prize fellowships should be retained. This point really arises out of what I was saying before, namely, the necessity of inter- course between Oxford and London lawyers. 1085. If you desire to reserve those fellowships for such a purpose it must necessarily have a bearing upon the fund available ? — Yes. I think that a certain number of prize fellowships should be retained termin- able at a conqjaratively short date, not only for the sake of encouraging a study of law and starting men in their profession, but also because it would incidentally fur- nish a fresh young legal society to the people resident here ; but I do not wish to enter further into the college question than to make that suggestion. 1086. The next head is the foundation of fellow- ships and prizes for the encouragement of the study of law ? — I think that certain fellowships ought to be reserved for law. All Souls’ fellowships are now given for the combined qualilication of law and history. It is very difficult to compare people in those two subjects, which are so different. I think that there should be special fellowships for law study, and also more prizes. I think that there should be prizes given for essays upon legal questions. 1087. You do not mean proficiency in law and his- tory as manifested by honours in the schools ? — No. 1088. The connexion between the fellowships of All Souls’ and the schools is only indirect ; — It is only indirect. There is a special examination for a fellowship upon the subjects recognised in those two schools. 1089. But it is not even required, is it, that they should have passed through the law school ? — No ; they must take some high honours, and they may take them in any school they choose. 1090. And those who may go into the law school need not do so before they are elected ? — Not if they have taken certain high honours in other schools. 1091. Do you think that that makes the en- couragement as strong as it would be if the prize fellowships were restricted to those who had passed through the law school ? — I do not think that it does, but on the other hand I should not like men to be so strongly encouraged as that would come to, to go into the law and history schools, because no doubt the old classical training is far better ; if a man will go through it and will have a year’s reading in those other topics afterwards it is better for him. 1092. But would it not be some discouragement to the law school if the principal prizes in law could be obtained without passing ihrough it ? — Yes, and that is the case now. 1093. {Mr. Bernard.) They cannot be attained without acquirement of a similar class ? — No. 1094. And in All Souls’ the acquirements tested are exclusively in law and history ? — Yes. 1095. {Chairman.) I see that you have some- thing to add generally upon the organisation of the professoriate ? — Upon that point I will only say a very few wwds. It does seem to me that not only in law, but in other topics, there is a great waste of power from the teaching not being brought under proper heads and departments. I should like to put in a list of the UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 67 professors aiTjuiged in faculties, in accordance with tiie iiistorical associations of the university, and also in accordance with the distinctions everywhere existing on the Continent, which I at one time got the university to put into the “ Gazette ” ; it seemed an innovation, and the previous state of things was reverted to. People did not understand the new grouping and did not like it. It was in accordance with the arrangement exist- ing everywhere on the Continent of Europe, except at our university and Cambridge. 1096. I have been rather struck at the absence of convenient information in the university calendar upon that matter. All the professorships are arranged in the order of their creation ? — Yes; I may add upon that point that I induced the university calendar also for one year to put in the list arranged, as I conceived, properly, but it also excited so much astonishment that they returned to the old system. 1097. {To Sir W. Anson.) You have heard what Dr. Holland has said, are there any points in his evidence upon which you do not agree with him ? — As to the professorship of analytical jurisprudence, I do not agree with Professor Holland in thinking that the study as now carried on presents a want which the university need supply by founding a chair upon that subject. As to the connexion of the professoriate with the bar, I do not attach so much importance to the professor or public teacher being in actual prac- tice ; but I do attach great imjtortance to his having practised, or having some familiarity with the mode in which the business is actually carried on in the profession. If he has that, it appears to me that a great deal of life is added to his teaching, and that he is able to present it to his students in a very different way from that in which a man would do it who had merely a literary and scientific knowledge of the sub- ject. If he has had some experience of this nature, and retains chambers in which business goes on in the hands of other members of the profession, he can, as it appears to me, without very much difficulty, keep him- self informed as to what is going on in the profession sufficiently to meet the requirements of his teaching up here. 1098. In connexion with that matter, what is your opinion upon the subject of residence? — I think that the teaching gains a great deal by the fact of the teacher being resident. There must always be an element of uncertainty about non-resident teaching, and there is a possible inconvenience with regard to the hours at which a non-resident teacher can come down and lecture ; and having regard to the class and character of the students with whom the law school has to deal, I should say that they were very easily turned aside from a professorial course of lectures hy any uncertainty or any inconvenience of hours. 1099. (Dr. Bellamy.) That is only a present diffi- culty. There is a belief that the law school will become very popular and very much frequented, is there not ? — The law school is now popular and fre- quented, but it is not frequented by the most ambi- tious or the most intellectual class of students. 1100. (Chairman.) Those are the only points in qualification of Professor Holland’s statement which you have to mention ? — Yes. 1101. Will you have the kindness to add whatever occurs to you as useful to be added ? — I would point out the course which a law student goes through, and the persons with whom he has to deal in his studies here. Every college, either among its own members or from some other quarter, possesses a law tutor. Professor Holland has said that there is. a doubt as to whether such a person is necessary for the student. I should say, from my own experience, that he was necessary, and I feel it so much that I have under- taken the duties of law tutor in two colleges in the present dearth of legal teaching up here, because it appears to me that the students will have very great difficulty in getting on at all, at any rate at the com- mencement of their studies, without someone who can by special and private tuition show them the path which they ought to follow. The law tutor secs the students at the beginning of every term, and arranges for them the course of lectures, and they are considered, as a matter of discipline, bound to go to the lectures which the law tutor assigns to them. If the college to which they belong is a member of the intercollegiate system they have the opportunity of going to the inter- collegiate lectures ; if it is not, the law tutor supplies the lectures himself, or the college finds other persons who will supply the lectures. Mr. Wilson, I helieve. is the law tutor in that capacity in several colleges, and he will be able to explain the mode in which the law tutor who has to do with colleges unconnected with that .system carries on his business. The intercollegiate lecturers deliver courses upon wdiich practically the study of law depends here. There are certain inter- collegiate lecturers whose lectures are, so far as I can see, so vital to the carrying on of the study, that if for any cause they left the university, there would be very great difficulty in conducting the law teaching. Then beyond the intercollegiate law lecturers there are the professors, and the professors as now constituted do not and cannot supply a curriculum of study such as is necessary for the proper education of the student in law. The reason why a regular course of lectures appears to be so necessary to the students is because, as I have said in. answer to a question addressed to me by the president of St. John’s, the students are not very capable of helping themselves ; they are not students who have distinguished themselves in the university. I should say that as a rule they have taken a pass in moderations. We have very often men who have unfortunately no taste for classics, and who consequently would have done very much better to have come up to the university a year earlier than they did, and to have sooner quitted a course of study distasteful to them, or they are men who have a practical object in entering a law school ; a very great number of them are intending to be solicitors. 1102. (Mr. Bernard.) Besides that, should you not say that a scientific study of law, up to a certain point at least, is a thing rather necessary in England ? — I should decidedly. The great want, so far as I can see, of the law teaching in the university at the present time is organisation. The law tutor has very great difficulty in finding a proper groove through which his pupils can be made to run. The intercollegiate lecturers are not necessarily bound by any system of lectures ; they lecture as they like. They are very often law tutors in their own colleges, and they consider the requirements of their own pupils in the stage in which they then are rather than the require- ment ol' any organised curriculum of study. It appears to me that organisation of this nature can only be supplied by the university, because it is only the university which can afford to bring men away from the bar to deliver a course of legal tuition ; and because, so long as the course is conducted by separate colleges, although on an intercollegiate systen), it is difficult to get any central authority to keep the inter- collegiate lecturer in a regular course of tuition. 1 103. Are you the only public lecturei' at present in English law ? — Yes, I am practically the only public lecturer. 1104. How long has that been the case ? — I do not know. 1105. What is the length of your tenure ? — Three years. 1106. May I ask your stipend? — My stipend con- sists of 250/., which is paid by Jesus College to the university, and the balance of the Vinerian fund when it is made up at the end of the academical year, which geuerally amounts to something just under 140/. 1107. Do you find any difficulty in dealing with so extensive a subject as English law, being the only public lecturer here upon the subject ? — I do find very great difficulty. I should find it impossible if I did not keep myself in communication with the most popular of the intercollegiate lecturers, and am to a certain extent able to arrange my subjects with him. 1108. Are the intercollegiate lecturers, for the most part, gentlemen who haVe [)iactised at the bar? 1 2 OXFORD. T. E. Holland, Esq., V.C.L., and Sir W. R. A71S071, Hart., B.C.L. 25 Oct. 1877. 68 UNIVEKSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. T. E. Holland, Esq.. D.C.L., and Sir W. R. Anson, Bart, B.C.L. 2.5 Oct. 1877. — Yes, my impression is that they have either practised, or have studied law in Loudon in cliambers. 1109. {Chairman.) Have you the means of making any comparison between the character of the lectures given here, and of those given by the tutors and lecturers of the Inns of Court in London ? — I have not. 1110. {To Dr. Holland.) Have you any means of making such a comparison ? — I only lieard Sir Henry Maine many years ago lecture in London. Of course his lectures were very admirable lectures. nil. {To Sir IV. Atison.) Will you proceed with vour statement? — With regard to what Professor Holland has said as to the connexion of All Souls’ with the study of law in the university, I should wish to endorse that most cordially. The college appears to me to present many features of convenience as a centre of the law studies. It would not be very difficult to fit up certain portions of the college as lec- ture rooms. The college is central, and that is a very important thing where the students are necessarily scattered over a number of colleges. 1112. Is there ample space there? — I cannot say that at this moment there is any one room which would, as it stands, be large enough for a lecture room ; but 1 think that there are several parts of the building which might very easily be adapted for that purpose. 1113. Is the college, from its site, susceptible of enlargement, if necessary ? — I think that there would be great difficulty in it. I should say that the buildings of All Souls', although they present an imposing appearance from the outside, are from defects of structure very much less capable of accommodating numbers of residents than w'ould appear. Having looked at the college with a view, as was at one time suggested, to introducing undergraduates, I think that others as well as myself became convinced that the college would have practically to be rebuilt for that purpose. 1114. {Mr. Bernard.) Respecting the use of the library, have you anything to add to what was said by Professor Holland ? — I have very little to add as to the use of the library. The library is very largely used, and its use is very rapidly increasing. I can give some tiaures as to the rate at which the increase in the use of the library has gone on in the last few years. The sub librarian keeps a note of every person who comes in to use the library. It was used by separate persons to the extent of over 1,800 times in the course of the last year. 1115. {Chairman.) By 1,800 dift'erent persons? — Not by 1,800 different persons, but by a separate person on 1,800 different occasions. The number of new^ readers introduced to the library last year w'as 108 as against 81 in the previous year. 1116. {Mr. Bernard.) Is there a sub-librarian always present to assist the readers? — Y'^es. The library is governed by a committee of the college, consisting of four ex officio members, and of four elected members, the ex officio members being the warden, the sub-warden, the bursar, and the librarian. The librarian is the servant of the committee, and purchases books by their instruction. As a matter of fact, there is a certain amount of give and take between the librarian and the committee, and he pur- chases books, within limits, upon his own responsi- bility. The revenue of the library is 450/. a year; and the college, in addition to that, pays the salary of the sub-librarian, who is always present while the lihrary is open. The library is open during the full term from 10 till 4, except on Saturdays, when it closes at 2. It is open from 1 1 till 4 on other days, but is closed in the months of August and Se[)tember and on certain holidays. 1117. {Earl of Redcsdale.) What is meant by the income of the library ? — There is an estate, the balance of the income of wliich, after the expenses of managing the estate are deducted, is handed over to the library every year. 1118. {Mr. Bernard.) Is there in fact any commu- nication hetween the librarian and the authorities of the Bodleian respecting books ? — The Bodleian has on one occasion lent us “ Wheaton’s Supreme Court Reports,” which are now deposited in the library as a loan from the Bodleian. 1119. Has it been the case that the librarian of the Bodleian, either by himself or through a sub- librarian, has consulted you as to whether you were or were not about to purchase particular books ? — I am not aware that he has consulted us as to whether it was or was not advisable to purchase particular books. I understand that the Bodleian leaves to us entirely the purchase of foreign law books. The Bodleian, I believe, purchases only American law books, relying upon us to keep up a working law library in foreign law. 1120. {Chairman.) All English books, I suppose, go as a matter of right to the Bodleian ? — They do. 1121. Would they be willing, supposing that sufficient authority were obtained, to hand over the law books which they receive under this privilege to All Souls’ ? — I believe that they would be willing. 1122. I do not mean to communicate the privilege, but to transfer the books ? — It has been suggested by some of the Bodleian authorities that their law books should be handed over to us, and that there should be some union as to the management and some similarity of hours. The college considered that the better way would be not to have all the English law books coming out in the year, but to make our own selec- tion, which we thought more convenient. We thought that if the mass of the Bodleian law books was handed over to us we should have a great many dupli- cates, and space is an object to us. We thought that our own hours were for the business of the law students as convenient as any which the Bodleian could offer ; and on the whole we preferred to keep the management of the library to ourselves. I may add that if we had entered into this arrangement with the Bodleian, we must have allowed our law books to be taken over to the camera of their library, which we thought detri- mental to a law library as a place of reference. 1123. Y^ou thought your camera just as good? — We thought so. 1124. {Mr. Bernard.) Does the All Souls’ library purchase many books of foreign law ? — It does. I cannot give you the figures, but since I have been librarian the library committee has fiom time to time taken up the law of different foreign countries, one after another, and endeavoured to obtain such books as would represent it. We have had to ascertain what books a foreign lawyer coming to this library would expect to find as representative law books of his own country, and we have tried to make them good. 1125. Is not the selection of such books a matter of very great difficulty ? — Of very great difficulty. 1126. It retiuires some knowledge here of what is going on in foreign law — Yes. In fact our power of selection depends upon the librarian or some member of the committee coming across some person who has special knowledge. 1127. The quantity of law books published in Germany is immense, is it not ? — Yes. The regius professor of civil law, at the commencement of this year, pro|)osed to make some arrangement by which we could receive information from members of foreign universities as to the law books which we ought to purchase, giving them information in return as to the English law books which it was best worth their while to possess. 1128. {Chairman.) Is there any good law librafry in the university besides those of the Bodleian and All Souls’ ? — There is none that I am aware of. I should say that there is a certain convenience in the manage- ment of the library by the college as now constituted, inasmuch as we have the only resident professor of law attached to the college, and he is at present a fellow of the college as well as Chichele professor of law. I be- lieve that for the last seven years he has almost invariably been a member of the library committee. The library committee consists, besides him, mainly of barristers ; at the present moment it consists entirely of barristers. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 69 with the exception of the warden. The further fact that a grea t number of the fellows who are not on the committee are practising barristers, subjects the library to constant criticism by men in the profession ; they come down and look round the library, and find out deficiencies, or suggest books. The Bodleian would, as far as I am aware, have some difficulty in obtaining the same amount of professional management and criticism which All Souls’ can obtain without any difficulty at all. I believe that I express the views of Professor Holland rather than my own when 1 say that there is an opinion that there ought to be two ample law libraries in the university, that the Bodleian ought to keep up a law library of its own, as well as All Souls'. My own impression is, from the use which is made of the law books in the Bodleian, that our own library supplies the want. 11119. Perhaps you may not object to inform the Commissioners what amount of practice in the law you yourselves have had as preparatory to the duties you are now discharging at the university. {Dr. Holland.') I shall be happy to tell the Com- missioners to the best of my ability. 1130. When were you called to the bar ? — In 1863. 1131. Did you go circuit, or practise at all? — I went the home circuit and sessions until my appoint- ment here in 1874'; that was 11 years. 1132. {To Sir W. Anson.) When were you called ? — In 1869, when I went the home circuit and attended sessions, and practised at the common law bar until I came here at the end of 1874. OXFORD. T. E. Holland, Esq., D C.L., a nd Sir W. E. Anson Bart., B.C.L. 25 Oct. 1877. 1133. {To Dr. Holland^ Do you still go circuit or practise ? — No, I have not done so lately, although I retain my chambers in the Temple. 1134. {To Sir IF. Anson.) You, I believe, reside here ? — 1 reside here. I retain chambers in London. The witnesses withdrew. John Charles Wilson, 1135. {Chairman.) The Commission understand that you are at present taking part in the instruction given in the university, or by the colleges in the School of Law ? — I am. 1136. Will you have the kindness to tell us at the beginning what exactly is your office I — I am lecturer in Exeter, Queen’s, St. John’s, Wadham, and Keble colleges. 1 137. Is that an intercollegiate arrangement betw^een those different colleges? — It is not. lam employed separately by each college ; there is no interchange of ideas, I believe, between the colleges on the subject. 1138. But are the classes common classes? — That is entirely under my control. As a matter of fact t hey are ; that is to say, I group my men together for lectures. 1139. I see the first point which you have noted upon the paper which you have been good enough to send to us relates to the leading purposes for which teaching in the law is required. What are those purposes ? — Those purposes are the university examinations; that, viz., in the School of Jurispru- dence for the bachelor of civil law' degree, and in certain subjects in the Pass School, the elements of the law of real property, and the elements of Roman law. 1140. What are the number of students engaged in the study ? — Perhaps I may in the first place be allowed to state that in Trinity term 1876, I ascer- tained that the number of students actually engaged in the study was 119. 1141. Do you mean from all the colleges which you have named ? — From all the colleges in the univer- sity ; the information w'as obtained by means of private communications addressed to the college lectmers. 1142. {Mr. Bernard.) Does that include men reading for the Pass School ? — It does not ; it concerns the Honour Schools only. 1143. {Chairman.) Is that the latest return which you have been able to obtain ? — That is the latest return of the actual numbers engaged in the study. The other figures contained in the paper before you were obtained from the published list of candidates for examination, and to these I will, if I may be allowed, refer, with certain conclusions from them. In order to form an approximate estimate of the relative numbers of men studying law and other subjects, I have from these lists compiled a table, showing the numbers of candidates offering themselves in the six final Honour Schools, from Trinity term 1873, to Michaelmas term 1876, both inclusive. Trinity term 1873, being the first occasion upon which the six schools were distinctly divided. Thus : — Honour Schools. 1873. 1874. 1876. 1876. - T.T. M.T. T.T. M.T. T.T. M.T. T.T. M.T. Literac Hiimaniores - 28 89 29 66 26 82 89 28 416 Mathomaties - 12 12 s 13 17 19 20 9 107 Theology 30 30 28 40 40 42 34 25 269 Natural Science 11 7 8 18 9 11 24 11 101 Modern History 28 36 21 63 40 41 50 23 292 J urisprudence 19 22 26 20 28 41 45 22 223 128 176 117 210 159 236 264 118 1408 V 3U4 327 395 382 From these figures it appears that the percentage of men offering themselves as candidates in these six honour schools was as follows ; — Liter® humaniores - 29 Modern history - 21 Theology - 19 Jurisprudence - 16 Mathematics - S Natural Science - 7 100 A comparison of the figures for the year 1873 with 1876 also shows the movement, so to speak, of the different studies between those years. In the year 1873 the total number of candidates offering them- selves being 304, the percentage was this : — Liter® Humaniores - - 32 Modern History - 21 Theology - 20 Jurisprudence - 13 Mathematics - 8 Natural Science 6 100 ar 1876 the percentage was • , Liter® Humaniores - - 31 Modern History - 19 Theology - 15 Jurisprudence - 17 Mathematics - 8 Natural Science - 10 100 The conclusion being that with regard to literm humaniores there was an imperceptible diminution ; that mathematics were stationary ; that in theology there was a sensible decrease; in natural science there was a sensible increase ; in modern history there was a slight decrease; and in jurisprudence there was a I 3 Esq., B.C.L., (Exeter College,) examined. J. C. Wilson, Esq., B.C.L. 7o UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. C. Wilsim, Esq., B.C.L. 25 Oct. 1877. sensible increase numbers. This will be found from a comparison of the year 1873 with 1876. I have not added the figures of Trinity term last for the reason that the whole year has not yet elapsed, and the conclusion which one would dra^v from the figures would be therefore partial. There has been a slight alteration in the figures during the present year. 1144. {3Ir. Bernard^ Do you suppose that the increase in the students of law can fairly be attri- buted to the opinion that to gain honours in that school is easier than in the other schools ? — I have no positive data. I liave heard scattered individuals state that they think it easier to get a degree in law than a degree in liistory, but I have no sufficient information upon the subject, and I may say that I have generally endeavoured to dissipate the idea. 114-5. ( Chairman.) Perhaps you may bo aware that it has been suggested, I think in public, that in some honour schools it is easier to take the lowest class than to take a jiass degree in the ordinary course ; is it your impression that that is ever the case ? — I have heard of the impression, but I also have heard can- didates who have failed in the Law School agree that it was much easier to take a pass degree for the reason (if for no other) that the examinations, instead of being held all together, are scattered over a number of trials. 1146. Is the Law School of all the final schools con- sidered to be the easiest or not ? — As I said before, I have no sufficient data. I have heard men express themselves to that effect, but my own impression is that it is not so. 1147. This brings us to the question of the prospect of the increase or decrease of the number of law students ; what have you to say with regard to that? — With regard to the prospects I think there is no prospect of decrease ; there is a slight falling off of numbers owing to accidental causes. There was an addition made to the subjects of examination, and the men were a little frightened at the moment, but I have no sort of idea, that it will be more ’than tempo- rary in its effect. The prospects of increase I should think would be due rather to the possible addition to the numbers coming to study for jirofessional ends. The Incorporated Law Society last year held a meeting here, and there seemed to be a desire on their j)art to get more men within the scope of university teacliing and influence. If that takes place then there will be a sensible increase ; but otherw ise, I should say simply that the numbers are likely to remain as they are, Avith the slow increase which would result from the general increase of numbers of students in the university. 1 148. {Mr. Bernard.) The matter was discussed again, was it not, at the last meeting of the Incor- porated Law Society ? — I believe it was, but I fancy that no practical conclusion has been arrived at. 1149. {Chairman.) What have you to say with regard to the class of students ? — They are mainly professional. The men who follow it are, so far as my own experience goes, very largely persons in- tending to go either to the Bar or to the other branch of the profession, or to the Colonial Bar. Several at the present mo.Tient are intending to go to practise in the Colonies, in the West Indies, Australia, and other places. 1 150. Does that apply not only to the lectures of the kind which you have described, which you your- self give, but also to the higher professorial lectures ? — I was referring rather to the class of students who offer themselves as candidates for honours in the school. I have observed certainly in the higher professorial lectures many gentlemen who are not at all aiming at professional pursuits, but I am confining myself to candidates. 1151. You have said that the students look for- ward both to the Bar and to the low er branch of the profession ; are there many who are preparing to be solicitors? — A. fair number. Perhaps I may be alloAved to observe upon that, that I obtained in- formation some time ago as to the number of persons ot that branch of the profession who obtained a degree at any university, and I found that the numbers were extraordinarily small. Five per cent, of the whole number of solicitors admitted during the year, was, I believe, the extent of the number of persons getting a degree at any university, I mean not at this university merely, but at any university, including the University of London. I obtained that information from Mr. Williamson, the secretary of the Incorporated Law Society, three or four years ago, but I have had no information upon the subject since. 1152. What have you to state with regard to your next head, which relates to the distribution of the subjects of study for teaching purposes ? — Taking first the subjects for the Honour School of Jurisprudence, these subjects are grouped, broadly, under five heads, but practically they are distributed under a number of other divisions, making up iiltogether nine subjects requiring separate treatment and teaching. 1153. Are those the nine which you have mentioned in your paper ? — Yes, tliey would be comparative and historical jurisprudence, analytical jurisprudence, theory of legislation, English constitutional law, English real property law, English law of contracts, history of Roman legislation and judicial insti- tutions, elements of Roman private law ; and, lastly, international law (public). This in fact is the mode in which the subjects are distributed for the purposes of teaching. 1 154. You probably consider that to be a convenient distribution ? — That is the distribution which it is found necessary to make for properly exposing the subject. 1155. {31r. Bernard.) This distribution is liable to vary more or less from time to time, is it not ? — It would vary ; but broadly, this Avould be the mode in which the subjects would be divided for lecturing purposes. In the paper to Avhich you have referred I have made some observations about the number of lectures required, but that number varies very much in practice and in the mode of exposition. With regard to the honour examination for the degree of bachelor of civil law', the net result that I have arrived at from an examination of the list of subjects Avas that there were about, I think, 20 distinct branches of legal study which might require exposition Avithin the university, supposing the university to give teaching in all the subjects demanded at any of its examinations. 1156. {Dr. Belkuny.) Do the students for the bachelor of civil lavv degree chiefly study in Oxford or not ? — They do not as a rule ; I have three or four, I think, in one college. 1157. {Chairman^ Are the regulations to which you refer those in the examination statutes? — Yes. The examination might embrace, 1 think, more than 20 subjects; about that number assuming that the Avhole of the subjects were taken up; it is very improbable that there would be any such number offered at any one time. 1158. Do you think it important that the principle of teaching with a direct view to examinations, should be carried beyond the degree in arts? — I should conceive it desirable that any young man should have the advantage of instruction and direction in any subject of examination which he was going into, not necessarily in the way of lecturing, but certainly direction. 1159. Might not the opinion be entertained that the influence of examinations upon the coui'se of in- struction was rather a necessary evil than a good in itself; and that it would be a better thing to give instruction with a view to the principles of any branch of know ledge, than to give it modified by the demands of examination ? — Distinctly ; but there seems to me to be a difference between lecturing Avith a distinct view to an examination, and giving a high class of instruction in the various subjects which may be the subject of that examination, and that is Avhat I am rather pointing at. 1160. Will you go to your next head, which relates UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 71 to the provision on tlie part ot’ the university, first of all, of teachers ?— Probably the Commission are very well acciuaintecl with the "number of professors and readers, and therefore I will not repeat it; I will merely mention that as a matter of fact in a given term, namely, in Lent term 1S77, this last Lent teim, lectures were delivered in the following subjects ; in Roman law, in international law, in English law, and in jurisprudence. The number of lectures in Roman law were 10; in international law 12; in English law 12; and in jurisprudence about 6 ; tb^ total number of lectures in that term being 40 on the part of the university. 1161. Would that probably represent the per- manent course of lectures, or would they be liable to increase or diminution according to the increase or diminution in the number of students ? I think thei e would be no increase or diminution in consequence of increase or diminution in the number of students ; the number would vary owing to the statutory obligation incumbent upon the professor or reader, but for no other reason. In some instances the pro- fessor, for example, is not statutably bound to lecture at all. The Corpus Professor of Jurisprudence is not bound to lecture at all. 1162. Has the number of lectures which you have just mentioned been determined by statute or other requirement, or is it what experience has shown to be convenient for purposes of instruction ? — It is deter- mined by statutory requirement simply, so far as my information goes. 1163. Would it be for the benefit of tbe students that the number should be increased? — Materially, I should think. , When I say materially increased I am thinking of an increase by means of an addition to the number of professors. I sliould certainly not impose more lecturing duties on the present staff of professors. 1164. (iff?-. Bernard^ The professors are com- monly directed by their respective statutes to deliver lectures in two or three terms of the year, are they not ? — They are. 1165. So that you could not assume that because a small number of lectures were delivered by a pro- fessor in one term he would deliver the same number in the other two terms of the year ? — Certainly not. I should imagine that the number I have stated was about an average. 12 lectures term by on International the professor. 1 166. For example, law would be given in one but the total number of lectures that he has to give m the year is not 36, but 24 ? — Yes, 24 is the number. I am far from saying that delivering lectures is the extent of a professor’s work even with the men, the professors offer papers and direction to their classes from time to time. 1 167. ( Chairman.') Are the times of delivering those lectures arranged in concert with the professors of other subjects, so that those students who may wish to add law to other studies will have a full opportunity of attending the lectures both in law and in their other studies ? — I have no positive informa- tion upon that head. 1168. You do not know whether there is anything like an attempt to organise the arrangements so as to enable all the students who desire it to attend the lectures in all the different schools ? — I do not. I have no knowledge of my own upon the subject. 1169. The next head is, as to the provision on the part of the colleges. What is your opinion upon that point ? — The provision on the part of the colleges appears to be by way of supplementing the profes- sorial work to some extent, and in some cqses sup- plying the teaching which is not supplied at all by the university. The provision on the part of the col- leges may he mentioned under the head of teachers, and the nnmher aVid the subjects of the lectures. There appear to be at present seven college lecturers teaching law only, and having the entire direction of the legal studies of the men of 12 colleges and one hall. There are two college lecturers principally teaching history, but giving lectures in law occa- sionally, and they take part in the direction of the legal studies of the men in two other colleges. In one college a classical tutor till lately directed the studies of the men of his college in law, and also gave lectures. That arrangement in that particular college has been lately altered, and now a distinctly law lec- turer undertakes the teaching and the direction for the college ; and in one college the lecturer in history directs the studies in law of the men of his college, but provides for their instruction by an arrangement with another lecturer. I may mention, perhaps, that the duties of the teachers of law are to deliver lecbires and to superintend the direction of the studies of their men in that subject. Their duties are what are understood as tutorial duties, and in some cases also, although it does not fall probably within their province, they are consulted by the young men, and sometimes by their parents, as to their future professional career. There is a varying practice in the colleges. In some, as in my own instance, a lecturer is appointed by each college, and it is left to him to determine the mode in which he organises his work. I may add, referring to my observation about the duties of the college lec- turers, that after moderations the lecturer in law has almost the exclusive charge of the men in the college who choose that school. . 1170. That is to say that the great majority of them go into the law school and into no other; is that so? — They do. If they choose they can choose another, but it is very rarely that they choose a second school; and then, of course, they are eliminated from the college teaching in other subjects. 1171. Is it a good thing, so tar as your experience goes, to permit them to take uji law alone ? — I have no opinion upon that subject. I may add, perhaps, that with a view to providing a more complete range of subjects, the lecturers are in the habit of inter- changing lectures witii each other sometimes, and sometimes the scheme of combined lectures between different colleges answers the same end. I have not been in the conibined scheme. I interchange lectures. I admit to my lectures men from some other colleges besides those for which I am concerned, merely to hear the lecture, and I, on the other hand, send my men to other lecturers. 1172. Then the number and subjects of the lecturers, I presume, are those which we have in this paper which you have given us, in which you state, “ The number of law lectures given by college “ lecturers during Lent term 1877, so far as 1 could “ ascertain it, and taking 15 lectures as the average “ number of lectures in a course, was in Roman law, “ six courses or 90 lectures ; in general jurispru- “ dence, two courses, or 30 lectures ; in theory “ legislation, two courses, or 30 lectures ; “ law, six courses, or 90 lectures ; and in inter- “ national law, one course, or 15 lectures. The total “ number of lectures in law for Lent term given for “ the 16 colleges and one hall before indicated was “ 255. This number, owing to accidental causes, was ‘‘ below the terminal average, which might, perhaps, ‘‘ be taken as 285.” That would be 255 collegiate lectures, if I may use the expression, to 40 profes- sorial ? — Yes. 1173. Would the %ame students who attend the collegiate lectures also attend the professorial ? — Distinctly. We regard the professorial lectures as part and parcel of the education scheme which we have to deal with, and we arrange our times and ( )XFORD. d. C. Wilson, Esq., B.C.L. 25 Oct. 1877. of in English seasons accordingly. 1174. {Dr. Bellamy.) You require the pupils to go to them, I suppose ? — Yes. 1175. {Chairman^) What is the practical relation of the professorial lectures to yours ; are they lectures of a higher order, and adapted to the more advanced students ? — In some instances they are so. My im- pression is that our lectures are intended to be very much like the professorial lectures, although I should be far from saying that they are equal to them. 1176. {Mr. Bernard.) Strictly speaking, there is no I 4 72 UNIVERSITY or OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J. C. Wilson, Esq., B.C.L. 35 Oct. 1877. professor of English law lecturing here, I believe ? — In practice there is not. There is a reader. 1177. The public teacher is the Vinerian reader? — Yes. 1178. {Chairman.') You do not mean that the pro- fessorial lectures cover the same ground with that which is occupied by the collegiate lectures ? — Their subjects, I think, are, with rare exceptions, very much the same as ours are. They do, I think, generally cover very much the same ground as that which we attempt to cover in very much the same way. 1179. Would you say that they do not lecture in a more scientific manner ? — I apprehend not. I am, however, persuaded that in many instances the method is better. 1180. {3Ir. Bernard.^ That is a somewhat difficult comparison to make, is it not ? — Exceedingly difficidt. As to the topics, they go over the same ground. 1181. That would be due, perhaps, to the fact that they both lecture with a view, more or less, to the examinations ? — That is my view. 1 182. And it would also, perhaps, be true that those who had attended the lectures of a professor like those of Sir Henry Maine might pursue the same method or course of study in their own lectures afterwards ? — Just so. 1183. {Chairman.) The next head on your paper relates to endowments. What have you to say upoij that subject ? — With reference to endowments, I would state with regard to the study and teaching of law, that there is, I think, almost no endowment. There appears to me to have been very little advance in this respect, even generally, towards keeping pace with the extended range of subjects. Fellowships, and scholarships, and exhibitions, I think, generally, have not kept pace in their numbers (I do not say that they ought to do so) with the extension of the field of sub^jects since the first University Commission. With regard to fellowships, they are still on the old footing, that is to say, the bulk of them are confined to persons who have obtained honours in literas humaniores and in mathematics, the two old studies. In recent times modern history and natural science have obtained recognition, and there are fellowships for both of those subjects, I believe ; but in law, I think, the Stowell civil law fellowship and a fellowship of Pembroke are the only two. 1184. Is there not the Eldon law scholarship ? — I think that that is a matter of election, and that it is given to the candidate who has obtained the greatest number of honours in the schools. That, 1 think, therefore, would be excluded, and the All Souls’ fellowships I have not set down as an endowment for the study of law, except in so far as that certain of them are set apart for the endowment of the Chichele professor. 1185. You do not think that there is any substan- tial encouragement for the study of law ? — I do not think there is. Then with regard to tutorships, these are extremely rare, notwithstanding the tutorial cha- racter of the teachers’ duty, and that they, in fact, have exclusive charge of their men’s studies during, perhaps, two-thirds of their university career. There may be one or two law tutorships, but as a rule they are not tutors but simply lecturers, with whatever share in the disciplinary arrangements of the college may be the result of that. 1186. With regard to special academical prizes for law, have you considered whether the fact that the majority of the students have professional objects in view has a bearing upon the necessity for providing such prizes ? — I have not looked at it from that point of view. 1 187. You will observe that they generally look for the prizes in after life ? — Yes. That point of view, it appears to me, would affect many other subjects; it might be said that there are prizes in after life suffi- cient to attract men in other subjects, but I have not looked at it from that side. 1188. {Mr. Bernard.) The prizes that are to be obtained by a successful practice of the law would perhaps be obtained, by a different course of study from that which we should desire to encourage by academical prizes here ? — Certainly they would be of a more technical character. I u'as going to add, under the head of scholarships and exhibitions, that the Vinerian law scholarship, I believe, is the only one that exists. Under the head of endowments, there- fore, I would suggest that fellowships, whether for limited times or not, might with advantage be devoted to the purpose of encouraging the study of law, and that fellowships should besides be distinctly connected with the teaching of law, either as connected with the college system or not, and that a very distinct addition might be made with advantage to the number of scholarships, exhibitions, and prizes for students of law within the university, and in the colleges, to be competed for and held on conditions similar to those of the Vinerian. 1189. {Chairman.) Are the Vinerian scholarships given by competition ? — They are given by open com- petition once a year. 1 190. Who is the judge of the competency of the candidates? — There is a Board of Examiners, consist- ing, I think, of three examiners, who report to the vice-chancellor the candidate whom they select. 1191. You have some suggestions to make, have you not, as to the additions which you think necessarv to the teaching staff. ^ — Y'es; tfie form of that addition would depend upon whether the college system was maintained or not. Assuming the latter system for law teaching to be maintained, then I would make certain additions to the staff of professors, as follows : As to the subject of jurisprudence, I coincide wiih the recommendation of the Board of Studies for the School of Jurisprudence, namely, that there should be two professors at any rate ; that in Roman law there should also be two ; that in English law there should also be two professors. Under the head of English law there should be, besides the two pro- fessors, occasional lecturers in subjects more distinctlv technical, these occasional lecturers being persons who might possibly be engaged in professional work, and who might be invited to give courses of lectures here from time to time as occasion might require, perhaps with a special view to the more professional aims of some of the students. Under Oriental law, I would appoint a professor and a reader, (assuming the col- lege system to be maintained,) appointing a reader in that subject especially, for the reason that in that subject the university might very j)roperly make the whole provision. In international law I would have one additional professor. I mentioned no readers, except in the subject of Oriental law, for the reason that I think the college law tutors would, as they in fact do at present, occupy the place of university readers ii\ the other subjects. Assuming the pro- fessors to be engaged in the higher illustration of their subject and in research, the other teachers, whether college or otherwise, would be engaged in the more personal direction of the studies of the men, and conceivably give a different style of lecture, perhaps more elementary. 1192. I rather understood you just now to hesitate to say that that is the case at present ? — I am not aware that I expressed an opinion to that effect as to the character of the lectures. 1 say, however, that they might at some future time; at present, I think that they are pursuing very much the same course that the university teachers of whatever name do. 1193. Your conception of what they ought to be, so far as one knows, is the same which one would have formed with reference to the existing state of things as much as any future one; what security would there be that your additional number of professors would follow that division more than the present professors ? ■ — I am not aware of any security. The other alter- native would be not to maintain the system of college lecturers or college tutors in this particular and special subject. The thing in fact has, I think, really to a great extent gone, and I do not see any particular object in maintaining the name. Where a number of UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 73 colleges combine together, and one lecturer gives lectures upon a certain subject, or where a number of’ colleges appoint the same man as their representative in a particular department, practically it appears to me that they have gone a long way towards abolishing the system of separate tuition for their men ; they really do, in fact, employ a single corporate officer ; it is not on quite so large a scale as the appointment by the whole university of a teacher would be; but it is an approximation to it, it appears to me, in principle, that the thing is reached. 1194. {Mr. Bernard.^ You think that it is a tran- sition state of things, and not likely to be permanent ? — I do ; and furthei- that if it was carried to its logical and fit conclusion instead of there being groups of col- leges appointing men who have to deal with certain sections of men, and who thus extend their reading and lecturing over a great variety of subjects, I think that the university should appoint as readers persons who would then specialise, that is to say, who would then confine their time and attention to separate de- partments, — to less numerous subjects in fact. 1195. {Dr. Bellmny.) Do you think that in any case the colleges could do without their own officers ? — I conceive that in sharing an officer with other colleges they do in fact to a great extent do that now. 1 196. Though they share their officer with another college, they expect him, do they not, to exercise the same personal superintendence over their own men as if he was entirely their own ? — Certainly. 1197. Y^ou could not expect a university reader to do that ? — A university reader would, I apprehend, do for all the colleges in certain subjects what under the existing system is done for particular colleges by the college lecturer in all subjects for the particular college as he does now. 1198. (Mr. Bernard^ The system has advantages ; it is flexible and is adapted to meet wants as they arise ; but I understand your view is that it wants organisation ? — I think it does, and in the direction I have indicated. 1199. {Chairman.') Before going to the subject of the readers I should like to call your attention to this, that in suggesting a second professor of inter- national law and diplomacy, you are probably aware that you are not in accordance with the report of the Board of Law Studies, that they did not ask for him ? — 'I'hat had escaped my notice, but I thought that an additional professor was really wanted in that subject. But with regard to the readers, I should make the following additions. Assuming them to replace in a great measure, for this particular special subject, the college tutors, I should appoint three in each of the subjects of jurisprudence and Roman law ; lour in English law ; one reader in Oriental law, and one reader in international law ; but their duties should be, as I would repeat, personal tuition, and the direction of the men, in which I think they would have ample employment. And those readers I should attach to special colleges tone or more to certain colleges), as fellows and as members of the governing body. 1200. In that way you would provide for their stipends ? — Y'es. 1201. Have you formed an}^ opinion as to what their stipends ought to be? — With regard to the stipends of the professors, I have no observations to offer, but as to the readers I think that 400/. a year which has been indicated by the report of the Council of the university would not be adequate, and it might be added that it does not in fact represent the average payment ot a college tutor — for, 1 apprehend, that to reach that average the value of the fellowship must in fact be added. The Councifs recommendation, I think, involves permission to the reader to take college work. I thinic that that is very objectionable. I think that the reader ought to be properly paid, and devote himself to his readership, and to no other work. 1202. It has been suggested that the reader, I do not say in the law faculty particularly, but that any reader might have a small stipend, say of 100/. a year or something of that kind, and be allowed to Q 6223. make what more he could by receiving fees from the students who attend his lectures ; in your opinion would that be an improvement ? — I have not con- sidered it. My impression is that it would have a tendency to aggravate the evil of lectures for exami- nation j)ur{)oses, and I should further add that it appears to provide no payment exce{>t for lecturing. 1203. {Dr. Bellamy.') In a school, which has not many candidates, like the Law School, it would not be at all an adequate stipend ?— No ; it would be a very small salary under any circumstances, and your object is to attract men to do the work of personal tuition for the students. I do not think that for such duties men fresh from the schools are at all adapted. If you offered 100/. with a chance of fees, I do not know what other class of men you would attract. 1204. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you propose, then, that all the readers should be entirely paid out of uni- versity funds? — In attaching them to colleges as fellows, I assume that their stipends would be pro- vided for. 1205. In that case, if the same system were ex- tended to the other studies of the university, where would the present payments for tuition go ; the pre- sent payments for tuition are payments in exchange for what the men receive in teaching, but if the teaching of men in the various branches of university study were provided for by teachers endowed by the university, what would become of the present pay- ments for tuition ? — That appears to me to be a financial question — the mode in which you would re- arrange the fund ; the funds of the college might be swelled by the tuition fees, which would go into the common purse. 1206. It would be necessary to deal in some way' with the payments for tuition ? — Certainly. 1207. {Chairman.) Now, will you take the subject of residence ? — I would make residence obligatory upon all tbe professors in any, so to speak, distinctly aca- demical and scientific legal subjects. I would have a provision for relaxing that obligation, as in the case of the jiresent Corpus professor of jurisprudence. I would only allow non-residence in the case of the occasional lecturers that I mentioned just now. I think that without residence you will hardly get a scientific school of law established within the uni- versity. I think that the connexion which has existed so many years in the university between the practice of the law and its professorial teaching, has, on the whole, worked advantageously. I think that the present attitude of the university towards law studies generally is perhaps to a considerable extent attributable to the non-resident character of the stall’, not merely to its small numbers. 1208. {Mr. Bernard.) No public teacher of law is now bound to reside, excepting the professor of inter- national law, I believe ? — The professor of interna- tional law is the only one, I believe. 1209. Nor is anyone, with that exception, paid a sufficient stipend to induce him to reside ? — No. 1210. 8ir William Anson resides, but that is only a happy accident, is it not ? — It is. 1211. {Chairman.) Y'’ou said you would provide in the case of the Corpus professor of jurisprudence for relaxing that rule ; will you explain the reason why ? — For the reason that occasionally a particular individual might have given evidence of capacity and will to prosecute scientific studies which were incom- patible with residence, or having given such evidence might reasonably be liberated from the obligation. 1212. If research were the object, one understands that argument, but in tbe case of law, would research be so much an object to a non-resident as in some other branches ? — My own impression is that research is one of the most important objects that we should look to in this very subject. 1213. You think that for the sake of endowing research, it would be desirable to allow some non- resident professors of law ? — Primarily they should be resident, but that there should be power to relax K OXFORD. J. C. Wilson Esq., B.C.L 25 Oct. 1877 74 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD C03IMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J. C. Wilson, Esq., B.C.L. 25 Oct. 1877. the obligation in the hands, it mightbe, of the vice- chancellor and proctors. 1214. Is not that a dangerous power, even if you are right upon the general principle, is there not a great risk of its being used too freely ? — I should apprehend not, if you vested the power in a suffi- ciently responsible body. I would vest it in the hands of the vice-chancellor and the proctors, who are amenable to the public opinion of the place, perhaps more than any other persons that you could name. 1215. Supposing that it were used in one case, is it not nearly certain that it would be used again in the next ? — I have no opinion upon that. 1216. Powers of dispensation, according to common experience, are either not used at all, or they have a tendency to become the rule instead of the exception ? — Perhaps so. 1217. The last point which you have noted is with respect to the relation which the system should bear to the Inns of Court ; what is your opinion upon that subject? — This is mainly with regard to the recogni- tion on the part of the Inns of Court of our e.xamina- tion system. I have no particular value myself for an examination as a test of fitness for professional work ; but there being a popular demand for such a test, it must, perhaps, in some way be provided. It would, in my opinion, be on all grounds preferable that the test, if at all, should be applied in a university where a wide range of learning is open to students, and valuable influences of various kinds may be brought to bear upon them, rather than in a place like London, where such influences are reduced to their smallest, and the character of instruction and study is sure to be more technical. Further than that, besides recognising our examination, I think that the Inns of Court might possibly contribute to the establishment of student- ships. I may, perhaps, upon these points refer to the opinion expressed by the present Lord Chancellor in his evidence before the Inns of Court Com- mission of 1854 at questions Nos. 1637 to 1641, 1651, 1654, and 1655. The witness withdrew. Rev. IF. Stubbs, M.A. The llev. W. Stubbs, M.A., (Regius Professor of Modern History,) examined. 1218. (C/iainnan.) I think you are the chairman of the Board of Studies in Modern History? — Yes; at least I have been up to this term. 1219. The two reports which are before us are signed by you ; at least the first of them, the one in 1873, is signed by you ? — Yes, as chairman. 1220. Perhaps you would inform us of the present condition of that school, whether you think that its wants are sufficiently provided for by the existing staff of the university ? — If by the existing staff of the university you mean Professor Burrows and my- self, it certainly does not supply all that is wanted for the teaching of the men. The men are principally taught by the college tutors. 1221. Do the college tutors principally teach modern history? — Yes. 1222. It was recommended, I think, by the Heb- domadal Council that there should be an addition to the present university staff of Two readers in modern history and one in political economy, with an occa- sional reader in Northern antiquities ; that was their recommendation, was it not? — Yes, that was the recommendation of the Council. 1 223. And the Board of Studies in the first instance, in 1873, at page 53 of the book which we have here, recommended two additional professors, one of English history and one of literature, with an indefinite number of readers ; and then afterwards, at page 92, we have a later report in which a much larger recommendation is given, that there should be five additional professor- ships with three or four readers, the professors to be of English history, foreign history, English literature, modern church history, and Indian history, with some modification of the Anglo-Saxon professorship, and perhaps a professorship of Northern antiquities ; can you explain to the Commission the reason why the recommendations were so much larger at the later date than at the earlier ? — I suppose the principal reason was that there was p. prospect of a Commission. In 1873 the board proposed a scheme which they thought was feasible with the means existing at the time ; in the second report the board, or the com- mittee of the board who drew up this report, pro- pounded a scheme which they thought might be set before the Commission as something comparatively complete. 1224. Has the number of students been constantly increasing? — Yes, I think it has on the whole. 1225. Do you think it would be of great practical advantage to make so large a subdivision of the sub- jects of teaching as the scheme of five new professor- shij>s or more would involve ? — If you ask my own opinion, I may just say that this report was sent in by me as chairman of the board. I had no hand in drawing it up, and in many respects it does not represent my opinion. My own views I have stated in a public lecture which I shall be very glad to send to the Commission if you care • to read it. They are really embodied in the concluding recommendation of the Council. “ The Council recommend that consider- “ ing the probability of a further development of the “ study of modern history in the university, particular “ attention should be paid in this department to the “ expediency of making additional provision for “ strengthening the staff of professors and readers, “ and for the appointment of professors extraor- “ dinary.” 1226. Those would be professors from time to time appointed only from personal considerations ? — Either personal considerations or an occasional great need. 1227. But not part of the permanent staff ? — No, not to hold permanent chairs. 1228. The Commission would be very glad to see the lecture which you have mentioned ; but would you be able to give us now shortly the jjrincipal points of it? — This is the principal point: at the present moment a very large part of the teaching of history is conducted by college tutors who act, 1 am happy to say, in very close concert with the professors, and who arrange their lectures from term to term in concert with us. It is, of course, not desirable that the professors should lecture solely or princij^ally with a view to the examinations. Hence, although I have a pretty good class of men, all who are reading for the Class Schools do not come to my lectures. 30 is quite as many as I can manage at a time ; some of the college tutors have very much larger classes and are doing much more of the detailed work of the school than I could ever undertake to do. It might possibly appear an advantage if, by some organisation or arrangement that we could make, the college lecturers in history could have a recognised position as univer- sity teachers ; or in fact if our voluntary association could be so far incorporated as to have university recognition. 1229. Do you consider that the system of inter- collegiate teaching which now prevails is working well ? — In our own subject it is working very well. 1230. Y’ou think that it provides satisfactorily for the majority of the students ? — Yes, for the majority of the men who are reading for honours, certainly. 1231. How many honour students are there at any one time attending your lectures ? — I have 30 this term ; it is rather a larger lecture than I generally have, and it is generally between 25 and 30. 1232. If the subdivision which is suggested took place, is it the idea that students would attend all the lectures of those additional professors, or would they be divided between them ? — The former would be im- possible. The subdivision of the subjects would, I UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. / O should think, have more bearinf^ upon the general cultivation and development of the subjects of study than on the tutorial looking after the men. 1233. You think it might perhaps tend to promote research, hut not to be otherwise useful in the present state of university education ? — I do not think it could be worked on so large a scale in the present state of the university. 1234. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you think any increase in the number of permanent and regular professors desirable or not. I ask you that question because the first report of the Board of Studies for Modern His- tory did make what I may call a more modest pro- j)osal as I'egards permanent increase ; it proposed a professor of English history, and one of English literature ; do you agree with that ? — No, I am opposed to having a professorship or lecturership in English literature connected with the Historical Schools. I think that to have the Elistory School hampered with dilettante teaching, such as the teach- ing of English literature, must necessarily do great harm to the school, and therefore I entirely disagree, and always have done, with the recommendation of the Council at page 8. The appointment of a profes- sor of Indian history, which is another recommenda- tion of the Council, I agree with. 1235. ( ChairmoM.) Is it easy to sec why there should be a separate professorship for a local history, which after all is part of the history of England and of the modern world? — I suppose there would he three reasons for it. First of all, having got already an established readership, and a good man in it, is one reason. Another reason would be the purpose which the university has of opening facilities for the Indian civil service ; and a tliird would be that on the whole the importance of India generally to England is suffi- ciently great to furnish work for a separate teacher- ship, and that a great deal of the interest of that history lies a good way apart from the general history of the world. 1236. Would not those be excellent reasons for having a reader ; but are they reasons for elevating a local branch of history to the dignity of a profes- soriate ? — I did not understand that that was the lioint that you asked me about; but unless I knew’ what was the difference betv/een a professoriate and a readership, I could not very well answer. It is not a matter which I have considered at all. 1237. ( Mr. Bernard.) Do you think it right that there should be a special university teacher for Indian or Oriental history ? — Yes. 1238. How would you put it? Should it be in Indian history or Oriental history? — Indian history, I su])pose. 1239. Up to a certain date there is an entire sepa- ration between the history of India and the history of the West ? — -Yes. 1240. Are lectures delivered upon that earlier period of Indian history to any extent, do you know’ ? — Mr. Sidney Owen is the lecturer, and I have heard him deliver lectures on the state of India before the English attempts upon it, and he has published a book upon that subject. 1241. I understand you to say that you are satisfied upon the whole with the working of the system of combined or college lectures in co-operation with the professoriate? — Yes, I am quite satisfied with it. 1242. {Dr. Bellamy.) All you think is that the success of it is a little precarious? — I think that it wants to have a firmer basis than that of mere volun- tary association. 1243. How would you think that could be done ? — I should think that it could be done either by giving the Board of Studies power to arrange lectures, or by giving to this voluntary association, or some association formed in the same way, the honour of a university status; that it should have some regular power of drawing up schemes for reading, and so on. 1244. {Mr. Bernard.) If it were proposed with respect to these and other university studies, that those teachers who are now distinct from the public teachers of the university should have some public status or some public organisation; for instance, that they should be a class of readers, or that readers should be substituted for them ? — I do not agree with that, for I think it would separate them from the college in- terests too much. 1245. Is there any disadvantage, do you think, in the fact that a man who may wish to go to an eminent intercollegiate lecturer is unable to do so, because his college does tiot hapjien to be included in that parti- cular combination ? — I do not think that happens. I believe anybody may come to our intercollegiate lectures w hether they belong to any college or not. 1246. {Dr. Bellamy.) Y^ou admit, do you not, that there might be a difficulty on the part of a college, that if they had a lecturer of their own they might say, “ You must attend our lecturer,” and that would preclude them from attending in that manner ? — They might, but I do not think they would. 1247. {Mr. Bernard.) So far as you know', that particular objection would disappear ? — Yes. 1248. May I ask whether there is any arrangement adopted amongst themselves (I am no^v speaking of the public and other teachers of modern history) to secure this co-operation that you speak of in the w’ay of lectures, so that the lectures should not clash with one another as regards hours and the like ? — Yes ; we have a meeting every term, and draw up a scheme of lecturing, and arrange both the subjects and the hours — the subjects to cover, if possible, the detailed exami- nation work ; of course it must be directed more to examination preparation than professorial teaching. 1249. All of you agree in that, do you ? — I do not, as a rule, lecture for the schools, but the tutors must. 1250. Is it a meeting at w’hich the professors assist as Avell as the intercollegiate lecturers ? — Yes, it is generally in the shape of a dinner. The witness withdrew’. The following letter was subsequently reeeived by the Commission from Professor Stubbs. “ Kettel Hall, “ My Lord, Oxford, Oct. 27. “ It has struck me that in my examination before the University Commission on Thursday I expressed an opinion on the subject of a proposed professorship of English literature in language w'hich might be misleading. I meant to say that I was opposed to the view which would regard the establish- ment of such a professorship as a boon to historical students, as a reepurement, or even as a departmental accessory to the School of Modern History. I ditl not intend to express any opinion as to the necessity or desirableness of having such a chair as a part of the general teaching apparatus of the university’. I am persuaded that the study of history, whether as an instrument of education, or whether w’ith a view to research, requires a severer and more bracing treat- ment than w’ould be compatible with a pursuit so partial, and so vei’y liable to become desultory and discui'sive as the mere study of literature, even our own, and even in good hands, would be. There is no special connexion between English literature and modern history ; and the subject might be just as well connected with theology or language. That is the extent of my objection. As to the propriety of having the subject represented by a professor, I did not intend to offer any opinion. I venture to write this to you, because the proposal to establish such a chair has been sometimes, in Oxford, regarded as a con- cession to the requirements of historical study. What w’ould be desirable would be an occasional readership in the sources of history’, historic literature, the ‘Kritik der Quellen’; but this would be included among the subjects which would be provided for by extraordinary professors. I must apologise for troubling you with this note, but it is a relief to me, and may, if our con- versation is lu’inted, help to prevent a misapprehension. “ I am, &c., “ William Stubbs.” K 2 OXFORD. Rev. W. Stubbs, M.A 25 Oct. 1877 76 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. The Kev. C. W. Boase, M.A., (Fellow of Exeter College,) examined. Rev. C. W. Boase, M.A. 25 Oct. 1877. 1251. {Chairman.) We understand that you have had considerable experience in the teaching of the Modern History School ? — Yes. 1252. Will you have the kindness to tell us exactly in what capacity ? — I am a tutor in Exeter College, and give history lectures there. I am also a member of the combined scheme of history lectures, the members of which arrange every term all the lectures that are to be given in the university, and am also on the Board of Studies for the History School. 1253. {Dr. Bellamy.) Does that combination extend over many colleges ? — The whole of the university except Worcester, Hertford, and the Unattached, but any member of those three bodies may join any course of lectures by paying a sovereign. Practically, it is the whole university ; there is no one in the university who could not attend if he pleased. 1254. {Chairman.) You have also had experience, have you not, as an examiner in the same school ? — Yes, I have been examiner three times. 1255. Will you tell us whether you are of opinion that the school is flourishing ?— It certainly is ; it has had a much greater attendance in the last few years, and there has been an improvement in the range of subjects, and in the way in which men get up the work. 1256. Does the number of candidates for honours increase ? — Not in the last tw o or three years. There was a great increase in the number five or six years ago. 1257. Has the separation of the Law' School from that of Modern History had any appreciable efl'ect one way or the other ? — Yes, I think the History School has benefited rather more than the Law'. The Law is always in a minority at the present time. 1258. You are of course acquainted with the two papers which were sent into the Hebdomadal Council, one in the year 1 873, and another later, in, I believe, 1876 ; in the first of those papers, at page 53 of this book, it is suggested that there should be an addition to the staff of university teachers of modern history of two professors, one of English history and one of English literature. Before I ask you any ques- tion about that I may mention that in the later year, 1876, another paper of recommendations was sent in, which is at page 93, in which a much larger additional staff' is suggested ; that is to say, that there should be an additional professor of English history, an additional professor of foreign history, and an additional professor of English literature, (two of them being the same as I have mentioned before,) an additional professor of modern church history, a [irofessor of Indian history, some modification of the Anglo-Saxon professorship to fit into this school, and perhaps a professor of Northern antiquities. Were you yourself a member of the board at the time when either of those recommenda- tions was made ? — Yes, I was a member on both occasions. 1259. Perhaps you will state for what reasons the demand was so much increased ? — I think the idea was to give as complete an account of the whole range of subjects as possible ; not with any view to the immediate education here, but rathei' with a view to research, and that the whole I'ange of studies might be complete. 1260. With a view to education, do you think it would be beneficial, having regard to the present and probable number of honour students, so much to sub- divide the subject of professorial teaching in modern history ? — No, I do not think so. There was a great division of opinion upon that subject. It was thought that a professor of English literature and a professor of foreign history should be provided, but not much additional help is needed for English history. 1261. I see that the professorship of foreign history only found a place upon the second occasion, and that it is not recommended I believe by the Hebdomadal Council ? — No ; the reason for the addition was that at present the great weight of teaching here is thrown on English history, and it was thought that foreign history was perhaps a little neglected. 1262. Do you suppose that if there were sucli an additional professor that would give a considerable impulse to the study of foreign history? — I think the men would feel the benefit of it, for they very often feel a want of that direction in foreign history, which they have in English. 1263. “ Foreign history ” is a very large expression and eovers a great deal of ground : do you suppose if there were a professor of foreign history that he would lecture uj)on any other plan than that of taking diffierent national histories at different times ? — That would be a mode which he would be able to follow much better than the present staff. 1264. Would it be possible that a lecture of that sort might be obtained by having an occasional pro- fessor ? — I think so, quite. 1265. {Mr. Bernard.) Would it be satisfactory, do you think ? — 1 think it would be better if there was a permanent professor. 1266. {Chairman.) Professor Stubbs has told us that he did not concur in the opinion that a professor of English literature separate from English history would be desirable in this school ; do you agree with him or not ? — No, I think the general opinion was that the literature would be a good subject. It has told very well at Belfast and other places, and the men have taken a great interest in it. 1267. How is the teaching conducted, is it con- ducted historically ; that is to say, upon the principle of Hallam’s history of literature ? — I think they take periods of literature, giving an account of the general state of literature and then giving extracts. Mr. Craik’s book very well represents the teaching. 1268. {Mr. Bernard.) Whether connected or not connected with this particular school, you think it very desirable that there should be a university pro- fessorship of English literature? — Yes. 1269. (Chairman.) So far as the wants of this particular school are concerned I understand you to say that on the whole they are well provided for at present? — Yes, very fairly provided for. I might add, perhaps, that the combined scheme of history has this advantage that there are no fees connected with it, so that any man of any college in the scheme can attend it without payment. In the classical scheme you will very often find that there are several Ethic or Kepublic lectures going on at the same time, because every college has a lecture for five or six men. But one man could lecture quite as well to 30 men as to 10. In the history scheme each teacher selects his subject and there is no unnecessary multiplication of lectures, whereas if there is payment from the colleges the colleges from which that pay- ment comes employ their own men, and therefore there is a great multiplication of lectures. Each history teacher receives essays, and answers to questions from his own men, but not from men of other colleges. This intercourse is most beneficial. 1270. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you think it at all desirable that any university status or organisation should be given to the collegiate or intercollegiate lecturers other than they now have ? — The professors and tutors meet at {wesent at the end of every tei'm as a sort of educational council to settle what lectures shall be given for the next term. 1 think that if that kind of educational council were more publicly organised as a university body under the presidency of the regius professor of modern history, it would be a good thing. 1271. In some other studies it has been suggested to us that the position of a university reader is one to which a college teacher might aspire, and which he would consider an advance upon the position which he holds as a collegiate teacher, and that has been mentioned to us as a reason for introducing a system of university readers ; do you think that that would apply to the teachers of modern history ? — 1 think UNIVEKSITY OF OXFORD COMMiSSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 77 if a certain proportion of reaclersliips were given as a promotion after they liad been tutors or lecturers for a certain time tliat would have a stimulating effect, especially if there was some additional pay and some additional status given them. 1272. Do you think that the collegiate or inter- collegiate lecturers on the whole would wish for any change of that kind ? — I do not think that they are very eager for it. The present system is working so well that we are rather anxious to improve the system as it exists at present. Hut anything like an educa- tional council which would enable the teachers to combine better would of itself be an advantage. 1273. Have you a good many men in tbe university who are giving their lives to the study of modern history ? — ^Yes. 1274. And very usefully doing so? — Yes, very. About 10, I should think, is the present staff that we have of tutors who are working at it. 1275. {Dr. Bellamy.^ I suppose that those men have nothing definite in the future to look forward to in the way of advancement, except a succession to one of the two professorships now existing in the university ? — That is all. If there were a small number of reader-ships 1 think it is felt that that might be a sort of stimulant. I do not think that there is any feeling to have a large number of readers or professors. 1276. The readerships that are recommended are terminable, are they not? — Yes. 1277. Do you think that they would be looked forward to so much as a reward ? — No, I think that if it was thought that they shoitld be terminable they should be for a consider-able term. 1278. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you think that amongst the class of persons of whom we are now speaking, a desire would exist for anything in the nature of pensions ? — I do not know that that has been con- sidered at all. They are almost all fellows, and pensions are something like fellowships. In looking forward to a system of pensions being established in the colleges you will see the (juestion of pensions for the readerships has never been considered. 1279. {Chairman.) Have you anything further which you would wish to add to your evidence ? — No, I think not. OXFORD. Ren. C. W. Boasc, M.A. 25 Oct. 1877. The witness withdrew. The Rev. J. F. Bright, M.A., (Fellow of University College,) examined. 1280. {Chairman.) We understand that you have had considerable experience in the Modern History School here ? — I have been teaching some time in it. 1281. As one of the college teachers ? — Yes, as one of the college teachers. 1282. Upon the combination system? — Yes. The history is on a rather peculiar system. It is not quite an ordinary combination of colleges. Originally the connexion was strictly personal, and it has grown until it practically includes the whole university. It is the practical incorporation of the history teachers. Their lectures are open to all the university. I believe they are not quite all nominally in the ])ub- lished list. There are two or three colleges which are not mentioned, but practically they do come to the lectures. 1283. They pay some fee, do they not, for coming ? — No ; the original construction was this: a certain number of the teachers wishing to have a chance of sending their pupils to teachers in different branches of the subject, agreed simply to exchange pupils at their lectures. Consequently there was not any payment of a fee at all. It was simply a matter of exchange, and there is no payment of fee now between those tutors who have made such an arrangement, but it is usually the case that if an outside college sends a pupil they charge him a fee, but that is, as I say, limited practi- cally to some three or four colleges. I think that all the other colleges are in the combination. 1284. Then no unattached students would be in the same situation ? — The unattached students are, I think, admitted always without a fee ; that is so in my case, and I think in all cases. 1285. We understand from Professor Stubbs that it is usual for the tutors at the colleges who teach in modern history to meet the university professors and make some arrangement as to the scheme of teach- ing, and he told us that it was generally done at a dinner ? — Y'^es, it is theoretically true. 1286. Do you mean that practically speaking it is not done ? — I mean that the professors practically have very little to do with the arrangement. 1287. But is there by mutual concert a scheme arranged ? — There is a scheme arranged which would be capable of being arranged thoroughly well if it were thought necessary, but the fact is that from the irregular and somewhat informal character of the corporation of history teachei's a certain number of us think that our lectures ought to be such as to suit our own pupils, and consequently we do not like being turned aside from our natural course into a general scheme, and the consequence is that the plan drawn up is never really very complete. 1288. Do you think that that organisation might be improved ? — Yes, I think it might be improved, but there are great difficulties no doubt in the way of improving it. 1289. Are you one of those who think that it would be well if the college lecturers in this subject should be absorbed into the university rather than continue part of the college system? — No, certiinly not. I strongly believe that so far as teaching goes, looking upon the university merely as a place of edu- cation, the college system is the most efficient by far, but of course there is the other side of the question. I think it is injurious looking upon the university as a place of learning. I think it is very injurious to learning, but I think it is advantageous to the simple teaching of young men. 1290. That is to say, that if we separate the objects of learning or research from those of education, the system rather stands in the way of research ? — I think it does rather stand in the way of research. 1291. But on the other hand a system which had more tendency to promote research would not be in an equal degree conducive to education ? — I presume that the great question is whether the two can possibly be harmonised. 1292. Has any mode of harmonising them sug- gested itself to you ? — I think that the real drawback to learning in the case is that a tutorial teacher in a college (I speak chiefly of my own subjects) has so very large a range of matter to cover that it is impossible for him to give auj- real work to one particular branch. For instance, supposing that I am lecturing upon the history of the last century and wish to give thoroughly good lectures, it requires all my time to do so ; instead of which I am occupied for many hours a day in doing private work with individual pupils. If, therefore, a certain number drawn from the colleges, from the tutors, could receive some mark of university acknow- ledgment as readers, and could be raised out of the necessity of taking for the time being any large number of ])upils, I think they would be able to devote a good deal of time to research, and yet by keeping a little of their college work they would feel the pulses of the men to whom they were lecturing, sufficiently not to injure their jiractical use as teachers. 1293. Is the demand upon the time of the teachers liable to increase in proportion to the increase of the nundiers ? — Yes, undoubtedly. 1294. We have been told by some former witnesses that the school on the whole is going on in a satis- factory manner, is that your opinion ? — -Yes, I think certainly it is going on slowly and well. I think that the fault is in the want of elevation of the lectures. K 3 Rev. J. F. Bright, M.A. 78 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. OXFORD. liev. J F. Bright, M.A. 25 Oct. 1877. I think that the lectures are obliged for the most part to be strictly teaching lectures, and that lectures based upon very large knowledge would simply be wasted, as things now are, — a state of things which T think ought not to be. 1295. You are aware probably of the recommen- dations which the School of Modern History has made to the Hebdomadal Council, and also of the recom- mendations of the Hebdomadal Council upon that subject? — I do not think I do quite know the recom- mendations of the Hebdomadal Council. 1296. The Hebdomadal Council recommend that there should be added to the present university staff two professors, one of English literature and another of Indian histor}^; that is, I suppose, elevating the reader of Indian history to the rank of a professor ; and that there should be two readers in modern history, one reader in political economy, and an occa- sional reader in Northern antiquities ; do you con- sider that such an addition to the university staff’ as that is M^anted ? — Yes; I should think that it was; certainly if we are to look iqion the establishment as at all a perfect representation of the school. 1297. Apart from instruction, you mean? — Yes. 1298. The school itself, that is to say the Board of Studies, asks for a great deal more than that. They asked in 1873 for an additional professor of English history and another additional professor of English literature ; and in 1 876 they asked for live or more additional professors, one of English history, one of English literature, one of foreign history, one of modern church history, one of Indian history, and probably one of Northern antiquities, with some absorption or modification of the .Anglo- Saxon professorship ; do you think that it w'ould be an advantage that there should be for the purposes of instruction any such large subdivision as that of the subjects in a school ? — Not for the purposes of in- struction. I think that the paj)er to which you refer carefully divides the objects aimed at. The board ex- presses a hope that the present system of college teaching will be carefully kept up for instruction, but in order that the university may represent the sub- ject well before the world it wishes for all those chairs. It always seemed to me rather an over-large request. 1299. Some opinions of considerable authority have been given to us to the effect that it is not desirable in this universit}^ to endow research entirely apart from teaching, but that it would be better to aim at a combination of both objects together ; that is to say, that there should be a high class of teachers or professors who should lecture, and do that efficiently, but who at the same time might be ex- pected to make advances in their different branches of knowledge ; do you agree in that opinion ? — I should agree entirely in it if it was not that that seems to leave certain cases entirely out of consideration ; men who are really able to add to knowledge and yet vdio are poor lecturers. If readers wei’e established, it would be useless that they should be chosen upon other grounds than their power to instruct and be lecturers. There are a large number of individuals who are excellent for their work, and who are ex- tremely able men, but who have not the gift of teaching. 1300. Until comparatively late years the pro- fessoriate of the university was practically a mere representation of various branches of knowledge, at least the greater part of it, and a mere endowment of research without much teaching, was it not ? — Practically, there was very little professorial teaching. There were in almost every case, I think, lectures announced, but many of them being but little attended by the men practically fell through, — some of them, I believe, became quite nominal. 1301. So that they were not given in a great many cases ? — .lust so, and that of course would be a risk in the formation of readerships. 1302. Were the results, so lar as you know, of that system great in the way of research I do not think they were very much, but I should think there were causes for that which might be explained. 1303. (Mr. Bernard.) Causes which would not operate now ? — Which need not operate now. I should have thought that the point of the whole was the appointment of professors. 130i. (Chairman.) I sujrpose if you were to make inquiry into it, it might be found that many men of considerable reputation and ability in those days were appointed to professorships, probably as good men as could then be found ? — Yes, 1 think so in many cases. I should say, not in all. 1305. (Mr. Bernard.) Do yon think that a ])ro- fessor at the present time, if he were appointed to an important branch of study, could, with reasonable regard to his own reputation and to the opinion pre- vailing in the university, be entirely idle ? — No, I do not think so. I think that at the present instant that would be quite impossible. 1306. At the present time there is a very active spirit of study in the university, is there not ? — Yes, in all branches. 1307. There is probably no braneh in which it is more active than your own ? — It is very active in my branch and in the scientific branches, and I think also in the classical branches. 1308. I see that there are a great number of lec- tures given in ])articular branches, and you would look upon that as an evidence of activity ? — Yes, that is so. 1309. Could you explain a little more some words which you 'used just now with respect to university recognition of the lecturers ? — It would be really a matter of payment, or it comes very largely to that. If there was a possibility of getting a small nundjer of university readers who were sufficiently re- munerated to be able to carry on their researches and their lectures without giving much attention to their pupils, I think you would then be able to get real research. 1310. Do you mean without giving much attention or without giving engrossing attention ? — Without giving attention to any very great number. Theeffeet of that would be that the colleges from which those readers were taken would have to have a second representa- tive of that jmrsuit in their colleges ; that is to .say, supposing a man is receiving 500/. from his college, if he could throw over 250/. of it, and receive 250/. from the university, the 250/. tliat he leaves behind him might be employed in paying some one to take half his M'ork in the college. 1311. The present relation of your pupils, for instance, to you can hardly be called, except in a very modified sense, a collegiate relation, can it? — Yes. That, I suppose, is hardly evident upon the face of the arrangement. 1312. Will you kindly explain that? — Our com- bination is for lecturing only and examining in our own lectures. We do not take those who come to our lectures for any private work ; we confine ourselves there to our own colleges. That is caused by the original constitution of the combination. 1313. I mean that men may come to you from the whole university to be lectured ? — A'es. 1314. The relation of an Exeter or a Trinity man coming to you would not be a collegiate relation in any proper sense, would it ? — Not if he came only to my lectures. 1315. If you were a university reader instead of being a collegiate lecturer your relation to him would be neither more nor less collegiate than it is now ? — Almost identical. 1316. You indicated just now an important point as to the advancement of learning or research ; you said that the endowing of research by endowing teaching offices had this disadvgjitage, that a man might be a good and useful student without being a good teacher; is there any other mode that you would suggest in which the desired object could be obtained without that disadvantage ? — I have heard modes suggested. It does not appear to me that there UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 79 would be any great difficulty in employino- such men in distinct and appointed work, as the collection and arrangement of manuscripts, and the getting at a know- ledge of hidden and unpublished soui'ces of information. 1317. We have all heard those things suggested, and I want to know whether you have formed any opinion as to the practicability of any form of that mode of endowment.^ — 1 think it must always be given as a reward and not a prospective thing. I think that a man must have already shown his wish to follow out researches, and his ability to do so, and then I do not see any obstacle in the way of paying him in the w'ay of a fellowship, or in any other way that might be arranged, to continue his researches, being sure that he would do it. If on the other hand you give fellowships for the object of research, it seems to me the chances are that then you would have weak men who would be of no value really, and who might often after a time neglect research. 1318. But then I thought you said that the pay- ment or emolument was to be in consideration of a continuance in some work of the nature of research ; or did I misunderstand you in that respect ? — Yes, I think that ought to be kept in view. The difficulty of course is the proof, unless a man has already shown a distinct tendency in one line and bi’oken ground upon it. 1319. Would it be, in your view, a thing of this kind, an emolument given for a limited time with the hope or on condition that the man would or should pursue some definite work in the natui'e of research ? — I should have thought it would be better if ihe emolument were given for a short period, renewable at its expiration. 1320. No doubt the difficulty of enforcing a con- dition of that kind by any external pressure is gi'eat, if not insuperable ? — It is great, certainly. 1321. You stated that the professors themselves have little to do with the general arrangements for intercollegiate lectures, but one would rather have supposed that the professors would have a good deal to do with it ; their lectures are not the least im- portant which are delivered on the subject of modern history ? — Certainly not ; but they are after all only individual members of our society ; they have no autho- rised position enabling them to organise a scheme. They have no power nor have they any sort of position amongst us, beyond their personal position, which would render it possible for them to do it. 1322. For instance, if you knew that Professor Stubbs proposed to give certain lectures on a certain subject, knowing what his lectures are, you and the other college lecturers would endeavour, would you not, so to arrange your lectures as not to interfere with him ? — Yes, v/e should try to do so. In fact the professor’s lectures are at fixed hours, and we try to arrange that they shall be left free. Amongst our- selves there is, as you may see, considerable anarchy, and the whole ground is not thoroughly covered. 1323. Is there any mode of improving it that you could suggest ? — I think it is very difficult, because we there touch upon the other old difficulty of all Oxford arrangements, that is the hidden jealousy between the professoriate and the colleges. I do not think that a certain number of us would like to be disciplined ; I am not speaking of myself, for I should rather wish to be so, but I think there are certain amongst us who would rather carry on their lectures upon their own ground than be brought into disci- pline by any professor whatever. 1324. I thought that yon indicated that a difficulty existed amongst yourselves in so arranging your lectures that the co-operation should be complete ? — That again is something of the same difficulty. We do not all of us like altering the plans for our own particular college pupils to suit a general scheme. 132.5. As far as you see, an arrangement of this sort cannot well be otherwise than voluntary ? — I believe I was one of the originators of meetings of historical teachers already mentioned. They were intended to lead to organisation, and we tried for several years to make a tolerably good arrangement, but it fell through. That is all 1 can say about it, and I do not think that without a very strong professor of an organising turn of mind it is likely to assume a more definite form. 1326. I may say that we have been given to under- stand that the arrangement on the whole works very well ?' — It does work very well. 1327. {Chairman.) Is there anything farther that you would wish to state ? — No. OXFORD. Rev. J. F. Bright, M.A. 2.') Oct. 1877. The witness withdrew. Robert Laing, Esq.j M.A., Fellow of Corpus Christi College, examined. 1328. {Chairman.) You have been engaged in the teaching in the Modern History School for some time, have you not ? — Yes, more or less since 1863 ; I took my degree in that year. 1 329. Have you been engaged as one of the col- legiate teachers ? — First of all I was what is known as a “ coach then I became lecturer at Wadham, and then I gradually became lecturer at six colleges, and continued teaching at those six colleges until four years ago ; but I still remained on the Board of Studies, and have seen a good deal of what has been going on since, and I have been examiner quite recently. 1330. In the paper with which you have furnished us, I see that you trace a little the history of the study of law and modern history in Oxford ? — After getting the notice yesterday afternoon to attend the Commissioners, I wrote that paper as heads of what I might say. 1331. The first head seems to be historical. If there is anything on that subject which you think important to enable us to understand the present state of things, you might tell it to us ? — I have often been struck with the fact that at the very commencement of the study at Oxford, history was associated with the teaching of modern languages, and with the prepara- tion for a diplomatic career. George the First founded the chair here ; at the same time he founded two teacherships of modern languages, and he pro- vided for 20 King’s scholars who should learn at least two modern languages, and on whose progress a re- port should be made once a year to the Secretaries of State in order that they might receive diplonratic appointments. 1332. Were they to be instructed in Oxford? — Yes. 1333. What has become of that foundation ? — The university at that time was extremely non- Hanoverian. I might say, perhaps, that the founda- tion owed its origin, I think, to the influence of Leibnitz. He had been dead but a short time at the date of the establishment of the Oxford professorship and had been the literary director and oracle of the little North German Court. Tims the same idea may have presided over the foundation of the Oxford chair and that of the university of Gottingen, which took place a few years later, and which is still a great seat of the study of English history, where two professors. Professor Waitz and Professor Pauli, are now engaged upon cognate subjects, who indeed paid us a visit, on an historical mission, the other day. The foundation came almost to an end, because of the opposition of the university to the Flanoverian Dynasty. The influence of the university seems from the first to have infected the recipients of the Georgian salaries ; the professorship went on, but the modern language teachers never seem to have got any permanent footing in the university, and very few king’s scholars were appointed. What I am saying is, I think, to be found, amongst other places, in Professor Goldwin Smith’s K 4 R. Laing. Esq., M.A. 80 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. li. Lainy, Esq., M.A. 25 Oct. 1877. lecture delivered in about the year 1859. He does not trace the connexion with Gottingen, but the his- tory of the Oxford chair he gives. That was the point which I wanted to remark upon in connexion with the first foundation of the study. It had in the minds of George the First and of his advisers very much the importance which on a larger scale many of those who are interested in the study now' w'ould like to revive with regard to it. 1334. Then I see you have put down some notes with regard to the more recent history of the profes- sorships ? — The study of modern history languished and practically collapsed at Oxford until Dr. Arnold took up again the whole work of the chair ; and since his time I think one may say that a great interest has been taken in history. The History vSchool itself w'as not founded, hut the history professor’s lectures were very w'ell attended previously. The History School itself, I think, was not founded till 1853, and from about 1859 I can remember its history. 1335. It has been constantly making progress, has it not? — Very remarkable progress, I think. Fifty- nine men took honours in the school last year. 1336. I see that you have noted in your paper that four years ago the number of men who could be brought together at a lecture was from 40 to 50, and that It would be possible to attract now 70 or more ? — I very often had 40 or 50 men in a lecture tlien, and it was all the more observable how very rapidly the attendance at lectures had grown, because very superior lecturers indeed had been even only a few years before unable to get many men. Professor Goldwin Smith himself, who was a most admirable lecturer, far better than any successor in that parti- cular, used to have three or four men at a lecture when he gave the lectures, which he advertised. 1337. Then comes the combined lecture scheme, of which I think you have bad considerable experience ? — That I think 1 may say originated in my rooms. Mr. Talbot, now the w'arden of Keble, and Mr. Shad- well of Oriel, and Mr. Creighton, who was at Merton, and myself, I think, set it going, and we set it going asan experiment. It very soon became dominant with regard to the subject. We set it going independently of the professors, but in time the professors asked whether their lectures might be advertised with our scheme. 1338. And now there is some kind of concert between the professors and all the teachers on the combined system ? — Yes, and of course we were very glad when that became possible. 1339. Is the result, in your opinion, a satisfactory organisation of the system of teaching ? — I think that as far as teaching only is to be considered, the result is very satisfactory ; we get a large number of men ; the lecturers cover a great field ; they take a great deal of pains with their lectures ; and 1 fancy that the best lectures, and the best attendances, would compare favourably with what goes on at any university abroad. 1340. Has that system entirely superseded private tuition ? — Almost entirely. That is a very difi’erent state of things from what existed 18 years ago. 1341. And has the result of establishing a separate School of Law in your opinion promoted the study of modern history ? — I think very much. We have not given up the stud}' of law altogether, but we have studied law from a more historical point of view than before. It was said that we should fail; that there was not enough backbone about the school ; but I do not think that that has been felt. We are willing to receive portions of law as special subjects, but I think that we have rather helped the Law School than the Law School has helped us. I believe that Ihofes- sor Stubbs’ “ Charters and Documents " is considered, in the Law School, a very valuable book. 1342. You say that recently more men have read history than formerly read law and history together ? — Yes. 1343. And at the same time we have heard from others that there arelai'ge classes in law ? — Yes. The Law School attracts large numbers. 1344. As to the examinations, has their character improved or deteriorated ? — I should say that the ex- aminations are very greatly improved, hut perhaps I may be rather prejudiced there. 1345. You have been an examiner ? — I have, and I was on the Board of Studies, which overlooked and rearranged the examination ; and I count myself rather fortunate that some of my suggestions have been received. I think that the examination is much harder ; that greater care is taken in examining ; that it is much more specially a historical examination ; and that the men have to read in a better way. I am not sure that we get quite as brilliant men as we used to get, because formerly men came over more from the “Greats’’ School to us. In one respect that 1 think is rather a testimony in favour of the school, because in point of fact the men after passing through the “ Greats ” School rind now the “ Modern History ” School so difficult that they could scarcely get up the work in time. 1346. Is the number who do that less than it was before ? — Yes. 1347. {Dr. Bellamy.) They continually did so before ? — Yes; they did it easily in six months, which is quite impossible now ; they may do it in a year, but do not often attempt it. We do, however, get some men still from the “ Greats ” Sehool. 1348. {Chairman.) How much time is allowed? A year I think now. I am not quite sure about that. 1349. I suppose that the number of men who wish to stay as long as a year after taking their degree is not great ? — They think it better to go in for a fellow- ship ; they think that they will forget their old know- ledge, and that perhaps they may not get much advan- tage out of the new. They read practically in the same line as before with a view to fellowships. 1350. What is the present quantity of lectures each week? — 1 looked in the Gazette this morning to see that, and I counted 19 sets of lectures per week, which is a very large nuinher, and some men some- times give two sets. But I counted the professors’ lectures and the combined scheme lectures, and be- sides that there may be a few lectures which are not down in the Gazette. 1351. I see that you speak of the school as having borne fruit in the direction of research already ? — Y’’es. I think, considering the very small encouragement which anything like research has had, that those fruits are somewhat remarkable. I can give an illustration to which I think there is a reference in the paper before your Lordship, and this strikes anyone who has had anything to do with the History School. Lately, in reading the account of what Dr. Arnold thought of doing, I see that he proposed to do for English history what Guizot had done for French history, and he proposed to begin English history in the 14th century, because he said there was nothing of importance before. He origi- nally proposed to begin with tlie 15th century, but he was persuaded to commence with the 14th. All the research of the school has been since connected with previous times. I may mention Mr. Freeman’s work, and Professor Stubbs’ work (some of which might be said to be distinctly done with a view to our school), and the volumes of chronicles published under the direction of the Master of the Rolls, which are carefully studied here, while some of them have had Oxford editors. 1352. So that you think that the school has both influenced, and has been influenced by, the course of research which has been going on — Yes. Professor Stubbs’ “ Charters and Documents,” and the two volumes on “ Constitutional History,” 1 think, have on the face of them that they were meant primarily for tlie History School here. Then there is what can scarcely be called research, but it shows intellectual activity, namely, the movement, in connexion with which historical handbooks for schools throughout the country have been published. These works have I NfVKIfSiTY Of OXFORD COMMISSfON ‘ — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 81 come u good 'If, 1 under the influence of the History School here. Mr. Creighton is the editor of one series, and he was a very prominent teacher here ; and the Longman series of “ Ej)ochs of History ” had for its editor Mr. Morris, a pupil of my own, and I well remember discussing with him its programme. 1353. What are your anticipations with regard to the future of the school ? — I think that the school might do anything ; what it will do, I scarcely know. 1354. You have views as to its future connexion with the Indian Civil, the Home, the Colonial, and the Diplomatic Services ? — The universities seem now to come into relation with the public service, or seem likely to do so, more than heretofore ; and certainly the History School would, I think, be a most useful link between a public school and university education and an official career, and more especially if it had an Oriental department ; hut it seems to me a question- able thing whether tlie Oriental department ought not to be separated from the historical one. 1355. We may proceed to the wants which in your opinion exist, and might be supplied ? — There, some- thing like a permanent localisation in buildings, I think, is the first want. I have that view very strongly, not only with regard to this school, but with regard to all, namely, that the specialisation of a certain number of colleges with regard to different subjects, if anything on a large scale is to be attempted, is the only way of permanently settling the question of university requirements. 1356. {Mr. Bernard.) Will you explain that a little more ? — I think that the school would be per- manently on a good footing if it stood in a direct connexion with the Bodleian,"and with perhaps tlri’ee colleges, not exclusively occupying three colleges, but one can fancy, to begin with, the Bodleian being con- nected with the college which has most in the way of British antiquities, say with Jesus College ; and that it would be an advantage if Jesus College were made a kind of professorial college, and if there were connected with it some institution like the only great historical institution which the French have, namely, the Ecole des Charles, which has, I believe, several professors and some 20 scholars. For the history of the Middle Ages in France that small department has done almost all the good work which has been done in France for some years past. Again, there is the study of manuscripl:s. The Ecole des Charles does a great deal just now in regard to the history of the Crusades, where the Arabic and Ai-menian historians have gradually to be edited. 1357. Do the professors lecture? — Y”es. They train the students in the knowledge of charters. The students compare the charters of different centuries so as to be able to detect forgeries, and, in short, to understand all the manuscript department of historical libraries. I think that there ought to be something of that sort some day in connexion with this school. I mention Jesus College because it has the finest Keltic library, I believe, that could be named. It would be very possible to connect French, and espe- cially Breton, savants with that institution. The Americans are very much interested in similar sub- jects, and the present moment seems the right one while Keltic is still a living language, and we could do in that way a great deal more than O.xford in any way does in regard to the very interesting antiquities, literature, and history of the principality of Wales. The Scotch, and the Irish, might have some kind of academic head-quarters there, and the library work could be done in connexion with it as regards Anglo- Saxon manuscripts and so on ; and the Anglo-Saxon professor might be attached to such a college as I am describing. One department of the stafi’ of the Bod- leian Library and a school of national antiquities might thus both find shelter at Jesus. The whole staff of the Bodleian could not be accommodated in this way at Jesus, but a modern and mediaeval department might thus be housed, and possibly the Oriental department in connexion with the Oriental College, and the archaeological department in connexion with Q 6223. classical studies and some college or colleges associated with these. 1358. What do you mean by the connexion which you propose to establish, say between the Bodleian and- Jesus College? — I am supposing that the staff of the Bodleian were partly located in Jesus College, and at the same time a certain number of students of Keltic, and of English, and Northern antiquities, located also in Jesus College, and that they prepared themselves, to some extent, for library duties, but to some extent were taken over afterwards by the teaching department of the History School. 1359. {Chairman.) In yonr paper you suggest that the Taylor Institution should be connected with it ? — Yes, it would be, I think, as desirable to connect the History School with modern languages and literature as with national antiquities. 1359«. With regard to the Bodleian and the Taylor Institution, why may they not in their existing con- dition satisfy the wants of which you speak ? — Con- sidering what an amount of old historical literature we have in Oxford, it is very remarkable that an interest in it has never been created yet; or at all events, if it has been created, has not satisfied itself. These would be people who would have time to com- pare manuscripts and edit manuscripts, and I think that, in this country, to persons interested in history the most remarkable thing in their own history is the way in which the Keltic element has never yet been approached or worked out at all. 1360. I see that you also suggest that Queen’s should be associated with the same scheme ? — I think that Queen’s might be partially associated with it because of its excellent modern library. Queen’s has a splendid English history library. It is just such a library as professors and readers in the Modern His- tory School would find suitable to their requirements, day by day, as teachers. I should think that it is quite one of the finest in the world, and it is the most accessible and the most conveniently arranged of all the libraries which I have ever had to do with. I have read a great deal in the Bodleian, and I have read a great deal in the British Museum, but I never found so handy a library as Queen’s. 1361. Is it very well catalogued? — Y'es; it had 40,000/. left to it a short time ago. which has princi- pally been spent in modern history. 1362. {Mr. Berna.rd.) Do you suggest that the fellowships, say of Queen’s and of Jesus, should be in any way appropriated to work of this kind ? I am trying to ascertain exactly what it is that you w'ould suggest respecting these colleges ? — I would consolidate and centralise in two or three colleges the modern history department of the university. There would be thus associated most of the resident members of the History Board of Studies, most of the professors and readers in modern history, and also a section of the learned statf, the leading officials, of the Bodleian. All the sides of the work of the university in modern history would thus, I think, be represented and brought into relations with each other. The work of historical teaching and the work of historical research would be carried on from these centres, research being housed, mainly, at Jesus. I further hope that some Oxford literary organ for the publication of the results of historical research would, in time, connect itself with such a school of modern history as I am anticipating. 1363. {Chairman.) I rather collect from this paper that your idea is that at Jesus there should be no instruction given to undei'graduates ; that Jesus should be turned entirely into a college for the teaching staff, and that at Queen’s the undergraduates might be increased ? — Yes. I think commoners might cease to exist at Jesus. 1364. So that the scholars should, so far as might be, be collected in Queen’s and the teachers in Jesus, is that the idea ? — The young students of history, who are commoners, might be especially attracted to, or encouraged at Queen’s. At Jesus there might be a certain number of scholarships for young men with a L OXFORD. R.Laing,Esq., M.A. 25 Oct. 1877. 82 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. R.Laing,Esq., M.A. 25 Oct. 1877. taste for library work, and for the study of charters and documents, 1365. {Earlof Redesdale.') Would they not go in for their degrees ? — They would go in for their degrees, but they would have an endowment if possible lasting a little beyond their degree, say a scholarship which would carry them on for a year ; or perhaps provision might be made in the way of a prize fellowship for a certain time. 1366. Then you would do away in a great degree with the college as a place of general education? — I would in a few cases, not throughout the university, but in the case of a few colleges. 1367. {Chairman.) Is it your view that at Queen’s an increased number of commoners sent there for purposes of general education should be special students in the Historical School? — I would not do more at Queen’s than ask them to endow a professorship or two and work their library in some sort of way in connexion with this school. I should expect that, in consequence, undergraduates, with a taste for history, would be drawn to Queen’s. 1368. I see you say in your paper, that as a matter of experience, the want of some general organisa- tion of this sort, or of some other adequate associa- tion, has been a great discouragement to some of the best men ? — I think that men have given up in despair the attempt, by mere individual exertion, to accomplish some considerable change. I am sjreaking of teachers. 1369. We know some very eminent men who, after holding professorships, have left the university ; do you think that their leaving it was due to such a cause as that ? — I know nothing about the professors, but I think that a great many of the lecturers have done so. It is a very difficult thing for an individual to do any- thing on behalf of a new study ; if he is very energetic and gets a little power he raises a great deal of jealousy and criticism. 1370. I see you suggest that King George the First’s Foundation for scholars should be revived ; that seems to have been an endowment intended, but which never took full effect? — I think that if that could be done, either at the Taylor Institution or at some college like Jesus, it would be a very good thing. 1371. What is your view as to the modern history examinations ? — It seems to be building a utopia altogether to describe a thing which most persons would consider so unlikely to take place, but I should like all examinations connected with the History School to be ultimately very much in the hands of the professors and lecturers — of people centralised in some way, and belonging to some controlling institu- tion. 1372. Then you do not agree with the views of those who think that the teaching should be, as far as conveniently may be, separated from the examina- tion ? — Not at all. 1373. {Mr. Bernard.) Are not the examiners in these schools now almost exclusively professors or lecturers ? — 'The professors complain that the lecturers get the examinations almost into their own hands, which I think is, or certainly under a proper system would be, a just complaint. I should like at such a university as this that one professor at least should be always on every board of examiners ; and in the case of examination for special fellowship, such as those which I speak of as possibly existing at some place like Jesus College, I should like the examination to be practically in the hands of the professors. 1374. Are not the examiners mostly either pro- fessors or lecturers ? — Yes, I think that it has been a very great advantage to the school that that has been so. Non-resident examiners take a long time to get into their wmrk ; that is a matter of fact of which I have had observation even in the case of very skilful historians. 1375. In the case of any study, much of which depends upon the delivery of lectures, that is likely to be the case, s it not ? — I think so. 1376. {Chairman.) You think that the present time offers extraordinary openings for historical re- search ? — I think so. I gave up lecturing about four years ago, and have been reading a little since, and I have been very much astonished at the amount of work remaining to be done. There is not a single department into which I have gone where it did not seem to me that everything had to be done over again ; and the riches of Oxford with regard to a revival of historical research are quite incalculable. The pamphlets in Oxford on the 17th century alone would supply the subject of research for 50 or 60 years to 15 or 20 men. 1377. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you see any way in which you could effect that object, and secure that the persons who dedicated themselves to it should really have and use the means of research ? — I should like to connect research to a certain extent with teaching ; but the most obvious and the most practicable thing which occurs to me at the moment is for no university professor or lecturer to be compelled to lecture for two terms in succession, but always to have a term in between, during which he might be reading. 1378. {Chairman.) Would not that a little break his personal influence in the classes ? — It would a little ; but I think that it would help that co-operation, which I should like to see take place. Let me suppose a teacher to be dealing with, as a lecturer to under- graduates and as an historical investigator, a cen- tury like the 17th. He would make an arrangement with some other teacher that he would take the first and third 25 years, and that the other teacher would take the second and fourth quarters of the century. 1379. {Mr. Bernard.) That I suppose would in- volve an increased number of teachers ? — A largely increased number. 1380. iYou are pretty well acquainted, I think, with what goes on in Germany in the way of historical learning ? — Yes, I have heard Professor von Sybel lecture at Bonn, and I have been at one or two other German universities at different times. 1381. A great many books on this subject, and on subjects connected with it, are published in Germany, are they not, books involving considerable research ? —Yes. 1382. But are they not for the most part published by persons who are constantly lecturing ? — Very often ; but German lectures are very different from the lectures which have been already given in England. A German professor has a great deal of trouble in making his first courses of lectures for two or three years after being appointed to a professorship ; but he afterwards practically gives his courses over and over again, and I do not think that in point of form any but the really best German lectures are superior to Oxford lectures. That was why I mentioned Pro- fessor von Sybel’s name, who is a well-known professor. The lectures which he gave in point of form were not better, and I think were not quite so good, as the best Oxford lectures. 1383. Did you hear him ? — Yes, at Bonn. 1 384. ( Chairman.) What do you mean by “ form ” ? — Finish, and even careful study ; he knew a very great deal about his subject, but trusted to himself a great deal more than an Oxford lecturer does ; whenever a piece of German history was being discussed it was very splendidly handled, but when a bit of English came in it was treated in a much less satisfactory way. 1385. {Mr. Bernard.) A German lecturer lectures during all the term, and very much more frequently in the term than in England, does he not ? — Yes ; very often he has very small classes, and the greatest German historian, .Professor von Ranke, could never keep a class together, and it was supposed that he on purpose killed ofi his class at the beginning of the term. The Government always allowed him to spend his time as he pleased, and his plan as professor was a most admirable one, though it is one of which we have had no experience here. Nor would it be desirable to follow exactly such a system at Oxford. He had young men sent to him by the other profes- sors, of whom he was told that they were promising UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 83 historical students, and he inquired into their tastes and gave them literary work to do ; he told them that there were certain departments of German history which wanted writing upon, and he practi- cally introduced those young students to historical studies, and they wrote their books, and very often by his recommendation got their chairs. 1386. Have not the Germans a convenient practice of giving from time to time a considerable leave of absence to persons engaged in teaching, for the pur- pose of prosecuting study at home, or in foreign countries ? — I believe so. The Germans have all their work, in regard to history, in a much more forward condition ; if they are lecturing upon German history they have a great many books at hand. Leave of absence enables rare unprinted materials to be con- sulted, unique manuscripts, private letters, and so forth. We have almost all the preliminary literary work to do. I think that we want distinct provisions to allow of leisure and study on the part of university teachers, even more than would be necessary in Germany. 1387. In your opinion, would the granting from time to time of leave of absence to a professor or teacher, who wished to engage in work which was the natural outcome of his department of teaching, be useful ? — I think so. 1388. (Chairman.') Is there anything else to which you wish to advert ? — I think that if the History School were well manned here we might do a great deal in the way of giving lectures throughout the country. I have delivered in this way, I think, 17 courses of lectures in different places, at Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Cheltenham, Clifton, Bath, and so on, in connexion with the movement for the higher education of women. I have been very much struck, at places like Wolverhampton and Birmingham especially, with the fact that a great many of the people know very little about Oxford, and how rapidly Oxford becomes popular in consequence of an intro- duction of that sort. I have noticed that rather strong political dissenters, for example, have been quite surprised that some of the things which I said should have been said by a person who came from Oxford. If these communications between the univer- sity and country went on to a larger extent I believe that the hold of the university on the country would be greatly increased, and a very good use might be made of the History School in gaining and strengthen- ing that hold. 1389. (Mr. Bernard^ Are we taking any share in what Cambridge is now doing — No, we have never done it at the university ; but if we had a system of what I may call “ grace terms,’’ university teaching would naturally spread through the provinces; also the university would receive benefit. In history it is extremely desirable that a man should get up the history of a county, or should get up the history of a city, the .sieges of Bristol, for instance, on the spot, and this might well be done in connexion with a course of lectures which he might deliver before a local audience. 1390. That would be met by occasional leave being given to teachers for specific purposes ? — Yes. I have put down another thing ; I have noticed lately that people very often say “ We do not want lectures, but books would be enough.” All my experience is against that. I do not think that if you turned a young man into a library he would be able to teach himself. 1391. (Chairman.) Even if the books were such as were recommended by the Board of Studies ?— I doubt even then whether a man would find his way properly through a book. I think that he would read the book hurriedly in search for certain views or facts, but would not work his way into the whole spirit of the book in the manner in which he would if he were carefully guided to it, and slowly taken through it by an older man who knew the whole relation of the book to the subject. 1392. In the actual system of instruction by the college tutors, or upon the combined system, are books read to the students ? — Not very much now; par- ticular statements or arguments in books are criti- cised, but not the whole books. The “ coach ” used to do that, but that kind of work is left to the student himself. I do not quite know what the tradition in the school, at this instant, is, but formerly three or four of us sedulously avoided lecturing on a special subject; it was a particular bit of original historical work which each man did, and we thought it a very good thing for him to be left to do it himself. That was, I hold, a very sound principle to act upon, at all events at the commencement of the school. 1393* Then I suppose that the teaching in the school travels into the byeways of history, and is not upon the beaten track ? — The whole history of England is one subject of examination. And there the teacher is in the main, though not altogether, bound to a beaten track. But lectures in relation to special subjects would soon lead into byeways. For instance, the memoirs, in which the French Revolution is studied, are some of them, partly through the demand created by this school, quite rare books. And I should say that any one, for example, who should lecture not so much on these memoirs themselves as with a view to a full illustration of them from cognate sources, would soon find himself on a byeway of history, and, if he Intended to do his work well, with a very perplexing route before him. 1394. (Mr. Bernard.) I will read the titles of the lectures in the Flonour School of Modern History for this term. Mr. Boase on English history from Edward the Second, and English history from 1796. Mr. Owen on Anglo-Scotch history from the acces- sion of Elizabeth ; on the administrations of Sir J. Shore and Sir G. Barlow, with a general review of the state of India at the close of the special period ; the Anglo-French wars in India. Mr. Kitchin on the Papacy in the 1 6th century ; the period of the seven years’ war. Mr. Bright on European history, 1713- 1763; the progress of society in England from 1300. Mr. George on the age of the Hohenstaufen ; English history from 1485. Mr. Willert on the French in Italy ; Commines and Machiavelli. Mr. Jayne on English constitutional history from 1688. Mr. John- son on English history, the Stuarts ; history of political economy. Mr. Knox on English history from the beginning. Mr. Plummer on constitutional history? — Yes. Those lectures are chiefly, as has been the custom, on English history and on general periods of European or universal history. 1395. (Chairman.) English constitutional history, according to that, would seem to be taught in a general way, and the other portions by what I may call monographs ?-=— Each candidate for honours offers the whole of English history. He offers, besides, a period of from two to eight centuries of general his- tory, which he reads in such works as those of Gibbon, Hallam, Guizot, Milman, Prescott, Carlyle. It is with English history, and with this period of general his- tory, that lecturers principally concern themselves. They supplement and control the study of the great standard historians of English and continental affairs. Each candidate for high honours offers, besides, a special subject, which he has to study in the original and con- temporary authorities, and in his work upon this he is encouraged as much as possible to follow his own method and to form his own judgment. 1396. (Mr. Bernard^ In the list which I have read I have omitted Professor Stubbs, who reads on constitutional history from the text of select charters, and Professor Burrows on English history under the sovereigns of the House of Hanover ? — Yes. The only thing which further occurs to me with regard to this paper is that the demand which is made for the school is larger on this paper than the demand as I stated it just now. Jesus and a part of Queen’s and a part of All Souls’ I think would be necessary to the full equipment of the Modern History L 2 OXFORD. R.Laing, Esq., M.A. 25 Oct. 1877. 84 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. R.Laing,Esq., M.A. 25 Oct. 1877. School. I should like to divide All Souls’ College between law and modern history. 1397. May not law and history he good friends? — Yes; very good friends, and each to the other a sug- gestive and beneficial neighbour. 1398. How do you propose that All Souls’ should serve this purpose ? — Some portion of the revenues of All Souls’ should he devoted to the foundation of modern history professorships ; the teaching generally in the university should be approached through Queen’s ; paleography, archeology, and what the Germans call “ Diplomatik,’’ should be done through Jesus. May I make one further remark about the scholarships which I speak of? I should be very sorry to see history scholarships given at the time when men come to the university. I should not like anybody to get a history scholarship until he had passed moderations, because I do not wish to encourage the study of history in the schools ; it is a capital study in the university, but it requires as good a classical or mathematical foundation as possible. 1399. You do not wish to encourage it to compete with other studies which you think belong more properly to schoolboy years ? — Quite so. 1400. But you probably would not object to some rewards being given at school with a view to foster the love of historical studies ? — Just so ; essay prizes. 1401. {Chairman.) I quite understand the bearing of a classical foundation upon the study of history, but not quite so much the bearing of a mathematical foundation ? — The best student of history that I knew, the late Dr. Shirley, canon of Christ Church and regius professor of ecclesiastical history, was a mathe- matical tutor to begin with, and he afterwards turned his attention to history ; he had an exactness in dealing with history which I never saw approached by anyone else, and a particular kind of imagination, which I rather fancy goes sometimes with people who have an aptitude for higher mathematics. 1402. Do you consider that any additional profes.sors are necessary for the school, viewed as a school of education and instruction ? — I think that it wants about 10 professors. 1403. That even exceeds the numbers of the larger demand made in the second of the papers from the Board of Studies, which we have seen ? — I use the word “ professor ” as including “ reader.” 1404. Do you mean to include readers such as those who now conduct the intercollegiate system ? — No, those are college lecturers ; I mean a university staff. It might not be found necessary to have any college lecturers if this staff were created, but I think that from a university point of view some such staff is required; and in the colleges some provision might probably have to be made for catechetical instruction and the tutorial supervision of the work of historical students. 1405. But supposing that the college system con- tinued, would there be sufficient duties to employ such a staff as 10 university professors and lecturers, in addition to the present ? — I think that probably there would be a very large number of men reading that subject, which has grown very rapidly lately. The teachers would not all be lecturing every term if they had the grace terms I spoke of. 1406. That is an element in the question P — Yes. 1407. Is the present number attending the lec- tures about 70? — I was able four years ago to get about 40 or 50, but then I could compel them to come. I lectured at six colleges, and I could at the beginning of the term put men down on my list and say, “ You will come to my lectures.” I was reckoning that there would probably now be an average of 12 men reading history in each of those colleges, and I multiplied the number by six. I omitted to count members of other colleges than the six, on which I might have reckoned. 1408. {Dr. Bellamy.) Did you include passmen ? — No, 1 was thinking of classmen. 1409. {Chairman.) If you took the number at 50, which is 20 more than Professor Stubbs thinks there would be, and if you had 10 more university pro- fessors and readers, do you think that all the students would go to the university professors ? — I do not think that 10 professors are perhaps absolutely necessary for the educational wants of the university ; but if research is to be carried on there, and if 19 sets of lectures are to be given in term, it requires nearly as many as I have mentioned. I would secure for the professors access to the younger students, and enable them, under certain limitations, to enforce attendance at lectures. 1410. {Mr. Bernard.) In research 1 suppose we may include study by which a teacher improves him- self, without which he becomes a mere machine ? — I found that unless I became a machine it was impossible for me to go on as I was going on before. May I refer to another point ? With regard to the scholar- ships, I would rather that the candidates for them should be examined in modern languages than in history, 1411. With reference to that, do you not think it possible to give some greater encouragement or in- ducement to the study of modern languages in con- nexion with the School of Modern History ? — I should like to do it in this way, that all historical scholar- ships should be given after an examination, of which two modern languages formed part, and that the historical part of the exanination should, if possible, he in the history of a small period of literature. 1412. Is it possible to read foreign history in a mature way without a knowledge of foreign languages ? — It is quite impossible, but we have been quite unable, on account of what we have had to in regard to the pure historical work of the school, to consider the question of foreign languages. We have put down Dante and Moliere as special subjects in the school, but it has never been possible hitherto for any one to give from an historical or literary point of view anything like exhaustive lectures on Dante and Moliere. 1413. ( Chairman^ Is it the text of Moliere ? — The special subject is not exactly the text of Moliere. The candidates have to read the historical plays of Shakespeare in English, or Dante in his relation to his times, or the plays of Moliere as illustrating French society at the time of Louis the Fourteenth. 1414. Would no existing translation enable them to prepare themselves ? — They would no doubt have portions of the text set out in the examination, and they would be asked to translate it. Dante is the only one of these special subjects of literature which has been offered, and there an attempt was made to find out whether or not a man knew his Dante well. In all the special historical foreign subjects the candidates must read the originals. When we take the reign of Louis the XL, passages of Commines and of Machiavelli are set, and the candidates are liable to be asked to translate viva voce. 1415. {Dr. Bellamy.) Then the students in the higher classes are practically acquainted with the modern languages ? — Yes, unless they take uj) Indian history or the English special subject. I was always in favour of turning out those special subjects in order to compel men to take up foreign languages. I should add that the authorities in two special subjects are Latin annals and chronicles. 1416. {Chairman.) Then it is possible to take the highest honours in the Modern History School without taking up foreign subjects ? — It is just pos- sible, but the examiners do not give a first class to a man who takes up a special English subject unless he does it very well indeed. At least there used to be a kind of tradition among examiners of that kind. 1417. {Mr. Bernard.) To obtain a first class there must be a foreign special subject which would involve a knowledge of some foreign language, such as French or German ? — It is almost necessary. Latin would be an alternative for French and Italian. The English special subject is the Great Rebellion. We were almost compelled to put in the Great Rebellion on account of the feeling that it was so great a subject. It is, I think. UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 85 comparatively seldom that a man gets a first class who takes up a subject in the English language. A period of the history of India was put in. It was thought that the study of certain different conditions of Asiatic society might compensate for foreign languages being omitted; but there again it is rather hard to get a first class. 1418. Why would you exclude Indian history ? — Chiefly on the ground that it prevents men from being obliged to get up foreign languages. 1419. Does it work in well with the study of modern history generally ? — Yes, fairly well, I think. On the whole I think that it would be better if it went to the Oriental department. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o’clock. OXFORD. Friday, 26th October 1877. Present : The Right Honourable LORD SELBORNE in the Chair. The Right Hon. the Earl op Redesdale. I The Rev. James Bellamy, D.D. The Right Hon. Montague Bernard, D.C.L. | Professor Henry J. S. Smith, M.A. The Rev. T. Verb Bayne and T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretaries. James Bryce, Esq., D.C.L. (Regius 1420. {Chairman.) It will be convenient if you would follow the order which is noted in the paper which you have been good enough to hand in, and perhaps you will first give us your opinion with regard to the probable increase in the number of students of law ? — With respect to that I only wish to mention to the Commissioners that the present number of law students, as computed by the attendance at lectures, and the number who go in for examinations, is hardly to be taken as showing the requirements which there may be in the future, because the number has been steadily increasing of late years, and seems likely to increase still further; and in particular I think that if arrangements are made, such as we hope may be carried out, with the Inns of Court, the numbers of those who go in for the law school will increase very much. At present the Inns of Court recognise our examinations to some extent, but not completely, and if they did recognise them more completely as excusing a man from the examinations which the Council of Legal Education holds in London, I think that the number of attendants here woukl sensibly increase. In the same way I Incline to believe that the more professors we had here, and the more complete and regular our whole system of law teaching was, the greater would be the number who attended the law lectures, and went into the Law School. 1421. {Mr. Bernard.) Will you state in a few words what the university has asked or may be sup- joosed to desire from the Inns of Court with respect to the examinations ? — ^The present position of things is this, that the Inns of Court, or, as I should rather say, the Council of Legal Education, have made a regulation under which persons who have passed a law examination at the university in jurisprudence, Roman law, and real and personal property, and obtained a law degree, are excused from passing in those subjects the examination for a call to the bar in London. Unfortunately that regulation does not apply to the examination in our Jurisprudence School, because the Jurisprudence School is regarded as being one of the Arts Schools, and does not entitle a man to a law degree ; therefore students who pass in Roman law and jurisprudence in our Jurisprudence School do not come under that rule, and gain no benefit, so far as exemption from examination goes, when they go to London. We have represented this hardship to the Council of Legal Education, and asked them to recog- nise the Jurisprudence School examination, but for Professor of Civil Law), examined. some reason or other they declined to do so. How- ever we have not abandoned the hope that they may recognise it. 1422. {Chairman.) Are there any other subjects of their examinations which are not included in your course here ? — The whole course of examinations that they hold is in jurisprudence, Roman law, real and personal property, common law and equity. 1423. Then common law and equity is the only subject which yon do not undertake here ? — I should say we considfer that we do really undertake it, because in addition to our Jurisprudence School, which is one of the avenues to the Bachelor of Arts degree, we have also a Law School proper which grants the B.C.L. degree, and in that we have a complete ex- amination in English law, as well as in Roman law. International law, and jurisprudence, which includes what in the Inns of Court’s scheme comes in under conmon law and equity, and therefore we think that we give an examination quite as complete as theirs. 1424. So that as far as relates to the degree the Inns of Court do accept it, and might accept it for more subjects than at present ? — Certainly, that is our view. 1425. But common law and equity would not be included in the examination for this school ? — They come into our Jurisprudence School to a limited extent only. The examination in that school includes at present jurisprudence, Roman law, the history of the law of real property, constitutional law, and the law of contracts ; it does not cover the whole of what they call real and personal property, and still less ofi~what they call common law and equity. But our examina- tion for a degree in law, the B.C.L. degree examination, does cover all these subjects ; the only difference practically between the examination that we hold and the examination which is held in London being that we may perhaps set fewer questions which can be said to turn upon practice. Our common law and equity questions turn much more upon the principles of law, whereas in London they set also questions relating to practice. 1426. {Mr. Bernard.) There was, if I remember rightly, a joint deputation to the Council of Legal Education from this university, from Cambridge, and from the University of London, in which you and I took a part? — Yes, that was several years ago, 1427. {Chairman.) May we infer that so far as your knowledge goes, the difference in the character L 3 OXFORD. R. Laing, Esq M.A. 25 Oct. 1877, J. Bryce, Esq., B.C.L 26 Oct. 1877 86 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J. Bryce, Esq., D.C.L, 26 Oct. 1877. of the instruction given here and that given by the tutors or readers of the Inns of Court is, that this is on the whole more scientific, and theirs on the whole more technical ? — I cannot speak from direct know- ledge of what their instruction is, but only from what I know of their examinations. We do not attempt to make our lecturing here so technical aswe should per- haps do if we were lecturing to men who had already had some practical experience in chambers ; we do not attempt to give them more than the outlines of practice, and rather aim at a scientific and systematic exposition of the principles of law. 1428. Is your knowledge of their examinations sufficient to enable you to say whether the test which you apply here is stricter or laxer than that which they apply in London ? — My personal knowledge of it is only confined to the examinations which they hold in Roman law and jurisprudence, international law, and constitutional law. I have examined for the Council of Legal Education for the last two years, and so far as Roman law is concerned, I should say that our standard is very much higher. 1429. Is your examination here in the other subjects relatively as high as your examination in those two ? — That would apply only to the examination for the degree of B.C.L., and in that I think I may say it is. 1430. Before passing from that first branch of the subject as to the number of students, will you tell us whether you think that any considerable number of those students adopt the Law School as the easiest mode of getting an arts degree, or of getting honours of any kind ? — I believe that a certain number did so at first, but I fancy that they certainly do not do so now, because the Law School, so far from being the easiest, is at present one of the most difficult avenues to the B.A. degree. 1431. Are the honours in the Law School on the whole more easy to obtain than in any other school ? — I should decidedly say not, but I have no direct experience of any other school except the Classical School, with which I am pretty well acquainted. 1432. Do most of the students, so far as you are able to judge, come with professional objects? — I fancy that the large majority of those who pass through the Jurisprudence School intend to become either barristers or solicitors. I am told that the number who intend to become solicitors is large, and there is no doubt that if it is large now, it is likely to increase still further. 1433. Do you think that the tendency which now exists to come to the university at a later age than was formerly the case is consistent with the access of many men who mean to be solicitors ? — I do not see that it can be in fact inconsistent, because the number of those who intend to be solicitors is steadily increasing. One finds more and more, even in London, a great number of persons amongst the solicitors who have been at the university. But the number would certainly be much larger if students came and left at an earlier age. I may say, in passing, that it seems to me that the greatest misfortune under which the university labours is that the age at which men come to it from school has risen so much. It would be a great deal better if men came up at 16 or 17, as they formerly did ; now they mostly come at 19. 1434. That, I suppose, depends more upon the schools than upon the university ? — That depends upon the schools, no doubt, whose interest it is to keep the men, but I do not think the university is quite without means of self-defence against it. I should like to add one remark to complete what I have said about the relation of the university to the Inns of Court, and that is as to the way in which the Inns of Court deal with our examination for the B.C.L. degree. They do recognise it as exempting a candidate from ex- amination in London in Roman law and jurisprudence, and to some extent they recognise it as exemj)ting from examination in real and personal property, but they do not recognise it at all as exempting from an examination in common law and equity, and our wish and aim has been to induce them so to modify their rules that our examination here for the B.C.L. degree, which really covers all these subjects, should be recognised by them as being a complete title to the call to the bar, and as dispensing with their own examination, except in so far as they might think it desirable to set additional questions upon points of practice. We should not attempt to teach practice, but everything else we think we can teach here as well as it can be taught in London. 1435. You also wish that your certificates given in the examination for the arts degree should be accepted ? — Yes, so far as Roman law and jurispru- dence are concerned. 1436. {Mr. Bci'nard.) Would there be any difficulty in giving the Inns of Court the power of satisfying themselves as to the sufficiency of that examination by themselves taking part in it? — So far from there being a difficulty on our part, it has been the wish of several of the law professors here to invite the Council of Legal Education to take part in our law examination. The plan was suggested by Mr. Holland, from whom you have, I think, already h.ad evidence, and seemed to us a very good one. We think that if they would consent to appoint an examiner along with our law examiners for the B.C.L. degree, that would satisfy them of the standard of our examination, and would be an additional means of connecting our law studies with the profession in London. 1437. {Earl of Rcdesdale.) Have you made such a communication to them? — We have sounded them privately, but have not yet made an official communi- cation, in fact we cannot do so, it must come from the university. I only speak at present of the wishes and ideas of the law professors, but the university is the only body that can officially make such a suggestion. 1438. {Prof. Smith.) Are you aware that the Medical Council exercise a supervision of the kind to which you have referred over the examinations in the faculty of medicine in this university ? — I understand that to be so. 1439. And that the university has never raised any objection to their doing so ? — Yes, and that would quite be a parallel to what we should like to see introduced. 1440. ( Chairman.) We may now pass to the next point, as to the relation of the present law course to the examination for the law degree ? — I find that I have practically anticipated what I was going to have said under that head by mentioning the number and the nature of the examinations, that we have a Juris- prudence School, which is an avenue to the arts degree, and a Law School, which gives the B.C.L. degree. 1441. Will you now speak of the teaching of law in Germany and America ? — On that head I have only this to say, that the experience which I had in Germany as a law student at Heidelberg, and what I saw in America in visiting two or three of the most important law schools, hearing the lectures of the professors, and making inquiries from them and their past and present students about the matter, convinced me that a really good legal teaching only requires to be given to be appreciated, and that if we did provide a complete legal course here we might very well expect that students would come to it simply for the sake of instruction, even apart alto- gether from the advantages which it gave them in dispensing with the examinations in London. The universal testimony of the American lawyers was to tlie immense advantage which persons intending to become practitioners (in America barristers and solicitors form one profession) derived from the teaching of their law schools. And the classes in those law schools were very large, and, so far as I could judge, exceedingly well taught. 1 442. May I ask whether in those countries they are taught by resident or non-resident professors ? — They are taught there by both classes of persons ; but in all cases, I think, by persons who either are or have been practising lawyers. I speak at present of UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION'. — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 87 America. It is not quite the same in Germany ; but then the case in Germany is modified in another u^ay, which perhaps I may be permitted to mention presently. I should think it probable that most of the law teaching in America is given by lawyers who are actively engaged in practice, and the rest certainly is by people who have been in practice. I can only speak from a comparatively small direct knowledge, chiefly of the legal teaching in New York and in Massa- chusetts, but it is there to a very large extent given by people actually in practice ; it was given formerly to some extent, and it is given still, by judges as well as by counsel. Story’s well-known works were all, I think, originally composed as lectures to a class. 1443. Was he judge at the time ? — Yes, he was judge at the time in the Supreme Court of the United States. He was in the habit of coming from Wash- ington all the way to Cambridge, Massachusetts, in order to lecture there in the Law School of Harvard University. 1444. Was Kent a judge at the time that he gave his lectures ? — That I cannot say ; I rather think not, but am not sure. 1445. You do not know whether he was a resident or non-resident professor ? — I should presume that he resided in New York at the time that he gave the lectures; and he never was a judge except in New York. 1446. (ATr. Bernard.) At New York and Cam- bridge the difficulty of non-residence could hardly be said to arise ? — It arises to some extent. When I was at Cambridge one of the best and most largely attended courses of lectures was given by a Rhode Island lawyer, who bore the title, I think, of judge, although he was then a practising counsel ; and he came all the way from Providence, in Rhode Island, to give those lectures. 1447. But commonly the courses in Cambridge would be given by lawyers practising in Boston, we may presume ? — That is generally but not universally so. 1448. {Chairman.) That would be more like the position of University College in London, would it not ? — Yes, or the lectures connected with the Inns of Court in London. 1449. {Mr. Bernard.) Professor Washburne, who was a lawyer of great distinction, lectured at Cam- bridge, residing probably in Boston ? — When I saw him he had come to live in Cambridge ; at one time he lived in Boston, and had a large practice there. 1450. {Chairman^ You were going to tell us what are the circumstances in Germany which are analo- gous to those of which you have spoken in America ? — in Germany I think the great bulk of the lectures are given by people who are not actually in practice ; but, on the other hand, the connexion between the prac- tical and the theoretical study of law is closer in Germany than it has been in this country, because the whole of their legal system has much more of a theo- retical character than ours has, and has been built up into its present shape mainly by the labours of teachers, nearly all the chief legal writers, and most of the statesmen who have directed legislation and the drafts- men who have given shape to it, having been teachers of law, whereas in England it is by the judges and by text writers who have been practising counsel but not teachers that the law has been formed. There is in Germany a great body of legal literature which deals with the interpretation of the Roman law with reference to practical questions ; and these questions, when argued in the courts, seem to be argued more with reference to this literature than to reported cases. In fact this literature very much fills the place which in England is filled by the reports. Moreover, in a German university there exists what is called the Spruch Collegium ; that is to say, the legal faculty or a committee of it forms a body which is empowered to give answers upon legal questions submitted to them, and therefore in that way their attention is constantly ailed to questions of practice; and they give opinions^ just as a practising counsel would, in grave cases. 1451. Do you mean opinions which are received as of authority by the courts ? — 1 believe so. I do not know that the courts would take them as binding in the same sense in which we should take a decided case, hut they certainly have great weight. 1452. Are they consulted by public authority, or by private persons ? — I fancy generally by public authority, in fact sometimes by the courts themselves, something in the sort of way, to compare small things with great, as the House of Lords consults the judges. 1453. In the same way as in the case of Henry the Eighth’s divorce, for example ? — Yes, in that sort of way, but that is pretty frequent I believe. Moreover, many professors of law in Germany are in the habit of so far practising as to give opinions, as individuals, upon points of law submitted to them, so that in one way and another the juristic teaching of the universi- ties is pretty closely connected with the practice of the law. Professors are frequently asked to advise the ministry as to legislation, and not unfrequently are appointed to offices connected with the legal depart- ment of government. To take the instance of the most illustrious jurist of modern times, Savigny, whose reputation was made as a teacher and writer, was Minister of Justice in Prussia. I might just add, in conclusion, that the reason why I referred to America was, to explain that it seemed to me that the practice of America showed that, even with a system like our English law, which is supposed to be more difficult to teach than the Roman law, good teaching would have an immense practical value, and that it could be given quite as well here by professors as it could be given in London. 1454. I suppose you think that the distance of the prospect of any great law school in London increases the necessity for activity in that direction here ?— Unquestionably. 1455. What have you to say with regard to the need of an increase of law professorships ? — The Board of Studies gave in a recommendation on the subject ; and their answer to some questions suggested to them by the Council will, I think, pretty nearly represent what my own feeling about it would be. They suggested that we wanted at least three or four professors of English law, one of whom should be specially devoted to constitutional law and legal history, or public law, and two or three of whom should lecture over the general field of private law. 1456. As I read the paper the matter stands thus: in the year 1873, the Board, of which I think Mr. Bernard was at that time the chairman, recommended two additional lecturers, and in 1874, when you were chairman, the request enlarged itself to four or five additional professors ? — Yes, that was the case. 1457. Then in 1876 (page 94), the Board of Studies recommended two professors of jm-isprudence (that is, one additional professor) ; two professors of civil law (that is, an additional one) ; four professors of English law (that is, three additional, making five) ; then one professor of international law, and one pro- fessor of Oriental law (that is, one additional, making six) ; six professors in addition to the existing four. Upon that proposal, I should like to ask, what are the grounds for recommending two professors as distinct from a professor and a reader of the two first subjects, jurisprudence and civil law, and what division of labour or duty between them was contemplated ? — As regards the professor of jurisprudence, I may say that my own private opinion is that one professor of jurisprudence is enough. I see no present occasion for another professor or reader. 1458. The whole theory of law as a general science is what is meant by jurisprudence, is it not ? — I think so, and to some extent I fancy researches into legal history such as Sir Henry Maine’s. 1459. And in your individual opinion one professor of that subject is sufficient ? — I should have thought so, speaking with great deference to the opinion of the colleagues from whom I have the misfortune to differ. 1460. Would it not be so too as regards civil law? -—I am not quite clear of that, because civil law seems L 4 OXFORD. J. Bryce, Esq., JD.C.L, 26 Oct. 1877. 88 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J. Bryce, Esq., D.C.L. 36 Oct. 1877. to me to have two sides here, both of which are im- portant, and which are to some extent distinct. The one side is that on which it connects itself witli the classical and historical studies of the place, and parti- cularly with Roman history, and one professor might very well devote himself to that branch of the study, and the other and more important side of civil law is that in which it appears as an introduction to legal studies altogether, and in fact the best introduction even to the study of English law. This, which may be called the practical and professional aspect of civil law, treating it as a working system which has many points of comparison with English law, and is the source of most of the law of modern Europe, is more than enough to occupy one professor. However, I do not know that it is absolutely necessary to have two professors of civil law, although I think there would he ample room for two. 1461. You think, so to speak, that it is desirable to have a sort of bridge between the two schools, between the Law and the History Schools, when the studies are separated? — Our feeling was that as regards Roman law, its true relation rather is with the Classical or Ancient History School than with the Modern History School. We think that Roman law ought to be studied in connexion with the history of the ancient world generally, and Roman history in parti- cular, much more than it has been hitherto, and this view has to some extent been recognised by the Board of Classical Studies, who have selected the Institutes of Gains as one of the special subjects in the final classical School. That is what I meant by speaking of its historical side; but although that is all very well, the purely legal side seems far more important, since thereby a philosophical character or direction can be given to legal study, and to the minds of young lawyers, which hitherto has not been done, and which it would be more difficult to do by beginning with the English law. Then civil law is really a very extensive subject, and it is impossible in one year’s course to go over with sufficient minuteness all the topics included in it, and there- fore if we were to make sufficient provision for the men working in it, there would be ample occupation for tw'o professors going over the whole field. I have found that the most profitable way of treating it is to take up some one particular subject in each course, such as the law of contracts, the law of inherit- ance, the law of real rights, and so on ; but to go over the whole field in that way requires at least two years, and perhaps more. It seems to me, therefore, that there would be quite room for two professors continually working over the field in that way, and occasionally lecturing on Roman legal history. 1462. In this report you do not enter into the dis- tinction between the professors and readers, you say so explicitly ? — Yes, we have said so. 1463. Perhaps your object might be accomplished by a reader under a professor as well as by two professors? — To some extent that would be so, but the difficulty with regard to the reader seems to be that if the readership is paid at a lower figure, and the reader is only appointed for a short time, it is by no means certain that you would get the best men to go in as candidates. 1464. Will you now pass on to the next point as to occasional courses and grants from the common fund ; we see that the Hebdomadal Council and the Dean of Christ Church have recommended that very strongly ; is your view the same as that which they have ex- pressed ? — Yes, I should think that in the subject of law we might very profitably have occasional courses from time to time. 1465. Probably on that subject you have nothing to add to what they recommend ? — I do not know at this moment precisely what they recommend. 1466. In the book which you have in your hand you will see that the Hebdomadal Council have dealt with that matter, not specially as to the School of Law, but generally, at page 12, where they say, “ That in “ the interests of learning and science a fund should “ be formed and placed under the coi\trol of a small “ board,” and amongst other purposes which are to be answered by that fund, it is said at the end, “ Out “ of this fund also persons of high literary or scientific “ eminence might he remunerated for occasional “ lectures or courses of lectures.” The Dean of Christ Church dwells upon that subject in his letter which is at a later part of the pamphlet, at page 83, where he proposes the formation of such a fund to be placed under the control of persons carefully selected, and then he suggests that out of that fund a number of professorships, not necessarily permanent, should be maintained ; and he goes on to say, “ Out of this fund “ also persons of high literary or scientific eminence “ might be retained to give occasional lectures or courses of lectures on the subjects they have made “ their own.” Is that the same view which you would be prepared to recommend ? — In general I think I may say yes. The only difference that I should suggest as regards law is, that I think it ought to be considered as being a regular part of the systematic teaching of law to have those courses delivered, unless you have a sufficient number of professors and readers to cover the whold field. In that way we might perhaps dispense with the necessity of one of the readers or professors, if those occasional courses were made, so to speak, a regular thing. I might say with reference to English law that it would not be impossible, according to the view which the Board of Studies entertained, that some of those four new professors might be readers. I do not think that by using the word professors, they meant to exclude the possibility that some of them might be readers. The only difficulty that they felt, I believe, was this, that they thought it would require a long additional dis- cussion to state what they conceived the proper functions of the professors and the proper functions of readers were, and they would then have to go into the question of salaries, — a very important question since without offering such a salary as a county court judge receives it might be difficult to induce men of high legal ability to abandon the bar, — and the question of residence at some length, in order to explain how far they thought readers might supplement professors. 1467. Y’’ou are probably aware that the instruction given in the shape of lectures at the Law Institution in London to gentlemen intending to be solicitors is given entirely by occasional courses ? — Yes, I think so. 1468. Have you sufficient knowledge of its w'ork- ing to be able to say that it works satisfactorily ? — I believe it works very well. I have known several barristers who have lectured there, and they have generally been appointed for two years. They are, however, rather in the position of temporary pro- fessors than of mere givers of occasional courses. 1469. You would distinguish between the idea of occasional courses and very short temporary profes- sorships ? — They appear to me to be not quite the same thing. 1470. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you see any practical advantages to the law and the profession of the law in encouraging the study of law at the universities ? — Y’’es, I should think it would be a great advantage for the universities, and also a great advantage for the profession. It seems to me that in the university we should gain very much by having a firmer hold than we have at present upon the professions and upon the ■professional education of the country. In Germany, for instance, the university is regarded as being quite as much a place of professional education as a place of general education ; and the consequence is that the university has, if 1 may say so, a political and social importance by reason of its connexion with the professions which it hardly possesses in this country. And the professions would also gain very much. The student who has begun to learn law here in the university studies it in a more scientific way and acquires a more systematized knowledge of it than he is likely to do when he is reading in chambers in London, and he gets a far better idea of it as being a scientific subject. His whole conception of the pro- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 80 fcssional work of his life is elevated by the spirit, the liberal aful philosophical spirit, in which (it is to be hoped) he might be led to study it here in the univer- sity when he is still under the influence of the great philosophical minds whose works he has been studying in the Classical School. 1471. Do you think that a student here is likely to devote more continuous attention to the historical and scientific aspects of the law than he does or is likely to do in London ? — Decidedly. Here, under regular tc'aching, he may learn the whole thing systematically, get a conception of it as a series of rules embodying principles. In chambers in London he merely picks up a scrap here and a scrap there, and never gets a scientific, much less a historical, conception of the great principles of our English law, till he has been years and years in the profession, and in most cases not even then. This is the experience of all the Oxford men whom I know at the bar ; it is certainly my own. 1472. {Prof. Smith.) Has your attention been directed to the proposals which have been made by the Council at page 9 of this statement with reference to jurisprudence ? — Yes. 1473. Do you consider those proposals adequate or inadequate when combined, as they would have to be, with the general proposal on page 12 relating to ex- traordinary professorships? — My own private opinion would be that the proposals on page 9, even combined with the extraordinary professorships, were quite in- adetpiate. It seems to me that the subject is too wide and the number of men too lai-ge, and the whole im- portance of the thing too great, to be met by the proposals which the Council have made here. 1474. {Ckairmmi.) Perhaps we may now pass to the subject of university requirements generally, and the first point in your paper is as to the necessity for a complete staff of universitj- teachers irrespective of the colleges. What have you to say with regard to that? — On that point I only wish to express an opinion that it would be desirable for the provision for the teaching of every subject to be made upon the hypothesis that the university was bound to supply all what students could fairly ask from it, supposing no colleges to exist at all, that in fact it was making a complete supply of such public teaching as would be sufficient for men of average intelligence and industry. 1475. But supposing that a large provision is in fact made by the colleges, would not that involve a large waste of power ? — I should have thought that the provision which at present exists in the colleges is very wastefnlly given, and that it would be a great deal better if the general functions of education were transferred to the university, and the colleges left merely to supplement it by what might be called strictly private instruction. 1476. That would be to supersede the collegiate system of combined instruction by university in- struction ? — Exactly ; what seems needed is to take public education away from the colleges which have not, on the whole, given it well, and let the university undertake it. The colleges have their value and their functions, a very great value, as I venture to think, only not as teaching institutions. From 'what 1 can gather, the working of the combined system of college lectures, although it is better than the old system was, seems to be felt to be very inadec[uate and awkward, and only preliminary to the establishment of a proper system of university teaching. 1477. If that opinion should not be adopted, and if it should be thought right to maintain the integrity of the collegiate system, at least as to those subjects of instruction with which it deals extensively, do you still think that it would be possible to combine it witli a parallel system intended to provide for the whole wants of '.he students as if there were no collegiate instruction af all ; would the university professors in those subjects which were undertaken by the colleges have an attendance adequate to the cost of maintaining them ? — If your Lordship means in case the colleges still continued to keep up their system as at present, Q 022.3. T think it would depend partly upon the merits of the OR D. professors and lecturers, and partly upon the nature j Bryce, of the examination sjrstem. The examinatioii system Esq., D.C.L. governs everything in Oxford, and no doubt if the college teachers were to teach with a specific reference to the examinations, and the professors were to lecture without such reference, the competition of the college teachers would to a large extent be fatal to the uni- versity teachers. But I think | many of us feel here that the examination system requires considerable modifications, and is in many respects injurious to the studies of the place. 1478. {Mr. Bernard.) In law and history and natural science can it be said that there is at present any real system of collegiate instruction at all for men going into the Honour School ? — There was till lately, a sort of intercollegiate system of lecturing in law ; but there has never been a purely collegiate system in law or in history, for of course it would be impossible for each college to find in its regular staff a man com- petent for these subjects. At present there are several colleges which k(;ep law lecturers, and some of these serve more than one college. 1479. {Prof. Smith.) You would think it of im- portance would you not, that any private instruc- tion given in the colleges should be given by men of eminence and ability; and as much of the training of young men must depend upon instruction privately given, you would think it desirable that this part of their teaching should be placed in the hands of men to whom they would look with great respect? — No doubt the better men the college teachers were, so much the belter it would be for the men that they taught. 1480. I wish to direct your attention to the difficulty that might be occasioned in this respect by a complete separation of the private instruction in the colleges from the public instruction in the university ? — I do not deny that that is a difficulty, but it seems to me that it is one which might be overcome, and that on the whole the advantages as regards the economy of labour, and the probable superior excellence of the teaching which was given by people specially devoted to a particular subject, render it worth while to make our system of teaching entirely a university system, irrespective of the colleges. The danger which has been suggested of a man’s neglecting Ids university functions for his college functions is a real one, but might, I think, be overcome. One does not see that there is any objection in principle to allowing university teachers also to take college work, if it is distinctly understood that his university duties are the principal duties, and are really of a different nature from the college duties. 1481. {Chairman.) Would you pass to the next subject V hich I see you have noted down, the in- adequacy of the present lecture rooms. You are aware that the Hebdomadal Council have stated their views upon that subject very strongly, and that they say, “ There is a pressing need of proper lecture “ rooms for the use of professors. A report on this “ subject was ccmmunicated by the professors to the “ Council in June last, and the Council recommend “ the adoption of the following suggestions : (a.) That “ from 8 to 10 rooms should be provided, each capable “ of holding an audience of 60, and from 16 to 20 ‘‘ private rooms, {h.) That one large lecture room “ should be provided capable of holding an audience “ of from 100 io 150 persons;” and they also recom- mend certain improvements in the lecture room at the museum, and in the Sheldonian theatre. Does that adequately express your views upon the subject ? — -I think so generally. The reason why 1 wishetl to mention the subject was to take the opportunity of saying that one reason why the professorial system has not done what was at one time expected from it is the want of lecture room. This throws an im- mense difficulty in the way of professorial teaching. At present there is not a room I can find in the uni- versity which, in my own experience, is satisfactory as a lecture room. J482. {M?\ Bernard.) Does the room in which you ,M 90 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. .7. Bryce, Esq., D.C.L. 26 Oct. 1877. now lecture accommodate all the men with anything like reasonable comfort ? — No, it is a wretched little place at the top of the “ Clarendon ” building, and is very uncomfortable. 1483. Can they' take notes ? — They try to do so. 1484. Have they desks ? — Yes, they have desks, but they are very narrow ones, without ink-bottles or any places for ink-bottles. Moreover, the room is very badly ventilated, and it is so noisy that whenever a cart passes I have to suspend the lecture. 1485. You cannot find any other room for the pur- pose in the university ? — 1 might perhaps get the Taylor building, but it is not centrally placed and there is some competition for it. 1486. {C/ioirman.) Is the Divinity School in con- siderable use for lectures ? — For examinations I believe it is. I do not think it is often used for lectures, it would be rather too large for the purpose ; one would require to exert one’s voice more than is necessary for a class of 40 or 50 men, and it is not an easy room to speak in. This want of lecture rooms has really a serious effect in keeping down the pro- fessorial teaching at present. Undergraduates fre- quently say that it makes a great difference to their coming to lectures., 1487. Your next point is as to a common fund, and the purposes to which it should be applicable, what is your opinion with regard to that? — I wished merely to refer to that in a general way, because I see the Council have already referred to it ; it occurred to me to suggest one or two modes in which it might be made applicable. A section was introduced into the Act last year with special reference to this sug- gestion of a common fund, and it was introduced as a suggestion from people in Cambridge and here who thought that such objects as those specified might be carried out by means of it. We thought that it might furnish the means of meeting the demand that is made for the promotion of research without incurring the risk of having places which would be jobbed away. 1488. Do you observe that one of the points noted by the Council is this : — “ Out of this fund special “ grants might be made for longer or shorter periods “ to promote original research in any branch of “ literature or science ? ’’ — Yes ; and with regard to that I wish to suggest that we thought a certain part of this common fuiul might be placed at the disposal of a board in each subject consisting of the pro- fessor and other persons associated wdth him, who might be empowered to make payments for pieces of work which, in their judgment, actually wanted doing. We find, for instance, in the studies of law and history that every now and then there is some particular inquiry which ought to be made and which would not be remunerative, such as a book requiring to be translated and printed, which a publisher could not be got to undertake, or perhaps some book re- quiring to be edited. 1489. Would it not be better that each such board should send in its own recommendations of that sort to a body specially formed for the distribution of that fund, than that you should apportion the fund between the boards ? — That would be quite within what I intended to suggest. I did not mean that the board should have absolute discretion as to the appli- cation of the money. 1490. (Mr. Bernard.) The publishing is done to some extent now by the University Press, is it not ? — Yes, it is, 1491. But the delegates do not speq,d all their money in publishing books which are not likely to be remu- nerative? — No. Of course people feel a delicacy in asking them to do so. 1492. A part of the useful work they do consists in publishing such books? — Yes, they have published some valuable books of that character. 1493. Books which an; likely to be useful to learn- ing or science, but not likely to pay the publisher ? — Yes. 1494. (Chairman.) They have from time to time done something in that way, have they not ? — Yes, they have, rather irregularly but that would not quite meet what we desire. 1495. (Mr. Bernard.) Of course their interests as representing a learned corporation and their interests as representing a large commercial concern conflict somewhat in that respect ? — Exactly. 1496. (Chairman^ Will you go to your next point, which is as to the importance of attracting and making provision for students who come for one or two years only, not intending to take a degree ?— I should like to say under that head that it seems to me that in lecturing we have hitherto looked a little too much to the students who come here only to go through the regular course and take the regular arts degree, and that the development of ihe professoriate would have a great additional advantage in supplying the best instruction that you could offer to people who have not the time or the money to go through the regular course, but who want instruction from the best men upon some particular topic. We might increase the number of students very greatly and usefully if we made a better jnovision of public teaching, and if we were to offer those advantages to men who have not money for the purpose, or for some other reason do not wish to come and reside here three or four years, but only perhaps a year or two years to study one particular branch. 1497. Does that class already exist in the uni- versity ?— It exists to a limited extent already, and to an extent which miglit easily be largely increased. Even in my own experience I have often had inquiries from people who desired to come up to the university to study some particular subject in tliat way, and who wanted to know whether the colleges would receive them, and how far they -would be expected to comply with the ordinary regulations as to passing examina- tions. 1498. Are all the unattached students now required to pass the ordinary examinations at the usual time ? — I believe that when an unattached student j)ioves to the satisfaction of the delegates of unattached students that he is here for the purpose of bona, fide study in some particular branch, they have the power to dis- pense with the passing of the examinations. And it is rather in that direction, I think, that we might go further by letting it be better known that we are prepared to receive such studentk. 1499. Can you tell us for what branches of instruc- tion students to your knowledge have come, not intending to take a degree, but to receive the benefit of university instruction ? — 1 have known cases of students who came in that way with a view to instruc- tion in law and in history, and also cases of men who desired to receive instruction in some particular branches of natural science. 1500. (Prof. Smith.) Y"ou are aware that one of the colleges in the university has adopted a resolution by which it admits persons, who can show that they intend to pursue a serious course of study, to matricu- late and to reside under the circumstances of which you speak without requiring that they should pass through any of the university examinations ? — 1 did not know that this had been done in that breadth. I knew that there had been something of the kind. 1501. (Mr. Bernard.) You have known, perhaps, persons coming from distant countries, as from the east, for that purpose ? — Yes, and also from America. And I may say that in Germany the number of stu- dents who come in that way is very large. A great many students come to an university attracted by the fame of some particular teacher and wishing to hear only him, or to work at some particular subject, and they are matriculated, and become for all purposes members of the university. They are not expected to go through any particular curriculum, but are per- fectly free to attend any lectures they like. 1502. Are there not in Germany persons who attend without being matriculated. I have in my hand the German University Calendar for 1875, and I see that in the university of Berlin the number of matriculated students was 1,824, and the number of UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 91 persons who were entitled to attend lectures without being matriculated was 1,736, so that the total number was 3,660 ; do you know whetber it is necessary for a student to be matriculated in order to attend lectures in Germany ? — I gather frorr. that that it cannot be so in that university. I am giving my own experience of the University of Heidelberg ; although I went there only to attend the lectures of one professor, I was required to be matriculated, and in fact became a mem- ber of the university for all purposes. 1.703. {Chairman.) It is not universally necessary here, is it ? — I think that attendance at lectures here by a person who is not a member of the university is only by the favour or the indulgence of the individual professor. L504. I i)resume that all the public lectures may be attended by anyone who wishes to go to them ? — I do not suppose that most of the professors would practi- cally put any difficulty in the way of anyone residing in Oxford who desired to do so ; but there would be two advantages in making people who come in that way members of the university ; the one is that the university would have jurisdiction over them, and the other that it would be satisfactory to themselves to feel that they were members of the university, and it would give them a better social position here. 1505. I presume that a large number of the sons of the richer classes have always come to the univer- sity without intending to pass through the final schools ? — A certain proportion, I should not have thought a large one, have done so. 1506. A not very considerable proportion ? — I should think not, and I believe that the colleges have usually expected them to go through the earlier parts of the examinations. One’s wish rather would be that those exceptional students, if one may call them so, should not be expected to pass responsions or modera- tions at all but simply be free to go to whatever lectures they found to be most useful for them. 1507. Your last point is as to the mode of appoint- ing professors, and the inexpediency of giving a voice to the colleges ? — Upon that point I merely wish to remark that a plan has been several times followed, when a professorship has been founded in some way connected with a college, of giving the college a voice in the election of the j>rofessor. 1 think there is a pretty general feeling in Oxford, which maj have been represented to the Commission already, that this is not altogether desirable, and that it would be better if the appointment of professors w^re committed to persons specially chosen for their fitness, and that a college merely because it happens to contribute a part of the endowment ought not to be held entitled to have a voice in the election. 1508. I do not think we have yet had that opinion stated to us. I think one gentleman who was an advocate for rather extensive changes made the opposite suggestion, that where college funds are made use of the college should have a voice in the election ? — I know that both views are entertained in Oxford, and I thought it worth while to mention it to the Commission that there exists this view also, that a college ought not to be held entitled to a voice in the matter merely because it contributes a part of the salary. 1509. {Prof. Smith.) Let me mention to you the constitution of the board which appoints the Corpus Professor of Jurisprudence; it consists of five persons, namely, the Regius Professor of Civil Law, the Ciiichele Professor of International Law, two eminent lawyers selected by Corpus Christ! College with the approval of Convocation, and some one de|)uted mem- ber of that society ; it is with special reference to your last suggestion that I wish to ask you to express an opinion ? — I think that the plan of giving votes to the two eminent persons is unexceptionable. 1510. {Chairman.') Do you think that reliance is to be placed upon extrinsic nominators as likely to enter sufficiently into the wants and circumstances of the university in any choice which they may make ? — I should have thought that it would be undesirable to leave it altogether to them, hut that they would in a professional study like the law be valuable elements in any electoral board. 1511. They might be good judges of the legal qualifications of a particular person, no doubt, but on the other hand they might not give sufficient weight to the academical side of the question ? — I think, there- fore, that it would be undesirable to commit it alto- gether to them, but it appears to me that one or two professional electors would be useful. 1512. {Prof. Smith.) In the case which I laid before you the external members of the board would have been selected by an academical body, would they not ? — Yes, that meets the difficulty in some degree. 1513. {Chairman.) Supposing that the Lord Chan- cellor or the Lord Chief Justice or men in similar positions were asked to perform that duty, do you not think that it would be natural and almost unavoid- able for them to prefer the best candidate in a legal ])oint of view, the most eminently distinguished man for his legal knowledge and qualifications ?— I think that would be their own tendency, but I think it would be modified by the opinions of the academical members of the board with whom they discussed the question. 1514. Would not the academical members be likely to pay them great deference in case of a difference of opinion ? — No doubt they would, but I think they ought to have tbe courage of their opinions. 1515. Is it clear that they would have an opinion sufficiently definite to give them the courage of it ? — I do not see why they should not. 1516. My impression is that in that way you would often get men whose practice and prospects of advancement in their profession would be found incompatible with their giving efficient service to the university? — It would not at all follow that it is not desirable to have professional lecturers when they were occupying the highest professional stations, because their time is naturally so much engaged in other things that they might not be able to devote sufficient attention to the merits of the candidates ; but I j)i esume that in such a case as this which Pro- fessor Smith has suggested with regard to two persons selected by Corpus Christi College, the college would be likely to nominate people as electors not so much for their professional or social position as in respect of their interest in legal studies, and their power of select- ing competent men. 1517. {Mr. Bernard.) You are a practising barris- ter, are you not ? — Yes. 151S. How long have you been in practice ? — About 10 years. 1519. What has been the character of your prac- tice ? — At first I was a member of the common law bar and went the northern circuit, but for the last seven years I have practised chiefly in what is now the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice. There are two points which I had intended to refer to in giving evidence, but which were inadvertently omitted, and on which I therefore ask leave to add a word or two. The first relates to the main characteristic of the educational arrangements of the English, as compared with that of all other universities. There is a great and growing feeling in Oxford (and I believe in Cam- bridge also) that our examination system has quite outrun its original purpose, and is now exercising a pernicious influence on teaching and study. Exami- nations were originally instituted for the sake of teaching, to test it : now teaching is given for the sake of examinations, to train men fora race in which valuable prizes are given. It would take too long to state the various forms in which this mischievous influence appears, and discuss the remedies proposed ; hut it may be worth while to call the attention of the Commissioners to the fact that the university, feeling the evils of the present state qf’ things, may probably before long make considerable changes which will M 2 OXFORD. J. liryce, Esq., TJ.C.L. 26 Oct. 1877. 92 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J. Bryce, Esq,, D.C.L. 26 Oct. 1877. Rev. T. Fowler, M.A, diminish the control now exercised by the examina- tions over both university and college instruction, and remove the chief obstacle that now exists to the development of professorial teaching. Secondly. Among the parents of young men in- tended for business tiiere is an increasing desire to give their sons the benefit of a university education ; but lhere is also a strong feeling that to sueceed in business a young man ought to enter it not later than 20 or 21 years of age, whereas most of our students now remain at Oxford till 22 or 23, and those who obtain the highest honours even later. There is also an impression, by no means unfounded, that our present educational system is not the most bracing and stimulating that could be devised ; that it is adapted rather to form professional scholars and critics than to send men into the practical work of the world with vigorous and inquiring minds, minds inspired by a high conception of knowledge. However important the former object may be, it may be too exclusively pursued ; and people complain that the best Oxford men are too exclud\ ely critical, and that their critical habit often lapses into dilettantism. May it not, there- fore, deserve to be considered, (first) whether stu- dents ought not to be encouraged, perhaps even com- pelled, to come up from school to Oxford at an earlier date than they now do, so that they may enter on the work of life by 21, and (secondly) whether a system of professorial teaching resembling that of the Scotch and American universities (whicli is far more disci- plinary than our professorial teaching) would not be better fitted for these men than the present collegiate system which is seldom stimulating, and is mainly directed towards preparation for examinations ? There is good reason to believe that if some such alterations, and particularly an alteration in the age of entrance, were made, the number of students intending to go from the university into mercantile life, and also into such professions as those of a solicitor or an engineer, would be very largely increased. Nor need it be thought that the difficulties of discipline would be found greater in the case of students of 17 than they are now with students of 19; while the example of Scotland shows that men’s minds are perfectly fit for what may be called the characteristic studies of a university at the earlier age. The witness withdrew. The Rev. Thomas Fowler, M.A., (Professor of Logic,) examined. 1520. {Chairman.) I think the first point upon which you wish to be examined is as to the relation of the colleges and the university to each other with regard to instruction ; will you be so good as to state your views upon that subject ? — I may state that the evidenc‘d which I am about to give is evidence of an experience of some 22 years’ teaching in Oxford. I was for 20 years lecturer or tutor of my college, and I have been between four and five years a ])i'ofessor. In the first two years of my professorship I combined the two offices of college lecturer and professor. Per- haps 1 may also state that the opinion which I am about to give was formed some years before I became a professor, or supposed that I should ever become one. Indeed, some time before I became a professor myself, I had already expressed before two Commissions a strong opinion in favour of professorial as opjiosed to tutorial teaching. Looking at the university as an in- stitution having two objects, (1) the cultivation and ad- vancement of learning, and (2) the education of young men, I tliink it must be confessed that it fulfils the former very imperfectly, while I believe that the latter would be fulfilled far more effectually than at present, if the work attempted by the teachers was of a less feverish and what I nmy call a less competitive charac- ter. I believe that the teaching is over done, and that both teachers and taught would profit if the teachers would spend more time on the acquisition of knowledge for themselves and less on the preparation of their pupils. Perhaps the Commission will allow me to make reference to one or two foreign works. It is quite possible that }our attention has already been directed to them. One is a report by two French commissioners, M. Demogeot and M. Montucci, on the superior instruction in England and Scotland, published in 1870. I refer first to page 29, in which the writers say that the English univer,-ities are hardly more than abstractions, the colleges are the reality. It will be convenient, as I am about to found part of my recommendations on the faults in our system which these writers mention, that I should give a rough translation of a passage, which though based upon IMr. Paftison’s work, seems also to express the in- dependent convictions of the writers. At page 180, they say : “ The causes of this evil, namely, “ the sophistical teaching in the jthilosophical “ subjects, are the actual constitution of the teach- “ ing body, the predominance of the tutorial system, “ and also the constitution of the Board of Exami- “ ners. The philosophical instruction is given not by “ professors who have devoted their lives to rendering ‘‘ themselves masters of one of the numerous branches “ of the moral and political sciences, but by young “ tutors often full of natural talent, but having no “ time to devote themselves to profound study. Nay, “ they never will have time, for their function of “ tutor concentrates all their energies on making a “ young army of pupils pass from time to time before “ successive boards of examiners. Their work for “ themselves is limited to reading, either during the “ vacations or during the very rare moments of leisure that they can steal from their work, the last “ books which have appeared upon the subjects which “ they teaeli. They become naturally the ardent “ neophytes of the last author that they have read, ‘‘ they repeat him in their lectures, and they lend b in sometimes the support of their own talent “ and of their own eloquence ; and when they “ become examiners it is on these books that they “ examine.” That perhaps is a little highly colourctl, but on the whole I believe it to be true. 1.521. Will you explain to us what the author that you have been ([noting means by “ sophistical ” — I think what he means is that a [iiqiil by his mode of answering alfects to have a knowledge which he does not really possess ; that is to say, he obtains the results of the inquiries of other persons without himself seeing the methods of processes by which they are ai'rived at. 1522. {Dr. Bellamy.) Does he confine that to the teaching of philosophy? — Yes; he is speaking of the teachers of philoso[)hy. 152.3. {Chairman.) Do you understand that the real meaning is that the [)upil is taught philosophy u[)on authority and not to be philosophical himself? — I think that the real mischief is that he is taught a number of doctrines, and results, which, being a young man, he has no means of verifying for himself, and which he receives much as his instructor has himself received them, that is to say, from the newest books or the authors who hapjten to be most in fashion, without anything like [tatient or profound study of the history of philosophy. 1524. Is it to be understood that according to the view which that writer represents, every student of philoso[)hy in the university ought to be himself a philoso[)her ? — -Every' studentin the Litermllumaniores School thinks hjmself more or less so, I believe. 1525. {Earl of Redesdalc.) Is it the fact, as there stated, that all the tutors take up the last work u[)on a subject and teach from it? — No, not all the tutors. I said that I thought the statement was somcMhat highly coloured, and that one ought to allow for certain excc[)tions ; but I think that roughly' and generally sj)eaking it does describe the evil to which we are subject. UNIVERSITY or OXFORD COMMISSION! — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 93 1.526. {Mr. Bernard.) Would not it be better that you sliould give us your own opinion with its (puili- fieations in your own words, rather tlian the opinion of tliose two French gentlemen, wliicli I shoidd not value nearly as higlily as yours, as to the effect of the system? — M}* opinion is that the teaching is too ambitious; that it is as a rule given by men too young, who have not had any opportunity of sufficiently ■wide reading on which to base the kind of instruction which they give. My object in bringing these pas- sages forward is to show that I think the teaching is given by men who have not sufficiently matured their own views or their own knowledge, in fact by men who are too young. Perhaps the Commissioners will also allow me to refer to a book which has just appeared by a German author. The quotations I will make from it are very short. J quote from the English transla- tion of Dr. Wiese’s Letters on Education, written in the year 1876. At j)age 65 he says, “The “ German universities combine scientific research with “ scientific teaching and training to scientific work, “ while scientific research is the exclusive business of academies, but the universities of England “ have pre-eminently confined themselves to teaching “ and examining,” (this is on rather a different subject, tbe want of a learned class in Oxford,) “ and the London University is simply an examining “ institution.” Then he goes on to say, “In “ Germany most of those who have passed through “ a gymnasium ora realschule of the first order enter “ upon scientific or professional studies as the natural “ sequel to school learning, but in England the “ universities, if we except the just mentioned Lon- “ don University, are still essentially schools;” by which he means that their functions are practically confined to education solely, and that they do not combine the two objects of a university, the cul- tivation of learning and the education of young men. L5fl7. You give us that opinion not only as ex- pressing the opinion of an external observer, but as expressing your own ? — Yes ; and as what [ think would strike any person coming as a stranger, and inquiring into our system of instruction. Then he says at page 1.31, “Twenty-five years ago I found “ at Oxford much more undisturbed devotion to study, “ and a real interest in the subjects ; at present, go “ where you like, you will find few men belonging “ to the university who are not actively or passively “ engaged in some examination.” 1528. {Chairman.) Perhaps if he went back 100 years, he would have said so still more? — Of course his point is that we are entirely occuj)ied with teach- ing for the examinations and examining, which I believe to be true. 1529. He would of course naturallj fall in with the men who were worth being introduced to in the colleges ? — Yes, he would ; and he found 25 years ago that the men had more leisure to acquaint them- selves with science and leaniing than they have now. 1530. {Mr. Bernard.) Was Dr. Wiese here for any length of time ? — I do not know. 1531. {Chairman.) Will you proceed with what you were about to state to the Commission ? — I put these forward as the opinions of foreigners upon Oxford, as pointing out certain defects in our system, which would be likely to strike a foreign professor who came to England. 'J'his state of things is, I think, due to two causes, first, the college system of instruc- tion, and secondly, the over elaboration and undue predominance of the examination system. The colleges are, in fact, so many rival schools, the main object of which is to beat one another in the competition for the classes. Flence the teaching is subordinated to the examinations, instead of the examinations to the teaching. The aim of an undergraduate is not so much 10 acfpiire a knowledge of his subject as to gain a place in the class list. And the object of the tutor is not so much to teach as to gain a class for his college, flence the inordinate amount of time devoted to essay writing, answering of questions in writing, &c. Mr. Pattison says, I think with some truth, that the object of our education seems to be to train writers of OXFORD, leading articles. The college tutors have of late years Eev~T really become private tutors, oflicially recognised and M A paid by the colleges. They are most conscientious and L. assiduous in their labours, but I ([uestion whether, 26 Oct. 1877. taking a wider view than that of the O.xford examina- tion schools, their efforts really conduce much to the advantage of their pupils, and I am confident that the amount of work which they give themselves acts most prejudicially in arresting the growth of their own know'ledge, and consequently in preventing the formation of a class of learned men in Oxford. My remedy for these evils is to transfer the whole or the greater part of the higher teaching — I wish to emphasise these words, the higher teaching — from the colleges to the university. I would bring back the tutors to the position which I believe they occupied some .30 or 35 years ago. They should exercise a general supervision over the studies of the under- graduates, and give catechetical lectures on the text books. But it should be understood that the office of lecturing to the more advanced students especially on subjects, as distinct from text books, is a function of the university rather than of the colleges. To bring about this result I would constitute a number of readers, paid partly by stipend and partly by fees. The fees should be paid out of the tuition fees of the colleges, and I shoidd require attendance at a cei lain number of lectures given by readers or professors, just as the colleges now require attimdancc at the lectures given by their tutors or lecturers. I only know of two objections to this proposal ; one, that it introduces a system of protection. My answer to •that is that the college tutors already enjoy a most stringent system of protection, and I only propose to extend similar provisions to the university teachers. I may add that I believe Oxford and Camhridge are the only universities in the world in which attendance at the professors’ lectures is not conqmlsory. The other objection is that this scheme has been tried and failed. My answer to that is that it was tried under very different circumstances from those which I pro- pose. When T was an undergraduate, which is now some 2d' or 25 years ago, every candidate for a degree was obliged to attend two courses of pro- fessors’ lectures, but that was extended to all the men, passmen as well as classmen. To make this pro- posal of mine usefid, I think it would be reijui.-ite to require attendance at a certain number of courses of lectures upon the particular subjects of the school in which the candidate offered himself for exa:nination, and to confine the requirement to candidates for honours. Further, at that time, 24- or 25 years ago, there was a much smaller staff of professors than there is now, and consequently an undergraduate had a much smaller choice than he has even at present, while we must remember that, if the staff of readers were materially increased, he would have a still larger choice than he has now. It would also be necessary, I think, to require the professors and readers to put out a programme of the lectures sometime before the term commenced. This appears a small matter, but I think it is a very important one, and I may add that there should be a power vested in the university either to reserve certain hours in the day for professorial lectures, or to require the university and college teachers to come to some mutual understanding on this subject. At present there is the very greatest inconvenience arising from the want of some proper understanding between the professors and the tutors, and even between the different professors themselves, as to the time of their lectures. Since I have been a professor I have never fixed any single time for my lecture about which I have not received a complaint. If I fix 1 o’clock I am told that men cannot be expected to come at luncheon time, and, if T fix ID or 1 1 I am told that men cannot be expected to come to me when they are engaged with their college tutors. 1532. (I)r. Bellamy.) As a matter of fact you have large classes, have you not ? — Yes ; fuit they are not so large as I think they would be if there were any .A1 3 94. UNIVKKSITY OF OXFOED COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFOED. Rev. T. Fowler, M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. understanding as to the time of lecturing between the professors and the tutors. Practically the hours from 10 to 1 are occupied hy college lectures, and therefore the professor must fix what is here regarded as an abnormal time from 1 to 2 o’clock, or from 4 to 5, or else he must clash with the college tutors. 1.533. {Chairman.') The undergraduates take their recreation in the afternoon, do they not? — Yes, they have luncheon from 1 to 2 o’clock, and after that they take their recreation. Practically in the two winter terms you must lecture between 10 and 1, and what- ever hour you select you clash with the college tutors. In most Other universities I think at least two hours are given to lecturing in the afternoon. 1534. [Mr. Bernard.) In some of the German universities the lectures continue almost every hour in almost every faculty from 7 in the morning to 7, or later, at night ? — Yes. When I was at Tubingen two or three years ago I used to notice undergraduates passing my windows at 6 o’clock in the morning. 1535. {Chairman.) Have they any institution in Germany like our long vacation ? — Their summer vacation is certainly not so long as ours. I am also strongly of opinion that the professors and readers should have some control over the examinations. This might be effected either, as I think was proposed hy Mr. Goldwin Smith many years ago, by the ])rofessoriate being directly represented on the Board of Examiners, the various professors and readers going in hy rotation, or else by the appointments being transferred from the vice-chancellor and proctors to the Board of Studies, of which I may mention that the professors are members. The present mode of appoint- ment is, I think, open to grave objections ; and, as the pivot on which the university education turns at present is the examinations, I think it may be worth while to say a little about it. It is a common saying in Oxford that the vice-chancellor’s appointments are generally good after his first year. The first year he has to satisfy his college, and, as the proctors are ojily in for one year each, of course the objection to their appointments is much greater than to those of the vice-chancellor. 1536. Is the appointment made hy each of them in- dividually ? — Yes ; each proctor nominates one, and the vice-chancellor nominates one. I believe, as a rule, that the proctors do wish to make the best ajjpoint- ments, hut of course the |)ressure is very considerable on a [u'oetor ; considering that he has been nominated to his own office hy the college there is a tendency undoubtedly to nominate members of the same college. 1537. If fit men are found there ? — I think they generally do take fit men, though not always the fittest. There is undoubtedly a tendency on the part of the vice-chancellor and the proctors to nominate men of their own colleges. The persons so nominated also are generally tutors of the college, and if a j)roctor goes outside his own college he usually nominates some man of about his own standing who is a college tutor. Perhaps it may he said that this is by no means invariably the case, but I am pointing out the tendencies. The practical effect of this mode of appointment is to give the college tutors an undue predominance in the examination schools, and to pre- vent the examinations from rising above the ordinary teaching of the tutors, or the defects of the tutorial system being j)roperly checked. Perhaps I might now say something on what I conceive to be the causes of the corn} T.rative failure of the professorial system at present as an instrument of teaching. I say as an instrument of teaching because I regard the professor as having two distinct duties; one, the cultivation and advancement of his subject, and the other the teaching of it. At present, I am speaking only of the comparative failure of the professoriate as a teaching body. First the examination .system gives an advan- tage to the younger teachers, who can, without loss of dignity, prepare men more directly and professedly for the university examinations than the professors and readers can do. I could not say to my class, you are likely to be asked such and such a question in the examination paper ; although I am afraid that when I wars a tutor I not uncommonly did say so. 1538. Why should you not say so ? — I think it would be lowering the dignity of a professor of the university, whose province it is to teach the subject, and not to prepare for examinations. 1539. {Ur. Bellamy.) Do you think that if the principal part of the teaching was in the hands of the professors they would not adapt their lectures to the examinations as much as the tutors do now, if the burthen of preparation rested more with them ? — I think not, and for this reason, among others, that the efficiency of the college tutor is measured to so large an extent by the number of his pupils who obtain first classes, whereas, in the case of a professor, there is nothing, like the name of the college, to point out what lectures a candidate has attended. 15 10. W ould not that act in a similar way ; that is to say, a professor being both a teacher and an examiner would either adapt his examination to his teaching, or his teaching to the examination, just in the same ■way ? — I think he would be more likely to examine in what he taught, which I think to be a better plan than teaching with a special reference to what he is about to examine in. I am aware of course that all this is disputed matter, but I have ventured to put my own view before the Commission. 1,541. {Chairman.) I confess I do not quite follow the proposition that a reference to the probability of certain questions being asked in the examination is beneath the dignity of the professor. There must be some reason why it should be asked in the examination, and if it is a bad reason it is very desirable that the professor should guard them against being misled by it ; but if it is a good reason .surely the professor might explain it, is not that so? — I can hardly agree with that. I think that the proper duty of a teacher is to teach his subject, and that he ought not to talk to the men about any ulterior consequences. 1542. I am assuming that this comes across him in the course of his teaching ? — In private intercourse I should agree that it might be so, but I should not like in a public lecture to 30 or 10 men, to say, “ I think “ the examiners are likely to ask you such and such “ parts of the subject.” 1543. {Mr. Bernard.) You probably think that the professor should hold up before his piq)ils a different object from mere success in jiassing the examinations ? — Yes, I think that he should regard the examinations as subsidiary to a knowledge of the subject, and not the subject as being taught for the purpose of gaining a first class. If I am teaching logic I wish my men to know the theory or the history of logic. I am not wishing that this or that man should obtain a first class. 1544. {Chairman.) What is your next point? — The second cause which I should assign is that there is a stringent system of protection for the college tutor, whereas there is no protection whatever for the professor. That I have spoken of before, and there- fore I need not enlarge upon it. The third reason is, I think, the inconvenient times at which the professor is obliged to lecture. Of course when the tutor and the professor clash, the undergraduate almost always goes to the tutor, because the tutor is in personal intercourse with him ; whereas the professor is not. The fourth reason, I should say, is the want of a pro- gramme of professors’ lectures, sufficiently explicit and issued at a sufficiently early date and in a suffi- ciently prominent manner. The programme is generally contained within the folds of the “ Gazette,” and not one undergraduate in twenty ever dreams of looking .at it. I would insist upon the profes,sors meeting at the end of every term and issuing a joint programme for the following term, which joint programme should be distributed in the colleges and accessible to the under- graduates. 1545. {Dr. Bellamy.) Does not one see a large placard of that kind ? — -Yes, that comes out in the second week in term, when all the lectures have begun ; and besides it does not give any explicit UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. i)5 infbrnuitioii. I :nn put down sini])ly us Icctuiing logic, it docs not siiy what the particular subject of my lecture is. The trouble attending the issuing a programme of the university lectures would be very small, and the expense very trifling. The fifth reason is the inadequate payment in many cases of the pro- fessors, compelling them to combine other eniploy- ments with their professorships. I think it is im- portant, if the professorships should be adequately remunerated, to require that no professor shall com- bine with his professorship any office involving either parochial or tutorial or financial work. I would not of course prevent him from being a fellow of a college or bolding any college office such as vicegerent or dean ; but any office which really required much of his time, such as a bursarship, and still more a college living or a tutorship, I would prevent him from holding, provided his income was sufficient adequately to sup- port him. 1546. Would you exclude him from university boards ? — No ; I would not do that. I do not know how university boards would get on without the pro- fessors. I wish that the university boards were far fewer in number and that they met less frequently. These are the main causes which have occurred to me. I daresay there may be several others. Unless the Commission is prepared to take some measures for transferring a considerable part of the educational work, from the colleges to the university, I should deprecate the creation of a large staff of professors and readers. The raison d’etre of a reader, anyway, ought to be to teach, and I can see no use in creating a large staff of readers and leaving side by side with it a rival system which must, if the past is any guide to the future, inevitably have the tendency to draw off their pupils ; that is to say, you might create half a dozen readers in a subject, but if you leave college tutors side by side with them, and make no provision for removing the obstacles which I have pointed out, the readers would soon have no classes or but small classes, as is the case with many of our professors at present. 1547. (Chairman.) You probably have considered the question in connexion with research and the pro- gress of learning, and the very little time that they would have for it ? — Yes ; but I am proposing a new class of readers. I should have two classes of uni- versity teachers, professors, and readers. The main function of the reader would be to teach, and the main function of the professor, although I would certainly make him a teacher, should be to study and advance his subject. My point here, is that to con- stitute a large elass of readers, whose raison d'etre ought to be to teacli, unless you took some means for providing them with classes, would be a waste of money. 1548. Under the present system, which you de- scribe as a failure from the causes which you have mentioned, has the result been that the professors having considerable leisure have as a rule generally contributed to research 'i — I think certainly that a good deal has been done by them. There are few professors in the university who have not written books, or who ai'e not writing books, or who have not obtained a reputation for considerable learning. I will take one of my own colleagues. Professor Chandler; he has not written more than one or two books, but I should think that if any one in England required any information on any branch of the Aristotelian philo- sophy the first person that he would consult would be Professor Chandler ; and even if a man does not write books, to have in the university or in the kingdom a man of that kind is very well worth the expenditure of public money. 1549. In fact, you would regard any useful work done by a professor having leisure as an example of what is desired? — Yes; I do not think that the functions of a professor are by any means confined to the university. I sometimes myself receive letters from people outside the university asking me about points connected with my subject ; and with professors who are better known than myself, this is very fre- quently the case. Professor Max Muller tells me that sometimes letters of that kind take him two or three hours in the morning to answer. People wanting information on special points naturally write to the professor of tliat subject in the university. I have already had three or four letters this term asking questions on the subjects of my chair. If no attempt is to be made on the part of the university to vindicate its right to teach, it would be better distinctly to recognise the professors as existing mainly for the purj)ose of studying and advancing their subjects. In that case I think that the present requirements of teaching and residence are too stringent and should be to some extent relaxed. They are much more stringent than at Cambridge, and might be found unduly oppressive if strictly insisted on. That is to say, if the Commissioners are of opinion that the pro- fessors are not to do much in the way of teaching, then I think that some of those restrictions which were enacted about 20 3'ears ago are too stringent ; otherwise I should not propose to relax them ex- cepting in certain minor points with respect to which I think they are unduly oppressive. Passing to a slightly different subject, though connected with what I have just said, I would suggest that in the creation of new professorships, or in altering the statutes of the existing professorships, it might be wise in some cases not to insist on any large number of lectures or any large amount of residence. There are many sub- jects (I may mention for instance the chair of poetry, the chair of fine arts, the chair of classical archasologjq if such a chair should be created) which might be most usefully and properly re])resented in the univer- sity by occasional lectures, but which do not require a teacher constantly resident. And many men might *be glad to accept a professorship of this kind who would not consent to live permanently in Oxford or to undertake constant and detailed teaching. For a pro- fessorship of this kind it would not be necessary to supply an endowment of more than say, from 200/. to 500/. a year, according to the duties and amount of residence required. 1550. I should like to ask as to the precise function of the two professors that you have mentioned ; do they practically contribute anything to the education of the university ? — They give lectures from time to time which are very useful and very stimulating. I daresay that Lord Selborne will recollect Keble’s lectures. 1551. If they had been given in English they w ould have been most interesting and useful? — Precisely so. Mr. Matthew Arnold’s were most interesting, and I think they added to the intellectual life of the university; they gave us something to talk about and discuss beyond the mere humdrum business and gossip of the colleges. 1552. (Prof. Smith.) They interested, did they not, a number of the passmen ? — Yes, and that is just what Professor liuskin’s lectures do in a different way. 1553. About how many lectures are given on each of those subjects? — The professor of poetry is only called upon to lecture once a term. I think he might perhaps be called upon to lecture twice a term. The professor of fine arts sometimes lectures three times a week, and sometimes once a week, and 1 think that his lectures have a beneficial influence upon the university. 1554. (Mr. Bernard.) The thing above all others wanted in Oxford amongst the undergraduates is an interest in matters of literature or science, is it not ? — Quite so ; they are so likely to be more interested in athletic sports, and boating, a.ul personal gossip, that anything that will carry them outside of them- selves and their ordinary avocations is exceedingly desirable. 1555. Lectures which tend to stimulate that inte- rest, although they have no specific bearing upon the subjects examined upon in the schools, may be of definite and substantial value to the university ? — I think so. OXFORD. Rev. T. Fowler, M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. M 4 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. ')6 OXFORD. Rev. T. Fowler, M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. 1556. {Chairman.') And you think it is desirable tliat they sliould be more frequent? — I think it is desirable that there should be ratber more of" them. A professor of classical archteology and art would be of great service to us, but I should not care to make him reside here and lecture three times a week. Jt would be much better that he should give us a course of three or four lectures a term, which could be more carefully prepared. 1557. Would the object of awakening that kind of interest be equally well answered by occasional lectures ? — Yes. 1558. From persons who are not regular j)rofessors ? — I think that the title of professor is a title which men value, particularly if they are not resident in the university. I would extend the system, and I would require a professor of this kind to give from six to ten lectures a year. 15.59. It would not be necessary to pay him a very high stipend ? — No, I think not. I mention this subject rather in the way of economy. It would be a waste of money to give a man 800/. or 1,000/. a year for what would be much better done by his coming down occasionally. If 1 may venture to say so, I think that a mistake has been made in one or two instances lately by attaching conditions of residence, and of frequent lecturing to one or two of the pro- fessorships which have been recently created. There are many men, I believe, of considerable distinction, who would be glad to give occasional lectures for a conqjaratively small stipend. 1560. That would apply to subjects wbich do not enter into the regular university course ? — Yes. 1561. But it would not apply to those which do so ? — No. I think in many subjects which do not enter into the general system of the education of the* university, it would be desirable to have small endowed professorships without the condition of residence, and with not very stringent requirements as to lectures. 1562. By stringent I presume you mean onerous? — Yes; a professor of one of these sulqects might be required to lecture two or three times a term only. By these means I think the university might econo- nomically endow some useful chairs. 1563. Will you proceed with the next point which you have to present to the Commission ? — I now pass to a somewhat different point, which bears, however, on the general drift of my examination. I wish to draw (he attention of the Commission to the extreme desirability of providing more of a career than exists at present for the teachers in Oxford. I think that great loss is occasioned to the university by this want. During my residence I have constantly known many of the best men go off to other employments, especially to schools. Although I do not think that the uni- versities can compete with the bar, still I think we ought to be able to compete with the schools. I do think when we have a man here of considerable promise, and who might as time goes on advance his subject and gain for us some reputation in Europe, it is not desirable that he should be carried off to school work. I could mention half a dozen cases of that kind, and the men who do remain here and have worked hard and well during the best years of their lives are often stranded in a way which I believe has no parallel in any other profession. I might almost say that, except accidentally, (here is no career whatever for a teacher in Oxford. We provide exceedingly well for quite young men, but we do not provide for men in middle life or give our best men any encouragement to stay here. 1564. {Prof. Smith.) You would say that his pro- fession is a good one at the beginning, but a bad one at the close? — Yes; in fact it is not a profession at (he close at all. 1565. {Chairmun.) I presume that the schools to which the men are attracted olfer prizes of greater magnitude than could possibly be offered in Oxford: I mean the headshijts of large schools ? — I think if you had even a small number of tolerably well endowed professorships it would tempt men to stay if there were a readership half wav, which would give a man sufficient subsistence in middle life. I think that if men had an opportunity of making 800/. or 900/. a year as readers they would prefer that in Oxford fo 1,500/. a year in schools. 1566. {Mr. Bernard.) You are probably aware that the same complaint exists with regard to the assistant masters in schools ? — Yes, no doubt, but still an assistant master of a school is able to marry and keep a boarding-house, and is able to save money, whereas a married teacher in Oxford is no(. This consideration is, I think, an additional argument for organising the teaching on a university rather than on a collegiate basis. 1567. {Chairman.) Before passing from that sub- ject, boarding-houses in schools having been sug- gested, I would ask you what there would be to prevent the establishment of boarding-houses in Oxford for undergraduates if it were profitable ? — I am inclined myself to think that it is much better to leave the unattached students in lodgings. I think we look too much after the men here. I would certainly have stringent rules of discipline, which I would apply to the men through the proctors, but I do not think it is desirable to carry on anything like school supervision. 1568. My (jnestion did not mean wliether it was desirable, but whether it was not open at present to any one who thought it worth while to have a board- ing-house ? — Yes, it would be quite open to any master of arts, but it would not be likely to answer, because very few men come as unattached students except those who are prevented by poverty from going into colleges. To return to what I was saying, the last consideration is an additional argument for organising the teaching on a university rather than on a. collegiate basis. Men would be likely to rise in the one case by natural selection and the force of ability and industry, and in the other by mere seni- ority. It is next to impossible where a college selects the men to pass over a senior and select a junior. I believe that the teachers would become effete much sooner in collegiate than in university positions, for in a college there would not be nearly the same amount of stimulus to study and efficient teaching either in the way of criticism or in the (vay of graduated pro- motion that there would be in the university at large. I mean that the same amount of criticism would not be brought to bear upon their lectures. Nor would there be a sort of hierarchy of teachers and lecturers exciting a man’s ambition to rise from one step to the other. I may mention that if a man obtain a tutorship, say, at the age of 23 or 24, practically speaking, he has little else to look forward to; there is not at present a sufficient number of professorships or reader- ships to make it an appreciable chance that he will succeed in obtaining one of them ; and if he stays in Oxford the probability is that he will go on as a tutor for the rest of the time that he remains. We find, practically, that at the age of 40 or 45 men throw np a tutorship and get tired of their work. If there were, as I propose, a graduated scale of teachers beginning with the college tutor and going on to the university reader, and culminating in the university {)rofessor, there would be an object for a man’s ambition, and an incitement to his exertions. I will now try to sum up briefly (he reasons for my proposals. I advocate the transference of the more advanced teaching from the colleges to the university, on the grounds that, (1) it would tend to create a more learned class of teachers ; (2) it would remedy certain gross defects in our present system of educa- tion ; (3j it would establish a hierarchy of teachers, the places in which would be determined by literary or educational merit, and would consequently provide, what is now so much needed, a career for men who devote themselves lo the work of study and teaching. I wish in conclusion, to express an opinion that unless something is done, either in the way of organ- ising university teaching or of amalgamating the col- legiate foundations, some of the smaller colleges will in process of time perish of inanition, or at least carry UNIVEESITY OF OXFOllD COJl MISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 97 on a lingering and useless existence, and that thus a large amount of money, otherwise available for educa- tional purposes, will he lost to the nation. 1561). Have any of them diminished very much in number of late years ? — No, I think not; hut 1 think a rcl'orm which took the direction of simply liberating the funds of the colleges for educational purposes within their own walls would result in a small number of colleges absorbing all the undergraduates, and some of the smaller colleges being stranded. 1570. I supiyose that at all times some of the colleges will be below the mark and others above ?— Yes, but I do not think that this circumstance depends upon the educational efllciency of the colleges, but upon the set of fashion more than anything else. That, I think, is nearly all that I have to say upon the subject generally. I should like to say something with regar d to the headshi|)s of some of the smaller colleges as bearing upon the subject of university requirements. I think it is very impor tant that the question of head- ships, which Avas entirely ignored by the Commissions of 1850 and 1851, should bo carefully cottsidered by this Commission. I believe that the revenue of the heads of colleges in Oxford amounts to something between 30,000/. arrd 35,000/. a year, and I think it most important that some inquiry should be insti- tuted into their duties, their mode of appointment, and the extent to Avhich their offices subserve the pur- poses of discipline, etlucation, and learning. I believe that the functions of the head are most important in a large college, but in a small college the demands on his time amount alnrost to nothing. I would there- fore suggest that unless the smaller colleges are amaffiamaied it would be desirable to consider the O question Avhether the headship might not be tilled by a professor or tutor, so that the amount of money received in virtire of the headship Avould be coiii- pai-atively small, and a large saving would thereby be etfectod to the college and the uiriversity. 1571. You would rerptire that the head of ti college should take an active part in teaching ? — Or that he should be a profe.ssor. I would not require him to gi\ e any very large number of lectures. I tliink that the stipend which he received as a tutor or professor should be subtracted from the value of the headship, or that the stipend of the hefidship should be so modified as to make an allowance for his holding the two offices together. 1.572. {Prof. Hmith.) I would Avish you to consider the great dilference between the tAAm proposals, that of assigning to the head of a small college duties external to the college, sitch as those of a professor.ship, and that of making him take [>art in the active Avork of teaching Avithin the college? — I should myself, in some respects, prefer that he should be a professor, because 1 think it Avould be a more dignified position for him, and that he Avonld be of more service to the university. If you required the head to go through the drudgery of giving pass lectures to the under- graduates in his college, it might unduly loAver his po.sitiori, and would certainly preA'ent him from haA'ing leisure foi‘ his oavu studies. Hut he might be required to take some |)art in the education either of hi.s OAvn college or of the university. I should not like to confine the head.ships to professors of the uiuA'crsity, but to make some more clastic arrangement by Avhich educational functions of some kind or other could be combined with a headship. The witness withdrew. The Reverend Edavin P.vlmeu, M.A., (Corpus Professor of Latin,) examined. 1573. {Chairman.) You expressed your entire agreement Avith the recommendations of the Board of Studies for the School of Literce I [umaniores, Avhich Averc that there should be several additional profe.s- sorships, one in ancient history, tAVO in classical languages, one in classical archmology, Avith some readers for the classical languages, one in ancient history, and tAvo in philosophy. The Hebdomadal Council have recommended not (juite the same number ; that is to say, they have only recommended one additional pi-ofessor in the classical languages, one in ancient history, and one in classical archmology, with some readers. Do you think that the numher which the Ilebdomadal Council has recommended is suffi- cient and necessary ? — Sufficient certainly. Whether it is necessary I am not <]uite prepared to say. If I remember right I said in my official ansAver to your secretary that 1 considered myself to be generally repre- sented Avith fair accuracy by this report. I Avas doubtful myself Avhether the additional professorship in classics Avas really necessary ; I certainly consider the number of professors recommended by the Council sufficient. 1574'. What wovild be the exact function of the third professor of classical languages.^ — That is A'ery doubtful. I AA^as not the author of that recommen- dation ; I only accpiiesced in it. I have doubted myself Avhether the average leaching of the classical languages in the colleges is not so good that one professor might be sufficient to represent Latin, and one to represent Greek ; but it Avas the opinion of most of my colleagues that tAVo were desirable for each language, and I acquiesced in that opinion. I would rather that others than myself pointed out the necessity for it. In fact, it seemed to me less suitable to dispute the necessity for it, because the idea of such a necessity might in part be occasioned by my own deficiency. Being myself one of the two existing classical professors, Avhen it Avas maintained that a third was needed it Avas somewhat invidious for me to dispute the position. 1575. A professorship of classical archreology, and a Q 6223. museum of classical archaeology, are of course distinct things, but Avhat is your conception of the Avork that Avould be done by a professor of classical archaeology ? — Of course that Avork Avouhl depend in a great measiu’C upon his own special line and judgment, but 1 think that he might not only give his pupils a sort of ambulatory lecture in the museum, and teach them hoAV to profit by the objects that Avei'e exiiibiied, but that he might giAm a A'ery considerable amount of teaching in the artistic part of archaeology in a manner Avhich Avould be more instructive to our students, and certaiidy more interesting than the perusal of such books as Miiller’s “ Ancient Art.” I think such teaching Avould be valuable for the illus- tration 'of classical literature both historical and poetical. 1576. Would the idea in your mind comprehend all those subjects Avhich are dealt Avith, for example, in such a book as Dr. Smith’s “ Dictionary of Classical Antiquities ” ? — I should not expect one man to deal with all those subjects. The professor of classical archmology might be, and probably Avould be, better qualified to deal with one part of the subject than another. One man would haA'e a very considerable turn and feeling for art, and he would probably not instruct his class A’cry much in such things as Roman camps. Another might have more to say about ancient political institutions and military institutions, and so on, and less to say about art. We could hardly ex- pect to get a man Avho Avas first rate all round, and Ave need more at this moment a man Avho is versed in ancient art and its monuments, Avhich could be col- lected, at any rate by representation, in a museum, than a man Avho can give us the contents of all the articles in that Dictionary. 1577. Taking a professor to be the repre.sentatiA’e of science or of the faculty, and a reader as the practical teacher and instructor Avho might also be a curator of the museum, or anything of the kind, does it seem to you that classical archmology is more lit to be ascribed to a professor than to a reader ? — I think so. I think we might hope to get, and might N OXFORD. Itev. T. Fowler, M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. Rev. E. Palmer, M.A. 98 UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. E. Palmer, M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. often get, a man of very considerable attainments who would accept the position of a professor, but would perhaps not accept the position of a reader. 1578. {Prof. Smith.) He might have the title of a professor, if he were a very distinguished man, but his fees and emoluments need not be very great. That might be a possible arrangement, might it not ? — Quite possible. 1579. {Mr. Bernard.) Perhaps you have had occa- sion to know that to a person of this description the title of professor has a distinct value ? — Most of us know this. I have not in my mind at this moment any particular person who might be thought qualified to take the position and who would accept it with the title of professor but not of reader. 1580. {Chairman.) There is no doubt that suppos- ing there were a professor of the kind suggested by the Council, namely, one appointed for life, and not necessarily a permanent professorship, that considera- tion might have a more legitimate influence than if it were a permanent professorship ? — Yes ; but I should wish to take this opportunity of expressing my em- phatic assent to one suggestion made by the Council in, I think, the latter part of its report, namely, that in one sense all our professorships should be professor- ships for life; that is to say, that it should not be incumbent on the university, or on the persons in whom the appointment might be vested, to fill up any one of our professorships if there was not really a desirable person forthcoming for the vacant chair ; and 1 feel that this principle would apply eminently to such a professorship as the professorship of clas- sical archaeology. 1581. Would it not be easier to give effect to the principle which you advocate in that respect if we had not a professorship which according to the terms of this foundation was permanent? — It might seem easier; but I think on the other hand that the existence of a chair would have a tendency to breed candidates. Persons would qualify themselves if there was a chair endowed which they might hope to hold in case they were really qualified. They would then seek to qualify themselves and devote themselves to that study. If you had, as some persons have suggested, 40 professorships, or whatever the number might be, in the university, which were to be given for life according to the discretion of a board of electors at the time at which they became vacant to persons qualified to teach in any subject with which the univer- sity was concerned, then I think there would not be the same assurance in the minds of students, that the university at any one time would fill up any par- ticular chair. If you founded a chair of archaeology, for example, then, I think, persons who had a turn for that particular branch of knowledge would be inclined to devote tbemselves to it under tbe hope that when it became vacant they might be thought worthy of the appointment. If you had no such chair and it was therefore absolutely uncertain whether on the death or resignation of the professor of archaeology another professor of archaeology would be appointed, or a professor of Sanskrit, or of anything else, there would not be the same definite prospect before them. 1582. With respect to the title, would there not be a little risk, if you gave the title honoris causa only with a lower salary, of discontent growing up at the salary, and of there being a pressure to put it upon a scale adequate to the dignity of a professor ? — Cer- tainly ; but the subject of professorial salaries is one about which nothing has been determined, and on which I think only conjectural suggestions have been made in the university, and on which there is a great difference of opinion here. I should certainly myself not recommend the establishment of any chair without what I thought a reasonable salary ; by a reasonable salary, however, I should mean something lower than the salary which is thought necessary by some other persons. 158.8. {Dr. Bellamy.) You would wish every pro- fessor, w'ould you not, to be capable of residing in Oxford? — Yes. I would say roughly that in my own view 600/. a year is the least which should be given to a professor, and I think that would be really on the average sufficient for a professor. It is a view which I believe is not very generally adopted, and it has not found expression in the report of the Council. 1584. {Prof. Smith.) Might you not with reference to this particular chair of archicology, allow your pro- fessor to be a non-resident, so as to enable you to confer the office upon a man who had acquired ex- perience by being actually employed in some great collection of ancient art ? — I think it would be desirable to have such a man, and leave for non-residence would make it easier ; but when we get a non-resident pro- fessor he is very apt to devote his time and energies to business out of Oxford, and to give us less and less of his time each year. VVe have an eminent example in which that principle has worked well in the present professor of jurisprudence ; but I should be ratber jealous of its extension. 1585. {Chairman.) It has been suggested that there may be a difference in that respect between subjects which are wdthin and those which are outside the university curriculum, and that with regard to those which are outside, courses of lectures not very numerous on subjects which have some interest and attraction would be equally effective if delivered by non-resident professors, and at the same time it would be more easy to get very good men ? — That is no doubt the case in some subjects. With regard to the subject of arcbffiology, I should be inclined to say that if we had a non-resident professor of archmology it would in my judgment be almost essential that we should have a resident reader, for a very large part of the study of archaeology consists in the study of monuments, and it is precisely by the inspection of the monuments or such a representation of them as we could obtain for our museum here, that a student would be best taught, and for that purpose he would want the guidance of some qualified person. Therefore if we had a non-resident professor of archaeology, I should say that a resident reader was a necessary supplement. 1586. These are reasons, are they not, why a pro- fessor of classical archaeology should be connected with the museum and should be resident ? — They are. 1587. No doubt your attention has been directed to the relations of professorial and collegiate teaching in the university? — Yes. 1588. We have had stated to us by some witnesses opinions tending to this conclusion, that the whole of the higher teacliing in the university should be taken out of the hands of the collegiate and intercollegiate teachers and provided for by university teachers ; what is your opinion on that subject — My opinion is adverse to that which you have just mentioned. I should greatly doubt the advantage, if it were deemed practicable, of destroying the collegiate system. It has worked in many respects exceedingly well up to the present time, and I am decidedly adverse to the notion, which has been suggested in a published letter by one of our professors, of sweeping away all our col- lege staffs and the whole function of college teaching, in favour of a completely organised university body. 1589. What has been suggested to us has been with reference to the higher teaching, practically the honour teaching, as distinct from pass teaching ? — Y'^es. That distinction is made because the more dignified the teachers the less desirous they are to deal with the pass work. I would repeat, however, that in my judgment the preparation of pupils reading for honours has been exceedingly well conducted by college teachers in past times, and that a case has not been made out for its withdrawal from them. 1590. Supposing the collegiate system in other respects to be continued, would or would not the influence of the collegiate teachers upon the members of their colleges be materially diminished if they wez'e restricted to pass teaching only ? — I think that it would be materially diminished ; in fact it would be almost confined to those pupils who read only for a pass. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 99 1591. {Dr. Bellamy.) And their position woulcl be altogether lowered ? — Yes. 1592. {Chairman.) Would it be possible for the university teachers to be brought into that kind of personal relation with the members of the different colleges which would be a substitute for the present position of the tutor ? — It would be difficult ; 1 do not say it would be impossible, but it would involve such a multiplication of university teachers, under what- ever names, as would make the number resorting to each manageable. 1593. We have heard from other witnesses a more modified form of a similar opinion, namely, that the work done by the intercollegiate or combined system of lectui’es had better be transferred and put under the regulation of the university ; have you formed an opinion upon that subject ? — I have not been without thoughts upon that subject, but I am inclined to think that it is not desirable to take it into the control of the university. As far as I can see, it has worked well hitherto in its own way. It has been a natural growth, and I am not inclined myself to recommend interference with it. 1594. Is the organisation of it in your opinion im- perfect to an extent which is important ? — It does not embrace all the colleges, but that is of course a matter which the colleges must settle for themselves. I can- not say that it is complete, because it does not cover all the subjects or take in all the colleges ; but, so far as I know, within its own sphere it is tolerably complete and efficient. 1595. Does it practically result in the selection of the best men which any of the combined colleges can supply to teach the subjects in which they are most proficient ? — I do not know that I can give a positive answer to that question, but my impression from what I have seen and heard is that it does. 1596. There is an opinion, perhaps still more restricted, but in the same direction, so fiir as it goes, that on such subjects as law and modern history, which have been recently introduced into the uni- versity courses, it might be better if they were entirely undertaken by university teacliers and not by college or intercollegiate teachers, have you any opinion upon that j^oint ? — I incline to share that opinion myself ; but there is no doubt that whatever a good teacher even in these subjects exists in a college he is able to exercise greater influence over his pupils in the way of stimulating their industry and keeping them up to the mark than a university officer would be likely to exercise. The thing which has led me to thinle that it might be perhaps advantageously attempted is that the number of colleges which actually furnish efficient teachers in modern history, and still more in law, is comparatively small. Of course those gentlemen will speak for themselves. I do not know whether they would object to having their designation changed. Practically I suppose they might very well do the same work under another name, for they are working at present in combination with an amount of completeness which is not found in the Avorking of the tutors in classical subjects. 1597. Is there not a little risk Avith regard to those subjects, assuming that the university system is better adapted for teaching them, that by degrees the colleges might desire to attract them each to itself for the sake of keeping the whole of the tuition in its own hands ? — It is possible, but the tendency of late years has been rather the other way. 1598. In those subjects the university probably Avould have better means of supplying the best kind of instruction than the colleges — I think it would at this moment. 1599. {Prof. Smith.) Even in those subjects the colleges would probably like to supply some tutorial supervision, would they not, in order to keep an efficient hold over the education of their under- graduates ? — I should think so. 1600. You have expressed a general agi'eement Avith the report of the Hebdomadal Council upon university requirements, and at the same time you have expressed a strong view in favour of the mainte- nance substantially of the existing system of college instruction. I would ask you therefore Avhether you consider the proposal to establish readers in the various branches in any way antagonistic to the system of collegiate instruction, or whether you consider that it might not usefully supplement it ? — The establish- ment of readers, as suggested in the final scheme agreed upon by the Council, is one which does not recommend itself to me. I concurred originally in the vieAV that it was desirable to have a number of readers under the professors in the various branches of study, even in the classical branches, in order to make accessible to all the members of the university fir.st-rate classical instruc- tion. First-rate classical instruction is to be obtained in many colleges, not always in all. I felt the great difficulty of combining university readers Avith the college system. But it seemed to me quite necessary that those readers should be university officers pure and simple. In the final draft of the report the pro- vision which confined those readers to the discharge of university functions Avas eliminated, and conse- quently in the recommendation Avhich now stands in the report I do not agree. That recommendation seems to me to recommend little else than that the university should out of its own funds supple- ment the payment of some of the best college tutors without any material variation of their functions, and that is not to me a satisfactory recommendation. I Avould venture to say, upon the subject of readers generally, that I think it a very perplexed one on account of the difficulty of iwljusting the relations between university and college teaching. It is A'ery difficult to say whether good readers Avould find sufficient clas.ses of hearers if they Avere not college tutors. At the same time if they were college tutors I think we should be paying them tAvice over for the same Avork. 1601. In the opinion of some persons it is very de- sirable that there should be the means of conferring some distinction upon the more eminent college tutors with the vieAV of inducing them to continue their services to the university, and it has been supposed that if the university could ofler to such persons the position and the emoluments of a readership, this object might be attained; I should like to hear what you think of that class of consideration ? — I am not sanguine about the possibility of retaining men of ability here in the Avork of education by any such means. Of course if you cannot pay them so that they may live with tolerable ease and comfort you cannot expect them to shiy ; but I do not think the university either is or ever will be in a position to compete with what I should call the money-getting professions, even including in that category the profession of schoolmaster. I am in- clined to think that a tutor receiving such emolu- ments as he has hitherto received is likely to stay with us if his bent is towards the education of young men rather than of boys, and if he appreciates, as many here do, the longer intervals of freedom tVoni teaching Avhich may giA^e him an opportunity for learning. Some of course may remain because they appreciate the longer holidays they get, but I think that such a class is not the class Avhich it is most im- portant to retain in the university. For my OAvn part, so long as Ave provide reasonable emoluments for our teachers, I rely mainly for our supply of teachers upon the attractions of the pursuit itself, and of the place, and especially of the half year Avhich all get here of leisure for study at their own discretion. 1602. At what amount do you estimate the ordinary emoluments of a college tutor in full AVork avIio holds a fellowship ? — I have not inquired into the emolu- ments of all the fellowships and tutorships in the university. I only speak from a very limited expe- rience. But I should say that taking, as has been just now suggested, fellowships into consideration, I regard a college tutor as getting an income of 600/. a year. 1603. {Chairman^ So that if you added 400/., a.« H 2 OXFORD. Rev. E. Palrf.er,M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. 100 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. E. Palmer, M.A. "6 Oct. 1877. seems to be proposed, for a reader, he then would have 1 , 000 /. ?— Yes. 160F. {Prof. Smith.') Unless the college tutor h;is some means of’ augmenting his emoluments which you have estimated at COO/, a year, I will not say to the extent of 1 , 000 /. a year, but by some considerable addition, do you think that the position is one which, notwithstanding all the collateral advantages which you have enumerated, would be likely to retain the services of the men that we want? — I may be entirely wrong, but T am inclined to think that it would. ICOd. {Dr. Belhmnj.) Of course the chief dis- advantage is that it provides no pension at present, or means of a man being kept after he is unfit for work ? — That is a material disadvantage. 160C. But it would not be remedied by those reader- ships, because even in that case there ds no provision of that sort made, is there ? — Not that I am aware of. 1607. {Mr. Bernard.) 1 daresay you know that at the schools we are told that the assistant masters are liable to be drawn away from them by the attractions of the university? — I do not know that that is so, but still I can easily understand it. 1608. Do you concur or not (I rather understand from what you said that you do not concur) in the jwoposal of the Board of Studies of the Classical School that there should be four readers in classics ? — As the readerships have been defined by the recom- mendations of the Council, certainly not ; else I think the experiment would be worth trying. I should regard such an institution as an experiment. I should like to have it made revocable ; and indeed I think we proposed that they should only hold their ollice for seven years, which would give an opportunity of trying the experiment. The real question I take to be whether they would get sufficient classes. 1609. The original recommendation of the Board of Studies was this: “That readerships shall be “ tenable with college tutorships and lectureships ; “ but that the readers shall not be allowed to take “ such an amount of college work as will interfere “ with the duties of their readerships,” and “ that the “ readers shall receive a stipend of 100 /. a year and “ shall take no fees” ? — 1 beg pardon. I had forgotten the [)recise terms of that recommendation. I did not entirely concur in it, for-I thought it was too vague, it would never be jiossible to define how much college work was compatible with the discharge of the duties of readers. I think that a reader should be a university officer taking no college work, and that time would soon show whether there was a real function for such readers in the university. 1610. {Chairman.) Could they be made available as tutors doing the same duty which a college tutor would do for the unattached students ? — According to 1113 ^ view v. hich T have just indicated they ought to be available for the unattached students only in the same degree as for the other students ; if they are uni- versit}' readers they ought to be equally available for members of any single college as for the unattached students. It might be that in practice they would be used most by unattached students, and in that case no doubt the unattached students would profit specially by them, 1611. But their function would rather be to deal with honour students than with ]iass students ? — That Avas, I believe, the thought of the Board of Studies. 1612. (Mr. Bernard.) I suppose a reader receiving !()0/. a year from the university and not receiving atiy fees, Avould be in an inferior position, as regards emoluments, to a college tutor? — Yes, sometimes. But he iniglit sometimes be a fellow of a college. 161.8. {Earl of Bedesda/e.) IIoav avouIcI freshmen be dealt with under the university system; that is to say, when a youth comes up to a college how is the professorial system to deal with them ? — I am not perhaps, a fair exponent of that idea, because I have not embracetl or advocated it, but still 1 will do my best to answer the question. I suppose it might be said that in every college there would be some person. either the dean or the tutor, Avho would send for the young man and inquire into his educational Avants, and enjoin upon him attendance upon this or that professor or reader. 161I-. If the professorial system is to be something very superior and different to the tutorial system, Avhat is to be done with persons Avho have not the information to begin Avitli that meets that mode of tuition? — It certainly would not meet their Avants if it Avere exclusively of the character that I have sug- gested. But I apprehend that if the plan of merging the colleges in the university Avere adopted it Avould be absolutely necessary to create a class of university pass readers, as we should call them, Avho Avould take in hand the mass of young men w ho are not qualified to be candidates for honours. 1615. {Dr. Bellamy.) So fitr as you know, nobody has proposed to hand over (he passmen to university teaching? — Not absolutely; but I look upon it as a corollary not unlikely to folloAv from the adoption of any Avide and sweeping plan. 1616. {Chairma7i.) As matters noAV stand, do you think sufficient provision is made for the instruction of tlie passmen Avho are unattached ? — No. The uni- versity system has gone in the matter of unattached students, to a very great extent upon the plan of leaving their instruction to the laAvs of supply and demand. It has indicated in rather a niggardly way to unattached students where they might possibly find a supply, but it has left them to demand it. I should certainly desire myself to see something more in the way of an organisation for the teaching of unattached students than has been hitherto attempted. 1617. {Prof. Smith.) Perhaps you are not aAvare that this term tAvo tutors have been for the first time appointed, their duties being limited to the part of the undergraduate course previous to modera- tions. Is that limitation reasonable, in your opinion ? — I should say it is not Avholly unreasonable. At the same time, if I remember rightly, the appointment to Avhich Professor Smith alludes has been made in connexion with a scheme which came before some of us last term. One point which Ave had strongly in vicAv then was the point of economy. I think if Ave had had more funds at our disposal we should perhaps not have been inclined to limit the supply of tuilion Avholly to the men who had not passed mode- rations ; but it AA as desired if possible to produce a scheme Avhich should provide for the most pressing wants of the unattached students without calling upon the university to contribute anything whatever, and at the same time Avithout raising greatly the jAayments of those students. 1618. {Ear! of Bedcsdalc.) Is that not practically the university finding a tutorial system for unattached students? — It is. 1619. Will not a tutorial system be required for freshmen generally connected with the colleges ? — Certainly I think it Avill. 1620. {Chairman.) In fact if you abolish the present tutorial system, you must find another? — Yes. 1621. Is it your opinion that anything could be done in addition to what is noAv done for the passmen generally, not now speaking of unattached students ? — I have not formed any opinion upon that subject. 1622. {Dr. Bellamy.) You do not come much in contact Avith them, do you ? — No. 1623. {Prof. Smith.) Such lectures as you are yourself called upon to give could not be available for passmen, but I sliould like you to tell us whether you think that public lectures in some of the subjects of instruction in the university might not be found very useful for passmen ? — The experience of Glasgow, and, I believe, of Edinburgh, seems to show this to be the case. 1624. In such subjects, for example, as English history ? — Yes, I should think that that would be quite possible. 1625. {Dr. Bellamy.) But do not you think it would be necessary rather to relieve his burden in UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 101 other subjects if you reqtiire more general know- ledge on the part of a passman ? — I did not understand the last ((uestion to refer to the requirement of more knowledge on the part of the passman, but only to the supply of university lectures to them. 1626. {Prnf. Smith.') Is it not a fact that very few professors of the university regard the instruction of the passman as coming within the sphere of their duties ? — T suppose so. 1627. Considering that the passmen are, and must always be, the majority, is not that rather a regrettable circumstance ? — Perhaps it is. I confess that 1 have not given much thought to it, having always ac- quiesced in the view that the passmen required a sort of police supervision, if I may call it so, which could be best, if not only, given within the walls of a college. 1628. ( Chairman?) Take such a subject as that which Professor Smith mentioned, English history, would there be any advantage, do yon think, in making attendance upon elementary lectures in English history requisite for passmen before they take their degree ? — My experience of compelled atten- dance upon lectures is not favourable. We tried it in this university for some years, I think for 10 or 12 years, after the legislation of 18.oO, but it was abandoned by common consent. If it were not supplemented by a •system of examination in the subject of the lectures, a fair success in which was necessary for a certificate of attendance on those lectures, compelled attendance would be generally useless. 1629. Might there not be some subjects in which lectures were required, it may be of a popular and elementary kind, and on which an undergi'aduate would be expected to satisfy the examiner that he had acquired some knowledge. Take such a subject as English history for example, would there be any advantage in that ? — I think it might be beneficial to some classes of students. 1630. {Prof. Smith.) The question that 1 asked did not point to compulsion, but on looking at the subjects of the final pass examination I find that there are many of them Avhich seem well adapted for public Icctui'es to the class of students who take up those subjects. It has often struck me, and I should like to know what yon think of the proposal that the university should supply, for the especial benefit of the passmen, lectures that miglit tend to interest them more in the subjects which they study than the college lecture can possibly do, with its necessai’y accompani- ments of compulsion and adaptation to the require- ments of the least intelligent students ? — I think it might very likely be useful. 1631. {Chairman.) Do yon think they Avould go if there were no compulsion ?— That is a question which it is difficult to answer. 1632. {3Ir. Bernard.) As regards the classical teaching of candidates for honours, is it mainly what we may call collegiate teaching proper or intercol- legiate teaching. By collegiate teaching proper, I mean teaching by a tutor of the pupils of his own college ? — At the present time it is very largely intercollegiate teaching. 1633. Does it tend to become more and more so? — I think it tends to become more and more so. Col- lege unions, so to say, are increasing in size ; more colleges are coming in. 1634. That is to say, the colleges desire that their men should go to the lectures of persons Avho are acquiring a reputation for considerable eminence ?-— Yes, that I suppose is often the case ; but different motives, I think, have led to such combinations, and to their extension. Sometimes one college lias taken into union another from Avhich it could gain little, but to which it thought it might give something. 1635. It might be expected and would usually be the case that in four or five colleges, for instance, taken in the aggregate, there is an abler man than could be found in each of the colleges separately ? — Ceriainly. 1636. ( Earl of liedcsdalc.) Is not it a part of what you might call the economy of instruction that there ai'e a certain number of men in two or three colleges who may form together a very good class, whereas if they were merely confined to. one college, they Avould bn almost too small a number to be treated in the same manner? — Yes, that is certainly to be expected. 1637. {Mr. Bernard.) It would appeal’, then, that strictly collegiate teaching, even as regards classics, is diminishing in the university ? — Yes, exclusively collegiate teaching is diminishing. Perhaps I may be allowed to say uj)on this subject that it is distinctly my impression that there is lo.ss as well as gain in the intercollegiate system. As a matter of fact the surveillance over the study of the men is mure lax the moment two or three colleges are combined. A New College tutor, for instance, does not really hold the same tight rein over his Balliol hearers, or a Balliol tutor over his New College hearers, as either does over the hearers from his own college. 1638. The advantages, then, of strictlj" collegiate teaching are, you think, gradually being lost to some extent by the substitution of intercollegiate teaching in classes ? — Yes, to a certain extent. 1639. Do you think that private tuition in classics is becoming less and less ? — I have myself very little means of forming an opinion. 1 suppose that it is becoming less, because I see that almost all the best men are now employed in college or university work, and therefore they cannot take private pupils, and moreover the custom has very largely increased with- in the last few years of college tutors, and even pro- fessors, seeing exercises, as they call it, in their apartments, i.e., making their pupils bring and read to them written answers to questions, — a practice which u.sed to be specially in vogue with private tutors. 1640. We have heard something from some quarters to this effect, that professors are liable to meet with some embarrassment, and to be under some disad- A'antage, from Avhat Ave may call the competition of collegiate or intercollegiate lecturers, Avho liaAm the power to compel the attendance of men at their oavu courses. May I ask whether you have been sensible of that embarrassment or inconvenience at all ? — I have not been sensible of any embarrassment or inconveni- ence from it. No doubt, to illustrate from my own case, I had larger classes when I Avas tutor of Balliol and New College combined. The alliance between those tAvo colleges Avas contracted some years before I ceased to be tutor at Balliol, and I had larger classes from those tAvo colleges, than I haAm usually had as a professor. Those tAvo colleges, like many other colleges, provide so Avell upon the Avhole for their OAvn men, that it is not natural for them to go aAvay to a professor Avho lectures in a third place. I would remark that even in this small toAvn a good deal of tim’e is Avasted in going from college to college, and that is one of the disadvantages of the inter- collegiate system. A man comes in late for one lecture or another, and consequently if he already has to divide his attendance betAveen Balliol and new College, it Avould be inconvenient to go to Corpus into the bargain. 1641. Are there any arrangements made between the professors and the collegiate or intercollegiate lecturers as regards classics for meeting the convenience of students in that respect ; you are aware, perhaps, that such arrangements are made, for example, in the Modern tiistory School? — Yes, I am aware that arrangements are made in the INlodcrn History School, but I believe no such arrangements have been made in the Classical School. The difference probably arises from the fact that the modern history teaching CA^en in the colleges, or under the intercollegiate system, is in very levA'^ hands, so that very few persons have to meet and settle the lectures; but it Avonld be extremely difficult for a body of 60 or 80 teachers to arrange their hours and subjects so as to avoid clashing. 1642. I suppose that the teaching of candidates for honours in classics is gradually becoming confined to somewhat fewer hands by the operation of the N 3 OXFORD. Rev. E. Palmer, M. A 26 Oct. 1877. 102 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION.’ — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. E. Palmer, M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. intercollegiate system ? — I do not think that is very much the case. I often see in the lists of intercol- legiate lectures three or four gentlemen in one combi- nation lecturing on the same matter. I do not profess to understand exactly how this works, but so it seems to be. 164'3. However, you have not yourself felt much inconvenience from the want of such arrangement, or from what has been called the competition of college teaching ? — I beg pardon. The word inconvenience may perhaps have been a stumbling block to me. I do not doubt for a moment that if the collegiate system were abandoned, I, and every other professor, should get larger classes, because vve should then be in a strictly open competition with all the other teachers in the field : but I have not found it inter- fere with my chance of getting tolerable classes. 1644. {Chairman.') Supposing you take any given subject, is not the difference this, that those who now come to your lecture are attracted by the subject and its relation to their own studies, whereas they would be obliged by their colleges to go to the collegiate or intercollegiate lecture ? — I am not sure that this is the case. 1 think that neither an intercollegiate lecturer nor a professor would get a class if his subject did not commend itself to the undergraduates as likely to be useful for them in the schools. Undergraduates are allowed in these days in the colleges and under the intercollegiate system a good deal of choice in the matter. Sometimes they are obliged to selecta certain number of lectures, but they have almost always free communication with their tutors before they are abso- lutely allotted to this or that lecture. 1645. But the lectures of the professor would have a less distinct relation, would they not, to the work of the schools ? — should hardly think so. If the professor attempts to ignore the schools, the con- sequence is that his class is nil ; neither will the students come of their own accord, nor will the tutors be likely to advise them to come. 1646. To take the case of lectures given upon a particular author, supposing they were lectures upon Plautus, would they be less attractive than lectures upon Sophocles or Euripides ? — Yes. I can illustrate that by my own experience. I have repeatedly lectured upon Plautus for several reasons. One reason was, that it was but little studied or taught in the university. I have had lectures in Plautus of 12 or 15. I have also had lectures of 5 or 6, or even of 3. This term I am lecturing upon Tacitus, a book which is frequently offered in the schools, and consequently I have between 30 and 40 hearers. If I chose to lecture upon Virgil I could always command a class. The numbers of the class depend on the use of an author in the examinations. If a pi'ofessor selects an author that is not taken up in the schools by m’any under- graduates, he will get very few hearers, and it is just the same with subjects. 1647. All that seems to suggest that one reason why a professor attracts fewer students is that in the proper discharge of his duty he may be actuated in the choice of his subjects by considerations which col- legiate and intercollegiate lecturers are not actuated by ? — He may be so actuated, but on the whole I think he will regard the wants of the undergraduates, for so long as he is required by the university to lecture 30 or 40 times in the year it would be toolish for him to lecture to bare walls. He will therefore naturally select books and subjects which bear upon the work of the majority or a large portion of the honour students. 1648. {Mr. Bernard.) A tutor when consulted by an undergraduate, as you describe, directs him to attend a particular lecture, does he not, of a tutor of his own college or a tutor of some other college with which his own is in combination. I suppose he directs him also sometimes to attend the lectures of a pro- fessor, does he not ? — Certainly. I am continually made aware that men come to my own lectures by the suggestion of their tutors. 1649. {Chairman.) With regard to combinations, supposing there are three or four colleges which combine together, would it generally happen that every college contributes a teacher in some subject or not ? — I should think that rule would be universal, that is to say, that every college would put some teachers on the list, and I should think that most of those teachers would get hearers from the other colleges in that combination, but the numbers would fluctuate very much at different times. At one time a large number of Balliol men might go to New College, and a small number of New College men to Balliol, and at another time the reverse. 1650. May it be assumed that, whether they are the very best men or not that the agregate could have furnished, all the teachers under that system are men of proved eminence in their different lines ? — I could hardly venture to make so bold an assumption, because all college tutors are teachers under that system, and they are not always men of proved eminence. The system means little more than that the tutors in Balliol and New College, we will say agree between themselves what lectures each of them will give, and sometimes, as I have already said, duplicate lectures are given on particular subjects. They all give lectures in the same term, and it can hardly be expected that they shall all be men of equal eminence. 1651. Then all the tutors of the colleges which are parties to the combination give lectures under the combination system? — Yes. 1652. But those probably are best attended who have the greatest reputation ? — Yes, that would be no doubt the case. The witness withdrew. H. W. Chandler, Esq»f M.A. Henry W. Chandler, Esq., M.A. (Waynfletc Professor of Moral and Metapliysical Philosophy), examined. 1653. {Chairman^ You were dissentient from the views which appear to have been recommended by others, and to a certain extent adopted by the Hebdo- madal Council, as to the increase of the professorial staff, and particularly in the subject of philosophy. You thought it unnecessary to have any additional teaching provided by the university in that subject ? — That was that on a certain supposition it was un- necessary. 1654. What was that supposition ? — As far as I remember, the supposition was that the university was mainly to examine people. On one supposition I stated that there was not a sufficient number, so far as I remember my letter. 1655. Do I understand you as meaning that in your view the principal function of the university is exami- nation — 1 should not like to say that, but I was puzzled by the questions that were sent to me, and I could not answer them till I knew what the university w'as to be ; that was my difficulty. 1656. At present I suppose the university aims at teaching as well as examination, does it not ? — No doubt it aims at it. 1657. And provides for it partly by the collegiate system, and partly by the professorial ? — No doubt. 1658. In your subject of philosophy is the collegiate system efficient ? — So far as I know by results, I should say yes. 1659. All the collegiate and intercollegiate tutors deal with that subject ? — I think so. 1660. In a manner which is satisfactory to you ? — Yes ; so far as I know, I should say it was satisfactory. 1661. In your opinion it is desirable that the work of collegiate teaching in the university should continue to be substantially what it now is ? — I think so. 1662. You do not think it would be an improve- ment to take the higher teaching, that is, the teaching of the honour classes, out of the hands of the colleges, and to provide for it by a university staff? — No, I think not. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION t — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 103 1663. You are not much influenced by arguments from foreign universities ? — Not in the least ; I see no parallelism between the two institutions. 1664. They have no colleges ? — As far as I know, the German universities have no colleges ; but of course there are plenty of universities that have colleges, or had them. Louvairr, for instance, had 40 colleges, and some Spanisli universities have had many. 1665. Has Louvain at the present time? — I do not know. 1666. {31 r. Bernard.) Paris had, had it not? — It had certainly over 40, I think. 1667. ( Chairman.) But the German universities, to which reference is generally made, have not ? — I do not think so. 1668. And they have no honour men ; there is not a distinction between class men and pass men ? — I think not. 1669. And they have not combined examinations like ours ? — I think not ; there is nothing about it in the German Academical Annual. 1670. The Hebdomadal Council have recommended two Readers in Philosophy in addition to your chair ? what function do you understand that they would have to discharge ? — I really cannot answer that question. 1671. Bo you think them neces.sary ? — Not in the least ; I think myself unnecessary. 1672. May I inquire what classes you have — Some months ago I was written to by a tutor to say that he and some others thought it was a very proper thing that I should lecture upon a particular book. It was all the same to me, and I said I would put the book on, to use our phrase. I put it on, and this morning I have been lecturing upon it for the second time. I counted the men, and there were 12 men. 1673. {Prof. Smith.) What was the book ? — The “ Be Anima.” 1674. {Dr. Bellamy.) It was not a waste of time if there were 12 intelligent men there? — I do not say it was. 1675. {Prof. Smith.) Bo you suppose that, besides yourself, there are in the university many persons capable of giving a lecture upon the “ Be Anima ” which would carry all the authority that a lecture on such a subject ought to carry ?- — I should not like to answer that question ; but supposing there were not, I think all that might prove is that it is an unfit book to be taken into the schools. 1676. {Chairman.) Bo you think it is not desirable that anything beyond what is fit to be taken into the schools should be the subject of professors’ lectures ? — For undergraduates, certainly; it takes them off their proper work, wastes their time, and makes them think that they know subjects when they do not. 1677. How many professors of philosophy are there at present ? — Three including Professor Eaton in Moral Philosophy, and myself jn Moral and Meta- physical Philosophy. 1678. Political economy is not learnt under the head of philosophy, is it ? — I do not know ; I had forgotten that. 1679. And you think no addition is desirable to those chairs ? — Not if the collegiate system is kept as it is. 1680. You have expressed a strong opinion as to the probable effect of the multiplication of professors in the same subjects ; do you think that it would tend to the better organisation and mutual arrangement of teaching ? — I cannot say that I do. 1681. Bo you think that it would have the opposite tendency? — I think it is extremely probable. 1682. Bo you think that men fit to promote the advancement of knowledge by research would be likely to be multiplied if the professorships were multiplied ? — No. 1683. {Prof. Smith.) May I ask you to give your grounds for that opinion ? — If you look to all our greatest men I do not think they have ever been the effect of endowment. Selden, for instance, one of the most learned of our men, Gibbon, and Hume ; in fact you may run over the whole list of our great writers ; with comparatively few exceptions they have not been professors, so far as I know, except titular professors — Br. Johnson, for instance. 1684. {Chairman.) Newton was a professor, Avas he not, at Cambridge 1 — No doubt, but he was great in spite of his endowment. 1685. {Prof. Smith.) Then I gather from what you have said that you consider that the function of a professor, so far as it is a teaching one, ought to have reference to men before they have passed the university examination and have taken their degree ? — Yes, supposing professors to exist. 1686. You think that without detriment to the .system of the university, so far as the education of undergraduates is concerned, the professors might generally disappear, I do not say in all subjects, but in some ? — Not in all subjects clearly, but in my own, for instance, certainly. 1687. Bo you not think it desirable that even the undergraduates should have the opportunity of hear- ing a man who has devoted his whole life to the study of a subject, instead of being necessarily confined to the lectures of comparatively young men who have devoted only a short time to it ? — I think that is un- doubtedly an advantage ; there is no question of. it. 1688. Can that advantage be secured except by the establishment or the maintenance of places such as your own ? — I think it could be secured ; I do not think that that is the only way of solving the problem. For instance, as far as I remember, at Leyden they paid learned people to live there to create a sort of learned atmosphere, and I have often thought it would be a good thing to do the same in Oxford ; to get people who really were clever and who had done work, not who were going to do it, to live here for a time ; not to make them do anything, but they would talk and would leaven the place. At Leyden it answered admirably. They paid Scaliger to do nothing at all except to adorn the place. That is one way, and I think there are other ways. 1689. {Mr. Bernard.) Would not the learned per- son be more useful there if he were required to use some means of imparting his knowledge to others than if he were not so required ? — I do not think it necessarily follows. 1690. Bo you think he would not be more useful ? — I think he might not be more useful. 1691. You think there is no advantage in requiring him to impart his knowledge in some way to others ? — No necessary advantage. I mean that I could not answer the question and say that there might be an advantage in this particular case or that particular case ; but, speaking generally, I think it unnecessary. I think such a man would be sure to give his infor- mation to others ; he could not keep it to himself. 1692. In the delivery of lectures I understand you to say you think that he would not be likely to be useful, that is to say, that it would not be useful that he should deliver lectures ? — I do not think that professorial lectures are of much use myself. 1693. All that could be expected from a learned person would be that he should be there and converse with other learned persons or unlearned persons ? — Yes. 1694. {Prof. Smith.) At one time you took a con- siderable number of private pupils, did you not ? — A very large number. 1695. Comparing your usefulness then Avith your usefulness noAv Avhat Avould you say ? — I should say that now I am perfectly useless and that then I was very useful indeed. When a man pays you 10/. it gives him an interest in you, and he sticks to you like a leech ; he Avill never cut his lectures by any chance. That was my experience, and if he is the last man on he wiU stop till you drive him away. But what a man does not pay for as a rule he does not value. Although I prepare myself more carefully and take more pains, I can rarely get a man now who will come up into my rooms afterwards and work Avith me for nothing. I sometimes do it, but it is comparatively N 4 OXFORD. H. W. Chandler,Esq., M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. 104 UNIvaoUSITY OP OXPOKD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. H. W. Chandler, Esq., M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. G, Smith, Esq., M.A. rare. All interest in work seems to have been killed in this place. 1696. {Chairman.') Would a rented}' be applied to that evil if you were permitted to charge a fee ? — I am permitted to charge. 1697. {Prof. Smith.) Do you do so 7 — Never. I think I am very well paid as it is. 1698. {Chairman.) However, your opinion seems to be that a professor vyho is capable of being useful will be more so if he is paid not by salary but by fees charged to the students ? — 1 should not like to say yes to that. But certainly I think that if you made the men pay they would come under those circum- stances, that is to say. they would attend to the end of a course. I think that is extremely probable. 1699. {Mr. Pcrnard.) When you said just now that all interest in work seemed to be killed in this place, did you mean that generally, or only that the interest of those who attended you to whom they paid nothing was small ? — Very small, and it seems to have been decreasing. 1700. Should you extend that observation further than that? — No. I would not extend it further because I do not know further. 1701. {I)r. Bellamy.) Are you still acting as a college tutor ? — No, I lecture to a small number as a college lecturer, but only three hours in a week. 1702. (il/r. Bernard.) However, I collect ‘that in your opinion a college tutor would not be very much more useful than a professor, if the men did not feel that they were paying the college tutor for his assist- ance ? — There is this additional thing that he can force them to come. 170.8. But can he force them to attend to him ? — Yes, he can force them to attend; lie can enforce attendance and attention. 1704. {Chairman.) Are the subjects of your chair outside the university course or inicli as coincide with it? — The words ot my professorship cover anything. I can put into moral and metaphysical philosophy almost what 1 like. 1 he expression is as vas^uc as it can be. 1705. Are those now very important subjects in the final school ? — Yes, they are ; and papers are set upon them in certain books now. 1706. {Prof. Smith.) Brobaldy they are the most important so far as the awarding of honours is con- cerned ? — That I cannot say because I do not know. 1707. You habitually choose subjects for your lectures, do you not, which lie within the limits of the final examination ? — Yes, I try to do it. 1708. Besides what you have already said could you suggest any means of maintaining in the university the studies with which your name is connected, namely, the study of the Aristotelian Philosophy and of Aristotelian Greek ? — I do not see that it is even desirable to do it if a man does not take an interest in it. A man will arise now and then who does take an interest whether he is endowed or whether he is not endowed, but I do not see that it is desirable -to pay a premium for such a person. The witness withdrew. Goldwin Smith, Esq., M.A. (Honorary Fellow of University College), examined. 1709. {Chairman.) We know that you took great interest and a very active part in the former Com- mission, which remodelled to a great extent the university and the colleges some years ago ? — Yes. 1710. And though for some years you have not been resident in this country, you have no doubt followed the working of those changes with the same interest ? — I have been absent from Oxford for 12 years and from England for 10, and although of course I have not at all lost my interest in Oxford, yet I have not followed the working of the former Commission’s measures as those who have been present have. 1711. You probably have followed it with as much interest as was tonsistent with your absence ? — Yes, certainly. 1712. Is it your impression that further changes of importance have now become necessary? — Of course that is an immensely wide question. 1713. I mean with reference to the requirements of the university, the requirements of the profes- soriate, for example ? — There has been an inquiry into that subject recently under the authority of the university, and no doubt the results of that inquiry are much more authentic than anything I could say. If I have any special view upon the subject, it is that the department of English Literature should be rather strengthened in the professoriate. 1714. You are aware that it has been proposed to connect it with the department of Modern History. Are you of opinion that that is the proper way of dealing with it ? — I should say not. 1715. Would you make a separate school of it or connect it with any other school ? — I am not speaking of examinations but of the professoriate. 1716. We have difl’erent subjects grouped under boards of studies, and no doubt that has reference to instruction generally, and not only to the examinations ; it is there that it has been assigned to tlie depart- ment of Modern History. Yjou, I suppose, would rather suggest it independently of any such connexion ? — There is a close connexion between English literature and English History. Indeed English literature can only projjerly be studied historically, but they should have separate chairs. 1717. 'I he Hebdomadal Council has recommended the establishment of an additional Professorship of English Literature in connexion with' that school, if 1 may use the expression. Is one Professor of English Literature enough to satisfy the want which you feel exists ? — I think there should be two. I think that very likely, without, of course, drawing a strict line of demarcation, two professors might find fields, the one a more properly literary field, and the other more philological. 1718. {Prof. Smith.') Taking the philological side, would you change the Anglo-Saxon chair into a Pro- fessorship of English Philology and of the English Language. Do you think that such a change would be possible or desirable? — I do not think I would abolish the special Professorship of Anglo-Saxon. I presume that the intention of the Commission is to form a liberal professoriate, such as would give a free scope in each department for the special aptitudes of the jirofdssors belonging to that dejiartment, and although no doubt if economy were an object the Anglo-Saxon Professorship might be consolidated with the other ; if economy is not a great object I think I would leave it as it is; 1719. {Chairman.) Would you have a Professor of the English Language or of English Philology gene- rally, with subordinate professorships of those par- ticular elements of language which are historically related to it? — 1 think I would have two Professors of English Literature, and let them divide their sub- ject according to their special bents. 1720. Is that the only additional professorship upon which you have a decided opinion ? — It is the only one on which I should venture to offer an opinion. 1721. Have you considered whether it is desirable • that there should be a separate, professor of English History ? — I have not considered the question, but at the first lilush I .should say no. 1722. The School of Modern History has suggested distinct professorships of English History, Foreign History, English Literature, Modern Church History, and Indian History; does that sort of subdivi.sion seem to you suitable for the establishment of distinct professorships ? — If it were possible to avoid those very minute subdivisions, and to have an adequate number of men who would naturally determine from UNrVKllSITY OF O.VFOKU COMMISBION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 105 tlie bent of tlieir previous studies tlieir special subject, r should prefer that. 1723. They might be readers witliout calling them professors ? — Yes. 1721. Some gentlemen who have appeared before the Commissioners have e.vpressed an opinion in favour of substituting the ])rofessorial system of teaching generally, at least for the higher class of students, the honour students, instead of the collegiate system, have you au opinion ui)on that subject ? — 1 should think that there are some subjects which could not be taught so well by professors. Obviously professorial teaching is better adapted to all subjects requiring demonstration and the use of apparatus. I do not see how those can be taught very well except in the lecture rooms of the university. But with regard to classics and mathematics, I should think that the college teaching, if good, w'ould be more effective than the professorial teaching, that is, if by profes- sorial teaching is meant lecturing to large classes. 1725. As to that work which has been already done hitherto in the university by the colleges, assum- ing the college system to be as well organised as pos- sible, you prefer that it should continue? — I should prefer that it should continue. 1726. Had the system of what are called inter- collegiate lectures been established before you had left the university? — One or two attempts had been made in that direction, but the system had not been at all developed before I left Oxford. 1727. Therefore probably you would not feel able to express an opinion iq)on the question whether it had better be left free and elastic, as it is at present, or brought under university control ? — I should not be able to express an opinion upon that question. 1728. {Prof. Smith.) As you were yourself a pro- fessor in this university, I should like to ask yon whether, supposing the college system to be well and completely organised, you ^ould still think that there is an adequate function for professorial teaching in the university, and if so, what that function should be ? — With regard to teaching, I should think, as I have already said, there is a class of subjects, especially physical science, which must be taught to large classes, and that that will naturally fall to the pro- fessors. But I suppose the university has two func- tions, that of education, and that of learning and research, and the second would fall mainly to the j)rofessoriate. That, I suppose, would be the main object of the professoriate, but in some branches its teaching also must be important. 1729. {Chairman.) Besides that particular branch of natural science which has been mentioned, do you think the professoriate is on the whole a better or a worse instrument for teaching such subjects as modern history, which was your own chair, I think ? — I should say that a good college lecturer could teach modern history better than a professor. A professor can do little more than read the chapters of a book. I do not think that public lecturing is useless on history. I should, perhaps, have some difficulty in stating exactly what I think the advan- tage of public lecturing is ; but if a man knows how to lecture, especially if he does not read his lectures but gives them extempore, if he knows how to lecture and to watch his audience, I think that public lecturing is useful as a supplement to more private teaching. But I think that for the mass of men, and for ordinary teaching to a small class, a private teacher must be mainly relied upon. If the professors are eminent men, there is something in being brought into personal contact with eminent men upon their own subject — something, I think, which stimulates and elevates the student. 17.30. During your absence from this country you have seen a good deal of academical institutions in America, and have also taken part in them ? — I am a professor in the Cornell University. 1731. Has that experience led you to observe any- thing which is wanting in this university, and which might with advantage be introduced ? — I should say Q 6223. not. There is a great difference between American and English universities, though perhaps there might be points on which their experience would be useful. My experience there has led me, I think, to value more than I did before the college system. I think we suffer from the want of it in America. 1732. Is it one advantage of the college system that it enables you to come to close quarters with the student more than in a professoriate? — Y’es; and I think that the social element of the college system, the intimate personal relations between tutor and pupil in a good college, are very valuable things which are lost in an American university. 1733. You spoke just now of research, are you of opinion that it would be desirable to multiply profes- sorships or other university offices in order to pro- mote research ? — I think that the best and safest way of promoting research is to have a good number of well-endowed professors, and to leave them time enough for research, I should certainly prefer that to the alternative plan of appointing people specially for research, and giving them an endowment without a fixed duty. 1734. You think it would be better that there should be some active duties required of them, but not such as would be incompatible with research ? — Yes, I think the requirement of active duties is really a security for good elections. 1735. If the money were spent with a view of promoting research, do you see your way to any satisfactory means of securing that research should form a part of the business of the professor ? — I do not. I think, on the contrary, if a man were placed in a sinecure position in early life it would be very liable to prevent his activity in research. 1736. At all events, if a stimulus is given before it is not so certain as a reward ? — No. 1737. {Prof. Smith.) You would not object to a moderate provision for a young man, who had distin- guished himself and wished to make some particular research, such a provision as would maintain him for a short time, say two or three years ? — I see much less objection to encouraging special researches than to endowing men for special research ; and I can imagine that the university might help research a good deal. Take the press, for example, supposing what I always was very anxious the university should do, that it should organise a staff of men to prepare a good English dictionary, which is a thing wanted by the whole English-speaking race ; the university could afford to do that in a liberal way ; it could afford to employ a good number of men in re- searches connected with such a work, and I can imagine other work being undertaken by the univer- sity in other departments, and that T think would be safe and good. As to giving young men endowments to enable them to commence a course of research, surely the fellowship ought to do that to a great extent. I do not know what a young man can want who wishes to undertake researches better than a fellowship. He has a fair income, he has no cares of life, and he has everything around him to assist research. 1737a. {Chairman.) A scheme has been suggested upon which I should like to have your opinion with respect to the principle and tendency of it; suppose a fellowship to be a prize, it is to be given for a short period of time, say for five years, upon a promise to prosecute researches in some branch of knowledge, and then at the end of the five years the man is to come back to the board of electors and satisfy them that he has employed his time well, and it‘ so they may enlarge it for five years more, and so on till he attains a certain age, say the age of 35, after which if he has satisfied them up to that time he is to have it for life; do you think that that would work well ? — It is difficult to say beforehand, but I should think it would require very trustworthy men on this board of electors to make the plan come to anything. 1738. Motives of good nature and an unwillingness to cut oflP a man’s career would have a powerful opera- O OXFORD. G. Smith, E$q., M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. 106 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. G. Smith, Esq., M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. tion, would they not? — I suspect it would lapse into a form. 1739. (il/r. Bernard.) You think, as I understand, that in organising a professoriate, teaching is not the onl}' thing that has to be kept in view? — No ; I take the professoriate in a university like this, a university composed of colleges, to be perhaps more intended for learning and research than for teaching. 174-0. Do you think that it ought not to be confined to what is strictly necessary for the purpose of teach- ing with a view to university examinations ? — I should say certainly not. 1741. Do you think it advisable to establish pro- fessorships or public teacherships in subjects not actually embraced in the examination ? — I should say so. 1 think I would have represented here every branch of science and liberal knowledge, even although it may not form at the time a part of the curriculum of the university ; but 1 should give every facility for students not belonging to the university, but wanting to study a particular subject, to come here and avail themselves of help if they wish to do so. 1742. And that for purposes of that kind chairs might be useful, even although the professors could not count upon having a large attendance of pupils ? — I think so, and they might be useful to the instruc- tion of the place. 1743. That, you think, would promote the object which we are directed to have in view in the Act of Parliament, viz., the advancement of science and of other branches of leanring ?— I think so. 1744. (Chairman.) Is there anything in addition to what you have been so good as to say in answer to our questions, which it occurs to you to suggest to the Commission ? — The only thing that occurs to me is that I think better provision should be made for the Bodleian Library and for its staff. It always seemed to me that the stipend of the Senior Librarian, wdiose office is one of great importance and very laboriou.s, should be increased, and that he should be provided with a house near the library. I am not aware whether the curators find the allowance made them at present adequate for the purchase of books, but if not I think it would be a j)iime object in the employ- ment of any fund that may be at the disposal of the Commission. 1745. What is the present stipend of the Bodleian Librarian? — I have just been told that it is now 1,000/. a year. If so, it has been increased since my time. 1746. Probably you are not prepared to say that that may not be sufficient? — I think 1,000/. with a house would be sufficient. 1747. Is there anything else which you would suggest ? — Perhaps I may be allow'ed to make a sug- gestion with reference to the reorganisation of the professoriate, that I think it important that care should be taken not to stereotype present arrangements too much, but to provide for their being easily adapted from [time to time to the changing requirements of learning and science. 1748. (Mr. Bernard.) Do you think that there is any means by which the fellowships in colleges might be made more directly serviceable to the general object of the advancement of art, science, and learning in the university than they are now ? — I do not think I am prepared with any plan. If the examinations are well conducted, and all subjects are fairly classed, it appears to me that you ought to get the best young men in all the departments, and that they have, as I said before, the best possible opportunities of commencing a course of research. I can hardly imagine a man placed in circumstances more favourable for the commencement of a life of research. 1749. (Chairman.) Some of the witnesses have said that the selection of young men who are to have a fellowship connected with a particular subject of study, say natural science, for example, should be made without examination, and by the professors who teach in that branch ; should you agree in that opinion ? — In certain subjects it would be very desirable for a college, no doubt, to obtain the assistance of professors or special experts. I believe they do so already. My college did so when we examined for a physical science fellowshqj, but I do not see the special object of doing away with the examination. It appears to me that a man who had a great special aptitude for a particular subject would show his aptitude in an examination properly conducted. I do not myself care about exa- minations in themselves. 1 am not bigoted in favour of the system, but I confess I mistrust any system of patronage which is not bound to stand by some definite test. 1750. I think it was suggested by a gentleman whom I have in my mind that assistance or service done as an assistant to any professor might be taken in lieu of examination ? — I have not considered such a plan, and therefore must not speak confidently about it, but I should think it would be difficult to exclude personal feeling, or a suspicion, at all events, of per- sonal feeling — a suspicion that it was practically a nomination by the professor of some one for whom he had a regard. The witness withdrew. Bev. A. H. Sayce, M.A. The Rev. Archibald H. Sayce, M.A. (Deputy Professor of Comparative Philology), examined. 1751. (Chairman.) What is the first subject which you wish to bring before the Commission ? — I should like to speak first about the relation of the professors to the colleges. It seems to me that it would be desirable to bring the colleges into as close a connexion as can be with the university, by annexing fellowships to all professorships, and placing such professor-fellows upon the governing bodies of the colleges. The colleges are apt to forget that they form part of the university, and to regard themselves as having interests somewhat antagonistic to those of university. College teaching, again, is not unfre- quently regarded as antagonistic to the teaching of the university. This tendency is increased by the exist- ence of non-resident fellows whose interests are naturally purely collegiate, and who, as a rule, living away as they do from the university, know but little about the internal work and w'orking of the university as a whole ; it would, therefore, I think, be desirable to attach fellowships to professorships and to place the professors who are supposed to deal with the higher aspects of study upon the governing bodies of the colleges where they would represent uni- versity interests, and at the same time introduce what may be termed an extra-collegiate element. Where the stipend of the professor is provided wholly or in part from the revenues of a college it seems desirable that he should take an active interest in the government, financial management, and teaching of the college. I may mention that tutors who are not fellows are as a matter of course admitted to a share in the educational government and educational ma- nagement of the colleges to which they belong. 1752. (Mr. Bernard.) Is it not the case that pro- fessors now are largely fellows of colleges and entitled to sit in the governing bodies of the colleges ? — A certain number of them are, but not the majority. Indeed the majority have no further connexion with the colleges than ordinary masters of arts. 1753. Are there many cases of professors who have fellowships, but fellowships which do not entitle them to sit in the governing bodies of their respective colleges ? — No, I do not think so ; but in certain cases the stipend of a professor is provided from the revenues of a college, and yet the professor himself is not a member of the governing body of the college, though he draws his income from it. UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 107 1751. It is the case, is it not, that formerly a jealousy or unwillingness existed on the part of colleges in this respect which is very much diminish- ing ? — Yes. I have no doubt that that was the case. But I think that there is still a certain amount of jealousy which might be removed were the pro- fessors brought into more intimate relationship with the colleges. 1755. (^Chairman.) Will you now come to the relations between college and university teaching ? — Here again it seems to me that it would be desirable that the professors should not only draw all or some part of their stipends from the colleges but should also be placed upon the governing bodies of those colleges, because in that way a j)rofessor would know more than is generally the case now about the educational work carried on in the colleges ; while on the other hand the college tutors would also know more about the professorial work and the professorial teaching of the professors by being brought irtto a close and intimate relation with them as brother members of the college. They would have greater facilities for work- ing the professorial lectures, if I may so say, into the educational system of the college. At present the professor has to lecture to either one of two classes of persons. If he lectures to advanced scholars he must make up his mind to lecture to but very few, and to exert little or no influence upon the college teaching and the examinations. If on the other hand he lec- tures to beginners he thereby brings himself into com- petition with the college tutors, and since the college tutors are at present better acquainted than the pro- fessors with the undergraduates, know more about their needs, and are brought into closer relationship with them, it follows naturally that the undergraduates go rather to the tutorial collegiate lectures than to the professorial ones. 1756. Your remedy for those defects would be to strengthen the connexion between the professors and colleges by placing the professors in the position of members of the governing body of some college or other ? — That it seems to me is certainly desirable. 1757. {Prof. Smith.) There would be this advan- tage also in that proposal, would there not, that if the fellowships should be made terminable, and thus a considerable part of the governing bodies of the col- leges should come to consist of very young men, there would be an older and permanent element provided as it were to equilibrate the junior and transitory one ? — Quite so ; I should say it was most desirable. 1758. {Chairman.) The second branch of the paper with which you have been so good as to furnish me relates to the encouragement of oriental studies. Will you give the Commission your views upon that subject ? — At the present moment oriental studies in Oxford can only be described as in a languishing con- dition ; even Hebrew is no longer pursued by the same number of students as formerly. The summer before last, for example, there were but four candi- dates for the Hebrew scholarships, and I speak from personal experience when I say that not one of those candidates was a thoroughly good scholar. I believe that this year the number of candidates was even less. In the Theological School, again, where the candidates sometimes take in Hebrew, and a good knowledge of Hebrew counts largely in the result, the quality of the Hebrew is for the most part very poor. It seems to me that there are certain causes which may be assigned for this languishing state of oriental studies here. One would be that there are but few prizes compared Avith the number of prizes in other subjects, classics for instance, and consequently the ablest men are diverted to subjects in which more prizes are to be obtained, whether those prizes be scholarships or fellowships. Then in the second place the oriental student practically has no certain prospect of a career before him in the university. He cannot look forward with any certainty to his having hereafter a position to fall back upon or in fact any position at all. In the third place, students find it easier to obtain in- struction in oriental languages in London than in Oxford, where there is no one who teaches or can teach them. Then again instruction in oriental sub- jects is not given in schools. The student has to begin his studies in them after he has left school ; and with the distraction of other studies, and the exami- nations, it is of course very difficult for him to become an orientalist after he comes to the university Lastly, as regards those undergraduates who hold Indian Civil Service appointments, of course hitherto they have been but few, and those that are here have to prepare a con- siderable variety of subjects for examination, Avhile they do not intend to remain in Oxford, and con- sequently we cannot look to them as likely to uphold oriental studies in the university. 1759. Do not they follow oriental studies while they are in the university ? — To a certain extent they have to do so for the London examinations. 1760. What are their average numbers ? — It is difficult to say ; 10 years ago there were, I think, some half dozen of them in the university. Since that I believe the number has become fewer. 1761. Do you think that the late changes which have been proposed, I think partly by the India Office, will tend to increase their number ? — I should think so, and at all events hope so. At the same time no Civil Sei’vice probationer would of course remain in Oxford for more than two years or so, however good a scholar he might be, and however great a student he might become, and therefore we should lose his services. 1762. Have you a remedy in your mind for this defect ? — I should suggest the establishment of a few professorships or sub-professorships or readerships in oriental studies. These would be an inducement to a student to pursue his studies while he is still young and vigorous, in the hope that after he had done good work he might eventually find a maintenance for the rest of his life, or at least for the rest of his working life. 1763. At present what are the prizes of that de- scription in existence ? — There is the Professorship of Comparative Philology, the Professorship of Hebrew, the Professorship of Arabic, and the Professorship of Sanskrit. 1764-. The last is a great prize, is it not? — Yes, no doubt. 1765. Then I think there has been a proposal to establish a readership in Telugu and Hindustani ? — Yes, and another oriental professorship; a professor- ship of Chinese has lately been created. 1766. {Prof. Smith.) That, I believe, is only a ]U'ofessorship for life ? — Yes. For my own part, I think that if any fresh professorships or sub-pro- fessorships are created in the studies of which I am speaking they should be only for life. We cannot always ensure a supply of really good scholars to fill such posts. 1767. {Chairman.) Is the provision made now or in the proposals which have been referred to sufficient for every language which it is desirable to teach, Persian included ? — No, Persian is to be provided for by one of the teacherships which it is proposed to create, a teachership of Hindustani and Persian. 1768. {Prof. Smith.) Do you regard that as in any Avay a sufficient provision ? — Not at all. What I should like to see would be a professorship of Zend and Persian, Persian including Old Persian and Pehlevi. It seems to me very desirable that we should have such an important language as Persian represented by the best scholar that we can obtain, who would [’pursue researches in the subject, would be a referee for those who Avish for his assistance, Avould reproduce in his lectures or otherwise the latest results of studies upon the subject, and would in all respects be in Oxford Avhat similar professors are in German universities. 1769. After Hebrew, Arabic, and Sanskrit there is no one of the great oriental languages that is of equal importance for academical purposes as the Persian and Old Persian, is there ? — Perhaps not. But it depends on the meaning we attach to the term “academical.” O 2 OXFORD. Rev. A. H. Sayce, M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. 108 UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. A. H. Sayce, M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. I should very much doubt, however, the expediency of creating oriental fellowships, partly on the ground that the colleges would object to the creation of such fellow- ships, since the fellows would not be directly useful in carrying on the work of the college, and partly because such a fellowship would bring with it few, if any, duties. Moreover, an oriental fellow would not be so likely to be brought into contact with all the members of the university, and would be unable therefore to attract the same number of pupils and studentsas a professor would. 1770. If he held his fellowship subject to the con- dition of giving a certain limited number of lectures to the whole university, would not that objection be modified? — To a certain extent it would. But there would be another difficulty, that, namely, of securing the services of thoroughly trustworthy scholars, be- cause really eminent scholars, those who had done good work, would hardly be likely to be attracted by the offer of a fellowship. 1771. {Dr. Bcllomy.) You think it is not sufficient? — No ; neither in position nor in income would it be sufficient to attract, I should say, such scholars as it seems to me it would be desirable that we should have here. 1772. {Chairman.) I see that you have been so good as to put down in detail the additions which you think desirable. If you have gone through the preli- minary matter, perhaps I may put them to you as they are here. First, you suggest that the chair of Hebrew should remain as at present, a readership in Talmudic Hebrew being added for theological students?— Talmudic Hebrew is important for the study of Old Testament literature, and also to a certain extent of theology as a whole, and it seems, therefore, desirable that there should be a readership in Talmudic Hebrew appointed side by side with the professor of Hebrew. 1773. Is there any reader in Hebrew to assist the professor at present ? — No reader appointed by the university. The present regius professor of Hebrew employs assistants. 1774. I think in one of the letters of his which are printed in this book which the Hebdomadal Council has furnished us with, he suggests that the endowment of his chair is, in his opinion, sufficient to enable the professor to do that, and that it should be done by him and not provided for by separate university funds ; do you agree with that opinion ? — I think there is this objection to it, that it would place the appointment of such assistants entirely in the hands of the professor instead of the appointment resting, as it seems to me desirable it should rest, in the hands of the university or of a hoard appointed by the university. 1775. In what relation would you place the pro- fessor and the reader ; would the reader be under the professor’s direction or under the direction of the board of studies ? — I should wish the reader to he appointed under the direction of the professor, subject to the approval of the boai'd of electors. 1776. The next point which you suggest is that there should be a professorship of Comparative Semitic Philology ; n hat do you exactl}^ mean by that ? — A professorship embracing the Semitic lan- guages as a whole, giving primary importance, as w'ould naturally be the case, to Hebrew. At present the professorship of Hebrew is closely connected with theology, and must remain so ; but besides this con- nexion with theology, Hebrew plays a very important part in Semitic philology, and should be treated from the comparative point of view'. 1777. Then as to the Arabic chair, you recommend that it should be made a chair of Arabic and Syriac ; is Syriac at all provided for at present ? — Practically it is not. The professor of Arabic gives lectures in Syriac, but othenvise it is not e.xpressly provided for by the university. 1778. {Prof. Smith.) Would it be difficult to com- bine Arabic and Syriac in the same chair ? — I should not think so. Generally speaking a Semitic scholar, if he is to be a good scholar, must know at least twm Semitic languages ; and a knowledge of Arabic and Syriac is not unfrequently found united in the same student. 1779. {Chairman.) Would Syriac be considered to include Chaldee ? — Certainly. 1780. Those you recommend as permanent addi- sions to the staff? — Yes, I would. 1781. And, in addition one or two new' life pro- fessors, if such persons could be obtained? — Y''es. The study of a particular language might from time to time become important for various reasons. Thus it may become necessary to provide instruction in a new' Semitic language, and in that case it would be desirable to establish a life professorship until the students of it were sufficiently numerous to ensure a constant supply of good scholars. 1782. You would leave such subjects as Egyptian hieroglyphics and the Cuneiform languages to be dealt with in that manner ? — Certainly. 1783. {Prof. Smith.) Y’’ou do not think that the university would be likely to obtain an Egyptologist on the occasion of every vacancy? — By no means. There might be such a chance, but it w'ould not be safe to depend upon it. Besides, in new studies it is not desirable that an assured position, like a perma- nent professorship, should be held up before the eyes of young students. It would remove the incen- tive to independent research and a rivalry in good work. 1784. {Chairman.) Should you contemplate, with respect to those subjects as to which you recommend those new professorships, that they would be in the main professorships of research or teaching professor- ships ? — I should be unwilling to separate the tw'o. The same professor might be at once a professor of research and a teaching professor, that is to say, suffi- cient leisure might be secured him for original re- search, and at the same time he might be required to reproduce the results of his researches, and those of others in the form of lectures or otherwise. 1785. Take the case of Comparative Semitic Philology, or Arabic, do you think that there would be a sufficient number of students to make the lectures practically useful ?— I think that some students might be collected, and as time w'ent on more would pro- bably be attracted, partly by the eminence of the pro- fessor and partly by the fact that excellence in such studies might eventually lead to a position in the uni- versity itself. 1786. {Mr. Bernard.) Subjects of this kind are never likely to be studied by a very large number of persons in any country, are they ? — No. 1787. But yet it is desirable that they should be kept alive and studied ? — Most certainly. 1788. And you think it desirable that if persons wished to study them they should have the means of doing so at Oxford, and have assistance in doing so, although their numbers may be few ? — Yes. 1789. {Chairman.) Do the oriental students of whom you are speaking now attend the lectures of the Arabic professor ? — I understand that the number of students who attend the lectures in Arabic are very few indeed, and sometimes there have been none. The reason of that is not far to seek ; Arabic, of course, lies a good deal out of the ordinary studies of the university, and there are no prizes in the subject. 1790. {Prof. Smith.) It has a place in the exami- nations for the Indian Civil Service, has it not ? YYs, I believe so. 1791. {3fr. Bernard.) I see, on looking through the class lectures for the present term in the university of Strassburg, that they have courses on these subjects, ancient Egyptian grammar, exercises in the translation of hieroglyphics, two lectures a week ; in interpretation of hieroglyphics and liieratic texts, two lectures a week ; in Arabic three courses of lectures ; in Arabic and Persian manuscripts one course, in Syriac four lectures a week, in the Targum one course, and in San- skrit three courses, and so on. Those courses appear to be delivered more or less by privat-docenten, or by persons not permanently attached to the staff, and pro- A UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 109 bably the number attending tliem would be small ? — Yes, in many cases ; but there is a great number of universities in Germany, and it may happen that there is a professorship of a certain subject in one university which does not exist in another, and as students may move from one university to another, a student in a particular subject in one university has always a pro- spect of eventually obtaining a chair in some other university where such a chair exists. 1792. As the German Government has taken some pains to organise the university of iStrassburg, I sup- pose they think that courses of lectures of this kind arc likely to attract .some students ? — Yes. An expe- riment has lately been tried with regard to the same subjects in London. During the last three years courses of lectures have been given upon Egyptian and Assyrian grammar, and the mode of interpreting the inscriptions. The average attendance at these lectures during the first winter was between 20 and 30, and about the same number during the second year. 1793. {Dr. Bellamy.) But that would give no great means of judging what kind of class you would get in Oxford ? — Unfortunately not. 1794. {Chairman.) I see with regard to the other linguistic chairs, you suggest, first, that the chair of Comparative Philology, at least the one which you are at present in, should be understood as primarily relating to Aryan Philology ? — Y'es ; I imagine that it was founded with that intention. 1 795. Next that there should be, as at present, the Boden chair of Sanskrit without any change ; that there should be, as you have already mentioned, a chair of Zend and Persian ? — Yes. 1796. Then you reckon as coming within the same category the cbairs of Greek and Latin, which you leave as at jneseiu ; then the chair of Celtic, which was I think created and established during last year ; and ihat the chair of Anglo Saxon should be made a chair of Teutonic, which I think others have also suggested; and then that there should be a cbair of Slavonic ; there is no teaching of that language in the university, is there, unless it is in the Taylor Building? — No; the only provision which has been made for the Slavonic languages is Lord Ilchester’s bequest, by means of which certain lecturers are enabled to lecture upon Slavonic subjects in the Taylor Building. 1797. {Mr. Bernard.) Would you have a permanent chair of Slavonic ; I think that would depend to a great extent upon the number of probable students or the importance of having Slavonic taught in the univer- sity. Circumstances might arise under which it would be desirable to have a certain number of students in Oxford who are learning Slavonic ; and under those circumstances it seems to me that it would be well that the chair should be a permanent one, but until a permanent supply of pupils could be secured and a school of Slavonic formed, I should doubt whether it would be expedient to have more than a life profes- sorship. 1798. {Chairman.) I presume that so far as prac- tice is concerned, we have more need of speaking to Chinese in their own language than 1o Russians ? — I suppose so. 1799. Then you recommend a chair of Neo-Latin, or of Modern Romance Languages ? — Y'es. 1800. And there you stop. What relation, if any, would you establish between those chairs or that school, if I may call it so, and the teaching of modern languages which goes on in the Taylor Building ? — I am hardly prepared to answer that question. I do not know how many pupils the present teachers there have, and what success they have had in preparing pupils, and in teaching their subjects. 1801. What are the languages taught there ? — French, German, Italian, and Spanish. 1802. Not Slavonic ? — No, not Slavonic. 1803. You are not able to say what number of pupils each teacher has ? — No, I do not know. 1804. Is there a single teacher of each language ? — Yes. 1805. What does he receive as stipend ? — That again 1 am not prepared to state ; the stipend is not large, but it is increased by fees. 1806. It is a subject of some interest to know whether that Institution is found practically useful, or whether from any causes it languishes in the uni- versity. Do you know anything about that ? — I have attended in former days the lectures of the teacher of Italian, and also of the teacher of Spanish ; there were two other pupils besides myself attending the same lectures of the teacher of Italian, and one other pupil besides myself attending the lectures of the teacher of Spanish, but then that was only for less than a year. 1807. I presume that the number attending the French and German lectures would be considerably greater ? — Y’^es. I l)elieve the German class is alway s a large one, and I fancy that the French class is also large. 1808. {Dr. Bellamy.) Occasionally a scholarship is given for the promotion of proficiency in the Italian language, is it not ? — Yes, and sometimes in German or French. 1809. I suppose that when the turn for each language comes on one might expect greater classes ? — Yes. 1810. {Mr. Bernard.) When you speak of a Pro- fessor ot Neo-Latin or the Romance Languages, are you thinking of a teaching quite different from that which you might expect from any teacher in the Taylor Building? — Yes. 1811. {Chairman.) More entering into the history and structure of the language ? — Yes. Dealing with the higher aspects of the study. 1812. {Prof. Smith.) Do you regard the Neo-Latin languages as important philologically or on literary grounds ? — I should regard them as very important philologically, because, owing both to the fact that they are still spoken, and also to the fact that we are acquainted with their mother tongue, the Latin, we are able to study in them the laws and principles of comparative philology in a way which would be im- possible in the case of any of the extinct languages. 1813. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you mean the teaching to be mainly philological or to any extent literary , or that the teachers might, according to their own bent, make it either literary or philological ? — I should be inclined not to put any restriction upon the professor in that respect, because we might sometimes have a very eminent professor, whose excellence lay in the direction of literature, and not so much in that of philology pure and simple. 1814. {Chairman.) Although you are not able to tell us the numbers attending the French and German teachers, can you say whether they are at all com- mensurate with the practical importance of the ac- quisition of those languages ? — I should be inclined to think not, but I have no real data to go upon ; my reason for thinking that they are not would be that the lectures have tc be given in the afternoon at a time which is inconvenient to the undergraduates. Then, again, the lectures are only given three times a week, and naturally therefore it is very difficult, if not impossible, to learn much in the way of pronunciation or conversation. 1815. Do you think that anything could be usefully suggested to promote the study of those languages, or either of them, by the students who come up from school without any knowledge of them ? — I am afraid that it would be very difficult to do so. Some- thing has been done in that way by allowing modern languages to be taken in as a subject in the final Pass School. English and some of the modern lan- guages may now be taken in in the place of other work. 1816. We were informed by a gentleman who teaches in modern history that the higher honours in the Modern History School can seldom be gained without a knowledge of some of those modern languages ; is that your opinion ? — Yes ; but I think that does not go further than the power to read French and German. At the same time I confess that I have O 3 OXFORD. Rev. A. H. Sayce, M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. 110 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION -.—MINUTES OP EVIDENCE, OXFORD, Rev. A. H. Sayce, M.A. 26 Oct. 1877. been very much struck by the Ignorance which is fre- quently displayed by some of our best men of modern languages, especially German. I have often been asked to recommend books on philology or on theology, and when I have mentioned a German work the answer almost always has been either “ I do not know German,” or “ I know German very little.” 1817. I see you suggest that it might be perhaps expedient that in addition to the professors of Greek and Latin there should be sub-professors in those languages, educated for the purpose of dealing with the languages as distinct from the literatures ? — Yes. At present of course the Greek and Latin Professors have merely to deal with the literature of Greece and Rome, and with the classical languages in their literary foi'm ; but it would be advisable that they should be assisted by sub-professors or readers, who, if the professor dealt with the languages as distinct from the literature, might devote themselves to the literature, and, on the other hand, if the professor’s bent were literary rather than philosophical, might deal with the languages apart from the literature, as they are found, for instance, upon inscriptions, or as they are related to cognate tongues. 1818. And to trace the modifications of form which they have undergone so far as it is possible ? — Yes. 1819. With reference to the professorship of Chinese, have you anything to suggest ? — That, I suppose, remains as it is ; but from time to time it seems to me that circumstances might arise which would make the appointment of life professorships in other languages than Chinese desirable. 1820. Is Japanese quite a distinct language from Chinese ? — Entirely. 1821. Have they not the same kind of character ? — No, the structure is different. The Chinese is what is usually called isolating and the J.apanese agglutina- tive. 1822. Some of the languages of India which are not already provided for you think might be dealt with in the same way ? — I think so. Thus it might be found desirable to appoint a professor of the Dravidian languages, ineluding Tamil and Telugu. 1823. Is there anything which you wish to add to what you have ah-eady stated to the Commission ? — There is one point further ; oriental studies, I believe, would be encouraged by the establishment of a fund for publishing books or memoirs of importance re- lating to them. 1824. Are there many unpublished MSS. worth publishing in the Bodleian Library, which I believe is rich in that class of literature ^ — Some, at any rate. At the present moment a Dutch scholar is publishing an edition of the Arabic Historian Tabari, which is of considerable importance for oriental history, but the publication of the work will be very costly. Subscriptions towards it have been given by various learned societies and private individuals here and on the Continent. Were such a fund as I allude to in existence, a contribution might be made out of it towards the publication of works like the one which is now being undertaken in Holland by De Goeje. 1825. We shall have, I believe, brought before us a proposal which you have no doubt heard of, namely, to establish an Oriental Institute (I think Oriental or Indian has been the title suggested), and the question I want to ask you is whether you think in case such an institute could be established, it would be desirable or advisable to establish it upon a basis which should entitle it to the name of an Oriental Institute ; whether it would be possible to attempt, if such an institute were established at all, to make it include the whole range of Asiatic learning ^ — I hope very much that it will be found practicable to do so. I think it would be a matter of great impor- tance. 1826. Y’’ou think it would be better to endeavour if such an institution were resolved upon to give it the broader basis than a narrower one ? — Yes, I think so. 1827. You think that there are sufficient points of contact between the Semitic learning on the one hand and the Indian learning on the other hand (taking those as the extreme poles) to make it worth while to include the two, and to give them that connexion with one another ? — The different languages of the East are so much interlaced, and the histories of the races to whom those languages belong have been , so inter- mixed, that I think it would be desirable to put the institute on the broader basis, and to make it Oriental rather than specifically Indian. 1828. {3Ir. Bernard.) To carry your views into effect at all it would require a very large fund avail- able, and the exercise from time to time of very impoitant discretionary power both in determinin*^ what professorships should be created and who should be appointed to those professorships ; have you at all considered who should be the depositary of those powers ? — It is very difficult of course to sketch an ideal board of electors. My own theory upon the matter is that the board should consist of the vice-chancellor ex officio, a member elected by Convocation, two professors or other persons in the university whose studies lie in the same direction as the studies connected with the chair to which the appointment is to be made, and finally two experts in the subject who do not belong to Oxford, and so have not been mixed up with Oxford local interests. 1829. {Earl of Redesdale.) Who are to choose them ? — I should think that the appointment might be left in the hands of the Council. 1830. {Mr. Bernard.) Before you come to the election there is a question still more difficult, and perhaps more delicate, namely, to determine whether or not you shall elect a professor at all in any given subject, and there may be conflicting claims to a portion of the fund on the part of different subjects in which different persons are interested ; would you leave that to the congregation, or would you place the power of determining it in any other hands? — I should think that the power had better be left in the hands of the Council. 1831. {Prof. Smith.) You have examined in the Theological School in this university, have you not ? — Yes. 1832. You have told us than at present the study of Hebrew, as shown in that school, is not in a very advanced condition ; but do you tliink, or do you not think, that the school is likely to lead to some con- siderable improvement in that respect ? — I doubt it very much, because Hebrew is taken in only as a subsidiary subject, as one out of many. If the Hebrew scholarships have failed, as they seem to have done, to promote a thoroughly sound and good study of Hebrew in the university, I am afraid that success is still less to be expected from the Theological School. 1833. Can you suggest any course that the univer- sity could take which would tend to increase amongst the candidates for holy orders the pursuit of learning, because you must be aware that it is alleged, perhaps without truth, that learning is on the decline among the men who present themselves as candidates for holy orders among the younger clergy. Can you suggest to us any course that the university might take which would remedy that evil? — I could not suggest any worth consideration. 1834. {Chairman.) Would there be any strong ob- jection to requiring Hebrew as neebssary for the Theological School ? — I do not think it would be possible to do so, because the study of Hebrew- demands a certain amount of time and attention and ability, and as Hebrew is not usually taught in schools, undergraduates come to Oxford knowdno- nothing about it. The structure and grammar of Hebrew are very different from the structure and grammar of any of the languages with which they have been hitherto acquainted ; and consequently they re- quire a great deal of time and a certain amount of ability to master it. 1835. {Prof. Smith.) Even to construe the easier historical books ? — Yes ; at all events to do so to any purpose. J UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ill 1836. (/>. Bellamy.') It is very easily learned in many years at school, but very hard to learn in a few years at college ? — Yes ; especially when a man’s time is taken up with other work, and the study is quite new to him. 1837. {Chairman.) You think that to require it would practically have a tendency to limit very much the number of the candidates in the Theological School ? — I think so. At present I think all that can be done is done. Candidates are told that if a con- siderable knowledge of Hebrew is shown, it has great weight in the examination. 1838. {Prof. Smith.) Your opinion on the whole is, is it not, that the Theological School has worked successfully and has done good service ? — Yes; I should think so, certainly. 1839. That is your own impression derived from what you have seen of the work in the examinations ? — Yes, and also from the teaching of men in my own college whom I have prepared for the Theological School. They certainly have gained not only new knowledge, but also a certain power in looking, at theological subjects which they would not otherwise liave attained. 1840. You think that the course of study in that school does really give a general training to the mind as well as impart the knowledge required in the school ? — Yes. Even in the case of the weaker men I should say that it does. If the Commissioners will allow me, I beg to offer the following analysis in proof of my statement that the majority of the professors have no voice or part in the government of the colleges, and that many of them have no connexion with a college beyond that of an ordinary M.A. Putting aside the Grinfield lecturer on the Septua- gint and the two teachers of Hindustani and of Indian law and history, there are altogether 38 pro- fessors, one deputy professor, and two readers. Of these five are canons of Christ Church (the Regius Professors of Divinity and of Hebrew, the Margaret Professor of Divinity, and the Regius Professors of Pastoral Theology and of Ecclesiastical History). Of the remaining 33 professors, 1 1 hold fellowships in virtue of their professorships (the Professors of Geometry, Modern History (Regius), Experimental Philosophy, Law (Vinerian), Latin Literature, Inter- OXFORD. national Law, Modern History (Chichele), Chemistry, Physiology, Comparative Philology, and Jurispru- deuce). The reader in ancient history, furthermore, ' ' has lately been made a fellow of Hertford College. 26 Oct. 1877. Six professors, together with one reader, were fellows at the time of appointment to their chairs, and consequently retain their fellowships, not as pro- fessors but in virtue of their previous tenure (the Professors of Civil Law, Greek (who has since become master of Balliol), Natural Philosophy, Logic, Exegesis, and Moral Philosophy (Waynflete’s), and the . Reader in Law). There are five honorary fellows (the Professors of Medicine, Natural Philosophy, Minera- logy, Fine Art, and Keltic), including the Professor of Natural Philosophy, who also retains at another college the fellowship he held before his appointment as professor. Two of the five honorary fellows (the Professors of Medicine and Keltic) were formerly full fellows, but ceased to be so before their appointment as professors. The Laudian Professor of Arabic has lately been made an unendowed fellow of Hertford College, and may therefore be classed among those professors who are honorary fellows. The II remain- ing professors are without even the barren distinction of an honorai’y fellowship, and the connexion with a college which it implies (the Professors of Astronomy, Moral Philosophy (Whyte’s), Ancient History, Music, Botany and Rural Economy, Poetry, Anglo-Saxon, Political Economy, Sanskrit, Zoology, and Chinese). Four of them (the Professors of Moral Philosophy (Whyte’s), Ancient History, Political Economy, and Anglo-Saxon) formerly held fellowships, to which, however, they have not been re-elected since their appointments as professors. Consequently, apart from the five professorships to which canonries are attached, there are but 11 professorships, the holders of which belong to the governing body of a college qua professors, while there are 22 professorships whose occupants as such have no voice in the management of a college. And yet some of them (as in the case of the Sedleian Professor of Natural Philosophy) may draw a portion of their stipends from college revenues. It is a mere accident that six of the present holders of these 22 professorships were fellows when appointed to their chairs. This analysis has been corrected up to November 1877. The witness withdrew, Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o’clock. OXFORD. Saturday, 27th October 1877. Present : The Right Honourable LORD SELBORNE in the Chair. The Right Hon. The Earl of Redesdale. I The Rev. James Bellamy, D.D. The Right Hon. Modntague Bernard, D.C.L. | Professor H. J. S. Smith, M.A. The Rev. T. Verb Bayne and T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretaries. J. R. Thursfield, Esq., (Fellow of Jesus College,) examined.’’ J. R. Thurs- field, Esq., main to continue what it is at present, or is in some M.A. respects to extend its functions. The question was stated by the Rector of Lincoln, in a passage which I 2 7 Oct. 187 7. should like to quote if I might be permitted, in these words ; “ Shall we have a university to which free “ science and liberal letters attract by their own “ lustre only such ingenuous youth as have a true “ vocation, or shall we have a great national lycee “ through the routine of which we shall attempt to O 4 1841. {Chairman.) You are or have been one of the tutors of Jesus College ? — Yes. 1842. I propose to take what you have to say in the order in which it is put down in the paper which you have been good enough to send to us ; and first of all with regard to university requirements, will you state on what in your own opinion these depend ? — The question seems to me to be an extremely difficult one according as the university is regarded as likely in the 112 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J. R, Thurs- field. Esq., M.A. 27 Oct. 1877. “ force willing and unwilling, apt and unapt alike, by “ the stimulus of emulation, of honours, prizes, and “ rewards ?” That, it occurs to me, opens an ex- tremely wide question. From certain clauses of the University Act I should suppose that at least to some extent the Act contemplated taking rather the wider view of the functions of the university than the narrower one stated by the Rector of Lincoln, though I acknowledge that the contrast is stated in stronger words than I should be disposed to use myself. 1843. {^Mr. Bernard.) Do not you think that w'e should be rather likely to go astray if we took either the very wide view of it, or the narrower view, and proceeded to discuss the question simply as if it lay between them ? — 1 rather doubted which of the tendencies I was likely to be called upon to speak on, 1844. Are we bound to accept either the very broad or the very narrow view of the question ? — No. I quoted the words rather as representing two extreme views than as exactly expressing my own view. 1845. What we should like to hear is your own view of what is desirable ; the words of the Act that we have to deal with are those in the 11th section, and the question which I think we are now considering is, what are “ the main purposes relative to the uni- versity for which provision should be made and then afterwards there may be a question as to how those purposes may be met. We should like to hear your view as to the main purposes relative to the uni- versity, for which provision should be made under the powers of this Act ? — My own view with regard to the university of course is that in the first place it should be a great educational institution ; but to call it a great educational institution appears to me to raise the question of the direct means of education, and also the indirect means of education, such as the promotion of knowledge and learning as such. I understand the purposes of the university to be education pri- marily, and as the chief means of that, the promotion of learning and knowledge. 1846. {Chainnan.) That being the principle, what in your view are the needs of the university, and how should they be provided for ? — I should like rather to divide that question, with the permission of the Com- mission, into two questions. The material needs of institutions and so forth, and the needs of teaching and persons. With regard to the material needs, I think I may refer generally to the report of the Hebdo- madal Council. I certainly think that the Rodleian, which is an institution from which I have greatly profited of late years, needs further assistance from the university. Again, the university is extremely deficient in what might be called academical offices. 1847. What exactly do you mean by academical offices ? — Such as are mentioned in the report in calling attention to the “ great and increasing in con- “ venience arising from the want of proper rooms and “ offices for conducting the business of the university.” It occurred to me as proctor, when I had to attend a great number of delegacies, that the deficiencies of the university were very considerable in that respect. Some of the most important delegacies of the uni- versity have very great difficulty in carrying on their work, because it is very often extremely difficult to find a room in which they can meet without inter- ruption. It rai'ely happens in the case of some delegacies, which frequently have to occupy a con- siderable portion of time in their meetings, that they are not driven from room to room because the room in which they generally meet is wanted for another delegacy, a meeting of which had been ap- pointed fo) the same time, or at a time which followed too closely upon the time of the previous appointment ; and it certainly appears to me that such delegacies as the Schools Examination Delegacy, and the Local Examinations Delegacy, and especially the Delegacy of Unattached Students, are very much in want of more extended accommodation. 1848. {Dr. Bellamy.) Those needs you look upon as quite incapable of being postponed, or nearly so ? — They are incapable of being postponed longer than is absolutely necessary. The difficulty arises almost every time the delegacies meet. I was sitting on the Local Examination Delegacy only yesterday, and we were interrupted at 4 o’clock by the advent of another delegacy. 1849. {Chairman.) Are the rooms required daily for many of those delegacies? — The office work of the delegacies I have mentioned must be done some- where, and is continually going on. The meetings of the delegacies are not so frequent of course. 1850. They might be arranged, might they not, so as to be held in the same apartment at such times as by experience might be found convenient ? — Yes, certainly ; only as 1 say my experience as proctor was that those arrangements tended to break dov/n from the very small amount of accommodation at the disposal of the university. But it is not so much for the meeting of delegacies as for the actual office work, -which is very considerable in the case of such delegacies as the Schools Examination Delegacy, and the Local Examinations Delegacy, that further accommodation is required, and also for the delegacy of Unattached Students in which the business is con- tinuous. The Hebdomadal Council, I think, stated the amount of accommodation that is required in the latter case. 1851. {Mr. Bernard.) The meetings of delegacies do in fact, I think, take place almost always in the same room, do they not ? — In the delegates’ room. There are, so far as I know, only three rooms at present where they can take place. One is a room which, though very inconvenient, is used as the office of the Local Examinations Delegacy ; another is the room ordinarily called the delegates’ room, which is always unavailable on the Monday because the Council meets there ; and the third is the office of the Curators of the Chest which is also used continually as an office, and in which the clerks are sitting day by day. In that room the Curators of the Chest meet weekly. 1852. {Chairman.) I see it is suggested in this report concerning the wants of the censors of un- attached students that they should have “ a clerk’s office as now, but entirely for the use of that delegacy,” If there were a room of sufficient size and accommo- dation would there be any difficulty in doing the clerical part of the different delegacies at different desks in one room ? — I should think there probably would be. I am not practically acquainted with the working of the Lodging-house Delegacy and the Unattached Students Delegacy, because those are delegacies on which I did not serve when I was proctor. With respect to the Lodging-house Delegacy, and the Unattached Students Delegacy, owing to the constant applications of unattached students and persons connected with lodging-houses I should think that a room would be wanted in which such inter- views as are necessary between the clerks and the censors of unattached students, as well as the students themselves, and applicants from outside, could be held without interruption. 1853. I am only speaking of the clerks’ business. Of course, so far as the censors are concerned, it would not be convenient that they should see the unattached students in a general clerks’ office ; but so far as merely clerical work is concerned, is there anything in the nature of one delegacy as distinguished from another, which would prevent it from being done in the same room, such work as copying and writing letters, and so on, and copying instructions ? — I should scarcely like to answer that question. It appears to me rather one which will require more technical acquaintance with the actual working of the delega- cies than I possess, to answer. 1854. {3Ir. Bernard.) Perhaps it might be incon- venient if the clerks were not where the papers are and where the delegates under whom they are acting themselves habitually are, or at any rate in close proximity to them ? — Exactly. The practice of the Local Examinations Delegacy, and of the Curators of the Chest is that the secretary of each body works with his own clerks in the same room, and each I'NIVRUSITV OF OXFOUl) COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 113 secretary would probably require a room in each case. I imagine you could scarcely separate the secretary from his clerk or clerks ; and therefore you would not really gain any space by placing the permanent clerks of the various delegacies or boards in one room. Then, again, I have no doubt that the amount of accommodation for professors is very limited indeed. It is true that there exist the college halls, but they are very ill adapted for professors’ lectures, and they are generally, I believe, found very inconvenient by the professors. It has frequently happened that the pro- fessors have been compelled to move about from one lecture room to another, and they very often find none. I may say that so far as I know there are only about three lecture rooms which are really available for tbe professors in the university, exclusive of the college halls, and the rooms provided at the museum for professors teaching there. 1855. Is your own college hall used at all for lecturing purposes ? — I have used it largely myself, but it is very inconvenient and it accommodates a very small number ; if any very large attendance were expected the hall would have to be specially arranged for it. 1856. I presume tbe more largely it is used by the college the less available it is likely to be for the pro- fessors, who must fix their hours according to their own convenience or that of their pupils ? — Certainly. I had myself to go to another college and beg the hall, because the hall of my own college w'as already occu- pied by another lecturer. 1857. Do you mean for your own college lecture ? — Yes, for my own college lecture, which happened to contain a good many men from other colleges ; and that is the case very much also with the professors. 1858. We cannot, therefore, in your opinion, look to the college halls as likely to be very serviceable for the lectures of the professors ? — Not to any large extent ; they are likely to be used a great deal more by the colleges themselves as the lectures grow in size, owing to the working of the intercollegiate system. Consequently, even if they were convenient, which in most cases they are not, they would scarcely be avail- able to any very large extent. 1859. {Chairman.) Is that all which you have to say with reference to what I may call the material wants of the university ? — Yes. I should rather hesitate to speak about the wants of the museum. My own belief is that they are considerable, but I could not specify them with any confidence. 1860. What have you to say with regard to the wants of the university as to teachers ? — As regards the vants as to teachers I should prefer, with the permission of the Commissioners, to confine myself to the subjects with which I have been mosf connected in my own experience, both as a tutor and as an examiner, namely, chiefly to the Literae Humaniores School. There exists in this report of the Council, at page 85, a representation from the Board of Studies, which I had a share in drawing up. On this question I feel a difficulty in not being quite certain how far the teaching proposed to be provided is to be considered as directly connected with the School of Literae Humaniores as it at present exists, or on the other hand how far the Board of Studies may be considered to be recommending a range of teaching somewhat more extensive than that which is at present recognised in the Literae Humaniores School. Certainly, although I am not quite sure as to the best mode of providing for all the wants which are specified by the Board of Studies, I do not think that my view of the necessity of such studies as are recognised by that Board, would be met by a smaller number of provisions than are recommended there. 1861. What is recommended there is that there should be under the head of philosophy two readers in addition to the present professors, and that there should be under the head of ancient history one additional professor, and one additional reader, and that there should be under the head of philology two additional professors, one of Greek and one of Latin, Q 6223. and four additional readers, and also an extraordinary OXFORD. professor in the various departments which are men- tinned, and a professorship of classical archaeology '^hurs and art ; that is to say, there would be four or five ’ additional professors and several readers ? — Yes. My ! own opinion is that that amount of teaching is 27 Oct. 1877 necessary, but whether it should be provided for partly by professors and partly by readers, or whether it should be provided for by professors acting in concert with intercollegiate lecturers, seems to me a very difficult question. I have always felt myself that it was difficult exactly to explain the precise relation which the readers would bear to the professors on the one hand and to the college lecturers on the other hand. 1862. Have you overcome that difficulty sufficiently to give the Commission any solution of it which presents itself to your mind ? — My own impression is that the readers might with advantage be replaced by intercollegiate lecturers, recognised to a certain extent by the university, as has been proposed in the Cambridge report on university requirements. 1863. When yon say recognised by the university, would yon be so good as to tell us what yon mean by that? — Something in the form which is specified in the Cambridge report. It runs thus : — “ Any college “ lecturer who, with the concurrence of his college, “ throws open all or any of his lectures to the whole “ university may apply for recognition to the Board of “ Studies connected with the department to which the “ lectures belong. The application is to be made in “ writing, and is to be accompanied by a statement of “ the nature and subject of the intended lectures. “ The board may require any evidence of competency “ which they may think fit. If the recognition of the “ board be granted, the lecturer shall be admitted to “ the conference of teachers, and notice of his lectures “ published in the official list herein-after described.” 1864. Would that be the only consequence of I’ecognition that he would be admitted to the con- ference of teachers and have notice of his lectures published by the university authority in the official list? — He is then empowered to deliver in each year one course of open lectures approved by the board, that is to say, lectures open to all members of the uni- versity, either freely or on payment of a fee approved by the board. 1865. Then practically that recognition would make no difference except that it would ensure better organi- sation by the admission of intercollegiate lecturers to this conference ? — Exactly, but at the same time I have never been able to quite to determine for myself wbat difference there would be in practice between a university reader and an intercollegiate lecturer having university recognition of this kind. 1866. That is to say, according to your conception the function of a reader when he is brought into contact with his students would be exactly the same as the function of an intercollegiate lecturer ? — That is my impression certainly. 1867. {Mr. Bernard.) The intercollegiate lecturers at present in Oxford have an advantage which is practically the same in the way of having their lectures advertised, because they all do now advertise them in the “University Gazette ”? — Yes. 1868. And they also can and do take part in the conferences that are held respecting their respective studies, and indeed they form these conferences, do they not ? — That is the case ; but at present the inter- collegiate systems in Oxford are quite independent associations, having no relation on the one hand to the professors or on the other to the Boards of Studies, and their organization is therefore private, unofficial, and independent. 1869. I am rather considering what advantage a man would be supposed to get by obtaining the recognition of the Board of Studies ? — My notion of the advantage which would be secured is that if the matter were of a more general, public, and official character the intercollegiate lecturers together with the professors would in all probability cover the ground, and that P 114 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J. R. Thurs- field. Esq., M.A. 27 Oct. 1877. then I do not see quite what ground would be left to be occupied by the public readers. 1870. {Dr. Bellamy.') What inducement would you hold out to a prosperous intercollegiate lecturer to place himself under the direction of tlie university in that way? — Simply tliat he would gain university recognition, and would practically occupy the position of a university professor or reader, as the case may be. 1871. You do not propose to make any pecuniary allowance to him, or anything of that sort, in the university? — So long as he is paid as he is in fees, and adequately paid, tliat would save tlie university a considerable sum of money, and also save the possibility of the work being done twice by two different sets of men. 1872. { Chairman.) As I understand you, so far as tlie readers are concerned, you think that there would be a large waste of power and of money in having a double system, that is to say, a system of university readers and a system of intercollegiate lecturers pari passu in the same subjects? — Yes. 1873. And, secondly, that if the intercollegiate lecturers were brought into connexion with the university organisation in the manner which you pro- pose, it would not be necessary for the university funds to be taxed for any additional payments to them ? — That is certainly in the main my opinion. 1874. And that the practical objects of the one system and of the other would be sufficiently answered ? — Speaking very generally, I should cer- tainly think so. The intercollegiate system is one of recent growth ; it is rapidly developing and with very great advantage I think both to the teachers and to the taught, and I think that in all probability it will in the course of time organise itself so far as to provide an amount of teaching which the uni- versity would be glad to recognise, and which would also relieve the university very considerably from the necessity of establishing its own teachers at a very great expense. 1875. Do you think that the elastic and, if I may use that expression, the spontaneous character of that system seems to give it an advantage over any formal scheme which might he devised by the university? — Certainly, for the reason that it has grown up at pre- sent in order to meet an acknowledged want, and, although not with absolute perfection, it does prac- tically meet that want to a very great extent. 1876. Do you think that with reference to the choice of teachers and the men who are to lecture, those conditions involve a security for efficiency which might perhaps not always be obtained in the appointment of university readers ? — I think that the security for efficiency is at least as great, if not perhaps greater, because the intercollegiate lecturer depends upon the recognition of his efficiency by his colleagues and by the college as well ; and also if he receives university recognition there would be a further security that he would not get it unless he enjoyed a considerable reputation in the university for efficiency. 1877. On the other hand, if he was a university reader, he would be appointed once for all, would he not ? — Yes. 1878. In connexion with that subject, perhaps you will favour us with your opinion upon a matter upon which we have received opinions from more gentle- men than one, as to the advantage of maintaining, or not, the collegiate system of teaching for honour students. Some are of opinion, apparently, that it would be well if the whole teaching of the honour students were assumed by the university, and that the collegiate system of teaching should gradually be ab- sorbed or merged in the university system ; what is your opinion upon that subject ? — As a matter of fact, the higher teaching of honour students is at present rarely provided for by a single college. There are, I suppose, few colleges where the honour students do not go to lecturers in other colleges associated with their own tutors, and I think that so far is a very considerable advantage to the students. 1879. Should you or not be disposed to carry it fur- ther, to sever the connexion of that system of teaching from the colleges and make it a university system only ? — So far as my own experience goes I should think it would not be entirely an advantage. I should say that although a great deal of teaching might better be given out of college than in college, because if a student goes out of college he goes perhaps to a lecturer who can give him exactly the instruction that he wants, and such as he might fail to receive within the college, yet I think that the general super- vision and teaching, counsel, and advice, which he has a right to expect from his tutor can best be given by a tutor resident on the spot. 1880. So that you think the contact between the student and the teacher is closer under the collegiate system such as you have described, than it would be if the university entirely assumed to itself that function ? — Yes, I think so. 1881. And that is an advantage? — It has its advan- tages most decidedly ; and so long as the instruction is entirely with a view to examination, and the exami- nations remain substantially what they are at present, I do not know how it would be possible to dispense with the supervision and the counsel which the college tutor gives independently of the actual instruction which he communicates in his lectures. 1882. {Mr. Bernard.) In the subjects of the School of Literaa Humaniores do you know whether the lectures of the intercollegiate lecturers are practically open to persons not belonging to the associated colleges ? — Yes, certainly. Of course you are aware that there are two distinct associations of inter- collegiate lecturers relating to the final examination. One consists of Balliol, Exeter, New College, and Trinity, and several other colleges. In that associa- tion there is an arrangement for payment. Each student from each college is paid for by the college from which he goes to the lecturer to whom he goes. 1883. {Chairman.) That is provided in substance out of the fees which the college receives for tuition ? — I believe so. The other system is the one with which I was associated when I was a tutor, and in which there is no payment whatever ; it is simply an interchange of lectures ; that is to say there is no payment between the various colleges which form the association, but undergraduates from other colleges may attend any of the lectures by arrangement and by the payment of a small fee. 1884. {31r. Bernard.) In the case of the first com- bination to which you refer, does the same liberty exist or not ? — I could not say, for I never was a member of that association, and therefore I am not quite sure. I should imagine that arrangements could be made. But with reference to our own association we alw'ays appended a note to our list that we would accept students from any college on payment of a certain fee, and in my own case I receive unattached students and students from various colleges by arrangement with themselves or with their tutors. 1885. To how many colleges does that combination which you now speak of extend ? — I think it includes Lincoln, Jesus, Queen’s, Merton, Oriel, Magdalen, Brasenose, and for certain purposes Corpus. 1886. So that the university is becoming almost entirely divided, as we may say, between those two great confederations ? — For the teaching of the Literae Humaniores, I suppose it is. 1887. {Chairman.) Are there not some large col- leges which do not belong to either of them ? — Christ Church and Corpus are associated together ; but Cor- pus only sends its men to our association for certain branches of teaching. Christ Church never belonged to our association in any way. 1888. How is it with regard to Exeter? — Exeter belongs to the other association. 1889. {Mr. Bernard.) Do many men from other colleges attend, so far as you are aware, the lectures of the intercollegiate lecturers in that association ? — I do not think I had more than three or four men myself from other colleges, except on one or twm occasions, UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 115 vvlien Iroiu tlie college tutor being ill, or unable to take his work for a term, an arrangement was made whereby his pupils came to me. 1890. However, that is less important, because if the university became really divided, as I said just now, between those confederations, every man in every college would practically be able, would he not, to have recourse to a tutor of some eminence chosen out of this large field ? — Quite so. 1891. So far as this intercollegiate system tends to absorb the teaching in Literae Humaniores, to that extent the actual teaching, I suppose, in all these colleges becomes less and less collegiate in the proper sense of the term ? — The actual lecturing certainly is becoming less and less collegiate, but there still remains the instruction given sine ulla solennitate by each tutor to his own special pupils, and that is still strictly collegiate. 1892. That is becoming less and less the case so far as regards the teaching which is given by a tutor in his own college ? — A complete curriculum of instruc- tion furnished by a single college or a single tutor is decidedly less frequent than it used to be. 1893. So that the function of a tutor becomes more and more a function of supervision and less of direct teaching ?— Yes j in the way in which I think it is described in the university statutes. 1894'. (^Chairman.) Does every tutor take part in the association ? — No, not in the case of the associa- tion to which I belonged. I was the only tutor in my college who took a part in the intercollegiate system. 1894a. Did the other tutors in your college confine themselves to teaching passmen within the walls — No ; my colleagues it is true had a larger proportion of passmen than of classmen among their pupils, and therefore of course a great deal of their work was of the character required by passmen, but such of the work as was needed and they were willing to undertake they undertook for classmeia as well as for passmen. 1895. (^Mr. Bernard^ Then a great deal of the class work is still done by college tutors dealing with the men of their own colleges ? — Yes ; but rather in the way of looking over essays and private conversation. 1896. I suppose that you attach a great deal of value to the tutorial system, and to this kind of informal instruction which is given by the tutors to the men of their own colleges ? — Very decidedly. 1897. You would be very sorry to see it in any way interfered with ? — To any much larger extent than it is interfered with at present, I should, on the other hand, be very sorry to see the colleges go back to their former isolation and independence of teaching. I do not quite see how, even in the limited sphere occupied by the Literm Humaniores School, it is now possible for a college, without a large and wasteful expenditure of its force, to carry on the whole in- struction that is required. 1898. To some extent, I presume, it must be inter- fered with now, and the tutor’s influence must be less where he does not himself teach than where he teaches as well as supervises ? — His influence is to that extent reduced ; but on the other hand, being not so much called upon to expand himself over a large field, he has more time to concentrate himself on the subjects in which he is specially interested, and also, if he thinks proper, to deal with his pupils in the way of private instruction and private intercourse. 1899. And all that yoir think most valuable ? — Certainly. 1900. {Chairman.') With regard to the teaching of Greek, does all that you have been saying apply as regards the readers ? — Yes. I think the amount of teach- ing there specified is needed, though, as 1 have already stated, I am not quite sure how it can best be supplied, 1901. It was recommended that there should be two additional professors, one of Greek and one of Latin ; are you of opinion that it is important that there should be two such additional professors as distinct from readers ? — I fully agree with what is said in the introductory remark, “ that a professor of Greek or “ Latin can hardly be expected to have a profound “ knowledge of more than a few authors. Homeric OXFORD “ philology and criticism, or Greek philosophy, or •— “ the writings of Aristotle, or the Greek orators or the Thurs Greek tragedians, may well be the study of a life.” If we have only one professor of Greek it is quite impossible that he should cover the whole subject. 27 Oct. 1877. 1902. Perhaps you might say tliat even of two, — might you not ? — Yes, certainly. 1903. Do you adopt that view of the object of the professoriate, that you should have a sufficient number to cover the whole subject in that sense ? — No, I should not be prepared to go to that extreme view, but I should hesitate to adopt the opposite view, that it was desirable to have a single professor with a field which it is quite impossible for him to cover. 1904. Supposing you multiplied the professors, how would you secure the subdivision of knowledge which would be necessary, because if the professors are as far as possible to cover the field, you would wish to have one professor whose knowledge would supplement that which is defective in the knowledge of the other, would you not ? — I suppose that a properly constituted board of electors in selecting a new professor would take into account that portion of the range of subjects which was already covered by the existing chair, and would therefore do its best to secure a new pro- fessor who would cover another portion of it. 1905. Would that be a very easy thing to do ? — It is certainly, not at all an easy thing properly to constitute a board of electors, or to make them perform their functions adequately. 1906. Would it be easy for any such board to gauge the attainments of the existing professor and the ad- ditional one in the way that would be necessary for that subject ? — So far as I know, the difficulty is got over in Germany, where in the case of a vacant professorship those who are responsible for supplying it genei'ally speaking endeavour to supply it by a person who will himself fill up a deficiency in their subject. 1907. {Mr. Bernard.) In Germany I think a man would not be so commonly appointed a professor of Egyptian antiquities, or a professor of Syriac, or of Arabic, as he would be appointed a professor of philology, leaving him to follow his own bent ; is not that the case ? — I think that generally his subject is more limited than that, but not so closely limited as we generally limit them in England. 1908. It is practically found, is it not, that by leaving a man some freedom to follow his own bent, considerable diversity in the lectures, and in the pursuit of study, is secured ? — Yes, I believe so ; but 1 think although a professor in Germany is generally a professor in a given faculty, yet his title and function is very much more limited than that. It is a point which I have found it rather difficult to get information upon. 1909. {Chairman.) Is it common in Germany to have two professors nominally in the same subject with a co-ordinate position in the same university ? — There are, of course, professors ordinary and extra- ordinary and the privat-docenten. 1910. Those are distinctions Avhich I intended to exclude. I meant two co-ordinate professors not dis- tinguishable in respect of title from each other ; is that usual in the same branch of knowledge ? — I think in some cases it is, but it is rather where the faculty is particularly anxious to attract a very distinguished man ; in fact they make a place for him. 1911. {Prof. Smith.) Surely at a large university in Germany it very often happens that they have several professors of the same subject ? — The pro- fessors are not as a rule specified by their titles in the lists of lectures, so that it is a little difficult to answer the question with precision. 1912. {Chairman.) I see upon your paper that there is a note as to the relations between lecturers and tutors ; probably you have already anticipated that ? — Yes. 1913. With regard to the relations of the univer- sity to college teaching in science : — I think you P 2 116 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J. It. Thurs- field. Esq., M.A. 37 Oct. 1877. have not said anything specifically on that subject ? — The colleges have never provided scientific teaching to any large extent. So far as my own experience goes, although many colleges have provided for them- selves lecturers in science, yet college tutors have as a rule regarded the teaching of science as lying outside their own functions. Practically the teaching in science of the university has been furnished almost exclusively by the museum. 1914. That is in what is called natural science ? — Yes. 1915. With regard to pure science is it a study which is very progressive in the university : — I mean has the number of students in j)ure science largely increased of late years, in mathematics for instance ? — As to mathematics I cannot speak with any confidence. 1916. But in natural science there is a considerable tendency to increase? — Yes. 1917. And your opinion is that natural science may be regarded as substantially taught by the university and not by the colleges ? — Yes. The relations between the university and the colleges are reversed as regards natural science as compared with the classical studies of the place. 1918. I see you have noted that in your opinion there is a deficiency which ought to be supplied by the colleges. In what manner would you suggest that the colleges should supply it ? — At present many professors in the museum are called upon to discharge functions which are in the classical studies discharged by college tutors. The consequence is, it appears to me, that they have less time for the proper functions of a pro- fessor than other professors have. If the university professors are to be changed with the general educa- tion of the students in science, then it appears to me that they should be supplemetited and aided by a con- siderable body of sub-professors or readers or lecturers or demonstrators, as they might be called ; and inas- much as the colleges furnish the students and receive tuition fees from them they should be asked to con- tribute something towards paying those persons who have to aid the professors. That was rather the view which I wished to put forward. 1919. You think that the supply of those readers, lecturers, or demonstrators in the natural science school may be legitimately provided for at the ex- pense of the colleges ? — That was my view, and it has been done to a certain extent already, I believe. The colleges have paid the laboratory fees of chemical students for instance. 1920. {Dr. Bellamy.) Those fees hardly cover more than the actual material expenses, do they ? — I believe not. 1921. {Chairman.) What is your view with regard to the function of boards of studies ? — With regard to that subject, boards of studies are, it appears to me, charged in this statement of the requirements of the university with a great many functions which certainly were not contemplated when boards of studies were originally constituted. As I understand, boards of studies were established in the university mainly for the purpose of supervising the conduct of the examinations, prescribing the subjects which should be recognised in the schools from time to time and so forth. Now it seems to be thought desirable that boards of studies should hold the position of being generally charged with the general academical in- terests of such studies as well as with the examination interests of the branches of knowledge with which they are specially connected. I am not quite sure that the present structure of boards of studies fits them for the latter function quite so well as it did for the former function for which they were originally con- structed. 1922. {Prof. Smith.) You think that the great pre- dominance given to actual examiners in the boards of studies does not fit those boards for the wider range of duties which it has been proposed to assign to them ? — I would not say that it unfitted them ; but if we had been constructing boards of studies for the purpose of exercising a general supervision over the branches of knowledge and studies represented by them we should probably have constructed them originally in a some- what different way. 1923. {Mr. Bernard.) Could you suggest any remedy for that? — I should not he prepared at this moment to say exactly how I would amend their constitution, but I think that it might be altered. The point which I wish to make clear is that we constructed the boards of studies for one purpose and one set of duties, and now there is a tendency to devote them to another purpose and another set of duties for which they are ipso facto not so well con- stituted or qualified as for the original purposes. 1924. Do not you think it almost inevitable that a board of studies having been created for the purposes contemplated by the statutes should come to be con- sidered as the representative of the group of studies which belonged to it ? — I think, certainly, it is almost inevitable ; but I am not sure that it is alto- gether desirable. 1925. I understood you to say that if that tendency is to take effect it might be well to modify the consti- tution of the boards of studies ? — That is certainly my view. It should be quite understood what their func- tion is, and if it is to be enlarged so as to comprise the general interests of the studies they represent, their meetings should be more formal and their trans- actions should be more systematic, and they should not depend as they do at present on the precarious and irregular attendance of the various members ; moreover, they should be strengthened, I think, by a larger element of persons known to be interested in particular studies, but not necessarily having or having had any direct relation to the examination. 1926. {Chairman.) Do you think that all the inter- collegiate lecturers in the different subjects should belong to the Boards of Studies ? — That would make the board a little unwieldy I should think, but it is proposed in the Cambridge report that “ the inter- “ collegiate lecturers recognised by any board who “ are not university readers shall be entitled to choose “ two of their number to represent them on the “ board by which they are recognised.” That is a device for reducing the number of the board, and increasing its efficiency, which might perhaps be adopted with advantage. 1927. It has been recommended, has it not, by the Hebdomadal Council that all the university readers should be on the Boards of Studies ? — Yes, I think that is so. 1928. Is it now one of the functions of each Board of Studies to arrange the order of courses of lectures ? — No, it has nothing to do with that. 1929. Would it be desirable for the sake of good organisation as to tune and subjects that that should be done? — It is certainly desirable that it should be done by some agency ; whether by the agency of the actual lecturers meeting and discussing the subject themselves, or meeting in concert with the Board of Studies, I am not prepared to say at this moment. 1930. Would it also be important that the different boards or the lecturers in the different classes of sub- jects should arrange it together ? — That is already done with regard to intercollegiate lectures. We meet terminally and decide the general range of subjects which shall be treated by the association in the ensuing term. 1931. How are the professors’ lectures taken into account in those arrangements ; do they communi- cate with the professors, and learn what they pro- pose ? — Not always. In some cases the professors are members of the associations, and from them we generally learn what they propose to do; in other cases it has occasionally been difficult to obtain in- formation of what the professors intend to do. 1932. Then there is no concert ? — No ; that I think is a disadvantage. 1933. {Mr. Ber?iard.) However, the old faculty organisation seems tending to revive again in some form ? — Yes. 1934. And you think it desirable to methodise it ? UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 117 — Yes. I do not know tliat tlie old faculty organisa- tion was the best, but to methodise it in some new form woidd certainly be desirable. 19.35. (Chairman.') I suppose it would be equally necessary that the different schools or faculties should arrange together, so that those who wished to attend lectures in more schools or faculties than one should have an opportunity through a proper arrangement — I think it would be very desirable if it were possible, but the number of lectures is so very large that it is almost impossible to provide against clashing. We find great difficulties even within the circle of the inter- collegiate association, and it tends to become a much greater difficulty, owing to the large area from which our pupils are drawn, than it used to be. Any dis- location of a single lecture will very often require two or three days’ consideration for re-adjustment. 1936. {Prof. Smith.) This difficulty arises to a great extent, does it not, from there being only three hours in the day at which lectures can be given at Oxford ? — I should be sorry to think that there were only three, but practically it is reduced to that in many cases. 1937. (Dr. Bellamy.) Could not you allow four? — I should be sorry to have to acknowledge that there were only three, or only four. I never could under- stand myself why lectures could not be given as they are in Germany, in the afternoon. 1938. (Prof. Smith.) As a matter of fact 10, 11, and 12 are the hours at which by far the greatest part of the lectures given in Oxford is given? — Yes, but the practice is growing up of giving instruction, less formal perhaps than lecturing, between five and six. 1939. (Mr. Bernard.) There are some, are there not, who lecture at nine in the morning ? — Yes ; as a rule I lectured at nine throughout the year, and I never had any difficulty in getting my pupils to come. 1940. (Chairman.) Is it to recreation that all the hours after mid-day are sacrificed, or to what other consideration ? — I should say in the main to recreation, at least as regards the undergraduates. 1941. So that besides the very liberal vacations, even during the working time more than half the day is left open to recreation, is that so ? — On the part of the students it is. I think it wmuld not be fair to say that it is on the part of the teachers, because there are few teachers who have not a good deal of university occupation. I expect that few active tutors find even the whole of their afternoons belonging to them. 1942. (Mr. Bernard.) I suppose they also give some time to study ?— Y’’es ; but I doubt if much is given in the afternoon. At the same time there is no doubt that a great deal cf instruction, and the amount is growing, is given not in the form of lectures, but rather in the form of more private inter- course in the later hours of the afternoon. 1943. (Prof. Smith.) Between five and six in the afternoon, and between eight and eleven at night, would you say ? — Yes. 1944. (Chairman.) Taking the difficulty to be a practical one as to lecturing after mid-day to large classes, would there be an equal difficulty in those subjects where the lectures must necessarily be to small classes ? — I think that with the habits of under- graduates it would be found extremely difficult to get them to a lecture between two and five in the after- noon. 1945. Supposing there were students in Arabic, they would be very few, would they not? — I should imagine so. 1946. Who probably would have very special objects and motives for following up that study? — Yes. 1947. Do you think that they would object to come at any reasonable hour in the afternoon at which the lectures were given ? — 1 should think not. The students in the modern languages are generally few, but the lectures in those subjects are always given between two and five in the afternoon. I have attended such classes myself, they have generally been small, but the men have generally attended with great regu- larity. Any man wdio distinctly wants teaching in a OXFORD. particular subject will arrange his time for that teach- ing at whatever hour of the day it is given. But the average undergraduate I expect would be found very ’ difficult to bring to a lecture between two and five in the afternoon without compulsion, or even, I may sav, 27 Oct. 1877 with it. 1948. You have noted the 16th clause of the Act as a subject on which you have something to offer .? — I wish to refer especially to the 1 1th sub-section which runs thus : — “For diminishing the expense of univer- “ sity education by founding scholarships tenable by “ students either at any college or hall within the “ university, or as unattached students, not members “ of any college or hall, or by paying salaries to the “ teachers of such unattached students, or by other- “ wise encouraging such unattached students.” 1949. The Commission would be very glad to hear anything which you would suggest upon that subject ? — It seemed to me rather to raise the question of what one might call eleemosynary endowments as opposed to educational endowments, and I have had rather a large experience from the endowments of my own college of the working of eleemosynary endow- ments. I do not precisely understand how the scholar- ships or exhibitions can be confined to unattached students, as opposed to other members of the univer- sity, unless the standard of attainments is placed rather lo'.v, or they are restricted as a great many exhi- bitions are in my own college by the condition that the applicant for them should give evidence of stand- ing in the need of assistance at the university. The standard of attainments could not be placed high in the case of unattached students unless it were re- stricted in some way, because there is a strong ten- dency on the part of unattached students to become members of colleges if they can, and if they could win college scholarships, they certainly would not be content with scholarships for unattached students. Therefore unless there is some eleemosynary restric- tion, I do not think that there would be any very large competition for them. And with regard to elee- mosynary restrictions, I confess that my own expe- rience is that, to say the least, they are open to very grave objections. 1950. Will you tell us what have been the evils or difficulties which you have found in the working of it ? — It tends to induce men rather to come to the university, solely because they can get a certain sum of money to support themselves, than to come because they have any fitness or qualification for a university education. 1951. (Prof. Smith.) Are not the eleemosynary exhibitions to which you refer limited to the Princi- pality of Wales — They are. 1952. That has some bearing, has it not, upon the difficulties to which you refer ? — Yes, certainly. 1953. (Dr. Bellamy.) That is to say the area is small ? — Yes; but my own judgment, founded upon a long experience, now is, that an eleemosynary restriction tends to make the area very much smaller still. This is, however, rather a college question than a university one, and I must acknowledge that my opinion on the point is not shared by many of my colleagues. 1954. (Chairman.) Is it your opinion that any considerable proportion of those students might have done better if they had followed other careers and had not come to the university ? — My own opinion is certainly, that in many cases it would have been so. 1955. Has there been airy difficulty in working the test of poverty, that is in finding out what the cir- cumstances were ? — No, I think there has been no difficulty about that, Irut it appears to me that if a test of poverty is to be applied it should be applied in a different form, and probably by a different body of persons from that which applies the test of attainments. The danger when it is applied at the same time and by the same persons is that you make a compromise between the test of poverty and the test of attainment ; and that I think works extremely badly in practice. P 3 118 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. 1956. You think, supposing that there is to he " ' such a class of endowments, it would be better to J, lit ThuTs- ascertain the poverty before they aie admitted to field, Esq., compete ?— Certainly, either by the same body or by a dift'erent one ; rich men should be excluded, but the 27 Oct. 1877. power of exclusion should not be exercised by those who determine the attainment of the candidates. 1957. {Prof. Synith.) That is the plan, is it not, which has been adopted by the university in the case of the Abbott scholarships ?— I think it is so. I can speak very strongly from my own experience of the inexpediency of testing the qualification on the ground^ of poverty, and the qualification on the ground of^ attainment at the same time by the same body. If that difficulty could be got over I do not know that there would be any other strong objection to what I would call eleemosynary endowment to a certain re- stricted extent. _ . . . 1958. Do you not consider that it is a point in favour of eleemosynary endowments, that the pievious education which fits a man to obtain a scholaiship at a college is so costly that a poor man of great ability may really have no chance of a scholarship as against a man who has less natural ability but is the son of wealthy parents ? — Yes, that is a most impoitant point, and certainly in one or two cases in my own experience it has operated extremely well. 1959. {Mr. Bernard.) With respect to the open scholarships in the colleges of the university, are they for the most part, do you think, gained by the sons of rich men ?— I should say I have no right to an opinion on the point, because in my own college we draw our supplies almost exclusively from poor men and from small schools. With regard to my experience of Corpus, at which I was myself a scholar, certainly I was not the son of a rich man, nor do I think that the majority of the scholars were the sons of rich men. 1960. {Prof. Smith.) Were they the sons of men in the same position of life as the commoners ? — I should think they came from the same position of life, but perhaps the larger number were sons of pro- fessional men. Of course some of them come from public schools and rather expensive schools, but the majority of them were the sons of men who, as com- pared with the men who ordinarily send their sons to the university, might certainly be called poor. 1961. {Dr. Bellamy.) They have the stimulus of necessity ? — Yes, decidedly. 1962. {Chairman.) You have a point, I see, as to the desirableness of limiting the competition between colleges in their elections to scholarships; what is your idea with regard to that ? — It seems to me that it has been long a great disadvantage that colleges should be in a position to compete against each other by making their scholarships of a higher value. Col- leges which have funds at their disposal can do it, and I think that scholarships have been raised in various ways by giving certain advantages, such as rooms and tuition, and so forth. Thus both the competition between colleges in that way and the difficulty of establishing any combined system of examination for scholarships is a disadvantage to the university and a disadvantage to the students. A young man coming up to the university may now spend weeks upon weeks in competing for scholarship after scholarship, though it is true that one or two colleges occasionally combine for the purposes of election. If the scholar- ships could be rendered more uniform in value and competed for at more regular and stated times, and if there were only a competition between colleges in respect of their distinction rather than in respect of the sum of money they can grant to their scholars, I think it would be in many respects an advantage. 1963. ( Mr. Bernard.) Is it not tending to become rather an evil that such large sums are now offered by colleges to very young men coming up from schools ? — Yes, I think so. 1964. Does it to your knowledge tend at all to produce expensive habits in those young men ? — Not in my own experience. Of course one cannot exactly tell, but I should be disposed to think there were very few cases were a young man was enabled, without private means, to accumulate a sum of money which would permit him to be very extravagant. 1965. That is not exactly what I meant ; but I suppose the parent of a boy who gets a scholarship, if he is himself either a rich man or not a very poor man, would probably allow his son to have some advantage from the scholarship which he gained, in the way of enjoyment ? — There is a danger, no doubt, that scholarships should fall rather into the hands of the more wealthy than the poorer class. 1966. {Prof. Smith.) Are there not many scholar- ships in the university of tlie value of 100/. a year ? — Yes, I bellve so. 1967. Is it not common for the holder of one of those scholarships to have a school exhibition of 70/. or 80/. a year? — I should have thought that 50/. was about the average of school exhibitions. 1968. Still, there are many young men receiving from exhibitions and scholarships an income amount- ing to 150/.? — Yes. 1969. With regard to the point which you have raised, would you think it desirable that an uniform limit should be fixed, which the scholarships in col- leges should not be allowed to surpass ? — That is a point which requires a great deal of consideration. The tendency of my own opinion, certainly, is in that direction. I could scarcely state it absolutely without considering the other questions which are connected with it, but certainly I think that competition be- tween scholarships of various amounts is an evil, and it tends to encourage colleges to go on bidding. 1970. The schoolmasters complain very much, do they not, of the multiplicity of examinations for scholarships ? — Yes, that is a complaint which I fre- quently hear at Oxford, and I think that there is a very great deal of force in it. 1971. Is there not also one other respect in which the colleges compete with one another in the matter of scholarships to the disadvantage of the university, and that is in the tendency on the part of some col- leges to allow a later limit of age than others do ? — Yes, the age varies, I think, from about 19 to about 23 or 24 in some extreme cases. Some are absolutely unlimited. I believe it would, perhaps, be almost better if the limit were fixed at, say, 24 or 25, so' as to give an opportunity to a man who has acquired his knowledge late in life of competing on fair terms, though it would certainly be desirable, if it were possible, to lower the average age at which young men compete. 1972. Do not you think that anything which tends to raise the average age at which men enter the university is a great evil ? — I should think so, cer- tainly. It has this effect, amongst others, that it loosens our hold on the classes of the country who go to professions and the higher branches of trade. 1973. And the scholarship system in the colleges with the lax restrictions as to age has decidedly the effect of keejoing young men longer at school and bringing them later to the university, has it not ? — Yes, certainly. When 1 came to the university the limit of age at my school was 19, and I found that I came to Oxford about six months in age later than most of my contemporaries in the college, whereas now-a-days, I suppose it is rare for a young man to matriculate under the age of 19. 1974. {Mr. Bernard.) Do not you think that a serious evil ? — A very great evil, and a growing evil. 1975. And this is an evil which could only be met by regulations applicable to all the colleges ? — I should think so certainly. Of course, a single college which in a self-denying manner fixed the limit o f its scholarships to 18, would have very much smaller competition, and would have a great deal of opposition from the masters of schools, though the latter tvould be very glad, no doubt, to send their boys away, on an average, at 18 ; but they would find that the college was practically withdrawn from the general competi- tion unless such a limit were generally agreed upon. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 119 1976. Tliey do not wish, for the most part, to send away their best boys at 18 ? — If they could send all away they would gladly send the best boys away ; but they like to keep them on in order that they may win scholarships and bring reputation to them. 1977. Do you think 18 a good age ? — From 18 to 19 I should think. 1978. (Z>7’. Bellamy.) You found 19 no objection in your own case — No, certainly not. 1979. {Chairman^ The next point is as to the metliod of appointment to professorships and reader- ships ? — That was based again upon the statement of the Flebdomadal Council, who recommend boards to be constructed for that purpose, 1980. Have you anything to suggest about that? — My own impression is that it would be extremely difficult to lay down any general principle as to the construction of such boards. I do not think if a board were to be constructed in general terms as is pro- posed here, that it would be likely to work satisfac- torily in all cases. I should prefer the principle of constructing a board for the special purpose in each case. I think, on the whole, that a board is best, although I suppose anybody who has had much to do with the construction of boards for these purposes knows that any board that might be constructed has its disadvantages, and that there is no security that the best constructed board will act in the best possible way. 1981. Do I understand you to suggest that as each vacancy occurs a special board should be ap- pointed to supply that vacancy ? — No. In the statute appointing and establishing the professorship a board should be constructed according to special considera- tions. 1982. That there should be a separate board for each professorship ? — Yes, a separate board for each pi’ofessorship, certainly. Perhaps I might be allowed to call attention to the last recommendation of the Council, “ In the case of any professorship of which “ the endowment is wholly or mainly supplied by any “ college, it will probably be convenient that the “ college should be represented on the electing board.” 1983. Do you agree with that? — No, I am rather disposed not to agree with it ; it seems rather to proceed upon the assumption that the college having provided an endowment has an interest in the question of the election apart from that of securing the best man. It might possibly be desirable that the college should be requested or instructed to appoint as a member of the selecting board somebody who was well qualified to act as such ; but that a college should have the power of nominating one of its own body, whether he was qualified for that particular function or not, solely because he was supposed to have an interest in the patronage of the appointment, seems to me to be a bad principle to recognise, 1984. {Prof. Smith.) I see that in the case of the professorship of Celtic, founded in 1876 by the prin- cipal and fellows of Jesus College, the college was represented on the board by the principal of the college, and also by a person nominated by Jesus College on account of his proficiency in the study of language and philology ; both the principles to which you have referred were combined, were they not, in that case ?-— Yes, quite so. But I may state with regard to that, as I had a good deal to do as member of the Council at the time being with drafting the statute concerning the Celtic professorship, that it was the original opinion of the Council that the college should nominate one of its own body, and not necessarily that the principal should be cx offico a member of the appointing board. But it was the wish of the college, in which wish I did not myself concur, that it should be represented by the principal ex officio. Certainly I stated, I think, both in the Council and also in the college meeting that discussed the matter that I could not see that a college, solely because it furnished the endowment should put in a claim to exercise any part of the patronage on that ground. In the case of the professorship of Celtic the board is rather constructed on the principle that I ventured to suggest, namely, ad hoc in a special way, and tor a particular purpose ; and there was obviously an appropriateness in a Welsh college, selecting a person who was likely to be acquainted with the special philological subjects connected with the chair. I do not think that any good object was served by the college having the right to nominate another member on the appointing board. 1985. {Chairman.) With regard to residence, is it your opinion that all the professors should be required to reside ? — Not absolutely. If professors are to teach, and to teach continuously, they must be expected also to reside ; but if a professor is to be a professor of research, as it has been termed, if he is required to reside he will have to be paid a very large salary ; whereas if he is not required to reside he may occupy himself in a manner not inconsistent with the object of pursuing his professorship, but which will enable him to increase his income in a variety of ways. Therefore in the case of a professor whom it may be very desirable for a university to have, but for whose teaching there is no very extensive and continuous demand, I think there are reasons why he should be dispensed from the necessity of residence. Again, there are certain subjects which can only be studied in particular places, and there should be very considerable latitude given to professors who happen to have to deal with those subjects, to go to the places where they can most profitably study them. 1986. {Prof. Smith.) What are the subjects to which you refer ? — For instance, the Celtic professor might, I think, under certain circumstances, be al- lowed to study the Celtic languages on the spot, say in Britanny, or Wales, or Ireland, or Scotland. 1987. You would give him leave of absence for a time? — Yes. So again the Anglo-Saxon professor might with great propriety claim to study the Low German dialects and have power so to do. And again, there may be subjects, especially in connexion with natural science, which may be better studied somewhere else than in Oxford. But of course the question of the residence of the professors 'seems to me to depend to a very great extent upon the functions of the professors, and I think the functions of the professors may fairly be varied in accordance with the interests of the university. Some professors may instruct the university rather through studies and through books, and others may find their chief occupation in instructing the students who come here. 1988. {Chairman.) Since you came into the room we have had some papers showing the aiTangements as to the combined lecture which you spoke of put into our hands. I see that in those colleges which you have spoken of as belonging to your com- bination, there are several lectures which seem to be appointed for the same hour on the same day, for instance, three on Aristotle’s Ethics, all on the same day and at the same hour, by three different gentlemen ; they would be for distinct classes of students, I suppose ? — Of course the same student would not need to go to two lectures on the same book of the ethics ; consequently, if it is thought desirable, as the colleges for their own purposes sometimes do, that they should retain a lecture on a particular subject, say the Ethics, then there are two lecturers lecturing on the same subject, and it is quite convenient that the lectures should be given at the same time, because they are not given to the same individual pupils. 1989. There are three such lectures, all on the first book of Ethics, by gentlemen from different colleges at the same hour on the same days ; is it left to each student of all the colleges to choose which of them he will go to ? — It is left to him, with the advice of his tutor; as a matter of fact, only one of those three courses of lectures was actually delivered. 1990. {Prof. Smith.) Can you give us any rough idea of the number of students that attend those three lectures collectively ? — I should think 40 or 50. I have had as a rule about 1 5. P 4 OXFORD. R. Thun- field. Esq., M.A. 27 Oct. 1877. 120 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENOF. OXFORD. J. R. Thurs- fieU, Esq., M.A. 27 Oct. 1877. 1991. {Chairwan.) There is another point in the arrangements which I should like to refer to ; there were three gentlemen lecturing upon the Republic of Plato at the same time on three days in the week, the same daj'S ; of those three gentlemen two lectured on the first book, and the third on the eighth. A student who wished to hear the lecture on the eighth could not do that if he also wished to hear the lecture on the first ? — In all probability the lecture on the eighth book was continued from a previous term, and there- fore students who were attending that particular course would not wish to go to a fresh course from a new teacher on the first book. 1992. I observe that at the same hour On three days in the week which is taken for this lecture on Plato, the professor of logic gives a lecture ; gentle- men wishing to attend the logic lecture cannot also attend the lecture in Plato ? — That was a defect in the arrangements, certainly. 1993. Is care taken as far as possible to avoid such defects ? — Yes. 1994. It is not left to the different lecturers to fix without previous concert, the hours of lecturing? — No, the lecturers hold a meeting once a term, generally speaking about three weeks before the close of the term, and in the first place they consider what lectures are needed, or what lectures are offered. One of their number acts as secretary, and he summons the meet- ing, and takes down the general scheme, and he does his best to bring it into harmony. If he finds that any lectures which the same students would be anxious to attend are likely to clash, he tries to make such a re-arrangement as will obviate that difficulty. 1995. According to this particular arrangement, all the students in Plato are entirely excluded from logic ? — It seems so, and I should call that a defect in the arrangements. 1996. {Dr. Bellamy.') They may have had their logic lecture in the previous year, may they not ? — Yes, they may have had it in the previous year. 1997. {Prof. Smith.) Do you not think that if there are only 50 men attending the three ethic lec- tures, there is a certain waste of force in having three different ethic lectures ? — Undoubtedly in my own opinion, but that is what one might call a remnant of the old college system. No college, I think you would find, if you examined the lists of our association, or of the other association, likes to give up the instruction of its own students in ethics. 1998. If this list were laid before you as purporting to be a complete course of instruction for the Honour School in Literae Humaniores, it would strike you as being very deficient would it not ? Is there not a want of lectures upon some of the more difficult books ? For example, there are no lectures either upon the text or upon the subject-matter of such difficult books as the letters of Cicero ? — Certainly. 1999. I call your attention to that which that list appears to me to show (and I would ask your opinion whether it is so) the faults that are attributed to the combined system of lectures, that there is a redun- dancy of instruction upon some subjects and a deficiency of instruction in others ?- — Yes, that is quite true ; the fact is that this is only a terminal list. I am disposed to think that the beginning of the academical year for Instruction in the Literae Humaniores School is to a certain extent changing owing to the reduction in the limit time at which men can go in both for modera- tions and the final school. I think that the normal period of instruction as naturally begins now after Christmas as after the long vacation: but I quite acknowledge the force of your criticism. It is certainly the case that the scheme of lectures for the present term is deficient, and I cannot account for it, except that it is possible that some of the lecturers who generally provide for the missing subjects are holding back till after Christmas. 2000. {Dr. Bellamy.) It does not show the number of lectures given to the honour men in the colleges separated ? — No, certainly not ; it only shows the joint system to which each member of each college can go, but each college further provides private instruction. 2001. {Chairman.') Is the list of the other com- bination published in the same way ? — It is not published in the “ Gazette,” I believe, but it is circu- lated among the tutors and undergraduates of the colleges which belong to the association. The other association does not make this list public in any other way than printing it for the use of the members of the colleges to w'hich it applies, but copies of it can be easily obtained. 2002. May I ask with respect to logic, whether the explanation which you have just now suggested as a possible one has reference to any particular lecturer ? — I understood you to say that it was the professor of logic who was lecturing in logic, but that does not seem to be the case I think that the arrangement by which Mr. Wilson’s pupils cannot go to a lecture on Plato, and the pupils in Plato cannot go to logic, is a bad one. 2003. {Dr. Bellamy.') This course is filled up with strictly college lectures, is it not ? — Y"es, I suppose so ; each lecturer only offers a certain amount of work to the association. When I was a college tutor I found it most convenient to lecture at 10 o’clock, which gave me two more hours for my work in the college. 2004. {Chamnan.) In this list there are eight lectures at 10, four at 11, and three at 12 o’clock ? — Yes, that is so. 200.5. {Mr. Bernard.) I ought to have asked you this question at an earlier stage of your examination. Y’’ou know the subjects specified by the Board of Studies for the classical school as subjects for which j)ublic teaching in the university is required in the report sent in by the board you see a number of subjects enumerated ; as a teacher, do you think that providing public instruction in some or all of those subjects (I will not ask you to say all, because it would require a minute examination,) would be of real service to study and teaching in the university ? — With regard to the existing condition of the schools, a great many of them would be outside the range, I think. 2006. I will ask you whether, notwithstanding that, you think it would be any real service to study and teaching in the university ? — Yes, I am rather disposed to think it would be of service to the study and teaching in the university, as making the subject of classical knowledge more or less complete ; but with regard to the existing condition of the schools, which is really all that the Board of Studies is asked to s|)eak of, I should be disposed to think that some of the recommendations would have very little direct, though a good deal of indirect, influence upon the examination. 2007. {Chairman.) For example, nearly all the subjects enumerated under the head of philology would be outside the curriculum, almost everything except the Greek dialects and the Greek and Latin metres, would they not ? — Textual criticism, I should think, not entirely. 2008. {Prof. Smith.) Would ancient law and ancient inscriptions be wholly outside the curriculum ? — Certainly not. 2009. Or the public economy of ancient states ? — No ; decidedly not. 2010. {Mr. Bernard.) The question, however, which I wished to ask was whether you thought, apart from the examinations, it would be of service to study and teaching in the university ? — I must say I certainly think it would. 2011. {Prof. Smith.) Y’’ou think it important that a high level of knowledge in respect of classical subjects should be maintained in the university, do you not ? — Very emphatically so. 2012. And you consider that if that high level is not maintained the study of classical antiquity under the present condition of things in England may decline and die away ? — Certainly. 2013. Do you think on the whole, or do you not think that the proposals of the Board of Studies, which, as you have admitted, go considerably beyond the UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION : 5IINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 121 requirements of t!ie Scliool of Literie Humaniores would tend to maintain the knowledge of ant (luity at a higii level in the university ? — '>^ery decidedly. 1 took a considerable part, as you yourself no doubt recollect, in the drawing up of this particular report. Tlie Board of Studies of the School ol' Literoe Iluma- niores has expressed views with which I have a strong general sympathy', and I ccriainly think that for the general welfare of the university and for the interests of study and knowledge in the place to aim at any- thing very much less than is here recommended would not be desirable, in fact would be very undesir- able. I should like, if 1 might, before concluding my evidence, just to call the attention of the Commission to two suggestions in this document, which, though connected with what I have already said, I have not ])reviously mentioned. Tire first runs thus ; “ We “ would further suggest that an university in which “ classical learning has so large a ])lace should be OXFORD. “ ])rovided with, a museum of classical archa3ology — ^ — “ and art, ^vithout which such studies cannot be J- lj- Ihurs- “ successfully prosecuted.” I certainly think that is an extremely important point. It is a point in which the universliy contrasts very unfavourably 27 Oct. 1877. with most imiver.dties with which I atn acquainted. I believe the suggestion has also been adopted as a recontmendation by the Council itself. \\ ith regard to the last chinse in the report, I think that that also is very important: “We think that the university “ should retain a power of not filling up professor- “ ships or readerships in the event of suitable “ candidates failing to appear.” The Celtic professor- ships’ statute is the first statute which contained a clause to that effect, and it is one which I think might with advantage be adopted in the case of all statutes drawn uj) for future professorships The witness withdrew. Bonamy Price, Esq., M.A., ('Professor of Political Economy,) examined. B. Price, Esq., 2014. {Chair nuiu,') I understand that you wish to refer to some passages in your published jianqihlet ; perhaps you will have the kindness to take them in the order in which you are disposed to deal with them, w itheut any questions from me ? — I did not wish to obtrude myself a second time, as I have already had my fling beflre the public; but I shall be glad to be able to make some exjilana- tions upon two points. Tho first wuis that 1 was represented often in the ])ress as wishing to de- velop the ]irofessorial system at the expense of the tutorial. That was a radical misconception of my idea. My idea is to have a graduated profession composed of both classes, and that wdiether the pro- fessors are called prol’e.'Sors or senior teachers or by any other name does not matter, but ihat it should be a jircgressive advancing ])Vofession from the time a young man enters the teaching department to the time when it is time for b.im to retire. Therefore there was no design in my mind to substitute the present professors in any wmy at the expense of the tutors, but to fuse them djwn into one system. 2015. In what manner would yon combine the two .systems and regulate their relations to each other ? — I’he professors should be the senior men in a common profession. The j.articular mode of their relation of senior to junior wmuld be rather the work of a great number of minds than of a single person; but the object of my pamphlet was to lay before the ])i;blic what I consider to be tlic fundamental vice of the system of Oxford. I cannot help feeling that it is the worst organised educational institution in the whole world for teaching purposes. 2016. Can you in a few' words state what the fundamental vice is to which you refer ? — Yes; that there is no academical motive for the teachers to advance and improve after tliey have once become tutors. The members of every other profession have strong motives to become more efficient, because they have more influence and power in their sphere, and more rcw'ard for tlieir exertions in proportion to their efficiency. The Oxford tutor begins at his best, in point of rew'ard, at the age of 2.5 ; he has no motive wdiatever for academical inqu'ovement, and at the age of 3.5 he is beginning to be superseded by' others. There is no career for him. 2017. 1 understand you to say that it w’as not your intention to suggest that that evil should be remedied by suppressing tlie collegiate system ? — Certainly not. The collegiate system is the very essence of th.e uni- versity of Oxford. I do not stand' on the details of the scheme wliich I put forward, but the plan wdiich I have suggested wmiild not impair the collegiate system one tittle more than the combined college system does. 2018. Will you in a few words state what w'as the plan which you suggested ? — In order to have a graduated profession, you must have the power of rewarding, and I can conceive of no other system under wdiich it could be done than that the students shotdd belong to the university and not to the col- leges. I would not impair their ])ersonal relations with the colleges in any way whatever ; but as to the teaching maciiinery', I think it should belong to the university', wdth the fees. 2019. You think that the wdiole of the teaching machinery should be supplied by the university ? — 1 do. 2020. For classmen and [lassmcn ? — For classmen and passmen. 2021. And that all the tuition fees should be paid into the university chest ? — That most of the tuition fees should be paid into the university chest. 1 do not make a point of that as one of c.sscncc, but I cannot find funds I’or effecting mv jmrposc in providing re- wards in any other way', if you ti.ke the school- master’s profession, a person who goes on well in that profession becomes head master of this place or the other; he has a great career before him, and he advances to a deanery or a bishopric, having hefore him every' motive for progress. But y'our unfortrnate Oxford te.tor gets his 800/. or 900/. a year at the best at 2.5 y'ears of age, and he gets nothing more. 2022. .Supjiosing that your scheme wore adopted, and that all tlie teaching were assumed by' the uni- versity ami all the fees paid to the university, how would you provide for the gradation of orders of teachers and for their ascent to the high rewards which you think desirable ?— -I do not like the word “ professors,” and I am obliged to use it faiitc dc viicax ; but I should have different ranks of teachers, professors and sub-professor..;. 2023. {Dr. Brllamy.) Readers ? — I have no ob- jection at all to readers, but that w'ould not solve the problem. The readership does not furnish a career in itself, because it does not provide an ade- quate reward. If you want to keeji able men as teachers, you must give them the means of obtain- ing something more than 600/. or 700/. a year for life. 2024. {Chairman.) Could y'ou jirovide icwards which would compete with those ofi’ered elsewhere, the head masterships of large schools, for example — 1 think you could do a great deal. Savigny refused to be a cabinet minister at Berlin, because he could not afford it ; the reward that he got for teaching pupils was so great that he declined the po.st on that ground. The advantage to Prussia w'as this ; that she had th.e first scientific lawyer in Europe at that time actually' teaching lier young men. 2025. 13o you know what emolument he was re- ceiving ? — I do not. 2026. {Mr. Bernard.) It is the case, is it not, that a very eminent professor, with a class of one or tw'o hundred men, may' receive more than a minister of the German Government ? — I should think is it very M.A. Q 6223. Q 122 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — AIINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. probable. I know that a distinguished teacher at ^ Cambridge got 4,000/ a year. He was a great niatlie- ^ ' teacher, and turned out a p'eat many senior ' wranglei s ; but he held that position on tlie tenure 37 Oct. 1877. he must be abreast of the mathematics of the world, and therefore he was a great mathematical student, and the men who gave him these 4,000/. a year had the very best teaching that could bo got. 2027. (Chairman.) They were private pupils? — They were private pupils. That is one form of the machinery. The great thing is first the diagnosis of the malady, and then the application of the remedy. It is a phenomenon which is showing itself very markedly here, that the better men leave because there is no sufficient reward for them here, and those who stay here are being gradually superseded in value, both to themselves ami to the university, and are ])ushed out by younger men. The result is that the examinations and the standard of knowledge is the standard of young men, and the man who improves himself is not wanted ; his knowledge is in the way it is not wished for ; it is a nuisance. I hold that in a great university that is one of the greatest flaws you could possibly have. 2028. Do you think the fact that a ]irivate tutor in mathematics at Cambridge could make 4,000/. a year, and that it could not be done at Oxford, is at all due to the system of the Cambridge examinations, which arranges candidates in the exact order of merit ? — No, I do not think it is due to their being arranged in the exact order of merit, but to the fact that the examiners are themselves of the highest order of merit. The standard is laid down hy mathematicians who have the highest knowledge of the subject, sucli as Mr. Hopkins and iVIr. Routh. Tluit is a healthy system. It is true that there are instances of a healthy system here. For example, a distinguished teacher, who had had a long and successful experience in an important station away from Oxford, and had worked under the strongest imj)ulses to improve his efficiency in his profession hecame the head of a col- lege in the university. To this office he superadded the function of tutor, taking a j>art in the combined college tuition. This is a continuous and progressive career in teaching. The two offices together may be regarded as the well-earned reward of long professional progress, whilst the students have the benefit of ripened teaching. 2029. Do you mean that he has a further income from his teaching in addition to that which he receives as head of his college? — Yes, he is official tutor in the college. I only instance him as a successful man for the pur[)oses of the university. 2030. I suppose the aggregate of his emoluments would not be equal to what he received before he returned to Oxford, would it ? — No; it is not. 2031. (Ah’, hernard.) His classes are ver^' large indeed, are they not? — Very large. Then, again, the Oxford scientific men, are, as a rule, on a level with any in England, and the pupils that go to them have the best teaching in England. There is scarcely a better geologist in England than Mr. Frestwich. But science is not the great corpus of the university; it is not the heart of the place, though those students have a teacher of the highest excellence. Then, again, you have such a man as Dr. Liddon. Dr. Liddon, on becoming Canon of St. Paul’s, retained the pro- fessorship of exegesis at Oxford. He has a large class, which is taught b^y a person u ho is a thorough student of the Greek Testament; but it is not academical, it is extra-academical altogether. It is tlvj Lisheps who send the students to him, and it is for the purpose of their profession that they hear him. His teaching is highly efficient; I have mentioned these three persons with the sole object of showing that we have here at Oxford remarkable examples of a right teaching- career, in which senior men, compared with ycung tutors, impart to Oxford students the highest pro- fessional knowledge. On the other hand, if you go to the common college tutor, he begins at 25 and he gets his 600/. or 700/. or 800/. a year, and there is nothing more for him to obtain except a few odd prizes now and then, such as the headship of a house that is vacant. Such a man is on the look-out to leave Oxford, and if he stays, what is the result ? That the younpr men get hold of the examinations, and this man’s advanced knowledge, if he has worked, is a thing not in demand. Himee the country is injured the students are injured, ever 3 body'’ is injured, and most of all, the tutorial class are injured. So far from my being hostile to them, on the contrary it is their welfare that I am most eager to promote. 2032. (Chairman.) How w-ould you provide a remedy for those evils which you describe? — If the college fees were at the disposal of the university you could get a gradation of incomes, with large ones at the end. I would venture to suggest a plan which was very successful at Rugby, namely, that (within limits) the student who pays the fees should have the choice of his subprofessor, so that a good subprofessor, just like a leading barristei-, in proportion to his ability and knowledge and experience, would get a larger income, and he would ultimately reach the higher stage of senior- teacher and have the control of the examinations, or a large part of it. 2033. That is to say, that each student should be able to carry his fees to any professor whose classes he wished to attend? — Y"es, in that department. But I think that no single mind would be able to oi-ganise the details of the scheme, and it would require the co- operation of many minds. I care more to jroint out the end to be aimed at. My details are very impei-fect ; they are only the details as they occur to a single’ mind. But I know that that sort of motive is capable of bringing to Oxford residents of the very highest oi'der, as iir the case of Mr-. Frestwich, as in the case of Dr. Odling, and so on. I feel persuaded that unless some such plan is adopted the univei-sity will deteriorate; it is deteriorating now, and it will deteriorate more, because the attractions of life are increasingly numerous. When I was a young man, very few went to the schools; now the schools are getting very abundant, and they afford varied posi- tions, in which men can marry and obtain good incomes, and have the power of accumulating both knowledge and income: all that is absolutely want- ing to the young Oxford student of 25. 2034. Is it an essential part of your scheme that the student should be able to select his own teacher in the particular subject, and to carry to that teacher the fees which he pays ? — That is one of my sugges- tions. 2035. Supposing that were not a part of the scheme, are you quite satisfied that the difference in working would be more than a nominal one, if the university undertook to supply all the instruction for all classes of students ?— 1 take it that if the university suj)plied it they would he practically the same men who now man the university, only their positions would be different. I think you must have graduated incomes according to success, and there must be some criterion of that. If you do not adopt success as one of your criteria, I think you would go to sleep. 2036. What other criterion would you suggest besides that which you have already mentioned ?-— I sliould have different posts, avowedly given to effi- ciency, the apj)ointments being made by a proper board of nominators. 2037. What would be the criterion of efficiency, if you had not competition ? — I referred to competition as the best of all criteria. 2038. So I understood ; but you said that you did not consider that indispensable ? — No ; because I con- sider that a great number of minds working together would find a machinery of that sort that would produce progress. 2039. Can you suggest anj- other criterion except rei)utation ? — I think firmly that if once you had a body of electors or nominators who thoroughly con- ceived the spirit of the institution, ymu might then trust them for a great deal. 2040. You would place great confidence in the UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 123 iuclgment of a board of electors ? — Yes, after a time, i do not believe that in Prussia you would have ineffi- cient tnen made teacliers. 2041. In a society such as the university must always be, composed of residents who are acvpiainted with each other, would there not be a tendency to promote men of merit, though not perhaps of pre-eminent success, from motives of what may be called per- sonal Influence ? — All that is perfectly true, and that is human nature ; but that is not the reason why we should cry defeat, and not fight against it ; we shonld try to organise the system on the same healthy basis on which other professions are organised. At Rugby, for instance, there was a great difference in the estimation in which the masters and the houses were held, and the difference of income was very large between a popular private tutor and one who was not thought much of. 2042. That arose from the power of competition ? — Yes, I believe in that more than in any other principle ; hut if the place was thoroughly saturated with the right spirit, I should still have great con- fidence in the electors. 1 might remark that 1 do not conceive that the college system wotdd be in the least impaired by it. 2043. (Prof. Smith.) That is a point upon which we should be glad to have some explanation, be- cause it has appeared to some of us that unless the tuition fund was left as it is, entirely, or almost entirely at the disposal of the colleges, the college system of instruction would be broken uj) ? — The college system of instruction is not the same thing as the college system. A man who goes to Mr. Prestwich or a man who goes to you has not lost his college or his college life. 2044. I understand that you would propose to remove the instruction from the control of the colleges ; but then what function would you leave to the colleges I believe the sub[)rofessors would all be fellows of colleges, much in the same relation as they are now under the comhined college system. 1 do not want all the money to go fiom the colleges. For domestic regulations, for internal college regulations, I should be perfectly willing that there should be proper officers appointed, *and that would be quite sufficient to main- tain the college feeling. 2045. (Chairmcm.) Deans and censors ? — Yes. 2046. {Dr. Bcl/amj/.) And tutors too ? — And tutors too. I do not want to injure the college system. I should like to call Lord Selborne’s attention to a great difference between his time and mine, and the present day. In our day there were two or three colleges unconnected with schools and all sorts onimitations on the foundations ; the responsibility of a great col- lege of this kind to keep up its tutors to its standard was enormous, and the college was known by its tutors. But the combined system (which I am not finding fault with) has suppressed that to a considerable extent ; you do not ask what the tutors of a college are, but what the combined teachers are, and the result is a very great diminution of the moral pressure uj)on the tutors to im])rovc themselves. Formerly the men of Oriel and the men of’ Balliol, and so on, felt enormously the weight of the responsibility of maintaining their reimtations in the university, and the influence of this feeling was very great. 2047. {Chairman.) Why should that feeling be diminished under the combined system ? — Because in the combined system there is a great number of teachers, and the individual does not appear. 2048. He appears, of course, to the extent to which he takes a part in the combined teaching ? — There were four college tutors in our day, and I daresay a combined college system means 10 or 12 or 14. It means the teaching resources of three or four colleges put together. Therefore the personal pressure is very much less, I conceive, than it was then, although many of the colleges were very badly officered. 2049. Would the personal pressure be less upon those gentlemen who take part in the combined system ? — I believe it is. I do not hear tutors spoken of personally as tutors in the way the old tutors were. 2050. {J)r. Bellamy.) You mean that under the combined system a college does not feel so absolutely bound to have good tutors, because it can get for its men good instructions from other colleges ? — I meant that the tutorial position was not so responsible a position, and therefore not so likely to make a man advance as he did under the old system. Allow me to remark upon another distinction between the former time and the present, and that is the great deteriora- tion of the viva voce system of examination. That I conceive to be a great calamity, though perhaps it may he the regret of an old man ; but I have been teaching all my life and I think I have had some experience in the matter. In our day, if you re- member, the viva voce counted for at least one half in getting the class. If an honour man was examined the schools were crowded ; hut the great point was that the examiners themselves were made known to the university, and that a living interest was taken as to who they were, as to their manner of thinking, and so on. There was a great intellectual movement going on in the university connected with those examiners. I believe that the question who the examiners are is at the present day a matter of little importance ; the important matter is what the papers are, and the difference personally to them is immense. With respect to the viva voce there is according to my ideas an enormous deficiency in the present system as compared with the old one. If you want to examine a man thoroughly, and thoroughly to test his knowledge of his subject, put him before an able examiner for an hour’s viva voce in that subject. The effect is tremendous. If the examiner knows his work he searches the man, and explores him, and finds him out ; and it is not the discovery that is the point, but it is the antecedent effort that the man must have made to stand such an ordeal as that, and therefore to obtain a thorough mastery of the subject; not necessarily the power of writing essays about it, but the thorough mastery of the subject that they had in the olden days. The paper questions, and nothing but the paper (piestions, enable a man to write a good deal that is conventional. For instance, take my own subject, if I examined a man in political economy he might be able to write on paper whole books about political economy, but if I had him for a quarter of an hour in viva voce, and he had not thoroughly mastered those subjects he would be found out. The difference therefore in the mode of study is immense. 2051. {Earl of Rcdesdulc.) You mean that a man examined on paper examines himself? — Quite so. A man examined on paper writes cleverly, and he writes what is in the books, but he does not necessarily write with a knowledge of his subject, and it is very difficult to find that out in the papers. In ma- thematics of course you get the right answer. 2052. {Chairman.) I suppose that really the dif- ference is this, is it not, that on paper you can have only a limited number of questions, and you cannot cross-examine 1 — Quite so, and you cannot bring out the points that you want to know. A man may use phrases whic;h are very common in political economy, and it may he very doubtful indeed whether he knows the simple facts that underlie them. 2053. {Mr. Bernard.) Perhaps you would say that by examining on paper it is not quite so easy to find out what a man knows as it is to find out what he does not know? — Of course if the object of examina- tion be to find out Avhat he does not know, the viva voce examination is much the- severer process : but if men had to be examined before me as a viva voce examiner they would have no chance of bringing me pages of mere jargon. If a man knows his subject and 1 know my business, he and I get on capitally well together. My object is not to find out his ignorance, but to find out whether or not he is master of his subject and has got hohl of it. 2054. Probably your experience as an examiner would coinc.de with mine (which has been not incon- Q 2 OXFORD. B. Price, Esq., M.A. 27 Oct. 1877. 124 ITNIYERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. B. Price, Esq., M.A. 27 Oct. 1877. siclerable), that you may frequently in vied voce exa- mination strike and pursue a vein of knowledge in your candidate that you would never discover by paper work ? — Certainly ; and if the man follows you in that direction, and brings in illustrations and shows familiarity with other parts of the subject, tlicn you have a very good impression of what he lias in th.at subject. I may mention upon that very point that at the Ecole Polyteclmique in France, even in mathe- matics they used always to examine viva voce ; I do not know wlietlier they do so now. 2055. {Prof. Smith.) I think that has now dis- ajipeared from tlieir system ? — I am not aware. 2056. (4/r. Bernnrd.) Going back for a moment, I was not quite satisfied that 1 understood your scheme of gradation. You proposed to have three classes of teachers, with the j)rofessors at tlie top, did you not ? — Yes. The only thing I c'are about (and I submit it to other people to settle) is that there should be advancing stages, and motives for the teachers to improve themselves. 2057. You propose to have three stages? — Yes, I think so. 2058. Three stages of increasing dignity we will say ? — Yes, and of increasing pay. 2059. The point about which I wished to be in- formed was how you would secure the increasing stages of emolument ? — I think there is plenty of money in the fees ; the fees are sufficient now ; they are not found unsatisfactory. 2060. As I understand you, you think that the best teachers under a perfectly free system will secure the largest number of pupils ? — Tn the long run I do. 2061. And therefore the largest amount of pay ? — - And therefore the largest amount of [)a\'. 2062. Y'hat then would prevent the largest number of pupils and the largest quantity of pay from going to persons in the lowest stage or the second stage of your gradation and not finding its way to the persons in the highest, if it happened that the i)ersons in the lower stages acquired a greater reputation for good teaching ? — I think that if the s}'stem were so con- structed and tooli root that the more able men ap- peared at the top and had a great voice in the examinations, and that they Avere therefore in that sense the ultimate judges of Avhat the standard should be and how it should be kept up, that would jiervade the whole system and would ultimately bring to the fore the able men. 2063. It would have made no difference to the Cambridge tutor you referred to whether you called liim a professor or a tutor ? — Not the slightest. 2064. If he had remained a tutor and there had been a whole hierarchy of university^ officials above him, he would nevertheless have got more than any of them ? — Y es, Mr. Hopkins was like a great barrister ; he was an operator to Avhom men Avent to be manufactured into senior wranglers and high AAU-anglers. There were a great number of competitors for that position, and he Avas confessedly the best ; and the point was that the university got the best teaching and a very liigh standard of mathematics. 2065. What should prevent a j)rofessor who had found his Avay to the top of your hierarchy from finding Iiimself a very dignified person, but Avith feAv pupils attending him and very small emoluments ? — That is not at all impossible, but you must trust to moral forces, whereas under the present system you have certainly a most disastrous state of things; it cannot possibly he worse, I conceiA'e, than it is at present ; you stri]) a young man of 25 or 35 of all academical motive to improve himself, and anything is better than that. 2066. You mentioned to us just noAv an eminently successful teacher at Oxford Avho obtained large classes ; Avhat is there to prevent any other man who takes part in tuition from attaining the same eminence and the same success ? — The answer to that is this ; in the case that I mentioned the tutorial stipend is fixed, and it would be naturallyinadcquatc ; but it is combined Avith another income draAvn from another source, merely looking at it as regards income. Here is a man Avho has every (pialification for doing that Avork as avcH as anv man th.at could bo found in Knglan'l ; the tutorial fee is made(iuat(! am! insufficient, and it i.s supplemented by emoluments from another source; I quite admit that it is an unconnected source ; it is a chance, but still the result is satisfactory. 2067. So far as the income from tuition fees goes there is irothing to prevent any man Avho takes part in tuition from attaining the same pecuniary success, is there ? — Not the least ; but then the tuition moitey is a fixed sum ; it may be some 400.k, or somethiiAg of tiiat sort ; it is not a variable sum except to a small extent under the comlriued system. lie has 400/. a year, I suppose, as tutor, Avhich is the ordinary tutoiial fee; but if there Avere many posilions of that sort Avherc a man could be tutor, any other source whatever supplying as a su|)plemcnt to the tuition a position, then my great aim Avould be achieved ; Avhereas at present he may have 400/. a year, and 200/. or 300/. a year from his felloAv- ship ; say that he makes up 800/., that is not a provi- sion for life for an eminent man — he Avill not staj^ here and mari’y and have a large family upon it. 2068. {Prof. Smith.) I think one ditfrcidty is to see hoAv the plan which you propose gives him any secu- rity Avhatever. You propose a system Avhich is really more or less a voluntary one ; I confess I am afraid that the older man would very frequently in that contest be beaten by the younger, and that his latter state Avould be Avorse than his first ; hoAV Avould you deal Avith that difficulty? — A bad master empties a school. That is one of the difficulties inherent in human life, and you cannot get rid of it. 2069. May I direct your attention to the fact that much of the Avork of this univerisity is very lieavj'-, and in jiarticular the work of the examinations is so. An examiner in the final classical school has to Avork very hard for a month together: he has to read 100 jrerhaps long ethic papers all through. I do not see hoAv you can ever prevent the control of examina- tions of that kind from falling into the hands of men Avho are still quite in the vigour of youth. It is a difficulty to me to see Iioav you can ever give to the older men an efiective control over the details of such examinations? — For the greater number, the passmen, that Avould be comparatively very easy ; you might for the passmen liave the junior men to do that. It was not found difficult in the old days, nor were the examiners pressed that I am aware of, except for a short time. There was much less pajier work. 2070. {Dr. Bellamt/.) The numbers ivere very much smaller ? — The numbers Avere very much smaller, no doubt. 2071. And the college tutors Avere less Avorked ? — The college tutors Avere not so hard Avorked. I do not say that there are not very considerable difficulties on all these points, but those difficulties are as nothing compared Avith the difficulties that exist to-day, as I conceive. 2072. {Mr. Bernard.) We have in the university some twenty or more yAOsitions of considerable dignity and emolument; is it not to be desired and hoped that those positions should in the long run be, even more than they are noAV, the rcAvards of literary and scientific eminence ? — I believe that that would necessarily be so if a system full of life existed. 2073. You are aAvare that for one of those positions, and that, in yroint of emolument, one of the least valu- able, one very eminent and successful head master lias exchanged his head mastership ? — Certainly, but I do not quite see the bearing of that. 2074. I merely mean that Ave have some material here for supplying that advancement which you so much desire? — I think so. I am quite sure that it Avould act Avhen once the system had taken root, just like bishoyrrics in the Church. The witness withdrcAV, UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION :UlNUTES OF EVIDENCE, 125 The Rev. G. G. Bkadlev, M.A., (Master of Unl/ersity College,) examine:!. 2075. (C/iairman.) It will be convenient, I think, that I should ask 3 ’ou questions from the notes which you have been so good as to funush. i'drst, with regard to the college system, we have had some opinions expressetl tending to this conclusion, that the higher instructions should be taken out of the hands of the colleges, and assumed entirely by tlie university in fact for all honour students. Rerhaps you will have tiie goodness to tell us your opinion as to the college system ? — The college system exists, and it is impossible to destroy it. I should be very sorry to see any tiling done that would impair its elhciency, and I should feel that removing all the higher teach- ing from tlie college tutors would be a very great blow to their position. I am quite prepared for a very much larger share of the work being assigned to the ])rofessors than at present, but [do not quite see what the position of a college tutor would bo if all the higher work was taken from him, or how the colleges could exist for any good purpose. A large number of young men living together and presided over by a tutor who had nothing to do with their intellectual life, which this proposal seems to ms to point to, would very soon, I think, degenerate into a club of young men with no peo])Ie of influence or authority living amongst them. In such a case I hardly know what the posiiion of the tutors would be, or what would be left for them to do, if the whole of the higher teaching, that which brings them en rapport with the intellect and thoughts of the young men, more especially the ablest and leading young men in the colleges, were taken from them. 2076. What in your opinion are the advantages, moral and intellectual, of the college system as it now exists? — As it now exists the tutor gives a great deal, sometimes an enormous, and, perhaps, even sometimes an undue amount of superintendence to the work of the young men in the colleges. Trivate tuition is in a great degree disajrospect of advancement to teachers in Oxford ? — I shoiild very much like to see a system both of professors and of university readers introduced. At present the professors are very much out of the system of teaching; they have no voice in the appointment of the examiners, or in the conduct of the examination ; their own appointment also is in various hands ; and they have, J am sorry to say, accepted a tradition that they have to give their lec- tures at inconvenient hours, which also diminishes their connexion with the system. 2094. {Prof. Smith.) Would you explain that more clearly? — It is supposed that the college lectures have the first claim on an undergraduate’s time, and that a professor should not lecture between ten o’clock and one, but that he should lecture in the afternoon, or at hours that [)robably are equally inconvenient to him- self and to the students who attend them. That is a sort of key, I think, to their position ; they are looked upon as a little outside the system of teaching, instead of being its crowning and culminating point, as I .diotdd wish to see them. 2095. {Mr. Bernard.) I myself never lectured after one o’clock ; but, if that be as you say, do you think it is the fault of the jirofessors ? — Not in the least; I am not blaming the professors at all, but it is a symbol of how the college lecturers have put them into a siding, so to speak. 2096. {Chairman.) Is it not an evil in the system that the hours should be so limited that the only prac- ticable and available time is from ten o’clock to one ? — 1 think that if undergraduates attend a large number of lectures between the hours of nine and one, it is difficult for them to give their full attention at any other hours unless through a great part of the year they begin again late in the afternoon. I myself give a lecture at five o’clock, and I have no difficulty at all in doing that. 2097. {Prof. Smith.) Is it a large lecture? — No, but I have given a lecture to between 20 and 30 men from various colleges at that time, and it was attended very ch.eerfully. 2098. Is the hour of nine o’clock freely used in the combined system with which you are connected? — Not freely. It should be used more, I think. 2099. Uo you not think it a great evil that the instruction in the university should not begin regu- larly at nine o’clock ? — It is a great evil. I think it most discreditable that a young man should not be able to receive instruction at nine o’clock. 2100. {Chairman.) You have noted that you would suggest that the professors should choose their own hours in the morning ; supposing that they chose the same hours wliich are occupied by the college tutors, or by the lecturers under the combined collegiate system, how would it work ? — If the professors were by other means brought into closer connexion with the work of the undergraduates, then I think the claim of the professors to those hours would be both theoretically and practically recognised. If their num- ber was reinforced by a good selection of university readers, who would hold an intermediate position and form a link between them and the college teachers, and if those readers and the ])rofessors gave, I need not say, good lectures at those hours, I think they would hold their own against us the college teachers. 2101. Then would you give the option to the stu- dents to go either to the college tutor or to the pro- fessor ? — 1 have not quite made up my mind whether compulsoi'y attendance on a professor’s lectures should be enforced, but I would give every encouragement to their going to (he professors’ lectures. 2102. You must have compulsory attendance upon the one or the other, must you not ? — Yes, to some extent. 2103. If you had compulsion as to the college tutor, and not as to the professor, what would be the working of that ? — It is very difficult to predict, but I think that if the body of professors were, as I saj', recruited by the appointment of readers, who would still remain connected with the colleges, it would be more easy than it is at present to enforce attendance on the lectures of university teachers. 2104. Would those readers supersede the combined system of collegiate teaching or not ? — They would UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 127 not, I tliink, entirely supersede it, because it would be as a combined lecturer that the future reader in bis capacity of teacher would make liis mark. I think that the two would go on side by side. 2105. Would you wish that he should be capable of filling both jiositions at once ?— Ves. I think he might remain associated with the college ; I think it exceedingly important that he should act, not as a tutor, but as a lecturer to the college. He would have, I think, to withdraw largely from private work, but he would remain as a lecturer of the college ; he would not, strictly speaking, belong to the combined lecture list. On our combined lecture list we enter the names of the professors, as a matter of course. 210G. [Dr. BclUiwy.) You give room for them in point of time ? — Certainly. Supposing, for instance, that any gentleman in my own college wished to attend Professor Palmer’s lectures, there would be no feel- ing at all against it ; quite the reverse. 2107- (Prof Smith.') If the readership were not tenable together with a college office, such as a tutor- shij) or a lectureship, it u ould entirely fail to supply the kind of promotion and advancement which you desire, would it not ? — Yes ; I should very much wish for the sake of the college, and for the sake of the reader himself, on both instructional and financial grounds, that he should remain a member of the college. 2108. I think I also understood your meaning to be that by retaining his connexion with his college his prospects of having a large class in the university would be materially increased ? — No, I did not mean that. 1 think no one would be appointed who had not shown a power of attracting by his teaching, but I think, when once appointed as reader, that he would be bound by his position to admit men from every college in Oxford, on payment of a fee, no doubt; and therefore he would not belong strictly speaking to the condiined lecture list. 2109. {Chairman.) Supposing that plan to be in operation, would it not be inevitable that the two systems must be organised together ? — I hope so. I hope that it would introduce more organisation into the combined lecture system. 2110. How do you think that organisation might be obtained, assuming that the college tutors under the combined system were not also themselves the readers ? — 1 should hope that a committee would be appointed (it might even, I think, be done now,) of those readers who would still be connected with the college and of one or two college lecturers, who should have plenary powers to organise those lectures, and to say to a young tutor, “ You had better not “ give a lecture upon a very difficult subject until “ you have studied a little longer, and you may leave “ that for the present to a professor.” 2111. Some witnesses have thought that there was not practically room for the readers and the combined lecturers to work together, that they were in fact the same class under different names, and that you must have the one or the other; do you agree with that — I do not see that. A large number of teachers is required, and a considerable portion of the combined lecturing would be done by those readers who would be presumably the best lecturers; but I do not think that it would destroy the combined college system, and if it did curtail it, I do not quite see what harm would he done, because the reader would still be a college lecturer. I do not see that any mischief vvould ensue at all — rather, I should hope, good. 2112. {Mr. Bernard.) He would lecture in his own college if that was thought desirable, and be would also lecture as an intercollegiate lecturer, with the dif- ference that he would be bound (which now he is not) to admit all members of the university? — ^Y'es, that is all. 2113. At present it is the case, is it not, that some and perhaps many of the intercollegiate lecturers do recieive men from outside ? — To a small (*xtent ; we have a few now and then from outside. 2114. He would be under an obligation to receive all members of the university ? — Yes, and the rest of the members of the university would know this. 2115. How would you provide for the payment of fees to such a person ? — .My own impression is that a man’s college ought to pay it for him ; but I would have every one who came to the lectures pay a fee, and besides that I would have a moderate stipend given to him by the university. 2116. I suppose it is clear that if he pays to his college a tuition fee, which is supposed to cover the whole of his tuition, an adequate amount of that should go to any person who gives him part of that instruction ? — Quite so. I think the feeling on that point is very sound. In my college, in fact, we pay for one or two, and pay more than we receive from them, in physical science, in which we are not able to give instruction. 2117. {Chairman.) I suppose that the difficulty of making the systems work together would be much less felt in those branches of instruction which the colleges have not systematically organised ; in natural science, for example, there would be very little diffi- culty? — In natural science the present training is in many colleges entirely professorial. 2118. But with regard to the School of Liter® Humaniores, the collegiate and intercollegiate systems may be said to be in possession of the teaching? — Yes. 2119. Then supposing that you were to introduce this third class of readers, how would they be dis- tinguished, except in the difference of their relation to the colleges and the. university, from the tutors and the intercollegiate lecturers ? — They would have the distinction of having this title and recognition from the university, but thej^ would still be, so far as lecturing is concerned, of equal value to their college and to the combination. 2120. Their work and functions would be the same ? — Their work and functions would be the same, except that they would be withdrawn, either entirely or in a considerable degree, from that large amount of personal superintendence which taxes the energies and strength and time of so many of the college tutors, and destroys the possibility of their reading, except in vacation. 2121. To whatever extent they drew fees from the college tuition funds, they would interfere with the college tutors, would they not? — Yes, but so does a successful teacher in the combined system. We send a large number, we will say, out of college (as we do) to a logic lecture ; the college has to pay for that, and we should have to do the same. 2122. Only there the college is to a certain extent a party to supplying its own wants in that manner under the combined system ? — Yes, but the under- graduate has a good deal to say to it. If there is a very good lecture going on at such and such a com- bined college, and the undergraduates know that it is good, they find no great difliculty in obtaining permission to attend it. 2123. {3Ir. Bernard.) Do you think that the reader should receive anything from the university ? — I think that he should receive a moderate stipend from the university, plus fees. 2124. By a moderate stipend, you mean one which would add to, but not make unnecessary his income from fees? — Yes, I should like him to receive, in addition to his fees, from 200/. to 400/. a year. 2125. {Chairman.) And you would associate him with the professors on the proper Board of Studies ? — 1 should like to see the Board of Studies made very much more important than they arc now. I should like to see all those readers (and the professors, of course), placed upon the Boards of Studies, and I should like to see them recruited by members chosen perhaps by congregation for their fitness, and then I should give them very great powers. 1 am afraid, that my idea might be thought very revolutionary, but I should like to see them have the appointment of OXFORD. Rev. G. G. Bradley, M. A. 27 Oct. 1877. OXFORD. Rev. G. G. Bradley, M.A. 27 Oct. 1877. 128 UNIVERSTXY OF OXFOUD COMMISSION: — MlNLiTES OF EVIDENCE. examiners rather than tlie jtroctors, it I niiglit be i llowed to say so. , . , , , , 2126. {I’rof. Smith.) Do you tliink t’.iat you couid entrust a Board of Studies so constituted witli any control over the lectiire.s ? Of course they could not control the lectures given in the c illeges, hut could they not be employed to organise the lectures given by the professors and readers ? — It it were not hopeless, I should like to see them even ha\e some- thin''' to say in the combined college lecture, but I am convinced that it woidd be hopeless at present to look for such a thing. I should like to give then con- siderable control over the professorial and readers lectures. 2127. Do you not think that one ot the dithculties in organising the instruction given in the 'univeisity is the strong tradition of absolute independence on the part of e; us ? — It is. 2128. And you feel that some made in sjiite of that tradition to introduce some more reo-ular system? — I have no doubt at all upon ' ach individual teacher which exists amongst effort ought to be the subject ; 2129. German of that I nm sure that it would be a great gam. (Chairman.) Do you know whether in the universities any central hoard or authority regulating the t is under very leave Professor kind exercises control in courses of lectiu'es ?— I believe that careful control, but I would rather INIax Muller to speak on the subject. 2160. The next point that is noted on your paper is as to research ; what do you think might he use- fully done in that respect? — We all, I think, feel^ that though the high-water mark, so to speak, of teaching is steadily rising in the university, perhajis there is not a corresponding advance in the amount of contributions to the learning of Europe made by our universities. The time of our college tutors is exceedingly taken up ; th.ey liave practical duties and business from which a German professor is quite exempt ; and learning as distinct from teacb.ing does not flourish amongst us so much as we should wish. There are persons on whom any one conversant with academical life could lay his hands who may not be verv striking teachers, but who have in them all the"^ qualifications for standing fully abreast of the best German inquirers. I should be exceedingly glad, and I think that it would be very wise on the part of the university, if any plan could be devised by which such talents and such industry could be turned to account. If any olficcs could be created which should be held on the tenure of work done, works published or inquiries, archa-ological (!r lite- rary, made, or treasures brought to light and edited from our own or from other libraries, I think that we should find the men to do it ; but they have no standing around at present in Oxford. I could put my hand on one or two men at Oxford who now from (juite their }'outh have been explorers in classi- cal knowledge (to take one point), and wlio have shown that they have all the industry and care and minuteness and enthusiasm that a German scholar has; and we do not know what to do with them; we can only employ them as teachers ; if such men could receive such an otlice as I suggest, either in connexion with the Bodleian or otherwise ; an ofl’ice which they should hold cn condition that within five 3 'ears they should produce some valuable work, and that if the}' did tliat well they should receive a renewed appointment; at the end ol' that five years, instead of forcing them to be teachers perhaps inferior to men of far less attainments, we should retain men who would be, I think, of real value to the literature of the nation. 2131. (Chnirnmn.) Is it your idea that the work to be executed as a condition of tlie tenure of the otfieg should be lu'escribed to them beforehand at the time of their ap[>ointment ? — Yes, I think that within limits it should be. 2132. For instance, that a man should be told to in it such and such a book ? — Y’^es, within certain limits ; not that the hook should be named, hut that the kind of work should be sketched out. 2133. Would there not be some difficulty when they came for re-election in applying any very severe test to the merit of tb.eir work? — There would he some difliculty in that ; but I think that the people who would wish for such a post would he people who would, as a rule, do the work well ; and even if a little money was wasted, much is necessarily wasted, and a great deal would fructify. 2134'. Probably you would not recommend that there should be a fixed number of exhibitions, or fellowships, or studentships of that description? — It occurs to me that it should be in the power of the university on the applications of the Board of Studies to grant such appointments. 1 should wish to see the Boards of Studies made far more important than they are now. 2135. To grant a subsidy to research in particular cases ? — Y"es; I should hope that in time the number of people to fill such appointments would greatly increase, and that we should not have to borrov/ so largely as we have from foreign sources. 2136. Do you or do jmu not agi'eo with an ojiinion which has been expressed to us by another gentleman that after a certain period, if a man by successive re-elections retained an emolument of th.at description until he was of a certain age, say 35, lie should th.en hold it for life ? — I think tliat after he had attained an age a good deal more advanced than that he might have it for life it he had made for himself a con- spicuous place in literature. 2137. I think I understood you to say that you would not jirescribe literary work with so much definiteness as would be involved, for example, in setting a man to edit a particular play of yEschylus or Euripides ? — No, i should rather shrink from that. The work would be verj' often of a kind much less remunerative than that. A good edition of a play is a vei' 3 ' valuable ])ro))crty and a very rare one, and 1 do not think that that needs an}' subsid}'. But there is a vast number of MSS. which reipiire collating and a great deal of work to be done both in the classical and historical field that would perliaps he ultimately remunerative, but not for some time and that would both reflect credit on, and stimulate the desire for for its own sake in the universit}', if shown in the choice I am afraid that there would be no real security at all. 2151. Do you yourself think that there would be advantage in liaving two Greek professors and two Latin professors, as distinct from readers ? — I do not feel sure that there would be. It is possible that in ancient history the need might be felt more. We have one professor at present, I think, of ancient history which is a large department. 2152. {Prof. Smith.) And one reader? — Yes. 1 should have thought that an addition might be made there with advantage. 215.3. {Mr. Bernard.) Would it not be possible to elect a person who was known to have made great progress in some particular branch, say of Greek literature, and to affix to (he statute regulating his chair some directions as to the subjects which he was to be expected to teach ? — I should think it a very excellent thing to appoint from time to time a person Q 6223. as a professor from his known knowledge of certain brancfies of subjects, without making that office neces- .sarily permanent, so that it should not follow as a matter of course that on his vacating his office his j)lace should be filled up. We might in that way secure men of remarkable knowledge and perhaps of remark- able powers of communicating their knowledge, on special subjects. 2154. {Chairman.) You think that would be a better way of obtaining excellent teaching in special out-of-the-way subjects than by multiplying permanent professorships in the particular faculty ? — It would certainly be a more economical way, and I think it might he equally efficient. 2155. {Mr. Bernard.) He might nevertheless be a professor teaehing in the faculty ? — Yes. 2156. {Chairman.) But not a permanent one ? — No. The witness withdrew. The following memorandum on the subject of cate- chetical teaching was afterwards received from the Master of University College ; — It has been pointed out to me, and possibly to the Commissioners, that whatever may be the advantages of largely attended and carefully prepared lectures on classi- cal aTithors, the new system, however, has one serious disadvaritage, which more than compensates for all that is to he said in its favour as compared with the old. The old catechetical system, it is said, has received its deathblow; the undergraduate listens now j)erhaps, hut listening is not education. Formerly, by viva voce trans- lation and by questions put to him, his own powers and attainments were constantly tested, both by himself and bj' his tutor; and the loss of all that this implies over- balances the gain of any amount of mere knowledge that can he learned by listening to a quasi-professorial lecture. Some of the best German professors are said to have seen the imi)ortance and advised the retention of this feature of English university education. The objection is a weighty one — more weighty, 1 venture to think, in theory than in j)ractice — and 1 hope that long experience as the teacher of boys of from ItJ to 19, and constant experience as a teacher of undergraduates for the last seven years, will justify me in attempting to examine its real weight. 1. No doubt the value of the catechetical system, where circumstances admit of its full aj)])lication, cannot be ex- aggerated. It is the main secret of a successful school- master’s success. He learns his boys’ faculties, progress, the weak and strong j)oints of their intellectual and even moral outfit, so to speak, by its aid. And under the guidance of a good master a boy ought never to stand on his feet and translate a passage from a Greek and Latin author without knowing more of himself and more of his subject when he sits down. 2. But a schoolmaster occu])ies a far more favourable ]josition in this respect than a college tutor. His boys owe and feel to him an allegiance and a submission, moral and intellectual, which they will rarely pay to a tutor at the university. He can expose their weaknesses, convince them of their looseness of thought and ignorance, praise, blame, repress, encourage in a way and to a degree that is impossible at the university. Young men, thrown together without any previous or merely present acquain- tance with each other, are naturally keenly sensitive to any public censure, or to any thorough and public display of their shortcomings. They would greatly resent, even in an in-college lecture, the plain words and free handling \yhich a boy at school would accept without the slightest ill-feeling from one to whom he has looked up for years as fully entitled to speak to him with entire freedom. 3. Again, even in a college lecture, it is impossible to graduate the classes to the degree to which it can be done in a large and well ordered school. The schoolmaster at every great school, at all events with one exception, teaches boys who are on a fair level. The head master has liefore him the intellectual Cite of the school. But when the sixth-form boy goes to the univer- sity he finds himself, and must do so, attending the same lectures as young men greatly behind himself in attain- ments, and the college catechetical lecture of former and recent days often meant to him the listening to the slow and unscholarly performances of old schoolfellows who would never at school have “ said their lessons ” for a moment in the same class room. R OXFORD. lien. G. G. Bradley, M. A. 27 Oct. 1877. 130 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. (j . Cr. Bradley, M.A, 27 Oct. 1877. R. Ellis, Esq., M.A. 4. I'lie result of these two causes, the natural and inevit- able sensitiveness of the undergraduate as compared with the schoolboy, and the impossibility of adequate and full classification of the pupils, was patent to all who can re- call the ordinary college lecture of the past. 1 venture to say that not one tutor in twenty really did or could do the proper work of a catechetical lecturer, i.e., really grappled mind to mind with the men as they severally did their viva voce work. The ordinary course was to be satisfied with an extremely low standard, and to let ]iass without rebuke faults which would have been peremptorily checked by a good headmaster, a practice which was infinitely bad both for the teacher and the taught. 5. A really good catechetical lecturer must also devote much time to the treatment of each viva voce translator on whom he operates — valuable as is such treatment where done well and fully, it of course makes progress in the amount read slow ; and it is desirable and necessary that the amount read in a college course of lectures should greatly exceed in quantity that done in a school course of lessons. 6. It is no doubt true that many undergraduates enter the university, even as candidates for classical honours, to whom catechetical teaching of the kind indicated would be, if practicable and if thorough, most valuable. No one can examine candidates for matriculation without recognising this. 7. But if boys, or rather young men, of 19, who have been supposed to be well taught on the catechetical system from their childhood, have not yet been taught to avoid entire looseness of thought and great vulgarity of expres- sion, is it the proper work of colleges at a university to begin to lay the foundation ? To the passman the catechetical lecture is indispensable ; his intellectual status is too often that of the second-rate or third-rate schoolboy, and he requires a schoolboy’s diet. But surely the picked boys of our schools, those who are candidates for the classical honours of a great university are, or ought to be, fit for higher teaching than is com- patible with giving half or two thirds of a lecturer’s time to the exposure of blunders ; they ought to be able to enter into, prepare for, appreciate, and profit by a full discussion, by one older and better informed than themselves, of the dif- ficulties, the excellences, the apparent and the real meaning of lessons, together with the necessary illustrations and full criticism of the author whom they are reading. 8. Doubtless such lectures should be freely supplemented by paper work done from time to time by those who attend them. And such paper work should be, as experience shows that it can be, criticised with the very utmost freedom. No sensible undergraduate, in my own expe- rience no undergraduate, resents the sharpest private criticism of the kind ; it stands quite apart from that which is involved in the public criticism inseparable from a viva voce catechetical lecture, attended by young men often strangers to each other, and at an exceedingly sensitive age, which in a largel}’’ attended intercollegiate lecture, would be simply impossible. Those who know best the real value of a school lesson to a good sixth form would be the last to attempt to transplant the system to an inter- collegiate lecture. 9. It remains to say that an experienced lecturer will know well the kind of faults to which his pupils are most liable ; they will probably be only too well impressed on his memory, and he will find, perhaps, that by keeping them steadily before his mind at every lecture, and by thorough criticism of the paper work submitted to him, he will make at least as much progress in correcting them as in the poor substitute for the sixth-form lesson which a very imperfectly-conducted viva voce catechesis would offer him. Robinson Ellis, Esq., M.A., (Fellow of Trinity College,) examined. 2157. {Chairman.) I understand from the letter which you have been so good as to address to us that you are prepared to submit some views which you have formed, especially as to the subject of philo- logical research ; will you have the goodness to state your views ? — The point upon which I feel rather strongly is that there is not at present a sufficient num- ber of Englishmen who are distinguished in philological research, whose names are known on the continent, and who cause the university to hold a respectable place in philology on the continent. I think that in order to improve that state of things it would be possible to have some appointments in connexion with the Bodleian library, which is obviously the place with which research is mainly connected. As I stated in my letter, the Bodleian contains an immense amount of MSS., many of which have only been very carelessly examined, and I suspect really not thoroughly examined at all. It is w'ell knoivn that of late years immensely increased attention has been attracted to MSS., particularly, I may say, in Latin; Latin Philo- logy has ratlier taken the place, I think, of Greek Philology, as the more attractive subject, within the last 20 or 30 years. I think I should be justified in saying that. My view is that unless some definite appointment is made of the kind to which I allude, there will be no sufficient encouragement for men living here to examine the treasures which we have in the Bodleian. It is not too much to say that hardly anybody, not even the librarian himself, is quite aware how valuable are the resources that we have here in that way. Of course there are also the libraries of the colleges, which contain much that is valuable ; but it is, in an especial sense, true of the Bodleian that no one can over-estimate what is to be found there. I think there should be some appointment of the kind which I have mentioned ; that is to say, that persons who have been tested as capable of examin- ing MSS. and making out their value should have the chance of eventually obtaining something con- nected with that branch of philology in the Bodleian. They should, of course, be very much under the eye of the librarian for the time being, and I believe that it is part of a scheme to be proposed to you by Mr. Coxe that the Bodleian should be itself reorganised, so that one of the librarians should be particularly connected with the MSS. department. With him the person appointed to such a place as I have in view should be in constant connexion ; and I would suggest that the librarian of the Bodleian or the librarian particularly connected with MSS. should exercise over him some actual control. I do not know whether I can state anything much more definitely than I have in my letter. The details of the scheme might be elaborated as soon as it was determined that such a place should exist. I do not know that it is necessary to go at any length into any details about it. 2158. You say you think it would be easy to make conditions which would prevent appointments of the class which you recommend from becoming sinecures ; what sort of conditions do you mean ? — There should be the necessity of laying something before a board selected for the purpose ; a board, that is to say, of learned men who would see that the person ap- pointed was really working, and working on valuable matter. I think that one thing in connexion with this plan w'hich I have proposed must strike most people as obviously useful and almost imperatively demanded, and that is the publication of a learned university paper corresponding very much to the French “Notices et Extraits.” It should be a journal which should appear periodically and should be ex- pressly devoted to unedited material of all kinds that turned up in the Bodleian or other libraries either in England or even on the continent. That is the real thing which my scheme aims at. The Germans par- ticularly, and the French also, it seems to me, are much keener than we are in finding valuable things, and in that way enlarging the amount of classical material in Greek and Latin ; and I certainly think that a great deal yet remains to be done by English- men in that way. In the British Museum as well as in the Bodleian there is a large amount of valuable material which I know the Germans would like to see edited if they could not edit it themselves. 1 do not think one can tell what might not turn up in the process of these investigations, because such out-of-the-way things are brought to light in quite accidental ways. 2159. (Mr. Bernard.) Then the question would arise, would it not, whether such things should be UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 131 done by private enterprise, or in any other way ? — I think that j)rivate enterprise does very little. But what has hitherto been done by ])rivate enterprise, for instance, “ Cramer’s Anecdota,” has been valuable in making the university known ; it has been quoted more, perhaps, than the work of any other English scholar. I regard it as a matter of very great con- sequence that the >miversity should be known on tlie continent as contributing materially to enlarge the sphere, so to speak, of philology ; and if you leave it only to private enterprise and do not do anything to endow it, the chances of anything really'^ valuable turning up are, I think, much diminished. 2160. You referred just now to the French publi- cation “ Notices et Extraits,” how is that issued ? — That appears from time to time ; not quite regularly, but there is generally a volume, I think, every year. It is a quarto publication in large type and occa- sionally with notes illustrative of the matter pub- lished. It is got up in a manner quite unnecessarily expensive. If we had such an Acta Eruditorum (as the librarian of the Bodleian suggests that it should be called) it need not be got up on the same expen- sive scale, I think ; it would be quite unnecessary to have so large a page for instance ; the page might be an octavo page, and the printing need not be so fine or exquisite. 2161. I suppose that is done either with Govern- ment funds or with the help of some Government subvention ? — I believe it is done in connexion with the Government. 2162. You do not know who does it or under what authority it is done ? — I do not. I only know that it is often quoted and that it does a great deal to keep up the reputation of the French scholars. 2163. {Chairman.) I suppose you would recom- mend that such a publication here should be issued from the University Press? — I think it should b^ issued from the University Press. It should have two or even more editors. It might include oriental subjects — that is a question which might arise — but I think I may say, from a meeting which has been already held, that the principal scholars in O.xf'ord, with ortb or two exceptions, are pretty well agreed about the utility of such a publication. That is one of the things which, I think, should certainly be in connexion with this plan which I have brought forward. 2164. I think some of the gentlemen whom we liave heard before you have suggested that there are historical treasures in the Bodleian which require the same kind of investigation ? — Yes, I should suppose so, because the MSS. in the Bodleian are of every kind. It would be a subordinate question of course with regard to the publication of Acta such as I mean, whether it should only include clas- sical subjects, or whether it should extend for instance to early English MSS. These are subordinate ques- tions. It was much more in connexion with Latin and Greek that I thought of it, and there I certainly think we could not fail to find valuable materials. 2165. {Mr. Bernard.) You suggest, however, that there should be in the Bodleian an official specially conversant with its M S. treasures ? — Yes, I think so. The person that I would appoint should not be him- self, I think, a librarian in the Bodleian ; it- should be kept quite separate from the librarians of the Bodleian whatever their number might be. 2166. {Prof. Smith.) You would wish to see a student fellowship attached to the Bodleian ? — Yes ; a student fellowship in the Bodleian attached to research. I had not formulated to myself any name for it, but that is very much the idea. 2167. {Chairman.) There might be more than one on the same principle, I suppose, in different depart- ments of knowledge ? — Yes. I mentioned at the end of my letter particularly glossaries. There I happen to know from my own experience that the Bodleian as well as the college libraries contain most valuable materials. 2168. {Prof. Smith.) Do you mean ancient glos- saries ? — Ancient glossaries, really valuable contribu- tions to the actual stock of words, words obviously of an archaic kind, many of which, I think, have not yet found their way into the lexicons. That is obviously an important branch of I.,atin philology, and I have no doubt that the same thing is true in other departments which I have not investigated. The witness withdrew. [Letter referred to in Mr. Ellis’s evidence]. Trinity College, Oxford, Gentlemen, October 26, 18/7. The point on which 1 wish to address you is particu- larly connected with what 1 conceive to be the progress of philological research. During the last 30 years all, or nearly all, the principal contributions to an enlarged knowledge of Greek and Latin authors have been based on an investigation of manuscripts of a minute and laborious kind unknown before. It has been my own aim as a scholar, and it is becoming avowedly the aim of most other scholars in this university to show that research in this department of philology is not con- fined to the continent, and that Englishmen are able to appreciate the treasures which lurk in their national col- lections or in the private libraries of individuals. This is the point where 1 apprehend something new might reason- ably be done. The Bodleian contains much that has either not been known or never brought before the learned both in Greek and Latin ; there is an amount of MS. material which, if properly and carefully examined would certainly be found either wholly new, or valuable as correct- ing and amplifying the existing material. But there is no organisation for utilising this, no encouragement for re- search in a department still eyed with suspicion by many Englishmen as of doubtful utility. The consequence is that continental, and especially German, scholars forestal the credit of discoveries which ought to be made by ourselves. 1 would propose therefore that with the object of encouraging men to prosecute researches in MSS. one or two endowments ’should be made by the Commis- sion appropriated to this subject. It or they should, I think, be connected with the Bodleian, where it would be natural that such researches should be made, though of course any one who once entered on anything like a detailed examination of the MSS. connected with any subject or author would extend his researches to other collections. I might instance Latin Glossaries ; here a great field lies before future scholars, to which the MSS. in the Bodleian, the college libraries, the libraries of Cam- bridge, and at the British Museum, as well as others which it is not necessary to specify here, would make a most im- portant contribution. It would be easy to make conditions which would prevent such appointments from becoming sinecures ; and it is not difficult to foresee that such researches would call for the subsidiary aid of a learned journal like the French “ Notices et Extraits,” which would unite all the scholars of the two universities in a common interest, and would prevent the reproach often brought against us of late, that we do little or nothing that is new. 1 remain, gentlemen. Yours most respectfully, (Signed) Robinson Ellis. OXFORD. li. Ellis, Esq. M.A. 27 Oct. 1877. G. E. Thorley, Esq., M.A., (Fellow of Wadham College,) examined. 2169. {Chairman.) You are a tutor of Wadham College ? — Yes. 2170. You take part, we understand, in the system of combined college lectures between certain colleges ? —I do. 2171. I understand that the resident fellows of your college have requested you to come here for the pur- pose of expressing opinions on certain subjects? — They have. 2172. The first of those subjects is as to some requirements of the university, perhaps you would have the goodness to state your views as to those requirements ? — I would say at the beginning, in order that k may not be supposed that I have any scheme of my own to propose, that I come here at the re()uest of the resident fellows of my college. As my main object will be to question the necessity of some things which have been put forward as R 2 G. E. Thorley Esq., M.A. 132 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. G'. E. Thorlei/, Esq., M.A. 27 Oct. 1877. requirements of the university, I think it better tliat I sliouhl be<>in by statiiii? wiiat I think are requirements. Most of them will, no doubt, have been put forward by others wlu' have more right to speak than I have. First, I think that the university undoubtedly wants funds for eertain buildings, parti- cularly lecture rooms for professors. 1 think also that a museum of classical art and archeology is needed. I need not say that funds for the Bodleian library are needed. I also consider that funds are needed for the increased payment of most of the pro- fessors and of the examiners. 1 think that anyone who knows Oxford will say that the stipends of nearly all the professors are quite inadequate, and with the examiners ))erha])s this is still more the ease. I think there is no doubt that additional ])ro- fessorships are needed in some branches of natural science, and that funds are also needed for the main- tenance and im])rovement of the museum. With regard to new professorships, I think it probable that the university would bo benefited by a professorship of classical art and archmologv, and by one of Flnglish literature : and 1 am not sure whether 1 should not add a professor.diip of modern literature other than English, but that I do not put forward positively. 1 think it also might be useful for a fund to be placed in the hands of jvrojverly selected persons who might give occasional grants to aid special branches of study. I should wish this to be an experiment, and I do not think it would be desirable that the fund should be a very large one, or that the grants should be very large; but 1 think that something of the kind might very likely be useful. Besides this I should say with respect to all the subjects taught and studied in the university, that if it can be shown that there is any subject or part of a subject which is of sufficient width and of sufficient general interest to be treated sepa- rately, I think it should be rei)resented by a pi ofessor. But proposals have been made for the a])pointment of additional professors in many subjects which are already’ represented by jn’ofessors. These, I think, would be of very questionable advantage. I do not mean to say that if the Commission had at its disposal a large sum of money with no other claims upon them it might not be desirable to do this ; but I assume that any money that is used in this way will have to be laised by taxation of the colleges, and I venture to think that the money would be very much better left where it is even for the purpose for which these j)iofessorships would he created. If I understand rightly the duties of a professoi, they would include, besides advancing his subject by his own study and by publications, the giving of lectures to the higher class of students. By the higher class of students, I should understand either those who are themselves intending to adopt an academical life, to become pro- fessors or teachers, or others who from some special taste or aptitude wish to pursue their studies to a gieater length. I think that the existing j)rofessors in the classical and historical subjects (it is of those of which I am speaking, i am not coiujvetent to speak of mathematics or natural science) are sufficient for the ])urpose which I have named. The great bulk of our undergraduates do not belong to the class that 1 have mentioned. I am not speaking of the idle ones — the large number who come up to Oxford simply f()r three years of enjojment — but of the industrious undergracluates who come up here to go through a definite course of study as a preparation for after life. The course of study is prescribed for them by the examinations. At every stage in their course, they want guidance and assistance, and 1 venture to think that this guidance and assistance cannot to any large extent be given to them by professors, but that it must be provided by persons who are in a closer rela- tion with them than any pi ofessor can possibly be to a large number of students. I am aware that there have been, and perhaps are still professors who have done this to some extent ; but it is obvious that a frrofessor can only stand in this relation to a very limited number of students. I might mention the late Professor Conington as one who did this kind of work to a very lar'ge extent, but our- numbers have much increased since that time. A jnofessor will generallv be lecturing, and I think ipiite rightly too, on that part of his subject to which his own jrrivate studies have led him, or in which he happens to be for the time being most interested ; but it does not always or even generally follow that this is the subject in which the undergraduates most need instruction at the par- ticular time. They therefore go to their college tutor and ask where they are to get instr uction in this jrar- ticular subject, and as the professors are found not to be lecturing on the subjects wanted, the college tutor has to provide the instruction. 1 hope that in nothing which I may say I may be supposed to dis- parage the existing professors, for whom no one can have a greater r espect than I have. 217.3. You would be ojrposed, as I understand, to the creation of additional professorships of Ancient History, of Greek, and of Latin ? — Yes. I think that if more and better teaching is needed in these subjeets the necessity wmirld be better met by an organisation of the colleges, so that a college should have a larger part of its present funds available for the purposes of education within itself; that the positiorr of teachers in colleges should be made more permanent than it now is, that they should be better paid, and that they should have more leisure. This appears to me to be an absolute neces- sity. I believe that in this w'ay, by retaining the existing professors, and by creating professors of any subject w’hich is not now represented, to earry on one kind of teaching, and by improving the position of the college tutors and lecturers, to carry on the other kind of teaching, the university would be very much better supplied than it would be by the large number of new professorships which are proposed. It is often said that they have this large number of professors in other universities, in the German universities for instance ; but I venture to think that the conditions of the two are wholly different. The college sy.stem is already in existence with us, and though perhaj)s we might not establish it if we w'ere starting de unr.o, yet I am strongly of opinion that it would be wise to hesitate before destroying it. I should like to dwell for a moment upon the effect which I think the removal of the higher teaching from the colleges may have upon the colleges themselves. I am assuming that by the proposal to create additional professorships in sub- jects which are already represented it is intended that the university teaching should take the place of college teaching. It appears to me that in the first place the efficiency of the colleges would be very seriously crippled by the diminution of their funds which would be necessary ; and secondly, that the persons who would be found to take the post of college tutors would be of an inferior class to those who take it now, and that consequently their influence upon their pupils would be proportionately weakened. I think it may be said with tolerable certainty that an undergraduate feels respect for, and is influenced by, those above him in proportion as he recognises in them some superiority of knowledge to himself. There is another jioint with reference to the creation of many new professorships which I touch with a good deal of hesitation, but which I think it is necessary to touch, and that is the difficulty of framing a satisfactory mode of appointment. I do not think that in Oxford there is any large confidence felt in the modes of appointing professors which are now in vogue. I believe it may be said that every mode of appoint- ment wdneh now exists has at one time or another given us very eminent professors ; but I think it may be also said that there is scarcely any mode of appoint- ment now used which does not occasionally make appointments which may best be called unfortunate. I think that the difficulty of appointment is much less felt wdien the appointments are in the hands of the colleges. 1 svqtpose I am naturally biassed upon the subject, having belonged to a college for a great many years, but I certainly think that the appointments in UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 133 the colleges are less influenced by political or ecclesi- astical feeling than those in the university, and I think that the necessity under which the members of the college feel themselves to secure the most efficient teaching they ])ossibly can for their own college leads them to put all other c|uestions aside except that of getting' the best man they possibly can. It has been |)roposed also to create a number of readers. I do not see the same objections to the creation of readers that I do see to the creation of additional ])rofessors, and I think that as an experiment readers might *l)e a[)pointed for a term of years. The experiment has been already tried to some extent. There is a reader of ancient histoiy, and I think everybody will allow that liis lectures have been very valuable. I think that the readerships may be arranged so as to form a valuable part of the teaching in some of the subjects, particularly in philosophy and history. Hut even with regard to the readers I am not sure that the appointments would not be better if entrust('d to colleges or groups of colleges than in the hands of the university. I think that appointments by the colleges wouhl secure greater variety, and that they would give areater o[)portnnities to a young man who is studying those subjects to make himself known ; his merits may be known by his college, or by the group of colleges with which he is connected, when he would not have a chance of obtaining a university appointment. I should like to say that I agree with the letter which Professor Rawlinson appended to the report of the Hebdomadal Council on the subject. Professor Rawlinson’s view is that the exaction of lectures should be made somewhat less stringent. With that view I agree. I think that on the whole the more leisure you give your teachers the better teaching you will have, and fixing a minimum in that way only affects the idle and perfunctory ones, who will be idle and perfunctory still ; and that it is often a great drag on the more industrious teachers. I say that particidarly in regard to the number of lectures. 1 think it woidd he right that they should be ready to give j)i'ivate advice or instruction for a certain time. I do not know that I have anything more to say upon that point. 2174. (7dr. Bellamy.) Ton said that you wished the college tutors to be better paid. V\ ith that one would agree, hut 1 did not quite understand what 3’ou meant by their being made more permanent ? — The college tutor’s retention of his post in most instances now dejtends upon his not marrying. 1 suppose that in other respects the permanence would he secured by larger pay. It is not now an occu- ])ation which a person can, as a rule, take up as a profession. 2175. You think that those two conditions would really secure the remaining in O.xford as tutors of the best men ? — Yes, I think they woidd. I think that there is always a sufficient number of persons fond of academical life who would remain at Oxford. 2176. (Prof. ■ Smith.) You have spoken of the endowment of new offices in the university at the expense of the colleges as likely in some cases to cripple the efficiency of the colleges. Of course it cannot have escaped your attention that the colleges are very uneijually wealthy, and that this might be the case with some of them, but could hardly lie the case with all ? — I quite agree with that; but 1 think it can scarcely be denied that there are a number of colleges, I do not know how many, which would be very seriously injured by having to make any large contribution to university purposes. 2177. The point of my question was that one can hardly represent the establishment of new offices in the university as certainly leading to any crippling of the college system, owing to the want of funds. It might do so, but it need not necessarily do so ? — I should say that I think a college which has a very large number of fellows might sacrifice some of its fellowships with no injury to its efficiency. Of course, in making a remark of that kind, 1 am biassed by the condition of my own college, which is cer- tainly one which could not lose any funds without serious injmy. 2178. When you spoke of leaving the colleges more free to dispose of their income for educational purposes, you contemplated the idea of suppressing fellowships in order to establish a larger tutorial fund ? — Certainly. The only funds that the smaller colleges have that could be used in this way are such as are now apjiropriated to non-resident fellowships. 217.9. Bernard.) Are you satisfied with the working of the intercollegiate system of lectures ? — I think it has become necessary, but I am not wholly satisfied with it. What I may' call the tutorial side of the work has, I think, a little lost by it. It is a little more difficult than it was before to give the necessary attention to one’s men. A tutor has to spend a great deal more time on preparing lectures than he did formerly', and naturally' has less time to give to looking after the men. 2180. Is what you would call the tutorial work divided to any extent between the lecturers and the tutors ? — As a general rule the tutors of each college take the suj)erintendence of their own men ; and if they have a lecturer on any particular subject be- longing to the college he would take the superin- tendence of the men in that particular subject, but the lecturers on the combined system do not neces- sarily do anything for the men who attend their lectures excejit give lectures to them. 2181. I suppose that it has operated as a stimidus to the lecturers to make their lectures as good as possible ? — Undoubtedly. 2182. It is a j)owerful stimulus now, is it not ? — I think it is a very powerful one. If I were to exjiress my opinion of it shortly, I should say' that undoubtedly it has been for the good of the lec- turers ; but I am not so sure that it has been for the good of the students. 2183. Perhaps you would be unwilling to see it carried further ? — I should. I think it is carried far enough. 2184. {J^raf. Smith.) You would consider, would you not, that there is as much private work done with the men now by college tutors as ever thei e was ? — Yes, 1 should say that with the best men there is more. 2185. {Dr. Bellamy.) More than when you were an undergraduate ? — More than when I was an undergraduate certainly. What was done by some tutors, and was looked upon as a very exceptional thing, when I was an undergraduate, is now done by all tutors, and consequently the work has very much increased. 2186. {Prof. Smith.) You have spoken of the best men, do you think that any class of students, say those of the second grade or of the third grade, is at all neglected under the present system 1 should not like to go so far as to say that they are neglected, but I think it is jiossible that they may be. 2187. {Chairman.) Is the teaching of passmen as efficient in the colleges as it was before, or more so ? — 1 should think it is quite as efficient. The pass examinations have been undergoing great changes, and the colleges are only just settling down into a system of arranging the teaching. I have no doubt that the combinations which are being formed for this purpose will very much improve the pass teach- ing. There are lectures given for the passmen. 2I8^. To what extent have those (iombinations been formed? — The college to w'hich I belong has been forming a combination With Lincoln and Oriel Colleges for the instruction of the passmen. 2189. How long has it been in operation ? — A very short time indeed ; a term or tw'o. 2190. Not long enough to produce any marked results as yet? — No. 2191. {Mr. Bci-nard.) Is that for instruction in the old subjects, or in some of the newer subjects introduced to the new pass school ?• — Both. 2192. You are a member of a college which is in combination ? — Yes. R 3 OXFORD. G. E. Thorlcy, Esq., M.A. 27 Oct. 1877. 134 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. G. E. 'i'horley, Esq., M.A. 27 Oct. 1877. 219.3. Some of' your pupils attend the lectures of other lecturers than yourself? — Yes. 21 94. What would jmii do with the men who attend other lecturers ; tvould you see any of their work, would you only advise them, or what private work would you do with them ? — If a pupil of mine were attendinn; another lecturer on ancient history, I should make him come to me and bring me answers to questions and essays continually, unless it hap- pened that the lecturer whom he attended undertook to do it. 2195. (^Chairitian.) Will you now pass to your point as to the proposal to establish university scholarships from the funds of colleges, under sub- section 11 of section 16? — My own opinion on this is, that such scholarships are undesirable ; but as it has found a place in the Bill I suppose I must not criticise it. In founding scholarships not to be connected with colleges, and the funds for which I apprehend must come from the colleges, I think that they should be strictly limited to persons in need of assistance, whether they are unattached students or persons wdio would become members of colleges. It appears to me that it would be very unjust to take the funds from the existing colleges and to found scholarships with them to be given as j)iizes, as col- lege scholarships are now given, and then to allow the holders to go where they will. If they were given in that way the practical effect of it Avould be a transference to the colleges, which for the time being happen to be most in vogue, of the funds of those colleges which are not so fortunate ; and it would have the effect, I believe, of perpetuating what is after all only an accidental and temporary superiority. I say “an accidental superiority” because I imagine that all colleges have had ups and downs. There- fore I think that it would be extremely wrong to establish scholarships which would have the effect of still further increasing the temporary differences between colleges. 2196. {3Ir. Bernard.) Do you think that there is much need for adding to the number of scholarships considered as prizes for proficiency ? — I do not. 2197. The number of open scholarships in Oxford now is very considerable, is it not ? — ^Very large. Speaking of the classical subjects, I think it is too large. I think it is so large that you cannot get sudiciently good candidates for the scholarships. I think there might be scholarships founded for natural science. I should wish to propose in my own college the foundation of scholarships for natural science. 2197a. For the subjects which are chiefly learned at schools, you think that the supjdy of open scholar- ships at present is amply large ? — Amply large. 2198. {Dr. Bellamy.) And it is the tendency of the colleges to increase the number, is it not ? — It is the tendency of the colleges to increase the numbei’, but, it is still more the tendency of the colleges to increase the value of them. I think that the way in which colleges have bid against one another in in- creasing the value of their scholarships is a great evil. I have heard a suggestion made, which appears to me worth considering, which is that no scholarship should be of moi e value when obtained than a com- paratively small sum, say 30/. or 40/., but that the colleges should have, the power of granting to under- graduates who need them exhibitions of larger value. Very often now an undergraduate of very moderate attainments gets a scholarship of 80/. or 100/. a year, and it not seldom has the efllect of diminishing exertion on his part. Scholarships have the effect sometimes of increasing the average expenditure of men ; whereas the scholars in a college used 25 years ago to set the example of economy, it is not so now. In my own college I should say that, without being culpably extravagant, they are the less economical persons in the college. 2199. { Chairman.) Have the expenses of under- graduates materially increased or diminished, or are they much the same as they always were; has that system of extravagance, which you speak of as being perhaps promoted amongst scholars by too great liberality of endowment, kept pace with any general increase of expenditure, or is it exceptional ? — I should think that there has been an increase, but probably not a very great one. I think that under- graduates are in some ways more careful than they used to be when I was myself an undergraduate. They look after their expenditure more closely, though they often indulge themselves more. 2200. {Dr. Bellamy.) They try to get as much for their money as they can ? — They try to get as much for their money as they can. 2201. {Mr. Bernard.) Are you in favour of any regulation a|)plic:ible to all colleges, limiting the age up to which boys might be candidates for si-.holar- ships ? — Yes, I shouhl be very strongly in favour of it. 2202. Up to w^hat age? — I should like to say 18, if I did not think that would be too strong a measure to adopt at once ; but I should certainly wish to say 19. In most colleges, certainly in my own, the age for scholarships used to be under 19. I myself got a scholarship when I wms under 19, but the age was increased by the last Commission to 20, and I do not think that it was a good change. It has the effect of keeping boys at school much longer than is good for them ; the duller boys are kept at school under the idea that by staying a long time they may ultimately get a scholarship. This they sometimes do, and it is a misfortune for themselves and for the college that takes them. 2203. With respect to exhibitions conferred partly upon the ground of need, have you any opinion about the advisability of such exhibitions ? — Yes, I think that there should be such exhibitions. I may mention that in my own college for some years the head and tutors have been allowed from the funds of the college to give in aid to such undergraduates as are thought to need it a sum not exceeding I 00/. altogether, and we have found it extremely useful. It is a very small sum, but of course we are not a rich college, and could not afford more. I should like it to be much larger. 2204. Have you known cases in which assistance of that kind has been valuable ? — I have knowm cases in which it has enabled a youth to stay at the univer- sity and take his degree when he could not otherwise have done it. 2205. Was that in the case of a youth who it was desirable should take a degree ? — Yes, in more than one case. 2206. {Cluih’7nan.) I suppose in those cases it is done without any publicity ? — Yes, without any pub- licity. There is a good deal of difficulty in ascer- taining genuine need on the part of an undergraduate, but still it may be ascertained. 2207. {Dr. Bellamy.) Do you give it before the youth comes ? — During his time. We also have, b}' another arrangement, the power of offering small exhi- bitions to candidates for scholarships who have done fairly well, but not up to the standard of the scholar- ships. I think that the importance of this kind of aid to undergraduates cannot be exaggerated, and that the colleges should have power to give such assistance. I think myself that it does really much more good than a great deal of the money spent in scholarships. 2208. Then you would not object to there being some similar provision in the case of the unattached students ? — Certainly not. All that I wished to state an objection to was the giving of scholarships by the university simply as prizes for the holders to take them where they would. 2209. But you would distinctly approve of exhibi- tions being given to unattached students on the elee- mosynary principle ? — Certainly. 2210. {Mr. Bernard.) Have you any opinion as to fhe best mode in which such assistance might be given. You, at your college, adopt a mode which is strictly private. Another mode, of course, is to have exhibitions for which persons compete who have been previously ascertained to be in need of assistance ? — I think I prefer our own mode, but I have no very UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 13.5 strong opinion upon the point. I think you will find that in cases of this kind, where you have an exami- nation, the candidates having previously had to prove their want of assistance, there is a difficulty in dis- covering whether the case is genuine. 2211. {Chairman.') You can have nothing but a declaration of some sort ; can you apply any test beyond a statement by the friendrs of the young man ? — I do not know that you can ; but in giving such assistance to a student already in the college you have a very effective test, his own expenditure. I have had to do with a college for a very long time, and I have seen a great man}^ instances of excessive economy, economy which has been really heroic. 2212. With regard to unattached students, it would be necessary, would it not, that it should be competi- tive after some test of poverty ? — I should have thought that the censors might know what students needed it. 2213. {Prof. Smith.) You would not object to place a sum at the disposal of the censors to enable them to assist necessitous students ? — Not at all ; I should think it a very good use of the money. I am not generally in favour of spending large sums of money on the unattached students, but 1 think this might be very valuable indeed. 2214. Returning to the former part of your evidence, where you spoke of the necessity of improv- ing the position of the college tutors with a view to rendering the profession of college tutor more at- tractive, do you consider that the establishment of university readerships would tend towards that end ? — Of course it would depend upon whether the readerships wera held by tutors or not, and I do not feel quite satisfied whether they ought to be so held. 2215. The proposal of the Council was that they should be tenable by college tutors ? — It was, but I am disposed to think that the position of a tutor in a college ought to be sufficient without this addition, and I should myself be rather inclined to think that the readerships ought not to be tenable by college tutors, though they might perhaps be held by college lecturers. It is a point on which I have no strong opinion. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to Monday next, at 10 o’clock. OXFORD. Monday, 29th October 1877. Present : The Right Honourable LORD SELBORNE in the Chair. The Right Hon. The Earl of Rehesdale. The Rev. James Bellamy, D.D. The Right Hon. Montague Bernard, D.C.L. Professor H. J. S. Smith, M.A. Sir Matthew White Ridley, Bart., M.P. The Rev. T. Vere Bayne and T. F. D allin. Esq., Secretaries. The Rev. John Richard Magratii, M.A., (Pro-Provost of Queen’s College,) examined. 2216. {Chairman.) As to the subject of the ex- tension and re-organisation of the professoriate, will you state the principles which you think should be borne in mind ? — I think that a professor may be expected to be useful to the university according to different theories in three ways. (1) by assisting in the preparation of students for specific examinations, (2) by being available for the assistance of real, that is to say disinterested, students, and (3) by representing the study of his subject and promoting the advance- ment of its limits. 2217. At present perhaps you will speak to the first of these heads, and consider how far the professoriate is sufficient for that purpose or ought for that purpose to be enlarged ? — It has been taken for granted, I tbink, in Oxford that the first is the only one worth considering ; that is to say, the preparation of students for special examinations. The prescription in the statute book of numerous lectures to be delivered by the professors seems to point in that direction, and the professors by the lectures which they generally give seem to evidence that they believe that to be what is expected of them. I think also that the tenour of the report prepared by the Council on the subject of university requirements shows that that was what they chiefly contemplated. 2218. Do you think that for that purpose an exten- sion of the professoriate is desirable ? — 1 think that the professoriate in this respect is superfluous in Oxford. 2219. Do you say that, with a view to the prepara- tion of students for the examinations, the professoriate is superfluous ? — Yes, I think that is the case. At the present moment with reference to some of the studies of the place with a view to a degree all the needs of the students are met by the colleges without the assistance of the university. With reference to the other subjects, except perhaps natural science, they could easily be met. Lastly, I think that all the colleges should be required to make such provision in the case of natural science. 2220. 'Then you think that the collegiate system of teaching at ‘present adequately provides what the student requires so far as the subjects of examination are concerned? — I do, as a system. 2221. You think that it provides for it in a way which could not be advantageously replaced by a more professorial system of instruction for the same pur- pose ? — I think that the country is very well satisfied with the way in which the colleges perform their duty, and that to try and get it performed doubly by the colleges and the university together would be a waste of money. * 2222. Some agreeing with that view have advocated the assumption of the whole of that duty, at least so far as relates to honour students, by the university, and the complete extinction of college teaching as to that class of students ; are you in favour of that ? — I am very much against it. 2223. Do you think with regard to the Natural History School, which at present is mainly provided for by university teachers, that it would be desirable to extend the system of college teaching to that ? — I do. 2224. Do you think that would not involve some waste of power, the university having already pro- vided museums and apparatus and laboratories, or at all events being likely to do so, as far as they are R 4 OXFORD. G. E. Thorley, Esq., M.A. 27 Oct, 1877. OXFORD. Eev. J. R. Magrath,M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. 130 UNIVEnSITY OF OXFi'KO COMMISSlOX : — -^flNUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. liCL’. J . 11. Mayralh,M.A. 2!) Oct. 1877. deficient at present ? — I think a very large proportion of the present ])lant, thougli necessary or desirable for the purposes of promoting the sciences or of advanced study, is Avholly superfluous for the ordinary wants of university education. 2225. Do you think that the colleges could easily provide themselves with a sufficient number of tutors for teaching in those subjects ? — Yes, if there w'ere a sufficient number of students. 2226. Do you mean each college separately or upon the combined system ? — Upon the combined system. » 2227. Have you any reason besides what you haw already given for tliinking that tluit branch of instruc- tion had better he undertaken by the colleges? — Yes. I think that tlie colleges would not only he able to provide by combination for the honour teaching in this school as in others, hut they would be able to afford to the laassmen, what is now denied to them, a modi- cum of information upon the more simple portions of scientific sulijects. Such teaching existed in Oxford in the days when I was an undergraduate. Professor Kohert Walker used to give lectures, but I think that this mode of teaching experimental physics has almost died out in Oxford altogether. The science of physics has gained very much from the change in the system that the present professor has adopted, but the amount of instruction in the subject which can be generally difl’used among the undergraduates has died out. 2228. Do you think it is expedient to require from passmen some knowledge in that class of subjects before taking a degree ? — I am not quite certain about that. 2229. You spoke just now of passmen. Does the present system, in your opinion, provide and ade- ([uately maintain as good a j)rovision as is practicable for passmen ? — I think that there is hardly any pro- vision at all, in Oxford, for the passmen in natural science except at one or two colleges. 2230. In other subjects does it do everything that could be done to elevate the instruction of ])ass.men generally? — I do not think the present system of teaching in natural science does so, except inciden- tally. 2231. 1 see that u))on this subject you propose to refer to some com])laints of the professoi’s ? — 'I’lie Chichele jirofessor of modern history in his answer to tlie Council drew attention to this subject, and professor Honamy Price, the professor of political economy, drew very marked attention to it in a paper which he circulated under the title of “ Oxford University Peform.” 2232. We understood from Professor Bonamy Price, who did us the favour to come here, that he was for taking the whole teaching of classmen and passmen throughout the university into the hands of the uni- versity and out of the hands of the colleges. We understand you to differ from that opinion ? — What I wished to allege Professor Bonamy Price as a witness for was the fact that the professors do not think them- selves to be at present brought into sufBcient relation with the junior members of the university for edu- cational ])urposes. 2233. Do you think that there is a tendency to a species of rivalry between the tutorial system and the j)iofessorial system of teaching where they co-exist in one university ? — I would minimise that opposition by giving them separate functions. I think that it is the fact that the professors and the tutors are, if I may say so, more or less touting for the undergraduates that has produced the present state of things. 2234. Y"ou have noted down under the next head of evidence upon that point the deprecation of found- ing new professorships unless you provide them with pupils ; deprecation by whom ? — Partly by members of the House of Commons in a debate which took place there, and partly by persons resident in Ox- ford. 223.5. In your opinion could they be provided with pupils exceut bv some destruction or transfer of the collegiate system of teaching? — I think that any mode of providing them with pupils preparing for degree examinations would be likely to be disastrous. 2236. Y'ou also refer to the returtis ordered by Par- liament on the motion of Lord Francis Hervey. I supiiose that is as to the numbers of the classes ? — Quite so. 2237. And then you have a note as to the committee of Council on the position of professors. To what do you exactly refer ? — On the 30th October 1 876 Mr. Ince of Exeter College gave notice “ To move for a “ committee on the reports of Certain Boards of Study “ as to the ]>roposal of giving to the professors a “ recognised place in university examinations and to “ consider the feasibility of any other methods for “ bringing the ]>rofessors into direct relation with the “ studies oi’ the junior members of the university.” The motion was agreed to on November the 6th, and a committee was nominated accordingly, composed of The Vice-Chancellor, Mr. luce. Professors Palmer and Burrows, Professor Smith, the senior proctor, and the j)vesident of Trinity. The committee were unable to recommend giving the professors a recognised place in the university examinations, and did not see their way to suggesting any method for bringing the pro- fessors into direct relation with the studies of the junior members of the university, and so made no report. 2238. {Prof. Smith.) Will you tell us, if you can, what were the proposals intended to effect that object which were made and rejected ? — One was that every examining board should have a professor on it. Ano- ther was that the attendance at a professor’s lectures should be a preliminary requisite for oft'ering himself for examination on the part of a candidate ; and there were others. 2239. {Chairman.) I suppose you do not mean that it was considered imj)Ossible to give the professors an influence upon the examinations, but that it was thought inexpedient to do so ? — Quite so. 2240. Several gentlemen whom we have seen take a dift’erent view of the matter, and strongly advocate putting professors upon the board ? — I think that such a ju'oeeeding would, from one [)oint of view, (not from my point of view,) be beneficial to the professoriate, hut I think that it would destroy the examination. 2241. Perhaps you will develope that a little further and state your reasons for thinking so?— The way, I think, in which it would work would be that the students would attend the professor's lectures, because they thought that by doing so they would get a benefit in tlie examination ; they would imagine, truly or falsely, probably erroneously, that they would secure a better class by attending a pro- fessor’s lectures. There would also be a risk of the subject being examined in, not in its length and breadth as it would present itself to an independent student, but in the way in which it had been treated in the professor’s lectures. The university examinations would become something like the college collections. 2242. Is the present system entirely free from that defect in its practical operation? — I cannot speak for the school of Natural Science. 2243. Is it not the practice for the proctors or the vice-chancellor, or some of them, to nominate tlie tutors of their own colleges as examiners ? — I do not think that the vice-chancellor or any proctor would nominate a tutor of his own college because he was a tutor of his own college, 2244. Y'ou do not think that that consideration would have any influence '? — I cannot say how far it might influence the consideration, but I take it that the vice-chancellor and the proctors would in all cases wish to appoint the best man ; they might know more about a tutor of their own college, being a person with whom they are brought into contact. 2245. Supposing they tliought that a tutor of their own college was a fit man, would they enter into anyr close comparison between his fitness and that of the members of other colleges ? — I cannot speak for other people, but I should wish to do so. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 137 ^2246. {Prof. Smith.) Is not that commonly alleged as an objection against the college tutors examining in the schools? — Yes; and it seems to me a very fallacious objection. College tutors examine the pupils of their rivals, other college tutors. 224-7. Is it not commonly represented as an advan- tage to a college that its tutors should from time to time be examiners in the examinations of the uni- versity ? — I think it is, and it is true that it is advan- tageous to a college to have in its turn its tutors as examiners because of the intimate acquaintance with the kind of )u-cparation and study of the subject which is needed in a particular examination, and is more easily acquired than it can be accpiired in another way by actual participation in tbe work ot examination. 2248. {Chairman.) Will you state for what reasons it would be an evil that a direction should be given by the teacher to the studies of those who are to be examined, with a view to their examination? — I think it would be supposed that a man’s class would be affected by his having attended the lectures. 2249. Do you think that there is any foundation for that idea? — No ; I do not think so, but I believe that feeling would never be eradicated. 22,50. By direction of their studies you mean what would be recognised in the course of the examination. Do you think that that would be an evil or a good thing in itself? — I do not know whether your Lord- ship means direction by the professor. 22,7 1. Do you think it better in itself that the teaching should be given by a person who would be able to make the examination bear a certain relation to his teaching ? — I do not. The examination is expected to be a test of general ability and attain- ment of the subject, and not merely or mainly a test of industry. 2252. {Prof. Smith.) Do you or do you not think that at the present time the students of a college which happens to have an examiner of its own in the schools have any advantage in the examination in consequence of that being so. 1 do not of course mean on account of any partiality on the side of the examiner, but on account of the direction and ten- dency of the examination coinciding with the mode of treatment of the subject to which they have been accustomed in the lectures that they have attended ? — I can only speak of examinations which I have had myself to conduct, viz., responsions and mode- rations, the pass final school examination, the exami- nation in the rudiments of faith and religion, and the Liter® Humaniores School. I do not think it is any advantage to a student to have an examiner from his own college in any of those. 2253. That may be the fact, but I refer to the parallel case which you yourself indicated. Does not the feeling exist, and is it not difficult to eradicate ? — Very likely. 2254. {Chairman.) I see that if it were desired you would be prepared to apply your general view to particular and separate schools. If there is any parti- cular remark as to any school which occurs to you to be useful to suggest, we are quite ready to hear it? — I was thinking principally of natural science, and I liave already said what I wish to say upon that head about the incidental advantages to be derived by the under-graduates from the colleges taking up that subject. 2255. {Prof. Smith.) The subject of instruction in natural science would naturally divide itself, as I think you have divided it, into the instruction of the passmen and of the classmen ? — Yes. 2256. I would ask you to take in the first place the question of the instruction of the classmen ; have you considered the difficulties in the way of providing even by a combination among the colleges the plant that would be requisite for the purpose of giving such instruction as you must give to classmen ?— I am not an expert in natural science ; but so far as 1 have been able, I have given attention to that subject. 2257. Then you must be aware that if you take Q 0823. in the first place the biological branches of natural science you would require for that instruction a com- paratively extensive series of anatomical preparations, would you not ? — I believe so. 2258. The reason for that is, is it not, that you cannot confine your instruction in the case of class- men to any limited department of the subject, but must allow a certain free choice as you do in the other schools ? — I should have thought that in a subject to be examined in, it was desirable that a certain portion of it should be taught very precisely. 2259. That is true, but your own experience of the School of Liter® Humaniores proves, does it not, that although you may endeavour to limit tlie scope of the examination, still it remains a very wide subject, and must ramify in several different directions ? — I do not suppose that the students of colleges would under any circumstances be debarred from access to the collec- tions in the university museum. 2260. Then I understand you to wish in the case of natural science to maintain for the classmen the dual system of instruction both in the university and in the colleges ? — I am less familiar with the subject of natural science than with any other ; but I can understand that incidentally the professor, mainly devoting himself to the extension of the subject and the instruction of the more advanced and really dis- interested students, would be able to benefit incidentally those students whose attention was being directed to a specific examination. 2261. I rather wish to direct your attention to the difficult nature of the task, — a most important one if it can be carried out, — which you evidently intend to impose upon the colleges ; that is the point which I wish to press upon you ? — I take it for granted that the colleges will be called uj)on to expend a good deal of money upon tbe study of natural science, and I think as far as preparation for degree examinations is concerned it is desirable that that money should be spent in such a way as would enable them to exercise the same control over their students whilst studying natural science as they are able to do in all the other subjects. 2262. You feel, do you not, that at present it is a considerable evil that a student who devotes himself to natural science is very much withdrawn from the control and advice of his college ? — I do. 2263. Passing then to the question of the instruc- tion of passmen you consider, do you not, that it would be very easy for the colleges to supply all that is requisite by combination amongst themselves ? — Yes, I think so. Something has been done in that direction already by some colleges. 2264. Can you mention the colleges at which tha has been done ? — Magdalen, Merton, Exeter, and Trinity. 2265. {Chairman.) Is that the case also in Christ Church ? — Yes, Christ Church teaches passmen and classmen fully. 2266. {Prof. Smith.) Agreeing with the opinion that the instruction of passmen in natural science is a most important object, I would ask whether, in your opinion, it might not be desirable and possible that the university should provide thoroughly good courses of lectures on those branches of natural science which may reasonably form a part of every liberal education. Do you not think that in the nature of the subject there are reasons which would give some advantage to that proposal as compared with the projDosal of leaving it, as such subj ects are left at present, to the college tutors ? — I think there are reasons in favour of almost any course ; but I think the preponderating reasons, at least the reasons that preponderate in my own mind, are in favour of entrusting this duty to the colleges. I think it quite likely that the university might provide courses for passmen in those subjects, and that they might not be attended, and that the colleges would not provide them unless they were attended, and would see that they were attended. 2267. {Chairman.) That is to say their attendance would be compulsory in the case of the colleges ? — S OXFORD Jtev. J. It. Mayrath,M.A 29 Oct. 1877. 138 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. J. R. MagralhyiM.A. 29 Oct. 1877. Yes. Tlie attention of the students would be inore directed to it. 1 think that comi)ulsion is almost at an end in Oxford with regard to almost any lectures. There is hardly any absolute compulsory attendance at lectures. 2268. Do you mean that if a student chose to go to no lectures at all he would be at liberty to do so ? — No, he would not be at liberty to do that, but very considerable liberty is left M'ith him in choosing whom he will go to. 2269 {Prof. Sinith.) Even in the case of passmen ? — It is less so in the case of passmen than in the case of classmen. 2270. {Mr. Bernard.') You mean, perhaps, that students are not required, as they were, to go to the lectures of one lecturer more than to those of another ? — If a student ]>rofesses at present his willingness to provide himself with instruction in any portion of a subject requisite for the School of Passmen he would, in most colleges, be allowed to do so, and be exempted from attending those lectures in the college. 2271. How do y'ou mean that he may provide him- self? — By taking a private tutor. 2272. Is that the case generally in the colleges ? — I cannot say^ We know very little of one another. 2273. That would be so in your own college? — Yes, I think so. 2271. It would be rather a large induction from that, would it not, to say that compulsion was at an end in Oxford ? — Compulsion in the old sense, as I remember it when I was an undergraduate, is, I take it, quite at an end ; the undergraduate is encouraged to come and reason with his tutor as to his lectures if it appears to him desirable or expedient to do so. In the old days compulsoiy attendance at lectures was a college regulation quite as much as not smoking in the Quadrangle ; it is only in that sense tliat I wish to say that compulsion is at an end. 2275. ( Chairman.) The same moral influence of the tutors which might enable them to secure attendance at college lectures might also enable them to secure attendance at the ])rofessorial lectures if they thought fit to use it, might it not ? — That is true ; but the tutors would be less acquainted with the character of the lectures given throughout the university than they would of the lectures of which it was their busi- ness to ascertain the general character. 2276. If the university provided lectures for classes in natural science subjects, do you think that the tutors of any college who were acquainted with the subject would not be acquainted with the character of the university lectures ? — The direction of the students is not in all cases assigned to persons who are ac- (|uainted with the subject. It is not every college which can provide on its own staff a sufficient number of tutors in all the subjects. 2277. But the tutor would ex hypothesi advise the student to go to some competent instructor under the intercollegiate system, would he not, and would not the same knowledge necessarily enable him, if there were equally good or better instructors provided by the university, to appreciate that instruction and to recommend his pupils to go to it? — I think the question is not so much about the absolute excellence in those subjects as their adaptation to the persons who are to attend the lectures. The colleges would have to some extent to see that the quality of the teaching was adapted to the wants of the students, !ind they would have no power of doing that with i-eference to the university teachers. 2278. Why would they not have the power; would they not be able, if they' pleased, to go themselves or to ascertain from others ? — They would not be able to get the university lecturer to alter his mode of lecturing, which they would be able to do 'with reference to one of their own lecturers. 2279. Supposing that there were five or six colleges associated together, and that in the combination there was a particular lecturer in chemistry', would any one of those colleges be able to get the lecturer in chemistry to modify his lectures ? — I think so. 2280. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you }>rovide for instruc" tion in law in Queen’s College ? — We do. 2281. Would you say that it was sufficient ? — Yes. 2282. I mean in Queen’s itself? — It is done by combination. We have a law lecturer who looks after the work of the men and directs them what lectures to attend. He is in combination w'ith other lecturers. 2283. Is he a Queen’s man? — No. 228I. In how many subjects do you provide college instruction for your men ? — In all subjects, except natural science. 2285. In history, do you ? — Yes, in the same way ; we pay the lecturer. 2286. How' far are your students instructed by members of your own college, and in what branches? — I do not suppose that they are completely instructed in any branch in our college itself. The combination system prevails so largely' that I should hardly think any individual goes through his course without going to the lectures of some other college whose lecturer is in relation with his college, and is part of the educational system of the college. 2287. {Prof. Smith.) Are you now speaking of passmen or of classmen ? — Of both. 2288. {Mr. Bernard.) Taking, for instance, the subject of law, with w'hat college is Queen’s in com- bination in that subject? — Our lecturer is Mr. Wilson, of Exeter ; he is lecturer also at St. John’s, at Exeter, at Keble, and other places. 2289. He takes Queen’s men together with men from other colleges, I presume ? — He is lecturer at Queen’s and lecturer at the other colleges. It is quite possible that in any given term any one man might not attend any of his lectures at all, but attend other lectures to which he was directed to go. Mr. Wilson is responsible to us that the men are sufficiently taught in legal subjects, and we have every reason to believe that they are sufficiently taught. One man obtained a first class in a year and a half’s reading. 2290. With reference to that point, in what respect does Mr. Wilson differ from a university reader other than in this, that he is appointed by a college, and that his lectures are not open (supposing that they are not open) to the members of colleges not within this particular combination ? — He is brought into personal relations with all the men ; he receives papers from all of them, w'hich you could not require a university reader to do ; and if we wore not satisfied with tlie progress of the men we should employ someone else. 2291. {Dr. Bellamy.) Does he report to you terminally upon the progress of the men separately ? — l"es, in every term. 2292. {Mr. Bernard.) Would the same principle apply to one of the college lecturers in other subjects? — In some of the other subjects the intercollegiate lecturers perform a different function ; for instance in the Litersp Humaniores School, there is a larger list of lecturers than there is in law’, and there we should not be under the necessity of enqfioying someone else, but we should direct the students to otlier persons in the same list, if we were not satisfied, or thought that the men did not or would not derive benefit from any one of the lectures which happened to be given. 2293. The particular influence that you exercise, for instance, over, we will say, the lecturer in law is that you w’ould pay to him the tuition fees, or some portion of the tuition fees ? — We pay him a salary. 2294. {Prof. Smith.) In several subjects of uni- versity instruction, I may say in all those which are not studied by a great number of men, would not the system which you advocate come to this, that four or five colleges w’ould combine and obtain the services in common of some external lecturer, possibly external to them all, to perform certain duties? — Yes. 2295. That would not be the intercollegiate system in the sense in which it is applied in the Literae Humaniores School ? — Not precisely. 2296. But you would be trusting the choice of the lecturers, and the direction of the courses of instruc- tion in those subjects, to bodies composed of persons not very well acquainted with the subjects them- • UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 139 selves ? — I .) You would leave it to the uni- versity to elect professors, but you would not require that they should be expressly represented ? — Just so. 2336. Then with regard to the financial or admi- nistrative delegacies, would you exclude them from those? — I think it is undesirable that they should be on them. 2337. You would absolutely exclude them from those functions as interfeiing with the duties of pro- fessors? — If I had the construction of the university I should. 2338. {Prof. Smith.) Do you think that they should be excluded even from the educational delegacies, such as the Delegacy for Local Examinations, and the joint boaid of the two universities ? — I think that they would be very valuable as assessors on them ; but being specialists I do not think that they would be good judges as to the comparative merits for educa- cationai purposes of one subject over another. 2339. {Chairman.) You would not put them on boards of studies ? — Not except as assessors. 2340. Would you allow them to hold college offices ? — Not any non-educational office. 2341. Would you allow them to be college tutors as well as professors ? — I am not sure. I think per- haps on the whole it would be better not, but 1 am uot so certain about that. I think that there is a certain advantage, so far as it goes, to the teachers of the university that they should be brought of neces.sity into contact with individual students. 2342. If they were college tutors, who were making learning and science their primary object, would that be interfered with ? — It might be, and that is why I hesitated. 2343. Would you allow them to be heads of colleges ? — No. 2344. Would you require residence in all cases? — Y"es. 2345. Without exception ?— I think so, in the case of any person holding the office of a professor repre- senting a subject. 2346. Would you in any way connect them with the library of the university? — Yes. I think that they should have au effective voice in determining what books in their subjects should be bought by the Bodleian, and what plant of various kinde connected Avith those subjects sliould be added to the university museum. 2347. Would you pass them through any probation before they were made professors ? — Y"es, 1 think that the scheme of readers wdiich the Council recommend would enable the electors to professorships to secure sufficiently that the professors that were appointed were really devoted to their subjects, and really capable of dealing with them. 2348. Having proved their qualifications in those capacities, they might be elected professors ? — Yes. 2349. Would you make their tenure of office depend upon any subsequent tests after they had been elected to their professorships? — Obedience to the statutes of their chairs, residence, and so on. 2350. Perhaps you will now explain how those conditions w'ould prevent the professorships from becoming sinecures P — I think if care was taken that the persons elected to professorships were really devoted to their subjects and capable of dealing with them, there wmuld be no risk of their becoming sinecures. 2351. Do you think that to a man who had worked very hard and was receiving 400/. a year, there would be no risk of his becoming idle if he had 1,000/. for life ? — I would not wish to put it in that lA'ay. A man might work very hard upon 400/. a year who yet was quite obviously not devoted to his subject, and that has been very largely the case in Oxford. We have had a number of professors who have worked very hard at their subject while they held their pro- fessorship, who have obviously not been at all devoted to it, nor ready to give up their lives to that subject. 2352. With regard to this conception of yours about devoting himself to the subject, would it be very easy for the board of electors to put him to any practical test ? — I do not think that persons resident in Oxford and conver.-ant with tbe pcrsojinel of the university would have any difficulty in selecting quite a sufficient number of such professors. 2353. Y"ou think that there Avould be no difficulty in selecting men who when they had got a professor- ship would be as enthusiastic in work as they had been before ? — I do not think there would be any difficulty. 2354. There would be many candidates, w ould there not, for professorships under those circumstances ? — I do not think so, at least not candidates who would have any chance. 2355. Y'ou evidently have great confidence in the board which would be formed ? — The selection of that board of course would be a very difficult point. 2356. Would a numerous board of electors be per- vaded with the same enthusiasm which you suppose the professor ought to have ? — I should trust that the board of electors would not be numerous. 2357. Would it be an easy thing to constitute and keep up a small board who would have the discern- ment necessary for your purpose ? — It would not be easy, but I do not think it would be impossible. 2358. Can you suggest how you Avould constitute such a board? — Yes ; it should consist of five persons who should be elected by the congregation of the university, one should go out of office every year, and in that way the congregation would be able to show UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 141 by its action that it approved of their proceedings during the year. 2;>59. ( Earl of Redcsdalc.) Would they be capable of re-election ? — Yes. 2360. (Cliairma)/.) All that you have said is to be understood as applicable not to a fixed professoriate, if I may use the expression, hut to one in which in- dividuals are to he chosen on account of their special fitness ? — Quite so. 2361. So that if we may take for example the sub- ject of geometry, it would not be necessary always to have a professor of geometry ? — No ; you might have two if you had two specialists of sufficient merit. 2362. 1 see you say that importance should be given, c(Btcris pai'ihus, to a subject not already represented in the professoriate, but that there should be no objection to multiply professors if the right men are found in the same subject ? — Quite so. 2363. Then with regard to lectures, would you require anything definite as to them? — I am not quite certain that in some subjects at all events it might not be desirable to prescribe solemn or elaborate lectures, very few in number, to be given during the year ; orations I mean, more than of the nature of catechetical lectures ; and that those might he com- pounded for by a published dissertation, or an instal- ment of a book. 2364. Which would he a formal exercise, I suppose ? — I am not very keen upon this, but one complaint against my scheme would be that it does not provide sufficient safeguards, and this is an additional safe- guard so far as it goes. 2365. Do you seriously consider that an oration or an instalment of a book would be any safeguard at all ? — I think that your specialist would consider that he had the eyes of his brethren in Germany and else- where upon him, and he would not wish to disgrace himself. 2366. I think in the College of Physicians either the president or some one of their leadingmen delivers an oration called the Harveian oration. Do you sup- pose that proves anything but his capacity of writing Latin ? — This would not be in Latin. 1 fancy that some of those Harveian orations possess intrinsic worth, 2367. But as a rule you would not take that as a test, would you ? — I do not know. 1 always thought that those orations which were given by the chief medical men in London possessed intrinsic value. 2368. In Oxford there have been public orations given in the theatre ? — The representative of the late public orator thinks them of such value that he proposes to publish them. 2369. (il/r. Bernard.) Do you think that there is any subject now studied in the University which has not sensibly benefited by the instruction given by the professors. I will take them one by one, if you please. Do you not think, for instance, that the study of moral philosophy in Oxford has sensibly benefited by the professorial teaching given by the professors in it } — I do certainly. 2370. Do you think that the study of history has sensibly benefited by professorial teaching ? — Cer- tainly, by the teaching of persons who have been professors. 2371. Is that your opinion also with regard to the study of Latin ? — Y"es. 2372. And the study of Greek ? — Y’’es. 2373. And the study of comparative philology ? — Yes ; so far as 1 know, they all of them have benefited. 2374. Then the absence of that separation which you desire to see has not prevented the professoriate from materially advancing all the various studies which are pursued in Oxford ? — No. 2375. I am not quite clear, even now, how you pro- pose to secure that definite separation of functions which you spoke of at first ? — I do not suppose, practically speaking, that the separation of them would be definite. My object was rather to develope my theory that hitherto the teaching of the undergraduates has been regarded as the primary duty of the pro- fessors, and that in my opinion that should not be the primary duty. 2376. You would surely desire that the under- graduates should resort to the lectures of the pro- fessors P^Yes, and I think they would. 2377. It is of the greatest service, is it not, to men who are passing through their most active years of study, when the attention is keen and keenly excited, to attend the lectures of an eminent person who lectures well and has given his mind to the subject? — Especially so. 2378. Do you think that the lectures given bv the present professors or by the professors whom you have known would be materially altered in character if your view were adopted ? — I think they would be. I do not think that the professors of metaphysical philo- sophy would be always lecturing upon the Ethics of Aristotle. 2379. The lectures of the regius professor of modern history, for instance, are lectures involving much research and study, are they not ? — It is invidious to express an opinion with regard to individuals with M’hom one is intimately associated, but I believe that the professor of modern history would prefer not to deliver lectures at all, and that the study of modern history would probably gain, because he would have more time for writing his books, which command a wider audience than the lectures which he delivers in the schools of the university. 2380. Should you not suppose, however, that he was attended by undergraduates, and probably by some of the best undergraduates, studying modern liistory ? — Certainly. 2381. Do you not think that an advantage to those undergraduates and to the study of modern history ? — Certainly ; but they would not be debarred under that system at all. 2382. If he were only to write books they would be debarred, would they not ? — But they would have access to him, he would be bound to be a resident, and they could go to him. 2383. But would he be bound to talk to them ? — I should certainly prescribe by statute that he should be. 2384. Do you really think that an undergraduate entitled by statute to go and talk to Professor Stubbs would derive the same advantage that he would by hearing a series of lectures on the old constitutional history of England by Professor Stubbs ? — I think in all probability he would derive greater advantage. He would read Professor Stubbs’ discoveries in con- stitutional history, and he would talk to Professor Stubbs about them upon Professor Stubbs’ own account of his labours, and not upon the student’s notes. 2385. The study of comparative philology^ in Ox- ford has been almost created, has it not, by a single professor ? — Y^es, I think so, m.ainly by his books. 2386. Were not the lectures of that professor, at one time at any rate, largely attended ? — Y’’es, I have attended them myself with great profit. 2387. When you were an undergraduate? — Y’es, attendance on professors’ lectures was then required. 2388. The present deputy professor of comparative philology probably attended Professor Max Muller’s lectures when he was an undergraduate ? — Probably he did. 2389. Other men who are now lecturing in colleges on comparative philology, or on classics from that point of view, also attended Professor Max Muller’s lectures, did they not? — Yes. 2390. But do you not think that those lectures which Professor Max Muller was bound to deliver, and which he did deliver, have tended to advance ma- terially the study of comparative philology in Oxford? — I do. 2391. And in fact to create a school of teachers in comparative philology in Oxford? — Just so, but men possessing Professor Max Miiller’s power of exjiosition would not be resident in Oxford, and require by statute to represent that particular subject without S 3 OXFORD, liev. J. R, MagrathjM.A. 29 Oct. 1877. 14-2 UNIVERSITY or OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. J. R. MayrathyM.A. 29 Oct. 1877. giving lecinres. He would give lectures even it' he were not required to do so, if he were really in- terested in the suhject. 2392. Do you think it desirable that he should give lectures? — Yes, if the quality of his mind, and if his intellectual character is such that he can profitably give lectures. 2393. You might ha\e appointed a person with the same knowledge of comparative philology as Professor Max Muller, but who would not give lectures ? — Yes ; and I should be very sorry if we could not get a pro- fessor like Professor Max IMiiller who could deliver lectures, that we should be deltarred from appointing a distinguished comparative philologist who would not draw a class. 2394'. If it was desirable that there should be university lectures on the subject, why should not he be required to deliver them ? — Because it is practi- cally rc(juisite to make all those regulations general, and 3 mu produce considerable inconvenience bj' com- pelling people to do a thing which they cannot do well. 2395. Can it he desirable that persons who with eminent advantage to the university may impart their knowledge should not be required in some way or other to inqtart it, thej' being persons paid by the university? — If thej' can do benefit to the university by imparting knowledge it is desirable that they should impart it, but 1 am not sure that in all cases it would he desirable to make that a condition of the tenure of their professoriate. 2396. There are several subjects which have graduall}' penetrated into the university course, so to say, such as comparative philology, and I may add also, political economy, and perhaps I may also add modern history ; should jmu not say it was the fact that it was through attendance on the lectures in those subjects which were delivered originally' by veiy eminent men to persons statu pupillari that those subjects have attained their present recognition and power in Oxford? — I have not been in Oxford long enough to remember the time when law, modern history, and natural science were added to the curriculum of the university, hut I have been here long enough to remember the introduction of theology. I am sure that theology was not brought into the curriculum of the university on those grounds. I could not give evidence about the other three, because I do not know what the condition of Oxford with regard to those studies was before the schools were founded. 2397. Has not the increasing force of these subjects in university examinations been due in part to the lectures delivered in Oxford, mostly attended by the undergraduates ? — I think that those subjects are under great obligations to the gentlemen who have held professorships in them, but I do not think it was because they were professors. 2398. Political economy is more studied in Oxford, is it not, than it was as a subject of examination in the schools? — Yes, because it is supposed to be the easiest subject for passmen to offer. 2399. Do not you think that it is a useful study ? — Yes, but that is not the reason why it is studied ; but because it is supposed to be easy. 2400. Does the university help this useful study ? — Yes. 2401. Do 3 'ou think it ever would have attained its present place in the university examinations had it not been for the lectures of clevei' and active men in political economy ? — I should not like to give an o])inion. My own impression is quite the other way'. The person who would speak most strongly against the introd\mtion of political economy into the uni- versity curriculum is a former professor of political economy'. 2402. That would not prove anything against my question ; it would only prove that the professor of political economy did not think it a proper subject for examination ? — I do not know that the lectures of the professors of political economy have contributed to make it a pojnilar subject at Oxford, or to its intro- duction into the University schools. 2403. {Prof. Smith.') Are you at all afraid that if theie was not a professorial system of instruction by the side of the college system there might not be a sufficient clement of the necessary change from time to time in the subjects of university and college teaching ?— I think there would be a sufficient change. 2404. Do you think that the colleges themselves would be likely enough to introduce fresh subjects from time to time as the requirements of the country called for them ? — Quite so. 2405. Do you think that the requirement of 2f lectures in the year, which is the number contemplated in most of the professorial statutes is an excessive amount ? — On the present theory of the professoriate I do not think it is too much, but that has no bearing on my theory of the professoriate. 2406. But if you impose any lecturing duties upon them at all, you do not think that 24 lectures w'ould be excessive ? — No ; I indicated that if it were thought requisite to lay any lecturing duties upon them at all, an occasional elaborate study or lecture or dissertation would be better than courses of lectures. 2407. Do y'ou consider that the amount of duty and the amount of time that would have to be devoted to giving 24 lectures in the y'ear can be pleaded as any' excuse for a professor’s not working at the ad- vancement of his subject whilst he occupies a pro- fessorial chair ? — No. 2408. Y’ou think that in the case of an active energetic man that amount of occupation of his time ought not to be a positive hindrance ? — Not if he is the kind of man to give lectures at all. 2409. Do you not think it likely that a specialist who is, if I may say so, running over w'ith his favourite suhject, would not be able to discourse about it with great ease for that limited number of hours in tlie year? — Not always so as to attract a class. One of the most distinguished seholars in the univer- sity at the present moment is unable to keep together a class on any subject whatever. 2410. Do you not think that a class of two or three in a special subject would be an adequate reward for a pj'ofessor’s pains ? — Certainlv* 2411. Provided that the instruction is such as is really' useful to them, and of a kind that they could not obtain elsewhere ? — I should not make those limita- tions. 2412. {Chairman.) Then wc come to the subject of poor and deserving students. What do you think would be the best way of encouraging poor and deserving students ? — By the utilisation of the present public halls in the university- 2413. Perhaps you will explain what you mean by poor and deserving students ? — Poor students 1 do not suppose needs explanation, but by deserving students I mean students of sufficient intellectual quality' to warrant public money being spent upon facilitating their obtaining a degree. 2414. What alteration would you make in the hall system to enable them to answer that purpose ?— I would closely associate them with separate colleges. 2415. One hall is at present associated with your own, is it not ? — Not completely ; but there would be no difficulty in so associating it. 2416. To take St. Edmund Hall, for example, what are the changes which you think desirable in order to associate it more closely' with y'our college ? — The administration of them should be worked as one, just as the teaching is already. 2417. That is to say, your college provides teach- ing for the hall, does it not ? — The hall and the college provide teaching for the hall and the college jointly. 2418. How could you ensure the separation of the poor students to whom economy is a great object from the others in that combined system ? — By separating them locally; the poor students would live in the hall, and go to chapel and hall in the hall. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 143 2419. But. you would cstablisli in the liall a dis- tinctly economical .'^ystein ? — -Yes. 2420. According to any example now existing in the university, or upoti some stricter rule ? — Accord- ing to an example now existing in the university, but somewhat stricter than exists in any college at present. 2421. Is there sumptuary regulation in some halls already? — Yes, but it could not be completely managed, because the halls do not profess at present to be exclusively places of education for poor and deserving students. 2422. Do you think that the system of organi- sing the halls under good sumptuary regulations would be better than that of unattached students ? — I do. 2423. Has the system of unattached students in your opinion succeeded or failed ? — It has succeeded in many respects, but it has failed in respect of pro- viding for poor students who are at the same time deserving in the sense that I use the word “deserving.’’ 2424. Y'ou mean that it has attracted those who are not deserving in the sense in which you use the word ; that is to say, not such as can be beneficially attracted to the university ? — It attracts all kinds to the uni- versity, and it keeps those whom I should describe as certainly not poor or not deserving. 2425. It is the fact that unattached students migrate to the colleges ? — Yes, the deserving ones. 2426. That class whom you wish to provide for have a tendency to become members of colleges ? — They have. 2427. Is that by obtaining exhibitions and scholar- ships ? — Not in all or in the majority of cases, but by migrating from the unattached system to the colleges. 2428. So that a residuum is left of the kind whom you would describe as not well suited for university education ? — At any particular time there would not be that residuum because there would be deserving students who had not found out that the unattached system was not adapted to them. 2429. What becomes eventually of those who do not go to colleges or for whom the system is not well adapted : — Will they take their degrees, or leave the university vrithout degrees ? — Some of them will take their degrees, but only a limited number I should say. 2430. Do the rest leave without ? — No, I think they will stay on, or some of them. 2431. I presume that there are no regulations of the university tending to terminate their residence if they do not get a degree? — No, there are none. There is one unattached student who has been a member of the university on the unattached system since the 21st of October 1871 without passing an examination, and there is another since the 16th of November the same year, and so on. 2432. Can you suggest any explanation of that; with what object do they I’emain, is it for the pleasure of life in Oxford, or for what other object ? — They are very various. 2433. [Prof Smith.) Do you know whether those gentlemen have resided ? — The first one has resided 1 1 terms ; the second one had kept all his terms before migrating to the care of the unattached students ; the one who matriculated in 1872 has kept 12 terms — after keeping 1 2 terms the censors do not keep account. 2434. [Chairtna7i.) Is he in residence ? — Yes, the gentleman who matriculated in 1872 was in residence till quite recently. 2435. Has he been constantly in residence ? — Yes, I believe so. 2436. Do you think they live as cheaply or more cheaply than they could in the halls which you pro- pose to organise for them ? — Some of them can live more cheaply. There are no limits to the cheapness with which a man can live who is prepared to deny himself. 2437. What status would you give to the head of the hall ? — I would give him his university status. I think that would be desirable for more than one reason. In the first place it has been said in Oxford that poverty is regarded in a rich country like England as criminal, and there would be a danger of disparage- ment of the members of the hall which one would wish to counteract as far as possible, and it would be to some extent counteracted by giving the heads of the halls an honorary status in the university such as they at present enjoy. Also the fact of the antiquity of the hall as a j)lace of education would plead in favour of its retention. 2438. When you say honorary status, has it no power in the university now connected with it? — Yes, I think they have the right of being elected members of Council as heads of houses, and they have a vote for the election of Dean Ireland’s professor. 2439. How should the head of the hall be elected ? — He should be elected by the governing body of the college. 2440. And should he himself be a member of that body? — Yes, after election, even if not before. 2441. What should be his special duties in the hall ? — The duties of a head of a college towards the undergraduates, and especially that of maintaining the sumptuary regulations. 2442. Would the accounts of the hall be brought into the general accounts of the college ? — I do not know whether they would be brought into the accounts, but they should be kept by the same person. If it was thought desirable to keep them separate they might be so kept, but the bursar should keep them, and they should be audited in the same way. At present the accounts of the hall are regarded as private, and are not audited at all. 2443. Would you provide for the superannuation of such heads of halls ? — Yes. 2444. By pensions ? — Yes, or by allowing them to retain their fellowship, or whatever way may be thought best in regard to similar offices in the colleges or the university. 2445. What would be the advantage of that system over the present condition of a hall ? — It would be a security for permanence in the condition of the hall that it has not now. The condition of the hall is entirely dependent upon the head. And they would be brought under tlie control of the University Com- mittee of the Privy Council by their connexion with the college, and so they would be more public than they are at present. 2446. Taking all the existing halls, what number of students could be accommodated in that way within the halls; would it be a considerable number? — .100 I should think, 2447. The number of unattached students at present is about 300, is it not ? — I believe so. 2448. Is it part of your plan lhat the halls should be enabled to enlarge their limits ? — I should think it would certainly be quite easy to enlarge St. Edmund Hall. There are buildings adjoining which apparently have been collegiate buildings, and which are the property of Magdalen College. Queen’s College has also property abutting on the quadrangle of the hall. 2449. However, with any capacity of local enlarge- ment which may exist in some of the halls, you would soon come to the end of your margin of possible in- ci'ease, would you not ? — 1 think very few persons who are at present unattached students would be found on examination to be poor and deserving in the sense in which I use the word. 2450. Of course you do not propose to alter the system of unattached students ? — Not at all. 2451. In fact, this is a plan for increasing the utility of the public halls!’ — Yes, and for encouraging education among the poor and deserving. 2452. Would you establish any scholarships of exhibitions for that class of students specially ? — I should take it that all the members of the halls would be subsidised in some way or other. 2453. Would you explain that? — They would pro- bably have their tuition cheaper. I should have thought that would be a convenient way of doing it. 2453a. In addition to that, would you think it de- sirable to establish exhibitions or scholarships which S 4 OXFORD. Rev. .7. R. Ma(jrath,M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. 144 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev J. R. Mayrath,M.A 29 Oct. 1877. after properly applying a test of poverty shoultl he given by competition or in any other way to that class of students ? — I should make all the members of the hall amenable to examination of that kind. I should exact from them also a higher matriculation standard than the ordinary undergraduate is subject to. 2454. That is an important point, hut not my point; my (juestion was whether you thought it desirable to give them sj)ecial encouragement by founding scholar- ships or exhibitions for the poorer class of students ? — - I should try and find room in the lialls for all poor and deserving students who were not of superior intellectual (|uality. I think that the colleges at present provide suflicientl}' for the poorer deserving students of superior intellectual quality. 2455. You think that no other encouragement is desirable except that which would he afforded by the cheapness of the halls? — 1 do not think that any other is necessary. Until I had other schemes before me I should not like to say that no other is desirable. 2456. It has been proposed by some gentlemen to establish a certain number of exhibitions to he given to any of the students in the university who could satisfy a hoard beforehand that they were in want of that kind of assistance. Would you think itdesiralile to establish such exhibitions which might be available to unattached students and to students in the halls ? — j\Ir. Kitchin deprecates the founding of exhibitions for unattached students. He says, “ The money given “ would often be used as a means to enable the holder “ to struggle away from us ; and thus it would defeat “ to a large extent its object.” He gives three reasons why exhibitions should not be given for the sustenance of unattached students in page 9 of his j)amphlet. 2457. {Mr. Bernard.) ITow do you propose that the tuition of the members of the hall should be paid for ? — Out of the revenues of the college. 2458. That is to say out of the corporate revenues of the college as distinct from the payments for tuition by members of the college ? — Yes. 2459. Perhaps you understood that the question was not with reference to exhibitions founded solely for unattached students but for students in need of assistance, whether unattached or attached to colleges ; or did you not understand it ? — I do not thiidc that the colleges if not encouraged should be debarred from founding exhibitions ibr students who are poor and al.so deserving. 2460. But that they should be encouraged on the contrary to do it ? — 1 am not quite sure. I think there is something to be said on both sides. 2461. Would you say that they should not be encou- raged, or should be encouraged ? — I thiidc they should not be debarred. I am not sure whether they should be encouraged. 2462. In cases where the qualification was to some extent a qualification of poverty ? — Yes, like the Bible clerkships at present. 2463. Have you any such foundations in Queen’s ? — We have two Bible clerks. There have, within the last few weeks, been two exhibitions founded con- nected with the college, for which need is one of the qualifications. 2464. Have you found it easy to make the necessary inquiries in such cases? — The inquiries hitherto has always been made by the provost, but I do not think he has felt any difficulty. 2465. (Chair man.) We have received a letter from you in which you state that you desire to suggest something as to the status with respect to extra collegiate duties and appointments of gentlemen who do the duty of the head of a college when the actual head has practically retired ; that, I believe, is )'our own position at present in your college ? — Yes. 2466. And it is also the position of the vice-provost of Oriel College ? — Yes. 2l()7. Would you let us know what you suggest iqiou that subject ? — Besides the duties which are per- I’ormed by the head of a college inside the college, there are other duties which belong to his office external to the college. He has the power of being an elected member of the Council, one of six who must be heads of colleges, he is one of the electors of the Bampton lecturer, he is one of the electors to other things in the university; besides those he has duties external to the university altogether, he has the nomination of the head masters of schools in some cases, he is trustee of charitable foundations and espe- cially (and this is the difficulty which caused me at this moment to trouble the Commission with my letter) of benefactions connected with the college for exhibi- tioners along with other persons sometimes. 2468. Y'ou think it desirable that, when he acts by a dej)uty for college purposes, the power of the deputy should extend to all those subjects ? — I should not like to express an opinion whether he should be eligible for the Council as a Head of a College, but I think that he should have all the other positions. 2469. (Mr. Bernard.) What in fact becomes of those duties ? — That is what I have been unable to settle. Hitherto, insuperable difficulty has not actually arisen in the case of either of the two colleges, because the heads are able to do some work; but in the case which is contemplated in the statutes of the head being imbecile or lunatic, I do not know what would have happened. 2470. Those powers which you mention do in fact at present remain annexed to the headship ? — That was the opinion of Sir Henry Cotton. 2471. And they do not pass to the deputy head ? — By inference from the opinion of Sir Henry Cotton, who was counsel for the university, that is the con- clusion to which the vice-provost of Oriel has come. The particular instance in which the difficulty has arisen is this : a benefaction was left last year to Queen’s College, of which the trustees were to be the Bishop of Carlisle, the executor of the will, and the provost of the college. The money left by the testator was mainly in Russian bonds, and application was made to the provost of the college, who might have been an imbecile or a lunatic, to con.sent that the security for that money should be in Russian bonds. 2472. (Chairman.) However, your suggestion is that it would be convenient if the acting-provost had those duties devolving upon him and all necessary powers for their performance, except that you do not wish to express a decided opinion whether he should be in the position of titular head of the house in the Council of the university ? — Just so. The witness withdrew. Rev. W. Ince, M.A. The Kev. William Ince, M.A. (Sub-Rector of Exeter College), examined. 2473. (Chairman.) Will you state your opinion generally as to the effect of the considerable increase of the professorial system by new profe.ssors and readers which has been recommended by the Hebdomadal Council r — I am myself a member of the Council although I was not on the committee which drew up that re{)ort; the impression produced on my mind then, as it also remains now, was that the recom- mendations are on far too large a scale for such a numerous body of professors and readers to amalga- mate harmoniously with the existing arrangements of teaching by the college tutors. 2474. Do you consider that the difficulty of reconciling the two systems would apply mainly to the professors or to the readers ? — Chiefly to the readers, I imagine. 2475. The readers you would consider to be a class of teachers whose duties would be very similar to those of college tutors? — Yes, as the modern ITNIVERSITY OF OXFOllT) COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 145 system of college tutors is, rather varying from what was die old system. ‘2476. So far, I suppose, as relates to classmen ? — I am thinking sjK'cially of classmen, and of course understanding it to apply more to general literary and classical subjects than to subjects like (hose of natural science. 2477. You think that those two systems could hardly be reconciled to each other, the collegiate and the professorial, if the professoriate were so largely extended? — Not if it was intended that the actual education of the undergraduates was to be in the hands of a j)rofessoriate of proflissors and readers, if they were to have large classes, and if it is to he practically understood that the education of the mass of the undergraduates is to be provided by them. 2478. If the collegiate system remained as at present, including the combined lectures, is it likely that the professors and the readers would have large classes? — No, I do not think it very probable. 2479. You would be appointing, in the readers at ail events, a second set of tutors to do the same work ? — I think very much so. At present by the arrangement as to combined lectures many of the leading tutors are virtually acting as readers in the sense contemplated, only they are more in direct relation with the colleges, and there is more com- munication with the representatives of the same subjects in a college than I think there would be if it were taken out of the bauds of the colleges and a general university scheme introduced. 2480. Do you think that there are advantages in the present system over any which would be obtained by transferring it entirely to the university P — Yes, because there is much more possibility of direct catechetical instruction and of paying attention to individual cases than there can be In the large classes which, under that contemplated arrangement, would come under the instruction of the professor or the reader. 2481. Do you think that it would be desirable to enforce compulsory attendance upon university lec- tures or the lectures of a university reader? — No. The experience that we had of that, when that system pre- vailed some years ago, was most adverse to it. It reduced itself then on the part of the undergraduates, who were required to have attended two courses of proiessor’s lectures before going in for their examina- tion, to the plan of finding out which professor gave the least number of lectures, or who charged the least amount of fees. 2482. Supposing that system to have operated ill, would it be possible to require attendance upon par- ticular lectures with advantage ?— I hardly see how that could be enforced without very active co-opera- tion on the part of the college; teachers. 2183. At present, with regard to the combined lectures of which you were speaking, is attendance compulsory ? — -The men of each college are directed by ttieir tutors to go to certain lectures, and an accurate record of attendance is kept, so that if men fail to attend, notice would be given to the authorities of their own college, and they would be warned about it. 2484. Then in substance it is compulsory ? — Atten- dance at lectures, yes ; not at this or that particular one, but as is arranged at the beginning of each term. 2485. But supposing that an undergraduate were not to go to lectures in subjects which the college thinks he ought, would not the college interfere ? — Y es. 2486. So that in effect they direct his studies by telling him what lectures he ought to attend ? — Yes. 2487. And if he neglected to do so they would take notice of it ? — Yes. 2488. So that virtually that is a system of compul- sion ? — So far it is. 2489. If you substituted university readers for the combined lecturers, might not a similar system of com- pulsion be applied ? — The number would then have Q 6223. to be so vast in their attendance that I do not see how it could well be enforced. 2490. (Mr. Bernard.) If there were as many readers as there are intercollegiate lecturers, you think that difficulty would not intervene? — One very able or popular reader among those lecturers on the same subject might then have the vast majority of undergraduates from all the different colleges attend- ing his lectures, and would be almost unable to report regularly to the college tutors, nor would college tutors like thus to he turned into mere disciplinarians and deprived of teaching functions. 2491. (Chairnian.) Can you state to us distinctly what is the specific advantage which you think arises from the combined college lectures, and which would be lost if university readerships were substituted ? — I think we find that we have so much more intimate knowledge of the pupils attending; and if, moreover, in a given college a tutor takes up a particular subject, philosophy or ancient history, or the like, there is so much more intimate personal relationship with the men by i)ersonally superintending what they are doing than in a general lecture. The tutors catechising them upon it, and directing them from term to term what to attend, they are brought much more into living actual connexion with the teacher through the instru- mentality of the college system than they would l)e if the system were made more emphatically a public one. 2492. Supposing that any of those combined lecturers turned out to be inefficient, have you under the present system more control than you would have if they were all university readers; I mean could you in any way regulate the attendance of your students more efficiently than you could if they were all university readers ? — There is no power in one college of getting rid of a man who is thought to he an in- efficient teacher in another college, because of course the ai)pointment of those lecturers belongs to each college. 2493. No one college can remove from the staff of teachers of the combined lectures any one who is not a member of its own staff. No, it is entirely under the control of each college. Each college has the appointment of its lecturers. 2494. Can you withdraw your own students from any who are not considered hy you to be doing their work in a satisfactory manner ? — Yes. 2495. Would that be an advantage which could not be obtained under a system of university readers ? — It would be rather invidious, I think, to withdraw them, and no doubt the case as between those men who are reading for honours and passmen is very different as to the effectiveness of attendance. 2496. T"ou think that the elasticity and unofficial character of the present lectures, constitutes an ad- vantage over university readerships ?— Yes, I thiidi so. 2497. A^ou just now spoke about pass students ; is thei’e in your own college a considerable number of such students ? — Yes, a large number. 2498. Then you most likely have had a good deal of experience of their requirements and of the provision that is made for them ; is that provision wholly or principally inside the college ? — Yes, it is ; but then the reason, I think, why the tutors of Exeter Col- lege have less ditficulty on that account, is owing to the large numher of undergraduates, and to the large number of tutors that are required to meet the de- mand, so that most of the subjects the passmen require have been provided within our own walls. 2499. Is the system of intercollegiate lectures applied at all to pass students ? — Not in the least. 2500. Does it appear to you that it might be with advantage ? — I think that there are very strong reasons against it. A great nund;er, I am afraid, of pass students can only be described as large school- boys, and the mere love of learning, or even the desire of passing the examinations, would not sufficiently secure a regular attendance ; and unless you have some strict disciplinary system, such as could be applied in a college, it would be difficult to guarantee regular attendance. OXFORD. Itev. W. Inee. M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. T 146 UNIVEESITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. IV. Ince. M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. 2501. Would you have no chance ot‘ interesting them if the lectures were efficiently given in subjects which they would understand? — No, I do not think they would get more interested in them than they do at home in the lectures of their own college tutors. 2502. Although that is your general opinion, you think that it might be desirable to have one or two university readers in each particular class of study ? —Yes. 2503. Would you state the advantage which you think might be derived from them? — I think it would be practically recognising what now unofficial!}' takes place, say in a subject like modern history, that one or two of the senior tutors Avho are lecturing in a combined history alliance do take a considerable part in drawing up the combined scheme, and in negotiating with the Board of Studies, generally giving a direction to that department, and that pos- sibly some advantage might be gained if those one or two were formally elected by the university as readers, without contemplating such a very large extension as having ten or a dozen readers. 2504. Do you think it would be desirable to extend the collegiate system to natural science — No. It appears to me not desirable, because there you want not only teachers but the aids of appliances, museums, laboratories, and apparatus, which it is utterly im- possible for the several colleges to get. That instruc- tion must mainly, I think, be centred in the pro- fessoriate and the public university museum. 2505. Do you take the same view as to law ? — In the teaching of law, so far as I have had an oppor- tunity of observing in the case of our own men studying law, the co-operation between the jn’o- fessor and our law lecturer acts well, but it is com- paratively of brief duration, so that I have not had very full opportunity of observing. 2506. Take modern history ; is that better taught upon the collegiate system or the professorial ? — On the united collegiate system, I think. 2507. With respect to professorships generally, I see you state that there may be two views of the object with wliich they should be established. What are those two views ? — Either it aj)pears to me that a professorship might be supposed to represent a particular department of study, and the 2>i'ofessor should be the person to be consulted on any question that might arise in connexion therewith, either from within or without the university, he should be sujj- posed to be devoted to the further prosecution of that study, and he might make himself known and felt in writings and publications, and be generally the rej)resentative of the study in the university considered as a learned body ; or according to the other view which is contemplated in so many recent recommendations that have been made, the professors should be active teachers and administrators of edu- cation in the jdace, and by giving lectures to larger classes they should have the direction of the actual teaching of the university. 2508. What is your own opinion ujjou that point, that they should do both, or either, and which of those things ? — The great difficulty about that, I think, is that we have not got to begin reconstructing the uni- versity from the first ; but taking the actual state of Oxford as it has grown up, I confess it is extremely difficult to reconcile that second view of the nature of the functions of professors, as the only teachers of the undergraduates, with our existing scheme of the colleges. 2509. So that you think the object mainly in view with respect to professorshijrs ought to be to reju’e- sent the subject, and to study to promote its advance- ment P — It seems to me that that is the more practical object to be attained under the existing circum- stances. 2510. And that the reader’s work is done by the colleges already ? — A good deal of it. 2511. You think it desirable on the whole that that collegiate system of instruction should continue ?— Yes, I am of that opinion. 2512. Then with regard to the object of repre- senting different branches of learning and promoting their progress, do you think any large extension of the present professoriate desirable ? — I think certainly that some dei>artments of learning are not at present adequately represented. 2513. Have you any jmrticular case in your mind? — I am thinking more of some modern subjects, such, for instance, as English literature. 2514. Have you anything to suggest as to the par- ticular recommendations either of the Hebdomadal Council or of the Boards of Studies in any particular branches ? — No. I think the general imj^ression formed on my mind was that what was recommended was on far too large a scale. 2515. On a much larger scale than would have been desirable unless teaching had been in view — Yes. 2516. Do you think that anything more could usefully be done for the benefit of passmen than is now done in the university, by any modification of the present system intended expressly for their bene- fit ? — The difficulty with regard to passmen, I think, is the difference between large and small colleges. I can ([uite conceive the difficulties which a large college like Exeter College does not feel, would be felt by the smaller colleges in providing sufficient instruction for their passmen, owing to the multiplicity of subjects of examination according to our i)resent examination statutes. 2517. Would it be useful to require from them an elementary knowledge of practical subjects such as the elements of natural science or English history ? — I am afraid that even in the matriculation in the subjects now required not a very high standard is attained ; and if knowledge on other subjects were made also necessary the number admitted to the university would be considerably diminished. 2518. {Prof. Smith.) You might require a know- ledge of those subjects at a later period of the course and not necessarily at matriculation, might you not ? — Unless there were tmiversity matriculation, I do not think it would be itossible to make necessary such conditions of acquaintance with other .subjects, and even then it would very seriously diminisli the number of those who were able to begin their studies at the university. 2519. {Dr. Bellamy.) You do not think practi- cally that an average passman has a great deal of time on his hands to learn anything more during his stay here ? — No, A great number of them, owing to the variety of subjects for examination now, have no sooner jjassed through one than another is on their heels. A weak man who unfortunately fails once or twice is haunted all his time by the examinations, 2520. {Prof. Smith.) Have you formed an ojrinion as to whether that system has worked well or not, I mean the jjresent system of examinations for passmen, which has not been introduced long? — I think that it has led to much more industry than did our old system where there was only one subject to be examined in. In the long interval between responsions and the going in for a degree, a decent man who had made uji his mind not to go in for honours wasted a good deal of his time which is very much obviated now by the multiplication of examinations. 2521. In the considerable range of subjects in- cluded in the pass examinations, do you not think there are any in which the university might con- veniently ju'ovide instruction suitable for passmen ? — I think it is provided already in the colleges, for practically, although so many options are offered (10 different options, I think, in our present scheme), virtually the numbers which are taken are not above five or six. The great mass, for instance, of j^assmen take three subjects, they take classics, they take law, and they take political economy, in nine cases out of ten ; the number that choose to take in natural science subjects is extremely rare, and few take in mathematics, but the vast mass of them take in those three. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION .-—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 147 2.'522. Do not yon tlilnk that if there were uni- versity courses of instruotion in the natural sciences adapted to the requirements of the passmen, the number of passmen who offer those subjects might be considerably increased without over burdening the colleges ? — The number might be somewhat increased, but I think that it so largely dejiends upon whether those who come up here have any sort of initiation in the subject beforehand at school. Tf they have not been imbued with the elements of chemistry or physics as taught in their schools, they seldom, I think, would take to it here merely to read it. 2523. Then you think that to secure for a pass examination any considerable diffusion of knowledge of those subjects among the great mass of the undergraduates of the university, it would be neces- sary to impose some requirements upon the schools either at matriculation or in some equivalent manner ? — Yes, I think we should have to work backwards. I think there would be a definite scope for lectures adapted to passmen on the natural science subjects. The whole tendency, I think, of the teaching of natural science since it was instituted in the uni- versity has been to discourage passmen, till at one time they were almost wholly abolished. Tf such lectures as were given in old days by Professor Walker were instituted, I think it is quite possible that a moderate attendance might be provided for them, and those students might be interested to take in those subjects, but the great majority have never touched the subject before coming here, and as they have only six months to wait between one examina- tion and another they are hardly disposed to take it up. 2524. {Mr. Bernard.^ Have they not mostly had some instruction in natural science at school ? — Very little. I ask nearly every man who comes whether he has any knowledge of science, and scarcely any of them have. 2525. Do you ask them if they have ever been required to attend teaching upon the subject at school ? — No, I do not. I ask, as a matter of fact, whether they have attended such instruction, and in the majority of cases they say no. The witness withdrew. OXFORD. liev. IV. Ince, M.A. 29 Oct. 187“. Alfred Robinson, Esq., M.A. (Fellow, Lecturer, 2526. ( Chairman.) I see in the paper which you have been so good as to hand in to us that you first advert to some financial considerations as to the means which we may find available for university require- ments, will you have the goodness to say what has occurred to you upon that subject ? — I thought that I might be allowed in the first place to point out that the whole of the funds which can possibly be wanted for university requirements, even upon a most liberal estimate of what those requirements are, can be obtained out of the increase in the income of the colleges which will accrue within the next 20 or 30 years ; and therefore on the one hand we have no reason to be alarmed by schemes providing for university requirements on the ground that they destroy the college system ; on the other hand it is not necessary in order to provide for university requirements that charges should be imposed upon those colleges which have no increase of income to look for, or that the foundations of colleges in which there will be this increase shovdd be cut down. It may be quite right upon other grounds that altera- tions should be made in the foundations of the colleges, but it is important to recognise that the increase of income which will accrue through the expiration of beneficial leases and the coming into hand of copyhold property, can provide a sufficient fund for the wants of the university. 2527. That is to say, you think it would be a large fund? — Yes, even a larger fund than might appear from the passage referring to this subject in the report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission. The tables which are given in that passage, page 32 in the general report, do not show the whole of the increase, but only that which will accrue before certain dates, and for the year 1895 at the top of the last column should be substituted 1890. That I think is clear from the previous two lines, as compared with Table D., page 207. This is a point of some importance, because a good deal more income will accrue before the year 1895, and still more before the end of the century. 2528. {Mr. Bernard.) Are you dealing with the university now or with the colleges ? — With the colleges. 2529. {Prof. Smith.) That is to say, with that part of the income of the colleges which might be available for university purposes ? — Yes. 2530. ( Chairman.) Shall we obtain detailed par- ticulars on that subject, take your own college, for example, in answer to the circular which has been sent round ? — Certainly, I should think so. I should hope with respect to all the colleges that information of that kind will be laid before the Commissioners. With regard to New College, as bursar I should be im- and Senior Bur.sar of New College), examined. mediately responsible for preparing the information. I have been in some doubt as to the most convenient form in which it could be laid before the Com- missioners, and also as to the best time for laying it before them. Facts relating to college property alter rapidly, and it is desirable that any returns which are to be made should be sent in as late as possible before the time when they are likely to be wanted. 2531. I see that you not only speak as if there were some error with regard to the time, but you say that the ultimate increase is likely to be larger than would appear from that? — Yes. If you will be kind enough to turn to page 199, Table B., that really gives you, I think, a better picture of what the ultimate increase will be. Perhaps I may point out in what way an estimate of the increase ought to be formed from these tables. The fourth column, that is the estimated annual rackrent value of lands on bene- ficial lease, ought to be added to the fifth, the estimated annual rackrent value of copyholds for lives, and from that the sixth ought to be deducted. The sixth shows what the colleges were receiving on account of those two kinds of property at the time when those returns were compiled. If this calcula- tion is made, you find that the increase of annual income from lands on beneficial lease and from copy- hold property would be 106,575/., if the copyhold property were all in hand now, and if the beneficial leases had all run out. Then, further, you have to take the column which gives the estimated annual rackrent value of houses on beneficial lease and on long lease. The term for which these beneficial leases run is usually 40 years. By “ long ” leases are generally meant leases for 99 years. You will find, however, on referring to the note at the foot of the table, and to the returns for the different colleges, that generally the value of houses on long leases is not included in the estimates given in this column. As these leases will not fall in until a very remote date, the present estimate of accruing income should be formed independently ’of them. Leaving, there- fore, these long leases out of sight, and deducting the present annual income in respect of houses on bene- ficial lease from the estimated rackrent value of such houses, we get a further increase amounting to about 35,000/. 2532. Is there no decrease to be deducted ? — I am coming to the deefease in a moment. But in the first place there is this gross increase. 2533. {Dr. Bellamy.) With regard to that, of coiu’se it is very uncei-tain when that house property will run out. In many cases it has not begun to be run out? — Nearly all the existing beneficial leases were granted before the year 1871, and it appears T 2 A, Tiohmson, Esq., M.A, 148 UNIVERSITY or OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. A. Hobinson, Esq., M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. from the returns which were sent in by the different colleges that nearly all the leases will expire either by the end of the century or in the course of the year.s 1900 to 1910. So in all there will be a gross income of about 141,000/. per annum. On the other hand there are deductions to be made, to some of which the Commissioners refer, but for which no estimates are supplied. In the first place there must be a large deduction in respect to the loss of fines taken on the renewal of leases, or of loans in lieu of fines. Then, further, this annual rackrent value of the property as given in the table is, I understand, the estimated letting value of the land with nothing allowed for repairs or other exi)enses of that kind, and of course a very considerable deduction ought to be made under that head. If we allow 41,000/. I>er annum for these deductions there would still remain an increase of income to the amount of 100,000/. as the result of sweeping away the beneficial leases and the copyhold system. 2534. The valuations upon which the prospective increase is calculated, having been made at a time when there was a more flourishing state of the landed interest than is supposed to exist now, is the tendency of valuations to diminish at present? — That point I was coming to directly. 2535. {Air. Bernard.) With respect to rej^airs, perhaps ymu take into account that on running out long leases, or beneficial leases, the amount to be spent in repairs for many or for some years is much heavier than the normal amount? — Yes, that also should be taken into account ; but, in the first place, we ought to see Avhat will be the j)ernianent effects of the process of running out leases upon the income and expenditure of the colleges, ignoring temporary effects on either side. To form an estimate of that, there are two further considerations which ought to be taken into account. The first is, as the chairman has said, that you have to ask when were the valuations made upon which these estimates were formed. The valuations Mere not generally made on purpose for the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission ; the Commis- sion did not ask that sjrecial valuations should be made, and I believe that the colleges usually^ took the last valuation Mhich they had in their possession. In some cases the valuation M'as under the mark. For instance, there is one piece of property at Ncm' Col- lege, which appears in the blue book as worth 900/. a year; the property M'as valued two or three years ago, after the returns had been sent in, and was found to be worth over 2,000/. a year. 2536. {Earl oj' Bedesdale.) You mean actually at the jiresent time ? — I mean actually at the present time if it were in hand. That of course is a highly ex- ceptional case, but I think that in other instances colleges M'ill find that their house property is repre- sented by an old valuation M’hich does not give its actual worth. With respect to agricultural property, though farming has been much depressed during the last tM'o or three y'ears, the valuations given in the blue book show very' fairly the rents at which our New College farms are letting as they come into hand. That is one consideration M'hich M ould have to be taken into account. The other consideration is this, that at the time when these returns were made the colleges, or some of them, had a heavy charge upon them in resjject to this very process of running out beneficial leases, so that if you are try ing to estimate the permanent income and permanent expenditure of a college, as compared with the y'car 1871, M'hich is siiecially referred to by the Commissioners, I think you ought to assume that that process has been Morked out, as it M ere, and that the college is free from that charge. 2537. {J)r. Bellamy.) But that iscpiite independent of these figures ? — I am trying to point out what considerations should be borne in mind if these figures an* to be of any practical use. On the one hand M e ought to remember (it seems to me a very great defect in the figures that this is not brought into more ])rominence) that the fine loans cease, and on the other hand we must remember that the charges in respect to the process of running out the beneficial leases Mill also cease. That, as ap|)licd to New College, M-ill represent an increase in net income of 900/. a year as compared with the year 1871. In that year there Mas a charge upon the college of about that amount. 2538. In interest? — Yes. I do not knoM' M'hat the other colleges were paying, some of them had not begun to run out their leases so soon as M'e did, and therefore the charge would not be so great. In others larger loans had been rai.sed, and therefore the charge would have been greater. 2539. {Mr. Bernard.) That takes a long time ? — Yes. 2540. {Dr. Bellamy.) Did that 900/. a year include the repayment of capital, or merely the interest ? — Merely the interest. Therefore the drift of what I would say is, that supposing M e had come to the end of the process which is now going on of getting rid of beneficial leases and copyholds for lives (expensive as it no doubt is for the time), and looking simply to the j)resent value of the property M’ithout speculating upon a possible alteration in its value (though this is a contingency for Mhich full allowance should be made in legislation), we should have, as compared with the year 1871, a net increase of income to the amount of about 100,000/. per annum. 2541. {C/anrman.) But it M’ill take a long time in realisation ? — In the case of New College nearly the whole of the net increase accrues within 25 years from the present date, and much of it a good deal earlier. 2542. I see you have put down that it is not likely to be realised so rapidly, does that mean not so rapidly as those Commissioners expected?— Turning again to page 32 in their report, from the table there given it might be supposed that there M'ould by the year 1875 be a surplus income of about 11,000/. a year, and by 1880 a further surplus income of about 21,000/., and so on. I am sure that at the very least you might substitute for each of the dates a seven years later date, because, in the first place, there is the very expensive process of paying off loans which have been raised in lieu of fines ; and secondly, there are very heavy charges in resj)ect to repairs which are M'anted on the property when it comes into hand. At New College we have had reports upon some farms which have been held under beneficial leases, and the reports recommend an expenditure upon them of about three to four or five times the M'hole of the annual letting value of the farm. The Commissioners were, of course, well aware that these considerations must not be overlooked, and they have referred to them in their report ; but their tables are formed independently of them, and perhaps the figures as they stand, M'ith the definite dates, and so on, might be misleading from that cause. 2543. If you have come to the end of that topic, perhaps you will explain how prospective increase so distant is to be utilised M'ith regard to university re- quirements. You have said that ultimately, as I understand you, it would be possible from that fund to do everything which could he desired without interfering even with the present staff of the colleges, but it would take a long time to do so, would it not ? — Certainly. I did not mean that there should be no interference M’ith the present staff of the colleges. What I meant was that no case has been made out for a permanent reduction in the foundations of the col- leges in the interests of university requirements. Suspensions I M'as not considering at all, but I think that in much which has been said in Parlia- ment and in the university it has been assumed that at Oxford, as is no doubt true at Cambridge, you cannot get what is Manted for university require- ments without almost cutting the colleges to pieces ; and it seems to me that lire report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission shows that this assumption is at variance M’ith fircts. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 14!J 2544. VoK contemplate a suspension, it nuiy or may not be, on a large scale, but a suspension to provide funds necessary for immediate pui {)oses which would run out in the course of the century ?— I think that a large provision for permanent university purj)oses is necessary and ought to be made ; but a great deal of that provision will only be wanted gradually. Nobody, for instance, would piopose to create, say 30 or 40 university teaching offices in the course of the next year, or in the course of the next three years, though I think that 30 or 40 uni- versity teaching offices should be created in the course of the next 10 or 20 years, and tlie figures in this report show that if you can make the process of pro- viding for university requirements gradual, as I think it ought to be in any case, you can get the necessary funds out of this gradual increase in the incomes of the colleges. 2545. Were you a member of the Hebdomadal Council which drew up the report ? — I was not. 2546. Perhaps you are aware of the concluding passage in that report which says that “ They would “ observe that the changes or extensions which they “ have proposed, if approved, could only be made “ gradually, and that thus the danger of trying an “ experiment upon a large scale would be to a certain “ extent avoided ; ” that coincides with what you just now said ? — Yes, I should quite agree with that. 2547. I suppose that what they say about its being made gradually must have reference to the want of funds ? — Y^es. 2548. But they seem to think that independently of that there might be danger in trying the experi- ment upon too large a scale all at once, even if the funds were forthcoming ; do you agree in that opinion ? — I quite agree in that opinion. 2549. Have you any suggestion to make as to the way in which such an extension as may seem desirable should be distributed in point of time, or how it can be made gradual ; should you suggest that reliance ought to be placed upon the plan of enabling professorships ad hoc, so to say, to be from time to time established, not making them permanent ? — I think that in this respect the last Oxford Commis- sioners set a good precedent. They directed certain colleges to found professorships or to increase the emoluments of existing ])rofessorships at a date which in some cases was remote. In the saine way now a large provision might prudently be made for univer- sity requirements out of this accruing income of the colleges, it being arranged that the actual payments should only begin at such times as more exact estimates of the income of each college showed to be reasonable. 2550. With regard to the foundation of new pro- fessorships, to take a single example, it is recom- mended that there should be a professorship of classical archaeology : supposing that there were a certain number of professorships, of which that may be taken as a sample, which it may be desirable to create at once, do you see any objection to the suspension of fellowships which w'ould be necessary to create at once a sufficient fund for that purpose ? — No. 1 should see no objection to that; on the con- trary I should wish to see it done. I should wish it to be done to a moderate extent. 2551. If there were any needs less pressing, but ultimately desirable, should you think tbe best way would be to say that at the end of so many years a new professorship should be established, or that a fund should be formed by contribution, and that when that fund was siifficient then the professorship should be established ? — Yes, an arrangement of that kind would be best. 2.552. The contributions to be fixed with reference to the time at which the increased income may be expected to be available from the contributing col- leges ? — Y”es. 2553. (J7r. Bernard.^ It is rather difficult, is it not, to foresee at a distance of 15, 10, or even 5 years what professorships or public teacherships will be most desirable in the university. I mean what subjects it is most desirable to create public teaching offices in ? — We have a choice of difficulties. It is even more undesirable, it seems to me, suddenly to create a very large number of offices. 25,54. Certainly it is so ; but that was not what I meant; you see, do you not, a certain difficulty in foreseeing what after the lapse of 10 years may be the special or most pressing needs of the university in relation to public teaching? — Y'^es, there is certainly that difficulty. 2555. New subjects come into prominence out of the university and in the university, and old subjects change to some extent their form as knowledge in- creases, do they not? — Yes. 2556. In any provisions that could now be made, would it not be necessary therefore to leave a large discretion somewhere as to the j)articular form which endowments of public teaching for the future might take ? — Yes, I should (piite agree to that. 2557. Y’^ou are aware perhaps that by the foimer Commission some professorships were directed to be established, the form or subject matter of which it is now thought desirable to change ? — Y^es. 2558. (^Chairman.) That brings us to your opinion as to university requirements with respect to teaching, and the encouragement of study ; are you of opinion that the increase recommended by the Hebdomadal Council is a desirable one — Y"es, I am decidedly of that opinion. I have studied the statement of the Hebdomadal Council very carefully, and I think on the whole that it is cpiite in the right direction, and further that it goes about as far as is desirable. I should like to say, if 1 may be allowed, that I should be against proposals which would do away with the system of college teaching. It seems to me that the authors of proposals of that kind are simply wasting their time, and that they are dashing themselves against a rock. But on the other hand, I think that in the interest of the college teaching system itself a very considerable extension of university teaching is now wanted. 2559. Both professors and readers? — Perhaps I might simply describe them as university teachers without going into the question of whether they are readers or professors. There are two great weak- nesses, I think, in the college teaching system. One is the difficulty of attracting able men to the service of the college and keeping them in its service. The man who is on the tutorial staff of the college feels that he has no career, or that after three or four years his position is as good as it is ever likely to be, and he is discontented, and does not improve. That is the evil which the professor of political economy has dwelt upon in a pamphlet which I have no doubt many of the Commissioners have seen. 2560. {Mr. Bernard.) May I ask whether that difficulty has not been diminished to some degree by the introduction of intercollegiate lecturers who have larger classes, and we may hope perhaps from that source have larger incomes ? — In a very slight degree. There are two rival, or rather two different plans of working the intercollegiate system. In one a fee passes between the different colleges, and in the other no fee passes. In either case though I attach very great value to the intercollegiate system, and believe has been the saving of the j)lace in the last few years, I think it does very little to materially hotter the position of the members of the tutorial staff of a college. 2561. {Dr. Bellamy.) The fee at present is very small, is it not? — The fee at present is very small. 'I he other great defect in the college tutorial system is that it does so little for learning and science and study. The member of the tutorial staff’ of a college has a great amount of what is ordinarily considered routine work to do, and has little special motive for making any advance in his subject. That is the other great defect to my mind in the college tutorial system. 2562. {Mr. Bernard.) I'o some small extent is not T 3 OXFORD. A. liohinsnn Esq., M.A. 29 Oct. 187 7 150 UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION :—MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. A. Robimon, Esq., M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. that defect again diminished by this intercollegiate system which gives to successful teachers the pro- spect of large classes, and a proportionately keen stimulus to improve themselves ? — I think that the evil is in some respects diminished, but not removed. The intercollegiate system in some ways aggravates it, because the member of a college stall’ in ilie inter- collegiate system is under very strong inducement to confine his teaching to popular subjects ; if he turns aside to an unpopular one his class drops to nothing. These defects may partly be remedied by improve- ments in the colleges themselves. There ought to be positions in the tutorial staff of a college, which would be more permanent and attractive than college tutorial j)ositions have usually heen. But the other way of meeting those evils is to increase considerably the number of university teachers, because that would give a great stimulus to the college teacher to progress in his subject and to become efhicent. One of those university positions would be his reward, and when he had reached it he would have more leisure for study. 2563. (^Chairman.') I presume you contemplate that the university offices would be considerably higher in point of emolument than the college tutor- ships, or the combined tutorships ? — I think there ought to be some positions in the colleges quite as good as an university position. For instance, the position of a man who holds the ■ office of censor and tutor of Christ Church ought to be equal in point of emolument, dignity, and permanence to a uni- versity professorship ; but some of the colleges perhaps would be unable to create positions of that kind at all, and in the other colleges the number of such positions must and ought to be limited ; and therefore, I think we also want some more university positions to which the more eminent college tutors might attain. It is to be remembered that there are men of two types engaged in university work ; you have some whose abilities lie in the practical direc- tion, and you have others whose abilities lie in the direction of study, and I think that the men of the latter class ought to have university teacherships to look forward to as their reward for efficiency and learning. 2564-. {Prof. Smith.) Do you, or do you not, see any difficulty in having this system of lectures given by university teachers in exactly the same subjects in which you have lectures now given by the tutors within the colleges ? — I think that there is some diffi- culty about it. If the difficulty can be overcome, so much the better, though if it cannot be overcome, I think it would still be well to make such additions to the teaching of the university as the Council proposes. If I may be allowed, I should be glad to put one or two suggestions before the Commissioners as to the way in which the university teaching might be brought into relation with the college teaching. That, I think, is the hardest of all the questions which we have to consider. One suggestion, which perhaps is a very obvious one, is that every university teacher ought to be on the governing body of some college ; either of the college from which the emoluments of his post are derived, or of the college of which he is already a m ember. I think that this of itself would do something to soften the antagonism, which there no doubt is between college and university teaching. Then again there are several matters of detail, which are small in themselves, but are altogether of some importance in respect to which the ordinary practice of the univer- sity teachers might be changed with advantage. One change is, that their courses of lectures should extend over eight weeks, that is the whole of a term ; another is, that unless they lecture catechetically, they should hold occasional examinations of the members of their class. A third is, that they should keep a register of attendance at their lectures, as I believe is done by the divinity professors. Perhaps I may point out that if the university teachers were provided w'ith lecture rooms, which are urgently required, arrange- ments of that kind would be easier than they are now ; for instance, there might be a clerk, or clerks, who would relieve these university teachers of the mechanical part of such work. I shotdd w'ish to say that in making suggestions of that kind I do not wumt to put a hurden upon university teachers which they ought not to bear. There wall be some among them w'hom we ought to be ready to relieve from every irksome duty ; and also, I think, the university teacher ought for the time to be released altogether from teaching if he is engaged upon some considerable literary or scientific work. 2565. (il/r. Bernard.) That would be a special leave ? — It would be a special leave. I think also that it would be reasonable in regard to many of them, if not in regard to all, only to require teaching in two out of the three academical terms in the year. 2566. You do not coincide in the opinion that university professors as such should not be required to lecture at all ? — Certainly not as such. 2567. You think that their lectures have a real value as regards the education of the university ? — Certainly. I think that they should be encouraged, if not absolutely required, to take part in the univer- sity examinations. That I think -would do something to bring the university and college teaching into proper relation with one another. 2568. {Chairman.) Would you give them an in- fluence in the nomination of examiners, even when they did not themselves examine? — I do not think that there would be any objection to this, but the pre- sent system of appointing examiners is usually con- sidered, I believe, to work well. In the examinations more room should be found for special subjects, and to those subjects a great part of the university teaching should be directed. I am thinking princi- pally of the classical school, in which at present, the “ special subjects,” as they are called, are crushed out by the ordinary subjects. 2569. Will you give an example of what you mean by “ special ” subjects ? — For instance, if you have a university teacher to lecture on Northern Antiquities, as is proposed by the Council at page 9, I think it would be very desirable that the students of those Northern Antiquities should be allowed to produce the work they have done in the study of Northern Antiquities as part of their course in one of the schools. A list of “special ’’ subjects is given in the examination statutes at pages 56 and 57. The list is a most attractive one, but at present hardly any- body studies them because what are called the “ stated ” subjects are so exceedingly large that the whole of the candidate’s time is taken up, and more than taken up, with the “stated” subjects. I think that if our examination system were modified, so as to give more room for those special subjects, it would be of advantage. 2570. {Mr. Bernard.) That would probably give a very considerable impiflse to the study of special sub- jects, would it not ? — Quite so ; and I think that it would do much to bring the university teacher into the great stream of teaching in the place. At 2 rresent, in some of the schools he is apt to be like a fish on the bank while the whole river flows ^aast him, as I think appears from some of the letters which were addressed to the vice-chancellor by the pro- fessors. There is one other suggestion which I Avish to offer. If the university teacher is to be paid at all by fees, the fee I think should be provided out of tlie college tuition fund, if you retain the system, as I have no doubt it will be retained, of a large college tuition fee. That is already the arrangement in some col- leges, and I think that it should be universal. All these snggestions are independent of one another, though they all I think would tend to bring the uni- versity teacher into j^roper relation Avith the college teachei-. Supposing that these proposals Avere to be found, any or all of them, impracticable, I still think that there should be a considerable extension of university teaching, such as is proposed by the Council. 2571. {Chairman.) You have some suggestion to make in respect of the teaching of unattached stu- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 151 dents, have you not? — In respect to that, I merely wish to say that during the last few years it has been very much brought under my notice that the unattached students are very badly off at present for teacliing. While the warden of New College has been vice-chancellor, I have received the applications for adtnission to the college, and a good many of those unattached students have been to me from time to time applying for admission, — and they all tell me the same story, that they have come up to Oxford expecting to be taught, but find that they are not taught. 2572. There is nobody to teach them ? — There is nobody to teach them. They are often much in need of teaching, and they are often exceedingly desirous to learn. In many respects, of course, they are much below the average of the students in the colleges, but in the desire to learn I should say that they are much above the average of students in the colleges. Some plan should be devised for securing that they should receive more teaching than they get at present. 2573. Do you think that the want of that teaching is the main cause of the tendency which the better men amongst them show to migrate into the colleges ? • — Of course sometimes they want to go into the colleges in order that they may hold exhibitions or scholarships ; and there are other attractions about a college whicb many of them feel ; but that is certainly one main cause. 2574. You are aware that the university has quite recently appointed tutors to teach that class of students until they pass in responsions ? — I was not aware of that. 2575. Do you think that a provision, limited in point of time to the passing in responsions, and in point of number to two tutors, would be adequate ? — No ; it is not an adequate provision. 2576. Not adequate in either respect ? — No. 2577. (yMr. Bernard.') There are about 300 unat- tached students here, and you think 150 men to a tutor would be rather too many ? — Yes. Two or three things might be done towards providing them with teaching. I believe that some lime ago a pro- posal Avas made by one of the colleges (Lord Selborne’s own college) to do something in this direction. I believe that there were some objections to the details of the scheme, though I do not know what they were ; if any proposal of that kind should again be made by a college, it ought at any rate to be carefully con- sidered before it is rejected. Again, if holding some university office or doing university work should be made one of the conditions of prolonging the tenure of a college fellowship, service in the way of teaching the unattached students might be recognised as one form of work which would entitle a man to claim, or allow him to receive, an extension of tenure. 2578. {Chairman.) It has been suggested as one mode of benefiting the best students of that class that all the present halls should be united to colleges, so that the tuition and the general management should be provided by the college, and that they should live in the hall under strict sumptuary laws, getting their tuition upon more favourable terms than the generality of students ; do you think that that would be a plan which would partly meet the want ? — It is a plan which I have not considered.' Would every un- attached student be then necessarily a member of a hall ? 2579. It was not contemplated that that should be the case ; but it was thought that by so reorganising the halls to the extent of their capacity, the best class of unattached students would be attracted into them and better provided for than they could be otherwise ? — As I had not heard of the plan perhaps I had better not express any opinion upon it. 2580. Passing to the last point of your paper in regard to the requirements of the university, in respect to the work which it undertakes beyond the limits of Oxford, such as the examination of schools ; what have you to say to the Commissioners upon that point? — I was for some time secretary of the Delegacy for the Examination of Schools, which has been acting in concert with the university of Cambridge, and I am still a member of the delegacy, although I resigned the office of secretary about a year ago. What I say about this work would apply equally to the Local Examinations Delegacy, so far as they examine schools, as they are now doing. In the first place there is a great want of pro])er rooms in which the work can be done. The whole of the work has hitherto been done in the private rooms of the secretary, and I was almost driven out of my oavu rooms before I resigned the office, by the accumula- tion of all kinds of papers. I was sometimes obliged to destroy papers which ought to have been kept, but for whicli I simply had no room. I notice that at page 6 the Council say that “ there is also great “ and increasing inconvenience arising from the “ want of proper rooms and offices for conducting the “ business of the university, and especially in the “ departments of the Delegacies of Unattached Stu- “ dents. Lodging-houses, and Local Examinations.” I have no doubt that they would have added “ and in the department of the Schools Examination Delegacy” if their attention had been called to the point ; and it is a point of considerable practical importance in the working of the e.xamination. Then, secondly, I wish to say that I think the university might pro- perly subsidise these examinations to the extent of taking upon itself Avhat may be called tbeir central expenses ; I mean by those such things as the salary of the secretary, and office expenses. I think that if the university were to take upon itself those expenses it would be good for the scheme and good for the university itself. Under the statute under whicli these examinations are carried on, it is expressly provided that all expenses connected with them are to be defrayed by the schools ; I should be glad to see the statute altered in that respect. 2581. {Mr. Bernard.) The expenses are felt rather heavily, are they not, by the schools ? — They are ; the expenses kee]) out a good many schools which it is most desirable to bring in, the poorer schools and the smaller grammar schools. 2582. {Dr. Bellamy.) The richer bodies complain as much as the poorer ones, do they not ? — Some of them do. 2583. {Mr. Bernard.) The expense is sometimes given as a reason for not having so frequent examina- tions ; have you known that to be the case ? — Yes, certainly. Perhaps I should say that I am not asking for any large sum. This proposal would not be popular with some people in the university, and therefore I would guard it in that ivay. I think that 1,0007. a year would be an ample sum, and 5007. would go a long way. 2584. {Prof. Smith.) For the two delegacies ? — Yes. I think we should consider that, as we have undertaken this work, it is of great importance to us that it should be well done ; and I believe that nothing has done more to strengthen the hold of the universities on the country in the last 20 years than the success of this external work which they have undertaken. If we had not undertaken work of this kind it is possible that some very different questions about endowments might now have been under consideration. 2585. ( Chairman.) Is there not some dissatisfac- tion with the working of those examinations on the ground of the uncertainty of the value of the certificate when it is obtained? — There Avas some dissatisfaction, perhaps, on that ground at first, where the parent of a boy did not understand under what conditions the certificate was given. 2586. It does not dispense practically with the matriculation examination or the admission examina- tion in the better colleges, does it ? — In a good many colleges it dispenses altogether with the examination, and I think in every college it practically makes a great difference in the amount of examination which a boy has to pass ; if a boy gets a certificate of the right kind the matiiculation examination is dispensed T 4 OXFORD, A. llobiuson. Esq.. M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. 152 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. A. Robertson Esq., M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. with in every college, so far as I know. It depends upon wliat subjects he passes in. 2587. Assuming him to get tlie best possible certi- ficate in every subject, would his examination be dis- pensed with, for example, at Balliol ? — Certainly. He has to pass in the subjects which clear responsions, that is, in Greek, Latiit, and elementary tnathematics, and then he has to pass with distinction in some one of eight or nine subjects. If he does that he can matriculate without examination at Balliol. 2588. And at every college in the university ? — Yes, I believe so. The witness withdrew. Rev. B. Jowett, M.A. The Rev. Bkn.tamin Jowett, M.A. (Master of Balliol College), examined. 2589. {Chairman.') You have been so good as to favour us with a note of the heads under which you propose to state your views. Will you take them, if you please, in the order in which you have written them down ? — I will do so. One of the most pressing wants of the university is increased building accom- modation for several purposes ; I should place first the want of lecture rooms for professors. That want operates very disadvantageously to us at present. If the professors had lecture rooms in a common building it would bring them together ; it would bring the students together ; it would enable the professors to see their pupils without interruption. We see the great advantage of this at the Museum of Physical Science, and I think we feel the great want of it par- ticularly in the professorships connected with the Liter:c Humaniores School. It seems to me also improper that some of our distinguished law professors should have to beg a room in which to lecture. The want of lecture rooms for professors interferes se- riously with the efficiency of the professorial system. To provide them would entail a considerable expense, but the money would not be thrown away. 2590. No scheme, I sup{)ose, has been considered, either as to site, or as to any detail of buildings, or as to expense ? — No plan has been proposed to the university. Some of us have entered a little into the subject. There was a report made upon it to the Hebdomadal Council some time ago, which I daresay you have liefore you. You will find in their statement of university recjuirements the general heads of the report ; there is a longer report upon which that is based. 2591. But there is nothing there which enables us to estimate the probable cost, even supposing that t. 2654. In that case I presume that the need of the worl: would be the first thing, and the next question would be who was capable of iloing it — it would be a sort of bargain with him, in fact; his services would be retained to execute the particular work that was wanted ? — Yes. 2655. It would not be a sort of vague attempt to endow research as an abstract thing, but rather to promote particular useful researches? — \es. 2656. And that probably by paying something not in the shape of an annuity, but a sum of money ade- quate to the particular work to be done ? — That is exactly what I mean. 2657. Out of the common fund ? — Out of the common fund. 2658. {Earl of Redcsdalc.) Do you think that the university might reward research when effected ; that is to say, that when a man has made any great dis- covery, tlie university might reward it? — There are many persons I should like to see brought liere who might be induced to come by such means; but of course yon would not renaid an invention in that way. 2659. Not a profitable invention, certainly; but it seems to me that if a man has devoted his time with- out being asked by the university to do it, and it has resulted in something that is very creditable to him and very useful, it would be just as good to give him the reward after he has done it as to pay him for trying to do it ? — Yes, if the piece of work were really valuable. But such a reward would hardly act as a stimulus, because it would not be calculated upon beforehand. 2660. ( Chairman.) If he is not adequately remu- nerated for his labour and expenditure otherwise? — Yes. 2661. {3Ir. Bernard.) Research is a rather am- bio'uous word, which sometimes seems to be used to mean all maturer study tending to increase knowledge. You use it in a somewhat narrower sense, do you not ? — I should not include mere unproductive study under the title of research. I would define it as any kind of study that has definite results in adding to knowledge. 2662. {Chairman.) Then Ave come to the subject of professors and re.aders, Avill you state what your vieAvs are upon that subject ? — The subject of pro- fessors is one that has been very much di.scussed here, and there are difficulties about it which I think are peculiar to the universities of Oxford and Cam- bridge on .account of the double system. We have two sets of teachers, the college tutors and the pro- fessors, and it is difficult for them to work together. This difficulty is increased in some measure by Avhat is called the intercollegiate system, because eveiy distinguished tutor by natural process becomes a professor; he draAVS toAvards him a certain number of persons from the other colleges. In this rivalry or contest the professors are at a great disadvantage ; the college lecture is more comenient to the undergra- duate, and he is probably sent there by the influence of his tutor or by someone in his college. There are other difficulties ; the examination system, though it has been of the greatest value, certainly makes the ])ositlon of the professor more difficult because like the college tutor he has to prepare men for the schools, and though this need not be any process of Avhat is called cramming, — it may be intelligent teaching, — yet he will find that if he goes in his subjeet beyond Avhat is required in the schools, his audience Avill at once drop off. I am not complaining of the examination system, but I only Avant to observe that it renders it difficult for the professors to find audiences upon subjects at all out of the ordinary course. Another difficulty in the Oxford and Cambridge Professorial system is that the professor has not the same stimulus to work which a Scotch or German professor has, because his income is not really dependent upon his pupils, and it ciinnot in any sensible degree afford a motive to him. The fees are mostly inconsiderable, and as the requirements of them Avould diminish the attendance on his lectures he generally dispenses Avith them. 2663. {Prof. Smith.) Would you explain Avhy it is that a professor’s income cannot be made to depend upon his lees ; is it from the college system of instruc- tion going on side by side Avith the professorial system ? — The undergraduate has already paid a fee to his college tutor, and he is able to attend the lectui-es of any tutor in another college AA'hich is associated Avith his OAvn for the purpose of lectures. He has no motive for attending professorial lectures, especially if he has to pay an additional fee for them. 2664. {Mr. Bernard.) As you see these difficulties, may we hope that you are about to suggest something that Avould in some Avay diminish them ? — As far as I can judge from experience, if the tAvo systems are to exist side by side in rivalry Avith each other, the college system Avill prevail over the professorial, but I shoidd endeavour as far as I could to harmonise them. I should place the professor or reader in a college, and get him to work as much as he could Avith the associated college tutors. I think he should collect his pupils around him from his OAvn college and from neighbouring colleges, and so the two systems Avould Avork together. There is, howev^er, something more to be said about the position of the profe.ssor. If he Avants to succeed in obt.aining and keeping a large audience he must do much the same thing over again Avhich the college tutor does, he must make himself thoroughly useful to the men. That is a good object, but Ave want something of a different kind from the professor. Besides teaching Ave must look for higher duties for him, such as study and writing, and in Oxford we must expect the chief use of the professors to he found in that. It is of great importance to collect men of ability Avho have leisure for Avriting, and here our profes.sorships afford us the means of doing so. Lastly, there is one thing which I Avould Avish strongly to urge upon the Commission, in con- nexion Avith the professoriate, and that is the necessity of providing a career for young men here. Formerly, a college tutor was a clergyman ; if he Avas able and ambitious he looked to prefciment in the Church, and if he Avas not, he Avent (>ff upon a college living. That has so far pa.ssed away, that it is absolutely necessary to find some kind of career to Avhich a college tutor can look forward. Young men of ability cannot be expected to be satisfied with a prospect inferior to that which they Avould have had in the Civil Service. Even -if they are inclined to teach the best of them will leave the University if nothing is done for them. Thus the Avhole teaching of the place Avill degenerate. In order to retain them, I would urge the appointment of several readers and professors ; and instead of opposing them to the college teaching, I Avonld, as much as possible, identify them Avith it; in my view it is an essential point that the readerships should he tenable with college tutorships, so that there should be a rcAA’ard for a distinguished college tutor. 2665. {Chairman.) In snbstance an increase of his stipend ? — Yes, an increase of his stipend ; at the same time his lectures Avould be throAvn open to the university. 2666. I think you said, Avhen a question was put which a little interrupted you, that you Avould be fer abolishing fees paid to professors and university readers ? — Yes ; they w'ill be generally so small as not to be Avorth having, and either they must be taken by all or given up by all the professors in the same subject. 2667. {Dr. Bellamy.) It is only a practical difficulty about creating this career, Avhich no doubt would be very desii-able, but Avhen you once got your professor- ships and readerships full, there Avould not be a quick succession in them, Avould there? — There would not be a quick succession, but some men must go off on pensions as in other professions ; other men would probably become masters of schools, and so on. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 157 2668. {Prof. Smith.) A man must be content, must he not, to serve in a college for some time before he could aspire to an university readership ? — Certainly ; and we cannot hope to provide splendid careers for inferior men. 2669. ( Chairman.) Is there no danger of your doing it although you do not aim at it ; that is to say, is there not a little danger that if tliese places are all permanent and liave to be filled up they may be filled by inferior men ? — I should not propose that the readerships should be permanent, but only that they should be held temporarily. For the success of this or any similar plan you must rely on the persons who are appointed, and for that on the boiirds who make the appointments. 2670. {Mr. Bernard.) I suppose the ultimate hope of a reader would be to become a professor ? — Yes. 2671. {Chairman.) In your opinion should the professors and readers be resident ? — I think that with rare exception they ought to be resident. In a very few cases it might be desirable to connect an eminent man with the university who could not reside ; in such cases a professor might be required to lecture without I’esiding, 2672. It has been suggested to us that there are subjects outside the university curriculum in which a few lectures given by a non-resident lecturer might create as much interest and do as much good as if he were resident, such as fine arts and poetry ; do you think that those are examples in point ? — I think that a few such lectures might be desirable ; they might also be given by persons who are not professoi’s ; whether they would be successful or not must entirely depend upon the lecturer. 2673. {Mr. Bernard.) You say you think that the most important function of a professor should be to study and to write ; but should you think that a pro- fessoriate which confined itself to studying and writing would really discharge its functions satisfactorily ? — Decidedly not, I think that a professor ought to teach as well, but I wanted to point out that he teaches under very considerable, though necessary, disadvantages in Oxford, .and I wish to get over these disadvantages as much as possible by connecting him with the colleges, instead of dissociating him from ihem. 2674. {Chairman.) You are probably aware that some persons have suggested that the whole teach- ing of honour students at least should be taken from the colleges and conducted by the university. Do you think that that would be desirable if it were practicable ? — I think it impracticable ; for why should the college tutoir give up their best pupils at the time when the instruction of them would be most interesting and creditable to them ; and I think it would be undesirable because I have no doubt that a small number of men, speaking generally, can be taught better than a large number of men. It is true that this compai'atively private tuition may be advantageously supplemented by the public lectures of an able man. Here, especially in subjects not taught in colleges, comes in the field of the professor. 2675. {3Ir. Bernard.) The intercollegiate system on the whole you think works well, and supplies a great want in the university ? — Yes, on the whole; it has some disadvantages, but the advantages are much greater than the disadvantages, audit was a necessity. 2676. If you add to it such readers as you suggested just now, do you think that the provision made for an undergraduate’s education would be as good as we can expect to have ? — As good as you can make it by any system. 2677. {Chairman.) Perhaps before we leave the subject of professors, it might be desirable that we should obtain your opinion upon some subjects of detail which I find suggested in the two reports which are signed by your name. I see that in the first of those reports it was suggested that in philosophy there should be two additional readers ; that in ancient history there should be one ; that in the classical languages there should be two new professors, one of Greek and one of Latin, and four readers, besides a professor of classic archaeology. Are you of opinion that these recommendations are in excess of the wants of the university, or that they are really necessary ? — I think that they are desirable. It is difficult to say what is absolutely necessary, but I do not think that the proposal is at all excessive if you compare the number of students in the classical schools with the number of students, say, for instance, in mathematics. 2678. {Dr. Bellamy.) That is not a very fair com- parison, is it, because the number of professorships really keeps pace with the number of persons reading, particularly if their function is not to be mainly teaching ? — The Savilian Professor of Geometry agrees with me in thinking it quite fair ; I know that in the reorganisation of the professoriate, the wants of the subject must be considei’cd as Avell as the number of the students, but I also agree with Mr. Bernard that the professor must be a teacher as well. 2679. {Chairman.) At page 86, as a reason for having a second professor of ancient history, and a second professor of Greek, and a second professor of Latin, it is suggested that there are some portions of these genei’al subjects which it is desirable to have represented ; have you considered whether that object, assuming it to be desirable, would be certainly attained by the duplication of the professorships, by having two professors of one denomination ? Take your own professorship, the professorship of Greek ; is it quite certain that separate attainments would be likely to be represented in the appointment of the two different professors ? — Supposing that you had two professor- ships, I think that the board who appoint ought to take into account such considerations. I think it is probable that they would. 2680. Looking at the probable working of such a system, is it not more probable that if you had a very eminent Greek scholar the special considerations would be apt to be lost sight of ; they would think that he was evidently the best man for the place, though some competitor might have more knowledge of paheography, or of Hellenistic Greek, or of the remains of ancient languages ? — Quite so, and in such a case you ought to let general ability supersede particular acquirements. 2681. Supposing that you got two men of sub- stantially similar qualifications, is it really important to have two professors of one subject, though it be such a large subject as Greek or Latin, rather than readers ? — Yes, I think it is. Supposing that for the professorship of Latin you have two eminent scholars instead of one, you have more opportunities of giving positions to persons who deserve them ; more study, more knowledge in the university. 2682. {Mr. Bernard.) Would they not commonly do as the two professors of modern history do, namely, select for themselves some division of their work ? — They might do so for themselves, but I' would rather not tie them down by minute requirement. The object of that second recommendation of the Board of Studies has been a little misunderstood. In proposing two professorships of Greek and Latin we were under the impression, which Lord Selborne has expressed, but we were asked further to show what kind of subjects these professors could be engaged upon. I do not think that we meant to make these distinctions absolutely. 2683. {Chairman.) Though you evidently think that it is desirable to have these additional professors, I presume you do not think that it is one of the most pressing requirements to have a second professor, for instance, of Greek or of Latin ? — I think that it is one of the most pressing requirements of the university, for the reasons which I have given, to provide a career for young men, and this proposal is a part of that system. I do not say that for the number of pupils or for the necessity of teaching Latin or Greek it is one of the most pressing requirements ; it is the other point of view that I should urge upon the Com- mission. 2684. {Prof. Smith.) You are impressed with the OXFORD. Rev. B. Jewett, M.A 29 Oct. 1877 U 3 OXFORD. Rev. B. Jowett, M.A, 29 Oct. 1877. 158 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. fact that we have many more teachers of Greek and Latin in the university than we have of any other subject ? — Yes. 2685. And that in arrangiug any system of univer- sity teacherships, we must be partly guided by a reference to the number of persons engaged in the study ? — Yes. 2686. {Dr. Bellamy.') To represent it upon what you may call the hierarchy of the university 'i — Yes. 2687. (Prof. Smith.) Do you not also think that an increase in the classical professoriate might have a tendency to maintain a higher level of classical knowledge, and a wider interest in it than can be hoped for if the numbers of the professoriate should remain exactly as they are ? — Yes, I should hope so ; many works would be written and studies undertaken for which otherwise there would have been no motive or opportunity. 2688. {Chairman.) The next point is as to the mode of electing professors and readers ; what are your views upon that subject ? — 1 think we are agreed about the worst mode of electing them, and that is by Convocation ; the next worst mode is by Congregation, and I am not certain which is the worst of the two, because Convocation is at a distance from you, but in Congregation you are eanvassed for your vote (as indeed I have been) by anybody you meet in the street. But, setting aside those two modes of electing professors, I do not think that the question is at all insoluble. 2689. Are you satisfied with the solution which the Council have recommended ? — Not altogether. 2690-1. One thing that has been noticed is that they recommend two slightly different constitutions of two boards, one for the permanent and one for the extra- ordinary professorships ; do you think that there should be such a distinction ? — Supposing that many new professorships are founded I should not like to leave them all in the hands of a single board. The power given to the board would be invidious and the appointments would not obtain the confidence of the public in the same way as if the electors were persons specially acquainted with the subject. It is true that a sensible man if he makes proper inquiries ean find out who is the best candidate, even though he knows nothing of a subject ; but, upon the whole, I think it would give more confidence if a physical science professor, for example, were partly elected by the persons who are professors in the same subject or in cognate subjects, both here and elsewhere, and partly by some official and representative persons — an official person such as the Vice-Chancellor, and a representative person such as a representative of the college, supposing t,he professorship to be founded out of the college funds, or of a learned body, such as the Royal Society. 2692. {Ihlr. Bernard.) Do you think a representa- tive of the college at all material, or that it would be merely useful as a satisfaction to the college ? — I think that it would be a reasonable satisfaction to the college, but I do not think it necessary. The repre- sentative would not be a bad element on the board ; for the college which gives the money and probably elects the professor one of its fellows, has a strong interest in having a good man appointed. 2693. Would you hsive it a member of the college, or a person selected by the college ? — A person selected by the college. The disadvantage of having several boards instead of one for the election of pro- fessors is that you cannot so easily interchange them as if they were all a])pointed by a single board ; that is a difficulty which has to be met, for it is certainly desirable that we should have the power of not filling up a professorship, or superseding it by another, in case it were possible to bring here some eminent person for whom there is no vacant place. I should propose that the boards should be variously consti- tuted as I have already suggested, but that the Hebdomadal Council, or possibly the board, which is to have the control of the university fund, should first of all decide whether the professorship is to be filled up. In general we shall bring persons here not so much by exchanging the subject of one professorship for another, but out of additional funds which may be provided for this purpose. 2694. {Chairman.) Would there be no risk of that power being used to gratify particular persons ? — I cannot say that there is no risk of that. 2695. To be able to create a place for anyone whom you look upon as a deserving person Avould be a dangerous power in other departments of life ? — There are risks in all things ; but the electors would be appointed because they had the confidence of the university, and they would be under the check of public opinion. It is a very great advantage to bring distinguished persons here. The university has suf- fered from there being so much learning and literary distinction which is external to it. I should not expect or desire that the power would be very fre- quently used. 2696. {31r. Bernard.) It would be counteracted here, would it not, by the claims of certain branches of study aud the force with which they would insist upon those claims? — Yes. I think that it would be impossible to bring a person here who was not very distinguished. 2697. And unless it was a study which for the time being was pressing in its demands ? — Just so. 2698. {Chairman.) The last point that you have noted is as to a common fund ; that is connected with the subject of which you have been speaking ? — Yes. I should be sorry to see a common fund created at the expense of the non-resident fellowships. I think it most important to preserve them. They form a link between the university and the professions Avhich it is desirable for us to maintain, and to strengthen as much as we can. At the same time I think that their tenure should be diminished, and perhaps their value reduced to 200/. a year. I should hope that whatever was done for a common fund might not infringe iqjon the non-resident fellowships. Returning to the com- mon fund it seems to me that it should be assessed after the educational wants of the colleges have been satisfied. Some of the colleges, with very small endowments, have a large number of undergraduates, and some with large endowments have a veiy small number of undergraduates, or none at all, aud it would be hardly right to assess the colleges in both those cases upon the same principles. Before the assess- ment was made account should be taken of what is necessary for education for scholarships and exhibi- tions, and so on, and the assessment should be made on the surplus. Also, supposing that a. college has some special educational i-equirements common to itself and the university, it might be possible to consider them in the demand made upon it. 2699. Does not the Act already provide in sub- stance for what you have suggested, namely, that the requirements of education within the college are to be first considered ? — I think it does. I was only venturing to give a little emphasis to it, and to point out that not the mere educational requirements of a college, but what may be said to be a part of the educational requirements if it is to maintain ilself against the competition of wealthier societies, namely, scholarships and exhibitions, should be included in the un taxed portion of its income. 2700. {Mr. Bernard.) Will you explain what you mean by saying that a college has some special edu- cational requirements ? — A college may wish to have a lectureship in law or in physical science, or in some other subject which is necessary for its own students, and it is willing to throw this open to the university, and I think such a proposal may fairly be considered by the Commission. 2701. {Prof. Smith.) The establishment by a col- lege of a lectureship open to the university you think might fairly be considered as a part of its contribu- tion ? — Yes. 2702. {Chairman.) Did you wish to bo under- UNIVEKSITT OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 159 stood as expressing an opinion that there slionld be no I’eduction in the number of non-resident fellows ? — If the non-resident fellowships were held for seven years only, there would be an increase of them, sup- I)osing that the sums appropriated to them were not diminished. I should wish to see at least the same amount of money assigned to them which is given at present. Many more poor men come to the university now than formerly ; it is a bad thing to bring them up hero unless you provide them with the means of finding their way into a profession, for you compel them all to become schoolmasters whether they are fitted for the occupation or not. The numbers and influence of the university greatly depend on the non- resident fellows. I think them not a bad but a good element in the government of a college, because they prevent the residents from degenerating into a clicpie. They bring the experience of the outside world and the knowledge of a younger generation to boar upon the college. About many of the proposals which are made by university reformers I feel doubt- ful ; they are in the future and they depend upon the selection of the right pei’sons, upon the ability that we can draw towards the univei’sity, and upon other doubtful particulars. But I feel no doubt of the great advantage of giving distinguished young men the means of getting into a profession ; it is one of the surest services that the Commission can do to the country, and I would increase rather than diminish that expenditure. 2703. You said, and very justly, that they would 1)0 largely increased, assuming the fixed number to remain as at present, by making them terminable ; that is to .say, the vacancies would occur much more fre- (piently than they do at present ? — Yes. 2704. {Prof. Smith.) Could you give the Commis- sion any impression of the average length of time for which the non-terminable fellowships vacated only by marriage or by death have been held ? — It has varied from various causes; 20 years ago the average was different from what it was 10 years ago, and it is different again now. I think that a fellowship would be held on the average from 12 to 14 years, speaking very roughly, but owing to the ever increasing number of married fellows the average is always changing. 2705. In that estimate do you take into account those fellowships which in some of the colleges have been connected with tutorships and Avhich are held as tutoi'ial fellowships by married men ? — I hardly like to call it an estimate at all, it is little more than a guess : no estimate can be formed until the same regulations for the tenure of felloAVships have prevailed for several years. 2706. You have indicated your opinion that it might be desirable to have a common limit to the value of scholarships, have you the same opinion Avith regard to those fellowships Avhich for the Avant of a better name I Avould describe as prize or professional fellowships ? — Yes, I think they should be of the same A-alue, otherwise the colleges Avould bid against one another. 2707. {Chairman.) Of the same value and held for the same period of time ? — Of the same value and held for the same period of time. 2/08. {Prof. Smith.) You think th.at one uniform rule should be adopted ? — Certainly, and if possible that the same rule should be adopted at both univer- sities. 2709. {Mr. Bernard.) As an incidental question, may I ask Avhether you think that it is desirable to have a limit of age tixed for scholarships ? — That is rather a difficult question to answer ; I think so, and I should fix the limit at 19. It is an evil which has sprung up of late years, that young men come up to the university much later than they used to do. During the last 30 years the average age for entering the )iniversity has risen more than a year, and the time of residence has been prolonged nearly a year. The consequence is that the expense is increased, and it is complained Avith justice that young men come too late to the business of life. The only way in Avhich we can meet this tendency is by limiting the age for scholarships. If the age of scholars were limited to 19 that would be found to limit the age for other boys also ; boys in the same classes would commonly leave school at the same time. There doe.s, however, arise a difficulty, because if all scholarships and all exhibitions are limited, older men, who often very much want them, would be debarred from stand- ing for them. I should be inclined to say that while the scholarships should be confined to men of 19 years of age, a good many exhibitions should be left free from any kind of restriction. 2710. Would 'you haA^e exhibitions likewise given as prizes for proficiency ? — Yes, in the same way, after a competitive examination. 2711. {Sir M. W. Ridley.) With regard to scholar- ships, there is that limit now to a very great extent, is there not ? — No ; not the limit of 19 years. Most of them are confined to men of 20 years of age. 2712. {Mr. Bernard.) If it is applied at all, it must be applied generally ? — Yes. In conclusion I would remark, that the different subjects of which Ave have spoken need not compete with one another ; there is money enough to provide for them all in the course of the next eight or ten years. I believe that without making any great organic changes, the Commission may by a better distribution of our revenues and by the prevention of abuse and waste A'ery much increase or even double the efficiency of the university. 2713. {Chairman.) It has been suggested to us by a witness who seemed to have paid much attention to the economic part of the subject, that we must not expect the funds to come in quite in the time you mention, but he thought that we had better allow until the end of the century before we got the increase in the revenues of the colleges which might be inferred from the report of the Duke of Cleve- land’s Commission ; haA’e you looked into that matter ? — Yes, I have, and I think that much may be done with the present revenues if they are economically used. There Avill be life interests dying out. At many of the colleges the funds are wholly dispropor- tionate to the objects of them. There is another large item, the livings, which I think most of the colleges Avill find it desirable to sell. They are not good patrons, because they are not locally interested in the jdaces to which they appoint, and because the majority of the fellows ai’e not acquainted of their own know- ledge with the persons Avhom they appoint. There is still another item of revenue which Avithin fiAm years might be at the disposal of the colleges. The value of scholarships which is at present often extravagant might be reduced to 80/. with great advantage, besides the saving of money. When the college scholarship is added, as is frequently the case, to a school exhibi- tion a young man is too well off. With respect to the prospective increase of property, 1 hope that the Com- mission will lay doAvn rules for its disposal and not leave future arrangements to chance. 2714. {3Ir. Bernard.) We may expect, I am afraid, very heavy charges for the buildings Avhich are in progress and which are recommended ? — Yes. 2715. And if any considerable portion of the uni- A^ersity capital is to be spent upon those buildings the university income Avill be proportionately diminished ; if we spend, for instance, 50,000/. of stock, we shall lose the interest upou that 50,000/. ? — Yes. OXFORD. Bev. B. Jowett, M.A 29 Oct. 1877 The witness withdreAV. 160 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Bev. G. W. Kitchin, M.A., and Rev. G. S. Ward, M. A. 29 Oct. 1877. The Eeverend G. W. Kitchin, M.A. (Ch. Ch.), and the Reverend G. S. Ward, M.A. (Fellow of Hertford College), examined. 2716. {^Chairman, to Mr. Kitchin.^ We understand that you and Mr. Ward are the censors of unattached students ? — That is so. 2717. The Commissioners will be very glad to learn from you what they can about the sufficiency of the present arrangements for the benefit of the unattached students. First of all with respect to the provision for their tuition and instruction. We under- stand that until quite recently the university liad made no provision for their instruction ? — None whatever. 2718. And that very recently it has been .agreed to appoint two tutors to teach them until their respon- sions; not to be paid out of univer.^ity funds, but to be paid by fees; is that so? — That is not the case relatively to the university. It has not been done as an act of the general body of the university ; it has been done by the Delegacy for the Unattached Students out of their own fund, aud thus f.ar it has only been done as a tentative measure for a twelvemonth. The actual step taken is the appointment, at lOOf. each for one year, of two gentlemen who are members of our own body, Mr. Gordon, M.A., w'ho obtained a second class in the school of Literie Humaniores, three or four ye.ars ago, and wffio has been a private tutor ever since, and Mr. Abbott, who proposes to take his degree in the present term, and has passed his examination with honours. These gentlemen undertake the super- vision of students who have not yet passed respon- sions. 2719. What is the number of the unattached students — The number at the present moment, .speaking of undergraduates only, is about 275, but the number increases almost every day. 2720. Calling it 280, what proportion of those would have passed their responsions, and what pro- portion would not? — Of course a very considerable number of these have matriculated this term. We h.ave entered 54 already this term, who of course cannot have passed their responsions. In addition to these I should think there are about 70 more in resi- dence beside about 25 or 30 not in residence, elderly gentlemen, clergymen, heads of families, who come up from time to time, but very rarely except in the two summer terms, which is an expedient to keep two terms for the expense of one. 2721. Excluding that class, there would be about 120 ?— res. 2722. So that those two tutors are for the 120, the rest being entirely unprovided for ? — The rest are totally unprovided for. 2723. Is that a satisfactory arrangement to you as censor ? — No, certainly not ; still we are very thankful to get so much. This 200/. quite exhausts the balance of last year, and probably will run the balance of this year equally close ; but it is obvious that men at a later stage are equally in need of assistance as men in th(i earlier stage, to say nothing of those wishing to obtain honours. 2724. If you had sufficient funds would you wish to make as ample provision for their tuition as is made in the colleges ? — I think not ; I think I should not wish to see any large provision for class work, but I would trust to exhibitions from without to provide tuition, and to university lectures. I think one of our duties would be (for we do from time to time have an honours man) to point out to him that the university, as such, through its professorial system, provides a large part of the instruction required for honours. 2725. Is it the fact that the professorial teaching as now given in the university is in kind the same as that whieh is given by the tutors of the colleges ? — I think, as far as the honours men are concerned, the professorial lectures, to which the unattached students are able to go, meet, to a large extent, their require- ments ; but when they want to get more help, they are cordially welcomed, and in a manner which we ought to be grateful for, by one or two colleges which allow them to attend their honours lectures, so that we have in fact the advantage of both systems at once. 2726. Are they admitted to the lectures of the tutors who are parties to the combinations of colleges of which we have heard ? — They are admitted fi-ee of all charge to the lectures of all the tutors of Balliol, for which piece of liberality we have very much to be thankful ; and they are admitted also, though not nominally without charge, practically in the same way, by the theological combination. The other colleges generally make a small charge. 2727. You mentioned that these tutors receive 100/. a year; that is, I suppose, a very small stipend in comparison with the emoluments of tutors in colleges ? — It is very small indeed, but we do not ask for all their time ; we allow them to take private pupils if they lilce to do so in their spare hours, and we also enable them to establish lectures on the spot, for which lectures each student pays them a guinea ; so that, as a matter of fact, it is giving them a kind of retaining fee of 100/., together with whatever they may earn in their own homes, and by these lectures, which perhaps will bring in another 100/. 2728. AVas an offer made by one of the colleges to assist in providing instruction for the unattached students ? — Magdalen College made an offer of that description four or five years ago, and it was not accepted by the delegacy, rightly or wi’ongly, because it was coupled with certain conditions which seemed to us to take the management of the education out of the hands of the delegacy. Magdalen propo.«ed to endow officers, and in return not only to have the nomi- nation of these officers, but to a very large extent the supervision of the work done. {Mr. Hard.) It w'as limited also to poor students. 2729. {To Mr. Kitchin.) Has the number of that class of students a tendency to increase ? — The increase goes on with less rapidity than at first, because men lake their degrees and go away ; but there is a distinct addition year by year. Last year the addition was only 16 undergraduates, but the year before the addi- tion was very considerable, and the present year promises to give us a slight increase again. 2730. Have you any means of judging what is the average cost to a well-conducted student who has reason to be economical ? — 'I'he only ground I have to go upon is a return which we got two or three years ago from 30 men ; it was a voluntary return as to their expenses for a week, the result of which is embodied in our last report. The practieal result was that we found that these men could live, as far as the necessary expenses of the university go, for a sum not much exceeding 50/., and out of those 30 men at least half of the number did so, .and some few for consi- derably less ; but those who did it for less did it with heroic self-sacrifice in some cases, and even to the serious detriment of their health. 2731. {Mr. Bernard.) Does that 50/. include the expenses of tuition ? — Yes ; 1 put down about 10 guineas for that. 2732. {Chairman.) That, I presume, is much less than the cost would be at any college or hall in the university? — Yes. I suppo.se it is 50 per cent, less than the lowest cost in a college. {Mr. Ward.) I think that it is so. If a student were to live witliiu the walls of a hall, I am not able to state what the arrangements would in all cases be ; of course any individual head may out of libei’ality accept as small fees as he pleases, .and allow students to live as economically as possible ; but I am not aware that it is done. 2733. We have been informed that a good many of those unattached students afterwards go into colleges ; is that the case? — That is so. By migration alto- gether up to the 1st of July in this j'ear 310 have left us for colleges. 2734. What per-centage would that be upon the whole number of entries ? — Nearly half. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 161 2735. or those, some I sui>pose, have gained sc'liolarships or cxliibitioiis ? — Yhis, a eertaiii number. We get al)oiit lour or live in the year ; we have liad two already this term. 2736. It has been suggested to us as one of tlie causes of that migration tliat they get no teacliing as unattached students, and that they go to the colleges to obtain it; is tliat so? — .That is perfectly true as far as honours men arc concerned ; as far as the passmen who go to colleges are concerned, 1 think it is a matter of very small importance indeed ; Init with regard to honours men I ha\ e oft^m recommended them to go into college, and tiicy have generally done sO with very consiilerable success. Thus, in one year I recom- mended three men to go to Christ Church, and they got five first classes afterwards. 2737. Do the censors direct them individually as to their studies in the absence of any other organisation, or of any tutors ? — Yes ; Though, as you will understand, that assistance must be slight ; we are always prepared to answer .any question about the men’s work, and to give them any advice about their books, or their reading, or as to the school that they shall go into. For example, a man came to me the other day to know whether he shonhl or should not re.ad for honours in the final School of Litenc Humanlores, and ho took my .advice upon that. That is the kind of case which is constantly occurring. 2738. T)o you examine them individually ? — We examine them [lartly ourselves and partly by means of examiners wliom the delegacy allows us to employ. 2739. Is there a matriculation examination : — Yes, there is a slight inatricul.ation examination, but it is more form.al than re.al. All th.it the university insists upon is that we shall be made certain that the young man coming to us is likely to receive educa- tional benefit from becoming a matriculated member of the university. This of course leaves it (juite open to us to rdlow persons to enter without exami- nation. Thus, if a man brings us a certificate of being a B.A. of an university, we do not examine him. For instance, we have had one this term with the B.A. certificate of the college .at Toronto. What it is worth I do not know, but it was enough to indicate that he was a fit person to come, and we did not exanune him. 2740. AYe hear that as a class they !irc wcll- beh.aved, is that so ? — We have very little fault to find with them and very much pr.aisc to give them. 2741. Some of them have left colleges and have become unattached students afterwards, I suppose? — Yes, and there is a considerable body of that descrip- tion. I said that we had lost by migration 310; Isce tliat we have received by migration 178 in the same time. 2742. Of those 178, would any considerable pro- portion represent men who had been dismissed from their colleges? — If you mean liy dismissed men told to remove their names for not being able to pass examinations, I should say that out of the 178, fully 140 were of this kind. 2743. Do you think that it is desirable or not that they should be allowed to migrate under those circum- stances from colleges ? — I think it is bad on both sides. I think it tends to reduce the discipline in the colleges to a certain extent, and to give those young men moi’e freedom than they possesseil before. 2741. With regard to that portion of the class, have you had reason to think that they were less well coudujted than others? — I had occasion about a year ago to go through our minute book upon this point, and the conclusion which we came to was that the number of offences scored in the minute book against men who had migrated from colleges was, compara- tively to their numbers, more than fourfold that of the other students. 27 15. I suppose that some who migrate from colleges m.ay do so for economical reasons ? — Yes ; we have also had one or two instances of men coming to us as to a Mons Sacer when they liavc quan'elled with the authorities of their college on some trivial Q 6223. question, such as permission to live in lodgings before their 12 terms were over; such cases, however, are very rare. 2746. The gre.at majority of them are the very ])ersons to whom economy is an object, 1 suppose ? — (^uit(? so ; the nundjcr that are not poor are a small fraction of tlio whole. 2747. Would it in your opinion be desirable that the university should found exhibitions or scholar- ships to be given to the more deserving of them by competitive examination ? — My exjierience on that point is unfavourable to the giving of scholarships to our men. We h.ave at iiresent a ceTh.aiu number of exhibitions given us by London companies, two by the Grocers’ Company, .and one by the Clothworkers’ Company. At our last election of a Grocers’ exhibitioner, when we examined in what is the easiest and best subject to examine in, namely, classics, we had only five competitors, and of those five only three were found worthy of any considera- tion at all. On the other side the Clothworkers’ exhibition is given for natural science ; for that, in three successive ex.aminations, the number of c.andi- dates have been three, then two, and this year one, and in the last case the one was not considered by the examiner rvorthy of the prize, so that the thing fell through. 2748. Do you think that if their instruetiou were better provided for .and organised the results of such rewards might be different? — It is possible, but I do not look forw.ard to it with any great Jio])e. 2749. {Mr. Bernard.') Il.ave any of the un.attached students obtained open scholarships or exhibitions in colleges ? — 'J’wo have done so this term. Generally three or four in a year do so. 2750. AVould not one of those si udents who h.ave obt.ained scholarships or exhibitions in colleges have been likely to compete for a scholarship offered to unattached students ? — All I can s.ay is that they did not compete. One of the students who succeeded this term w.as placed at the head of a list of six scholars in a college examination ; he never thought well to come in for our exhibition, although he is a very poor man. 2751. Is there attached to those exhibitions .any condition of need which has to be ju'oved to any person or authority ? — It is the usu.al condition, and is not very stringent. There must bo some need of assistance, which m.ay be made fairly elastic. 2752. It would not have been likely that that would be a dissuading motive ? — Not in this case, and I should have thought not in any. I h.ave no reason to give why this young man did not com- pete. The exhibitions .are not worth very much, he m.ay have thought that they would commit him to the body and bind him in honour to stay with us ; that to go to a college after that might be an offence to us, and not show good feeling ; but I am bound to say that most men who get our exhibitions use them as a kind of stepping-stone to c.arry them up into a college, and tliat the general eftect of exhibitions has beeu to lose the men to us instead of retaining them. 2753. {Chairman.) Were they enabled to go to a college by means of the exhibitions which they had gained as unattached students ? — That is the re.sult ; still, a man who has held one of these exhibitions is more able than he would otherwise have been to pay for a higher style of education. 2754. {Mr. Bernard.) But he ceases to hold the exhibition when he goes to the college ? — Yes; but during the time he has held it, he has economised so far. 2755. {Dr. Bellamy.) Perliaps he used it to get higher tuition? — Y’^es. One cannot object to the result which follows. 2756. {Chairman.) You spe.ak of what he would get in the college as a higher style of educ.ation. Sup- posing that the university maile such a provision as it ought to make for this class of students, is there any reason why it should not be equ.al to the style of edu- cation in the college ?— I think that living together is X OXFORD. Rev. G. \r. Kilchin, M.A., and Rev. G. S, Ward, M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. 162 UNIVERSITY or OXFORD COMIVIISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. G. TV. Kitchin, M.A., and Rev. G. S. Ward, M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. a great thing: one cannot overrate the value to a young man of being in a college where the educational standard is high and where there is a large number of young men studying the same subjects ; he talks about his work in his walks, and at meals, and so on, and men thus become imbued with an education which they cannot get, in anything like the same extent, as unattached students. 2757. It has been suggested to us that there might be provided for this class of students a library and hall with a kitchen attached in which »ipou cheap terms those who wished could take their meals ; have you considered such a suggestion ? — Yes ; as to a library, thanks to the university at the outset, thanks also to Dr. Pusey and Dr. Liddon, and I may add to Jlr. Gladstone, we have a very good library, both lending and permanent, and the room is often full. 2758. Is it held in a large commodious place ? — We have had it doubled in size this long vacation ; it is now a room two thirds the breadth of this room and half the length. 2759. Does that appear to you a commodious room for 300 students ? — I am accustomed to so little, that I am very proud of it. 2760. How many can read at a time ? — I should think a dozen. 2761. Do you think that the institution of a hall and kitchen where they might have provision made for their meals upon cheap terms if they chose to use it, would be for their advantage ? — They have it already if they like to use it, in the form of a club which has been established by the men themselves with a little advice and assistance from Mr. Ward and myself. All through the earlier period of the club’s life it was supported by one or two of them who happened to be better off than the others, and who laid down a considerable sum of money for the purpose. It is a private house close by the office of the delegacy, where they get a very good dinner indeed for Is. Qd. in the evenings : I have been at luncheon there to- day, and I had as good a plate of beef as I could wish to have, and plenty of it, and some bread, and a glass of very tolerable sherry, for 9rf. 2762. {Prof. Smith.') Is the club sclf-supi)orting? — It is self-supporting ; Ihei'c is the bill of fare which I brought away out of the diniug-room. 2763. {Dr. Bellam//.) But tliere must be a sub- scription ? — Yes, there is a subscription at entrance, and we ])ay I2s. 6d. a term. What struck me most about it was that the quality was so good for the money. 2764. {Chairman.') There also, I suppose, the ac- commodation must be confined for such a number of students ? — Yes, it is ; all tlie tables were crammed full when I was there, and I got there rather late. 2765. The advantages of association which you think so important in the colleges would be better obtained if you had a large spacious library and a hall more like that of a college, would they not ? — No doubt. They have two or three weak little clubs of their own, but they are not strong enough in their own means to carry them out. 2766. Except the peculiar class you mentioned who are only now and then resident, what is the age at which they come ? — It is very much the same as in the case of the other students. The tendency is to be a little older, but sometimes a little younger curiously enough. We liave had boys at 15 matricul.ate. 2767. Do they on the whole pass through the uni- versity in about the same time as other students, or do they remain longer ? — I think if you take tlie average you must allow that they remain longer, because of those persons whom I have mentioned already and others who keep the average down very much ; but if you take the class of jmung men tvho come at the age of 18 or thereabouts, and go through the university without a break, without going aw.ay to be schoolmasters or clergymen, they pass (piite as well as the undergraduates do. 2768. Do they generally intend to fake e combined under one nninagement and prob.ably govenied by a Avorking council appointed in some way by the university, Avhich Avould not be a mere council of reference. Hut since Magdalen Hall has been turned into a college, and its buildings, scholar- ships, and otlier endoAvments arc no longer av.ail- able for that pui'pose, there seems to be nothing to Avork upon, lieyond the living attached to the head- ship of 8t. Edmund Il.all, and a few schohirships .at St. Mary Hall, there is no emlowraent, and it does not appe.ar to me that the means exist of forming and su])porting ;i sep.ar.ate society out of the halls. Tha t being the case, tlie conclusion to Avhich I have come is that it Avould certainly be best for the halls them- selves, and I bclicA'e best for the university, that the halls should be i)i the c.ase of .all except New Inn Hall absorbed into the adjoining colleges, the members being taken on the books of the colleges, and the colleges being intiaisted Avith the I'uture iulministiaition of their affairs. Ncav Inn Hall stands on an entirely different footing: it is not :i(lj:icent to any college, it is in a very remote st)-eet, and in a situation, to some extent, nnsnitable for .academic residence ; and if the Connnissionci-s and Pailiatncnt tho'.ight tit to discon- tinue thiit luill, 1 prestime that it wo’.ild be naturally disposed of for its money value. It is a large site vei’y suitable for business j)urposes, which Avould provide a veiy considerable sum av.iilabie for some public puri)ose in the university. In my contiexion Avitli, :uul my interest in the unattached students, I have thought that in that Av.ay capital might be i)rovided to raise suitable buildings for the un.attached students. At any rate, considering that halls have in times past been useful to the poorer students, the ]n’ocecds of the sale of New Inn Hall inight Avith advantage be fairly applied to that purpose. 2827. {Mr. Bernard.) Would New Inn Hall itself be a suitable building for that purpose? — I think not, it is a A'ery poor building, it consists of a few small rooms and a very old-fashioned house. 2828. Of coni'se I me.an supposing the requisite structural alterations Avere made in the interior?--! do not think the building could be adapted to the use of the unattached students, and the site is a very undesind)le one; it is A'ery remote. Mr. Ward Avithdrew. 2829. {Chairman, to Mr. Kiichin.) You, I tinder- stand, are one of the two gentlemen. Professor ilax Milller being the other, Avho have been a])]rointed to represent the Taylor Institution before us ? — ^Yes. 2830. Will you tell us how the teaching of modern langn.ages is at present answering in the Taylor In- stitution ; Avhal number of students are there ? — I have taken the o])portunity of preptiring a schedule in ansAver to that very question which I Avill hand in. The result come to is this; that on the aver.age of tlie last seven years the French teacher has had a little over 12 ]mpils in his classes e.ach term; the German teacher has had 16; tlie Italian teacher an average of 5.1, and the Spanish teacher an aA'erage of 4. The Avholc number of the membei-s of the university, Jiltogether, being taught !)A' the four teachers Avhom aa'C have appointed .and set going in the building amounting to .a little umler 39 in the tenn on sin average of stwen years. 2831. Arc any means tideen in the univcr.dty to X 3 OXFORD. Ilev. a. W. KiSehin, M.A. (out Rev. (t. S Ward, M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. 166 UNIVERSITY or OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. G. W. Kitchin, M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. encourage the study of these languages by young men? — The university does very little in that way; all that the university can be said to do in the matter is that French and German are now allowable sub- jects under group B of the final schools in the Pass School. The tutors in the History School, with which I am connected, also recommend their pupils to become acquainted with one at least of the most important languages for the sake of its literature, and the Taylorian Institution has the power under its statutes of offering a yearly scholarship of 50/. for one year, and an exhibition of 25/. for one year for com- petition amongst members of the university. 2832. Is there always competition for those prizes ? — I do not remember any instance of their not being awarded in French or German. If we have tin Italian or a Spanish competition, the number of com- petitors is small. But there is one grievance of which the tmdergraduates complain, which is, that when we have a German exhibition there seems always to be a German ready to take it, and when there is a French exhibition there is always a Frenchmen going in for it. 2833. Perhaps you would suggest as a qualification that natives of the countries in whose language the prize was offered sliould not be allowed to compete ? — I should not be prepared to recommend anything so unpopular. 2834. Although such a proposal might be un- popular, would it be fair ? — I suspect that if the Englishmen would work they might beat the foreigners ; as the most important jiart of the ex- amination lies, not in the vernacular, but in the literature, and in the early history of the languages. Thus, for in.stance, fliis year Ave are going to have a French competition. We have as examiner a gentle- man who is extremely strong in ProA-en^al and in the dialects of the French up to the 15th century ; and I have no doubt that the candidates Avill have a severe examination in old French. That Avould be very difficult for a man who being a Frenchman could read and write and talk French with ease, hut did not know very much of the history of his own language. 2835. {Mr. Bernard. ~\ Of late years it has been held, has it not, that the object of those scholarships Avas not to secure excellence in the colloquial use of those languages, but such a knoAvledge of their literature and philology as to make the study of them a real academical study ? — Certainly. 2836. ( CItairman.') Are they in any Avay connected with what 1 may describe as the philological dejAart- ment of the university course ? — Not properly speaking so. Originally the university chai-ged the Taylor Institution Avith the maintenance of the pro- fessorship Avhich Professor Max Muller formerly held, but our funds Avere not found to be strong enough to bear that, and about 10 years ago the university took Professor Max Muller away from us, and I think Amry properly established him in a university professorship, while it enabled us to dedicate our funds to our proper purpose of im|)ro\fing the fine library which we have of the literatures of the different couiurie.s, and to other objects which Ave are bound to carry out. 2837. (A/r. Bernard.) Professor Max Miiller \\'as then professor, not of philology, but of modern European languages, Avas he not ? — Yes. 2838. {Chairman.) Do you think there Avould be adA^antage in any scheme of utilising the Taylorian Institution for the purpose of appointing diffeiont university teachers and professors in the linguistic branch of knoAvledge ? — I believe that that was not the main object of Sir Robert Taylor in establishing the institution, but rather that there should be a really fine collection of the literature and belles lettres of Europe, and that if Ave Avent further it should be rather in the direction of teaching the modern lan- guages than on Ihe philological side. I am only giving my oAvn opinion upon the matter; Professor jMax Muller may hold entirely different opinions upon this subject. 2839. I collect from your answer to Mr. Bernard just noAV, that in practice the institution has deviated from that design, and that it no longer teaches the languages so much for colloquial use, as in a scientific manner ? — I think the point to Avhieh Mr. Bernard referred atos the direction giA’en to the studies of the university by the two scholarship.s. 2840. Could the colleges do nothing to encourage students Avho are ignorant of French and German to go to those teachers to acquire those languages ? — Unless it became a move substantive part of the uni- versity examination system the colleges would be vei'y reluctant to drive their men to lectures which, hoAvever useful, did not pay in the examination, for that is Avhat it comes to. 2841. Of course if it were thought desirable to promote the study of those languages it Avould be quite possible, Avould it not, to introduce them into the examinations ? — There are many jealousies. 2842. {Prof. Smith.) Leaving jealousies alone, Avhat is your opinion of the possibility and advisability of requiring some knowledge of some modern lan- guage from every man who takes a degree in this university ? — I think that nothing could be more wholesome. I should be entirely in favour of it personally as a most desirable thing. I should like it, however, to be made part of a future matriculation examination, if the university ever comes to have such a thing, as one of those things which a young man ought to know something about before he comes here. I think Ave are all agreed that the university already teaches quite as much in the Avay of rudiments as she can Avell bear. 2843. Do you approve of the arrangement at jAresent existing in the School of Modern History, according to Avhich no knowledge of a foreign language is required even from candidates who take up foreign history ? — At the History Board Avhen we have discussed it our view has been that eAmry examiner must use his own discretion in that matter ; and that Avhile examiners give very considei’able weight to the foreign languages, and encourage young men to take up subjects which involve a knowledge of foreign languages, that the business of our board is not to teach foreign languages nor to insist upon their being taught. 2844. (Mr. Bernard.) I think we Avere told that it is veiy difficult to obtain the highest honours without the knoAvledgo of a foreign language ? — There are only tAvo of the special subjects in our School toAvhicb that applies. 2845. Is it usual now to set passages for trans- lation in the special subject ? — Yes, on one of the papers there are a few passages for translation, but they are not long, and are not intended as tests of a knowledge of the language. I haA'e myself set the Commines paper in our examinations ; no philological question is ever asked ; and the passages set on the Italian snbjeet, Machiavelli’s “ Prince,” or “ Art of War,” have been so A^ery simple that men, even with- out knowing much Italian, could puzzle them out. 2846. ( Chairman.) Do you not think that if the object is really to introduce a knoAvledge of modern languages it should be done directly, and not indi- rectly? — Quite so; and if one man brought in the French Revolution and another man brought in the Indian subject, we are bound to give the Indian man as good a chance as the other, even though his work invoh^ed no knowledge of a foreign language. 2847. Supposing that a man was acquainted Avith the history of the times of which Philippe de Corn- mines wrote, from the English books, and knew the substance of the history Avell, how would you place him ? — I think he must not then take in the PhilijApe de Commines subject, because the object of a special subject in the History School is to compel young men to read the original authorities. 2848. Is there anything in the shape of a want in the Taylorian Institution which you think the uni versity ought to supply ? — In the first place I think Ave might have attached to us (not out of our oAvn university of oxford commission: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 167 funds, foi' they nre only able to bear what they have at present) a professor either of Knglish literature or of foreign literature. I am not quite sure whether a professor of English literature would really belong to us. I have no doubt that modern European lan- guages might be made to include the early English language, and certainly that literature deserves a professor. 2849. It has been suggested to us by more wit- nesses than one that there should be a professor of English literature, and I think that the Hebdomadal Council has recommended it in connexion with modern history, if 1 am not mistaken ? — 1 should be disinclined to su[>port that myself. It seems to me that a modern English literature professor attached to the History School would be rather out of his place. 2850. (il/r. Bernard.') At present is it the case that a professor in the university is attached to any school at all ? — No, it is merely a way of speaking. 2851. (^Chairman.) The Board of Studies repre- sents what I suppose was meant by the word “ School ” ? — Yes. We have had it under our con- sideration at the History Board that there is a great want in the university of a professor of English literature ; but not because it was part of our proper business. However, I think it might not be going much out of the line of the Taylor Institution, if it were attached to that institution. In speaking of a professorship of European literature I speak not so much for myself as for other members of our body, who think there ought to be such a professor. I think it is improbable that we should often get a very good one. 2852. (Mr. Bernard.) Sometimes he would be a professor of one language or gi\jap of languages, and sometimes of another, according to tiie men you found ? — Yes ; I think it ought to be very elastic. 2853. (^Chairman.) Is there any other suggestion that you woidd like to make to the Commission ? — I think that, practically, all the rest is matter of detail. Our librai'ian is very badly paid, and the library in some respects is still very deficient. 2854. (4/r. Bernard.) Have you anything to say about the position of the teachers ? — The position of the teachers is a source of constant difficulty to us. The teachers do not have larg;e classes. In the pre- sent term Monsieur Bue, the French teachei', has 19 pupils ; Dr. Hamann, the German teacher, 15 ; Signor de Tivoli, the Italian teacher, 11 ; and Seuor Lucena, the Spanish teacher, 4. That does not re- present a very lively state : they are only paid 150/. a year apiece as a kind of retaining fee. In addition to that they get a 1/. fee per term from the young men, and the curators assist them a little further by doubling those fees under certain conditions ; we also add a small sum 10/., or 20/., if they give an extra class for the more advanced students. But Avith all that Ave feel that the Avhole thing has not so much life in it as it should have. Amongst the 19 pupils that Monsieur Bue has, there are some who have come only tAvice or three times to the lectures. 2855. Yet you have good instruction? — Yes; Ave have good teachers. 2856. In Dr. Hamann, for instance, you have a doctor of philosophy, a German gentleman of ex- tensive knowledge and acquirements? — Yes, and he is a very good teacher. 2857. {Chairman.) Are those gentlemen all natives of the countries Avhose languages they teach ? — They are. 2858. Are you aware whether in any of the colleges the tutors of those colleges give any lectures in French or in German ? — I am not aware of any ; I have myself lectured in Commines in the original French ; but only so fai’ as was necessary for historical purposes. 2859. I suppose it may be true at the university, as it is in public schools, that one great difficulty in teaching those languages is because the teaching is not dovetailed into the general system of the place ? —Yes. 2860. But there must be a great many tutors in Oxford Avho understand those languages, perhaps not well enough to speak them like a native, but quite well enough to hold classes in them, to read German or F rench books with students ? — A considerable number of tutors could do it, no doubt, if it was understood to be part of their work. 2861. Do you not think that if any effort were made in that direction it might be a stimulus to those studies? — It Avould give a stimulus to those studies if they were brought into the examination .system and I think only under those circumstances. 2862. In short, you have no suggestion to make in respect, to the teachei’S ? — I think not. 2863. We should be all desirous, if we could, to raise the position and emoluments of the teachers, but if they have not a proportionate amount to do, it does not appear to be practicable ? — No. There is also a great difficulty with some of the teachers that they take private pupils as Avell as university pupils, and they are in fact acting against their OAvn interest in having students in our clas.ses. When they get a class of 8 or 10 men learning for nothing, or next to nothing, some of those men would otherwise be their priAmte pupils, and pay them a good fee. 2864. {Dr. Bellamy.) Does that operate to any extent ? Do they largely take pupils amongst uni- versity men ? — I think they do to a considerable extent. I may .say that the case is very different with different teachers ; they are not all to be put on the same footing. The witness withdrew. OXFORj Rev. G. W. Kitchin, M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. J. E. Thorold Rogers, Esq., M.A. (Worcester College), examined. 2865. {Chairman.) You were formerly professor of political economy in the university, and yon are noAv lecturer in political economy in Worcester College ? — Yes. 286^6. The Commissioners are sitting here to obtain such information as they can to enable them to make the statement Avhich is required by the Act of Parlia- ment, the 11th clause of which is in these terms: — “ The Commissioners shall not apjnove a statute so made by a college, until they have published in such “ form as to them may seem fit a statement Avith “ respect to the main j)urposes relative to the uni- “ versity for which, in their opinion, provision should “ be m.ade under this Act, the sources from Avhich “ funds for those purposes should be obtained, and “ the principles on which payments from the colleges “ for those purposes should be contributed” ? — That point I liad information of from one of the secretaries. I concluded that it Avas to be interpreted in the light of the 16 th clause, and that xxpon that point it was possible that the Commissioners might Avish to ask my opinion. I was asked to come here by my college. 2867. We shall be glad to have your opinion upon these points. First of all, Avhat, in your opinion, are the purposes of the university Avithin the scope of that clause for which provision is Avanted ? — I cannot see how it is possible to give an opinion about Avhat the university may want, except by stating what one’s opinion is about the relation between the colleges and the university. It seems to me that the colleges are, practically speaking, the persons who supply the uni- versity Avith what I may call the material for exami- nation, and that there is very little opportunity for anything being done in the university by any other teachers, Avhether they are paid by the university, or Avhether they are free teachers in the higher studies of the university, except Avith the consent of the colleges. The colleges ajxprojiriate the Avhole, or nearly the whole, of the undergraduates’ time, and, as X 4 J. E. T. Rogers, Esq,, M.A. IfiS U>JIVERSITr OF OXFORD COMJIISSIOX : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J. E. T. liuyers. Esq., M.A. 29 Oct. 1S7T. a. coiiisequonco. it seems to mo that the hi^lier ethica- tion ot the university is, to ;i great extent, relative to the efllciimcy of tlie higher eiluoation of the colleges. 2868. In fact if the collegiate sj'stctn is maintained, yon think that tlie use of the profe>ssorial system for teaching must be limited? — That has been the ex- perience, I presume, of every one in Oxford for many years j)ast. 2860. Under those circumstances do you think it is desinib'le considerably to enlarge the piofcssoriatc as has been suggested )>y the ditl'erent boards of studies ? — I should tiiink it extremely undesirable unless yo>i are prepared to limit the function of teach- ing in colleges to something much narrower than it is at present. 1 am cotivinced that the higher studies of the university are simply starved l>y ilie colleges, and by the action of the teaching of the colleges. It seems to me inevitable. The college tutors I think should be limited to the function generally speaking of preiairing undergraduatt's for the necessary part of the university teaching, and the higher teaching of the university should be ojteu jiartly to what J mtiy venture u])on calling free trade and partly to teachers who might l e increased in numb(‘r, and who at any rate might be made more eilicicnt. 2870. With respect to what you call free trade, does it not exist as far as the law of the univ ersity is con- cerned at present ? — As far as the law is concerned at lU'eseut, it is possible ; but, as far as the practice of the colleges go, it is extinguished, for the colleges entirely teach all the higher branches with the excep- tion of course of physical science, the teaching of which I think is as perfect as can be. Hut, with that exception, it seems to me that the colleges have completely exterminated the free teachers, and further they have it in their power to do so, and it is their interest to do so as they almost always constitute the examiners of the university. It appears to me that it is an e.xtrcmely vicious system. The development of the higher teaching is restrained. In short tlie college tutors audit their own accounts. 2871. Then would you suggest that th.ey should be confined to teaching passmen ? — 1 think that it would be very much better for the university if they were. 1 do not want to use the word invidiously, but they monopolise the teaching, and the .system is strengthened by the growth of the number of married tutoi's in O.xford ; the moi’e married tutors there are the more likely it is that the scale of the higher teaching will be lowered. 2872. It has been suggested by other witnesses that the college system of teaching those subjects which they do teach enables each individual amongst the undergraduates to be dealt with more closely thair would bo possible under any other system, do you concur in that 0 ])inion ? — 1 think that if the college tutor is perpetually looking after the undergraduates, the teaching, of course always interpreted by his abilities, is likely to he :vs good as he can make it, but I think it is extremely unlikely that with a hirge increase of the tnarried tutor sj'stem special super- vision can be given. 2873. Some witnesses have suggested what you appear to favour, viz., the removal of either all the tuition or of that which is intended for the higher class of students, from the colleges to the university, but they have suggested that this should be done by means of jirofessors and readers ; how would you distinguish the functions of readers?— It is exti'emely difficult to answer a question about what can be done by way of the public teaching of the university. The difficulty lies in this; juiblic ojiinion in Oxford is utterly dead. If a professor neglects his duties, or does not even make his appearance at his lecture.s, very little beyond a jest is made of it. 2874. Would that be the case if they were lectures for which there was a demand ? — I can see no de- mand, for instance, which is more urgent than the teaching of applied mathematics. The study of this subject is rapidly becoming extinct in the university. In what way, in the absence of anything like a genuine public opinion, is it possible to conceive that any enlargement of the professoriate can be useful ? 2875. You have spoken of the Natural Science School which is carried on by the university? — Applied mathematics, as I understand, is the principa topic of the higher teaching in an important lina school. As 1 understand, that is very much languish- ing in Oxford ; the teaching of juirc mathematics in Oxford 1 believe is extremely good. 2876. There seems to be a difference of opinion amongst different gentlemen upon the question whether the professors should teach, or wdiether they should be only for purposes of what is called research ; what is your ojiinion upon that subject ? — There have been a great many persona of coinjiarntive leisure in Oxford for many centuries, and I am not aware that the result has been anj'thing like research; I see no ground for the belief that if you are to create a number of other [daces of comparative ease and com- fort the result would be any considerable addition to research. 2877. You Ihiidv that many of them would be likely to liecome sinecures ? — 1 think it is almost certain. I know of no instance of research in Oxford sinc.c the days of Ilickes, rvlio was turned out of his office for being a non-juror in the time of William Ilf. 2878. Locke, I suppose, might have been consi- dered au example, but he wnis not a [rrofessor ? — He w’as turned out of his studentship. 2879. Then we may collect that you arc not an advocate for the foundation of new jirofcssorships with a view to research? — I think it is very doubtful, unless, as I have already stated, a more genuine spirit of public ojiinion were developed in the place. Why there is no public ojiinion seems to me quite intelligible ; the university has been rent by political and theological factions. 2880. Is there in jour opinion any remedy for that ? — I think that the hapjjiest thing for us would be to lose our members for the university in Parlia- ment. 2881. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you think that it would go a great way towards improving the jirofessoriate if tlie members for the university were removed from Parliament ? — I sujipose 1 have lived in Oxford longer than most people, and I confess I think that almost everything in Oxford is treated :is a jiolitical or a theological question, and tlnit the interests of the university arc the last thing thought of. 2882. {Chairman.) We are desirous of ascertaining wdiat you think maybe done to remove those evils that you sjieak of. You do not really attach much import- ance to removing the members for the university from Parliament ? — I cannot help thinking that has been one of the causes of the evil, although there are others of course as well. 2883. Will you favour us with any suggestions by which you consider that those evils which you sup- po.se to exist could be diminished ? — I think that the university should I'cquire of its jmblic teachers a roll of attendance at their lectures, and that they should have reported to them information every term of the number of lectures they have given, and of the per- sons who availed themselves of their services in the univei'sity. At tlie jirefcnt time it seems to me that the university legislates in the dark. 2884. In has been suggested by some gentlemen that the professors ought to have moie influence in the nomination of examiners; are you of that opinion ? — I think that the present system of appoint- ing examiners has been at times nearly as bad as it could be, and that one should remove from the ex- aminations all suspicion of unfairness. Persons freely talk in Oxfoi-d .about the fact that the present system of appointing ex.aminers leads at any rate to an ajiparent f.avouritism in the distrilmtion of classes. I think it is very unlikely that th.at is I'eally the case, but the fact that that can be said is by no means satisfactory. I think that the apjiointment of ex- aminers by professors would be useful, but I confess it apjiears to me that one of the best ways on which UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 169 the university could net in its examinations would he to follow the exiini[)le of the university of London, viz., to invite oxainiiiers to send in their names and to pay them properly. Their pay is ludicrously small ; 1 s])eak with .somo confidence u])on that point because I examine myself a very gi-eat deal for the Civil Service Commission. 2885. {I'rof. Smith.) \'ou have also examined very frequently for this univei’sity, 1 believe ? — 1 have, and I have also a great deal to do with the selection of examiners by the tw(j functions of each of which I am a delegate, and which have done enormous service to the country generally. One of those, the local examinations, has done more to raise the general education of the country than anything else ; and the other, the Public Schools Delegacy, is also doing very much. I am also an examiner for the university of London. But I have a great deal to do with the selection of examiners, both for the board of local examinations and for the joint l)oard. I confess that I think our system of selection, though it is not all that could be desired, would be very useful in the university. 2886. {Chairman.) That is that all gentlemen who are willing to serve should send in their names ; the office being well ]>aid. How shotdd they be selected ? — I do not know that anybody could do it better than a committee appointed by the Council for that purpose. 2887. For each j)articular occasion? — The ex- aminers here are ap])ointed at definite periods in the year, generally in the Lent Term. 2888. Upon that committee of the Council would it in your opinion be fitting that the professors should be represented P — The professors are in the Council, and they might bo selected in that Avay. The danger that one has of committing to the professors in Oxford the function that they have now is shown by the constant complaint that the professors put in jbooks that they have never taken the trouble to look at. Great complaints have been made about the Law School in that respect. I think it is desirable that the functions of the teaciiers and of the examiners should be separate; that it is undesirable that the teachers should be the examiners. It is the practice of the Civil Service Commissioners never to appoint persons as examiners if they can help it out of a body of known and active teachers. 2889. {Prof, Smith.) Of course }'ou ai’e aware that the opposite opinion is strongly maintained by persons not in any way connected with Oxford, namely, that no examination can be satisfactory which is not given by persons Avho are well acquainted Avith the details of the teachiug and with the particular mode in Avhich the teaching is carried on ? — I should think that that is not so changeable. For example, a good many persons Avho have left Oxford for four or five years have been appointed, and those examiners liaA’e gene- rally been very satisfactory. 2890. Persons Avho have been college tutors, but who have ceased to be so ? — Yes, there is no objection to that. 2891. The eommon reply to your objection, that in Oxford the tutors examine their own pupils, is that what they really do is to examine the pupils of other persons; are you satisfied Avith that answer, or do you admit that it has any force ? — They do that as well of course. Some time ago it Avas my duty in company Avith a colleague, I being then public ex- aminer, to object strongly to the A’oting of a jirivate tutor in the apportionment of classes. My colleague and I felt very strongly upon the subject, and Ave applied to the Vice-Chancellor at. the time to haAm a statute passed prohibiting the private tutor from examining his pupils, d'hc statute Avas passed, and I imagined that it would be effective ; but the Vice- Chaneellor afierAvard ruled, upon AAdiat ground 1 do not knoAV, that “ examinare” means, “ to ask questions viva voce." I never kneAV that it has that meaning in Latin or in the statute. The college tutor or a priA'ate tutor Avho is interested in the position of his Q 6223. pupils in the class list, is I think a liighly undesirable examiner. I am quite certain it produces great scandal, 2892. Has it occurred to you that if the university Avere to em])loy (;xternal examiners as the university of London does it Avouhl mean that Ave should have to do Avhat the univer.sity of London floes, viz., prepare an elaborate syllabus of the subjects of the examinations? — That is done by the Board of Studies, is it not ? 2893. You think that it Avould not be necessary to go beyond Avhat the Board of Studios has done if Ave had extraneous examiners ? — I cannot speak for the fulness of the regulations laid doAvn by the Board of Stinlies, but I think it is one of the first functions of the university to determine the direction Avhich the studies of persons are to take, and I think that in that particular sketch, like that Avhich aa'qs draAvn up by the committee of Avhich Professor Smith AA'as a member for the examination in higher education of Avomen, there Avas hardly anything to be desired. It is a much better scheme 1 think than that of the university. Upon that point I think very strongly, )mt it is by no means the Avhole. 2891. {Chairman.) Do you think that all the pro- fessors should be resident ? — I think they are all com- pelled to be resident except the law professors. 2895. The poetry professor is not compelled to be resident, is he ? — He is not compelled to be resident, but I think he is only on his old foundation ; his ineome has not been increased, and unless the statutes of the poetry professor were totally altered and his duties modified so as to make him a teacher of Belles Lettres, I do not knoAV that there Avould be any reason Avhy that should be altered. 2896. With regard to such a professorship as that of chemistry, if the lectures required by the university are adequately given, does inconvenience arise from the professor being sometimes absent upon other busi- ness connected Avitb his profession as a chemist ? — Probably not ; but 1 presume that the uniAmrsity appointed the professor for the purpose of his giving instruction personally. 2897. If he Avere resident would he give the instruc- tion in person ? — I presume that he Avould ; other- Avise I cannot see the motive for having a professor of chemistry. 2898. {Prof. Smith.) You mean that he Avould be present to control and supervise ? — Yes. 2899. You do not mean that he Avonld give all the detailed teaching himself? — That would be impossible. There is another professor Avho is non-resident by the old conditions under which he Avas appointed, and that is the professor of mineralogy; who is a very able person indeed, but he is represented here by a very adequate person. 2900. {Chairman.) In those two cases is there ground for saying that research is being prosecuted by means of that professorship, the professor not being upon the spot ? — I am not sufficiently informed of the course of chemistry and mineralogy to be able to ansAver that question ; I am avcII aware that the pro- fessor of mineralogy is a man of great ability ; he is said to be engaged at the British Museum in some of the profoundest questions connected with molecular che- mistry. But in all that I said I exempted the phy- sical science professors from any eomment ; I think that the Avork is admirably done, and the school is cor- respondingly good, I understand. 2901. {Prof. Smith.) You have expressed an opinion that there is a Avant of public opinion in Oxford Avith reference to the discharge of public duties; do you think that if the professorial statutes Avere made someAvhat more stringent in their require- ments the change Avould have any tendency to raise the standard of public opinion ? — I think it is ex- tremely likely that good Avould result if there Avere more active supervision on the part of the authorities of the uniA’ersity OA’er the action of the professors. 2902. You may liaAm noticed that in the statement of the Hebdomadal Council upon the subject of the professoriate, there was a suggestion made, “ That a Y OXFORD. J. E. T. Rogers, Esq., M.A. 29 Oct 1877. 170 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J. E. T. Rogers, Esq., M.A. 29 Oct. 1877. “ board should be constituted by the university which “ should have visitatorial powers with regard to the “ professoriate ” ? — I think that that would be ad- mii able if it was effective. 2903. (^Chairman.) Do you think that it would be likely to work effectively ? — I imagine that when laws are made they will be more or less effectual. At the present moment I think there is nobody who looks to see whether the professor in the university fulfils his statutes. It is an invidious thing for me to refer to, but I was invited myself to draw up the statutes of the professorship which I once held myself, and feeling strongly that the study of political economy is value- less unless it is illusti’ated by historiciil facts, I inserted a clause that the lecturers should lecture on those branches of history which are connected with statis- tical inquiry. I do not think that my successor has ever acted upon those clauses. 2904. {Prof. Smith.) You would not suggest that there should be any minute or close control over the professors but only some kind of general supervision, and that they should have to report to some one ? — I think that the university should have evidence that the professor is efficient and discharges his duties. I presume that the professoriate is intended to assist in the higher studies of the university. I believe that a good deal of the comparative apathy which belongs to these functionaries is due to the fact that they are crowded out of the undergraduates’ time by the college tutors. I believe that in many cases the professoriate would give very much better lectures than the college tutors can give, but at the same time, I repeat that there is a deficient amount of public opiuion on the subject. 2905. {Mr. Bernard^ In whom is the visitatorial power with respect to professors vested ? — In no one. 2906. Who has the power to remove a professor for negligence or violation of the statutes ? — I do not know ; but I presume that it would be done by some decree of Convocation. 2907. Are you aware that it is to be done by the Vice-Chancellor and delegates of appeal in congrega- tion ? — I think I remember that now ; but some time ago, upon a point of privilege we tried to put the delegates of congregation in motion, and w'e were informed by the keeper of tlie archives that there was no machinery to compel them to act. 2908. The machinery in the statutes to maKe them act is that the Vice-Chancellor is to bring the matter before them ; the professor is to have notice ; he is to be heard, and then the Vice-Chancellor and delegates of appeal in congregation are to have power to admonish, and, if necessary, remove the professor. That is the machinery which is provided by the statutes, is it not ? — I have no doubt that what you have quoted is quite correct, but it is antiquated and inoperative. 2909. When you say that it is inoperative, do you mean that if the matter were brought before the Vice- Chancellor by any person who was aware that the sta- tutes relating to a professorship were being violated, there is any reason to believe that the Vice-Chancellor would refuse to take notice of it ? — No ; but I should have thought that the delegates of appeal in congrega- tion are a body of gentlemen who are appointed in the oddest way in the world. 2910. Do you think that if the matter were brought before them by the Vice-Chancellor that body would refuse to take notice of any breach of the statutes? — I did not say that ; but I am strongly of opinion that the constitution of the delegates in congregation is not a good one for the purpose. I should like to refer to another thing. It seems to me extremely undesirable that young men should come up to Oxford with large and practically secure endowments during the whole time that they are at the colleges. For instance, it is not a rare thing for an undergraduate to come to Oxford with 100/. given him by a college and 100/. given him by a school. 2911. {Prof. Smith.) Is not an exhibition of 100/. from a school a rare thing ? — An exhibition from 70/. to 100/. is not at all i-are. I know one particular school where every year a boy goes away with 80/. a year, and he generally gets a scholarship here besides. An undergraduate under those circumstances is nearly as well off as one of the fellows, and I am told on good authority that the scholars who possess these incomes are the most extravagant men iu the college. It seems to me that the Commissioners have power to deal with a matter of this kind ; and I think that the plan which is adopted at Cambridge is infinitely better, under which the undergraduate begins with a small sum from the college and has an increase made to his stipend as he goes on according to his progress. I think that it would be a very much better thing if such a rule was adopted here. It is not a very long time since two colleges having a joint examination for an undergraduate who was rather distinguished as a mathematician were led into some rather unseemly wrangling as to which should have him ; and altogether there is a sort of competition between the colleges for getting the best men by continually increasing endowments. I think it is bad for the discipline of the university. 2912. {Chairman.) It has been suggested as a remedy, that all prize scholarships should be of one uniform value. Do you think that would be a good arrangement? — That might be a remedy, but I think that the plan which is adopted at Cambridge is much more efficient ; that is the case to some extent in one of the schools. The studentship from West- minster at Christ Church is, I believe, the most valu- able scholarship at Oxford ; it is 120/. a year for seven years, but there is also a scholarship which is awarded to boys from Westminster proportionate to the pro- gress that they have made at the university. The present arrangement works ill, I think, both for the discipline and for the conduct of the university. I have sometimes had occasion to notice this in con- nexion with another office which I fill in the uni- versity ; I mean in the Delegacy of lodging-houses. We have had occasionally some trouble from the con- duct of persons in lodging-houses. The fact is, that many of these young men who come up to the uni- versity are persons born in very humble situations, and they are suddenly put in possession of a large sum of money, perhaps half as much, or more than half as much, as their parents and their whole family possess, and their heads are turned by this sudden flow of income upon them. It occurs to me that that is very notable in the university. 2913. Is there any other point to which you wish to direct our attention ? — With regard to sub-section 16 of section 1 6 of the Act, I do not quite know what the clause precisely refers to ; but there are in Oxford several institutions which deal with what may be called the external work of the university. I refer particularly to the local examinations, which contain four branches now, the examination of lads sent from school, the examination of schools, the examination of women under a scheme which gives them a means of ex- amination very closely analogous to that which is given to undergraduates at Oxford, both in pass and class, and the examination of candidates for a musical degi’ee. There is a tendency, I think, to increase the sphere of that delegacy. It seems to me that the delegacy is self-supporting now, and that it does not require any external assistance. I should very much deprecate the delegates themselves being paid. The same sort of re- mark applies to the Joint Board of Oxford and Cam- bridge for the examination of schools. In the case of the two delegacies, which are, to a certain extent, external to the collegiate system, viz., the delegacy for unattached students and the delegacy for lodging-houses, there again the expenses of the lodging-house delegacy are met by the university. It is a question whether that is properly a matter for which the university should find funds. With regard to the unattached students the delegacy is self-supporting. Up to this time, as the Commissioners are no doubt aware, no definite instruction is given by the delegacy to the students, UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 171 but it docs uot appear that they have suffered from it. There are nearly as many undergraduates who pass under what I may call the free trade system of teaching, as pass in the colleges, and they get through their degree in nearly as quick a time. We are trying the experiment, as no doubt Mr. Kitchin has told you, of giving some preliminary teaching, but it was not with my goodwill as one of the delegacy. I would rather have maintained the old free trade system of instruction. Under existing circumstances, the delegacy is quite willing to see unattached students pass from its body into colleges. I have no wish to see those men remain with us to the end of their career. On the contrary, I recognise that the delegacy is intended to do them the greatest service it can, and that if a college can take them and improve their condition they can go. But I very much doubt whether giving scholarships to those unattached students on any considerable scale would be desirable. 2914. Have you any suggestion to make with reference to diminishing the expenses more gene- rally ? — I think it is a pity that in colleges that a more stringent inquiry is not made into the expenditure of the undergraduates. There is one college of late foundation in Oxford which has a very large number of students perpetually seeking admission within its walls, and I am disposed to think that that is partly due to the fact that the parents of young men know precisely what will be the charges to which they will be put ; whereas at most of the colleges the charges that will be incurred by the undergraduates are very indefinite. If colleges adopted the practice of having an officer in their college of such abilities and industry, as for ex- ample Colonel West was at Keble, I have very little doubt that a very great difference would be made in the charges. That applied more to the government of the colleges than to any other function ; but it is understood that the whole of the charges of an under- graduate at Keble are covered by 8H. a year. 2915. {Mr. Bernard.) There may perhaps be some small optional expenses not embraced in that, but, if so, they ai’e the subject of careful examination and super- vision ? — I have heal'd it stated (I do not know with what degree of accuracy) that that amount completely covers the expenses and leaves a surplus. That, of course, is an economy which is far in excess of any- thing that people have experience of in other colleges in Oxford. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o’clock. Tuesday, 30th October 1877. PRESENT : The Right Honoui{able LORD SELBORNE in the Chair. The Right Hon. Mountague Bernard, D.C.L. J The Rev. James Bellamy, D.D. Sir Matthew White Ridley, Bart., M.P. | Professor H. J. S. Sjhth, M.A. The Rev. T. Verb Bayne and T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretaries. - William Odling, Esq., M.A., (Wayuflete Professor of Chemistry,) examined. 2916. ( Chairman.) Will you have the kindness to favour the Commissioners with your views as to the wants of the department of university instruc- tion in which you are concerned ? — Perhaps I may, first of all, call the attention of the Commissioners to the progress which the study is making. The num- ber of students working in the university chemical laboratories, taking an average of the three terms in the year ending Midsummer 1871, was 20, and in several preceding years was a little under 20, from 18 to 20. Since 1871, there has been a continuous increase in the average yearly number of students by aii addition of about six students every year. The average number of students in the year ending last Midsummer was 57, being an increase of 37 on 20 in six years. But the number of students working has been kept down partly by the absolute want of room. During Hilary Terms 1874, 1875, and 1876, several students were positively refused admission for want of room. Of course, the fact of refusal influenced others. The number of students was also kept down by the crowding of students together and the inadequacy of the temporary arrangements that were put up to meet the difficulty ; that is to say, the subject was taught under disadvantages. The old laboratories were sufficient only for an entry of from 36 to 40 students, and in some terms we had as many as 61 students. So that all have worked under disadvantage, and some with very makeshift arrangements indeed. I think there is reason to expect a more rapid increase of students on the completion of the new laboratories, as also a larger proportion of students working six days a week. At present about two-thirds of the men work three days a week, and one-third work six days a week ; and those who desire to work six days are rather discouraged from doing so, owing to the want of room. 2917. Are the new laboratories now in progress? — The new laboratories are now in progress. With the additions that are now in course of construction the entire laboratories will be fitted to accommodate satisfactorily from 120 to 150 students, according to the proportion, working six days and three days a week. That will be about two and a half times the number at present. 2918. {Mr. Bernard.) That would quite satisfy you, would it not ? — Yes, on that ground. That is all which 1 desire to say with regard to the progress of the study and with regard to the likelihood of the future. I may now call attention to the divisions of the study and the wants of each. The first division is the ordinary laboratory work. This consists in the study and practice of the methods of chemical investi- gation, with a view to appreciate chemical evidence, and to understand and estimate views and results based on experiment. To facilitate reference this section of chemical work may be called analytical chemistry ; it is not an exact designation, but it will suffice as a means of reference. A familiarity with the chief methods of chemical investigation is capable of being fairly tested by practical examination. On the completion of the new laboratories this element of chemical teaching will be satisfactorily provided for, except in respect to the remuneration of the chief demonstrators and the number of the junior demonstrators. I may say that, except in regard to a few of the more advanced students, this portion of the teaching is only superintended by myself. It is taught mainly by the ^dvichian Demonstrator and the senior demonstrator under him, and by two junior demonstrators. The Aldrichian Demonstrator is paid from a separate fund ; 220/. a year, his function being really that of a distinct professor, 2919. {Chairman.) Is it desiiable that you should give more personal superintendence to it, or do you give as much as you think the wants of the school I’equires ? — I do. I was going to refer to that again further on. At the same time I should say that the Y 2 OXFORD. J. E. T. Rogers, Esq., M.A. 29 Oct, 1877. William Odling, Esq., M.A. 30 Oct. 1877. 172 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, OXFORD. William Odling, Esq., M.A. 30 Oct. 1877. remuneration of the Aldrieliian Demonstrator is made up to about 500/. a year in a way which I will refer to presently. 1 .suppose a remuneration of about 500/. a year or a little more might be fairly satisfac- tory. The next demonstrator has a salary of 150/. a year. lie is a man, as he is required to be, of very considerable experience in teaching ; and I am al>le to get a man of this kind at this rate bj^ the accidental circumstance of the gentleman having some private means of his own, and moreo\ er being glad to take advantage of coming to Oxford for the sake of getting an Oxford degree. If he left me 1 should have very great difhculty indeed in filling iqi his place. I could not get so efficient a man at the same price. That is I think all I have to say with reference to that department. The next department is that of the higher laboratory work which would consist in the complete working out of special subjects and methods. To facilitate reference, I would call this department that of chemical research, which ag.ain is not an exact appellation, but it suffices for reference. All tlie material means for this work are provided in the laboratories, but the encouragement to it is wanting. It is a branch which cannot pos.sibly be tested by class examination, and as a result it is scarcely entered upon, although it is most desirable that it should be, especially by those who wish to be chemi- cal teachers elsewhere, for whom there is a very large demand. And I woiihl ask the Commission to con- sider the advisability of encouraging this work by grants something in the nature of temporary fellow- ships, subject to the condition of working in tlie laboratory, and taking a part in the teacdung. The sort of notion 1 have would be that men should have the value of a fellowship s.ay for a couple of years, provided that they were doing satisffictory work during that time, and that their fellow.ships should be capable of renewal from year to year so long as they Avere doing work in the laboratory, either im- proving themselves or advancing the science, or helping the teaching of the place. 2920. In what manner should they be chosen ? — I think, although at present the number of men who take a tirst class in chemistry is not veiy great, such a thing might be offered to several of those Avho most distinguished themselves in the class list. 2921. Do j ou mean that it should be offered as a reward of success in a competitive examination ? — The class e.xamination is to some extent a competitiio examination ; that is to say, the men are placed in classes, 2922. It is hardly competitive, is it ? — It is a com- petition for a ]dace. 2923. In which there may be any number of win- ners ? — Yes. There may be any number in th.at sense ; but to those of the first class who would Avish to undertake such a Avork, I think the offer might be made. 2924. That is to saA% without any further examina- tion ? — Yes, Avithout any further examination. 2925. With whom aa'ouUI the power of selection rest? — Of course that is an invidious matter, but the professor (that is myself) and the examiners Avould necessarily knoAV the men best, and might select subject to some board of control. 2926. {Dr. Bellamy.) Hoav long do you suppose that the value of a felloAVship Avould be likely to keep a man in the laboratories ? — Not very long. 2927. He could get more very soon as a teacher himself, I suppose ? — Yes, he could get more as a teacher himself. And not only that, in the depart- ment of chemistry there is a great demand from manu- factories. Many manufacturers employ three or four chemists, and they give them salaries ranging from 300/. to 1,000/. a year. 2928. {Sir M. W. Ridley.) Have you contemplated Avhat number of felloAVships Avouhl be sufficient in that point of vicAV 1 — No, I have not. 2929. {Chairman.) What number would haA-e room to do useful work in the laboratory ? — From half a dozen to a dozen, but I have no doubt that if a class of men of that kind with felloAvships Avere Avorking there, that Avould in itself found a school of tlie descrip- tion desired, and men Avho had not the advantage of a stipend or honorarium Avould also AVork tliere at the time. It Avould be the means of establishing or of en- couraging a branch of study Avhich it is very desirable to encourage. 2930. {3Ir. Bernard.) If there Avere only one or tAvo such fellowships at first, you Avould be Avell satis- fied ? — Very Avell satisfied to begin Avith ; of course it Avoiild be entirely an exjieriinent. 2931. "ion spoke, I think, of a fclloAv being re- elected to or continued in his felloAvship after the expiration of his term ; Avith Avhoiu Avould it rest to determine Avhether that should be done ? — That I haA-e not thought of as a matter of detail, but he Avouhl naturally- be AA'orking under the professor, and I supjiose that it Avould he decided by a board Avho Avould take the recommendation of the professor into consideration. 2932. {Chairman.) Will you be kind enough to proceed Avith your statement ? — The third department is that of public lectures. Experimental lectures are given to explain and illustrate the results of chemical in([iiiry, and the princiidcs arrived at. To facilitate reference, this section of chemical study may be calleil that of theoretical chemistry. Noaa% more lecturing of this kind is required than can be done by one lecturer. Formerly with one lecturer only, a A^ery limited portion of the subject could be lectured on, the section of organic chemistry, which forms perhaps the largest section of the subject, being entirely neglected. At jiresent there are three courses of lectures given, each course extending over two terms : one course by the professor of chemistr}', that is myself ; one course by the public analyst acting as an assistant to the j)rofessor on this particular matter ; and a third course by the Aldrieliian Demonstrator of chemistry. I should consider that the arrangement of this last course is unsatisfactory by reason of the demon- strator’s proper duties in the laboratories being trenched upon. Ilis duty should bo to be in the laboratories Avhere the students arc Avorking, and to direct their practical Avork ; and yet his time is not trenched upon sufficiently to allow him to do this lecture Avork efficiently, that is to say, the preparation of the lectures is necessarily more or less impeded, and it is not done so Avell as it might be. I think that some better pi’ovision is required for readers or deputy ])i’ofessors. And if you Avill allow me to postpone for a minute or two my reason for saying deputy rather than independent professors, that is all I have noted doAvn Avith regard to the subject of lectures on theo- retical chemistry. Notwithstanding this help, one large section of chemistry is entirely neglected, the section Avhich may be called for distinction apjdied chemistry or the application of chemistry to the study of natural and artificial phenomena, such as the processes of A-egetation and animal nutrition, to the heating poAver of fuel, to artificial illumination, to ventilation, to Avater supply, to seAvage disposal, and to the more important of the chemical manufactures, treated not technically, in the sense that you cannot educate a man aAvay from factories to conduct factories, but in illustration of chemical princi[des. A man Avhose ideas of chemistry are confined to Avhat can be done in the test tube has a very meagre idea of the im- portance of chemistry, both in reference to natural phenomena and to the conditions of life and commerce and manufacture. I think that at least one additional professor of chemisti-y is required to supply the teach- ing of the sections of chemistry Avhich arc at present untaught. Then I wish to make a few remarks upon the mode of division of the subject. From the oneness of the subject of chemistry, and the intimate association with one another of its different branches, there is a difficxdty in the divisibility of the subject among.st different profes.«ors, except by mutual arrange- ment. In the case of physics it is very easy to give mechanics to one professor and general physics to another, or to divide physics again into electricity. UNIVBliSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 173 optics, and .so fortli ; but in chemistry it is not so. In all largo schools of chemistry the subject which has been referred to as analytical chemistry or ordinary laboratory ])ractice is virtually entrusted to a distinct head, usually indeed, lor reasons indepen- dent of the sidiject, under the superintendence of the professor of theoretical chemistry. I may say that that happens in this evay : coinmoidy one professor takes at first the whole subject, then he has the demonstra- tor to help him, gradually the teaching of the laboratory as it increases is handed over to the demonstrator, and so in this way the demonstrator becomes a distinct professor ; and the separation of the subject would be coini)lete in name as it is in fact but for two considerations : first of all the building and store rooms are all in one, and you can only have one master in one house ; aud, secondly, there is the consideration of the fees. This is the only remunerative portion of the teaching : of course it would not bo I’emunerativc if one had to pay rent and for materials and assistants, but in as much as there is no rent to pay, and the materials are provided by the university grants, and the salaries of the assistants, subject to a remark which I will make presently, are also provided, the fees become an important consideration. My stipend as professor here is 600/. a year ; and my fees, if I took them all into my own })ocket, would amount to at present about 550/. and, if the increase goes on, the fees would of course become a more important consideration than the stipend. I may say with regard to these fees that out of them the salary of the Aldrichian Demonstrator, who is really the head of this department, is made up, for 1 divide the fees with him ; but that is a personal question entirely, and possibly, if the present Aldrichian Demonstrator were to leave, I do not know that 1 might necessarily be disposed to make the same arrangement with the next; I might, or I might not. 2933. By the constitution of the office, do those fees all belong to you ? — Yes, they all Imlong to mo. 2934. But at the same time you are expected to provide the ncce.-^sary assistance, are you not ? — I am expected to see that the work is done. The Aldrichian Demonstrator is paid by the university for this work, but is appointed by me and is subject to my dismissal. 2935. {Mr. Bernard.) How much is he paid by the university ? — He is paid 220/. out of the Aldrichian fund, and he takes one half of the fees in addition. I may say with reference to the other half, as a matter of fact, I put about a third of the whole amount into my own pocket. I also hold a fellowship at Worcester College, which I could not hold but for my professorship, but it is not attached to the pro- fessorship in any way. 2936. {Chairman.) Were you elected to that at the same time that you were made a professor ? — \'es, at the same time. 2937. {Dr. Bcllami/.) But if you resigned the pro- fessoi’.sbip you must give up the fellowship, must you not? — fes. With reference to the subject of analy- tical chemistry, there is no particular reason why it should not remain as it is, and no particular reason why it should not bo an independent professorship. The new laboratories are being built in such a manner that either arrangement could be carried out. 2.938. ( Chairman.) I think you were going to give us some reasons why you would prefer to have another professor ? — In that point of view I meant to say that the subject is one of so much magnitude, taking up so much time, aud the number of students is so large, that it requires some one at the head of it who devotes himself to no other branch of teaching ; of course as nominal head, I am absolute over him, but prac- tically he conducts the teaching, and he is the head of that department. Another division of the subject, the subject of applied chemistry, is again sufficiently distinct to allow of its sejiaration from the chair of theoretical chemistry. 1 find in the German universities that there are from four to seven pro- fessors of chemistry, and usually about half the jiumber are professors of theoretical chemistry, with- out any division into branchej?, arid the other half [)iofessors of a|)plied chemistry, or of some branch of aj)plied chemistry. 2939. {Mr. Bernard.) You are sj)caking now of professors; are all those persons profe.s.sors in tlie strict sense of the term, or are any of them privat- docenten ? — No, the privat-docenten are additions ; they arc not included. 2940. {Chairman.) Is the word professor used in German universities simply as an equivalent to a public or recognised teacher, or has it some higher signification? — There are the professors inordinary, and the professors extraordinary ; the professors extra- ordinary are, I think, simply licensed, so to speak, by the university, and their eertilicates count. 2941. {Mr. Bernard.) Do the privat-docenten in the university find their place in the programme of lectures published V^y the university P — Yes. 2942. Aud also they have a similar license, have they not ? — Yes, they have a license ; for instance, in the University of Berlin I find there are seven pro- fessors of chemistry, and two privat-docenten. 2943. The professors being partly ordinary and partly extraordinary P — Yes; no distinction as to extra- ordinary professors is made in the memorandum that I have here, but there is in fact. Again, in Gottingen, there are six professors and two privat-docenten ; and the only division of the subject taught is into theoretical chemistry, and either applied chemistry generally, or some particular branch of applied chemistry. 2944. {Chairman.) Do you know whether that large number of professors are strictly co-ordinate, or whether there is some subordination or organisation within the [)rofessoriate P — I think there is some .sort of subordination, but it is of a vei'y slight character. 1 2945. {Prnf. Smith.) How do they prepare their scheme of lectures; it is not done, is it, by each man according to his individual will ? — I believe that in a great measure is the case. Where the professor-in- chief, or the one holding the highest position is a popular man, and of high standing, he carries away all the students; but where the j)rofessor who happens to hold the chief position is not a marked man in the place, some younger man carries away the majority of the students. 2946. {Chairman.) Is there competition between them P — There is to some extent competition between them. 2947. Would the profits of teaching go to a popular professor P — Yes ; they are part of his emoluments. 2948. And the students may choose which they please P — Y es. 2949. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you know -whether those professors are appointed to special branches, or whether they are appointed generally in the subject of chemistry P — Those who are appointed to theoretical chemistry are appointed to tbe whole subject of scientific chemistry ; but in the case of those who are appointed in applied chemistry, the branch of applied chemistry is generally defined ; for instance, I observe there are the branches mentioned of pharmaceutical chemistry, legal chemistry, technical chemistry, analytical chemistry, agricultural chemistry, and physiological chemistry. 2950. ( Chairman.) Does technical chemistry mean chemistry as applied to ai ts aud manufactures P — Yes. 2951. {Mr. Bernard.) I see that at the university of Strassburg there is one professor who is teaching in this present semester general and experimental inorganic chemistry, and there is an extraordinary professor who superintends chemical technology and chemical exercises and investigations in the labor- atory ; there is also a privat-docent who bolds what is called a repetitorium of organic chemistry. That appears to be the Strassburg staff. Strassburg, I con- ceive, has not given itself so much to physical science as it has to law and some other branches p — No, it has not. I should say, with regard to the division of y 3 OXFOBD. William Odlijuf, E$j., M.A, 30 Oct. 1877. L 174 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFOKD. William Odling, Esq., M.A. 30 Oct. 1877. chemistry between one, two, or three professors on an equal footing, I do not think there would be a great difficulty in their coming to an arrangement to divide the subject between them ; but when you have more than three, unless there is some con- trolling head, there is a good deal of difficulty as to division between men on a footing of perfect equality. 2952. {Chairma7i.) A difficulty quite indepen- dent of their scientific qualifications ? — Quite so. I have already remarked that the difficulty as to a large number of independent professors of chem- istry is of two kinds. The one is owing to the one- ness of the subject, and that all the divisions would have for the most part to be made by mutual con- cession and arrangement, except those divisions which I have indicated ; and another difficulty is the cost of several establishments each of which is com- plete in itself. As I said before, you can only have one master in one house, and if you have several distinct departments you have to duplicate everything, you have to duplicate the lecture rooms, the lecturer’s assistants, the apparatus, the stores and store-rooms, and the appliances of every kind. 2953. So that as far as organisation and arrange- ment are concerned, probably the system of one professor and a demonstrator or lecturer under him would be better than that of many co-ordinate professors ? — I think that many co-ordinate professors would be a disadvantage, but I think that more than one professor is required. The difficulty as to readers, or deputy professors, is that of getting highly qualified men to retain subordinate positions, which are for the most part not over well paid, especially with the inducement offered to go into manu- factories ; but still there is the fact that men like the subject and like the life, and I do not think there would be any difficulty in getting readers or deputy professors to hold positions of that kind for ten or a dozen years or so, in the hope of something better turning up. 2954. An eminent man of science in chemistry is very apt, is he not, to be wanted elsewhere than in the university ? — Yes. 2955. And the interest of the university is to have as much of him as possible, and to diminish as far as possible the other claims upon his time ? — Yes. 2956. Do you think that if there were more pro- fessors than one the interest of the university would be as well secured, as if its claims were concentrated upon one person ? — I perhaps may give an illustration of my own case. When I was in London, I earned a very fair income as a professional chemist, and I have not ceased to take fees now for work done out of the university. I have been employed by corporations, by the Metropolitan Board of Works, by the Board of Trade, by the Home Office, by the War Office, and by various public and private companies from time to time. 2957. I suppose that private and legal persons may occasionally want your assistance as an expert ? — Yes ; but that kind of work I have in a very great measure abandoned ; but still had it not been for the fact that I have had professional work to do, and have been thereby enabled to take care of myself a little, I should hardly be in a position to live as one has been accustomed to live, merely on the emolu- ments of a professor. The other point I was going to remark upon is tliat by discussing chemical questions that arise in all sorts of ways, especially semi-public inquiries with reference, for instance, to Water Supply and Gas Supply in Parliament, inquiries for the Board of Trade with reference to cargoes. Health of Towns inquiries, &c., all these matters are an education to a professor which reacts very largely upon his class, so that there is an advantage in his being something more than a mere student professor, especially in such a subject. The only other remarks which I wish to make are that the views which I have put forward are stated in substance in the printed letter which I addressed to the Vice-Chancellor, and which is dated April 11th, 1876 ; and that there are in ad- dition to the endowment for the Waynflete professor- ship, which I hold, an endowment for the Lee’s reader- ship in chemistry, which might or might not be made the basis of a separate professorship, and also an endowment for the Aldrichian Demonstratorship, which might or might not be made the basis of a separate professorship. 2958. Your reference to the Lee’s professorship of chemistry naturally suggests a question as to the teaching given in the colleges. Perhaps you will inform us to what extent useful teaching is given in aid of your department in the colleges ? — The Christ Church laboratory is really a rival establishment. 2959. And the Lee’s readership is at Christ Church ? — Yes ; but everywhere else the teaching of chemistry in the colleges is of the most meagre description. 2960. Magdalen College gives some teaching, does it not ? — Magdalen College gives some teaching, but scarcely in chemistry, except when the university laboratory was full ; and the difficulty in teaching chemistry in colleges, except in the case of Christ Church, is that you cannot have experienced teachers in that subject and the material appliances too, except at a cost which the separate colleges could not them- selves afford. There is now building a university laboratory which, as I said, will admit 120 to 150 students ; and in the event of that proving insufficient, I think the best way would be not to establish college laboratories all round, but to establish another such laboratory under another distinct head, and then you would have the advantage of wholesome competition, competition 1 mean in excellence. It would not do to have it said that the men were better taught in one place than in the other. That applies to some extent to the Lee’s readership; but although we are rival establishments there is practically no competition between us, and we do not exercise that healthy influence of competition upon one another that we should otherwise do. Practically, the students of Christ Church would not come to my laboratory if I taught ever so much better than Mr. Harcourt, and other students of the university would not go to Mr. Harcourt if he taught ever so much better than I do. 2961. I suppose by your suggestion that the Lee’s readership should be connected with the establish- ment, one may infer that you think it would be better if there were not that competition in lectures ? — No ; I think that it would be much better if the Lee’s readership were made a university appointment so that there should be a real competition. At present, other students have no inducement to work in the Christ Church laboratory, even if they could be accom- modated. The students of Christ Church who work in that laboratory have their fees paid. I do not mean to say that they would not be paid if they selected the university laboratory instead ; but I suppose they would think it rather an invidious thing to do. Of course it is natural for a Christ Church man to go to the Christ Church laboratory. 2962. (Mr. Bernard.) If there were two university professors, you would then, as you have now, I suppose, have two wholly distinct establishments, having lec- tures in analytical chemistry with the proper plant and appliances, and also lectures in theoretical chemistry ; does the Lee’s reader now lecture in theoretical chem- istry and superintend the instruction in analytical chemistry? — He superintends the instruction in analytical chemistry in Christ Church, and he lectures also, but the Christ Church students come also to the university lectures. Mr. Harcourt sends all his men to the university lectures. 2963. So that you have in fact two establishments for the study of analytical chemistry ? — Yes. 2964. But practically you have one establishment to which pupils come for theoretical chemistry, although they may also receive some lectures in that subject in another place ? — That is so. 2965. {Chairman.) Supposing that the Lee’s reader were made a university professor of analytical chemistry, would the working of his professorship continue to be the same as at present ; that is to say, UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINDTFS OF EVIDENCE. 175 would you provide the laboratory and would the build- ing in Clirist Churcii be used by that professor ? — If be were made an independent professor of analytical chemistry, or if there were an independent professor of analytical chemistry appointed, the best way would probably be to hand over the new buildings at the museum to the new professor. 2966. So that that would practically be putting an end to the Christ Church arrangements ? — I may say that at present there are three teachers of chemistry more or less independent. There is the Waynflete professor, myself ; there is the Lee’s reader, Mr. Harcourt ; and there is the Aldrichian Demonstrator, Mr. Fisher. At present the Aldrichian Demonstrator is at the head of the university analytical department under me it is true ; and if that particular department were transferred to the Lee’s reader there would be opportunity for making another professorship of chemistry on the basis of the Aldrichian foundation, say for applied chemistry ; or the Lee’s readership might be converted into applied chemistry, or the Waynflete professorship might be converted into ap- plied chemistry, or there might be two professors of chemistry allowed to divide the subject between them according to their liking. 2967. {Mr. Bernard.') Your object is to avoid waste of power, waste of appliances, and also waste of revenue. Have you stated, or could you state what would be the arrangement Avhich you yourself would think to be the best ? — The arrangement, which I myself consider to be the best, would be that there should be two professors of theoretical and applied chemistry ; whether one should be appointed to the theoretical and the other to the applied, or whether they should be allowed to arrange it between them- selves is a point upon which I have not fully made up my mind. And, in addition to that, there should be a professor in chief of analytical chemistry, three professors altogether. 2968. {Prof. Smith.) Do you mean that they should be quite independent of one another, or that two of them should be subordinate to the third ? — It is an open question whether the professor of analytical chemistry, should or should not be subordinate ; there is not much to he said either one way or the other. 2969. His duties would not consist of lecturing, would they ? — No. 2970. He would have abundance to do in super- intending the laboratory ? — Yes. He might give an occasional lecture or two ; but practically he would not lecture, he would only give laboratory instruction, and that of an elementary kind as compared with higher work. 2971. {Mr. Bernard.) The reader would have enough to do if he had two laboratories and two sets of laboratory instruction to superintend, which he would have if he had charge both of the university laboratory and of the Christ Church laboratory? — Yes. 2972. {Chairman.) Are all the branches of applied chemistry easily taught in a place like Oxford where there are no manufactures ? — They could not be taught at all in the sense of being taught technically ; but I think the real point is to teach men the prin- ciples involved in chemical processes, which is after all the best practical teaching. 2973. {Mr. Bernard.) May I ask you one ques- tion, which is I’alher a general one, as to the expe- diency of having two professors in a subject rather than a professor and a subordinate ; do you think that in practice, from what you have observed elsewhere, it has this advantage, that it supplies an additional stimulus to the professor, and further that it gives him more satisfaction in his work from the sense that it is divided in a manner more convenient for study and teaching ? — Yes. I think the best of us are better for a little rivalry and competition. 2974. {Chairman.) Does not rivalry and competi- tion depend upon getting fees from the pupils ? — At present there are no fees at all paid for attending lectures. 2975. In places where the stimulus arises from rivalry and competition, as in the German universities, I understand you to say that the profit of the fees does go to the more popular lecturer ? — That is so, I believe. 2976. {Mr. Bernard.) I was not thinking of rivalry and competition as springing from a pecuniary motive, but from the stimulus supplied to a man pursuing a study in which he is interested, by the mere fact that another man whose powers he respects is also pursuing the same subject, and perhaps in a different direction ? — Yes, that was the point which I had in view in my answer. 2977. {Chairman.) Supposing there were an addi- tional professor, would each of them have more time for research and private study than can be obtained by only one ? — I am afraid not. 2978. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you mean that the work of teaching would multiply, or what ? — The work of teaching would multiply. The object of an additional professor is to teach something that is not now taught. 2979. {Prof. Smith.) You are acquainted with the laboratory of the Lee’s reader at Christ Church, are you not ? — ^Yes. 2980. It is only adapted for a small number of students I believe ? — Yes, I am not speaking with confidence, but I think it can accommodate about 12. 2981. So that if the Lee’s readership were changed into a university professorship, it would be necessary to find increased accommodation for it ? — Yes, cer- tainly. 2982. But if that were done the present buildings of Christ Church could be usefully employed for other scientific purposes, could they not ? — I have no doubt they could ; certainly, for example, they could teach elementary physics there. 2983. The Lee’s reader in physics at Christ Church has no sufficient accommodation ? — I think not. 2984. (Dr. Bellamy.) Have you any idea of how many scholarships in natural science are now given away, or have you any means of knowing ? — The number of scholarships and exhibitions I think is about half a dozen a year altogether, I fancy not many more, certainly not more than half a dozen in chemistry. Magdalen College, I think, is only bound to give one for natural science, but, as a matter of fact, it interprets that obligation very liberally, and I suppose on an average it gives about three. I do not know how many science post-masterships there are at Merton College, but I think only one or two a year. There is an occasional scholarship at Balliol College, and occasionally one at some other college. 2985. {Sir M. W. Ridley.) Are there no university scholarships in chemistry ? — No. 2986. Would you think that aid given to natural science generally in that way would be desirable, or not ? — I think as an incitement to boys at school the fact that they can get a scholarship in natural science at Oxford is really an incentive to study science. 2987. {Prof. Smith.) Would you think it desirable to have scholarships in chemistry answering to the senior and junior mathematical scholarships ? — I do not quite know the conditions on which the junior mathematical scholarship is held. 2988. It is a prize for which all the mathematical students of the first two years compete against one another — The mode in which I wordd put it is this, that usually men do not begin here to study chem- istry until they have passed moderations, and then they take their degree in natural science, and some take up chemistry as their subject; and I think that amongst those who take a first class in chemistry some inducement to the pursuit of the subject further in Oxford would be the most beneficial way of re- warding them. 2989. ( Chairman.) And you have suggested what you think would be the best mode of doing that ? — Yes. 2990. {Dr. Bellamy.) The standard for scholar- ships you would think very high or tolerably high in Oxford, I suppose ? — Yes, certainly. Y 4 OXFORD. William Odling, Esq. M.A. 30 Oct. 187? 17G UNIVf:KSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. 2991. {Mr. Beimard.) Could a college establish at “ — a comparatively small cost a laboratory for rndi- mentary instruction in chemistry ? — Yes, they could ^‘m’a ’ establish it at a comparatively small cost. 2992. Do you know the Magdalen College chemic.al 30 Oct. 1877. laboratory? — Yes, but 1 believi; th.at the Magdalen chemical laboratory, as a matter of fact, is chiefly used DOW for biological purposes. 2993. {Prof. Soiit/i.) Have you formed an opinion on the (luestion whether it would be advisable that the university should exact a certain elementary know- ledge of chemistry from every candidate for a degree ? — IMy own opinion is that it would be a highly advantageous thing if every one taking .a degree had to show a certain minimum knowledge of natural science. I would not say of chenustry espe- cially. The only difficulty I see is that it is more diffi- cult to test that kind of minimum knowledge in any such subject as chemistry, tlian it is in such a sub- ject say as mathematics. For instance, if a man brings up nothing but algebra as far as sim[)le equa- tions, it is not a great deal, but you have the means of ascertaining wliether he knows it thoroughly so far as it goes; but it is not so with chemistry. I am speaking of my experience as an examiner in the University of London, where every student is required to bring up chemistry. If you make the standard high, of course it is too much to require of every man, and if you make it low it is very difficult to ascertain whether it is genuine knowledge or whether it is got up out of a book of questions and answers. 2994. At the University of London there is no practical examination, is there ? — Not at matricula- tion. 2995. Have you ev^er examined in the local examinations of the University of Oxford? — No. 2996. There it is the case, is it not, that even the junior candidates have a certain amount of practical work ? — I do not know one w.ay or the other. 2997. {C/iairtuan.) Are there any elementary manuals of chemistry vt'hich can be easily got up, and from which a knowledge really useful can be obtained ? — Y’’es, from which areally useful knowledge can be obtained ; but from which .also a knowledge really useless m.ay be obtained. 2998. (il/r. Bernard.) And you would not be very well able to ascertain whether the knowledge pro- duced before you was of the useful kind or the useless kind ? — Not where you have to fix a low minimum of knowledge, and to examine a large number of men. 2999. {Prof. Smith.) If you were .allowed a prac- tical examination, would you still adhere to that opinion? — I think then it could be better done. 3000. {Dr. Bellamy.) 'I'lmt would involve much labour in getting up ?— Yes. There .are about 700 men who take degrees hero in the ye.ar. 3001. {j\[r. Bernard.) You were going to add something to your answer just now to Professor Smith. You wore asked whether if you had power to test it by practical work you could then discriminate between uselul and useless knowledge, and you said tiiat you could, and 1 think yon were going to add something to th.at ?— The m.aterial appliances would have to be v(;iy considerable in order to examine 700 men upon any practical subject. 3002. {Chairman.) Is it clear th.at you are not con- templating more than it would be useful to require as a condition for taking a degree ; would not such an elementary knowledge as could be obtained from books be more reasonably required fi'om all the candi- dates than the practical knowledge that could be obtained in rhe laboratory ?— No donbt, but a know- ledge of chemistry which consists merely of a know- ledge of results that have been ascertained, irrc.spec- tive of the evidence est.ablishing them, and the methods by which they are established, must neces- sarily be more or less cram work. 3003. But still does not that stand upon a level with much of the other knowledge which it is practi- cally useful to a man to possess : .although he m.ay not be a chemist in any sense, yet he may know some- thing about ehemistiy as a science ? — As a matter of useful knowledge, I should say, yes. The university here requires a minimum of mathematics, and that minimum m.ay be either algebra up to simple equa- tions or two books of geometry. Now if a man only brings up one book of geometry jmu can ascertain whether he knows it or whether he does not ; but it is not so easy to limit and test a minimum of chem- istry, though I think it might be done. 3004. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you find any young 7 uen coming up before you in the laboratory who show any traces of having been usefully aud carefully prepared at school ? — Yes, some eert.ainly. 3005. At the gre.at schools ? — Lately we h.ave had some men from Eton, but it is only lately. We h.avm had many more from Rugby. I do not call to mind any from Harrow ; from Marlborough we have h.ad some good men ; from Clifton in.any, and also from the Manchester Grammar School. 3006. Those have all elementary laboratory work, have they not ? — Yes. The witness withdrew. Moniei Williams, Eaq., M.A, Monier Williams, Esq., M.A., Hon. D.C.L. (Boden Professor of Sanskrit), ex.amined. 3007. {Chairman.) Is there .any information which you can give to the Commission as to the wants of the university in the Indian departments? — ^-The requirements of this university for the lietter pro- motion of Indian aud Oriental studies generally, are augmented by the changed circumstances of this country in regard to India and the E.ast ; I mean by the increasing intercourse and more rapid communica- tion between Engl.and aud her eastern possessions, by the increasing interdependence and intertwining of interests and mutual sympathies, and by the increasing tendency to govern India from the Houses of Parlia- ment, whose members are generally educated at the tmiversities of Oxford and Cambridge. A writer in the “ Pall Mall Gazette ” gives statistics of those who are educated at Oxford and Cambridge, aud the majority is proved to bo of those who are educated at Oxford. These changed circumstances deepen our responsiljilities, and m.ake it incumbent upon ns to promote a better knowledge of India and the E.ast, a greater respect for eastern peoples, and a more correct estimate of their mind, character, and condi- tion. I propose to distribute our requirements in regard to Oriental studies under four heads: — (1.) Formal university recognition. (2.) Incrc.ase of stafl’ for teaching and research. (3.) Eucour.agement of learners. (4.) M.aterial centralisation with a view to combined and systematic action. As to the first of these heads ; the first thing wanted is that Orient.al subjects should be formally recognised by the univer- sity as a distinct department of study, as a channel for taking a degree, for gaining honours, and for obtaining future employment in honourable, useful, and lucrative careers. We blame Asiatic scholars for saying that all knowledge is contained in Asiatic writings, and that they do not want to know any- thing beyond ; but we Europeans do just the s.ame with regard to European literature. At present Oriental studies .are not only thrust into a corner, they .are positively discouraged, aud almost under a ban. The treatment they receive is illustrated by their position in the “University Gazette.” There they ai’e relegated to a sort of general limbo of langu.ages, below every other subject. Sanskrit, the elder sister of Greek and Latin, the classical language of two hundred millions of our fellow subjects, takes rank in the same category with Anglo-Saxon, Welsh, Spanish, and Italian, and is treated as if it possessed no literature. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 177 Anihic, llie isistcr of Hebrew and Araimiic, tlic classical language of I'ortj-one millions of our lellow yiibjeets, has a similar position assigned to it. 3008. Sanskrit and Arabic are very dillercnt, are they not; in this respect, that Arabic is a spoken language of the present day ? — True, it is a spoken language of the present day, but Sanskrit is also spoken by learned num in Inditt, as 1 have reason to know, by having travelled recently all over India. 3009. JJy both Hindoos and Mahommedans ? — No, not by Mahommedans, but by Hiudoos ; the learned men of the two hundred millions of Hindoos speak Sanskrit. 3010. What proportion of the population would come under your idea of learned men. It would be a A'cry small one, would it not ? — Very small. 3011. And, of course, they are highly educated men ? — Yes ; Sanskrit is spoken ])retty much in the same Wily as Latin was spoken in Europe. 3012. Do you mean that the two cases are parallel, that is to say, that iis many peoiile comparatively would understand and spt'ak Sanskrit in India as speak Latin in Europe? — More in India, I thiidc. 3013. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you mean thiit they act uiilly do speak it or that they could speak it if they tried ? — They actually do. 3014. Is it the medium of communication between leiirned Hindoos ? — Y^es, between learned Hindoos. I found it everywhere where I was travelling in India. In nearly every village there was somebody or other who could speak Sanskrit, and as I was not familiar with the vernacular of the particular district through which I travelled, I always found somebody that could understand Sanskrit. 3015. {Prof. Sniilh.) Was it of actual use to you as a medium of conversation ? — Quite so. 3016. (d/r. Bernard.) In the same way as Latin was formerly ? — More so. 3017. {Chairtnan.) Is that the class from which the Pundits are taken ? — Pundits are men who under- stand Sanskrit. In nearly every village there is a Pundit. 3018. Would a Pundit generally be able to speak Sanskrit ? — Generally. There is a great fallacy exist- ing about that. It is supposed that Sanskrit is a dead language ; it is by no means dead, it is spoken every- where in India. I have said that Oriental studies are positively discouraged in this university. I will give an instance of what I mean. I once ventured to en- courage an undergraduate, a scholar of his college, who had a peculiar aptitude for Eastern languages, to apply himself to the study of Sanskrit and its literature, lie did so and gained the Iloden scholarship. This made it obligatory on him to continue his Sanskrit studies, but he soon lost favour Avith (ho tutors of his college, and when he came out Ioav in the class list incurred much obloquy. He then complained to me that I had ruined his prospects, and maintained that I was bound to provide some career for him in which his Oriental acipiirements would be turned to account. But failure in the class list aavus an insur- mountable obstacle. Cambridge, by the establishment of a Semitic and Indian languages tripos, has done more tiian we have to encourage Eastern studies, but has not done enough to attract Orienlal students in the ways I am about to recommend. 3019. Before going to the next head would you just tell us whether that has been established long enough at Cambridge to produce any results ? — Y^es, I think so. I think it has been established for the last five or six years. 3020. Has the number of students who have graduated in it been at all considerable ?■ — I believe no students have graduated ; but I am about to tell you why I think it has failed. My second head is, “ In- crease of staff for teaching and for research.” I think, of course, that new chairs ought to be founded and old ones improved. The following scheme represents my idea of the wants of the university in this respect under five heads. The first head relates fo the Indo- Ayran, Iranian, Indo-Turanian, and North Turanian Q G223. languages, five chairs. The first chair is that of .Sanskrit (as at present, with the jiower of ajipointing a teacher). The second is a chair of Pfili and Prakrit jihilology (including modern Indo-Aryan ver- naculars and the languages of Ceylon), with certainly one teachership of Hindustani (as at present) and perhaps two others, one of|Beugali and one of Marathi, The third is a chair of what I call Iranian philology, that is to say, Zend, ancient Achomienian or the dialect of the Cuneiform inscriptions, Pahlavi, Parsi or Pazand, and Modern Persian. All those are in- cluded under Iranian. The fourth is a chair of Dritvidian and Jndo-Turaiiian philology (Tamil and Telugu ranking first). The languages of Avhat are called the Kolarian tribes, that is the aboriginal tribes, ought to come under the chair of Dravidian and Indo-Tur.anian philology. In the fifth chair, Avhich I call the chair of North 'Turanian philology, Avould be included 'Turkish, Mongolian, and 'Tatar’ic. We have, as everyone knotvs, a Chinese professor. I think in time we should have to associate with either the North 'Turanian or the Chinese professor some native teaching in other languages such as 'Tibetan, Burmese, .Siamese, and Malay. 3021. Would you add to those Japanese? — Y'es. Japanese should be included too, 1 ihiidv. 'Then the second head is the .Semitic languages, that is to say, the languages of Syria, Assyria, and Arabia. I think under this head we ought to have four chairs, First, a chair of Biblical Hebrew, which Ave liaA C at present connected AA'ith the canonry of Christ Church. .Secondly, a chair of the IlebrcAV language and litera- ture, Avhich Avould inelude the IlebreAV of the Talmud, that Avould be purely a linguistic chair. 'Then the third chair Avould be a chair of Assyrian. 'The Assyrian language is becoming a very important subject at present, and one Avhich ought to be represented in this university. 'The fourth is a chair of Arabic and Aramaic. Under Aramaic would be included Western Aramaic-Syriac, and Eastern Ara- maic-Chaldee, and perhaps hereafter Ethio[)ic. It seems to me that the Laudian and Lord Almoner jirofessoi’ships might be merged in this last chair if it Avas properly endowed, that is in the chair of Arabic and Aramaic. 'Thirdly, there are the Egyptian languages, one chair Avould be quite enough for them, that is to say, a chair of Egyptian jihilology, Avhich Avould include ancient Egyptian and Coptic. 3022. {l^rof. Smith.) Including the antiquities of Egypt generally ? — Y'es. I am told that some appli- cation is to be made to the Commissioners by the Royal Asiatic Society to establish two chairs, and there seems to be some idea thsit one university might undertake the Assyrian and the other the Egyptian. I think Ave ought to have both Assyrian and Egy])tian here. 'Then the fourth head is a reader- ship in Indian history and geography ; and the lifth head is a readership on Indian laAv and political economy. 3023. {Chairman.) Before passing to those reader- ships Avhich seem rather to belong to a different category, is your object in the scheme Avhich you have sketched out to represent those branches of knoAvledge upon the jirinciple of science or research, or is it your object to introduce them into the .system of educa- tion in the iini\-ersity ? — I think they should be introduced here both for education and also for research. 3024. Do you think that if we had those chairs you Avould have many students for them — I think tlmt is a matter of little inqtortance ; I think Avhether there are pupils or no pupils avc ought to lurcc the chairs. 3025. 'Then it Avould be only for the rejiresentation of them as branches of knoAvledge ? — I think as representing branches of knOAvledge avc ought to have them. 3026. {Prof. Smith.) Surely there is a great diffe- rence between the different subjects Avhich you have enumerated. Some of them arc such that you might ex])ect a certain number of students of them, Avhereas in the case of others there would be very few, if any ? Z OXFORD. Monier Williams, Esq., M.A. .30 Oct. 1877. 178 UNIVEKSITY OF OXFOKD COJM5IISSIOK : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, OXFORD. Monier Williams, Esq., M.A. 30 Oct. 1877. — Very ow indeed. I do not exjiect that we should have many Egyj)tian or many Assyrian or Dravidian students. 3027. Those three eliairs at any rate would, in respect of the number of students, stand in a position somewhat different from that of others ? — Possibly. 3028. {Chairman.) Probably not many even in the North Turanian, although that includes the Turkish language ?— I am coming to that ; 1 think it is important that we sliould have somebody here re- presenting Turkish and other Turanian languages for the diplomatic service. I have had a letter from Lord Derby a})proving the Indian Institute, and I have the papers here about the emi)loyment of inter- preters. The age is fixed to enable those who are to act as interpreters or dragomans to have taken their degree.s. 3028a. I only wish to understand whether your main object was the representation of those branches of knowledge, or was education ? — 1 think both for education and research. I hardly know which to place first. Teaching and research ought to go together. 3029. May I ask }'ou what chance there is of get- ting students to come with that particular view ? — I think we shall in Oxford attract students of all kinds, diplomatic, educational, missionary, and other Oriental students by providing them witli I'acilities. 3030. Will you go on to your next head, namely the encouragemeiu, of learners ? — With regard to the third head, the encouragement of learners, it seems to me that every Oriental chair should have some scholarshij) or scholarships attached to it for I fear that few take up the stiuiy of Oriental subjects here out of mere love for them. It seems to me that there is a very commercial spirit here, and that unless subjects will pay in the examinations the tinder- graduates do not take them ii}). First, I think that there ought to be a scholarshij) or scholarships attached to each professorship ; and then that certain colleges should set apart fellowships for distinguished Oriental students, and thirdly that every Oriental pro- fessor should be a member of the governing body of a college (either as actual or honorary fellow) that he may excite an interest in Indian •studii^s among the junior members of the college, and jilead the claims of those studies for participation in the sui'plus revenues of the college. I have already said that there ought to be a school for taking degrees. The fourth head is that of material centrali.sation with a view to com- bined and systematic action. It seems to me that not only is too little done in this country for promoting a knowledge of India, but our efforts are too scattered, spasmodic, and unsystematic. England is rapidly losing its proper position as the true centre and focus of East- ern studies. Germany, France, and Russia are taking, its place. Unless we combine and concentrate our efforts we shall soon have to go to these countries for all our Oriental pi'ofessors, librarians, secretaries, cata- logues of manuscripts, &c. Germany has chairs of all the subjects I have named in most of her univer- sities. France has her chairs of Assyrian, Egyptian, Semitic, &c., and has her “ J£cole Speciale des Langues Orientales vivantes,’" provided with ]>rofessors and native readers and teachers in Ai-abic, Persian, Hin- dustani, Armenian, Turkish, Mongolian, Tatar, Chinese, Japanese, Anamese, Malay, Slavonic, Modern Greek, &c. 3031. May I ask before you pass from that, what the results as to the students are ? — They have not many students certainly, but still there are some. 3032. {Prof. Smith.) But they have a great School of Oriental Philology in France, have they not ?— Yes ; and if anybody wants to know either Mongolian or Tatar, Japanese, Anamese, Malay, &c., he must go to France, he cannot get instruction here. 3033. It is one of the few branches of learning, is it not, in which in recent times the French have held their own as iigainst the Germans i — Yes, certainly. Russia also has her special school tor her dragomans in Ar:d)ic, Persian, Turkish, ami Modern Greek, and chairs of all the chief Asiatic languages. She well knows the importance of having good interpreters. Holland, too, has her school at Leyden, &c., for Malay Javiinese, and idl the languages required for her eastern pos- sessions. 3034. {Chairman.) I suppose in England, in the time of the comjmuy, there wtis at Haileybury a school perhaps more limited as to those languages, but still a school of the same character, was there not ? — Certainly. There is not now in England a single person who can read or understand Tibetan, although one teacher may be found in Germany, one in Paris, and about ten in Russia ; and although the language of Tibet is spoken by numbers of our Indian subjects, that is to say in Nepaul, in Bootan, and in Sikkim. 3035. Do you reckon Nepaul as ours ? — It is quite true that Nepaul does not belong to us, but it acknow- ledges our supremacy, I think, though I do not know whether it does so formally. But at any rate in Bootan, Sikkim, and Assam we have a number of subjects who speak the language of Tibet, and also there are millions inhabiting a very important position between the Russian, Chinese, and English empires who speak Tibetan. I believe 1 am correct in saying that there is not a single person in England who can either read or write the language of Tibet. I have a letter here from a friend of mine — a distinguished Indian civilian — Avho wanted to get a translation into the Tibetan language, and he could not find a single person in England ; he was obliged to send it to Nepaul to get a translation. He might, I su|)pose, have got one in Russia, but he preferred to .send it direct to Nepaul. 3036. I presume that in the Indian Civil Service there would be some, would there not ? — No. 1 do not think there is anybody. Those are the grounds on which I have advocated the founding of a central institute in this university, which I have proposed hitherto to call an Indian Institute, which shall he a centre of union, intercourse, iiupiiry, and instruction for all engaged in Indian and Oriental studies ; and I may mention that I have already promises of 5,000/. towards the erection of a building. With regard t.o the material eipiipment of this building I have already stated in print that it ought to have one large lecture room, class rooms, a library, reading room, and museuni. I tliink that the library ought to contain all our books on India with our Sanskrit manuscripts, which at present are put out of the way in the Bodleian, and nobody sees them. I think that our reading room should be well supplied Avith magazines, newspapers, and periodicals from India, and I think that our museum ought to have a classified selection of objects which Dr. Forbes Watson, Avith the consent of the India Office, Avould provide — objects illustra- tive of the ethnology, archajology, zoology, botany, mineralogy and geology of India, and also of its religious, social, and industrial life. And I think this should be open, not only to nieml)ers of the university, but even to those who may study at Oxford Avithout belonging to the uniA^ersity at all, inasmuch as they might be sent here Avithout intending to j>ass examina- tions or take degrees. No doubt many Avould be sent here, not only missionaries, but tho.se who are i>re- paring for the diplomatic service, for the educational service, and perhaps even for the military ser\nce, for merchants, and for engineering and other public Avorks. I do not see Avhy they should be necessarily members of the university or intending to pass the examinations. If Ave had an Indian Institute, I am ceitain many Avould be sent here. We have had many Indians sent to this university ; we haA-e at present tAvo or three here ; and 1 have reason to know that some of those men have fallen into difficulties, simply because there is no one here avIio undei’stands the Indian character. 3037. Do you mean pecuniary difticultie.-, ? — Yes : if there. Avere an Indian Institute hei’c, I think that t he eui'ator or the head ol' that institulion should be reiptired to Avatch oA'er those young men Avho (!ome from India ; and I think there ought to be certain uNiVKiisirr OP o'Cj’o.i d commission: — minutes of evidence. 179 lodging-houses connected with such an institution, with special regidations and sumptuary laws. One case I coidd mention of one who is now a member of this university who lias fallen into dilHcultios, simply because nobody here has been charged with the duty of looking after his expenses. Jle came here without understanding anything of our customs ; lie has been paying a great de,al for his board, lodging, dress, books, and other necessaries. I believe he is a deserving young man. but I think it is simply from want of knowledge tliat lie has gone wrong. I have been instrumental in re.scuing liim, through the kind- ness of Sir Salar .Tung at Hyderabad, who has allowed him a certain .stipend as a scholar. 1 think that the head of such an Institute would of course be charged with the duty of watching over these young men. 3038. Are the young men who come here Mahome- tans or Hindoos, or both ? — They have hitherto been chiefly Hindoos, because the Mahometans are much more bigoted than Hindoos. 3039. I suppo.se they are compelled to break their caste when they do come here '{ — Yes, but they are generally children of advanced Hindoos wlio have no longer maintained their caste. I think that others will come here in considerable numbers. 3040. You spoke of a considerable number having come ; are you able to tell us the number within any given period of years } — Perhaps I exaggerated ; a certain number have come here. 3041. Are you able to give us an idea of the number that have come here within the last 10 ymars, for example ? — No, I think there are generally two or three Hindoos here. I think a considerable number may come hereafter. I have a letter here from a distinguished Hindoo to show that if wo do make arrangements for looking after young Indians, numbers are likely to come here. 3042. Are the numbers .so considerable to whom caste has ceased to be a matter of consequence ? — Yes, certainly, there are numbers in the chief towns, Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay, but not in the country, of course. Taking those great towns I infer, from letters which I have here, and which I could read if there were time to do so, that there are many picked men in Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay, who are capable of the highest European culture, and also who have the means, which is a very important matter, of course. Perhaps only a certain number have the money, but there are some who are both capable of the higher form of. culture' and who also have the money, and thirdly who have the health and wdio would stand our climate ; those are the three important requisites. I .say that in Calcutta, Bombay, and Madras, tin? number is increasing, ami if we could, by such an institution as I propose, under- take to watch over them, numbers, I think, will come here. 3043. Have those that vou spoke of been as a rule matriculated students belonging to the colleges ? — Yes, or else unattached students. I could mention one or two members of Balliol and one or two unattached students ; there are always some here. Their number is very small now, but I anticipate that a much larger number will come hereafter. 3044. {Mr. Bernard.) Are there not some here who have not matriculated at all ? — I do not think so. I think they are either unattached students or attached to colleges. 3045. {Chairman.) Have they always resided in lodgings in the town and not in College ? — Some members of Balliol have, I think, resided in the college ; for instauQC, one of those Hindoos succeeded in obtaining my Boden scholarship ; his name was De. I am not sure, however, whether he had rooms in Balliol, or whetlier he had lodgings. There was a good man resident in Oriel whose name was Pundit. 3046. {Sir M. IV. Ridley.) Have you had any Ja- ]>anese ? — There have been some Japanese too. 3047. {Chairmam.) Are you able to tell us whether they go into the same studies with the generality of Oxford students, or whether there are any special linos of study to which they practically confine them- selves ? — I think that we ought to have an Indian scliool for special Indian subjects here. 3048. I (juite umUu-stand what you think that we ought to have, biit do they come here in the present state of things to learn Sanskrit ? — Of course they do not come here to learn Sanskrit ; they are supposed to have some knowledge of that before they come, and of their own languages, but it is chiefly of course the notion, that by coming here and obtaining degrees they will be b(dter qualified, either as Vakeels, that is to say, native pleaders, or in medicine, and they return to India and practise, either as barristers or doctors. 3019. {Prof. Smith.) In this university they have chiefly .studied law and political economy and some of the other so-called modem subjects ? — Yes, and medicine is one of the subjects they wish to study. 3050. {Chairman.) Is the university the place that they would go to for the purpose of studying medi- cine ? — Perhaps they would prefer to be in London, and many no doubt are in London, but I think we ought to try and attract them here, because I think that in London they are cast adrift in a great metropolis with nobody to look after them ; they get into great difficulties tjiere ; they get into expensive society, they get into debt, and the complaint is that they go back to India mucli wor.se than they were when they arrived here. They seem to drop all the best parts of their own characters, and to adopt the worst part of our characters. I have here a letter from Keshub Chunder Sen complaining of it. I think if tliey came to this university, wliere there would not be the rsame snares as there arc* in London, they might easily go up to London and attend other lectures, and go to the hospitals. I think it ought to be our object to attract them to this university. 3051. With regard to the large circle of Indian, or Oriental languages, which you recommend, if they were well represented in the university, do you think that that class of students would be attracted to Oxford ? — I tliink they would be attracted to this place rather than to London. 3052. I mean would they be induced to come to Oxford for the sake of attending lectures in those different subjects of Oriental philology which you have mentioned ? — Not entirely ; but I think that if scholarships were attached to some of tho.se subjects they might gain those scholarships. That would be a great assistance to them, and then they would be able to go to London to supplement our lectures in law and in medicine, and to the hospitals. Our object ought to be to attract as many as we can to this university, where they would be under control and discipline more than they are in London. 3053. {Sir M. JV. Ridley. ) Have you considered your -scheme also in relation to the possible requirements of the candidates for the Indian Civil Service being brought more to Oxford than to London ? — Certainly. My idea is that we ought to collect them in one spot, that they may know each other and be known. We cannot compel them to come, but we ouglit to attract tliem here and do .all we can to bring them all to one place. 3054. As I understiind your scheme, which has been laid before us, it has not been drav,m out with a view to our own Civil Service candidates, but prin- cipally with the view to Indians coming over here ? — Th.at is not the principal object ; th.at is only one object. To bring Indians here is not the princij).al object. 3055. {Mr. Bernard.) You look to your institute as likely to render service to Indians coming here, rather than with reference to ymir scheme of public teacliers ? — Yes, but the teachers ought certainly to be connected with it. I think if we had an institution here for promoting a knowledge of India, the duty of the head, or the curat or, or the warden, whatever he might be, would be to look afbu' young Indians. 3056. With resj) 0 ct to the scholarsidps, if vou gave tliem to the Indians who come here, they would OXFORD. Monier Williams, Esq., M.A. 30 Oct. 1877. Z 2 ISO UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION !— MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD, loso their efficacy as incentives to the study of those : langnagcs, and be held chielly by persons to whom Williams languages were known as their vernacular ? — Esq M A 1 think that we ought to have scholarships, as wo have already in connexion with Sanskrit and Chinese, 30 Oct. 1877. open to all competitors. 30.57. {Dr. Bc/Iaj>ii/.) But it would ccaise to be much inducement to an Englishman to learn Sanskrit if he were sure to find a sufficient number of natives as competitors, would it not ? — I think the English- men would have a better chance of success than the natives, although they come here fancying they know a great deal, because the Englishmen are better trained and much more accurate. There have been native candidates here for my scholarship, but Englishmen have generally beaten them ; there has been one case of a native gaining the scholarship. 3058. (Mr. Bernard.) Consequently the natives would not get scholarships often ? — We have had oidy one example. iMr. De succeeded in getting the Sanskrit scholarship. I think that Englishmen generally have a better chance, being better trained. 3059. (Chairman.) As a rule, every man studies a foreign language more scientitically, docs he not, than his own ? — Yes, I think so, certainly. 3060. And the examinations would take a scientific turn ? — Y'^es. There is a native even now studying for the next Sanskrit scholarship, and he thinks he has a better chance than an Englishman. 3061. Have yon anything further to suggest to the Commissioners ? — The only thing that I liave further to suggest is a question about whether this institution whicli I have proposed should be called an Oriental institute or an Indian institute. I am in favour of its being called an Indian institute, because I think that of all the eastern countries India has the first claim upon us. It seems to me that the title “ Indian Institute ” is a sign of our increased interest in the welfare of our own Indian enq)ire ; and our first duty is towards it. My second reason for preferring this title is that pecuniary aid has already been oljtained in India through printed circulars asking for assist- ance towards an Indian institute and not an Oriental institute. My third reason is that I have still hopes of obtaining further subscri|)tions, and my success in obtaining those subscriptions may depend upon onr connecting this building directly with India. The fourth is, th.at I think if we adopted the title of Orient.al institute, although it is much more -com- prehensive no doubt, and so far better, it would require a building at least twice the size of what 1 recommend. 3062. 'Would not the economical and disciplinary reasons which make you think an institute desirable for the Indians apply as much to the other half of the students as to the Indians ? — Yes. 3063. If the principle is good, yon ought to make it .available to .all Oriental students ? — Quite so, 1 do not know whether it would be possible to say Indian .and Oriental Institute, whether it would be logic.al or not. 3064. Y^ou might call it Indian and take in all Orientals ? — Quite so. 3065. (Prof. Smith.) If yon succeed in obtaining all the professorships of which you have spoken, there ought to be one of the North Turanian langu.ages ? ^Yes, Turkish at the present moment is very im- portant. 3066. And also a professorship of the Semitic languages. And then, whatever name yon might give to Bie Institution, you would wish to bring all these chairs into connexion with one another ? — Yes, quite so. The only thing I am afraid of is that it would reipiirc .a much larger building. 3067. (Chairman.) The bunding would at all events be limited by some calculation of the pi'obable numbers; have von made .any such calculation? — No, I hiive not made any calculation of the probable numbers, but 1 am quite certain that it we did oui best to attract Oriental students, not merely those who are going in for a degree, but, for instance, missionary students, and students who .are prejiared for an educational career, and students who are pre- paring for the diplomatic servici;, we shall have plentyn 3068. But you would not snrelv want an instilute for those two classes, Englishmen intending to la' missionaries or intending to enter the diplomatic service ? — 1 think that the institution shoukl attract all those stnilents, 3069. 1 mean that you would not want local accommodation for them ? — No, not local accommoda- tion, certainly not. 3070. {Mr. Bernard.) But you would have it :is a means of pubfu; information ? — Yes, as means of public information. 3071. {Prof. Smith.) Surely the building neeil not be so very large. You do not propose, do yon, tluit each of those nine professorships which you enumerated should have a separate lecture i-oom ? — Certainly not. I think there ought to be a large lecture room, and two or three class rooms. But still I have spoken of a library yon will understand, and also a museum. MTien we c.ame to use the lecture rooms it would lx; necessary to have a library and museum near them. 3072. You h.ave not much hope of getting ti.e Bodleian m.anuseripts placed in the Indian or Oriental institute, have you ?— I h.ave groat hopes of it. 1 think that they ought to be placed there. 3073. {Chfdrman.) Would it not be more advan- tageous when you were making a building for a museum of classical archaeology to have another department in the same building for an Indi.an IMuseum. Is it not better to collect, as far .as may be, the museums together instead of scattering them about the university ? — We must not forget th.oit India is an immense continent ill itself. Wc must not forget that the population of Asia is greater than the po[mlation of Europe, Africa, and America together. I think the archeology of India is so enormous that if we were to combine it with that of other countries there wouhl not be room for .all. We w.ant a separate building for India distinct from other countries. 3074. ( Mr. Bernard.) rcrha[)S yon think that you would want also lecture rooms and that it would be; convenient to have the lecture rooms near your museum ? — Yes, certainly. I think that all throe ought to be in one' building illustrating each other. The person who lectures about any Indian subject ought to have a library near him and a museum near him, all in one building. 3075. {Prof. Smith.) The museum, according to your conception of it, need not be very great ?— No, not very great; but still I think that we ought to have room to expand. 3076. But you might begin upon a moder.ate scale ? Yes. When yon consider the enormous connlry India is, I think realty that to combine it with any other country in the world would not be satisfactory. 3077. If you had the site, what do you suppose would be the cost of a building which would do to beo-in with ?— I think we might, as a commencement, erect a building for about what I have already st.ated in my printed circular, for about 8,000/. 3078. (d/r. Bernard.) Would that comprise any lecture rooms as well as .a museum ? — Yes, lecture rooms, museum, library, and also a reailing room to serve as a sort of club ; for all those who are con- nected with India ought of course to be members of the institute. 3079. Y'ou would not contemplate much architec- tural ornament, I suppose, to be secured for that sum? — No. We might begin with a good solid building for 8,000/. 1 think. Besides that we ought to have an endowment, and we must have money enough to p.ay for a keeper. 3080. I daresay you feel that the scheme which you have i)laced before us is so complete and so extensive that you can only hope to see it lealiscd in a somewhat remote future ; have you considered what you would think desirable to make a beginning? UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 181 Tliere iiro l)oUi tlie wants of tlio Tiuli.an service and the wiint.s of Oriental science; first with a view to tlie Indian s(>rvice, what do you thiidc is practtically (lesiral)le for tin; university to do more than it does now? — We liave of course just now before us a certain proposition. We ouglit to have a Telugu and a Tatnil teacher, wlucli is now ])ropo.sed. d081. We have now a teacher in Hindustani ? — Yes, we have a Hindustani teacher, but we propose that Persian should be joined with it. At pre.scnt it is only voluntary. He is willing to teach Persian. 3082. Would that include old Persian or Zend ? — Certainly not. He would undertake Persian, but he does not understand Zend or Pahlavi, or other Iranian languages. 3083. We Avant therefore a teacher of Telugu and Tamil, Avhich are languages of Southern India ? — Yes, 'J'elugu and Tamil, d'here are four great languages of Southern India, but those ai’cthe principal. There are Kanarese and Malayalam, but a teacher of Telugu ought to understand Kanarese, becau.se it is a closely cognate language. 3084. Tliere is not much want, is there, for Kanarese ? — Kanarese is spoken by about nine mil- lions of people. 3085. I mean amongst our candidates ? — I think not. Telugu and Tamil are the principal South Indian languages. I have mentioned these inconne.xion Avith the chair of Dravidian languages, and Avhat I call the Indo-Turanian languages. There are also the Clouds and aboriginal tribes in Chota-Nagpore, called Kola- rian. 'fhe chair Avould embrace ail those languages. 3086. Do you think it immediately desirable for candidates for the Indian service to hiive any ad- ditional teaching beside the teaching of Telugu and Tamil ? — No, I think not immediately. I think those Avould be sufficient for our immediate needs. 3087. Would that complete Avhat you think Avould be immediately desirable for the Indian service? — Yes, immediately desii-able. 3088. As to the other matter, the cultivation of the science of Oi'icmtal philology, if you had the power to make a modest beginning of the school of Oriental philology, Avhat addition Avould you suggest ? — We have Sanskrit and Arabic already. I think Ave ought to have Avhat I have called a chair of Pali and Prakrit philology, certainly. 3089. {Prof. Smith.) You Avould give it precedence over the chair of the old and new Persian : — I think so, because Pali and Piakrit have reference to the spoken vernaculars of India, and surely those are more important than Persian. 3090. {Chairman.) I suppose that Persian is a language in universal use among educated persons in India, is it not, amongst the Mahometans generally ? — No ; I think the great use of Persian is that Persian is an element of Hindustani. It is also one of the classical languages of the Mahometans, but I do not think it is spoken by the great majority of Mahometans in India ; oidy by the educated. 3091/ It is constantly Avritteu by them in documents of various kinds? — It used to be the language of our courts, but it is no longer so. 3092. Is it not very nearly necessaiy for those Avho administer justice in our courts in India to under- stand Persian ? — I think not because Persian is no longer the language of our courts. Educated Maho- metiins speak to Europeans in Urdu. 3093. Are not many doctimeuts Avhich they have to consider in the evidence Avhich is tendered to them in the Persian language ? — Yes, there may be some, but I think during the last 30 years, I forget lixaclly for how long, Persian has ceiised to be th(! languagt! used in onr courts. 3094. {Prof. Smith.) You are uAvare that !in 0 ])inion opposed to jour own has been expressed, and that a chair of I’ersian and Zend has been rejtre- .sented as the lirst addition AA'hich ought to bo made to our Oriental chairs ? — You observe that Pali and Prakrit are clo>ely connected Avith Sanskrit. The chair of Pali and Prakidt might be represented as simply a sub-chair of Sanskrit. Surely Sanskrit must be more inifiortant than Persian. 3095. (^uite so ; but we are speaking of the ad- ditions to be made to Avhat already exists? — When I say a chair of Pali and Prakrit, I mean a chair Avhich Avould have subordinated to it teaehershi])s of Hindustani, Hindi, Bengali, iMahrathi, or the pro- fessor himself might teach these. 3096. {Chairman.) Is Bengali the same language as that called Hindi ? — No ; Bengali is the language of Bengal spoken by thirty-six millions of people, 3097. What is its relation to Hindustani and Hindi ? — It may be regarded as a kindred dialect of Hindi, but not of Hindustani. Persian is the classical language of the Mohammedans of Indi.a, no doubt; but the Mohammedans are only forty-one millions, and the Hindoos are tAvo hundred million^'. 'riierefore the first Avant surely is a chair of Pali and Prakrit in connexion Avith Hindoo vernaculars ; and moreover Pali and Prakrit are thesaoivd languages of the Budd- hists and the ,Iains. The modern Hindoo vernaculars are ol’ten called Prakrits. 3098. {Mr. Bernard.) Supposing Ave took Persian .second according to your vicAV of the matter ; Avould you go further and say Avhat you Avould do next ? — I think Ave Avant a Dravidian chair Avith Tamil and 'rdugu ; and then I think avc ought to have a North- Tui’anian chair AA’ith Turkish ami so on. 3099. Du you antlci[)ato that in order to give some encouragement to those Aarious branches of Oriental lihilology, it Avould be necessary to ])ay to each iierson Avho represented them the kind of stipend Avhic.h is noAv thought requisite for a professor avIkj giAcs his Avhole time to Avork at Oxlbrd, say 600/. a year ? — Certainly not. 3100. You are aAvarc that in Germany much is done in this manner for science at a comnaratively small expense ; Avhat do you contemplate in that Avav here ? — Simply Avhat I suggested Avhen the Council asked me about the teachership of Telugu, and Tamil, Ave might liaA-e a teacher at 200/. a year for Telugu and Tamil, 3101. Should you hope that a number of persons of Oriental experience and interested in Oriental sciemc, Avould be induced to lecture here or to rci)re- sent branches of philological science hero for a com- par.atively small stipend ? — I think so, because there are so many civilians, able men Avho have been 25 or 30 years in India, Avho are still in their prime, and mission.aries and others Avho AAmuld be quite de- lighted to come here and supplement their pensions and have something to do if Ave gave them small stipends. \\’e have this advantage over Russia, and over Franco, and over Germany, that there are numbers of able people in this country Avho Avould bo Avilling to do that. Perhaps I maybe allowed to add that I haA'c had a letter from Lord Northbrook, ex])ressing an opinion that an Indian institute Avould be A'cry useful, and also from Lord Lawrence, Sir William Muir, and othcTs. The Avitness withdreAV. OXFORD. Monivr Williams, JCs(/,, M. A. 30 Oct. 1877. Henry W. Acland, Esq., D.M. (Regius Professor of Medicine), examined. 3102. {Chairman.) It Avoidd be convenient that you should state your views to the Commission according to the heads Avhich you ha\-e jmt doAvn, and lirst Avill you give us your opinion Avhether the arrangements for teaching physical science at Oxford are incomplete or not ? — They are most incomplete. 3103. Why, and to Avhat extent? — They have been gradually and systematically increased as circumstiinccs liave permitted for nearly half a centurv, Aviih much difficulty, and thcrelbre they are essentially in .a slaie of transition. The chief means of .scicntilic instruc- tion in Oxford are at ihc Museum. ’When' that //. W. Acland, Ssq., D.M. Z 3 now 182 UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. H. W. Acland, Esq., I>.M. 30 Oct. 1877. is was, 20 years ago, a ploughed field. The whole of the scientific apparatus is in a progressive condition. The most essential parts had to be provided first. It would not be true to represent any part as complete. 3104. You mean because of its novelty ? — It had to be created anew and is now in course of development. 3105. Have means been provided for practical as well as scientific studies ? — Speaking generally, not. Those who a few years ago attempted to I'econstruct the scientific apparatus in O.vfoid thought that the first point was to develop that which was most necessary, namely, what I may call the, scientific plant ; and at that time they wmi'c not at all cleai' that it was desir- able to burthen the university Avitii the establishment of what may be called the applied or practical depart- ment, of which they were laying the basis in the .scientific instruction. Means of practical work, how- ever, have been begun in several departments, and it seems to me to be a question of degree how far they should be carried ; but on that point of course it would be unbecoming in me to speak in detail, as that would rest with the professors in their several depart- ments. 3106. {Prof. Smith.) May I ask you to explain what you mean by “ practical ” work in this con- ne.xion, as this term is often used in the sense of work in laboi’atories, of which there has, of course, been a large amount ?- — I was just about to explain that point, and to say that when I speak of the apparatus for purely scientific instruction, I mean such instruction as is given in the pure sciences, if 1 may use that expression for natural science, .such as physics and chemistry, and that in each of those de})artments which I was about to name, astronomy, chemistry, j)hysics, anatomy, and to a certain extent hygiene, there have been the means of practical .study provided, because in each ot those subjects, whether we take tlu? applica- tions of those subjects to practise in the several pro- fessions with which they are connected, or whether we confine ourselves to the scientific apparatus, it is neces- sary to have laboratories of various kinds in e\ ery one of them. If I answer that too shortly, it is merely in order that I may not occupy the time of the Com- mission with details which will come out of course in the evidence of my colleagues. But I think that the division is one of extreme importance. I am sure it is so in the department with which I am now specially connected, that of medicine, and I repeat that the object of those who 20 or 25 years ago began the tlevelopment of the means of scientific study in Oxford was to lay the basis of complete scientific instruction, but not of the applied parts, by no means meaning to say that a time would not come when the practical subjects, such as engineering, for instance, such as chemistry applied to manufactures, and such as the clinical study of medicine, would never be required in Oxford at all. At all events the first stej) was to have the means of complete scientific study. The question of also providing actual professional a})pliances was left to the future. This view coincides with one idea of the higher functions of the univer.sity. 3107. {Chairman.) To pass to your own particular faculty of medicine, I think in the papei-s which are before us, in a communication to the Hebdomadal Council, you have stated some reasons why there should not he, at all events on any large scale, a practical medical school in Oxford ; perhaps you will shortly put before us your views on that subject ? — That question must be answered according to the view which one may take of the functions of a great uni- vei’sity, and that subject comes in immediate illustra- tion of your Lordship’s previous question. If we ask our.sclves whether a small practical .School of Medi- cine could be created at the Oxford County Hospital, supposing the university to provide scientific instruc- tion at the Museum, I should say then of course, under conditions, there can be developed a certain kind ol' medical school there. If I ask myself this question, whether auotlier small medical scliool in a country iowu of moderate size is required in England, in a national point of view, I should say, most unquestion- ably not. There is no need for another one in Oxford ; but speaking as a person who is connected with the general medical education of the country through the Medical Council, I should say that there is a very great need of throwing into the profession as many highly-trained university students as we can, that is to say, persons who have been trained in whatever is the most approved method of general education, classical, mathematical, and philosophical, with fundamental scientific training. It would be desirable to send as many young men trained in that way into the general schools of medicine, in London and elsewhere, as possible. But to retain those persons at our small hospital would be simply to trifie with their future career. That is the view which has been taken by many eminent persons who have given their attention to the subject in my know- ledge for over 30 years. That was strongly the opinion of the late Sir Benjamin Brodie, who in con- junction with Sir James Graham and other persons, 30 years ago looked into the whole question of the improvement of medical education in Great Britain. I say this, from repeated conversation with them and from remarks in vaiious blue books and elsewhere. I know it also to be the opinion of Ur. Stokes, speaking for Ireland, and of Sir Robert Christison, speaking for Scotland. Sir .lames Paget in London, who is one of the great thinkers upon the subject, in answer io a letter from me, writes thus, “ You have quite “ rightly expressed my opinion as to the highest pur- “ l)o^e which Oxford and Cambridge may serve, and “ indeed have served, and are serving, in relation to “ our profession, viz., the educating young men to be “ gentlemen and men of science, who may elsewhere “ be educated to be physicians and .surgeons of the “ highest social and professional rank. And certainly “ you m.ay tell any one you please this is what I “ think.” May 1 be allowed to make one other statement in speaking of the Infirmary, and its rela- tion to the university. I should like to put it on record that great pains have been taken for several years to render that institution available as an example of a well-arranged sanitary hospital, and generally to prepare it for anything which your Com- mission or any such authority should suggest to be desirable. We have built there a clinical laboratory so that that work could be begun if you desire it. We have endeavoured to prepare the institution for any development which you may think advisable. There- fore it is not that we cannot at once attempt to create another Practical School of Medicine and Surgery under the requisite conditions if you desire it, but only that it is not desirable to do it ; and that the work of the university in that department is at present another work, which will amply task its resources lor some time to come. 3108. How far might the scientific instruction in medicine be advantageously carried on at Oxford, without attempting to have a complete pi’actical school here ? — Supposing that there are the mo.st complete means for scientific education in Physical Science in Oxford, up to the point for which they are being prepared now, I think that practically would draw the line. All the scientific studies which can be carried on at the place called the Museum, can be carried on in Oxford. The studies which require the establishment of a great hospital and its great teaching staff can be better pursued in London, Edinburgh, or Dublin. It would be very easy of course to state this in detail but it would save the time of the Commission if I hand in formally the paper to which you have alluded, and which 1 sent to the Vice-Chan- cellor by his desire. It gives the state of the case I think as clearly as I can put it for I have given a list of the subjects which are studied in a great Medical School with the professors who are there required, and I have also given a list of those which seem to me to be essential, .speaking of medicine only, for the scientific study of medicine. UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ( The JoUowing paper was delivered in :) On the SciENTii'TC and Practical .Studies con- nected with Medicine in the University of Oxford. — A Letter to the Very Reverend the Vice-Chancellor by Dr. Acland, Regius Pro- fessor of Medicine : 1874. Mu. Vice-Chancellor, Oxford, April 17, 1874. 1 HAVE delayed hitherto to answer your questions as to the jirofessorships of medicine in this university, in the hope that the Reports of the Commissions on Scientific Education and on the Revenues of the University might hoth he completed, and that they might furnish me in this period of transition with the fullest data for the solu- tion of a difficult problem. But 1 do not feel justified in longer delay, and have therefore the honour of submitting to you the following brief remarks, embodying my own general conclusions as to the functions of Oxford in respect of an important and much discussed department of national education. It is within your personal knowledge that I published some carefully formed opinions on this subject in the year 1848, in consequence of a Bill brought in by Sir James Graham relative to medical licensing bodies. Since then I have had on various occasions publicly to exjiress my sentiments on the subject — before the Commission of which you were a member in 1854, before the Schools’ Commission, the Science Education Commission, and elsewhere. The circumstances of the university have greatly changed in the 2(i years since 1848. But I am happy to say that the principles on which, as regards science teaching, the university has acted have been hitherto confirmed by the course of events. You ask me the following questions ; — 1. Is the present number of pcf ssors sufficient for the studies with which your professorship is connected ? 2. Is the distribution of subjects among such jirofessors satisfactory ? • .'1. Will it be expedient to make a distinction between ])rofessors-in-chief and readers (or assistant-professors) ? And, if so, what should be the relation of the assistant- professors to the ])rofessors-in-chief ? 4. Are there any subjects connected with your professor- ship for which it might he expedient to make temporary or occasional provision only ? Formal answers to the questions given above will he valueless unless the recent history of the faculty of medi- cine in the university is borne in mind. Evidence given on behalf of the university, before a Committee of the House of Commons in 1848, showed conclusively that 25 years ago there was neither attem|it nor desire on the ]iart of the university to prosecute medical studies at Oxford in a serious manner. In that same year I addressed a paper to the Council of the university, advocating the jirinciple, that though the university should then make no attempt to form a complete School of Practical Medicine, nevertheless' it might and should maintain a Department of Physical Science, capable of the utmost develoiiment, and including all the sub- jects which are fundamental to the science and the art of medicine. In the year 1858 the present professor, after serving for 13 years as Lee’s Reader in Anatomy, succeeded to the professorships of medicine held by his predecessor, who was then also ex-officid the university Professor of Anatomy. The medical professorships so held are two — The Regius Professorship of Medicine. The Professorship of Clinical Medicine. There is therefore in the professoriate of Oxford only one person to represent the entire medical department. If the university shall determine hereafter to develope either the practical branches or only the seientific branches of a School of Medicine, the existing arrangement will be entirely indefensible. Two illustrations will prove this : 1. The followng are the strictly medical subjects pro- fessed in the university of Edinburgh, excluding the science professorships at the foundation of medicine, such as physics, chemistry, and biology. Materia medica. Medical jurisprudence and ])olice. Medical psychology. Mental diseases. Practical instruction in mental diseases at asylums. Practice of physic. Clinical medicine. Midwifery and diseases of women and children. Clinical gynaecology. Obstetric operations. General jiathology. Practical pathology and morbid anatomy. Surgery. Clinical surgery. Operative surgery. Diseases of the eye. Bandaging and surgical ap|iliances. 2. In Guy’s Hospital the following, exclusive of the science subjects, are taught by more than 20 different teachers : — Medicine. Clinical medicine. Surgery, Clinical surgery. Practical surgery. Morbid anatomy. Medical jurisprudence. Materia medica. Midwifery (lying-in-charity, about 2,000 seen annually). Diseases of women. Ophthalmic surgery. Pathology. Hygiene. Morbid histology. Surgical pathology. Operative surgery. Surgical apjdiances. Cutaneous diseases. Dental surgery. Aural surgery. Mental diseases. Clinic of insane at Bethlehem Hospital. The subjects of detailed instruction are still more numerous in the universities of Germany. If, therefore, the Oxford of the future undertake to place its medical jirofessoriate on a level with other insti- tutions, such as the University of Edinburgh or Guy’s Hosjiital, or even the smaller universities of Germany, it will be necessary to make at the least the following addi- tions ; — I. Additions to professoriate hi relation to scientific (jromdwork in medicine ; — * One additional iirofessor in physics. One in chemistry. Two in biology. (Tlie arrangements for botany, zoology, physical geo- graphy, meteorology, and geology, in their relation to medicine, require consideration.) II. Subjects in which it would he necessary to provide pro- fessors or teachers in relation to the practical work of medicine. Systematic medicine. Practical medicine, and clinic (by all the physicians of the infirmary, and e.xtra clinic by the local govern- ment an(^ dispensary medical officers). Systematic surgery. Practical surgery and clinic (by all the surgeons of the infirmary and by the local government and dispensary medical officers). Psychological medicine and clinic at the asylums. Materia medica and jiharmacy. Medical jurisprudence and toxicology. General and comparative pathology, requiring an assistant demonstrator for microscopical and chemi- cal j)athology. Ophthalmology. Midwifery and diseases of women and children, clinic of local government officers and lying-in-charities. National health. Medical and \dtal statistics illustrated by the town and district. To carry out the above the university shoidd have access to all existing means for medical teaching within her precincts ; not only, that is, to all the cases at the infir- mary, but those of the local government, the asylums, the dispensary and lying-in gharities, and the sickness and death registers of the district. Now looking at all these circumstances, it seems desir- a’ole that the university should, without delay, decide whether it will undertake the organisation of the depart- ment of practice before completing the department of science. For not doing so there are three strong arguments : — 1. That a purely scientific School of Biology, in the widest sense of the word, is a national want. Oxford has entered on providing it, and has yet very much to do towards the completion of it. • The details of this seientific branch are left indistinci, as helonfrinp to the scientific stalT. and are hinted at only to make this general sketch more intclliKiblo. Z 4 0X1 OKU. H. W. Acland, Esq., D.M. 30 Oct. 1877. 184 UNIVERSlTr OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — JIINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. 2. 'I'hat the opportunities for the practical study of medicine in our great metropolitan hospitals are unsur- //. IF. Ac/diid, jiassed in tlie world, and that similar opportunities cannot Esq., D.M. be founil in Oxford. __ .‘i. That the university cannot afford to incur the danger 30 Oct. 18 / /. ^gipj^ce School of having to adajit itself to imperfectly- trained pass students in medicine, whose interest it would be to drag down the teaching of the science classes to ihe mininmm of professional requirement. 1‘or this reason alone the university should free itself of all responsibility with regard to “ aj)plied ” departments which it cannot entirely regulate. But should it be thought desirable to found an indepen- dent jnactical school taught by the infirmary, dispensaiy, and local government medical officers, as above suggested, the science students, and (as will be ])resently shown) others also, would resort to it m j)ro])ortion to the ad\ an- tages whicli such a school at O.xford could offer in com- ])arison with practical schools elsewhere. That a ))ractical school so limited might be of real service could be easily shown. Ihougii the university should not at present jirofess to teach, or to do original work, in all the subjects enumerated above, it would be to her interest m every way that the medical institutions of the city should be a*model in all particulars to other towns. It is (juite conceivable that just as in the infirmary, every modern but real sanitary improvement, every sound method of administration, every arrangement for economy, lor nursing, for training nurses, for sick cooking, could be shown to students ; so also the city as a city might be able to display such a harmony of organisation in the medical charities, that the medical ofiicers could teach, without waste of time or effort, in the dwellings of the sick jioor what can only he taught and studied in them, as well as in the wards of the hospital, the asylum, or the union. The district of the surrounding counties would, under the chief medical health officer of tlie district, afford oiqior- tunity for the study of some of the laws affecting national health. In this way, though Oxford might not be resorted to for the purposes of an ordinary medical school, it might have the opiiortunity of teaching as a whole, and on an adequate scale, much that no ordinary school can wisely attempt. In such a system as this, persons of either se.x and of aii}'^ age, and destined for any walk in life, medical men, clergy, missionaries (lay or ecclesiastic;, nurses, might with much advantage be received. .\fter this introduction, which is too short to set forth the whole of a difficult subject, the questions at the head of these remarks may be succinctly answered thus : — Ad()])ting the view of devclo]iing only the scientific side of medicine and not the practical, it is desirable to appoint immediately — 1. A Professor of General and Comparative Pathology. P. A Demonstrator and Lecturer on Ophthalmology. .’1. A Lecturer on Comparative National Health. 4. An Analyst and Demonstrator of Medical and Sani- tary Chemistry and Microscopy, as assistant to the Regius Professor. These may be ajipointed for a period of not more than five years. ‘The first, the second, and the third need not at present be resident ; the fourth must be resident. One person may hold the two offices of Analyst and Demon- strator, or they may be divided between two persons. The last ])erson or persons should be appointed by the Regius Professor of Medicine. A capital sum is not required for these offices — an anniral grant only for the first, second, and third, and a grant to the Regius Professor for the fourth. If any jiractical teaching be attenqited, the duties and emoluments of the clinical professorship should be distri- buted on the principle indicated at p. , among those who join the proposed staff of teachers. In answer to the last question, it may he briefly said that grants for obtaining occasional work of importance in the department of medicine, without fixing a capital sum for the imrpose, are specially desirable. In conclusion it may be remarked, that by the plans here, briefly hinted at, opportunities will be afforded for thorough introductory education for younger students, and for advanced scientific research by older medical students and medical graduates, although for the bulk of the students’ time the large medical schools will always have to be resorted to. Some subjects of much importance connected with the Faculty of Medicine are not touched ujion in this com- munication as not being within the scope of your ques- tions. I have, &c. Henuv W. Aci..\ni), To the Very Rev. the Regius Professor of Medicine. Vice-Chancellor of the University of Oxford. Mr. Vice-Chancellor, Oxford, May 20, 18/4. I AVAIL myself of your jiermission to siqiplemcnt my jirofessorial answer to you by a few words on jioints not exactly within the limits of your questions. Thirty years ago it could not be said that Oxford had entered on a career of natural science instruction and re- search worthy of a great unive.rsity, notwithstanding the jirescnce of such men as Kidd, Buckland, Baden-Powell, Daubeny, and others. Convocation, however, has now for some years embarked on this career. We have therefore in our future votes to compare our scientific institutions, not with the Oxford of the past, but with institutions in this and other countries wherein natural science plays an important part. If we act otherwise, the usefulness of the whole university must obviously be impaired. We have to ask, not so much what has been done (many of us have reason to be deeply grateful for that), but we should ask what have we yet to do"? The loss of our valued Professor of Geology will neces- sitate fresh legislation, it is certain his successor will require more sjiacc in the museum ; that he will ask to have his chair divided, or to have skilled assistants ; and that the arrangements for the several professorships con- nected with biology will in consequence have to be re- considered. If each one of these steps be not taken, the university, as compared with other great universities, will certainly and justly fall in public esteem. Now the demand for space and rearrangement will at once affect the departments of chemistry, mineralogy, zoology, and probably physiology. The last of these can, if requisite, at any moment be extended northwards or eastwards. The geology, ifoology, and mineralogy can all obtain room eastwards, and then the south wing can be given up to the chemical department. The whole of these alterations can be made without materially disturbing during their jirogress any existing work. .An o])portunity also now occurs for settling whether the vegetable jiortion of biology shall be severed in perpetuity in Oxford from the animal jiortion, or whether our botanical houses, all requiring rebuilding, shall be rebuilt near the collections which contain the fossil flora, and near the laboratories in which the jihysics and chemistry of jilants and of agriculture may be studied; and whether the jiro- fessors and students of botany shall in jicrpetuity be connected with, or cast off from, the jirofessors, the students, and the great scientific library of reference in the museum. The sum required for what is above named, if expended now, will not be large. Calculating roughly, about 8,000Z.* will jirovide sjiace for the geology, chemistry, mineralogy', and zoology for many years to come. As the botanical houses have to be rebuilt, probably an excess of 3,000L may pay for the incalculable advantage to the future of biology in Oxford of their change of site. It is hard to see how any of the colleges which are desiring to promote the progress of natural science could better expend for the public good any available funds than in carrying out for the university one or other of these objects, under proper conditions. 2. You will observe that while in these remarks I am advocating the investing of capital in “ plant,” I have, in my professorial answers to you, adi'ocated with regard to research and lectureships the principle of terminable grants out of income. This last prineijile should, I believe, be very largely employed in our jiresent transitional state. With respect to the natural science department, I hope that the museum delegates will be entrusted hereafter with ample powers for this purpose. 3. I take this opportunity of saying, that should the Bodleian Library be built in the jiark, the Radclitfe build- ing would be set free from its special use as Reading Room to the Bodleian. It is nobly adapted for an art gallery. If it could be obtained for that purpose it might save the university the expense of enlarging the Taydor Institution and the Ruskin Drawing School ; since room might pro- bably be then obtained in the present galleries for the extension of the Taylor. * ExeluBiveof w4iicli Iwve to be i;raduall,y provided. UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 185 4. Lastly, I beg leave to remind you that the above observations are marie in virtue of duties whieh as ])ro- fessor I have to discharge in resj)ect of the Bodleiaii and the Botanical Garden ; and in virtue of official duties in the lladcliffe and the galleries. As regards the last insti- tution, t.e., the art de])artment of the univer.-ity, I hold it a duty, in the interest of natural science studies, to pro- mote in Oxford a school of accurate drawing from nature, quite irrespective of any interest I may have in a non- official way in the subject of art in general. I have, &c. Henry W. Acland. 3109. May I ask whether the subject of medicine is at all analogous to the subject of law, inasmuch as in law as well as in medicine you would not attempt to make a Practical School of Law in tlie University, but you would desire to teach it .scieulifictilly and to give the pupils preparatory instruction? — 'lhat is exactly my view so far as I understand the ques- tion of law, to which I paid some attention formerly, when the subject Avas being discussed Avith regard to the faculty of laAv. I supjAOse they must bo considered to be closely analogous the one to the other. 3110. The university has not taken the same course with regard to medicine as it has Avith regard to law, it has not allowed it to be taken in as a subject for the degree in arts ? — There is a Scliool of Natural Science in Avliich persons can take the same course as they can in law. The subjects taken up in the School of Natural Science are those which 1 have described as the studies pursued in the Museum, idthough I shoulil not be prepared to say that the arrangements of the Science School are yet perfect. Speaking generally, there is a School of Natural Science in Avhich the fundamental subjects of Physies, Chem- istry, and Biology, Avitli their subdivisions, may be taken up by the students ; and those tire the pre- paratory subjects Avliich should be pursued in Oxford by students intending to proceed in medicine. 3111. Is it or not possible Avith advantage to go a step further towards medicine proper, for instance, are lectures given by the Piofessor in the History of Medicine ? — ^There never liave been such lectures as for as I knoAV, and 1 should doubt whether it Avould be advantageous to students at that period of their studies to attempt it ; in fact most of the questions Avhich would be discussed in the History of Medicine avouUI be unintelligible to them, but I should not like to pledge myself against it. If it were desirable that such lectures should be given they could be giA-en. 3112. Of course you are avcII acquainted Avith Sir Thomas AVatson’s book upon medicine generally ? — Yes. 3113. Is it {(Ossible that instruction such as is found in that book, Avhich is perfectly intelligible even to nou-professional students, might be advantageously given in the university as a part of a general course, which might or might not lead to the j)i'o- fcssional study of medicine ? — Sir Thomas Watson’s book is a book on the practice of medicine simply. 3114. But it is perfectly intelligible to those Avho do not intend to practise it, not perhaps in all points, but generally ? — Yes, it is a beautiful book, and a book Avhich Avill give a general idea of the condition of the practice of medicine better than any other book in our language : but for the actual practice of the sub- ject it is of very little use, unless it is accomi)auied by a close attendance upon cases in hospitals. The student of science here should not be diverted from his preparatory and fundamental scientific studies Avhich are becoming every year more extensh-c and complex. 3115. Is it your view that an elementary knoAV- ledge of j)athology is of no use to anyone avIio does not intend to enter the profession of medicine ? — So i'ar is that from being my opinion, that one of the pro- posals Avhich I have to submit to the Commissioners, and Avhich I have already jtresented to the Hebdomadal Council, is that there should be a Professor of General and Comparative Pathology appointed Avithout delay. Q 6223. OXFORD. 7/. W. Acland, Esq., D.M. And my reason for that proposal is that we have a Professor of Anatomy and Physiology, whose department, so vast already that it is quite impos- sible for him thoroughly to carry it on (as of course you Avill have evidence of by-and-by), is in- 30 Oct. 1877. complete !is an exposition of biology, unless the means for the study of pathological subjects can be provided for his students. I have stated in the preface to a small Avork which I published, that the biological department is incomplete unless the mode of death is taught as well as the mode of evolution and groAvth. I have therefore thought it my' duty since I have been Professor of Medicine to provide a pathological department for biological students, in order that they may see the course of diseases generally, and their modes of termination, Avhich are not shoAvn b}'^ the Professor of Healihy^ Anatomy^ and Physiology. The Professor of General and Comparative Pathology if appointed would add to the scientific and educational resources of the country ; he Avould take a purely scientific vieAv of the inodes of disease, the invasion of disease, and the modes of death in men and in animals. He Avould act in a complementary manner to the Professor of Human and Comparative Anatomy as he noAV exists ; and I think that such an officer is really required. Then the medical students, those avIio are preparing for the medical jirofession, Avould folloAV his instruction and obtain Avide vicAvs of pathology', such as those Avhich are touched ujion by Sir Thomas Watson in the early part of the volume to Avhich your Lordship has alluded. He Avould be trained, so far as a young medical student can be, in the modes of pathological inquiry, Avhether by' experiment or othenvise. But it is very doubtful Avhether a young medical student can really acquire a full knoAvledge of pathology until he has been through the Avards of a hospital. 31 16. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you mean by comparative pathology, pathology as ap])lied not only' to men but to animals ? — Yes, to animals as well as men. 3117. In that respect Avould it difiei’ from the chair of general pathology Avhich exists in the university of Edinburgh. I think I understood you to say that your proposed chair Avould be an addition to the resources of Great Britain in this respect, and is I suppose a novelty to some extent ? — That Avould be so. It has been to some extent attempted in con- nexion Avith the Privy Council. Dr. Burdon Sander- son is Avell knoAvn as the exponent of Avhat is here suggested. The iiu'estlgation into the causes and progress of the cattle plague is an illustration of one limited part of the subject. Professor Beale and other physicians Avere pliced on a commission in order to investigate in a broad and general manner the fundamental causes of that ut to yon a question which I have already asked. If those duties remain substantially unchanged, if they continue to be in the future what they are at present, is it desirable to impose the re- striction of residence upon the professor ? — I should not impose a new restriction, because I do not think such a restriction exists at the present moment. It ■was (juite competent to the Crown, so far as I under- stood at the time, to appoint any person in Loudon or elsewhere ; and I never heard that any restriction as to residence was imposed. There never has been a non-resident, so for as I know, but I doubt if residence is imposed by any statute. 3140. If the duties are to be of the general kind which you have described, it is essential, is it not, that there should be the widest field of choice ? — Cerdainly. 3141. {Chairman.) But those duties which you describe, as I uuderstand you, have really more reference to the profession of medicine and to matters extraneous to the university than to the university itself, or to anything properly academical, have they not ? — They seem to me to be quite necessary, if there is to be a faculty of medicine in the university at all. All those functions which I have mentioned are lunctions which have practically to be discharged, and have been discharged with more or less assiduity. It would be a change for the worse, if they were thought to be uo part of the general duties of the chief professor. 3142. I may have misunderstood you, but with the exception of conducting the medical examinations I failed to hear you mention any duty which seems properly academical and, in that sense, properly con- nected with the Professorship of Medicine — When, after having been Lee’s Header in Anatomy for 14 years, and having, with able assistants — Professors Beale, Melville of Galway, Victor Cams of Leipzig, and Mr. Bobertsou — made an extensive and costly Biological collection, I became Professor of Medicine, tiiere was no book, document, drawing, dissection, or apparatus of any kind whatsoever belonging to the department. I have thought it right to endeavour to obtain, and have obtained through the generosity of the university, apartments for the professor, in which examination papers and all othei' documents con- nected with the office are kept. There is an apart- ment for the study of the advanced scientific work that lies at the root of medicine. It contains instru- ments, for instance, for scientific observations of the eye, ophthalmoscopes, microscopes, sphygmographs, and so forth, all of which have been obtained at my expense, because I did not think that the time was come Avhen an application could be .safely made to Convocation for apparatus which might be consideretl to belong to the practical department. A considerable collection of ])athological specimens has also been made. 4'here is also an analytical laboratory for the purpose of public health, which is now kept constantly at work by the Public Analyst by private arrangement with myself. So that already the Professor of Medi- cine has, besides the charge of the examinations, and besides a collection of scientific apparatus connected with medicine directly, a pathological collection and a public health laboratoiy. All that would be neces- sary to make those actively available would bo to enable him to have one or two assistants. If I could have au assistant to-morrow who was a pathologist, there is the. pathological collection ami apparatus foi’ him. If the university or the county paid the Public Analyst, there is the sanitary laboratory in which he is at work. I think the Professor of Medicine, under all circumstances, .should be responsible for these several sub-departments, himself generally super- vising them, and, according to his particular kind of knowledge, himself lecturing and teaching in those departments in which he was an authority. He might happen to be an authority in pathology ; he might happen to be an authority in hygiene and public health ; or he might happen, like Sir Thomas Watson, 1o be a great practitioner, and a man of pre-eminent culture, who would lecture well ou the history of medicine. I should give him the utmo.st latitude (while calling upon him to superintend the several de- p.artments which I have mentioned) himself to teach in whatever direction he felt himself capable, and that the wants of the time required. In the last few years it has been of great importance to push forward the department of public health. That has been done in Oxford in various ways. At another time it might be the history of medicine, as your lordship suggested, and at another time it might be pathology ; but I should be very sorry to tie him up to the di.scharge of special duties, it being very doubtful what the future of the country, and what the future of science, will require of him. Nothing would be more acceptable to the present professor than to be freed from the distraction of multifarious duties, and to be concen- trated on one. The transitional state of the university has made the former, and not the latter, bis first duty. 3143. {Prof. Smith.) You do not think it desirable to impose any lecturing duties upon the Begins Pro- fessor of Medicine in the future ? — If I did impose any lecturing duties upon him I shoidd impose upon him the duty of giving so many lectures, but I should not specify the subjects. Whether medicine is viewed in the direction of public health, or of pathology, or of practice, or what not, the range of subjects is so wide that if 1 imposed any lecturing duty upon him I should leave it open to him according to his capacity and knowledge to lecture upon what he pleased. 3144. {Chairman.) Probably that would be very wise ; but if no lectures were required from him at all, the other things which you have mentioned, except the superintendence of collections and examina- tions, would depend siuq)ly upon the iiersonal activity and taste of the individual professor, would they not? ■ — Yes. 3145. And they could hardly be referred even to the head of research ; the rest would be neither edu- cation nor research, but rather a representation by certain forms of activity in the medical profes.sion, would it not ? — Yes ; I think that that might be. a ^•ery fair criticism. At the same time I would observe that if a per.son of activity and of eminence and of knowledge should hereafter be found to occupy the post (I wish that such a person had always occiq)ied it hitherto, I cannot, of course, claim that), I think you may (piite safely leave him to do that which would be the best for his department. I think that all original research depends upon spontaneous aclivity ; that an active and able person generally knows best in what direction he can best serve both the time and the science to which he is attached. He might happen to be a great microscopi.st ; he might happen to be a great pathologist, or he might have tendencies in this, that, or the other diiection, and he would certainly use the powers that he had. 3146. A Professor of Law who was not to teach would l)e purely ornamental to the university, would he not, though he might be very active and useful as a member of his profession ? — I could not venture to answer with regard to the subject of law, but with regard to the subject of medicine I may say that the amount of literature, that there is now, is of the very best kind ; and that the exposition of almost every de- partment which is given in print and in books is .“o full that it would take a great number of lectures indeed to be equal to that which the student can road as well or better iu bt>oks. Prior to this century I think 1 may say all the real instruction in medicine was given orally. There is much more to be done now, in the circumstances of Oxford, in the apparently indefinite ways that I have mentioned than there is by the mere delivery of written lectures. A great change has come o^ cr the departments of science even in my memory in that direction. Excepting where objects have to be shown, or enthusiasm kindled by general discourses, books have become suj)erIor to lectures from the mass of detail to be mastered. Where there are to be demonstrations they must be given by oral UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISMON : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 189 exposition. Wliere there is merely a delivery of written discourses in a practical subject like medicine I very much doubt whether the number of lectures is any test of the value of the performance. The late Sir Benjamin Brodie u.sed repeatedly to speak in this sense, as the result of long observation in others and. his personal experience. 3147. {Prof. Smith.) Would this proposal be very contrary to your views, that the Regius Professor of Medicine should hereafter be allowed a patbological assistant and demonstrator, whose duties it should be to make use of the collections which the present Regius Professor of Medicine has formed for the in- struction of students, as far as that is possible ; and that besides this the Regius Professor of Medicine should be required to give a reasonable number of lectures upon subjects within the province of his chair to be chosen absolutely by himself ? — I think that woidd very correctly e.xpress my view, with only one addition. I have a decided opinion that the best use that can be made of any grants for the department of medicine is, that the Regius Professor of JMedicine should have it in his i)Ower to appoint persons for particular kinds of work. I have already had expe- rience of that method, and I am (piite sure that it would be of much more adv'antagc to the country that a trustworthy person should lie able to dis[)Ose of any sum from 100/. to 500/. a year, for particular lines of work for limited time, on the principle of the grants of the Royal Society and of the British Association, the working of which is very well known ; rather than that if be has an assistant he should be bound to employ him alwaj^s for a jiarticular purpose which should be named now in this year, 1877. It might be the best thing to employ for the ne.xt three or four years a pathologist, and after that, supposing that this gentleman died, or retired, or got promoted, the best thing might be to appoint a special micro- scopist or a special anatomist, or even a physici.st for a special purpose. I believe that this is an un- palatable doctrine for the public, because they dis- like to hand over to individuals power of that kind ; but I am sure that the best use that could be made of any annual income would not be to appoint a definite assistant for a particular purpose, but to make the Regius Professor responsible for the administration of funds for such purposes as were required. I may further answer Professor Smith’s question by saying that I should be very glad to have now the help of a comparative pathologist, who need not be resident, to do particuliir work. In two or three years one might see the results. We might have, for instance, a hospital for diseases of animals, like the Brown Institute in London. That might help a great want in the country. This assistant Professor of Com- parative Pathology might be found to do so good work, that you might like to make the office permanent ; but 1 should not like in this year to pledge myself absolutely even to that. 3148. This non-resident demonstrator or assistant professor would naturally come down to Oxford to give lectures ? — Certainly. May I venture to give two illustrations which will express what I mean. Supposing that you placed at my dis[>osal 500/. a year for the next five years. I do not of course pledge myself as to what I would do with it ; but supposing that 1 were to induce Professor Helmholtz to come ami to give a certain number of lectures in the entirely masterly way that he would give them on ophthal- mology ; he would show the marvellous effect of modern mathematics, physics, biology, and thera- peutics, upon our knowledge of the organs of the eye ; and if Professor Helmholtz would do that you would have publi.shed by the University Press at the end of two or three years such a perfect illustration of the aims and condition of biology in relation to medicine as could not be surpasse(l in the j)re.sent state of knowledge. The same would happen if Dr. Burdon Sanderson engaged to deal in like manner with general comparative pathology. It would be absolutely use- less for those per.sons to be obliged to reside in Oxl'urd for 10 out of the 12 months in the year. 3149. Ten months a good deal exceeds the acade- mical year, does it not ? — Yes ■ but when I had been speaking of tlie residence of the Regius Professor of Medicine I beg leave to say that I was speaking of bond fide residence in Oxford. I am sure from what I have observed during now many years of positive residence myself in Oxford, that the influence of a person wiio merely comes down from Lonilon, or some other [>lace which is his dwelling place, to give certain lectures exercises very liMle influence in Oxford ; and it therefore must only be with the greatest caution that I should allow non-residence for a particular purpose and for a temporary purpose. By residence I mean a bond fide residence in Oxford, and not the glared tlown residence of six weeks three times in the year. 3150. {Chairman.) You would not mean residence during vacations, would you ? — I should not insist upon his residing in Oxford during vacation ; but in the case of the present Regius Professor of Medicine and his predeces.sor, he is a. bona fide resident in the place, and that is a very different thing fi’om a temporary bird of passage, such as many of the members of the university are, coming up and giving lectures, but residing really bond fide elsewhere with their families. 3151. For the purpose of a professorship, speak- ing generally, would you not consider that the object of residence was attained if the professor were resi- dent during the whole of every academical term ? — Residence lias been becoming less of late years, because it seem.s that eight weeks is now considered the working term, and if there are 12 lectures to be given those lec'liires may 1)3 given on Saturday and on Monday, for instance ; and virtually the students lose in that way contact with the life and character and personal influence of [)erhaps an eminent person, ami that I think to be a great disadvantage. It reepures, perhaps, that a person should reside in the town (as in the case of the Professor of Medicine being also a resident physician necessarily happens,) to see the full force of that, because it tells in various w'ays. It tells not only upon the students, but upon the life of the tutors, and upon the senior residents also. The ■whole problem of residence and non-residence is nicely balanced, and my opinion is that no universal rule as to residence should be applied. 3152. {Prof. Smith.) With reference to what you have been saying, do you not think that -when an exten- sive plant has been established at great cost by the university for the teaching of scientific subjects, that plant should be available for instruction for a longer period than six months or 24 weeks in the year ? — I am unwilling to give an opinion upon that, because I have already said that the influence of those who live virtually almost the whole of the year in Oxford, to whom Oxford is their home, is of a diffe- rent kind from that of those who are only as it were birds of passage ; and I can only say, therefore, as a resident, that the taking away of opportunities of in- struction during the six months of the vacations, is to me one of the most sorrowful things that I witness in life ; I have known young men both belonging to the tinivcrsity and belonging to the city, lo be desirous of using those opportunities, and for no conceivable reason tlir.t I can make out, to be entirely debarred from them. I need not s-iy that the libraries are kept ()[)('n. 3153. {Chairman.') Are yon speaking ot opj)or- tunities of instruction, or of o])portunities of access to the buildings and collections ? — I mean chiefly oppor- tunities of access to the collections, with full power of studying in them. I am aware that this is a delicate subject which has only lately been much discussed. I therefore speak with hesitfition about it, because there. ha))pens to be a good deal of feeling just now, as to whether the long vacation can safely be ntilised or not. But what Professor Smith has put is a self- evident proposition. We have a great plant in the A a 3 OXFORD. H. W. Acland, Esq., D.M. 30 Oct. 1877. 190 UNIVEKSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. li. IF. Acland, Esq., D.M. 30 Oct. 1877. museum, and it seems a pity that by a sort of accident it should be closed during so many weeks of tlie year. The scieutitic library is open to the public, though that is also necessarily closed for a certain time, but under conditions which allow serious students to use it notwithstanding. 3154. Supposing that there were such a scientific medical school as you would establish, would the uni- versity have its relations Avith the infirmary dissolved or maintained ? — The relation of the university to the infirmary is simply this : that the Professor of Clinical INIedicine, who is of course a university professor, must be one of the physicians of the infirmary. Therefore the choice of that person must he limited to one of the three physicians of that institution, who are elected hy the governors and not by the univer- sity, and by a recent regulation of the governors need not have had any university education ; so that, sup- posing they elected Sir William Gull Professor of Clinical Medicine, he could not exercise any functions in his department, for here also the governors have rescinded the privileges which the university professor formerly had of selecting cases for instruction. I believe that it would he a far better arrangement for the purpose of the study of practical medicine if there Avere a Professor of General and ComparatiA-e Patho- logy appointed, and if all the staff of the infirmary Avere left free to develop a practical school if they thought fit. In fact I should let the university elect a Professor of General and Comparative Pathology, aa4io might or might not bo a physician of the infir- mary. I may, I think, complete the ansAver by say- ing that you Avould set the infirmary stafi’ free, and if the physicians and surgeons of the infirmai’y desired eminence as teachers they Avould all teach as a com- bined body, just as they do in a London school ; and the Professor of General and Comparative Pa- thology or the Professor of Medicine, or the Pro- fessor of Biology, if he happen to be a physician, might also be one of their staff. I should leave them free to teach as a j)rac(ical school, and if they Avere eminent as teachers they Avould attract students, who Avould of course frequent the university scientific de- partment. 3155. Are you of opinion that the professoriate in the biological department generally Avants increase ? — Without question. 3156. What increase do you consider is necessary ? — First of all, reA'erting to the university require- ments stated by the Hebdomadal Council in their Eeport, at page 10, they there say that there is re- quired a Professor of Human and ComparatiA'C Ver- tebrate Anatomy. To that I agree, understanding that that includes, as of course it Avould include, ethnology, or the study of the human races generally. There are many controversies Avith reference to the meaning of the Avords anthropology and ethnology. I Avill not enter into those controversies, but human and comparative A-ertebrate anatomy probably in- cludes ethnology and anthropology. I think that the Professor of Invertebrate Anatomy cannot discharge those functions Avith advantage. I think that there should be an additional Professor of Zoology and IiiA^ertebrate Anatomy, excluding entomology. 3157. Why Avould you exclude entomology? — Because the study of entomology is one of those specially restricted subjects of A’ast extent, which requires quite a particular kind of scientific person, and because the uniAmrsity has accepted a great col- lection of entomology proper, comprising perhaps 500,000 insects, and that is quite enough for one person — he cannot properly do more ; and because I think that the subject of zoology and invertebrate anatomy is absolutely required to supplement the subject of human and comparatiA'e vertebrate ana- tomy. 3158. {Prof. Smith.) So that you Avould divide the professorsliip (C.j in the statement of the council into tAVO, one of zoology and inA^ertebrate anatomy, and the other of entomology ? — That is all. I am truly sorry to add another professorship, because in all the o])inious that I haA^e ever expressed, it lias been my desire to keep the number doAvn as far as possible ; but, at the same time, if I am asked as a scientific man to express my opinion of what is desirable, I must say that I do not see how one person can with advantage to the university Avoi'k the department of zoology and invertebrate anatomy together Avith that of entomology. I should therefore divide it into two. If preferred, I should say let there bo an Assistant Professor of Entomology, but there must be tAVO persons, I think, for branch (C.). 3159. {Chairman.) Putting aside all special con- siderations, and looking at it on general grounds, is it not reasonably clear that it Avould be a very artifi- cial arrangement of the subject to exclude entomo- logy from a chair of zoology and invertebrate ana- tomy ; I do not mean that you ought not to provide specially for the teaching of entomology, but to exclude it from the chair of zoology and im^ertebratc anatomy Avould be a very extraordinary thing ; could anyone teach the science of invertebrate anatomy and zoology in a satisfactory Avay Avithout reference to entomology ? — I think that one must make a divi- sion soracAAdierc, and I should therefore liaA^e a pro- fessor or assistant professor, as he might be called, of entomology, and that being provided for, it Avould be useless to require the Professor of Zoology and Imati-- tebrate Anatomy to undertake a department for Avhich you had already made a special proA'ision. 3160-1. If such a professor had special assistance in entomology, he might practically leave the special study of entomology to his assistant, but in the theory of the subject ought not entomology to be taken into account together with zoology and inverte- brate anatomy ? — 1 hold the opinion (it may be a mistaken one, it is again one Avhich is much agi- tated), that the best Avay of arranging for these departmeijts is to ha\’e one chief, an eminent person, Avho has the power of appointing and arranging for assistance in several departments. I believe that that Avould be the best thing ; but against that, I am afraid that having reached a certain age mysell’ I shall have the Avhole race of young men rising in a tumult, because that is exactly Avhat they Avish to avoid ; they do not Avish to be placed in any sense as subordinates under a chief. That seems to me to be the general tendency of things, and I cannot help it. I bclicA'e that Avhat his Lordship has stated Avoidd be the best, viz., that there should be a Professor of Zoology and Invertebrate Anatomy, and that there should be under his directiorr such assistance as he requii’ed, of Avhich one of the most obvious would be ill the direction of entomology ; but I must say that I do not think it possible for ever so able a Professor of Zoology and Invertebrate Anatomy to carry on the Avork that is required of him in Oxfoial now. 3162. Supposing that you left the tAVo professorshijrs separate, and had a separate Professor in Entomology, would there be any reason for excluding entomology from the cognisance of the professor of the larger subject ? — No ; it might be Avell (only if I Avere so to state it I should be open to a charge in another direc- tion) to leave (c) Zoology and Invertehrate Anatomy, and then to have {d) Entomology. 3163. IIoAVCA-er, you recommend tAvo iieAv professor- ships, at all events, Avhich are {b\ and (c) ? — Yes. 3164. With the modification of (c) Avhich you luiA'e mentioned P — Yes. 3165. What other ncAv professorships AA;ould you recommend ? — Then {d), AA'hich is there put down as “ Physiology ” and “ Hygiene,” I should prefer' to call “ CornparatiA C National Health, including Phy siology,” if the Physiology is not to be distinct. 3166. Is not physiology too large and too scientific a subject to be included under the category of Com- parative National Health ? — I should not thirrk so under certain conditions, but the technical and pro- fessed physiologists Avould. What I mean by Com- parative National Health includes necessarily the most precise knoAvledge. It is a subject of the future, and includes the most precise kuoAvledge of Avhat is IINIVEUSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 191 iiieiint by physiology with special regard to all the races of man ; and the person who might somewhat object to that division might be the Professor of Human and Comparative Anatomy. By the term “ Hygiene,” used by the Hebdomadal Council, and which I call Comparative National Health, is really m(!ant the study of the conditions of Health of the people at large. But then the people at large, in our present notion of things, comprise different nations ami different races, and all the different circumstances in which they are placed, and therefore I consider that Comparative National Health is the larger subject of the two, and that which before long will be con- sidenal the only complete term to express the subject- matter. 3167. It is a question of nomenclature, after all ? — It is really a difference of nomenclature, but it is a difference with an intention ; because this is an entirely new subject, and I do want to mai'k on this occasion the conviction that I have that there is now beginning to loom upon us a question as big almost, in its way, as that of Darwin, namely, the general questions of health and physical and social conditions of all races, and that the investigations of biology and of com- parative pathology all have a bearing upon that. I am further moved in this because I am bound to say that there is just now, in consequence of the agitation in connexion with what is called vivisection in this country, a good deal of doubt as to how far this univ'ersity or any university had better push the sub- jeet of what is now called physiology. Twenty years ago this question Avould not have been raised, but now physiology, in the minds of the younger biolo- gists, means to a great extent experimental Physiology, and that means experiments upon animals, and on the propriety of these there is much difference of opinion. If I proposed that there should be a Pro- fessor of Physiology now, it would be supposed by many persons that I meant a special pi'ofessor in the direction of these experiments upon animals. I very much doubt whether a Professor of Hygiene such as the late Dr. Parkes, who was the ablest exponent of that subject in this country, would satisfy the require- ments of the younger physiologists; in fact I am sure he would not. 3168. (Mr. Bernard.) Do you propose that the same persons should or should not deal with the subject of Comparative National Health and with the science of physiology ? — Speaking as Professor of IVIedicine, I have put Comparative National Health first, including physiology, and if I had the organisa- tion of that chair I should appoint such a man as was Dr. Parkes, if he were to be found, and give him an assistant, that is to say, a junior, for whatever he thought to be requisite in the department of experi- mental physiology. Now I really do not see, looking at the thing in a practical way, what else can be done unless you have an independent Professor of Experi- mental Physiology. He must either be a pi-ofessor- in-chief or there must be a subordinate. We have already in Oxford two licensed institutions for the pur- pose of experiments upon auimals, two persons having a certificate from the Home Secretai-y, one. Professor liollcston, at the museum, and the other, Mr. Yule, at Magdalen College, and I suppose that xhere will be others. I think, therefore, that the organisation of this professorship requires a great deal of consideration. 3169. {Prof. Smith.) What I do not understand is, that the difficulties which you have stated so plainly attending tlie question of vivisection, should justify the crowding out, if I may so say, of such a large department of biology as physiology is admitted to be ? — I agree with you it is most undesirable. I think that in some way or other it must be provided for. There is very much in physiology, rightly esti- mated, which is not anatomy or morphology on the one hand, and is not experiment on the other. It has a vast literature ranging over anatomy, pathology, general psychology, and the mental properties of lower animals, and requires high and general culture. I should not like to express a formal opinion about the extent to which physiological studies should be carried OXFORD. here at once, and I think it would be very desirable, before I publicly commit myself to the details of that H- W Acland, point, that I should confer with my colleague in the ’ P M. department of anatomy. Professor Rolleston, because gy o^t i 8"7 I confess that in the present transitional state of public ’ opinion upon the subject I think it is attended with very great difficulties. I may illustrate that in this way. Last year I held strongly the opinion that it was undesirable that licenses should be given to small collegiate laboratories for the purpose of experiments upon animals. I was called upon to sign a certificate as President of the Medical Council, and after a great deal of deliberation I did sign it, but my opinion was distinctly that it would have been far more in the public interest that such laboratories should be con- ducted by the university at the university museum, in close relation with the Professors of Physics, of Chemistry, and of Physiology, and that we should not have small institutions in different parts of the town, in colleges apart from the general scientific plant of the university. 3170. {Mr. Bernard.) I see in the syllabus which Mr. Yule, of Magdalen, has furnished us with a long series of expei’iments upon the rabbit and the frog, and other animals ; some of those ai’e in the nature of exi)eriments on the animal during life, and some not, I think ? — Yes, that is the case of a collegiate labora- tory which is especially devoted to researches of this kind. In itself it is a very desirable thing, but it is another question whether it is desirable that there should be many such in Oxford, whether it would not be a great waste of funds and of scientific work, and whether it would not be far better done at the great nnivei-sity institution. About that question I feel very little doubt. 3171. {Chairman.) Is there any other professorship • in the biological department ? — Two ; viz., the Regius Professorship of Medicine (that is not a new one), and the Professorship of Comparative Pathology, of which I have already spoken, should replace the Clinical Professor. Lastly, there is the question of Grants. I hold strongly this opinion, that, if pos- sible, grants should be allowed to the Profe.ssor of Medicine, whom I should make chairman of a com- mittee of the biological department ad hoc, to be expended for any of the subjects to xvhich I have alluded, or any cognate subjects for the advancement of scientific medicine. Those grants, I think, would be of very grea,t service for the progress of scientific medicine. 3172. Do you think that the whole of this increase which you have mentioned, that is to say, these three additional professorships, are all pressing and imme- diate necessities ? — If we are to place the biological department in any condition which will be satisfactory to the scientific men of Europe, I think that is (piite the minimum. Many will blame me for not asking- more. 3173. {Prof. Smith.) YYu will notice that the Council only venture to ask for one additional pro- fessor ? — Yes. • 3174. If I understand it rightly you only ask for two additional chairs ; you propose to convert the clinical chair into a chair of comparative pathology? — I do. When that is put to me I think I am bound for the sake of my successor to say that I am very sorry that the Regius Professor should lose 200/. a year by that arrangement. The salary of the Pro- fessor of Medicine is now under 450/., and with the Clinical Professorship it is about 650/. I shall myself, however, be prepared, if the Commi,ssion make that change, at once to put them in the position of carry- ing it out. I am sorry to do so for my successor’s sake, because I think that with the functions which I have mentioned as attaching to the Regius Professor- ship the salary of 450/. is one which does not enable him to discharge those functions. The Ecclesiastical Regius Professorships are provided for quite other- wise. 3175. {Chairman.) The question of salary is a A a 4 192 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. H. IF. Acland, Esq., D. M. 30 Oct. 1877. ilistinct one ? — Yes; I tliink it much better in every way that the Clinical Professorship should be what I have stated, but I do not think it much better that the Regius Professor of INIedicine should be mulcted in that 200/. a y'ear. It is another question, but T thought it right to mention it, because it is virtually depriving my successor of 200/. a year which I possess and which my predecessor possessed before me, but I cannot help that. 3176. We should be glad to know what increase yon think is necessary to be made to the plant and material for instruction in biological subjects ? — I understand that your Lordship and the Commission .are about to visit the museum, and a ground plan of the whole will be laid before you, and then the pro- ])i ietv of what I am about to say will be obvious and easy to be seen. I think it is an c.bsolute necessity to jirovide an extension of the biological department of the museum. We have at present a Professor of Physiology of extraordinary powers and indefatigable industry. It must greatly depress his energies and the usefulness of the future of his life if he has not the opportunity of making an adequate museum of ethnology and anthropology in connexion with the future department which would be assigned to him, of human and comparative vertebrate anatomy. 3177. I' or that branch is the museum accommoda- tion at present deficient? — I do not say that more can- not be "ot into the museum than is there now; but O having myself had to construct a museum of compara- tive anatomy, during the 14 years that I was Reader in anatomy, and knowing all the details of the work, I can safely say that it cannot be advantageously con- ducted unless there is amjde space. I am quite sure that the most cannot be got for the nation out of Dr. Rolleston’s life unless very speedily a pro}>er museum for his (lei)artment is built simultaneously with the division of his chair. I venture to say this in his .absence, ami perhaps I may s.ay it more cmpatic.ally than he would venture to say it himself. I should not say so if it were not that I had for many years the duty of constructing the large anatomical collection to which I have alluded, and whi(di now, I am happy to .s.ay, is under his energetic and able management. 3178. What you say has regard to anthropology and to comparative anatomy? — I spe.ak speci.ally of anthro])ology because the comparative anatomy might remain in the court, but that is a matter of detail upon which 1 will not now exi)ress an o|)inion. 1 am not sure that the Professor of Geology shares my opinion, and therefore I speak with reserve, but I think that the .same remark must be made with refer- ence to the geological collection. I have very little doubt that very shoi'tly, and probably simultaneously with the authroj)ology huilding, it would be desirable to give more room to the geological collections. The chemical di^partment is being extended already. It is also well known that the de[)artmei:t of physics requires irumedi.ite extension. 3179. {Pi-nf. Sill it li.) You h.ave not referred to the de[)artments of zoology or hotany ? — 1 have something to .say about them. The most pressing need, as I have stated, is that ol‘ Human and Comparative Vertebrate Anatomy. The next most pre.ssiug need, as it seems to me, would be Geology. That of course would set free a good deal of space. Acting upon the principle which I am perhaps loo cautiously acting upon of keeping down the statement of the require- ments and w.ants as far as po.«sible, I think that for many years to come probably that would be sufficient. 3180. Y"ou could obtain by those two extensions to whi(di yon have referred space enough in the existing building for .any probable extension of zoology ? — I thiidv so for all that is likely to be wanted for many years to come. A great deal more m.ay be done with the sjiace in the court than has been done, and I should not mystdf put anything more than I have now stated in the category of ui'gent needs. In justifi- cation of having to ask even for so much as that, and in justification of my colleagues who are gone, such as Donkin, and B.aden-Powell, and Daubeny, and others, I can only s.ay that having limited ourselves 20 years ago to what we believed to be then absolutely necessary for supplying the instant and urgent needs of soutul national education, and being at that time called recklessly extrav.agant, I h.ave lived to bear anotlier charge, that of having constructed what we did construct in a limited way, with great indillerence to the real wants of scientific rese.arch, and with sin- gular ignorance as to the extent of its requirements, I am delighted to be between the two fires, because I think it shows that what was on the whole right was done. .3181. {Chair man.') You have noted for observ.ation botany as well as zoology ? — 1 have, and that is, I I am sorry to say, another disputed (piestiou. I have believed, and I still believe, that in the interest of the nation it was desir.able to found in Oxford, whibst we were constructing the scientific plant of the future, a place where all the departments of Nature should be studied with the adv.antage afforded by the mutu.al co- operation of the professors of .all the scientific dep.art- nients being pl.aced together. I believe in common with both the Hookers, the father and the son, and Dr. Daubeny, for many years the experienced Pro- fessor of Botany, who made the Botanical Gardens what they are, and with the existing professor. Pro- fessor Lawson, that it was desir.able that the Vegetable Biology should not be separated from all the other departments. I still hold the opinion that although the university has decided to maintain only at the present Botanical Gardens the department of hotany, it is desirable if [>ossible to have botany represented in the circle of sciences at the museum. The subject of the modern veget.able world, I need not say to so learned a body as this Commission, is intimately con- nected with the fossil flora as well as with the ex- isting flora. The [)i'ogress of vegetable physiology is connected with j)hysics and chemistry. The depart- ment of botany is, moreover, becoming so allied with .animal j)hysiology that in the secondary schools in this country the Manual of Biology which is now used by the young school m.asters who are taught at South Kensington treats biology as one subject, vegetable and animal included in one volume in progressive chapters, in an uninterrupted series. I am truly "■fieved that at this moment the University of Oxford has decided upon another course, thinking that it is desirable to separate for ever, by an interval of half a mile, these departmenls. I am convinced that some Laboratories and some exhibition of plants in con- nexion with the vegetidde world ought to exist in the scientific iirrangements of the place in relation to the other depiirtments, for reasons which I have thus briefly given. 3182. Are there botanical collections which might be put into the museum, the garden remaining where it is ? — I have always thought, if I may go so far into det.ail, that the existing gardens should be maintained just as they .are, the walls, the old trees, and p.arterres, but that the botanical laboratories for making experi- ments upon the physical conditions of plants, such as were m.adc by Hales and others, should be in imme- diate connexion with the museum, as your Lordship has suggested : that the garden, as such, might remain where it is, but that the working part should be vvith the allied subjects of natural history. 3183. Is there a hortus siccus at the Botanical Gardens '' — Yes, there is a very large one. 3184. Would you transfer that to the museum ? — I should thiidv so. I should think that that would he transferred probably as well as the microscopical and jihy.sical iqijiaratus. There is a great library at the museum, and I think that it is a waste of re- sources to have costly scientific appar.atus partly at a distance from the museum and partly at the museum itself : or else to have it in duplicate. I should like to add, as one furtiier statement in relation to the whole subject, that on the question of the origin of life, which has been so much disputed, all the re- searches of Tyndall, Bastiau. Pasteur, and all inquiries on the border land of the vegetable .and animal world, UNIVERSITY OF oxford COMMISSION': — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 193 require the combined resources of the representatives of eacli department. .318.5. {Mr. Bernard.) You would leave the bo- tanical warden where it is, but would you have another botanical garden at or near the museum ? — Had I tlio power of deciding 1 should leave tlie old botanical garden as it is, with its walls and its old trees. I should rebuild whatever required to be built anew, namely, the whole of the houses and lecture rooms, and all the a]>paratus adjoining the museum, as was agreed to and advocated by both the Hookers, Daubeny, and Lawson. The present Dr. Hooker and Mr. Lawson have lately changed their opinion upon the subject. But Mr. Lawson’s original arguments if made public would be unanswerable. We have voted to rebuild the houses at the old place. We knew in Dr. Daubeny’s lifetime, many years ago, that within the ne.xt 20 or 30 years the whole of the houses in the old gardens would have to be rebuilt, and waited till they must from age be restored, to raise the question. We have 80 acres adjoining the museum. To whatever extent the botanical depart- ment had hereafter been likely to extend, there was room for it to extend. My project w.as to erect what was required anew in botany, in relation to the rest of the scientific plant. 3186. Buildings .and houses only ? — Buildings and houses and laboratories. I feel exactly the same with regal’d to the experiments on animals, and the practical physiology. I think it a real misfortune that there is, as I believe, an admirable duplicate plant growing up in Magdalen College, and therefore not adjoining the large and far greater plant of the university at the museum. I think that it is an equal loss to the university and to the college which adopts that plan. But that is entering into a question of the relation of the colleges to the university, which perhaps I had better not go into. 3187. {Chairman.) I see that is the point which is next noted on the papei’ with which you have fur- nished me. Will you now st.ate your views as to the changes, if any, whicli you think desirable in the rela- tion as to teaching between the university and the colleges ? — In the departments of natural science (I Avill not speak of any of the other faculties or de- partments of the >uiiversity, because it might be im- jiertinent, and is certainly quite unnecessary), there is this peculiarity, that they are all expensive, they all require great plant, and they all require two kinds of persons, that is to say, older and experienced chiefs, and younger men who have their lives and their work before them. A following oT^oung men is an absolute necessity for all great teaclie^. Inter- course with experienced teachers and searchers for truth is no less important for young experts. I have always thought that the university should provide the great and expensive plant, and that it naturally would get the most eminent .and experienced persons in the several departments of hum.au knowledge of which we are speaking. The colleges might, with great convenience to the public, and with gi-eat atlvantage to themselves, supply what I should call the assistant professors, or lecturers or teachei’s, having perhaps small laboratories only for elementary teaching. But I hold strongly that it will ultimately be a great waste of money if the colleges do not loyally support the university in h.aving in Oxford one unsurpassed insti- tution for physical science. It is dangerous to speak positively about this point, but I siqqmse it will probably diminish the .amount of scientific work that can be done in Oxford. If we have a number of laboratories for the higher work in different subjects of u.atural science dispersed about the place, I think it must lead either to inferior results,' or to great waste of money, or both. 3188. There are existing arrangements in some colleges, and more particularly in Christ Church, I think, for scientific instruction, are there not ? — 30 years ago, when I was appointed Lee’s Leader in Anatomy, I had to begin to make, and m.ade, with very able assistance, a large collection in biology. Q G223. I7nder tlie advice of the present Dean of Christ Church, and with the concurrence of his Chapter, the whole of the results of that work were on purely public and national grounds transferred fi’om Christ Church to the university. There they have been under the superintendence of the university professor, exem- plifying exactly what I mean. Th.at collection cost Christ Church I'or some years sever.al hundred pounds a year, besides what I .spent on it. The dean and chapter at that time saw clearly that it was useless, and indeed simply a waste, for the eollege to h.ave a great institution of this kind if the university started a great institution of a similar kind, as it was bound to do. They therefore made the liberal proposition of transferring their whole plant to the university. I now feel the same concerning Magdalen. I believe, if I may be allowed to speak of an institution with which I have nothing to do, that Magdalen would act as much in its own interest, and far more in the public interest, if it were to furnish funds to institute a laboratory of experimental physiology by the side of the other biological dep.artments at the museum, than by beginning to developc it at Magdalen. For if they carry it on they will find that they will have to make i)laiit in duplicate ; they will have to get assistance in duplicate. After all they will have an institution which must be far less in extent, and prob.ably in the results of its work, than the great organization which, under all circumstances, must still exist in connexion with the university. They will lose the prestige of having one of their own dis- tinguished fellows incorporated in tlie scientific pro- fes.sorial staff of the university museum. 3189. {Prof. Smith.) Jf you established a l.abo- ratory of experimental physiology at the museum, which might be desirable or undesirable on other grounds, you w’ould have to provide the plant for it ? — Yes, somebody would. 3190. So that the question is between the .advantage of having it at the museum and having it at Magdalen College, is it not. There is no plant, if I understand you rightly, at the museum for experimental physi- ology f'— -I cannot quite say that, because the present professor has certain purely physiological apparatus, including what came from Christ Church. The pro- fessor, holding that high position which the Linacre Professor always will hold, cannot be quit of this subject, do what he will. In the medical examina- tions, even, we have various questions trenching on experimental physiology, as we have many affecting physiologic.al chemistry. 3191. If tlie Linacre Professor became a Professor of Human .and Comparative Anatomy, he would have no longer any except a very slight connexion with experimental physiology or with animal chemistry ?— Prolessor .Smith is a greater authority on this subject than I am ; but I should observe that j’ou cannot draw a line of demarcation between these subjects. It is very well to speak of a Professor of Vertebrate Anatomy severed absolutely from the physiological dep.artment, but .as a matter of fact he never can be so. We cannot divide the subjects by so hard a line. The ground of my s.aying before that M.agdalen College would profit more by its biological depart- ment being erected at the side of the museum, was not merely, as is sometimes supposed, a curious territorial notion, but it was with the view’ that this professor devoted to the ajiplication of physics and chemisti’y to living animals should have the great .advantage of being under the same roof with the Professor of Physics and Chemistry, and in constant communi- cation with them, as he woidd be as tlieir colleague, instead of being separated and left entirely to his own resources. It was for that reason that I said that you must either have your plant in duplicate, or have it infeiior. The same applies to a certain extent to the relation of Anatomy to Physics, Chemistiy, and Physiology, to which your Lordship refeis. The Philosophical Anatomist will never wholly discard these. 3192. {Chairman.) Docs what you have said about B b OXFORD, II. tv. At land. Esq., D.M. 30 Oct. 1877. 194 UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. M.ngclalen with reference to physiology apply equally to Christ Church with reference to chemistry ? — “ With reference to advanced chemistry, hut not witli ■ reference to elementary chemistry. I should think it 30 Oct. 1977. ^ waste, to have a second or third laboratory for advanced students when there was a great one at the museum with a distinguished professor at the head of it. What is done by Christ Church will probably be done by the other colleges also. I think that we run the risk of spending a great amount of money both in building and in salaries which will produce much less result than if the same money were ex- pended by mutual arrangement between the university and the colleges. 3193. 1 understand you to suggest that the colleges ought to take part in the general work by supplying assistants ? — I do. 3194. And that the plant should be all at the central institution ? — What I should call the advanced and research departments ; but I would not say that some of the elementary work for the students con- ducted by the young tutoi-s might not be conducted in the colleges. I have a love of freedom and in- dependence. I had both when at Christ Church. In those days the lequirements were comparatively simple. I am now seeking to suggest the best scheme for a more comjdex state of things, and for ensuring the least Avaste, for the work to be done is endless. 3195. Passing to any other requirements upon Avhich you have observations to offer, first of all as to a fund for special objects, you are probably aware that the Hebdomadal Council and the Dean of Christ Church have strongly recommended such a fund for certain objects Avhich are explained in this book ? — I have already alluded to that, so that I need not say more about it, excepting that the best means of advancing without Avaste of funds the A'arious objects Avhich we have in vieAv, 1 believe Avill be not to found ueAV chairs for life and in perpetuity, when it is doubtful Avhether the same chair Avill be required hereafter, but to place in the hands of com- petent committees or delegacies for special purposes the funds to be used from time to time in the best manner, either by giving them to a person for life for a particular subject, or by giving them for a particular kind of research and I’eport thereupon, or by giving them for a limited period of years. I think that that sufficiently explains Avhat I mean Avithout going into great detail. 1 am confident that that Avould be the best Avay of expending sums of money to bo put into our hands, and I look Avith great dread to an impulse being given to the foundation of a number of offices, it being extremely likely that a fcAV years hence it will be found not to have been a good application of money. 3196. {Prof. Smith.) Hoav Avould you deal Avith the two or three pi’ofessorships Avhich you propose to establish in this manner ? — I should so' deal Avith the Professorship of Ophthalmology and Avith the Pro- fessorship ot Comparative Pathology. I am quite clear that 1 shoukl do a national service if I Avere to appoint tAvo such persons, the best I could get in Europe, for these purposes for the next five years ; but as to appointing them for the next 25 years, that is another thing altogether. 1 should suppose that mutatis mutandis that would be the case in other depart- ments. — 3197. {{Mr. Bernard.) Would you apply it to the case of general and comparatiA'e pathology ? — If a person of great eminence Avould take it, and Avould only take it if he Avas appointed for life, I should do so. It is so large a subject, and is a thing Avhich is so certain to continue, in fact as long as Oxford lasts, that I should haA’e very little hesitation in that par- ticular case in founding a iieAV chair. 3198. {Prof. Smith.) Would you apply it to the Professorship of Zoology and Invertebiate Anatomy ? — I am not so sure about that, because zoology is one of the subjects which for various reasons is getting split up ; and I am by no means sure that a perpetual single Professorship of Zoology would be the best. 3199. {Chairman.) To pass to another point; do you think it is dcjsirable to provide residences in colleges for assistant professors and assistants generally ? — In the many years during Avhich I have observed the working of the university, there is nothing which I have looked upon as a Avorse piece of administration and less creditable to our judgment, I might even say our kindness, than to see that per- sons Avho are employed Avith very small salaries as assistants in various departments are obliged to lodge all about the toAvn. 3200. Are they generally single men ? — They are generally single men. I had a very admirable assis- tant in the department of hygiene. Dr. Pode, of Exeter College, to Avhom I gave sueh a salary as I could myself afford. I name him beeause alas ! he is dead. It seemed to me a very hard thing that we could not find Avith the many buildings Avhich Ave have, some means, at all events in the vacation, of taking care of such a man. We have several such persons, and their number will be inci’easing. I should therefore say that means ought to be taken if possible to provide collegiate I’esidences for those Avho are bond fide employed in constant Avork of this kind. Professor Odling always has snch assistants, and Sir Benjamin Brodie had before him ; they are ahvays admirable, able, and Avell-conducted men, and 1 think we ought to provide, if possible, some means of making their lives more comfortable than they can be in stray lodgings. In our science de 2 wtments these men Avork 10 or even more months in the year. 3201. Then you suggest that funds should be ob- tained for a School of Art. AVhat have you to say upon that point 1 — I mention this because I have officially had to do Avith it for some years. The col- lections connected Avith art in Oxford Avere, until a few years ago, in an unfortunate, not to say lamentable condition. They have been much im^n’oved, but the money Avhich is devoted to the department is far less than it seems to me that it should be. Still worse, the very valuable and irreifiaceable collection of Raft'aelle and Michael Angelo draAvings are now placed by the side of a builder’s yard. If the builder’s yard Avere to take fire the Avhole of that ^noperty Avould 2)robably be irretrievably lost to the Avorld. I therefore think that funds should be found for 2 >nrchasiug that adjoining pr 02 )erty and rendering it safe. I also think that the grant for Mr. Iluskin’s School of Art, and for the de 2 Aartment of art generally, should, if possible, be acUled to. I think that the attention of the university heretofore has not been sufficiently fo de 2 )artment. Then, secondly, I should like to be al- loAved to add that amongst the great wants of the uni- versity as a 2 >foce of national culture, has been the Avaut of collections illustrative of archaeology. Life-long intimacy Avith persons eminent in these subjects must be my excuse for S 2 )eaking 2 )ositively on these 2 Aoiuts. 3202. That subject is included in the recomenda- tionsofthe Hebdomadal Council, I think ? — Yes ; one further suggestion Avhich I have to make concerning it is this. There are in the art department noAV some exam2Jles Avhich liaA e been collected, in order to start such an archaeological museum. For instance, the Castellaui Collection and some other things Avhich do not 2 Jro 2 >erly belong to the de 2 )artment of modern art, adjoin Mr. Buskin’s School. It seems to me that a 2 fiace is urgently needed for these collections. Mr. NcAvtou, and others Avith Avhom for many years I have been in communication on this subject, feels it to be Avhat is called a crying AA^ant of the uniA^ersity. I entirely sym 2 )athise Avith him, and I cannot hel 2 J thinking that Ave haA^e a S23lendid 2dace extremely well adapted for this 2iurpose, Avhich it would be im- 250ssible 2irobably to get tAvo or three years hence, but Avhich may uoav be had. That is the old Rad- cliffe Library. The old Radcliffe Library Avas giA’en for the puiqmse of a reading room or other 2 ^urposes (those were the terms of the loan) of the Bodleian. It Avas the best reading room Avhich could be proAuded at that time, but public 02 )inion seems to have entirely decided that testhetic considerations make it impossible UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 195 to unite the two bniklings, .iikI that that which was originally intended, namely, the making it a hand Jide reading room attached to the Bodleian, cannot for those reasons be accomplished. 1 dissent from those aestlietic dogmas as mistaken and narrow. It being, however, settled that the Kadcliffe Library cannot be united to the Bodleian, I have come to the conclusion, after much consideration of this subject, that the best use of that dome would be to make it the Museum of Archicology, including all treasures of that kind. Such MSS., for instance, as the Bodleian Librarian might think fit might be ]>ut into the building. It is now being made not fire-proof in its upper part but fire-proof below. The upper part would be splendidly fitted for a museum of art and archasology. I mention this now because I was Chairman of the Committee of Curators of the Bodleian, that had to go into the whole question of the extension of the Bodleian and the buildings of the Bodleian, and we found great difliculties in 2 >ro voiding a proper reading room. I do not think that that question is yet solved, and before it is too late I would suggest to the consideration of the Commissioners, and of those whose business it is more than mine (although as a Bodleian Curator, ami OXFORD. as one of the Curators of the Art Department, it is my business, to some exbmt), whether the best use of the H.\V. Adand, Eadcliffe Library would not under all circumstances be > to make it an arclueological museum, and to provide (mT~T877 before it is too late a reading room for the Bodleian within its own jirecincts. 1 know that it can be done, and many persons believe that it would be better done in that way, than by continuing the use of the Eadcliffe. 3203. We shall see the librarian of the Bodleian, and also some gentlemen named by Convocation, to deliberate with us upon that subject. Do you wish, ajmrt from them, to make any particular suggestion upon the reconstruction of the Bodleian ? — I think not. I jmesume that they will hand in documents to the Commission, but I thought that when I was on the subject of art it would be desirable, having con- sidered this matter very much, that I should say this before it is too late. 3204. (jl/r. Bernard^ The Camera would reciuirc no considerable structural arrangements to make it a museum? — It would re, Avhich your Lordship may like to look at. “ The duty of the Hope Professor shall “ be to give jAublic lectures and jirivate instruction on “ zoology, with sjACcial reference to the Articulata, at “ such times as shall be prescribed or api>roved by the “ university, and also to suiAcriutend and arrange the “ Hope Collection of annulose animals, and to take “ charge of the natural history portion of the Hope “ Library. The Ho[)C Professor shall reside in the “ university for the term of eight months in every “ academical year between the 1st of October and the “ loth of July.” 3206. (Jl/r. Bernard.) Is the point to A\Tiich you are directing yourself, the question Avhether yourself or some one else should haAm the custody of particular collections in the museum ? — Yes. The amount of work Avhich is throAvn on my hands is so large, and the study of the vertebrated animals is so distinct from that of the inA’ertebrated ones, that it becomes necessary in my mind to ask for a iT'adershii) in Aertebrated zoology. It Avas for the jAurpose of shoAving hoAv it Avas that I got connected Avith the museum in a sjAccial manner. 3207. {Chairman.) The collections under your charge ai'e collections of the invertebi-atcd animals only Ave understand ? — Yes, articulata ; but it has been considered to run Avith the Avhole of the inverte- brata. 3208. Are those collections very large ? — They are very large. I have made out a list of the amount of our collections under my charge. 3209. {Prof. Smith.) The IIojAe collections include some vertebrated animals ? — They do. 3210. {Chairman.) As Hope Keeper have you the care of any collections of vertebrated animals ? — All Avhich belong to Mr. Hope, and AA'hich Mr. Hope gave. As being one of the curators of the Hope Collections under the Ho[Ae deed of gift, having been ajAjAointed Avhen Professor Phillips died to succeed him as one of the Hope Curators, 1 have charge of all the ITojac C ollections Avherever they are. 3211. And those collections include some vertebrata ? — Yes, there is the Bell Collection of tortoises, Avhich are vertebrata, as Avell as the Bell Collection of reptiles, and the Hope Collection of iishes. 3212. {Prof Smith.) Under you as curator and not as professor ? — Exactly. 3213. {Chairma7i.) You suggest that those collec- tions are sufficient to require all your attention ? — I Avill tell your Lordship and the Commissioners the conclusion that I have come to. I have long been convinced that our collection of articulated animals in the museum Avas the fourth in point of extent. There are the three national collections of Lomlon, Berlin, J. O. Westwood, Esq., M.A. B b 2 196 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COM511SSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. OXFORD. .7. O. Westwood, Esq., M.A. 3J Oct. 1877. and Paris, and then our collection hero is the next Inrgest. We have 2,500 drawers of insects, each of Avhich, to use a vulgar expression, I may say is choke full. If I were to arrange them in the open manner that they arrange them at the British INIuseum, I should have nearly as large a collection under my charge as they have at the British Museum, so that whenever 1 get a new specimen I have some trouble to know where to put it. We have at least 2,500 drawers of various sizes, some a foot and a half square. .3214. {Chairman.) Are those collections much visited by the students? — Yes, some portions of them arc visited almost every day by students and persons who come to name their specimens, and so forth. 321.5. I suppose that either you or some persons under your direction show them to all who come ? — Yes. Then be.sides the specimens in the drawers we have enough for nearly 500 or 600 more drawers in store boxes, and we have at least 3,500 bottles con- taining objects in spirits. Those .are under my special charge. Tho.se have tdl to be continually examined and looked at, and when new specimens come in they have to be carefully examined, often microscopically, and introduceil into their places. 3216. Do you give lectures ? — I give lectures oecasiotially ; I begin next Saturday. 3217. I see that you comp.are the .attendance re- quired by that deed from yourself of eight months in the year with what is required from other professors, which you st.ate is not above si.x months ? — No other professor to my knowledge is reeptired to be above six months in residence. 3218. Would the duties of your office be sufficiently •lischarged by less than eight months attendance ? — No, not if 12 months attendance were required. 3219. (Dr. Bcllami/.) There are, I suppose, fre- quently strangers coming in the vacation wishing to see the collection? — Yes; I have had people from Etissia, Americ.a, ress my great respect for the astronomical labours of the last two Radclill'e observers. I should then have said that in my judgment it would he a very great boon to the university and to the progress of astronomy therein : — {a.) If the Radcliffe trustees saw fit to place a modern first-class meridian circle in their observatory, and transfer their present smaller instrument to the university. Pro- vided always, that it should be considered as a portion of the Radoliife w’ork to observe for the university observa- tory occasionally a few faint “comparison stars” necessary for the cometary work of the latter. This Radcliffe meri- dian instrument would thus form an admirable supplemtnt or oomjianion to the university great equatoiial. I may observe that this transfer of an instrument on the part of the Radcliffe trustees would be correlative to an old transaction of some 30 years ago, when the university transferred a valuable object glass to the Radcliffe Obser- vatory, which had been jiresented to the former by Sir James South ; there being at that time no university observatory in existence. (/3.) This boon to the university observatory would be still further enhanced, if the Radcliffe trustees see fit that the Savilian Professor may officially enjoy (as was in fact suggested) the use of any such books in the superb library of their observatory as are not in the immediate use of the Radcliffe observer. Much expense would thus be saved to the university in the purchase of duplicates, and a most pressing want of the Savilian Professor would be supplied. The boon has already been kindly accorded to a consider- able extent as a personal favour. Lastly. The professor was asked as to the possibility of the suggested astronomical scholars studying other branches of physical science while engaged for a part of their time at the observatory. The reply that they eould obtain instruction in physical science at the observatory applied, in the professor’s own mind, solely to the use and theory of the sj)ectroscope and to such subjects as radiant heat from the moon, &c. He thinks that in most cases it would be very desirable for such astronomical scholars (if they exist) to attend also in the laboratories of other scientific professors. They would also have good oppor- tunities at the observatory for im])roving tlieir mathematical knowledge. (Signed) C. Pritchard. T. H. Green, Esquiro, M.A. (Fellow of Balliol College), examined. 3306. {Chairman.) Y^ou are, I believe, a fellow and tutor of Balliol ? — I am, or rather, I was. I am a fellow and leeturer now. I am not properly speaking a tutor. 3307. We understand that you desire to make some suggestions to the Commission ? — The suggestions which I propose to ofier to the Commissioners relate to certain changes in the mode of examination for fellowships, and to the institution of university reader- ships, as tending to promote the attainment of a higher standard of learning, and the pursuit of more thorough impiiry in subjects whicii are not of great popular interest than is to be found among us at present. During the last 15 years I have been engaged more or less in the preparation of young men for the School of Literae IIumaiiiore.s, and have UNIVERSITY or OXFORD COMMISSION : — AIINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 201 naturally watched with interest tlie course afterwards taken by those who have distinguished themselves in it. The observations which I beg to offer are founded on this ex[)erience. The subjects of examination in this school niay be roughly divided under three heads, classical scholarship, ancient history', and mental and moral philosophy. I make no complaint as to this combination. Up to the time of their final examina- tion the course of reading and instruction which the candidates for honours go through seems to me on the whole satisfactory. So far as it is otherwise, the faults in it are either of a kind incidental to any system under which men of the most different degrees of ability have to be prepared for the same examina- tion, or are due to the want of good text hooks on some of the subjects examined in. It is when the final examination is over that the bad effect of our present system on our better students begins to appear. The “ honour men ” are seldom through the final school till the age of 23, one if not two years later than it is desirable they should he ; and then it is high time, if ever they are to produce anything considerable in philology, ancient history, or philosophy, that they should concentrate their attention on some one of these subjects, or even on some special l)ranch of one of them. At present there is not only no encouragement to them to do so, there is a strong temptation to them to do otherwise. Their great object is naturally to obtain a fellowshij), and it cannot be said that con- centration upon any branch of inquiry is likely to contribute to success in a fellowship examination, as at present conducted. I am not speaking of fellow- ships given for merit in mathematics, natural science, or modern history, but only of those which are osten- sibly given for merit in the subjects of the Literas Humaniores School. The examination for these commonly covers the same range of subjects as that school, but the questions set upon these are of a wider and less exact kind, and the answers to them are looked over by men who have probably not been attending for some time to most of the topics on which the questions are set. No opportunity is given for treating any question more fully than can be done in half an hour or an hour, except the question set for an essay which is commonly on some subject of general interest. Success in such an examination naturally falls to the man of most literary skill, who can bring his mind to bear most promptly and neatly on any subject that may be set Itefore him. Discursive reading, if accompanied by'^ practice in writing, is the best preparation for it. Good scholarship in that sense in which it does not imply much learning in the literature of antiquity, is also likely to find recognition in it. But a student who has been spending the year previous to the examination in working at some branch of philo- logical or antiquarian learning, or in mastering the system of one of the great writers on philosophy^ ancient or modern, has scarcely a chance of showing the result of his work, and meanwhile is pretty sure to have lost some of that intellectual mobility wdiich is required for the successful handling of seven or eight miscellaneous (questions in a space of three hours. The consequence is that the kind of reading to which a young man is drawn by ambition for a fellowship, is distinctly not that which will prepare him best either for a life of study or for ultimate eminence as a teacher after he has won the fellowship. Fellowships no doubt have a value, which I should he the last to disparage, as enabling men, who would not otherwise have the means of doing so, to go through the long training necessary for the highest success in medicine or at the bar ; and as a test of cajracity for professional success the present mode of examination for them may be quite satisfactory', though the same purpose might probably' be as well served by an examination in special studies preparatory to the pro- fessions mentioned. There is another function, how- ever, which the fellow'ships ought certainly to serve. It is only through them that a man without money of his own can find an opportunity for the continuous Q 6223i pursuit of learning, and the university should look to them as a nursery of men who may become learned teachers in the future. Hitherto they have failed to serve this purpose as they ought, and they have so failed chiefly because the mode of election to them has tended to discourage men from concentrated study at a period of life when it is most essential. After a year or two of diffused reading w'e will siq>pose the candidate for a fellowship to he successful. If, not- withstanding many deterrent examples, he resolves to try a university life, his college will almost imme- diately put him on to teach. Some years ago this would have meant, and in most colleges would still mean, that he must spend several hours a day in lectures to passmen, which could afford no sort of cultivation to his own mind. In some colleges this would no longer be the case. In them he would have to deal chiefly with honourmen, and his work with them would he of a kind at first very stimulating, but also very distracting. He will have to give lectures on two or three diflerent subjects — thanks to the better division of labour lately introduced, on fewer than formerly ; and he will also he generally respon- sible for ])reparing his pupils for examination. In the preparation of lectures he will find more to con- centrate his mind on definite subjects than he has done before, and this will be so far a gain. But on the other hand the subjects on which he has to lecture are naturally detennined according to the educational wants of his college, without consideration of the course which it would be best for him to pursue with a view to the ultimate interests of learning in the university. There is no body of university' teachers, at any rate on those subjects of the Literm Hu- maniores School, of w hich I am now speaking, possess- ing any recognised authority, w'ho might be con- sulted as to the course of study and teaching w hich it would be best for a newdy-elected fellow to pursue in consideration at once of his own capacity and of academical retjuirements. Hence there is no check, hut such as his own power of passive resistance may supply, upon the kind of w'ork which his college may' imj)ose on him either when he first enters the tutorial body, or afterwards wdien the withdrawal of some other tutor necessitates a change in the educational arrangements of the college. The consequence is that there is much less chance that his lectures will lead to the production of writings of permanent value than there would be under a better organisation of teaching. At the same time that part of his work, in some respects the most important for his pupils, w'hich con- sists in looking over their exercises and answers to questions on a great variety of subjects, operates as a serious distraction. If it w'ere merely that he had to give catechetical instruction on the subjects on which he lectures, there would be nothing to complain of. But it commonly happens that various and often ill- suited to him as are the subjects on which he has to lecture, those on which he has to receive essays from his pupils, and to question and to be questioned, are much more vaiious. If he is to do this sort of work effectively', he has to keep his mind ready equipped on a great number of j)oints in a way which almost prevents the concentration of thought necessary fi.r the production of a valuable book. The consequence is that our teacher, having been behindhand in special study', owing to the operation of the fellowship system, at the age of 25, is only likely' at the age of 3j to he relatively more behindhand still. He will be going on with the old work, but may probably have lost interest in it. There will be that want ot life about his lectures which always ciiaracterises the repetition of old matter if unaccompanied by fresh acquisition. This I believe to be the true account of the phenomenon so often noticed in Oxfoid, that the tutor.s after a certain number of years are apt to fall into di.‘re|)utc with the undergraduates, who desert them, so far as discipline allows, for the young lecturers just beginning their work. If a college tutor, however, has borne up against these adverse influences, and has really been working for Gc vOXFORD. F. /J. Green, Esq., M.A. 30 Oct. 1877. 202 UNIVERSITT OF OXFORD COMMISSION: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. T. H. Green, Esq., M.A. 30 Oct. 1877.] himself so as to be (lualified to write, if leisure were "iven him, on one of those more or less recon- elite subjects, for the cultivation of which it is the special business of an university to provide, what has he to look forward to? After 10 years (let us say) of college work, he finds that he has no longer the elasticity of mind needed for the most effective preparation of young men for examination, and that the necessity of adapting liis lectures to the schools prevents him either from breaking new ground or from pursuing any subject thoroughly in them. There is this much of his college work which his juniors would do more effectively than he can now do it, and to be relieved of some part of it is the condi- tion of his doing what he has it in him to do, as a writer on the subjects to which he has been applying himself. At present, however, unless he is a clergy- man, or has some private means, he has no chance of deliverance. lie could only win the leisure which he deseives and would turn to account by getting a professorship, but the chances arc that no professor- ship in his subject will fall vacant in time to serve his turn, nor if it should fall, can he at all reckon on the considerations that will determine the appoint- ment to it. Having described the evil of the present state of things as it atfects the interests of learning and research, I would venture to suggest some changes which it woidd be within the powers of tlie Commission to make, and which would tend to remedy it. To begin with the fellowship sy'stem : Provision should be made as far as possible for election to a fixeil number of fellowships every year, and for their regular apportionment to the subjects recognised in tlie different schools of the university. Much evil lias been caused during the last few years by the uncertainity as to the number of fellowships likely to be filled. Young men, who from the experience of pre\ ions years were fairly entitled to look tor success in a fellowship examination, have lost a great deal of valuable time in waiting for them, and in many cases have been finally disappointed. In the case of those assigned to tlie subjects of the Literm Humaniorcs School (and from experience as an examiner in this school, I should say that seven or eight a year might well be so bestowed), the examination should always be directed to ascertain special merit in some one of those subjects; in philology, or ancient literature and history, or mental philosophy, as the case may be ; and security should be taken for its being conducted by persons adequately skilled in the special subject for which it is given. Candidates for a fellowship so given, in order to have prospect of success, would generally need at least a year of special study after passing the final school, and it should be a great part of the business of the professors to lecture to men in this position. In order to help tliem to maintain themselves during this extra year of study, a change in the scholarship systempnay be suggested. In most colleges scholarships are now tenable for five years. This period might with advantage be I’cdiiced to four or even three years, and a proportionate number of scholarships established which should be competed for b}" men of not less than three years standing, and tenable for not less than two years. Under such an arrangement the pick of the ordinary scholars would find means for almost unbroken study during the year or year and a half intervening between the final ex- amination and the time at which they might be reason- ably expected to obtain a fellowsltij). In regard to the mechanism by which the due apportionment of the fellowships to special subjects of study nwy best be secured I feel very uncertain. The most obvious plan would be to transfer all fellowships, over and above those which the colleges require for educa- tional purposes, to the university, and to ajrpoint university boards for regulating the elections to them. This, however, would be a stronger inroad on the college sy'stem than is perhaps likely to be adopted. It is to be hoped that the same end might be obtained in another way. VV'e have already Boards of Studies. A joint board might be established by delegation from each of these which shoidd then arrange with each college in detail, according to a general plan, what should be the subjects to which the fellowships from time to time falling vacant in the college should be given. In the event of irreconcileable disagree- ment between the college and the board, reference might be made to the “ universities committee.” 3308. Considerable notice would be required be- forehand, would it not, that the students might prepare themselves in particular subjects ? — Un- doubtetlly. I think that there should be a programme for two or three years to come. 3309. {Prof. Smith.) Do yum think that it would be possible to arrange beforehand that in a particular year two or three fellowships should be competed for in a particular subject? — I am supposing a system in which all fellowships would be terminable, so that you could tell appro.ximately what fellowships would fall in. If due provision were made in the statutes of each college, not merely for the apjrortionment of its fellow- ships to the subjects of different schools, but for the recognition of sj^ecial merit in the different branches of the Litenn Humaniores School, the colleges could no doubt be trusted to take proper measures for carry- ing out such a piovision. As it is, when a fellowship is given for mathematics or modern history, only mathematicians and historians are expected to pro- nounce on the merits of the candidates. It is only when, according to present custom, a fellowship is given for the subjects of the Liter® Humaniorcs School in general that we find men who have paid no attention for years (if ever) to some one of the subjects included in it, such as mental philosophy, setting and looking over a paper upon it. If it were provided that fellowships should no longer be given for these subjects in the lump, but that the examina- tion should in each case be directed to elicit special merit in some one of them, modesty would forbid any but projrerly qualified persons from takitig part in it. Changes of this kind would tend to prevent the dissipation of mind which the present system of examination for the greater part of our fellowships tends to produce. The young fellow who devoted himself to academical life, would enter on his college work with a definite line of study marked out for him and fairly equipped for pursuing it. A certain amount of distraction would be necessarily involv'ed in the educational work which his college would propei ly require of him, but wit'i the solid founda- tion he would have laid this would do him no great harm, if there were reasonable certainty that proved capacity for teaching and writing upon the more diliicult jiarts of his subject would earn him more leisure before it was too late. In order to give this certainty^ a considerable number of readerships should be established. This, I believe, would do more for the promotion at once of thorough study and good teaching in the university than a lai'ge addition to the professoriate. It is, indeed, tlie condition of the professoriate being well siqiplied, for unless some means is found of giving betimes to those of whom good professors might ultimately be made some relief from the pressure of tutorial work and some stimulus to the preparation of higher lectures than those needed to get men ready for the schools, they will either go oft' to ('(her lines of life or before the time comes for appointment to a professorship will pro’oably have lost much of the capacity for filling it well. The idea of the readership, then, would be that it should fall generally, though not nnifonnly t on some subjects it might be found that readers could be best introduced from without), to a college tutor or lecturer of some eight or ten years standing, who liad shown that he could write as well as teach on some important subject of academical study. If tenable with a college folbwship, its value need not be more than 400/. a year. Its purpose would be to give its holder ojrportunity' for lecturing on higlier subjects and in a more thorough way than he could do as a college tutor, bound to look chielly to the preparation of his pupils for the schools. I would UNIVEKSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 203 not, however, rcf|uire liim altogether to seijarate Iiim- selffrom college work. It would depend chiefly on the subject of the readership whether or no he would find it expedient to do so. His relations would not be specially with the undergraduates of any one college, but with the picked men of the university who were interested in the subject on which lie lectured. A considerable part of his class would probably he men who had passed the final school and were reading for fellowships. This at any rate would be the case, if fellowships were awarded in the manner suggested above. Besides lecturing, he would receive exercises from the men in his class, would discuss difficult points with them, or direct them to the books which they should read. He would, in short, do for his class what a college tutor does for his [lupils, but his class would be picked men, and his business would not be to prepare them for examination but to help them forward in the subject which he and they would be jointly studying. It is held by some, I believe, that such readerships woidd be useless, since the work of preparing young men for their examinations is best discharged by college tutors, and profitable knowledge on any subject is better obtained from books than from the set discoui'ses of professors and readers. These premises may readily be admitted, but not the conclusion drawn from them. It is the business of the university not merely to test such attainment of knowledge as can be tested by examination, but to assist in its advancement. If we confine ourselves to the work of helping undergraduates to get up certain books and subjects, and of testing the result by examination, the spirit of knowledge will soon die out among us. As it is, our better students always read with a higher object than that of doing well in an examination and learn much more than they can ever show in an examination. It is in helping such men that the reader would find his work. His lectures, indeed, should generally be connected with the subjects of examinations in the schools but should be directed to making his pupils steady them for their own sake and in a different spirit from that which the prospect of an examination is apt to breed. They will not be a substitute for, but a supplement to, the reading of b.)ok.s, and will themselves be a book in making. I need not say anything with reference to the apportionment of readerships to the different subjecis ol' (he Litene Humaniores School. On this point I (luite agree with the recommendations of the Board of Studies, but on each subject I should plead for the establishment of a somewhat larger number of readerships than they propose. In particular I would urge the im))ortiince of providing for a more thorough teaching of philo.'opliical subjects than we have hitherto had in the university. I do not wish the number of undergraduates who pay some attention to these subjects to be increased, on the contrary I should not object to its being diminished. But on such subjects of all others it is important that the teaching should not be of a haphazard an I fragmentary kind, but should be thmough and come from mature students. Hitherto it has practically been very much in the hands of tlie younger college tutors, who, in most cases, have had little leisure for continuous study. They prepare the undergraduates very efficieiitly for doing the papers on philosophy set in the schools, but they would themselves, I think, admit that for initiating such a study of philosophical questions as is likely to bear permanent fruit and still more for directing those who are disposed to continue the study after they have passed the schools, they have simply not time. Nor has the want which the college tutors necessarily failed to supply been hitheifio supplied from any other quarter. Till the last year or two there had been, so far as I know, no systematic lecturing in Oxford on any philosophical subject except occasionally on morals, nor on any philo- sophical books except those treatises of Plato and Aristotle which aie taken up for the final school. y(!t my own recent experience convinces me that if a supply of more thorough teaching in philosophy were forthcoming, it would be found that there was a demand for it ; that among the graduates, as well as among the more aspiring undergraduates, the teacher would find an apt audience. In making these remarks I have not been forgetful that we have already three professors in philosophy, and for that reason have not suggested any addition to their number. But I submit that they cannot supply the teaching that is required in the subject with- out the aid of reader.^, and that the institution of readers is the condition of our getting, as a rule, good professors. As to ttie mode of apjtointing the readers, I should merely suggest, that the election in each case should be iti the hands of a small number of persons, not exceeding five, selected for the puiqtose on the occurrence of a vacancy either by tne Hebdomadal Council or by a s[)ecial body composed of delegates from each college. 3310. {Chairman.) Would readers according to your plan be left to choose their own subjects, or would there be any scheme of organising the .system of instruction by readers? — I should propose that the readers and professors in each department, who would form a sort of faculty', should meet and arrange amongst themselves for the distribution of the work. I should rather deprecate any very strict assign- ment of each readership to one department of a sid)- ject. I would not subdivide the subjects of the readerships very greatly. 3311. Would you rely, under the system that you recommend, most upon the new rules proposed to be made as to fellowships for the supply of students attending those readers ; that is to say, do y'ou expect that they would be attended largely by graduate students looking forward to fellow.ships, or do you ex- pect that they would be attended largely by undergra- duates ? — I should not expect them to be very largely attended by undergraduates. As it is, under the scheme of examination in Literte Humaniores, certain special subjects are authorised to be taken up in which the colleges are generally unable to provide lecture.^, and I should suppose that the reader would generally be lecturing on these subjects, and that his class would consist partly of bachelors reading for fellowships, and partly of undergraduates proposing to take up one of these special subjects, and also of others who might be interested in this special sub- ject, but not perhaps proposing to be examined in it in the schools. 3312. We have been told that these special subjects are not so largely taken up as it was expected they might be when that scheme was published ? — They are very little taken up. 3313. Uo y'oti think that if fellowships were appro- priated more or less to special subjects that would give a stimulus probably even to undergraduates to study them and take them up ? — I think it would do something ; but I look more for the cultivation of special studies, to the better appropriation of fellow- ships to subjects of special study, and to reading after the final examination is over. 3314'. Are you favourable to maintaining the pre- sent system of coanbined college instruction for honour students generally rather than to transferring it to university readers ? — I should be quite in fiivour of continuing the present system of combined college instruction, but I do not think that it at all furnishes a substitute for the work which 1 wish should be done by readers. The primary business of the college teachers would be always to lecture with a view to the examinations. 3315. And that you would leave in the hands of the college teachers or the combined college teachers ? — Yes, but I do not wish altogether to exclude the notion of the readers lecturing on the subjects recog- nised in the schools. I think the reader would be ill-advised to take for his subject one of the regular books prescribed for examination in the final school. I had better speak in the concrete. As it is in the final examination in Literm Humaniores, for instance, there arc set general papers in moral philo- Cc 2 OXFORD. T. H. Green, Esq., M.A. 30 Oct. 1877. 204 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. T. H. Green, Esq., M.A. 30 Oot. 1877. sophy and in logic (under the term logic a good many subjects are included) ; and there is also a general paper in history. I should expect the reader to give lectures which would be useful to men pre- paring for the final examination in those subjects, though he would not, if ho were wise, adapt liis lectures specially to the schools; hit the men who took an interest in their work would go to him not with a view of getting marks in the examination so much as with the view of getting a better education out of the subjects on which they u ere reading. 3316. Would you be favourable to the union of the office of college tutor with the office of reader? — I should wish the office of reader to be tenable, if such things came to exist, wdth a tutorial fellowship. I am rather thinking of the arrangement which we have at Bulliol now, where there are certain tutorial fellowships as distinct from the terminable fellowships. 1 should like the reader, supposing he was already a tutorial fellow of a college, to continue to hold his tutorial fellowship. 1 do not know that I would bind him by any hard and fast line, but I should like him to cease to give what I should call lectures for the schools. It would really depend upon what sort of arrangements his college would be likely to make with him. I should suppose that it would be glad tor him to continue to hold his tutoral fellowship without making him responsible for the preparation of students for the schools. 3317. By a tutorial fellowship you mean a fellow- ship held ])ermanently on condition of service? — Yes, on condition of some service. 3318. The service which you would particularly contemplate is service in the office ot reader ? — Yes. I should like him to continue to take part in the general direction and supervision of the college. 3319. You are probably aware that the Hebdomadal Council in their recommendations as to university readers have expressed an opinion that it is desirable that a class of readers should be established in addi- tion to professors, and that such rcadershi|)s should be tenable with college tutorships and lectureships ; that seems to contemplate their teaching as tutors or lecturers wdthiii the college ; what is your opinion upon that? — I would rather not prohibit the reader from holding a college lectureship, but I must say that I think he would generally in the interest of his sub- ject and in his owm interest decline to do so. 3320. It would have a tendency, I suppose, to defeat that jaart of your object which aims at keep- ing clear of the influence of examinations ? — Yes, it would very much. 3321. {Prof. Smi/h.) Does it not occur to you that if a readership was in the ordinary case attainable by an eminent college tutor after not more tlian eight or ten years of service in college work you would soon have all the places filled up that you had to give, and that there would be no sufficient succession ? — In the first place, I should have rather a high standard of qualification for the readerships. I used the words that a man should have shown iumself able to write as w'ell as to teach, and I think it might be desirable to make the readerships terminable. I should hope that the reader would in a certain time become a professor, and that so the office would become vacant. 3322. The difficulty in all these cases is to supply a graduated system of promotion, is it not ? — It un- doubtedly is so. 3323. It struck me that you were making the promotion too early at the commencement, and that consequently it might come to be too slow afterwards ? — I do not pledge myself to the date of 8 or 10 years. It might be better to say 12 or 15 years, but I have not considered that thoroughly. 3324. It would not be contrary to your proposal, would it, if it were arranged that some of the fellow- ships should be accessible, as they are now, to excellence in a combined examination including all the three branches of the Litene Humaniores School ? — I should not wish to exclude that. I am not quite clear myself that that would be in any case desirable, but I do not wish in any way to commit myself against that view. .3325. If you think of the case of men who are preparing for the professions, are you clear that it would be better that they should coniine their atten- tion to one of the three branches of the Literm 1 lumaniores School ? — In the case of a man who hud passed the Literm Humaniores School, as it is at present constituted with a great mixture of subjects, supposing he were going to the Bar, it is a ])art of my plan that he should he provided with a scholarship which should carry him on for a year and a half heyond the time of his passing the schools ; I should think it better for him to get his fellowship say by special merit in jurisprudence, or some subject of that kind which related to his profession, and by studying which thoroughly he would lay a good foundation for what might be called the higher pursuit of his profession. 3326. {Chainnan.) It would be part of the effect of your plan to delay the time at which the fellowship would be obtained, would it not ? — 1 did not suggest any plan for securing that, but I should certainly wish that the final examination were passed at a rather earlier age. As it has been lately, certainly, almost everyone has had to wait something like a year for a fellowship after the final examination, so that I think the fellowship is hardly ever obtained until the age of 24. What I should wish would he that the final examination should he passed not later than at the age of 22, so that the man would get his fellow- ship as young as he does at present. 3327. An opinion has been expressed that it is desirable that the numher of prize fellowships, what- ever may be the limitation of their tenure, should not be less than it is at present, or rather that it should be still greater. Is that your opinion ? — It is rather difficult to say what “at present” would moan, because during the last year or two there have been hardly any lay fellowships in the subjects of the Literaj Humaniores School. I should not wish for any diminution in the number of what one may call prize fellowships as compared with the number that used to fall vacant three or four years ago. On the contrary I would diminish their value, keeping them down to 200/. a year and providing for their falling vacant pretly regularly. 3323. (Mr. Bernard.) By prize fellowships are meant fellowships which do not make it incumbent upon the holder to apply himself to work in Oxford ? — Quite so. 3329. You refer to those in saying that you would not wish their number diminished ? — I should not wish their number diminished, but I should wish the examination for at any^ rate a large number of these prize fellowships to be more specialised than it is at present. 3330. (Chairman.) Your principle of the special appropriation of fellowships you think would be equally applicable to those which are sought as givin" means of entrance into the different learned profes- sions ? — Yes, it would remain for a man to decide, when he had got one, whether he would look to the university life or go to one of the professions. 3331. Your view is not the promotion of research and the advancement of knowledge in the special subject which the man takes up ? — I think the two things are compatible. I had in view primarily the promotion of learning in the particular subject to which the fellowship was assigned, but I think you may combine that perfectly well with the object of preparing men for their professions. 3332. (Sir M. IV. Ridley.) I understand you to say that you would devote seven or eight fellowships a year to the three branches of the Literae Humaniores School, but that you would not touch the fellowships generally; that you would leave some fellowships to be given for general knowledge in Literae Humaniores. Do you not see some difficulty in leaving those two classes of fellowships? — My own wish would be to assign them all to some special branch of the Liter® UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 205 riuinaiiiores. All those that were f,nven for the subjects of the Literas llumaniores Scliool at all I woiihl give specially for some one branch, hut I would not exclude examination in other branches. I would always have an essay set on some general subject, bet I would have the main drift and purport of the exami- nation to ascertain merit in the particular subject. 3.333. {Prof. Smith.) At jjresent the more distin- guished men who leave Oxford to enter the [)rofessions, and who obtain fellowships, have obtained them as a rule in the general subjects of the Literre llumaniores School, have they not ? — Yes. 3334. Your plan would substitute for that, would it not, a class of men, who if they were going to the bar for instance, would prepare themselves for a special examination in jurisprudence ? — Yes. 3335. Would not the effect of that be to induce such men to abandon the general subjects of the Litera) Humaniores School at a rather earlier period, and to throw themselves upon the special study of jurisprudence ? — I think that it would probably induce them to abandon the general subjects of the Literac Humaniores School at rather an earlier age by a year and a half or two years than they do at present. 3336. Would it not call them away altogether from the Liter;e Humaniores School ? — I think you might meet that difficulty by requiring them to have obtained certain honours in the Litera; Humaniores School as a condition to their standing for a fellowship, so as to prevent their going off upon the special subject too early. 3337. ( Chairman.) That is to say, you would take the proficiency in other subjects as ascertained by their degree in the Literm Humaniores School, and you would limit the fellowship examination to something special ? — Y'"es. 3338. {Mr. Bernard.) I did not understand you to say that you would wish to see the proportion of fellowships given for jurisprudence increased, but rather that a man should be examined for a fellowship in some special subject in ihe School of Literm Humaniores, or in the School of Jurisprudence, or in the School of History, as the case might be ? — Yes. All I meant was to meet the objection that if a man had to wait a year and a half before an examination for his fellowship it Avould throw him back very much in his profession. That objection might be met by assigning certain fellowships as prizes for studies pre- paratory to the bar, or preparatory to medicine. 3339. {Prof. Smith.) We gather that you have yourself given courses of lectures of the kind to which you have been referring as being likely to be given by university readers ? — 1 have attempted to do so, specially for the last year and a half. 3340. Would you let us know what number of students you have had in your audience ? — I think it has ranged from about 10 to about 35. I do not think I have ever kept up a class of 35 ; I have began with 35, but there is always a certain number who drop off. 3341. {Chairman.) Has that attendance been in the most absolute sense spontaneous, or has it been recommended by the tutors or the heads of the colleges ? — So far as I know, it has been spontaneous. The attendance has been almost to the amount of one half composed of bachelors of arts. 3342. {Mr. Bernard.) Would the reader be better off in point of emolument than the more successful of the intercollegiate lecturers from whose ranks I sup- pose he would be chosen ? — I think not. 1 should contemplate an income for the reader altogether, say of certainly not more than 650/,, 400/. plus a tutorial fellowship, say of 250/. 3343. The inducement to a man to desire to become a reader would be partly that he would be relieved from the kind of work which he would have had to do as a collegi ate or intercollegiate lecturer ? — Certainly, and unless he is a man upon whom that motive vvould operate, I should not wish him to have a readership. 3344. I think you saiid that you contemplated the tenure of a readei'ship being terminable ? — -Terminable with re-eligibility. I think that the competition for those i-eaderships would be limited and limited in a desirable way, by the fact that in respect of money they would not be more valuable than the college tutorships. 3345. I pi'esume that if the reader could be re- elected he generally would be ? — Y'^es. 3316. Unless that were the case he would be liable, would he not, to find himself without emolument at a time of life when it would be perhaps most necessary to him ? — Yes, but I think the condition that the readership should be terminable, though he might generally presume on the chance of his being re- elected, would keep him up to his work. 3347. For further advancement he would have only to look to the chance of succeeding to a professorship ? — Certainly. 3348. {Sir J/. W. Bidley.) Are all the ordinary fellowships at Balliol terminable ? — All the ordinary fellowships are terminable. 3319. And then upon a fellow being made a tutor his fellowship becomes tenable as long as he is a tutor? — Yes, it becomes tenable for 20 years, with the opportunity of being re-elected for another 10 years, 1 think. 3350. Is there any limitation of the amount ; are the fello'vships fixed at a certain sum, or do you divide the money ? — At present there is no limitation of that kind at Balliol. 3351. {Chairman.) Y'^our suggestion was that the sum of 200/. should be fixed for prize fellowships ? — I said that I thought that would be sufficient. 3352. {Mr. Bernard.) But you would always wish to have a certain number of fellowships that might be held with readerships, as I understand you ? — The fellowships that should be tenable with readerships should not be quickly terminable fellowships at any rate. 3353. {Chairman.) I suppose that would be termi- nable if the readership were terminated ? — Yes, cer- tainly ; they would be only tenable on the condition of the readership. 3354. {Sir M. IV. Ridley.) You do not think that a man who was made a reader and who had his fellow- ship besides would be by that time entitled to a fellowship for life when his readership dropped ; you think that in case of ill-health or anything of the kind all his emoluments should cease at once ? — It might be provided, supposing the colleges established pension schemes, as I su|)pose they will probably have to do, that on a fellow becoming a reader he should continue his claim for a pension from the college ; that his tenure of the readership should not void his claim for a pension. The witness withdrew. The Reverend Herbert Salwek, M.A., (Senior Student and Censor of Christ Church,) examined. 3355. {Chairman.) You were so good as to say that it was desired by your colleagues and yourself that you should personaily explain the views which you and they entertain upon the subject of this state- ment which has been signed by them and handed to us ; will you have the kindness to do so ? — 'fhe memorial addresses itself to two points, first, the general tutorial system in the university; secondly, the special system of readerships in history and natural science at Christ Church. I should begin by saying that we do not consider either entirely perfect, and incapable of improvement ; but we deprecate any radical change in either. First, as to the tutorial system ; ii is in actual 2R>ssession of the field and has borne the real burden of teaching the great mass of the undergraduates. It secures a good education for all, whatever their mental capacities. It is a home growth which suits us, and with which we are familiar. For passmen (if they are to be retained, as they must be in reality, if not in name) it is abso- Cc 3 OXFORD. T. H. Green, Esq., M.A. 30 Oct. 1877. 20G UNIVERSITi: OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. H. Salwey, M.A. 30 Oct. 1877. lately necessary, unless they are to be left to the tender mercies of “ ))ass coaches,” who best tievelope the system of imparting the bare minimum of teaching in the smallest possible time. The college tutor is neither too far above the pupils in the range of his teaching, nor is he obliged to limit himself to the necessities of the schools; he can make the pupils think for themselves. The tutor’s influence acts as a whole. He is not merely the teacher, but tlie friend, at least the member of the same society, with common sympathies and interests. If you make the colleges merely vast lodging-houses, all this is gone. Tlien I think there is some importance in the honour and pass teaching being given by the same tutor ; each helps the other, and the passman is a real help to the honour lecturer in insuring accuracy, thoroughness, and knowledge of detail. Even for the classmen, all but the very best men want more attention and individual teaching than professors w'ould be able or willing to give, as a rule. The personal knowledge and intimacy is a valuable element in the formation of character, and the pupils can come more freely with diflieulties in their work or for general advice. Then, again, the methods and kind of teaching are different. The method in college teaching is not the mere imparting so much information in a lecture, however able, but what I may call fAccievTiKi^ Then, to meet one or two objection.s ; in a small college (or even in a large one in some subjects) the classes will be small and the motive to good work on the part of tlie teachers will be diminished ; also a small college cannot secure good teachers within its own body for all the subjects. But this can be met, and is met, by combination between different colleges into groups for teaching purposes. This supplies the stimulus, secures division of labour, and does not destroy the speciality of the college system. 3356. Your college is not a party to any of these combinations, is it ? — Only in some subjects. It is in history and lawy and practically' to some extent in mathematics. We do not intend to set ourselves at all against any system of appointing a certain number of college tutors as university readers, but we thought there was a danger of their possibly neglecting the old work, in accepting the new, if they retained the two offices together. I do not know w'hether I may suggest one or two improve- ments which have occurred to me which perhaps come within the range of the subject, one was as regards college tutors. We thought it desirable, or at all events some of us did, that they should have a more permanent career by, in some cases at all events, allowing marriage and removing the restrictions on the holding of property. Then, as regards under- graduates, some of us (again I am not speaking in the name of the whole body) wished that they should come up at an earlier age, and also that the age for scholarships should be limited. 3357. {Sir M. fV. lUdlei/.) Have you thought wdiat limit ymu would put for scholarships ? — Our' own limit at present is 1 9 for the ordinaiy studentships, and 20 for those in natural science. I should think they might be both at least a year younger; 18 for the one and 19 for the other. 3358. {Dr. Bellamy.) I suppose that 19 has been the age for the Westminster students from time im- memorial, has it not ? — I think very often they have been younger. I am not sure about tlie limits of age. 3359. {Prof. Smith.) What is the reason for allow'- ing a year longer in the case of your natural science studentships ? — I think they were drawn from a somewhat different class of men, men who had not had the same educational advantages, and were later in starting in their work. That is all I have to say on the first general head. As to the second branch of the subject, Christ Church jiossesses a fairly complete organisation of teachers in natural science and history. We have three Readers in ana- tomy, chemistry, and physics, who are free from the usual restriction of celibacy and the holding of pro- perty above 500Z. a year. The Readerships are founded and endowed out of moneys left to the college by Dr. Lee. They have a quasi-professorial character, at least their lectures are open to members of the university on payment of a small fee, and are advertised in the University Gazette. The Reader in chemistry has his own laboratory in Christ Church, the Reader in anatomy has the use of a room in the museum, and the collection of anatomical specimens lent by Christ Church to (he university. But the Readers are more like college tutors than university professors; ])upils are assigned to them; these are looked after individually and specially ; the teaching is of a less formal kind than is usual with professors’ lectures. Of course I am only speaking here from information which I have received from the Readers themselves. It is in fact simply the extension of the ordinary tutorial system to subjects which are usually in the university taught professorially. The Readers have besides sufficient leisure to devote themselves to some independent research, as in nauiral science the two can be combined, since the number of jjupils is not large enough to occupy the whole time. In fact they secure that combination of teaching and research (each helping the other) which it has been thought so desirable to encourage in the university. The system has resulted in very considerable success in the schools and in the subsequent career of the pupils. We hope that the connexion of the Readers with Christ Church will not be severed, and that the Commissioners will not treat the Readerships as university chairs, nor suppress or re-arrange them to suit some theoretically complete scheme. Of course we do not mean to allude to the iiolders of the chairs, but vve wish that the offices should be retained by the college. Similar advantages are secured to the students in history by the teaching and supervision of our Reader in history who, although holding an university Readership as well, has found time and energy to create a Historical School in Christ Church, and to look after his pupils with the same care as is exercised by a college tutor. I think, perhaps the combination would hardly be possible for a Reader without unusual capacity for work, but we have two subsidiary lecturers in history and law. The advantages offered by Christ Church in this respect have been recognised, as is shown by several unattached students migrating to Christ Churcli in order to obtain the special attention that they desired, and afterwards obtaining high honours in the schools. Perhaps 1 may add a caution against the danger of over-centralisation. Many teachers would prefer the more independent position of a Lee’s reader to that of a sub-professor whose course of teaching was marked out for him by the professor at the head of the faculty. It is well, perhaps, to have some centres of independent teaching and work, and some competition, and this would be secured by a development on the existing lines. 3360. {Chairman.) You are probably aware that it has been suggested that the Lee’s readership might be made ;in university professorship ? — I thought it was very probable that it might be contemplated. I did not know in what shape the actual suggestion had been made. 3361. Is it the opinion of yourself and of gentle- men whom you represent that that would be a loss to Christ Church, or that it would not be beneficial to the university? — Rather that it would be a loss to Christ Church ; and I think it would be, taking a wide view, quite consistent with the interests of the university. 3362. {Prof. Smith.) If the Lee’s readerships were made into sul)-professorships there would of course be a loss of that element of competition which you consider valual)le ? — Yes. 3363. But that would not be the case if they were made into independent professorships, would it ? — No ; but then I should be afraid that the work would take so much of their time that they would not be able to give the special attention to pupils which in fact constitutes their peculiar character now. TJNIVEESITT OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 207 3364'. But would it not be possible to assign to them some special branch of teaching of whicli it would be well to relievo the university professors, giving to the lectures of the Lee’s Readers a com- pletely university character wilh regard to that special branch ; and yet leaving them the time for the pri ate work of which yon speak in connexion with the Christ Church men ? — 1 feel that they could answer that question much better than I can ; but I should think it was a question of degree. A certain amount of work of that kind, I sliouhl think, they could take. If they were given a large field, I think that it might take up too much of their time. 336.5. I noticed that in your statement it was pointed out that two of the I,ee’s Readers were suffi- ciently supplied with what I may venture to call plant, namely, the Lee’s Reader in chemistry, and the Lee’s Reader in anatomy who has a room at the museum ? — Yes, I fancy so. 3366. Is it your opinion, or is it the opinion of the Lee’s Reader in physics, that be is adequately provided either with space to work in or with the necessary materials and appliances for working ? — I do not venture to say what he would answer to that. We have thought it impossible to create a proper supply of instruments, and so on, lor him for any very advanced work, but I understood that it was possible to give elementary instruction without any very great appliances. 3367. The point to which I wish to call your attention is this : that if he should be provided with the appliances necessary for advanced instruction in some special department, that would cost you a great deal of money to begin with? — Yes. 3368. And in the next place, if you should put such appliances at his disposal, would it not be a great pitv that the advantage of that special appa- ratus and that special instruction should not be thrown open to the whole university ?— My opinion is of no great value on a matter of this kind, but I should think it advisable not to have a double set of expensive apparatus. 3369. As you represent the views of the teachers in Clirist Church, do you know whether they w'ould object if any modification were introduced into the mode of appointment of the Lees Readers ; at present I believe they are elected by the governing body of Christ Church ? — Yes. There might be a little jealousy, I think, about the patronage ; but, as a matter of fact, we really take the opinion of experts in the special subject. 3370. Your governing body already includes one class of persons wdio are nominated by the Crown, and not elected by yourselves? — Yes; there would be no new principle in that way. 3371. {Chairman.) Have your undergraduates at Christ Church largely gone in for natural science ? — There is not a very large number altogether. We have generally tv/o junior studentships in the year thrown open for the different subjects in natural science, and there are generally some half dozen commoners who take up the subject. 3372. Do these junior students continue the study after their election as a general rule, and pass through that school ? — Tl^ey generally work entirely during their time at tin/se subjects, that is to say, when they have got through their passwork. 3373. Are there seven or eight altogether ? — There are about eight students generally. 3374. Having regard to the whole number in the university who go into that school, do you know whether that proportion is larger than in other colleges which do not give separate instruction in natural science ? — There are one or two other colleges which give special instruction and opportunities, like Magd.ilen, I believe; but it is a distinctly high pro- portion 1 shouki think as compared with the ordinary colleges in the university. 3375. With regard to the honours taken in that school, does Christ Church get a large proportion of them ? — Yes, I think it gets a considerable proportion of them, but I have not balanced it against the honours obtained bv members of other colleges. The honours gained in the last seven years are considerable, con- sidering the number who went in. 3376. You stated, I think, that except in the subjects of law and modern bistory Christ Church was not a party to the combination system of teaching by college tutors ? — I think I should have excepted mathematics also. Our students go to the professors’ lectures, and I believe they go to some out college lectures, but I do not think we are formally in a com- bination. 3377. Ido not wish you to answer the question if there is any objection on your part to do so ; but is there any reason whicli it might he useful for us to know for your not joining the combination in Literse Humaniores? — The single reason is that we thought our staff was large enough to cover most of the ground ; we have a larger number of tutors. 3378. The time was, we all know, when in that school the Christ Church men bore an extremely favourable comparison with any other men in the university ; is that the case now as to the honours which they ultimately take ; — No, I am afraid it is not in the Literse Humaniores School. 3379. Is it possible that the difference may be due to the want of whatever si mulus arises from the competition of tutors under this combined scheme ? — I do not really think it is due to that. I think it is due !o other causes ; we do not get quite such good material to work upon. 3380. Do you think that your not getting such good material is due to the attractions which other colleges offer in the way of prizes ? — Yes, and the reputation they have. 1 should have said, to be strictly accurate, that in the honours work in Mode- rations we have the assistance of an eminent scholar, Mr. Nettleship, who takes work for us and Corpus Christ! College together, so that to that extent there is a combination between us and Corpus. 3381. But whether in combination or not in com- bination, it is the opinion of the body to which you belong that it is not at all desirable that the tutorial system of the colleges should be superseded by a system of university Readerships ? — Y’es,' that is dis- tinctly our opinion. 3382. {Mr. Bernard.) Have you read the proposals of the Hebdomadal Council with respect to the creation of new Professorships and of Readerships ? — Yes. 3383. In those proposals is there anything which in your view or in the view of your college would materially interfere with the system that you desire to preserve ? — I cannot say that I have a very accurate remembrance, but I do not recollect that there is any- thing. 3384. You contemplated some more forcible inter- ference than you know, or have observed, to exist in what has been proposed by the Hebdomadal Council ? — Yes, exactly. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o’clock. OXFORD. Rev. H. Salwey, M.A. 30 Oct. 1877. C c 4 208 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, OXFORD. F. Max Muller, Esq , M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. OXFORD. Wednesday, 31st October 1877. TKESENT : The Right IIonourai5LE LORD SELBORNE in the Chaiu. The Right Hon. The Earl of Redesdaee. ] Sir ^Matthew White Rihlet, Bart., M.B. The Right IIon. Mountague Bernard, D.C.L. | The Rev. James Bellamy, D.D. The Rev. T. Vere Bayne and T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretaries. F, Max Muller, Esq., M.A., (Professor of Comparative Philology,) examined. 3385. {Chairman.) Perhaps you will begin your evidence by stating your general view as to an extension of tbe professoriate in tlie university? — 1 am afraid you have heard so much u])on that subject that really I have very little to say which has not been said before, and said much better than 1 can say it. I do not think that an extension of the pro- fessiorate is wanted at ali, if the present system of university teaching remains what it is. What, I believe is really wanted, is a revival of the old pro- fessoriate, the restoration of its old rights and duties. It is not enough, I think, to have a professoriate ; you should at the same time assign to it definite duties and also definite rights. At the present moment, so far as my experience in Oxford goes, what often happens is this : if there is a very good Latin scholar in the university he naturally becomes a fellow of a college and then a tutor ; and while a tutor he renders use- ful service by teaching, not only in his own college, but also in ditferent colleges ; because under the new system colleges may combine, and those colleges whicb by accident are not supplied with a very good Latin tutor will avail themselves of the aid of other colleges in which such a tutor exists. If such a man has distinguished himself, has really been recognised as being the first Latin scholar in the university, he may after a time be made a professor. What is the result of that ? The sphere of his usefulness is at once narrow'ed, and not only narrowed, but almost rendered nil. He has the title of pro- fessor ; but his opportunities of teaching and ren- dering useful services either to liis own college or to the university at large are considerably curtailed. Why that is so of course you know perfectly well. The system in Oxford is, that a young man entering a college receives advice from the tutors in Ids own college, and with the present system of examinations of course the best advice the tutor can give him is to read certain books with certain tutors in order to be able to pass certain examinations. 1 know from my own experience that this advice is even carried so far as to M'arn a young man against attending professorial lec- tures because, as the phrase is, they do not pay. And no doubt they do not pay. If the sole object of a student at Oxford is to take a high class in the different ex- aminations that he has to pass eveiy year, it does not pay to look beyond a given narrow horizon, to look beyond tliose books vvldch are necessary for the ex- aminations, and to look beyond that teaching which is supplied in college lectures, and the results of which he is expected to produce before the examiners, most of whom are again tutors in the different colleges of the university. Now what is a professor to do ? Either he must be satisfied to lecture before a few masters of arts, or lie must make himself a college tutor, and some professors have tried to do so. But even that has been rendered extremely difficult bv' the system of combined lectures. Professors have actually been (‘xcluded from advertising their lectures on the same list on which the different tutors advertise their so- called inter-collegiate lecturcsi 3386. That applies only to one combination, I think. We have lists here, and the lists of the larger combination, at least the one which includes Balliol College, do include professorial lectures? — There are certain exceptions ; but speaking of my own case, and the case of my jiresent deputy, I believe that he has been told that his lectures can no longer be advertised upon the list of com- bined lectures, although before he was a deputy professor his lectures were so advertised. Of course the reasons for this are manifold. It is partly', as I have said before, that from experience it has been shown that it does not pay for a young man to look beyond what is expected from him at the different examinations. It also is said to give additional trouble in the examinations. There is no doubt that a professor who carries on his own studies is aware in bis own subject of a nundier of new discoveries which he feels in duty bound to lay before his audience. I mean that in every subject a new planet, a Neptune is occasionally discovered, to say nothing of smaller stars, but that Neptune is not yet recognised in the tutorial system of teaching, nor is he recognised in the examinations ; and it happens occasionally that a pupil produces what he has been taught by a pro- fessor, and what in the examination is considered as not sound, that is to say, as new and not yet estal - lished as yiart or parcel of the recognisr’d system of teaching. Under these circumstances it seems to me, I must say, almost a waste of power to increase the professoriate in Oxford without at the same time jji’oviding a new sphere of usefulness for it. 3387. Do I understand that your objection to the university professoriate under the present system is that you actually remove men from a sphere in which they are useful as teachers, and put them into another in which they are less useful ? — That has been the practical result in several cases. It seems to me that the true mode of providing professors is suggested by the ancient traditions of the university'. We need not create, w'e have only to revive. The university possesses a large number of fcllow'ships. Tliose fellowships are almost what is now called a survival, I mean what in geology' and phy'siolngy is called a survival ; and a survival is of no use unless it is capable of a revival. It seems to me that our fellow- ships are capable of a revival, and they are capable of it without thereby inflicting any injury on anybody', nay without in the least interfering with the present system, while the new experiment is being tried. Their number is so large, I mean, that it is quite possible to make an experiment with a small number of them. What I should like to see, particularly in order to increase the usefulness and raise the character of the fellowships, is that a small number of fellowships in each college should be set apart, and that they should be given upon some such system as 1 shall tiy to explain. In any branches of science which are not represented in the university there might be from time to time an examination to admit students to felloAvships which should be tenable for say five HNIVKItsiTV OF OXFOUL) COMMISSION; MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 209 years, and tei' • with certain diuies attached to tltcni. For instance, I believe it is felt that in Oxford we require one or several representatives of Greek and Roman archasology. It has also been said that we require a professor or a representative of Persian lite- rature, one of the most ancient and important and most wide-spread literatures: and we always want pro- fessors in several branches of zoology, and so on. Why not have an examination from time to time to attract young men to these branches of study ? They would be told that they might have a fellowship for five years, with the condition that during these five years they should go, for instance, to Athens or to Rome, and there work at certain branches of archaj- ology to be recommended to their attention by a Board of Studies at Oxford ; that during those five years they should be perfectly free, except that they must from time to time report the results of their studies in very much tl.'e same way as is done in France in the Ecolc des Arts at Athens, and at Rome. After the five years during which tiiey might be called “ Student fellows,” it should be free to them to be elected again for another five years with the title of “ Master fellows,” holding a IVIaster fellowship which should be higher in emolument. They should during that second period have again fixed duties attached to their fellowship, such as for instance in the case of archaeology, to make a catalogue of all the Greek and Roman marbles which are scattered about in private collections in England. At the end of the 10 years I should look upon those men as candidates for professorships ; in fact, after those two periods I should give them the title of “ Fellow professors ” or professorial fellows, or whatever you like, and give them then, and then only, the venia dneendi. They should have permission to lecture if they like, and if they do lecture I should give them a third fellowship during the time they lectured. This last step would require special regulations. In this way, without doing injury to anybody, I think we should have a constant supply of men devoted to special subjects of study, whose interest it would be to produce from time to time special work, and to whom a career would be open for a life of usefulness in the univer- sity. There is no career at present for a fellow ; a fellow remains a fellow whatever he may do. That I think is a mistake. By trying this opening of fellowships I think we should first of all do injury to nobody, and secondly we should supply a staff of young men devoted to special studies, which might l)e pointed out to them by a board constituted ad hoc in the university. We should then have as large a supply of professors as we like, and we should know something of our professors before we appoint them for life. But now I come to tlie question, which has been asked before, what are those professors to do ? They are to lecture: but they have no audience. I have no hesitation in saying that here, too, we want a revival ; we want to make professors professors again, and tutors tutors again. The professors should teach, and the tutors should guard, protect, and watch the growth of that teaching in each college. There must be two classes of men, or rather I would not say that there must be, but in a University like Oxford which has the immense advantage of old wealth, there can be, what in a German university there cannot be, you can have a largi! staff of professors to teach in the university, and a large class of tutors to watch and guide the studies of the young students. It happens very often to me while I am in Germany that I have to point out the weak points of the German system, and the strong points of the English ; and it happens to me very often in England that I have to point out the weak points of the English system and the strong points of the German. The difference, however, is very great ; for whereas in England you can, if you like, combine the strong points of the English system with the strong points of the Ger- man, we cannot do so in Germany. In order to have a tutorial as well as a professorial system you must have what you have in England, colleges endowed as Q 6223. tl.ey are. But when you have them, I thiidc you .should make the college do the duty of a college, namely, that of the superintendence of the work which an undergraduate is expected to do, and leave the teaching to the j)rofessors or to that larger staff of professorial fellows which the colleges, if they are restored to their ancient pur[)Ose, will naturally produce. 3388. Will you explain distinctly the function which you describe as that of superintendence or watching and guiding the studies ? — I speak of what I have felt myself as particularly missing in a German university. In a German university many students hardly know a single profe.'=scr ; they see a numher of lectures advertised, and sueli is the curiosity of many a young man that, if left to himself, he attends a great many more lectures than is good for him. I do not mean to say that his time is entirely wasted. I think it is perhaps good for a young man of 18 to look about him, and not at once to begin his S])ecial studies, to attend some professor hy whom he feels attracted, and also to look into subjects for which he has a kind of natural interest ; but certainly the great danger in a German university is that a young man wastes one or tw'O years without having a certain line of studies. I have brought with me my book, in which all the lectures which I attended in the years 1841 and 1842 at Leipsic are entered, and which confirms what I have just said as to the number of lectures. The variety of subjects on which one attends lectures is far too large. What a college tutor might do, and ought to do from the beginning, would be to say to a young man, “ Now “ in your first year do not attend a score of lectures on “ textual criticism or on the value of manuscript'^ ; “ leave that for a later time ; read largely : read such and such subjects. If you have a particular taste for “ historians read such and such historians, and attend “ such and such lectures ; do not attend the other “ lectures now, because they w'ill come better next “ year,” and so on. He should also be ready to answer questions and recommend books ; he should see that the man reads at home ; he should be, in fiict, a friend and adviser and guide ; he should he in the true sense of the word a tutor. 3389. But should I’ead no books with liim ? — I think not. 3390. Nor examine him in the books which he is reading? — Yes, I was going to speak of that. I think that two examinations, the matriculation and tlie final examination should be in the hands of the university, but the moderations should be in the hands of the colleges. The intermediate examinations should be in the hands of the colleges, but the entrance to the university and the exit from the university should be, as they are in every other university, in the hands of the university which bestows the degrees. Then I should also say that I think the age for admis- sion to the university should be limited to 18. A man should be ripe for Oxford at 18, and if he is not so then, he should at all events not be admitted to certain privileges of the university. He should not, if he enters the university at 21 or 22 be allowed to compete for exhibitions, scholarships, and fellowships with those who enter at 18. I think that at 18, as modern life is constituted now, a man ought to have finished with his school work, and that he should be ripe for the university. 3391. (Mr. Bernard.) You would not object to his taking a degree after admission at a later age? — No, not to his taking a degree, certainly not. 3392. Would you object to his competing in his jjlace in the honour list? — That is a point on which I should not like to give an opinion. 1 think, however, it is not fair that a man should get a first class at 25, and that that first class should be as honourable as the first class which a man gets at 21. 3393. Anyhow, you think it very desirable that if possible the age at which men now come to the uni- versity should be reduced ? — I should like to see it reduced to 18. 3394. (ClLuirman.) To secure such attendance at the lectures of the professors as you think desirable, D d OXFORD. F. Max Muller, Esq M.A. 31 Oct. 1877 •210 UNIVERSITV OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. F. Max Muller, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. w'oultl you rely upon the advice of the tutor ; and should that advice be attended with any means of compelling obedience to it? — I think that at first a certain pressure would be necessary. The present system has been followed so long that I think a young man coming from school now looks forward to liis life at Oxford as he knows it to be. He knows his work will not be very different from what it was at school. He knows he will not be allowed to use his own wings, but that he will have crutches to walk with. There- fore at first I believe that some kind of pressure would be required. It is very curious, however, that no such pressure is required where a freer academical system has been established for a long time, as it has been in Germany. 3395. {Mr. Bernard.'', Do not you think that at the present time there has been a gradual relaxation of that pressure in Oxford, with regard to the lectures that a young man attends, I mean that the pressure is not so stringent now as it formerly was ? — I cannot tell from my own experience. 3396. Is there not now less of positive direction, and more of consultation and advice, as between the tutor and the student, than was the case formerly "i — I do not {)ossess sufficient knowledge to express an opinion upon it. All that I should form my oj)inion by is that certainly the liours until one o’clock are occupied by collegiate and inter-collegiate lectures ; and if you lecture before one o’clock the undergraduates will in- variably tell you that there is a college lecture which they have to attend at that hour. I know that in one college the tutor recommended certain men to attend professorial lectures, and that he was blamed at a eollege meeting for so doing, and the men were told that thei’e was a college lecture at the .same time which they ought to attend in preference, and which they so attended afterwai-ds. Therefore it looks to me as if the college authorities could easily exercise that kind of pressure which might be required as first. 3397. {Chairman.) Might there not be a material difference between the effect of that sort of moral pressure if the teaching was provided entirely by the college, or by tutors whom the college recognises, and the effect of the same kind of pressure if the teaching were all outside the colleges ? — That certainly is so at present. There is strong pressure in favour of tutorial teaching, and there is not only no pressure, but there is a negative pressure with reference to the professorial system. But that need not be so in future. 3398. Supposing your plan to be adopted, and that the whole teaching by college tutors was suppressed, and it was all placed in the hands of professors, do you think that mere advice and moral persuasion would be sufficient with the general body of students to ensure their attendance upon the professorial lectures ? — Not with the general body. I think with them that some pressure would at first be necessary. There is something of the kind in a German univer- sity, where each professor must testify that a student has attended his lectures. 3399. Otherwise a student could not be admitted to examination, would that be the sanction ? — -That is not so in Germany, because there it is not necessary. There are different pressures there at work which you cannot have in an English university. If it is worth while to go into that I should be able to explain why it is so, but I am afraid that it would take up more of your time than you could spare. 3399a. {Mr. Bernard.) What is the value of that professorial certificate which you referred to just now ? — You produce it at the examination to show that you have attended certain lectures. 3100. {Chairman.) Could you be examined without it ? — Yes, you could. 3401. {Mr. Bernard.) What good does it do you? — It is really a receipt for what you pay for each lecture, and this must be testified by the professor and by the qusestor of the university. 3402. When a young man goes up for examination, say for his doctor’s degree, would he produce to the examiners the certificates of the professors that he had attended certain lectures ? — He would. 3403. Supposing that a young man appeared and presented no such certificates, would the examiners regard him with disfavour; they would not, as I understand you, refuse to examine him ? — They would not refuse to examine him, but he would come before them as a rather exceptional candidate ; in fact the case Avould hardly occur. 3404. Would the production of those professorial certificates have this effect, that they would in any way guide the course of his examination — Yes, cer- tainly. 3405. So if a man, say yourself, had attended the lectures of Hermann, upon producing a certificate that you had attended Hermann’s lectures, would you expect to be examined in the subjects of those lectures ? — Yes, and that is exactly what happened to me. I was examined by old Gottfried Hermann. The examinations are in the hands of all the profes- sors who form the Senate. Their number may amount to about 20, and any one of those 20 may examine if he likes. They are all men who have been profes- sors for a long time, because you do not get into the Senate until you have been a privat-docent and an extraordinary professor, and then a regular profes- sor. Then those professors would look at the student’s book and say, “ You have attended such “ and such lectures ; for instance, yon have read cer- “ tain plays of Aeschylus and so on; now let me “ examine you in that.” If a candidate had not at- tended the lectures of that professor he would see what other lectures he had attended, and that would enable him to see in what subjects he should examine him. I was just going to allude to what happened to myself. I was examined by old Hermann, and he put me on to an ode of Pindar, and I must confess that I could not translate it well, and he said, “ But how is that ? Have yon not read it?” And I said, “Well, I have read it, but I have not read it lately,’’ and he at once said, “ Tell me what you have read, what are the “ subjects, and what are the books which you are “ most fond of and have most read.” I told him, and he at once took the books and examined me in them. That is of course totally different from the English system ; but it answers equally well. Besides, that examination gives you no rights, but only an acade- mical standing. 3406. {Chairman.) It is a separate examination, as we understand, of each student ; they do not all go up together, and are not classified together ? — They arc classified differently in different universities. Sometimes they are classified as either having simply passed or as having passed cum laude or magna cum laude. 3407. That would correspond, would it not, to our first and second classes ? — To a certain extent ; but, as I said, that examination gives a man simply an academical status. The real examination, that on which his prospects in life depend, conies later. 3408. You spoke of some other kinds of pressure which work in Germany, but would not work here, which you thought it would occupy too long a time to explain. I think it might be useful to us if you would explain them as concisely as the case admits? — When I spoke about the pressure which exists in a German university, and not in an English university; first of all, there is tradition. A son has learned from his father what he has to do at school, and what he is expected to do at the university, and he looks forward to the university as a place of com- plete freedom. At school he is very much drilled and kept under, but at the university he is supposed to be for the first time a man, and allowed to choose for himself. He feels that ; if there is any good in him, he feels the responsibility of his freedom, and he uses it with advantage to his character, but also no doubt with certain risks. Then comes another pressure, and that again you cannot imitate in England. It is what I call the privilege of poverty. The majority of the students in a German university are poor, UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 211 whereas the majority I believe in an English university arc rich; at all events they do not altogether depend for their existence on their own exertions. 34-09. Do the majority of the students in Germany, or much the greater proportion of them, come for the purpose of improving themselves and getting the education necessary for their success in life ? — Entirely so, iind if they fail, there is no prospect open to them. In England, if a man fails at the university, thei'e are many avenues which are still open to him ; there is trade, there are the colonies, there is private patronage, and so on ; whereas in Germany there is no loophole left. A man who fails in his examinations is lost, and everyone knows that. 3410. {Mr. Bernard^ Cannot he enter any pro- fession ? — He cannot enter any profession, as all the professions are under the control of the Government, and, as you cannot be a medical man, as you cannot be a clergyman, as you cannot be a civil servant, as you cannot be a lawyer without passing a state ex- amination, there is no escape. A man who does not pass his examination in Germany is lost in society, and a disgrace to his family. All that is very different in England. 3411. {Sir M. W. Ridley.) What do they do in Germany with a man who does not pass ? — A man becomes a useless subject, a vagabond, and an adven- turer. 3412. Does he go into the army? — No, certainly not ; on the contrary, the army absorbs at present our best talent. 3413. {Mr Bernard.) Should you not say that the great majority of the students at Oxford were young men who were dependent, perhaps not for mere bread, but for a comfortable existence, upon entering a pro- fession and having some fair success in it ? — Yes, there is a certain proportion of such young men. 3414. Should not you say that the great majority of the students at Oxford were in that situation? — I hardly know. Still I should say that the tone is given in Oxford by men who are not entirely depen- dent upon their own exertions. 3415. {Chairman.) Is not there a still more import- ant difference in this, that in Germany you cannot enter a profession unless you have passed this exami- nation, whereas in England you may enter a profession without having passed one of those university exami- nations at all ? — That is also the case. 3416. And that the examinations which a man has to pass in England before entering a profession are less stringent than they are in Germany? — They become more and more stringent now. As you know, the Civil Service Examinations have become more and more stringent, and the military examinations also, and even the bishops’ examinations, too, are said to be less lenient than they were. 3417. I am not quite sure that I am able to apply what you have told us to an expression which you used at the beginning, namely, the rights of the professors. I think you said that the professors had definite duties and definite rights ? — I thought I had explained that by saying that I thought that the whole teaching should be the province and the rightful province of the professors. » 3418. Then the distinction between duties and rights is between different aspects of the same thing ? — Yes, but they should have a right to students which at present they have not. 3419. And they should have the duty of teaching? — Yes. 3420. With respect to the mode of securing the attendance of the students, we collect that your impres- sion is that it would be necessary to use some degree of compulsion ; that is to say, that a college should reejuire its students when they come first to attend the lectures of a particular professor ? — I certainly think so. However, if you take away the pressure which at present exists within the college, I believe with many, nay with most students a sense of respon- sibility would spring up. At present they are treated as if they were still in the nursery. Take away that nursery-system, and I think that they will feel that they must look after their own interests. If there are no college lectures at all, I think they will go to the professorial lectures. 3421. But there would always be in this university a considerable number of young men who, if they were allowed to do as they liked, would go to no lectures at all, would there not ? — I believe so, at least, at first ; and I suppose that always there would be a small number. But with those it is easy to use the same pressure to make them attend some lecturer which has been used hitherto. 3422. Do you think that the number would really be small ? Of course I assume that when they come to think of their degrees they would do sometliing to get preparation for them. Would they not be likely to prefer going to the gentlemen called “ coaches” rather than to professors ? — There would always be some, particularly in the last year, when the exami- nation comes, who would want the assistance of private tutors. That exists even in the German university. But as a rule I think that the majority of young men are thirsty, and if you take them to the water, will drink. 3423. The question is how the process of taking them to the water can be conducted ? — By telling them that they come to Oxford to learn, that in order to learn they should attend lectures, and that at the proper time they would be required to produce certificates of their having attended them. 3424. You know probably enough of the present course of instruction and the manner of instruction in the combined college lectures to be able to say whether those lectures differ in character from the lectures which a staff of teaching professors ought to give to the same class of students, or whether they are of the same character ? — I think the difference is more in the quality than in the quantity. I think the matter which they teach is really very much the same, but the manner differs. 3425. Can you explain a little further in what that difference of manner consists ? — I can only judge of it by the results. The great difference to me between the German and English universities is that I see that the three years of his academic life are to a German student years of intense enjoyment and pleasure ; he rushes to the lectures ; he is drawn by curiosity ; he wants to hear the best professors. I do not mean to say that he always works very hard, but whatever he does he does of his own free will, and he enjoys it. He is not always told at eight o’clock you must do this, at nine o’clock you must read that book, at ten o’clock you must go to that tutor, and •at eleven o’clock you must produce that essay. When he works, it is a pleasure to him to work. Now I must confess from my experience at Oxford that almost every young man I know complains and grumbles ; he hates his work ; he knows he must do it, and if he has a sense of responsibility he does it, and he takes a good class in the examination. But when he has done that he is so dissatisfied, not to say disgusted, with the work which he has been doing dur- ing the three years at Oxford that he never thinks of it again, except with dissatisfaction. 3426. That is of course a description with many exceptions? — Yes, there are many exceptions, no doubt. I only tell you what comes before me. Young men, clever young men, come to me, and if I ask them. Why don’t you read for your own inq)rovement ; why do you not read such and such a book ? They say No, we have no time, we must read for the examination. I only want to give the Commission the different im- pression that is conveyed to me by German and English students. I hardly ever hear a (Jerman student grumble, but on the contrary he likes his three years ; he likes not simply the bodily athletics but the intel- lectual athletics of the place. As a rule that is not the case at Oxford, and I believe that that is due to the constant pressure and supervision of tuition which is experienced here, and therefore although upon the subject itself which is taught the amount of learning D d 2 OXFORD. F. Max Muller, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. 212 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. F. Max Midler, Fsq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. farried away from the university may be very much the same in Germany as in England, yet the cha- racter of it and the feeling with which one looks back to it is different. A German likes the recollec- tion of his tliree years at tlie university, he likes to return to his old studies, but I must say that many a clever young man at Oxford goes away from Oxford di.ssati.'^iied with the work which he has been doing. speak from my own experience, which is limited but correct. I have been told again and again by young men, whose names I could specify, “ When we “ have done our examinations, then we will begin to “ work, but at present we cannot.” .‘1427. Some witne.sses have told us that they thought the professorial sy.stem would never bring the teachers into such close relations with the students as the college s} Stem does ; what do you think about that ? —That is perfectly true, and that is the great draw- back of the German system, particularly in the large universities, and all universities now have a tendency to become large. But there is an advantage too in a young man being thrown back on his own resources. 3428. Would the professorial teaching, such as you think it ought to be, be in any of its forms cat- echetical ? — No, never. Every evil, however, has a tendency to cure itself. Each professor in a German university has what is called a society, and in look- ing through the lectures which I attended, I find, beginning in the second semester, instead of lectures, there are societies, disputatoria, seminaria, and so on, where a professor admits a small number of students with whom he works. Of course it is a privilege to be admitted to these societies. One has to write an essay before one is admitted. There are about 12 men in each society ; each society meets once or twice a week. 3429. For how long? — For one or for two hours, and then the professor reads with those 12 men a book, discusses certain (juestions, reads their essays, advises them and guides them. All the best men in a German university belong to some of these soeieties, so that one disadvantage of the professorial system is to a certain extent remedied. In England, of course, it would be remedied by the college and the tutors. 3430. You recommended that the Moderation Examinations should be conducted by the colleges ; of course you are aware that under the present system the Moderation Examinations occupy the greater part of the whole ground of the matter of instruction in what is called fine scholarship ; that is, an accu- rate knowledge of the Greek and Latin languages with the power to compose in them, is chiefly the subject of those examinations, is that not so ? — Yes ; anti I think that all this could be done best by the tutorial staff of a college. 3431. Would not it put, I will not say the science of Latin and Greek piiilology, but an accurate and scholarlike knowledge of those languages rather too much out of the university course, if the university teachers omitted i!, and the college tutors only under- took it ? — To a great extent a man’s minute scholar- ship, and also the talent of writing Latin verse or of imitating Greek idiom, can best be tested by the tutor who knows the student personally. 3432. But would it not be greatly discouraged if it were shunted out, so to say, in that manner ? — It would not be shunted out by becoming the chief object of an important college examination. 3433. It would not enter into the course of univer- sity honours at all, at least at present — I do not see how it could if it were to be conducted by the colleges? — It would tell in the final examination if the final examination were left freer than it is at present. If a man were to say in his final examina- tion that he had given particular attention to minute scholarship and to a happy imitation of Latin and Greek poetry, he ought to have an opportunity of showing his acquirements. 3434. Y"ou would modify the final examination so as to give some scope for that description ot knowledge ? — I ihiiik it would become modified necessarily if it were left in the hands of Boards of Studies, and if each professor had a right to examine in the subject marked out by the candidate. 343d. What modification of the examination system would you recommend ? — It would chiefly consist in this that a man should be allowed to bring up his own subject, and that if he reaches a high maximum in that one subject, and satisfies the examiner that he has reached a minimum in others, he should be considered worthy of an academical status. 3436. What did you mean just now by your sugges- tion as to giving the professoriate a definite place in the Board of Examiners ? — All professors should have a place on that board. If, for instance, a candi- date were to say, “ I have jiaid special attention to Greek numismatics,’’ there should be a jirofessor of Greek arclueology ready to examine that candidate, more especially after he has satisfied the other jirofes- sors that he has reached the minimum necessary for passing. 3437. {Dr. Bellamy.) In any case the classification of the men must be much less exact than it is now ? — Yes, much less exact. You would simply give an academical status. You would simply say to a man. You have done your duty, and we give you the title of Master of Arts, but whether you are hereafter a good schoolmaster ora good medical man must depend upon another examination. 3438. {Mr. Bernard.) The difference as regards the authority to teach between an English and a foreign university appears, if I understand you, to be this, that there the venia docendi is given entirely by the university, whereas here it is given partly by the university and partly by the colleges ? — That may be so by usage, but I doubt whether it is so by right. 3439. Bractically in Oxford a man acquires the venia docendi if he is appointed a college tutor, does he not ? — It has come to be so, but as a matter of university history I doubt whether in the old univer- sities anybody had a right to lecture who had not received the venia docendi from the university. 3440. I am speaking of the actual practice. A man may teach, may he not, without any venia doccndVl — It was not so, even at Oxford, 25 years ago. 3441. {Chairman.) If a man has a degree, does not the form of conferring the degree of Master of Arts give him the venia doeendil — ^When I first came to Oxford no college tutor would have lectured publicly to any man outside his own college ; it would have been considered an infringement on the profes- sorial privilege. 3442. {Mr. Bernard.) The degree gives the venia docendi m the sense of a formal grant of the right to teach within the university; practically the right to teach is j)ossessed by any one who chooses to teach ; a private tutor for instance ? — I think that the Vice- Chancellor has a restrictive power even there. I do not think that anybody might come to Oxford and lecture. 3443. I am now speaking of what is practically the case ; any Master of Arts formerly did and now may teach as a private tutor ?- — Yes, in your own house and in your own college, but the question is, may you advertise your lectures for the university at large. That is now done, but it seems to me an infringement of the old statutes, and certainly contrary to the spirit of the ancient universities. 3444. Whatever the law of the university on tiiat subject may be, practically a man may teach by the appointment of a college as a college tutor, and now as an intercollegiate tutor, or he may teach by the appointment of the university as a professor, may he not ? — Yes. 3445. So that practically in Oxford the liberly or license to teach is given partly by the colleges and partly by the university ? — As a matter of fact it is. 3446. But the great majority of the teachers are persons authorised by the colleges, college tutors or intercollegiate tutors ? — Yes. 3447. Is there not at any rate this advantage, that the colleges have a real interest in appointing good UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 213 tutors.’ — It is no doubt their interest to do so, as it would be a matter of life and death to a university to Iiave the best professor that can be got, if the pro- fessors were really what they were originally intended to he, the chief, if not the only teachers in the university. 3'148. We have been told by some gentlemen that the colleges feel a very real interest in this matter, that is to say, in appointing as good tutors as they can ? — No doubt that is so ; and out of this staff of the best tutors appointed by each college, the univer- sity might choose again the best to be its professors. It would be the interest of the university to choose from among the best tutors of each college the best again, to he the professors in the university. 3449. Is there not an advantage in the mode of appointment which gives to the persons who appoint the teacher a strong interest in choosing the best man ? — A very great advantage. .3450. When you say that a professor once appointed a professor or public teacher is without an audience is not that putting it rather too strongly ? — ^Some pro- fessors have no audience. 3451. Has not a professor very frequently lor an audience the best class of the undergraduates who are following his particular branch of study ? — Very seldom. Each man can only speak from his own experience, and I know that the best scholars in the university have told me again and again that they would come to my lectures after they had taken their degree, but that they could not come and give their time to any extraneous study whilst they were read- ing for their class. 3452. Yet you must have had amongst your class some of the best philological students in the univer- sity ? — Yes, but generally after they had taken their degree. At first, when my subject was a new one, both tutors and undergraduates came to attend, but after a time a number of tutors were appointed in each college to teach as much of comparative philology as was supposed to be necessary and requisite for an examination. Thus in each college there was just a sufficient supply in comparative jdiilology, and there- fore the young men, either naturally or under advice, instead of attending the professorial lectures attended the tutorial lectures. And there also was occa- sionally a conflict of opinion. In every science, par- ticularly a new science like comparative philology, there is constant progress and constant change. As in astronomy now and then a new planet is dis- covered, so a new irregular form is now and then discovered and made regular by comparative grammar. What was true last year is no longer true this year ; there is a constant advance, and no one who has not all his time at his command can keep pace with it. If in the examination a young man produces what is new, it is sometimes supposed to be not only new, but also wrong. 3453. In consequence of the study of comparative philology being so extended in Oxford your lectures may be said to bave diminished ?- — Y'^es, they had diminished. 3454. Do not you think that the men who are now teaching comparative philology in the various colleges were all or mostly pupils of your own ? — Yes. 3455. (^Chairman.) And they have become, I sup- pose, generally useful in the same direction ? — Yes. 3456. Without coming to your lectures so much, the subject as it is dealt with in your books is in the hands of every student ? — No doubt that is true, but still it deprives the professor of what I call his rights, and his domain, of what Niebuhr called his wings. A professor lectures better to fifty men than to five. Why should he be told, “You must leave it to your books and to your pupils.” 3457. {Mr. Bernard.^ Do you not think that although books may be useful personal contact with the man who has written the books is also very useful in exciting and keeping up an interest in the study ? — Decidedly so. I think that a professor can sometimes do more good in a quarter of an hour of private conversation than by 20 lectures before the class. 3458. Although therefore you may find that the attendance upon your lectures has diminished surely you must feel that your lectures have been useful in the highest degree to Oxford .’ — Yet, though very fond of lecturing, I thought it was better for me to make room for younger men who are more con- nected with the colleges, such as my present deputy, rtlr. Sayce, who is at the same time a college tutor. 3459. In Germany you say the students atlend lectures much more largely and freely than with us ? — Yes, certainly, because they have only one class of lectures to attend. 3460. Is it at the beginning or towards the end of their course that they attend those various lectures ? — Chiefly at the beginning. 3460«. Do you think it a good thing that a. student coming up to the university sUould in the earlier j)art of his course attend so many and such various lec- tures ? — r think that it has a certain use. A man should look round him for a time before he confines himself to a special .study. It seems to me that the first year in an university is not wasted if it is spent in discursive reading. 3461. That kind of choice which you think the student should exercise, would it be best exercised in the earlier or later part of his course ? — In the later part. 3462. Do you think that at present a student in Oxford towards the end of his course is not allowed considerable liberty as to the lectures that he will at^/'nd 'i - — So long as they are useful for the examina- tion, that is the one main point. 3463. {Sir M. W. Ridley.) Supposing the system of final examinations to be remodelled or rather com- pletely altered in the way that you wish, looking at the instruction given in the university from the point of view of the undergraduates who come to be taught, rather than from the point of view of the professor which I understand to be that which you have prin- cipally put before us, is there any reason why the teaching of a college should not be made quite as efficient from the point of view of the persons who come to be taught as it would be if it were entirely in the hands of professors ? — My own opinion is that if you select, as 1 said just now, out of the best tutors in each college the best tutor to be the pro- fessor, or the tutor of the university, then that pro- fessor ought to be able under ordinary circumstances to render more real service by his lectures than the other tutors in each college. 3464. What you would have with regard to that would be that the twm things would go on side by side, and you would' have the teaching of the college tutor as it is at present supplemented by the teaching of the professor ? — ^No ; that has been tried for the last 20 or 30 years, and has not answered. 3465. Supposing you were to bring the professors more into connexion with the examining board, and in that way to get what you seem to lay stress upon, namely, instruction, and examinations also, keeping- pace with the discovery of new facts, that would improve the examinations, would it not, to some extent ? — I think it would still be desirable to define the proper province of the tutor and. the proper province of the professor, and not to allow the system which exists at present where the professor, if he wants to make himself useful must cease to be a professor and becom.e a tutor, and where the tutor is really to a great extent, absorbed into the professor. 3466. Then your proposal which you have laid before us is a proposal to absorb the tutor altogether ? — There is ample work for the tutor as tutor, i.e., a guardian and guide, and for the professor as pro- fessor, i.e., as teacher. At present the professoriate is almost useless. It may not be wise to say so, but I am perfectly convinced that if at the present moment you abolished the whole of the professoriate in Oxford, the results shown in the examinations would be just the same. It would be much better, if Oxford D d 3 OXFORD. F. Max Muller, Esq. M.A. 31 Qct. 1877 214 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORl> COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD, F. Max Muller, Esq., M.A. .31 Oct. 1877. wishes only to prepare candidates for examinations, to give the professorships to those who are the professors in all but name, the college tutors. 3467. ( Chainna?!..') Another object of the pro- fessoriate has been stated to be the advancement of knowledge by original research, and so forth, and some have thought that the main object of the pro- fessoriate ; what is your opinion upon that point ? — If the suggestion which I threw out could be adopted, then it seems to me that original research would be the foundation from which a new professoriate would spring. I mean that those student-fellows and master- fellows, of whom I spoke, would be men, to use a trite phrase, of original research. A zoologist would he sent out for five years to the Cape or to Naples to work, and an archmologist to Athens, and a Persian scholar to Persia, and so on, and they would come back as men of what is now called original research, that is to say, as men who have done their duty each in his own proper sphere of work. 3468. And that would precede the appointment of a professor ? — Yes, that should precede his appoint- ment. Then out of that number of master-fellows the university would select professors to lecture. Those professors would not suddenly collapse and throw away all their interest in their own subject and become mere teachers ; that is not in human nature. 3469. (Dr. BeUamy.') Would you have any secu- rity that he would be able to teach at all, or that he would be a good teacher ? — Yes, there would be two classes, master-fellows and professor-fellows. I can imagine a man who after 10 years’ service, deriving from his fellowship, say 600/. a year, would prove utterly unfit to be a professor, and to him I should simply give the venia docendi, but I should not make him a professor. Professors should be selected from among the master-fellows. They should then have another fellowship, so that their salary might come to about 900/. a year, and be bound to lecture ; but I should preserve to the university a right of selection. 3470. What means have you of assuring yourself that the person that you appointed was a good teacher, he not having taught before ? — The same that you have in appointing a judge; you must do your best. 3471. (Sir M. W. Ridley.) In the one case a man has been teaching or in some way exercising his pro- fession, and in the other case he has not ; because a man who has been out to Persia, for instance, and learning his particular branch for 10 years has not been doing anything of which a judgment can be formed all that time ; how can you judge of his prob- able performance of the duty ? — You cannot have a professor who has heen a professor before you ap- point him ; you must take him upon trust. Generally speaking, every man who has worked 10 years in his own subject will be a good teacher. In fact, to know, has been explained as being able to teach. If you know a thing well, you are able to teach it. 3472. ( Chairmaii.) Taking the professoriate as it is without the teaching function which you think it ought to have, do you think that it has a tendency to promote research ? — The professoriate as it is now has not. In fact I have frequently heen asked how it is that in Germany a professor lectures so much and yet produces so many hooks. The reasons are manifold. First of all the staff of professors in Germany is 10 times as large as in England; for every 100 professors here we have 1,000 there, because there are so many universities ; therefore it is not surprising that a larger staff of professors should produce a larger number of books. .3473. (Mr. Bernard.) Must you not compare the professors in Germany who are the whole teaching body (including the extraordinary professors and also the Privat Docenten, as I suppose you would for this purpose) with the whole teaching body in England, including collegiate and intercollegiate teachers ? — Yes, you might ; but your college tutor is a very hard worked man ; his vacation is considered to he of great length, but he has no time to devote his vacation to the study of any special subject : he must recruit his health. 3474. I suppose that if those professors, whatever they are called, and public teachers are to do the whole public teaching, they must also be hard Mmrked men, must they not ? — They do not give so much time to daily work ; they have not so much practical teaching as it were, what people are pleased to call coaching. That is one consideration. Secondly, though there is apparently a fair staff of professors at Oxford, the number of those who are enabled to devote the whole of their time and energies to the subjects which they profess is extremely small. If you look more carefully into the list of professors I think you will find that more than one half of them are engaged in different, and sometimes very heterogeneous pursuits. There are very tew professors indeed at Oxford who are altogether professors. Some of them are canons, either in London or at Canterbui'y ; others are mem- bers of the Indian Council ; others have very onerous duties to perform, for instance, at the Univei'sity Press; others are heads of colleges, tutors, clergymen with a living ; in fact if you look carefully through the list, distinguishing professors who are professors only, from those who devote the greater part of their time to duties not connected with their professor- ship, you will find that our staff is much smaller than it appears to be. Thirdly, the demands of society, the demands of public life are much smaller in Germany. German society is much simpler, and requires very much less than English society, and public life in Germany is much simpler. Just take all the interests which distract the tutor and the professor at Oxford, while the whole administration of the university in Germany is in the hands of Commissioners. The ad- ministration of the funds, all those things which pro- duce a constant succession of meetings of committees at Oxford, all that is done for you. Convocation, con- gregation, and all the rest which occupies the time and excites the interest of almost every resident member of this university, all that does not exist in Germany. Therefore a man is left alone, left to his own studies. I confess that in that respect too there has been a very great change at Oxford, and a great deal more time is now absorbed by the management and the administration of the university than under the old regime. Our constitution is based on universal suffrage, with practically one chamber. We are governed by a constantly shifting constituency of very young men ; whereas those who have a longer experience in the uni- versity are generally not only left in a minority, but can hardly make their influence felt without wasting their time in canvassing, letter writing, &c. The less a professor values his time, the greater his in- fluence in the university. The fourth reason is that in Germany a professor must publish books, because books constitute the testimonials. No place is given away in Germany by testimonials as in England ; but a man in order to be anything in public opinion must from time to time produce a book. In England, on the contrary, nothing is more dangerous for men who want an office than to have published a book. 3475. You are acquainted with the university of Strassburg; would you just look at the long list of subjects which are being taught in the present Semester in the University of Strassburg; take the genei’al subject of philology (handing the German University Calendar to the witness), it comprises a great number of special subjects, does it not ? — Yes. 3476. It is impossible, I suppose, that the persons teaching those special subjects can have large audiences ? — Larger than you would expect. When I was professor at Strassburg I attended many lectures myself, in order to see what the teaching was, and also what the undergraduates were doing, and I was surprised to see the number of students. 3477. I was going to ask you what inducements that large number of persons had for the work they did, and the lectures they delivered, because I sup- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 215 posed tliat tiic amount of fees they received could not be very considerable ? — The fees are considerable with the older professors ; in fact with the older pro- fessors they are sometimes larger than their salary. With a young professor they are a mere nothing; but a young professor makes himself known and makes himself indispensajjle in the university by lecturing on certain subjects. 3478. The stipend of a young professor is in itself small, is it not ? — Very small. 3479. Has a privat docent none ? — No. 3480. An extraordinary professor has not much ? — Not much ; but he looks forward with certainty to a good income when he is 40. 3481. And yet there must be men, I suppose, who are not successful and are disappointed in their expec- tation of a good income at 40 ?--Yes, there are dis- appointments ; but still it is a career which leads tirst of all to a certain influence, and carries with it a certain respect, and which in the ordinary course of things leads to independence in life. Then the professors are not expected to live as a banker lives. They still know the meaning oilaeta paupertas. 3482. In Germany is a professor appointed to a professorship we will say in philology, or is he ap- pointed to a professorship in one of that very numerous list of branches of philology ? — He is a 2 Jpointed to a branch ; he is appointed, for instance, to liomance, or Slavonic, or Celtic philology. 3483. Or to teach Egyptian antiquities ? — Yes ; Hermann was Professor of Eloquence ; that was the title of his professorship ; he was allowed to lecture on Latin, Greek, History, and so on. 3484. But they have not professorships ordinary and extraordinary divided among all those several branches and to be filled whenever they become vacant, have they? — They try in each university to have a complete staff of professors .and sub-professors so as to take away the excuse from young ment who might say, “ We cannot go to such an university because such and such branches are not represented there.” There- fore each university by hook or by crook tries to get a complete staff. 3485. {Chairman.) To represent every subject of knowledge ? — Yes, as much as possible. 3486. I see that you are prepared to suggest some reconstruction of All Souls’ College with a special view to the Indian Civil Service; perhaps in stating your view upon that subject you will bear in mind that other modes of utilising All Souls’ College have been suggested ; some think it might be used for a college of law, and some would connect it with the Bodleian. Will you state your own view, and your reasons for thinking it preferable to those — I am afraid it is opening a large subject ; however, I will try to say as little as possible. I believe that All Souls’ College is capable of being utilised in different ways, but 1 think it is very desirable in these changes to maintain, if possible, the corporate character of the college. At least those who are now fellows of the college naturally desire that All Souls’ should not entirely disappear from the number of colleges, but to find out some way in which as a college it could be allowed to continue and to render useful service. Therefore, although other people may take perhaps different views, it is natural that as a fellow of the college I should object to being altogether absor-bed by the Bodleian. Some portion of our income might be, and I think might very well be applied to the Bodleian ; but still if All Souls’ is to continue as a college we must try to find some way of utilising it as a college. I do not know what is meant by making All Souls’ a centre of law ; that has never been explained. Of course a centre, as generally explained, is a vanishing point, and unless we know exactly what is to be the circumference, it is difficult to know how far the resources of All Souls’ would be altogether absorbed by- making it a centre of law. But I still think under all those circumstances something would remain to make All Souls’ useful as a college. The buildings will re- main and those buildings ought to be filled, not with jurists only, or with books, but with young men. We may hope that in the course of a very short time, every inducement having been held out a certain number of candidates for the Indian Civil Service will come to Oxford. Those men are not to be older than 18 years of age, and there Lord Salisbury seems to fix the limit at very much the same age which I have mentioned before, when a young man should be fitted by school work to enter the university. It has always been felt that a great loss was sustained by abolishing Haileybury, instead of improving it. There has been a want of that familiar intercourse and mutual know- ledge which formerly existed among the members of the Indian Civil Service, and which is considered very desirable as holding together a number of civil servants scattered over a vast country like India. If those Indian civil servants were to go to the different colleges in the university they would in each college necessitate special jirovisions. Plach college would have to make provision for two or three men. Now it so happens that All Souls’ is empty, and there are no undergraduates for whom we have to provide at pre- sent ; and therefore, there being a tabula rasa, we are more fitted I think to make sjiecial provision for this new class of students than any other college. It would give us less trouble than it would to the 20 other col- leges, if each of them were to make arrangements for receiving those men who have special branches of reading before them, and who also, I suppose, require a somewhat different treatment from ordinaiy under- graduates. That is really all I have to say. In con- sidering what might be made of All Souls’ it should be borne in mind, that there is a class of men who want, as a high authority expresses it, as much as possible to be under the same roof. We have the same roof, and we have empty rooms ; we have also in our libi-ary and in all our arrangements means which might be of particular use to this class of students. I believe the present fellows of the college are disinclined to make such a change, but some members, as you will see from a paper which I hand in, take a very warm in- terest in this question. All I want to say is that before it is handed over body and soul to the Bodleian, or before it is made a centre of law, it should be con- sidered whether it might not be made a jilace to receive men who want to be received in the university, and for whom otherwise special arrangements must be made in each individual college. 3487- Have you formed any idea of the number of Indian civil servants who might be expected to resort to the university if such provision were made ? — I think we may exjject about 30; for the two years there would be 40 in each year ; that makes 80 ; and out of those 80 we may expect 30. 3488. Your view is that they might be received ui^on the footing of undergraduates ? — Yes. 3489. And that the accommodation in the college would be sufficient for that purjiose? — Yes. The report which I handed in has shown that even with- out making the non-resident fellows surrender rooms to which I believe they have little right, there would be a sufficient number of rooms to accommodate that number of Indian civil servants. 3490. By what regulations would you propose to secure the resort of Indian civil servants to that college more than any other ? — By holding out certain advantages ; by, for instance, saying that they should have rooms without paying for them. 3491. {Sir M. W. Ridley.) Would not such a course as that be in fact adding to the Government allow- ance for those two years ? — It would. 3492. Would not that be complained of by other universities in other parts of the United Kingdom who are already rather jealous of such a privilege being possessed by Oxford ? — It would be done by the college and not by the university. I do not think that any- body has a right to blame a college for founding scholar- ships. It would come to this, that you would found a certain number of scholarships which might be very small, but at the same time carry rooms. I think nobody could blame us for doing that. OXFORD. F. Max Muller, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. Dd 4 OXFORD. F. Max Muller, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCli. 34'93. [^Dv. Belhnuy.) Possibly if you made con- venient arrangements for them there would be no otlier inducement required ?— I should tliink so ; and also very likely they might be told by the Civil Service Commissioners that it would be desirable for them, if they go to a university, that they should know (-ach other, and should have a certain amount of social intercourse, because that has been so often mentioned in the reports of Indian civil servants in India, as what they most regret themselves having lost, viz., the opportunity of knowing the men with whom they are afterwards to serve in India. Formerly a man stood up for his friend whom he had known at Hailey- bury when he was in thelurch. Now, we are told, one man w^atches the other, to see who is in the lurch. 3494. (.S*> j\[. Jf . Hidlcy.') Would you confine the undergraduates of All Souls’ entirely to civil servants, or would you think it advisable, giving them the lirst claim, to admit other undergraduates, and do not you think that there would b6 great value in their general association — Generally the association would be just the same. A man who lives at Balliol has just as many friends at Christ Church as he has at Balliol. 1 do not think there is that social isolation at Oxford which would make a man who was at All Souls’ a mere All Souls’ man. But why I should at first hesi- tate about making All Souls’ a general college is exactly what I mentioned before, that we should then have to make provision first for receiving every kind of undergraduate, and secondly for receiving Indian Civil Service undergraduates. 3495. y^ou are a man of experience ; do not you think that a man who is at All Souls’ woidd still associate with his friends in Balliol and Christ Church, and would know what was going on at Christ Church and Balliol ? — Certainly he would. 3496. (il/r. Bernard.) Would that be quite as much the case with those students for the Indian Civil Service, many of whom have not been at the great jtublic schools ? — Some have been at the great public schools — some have not ; but then they would through their friends come to make acquaintances. There is the cricket field, football, and all that, where they all will meet. They are not asked what college they belong to. Besides, some sort of esprit de corps is useful in the Civil Service ; at least many men say so. Those who went to Haileybury seeing nothing but Ilaileybury are still considered in a social point of view as better colleagues in the service than those who have been appointed through competition. 3497. They came, did they not, from one class of jreople, that is to say, they were to a large extent the sons or connexions of old Indian servants? — Yes; but they did not know each other before they came to Ilaileybury. 3498. Does not that give a guarantee for the class? — Yes, no doubt. 3499. Do you know whether there are many at Oxford now studying for the Indian service ? — I am told about 11 or 12; they are scattered about. Of course for certain purposes they must combine. Only a few days ago one came to me, and said that he wanted instruction in Telugu. Another, who wanted the same instruction for next term, told me that it was most inconvenient their belonging to different colleges. The arrangements of each college interfere with the special Indian lectures ; whereas if they were all in the same college that difficulty would not exist. 3500. {Chairman.) 'Fhe last point is as to the Taylor Institution ; we understand that the Taylor curators met on the 27th of this month and nominated yourself and Mr. Kitchin as their representatives to communicate with the Commission. Have you any information to give the Commission as to the working or as to the wants of that institution ? — I believe from what Mr. Kitchen says that he has told you really all that could be said upon the subject. The only thing that I might add is that with regard to modern languages that system which I have very imperfectly tried to lay before you of utilising the fellowships, would apply to them. I should like to see certain fcllow’ships a.esigucd to modoni langaagcs. m.aii having received such a fellowship should be obligoil to spend a certain number of years abroad in order to make himself j)erfect, not only in tin; speaking of the language, but in the history, literature, and a general knowledge of the country. 3501. Does anything else occur to you as capable of being usefully done to promote the study of modern languages, such for example as French and German, the languages most extensively useful, in Oxford ? — Nothing, 1 believe, could be done there, as in many other points in faaratus for teaching chemical physics. The work done by the laboratory falls under two heads, viz.: — (1) lectures given to members of the college; (2) to members of the uni- versity and others. The instruction given in physics comprises a complete course of elementary mathe- matics and physics, given by the Millard lecturer of Trinity College, adapted to the wants of candidates for the preliminary honour examination of the Physical Science School. In addition to this he undertakes the private instruction of candidates for honours in ])hysics. A course of lectures is given by myself illustrated by experiments, adapted to the wants of candidates for the preliminary honour examination in chemistry. Comhined w ith this course I adopt the practice of private attention to the particular wants of each individual student. The candidates for honours in chemistry receive instruction from a tutor in chemistry furnished by a combining college. In regard to biology the candidate for honours receives such help from me in comparative anatomy and general philosophy of the subject as I deem necessary. In physiology and physiological chemistry a complete course of instruction has been organized within the last three years by Mr. Yule, my brother tutor. The lectures themselves, so far as they relate to pure physiology, are such as have not been before delivered in Oxford. The cabinet of apparatus is extensive, and is the only one of the kind in Oxford. The lectures I have mentioned above are free to members of Merton, Magdalen, and Trinity Colleges, and have been largely attended by men from other colleges, especially from Exeter, Jesus, and Wadham. As regards the teaching of advanced physiologjq I believe that Mr. Y'ule is supplying a need which has been for some time felt in the university, and the subject is, I consider, worthy of extension. I may further say that, should the Commissioners think it necessary to visit any buildings wdiere scientific instruction is being carried on, w'e trust that they will not omit to include the Magdalen College Laboratory. In conclusion, I beg to call attention to the intercollegiate .system of lectures which has had its centre, so to speak, at Magdalen College Laboratoiy. Its object has been a division of labour between professorial and tutorial teaching, and between universit}' and college labora- tories. An example of its working will explain the system. On the first Monday after the colleges meet, the combined tutors in physics, chemistiy, and biology meet at the laboiatoiy, where the students pursuant to notice given in the University Gazette assemble, and severally receive from the tutor in each branch direction as to their studies for the term. Mlth the professors’ notices before them, such arrangements are made as will prevent waste of powder or clashing of lectures, the subjects being, as far as possible, chosen UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 221 to avoid any special course which may he going on at tlie nuiseuin, but always ])roviding an elementary course for beginners, and tliose prci)aring for the j)re- liininary honour examinations. In addition to tins each tutor devotes special attention to the needs of candidates for honours in this particular subject. The combined system of which I have spoken includes Magdalen as represented by iryself and Mr. Yule, Merton by Mr. I’ikc, and Trinity College by Mr. Fletcher, the Millard lecturer ; by arrangement, Jesus and Wadhain Colleges also participate. My object is to show how college tutors and college laboratories might be made useful to assist the professors, espe- cially in the elementary teaching which is carried on at the museum ; and secondly how these laboratories might be made useful as places of research. The Royal Commissioners of 1873 in their repoiT strongly urge the appointment by the colleges of lecturers in natural science and the grouping together of colleges for such lecture puiposes. They also advised that laboratories should not be erected in every college but that there should be groups of colleges which should make use of these individual laboratories. My view is that a great deal of good can be done and is done by such laboratories as are nov/ in existence, such as those at Christ Church and Magdalen. I think they should work from the museum, the museum being the great centre and those laboratories being outlying branches of it and working with it. I think they are useful, first of all as collecting men and teaching them and forwarding them to the museum for instruction there, and also as taking the elementary part of the instruction which is a great burden at present upon the professors to undertake. It has been, I believe, urged against the college system that it is a waste and duplication of expense in the way of apparatus, and so on. I have to say in answer to that, that the apparatus required for the elementary teaching is not very expensive, and when it is onee obtained it is of a permanent character, and not liable to much w'ear and tear; whereas of course the appa- ratus reqiured for the higher branclies is very expen- sive and would naturally be placed in the university museum. As to these laboratories being places of research they seem to me to be very much adapted for that, because I may take such an instance as the laboratory at Christ Church from which I beheve has proceeded more original research by Mr. Ilarcourt than from any other laboratory in the university. From the laboratory in Magdalen College certain papers have already proceeded from my brother lec- turer, Mr. Yule, and I have no doubt that more work will be done in his own special line. 3566. Do you think that the college laboratories and teachers have a positive advantage over the uni- versity teachers in promoting research, or is it only that the individuals who have been engaged in Christ Church and in Magdalen have been in fact active in research ? — I think that they have been active in research, and I think their advantages have been some- what greater because, owing to the privacy of their own laboratory, they have not been so to speak over- whelmed by the flood of people requiring instruction who pour through the university laboratories. 3567. Do many men from the other colleges come to the courses of teaching given at Magdalen ?— Yes, a considerable number, 70 members of other colleges have passed through the Magdalen laboratory from 1869 to 1877. That is below the mark, because the late Millard lecturer in physics is now at Middles- borough ; he left about two years ago, and I have not been able to obtain his register. 3568. At the present time, what are the numbers ? — The number at present belonging to Magdalen college is 14 and from the other colleges 12. That is also a little below the mark because we are only now in the third week of term, and these numbers were made up in the second week of term ; and I should say the number would be 15. 3569. Would that be a fair average of the numbers who have attended every term ? — I should say it would be a little below the average, for tins reason, that in 1869, that was the y'car wdien I wuis made tutor at Magdalen, I thitde there was only one man studying phycsical science in Magdalen. Of course as years went on the comjtetition for demysiiips became greater, and the numbers now are greater than they were for the first three or four years : for the first two or three- years the numbers. were small. 3570. (J/r. Bernard.) With respect to the greater facilities for original research, is it that having smaller chesses you are better able to pursue particular lines of teaching and study, or that you have more leisure for such pursuits, not having so large a number of men to superintend or teach ? — I should think that probably both those causes might come into operation, and I shoiilil think the major cause might j)robably be the greater independence that a college tutor has. 3571. {Chairman.) Is much of the work of research carried on out of teaching hours ? — Almo.st the whole of it ; it must be so. I have myself found that with continuous teaching research is almost impossible, for the simple reason that it requires uninterrupted time. 3572. Then there are more hours unoccupied by official duty in the college than there would be in the university museum ? — It would act in this way ; in a college a man as a rule resides, his laboratory is close to him, and he can get to it at all hours, whereas the university laboratory would be closed probably at 4 o’clock in the afternoon. 3573. Work is not practically carried on in the uni- versity laboratory after 4 o’clock ? — Speaking gene- rally, I believe not. 3574. Ihitit is carried on in the college laboratory after that hour? — Yes, repeatedly. Last winter a course of lectures was given to a class of artisans from half-past 7 o’clock to 10. I may add that 1 al.t every E e 3 OXFORD. I'i. Chapman, Esq., M.A., and C. .7. F. Yule, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. 222 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. E. Chapman, Esq., M.A and C. J. F. Yule, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. year, and one a year at least was given for rome time ; but the competition lias increased so much that for four years two, I think, have been given, and last June three demyships in natural science were given. 3581. {Sir M. TV. Ridley. ) What are they worth? — 95/. a year. 3582. And rooms ? — Inclusive of rooms. If I may add one other fact which has struck me, one use of the teaching of this college laboratory, I think, is shown in that every man has to pass through the preliminary honour examination which includes a quantity of me- chanics and physics which the men cannot, or at all events, do not learn for themselves. The numbers who went in in June 1876 were 26 from colleges where this subject was taught, and 26 passed. 11 went in from colleges which did not supply this tuition, and six only passed. 3583. {Mr. Bernard.) Will you be good enougb to explain what you mean by the preliminary honour examination to which you refer ? — The preliminary honour examination is an examination held at the same time as the hnal honour examination in the pliysical science schools, through which every candidate for honours is obliged to pass. They may pass it at any time after moderations. 3584'. ( Chairman. ) It is a sort of test examination independently of the subjects which they take up ? — It is an examination in cliemistry and mechanics .and physics which is supposed to be tlie basis of physical science teaching, and no one who cannot pass that is allowed to proceed to a further examination. 3585. {Mr. Bernard.) I suppose that for advanced teaching in physics a man must resort to the physical laboratory at the museum, must he not ? — He must resort to the physical laboratory. 3586. The plant to be found tliere, I presume, is such as you could not possibly establish in a college ? — It is too expensive, nor do I think it would be desir- able to establish it at any college. 1 think it ought to be at the central university museum. 3587. In the case of chemistry, is that so to the same extent or to a somewhat less extent ? — I think it is so to a much less extent. It is (Uiite ])ossible that a man might read for the honours course in chemistry in a college laboratory, in fact they do so at Christ Church. Still my men for the advanced honours course go to the museum, and I see that they go there, and I ascertain what work they liave done there. I may add also that the college pays the university museum the fees of each member of the college up to 10/. per annum per man of the |)hysical science students. The payment is subject to the discretion of their tutor ; that is to say, I go there ; I receive a report from the professors ; I find out what the men have been doing; and if a man has not in my opinion earned his fee, it is not paid, if for instance he has only attended half the number of days, or anything of that kind. 3588. {Sir M. TV. Ridley.) Does that extend to the commoners ? — Any member of a college wlio is studying natural science at the museum will have his fees paid up to 10/. We consider that sufficient. 3589. {Mr. Bernard.) The Magdalen Physical Science School acts in your opinion as a feeder to the great Physical .Science School at the museum ? — It does in my opinion. I know one instance myself of a man from another college who but for the fact of physical science having been placed before him would never have gone into that school ; he had arrived at moderations being a good mathematician, and had no notion that such a study existed. I put it before him that physics would be a good second string to his bow, so to speak, he being a mathematician, and I strongly advised him to take up that study. He became so suc- cessful afterwards that he is now fellow of his college for Physical Science, and holds a post at the British Museum. 3590. ( Chairman.) Can you suggest anj' changes which would bring the college instruction in those subjects into closer connexion w'ith the museum and which might be desirable? — I do not knotv that I have any suggestion to ofter. I think the tutors them- selves might arrange with the professors for a joint scheme by which the professors might relegate, say, some of the elementary teaching to the college tutors. 3591. Do you think that some university regulations could be made which might accomplish that object? — I have not thought of any. As a matter of legisla- tion it would be difficult, I am afraid. It lias been a case of demand and supply so far. 3592. With regard to the prize demyships which you have mentioned, how are the examinations con- ducted for those ? — The examination is put into my hands as senior tutor. Professor Odling is Waynflete Professor, and the terms of his appointment oblige him to take part, when asked, in the college examina- tions, he would therefore examine in chemistry, the Millard Lecturer in physics, who is also in combination, would examine in physics, and I should examine in biology. That would be a board of thi-ee examiners. We should conduct the examination and report to the college on those whom we thought tlie best fit for elec- tion. When I say “ the college,” I believe in Magdalen the electors are certain officers of the college ; they would elect at the college meeting and they have in- variably elected the meti whom we have sent up as worthy of election. 3593. Is it all competitive examination ? — Purely so ; the examination lasts about four days. 3594. A suggestion has been made that prizes of that sort might perhaps be better given as a reward for work done in the university, or say in some labora- tory, under the eye of a i)rofessor and selected by the professor without examination; do you think that would be a better thing ? — I do not think it would work practically, because those candidates for the demyship must by the statutes not have completed their twentieth year, and they are mainly drawn from the schools of the country. I do not see that a boy of 16 or 17 could have given any evidence to a nro- fessor in the university of original work done inside the university. 3595. It would of course alter the class from which they were taken ? — Completely. 3596. Do you think that that would be desirable ? — I do not think it would, because the majority of those candidates for demyships are very poor, in fact 1 know many cases where men have been supported entirely by their demyships. One I have in view now who has taken his class, and is using the remains of his demyship to enable him to enter a London Hospital. 3597. Do you think that the age should be as late as 20 ? — I think that 20 is a reasonable limit, 3598. {Mr. Bernard.) Those demyships are gained by persons desiring to enter the university, are they not ? — -Certainly ; they are pure scholarships by com- petitive examination. 3599. {Sir M. TV. Ridley.) Do you give them for proficiency in one of those subjects, or for proficiency in all three ? — The examination is in chemistry, physics, and ffiology. The candidate is advised to offer any two, and not to offer more, and you get all possible combinations of chemistry and physics, or physics aiid biology, or chemistry and biology. 3600. {Mr. Bernard.) What class of persons are they for the most |tart who obtain those demyships, are they young men who have been at the great schools? — They come chiefly from the Manchester Grammar School, from Owen’s College, Manchester, from Clifton School, from the London Hospitals, and from the Magdalen College School, Oxford. Those are the chief centres. Others would come from private tuition. 3601. Some perhaps, and especially those who came from jtrivate tuition, would find a difficulty in coming up to Oxford so early in life as boys coming from school commonly do, would they not ? — Those that come from private tuition I should say are generally richer than those who coim; from the schools ; those who come from the Manchester Grammar School are invariably poor, I may saj', very poor. UNIVERSITY OF OXFOIiO COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 223 3602. ])() you know to wliat those men commonly look in after life ? — Those who go in for physics generally try to get the mastership of some school, several go into the London hospitals to enter the medical profession. Some have become managers of chemical works in the north of England. 3603. There is a very large demand, is there not, now for chemical ability and acquirements in the north of England? — 1 believe there is. If they can get a man who has a practical acquaintance with chemistry and physics, he will command bis price, as the saying is. 3604. Do you yourself think that we are sending out many men from Oxford to fill those places in the manufacturing districts ? — I do not think we are sending as many as we ought. Of course there is strong competition now with us in Manchester in Owen’s College, because they are endeavouring to supply the best physical science education they can. 3605. {Chairman.) Have you any suggestions to offer to the Commissioners as to the wants of the Natural Science School in the university generally ? — I had not thought of that for my present examina- tion, because I confined myself more to the relation between the tutors and the professors. 3606. You probably know what has been recom- mended by the Hebdomadal Council ? — I have not seen it quite recently, but I have seen it. I have been an examiner in that school myself, and I have thought a good deal about it, but I am not prepared to-day to go into that. 3607. {To Mr. Yule.) Your duty, I think, is chiefly in the teaching of physiology ? — I have made that mainly my subject. 3608. Is it such teaching in ph'-'^V)logy as isconnecled with anatomy and would be introductory to the medical schools? — It would be decidedly introductory to the medical schools, but it would be also teaching physiology more satisfactorily by the f)iactical method than it is usually taught in the university, because it occupies a large part of the biological examination, and has to be got up almost entirely (with the exception of my practical teaching) from books. 3609. Are the experiments or the demonstrations which you conduct, to any extent upon living sub- jects ? — One large branch would, of course, he almost purely chemical, connected with digestion, and the tissues of the body, and so forth. Another large part would be upon tissues removed from animals whilst they still possessed their vital properties, that is to say, that an animal would be suddenly killed, and if a muscle or a nerve is removed from the body immediately, it retains most of the properties which it had whilst it remained still in the body when the animal was alive. Another large branch of experi- ments would, of course, be performed on animals under antcsthetics. 3610. Are the students attending your leetures chiefly drawn from the college and the university ? I think I understood that you sometimes gave lectures to which the educated artisans came ? — 4'hose lectures to the artisans would be rather beside the question ; they are not in any way connected with the university. This term I think 1 have 1 1 men, of whom eight belong to other colleges, to Exeter, Christ Church, and Wadham, and some others. 3611. Are those, so far as you know, or any of them, actually preparing for the medical ptofession ? — 1 could really hardly say what their views are ; they probably are some of them. 3612. How long have you been lecturing ?— Nearly four years. 3613. Has any considerable number of your students passed to the medical schools ? — Yes, several; but my teaching is modelled with a view to the university, and not to the future medical requirements of the students. I will hand in a statement of the work which I am this term actually doing with the members of the university for the schools {Mr. Yule handed in the following statement^. “Michaelmas Term, 1877. — Circhlation and Respiration. “ Practical Work. “ Circulation. “1. Study of normal circulation in frog’s web. Observe arteries, capillaries, and veins, and the pecu- liarities of the circulation in each. Ligature the limb, cut the nerve.s, and observe the behaviour of the arteries. “2. Dissect and master the anatomy of the frog s heart. “ Neriious Mechanism of the Heart. “ 3. Study of the action of the excised heart of a fish or tortoise. “ a. With the heart uninjured. “ h. Divide aui'icles from ventricles, bisect auricle vertically, and subdivide each half. “ c. Bisect ventricle, vertically and transversely, and study result. “rf. Examine under a low power small bits of the heart, taken from various parts of the auricle, ventricle, and sinus venosus. “ e. Effect of constant current. “/i Effect of interrupted current. “ 4. Study the movements of the heart in the frog. “ 5. Study the effect of temperature on the beat of the frog’s heart, and calculate the amount of work done at various temperatures. “ 6. Staminus, experiment Nos. 2, 3, 4, 5 ; inhibitory nerves of the heart. “7. Stimulation of the principal peripheral pneumo- gastric of (he frog. “8. Stimulation of the peripheral pnenmogastric in a. mammal, the blood pressure being registered by Pick’s kymographion, and the latent period estimated. Study the general form of the trace. “ 9. a. Administer atropine, and again stimulate the vagus ; note 'the paralysis of the inhibitory apparatus. “ Administer pilocarpin, and when the heart ceases to beat, restore the heat by atropine. Administer nicotine, and note the slowing of the heart; after recovery stimulate the vagus (no effect) then administer muscarin, and note the restoration of the inhibitory apparatus. “ c. Accelerator fibres of the vagus (frog) ; adminis- ter -002 grains of nicotine and stimulate vagus. “ 10. Stimulation of the nervi mesenterici in the frog. Bernstein’s experiment. “ Accelerator nerves of the heart. “11. Study the effect of the ‘ accelerator nerves. “N.B. — A careful dissection must be previously made. “ The vascular arrangements, physical and ner- vous properties of the blood vessels. “ 12. Take tracings from a vascular schema (or pump with elastic tube) at different distances from the pump, and compare them with those obtained from the sphygmograph in the previous experiment, and analyse tie traces so obtained. “ 13. Take a normal tracing of blood pressure (from rabbit) with Ludwig’s kymographion, and analyse it. “ 14. Take a tracing from the same rabbit with Pick’s kymographion, and compare it with the former. “ 15. Take tracings from the sphygmograph, and the sphygmograph and cardiograi>h simultaneously. “16. Effect of changes in blood pressure on the frequency of the heart’s beat. “ 17. Direct excitation of the spinal cord in the frog. “ 18. Direct excitation of a sensory nerve (the sciatic j. “ 19. Demonstration of the functions of the (de- pi'essor nerve (rabbit).” 3614. Are all those who attend your lectures bona fide students of the subject, or do any seem to come from curiosity ? — I should say that they are all without E e 4 OXFORD, E. Chapman, Esq., M.A ,, and C. J. F. Yule, Esq. M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. 224 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, OXFORD. E. Chapvian, Esq., M.A., and C. J. F. Yule, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. B. L. Ncttleship, Esq., M.A. exception bona fide stuclents wlio will take the subject into the schools, and most of them are men who pro- mise very well. 3(115. Do you desire to make any suggestion as to the wuiking of the system, or as to any improvements which you would recommend ? — One or two things I think 1 “hould like to point out with regard to the college laboratories, and this laboratory in particular. I think with Mr. Chapman that, of course, it is the duty of the college tutors to prepare their men for these preliminary examinations ; but, in addition to that, I think the colleges might very well teacli honour sultjects where there is no provision made for lho«e subjects at the museum. For instance, at the museum the amount of space which is given to pure physiology is very small, and I think I might almost say that no attem[)t is made to teach the subject except from the chemical side. On the other hand the college has, since I have been there, made several grants to support this subiect, and the laboratory is of considerable size and very' commodious for the work. I cannot think that the'work would be better done, or that there would be any advantage gained if the whole laboratory were removed bodily to the museum, because in doing that subject a man would require a morning to do any good work. It is not merely a matter of lecture, it is a matter in which they must sit down and study the thing at length. 3616. {Mr. Bernard.) Work done by your men, as I understand, is not ^yholly or chiefly elementary? — No, it is advanced entirely. 3617. All your work is of the advanced kind? — Yes, this syllabus is as high work as men could pos- sibly be required to know in the schools. 3618. Do any of your men attend likewise lectures on physiology at the museum? — Yes they' attend some lectures on physiology, and do all their comparative anatomy' there. Tl'.e witnesi 3619. But for this particular branch they' attend you ? — Yes ; at least I may say for the exjrerimental part of it. Dr. Kolleston, of course, gives very valu- able lectures on the subject. 3620. Is there anyone else in the uni^■ersity w ho conducts these experimental lectures on tissues and on the living animal ? — I should say not. There is no other establishment in the university which is at present in a position to do so from the want of instru- ments, and so forth. 3621. At the museum is that done at all ? — I should repeat my former statement that the teaching at the museum is usually conllncd to the chemical side of physiology. 3622. I think I understood you to say that all your experiments on the living animal are conducted under amTsthetics ? — Yes, the laboratory here is licensed under the Act for experiments on animals, and I liold a certificate for showing experiments on animals under ana;sthetics in illustration of the lectures ; and, besides, that, I hold a certificate for experiments on animals under anesthetics for my own research. I hold no other certificates. 3623. That does not authorise you, therefore, to conduct any experiments on living animals without the use of anesthetics ? — No ; I should be breaking the law if I conducted any such experiments. 3624. ( Chairman.) The law also requires an animal which would suffer pain, if it survived the experiment, to be killed, does it not ? — Yes ; and I alw ays adhere to that. 3625. So that no exhibition of a painful character ever takes place before the students ? — I take the greatest care that they shall never see the animal in pain at all. 3626. You agree, I presume, generally with what you have heard stated by Mr. Chapman ? — Yes ; I think I agree very fully in what he says. s withdrew. R. L. Nettleshii’, Esq., M.A. (Fellow of Balliol College), e.xainined. 3627. (Chairman.) I see on the paper which you have been so good as to hand in that the first point upon which you desire to observe is the expediency of instituting university readerships in connexion with the subjects of the School of Literae Humaniores. Will you favour us with your views upon that point? — As to the institution of university readers in con- nexion with the subjects of the Schools of Liter® Humaniores, the sum of the remarks which I would venture to offer is contained in the two propositions that, on the one hand, I think such institution extremely desirable and necessary, on the other I think, that in order to be really fruitful it must be accompanied by other ehanges in the method of university study, and therefore of the university examinations. The proposal for a body of teachers appointed and paid by the university, who should in some manner mediate between the college tutors and the university profes.sors, has been usuall}' made with the view of meeting certain disadvantages supposed to inhere in the present system of university etluca- tion. Different persons will think differently of the precise nature of those disadvantages, but 1 imagine that nearly all who feel their existence at all will agree that they concern in some way or other the relations betw'een the colleges and the university re- garded as educational bodies. I will say at once that I am no enemy of what I understand by the college system as it exists, but I will try to explain as clearly as I can why, as a college tutor myself, I think that it requires supplementing and developing. The college tutor is above all things a college officer. V\ hat he teaches, and how he teaches, must be determined in the main by the past traditions and the present re- quirements of the institution to which he primarily belongs. This institution is, from the nature of the case, limited. Whether it does its work well or ill, it remains a college, and however much it may aspire to be a university it can never he more than a university in miniature. The result of this is that the college tutor, though he lives in and is a niember of a university, hardly realises the fact exccjjt when he is called upon to take ]iart in the university administration. The intellectual atmosphere which he breathes is not that of the university, but that of his college. The teach- ing organisation of which he is a member, is not one which covers the whole range of (he subject of which be is studying and teai hinga pait. It is an association of from five to ten men, the constiiution of which depends upon the particular demands of the college and upon the means which it has of meeting those demands. From this follows what I have called the isolation, and consequent waste of power, in the position of the college tutor. lie is but little affected by the intellectual movement which is going on round him in other parts of the university ; he has but little of the invigorating feeling that he is working along wu’th many fellow w'orkers in the field of knowledge. And if he is thus to a great extent cut off from co-operation with his equals, still more is it the case that he is cut off from healthy subordination to his superiors. He is ol'ten a young man ; he is nearly always young when he begins his career; he comes to his wmrk with hardly any preparation, and his methods must be de- rived mainly from reminiscences of those pursued by his old college tutors. The natural authorities toxvhom he should turn for guidance are the professors of the university ; but except personal friendship there is nothing to bring him into relations with them, nor is any organisation provided by wdiich he can naturally approach them. Closely connected with this state of things is the waste of intellectual pow'er which I venture to think is incident to the present college system of teaching. It is true that many colleges have combined for the purposes of lecturing in a way which might be expected to obviate such a waste. The college to UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION; MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 225 wliicli I lu'loiij; is so conihincd with five other colleges, ;uid il is natural to suppose that the work would liave l)een so divided between the united lectures as to secure that nearly all the subjects connected with the schools should ho represented in the lectures. E.x- peritnee lias shown, however, that this is not the ease. In the list of lectures issued by the six colleges for the present term it is found that six lectures arc being given on one hook (Aristotle’s Ethics), four of them upon the same part of the hook ; and it will he found generally that few hut the most necessary books are ever lectured upon in these colleges, whether for the School of Classical Moderations or for the Final Classical School. It will doubtless he said that this lact is in itself enough to show that the colleges at any rate do not feel the want of any other teaching organisation than that which they already supply. Yet 1 shall probably be right in saying that in every one of the six colleges to which I have referred there are men who are really anxious to advance some branch of knowledge more than they now are able to do, and who might do so if better organised and trained, without being supposed to he either geniuses or prodigies of learning. And I believe that one reason why the combination of tlie colleges in (juestion has hitherto produced so little result has been that, while ])rohahly many of their lectures are such as, with slight changes, might he given by university readers, there are none which are formally recognised as having such a character. I can easily conceive that if one or more of the college lecturers now lecturing on the same subject were placed in the position of university reader in that subject, the colleges would be content that the other lecturers should leave the more elaborate treatment of the subject to the reader, confining themselves to the im|)ortant work of catechetical teaching in it, and thus possibly finding time themselves for the more thorough study of some other kindred subject. It seems not unreasonahle to suppose tliat a judicious appointment of university readers would go far to obviate the disadvantages of the college system which I have indicated. The work of the various readers would he (in accordance with the proposal ofthelleh- domadal Council), a})pointed by com|)eteiit authority in .such a way as would avoid useless du))licales of lectures, while it would slimulate the lecturers by the consciousness of co-operation. They would heat the same time in communication with the professors, and would he working under the giudance of the best authority to be had in their respective subjects. I do not think, howx'ver (and this brings me to my second point), that the whole ground of the dis- satisfaction which college tutors, or others for them, feel in their jmsition would be removed by the mere appointment of university readers. I cannot but think that another ground than those which I have referred to is to be found in the character of the subjects wdiich they are required to teach, and here I refer especially to the subjects of the Final School of Litene IlumanioVcs. The nature of those subjects seems to me to he such as to stimulate both teacher and taught to he con- stantly advancing, while on the other hand the con- ditions under which they have to he studied are constantly keeping them back. After many vicissi- tudes, during which the Final Classical School has retained its name and changed its substance, it has arrived at the form which it now presents in the Statute Book. Once a School of Classical Literature, studied perhaps somewhat exclusively from its more ])urely literary side, it has thrown off the literary element to starve in the Moderations School, while it has itself taken up in its course growing accretions of ancient history and of ancient and modern philoso- phy. The increasing interest with which its various subjects have begun to be studied of late by college lecturers (an interest wdiich cannot he denied of them by their severest critics), has contributed to weight still further the already heavy material of which know- ledge is expected in this examination. Ijcctures have tended to become less iuini(;rous hut more elaborate Q 0223. as lecturers have come to he more and more conscious of the width of their subjects, and this has reacted in its turn upon the examination itself. The last attempt to reconstitute the Final Classical School bore witness to the various and growing demands of the teacliing body of the colleges and university. The framers of the last examination statute found themselves, willingly' or unwillingly, compelled to give a nominal place in the statute to the various branches of know- ledge which had been gradually gaining recognition under the shadow of Literaj Ilumaniores. I say a nominal j)lace, for everyone who is practically ac- quainted with the working of the statute knows that the magnificent list of voluntary' and extra subjects which a|>pears in it is little more than a dead letter. Practically speaking, the necessary subjects of the examituition are so extensive in themselves, and offer such a copious material for elaborate lectures, that none hut undergraduates of special attainments can think of going outside them. Still I venture to think that the l)are recognition of such special subjects in the university statute marks an imj)ortant epoch in the histoi'y of university studies. It marks an epoch at which the desire for a wider and deeper study of ancient literature and history and of ancient and modern j)hilosophy has become articulate, if not in practice, at least upon j>aper, while at the same time it brings home to the mind of those who are engaged in teaching, the impossibility of satisfying this desire under the jiresent conditions of the school. The fruit of increased knowledge has been placed before the eyes of teachers and taught; hut it is still a for- bidden fruit, and one of the results is a prevalence of that intellectual excitement and unrest which, while it has the j)romise of results in the future, is perhaps the least liivourable condition for production in the present. The hearing of this upon the appointment of university readers seems to me to be this; it leads to the conclusion that their mere institution will not of necessity mend matters at all. And what I cannot help fearing is that we may have a number of men appointed who will drain the colleges of their best teachers, and the university chest of its money, and end by giving to ignorant outsiders an additional grouncl for the scolf, that Oxford is a place where men are j)aid for doing nothing. F’or so long as the final examination remains as imperative and as and)itious in its refiuirements as it now is, a reader will have only two alternatives, to lecture on the same subjects and in the same way :ts the present college tutor, (in w'hich case he had better have been a college tutor,) or to lecture on different subjects and in a different way, in W'hich case he w ill have no audience ; and this not merely or principally because there are no students who w'ould care to attend his lectures, but because the regular curriculum of the school makes such demands upon the attention of even the ablest and most enthu- siastic of them. If it he asked how' the present Final School might he modified so as to make the institution of readers a really fruitful one, I think that it would not he difficult to find an answer, at least as concerns the general principle of the modification. If the present school were first reduced to the dimensions of such a school of Classical Antiquity as would form a worthy completion to what ought to be the studies of our best public schools, it might he taken at the end of (say) three years from matriculation, and form the examination for the ordinary degree. Then, out of the appendages of the existing school, might he fornn d a more advanced school in the three subjects of philology, philosophy, and history, any one or more than one of which might he taken up (say) two years later by the few hut imj)ortant persons who wished to become teachers, or had other special motives for pursuing those studies. In connexion with this latter e.xamination a second degree of Master or Doctor might be given, and perhaps there with fel- lowships awarded by the university to individuals w'ho s])ccially distinguished themselves, on condition of (heir giving evidence that they were coiuinuing their studies. By some such i>lan as this it would F f ( IXFORD. R.L. Neltleship, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 18/7. 22G rXTVERSITY OF OXFORD C0M:UTSST0N : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. 7?. L. Ncltleship, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. seem as if two important objects might be attained; tb.e one, that of having an examination for the uni- versity degree, tvhicli should be tliorougli as far as it w ent, and should neither overtax the capacities of the average student, nor overstimulate those of lirst-rate ability; the other, that of enabling those who wished to itur^ue important studies, to do so tranquilly and methodically. At the same time the teaching body of the colleges and the university woidd be able to organise themselves better, with the view of providing the twm kinds of teaching, each of which is equally neces.sary, that which may be called private and catechetical, and that which may be called public and professorial. 3628. I understand that you would confine the examination for the first degree in Literis Ilunia- nioribus, to the Latin and Greek languages and classical archmology ? — Yes. 3629. I jn-esume that you would abolish the present moderations, and bring that forward to the third year ? — Yes. 3630. {Dr. Bcllann/.) Would you exclude history and philosophy altogether from the schools ? — I would only wish them to be studied in so far as anvone who reads Latin and Greek must necessarily read the works of historians and of philosophers. 3631. {Sir 31. JV. liidlcy.) Do 1 correctly under- stand you to mean that for three years after matri- culation, a man is to go on doing nothing but Greek and Latin for the final school? — Yes, that was my idea. I cannot conceive that an intelligent study of the poetry, oratory, history, and philosophy of classical antiquity, if supplemented by those subsidiary studies to which it legitimately leads, would not be enough to occupy profitably for three years anybody who had already spent much of his time at school in the study of the classics. 3632. {Chairman.) Would you give him any choice of other subjects at all, such as modern history or law ? — I thought those schools w’ould co-exist with this. I do not mean to exclude philosophy at all. 3363. {Sir 31. JF. Ridley.) Would you propose to establish a cognate school, say in philosophy or history, at the expiration of three years ? — As sub- jects, I would keep these entirely for the later school. 363h. Then there would be no opportunity of stu- dying such matters as philosophy, or history, cr logic, afforded to people who were going away to the business of life after three years ? — I should suppose that they would study Plato and Aristotle, and that they' would read Thucydides and Tacitus. I should suppose that they would study them a great deal better than the same or similar books are now studied for moderations. 363.5. What object would they have in doing so ? you would admit for instance no illustration from moilern history of Tacitus or Thucydides? — I would admit it, but 1 wmuld make the jiriniary object the study of antiquity. 3636. {Chairman.) In fact that rvould bring back the Literao Ilumaniores School, very much to the condition in which it was in this university some years ago, would it not? — Very much so. But I .should wish that the great advances made during the last halfcentury in the studies of philology, archmology, and other branches of classical knowledge, should be more adequately represented in the school than they have been either before or since the institution of moderations. 3637. {3lr. Bernard.) Would you prohibit a can- didate from going in for this examination before the expiration of three years, or would you allow him to pass it if he could at an earlier period ? — I should not object to make it tw'o years and a half, but I would rather that it was not shorter than that. 3638. Supposing that a man wished to devote him- self to other studies of a more special or different kind, you would not allow him to devote himself to those studies, until either three years or two years and a h.df after he first came to Oxford ? — No. Of course understanding that there was a School of INIodern History, and a School of T.aw, and a School of Science alongside of this school : not at all inter- fering with Hie existing schools. I am only speaking of the School of Jdterm Ilumaniores. 3639. {Chairman .) With regard to those who went into the Modern History, or Law, or Science School, abolishing moderations, you would rely, .-so fin- as other attainments might be necessary on the examination for responsions? — Yes, I should wish to have a good entrance examination. 364'0. {Sir 31. JF. Ridley.) An university entrance examination ? — Yes. 364-1. {Dr. Bellamy.) At what period after the degree would you put ymur second examination in philosophy and history, or whatever it might be ? — I think about two years. 3642. You would cut off a great many men from the possibility of going into these schools, would you not, by putting them twm years later? — Yes, I think there are comparatively few" merr who would be likely to go on to them. 3643. Even a man w"ho w'as going to be a school- master, w'ould hardly be able to sacrifice five years, would he ? — 1 should have thought that a man who was going to be a schoolmaster in a really first-iate school, would be able to do so and ought to do so. 3644. ( Chairman.) May we pass now to what you would suggest as to the mode of electing readers ? — I feel great difficulty in suggesting anything very definite with regard to that. It is an extremely important point as everybody in Oxford know"s. No machinery is of any use at all, unless you can secure some tolerably satisfactory mode of election, 'fhe only thing that I should venture to suggest, is that, so far as I see, the most natural mode would be to use the Boards of Studies, and perhaps that the C.'rown should with the advice of the Boards of Studies elect in the resjrective subjects. 3645. Would you apply the principle of Crown appointment to readers as w'cll as to professors ? — I should be myself inclined to leave the appointment of readers to the Boards of Studies themselves, but to have the professors ap|)ointed by the Crown, with the advice of the Boards of Studies. 3646. With regard to the position of the readers in the colleges to which they may belong, you have I believe something to suggest ? — The Hebdomadal Council 1 think suggested that college tutors who might be appointed to readerships should be allowed to retain their college tutorships. My ow'u opinion is rather that it would lie better if they were entirely separated from their colleges. 3647. {Dr. Bellamy.) You contemplate their lecturing to men bet'.veen their third and their fifth years? — I thought that if, as the Hebdomadal Council suggested, each reader gave tw "0 courses of lectures, they should be of different sorts, and that it should be made known that they whereof different sorts, the one more catechetical, the other more professorial. 3648. {Chairman.) One motive for that suggestion, as we understand, was to increase fhe value of fhe jjosition ? — Y"es, I think there is a dangerous side to that, that of course it would be in the power of any college to increase almost indefinitely the salary of such a reader. It might possibly lead to abuses. I was not, however, thinking so much of that, but what I was thinking more of w as that it would be very difficult to secure that the college did not usurp the services of the reader. 3649. Y’ou are probably aware that it has been suggested by the Hebdomadal Council that readerships shall be tenable with college tutorships and lecture- ships, but that the readers shall not take such an amount of college work as would interfere w ith the duties of their readerships ; do 3 "ou think that would be a blatter easy to regulate ? — No, it is one w Inch I think it svould be difficult to regulate. 3650. {31r. Bernard.) If the change that you propose in the examinations should not be adopted, would 3 'ou still think it desirable that a class of readers should be appointed as proposed by the UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 227 irdiclomaclal Council? — I think I should he inclined to say no. f?651. {Dr. Bcllami/.) But they might be tried ? — It seems to me that if you once try them it will be very difficult to get rid of them. ,S652. {Chairman.) You think that without such a change there would be no place for them and for the combined lecturers together? — I do. .36.'53. Passing to the next subject, you have some changes to suggest as to the Ireland and Craven scholarships, have you not ? — It is the Craven scholar- ship which seems to me the more important of the two, though I think that improvements might be made in tlie regulations of the Ireland scholarship. I think at present those scholarships do not really encourage, as they might do, real scholarship in the university, especially the Craven scholarship, which is extremely rich. I think they do not for this reason, that the Ireland scholarship is frequently obtained by men in their first two years, though it is open to men in their third year; and that though it is one of the greatest dislinetions according to ordinary university opinion which a man can win, it does not really represent much more than first-rate schoolboy’s work, and I do not exactly see bow it can under the present con- ditions of it. Then I think that the Craven scholar- ship is in a much worse plight because it is much richer than the other, and it might be made much more useful. It is now usually gained by men who have only taken their degree a little time, who have not been devoting their attention at all for the last two or two and a half years to such studies as the Craven examination contemplates, and who receives 80/. a year for three- years, with really, as it seems to me, little or no merit ; that is to say, they do in the exami- nation (I speak partly from my own experience) rather worse probably than they did in the Ireland examination ; they have of course more general know- ledge but less special knowledge of the sidijects. Then I think that the Craven scholarship might be made an extremely valuable stimulus to the study of classics if men were prohibited from going in for it before, say their twenty-fourth term, so that they should be almost compelled if the standard of the examina- tion were maintained, to give themselves seriously to such studies. Then the Craven scholarship would be a really valuable assistance to men who wish to pursue such studies. I think it might also be considered whether it would not be well to recommend or even compel them to go abroad whilst they held it to study in a foreign university ; but that I do not feel so sure about. 3654-. Is fixing the age the only definite suggestion which you have to make upon that subject ? — I should wish to suggest also that instead of giving two scholar- ships of 80/. for three years, it might be better to give two scholarships of 120/. for two years ; to shorten the time for which they were held but to increase tile value so as practically to make them into small terminable fellowships. I think also that it would be better if the Ireiajul scholarship were given at the end, say of three years, instead of being allowed to be given at any time within the first 16 terms. 365.5. The effect of that, you think, would be to extend any stimulus which that scholarship affords more completely over the whole of the university course ? — Yes. I think it would be better also if the Ireland scholarship, which is now 40/. a year, were thrown together and turned into a more valuable thing held for a shorter time. 3656. Is it not the fact that everyone who gets the Ireland scholarship is pretty certain to get something else which is valuable too ? — Yes, that is usually the case. 3657- {Bir 31. IV. Ridley.) He is almost sure to get the Craven scholarship for instance ? — Yes, he is now. 3658. {Mr. Bernard.) Is it not a real advantage to have a scholarship in the university which is an object of the highest ambition, and which yet is not con- nected with any large pecuniary reward? — Yes, I quite feel that. That, however, connects with another jioint which I feel strongly about, with regard to the necessity of trying to make the scholarship if pos- sible, a more real assistance to poor students, which they are not now at all. ; 3659. { Chair ma7i.) We shall be glad to hear your opinion upon that point ? — I am afraid that I have no practical suggestion to make with regard to that. All that I have myself observed in my own college is that frequently the scholarships are got by men wbo are not really in want of them, and that they are not only thus thrown away, but that they increase the expenses of the college, because there is a great tendency for the men to use them as pocket-money. 3660. {Dr. Bellamy. ) And they were absolutely throughout the university divorced from the condition of poverty by tbe recent change, were they not ? — Yes. 3661. {Chairman.) Do you see jmur way to any test which would separate those who ought from those who ought not to be so subsidised ? — The great difficulty seems to me to be that the standard of attainments required is so liable to sink ; but if tbeir was any probability of that being maintained, I do not myself see why the colleges should not be compelled to ascertain roughly what were the circumstances of the men going in for the scholarships, and to set aside some at any rate for persons really in want of them. 3662. It has been suggested that a diversity in the value of the scholarships in different colleges is an evil, and that in some colleges they are of a larger value than is desirable ; do you think that is so ? — Yes. 3663. {Dr. Bellamy.) It was suggested by one witness here that the scholarship itself .should be small, say 25/., but that the college should be able to increase it in case it was convinced that the student required it ; do you think that would be practicable ? — Yes, but then the poor man would have to know that it would be increased. 3664. {3Ir. Bernard.) Are many of the scholar- ships at Balliol gained by men who have come from the less expensive schools ? — There are every year some gained by them. 3665. Do you think there is any considerable pro- portion gained by such schools as the Manchester Grammar School, for instance, and others ? — We give away three scholarships every year, and I think that every year there is at least one gained by a scholar from such a school as you mention. 3666. {Chairman.) In w-hich class would such a school as Marlborough be reckoned ? — I am doubtful about Marlborough ; it would be perhaps on the dividing line. We still have a fair j)ropor- tion of Eton, and Harrow, and Rugby men, who are scholars. 3667. Passing to the subject of professorships, you are of opinion that it is desirable to establish one or more professorships of English, or other modern lan- guages, and literature, are you not ? — That is a sub- ject upon which I do not speak from any special knowledge of my own, my own work having been almost exclusively classical ; but I have felt from time to time how extremely v'aluable a greater study of modern languages, and especially of English, would be to men whose main studies lie in the classics. I have observed the extremely small interest which the bulk of men coming from public schools seem to have in their own language especially, and I think it is partly due to that that they show so little interest in the classics as literature. 3668. You are probably aware that the Hebdomadal Council has suggested that there should be a profes- sorship of English literature ? — Yes. 3669. That, as far as it goes, is in the direction which you think desirable ? — Yes. 3670. One suggestion which has been made is, that the Professor of Anglo-Saxon might be made a professor of the English language generally, and that under him there might be readers in the Teutonic. !• f 2 OXFftRD. R. L. RctUeship, Esq., M.A. il Oct. 1877. 22S UNIVKRSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, OXFORD. B. L. Nettleship, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. lu'iinincL-, anil Cdtic’ languaijc'S ? — 1 think lliat i.s tlic soi'f of tiling; m Ihcli I should like to see done. SC71. There are teachers at the Tavlor Institu- tion of modern languages ; has any definite mode of promoting the study of those modern languages oceuri-ed to you as being practicable ? — I think the most eflective mode would he to have a Schctol of Modern Literature. In which English, German, French, and other languages should all he comprehended ? — Yes. .'1673. You observe tliat those studies, though in- creasing in some of the great school-, are barely recognised by the university ; in which of the great schools are those studies increasing? — ! think that they are increasing in the city of London School tor instance, which is the one of which I happen to have knowledge. I knoiv that there is considerable lime devoted to the study of English. 3674'. And of French and German ? — That I do not know so much about. 3(>7.5. In what manner do yon think they could be recognised by the university; would you liave them introduced as an element into the e.xami'nations ? Yes I think there should be a school of them ; they have been already to some e.xtent recognised in the pass school for the degree. .‘5676. You think that the study of those languages would he not only valuable in itself, but would also be a useful aid to the study of classics ?— Yes. 3677. {Mr. Bernard.') According to your scheme of examinations. I suppose this school of English hteiatnie would be a later school ? — I had thought of it rather as a school alongside of the examination for the degree at the end of the three years, a school of the .same nature as the Schools of Modern History and Law and that candidates might be permitted to take their degree in that school. The witness withdrew. Rev. T. K. Chet/ve, M.A, The Rev. T. K. (biicYNE, M.A. (1 367S. ( C/iair/nan.) We understand that you wish to offer evidence chiefly upon the subject of the studies connected with the Semitic languages? — Yes, and ))articularly Hebrew. 3679. What is your ojiinion of the state of the study of Hebrew, and of those languages generally, in Oxford ? — That it is very far below what it ought to be. 3680. Are you able to assign, in a short compass, any causes for that ? — I think it is mainly owing to the |>remature connexion of Hebrew with theology'. I think it has lieen too much forgotten in Oxfiird that a sound philological basis is necessary to the study of theology. Consequently the students of Hebrew have not given suflicicnt attention to Hebrew as a branch of philology ; it has been treated as the handmaid of theologyj and I think that any changes that are made will' have to be in the direction of severing Hebrew from the study of theology, or at least of treating it for a time as an independent study. 3681. What measures do you think can be usefully taken for that juirposc ? — i think that the most im- portant measure would be the constitution of a .Semitic Languages School, in which Hebrew and the languages allied to it should be the sole subjects of examination. 368‘2. Do you mean for the Arts degree, or as a separate and subsequent school? — for the Arts degree. 3683. You think that as there is an option now to take in law and modern history, so there should be an option to take in Semitic languages? — Y'es. 3681. Sui^posing that were done, what other mea- sures should you suggest. I see here that you suggest university travelling Hebrew scholarships? — Yes, and whatever be the fate of the scheme of a Semitic Languages School, I think that a small number of such scholarshi])s might with great advantage be established. 3685. To be open to what class of students, graduates or undei graduates ? — Certainly, under the present system, to Bachelors of Arts only. ' 3686. Supposing that your plan of a Semitic School V ere ado|)ted, would you admit undergraduates as well as bachelors ? — No, I think it would still be necessary to confine it to bachelors, unless the time for the examination were extended much heyond the time to which we are accustomed. 3687. Those scholarships would be conferred by examination, I sujipose — Certainly. 3688. For what length of time should they be held ? — I think two years would be enough. 3689. Have you formed any opinion as to how many such scholarships there should be ? — In the first instance it nould be undesirable to create many. It would no doubt be an experiment, and I do not think there should be in the first instance more than three. I think three Hebrew travelling scholarships would be suflicieot. 3690. Y'ou would suggest that they should he of considerable value, I suppose, as a special stimulus ? — I do not wish to assign an unusually large value. I 'ellow of Bolliol College), examined. siqipose that unless it were tolerably large it would not he thought worth competing for, 'but Ido not wish It to be large enough to seduce the young students to lu.xury and amusement. .5691. Have you formed an opinion of the value which you would give to it ?— It think 120/. a year would be quite sullicient. 3692. {Ear/ of Bcdesdale.) What do you mean by “ travelling scholarships ” ? — I meant, of course, residing for a period of time at some foreign univer- sity ; I did not mean continuous movement. 3693. {C/tainnnn.') Would you projiose to take any security for their using their ti'me properly ? — That I think would be extremely important. I think that without a satisfactory report from the teachers whose lectures they have attended at the end of the first year the scholarships shoidd be revoked, and that at the end of the second year it would be desirable to require some dissertation, which should be printed and published, but I do not feel so strongly about that; It might or it might not be desirable that it should be imblished. 3691-. That would be of no use, would it, unless you had some judgment formed of the value of the work when jHiblished ?— True; I think that would be very important. I have not directed my attention as to who the persons to pronounce npon its value should be, but I do think it would be desirable that an authoritative opinion on the merits of the dissertation should be pronounced. 3695. {Earl of Bedesdale.) But as the scholarship IS to last only for two years, and this dissertation is to be produced at the end of the two years, supiiosing that it is not |aoduced, or sujiposing that it is very bad, what will happen — It would not he of any value, it is clear, except as making the holder of the scholar- shi|) ashamed of himself. 3696. ( Mr. Bernard.) You did not mean that the production of the dissertation was to be the condition of the payment at the end of the second year ; that wav not your intention, was it ? — I think that without a satisfactory report at the end of the second year, certainly the holder should not receive his money. I think it is necessary that at every stage he should be checked as much as (lossible. 3697. You are to have a report at the end of the first year ?— Y''es. 3698. Is that to be the condition of payment ? — Yes. 3699. At the end of the second ymar you wish to have a report again ? — Yes. 3700. (Chairman.) What is your reason for attri- buting so much importance toforeigu study in Hebrew? — Because the system of the German universities favours the growth of a love of study' for its own sake, and I think that whilst the prospect of examination is impending over a student he is unable to attend to his studies with the freshness of interest which is requisite. 3701. Supposing that these scholars were Bachelors UNTVKKSITY (JF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 229 ol' Arts, there would be no j)rospect, of examination impending over them, would there ? — No, hut the professors and teaehers in Oxford are so tlioroughly oecupied with the examinations, that such lectures as they give are for the most part with reference to the examinations, or if they give other lectures they are so much quelled and depressed by the smallness of the audience, and the want of interest, that it is diflicult to get introduced into the higher branches of the subject, and to comprehend the method of research by which philological results have been obtained. 3702. {Mr. Bernard.) You mean that study in (iermany is likely to be more profitable to the Hebrew student, after he has obtained a certain stage of ad- vancement, than study in Oxford would be ? — -Yes. 3703. Is that because they have in Germany a greater number and diversity of teachers of Hebrew ? — There is a constant effervescence of their philological interest ; research is a reality ; there is a constant movement, and it is the sight of that movement which impresses a young student so much, 1 think. 3704. You mean that a man finding himself in a (Jerman university, where Hebrew was well studied, would find himself amongst persons who were keenly engaged in the pursuit of Semitic learning? — Yes. 3705. Is there any German university at present especially distinguished for tlu3 study of Hebrew ? — I think that I should mention three, Leipzig, Gottingen, and Strasburg. I think I should mention those three as universities in wliich the Semitic languages in general are most successfully cultivated, and where they have the most eminent professors. 3706. {Chairman.) Is it the practice of Scotch students of Hebrew to resort to the German univer- sities ? — Very much so, as lam informed by Scotch j)rofessors of my acquaintance. 3707. Have you formed an opinion as to the superi- ority or otherwise of the Scotch over the English Hebraists ? — I think the average is very much higher in Scotland. 3708. What do you exactly mean by the “ average ” ; do you mean the average of the advanced Hebraists or of the ordinary students ? — I am thinking chiefly of the authors of works on Hebrew and Old Testament subjects. 3709. You think that as a general rule a better know- ledge of Hebrew is manifested by Scotch than by English authors ? — It is very much sounder. 3710. Do you think that this principle of traveiling scholars, who might be required to study in Foreign universitie-, should be extended to other branches of knowledge which are taught in this university as well as to the Semitic languages ? — I think it can hardly be doubted. I do not presume to offer as positive an opinion upon that point, but of course I cannot have been blind to the great activity of research in all branches of learning in foreign universities ; and as the activity of research is the chief condition of a healthy study, it seems to me that young students ought to be introduced to a centre of such research as early as possible. 3711. Would you recommend the institution of such travelling scholarships say in the classical studies and in natural science? — Yes. 3712. But you think it especially pressing with respect to Hebrew ? — I think so because the study of Hebrew appears to me so very dead and so very in- active in Oxford. 3713. {Mr. Bcrnai’d.) Is your opinion formed upon personal experience as a student in any German university, or upon the publications with whYh you are acquainted and which are issued from German universities ? — Partly upon personal experience. Ten years ago I became a student in a German university, it is true for a short period, only half a year, but it was some time after I had taken my degree, und therefore I was better fitted to derive the benefits of such a sojourn. I have also made periodical visits to several other German universities and I have a considerable acquaintance wdth German Professors of Semitic Languages and I have also of course read the learned works of the professors. 3714. Have they jiroduced very much of late years in Semitic learning ? — Not so much as in previous years, but still a great deal. It cannot be denied that there is still in spite of recent changes great philo- logical activity in the branch of Semitic languages as well as in others. 3715. What are you referring to when you speak of recent changes ? — I meant the two prominent changes which have affected Germany ; the development of natural science studies and the political changes. 3716. {Earl of liedesdale.) According to your statement \ ou would rather recommend a man to send his son to Germany than to Oxford ? — If his sole object were to obtain a sound knowledge of the Semitic languagei I would ; but I aiiprehend that there may be some things which especially for an Englishman may be obtained better, I was going to say, even in Oxford than in Germany. 3717. {Chairman.) Are the classes of Hebrew students numerous in those German universities wdiich you h{ive mentioned as the seats of the study of Semitic languages ? — I must admit that the number of students of Semitic languages has declined, partly, no doubt, owing to the decrease of theological students, but partly owing to the growth of other objects ot interest; still in the large universities, such as Leipzig and Gottingen, there would be a considerable number of students of Semitic languages. 3718. In either of those universities what would be the class which a popular Hebrew professor might ex- pect to have ? — I believe that Dr. Delitzsch at Leipzig has a considerable class, but I should think that very few professors of Hebrew would have an equally large one ; and I think that any individual Professor of Semitic Languages, of Arabic, for instance, or Syriac, w'ould have an extremely small class ; but it must be remembered that there are a large number of profes- sors of those languages, and if their classes were amal- gamated they would amount to a considerable number of students. 3719. Do you mean a large number in the same university, or a large number in the aggregate of the German universities? — In the aggregate. 3720. {31r. Bernard.) But in each university — in Leipzig for instance, would there be several courses in Hebrew and Semitic languages going on at the same time ? — Yes, there would be several. 3721. {Chairman.) Would there be courses in any other Semitic language besides Hebrew and Arabic ? — In Syriac and Ethiopic, and there are now begin- ning to be courses in Assyrian. At Leipzig there is a private lecturer on Assyrian, and at Berlin there is a Professor of Assyrian. 3722. Dr. Delitzsch is lecluring now on Assyrian grammar, is he not? — Frederick Delitzsch, the son, is. 3723. Would you propose any change in the Kenni- cott Hebrew Scholarship ?— I think that it would be the smallest measure which could be proposed to con- vert that into a travelling scholarship. It is true that it is only tenable for one year, still if the student were acquainted with German he might go through a great deal of work in that time. 3724. {Mr. Bernard.) I suppose you mean that he should not be paid the amount of his scholarship until the end of the year, and that he should not be jtaid then unless it appeared that he had been studying abroad ? — Certainly. 3725. {Chairman.) Would you recommend the establishment of any university fellowships in Hebrew? — That of course ought to be considered with reference to the larger ([uestion of university special fellow- ships in general. I think that as the number of Hebrew scholars increases in Oxford it will be desir- able to offer some attractions to them after they have finished their undergraduate course, and also that for the sake of study and research a few of the best Hebrew scholars should receive endowments for tlic purpose of carrying ou study. But at })resent I think they should bo but few in number. It would be in Ff 3 OXFORD. liev. T. K. CJieyne, M.A 31 Oct. 1877 230 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: IMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. liev. T. K. Cheijne, ^I.A, 31 Oct. 1877. experiment and the supply at present would bo very limited. 3726. lyEarl of Redcsc/alc.) How many men are now studying the language in Oxford ? — The aggre- gate of Hebrew students in Oxford would be fairly large, but most of those could hardly be counted because they are only endeavouring to obtain such a small amount as will raise them to a higher class in the theological school examination. The number of those who study for the university scholarship exami- nation which is the principal test of Hebrew will he very small indeed, the competition is very small, and within the last three or four years the scholarship has twice not been awarded at all. 3727. (^Chairman.) Whether scholarships or fellow- ships, you would not of course award them unless y'ou thought that the men came up to a certain necessary standard ? — Certainly not. 3728. What is your opinion as to the mode of elect- ing to special fellowships of the kind which you have described ; should it be done by the eolleges to which those fellowships are attached, or in some other way' ? — 1 am supposing in my proposal that the fellowships are connected with the university^ and not attached to a special college. Therefore it would be a university board, the constitution of which I have not directed my attention to. 3729. You do not think it desirable that these Hebrew fellowships should be established in any particular colleges ? — No, I think not, or at least not so desirable as that they should be attached to the university. 3730. Do you think it desirable that there should be special fellowships of the .same kind in other subjects ? — Highly desirable. It is a subject in which I am greatly interested. 3731. Do you think that they also should be unat- tached to colleges ? — Yes, I think so. 3732. How should it be determined in what subjects those special fellowships should l)e given ? — That w ould he a subject of great difficulty, which would have to be determined by a mixed board of special students connected with the university'. 3733. Exclusively connected with the university ? — -Not necessarily exclusively connected with the uni- versity', though no doubt the university could furnish sufficient experts in most subjects. 3734. Then you think it desirable that there should be a certain number of special fellow'ships not each inflexibly appropriated to a particular subject, but Avhich may from time to time be given under the direction of a board ? — Yes. 3735. What w'ould he your notion of the proper tenure of such fellow'shij) ? — It should be for a vei'y limited term, hut I think that the fellows should be capable of re-election on giving evidence that their studies had produced some results of value for philo- logy' or for science. .3736. That would be a mode by which you think what is called research might be advantageously pro- moted ? — Yes. 3737. Do you think it would be easy for any board of electors to test severely tlie value of the results ? — It w'ould no doubt be difficult; and for the testing of those results it w ould be desirable to obtain the assist- ance of the best expei-ts that could be had in particular subjects. 3738. Would there not be a tendency to deal very leniently, even if you had the assistance of such ex- perts, w'ith men avIjo Avere coming up for re-election ; there would be no competition in such a case, Avould there ? — 1 suppose the amount of funds Avould be limited, aud there Avould always be a new candidate applying to be elected for the first time. 3739. Do you propose that when the holder of such a fellowship at the end, say, of five years, offered himself for re-election, he should be exposed to tiie competition of ncAV candidates ? — It would be for the board to consider whether it Averc more desirable to allot a ])art of the funds to a new candidate, or to the candidate who was applying for re-election. 3740. Is it not a matter of general experience that Avhen it is provided that a person shall be re-eligible to any' office, if he Avishes to be re-elected, and has done nothing in the nature of disqualification, he is re- elected ? — I think it is. It would no doubt be neces- sary to keep up the standard by all possible means, and to be as strict as possible in demanding definite proofs of relative scientific eminence. 374-1. (fl/r. Bernard.) Are there any' fellowships in your own college held upon any tenure of this kind ? — No. There is .a provision in the statute under Avhich Ave have been subsisting for [studcnt-felloAvships Avhose holders should be re-elected at the end of a period of five years, but no one of the existing felloAvs has placed himself under that statute. 3742. I Avill read you the clause in ycur stati tes — “ The master and felloAvs shall have the poAver of re- “ electing from time to time for periods not e.xceeding “ five y •ears any felloAv Avho is engaged in the study “ of any branch of literature or science. Such re- “ election shall only take place Avith the consent of “ the visitor and upon evidence to be laid before him “ and the master and felloAvs that such studies arc “ likely' to produce important results in published “ Avritings.” There has been no instance than as yet of that statute having been applied ? — No.- 3743. (^Chairmaai.) With regard to the professorial staff, do y'ou juopose to establish a ncAv professorship ofHebreAv? — It Avould be highly' desirable to appoint a second Professor of IlehreAv Avhose duties should he purely philological, Avho should lecture on the lan- guage and literature of the JeAvs, including under the term “ literature ” the works Avritten later than the completion of the Old Testament, including the Tal- mudic and Rabbinic Avritings, and that he should give lectures from a jfliilological point of vieA\'. It Avould be highly desirable that this professorship should be entirely open : that it should not he limited to clergy- men. 3744. When you say that he should give lectures from a philological point of vicAv does not the existing Ilebrc.Av ])rofcssor treat the language from a philo- logical point of vicAv ? — I should be sorry to deny that, but the existing Professor of IlebreAv has to treat his subject from a theological point of A'ieAv, as he is practically' a member of the theological faculty ; and the candidates for Holy Orders resort to his lectures, and take certificates of attendance of those lectures to the bishops before ordin.'ition. 3745. It is easy to imagine that a man dealing AA itl'., say, such books as those of the Canonical Scriptures, can help dealing Avitli them either from a religious or from an anti-religious point of vicAV ? — Of course it Avould lie impossible to prevent a professor holding strong anti-religious vieAvs from bringing them out in his lectui’cs ; but at the same time public opinion Avould be against him, and I do not think that this constitutes a serious danger. 3746. {Mr. Bernard.) The Regius Professor of IlebreAv is a Professor of Biblical llebreAv, is he not ? — I do not know hoAV the terms of his professorship run. 3747. The statute relating to his professorship runs in this Avay : — “ Professor rcffius Ungiue Jlehraicce “ bis singulis septimanis e saerre seripturee “ fontilms qnacunqnc ad illius lingiue granimaticain “ et sermonis proprietateni piertincnt cxplicahit ” ? — He is in fact a professor of the language of the Old Testament and the exegesis of the Old Testament, the exegesis being practically limited to the exegesis recognised by the Anglican Church. 3748. f Chairman.) Supposing, for example, that in the received translation of the Scriptures any HebreAv Avord should be rendered in a manner Avhich the pro- fes.sor thought incorrect, Avould he not, simply upon philological greunds, be at liberty to correct the error ? — T have no doubt that he Avould be, and that he Avould take the opportunity of doing so. I meant that he Avould. Avith regard to the exegesis, from the circumstances of his position, from having ])upils Avho AA'crc looking forward to going before the bishop, naturally treat the subject from Avhat I may call a UNIvr.ltSTTV OF OXFOUD flO.MMlSSION: — MINUTES OF lOVIUENCK. niotlont point of’ view, from flie point of view of tlie Anglican Cluireli since tlie Reformation. And it is desirable that there should lu' a, professor who should treat .of tlie exegesis from a. jinrely philological point of view, that is to say, that he shoiiM give the (‘x- ternal sense as the laws of the language recpiired. d749. My difliculty is to see how you can secure that elimination of all considcM’ations except the abstract philological consideration ; by what jiossihle mode of electing a professor would you avoid his presenting his own jioint of view, whether it was religious or anti-religious ? — You could not prevent him from doing so ; you would simply rely on public opinion and on the character of a man of honour. 3750. Is it a matter in which public opinion would practically have a bearing at all ; 1 sujipose there are very few persons who are able to criticise the per- formance of the duties of such a professor ? — I think that a Hebrew Professor who used his office in order to promote definite anti-religious views would he looked upon with disapproval by most members of the university. 3751 . If they were views which he himself sincerely entertained would he he looked upon with di.sapproval ? — Yes ; it is my impression that if he took the pro- fessorial chair as the place from which to propagate them he would he regarded as going beyond his proper function. I may bo over sanguine, hut that is my impression. I must confess that I think the contro- versial tone would indicate that the professor was not a pure philologist, that he had not reached the historical level, from which, without denying the pos- sibility of the truth of any particular view, the pro- fessor would regard them all as historical facts which had developed in a particular way, and which were all worthy of consideration. 3752. Is that height of abstract philology easily attainable by human nature ? — It is at any rate capable of being approached. 3753. (Mr. Bernard.) You think perhaps that if a jirofessor were to direct his Hebrew teaching towards controversial topics rather than towards the elucidation of the Semitic languages and literature it would he .elt to be a dejiarture from his true line of duty ? — I think if he touched upon them at all it ought to he simply as parts of a history of exegesis, which a pro- fessor might obviously be allowed to touch ujion. 3754. (Chairman.) Passing now to the question of the readership, do you think that any reader or readers in this branch are wanted ? — I think that the very least measure that could he taken would be the foundation of a Readership or a Professorship of Post- Biblical Rabbinic and Talmudic Hebrew. The want of such a university teacher is already felt, seeing that the examinations for the Hebrew Scholarships include to some extent the language of the Rabbinic literature. 3755. Is there any instruction given in it at present ? — There is no instruction, either university or college, given in it. I believe that at the university of Cam- bridge there is a university reader of Rabbinic and Talmudic Literature. 3756. Although there is no person whose business it is to do it, is any instruction in this matter, in fact, given in this university ? — I believe there are one or two members, of the university, especially Dr. Neubauer, who is an Honorary Master of Arts of the university and Sub-Librarian of the Bodleian, who have given instruction in this subject. 3757. Is no instruction in that literature given by the Regius Professor of Hebrew, or by his assistants? — I am not aware of it. 3758. (Mr. Bernard^) Dr. Neubauer is a man of remarkable attainments in this subject, but any in- struction which he gave would be of a private kind ? — Y es. 3759. (Chairman.) You suggest that it is desirable to have Hebrew Scholarships in particular colleges. Will you state your reasons for that opinion ? — I do not look for very great results, and yet under the present system it seems unfair that Hebrew should be excluded. As the teaching of schools improves 231 there will, no doubt, be a number of candidates, par- ticularly if the colleges invite them by founding scholarsbips. At present the teaching of Hebrew in schools is very slight. 'J'here are very few schools in which it is taught, and presumably there are but few schoolmasters who are competent to give instruction; but there is reason to hojie that this will improve. 3760. Have you formed any opinion as to any number of scholarships which might usefully be established in the colleges for the special promotion of the study of Hebrew ? — I think if half a dozen of the colleges were to found Hebrew scholarships it would probably be an encouragement to study. 3761. (d7r. Bernard.) Do you know whether it is still a subject of instruction at Merchant Taylors School ? — It is. 3762. Do you happen to know whether the teach- ing of Hebrew at Merchant Taylors and the fact that Hebrew was a subject of study at Merchant Taylors have produced any valuable results ? — It is a little difficult for me to answer that question, having had the advantage of my first instruction at Merchant Taylors. 3763. I was not aware of that. That is of itself a valuable result, is it not? — I watch with great interest the progress of Merchant Taylors in Hebrew, and I entertain great hopes that valuable results will be attained, though as yet, beyond the sending out of a certain number of trained Hebrew scholars, we cannot say that great published results have accrued. 3764. Is it the case that your attention was first directed to the study of Hebrew by the fact that it was taught at your own school ?— Certainly. 3765. (Dr. Bellamy) How many of the Hebrew Scholarships are there at Wadham ?— I do not know. The Hody Scholarships have been so very unpro- ductive that I have really very little interest beyond regret that money should have been so thrown away; because it is a fact I suppose that no single Hody scholar has shown himself to be a real master of the language. I am not aware whether any university scholar has come from Wadham. 3766. (Chairman.) That is not encouraging to the foundation of -College Scholarships in Hebrew, is it? — It is true that that does not point in favour of it. The Wadham exhibitions have produced absolutely nothing, I think. 3767. (Sir M. IJ'. Itidley.) And there are four of them, are there not? — Yes. 3768. (Chairman.) Should you .say generally that it would be an advantage to found in colleges for undergraduates special scholar.ships, when the college .system of instruction had no bearing upon the subject ? — No, certainly not, and I suppose that the main cause of the failure at AVadham College is that none of the Fellows of Wadham have been interested in the subject, nor has there been any teaching beyond that of the Professor of Hebrew ojien to the holders of the exhilntions. If Wadham were associated with colleges which included on their staff a good teacher of Hebrew that difficulty would be avoided. 3769. Perhaps we may now pass from the special subject of Hebrew taken alone to the general subject of the study of Semitic languages, of which that is part. What is your opinion as to the present professorships in those languages ? — The number of the professorships is inadequate. The mode of appointment to them is most unsatisfactoi’y, and the value of them, except that of the Professorship of Hebi'ew, is very inadequate. In fact there are but three Professorships of Semitic Languages, one of which is the Professorship of Hebrew, the second the Laudian Professorship of Arabic and Syriac, and the third is the Lord Almoner’s Readership or Professor- ship of Arabic. The last of those is hardly paid at all. His salary is, I think, 60/. a year ; and the late Professor, Mr. Chenery, who has just resigned, has naturally not been in the habit of residing on the spot. The Laudian Professor of Arabic is insufficiently paid; but I am not aware what the precise value of the chair is. The Hebrew Professorship of course is Ff 4 OXFORD. lirv. r K. Cheyne, M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. 232 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Ilev. T. K. Chci/ne, M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. adequately endowed ; but none of tliose professor.sliips are a[)jK)inted to by a Board of exj-erts; and tlie Laudian Professorsliip is, I think, appointed to by Convocation, tlie body tlie least competent of all for apjiointing to snob a chair. 8770. Your own studies probably have extended more or less to all the Semitic languages.^ — Yes. 3771. Are there manj' students of Arabic in the universitt' ? — Very few; but as the Indian studies increase there will no douht be more as Arabic is included in that department. 3772. What staff do you think is wanted in the university in these Semitic languages ? — 1 thiiik that four professorships would be sufficient, the second jirofessorship of Ilebrew, of wliicb I spoke, the profes- sorship of Arabic including Ethiopic, as being more closel}' allied with Arabic tlian with ])erhaps any other language, and a sej)arate Professorsliip of Syriac partly owing to the large extent of its literature wbicb is highly valuable for theology. Therefore a Profes- sorship of Syriac is also important to the study of theology. Lastly, I think there should be a Profes- sorship of Assyrian, Assyrian being by this time suffi- cientl}' well known to be taught systematically, and it being highly desirable that some member of the uni- versity should devote his time exclusively to those researches which stand very much in need of syste- matic and continuous study. 3773. Are there regular grammars and dictionaries of Assyrian now ? — Grammars are beginning to be written, and an attempt has been made on a sort of prolegomenon to a dictionary. That is all. 3771- Therefore there is great room for research even in the limited direction of a grammar and dictionary I siqipose ? — Yes, there is great room. 3775. Is not Syriac a "language which is closely allied to Ilehrew ? — It is closely allied to Ilebrew. 3776. Is there any strong reason for sejiarating it, as the subject of a professorship rather than of a reader- shij) from the Hebrew Protessorship ; might not the Ilebrew Professor have a readership in Syriac under him ? — That might be done; but at the same time the amount of literature is so great that there w'ould be quite scope enough for a person of great eminence to devote bis life to it, and he might fairly claim to he j)ut on a higher footing than a mere reader. 3777. 1 see you make a suggestion that besides that there should be a professor of Semitic History and Arcbaiology ? — Yes, I think that would be of great value for the general studies of the jilnce as w'ell as for Semitic students. In deabng with classical history the want must be felt of some autho- rit}’ w'lu) could give correct information as to the results of oriental researches with reference to those obscure subjects wbicb, thougb mainly, are not en- tirely Semitic. 3778. Do you under tlie title of Semitic History mean to include the modern history of the oriental nations which are supposed to be of Semitic origin, as well as their ancient history? — I think it might per- haps be included, and yet it would be difficult to find one man who would be equally competent for the whole of that large subject. 3779. You jiroceed to suggest that there should be an archeological musuem. Will you state your views iqion that point ? — That would be a natural appendage to the Professorships of History. It would be difficult for a Professor of Archeology to lecture without a museum at hand to conduct bis class through, and explain his residts. 3780. You know probably that the Hebdomadal Council has suggested that there should be a museum of classical archeology ? — I am aware that there was an archeological museum suggested, but I was not aware that it was limited to classical archeology, and I should regret it hecause bow classic art could be entirely separated from Semitic antiquities, 1 do not quite see. 3781. It has also been suggested lliat there should be a museum of northern antiquities; do you not The witness think that it would be best to bring Iheinidl togc;hci ? — I should supjiose so. 3782. How would you appoint to the new | ro- fessorships when they were established? — It is I am aware a very difficult subject. 'Hie only point u[)on which I am clear is that the majority of the Board of Electors to Oriental Professorships, I ihink I nui)" say at any rate, to Semitic Professoishi|)s, should be experts, and that those experts should be jiartly jicrsons who are not members of the Uuivcisity of Oxford. 3783. I see that in youi- pajicr you have suggested, that the majority should be persons who do not belong to the university ? — I do not mean to suggest that the absolute majority of the board should be persons who are not members of the university, but that ihe majority of the experts should be such per.-ons. 3781. The note with which I have been furnished is that no appointments would meet with the apjiroval of your brother scholars, unless made by a board, the majority of which consists of experts, and the greater ]>art of which majority consists of non-Oxford men; do you think that essential ? — I think it is ilesirahle. 3785. Is that because of the ditliculty of finding ;i, sufficient number of oxpo'ts in Oxford on thc.-e special subjects ? — That is partly the reason. 3786. Passing next to the Bodleian Library, will you state what you wash to suggest about that ? I think that it is discreditable to the univeisity that so few' of its members sbould be competent to dcciplu r MSS. The MS. department of the Bodleian attun tsa considerable number of foreign students annually, and it seems unbecoming that we should resign to strangers the task of acipiainting the world with the trea-^nres committed to our guardianship. At the same time the power of deciphering MSS. must of course be gained by practice, and young sludents must have some attractions offered to them ; I think therefiue that if a certain number of studentshijis or I'ellow- ships tenable in the first instance fiir a very short period v'ere founded in connexion with the Bodleian, imjiortant results might in time accrue to the university. 3787. With the special view that the holders lif these studentships should devote themselves to jiala- ography ? — With the special view that the}' should devote themselves to pala3ography. 3788. That would presuppose that one or more of Professors of Paleography existed, or that one or more of the librarians of the Bodleian should in consideration of some additional payment be charged with the duty of assisting the students? — 'fhosc students would be placed under the superintendence of a professor or of a librarian specially qualified for that purpose. 3789. Is the difficuly which you mention of de- ciphering I\:1SS. one which extends to the Oiiental MSS.?— Yes. 3790. You also suggest, what I think has been suggested elsewhere, that there should be some pe- riodical jiublication in which theresultsofthein.es- tigation of the MSS. should be given? — Yes, I think it is highly desirable that some re})ort should be made to the world of the results of those re- searches, but I am aware that great difficulties would be connected with it, but they are difficulties which could no doubt be overcome by skilled advice. The danger would of course be that worthless things would be published, or that various readings, fin- instance, of some MS. which is pretty well knon n already would be published at unnecessary length ; but if a judicious editor or editors were appointed, and the professors gave their advice, these diflicuhies would no doubt be overcome. 3791. (iV;-. Bernard). I suppose we have at present in the Bodleian a person as well qualified as any body in the world to decipher Semitic MSS. ? — He is, no doubt, one of the most competent men. 3792. {Chairman.) Is there any other suggestion which you have to off r us ? — There is no other point iqion which I desire to express an opinion. withdrew. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 233 The Rev. T. L. Papillon, M.A. (Fellow of New College), examined. OXFORD. .3793. {Chairman.) We are informed that yon have acted for four or live years as seeretary to one of the combinations of colleges ? — I have. 3794. Will you inform us in what manner the courses of lectures which are advertised are settled and arranged by that combination ? — There is no regular and sy.stematic settlement. 'Ihere have been some attempts for the tutors of the dilferent colleges to meet together previously and settle the courses, but in practice we have been obliged to place on the list the lectures that each college considers that it wants independently of the others. 3795. Each college sends in the names of its lecturers, and tliey are put upon the lists ; is that so ? — Yes. There is an informal meeting of the lec- turers in the subjects of moderations and also in the subjects of the final schools, and if they can come to any arrangement amongst themselves, as to what lectures are desirable in each particular subject, that arrangement is carried out, but otherwise there is no systematic arrangement. 3796. May the Commissioners infer that it cannot be represented as a general rule that they do come to such an arrangement? — I think they do, to a certain extent. What I meant to imply was that there are more lectures on the list than would be considered absolutely necessary for these six eollege.s, if the subjects were settled by some external authority. 3797. May we infer that you think there is some loss of power from the absence of such an organiza- tion ? — I think that there is some loss of power ; though in certain subjects (such, for example, as Aristotle’s Ethics) one lecture alone w'ould not really meet the wants of the six colleges. 3798. We sec that upon this list there are four lectures in the First Book of the Ethics of Aristotle, by four different lecturers at as many colleges, given, some of them at all events, at the same hour on the same days ; is that an arrangement which has arisen from concert, or from the absence of concert ? — ITom the absence of concert — or rather, I should say, from the difficulty of concentrating the teaching of this sub- ject for six colleges into the hands of only one or two lecturers. And if there must be two or more leetui-es in one subject, it is more convenient that they should clash as to hours with each other’, than with lecturers in other subjects. 3799. {Sir M. IF. liicUey.) Is any undei’graduafe of either of those four colleges able to attend the lectures of the lecturers he likes best?^^ — That is a nratter for each individual college to settle. 1 should think that there would be no |)ressure put upon him to go to the lectures given in his own college. As a matter of fact, the undergraduates will go to the lectures in their own college by preference rather than take the trouble of going out. 3800. {Chairman.) Supposing that the lecturer from one of those four colleges had a very high reputation, would not the undergraduates, if they were absolutely fiee to choose, go to the best of them? — Perhaps they would if there w’as one lecturer with a re 2 >utation conspicuous altove the others. 3801. Are those lectures for class men or for jrass- mcn ? — 1 or class men. 3802. llow is the separation made; is- it made by the tutors of the college ? — It is. 3803. And the pass instruction is given entirely within the college ? — It is given mainly within the college. 3804. Have you formed an ojiinion upon the question whether there would be any advantage in placing the whole of this system. o|' instruction for the honour men under the direct control of the uni- versity', and removing it from the colleges, supposing that in substance the instruction were of the same character as that which is now given ? — If the in- struction were in substance of the same character, and if the position of those who give the lectures were that of college teachers, if they vvere on the staff of the different colleges, I should not see so much Rev. T. L. objection to a partial control by tire university. Papillon, M.A. 3805. But assuming that they were not on the staff gj jg 77 . of the different colleges, how would you view it ? — Then I do not think it would work so well. 3806. Do you think there is room for any class of university readers in the same subjects wlio would work efficiently together with this sy'stem ? — I think there might be room for a small number of such readers, being persons on the teaching staff of colleges. 3807. To give lectures in special branches? — To give lectures in special branches. The tendency is' to confine college lectures to the rather narrow curricu- lum of the schools. And I think that there is some- times a difficulty in the Ciise of our belter men who want help in reading more widely, with a view for exam[)Ie to university scholarships. There is difficulty sometimes in providing what they want within the college. 3808. The university examination statutes provide for some encouragement to honour-men to take up certain special subjets; we have been told that that has not been generally done ? — Very little I believe. 3809. Can you suggest a reason for that ? — I think that the ordinary work that is necessary for the schools takes up all iheir time. I think they find that they cannot afford to give much time to a sjrecial subject so long as they are preparing for the schools. 3810. If that is so, would it not modify your answer as to the chance of readers of special subjects in the higher branches attracting classes ? — It would make me anxious to limit the number of such readers, and to ensure their connexion with college teaching. 3811. If you had a moderate nundier do you think that it might tend to give a stimulus to the study of those special subjects ? — I think it might. 3812. {Earl of Rcdesdalc.) Why are those lectures confined exclusively to class-men, why should not a j)ass-man be allowed to attend them if he were so dis- posed ? — If he were so disposed he would be allowed to attend. I meant that the lectures were suitable for class-men, the subjects of examination being generally different in the pass and class schools- 3813. {])Ir. Bernard.) I see that in these lists some professors’ lectures are introduced, but I do not know how they are selected by those who arranged the combination ; is it because those professors took ])art in the combination, or for any other reasons ? — No ; the reason was that it was suggested on one occasion that it would be useful if our list were so arranged that the undergraduates could see on that list what professors’ lectures there were. The profes- sors have no direct connexion with our combination, which is solely for purposes of college lectures. 3814. Tor example, the Regius Professor of Modern History is lecturing upon constitutional history with reference to ancient charters. I do not see his name here ; w’ould there not be room for him ? — The reason for the omission of his name probably is that the lecture was not announced in time for the printing of this list. 38E5. {Chairman.) I see, in what I sup|)ose is the Moderations Scheme, lectures by the Latin Professor in the first six books of the Annals of Tacitus entered ; and in the scheme for the Final School there is a lecture by Mr. Davidson in the same books of Tacitus, but no mention is made of the professors’ lectures ? — That is probably an oversight, it was not intentional. 3816. {31r. Bernard.) 1 see that professor Stubbs advertised his lecture in the “ University Gazette ” of Friday, the 12th of October, was not that time enough ? — No, that is not time enough. We do not get that Gazette till the Friday evening, and our lecture list is always struck off on the Tliursday evening or Friday morning. 3817. He could not have advertised it before, could he ? — Yes ; most of the professors’ lectures arc adver- tised at the end of the previous term. Q 6223i G g 234 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. T. L. Papillon, M.A, 31 Oct. 1877. ./. L.Strachan- Davidson, Esq., M.A. 381S. Do you think that was ihe reason ? — I think so. I might, add, tliat the ^Modern History professors are conneeted witli a combination of lectuiaas in Modern History subjects, and that their lectures appear on the printed list issued by that combination ; so that there is less necessity for placing them u[)on our list for the intbrmatlon of undergraduates. 3819. We have been sometimes told that students are rat In r discouraged from going lo the; lectures of professors on subjects which they take, do you think that is the case at all ? — I think not, e.xcept so far that the hours principally^ available for attendance at lectures, tliat is to say, the hours in the morning are very' much taken U|i witli the necessary lectures in the colleges. That may be an indirect discourage- ment. The real difficulty is that many of ihe profes- sors do not lecture for tlie whole term, nor do they take the same pains to register attendance and test the progress of tlieir pupils by' examination, as college lecturers do, and hence they do not satisfy' the wants either of the undergraduates or of the college authorities. 3820. A student is told tliat he must go to one of those college lectures, tit an hour when if he were not told so he would go to the lecture of a jirofessor, sup* posing him to be so disposed to go there ? — I do no^ think that, if he wished to go to the lecture of a pro- fessor, and that lectureavere likely to be useful to him any pressure would be put upon iiim to attend a college lecture instead. 3821. His college, I suppose, would consider whether the advertised lectures of a professor would be likely to be useful to him or not? — I think that would be the only point for consideration. His tutor would advisi- him as far as he could upon the matter. 3822. If an undergraduate really wished to go to the lectures of a professor he would be commonly per- mitted to do so, would he ? — Certainly. 3823. There is a good deal of freedom, is there not, allowed to men at present, in choosing the lectures to which they will go ? — Yes. 3824. It is not absolute freedom, but freedom sub- ject to the apitroval of the college tutors ? — Yes, that is the jrractice of my own college. 3825. So that the college tutor is the person who decides for him in the last resort to what lectures he will go? — Yes. 'I’he witness withdrew. ,J. L. Strachan-Davidson, Esq., M.A. (Fellow of Balliol College), examined. 382B. {Chairman.) You are one of the tutors in Balliol, are you not? — AYs. 3827. The first point on which you propose to favour us with some observations has reference to the .5th sub-section of the 16tli clause of the Act, the endowment of new professorships or lectureships ; perhaps you would give us your views as to the con- nexion which ought to exist between the university professorships and readerships, on the one hand, and college offices and college teaching on the other ? — J should wish to say by way of preface that I adhere to the general sense of the recommendations of the Board of Studies for the School of Literte Humaniores in their answers to the (luestions on university reipiirements. 3828. Do you refer to those of 1873, or of the later date, 1876 ? — faking the two together ; the one is an appendix to the other, I think. And secondly, that which I have to say refers chiefly to the Classical School. As far as I know it would be also applicable to other schools, but if those who know about other schools think differently I should acquiesce in their opinion. If the university' teaching is dissociated from the college teaching, the latter will always have most {>ractical hold over the undergraduates. The college is the body responsible for their discipline and for their progress ; it is frequently' unwilling to let the teaching slip out of its own hands; and if it chooses to exert its influence there is hardly any limit to the pressure it can put upon the undergraduate. Again, the undergraduate himself is more in sym- pathy' with, and has more confidence in, the tutor who governs him, and whom he sees every' day', than in the professor who seems to move in another sphere. As a general rule then those who constitute the pro- fessor’s audience are those who are sent to him by their tutors. The professor, as far as the mere teach- ing goes, depends for his materials on the goodwill of the colleges. I have heard a professor say that he had always an ample audience, until his subject was put amongst those reeptired in the schools. As soon as this was the case the colleges thought it worth while to ])rovide lectures in the subject, and the pro- fessor’s class was reduced to a scanty audience. It would be easy' to show how some of the ])rofessors feel this state of things, by (pioting from their pub- li.shed writings. I will only refer to the pamphlet on the Professoriate by the Professor of Political Flconomy, and to the answer of the Chichele Professor of His- tory' to the questions of the Hebdomadal Council on university requirements. It has been proposed to supply an audience for the professors by compelling attendance at their lectures. I think that this is the very worst way of attaining the object. It would degrade the ]>rofessoriate by making it appear that it wanted ariificial protection. It would have a bad effect on the undergraduate, who ought rather to be encouraged as far as the exigencies of discipline |)ermit to e.xercise an intelligent choice in the matter of lec- tures. He would think that his presence was required for the sake of the professor, instead of the )>rofessor lecturing for his benefit. I am sure that, if such a measure were forced on the colleges it would be most distasteful, both to tutors and pupils. I believe that the only way in which the professors (except in some cases of peculiar ability) can have a practical influence and hold over the undergraduates is by recognising frankly the dominating position of college teaching, and seeking a jflace in the college system. There is no piactical difficulty in a man combining university and college office, if he is willing to submit to the constraint of a system and to work in harmony with colleagues. I may perhaps be allowed to quote as an instance, the Vinerian Reader in Law, who has cer- tainly extended both his influence and his usefulness by accepting the post of law tutor at Trinity and Balliol. One great bar to the healthy' combination of college and university teaching is the piactice of attaching to professorships fellowships at particular colleges ; and as this practice seems to be referred to in clause 18, section 2 of the Act, I will try to point out its effects. An eminent college tutor gains a tra- ditional reputation built up by y'ears of service, and almost a little school of disciples within his own college. He has there an assured |)osition and in- fluence, which might be fostered and extended to a wider circle l)y his recognition as a university teacher. Instead of this, when he is aj)pointed to a piofessor- ship he often finds the appointment clogged with the condition that he shall leave his old college, where he is known and valued among his puj)ils, and remove his centre of activity to a community where the under- graduate woild knows and cares nothing about him. By this transplantation he gains perhaps in money' and dignity,- but he loses in power and influence. His place in his old college is filled up and he is soon for- gotten, and all his work of building up an audience has to be begun over again, and under more un- favourable conditions. If it be said that it is desir- able to withdraw the professors from the drudgery' of undergraduate teaching, to leave them time for higher UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 235 work, ami for lectures which shall instruct the younger teachers, I should not wish to dispute this position. Only if they are so withdrawn we must not complain if their direct influemre on the work and thought of the undergraduates is small. But whatever the case with professors, those who desire the institution of an order of suh-professors or readers cominotily desire it with the intention that they shall take an active part in the ordinary teaching of undergraduates. This is certainly assumed in the answer ot the Classical Board of Studies about univer.-ity requirements. To accomplish this I think the following provisions are necessary: — (!•) 3 hat it should he distinctly under stood that such posts are tenable conjointly with college tutorships, and that in practice they should be commonly so held. (2.) That the reader should not be required to change his college as a condition of the acceptance of office, (o.) 1 hat the salary given by the university should not exceed 500/. a year. I may remark that there will be a considerable economy of the university funds in the adoption of this view of the office of reader. It it be intended to make him sacrifice his position in his college, you must be pre- pared to compensate him. First, for the value of the actual offices he holds in ( ollege. Secondly, for the abandonment of the prosjiect of a ]H'nsion towai-ds which he has been working during the j^ears in whi h he has served his college. I assume that when the college arrangements are complete a tutor will have a claim to pension, say after 20 years’ service. If he has already worked through 10 or 15 years of this jierioil he wdl think twice befori- he throws up his position. Thirdly, and most important of ali, if iie be a man wholo.’es ti'achinir, you must comperisftte him for saprificiug his position among his pupils. I think that many of the best teachers could not be tempted to make this sacrifice, and that after offering say 1,000/. a year you would only secure the second- best man. If the position of college and university teacher were allowed to be combined, I imagine the system would work somewhat as follows: — The suc- cessful college tutor arrived at middle life, and in the prime of his powers, is offered a university readership. He has been in full work and is receiving, say 600/. a year, from all sources fi-om his college. The extra 500/. offered by the university enables him to resign perha|)s half of his college pay, and at the same time some of his most irksome work, to his younger col- leagues. He will give up the labour of conducting examinations and correspondence, and the task of arranging the work of the college, which will probably have been laid upon him hitherto with the office of Dean or Censor. He will give up also the pa-^s-work, the composition, and the receiving miscellaneous essay’s from the junior undergraduates, and will confine himself mainly to lecturing and to receiving exercises from his pupils in the particular subject which belongs to his chair. Both his lectures and his private in- struction will now be open to members of other colleges. In both the nucleus of his class will he the men of his own college, among whom he has already a reputation. The presence of his name in the list of university teachers will naturally lead the men of other colleges to impiire whether he is worth attending, and the persons to whom they will apply for information will be their undergraduate acquaintances who are mem- bers of the Reader’s College. If he cannot command the suffrages of his own pupils his case is hopeless. But if their verdict is favoiu'ahle he will gradually find that the circle of his reputation is spreading. The out-college men will begin to come. These again will report on his teaching outside, and so he may hope in time to find himself surrounded by a large class drawn from the whole university. I have heard it suggested that, such a person would be tempted to neglect the out-college men for the sake of his own pupils. I think this fear is quite unfounded. The shirking of work and influence that offers itself is not a fault of the place ; we may trust sufficiently to the sense of duty, and if that be thought too weak, it will be reinforced by the vanity of the individual, which will he flattered by the eagerness of outsiders to share his teaching. I would further point out the advan- tages of such posts as prizes in a career which, how- ever ilesirable in itself, is singularlj'- wanting in objects of ambition; such posts would supply persons contem- iilating the profession ofa college tutor as their business for life, with the hope, or at least the chance, that before they were worn out in the work they might attain a position in which, with an augmentation of pay and dignity, they would be relieved from some of the most laborious and least interesting of their duties, and gain leisure for more advanced learning. As to the mode of appointment of professors and readers, I think it is above all things necessary that the elections should be such as to command the confidence of those engaged in the work of the place. This will he at- tained if it is seen that the appointment is given in each case to a man whom competent persons select, because he is the best teacher of his subject available. But this confidence will never be granted if it is believed that elections are biassed by the political or theological opinions of the individual electors. For this reason I think that the duty of appointing a pro- fessor or reader should be entrusted to persons specially nominated for the purpose of such election, who will feel the responsibility incurred by the trust which the university reposes in them. Such responsibility will hardly be felt where the right of patronage is wholly or partially the adjunct of any permanent office, whether a professorship or headship. Even where it is attached to a temporary offi :e, such as that of Vice- Chancellor or Pi'octor, the rcsjionsibility is not suffi- ciently marked. In all these cases the individual may hold that the oppoitunity of forwarding his own views is a jiortion of the pow'er attaching to bis office, and that he has a right to use this power as he pleases. The knowledge that this is jirohable deprives before- hand the verdict of the electors of the weight it ought to possess in the university. I think these evils might be remedied by the adoption of the following plan : — Let there be a central “Board of Educational Ap- pointments,” composed of persons elected annually, one by the governing body of each cohegc. On the occurrence of a vacancy in the professoriate, this board of 20 should elect for the occasion five persons, not necessarily out of its own body, and this com- mittee of five should elect the professor or reader. 3829. ( Sir d/. IF! Hid/c//.) Would you say neces- sarily members of the univer.'iity ? — I should say not. I was going to say that certain restrictions might be introduced. Of course the Central Board wouhl take care to nominate some persons conversant with the particular subject matter of the chair. Perhaps some prescriptions might be laid down as to the categories of |iersons from whom they are to select. I mean such categories as one professor of the subject in the uni- versity, in the case of a scientific chair an ex-president of the Royal Society, or a category of that sort, but I do not want to go into details. The five persons nominated would elect the professor in the strongest light of public opinion. If a bad appointment is made by a board of ex-nfficio electors, opinion strongly amt loudly condemns it ; but the unu ritten law ot tliu university forbids the discussion of such personal matters in public or in print, and so the responsibility never comes home, tinder the system which I advo- cate the Central Board would very fairly represent public opinion, and the person responsible for an unworthy appointment would find liimself silently passed over in any future nomination of electors. My reason for recommending that the central nominating board should consist of persons elected by the indivi- dual Colleges rather than by Congregation or Convoca- tion is, briefly, that I believe a much fairer and more satisfactory board would be got together by this mean.'i. If Congregation were to elect, the representative.s would be nominated by jiarty votes on the initiative of party managers or party caucuses. In Convocation the case would be far worse. The profesror.snips would be the spoil of whichever [tarty was most submi-isive to its managers, and could bring u[> the G g 2 OXFORD. J. L. Strachan Davidsov, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. 236 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMlIISSlON: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. J.L. Strackan- Davidson, Esq., M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. largest number of country voters. Direct election to professorships by Convocation is, I believe, universally condeninecl in the light of experience, and indirect election would be almost, if not quite, as bad. I may notice that the Board of Studies for the School of Literje Ilumaniores recommended that the elections by Convocation to professorships should cease. Now in each individual college the character of the per- sons proposed for election would be intimately known. Every college contains some persons of sound judg- ment, whom nothing could induce to regard any consideration in the ordering of an election except that of efficiency and fairness. I believe that the great majority of colleges would choose such per- sons to represent them. Jt would be easy to add to the board a representative of the halls and of the governing body of the unattached students. II the s)’stem suggested should not meet approval as regards the appointment of professors, I venture to submit that in the case ot readers who are to take an active part in the teaching of the undergraduates, it is only right that the colleges, which are mainly respon- sible for that teaching, should have a distinct voice in their selection. In conclusion, I may mention that in general conversation in the university anxiety about tlie danger of unsatisfactory appointments to new offices is constantly expressed. I think that there is a pretty general concensus of opinion in favour of the creation of new teaching offices by the university, but assent to the j)roject is commonly given, with the proviso, “ if only something can be done to secure “ fair elections.” By “ fair election ” is meant election for efficiency, and not for political or theological opinion. That is all I have to say upon the subject of the readerships. 3830. {Chairman.') You are strongly in favour, for the reasons you have given, of the proposition which the Hebdomadal Council have recommended, that they should be capable of being united with college tutorships ? — Very strongly. 3831. And you think that without that they never could be made useful ? — Quite so. . 3832. {Mr. Bernard.) You think that the reader should and would continue to lecture very much as he had lectured before in the character of a college or intercollegiate lecturer, or do you think that the sub- ject or style of his lectures would be likely to be changed ? — I think they would become more concen- trated. It might easily happen that as a college lecturer he had been lecturing on two or three subjects, and that would especially be the case with the smaller colleges. I think that after he was appointed to a readership he would confine himself to the subjects connected with his chair. 3833. But he would still lecture with a view to the university examinations mainly ? — Yes. 3834. If he did not he probably would lose his class? — Quite so. He would probably also lecture on special subjects connected with his chair to select audiences. 3835. ( Chairman.') The Board of Studies, in making that recommendation, accompanied it with this quali- fication, that the readers should not take such an amount of college work as would interfere with the duties of their readership. As I understand, you would recommend that they should only take such college work as would coincide with the duties of their readerships. I mean that they would give such lectures, both to members of their own colleges and to all other members of the university, as should be prescribed to them, and would do no other work in the college that was not equally open to the whole university? — YTs ; I should like to be understood not to say too strictly that they would do absolutely nothing else for the college, but nothing of importance. 3836. So that according to your view the nature of their duties in the college would practically secure the object of that recommendation ? — Quite so ; the college would naturally relieve the readers of some duties which younger men might well undertake. 3837. {Sir 37. Jf\ Ridley.) Would you look at the readerships as a stepping-stone to the professorships ; would that be one hope held out to the readers ? — 'Bhat might be so; the readers would be persons who might be very naturally promoted to professorships, but I would not give them any sort of claim or vested interest in the place. 3838. That is to say, a distinguished reader in any subject might find in it a road to a professorshiir, with- out any limitations of the power of choice? — Yes. 3839. {Mr. Bernard.) Would the reader hold office for a term ? — I understand that is the suggestion, but I should imagine that while he remained he would be as the professors, holding for a term, but generally re-eligible. 3840. ( Chairman.) It has been suggested to us by some gentlemen that it is very desirable that all the professors should be members of the governing body of some college or other; it would be difficult to acom- plish that practically consistently with your view that none of them should be removed from their own colleges, would it not ? — If that -was done, it would be directly against what I recommend. lam thinking ihat it might be just possible to say that the jwo- fessor should always become by virtue of his appoint- ment a member of the governing body of his own college, if he is not so already. I never heard that suggested, but if it was thought so very desirable that they should always be members of the governing body it might be done. 3841. Supposing a professor were elected who did not belong to any college, your objection would not ap])ly ? — It would not apply, but I think that if he wished to take an active part in the teaching, it would be his business to get himself in connexion with some college as soon as possible. 3842. You agree that it is desirable that every professor should belong to a college, and be a mem- ber of the governing body of the college ? — So far as he intends to take a practical part in the teach- ing of undergraduates. I do not wish to exclude the other view of the professor’s duties, that he should give himself to study and research, but so far as he is to be a teaching professor, so far I tiiink he would do well to connect himself with the .teaching stalf of his college and therefore •with its governing body. 3843. Do you think it desirable that all jtrofessors of those branches of knowledge which enter into the university course should teach as well as prosecute researches? — -Yes, but I do not think it is necessary that the teaching should always be the most important part of their functions. 3844. {Mr. Bernard.) Would you extend that to persons who teach subjects not included directly in the university course ; do you think that they also should be required to lecture ? — I think so. I think everybody had better lecture if he can get an audience. 3845. {Chairman.) Now perhaps we may pass to the next point noted in your paper, which relates to the 11th sub-section of clause 16 in the Act, for diminishing the expenses of universit}^ education by founding scholarships tenable at any college or hall, or by unattached students, and so on. I see that you are prepared to offer some suggestions as to the pecuniary conditions which it might be desirable to attach to the tenure of any such university scholar- ships ; first of all, do you think that the foundation of such university scholarships is desirable ? — I think so. 3846. Will you state on what conditions 1 — It is quite a small point that I have raised. I imagine that it would not be allowed simply to cumulate such university scholarships with any college scholarship which might be held or gained by the jterson elected. If a pecuniary limit is to be fixed, I wish to point out the inconveniences of making this limit (as is some- times the case with school exhibitions) one to be reckoned exclusively of the endowment fur which it disqualifies. For instance, suppose the rule to be that the university scholarshij) is worth 50/., but not tenable with any other scholarshij) exceeding 60/. in value, then the holder of a college scholarship worth UNIVERSITY OP OXFORJ> COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2.37 S.')/. would receive in all 55/. plus 50/., making 105/,, while his companion who gained a college scholar- shij) worth 65/. would be prohibited from receiving anything in addition from the university. This anomaly might be avoided by providiiig that the university scholarshi|) shall be worth, say 50/., but that the holder shall not receive from any college endowment more than will bring his total annual receipts to 100/. 3847. I should like to know how that would work; in the case you put the college endowment being one, which, added to the university .scholarship, would make it above 100/., do you mean that he should then receive only so much of the money as would bring it up to the maximum amount? — (^uite so. 3848. The rest being accumulated ? — The college, I suppose, would deal with the rest, according to its statutes. 3849. There has been a suggestion made that it might be desirable to equalise the value of all the college scholarships in the university ; have you any opinion upon that subject 7 - — ^1 think it would be well to put a limit on the value of the scholarships. I do not think it is a desirable thing for one college to be bidding against another in the value of the prizes it offers. 3850. That is, there might be some .so small that you could not bring them up to the desired limit ? — Quite so. 3851. But you think there is a limit beyond which it is desirable that they should not vary ? — Yes. 3852. In connexion with that subject, I may also ask whether you agree to the suggestion that the age should be made uniform throughout the university at which scholarships should be given ? — I was going to speak of the age in connexion with the subject. The limit of age fixed for the candidates for such univer- sity scholarships will have an influence on the age at which undergraduates commence their residence in the university. I think that as a rule boys remain too long at school, and that these university scholarships should be limited to candidate.s under 18 years of age at the time of election. In answer to your question I am inclined to think that in view of the impossibilicy of getting colleges to co-operate in these matters, it would be desirable for some external authority to .say that the limit for .age for .all scholarships should not be higher than 19; hut I would not s.ay that the limit for all scholarships should bo 19, because I think if in the majority of the colleges the age were 19, it would be very desirable fi>r some colleges to put the age up earlier. That is analogous to the present situation. A great majority of colleges h.ave a limit of 20 years, but two or three, Christ Church, Balliol, and Keble, 1 think, 1 am not sure if there are any more, h.ave the limit .at 19. 3853. You would reduce the maximum limit ? — Yes. 3854. But leave them free to have a lower limit if they thought fit? — Quite so. 3855. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you think it a desirable thing to found any consider.able number of new uni- versity scholarships ? — I spe.ak with diffidence as this is a point where the competing interests of the several colleges are involved, but in the interests of the can- didates themselves I think it Avould be highly desir- able ; I think that the freer choice you give men in their selection of their college the better. 3856. Those I understand are to be scholarships to be given to boys coming u]) from school ? — Quite so, and tenable at any college, or among unattachecl students. 3857. Do not you think th.at there is now a suffi- cient supply in the university of scholarships given as prizes for proficiency ? — 1 think that the total amount is prob.ably enough. 3858. But, as I understand, you would think it desir.able that some of the scholarships should be so given as to be held at any college in ()xford, or by an unattached student, as the holder might choose ? — Yes; I do not think that any harm could be done by the creation of a few more scholarships, though caa-- tainly there appear t<) be a good many a.s one looks at the advertisements. Of course the foundation of such scholarships by the university would enable the col- leges to economise some of the funds which they now expend on scholarship-;. 3859. It is not now very difficult, is it, for a boj^ who has attained pretty fair jiroficiencj at school to get a scholarship somewhere in Oxford ? — I think it is not, if the candidate is content to offer himself at one college after another till he is successful. 3860. Are there any particular studies in which you would ihinlv it desirable to found addition.al .scholarships ? — I have not thought of that, mv work has been so entirely on the main lines of the Literm Hnmaniores School that I have not had any occasion to think of extra studies. 3861. {Chairman.) The next jioint relates to prize fellowshiiis. I understand that yon have some sug- gestion to offer as to the mode of election to them ? — As the question of the best mode of appointing to prize fellowships is extremely complicated, it will perhaps be most convenient for me to state at once the main features of the scheme which J venture to suggest lor the consideration of the Commissioners, reserving till later all argument and discussion of the pro|)osals. The scheme suggested is briefly as fol- lows ; — (1) That all the colleges shall resign to the university the income which would otherwise be expended by them in the payment of prize fellows. Each college would thus retain in its own hands only; the nundjer of fellowshij)s considered by the Commis- sioners requisite for its permanent tutorial staff. I might perhaps add for bnrsarships at some of the col- leges. (2) That the university shall found with the income so acquired terminable prize fellowships, which shall be alloted amongst the various branches of study, and awarded by competitive examination con- ducted by boards of examiners ai)pointed by the university. (3) That the persons elected (who might be called fellows, students, or scholars ol’ the University of Oxford) shall receive a stipend of 2.50/. a year, tenable for seven years without any condition as to residence or celibacy. They would remain members of the old college of course, but not as such be members o( the governing body of any college. (4) That in addition to the seven years the tenure of such a fellowshij) should be extended, (a) For any period not exceeding three years during which the holder may have been resident in the university, and engaged in the educational work of any of the colleges or of the delegates of unattached students. (5) For fixed periods from time to time in case it be shown to some competent university authority that the holder is engaged in research or study likely to produce results in important jrublished writings. (5) That out of the body;- of the fellows of the University of Oxford so constituted each college shall co-opt without exa- mination from time to time a certain nnml>er of per- sons to be members of its governing body. They shall be elected subject to their own consent. They shall receive no extra stipend as fellon s of the college, unless perhaps some small allowance for the trordrle and expense of attending college meetings. (6) dhat such persons (who might be called associate fellows of the college) shall cease to be fellows of the college as soon as the term of their university fellowship expires, unless they have been previously transferred by the college according to its own statutes to its permanent tutorial staff. (7) That the numbers of such associate fellows to be co-opted from time to time on to the governing body of the college, and the rules for selec- tion, shall be settled by each college with the sanction of the Commissioners in its own statutes. That is the scheme which I would pro])Ose. 3862. (Sir M. JV. Ilidlcij.) In addition to the income of 250/. for those fellows, would you give them the right to live in the college ? — Yes, if tlicy wished to be residents. 3863. {Chairman.) Is not 250/. a large sum to allow to a prize fellowship of that description G g 3 OXFORD J.L. Strachan- D ividson. Esq., M.A. 31 0;t. 1S77. 238 UNIVERSITY or OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. O XFORD. J.L. Strachan- Davidson , Esq.. M.A. 31 Oct. 1877. unconnected with any college position or duty ? — I take that as representing the average value of a fellowship, which of course in many eases represent.s a very small amount of duties. 3864. {Afr. Bernard.) It represents no duties at all in a great many cases, does it not ? — I supjiose so, except that I think most colleges have the power to compel their fellows to attend college meetings. 3865. {Chairman.) Is theie not a considerable risk of that part of your scheme breaking down which proposes to continue those fellowships from time to time upon their holders satisfying somebody that they have been engaged in research ? — I think that the body which would have to decide that would have to be chosen with very great care, and it is a proviso which 1 have put in because it seems to me the least unsatisfactory way of providing for research as apart from teaching, if it is to lie j>rovided for at all. In discussing this project, 1 shall ask to be allowed to assume that the old system of life fellowships on condition of celibacy may be con- sidered as out of the question. There was doubtless a good deni to be said for the system, but public opinion in the country seems to have pronounced decisively against its continuance. The general adop- tion of a system of terminable j)rize fellowships on the one hand, and of permanent tutorial fellowships on the other, being taken for granted, the difficulties to be faced in ]iroviding for the good government of the colleges are entirely new, and seem to demand new ]>rovisions and regulations. The project which I have submitted seems to offer the following advan- tages ; dr.-t, the apjiortionmcnt of the fellowships among the different subjects w'ould be made with a deliberate view to the requirements of each study, instead ot, as now, depending on the accident of the will of 20 different colleges. The colleges, too, in appointing the subject' for examination are bound to think rather of their own prospective wants for tuition than of the encouragement which may be due at the moment to any particular study. This evil is most felt in the subjects other ihan those of the Classical School; the theologian, the mathematician, or the student of physical science, has no means of guessing whether any fellou ships in his particular subject will be offered for competition the year he takes his degree. I should despair of any effective co-oj)eration between all the indejiendent governing bodies on this point. Secondly, the very difficult question of the character of the I’ellowship examinations, how much weight should be gi\en to general culture and literary ability, and how mmh to the deeper and more accurate knowledge of special branches in the vaiious subject.s, would also be determiued on some deliberate and rational principle. I do not wish to express an opinion as to the best solution of this very intricate (juestion, but I am sure that the di liculty will have to be faced, and that it cannot safely be left to the hazard of the opinion or the compromise of opinions which may happen to pre- vail from time to time in each individual college. The uncertainty than now prevails is, I think, un- settling to the candidates and tends to discourage serious and steady work. Thirdly, in the actual com- petition likewise the chances of accident will be much less if a number of fellowships are given away together. Accident may exclude the best man repeatedly from the first place, but it will hardly exclude him from being amongst- the first five or six. I may mention that this is my experience in elections to scholarships •ind exhibitions where a good many are commonly given away at the same time, subsequent experience shows that we are generally right in the men selected, but not unfrequently wrong in the order. Fourthly, the institution of a .'ingle examination for all the jirize fellowships' of the year would avoid one great evil of the present practice, namely, the waste of time aufi energy involved in the candidates for fellowships going about from one college examination to another. I ha^•e known case.' wln re two yi'ars have bc'en spent in a coc'tant '(‘rics of examinations and di-saiijioiiit- ments. I mean by men who eventually got fellow- ships. Fifthly, I think that the presence on the governing body of a college of a certain number of younger men not members of the permanent tutorial staff is a distinct advantage. They prevent a college from getting too much in a groove, and supply it with some light from the outer world. But I think that such non-tutorial fellows, though useful as a sub- ordinate element, should never be allowed to become a dominant force in the college. Under the system proposed, each college would deliberately settle with the aid of the Commissioners the number of associate fellows whose presence is desirable on its governing body. If the present system is continued under the new conditions of terminable fellows and marrying tutors I think all .sorts of confusion will ensue. The poorer colleges will feel that non-resident fellows are an expensive luxury, that all their funds are necessary in order to secure the efficient working of their strictly educational body, and so a movement will begin for the suppression of prize fellowships in some colleges altogether. I think that the loss of this element in those colleges would tend to impair their usefulness and ability in government. On the other hand, if the number of prize fellows is to be determined liy the accident of the wealth of each college, some colleges will find their governing bodies dominated by a con- stantlj'- shifting majority of junior fellows, in presence of which the [lermanent tutorial staff will be power- less. Under the system of seven years’ tenure there will be rapid changes in the tone and opinion of such colleges. What one generation of them has begun the next will strive to undo, and anything like a fixed character or jxdicy will be impossible. I am aware that the great difficulty in the scheme I have ad- vocated will be that the richer colleges think that dignity is reflected on them by the long train of non-resident fellows who appear on their lists ; but I think they will hardly seriously wish their fortunes for the future to be committed to the hands of a body so fluctuating as that which will be produced by the introduction of terminable fellowships into the present system. Sixthly, perhaps the greatest of all the advantages of the scheme proposed is, that it would supply a central reserve of men from whom the teaching body of the colleges would from lime to time be recruited. Under the present system a college must fill up its tutorships, (l.)from the limited number of fellows who happen to have been successful in its own partieular examinations. These persons are felt to have a prior claim to tutorships; so that tutors are often practically appointed by a competitive examina- tion, which is not a very satisfactory test. (2.) From among the fellows of other colleges. Over these it has a very jirecarious hold ; if they are successful as tutors their own college is very likely to demand their services, which can hardly be refused. Again, they have onlv a di\ided interest in the college where they are taking work; they cannot be placed on its govern- ing body ; and in general the feeling that they would be slighting their own college will prevent them even living within the same walls as the undergraduates whom they are instructing. (3.) If a college employs tutors who arc not fellows of any college, thes(> feel that their position is anomalous, and it is exceedingly likely that the tutoi and the college may form different opinions as to the extent to which such employment gives them a moral claim to a permanent place in the college. That is the jiresent state of things. Under the sysiem proposed a college desiring to recruit its tutorial body would elect on its governing body one of the university fellows who w^as under- stood to be rearly to accept temporary work. Such a man would bring his dow ry along wdth him, and could afford at first to serve the college for a moderate remuneration. In the meantime the college would have the opportunity of obsiTving his work. If it were found that he wms suitable for the post it would naturally transfer him at the end of about three years to its ])ermanent tutorial list. A man who had inis- faken his vocation, finding himself not so transferred, UNIVERSITY OE OXFOIID COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIUENCI' 239 would niiturully iit the end of that time leave Oxfoid and take to some other line of life, carrying with him the rifjht he had gained to a seven years’ stipend from the universiiy. When the system was in full woi king the body of tutorial fellows in any college, though it might contain some members put on by extraordinary elections, would consist in the main of persons who had been, and for seven years still continued to be, fellows of the University of Oxford, who had been co-opted as associate fellows by the college, and had after three years of probation been transferred to its permanent staff. kSeventhly. From a very rough cal- culation derived from the University Calendar I think that the stock of fellowships available would be amply sufficient to enable the university to offer for compe- tition 20 or even 25 prize fellowships a year. 1 think that the co-oj)tation of one associate fellow should take place every other year in the small colleges, and every year in the larger. In any case the associate fellows should always be the minority of the governing body. Thus there would always be a stock of uni- versity fellows more than sufficient for all the colleges to choose from. Eighthly. I may mention in con- clusion that the jiroject of founding fellowships be longing to the university as distinct from the colleges was, as far as I know, first started by Ur. Pusey, as a proposed solution of the question of religious tests. The principle was embodied in Mr. Gladstone’s bill for the reform of the Irish Universities. It has also been suggested in a scheme for reconstiluting the University of (Oxford, published by Mr. Robert Laing, Fellow of Corpus Christi College. 3866. {Sir M. Ridlc;/.) Do 1 understand that the tutors and fellowships of ih. colleges woidd always be obtained from the fellows of the university? — I think that the colleges should have the rieht under peculiar circumstances, say by a two-thirds majority, and with the consent of the visitor, to elect a person a tutorial fellow from outside, but that as a general rule the tutorial fellows should work iqi from the list of the associate fellows. .3867. Then 1 understand you to say in starting that the first thing before getting funds for the purjtose of these university fellows would be for each college to make up its mind what it required lor these educa- tional purposes from time to time? — Yes. 3868. And the rest of the money should be made over for university purposes ? — ^'es. 3869. That implies a separate election and appoint- ment on admission into the tutors’ list, does it not ? — No; 1 would allow the college to transfer from the associate list to the tutorial list any fellow after three years’ service. 3870. And then that there should be an addition to the associate fellow’s in some when he was doing tutorial work ?— Undoubtedly. 3871. {Chairman dj We have heard that it is the opinion of some that this large number of prize fellow- ships which now exists in the university', and which would be increased if they were made terminable, is a very good thing-; do you think it clear that if they' were entirely taken out of the colleges, and this large number given to the university, it would be thought the best way of disposing of them to create such a great number of prize fellowships? — I think that we can do very well with 20 prize fellow'ships a year, or even with 25, taking an account of all the various subjects. 3872. May not prize fellowships be things which hardly anyljody would have thought of a priori, but which [leople may be inclined to retain, finding them an existing institution; is there any institution in which you can find anything parallel to it except in the universities of Oxford and Cambridge, where it exists on account of the constitution of the colleges ? — OXFORD. Still I think that the existence of these prize fellow- j ^ "strachan ships has been an advantage hitherto, and that they ' j;)nvidso 7 t might remain, even although it were thought that Esq., Af./i. keeping them simply on the governing bodies of the colleges would be mischievous. 31 0*^1 1877. 3873. An annuity for seven years, to 20 successful students every year, might, without experience, be thought an anomalous institution, might it not ? — I supjiose so in any other place, but here we are accus- tomed to it. 3874. 'fhen do not you think that the association which leads to its being valued as it is would be a great deal disturbed by this plan of handing over all the surplus income of the colleges to the universities, and founding a new kind of prize fellowshijis ? — I think not. I think that the essence of a fellowship, as soon as it is made terminable, is that of an annuity, and that it will matter very little to its value as a prize as an encouragement to learning, and as an aid to men in getting on in their professions, whether it comes from the university or from a college. 3875. Considered as an aid to men on their entrance into professions, is its operation distinctly academical? — I think that such fellowships often enable men to take temporary work in the university with the view of testing, their own capabilities for the profession of a teacher under the peculiar conditious of teaching in this place. I think it is highly important that the colleges should have as large a choice as possible of men to do their work. This choice is greatly in- cretised by the presence of a body of men who can try their hands at university work with the conscious- ness that if it does not suit them the fellowship will give them support while changing their profession. The same consideration leaves the colleges more free to decline giving permanent work to one who has proved unsuccessful in his temporary trial. Thus a college tutor not unfrequently relinquishes his posi- tion for the bar, or for the literary ])rofession, for a schoolma-tership, or for teaching in some unirersity where he will be more independent in his methods and not obliged to work as part of a system. On the other hand, some of the most valuable tutors have been men who would not have committed themselves to this life beforehand, but have come to us after finding that, for health or any other reason, the profession of a barrister was unsuitable to them. I look upon the prize fellowships as providing a storehouse of both these categories of men from which the university may hojre to draw. 3876. You think as a matter of fact that they have had that effect, and that fewer professional men would come to the university but for those prizes ? — I think so. 3877- The proportion of successful professional men, say in law, that come from the university of Oxford,, relatively to the whole number, is not very great, is it ? — I believe not, but I think that it would be very much smaller if there were no fellowships. 3878. {3Ir. Bernard.^ I am not quite sure that 1 understood in what way yon thought that the in- stitution of these associate fellows would tend to diminish the evil of the fluctuating character which the governing bodies w ill assume when composed partly of termimible fellows, because they will them- selves also be fellows holding for a term ?— Yes; but the}' will always be in the minority. That is the essence of my scheme. 3879. You mean that the whole number of persons holding terminahle fellow'ships in the college would be in the minority? — Y"es; this arrangement would give more weight to the permanent body of the college. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 ii’clock. G g 4 240 UNIVERSITY OF OXI OKU COMMISSION MIN UTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Thursday, 1st November 1877. Present : The 1\igut Honoukabee LOUD SELBORNE in the Chair. 'Lhe Right IIon. The Earl of Rehesdale. The Rev. James Bellamy, D.l). The Right Hun. Montague Behnaru, D.C.L. Professor H. J. S. Smith, M.A. Sir Matthew White Ridley, Bart., M.P. The Rev. T. Vere Bayne and T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretaries . OXFORD. 7Vie Hev. Witliam Wolfe Capes, M.A. 1 Nov. 1877. Tlie Roy. William Wolfe Cafes, M.A. (Reader in Ancient History), examined. •TSSO. ( Chairman .) Will yon have the <;oodness to inform the Commissioners what yon consider to bo the wants of" the university ivith regard to the teaching of ancient history ; hj' ancient history, I presume is meant the history of Greece and Rome ? — I wish to speak witli regard to the ancient liistory of (freece and Rome as that ivith which I am specially concerned, and upon ivliich alone I evish to offer any opinions. .'1881. What do you understand to he the special needs in that department of teaching ? — Not so much more teachers as more organisation. .‘5882. What are the defects of the present system as to organisation? — There is scarcely any system of arrangement between the teachers at present em- jiloyed. The teaching is mainly conducted by college lecturers 'whose lectures are attended hy tlie men of different colleges on the intercollegiate principle, and those lectures arc entirely professorial in form and not catechetical, as in seme other branches of study. They are not therefore better suited to small than to large classes, and there is no order observable in their relation to each other. It may make my meaning clearer if I sa}^ that 1 have in my hand the lists of the intercollegiate lectures provided for Id different colleges, tliat is to i~ay, two combinations of six and eight. I see there that some six gentlemen are lecturing at the same hour on subjects that probably cover nearly the same ground. .S883. .Are j'ou now referring to ancient history in jiarticular ? — Throughout my remarks I shall be re- ferring to ancient history in particular. 3884. I see that in one of these lists for the final schools there are four lecturers in Greek history ? — Yes, and there is probably in this a want of system and a waste of power. Lecturers travel needlessly over the same ground ; they see the students for too short a time to ensure proper method in their reading ; they themselves compete on the principal of natural selection, and the least successful drop out of the list, but the men of their own colleges have suffered pro- bably meantime. There is no sort of relation between those lectures and the university lectures. 3885. There are some professorial lectures, men- tioned in these lists, upon the early Roman hlmpirc by the professor of ancient history and one other? — That is so, but there is no definite relation between them ; the times are put down in the college lists that men may know at what hours they are given, but there is no adequate arrangement of the subject, or division of the work among the persons engaged in the tuition. 3886. What would you suggest as the best means of correcting that want of method ? — I should suggest a board composed of a professor or professors with leaders, who should meet from term to term to map out the subject and to divide the work between them. 3887. Under the word readers do you include intercollegiate lecturers? — No; I am supposing that the work of the intercollegiate lecturers would be largely taken hy the readers. 3888. Do you think it would be desirable to transfer to the university, and take away entirely from the colleges, the duty of teaching which is now discharged by the intercollegiate lecturers? — Certainly not to take it entirely from the colleges, but I think that there should be a sufficient nueleus of university teaching to make organisation possible. At present the professorial teaching bears so very small a relation to the rest, that it has no power of guiding the intercollegiate teaching, or of coming to any arrangement with it. 3889. Supposing that additional strength to he supi>lied how -would you secure proper relations between the intercollegiate lecturers in the same sub- ject and the university teachers ? — The intercollegiate system was created to meet a need Avhich would be largely met by the board of professors and readers, and if once a system of organisation began, the other would group itself around it or connect itself with it. It -would carry more weight with it than a single professor or a single reader can be expected to do now ; it would he too presumptuous probably for a professor or reader to send out an invitation to all the teachers of ancient histoiy, and to ask them to meet and confer, but a board representing the study would be listened to ivith more respect. 3890. What relation would you propose to establish between the professors and the readers ? — They -would naturally be required to meet together, and the pro- fessor, if one, would naturally be the chairman of the board, and -would be a permanent member, and there- fore likely to guide to a considerable extent the action of the board as a whole ; but I think that their de- liberations should be conducted terminally, and the subject mapped out by them together. 3891. Would you make it a preliminary condition before anyone could be appointed a professor, that he should first liave performed for some time the duties of a reader? — I should not like to tie the elec- tion down too much to that ; I think it would be desirable that as a general thing tliere should be promotion from the readers to the professorships, although it might be undesirable to make it an absolute condition. 3892. A'ou said that the want was not of more teaching so much as of more organisation ; may we infer that you are not favourable to an increase in the number of professors of ancient history ? — I do not think that at all a necessary part of the scheme which I am proposing. I think that more good wmuld come from the creation of readers than from an increase of the professoriate. 3893. Then you would increase the number of readers ? — Y"es, certainly, I should propose a number of readers, say five, to hold office for five years, and so elected that there should be a vacancy each year. 3894. How would you propose that tliey should be appointed ? — By a distinct board ; certainly not the same board that might appoint to other offices. UNIVEUSITV OF OXFOUD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ‘A895. Do V )ii iiioan tliat there should be a distinct board for ancient history, or for Idstory generally ? — 1 think for ancient history only. 3896. How would you constitute that board ? — I should propose that the board should consist of the professor, or professors, if there are more than one, and of a certain nundjcr of readers, and also I would lay stress upon this element, uj)on electors named in each case pro hue vice from the colleges which con- tribute the funds. I think it most important that the college element shoidd be largely represented in that board. 3897. Do you consider it desirable or not that the readers should also be capable of holding office as tutors or lectures in the colleges ? — I think it very desirable that they should. The j)rincipal advantage, so far as I see, of the college lecture system, is that of the personal relations between the students and the lecturers. I should think it very desirable that by special arrangement the colleges should connect them- selves in each case with a reader, and should ask him to guide and to test the progress of the students whom they entrust to him ; that as university lecturer he should give lectures, and that as attached to a college he should undertake the personal superin- tendence of the students. 3898. Do you contemplate that under that system they would practically do the work now done by the college lecturers 7 — To a considerable extent. Of course that would depend upon the number of readers appointed. 3899. And upon a better arrangement? — Upon a much better arrangement. .3900. May I ask whether the present system of eombined lectures tends to secure the object of having the best attainable instruction in each branch, that is to say, supposing several colleges combine together, are the lectures given by the best man that they can su[)ply in any particular branch, say in ancient history ? — The choice of subjects rests mainly with the lec- turers themselves. I should think it probable that the most competent teachers in the university at the time are engaged in the work, but I do not think that the students have the full advantage of the competency of some of those teachers, since they are not necessarily guided to their lectures by the authorities of their own colleges. The teachers also have not now sufficient inducement to specialise their studies. 3901. Is there under that system a larger number of teachers in the same subjects than you would think desirable ? — I cannot tell how many teachers there are in a subject; it varies materially from term to term. Sometimes a single department is inadequately re- presented, and at anothet time there are five or six lecturers with their names to the same subject, and therefore naturally there is a great deal of clashing. 3902. We find that in the scheme in which Balliol and five other colleges are in combination, there are simultaneously lecturing in Greek history four lec- turers of different colleges ? — And at the same hour as 1 am lecturing myself, there are therefore five. 3903. Taking that for instance, I wish to ask you whether you think that it would work better if there were a smaller number of lecturers in Greek historv ? — I should think there would be little doubt that it would be better. 3904. Do you tliink that one would be sufficient, or would more than one be necessary for the number of students who attend the lectures? — It would be desirable. I think, to have more than one to admit of the different periods being treated, but not as many as five for that number of colleges. 3905. For the same reason it would be easy to have too many readei's in one subject ? — It would be possible, but not likely, I think, that we should have too many. 3906. Supposing there were four, for example, would that be too many, do you think ? — Four could not be too many for ancient history, embracing Greek, history, Roman history, with cognate subjects, such as ancient inscriptions or art. 3907. You think that if the subjects were properly Q C223. Ui divided between them, four would not be too many ? — Certainly not. 3908. But without some security for a division of the subjects they might be ? — -It is possible that they would bo unless there was some provision to render the intercollegiate lectures less numerous. 3909. {Mr. Bernard.') Would you think it necessary that that division should be enforced by the regulations under which they are appointed, or do you think it could be satisfactorily made by subsequent arrange- ment amongst them ? — I think it would be much better left to subsequent arrangement between them from term to term to meet the qualifications of the indi- vidual readers. 3910. A man perhaps would not wish to be always lecturing upon the same subject? — No. It would be very undesirable, I think, to tie him down at the time of his appointment. 391 1 . ( -S'fr M. iV. Ridley.) If such arrangement could be come to upon the combined lecture system, would it meet your objection to teaching by tutors as against teaching by readers? — I can see no difference between the reader and the intercollegiate lecturer provided there were proper selection and organisation, but 1 think that this can haidly be secured unless some pressure is brought to bear upo.i the colleges so to arrange. I assisted some 10 years ago at the beginning of this movement of the intercollegiate system, and something of the kind was then attempted. Now it has outgrown very much the earlier limits and the power of arrangement has not, I think, kept pace with the growth. 3912. Could you give us shortly an idea of the kind of pressure upon the colleges to combine their lectures in a more satisfactory manner which was at- tempted and failed ? — The attempt was made by three or four colleges only, and the few teachers who were engaged in those colleges could more easily meet and arrange matters. They knew perhaps more of each other tlisn they can do at present. 3913. ( Chairninn.) What do you consider to be the chief defect at present of the teaching and study in the department of ancient history ? — The great want I think is in the limited knowledge of what I may call monumental evidence or classical archa3ology ; great progress has been made in other countries in studies connected with ancient art and epigraphy and numis- matics, and the rest, and some important chapters of ancient history have been entirely re-written of late years in consequence of fresh knowledge being brought to bear on the subject. 3914. How would you provide for that defect? — For that I think fresh materials are requisite. It is almost entirely unrepresented here. I should propose some sort of museum of archa3ology, not only a col- lection of casts of statues, coins, monumental tablets, photographs, and specimens of palmography or manu- scripts, but a library of reference and, what I think important, a demonstrator attached to that collection to guide the students who may go there, not merely a librarian or a professor but a demonstrator. 3915. You told us that in your view the words ancient history are to be understood with respect to Greek and Roman history ; would you limit the idea of classical archaeology in the same manner, or would you include, for example, Egyptian orAs.syiian anti- quities ? — A good deal might be said for that inclusion, but I have no opinion to offer here upon that subject. 1 would ratber confine my'self to my own department. 3916. You are aware that the university authorities have also recommended this museum of classical archaa- OXFORD. The Rev. William Wvlfe Caples, M.A. i Nov. 1877. ology, and also a professor of classical archaaology ; do you think that would be necessary or desir- able? — I think at first at any rate a professor of eminence whose name would carry weight would be very valuable to stimulate interest in the subject. At present I may say there is scarcely any interest among the mass of students, and in the younger teachers exceedingly little knowledge of classical archa 3 ology ; therefore a professor’s name if it carried Aveight with it would be likely to draw students to his II h 242 UNIVEUSITY OF OXFOHU COMM LSS ION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. The liev. \VilUa7n Wolfe Capes, M.A. Nov. 1877. lectuoes and so give an impulse to the study of the subject ; but aftcnvai-ds I tliink a demonstrator would do more important work. 3917. I collect, therefore, that you think it would not be desirable to have a permanent professorship in that subject, although it might be desirable to make an eminent man a professor if you could get him ? — Quite so. 3918. With regard to other means of promoting the study of ancient history, have any occurred to you as desirable ? — Yes. I have felt for some years past that it would he exceedingly desirable, if possible, to establish some such institution as that of the Ecole Frau 9 aise at Athens and Rome. By that system the French Government sends out promising graduates who are likely to be recalled to professorial chairs afterwards. It guides their work for a couple of years at Athens or Rome, gives them definite work to do, encourages them and guides them in their reading, and brings them back, I think, much more valuable occupants of professorial chairs than they would have been before, Germany j)rovides also something of this kind. 3919. Is the subject of their studies at Athens or Rome chiefly topographical, or is it in local antiquities generally ? — Certainly not chiefly topographical, that is but one subject ; but the bias of the student is ascer- lained as far as possible beforehand, and the Committee of the French Academy guide his course of reading by suggesting subjects upon which fresh information is desired, and which can best be studied with the help of great museums of antiquities and art, and of per- sonal survey of historic scenes. 3920 . Would you have such work done as the ex- jflorations which have taken place in Lycia, Ephesus, and Myccnic ? — A good deal of such work has been done by the French students. Beule, for example, the late Minister, made valuable discoveries at Athens in the acropolis, and has produced interesting books in connexion with them. I should say that neaily all the names of French scholars during the last 20 years tliat connect themselves with classical history had been before connected with that Ecole Fran^aise at Athens, 3921. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you happen to .know what number of such students the French Government sends .out to each or either place? — It is a small number, varying I should say from three to six study- ing at the same time at Athens. 3922. And those persons are called the Ecole Fraii 9 aise at Athens ? — Yes. Now there is a corre- sponding br.anch at Rome. 3923. {Prof. Smith.) You would suggest the estab- lishment of what I may call a travelling fellowship or fellowships for this ]iurpose? — Yes, but I should not wish the fellows to travel merely. I think there should be more of a corporate character about the arrangement. It should be a regular school of studies connected with one or both of our universities, and a sort of nucleus for students who woidd come out for short periods and who would be, I think, thankful to have some guidance for their studies when on the spot. 3924. But with whatever difference in details the institution which j'ou are advocating would in prin- ciple resemble the travelling fellowships of the Rad- cliffe foundation ? • — Yes, in principle there would certainly be some resemblance, and there would there- fore be a precedent for such use of university funds, though the details would not be the same. 3925. {Mr. Bernard^ Do you happen to know by vvliose advice the French Government acts in this matter? — It is almost entirely in the hands of the Committee of Classical Studies, a section of the French Academy. It is nominally under the Minister of Education, but it is the French Academy throughout which guides the course of study and determines the choice of students. 3926. I suppose they framed detailed instructions under wdiich the students pursue their studies and nvestigations ? — Yes. In using the term students, I w ish it to be understood that they are students of ripe age and attainments, that they are already distin- guished graduates, that work is expected from them in the form of essays, and those essays are commonly expanded in books of value. Such names as Beule, Coulanges, Foucart, Dumont, Perrot, and others, have all, I thiid<, been connected w ith that school, and they have produced valuable fruits either at the time, or in later years, as the result of their residence there. 3927. {Chairman.) Is there a fixed number of such fellowships, to use that expression for want of the proper word, or do they give them from time to time to such young men as seem likely to be useful ? — They are not bound by any fixed number. They con- sider each case severally. Generally there may be at least three or four. 3928. Do you know what is allowed to each of them ? — I do not know the financial arrangements. 3929. What would be your idea of the proper en- dowment for such a fellow'ship ? — I do not think that it need be much more valuable than an ordinary fellow- ship of a college. I do not think it likely that the French Government grants a larger sum than that to its students. 3930. {3Ir. Bernard.) You would think, would yon, that a sum of say 200/. to 250/. a year might be sufficient for each of those persons ? — Y'es; I think it likely that it might be. 3931. {Prof. Smith.) In wdiose hands w'ould you place the appointment of those persons, and the direc- tions of their studies ? — I think that that should be in the hands of the Board of Ancient History in Oxford. It would be far better if an arrangement could be come to between the two universities of Oxford and Cambridge ; but failing that, I should place their ap- pointment and their direction in the hands of the Board of Ancient History here, composed of the pro- fessor and a certain number of readers and other persons whom the university might appoint. 3932. {Chairman.) Is there any other suggestion wdiich it occurs to yon to offer to us ? — I should like, if I might, to make one remark. I should not like it to be supposed that anything which I have said implies any sort of jealousy of intercollegiate lecturers as such. I have no cause to complain of my own classes being reduced in number in consequence of this clashing. 3933. Your views are entirely formed with respect to the general tendency of the system ? — Yes ; and not with any peculiar bearing upon my own chair. 3934. {Prof. Smith.) You have been an intercol- legiate lecturer yourself at one time I think ? — -I have been, and I have had college work as well as the university readership. 3935. {Mr. Bernard.) I do not know whether you have stated what you contemplate as to the payment of university readers ? — I have not made any state- ment upon that point. I do not think that it need be so large a sum as that which was proposed by the Hebdomadal Council, namely, 400/. a year. I should contemplate tlieir doing a good deal of work by special arrangement for the colleges, work which college lecturers may do better than university lecturers can do, and the payments therefore out of the tutorial funds for that purpose would, I think, render it less necessary for the university to pay them so highly. 3936. Under that system the power of compulsion and direction as to the lectures which a man should attend wmuld still remain, would it not, wnth the col- leges as now ? — It w'ould still remain with the colleges as now ; but they would have less motive, I think, to submit to an inferior arrangement provided the whole study were better organised. At present it is often mere accident whom they are sent to. If anyone in the college is lecturing in a subject in which they need instruction, it seems more natural to send them across the quadrangle than to send them across Oxford. 3937. Supposing there were two lecturers of dif- ferent colleges lecturing upon the same subject, would it be easy, do you think, for an undergraduate of one of them to go, if he preferred it, to a lecturer out of the college, rather than to the lecturer on that subject UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 24,3 in Ills own ? — Tliey practically arc sometimes excused from attending their college lecture provided they find it is not quite suitable to their requirements. There is a little difficulty about it, no doubt, but that difficulty would diminish, 1 think, very much by the weight which a board of professors and readers, mapping out the subject, would carry Avith them. 3938. For that purpose it is material, is it not, that the colleges should have such a substantial voice in the creation of the board as you i)ropose to as.sign to them ? — It is most important. I should dciu'ccatc very much putting any large amouut of power in the way of appointments to teacherships in the hands of a single board, or of gentlemen nominated by the university solely. I think it most important that there should not only be a large infusion of the college element, but that it should vary from time to time, and electors should be named, pro hac vice, so that it should be impossible to forecast rvho the electors should be, and what their political or ecclesiastical sentiments might happen to be, that the matter might entirely rest, as far as possible at least, on its merits. 3939. {Chairman.) With respect to the question which you were just now asked as to the power of an undergraduate to go to tutors not of his own college Avhen both Avere lecturing on the same subject, I presume he would not do that without some com- munication with the tutor of his own college, woidd he, at present ? — That Avould depend very much upon the college tutor and his influence. They sometimes do provide themselves with instruction out of the college, of Avhich the tutors are not made atvare ; but Avhen a proper relation exists between the tutor and the men, no doubt his advice is at all points sought. 3940. But his absence from the lectures given by his OAvn tutor Avould be taken notice of in some way ? If he did not go beforehand and state his intentions, Avould not some inquiry be made ? — Certainly. 3941. And then Avhen he said that he had gone to to the other lecture, avouUI not that be folloAved by an inquiry why he did so ? — Naturally, yes. 3942. And it Avould be satisfactory if he shoAved that he Avas folloAving a line of study Avhich coincided Avith the lecture that he Avas going to ? — It might not always be satisfactory to the tutor or lecturer Avho Avas deserted, but it might be satisfactory so far as the student’s progress went. 3943. It would be more satisfactory, Avould it not, even to the tutor, if it appeared that the other lecturer Avas engaged in the treatment of a subject differing from his oAvn, Avdiich fell in with the undergraduate’s studies ? — Yes. 3944. Supposing that both were treating the same subject in the same manner, and if no distinction could be alleged except personal preference, I presume that would not be satisfactory ? — No. 3945. Therefore the influence of the college would be against any such freedom of choice ? — It naturally Avould tend to limit it. 3946. {Mr. Bernard.) I suppose that as a man advances in his university career, the freedom alloAved to him in this respect becomes greater? — Yes; it usually does so. 3947. You remember, do you not, an earlier state of tilings in which an almost complete freedom Avas alloAved to an undergraduate reading for honours, especially as he advanced ? — That Avas corr»>nonly the result of a very inadequate supply in each college, coupled Avith the maintenance of the old idea that each college must be self-contained. 3948. At that time the instruction to undergraduates reading for honours Avas really given in the main by private tutors, was it not ? — It was. 3949. And now it is given mainly by the colleges ? — Yes ; mainly by the colleges, with a certain amount of aid from the university lecturers. 3950. His liberty therefore would naturally to some extent be less, but still I suppose that he Avould be allowed, as he advances in his career, some consider- able discretion ? — I was not advocating so much the liberty of the student as the better guidance of the student. He himself is not in a condition at the be- ginning of term to know Avhat will be good for him; and his tutor cannot always knoAV Avhat arrangement will be best for him, because the lecture lists cannot indicate the mode of treatment, or ensure any regular method in instruction. 3951. I suppose a man seriously reading for honour’s Avants in fact a little moi’e direction than good advice in the later stages of his university career ? — I think myself he does not Avant so much in the way of lectures as he is popularly supposed to do in Oxford, but he generally has that stimulus from first to last. OXFORD. The Rev. William Wolf Capes, M.A. 1 Ncv. 1877 3952. By direction and advice I meant as to the lectures that he should resort to, rather than as to the number of lectures that he should attend; do you think yourself that the men feel themselves I’ather overpressed by the number of lectures that they have to attend? — Some feel themselves, I think, overpressed by the lectures that they ilo attend. I think that far more are really overpressed without feeling it, and that their time is taken from their oAvn Avork by their attend- ing so many lectures. 3953. {Sir M. W. liidlep.) Speaking generally of the men who are readiiifi for the School of Id terse O , Humaniorcs, is there any compulsion Avhatevcr to go to any lectures Avhen a man is reading for honours, provided he is known to be studying, and tells his tutor that he is working ? — I .should say that pressure is brought to bear upon him during a good part of his time to attend a certain number of lectures, but that it is far less necessary than it AA’as in former days. In my OAvn undergraduate days pressure Avas applied upon uuAvilling attendants. Noav the attendants are exceed- ingly Avilling, they in fact liaA'C an undue appetite I think A’cry often for the intellectual food that is provided for them. 3954. {Prof. Smith.) Do you intend that your organising board should consist entirely of professors and readers, and of no other persons? — The profes- sors and readers would of course have the power of organising their OAvn Avork, I think it might be A^ery desirable that there should be invitations addressed by them to other intei’collegiate teachers Avhom they kneAV Avere engaged in the same department, so that the organization might extend to them also, but I do not see that, they can be entrusted Aviih the power to enforce it. 3955. If you gave them any Avider power than that of merely organising their OAvn lectures, then if I un- derstand rightly you Avould propose to add to them other persons also ? — I should do so, and especially in connexion Avith any fellowships established for study at Athens or at Rome. I think that in the contingency of any such institution being arranged for as I have proposed, then the constitution of the board Avould require reconsideration. 3956. {Chairman.) With regard to the AA’orking of this system of lectures perhaps you will tell us hoAv matters arrange themselves with respect to the study of different subjects ; for instance in the Ethics of Aristotle there are several lectures given on certain days, and in Greek history several lectures giA’en, and I Avill •assume that they may be on the same days. I presume that the students Avould study Greek history at one period of their course, and philosophy at another period of their course : — the two things could not go on together pari passu Avith the same students, could they? — They certainly do go on together ; a certain amount of history and a certain amount of philosophy is arranged for each student every term. 3957. IIoAV could a student attend the lectures, if there were no arrangements made to prevent those in Ethics, and those in Greek history from being given at the same hour on the same day ? — It is supposed that in case of clashing between A and B, A being the lecturer on ])hilosophy and B the lecturer on history at the same hour, the student would not go to both, but he Avould choose the one whose instruction he II h 2 UNIVEKSITV OF OXFOKU COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2U OXFORD. The liev. William Wolfe Capes, M.A. 1 Nov. 1877. needed most, and provide for the other study as he best could with the choice allowed him in the lecture list. 39o8. \Prof. Smith.) Does not this point to the advisability of the arrangement of the lectures being supervised by some larger body than, for example, the Board of Ancient Histoiy in the subject of ancient history', or the Board of Philosophy in tlie subject of philosopliy. Would it not be desirable that there should be some larger body entrusted with some organising power to prevent the clashings to which you have referred ? — It might be desirable, but I think it would be almost impossible so to arrange it with so many lecturers as I have stated, unless there were a very ditferent system from the present. It the lectures went on as they do in a CTernian university for 12 hours in the day', it would be easy enough to prevent clashing, but if they are to be crowded into three or four hours, I believe that no system that can be devised can entirely prevent it. 3959. (Chairman.) Does the difference there arise from the greater zeal of the German students to acquire knowledge ? — Rather from the different habits that they bring up from their schools with regard to gymnastic exercises and other pursuits. 3960. (Mr. Bernard.) And perhaps also from dif- ference in the habits of the teachers — Possibly, but to a far less extent. 3961. May I ask you at what time those schemes of lectures are framed and published ? — Commonly I think at the end of eacli term for the followino- term with a revised edition sometimes with consfderable alterations at the beginning of the term, as lecturers leave Oxford or change their work. 3962. So that you, for instance, have made up your mind, and given notice at the end of the sunnner term, of your subjects and days of lecturing for the Michaelmas term ?— Of the general subjects, without going into details. 1 never can change the time, be- cause there is only one lecture room at the disposal of many lecturers and we are forced to keep to the same hour alway's. 3963. Had you this list given you, or had any com- munication been made to you upon the subject by the board who issued this list? — Notice was published in the Gazette, as is usual at the end of each term. The witness withdrew. The liev. Iltnry O. Coxe, M.A. The Reverend Henry O. Coxe, M.A. (Bodleian Librarian), examined. 3964. ( Chairman.) Perhaps you will favour the Commission with your views as to the wants of the Bodleian library ? — I presume it is on the (piestion of funds, how much money we want, that I am to speak. 3965. What is the money wanted for ? — The simple case is this ; we are, and have been, very short of money for keeping our library in that state of effi- ciency in which it ought to be in respect of books, new and old, and we want money to meet the actual expenditure of the year. As to books ; we are very deficient in books printed in England at the beginning of the present, and the end of the last, century. These we might make up, and do occasionally make up, from time to time ; but we have not funds enough for all the outlay required. Again, we are very deficient in foreign literature. There is a great deal of Ger- man and other literature in which we are very de- ficient indeed, and which for the same reason we are not able to make up for want of money. Besides this, we want money to iiurchase duplicates, for with new reading rooms, which I hope we sliall have shortly, we shall want many duplicate copies of books for the use of readers as well as to supply those which are worn out by being continually in hand. And here I wish to mention, that I do not agree with the idea gone abroad in the university and elsewhere tliat .‘special libraries — libraries, that is, representing special faculties by their collections — ought in any way to interfere with the supply of similar works to the Bodleian. 3966. There are three such now in Oxford, are there not ? — Yes. There is the law library of All Souls’, to which, if any, I should be more inclined to give in, because it is so close to us that it may be considered part and parcel of ourselves. There is the old physic library, as it was called, now the founda- tion of the natural science library at the museum, and there is also the library of foreign literature at the Taylor Institution. These meet a certain want so far as they go, but the very fact of there being a demand for these specialities makes it to my mind the more necessary that the Bodleian if it is worthy the name of a library at all should be wholly and entirely independent of them. I say nothing against them, I think they are extremely useful and popular, but I do say that in a great library like ours we ought to be represented in all those faculties ourselves. General readers must constantly want to have books on natural science at hand, and we have no busi- ness to say to them, ‘‘You will find what you want “ the other side of Magdalen Bridge, we have not got “ it fo)- you here.’’ I say again, tliat a library to be wortliy of the name of a great library, ought to have in it expensive natural science books, expensive law books, expensive botanical books, books of works of art especially, and that if we are not provided with these we are not the library that we ought to be. It would require, of course I am not prepared to say what, but a very considerable outlay to keep ourselves up in those different departments. 3967. Can you tell us what your annual outlay upon books is? — Our present outlay upon books is somewhere from 1,500/. to 1,800/. a year. 3968. Speaking (piite roughly, what increase in that should you think desirable ?~I should think certainly 2,000/. a year additional. I mean that we ought to be prepared to make large purchases. There is a case in point this very day. I am expecting a catalogue of Slavonic literature which has been oflered to us at 250/. I am not an expert in that direction myself, but I am told that Slavonic literature is assuming very great importance. And we must bear this in mind, that we are not now speaking of the Bodleian merely as it is, or merely as it was in former days. We are sjieaking of the future, and of the anticipated usefulness of, and additions to, the Bodleian. We are shortly going to have the schools given to us, and with them a very large additional area. Our col- lections are not to be merely confined to classical litera- ture, but are to be open to every other faculty that may be introduced, and we must be preirared for those readers that come to us upon any subject that may arise. I do not want to have the library made a British museum, nor to see the Bodleian other than a learned and real library for what is now called Research ; but to do that we do want a very large sum of money. I should say that at least we shall want 2,000/. extra. 3969. That is making in round numbei’s about 3,500/. a year ? — I should think quite that. 3970. (Earl of Redcsdale.) According to your statement you also would ixapiire a large outlay in order to bring the library up at once to its proper state ? — Yes. 3971. Besides the annual expenditure you say that you require a number of books which necessitate a present outlay to a considerable amount ? — No doubt, but then I can scarcely say how much we should want in that respect, for this reason, that there are many of those deficiences or lacunaB so difficult to fill up. \Ye can only get them by large collections being broken up. But to recur to the question of expenditure. There is first what we may call Terminable expenditure. We have to look in the face a very large outlay to furnish all this new area which I have spoken of. There are here five new schools, and these schools to fit up will cost each at least, I should say, from 1,000/, to 1,100/., that is 5,000/. or 6,000/., and' that is money which we must have. Then another great o\itlay is UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 245 in the expense of binding, where for lack of fnnds we are in a very miserable condition. We have the ordnance maps, with few exceptions, remaining un- bound, all of them costly to bind. You cannot put five or six sheets of them together without a cost of something like 22 shillings or 25 shillings. We have also an invaluable collection of tracts — take, if you like, the Shakesperian collection that Malone left us, in which there are seven or eight or ten tracts together in a volume, each of which ought to bo taken out anart in the conduct of the viva voce examination, but should be present and join in the final judgment? — Those are details u])Oii which I have not entirely made iq> my mind ; at least they should be assessors and take part in setting the papers and reading and judging the papers. Whether they should or should not take part in the viva voce examination I think is not very important, because I think viva vocc examina- tion now is not of very much importance. So far as my experience goe.s, it so very seldom determines the class that I should not at all press this point, although I should not object to it if it were thought more desirable. But if the professors had to take a part in setting the (piestions and in judging of the answers, then that would be giving them a university position of im- portance, and it would he indicating to the men that their instruction was thought to .be important. At present the university provides the instruction, but it does not ask a single undergraduate ever to go near tire professors, it makes no provision on the matter at all. It is put in the statutes, as if it rvere the main object, that professors are to teach and to lecture six or eight weeks in a term, and yet the university does not provide the professor with a single hearer. 4106. Are those all the suggestions which you have to make upon that subject ? — There is one point with regard to the readers which I omitted, on which J should like to say something, if I might return to it. In speaking of the appointment of readers, or rather in discussing that question with the Board of Professors in my school, a question arose whether they should be allow'ed to unite with their readership the position of college tutor. I voted against that and felt very strongly against it, but I think it was carried against me. I wish to repeat my opinion that they should not he allowed to unite with the readership the position of college tutor. I think that a hybrid teacher, half university and half college, is very undesirable. I would let them be either university or college. I think that now the position assumed by the combined tutors is a sort of hydrid one ; but if readers were to be allowed by the university, and distinctly allowed to hold the office of college tutor, then we should have that hydrid class largely increased. I think it is always undesirable that men should have conflicting duties, and I think they would be torn between the demands of the university and of the college between what was desirable for the university and what was desirable ibr the college. I think again that if a person is to be a university teacher in any subject, his main time and attention should be devoted to that subject, and that he .should not be distracted by the many other claims — claims with regard to discipline, and so on, that interru])t the studies of a college tutor. Again, I have another objection. I think it would give them an unfair advantage over the professors who are not college tutors. I do not know that there is anything in the law of the university to prevent a i)rofessor from being also a college tutor, but practically I believe that very few of them are. I do not think that a professor should any more be a college tutor than a reader. Assuming that if you allowed it in the case of the readers, most of the readers, or a large body of the readers, would be college tutors, although the pro- fessors in the main would not, then I say they would have an untair advantage ; they would have their college men to fall back upon always to make a class. They would make things convenient for their own college men, and they would start at any rate with the advantage of being able to enforce the attendance of a number of their own college men ; whereas the professor is not able to enforce the attendance of a single individual. There is just one other little point which I should like to suggest about the readers. I think that the subject has been introduced in therecommendations made to the Council or by the Council that occasional temporary readers would he a very desirable thing ; that in providing for the wants of the university it would be well to have certain grants at the disposal of the university for temporary readers or professors. There often exists the case of a particular man who is known to be very good in a particular subject, it may be quite a narrow subject, and it may not be at all desirable that there should be a permanent reader or professor on that point, yet to appoint a man for a term of three years, or something of that kind, to lecture in that particular subject may often be of very great use, and that I would recommend. 4107. For instance, there may be some one who is better informed upon the cuneiform languages than other people ; if such a man could be induced to come to the university and give lectures, it w'ould be a great advantage ? — Y’^es. 4108. ( 3fr. Bernard.) It is the case, is it not, that a man reading for honours, especially what we call here a good man, is very desirous to go where he can get the best instruction available ? — Where he can get the instruction that will most avail him in the examination, it may not be the best instruction. 4109. Do not ymu think that under your system there would be great risk of this disadvantage, that a man would be sent by his tutor, perhaps, or at any rate would feel himself that he had to attend a pro- lessor because the regulations of the university re- (juired it, feeling also that the instruction most useful UNIVERSITY or OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 255 to him in tlie scliools could liavo been got better by his attending some one else ? — If one of my remedie.s were put in force without the other, I think he might feel that. If tlie certificates were put in force witliout assigning to the professor a definite and a regular part in the examinations, I think lie might feel it ; that is t o say, if you took one lialf of my plan. 4110. If the professor was sure to iiave some hand in the examinations, a man would then feel that it would be to his interest, from that point of view, to attend the lectures of that professor ? — I should think so. 4111. Do you think that the tutorial compulsion in this matter amounts to more than this, that a tutor directs his men to go to college tutors or professors indifferently, as he thinks it will be most profitable for them in the schools ? — 1 must say that I think it may be an unconscious leaning, but I think they have a leaning towards persons of their own body. I think that there was a considerable jealousy of the ])osition which the professors obtained under the last Oxford Reform Act, before they invented the plan of combined tutors, because their best men would go to the profes- sors’ lectures, and they invented the combined tutors’ system under a feeling somewhat of dislike that the professors should be obtaining so large a share of the teaching, and they succeeded in checking it. I do not think that they would at all recommend their pupils to go anywheie which they did not think would be advantageous for tliem for the schools. 4112. A tutor is commonly very anxious, is he not, as well as the student, that the student should do as well as he possibly can in the schools \ — Quite so. Therefore that shows the importance of the part of ray scheme with regard to the j)rofessors having a defiriile portion of the examination in the school. I should not object to the first part of my scheme being taken, or one half without the other, since halfa loaf would be better, perhaps, than no bread; but I do not think that the one-half — i.e., the certificate — would be quite half a loaf. It would be worth something, but not much. In that case your objection would lie, no doubt. 4113. {Dr. Bellamy.) Would you require attendance at professors’ lectures of all undergraduates, or only of those reading for honours ?— Only of those reading for honours, certainly. I have been thinking, in the main, of those reading for honours in the final classical school, but certainly I would not require the attend ance of those who wish merely to pass. 4114. {Chairman.) I presume that your compulsion would operate only in this way, that those who offered themselves for honours in the final classical schools must produce those certificates ? — Yes. The witness withdrew. The Rev. Mark Pattison, B.D. (Rector of Lincoln College), examined. 4115. {Chairman.) From the note which has been handed to me I think that the most convenient course would be for you to make any si’ggestions wbich you are prepared to make to the Committee, without questions being put by me ? — I have made some rough notes, but 1 am afraid that they are rather of a disconnected sort. I have had very little time to ])ut them down on paper, and if I read tliem perhaps you will be kind enough to take into consideration that they are very disconnected. It has seemed to me that a great deal of time and ingenuity is spent upon dis- cussing questions in detail when many of the.se ques- tions depend upon principles which are still unsettled. To give an instance, I have heard much said upon the subject of free trade in lectures. Some persons lay a great deal of stress upon the desirability of allowing students to attend any lectures they like, thinking that the best teachers would come to the top in that way. Much can be said on either side of that question, but at the same time I may say that that is a question which really depends upon first deciding what is the general nature of the education that we intend the university to convey. I have tried to state what is the direction which it seems to me the university might give to its general education. Without entering upon disputable details, the functions discharged by Oxford through its college foundations at various times in its history might be reduced to three : 1. The enlarge- ment of the boundaries of knowledge. 2. The pre- servation of existing knowledge ; and, 3. The train- ing of the rising generation in the national tradi- tion. To take the first head, the enlargement of the boundaries of knowledge ; The conception of new dis- coveries was scarcely extant in Europe before the IGth century. Now the colleges were chiefly founded in the 14th and 15th centuries, and therefore this idea of progressive knowledge, which has now become the dominant idea in the world of intelligence, would scarcely be expected to aj)pear in the college statutes. From the time ofFrancis Bacon, this function. No. 1, or discovery, has grown in importance, and has come to be the chief stimulus of intellectual movement in Europe. This movement for a long time operated chiefly outside the universities. A world of science thus grew' up which was then in antagonism to the university. In the last century, for instance, at the time that Adam Smith wrote, it was a received belief among all men of education that endowments for learning were, as such, hostile to progressive science ; and it is only within the last quarter of a century that we may say that this theory has been practically refuted by the foundation of the museum and the reception which eminent . cientifie men iiave received amongst us in Oxford. Coming to the second head, the preservation of extant knowledge, that’ was the only conception which actually guided the pens of ihe framers of college statutes. The sense of wreck, of the dissipation of the treasures of literature and science in the middle ages by the movement of the nations, w'as deeply impressed upon the minds of intellisent churchmen of the 14th century ; and they seem to have sought in their colleges to preserve what they could of knowledge from the general ruin, and to create a new' order of clerics who should be the priests of this new culte, the culte of knowledge. It took 14 years' study to arrive at the dignity of Doctor in one of the faculties. 14 years, or a double apprenticeship, was thus supposed to be necessary for the acquisition, not of all know- ledge but of all knowledge of a particular kind, the knowledge comprised in a faculty. The college was designed to give a man a home and a maintenance during this long novitiate, and after it. The original object of a college was study, not teaching. The endow'ments w'ere intended to relieve the cleric from the drudgery of supporting himself by teaching, and to enable him to live for the acquisition of this common fund of knowledge. Coming to the third head, and looking at the history of Oxford, I believe Oxford has ahvays been a place of teaching ; there has ]>ro- bably been no time at which it has not attracted a number of young students who did not intend to study, but came to learn the elements. And this was the [laying part of the concern. In human affairs it is very well knowui that the pecuniary interest always carries the day in the end over sentiments which are more detached from practical urgency. The desire of knowledge is a natural instinct. The perception ol the utility of preserving knowledge in the social body is a perception derived from easily observed facts. But both the sentiment and the perception of utility are crowded out in the battle of life by the more urgent and persistent demands of pliy^ical existence. Hence it came to pass that elementary education gradually became the first and only object of the college residents. The fellows wdio held their fellow- ships on the condition of a life of study, by their own votes in congregation dispensed themselves from study, and even from its forms, and went olf to seek pleasure or fortune in the metropolis. The head and a few fellows, who remained behind in the building, devoted li 4 OXFORD. Rev. G. Raw- luison, M.A. 2 Nov. 1877. Rev. M. Pattison, R.U 256 UNIVERSITY OF OXFOKI) COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. M. Pattison, B.D. '2 Nov. 1877. themselves to tlie lucrative jirotession of taking boarders. We earn now something not far short of 40,000/. a year in fees alone. Ami what is still more important to us, by the profits on our boarders we are enabled to keep up our large collegiate establishments. Thus not only has our function in the conservation of knowledge entirely dropped out of sight, but the commercial value of a going concern of this magnitude makes such importunate demands on our attention as tend to thrust out of sight the spiritual ends for the sake of which it exists. So entirely are these ends sunk out of sight now, that I must seem to the practical tutor to be airing an unfruitful paradox when 1 say that the office of an academical teacher is a spiritual ministration. Vet no one has left a name in the annals of education who has not conceived of his office as such. As we ascend from the village school through the various grades, we leave behind at each stage more of the technicality of teaching, and come to feel more and more the direct action of mind on mind, and character on character — the mind and character of the teacher upon the mind and character of the pupil. At each stage mere instruction counts for less, and stimulafion to self-effort for more. It is a familiar fact that it is not the man who knows most who makes the best teacher, but the man who has most interest in what he teaches. For the same reason, also, systems of schooling which aim at loading the mind of the pupil with large stores of useful knowledge, are less efficacious than the system whose principle is to infuse into him a taste and ap])etite for knowledge. The mind and character of the young are formed by two influences, by contact in two directions; contact with his com- peers and e([uals, and contact with his superiors. Competition with eciuals is every wdiere to be had most freely in our public schools, of which it is at present the saving element. It is for the sake of contact with his superiors in learning and science that a young man is supposed to come to the universities. I say supposed, because such has now ceased to be the case in Oxford. Within the last i[uarter of a century a great revolution has taken j)lace in the university, biought about by the growth of competitive examina- tion. A youth of any ability now comes here for the sake of our honours and prizes. He has long before been put in training for this end. A clever boy begins to earn his livelihood at 14. To e.xcel in examinations is a profitable art. There are professors of it all over the country ; even the masters of great schools are compelled to meet this demand. Parents expect the schoolmasters to watch for openings in colleges, and to dispose of their sons to the best advantage. “ I will not take less than 100/. a year for that boy,” writes a master, “ but I have another, a good useful lad, whom you can have for 70/.’’ What the parents and the master want for the boy, and therefore what the boy wants for himself, are the prizes and distinctions. That the matter of the exa- mination is literature, or mathematics, or science, or history, is an incidental and irrelevant circumstance. “ I was studying law,” said to me a fortnight ago a youth who had just gained a scholarship, “but I am “ (juite ready to read classics, if that is the condition “ of tenure of my scholarship.” Occasionally a young man comes up to me who luis not passed through the hands of the professional trainer ; comes uj) full of ardour for self-improvement, and expecting, in his innocence, to find us ready to help him on this road. Such a one I had with me lately, full of enthusiasm, proposing to learn Sanskrit, and lo read some of the best books in English literature. I was obliged to say 10 him, “ My young friend, if you have come here “ with the hope of devoting three years to the im- “ provement of your mind, the sooner you lay aside “ such an idea the better ; we have bought you for “ SO/, a year, and w'e have entered you for two “ plates, mods and the final ; and you have got to get “ a first in mods next November, and it will take you “ every minute of your time to do that.” The relation of the })upil to the teacher is also revolutionised. The pupil comes to the teacher solely for his technical training, to ac(juire the style of the examinations. The teacher no longer stands to the pupil in the relation of an exemplar of wisdom and knowledge, and an in- spirer of noble aims ; he is a “ coach ” who has to take the pupil as he is, and put his (pialities, whatever they may be, to the best account in the way of earning marks. A dictum of Mr. Carlyle has been much circulated lately, to this effect, that the true university of modern times is a collection of books. I do not know the context in which this remark was made ; but if Mr. Carlyle was speaking of books and desirous of impressing their importance, such an assertion would be an allowable exaggeration ; but to take it out of its context, to turn it round and to apply it to univer- sities, would not only misrepresent Mr. Carlyle ; but would be to deny that element which is the essence oi‘ a university, namely, the contact of mind with mind, of the master of knowledge with the inceptor. Such a doctrine assumes that a university is only an exa- mining body and the pupil only an examinee. Where this is so books are all in all, and a teacher is only of use to point out what books or parts of books have to be prepared. Or at most the teacher can read the book a little ahead of the pupil, and prepare it for him as nearly as possible in the form in which ic will be called for in the examination room. This is hardly an exaggerated description of the function which the tutor in Oxford now performs. He dictates notes ; the pupil takes down these notes ; he is constantly reproducing them in essays, and finally produces them in his examination. The whole time of the student here is a preparation for the examination schools. And this preparation is not a free study of the subjects, but a drilling of his notes into the required shape. The examination is the measure of all things, and hounds the mental horizon of pupil and tutor alike. The pupil expects the tutor to give him what they call “ the straight tip,” and the tutor would never think of directing the pupil’s attention to any part of the subject but that which will pay. It will be said that this evil is one which it is within the com- petence of the academical legislature to remedy ; that the intervention of the suj)erior powers of the Com- mission is not needed for the purpose ; and, lastly, that it is an evil which your Commission could not reach. I feel the force of this objection. To come before you with this complaint is to ask you to lay your hands on our heads and convey to us a new spirit, the spirit of the pursuit of science and learning. But if you cannot do this there are impediments which you may remove, or recommend to be removed, and aids and means which you can supply. The number and value of the money prizes now awarded as scholarships and fellowships are not only far in excess of what are required as encouragement, but have created a lucrative profession which consists in seeking them. The gold fever which rages in the world without has been introduced into schools and universities by the competition for these prizes. As long as the fellowshi{)s remain, and are given to young men by competitive examination, this feverish state will be sustained. The infusion into the university, under whatsoever title, of a few men eminent in science, and known to be devoted to its pursuit, might in time have a beneficial influence on local opinion. If a number of such men engaged in cognate pursuits . could be incorporated as a college, they would act with more effect than singly. The existing colleges furnish a ready-made organisation for this purpose. It would only be necessary to provide a difl'erent mode of filling the fellowships. 4116. Are you prepared to develope a little more fully those last suggestions of a practical kind as to what mightbe done to correct the evil — If the colleges, remaining pretty much as they are, could be in any way so administered as to be filled with men who have already given some guarantees to the public that they are ready to -devote their time and interest to the special pursuits, that by one and the same stroke would remove the excessive temptation of a prize UNIVJiUSITV OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 257 pursuit, and would supply us witii a class of men iu which nt ])resent we seem to be ratlier deficient. 4117. Do you see your way to any mode of cons'i- tutiurettv much the same books, perhaps there would be less room for it tiian in other schools. 4170. In proportion as the subject was excep- tional you think I hat such a system would be useful ? —Yes! 4171. I see that you have also noted as a jioint on which you are prepared to submit your views to us, the age at which candidates should be allowed to stand for scholarships ? — That is a point which I put down with some hesitation ; but I have felt for some time that it was an evil in more ways than one that the age at which men commonly come up to Oxford should be so late ; and I felt certain that it was a matter which could never be influenced excejrt by such a body as the [iresent Commission, that is to say, it is a matter upon which the colleges can never take concerted action. It is a tlifficult matter to regulate, no doubt, but it appears to me that the age at which men in general come up to the university depends in a great measure upon the age at which scholars come up. 'fhe school- masters keep their boys hack to go in for scholar- ships, and both those who get them and those w ho do not get them are ultimately alike kept back. I do not think that there would be the same motive for keeping them hack if i lie age for scholarships were limited, say to If) or 18. 4172. Which of tliose two ages should you think would be the better limit, taking into account all practical considerations? — Personally I should at first sight incline to prefer the earlier age, but I do not feel that I have the different considerations suffi- ciently under my view to enable me to answer that (juestion. 1173. If the earlier age were fixed it might be diflicult, might it not, to ap]ily it without some in- convenience to the actual state of things at the public schools at the moment ? — I should think that very likely it would- 1174. Because they have for some time been act- ing upon the view of postponing the age at which their best pu])ils should go to the university ?- — Yes. The public schoolmasters must be consulted in the matter, 1 should suppose, but their evidence should be looked upon with suspicion on the ground that it is to their advantage in many ways to retain their boys. If any regulation were made as to the limit of age fur scholarships, care should be taken that it should not be evaded by a long interval, an interval say of a vear and a half, being permitted to elapse between the election and residence. 4175. (oint which I have more or less in my mind, that in my own ex- perience I have found that the possibility of giving assistance to a deserving man of some little ability (though not perhaps of such ability as would enable him to get an open scholarship), with the view of enabling him to stay a fourth year at the nniversily and to complete an honours cour.se, is a very great boon ; and such a person as you are describing would, 1 suppose, be of that kind. 4201. The suggestion which I understood had been made to us was with the view of keeping up the standard of o])en scholarships, which it is obvious ndght deteriorate if you limited them to any particula'- class of rich or poor. Supposing, after a scholarship is gained, the rich student to keep the dignity of a scholar of his college (which of course is a dignity worth having) upon a very small sum of money, and the poor man, on the other hand, having gained a scholarship, to have his scholarship further made up (say) to 80/. a year upon his satisfying his college that he had reallv need of assistance ; do you think that that w'onld be practicable ; th) rich men come in very much for your scholarships at Keble College ? — No ; I think at Keble the men who get the scholar- ships mostly want them. 4202. Eut Keble College has by no means entirely a class of men who want to live economically from absolute necessity ? — J think that the bulk of our men wish to live economically up to a certain point. A good many of them would come to college whether they came to Keble or no ; but I know certainly that some of our men could not have come to college without an open scholarship. 4203. {Mr. Bernard.) Were you going on to say that you would thiidc that that was true of scholar- ships in other colleges ? — 1 believe it to be true with regard to a great number of them ; and I think that this should also be noticed, which perhaps sometimes falls out of the account, that even in the case where to the man himself little difference is made by the possession of the scholarship, it may be that great difference is made if you look at the m.an’s family or the home, because perhaps another son receives the education which he would otherwise be deprived of. 4204. {Chairman.) i understand the plan which has been mentioned to be this : that there should be no test ot povertr , but that the scholarshij) when it was obtained should lie of small value in the first instance, and then that afterwards, if it were found that tlie person who was elected was in circumstances K k 3 OXFORD. Rev. E. S. I'albot. M.A. 2 Nov. 1877. OXFORD. Rev. E. S. Talbot. M.A. 2 Xov. 1877. Rev. ir. Bright, D.D. 262 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. which made more assistance important to him, tlie value of the scliolarship should be capable of being increased ; do you think that would work better than a system which discriminated between poverty and easy circumstances before the examination for the scholar- ship ? — I should think that that system would work awkwardly unless it was an uniform system ; because if any of the more valuable of the present kind of scholarships were retained, those must be the chief scholarships in point of dignity, and therefore the ones which the rich men would as such alone care to go in for ; but I am not familiar with the suggestion. 4205. {3Ir. Bernard.) It would be rather difficult, would it not, to draw a sharp line in such cases between rich and poor parents, since probably the great majority of the boys who get scholarships are the sons of parents to whom the scholarship is a sensible convenience ? — It is an extremely difficult question. The only way in which scholarships for poor men can be given is to draw as far as possible a certain line, and to class together all who fall below that line, and regard them all as for that purpose poor men. I do not think a further classification is possible ; and if that were done with regard to scholarships for poor men, I think the purpose would be served which I wish to urge upon the Commissioners; I mean that it would serve the purpose of the poor men who wish to come to colleges as well as of the unattached students. 4206. {C/ioirttian.) We have been told that the Grocers’ Company and some other civic companies have a number of exhibitions which are tenable only by scholars who satisfy the governing board of the company, or some other authority, that they are in circumstances which require assistance at the uni- versity ; and that, after this has been ascertained, the .scholarships are given l)y examination, and that the system works without ditfieultj' ; have you any know- ledge of the working of any system of that kind ? — I am constantly signing certificates for uch scholar- ships, but in all those cases the certificate is brought to me simply to sign as to good character. J see that the opposite page contains certain statements as to pecuniary circumstances, but I am never asked to testify to those, and I have not the opportunity of doing so. 4207. Is there any other point upon which you would wish to make any suggestion to the Commis- sioners? — There is the small point that it might be possible in the difficult matter of poor scholarships to plan an experimental system which should work for a certain time, subject to revision. 4208. That is to say, that if any scholarships were founded for a class of poorer students, it need not be a perpetual foundation, but a foundation which might be worked for a time and afterwards revised ? — Yes. With regard to the question of university scholarships, I have only to add what I have already said, that to any collegiate experiment in economical education, such as the one with which I am charged, no system could possibly be so great a boon. I could hardly say more than that. 4209. {Prof. Smith.) University scholarships tenablc at any college ? — University scholarships tenable at any college. 4210. Or by unattached students? — I am speaking of establishing two classes of scholarships. The first would consist of open university scholar, ships to be gained by competition as college scholarships are now. It would be a great boon to a college like mine if there were any such scholarships in the university, which a man could gain and then attach himself to any particular college. Then secondly there is the class of scholarships for poor men, to which I feel that other experiments in economical education besides the un- attached students have a right to make some claim. In the one case I speak rather of what would be a great advantage, and in tbe other I .speak of what an experiment like ours has perhaps some right to request or claim. The witness withdrew. The Rev. William Bright, D.D. (Canon of Christ Church and Regius Professor of Ecclesiastical History), examined. 4211. (Chairman.) Perhaps jmu will inform us whether in your opinion any additional professors or readers are wanted in the Theological School ?^ — To peak of my own department, which was the only point upon which I had thought before coming here, I should say that for the later period of eccle.siastical history, in order to complete the full force of teaching required, there should be some other professor. The professorship which I hold was founded with a clause in its statute which has been sometimes thought to define its province as relating rather to ancient eccle- siastical history ; it ivas a Professorship of Eccle- siastical History and the Study of the Ancient Fathers ; and the requirements of the Theological School hither- to have confined me entirely to quite the earlier or Patristic part, with an occasional lecture upon the History of Bede. In order to make full provision for such a field as ecclesiastical histor}^ I certainly think there ought to be another professorship. Some time ago, I may say, the Theological Board of Studies suggested Archdeacon Hardwick’s book, as giving a sort of summary of the Reformation period. I then for a year between the October term of 1875 and .fune 1876, had the advantage of help from an ex- tremely competent scholar, who gave lectures, as my deputy and by my appointment, upon Archdeacon Hardwick’s book. At the end of the academical year he told me that he had so few persons coming to his lecture, because that book was not a book which needed a special lecturer to carry men through it, that he thought it was not worth while to carry on the lecture. Since then, therefore, the lecture has been dropped. But I expect that certain subjects which the Board of Studies in the School of Theology contemplate would probably, I think I might say certainly, have the effect of making more men read that period. If that were the case I certainly think there will be still more reason than there was before for having a special teacher, in v'hatever form he might be appointed, to undertake that part of so great a field. 4212. Where would you draw the line between the two professors with regard to their particular subjects ? — That might be a matter for consideration. I think I am right in believing that the recom- mendation was made to drav/ the line at the fall of the W’estern Empire, A.D. 476. It might be drawn somewhat later ; it might be taken so as to take Bede within the field of ancient ecclesiastical history. That might be a matter which would admit of different treatment. 4213. You would not think it desirable to draw the line at the Reformation precisely ?- — No ; if mediaeval history is to be studied, I think that the second pro- fessorship should begin earlier than the Reformation. 4214. I suppose you could have none but an artificial line drawn between ancient and medimval ecclesiastical history ? — No. I was thinking at the moment of Arnold’s proposal to carry down his Roman History to the coronation of Charles the Great. A.D. 800 would be a possible mark for division ; but it is a matter upon which people might have very different opinions. 4215. The Reformation suggests itself as some- thing more than an artificial line ? — Y’'es. I ought perhaps to say that my predecessor. Dr. Shirley, did lecture a good deal, if 1 am well informed, upon the schoolmen, and upon that period ; but I do not know that any professor has made a special point of lectures upon the sixteenth century, or a later period. The inclusion of the Reformation jieriod amongst the subjects for the Theological School is of compara- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 263 lively recently date, about three years ago ; and I think it would he better done when we substitute (as I hope we shall substitute) periods with books recommended for a mere number of books required. When that is done [ think a person will say, “I will take the Re- “ formation period,” or, “ I will take the Patristic “ period,” as it may suit his taste and knowledge. 4216. Is it your opinion that if there were a second professor it would be well to define his pro- vince, in the same vague way in which yours seems to he defined, by making it a Professorship of Church History connected in the terms of the instrument with the more modern periods ? — It would perhaps be diffi- cult to find a formula which would exactly describe it. When I was appointed I was reminded, T remember, by the head of a house that my professorship by its terms belonged to the Patristic times. 4217. As a matter of criticism, it may be doubtful, may it not, whether that is so ? — It may indeed, be- cause a very eminent professor who held my chair went back long before the Patristic times, through Jewish history. 4218. The words that you stated to us seemed to be not words of limitation, but words of special indica- tion ? — As a matter of fact, the character of my lectures has necessarily been much determined by the sort or books required in the school. More than once I pro- posed some subject which was not in the school and I got but a few men. Therefore, as the books are chiefly Eusebius, Socrates, and Bede, I have been necessarily for practical purposes confining myself within that sort of limit. 4219. Do the candidates for ordination attend your lectures as well as those who mean to pass through the Theological School of the university ? — Yes, some do. They may take any professor’s lectures besides the Regius Professor of Divinity ; and some take mine, and some take Dr. King’s, and so on. 4220. I suppose the examinations which they would have to pass for their ordination would extend more or less over the whole field of ecclesiastical history, would they not ? — They now do. I know a bishop who suggested Burnet’s History of the Reformation, and periods of that sort. Perhaps it is more than I ought to say, but I think there will be an increasing disposition on the part of the chaplains of bishops to sugarest modern as well as ancient ecclesiastical history. 4221. Do you think there are reasons v.ffiich vtould make a readership subordinate to the professorship insufficient ; are you clear that it would be better to have two professors? — Upon that I have no very definite opinion. If the reader’s lectures were regarded as counting in the same sense as the professor’s do, I do not know that there would be any harm in his being a reader. 4222. You are probably aware that in the papers which have been printed by the Hebdomadal Council, there appear suggestions from Professor Stubbs that a professorship of later church history should be con- nected vvitb the School of Modern History, and not with tlie Tiieological School ; what is your opinion upon that subject ? — I do not know that I should like to commit myself to that opinion. So long as the Theological School recommends any part of modern church history to the men who go into it, so long, as I suppose, there will be a natural relation between that school and the professor or reader of modern history. 4223. {Mr. Bernard.') Would it be necessary to connect the reader exclusively with either one school or the other ? — I do not think it would be necessary at all. 4224. {Prof. Smith.) Would you propose that the new professorship or readership should be a clerical one ? — As a matter of personal opinion I should wish it to be so, certainly. 4225. {Chairman.) When I spoke of a school, I had in view the constitution of the Boards of Studies ; do you think that such a reader should rather belong to the Board of Studies of Theology than to the Board of Studies of Modern History, or would you say that he might belong to both ? — If it were possible that he should have relations to both without danger of any difficulty, I think that would be the best arrange- ment. 4226. \Mr. Bernard.) Would the professor, if appointed, find it practically necessary that he should lecture with a view to one of those schools exclusively ? — No, not exclusively, I should think. 4227. His lectures might be available for persons studying for the Modern History School, and also for persons studying for the Theological School ? — I think so. 4228. In that case it would be unnecessary to treat him as connected exclusively with either school ? — ■ What I, as a member of the Board of Studies of Theology, should wish is that he should be in friendly relations with both. 4229. He might be on both boards, in the same way as the Professor of International Law is officially con- nected with two boards ? — I am myself, as Professor of Ecclesiastical History, on both boards. 4230. {Prof. Smith.) You spoke of the lectures of a reader counting as if they were the lectures of a professor ; did you mean by that being accepted by the bishop at the ordination examinations ? — Yes ; being regarded in the mind of the bishop as being equivalent to attendance on a professor’s lectures. 4231. (3Ir. Bernard^) Do yon think that re(|uire- ment by the bishops of attendance on the professor’s lectures a useful one ? — I have no reason to doubt that it has been useful. It depends upon how many lectures a man has to attend. 4232. How is the certificate given ? — It is given by the professor after a man has attended. In my case I adopt the practice which I inherited from my prede- cessor; I give 18 lectures a term, and I give a certi- ficate of attendance for 16. 4233. Does a man who attends write down his name every time he comes to the lecture, or how do you manage it ? — He makes a cross opposite his name in a list that I have. 4234. You find no difficulty about chat ? — Not the slightest. Occasionally a man says, “lam In the “ schools, and 1 shall not be able to complete my “ 1 6 attendances.” In that case, if it is a bond fide case, I always write him a special certificate. 4235. But you find no difficulty in having a list with each man’s name upon it, each man being expected to put a ci’oss after his name every time he comes to your lectures ? — Not the slightest. 4236. ( Chairman.) You mention in the note which I have before me some changes in the School of Theology which will be soon in operation, and which will have some bearing upon these points ?— Y^es; hitherto the school, according to the statute, was bound to divide itself into certain heads, one of which was “ Historia Ecclesiastica et Patristica,” according to the phrase in the statute. The older habit of the Board of Studies was to prescribe a certain number of books, so many books of Eusebius for such a term, and so many books of Socrates to succeed them, or so many of Theodoret ; and also Bede. When modern church history was thought a thing which had a rightful claim to be attended to in the arrangements of the school, they added this one book of Arch- deacon Hardwick’s, but they did not do what now I think they probably will do, namely, propose to the student in church history a selection of so many periods, so that he may take the ante-Nicene period, he may take the period of the later fathers, or he may take tlie Reformation period. In that case he would have an alternative and a selection to make, and one man would take one period and another would take another period, and then 1 suppose the plan would be to recommend, rather than rigidly to prescribe, certain books to be read as helps by the student who takes this or that period. In short 1 think we mean to follow the plan which has been adopted by the Modern History Board ; I think that plan will be found at pp. 78 and 79. The Scheme K k 4 OXFORD. Tiev. W. Bright. D.D. 2 Nov. 1877. 264 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. II'. Brujht, '2 Nov. 1877. of the Moclcni History School is to recoimneud a clioice between so many periods, and to suggest for each period so many hooks ; and I think we should follow that plan in regard to theology in this particular department. If that is done, then we will say that the Reformation period was taken, and of course a variety of hooks in that period would he proj)osed, and not one book, such as Hardwick’s. Therefore there would be a greater inducement to men to read with due variety, and there would be a greater inducement to a reader to teach. 4237. (yChnirwan.) Is there any other suggestion that occurs to you ? — I think not. 4238. (Earl of Ilrrlcsdalr.') When do you hold the Retormation period to begin ? — I suppose it must begin with Luther. 4239. Not before Luther ? — If you mean the ]>re- parations for the Reformation, I should include the time of Wyclitfc, that is, ))art of the mcdiieval period. 4210. ( Mr. Bernard.) Have you anything to say about the endowment of new pi'ofessorships ? — No, I have not thought of making any suggestion. The witness withdrew. H. A. Potti?i(/er, Esq., M.A. II. A. PoTTiNGEif, Esq., M.A. (Worcester College), examined. 1241. (Cliairnian.) We understand that you take ])art in tlie combined system of lectures in Roman, International, and Real Property Law and Legislation. I presume therefore that you have paid particular attention to the Law School of the university ? — Principally to the Law School. 4242. We shall Ite glad to hear any suggestions which you may wish to make ? — I thought of offer- ing a few observations (wbicb will be very short) u])on four points which have struck me. One is as to the needs of the university with reference to kec]iing up its permanent institutions ; another with reference to the university as a teaching body : another, its needs as an examining body; and then I think I might perha]is make one observation with regard to the project of endowing researcln I have very little to say with regard to institutions, because I think that that will have been brought before your notice by more ca[)able persons, but I have one general observation to make, that I think the most difficult task^ probably of the Commission will be how to dispose of the superfluous money without doing any harm. I might perhaps be allowed to plead a little on behalf of those objects tliat cannot plead for themselves. If the money is spent on the ]iermanent institutions of the university, tile Bodleian and Museum for example, and not iqion individuals, if the endowment is of things and not of persons, 1 think that there is very little danger of doing harm. The Bodleian is in a particularly weak state ; there are great v acuums in the English de- jiartment, and the foreign de[)artment is lamentably weak. 4243. (l^rof. Smith.) You are yourself a frequent student in the Bodleian, are yon not? — 1 frequently go there to look for books, but I have given it np in many lines altogether, liecause it is of no use. In foreign books Mr. Coxe tells me that they cannot do it ; and there are a great many English books wanting. I have myself within the last two terms put several volumes into the Bodleian which they had not, which I accidentally happened to pick up. 4244. ( Chairman.) Do you generally^ find that foreign books which are not in the Bodleian are at the Taylor Institution — Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not : but on the whole there is a great deficiency. The foreign department is almost nil at the Bodleian. I think tiiat that is one of the most deserving objects. The museum is also another. The gentlemen at the museum are always coming iq)ou us for money ; I have no doubt that they really feel that they want it, and as far as their desires are reasonable I hojre they will be complied with; but on looking through theii- evidence lately, I do not think they are likely to get all that they seem to claim. Tire new schools will also cripple our income for a long time; it will be a long time before we are straight there. Further, the university is in want of lecture rooms. There is a great diliicidty there, and 1 think any money s])ent upon those institutions would be veryr well spent, even if in order io do it the univer.'ity had to annex All Souls’. .411 Souls’ I think we mu>t look upon as an university institution differing from other colleges, and 1 think that that would be one very good mode of finding the ways and means for some of this necessary expenditure. V\ ith regard to what I must consider a i)iece of university preferment, the fellowships at All Souls’, they arc intended for the encouragement of history and law. If the college rentains I would throw out two hints on the subject. One is, that the fellow'ships should be announced as being specially for history or specially for law, so as to prevent the difficulty of deciding between the relative claims when men are examined in both ; aiuj another is, that the examiners should be appointed in the ordinary way in which the university' examiners are apj)ointed, and not hy the warden of All Souls.’ The library at All Souls’ is very useful, it has become an university institution. I will now', with your permission, turn to the question of the university as a teaching body. This is the great question w'hich we have had discussed lately. There is a great diversity of opinion 'on the subject. All the boards want a large addition to be made to the professorships and to the readerships. My opinion is quite against that. 1 should say do not ap|) 0 'nt a single professor or a single reader. The University of Oxford is not like the universities on the continent. The confusion arises from comparing us with them. Young men come up here to be educated, they go to the German universities to be trained for their pro- fessions. A young man who comes here s])ends the greater part and some of them spend nearly the w'hole of their time in the preliminary classical w'ork. 1 hey have only a short period, sometimes a year, sometimes eighteen months, and some of them two years at the outside, but generally speaking they do not get more than eighteen months, and some of them even less than a year, I’or their special training. That training I maintain thev can get better in the colleges than they' can from the professors. Several of the pro- fessors in the university are fully aware of that. There is a competition, they say, bcuveen ^the colleges and the professors, and the colleges carry' the dav. There are in many instances very good reasons for it. I may' perliaps be allowed to refer to one or two passages by some of our j)rofessors on the subject. 'Flu re aie two Professors of His- tory here — one of them, speaking in the name of the board, demands any number of new professors and lecturers ; in fact, in those eighteen months or so that those y'oung people will have to get up their subjects, he is prepared to supply them with Eccle- siastical History', Northern Antiquities, Archaiology, Palaiugraphy, Numismatics, Alihtary History, and I do not know' how' many other sciences that they know nothing about when they began. I can speak from experience ; this is the th.irty-second year that 1 have been without interruption teaching in the univer- sity' ; as a general i ule, when the young men pass their moderations they come to me or go to others, and know nothing of tlie subject. What is the use of having fifty or a hundred professors of the subject to muddle their heads and drive them mad ? laven now they get bewildered. If you look at the requii einents ol the Board of Studies of the History School, the amount that there is there is perfectly astounding. They get entirely bew ildered and lost, and a great number ot them aban- don the work even now' and go into the pass-school. These prof’essorshiji.s, if they were loimded at all, would be founded not for the young men hut lor the professors, simply to make places for people to occupy, and 1 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION t — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 205 think that certainly is not desirable. They are not wanted by the youn<^ men. If it be thought advisable that the University of Oxford should be turned into a show university, so that we should be enabled to present a bold face to the continent, and say, “ Oh, we Iiave a hundred professors here,” and should not be afraid of their asking, “How many people do you teach ? ” that is all very well ; but under present circumstances I think we had better be satisfied with meeting the recpurements of our own pupils. I will endeavour to compare the teaching of the professors with the teaching in the colleges. From my experience there is no comparison between them ; the college tuition is infinitely superior. In the first place, let us take the ap[)ointing of professors. Of course there are remarkable exc;ei)tious, and in whatever I say I must make the remark ; but I am speaking of the general run; and of course, if we have a number of professors and readers appointed, that is what the majority of them will be. I like ahvays to put my opinion under ecclesiastical patronage, and it' I may be allowed to refer to a book that I have belbre me, which was written I believe by the Ikunptoti Lecturer of this year, and just to quote a few lines from him, they will give you my opinion at the present day. ibis opinion was delivered 27 years ago by Mr. Row ; he says : “The efficiency of the professorships is greatly “ diminished by the mode in which the appointments “ are frecpiently made. They arc considered in many “ cases cither as fair subjects for a party contest or “ as a piece of patronage. I could (juote numerous “ instances, especially in some recent appointments to “ professorial chairs, but I forbear. Whether the “ candidate holds the doctrine of ba])tismal regene- “ ration is often a very serious question in appomt- “ ments in no way connected with theology, far “ more |)crhaps than his ac(|uaintance with the “ particular ])art of science to which the professorshi)) “ belongs. I shall only draw your Lordship’s attention “ to the appointment of one [)rofessorshi[) as a sample “ of the rest — the highly important chair of Moral “ riiilosophy.” I should like that to be taken as my opinion of the present state of things. Again : “ It “ is well known at Oxford that elections to jirofessor- “ shiiis are determined by anything but an estimate of “ of the candidate’s superior fitness to discharge the “ duties of the particular office.” I think that will in a measure account for what I have found to be the inefficient teaching of the ])rofessoriate here. ‘1245. {Mr. Bernard.) You are of opinion that that is now the case ? — I think it is as strongly the ease as it ever was, and even worse. 4246. To whom is that letter addressed ? — To Lord John Russell. 1247. Taking into account the great changes that liave been made in the mode of appointment to pro- fessorships since Mr. Row wrote that sentence, you are still of opinion that the elections to professorships in the university are determined mainly by other considerations than that of the fitness of the professor for the office r — Yes, I think this is as perfectly true now as it was then. I have watched it on many occasions. The result of this frequently is that the professors have their subjects to get up after they are appointed. It is not at all an uncommon thing in (ixford for a professor to have to learn his trade after he has got his appointment. 4248. { Cfiairnian.) One remenff)ers examples of very eminent men of whom that may have been true ? — They may become eminent afterwards, but that does not prevent their teaching being inefficient during the time they are themselves learning. 4249. {^[r. Bernard.) Should you applj^ this ob- servation to the Professors of Natural Peience ? — The Professors' of Natural Science are at the museum, and I cannot speak about them, because the colleges do not compete with them. I am endeavouring to com- pare the professoriate when it comes into competition with the collesre. 4250. Are you of opinion that the Professors of Natural Science are mainly appointed on theological f)22.'3, or political giounds ? — I do not know anything about that branch of a])pointments. 4251. Are you speaking then not of tlie professor- ships in general, but oidy of particular classes of pro- fessorships? — I am speaking of the professors in the university u ho can be compared with the teachers in a college. 1 started by endeavouring to establish a comparison between the men who teach in the colleges and the j)rofessors. The colleges do not teach the subjects which are taught in the museum. 4252. ( Chairman.) With respect to the class of university jrrofessors who teach the subjects which are, taught in the colleges, your opinion coincides with that which you have read to us '? — My o[)inion is that the college tuition is infinitely superior to the pro- fessorial tuition. 4253. And that the [jrofessors are generally, or often, not well chosen by those who have the appointment ? — Certainly. My remark certainly apirlies to the Classical School, the History School, and the I.,aw School, 'riien there are other defects with respect to the jnofes- soriate in Oxford. For instance, they lecture so little. At the present time in my own department we have I thiid< five or six (I forget how many, but a con- siderable number) readers and professors ; there are only two of them lecturing, and it is now the end of the third week in term. One of them lectures at an inconvenient time, just a little before dinner time; the other in all probability will have to suspend his lectures because he is an examiner ; and that is all that the university will get out of those hu ge endowments for the wh.,>le of the term. I have cliai ge of a great nunffjcr of young men, and just before coming here f had a class of 30 men, most or more than half of whom I have to look after entirely, and I find that I have often the greatest difficulty in the world in get- ting them through their work in the timev I tried to utilise the professors’ lectures. 1 try to see whether I cannot by sending the men to the professors’ lec- tures, save the time and trouble of having to go over some parts of the subject, and I cannot do it. 'I'he jrrofessors’ lectures are so few and so scrapjry and they cover such a little ground that I lind it almost imjrossible to utilise them. 4254. In the paper which certain combineil colleges with which you are in connexion have issued for the Michaelmas term, 1 see that there is only one pro- i'essorial lecture in law mentioned, that being Sir William Anson’s Lecture in Constitutional Law?— Yes, that is the one that I referred to. In a little time the schools will begin, and then probably that lecture v\ ill be suspended. 4255. {Mr. Bernard.) Would you say that the en- dowments of the law professorships are large ? — I think they are a great deal more than the work is worth, at the market value. The work is done worse than it is in college, and it costs about twenty times more, and that is a state of things that I do not want to see extended. 4256. With respect to the Professor of Interna- tional Law, I think he is not lecturing this term ? — No. 4257. That is to say, he lectures in the other terms of the year ? — Ib' lectures in the other terms of the year. 4258. But he gives informal instruction this term, does he not ? — Yes; but I do not thiid< mueb of that informal instruction. 4259 ( Chairman.) When does the Regius Profes- sor lecture ? — The Regius Professor lectures oeca^^ion- ally at half-past four o’clock in the afternoon. 4260. {Prof. Smith.) A'ou have yourself in past time given a good deal of informal instruction, have you not? — How do you mean informal ? 4261. Did you not at one time take private pupils ? — Yes; I take ;i few private ])upils no’,v, but from those colleges only where there is no provision or next to no provision made for the nuMi. 4262. That is informal instruction, is it not? — Yes. 4263. Then you do attach value to informal in- struction — I think the informal instruction, if you have enough of it, is the best. When I said that 1 L I OXFORD. II. A. Pottinyer, Esq., M.A. 2 Nov. 1877. 26 o UNIVEKSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. H. A. Pottinger, Esq., M.A. 2 No7. 1877. dici not tliiiik muclt of the infornuil instruction, I merely meant to say that the men did not go ; there is merely a notice put out, and I do not think that as a rule the men avail themselves of the instruction. To do that, as it is always in the middle of tl.e morning, they would in all probability have to give up attending some regular course of lectures. 4^()4'. {Mr. Bernard.) The lectures that you re- lerred to just now as being given at half-past 4 o’clock are not perhaps given at the time that you and 1 should choose if we were teachers resident in the university ; but do you know whether as a matter of fact that time is found very inconvenient ? — I know that men do not like it, the men who do like it are the men who are just going into the schools. 4265. Do they not go in considerable numbers to those lectures ? — Some time ago there were a good number. 4 have no report of the numbers at all this term, in fact I do not know whether it has begun yet. I think it must have begun, but I am not quite sure. 1 do not know anyone who is going to the lectures this term, but 1 do send my men to Professor’s Bryce’s lectures when the subjects fit in — I think that is always advisable. 4266. ( Chairman.) Can you tell us why these lectures are not mentioned in this paper ? — Because the notice iiad not been given out. There is another point that 1 want to draw attention to, and that is, that non-resident professors do not give us notice in time, and when the work for the term is settled it is very often difficult to dovetail things in. 4267. Is it necessary that notice should he given at or before the end of the previous term ? — No ; Sir Henry Maine does not, and I’rofessor Bryce does not give notice. 4268. 1 mean is it necessary for the purpose of such a combined scheme as this? — Yes; we have always to send in to IMr. Papillon the list of thelectures that we intend to give. I would call attention to what I consider the advantages of the collegiate system. I may say that 1 consider that the college teachers and tutors as a general ndc know the subject better than the professors. 'I’liey work better and they work a great deal more than the jnofessois do. A college lecturer will give six or eight times as many lectures in a tf.Tin as a ])rofessor does, and he will not receive one third or one fourth of the remuneration, so that tlici-e is more work, and as I consider better work, and less money paid. Then the college instruc- tors are mon; with the men and take more interest in them, and it is a very important element in education that there should he intercourse between the teachers and (he taught. It is absolutely necessary, at all events, in those subjects which I have h.ad to deal with, tliat there should he more fretpient interviews between the teacher and the taught, than there can be in the case of a professor who ilrops down from London twice a week for five or six weeks in a term, and then Hies away again. I am opposed in another [>oint of view' to an increase of the professoriate here. I think Oxford can never become a Law School and can never become a Medical School. It is {)erfectly absurd for us to suppose that in the 18 months at the outside that we have for training these young men we can make accomplished lawyers of them, even though we have all the different branches of English law and of all other sorts of law represented here. They w'ould have nobody to teach unless you compelled all the young men to go to them, and then they could not get up the subjects in the time. With regard to the Medical School, again, there is no possibility of getting up a great Medical School ; the appliances are want- ing; and the same remark wilt apply w'ith regard to the time; the time that the young men have is not sufficient Hrr the pur|)ose. The professors who work at the museum seem to me to want a raise up a hystem of professors. ] think their first application was for about 60 or 70 chairs, hut it was reduced to an irreducible minimum of 10 in the last document. On the last page of the last paper that came out they say that there are 19 chairs that they think arc neces- sary for the complete working of the museum. 4269. {Prof. Smith.) I think you w'ill find that those w'ere the recommendations of the Duke of Devonshire’s Commission ?— Yet, that is the one. I saw it in the “Gazette” and nut in the volume. 4270. 'Lhat does not come fiom the museum pro- fessors ?— 1 saw it in our “ Gazette,” and I took that as coming from the museum. But ;it all events an enormous number of professors seem to be w-anted there. I think with regard to the teachers of the museum that their pow'ers of management must be very inferior to their learning if they cannot manage W'ith a much smaller number, even with the number that they have now, to occupy usefully the smalt number of these young men that they have for 18 months. If the argument be that w'c must have them, not for these young men but for other purposes, then I have nothing to say. If the professorships are to be founded for other purposes than for those of educa- tion, that gets beyond my sphere. I think it is not advisable ; but certainly with regard to the small number of months that our own undergraduates will be under (heir care, I think it is very curious if they could not take up subjects wfiich could be taught by the tour or five or six that they have there already. 4271. {Mr. Bernard.) Would your remarks apply equally to the scheme put out by the Hebdomadal Council ? — The Hebdomadal Council reduces the number under the difi'erent heads, but I should object to any increase. My notion of the matter is that the best thing that can be done is to put on a little pres- sure, and to give power to colleges to develop their teaching staff. It will he more elastic than it would he in the case of the university. If in the university you found a professorship, the probability is that you found a sinecure (or ever. If a college is authorised or even com[)elk‘d to devote a certain portion of its funds to the teaching of other subjects than classics, with a liberty of clioosing that other subject, and veering from one to another as circumstances may require, you have there an elasticit}' that you cannot get in the university, and I think that the work would be very much better done. Of course the Boards of Studies, like all hoards, vote in a body for unlimited creations of appointments. Both the classical boards say that tlicy want readerships and professorships, and that the readerships are to be held with college tutorships and college lectureships. They seem to me to take just the wrong way of dealing with the matter. The proper thing will be to make these appointments college reatlerships and not university readerships. Make the colleges establish readerships, liut lio not attach them to tin; utii versify, and encourage as much as possible the intercollegiate system of education. That I think might he pushed further than it is now' ; but it is a mistake altogether to my mind to make those readerships university readerships. The appointments would probably he w'orse filled up, and they would probably be made perpetual and the work w'ould he more likely to be neglected. I must admit that there is one thing that will require a little pressure. Some of the colleges do not act fairly in the matter of tuition. The classical tutors have the manipulation of the funds, and they divide them nearly all, and the special subjects are worked as cheaply as possible. I think that every college ought to be compelled to make a [)rovision for those subjects. I had in a lecture this 11 irning seven or eight men from colleges whieh are not in our associated scheme, w'ho in their own college are paying seven guineas a term for tuition, and the college only supplies them w'ith one course of lectures. 4272. {Prof. Smith.) For which it pays one guinea a term ? — I do not quite know'. They might send them to me for that ; I admit all to my lectures far a guinea a term. Those are things which I think ought to be looked after. Every college ought to be under the obligation of devoting some part either of its corporate funds or of its tutorial funds UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 2G7 to other ohjocts than classics. Several of the colleges do very hadly in that respect. 4^73. {Mr. Bernard.) Such a ]>rovision you think should be introdiuted into the college statutes? — "I'hey want well looking after upon that point. 4Si74. (Prof. Smith.) Accepting the statement that you have made, do you think that any provision in a college statute could adequately meet the evil ?— I think it might he met in this way, which would answer two purposes : that every college should devote a certain sum of money, which would be fixed by the Commissioners, perhaps, towards the partial (but not jiermanent) endowment of collegiate or intercollegiate readerships. If they were permanent they would be jobbed directly and turned into sinecures. 4275. Does not the state of things which you have described point to the fact that the colleges are in many cases animated by a narrow spirit in the matter of education, and that as an inference you could not safely trust entirely to their direction the distribution and control of the funds applicable to edtication ? — T do not think it is a narrow view of education, I think it is the auri sacra fames. 4276. That makes the matter worse, does it not ? — I think it does, but that is what I think it is. But I would say a word in extenuation. Formerly the classical tutors used to divide the whole of the funds, or very nearly the whole of the funds, in a college. The numbers in many of the colleges have not in- creased, and the tuition fund has not increased, but the men do not all of them go now to the classical lectures. To pay adequately the teachers of the other subjects out of the tutorial fund would be to diminish the ordinary revenue of the classical tutors. It is perhaps rather unwillingness to part with money than readiness to grasp it. 4277. Does it not strike you that all that you are saying shows that to trust to the colleges, as a body, the whole control over education in Oxford, would be a very dangerous course ? — I do not know what alternative you have. We must trust somebody, and I think that it will be better to trust the colleges than to trust the professoriate. That is the conclusion that I arrive at. You must deal with human nature as it is, but I think the best thing is to choose the best side of it. I think the moral atmosphere of Oxford is very bad. That is a conclusion which I have come to for a long time. . 4278. You mean in these respects? — Y’’es. 4279. {CJiairman.) Will you define the sense in which you use the word “ moral ” ? — I mean the state of public opinion in Oxford. I do not mean “ moral ’’ in the sense that it is r ery often used by the clergy. Then I think the university as an examining body is in great want of funds. To my mind the principal business of the university is examination, and the less it does in the way of teaching the better. I agree with Professor Chandler upon that subject. He says that the chief business of an university is not to teach, but to determine what every educated man worthy of his degree ought to know, and to examine all candi- dates and see that they really do possess this know- ledge. 4280. {Mr. Bernard.) Would it not be better then to entrust tlie whole teaching of Oxford to the ]>ro- fessoriate if it is desirable that Oxford should teacli as little as possible, and if you are right about the professoriate ? — I agree with Professor Chandler that the university itself ought to teach as little as possible, and that the teaching ought to be left to the colleges or to the men themselves to provide where they can. I think that to leave it to the colleges or to ])ublic competition would certainly be tire best. 4281. {Chairman.) Do you think it would be a good thing if the students were not required to reside at the university at all, but were allowed merely to come up for examination ? — I do not think so, because I consider that the best part of an university eduction is not that which a young man gets from his tutors or from his professors, but the training which they get from each other. 1 look upon that as the most valuable part of an university career, and I think that in order to acquire that it would be even worth while to gm through a number of bad lectures. I estimate that as the principal part of an university career, and I an. strongly opposed to shortening it. 4282. You think it would be a good thing to excuse the undergraduates from attending any lectures at all, and to leave them to find their own way to the exami- nations with such preparation as they could provide for themselves ? — I should object to putting much pressure upon them ; I do not think that it is required, if the university grants its degree only on condition of passing certain examinations. The young men as a general rule look after teachers, and if their own teachers are not efficient they will go to somebody else. 4283. {Prof. Smith.) You have had some expe- rience, have you not, of the teaching of pass-men ? — Very little. I used to teach them occasionally in our own college, but I never found that they were negli- gent as a body. A compulsory lecture they do not like, but that is a little bit of human nature. If they are compelled to go to a lecture they will shirk it, but if they have to get up their work they will go and pay somebody, and then they will attend as regularly as possible, although perhaps the person whom they pay does not lecture better than the person whom they desert. But there is a good deal of that weakness that they do not value what costs nothing, they do not see the cost of it though it comes into their battels, but they must pay it whether they will or not, whereas what they do from their own choice pa}' for, that they try to have the benefit of. I find that the university has not funds for paying its examiners ; it wants a fund for that pm pose. There are many of the schools where it would be impossible by means of fees to provide sufficient for the purpose. What is the way in which our examinations are managed now ? The pay of the examiners is miserably small, but I must say that I think it is higher than it ought to be under the circumstances. The University of Oxford does not imitate other public institutions. We have an inveterate vice in our examinations, and that is that the tutors are allowed to examine their own men. That vitiates the whole of our examinations. I have now for 30 years watched the effect of that, and the result is that it introduces the greatest uncertaintv in the class lists. 4284. Have you been a public examiner yourself? —I have not, and I should certainly not take the office in any school. I have an objection to examina- tions. 1 have not often had examinations offered to me, but I have always refused them when they have been offered. The point to remedy which I think we shall require some funds is this ; the examiners are appointed principally by the proctors, arid of course by the Vice-Chancellor also. The proctors are always the fellows of colleges, and they pass those examinerships about from one to another in this way, and they go on examining their men. There is a pndor about the circumstance in the university statute ; it appears that they are a little conscious that it is not (]uite right that the examinations should be managed in this way, and there are two clauses in our statutes to provide against the grossest breach of fairness in the matter. One of them has been on the statute book a long time, and it had some meaning when it was juit on. Formerly the examination used to be divided into two parts which were almost equally imporlant, the paper work and the viva voce work. Now the paper work is the sole matter of importance, and the viva voce goes for nothing as a rule. Our old statute provides that no member of a college shall examine viva voce any of his own men. That of course now amounts to nothing at all. A man’s college tutor may set the papers which his pupils in competition with others will have to answer, and I know that that acts very unfairly. There have been instances in the schools where an examiner has set questions which have only been answered by his own pupils, and ol' which nobody else kneVV' the LI 2 OXFORD. H A. ottinycy. Esq., M.A. 2 Nov. 1877. 268 UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. H. A. Potliiiger, Esq., M.A. 2 Nov. 1877. answers. I have sent many men Into the scliools, and I reckon as a general rule, except in the case of he very best men, who are snre to get up to tlie top, and of the very worst men, who are snre not to get into tlie list at all, that it makes the difference of .i class to a man whether he has attended the lectures of the examiner or not. That 1 tliink is a crying- evil and it ought undoubtedly to be corrected. In the otlier statute to which I lefer, in the year 1858 an alteration was made in consequence of a case which was rather an awkward one. Tlie statute was passed to provide that in the case of an equality of votes for deciding upon a class, a man s own tutor should not have a casting vote. That remains on our statute book now. The tutor may vote upon the subject and he may set the jiapers, hut he is not to have a casting vote. ■TiSf). In your iudgment the setting of the papers is a more important matter than the voting ?• — Cer- tainly. If yon would allow me to teach the men and then to set the jiapers, 1 would leave yon to place them in order. 1 think that would be a good divi- sion of the labour. Of course in the case of a man who lectures and then afterwards has to set a paper upon the subject of his lectures, it would be unfair to his pupils if he avoided the subject of his lecture, and unfair to the others if he did not. That is the point that 1 wanted to refer to with regard to the moral atmosphere of Oxford. I have talked to many men upon this subject. It is a convenient system ; it is cheaper, and it brings from 100/. to 50/., according to the school, into the pockets of the examiner, who loses nothing besides, because he can either put off his lectures, or jierhaps get some friend to continue them. I have known some instances in which the examiner when he goes into the schools has suspended his lec- tures; he loses no time by it; begets the additional sum of money, and then he has the advantage that his pupils will have his questions to answer. 1 do not like to aj)pear singular in a matter of this kind; although 1 have lived all my life in Oxford I have never been able to breathe that atmosphere, but I will give you the opinion of a gentleman who comes from abroad which will j>erhaps have nfore weight, and that is the opinion of Professor Max Muller. He has spoken upoji this very subject. I will leave out the reference which he makes to his particular school, so as to give it as my opinion in a general form. It is at })age 58. “ It is impossible to teach at Oxford “ more than what is required in the examinations, and ‘‘ the amount there required can easily be supplied by “ the tutors of any college, as the examiners are almost “ always chosen from their numher. The undergra- “ dilates naturally attend the lectures in which they “ acquire exactly that amount of knowledge which is “ required in the examinations, and exactly in the form “ in which it is likely to be required.” That is the opinion of a distinguished foreigner who was not brought up here, and I adopt that view entirely. It is excessively unfair to all tliose who have not attended the lectures. I make a point on behalf of my pupils of always sending them to the lectures of the examiner. If there is an examiner lecturing, even if it is a person to whose lectures I should never think of sending them otherwise, I say, “ Go to his lectures, because “ he will set the papers ;” and of course I should he wrong if I did otherwise. I look upon my pupils in the light of my clients, and I must give them the best advice I can for the schools. With regard to this moral atmosjiherc of Oxford, I may say that we, when we get out of Oxford, have as keen a moral sense as anybody in the w-orld. We have two boards ; we have the united board with Cambridge, and we have the board for the examination of the young people will) do not belong to the university. I am sure there is not a member of either of those two boards who would not be shocked if the master of any of the schools whose hoys had to be examined reipiested to be put upon the list of examiners, and yet we get accustomed to it in Oxford. The London University appoints examiners, who have nothing to do with its teaching, and I think even if it cost ns a little money we should be very ivise to adopt the same ])lan. 'I'o have the men examined in that way by their own tutors is I think the most objectionable thing that could possibly be imagined. 1 liave s[)oken to several men who defend the system, but all 1 can say is that the arguments that they use are to my mind exactly as good as the arguments that were used in favour of the slave trade. I am quite sure that when the system is abolished there will be nobody that will own that he ever defended it. 428(3. {^Chairman.') How would you supply the examiners if you excluded all the tutors of colleges; would you take them from the professors? — - I think there are plenty of people who have left off teaching to be found amongst the members of this university, or among members of the University of Cambridge. The London University finds no difficulty in getting examiners — they advertise for examiners. It is not such a difficult thing to examine as it is to be examined — it is very much easier work. 4287. Is it not of some importance that the ex- aminers should examine in a way which has some relation to the instruction which is given in the university? — 1 think it is a mistake to have the matter too strictly regnlateil. If the university settles the books and the subjects, I think that it ought to be left to the discretion of the examiners how they will put the questions. The great evil is that at the present time the men who succeed best in the ex- aminations are the men who have got all the nice little new catches and dodges from their tutors. A tutor will get hold of a German book and find some late dream of a German jirofessor which is the newest thing out ; and that will be the proper theory until that tlream is disjielled by the dream of somehody else. I think that it would he very advisable to get rid of that. 4288. Then your answer to my question is in sub- stance that the university should settle the subjects in which the students are to be examined ? — I certainly think that the university should settle the subjects, and not alter them too often. 4289. {Prof. Smith.) Why should they not alter them from time to time ?— If by from time to time you mean ut long intervals I should have no objection, but frequent changes I think are very bad. 4290. Is there not a great danger of the courses of instruction stagnating if there is no change introduced into them from time to time ? — 1 should introduce changes from time to time but I think that several years ought to elapse before any change is made. I think that a man ought to be able to see before him when he comes nj) to the university what he will have to do. I do not think that a change ought to be made so as to apply in a less time than that, and that the change ought not to apply to men who have been already reading. I had a strong controversy with the Board of .Studies ujion that subject a little time ago. 4291. {BIr. Bernard.) Do you mean from the time that a man comes to the university, or from the time at which he may be reasonably supposed to commence the course of study which terminates in the examina- tion? — The point upon which lam in doubt (and I have placed the alternative before the Vice-Chancellor in a letter which I wrote to him on the subject), is whether a man should be able to see his course before him from matriculation, or from the time that he passes his moderations. I think it is a matter about which something may be said on both sides, but I should certainly argue that a man ought by the time he passes moderations to see his way before him, and not to have to change his work as a number of men had to do a little time ago, and in consequence to leave the class-school and go off into the pass-school. 4292. {Chairman.) Is there anything further that you wish to add ? — I think I have nothing more to say except, perhaps, one word about research. I am very strongly against endowing research. Anything more absurd than that, especially in Oxford, I cannot UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 209 imagine. I can very well understand tliat there are people who would like to have reseach enddwed. A man may not he able to teach Chinese or (ireek, law or medicine, but he may think that his general abilities are such that if he could have secured to him 800/. a year, he probably would he able to find something out, and still more probably if he could have 600/. a year. But I think what the man would find out under those circumstances would he that if he could increase his in- come still more by doing some work of some kind oi other that would bring in money, it would he worth his while to devote all his time to that increase of his income. I do not think that the endowing of research would have any other effect than simply that of adding to the income of the people who wore supposed to he endowed. But we have had plenty of opportunities of judging of it dn Oxford ; it is not a new thing here. The greater nund)er of the fellowships here in Oxford are endowments which would have been a sufficient in- ducement to people to research if they had liked. Austin said that if the}' Avould secure him 200/. a year for two years, he would go up into a garret and codify the criminal law. There are plenty of men in the university who have fellowships of 200/. a year, and a great many who have fellowships of 300/. a year, and have nothing to do for them ; and I shouhl like to know how many of them research. They look out for something else. I know some of them who are in commercial pursuits ; others of them take curacies or small livings ; some of them go into schools and teach the boys to parse Euripides ; and they take up all sorts of pursuits, but not one that I ever heard of goes in for research. Then the heads of houses have nothing to do. How many of them ever trouble their heads about research ? They nught very easily do it if they were so inclined. But not only is Oxford not a place for that, but it is just the very place where research gets persecuted. We have had researchers in Oxford ; Oxford has produced a good number of men wlio have been great researchers. I would mention particularly Locke ; through his re- searches he Avas deprived of his studentship. Then Prynne perhaps is the greatest of all our (Oxford men in the Avay of research ; he is the man to whom Ave owe pretty nearly all our knowledge of earlier con- stitutional history. What did he get ? His ears Avere cut off, and he was deprived of his Bachelor of Arts Degree by our Chancellor, the Archbishop of Can- terbury. 4293. {Prof. Smith.) Are not those instances rather old? — You shall have the ueAv ones as we come down. At about the same time as Locke tf.ere Avere three very distinguished men in Oxford, all of whom were great researchers, namely Wood, Ayliffe, and Hearne. They Avere all persecuted here ; and the greatest thinkers that Ave have had in Oxford, Hobbes and Bentham, oAved nothing to the endoAvment of research at all. Now' I Avill give you the modern cases to shoAv Avhat chance there is w ith regard to getting research in Oxford. If there are places to be filled up by researchers there must be somebody to appoint them, and I imagine that the appointments Avould be made generally speaking by the majority. We cannot suppose that these felloAvships, or Avhatever they might be, Avhich should he given for the endowment of re- search Avould be filled by the minority ; they Avould be filled by those Avho Avould govern public opinion in the university. In the year 1873, two little circum- stances took place in Oxford to which I would direct attention. There are tAvo men in England, I think, at the present time that every one would fix upon as men who are great in researcli, Darwin and 'ryndall. I think no one could name half a dozen men in England as great researchers Avithout hitting upon those two names. I Avill just refer to the Avay in Avhich those two men have been treated in Oxford. One of our professors suggest that a professorship should be started in Oxford for the express pur|)Ose of talking down Darwinism. With regard to Tyndall, a pro- fessor of the university. Canon of Christ Church, a man of great authority belongiuff to the predominant party in Oxford, protested in the }«,.•• 1873, not against endowing Mr. Tyndall, because that Avas not suggested, but against conferring upon him the honour of a barren degree! I do not think that there Avould beany chance of research getting on Avhen we are under the control of thinkers like these. If by research is meant the unsAverving endeavour to arrive at the truth wherever it may be fo’.ind, then I say there is no room for research at Oxford. If by research you mean the endeavour to find arguments, or apparent arguments, in defence of a foregone conclusion, then I say that research is already too much endoAved here. 4294. With reference to what you said about fellowshi])S, you would admit, Avould you not, that for a long time the business of research has not been supposed to be any part of the duty of a person Avho is elected to a fellowship ? — It has not. 4295. The persons against Avhom you have been arguing contend that the important thing is to make the business of research a part of the duty of the man Avhom you elect ; do you think that Avould make any difi'erence ?— I do not. You would, I think, create just the same difficulty as arose in the middle ages Avith regard to praying for souls. People used to give lands for the purpose of having their souls and the souls of their ancestors prayed for, but Avhether the clei'gy did it or not you could never tell. You could never come down on a man for not research- ing ; he could ahvays say, like the priest in the middle ages, that he Avas researching Avhen he Avas out for his w'alks, or anywhere else. I do not think you could catch him in that. 4296. ( Earl of Rcdesdalv.) Should you see any objection, Avhen there Avas some matter in Avhich it Avas thought desirable that research should be made, in order to obtain further information, to the university offering a large prize, say 1,000/., or something of that sort, giving three or five years for the research to be made, and saying that if any treatise upon the subject Avas delivered in Avhich contained valuable information upon the subject for Avhich the prize Avas oftered, then it should be given either to the single article that Avas put in, or to the best that might be put in from amongst several put in by different people ? — I think it would be highly desirable. I w'ould rather have anything than a permanent endoAvment. If the university could find some person who Avas likely to make any discoveries, and Avho Avas pi’evented from doing so by the Avant of money, the university might advance it ; but I Avoukl rather do anything than make an institution of it. Temporary things of that kind I should certainly approve of, but I Avould not under any circumstances make it a permanency. That Avould be sure to be abused, and I think that the rtigular endowment of research and the regular endowment of readerships or professorships in the university Avonld be the means of doing mischief with the money that may he found available after settling the college estates. The witness withdreAv. OXFORD. II. A. Pottinger, Esq., M.A. 2 Nov. 1877. Georoe Kolleston, Estp, D.M. (Linacre Professor of Physiology), examined. 4297. {Chairman.) Perhaps you Avill first givens your views as to the requirements of the biological department? — I Avill begin, if you Avill alloAv me, by saying Avhat are the objects that I aim at in the Avork- ing of the department. The first is the fitting of students for the Natural Science School, it being the rule of the university that through the intermediation of the Natural Science School after Moderations a person may become a Bachelor of Arts. 'I'iiat is the first object, and it is the first in every Avay. 'I'he out- lay of our money has in great part been subordinate to tlie requirements of the statute for the Natural Science School. We Avork at that during the Avhole of the terms as Avell as in the vacations. The outlay of LI 3 G. Polleston. Esq., D.M. 270 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. G, Bollesloii, Esq., D.M. 2 Nov. 1877. mo: cy ami of' labour is in a great measure, though not ent irely, determined hy the requirements of tlie Natural Science School ; that is to say, not for any special professional or medical education. Tn the second jdace I have this object. 1 try to fit my senior students to enter with advantage upon purely medical or profes- sional subjects. To put it quite jilainly, such a subject as anthropotomy, dissection of the human subject, is a little too detailed to he used in general education, but T contrive always to get what students 1 can to stay after their Bachelor of Arts degree has been taken, that Bachelor of Arts degree having been obtained by means of science, and to work after that examination is passed so as to fit themselves for a professional degree by means of human anatomy. That is my second great object. The third is this: some students do not wisli to enter the medical profession. Tlie majority of the men I think do become doctors ultimateljy and some athers take appointments in schools ; for example one of my former pupils is in the Charter House as a science master, another in a school at Bedford, and others in other schools elsewhere. Those are merely examples. Some of these gentlemen stay and work in the anatomical department, say for a term or two, after taking their degrees. Then I have before me two other subjects which are more or less distinct from the three which I have already specified. 'I'he first of them is this : I wish to give the university, which is an university with literary and historical and ethnological interests, the material illustrations and the material basis for such studies. For example, I am constantly referred to hy classical jieople in this place for the interpretation of some jiassage which refers to either anatomy' or phy'siology or natural histoiy, and 1 cominunicab' to them what I know of the thii'g in order to enable them to interpret the words. Then again, in these days ethnological in- quiries are greatly hound up with such matters as these, viz., ancient implements, and mamifacttires, and the corporeal remains of man, as evidence wdiether he belongs to a Mongolian stock or to an Indo-European stock, and so on. Of course truth is one, and those various lines of investigation, if they are honestly and thoroughly followed out, must converge to one con- clusion and the true one only. Then there is a. fifth object (and I must say about it that during the last year or two J have been less successful for various I'casons than formerly) and that is in the producing of original memoirs or original work, which gives acces- sion to knowledge of various kinds. Many' memoirs have been written by my pupils, and some hy myself, which may' he supjrosed to be new, or, as the phrase goes, to have given accession to knowledge. During the last year or two, with the exception of what I have written myself, there has been less done in that way partly on account of the increase of the number of students and the requirement of apj)aratus for teaching. Those are the things that I aim at. 4298. What are the additions to the existing estab- lishments which are wanted for the perfect attainment of those aims ? — The first of those lies in the way' of space. We are very much crowded up with s[)ecimens, and we want additional room. There are about 30 students scattered about, and working with the amount of apparatus that is ref[uired, they' occupy a very considerable (piantity of room. The additional room that! want, I think, should relieve the Court as it is called and certain of the work-rooms of those series which illustrate what 1 have just spoken of, namely, the ethnological and anthropological apparatus. The s])acc vacated hy those would give more room for the comparative anatomy and the comparative j)hysiology series, hut I think that the development of anthropology and ethnology is one of the great objects to he aimed at. I have a rough plan drawn up by Mr. Deane which, if you will allow me, I will put in. It is merely a rough plan {])rG(/Hcinff apian). An open tjuadrangle like that at Trinity College would be added on to that piece which is now a blind wall. The square is the court in which lire collections are now displayed. I shotild like to speak of the importance of anthropology in a place which has political, social, and moral studies devoloped in it. You can see its importance from a literary point of view if you look at Tylor’s works on Primitive Culture, which have been translated into Russian and other languages, Mr. John Evans’ or Sir ,1. Lubbock’s works ; and I think I may' rank with them the writings of the Germans and the French in their periodicals. There is the Archiv fiir Anthropologic, a very large book indeed, dealing with philology, with anatomy, with history, and with social (luestions also. I need not name the works of Sir Henry Maine and McLennan. All those ques- tions come into this subject, and they are treated of in such works as those that I have just mentioned. Or y'ou can look at it from another point of view by looking at other museums, that for instance in the Jardin des Plantes in Paris, which is one of the largest in the tvorld ; and in which the continuity of natural history with the natural history of man is very striking, for in it you walk without any apparent break whatever, from a purely natural history series into a purely anthroj)ological one, showing in that way' how the one is dependent upon the other. In Paris this subject has attained a great develo])ment. During the last generation France has contributed less to science than it did in the generation before ours ; but in this particular development of the study of man it has, I think, got a considerable start over any other country. There is another very' large museum of anthropology in Paris near the Ecole de Medecine. Archa'ology' again and anthropology are illustrated hy the museum which the late Emperor Napoleon III. made at Saint Germain, in illustration of Celtic, Roman, and pre-historic times. In London the museum of the College of Surgeons has its series too. The Christy Collection, which is being removed to the British Museum from Victoria Street, is another instance. But if you go into a great number of provincial towns now they contrast to consider- able advantage with us here in the state of develoj)ment, which series illustrating archaiology have reached ; Leicester for instance has a very good collection, and Sheffield is develojting one. That shows the great hold which the subject has upon thought. The second point is the inq)ortance of developing it in coffnexion with the Natural History Museum. I have some further requirements in space. The same building that would give room to the anthropological series above would provide room below for these other requirements. First, I want a room into which any person who is competent to conduct original research should be able to go. For example, one of my former pupils, Mr. H. N. Moseley, was the naturalist on the “ Challenger ” ; he brings collections home, and I have not at present a room into which I could put them without displacing students who are working for their degrees. That of course would be cruelty on the principle which Sir Philip Sidney laid down, that “his want is less” than that of men over whom examination is hanging. If those additions were made they would furnish, first, a laboratory for independent workers, secondly, a room for examinations (j)recisely the reverse line of activity), and then I want a room for aejuaria, which, as you see by the newspapers, are greatly developing, at Naples for instance, at T'orquay, and at Sunderland, on our own coast a great amount of research is carried on into the marine fauna of the country. 4299. Would that be practicable here so far from the sea ? — Yes. from the Westminster Aquarium you can get barrels of sea-water sent down at any time you like. We have, at considerable geometrical disadvan- tage, some tnarine Aquaria fresh and working all the year round, and with a larger mass of water it is jyo tanto easier to keep it in good order. For the putting up of large skeletons we also need more room. If we have a large animal like the elephant we have to devote one of the other rooms wholly to it. 4300. {Prof. Smith.) Is not the Court the proper place for large skeletons ? — But you could not put them together in the Court. I refer to the articulating of them. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION'; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 27i 4301 . ( Chairman.) I see that you want a room for mieroseopy ? — We want a larger room for that. We are obliged to have several classes of students, because none of those rooms are sufficiently large for it. They are constructed with windows at one end, and unless you are (piite under the window you have a much narrower segment of the sky to get illumination from. This might all be provided in that plan for these two wings. 4302. (Prof. Smith.) You propose to take for the purpose of your department one of those wings? — Yes, those wings are not very long, and we should want both those wings I think. 4303. (Sir M. W. Hidley.) Have you any sort of idea about the cost ? — The cost as cubed up by Mr. Deane comes to 9,600/., but that is of course irre- spective of fittings. 4304. (Chairman.) Does that provide for Professor Clifton’s -wants and for any of the wants of the other departments ? — No, but it is not really a very large matter. As calculated for by Mr. Deane it was said that it would cost 10,000/. in even numbers. 4305. (Prof. Smith.) It would provide, would it not, for the extension of your own department and for the extension of the geological department ? — According to your suggestion it would meet that other demand, but the space I have had sketched would not be too large for the purposes I have mentioned. 4306. ( Chairman.) Then it cannot be regarded as a scheme which has been considered with reference to the aggregate wants of all the departments which are represented in the museum ? — When the Council drew up its University lleciuirements Report Pro- fes.«or Clifton sent in his, and the chemistry depart- ment sent in theirs, and each was said to want about 10,000/., the 10,000/. that the biological department wanted being represented by that, the chemical department by what is now being built, and Professor Clifton’s by what I presume he will have brought before you. 4307. But the local arrangements have not been considered with reference to those other departments ? — Not until this moment with reference to the geo- logical department, but it would not interfere with the ground that would have to be taken either by physic or by chemistry. The chemistry department would extend itself, as it is extending itself, to the south-east, and the department of physics proper would extend in a northward direction, so that they would not come upon the same site. 4308. All this is upon the hy[)othesis of anatomy remaining under your charge ? — It is upon the hypo- thesis of the whole of it remaining under my charge, I think with some addition to my staff of demonstra- tors ; that is to say, I think if I had one efficient demonstrator and one efficient servant in addition to what I have now I could manage the whole of that department. 4309. (Prof. Smith.) Do you mean the whole of biology excluding botany ?— No, I was going to say e.xcluding also physiology, which I think should be distinctly removed from the department of anatomy ; which should correspond to the morphological side of biology as regards animals, the whole of the animal biology exclusive of physiologj'. 4310. (Chairman.) Is it a division according to natural principles so to separate physiology from anatomy ? — I think it is, for if you see the way in which the human mind works you do not find any one single biologist who is at present eipially dis- tinguished in those two lines, they divide themselves off into morphologists such as Owen and Huxley, or on the Continent Gegenbaur ; and, on the other into physiologists such as Ludwig and ' Pfliiger. It seems that the real cardinal division of the subject is into the morphological line of work, and the physiological line of work. 4311. Anatomy being classed as morphological ? — Anatomy being classed as morphological. Morphology is the name that the Germans ordinarily use for it. 4312. Physiology i/elating to the ti.ssues of sub- stances ? — And also to functions. What is meant by jihysiology in the language of some, i.s merely experimentation upon living animals. 'I’hat is an abuse of the word : it should also include these two other subjects, namely, first, animal chemistry, and secondly histology, histology being the microscopic anatomy of structures as bound up with their func- tions. If you discuss the structure of brain cells or liver cells or the cells of glands, you connect it naturally with their functions, and therefore under the head of physiology histology is and should be included. Animal chemistry also, the chemistry of secretions and of structures and of substances should be included under the head of physiology, for it is first, intimately connected with function, and, secondly, you will find as a mere matter of observing the p.sychological history of man that the morpholo- gist does not take so kindly to animal chemistry as he does to what is ordinarily classed as anatomy, or by the newer word morphology. I put forward in 1873 in a paper a view by which physiology would be connected with medicine and made a part of it. I urged the connexion of physiology with medicine, and it was adopted in the early University Recjuirements Report, and one of those papers will be found printed in the appendix to the Report of the Duke of Devon- shire’s Commission. 4313. (Prof. Smith.) The proposal which is con- tained in the paper that was printed in the appendix to the Report of the Duke of Devonshire’s Commis- sion, would amount, would it not, to the mediatisation of the chair of medicine, and in fact would turn that chair into a chair of physiology ? — Quite so. I just ex- pected that, wishing to put it in the least obnoxious form, by saying that in Scotland the words “ Institute of Medicine ” were the same thing as “ Physiologic ” in the mouth of a German. But I should add that the Hebdomadal Council in going a second time over this suggestion did determine to keep an independent professorship of medicine, though they accepted my suggestion so far as this, that the teacher of physiology should also be charged with hygiene. With regard to one of the three great subjects that are compre- hended under the word physiology, that of experi- mentation on living animals, it entails certain moral considerations which other scientific pursuits do not. It is a constant (/ene to a person who is connected with physiology to have moral considerations brought into scientific work, but so it is, and in the nature of the case, so that we are not justified in shutting them out. Therefore I hold that experimentation upon living animals should be justified by a certain moral purpose, that is to say by reference to a certain moral end, such as that of hygiene or medicine which tends to the benefit of mankind and which gives a certain amount of justification to a certain amount of e.xperimentation. I gave some evidence on this subject before the Royal Commission on experimentation on living animals, and in that I saul I did not think that experimentation on living animals should be introduced into examina- tions ; that is to say, that it is not morally right that a person who was playing for this particular stake, a good place in a class list, should have to nlay for that stake with the risk of inflicting pain on an animal as one of the factors with which he has to reckon in his trial. See Qu. 1283, p. 62, l.c. I entirely adhere to that, and I also think further that experimen- tation 6u living animals has not any claim or any strong claim to be considered a good subject for general educational purposes at all. It is neces- sary to a certain extent for professional students of medicine, it is justifiable also in the case of certain persons who prosecute the subject for the pure ;love of it when they have no longer an examination to play for ; but I do not think that the particular tide of feelings which a man must have when he is under examination or with examination before him is (juite compatible with the particular tone of mind that the man should hold himself in when he has the; possible suffering of a fellow creature in his hands. I object to it as an educational agent, that is to say, as an L 1 4 OXFORD. G. Itollesioii, Esq., D.M. 2 Nov. 1877. 272 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. G. Itolleslon. Esq., D.M. 2 Nov. 1877. assent for general education, first upon scientitic grounds. The subject is very intricate and complex, and it requires the application of exceedingly fine means, physical, electrical, and so on ; and it pre- .supposes so much knowledge that a man who possesses all the knowledge that is actually required for it may bo I’cally set free from e.xamination altogether. So that I do not think it is in any strictness an educa- tional subject. But I think also on moral grounds (which is not a very agreeable subject) that it is not a good subject for general education. I would just fiiy that the Board of Studies of the Natural Science School about a year ago, indeed only 3(i7 days ago, on the 31st of October 1876, passed this resolution when some pressure was brought to bear upon it m the direction of making experimentation enter into the examination in the Natural Science School : “ riiat the practical examination in biology should “ he limited as heretofore to anatomy to practical “ physiological chemistry and to histology.’ 1 hat is to sa}s it was carried a year ago, and I think quite rightly, that experimentation on living animals should not enter into that examination. Then having said that, I would say that the other two large subjects that are comprehended and quite properly so under the word “ physiology,” namely, histology and animal chemistry', are fit subjects for general education, as well as neci'ssary for medical education. They are taught at present in the anatomical department, and they are taught also at iNIagdalen Clollege by Mr. T ule. Now I have to say that for the proper working of an anatomical department the person who is at the head of it should be set free from the teaching of phy'siology under either of these two heads, or still more under these three heads or divisions which I have just now mentioned. 4314. {Chairman.) You propose to separate em- bryonic and microsco[)ic zoology from physiology and histology? — Yes, those should, I think, be retained by the morphologist, because they are morphological and not experimental. 4315. (Prof. Smith.) The microscopic histology would, of course, go with the physiology, but not the microscopic zoology ? — That would he so. 4316. {Chairman.) I am not sure that I thoroughly understand what you include under microscopic zoology which does not enter into histology ? — It is really an artificial division to some extent; but I refer to such animals as the lower forms of life that can only be seen by a miscroscope. It is not so much their ultimate structure in the higher miscroscopical analysis that you look to, but you mainly investigate their general outlines in the way that you do with thenaked eye in lai'ger animals. It is a zoological examination and not a histological one. You look at them with the view of classifying them, and not with the view of spelling out the work done by their ultimate tissues. 4317. {Mr. Bernard.) It is not a microscopic exa- mination of structure ? — No. 4318. {Chairman.) Those you think are fit subjects for general education ? — Those two-thirds of j)hysio- logy I think are. I htive taught them for a long time myself, and I am lecturing uj)on them this very term ; hut they are alien from a de]nirtment of morphology or anatomy. They are alien in their very nature, and the extent of those subjects is so great now that nobody can adeiiuatcly compass them, and scarcely anybody within my knowledge attempts to do so except myself, wdio am called Professor of Anatomy aaul Physiology. I do not say that I succeed. 4319. {Prof. Smith.) Do you not think that the de- mand upon one jrrofessor is altogether too great if you give him a range of subjects so vast as that included under anatomy and ])hysiology, taking these terms in their widest sense ? — Certainly. The subject has grown very much of late years, and it is a great deal too \nuch fur one man. Nobody can cover it, and nobody does cover it, and scarcely anjdjody attempts to do so. 4320. {Chairman.) Yoni' remedy would be to have an additional jtrofessor of jthysiology ? — That is the first addition that I should make In the way of jur- sound. I believe we want what 1 have suggested in the way of space and material, first of all ; and, secondl)', I think this additional professorship should be atided on to the museum. 4321. {Prof. Smith.) But if you have an additional professor, you must have an additional place to put him in ? — Yes, and he will want somewhat different means and appliances from what we have now. 4322. But not nearly so extensive ? — No, nothinf' nearly so extensive. 4323. ( Chairman.) Those subjects which you j)ro- ])ose to retain are histology and animal chemistry ; and you woidd exclude the third ? — That 1 have left out. The other two, histology and animal chemistry, 1 think are fit subjects for general education. 4324. Those two subjects you say, might be taught in relation to the Natural Science School and the one which wdl belong to medical students only is that of e.xperimenting upon living animals.^ — Yes. 4325. I believe you desire to say something u])on the relations of Magdalen College and the lecturer there, Mr. Yule, to the leaching of physiology? — Yes. What I have to say about that is, that I send down my own pupiks to him from time to time when ho has a special course. His relations with me arc all that I can desire. I have no control over him at all, but he comes and tells me what he is going to do, and i( I happen to he lecturing on spine jiarticular department of physiology as opposed to anatomy, he doe.s not lecture upon it at the same time, and so on. d326. You do not suggest that there should he any material alteration in those arrangements?' — 1 have net asked what Mr. Yule may think about it himself, but 1 think on the whole it would he well if an addi- tional plant with a ceitain amount of additional build- ing were provided at the museum for a professor of jihysiology. Magdalen College has spent a con- sid( Table sum of money at IMagdalen ; whether Mag- dalen would be willing to go on sjiending the same amount of money and more in luoviding the university with a laboratory at the museum, I do not know; hut it would be desirable if it would. 4327. {Prof. Smith.) Would it be in ymur opinion a disadvantage if the laboratories of physiology were established not at tlu^ museum but at Magdalen College ; supposing that the College were willing to adopt the suggestion ? — It would not be a great object to my mind ; it would be something of an object, but after all the distances in Oxford are not like the distances elsewhere. If you take the distance li’om one end of Eaton Square to the other, I think it is not very different from the distance from the museum to Magdalen. 4328. If the department of physiology should be retained at the museum it would he somewhat dilKcult to find a place for it there, would it not ? — YY's, I have myself felt that 1 am unable to deal with both anatomy and jihy'siology with the fulness that I should wish, and I have j)ut forw ard what is really rcHiuired to comi)lement the morphological side. 1 do not think that })hysioIogy would require anything like the same size of plant. If you take a large skeleton or a large collection, of course it occupies a certain amount of square area which you caimot make less. 4329. {Chairman.) With regard to the general wants of the students, do you think it desirable that j)hy.'iology' should he taught in two ]ilaces, both at the museum and at Magdalen College? — I do not think it is so; but, on the other hand, I must say that in this I differ very much from many of my colleagues, and also from many others for whose opinion I have a veiy great respect. I am strongly of opinion that the harm which may accrue from centralisation is a greater one than that which may occur in the way of waste from having two “ plants” ; or, to put it plainly, think it is better to pay twice for something and get it, than to pay only once and not get it at all. 4330. Do you know whether the teaching which is given by Mr. Yule at Magdalen College, so far as it relates to experiments on living animals, is given to UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 273 tlu' particular classes to vvliotu you think it should he restricted, viz., professional students ol‘ medicine and seientilic students? — No, it is given to all students that go to him ; hut he entirely comj)lics with wliat is right and what is demanded hy the Act in the way of using ana?sthetic-‘. 4331. That w'e have ascertained from Mr. Vide him.self, and should not have doubted : hut I infer from your evidence that you think some regulation in that resjiect whicli at present does not exist would he desirable ? — 1 think that the Natural Seience School should adhere to what it laid down, that ex- perimentation on living animals should not he a subject of examination. 4332. {Prof. Stuith.) The Natural Science Board cannot control the teachers, can they ? — No. 4333. That could only he done by an university statute ? — Yes. 4334. {Chairman.) May not the teachers find it difficult even if it is possible to find any test by which to exclude students; first of all, is it possible to ascertain wdth certainty who is a [irofessed stu- dent of medicine? — Yes, I think so, because it would be known whether a gentleman was going to be- come a doctor or not; and then again, students, if they were not required to bring up that knowledge in the Natural Science School, w'oukl, in a short time, I think, leave off doing it. I should say that I have no doubt that the majority, if not all, of Mr. Y'ule’s students will be doctors in the future; hut certainly before their entering upon a professional career there intervenes the passing of this Natural Science School at present. I do not think he has students who are bachelors of arts. 4335. (il/r Bernard.) Mr. Y^ule, I su])pose, would not have acquired the knowledge that he has of the subject if his study had been confined to persons who intended to enter the medical profession ? — That is so. There has been a great movement for extending the application of experimentation on living animals to other than medical students. 4336. Mr. Yule is not himself a medical student, and he does not intend to he a physician ? — No, hut he did go through some medical education at Cam- bridge. 4337. {Chairman.) 1 suppose there are very few scientific students who are not in stalu pupillari ? — Very few. I generally have two or three myself, but not more than that. 4338. Then you want a further addition in the way of a fresh professorship in the biological department, do you not ? — That is the third requirement that I have put down, but I do not rank it as equal in urgency to the two first. It amounts to making two professors instead of one of anatomy and comparative anatomy ; one a professor of vertebrate anatomy, who should also have charge of human anatomy, and the other a professor of invertebrate anatomy. I say that it would be a desirable thing, but I do not say that it is urgent in the same sense as the others are. For example, I cannot go into other museums without feeling that we are cramped for room, and that the particular department of which I have been speaking is inadequately represented. Secondly, I cannot face another scientific man who is concerned with any of the great subjects which are comprehended under biology without feeling something like shame at being pro- fessor both of anatomy and physiology, because such a combination ought not to exist in these days. But with reference to the other matter, as men advance, this sjiecialisation into vertebrate and invertebrate anatomy does seem to declare itself except in the case of such persons as Professor Huxley and Professor Gegenbaur and Professor Owen, who cover both realms, the vertebrate and the invertebrate alike; hut ordinary people specialise themselves ort’ to one sub- ject or tile other ; and I think an addition in this direction would be the third in the order of desira- bility. 4339. {Prof. Smith.) Is not that a chair which we already have, for is not the Hope Professor of Q 6223. Zoology a professor of invertebrate anatomy ? — Yes, he is to some extent; hut] think that the terms of that professorship should be slightlv altered when (as I hojie at a very distant period) there may be an opportunity for doing so. 4.3 fO. But referring only to that future time (which with you 1 ho])c may be very distant) the university already has the chair of which we have just been speaking ? — Yes. 4341. {Chairman.) ft has been jiroposed hy some to call it a chair of zoology and invertebrate anatomy ? —Yes. 4342. {Prof. Smith.) If the Hope (irofessorship should become a jirofessorshij) of invertebrate anatomy it would require to have additional space placed at its disposal, would it not ? — It would ; hut if you had then created those two wings a considerable (piantity ot wdiat is now in the court would be removed, and more space would he obtained in that way. 4343. Would space in the court at all answer the purpose of a jirofessor of invertebrate anatomy; must he not have work-rooms? — Yes; he would not nant very many work-iooms for that ])urpose, and I think those perhaps might be found without requiring more s((uare area than you have at present. There might be some ])ermutations and combinations effected which would furnish work-rooms for the subjects of im ertebrate anatomy. 4344. {Chairman.) I believe you are prepared to make a statement as regards the present financial jiosi- tion of your department, and the present ])osition of the work which is done in it with regard to teaching, preparing sjiecimens, and jireparing catalogues ? — I gave a detailed account of the amount of money spent in my department in a return called for by Lord Francis Hervey’s interpellation in the House of Commons upon this point, and also before the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission. See Report vol. ii., p. 160, 1874. The main and salient new point is this : that if it had not been for Christ Church within the last tw'o or three years I'urnishing the collection with 250f. I should have been considerably in del)t ; but Christ Church has seen fit to provide for their series that amount of money within, I think, the last three years in addition to what the university gives me. The university gives me about 420/. per annum for what is called the maintenance of collections, the word “ maintenance ” not meaning preservation but maintenance ofcollections abreast of what they ought to be in the way of addi- tion-s, and so on. I happen to be very fortunate in one of my demonstrators who chances to have some money of his own, and he (Mr. .Jackson) is able to stay on that account. He is quite indefatigable ; he is well acquainted with modern languages ; and any memoir that comes out in German or French, or even in Italian, he can at once make utilisible for the students, and he does so. He gets only 90/. from the university, and that, I think, considering that he is a Master of Arts is a very small stipend for him to get. In the future, especially, if this proposal was acceded, to, I certainly should want another demonstrator, and I should be glad lo have a person of his capacity; so that that would give an indication of the increase of expense which an enlargement of the plant would entail. 1 could not undertake the responsibditie.s of an enlarged department without having another demonstrator of the calibre of my present one, Mr. Jackson, who can read French and German, and, as of course being an Oxford man, he does Latin and Greek ; and the modern languages now furnish us with much material in biological work. The amount of periodicals that appear, even in Italian, since the reconstitution of Italy, is immense. German and French I need not say anything about, as they speak for themselves. 4345. The other main division of your proposed evidence relates to the requirements of the university generally. The first head which you have put down there relates to the constitution of electoral boards, and as to their performance ? — I would, with your Lord- ship’s permission, put in a paper on the constitution M m OXFORD. O’. RoUestoVy Esq;, D.M. 2 Kov. 1877. 27-1 UNIVK!;SITY OF OXFOKI) COMMISSION: — 3IINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. G. Itolleston, Esq., JJ,M. 2 Nov. 1877. oT ^iecionil boards, though not as pledging inyselt’ to Its being uniinproveable. (The ,eak of in a hoard of this kind is that there should he the knowledge that an exj)ert should bring; that in addition there should he a knowledge of the wants of the locality, and that the outside world sliould be represented. The fourth essential would he that it should be possible or likely that tills hoard, or at all events the majority of it. should know when they meet for one election that th.ey may very probably have to meet again for another. It is a very invidious thing to say this; but I must say that as against all the invidiousness of laying down a thing of this kind, which is a very annoying thing to have to speak about, one must consider that the fear of opening a door to jobbery hampers all efforts al university and much other improvement too. The multitudinous precautions that we have to take to avoid jobbery really prevent individual initiative at every turn in every effort that one takes for improvement in human affairs. The university-recpiirements-reports, drawn up by Council, which discussed this matter at great length, adhered to the luunher of five; hut taking the vice-chancellor as representing the pu’olic opinion of this jdace the persons v horn it associated with him were two, one to be elected by the Hebdomadal t'oimcil, and the other by congregation. I think that is an e.xcecdingly important addition. The opinion of experts was to he rejire- sented by one professor f’-om the department, and by one in pari materia, at Cambritlge, or the President of one of the learned societies, scientific or otherwise. I am distinctly of opinion that this principle might be extended, with great benefit to the university, to elections to the headships of colleges. I think it is just and right that the university should It -e a voice in such a matter as that of an election to a headship. 'I'he jiost itself is exceedingly imjiortant, and the heads of colleges have a share in the university management assigned to them in the proportion of six out of 21 members of the University Council ; the vice-chancellor and proctors forming three, the pro- fessors six, the heads of houses six, and the masters s>x. 4349. {Mr. Bernard.) You think that the univer- sity should have some voice in the appointment of heads of houses ? — Yes, I would give the university two votes, say the chancellor and the vice-chancellor if you choose. I do not feel stiongly about that, hut I do feel strongly that the rest of the hoard of five should he composed of three members of the college who should be elected by two \ otes for three vacancies, and by that means a minority would he reasonably represented. 43.50. {Chairman.) With respect to examinations and examiners, do you wish to make any remarks to the Commission ? — I think that thou.;h the appoint- ment by the vice-chancellor and proctors has worked fairly well, that plan does not answer all the reipiirc- ments of a good electoral board for examiners ; no on (he other hand would I transfer that function to the Boards of Studies or to the jirofessors ; but I would combine the two boards, and I would have the ap])ointment to examinerships made by the vice- chancellor and proctors, together with a number of other electors contributed by the Boards of Studies. 4351. Have you coiisideied what should be the number ? — Two, I think. 4352. Should those two be elected in each case by the j)articular Hoard of Studies ? — Yes. 43.53. But as the examiners have to examine in a great number of subjects, could theie be an examiner to represent every Board of Studies ? — In every school 1 would have the Board of Studies charged with the interests of that examination school set to send in two re})resentatives to sit on a hoard of five, the other three of which should be the vice-chancellor and jiroctors. 1351. 'I’hat would be a difficulty, would it not, in the way of a further subdivision of the Boards of Studies ; for instance, it might possibly for some reasons be exjiedient to constitute a Board of Philo- logical Studies; but there would be a dlfhculty, would there not, in saying that they should have a further voice in the choice of examiners in addition to those who belonged to the School uf Litera; Humaniores? — Yes, then they might send in one, and the Literal Humaniores Board if both subjects were treated of in one S(4iool might send in one other. I should not wish to see the professors made necessarily examiners as has often been suggested. I have no great aversion to their lieing assessors, lint I do not think that it would be well to make a jirofessor who ought to be a teacher also an examiner of those who have been taught by him. 4355. It has been strongly urged upon us that if the collegiate system of tuition remains substantially as it is the professors will never attract students to their classes unless they are examiners, or have some power over the examinations ; do you concur in that view ? — No doubt that would draw persons, but I think that the somewhat coarse comparison of auditing one's own accounts would come home very strongly to the minds of jiersons who deal in sucli analogies, and that would render it liable to at least the suspicion of abuse. 4356. People say now that abuses arise under the practise of appointing college tutors as examiners ; is that so ? — I think the rule whereby no two examiners can come from the same college at the same time must prevent it. It is not a common thing to hear even a whisper of sus[)icion of unfairness in our exa- minations. 4357. What is suggested is not that the judgment is unfair, but ihat the tutor from a particular college has a great influence in setting questions, and that those questions are necessarily of more advantage to tl.c n;bcrs of his own college than to others ; what is your view as to that? — It must in the nature of the case clearly lie amenable to that. Still the exami- ners do meet together and deliberate beforehand as to what (juestions should be set, and one examiner could not force any very great majority of his own particular questions into an examination paper, I apprehend. 4358. {Mr. Bernard.) However, perhaps you think that if the Boards of Studies had some voice in the election of examiners, the professors forming a con- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION t MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, I O siderable eleinont in ibe Boards of Studies would by that means have a suttieient voice? — Yes, it would be an indirect influence, and 1 tbink it would be all tlie less liable to be abused on that account, tbougli still it would be a potent one. 4, '159. It would be far less invidious ami at the same time an ecjually suilicient way ? — Yes. 4360. {Cliaintiun.) What is your \iew with regard to research ? — I see that a great deal has been said about the claims ol’ knowledge when knowledge is divorced from teaching duties. Now 1 may say that the cases in which a person who has valuable know- ledge cannot teach are comparatively rare, and it may be said ected to lecture at one university, then went to Leyden, where they were glad to take him without this obligation, trusting that ‘-he might “ improve by conversation and stimulate by example “ the learned of the place.” When he died it was said in the funeral oration, ‘‘^Ut nouiinis sui Itonorem “ Acudcmuv. hu'ic itnperfiret, .scriptis eandem illns- “ traret, prccsenlla cojidecorarct.'’ Or I might refer to another instance (in which the Savilian professor will confirm me) about the pains which Sir Henry Savile took in trying to secure the best men (as helms succeeded in doing in so many cases) to hold his chairs : that they should send to the nnnisters of foreign afliiirs abroad to see what could be done to “ allure ’’ (this is the very word) the best men obtainable to till them. ood deal also in the same sense will l>e found in the “ Universities Commission’s lleport for 18.32.” p. 97, ae<](j. to 108 inch Professor Hal lord Vaughan also wrote in the same sense in his “ Lectures on Modern History,” published in 18 18,. and in his pamphlet which came out in 1852. 4361. (d/y. Bernard.) Those eminent persons whom it was thought so desirable to secure were ex- pected to teach, were they not? — Salmasius definitely stipulated that he should not be obliged to lecture ; and it would .veem that he was simply to he there to “decorate” the place by his life and by his writings. 4362. Sir Henry Savile required the professors to teach, did he not? — Yes; but those cases, which are not very common cases, can be provided for by some such machinery as the last “ L'niversity Recpiirernents Report ” points out, that is to say, that a certain amount of money should be available in the hands of the governing body of the university for emergencies of this kind, that you may buy such a man’s services, by making him a Professor Extraordinarius, as it is called (that is to say, his appointment would not be perpetuated after bis death), secure the benefit of a man’s society which cannot be overrated, and the vivifying effect that he would have on all around him. 4363. Do you not think it desirable that such a person should be under some obligations to lecture ? — -I would not take a [)cr.son of that kind unless he was of an entirely indisputable eminence, unless he had given to the world in his writings and by his performances absolute proof that he was a great man ; and I would not take untried men without giving them definite detailed duties. But from time to time it is to the interest of the university to have a great man on the spot available for intercourse and for elevating men’s standards of work and of method. 4364. {Chairman.) If he were to be free from the duty of lecturing, I sr,p|)ose you would also hold him fr(>e from the duty of residence ? — I think not. “ coudceoraret'’ was a condition upon which Leyden insisted when it m 4, .Salmasius free from lecturing. 436.3. If you have neither the man's lectures nor intercourse with him, you would get no good from him at all, would you ? — Except, I think, in the way in which some of our lionorary doctors of civii law are useful who procure for us a great many specimens from all over the world. 4366. You would not, I suppose, pay a professor of the kind that you have been describing a very high salary ? — No, I should not give him more than an honorarium for that, but an honorarium which would keep him attached to the plac<*. I would ju.t say that one of our great necessities here is more men. You ask, why does Germany do so much and why does England with its revenues do so little^ The real explanation lies in the fact that the sociai con- dtions of the two countries are so different. We here give ourselves greatly to examination ; we should not otherwise keep in order our young men who have abundance of means. The explanation I refer to is just the same *;xplanation as Gisco gave to Hannibal at the battle of Canme. There are so many of them in Germany with, so much less to do. Here in Eng- land we have either a great amount of other work, or we have (as I have j two de|)artments instead of one; whereas in Germany you have the subdivi^^ion and multiplication of /ier.so?mel carried out to a great extent. I (hink we want an increase of that kind. The work of this j)lace (let people who do not live in it say what they like (is exceedingly heav}-, and we want more men, and this is one way of getting men. 4367. ( 4//’. Bernard.) A re there not perhaps more people engaged in teaching in an English university, than there are in a German university if 3 'ou take in the college tutors and the intercollegiate lecturers ? — Yes, hut they represent only one line of operation. Then again, even in the interests of examination and attract- ing students, if you have a great many professors you will attract per.sons to the university. If you look at (Milton’s “ Areopagitica, j). 391, ed. 1697,” you will see that he speaks of the reputation of English philosophy as attracting yearly what he called the “stay’d men from as far as the mountainous borders of Russia,” and the same thing might happen again, and I suppose to a certain extent it does. I recollect a Russian coming here being attracted simply by the rejiutation of the late l-’rot'essor Donkin, and every one knows we have always had a small sjirinkling of foreigners at this place. I have liad Americans at the museum, and so on. 4368. (Chairman.) Do you observe that such effects are produced hy the living examples whom one may call to mind ; tor instance one may, without any in- vidious comparison, mention such men as Professor Alax Muller and Sir Henry Maine; has the experience of those appointments justified your expectations? — I think that if you only look at two such persons as Mr. Sayce and Mr. Papillon, both of whom liave written books, and are not slow to acknowledge their obligations to Professor Max Miiller ; there j'ou see that he lives by means of his pupils, and that is a great matter. I am sorry to have to say (it is what the late Prime Minister has spoken of) that the great wealth of the country necessitates our examination system, and I believe a great deal of tbe order of the place (for the place is orderly) is due on the whole to so many people being, as it were, under the sword of Damocie.s in the impending examination. If you get a professor like Professor Max Miiller or .Sir Henry Maine, who are wrestling with large problems, sucii as the right of tenure of land in other than communistic fashion, or with some other great question, whicii to speak very vulgarly, does not pay in tlie schools, you cannot expect a large audience to go to lectures on those subjects ; and the persons who take interest in such subjects .ire very often exceedingly Overworked and busy, probably in the Hebdomadal Council, or some- thing of that son, aiul they cannot lie in two places M m 'Z OXFORD. (7. Rollestoii, Esq. V.'f 2 Nov. 1877. 276 UNIVKUSITY of OXFOIM) COMMISSION*. — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFOUD. (r- liollcstou, 2 Nov. I87V. once, even if Professor Max Muller or Sir Ileiiry Maine is one of the lecturers. 4369. { Mr. Bernard.) You think that the value of an university professor cannot he measured by the largeness of his class ; he may have a tit audience, though few ? — Just so. 1 owe a great deal to this place in the educational intluence of conversation with such ])ersons as those whose names have been men- tioned. It raises one to a higher standard and makes one discontented with oneself, and makes one wish to make, so to say, a better machine of oneself. 4370. {Chairman.) Do you desire to express any opinion as to the relation of the colleges to the university ? — I am sorry to say that I am rather out ot harmony with most of my friends on this subject. I think that this free competition,' though it is what is called a Philistine notion, is nevertheless a thing that wc arc not wise in opposing to any great extent. Jou hear ofeconomv, of saving money, of preventing the waste of force, of organisation and systematisation, and so on ; but what I have already said 1 would repeat : that it is better to pay twice for a thing and to get it than to j)ay once only ibr it and not to get it at all. I have been severely competed with, but I really do not think it did me any harm or anyone else; perhaj)s it did me good ; and I do not wish to sec rivalry or the ])ossibiliiy of competition abolished. If I were asked what I wished to see done it would be this. I think that if a college found that one of its I’ellows had a propensity to work at some natural science subject or other it might set apart a set of rooms for some time for the j)urpose. The trouble is that such a large amount of material is required for working at any natural science subject now, that it puts persons at a disadvantage compared with scientific workers in the time of Wallaston, who said he could carry his laboratory about with him in his pocket, consisting of a ])iece of ])latinum wire and a blow pipe; but I think that microscopic and mineralogical subjects might be worked out in colleges in sej>arate rooms assigned lor the purpose, and I think that a teacher of natural science might be established in every college as a sort of “witness and keeper of scientific writ.” I do not urge this, but I do not entertain the strong feelings of ojiposition to it which a great number of persons do who think that with the great advantages which we undoubtedly ])ossess in the museum as regards science and its costly and cumbrous appliances occu- pying a great area, such additional aj)pliances would be rather a waste of money. 4371. I understand that as far as the general system of teaching in the university is concerned, yon are not in favour of any material interference with the func- tions of the colleges? — I would not interfere with them certainly in the way of protecting the university teachers to any extent. 4372. {Prof. Smith.) As a matter of fact the colleges, except in two or three instances, do not teach natural science ? — No. 4373. But you see no objection to their doing so on any moderate scale that would not involve a great expenditure of money upon plant? — 1 think that that risk would be excluded by the nature of the case. A single person, such as our friend the late Mr. Wynd- ham, might with advantage have had a set of rooms assigned to him for working at crystallography, but I should not recommend making large “ j)lants,” and I think you would find that the young men themselves would be anxious to come to the museum inter pares inter ceejualcs ; but I would have no protective statutes either for the colleges against the university or for the university against the colleges. 4374. {Mr. Bernard.) The Magdalen teachers have told us that the Magdalen laboratory acts as a feeder to tbe museum ? — That is the case. 437.5. {Chairman.) With respect to fellowships, what have you to say? — The experience which I have had of the Badcliffe travelling fellowshijis has been considerable. An tne Radclifi'e travelling fellows for the last twelve years have been distintruished in the Natural Science Schools ; and the existence of this jn'ize has done the department of anatomy more good than anything else. A young man gets a prize after j)assing through the training for this school given In the university museum which enables him to make himself into a doctor; it gives him 600/. By that means young men from Oxford have got of late into nearly every hospital in London in the position of one sort of oHicer or another. Further, they have been enabled, after ]>aying for their university educa- tion, to get a second education, that of a doctor, by means of the provisions of this terminable fellowship which is tenable only for three years, and which is worth 200/. a year. It has done a great deal of good, and I think that very much the same might be done in the cases of the other professions. The Radclifi'e fellowship was founded by the great Dr. Radclifi’e with a view to medicine, and if I had another Rad- cliffe fellowshi[) to eonnt upon I have very little doubt that I should double my numbers, because there would be two j)rizes a year instead of one, and 1 should in that way get the means of making two new doctors every year in this place. In this place a very large number ot men have absolutely no means for support- ing themselves after they have taken their degree. Their parents cannot find funds for them, and unless they are assisted by means of a terminable fellowship they have to take up with the first thing that ofiers, the mastershij) of a school, or what not. 4376. {Mr. Bernard.) It also serves to promote research, in the strictest sense, does it not, and wider study than could be got by ordinary methods ? — ^A man is obliged then to travel abroad ; that is one o f the conditions ; but a man cannot get a medical edu- cation anywhere if he has no funds. If a man has 150/. a year of his own, it is a very nice thing for him to get another 200/. I think the tenure of those fellowships should be mostly septennial and not triennial. 4377. Why should you oblige the fellow to travel at all it it is merely to assist him in obtaining his medical education ? — That is amenable to the often urged objection of over-legislation which I feel as strongly as most people. It may be said you should leave a man free choice and let him learn by experi- ence ; let him go abroad if it is better for him. But many a man is tem[)ted to stay in England and loses great advantages that he might get by going abroad. It is amenable to the objection of over-legislation, but it has worked well. Men have gone abroad, and have brought us more into rapport with the con- tinent. There is not one of those Hadclitfe travelling fellows who has not brought back valuable infor- mation. 4378. {Prof. Smith.) Are the Radcliffe fellows required to study at foreign schools, or are they simply required to stay out of the country? — They are simply required to stay out of the country, but M'ith the examinations hanging over their heads they do study there, and as it is limited to men who have gained first classes they are always men who go abroad to work. I do not think it would benefit us to re- quire certificates of attendance at ho.spitals, because we find that they have always attended a great number. 4379. If a man went out as a zoologist attached to a scientific expedition he would be doing the kind of thing that the travelling fellowshij) contemplates, would he not ? — I think not ; the man is obliged to take a degree in medicine. 4380. {Prof. Smith.) That is to say, the Radclifi'e fellowships are fellowships for the study of medicine ? — Yes, a man is obliged to take a degree in medicine. I think that is a mistake. It is an evil thing to require a man to do something in futuro for money that he has got in prmsenti. I think that is rather a snare to tender consciences. 4381. You think In the first place that he should n.:'t be required to travel, and in the second place that he should not be required to take a medical degree ? — Though on doctrinaire princi})les I should object to requiring travel, yet I presume that if the practical UNIVEUSITY OP OXFOKD C0:MMISSI0N: — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 277 results arc not l)ad you may he wise to leave tlic regulation as it stands ; hut as to re(]uiring a man to take a degree in medicine, I think that that is rather a snare than otherwise. If you examine a man before you give him the tellowship against his ni(jitales in medicine, you may count upon his going on in medi- cine, because he ^vill have a proficiency in medicine wliich will ensure his continuing in it. '1382. (Mr. Bernard.) ^Vith respect to these fel- lowshi[)S I wish to ascertain whether you thiidc any cotulitions ought or ought not to he enforced, or whether you would he content to take the l>est man who presented himself, giving him an income for more or fewer years, and leaving him to make the hest of his time ? — findouhtedly I should do that. On the other hand in this particular case, I do not tliink there is any abuse or disadvantage which should call for its being altered. I should say, examine a man in the subjects which you hope he will study in the future, and when he has shown that he is an expert in them, then set him free to follow them out without further binding of him by conditions. 4383. {Chairman.) Would you propose to extend the principle of these travelling fellowships to all the prize fellowships in the university ? — 1 would cer- tainly. This is what the mathematicians call, I be- lieve, a “ simple case.” It has worked very well as a terminable fellowship, and I would with reference to the other professions extend the term of tenure to say five, or at the outside to seven years, and I would not hiive them renewable except by a board on which the university was represented. 4384. If renewed, would you have them renewed in consideration of special service past or future ? — ^ Special service in the past. I would illustrate my meaning by the words, “ Diesque tarda videtur opus dcbcnlibas.” To make a man work with something hanging over him has a bad influence. Examine him in the subjects which you wish to have studied ; if he has a proficiency in them he will go on with them. I only know' one disgraceful case of a man •retting a first class in the Literm Humaniores School and burning his Aristotle afterwards, which filled me with more disgust than I can express since it showed that he had just w'orked it in the way of a trade. If a man has good attainments in a subject I should look for no further guarantee. 4385. (Mr. Bernard.) In what w'ay would those fellowships differ from the existing fellovvshiiis ? — In being terminable. 4386. (Chairman.) But renewable.^ — But rene ar- able. 4387. Should they be renewable indefinitely from time to time ? — I should renew them I think twice, and after the third renewal they should be held in perpetuity. I will not enter into the question of celibacy, because I have not gone into that ; but I should wish that an University Board should decide whether a person should be re-elected or not for a term of seven years, and to secure further protection against that leniency which besets us all in this place, and which besets all humane persons, I would have a certain inferiority of numbers in the persons who are re-elected; that is to say, that their re-election should not follow as a matter of course. 4388. Would it not be eciually likely that it would follow as a matter of course within the limits which you would allow? — I think a definite statement should be put out that a person should produce something to show for the outlay of public money which he had enjoyed during the seven years of his tenure, for instance, some book ; or if a person when elected to a fellowship chose to stay here and labour amongst us, say at teaching or at university business, such business say as being the secretary of the middle class exami- nations, or secretary to any other administrative business of the university, such a person as that should be allow'ed to say, “ See, I have been actively “ employed here. I have had certain business to do, “ or 1 have written a certain book. At any rate “ here is activity for seven years, and here is proof “ for reward for the next seven years.” 4389. Definite university work, or work for the universitj', of course we can understand, but with regard to the other test about the book is it your intention that the fellowship should oidy be renew- able for extraordinary merit and as quite an excep- tional thing, or that it should be renewable for ordinary merit ? — I should say that it shoidd be renewed for ordinary merit if a person had wu'itten a respectable work which addeci something to our means for communicating instruction ; I would not say quite a book of a |)altry or popular school-book kind, but any respectable edition of a classical work ; or if a person had written a coiqile of pajiers which were thought worthy of publication in the Royal Society’s Transactions, or anything of that kind. That I think would be quite enough to iustify you in giving him a fellowshi[) for seven years. It is quite enough to justify the lioyal Society in giving a man the fellow- ship of the Royal Society. 4390. Which is not a paid office ? — No, but the honour of it is very considerable, and being able to write those letters “ EJl.S.” after his name is a thing that has its jiecuniary value, I apprehend, to a man in his profession. 4391. (Prof. Smith.) The second test that you have named, that of having w’ritten jiapers which have been admitted into the philosophical transactions, is somewhat severer than the first test which you mentioned, that of having written a respectable work of ordinary merit ? — Yes. 4392. ( Chairman.) Would not even that test be rather a liberal reward, if you gave a man a seven years’ fellowship because he had written two papers which had been published by the Royal Society ? — The Royal Society is exceedingly strict as to the papers that it admits, and a )»crson who has written two papers for it is exceedingly likely to Write more on the priucijile of continuity. A fellowship of 200/. a year for seven years is oidy 1,400/. \Mien I was on the Council of the Royal Society myself I have heard this principle laid down, and I should think it a saund one, that a person is worthy of being made a fellow who has had two papers in the Transactions. 4393. (Mr, Ber?iard.) Sup])osing that a physician or lawyer living in London, or a gentleman living in the country, during his first seven years’ tenure, writes a book of fair merit on (we will say) a professional subject, would you give him a fellowship for another seven years ? — I should there shelter myself behind the words of the old examination statute, Lcnilafi ubique consultum vo/amas.” 4394. ( Chairman.) 'fhe presumption would be in favour of the renewal ?— It would, I think, if the person had given proof that he had a certain amount of respectable activity. I should think that his doing that between the ages of 22 and 29 would be jire- sumptive evidence of an irrefragable kind, that be- tween the ages of 29 and 36 he would do something better still. 4395. Do you not think that the effect of that would be that all or most of these terminable fellowships would become perpetual ? — Out of every two that were terminable I would have oidy one renewable. That would limit it at once by 50 per cent. 4396. That would operate in a somewhat arbitrary manner, would it not ; the men might be of equal merit, but only half of them would get renewed ? — I suppose there is no meeting that objection ; but that applies to most arrangements of the kinl. The many fail, the one succeeds, when the vacancies are fewer than the candidates. 4397. Do you see any very strong objection to making the fellowship absolutely terminable at seven years? — I think if you I'ctained the condition of celibacy, in all probability you would not be troubled with them. I do not see any very strong objection to it. If I had a choice between having the present condition of fellowship.s, and having a tenure for seven Mm3 OXFORD. G. ItollesUm, Rsq., D.M. 2 Nov. 1877, 27S UNIVKRSTTY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD G. JioUeslon, Esq., D.M. 2 Nov. 1877. yr-ars, witli definite termination at that time, I would <. ndnace the latter with both hands at once. -lo98. (l*rqf. S7)iif/i.) Would it not he a possible arrangement that the fellowship should definitely terminate at the end of seven years, and that if there was a re-election at all, it .should be on new grounds altogether ? — In this matter I have not prepared mvselffor anything else than just to lav before the Commission what 1 could tlo with as much know- ledge as anyone else, that is to say, the good working of a medical fellowshi]) definitely terminahle at three years ; Init I should be quite content with fellowships definitely terminable after seven years. On the other hand, I think that possible renewal might be of advan- tage, and that 1 should l>e glad to see the experiment fairly tried. 4.‘399. ( Chairtnan. ) Will you state what is yoitr view with regard to the Bodleian ? — A great deal of good has been done lately at the I'odleian library, but 1 think a great erroi was committed by the university in not moving it up to the Parks, owing, perhaps, to want of nerve, or want of idetil, or want of power to see the real issue at stake. 1 feel that no greater issue is at stake in the university than that of making the Bodleian a large institution. I hope the Comitiission will not think that 1 am falling into the vulgar error of looking upon a thing as being good because it is large ; but 1 am sure that unless the Bodleian is enlarged, one of the two pedestals on which the universit)’ stands will be considerahlj- impaired. It is impossii)le for us to compete with London in the fight against centralisation unless we have the Bodleian an exhaustive all-meeiing institution. The spirit, res o/Jiite.s fii/iidf geUdeiju.e 'miiii.straiis is both oitt of date atid out of place with regard to the Bodleian. It is one half, the literary half, of university life, and a slrengthening of it is a juotest against one-sidedness. There is a tendency to throw discredit upon purely literary studies; but literary stiulies are one half of the life of all mankind, and certainly one half of the life of the university. I do not wish to see one of the eyes, to use the old (ireek metaphor, left inferior in strength to the other. Mcnce 1 have urged again and again the strengthening of the Bodleian. I do not feel myself com])etent to go into details uj)on this subject, but 1 happen to he a curator of the Bodleian, and we have a scheme at present under the consideration of the curators. (Jf course I should wish to know' what my colleagues think about it before I pronounce as to it ; but I my- self feel that in the future there are two or three things that ought to have development given to them. One is the coin department. The books on numis matics, such as those wdiich Mr. Evans has written, are of great consequence. I think some one should be aj)pointed as reader in numismatology, with charge of the numismatic department. There are very great gaps in our coins, which are very little creditable to a classical university. We are inferior in many points to other collections, and of course the coins of Greece or of Borne are matters w'hich go to build up the history of each country. A very excellent develop- ment of the Bodleian in the way of lending hooks to what are called viri dneti within the precincts of the university' has lately taken place, lhat is a new' step. There are several other new lines of development still to he entered upon ; there it the ])rinting, not only of catalogues, such as the catalogues of coins which ought to be printed, I think, with illustra- tions, but also of what are called anecdota. When one is brought into relation with the Bodleian, one feels much in the position of a man who receives enter- tainments without being able to return them. \\ e get books from all parts of the world, and w'e have nothing to send back, 'fhe Bodleian ought to make some sort of return to the various scientiiic societies and imperial and royal libraries, w'hich send so many books. 1 think that the publishing anecdota is a second line of development which must be looked uj)on as an university' . couirement in the future, and one which w'ill necessitate a pecuniary' outlay. 1400. What is your view with regard to eleemo- synary assistance to poor students ? — I am sorry to say that 1 am very miudi t'pposed to eleemosynary assistance to poor students. I think a man shoidd be helped to any extent in s|iite of but never on account of his poverty. In a plutocratic country' like this w'here a person comes amongst other j)ersons who are better furnished with money he is always labouring under the notion that certain slights are put upon him. There is much less of it in Oxford than there is in the public schools, and much less than there is in the wmrld outside, (but still it is an evil here, and some colleges have given up Bible clerkships very much on that account. My own college was asked in 1852 by the first University Commission, “ What do you con- “ sider to be the advantages or disadvantages of such “ a body of scholars ? ” And the answ'er given by my own college, Pembroke, at that time (I w'as then a fellow of Pembroke) was this: “The advantage of “ such scholars is great if they' be men of vigour and “ talent ; but w^e think it a serious evil for a man to “ be educated bevond his intellect or raised to a “ station which neither his taste nor his abilities w'ill ‘‘ enable him to adorn.” The University' Commission at that time did not shrink from the invidious task of enforcing that matter. At ]iages 39 and 40 they say' with very great plainness : “ The temper of our times “ is averse to the continuance of such distinction. “ We have no wish to encourage poor scholars to “ come to the university merely because they are “ poor.’ I must say it is really rather a cruelty. Such persons feel the badge of poverty' very acutely ; sometimes it leads to their asserting themselves as though they w'ere rich when they are not, wliich is a ])osition winch a man ought not to be put into ; and sometimes it engenders the reverse style of bearing, which is also an evil. 1401. Upon the subject of discipline and moral supervision I see you state it to be your opinion that the heads of colleges should undertake to exercise some supervision over the lodging-houses, and that the proctors should not both come into office at the same time ? — As regards this important subject, it is well to face the fact that persons will be found to say that it is not within the province of a university to concern itself wi th moral discipline. In this matter, as in many others, the university' but reproduces what may' he observed in the outside world. The accompanying e.xtract from a pamphlet of mine on the Indian Civil Service, p. 6-7, printed and circulated this summer, and herewith laid before the Commission, will show the e.xistence of this wide discrepancy amongst persons who speak with authority in that field : — “ As regards “ the second moot point, the possibility and expe- “ diency of pi oviding a sy'stem of moral training for “ young men. Lord Nortiibrook, the late Viceroy of “ India, and himself an old Oxford man, p. 228, uses “ language which clearly' indicates that he thinks it a “ benefit to students to be ‘ subject to university or “ college discipline.' The Governor of Madras, p. 243, “ writes in the same sense. Mr. Hobhouse, p. 235, “ par. 12, p. 237, par. 31, on the other hand, would “ appear to agree with Mr. Hare, p. 196, who con- “ siders such arrangements as those alluded to as “ ‘grandmotherly care.’ Towards the end of the “ volume, however, at p. 316, we find Colonel Yule “ speaking somewhat mournfully of his connexion as “ a student with an ‘ institution where a kind of “ military spirit and continuous work formed the “ only' salt that kept it from utter badness. The “ morale of the cadets was a thing utterly uncared for, “ in fact utterly' unrecognised, except occasionally “ by one or two of the professors who happened to be “ also soldiers.” I should have thought that there was less room for such a difference of opinion as re- gards scliool boys ; but from Dr. Wiese’s “ German Letters on English Education,” recently (1877) trans- lated and edited by Ur. Leonhard Sclimitz, I learn that great differences of j)ractice, not to say of theory nu'rely, exist even in this sphere of education. At page 164 Dr. Wiese enumerates certain classics read in our English public schools, and adds, “ We eer- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 27 !) taiiily exclude tlieni from our class-rooms; '‘the question is whether our age should still bear this.” At j). 166, after ([uoting Lord IMacaulay as applying “the English princiole, ‘ boys and youths must take their risk,’ to the domain of morality,” Dr. Wiese says, emphattically, “ Few (icniKui parenf:; and teachers would he hielieed to i.acar sneh. a rish." 'I'he adoption of the two very reasonable schemes men- tioned in your Lordship’s (piestion, would commit the university to the side which regards moral discipline as part of her duties, and I should be glad to see this done. 4102. What have you to say upon your last point which is as to the long vacation? — 1 perhaps might say with regard to the physical side of the matter that unless there is an uninterrupted period of three months a great deal of mischief will accrue. I have had and have still from time to time a good deal to do with people who at this place get overworked. 4403. It is sometimes four months, is it not ?— 1 do not think it is so for persons who are actively engaged in the university work. I never get a chance of get- ting away much before .July 1, or staying away much after October 1. 4404. (Prof. Smith.) For the undergraduates it is four months ? — For the undergraduates it is, but 1 ought to have said to the j)eople who are engaged in working the place. All I ask for is the three months of July, August, and September; those, I think, should be left intact. If a period of uninterrupted leisure is not conceded e(iual in length to that, then we shall have a great many more breaks down than we do have here ; and we have some that are very dis- tressing as it is at )>resent. 4105. (i)/r. Benatrd.) Then should the Christmas and Easter vacations remain of their present length ? — No, I think not. I have seen a great deal of mis- chief from people not being able to get uninterrui)ted rest and change of thought and scene, and I think that three months is the minimum time in which that can be ed’ected. The persons here must not be judged of by the standard of persons who attain great professional or statemanlike eminence, or both, because those persons have been exposed to exceedingly severe selection, and you will not find that the work of this place will be carried on year after year without a large number of breaks down. When these take place 1 am clear that the only plan is that a person shoidd have entire change of scene and a continuous absence ol' at least something like eight weeks which you can get of course within a period of 12 weeks. That is the three clear months that I ask for, or in another form 1 should say that 28 weeks of work is on the whole about as much as you will get healthfully out of this place. Again, in summer you would find it exceed- ingly difficult to keep young men, a large number of whom will always be wealthy men, hard at work unless they are under examination. 4406. { f*rof. Smith.) You would propose to have as much as 28 weeks of lecturing to the undergraduates? — I think perhaps about as much as that. I do not like it to be said that you have only 2.5 weeks of work otit of 52. What I want is a greater length of terms. The terms are far too short ; the amount of work that has to be crammed into the terms on account of their shortness is very heavy indeed ; neither do young men in those short terms get the advantage of mutual intercourse and of laying their minds alongside of other people’s minds in the way that they would if the terms were 10 weeks, which is about perhaps what they might be. You might have two terms of 10 weeks, a short term of six weeks, and one month in the sum- mer examinations. But in this matter I only wish to lay before the Commission the facts that I have col- lected together with the opinions without definitely pledging myself that my own plan is better than those of others. Those of others have been j)roposed by such persons as Sir Robert Cbristison, Mr. Kitchin, and the Rector of Lincoln College. 4407. { Mr . Bernard .) 1 understand your suggestion to be that the Michaelmas term should consist of rather more than nine weeks of clear working time ; OXFt)RI>. that the Hillary term should consist of somewhat more ^ Rolkston than 10 weeks ; and that the Easter term should consist jj of rather more than six weeks, and that the working J time of that term should end on the 3ist of May, June 2 Nov. 1877. being left for examination ? — Yes, that is my view. 4-408. ( Prof. Smith.) So that the undergraduate who was not in for examination would have a vacation lasting from the 31st of May until the 1st of October? — From the 1st of June by my plan. 4409. {Chairman.) You would give him four months in every year whereas now he only gets it in some years? — My suggestion contained in this printed paper is that all the examinations should be held in the summer term so that the undergraduates, having to pass three or four examinations and having only three years, would be with one or two exceptions under examination in that term. Berhaps if I were allowed to put in the I'ollowing papers, viz., two pointed state- ments of my own views as to the relations of our terms, vacations, and examinations inter se ; secondly, a similar statement by the Rev. G. W. Kitchin, simi- larly printed and circulated in the university ; and thirdly, a tabular view of ibese plans, and of those pro[)Osed by the Rector of Lincoln and by Sir I oberl Christison respectively, I should best meet the con- venience of the Commission. \_The same was deli- vered in. See Appendix No. ii., A. (a) and (^), Dr. Rolleston’s statements; (y) Mr. Kitchin’s; (S) Tabular view.] 4410. {Sir M. W. Bidleij.) Is it not your own ex- perience that most of the best work by honour-men is done in the long vacations, aiul that there are too many lectures to attend and too much work crammed into the term ? — Yes. At the present time, when the college tutors reallv take a great deal of pains with their men, they communicate so much compressed knowledge to them in their note books that a man has net the lime to assimilate it except in the vacation. He has often to write out at night very c mpressed information from his note book on very recondite subjects. He goes to bed and gets up again, and the only time that he has for taking stock of what has been crammed into him is in the vacation. . I'lll. {Chairman.) Is it the practice now as much as it was formerly for honour-men to read with tutors ? — I do not know whether that is the case or not. In the Natural Science School one of the peculiarities is that ])i'ivate tutors are scarcely wanted at all at present. 4412. {Mr. Bernard.) Was not Sir Robert Christi- son’s plan that the year should be divided into two terms of about four months each, leaving two vaca- tions, one of them of three months and one of one month ? — That is so. 4113. {Prof. Smith.) Would it not be the best course of proceeding in such a matter as this to deter- mine first how long you intend the courses of instruc- tion to be, whether for six months or for seven months or I'or eight months in the year, and when you have determined this, then to consider what would be the best distribution into terms of those courses having due regard to the health and welfare of the students ; otherwise you are in danger, are you not, of mixing up two very different questions (1) how long the courses of instruction should continue, and (2) whether it is better to have a long vacation and two very short ones, or to distribute the vacations in some other manner ? — The hot weather here does really stop work to a very great degree, and you are tied down by that to a con- siderable extent; and also (though it is a disagreeable thing to have to say) Oxford is now getting such a show place that the amount of visitors who come in the warm weather prevents anybody who is at all in a pid)lic position and accessible from having any leisure to himself. I am very glad to see foreigners, but in the warmer parts of the year my life is very much taken up in showing those distinguished indiviuuals various objects of interest, the museum of course first of all. 4114. All those considerations point to the advis- ability of adhering to the present plan, and (jf having, M. m 4 280 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. G. liolleslov. Esq. D.M. 2 Nov. 1877. as we have now, a long vacation in the summer ; but tliey do not liel)) you to determine how long you would have your courses of instruction to be ? — I have taken a great deal of advice from persons upon that jioint, and I find that a great many people are of opinion that 10 weeks’ work is about as much as you get out of men, and that then they break down at the end of it. On the other hand my own experience is that I think people can stand 10 weeks very well. There would not be the same amount of jrress and hurry, or the utter impossibility of digesting and assimilating the amount of instruction and informa- tion that is communicated to them in the hurry-scurry of an eight iveeks’ term. I think if you take two long terms, say^ of 10 weeks, that makes ‘2.0 weeks; if you take one of six weeks for a summer term, and an additional month, that gives 30 weeks. 441 d. That gives yx)u only 26 weeks of lectures as compared with the 24 weeks that you have now ? — Yes, I do not think yam will get much more than that exclusively of the weeks devoted to examinations. 4416. Are you aware what is the usual duration of courses of lectures in a German university now ? — I had some tliscussion with a foreign student about it lately^ and he told me that if y'ou looked at the calendars you might be mistaken; he said that they always contrived to get a clear three months’ vacation. 1417. Is it not true that their courses of instruction last for about seven months in the year, though they appear in the calendars to he longer ? — Yes, 1 think that is about it, hut I am not quite sure with regard to that. 4118. i^Chairmati.') Sir Matthew Ridley spoke of the fact, which we all know, that the best class of students often employ their long vacations very well ; are they' permitted to do so in Oxford if it should be convenient to them for pecuniary' or other reasons to do so ? — I always have a number of persons working in the museum in the long vacation. I tell them I cannot afford to give them instruction or let my de- monstrator do so, because our material appliances are \ ery expensive, and take a great deal of time for being got into order and supplemented, which can only he done in the long vacation, hut they' provide themselves with instruction, and they know how to work, and they do work. The only precaution that is taken is this: the tutor of a man’s college writes to mo and asks in jdain terms, “Is he to he trusted?” and I write back and say, “ By all means let him come.” 4419. Are the libraries open? — Y'es, the Radcliffe is open except for a month, and the Bodleian, except for one week in October. 4420. (Prof. S/itif/i.) What is your opinion as to the length of time during which such institutions as university laboratories should be open during the year? — I think it is of great consequence that the whole teaching staff should have leisure. 4421. I submit that that is hardly an answer to the question which I asked ; because it is clear that by sup- lying an additional number of demonstrators, you could secure for everyone a four months’ or a six months’ holiday'. The question is whether, having provided a very expensive plant, you are not by working it halftime working it at a very considerable loss ? — 'i’hat point did not strike me. I do not see any great disadvantage in it if a corresponding increase in our teaching power and the outlay upon it is made. I have above (Quest. 4344 and answer) pointed out that the stipends of my demonstrators are inadecpiate. Yet they are for term-teaching only. Gn the other hand, I think that the head of a department would be rather fidgetted by thinking that he was absent whilst his apparatus w'as in full i)lay', and 1 think that that is a justifiable feeling of anxiety'. In my department w ith a museum and preparations, a ))erson who knows how to manipulate ordinarily requires a minimum of super- vision ; you see that great apparatus in the Court is really a very cheap thing, for it enables y'ou to dispense in the long vacation with a certain number of demon- strators. With reference to teachers, I would say that if a teacher has not a long vacation, he very shortly becomes exceedingly worthless. If it was not for a long vacation I should never add anything to rny own knowledge, and I should be ashamed to meet my class again in the October term. A teacher w'ho fails to add anything to his own independently acejuired stores of knowledge, very' soon becomes unfit to teach. Activity is also necessary on the side of the learner. For if y'ou have on the part of the pupil merely the receptivity of writing down what is dictated by some clever young man as the condensed result of his long study that is a very debilitating influence for the mind to be subject to. 4422. {Chairwon.) Is there anything else that you wish to state to us before concluding your evidence ? — I think Oxford runs some considerable risk from the centralising tendencies of the day, those central- ising tendencies resulting from the facility of access to London ; in an hour and a half the temptations, and splendours, and pleasures of the metropolis can be reached. I put this merely as a sort of excuse and explanation for my making the claims I have made. 1 think it would be a great e'il if Oxford w'as provincial- ised, and if centralisation hindered its being one of the leading centres of thought aud intellectual activity. Of course that would be ruin to us, and it xvould be a misfortune to the country ; and I presume the Com- mission u'ould all be of the same opinion. That would be a sufficient excuse for even exorbitant demands. But what do I wish to see done ? I wish to see the museum increased in the way of ))lant and build- ings ; and first and specifically in the particular way given in detail above. (Quest. 4298 and answer.) I wish to see the Bodleian made stronger in the way of purchasing more books and having more appliances for the hooks being used ; and I wish to see what I have not spoken, of, \iz., a Museum of Classical Archeology and Art. I cannot understand how in a classical university we have so long gone without what is an indispensable complement of the literary side of ancient classical life. I also wish to see university oflices of a creditable kind so that if I may say so an University Commission would not have to sit in an hotel. In the way of additions to the vcrsonnel I think at the museum there ought to be an increase in the two dej)arlments of physics, and that the department of physiology ought to be added to it, and the anatomical department so far relieved; I think there should be a professor of classical archaeology and art ; and in the linguistic' side I think a professor of the whole class of Dravidiau languages might for political reasons with advantage be placed side by side with the professor of the Sanskrit language. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 10 o'clock. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 281 OXFORD. Saturday, 3rd November 1877. Present : The Right Honourable LORD SELBORNE, in the Chair. The Right Hon. Moontague Bernard, D.C.L. The Rev. James Bellamy, D.D. Sir Mattheav White Ridley, Bart., M.P. Professor H. J. S. Smith., M.A. The Rev. T. Verb Bayne, and T. F. D allin, Esq., Secretaries. Charles Neate, Esq., M.A. (Fellow of Oriel College), examined. 4423. (C/iairma?i.) Will you first favour the Com- missioners with your views as to any enlargement of the professoriate which you think desirable or necessary ? — My answer to that would depend a little upon what I may know or believe as to the scope of this Commission. I mean how far this Commission would think it within the scope of their powers to consider any alteration in the constitution of the university. 4124. What the Commissioners have at present practically in view is to furnish themselves with the information which will enable them to discharge the particular duties which are expressed at the end of the 11th section of the statute: “The Commi.ssioners “ shall not approve a statute so made by a college “ until they have published, in such form as to them “ may seem fit, a statement with respect to the main “ purposes relative to the university for which, in “ their opinion, provision should be made under this “ Act, the sources from which funds for those purposes “ should be obtained, and tbe principles on which “ payments from the colleges for those purposes “ should be contributed.” It is to get the infor- mation necessary to enable them to discharge that duty that they are now sitting in Oxford to take evidence ; but they have thought that the best course in order to get that information is to leave the witnesses very much at large to state their views upon subjects relating to the university in general as distinct from particular colleges? — My opinion generally has long been that the colleges might very properly be called upon for a very large contribution to the funds of the university and specially for the development of the professoriate ; but the extent to which I would go would depend very much upon what the professorship to be endowed is. One condition in my mind of a large endowment of the professoriate would be to put the professors upon a much more independent and separate footing from the colleges than now exists. I would make the piofcs- soriate more of a separate body. I would indeed ex- clude the professors from being members of colleges. I would make tbe professors and the assistant pro- fessors and the body of university fellows which I would propose to create, a separate corporation, and 1 would give to the professors the privilege of having every other time the appointment of a Vice-Chancellor. What I would give to the professors depends very much upon how far that may be done. I would make it a condition of the professorship that they are to reside during eight months, and that they are to print at the university press a syllabus of each course of lectures, and one lecture at least of the course to be given in each term, and subject to those conditions I am prepared to endow them very largely. 4425. Is it your opinion that a large increase in the number of professors is wanted, or any increase ? — I would rather defer to the opinion of those who have had more experience of the teaching of the uni- versity than I have had, which is indeed very little. I have no doubt that a considerable increase is wanted. Those who have been on the Board of Q 6223. Studies in each department are far more competent than I can be to say what that increase should be. I have some observations to offer on two or three of the professorships. 4426. What is your view with regard to the pro- fessorship of civil law ? — I think that the professor- ship of civil law should be upon altogether a different footing ; in fact I would suppress altogether the pro- fessorship of civil law. I think it has been a great mistake to continue civil law as a faculty, and I think we ought to have in Oxford, as they have at Cambridge, a faculty of law. A faculty used to mean some branch of learning connected with prac- tical application. There was a faculty of theology, and a faculty of civil law, which then was a serious profession. It was a practical profession. Civil law' had a monopoly of a very considerable part of the legal administration of the country. It had been for many years nominal, because no doubt in the Admiralty Court and in the Ecclesiastical Courts there was no civil law ; it was merely the forms. There was much more civil law in the Common Law Courts than there w'as either in the Admiralty or in the Ecclesiastical Courts. Now that that jurisdiction is taken away, there is nothing to found a faculty upon. I would therefore make the teaching of civil law only a department, but a very important department, I admit, of the professor- ship of jurisprudence. 4427. Do you think it would be more consistently assigned to a reader than to a separate professor ? — Yes, I think it should be one important branch of the professorship of jurisprudence. There is one part of civil law which I think should belong to the profes- sorship of ancient history. I think it is a fault in our readings of history w ith our pupils that they do not sufficiently connect history with an account of the law, especially that part of the law which is part of the institutions of the country. For instance, the leal property law' is part of the institutions of the country ; the law which regulates the status of individuals is part of the institutions of the country; and I think that the historical part of the civil law should be made an important branch of the teaching of ancient history, and the jurisprudence part should be an important part of the teaching of the professor of jurisprudence, but I think it is not a desirable thing to put civil law in a position as it appears to be of superiority to the English law. I think that the English law, taking it altogether, is a higher and a better law' ; and at any rate it is a very different law from tbe civil law ; it is a law' founded upon a very different principle; but I think our mode of legal education is likely to mislead young men and to induce them to underrate w'hat I believe to be the higher and juster spirit of the English law, and at the same time to make them trust too much to what may prove to be a deceitful guide. There is this vital d.stinction between the Roman law and the English law, an ignorance of which is likely to deceive people, that in the old Roman law proprietary rights depended upon the legal status, which is the foundation of their law, and our legal status depended at first, and still in N n OXFORD. C. Neate,Esq., M.A. 3 Nov. 1877. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. C. Neale, Esq., M.A. 3 Nov. 1877. 28 2 some degree depends upon the nature oi'tlie property. But I would still leave the teaching of the civil law as a very important branch of two branches at the university teaching, the historical and the juris- prudence. •1428. The next professorship on which you propose to make some observation is that of international law? — Yes. In the first place it does not affect, of course, the present holder, but a very great mistake was made in the amount of the endowment assignable to the professorship of international la.v. The pre- vious University Commission were not really aware of the amount of property with which they were dealing when they proposed to give, I think it was, five fellowships for that purpose. I believe that they supposed a fellowship at All Souls’ to be worth 120/. a year, and that they meant to give 600/. a year to the professorship of international law. But the fellow- ships of All Souls’ (I speak under correction) are fast approaching to 300/. a year, and the professorship of international law has now an endowment of 1,500/. a year, or something approaching to that. 1 think it is a great pity that that which is really the least useful of all our professorships should have by far the greatest endowment except one other professor- ship on the same footing. I think that the profes- sorship of international law is one which might be held with advantage without residence, that it might be held by a man liolding a public position in London, by a member of Parliament, and with a very much reduced ])ayment of course, and that many rising public men would be veiy glad to come down and give a course of lectures ui)on international law for 300/. or 400/. a year instead of 1,500/. 4429. Sir William Ilarcourt, 1 think, holds that chair at Cambridge ? — Yes. 4430. Do you know what endowment that chair has at Cambridge ? — It is somewhere about that amount. 4431. (A/r. Bernard.) It appears, does it not, that tl;e Commission contemplated that more than 600/. would he applicable to that chair from the terms of the ordinance creating the professorship of inter- national law ? — I have not looked at it, but of course the received idea ilien was that a fellowship at All Souls’ was worth 120/. a year, and live of them would make 600/. 4432. I think you will find, if you look at the ordi- nance, that the college was enabled to compound within a certain short time by allotting 750/. to the chair, but that if they did not compound (as they did not) within that time, then the chair was to get what increase of the fellowships it could?— I was not aware of that. 4433. ( Chairman^) The next professorship is that of political economy, upon which you have some observations to offer ? — I have very great doubt of the use of a professorship of political economy at all. 1 would not venture to propose its entire suppression, because that might be in opposition to the general oj)inion ; but I believe all that educated gentlemen need know, or even that public men need know upon political economy as a science may be written in 20 pages and learned in a week, and I think political economy, as at present taught, has the effect of making young men waste a great deal of valuable time, and it rather tempts them to enter into a field on which they are too willing to enter, that of practical politics, and the examinations are very often based upon the most recondite, and at the same time the most useless part of the falsely so called science of political economy. I would not propose the suppression of that chair, but I would connect it with a branch of history which has been too much neglected, which is the history of the commercial and economical progress of mankind. 4434. Does not it at present comprehend that idea ? — They do not give lectures uj)on it. My objection to political economy as at present taught, in the first place is that there is a needless waste of time in studying such utterly useless disquisitions as Ivicardo’s theory of rents, and questions of that sort, which have no sort of practical value, and it tempts people to fiill into practical error. It is a thing which can only be learned by experience, and it is not the part of a university to teach men the principles of banking and to teach tliem under what conditions the right of issuing j>aper may be entrusted to private jiersons, either to bodies or to individuals. 4435. (/4r. BeUamij.) Do you disa|)prove of its being made the subject of examination in the schools as it is? — ITes, as it is I do. I have noticed in the small experience that I have had, which is not much, that young men have wasted what appeared to me a great deal of valuable time in reading the abstruser chapters of Mill which I believe Mill himself thought at the end of his life to have been a great waste of time to have written. 4436. {Cliairman.) I think you once held the chair yourself? — Yes. 4437. Have the lectures generally attracted stu- dents ? — I believe the present professor is a very at- tractive lecturer. 4438. The next j)oint I see which you have noted down is as to the relation of professors to college tutors, what have you to say upon that point ? — My idea is that the greater part of the higher education of the university should be in the hands of professors, and that the college tutors should accept tlie position of being assistants or critics to the professors, they might be very intelligent and very useful critics, and I would therefore give to the professors that time in the morning which is now taken by the college tutors. I would make it a condition of the endovvment of every professor that his lectures should be given between 9 and I o’clock. 4439. Would you exclude college tutors from lecturing during the same hours ? — No, I think that now there are a great many, too many, lectures of college tutors, and that it would be better both for the men and for the tutors if the men were less lectured and were left more to themselves, but as to the special relation between the college tutor and the lecturer, the college tutor should require those of his own college who attend the lecturer to give him an account of it and to make an abstract of it. In that way he would be a very valuable assistant to the professor, for the professor can hardly have time to look over the abstract which each one of his pujiils should make, whereas the college tutor would have that time. He would be very useful even although he might not be so well acquainted with the subject as the professor himself, for he would probably know enough about it to be a very intelligent and useful critic, and I think that a man would derive very much benefit from talking over the lecture with his tutor. The tutor might say — that is very clever and very new, but 1 do not believe it to be true. I think in that way by discussing the subjects of the professor’s teaching with so intelli- gent a critic as the college tutor would be, the student would not only acquire the habit of reducing his ideas into shape by making an abstract of the lecture, but he would get a new light thrown upon it by his tutor. 4440. Would you apply that to all the branches of instruction which are given in the university, or only to some of them ? — More especially to history and philosophy. 4440cr. Not so much to classics ? — No. 4441. (A/?-. Bernard.) Would you apply it to law ? — No, not to law, that must be entirely in the hands of the professor. 4442. {Dr. Bellamy.) Do you think that a tutor Mould continue to take much interest in looking over abstracts of lectures given by other people ? — He Mould have an opiiortunity of conveying his own original thoughts upon the subject. 4443. Y’’ou have had some experience of that in Oriel, M'ith regard to university sermons, have you not. Abstracts of sermons M'ere taken and looked over by the dean. M ere they not ? — I believe that that M’as at one time a very useful exercise, and would be now M'here it was seriously done. 4444. {Mr. Bcrnaid.) Hom' M’ould you secure this new species of lecture that you speak of, and how UNIVKRSITY OF OXFORD C03IMISSI0N M TN UTES OF EVIDENCE. 283 could you secure that the tutor should be contented with those more modest functions that you would assign to him ? — By giving the professor the best part of the day — not exclusively — and by the necessity which the tutor would feel himself under of assisting his pupil in his preparation for examination. d44.5. ( Chairman.') Would you require students to attend the professor’s lectures? — No, 1 would leave that entirely to the college. •14 tG. (d/r. Bernard.) But the professor now has the whole day, has he not ? — There is only one pro- fessor that gives a lecture at 9 o’clock. 'H47. Generally most of them lecture between 9 and 1, do they not ? — I am not aware that any do, except the Savilian professor, he lectures at 9. 444'8. Surely almost all the professors lecture at some hour between 9 and 1, do they not ? — I thought they lectured at 2 o’clock, most of them. 4449. At any rate a professor now may, if he pleases, lecture between 9 and 1 o’clock ? — Yes, I know he may if he pleases. 44.50. What would you propose to do for him more than he has already ; by what additional means would you secure this particular apportionment of the duty as between the tutor and the professor which you say does not exist now ? — I would introduce the practice of public lectures as well as others, but especially public lectures being in the morning. 4451. (Chairman.) We have a paper showing that at present professorial lectures in Thucydides, Tacitus, Sanskrit, and several subjects of Divinity, are all given in the morning, between 9 and 11 o’clock? — Yes, I am aware of the Divinity lecture. 4452. We find that all the Divinity lectures, except two, are given in the forenoon ; and there is one by Mr. Wordsworth at 1 o’clock, in the Septuagint ; in Liter® Humaniores, Professor Sayce has a lecture at 1 ; Professor biaton has a lecture at 1 ; and with these exceptions they are all in the forenoon or at noon. Then in Mathematics, Professor Price has a lecture at 1 ; in the Natural Science School there are three at noon, and one at 2 o’clock ; and in Law, Pro- fessor Bryce has one at half past 4, and all the rest are in the forenoon ; in Political Economy there are three at noon, and one at 1 o’clock ; in the Fine Arts, three at 2 ; in Languages, one at noon and one at 1 o’clock. The great majority of them all are in the forenoon already ; the only difference that you would make is to require that they all should be ? — Yes, before 1 o’clock. 445.3. Do you think that would accomplish your object, supposing the tutors were at liberty at the same time to give the same kind of lecture ? — I w'as going on to say that I think the tutors should to a certain extent leave the higher education of the university, subject to their own criticism and co- operation, in the hands of the professors. I think the colleges have rather lost sight of their great duty, which is not to make good class-men, but to make good pass-men. I think there has been a great deal too much of competition for university distinctions, and that the college performed its duty very much better in having few failures than in having many distinctions. There is no doubt that there is in some colleges, more especially of late, a great neglect of those who are only reading for the ordinary degree. There are two distinguished colleges who give it rather to be understood that they do not care for any under- graduates except those who are reading for honours. I think a college which does this forgets its primary duty, which is to act for the great majority of those who come up here, and who come to read simply for the pass. 4454. Which are those two colleges ? — Balliol and New College. I do not know that they entirely act upon it, but it is certainly understood that they do not wish to have anybody who is not in a condition to read for honours. I think myself it is a great question, now that the public character of colleges as well as of university properly has been established, whether any man has not the legal right to ])Ut down his son’s name at any college and to insist when the time has come upon his right to be called upon in his turn. 4455. You think that there should be a general matriculation examination for all the colleges ? — Yes, and the onus should lie upon the college who refused to take a man to give a reason for it. 4456. You would have that examination conducted, w'ould you not, by the university ? — Yes, I would have a matriculation examination, and everybody who could pass that examination should, according to the time his name had been put down, be entitled to admis- sion to the college which he had selected, or which had been selected for him. 4457. You think that the tutorial system should be retained for pass-men ? — Yes, and also class-men. I believe that the critical assistance of the tutor would be very valuable indeed, and to a great extent, as it places the tutor in a position subordinate to the professor. He must look over what the professor says, and he would say, “I warn you against this or that. “ I think that he is mistaken, and I would recommend “ you to follow up a little more independent reading.” 4458. Without some practical r(‘gulations do you think that the duty of the college tutor to the class- men could be so limited as to make him oidy a sort of assistant to the professors ? — I do not say the whole of the education, but I say that the higher education should be more than it is in the hands of the pro- fessors, and the college tutor might, according to his capacity, have a very high class of classical lectures, but it is chiefly with regard to the lectures on history and jrhiiosophy. I thiidc that those should be left more to the public professors. 4459. Would you recpiire those candidates who go in for honours to produce evidence that they had attended the lectures of certain professors ? — Yes, I would. 44-60. That would be the way in which you would secure your object ? — Yes. 4461. The next point upon your paper relates to the creation of university fellowships in connexion with the unattached students, and also as a source of supply to the colleges? — Yes. I think that a certain considerable number of college fellowships should bo so applied. Besides what is done in the way of pro- fessors and assistant professors there should be a body of university fellows, and those fellows should stand in the same relation to the unattached students that the college fellows do now to the students of their own colleges ; that is to say, they should be bound to give them tutorial assistance, on the condition, per- haps, of a more moderate payment than the students at the colleges make to their tutors. 4462. That object might be accomplished by ap- pointing tutors to the unattached students, might it not? — Yes; but I think a further object might be attained. The university fellow should be generally the professor’s assistant. There would not be a very great number of them, and they should be generally at the disposal of the university for any work which the university required, whether it was to assist in the teaching of the unattached students, or whether it was to do what has been very greatly neglected, the editing of books, which was not likely to be undertaken as a speculation. There is a great deal of work to be done for the university press, which might he done by those fellows, and 1 think that they miglit be a very convenient supply for the colleges. I would give the colleges the option. Perhaps even I might go eventually further, and say you must choose the fellows of your own body out of this body of univer- sity fellows. There could be no question then, and there would be no distrust about the college exami- nation, and those whom the university said that they had selected as a body fit to be fellows would net iXMjuire any testing of their intellectual jrowers by examination. I think it is very desirable that you should, to a great extent, in the selectioii of fellows, admit the i>rinciple of co-optation; that is to say, you should not choose merely by examination, but you should choose those who have other merits besides N n 2 OXFORD. C. Neate, E.it]., M.A. 3 Nov. 1877, 284 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. C. Neate, Esq., M.A. Nov. 1877. those which are evident upon examination, and who are more likely to act well with you. I think, sup- posing there were a considerable number, not a very large number, hut a considerable number, of univer- sity fellows, it would give the college the power of selecting the sort of fellow more |)articularly wanted to satisfy the present needs of the college, and if they wanted a mathematical fellow they would know where to find him. That is a branch of teaching which every college should, I think, amply provide for, and that is a branch of teaching which re(]uires a great deal of tutorial assistance, and I think every college should he well provided with the means of teaching; that is to say, with first-rate teachers in mathematics. 4462. You think that the former Commission, and the legislation founded upon it, went too far in the direction of competitive examination for fellowships ? —Yes. 4463. {Mr. Bernard.) How would a university fellow be chosen ? — He would be chosen by examina- tion. 4464. Conducted by whom ? — There, again, is a very great question, and that again involves the ques- tion of the constitution of the university. I should be prepared to give a very great share of the patronage, or the disposal of offices, to the Council, if the Council were differently composed. I would not trust the Council as it is now composed, but 1 should trust it if it was differently composed. I think a great error was made, and I am not singular in that opinion, in not having the three sections of the Council, each of them elected by the members of the classes whose representatives they were. I think an especial great error was made in not making the heads of the col- leges on the Council selected by the class from which they came. I would do the same thing with the professors, and I think if the Council were so con- stituted, 1 should not say anything against the Council, I should have greater confidence, and should be more willing to give them power than I am to give it them in their present state. 4465. You would place the power of electing the university fellows on examination in the hands of the university authorities, either the Hebdomadal Council or somebody constituted by the Hebdomadal Council ? — Yes, and I think that a greater interest should be given to the Chancellor in the management of the university than he now has. I think these university examiners should be appointed subject to the appro- bation of the Chancellor of the university. I think the university has made a great mistake in excluding the Chancellor from all practical share in the govern- ment of the university. They had too much of one Chancellor at one time, and since that time the university has both had a Chancellor and has treated him with great reverence, but has entirely excluded him from all practical share in the government of the university. I think that there are many offices of which the patronage might be properly given to the Chancellor, so far at least that he might make a selection out of two or three persons whose names should be submitted to him by tbe Council. 4466. {Chairman.) Would not the consequence of that in practice be that some particular individual in the university, who might possess the Chancellor’s confidence, might govern the university to the extent of his power? — It is very true it is open to that, and no doubt it might involve the necessity of care in selecting the Chancellor. We should not select the Duke of Wellington for a Chancellor n-ith that power, but the present Chancellor might be very well fitted to exercise it. 4467. Do not you think that his duties, if he occu- pied any public station in the government of the country, might make it very difficult, if not absolutely impossible for him to follow so closely the needs of the university? — Subject to this remark, that I should wish to see some alteration in the Council, I am very willing to trust the selection oftho.se examiners to the Council. But supposing there were three examiners for those fellowships, I would have one of them a Cambridge man. 4468. {Mr. Bernard.) A college fellow as such has no definite duty, I think, though it may be under- stood between him and his college that he shall under- take certain duties ; is the university fellow whom you contemplate to have any specific duties, or merely to he the best man who may go in for examination ? — He would he waiting till he was called upon. He would do work for the university, but he would he j)aid extra for that work. I would make those fellow- ships not so desirable, but that it should he rather regarded as a promotion to be made a fellow of a college ; that is to say, it would be an improvement in his position. 4469. Take the case of a university fellow so elected ; may he go away to London and read for the bar ? — No, he should reside. I do not know whether the Commission are now considering the terms upon which fellowships should be held, or whether that is to be considered at a later period of the inquiry. 4470. The question arose out of your suggestion that there should be a body of persons who would be entirely new to the university, and I merely wished to ascertain what the status of those persons, according to your view, would be ? — Whether my scheme is adopted, which is not very likely, or whether the present system of college fellowships should go on, there should be a distinction between professional fellowships and resident fellowships. I would have two classes, one of resident fellowships in which the holders should be under the obligation of giving their services to the college if they are college fellows or to the university if they arc university fellows; and I would have terminable profe.ssional fellowships which would be held by non-resident fellow.s, but held only subject to the condition of really following a pro- fession. 4471. What would be the particular advantages which you see in this scheme of university fellows ? — I think it would avoid questions that arise now and then. The college elections are not always satis- factory, sometimes very much otherwise. 4472. The elections b} this board you think would be always satisfactory — I think they would, and you would have a very high class of examiners, and very highly remunerated according to the work they should do. 4473. The colleges have, have they not, a very strong interest in electing fellows who will be credit- able to them and often also fellows who will be useful to them ? — They have a very strong interest also in electing fellows who will fall in with the existing rule of the college. I do not say that I have ever ,=een anything of the sort, but it is open to the suspicion that fellows are elected who are likely to fall in with the prevailing opinion of the college. No doubt fellows have been elected as the representatives of a particular set in the college. Under my proposal you- would not have that ; though you woukl still have the majority of the college choosing out of this body of fellows one who would be most acceptable to them. 4474. {Chairman.) You would constitute that body by a stricter, and as you think, more impartial or safer mode of examination, and then give the colleges free choice without examination out of that body? — Yes, that is a very inqDortant consideration. 4475. You told us before that you would incorpo- rate, as we understand, the whole body of university professors ; would you separately incorporate each professor also ? — No, coupled with that incorporation there should be a considerable university building assigned for the use of the professors and assistant professors, so that they should have the use of a common hall which they might use occasionally, and they should also have the use of a common room and library. 4476. Would you establish that accommodation for them in the same building in which the public lecture rooms might be |>rovided ? — That would depend en- tirely upon the space. I would rather disconnect it UNIVRRSITT OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 285 from that, because in the same building, I would have the public reception rooms of the Vice-Chancelloi'. I think that every Vice-Cluincellor should have a certain set of public rooms placed at his disposal where he should hold all his receptions, and if he chose to oc- cupy it, it might have a certain number of bedrooms attached to it, and if there was a guest of the univer- sity, he should go there. I would increase the payment of the Vice-Chancellor to a thousand a year. The capability of the Vice-Chancellor to represent the university depends very nnich upon the capabilities of the house in which he lives, which in some cases are by no means adequate to represent the dignity of the university. The Vice-Chancellor might or might not live there, he might still continue to have his own domestic house, and he might have the use of those rooms whenever he wanted them for public receptions. 4477. You would make the assistant jirofessors members of this incorporation ? — Yes. 4478. And the university fellows also ? — I have some hesitation about that; it would depend very much upon their number. 4479. Would you place the unattached students in any definite relation to this incorporation ? — No. 4480. {Mr. Bernard.') T can well understand your opinion that the university professors and readers should have opportunities and means of meeting in conference and the like, and seeing one another, but there are two things which I do not clearly under- stand. One of them is what you precisely mean by the incorporation that you propose, and secondly why you think it an advantage that the professors should be entirely disconnected from the colleges. Perhaps you would be good enough to explain those two things ? — I think that the system of their connexion has gone too far. I wouhl tvish to promote a whole- some, but at the same time a friendly, spirit of rivalry between the professors and the colleges. 4481. The reason why I ask the question especially is, that your scheme for the division of labour seemed to me to involve the tiecessity of very cordial co-opera- tion, and not of rivalry, between the body of profes- sors and the colleges. Co-operation seems to me to be most essential, and indeed indispensable, to its working at all, and yet you would propose to discon- nect the professors from the colleges ? — In some in- stances, in that which is more properly the college work, there might be rivalry, but still that rivalry might be friendly. I think that the proper teaching of a college is ancient literature and mathematics, ancient literature including ancient philosophy ; and in those departments there would be emulation espe- cially as to matters of scholarship between the colleges and the university teachers. 4482. Are not people more likely to be friendly when they have an opportunity of seeing one another ? — I should hope there would be a great exchange of friendly hospitality between ])rofessors and fellows, as the professors would be able to return the hospi- tality to the fellows by asking them to the professors’ hall. 4483. Perhaj)s you would further explain whether you mean anything more by the incorporation of the professors than thcit they should have a common hall, and opportunities for meeting and conference; do you mean anything else ? — The incorporation should have the management of its buildings, the incorporation would involve the power of making byelaws ; but an association would answer the purpose. 4484. {Chairman.) Your plan is exactly the oppo- site of that which we have heard from some other gentlemen who think it desirable that every professor should be connected with some college ? — -Yes, I know it is. I think the error has been that the colleges have endeavoured to assume to themselves work which more properly belongs to the university. The scheme for the associated colleges has been ar, attempt to create nn imperium in imperin, to have small universi- ties. It is like a university within a university, and 1 think that has been a mistake. 4485. You are aware probably that the Hebdomadal Council has recommended that university readerships should be tenable with college tutorships. I presume that you would be against that ? — Very tnuch against it indeed. 4486. With reference to the conditions of the pro- fessorships, it is your opinion, is it not, that they should lecture for eight months, and that the university should publish at least one lecture of every professor in each term, and a syllabus of their whole course ? — Yes, and that the copyright of that should be divided between the professors and the press. A professor might publish more if he liked. He might publish his whole lectures. The publishing of the syllabus would be a great assistance to those who might be appointed as examiners, because they would know what were the subjects to which the attention of the students had been directed. 4487. Have you anything more to suggest upon that subject? — It falls in here, when I am speaking of the university press, to say that I think a very large out- lay of money .should be made upon the university press. I think there should be a very large grant to the university press, and that the university press should renounce the idea of publishing for profit, and that the occupation should be not that of publishing things that will sell, but of publishing things that will not sell, and that nobody will i>rint ludess they are printed by the university. 4488. {Prof. Smith.) Do you not admit that the delegates of the press have already published certain works which will not sell ? — I know they have, but I tiiink theie has been too much of the mercantile s|)irit in the administration of the press. 4489. (Chairman.) Do you think that the income derived by the university from that source should be renounced ? — Yes, to put it practically, that is what I meant ; that whatever profit is made should go to an accumulating fund for the press. 4490. If an accumulated fund had reached such limits as were necessary to maintain the press for the purposes which you have in view, do you think that the university should confine itself to publishing un- profitable books ?- — But the university does publish a great many unprofitable books, and I think it is very unlikely that the income should reach that point, but I can hardly conceive a state of things in which there would not lie very useful publications desirable to be made which would not pay. 4491. If in other respects the publications were of equal merit, would not those which were likely to be extensively read be more useful to the public than those which could have very few readers ? — There really are a great many things that are not read by the public in general, but of which the public get the benefit of the ])ublication, because they are read by those whose business it is to distribute them. There are certain jiersons who are distributors of knowledge to the public, and who would benefit by those publications, although the public at large would not buy them. 4492. {Prof. Smith.) I understand your objection to be in the main against the university undertaking to publish a series of educational works ? — Yes, that is so. 4493. {Chairman.) If that is so done, as not to stand in tlie way of more learned works but still to bring in a profit, do you think there is an objection to it? — I think that too much has been done in that way. There is one educational work which the university ought to publish, that is a good Latin grammar. That is one of the purposes for which the delegates of the press should make a large outlay of university money, to have a good Latin grammar. I believe one of the difficulties that young men have felt in the learning of Latin of late years is the changing of the grammars. The change may be an improvement when rightly mastered, but so far as I can make it out myself, what is called “The iSchoolmasters’ Primer” is a great stumbling block in the way of learning, and I know undergraduates have explained to me the increasing Nn 3 OXFORD. C. Neate.Esq. M.A. 3 Nov. 1877. 286 UNIVEUSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. OXFORD. C. Neate,Esq., M.A. 3 Nov. 1877. Bev. H. B. Gear ye, M.A, number of plucks that, there were at one time from this circumstance. They said “ We cannot make head or tail of the grammar.” I think that a considerable proportion of our university money would be well laid out in obtaining and publishing the best grammar. 4494. Supposing that were done, would it not in the result be a very profitable publication ? — Yes. I do not object to the profit. There is now a very distinguished scholar, I mean Mr. Nettleship, at work upon a new Latin dictionary, which is eminently a thing which the university should do, and no doubt that dictionary when it is done will he the best Latin dictionary that there is, hut that should have been done on a large scale. A dictionary is a thing which requires co-operation. Men should look over each other’s work, and in that way secure identity of principle. I would select four men and I would give them 1,000/. apiece for three years to make a dictionary in Latin. 4495. (Sir M. fV. Ridlcjj.) As I understand Mr. Nettleship is doing that independently ? — Yes, that is so. 4496. ( Chairman.) Are you of opinion that there should be scholarships established for the benefit of unattached students ? — Yes, and tenable only while they continue to be unattached students. I think there are too many scholarships in some ot the col- leges, and I think without calling upon the colleges for a pecuniary contribution you might take some of the college scholarships and give them to the unattached students. I tliought we had established the principle that property held by a college is quite as public in its nature as the property which is held by the university ; and therefore the question of robbery or spoliation is an antiquated idea and has ceased to have any application. 4497. (Chairman.) Of course one of our duties is to consider what property the colleges have, which might be available for those purposes ? — Yes, and I would tax them in kind. I would say, Y"ou have more scholarships than are good for you, or at any rate your prize scholarships are rather too highly paid. I do not think that perfectly open scholarships should exceed 50/. a year. The colleges should have a fund applicable upon eleemosynary princij)les to those who are in need of assistance, hut the mere open prize scholarships should not exceed 50/. a year. 4498. The next j)oint uiion your paper is as to the relation of scholarship and philosophy, and the proper place of ])hilosophy in university studies. What are your views upon that point ? — The only observation I liave to make upon that is that when philosophy, as it used to he in former times, was incoiqiorated as a very important part of the scheme of university teaching, ])hilosophy was supposed to have an authoritative character (which it has unhappily long lost), and wliat the university taught was supposed to he the established truth in this matter. When they taught Aristotle, Aristotle was a hook that they thought had the same authority as the Scriptures almost. But the university has never made it j)art of its ’nusiness to teach speculative philosophy. Philosophy is only properly a part of an academical scheme when it is supposed to be authoritative, and when the university which enjoins the teaching is able to say, Now you must read that hook, because it will tell you all that is to be known upon that subject. When the univer- sity of Cambridge adopted Locke, Locke was supposed to have arrived at the limits of human teaching in philosophy ; and since that, in the same way when Butler was adopted, Butler was supposed to be con- clusive and that there was nothing to be said either beyond or against it. But philosopy unhappily since that time has acquired very much more of a speculative character, so that the university can teach people only how to speculate and not what they are to think ; and therefore I think that since philosophy has acquired that speculative character it is less an essential part of university teaching than it used to be. At the same time I would give increased development to logic in its widest sense. The university should teach men how they should reason ; and I think it may teach that very much more than it does. 4499. With regard to physical science, are you in favour of a considerable increase of the number of professors in ])hysical science ? — I am startled very much at the very large increase of physical science in Oxford. I think that a great accession of physical science students would be a very undesirable thing. I think that physical science should be taught more in a theoretical way than in a practical way. I should specially object to any very great development of chemistry or chemical teaching. I think the business ot an university in science is to teach mathematics, and to teach astronomy, and of course physics, but not so much experimental philosophy. I think that should not be made the subject of a class. I do not think it is desirable to encourage people who come here for the sake of getting employment at Manchester or else- where. 1 would much rather give the university money to be spent out of the university for the improvement of the teaching of experimental philo.sophy, than have it si)ent here. 4500. (Prof. Smith.) Y"ou consider that those 2)arts of natural science w'hich mainly consist in practical work are less fitted to be an element of a liberal edu- cation than those more abstract juirts which consist chiefly of deductive reasoning? — Yes. 4501. (Chairman.) Do you think more should be done for the encouragement of tbe study of modern literature? — Y"e.s, there is nothing done; there is no teaching of modern literature, and I do not think there is any increased knowledge of modern literature. 4502. The Hebdomadal Council has recommended a professorshij) of English literature ; do you agree to that ? — Yes, very much. I think that one great advantage which the French teaching, of which 1 have some experience, has over ours, is that they make the teaching of the boy’s own language the basis of his teaching. I think the basis of the knowledge of grammar should bo the teaching of our own language. However, that refers rather to school education than to university education. I believe it is that which makes FYench boys acquire Latin in a much (luicker time than English boys, because they begin by knowing their own language. 4503. (Prof. Smith.) Which is a Latin language? — Yes, no doubt that gives additional facility for it. 4504. (Chairman.) Have you anything further to suggest ? — No. The witness withdrew. The Rev. Hereford Brooke George, M.A. (Fellow of New College), examined. 4505. (Chairman.) Perhaps you will have the goodness to give us some information as to the man- ner in which the teaching of modern history, in which, I think, you have taken part, has been con- ducted for some time past in the university ? — I have acted as a sort of voluntary secretary of the associa- tion of lecturers, and as I have all the details ready I venture to offer them to the Commission. The asso- ciation is an entirely voluntary one among the college lecturers, and has nothing to do with the colleges as such. The paper that you have in your hand (the eomhined lecture list of (Tnivcrsiti/, Halliol, Exeter, New, Trinity, and JVorcester Colleyes,) is an arrange- ment between certain colleges ; ours is an arrangement between individuals, and therein is the great differ- ence. In fact it is sanctioned by some at least, if not all the colleges. I am not aware how many. My own college has, for instance, sanctioned this ari-ange- ment, and most of the others, I fancy, have done the same, but it is essentially a private arrangement. No college lecturer has any' right of admission, although as a matter of fact a newly appointed lecturer has nothing to do but to ask for admission, and he is admitted. So again, no undergraduate who is not a UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 287 pupil of one of our body has any right of admission, hut j)ractically we admit anyone who wislies to attend, on ])ayment of a small fee. Except so far as these few fees are conceined no money changes hands whatever, and to that we attach considerable imj)ort- ance for a reason that I can mention j)resently. The thing has grown quite gradually. It began some ten years ago (it may he more than that) by an arrangement between the lecturers of three colleges close together. Oriel, Merton, and Corpus were the three who began. After a year or two two or three more were added, and I think it was at the end of the year 1868 that the thing began on something like its present scale, in an arrangement between the lecturers representing 13 colleges. 4606. You are speaking still of the modern history arrangement exclusively ? — Yes, entirely. I think it was 13 colleges at first, and since then several others have come in, so that as a matter of fact at the present moment only two colleges are outside it — Worcester and Hertford. The professors have also co-operated with us, but it was not originated in any way by the professors. The lectures attempt to cover the whole field of the subjects of the Modern History School in about two years, which is the average period of study ; as to English history, which we consider the most important matter of all, lec- tures are usually given on every part of it in the course of about a year. I have brought with me the lists for the last two years, if the Commissioners like to look at them; but they are the only copies in existence, so that I should he glad to have them back. 1 have plenty of them for this term, but none in any past terms {handing in the same). If you look at them you will see that the lectures are not arranged on any regular system. Some courses of lectures are continuous during four or five terms, some last only for a single term. I have looked through those two years very carefully, and I find that practically every part of modern history has been lectured on in the course of the last two years, and all the English history, I think I may say, twice over, and one or two other subjects twice over. The number of stu- dents provided for in this way is, as far as I can calculate, about 200, and the growth has been steady ever since the division between the Law and History Schools about four or five years ago. 4507. Is 200 the average number attending each course of lectures ? — No, 200 is the total number of students for honours in Modern History at any one time, and I should say that on the average each of those men attends three courses of lectures per term, or thereabouts. The number attending a lecture, of course, varies enormously. I have known as many as 80, and I have known as few as four. It varies so greatly that one can say nothing about the average. 4508. So that the success would depend on the nature of the subject ? — A great deal would depend on the nature of the subject, and that is one reason why we attach importance to no money changing hands ; that is to say, if the remuneration depended upon the number attending a lecture, there would naturally be a certain competition for the subject which necessarily draw a larger number of students, whereas now that is not the case. For instance, the students are required to read the whole of English history, while in general European history they must choose one of four periods, which overlap each other to some extent. So that it may be said roughly that everybody may have to go to the English history lecturer, and only one third of the men to the Foreign history lecturer. Consequently there would naturally be a competition for the things which are most popular, land that we think very undesirable. 4509. {Mr. Bernard.) Do all the fees go into a common fund ? — There are no fees. The lecturers are appointed by the colleges, and paid by the colleges as they think fit. The lecturers have made a private arrangement, and they hold their classes according to the wants of the pupils. 4510. I thought you said that some students paid something ? — If any student pays anything it goes into the pocket of the individual lecturer. But no one pays except a member of a college unrepre- sented in the association, or an unattached student. The lecturers meet regularly once a term and arrange their lectures for the next term. There is no sort of attempt at a formal division of the subject, and no pressure whatever is put upon anybody to lecture in a particular way. They do as a matter of fact find out what subjects are vacant ; the younger men coming in find out to what subjects their seniors have devoted themselves, and choose something else; an < also if it is found in a given term that a particular subject is not going to be lectured upon, and has not been lectured upon in the last term or so, somebody who has not made up his mind to the exact subject of his lectures for the next term will probably select it if he can ; but that is the total amount of pressure that ps exercised in any Avay. We have obtained in that way a vast amount of division of labour. I could tell which particular subjects each lecturer has on the whole devoted himself to, and is likely to lecture upon in the future. All the lectures to the best of my knowledge are so to speak professorial. I have found myself, and I have also found on in(piiry from other people, that it is impossible to get the men to answer questions at anything like a catechetical lecture, if they come from all over the university. One can have a catechetical lecture with one’s own pupils, men who all know one another more or less, and who all know the lecturer, but if, as is sometimes the case, you have a lecture of 20 men Avith 12 or 13 colleges represented in it, they will not answer. It is useless to attempt it, and all the lectures, therefore, become practically professorial. 4511. {Chairman.) The tendency of your experi- ence would be, I suj)pose, to the conclusion that pro- fessorial lectures on any subject could not be conducted upon the catechetical principle ? — I do not say “ could not be.” I believe one professor in Oxford does succeed in doing it, but our experience certainly is that it is very difficult to Induce the men to answer questions. They listen, and they will take down notes to any extent, but they Avill not answer questions. 4512. Does anything depend, in that respect, upon the number of the class ? — I do not think so, unless it is a very small class. I am in the habit of lecturing upon one or two of the least popular subjects, and every now and then I get a very small class, and then I find that one gets to be more familiar Avith the men gradually. The essential cause, I think, of the suc- cess of our arrangement (and we all feel that it has been a great success) is that it leaves the personal control and superintendence of the man quite un- touched. Every lecturer is responsible for his own pupils, not only for advising them, but for examining them, and so forth : the lecturer very often sets a paper at the end of the term for his own j)upils and the men from other colleges Avho attend his lectures are at liberty to do that paper if they please. Some do, some do not ; it depends a good deal upon the arrangements of each college for examining at the end of the term. But the reason why Ave attach so much importance to this personal control is that Ave some of us feel, and I do feel very strongly, that a great deal depends upon the difference between first- class men and third-class men. The first-class men may derive an enormous amount of benefit from pro- fessorial lectures to help out their own reading. The inferior men Avill get very little benefit from sucb lectures unless they are, so to speak, clincheil to them by personal teaching and by Avriting ansAvers, in the first instance on the period of history that they have been lectured upon. If all men Avere lirst-class men, I think there Avould be very little need of such col- lege teaching ; and it seems to me that the mistake that people very often make in discussing the subject of university teaching is that they forget that essen- tial difference. It is only a small proportion of the N n 4 OXFORD. Rev. H. B. George, M.A. 3 Nov. 1877. 288 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: 5IINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. H. B. George, M.A. 3 Nov. 1877. men, one third perhaps, who are really the, better for the professorial leeture without anytliing else. 4513. We luulerstaiul then that the lower class of the men who attend those lectures appro.ximate to pass-men, and require some sort of i)ersoual super- vision ? — My own impression is that if you want to divide the men, from the point of view of eaj)acity for intellectual apprehension, the way to indicate it is to say that some of them are first-class men, many of whom do not get a first-class for one reason or other, and that the remainder are third-class men, some of whom rise to the second class, and some fall to the tourth class. And my own belief is very strongly that professorial lectures, high-class lectures, are good for the first-class men who can work for themselves without much supervision. As to the third-class men, they derive immense benefit from such lectures if supplemented by personal teaching ; they receive a mental stimulus which they would lose if they merely read text books. I suppose 1 ought to say a word or two to explain why it is that, as it seems to me, this combination has thoroughly succeeded with the Modern History School, and has not succeeded with any other. 4514. You do not think that the combined system has had equal success in any other branch ? — I cannot speak of the Theology School. I do not know what it has done with that ; but it certainly has had no such success w'ith any other. 4515. Take ancient history? — Ancient history being part of the Liter® Humaniores School, 1 was rather including that in the Liter® Humaniores. 4516. Has not the system succeeded in any branch of the Liter® Humaniores School ? — In no branch of the final schools, whether Liter® Huuianiures, matlie- matics, natural science, or anything else, has a combi- nation similar to this succeeded as yet ; and 1 think 1 can explain the reasons whv. As to the Liter® II umaniores School, the number of .students is so very large compared to any of the others, that each college or each group of colleges can aftbrd sufficient organisa- tion of its own, and therefore there is not .so much need of a combination which shall embrace the whole university. As regards lawq I think there are personal reasons. The teaching of natui-al science requires certain ai>[ahle of being made, and how you would meet them ? — 4he first is, that it might he thought that, considering the reduced value of money and the nature of the duties which devolve iq)on a canon professor of Christ Church, it is important to maintain the present higher endowment of canonries with a view to the interests of learning. I do not wish to give less than due weight to that consideration, hut it seems to me to he outweighed by the feelings which are provoked by the relatively larger endow- ments of the divinity [)rofessorships as compared with the non-theological professors of the university. This feeling is likely to gain strength as an increasingly large luimher of laymen unconnected with the church take up their residence liere m time to come. From a church and a conservative point of view the reduction of the income of the canonries after avoidance by their present holders in favour of the new professor- ship would seem to he advisable. The second question which might he asked is whether the necessary lectures on the Bible might not he given by the Regius or the Margaret Professor of Divinity without creating a new chair. Any such scheme would compromise the natural distribution of subjects among the members of the Divinity faculty, which I hope may be recog- nised more generally and more clearly hereafter than it has been in past times. It certainly appears to he most desirable in the interests of theological science to connect each chair with a particular department in Divinity. What the dej)artment assigned to each pro- fessor should he has been to a certain extent marked out by usage. For instance, the Regius Professor of Divinity should have in his charge the relations be- tween Religion, natural and revealed, and human knowledge and philosophy. In a word he would he responsible for the whole subject of lividcnces. Accordingly his would he the most difficult and the most honourable post in the theological professoriate. I do not say that the Regius Professors have always felt hound to correspond to ibis ideal. The Regius Professors have generally lectured on the subjects which they have felt themselves best able to deal with. The late Regius Professor, for instance, gave lectures which I believe were very highly valued, on Isaiah. The present Bishop of Chester lectured on the Prayer Book and its antiquities. Tlie present Regius Professor has shown that he more nearly corresponds to what I presume to he the ideal functions of the chair than anyone since Bishop Lloyd. Again, the Margaret Professor of Di\inity is practi- cally understood to he in charge of Christian doctrine. He lectures upon text hooks, such as Pearson on the Cre(.‘d ; hut his subject is as extensive as Christian doctrine. When he has dealt with Christian doctrine, first, with its history, and next with its structure and its internal priucii)les, and then, thirdly, with what jVeople now call comparative doctrine, that is to say, doctrine in its controversial as|iects, he will not have imuli time on his hands for Biblical Exegesis. F.cclcsiastical History speaks for itself. We ivant two professors of this subject. There always ought to he a reader attached to the Professorship of Ecclesiastical History. Ancient ecclesiastical history is an enormous subject, and modern ecclesiastical hi.--tory (wliich we are not entirely ])repared to resign to the Board of Studies in Modern History), ought to he in the hands of a theological profe.ssor. Pastoral theology, in the same way, has its own subject clearly marked out. There is the iiractical side of pastoral theology, how to manage parish schools, the composition and delivei'y of sermons, visiting the ])oor and the si ffi ; and as it is understood, there is its theoretical side (although here I think the professor has a great deal to do, some of which had better he left to other hands, hut I know that the present professor would not agree with me upon that point), liturgies and Christian ethics, and, within certain limits, canon and ecclesiastical law. ]My conclusion is that if the present professors dis- charge the duties assigned to them by the object of their chairs or by usage, there is no suflicient jiro- vision in the divinity facidty for the interpretation of scripture. Then, thirdly, ‘it may he asked whether the combined lecturers for our School of Theology do not satisfy the want in question. Here I am hound to speak with the greatest gratitude of the efforts which those gentlemen have made, unpaid and unrecognised, to supplement the work of my'chair. In April 1876 there were seven lecinres in In.ly scriptuie given by the combined tutors ; in .Tanuaiy 1877 there were six, and at this very time there are .six. These lecturers have however many other demands ujxm their time, and they are only able to bestow a certain amount of labour upon the prejiaration o(‘ their work. Moreover their labours are necessarily of uncertain duration. They have to lecture on other subjects as tutors at their respective colleges, and the lectures are accord- ingly liable to be interrupted. Our academical pro- vision for instruction in holy scripture ought to be independent of any sitch contingencies. 4.74.'3. {J)r. Jicl/a/iti/.) You mean that after lecturing for a time in holy scripture, he may be called upon to lecture upon some other subject ? — Yes ; his duties towards his college may rightly take precedence of those which are [uirely voluntary. A fourth objection is, that the existing want might be satisfied if my own chair were jiermanently endowed n ith a canonry at Rochester Cathedral, and thus placed iqion a new basis. 4.546. ( Prof. Smith.) May I ask why Rochester Cathedral is selected ? — It is understood that a canonry at Rochester which has hitherto been connected with the provostship of Oriel is now to be separated from it, and it would not be an improbable proposal that this canonry should be united to the Exegetical chair. 4517. {Chairman.) There is a special clause in the Act of Parliament upon that subject, is there not, namely, the 2.5th clause? — Yes; just before the Bill passed it was inserted. 4548. The section says, “ The canonry in the “ chapter of the cathedral church of Rochester which “ is now annexed to the provostshij) of Oriel College “ shall on a vacancy be severed therefrom,” and the Commissioners “ may also, with the concurrence of the “ Ecclesiastical Commissioners, provide that such “ canonry shall be thenceforth permanently annexed “ and united to some office or place of a theological “ or ecclesiastical character in or connected with the “ university of Oxford ” ; that is what you had in view? — Yes, that is what I had in view. .Speaking in this matter from exjierience, 1 should say that a second and distant centre of interest is not really favourable to the sustained and ccncentrated work which is wanted. If nothing better can be done for the subject, this arrangement will be hereafter an im- provement on the jiresent provisions for the subject. But it is desirable that the professor of the interpreta- tion of holy scripture should be endowed here in nNIVEIlSITi" OF OXFOUD CO.M.MISSION t .MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE. 208 Oxford witli ;ui Oxford canonry. Certainly at Cam- bridge tlie four divinity professors all iiold eanonries elsewhere; the Uegius Professor at Peterhoroiigli, Dr. Lightfoot at St. I’aid’s, Dr. Swainson at Ciiiehesler, and Dr. Perowne at Llandaff. The Cathedral Church of Oxford secures to us an advantage which it is well to make the most of. Lastly it is asked, what is to be done with the present Exegetieal chair. I pro})ose that my professorship should be made subordinate to that of the new Regius Professor. 454'9. What is the present endowment of yonr chair? — 81 !■/. 6s. (kZ. a year. When my predecessor resigned his oflice, he made an addition to the original endowment which had been 300/. a year. I would express the hope that out of gratitude to the memory of Dean Ireland his name should still be connected with the subordinate ehair. It would still be the Ireland readership or professorship. But the duties of the professor might be with advantage defined, as especially including biblical antiquities and textual criticism. For these subjects, so important to the interjiretation of holy scripture, there is at present no sufficient provision. i'550. Do you contem[)late that textual criticism should be united w'ith the chair of Interjiretation, or assigned as a special province to the reader ? — It should be assigned as a sj)ecial province to the reader if that designation should be substituted for professor or sub-professcr. 4.551. I think the Dean of Chicliester in a pamjihlet published by him has urged the want of some jirovision for that particular purpose? — Yes; I entirely agree with what he said ujum the subject. 4'.552. Those are the objections wdiich you foresee and your answers to them ? — Yes. 4.553. Are there other things which you think desiderata in the university connected w’ith this school ? — I hesitate to make projiosals which may be at once condemned as impracticable; but there are certainly some desiderata which 1 am glad to be allowed to state to your Lordship. And, first, a Pro- fessorship of Canon Law. In his letter to the Vice- Chancellor Professor Bryce states it as his opinion that such a professorship is desirable. At the Refor- mation it wars felt that the canon law wars intimately bound up with the system of the Roman Ckitholic Church, and it was abandoned as a subject of which it was not possible to make much. But it would have been better if canon law had been studied as it is studied, for instance, now in Germany. A critical study of it might show what elements in it are trace- able to the centralization of power Avlilch took place after the development of the Roman supremacy, and how much of it belongs to the original law of the primitive Christian Church. A reformed corpus juris canonici wmuld be in our present circumstances a very useful thing, but we have nothing of the kind. Pro- fessor Schulte of Prague has shown us within the last few years how to deal with the subject. He has proved that documents supposed to be documents of undoubted authority are really just as much forgeries as the Isidorian Decretals ; and that the amount of genuine primitive church law is very much less than had been supposed. 4.554. {Mr. Bernard.) If any person would write a useful book iqron the subject, do you not think that that would be enough v ithout having a professor to teach the subject ? — No. A professor brings the sub- ject before successive generations of undergraduates and graduates. A book is written and it is read, and then it is laid by, whereas a professor is a living wit- ness to the importance of the subject. 4555. Do you think it verv im])ortant to bring this subject before successive generations of under- graduates? — Ido. I do think that we have lost a great deal by forgetting it. The i)ractical effect, if I might be allowed to say so, of our forgetting it has been this; — it is supposed that an honest study of church law necessarily tells in the interest of the Church of Rome, by a large number of young men who are not acquainted with the real facts of the OXFORD. subject. If . 717 P 4556. (Chairman.) Do you know whether any , L . . ^ , 1 II- 11 - -.1 • • . .1 JAdaon, JJ.JJ. writer has addresseti himsell with precision to the inquiry what portions of the Roman canon law had 3 y^v. 1877. actually been received and adopted as ecclesiastical law in this kingdom before the reign of Ileniy VIII. ? ^ — No ; we have had great collectors of materials, Wilkins, Jolnwon, Gibson, but no critical analysts. 4557 . Is not it a question of some pra tical im- jrortance, having regard to the state of our statute law at and since the time of the Reformalion upon that subject ? — Certainly. 4558. {Prof. Smith.) Do you think it would be easy to find a man fitted for such a professorship ? — I should certainly think that it would not be dilficult. The professor would naturally be a lawyer or a lay- man. But the establishment of the chair would not be without theological importance, supposing it to be worked in a thorough and religious spirit. 4559. If you could not have a professorship, would you think it of any use if you were able to have an occasional readership from time to time on the subject? — Yes, I should be very grateful indeed for that. 4560. {Chairman.) The next subject that you have noted down as desirable is a Professorship of Christian Ethics ? — A professorship or readership in Christian Ethics is much wanted. What I mean by Christian Ethics would be best illustrated by Professor Harless’ work on the subject; he was, until lately, at the head of the Piotestant Theological faculty at IMunich. Christian ethics can be treated as fully and systema- tically as Christian doctrine. I believe that such a readership or professorship would be of much value, partly as supplementing the chair of IMoral Philosojihy that wc have already in the university, and also as telling very favourably indeed iqion the practical value of sermons throughout the country. People often complain of the way in which the moral and practical elements in preaching are lost sight of, and that young clergymen and old clergymen are entirely absorbed by controversies about Christian doctrine. If this is a justifiable subject of complaint it is partly to be accounted for by the absence of any systematic effort to teach the ethical side of christi.lnit}^ 4561. Do you consider that subject to be at jiresent included theoretically or practically in the Professorship of Pastoral Theology ? — Yes, certainly ; the present Professor of Pastoral Theology would say that he is responsible for it. I have no doubt whatever that the present professor does deal with it, at any rate within certain limits, with very great success ; but my belief is that the subject is really too vast to allow of being treated incidentally by a professor who has so much besides to attend to. 4562. {Prof. Smith.) Would not the suggestion of a chair of Christian Ethics suggest the idea of a chair of casuistry, and would not that idea be very repul- sive ? — That depends upon the way in which the subject is treated. In Professor Harless’ book, there is very little “ Casuistry.” Casuistry is not always bad nor always avoidable. Usum non tollit ahusns. Casu- istry is one thing in the hands ofBishoj) Sanderson and another in the hands of Escobar. Nothing is gained by abandoning these subjects because they have been abused by others. We only hand over large districts of thought to writers in the Church of Rome, and it is supposed that we do not deal with them because we are afraid of them. The wiser course would be to .do what we can with them. 4563. Would a chair of Christian Ethics be neces- sarily a clerical one in your view ? — I should have supposed that it would naturally be a clerical one. 4564. {Mr. Bernard.) I siqipose that Professors of Moral Philosophy for the most part concern them- selves more with deontology than they do with ethics ? — Certainly. 4565. Do you think that they necessarily must or ought to do so ? — No, I do not. But even if they concerned themselves more exclusively with ethics O 0 3 OXFORD. Rev. H. P. Liddmi, D.D. 3 iJuv. 1877. 2i)-i UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. proj)er than they do, there still would be room tor the scientific treatment of the distinctively evangelical morality. An ordinary Professor of Morals in Oxford would scarcely venture to insist upon those aspects of morality which are taught us in the Sermon on the Mount, or to discuss the jiractical difficulties which may at once occur to any ordinary reader in thinking them over. 4566. M e have had questions of that kind treated recently in some of the productions of the Uegius Professor of Divinity, have we not, with some advantage ? — Yes, certainly. 4567. {Prof. Siiiifli.) Is not the university pulpit the proper place after all for such discourses as one might hope would he given by a Professor of Christian Ethics ? — The sermon and the professorial lecture are distinct methods of dealing with the subject. The sermon is largely emotional and rhetorical ; the lecture is scientific. If the university pulpit is the projier place for dealing with Christian Ethics in a hortatory way, i twould certainly be desirable that before an ap]ieal was made to conscience in the pulpit, the demands of the understanding should be patiently considered in the lecture room. 4568. Is not that mode of treatment often adopted at present in the university sermons ? — Very often the university preacher has to attempt the work of a lecturer on Christian Ethics, because he feels that it is not done elsewhere. But supposing that the scientific treatment of Christian morality were better jirovided for, a preacher would he more at liberty to make his pulpit ministrations more distinctly practical and hortatory than is often now the case. 4569. {Chairman.') What have you to say on the next point that you have noted, as to liturgies ? — It seems to me that we want a reader in liturgies. I am bound to add that the Professor of Pastoral Theology with whom I have talked the subject over, is strongly of opinion that liturgical literature ought always to be dealt wiili by himself and his successors. The subject is one which requires a great deal of labour. At |)resent there is no edition of the Liturgies of the Ancient Church which is critically trustworthy. The editions of the primitive liturgies we have to put into the hands of young men, are so interpolated that they cannot be made the basis of inferences as to what was the devotional language of the church in the periods which they appear to represent. As yet no critical text of the liturgies has been published. Short of this a great deal has been done by' the late Dr. Neale and others, to create interest in the early forms of Christian worship ; but the subject is really a large one, and ^vould quite take up the attention of a theological reader. Of course such a reader or pro- fessor would also deal with the archaeology of the Prayer Book. I had supposed that it would be better that the Professor of Pastoral Theology should deal with the Prayer Book only or chiefly on its pastoral side, as it apj>eals to the spiritual life of the people, without discussing the materials of which upon analysis it is found to be composed. However, I am bound to say that Dr. King thinks it desirable that liturgies should be left to the Professor of Pastoral Theology, and the reason which he gives me is that it is desirable that the Pastoral Theology chair should have some distinct point of contact with the literary and scientific aspects of theology', and that this was the best way of securing it. 4570. {Prof. Smith.) Do you not think yourself that the view which has been expressed by Dr. King is of great importance, and that whether the liturgies are or are not to be assigned to the chair, it would hardly he desirable to let its duties relate exclusively to instruction in practical matters ; do y'ou think that such a complete separation is desirable ? — There is much to be said in favour of that view. But one subject which hi' is responsible for appears to me to be so exacting that I can scarcely suj)j)ose him to have time for this ; I mean the composition and |)reparation of sermons. This, 1 believe, -.vas the main object for which his chair was founded. All over the country peojile are asking why the universities do not prepare young clergymen for that portion of their duties better than they' do. 'fhe Pastoral Pro- lessor already has a great amount of work on his hands, and liturgies, to he ilealt with thoroughly, would take a man's whole time. 4571. I would not insist upon the liturgies being assigned to the Begins Professor of Pastoral Theology, but 1 would put to you the consideration that a di- vorce between tlu' learned side of the clerical calling and the purely pastoral side of it would be very much to be lamented ; and I would ask you whether it does not appear to you that you would be promoting such a separation if you were to mark it in the work of the Begins Professor of Pastoral Theology ? — That danger, as it a[)i>ears to me, might be averted by an adequate treatment of homiletics. A Pastoral Professor who should deal with homiletics at all thoroughly would necessarily give his chair a very litei'ary aspect. In other parts of Europe a chair of homiletics has produced works of great literary value. I should not doubt that in Dr. King’s hands after tiie lapse of some years, if he is sjtared, this one depart- ment of his duties will result in a work which will ])lace him before the ey'es of the university iti a light certain to command rc.spect on literary grounds. But considering his opinion upon the subject, I have no wish to maintain my own in opposition to it. 4572. {Chairman.) You have also noted down the subject of Syriac and Rabbinical Hebrew as one to be considered .''—There are two Arabic chairs in the university. One of them, as your Lordshijj knows, is at present vacant, and I certainly wish that one of those two chairs could be approjtriated to the study of Syriac. Syriac has a very distinct hearing upon my own subject. The Peshito version of the New I'esta- ment, or at any rate portions of it, are the earliest translation of the New Testament into any other language; and a more thorough study of it would probably lead to important results res[)ecting the Greek text. The latest text that we have of the Peshito was formed in tlie last century. Practically, Syriac is more important than Arabic; Arabic may have a higher philological interest, but it contributes very little to Sacred litei'ature. Syriac is the language, not merely of the Peshito version, but of the Philoxenian, and of gi'eat Christian writers like Ephrem Syrus. Professor Gandell has leihured on Syriac ; but a more permanent and conspicuous pro- vision for the subject is desirable. As to the other suggeslion which your Lordship mentioned with regard to the Rabbinical Hebrew, Dr. Pusey would speak of it better than 1 could. But it is an important department of Biblical literature entirely unprovided for in Oxford at ]>resent ; atid amongst the residents there is more than one man who might fill the chair with advantage. 4573. I think you have another point, about the need of lecture rooms? — We have at present no Common Divinity lecture room. I have commonly lectured in a room in the Clarendon which is used by professors in other subjects. Sometimes we are a good deal inconvenienced for want of space. The fittings up of the room are not convenient. I should propose that the Divinity School which historically and traditionally belongs to the subject, might be used as a lecture room for the Theological professors. I believe there are acoustic difficulties coTinected with that room, but I believe they might be remedied witli a little care. 4574. {Mr. Bernard.) Perhaps you are aware that the Bodleian curators have a great desire to use that room for the purposes of the library ? — I had heard the subject mentioned, but I did not know how far any sucli proposal might have taken shape. 4575. {Prof. Smith.) A'ou have adverted to the position of the combined lecturers who give lectures with reference to the Honour School of Theology ; does their iiosition with regard to their colleges differ in any way from that of (he lecturers who give combined lectures with refeience to the other Honour schools UNIVERSITY OF OXFOEO COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 205 in the university; T ask the question because in some- thing w hieli fell from you I uiulerstood you to imply that there was some (lllference ? — Xo. I speak under correction, but in all cases 1 imagine that a man’s taking part in the combined lectures would be subject to a liability to be interrupted in his work by the claims of his college. Ilis college uoultl have a ! rst claim upon him; and my argument was that it is desirable that instruction in holy scripture should be more continuous than can be assumed to be always the case in the combined scheme. 4,57(). Hut the Honour School of 'rheology is under no special disadvantage in that respect, is it, as com- pared with any other school ? — No, not in that respect. But theological work has less encourage- ment in the university at large, and is less recognised by the colleges than other work, and so a man who takes part in a combined scheme of theological lectures, has sometimes to make an effort which has no conne.xion with his w'ork as a tutor of his college. In tiiis respect he is at a disadvantage as compared with a “ combined lecturer ” on some other subjects ; and he may well find 't more difficult to unite con- scientious work for his college })upils, with the pre[)aration which is needed for lecturing in a com- bined scheme. 4577. (Dr. BeUannj.') iVIany of them are college tutors, are they not? — Yes, nearly all of them. The witness withdrew. OXFORD. Rev. H. r. Liddon, 1). D. 3 Nov. 1877. The Rev. Eowakd Bouvekie Pusey, D.D, 4578. ( ChdinnaH.) We understand that you are prepared to give us your opinion on the question of having a Regius Professor of Exegesis in a position different from that of the present holder of the chair ? — I ought to say that I am speaking here only for myself. 1 had not previously consulted any^ of the other professors, exce|>ting that I mentioned to Dr. Liddon what I was going to propose, bei ause what 1 projiosed woidd not affect them while they held their chairs. When the Vice-Chancellor asked us the question what our w'ants were, we said of course none, and that on the ground that we are the only well-endowed body of |)rofessors in the university, and with our income, which is altogether 7,800/. a year, we certainly could not come ujion the uni- versity for anything. Another ground was that we could not tell wliat the future wants woidd he, because the 'rheological School was quite a new' foundation, and we did not know in the least Avhat its course would he. I understand from one of the examiners that the candidates for that .‘chool are of two classes, and each class is subdivided. There arc those who give two years, and those are the bond fide students, who really wish to gain solid know- ledge. Another class consists of those who wish to avoid the irksomeness of the pass school, which has been increased a good deal of late, and who hope to avoid it by getting a low honour. 'Fhen there was another class who stopped with us for only one year. Some of those did so in order to take advantage of a recent regulation of the univeisity, that if a person has an honaur in one school he may Inve four terms more for his final school, and consecpiently that he may have five years instead of four. They had good talents, knew very little of theology, and had no interest in it, but hoped that they should be able, with very little e.xertion, to get through the school, and so get five years for that in which their interest lay. 'The other division of those who have only one- year are those who cannot get through their modera- tions until their eighth term, and yet wish to pass in their twelfth, and consequently they come on the chance of getting a low honour in it. 'fhen of course it vvas doubtful what the bisl ops would do, and what encouragements they would give the school. If they encouraged it, we might have in that school those who were going into holy orders in the university; but \ve were altogether ignorant of what the future would be. 'fhen we were actually well provided for, for the time at least, with one exception; we were so well endowed that we could easily aft' rd to have deputies, such as I have had myself since 1830. 'fhe professors were ready and able to have deputies. Only Dean Ireland’s professor could not do this, as his foundation was so ill-endowed. It has, in fact, been endowed by other offices held with it. As soon as it was created the Provost of Oriel offered to take the chair. fhen the late Master of Balliol College was endowed by his Headship, and when he vacated it it was offered to the ]>resent holder, who was endowed with a canoniy of St. Paul’s; but this need of an endowment ah extra limits the choice permanently, 'fhe increase of the endowment had been refused in the Hebdomadal Council, that is to say, they had refused to bring it (Regius Professor of Hebrew), examined. before the university, on the ground that Divinity was already endowed enough. Then another difficulty which we had was the difficulty of asking the head of the faculty to take a definite subject, contrary to the traditional freeilom of the Regius I’rofessor of Divinity. For of old there were only two professors for the whole range of subjects excejjt Hebrew, and so the Regius Professor was obliged to teach everything ex- cept doctrinal theology, whi(4i was by custom assigned to the Margaret Professor. 1 remember that Bishop Lloyd had a sort of select class, who attended him for several years, and I recollect that in my time he lectured in Exegesis, in Liturgies, in the history of the period between the Old and the New 'festament, and in Apologetics, as far as the Old Testament was con- cerned. I mean that he lectured in those four diffe- rent subjects, 'fhe Regius Professors, I suppose, thought it an advantage that whoever shouhl be appointed Regius Professor might have fhe liberty to choose whatever his own predominant taste might be. But there were two studies which were unjirovided for, either Ajiologetics or the higher sort of Exe- gesis. If one of these subjects were assigned to the Regius Professor of Di\ inity, the other niighf, he assigned to a new jirofessor, who might be endowed out of the superfluous income of the other chairs, 'fhose [irofessors who need deputies might retain enough to remunerate them and yet contribute towards the income of the new chair. If the Regius Professor should have Apologetics allotted to him, according to his talents or his particular gifts it might come under three classes. In this case it would not undul}^ limit the Crown in the appointment of the chair ; for the professor might take any one of the three subjects and give the others to his deputy. I think one of the three subjects might be the conne.xion of philosojahy a.id revelation. I do not know on which side he lectures, but Schlottman of Halle takes that as the .subject of liis lecture. Or he might take the Life of Our Lord, as is done in, I think, four universities, and ( f course that would be eminently Apologetic. Or he might lecture with a view to show the early date of the Canon. As it is, the Regius Professor does not lecture in the New 'festament, his only fixed subjects are twelve lectures in what might be called the Encyclopaidia. This leaves our lectures on the New 'festament very ill-provided. Our whole number of teachers, compared to those of the German universities, is small. I have looked at and ana- lysed the summary of 12 of the German universities to ascertain how many professors or teachers they had in all, and how many lectui'es in the New 'festa- ment these gave, 'fhose which I selected were the universities of Berlin, Ronn, Erlangen, Gottingen, Halle, Heidelberg, Jena, Khnigsberg, Leipzig ; 'fiibin- gen, which has two faculties. Evangelical and Catholic; Breslau, which has two, and Strassburg. I took sepa- rately how many Ordinary Professors and hou' many assistants there were. 1 found that they varied, 'fhree universities had seven, four had six, seven had five, and one had four pi ofessors ; but they had also Honorary Professors and Extraordinary Pro- fessors, and they had Docents, and so far as I could make out the Docents were not simply young men, Oof Rev. E. B. Pusey, D.l). 296 UNIVERSITr OF OXFORO COISlMISSIOX : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Ilcv. E. B. Pusey, 1). V. .T Nov. 1877. tlicy might be 30 or 40, but some of them remained Docents all tlieir life, so far as I could sec. Tims, including those other classes, one university had 14 teachers in Divinity; another 13; another 12; two had 10; five had nine; tlirce had eight; and two had only six. Tliese, I observed, had no relation to the numbers of the theological students. Heidel- berg has nine teachers and only nine theological students. They wished to maintain the faculty, hut I suppose Sehenkel had driven away the theological students, for I have understood that they had only a few Germans, reinforced by a few Pre.«byterians fi om Scotland ; yet they thought it necessary to keep up the staff. The couises of lectures on the New 'I'estament were for the most part delivered on five days in a week; Leipzig had seven such courses, Halle had six, Erlangen, Jena, and Heidelberg five, Bonn and Giittingen had four, Tiibingen and Breslau had two. But really good lecturing must be slow. 'I'he object of such teaching as we can give in two years is rather to lay a good fountlatior, and to teach them how to study solidly by themselves. I think we had better teach them a little well, ihan a great deal indifferently. When Bishop Lloyd began lecturing us on the Romans he occupied the first lecture with the first four verses, and of course that gave us a ver}' different idea of reading the New 'I'estament from any that we had had before. And so I have heard some mention that the ]>rescnt Dean of Ro(4iester, Dean Scott, had students to whom the nhole way of reading the New 'I'estament was changed by reading Avith him. But then since each can I'ead but a little, avc want more lecturers. If Ave are to have any r umber of students, and theology be- comes a real study, Ave shall Avant subordinate chairs ; I should think one at least of Apologetics, as well as Dogmatics and Ecclesiastical History and my OAvn, 'I'hen the Avay in Avhich I proj)ose to provide for that Avould be this ; adding together the income of five canenries held by the present ])ro'essors at 1,500/. a year, and a sixth at 1,-00/., 300/. being tleducted for the Archdeacon of Buckingham ; that Avould make 8,700/. Supposing then that a new Regius Professorship Avere created at 1,000/. a year, and the other Begins I’lofessorships also made 1,000/., there Avould be seven canonries at 1,000/., making 7,000/. a year, Avhich Avould leave 1,700/. a year to be dis- posed of amongst the deputies, avIio then Avould have about 422/. each ; or if the Regius Professorships should have 1,100/. a year, that Avould leave 1,000/. a year, that is to say, 2.50/. for each reader. 4,570. What do you projiose to do Avith the endoAv- ment of the present professor ? — 'The present Income of the theological professors avIio are Canons of Christ Church being 1,500/. a year, if their income should be fixed at 1,000/., the surplus of those Avho need deputies Avo'dd partly go to the payment of those deputies, partly to jArovide the income of the ncAv chair of Exegesis; and since the iieAv chair of Exegesis Avould only have 1,000/. a year, he Avould have no surplus out of Avhich to pay Ins deputy, and the Dean Ireland Professor might be for the future a subordinate reader, having much the same income as the four deputies at 250/. a year each. 4580. With regard to the other professorship of Heine w, it has lieen suggested that a second HebrcAv professorshii> Avith a vieAv exclusively philological sh.ould be constituted, Avhat are your vieAvs about that? — 'i'here are tAvo pro[)osals of that sort Avhich I became acquainted with as a member of the Council. One Avas a suggestion by Professor i\Iax IM idler, Avhich A’, as timt it sdiould be a chair of comparative philology of Semitic. With regard to that, I said that tlmt Avas done already. I mean that since my great jiredecessor Dr. Pocock and subsequently the labours of this study have been carried on by every IlebreAv Professor everyAvhere, so that the comj)a- rative philology of the Semitic has been carried on by those Avho have held my chair, and the extent of the knoAvledge is most complete, except I am sorry to say as to the (piality of the knoAvledge of some of the languages compared ; but the absolute knowledge Avhether a certain llebrcAv Avord oecurs, Ave Avill say only in Arabic, or only in Aramaic, or both in -Arabic and in Aramaic, or any possible combinations of them, including Samaritan, Avhich Avas ))robablv a Chaldee dialect, and Ethiopic, and even IMaltesc, is complete ; so that Ave know exactly Avhether any IlebreAv Avord occurs in one, fAvo, or three of them, or, in some fcAv cases, all of them. 'I'liere is, then, absolutely nothing to be done in that respect, exce])t, I am sorry to say, that a better knoAvledge of Arabic and Syriac is Avanted ; Chaldee is avcII knoAvn. 'The ground of the confusion Avas that Avhen lexicographers translated from the Arabic Lexica, tbey gave perhaps two or more Latin equivalents, and as Arabic is an exceed- ingly special language, those aaIio used that Latin Lexicon took out of the complex meanings perhaps the Avrong one ; but that has been a great deal remedied by the Avorks of tAvo Englishmen, by Dr. Payne Smith’s Syriac Lexicon, and Inane’s Arabic Lexicon, and they are complete so far as they are yet published, so that nobody can make the blunders Avhich they did formerly. 'The uncertainty aaois so great that if I Avante{l to knoAv the exact meaning of a specific .Syriac Avord I had to go to consult the Syro-Arabic Lexica in the Bodleian, because I could not in the least determine Avhich of alleged meanings \re were to take. There is there a complete com- parison of llebrcAv Avith the other languages, not of those other langi.vages among themselves. Professor lTe}'tag told me that aa hen he Avas forming his Arabic Lexicon he Avas asked to bring in a comparison of liebrcAv, and he said, “ No ; Hebrenv having only “ a small literature Ave are obliged to have recourse “ to other languages ; but Arabic has a full litera- “ ture, and therefore Ave do not Avant any assistance “ from the IlebreAv.” Not only the Semitic but even the Indo-Gcrmanic languages have been compared mere or less. With regard to the other proposal, there are no tAvo A\a}'S of teaching HehreAv. Each professor, if there Avere tAvo, must lecture in precisely the same Avay and use e.xactly the same means of knoAving the language. 'I'hose means Avould be of course the use of words in different parts of the Bible ; then there is the traditional knoAAledge, partly through versions and jAartly through the Rabbis, either in their Commen- taries or in their Lexica, and the Post Hiblical IlebreAv; and then, lastly, the cognate dialects. Any HebreAv Professor Avould have more or less knoAvledge of all of them, he could not lecture without them ; and since the fashion has been I think rather to exaggerate the value of cognate dialects, I have in lecturing often been obliged to say, “ After all, this is a matter of comparative philologjg” because Ave are more certain in our knoAvledge of a IlebrcAv AAmrd from the Hebrew itself than we are of its connexion with these cognate dialects. Plvtry word in all those lan- guages Avhich could be got by either possible or im- possible connexions, has been already compared, so that there is nothing to be added to our philological knoAvledge. 'fhen they say that one might comment theologically and another philologically. 'I'he ansAA’er is, that both parties must lecture ])hilologically and both parties must lecture theologically, since your only book is a sacred book. You may lecture with a prejudice I'or it as Avell as Avith a prejudice against it ; but prejudice and prepossession must be on either side, or convietion on either side. Of coarse it would be absolutely impossible to lecture on the 53rd cha[)ter of Isaiah or on the 22nd Psalm philologically alone ; Ave must lecture theologically too ; as for instance Avhether a AVord is to be translated ‘‘pierced,” or Avhether it is to be translated “like a lion,” Ave shouhl have to use precisely the same means, and it would be the same ([uestion, both of philology and of grammar. If the lecturer Avere anti-theo- logical, he Avould have a bias one Avay, and if he Avere tlieological he might have a bias the other Avay, but you cannot avoid it. It Avould be the driest ])ossible, or almost inqiossible, Avay of lecturing, to translate the Avords Avoid by AVord Avithout any UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD CJOMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 2'J7 iii(or<-sl. OIK! w:iy or (lio otiior. There is a deep saying ol' Sclih'iermacher tliaf a conlinued stmly of the Hihle witlioiit a religions interest was (juite impos- sible, unless it were an ihteresi against it. When I was in Germany, 1 heard some jirofessors because 1 wished to understam] their theology- Lichhorn of Gottingen was a philological (irofessor ; Hengsten- berg of Berlin, a theological. Their lectures were very opposite, but they used precisely the same means of coming to the result. Eichhorn had then a great reputation for acuteness, but was profane. I asked a theological student whether he was going down, the term being nearly over. He said, no, he should wait until the history of Balaam came on, because it was such fun. This I heard with my own ears, and I heard the lecture, and I heard a titter going through all the room, and I saw only one person who was grave, and I happened to sit where 1 could .see the whole of them. There was another very eminent professor of Hebrew, who was .said to have been admonished by his Government for his profane mode of lecturiiur. However, I only heard it privately, and I will not mention his name. Then on the other hand, I may say that at Oxford there are not students enough for the two chairs, so that it would be simply a waste. In Hebrew we are circumstanced differently from Germany because there all the theo- logical students are taught Hebrew before they come up to the university, and consequently the Hebrew Professor bas at once a whole class who can enter into any philological teaching; whereas in England there is only one school which teaches it, so that students have to begin at the university, unless we have some from the Merchant Taylors’ School or from Scotland. In Scotland they used to teach them to trans- late Hebrew, but it is not so in this country. Hence my deputy Professor Gandell, who kindly lectures for me, teaches from the alphabet every term in order to gain anybody that he can ; but considering how the studies are divided there must always, be a very limited number which could study Hebrew. Eormerly it used to be rather the exclusive study of those who did study it, as Dr. Payne Smith, and others ; but now I find that even the opinion of students in the Theological School is rather against any higher Hebrew, for they say that a person cannot go on beyond a certain extent in Hebrew without endanger- ing his knowledge of other subjects. Pupils have said to me, “ 1 am sorry I cannot go on with “ Hebrew, for if I go on with Hebrew I shall not be “ able to pass in the other sulijects which I have “ to bring up for my school.” I may add that by the Laudian statutes the Kegius Professor is especially directed to philology. It is provided there, “esacris “ fontibus (pia3cunque ad illius lingua3 gramniaticam “ et sermonis proprietatem pertinent explicabit.” So we have already a professor, who is bound to teach philologically. 4581. Do you think that a readership might be useful in Post Biblical Hebrew or Talmudic ? — In Germany I think two or three universities at most have such a lecturer. On the other hand, in Cambridge they have a reader, and there woidd be most ample work for him to do here; because I suppose that we ha\e the best collection of Hebrew books and manuscrijits almost in the world, and having the Oppenheim and the Michael collections the ipiantity of manuscripts which we have is enormous. So that he might make his office of very great use ajiart from the actual teach- ing of those whom he had to teach. His teaching would fill up a gap, because if a person makes Hebrew a speciality he ought to be able to read at least Rabbinic fluently. The Hebrew. Professor has no time to teach Rabbinic. 4582. There are some of the Theological chairs which have no definite subjects assigned to them now, are there not ? — Y’es. -1583. What chairs have you in view ? — The chairs of Ecclesiastical History and Pastoral Theology, as well as my owe,, have definite subjects as.signed to them. 'fhe Regius Profes.sorshij) of Divinity and Q 6223. the Margaret Professorship have none assigned to them. 4584. You think it would be desirable to assign subjects to those two chairs? — Y'es ; as 1 said, Apologetics to ihe one, and to make the other no longer optional, but to a.ssign Dogmatics to the Margaret Professor. 4585. Now, we may pass to more general subjects. You think there are various causes which jilace the study of professional subjects at a disadvantage ? -—Yes. I mentioned that there were four, and two of them work into one another. The difference of age at which persons come to the university now compared with what they did formerly is one. The late Commission made the limit of age for competing for scholarships 19. That being so, I tiave understood that if persons competed for scholarships and gained them before the age of 19, they went back to their schools until they were 19. Otherwise you would have had a promising young man of 18 competing all along with those who were a year older than himself; so that that has brought about a habit of coming to the university a good deal later. Thirty years ago, as well as in my own time, the age for coming up was 17 to 18. Now it is generally 19. That would not have any injurious effect on the professional subjects if they were content with one year’s study of classics, and so went to the other subjects as soon as they passed moderations ; but partly because of the tradition of going on with the Litene Humaniores, and partly because fellowships are given almost exclusively to the Literm Humaniores, this study has been prolonged as much as possible ; so that, whereas in my time, and I believe long afterwards, we hail finished our course at 21, now four years from 19 would bring it to 23, and if they obtain a low class in some other school, which they may, that brings it to 24, for they may have of this simply jrrelinunary study five years ; so that it jostles out the other studies which are to be the occupation of a person’s life. Then with regard to the other point of fellowships being mostly given to the Litera; Humaniores, I observe that in 1872 there were nine who obtained fellowships out of 20 who got first classes ; in 1873, there were 10 out of 19 ; and in 1874, there were 9 out of 16 ; so that tliey Avere continually increasing. In the meanwhile Jurisprudence and natural science had none and theology had one ; so of course there Avas an immense bonus to prolong the study of Litera; Humaniores as long as possible. 1 remember that it Avas very difficult to explain to the German professors, Avhen they Avere less acquainted with us than they are now, Avhat our university Avas, and the only explanation that I could give them Avas that it Avas a study of arts, Avhich Avas preparatoiy to anything else, becatise Ave had no other schools then. Of course in theology Ave had an advantage, because Ave had the Sunday if Ave liked to employe it in its study, and a good many did so employ it ; but I said that Ave Avere a practical people, and that laAv Avas studied in chamber.s, and medicine Avas studied in AAalking the hospitals, and theology Avas .studied in curacies, d'his of course has been an excessive dis- advamtage. I think ii, AA'as in Dr. Jeune's Vice-Chan- cellorship, Avhich Avas betAveen 1858 and 1860, that he wrote to a good many of the chief legal authorities at the time, and they mentioned the great advantage of having a resident study of kuv, and they said iliat it might have a very good effect both on the legislature and on the courts, Avhich of cour.so it is not my busi- ness to speak of. But in theology it has been exceed- ingly disappointing to nie to find as a body hoAv in- accurate and ill-informed our clergymen sometimes are. I remember, as one instance. Bishop Forbes thought Ave sh.udd have an end of the Roman con- troversy, now that Ave had the Vatican decree, because people might sec hoAV it contradicted all the ancient history of the church. But avc find praclic.tlly that people do not knoAv enough of the ancient history of the church to see any difficulty in the matter. In.stead of laying a solid foundation here, it is like building on a heap of stones instead of on a foundation. If thev Rp OXFORD. Jiev. E. B. Pusey, D.D. 3 Nov. 1877- 298 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Jicv. E. B. Pusey, JJ.D. 3 Nov. 1877. had laid a foundation here they could have continued the study in their curacies ; but they never have laid such a foundation. 1 once said to a person, If you had spent as much time on the fathers as you do on reviews you might by this time have been a very good patristic scholar. If the introductory studies were closed at 21, there would be room for two years' study of Theology before the age of Deacon’s orders ; now very few give more than one, some none. 4586. You also notice the shortness of the term of residence ? — Yes. It is not known generally how much longer our statutable re.sidence is than our actual residence. People are here very well content if they get six months in the year, eight weeks in each term. The length of the Lent and Easter terms varies relatively, but in the last two years, if you counted the statutable terms day by day, you would have eight months and a few days ; now we have six months instead of eight. Then even this short period is re- duced to many of us ; I cannot say exactly, because although the colleges meet at the same time, they do not, I believe, disperse at the same time, and the time cut off by the examinations is the latter part. My estimate is grounded on the returns which Professor Gaudell makes of the lectures which he gives for me, and I think that of the eight weeks, during three and a half his classes were diminished by one half. He teaches them very accurately, and the students attend the lectures with a great deal of interest, but after five weeks half are gone ; so that out of those three terms of 24 weeks nine are to be deducted for the examinations, at least with respect to a great number of the students. 4587. I think the next point which you have put down relates to the provision of some building for un- attached students? — Of course that is an exceedingly delicate and almost impossible subject to speak of. I got a good deal of information before the present plan was adopted, but since the plan relates to actual living men and woman, one cannot speak in detail upon the subject, one must go entirely upon the abstract question. The system of unattached students was forced upon us by Parliament; it was said to us that if we did not do it for ourseves it should be done for us, and therefore those who before opposed it accepted it on the ground that if we did it ourselves and if it did not answer we could change it, but if Parlia- ment did it for us we could not change it. I have not been able to ascertain what proportion the students belonging to colleges who are in lodgings bear to the unattached students. The unattached students are 243. I thought that those belonging to colleges who lodge in the town were as many more. The whole of the undergraduates are 2,590. I thought that one fifth of them at the most would be in lodgings. If I hear rightly that the whole are 800, one third of them are in lodgings. If that be the case cui hono the colleges ? Either all the founders and all the builders of our colleges have made a great mistake or we are making a great mistake now, because the manners and morals are certainly not better now than they were when they founded those colleges, or when they built those colleges, and they had that especially as one of the objects in ^ievv. I remember in the Oriel College statutes it was. Let everything, as far as possible, juer mares. It would not be proverbial, soli/s cum sola, unless there u^as a great deal in it, and yet the young men must be more or less familiarly waited upon by domestics, and of course a certain degree of intercourse woidd be necessary not to be uncourteous. You could not let a })erson come into the room and say nothing. There is also a disad- vantage about the class of servants, because the servants are only terminal servants at each place. Since our vacations are one half of the year, for the most part they are not the higher sort of maidservant, because if they could get any place elsewhere they wouh’ not take service in a lodging-house. It is said that there has not been any immoralit}'. I should be glad to think that there had not. 1 have no ground to think tliat there has been except human nature, but all the evidence which the curators of them can have relates to what passes without, but the special danger is that which is iu the house, which nobody knows anything about. I do not say that there is immorality, but I say also that there is no evidence that there is not. Then the object of the unattached students was not as an experiment for spreading them about, as in the early ages, but to make living at cheai) as they could, and they have a good deal of disadvantage in consequence. Some of them, I hear, have got a club, but a club for 243 would be rather a large concern. I should have thought that if the object was cheap- ness, the university out of its revenues might build houses and keep them under charge, as they ha\x’, 1 think, at one at least of the German universiti(>s, where they have a building for select students, in which no rent is charged for the rooms, and I think that it would be money exceedingly well employed, or if even there were a slight payment, differing in amount according to the did’erent storeys of the buildings, you migiit have rooms which were very cheap for those who were poorest, and I have not the slightest erso)i may write a book against the truth of Christianity, or a book against our own church ; and there is nothing whatever to prevent his being one of the residents wdio are to influence our young men. Nobody can say anything about it. He has as perfect a right to teach atheism as we have to teach Chris- tianity. Therefore it is not a mere question as to clerical studentships or not ; but it is a question of Christianity, or certainly possible infidelity, and of course there would be no reason whatever why a .Mohammedan should not be one of our resident teachers, or a Euddhist, or a Parsec, or, in fact, any other religion. 4590. W'ould you see any objection to our own fellow-subjects who are the adherents of those reli- gions being admitted to benefit by the emoluments of the university P — lam not making any objection whatever, i am only stating the fact. On the ground that you have put it would be desirable, of course. All that I object to is his being a teacher. Of course they may have this Indian institute which is talked of, but I do not see any reason why the value of any number of fellowiships should not be assigned to the institute. I only object to a heathen being the teacher of our young men. 4591. ( Chairman.) Will ymii now pass to the sub- ject of oriental jrrofessorships ? — About that all that occurs to me is to compare them with wdiat the lectures in Germany wawe, because until it is settled w'hether or not the civil service candidates are to reside for three years, I could not give any opinion. If they were to reside for two years, I should think that the less they meddled with the more difficult languages the better. The most difficult language which I know is Arabic, and I was told by Professor Wilson, who was a first-rate scliolar, that its difficulty is nothing whatever to be compared to Sanskrit. Consequently it would be quite impossible for the student to obtain any real knowledge in those languages if they were to reside at Oxford for two years, consistently with their other and more politi- cally important duties. Therefore when that was un- certain we recommended that the second Arabic chair should have both Arabic and Persian, the other liaving the Arabic and the Seniitic. In Germany the professorships of Eastern languages are certainly' very varied ; there is one in Egyptian, there are two in the cuneiform languages, three which combine Persian and Arabic, three in Arabic and Syriac, three Ethio- pic, and one in Zend, and one, which we referred to just now, in the Talmud and Jewish literature, and (which would have a good deal of bearing possibly upon this subject) one in vulgar Arabic, or conversa- tional Arabic. I asked Professor Chenery to write me a letter, when he told me he was going to resign his chair. I said, I wish you would give your opinion to the board, and he declined doing so on the ground that he thought it was a veiy delicate proceeding when a professor was leaving his chair to recommend anything of such a character to his successor ; so, that being so, I asked him to write to myself a letter which I might make use of. In. his letter he says: “ I do not think that I have anything of importance “ to add to the opinions I have expressed to you on ‘‘ former occasions, both by letter and verbally, with “ relation to the teaching of Arabic in the university. “ All depends on the view of the professor’s func- “ tions taken by those in authority. If he is to be “ a teacher capable of imparting a thorough know- “ ledge of the language, able himself to read it, to “ write it, and to speak if, and consecj;uently fitted to “ communicate the same faculties to others, he should “ be either a native of the East, or one who has “ made himself acquainted with the subject by inter- “ course with orientals. I must say that my own “ judgment is entirely in favour of a professor of this “ kind. If, on the other hand, the university desires “ that the Arabic Professor should be the repre- “ sentative of what is called the Semetic group of “ languages, and give lectures or write books on “ the ‘ comparative ’ study of these languages, the “ Council or Commission will seek a scholar of a “ different character. I would only remark that if “ the professor is intended to give useful instruction “ to young men who ai’e to live among Muslims, and “ to gain any respect from them as masters of the “ Arabic language, something more is required than “ a knowledge of paradigms and the mechanism of “ inflection. If the two professorships are to be “ maintained, one, at least, in my opinion ought to “ be given to a man who has learnt Arabic in the “ same way as one learns French; for after all “ Arabic is a living language — ^ after English the “ most universally extended of living languages — “ and the medium of comnmnication between popula- “ tions that lie across the whole world from the West ‘ Coast of Africa to Nankin and the Malay Archi- “ pelago. If you could get a man like Palmer of “ Cambridge, who knows the language practically, “ and yet has the European scholarship and critical “ power, the chair would be well filled.” I beg pardon for going back, but there was one thing which I forgot to say with regard to the clerical student- ships — that I thought some ground ought to be shown for a change if there were any. I have not been an examiner myself for many years, but I have, I believe, heard the report of all the examinations, and there has been no difference whatever between the candidates for the lay studentships and the clerical in point of talent. We have had no want of selection. On the contrary, when on one occasion we had a lay studentship and a clerical studentship to fill up, the lay candidates were more in number, but we had to fill the vacancies by two of the clerical candidates. I think if anyone compares those who work on and those who have ceased, he will be of opinion that there has been just as high talent amongst the clerical students as there has been amongst the others. 4592. You have another point as to establishing resident fellowships for studying, tenable on certain terms ? — That was discussed at one time at Christ Church. I forget why the discussion came to an end, but I think it was because it was thought that this Commission would probably settle the point. I have anticipated what I had to say about that very much in what I said about law or about theology, but it seems to me somewhat out of the way to have a sinecure of 250/. a year, simply because a person has been well educated and got a first class. A short . residence would be most exceedingly valuable. I remember that I myself obtained a fellowship, the object of it being to have a resident home in Oxford. I mention it because I was told that my position was thought very enviable, in that I had no occasion to have ]>upils, and therefore I could give my time entirely to hard theological study. I think that terminable fellowships for two or three years with certain tests to show that a person was- really employed in study for those two or three years would be most extremely valuable ; given as those fellowships would be to able men, they would lay the foundation for a real solid study of the subject which would form the occupation of their future life. On the subject of havina: additional professors, 1 remem- ber several years ago, in the year 1830, examining where our divines had obtained their learning, and [ found that all, I think with only one exception, had been either members of cathedrals or resident mem- bers of an university. The object of those fellow- ships would be to enable young students to reside P p 2 OXFOKD Rev. E. L. Fuse;/, D.D. 3 Nov. 1877. 300 UNIVERSIT’i OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. E. a. Pusey, D.D. 3 Nov. 1877. in tlie universit)' and lay the foundation ot knowledge f593. Is tliat all that you have noted down, and of their future profession, whether it should be medl- on which you wish to otter any suggestions to the cine, or law, or theology. Commission ? — Yes. The witness withdrew. Rev IF. IF. Jackson, M.A. The Rev. VV. W. J.vck.son, M.A. (Fellow of Exeter College), examined. 4,594. ( Chairman.^ I understand that you represent Mr. Pelham as well as yourself, and are prepared to read his statement, and that you yourself have astate- ment which you wish to make tons; is that so? — That is the ease, and 1 would introduce Mr. Pelham’s remarks into mine, if you will permit me to do so. These re- marks are based on the supposition that anj' changes will not, at all events immediately, supercede the college system, or produce a radical change in it. The main features of the college system are, intellectual as well as moral supervision exercised by the college authorities, and education conducted by personal com- munication between tutor and piij)il individually. The appointment of readers may, I think, enable the colleges to fulfil their proper duties better than at present, and at the same time increase the efficiency of university teaching, ^.e., of teaching open to all members of the university without distinction of colleges. But to secure both of these ends simul- taneously, it seems necessary : I. That the professors alone should not have the entire management and direction of the teaching, though they might with advantage have a greater inttuence over it than at present; and II. That the colleges should have a voice in the appointment of readers. I. With regard to the first point, the waste of ])o\yer under the ]>re- sent system shows that better organisation is impera- tivel}’ needed, and that economy would be greatly promoted by the establishment of lectures, such as would be given by readers, open to all members of the university. Mr. Pelham’s statement is this : “ There are two directions esj)ecially in which our “ educational machinery needs reform. We want “ greater economy in the use of our teaching power, “ and greater freedom and variety in the teaching “ itself. As things are at present, the waste of power “ is somewhat startling. Lectures upon the same “ book, or subject, are multiplied to a most unneces- “ sary extent. Nor can we plead in excuse that tliere “ is any great ditt’erence in the nature of the audience, “ or the treatment of the subject. In all the teaching “ is addressed to the same class of students, and directed to the same object, the coming university “ examination. The simple fact is that some 60 or 70 “ men are broken up into small batches, varying from “ 5 to 10 in number, to receive very similar instruc- “ tion on one and the same subject from the hands of “ different teachers. We thus get a great waste of “ power ; we also get an unfair pressure upon the “ educational staff, a very inadequate amount of free- “ dom and variety in the teaching, and an inferio- “ rity of quality in the lectures. The real cause of “ these evils I believe to be the spirit of particu- “ larism which has hitherto been predominant in “ college arrangements, and 1 believe, too, that with- “ out destroying the individuality of colleges, some “ re-arrangement in this direction is necessary. A “ partial attempt to remedy these evils has been made “ by voluntary combination, and with partial but a very “ limited success. The real solution, however, of “ the difficulty lies in the establishment of a more “ compact and forcible union, stamped with the “ sanction of the university, and in close connexion “ with the teaching which the university officially provides. There might he ( I am here speaking “ only of Litera; Humaniores) one central board “ charged with the arrangement of the lectures for “ the year. Setting aside the special requirements of “ particular colleges, this board would accurately map “ out the ground to be covered, and secure a fair pro- ‘‘ portionate recognition of each subject. The staff “ of lectures would be taken first from the pro- “ fcssois and readers in this department. In addition “ to these the board would receive proposals for “ lectures from college tutors and lecturers, and would “ exercise its judgment in so adjusting these as to “ produce a harmonious scheme, and the lectures “ thus accepted would, like those of the professors “ and readers, be open to all students, and given under “ university authority. There need he no fees, the “ professors and readers receiving their salaries as “ fixed by the university, and the college teachers “ being }>aid by the colleges themselves. As regards “ the constitution of this central board, I should sug- “ gest that it consist of — (1) the university profes- “ sors and readers in this department ; (2) an equal “ number at least taken from the educational staffs of the various colleges, and elected by them to hold “ office for some period not exceeding three years. “ It should also be remembered that this organised “ lecture system would not stand alone, but would “ still be sui)plemented by the private assistance and “ advice given to individual students by the college staff. The college teacher would lecture on one “ subject, not a miscellaneous variety, and in co- “ operation with others of whose services he could “ avail himself for the benefit of his pupil.-!, while in “ his mqre private capacity he would retain more “ time for the general supervision of the students “ under his care; and in this respect I see no reason “ why a university reader, if attached by his endow- “ ment to a particular college, should not be tims “ utilised within its walls. The prosi)ective ad\an- “ tages of this scheme would be — ( 1 ) an authoritative “ organisation of the teaching, hy which waste of “ pow'cr would be avoided, and the present un- “ equal pressure on individual teachers would he “ relieved; (2) college teaching would be connected ‘‘ with the higher instruction given by professors “ and readers; (3) special study of particular sub- “ jects would be encouraged, and ambition raised “ by the prospect of a recognised j)osition and a “ larger audience ; (4^ greater freedom and variety “ as well as a liigher standard of excellence “ would be secured. Negatively it M’ould not pre- “ elude, but rather facilitate, individual supervision “ in the separate colleges, while also the union of a “ professional and of a non-professional element in “ the controlling board would be beneficial to both, “ checking on the one hand a tendency to make the “ teaching an official monopoly, and on the other “ preventing the teaching from sinking to too “ low a level, or becoming too entirely divorced “ from research.” Although better organisation is greatly needed, the direction of studies should not, I think, be left entirely to the professors, or atten- dance on their lectures made compulsory. The pro- fessors would often be unfitted and very probably un- walling to assume the sole direction of the teaching. Eminent men wdio had made their reputation else- where and had no knowledge of the university .system would often be appointed to professorships, i'or although the claims of students in Oxford w'ould always have w'eight, it w'ould be very undesirable that professorships shoukl be in any way' confined to them. But a newly appointed professor who had no ex- perience would at first and for a long time be unable to direct properly the teaching given in this subject. Again, a professor might, and very' often would, have special views of his own, or hobbies which he wi.«hcd to bring into undue prominence. Or he might enter- tain so strong an objection to the examination system as to wish to direct the teaching without any reference to examinations. In any case, whether the professor had been previously resident in Oxford or not, he would in jiroportion to his absorption in his own special studies be unfamiliar with the wants of the average student for whom as well as for the more UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ;joi advanced due provision must be made. Nor could attendance on profes.sors’ lectures with advantage be made compulsory. It would in the first jrlace be unnecessary to compel attendance u])on professors’ lectures which were either distinguished by special excellence, or well ada[)ted to convey instruction. Under the present system tutors generally direct their pupils to attend those professorial lectures which are suited to their capacity. If the teaching here were better organised with the tiid of the professors this jiractice would become universal, and students would attend professors’ lectures as a matter of course. And the professor from his position would be able to select his own subject for lecture, and be therefore likely to lecture well. Ihit it may happen that a professor is a very bad lecturer, nor ought inability to lecture to be a bar to the appointment of an eminent man. In such a case, however, it would be unjust to waste the time of students and run the risk of impairing their interest in the subject. Lectures which are compul- sory are seldom attended with any spirit. This has often been proved by experience. Even college lec- tures, which stand on a very different footing from professorial, are not now generally compulsory to the same degree or in the same way as formerly. There is no doubt that the difficulty of making satisfactory arrangements is to a great extent due to the existence side by side of professorial teaching and of examina- lions which are to a great extent independent of that teaching. But there is no reason why examinations should not be a suitable test of the attainments of those who have had the soundest and most scientific leaching. Absolute control of the teaching by pro- lessors implies an absolute control of the examinations by professors, i.e. a despotism wdiich might at times be beneficient, but from which if it were oppressive there would be no appeal. An examination system into which the professors would be free to introduce improvements if needed, and constitutional govern- ment in each department of study, seem to offer the best means of adjusting rival claims, and of uniting opposite tendencies. II. As to the mode of appoint- ment of readers. If they be appointed by boards, these boards might consist of one or two professors of the subject to be entrusted to the reader, and three or four delegates from different colleges. Or the proportions might be varied if necessary. At all events the colleges should, I think, be represented. The governing bodies of colleges seem eminently well fitted to nominate some members of such boards of electors. These bodies are themselves composed of men who owe their [tosition to the principle of selection by merit. The non-resident members would have as much interest as the resident in extending this principle. The resident members besides have varied academical experience. The opinion of the whole body wotdd be brought to bear so strongly on OXFORD. its delegate as to ensure the proper exercise of bis res])onsil)ility. The j)rofessors are not well fitted by their position to be the sole nominators of readers ' A itrofessor often has very little knowledge of young 3 \s 77 . and rising men from whom readers would be selected. Such men are w^ell known to members of colleges, who either know by experience their merits as teachers, or are in the way of hearing them constantly discussed. This capacity of teaching will be the first requisite of a reader. Colleges, moreover, will ulti- mately supply funds for the payment of readers, and may be thought, for this reason, entitled to some voice in their nomination. Finally, the readers will be one of the chief links of connexion between the colleges and the professors. They will carry instruction lower down into the ranks of the students than the pro- fessors can. ■ Colleges will have to supply them with classes, and it is ab.solutely necessary that they should have the confidence of the colleges. This they would be likely to possess if they aie to some extent ap- pointed by the colleges. The formation of the gr. 3 up.s of electors is a matter of detail which could be easily arranged, 'fhese remarks are intended to apply immediately to the classical studies. They seem to me equally applicable to mathematical and historical, and might with very little change be made to apply to the studies of law and natural science. 4595. {Prof. Smith.) With reference to the ap- pointment of i-eaders, I think one gentleman who has. given evidence before* us has suggested the following plan — that each college should appoint a represen- tative, and that whenever a vacancy occurred these representatives of the colleges should nominate a small board, consisting say, of five members, to elect. Would or would not that proposal be one that you would be in favour of ? — I think that proposal would be consistent with the opiiuons which I have expressed. 4596. {Cliairtnan.) Your view is that the pro- fessors should be represented upon the board who were to elect the reader, but should not have any controlling power? — Not so as to have a j)iepon- derant voice. The plan which had occurred to me was, perhaps, not so completely digested as that just mentioned. I thought that small boards nnght be formed, for instance, in the Natural Science School, if that were taken as an example, composed of two of the professors, with a nominee, let us say, from each of three colleges which have interested them- selves in promoting natural science teaching, such as Christ Church, Magdalen, and Exeter. 'I’he plan that Professor Smith suggests seems to me to be more matured and to meet the whole ease ; bid ihe other plan may perhaps better secure the hearty co- operation of the colleges. The witness withdrew. R. W. Macan, Esq., M.A. (Senior Student and Tutor of Christ Church), examined. 4597 . {Chairman.) We understand from your letter that you have resided for two years continuously at foreign universities in Germany and Switzerland as an ordinary matriculated student, and that you have in that manner acquired knowledge of those uni- versities ? — I have. 4598. {Prof. Smith.) What are those universities? — I was 15 months at the university of Jena near Weimar, in Thuringia, and I was nine months at the university of Zurich in Switzerland. Of course had I foreseen this opportunity I should have observed more closely and more with reference to the working of our own system, the continental system, so far as it came under my notice ; but even without that there remains in my memory a great deal which could not but form a strong contrast with our existing system here, and which naturally suggests a number of refiec- tions which I venture to think might be of value. 4599. Can you state what is the number of students at those two universities of Jena and Ziirich ? — Roughly speaking there were about 500 students when I first went to Jena, but the number iticreased whilst I was there owing to the opening ol' a railway. When I fiist went to Jena there was no railway, the nearest railway station was 13 miles away. 4600. {Dr. Bellamy.) Did the number of students increase materially ? — It increased by about 100, and there w'as every sign of a further increase. At Zurich there is a large number of students, but they do not all belong to the university, because contiguous to the university, in fact under the same roof, there is the Polytechnikum, which is much more largely attended by students of all nationalities. It is one of the pecularities of Zurich that the students are not by any means exclusively Swiss or German, but Russian, Bohemian, Hungarian, Austrian, a large number of Italians, and a few F'reneh ; so that it is a very representative university indeed in that way. The total number of students at the university of Zurich is 375, 35 of whom are persons admitted to attend the lectures without being matriculated ; but the number of students that you would see about the a. TIv Macan, Esq., M.A. V p 3 ITNI^'ERSITY OF OXFORD OOMMISSIOX ; — MINl^’F-S OF F.VIDF.NCE. OXFORD. R. ir. Macan, Esq., M.A. 3 Nov. 1877. ;u)2 streets at Zurich would amount to about a thousand perliaps. owing to there being from fiOO to TOO at the Polytechnikum. iGOl. {Chairman.) Your first head 1 see is as to the discipline of the students; what have you to observe upron that point? — That falls naturally into the two heads of moral discipline and of more strictly instructional discipline. Under the head of moral (liscij)line the thing that strikes one in an English university as contrasted with a foreign university is that the organ of di.scipline here is primarily the college. In Jena, for instance, the discipline was in the hands of the university, but it was administered partly by the rector and the deans of the faculties, who if any disturbance occurred would have a special meeting about it, and partly by the ordinary university |)olice. The commonest punishment there was an incarceration, and the Career is an invariable acconipianinient of a German University. In Ziiricdi the system w’as different; there the moral and social discipline of the students was mainly conducted by the State police. The students were like other citizens in the town, directly under the Cantonial police the Stafif.s-Polizei. To show how that works I may mention that one Sunday morning I received a citation to appear at a jiolice centre, without being told in the least what the grounds of the summons were. I went at the appointed time and I found that I had been sent for for having attended or having been supposed to have attended a duel. A duel had taken place and some name had been given which resembled mine, and the piolice officials had looked down the list of students and come to my name and then sent for me. I was not told until I got there what it was for, and I pointed out at the time the difference there would be in the conduct of the matter in Engl and. But besides those direct means of dis- cipline, in Germany there are a number of what you might call indirect meanS of discipline ; so that the tliscipline is not so rude and chaotic as it is some- times represented to be by jicople who ignore these secondary sources of disciplihe. In the first j)lace the compulsory military service both in Germany and Switzerland makes a great difference to the actual conduct and morale of the students. Many of the siudents are actually soldiers at the time ; and, besides, there is the feeling which it naturally spreads through a body all of whom are subject to military service both in Germany and in Switzerland. The second point is that as a rule the students at a German university and in Switzerland are too poor to indulge in luxurious and extravagant living. That tends therefore to restrain certain sources of disorder. The third point is that there are clubs or combinations of students living under rules which to a certain extent provide a rule of life in some directions. I may mention for instance with referetice to what would be naturally one of the great difficulties in an university where there is no college system, that many of these students’ clubs ( Vcrhindungeii) have a rule of chastity for the members. Those clubs are the ciubs wliich maintain the duelling and so on ; the rivalry between the clubs tends to kee[> that up. The club also tends to keep up the habit of drinking beer. 4-60‘i. (Prof. Smith.) Do you mean that the same club will maintain the principle of duelling and also the obligation of Chastity ? — Y"es. These clubs are the relics of what were called in the middle ages “Nations’’ in the universities, and they carry on a great deal of the chivalrous principle. The German student's idea of duelling is that it is Rittcrlich or knightly. 4603. If a man has been guilty of a breach of chastity is he considered bound in hoziour to witlulraw from the club ? — I cannot say. I was not a member of one of those clubs. I was a member of another club which has been recently I'ormed by a reaction of the students against the duelling principle, and the rules were not .so strict. 4604. {Chairman.) In the duels do they fight in earnest and kill eacli other sometimes ? — Whilst I was at Jena there were at least two deaths resulting i’rom the duels. The deaths did not take place during the duels, but arose, I believe, from the uuhealthy state of body in which the students w'cre from drinking lai'ge quantities of beer. 4605. {Jdr. Bellamy.) Do most of the students belong to the clubs ? — That varies in different univer- sities. I should say not myself. In Zurich where the discipline is administered by the state police the clubs are much more insignificant and duelling is strictly suppi’essed. 4606. Is thei’e any expense connected wnth the clubs? — Very slight ; there are club entertainments, but it is done by small subscriptions. Another thing which tends to check the want of discipline is that according to the German system the student's univer- sity career, and Ins degree, and so on, are in more direct relation perhaps to his future career in life that is the case with us at present. Eor instance, all medical students in Germany must have university degrees, and then there is a higher spirit of study prevalent there than there is with us. In contrast with that the oljection to our college system as at present conducted is its expense and extravagance. That of course arises from two sources. We have great difficulties vvith the college serv.ants who are permanent servants whilst their masters are con- stantly succeeding each other very rapidly ; and it is the old story of the difficulty about keeping perquisites and so on within proper bounds ; .and on the other hand there is the difficulty -which arises from the carelessness and extravagance of the undergraduates themselves. Something may be done by greater vigilance and strictness on the part of the authorities, but I do not myself see any way of actually counteracting the evil but that which has been adopted at Keble College, lo intensify flu; collegiate di.scipline and to make all meals really common. As to whether celibates ai’e necessary to the working of the college system, as is sometimes asserted ; if that were the case, I suppose it would practically in the present day or very soon be a condemnation of the system. But I suppose that it has been practically found in Oxford now that it is not absolutely neces- sary, 4607. {Prof. Smith.) You would think, would you not, that there ought to be a certain number of unmarried men living within a college in order to maintain its discipline and even its teaching ? — I think that a certain number of tutors living within the college is a necessity, but I do not see any difficulty in having married tutors in college; and, secondly, I imagine that even if the celibate restriction were re- moved it would not at once follow that all the tutors or college officer's would be married. Even now tlici e are many instances where jreople are free to mar ry who do not do so. It is only a question of qui nolunt occidere quenquam, yossc volunf. 4608. Do you think that iir the long run you could rely upon a married tutor being willing to give the amount of time in tire evening to looking after his men which in the present condition of tire college system is alrrrost rrecessary ? — Do you mean as a question of pure moral and social discipline or of teaching. 4609. Of teaching ? — If he does rrot give the tiirre in the evening he will give it at some other time. For irrstance at Christ Church I am a tutor, brrt I rrever see my private pupils in the evening because we do not dine until 7 ; and that would throw the work very late. I see them either in the rrrorning or in the interval between 5 o’clock and 7. That I iirragine is more desirable iir itself. As far as I can see it is not possible to have airy but very young laymen in residence in the college if the celibate restriction is maintained. YVe should then if you like have a number of young laymen as college tutors or lecturers or authorities, but it appears to me that the elder men worrld practically in most cases only be clergymen who have some prospect of retiring to college livings. I do not see how you would persuade young laymen to UNIVEUSITY or OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. .So;3 remain here permanently instead of going out to London or into tlie world in other ways, if that restric- tion is maintained. I do not propose to say anything more about the moral discipline, but I would go on to speak of the more strictly instructional discipline. I hope it will not seem an exaggeration if I say that in Oxford as contrasted with Germany and with Switzerland, at any rate so far as my experience of Continental universities goes, the system here seems based upon the supposition that the undergraduate does not wish to learn, or does not know exactly what to learn, or does not know exactly what subject to choose, or at least under which teacher he should ])ursue his studies. There is the minimum of free- dom in that direction. Hence we have compulsory examinations at stated periods. V\ e have practically enforced attendance at lectures, and we have generally an initiative from above. Tt is a common])lace now to say that no better device could be excogitated for dulling the zeal of a student and materialising bis aims. The answer ordinarily is that the system has not been devised for the benefit of students, but of those who require whip and bridle, that is to say “ the ignorant or the indolent passmen.” This distinction helween pass and class is practically almost unknown in a German university, and it is partly accountable for the evil. This distinction and the system worked in connexion with it of compulsory examination and so on is attended with certain other anomalies, for instance that the university assigns no limit to the time during which a passman may prepare for his degree, but does practically assign a limit for the honour man ; and further what is even more striking, though the university both examines and teaches, its instruc- tion, that is to say, through the professoriate, at present seems to have little or no relation to the examinations. Preparation for the examinations, espe- cially in the schools with which I am more acquainted, namely the classical schools, the School of Literns Humaniores, is almost entirely in the hands of college tutors and lecturers and what are called “ coaches,’’ private tutors to whom the pupil resorts. The uni- versity, I think I am right in saying, at present does nothing for the passmen and very little for the honour man. Nearly all the professors I believe (if I may speak on what is after all hearsay) except the science processors would complain of the lack of attendance at their lectures. We have in fact two systems of in- struction at present at work in Oxford which are more or . less antagonistic to each other in their methods and aims, namely, the collegiate system and the university or professorial system. The one is based on the idea that study must be enforced and constantly watched and dictated from above ; and the other upon the idea that study proceeds from a love of knowledge and is a liberal and natural pursuit. According to the one idea study is a part of the general discipline and the university only continues the work of the school ; according to the other the university is a new field of exercise and freedom to which the student is introduced as a free and rational human being. It appears to me to be unfair to point to the failure of the professoriate here as a proof of its inutility, for it has not yet had a fair chance of success. Its ground is preoccupied so far as its educational functions are concerned by the tutors, the lecturers, and the “ coaches.” The professors are called upon to teach in the grand style, but there are no students in the grand style to attend their lectures. We have teachers free to teach without regard to this or that special examination and only as the natural divisions of their topic or their own natural preferences and abilities dictate, but we have not got students free to study on the same principles. Hence I believe that what is wanted is greater freedom for the higher students here as to choice of subjects and teachers. In creating the professoriate we have been more or less committed to the higher view of the educational discipline and function of this jilace. In the future increase of the professorial staff and strength com- monly expected and desired as a result of the labours of this Commission, we shall be, if it takes place, still further committed to the principle. Let the uni- versity then assume the full responsibility for all ^ the teaching, or at least for all the higher teacliing, of this place. Until that express principle is fully carried out and thoroughly applied the professoriate cannot have fair play. The system of university teaching is crossed at present by the college system which to a certain extent has broken down and con- fessed its failure in the practice of combined college lectures which has now for some time been in vogue here. 4610. {Chairmfm.) Do you propose now to show how you would accomplish the object of taking to the university the higher teaching and excluding the colleges from it ? — To a certain extent 1 think that will be shown in w'hat I propose further. Let tlie university relieve the colleges of the higher teacliing, or, at least, let this be the direction in which reform moves, and let no one ultimately teach or be paid for teaching merely as a college official. If, however, such a system be inapplicable to passmen, and if pEss- men are to be a permanent element in the university, let the college teaching be restricted to pass teaching or to honour teaching in its earlier stages. The difficulty connected with and created by the honour examination system meets us here. The competitive examination system, though we may say it is non-existent in Germany, is so intimately bound up with the wdiole method of public instruction of England that it is hard to see how' it could possibly be removed or greatly modified at one stroke. I venture to think that the means of finding greater liberty alike for teacher and for learner under the examination system is by further developing, multi- plying, and specialisiag the subjects of examination. Paradoxical as this may seem, yet, practically, we have already found it a truth, and have greatly multi- plied and varied the methods of obtaining a degree w hether by pass or class. And it is obvious that the more topics or departments of knowledge there are in which a man may be examined the more choice and liberty he has to consult his own special predi- lections. For example, I cannot but think that it would be a great gain if the School of Literm Humaniores, which now comprises three distinct subjects, philo- sophy, ancient history, and classical literature, were somewhat further specialised, and these three elements so separated from each other as that it might be possible to take honours, the highest, in one without offering either of the other subjects. At Cambridge they have already a moral science tripos as well as the final classical tripos, and in Oxford we have a somewhat sihiilar case in the constitution of the Natural Science Schools, where, I believe, there are three topics, physics, chemistry, and biology. The can- didate for honours in the last-mentioned must obtain preliminary certificates in the others. So in the School of Literaj Humaniores it might be deemed expedient for a student who proposed to devote himself specially to philosophy to obtain first a certificate or even a class in classics or ancient history, or both. 4611. I suppose in that case the moderations would do for the classics.? — Tes, if the moderations were maintained as at present, but it would, perhaps, be also deemed desirable to have a final classical school for students who devoted themselves to the higher philology and literature of the classics. But it seems a hardship that at present men of decided philosophic predilections and ability have not the option of distinguishing themselves without running the risk of a failure due to their imperfect knowledge of or sympathy with more purely classical topics. I may mention that this is somewhat similar to the method of obtaining a degree in Germany, where it is usual for a student to offer one subject especially for examination which is conducted mainly viva voce, as well as w'riting a thesis for which he has access to authorities in the library, and can take his own lime; and then he is generally expected to be prepared with B ]) 4 OXFORD. ' II'. 3Jac(in Ks(j., 31. A. 3 Xov. 1877. :304 UMVKHSITY OF OXFOllO CO.AIMISSION : — ;\I.INUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. H. IF. AJacan Esq., 3 Nov. 1877. one or two other snhjcct.s as well. 1 remember a iViend of my own, for instance, who obtained liis ’ degree in what we should call Cameralwissenschaft, or political economy. Greek philosophy was one of the other subjects which he offered, but he merely had to qualify in that. 4612. {Mr. Bernard.) Is not Camera hvissenschajt much more extensive than political economy? — Ye.s, I think the present writers on political economy tend to widen its sphere very much. I do not remember in Germany ever coming across the phrase Politischc- Oecnnnmic. 4613. By philosophy you mean, as is usually meant here, mental and moral philosophy ? — Yes, and metaphysical. 4614. In mental ithiiosophy I meant to include metaphysics? — Yes, that is a question of. terminology solely. As changes of this kind come within the powers of the university, I may be excused from dilating u))on them. I might recapitulate what I have said on the subject of the discipline of the under- graduate. I'he tenor of my evidence amounts to this, that for pur])Oses of economical, social, and moral disci- plim , the colleges, if reformed internally and properly worked, suj)ply an excellent and special organ, per- haps better than anything to bo found in foreign universities; that for purposes of instruction, the colleges are useful for passmen and might perhaps be used (in combination) even for the preliminary teach- ing of honourmen ; but that for honourmen in all the final schools (philoso])hy, philology, history, law, theo- logy, and natural science) the teaching ought to be conducted by the university. I venlure to think that this practice is based upon a truer view of the motives ami nature of the higher study and education in our university, that it works well abroad, that it has virtually been accepted here in the creation and development of the professoriate, in the extension now looked for, in the confessed incapacity of the colleges and their eflorts at combination, and that it is most desirable that this Commission should foster and give fresh impulse to the development in this direction. 4615. What substitute would you provide, or how would you suppose that you provide a substitute for the motive to industry whi(4i is now supplied by the authority ol' the colleges? — 1 do not know what motive to industry is applied exccitt the large seho- lar>hips, the large prizes u hich are practically given for it. 4616. You placed before us two systems, as I thought, one of which you supposed to involve a good deal of compulsion and direction, viz., the college system, and the other, which you take as involving little direction and no compulsion, viz., the professorial system. I do not know whether [ misrepresent you ? — 'fo a certain extent that really is the (question of the tutorial .system, is it not. 4617. 1 thought you put before us those two systems? — I do. 4618. What I meant by the motive to industry, as supplied by' the authority of the colleges, was the compulsion and direction exercised by the colleges ; if you remove that and commit university education to the professoriate, which is a system not involving compulsion, and involving little direction, how would y'ou sup|)ose that tlie vacuum so created would be supplied? — My' answer to that is two-fold. In the fiist j)lace as a matter of fact at present there is not very much compulsion brought to bear upon those who are jtursuiilg the higher studies in this j)lace. I myself have very' often complained to my friends that it is very unj)leasant to feel that the men are driven into your lectures, and that there is nut very much moral or j)ersonal relation between you, and that they have no choice about being there. 1 have said that to friends of mine who are lecturing under the combined college system, and their answer to me has been that ])ractically there is very little compul- sion, and that the men have very great freedom as to what lectures they' shall attenil. The best answer is that ('vcryl)ody' is trying to lecture as much as possible in the higher subjects for the final honour schools on the j)rofessorial pattern. The second j)oint is that I do not propose to abolish altogether the tutorial system in jiroposing to transfer all the lecturing func- tions to the university'. There is a subsidiary aspect of that second point, viz., that under any efficient pi'o- lessoriate where the professors were really free to come into open contact with the students I suppose every professor would practically gather round him a small class of the more picked students who would coi respond to vv'hat they have working in Germany under the name of a seminariiim. 4619. Taking human nature as it is, and especially as it is in England, where there is a great love for exercise and sport, I daresay you would agree with me that some motive stronger than the love or desire of knowledge is really wanted for the mass of men in this university' ? — I quite agree with you; but that motive exists at present and would continue to exist. All those men whom I have in view at this time, that is to say, the persons who are jmrsuing the higher studies for the final honour schools, are tolerably con- scious that a good deal of their future welfare depends upon what degree they take, and as a matter of fact it is not as a rule very necessary to spur on the honourmen here in the final schools to greater exer- tion. I think that the mass of them are not greatly deflecti'd hy' athleticism or other causes. 4620. \ou would feel, I dare say, as I should, that the number of men who are now induced to go into the honour schools is so large and iucreasiug a pro- portion of the whole mass, that the distinction between the passmen and the honourmen is becoming less marked than it used to be ? — It is less marked, but the reason I think is partly this, that practically the standard for the pass degree has been rising of late so much that it is easier to get a low class in an easy honour school than to get a pa.ss, at least for a man who can take up a certain amount of work at a given moment. You must have more work for a )>ass, but you can spread it over a longer time. 4621. The very fact that so many men are classmen is due [irobably to some extent to the force which the colleges bring to bear upon them. Without that they probably would be passmen ? — I think it is practically due very much to the representations of their college tutors, who point out to them that it is easier for them to get a low class than to get a pass ; but they would be able to see that fer themselves, if they did not always look to the college tutor for the initiative. 4622. That is a state of things which we cannot assume always to exist in the university ? — No, but I was not proposing entirely to abolish the college tutoriate. I think that for the purpose of assistance and supervision it is desirable to retain it ; only a man should not lecture qua college tutor, but if he chooses to lecture in the university' he should obt;dn permission from the university to do so, or lecture freely at his own risk ; and if he has a salary the salary should be given not by the college but by a central university authority. 4623. {Prof. Smith.) As a salary' for lecturing ? — For lecturing. 4624. {31 r. Bernard.) Do you propose that the colleges should still retain and exercise that kind of power which they at present possess, of advising, and if necessary reiiuiring their students to attend lec- tures ? — Certainly'. 4625. {Chairman.) If the sub-division of the classical school which you have suggested were adopted, would not that have rather a tendency to increase the facility with which a degree could be obtained ? — I think not, because I am only proposing it in the honour school. I think that a man of average ability who has pursued the particular studies necessary for that school has very little difficulty in getting his degree, though he has considerable difficulty in obtaining a first class. All that I wish to do is to specialise the topics which are now taken up by every student and give each an opportunity of pursuing one specially. 4626. One is looking of course to the lowest honours UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 305 and not to tlie highest? — I meant that the schools should be constituted quite distinctly, as it is now o[)cn to anyone to take tlie natural science schools ; he may obtain honours in chemistry and in physics and in biology, but ho is only bound, as it were, to obtain an honour degree in that group ot schools. So in the other case he might be bound to obtain certifi- cates in two other schools, at any rate in the classical school and in the history school, before obtaining honours in the philosophy school ; but he would be perfectly free to go in for honours in all three, and he might obtain a first class in the three, either at once or at different times, 4'627. The difficulty does not arise as to the men who do take or might take first classes, but as to those who take third or fourth classes ? — They would still get third and fourth classes, only they would get |)erhaps a third class in the special school, instead of getting a fourth class as they do now. 4628. {Prof. Smith.) To prevent the standard from falling, you would for example require that if a man got a fourth class in philosophy, he should previously have ])assed a pretty severe examination in the other two branches, ancient history and philology ? — Yes ; and even for those who are aiming at the highest honours in philosophy, I think that some preliminary certificate of classical and historical proficiency should be required, in order that a man might not too early specialise his studies in a philosophical direction. 4629. {Chairman.) Will you now proceed with your next point ? — Another objection (which I have already met) is that if all instruction, or all the higher instruction, were transferred to the univer- sity, the advantages of the tutorial system would be lost, the personal supervision, advice, and if neces- sary, co-operation. But in the first place there would still, I suppose, be tutors in the various colleges with more intimate relations to their pupils. Those tutors also might or might not be university readers (that would be so to speak an accident of their tutoriatc) not professors ; but they should be tutors of special subjects. The old idea of the tutoriate must be given up, according to which a tutor was omniscient and ])repared to assist his pupils in anything, history, or philosophy, or natural science, or whatever it might be. Thus there would be in each college or combination of colleges, to take the School of Literac Humaniores, one or more tutors of ancient history, of philosophy, of classical literature and ])hilology, and so on in the other schools of modern history, theology, law and science. Then the second point is that the professors should not be content with lecturing only, but that every professor, under a freer system, would gather round him a smaller circle of students working directly under him, writing essays, &c., as is done in Germany, and as 1 myself have done under a professor. Onl)^ the best students probably would come into this closer personal relation with the professor ; and that renders it additionally desirable to maintain the tutoriate for the men who, to use the common pat lance, would be second or third class men. There is a further point which I think I may be allowed to raise, and that is the question of women students. At Zurich I have often sat at lecture side by side with a young lady, and there was never atiy difficulty created by it. Of course that is also done at Cambridge, but we have not yet made any step towards doing it at Oxford. 4630. {Prof. Smith.) Are there any mixed classes at Cambridge ? — I thought they attended the pro- fessors’ lectures in the university of Cambridge. 4631. {Chairman.) At Zurich I suppose the men and women do not sit promiscuously ; if 1 may use that expression ? — Quite promiscuously ; and not only that, but at Zurich they carried the principle to the furthest possible limit. I have been in the dissecting room, and there the medical students of both sexes work, if not side by side, at any rate in the same room. 4632. {Prof, Smith.) I thought there had been a difficulty at Zurich about the female medical students? Q 0223. — About the Russian students. The Russian students OXFORD. were recalled by the Russian Government under penalty of forfeiting their Russian nationality, and a R- W. Macan, good many of them returned though a good many Esq., M.A. remained. I believe I am right in saying that the g Nov 1877 authorities of the Zurich university protested against ' ' the allegation which was made by the Russian Government of laxity in the morale of the students. That was given as the reason by the Russian Government, but the reason which was popularly assigned in Zurich was of a particular character, Zurich next to Geneva being the head-quarters of Republicanism in Switzerland. The question about the appointment of all lecturers as university officials leads to the question of the method of pay- ment, and as to that there is only one point upon which I wish specially to dwell. I think that practi- cally as a matter of fact, the great difficulty in working the combined .system of colleges is found to be that they have not contrived yet to centralise the funds. But the point upon which I wish specially to dwell is that I think it is very desirable that a lecturer should in part be j)aid by fees. 46.33. { Chairman.) That he should have an interest in the number of his pupils ? — That he should have an interest in the number of his pupils, and in the efficiency of his teaching. One of the marks of effi- ciency is the greater or less number of students vvho attend the lectures, supposing the attendance to be free ; and one of the sources of the lecturer’s payment, I think, should be fees proportionate to the attendance, whether paid by the college for the students who attend, or directly by the students themselves. This is done abroad ; it is done in Scotland, and it is done in the new colleges which are founded about the country, as, for instance, at Leeds, and Bristol, and other places; in University College, London, the pro- fessors are paid, I believe, entirely by fees, but that is open to objection, and it ma)G)e desirable to guarantee a professor a certain minimum , but I do not think it is desirable to set that minimum so high as to render the lecturer indifferent to the attendance or want of attendance at his lectures. 4634. (Prof Smith.) How would you propose to deal with those subjects in which the number of students could never be very large ? — That, of course, is a real objection ; and there is also another objection which occurs to one, of not quite the same character, but with the same result, namely, that under an ex- amination system it is e.xtremely difficult to make a professor or a university teacher dependent upon his fees, because it practically limits him to teaching for the examinations. With reference to the first objec- tion, which I have anticipated, I think the answer practically is, that if a man is paid as a teacher, if he is established to teach a subject for which there is no demand, or very little demand, he is established at bis own risk, but he finds his satisfaction in other re- sources ; he is an author, or it may be that he is con- tented to have taken up a specialty in which he is an authority, and in which there are few to compete with him ; but looking at the university in its educational functions, I think it is desirable that in all subjects, so far as they are taught, the teacher should be dependent to a certain extent upon fees. A man may be endowed for a special purpose, or for a special period ; as for instance, the Cierman Government have sent a dis- tinguished orientalist to Bondiay to investigate MSS., and so on there ; they pay him handsomely, and he has nothing whatever to do with teaching ; it is a form of original research. The State or the university may endow a man permanently, or for a time for that purpose ; but for a teacher I contend that the fee is an important point. 4635. In the lecture lists of the German uni- versities, I find that some of the professors give lectures privatissime upon subjects for which they can only have the smallest possible audience ; are they paid by fees for that? — That notice ‘■‘■privatis- sime'’ is very often accompanied by a further notice “ gratis.” The professor perhaps has a little private Q q 306 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORU COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. if. IF. Macan, Esq., M.A. 3 Nov. 1877. means ; many of tlic professors have in Germany as elsewhere ; and if not, it is simply that he has taken np that subject, and that he looks either to the State or the reading public at large for his recompense in the long run. 4636. (Mr. Bernard.) Perhaps you think that a specialist of this kind would commonly not be desert- ing a very lucrative })rofession to come and reside at the university, and that therefore. he would be willing to accept a smaller remuneration ? — Certainly, I think in cases where he came ab extra, from abroad, that would be the case. Of course there is the further objection that young students are not always the best judges of their teacliers or of the methods of teaching; but practically I think it is found that men have a very good idea of ndiat are good lectures and what are not, both with reference to examinations, and also on their own merits. The method of selecting the teachers is a further point as well as the method of paying them. It is g;enerally admitted that to appoint teachers as is now practically done in the colleges by examination is not satisfactory. On the other hand it is almost eijually universally admitted that to appoint professors and teachers through the instrumentality of a body like Convocation is also open to grave charges. All thatl could suggest in thelight of experience abroad is that it seems desirable to follow np and develop a hint which is already contained in the provisions for the elections to some chairs in this university which are made by small special boards. In Germany where the appointment is not a Kegius one, and is not made directly by the State, it is made by the faculty ; that is to say the professors of the faculty meet when a vacancy occurs, and either appoint one of the Privat-doceuten, one of the private teachers in the university, or more frecpientlya professor from another university. I cannot but think that the presence of some experts at any rate upon such a hoard is desir- able, though the presence of some representatives of general or official opinion may also be desirable. Per- haps it is to the point here to notice very briefly the method in which a university teacher takes his place in Germany. Il’ a young man who has taken a good degree wishes to devote himself to an university career he pursues his studies for a time and then obtains permission from the university to teach, which is done by writing a thesis or holding a disputation. A lecture room is then assigned to him, and he is not paid any stipend, but he is at liberty to lecture for the statutable fee. He may, if he pleases, lecture on the very same subject on which a professor is lecturing. If he proves successful as a teacher, if his name becomes known in literature, he is pretty sure sooner or later to receive “ a call ” from some other uni- versity, or to be made a professor in his own. Thus, though there is little or no competitive examination amongst the scholars there is a sort of gentle com- petition amongst the teachers which acts as a healthy stimulus to exertion on their part ; and the students are the gainers. 4637. There is a far wider field of promotion in Germany than there is here from the multitude of universities there and from the practice of taking teachers as well as students one from another? — That is tiue. Of course the proportion of students and 23rofessors to the population is much greater in Ger- many than it is in England. At the same time with the schemes now in operation for the extension of the university style of teaching in both the north and south of England there is every chance of a great increase of such posts in England. 4638. ( Chairman^ What is the third point which you are prepared to put before the Commission ? — I think the evils of our present system culminate in the teaching of philosophy and theology. Of the existing system in the latter subject I do not propose to say very much, though I think that the institution of the honour school in theology is a very doubtful boon to the university or to the country, while the compulsory examination in the rudiments of faith and religion to which everybody is subject (or only excused on ex- pressing conscientious objections to the examinations and on the substitution of an equivalent amount of work), I venture to hold to be almost an unmixed evil. 4639. (Prof. Smith.) Do you think it produces any effect at all of any sort or kind? — I do not think it produces any permanent gain to knowledge, character, or faith. I am speaking of the pass ex- amination in the rudiments of faith and religion. I think it leads to a most irreverent system of cramming biblical facts and texts and also the Articles ; and I have never met any passman, much less any honour man, who attended the compulsory divinity lectures with pleasure, or as he believed with profit. 4640. Are the divinity lectures compulsory in the colleges ? — They are in my own college, and they were in my original college, and I suppose they still are. 4641. (Chairman.) What was your college? — I was at University College. With reference to the teaching of philosophy, in the first place philosophy, less than any other study, perhaps lends itself to the requirements of an ordinary conq)etitive examination. Philosophy is not a book or a scries of facts which can be “ got up,” either by the student himself or at second hand from his tutor or “ coach.’’ It is too serious and extensive and intimate a matter (or spirit I) for that. If it is an error on the one hand to force those into a philosophical or partly philosophical school who have no natural proclivity that way, it is no less an error on the other hand so to conduct the study or school as to leave an impression on the students or scholars that philosophy is a trick of answering ex- amination papers, a sort of sophistry or rhetoric, florid or technical, by which to please or to deceive an examiner with a show of knowledge. Philosophy, like poetry or religion, touches life very really. I may read a short extract from a book which I only came across yesterday. It expresses exactly what I wish to say myself Mr. Latham who is a fellow and tutor of Trinity Hall, Cambridge, has just published a book on “ The Action of Examinations ” ; and he says (p. 313) “ In order that a subject may act effectively “ for the kind of discrimination we have in view it “ should be one in which there is a positive right and “ wrong. When the matter is sj)eculative one school of “ opinions will prevail at one time and one at another ; “ the examiners will lean, or will be fancied by the “ students to lean, to one or the other, and however “ impartial they may wish to be, this element of “ suspicion will exist.” It is notorious that rightly or wrongly many undergraduates think that in the philosophy papers in the final schools it is desirable to “write to” an examiner if he happens to be a man of more or less proclaimed philosophical stand-point. I have already suggested as a desirable change greater liberty and specialisation in the final school of Literic Humaniores and that it should be made possible for a student to obtain honours in philosophy apart from the other subjects, and in the other subjects apart from philosophy. I do not think I need enter upon the desirability of creating a special philosophy degree such as they have abroad of Doctor of Philosophy which might or might not be given for special theses, because 1 think all that falls within the existing powers of the university. I wish to lay emphasis upon the method of teaching philosophy and of appoint- ing teachers which is at present in vogue in this place. Philosophy is a subjeci which rve admit demands a certain degree of maturity and which should not be undertaken by a man as a sort of make- shift or pastime. Of recent years philosophy has been taught at Oxford to a great extent by young fellows of colleges either as college lecturers or as private tutors or “ coaches” who have been merely here en passant on their way to the bar or other profes- sions. In rnyf own case my first introduction to philo- sophy was under a teacher who was only a year in Oxford. He obtained a fellowship hy examination and was then j)ut to teach philosophy, to introduce the students for the final schools to their philoso- phical subjects, and he remained, I think, only UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 3()7 one year lierc. Tliat. is to say, men are set to teach and have been set to teach and lecture in philosophy who have no intention of making the subject a perma- nent study or this place their permanent home, who are perhaps fresh from the examination papers in the schools. I do not think I exaggerate when I ascribe a good deal of the cynicism and sophistry and intellec- tual frivolity for which Oxford has acquired rightly or wrongly an undesirable name to some extent to the artificial conditions under which philosophy has been taught, that is to say by young laymen who are prac- tically compelled to seek elsewhere their permanent career. The examination system and the practice of publishing the examination papers (which was not done in other days) has tended to foster the same practice, arid has assisted them to reduce the philoso- phical training merely to a knack of answering any question set in the whole field of mental, moral, political, and metaphysical theory and logic by a few formulcE. Of course on the whole the cleverest and best men came to the top as they would under any system, and found themselves in possession of a tangled and confused wmb of opinions and methods in which the only thing certain was uncertainty. I think that in connexion with the teaching of philosophy another evil has been that the students have been thrown practically almost without any choice of their own at the mercy of this or that man, and may be quite be- wildered by the various views which are put before them by successive teachers. In philosophy it is perhaps more essential than in anything else that the pupil should choose his own teacher, (I suppose that is one meaning of Platonic affection,) and should not at any rate be committed by chance or by any external authority first to one tutor and then to another. I am well aware that something has been done in Oxford already towards mitigating these evils. In those colleges which have most distinguished them- selves in philosophical teaching the teaching has been in the hands of laymen who are able by the regula- tions of their colleges to look to Oxford as their permanent home. It is quite notorious in Oxford where the best philosophic teaching is to be had at present. Then again by the combination of colleges and the good sense of individual tutors it is put to a certain extent within the power of the students in those colleges to select at any rate their own lecturers and what philosophical lectures they will attend. A further step has been made in the right direction by some colleges in the appointment in many cases of lecturers in philosophy without regard to examinations, but upon other considerations. How- ever, I think that still greater publicity and free- dom is to be desired, especially with regard to the teachirig of jihilosophy ; for I believe that this would be accompanied by increased sobriety and responsi- bility on the part of the teachers. If no teacher who lectured on philosophy obtained a public audience except with the sanction of the university, and if all lectures were open to all the students and there were a free selection between lecturers and hearers, then supposing the examination system were reformed considerably, I think that the chief evils of the present but decaying system would be mitigated or removed. They are being removed as it is by internal causes ; but I think it is in the power of the Commission to accelerate that process. The chief thing to be done is to provide that the appointments to the teacherships of philosophy, whether to those alread}' existing or to those to be created, should not be in the hands of persons or of any body such as Convocation, likely to be disqualified by external considerations for forming a due estimate of the scientific claims of rival candidates. 4642. {Prof. Smith.) What are the external con- siderations to which you refer ? — I allude for instance to the case of professorships which are filled up by Convocation. If you take the constitution of Convo- cation, which is open to all masters of arts in the universitj', it lends itself very easily to both political, and more especially to theological, considerations in making appointments to chairs which are wholly extra political, and not properly within the sphere of theology. 4646. {Mr. Bernard.) How would you prevent other persons from teaching? — I would not prevent their teaching on their own responsibility, but I ould provide that they should not be paid by the colleges or by the university for doing so. 4644. You would then prevent the colleges from appointing them to be teachers ? — The colleges would have no funds. 4645. Is it not rather the case that the university is without funds than that the colleges are ? — At present it is, but I thought there was some hope that the university would have more funds. 4646. ( Chairman.) Do you mean that you would restrain them by statute from teaching ? — If a man has a private room of his own and invites people to come to it, I think the university would transgress its functions in interfering ; but 1 think that no one should receive a salary or should have a public lecture room put at his disposal, except by the university authorities. 4647. And you would provide for that by statutes which should bind the colleges ? — I have been sup- posing during these considerations that all the lectur- ing is in the hands of the university, and that there are no private lectureships in the special colleges. 4648. But the question was how the colleges were to be prevented from establishing such private lecture- ships, and I suppose you would say that a statute should be made which would bind the colleges not to pay lecturers ? — If it were necessary I would prevent the colleges practically by statute from creating private lectureships at any rate in this sense : either to keep away students from other colleges or to exact a fee from them which was not exacted by their own college, or to restrain them from attending a public lecture. 4649. At all events, as far as necessary, restrictions might be imposed by statute upon colleges to prevent their transgressing the law, which you think ought to be observed ? — Yes, I think so. 4650. {Prof. Smith.) Do you not think that there would be great advantage in a certain amount of rivalry ; the public teaching of some subjects in the university has occasionally been very bad, has it not ? — I think so ; but so far from being at all diminished it would be very much increased by a liberty of teaching being accorded to the people who applied for it, and gave reasonable evidence to the faculty or to the authority, whatever it might be, that they had qualified themselves to teach. Whether they received a salary from the uni- versity would depend upon whether there was a vacancy ; but I suppose that the university might allow any number of persons to teach voluntarily, to give voluntary lectures, and to exact from those who attended those lectures a statutable fee. What the university wants I presume is a large number of rooms, which should be in the first instance at the disposal of its authorised teachers, professors, or readers, and secondly, at the disposal of any person who might apply and show cause for permission being granted him to lecture and to exact a fee for attend- ance without any stipend. 4651. {Chairman.) Have you any further sug- gestion to offer to the Commission ? — There is one further point with reference to the philosophical faculty which I have not heard generally adverted to in conversation, though it may be already familiar to the members of the Commission ; that is to say, I think it would be a great advantage if in the philo- sophical faculty the various chairs were not restricted to particular functions, but if the professors in philosophy were appointed generally as professors in philosophy, and were allowed to settle amongst them- selves upon what subjects they would give public lectures "in any particular term or year. It may happen very naturally that as philosophy is a tolerably extensive and all-embracing thing, a given teacher may wish to go, so to speak, through the whole round Qq 2 OXFORD. jR. W. Macan, Esq., M.A. 3 Nov. 1877. 808 UNIVEllSITY OF OXFOKU COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. B. W. Macan, Esq., M.A. 3 Not. 1877. of philosophy, ami may not wish to be specially re- stricted to logic or to mental science, or to moral science, or to moral philosophy, or whatever it may be called, but may wish to give students an oppor- tunity of hearing a complete system. 4652. {Prof. Smith.) What precaution would you take that all parts of tlie subject should be repre- sented in the lectures? — I think when you had a faculty, a sufficient number of men appointed by the university, they would practically arrange amongst themselves, so that there should be some proper suc- cession and relation between the various parts. That is done abroad, and I do not think that any real difficulty would be found in the practical working of it. I do not think that people would be so stiff- necked as all to le>’ture upon the same subject. 4653. But in foreign universities there is in many cases some controlling power ? — There is the dean of the faculty, but I do not think he has compulsory ])owers. 4654. Does not the government exercise some con- trol in most cases ? — Of course the foreign univer- sities are more directly under the Minister of Istruc- tion or the State than the English universities are. 4655. Does not that make a great difference in the question which is now before us, because at Oxford your professors w'ould be absolutely independent and without control ? — Still there would be the uni- versity. The particular faculty will not be supreme even in its own department ; there will still be a central university authority, whether a council or a chancellor or a vice-chancellor. 4656. ( Chairman.) With power to remove a pro- fessor if he w'ere found to be impracticable and in- capable of working with another ? — I presume that that power exists at present. 4657. {Prof. Smith.) I think you would have to create fresh powers in the university to do what you suggest? — That may be, hut I think that is not an unanswerable objection. 1 do not fancy it is desirable that an individual professor should be so autocratic ; that is not an objection so much to my proposal as to the existing state of things in Oxford. I have accre- dited the university at present with too much central authority. 4658. I only want to elicit your opinion as to the amount of central authority that would be required ? — I am of opinion that there ought to be a central and controlling authority over the individual teachers, whether it be sought in a Minister of Instruction, or whether it be sought in the university itself. The last point upon which I wish to lay my opinion before the Commission is the desirability of estab- blishing one or more chairs in the Theological Faculty, eligibility to which need not depend upon the candi- dates being in orders, or upon subscription to any theological articles or creeds. The foundation, I think, should be laid for a School of Critical or Scientilic Theology beside, or instead of the School of Dog- matic and Apologetic Theology, which we at present possess, and which is alone represented in the uni- versity professoriate. I believe that in a scientific age, and in a scientific society, theologians committed in early life, and more or less all their lives long, to the pursuit, not of truth, but of reasons for established opinions or beliefs authoritatively given, cannot per- manently command assent or confidence as theoretical teachers. I believe the danger which is at present threatening theological studies is, that all students of ability and zeal may turn from them as from a region where only discord and darkness prevail, and where any attempt at free inquiry, or an introduction of the spirit of science (natural or historical), is attended by considerable material and social penalties. The result of this could only be greater and greater alienation between the scientific lay mind and the dogmatic clerical profession. The best chance, or one of the best chances (I do not speak here of the moral and personal claims of religious lives), for securing in the future that the various studies comprised under the title of theology should not be tossed aside, disregarded. and ignored by men scientifically trained (and I think it will be granted that more and more of our youth will be scientifically trained, as well in the narrower sense of the term as in the wider, by which science may be made to include historical methods, and anthropological subjects), is to provide that this depart- ment of research and of instruction should be intrusted to men who are to a certain extent at liberty to pursue their studies unembarrassed by any dogmatic, tests. I am aware that although there is inore than one very liberal theological faculty in Germany and in Holland, yet so much has not been done there in the way of constituting a free fiiculty of theology as I now suggest. The theological faculties in Germany still exist nominally to train men for the ministerial office. While that is so even the most liberal is liable to be checked by practical considerations, or the doctrine is avowed that there is one truth for the lecture room and another for the pulpit. It is in great part to this fact that I should ascribe the notorious and growing indifference of the scientific mind in Germany to theology, evinced among other things by the rapid decline in the sale of theological literature and by the decline in the number of theological students. It is to anticipate a similar alienation in England that I suggest the foundation of theological chairs uncon- ditioned b}' any dogmatic tests or subscriptions, and England has special motives for such foundations which do not exist in Germany. I refer to the fact that millions of our fellow subjects profess various faiths, Mahometanism, Parseeism, and Brahminism, with dogmatic systems as logical and well developed as our own theologies, whether Romanist, Anglican of any })arty, or Protestant of any sect, and that it is all but futile to expect to convert such persons into accepting any of our own dogmatic theologies. At any rate I submit that it is very desirable that the religious and theologies of the world should be studied in a truly scientific manner, and to secure such study there might well be a professorship of comparative theology. It is not less desirable that Jewish and Christian antiquities and literature should be studied in a truly scientific spirit, and to secure that study there should be professorships or readerships of Hebrew and Old Testament criticism, of New Testament criti- cism, and of cognate subjects. The foundation of such a faculty might have consequences of practical importance over and above the indirect gain of lifting a depart meut of study into the liberal air of science. The universities have been so far nationalised that they are now open to persons of all creeds, churches, ami parties ; but practically only laymen of other pro- fessions than the Anglican Church are as yet educated here. We are still unvisited, for the most part, by those who form the ministry in all sects and churches except the Established Church ; they are still educated at local colleges, or at the University of London, or, I suppose, at the Scotch universities. And hence not only do they miss the many peculiar advantages wdiich Oxford offers, but they are cut off from association with the laity ol' their own body, who, until tests w'ere abolished here, were educated to some extent at the local colleges of their respective sects. It is not impossible that the creation of a theological faculty, not compelled to teach in the interests of the Establishment, might attract to Oxford many of those preparing for the various ministries in the country. Its further action may easily be anticipated. In the first instance, men who came in contact with such teaching might continue to subscribe the special dogmatic tenets of their sects, even as the so-called broad church clergy have managed still to subscribe the articles ; but gradually the way would be prepared for a ministry of religion free from dogmatic subscription of any kind, and a great step would be gained towards that reorganisation of ihe religious life and agencies of society in harmony with science which must take ])lace sooner or later, if religion is to be permanent. To show that I am not speaking entirely in the air, I should like to be allowed to read a few brief extracts UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ! — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 309 from a work upon tlie ecclesiastical institutions of Holland which illustrate what I have been saying almost in practical working. The work is a pamphlet on the ecclesiastical institutions of Holland by a gentleman of the name of Wickstead. It has been attempted in Holland to create and work ecclesiastical institutions apart from doctrinal or dogmatic tests. In 1854- there was an attempt made to give a reading or interpretation of a very liberal character to the existing formidtc, and in the first instance it was accepted by all the then representatives of what is there called modern theology. They thought at that time that they could work very happily under it, but in process of time practically the shoe began to pinch, and the peoj)le who had been brought up under the modern theology, “ the moderns,” began to find it more and more difficult even to subscribe the liberal interpretation which had been put upon the old formula;. So in the years 1864 and 186.3 the synod of the national church of Holland was memorialised, and an attempt was made to obtain an abolition of all doctrinal restrictions. In the synod of 1872, Diest Lorgion, Professor of Theology at Groningen, one of the national universities, brought forward a scheme for removing all doctrinal pledges whatsoever in the case of pastors and of members of the Reformed Church. That scheme was not accepted. Two years later a fresh attemj)t was made, and the synod in 1874 drew up an article, in which it practically assigned a merely historical value to the doctrines contained in the Netherlands Confession, the Heidelberg Catechism, and the Canons of the Synod of Dort, asserting that those formed the historical foundation of the Reformed Church of the Netherlands. Then the memorial pro- ceeded : “ Inasmuch as this doctrine is not confessed “ with sufficient unanimity by the community, there “ can under the existing circumstances be no “ possibility of maintaining the doctrine in the “ ecclesiastical sense. The community building on “ the principles of the church as manifested in “ their origin and development, continue to con- “ fess their Christian faith and thereby to form “ the expression which may in course of time once “ more become the adequate and unanimous con- “ fession of the church. Meantime care for the “ interests of the Christian church in general, and the “ Reformed in particular, quickening of C'.hristian “ religion and morality, increase of religious know- “ ledge, preservation of order and unity, and further- “ ance of love for king and fatherland, are ever the “ main object of all to whom any ecclesiastical office is “ entrusted ; and no one can be rejected as a member or “ teacher, who complying with all other requirements “ declares himself to be convinced in his own conscience, “ that in compliance with the above-named principles he “ may belong to the Reformed Church of the Nether- “ lands.” That article, tliough drawn up by a synod, has not been accepted by the church at large ; and at present I believe in Holland, at .any rate at the time when this pamphlet was written, in the year 1875, it seemed that the two elements in the church must separate, and that what they call the modern theology or the “moderns” there would have to quit the Reformed Church. However, the remarkable thing about Holland is, that there are existing in Holland beside the Established Church of the country more than one Christian church or sect organised without any doctrinal Iprmula as its basis. That is the case, for instance, with the so-called Remonstrants and it is the case with the Baptists. 4659. {Prof Smith.) I confess I do not quite see the bearing of this upon the business of the University Commission. Tou will excuse, me for the interrup- tion ? — I have suggested the desirability of founding chairs in the theological faculty without its being necessary for the holders to have any doctrinal test or subsci ii)tion. The bearing is upon the possibility, for instance, of educating a religious ministry for a re- ligious society apart from doctrinal subscriptions, and that i should submit has some relation to the question in hand. 4660. (Sir M. W. Ridley.) Would it not be rather OXFORD. more to the point if you could show some country where it had been successful? — It has been so far successful that there are religious societies existing in Jj ‘ Plolland without any doctrinal tests. 3 Xov. 1877. 4661. {Dr. licllamy.) Are there not such denomi- nations here in England too ? — We have no oppor- tunity in Oxford of assisting them, especially in their ministry, and that would be obtained by the founda- tion of a chair such as I ])ropose. I will not detain the Commission further by reading numerous extracts which bear upon the question, if I may read this one, which refers more especially to the theological faculties in the universities. This writer says : “ The “ only formal vestige, so far as I know, of the ancient “ dominancy of the Reformed Church is now to be “ found in the relation in which the Theological “ Faculties of the three national universities stand “ to it. The professors of theology at the national “ universities must be qualified as Reformed pastors, “ and are ex officio occasional preachers in the uni- “ versity cities. This exclusive privilege is I believe “ the only remains of any special connexion between “ the State and the Reformed Church, and as is naively “ observed by a Reformed writer, ‘ However satis- “ ‘ factory these arrangements may be to the Reformed “ ‘ Church, it is out of harmony with the spirit of the “ ‘ age and cannot survive the next Universities Bill.’ “ It is sincerely to be hoped that the theological “ faculties will still be maintained, though not in the “ special interest of the Reformed Church ; but the “ question is hotly debated, and it is very possible “ that the theological faculty as such will be “ abolished, and the theological chairs and subjects “ distributed amongst the literary and philosophical “ faculties.” The bearing of that upon what I have to say is this : I submit that unless a provision of some such kind is made in Oxford the time will come sooner or later when that question will also arise in Oxford, owing to the growing alienation between the scientific and the theological sections of the community, as to whether theology shall be retained as a real subject at all. It is as it were to anticipate such a possible state, of things that I venture to suggest the creation of such a chair or chairs. 4662. (Prof. Smith.) One particular proposal that you have made is, I understand, to establish a chair of Hebrew in addition to the present Regius chair? — ■ It would be, I think, so very unpractical and perhaps undesirable to suggest that the present theological chairs should be diverted from their present conditions, that I had rather put it in the form that a fresh chair should be created. There is room 1 think in Oxford for more than one te.tchcrof Hebrew. 4663. If I understand you rightly, you think it eminently unfair that when a Nonconformist comes here and desires to learn Hebrew, he should be unable to receive any public instruction in Hebrew, unless he ,goes to the Regius Professor of Hebrew, who is bound to be a clergyman of the Church of England ? — I hold it to be so. 4664. Especially when 3 'ou know that it is con- tended that it is impossible to separate the teaching of Hebrew from the teaching of theological opinion ? — Certainly that renders the case stronger. 4665. (Chairmcm.) Do you suppose that a person who is preparing for the ministry of a Nonconformist or of the Roman Catholic Church would be better pleased to go to a teacher as to whose religious conviction there was no security of any sort or kind whatever ? — In the case of the Roman Catholics, certainly not; but I think that many Nonconformist bodies might more and more be induced to educate their ministers here. 'fhe advantages which Oxford offers are so great, and the expenses of an Oxford educatii)n are by various methods, such as the extension of the system of unattached students, and so on, brought .so much more within the range of smaller means, that I think it is quite conceivable that if such advantages were offered, we might find the Nonconformist ministers coming to Q q 3 310 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. R. W. Macan, Esq., M.A. 3 Nov. 1877. Rev, R. Main, M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. Oxford as Nonconformist laynien do now, and there- fore to a certain extent might avoid the alienation wliich has actually taken place,- at any rate socially between the laymen and the ministers in Noncon- formist bodies, who formerly used to be educated together at the local colleges of their bodies, but who now are no longer so educated in consequence of the laymen coming to Oxford. 466b. {Prrf. Smith.) At any rate, you think it would be fair that there should be another chance of a man’s receiving instruction in Hebrew than from a professor who is connected with a faculty of Anglican theology? — Certainly ; but I do not restrict the claims of what I may call the critical theology to purely educational functions. I think it is desirable that the scientific study of theology should be represented in the university. 4667. ( Chairman.) You do not confine your views to Hebrew, but you extend it to the whole domain of theology ? — Certainly. 4668. {Prof. Smith.) Are you aware that it has been under the consideration of some persons who are not immediately connected with the university to establish here a lectureship in theology entirely free from all tests or similar restrictions, with the view of promoting the objects to which you have referred 7 — I am not aware that any such proposition has been definitely conceived, or put in anything like working order, but I am aware that feelers, if I may so speak, have been thrown out in that direction. 4669. Would you not think it more desirable that anything of that kind that was done should be done by voluntary effort, than that it should be done by diverting academical funds to such a controversial purpose ? — I do not recognise that as a controversial purpose ; I should recognise a scheme of concurrent endowment, or of the endowment of a number of pro- fessorships in various dogmatic theologies or subject to tests, as a controversial purimse ; but I submit that the foundation of a chair unfettered by any subscription has not a controversial character. 4670. Are you aware that it is proposed, certainly by one, and probably by more colleges in this uni- versity, to appropriate fellowships to the study of theology without imposing any restriction ? — I was not aware of that. 4671. Would you be disposed from the view which you take of this matter to approve of such a pro- posal ? — Highly. 4672. You consider that in that way something might be done for the maintenance of theological learning amongst the laity as well as amongst the clergy ? — If the fellowships in question were given without any restriction, in that case something might and would be done to maintain theological interest amongst the laity as well as amongst the clergy. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to Monday next at 10 o’clock. OXFORD. Monday, 5th November 1877. Present : The Right Honourable LORD SELBORNE in the Chair. The Right Hon. Montague Bernard, D.C.L. The Rev. James Bellamy, D.D. Sir Matthew White Ridley, Bart., M.P. Professor H. J. Smith, M.A. The Rev. ' The Rev. Robert Main, M.A. 4673. {Chairman.) We wish to be assisted byaknow- ledge of your views as to the relations which now exist, and those which it might be desirable to establish, between tbe observatory of which you have charge, and the University Observatory in connexion with the museum. We may assume for this purpose that it is immaterial whether the Commissioners have or have not powers to deal with the Radcliffe Trust. If they have they can exercise them, and if they have not they might make recommendations, which no doubt the Radcliffe Trustees would consider. 1 should like to know first whether you have any general view upon the subject before I ask you any par- ticular questions ? — I think there cannot be a doubt that if that observatory should continue to develop itself it would be necessary that there should be some understanding about the course of observations, and the operations of the two observatories, so that they might not be repeating the same work or standing as it were in each other’s way. I think that the subject is very simple. At the present time there is very little in common between the operations of the two observatories. The chief astronomical work of the Radcliffe Observatory is performed by the meridian circle, and the chief work of the other observatory, as far as it is purely astronomical, is done by the equatorial. r. Verb Battle and T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretaries. (Radcliffe Observer), examined. and is extra meridianal work. In addition to that they take the physics of astronomy which we do not touch. We have not instruments provided for the purpose, and therefore at present we do not touch each other at any points which injure our separate efficiency. I have had sent to me a copy of a paper which Professor Pritchard has submitted to the Commissioners after his examination, and which touches upon one or two points upon which it is desii'able perhaps that I should say a word. His proposition seems to be that the Radcliffe trustees should furnish a large transit circle of the first class, such as is common now in many observatories. That is a most important suggestion, and it is desirable in fact that the Radcliffe Observa- tory, which is an observatory of the first class, and has done very capital work in all the departments which it has undertaken, should be furnished with an instrument at least equal to that in most other observatories of the same standing. I cannot say that that is so at present. I should not have been prepared myself to make such a request, because I am very well satisfied with our present transit- circle. It belonged to Mr. Carrington, and was bought through me for the Board of Trustees, and it has proved to be a very valu- able instrument. It has a 5-inch object glass, a very good one, and without illumination of the w'ires we UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 311 can observe comfortably stars of between the eighth and ninth magnitudes. That is perhaps all that I have proposed to myself at the present time in my plan of observation ; at the same time it is desirable undoubtedly that there should be an instru- ment capable of doing more work of a character which requires a larger instrument, and I think the only difficulty would be to know whether the trustees would be willing to incur the expense of such an instrument, which would be very con- siderable. 4674. Can you say what the expense would be ? — I think that the instrument itself 1 could not put at less than 2,000/., and the alterations of the build- ing would cost something considerable. Professor Smith will remember that our circle room certainly would not hold an instrument larger than it has ; and I had great difficulty in fact in enclosing It with its collimators in the pi-esent room ; 1 just managed to do it. Our present room in which we work is 19 feet in breadth. The Greenwich transit room (and we should want one of the same size) is 36 feet ; and it would therefore be necessary to carry out the building from the south to the north, (leaving the front as it stands at present) considerably into the garden, and to rebuild that wing altogether, except the front, which would be a considerable expense; and if we were to put all the contingent expenses at another 1,000/., making 3,000/., I think that that might be somewhat near the mark. Of course that is a rough estimate. 4675. {Prof. Smith.) What was the cost of the Carrington transit circle ? — I bought it very cheaply of Mr. Carrington; I gave 450/. for it, but it cost 600/. originally. I purchased also four more micro- scopes, which cost 50/. ; and the alteration of the apartment and the work of various kinds that was necessary, cost pretty nearly 100/., so that I might say that 600/. covered the whole. That I consider a very cheap instrument. Of course I should be very willing to undertake (although I would rather that it had been deferred until after my tenure of office) all the trouble, and that would be considerable, which would be necessai'y for the erection of a new instru- ment, but that falls within the line of my duty and needs not to be mentioned. 4676. For how long would your meridian observa- tions have to be suspended if this change were made ? — I should think at least for 12 months. One cannot say accurately, but I should take care that they should not be altogether suspended. I should put into use the transit instrument which we have at present, which would supply one element and also give the time, which is an important thing in a fixed observatory, so that there would be no sensible in- convenience : at the same time I should take care to employ the assistants in the evening in computing, so that there should be no loss to the establishment as it were. We could get up arrears of comput- ing work and various things of that kind, which I consider are almost equally important with the observing. In fact I have sometimes thought that it would be desirable to suspend observations for some time until we could publish the great catalogue of stars, which is in preparation, and take in hand another catalogue for which we have already the materials. The catalogue which we have in hand will contain 4,400 stars, and will be one of the largest that has been published in this century so far as I know, except Johnson’s First Radcliffe catalogue. The second will contain at least between 3,000 and 4,000 stars, a great number of them additional, so that .these two catalogues will be of very great importance. I say this merely to show that there Avould be no great inconvenience in suspending the observations for a time. 4677. {Chairman.) The structural alterations of which you spoke would be such as would make it impossible for you to use your present meridian instru- ment at the same time that they were going on ? — Yes, because the room must be cleared, and additional foundations made, and the whole of that wing must be altered very essentially. 4678. {Prof. Smith.) Is the room high enough ? — I think it is ; it is a tolerably high room. I do not think that we should have occasion to alter the arrangement of the wing as viewed from the front, which would be a great point in an architectural building of that character. 4679. {Chairman.) Are there any other points in the paper of Professor Pritchard which you wish to notice ? — The second one was with resj)ect to the library. Ours is undoubtedly a very valuable library and it ought to be made as useful as possible, but I should feel jealous myself, and I think — but I have had no opportunity of speaking of it to the Board of Trustees — that they also would feel jealous at giving another independent institution the power of borrowing books, so as to make it incumbent upon the officers of the Radcliffe Observatory to supply them whenever they might be asked for. There is no practical difference between us. Professor Prit- chard has been in the habit of borrowing books, and they have not only never been refused, but every information has been given, and he has had them as he chose without any difficulty. 4680. {Mr. Bernard.) So he told us, — indeed that he had had no difficulty in obtaining any works which he wished to have? — No; and I should think that it had better be left as it is at present, but of course that would be a question for the Board of Trustees. 4681. {Chairman.) Supposing that there were any- thing like an organic union of the two institulions by some new statute, that point would naturally settle itself between the Observei-s at the one or the other accord- ing to their mutual wants ? — Yes. The only thing which I see in this question of organic union is that the reciprocity seems to be all on one side. The university asks for certain things of us, and has asked for a very valuable gift, that of a transit circle, but so far as I can see it has nothing to give in return. Of course in an organic union that ought not to be con- sidered, but at the same time we ought to have some advantages from the university correlative with those which we propose to give. Perhaps it would come out in the course of time, but I think that should be considered. 4682. Putting aside pecuniary considerations, are there any advantages from the university which it would occur to you to suggest : I mean anything that you want which the university could supply ? — I think not. My own relation for instance to the university is established already; it was provided for when the separation took place between the offices of Radcliffe Observer and Savilian Professor. It must be remembered that up to the end of Professor Rigaud’s directorship the two offices were combined in one person, the Savilian Professor was also the Rad- cliffe Observer; and therefore there is nothing in that suggestion of Professor Pritchard’s that our obser- vatory had a present from the university of an object glass ; at that time it was under the management of the university in some degree. 4683. What is the present academical status of the Radcliffe Observer officially ? — He ranks as a professor, I think. 4684. There is nothing more in the way of acade- mical status that could be suggested, is there ? — No ; I think the arrangement is very good at present, we are left independent, which is an advantage, and we should look jealously to it that this independence be maintained. Whatever union there might be between the two for mutual assistance, the trustees no doubt will take care that the Radcliffe Observer should not be brought at all within the government of the uni- versity ; for instance, that the university should not have power to call me up in convocation for anything that has happened in the observatory, which was the case in former days. 4685. I suppose that practically, although the Observers might be called to account, they did not often give any occasion for it ? — No. OXFORD. Rev. R. Main, M.A 5 Nov. 1877 Qq i 312 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD Rev. R. Main, M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. 4l586. (3Ir. Bernard.') How was that the case in former clays ? Was it because the two offices were united or because there was some uncertainty as to the relations between the observatory and the uni- versity ? — I think it was simply owing to the impeifect connexion of the two institutions. A university officer always occupied the place of the Radcliffe observer, whilst at the same time the observatory itself belonged to a different body, and was in fact the sole ])roperty of a different body. 4687. On behalf of the Radcliffe trustees you naturally feel that the «.ifficers of the trust should be independent of the university, but do you think it desirable for any other reason that their independence should be maintained? — I think so under the present circumstances, unless the two establishments could be merged in one, as in the course of years it is possible that they may. It may be found that one observatory well supplied with instruments and with a director, a man capable of undertaking a good portion of the work, and with instruments and assistants likewise, would be able to do all that was requisite, hut .so long as they are independent, and so long as the Obser- vatory is the property of the Radcliffe trustees, I do not see that any much closer connexion could take place. 4688. The object of my (juestion was rather to ascertain whether you thought that the existence of those tw'o independent institutions with their two different observatories, although their work may be somewhat different, was a good thing, or whether it involved any waste of power or any difficulties in the way of co-operation or otherwise? — No; I think not. I think it is quite as well that the arrangements of the observatory for instance of every sort should be left to the Radcliffe Trustees, as is the case at pre- sent ; it is quite as convenient, and there is nothing that particularly concerns the university about them which would require them to be referred to a delegacy of the university. 4689. The Savilian Observatety i s increasing its apparatus, and beginning I suppose to do more in the way of observation than has been done before ; may there not be some difficulty, do you think, in arranging the observations to be carried on by the two observa- tories so as to prevent a waste of power, and a waste of work ? — I think at present, as I have tried to explain, there is no such thing ; so far as I know there is no waste of work, and, with ordinary care, there never will be, hut there is one thing which I might mention. I think that Professor Pritchard’s idea, (and I will only say his idea, and I say it without authority, though he did talk it over with me), but his idea was to propose to the Commissioners to have a large transit circle for the University Observatory. I told him that I did not understand that when I became one of the Committee for drawing up the report on the requirements of the ob.servatory, and that I thought I should feel myself comj)elled to oppose it, for it was going beyond the functions which the observatory had originally proposed to itself, and entering upon a line of work which would be essentially different, and which would require much more elaborate apparatus and staff than would at first be contemplated. For instance, in the work of the great transit-circle, two assistants would be required, and the first thing would be to come upon the university for the annual expense of those assis- tants, we will say. Then the care and responsibility of the professor, who has enough on his shoulders already, would be proportionately increased, and I think you will find that there must be in addition to the professor a quasi director of the observatory, if the operations of the observatory were extended so far, and at the same time, the work being of the same character at both observations, there would be this difficulty w'hich has been suggested. But, sup- posing them to have there, as the jtrofessor now pro- poses, a meridian circle principally for the purpose of teaching, there would be no interference the one with the other. The Radcliffe Observatory wmuld he supposed to do the meridian rvork, and the other according to Professor Pritchard’s owm idea would depend upon it even for observations of stars which he might wamt for comparison with comets or planets. 4690. {Prof. Smith.) You think that the division betw'een the tw'o branches of astronomy is quite a natural one ? — Quite a natural one. I have not men- tioned that one important part of our own organisation, and of our observations, consists in meteoroioiry — that of course is quite independent of the other, and quite out of the range of the other observatory. 4691. If I understand you rightly you think that it would be a waste of power if meridian observations were undertaken in a systematic manner at the Savilian Observatory ?— I think so, they could be of no use if taken in an}' other way than in connexion with those minute adjustments which require to be constantly kept up ; it would not do to take it up now' and then, and make a few observations ; these could not be reduced accurately unless observations for adjustment were made from day to day. We know the historv of our instrument with a minuteness at which people would be surprised, and the history of certain changes which are due not merely to the instrument, and if we had not all that knowdedge we should not be able to give any results which would be worth much. There- fore if any instrument is used it must be used well, and if it is not used I should say it is not right for the university to be burdened with an instrument of that class. 4692. Does not what you say point to the advisa- bility of keeping the tw'o institutions separate, and at the same time of taking measures that they should work harmoniously ? — I think so. I think that they are at the present time working pretty nearly as w'ell as they can ever work under any system. 4693. Considering that, if the tw'o offices were com- bined, the duty of teaching would be superadded to all the various duties at present performed in such an obsei vatory as that at Greenwich, do you not think that that would be too much to place under the care of any one director ? — Quite so. The professorial duties, and the duties of direction and management of a great observatory, could not be well undertaken together. I have no hesitation in saying so. I had occasion to see that as a matter of history once — I happened many years ago to undertake to write a review of a book published by Loomis on the Progress of Astronomy in America, and in the course of my reading I was surprised to find the number of large telescopes attached to universities in the United States, and the small number of them that were really in actual use. One professor rvill take it up witli great zeal, but his successor does not see it in the same light, and I am afraid that that may he the difficulty even xvith respect to the professorship here. Professor Pritchard is a man of wonderful energy, who has managed to combine the two in a way which many men could not do if they would, but it is not every one, even if he had the power, that would be willing to do so much. I do not say that any man placed there would not do his duty, but he would begin to consider what the limits of his duty were. 4694. Referring to the Iladclifi’e Observatory, do you think it desirable that any part of its woi'k should be of an educational kind or not ? — Not since we have had the other Observatory. I have, as Professor Smith knows, actually trained two or three men in the Radcliff’e Observatory, for instance Mr. Bosanquet of St. John’s College, and Mr. Lewis, a Fellow of Oriel College, and two or three others whom I forget now, but at all events there were several that were trained by me to a great extent in observing at that time. I felt during the infirm state of health of the then pro- fessor, Professor Donkin, it rvas incumbent upon me to do what I could to su{)ply the want, knowing the connexion which ought to exist between the two institutions. 4695. But you are of opinion that a meridianal observatory cannot be made into an educational insti- rNIVKKSITY Ob' OXKOUl) COMMISSION': — MINUTKS OF KVIOKNCF. 31.‘i tution ? — J :i )t, coiisidoring tlie very Iianl work tliat there is. •t696‘- That is one reason, is it not, for maintaining a certain amount of independence in tlie relations of tlie lladcliffe Observatory to the University (Jbserva- tory ? — I think so. 4()97. Would tliere be any difficulty in arranging that such information with regard to tlie places of certain stars as may be required at the Savilian Obser- vatory should be supplied from the Radcliffe Obser- vatory ? — Not at all. 4698. Would that involve a considerably increased amount of trouble at the Radclifie Observatory ? — Very little, it would merely be adding a few more stars to our catalogue. Our working catalogue which is in use at the present time contains 4,000 or 5,000 stars, and it would be adding perhaps about 20 to those. 4699. Would the Savilian Professor send over to you in the morning, and ask you to be so kind as to observe certain stars that evening ; would that be the usual course of proceeding ? — No, that would not be requisite at all, we could observe them during the season when they are visible in the night, and their places must be reduced in the ordinary way, or if he wanted them more immediately we could manage to supply them, but not with the ultimate corrections. It is to be understood ttiat the stars that he asked for would be observed in connexion with our year’s work as they come round in their season. 4700. He wants the stars in connexion with cometary observations ? — Yes. 4701. He determines the place of a comet, with regard to a star, and asks you for the place of the The witness star ? — Yes. I asked him why Greenwich did not supply him with it, but I understood from him that they had declined to do it. Greenwich used to be very liberal in that respect ; the Astronomer Royal would generally give any places that were asked for, but it is of course no part of his duty. 4702. But you see no difficulty in arranging a har- monious working in that respect between the two institutions ? — No difficulty and no increase of labour to us that is worth mentioning. 4703. Are you or are you not of opinion that if meridianal astronomy were established at the Savilian Observatory, as it would be by placing a great meri- dian instrument there, tlu interests of astronomical physics and photographic astronomy might siilfer seriously? — I should think so, unless a special director be appointed, and it would require additional staff, a staff at least double what it has now, and a director who should undertake that duty inde])endently of any professorial functions ; that is, it would require what we might call a reader to the professor, and he would require to have an assistant. 1 do not know that there would be any very great difficulty in that, because there are readerships attached to other pro- fessorships already. 4704. {Chairman.) Would it require additional buildings ? — I am not prepared to answer that ques- tion. They are enlarging the buihling now, but so far as I know, the idea of a large transit circle was not mooted then, and I should not be surprised if it would recpiiie an additional building. 4 hey are enlarging it now principally for a large lecture room, but 1 do not think there was any idea at that time of a transit circle. withdrew. OXFOUl). Rev. R. Main, M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. JosKPii Prkstwicii, Esq., M.A. (Professor of Geology), examined. 4705. {Chairman.) The Commissioners wish to hear from you what you have to suggest to them as the wants of the geological dcjiartment of tlu' Museum and of tlie Natural Science School. I see upon your note you propose to tell us something as to the extent of the collections which are, and of those which are not arranged, and the space which is occupied and unoccupied? — The collections can broadly be divided into two parts, those collections which are put in the Museum available for the students and for the public, and those parts which yet remain in drawers or are not unpacked. As to the first part I have made a rough estimate of the total number, and it amounts to I think about 23,000 specimens which are arranged, and which are put out in the museum in the glass cases. Of these about 17,000 are named, with the species, the locality, and the formation, and are therefore perfectly available for the students, and 6,000 remain to be named. Then of the collections which still remain in drawers or are not unpacked, the number is ex- tremely large. I find it difficult to make an estimate of them, but I should say that not less than from 30,000 to 40,000 specimens yet await arrangement and room. M'^ith regard to the space, the sj)ace which can be used is almost entirely occupied. There is very little room for the largest speci- mens. The glass cases are almost all full. There is still however a good deal of drawer room which may take probably .-everal thousand specimens. But drawer specimens are not so well seen, or as available for students as they are when they are put out. There is, however, at present no immediate pressure for room, but I foresee that the time will arise, especially when we add to our large specimens, when additional room will be necessary. There is a good deal to do yet in the arrangement and naming of the exhibited collections and this will occupy the professor probably for some time to come more pro- fitably than in adding to the collections. 4706. Have you considered what are the probable future requirements in respect to space ? — I have not with exactness ; I merely foresee, taking the pre- sent collections as a standard, that we should probably Q C223. require as much space again within the next 20 or 30 years. The collections in many cases are very fairly complete, es[)ecialiy' in the secondary rocks, the rocks that cro]) out around Oxford ; but there are many gaps in the fossils of the old rocks esi)eeiall y, and we rerpiire great additions to them. 4707. Do your collections tend to increase rapidly ? — They have not increased rapidly during the last few years. The great object has been to arrange and name rather than to add to the collections, but we have still a number of specimens in drawers and not unpacked amounting to between 30,000 and 40,000, and which may shortly require a good deal of further room. 4708. Is it desirable that they all should be openly shown, and not packed up in drawers ? — A large number should be shown. In a few cases the drawers are sufficient, but it is very desirable in all cases, especially in teaching collections, that the larger portion should be exhibited for the use of the students and the general public. 4709. The main object of this collection is in con- nexion with teaching, is it not ? — The main object is that of teaching. Of course it is open to the public, but the jmblic have not access to the drawers, and therefore it is very desirable that most sj)ecimens should be exposed and seen. 4710. You want space also for a lecture room, and for other purposes, do you not? — At present the space for lectures is quite ample, but if it should happen, as I hope will be the case at some future period, that geology should with astronomy and other sciences take its place in the honour examinations and share with chemistry, physics, and biology in the distinctions conferred by the university, then the space might no longer be sufficient. From the im- portance of the subject and from the range of studies I think that such a position should be assigned to geology. 4711. You think it is desirable that geology should have a more definite and recognised place in the course of university examinations ? — I do. 4712. {Prof. Smith.) The difficulty which meets R r Prestwieh, Esq., M.A. 314 - UNJVEKSITY Of OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Prestwick, Esq., M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. you in that proposal is, is it not, that geology requires a very considerable amount of preliminary know- ledge before it can be studied in any advanced or scientific manner ? — Yes. I regard it as essential for tlie study of geology that the students should have a knowledge of chemistry, and physics, and biology. The general bearings, however, of the subject, and its application to the great cosmical questions constitute a separate branch of the study. Of course it must be studied with that general knowledge as a foundation, but it constitutes also an independent study of its own. 4713. {Chairman.) Do you want space for private rooms ? — My jirivate rooms are sufficient for ordinary purposes, but it is now so essential for the geologist to make chemical analyses and a certain number of physical experiments, that a small room as a labora- tory is very much needed at present. 47 1 4. What assistance is needed in the way of attendants ? — An assistant 1 consider important. A good deal of my time is occupied by my lectures, and I am present at the museum from time to time seeing to and arranging the collection, but it is desirable I think that there should be somebody in constant atten- dance so as to explain any inquiries that may be made by the general visitor, and also for the purpose of teaching and demonstration to the students. 4715. Is there no sudi arrangement at present? — No, the subject too is now so very large that paleon- tology constitutes quite a distinct branch from geology proper; in fact no man can embrace the whole of |)ala'ontology without devoting himself entirely to tlie subject, and therefore an assistant or teacher of palaeontology must sooner or later become necessary. 4716. Is that all that you have to suggest as to the needs of this department? — That embraces all the main points. Probably, however, if you will allow me to })ut in a copy of the letter which I addressed to the Vice-Chancellor of the university in December last on the requirements of the chair of geology, it, with the jn’evious letter of Professor Phillips to which it refers, will explain my views more clearly {deliver- ing in the satne). 34, Broad Street, Oxford, Dear Mr. Vice-Chancellor, December 20, 1876. Referring to the letter of the late Professor Phillips addressed to the Vice-Chancellor of the University on the 27th November 1873, on the requirements of the geological chair, may I venture to make a few additional remarks ? Professor Phillips, after some general observations on the geological and pakeontological collections, in which I quite agree, jiroceeds to express an opinion that the appointment of a competent assistant to aid in the arrangement of those collections and for class teaching was most desirable. This opinion I entirely endorse. Assistance in keeping up the collections and in naming, and attendance during certain hours of the day is needed. I would further observe that geology in its petrological section now depends so essentially upon chemistry, that a small laboratory, with a moderate amount of apparatus, has become very necessary, both for the purposes of instruc- tion and for carrying out subjects of investigation and research on the part of the professor as also of the students. This, I think, is all that is needed for the present, but looking at the rapid growth of geology, it may eventually be desirable to have a lecturer or a professor of palaeon- tology, together with another on chemical geology, includ- ing petrology. Another consequence of the rapid growth of the science is the inadequate time now afforded to lectures, for I think it very undesirable to extend a course over more than an academical year. Instead of the 24 lectures now given, 36 or 40 would not be more than sufficient to embrace the whole subject. This is apart from the term given to informal instruction, and instruction in the field. 'Phe needs, therefore, I would draw attention to for the present are, — 1. One assistant or demonstrator in permanent charge of the collections under the direction of the pro- fessor. 2. A small laboratory for chemical analysis. And for future consideration, — 1. An assistant professor or lecturer on palaeontology. 2. An assistant professor or lecturer on ])etrology. 3. Additional space. Looking at the wide field open to the geologist, and to the circumstance that further ad\-ance becomes every day more difficult, I feel satisfied that for Oxford to keep in the front rank of instruction and investigation, the con- tinuous exertions and co-operation of men, each master of his own special branch, and all acting jointly in the pro- gress of their common science, geology, will be required. I am, &c. (Signed) Joseph Prestwich. 4717. You refer to that in your evidence as con- taining your opinion upon the subject ? — It explains my views more fully than I have now done upon the requirements of the chair of geology. 4718. {Mr. Bernard.) The assistant that you men- tioned just now would be a iierson, would he not, of the same class as you refer to in your letter ; an assistant to aid in the arrangement of your collections, and also in the class teaching ? — Yes. 4719. He would be employed, therefore, not only in showdng the collections, and taking care of them, but also in arranging them, and in teaching in the class ? — Yes. 4720. You would require I presume one of a supe- rior class ? — Yes ; a person well acquainted with paleontology, and under the direction of the Professor of Geology. 4721. {Prof. Smith.) Y”ou would give him the position of a demonstrator rather than that of a reader in the university ? — Yes. 4722. So that he would be appointed by the pro- fessor, and would be under his control ? — Yes. 4723. {Chairtnan.) In this letter you state that the urgent pressing needs are one assistant demon- strator to be in permanent charge of the collections, under the direction of the professor, and a small labo- ratory for chemical analysis, and you suggest as ibr future consideration, but not as pressing needs, an assistant professor or lecturer on pakcontology ; and also an assistant professor or lecturer on petrology ? — Yes; I think when the subject conies to be considered at a later period, from the rapid progress of science, that these further additions will be essential. 4724. Will you have the goodness to explain ex- actly what you mean by petrology as distinct from mineralogy ? — Petrology concerns the structural com- position of rocks, not the separate study of the forms of the component minerals, but the mineral character of the rock “ en masse ” — those various characters which the rocks assumed under different conditions of depth, heat, and structure. 4725. Is it clearly desirable that that should be separate from the Professorship of Mineralogy, or the Readership of Mineralogy ? — Yes, it is essential, be- cause the mineralogist only takes cognisance of the forms and shapes and structure of the minerals singly, without having regard to their geological position, and without having regard to their conditions in the com- position of rock masses. 4726. As I understand you, it is the stratification of the rocks and their relations to each other, rather than their mineral structure, which is the subject of petrology ? — Yes, the structure of rock masses in the field and the changes which they may have undergone in the course of time. 4727. {Prof. Smith.) Would it be difficult to find a person who could undertake the two departments, which we understand are distinct, of mineralogy and petrology — would that be difficult, or would it be per- haps impossible ? — No, I should think not. 4728. They are subjects, are there not, which run into one another, although they are distinct ? — Yes. It is just as possible that a mineralogist might take charge of the petrological section as that a geologist might to a certain extent take cliarge of the palaiontological section. 4729. {Chairtnan.) I suppose that every petrol ogist ought to be a mineralogist although every mineralogist need not be a petrologist? — Y^’es, that is the case. 4730. {Prof. Smith.) I think you said that in 20 or 30 years’ time, there might be considerable addi- tional space required for geology ; it is possible, is it not, that in that time there miglit be additional space UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 315 rc<|iiire(l for tlie zoological collections; 1 wish to ask you whether you consider it inadvisable that at that lime geology should be dismissed altogether from its present place in the court and in the galleries round it, and the space thus liberated devoted to zoology, whilst room was found for the geology in an additional building behind the museum? — I think it is very essential that the collections should be in juxta-posi- tion. To me for general purposes it would be imma- terial whether they remained in the present part of the museum, or whether they were transferred to a building attached to the present one. 4731. Do you consider the court and galleries well suited for the exhibition of geological specimens ? — I consider them extremely well suited, with the excep- tion of a small part under the corridor, where there is not sufficient light, but that only applies to one ])ortion of the east corridors. 4732. {Chairman.) Could that light be supplied by any improvement in the arrangement of the building? — I believe it is contemplated if any extension takes place to make the extension in an eastward direction, and therefore those galleries would, I presume, be very materially altered, and by such an alteration we should probably obtain the light required. 4733. No light could be obtained by putting in The witness t glass eyes into the floors of the upper gallery, coukl it ? — I have not given the matter sufficient attention to say what light might be so obtained, but if the present building were to be permanent, I should think that light might be obtained by some contrivance. 4734. {Prof. Smith.) Besides the demonstrator, you would require, would you not, for the department of geology, a skilled assistant of the superior workman class ? — Yes, such as we have at present to a certain extent. 4735. Do you consider that you ought to have the undivided services of a skilled workman for the pur- poses of the geological department ? — I have often felt the want of more assistance than I could obtain, for in the case of the person to whom you refer his time is occupied in other work, and very frequently I cannot obtain bis services for the purposes which I require. Of course in unpacking and the general arrangements, and in trimming and cleaning the speci- mens, and a great deal of minor work, a man’s time might be fully taken up, and is required in fact. 4736. Particularly wdien you begin working at those collections which are not yet exhibited ? — Yes ; the want of such assistance has prevented my getting on as rapidly as I should otherwise have done in putting but the collections which are not yet arranged. in withdrew. OXFORD. ./. Prestwick, Esq., M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. The Rev. John Wordsworth, M.A. (Tutor of Brasenose College), examined. 4737. {Chairtnan.) I understand that you have some observations which you wish to submit to the Commissioners as to the Professorship of Exegesis ? — I have had the good fortune to be associated as assis- tant lecturer with the Ireland Professor of Exegesis for rather over six years, from October 1870 to 1876. I have therefore formed some opinions as to the duties of the chair held by him. It seems to me very desir- able that the subject of the interpretation of Holy Scripture, including the Old as well as the New Testa- ment, should be placed on a level with the other chairs, either by the foundation of a new canonry at Christ Church, or by additions to the stipend o£ the present professorship. It seems so clear that the study of Holy Scripture is of the very first importance in a university which has any Faculty of Theology, that there can hardly be a doubt that some greater encouragement should be given to it at the present opportunity. There are also whole classes of subjects belonging to this department, such as the History of the Canon, the minute criticism of the text, the study of the chief versions and of ecclesiastical Greek, and the great subject of Biblical Archseology, which claim recognition, and for which no adequate provision is made. The present professor’s time is entirely occu- pied with the necessary lectures on the exegesis of such parts of Holy Scripture as are read for the schools, and when 1 was his assistant there was plenty ol’ the same work for me to do. Two readerships at least might fairly be asked for to be subordinated to this chaii', first, on the real matter, especially perhaps the Histoiy of the Canon and Biblical Archmology ; secondly, on the formal matter, namely, biblical and ecclesiastical Greek, including the Septuagint, and Textual Criticism. I say “ subordinated to this chair,” because I tbink it very important that the readers should not be left entirely without direction, but should be required to take counsel with the professor on what subjects they should lecture from time to time. 4738. Y’ou do not mention in that, I think, the sub- ject of the knowledge of the original texts ? — I mention textual criticism. 4739. You would include in that a knowledge of manuscripts ? — Yes, certainly. 4740. That includes, I presume, the first two heads which you have put down here as to the professorship of exegesis and the study of biblical and ecclesiastical Greek, or have you anything to add to that ? — I had thought of saying something on the study of the Septuagint, but as the Grinfield Lecture is of recent foundation I presume that no use could be made of it. and I am afraid that it is of very little use at present. The holder is required to give one lecture a term, and as he holds the lectureship only for two years, the result is meagre and patchy ; in fact the whole treat- ment of the subject is very inadequate. 4741. Althougbwe may have no compulsory powers over recent foundations, it may not be entirely with- out use to have anything mentioned to us which is worthy of consideration, because either by consent, or by some other means, arrangements might possibly be made ? — I venture to think that if the Grinfield foundation was appropriated as part of the sum required for the foundation of one of the two readerships which I mentioned, it would be doing more good than it is doing at present. 4742. In whose gift is the Grinfield Lectureship ? — I think it is in the gift of the Hebdomadal Council, or at any rate of a large board. 4743. {3Ir. Bernard.) I see that the regulation is that such lectures shall be given in each term as are approved by Convocation, do you know whether that was a part of the original foundation or not ? — I am sorry to say I do not know. 4744. {Chairman.) You at present yourself hold, do you not, the Grinfield Lectureship ? — Y"es ; I do. 4745. Of course you would be able, if you held any other readership to discharge the two duties in con- nexion with each other ? — The duties are very slight at present, but I venture to think that the general public would not feel the loss of that particular reader- ship very much. 4746. I understand that you would recommend in connexion with the Professor of Exegesis a reader in biblical and ecclesiastical Greek ? — Certainly. 4747 . If the endowment of this Grinfield Lecture- ship is not very large, it might be combined practically with a readership such as you recommend, might it not, by giving to the person who holds the Grinfield Lecture that readership ? — Yes, I suppose it might ; I do not know whether it could be combined without changing the present appointment by tbe Hebdomadal Council. 4748. Still if the same person were a reader under the Professor of Exegesis and Grinfield Lecturer his two duties would naturally coalesce ? — Certainly. 4749. Will you give us your view as to the next point which you have noted down, with reference to the use of the Divinity School ? — The Divinity School is at present used only for the reading of exercises for divinity degrees and for university examinations which begin about the fifth week in each term. As R r 2 lieu. J. Wordsworth, M.A. 316 UNIVKRSITY OF OXF'ORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. ./. Wordsworth, M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. soon as the new schools are built, it should m my opinion be fitted up as a lecture room, and restored to the use of the Divinity Professors. The Latin chapel in which the Kegius Professor at present lectures is not a very convenient place, and that room in which the Professor of Exergesis lectures in the Clarendon building, is often, I understand, too full for the men to hear properly. The University of Cambridge is at this moment engaged in building a Divinity School, partly with the bequest of the late I’rofessor Selwyn. 4750. Is the Latin Chapel of which you speak a chapel in Christ Church Cathedral ? — Yes. 4751. Is that used for the private or public lectures of the Kegius Professor? — It is used for the public lectures of the Kegius Professor. 1752. Are all his lectures public, or are there any private lectures also ?— He is not obliged to give a private lecture, but when he was in good health he used to give private lectures to graduates. 1753. 'fhe Divinity School it has been stated to us would not be a very good place for classes to hear in, what have you to say upon that subject ? — 1 have never had any experience except on the occasion of the commemoration which was held there, when we heard pretty well I think. 4754. You ])erhaps are aware that there are views entertained by some persons as to other uses for which the Divinity School might be convenient ? — I have heard of something of the sort. I was not aware that anything was before the Commission on that point. 4755. You mean respecting the use of it by the llodleian ? — Yes. 1756. At all events you think that the present arrangements for giving the Kegius Professor’s lec- tures are not convenient? — I think it is very difficult for the men to take notes there, there are no proper desks for them, and if there is a large class they are very crowded and uncomfortable, and they are not facing you, and there are a great many of them who have to sit with their backs or sides to the lecturer. 4757. I suppose there is no objection with regard to any irreverence in the use of the church for that purpose ? — No, none whatever I think; indeed I think on the whole that it is a gain. 4758. Before we pass from that branch of the subject I would ask you whether you think it desirable that the functions of the Regius Professor of Divinity and of the Margaret Professor should be more definitely separated by statute than they are at pre- sent? It has been suggested to us that the subject of Ajjologetics might be regarded as especially belong- ing to the Regius Professor, and the subject of Doctrinal Theology to the Margaret Professor, would that be a practicable distribution of the subjects ? — I was not aware that that had been proposed. The statute says that the Kegius Professor is to lecture on Holy Scri])ture or some questions of Theology. I do not think that until perhaps quite recently (and not even recently should J say it was absolutely true) that any such division had been in practice. 4759. The Margaiet Professor has lectured on Doctrinal Theology uiiy, has he not? — I think he generally lectures on the text books, on Pearson and other books of that kind. 4760. Should you think that any such division was desirable or not ? — I should think it very undesirable that the Kegius Professor should give up the general treatment of Theology, on the contrary I should have thought that at the present day it was very desirable that the highest authority in the Itniversity should take, what I conceive to be, the highest subject. 4761. {Mr. Ikrtiard.) The Margaret Professor is bound, is he not, by his statute, to treat such parts of Theology as the University may assign to him ? — Yes, I think so. 4762. Therefore the university has power to assign to him any particular subject if it thinks fit ? — Yes. 4768. {Chairman.) If I rightly understand you, you would consider that the Kegius Professor covers the whole field of which particular departments are assigned to the other professors ? — I should not think that the Kegius Professor would be expected to lec- ture upon ecclesiastical history. I should think that he was rather departing from his function if he lectured on other subjects than dogmatic theology and Holy Scripture. 4764. Y’ou would not exclude him from Apologetics, would you ? — No, not from Apologetics. 4765. That is a term which I understand to he used to include the evidences and the connexion between natural and revealed religion ? — Yes. 4766. Will you now pass to the next point which you have noted, and which relates to fhe teaching of epigraphy and paleography ? — Those two most im- portant aids to all fruitful study of the past are entirely unrepresented among us as distinct branches of teach- ing. We have fortunately in the Bodleian a first-rate authority ever ready to give help on single points of manuscript criticism. But we have no security for the permanence of the study or for its being taught. With regard to inscriptions, we are even less fortunate, though they are naturally not without students. But it is very inconvenient to have no one on the spot to whom we can apply for a determination on any parti- cidar j)oint, such as the evidence from inscriptions, or the use or meaning of words, or the position of a town, or the date of an official. The way in which such minute knowledge of inscriptions is usetul in other studies seemingly remote needs very little illus- tration, but I may refer to Dr. Lightfoot’s discussion of “ Cffsar’s Household” in the Epistle to the Philii)- pians as a case in j)oint. It might be possible to attach to the Bodleian an extra under-librarian whose business should be to study palaeography, and to give private help to students ; and in the same way to attach a reader in epigraphy to the iMusenm of Clas- sical Antiquities, which will no doubt be founded sooner or later in this place. The university should also l>e enabled from time to time to send out special com- missioners to report upon MS. collections, or to co]>y inscriptions. 4767. With regard to the suggestion as to teaching epigraphy that might be connected with the Museum of Archa3ology ; and it has been suggested th; t what is called the (Jamera of the Radclilfe library, which is now used for a reading room, might on the whole be the best place for a Museum of Archasology. Is that your opinion ? — I should be almost afraid that it would not be large enough to take everything in, as I think we should require in such a museum a large number of casts of ancient statues, and also of inscri])tions and objects of that kind, and I really think that they would require a larger room than the Camera. 4768. Will you now go to your next point, which relates to the Craven Scholarships ? — The Craven Scholarships at present appear to be of no great value, except as distinctions to classical scholars who for some cause or other have failed in the Final Honour School of Literie Humaniores. I should venture to suggest that the two be founded into one, and that the holder be required to undertake certain work for the time he holds it, under the direction of the Professors of Greek and Latin. Whether this take place or not, it would seem very desirable that something should be done to encourage positive study amongst men w ho have just graduated. There are many pieces of literary work which require to be done and are not done because there is no provision for them, especially the collation of MSS. It might be jiossible for a University Board to have in hand funds for these purposes. Any public professor might be allowed to apply to such a board for a sufficient sum to enable him to send out a man for a year or two. Of course the board might reject his application ; but he ought to have the right to state his requirements, with the hope UNIVKUSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 317 tliiit they would be eomplied with if reasonable. I liave often thought that the Huhneian Exliibitions attadied to my own college might be made more useful in some such way. Whatever questions may be raised as to the design of the founder of these exhibitions, there is no doubt whatever that he intended them for graduate education, to be held in fact by Bachelors of Arts. I should be glad to speak more at length on this point when the Commissioners consider college as distinct from university requirements. The witness withdrew. OXFORD. Rev. J. Wordiwortli, M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. The Rev, Benjamin Jowett, M.A. (one of the representatives of the curators of the Bodleian Library), examined. Rev. R. Joweit, M.A. t769. {Chairtnan.) You were unable to accompany the gentlemen who came to represent the Bodleian the other day, and we should be very glad to know what suggestions on that subject you are prepared to make to us ; and first as to the establishment of a connexion between the Bodleian and All Souls’? — I think that such a connexion would be very advan- tageous to the Bodleian, and it is naturally suggested by the locality. All Souls’ already possessing a large library which is partly devoted to law. Two great libraries within .50 yards of each other are a useless and unmeaning arrangement. I think there would also be an advantage in the librarian becoming the head or a fellow of the college. To provide him with a house in or very near the Bodleian would greatly increase the safety and efficiency of the library. This scheme, which is associated with the name of Mr. Robarts of All Souls’, seems to me be.tter than any of the plans for introducing undergraduates to All Souls’ College, which is not really adapted to receive them. If a college has undergraduates it should devote itself to them, but we can hardly expect that to be the case with All Souls’. Mr. Robarts appears to me to deserve great credit for urging this proposal upon the university. I say so because I shall take exception to some of the points in his scheme. The scale on which he proposes to carry out this idea seems to me unreasonable ; a comparatively small part of the revenue of All Souls’, or of any other great college would be required by the wants of the Bodleian. I cannot agree with the large sums which he would propose to spend — .3,000/. a year in six under librarians, and an additional 3,000/. in books. In that case the library would increase not as it does at present at the rate of between 3,000 and 4,000 volumes a year, but at the rate of 10,000 volumes a year. The number of readers at the Bodleian would not justify such an outlay as that. I do not agree in the view which has been sometimes entertained that the under-librarians of the Bodleian are to be mere students who pursue their own studies there. I think that they should have definite duties assigned to them, and be em- ployed during the library hours in the service of the library. 4770. {Mr. Bernard.) The thing then which you think desirable in this suggestion is that it would afford a house near the Bodleian for the librarian ? — Yes, that would be a part of the advantage ; it would also relieve the university of the annual payment to the Bodleian which would become applicable to other purposes ; and it would utilise the library of All Souls’. 4771. Are you satisfied that it would make it more useful than it is now ? — It would be at least as useful as it is now, and there would be a saving of money if books were not purchased twice over, and if the two libraries were under one management. But the more important part of the proposal is the contribution to be made to the Bodleian. 4772. You think it desirable that the revenues of the Bodleian should be increased, and that the librarian should have a house near the library, and to that extent you think-* that the proposal to which you refer, and which has not yet been placed before us, would have advantages ? — Yes, I think so. 4773. You propose, however, to take but a small part, as I understand you, of the revenues of All Souls’ which are now very considerable, for this par- ticular purpose ? — Y'’es ; not the whole, but a part. 4774. The revenue not taken for this p\irpose would have to be applied to other purposes ; do you think it would be obviously proper that the head of the whole institution should hold the office of librarian of the Bodleian ? — That would depeirl upon what the other purposes are to which the revenues of All Souls’ are applied. 4775. {Chairman.) It has been suggested to us that it might be useful to concentrate the representa- tion of the faculty of law in All Souls’ — have you con- sidered that proposal, or heard of it? — Y’'es, I have heard of it, but I can hardly say that I have considered it. In general, it appears to me desirable that studies and the professors of them should be mixed together in the same college, not that a single college should be devoted to a single study. Different branches of knowledge gain from contact with each other, and the professors of them are less liable to become a clique. 4776. {Mr. Bernard.) The librarian of the Bod- leian must be little else than a librarian nuist he not? — He must be a learned man, and a man of authority who has some power of administration and courteous manners ; these qualities are as suitable in the head of a college as in the head of a library. 4777. Is it not true that the office of the librarian of a very great library requires that the whole of his time and attention should be given to the duties of his library ? — Y’’es, the greater part of his time must be given to bis office of librarian, but he might very well superintend a college framed on the plan of placing the law professors in All Souls’, or on another plan which has been sometimes suggested of electing distinguished men as fellows of All Souls’. His duties in the library would be quite consistent with any duties which the warden of All Souls’ has hitherto been in the habit of performing. The librarian would be perhaps as good a head as you could have. I am far from denying that there is force in what you say. But it seems to me that the greatest difficulty of all is to find duties for the warden of All Souls’ in a college which has no undergraduates ; and that this difficulty is happily solved by the proposal to connect his office with the librarianship of the Bodleian. 4778. {Sir M. W. Ridlei/.) Speaking of the libra- rian having a residence in All Souls’, have you thought about attaching a fellowship to the sub-librarian ? — I think it would be better to pay his stipend by a con- tribution than to give him a fellowship. 4779. Y’'ou mean a general contribution from the funds of the college '? — Y’’es. 4780. {Chairman.) With respect to the additions required to the Bodleian, or in connexion with it, you have first noted an arch;eological museum which has been recommended by the Hebdomadal Council — would you state your views upon that subject, and how it should be connected with the Bodleian ? — A museum of classical archaeology and art is certainly needed in a university which is devoted to the study of the classics, more than to any other single branch of knowledge. It should be connected with the Bodleian in two ways, by locality and by common management. I am afraic in speaking of these things that 1 may appear to be taking a liberty with the property of the Radcliffe trustees, but I would suggest that the upper room of the Radcliffe should be used as an archaiological museum ; to this might be trans- ferred the art and anti([uarian books of the Bodleian ; and the whole department placed under an additional sub-librarian. 4781. I may mention that we have heard lately from one gentleman that he thinks that room would not be large enough for the purpose, have you considered R r 3 318 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. liec. li. Jowett, M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. that ? — Yes, I have considered it. I think it would be large enough to l)egin with and for many years. Tlie librarian wishes to have the Gough collection and the works on antiquity and art deposited. The coins of the Bodleian, which have been recently arranged and catalogued, would naturally find a place in such a museum. I will give a rough idea of the expense. I should add another sub-librarian at iOO/. a year, or rising from 300/. to 500/. a year, which avouUI be a better plan than our present one. There must also be a definite sum set apart for the purchase of casts and antiquities. 4782. Have you estimated what sum annually would be desirable, or would you not appropriate any annual sum at all ? — I should appropriate an annual sum of say 500/. or 600/. for the formation of the collection. 4783. {Ml'. Bernard.) Would the upper room of the Eadcliffe in your opinion be large enough to serve the purposes of an archteological museum generally ? — Not for a museum of British and other anti(iuities as well as classical. But the gallery of the Bodleian might be added, and this would contain a vast number of such objects ; the anthropological specimens would be more naturally placed in the museum of physical science. 4784. Would it be an advantage in your opinion that the museum should contain other antiquities be- side classical — I do not say necessarily in the same room, but at any rate in contiguous rooms ? — Some departments of antiquities, c.g., classical, British, Egyptian, pal?eontological are so distinct that it is not important to have them in the same room, or even in the same building. 4785. With respect to that which is now the lower room of the Eadcliffe, which was formerly open, what is the use to which it is applied at present ? — Hitherto it has been used for the new books Avhich are classified there. It is capable of containing 50,000 or 60,000 volumes. At this moment it is used as a reading room, because the Eadcliffe tnistees have kindly un- dertaken to make some improvements in the Eadclifte, which will enable us to use the lower part as a fire- proof building for our manuscripts. 4786. Would it be possible to introduce light enough there to make that room also serviceable for museum purposes ? — I think that the destination of that room is settled by the changes which the Eadclifte trustees have made in it. They have gone to the expense of making the room fireproof for the preser- vation of our manuscripts and other valuables. 4787. {Chairman.) It would probably not be desir- able to have those manuscripts deposited in a place which was also used for Museum purposes ? — Certainly not. 4788. {Prof. Smith.) Will you state your opinion of the suggestion which has been made that a small fireproof building entirely separated from the Bodleian should be erected at some distance from it, say for example in the parks? — I think that the distance and the expense are great objections to such a plan. The distance is a considerable objection because a student wants to use manuscripts together with other books. The distance of the Eadcliffe from the Bodleian is trifling, and there is the advantage of being able to use the manuscripts in the room above. Even a small fireproof building would probably cost 8,000/., or 10,000/., and having the gift of such a huilding close to the main library you would hardly go out to the parks to build another at a great expense, 4789. Are you satisfied with the present arrange- ment as being absolutely fireproof? — I think so. The only doubt has been whether in the very unlikely case of the timbers of the roof falling in they would go through the stone floor, because the floor in places was thin, but now the floor has been so strengthened that I believe there is no danger of this sort. To make the lower story of the building absolutely fireproof it is only necessary to add iron shutters. 4790. {Mr. Bernard.) You think that the best authorities whom you have consulted are satisfied about that ? — Yes, they are satisfied. 4791. {Chairman.) Will you now ]>ass to the sub- ject of any increased outlay upon books which you think desirable ? — A considerable increase in the out- lay on books is needed, especially to supply gaps in the library. What those are the librarians could tell more precisely than I can. To my own knowledge in German books and in commentaries on the classics there are considerable gaps. I should think that we could profitably spend another 1,000/. a year on books. We should want to suppl}' the gaps first, and then somewhat to increase our regular purchases. 4792. YMu would not go much beyond 1,000/. a year ? — I should not go beyond 1,000/. a year. The library appears to increase at the rate of between 3,700 and 4,000 books a year now. An additional annual sum of 1,000/. would give about 2,000 addi- tional books a year; more than half as many again. 4793. {3Ir. Bernard.) The 1,000/. a year you would contemplate as a normal addition in future, not as including what ought to be spent in filling up lacunee? — I meant it to include both. 4794. {Chairman.) But not including binding?— No, not including binding. 4795. Have you estimated the additional cost in binding. I think we were told that about 200/. a year more for binding would be enough ? — I think so. It would be fair to reckon the cost of binding at about one-fifth of the cost of books. 4796. {Mr. Bernard.) I think we were told that at present it is about 500/., and that it ought to be about 700/. ? — I should think that is about right. 4797. {Chairman.) YMur next point refers to the classification of the catalogue? — Yes; the alphabetical catalogue commenced 20 years ago is now nearly finished, and the next business on Avhich we have to enter is a classification of the catalogue. 1 do not think that it will be a very costly undertaking, because the titles are already written ; they have only to be arranged. The librarian thinks, and we think, that a classed catalogue, such as exists at IMunich and some other foreign libraries, would be a very useful addition to the Bodleian. 4798. What do you estimate for that? — It is such an entirely new thing that I could not give any estimate, but the expense would not be great ; nothing like the cost of the alphabetical catalogue. 4799. The next point is as to the re-arrangement of the library, what have you to say with regard to that ? — That is a very important subject to the Bodleian. Owing mainly to the want of room, the library is in a state of disorder unlike any other library. If you run your eye cursorily along the shelves of the gallery you see the most heterogeneous books placed together on the same shelf. Although librarians do not aim at minute classification, they like to have books generally arranged under heads such as History, Theology, Natural Science, and so on. That is the case at the British Museum, and at every great libraiy. The arrangement of books according to subjects has two advantages ; a slighter advantage is that books are found quicker than they otherwise would be ; the attendants and librarians more easily acquire a local memory of their library, and become sooner aware of the gaps in the library. The greater advantage is that a student can be placed where he is surrounded liy the books on his own subject. A great deal is suggested by the titles of books, and they can be taken down from the shelf and inspected much more ra])idly than they can be looked out in the catalogue and brought to the reader one by one. We could not give this advantage to all our students, but we might to our senior and advanced students, if the library were re-arranged. I should make one or two excep- tions, such as the Selden Librar}-; thi» might be retained as it is, but the great mass of the library should be re-arranged. 4800. {Mr. Bernard.) Would that require great structural alterations ? — None at all ; it would only require some alterations in the book-cases. 4801. {Chairman.) If that principle of arrangement was adopted, how could they manage books upon UNIVEIISITY OF OXFOKl) CO-VOllSSlON ; — iUlXUXK.S OF EVIDENCE. 319 the same subject dift'ering very mucli ia their size, for instance a great 'folio and a duodecimo togetlier ? — You put folio books together and octavos together on different slielves of the same bookcase. 4802. You cannot by any classification avoid dividing books wliich you would wish to put together in that way ? — They are not far apart if they are in the same cases. 4803. {Mr. Bernard.) That would be a more minute classification than you could aim at, would it not ? — Yes. 4804. {ChairmaH.) Have you estimated any outlay as necessary for that purpose ? — No, 1 cannot. 4805. But you do not suppose that it would be very great ? — It would occuj)y a considerable number of persons for three or four years. Say four or five persons. 4806. Would they be persons possessing special qualifications ? — Not all of them. There should be one or two persons of special qualification who would map out the library and arrange the plans of the books ; but the greater part of the work would be mechanical. 4807. Would the head librarian have time enough to enable him to undertake the superintendence of such a re-arrangement ? — I think so with the assis- tance of the under librarians. 4808. I observe that as against the expenses re- quired for those purposes you set something for present or prospective savings ? — There will be a large saving when the expenditure on the general catalogue comes to an end. The annual cost of this is estimated at about 1,120/. a year; it will be finished in a month or two. The special catalogues of coins and MSS. will also soon be completed ; thus a further saving of some hundreds a year will be effected. 4809. What paper have you in your hand ? — It is the last balance sheet. 4810. Will you hand it in — Yes {delivering in the same). 4811. Y'our next point is as to the neeessary staff? — I would only give the data upon which that should be calculated. Idie staff should be proportioned to the number of readers, and the number of entries which have to be made in the catalogue. It sounds overwhelming when the library is said to increase at the rate of 3,700 or 4,000 books a year, but such an increase does not really imply more than 12 or 14 entries in the catalogue per day, and double that increase does not imply more than 24 or 28 entries per diem. Then there are the interruptions of visitors, the unpacking and placing of books, the arrangement of periodicals, the examination of catalogues, answers to inquiries, and other business of this sort. I make these remarks because I think it desirable to counter- act the notion that we want an indefinite increase in the Bodleian staff such as the six under-librarians of whom we have heard. 4812. What increase do you yourself think neces- sary in the staff? — I think no increase necessary for the permanent work of the library, except for the proposed archaeological department. 4813. Whatever may be necessary for temporary purposes, we may assume that, in your judgment, for permanent purposes that is the only addition ? — That is the only addition in my opinion required for the permanent work of the library ; and I think the greater part of the temporary work, such as the classed cata- logue, can be done by the existing staff of the library. 4814. {Mr. Berneird.) It does not appear that the curators have come to any resolution to the effect that they require an increase of revenue for the purposes of their staff, does it ? — No, they have come to no such resolution. 4815. {Chairman.) Do you think that any addi- tion to the salaries of the present officers of the library is desirable ? — No, I think they are sufficient. They have been raised within a few years. 4816. Are the attendants as well paid as you think they ought to be? — Y^es, I think so. The salaries of the transcribers and assistants vary from 57/. to 240/. ; the average of them is about 123/. 4817. Would you have any graduated scale amongst them different from what now exists ? — No, I would not. 4818. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you think that the present stipends are sufficient to retain in the library the good assistants whom you would wish to retain ? — Yes, I think so. They are as high as the salaries of certifi- cated schoolmasters, and the employment is lighter. 4819. {Chairman.) With regard to the building, what is your o2)inion ? — There has been a committee of the Bodleian curators on that subject. The general heads of their report are as follows : First, we are of opinion that the whole building, including the Bad- cliffe and the Ashmolean, must be devoted to the use of the Bodleian. We propose to make the Divinity School a general reading room ; the room above a select reading room, as has hitherto been the case ; and we also propose to have an evening reading room at the Ashmolean. We think it would be very desi- rable to include in the large reading room the Convo- cation House and the Broscholium, using them also for libraries of reference. In the Selden Gallery, on the first floor, we should concentrate the work of the library. Further, we projjose to divide the whole of the Quadrangle into a number of small rooms, laying down floors of iron and concrete, supported by cross walls running up to the gallery. Each room would be about 20 feet square and fifteen feet high, and would be neai’ly fireproof. The gallery of the Bodleian would be left much adapted and restored. According to our plan the Ashmolean would be connected witli the Bodleian by a passage or gallery. The exterior of the building also requires extensive repairs. These may seem large projiosals ; but then we have to pro- vide for the wants of a library which increases at the rate of from 3,500 to 4,000 volumes a year and which will probably increase half as fast again if its wants are projjerly supplied. What we jiropose is the least that is required for the proper housing and using of the books which we have already and which we are likely to have in the next 30 or 40 years. We do not think it either necessary or desirable to have any building in the Quadrangle or to break up the library into a number of smaller libraries. There may be some distribution of books among the different Oxford libraries in the case of law and physical science, but we should wish the main books even on those subjects to be contained in the Bodleian Library as well. 4820. {Prof. Smith.) You would wish, would you not, a conqflete series of all the transactions of learned societies and scientific journals to exist in the Bodleian Library ; the transactions of learned societies are surely wanted in the Bodleian ? — Yes. 4821. As to special scientific journals it might be a question as to where they were to be [Aaced ? — We think that the main books on {fliysical science and law ought to be found in the Bodleian Library as well as in any s^iecial library. 4822. {Chairman.) Where would you propose to put the Convocation House if that scheme where adopted ? — To transfer it to the theatre. 4823. {Mr. Bernard.) What alterations would be necessary in the theatre for that purpose, do you think ? — I think that hardly any alteration would be necessary. 4824. It would do if it remained very nearly as it is ? — Y'es. 4825. {Prof. Smith.) You propose, do you not, to take the whole of the Ashmolean and not the upper floor only ? — Yes, I will say a few words about the amount of room which we want. The number of books in the Bodleian may be estimated at from 370.000 to 400,000 volumes. We ought to provide room for more than twice this number, because the library will probably increase hereafter at the rate of 5.000 or 6,000 volumes a year, and with a view to orderly growth and development considerable intervals Er 4 OXFORD. Rev. B. Jowett, M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. 320 TJNIVKRSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE OXFORD. Ilev. B. Jowett, M.A. 5 Nov, 1877. should be allowed ; we uuist plan beforehand, not for 10 or 20 years only, but for 60 or 100. The Ashmo- lean is the most convenient building in the neighbour- hood of the Bodleian which can be connected with it. The entire building is capable of containing 84,000 volumes. If any part of this is not taken so much has to be taken from the book space of the library. There is also a strong objection to the same building being devoted to two uses and under two authorities. 4826. ( Chairman.) Has any estimate been made of the probable cost of the necessaiy alterations, including the fitting up of the rooms vacated by the schools ? — We have formed a very rough estimate based on the calculation of Captain Gallon. He has reckoned the cost of completely repairing the Bodleian both within and without, refitting the interior including the Con- vocation House, Proscholium, and Divinity Schools, at 19,6.50/.; to this he adds 2,000/. for proper arrange- ments respecting pipes, and for fire-proof floors in the Radclifl’e Gallery, making a total of 21,650/. On the other hand the addition of a gallery connecting the Bodleian with the Ashmolean, or the adaptation of the Ashmolean itself did not enter into his plan ; and a considerable part of the external repairs estimated by him at 7,500/. has been already executed. -Taking his estimate as the basis of our calculations we ven- tured to arrive at a very general conclusion that the works proposed by us would cost not much less than 25,000/., nor much more than 30,000/. to which has to be added a considerable sum for the restoration and adaptation of the Bodleian Gallery. 4827. Does that include the fitting up of the schools? — Yes, it includes fittings. 4828. {Prof. Smith.) Does that include the gallery between the Apodyterium and the Ashmolean ? — Yes, it does ; speaking generally', I do not think that we can reckon what is required in the buildings of the Bodleian including fittings at less than 35,000/. 4829. {Chairman.) In that do you include the fitting up of the upj)er loom at the Kadclifl'e as an archaiological museum ?— No ; but that would not be expensive. 4830. Have you any capital sum now available for these purposes — The Bodleian has a bequest of 36,000/. three per cent, called Dr. Mason’s benefaction, but it is a legal question whether we have the right to use the capital of this sum or not. 4831. You wish lastly to tell us the result of the proposed increase of expenditure, dividing it into the heads of interminable and terminable ? — Yes. I should like to preface the figures which I give by stating that they are only intended to give the Commissioners a general impression gathered partly from the Bodleian accounts. I think the Bodleian would ret[uire an additional sum of 1 ,000/. a year for books and 1,000/. a year for the Archteological Museum. 4832. (4//. Prvnard.) That may be treated as belonging to the Bodleian, but it is hardly, perhaps, strictly speaking, a Bodleian item? — Yes, I assume that it is desirable to connect the Archaeological Museum with the Bodleian, because there would he greater economy in the management ; and if the Museum did not succeed the additional Librarian might be employed in other ways. Against this charge I should set a saving of at least 500/. a year on the catalogues. 4833. {Chairman.) But you must add 200/. a year for binding? — Yes, you must add 200/. a year for binding:. 4834. {Mr. Bernard.) Something, but you cannot estimate what, would be for some time wanted for the catalogues and for re-arrangement of books ? — Yes, but I think that the greater part of this work might be done by the existing staff of the libi-ary. 4835. {Chairman.) And the large sum for building is also terminable? — Yes, that would also be termin- able ; the library' would want, say 5,000/. a year, for seven years. 4836. {Prof. Smith.) You have already referred to the lanmcB in the Bodleian, and it has been stated to us that the library is very deficient in foreign books of the last hundred y'ears ; do you think that when you only ask for 1,000/. a year additional for books that will enable you to make up the ground that has been lost in that respect ? — I should wish the gaps to be filled up gradually ; the amount required must be very much matter of opinion. I can only say that a sum of 1,000/. a year would add to the library 2,000 volumes annually. 4837. {Sir 4/. IV. Ridley.) Would it not be desir- able, perhaps, that the Bodleian should have a fund available for the purchase say of some library that comes into the market ; or is that done now- ? — Libraries, such as the Bodleian would care to i)ur- chase, rarely come into the market now. No entire library' has been purchased since I have been a curator of the Bodleian. 4838. {Mr. Bernard.) There is a matter which has been mentioned to us, which, perhaps, hardly falls unefor the head of library arrangements, viz., the publication of Anecdota and the getting a complete examination of the MS. treasures of the Bodleian, with a view to the publication of the more important of them from time to time ; have you had occasion to think of that ? — Yes, I have thought of it. I am of opinion that the MS. treasures of the Bodleian, after they have been catalogued by the librarians, should be edited and published by scholars in particular lines, and that such works should be promoted by the uni- versity press rather than by the library. I should not make the editing and publishing of them a duty of the librarians, because it would tend to withdraw them from their other duties. The witness withdrew. A. G. V Harcourt Esq.. M.A A. G. Vernon Harcourt, Esq., M.A. (Senior Student of Christ Church), examined. 4839. {Chairman.) You are Lee’s reader in che- mistry at Christ Church, I believe ? — I am. 4840. You are probably acquainted with the recom- mendations which were made by Professor Clifton to the Hebdomadal Council, and which have been pub- lished by them with regard to his department in the natural science faculty, if I may' use that expression ? — I have read his recommendations. 4841. He suggested that it was desirable if the means existed to create three new professorships, so that there should be a professor of heat, a professor of electricity and magnetism, he himself retaining the subject of optics, and if there were a fourth, a pro- fessor of acoustics. We will leave acoustics for the present out of sight; but Professor Clifton thought it would be desirable that there should be those three professors, which would involve the creation of at least two new ones. Ultimately he said that what was absolutely necessary was to have one new one, but it has been suggested to us that by some modifica- tion of the foundation which y'ou partly represent, that is to say', the Lee’s readership in physics at Christ Church, the means might be found of providing one of those professors ; have you any suggestions to make or reasons to assign why that should or should not be considered desirable by us ? — I appear as one of three, each of us being engaged with a different subject. My own subject is chemistry, but I have taken the occasion of talking to my junior colleague, Mr. R. E. Baynes, M.A., who is the Lee’s reader in physics, and he has sent me a note, which perhaps it would be as well that I should read. Mr. Baynes says : “ I can- “ not see how science can be successfully cultivated in “ Christ Church without teachers who are bound to “ look after its own men, whether passmen or class- “ men, and I do not see how a man can teach and “ superintend as a collegeTutor should if he has uni- “ versity work to do. My idea of a professor is a “ man whose whole time is occupied in preparing “ elaborate lectures, wherein the latest developments UNIVEUSITV OF OXFOUD COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 321 “ ot' the subject matter are fully discussed ; in the “ extensive reading and study requisite for such a “ course; in extending such knowledge, if possible; “ and in partially superintending the practical work “ that may he done in his laboratory. He might “ also lind time for cateclietical lecture.^, or an occasional discussion with a promising student ; “ but for teaching proper, for the intimate relation “ with men who can constantly come to him for “ advice, explanation, and careful consideration of “ their ditliculties, he can have no time to spare. “ Hence, if the readerships were alienated to univer- “ sity professors, the house would be obliged, as “ another college, to send out its men to private “ tutors, or it would have to appoint other lecturers, “ wliose functions would be those of the Lee’s “ readers as at present constituted, minus, perhaps, » the experimental lectures. I am, therefore, dis- “ tinctly of opinion that the house should retain its “ Lee’s readers as they are, for 1 cannot see how they “ can at once be college tutors and have university “ duties to perform. Please to consider the above as “ what I should wish you to represent to the Com- “ mission as my views.” 4842. May we assume that so far as relates to the department of chemistry, as to which no proposal has been made that I am aware of, you would concur in those views ? — Not as regards chemistry. I think the cases are different. 4843. As regards chemistry, is the relation at present existing between your chair and the univer- sity satisfactory to you ? — Yes, it is satisfactory to me. 4844. You and the museum work together ? — We work quite independently. 4845. But I presume that you arrange in the way of advice or otherwise for those things to be done by your students at the museum which are best done there, if there are any such things ? — Yes, I always recommend my pupils to attend the lectures of the professor of chemistry, but in all other respects I take charge of them my.self. 484(5. And your means of doing so are as good as any which exist at the museum ? — Yes, they differ only in quantity. 4847. What is the difference between your case and that of the lecturer in physics ? — It is of this kind, that the teaching of physics appears to involve the possession of a much more costly apparatus than is re- quisite for teaching chemistry, and therefore the reader in physics in Christ Church is not provided with the apparatus which is necessary for the honour work of students in physics, and could not be, without a far greater outlay than has been incurred in rooms and apparatus. 4848. So that his students must go to the museum ? — They must go to the museum. 4849. Should you be of opinion that under those circumstances it would be reasonable to organise the relation between the museum and the Lee’s reader- ship so as to give something of an university cha- racter to the Lee’s reader ? — I do not myself think it would be unreasonable. 4850. It has been suggested to us if that were done the Lee’s reader’s lectures would be as of right open to all the university, that they now are so practically on the payment of a small fee, and that if he were an university officer a scheme for division of labour might be arranged with him by the professors of some sub- jects in the museum ; should you approve of that suggestion ? — It seems to me that such an arrange- ment would be desirable. 4851. Should you think it incompatible with his giving in Chrifft Church such teaching of a tutorial character as it is desirable that he should give there ? — So flir as I can judge it can only be a question of the amount of work which he is required to undertake as an university professor. Of course if the work is such in kind or in quantity as to occupy his whole time no time can remain for any special charge of his Christ Church pupils ; but I do not conceive that the Q 6223. charge of some one part of physics, making that the subject upon which he would lecture to members of the university generally, naed so wholly occupy his time as that none would remain for seeing privately, and taking the special charge of, his pupils in Christ Church. Perhaps I might add that that actually is the case with the Lee’s reader in biology ; my other colleague, the Lee’s reader in biology, does work at the museum only. 4852. Does your experience lead you to think that the system of college instruction in those branches of jihysieal science might be usefully extended in the university, that is to say, to more colleges than those which now undertake it ? — I think so. In my own subject I see no difficulty in such an extension, because, as I have mentioned, the necessary outlay in space and apparatus and material is no greater than several colleges (some, not all) might undertake. But it is not possible in either of the other two branches into which physical science is divided for our examinations, either in physics or in biology, that the colleges should make such a provision, nor do I think it desirable that in such a place as Oxford there should be in duplicate the anatomical preparations or physical apparatus. 4853. That would be a waste of funds and of power ? — I think so. 4854. (Mr. Bernard.) Can any considerable pro- portion of the elementary work in either of those two departments be done without the use of this expensive plant ; must the student go at once to the museum as soon as he begins to get his instruction, or could he up to a certain stage pursue his work in college and under his college lecturer, going afterwards, when he had reached a certain point, to the museum for teaching ? — I believe that in physics the elementary part might be conducted in college. It was on my motion that the governing body of Christ Church constituted the Lee’s readership in physics ; and the impression which I was under then, and which I still to some extent i-etain, was that apparatus of a less exact and less costl}' character might be provided by the col- lege, and might furnish a physical reader with the means of giving elementary instruction in that subject. Elementary lectures used to be given in my undergraduate time here which are not at present represented by any lectures which are now given ; and I thought that Christ Church might fill an useful office by providing lectures of that kind. In biology I believe it would be necessary for a student to have from the beginning the opportunity of exa- mining the collections and anatomical preparations : and those would be stationed at the museum. 4855. I asked the question because, as you are aware, the study of physics being so exacting as re- gards the space it demands, each elaborate instrument requiring a considerable space to itself, the building for the study of physics would perhaps require to be large if a large number of persons were pursuing even the elementary course, and much more if they were all pursuing the advanced course ? — Such a knowledge of physics as I should like to see part of the general education would not necessitate any acquaintance with these more elaborate pieces of apparatus ; but the general properties of solids and liquids and gases, and the elementary study of heat, and some knowledge of light and acoustics may, so far as I can understand the matter, be well acquired without such appliances. I might venture to say, that like other students of chemistry, 1 need to have some knowledge of the kind, and the little knowledge which I have is only such as it has been possible to gain without those advantages. 4856. (Dr. Bellamy.) In lecture rooms only ? — In lecture rooms only, and with apparatus which was not of the class which is now provided at the university museum. I admit that the nature of biology and of physics is such that a large stock of costly preparations or apparatus is requisite for all but elementary teach- ing in both subjects. Therefore colleges cannot take complete charge of their honour-men in these subjects. The number of such men is also at present small, scarcely one man per college per year. In Christ S s OXFORD. A. G. V. Harcourt, Esq., M.A. 5 No>. 1877. 322 UNIVERSITY OF OXFOHT) COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. A. G. V. Harcourt , Esq., M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. Church, ivliere we liave had a reader in physics for the last eight years, and elect on the average two natural science junior students yearly, not more than two or three men have ever taken honours in physics. The number is thus limited hy the standard of mathe- matical knowledge to which students of physics need now' to attain. Probably the development of a “ modern side ” at the schools which supply the university will in time provide enough men suitably educated to form a small lecture class in separate colleges, and when this is the case a need may be felt ibr lecturers such as our Lee’s reader in physics, able to give special help to their college pupils, at least in the mathematical and non-experimental part of their work. At the same time, how'ever, the numher of college fellows elected for excellence in both mathematics and physics is likely to increase, and the want I have suggested may thus be supplied. I conceive that many classical tutors give lectures to honour-men in subjects less closely related than phj'sics and mathematics now are. The most manageable of the physical sciences for college teaching is, I think, chemistiy. It appears also, to judge from the statistics of the university laboratory, to attract more students than either biology or physics. I think, therefore, that the great advan- tages which the older studies enjoy of a healthy rivalry between teachers, and of a su})j)ly of examiners who are not examining only their own pupils, may be retained in the case of chemistry, though those advan- tages have to be sacrificed in the case of the other two divisions of natural science. A college lecturer in chemistry might perhaps be expected to undertake elementary lectures in experimental physics and even in so much of mechanics and hydrostatics as he would himself have been required to present in the prelimi- nary honour examination. I helieve the best that could be done both for the teaching and for the cultivation of chemistry in Oxford would be to establish three or four such readershii)s as I hold. Christ Church gives me, partly no doubt in consideration of my long service, the very liberal stipend of 700/. a year. It pays also 2501. a year for assistance and laboratory expenses. I have a class varying from 8 to 12, some beginners, some w'ell advanced, wdio do all their work in Christ Church, except that I send them to the lectures of the professor of chemistry. I have always some investigation of my own going on, to which I give a good deal of time even during term, not only because I think original w ork one of my duties as Lee’s reader, nor only because of the interest attaching to such work, but also because it is, I am sure, good for my pupils to see actual experimental w'ork, of how- ever humble a character, going on, and to see also how interesting and all but engrossing it is. At present it would not be a reasonable wish that every college should have its laboratory. But if tw'o or three in addition to Christ Church, such as Magdalen, Balliol, and Merton, were thus provided, the gain would be manifold. The university laboratory w'ould he relieved from the burden of a good deal of elementary work. Several courses of lectures arranged on the combined college system would be given every term. In each laboratory the men would have the jicrsonal attention which a teacher can only give when his class is small. Moreover, several posts would be created giving in- ducement and means for original research, without the temptation of sinecures ; while the vacancies in them ■from time to time would supply the [)rize-stimulus to the most capable students. 4857. {Chair7nan.) If Professor Clifton’s idea were adopted, and if the Lee’s readership of physics w'ere utilised for that purpose, that reader would, in sub- stance, become a professor either of heat or electricity and magnetism ; and if such a division were inade you still say that it w'ould be reconcileable with such tutorial duties as it is convenient that he should dis- charge at Christ Church ? — I think so. It appears to me unlikely that the number of pupils following any one of those subjects, or the number of lectures which the lecturer should be required to give in his subject, would be sufficient to occupy the whole of his time ; and a portion would remain wdiich he might utilise for the benefit of his special pupils. ■1858. {Prof. Smith.) At present, if I understand you correctly, the Lee’s reader in physics has only charge of the elementary w'ork, and further, I presume, of the book work of the men reading for the honour schools, but not of their practical w'ork ? — Not of their practical w'ork ; and actually there have been in Christ Church very few men who have made physics their honour subject in the Natural Science, School, so that the jiresent Lee’s reader tells me (regretting it) that he has nothing to do with honour-men. 4859. Does not that point to the conclusion that some w ork of a more advanced kind might be found for the Lee’s reader in physics without any dis- advantage ? — It certainly seems so to me, but, as you have heard, it is not his o})inion. 4860. ( ]\[r. Beniard.) I am afraid it is true, is it not, that if a man has a branch of science assigned to him, he very soon finds that the demand which that branch of science makes, or ought to make, upon his time would be incompatible with his doing much elementary tutorial work ? — A"es ; no doubt it is pos- sible so to subdivide that the hranch so assigned to any men may occupy the wdiole of his time. 4861. If he is a true man of science, as ive may suppose he w'ould be, he hecomes extremely sensible of the demands which his branch of science makes upon him ? — Yes, and there is also this to be remembered : that besides the time that he may spend in teaching, he would be expected to do something towards the advance of knowledge in his particular branch. That is already hoped for from the Lee’s readers in Christ Church, and doubtless it would be from a university professor of electricity. 4862. A man entrusted with the subject of electri- city would naturaly desire perhaps to give his whole time to the advancement of the knowledge of this important subject ? — I think so. It would no doubt be a great temptation for any man who was the university representative of a subject to devote himself to that subject in preference to working at mere elementary w'ork with men who were his college pupils. I think that of the two duties wdiich he was required to fulfil, one w'ould be likely to be much more attractive than the other, and we may expect that he would be inclined to follow that one rather than the other. 4863. It is only too probable, is it not, that he would soon come and say, “ Electricity demands all my time ; I have no time for mere tutorial work ?” — ■ There is that difficulty. 4864. {Chairman.) Judging from past experience and taking the number at the present time, how many pupils would the reader in physics have at Christ Church ? — Perhaps six or eight. 4865. ( Sir M. IV. Ridley?) Are undergraduates of other colleges admitted to study physics under (he Lee’s reader at Church Church ? — The lectures are open to other undergraduates, but actually there are very few besides Christ Church men who come to the lectures of, 1 believe, any of the Lee’s readers. 4866. {ISlr. Bernard.) You yourself, I think, do find that you have some time to devote to the pursuit of original research and the advancement of your science 'f — Yes, I regard my present position as being extremely advantageous in that way. Indeed I would that there were many more positions in Oxford sueh as that which I occupy, for the reason that having only moderate teaching duties a good deal of my time is free, and Christ Church provides me with ample means for original research ; so that actually during term time I am able to go on with some work of my owm, and in the long vacation I have all the means and all my space free. 48C)7. {Pi'of. Smith.) You have referred to the lectures that used to be given hy the late Professor Walker in this universit}' on the subject of physics, and I think you have expressed the opinion that it is desirable that there should be in the university general courses of lectures on physics suitable to persons who UNIVEJISITY or OXFOUI) COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 328 do Mo( wish lo become specially physicists ? — Tiiat is my own opinion. I find it dilHcult to speak with any confidence on the matter, because physics appears to be more and more becoming a study open only to those who are mathematicians, and those who culti- vate it most seem to think rather humbly of such physics as are attainable without mathematics. Now the lectures that I spoke of were mainly experimental and were certainly intelligible to non-mathematicians. 4*868. And therefore they were intelligible to a larger number of persons than a more special course could have been ? — My own opinion is that if physics are thus limited a certain number of persons to whom I believe an elementary knowledge of physics would be very useful are precluded from pursuing the study at all. I believe that the general knowledge of physics which is now attained is less than it was 20 years ago ; I mean that fewer of those who leave the univer- sity have some general knowledge of the properties of matter than used to be the case. 4869. Even for lectures of an elementary and mainly experimental kind such as you have described, some very good apparatus is necessary, is it not, if the experiments have to be shown in any impressive manner to a large class ? — I think so. 4870. The apparatus that was used by Professor Walker was in part of a costly kind, was it not? — Yes. Something must depend upon the audience before whom the experiments are shown. If the lecture room is on a large scale, the apparatus needs to be oil a large scale also. 4871. Will you tell us what amount of space there is at Christ Church available for the purpose of the Lee’s readers ? — There is nearly the whole of the original building of Dr. Lee ; it includes a lecture room sufficient for the accommodation of between 30 and 40 students. The walls of that lecture room are furnished with benches for chemical work. There is also a room which I occupy where the chemical balances stand, and another room which we use as a store room. Above those are two other rooms which are partly filled with books (we have a small scientific library) and partly with the apparatus of the physical reader. 4872. I gather from that statement that if any university duties were assigned to the Lee’s reader in physics it would be impossible to find accommodation for him in the existing building? — Yes, it would be (|uite impossible. 4873. If it were further proposed to assign any university duties to the Lee’s reader in chemistry, would there or would there not be space in the existing building for such an extension of his func- tions ? — No, there is no more space than is now re- quired for the men from Christ Church who work thei'e. Actually there is more space in the lecture room, but not for practical work. My lecture benches are not filled. The laboratory accommodation is only for eight men, and I have often as many as that working in the laboratory. 4874. And it is also an inconvenient arrangement, is it not, to have the room for practical work and the room for lectures the same ? — Yes, it was only adopted because there was but one room available. 4875. Keeping to the same hypothesis that some uni- versity duties might be assigned to the Lee’s reader in chemistry, could you suggest any portion of the general subject of chemistry that could be assigned to him 7 - — I should like in answer to that to draw a dis- tinction between the cases of chemistry and of physics, as they appear to me. Lord Selborne has read an extract from a paper that Professor Clifton drew up for the Vice-Chancellor projiosing a division of physics into different subjects. I think thfit in that case such a division is absolutely necessary ; but what I myself should prefer to see in chemistry is, that there should be at least two or three centres of teaching where there should not be a division of subjects between those who taught ; whether they were called readers 01 ' professors or college tutors, that they should be all teachers of scientific chemistry in its extent. In the actual lectures which they gave term by term there would no doubt be a division of subjects, but I would not confine any one of them to one part of scientific chemistry. 4876. Yet you would admit, would you not, that there are some natural divisions in chemistry ? — I hardly think so ; I do not think that chemistry is naturally divided by its subject matter as physics naturally is. I believe Dr. Odling has already called the attention of the Commission to the division which exists in the various German universities. I have sjroken with him on the subject, and he lent me a book which gives a list of the professors of chemistry at the different German universities; and I notice in looking at it chiefly this : that you have at the universities where the teaching staff is largest two or three or perhaps four professors, all under the same description of what is called Theoretische, but which I think we should call scientific chemistry. Then there are in some cases one or two other professors such as a ])ro- fessor of medical chemistry, or of legal chemistry, or of chemistry applied to arts and manufactures ; but in all cases I think there is more than one professor of scientific chemistry, and I suppose it is to scientific chemistry that the university should chiefly confine itself. 4877. Are you acquainted with the original terms of the foundation of Dr. Lee’s readers ; there was originally but one, I believe? — Yes, that was so. I have refreshed my recollection by looking over Dr. Lee’s will and what has been done about it since. 4878. Is it the case that Dr. Lee designed that the lectures of his reader should be of use to the whole university, or did he confine it to the house of Christ Church exclusively? — I think he intended that it should be of use to the whole university, but he also provided a separate small class of, I think, six for his reader, who should hold an endowment of some kind and who should be, if possible, Westminster students; and it was before these that the Lee’s reader was to dissect. Dr. Lee’s main interest appears to have been anatomical, and he provided for two complete courses being given yearly in anatomy by the Lee’s reader in anatomy, 4879. Is there any indication in the original will of any intention that the foundation shoidd be useful to the university at large ? — I am not quite sure as to the original will, but it was the practice. As will be known, until the creation of the Linacre Professorship of Physiology, the Lee’s reader in anatomy was the only teacher of that subject in the university, and was in effect the university professor of that subject. I being a member of Balliol, attended at Christ Church in the building which I now occupy Dr. Ilolleston’s demonstrations and lectures in anatomy ; he being at that time in effect the university professor of anatomy. 4880. i^Prof. Smith.') What is the present mode of appointment of the Lee’s readers ? — The governing body of Christ Church is at liberty either to elect after examination or to nominate without examina- tion. In my own case and in the case of the reader in anatomy, who was elected immediately afterwards, the elections were made after examination. Since then, in the election of the present reader in anatomy and of the two readers whom we have had in physics, we have nominated without examination ; and practi- cally it has been upon the recommendation of the professor of those subjects, and perhaps also of the examiners in the schools. 4881. Would you think it a right mode of appoint- ment for a man who is to have professorial or quasi- professorial duties that he should be elected after examination ? — I should not. 4882. Then if any university duties should even- tually be assigned to the Lee’s readers, in what manner do you think they should be elected for the future? — 1 suppose what would be done would be what has been done in similar cases, that is to say, that the college would be given a voice in the election. Hut the mode of appointment to scientific chairs, which seems to me S s 2 OXFORD. A. G. V. Harcoui t. Esq., M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. 324 UNIVEKSITY OF OXFOUD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. A. G. V. Harcourt, r.sq., M.A. Nov. 1877. to be the best, is that those who have the responsibility of the appointment should be men who are eminent in the science which the new professor is to profess, or in kindred sciences. 48S3. Do you think that the principle of a mixed hoard might be applicable to the appointment in the future of the Lee’s readers in Christ Church ? — I think so. It would perhaps be natural if the Lee’s readers remain that the other two Lee’s readers and, pel hcip.s the Dean of Christ Church, should be mem- bers of the board. It would need, no doubt, a change in the mode of appointment if more of an university character were given to the Lee’s readerships. ^ The witness withdrew. P. F. A Idrcd, Esq., M.A. B.C.L. Philip F. Aldued, Esq., M.A. B.C.L. (Hertford College), examined. 4884. (Chain/iftn.) I believe you have taken some part in the teaching of law in the university ? — I have. 4885. And you are prepared to state to the Com- missioners some difficulties which are encountered under the present system at the Bodleian Library ; will you have the goodness to state what they are, and how you would remove them ? — I can best explain it, I think, to the Commission by showing the diffi- culties which I myself have had, first as an under- graduate, and secondly as a graduate. I was reading- in the Bodleian library the subject of contracts, a sub- ject which is now required for the Honour School of Jurisprudence. I was reading that subject in “ Smith on Contracts,” n hich is a very ordinary text book, and in reading that book of course I had to refer to reported cases about every other page. There are no regulations in the Bodleian library to prevent your having as many volumes of reports up from the law room as you wish, but if I had read the subject thoroughly I should have had to have kept the whole staff of the Bodleian library running up and down stairs all day to fetch the reports. Perhaps I should explain that you are introduced into the reading room as an undergraduate, and the books that you wish for are produced to you in this room ; they are kept down- stairs on another storey. Of course I might have had as many reports as I liked, but 1 should have felt con- siderable diffidence in asking for all that I required. 4886. The conclusion which I infer you wish us to draw is, that if the law books were all put together in the Bodleian library, and if the students were per- mitted to take them out as they wanted them, some one being present in the room as a precaution against abuse, it would be more convenient ? — Quite so. 4887. And that without some such arrangement it is very difficult to make the necessary leferences which the nature of our law requires ? — Quite so. That is as an undergraduate. As a graduate you are permitted to go down to the room where the law books are kept ; but in that room there are not all the law books together. I went down the other day with Bodley’s librarian, and I found that if I wished to refer to Robinson’s reports I should find them on one storey, Mylne and Keen on another, and Ambler on another. It is difficult to read law under such circumstances. 4888. The remedy for that, I suppose, would be a better arrangement of the books, accompanied by corresponding arrangements for the access of readers to them ? — Quite so. I think perhaps I should better illustrate my meaning if I pointed out the advantages which one has from the Codrington library in All Souls’. If it were not for the Codrington library, I do not know how we should read law in Oxford. There you are introduced into the reading room, and you are permitted to take down the reports as you require them ; and in fact you have every facility that you require, just as you have at the Middle Temple library, or at the Gray’s Inn library, or at the Lincoln’s Inn library; but neither the reports nor the treatises are complete in the Codrington library. There are many books in the Bodleian which they have not got in the Cod- rington, and there are also some at the Codrington which they have not got at the Bodleian. 4889. [Mr. Bernard.) Is the collection of reports at the Bodleian more complete than the collection at the Codrington library? — Yes. 4890. (Chairman.) Do you mean reports of cases winch have been decided in this country or i„ America ?— Both. Perhaps I should make it plainer if I said that in the Codrington library, for instance, the first 23 volumes of the Law Journal Reports are not there. C. P. Cooper’s Reports are not there, the reports in Lord Cottenham’s time. Then ao-ain, the “Weekly Reporter” is absent from the Codrin’o-ton Library of All Souls’. ^ 4891. (Mr. Bernard.) Do yon find it in the Bod- leian ? — I have not been able to find it myself. But the attendants tell me that they have the numbers of all the law periodicals and all their reports. 4892. Have you ever called the attention of the hbiarian of the Codiington library to the ab.sence, we will say, of Cooper’s Reports ?— If you would allow me to substitute the Law Journal Reports for Cooper’s Reports, I may say that I have mentioned that in the notice book, and it has stood there for, I think, a year and a half. ’ ^ 4893. There is, I think, at the Codrington library a book in which any person may enter the titles of siich books as he thinks ought to be added to the library ? — That is the book in which 1 entered it. 4894. (Chairman.) Do you know whether there is any difficulty in getting those hooks ; I suppose Pur- ton Cooper’s Reports are out of print ? — I cannot say. All. Bet Hard.) Do you knou- from your own observation that the collection of American reports is more perfect in the Bodleian than in the Codrington library ? — I could not say from my own observation. There are a great many, of course, absent from the Codrington library, 4896. (Chairman.) I see that you are prepared to make some suggestion, to use your own expression, as to the unification of the All Souls’ library with that of the Bodleian. In what manner do you suggest that that might be done ?— I thought it might be possible that the law books which were absent from the one mio-ht he supplied by the other ; they might be all together so that you would not be obliged to go from the Codrington to the Bodleian, or from the Bodleian to the Codrington, when you wanted a book. I thought it might be possible, if there was room found, to put all the law books in the Codrington library. 4897. It would be sufficient for your purpose, I suppose, if such books as are not already in the Cod- rington library were transferred from the Bodleian ? Quite so. 4898. Not to bring all the duplicates from the Bodleian ? — Certainly not. 4899. (Mr. Bernard.) Perhaps you would say that it -would sufficient if such books ivere transferred as are likely to be useful as hooks of reference, such as reports and the like ?— I would include treatises as well. 4900. There are no doubt in the Bodleian a -<>-estion tliat you have to offer to the Commission ? — Not with regard to university requirements. The witness withdrew. UNIVERSIxy OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 325 Tlie Rev. F. Aumitage, M.A. (Examiner for tlie Taylorian Scliolarship), examined. 4y02. {Chairman.) I understand that you are pre- pared to give the Comndssionei s some information as to the study and tlie teaching of modern langu iges, and particularly as to what is done in that respect in tlie German universities ; will you have the goodness to do so ? — The modern languages, English, French, and German, are treated precisely on the same footing as Latin and Greek ; that is to say, a man may take up for his degree of doctor of philosophy three subjects, one [irincipal and two subordinate, and any of these may be modern languages, precisely the same as Greek or Latin. 4903. What is required for the degrees ? — The candidates must satisfy the professors vvho have taught them during the time of their residence at the iiniver- sity. 4904. Are modern languages required for the degree of doctor of philosojihy 7 — Not necessarily ; one modern language will be necessary, if the candi- dates take up three languages. 4905. But they may have the choice of modern or ancient languages? — Yes. 4906. For instance, the degree might be taken in German, English, and French without any Latin or Greek ? — Yes, certainly. 4907. Did you say that one modern language was necessary ? — If they take up three languages, besides Latin and Greek a modern language would be their third subject. 4908. {Prof. Smith.) Might that be, for instance, an Oriental language ? — am not quite certain about that; there is, I believe, no seminar for Oriental languages. My knowledge is chiefly of Heidelberg, where, though there are lectures on Oriental languages, there is, I believe, no seminar. 4909. {Chairman.) What professors are there of modern languages at Heidelberg ? — For German 1 am not sure, as, besides the German seminar, other professors lecture on German classics, as, for instance, Ih-ofessor Kuno Fischer lectures on Lessing and Goethe’s Faust ; there are two for French, and one for English. 4910. For Old and Modern French?— Yes, that is to say, Provencal is included with Old French. 4911. Besides the professorial lectures, is tutorial instruction given in the seminar for each modern language ? — Yes. 4912. Is that like the instruction which is given in the Taylor building here ? — I should think it is much more scientific. 4913. {Mr. Bernard.) Will you ex])lain what the seminar is? — It is a kind of mixture of a college lec- ture and private tuition. The professors and the students meet together; they read books together, and discuss subjects they are doubtful about. Sonm- times I have seen the professor take the place of one of the hearers, and place one of his pupils in the chair to conduct the seminar. 4914. {Chairman.) How are the examinations conducted ? — They are conducted by the heads of the different seminars and other ordinary professors who join together, and the examination then is partly on paper and partly vivci voce, and at the same time there is an essay “Arbeit,” which has been worked up before by the candidate and sent in previously. 491.5. Is there any classification of the candidates ? — There are four classes “ Summa cum laude.” “ Eximia c. 1.,” “ IMulta c. 1.,” and simply “ Examine superato,” and no one who does not obtain the highest class is allowed to be a teacher in the university. 4916. It is in fact a classification according to merit to some extent corresponding to our class lists ? — Yes, I suppose so. 4917. Except that it is not published in a list? — It is not published. 4918. I suppose there are similar qualifications required for school teaching, are there not " — No, I believe, simply the degree ; but for schoolmasters the degree is more ornamental than useful. The real test for them is the Staats-Examen, according to which the classes are assigned, in which they may be allowed to teach. 4919. Do you think that the principles of that system might be applied in Oxford, and if so, to what extent do you think it would be desirable to attempt to apply them ? — The system would no doubt have to be adapted to the Oxford system of examinations, so long as these are maintained as at present. But any adap- tation would be better than the present disgraceful neglect of modern languages by the university. 4920. Does that arise from a cause which is in any degree external to the university ; is the preparatory teaching of the students in modern languages before they come to the university deficient? — It cuts both ways. The university neglects to provide properly trained masters for schools, and the scdiools cannot teach without them. 4921. That is to say, you mean that the persons who teach in the public schools ought fii’st to be trained in the university ? — Precisely. In Germany all masters in public schools must have passed the Abiturienten and Staats-Examen, and have studied at a German university for two years at least. 4922. Do you think that in the public schools the work will ever be well done if the teachers in modern languages teach nothing else ? — I do not see why they should not, if schools were arranged systematically as in Germany. While boys are classed, as at present in England, simply from their knowledge of Greek and Latin, there would be great difficulty. 4923. Would you have them foreigners or English- men ? — -Englishmen, certainly. 4924. If they were Englishmen there would be no difficulty in finding men, supposing that they had gone through a proper system of training, who knew other things as well as modern languages, and who could teach other things as well as modern languages ? — Certainly. 4925. What is your view of the importance of this study ? — As the university is at present I suppose its chief importance would be in supplying the schools with properly qualified masters. I am an old modern language master myself, and I have no hesitation in saying that the present system not only fails in giving satisfactory results as regards progress in French and German, but has a decidedly bad effect on the general teaching of the schools. 4926. I understand that in your opinion the work to be done in the German and Romance languages is far more important than that in Greek and Latin ; will you state your reasons for thinking so? — The study of these languages is conqiaratively a lecent one, while Greek and Latin have been for centuries the objects of study of the learned, so that in their case stores of materials are ready to the workers’ hands. But workers in the Germanic or Romance languages have for the most part to seek their own materials for the work they hope to begin. And even with regard to Latin itsell’ the chief source of new light on the development of the language must be looked for in Romance. 4927. And you think that the knowledge of those languages is very important as to comparative philology ? — Exceedingly so, for comparative syntax the accurate knowledge of those languages is absolutely necessary. 4928. Why do you think that university instruction in those languages is especially important? — There are in them scarcely any guides for students, who must depend for some time to come upon j)rofessorial teaching. There is no satisfactory Old French gram- mar, no Rroveiifal grammar, and no dictionary of either language, for Raynouard’s Proveiq'al dictionary is scarcelj' to be obtained, and is out of date, so many Froveiq-al books have appeared since its date. 4929. (fl/r. Bernard}) Is it at the Taylor Insti- tution ? — Doubtless it is, as I know Raynouard’s “ Choix des poesies ties troubadours ” is there. S s 3 OXFORD. Bev. F. ^.TtTtltCLQC^ M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. 326 UXTYEltSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. Rev. F. Armitage, M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. 4930. ( ChainnuH.) You say that you find proof of that in the list of books recommended to candidates for the French scholarships; uill you explain what you mean by that ? — No less than five grammars are recommended. Two short ones are those of Bour- guignon and Brachet which contain no syntax what- ever, whereas the period given for study is the loth century in which the most important point is the change from Latin syntax through the loth century syntax to modern syntax. Then there is another larger grammar, that of Chevallet, which is in three large octavo volumes, and is a most unsafe guide, as not only his conclusions but the facts on which he founds them are untrustworthy. Of the MSS. that he gives there have been more recent recensions which entirely overthrow the conclusions he draws. Bur- guy’s grammar again in three volumes is most valuable for one who knows how to use it, but liable to lead into grave mistakes. The other grammar, that of Diez, which is in three octavo volumes also, contains not only French but Provencal, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Wallachian, so that the unfortunate student has to pick out what he wants of French from the rest of the grammar. 4931. I understood you to suggest that an effort should be made in the university' to jirovide .scientific instruction in those languages ? — Certainly. 1932. And that in truth it is not already provided in any accessible books ?— It is not. 4933. Y'ou think that Oxford has particular advan- tages for such a purpose ? — Yes. The MSS. here are magnificent both in Old French and Proveiifal, and furnish an admiralde field of work for scholars. The Roland MS. is the most famous Old French MS. that exists, and perhaps next to it comes the Oxford Psalter. They have been already' edited, the Roland by Miiller, a German, and the Oxford Psalter, not so carefully, by Michel, a Frenchman. The most important Pro- vencal epic is Girart de Rossilhon, the only complete MS. of which exists here. Of it the only jtart which has been jmblished is the first 3,000 lines. Then there are a number of most valuable MSS. which are scarcely known. IVhat little we know of them is from M. Paul Meyers’ Government Report, in which he states that all that has as yet been done has put into our hands only a very small portion of the im- mense riches which are to he found here. 4934. Are those all in the Bodleian ? — They' are all in the Bodleian. 4935. And nothing has been done to utilise them except by foreign scholars? — Nothing, with the ex- ception of the poem of the Black Prince, published by Mr. Coxe, the librarian, for the Roxhurghe Club. 4936. I conclude from what you have said that the instruction which is now giv'en here in modern languages is something very different from what you would recommend ? — Certainly, it is purely elemen- tary, it does not pretend to teach the language scien- tifically', and has no claim to be looked on as real university teaching. 4937. What should you recommend as an improve- ment which would he calculated really to [tromote these studies ? — That the same, or as nearly as possible the same, advantages should be given to modern languages as to classics. If there is a class school for Greek and Latin there certainly should be one for modern languages. I do not say' that it is advisable, but if one is advisable the other certainly should be added. 4938. You may take it of course that the university at present thinks the one is advisable ? — Precisely ; it is so at present. 4939. And you think that upon a just application of the same principles there ought to be a school in modern languages ? — Yes. 4940. Passing through which would (pialify for a degree as it does in Germany'? — Exactly. 4911. Even though the Latin and Greek might not be taken up ? — Exactly'. I should my'self prefer to see Latin taken up whenever French or any' of the Romance languages was taken up, but it is not so necessarily in Germany. 4942. With regard to prufessorsliij)s, at present we have no professorships of modern languages though we have one of comparative philology, but we have teachers in modern languages ; do you think that professors as distinct from teachers are desirable ? — I think so certainly. I think that a professor ought to have a teacher attached, so that the practical work might go on without disturbing his attention, and that his legitimate work in the language itself might not be interrupted by mere elementary teaching. 4943. It has been recommended for philological reasons that various Oriental languages, some living and some dead, should each have a separate professor ; would y'ou upon the same principles recommend that each of those living languages should have a separate professor ? — On the same principles I should recom- mend it, but I think that it is more imperative a great deal in the case of modern languages, because the teaching in the schools, and the supply of masters depends upon the work of the university. We do not want to supply the schools with teachers of Oriental languages. 4944. And because for practical purposes the knowledge is more generally useful ? — Exactly. 4945. {Prof. Smith.) Do I correctly understand that you would have Provencal and Old French taught in the public schools? — No, but I think that the teachers should always have learnt Old French and Provenyak 4946. So that the teacher who teaches the F’rench of to-day should have had a scientific training in the Romance languages ? — Precisely. 4917. {Chairman.) As I understand you, you suggest that in our schools all those languages should be taught by a class of men, Englishmen generally, who have learnt them scientifically in the university ? — Exactly. 4948. {Mr. Bernard.) As regards the suggestion that modern languages should be made the subjects of e.xamination, compulsory or optional, in the schools here, how would you meet the dilliculty which is so often urged that in the case of a living language one man may have an advantage over another derived from the accidental fact that he was horn or educated perhaps in a foreign country ? — I should say that it is only an accident that the university course of teaching is looked upon as a racecourse. After all, the main point is the progress of the study. 4949. We do find I think as a matter of fact that the persons who are successful in gaining the Taylor scholarships, for e.xample, are mostly persons who have had those accidental advantages; is not that the case ? — Yes, that may be partly owing to the exa- miners not being jirofessors or teachers in the univer- sity, who therefore make their examinations more general, and such as would naturally give advantages to a colloquial familiarity with the language proposed for examination. 4950. How would you remedy that defect.^ — By testing by a preliminary examination the colloquial familiarity, to which now too much weight is attached, and by putting the main scientific examination into the hands of university teachers, who as Englishmen engaged in the study of a foreign language, must have studied it scientifically. 4951. Is not some care taken to secure that the persons who examine for the Taylorian scholarships should be persons who have a scientific knowledge of the languages in which the examination takes place? — No doubt it is so ; but I have never had anything to do with the selection of examiners. I may' safely say that the scientific study of F’rench is so very little pursued in England that it would be exceedingly difficult to find lit and proper examiners without going to Germany or F’ ranee. 4952. You do not know perhaps whether at the Taylor Institution they do go to Germany' and F’rance for that purpose ? — I could not say'. 4953. You do not know in fact whether the examiners are Flnglishmen or whether they are foreigners ? — No, buf in any case, if is surely desir- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 827 able tliat examiners for a university scliolarship, should be members of the university. 49oi. In tlie case of a coni[)etition for a pi ize it is perhaps of comparatively little importance that the man who gets it should have had those advantages; but when you have not a j)rize but a general exannna- tion for honours (what you describe as a race), does it not become a serious consideration that one man may have, as against another, such an accidental ad- vantage ? — A rich man sends his boy to a preparatory school to get him ready, you would not object to examine with them boys whose parents were not able to give them such advantages. The advantage he enjoys differs only in degree from that which a boy educated abroad would enjoy. 4955. You are aware probably that this is a diffi- culty which is felt both by masters of schools and in the university ? — Y^es, I am aware that it is so ; but I cannot look upon it as a serious difficulty. The uni- versity is not merely a racing ground for boys sent out by English schools ; but should be willing to receive students and forward their education from whatever quarter they may come. 4956. {Chairman.) From what you have said I conclude that you think the native of one country would not necessarily have any great advantage over the native of another country so far as relates to the science of his own language ? — I think on the contrary that it is generally the foreigner who studies the language more scientifically. 4957. And that if the examinations were addressed to the science of the language more than to practical familiarity with it, the advantage gained by a man’s being a native of the country would be of less im- portance ? — Exactly. 4958. Supposing that we had a School of English Literature here, probably the same difficulty which has been suggested by Mr. Bernard would apply, that is to say, that the foreigner would be weighted in favour of the Englishman ? — No doubt. 4959. But you would think, allowing for that diffi- culty in the degree of its importance, that it is not sufficient to counterbalance the reasons that recom- mend that school ? — Certainly not ; the notion seems to me a degradation of the office of the university. 4960. Have you any suggestion to make about the assignment of fellowships as prizes for proficiency in modern languages ? — The great question for a man’s reading now-a-days is whether it pays, and you would not get the same attention paid to modern languages as is paid to Greek and Latin, unless fellowships and ])rizes were equally awarded to them. 4961. I collect your opinion to be that it would be desirable to give degrees in this school to persons who did not take up that subject only? — Yes. 4962. To unite Latin with it, for instance? — I should myself very much wish to necessitate the taking up of Latin, if Proveii 9 al or Old French or any of the Romance languages were taken up. 4963. {Prof. Smith.) Would you wish to alter the present arrangements of the university up to and in- cluding the first public examination, or would you propose only to establish a school for modern languages in the final examination ? — If it were possible to have as entrance examination such an examination as the present first public examination, as is the case at the German universities, then I should say that the time from a man’s entrance in the university ought to be given to modern languages ; but otherwise I think it would be very advisable to retain the first public examination. 4964. The first public examination, you will re- member, is “ moderations ” wbich come at the end of the first year ? — That answers in difficulty I should think to the Abiturienten Examen for boys leaving school in Germany. I think it would be very advis- able to have that examination passed before modern languages were taken up. At the same time I must .«ay that it is not thouglit so in Germany; on the contrary, the great cry in Germany at the present time is to do away with Latin entirely in the Rcal- schule, and let the boys come up simply knowing modern languages. 4965. {Chairman.) Have you yourself had expe- rience in teaching ? — I held a classical mastership at first at Clifton College, and subsequently a modern languages mastership. 4966. In the discharge of your duties as modern language master, did you form or were you confirmed in any of the opinions that you have been expressing here? — It was the change from a classical mastership to one in modern languages that first made me notice the bad effects of the modern language teaching on the education of the school. In taking the ]>rose. composition of the sixth Form, I found that I could always trace an especially careless piece of work to a German or French lesson immediately preceding. 4967. Were those lessons given, as is the usual practice, by a native of France or Germany ? — No, not necessarily ; on the contrary most of the masters were Englishmen, but, like myself, without scientific training, considering ourselves quite able to teach French and German, because we could speak and write them moderately well. 4968. What inference did you draw from that ex- perience ? — That the modern language teaching in a school, unless as careful and as accurate as the classical teaching, is really injurious to the general teaching of the school. 4969. That is to sa^■ that the analysis of lam>-uariety of creating a readership in the principles of logic, who shall illus- trate the laws of logic by special reference to natural science facts. Students who take a degree in natural science have no special training in logic, and the con- setpience is that, lia\ ing to deal with an innumerable number of fact-', they do not always see the relation which one fact bears to another. ,5023. {Chairmaji.) You mean irductive logic? — Yes. 5024. Is not that at present sufficiently covered by the general system of teaching logic in the university’ ? — It seems to me that it covers too much ground. What I should like to see is general principles brought clearly before the students in biology w'ith illustrations drawn from scientific facts. .5025. {7S-qf. Smith.) You want lectures in logic adapted to the requirements of the natural science students ? — Yes. .5026. {Chairman.) A reader, I suppose, would do for that pur|iose as well as or better than a professor ? - — I should think so. 5027. How would you define tliat particular depart- ment of logic ? — I hardly know how I would define it, but 1 think that if such a readership was founded it would supply a want which shows itself in many ways. .5028. {Prof. Smith.) You think that, if your pro- posal were adopted, a better intellectual training would be conveyed by the study of natural sc'ence than is at present the case ? — I think it would make men more exact in their methods of reasoning questions out for themselves. .5029. {Mr. Bernard.) Is not the study of natural science practically the study ofiuductive logic for this jiurpose ? — 1 suppose it is, and men gain intuitively no doubt a large amount of the power of reasoning ; but I still think a little extra teaching would do them no harm. 5030. A man of great attainments in natural science is usually a great inductive logician, is he not ? — He is, hut it is for the lower and middle men that you want a better training. 5031. {Sir M. W. Bidic)/.) Is not an accurate knowledge of Euclid, for example, quite sufficient for developing the reasoning pow’ers ? — It may be. I only th row it out as a suggestion, but I have an impression that the teaching of the elements of reasoning w'ould be a great advantage to the natural science students. 5032. {Prof. Smith.) You would wish them to understand the logical nature of the processes which they employ in concrete cases ? — Quite so. 5033. {Chairman.) Do you use algebraic or any similar formula! in either of these branches of botany ? — In vegetable physiology chemical formula! are con- stantly used, but I have never attempted to teach those higher branches. 5004. What is the next point to which you wish to draw' the attention of the Commissioners ? — The only other point that I should like to bring before the Commissioners is that for students in natural science a long vacation term of 10 or 12 weeks w'ould be exceedingly convenient. 5035. Do you mean that out of the long vacation it would be an advantage to the students in natural science that they should have an additional term of 10 or 12 weeks for study ? — Quite so. 5036. Would there be any difficulty, so far as your department is concerned, in providing for that ? — No, none whatever. 5037. {Prof. Smith.) If there were a 12 weeks’ term there would he very little of the long vacation left ? — Perhaps I may say that of course those who reside in Oxford for 10 or 12 weeks in the long vacation for the purpose of tr aching, would not neces- sarily remain in Oxford during all the other terms. 5038. You speak of the particular advantages of teaching botany in the summer time as compared with T t OXFORD. M. A. Lawson, Esq., M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. 1:N1VK1::SI I'Y ()!' OXFOU!) COMMISSION: — :\IINLITKS OF EVIDENCIC. 8;J0 OXFORD. M A. Laws:- 7 i, Esq., 3T.A. 5 Nov. 1877. tlic montlis of December and February for instance ? — Yes. ,5039. [Chairman.) In some other branches of natural science we ba%'e been given to understand that the long vacation is practically not a period of rest to the professor ; that what with arranging his instruments and the like, and what with keeping up the research in his subject, much of his vacation is occupied in what may he called professorial duties ? - — I have no doubt that tliat is strictly carrect and tint although it would be convenient to liiologists, especially to tliose who are working at development, it might be veiy inconvenient to the other professors. ,5040. But you yourself would not he afraid of that additional demand njton your time and strength ? — I should hardly call it an addition, it would he merely a change of labour from one part of the year to another. I should take my long vacation in winter instead of in summer. ,5041. {Prof. .Smith.) You would take at any rate a long vacation from all practical courses of instruction during the severest winter months ? — Just so. .5042. {Chairman.) Y"our proposition is not that any young man should be required to give up that part of his vacation, hut that if they were so disposed facilities should be afforded them for doing so? — I would compel those who were reading for biology to spend at any rate one summer vacation at Oxford, because it is hardly possible to get the material which is necessary for teaching vegetable or indeed animal development, without having warmth and light. ,5043. And that you think would not he sutficiently obtained by prolonging the residence of the students, say to the end of Jnly ? — To begin say at the middle of May and to go on for 10 or 12 weeks from that time would he the most convenient and useful arrange- ment. 5044. {Prof. Smith.) Are you satisfied with the present position of tbs botanical subjects in the Natural Science School of the university ? — No, I cannot say that I am. 1 think that the whole system of allowing students to take up special subjects for getting classes in their degrees is not good. 504,5. Botany is very seldom taken up as a special subject, is it ? — No, it has been hut very rarely taken up as a special subject, and I discourage it. .5046. Are the principles of botany examined in as a part of biology in the Natural Science School ? — They are now, and there is a greater tendency to examine still more completely in them. 5047. I think I remember that on a former occasion you had to give a different account of the matter ? — Yes, at one time no doubt I did. As every subject was being allowed to be taken up for the purpose of net- ting a class, I thought of course it was only right that botany should he among them, hut beyond that I do not know that I ever cared particularly for the system. 5048. But you think now, if I understand you correctly, that botany as a part of general biology has its proper place in the university examinations ? — No, 1 think it certainly ought to have a still larger place given to it, but I think that time is coming, and that it will by degrees get its proper place, and perhaps it is better that it should come gradually than that it should he forced on suddenly. The witness withdrew. H. P. H. P. RicnARDS, Esq., M.A., (Fellow of Wadham College), examined. Richards,Esq., M.A. 5049. {Chairman.) Are you a tutor of your college ? — Y"es. 5050. We understand that you wish to submit to us some suggestions with regard to the creation of new professorships, readerships, and university lecture- ships ; perhaps y'ou will have the goodness to do so ? — I should he glad if the Commission would he kind enough to understand that I can only speak with re- ference to the ordinary classical studies of the univer- sity, the subjects that I am engaged in studying or teaching myself ; and as most of the remarks I wish to make will be adverse to the appointment of any additional professors or readers or university lecturers, perhaps I might begin by mentioning a few appoint- ments or changes which I think would be desirable. I should say that the subject of classical archmology and art might receive the attention of a professor. I think that instead of having a professorship of ancient history and a readership in ancient history, it would he desirable to have a professorship of Greek history and a professorship of Roman history^ ; and I think the language and literature of our own country might provide employment for certainly one, and probably two, professors. Perhaps the professorship of poetry might he modified and adapted to this purpose. I think it very desirable that the modern literatures of Germany, France, Italy, and Spain, and perhaps other countries should be to some extent taught in the university, either through the appointment of one or two permanent professors, or through the creation of some university fund, out of which occasional lectures on those subjects by eminent men, either foreigners or Englishmen, could be provided. 5051. Do you think it would be expedient to unite the subject of language with that of literature in those cases ? — I think it would depend very much upon the accident of the tastes and capacities of the professor M’ho was forthcoming. As far as one could lay down any general proposition, it might be better to separate them. 5052. {Mr. Bernard.) But you might choose a man who was eminent for his skill in the philology of a language, or for his knowledge of the literature ? — Yes, I think it very likely you would not find a man who was equally fitted to lecture on both subjects. Those are all the additions or alterations that I should myself recommend as being advisable in' the professor- ships in these literary subjects. Of course I do not presume to offer any opinion on mathematics or science. With reference to the creation of the great number of fresh professorships and readerships now proj)Osed, I should like, if I may be allowed, to express a very strong opinion against its expediency. When I ask myself exactly what function a great number of fresh professors or readers would have in the univer- sity, it seems to me that the answer is very unsatis- factory. I suppose if we had them, the intention would be either that they should give some extra teaching in addition to that which is now given by the tutors of colleges who do the greater part of the work in the university, or else that they should take the place of college tutors to some extent ; they would either be intended to supplement college tutors, or else as a substitute for them. I must say I think in the first case they would be absolutely useless, and in the second case they would be positively injurious. I think they would either do nothing or do harm. The result of my small experience in teaching is a conviction that the sort of teaching which is charac- teristic of college lectures is infinitely preferable to the sort of teaching that a professor can give, for the reason that tiie college lecturer has small classes, and that the professor, if he took the place of several college tutors, would have a very large class. What the bulk of the men who come up to the university wmnt is an infinite amount of individual attention and great care given to their individual shortcomings. A college tutor who has a small class can pay that atten- tion to individuals ; but a pi'ofessor who bad a large class would be quite unable to do so. 5053. ( Chair7)ian.) What is your notion of a small class as distinct from a large one ? — IMy' idea of a small class would be a class that should not exceed 15 or 18, and which certainly should not exceed 20. 5054. Under the system of coml>ined college lec- tures do the classes limit themselves to those num- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 'i — 1 could not say timt tiiere is any rigid limita- tion, but I do luit think ydu would oftcm find a lecture at which the number of students who attended was greater than that. The greater part of our education here is based upon the knowledge of certain books ; rhat is not only so will) the more elementary-])art of it for Moderations, but it is the same for the Final School, and even as regards history. The study of philosophy and the study of history are really based upon the study of certain books, and those books can be better taught, and in fact can only be taught, I think, in small classes by lecturers, and could not be taught, with advantage, by professors to very large classes. That will eminently be the case I think with (ireek and Latin as languages. T do not myself understand how it is possible for any ordinary under- graduate coming up here from school to get a really accurate and exact knowledge of Greek or Latin from the lectures of a professor. 50.55. I suppose you were not here in Professor Conington’s time ? — I was here, but I am sorry to say I never availed myself of his lectures. 5056. We have been told that when he lectured in Virgil he had very considerable classes ? — Yes. Of course I do not mean for a moment to say that under no circumstances could a man derive any benefit from the professor’s lectures, but I think that the bulk of the teaching should be given to men in smaller classes. In a large class it resolves itself into an exposition on the part of the teacher ; and what really does men good is to be asked questions, and to take part them- selves in the thing, to think the difficulties out, atid if they can, to settle them for themselves or to help in the settlement of them. That seems to me the chief reason for preferring college lectures and small classes to professorial ones. But 1 think there are two or three other reasons which, if I am not detaining the Commissioners too long, I should be glad to mention. If you make the university dependent for its instruction in any subject on one or two professors or readers, of course you run a very serious risk, in case for any reason a professor or reader is not a good lecturer. One hears, as it is, occasional complaints of such things as a want of merely physical qualifications, for instance, that a professor lias not got a good voice and that he cannot make himself heard ; or again it may easily happen that a professor is not a good teacher because he has not certain special (lualities ; he may be by far the greatest mgster of his subject in the university or anywhere else, he may be a much better philosopher or scholar than others, but it does not at all follow from that that he is the best teacher. A very inferior man may be a better teacher if he has the gift of exciting interest and talking clearly. If the university is dependent to a great extent on one or two people for its instruction in, say, Greek or Latin, you would run the risk of Greek or Latin suflering verv much from the accident of a professor having any disqualification of that kind. Another point that I think might be mentioned is the much greater interest that a college tutor has as compared with a professor in the instruction and education that he gives or tries to give being efficient. Of course the pi’ofessor has two or three obvious motives for doing ins best, but the college tutor has those motives I think and somelhing more ; he has a very strong per- sonal interest in the efficiency of his teaching as telling on the success of his own pupils and the credit they may do to him or to the college of which he is a member. I w'ould not suggest for a moment that the professor or reader would be careless or anything of that kind, but there is more reason why the college tutor should be energetic than why the professor should be. The college tutor has the professor’s motives and he has others also. If I might mention still another point, I think that if any system of university teaching of that kind were adopted, and if it were a success ; that is to say, if the college tutors were really to some extent supplanted by tlie pro- fessors ; if the work which is now done by the tutors were done by the professors, so that the tutors were not so luuch wanted; it could hardly fail to have (he OXFORD, effect of altering very seriously the j)roportion of college students and unattached students. I know it Rickards Esq may be regarded as an open question whether it is M.A. better for students to be in the colleges or not, and any college tutor who expresses an opinion oneway of 5 Nov. 1877. course is liable to the imputation of being somewhat biassed on the subject ; but I think that anyone who does believe in the expediency of college life, the desirability of bringing men, who come fresh from school, under whatever good influences there may be in a college, would be sorry to see any cliange made that had the effect of turning college students into unattached students. I suppose that what objection tliere is to college teaching as distinct from university teaching, is a certain amount of waste of labour, as, for instance, when you have two men in two colleges close to one another lecturing perhaps each to a class of eight or ten men on the same subject. That is removed to a great extent by the two large com- binations of colleges in this university, of one of which I am secretary, and of which I know something about the organisation and working. There is a consider- able amount of labour in lecturing spared to the tutors, so that they are able to devote themselves better to particular subjects, and at the same time the classes, as far as my knowledge goes, certainly do not b^Jcome inconveniently large ; there is hardly ever a larger number of men than is compatible with a good deal of individual attention to each. That principle is just beginning to be applied to some small extent to the teaching of pass-men. The college to which I belong, Wadham, is in a sort of rudimentai'y com- bination for pass teaching, with two or three other colleges. I cannot imagine, if I may be allowed to say so, anything worse than any scheme for teaching pass-men by means of university lectures, or anything that would bring about large classes of pass-men, for they, more than class-men, recjuire an amount of individual attention such as no lecturer with a large class could give. I think the professors at present are, some of them at any rate, in a somewhat false position. They are required by the conditions of their office, very often to lecture in such a way that their lectures are only suitable to undergraduates — they have to lecture so many times a week for instance — and at the same time they have sometimes the mortifi- cation of finding that undergraduates do not go to them. They are obliged to lecture upon the subjects that are available for the schools, and those subjects are exactly the things that are taught in colleges by the college tutors ; and as a rule, without any' pressure being exerted by the college tutors on behalf of their own lectures, or on behalf of one another’s lectures, the men naturally prefer, I think, college lectures. It does not seem lo occur to them to attend the pro- fessors’ lectures, and when you suggest it to them yon cannot get them to do so. If again y'ou look at it thinking only of the professors, it would seem a waste of energy and certainly not the right division of labour to set a professor to lecture to the ordinary under- graduates of the university. If the professor is, as he ought to be, the greatest master of his subject in the university, if he is the greatest philosopher, or the greatest Greek scholar, or the greatest Latin scholar, it does not seem to be the fittest occupation for him to be lecturing on the Ethics to beginners, or on Homer or Horace to boys who have just come from school. Even if professorial instruction were good for the men, I think it would be a waste of the energies of the professor. That is all that I wish to say upon that subject. 5057. {Mr. Bernard.) The general considerations that you have stated to us are very well worthy of attention, but in applying them, 1 should like to know how far you actually differ from fhe recommendations of the Board of Studies lor the School of Liter® Humaniores, and again from those of tfie Hebdomadal Council. The Board of Studies recommended first three new professors, and afterwards four, and the Council recommended I think three ; and besides, T t 2 832 UMVEli^ilTY OF OXFOKO COMMTSsK^X: — MIXUTF.S OP EVIDKNOE. OXFORD. //. r. lUchards, Esq., M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. tliov reconinicmled the addition of seven readers. Tlie three new prolessors were, one jirol’essor of elassieal languages, one [irol'essor ol' arelueology, ana one pro- fessor of ancient history. I tliink 1 understood yon to say that you were in favour of the aiipointnieut of a professor of classical ai claeology 7 — Yes. But with respect to the additional prol’essor- ship of classical languages, I think 1 understood you to he douhtful on that subject? — Yes; I do not see any occasion for it. 5059. Willi vesjiect to the professorship of ancient history, I think I understood you to say that you rvoukl rather have a prol'essor of Konian history and a professor of Grecian history than two professors of ancient history ? — I ventured to suggest that instead of having, as now, a professor of ancient history and a reader, you should have two juofessors, one of Greek and one of Roman history. .5060. Do you think it would he desirable to have an additional professor of ancient history ? — I think not. .5061. You think the single jirofessorship of ancietit history that we now have is really enough ? — 1 should not keep a professor of ancient history. .5062. Instead of ha\ ing a professor of ancient history and a reader in ancient history, you would liave two professors, one of Grecian history and one of Roman histi ry ? — Yes. 5063. With lespect to these seven readers, of whom four were to be in classics, one in ancient history, and two in pliilosophy, I collect from what you have said that you think it undesirable to ha\ e any of those readers ? — Y'es. 5064. {Chairman.) You have spoken with regard to the combination with which you are connected; in that combination are pains taken to avoid that waste of power of which you spoke by several tutors of adjoining or neighbouring colleges lecturing simul- taneously' upon the same subject to classes so small that they might without inconvenience he combined ? — Ye.s, 1 think that is avoided to a very considerable extent. 5065. To take one example, I see tliat in the first hook of the Ethics of Aristotle two gentlemen of different colleges lecture at the same hour on the same days of the week ; is that the result of a careful con- sideration of the number of students who might be expected to attend the lecture ; do you find it necessary to avoid multiplying the classes too largely ? — I think you would usually' find that if there were only one lecture on the subject, the class would be of a con- siderable size ; certainly far larger than I should think ad visa! ile. 5066. Would that equally apply to the next case of the same sort, the first book of the “ Republic ” of Plato ; would the numiier of students be as great in Plato as in Ari.-.totle ? — Yes; they would be exactly the same, probably. 5067. May I infer from what appears on these lists that, as a general rule, you avoid liaving more than two lectures on the same subject ? — I do not think it would often happen that there were more than two lectures on tlie same part of the same book. It might often happen that there were two or three in Greek or Roman history, but it would frequently be the case that they were on different periods. .5068. Are the gentlemen who lecture on these sub- jects selected merely to represent their colleges, as being the tutors whom their colleges have appointed ; or out of several college tutors do you choose those whose reputation stands highest? — I think it is usually after consultation with a man’s own college, that he offers a lecture and the combination accepts it. .5069. I infer that the practical working of this system is that equality of power is assumed as between tlie tutors of different combined colleges who lecture on the same subject? — Y’^es. 5070. If it should so happen that any one man has a rcqmtation in the uniiersity decidedly' greater than others have, is there anything in the .system which would |irevent the students from gravitating to his lectures ? — The students u-ually ask ads ice as to n hat lectures they had better attend ;' in fact ihcy arc usually directed to particular lecturers by their tutors, and the tutors would considcr*all the circumr,;aiices, I think, and advise tlm men as they thought in each case was best. 5071. ould there b.'' any tendency, more than you think is tlesirable, to advise the students to go to a tutor of their own college? — I think not. ft con- stantly hapjiens that a tutor of one college, who would it no combination existed give a lecture upon a sub- ject, sinqily waives it because he knows lhat a tutor of another college will do it as well or better. .5072. {Mr. Bernard.) In your combination do the lecturers admit to their lectures men who ai'e not within the combination, but who belong to colleges outside the combination ? — I do not know that it often happens, but there is nothing at all to j)revent it. It would rather depend upon the lecturer. We have passed a .sort of general resolution admitting outsiders to the combination, but you cannot make a resolution of that kind binding upon each particular college. 5073. Could you tell us what the effect o^ the resolution was ? — That the members of colleges which did not belong to the combination should be admitted to the lectures on payment of fees. As far as I can trust my recollection, the scale of fees was something like two guineas a term for a lecture thiee times a week, and thirty shillings for a lecture two days a week. 5074. As I undei stand, that resolution is supposed not to make it the duty of a lecturer to receive sucli outsiders, but rather to authorise him to do it if he likes ? — Yes ; I think it was a mere general resolution of expediency. 5075. Do you think there ought to be any general regulation uj)on that subject, either reejuiring lecturers to admit outsiders or prohibiting them from doing so ? — I think 1 should be inclined to leave it either to the individual lecturer or to the individual college. 5076. {Prof. Smith.) Are the lectures given under the combined system generally speaking cateche- tical ? — Most of them 1 should say are. Of course there is a considerable difference between the lectures on books for Moderations and lectures on such books as the Republic and the Ethics for the final school, and lectures on history. I sup|)ose a lecture on history does not lend itself to question and answer ; it must be more or less professorial. 5077. Is it not a fact that some of the lectures under the combined .system which have produced the greatest effect in the university and which have en- joyed the greatest reputation, have been quite of a professorial character ? — I cannot say so from my knowledge at all. I do not know it as a fact. 5078. You have mentioned some of the motives which tend to keej) a college tutor up to his work ; is there not one motir e which is very much wanting in his case, namely, the motive of any prospect of advancement — I thiidc that is wanting to some ex- tent, but I think it may be remedied, and that some ari-angement might be made which would perhaps have the same result, without the substitution of the professorial system for the collegiate system. 5079. I am at the present moment not thinking of the professorial system at all ; but would not the institution of readerships, tenable with college tutor- ships, supply a considerable stimulus of the kind to which I have been referring to the college tutors ? — I think perhaps it might apply some stimulus to him as long as he was a tutor. I do not know that the stimulus would continue when he became a reader. 5080. {Chairman.) You said in answer to Professor Smith’s question that it occurred to you that there was some other method of meeting that objection. What is the method which occurs to you ? — I think it cer- tainly desirable that the jjosilion of tutors shotdd be somewhat improved ; I mean that the remuneration which they get should be increased ; that a man UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 838 slioulil not (as is the case at present) step into hiseoni- plete tnlorsliip all at once, but arrive at it gradually. In a note which you were so good .‘is to send to Mr. Dallin, I see you say that you arc prepared to oiler some evidence on the subject ot scholarships and fellowships, if that subject came within the scope of the present impiiry of the Connnissioners. We have heard from other gentlemen some opinions expressed upon these subjects, so far as related to the general system of the university, hut not so far as related to the constitution of particular colleges. Of course anything which seems to you to hear upon university requirements we should he (piite willing to hear; hut we must postpone the consideration of the (piestion of the footing upon which scholarships and fellowships should he held in this or that college?— I do not feel sure whether the points which I have m my mind would he regarded as quite coming under 3' our description. .<5082. Perhaps I might assist you if 1 were to mention some of the matters which we have heaid from others. We have been told hy some that the numher of these prizes, scholarships, for example, was rather larger than was desirable in the university ; by others that there was an inequality in the emoluments which it would he desirable to correct hy making an equal maximum ; hy some that the age ought to be regulated and not allowed to exceed a certain ma.ximum, and so on. Upon subjects of that sort we should he very willing to learn your opinion ? — I should be glad if 1 might be allowed to express an ojiinion about scholarshi])s, that in many cases their value is excessive, and that there is too much of that kind of competition between colleges, which consists in gradually raising the value of their scholarships with the view of catching a superior scholar. It is veiy desirable, 1 think, that if ])ossible the value of the scholarships should be made more uniform ; and (what seems to me a very important point) that if possible (as to which, I confess, [ have great doubts), steps should be taken to prevent scholarships being held by men who are not in need ot assistance, who have themselves means, or whose fathers are suffi- ciently wealthy to maintain them very well without assistance. .5083. A plan of that nature has been mentioned by one or two gentlemen ; that at first the absolute value of a prize scholarship should be small, for example 25/. or 30/. a year, but that there should be a fund within the college which should be used to increase it in favour of those whose circumstances rendered assist- ance necessaiy. Have you any opinion to oifer upon the advisability or otherwise of such a scheme ? — think it might have the effect of preventing a great many men from coming up if they bad not the posi- tive assurance of a sufficient sum of money to support them here. ,5081. Do you yourself see your way to suggest any scheme which would be likely to work well, by which a test of poverty, or of comparative poverty, might be applied ? — No, 1 am afraid I do not. 5085. With regard to fellowships we have heard opinions expressed upon such questions as whether tliey should be held upon a tenure of duty, or of service, or of research, and if so -wdiat means should be used to secure that the equivalent was obtained ? — I should like to keep up a very considerable pro- portion of those fellowships which are commonly de- scribed as prize fellowships, which are not connected with any special educational work or duties of study or research, simply for the sake ot introducing men to professions. 1 think if there were no chances of that kind, the effect upon the university would pro- bably be very considerable in the^diminution ot the number, and stid more in the falling oft of the quality, of the students who come up here. 5086. {Prof. Smith.) Do you think that the num- ber of students in the university is seriously affected by the prospect of those 20 prizes? — I think that if you swept away all fellowships, except those that were "connected with cohege work or with special duties. advisable to are elected should be ?- that point. there would be far less inducement lo }'oung men to come uj) here, to s[)eml three or four years in work here, and then lo begin their.professional career. .5087. (Mr. hcrnrtrd.) From your own observation, do you think there are many men who are enabled by those fellowships to enter professions and who otherwise would not have been able to enter them ? — Yes, I think there is a considerable number. It is partly that, I think, and partly that although without a fellowship) they might have entered the profession, yet they could not have both come to the university and entered the pirofession ; they would have entered the profession without coming here at all. 5088. But a fellowship does not enable a man to come to the university ? — No, but fathers make the sacrifice of sending their sons, to the university in the hope that they will then be able to supjiort them- selves for some years whilst they are studying for their jsrofessions. .5080. (Chuirmait.) You did not, I think, express any opinion u[)on the (piestion whether it would be fi.x any maximum of age for those who for scholar.dups, and if so, what that -I have not any’ definite opinion upon If I fixed any age I think I should say 19, but I have no strong opsinion about it. 5090. (Prof. Smith.) Y"ou have expressed an opinion very adverse to the education of piass-men being given by’ j)ublic lectures ; is that opinion quite absolute and universal ; are there no cases in which you would wish pass-men to attend piublic lectures in the univer- sity ? — I think if there were any subject in winch it was impossible to teach them in a catechetical manner there would be no harm in their attending an uni- ver.dty teacher’s lecture. If it is simply a lecture on his p)art he may as well lecture to 100 men as to 10, but if he has to p>ay any attention to individuals, which I think is always desirable when it can be done, then the class should be small. 5091. Do you not think that there might be in the case of puss-men a stimulating ami elevating effect from their having an opiportunity of hearing lectures upon subjects which they could understand given by very eminent men ? — -1 think it might certainly be valuable to some extent, but not as forming the stapile of their education here. 5092. But if you bad a lirofessor of English litera- ture you would wish that many men, who were not reading for honours should take an intere't in his lectures, would you not? — Unquestionably. I might p5erhap)s mention that I have had some slight expe- rience in the teaching of piolitical economy to p>ass- men. A suggestion has been made in some of these schemes that there should be not only' a pirofessor but a couple of readers in piolitical economy ; that would mean the teaching of political economy to large classes, I supp)ose, if the readers and pirofessor took upon themselves any of the work that is now done by college tutors ; but I am convinced, from the little experience I have of it that it is eminently a subject to be taught in small classes to a few men. 5093. I understand you to think that the educa- tion of class-men as well as of piass- men requires a great deal of individual and pjersonal attention ? — Yes. 5094. Do you not think that pirocess may piossibly be overdone and may be a cause of future intellectual weakness instead of strength in the pjcrson to whom it is appilied ? — Yes, I think it may be overdone. 5095. Do you not think that a young man who like the German student has to make what he can out of OXFORD. //. P. Richards,Esq., M.A. r> Nov. 1877. the lectures that he hears, has one particular form of training (wiih the loss of some great advantages no doubt) which is rather wanting to the student who is trained entirely in a college at Oxford? — I think the reading of books p)iobably gives a man much the same training as the hearing of a lecture of that kind. 5096. Even if the books are expounded to him and lectured up>on to him in catechetical classes by a tutor who knows bim personally' ? — I did not so much mean books of that km.l as such other books bearing on the subject as a man is sure to read. The witness withdrew. T t 3 OXFORD. Rev. J. Lec/ge, 31. A. 5 Nov. 1877. 884 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMAIISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. Tho Rev. J.uncs Legge, M.A. (Professor of Cliiiiese), e.xaminetl. .5097. (C/iaij-ma?i.) We shall be glad to hear any- thing which you are prepared to suggest to us as to the subject of your newly constituted ])rofessorship ? — It is only with reference to that that 1 wish to have the opportunity of making a very few observations to the Commissioners. The constituting of a Chinese chair shows the increasing interest that the university is taking in the teaching of Eastern languages. In connexion with that I look to the statute which is now before Congregation for the educating and giving a knowledge of Eastern languages to selected candidates for the Indian service. 1 hope that ere long selected candidates for the consular and diplomatic service in China will also receive a preliminary training here in Oxford. Now, what has seemed to me ot importance is that in every case where an Eastern living language is to be taught the professor should have the assistance of a native scholar speaking that language, so that, while the duties of the chair of course would remain the same so far as teaching the science of the language, the grammar of it, and the literature of it was concerned, there would also be the means of securing a good pro- nunciation, and for the practice of conversation. I do not say that it is positively essential, but I consider it very imj)ortant, that the professor should be assisted by such a native scholar. It is a thing which is done in Paris at the present time in the school of living languages, that is in addition to the chair of the Chinese language and literature and other chairs in the itniver- sity of France. In the school of living languages the French professor is assisted by a native speaking the language which belongs to his department. 5098. Would it be easy to find such a person who also speaks French well, with suHicient general educa- tion to be useful ? — No ; nor to find one who also speaks English well and with sufficient education. Such assistance could only be employed with effect in con- nexion with the superintendence of the professor. 5099. To make a native assistant useful, would it not be necessary that he should speak English .? — It is better that he should not. 5100. {Prof. Stnifh.) The professor would have to be present, would he not, during the instruction ? — Yes, he would have to be present. At least if the j)rofessor need not always be present, he would have to direct the instruction. I know something of this from experience, because I was asked by the Government of Hong Kong to take the superin- tendence of the young men that were sent out to be trained as interpreters for the Government service in that colony. I met them once a week and directed their studies, and told them what books to read, and at the same time they had each of them a Chinese teacher who taught them the language, and such a teacher was present when I met them. I watched their conversation with him and also directed him in what subjects he was to test their ability. I am con- fident myself that the object of the Government in sending young men to learn Telugu and Tamil and other Eastern languages will very much be frustrated if there is not a native assisting the professor. 5101. Before he could be of any use to the students, the students must have acquired a considerable know- ledge of the language, must they not ? — No, in the course of ten days he may begin to be of use to them. 5102. Fie not knowing a word of English, and they not knowing a word of Chinese ? — Even if there were no professor to assist and superintend, in the course of a fortnight they would be able to communicate with him slightly. So it is in China. When young men went out there in connexion with the consular service, with missionary work, or with the commercial service, the long experience which I had had, always led me to tell them when they con- sulted me about engaging a teacher, to get one who could not speak a word of English. That seemed un- promising, and was rather hard to them for the first two or three weeks, but at the end of two months they were much farther advanced than if they had begun with a man who could talk English pretty fluently to them. However, if a good man could be got, and I should think it would be possible in India to get a man who had a considerable knowledge of English, there is no objection to it. A Chinese scholar speaking English also could hardly be obtained. 5103. How is the process conducted ? Do they for instance take up a pen and say, “What do you call this?” — No, they have a purely Chinese book. Sup- posing a young man wants to read a copy of the New Testament, he takes up the first chapter of John, and reads a column of Chinese characters. Fie is able to refer to them in a dictionary, and very probably he guesses at and identifies the meaning of a good many of them, and by-and-by his teacher and himself come to have an understanding as to the meaning of a good many characters, the meaning of a good many sounds, and the names of those characters. But in a university like this there ought always to be a professor of those languages who can give a knowledge of the structure and genius of the language and its literature, and superintend also what is done by the native assistant. Ihe professor also probably would be able to talk freely with the teacher and with the students in the language itself just as I could do in Cantonese; but as you would not expect an Englishman to give the correct French pronunciation or German pronun- ciation to words, it is better to have a native of the country for the purpose of pronunciation and for the practice of conversation in the language. 5104. (J/r. Bernard.) I suppose the professor would be relieved to some extent from the necessary expenditure of time involved in teaching Chinese colloquially ? — He would not be i-elieved so much as that the colloquial language would be taught effectually and correctly. 5105. Do not you think that the Chinese language could be taught colloquially and correctly, for example, by a Chinese scholar who was fitted to hold the Chinese chair here ? — Yes, he could teach the language effectually, but the dialects are very many in China. 5106. The object in such a case would be almost solely the benefit of persons who come here with the view of afterwards using the language in China ? — Entirely for the benefit of persons who come here with the view of afterwards using the language in China and in India. 5107. The professor of Chinese in Paris, the chair of which has been filled by a very eminent and dis- tinguished person, has, as I understand you, a native Chinese as his assistant ? — Not in the College of Fiance. The late Stanislaus Julien, whom I knew very well, could not speak a single sentence in Chinese, and yet no man had a better knowledge of the structure of the Chinese language. He became very extensively acquainted with the literature of China, but he could not speak a single sentence. 5108. And such a case might occur here, you think ? — No, I think not because you will always find that the man to fill the chair of Chinese will be selected from gentlemen who have been in China in some service or other. 5109. M. Julien acquired a very great reputation, did he not ? — Y^es, he was a great Chinese scholar, but he was no Chinese speaker at all. 5110. Do you happen to know whether the Chinese professor in Paris has a class who attend him ? — Y"es. I have not been there to see him, but 1 hear from him pretty frequently, and I know that, besides the chair in the university', there is the school of living languages where there are a F^ersian teacher, an Arabic teacher, and a Chinese teacher. 5111. Have all those teachers, do you know, native assistants ? — Y^es, they have all native assistants. 5112. {Prof. Smith.) So that you consider, if I understand you, that the university is not quite in the right direction in what it is doing with reference to the tcacherships of the native languages of India ? — Yes, that is my impression, that it is not quite in the right direction. 5113. Y’ou think that the proper way to teach those vernacular languages would have been to obtain three or four native teachers and place them under the con- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. .335 trol of tlic professor of Sanskrit ? — If the professor of Sanskrit had any acquaintance with those Dravidian languages ; but if not, you should get one who had such an accjuaintance. I would go on to say that my opinion is tliat the Government receiving such benefit and help from the university in the training of those candidates might very properly be asked to bear the ex])ense of those teachers; and, moreover, by doing that it would efi'ect a saving of money to itself as com- pared with its outlay for the training of young men for the consular service now in China. I speak specially of that because I am acquainted with it. I do not know so exactly about India. 5114. Supposing your proposal were adopted, and the university eiideavoured to establish an Oriental School upon the basis that you have described with a certain number of professors, and under them a cer- tain number of native teachers, have yon formed any conception of what would be the number of pro- fessors and teachers that would be required for that purpose ? — For Chinese only one professor and one teacher. 5115. For the languages of India how many ? — For the languages of the south one professor, a Dravidian professor, and three teachers. 5116. ( Chairman.) Besides Telugu and Tamil, what other language would you say ? — The Kanarese or Malayalam. 5117. Is Kanarese spoken upon the west coast of India — Yes. 5118. What is the language of the Malabar penin- sula? — Telugu, Tamil, and Malayalam with Kanarese more to the north. 5119. {Prof. Smith.) Then for the languages of northern India, what would you want ? — I would only want one Sanskrit professor and two or three teachers. 5120. With reference to the Persian and Arabic, how would you propose to deal with those languages — I would have a professor of Persian and a teacher. Of course the teacher would be a man acquainted with what I may call the Parisian of Persia. 5121. {Chairman.) By the Parisian of Persia do you mean the language of Teheran ? — Yes, the language of the Court. 5122. Would you apply the same principle to Ai-abic ? — Yes, but where are you to find the capital of Arabia ? 5123. Modern Arabic is different from the language of Arabic literature, is it not ? — Yes, it is very different. I do not speak from personal knowledge of it, but I have understood that it is very different. 5124. {Prof. Smith.) You would require for Arabic, as I understand you, one professor and one teacher ? —Yes. 5125. Is it your opinion that with the staff you have mentioned, namely, five professors and eight or nine teachers, you would have the essential elements of a living school of Oriental philology capable of impart- ing a practical knowledge of the languages such as is required for the purposes of our Eastern Empire ? — Yes. 5126. ( Chairman.) Is Japan to be left out of that calculation ? — Yes. 5127. Is the Japanese language perfectly distinct, or a dialect of the Chinese ? — It is a distinct lan- guage, but you would not require a professor of Japanese. Of course a professor of Japanese would be a very good thing, but although it is a distinct lan- guage in itself the Chinese is so much mixed up with it that you had better give it to the Chinese professor too. 5128. I understand you to say that if there were no professor of Japanese the professor of Chinese could undertake, as a makeshift, the direction and teaching of Japanese? — Yes, I mean supposing that there was a teacher of .lapanese here. By means of my knowledge of Chinese I could have sufficient intercourse with him. The gentlemen who go from China to Japan and learn the language there, find their knowledge of Chinese of very great importance. 5129. Is the written character a cognate one? — The standard works of Japan are composed entirely in pure Chinese, both the Chinese character and the Chinese idiom. Then they have a second class of works in which the Chinese and Japanese are mixed up together. Then there is a third class of literature, the vernacular, which is purely Japanese, but the collo- quial Japanese and Chinese are different languages and have different types. 5130. Is there any other suggestion which it occurs to you to offer ? — I have no other suggestion, only I v/ould again venture to repeat what I said, that the Government might be asked to supply these native scholars, and, so far as Chinese is concerned, the Government would have a less expenditure in the first two years of every one of the students than by its present plan of sending the students directly to China, and supplying every one of them with a teacher. Supposing there were 10 students learning Chinese, they would be paying say ,^15 a month each for the salary of his teacher, and the teaching of the 10 at Pekin would cost between 300/. and 400A; and between 300/. and 400/. would be rather more than would be required for a teacher from Pekin here. 5131. {Mr. Bernard.) How many consular students do we maintain in China ? — I suppose on an average from 10 to 15. 5132. {Chairman.) I understood you to say that in your opinion the Government might be expected to pay for those native assistants. I suppose that is founded upon your idea that it would be for their ad- vantage to do so ? — Y es, for their advantage, certainly. Of course in case of the Government having from 10 to 15 men educated here, the expense would be less to them than the present system of sending them to China, and providing them with teachers there. If the number was greater, the saving would be still greater to the Government, and in the case of students for commercial objects or for missionary objects coming here, they might be required to pay a fee which would go towards the support of the teacher. 5133. Does your experience enable yon to tell us what sum would have to be allowed for keeping a native assistant of that class here ? — I think from 250/. to 300/. a year. I know that I had a Chinese scholar living with me in Scotland, several years ago, for a couple of years, and I paid him about that, and that included his passages. I engaged him for a term of five years, and I had to send him to China before the end of that time, but I concluded that the 250/. a year would pay all his expenses, and pay his passage here and back again. 5134. {3Ir. Bernard.) Is a consular student a person who goes from England commonly knowing no Chinese ? — Knowing no Chinese. 5135. When he gets to China, what does he do ? — He is allowed two years for the jn’eliminary study of the language. 5136. Does he perform any functions, or has he any duties during those two years ? — According to the theory of the consular student he ought to have no duties ; however, veiy often his time is more or less interfered with. If a clerk falls sick in the consulate, a student may be asked to do some duty for him, but he is supposed to have two years for his preliminary study. 5137. He has no regular or official duties during those two years ? — No, no regular or official duties. 5138. So that the Government would not lose in that way by his being here instead of there ? — No. .5139. {Prof. Smith.) Have you formed any opinion with reference to a proposal which I think must have been brought to your notice, a proposal to establish an Indian or perhaps, to use a wider term, an Oriental institute, in order to bring together the professors and students of the Oriental languages, and to give them opportunities and means of giving and receiving in- struction? — Yes, I have heard of it, but it seems to me important rather for the young men than for the pro- fessors. I think it is very desirable that there should be an Oriental institute where young men training for T t 4 OXFORD Reu. J. Legge, M.A. 5 Nov. 1877. 336 UI^lVERITY OF OXFORD COIMMSSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. OXFORD. if Cl'. .J . Leyye, M.A. 5 Xov. 1877. service in the East might he brought together. There is jii't onl}' one otlier point wliich 1 wisli to mention, and that is tlie state of the Chinese library liere in tlie Bodleian, which is very small, a mere handful of books, when you think of tlie literature of the country and the number of books m C'hinese that there ought to be in the Bodleian. .5140. {Chnirwun.) Are Chinese hooks easy to be obtained ? — Yes, very easy. ol tl. And a competent Chinese scholar would know how to make a proper selection? — Yes. .514-2. Are they costly ? — No, they are considerably cheaper than books at home. 5143. {Prof. Soiith.) Are those books printed? — Yes, they are pnnted. 5141. {Mr. Bernard.) Would it involve any large amount of expenditure to make the collection of Chinese books in the Bodleian what you think it ought to be? — No. 500/. would procure a large snjiply. Ttie literature of the Chinese is very vohuninous, especially the statistical literature. The statistical .account of China by the present dynasty would make a book like the “ Encyclopaidia Britannica ” if it were translated into English. 5145. It has a poetical litciature, has it not?— Yis; that is not so extensive; but the historical literature and the statistical literature is very extensive, and they have a classical literature and works upon the classics without end. 5146. Is the British Museum fairly furnished with this literature ? — It is very fiiirly furnished. They are now just about adding, by the exiienditure of .500/, 1 think, a complete copy of the largest collection of literary works that has been published. The witness withdrew. Adjourned. UNIVEUSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 3"7 LONDON. 19th February 1878. Present : 'I'liK Right IIonoukahle LORD 8ELBORNE in the Chair. 'I’lIE Right ITon. the Eari. of Redesdaee. .Sir Mattheav White Ridley, Bart., M.P. 'I'he Right IIon. Mountague Bernard, D.C.L. Professor H. J. S. Smith, M.*A. The Rev. ' 1 '. Vere Bayne and T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretaries. E. R. Lankester, Esq., M.A. (Fellow of Exeter College), examined. dlfV. (C/iairman.) You are a fellow of Exeter College and have given special attention to the natural science branch of the studies of the university P — Yes. .5148. The Commission will be very glad to hear whatever you have to submit to them either upon that subject or generally ? — There are two distinct points upon which I wish to be allo.ved to offer some remarks : first, with reference to the relations between College teaching aiid ITniversity teaching; and, secondly, with reference to the possibility and desirability of reform- ing the Medical Faculty at Oxford. With reference to'" the first matter, without venturing to attempt a complete exposition of such a scheme of organisation as appears to be necessary for the future healthy working of the university and colleges, I will en- deavour to state what form (in my opinion) such an organisation should take. I do not limit myself to the department of physical science, though 1 believe that such a scheme as that which I would propose is more needed in that than in other branches of study. The difficulties experienced at the present time both at Oxford and at Cambridge, which have led to the appointment ot the Commissions which are now sitting may be traced to the want ot co-opera- tion between the different colleges and betw'een tlie colleges as a body and the university as an indepen- dent corporation. The endowments of the colleges cannot, as college statutes now stand, be handed over to a common university fumi, even were the govern- ing bodies of colleges willing to give them or part ot them up. On the other hand, by letting their lodgings to studenis and by undertaking the instruction of such students the governing bodies of colleges make so con- siderable an income that they cannot be expected voluntarily to give up their present control over the undergraduates’ studies and fees. At the same time it is important to observe, that the college system of instruction has never been found adequate to the requirements of jirofessional training, nor of the advanced study of any branch of physical science where expensive and well-organised laboratories are needed, and it is now admitted also by many teachers of literary and historical subjects, that in those studies too the narrow limits of a college staff cannot provide adequate representatives of all branches. The attempts at “ combined college lectures,” which have been made in various subjects, are strong evidence of the fact, that a need of combination is felt. But the “com- bined college lectures” are not more than attempts to meet the need ; they do not succeed in so doing, since the machinery by which they are governed is in- competent. In these “ combinations ” there is no jiower of selection, no common system of payment, no adjustment possible, owing to the fact that the combination is a purely voluntary one, and that it is not favourable, but antagonistic to the pecuniary interests of those who enter into it, causing them in- creased labour without proportionate increase of pay. There appears to be, nevertheless, a strong opinion at present in the universities in favour of the studies of the undergraduates being conducted not by isolated college staffs, but by a liarmonious and organised com- bination of those .staffs. With regard to phy.'^ical science, 1 can confidently say Irom my own experience, Q 6223. that isolated college lectureships in that subject are almost entirely useless — useless to the college as an educational body, and unsatisfactory to die lecturer who desires reasonable occupation. If once the prin- ciple of combination for educational purposes is ad- mitted, it becomes a very obvious suggestion that the combination sliould embrace not only the college lec- tures, but the professoriate. The best means of providing for and organising this combination, in fact, the complete union and redistribution of the teaching forces of colleges and university appears to me to be the chief and immediate problem in university reform. It is clearly not possible to adopt the simple course that has been advocated by some persons of breaking up the college corporations by assigning their property to the university, and leaving to the colleges only sufficient revenue to carry on the work of hoarding- houses. At the same time the other extreme course of founding a few professorships from college revenues, and leaving things otherwise as they now are, would entirely fail to give the aid whii h is needed in the matter of organised combination, and would, in fact, greatly aggravate the difficulties of tlie present posi- tion. It would not, moreover, I venture very earnestly to submit, be in any way' satisfactory' to attempt a system of combinarion or something in the way of the creation of a complete staff of university teachers, paid by taxation of the colleges, for ])hy- sical science alone. I would draw attention to the fact that already physical science suffers in the univer- sity through being placed on a footing in relation to the colleges different from that occupied by the other studies leading to the B.A. degree. At |)resent in both Cambridge and Oxford physical science is chielly taught, not by isolated college lecturers, but by the university professors, and it cannot be denied that, as a consequence, the colleges take very little interest in the subject. The tutors of a college are not anxious that students who enter at that college should study a subject not taught nor pursued by themselves. Accordingly if the present sy stem were extended in this subject only, and larger provision were made for natural science teaching by university teachers unconnected with colleges, a still greater indifference or even hostility to natural science would grow up in the colleges. Under these circumstances, I am anxious to urge upon general consideration, the plan of recognising all deffnitely appointed teachers of all subjects as “university teachers,” whether de- riving their stipends from college sources, or, as ])ro- fessors, from special endowments and university taxation. This plan amounts virtually to a resusci- tation of the university and the revival of the jirofessorial system by an alliance of colleges. In this way it seems to be possible that we may effect greatly desired changes without outraging any pre- judices. No ancient form will be abolished, no venerable name altered. It will be recognised that existing institutions possess the greatest capabilities of excellence, and that stronger sanctions and clearer deffnitions are alone required to make the practice of the university as admirable as its theory. In relation to such a plan of definitely and finally combining the colleges and the university I should like to he allowed U u LONDON. S. R. Lankester, Esq., M.A. 19 Feb. 1878 338 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LONDON. E. 11. Lankester, Esq., M.A. 19 Feb. 1878. to quote some remarks of Sir William Hamilton. He has shown most instructively as 1 think in articles published in the “ Edinburgh Review,” (repub- lished in 1853 in his ‘Discussions,’) how the uni- versity with its profes.sors and factilties was gra- dually annihilated and their place taken by the colleges. The particular remarks of Sir William Hamilton to which I refer are those in which speaking of the history of the university lie s[>eaks of w'hat he calls the downfall of the university. At page 470 of his “ Discussions ” he says, “ The downfall “ of the university has been the result, and the neces- “ sary result of subjecting it (speaking of the univer- “ sity as distinct from the colleges) to an influeuce “ jealous of its utility, and though incompetent to “ its functions anxious to usurp its place.” That Influence is the influence of the colleges, and at the present day their influence is in nowise abated. Sir William Hamilton then points to the true remedy which lies, he says, in at once proceeding to give the colleges the organisation anti characteristics of the university which they have destroyed. He says that the present evils must continue if “ a radical recon- “ struction of the whole collegial system do not “ identify the interests of the public and the private “ corporations, and infuse into the common governors “ of both a higher spirit, and a more general intelli- “ gence.” In another passage on p.age 425, referring to the history of Oxford, and of the universities of Paris and Louvain, he says, “ In the foreign colleges,” that is the colleges which grew up by the side of the university, “ the instructors were chosen from compe- “ tence. In those of England, and especially in those “ of Oxford, the fellows in general owe their election to “ chance. Abroad as the colleges were visited, super- “ intended, regulated, and reformed by their faculty “ their lectures were acknowledged by the university as “ public courses, and the lecturers themselves at last re- “ cognised as its professors. In England as the univer- “ sity did not exercise the right of visitation over the “ colleges their discipline was viewed as private and “ subsidiary ; while the fellow' was never recognised “ as a public academical character, far less as a “ privileged academical instructor.” “ The alliance,” he says, “ betw'een the colleges and university in “ Paris and Louvain was in the circumstances perhaps “ a rational improvement ; the dethronement of the “ university by the colleges in Oxford and Cam- “ bridge without doubt a preposterous as an illegal “ revolution.” 5149. That was written about 60 years ago, was it not ? — About 50 years ago, but it was republished in 1853 without withdrawing those remarks. Some such plan as this of an alliance between the colleges and the university is what I wish to advocate. Such a plan is not limited to a simply nominal recognition, but involves the following details of organisation ; and unless details similar in kind to these are specially enacted and enforced by an authori- tative body like the Commissioners, it seems to be impossible that an effective organisation of combined teaching can be brought into existence. I have drawm up such a possible scheme merely as a suggestion. I will leave the papers with the Commission if they desire it. 5150. i^Mr. Bernard.) Will that paper explain what you mean by “ recognition ” ? — Yes. I suggest that the status of university teacher shall be accorded to every professor in the university, and to every lecturer appointed by a college to a fellowship, tenable on the condition of teaching, or to a lecture- ship, of a definite annual value. Then I propose that these university teachers should be grouped into certain l)oards of studies or faculties according to the subjects taught by them, and corresponding to the “schools” of the university, namely a faculty (1) of theology, (2) of law, (3) of medicine, (4) of literature and history, ( 5) of physical science and mathematics. Further, 1 suggest that certain powers should be ac- corded to those faculties, and that the faculties so constituted should have very definite duties. The con- stitution of faculties similar to those which I suggest might difler in some details of their organisation, according to circumstances, without abandonment of the general principle. 5151. May I ask whether you propose any control by the university over the appointment of college teachers ? — No, only so far as the faculties would exercise control upon the admission of new individuals to their number. 5152. (^Chairman.) That is to say, if the college appointed a tutor the faculty should have the power of rejecting him ? — Yes. 5L53. And then would he cease according to your scheme to be a college tutor. Would tliat disqualify him for being a college tutor ? — No ; it would disqualify him from exercising the powers of a member of the faculty. 5154. {Prof. Smith.) Would you propose that other persons who are not college tutors or lecturers or jiro- fessors should also be admissible to the faculty ? — No ; only the teaching body, the professors and the college teachers. 5155. Not under any circumstances persons who might be private teachers ? — No ; I did not contem- plate that. That is a matter of detail, but the object in view would be this, viz., that whilst the individuals retain their relation with the college, the combinations of teachers should resemble the faculties of the uni- versities, as elsewhere constituted, for instance in the Scotch universities. 5156. {EarlofRcdesdalc.) If a man is to be rejected by the faculty, and is .still to continue a tutor of the college, you -would at once create a double system ? — He would not be rejected by the faculty except for very grave reasons, and if such an institution as the “ ficulties ” were once started, a college would net be likely to present a man who was not admissible. Of course he would not be rejected merely on the ground that he was somewhat inferior. 5157. My question had merely reference to what you stated, viz., that the rejection of a man by the faculty was not to prevent his being a tutor of a col- lege ? — In spite of any difficulty which might arise in that matter, I think it is necessary to give the col- lege that power, because otherwise such an arrangement as the creation of the faculties would be very distaste- ful to the colleges. It would be something like taking all power out of the hands of the colleges. 5158. {3Ir. Bernard.) Do you mean by grave reasons manifest incompetence Yes, not merely inferiority but actual incompetence. 5159. Supposing that the number of teachers of a given subject is already in the opinion of the faculty, quite large enough, that 1 presume would not be a reason in your view? — No; but I think there might be some plan arranged by which the faculties could control or suggest to the colleges what should be done in that way. 5160. {Prof. Smith.) Would you propose that a college tutor or lecturer so admitted to the faculty should retain the same duties, which he has at present with reference to the students of his own college ? — Y’’es, he might have special duties such as the super- vision of the students of his own college. I think that each member of a faculty, whether collegiate or pro- fessorial, should have one vote in the meeting of his faculty. The faculties should meet each separately, twice only in each term for the transaction of business. The faculties should supersede and assume all the powers of the present Houses of Convocation and Congregation. 5161. {Chairman.) Do you mean all the powers of every kind ? — That is what I should wish, but of course that is not a necessary item. 5162. {Prof. Smith.) I presume you mean all the powers with relation to the particular study of the faculty — Yes, with relation to the teaching and the administration of the funds bearing upon their study. The business of each faculty should be to decide by a vote of the majority the following matters: — (1.) The admission of new meipbers to the UNTVERSITV OF OXFORD COMMISSION; — MTNUTRS OF EVIDENCE. 380 faculty, namely, such as miglit be from time to time qualified by college nomination. (2.) The election to all professorships (including those at present elected to by special boards) from time to time vacated or created by the faculty. (3.) The pre- paration at the end of each academic year of a complete programme of the lectures and other courses of instruction to be given by the various members of the faculty in the ensuing academic year, such pro- gramme to be published, and to be subject to revision by the facirlty, the majority having power to reject or modify the lectures proposed by any member of the faculty. This would be the most neces.sary and im- portant function of the faculty. .'51 6.3. Do you mean such programme to be compul- sory upon all members of the faculty? — Yes, in some measure compulsory. There might be exceptions in favour perhaps of the full professors in the faculty who might have somewhat more discretion, but there should be some compulsion. That would be the chief object of such a faculty. (4.) Anotherduty would be the fixing of the fees (which would be larger than are at present charged by university professors) to be charged for each course or for combined courses (curriculum), such fees to be paid by the students to the faculty (directly or through their colleges) and through the faculty to the teacher. (5.) The appointment of examiners in the schools subject to the faculty, and of examiners for university scholarships in subjects related to the faculty. These appointments are now made at Oxford by the vice-chancellor and proctors, who are not in all cases sufficiently acquainted with the requirements of the case. (6.) The arrange- ment of the number and the subjects of examination, with power to abolish any of the jiresent arrangements which may be considered objectionable, such as com- petition for “ classes ’I and to institute any further degrees, such as the degree of doctor in the faculty, open to candidates who have been bachelors for two years ; such doctor’s degree to be awarded in con- sideration of an approved thesis, containing the results of original investigation. I mean that the faculty might come to the conclusion that the competition for classes such as we have now is not desirable, such questions as that I should wish that the faculty might be allowed to settle. (7.) The assignment of laboratories, lecture rooms, and museums. to the use of particular teachers. That appears to be a particularly necessary function of the faculty. (8.) The appro- priation (subject to the approval of the combined faculties or the council of the university) of univer- sity revenue for the purpose of from time to time building lecture rooms and laboratories, purchasing apparatus and other appliances for teaching and re- search. Lastly, the recommendation to the council of the establishment of new professorships, of the pay- ment of salaries for assistants or readers, and of other financial dispositions. Those who may object to many of the particulars in the plan which I have above sketched out will yet see the necessity for some system of compulsory co-operation between the various colleges themselves, and between each and all of these and the university when the working of the present system is carefully examined. Not only is there in various literary and historical subjects a great waste of power in the contemporaneous lecturing on identical subjects of many lecturers in diverse colleges, but in the case of physical science a special difficulty has arisen. In the first place it should be mentioned that neither at Oxford, nor I believe at Cambridge, does there exist any body with power to compel under penalties the professor of a given subject to deliver a complete course of lectures on that subject. Conse- quently on no single branch of physical science is there at Oxford, or I believe at Cambridge, so com- plete a course of lectures extending over a regular period of one or two years as you get at most of the London schools of medicine and in all German universities. 5164-. {Chairman.) Does that in the German uni- versities, or the London schools of medicine, rest upon any compulsory external power, or is it merely the spontaneous development of the system ? — It rests upon the compulsory powers. 5165. Can an individual be deprived of his post? What external authority, for instance, in the London schools of medicine would determine that ? — I can only s[)eak from experience of University College, in Gower Street. I am a professor there, and the pro- fessors are grouped into faculties. I propose at the end of one year the lectures which I intend giving the next year. If they are not considered sufficient in number, it is represented to me by the faculty that there should be more, or that they should be modified. .'5166. When you speak of the completeness of the course, is there any external authority there which criticises your proposed course, and says this or that subject should or should not form part of it ? — The faculty does. That very thing happened to me. I pro- posed to spread my course over two yeans, and to give a portion of it in one year, and a portion of it the next, and it was represented to me by the faculty that it was considered desirable that I should lecture upon the whole subject, and if I had refused I should have been requested to resign my appointment. 5167. {Prof. Smith.) The faculty or senate at University College have, if I remember rightly, no compulsory power over one of their professors ; but they might call, might they not, the attention of the council to any insufficient performance of his duty by a professor ? — Y'es. 5168. {Chairman.) The case which you have stated does not seem so much prescribing the course as re- quiring the whole course to be delivered within a less period of time than that over which you had pro- posed to distribute it ? — Y'es. All that I mean is that in this and other institutions you have some body, or an arrangement by which it is possible to see that the persons Avho arc appointed to give public lectures do give them, and give them in a way which is up to the requirements of the time. .5169. I suppose no man is equally competent to lecture in all branches, even of his own subject, is he, so that naturally there would be a tendency for men to lecture in those parts of the subjects which they best understand.^ — In those institutions to which I am referring, especially in the German universities, the subjects are so broken up, and represented by so many professors, that a man is supposed to be able to lecture on the whole of his subject. 5170. Take a lecturer in modern history, for ex- ample, it would be very difficult for an external power to prescribe to him the parts of history that he should lecture upon, would it not ? He might have to get up the whole thing dc novo in order to meet their requirements, and that within a very short period? — Probably it would be necessary to have more than one professor. If it were desirable to have all of modern history treated in the university at all, it would be necessary to have more than one pro- fessor of modern history. The difficulty of the sub- ject being so large could be met by increasing the number of professors. 5171. {Prof. Smith.) Would you name any German university in which you suppose this compulsory power to exist, and to be exercised ? — In Jena, the one which I know most about. 5172. {Mr. Bernard.) Does it extend there to all the faculties ? — Yes. 5173. I should have supposed, in looking at the programnies of the different German universities, that a great deal of freedom had been left to the various teachers, and that no very authoritative control had been exercised over the formation of the programme, although I am well aware that a programme is issued every semester ? — I believe that, although there may be a great variety in the subjects dealt with by the different professors, they are subject to the approval of the faculty. If a man does not lecture at all, he gets the consent of his faculty not to do so. Every German professor ordinarily gives what he considers a complete representative course on his subject, and U u 2 LONDON. E. R. Lankester, Esq., M.A. 19 Feb. 1878. .310 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — :UTNUTES OF EVIDENCE. LONDON. E. Ji. Lankesier, Esq., M.A. 19 Feb. 1878. lie gives special lectures besides. The income deriv- able from fees is no doubt a chief inducement to the German professor to give an adequatfe course of in- struction adapted to the wants of students, but his faculty has a control over him backed by the very real power of the Minister of State, to whom the faculty can apjieal or rejiort any neglect of duty. 5174. {Prof. Smith.) The only question is as to the nature of the compulsion, rvliether it is as sharp as that which you propose to assign to the faculties which jmu would constitute at Oxford ? — That I think is only a question of degree. I merely suggest that there should be a power. I should not wish it to be of any particular degree of sharpness. It might be as gentle as ]iossible, or as is found desirable, but at present there is no power of that kind at all. 517,5. There is no means even of concert, is there, at jirescnt ? — No ; there is no machinery for it. Sir William Hamilton points out in a passage which I might be allowed to i-ead that this ]>ower formerly belonged to the Hebdomadal Council. He has rather a severe passage on that subject. Of course the practice has vet y much changed during these 50 years in certain matters to which he alludes ; but he says, “ The Hebdomadal meeting had the charge of watcli- “ ing over the due observance of the statutes. By “ statute and under penalty the professors were boiUHl “ to a regular delivery of their courses; hy statute and under jienalty the students were bound to a “ regular attendance in the public classes; and by ‘‘ statute, by oath, but not under ])ena1ty, the heads “ were hound to see that both parties duly performed “ their several obligations. It is evident that the “ heads were here the keystone of the arch. If they “ relaxed in their censorship, the piofessors, finding “ it no longer necessary to lecture regularly, and no “ longer certain of a regular audience, would, ere “ long, desist from lecturing at all ; while the students “ finding attendance in their classes no longer com- “ pulsorv, and no longer sure of a lecture when they “ did attend, would soon cease to frequent the “ ‘schools ’ altogether.” That passage occurs at page ■I38 of the “ Discussions.” With reference to physical science I wish to say further that by taxation of the colleges, and with special funds belonging to the uni- versiiy and administered by the university in the name of the colleges, a large central building has been erected in Oxford containing the various collections of natural history, and a series of laboratories and lecture rooms for the use of the professors of the various branches of physical science. The colleges contributed, in fact “combined,” to establish this “museum,” and one' college deposited ‘therein for the use of its sister colleges a very tine anatomical col- lection. Yet at the present moment there is no arrangement by which the collections of any of the adjoining iec.'ture rooms or laboratories can be used for ihe purpose of giving instruction to his pupils by a college lecturer. It seems to me that an arrange- ment might be possible by which such central institu- tion should be available for use by all the university teachers. A dilferent condition of things might be expected were the administration of' property belong- ing to the combined colleges fairly shared by the colleges and jrrofessoriate, and weie exclusiveness in favour of irresponsible university professors substituted by the recognition of the claims of college lecturers to make use of jmblic lecture rooms, collections, labora- tories, and apparatus, subject to the approval of such bodies as the faculties. 5176. Can you refer to anj' instances in foreign universities where the dilferent inde])endent teachei’s have access, for instance, to the cabinet of physical aj)- paratus, and have control over it ? — Yes, the Privat- (locentcn have that pow'er in most of the German universities. They have the right to use the profes- sors’ lecture rooms in their particular subjects, and very often that causes unpleasantness ; but it is sup- po.sed to be a useful stimulus to the jrrofessor. 5177. The question I asked was not with reference to lecture rooms, but in the first instance with refe- rence to the cabinets or collections of apparatus? — I am not so certain about the apparatus, but I am under the impression that that is so. I believe I luivc luaird that that is the case at Heidelberg. I have heard of the case of a Privat-dneent who was in the habit of using the apparatus. 5178. But that might have been by permission of the professor ?— Yes, it might Ivive been; but the German theory of Prirat-dorent is that he has the right to use the university property for the purposes of teaching ; that is his privilege. 5179. {Chairman.) I suppose that that would alw ays be under the immediate superintendence of the person in charge of the collections? — No, not in a German university. The Privat-docent has no rela- tion to the Professor, and very often is by no means an agreeable person to him. I mean, that he very likely may lecture on the same subject, and may draw away his class. 5180. Supposing, as is the case with a great many collections, that they are under lock and key, would every Privat-docent have a key ?— That I am unable to say. 5181. {Prof. Smith.) To what extent the diffe- rent and independent teachers can be freely allowed to use the same aj)paratus and the same specimens as a matter of right is a question, is it not, which must be difficult to settle ? — Yes, I am unable (estate speci- fically, but I should be inclined to think that those collections were accessible, and I see no special diffi- culty in the matter. .5182. {Chairman.) Surely it would not be a safe thing, for instance, that access should be given to all such teachers to coins and medals without somebody in the room who is responsible for the care ofthem ? — No, that is very true, but that is always the case with a person who goes to a collection rf coins or medals for the purpose of study. 5188. Generally speaking, there is somebody sitting by him whose eye w'ould be upon the things, if there were anything that suggested special caution ? — Yes, but there are very few s])ecimens which are used in teaching, or which are at all necessary in teaching, wdu'ch liave am' value of that kind. .5184. {Prof. Smith.) That would paint to the arrangement of collections of specimens specially in- tended for teaching which might be placed at the disposal of different persons at different times ? — Yes. .5185. {Chairman.) And which could easily be re- placed if they were lost or damaged ? — Yes. I certainly think it would not do to let every valuable collection be open to the access of a large number of people in that way; but a collection which is wanted for teach- ing is not a very valuable one, and it need not be very extensive. I have ventured to make some sugges- tions with regard to the sum which might b(* pro- cured from the colleges tor the purpose of supporting the faculties, if they were constituted. It seems to me that a prineijile of taking money from the colleges might be adojited which involved leaving a certain residuum to carry on the work of the college as at present instituted; that is so far as the maintenance of the building, and the general supervision of the students are concerned, and that, then, from the surplus revenues certain proportions might be taken for university purposes. 5186. Do you first use the word residuum for one purpose, and then surplus for another ? ■ — I should say the residuum on the one hand, and the sur2)lus on the other. 5187. One would have thought that residuum and surplus meant the same thing ? — I do not care about the terms. I would say that I would leave to each college a residuum of 5,000/. a year, which sum is found enough at present in one or two instances (for example in my own college) for the carrying on of a college as Oxford colleges are at present conducted, numbering 150 undergraduates. Then fioni what remains it seems that it should be possible to give sometliing like 50 per cent, of the remainder to the formation of professorships, the holders of UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION —JIINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 341 wliicli prolessorsliips would ho on the governin'^ body ol'tlie oollofjo; 30 por cent, niiglit ho j)aid directly into the university oliest for the general purposes of lahoratories, libraries, lecture rooms, and collections and assistants. The remaining 20 per cent might he left to the administration of the eollege to be used in the lorm of prize fellowships and studentships, and temporary lectureships, or such other purposes of a specified nature, as the eollege might from time to time determine. .■)188. You are of course aware in making these suggestions that by the statute under which we act [)ripiary regard is to he paid to the wants of the several colleges themselves for education and other collegiate purposes, and it is only out of the surplus revenues where that is done that we can make them contribute to university purposes? — Yes, I am aware of that, and this residuum that I have spoken of, a residuum of 5,000/. a year seemed to me to he sufficient. There are very few' colleges that have 150 under- graduates. 5189. 1 infer from what you have said that you eNclude from the application of that sum, which I would prefer calling by some other name than residuum, >\ hat you describe as prize fellowships ? — Yes. 5190. Might not such fellowships he regarded as coming w'ithin the denomination of ‘‘ educational and other collegiate purposes,” because I suppose that those who advocate prize fellowships think they are subser- vient to education P — Yes, I think they might come under that head. 5191. {Prof. Smith.) At Exeter College you stated, did you not, that 5,000/. a year is found sufficient for a college containing 150 undergraduates ? — Roughly speaking. .5192. But is it not true that a very large proportion of the 150 undergraduates are passmen, and re(|uire less teaching than the honour students ? — I should say they are not a very large proportion. I am not able to tell you the' exact number, but I should suppose that not more than half are passmen, and I do not know why they should require less teaching than the honour men, the classmen. I should rather be inclined to think that thej' would require more teaching. 5193. Is the teaching that ))assmen recpiire as ex- pensive to j)i'ovide as that of honour men ? — Yes, I should say so. When I speak of sufficient teaching it does not make much difference whether it is for pass- men or classmen. 5194-. {Chairman.) I suppose that the tutors are paid upon the same scale without reference to the pro- portion of their piq)ils who may be honour men, are thej^ not? — Yes. 5195. {Pi'of. Smith.) Is it not also the case that it is necessary to make the fees and [jayments of the under- graduates at Exeter College rather high in conse(iuence of the smallness of the endowment ? — Yes, I do not tliink that any fees for tuition are high in Oxford as payment goes through the country for such work. 5196. I merely mean that they are high com- paratively ? — Y"es. They are not quite so high as at Balliol College, and there again, of course, the same circumstances are at work. 5197. {Mr. Bernard.) I am not sure that I under- stood how you proposed to deal with the tuition fund, which is one of the great difficulties in this matter. Uo you ]wo[)ose that an undergraduate should, as now, pay a lumj) sum to his college for his whole tuition ; and if so, what would be done wdtb that tuition fund by the college ? — I should propose that the under- graduate paid to the college, and the college to the faculty which the undergraduate entered. 5198. And the lectures of the members of which the undergraduate attended ? — Yes. .5199. Suppose that a college said, we prefer that tlie tuition fees should go to our own members, and we therefore do not desire that our tutors should enter into the faculty at all. An undergraduate attending the tutors of his own college, none of his fee.s, if that were so, would go to the fund under the charge of the faculty? — No ; that I think shoidd be prevented by a legislative enactment. 5200. This is one of the great difficulties, is it not, in the way of such an organisation as you desire for teaching ? — Yes, it is. But I supj)ose it would be possible in some way to prohibit a college from keeping such fees. The university officials might keep a record of the number of undergraduates who entered a college, and demand that they should all be assigned to some one or other faculty, and rerpiire so much to be jraid over by tbe college for each undergraduate. 5201. {Chairman.) Will you proceed with the re- marks which you have to offer to the Commission ? — A distinct subject of which 1 wished to speak was the medical faculty at Oxford. At present, at Oxford, the distinctly medical part of a medical faculty is represented by one gentleman only, wbo liolds two professorshij)s. 5202. There is the Regius Professorship of Medicine. What is the other? — Lord Lichfield’s Clinical Pro- fessorship. No teaching is given by the medical faculty at Oxford, but examinations for tbe admission of members of the university to the degree of IM.B. are held annually. Candidates may present themselves who have studied medicine elsewhere. It is in the opinion of a considerable number of persons, (I am not expressing at all an individual opinion), of the very greatest importance that the medical faculty should be reorganised and placed on a thoroughly efficient footing in both the universities of Cambridge and Oxford. iJo you propose to have a Practical School of Medicine as well as a Scientific or Theoretic School there ? — Yes. That distinction between the scientific and the practical parts of medicine is not a verv real one, because although there really is a distinction between tbe preliminary studies and the ))rofessional studies, the professional studies and their methods are quite as scientific and entitled to the term science, as some of those preliminary studies. C->2(n. {Mr. Bernard.) W’ill you tell us how you would propose to organise your Medical School ? — Yes. I will endeavour to do so. To establish and carry on a leally efficient Medical School in Oxford or Cambridge on a scale at all proportionate to the dignity of the subject, and the wealth of the university, would' involve a much larger expenditure than could be covered by the proper use of endowments at present assigned to medicine. It seems that about 20,000/. a year would be reipiired to maintain the staff which I have enumerated in a list in the paper before me, a part of which would belong to the faculty of physical science and mathematics, whilst 50,000/. would have to be sunk in buildings additional to those already existing for the use of this staff. As a rule, I have assumed that 1,000/. a, year would be the stipend paid to a professor. There seems to Ire some agreement upon that subject in other jilaces. Irinity College, Cambridge, bas pioposed that as a jrroper sum for a university pro- fessor. • ' 520o. lou must not assume that as generally agieed upon at Oxford, because some have proposed that, but others have proposed a less sum? — Yes, I am aware of that. The list would be(l) a professor of medicine, (2t a professor of surgery. (3) a sub-pro- fessor of gyiiaicology or midwifery with a less income. ( 4) a sub-professor of psychiatry, that is, lunacy. (5) a sub-professor of eye-disease, (6) and (7) two addi- tional clinical lecturers who would only require small salaries, (8j a professor of hygiene and forensic medi- cine, (9) a profeseor of pharmacology and the action of drugs with a laboratory and assistance. The laboratory and assistance might be estimated as en- tailing an expense of 500/. a year, quite one half of what the professor’s salary w'ould be ; ( 10 1 a professor of human anatomy with dissecting room, laboratories, and assistance, which again would involve an expen.se of 500/. a year besides the professor’s salary (H) ^ professor of physiology with laboratory and assistance, winch would 111 all probability be much more costly 5206. ( Chairman.) There you come upon a distinct U u 3 LONDON. E. li. Luuheslcr, Esq., M.A. 19 Feb. 1873. TjXIVKRSITr OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. :U2 LONDON, Lanhester Esq., M.A . 19 feb. 1878. ground. We have a professor of physiology belonging to the Natural Science School at Oxford now, have we not ?— Yes, but I am not desirous of bringing this pro- [)osed list into comparison with what exists : I am supposing that matters were entirely re-arranged. At present the professor of physiology is also the pro- fesssor of human anatomy. Then (12)1 would jiropose a professor of histology and embryology with a labora- tory and assistance, (13) a professor of pathological anatomy with a laboratory and assistance. The following would belong to the physical science faculty, but have seats also in the medical faculty. I have not enumerated in this list the professors of mathematics, mathematical physics, astronomy, geology, and mineralogy. They would not, of course, come into the medical faculty. (14) a professor of experimental physics with a laboratory and assistance, (15) a pro- fessor of comp.arative anatomy with a museum, labora- tory, and assistance, (16) a professor of botany with a garden, laboratory, and assistance, (17) a professor of chemistry with a laboratory and assistance, (18) a pro- fessor of physiological chemistry with a laboratory and assistance, (19) an additional assistant professor of chemistry, ( 20) a professor of general biology, namely, the distribution, origin, and forms of species, &c. 5207. Your 20,000/. a year would not cover all that, would it ? — Yes. Some of those are sub-professors or lecturers, and it would cover all that. 5208. When you speak of the professor’s assistance, does the 1,000/. cover the assistance as well as the pro- fessor ? — I have estimated 500/. for laboratories as in part covering assistance. Then there would be also considerable fees that would help to pay for assistance though it would be very important for the professor himself to take the fees, and to be charged by the faculty with a fixed payment to his assistant or assis- tants. The professor iiot the assistant should be stimulated to exertion by the possible variation in the sum derived from fees. In the medical faculty you would be able to charge larger fees than you could in other subjects of professorial education, and you could get a considerable sum paid by the students. 5209. Is that upon a larger scale, or not, than the eslab’ishinent of the University of Edinburgh ? — Yes, that is on a larger scale. I have a list here which I should wish to leave with the Commission, which would explain this. I have made a list of the medical faculties in the various universities in Great Britain (fielivering in the same). 5210. With a comparative view of the scale u on which they are established with respect to expense ? — No, nothirig with regard to expense. This is also a list of the medical faculties in four or five German universities which I have drawn up {delivering in the same). 5211. You are doubtless aware that the attempt to establi.'h a practical school of medicine on so perfect a scale at the universitv has been objected to, on the ground that a town like Oxford is not capable of giving the advantages of practical instruction in medi- cine which may be obtained in greater cities ? — Yes, I have some evidence upon that matter which I think is a complete answer to the objection. I have com- pared the Eadcliffe Infirmary and the number of cases that come into it with that of some of the London hospitals. But first of all I should wish to say that it is not possible to show a priori that medi- cine can be better studied in a dense population than in a somewhat less dense population. 5212. Of course you must have pathologically a much greater variety of observation in a large popu- lation? — Yes ; but you do not require for instructing a student more than a certain amount of variety. Ex- ceptional cases, rare cases are not useful ,for prelimi- nary instruction, that is to say, for courses Or quali- fication ; a. priori that is the case and a posteriori we have to note the facts, first that there are several hospitals in London which are as small as the Rad- cliffe Infirmary and yet possess flourishing medical schools. 5213. {Prof. Smith.) What is the size of the Rad- cliffe Infirmary ? — There are between 150 and 200 beds. As I say there are several hospitals in London which are as small as the Radclitfe Infirmary and yet possess flourishing medical schools, those are University College Hospital and Charing Cross ; Westminster and King’s College are at all events only a very little larger. St. .Mary’s again is very little larger ; and secouvlly, I should say that there are several very complete and highly esteemed medical schools in German university towns in which the towns are far smaller than Oxford, and the infirmaries much smaller than the Eadcliffe Infirmary, for ex- ample, in Bonn you have a flourishing medical school with only 28,000 inhabitants. 5214. Do you know the size of the hospital at Bonn ? — No ; but I have received certain statements on that subject from Professor Billroth of Vienna. 5215. {Mr. Bernard.) It is in the midst of a very ])opuloLis district is it not ? — Yes. In Heidelberg there are only^ 22,000 inhabitants. I went over the hospital of Heidelberg this summer. It certainly is not yet quite complete. At the present time there are not more than 100 beds, but it is on a very excellent plan, and it is arranged very well for clinical purposes. Then you have Gottingen, which hds but 17,000 inhabitants, and it has a flourishing medical school ; and at Jena, where there are not 9,000 inhabitants, there is also a flourishing medical school. 5216. {Chairman.) With regard to those univer- sities which you have mentioned, which are smaller than Oxford, have the students the same option which they would have in England, of going to medical schools established under more favourable ’ circum- stances within a convenient distance elsewhere : — for example, in England I suppose a medical student would naturally be attracted to Edinburgh or to London, more than to Oxford, would he not ? — I do not think he would if there were proper medical teaching at Oxford. I think Oxford has an enormous attraction for all students with its general associations, and that they would prefer to come to Oxford il they could. The Germans students have the opportunity of going to larger towns if they please. 5217. Uo not you think it is on some principle of natural selection that things have got into the groove that they have ? The universities of Oxford and Cambridge have the power of giving degrees in medicine, and if medicine could have been taught so advantageously there as in London and in Edinburgh, do not you think it probable that it would have been so taught ? — -No ; I am of opinion that medical study has ceased in Oxford, because the chief power in the university has been in the hands of another profession, namely, the clerical profession, which has not favoured the progress of any studies which do not lend them- selves to a clerical career. Medical studies clearly have no bearing upon the clerical profession. 5218. Would you say the same of Cambridge ? — Yes, but it never operated quite to the same extent. There is at the present moment instruction in medicine at Cambridge, and there are at present something like 50 students attending Addenbrooke’s Hospital at Cambridge. 5219. With regard to those German universities, are the cases parallel so far as relates tq their proximity to such schools as those in London ? — Yes, I think so. For instance, Berlin is not far from Halle. 5220. I suppose the population of Berlin itselfl in comparison with that of London is small, is it not ? — But w'hat I wish to point out is, that there is no advantage in a large population. The school is small in London, although the population is large. A man who enters University College to study medicine only has a hospital of 150 beds. 5221. Does he never go to any other school than that ? — No. 5222. {Prof. Smith.) Is it not the case that the hospital at University College is worked entirely for the sake of the school, in a way in which you could not possibly work a county hospital like the Eadcliffe Infirmary ? — To some extent, but you could work a aNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 343 county hospitnl like the Kndcliffe to some extent for the beneiitoi theschool, ifyou Imd eflicient clinical teaching there and the persnns connected with the hospital desire to have cases brought up; for instance, if there were a good surgeon connected with the hos- pital who had a university position, cases would come Ifom all the county routul to the hospital to be operated upon. 5223. You are aware, I presume, that the university has no control over the Radcliffe Infirmary ?— Yes, but I think it should be pointed out that the Radcliffe Infirmary was founded clearly with the object that it should be the Clinical School of Oxford, and there would be hardly any difficulty in arranging the matter. If it w'ere necessary for the purpo.«es of the university, the action of Parliament would be quite justified, I suppose, in placing the control of the Infirmary in the hands of the university. 5224. {Chairman.) It might be assumed that as far as the Radcliffe trustees were concerned, there would be no difficulty-on their part in co-operating with the university ? — I imagine none. 5225. {Prof. Smith.) Is there any medical school in London of great eminence, except only University College, which has a hospital containing so few as 150 or 200 beds ? — King’s College Hospital has only 220, 1 think, and there have been very eminent surgeons there, such as Fergusson, and now they have Lister, who has recently come from Edinburgh. 5226. {Chairma7i.) Is it certain that the number of beds is a safe criterion to go by ; perhaps in London the number of patients filling those beds from time to time in the year may be much greater than in Oxford? — Yes, they are somewhat more numerous, but that is partly on account of the fact that they are used as clinical schools. It would be quite possible (and I have the opinion of two medical men on that matter which I should like to read,) to increase the frequency of attendance at the Radcliffe Infirmary if it were an object to do so. 5227. ( 31r. Bernard.) Do you mean to increase the number of patients taken in P — To increase the number of valuable cases, not to have so many chronic cases. I wrote in December to Professor Billroth, of Vienna, who is Professor of Surgery in the University of Vienna, and has written a book upon the medical faculties of Europe. He has given a great deal of attention to what a medical faculty should be, and what should be the professors, and what they should be paid, and what kind of hospital is necessary. He being in a very large city, 1 thought that his opinion on the matter would be impartial, as he would not be prejudiced in favour of small schools, and I received this letter from him in reply; — He says, “ My dear sir, “ honoured as I feel by your inquiries as to my views “ concerning the advisability of extending the medical “ faculty of Oxford, and much as I have occupied “ myself with the study of such matters, I scarcely “ like to venture a definite statement of opinion “ in this particular case. The development of our “ German universities, their relation to the com- “ munity and to practical life, is different from that “ obtaining in England, in so far as that the dominat- “ ing principle here is to combine in the universities “ academic with practical instruction. For my own “ part, I belong to those who cannot allow that there “ is really any scientific distinction, or in fact any “ distinction of value, to be drawn between the study “ of natural phenomena and their laws on the one “ hand, and of the diseased human body on the “ other. There is in my eyes but one method of “ investigating nature and her laws, and this finds its “ application equally in the analysis of a mineral, in “ the study of a plant, in the investigation of the “ healthy and the diseased conditions of the animal “ or of the human body. To teach this method at the “ sick bed is the business of the clinical teachers ; “ the ‘healing art’ is only the outcome, the final con- e elusion of our observation. For this study there is t‘ no need that the number of patients should be very “ large. The largest number of beds which can in “ any way be rendered serviceable for instruction “ when two hours are devoted daily to clinical in- “ struction, is 100 beds for the internal (medical), and “ the same number for the external (surgical) clinic, “ and 30 for the diseases of the eye, to which number “ we may add the out-patients, whose contribution to “ the ]Hirposes of instruction I hold to he very impor- “ tant. It is jicssible, indeed, with clinics of only “ 50 beds in each branch, to carry on very valuable ‘‘ instruction. The majority of the German univer- “ sities possess clinics of only 40 to 60 beds.” 5228. {Mr. Bernard.) I presume that means 40 to 60 beds in each ? — Yes. “ There are diseases which “ can only be studied with rapidity in large cities; to “ these belong the social diseases, such as syphilis, “ certain skin diseases, epidemics, also rare diseases “ which have to be treated by sjiecial methods, such “ as diseases of the larynx and of the ear, certain “ nervous diseases which are treated by electricity, “ &c. On this account, with us, most young doctors, “ after the completion of their curriculum and “ examination, proceed to Berlin, or Vienna, or “ Paris, or London. Two years ago I wrote a book, “ ‘ Ueher das Lehren imd Lerneu der Medicinischen “ ‘ Wissenschqf'ten,' published at Vienna by Gerold. “ You will find therein a full statement of my views “ on the points which interest you. I have the “ honour to subscribe myself, with sincere respect, “ yours faithfully, Theodore Billroth.” Then as to the actual state of the case of the Radcliffe Infirmary, and the cases passing through it. I submitted the reports of the Radcliffe Infirmary to a well known medical gentleman in London, Mr. Ernest Hart, the editor of the “British Medical Journal,” and I have a letter from him in reply, concerning the value of the clinical material existing there. 5229. {Prof. Smith.) Is he himself acquainted with the Radcliffe Infirmary ? — Yes, he has been to the Radcliffe Infirmary, but not recently. Mr. Hart says, “ I am much obliged to you for lending me the re- “ ports of the Radcliffe Infirmary for 1875 and 1876. “ In looking through the classification of diseases I “ see an excellent list of general cases for clinical “ instruction ; the medical cases are remarkably good “ as a clinical field including, I see, in one year 35 “ cases of enteric fever ; a good supply of diseases of “ the nervous system and digestive system ; with a “ department of skin cases and aural cases obviously capable of considerable development. The surgical “ in-patients also afford a large field of instruction. “ The surgical service does not include any large “ number of accidents, but a very good and instruc- “ tive series of general surgical cases, and there can- “ not be the least doubt that such a field as this “ would afford an excellent basis of clinical instruc- “ tion. Of course, if the hospital became a clinical “ school, and if, as would certainly be the case before “ long, satisfactory arrangements were made at Ox- “ ford, and high-class clinical and operative teaching “ were instituted, a more important series of cases “ would be attracted to the hospital. In the London “ hospitals, as well as in all the German hospitals “ for example, irrespective of accidents, the character “ of the cases admitted is very largely determined by “ the brilliancy of their reputation. University Col- “ lege and King’s College Hospitals, when officered “ by Liston or Fergusson, had probably a larger num- “ her of important operations than any of the great “ hospitals, although the number of surgical beds in “ each did not exceed 50. Stokes and Graves each “ taught from 30 beds, 1 am told, at the Meath Hos- “ pital.” (Stokes was llegius Professor of Medicine in Trinity College, Dublin, and is just deceased.) “ Skoda “ wrote his great book from 25 beds. Collis ot Dud- “ lin never had more than from 30 to 40 beds, and “ Volkman at Halle, has revolutionised the surgical “ practice of Germany in a small hospital situated in “ a town, a third of the size of Oxford.” Mr. Hart says, “ A third of the size of Oxford,” but that is a slip. Halle is bigger than Oxford, having 60,000 inhabitants. The Sir James Simpson of the continent is Baron LJ u 4 LONDON, jE. R. Lanhestcr, Rsq., M A. 19 Feb. 1878. UXIVKKSTXY OF' OXKOlll) OOMMTSSION : — MTNItTI'N OF EVIOFNCE. :M4 LONDON. E. R. Lanhester, Esq., M.A. 19 Fel). 1878. “ Scanzoni, whose clinical teaching has been seated “ at the little town of Wurzburg.” I have another letter on the same subject from a medical graduate of Oxfortl, who writes from a personal acquaint- ance of some years with the Eadclift’e Infirmary, in which he says, “ In answer to your question what “ value may be attached to the cases annually pass- “ ing through the Hadclifi'e Infirmary as the mute- “ rial basis for clinical teaching, I send you here- “ with the Infirmary reports for IHTI-.a-h. You ‘‘ will see hv them ; — • The weekly average of “ in-jratients for those three years was 113. Sur- ‘‘ gical cases are always in excess at this hospital, so “ that of the above number some 60 would, as a rule, “ he surgical, and 50 medical cases. The total num- “ her of beds (over 150) is greater than at Adden- “ brooke’s, Cambiidge, ^vhich has a regular Medical “ School. So much for mere numbers. Now, as to the “ value of the cases for clinical use, (1) the general “ surgical practice is very good; I would say quite “ sufficient for clinical teaching. A glance at the ‘‘ lists of accidents, capital operations, &c., will show “ this. On the other hand, there is no provision for “ the stnd\ of special departments, such as diseases of “ the eye, car, &c., or midwifei^', or primary venereal “ disease (this is by rule excluded from the wards). “ (2.) Of the medical cases, although the majority are “ of a chronic or very mild sort, there is still in the “ course of each year a very fair sprinkling of acute “ cases. vSee, for instance, the numbers of diseases of “ the ‘zymotic’ class and acute febrile diseases, such “ as acute rheumatism, pneumonia, pleurisy, and “ various other cases which though not acute are “ none the less indispensable for clinical instruction. “ (3.) 4'here are some 55 to 50 deaths per year. “ Post-Jxortvm examinations are made in nearly all “ cases of interest. There is, however, no regular “ pathological demonstrator. (1-.) Besides the in- “ patient, there is an out-patient department, in which “ ovei’ 1,000 cases are treated annually'. These are “ mostly chronii' or slight cases, much of the same “ tlescription and of the same clinical value as are the “ out-patients at any I^ondon hospital. These facts “ seem to me to prove beyond (juestion that there “ exists at the Hadclifi'e Infirmary a good deal of “ the requisite material for clinical teaching. And as “ beginners want rather a few typical cases of the “ several forms of disease than a wide field of ohserva- “ tion, I am of opinion that the present material “ which the infirmary affords, if all rendered available “ and turned to the best account, might furnish a “ sufficient groundwork of clinical instruction for “ students. At the same time I think that the student “ who takes to medicine as his future profession, “ could not, under jtresent arrangements, complete his “ medical education at Oxford. He would still have “ to spend a further year, at least, at some large “ hositital in London or some foreign caitital for the “ sake of a wider sphere of observation and for the ‘‘ masterv of s])ecial subjects such as those I above “ mentioned. It must be remembered also that under “ present arrangements the teaching of clinical medi- “ cine at the infirmary, even if attempted, is at a “ great disadvantage. It is wholly in the hands of “ one of the physicians (the Clinical Professor), and “ as he has only a third share of the medical cases and “ no command whatever over those of his two col- “ leagues, two thirds of the available clinical material “ is not at his disposal. Whether this arrangement “ could or ought to be altered, and whether the other “ shortcomings of the infirmary as a place of medical “ education could or ought to be remedied, are ques- “ tions on which I do not offer an opinion. I simply “ state as fairly as I can at very short notice and “ under pressure of other work, what seem to me “ the present capabilities of the place.” 5230. Could you give any confirmatory evidence ot the statement which is made there that post-morlem examinations are held usually in all interesting cases at the Hadclifi’e Infirmary 't — I know nothing as to the number of cases in which posl-)nor terns are held. This writer speaks with perfect assurance, and he has of course the means of knowing. 5231. {Mr. Bernard.) Should you not anticipate some difficulty in that matter, in procuring cases for di.sseetion at Oxford? — No, there would be'no difficulty in getting bodies for studying normal anatomy. There might be some difficulty about the post-mortem ex- amination of persons dying in the hospital. There always is a risk of difficulty in the London hosjritals in that matter. In all cases of jrersons who have died in !i hospital, you have to obtain the consent of their friends, previous to a post-mortem examination, and that can always b(> made a condition of the admission ol' certain cases. 5232. Uo you think, however, that for the ordinary ])ractice ot a professor of human anatomy, which in- volves a good deal of dissection, no difficulty would be found at Oxford ? — No, I believe that is pretty certain. Subjects would be brought from Birmingham or London when necessary. 5233. {Chairman.) How are they obtained except by executions ? — Unclaimed bodies in workhouses and i.a prisons, and unclaimed bodies in the large hospitals, if the physicians do not wish to \\v,\kG post-mortem examination?. 5234. Is that jtermitted by law ? — Yes, they are chiefly paupers and prisoners. 5235. The bodies of paupers, I suppose, are not {>er- mitted to be dissected unless their friends are willing, are they? — I think if their friends objected who had any claim at all they would not. They are generally the bodies of unclaimed persons and of those whose friends do not object.* I am not sure, but I believe the rule is that the frieiuls woidd fiave to take the body and bury it at their own expense if they wishcil lo ))reserve it from this use. 5236. At all events the supply is sufficient, you think ? — Yes. 5237. {J*rof. Smith.) You would admit that there might be some additional difficulty in a place like Oxford, hut you think that it coidd In' overcome ? — 1 believe that thcrcwould be lessdifficulty than iiiLondofi, where there area number ol’medical schools competing for the bodies which exist. You would draw upon Birmingham. There is a, small Medical School in Birmingham, but the siqtifiy must be very much larger thiin they can possibly use. I here is one aspect of this question which 1 should wish to say something about. It seems to me that it is owing to the fact that no serious professional training in any subject is undertaken by the universities, that a large number of students of the less wealthy classes do not attend them. At the present time those who intend to become clergy of the English Church or schoolmasters, are the only students whom the university sends out ready to cntei' upon a professional career. 5238. How long in your opinion should the course of a medical student last? — Including the prelim’inary and prolessional studies after he leaves school, I should say, from five to si.x years. I mean for a meibcal student who is to be a university graduate or a physician. 5'?39. Do you think it for his interest to keep him the whole of that time in the University of Oxi'oid? — Yes, not as things are arranged now, but things might be altered, and then I think it would. 5240. If things were arranged as well as possible you would think it better to keep him five or six years in Oxford than to keep him three in Oxford, and send him for two or three years to London? — \es, I think so. 5241. Is that the advice which you would give to a young man of ability and energy, if there was a well arranged medical school at Oxford with all the pro- fessors that you would wish ? — Certainly, if it were arranged as I should wish. At the present time medical teaching is really suffering in thccountr v from want of university superintendence. That is a very Sjiecial point; it is not only in the interest of ihe university that I advocate the resuscitation <,f the medical iacully, but in tbe interest of medical teaching 345 UNIVEKSITY OF OXFOlil) COMMISSION ; — MIxVL’TKS OF E\ IL>KNCK. In Englmid there is no university whieh teaclies medi- eiiie. Cambridge does it in a way, wliicli is admitted to he (]iiite unsatisfactory. Oxford does not do it all, anti Durham does not do it at all, and l!ie University of I/ondon is not a teaching liody. In the London Schools of Medicine the teaching (and this is a very serious matter connected with the (jiiestion in hand), is left very often in the hands of j)ersons who merely undertake teaching in order to get a hospital appoint- ment and in order to get access to a certain number of beds, and to have the opportunity of clinical obser- vation, and when they undertake to teach subjects connected with medicine, they teach them to a very' large extent inefficiently. There is a great need in England of the influence of a university upon the whole study of medicine. 5242. Do you think that the salaries which you })i'opose to offer, and whicli are very high for profes- sorships, salaries, namely, of 1,000/. a year woidd attract to a place like Oxford, eminent teachers of medicine and surgery ? — I think it exceedingly probable that they would, because I do not think that it is necessary, or that it is likely, that the man who excels in practice, that is to say, in dealing with private patients, and obtains a reputation for ability as a practitioner, is the same man who makes a good teacher of clinical medicine. The very qualities which may make him a good teacher may make kim offensive to his patients. 5243. {Mr. Bernard.') Should you say that that is the general rule ? — I think it is not just to argue on the opposite supposition that necessarily an eminent practitioner is a good clinical teacher, 5244. {Prof. Smith.) You would hardly apply that observation to surgery, I presume That would be more difficult ; there is a more open test of a man’s ability as a surgeon. .5245. ( Chairman.) Are there any instances on the other side, of men of small practice who are really eminent as teachers either in London or in the Scotch universities.!^ — There are instances. The late Dr. llugl les Bennett of Edinburgh was one. At the present moment I cannot give an English instance, but M. Charcot in Paris refuses to have a large practice, and devotes himself entirely to his clinical teaching, and he is one of the greatest clinical teachers in Europe at the present time. 5246. That case, as you state it, seems to imply that he could have a large practice if he wished ? — Yes, and that is sufficient for the purpose, I think. It is a question whether a man would prefer to take 1,000/. a year in Oxford ; I mean a man who came to study medicine and teach it. 5247. Such men are rare, are they not, who would prefer devoting themselves to scientific subjects, instead of advancing themselves in life ?— Yes, I think they are rare ; but if you admit that objection, it strikes at universities altogether. It is rare to get men who would accept such teaching posts in any subject, if they felt themselves capable of getting on in public life. 5248. That does not apply quite so generally, because you see that the medical profession and the law are lucrative professions, and the question is really whether you can advantageously give instruction in the practical branches of knowledge necessary for those ju'ofessions except by persons who have attained, or are seeking to attain, eminence In them ? — I believe that a man might be very eminent as a teacher and student of medicine, and he might fail to get a practice — at any rate he would be very willing not to enter into practice, but to continue as a student and teacher. It is only on the theory that such men exist who would be very willing to prefer 1,000/. a year and to live as a student and teacher that one could justify the existence of a professoriate at all in any subject, as it seems to me. 5249. Y"ou might give 1,000/. a year and not find that you harl got the right man, might you not ? — Yes, 3'ou must be \ ery careful bow ^ou make your choice. Q 6223. 5250. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you know what lato of payment a lecturer in London in a medical school has ; it is something veiy different, I suj>pose, from what it must be in O.xford ? — The remuneration in a medical school is very small. The man finds his reward there — in fact it may he said that he gets his pay — by suc- ceeding to a hospital appointment, that is to say, by having a certain number of beds j)laced under his care in a hosj)ital, which enables him to write about tbe cases winch he studies, and so obtain some repu- tation with a view to practice, and also to make the acquaintance of a number of pupils who become general practitioners and send their patients to him for consultation. This is the regular method by which a practice is made. 5251. Why, therefore, should you establish one medical school at Oxford at, an infinitely greater cost than a medical school could be maintained at in a large town like London ? — It would have a different char- acter altogether. The persons who were professors of medical subjects in Oxford would be academic instead of being merely professional. Their whole view of medicine would be not that of a Medical Cor- poration but of a University. 5252. ( Chtdrnum.) Do not you think that there would he a great practical tendency on the part of students whose object is to practise medicine fb prefer tbe other class of teachers ? — I do not think so, be- cause they would get so much more thorough teach- ing at Oxford where persons were able to give a large amount of time to it, and were paid to aive their time to teaching. To a very large extent the teach- ing in the London hospitals is not wbat it should be on account of the small pecuniary resources of the schools, which are never paid for out of hospital endowments. Complaints are not uncommon that hosj)ilal physicians with a growing edientele neglect to discharge their duties as clinical teachers. 5253. {Prof. Smith.) Do you think that the teach- ing in the University of Edinburgh is better than the teaching In the best I.ondon medical schools ? — It is very difficult for me to give an o})inion ahout that. Certainly the teachers in Edinburgh have from time to time had a very much higher reputation as teachers than those in London. Two of the professors in Edinburgh, or rather one a professor and the olher a medical man who has had a teaching position there, have come to London only this year. Dr. INIatthews Duncan and Professor Lister. 5254. {Chairman.) Have you anything further to suggest to the Commission ? — I think that is all that I should desire to say. The witness withdrew. “ Savile Club, 15, Savile Eow, W., “ My Loud, February 2 1st. “ Thicue are certain points on which I did not remember to speak when giving evidence before tbe Commission over wbich your Lordship presides, and on which I would beg to be allowed to offer the following remarks : — “ 1st. It seems to be of very great inqmrtance — especially if professional studies are to be conducted at the university — that there should be a thorough matriculation examination, of high standard and wide range. “ This ought not to be left in the hands of the colleges, but should be conducted by the university, acting in the name of and under the direction of the faculties. This examination would have an immense effect on the public schools, and would e.xchide the most worthless of our present class of students. “ 2nd. I spoke of 1,000/. a year as a proper sum for the professorial stipend. Your Lordship seemed to think there might be a majority of opinion that this sum is too large. I should wish to say that, unless a professor is paid for his whole time, it is almost a waste of money to pay him at all. It he has reason to ihink himself badly paid, he will not try to do his work well. It is ‘ paying very badly ’ to give a pro- fessor in Oxford only 500/. a year. T'he post leads to nothing in the future, and in order to obtain//rx/-r«/c X X LONDON K. li. Lanhester. Esq., M.A. 19 Feb. 1878. 34(i IJNIVERSITV OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EAMDENCE. LONDON. E. R. Lanheslcr, Esq., M.A. 19 Feb. 1878. nit'll, one must oiler a sulileieiit prize. 11' the salaries oftlie higher posts in tlie church and the law are com- pai ed with the amount proposed for a professor, it will not appear very large. It would be better to have no [irofessorships at all than to eipend money in small stipends, so small as to jastifi/ t\\e\x holders in converting their offices (as is so largely done at present) into sinecures. “ 3rd. The (luestion of medical education at Oxford is part of the general question of professional educa- tion altogether. I venture to submit that the proper direction of professional education is the chief if not the only function of an university. “ 1 should wish also to point out that the money held by the colleges, was chiefly intended to promote /trofessional study in Oxford. That is clear from this fact, viz., that the money was designed to support fellows, who were required to take a degree in one of the higher faculties, viz., in theology, law, and medicine. Further, such fellowships were given to their holders after the B.A. course was finished (a course corresponding to the public school course of the present day), and it was customary for such persons to then enter (as prescribed by our university ■statutes) as student of civil law, or student of medicine, or of theology. The status of student in these subjects is still recognised by the university. Such ‘student’ being distinguished from the ‘ under- graduate.’ It was to support ‘ students,’ that is students in the higher faculties, that most college fellowships were founded. “■fth. 1 was asked by your Lordship to cite instances of eminent teachers of clinical medicine who were not also successful practitioners. The case of the late Dr. Hughes Bennett of Edinburgh has occurred to me. He was the most celebrated teacher of his time in Great Britain — perhaps in Europe — yet never had more than a very small practice. His income was derived chiefly from fees paid by his pupils. “I may also mention that it is notorious at the present time that the large practitioners cause gr('at inconvenience to the London hospitals with which they are connected by the irregularity of their attendance. Also the eminent practitioner who holds a hospital appointment, honestly refuses in many cases to attend in the morning or at regular hours. “Also, it is a general opinion among the rising members of the medical profession that many of the best clinical teachers in the metropolis are men with very small practice, or next to none. It would he invidious to cite names. “ I am, &c. “ E. Ray Lankestek.” J. F. Payne, Esq., JJ.A., R M. d. F. Payne, Esq., B.A., B.M., (Fellow of Magdalen College; Assistant Physician to St. Thomas’s Hospital, London; Examiner in the Medical Faculty of the University of Edinburgh; late Radclitfe Travelling Fellow), examined. 5255. {Chairman,') Perhaps you will be so good as to make the observations which you wish to offer to the Commission in the order in which you have set them down. I observe that your first point relates to the amount of influence exercised by the university of Oxford upon the medical profession? — That, I think, is a very important point. Having had occasion lately to fmd out how many graduates of Oxford are prac- tising the medical profession, I was not able to find more medical graduates than about 60, or rather more, out of several thousands in the whole profession all over the country. 5256. As showing the total number of Oxford graduates in medicine? — I think so, roughy speaking; it is impossible to find it out with absolute precision. 5257. {Crof Smith.) T^ou do not mean the -wl’-cle number practising, but the whole number of gra- duates ? — The whole number of graduates of medicine piactising; there maybe some possibly not practising, but those it is inqjossible to find out. 5258. {Chairman.) Is there no roll at Oxford of the graduates in each faculty ? — I am not prepared to say, but I think it is only of those who keep their names on the books. 5259. Then in fact you consider that the influence is very small ? — Very small indeed. 5260. Do you think it desirable that the relations between the university and the profession should be closer ? — It seems to me exceedingly desirable. 5261. For what reasons ? — First, as regards the jn-ofession, it seems to me highly desirable that the general culture of the medical profession all over the country should if possible be raised, and that it would be raised by the introduction into its ranks of a larger number of persons having what is called an Oxford education ; and in the next place it is desirable for the sake of the profession, because there are certain special wants of the profession, wants which are often lamented at the present day, and a desire to supply w Inch is very frequently expressed, which might be better met by the university than by any other organi- sation so far as I know. Those particular wants of the medical profession at this moment are generally recog- nised to be in the first place the more complete and more conqn'ehensive teaching of all the sciences which belong, to medicine as distinct from the practice of medicine itself, such as anatomy, physiology, jiathology, and others. It is exceedingly difficult to have those sciences pro})erly taught in the medical schools in London, and the reason for that is that the medical schools of London, with few exceptions, have no endow- ments. Their expenses are paid for entirely by the fees of the students themselves, and hence there is an inevit- able tendency in many branches for the education to be kept down to that point which can be paid for, and which is paid for in immediate professional success, and not to be carried on with a view to general scientific culture. I think tliat the university, as would be generally admitted, could teach all those subjects far better than they are generally taught in ’ the existing medical schools, for instance, of London. Then there is another want which is very frequently conq:)lained of in the medical profession, and that is the want of endowment for the purposes of i)romoting medical science ; — the want of the power of putting persons in a position to prosecute researches in aid of the science of medicine. So much is that felt that, for instance, the British Medical As.sociation, which is entirely a voluntary association, has set aside funds out of its own revenue for the purpose of promoting research. And again, the university of London having a certain property left it for that purpose, or for an allied purpose, has founded an institution for the study of disease called the “ Brown Institution.” 5262. That is for the diseases of animals, is it not ? — A"es, it is for the diseases of animals, but it has been founded in the belief, at least it is generally underslood so, that the study of the diseases of animals is of ad- vantage for the study of the diseases of man. 5263. {]\Ir. Bernard.) Was not the endowment specifically left for that purpose ? — It was left, I understand, for the treatment and the study of the diseases of animals. 5264. {Sir 31, IV. Ridley.) Of domestic animals or animals useful to man? — Tes. But the particular point which I wished to refer to was that the univer- sity of London carried out its bequest in such a way as that besides the sjiecific objects aimed at in that legacy it should also serve the general cause of medical science, and it has been ah eady fruitful in that respect. These points are often urged as highly important for the medical profession, and furthermore, I find that at the present moment there is a very general desire amongst medical practitioners all over the countiy, to obtain the title of doctor of medicine, thinking 1 sup- pose that it carries rvith it greater weight, and is generally taken by the public as an evidence of higher education. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OP EVIDENCE. 3i7 5265. {Chair man.') Those are reasons which chiefly concern the profession, are they not? — Yes, those chiefly concern the profession. 5266. Perhaps, before you go to the other reasons which relate to the university, I may ask you this question. The university at present has, as I under- stand it, a school, and an increasing school, in the prc[)aratory sciences, such as physiology and com- parative anatomy, and also in biology, in physics, and in chemistry. What is the obstacle to those who wish to be medical students being instructed in the Natural Science School in Oxford in those branches of knowledge ? — The reasons are these, that so very small a number still, notwithstanding the slow increase which has taken place, are able to avail themselves of this instruction, because of the necessary prolongation of the period of preliminary education. This makes their entrance into the profession much later, and therefore on that ground alone, independently of other grounds, much more expensive. 5267. The same reasons would apply, I presume, to the legal profession also ; the cases seem rather parallel, as in each case there is a large branch of general, or, if one may so call it, scientific knowledge, which might be well obtained in the university ; but there is a necessary practical pre])aration afterwards, and a great many people cannot afford the time for both. Do you think that any system could be introduced which would entirely overcome that difficulty? — I think it could, for two reasons ; in the first place, by proper arrangements, what is called practical training in medicine, and what is called training in preliminary science can be and often are carried on simultaneously and with great advantage. In that way, instead of having two distinct periods, one of preliminary educa- tion followed by one of professional education, you can make the two periods overlap, and so a great saving of time is effected. And there is an additional reason for thinking that that is desirable, if possible ; namely, that there is a very widely spread opinion, I do not say whether it is absolutely correct or not, but it is at all events very generally held, that within certain limits, the earlier a man begins to learn practical medicine, and especially the practice of surgery, the more likely he is to be a good practitioner, 1 mean within certain limits ; that is, he is more likely to be a good prac- titioner if he begins to have to do with sick people, say, at the age of 19, than if he defers that study until the age of, say, 22. That opinion is very widely and very generally held, and it is supported by the expe- rience of other countries in Europe. In every other country in Europe, so far as I have been able to find out, medical education does begin at the age of about 18 or 19, or at all events under 20. 5268. Is it certain that it would be so much for the advantage of the sick people as of the students ? — That I do not say, but I mean that it is thought that a man at the earlier age is more apt to acquire the par- ticular kind of dexterity needed in treating disease than he is if he defers it until his faculties have become more mature, but at the same time, perhaps, less flexible. 5269. Will you now pass to your next reason, which relates to the interest of the university in the matter ? — I would say, generally, that it seems to me desirable, if it can be done, that the interests of the university should be bound up with the interests of the great practical professions, and that the univei’sity should in that way have, so to speak, a larger stake in the country. Whatever plans or prospects of change there might be, it would be felt that the university had a still greater claim than it has now on the public support. Then, perhaps, I may be permitted to say, although it involves a consideration of a delicate nature, I think that the university might possibly be the gainer by having amongst its governing body a certain number of persons connected with practical life and professional interests ; but that, of course, is a point on which I should only offer the most general kind of suggestion. Then I think, too, that it would be a good thing for the undergraduates. Those who are engaged in learning the profession by which they have to live, I think are almost always more earnest and have a stronger sense of the necessity and importance of what they have to do, than if they are engaged merely in general cultivation ; they have that good quality, whatever else they may have, and there- fore I think the presence of professional students would infuse a greater sense of the reality of life, so to speak, into the undergraduates generally. 5270. Do you suppose that in most cases the future profession of an undergraduate is virtually determined when he goes to the university ?— -No, I should think not in all cases ; probably in many it is not decided ; but what I mean to say is, that if there were medical teaching there, that would be the case to a greater extent than now. 5271. I presume that, as a conclusion from those views which you have explained, you think it would be good for the country generally if the connexion were more close and intimate ? — It would be good for the country generally in that way, and also in this way, that it is the interest of the country more dis- tinctly than the interest of the profession to have thoroughly educated and highly cultivated profes- sional men. It is the interest of the country, clearly ; whereas, it is not directly the interest of the pro- fession, since a professional man does not neces- sarily earn his living more easily because he is well- educated in general subjects. It is even conceivable that a less highly educated man might be more suc- cessful. I mean that general culture, though it is desirable for the country in its professional men, does not pay sufficiently to be acquired in all cases by professional men in their owm interest. 5272. Is the medical profession recruited from all classes in as large a proportion as the other profes- sions ? — A considerable proportion of the medical students, I think, are always the sons of medical practitioners of some kind. 5273. Probably in a greater degree than would be true as to the other professions ? — I imagine so. 5274. When the usefulness and practical impor- tance of the profession, and its estimation in the coun- try, are considered, that seems a singular thing, can you suggest any reason for it? — I believe it has generally been the case in all countries ; and one reason I imagine is, that a great deal is learned by the son of a medical practitioner in an informal way from his father independently of his formal educa- tion. Another reason perhaps is that the father very often has an opportunity of introducing him favour- ably into life. 5275. Then I suppose you think that for those reasons, which seem to be of a permanent nature, whatever changes you might introduce into the university, the same fact would be likely to continue ? — I suppose so, to a very considerable extent. 5276. Would that have any influence upon the probable success of any means of connecting the university more closely with the profession. I mean would parents be likely, on the whole, to be led under such a system as you would advise to prefer sending their sons to the university rather than training them as at present ? — I fully believe, from personal experi- ence, that they would desire it if it were not for the. two drawbacks which I have already mentioned, namely, the long period of education and consequent additional expense, and the belief that in a practical subject practical education ought not to be delayed so long. But for those reasons I am sure that a lai'ge number of medical practitioners throughout the country would think it a great advantage and a very desirable thing for their sons to go to Oxford. 5277. {Mr. Bernard.) Do you think that the study of the preparatory subjects could go on along witb the study of the practical svdtjects? — To a certain extent only. 5278. Do not you think that a man who felt it his interest and the right thing for him to do to begin as early as possible bis practical study' wmdd be un- willing to give any substantial part of his time to X X 2 LONDON. J . F. Payne, Fsq., B.A., B.M. 19 Feb. 1&78. 348 UNIVERSITY OF 0XF01U> COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LONDON. J. F. Payne, Esq., B.A., B.M. 19 Feb. 1878. the study of those more iheoretical branches of knowledge? — 1 think that is a question of limit. I should hardly go so far as to say that anyone thinks that the practical study sliould he commenced as early as ])ossihle, but only that there is a period at which it is desirable that it should commence. 3279. Up to a certain point, I suppose, you would require general education to go ? — Undoubtedly. 5‘iSO. So that a certain point mast be reached before a man begins to study practically at all ? — Yes. 5281. { Chairwan.) Can you tell us whether any large proportion of medical students have passed through the public schools of the country ? — I am not able to say. 5282. Have you any impression \ipon tlic subject? — I have an impression that a small number have been to the large ]nib!ic schools, but the greater pro- portion have been educated either in the smaller grammar schools or else in some kind of what arc called secondary schools. 5283. (d//’. Bernard.) At what age does a man usually enter a medical school ? — Usually from 16 to 18 or 19. Of late years the tendency has been that the age of admission should be raised, and that a medical student does not generally come up now before 18 or 17 at ihe earliest. 5284. Is he at once j)lunged into })iactical study ? — In his first year he studies chiefly anatomy, physio- logy, chemistry, and botany. 5285. But you think not so thoroughly as he ought to do ? — No ; clearly L think it might be greatly improved. 5286. You think that if he were at Oxford he would probaldy give more attention to those subjects there and he better taught in them ?— Undoubtedly, I think he would be better taught, and at the same time I think he would he tempted by the advantages of an Oxford degree to gain a much more complete general education. 5287. {Prof. Smith.) Does he visit the hospitals in his first year ? — On that point there is a difference of opinion among medical teachers as to whether it is desirable or not. Some great teachers have strongly urged that a student should begin to visit the wards of a hospital at the earliest possible period. Generally he does not spend any important amount of time in hospital until at least the second year, or even the third. 5288. What is your own opinion on that point; do you think that he should go to the hospital after one year or after two years’ preliminary study ? — I think that depends upon the length of the whole ])eriod which can be applied to education ; I think it is desirable that he should have some i)ractical clinical work during part of the time that anatomy is being learnt, because the one subject illustrates the other, but it should be during only a part of the time. 5289. (Chairman.) I see you proceed in your paper to deal with the obstacles which now exist to the relation which you would wish to see established between the university and the profession, and the first obstacle relates to the defect of the means of instruc- tion afforded in the university ? — -That point I have to some extent dealt with, that is to say, that is the main reason why education is so much jirolonged in the case of those who go throught the university. 5290. You mean because there is no special instruc- tion ? — Precisely so. 5291. The medical faculty proper is in your opinion not represented there in the system of studies ? — Scarcely represented. 5292. And, therefore, your remedy would be to give that instruction, I presume ? — Quite so; and at the same time it should be in a more complete shape than it is given to the average members of the pro- fession. 5293. Is another obstacle, what I think you have already mentioned, the prolongation of the period of education which atises from dividing it into two parts, the one to be obtained at Oxford and the other else- where? — Quite so ; that is a point which I have tilready dealt with. 5294—5. Is there a third obstacle in the opinion that an Oxford education, is at present, even if at- tainable, not a good preparation for the medical pro- fession ? — That opinion is widely held, and chiefly, if not entirely, because of the late period of life to which the study of practical subjects is deferred. At present anyone who enters Oxford at a reasonable age can hardly begin his medical study in any sense until he is 21 01-22. Then he has four years longer at least before he can take his degree in medicine ; therefore he is 25 or 26 before he can at the very earliest enter on practice. I think that in my time no one has ever taken his degree of M.B. so young as 25 ; it has gene- rally been at the age of 26, 27, or even 28. There have been some instances of very distinguished men who have entered the profession late, but in the absence of any special faculty or special opportunities I quite believe that success more olfen attends those w-ho enter it earlier ; and I may say that this prolongation of education is far more striking at Oxford than anywhere else in F.urope. It is far longer even than at Cambridge. Professor Humphry lately made a communication to the “British iMedical Journal’’ in which he states that under the new regulations at Clamhridge a man may obtain the degrees of B.A. and M.B. by the age of 22. It therefore folloivs that an Oxford man is about three years later in life in taking his degree than a Cambridge man would lie under the new regulations. 5296. At Oxford he might obtain the B.A. degree at 22, might he not ? — (^uite so, but he has after that to have four years of medical study. 5297. Do the regulations of the university require that before he can proceed to the degree of Bachelor of Meilicine ? — Yes. 5298. (Prof. Smith.') You think that 21 or 22 is quite as early as a man ought to be licensed to practise, do you not ? — Yes ; I think so. I think 21 is the very earliest age at which he ought to obtain a bare license, and to get the superior kind of education that the university requires 22 is certainly the earliest age that can be expected. 5299. (Chairman.) Discretion as well as attain- ment is very important to the medical profession, is it not ? — Undoubtedly. 5300. Medical students, I do not know whether justly or unjustly, have had a reputation, have they not, for some want of discretion ? — I think there is less of the noisiness of student life among the medical students of London than among any other body of students that I know, and I am speaking from an experience of several European universities. 5301. What is the age of those who are not edu- cated at Oxford, and who pass into the medical pro- fession through the channels that are most usual, and get into actual practice, or are legally qualified for it ? — I should say not usually before 21 ; in fact they cannot now obtain the legal qualification before that age. 5302. Will you now proceed to mention the way in which you would propose to overcome the obstacles which you have mentioned ? — In the first place I think they may be overcome by organising the studies of anatomy and physiology more completely than they are organised at present. The one university professor of anatomy and physiology has a number of subjects to teach which it is quite impossible that any one pro- fessor could teach. It seems to me that it is highly desirable that the subject of human anatomy should be put on .a difierent basis from that of comparative anatomy and general biology, which are the chief subjects at present of the Linacre chair, and also that physiology, in the strict sense, requires another chair. 5303. \Yu, proliably, are acquainted with the pro- posals which have l)een made at Oxford on that sub- ject? — You mean the proposals of the Hebdomadal Council. I have seen them. 5301. Do you think them insufficient so far as re- lates to those general objects? — The council proposes, UNIVERSITY OF OXFORU COMMISSION : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 349 1 lliitik, tliiit there should bn a ])rofessor of physiology, but 1 uuderstaiul tliat it is proposed to unite it with tlie subject of hygiene or health. At lea.st tliat was pro- posed; whether it is the ultimate proposal I do not know. Then it was further proposed iu the last scheme, which I have seen, that one professor should take as his subject human anafomj' and vertebrate comparative anatomy. It seems to me that that is not adecjuate for tlie purjiose, which I am at present considering. o305. {Prof. Smith'.) You would require a separate professor of human anatomy ? — I should think so. d306. Do you think that it would not be possible to have human anatomy ade<|uately taught by an assistant professor, or an adequately paid demonstrator w'orking under a professor? — It seems to me that it would be much better if it were made a separate sub- ject, parti}' because the professor of human anatomy would have a more distinct relation to the medical students, and partly because I should be very sorry that anything was done to encroach upon the present general teaching of biology and comparative anatomy in the interests of medicine. I shoidd like the interests of medicine to be so independent that there should be no danger of that. ddOT. { Chairman.) And you also thiidc that there should be a more complete teaching in physics, chemistry, and botany ? — What I mean by that is that 1 think that more elenieniaiy lectures iu all these subjects would be necessary under the circumstances proposed, and for this reason, that it is not generally possible for any medical student to give more than one year or one season to attending lectures on each of those subjects, and therefore it is desirable that he should be taken through the whole subject in a com- prehensive manner in one course of lectures. And, perhaps, I am not wrong in thinking, with submission to Professor Henry Smith, that that would also be an advantage to the students in the School of Natural Science in those subjects which they do not make their special subjects. 5308. {Mr. Bernard.) I presume that a student ot medicine could hardly be expected to go through the course of study, and take honours, in the School of Natural Science, could he ? — 1 think he ought to go through enough for the minimum of honours. I think he would be expected to do more than pass in the School of Natural Science, 'fhe present standard in those subjects which are recognised is generally regarded, 1 think, as higher than the pass in the natural science, and equal to a low class. Perhaps I may be corrected if I am wrong in saying this. .5309. He has to combine it to a great extent with his medical studies? — The studies of a natural science student and a medical student would, if I am right, be the same up to a certain point, and there would be a point at which they vrould diverge. .5310. {Chairman.) That is a point in which all agree so far ; and then beyond that point you think that Oxford should also be made the seat of a pro- fessional medical education properly to called ? — I think so myself. A difference of opinion would un- doubtedly arise upon that among those who were in some degree favourable to that proposal as to how far that medical education should be carried. Some would think that a medical student might with advantage spend the whole time at Oxford until he became qualified to practise ; others would think it would be better that he should spend only a part of the time, and then again it would be a question whether he should be forbidden to .spend his whole time there, or simply allowed to make what arrangements he or his friends thought best. 5311. What i^ your own opinion upon these points? — I ihitik we ouglit to look forward in time to pro- viding for a complete qualifying education. 5312. And that a student should be allowed to choose for himself whether he w ould take his whole course there or divide his time between Oxford and some other medical school? — Yes, or w'hethcr he should divide his time. I think I might say that one strong reason in favour of a complete educa- tion is the same reason which exists for advo- cating the sjiecial study of anatomy and physiology at Oxford, viz., that wo should hojre that all the subjects of medical science would be benefited by being taught in a university, as they would be taught in a more scientific and more complete manner, and that the university so far as it entered into conif)etition with other schools would set them a high standard wliich wordd in that way raise the standard of medical education altogether. 5313. Other universitie.s generally have a complete medical education, have they not ? — I think all the continental universitie.s have an education which is formally complete, and among British universities all except St. Andrew’s have one more or less so. At Cambridge, their medical scheme is not complete, but it is far more nearly so than it is at Oxford. 5314. You have seen the suggestions made to the Hebdomadal Council at Oxford by the Regius Pro- fessor of Medicine there, have you not ? — I have read them. 5315. Is it not the effect of his suggestions that the scientific branches of medical knowledge or pre- paratory to medical knowledge should be taught, but that an attempt to establish a practical School of Medicine there should not be made ? — I think it is, or at least the Regius Professor appears to contem[ilate the possibility of having a practical School of Medicine in Oxford, but that the university should not be responsible for it. It is in general terms ; he does not wish the university to undertake the practical medical education. 5316. And Ids reasons for that are, are they not, that it would require a very large field to be covered, and that the circumstances of other places are more favourable? — Yes, and I think another reason men- tioned by the Regius Professor is that he fears it might interfere with the teaching of biology as it at present exists, and make it less scientific. He fears that it might drag down the level of scientific educa- tion. I must confess with all respect that I differ there from the Regius Professor. 1 cannot but think that it would increase the number of science students, and w'ould not tend in any way to lower the quality of the science education. I think it would leave the highest honour men just where t'ley now are, and it w'ould raise the standard of the passmen and the lower honour men. 5317. {Mr. Bernard.) Must you not have lectures calculated for a shorter course than at present exists if they are to serve the purpose of those medical stuilents, who, as 1 understand you, are to complete their preliminary study at an earlier period than that at which a man usually completes his study of natural science?— It would be necessary, I think, to have more lectures in one year in some of the subjects. 5318. {Prof. Smith.) At wdiat period of the Oxford undergraduate’s residence would you have him begin his professional studies, meaning by that his clinical work ? — I should have him count his period of medi- cal study from the end of the first two years, roughly speaking. 5319. You would allow him two years of general education ? — Yes, roughly speaking, till he has j)assed moderations. I should then propose that after that he should register himself as a medical student, and I may remark that that is already recognised in the statutes of the university. In the statute for the Lichfield professorship a medical student is said to be one who has two years’ standing. Then of course for about two years after that he wouhl be chiefly occupied with scientific studies and with anatomy. 5320. Do you mean with chemistry, botany, com- parative anatomy, and human anatomy? — Yes. 5321. Would you also allow physiology to be one of the subjects for those second two years? — In the last year of those two I should siqipose that he would j)ass an examination similar to, if not identical with the preliminary honour examination, and after having passed that he would be occupied X X .3 LONDON. J. F. Payne, Esq., B.A., B.M. 19 Feb. 1878. 350 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LONDON. J. F. Payne, £s(i., li.A., B.M. 19 Feb 1878. almost entirely with anatomy and physiology, and during the time he was occupied with those subjects he would have an opj)ortunity if he thought it desirable, and if he were advised by his teachers, of attending some practice at the Radcliffe Infirmary. Whether he did so or not would be a matter of ad- visability which M ould depend upon the circumstances of each case, but he should, it apjiears to me, at all events have an opportunity of doing so. 5322. And at the end of that second period of tn o years what should be his further course ? — Then if he chose to pass in the additional subjects necessary, he should be encouraged to take his degree in the School of Natural Science in honours. 5323. {Chairma7i.) You are, no doubt, an-are that Dr. Acland recommended that there should be for the purpose of developing the scientific side of medicine a professor of general and comparative pathology, a demonstrator and lecturer on ophthalmology ; a lecturer on comparative national health, and an analyst and demonstrator of medical and sanitary chemistry and microscopy as assistant to the Regius Professor ; but he did not recommend that systematic medicine, practical and clinical medicine, systematic surgery, materia medica, and so on, should be the subjects of instruction. Would you recommend that all those subjects should be taught ?— It seems to me that the proposals of the Regius Professor are most admirable in themselves, but I find a difficulty in understanding hoM- they could be practicable M’itbout a body of medical students to profit by this teaching. That is the only difficulty which I have in grasping the proposal of the Regius Professor. 5324. Tliat is to say, that such subjects as patho- logy and ophthalmology Mould not be studied l)y any one who was not a medical student ? — It appears to me so. 5325. {Prof. Smith.) Nor by anyone who had not already advanced a considerable way in his medical studies ? — That is the light in whieh it strikes me. 5326. {Chairman.) I suppose the other tM’o sub- jects might stand on a different footing. Compara- tive national health, and medical and sanitary chemis- try and microscopy could be perhaps more easily combined with the physical science department ? — I think that the study of national health must be a study for doctors. I hardly see how it can be anything else. 5327. I suppose that would depend in part, M'ould it not, upon questions of water and air and drainage, and the like ? — But at the same time those subjects appear to involve a knoMdedge of diseases. 5328. Those diseases M'hich preventible causes tend to produce ? — Y'es. 5329. I see you have noted doMii in your paper that tliere are many endoM’ments in Oxford Mhich Mmre intended to promote medical studies, but at present they are only partially devoted to their original purpose ; what are those endoM'ments ? — I understand that the Lee’s readership in anatomy Mas originally founded for, andM'as for a long time devoted to, the study of human anatomy. 5330. Now is it applied to other purposes? — For some years it has been applied to the study of com- parative anatomy and' to general zoology. 5331. Is there any other endoMinent so applied, you say many on this paper? — I meant several rather than many. Then again all the funds of Dr. Aldrich were, if I understand rightly, left for the promotion of studies relating to medicine. A portion of those funds now goes to the Regius Professor, another portion is devoted to the study of chemistry, and another goes to the demonstrator of the Linacre Professor. 5332. {Prof. Smith.) T'oti are aware that the changes to M'hich you refer have been made with proper legal authority ? — Y"es, I do not doubt that. Of course I do not express any opinion about such a question as that. 5333. {Chairtnan.) I jtresume that Mhen they Mere made a dilferent view from yours must have pre- vailed ? — The medical education had of course failed in Oxford if it ever existed, and I think it failed chiefly through the growth of the schools of medicine in London. The schools of medicine in London for the most part are not older than this century, and some of them are quite of recent origin ; M'hen they sprang up the imperfect teaching at Oxford Mas naturally deserted. 5334. That connects itself M'ith one of the reasons in Dr. Acland’s report in M'hich he suggests as a strong argument against attemj)ting to undertake the organisation of the department of practice in medi- cine, or at all events doing so at present, that the opportunities for the j)ractical study of medicine in our great metropolitan hospitals are unsurpassed in Oxford, and similar opportunities cannot he found in Oxford. Do you think that similar opportunities can be found in Oxford ? — Perhaps to explain that I may just point out that a medical student M'ho comes to London has the opportunity of joining onl}' one of the medical schools wliieh exist. There are 11 medical schools in London, and the student is confined to one of them. Of those 11 medical schools I find that there are five M'hich are connected M'ith hospitals not larger than the hospital at Oxford, that is with not more than 200 beds. The remaining six have larger hospitals. It a])pears therefore that a student of medicine at Oxford would not be M'orse off in that respect than a student of the smaller hosjntals in London ; and again amongst those smaller hosjiitals in London there are at least tMo whicli are amongst the most distinguished medical schools, namely. Uni- versity College and King’s College, of which the hospitals are even smaller than the infirmai'y at Oxford. For many years the University College Hospital was much smaller than it is now ; it had not more than 100 beds, and with that very small hospital the school attained its very great reputation. 5335. Take the M'hole study of medicine in London, those different schools would stand, M'ould they not, to the general study in a relation something like that of the dificrent colleges at Oxford to the universit}', and you could not reason, could you, fiom the success of any college at Oxford, M’hether great or small, that if you M'ere to set doMU a single college equal to that in any part of the country, it M'ould be equally successful ? — No doubt such an arrangement as your Lordship has suggested for the medical schools of London would be very desirable, but it does not exist. The 11 medical schools are as independent of one another as any university situated at the greatest distance. There is no community of teaching M'hatever betM'een the different medical schools. 5336. {Mr. Bernai^f.) You mean that a student of King’s College cannot attend tlie lectures of an eminent professor at University College Hospital ? — Practically so ; in fact he is as isolated from another hospital in London as if he M'ere in any other city. There is no positive prohibition ; but the regulations are such as to discourage such a practice ; and as it M ould involve additional expense it is very rarely done. 5337. And tliere are no eminent teachers M'hose teaching is common to all those various hospitals ? — That is precisely so. 5338. ( Chairman^ But surely there is a sort o f esprit dc corps and intellectual competition, direct or indirect, between them, is there not, bj^ which they influence each other, and M’hich operates to keep them all up to the mark ? — Undoubtedly there is a great competition. 5339. And that must produce very different effects from M'hat any one of them taken alone might be ex- pected to produce, must it not ? — I think that the competition extends to schools situated elseM'here ; it extends I mean to all the provincial schools of medi- cine. If they M'ere not thought to he at all events nearly as good as the London schools, they Mould not get any students. 5340. Looking at your nuans at Oxford as com- ]iared M'ith one of those schools, at the most all that UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 351 would follow woulil 1)0 tliat you could do as iimcli at any rate as one of the Loudon schools does ? — That is to say, that an individual student would have the same opportunities for hosj)ital practice as at one of the Ia)ndon schools. 53 Id. Or in other words that about the same numher of students might be trained at (Oxford as can be trained in any single school in London, having a liospital not larger than the lladcliffe Infirmary — I think that the number of students does not by any means always stand in relation to the size of the liospital. University College has always had a very large numher of students, although it has had one of the smallest hospitals. 53U2. {Mr. Bernard.) Has it had great teachers ? — -It has had great teachers, and it has had also the support of an academical body, namely, of University College as distinct from the hospital. 5343. {Chairman.) Still so far as the hospital practice is concerned, you must look to the size of the hospital as limiting that, must you not ? — Clearly. I do not mean that the liadcliffe Infirmary would give the best possible medical practice in England, neither can that be said of any of the smaller hospitals in London, but it might give enough, and for the pur- j)oses of teaching it is not certain that a very large number of cases is necessary or even advantageous. 5344. It is desirable, is it not, that all ordinary forms, at all events, of human disease, should be seen sufficiently to be practically studied ? — Precisely. There is a limit below which it would be impossible to go ; and that limit is fixed by the examining bodies in this way, that they will not receive a certi- ficate from any London hospital which has not at least 150 beds, nor from any provincial hospital which has not at least 100 beds. 5345. Has the lladcliffe Infirmary that number of beds? — The Radcliffe Infirmary has, I believe, nearly if not (juite 200. 5346. And are they generally filled? — I understand so, as full as hospitals generally are. In most hosj)i- tals you will not find at any particular moment all the beds occupied. 5347. You say that the Radcliffe Infirmary is well adapted for the purposes of a medical school ; have you any further reason to give for that opinion than what you have already stated ? — I think it is of ade- quate size, and it has a considerable variety of diseases. Besides that, it has one feature which most of the London hospitals have not; it has a block for cases of fever. It receives all cases of fever occurring in the city, such cases in London being mostly or in a large proportion sent to special hospi- tals; and again there is another point, namely, that the Radcliffe Infirmary has a partial organisation for teaching in the shape of the Lichfield professorship, which I think fails to be useful simply in consequence of the want of students. 5348. Do you think that the general attractions of the university would be apt to take off medical students, if they w'ere there, from their special studies ? — I think that would right itself. I think the discipline of Oxford would be to many students an advantage. There are some who might be better for being left to themselves, as they are in London ; but again there are others who would be distinctly better for being bi'ought under some kind of disci- pline. 5349. I see that you are prepared to suggest the professorships which ought to be established in order to meet the requirements of such a medical school as you recommend, and you divide them first of all into those who w'ould be required to provide for the first two years, or about one half of the medical cur- riculum ; which professorships are those ? — A profes- sorship of surgeiy and a professorship of materia medica and pharmacology. With regard to surgery, not only is it parallel to medicine, but it is usual to attend the surgical practice of the hospitals at an earlier period than the medical practice, and there- fore, if there is any reason for having a Clinical Professor of Medicine, there is a stronger reason for having some provision for teaching surgery. 5350. I presume that surgery, as distinct from anatomy, would he taught in the hospital only, would it not ? — Probably partly in the hospital and partly by systematic lectures. 5351. Would the professorship of materia medica and pharmacology include any dejiartment of chemistry ? — It would include the applications of chemistry. 5352. Then you say that in order to treat the subjects which are regarded as necessary by the ex- amining boards three more chairs would be required ; will you state what they are ? — They would be obste- tric medicine, forensic medicine, and pathology. 5353. Forensic medicine is closely connected with materia medica and medical chemistry, is it not ? — Some parts of it, but it is a subject of w ide range. 5354. Do you mean what is included under the name used in German universities of psychiatry, is that what you mean ? — No ; by psychiatry is meant the study of mental diseases — insanity, and so forth. 5355. There is one branch of forensic medicine which would very much connect itself with that, would it not? — It does touch upon it, but it touches upon so many subjects that it is generally thought necessary that it should be taught by one separate person. 5356. Do you not find some difficulty in forming a scientific notion of forensic medicine ? — Speaking frankly, I do not think it a scientific notion to call it forensic medicine. It is rather fragments of different sciences which may be applied to one particular subject, that is to say, to the legal relations of medicine. 5357. That is to say in legal cases sometimes modica) questions arise and medical men give evidence upon the facts of the science ? — Yes. 5358. {Mr. Bernard.) The books on forensic medicine range in rather a rambling kind of way over many subjects which arise in courts of law? — I think that is so. 5359. {Prof. Smith.) Would you think it necessary that the Professor of Pathology should be a distinct pei'son from the Professor of Clinical Medicine, and that there should be two distinct professors even at the first beginning ? — It is required by the Medical Boards that pathology shall be taught as a distinct subject ; but there would be no objection to the pro- fessorship of clinical medicine being held by the professor of any medical subject, or by several pro- fessors in succession. 5360. {Chairman.) There is a book which I have read wfith great interest, by Sir Thomas Watson, upon Pathology and Medicine generally ; does that book represent the sort of lectures which are given by the Clinical Professor ? — No ; those lectures were given at what are called systematic lectures on Medicine ; clinical lectures are lectures on cases. 5361. How does systematic medicine differ from pathology ? — Pathology is the science of disease chiefiy, but not exclusively, as manifest in the dead body. 5362. Then would you unite morbid anatomy with pathology ? — Morbid anatomy is a part of pathology. 5363. {Prof. Smith.) In so far as diseases affect the tissues ? — Yes ; and also physiological explanations of disease come under the head of pathology. 5364. ( Chairman^ As I understand you those five professorships would be sufficient to enable a student to obtain his qualification by means of the Oxford curriculum ?• — They would be undoubtedly sufficient. 5365. What are the other subjects which you would add to them as necessary to complete the whole cycle of medical instruction ? — I think hygiene and national health, and the subject of mental diseases or psychiatry and ophthalmology. Two of those of course are the subjects suggested by the Regius Pro- fessor ; I only refer them to a somewhat later period than he appears to have done. 5366. Why should the eye, taking it apart from optics, be selected rather than any other special X X 4 LONDON. J . F. Payne, Esq., B.A., B.M. 19 Feb. 1878. 352 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : IMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LONDON. .7. F. Payne, Esq., B.A., 13. M. 19 Ecb. 1878. organ ? — I think that is merely a matter of practical convenience, heeansc in order to understand the eye, a very wide range of knowledge is required, a range of knowledge in optics and in mathematics besides practical surgical knowledge. 5367. Do you recommend that all the professors and teachers of medicine and medical sciences should be erected into a Board of Studies, with powers greater than those now exercised by the e.xisting boards ; in what respect should their powers be greater ? — I think that in such a subject as this it would be a great advantage if the Medical Board of Studies had the power of nominating, or at all events of suggesting, new professors, for this particular reason, that the number of professors and the subjects M'hich would I'equire teaching at any particular time would vary, and the new appointments ought to be adapted to the special circumstances of the faculty at that moment, which any other body could hardly understand. 5368. {Prof. Smith.) Your attention must have been directed to the circumstances of a town of the size of Oxford with regard to its capacity of main- taining a sufficiently numerous class of eminent practitioners ; and I would ask you to consider whether it is possible to have a successful practical school of medicine without having an adequate number of eminent and successful practitioners, and whether you think that jmu can be at all sure of having this condition permanently satisfied in a town the size of Oxford, and situated as Oxford is? — I think that as regards Oxford itself in medicine there are practitioners who are of very high standing. In surgery, of course, the university has had no share in educating surgeons, and therefore the university is not responsible for the practitioners of surgery. In other countries, in Germany for instance, a great many eminent surgeons live in the small towns, and a very great many books connected with practical medicine and practical surgery of great value have been written in those small towns. I could quote a number of text books of great importance, some of which have been translated into English, which have been produced in small towns. 5369. Could you advise an eminent surgeon to stay in Oxford and to settle himself there with a view to practice, instead of trying his fortune in London ? — I should think that for one eminent surgeon there would be a very good career. .5370. ( Chairman.) Generally there has always been at least one eminent surgeon there, has there not ? — Yes, but I think that if any surgeon practising in Oxford had the position and prestige of a professor of surgery, his position would be much higher even than it is. 5371. {Prof. Smith.) And you would hope to have men in Oxford of the same eminence as the great authorities in the profession ? — I think it would be a post extremely sought after. It would probably not be one of the most lucrative in the profession, but it certainly would be a distinguished one. 5372. {3Ir. Bernard.) Do you think, then, that we should succeed in obtaining teachers of eminence without having to pay them very high salaries ? — In other subjects than medicine and surgery it would always be a question whether the teachers of the medical sciences should be allowed or expected to practise. If they were not allowed to practise, or did not practise, they would of course require somewhat high salaries, although not higher, I think, than it is now generally thought are required by the professors of other subjects. 5373. In a large town the medical staff of a great medical school is almost self-supporting, is it not ? — Yes, the medical stall' is in this sense self-siq>porling ; it is supported by the fees of the students. The amount of faes received by each j)iofcssor or teacher is often very small indeed. 5371. But also, is it not kept up by the oj)portuni- ties of practice? — (Juite so. 5375. That is the main thing, is it not, which makes a medical school self-supporting in a large town ? — That is undoubtedly ; but still there are rather different (juali- ties required in a good teacher from those which go to making a successful practitioner. 5376. As a matter of fact, however, is it not the case that in hospitals in large towns practitioners are willing to take the position of teachers, not for the inducement of the salary or of the fees, but also for the position it gives them, and the opportunities of practice? — Undoubtedly; many of those posts to which you refer are almost honorary. They may be worth less than 100/. a year. Many of the most eminent teachers in London do not receive for their lectures more than 100/. a year. 5377. They are paid otherwise, in fact, but they are good lecturers ; although their lectures are almost honorary yet they lecture assiduously, do they not ? — Yes, quite so ; according to the accepted standard ; but a higher standard would be expected in a university. 5378. According to your scheme, what should be the special functions, do you think, of the Kegius Professor of Medicine ? — He would, I suppose, gi\e lectures on systematic medicine, precisely such lecture's as some to vediich Lord Selborne referred just now as having been given by Sir Thomas Watson. 5379. {Chairman.) There have been for a long time in Oxford a Regius Professor ot Medicine, a Clinical Piofessor, and an infirmary ; why have not those inslitutions produced anything like the fruits that similar institutions would in London ? — 1 think the reason appears to be historical ; it is that at the time when medical education in London was organised there was no intei’est in medical subjects, in Oxford. At that time the g.^eat majority of the governing bodies, both of the universities and the colleges, being clergymen, wercentirely unacquainted with the subject, and took comparatively little interest in it; but I believe if at the beginning of the cenlury it had been thought desirable to revive the medical faculty it might have been done. 5380. I do not quite cleai'ly see what the other authorities at the university could do in the matter ; surely that would depend upon the medical profes- soriate and the use they made of the infirmary, would it not?— Pei’fectly ; but their lessons would have hecn useless unless they had had other lectures added on to them such as I think it desirable they should have now. That ap[)cars to be the true answer. 5380o. {Mr. Bernard.) We have been told, no doubt very justly, that the hospitals in London are worked with a view in great measure to medical study and instruction ; I suppose that some changes would be ])ractically necessary in the working and the manage- ment of the Radcliffe Infirmary to make it serve tlie same purpose ? — I think very few changes are re- quired. It would only be necessary, if there w ( re a professor of surgery appointed, that the university should enter into some sort of arrangeiTient with the managers of the Radcliffe Infirmary, giving the pro- fessor of surgery the right to teach theie. Such an arrangement, I may say, is made in several similar cases, for instance at Edinburgh. The witness withdrew. Thomas Charles Baking, Esq., M.A., M.P. (late Fellow of Brasenose College), examined. 5381. {Chairman.) The Commission will be happy to hear anything which you wish to suggest to them upon the subject of their inquiry? — I oidy want to express an opinion on one point, but on that my opinion is a strong one. I mean the desirability of altering, if possible, either the number of years or the number of terms of residence required for a degree. I speak more or less from my kiiowledge of the com- mercial classes who find that they are debarreil from sending up sons rviiom they would otherwise desire to UNIVKUSITY OF OXFOKI) COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 353 send to Oxford by the knowledge that they must under tlie present circumstances spend four years at Oxford. That is a loss from practical working, and tlien tlicy would have to come to the work, and, jirobably, would be for the rest of their life, at a disadvantage as against men who, though younger and less well educated, liave got a start of them, which it is very difficult to make up. I have lived among commercial men for the last ‘15 years, not only in the City hut in Essex, and I constantly hear this expression, “ How “ I should like to send my son to Oxford or Cam- “ bridge, but I cannot keep him out of business for “ four years. I think he could take honours more “ quickly, but I cannot run the risk of 16 terms.” 5382. Are those chiefly gentlemen whose means of getting their sons into business are uncertain, or does it extend also to those who pretty well see their way ? — I include both classes. Of course the latter is very much smaller in itself than the former, but they are persons who think that their sons would be able to make a very much better start in the world if they got the imprimatur of a good class at Oxford, but they cannot; either they have not the money, or there is the handicapping by reason of others having got so much start in the commercial or the legal race (soli- citors I am speaking of more particularly) that they cannot afford to do it. We had a very strong division in the House of Commons upon the point, and I think every commercial man in the House who spoke ex- pressed himself very strongly upon the subject. The representatives of most of the centres of commerce spoke, and after all there was only a majority of four against us, if I remember rightly. 5383. Have you formed a distinct notion of the modification in the present system which you would recommend? — My proposal would be one of two, either to revive in favour of all persons who were willing to avail themselves of it the privilege which existed in my days at Oxford in favour of the sons of noblemen, and, I think, of baronets and baronets’ sons, of taking their degree if they chose at tlie end of eight terms, or if l2 terms, which I believe are the legal residence required, were still maintained, that there should be an optional term inserted in each academic year. ■ 5384. Do you mean to divide the year into four terms instead of three? — There are four terms now, and I mean that I would add a term each year so that you could get the necessary' terms in two and a half years instead of in three years. 5385. Or perhaps the simpler way would be by not making it dependent upon terms, but upon a certain length of time computed according to the calendar year? — Yes, I refer to the statutory residence. 5386. {Mr. Bernard.) What do you exactly mean by adding an optional term ? — The one term in the year which has been discussed so much, allowing a term to be kept optionally in the year by persons who want to take their degree earlier. 5387. {Chairman.) But the practical object would be just as well answered if you did not do that — if they were at liberty to take their degree within a definite time ? — Yes, as Lord Salisbury did ; he took his B.A. degree when he had resided eight terms. I am speaking under correction. 5388. Y’ou do not adopt the view of some who would admit any young man to pass the examinations whenever he chose to present himself for them, do you ? — No. I think you would lose the whole ad- vantage in that way. I do not think that w'ould meet what we want. The object which w'e put before our- selves is this, that if men who go into the classes of life which I am speaking of had this opportunity, there would, I thinkj much benefit arise. If they still adhered to their previous determination to become men of commerce, or solicitors, or stockbrokers, or anything of that kind, they would raise the average, intellectual and moral, standard of the general mass of the inhabitants of the city of London certainly. Then there would be a second advantage, which I think would arise from it, that a very exceptionally Q 6223. able man would show his talent in those two years, and it might be well worth his father’s while then to let him go on and adojjt one of the strictly learned professions, because he had shown that he was able to distinguish himself in it ; whereas the father does not deliberately undertake beforehand the sacrifice of four years. 5389. A certain amount of residence as well as passing certain examinations is, in your view, impor- tant ? — Without residence a degree would be valueless from my point of view. 5390. {31r. Bernard. ) If a chance of residing in the long vacation as well as during term were given, do you think that persons would practically be willing to avail themselves of it? — Yes, I do. 5391. {Prof. Smith.) Would you care to have the time of entrance ihto the university placed a little earlier than is customary at present ? — Certainly, 1 should. I should like to restore it to what it was 25 years ago ; only that it is not the tendency of the pre- sent system, though there is no law against it. '5392. But something might be done by a change of the regulations as to scholarships towards reducing the age of entrance? — Yes. 5393. And that would be a point which you think that the commercial classes would care about ? — It is a point that I think they feel very strongly about, in that they feel that they are excluded by what is now practically the average age for a degree, namely 23. 5394. I mean that the change from 19 to 18, or I will even go back as far as 17, would be a change that they would appreciate, and which would render it easier for them to send their sons to the university ? — If it would induce the habit of going at 17, it would be so. 5395. {Chairman.) 1 suppose a man in business who wished to send his son to Oxford, but to whom it was inconvenient to send him so late as 19, would not scruple to send him at 18, w'ould he ? — No ; he would prefer sending him at 17 ; hut even if young men go up at 17, many of the colleges will not take them unless they come into residence immediately on matriculation, and they cannot take their degree till their 16th term. I believe at Balliol they will not let a man matriculate till he comes into residence. James, who got the scholarship two years agu from Rugby, has, 1 think, not gone into residence yet, and he got it at 16; he is perhaps an exceptional person, but having got the Balliol scholarship at 16, he could have per- fectly well taken his degree at 19 or 20; and there are other cases of the same kind. 5396. I jiresume that the college would have allowed him to come into residence if his friends wished it? — It was a matter between the school and the college ; the school wanted to keep him, but if he had been a poor man's son he would have been very alad to go up. 5397. Is that all that you wish to say upon that subject ? — That is all, except that I do not hold, as a good many friends at Oxford do, that a term in the long vacation is an impossible thing. They talk of the absolute necessity of si.x months’ holidays in the year, but I think your Lordship is aware that you very seldom had them. 5398. {Prof. Smith.) Y'ou would think it possible, would you not, to obtain an additional two months’ residence without placing it in the months of August and September? — I have lived in Oxford in tho.se months, and have always found it very comfortable, and I do not see why it should not be so now. 5399. {Sir M. JC. Ridley.) One of the objects of an Oxford education, as I understand from your point of view, is to give the young men the advantage of association with the general educated classes of the country? — Yes, and they would get that, I think, in the other terms. 5400. Would they get it in August and September ? — In the other terms they would have six months of that association. 5401. You think that a term to themselves to men who were anxious to take their degree tpiickly, would not be objectionable? — No, that would not be ob- LONDON. T. C. Baring, Esq., M.P. 19 Feb. 1878. 354 UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LONDON. T. C. Baring, Esq., M.P. 19 Feb. 1878. jectionable because tliey would liave quite as much of association as they would require. 5402. Regarding- it from the point of view of the tutors and teachers, are they to remain up entirely for the teaching of those young men ? — I should think that by the combination of the colleges that might be done ; we have combinations now pretty thoroughly organised. I stayed up almost all two long vacations, and there was almost no difficulty whatever as to tuition. There was one tutor at Wadham and one tutor at Trinity, and I think one at Exeter, and this was all that was wanted. 5403. Then you would extend this shortening of the terms, would you, to honour men as well as pass- The witne men ? — If they please. Of course that puts the man who does not remain up at a disadvantage ; but you have that already at Cambridge in the case of wranglers. You have men coming up from Dublin and from the Scotch universities who from one cause or other are perhaps five years older than their competitors, and there is nothing to prevent that at Oxford at the present moment. 5404. Then there is no practical disadvantage, as at Cambridge ; because the men are jdaced alphabetical!)'- and not in the order of merit in the classes? — No, it is not so bad at Oxford as it is at Cambridge ; it is perhaps a little unfair for a man of 22 to compete against a man of 26 or 28, but this is the case now. 1 withdrew. .7. Andrew, Esq.. D.M. James Andrew, Esq., D.M., Physician to St. Bartholomew’s Hospital, and Lecturer on Medicine (late Fellow of Wadham College), examined. 5405. Chairman.) I see from the notes with which you have favoured us that you are not one of those who think that a complete medical school could be successfully formed in Oxford ? — I think it could not in all probability. 5406. Will you have the goodness to state your reasons for thinking so ? — If there was any gentleman there who was a great teacher, I have no doubt that he would have a school, but it would be impossible to make one by any legislation. 5407. At Oxford, I presume you think that the natural obstacles are serious ? — The obstacles are too great to be overcome, except by some, unusual means. 5408. And at other places they are much the same ? — Yes, in other provincial towns. 5409. Still you think that for some parts of medical study the place would have great advantages ? — Very great advantages. 5410. And that those advantages might be made more of than they are at present? — Most certainly. 5411. Would you state in what respect? — With regard to the first two years of medical study, if during the time when the medical student is engaged in the study of anatomy, physiology, and chemistry in its medical aspects, he was able also to do a little medicine and become practically acquainted with diseases, although to a very slight extent, I think he could spend his time to very great advantage. That advantage at present he cannot obtain if he stops in Oxford during the first two years of so-called medical study ; whilst he is engaged on the so-called prelimi- nary subjects he is practically deferring the beginning of his medical education for full two years. I think where a man is going to practise an art like medicine that makes the beginning of his purely technical study rather too late. He is getting to a time of life when he is no longer capable of acquiring so easily the mental and bodily habits which are required lor it. 5412. Do you suggest that some part of his purely professional training should be obtained at Oxford, or that the time should be shortened for this preliminary study, or what ? — 1 think it would be better that this part of his preliminary training should be obtained at Oxford. I tbink that the Radcliffe Infirmary is quite large enough, and affords quite a sufficient selection of disease for a man to begin study there. There are a great many things to be learnt in the way of using instruments, and so forth, which he can learn quite as well in the infirmary at Oxford, as in any hospital in London ; in fact, 1 may say almost better. There are a great many methods of examining patients which may be learnt from the smallest number of patients, indeed the use of such instruments as the ophthalmo- scope and the laryngoscope can be learnt almost better from a healthy person than from a diseased one. 5413. Do you not think it would be desirable that there should be some change in the subjects of the first medical examination for tbe bachelor’s degree ? — Yes; because at present the second M.B. exa- amination comes at the end of four years of so-called medical study, but in point of fact the subjects re- quired for the first M.B. examination are treated in so purely scientific a way that medical education properly speaking docs not begin until that examina- tion has been passed ; and consequently the university at present gives its M.B. degree, not at the end of four years of medical study, but at the end of two. It gives its medical degree for the minimum of medicine, with, T admit, a very high standard of previous scientific training; but it is not a medical degree; it is a degree which I say is given for the minimum of medicine with the maximum of physics and biology. 5414. Do you think if desirable that that examina- tion should take place at an earlier period ? — I think that there should be some change made in the sub- jects. I would wish candidates for the M.B. degree to pass a preliminary scientific examination, or if you like in the Natural Science School, before the beginning of the four years of medical study. The subjects taken up for tbe first M.B. examination would consist of human anatomy and physiology, and the medical aspects of chemistry and botany, instead of its being purely a scientific examination. 5415. Do you think it desirable that a student should still be required to have four years of medical study before obtaining a degree in medicine ? — I think that four years is not too long for medical study. 5416. We have had the opinion expressed that it is rather desirable that men should be qualified to pratice at an earlier age than is possible if the course is prolonged so much. What do you think about that ? — Of course the Oxford M.B. is not the sole avenue which ))eople have to enter the profession. I suj)pose it would always be taken by men who had extra time and advantages in other ways to enable them to go through a more prolonged course of study ; and I should be very sorry indeed to see the Oxford medical degree put at the same level as the licensJ of the College of Surgeons, or even the license of the College of Physicians. 5417. If you made it a great medical school, it would be necessary for that purpose, would it not, to put it on a level with others ? — It would be. 5418. But you do not think that desirable? — I think it would be very undesirable, to put it at the same minimum level. 5419. {Prof. Smith.) Could you not place one of the four years before the Bachelor of Arts degree ; that is to say, could not you arrange the course of studv in the Natural [Science School so that the can- didate who had passed the examination there should have really done one year’s work out of the four years ? — I said just now that physics and chemistry might be taken at the B.A. examination, or at a preliminary examination. It would be a good thing if that was done, and the gentlemen who had passed in the Natural Science School in those subjects, and had reached a certain standard, should then be allowed to begin their medical studies as soon as that examina- tion was passed, so that would save a year in all pro- bability ; but I think that it would be a bad thing to force all men who go to Oxford with the intention, UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 355 or wlio form the intention wlien there, of practising medicine, to go throiigli tlie Natural Science Scliool. I should he very sorry to see the profession divorced from all kinds of culture except this one. 54'20. 1 do not intend that a passage through the Natural Science School should be compulsory, but only to suggest that it might be very important for many students to shorten as much as possible the time of study, and that there Avould, at any rate, be that way of making the course shel ter? — I think it might be done in that way; but I think that fora man to take a degree in the way in which it ought to be done in a university like Oxford, he requires full four years of medical study. You see that, unfortunately, medicine is not altogether a science ; it is an art, and it requires a certain length of time for practice. 5421. Then you do not object, as some persons do, to Oxford as a place of education for medical men, because a man cannot come there very well before he is IS or 17 at the earliest. What you say generally is, that his medical studies must take him seven years ? — No, I dare say you have read what Professor Michael Foster says upon that subject. I do not agree with him. I agree with a great deal of what he says about a man’s study being begun before a certain age ; but I think that he rather overstates it. It is clear that by his method, medicine would be entirely divorced from all the older studies. A man could not go in for the mathematical tripos at Cambridge, and he could not go through any of the classical schools in Oxford on that system, and there- fore 1 should be very sorry to see that done. 5422. {Chairman.') You have something to suggest with regard to some medical exhibitions which now exist at Wadham College. Those I suppose at present are strictly collegiate endowments, are they not ? — At present they are endowments which are given to a scholar or to a fellow of the college. They were founded by Dr. W’ills in 1806, I held them myself; it is now nine years since I resigned one of them. My predecessor I think was §0 or 40 years my senior. 1 am not quite certain, but I think they have not been held more than two or three times, or perhaps not more than twice since they were first founded in 1806. There is a stipend of 18/. a year for the scholar, and 90/. a year for the fellow. If the two were put together and made one exhibition, that would be 108/. a year, and if it was made tenable only for a period of five or seven years, and thrown entirely open to all men who had passed the second M.ll. examination, it would be a very valuable prize to many of them. 5423. A^ou think that it should be separated from the college (except that the college might have the management of the endowment), and thrown open to the whole university ? — It ought to be thrown open to all the university. Perhaps the man who gained it might become a member of the college, I should be glad myself to see that, as an old member of the college. It might be possible that the stipend should be increased, that the college should make it up to 200/. a year, and call it a fellowship. 5424. The examination, at present, is a physical science examination? — The examination should be a medical examination. .5425. But is it so now — It is given not by examination at all, but I would give it by a medical examination as distinguished from a physical science examination. 5426. What would be the qualifications that you would require ? — That the holder should have passed the second examination for the M.B. There are two examinations, of which I have a sy\\-Ah\x^ {delivering in the same), the first is at the end of the second year. 5427. For what length of time do you recommend that those fellowships should be held ? — Certainly not for more than seven years. I should prefer five years myself. 5428. Should there be any restrictions as to residence or marriage? — I would have no restrictions at all as to residence or pursuit during the time. 5429. Is there at present any medical fellowship in the university ? — I believe none. There is a fellow- ship at Pembroke College, the holder of which has to [)roceed to the D.M. degree, but it is granted not for a medical examination, but for one in classics or mathematics and in some branch of physical science. 5430. In your paper you make mention of a botanical scholarship, to what do you refer ? — I refer there to the Warner Botanical exhibition, which is of no use at all. The stipend of it perhaps might be added to the 108/. a year, of Dr. W’ills’ foundation. 5431. Do you know what the stipend is ? — I do not know at all it was founded by a benefactor named Warner, who was also a great benefactor to the library. 5432. Do you believe that at present it is a mere matter of patronage ? — I do not know whether it is held by any person, or whether the proceeds go to the living fund. 5433. Is there any other suggestion which it occurs to you to make to the Commissioners ? — No, I think I have nothing further which I particularly wash to state. 5434. {Mr. Bernard.) To give effect to your views, would it be necessary to make any additions to the teaching staff at Oxford ? — It would be necessary, I think, to make some slight addition, but not very much. The distinct professorships held by the same professor, at least at j)resent, no doubt must be divided, and in that case there is a sufficient staff, that is to say, if anatomy and physiology were separated. 5435. Would that be all ? — I think that would be almost sufficient, but I am not prepared with the exact details with regard to it. 5436. {Prof. Smith.) Probably you would wish to have provision made for teaching human anatomy at Oxford ? — Yes, I think that human anatomy ought to be taught at Oxford. 5437. Would you require a separate establishment of some kind for it, or would you leave it under one of the two branches of the Linacre chair ? — I think it might be taught by a reader, or a demonstrator under tl;e professor, that w'ould be quite sufficient ; it is jn-actically taught so in all medical schools. 5438. ( Chairman.) Are the clinical lectures now given sufficient in your judgment ? — None are given but the present staff of the Infirmary is quite com- petent to give clinical instruction. I am sure of that, from my knowledge of them. 5439. {Mr. Bernard.) With respect to the Regius Professor of Medicine, should he, in }'our opinion, be an active lecturer on medicine or on any medical subject ? — I think that he ought to be an active teacher. 5440. In what way ? — That the students of medicine should have access to the infirmary, and attend him in his visits there. 5441. A’ou mean that he would teach clinically ? — AYs, he would teach clinically. 544lff. Would he give any other teaching ? — 1 do not know that it is necessary that he should have systematic lectures, I am not prepared to recommend that ; but he should give clinical teaching at all events. Perhaps I might be allowed just to observe that there are two distinct sets of medical students who might be benefited, as it seems to me, by some slight changes at Oxford. First it would be a good thing to a certain degree to my own profession generally if those who were going into that profession, and who had not time or opportunity to take an Oxford medical degree, were still able to spend a part of the period of their professional education at Oxford. As Professor Smith suggested, the last year before the B.A. degree might be utilised for medical study, and count for medical study, and in that case they could take the Oxford B.A., having already spent a year of medical study there, and pass the ordinary medical examinations afterwards, outside the university, at almost the same age as they do now, and they would have the advantage Y r- 2 LONDON. J. Andrew, Esq., D.M. 10 Feb. 1878. 356 UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION: — MINUTES OF PiVIDENCE. LONDON. Andrew, Esq., D.M. 19 Feb. 1878. C. H. liobarts, Esq., M.A. 20 Feb. 1878. at all events ot a partial univer.sity training altliough a much higher character, who would take the univer- ot course they would not take the Oxford M.B. That sity M.B. degree itself; and their four years of medical would be one set, and there would be a further set study ought to begin after the completion of their arts very much fewer in number, but on the whole men of course, and not before. The witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow at 1 1 o’clock. LONDON. Wednesday, 30th February 1878. Present : The Right Honourable LORD SELBORNE in the Chair. The Right Hon. The Earl oe Redesdale. | The Right Hon. Montague Bernard, D.C.L. Sir Matthew White Ridley, Bart., M.P. The Rev. T. Vere Bayne and T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretarie.'t. C. H. Robarts, Esq., M.A. (hellow of All Souls’ College), examined. .5442. {Chairman.) I will take the heads with which you have been good enough to favour us of what you have to sa)', in the order in which they appear on your paper, and I see that the first subject is the, university in its relations to the nation generally. Will you give us your views upon that subject ? — I would briefly sum up what I had intended to say on that subject by observing that the present crisis in the history of Oxford is chiefly due to the centralising tendencies of the age, and is not to be met simply by the removal of a few economical anomalies ; that although the university cannot occupy the position and influence she possessed when INlilton described a university as one of the noblest institutions of the State, it may lose even its present influence as one of the seats of the higher education, unless it is restored and invigorated as a great literary and scientific centre ; that it is chiefly the wealthier classes who can constantly avail themselves of opportunities for higher education, and that in every state of society the edu- cation of the rich is of at least etjual importance with that of the poor, and that it is therefore of the great- est national interest that the resources and opportu- nities now presenting themselves should be used for the purpose of rendering the university great and famous as a centre and repository of the highest learning. The university would attract men of dis- tinction and students from all parts of the world as much by tlie development of the literary and scien- tific facilities at her command, as by the payment of eminent men to come to her as professors. The diffi- culties connected with academical patronage and ex- tensive endowments are so many that the expenditure of any surplus resources of the university or colleges, or the maintenance and extension of libraries and museums and institutions, is far preferable to the crea- tion of a fresh number of highly paid offices. This mode of expenditure is least liable to abuse, and has the further advantage that, by the free provision of the means of study and research to all, one of the dis- advantages of poverty in severe competition is re- moved. Upon this question of academical patronage I would only state my concurrence with tiie paper on Electoral Boards by Professor Rolleston (based on (he Rector of Lincoln’s and Sir W'illiam Hamilton’s ob- servations) the substance of which has I believe been already given in evidence. He advocates the repre- sentation on every board of the opinion of the outside world, of experts in the subject, and of the resident body in the university. I would not, however, neces- sarily give the college which provides the funds for the chair any special representation on the board. I would add that when an appointment is made greater publicity should be given to the vacancy and the conditions of the appointment, not only in England, but even on the Continent. The great object in appointing a professor .should be, ajiart from local or personal considerations, to get the very best man for the place by every possible means. In one of the Swiss universities, the professors are appointed by one of the council of State, and it is said that he travels over Europe like an impresario himself before filling up an appoint- ment, in order to get the very best man. Professor- ships should be terminable without a power of renewal, but in order to obviate any inconvenience in excep- tional cases, there might be special regulations for these cases, empowering their continuance with the consent of the University Council. .5443. You would have them all terminable with those exceptions ? — With certain exceptions which it is difficult to lay down beforehand. .5444. {Mr. Bernard.) You mean terminable and the previous holder not capable of re-election, except on those conditions which you have mentioned ? — Except on very exceptional and special conditions ; but I Mould obviate any injustice by having a pension fund for the benefit of the outgoing holder upon retire- ment at the expiration of his tenure, or on account of ill-health. .544.5. {Earl of Redesdale.) For what term do you think the professors ought to be appointed ? — I think the average term should be about 10 or 12 years. .5446. {Mr. Bernard.) Would you give a man a pension after 10 or 12 years ? — A pension, say, of 200/. or .300/. a year, in proportion to the services. But 1 would leave the special conditions to be regu- lated from time to time by the University Council. There should also be occasional and temporary pro- fessors to meet any exceptional want of the university. It might be desirable to have at any moment lectures upon a particular subject, and there might be one man pre-eminently fit to give lectures upon that subject, and there should be a fund under the control of the university in order to endow a professorship for a limited time, or even for one year. 5447. {Chairma?t.) You are, no doubt, aware that the Hebdomadal Council has recommended that, and there seems to be a general concuiTance as to the desirability of it ?— The professors’ stipends should be partly by fees, the fees, however, not being paid by the pupils, but by the university in proportion to the number of pupils. 1 think it the long vacation is to continue without any modification, the remuneration of the professors, with the exception of those whose M’ork was in the nature of scientific research, should be regulated according to a scale, if the actual time devoted to the university is only five months in the course of the year. By this I do not desire the abo- lition of the long vacation, except in this respect : I believe that in (Oxford we might, without any disad- vantage, adopt the system that they have at Cam- bridge, where the residents consist of about, I think, 500 or 600 during the long vacation. 5446. Is there anything in the law of the university UNIVEKSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 357 at Oxford to prevent tliis from happen inji now, if there were a spontaneous tendency to it ? — I know that at some, if not ail, colleges residence is discouraged on the ground that there would be no one in residence to look after the discipline and tuition. 5449. What }’ou recommend would Ijc that in all colleges those who wished to go through the long vacation should have a right to continue there ? — Yes. 1 would also recommend that if possible the terms in which the professors are bound to give their lectures should be extended, or that in certain cases assistant professors should reside, so that men who might be desirous to reside for the purposes of genuine study might have the advantage of the professorial assistance. 5450. To induce the professors to remain, you would curtail their salaries if they did not ? — Yes, in some cases. 5451. (Earl of Redesdale.) Would not that cause a great interruption in the course of lectures unless it was repeated after the university gathered together ? — From my own recollection some years back -the lectures are alniost invariably renewed upon a dif- ferent subject each term, or they go over the same ground again, in each successive academical year or successive term. The long vacation makes a com- plete break, so far as I remember, in the whole system of university study. 5452. {Chairman.) However, you say that such a system as you recommend is actually in force and at work at Cambridge ? — Yes. In a book published last year On the Action of Examinations, Mr. Latham says, “The long vacation at Cambridge is the time “ when the greatest amount of healthy work is done ; “ the idlers are away, and about 500 or 000 genuine “ students, 80 or 100 of whom are actually engaged “ in tuition or in maintaining discipline, occujjy the “ place during July and August.” 5453. But you are not able to tell us definitely what is the difference between the actual regulations of the two universities in that respect? — 'fhere are, I believe, no special regulations on the subject at Oxford. 5454. Are there at Cambridge ? — I think it is en- tirely left in the hands of the colleges. 5455. Then in fact, so far as law and regulation is concerned, the two universities are on the same foot- ing, only that at Camlnidge it is encouraged, and at Oxford it is not ? — Yes. 5456. ( Sir M. IV. Ilid/c//.) Are there no local pro- fessorial lectures during the long vacation ? — I am not aware of there being any. 5457. The professors arc not in residence at all, are they, except in so far as they may be tutors? — I think that is the case. 5458. {Chairman.) What is your idea of a pro- fessor’s income ; is it to be uniform all round, or varying according to the subjects ? — Notwithstanding the desirability of attracting the very best men in any particular subject to Oxford, as a general rule 1 would aim at an average uniformity of salary. 5459. Have you formed an opinion as to what should be the normal salary of a professor, subject to any such reduction as you suggest supposing a pro- fessor works in the long vacation, what ought he to have a year ? — I think if a j)rofessor resided at Oxford all the year round and devoted himself exclusively to university life, 1,000/. a year would be a fair income, with a pension at the end of 12 years. 5460. And then the deduction for the long vacation would be in what proportion to that .«alary ? — I think that, with the exceptions I have mentioned, it should be about one-fifth. 5461. {Earl of Redesdale.) Do you mean with the fees added P — I mean 1 ,000/. a year to be the average including fees. 5462. Necessarily some professors would command a larger attendance from the nature of their instruc- tion ; would you have therefore a lower amount of fixed income for such professors ? — If the university was rendered so attractive by the increase of literary and scientific facilities in the way that it might be developed, the concourse of real students of all kinds and of all ages would be far greater than now, and a professor known to be eminent in his sub- ject would attract pupils round him from all quar- ters. If it were possible, for instance, that common law could be taught by any university lecturer, and the lecturer was known to be the most able teacher of the subject, people would flock to Oxford for the mere sake of attending his lectures. 5463. For instance, 1 will sujipose that there was a professor of common law with such attractions, would a professor of Hebrew have the same power of collecting numbers ? — I think the candidates for ordi- nation are very numerous ; and it is [>ossible that you would have a similar attendance in the one case as in the other ; but there are doubtless some cases where the pupils must necessarily be of a limited number, notwithstanding any renown the professor might have. 5464. If therefore the professors are to have an equal allowance, and part of their allowance is to depend upon what they receive from those who attend their lectures, tlie amount of their fixed salaries must be different ? — Yes ; I do not seek to establish a rigid uniformity, but in so far as an average can be made, it should be 1 ,000/. a year. 5465. {Chairman.) I have not quite understood your meaning, because I thought you said that you would on the whole aim at giving 1,000/. all round, taking the fees into account ; was not that what you said ? — Yes. 5466. What would be the difference between that and a fixed salary of 1,000/. a year all round, if the university and not the pupils paid the fees ? — Because in the case of a very inefficient professor his case would be met by a deficiency of fees. 5467. But then you would not give them 1,000/. a year all round, taking into account the fees ? — I would calculate the nature of the attendance which an able man ought to command, and which the subject would admit of, and on these data I would endeavour to make an estimate. 5468. I now understand you to mean that the fixed salary should be something less than 1,000/. a year, but that those who had large classes would have so much allowed them .in the shape of fees by the university according to the number of pupils? — Precisely; and if he was very successful he would exceed 1,000/. a year perhaps by a large amount. But 1 should prefer to see the resources of the university primarily devoteil to the provision of perfect libraries, and perfect mu- seums, and a perfect organisation in conne.xion with these. Many questions of perplexity connected with the endowment of research as with those connected with eleemosynary endowments would be solved. The university lecture is sometimes no more than a tedious repetition of some text-book, which we could our- selves refer to with greater ease and profit ; “ nowa- “ days we learn everything from books often better “ than by oral intercourse with teachers, and only the “ practical branches of knowledge depending on in- “ spection, observation, and experiment constitute an “ exception,” Carlyle has said; “men have not now “ to go in person to where a professor is actually “ speaking, because in most cases you can get his “ doctrines out of him through a book, and can then “ read it, and read it again, and study it. The inven- “ tion of printing has modified the existence of uni- “ versities to their very base.’’ The desire for the endowment of research seems in some measure to spring from a want which was in the last and pre- vious century satisfied by the patronage which was given by great noblemen to literary men, wdio were given a home with leisure and eveiy facility for study, on the understanding that they should devote themselves to science or literature. The system which now exists at ( )xford of scholarships is not an eleemosy- nary system, because it chiefly works for the benefit of rich students, who can afford the necessary educa- tion. I would not multiply cither scholarships or prize fellowships, for as soon as they are so numerous Y y 3 LONDON. C. H. Robarts, Esq., M.A. 20 Feb. 1878. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 35!S LONDON. C. H. Robarts, Esq., M.A. 20 Feh. 1878. as to be practically attainable by all who go through a given amount of preparation they defeat their own end. Macaulay emphatically declared against paying anybody to study until all who were desirous of study had the means of instruction. On this principle I would aim at providing for every student every pos- sible facility in the shape of libraries and museums without payment, direct or indirect. In various reports presented on the part of the university the libraries are described as being essential edu- cational features of the case, and are described in the report of the Commission of 1854 as incentives to studj'. The progress of the university libraries has not been in proportion to the growth of the resources of the university, although the vast in- crease of lecturers has so greatly altered the conditions of university life and studies. Hallam described the Bodleian to be the greatest glory of Oxford, and the one great cause of its literary distinction. There are many who, while admitting this, would develop the university library chiefly according to the demands of the undergraduates and resident teachers. But if the library system is to be of . assistance for the purj)o.ses I have been indicating, it must be developed upon a very different scale from what has been sometimes suggested. 5460. Do you suppose that hitherto the idea of the demands of undergraduates has had any influence upon the system of the Bodleian ? — In some respects. 5470. It must be very recent if it be so ? — I do not refer so much to the actual system in operation so much as to what some think the Bodleian ought to aim at. I have heard it maintained in more than one quarter that the function of the university libra- ries is only to provide the undergraduates and resident teachers with the books which they recpiire for their ordinary use. 5471. One would have thought that was a very new theory of the Bodleian ? — It may not perhaps have been openly advocated until lately, but it certainly has had the effect that there has been no extensive aid given to the Bodleian. After the reform of 1854 the resources of the Bodleian w'ere, I believe, in no way added to. 5472. {Mr. Bernard.) It is quite a new theory to me, for I was for a considerable time a curator of the Bodleian, and I confess I never heard of it^ and there- fore it must be more recent than my time ? — I am glad to say that I do not think that it has obtained preva- lence in the university or in the actual administration ofthe Bodleian. .5473. {Chairman.) Perhaps what you mean is really this, that former Commissions, as a general rule, considering what should be done with any snrpkis funds within the university, have had in view the education of the undergraduates more than the exten- sion of the library ; is that what you mean ? — Partly that, and I also refer to what I have sometimes heard maintained and urged against the extension of the university library system on a large scale. 5474. That is, in substance, that the reformers in their jdans have not, in your opinion, paid sufficient attention to the importance of extending the Bodleian? . — I do not know whether it is necessary that I should repeat the statistics with regard to the amount of money spent upon the library of the British Museum, and the amount of money sj)ent in various provincial libraries, but I may point out that for the Birmingham Library there is annually raised from the rates 7,000/. a year, while for the Liverpool Library there is raised as much as 11,000/. a year. 5475. Those are recent institutions are they not? — Those are institutions which are now supported from tlie local rates under Mr. Ewart’s Act. 5476. And therefore of course they would require a lai ge fund to form the library originally, and not merely to increase it after it had been formed ? — Yes, but I think one or two of those libraries M ere i'ormed upon the basis of other libraries; they were not entirely newly-formed institutions. 5477. {3Ir. Bernard.) Y’ou would have to consider also whether some part of that charge was not for the repayment of a capital sum expended, and unless we knoM" the circumstances, we could hardly make a fair comparison ? — I have the statistics of the Liverpool Library, which give the various items. The Liver- pool Library this year propose to spend 22,000/. iq>on their library, one half of which sum is made up by a grant from the Corporation. This additional sum is no doubt for capital and building charges. 5478. And there may be, besides that, new capital expended ? — I believe that accounts for one 11,000/., but the other 11,000/. is described as being the actual revenue. In the debate which took place in the House of Commons last year upon the metropolitan libraries and museums maintained by the nation, the average estimate appeared to be 400,000/. a year, and more than one speaker urged that the metropolitan libraries and museums M’ere practically only for the benefit of London. 5479. ( Chairman.) That includes, I suppose, museums of every description, antiquities and natural history as well as objects of art, and so on ? — Yes, it includes national museums in London of every description. 5480. Does it include the National Gallery? — Yes. At the British Museum a sum of between 60,000/. and 65,000/. is spent every year on the Reading Room and Library alone; of this sum about 13,000/. is expended upon the purchase of books and MSS., and about 9,000/. on binding. The British Museum, moreover, has certain advantages over the Bodleian in connexion with the acquisition of books, in not having to make a special requisition for every book. The Cambridge University librarian reported to the Commissioners of 1852 that, in consequence of this disadvantage the university libraries were under as compared M’ith the British Museum, valualde publica- tions occasionally escaped their notice. The British Museum obtains free of charge all publications within the United Kingdom, M'ithout a special requisition, whereas the university libraries are compelled to make a special requisition for each book, under the Copy- right Act. 5481. That is to say, the law requires in the one case the publisher spontaneously to send a copy, and in the other case only if he is asked ? — Yes, only in that case. It has been urged that this M^ould he an injury to authors, and also tliat the present system affects them injuriously ; but Mr. Power, the Cambridge University librarian, urged in the evidence from which I have quoted, that it could be no injury to authors if the university libraries were put on the same footing as the Museum iu this respect, it being M'ell known that booksellers in making their agreements with the authors invariably take into account the full number of copies that may be claimed under the Copyright Act, just in the same manner as they would do if such copies M'ere invariably deli\ered at Stationers Hall without any demand. The Cambridge Com- missioners at that time confirmed this statement, and added that if the public library ofthe University Mas designed to be made like the British Museum, a per- manent record of national literature, it should not only be seemed in the possession of all books that are issued from the press, but should be furnished with adequate funds for their preservation. The view then of the Cambridge Commissioners appeared to l)e that the university library of Cambridge was a national lilirary, and should be supported by the nation on the footing of a national institution. As to the needs of the Bodleian, the statements and reports of the Uni- versity Council arc, I believe, before the Commission. I will not, therefore, dwell upon those needs in detail, beyond suggesting that the reports were more pro- Ixibly drawn up with a view as to what w'as likely to be obtained from the university than as to wdiat Mould be required if the university library system should be developed on the comprehensive scale M’hich I have suggested in various publications. A main feature of my proposal is that the mLoIc of the university library system, including the Taylor Institution, the phy.sical science library, the botanical library, and other special UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. libraries slioiild be under one management and general control. 5482. Do you mean all the college libraries ? — Any college library of a distinctly public character. 5488. What do you mean by a distinctly public character ? — I refer now to the one college which has distinctly made the maintenance of its library as a public instituton its one chief feature. I refer to All Souls’, and in such a case as that, for instance, I would, for the sake of the library itself, as well as for the benefit of the university, put it under the control of the university curators. 5584. {Mr. Bernard.) That library is thrown open only by a regulation of the college itself, is it not ? — Yes ; by a regulation of the college itself as advertised in the University Calendar. 5485. Do not you think that that regulation was a very useful one to the university ? — Most certainly. 5486. Do you think that it would be an induce- ment to colleges generally to adopt such a useful regulation if the consequence followed that the management of their own libraries was to be trans- ferred from them to the Bodleian ? — I think that it would be an inducement to any college to take a similar step if it was thought that it would conduce to the benefit of the university. The Commission of 1850 suggested that by co-operation between the uni- versity and college libraries their resources might be expended in a manner more conducive to the general interests of learning, so that they might be made to supplement rather than repeat the Bodleian. But most colleges maintain their libraries for the benefit of their own students in the first instance. There is only one college, so far as I know, that maintains its library chiefly for the benefit of the university. 5487. {Chairman.) And that is a college which has no students of its own ? — Precisely so. The esti- mates upon which my proposals are based proceed on the supposition that the university library system will be developed in a really comprehensive manner. But the 20,000/. a year includes the present revenues of the Bodleian. The Bodleian, at the present mo- ment, has 3,000/. a year, besides the sum of between 3,000/. and 4,000/. annually granted from the uni- versity chest, which might be made available for the general purposes of the university if the funds of the Bodleian were supplied from any one college. Amongst other things which are required for the Bodleian are greater space for building, better arrangements against the risk of fire, more reading rooms, greater space for the arrangement of the books, which are increasing at the rate of nearly 6,000 volumes each year, and more accommodation for their localisation. 5488. What do you mean by “ localisation ” as dis- tinct from arrangement ? — In particular subjects where there might be no room in the actual building of the Bodleian for their clear and classified arrangement, it might be desirable to build sej>arate departments, or to make use of separate buildings, s.uch as the Taylor Institution, the new museum, and the All Souls’ Law Library. This localisation and classification of sub- jects according to particular departments of knowledge is an important element in the efficiency of a com- plete library system. Amidst a variety of testimony in corroboration of this view, I may be permitted to refer to that of Sir PI. Bishop given to the University Commission of 1850 ; “ Amongst other causes for the “ advancement of the study of music, I know of none “ other more important, more worthy to be seriously “ considered, than the establishment of a distinct “ library of music, which, from its completeness and ’* classification, should comprise a j)erfect history of “ the progress of the musical art.” — (P. 226, Evi- dence.) Professor Donkin, before- the same Commis- sion, advocated that keeping of books of a particular class together, and that all persons wishing to consult them should be allowed to have free access to the place where they were kept. “ To those who are “ engaged in search for any particular information it “ is a serious hindrance to be required to specify a “ particular volume out of series of 30 or 40.” And BoO to (piote from my own pampldet on the All Souls’ Library, “ No one in London wishing to consult many “ law books would ever resort for that purpose to the “ British Museum, although he might be living “ within a stone’s throw, if he had also tlie power to “ use the library at Lincoln’s Inn.” The advantages of classification, I need scarcely say, are in every way^ compatible with those to be derived from tlie one general alphabetical catalogue, which should be so maintained as to form a complete index to the whole university library system, including the libraries of the various colleges. Amongst other things which are desirable the staff of the Bodleian should have a local centre in close proximity to the Bodleian. The head librarian should be an important university officer, having the privileges of the head of a college. If the Bodleian Library staff was localised in any particular college a Professor of Literature or of Bibliography might be specially attached to the institution. On this subject 1 would refer to a letter in the “ Times” of October 9, 1877, by Mr. Justice Winsor, the head librarian of Harvard University, with reference to my' pro])osals for the union of All Souls’ with the Bodleian, originally published in “ Macmillan ” of February 1876. I instance this rather to show that the par- ticular plan is not of a local character, but is appre- ciated beyond the limits of the university even so far as America. Mr. Justice Winsor writes : “ The op- “ portunity is one, that I am sure, in like circum- “ stances, we should embrace largely in America. It “ is not often it can happen that a great library of “ Bodley’s name and record can so easily be turned “ from a work of comparatively contracted impor- “ tance into a nursery of ideas in library manage- “ ment, and of practical achievements in establishing “ a standard for the profession, and of supplying men “ to the nation who will take reputation and training “ with them to metropolitan and provincial spheres, “ and also, let us hope, bring or impart by example “ to American centres tbe fruits of education in “ bibliothecal matters.” The plan which I think the Commissioners have already before them in the form of a letter from myself to the Vice-Chancellor, as Chairman of the Board of Curators of the Bodleian, published by him for the information of members of convocation, proposes to associate All Souls’ College with the Bodleian Library. That particular college is under exceptional conditions, and, as is admitted on all sides, must be dealt with exceptionally, but apart, however, from this case, it may be doubted whether the college system can be maintained in its former integrity under the altered conditions of col- lege life. A fatal blow was struck at the college system by the abolition of university tests, by the establishment of competition instead of co-oj)tation, and by the infringement of the old rule of celibacy'. The Coenobitic system and common life, the asso- ciation of persons for a common purpose within a college, cannot be restored in its former shape ; the colleges have the alternative before them of becoming purely educational bodies M'ith functions limited to the education of the undergraduates, or of becoming corporate institutions under the control of, and subor- dinate to, the university institutions as opportunity may offer. I do not think the system of prize terminable fellowships, with no other than a bursarial bond between the prize fellow and the college, is likely' to restore the college system. A fellowship in former times signified much more than a money prize ; it uas in the nature of a freehold, and the interests of the corporation were closely bound up with those of ita members. If terminable fellowships are extensively introduced and virtually made university prizes, the examination and election should be partly conducted by the university. The prolongation of the tenure of these fellowships may lead to much abuse in the shape of college offices being given to prize fellows to enable them to I'etain their fellowships. I would have their continuance subject to the special sanction of the university in each case. The establishment of any one faculty in a particular college may, unless accom- Y y 4 LONDON. C. H. Roharts, Es<[., M.A. 20 Feb. 1878. 360 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LONDON. C. II. liubarls. Esq., M.A. 20 Feh. 1878. panied by many precautions tend to the usurpation of the proper functions of the university. If colleges are to direct and govern the studies of the university, in their collegiate or corporate capacity, or even as a body of professors associated together, there would he a great risk of the proper control of the university being more or less set aside. o4'89. You have in view more particularly what has been proposed as to the facility of law ?— Yes. We have had in some measure the localisation of a faculty at Doctors’ Commons, and, I do not think that the results were so successful as to render its repetition desirable, even in London, still less at Oxford. 5490. Was not the localisation of the civilians in Doctors’ Commons practically very much like the congregation of common law barristers in the Temple and of chancery barristers in Lincoln's Inn? — There was this difference, that Doctors’ Commons had certain jnivileges beyond those of tlie Temple and Lincoln’s Inn, which consist of the admission and discipline of the bar. 5491. I do not recollect what they were, hut they had chambers there, and a common hall, and t'ley had a court in which they principally practised, which formerly used to be there, and a registry; but I do not recollect what privileges they had besides the exclusive practice in that court ? — They had the very important privilege of exclusive practice in that court. 5492. And so barristers have an exclusive privilege of practice, only they are a larger body ^ — I might perhaps have extended my parallel, and included tlie Inns of Court ; but the large number who belong to these Inns, and the small and close corporation of Doctors’ Commons, present these important distinc- tions. In the faculty of law, suggested by Austin in his Lectures on Jurisprudence, it is an essential condition that it should be under the control of the profession. At Oxford a faculty of law would probably be under no control so far as eft'ective criticism might be neces- sary. The number of residents qualified tir criticise a law lecture are very limited. Austin’s words are: “ London possesses peculiar advantages for a law “ faculty. The instructors even, if not practising “ lawyers, would teach under the eye and control of “ practitioners, and lienee would avoid many of the “ errors into which the German teachers of law, “ excellent as they are, naturally fall, in consequence “ of their not coming sufficiently into collision with “ practical men. The realities with which such men “ have to deal are the best correctives of any tendency “ to antiquarian trifling or wild philosophy to which “ men of science might be prone ; in England theory “ would be moulded to practice.” 5493. (J/y. Bernard.) What is the practical con- clusion from those considerations — that law ought not to be taught at Oxford, or that it ought to be taught in a different way from what it is at present? — My con- clusion is that Oxford is not the best place for teach- ing existing law, and that in so far as it is taught it should be by men who, if not engaged in actual prac- tice, have liad ample ])rofessional experience. The resources which I would apply to the teaching of law in Oxford would be of a less amount than what I have heard suggested. The sum of 4,000/. or 5,000/. a year is above what is absolutely required, but the resources which some seek to appro]>riate for a law faculty in Oxford are far larger. 5494. {Chairman.) Is not there something to be said in opposition to the view taken in the passage which you have read from Austin ; is it not rather the tendency of jirofessional control to reduce the study of law to that which is merely useful for practice ; he was not likely to advocate that I admit : I cannot clearly understand what professional control would do, unless it be a check upon the theoretical as opjiosed to the practical view of the subject of teaching. I should have thought that professorial lectures might be the best means of teaching the theoretical part of the subject, but not the jiractical ? — The ptofessional criticism which Austin refers to is not only that of one branch of the profession. He may have thought that the theoretical part of law cannot in fact be separated from the jiractical part. In London, an ineffective lecturer would be at once exjiosed, whereas an in- efficient professor of law at Oxforil would scarcely ever be detected. The only effectual guarantee that you can have for the work of a professor of law at Oxford is in the first appointment. 549.5. You think that in the absence of profes- sional criticism a man might be incapable of teaebing jiroperly, and nobody would be able to judge of it? — 1 think so, and there is this further consideration that with regard to the other chief studies of Oxford there has existed for a long period of time tradition, and a large body of established capable critics, who can judge not only the professors, but also the conduct of the examinations. Now at (Jxford, partly from unavoidable causes, the law examinations are con- ducted with no great variation by the same few men who teach. 5496. The tendency of those views is against any attenqit to develop an important law school at Ox- ford, is it not — When the movement for establishing a law school at Oxford commenced, there was but little provision made for it at Oxford, and the Inns of Court had effected little for its systematic study. Since that time there has been a great change in both, these respects. I do not say that there ought not to be a re-adjustment of existing resources, or that there should not be a permanent provision for the teaching of academical law and jurisjirudence, but I would deprecate any attempt at nAalry with the Inns of Court by any means. Some small additional sum may be required, but not by any means the amount of some of the demands which have been made, or to the extent of appropriating a college exclusively for the purpose. In so far as the adaptation of any part of a college is required for law, that can be done in conjunction with the plan for the association of All Souls’ with the Bodleian, without devoting All Souls’ exclusively to this faculty. 5497. You probably are aware that the college, so far as its corporate opinion is concerned, has not adopted the view that it should be devoted entirely to a law faculty ? — I am aware that the claims of modern history have received some consideration. 5498. In a paper which was given to us yesterday, according to my understanding of it, they propose only a very moderate contribution to the faculty of law. I think about 4,000/. a year ; they already con- tribule 3,000/., and the rest of the revenues of the college are to be devoted to other purposes ? — The college contributes 1,500/. to law at the present mo- ment. 5499. What is done with the rest of the 3,000/. ’? — That amount is divided between the Chichele Bro- fessor of Modern History and the Chichele Professor of International Law and Diplomacy ; but I should say that it is by inadvertence that these two specific sums of 1,500/. to the Chichele professors have been paid by the college. 5500. {Mr. Bernard.) Surely not by inadvertence, though possibly by the unforeseen effect of a deliberate act ? — Possibly, but not unforeseen by some. 5501. {Chairman.) What I rather meant to say was that the proiiosal which All iSouls’ has made devotes only a limited part of its revenues to law, and devotes the greater jiart of them to other purposes ?— -The large sum which is still sought to be retained for jirize fellowships as well as the surplus revenues would be to a great extent under the control of the associated professors of law. Practically the result would be to leave the college very much as it is at present, only there would be added the payment of a few more professors to the two now mentioned. These expec- tations were formed from the University Commis- sion of 1854 with regard to All Souls’ as a School of Diplomacy and Modern History. But the result proved scarcely satisfactory, to judge from the report of a committee, signed by the warden in 1878, where it was said that the practical working of the Ordinance which has now had 13 years’ trial, cannot be said to UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 30 1 iiilvc resulted ill any material benefit to tlie study of law and history, or to have added in any degree to the distinetive usctulness ot the eollege as connected with tliat study. Tliis report appears in tlie article to which I have hefoie referred. In that article the development of All Souls’ as an institute of law in suhordination to the Ifodleian occu[)ies a prominent place, and, subject to certain conditions, I am of the same o|)inion, as it Is in no way incompatible with the association of the college and the Bodleian. Two professors of law in All Souls’, and a law library kept up in the same state as the Lincoln’s Inn and the 'I’einple libraries are kept u]), appear to me to he all that is necessary for a law institute at Oxford. O.502. (Sir 31. If'. Bid/e//.) What do you put the expense of keeping up a law library at ? — At the ]ire- sent moment the All Souls’ library is kept up at the rate of about 400/. or ,500/. a year, hut this is not exclusively devoted to law'. If, however, the library is to become an exam[)le of selection and arrangement, and the most perfect public library of jurisprudence and ollicial liierature of its kind, it would require at least 1,000/. a year, hut that would mean considerable structural alterations and many other general improve- ments. .5503. (Chairman.) In order to spend so much money as that, assuming the library once formed, you would include, I suppose, the law books published in all foreign countries ? — All law hooks ot importance. It is essential that if the library system is to be worked with economy so as to enable this law library to have the benefit of the hooks acquired by the university without payment, and with proper management, the All Souls’ library should he under the administration of the university. The existing system of manage- ment of the Bodleian does not appear to me to he ideally the best. I think that you ought to have as supreme over the whole university library system a smaller body, chosen especially for the purpose — a body whose responsibility would he more certain and concentrated than now. .5504. How many curators are there of the Bodleian? — I think there are 13 or 14 of them, hut I am in- formed that a large proportion of these being ex- officio memhei's, many are practically non- attendant. 5505. (31r. Bernard.) I do not think the non- attendance is quite as great as you suppose ? — On this subject I speak from hearsay only. 5506. (Chairman.) You probably are aware that the trustees of the British Museum are quite as numerous ? — I'here are at least 50 men as a rule of great administrative experience ; and I am informed that it only w orks satisfactorily by means of standing committees, with almost full powers. 5507. (Mr. Bernard.) You would desire to have a smaller body of curators than the present number ? — Yes ; a body specially chosen for the work of the Bodleian and a very small proportion of ex-officio members. 5508. (Earl of liedesdale.) And who would devote their time to the work ? — Yes. 5509. (Chairman). The present constitution seems to he that there are eight ex-ofheio curators, holding certain offices in the university, and there are five specially selected on account of their literary qualifi- cations, making 13 altogether ?— That is the number, I believe. 5510. 31. ff\ Bidley.) I understand you to propose that there should he a librarian with assistants, and that the librarian should be the master and not a servant of the institution, whereas now the librarian is the servant of the curators and is under the curators ? — The relations to the Bodleian curators should be the same as they are at present. The union of the Bodleian librarianship w'lth the w'ardenship of All Souls’ College might be carried out without at all altering those relations. In my letter or pamphlet published by the Vice-Chancellor, which 1 have already referred to, the Bodleian librarian, as ex- officio warden of All Souls’ would be at the head of an enlarged staff of sub-librarians, representing the various departmental or special libraries of the univer- LONDON. sity, hut the curators would he external to them and would retain their general authority as the trustees now' do over the head librarian of the British Museum, hut the chief librarian of the British Museum is go Feb. 1878, usually the secretary of the trustees. 5.511. (Chairman.) YMur views upon the question of the Bodleian in connexion with All Souls’ I suppose we may take it are fully explained in that letter ? — Yes, in a compressed form; but there are other obser- vations on the subject, with certain modifications con- tained in the article in “ Macmillan,” to which I have already referred, 5512. (3Ir. Bernard.) I presume you refer to that letter as the latest expression of your views ? — Yes ; hut I should observe that the article appears to ap- prove of a more exclusive adaptation of the college to law than I am now in favour of. In a variety of quarters that portion of the proposals was not so favourably received as those relating to the Bodleian and law library, partly for that reason and partly for other reasons. I would not now lay so much stress on that portion, seeing that all that is necessary can he carried out in subordination to the general plan. 5513. May we take your letter to the curators of the Bodleian as being a statement of your present views upon this matter ? — Y'es, in so far as the concise nature of the letter admits. If the law library is to be kept up in the way which has been suggested, and in the way in which the college have agreed to continue it, and if it is to he further developed, 1 cannot see the advantage in not bringing it into the university system and so enabling it to have all the benefit of the university acquisition of books from the publishers without payment. The development of a legal insti- tute such as I am speaking of is distinct altogether from the teaching of English law in Oxford. It would he more for the benefit of men of letters than for young students. On this subject Sir Fitzjanies Ste- phen says, in the “Nineteenth Century,” “Nothing “ but the rearrangement and condensation of the vast “ masses of matter contained in our law libraries is “ required in order to add to human knowledge what “ would practically he a new' department of the “ highest and most practical interest.” Then he continues : “ The problem of law reform, considered “ in the widest and most permanent sense, is essen- “ tially a literary one.” I therefore advocate the development of the Law Library of All Souls’ as part of the university library system, purely as a literary feature of the university, and not by any means necessarily in conjunction with the teaching of exist- ing law in Oxford. There are many literary people who would prefer to go to O.xford to carry on studies there if they knew that perfect facilities w'ere given. The libraries of the Inns of Court have many students who resort to them only for literary pur- poses, or for those of antiiiuarian and historical law', or for foreign and scientific jurisprudence, or for pur- poses connected with the business of legislation, for collation and reference. At the present moment there is no complete set of American hnv reports in this countiy, not even at the British Museum. I believe that many undergraduates, if the university library svs- tem was made more know'n, more convenient, and more thoroughly developed, would take advantage of the facilities to a much greater extent than they attempt now. Many an undergraduate used to pass through Oxford without being scarcely aware of the exist- ence of the Bodleian, and certainly without setting his foot inside the building. It is different now since the establishment of the reading room in the camera, Imt so little was the Bodleian Library used in former times, that the Llnion Library was, I believe. started solel}' from the desire of the undergraduates to provide facilities for themselves. If the university library system was made more an essential feature of Oxford there would he a large number of people of learning resorting to Oxford entirely and exclusively for literary purposes. This may he an object not specially to he promoted by the university, yet the Q 6223i Z z 862 UNIVERSITY OF OXFOltl) COAIMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LONDON. C. H. Jlobarts, Esq., M.A. 20 Feb. 1878. literary opinion and the educational influence of Oxford could not fail to be increased. The Bodleian should aim at a slight rivalry with the British Museum. Ihe various special departments which the university might establish from the resources, the space, and the learning at its command, would give it a peculiar and in some respects an unrivalled position; and the distance from London is not so great as to prevent people going down there for the purpose exclusively of the literary facilites which Oxford would afford. The resources at the disposal of the university and the colleges could be made available without the university being in any way^ impeded in other work. The particadar proposals winch 1 have suggested in the article or letter before referred to are based upon the ver_v exceptional and very' anomalous condition ot All Souls.' IVithout going into its past history, it is clear that extensive alterations are unavoidable, and that whatever happens with the college, the system of its fellowships must be changed. If those fellow- ships were made of less value with regard to duration of tenure and amount of revenue, there would be a greater tendency to go back or to endeavour to re- store what is really impossible in All Souls’, than if the fellowships to be abolished were established on some general university footing. One reason amongst others, w'hy All Souls’ got into its peculiar condition was on account of the very' small emoluments attached to the fellowships, which made them chiefly sought by men who could afford to overlookthis consideration. 5514. ( Chairman.) You are cognisant of the jrapers which has been put before us by' the college, are you not ? — Yes; the proposals and resolutions, how'- ever, are of an informal character, and not binding on the college. 5515. I see it is proposed that there should be a number of fellow'ships to begin with at a year, or whatever else is the sum, to be held for seven years, or some limited term of years, and then after that the holder to receive 50/. a year. Does the proposal mean that the fellowship is to continue and not become vacant, so that a new election is not to be necessary at the end of seven ymars, when the income sinks to 50/. or does it mean that they are to go under the head of supernumeraries and pensioners, and that a new elec- tion is to take place of a fellow who will receive the higher stipend r — 1 believe it means that the fellow- ships are to continue without re-election. 5516. Then the effect of that would be that after some lapse of time the majority of the fellowships would be fellowships of 50/. ? — I think so. 5517. So that on that ground the suggestion of a reduction of income would have a tendency distinctly' to restore what you describe as the old state of things? — I was not referring only to that, for I think the same effect uould liapjjen if the fellowships were made terminable and the income reduced, in which case it seems to me essential that they should be given away by the university'. I do not mean merely by examiners ap[)ointed by the university, but I would have one exanunei appointed bv some other university'. Moreover as far as jiracticable. I would introduce the prize essay system in feliow ship elections of “ mottoes ” in>tead of the names of the candidates on the papers. Fellowship examinations are now' fre- quently conducted by young men who sit in Judgment over those by whom they have been again and again defeated in the university examinations. Without going into the whole subject of jHize fellowships, 1 would observe as to their alleged utility to enable men to prosecute their studies at the bar, it will be found in practice that most of those w'ho have gone to the bill' alter having obtained their fellowsliijis would have been able to have done so without any such ussisttincG. 5518. {Mr. Bernard.y A yg you speaking now of prize fellowships generally ? — 1 am sjieaking of prize fellowships at All Souls’ iiarticularly. I cannot avoid touching ujion the exceptional condition of this college in connexion w'itli the proposals wliich I have put lorth for the extension of the university library system. This exceptional condition renders the ()|".i;orlunity excc!)tional, and also makes it most desirable that the case shotdd be dealt with exceptionally. I am bound to observe that the opinion of any' temporary majority of the college at the ju esent moment ought not to be allowed to be absolutely conclusive with regard to the future of the college. The absence of the resident life, the want of any common purpose which has so long existed in the college, the fluctuating character of the corporation, and a varmty of other causes, pre- vent its opinion being considered as that of a corporate body' deliberauly deciding to follow well-recognised traditions. The traditions, with the exception of those relating to the absence of undergraduates, have mostly' departed. But even w'ith regard to this question, only a few years ago there was a much larger majority' in the college in favour of the admis- sion of undergraduates than that which now decides against their admission. I do not think this will be the best use to which the college can be put, but it will be unavoidable unless a satisfactory and final settlement is now made. 5519. {Sir M. M'. Ridley.) 1 do not remember there lieing a majority in favour of the admission of undergraduates? — A majority of 16 was the actual majority at that time, as appears in the paper by Pro- fessor Bin rows, now' before you. 5520. 'I here was a majority on that occasion, but iqK)!' a later occasion there was an almost equal division ? — Yes. I do not advocate the admission of undergiaduates, excejit perhaps in the limited manner proposed by Professor Max Muller with regard to the Indian civil service candidates, which would not greatly interfere with the propo.sals as to the Bodleian; but it is clear that many guarantees must be given if the undergraduates are to be efficiently taught. I think that there is no other alternative than this ojten to the college, unless some conqtrehensive and final course is adopted to give the college real and definite duties, and so place it on an intelligible basis. 5521. The statement of Professor Burrows seems to he that 16 fellows signed a paper recommending that step seven years ago, and that soon afterwards, at a general meeting, when the subject w'as brought forward, a divison w'as taken when the numbers were exactly' even ? — I should state that 16 fellows con- stitute the absolute majority of the whole college. It was a less number, I believe, who lately voted for the non-admission of undergraduates. 1 merely wish to indicate that there is little privity between the various generations of fellows, and that no passing majority' can claim to direct the future of the college, even with regard to Ihe college, still less w'ith regard to the university. 5522. (Chairnum.) You may assume that ; because of course the Commission has duties to discharge w'hich they cannot possibly control, and the case can- not be treated upon the footing of the majority having a right to determine wliat is to be the future of the college, although the opinion of the majority may be entitled to great consideration? — At present I do not wish to dwell upon further considerations with respect to the proposed establishment of prize fellowships at this college, but it is impossible to avoid referring to Mr. Neate’s jramphlet of last year, wherein the facts of the fellowship election in 1876 are clearly brought out. 5523. {Mr. Bernard.) I think there is some little inconvenience in the line which your evidence is now taking, because it is entering into jtarticular matters respecting the actual conduct of elections in the college, as to w hich we might probably find your views con- tradicted by other persons w'ho had a share in those elections ; but I understand the drift of your evidence is that a considerable sum might properly be draw'u from All Souls’ for university' purposes, considering the excejrtional conditions under which the college exists, and that the put poses you have mentioned are those to which it might best be applied? — Yes; but my evidence went further than that. 1 wish to indicate, w ithout entering upon matters ol possible controversy, UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : —MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 363 that the college is so exceptional, and is in such an exceptional and anomalous condition that it is not only desirable but almost necessary to have resort to ex- cej)tional treatment ; and that unless such exceptional treatment is resorted to any settlement which is now made can hardly be considered final, or in any way conclusive. 5524. ( CliriintKiii . ) We must now look at this matter simply with reference to the question of university requirements and the proper means of meeting them ; and 1 presume your argument is that a college which does not take j)urt in the education of the university, and of which the members are ])ractically all non- resident, is in an exceptional position, and that we can more easily deal with its revenues than with those of other colleges? — Yes ; that is my argument, and it proceeds a step further. I desire to point out that if is highly desirable for the sake of the college, as well as for the sake of the university, that the problem connected with this college should be finally solved. The present condition of the college affects the uni- versity in a way which 1 thiid< no college in the university ought to do. It is a matter of reproach and common observation. The absence of a resident body removes it almost completly from the effectual criticism of local opinion. When Lord Brougham visited the university, this desolate state of the college made him say to the then warden, “ Y’'our college “ seems to me the only institution that I know with- “ out a purpose.” Tliis remark illustrates how All Souls’ strikes a casual visitor to Oxford. Its apparent purposelessness, its isolation from the life of the uni- versity, its immunity from all academical or corporate duty, are circumstances which alone render it desirable that it should be dealt with comprehensive!}' and effectively, even apart from the need the 1 1 mighte of its resources tor university recjuirenients. As to the actual resources, besides large buildings, and a great site in the centre of Oxford, the available sum will be more than 16,000/. a year, which appears to have been fixed as the limit. I do not think that any proper amount can be fixed unless you take the gross revenue, and in any contribution assigned to tin- Bodleian the surplus should also go to the Bodleian, and the college should not have the surplus at its disposal for the purpose of setting up in imitation an inferior London guild. The actual sum now spent upon domestic expenditure, considering that the actual residents are very few, is far above what is necessary. ,5525. {Mr. Bernard.) When you speak of a Lon- don guild do you mean a company, or what ? — -One of the London City companies. 5526. {Chairmaa.) You mean by that a bod}' which is able to do what it ])leases with its own ? — I mean a corporate body which frequently does what it pleases by the devotion of its corporate funds to purposes of no public utility, or to extravagant living. 5527. Do you mean that it goes to the dinners at All Souls’ ? — I hardly think so much to the actual dinners as to domestic expenditure of a miscellaneous character. 5528. Are we to understand that you think the economical management of the college somewhat wasteful ? — Yes, I should think that with a little economy you might obtain another 1,000/. a year with the greatest ease. 5529. {Sir M. IV. liidlcj/.) You are aware that there is an opposite view to this which might be brought forward, and that this must not be taken as a fact which is undisputed ? — I have with me the college accounts of last year, but perhaps an inc^uiry into them is hardly the object at the present moment, except in order to ascertain the actual sums which are disposable. 5530. {Chairman.) In your opinion something might be saved by economy, and probably that might be said of other colleges? — The sums which have been taken in the various pa[>ers before your Lordship apparently fix 16,000/. a year as the limit o' the sum which the college can ever dispose of for public pur- poses, but I think with management there might be LONDON in some few years a sum more nearly approaching 19.000/. or 20,000/. than 16,000/. There are two C. H. Robartt, considerations in connexion with my proposals to Esq., M.A. which I v> ould reler ; the first relates to their com- patibility with arrangements for rendering the college cha[)el of more utility. The chapel might be thrown open for the benefit of the unattached students, with scarcely any other structural alteration beyond the opening out of it door^vay idready made. Daily ser- vices are kept u[) througbout the academical year for a congregation of the most limited number, and the unattached students might without any inconvenience have the full benefit of them. The second con.-idera- tion refers to the consent ol' the visitor for the associa- tion of the college with the Bodleian. I would suggest that in the event of its being necessary to compensate the visitor for the loss of any powers or privileges the advow.atn property of the college might be used for that purpose. The consent of the visitor is required under the /'.ct for the absolute union of All Souls’ and the Budlein. 5531. The Act says that it is to be with the con- sent of two-thirds of the governing body? — That is for a complete union, but my proposals may be carried out in many other Avays without the consent of two- thirds, and even without the consent of the college at all. 5532. But you are recommending a complete union, are you not ? — Y^es. My remark as to the visitor was made with reference to a complete union. 5533. The Act says that the Commissioners may “ make provision for the complete or partial union of “ two or more colleges, or of a college or colleges, and “ a hall or halls, or of two or more halls, or of a “ college or hall, with any institution in the univer- “ sity, or for the organisation of a combined educa- “ tional system in and for two or more colleges or “ halls, provided application in that behalf is made to “ the Commissioners on the part of each college and “ hall and institution as follows : (\) in the case of a “ college in the University of Oxford, by a resolution “ passed at a general meeting of the governing body “ of the college sjiecially summoned fur this purpose, “ by the votes of not less than two-thirds of the “ number of persons present and voting, and, in case “ of an application for complete union, with the con- “ sent in Avriting of the visitor of the college The two thirds are necessary for either a complete or a partial union, and the visitor’s consent is necessary only for a complete union ? — By other clauses, the partial association of the college with the Bodleian can be carried out by the votes of less than two thirds, although the absolute union of the Bodleian with the college retpiires the consent of the visitor. 5534. {Mr. Bernard.) Are you referring to sub- section 4 of clause 18, which says, “ For empowering “ the college by statute made and passed at a general “ meeting of the governing body of the college spe- “ daily su.mmoned tor this purpose, by the votes of not less than two-thirds of the number of persons present “ and voting, to transfer the library of the college, or “ any portion thereof, to any university library ” ? — I am referring not only to that clause, but also to the other provisions of the Act. 5535. {Chairni'in.) Still a two-thirds majority is recjuired ? — 1 am referring to those provisions of the Act w'hich enable the Commissioners to transfer any part of the property of any college, under whicli might be included the library. 5536. The third sub-section says, “ For assigning a “ portion of the revenues or property of the college, “ as a contribution to the common fund or otherwise, for encouragement ol' instruction in the university “ in any art or science or other branch of learning, “ or for the maintenance and benetit of persons of “ known ability and learning, studying, or making re- “ searches in any art or scien(;e or othei' branch of “ learning in the university”; that seems to be the clau.se to which you refer? — I am aware that such a construction is possible ; but 1 submit that it would Z z 2 LONDON. C. H. Itoharts, Esq., M.A. 20 Feb. 1878. 86-i university of oxford coinimission : — minutes of evidence. not affect the cardinal features of the proposals hy which a working arrangement can he made by tlie Commission, hy tlie appropriation of a large portion of the revenues of the college to the university library system, and hy the union of the warilenshi|) with the Bodleian librarianship. If this were done the scheme would develop itself almost without any further measures, and the required majority would he soon obtained, especially if, as was suggested hy the “ Times ” when this clause was introduced into the Act, “a little gentle pressure was judiciously applied.” But I would urge that the headship of the college being tmited with the librarianship of the Bodleian would ultimately accomplish almost all that was neces- sary. The great error of all other schemes for the reform of All Souls’ is that the question of the head- ship is in no way apj)roaehed. 5.537. It may he a question whether that would not be a partial union of the Bodleian with All Souls’ i' — I should have thought that could be done by the clause enabling the Commissioners to unite any college olHce with any university office. The headshi|) of every college should be given more of the character of a university office, if the headship is to contiue to confer university privileges ; hut with regard to this particular college, where there are no undergraduates to look after, the headship appears to me to be subject to all the strictures which have been made upon fellow- ships generally, and in fact to a much greater extent. The head of a college can, if he chooses, and if he is a man of energy, give the college what direction he likes. W’hatever, then, is done with All Souls’, it seems that the headship must be altered in one form or another, and united with some university office. If that should be the case, the headship might he united with the Bodleian hbrarianship, and thereby provide the head of tlie university library system with an official residence in immediate jn-oximity to the Bodleian, while the college would suffer no injury, the administrative work of the headship being inajrpre- ciable. .5538. (Jutrl of liedcsdalr.) Do you consider that the appointment to the headship of a college and the appointment to the librarianship of the Bodleian should come from the same source ? — Yes. I think that the curators of the Bodleian who appoint to the Bodleian librarianship might well appoint to an office which in fact would, if the scheme were carried out in detail, be simply the head of a college, consisting of the heads of the special or departmental libraries or sub-libraries, a few professors and exceptional fellows. 5539. {^Chairman.) Your idea then is that the ap- pointment to the Bodleian should as soon as matle carry with it ipso facto the wardenship of All Souls’, without any action on the part of All Souls’, just as on the appointment of a man to the Regius Professor- ship of Divinity he immeilintely becomes a canon of Christ Church ? — Yes, and if he ceased to be Bodleian, librarian at the same time he would cease to be warden of All Souls’. I could understand this union of the two offices not being regarded with favour when col- leges were the independent corporations which they used formerly to be, but now when corporate inde- pendence has become so unreal, when the college can only elect under certain strict conditions, and w'.ien surplus funds are no longer at the free disposition of the college, college independence in its old form has practically ceased. 554'0. {Mr. Bernard.) You are aware, perhaps, that in the ojtinion of some eminent persons, such for ex- ample as the INIaster of Balliol, who is an active curator of the Bodleian, the amount of the revenues of All Souls’ which could conveniently go to the Bodleian is very much less than you would put it at, and in fact is a comparatively small part of those revenues? — 1 happen to have with me a letter from the Master of Balliol, written last year, wherein he says, “I think that your plan about All Souls' is the “ best which has been proposed, and not at all “ visionary or unpiactical.” If it were necessary, I could refer to man)' other letters from people of authority, corroborating that view. I do not know whether the Master of Balliol fixed any actual sum as that which the Bodleian might require from All Souls’. I did not know that he was aware of the resources which All Souls’ had at its disposal. 5.541 . We had the advantage of seeing the .Master of Balliol as a curator of the Bodleian ; and his statement to us was that it was a comparatively small part of the revenues of All Souls’ or of any other college, that would be required by the wants of the Bodleian, and indeed when we went into detail with him we found that the additional sum which he thought would be required, was in fact but a small one ? — The addi- tional amount requiied for the Bodleian itself, ex- cluding the headship and the special library, would be only 6,000/. more, and therefore the Master of Balliol might agree with me if on the one hand he regarded only the actual needs of the Bodleian, and on the other hand looked at the gross revenues of the college, which will be 24,000/. in a few years time. It is possible that he had only in contemplation these pressing needs, and did not consider the development of the whole university library system on the scale I have suggested. 5542. Perhaps I may conveniently tell you that what the Master of Balliol said to us was that he thought it desirable to add to the Bodleian re- venue the sum of 1,000/. a year for books, and the sum of 200/. a year for binding, and then to add an additional sub-librarian for the Archajological Museum, but that no increase of the staff was necessary for the permanent work of the library, and that no increase was necessary for the payment of the staff, but he thought that a capital expenditure, which he put at about 3.5,000/., would be necessary for structural alterations, 'fhat, I believe, is a correct statement of what the Master of Balliol said to us, and therefore he would put the contribution trom All Souls’ very much loiver than you would yourself ? — Perhaps I might be allow'ed to ask what was the actual sum which the Master of Balliol says he would re(iuire from All Souls’? 5543. We did not ask him what he would take from All Souls’, but we examined him as a curator of the Bodleian as to what he thought desirable. It is fair to tell you that he expressed approval of your pro- posal to connect All Souls’ with the Bodleian ; he thought it important that the librarian should have a residence near the library, and that he might very well be head of All Souls’ ? — The sums which I have mentioned are based, in the first instance, upon the former reports of the University Council, but I have not to day dwelt upon details, believing the Commis- sion to be in possession of my letter and article before referred to ; but the general estimate is made upon the supposition that the university library system would be administered as a whole, and that all the special libraries and other institutions of the kind in Ox- ford would be associated together under one general management. 5544. Do you mean the Radcliffe library also ? Yes, I meant the Radcliffe library likewise, but I did not, as no doubt the Master of Balliol has done, calcu- late a definite sum for certain specific alterations. I have rather proceeded upon what I conceived mio-ht well be required for a great academic centre like Oxford, with an abundance of resources. 5545. ( Sir M. IV. Bidlep.) 'Then your 20,000/. a year is exclusive of any building, that is to say, sup- posing the system is started with fresh buildings ?-— The 20,000/. would be exclusive of any sum required for fresh buildings not mentioned in the reports I have spoken of; but it covers certain charges which belong properly to capital, and would include various structural alterations already suggested. I would say in conclusion that the ]n'oposals must be considered not only with regard to the whole university library system and the establishment of a particular colleo'e on a satisfactory basis, and not only with reo-a'rd *to what the university actually requires for its own use, ’ UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION :■ IMINUTES OF EVIDENCE. ■3G.) hut likewise with regard to the restriction of the uni- versity to its former influence. The subjoined passage from tlie article I liave referred to affords some illus- tration of this. At the time of Casauhon’s visit to Oxford in 1613, he wrote: “The revenues of the “ colleges maintain about 2,000 students, generally “ of reputable parentage.” This number, notwith- standing the great increase of population and 'vealth, is not very far short of the whole number of graduates and undergraduates now resident. And if a compa- rison he made as to the number of matriculations, it appears from the last date in the Decennial Calendar that in 1870 they were 569, while 170 years pre- viously, the earliest date therein given, they came to as much as 281, although the population of England was at the former period (according to the best esti- mate) hut 6,045,(108, while in 1870 it amounted to 22,457,366. I do not assert that the difliculties of the university amidst rivalry and impediments of various kinds are to he met by the mere provision of extensive libraries and museums, however well supported and organised; hut I submit that the renown and attrac- tions of the university as an association of distin- guished students and scholars from all quarters will he largely increased by the emj)loyment of some of her resources on the comprehensive scale which I have ventured to suggest. The witness withdrew. The following is the letter from Mr. C. II. Roharts, Fellow of All Souls’ College, to the curators of the Bodleian Library, j)rinted by order of the curators for the information of members of convocation, and referred to in his evidence ; — “2, Hare Court, Temple, E.C. “Dear Mu, Vice-Ciiancei.i.ok, October 24, 1877. “ I TAKE the liberty of addressing you in your capacity as Chairman of the Board of Curators of the Bodleian with reference to the re(|uirements of the university library system and the Commission now- sitting in Oxford. “ For many years past I have been endeavouring, as a Fellow of All Souls’ College, to extend and develop its library in connexion with the university library system ; and during the last year or two 1 have published in various forms — in an article in ‘ Mac- millan’s Magazine’ of February 1876, in a letter to the ‘Times,’ IMarch 30, 1877, and in a recent address at the Librarians’ Conference in London — proposals for the development of the university library system on an extensive scale. “ I cannot ask the curators to commit themselves to the positive acceptance of the proposals in detail, but 1 am anxious to be allowed to urge that the plan is of sufficient importance to demand their grave attention and the exercise of their deliberate judgment. And I venture at least to hope that they will record their assent to the extension of the Bodleian and the university library system on the scale suggested. “The proposals and their grounds w-ere in substance as follow’s : — “ 1. That libraries are now, even more than in Bacon’s time, ‘ the most effective works of merit ‘ towards learning;’ and that whether the university is regarded as a literary or as an educational centre, or as a place for the encouragement of original re- search, its main feature should be a libiary system organised and developed on a scale, if not commen- surate with that of the British Museum, at least bearing a favourable comparison with that of the larger provincial towns. “ 2. That, apart from other considerations, the statutory privileges which the Bodleian possesses of obtaining all books published in the United Kingdom free of charge, justify its being regarded as a national institution, to be maintained for the use and benefit of the whole nation as a permanent record of the national literature. “ 3. That, considering that the Bodleian is in some respects the greatest library in the United Kingdom, that more than 60,000/. is annually raised by taxation for the library of the British Museum, and more than 7,000/. from the local rates of more than one provincial town for the support of its library, the endowment of the Bodleian of 3,000/., together with the annual contribution from the university chest of 3,600/. is wholly inadequate to its acknowledged and j)ressirig aciual needs, and bears an insignificant proportion to the wealth and resources available to the university which are not now applied to any academical or educational purpose. “4. That many of the difficulties ordinarily attendimr academical endowments are avoided, where they are employed in removing some of the disadvantages under which poverty labours in severe competition, l)y rendering assistance to all by the increase of literary and scientific facilities, and by the free provision of the means of study and the implements of learnin<>- ; this being a form of endowment I)oth of education and of research less wasteful and less liable to abuse than any other. “ 5. The vast accumulation of literature renders more and more indispensable all (hat machinery of learning and all those artificial aids to be obtained by a scientific and exhaustive system of arrangement, cataloguing, and classification, and, although individual effort or private fortunes however large can with difficulty even attempt what is required in the way of sifting and digesting the enormous mass of material, success is in some degree jtossible to the university with its abundant resources, its powers of combination, its traditions, and its corporate continuity. “ Moreover, tbe university has special opportunities in what has already been partly accomplished, and might be further proceeded with, in the way of localisation of particular departments of knowledge, in separate rooms or in buildings connected with or contiguous to the central library under the same authority and control and forming part of one organi- sation. Peculiar opportunities likewise j)resent them- selves for supplying to the student that li’ghly trained skilled assistance and j)rofessional knowledge, the necessity for which r,o mechanical a[)pliances can supersede, and for promoting a school of library management which, to quote from a letter to the ‘ 'I'imes ’ (Octol)er 9, 1877), liyan American remark- ably qualified to speak on the subject, ‘ by its practical ‘ achievements and by its exanqrle, might impart to ‘ world the fruits of education in biltliothecal matters.’ “ 6. To satisfy the actual urgent needs of the Bodleian for the greater accommodation of books and readers, for repairs, for further protection against liability to fire, and for the increase of the university library staff, demands of large sums have at various times been authoritatively made ; but to develop the university libiary .system, in accordance with the above suggestions, and according to its prospective needs, a far larger expenditure will be required as well as more buildings and greater space. “7. Tbe proposals for .supplying the reejuired re- sources are based, .///-.?(, on the peculiar circum- stances of All Souls’ College, and on the general conviction that some practical application to acade- mical or educational purposes should be made of its large revenues, some use made of the practically empty buildings of tbe college, and some definite aim created for the collegiate body ; second!)/, on tbe affinity which has been constituted between the college and the university library system, by the re- cent establishment and specialisation to the subject of jurisprudence of the magnificent library of (he college as an institution open to the whole university; third!)/, on the fact that the college, occupying more than three acres of ground in one of the best and most central sites of the university, is in immediate proximity to the Bodleian Library and Radcliffe Reading-room; and is, moreover, adjacent to Hertford College, in case that college should remove to another site, and it should be deemed desirable to acquire the space in connexion with the plan for the association of the Bodleian and All Souls’ College. “ 8. By the admission of the principle that the college should be associated with the Bodleian, it Z z 3 T.ONDON. C. II. Roharts, Esq., M.A. 20 Fel). 187a-. 366 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LONDON. C. H. Boharts, Esq , 20 Feb. 1878. Lord F. Ilervey, M.P. does not necessarily follow that the corporate exist- ence of the college should be discontinued, although it is a cardinal feature of the proposals that the Bodleian librarian should be ‘ ex-othcio ’ warden of All Souls’. “ 9. The practical details of the plan are that the annual net revenue of All Souls’, which will amount to nearly 20,000/. after the payment of fixed charges, rates, taxes, insurance, subscriptions, charges for re]>airs, and for the management of the estates, and will become available after the expiration of vested interests, should he expended as follows: — 1,500/. for the mainte)iance of the chapel and the domestic establishment, repairs of college buildings, (lire.; 1,500/. for the warden librarian ; 3,600/. tor six sub- librarian fellows representing various special depart- ments of the university library sr'stem and appointed by the warden librarian, with the approval ot the curators ; 3,600/. for four professors (one of biblio- graphy, one of literature, and two of law), with a tenure limited to 10 jears without power ot renewal ; 1,000/. for three special fellows elected in turns by the college, by the Council of Legal Education, and by the curators, on terms and conditions specified on each occasion ; and rice. That, of course, would no doubt account for any amount of deficit that might appear in the press fund, because, if people seize the ojiportunity, the cost of produciion heing large, to lower the price of the article produced they may render ihemselves liable to very serious financial consequences ; but they also state at the end of their note: “But these are so strictly “ matters of trade that the delegates feel ihemselves “ precluded from entering into details.” Upon that I have to say first of all that the university is not a trading company. 5548. Are you quite sure of that ? — That is not the ])urpose for which it was formed, nor, I should say, the main object for which it at present exists. But if it is so, it is difficult to see why the corporation i)f the chancellor and masters and so on should not have information upon their own trading concerns. Tl (> delegates are only put there for the university, \ et, so iiir as 1 Have been able to imiuire, the informa- tion respecting this trading concern is withheld not including the special library and reading-rooms of the college, amounting to nearly 8,000/. “ 10. 1'he chief duty of the corporate body would be the maintenance of the trust of the college property for the purposes of the university library, but its subordinate purpose would be the development of the particular department or special library of the college. The scheme is not incompatible vvith the curators having a legal position in the college, with certain ju'ivileges and official rooms, nor would it exclude the dedication of the chapel to the use of the unattached students and the appropriation of the hall for university purposes on particular occasions under certain limita- tions and reservations. “ In conclusion, I hope I may be allowed to point out that, although the interest of the university and the nation in the destiny of the college is undoubtedly more permanent and less fluctuating than that of the temporary occupiers of the corporation, there can be no more honourable future for the corporation than to link its fortunes with those of the renowned institution ‘ which makes Oxford known and respected wherever ‘ letters are studied and learning prized.’ I beg you will excuse the length of this letter, and I remain, &c. The Rev. the Vice-Chancellor, C. H. Rorarts.” New' College, Oxford. Fellow of Hertford College, examined. only from the general public, but from wdiat I may call the shareholders in it. 5549. You are aware, are you not, that there are some other persons besides the university interested in the business which is carried on there, or in some branches of it ? — I have been told that there have been other persons interested, but so far as I can gather, their interest has been bought up by the university. 5550. That I think is not completely so ; it is as to some, not as to all ? — If the university have increased their capital in the concern by setting aside part of their yearly income to buy up other interests in the concern, one could understand that their immediate profits w'ould be small — but that is a matter which might he stated. 5551. Cannot you imagine that there may be reasons connected with any business which make it undesir- able to state all the circumstances connected with that business in public, although it may be stated to those who are directly interested in it? — I think that there might be details which should be kept secret, such as the loss on particular transactions. 5552. It would not he expedient to put competitors in the trade in possession of any interior information as to the concern, would it ? — Not any technical infor- mation. 5553. It might possibly be very interesting to the Queen’s jirinters, for example, or to the University of Cambiidge, to have the full accounts of the Univeisity Press before them ; but it is quite clear that no incon- venience would arise from that ? — They would only be exposed to just the same inconvenience, if any, as is the case with railway companies or insurance com- jianies, and sa forth. But what I wash to call attention to is thisj that how'ever wrong the affairs of this press may be going, no one can lay his finger upon the spot and no one can suggest any amendment in the way of carrying on the business, because we cannot find out how the business is carried on. 5554. Do you suppose that the delegates of the press do not give the information which is necessary to the authorities of the university from time to time? — I have not been able to collect that from the autho- rities of the university. I have made iiniuiries at Oxford from jiersons who would be likely to know, but I have never succeeded in finding out anything. 5555. Would it be satisfactory to you to hear, that, although it may not be intended to make it public, we have received fidl information iqion the suLi- UNIVEllSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 367 ject ? — It would be very satisfactory to hear that, and still more satisfactory to hear, that if there is any- thing which required dealing with, the Connnission would not shrink from doing so. 1 mention this because every other matter in which the income of the university was concerned was gone into pretty fully by the Financial Commission, but tliis matter, for some reason or other, was really not inquired into at all; and I think that it was actually stated to the delegates of the press that they were not expected to give much inforination. .5556. (il/?-. Bernard.) You see the object of that Commission was that its information should be pub- lished, and it was part of its duty to do so } — Quite so. I consider that the object of the Financial Commission was this, that we should know exactly what was the prospective income of the university. The moment you saw that a large establishment like the press fund which had formerly brought in very considerable revenues to the university was at the time of that Commission bringing in a small one, or next to nothing, a very considerable question would arise, because that Commission was instituted, and its results were always accepted with a view to larger contri- butions from the colleges to the university for uni- versity purposes. If it could be shown that the university had in prospect a considerable increase of its income, then the argument for appropriating the college revenues would greatly fall to the ground. 5557. {Chairman .) It would probably occur to you that all those considerations have not entirely escaped us ? — I daresay that may be, and 1 hope it would be so, but 1 could not get any attention to it in Parlia- ment, and what escapes Parliament might also escape yon. I do not know how t;.u„ might be, but I thought it might be of sufficient interest and impor- tance, both to the colleges and to the university, to mention it here. Then passing from this (I infer from what you have said that the affair has your attention) 1 wish to say a word about the subject of the terms, and the lengih of time recpiired for taking a degree. That was a matter also on which I endea- voured to obtain an expression of opinion from the House of Commons in conjunction with others, and upon which we were beaten, but beaten by j)rogres- sively declining majorities, until at last we got within four of the Government I should say that on the last occasion it was certainly a remarkable sight to see the members for Liverpool, for Manchester, for Plymouth, and for other great centres of population, rising one after another, and begging the Government to admit the amendment which was proposed, and which had for its object the reduction of the time required for taking a degree, and for the more complete utilisation of the collegiate buildings, the libraries, and the other educational facilities which the university affords. I think I may say that the feeling amongst the mercantile and great trading classes as represented in the House of Commons was unanimously for it, and I have myself known of cases where promising young men have been withdrawn from a university career before completing it in order that they might go into business houses, and in this way, of course, they lost a very valuable part of the university training. 5558. Have you formed a definite idea of the changes which you think (lesiral)le in that respect? — F'ormy own [>art I should think it would be most desirable to increase the period of residence within the year, whether compulsorily or permissively, I should not so very much care, j)rovided that there were facilities given that a larger proportion of each year should be .spent at Oxford. 5559. We have been told that ajjparently without any positive law or regulation for it the Cambridge practice is different from that at Oxford, and that a great deal more time is spent there by a large number of undergraduates in vacations than at Oxford. Do you know whether that is the case ? — 1 am aware of that, because I spent part of two long vacations at Cam- bridge myself ; but there are certain restrictions ])laccd upon residents at Cambridge during the long vacation. 5560. Which you think might be removed with advantage ? — I am not prepared to say that because I did not come to know how the restrictions worked. 1 saw enough to know that not everyone who wished to go there during the long vacation could do so. 1 do not know how any such provision of that kind might work in practice at Oxiord, but it would be a great convenience certainly to a young man whose future life would be spent in business to be able to leave the unive rsity having taken a degree at an earlier age than that which is now usual and after a shorter residence than that which is now possible. At pre- sent I think one may say that you cannot take a degree at Oxford under three years, and in case of honours it is often prolonged to four years. It is not so much the question of honours I think that is con- cerned, but it is the question of the degree. 5561. Is it your idea that if, for example, a young man remained for a certain portion of each long vaca- tion during the first two years, that should count instead of the third year ? — That 1 think would be a possible way of meeting it. I do not feel myself at liberty to pronounce in favour of any precise details. 1 could not express an opinion upon that point. I think that is a matter winch those who are permanently at Oxford would be able to speak to better than I could. I rather come here to express my opinion of the matter in its broader I'eatures, and to state that it would he an advantage to the university if it could attract a greater number of those who are sometimes called the backbone of England. 5o&2. Are you able to tell us what was the exact form in which the question was submitted to the House of Commons ? — It was submitted in different forms at different stages of the Bill. 5563. ( Sir M. IC.Rulleij .) I think, speaking generally, it w'as whether there should be instructions given to the Commissioners under the Act to provide for this, and the point taken was that it had better be left to the discretion of the Commissioners, and not that we should be forced to do it ? — 1 think you would be wrong in saying that it was a question whether instruction should be given to the Commissioners, if you remember the clause was a permissive and em- powering clause. The Commissioners were to be empowered to construct statutes for particular pur- poses, and it was desired to include this purpose amongst them. No doubt, if a vote of the House of Commons (especially alter a division) were taken, it would be more or less in the nature of an instruction, but it was not technically so. 5564. One point taken was that there was power sufficient to do it, and it was not necessary to call in the interference of the Commissioners ? — I hat wais the point which was urged by the Government. We do not want perhaps to enter into the ijuestion, but it is impossible to analyse the motives of tho>e who divided one w'ay or the other. It was urged in the debate that the Commissioners had the power, which they had to do other things which were specifically mentioned. 5565. I think it was urged not that the Commis- sioners had that power, but that the universities had the power and there was no occasion for the inter- ference of the Commissioners to enable the uni- versities or the colleges to increase residence during the long vacation ? — It was no doubt urged that the colleges at any rate had the power to allow their students to reside there during the vacatioji, but the answer to that w'as tolerably obvious. 5565r/. At Cambridge you resided, you say, during the long vacation ; I think the university has nothing to do with residence during the long vacation ? — Not as a university. 5566. There are no university facilities given for it ? — The professors do not lecture in the long vacation. 5567. It is merely a matter of arrangement with the colleges the same as existed with regard to the Easter vacation some time at 0.xford ? — Yes, and Z z 4 LONDON LordF. Hervey, M. P. 20 Feb. 1878. UMVEKSITY OK OXFORD COMMISSION: — JIINUTES OE EVIDENCE. l.UNDON. Lord F. Nerve;/, M.l'. 20 Feb. 1878. 1 believe tliat Halliol has evoTi tried the experiment of allow ing some men to resiile in college during the long vacation. .^5(i8. {ClidirtiiaH.) Are 3011 able to tell us under what particular clause of the Act it was considered that we should have jicwer to deal with that matter? — The matter was raised under many clauses. 1 1 was raised under seetion Hi. Passing on from that point I would advocate the suppressioti of the halls, rr such of tl'.em as remain. Mr. llardy took me to task I'or saying that the halls were the of the uni- versity, but that I am soiry to say as far as my ex]>crience goes is really the case, that is to say there are gravitating to the halls all those elements of idleness or of stupidity or of rowdincss which the colleges feel it necessary to throw olf. oo7(). That applies only to some halls ; because there are some halls whose present tegulations ex- clude those who have been turned out of other colleges ? — One hall has been in the last few y'cai's converted to a better state of things, hut m3' in- formation leads me to suppose with regard to two others that the description which I have given is correct. 5.571. 1 rather think the two halls as to which that would not a]3|)ly are St. Edmund Hall and St. IMary Il.dl, that thp3' do not receive those who have been dismissed from other colleges? — With regard to St. Edmund Hall I do not know whether you will fiiul that that is quite the case, hut I have nothing to say against St. Mary Hall. 5572. But you doubt it in the case of St. Edmund Hall ? — I certainly' remember to have heard statements to the contrary'. 5.573. {Mr. Bernard.^ However, we have had the advantage of seeing both the principal of St. Edmund Hall and (f St. Mary Hall, and we have had some evidence from them as to the present management of those tw'o hall.s, but as the management of a hall is dependent on ilie will of the principal you may naturally perhaps say that an evil which has occurred at one time might possibly occur at another, even in the case of those now well-governed halls ? — Pre- cisely so. The Commissioners no doubt have had evi- denceon tlic‘i)oint from those who have the management of the halls. I do not think that the princij)als of the halls, generally speaking, have any great admiration of tin; institutions that they preside over, and I am strongly of cpinion that they are not a valuable part of the economy' of the university'. 557‘t. ( Clidir/naii.) It has also been suggested to us that it might be exi>edient to retain some of them in connexion w ith colleges as St. Edmund Hall is now connected with Queen’s, and to use them for students whose circumstances might make it desirable that they should be under a more economical discipline than those in the geneial body of a college, luive you anything to say' upon that idea? — Upon that I should say that assuming that the economical object could be carried out, which I do not feel very clear about, still it would have the effect of more or less (tasting a social stigma upon those who were sent there. When I was at Eton I remember the difference that there was between a colleger and an oppidan. It had to some extent l)(!cn lessened even then, but still there was a very important difference between the two. 5575. Although that is perfectly true, yet at all times, I presume, there were many persons to whom it was a great object to get for their sons the position of colleger? — That is true, because they had at the time I am speaking of almost a certainty of a King’s scholarship to look fonvard to. 5576. And so with regard to anyihing which could he devised of a practical character fur diminishing the expense of students at our universities, there would be many parents, probably, to w'hom it would be a great object to have the benefit of such an arrangement? — I do not see that it leads to anything, as in the case of King’.s scholars at Eton. 5577. May we not assume that a university educa- tion itself is of value as an introduction to their future ])rofessions,and poor persons, of course, wish to get it as cheap asj)ossible — I do not (piile know how far it is intended to carry the idea, whether it is proposed that they should have the rights of members of Queen’s College and be members of (hiecn’s College in all but their local situation. 5578. I rather think that is the idea — at least it is distinctly the idea as to St. Mary Hall, because there lias been a definite proposal, if I am not mis- taken, from Oriel College that there should be a union of the two, and then, of course, they would he members of Oriel, but they would be lodged in the Hall, and would he under di^tinct domesiic discipline? — I apprehend that it w'ould be discipline which would be connected with the college. 5579. It might be economically distinct, so that they could live cheaper than under the general college regulations? — After all, the difference between living in college and living in an institution of that kind, so far as regards economy, really depends, to my mind, gene- rally speaking, uj)on the expenses which a man allows himself. The difference in the cost of living in a college and in a hall is small compared with that betw'een the expenses of a thrifty man compared with those of a self-indulgent man or a man who does not trouble himself about the matter. 5580. Do not you think that the habits and associations of a college may have a considerable tendency to promote or to counteract that thrift, according to the character of the college ? — No doubt that is the case with colleges, and the question would at once arise whether the association of a hall w'ith the collese which it happened to be situated next to would be likely to l)ro(lnce thrift in its members. I think there is no doubt w hatever that if a man w'ants to come to Oxford to take a degree cheaply the best thing he can do is to become an unattached student. And upon that point I would say this, that so much am I convinced of it that I .should hope the Commissioners will be able to do something in the way of pecuniary encouragement to unattached students in their capacity as such, and not merely by^ offering unattached students bursarships or scholarships, and so on in colleges, for the very reason that the moment a man becomes a member of a collepointed for life, the Readers should be annual only, with the power of re-appoint- ment if convenient. The same subject need not always be continued, but a fresh Reader appointed for any subject that excites public attention at the moment, such as Egyptian obelisks have done in 1877, and this would lead naturally to Egyptian Architecture. Greek Architecture and the excavations would be another subject. Roman Architecture and its connexion with its history, another. Mediaeval Architecture another, and a very important one; most young men begin to study arclneology in the old churches. The history of sculpture and of painting is also necessary. The Professor might very well be keeper of the Ashmolean Museum of Antiquities also, and, besides a sufficient income to live upon, he should have a further UNIVEll«ITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION : — SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. S77 sum at his disposal for archscological objects, to pur- chase objects for the Museum when first found, also to make a donation occasionally to preserve some object of historical interest from demolition. The university announced when the new museum in the parks was built that this was to be for natural science o;////, that is for the works of (iod, and the Ashmolean Museum would be for arclueology and history, the works of the hands of man. This distinction has not been adhered to, wdiich is to be re>>retted. A Me- di.eval Museum also is very desirable, leaving the Ashmolean for aiKiient and classical antiquities. There is a medieval house in the centre of Oxford of the time of Richard II., which might be put into thorough repair and fitted up for the purpose at half the cost for which a new one could be built, and it is admirably calculated for the purpose, having on the first floor a long gallery with windows all along one side of it. This house is the property of St. Michael’s parish, and will shortly be for sale, the leases being nearly expired. It was originally a chantry-priests' house, and just opposite the church. This ju'operty was taken away from the parish in the time of Henry VIII. when the chantry was suppressed, and given back to it under Elizabeth for the repair of the fabric of the church. The rent might still be used for this purpose, or the interest of the money, if it should be purchased. No. 8. Exeter College, SiH, January 2S, 1878. I .VSK to be allowed to lay before the Commis- sioners one or two observations supplementary to the evidence which 1 gave to them in October last. (1.) To illustrate the effect of the small existing provision in the w'ay of fellowships and otherwise in the department of Law. From time to time during the last two years I have been consulted, in regard to his legal studies, by a scholar of one of the colleges in which I am Law Lecturer. This young man holds a Tancred Law Scholarship, and being destined for the legal profession, had intended to devote the year which he would have after going out in classical honours to preparing himself for the Honour School of Jurisprudence. He has just obtained a first class in the Final Clas- sical School, having already obtained a similar class at moderations. He now tells me that he is obliged to relinquish the intention to offer himself in the Honour Law School, and to choose that of History, the former subject affording no prospect of a fellowship. He will thus lose a year, which, had any law fellowships been open to competition, would, with the utmost advantage to him, have been bestowed upon the mastery of the principles of jurisprudence, and the acquisition of some knowledge of legal history, pieliminary to the inevitably technical work of chambers. (2.) An observation of the Chairm n of the C’om- mission upon the subject of research in this depart- ment, to which my reply was, I think, inadequate, leads me to say that by “ research,” in the remark I ventured to offer, I intended to indicate study pro- secuted otherwise than with direct reference to pro- fessional advancement and practice. Such study, evidenced by results in a scientific legal litei’ature, is, it will probably be admitted, in this country extremely rare. Whilst treatises of the highest value upon every branch of practical law are abundant, hardly a work of a scientific or historical character in this depart- ment issues from the press which is not inspired by, if it is not a mere rechauffe of, the labours of some French or German jurist. Doubtless the vastly greater practical importance of the study of Roman Law in Continental Europe may have originally given an impetus to scientific and historical legal study there, wltich was wanting in Q 6223. this country ; but it is to the existence of a body of lawyers, such as the professoriate in France and Ger- many, detached from the mass of practitioners, that the great development of such study has been owing. In this country the mere nucleus of such a body has yet to be formed. My observation upon the subject of “ research ” in this field was then made with a view to suggest that beyond the requirements of the university for the teaching of law, a matter of still wider interest, the formation of a school of students of law in the highest sense, deserved the consideration of the Commis- sioners. (3.) In regard to additions to the existing staff of professors and other teachers, I am disposed to with- draw my suggestion for an additional Professor of In- ternational Law ; substituting for it that for a reader in the subject. I think, however, that the most pressing need is in the department of jurisprudence and of Roman law, more particularly in the latter subject. (L) Upon the subject of the obligation of residence in the case of university teachers, and the power to rela.x it, I think that most, if not all, of the evils attending the reservation of such a [lower might be escaped by vesting the authority in a body different i'rom that of the electors to the office. I think that the power, which I would certainly retain, might with advantage here be lodged in the hands of the Vice-Chancellor and proctors, to be exercised subject to the approval of congregation. I am, &c. To the Secretary to the John C. Wilson. Oxford University Commissioners. No. 9. Ricpout of a Committee of Visitors of the University Ouservatory. Adopted by the visitors, February 8, 1878. Having regard to what they consider to be the primary and fundamental purpose of the University Observatory, viz., to provide instruction for university students in the various branches of practical astro- nomy ; and that, this main object being secured, it was further intended to provide the professor with the means of extending astronomical science by original observations and otherwise, your committee are of opinion that to make the institution perfectly efficient for all the purposes which have been contem- plated, the following additions to the already existing instruments are necessary, and that an increase is retiuired in the annual income, so that the observatory may be kept up in an elficient state both as to the personal staff and as to the instruments and their necessary appliances. A. Instruments and Appliances. I. A moderate-sized transit-circle, with a telescope of not more than 6 inches aperture, provided with the best modern appliances. II. A sidereal clock; and electrical connexion of the present clock with the driving gear of the Grubb refractor and the De la Rue reflector. HI. Additions and improvements to the two exist- ing spectroscopes. IV. Two sextants, and their necessary acces.sories. V. A small lathe, with its necessary tools. Your committee, considering the class ot persons for whose instruction the observatory is intended, are also of opinion that it is desirable to provide means for taking observations in the open air. Ihe flat roof over the new lecture room is well adapted as a site for the necessary instruments. Rut the com- mittee, being informed by the Professor of Astronomy that it is his generous intention to request the visitors to accept from him as a present the instruments which are sufficient for this purpose, do not find it necessary to suggest a grant from any other source. 3 B 378 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — SUPPLEMKNTARY EVMDENCE. No additional bnildiiigs will be re(iuired ; but as the corridor in which the transit-circle and other instruments will be placed is not water-tight, and is therefore in its present state unfit for the reception of costly and delicate instruments, some outlay will be required on the repair of the roof and alteration of the shutters. Your committee are further of opinion that an out- lay of, ])robably, 200/. should be made in the purchase of the cliief astronomical books wliich are indispen- sable for the ordinary routine work of an observa- tory. The total cost of the foregoing alterations and addi- tions is estimated as follows : — £ s. d. Transit-circle - - 525 0 0 Erection of the same - - 60 0 0 Sidereal clock - 60 0 0 Electrical attachments - 25 0 0 Spectroscopes - - 35 0 0 Sextants 45 0 0 Lathe - - - - 20 0 0 Repairs to roof (say) - - 250 0 0 Books - 200 0 0 £1,220 0 0 B. Annual Expenditure. The annual sum at present assigned for maintaining the observatory is 400/., until the end of 1879. But, inasmuch as (1) the salary of the first assistant, now 220/. per annum, increases by an annual addition of 20/. up to 300/. ; (2) the salary of the photographic assistant is, up to the end of 1878, paid by Mr. De La Rue; (3) there is no provision made for maintenance and repairs of instruments, or for the purchase annually of ahsolutely necessary books, your com- mittee are of opinion that an annual sum of not less than 710/. will be required for the ultimate expen- diture on the observatory, as shown in the following table: — £ s. d. First assistant (maximum) 300 0 0 Second and photographic 150 0 0 (maximum). Skilled attendant 80 0 0 Library and binding 30 0 0 Maintenance of instruments 30 0 0 Photography - - - 35 0 0 Coal, water, gas 0 0 Sundries (say) 50 0 0 £710 0 0 C. Your committee are also of opinion that, for the encouragement and furtherance of astronomical study, there should be established some astronomical stu- dentships, to which should he annexed the condition of a certain prescribed amount of work in practical astronomy to be done at the observatory under the direction of the professor. No. 10. Statement by the Curators of the University Chest, in reply to Inquiries contained in Rev. T. Verb Bayne’s Letter of November 9, 1877. I. As to the accommodation (if any) available for the purpose of jn-ofessors’ lectures provided in the plans for the new examination schools, which are now being carried out. No instructions appear to have been given to the architect to have regard, in ]ireparing his designs, to the jiossibility of the building being employed for other uses than for that for which it is primarily in- tended. The actual accommodation which will, for whatever purpose, be afforded is as follows : — There are on the ground floor and first floor 10 rooms of various sizes, the area of the largest being about 1,050 square feet, and of the smallest about 750 square feet. There are also on the first floor three large halls, two containing an area of over 5,000 square feet, and the third of over 3,000 square feet. Allowing 6 square feet of area to each individual, the smallest of these rooms would accommodate an audience of about 120, while the large halls would afford room for from oOO to 800 persons. This calcu- lation supposes that the lectures would be of a non- experimental character, so that each student would only require a seat and a ledge on which to rest a note book. There are also on the two floors not fewer than six smaller rooms intended as private rooms for ex- aminers, which might be used by professors instruct- ing small classes in special subjects. The extent to which this accommodatian will be available for professors’ lectures depends entirely upon the extent to which the l)uilding is required for its primary purpose of Examination Schools. Under the present system the public examinations of the university occupy nearly one half of two (the Easter and Michaelmas terms) out of the three terms into which the academical year is divided. The existing accommodation only allows of these examina- tions being got through under much pressure, and at considerable inconvenience both to examiners and examinees, and it may be confidently predicted that the whole of the accommodation to he afforded by the new building will not be more than sufficient to satisfy the requirements of the university in this respect. Examinations for scholarships and prizes are held in the latter half of Hilary term, and in the begin- ning of the long vacation. These examinations are not carried on simultaneously, and one or two rooms of moderate size are all the accommodation that need be assigned to them. Assuming, then, that no change is made in the time of holding examinations, it may be taken that the new schools will be available for other than examination purposes during the first half of Michaelmas term, the whole of Hilary term, and the first half of Easter term. II. As to the question whether, in the case of such provision being insufficient. It might not, in the opinion of the Curators, be convenient to introduce such modifications into the plans as would meet the re- quirements of the university in this respect. With reference to this inquiry the Curators would remark that they as a board are in no way responsible for the instructions on which the architect prepared the designs for the new Examination Schools, or for the selection of those designs. Their function in the matter is limited to seeing that the building is erected in accordance with plans which have been submitted to and approved by Convocation. For this purpose contracts for the entire work have been entered into, and rapid progress is being made with the building. By order of the Curators of the University Chest. W. B. Gamlen, 16th February 1878. Secretary. No. 11. Incorporated Law Society, U.K., Chancery Lane, W.C., Gentlemen, 13th February 1878. I AM requested by the Council of the Incor- porated Law Society, of which I have the honour to be President, to ask you to be good enough to bring to the notice of the Commission the great desire of the Council that as much encouragement as is practicable should be given to gentlemen intending to become solicitors, in order to induce them to avail themselves of the advantages of a university education. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. 379 Tlie Council have observed witli great satisfaction that for some years j)ast tlie number of university graduates entering tlie solicitor branch of the legal jirofession has been steadily increasing (I may remark that during the last year 65 university graduates pre- sented themselves for examination preparatory to their admission as solicitors,) and the Council believe that this number would be still further increased if additional facilities and encouragement he offered by the universities for the study of the law, though I desire to be understood that in expressing this belief the Council fully recognise the high standard of the present Schools of Jurisprudence at the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. In furtherance of these views I am requested by the Council to express their hope that the Commissioners will give their favourable consideration to the claims of the sciences of .Jurisprudence and Law to a pro- portion of any new scholarships, exhibitions, or prizes, which it may be the intention of the Commissioners to found. I have, &c. The Secretaries of the Euwd. F. Burton, University of Oxford Commission. Fresident. No. 12. Incorporated Law Society, U.K., Chancery Lane, W.C., Sjr, - February 28, 1878. I AM requested by the Council to thank you for your letter to the President of the 20th instant. At a meeting of the Council held on the 22nd instant, I was desired to inform you that, in the last Session of Parliament a petition was presented by this Society to the House of Commons when the University Bill was pending in that House, having for its object the abridging of the time required for obtaining a Bachelor of Arts degree, so that young men desirous of becoming solicitors might have increased facilities for availing themselves of the advantage afforded by university education. The Council direct me to forward you the accom- panying copy of the petition above referred to, and to ask you to be good enough to inform the Commission that the Council, at the present time, fully adhere to the views they have expressed therein. I am, &c., E. \y. Williamson, Thos. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretary. University of Oxford Commission, 5, Craig’s Court, Charing Cross. (Copy.) To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kinsr- dom of Great Britain and Ireland in Parliament assembled. The humble petition of the Incorporated Law Society of the United Kingdom. Sheweth, — That by Section 2 of the Attorneys and Soli- citors Act passed in the 23rd and 24th years of the reign of Her present Majesty, cap. 127, it is enacted that any person who has taken the degree of Bachelor of Arts or of Law in the University of Oxford, Cam- bridge, Dublin, Durham, or London, or in the Queen’s University in Ireland, or the degree of Bachelor of Arts, Master of Arts, Bachelor of Laws or Doctor of Laws in any of the universities of Scotland (none of such degrees being honorary degrees) may be admitted as an attorney and solicitor after having been duly articled for three years only instead of for five years as is required in other cases. That, under the 5th section of the same Act and the General Order of January 1863 made under that sec- tion any persons who before entering into articles to a solicitor had passed the first public examination before moderators at Oxford or the previous examina- tion at Cambridge or the examination in Arts for the second year at Durham or who has passeil in the first division the matriculation examination at the uni- versities of Dublin or London, may be admitted as a solicitor after having been duly articled for four years only instead of for five years as is required in other cases. That the object of legislation in passing the above- mentioned enactments was to entourage parents intending to article their sons to solicitors to give them the henefit of a University education. That your petitioners fully recognise and appreciate the value and importance of a higher education being given to all gentlemen intended to enter the ranks of their branch of the profession of the law, and it was with that view that they sought and obtained legisla- tive sanction to the establishment of an examination in general culture previously to the entering into articles. Your petitioners are therefore most anxious that as much facility as is possible should be given to parents intending to bring up their sons as solicitors to give them the benefit of a university education, for your petitioners are satisfied, that by no means can the pro- fession he elevated to a high standard of honour and intelligence so effectually as by securing the higher education of its members, and for this reason your petitioners are most anxious to promote every measure that shall increase the facility of obtaining university education. That the standard of education among the classes from whom the ranks of all the professions are filled has been much raised within recent years, and it is therefore the more important that solicitors should not be behind other professions in intellectual advance- ment. That as a matter of fact a much greater number of gentlemen intended for the solicitor branch of the profession now receive a university education com- jiared with what was the case even so recently as twenty years since, for whereas then it was not an uncommon circumstance for the candidates at an exa- mination of articled clerks not to include one university man, in the present year, the number of candidates at the examination who are undergraduates of the universities was 65. That notwithstanding that there has been this increase in the number of solicitors who have had the benefit of university education, your petitioners are satisfied that the number migbt be still further largely increased if greater facilities were offered in the shape of lessening the time occupied and the expense in- curred in obtaining a degree, and that numbers of jiarents intending to make their sons solicitors are deterred from sending them to the universities by reason of the length of time they must spend there before obtaining their degree and of the consequent expenses to be incurred. It will be easily understood that this is the case when it is considered that the ranks of solicitors are largely recruited from the families of solicitors, clergymen, and members of the other professions, to whom the cost of maintaining a son at the university for an unnecessary period, and delaying him for the same period from entering into practice is a matter of great moment. That according to the regulations of the universities an undergraduate cannot take his degree as Bachelor of Arts or of Law until after his twelfth term, or three years’ residence. Fle can, however, pass his tw'o first public examinations before the end of his first year of residence, and in that case he must therefore wait two years, until the end of the twelfth term, before he can go up for his degree, and of this two years one half or more is vacation. Your petitioners are of opinion that these two years of residence are far in excess of w hat is absolutely necessary, and that it would be a great advantage to all classes, and to tbe professional classes in particular, if this period were reduced to one year, and the entire term of compulsory residence reduced to two years. That your petitioners believe, that if the compulsory term of residence were reduced to two years a large numher of graduates would avail themselves of the 3 B 2 380 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. change, and take their degree within that time without any cliange in the length of the vacations ; but the Council believe that the present number and length of the vacations at the universities of Oxford and Cambridge are far beyond what is either necessary or beneficial, and that it would not only tend to foster greater habits of diligence and improvement of character among the students, but would reduce the cost of university education if the vacations were shortened and made to be more in unison with the times of vacation and relaxation enjoyed in after life. Your petitioners would therefore suggest that the term of residence at the universities necessary in order to obtain a degree should he reduced to two years. That the length of the vacations should be sbortened, but that, if it should be considered objectionable to reduce the vacations for all purposes, it should be per- mitted to graduates intending to take their degrees in two years to stay up longer at the university during a ))ortion of the time at present assigned to vacation. 'fhat your petitioners believe that a change in the direction above suggested would be a great benefit to the public and would largel}^ extend the benefits of university education to men about to enter the legal and other learned professions, and would 'greatly tend to the elevation of the professions and the advantage of the public. Your Petitioners, therefore, humbly pray that provision may be made in the Bill now hefore your Honourable House for regu- lating the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge for securing the several objects and purposes aforesaid. And your Petitioners will ever pray, &c. 'I’he (hnnmon Seal of the Incorporated T,aw Society was affixed hereto in my presence. E. W. Williamson, Sccretar)'. No. 13. 'I’o the Chairman of the University of Oxford Commissioners. My Lord, March 1.3, 1878. 1 iiAVK the honour to forward herewith for the consideration of the Oxford bhuversity Commissioners a memorial, extensively signed by representatives in the House of Commons, of the commercial and pro- fessional classes, as well as by many members of the universities, and suggesting the expediency of making some provision by which young men may be enabled to take their degree in a shorter space of time than is at present possible. I have, &c. Francis Hervey. March 1878. We, the undersigned, being informed that the Oxford University Commissioners are taking evidence as to the modifications required in the existing univer- sity system, wish to express our strong sense of the advantage which would be derived from a diminution of the period of residence now obligatory upon those who seek to take a degree. We believe that large numhers of young men would thus be enabled to receive the full benefits of an uni- versity education, who, from the necessary claims of business, are now dejtrived of them, and that the university as u ell as the commercial classes would'gain greatly in the result. J. G. Hubbard. W. J. R. Cotton. S. Morley, W. Rathbone. A. J. Mundella. Hugh Birley. C. P. Villiers. George J. Goschen. Ph. Twells. Chailes Freshfield. G. B. Gregory, A. H. Brown. T. H. Sidebottom. Robert Heath. E. A. Eeatham. W. E. Forster. Thomas Chambers. Robert N. Philips, Leonard H. Courtney. George O. Trevelyan. James Clarke Lawrence. Wilfred Lawson. Charles James Monk. J. W. Pease. Samuel Whitbread. Hugh C. E. Childers. John Holms. Ernest Noel. John T. Hibbert. H. M. Havelock. W. E. Baxter. J. D. A. Samuda. Sydney II. Waterlow. James P. Corry. Saul Isaac. J. P. C. Starkie. Sampson S. Lloyd. Edward Hardcastle. Charles F. Hamond. Charles H. Mills. Thomas Charles Baring. George Cubitt. Henry W. Peck. T. K. Sanderson. George Storer. T. W. Boord. Marcus Beresford. T. F. Fremantle. Charles T. Ritchie. P. Phip[)S. J. Torr. Lindsay. Francis Herschell. N. IM. de Rothschild. John Locke. William E. Price. Thomas Brassey. W. C. Cartwright. Joseph Cowen. Charles Seely. Charles H. Wilson. J. Chamberlain. Harcourt Johnstone. C. Howard. William McArthur. John Bright. Alexander Matheson. Jacob Bright. Morgan Lloyd. John Walter. A. D. Hayter. Henry Cowper. Ricliard Davies. Charles Biaice. F. Leveson Gower. J. Stansfeld. G. II. Cavendish. L. L. Dillwyn. Charles H. Hopwood. Thomas B. Potter. D. McLaren. Henry Edwards. John Whitwell. M. Biddulph. Robert Low'e. Colin M. Campbell. Edmond Fitzmauricc. Gabriel Goldney. Robert Kennard. Henry M. Jackson. W. Grantham. George Anderson. II. T. Holland. Charles Cameron. J. J. Colman. P. H. Muntz. J. Simon. G. Shaw-Lefevre. J. D. Hutchinson. William Johnston. Francis Hervey. Charles Dalrymple. Thomas Edwaud Lloyd. F. Perkins. Wentworth B. Beaumont. W. K. Wait. Peter Rylands. S. D. \Yuldy. Andrew' Lusk. Edward Greene. James Maden Holt. John K. Cross. P. Ralli. Samuel 8. Marling. Daniel Taylor. John Lul)bock. Ughtred J. Kay Shuttle- w'orth. Charles C. Cotes. G. Osborne Morgan. E. Collins. Walter H. James. T. D. Acland. E. Hermon. Evelyn Ashley. Thomas Know les. Eslingtou. E. T. Gourlcy. Thomson Hankey. Lewis R. Starkey. ,1. H. Puleston. William Thomas Makins. J. 'f. Agg Gardner. T. Clement Cobbold. Octavius E. Coope. B. B. Hunter Rodwell. Arthur Mills. J. Carpenter Gamier. E. Knatchbull-Hugessen. Charles Forster. J. W. Ellison Macartney. S. Charles Allsopp. J. R. Yorke. J. E. Severne. Baldw'yn Leighton. Egerton Hubbard. John Mulholland. Trevor Lawrence. James Round. S. B. Ruggles Brise. W. U. Heygate. George Elliot. Charles Legard. Henry W. Ripley. W. Bagge. W. Fuller Maitland. Thomas W. Mellor. Abel Smith. IT. Drummond Wolff. Joseph Dodds.- W. Gordon. John H. Kennaw'ay. No. 14. 1, Bedford Row, Dear Sir, March 12, 1878. I AM obliged by your letter of 5th, and am happy to communicate my views on the subject of it, UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COM >riS.SION : — SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. 381 for as much as they are wortli, but I am hound to say in the fir.st instance, that it is many years since I gra- duated at Cambridge ; and, althougli I liave to some extent kept up my acquaintance with the university, my knowledge of it practically is of remote date. Such as it was, however, it has with subsequent con- sideration lead me to a strong conviction that the term of three years, required for a degree, is unnecessarily long, and that combined with the long vacation it is injurious to the undergraduate. I have known many men who were quite competent to take a good degree at the end of their first year, and finding that they had still two years before them, relaxed their exertions in the second, and became demoralised in their third. Again, I find that young men coming into my branch of the legal profession from the university consider that they are entitled to the university vacations or something like them, and are dissatisfied with a month in the summer and a week or two at Christmas. It is, in fact, very difficult to prevent them from claim- ing or taking much more than this, and to keep them steadily at work at periods when they have been accustomed to be relieved from it at the universities. There is also another consideration. A university career must involve considerable expense, say from 200/. to 250/. per annum, and this has often to be met by parents out of capital or savings and not out of income. A parent also expects a son in most cases to be making something for himself at 22 or 23 at least, but a young man can hardly go to the university under 18. Three years for his degree makes him 21, and three years more for his artieles makes him 24 or 25 before he can earn a shilling for himself. 1 quite admit the social advantages of the univer- sities, and the formation there of fi'iendship.s, habits, and modes of thought; but I think that two years are sufficient for the acquisition of these, and certainly that the imposition of another year of residence does not offer sufficient advantages in this respect to balance the evils which 1 have ventured to advert to. 1 can only hope that the latter will have the consideration of the Commissioners, and that they will be met by some reduction in the period required for residence and in the length of the vacations. I have, &c. G. B. Gukgouy. Thomas F. Dallin, Esq., 13, Norham Gardens, Oxford. No. 15. Gentlemen, March 7, 1878. I LEG to submit the following remarks on the subject of Medical Education at Oxford, having been informed by your Secretary, on application to him. that I should be permitted to lay a written statement before you. The two points 1 wish to refer to are (a.) the advis- ability of the establishment of a complete curriculum of medical teaching in Oxford; and (n.) the practi- cability of such a measure. [a.] In support of this measure I would call atten- tion to : — (a.) The benefits that would he yarned by students of medicine individually , from the better opportunities of wider general culture and intellectual intercourse than can be obtained in places wholly devoted to medical study. This advantage to the student of such a many-sided subject as medicine can hardly be over-rated. Such a result, which could not fail to be felt indirectly by .society generally, is well within the scope of university aims. (^.) The impetus likely to be given to the advance- ment of medical science and natural science yenerally. — 0{)portunity for research would offer itself much more readily both to teachers and students than in the London Schools of Medicine, where the antagonistic influences of want of funds for material, and insufficient remuneration of the teachers, coupled with the pressing demands of private [)ractice and the all-prevailing desire to finish the course of study as soon as possible, render research the occupation of but a very small number. The longer time that would probably be thought necessary for obtaining a medical degree in Oxford than a diploma in London, would materially aid in this direction. The co-existence of a complete medical school would be certain to have a highly favourable influence on the progress of bio- logical science ; as it is well known that it is from the ranks of the medical profession that most of those who devote themselves entirely to these subjects have been and are likely to be derived. And the general experience of other countries is, that the study of biology is distinctly fostered by the co-existence of a practical medical school. (7.) The improved status it would give to the medical profession . — The social influences of the university are at present reflected but very scantily by the medical profession. A larger infusion into society of medical men with some university training could scarcely fail to be of mutual advantage to society and the profession. The medical facidty can only assert its proper rank in the university, as one of the higher faculties, by the en- couragement in the university of medical teaching besides merely examining for a degree. (S.) The advantages that the university would, reap from this measure . — -The additional stimulus which would be given to scientific research above alluded to, and the enlarg’d sphere of influence on the country at large through the medical profession, are results which being within the proper functions of a university, would be attained with credit by it. The university would gain also by the greater variety of interests that would arise from the presence of the medical element of study in its midst. This measure, lastly, would tend to the retention in the university of a senior class of students from the oppor- tunities offered them for work, which could not fail to be generally beneficial. [b.] With regard to the practicability of this mea- sure, I would observe, in the first place, that university teaching in the medical as ivell as other faculties is already carried out all over the continent, in accord- ance with what would seem the correct view, that it is the proper function of a university to provide the best education in every faculty and ])rofession. About the resources of Oxford for the teaching of what are called the preliminary medical studies, such as anatomy, physiology, chemistry, &c., there can be no question, but I would remark here that it is unlikely that the first twm subjects would ever be efficiently taught if divorced in place from a complete medical curriculum. The Radcliffe Infirmary is larger than some and no smaller than several London hospitals ; and the population of Oxford is not much less than that of several German university towms owning flourishing medical schools. The population of one or two of these latter is considerably smaller than that of Ox- ford. In my opinion, Oxford w'ould offer a sufficient amount of clinical material for qoor/ teaching to effect the best results. It does not appear that the difficulty of inducing teachers of practical medicine to devote themselves to Oxford is one of any magnitude. The attractions of life in Oxford and fair emoluments would be ample reward to many men of first-rate ability and great experience. It is by no means the men with the largest private practice (.which is obviously antago- nistic to professorial functions) who are the best 3 H 3 382 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. teacliers. Tiie late Professor Hughes Bennett, of Edinburgh, allowed on all hands to have been one of the best and most successful teachers of clinical medicine in Europe, derived most of his income from his professorial fees, not from jn-ivate practice. And it is well known that in London a highly remunerative private practice does as a fact often either force the resignation by the professor of his teaching duties, or entail a great falling off in their performance, by both of which events the students largely suffer. The appended schedule of moneys expended in Oxford annually for examination and teaching in medicine and natural science represents a considerable sum apparently out of proportion to the results which can be shown, when it is borne in mind that now about 25 men graduate iu natural science in the year, and not more than four on on average take a medical degree, these four being probably included in the number of natural science graduates. A redistri- bution of these, with additional funds available from other sources, woidd go far to make up the proper remuneration of the professorial staff necessary for a complete curricidum. On the points of the advisability and practicability of the measure in question, I beg to be allowed to quote as follows, from letters to me on the subject from a few of the leading teachers of medicine, and most highly respected authorities in clinical matters. (i.) E:rtract from a Letter by John Syer Bristowe, M.D. Lond., Senior Physician and Lecturer on Medicine, St. Thomas' Flospital, formerly Examiner in Medicine at f.ondon University, S)-c. Sc. c5’f. “ It seems to me clear that the University of Oxford, which is, or, if it is not ought to be, the head, not only of English, but of European univer- sities, ought to be a chief centre for the cultivation and teaching of medicine and the sciences which are related to medicine. All the great schools of medi- cine abroad and the largest and most successful school ill our own country, namely, Edinburgh, are connected with universities, and the successful cultivation of the medical sciences in them constitutes one of the chief causes of their eminence and success. Why should not Oxford, with its many special advantages, enter into honourable rivalry with other universities in this respect ? Another great reason why Oxford, and I may add Cambridge, should be schools of scientific medicine is the following : — In most foreign university medical schools the emoluments of the pro- fessorial chairs enable distinguished physicians and physicists to devote their whole time to [ihysiological, jiathological, therapeutical, and clinical research, and so to advance these several branches of knowledge in a way that at the present time Englishmen are scarcely able to rival. In London, notwithstanding the many schools, the many clinical advantages they afford, and the distinguished ability of many of the teachers con- nected with them, it is well known that the emolu- ments attaching to the several appointments are so small that those who hold them are forced to look for their reward in medical practice, and hence that scientific work (even the scientific study of practical medicine) is pursued only by comparatively young men at the commencement of their career and is never made the business of a lifetime. Can there be any doubt that many of the best of these young men would gladly accept such appointments as Oxford or C’am- bridge (were they successful schools of medicine) could give them, and (assured of a sufficient income from teaching) devote themselves to the scientific pursuit of their profession. “ In opposition to the above view of the duties of Oxford University, it is argued, I believe, that the small size of the Radcliffe Infirmary precludes the successfid teaching of clinical medicine and surgery. But the Radcliffe Infirmary might be enlarged if necessary, and the pres tnce ‘of a distinguished school and distinguished teachers would soon command an adequate supply of valuable cases. But it is by no means certain that there is any need for the enlarge- ment of the infirmary. Physiology may be taught independently of any hospital, and as regards patho- logy and clinical medicine, it is well known that a couple of hundred beds well used may furnish clinical and pathological material adequate for the purposes of a very large school. It should not be lost sight of that workhouse infirmaries and county lunatic asylums contain between them an amount of material for teaching and scientific investigation which has hitherto been largely neglected. “ I do not altogether dissent from some of the views put forward in I)r. Ord’s letter to the ‘ British MedicalJournal ' (February 9th, 1878). For example, I do not think that Oxford could ever present the clinical advantages which London presents, and I think therefore that even if Oxford >vere a successful medical school, her medical graduates might with advantage supplement this medical education at Oxford by a course of clinical instruction at one of the larger London hospitals, as in fact they do now. But I do not think the existence of this advantage in London should have the effect of preventing Oxford from taking its proper place as one of the great centres of scientific medical education."’ (ii.) Extract from a letter by Samuel Wilks, M.D., F.B.S., Physician and Lecturer on Medicine, Guy's Hospital, formerly Censor, Royal Coll eye of Physicians ; Examiner in Medicine, Royal Cedleye of Suryeons, c^c. ^c. “I see no objection to the University of Oxford undertaking the complete training of the medical stu- dent for his profession. For the scientific teaching the requirements already, I believe, exist ; and as for the study of disease, 1 consider a hospital containing 200 beds affords ample opportunities. “ (1.) The University of Oxford may well regard it as one of its functions to afford a thorough training in medicine. “ (2.) The opportunities of it so doing exist. “ (3.) It is the interest of the profession that as many young men as possible should pass through the portals of a university. The individual advantages to them of the pre- liminary education and social intercourse must add to the general prosperity and welfare of the whole profession.” (iii.) Extract from a Letter by Professor IJster, F.R.S., Kiny's Colley e, T.,ondon, formerly of Edinburyh. “ I should be well pleased to see a complete Medical School established in Oxford. I believe it would tend to elevate the tone and character of medical teaching in England.” Finally, I would submit my opinion that the curriculum of medical education in Oxford should be, in order that the ends above alluded to may be attained, absolutely complete. All attempts at an in- complete course are likely to end, as they have hitherto ended, in failure. Instruction in anatomy and physiology, and some amount of clinical teaching, as recommended, I believe, by the Commission in 1854, has not been instituted, “ and the Cambridge system has borne but insufficient fruit. It would appear that in the teaching of medicine pre-eminently incomplete- ness means inefficiency. It is extremely unlikely that the early part of medical study can be well conducted apart from the influences of the more advanced subjects. I have purposely abstained from suggesting a detailed scheme for the university medical profes- soriate, or discussing the subject of endowments, considering the latter a matter of detail for those specially conversant with it, and wishing only to state some general opinions on the question, with some UN^IVEUSITr OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. 383 answers to tlie more obvious objections tliat have l)een urged against the establishment of a complete Medical School at Oxford. I have, 8cc. Horatio Donkin, M.A., B.M., Oxon ; Senior Assistant Physi- cian to Westminster Hospital ; and Physician to the East London Hospital for Children. Annual Expenditure on TeacliiiKj and Examining in Medicine and Natural Science at Oxford. To examiners for degrees in medicine and preventive medicine Professor of Medicine, Regius - „ „ Clinical - Linacre Professor . . - Fees paid to professor by students Demonstrator of Anatomy Allowance for assistance Professor of Chemistry - - - Demonstrator - - - - Allowance for laboratory expenses Fees paid by students to Professor, not to university chest, about Professor of Botany, about „ Zoology - - . Professor of Experimental Philosophy Fees paid to professor, about - Demonstrator and assistants - £ s. d. 180 0 0 500 0 0 200 0 0 800 0 0 100 0 0 200 0 3 75 0 0 600 0 0 126 0 0 500 0 0 300 0 0 400 0 0 500 0 0 600 0 0 200 0 0 565 0 0 Lee’s Readerships (Ch, Ch.) : — Chemistry . . - - Allowance for laboratory Anatomy - . - . Physics . . . - At Magdalen College : — General lecturer on Physical Science - A fellow lecturer on Physiology Do. with allowance for laboratory A.t Exeter College : — A fellow lecturer on Biology - At Merton College : — Lecturer on Chemistry 500 0 0 500 0 0 500 0 0 500 0 0 200 0 0 400 0 0 300 0 0 480 0 0 150 0 0 At Trinity College : — Millard lecturer on Physics - - 200 0 0 These sums amount in all to nearly 10,000Z. per annum. Letters with regard to the Establishment of a Practical School of Medicine in Oxford from Dr. Bennett, President of the Royal Collegeof Physicians; J. Birkett, Esq., President of the Royal College of Surgeons; Sir William W. Gull, Bart. ; Sir James Paget, Bart. ; and W. Turner, Esq., Professor of Anatomy in the University of Edinburgh. No. 16. - From J. R. Bennett. Esq., D.M., F.R.S., Pres. Roy. Coll. Phys. Sir, 22, Cavendish Square, March 22, 1878. I HAVE given careful consideration to the questions submitted to me, in the communication made to me on behalf of the University of Oxford Commissioners, and beg to offer the following observations in reply : — 1. “Is it desirable that the University of Oxford should attempt to establish a Practical School of Medicine ?” To this I answer, unhesitatingly, in the affirmative. I do not, however, think it desirable that the university should attempt to establish a large school of practical medicine, adapted to the means and requirements of the ordinary medical practitioner. This I do not think could be done with advantage, either to the university or the medical profession. But I feel strongly that both Oxford and Cambridge, as the foremost of our universities, richly endowed and with innumerable and precious advantages, ought to be centres for the cultivation and advancement of every branch of science, and that to omit medical science and not provide for it a complete curriculum of study, is to fail in an important function. Those departments of science which constitute the basis of medicine, whether as a science or an art, could, I believe, be cultivated better at Oxford than in a large city like London. Provision for the cultivation of anatomy, physiology, and pathology, simply as scientific pursuits has long been felt to be a great desideratum in this country. At present they are for the most part pursued as mere stepping-stones to medical rejmtation and practice, by those who are compelled to abandon such studies at a time when their further cultivation would be most fruitful of scientific results. Sufficiently endowed chairs for the cultivation of these departments of medical science, would certainly secure men of the highest distinction, who, as professors devoting their lives to such subjects, would shed lustre on the university and advance the best interests of humanity. Moreover, such jirofessorships would prove centres around which would gather students who are looking themselves to occupy similar positions, and who in the meantime are anxious to devote themselves to the advance- ment of science, irrespective of any view of ultimately practising medicine. It would also, I believe, be of great advantage if medical students who did not intend to qualify for the higher branches of their profession, and who consequently did not pro[)ose to go through a complete university course, could complete their studies in the preliminary scientific subjects at Oxford or Cambridge, or other similar centres, before entering on the more practical and clinical studies in London or elsewhere. But for those who jiropose to take a degree in medicine at O.xford, the curriculum of study in the university should be complete, otherwise the degree suffers in public esti- mation (as I think it has done) as a medical degree, instead of affording to the public the best evidence that the holder thereof is one who has enjoyed the most complete and thorough professional education. As the university already possesses professorships in physics, chemistry, and botany, all that is requisite in addition to the provision already mentioned would appear to be opportunities for clinical study, and professorships of systematic medicine, surgery, and materia inedica. This last I should not consider imperative. For the preliminary clinical studies of the university ample means might be provided by the Radciiffe Infirmary, with 200 beds, irrespective of the aid that might be afforded by other subsidiary institutions, such as lunatic asylums, workhouse infirmary, and dispensaries. A most complete and efficient school of clinical medicine and surgery might thus be provided for the student up to the time at which he would take his M.B, degree. Subsequently it would be desirable that the university arrangements should permit of the student spending at least a year at some of the large metropolitan hospitals, which time should be devoted exclusively to clinical pur- suits. When, subsequent to this, he presents himself for his M.D. degree, the examination should be, not a mere formal one, but a thorough examination, written, oral, and clinical. Having passed through such a course, his degree of M.D. would carry with it the prestige of the university by which it was granted, and would command the highest public estimation. Such a' course need not entail a longer period of study than six years from the time of entering at the university to the taking of the degree of M.D. ; so that assuming that the student enters at 18, he would take his final degree at 24 years of age. If by a stringent entrance examination the possession of a due amount of scholastic education was secured, the present arrangements of the university (with perhaps some slight modification) might be maintained without detri- ment to the student’s general culture, before entering on the study of natural science and without detaining him too long from his more strictly professional studies. 2. I am unable to state exactly what staff of teachers would be required to carry out the scheme which I have briefly and imperfectly sketched. But it would, at all events, be requisite to bave at least one teacher or demon- strator under each chief professor, with whom the student should be in daily communication, whilst pursuing the respective branches of study. Possibly, in addition, there would be required laboratory or other assistants, who might act as private tutors in their sev'eral departments. For in proportion as the chief professors in anatomy, physiology (])roper, as distinct from general biology), pathology, and systematic medicine, were, as I think in the university they should be, men devoted to the scientific development of their several branches, they would have no time to devote to teaching as distinct from their professorial preelections. They, however, should 3 B 4 384 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. have the supervision ami general direction of the whole of their respective dej)artments. Excluding from consideration those subjects which form a part of the general studies of the university, and which are not, therefore exclusively medical, an annual sum of 10,000/. available for the jn’ornotion of medical science would, in my opinion, be ample, su[)plimented as it would be by students’ fees, to ])rovide the necessary expenditure. But in addition, I should hope that funds would be forth- coming from the colleges, or other sources, available for assisting nr rewarding, m the shape of scholarships or other- ^^•ise, students who might desire to devote themselves to original investigation and jmrsue science for its own sake in the genial atmosj)here of the university and under the fostering guidance of its distinguished jirofessors. That by some such scheme as I have ventured to sketch, Oxford might render incalculable service to medical science and at the same time add to her already great and justly merited reputation as a university, I have no doubt. But the views and suggestions herein submitted to the consideration of the Commissioners are offered with all deference and with full appreciation of the ditiiculties surrounding so important a subject. I have. See. Jas. Risdon Beknett, M.l). To Rev. T. Vere Bayne, Secretary to the University of Oxford Commissioners. No. 17. From J. Hirke'I't, Esq., Pres. Roy. Coll. Surg. Eng. Royal College of Surgeons of England, Lincoln’s Inn Fields, W.C., SiK, March 7, 1878. In coinjiliance with the request of the University of Oxford Commissioners, cenveyed to me in your letter of the 22nd ultimo, I beg to append the following remarks as exjiressive of my personal opinion on the question proposed by the Commissioners, viz. : I do not consider that it is desirable that the University of Oxford should attempt to establish a Practical School of Medicine. I reply to queston (1) in the negative, because I regard the “ three years’ course in arts,” required by the university, as offering opjiortunities for the acquisition of a superior education or higher degree of mental culture antecedent to the medical studies. I think it is undesirable that the student should complete his courses of human anatomy and of physiology before quitting the university. The strictly jirofessional studies should be confined to preliminary subjects, such as botany, chemistry, elementary biology, and histology. To these subjects might be added a study of the skeleton and separated bones, an accurate knowledge of which so greatly facilitates his future studies in the dissecting room. During the third year he might with advantage attend clinical instruction in the wards of the Radcliffe Infirmary, in order to exercise and strengthen his powers of observa- tion and to become familiar with the terms employed in describing diseases. Attendance at general courses of lectures on luedicine is undesirable, although he might derive advantage from listening to a short course of lectures on the history and literature of the science. With reference to the number and class of patients in the Radcliffe Infirmary and the nature of their diseases, points especially mentioned in your communication, they should not, in my opinion, be regarded as a bar to the use- fulness of the clinical instruction derivable therefrom. The student has the opportunity of concentrating his attention on a few cases instead of his mind being distracted by a multiplicity, and ])erhaps he may have more opportunity of observing the earlier stages of diseases than the long- standing effects so frequent in the patients crowding the large hospitals. He has a better chance of seeing the curative treatment of early disease, for I have heard students remark in the London hosjvitals that they do not see so much of disease in the earlier stage as they com- monly do after they have commenced to practise on their own account. I have, &c. John Birkett, Rev. T. Vere Bayne. Pres. Roy. Coll. Surg. Eng. No. 18. From Sir William \Y. Gull, Bart. 74, Brook Street, London, Sir, March 20, 1878. I BEG to state, for the information of your Com- missioners, that 1 have much considered the questions projiosed in your letter of February 22nd, 1878. (1.) Is it desirable that the University of Oxford should attempt to establish a Practical School of Medicine ? I am of opinion that such a course would be undesirable, first, because there does not seem to me any public want to be met by such an attempt; secondly, the circumstances are such that the attempt could be only partially successful ; thirdly, the outlay would be out of proportion to the good which could be attained, and fourthly, the advantages to the undergraduates would be doubtful. The large hos|)itals of the metropolis supply full and available opportunities for an extensive and complete study of all the practical parts of medicine. A Medical Sebool at Oxford could be maintained only under what I may term artificial circumstances, since the means for teaching would be limited, and in comparison with those of the large metropolitan hospitals, wanting in variety. There would be, 1 anticipate a difficulty not easily over- come in the way of obtaining teachers of such eminence in some of the jiractical subjects as would ensure the main- tenance of the school in the first rank. In the metropolitan schools, success in practical teaching is largely rewarded by success in practice. This is obviously so in medicine, surgery, gynaecology, ophthalmic and aural surgery. 'I'he same could not obtain in so limited a sphere as Oxford. The examples of the smaller universities and towns in Germany can hardly be cited in disproof, as the conditions of the two countries are very different. In Germany the professor is appointed by the State, and thereby obtains higher public recognition, whilst the expenses of living are much less than in England. As matters now stand the advantages which flow from a medical or surgical ap[)ointment in one of the larger London Schools would therefore tend to limit the choice of the university in res})ect of the most distinguished teachers of the practical subjects who would certainly be retained in the metropolis. Of course there would always be striking exceptions to this as to any other rule, but still as regards the average of the teaching the advantages afforded hy the metropolis would tend to keep it at a comparatively lo.v standard. On the other side much has been said in favour of having Practical Schools of Medicine at the universities, on the ground that the undergraduates in medicine could thereby begin their practical studies at an earlier age. For my own part I am not convinced that there would be any advantage in this. I believe it will be found that the most convenient age for the undergraduate in medicine to commence his practical work would be from 20 to 21 years. No doubt the great mass of medical men who are to enter general piractire must begin and finish their medical studies early m life, but this necessity does not apply to them who look to graduate m medicine and wbo have more time at their dispofal. For such men I believe the university should be a sebool of the preliminary sciences alone, up to the age of 20. It is said that an early acquaintance with the ])i’actical subjects begets “ajiractical instinct” not to be gained when a student enters upon these studies later. 1 do not think this statement can be brought forward as a valid argument. The truth of it is doubtful, and especially so if it means that there is an important advantage in going to jiractical studies at the age of 17 rather than at 20. It would be easy to cite instances of the greatest success in medical practice where the special studies were begun much later than the dates 1 have named ; and further it is to be borne in mind that the preliminary scientific studies aflbrd the best training to the student for dealing with facts. This is abundantly evident in all the departments, whether in molecular physics on the one hapd or in comparative anatomy and physiology on the other. Amongst the incidental ob- jections which lie against the establishment of a Practical School of Medicine at Oxford are further that it might and probably would tend to lower the university teaching in the preliminary sciences to the level of the immediate wants of the undergraduates in medicine, and would divert the student from a thorough and exclusive pursuit of his jneliminary studies, by encouraging him to dabble in ])bysic when he ought to be engaged in the laboratory and dissecting room. Of course if the probability of success- fully establishing and carrying on a school were high, these objections would be less, but they would be damagingly increased if the school were not in the first rank. In that case the weakness of the school could not but affect injuriously the institutions around it. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. 385 The second question, “ What staff of teachers would it be necessary in the first instance to provide, in order that the attempt might be made with a fair prospect of success ?” There would be required : — A regius professor for a systematic course on medicine. A professor of clinical medicine. A professor of gynaecology and diseases of children. A professor of surgery, giving a systematic course on surgery. A professor of clinical surgery. A professor of materia medica and medical juris- prudence. A professor of morbid anatomy and special pathology. To this restricted list may be added : — A professor of ophthalmic surgery. A professor of dental surgery. A professor of aural surgery. A professor of hygiene. A professor of mental diseases, with a clinical depart- ment for each of these, except hygiene. The establishment of an out-patient dejiartment for lying-in women, and for the diseases of children. A similar department for the diseases of the skin. The election of the medical and surgical officers of the infirmary, and the rules for admitting patients would have to be under the control of the university, for there could be no assurance of pro]>er teaching if the appointments were left in the hands of subscribers, nor if the wards were filled with cases admitted by subscribers’ letters. The Commissioners also ask : — If the first question be answered in the negative, viz., that there should be no attempt to establish a Practical “School of Medicine,” “to what extent should the “ student while still at Oxford be encouraged to carry the “ scientific studies preliminary to the professional study of “ medicine?” For example: “Is it desirable that he “ should complete his course of human anatomy and i)hy- “ siology before quitting the university ; and again. Is it “ desirable that he should have, whilst still at Oxford, “ opportunities of commencing the clinical study of disease “ and of attending general courses of lectures on medicine ; “ such clinical studies and courses of lectures being re- “ garded as only preparatory to the more complete and “ systematic instruction which he would afterwards and “ elsewhere receive at a Medical School ?” The student should certainly be encouraged to complete all his preliminary scientific studies except perhaps the course of human anatomy. There are so many points in human anatomy which only come out for the student’s proper consideration after he is engaged in the study of clinical medicine and surgery, that I doubt if human anatomy could be completed apart from the studies proper to a Medical and Surgical School. As to human physiology, I think this subject, like general pathology, might be with great advantage a professorial department at Oxford in which the student might obtain all that could be required on that subject. As to whether it is desirable “ that the student should, “ whilst at Oxford, have opjiortunities of commencing the “ clinical study of disease and of attending general courses “ of lectures on medicine, such clinical study and courses “ of lectures being regarded as only preparatory to the “ more complete and systematic instruction which he “ would afterwards and elsewhere receive at a Medical “ School.” This I believe I bave answered above in saying that I do not think it desirable that the under- graduate sliould be diverted from his preliminary scientific studies by an early attendance on ]>ractical subjects. This is now not only generally admitted but generally recom- mended. Should it be ultimately determined to establish a Medical School at Oxford this restriction of the course of study would have to be observed. I bave said that 20 years of age would be a proper time for a student to commence his practical studies. Any partial diversion of his attention to these matters under the idea of making him early familiar with bedside facts and on the ground of forming in him some peculiar prac- tical faculty would, I am of opinion, be erroneous and would be of doubtful advantage. If, instead of attempting to do unnecessarily and perhaps imperfectly what is and, from favouring circumstances, must be better done elsewhere, the university should con- tinue to use its large means for the advancement and teaching of the sciences, I believe it would more usefully and profoundly influence the study and progress of Medicine throughout the country, than it could by the q 622 . 3 . establishment of a small Practical School. And might I here suggest whether some university extension of scientific teaching could not be made in the interests of the general practitioners of medicine. It is in such a direction at present that the greatest good to medical practice could be effected. This consideration is not new to me. So long ago as 1840 the treasurer of Guy’s Hospital, Mr. Benjamin Harrison, had the matter under discussion, and from his long experience he concluded that it would be a great gain if the teaching of the preliminary scientific subjects which were then and are still but imperfectly taught in the larger medical schools in London, could be removed from them so as to leave those institutions entirely devoted to clinical purposes. Molecular physics (chemistry, heat, light, electricity, magnetism, &c.), botany, zoology, comparative anatomy, human anatomy, biology, jffiysiology, pathology and psychology afford so large and so important fields for cul- tivation in the interests of medicine, that it would be a matter of extreme regret on public grounds if the university relaxed its efforts in these directions by an attem[)t to establish a school of practical medicine. I need not say I do not the least undervalue the importance, of exact practical teaching, but I believe that it will be advanced most successfully by the course I have recommended. If Oxford were the metro])olis, it would naturally follow that the practical teaching of medicine would be in ])rox- imity to the University, but I should still doubt if it should form an integral part of the University curriculum. I know how often it is said that all facts arc, or ought to be, scientific in concejition, and 1 admit that this should be the steady aim of practical teaching. But we are yet very far from that consummation and should admit it though ever striving to unite in one the scientific and the practical. I have, &c. William W. Gull. To Rev. T. Vere Bayne, Secretary, University of Oxford Commission, Christ Cdiurch, Oxford. No. 19. From Sir .Iame,s Paget, Bart. 1, Harewood Place, Hanover Square, W. March 23, 1878. In answering the questions which the University of Oxford Commissioners have done me the honour of submitting to me, I must disclaim all intention of exjiress- ing an opinion as to what may be desirable for O.xford in any other sense than that relating to the good which Oxford may do for the nation by educating members of the medical profession. In this sense, my answer to the first question is, that I do not think it “ desirable that the Llniversity of Oxford “ should attempt to establish a Practical School of Medi- “ cine,” except in so far as such a school is required for the purpose indicated in the third question, the purpose namely, of enabling students to “ commence the clinical study of disease.” Presuming that I may give reasons for this opinion, I add that I believe that, in its relation to medicine, the work in which Oxford may do most good is in providing for the education, not of such as are to be engaged in the ordinary business of the medical profession, for whom a complete and active ])ractical school is of all things the most necessary, but of such as may be made tit for high position and influence in the profession by a much more complete education in the sciences allied with medicine than can be possible for the great majority of medical students. I do not doubt that, by a very large exjienditure on the endowment of professors and other teachers, Oxford might maintain a complete practical school, such as might serve for the general study of medicine and surgery, possibly even or midwifery. But I do not believe that it could maintain a better school than those which, without any endowment, are maintained in London and some of the largest provincial towns. A practical school requires more than professorships, even though these may be filled by persons of much skill and learning. It requires, or at least it is best when it has, a consideralile number of jihysicians and surgeons engaged in active jiractice, living in the con stant discussion of jiractical matters, kept on the alert by competition and having amj)le materials at hand, in a large hospital and in private jiractice, both for their own study and for teaching. I know that one or two men of rare 3 C 3S(3 UNIVEBSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION : — SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. ability and energy may maintain a good ])ractical school with only a small hospital in a small town ; but sucli men are seldom to be found; no system can be based on the probability of finding them and of their not falling into routine; and the probability of finding them will every year decrease in the same ratio with the constant increase in the pecuniary advantages of a practical in comparison with a professorial life. Placed as Oxford is between London and some of the largest towns in England, it seems highly imjirobable that it should draw to itself, unless by a very large expenditure, either physicians or surgeons in sufficient number, or witli sufficient eminence in practical ability, to make a Practical School of Medicine superior or even equal to those of London or some of the largest towns. 'I'he teaching of practical medicine and surgery, and the teaching of the sciences with which they are allied, may not be divorced ; but according to the opportunities for teaching in different places, the one or the other should predominate. In this regard it seems to me that the education offered for students of medicine in Oxford should be rather in contrast than in rivalry with that offered in schools in the great towns. These supply abundantly the means of practical study ; but they do not and, unless with great change of system, they cannot thoroughly educate more than a very few of their students in the less practical, though in the best sense not less useful, portions of the biological sciences. Oxford may educate in these, and thxis contribute very largely to the highest interests and utilitv of the medical profession. O.xford has done great good by tboroughly educating in classical and literary knowledge some who were destined for the practice of medicine. There may have been little in their learning which had any direct practical use, but the mental discipline and exercise required for gaining high honours in the schools gave them such advantage for the studies of their later lives as far more than compensated for their delay in beginning their practical education. Many of them have been and some are among the best practical teachers of their time, and their general culture and uni- versity-associations have given them social rank and influ- ence valuable to the whole profession. Similar high literary education may have even now as great advantages, but I believe that an equally good education in the biological sciences may have many more. Its discipline would be as good, its cultivation of the powers of observation would be far better, the knowledge gained in it would be more directly useful. It is this kind of education which Oxford can give, and, in only too small measure, gives already, and it can add to it the very rare advantage of associating its medical students with those who are engaged in other sciences, in literature or theology. If Oxford will thus, with constantly increasing fullness, educate chiefly in the sciences of medicine, it may leave the chief education in the practice to the schools of London and the large towns. And as it seems certain that nearly every year will increase the range and variety of the more j)ractical studies, so must these jiractical schools give more time and power to practical teaching and less to the teach- ing of the allied sciences. The need of such schools of biological science as Oxford can provide must thus con- stantly increase. But I venture to add that in providing such a school Oxford would do more than give a thorough scientific education to its students. It would greatly promote science by more numerous endowments than it now gives to professorships of those branches of knowledge for which, without endowments, there are no adequate means of support. And here, again, is shown the contrast between Oxford and the large towns in their opportunities for good. Professorships of practical subjects, in the schools of London and other large towns, need no endowment. If it can be said that they are not always ivell supported by the fees of pupils, yet they are sure to help those who deserve it to ample success in practice. But in these schools, the less the direct help to jiractice which is given by a pro- fessorship, the less is its value, the less is the time during which it is held ; the more is it regarded as a stepping-stone to some more practical and remunerative office. Hence it is that, with few exceptions, in these practical schools the biological sciences are taught by those who have no in- tention of giving the best parts of their lives to them, who have little inducement to devote themselves to original research, and who are ready to leave the teaching of science as soon as they get into practice. I am not sure that in practical schools this is to be regretted ; it has some con_ siderable advantages which I need not now speak of. Nevertheless, it is greatly to be desired that there should be some good endowments for some of those who would thoroughly devote themselves to teaching and research in ^he pure biological sciences. If Oxford will provide such endowments, and, in addition to those which she already grants, give sufficient means of living, with the rank and social position of gentlemen, to some of those who will give themselves to science, she may do far more for the welfare and utility of the medical profession than by any possible success in an attempt to establish a Practical School of Medicine. Moreover, Oxford may thus, to the great benefit of the whole country, make itself a chief centre of scientific teaching. As it is a chief school for the education of those who are to be teachers of classics and theology, so may it become for those who should be teachers of biology. And it cannot but be useful, both to the public and to the medical profession, if in Oxford, with a more complete and well endowed Science-School, men of liberal education may learn more than they now do of the sciences with which medicine and surgery are allied, and may see how earnest and laborious are they who strive for just eminence in practice. I have thus, perhajjs at too great length, ventured to give reasons for answering in the negative the first of the three questions submitted to me. I should think it a matter for the greatest regret if Oxford should employ its wealth and influence in establishing a Practical School which is not wanted, and should neglect or be sparing in the maintenance of a complete School of Biological Science, which is one of the greatest wants of our time. I must write with less confidence in answer to the several parts of the third question, for I am not familiar with the mechanism of Oxford-teaching, or with all the best methods of culture in modern biology. I think that the student, while at Oxford, should be as thoroughly instructed in chemical, physical, and biological sciences as may be possible in courses of study occupying not less than two years ; that for each course there should be not only a professor, but one or two demonstrators or assistant pro- fessors with whom practical work may be done ; and that the courses should be so arranged that all the time spent in them may be counted as part of that required for obtaining a medical degree or other qualification. I think it not desirable that a student should be advised to complete bis courses of human anatomy and of ])hysiology before quitting the university.” It would be convenient if, in these, as in other subjects, the time spent should “ count : ” but human anatomy and jffiysiology must never cease to be studied by any student who is to be made fit for eminence in the medical profession. And I think it very “ desirable that the student should “ have whilst still at Oxford, opj)ortunities of commencing “ the clinical study of disease.” Those who are to teach or practice medicine should, fi’om the first to the last of their studies, watch disease. They should see and think of the objects towards which their studies are to be directed, and in relation with which all their knowledge is to be made useful. And this would be practicable with such opportunities of clinical study as the Radcliffe Infirmary would supply to a Professor of Clinical Medicine, a Professor of Clinical Surgery, and a Professor of Pathology. James Paget. No. 20. From W. Turner, Esq., M.B., F.R.S., Professor of Anatomy. Sill, University of Edinburgh, March 25, 1878. I tiAD the honour to receive your letter of February 22nd, in which you request me to give my opinion on the three following (piestions : — 1 . Is it desirable that the University of Oxford should attempt to establish a Practical School of Medicine ? 2. If this question be answered in the afiu’mative, what staff of teachers would it be necessary in the first instance to provide in order that the attempt might be made with a fair prospect of success ? 3. If the first question be answered in the negative, to what extent should the student, while still at Oxford, be encouraged to carry the scientific studies prehminary to the professional study of medicine ? I have also to acknowledge the receipt of a copy of the statutes of the university relative to the degrees of Bachelor of Arts and of Bachelor of Medicine, and copies of the annual reports of the Iladclifife Infirmary. I have carefully considered the questions and documents which have been submitted to me, and beg to forward for the consideration of the University of Oxford Commission the following statement in reply : — I do not think that it is desirable to attempt to establish a Practical School of Medicine either in Oxford or elsewhere. UNIVEKSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — SUl’FLKMENTAllY HVIDENOF. 387 unless proper provision can be made for the thorough training of students in the several departments of medical study. I am of o])inion that the medical training imparted in our universities should he based upon a full course of instruc- tion in the scientific studies preliminary to medicine, and that the practical training in the proper work of the jiro- fession, if conducted at all, should he of the highest attainable standard. If this be not so, university students and graduates cannot hope to acquire such a comprehensive knowledge of the methods of professional study as ^yould fit them to follow the higher branches of their profession. To carry out a full system of training in Practical Medicine the following professorial staff would be re- quired : — 1. Professor of Anatomy. 2. i9 „ Physiology. 3! 5J „ Pathology. 4. „ Materia Medica and Therapeutics. 5. ft „ Forensic Medicine and Hygiene. 6. „ Obstetrics. 7 . ff „ Practice of Physic. 8. „ Surgery. As the modern methods of teaching the subjects medical study are not limited to the delivery of systematic lectures, but are largely demonstrative, most of these pro- fessorial chairs would require to have attached to them demonstrators or assistants whose business it would be to aid the professors in the practical instruction of the students. The Professor of Anatomy would require a dissecting room and other apartments arranged for carrying on his special work. The Professors of Physiology, Pathology, Forensic Medicine and Hygiene, and Materia Medica and Therapeu- tics, would require laboratories for the practical instruction of their students. The Professors of Obstetrics, Practice of Physic, and Surgery would require museums for the display of specimens to illustrate their lectures. Lecture rooms would also have to be provided, which in the case of some chairs would have to be set apart for the sole use of a single chair, though in other cases one lecture room might be used conjointly by two professors. I do not know bov/ far the University of O.vford is provided with buildings such as could be used for or converted to the purposes I have indicated. If the university has not the necessary buildings then an outlay of many thousands of ])ounds would be required to erect them. The University of Edinburgh is at present engaged in erecting similar buildings for the accommodation of her Medical School, the estimate for which, exclusive of site, is 130,500L As these buildings are designed for the systematic and [)ractical insti’uction of classes of students, varying from 250 to 500 in number, they are of course on a much larger scale than would he required in Oxford. Still a number of apartments, though of much smaller size, such as are needed for a properly regulated system of practical instruction in the several departments of medical study, could not be built without the expenditure of considerable capital. An annual grant for the salaries of the demonstrators or assistants, and for the cost of apparatus and instru- ments, would have to be made, which, at a moderate esti- mate of the expenses of the eight chairs that I have named, would amount to from 1,000L to 1,5007 I may perhaps also be permitted to offer some observa- ations on the emoluments of the eight professorships named in my list, only two of which apparently at ])resent exist in the University of Oxford, viz., the Linacre Professorship of Anatomy and Physiology and the Regius Professorship of Medicine. In the present state of the anatomical and physiological sciences it is difficult for one man to undertake the teach- ing of both subjects, so that whilst the present Linacre professorship would have to be restricted to the teaching either of anatomy or physiology, as the case may be, a dis- tinct i)rofessorship would require to be established for the other subject. Hence six new i)rofessorships in the faculty of medicine would require to be founded, and endowments provided for them. The present occupant of the Linacre Professorship is, I understand, required to devote himself to performing the duties of his chair, and is not allowed to engage in the practice of either medicine or surgery. If distinct profes- sorships of anatomy and of physiology be founded it is desirable that those who hold these appointments should devote themselves to the work of their respective chairs, so that a sufficient endowment would have to be provided for each chair, to enable the professor to live without any other source of professional income. The Chair of Practice of Physic, has at ])rese))t, I under- stand, an adequate endowment, and the occupant of that chair would naturally be engaged in practice as a physician in Oxford and the surrounding district. The Chairs of Pathology, of Materia Medica and Thera- ])eutics, of Forensic Medicine and Hygiene, of Obstetrics and of Surgery, should, as regards endowment, be jdaced, I think, on a similar footing to the Chair of Practice of Physic, for the duties of these chans may very appropri- ately be performed in conjunction with the practice of either medicine or surgery. For the efficient teaching in- deed of thera])eutics, obstetrics, and surgery it is necessary that the professors in those chairs should be actively en- gaged in practice, so as to be in a position to study disease in all its aspects. The question therefore arises, does Oxford from its position and pojmlation afford sufficient opportunities to give {Experience to so large a staff of professors as would be recpiired for a complete Medical School, and to offer cases in sufficient number and variety for efficient clinical teaching ? I have not sufficient data for giving an opinion on the opportunities which Oxford may afford in the way of pri- vate practice, though from the comparative smallness of the population it is not likely that every member of so large a professorial staff as I have indicated could expect to be actively employed. O.xford possesses, however, in the Radcliffe infirmary jmblic hospital. At present the infirmary is, I understand, in no way under the control of the university. Before it could be made available, therefore, for chnical teaching it would be necessary that the Professors of Surgery, Prac- tice of Physic, Therajieutics and Pathology, should be ex ojficio officers of the infirmary, and that a sufficient numher of beds should be allotted to each of these professors. From the annual reports of the Infirmary, as well as from other information which I have received, I have some doubt if the Radcliffe Infirmary provides a sufficient variety of cases for observation and study to enable a teacher to give that thorough training in clinical medicine and surgery which the medical graduates of a university ought to receive. The surgical operations, for example, performed during any given year, are few in number, and mostly of a similar kind, year by year. It is not likely that in this resjject the surgical practice of the infirmary can undergo much change, for the general occupations of the peojde of the district are not such as to lead to the produc- tion of a great variety of surgical injury. Further, there does not appear to be any department of obstetrics either in connexion with the infirmary or as a separate institu- tion, without which the efficient teaching of that subject could not jnoperly be conducted. Again, neither human anatomy nor pathology can be suceessfully taught without an ample supply of dead bodies being accessible both to teachers and students. Specimens preserved in museums, though useful in many respects, cannot be regarded as substitutes for fresh dissections. How far the opportunities of obtaining dead bodies may exist in Oxford I am unable to say, but from the reeords of the Radcliffe Infirmary it does not appear as if the annual mortality were such as to provide for the purposes of pathological instruction such a variety of material as would enable the student to acquire a competent know- ledge of the morbid changes occurring in disease. From a consideration, therefore, of the several cu’cum- stances that I have stated, it is obvious that in order to establish a Practical School of Medicine in Oxford, it would be necessary to make a large increase in the staff of j)ro- fessors. To provide endowments for the new chairs, for the payment of assistants, and other e.xpenses, for the erection of new buildings, or the conversion of existing buildings into suitable apartments, a considerable new charge would have to be made on the income of the uni- versity. Arrangements also would have to be carried out for permanently attaching to the Radcliffe Infirmary the occu])ants of certain chairs. But su])posing that all these changes were made I have considerable doubts if Oxford is likely to become a suc- cessful Practical School of Medicine. The imperfect siq)ply of cases for clinical study will always prove a hindrance to its development, and the more energetic and able of its students will j)refer to resort to schools of medicine which offer a wider field of observation and research. Again, 1 am by no means satisfied that it is expedient to multiply small schools of medicine throughout the country. My experience for nearly a ejuarter of a century in this university has shown me, that where large bodies of men are engaged in the same studies, the work of the school is conduated with zeal, the students stimulate each other to habits of industry, and the teacher being daily brought into contact with many fresh and active minds, 3 C 2 388 UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION : — SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. require;! to exert himself, so that the whole mental tone of the school is elevated. Whilst 1 am not prepared, therefore, to give an affirma- tive answer to the first question propounded by the Com- mission, 1 believe that O.xford is admirably adapted for giving a thorough training in the scientific studies prelimi- nary to the professional study of medicine. The university possesses a botanical garden, chemical and physical labo- ratories, a biological museum with several ajjartments for practical teaching. These various departments of science are presided over by eminent professors, and are provided with assistants and appliances for teaching. The division of the Linacre Professorship into distinct profes- sorships of anatomy and of j)hysiology would extend and comjilete the biological teaching. A comparatively small additional expenditure would enable these departments to accommodate an increased number of students, and would pi’ovide a physiological laboratory, with instruments and other appliances for teaching that subject. Students of anatomy and physiology might be encouraged to attend the Radcliffe Infirmary so as to obtain an insight, under the sujiervision of the Professor of Medicine, into the prac- tical applications of these subjects to the study of disease, but such attendance should not be regarded as absolving a student from the more complete and systematic instruction to be obtained at a Medical School. As under the present regulations candidates for the degree of Bachelor of Arts may at their option devote the last two years of study for that degree to natural science, a certificate of having passed in the Natural Science School might be held as absolving a candidate for a degree in medicine from examination in the scientific subjects pre- liminary to the proper medical studies. The examination for a degree in medicine might there- fore be restricted to human anatomy and physiology and to the subjects of the present second examination. At least three years would require to be devoted to these dif- ferent branches, and the examinhtion on them might be taken either at one period or at two periods, as might be found most convenient. A candidate for a degree in medicine would thus be en- abled to obtain his Bachelor’s degree three years after graduating as Bachelor of Arts, without, I apprehend, sus- taining any loss in his general culture. I submit these observations with all deference to the consideration of the Commission, and if through want of knowledge of all the local circumstances I should have made any inaccuracy in my statement, I trust that I shall be jyardoned for so doing. I am, &c. Wm. Turner, M.B., F.R.S., Professor of Anatomy. No. 21. The following resolutions have been submitted to at least thirty medical graduates of the University of Oxford, including Drs. Andrew, Blandford, Bridges, Browne, Chambers, Champneys, Church, Clarke, Cor- lield, Uarbishire, Donkin, Fincham, Goolden, Hastings, La(;y, Lendon, Longstaff, Monro, G. W. M. Moullin, d. A. jM. Moullm, Payne, Schofield, Sharkey, Shepherd, Heywood Smith, Southey, Sutherland, Teale, Whipham, Williams. Resolutions passed at a Private Meeting of Oxford Medical Graduates, on January 26th and February 2nd, 1878. 1. That in view of the fact that a Royal Commission on the University of Oxford is now sitting, it is desirable to consider the state of medical education in Oxford. 2. That it is desirable that the third year of study for the degree of B.A. shall be counted by those who graduate through the Natural Science School as a first year of medical study required by the Medical Council. 3. That it is desirable that the teaching of Anatomy and Physiology in Oxford should be organised at least as com- ])letely as in other medical schools, 4. That it is also desirable that instruction should be jirovided in all the subjects in which certificates are re- quired by the Examining Boards (or will be required under the conjoint scheme), for the first two years of medical study. 5. That Physics and Chemistry no longer form a part of the First M.B. Examination, but that all candidates be required to pass a Preliminary Scientific examination, unless they have previously j)assed in the Natural Science School, in the subjects of such examination. 6. That the First M.B. Examination should include Materia Medica and the Physiological Action of Drugs. 7 . That the four years of medical study required by the university date from the time of passing the Preliminary Scientific Examination or its equivalent in the Natural Science School, provided the candidate have already passed the examinations for the degree of B.A. 8. That it is desirable that the Examinations for the M.B. degree be held at some time between the 1st of April and the 31st of July, since the present arrangement inter- feres greatly with the medical year. 9. That the resolutions be submitted to those to whom the circular was sent, and that they be requested to sign them if they think fit, and so far as possible to append reasons for their assent to or dissent from them, and that a copy of the resolutions, with the signatures and observa- tions, be sent to the Regius Professor of Medicine. Resolution 1 was approved by 30. 2 99 26. >9 3 99 27. 4 99 23. 99 5 99 30. 99 6 99 26. 99 7 9t 26. 99 8 99 30. 99 9 99 30. Dr. West did not sign re.solutions 2, 3, and “ because they arc interjircted in different ways different people ” ; his own opinion is expressed follows : — The chief object of the meeting was to express an opinion upon the question of establishing a complete Medical School in Oxford. The resolution to this effect was thrown out by a large majority, and therefore there does not appear upon the o])posite page any expression of opinion uj)on this question, I think it not advisable to attempt to establish a complete Medical School in Oxford, for the reason that it could never be more than third or fourth rate. This being settled, it was necessary to consider how, when the conjoint scheme had come into force, and Oxford had lost its power of conferring a license to practise, the Oxford M.B. could be made an honours examination, and how, with this object in view, the subjects had best be redistributed. For this purpose resolutions 5, 6, and 7 were passed, The scheme embodied in them would, I believe, meet all requirements, and would at the same time necessitate the minimum of change. Oxford would, I believe best do her duty to Medicine by teaching all the preliminary sciences in the best way possible, and every inducement should be held out to Oxford men working at medicine to spend part of their time in Oxford in scientific preparation for their practical work at the large Medical Schools. But while thus pre- paring themselves in the best way for their M.B., they should not be handicapped for their licensing examination in London, but they should be able to obtain from Oxford all the certificates required for the first College of Surgeons Examination, or its equivalent under the conjoint scheme, and this they might easily do. Human Anatomy might well be taught in Oxford, and the little practical surgery work required for the Examination could easily be done in the Infirmary, with very little alteration in its present constitution, and certainly without the establishment, in connexion with the University, of any new Clinical Chairs, a proposal to which I am very strongly opposed. Samuel West, M.B. St. Bartholomew’s Hospital, E.C., February 28th, 1878. No. 22. Letter from Dr. Acland with a copy of the above Resolutions. Oxford, March 25, 1878. My Lords and Gentlemen, I HAVE received a copy of certain resolutions passed at a meeting of more than thirty Oxford graduates in medicine ; Dr. Andrew, physician to St. Bartholomew’s Hospital, being in the chair. It was holden at the house of Dr. Payne, assistant physician to St. Thomas’ Hospital, on January 26, and February 2, 1878. I have the honour to enclose a copy of the resolutions to your Commission. I desire to express my great satisfaction that the non- resident medical graduates of Oxford should lend the university their advice and support; and should thus interest themselves in the development of those improve- UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. 389 merits which have for many years been steadily and efficiently carried on ; as testified to, by the increase in late years of the number of the candidates in our medical examinations corresponding to the great increase in our means of study in all subjects fundamental to medicine ; and, by the much higher standard, scientific and practical, reached in our examinations, in all the departments of medicine, and in the subject of public health. The graduates by a very large majority rejected a pro- posal to attempt the formation of a complete medical school in Oxford. The points on which a majority agreed are all of impor- tance. Whenever the question of the conjoint scheme for England is settled, as I trust it may be this year, these will have to be considered in relation to a new medical statute, which has now for many years waited only the adjustment of that scheme. The scheme is, as you are aware, now before Parliament. Resolutions 2, 5, 7, 8, can all be dealt with by the university with its present powers. Resolutions 3, 4, 6, cannot be dealt with without the intervention of your Commission. They require funds for additional professorships and laboratories for anatomy, for I)hysiology, for materia medica, and for pharmacy. I am bound to add that the resolutions in favour of the last two subjects being studied here were not unanimous. I have, &c. Henry W. Acland, F.R.S., Regius Professor of Medicine. The Right Honourable the Chairman of the Royal Commission on the University of Oxford. No. 23. Statement by the Regius Professor of Medicine, Dr. Acland, supplementary to his Evidence. Oxford, March 27, 1878. My Lords and Gentlemen, At the close of the oral evidence which I had the honour of giving to the Commission in November last, I asked and obtained your leave to send in some supple- mentary observations. Upon that occasion I laid before your Commission two plans, upon either of which action might be taken. One of them contemplated the further development within the university of the arrangements for teaching the subjects which lie at the foundation of medicine. The other sketched out tentatively the numerous fresh creations which would be necessary for the establishment here of a medical school complete in all its departments both scientific and practical. I wish now to lay before you these supplemental pro- posals which I have your permission to make, taking as my basis the former of these two plans, and referring you to my evidence already before you for the reasons which have always for 30 years made it seem to me the more advisable of the two alternatives. Scheme for promoting the higher scientific studies funda- mental to medicine. Group A. Non-professional. Complete arrangements for elementary study and original research in subjects already more or less provided for in the Museum, viz., — Professor(s) of physics,* including light (with optics), heat, electricity, mechanics, hydro- dynamics, pneumatics, auristics. „ „ chemistry,* inorganic, organic, (toxico- logy ?) „ „ botany.* „ „ zoology.* „ „ geology.* ,, ,, anatomy.* „ „ ethnology. „ ,, anthropology. ,, ,, meteorology. * Each of these is to be sub-divided, where requisite, and each to be provided with — {a.) An assistant (one or more). (6.) Laboratory for students. (c.) „ ,, advanced work. (It is to be noted that details on the above departments of natural science, as well as on the cognate subjects of astronomy and mineralogy, are omitted as not relevant to the present memorandum.) Group B. Professional. Group A, having been completely j'rovided, then as follows ; — 1. Regius Professor of Medicine (This professorship to be attached to a college, if possible, that of the founder of the chair, (Henry or that of Linacre and Sydenham). (An assistant and servant at the Museum). 2. Professor of Physiology and Hygiene. Assistant. j Laboratory. I for physiology. Servant. J Assistant. i Laboratory, i for hygiene. Servant. J 3. Professor of General and Comparative Pathology to replace the Professor of Clinical Medicine. The Professor to act as Medical Registrar and Patho- logist of the district, and as Medical Jurist by arrangement with the university and authorities. Assistant (one or more). Servant. Laboratory. 4. riie Professorship of Clinical Medicine being thus converted, the university to arrange with the governors of Me Infirmary (1) that all the Physicians and all the Surgeons be recognised as teachers (2) that the resident medical and surgical officers be paid (on conditions) to give such eleinentary instruction as private tutors in medicine and surgical subjects, as may from time to time be decided upon by the university : the university to have due voice in the appointment of residents for these purposes. If the Professorship of Clinical Medicine be not converted into a Professorship of General and Comparative I’athology, then a Professorship of Clinical Surgery to be forthwith founded But I deprecate both at present as faulty in principle, and as a bad appropriation of funds greatly needed for other purposes. Of the two, a Professorship of Clinical Surgery ^ more important for Oxford than a Professorship of Clinical Medicine. Whether the surgical opportunities of Oxford justify the creation of such a chair, the Com- missioners will decide. 5. Iwenty terminable fellowships should be assigned to the faculty of medicine, to be taken up in such ways and on such conditions of tenure among the several colleges as may be settled by the Commissioners. (The number 20 was proposed by rne in 1848, as being about one for each college. But this particular apportionment would for obvious reasons not be the best. A Medical College how- ever is unadvisable.) fi. A certain number of “ Radcliffe Scholarships ” for medical students unconnected with the university, but under conditions approved by the university, to be per- manently, instead of as heretofore temporarily, arranged. 7. Funds as special grants for research. I have, &c. Henry W. Acland, F.R.S. No. 24. University Commission, Radcliffe Infirmary. Streatley Vicarage, Reading, My Lord, March 28, 1878. I HAVE heard in various quarters during the last few weeks that it has been pressed on the consideration of the University Commissioners to provide for the insti- tution of a new school of medicine in the university in connexion with the Radcliffe Infirmary of which I am at present treasurer. What I have heard has impressed me with the idea that it might be expedient that I should address a few brief observations to your Lordship as chairman of the Commission. 1. As to the material basis which the infirmary could furnish towards the foundation of such a school. Considerable additions have quite recently been made to the buildings, but the object of these additions was not simply to enlarge, but also to improve the existing accom- modation. In the end some extension will have been effected corresponding with the growth of the poj)ulation in the immediate vicinity of the infirmary. The number of beds will be increased to 175, but of this gross total 16 are in wards of isolation for infectious diseases, and 12 are for children, leaving 147 beds for adults suffering under general ailments. The weekly average of beds occupied last year was 112, the highest average experienced 117 was reached in 1870, 3 C 3 390 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. 18/2, and 1874, but the highest number of patients at any one time in the house was 144 in 1870, the highest minimum 96 occurred in the same year. But there is naturally much greater fluctuation in the minimum than in the maximum, because the superior limit is fixed. When the increase in the number of beds shall have been fully utilised there is no doubt that the increased number of patients at some seasons will cause the maximum to rise, thereby increasing the weekly average, but only slightly, for the fact of there being no regular increase in the lowest number of patients at any one time in the house seems to point out that there has been no great increase in the demand for hospital accommodation. 2. Bearing very distinctly on this is the question of maintaining the hosjiital with an increased number of beds. During the period of 20 years that I have been treasurer the annual income of the infirmary has risen from a little under 4,000?. to more than 6,000?., but the cost of the increased requirements for the patients has outstripped the growth of the fund provided for their aid, and at the jiresent time the institution is struggling with the serious deficit of nearly one quarter’s expenditure, which renders the administration of the charity extremely difficult, and may even render necessary a reduction instead of an extension of the number of beds. The cost of a bed may be put at between 47?. and 48?. per annum. 3. There is to be considered the composition of the governing body of the infirmary with which the university as a corporation would have to enter into agreement. The university would always no doubt exercise great influence in the government of the infirmary, but it has no power there as a corporation and must proceed there by the votes of its individual members who happen to be qualified as governors. As a direct illustration of this part of the question may be adduced what took place on the occasion of the last appointment of Clinical Professor. The appointment was the act of the university in its corporate capacity. But the governors of the infirmary immediately on the appointment being made took away from the professor the privilege which all his predecessors had held of selecting any case among the patients of the in- firmary which he might require for the use of his class, and this was effected mainly by the influence of members of the university who were governors. Perhaps it was ille- gally done and probably legal means might be found to exist, or might be acquired for making any compact between the university and the governors binding. But if so, and if the project was distasteful to any considerable number of governors, or if after the compact was entered into, evils real or fancied arose interfering or deemed to interfere with the comfort of patients and the compact could not be shaken off, the other result would follow of a decline in the interest felt by the governors in the infirmary, which is the only security for its maintenance. I hope I shall not be regarded as intrusive in offering these observations as preliminary to the consideration of any plan, which seem to me not to lie in the vestibule, but at the threshold of the vestibule itself. I have, &c. John Si.atter. The Right Hon. Lord Selborne. No. 24. St. Andrew’s, Dear Mr. Dallin, April 2, 1878. In reply to your letter of the 27th March, asking me to communicate to the University Commissioners any statement or opinion regarding the poetry professorship which I may wish to bring before them, I will first state the \’iew I take of the function of that professorship. It seems to me that the best thing which the Professor of Poetry can do for the university, is to deliver each year a few lectures, which shall be stimulating and suggestive to those who hear them. It does not seem desirable that he should give long courses of lectures, as a Professor of English Literature might do, surveying his whole subject historically and exhaustively, and imparting information, much of which might be found in books. Of this kind of instruction there is no lack in Oxford. Rather it would seem to be the Professor of Poetry’s province to give a few lectures yearly on poetry, the poets, or any cognate topic, speaking of some subject which he has made jieculiarly his own, and on which he rnight be able to offer some views, which would awaken new interest, or open up fresh lines of thought for those who hear him. If then his lectures should be of this suggestive — I do not say original — kind, it is evident that very few men could go on for a series of years giving numerous lectures of this kind. That this seems to have been the view of the foimder of the chair, I gather from the fact that the statute of its foundation requires only one lecture “ unoquoque termino” that is three lectures each year. If it is thought best to leave this regulation essentially unaltered, I would wish to ask the Commissioners whether they might not think it right to give the Professor of Poetry the option of delivering his three lectures continuously in one term. This would be a special boon in my case, seeing I have to make the long journey from here to Oxford each term to give one lecture. But if the Commissioners think it right to retain the ordinance without even the small modification I have jiroposed, I would ask them to consider whether some allowance might not be made to me for travelling expenses. As it is, I have to spend about half of the small yearly salary attached to the chair, in travelling to and from Oxford, to deliver my lectures. These proposals are made on the supposition that the Commissioners are not inclined to make innovations on the established usage of the chair. But if they are willing to do so, then there is a large change which I would submit to their consideration. It is that the professor should be required to give six lectures each year ; either all in one term, or three in one term, three in another ; and that the salary should be increased to at least double its present amount. For you will re- member that besides lecturing there are other duties belonging to the office — to look over and decide on the Sacred Poems, and the Poems for the Newdigate, and also to deliver the Creweian Oration from time to time. A man might he able to give six lectures yearly of the kind I have already indicated, but not more. At least I believe that very few men could continue to give more than six for a series of years. This last proposal is, I believe, worthy of the considera- tion of the Commissioners. If it should approve itself to their judgment, I am willing to undertake the increased labour it would entail on the conditions above mentioned. I would wish, however, once more to repeat that I hope nothing will be done which may tend to change the lectures from their present interesting and stimulating character into more numerous lectures which would merely convey information, such as is accessible in ordinary sources. As they at j)resent are, the lectures given by the Pro- fessor of Poetry seem to be appreciated. If I may judge by the two occasions on which I have lectured, tbey are attended by large and attentive audiences, including a good number of undergraduates, as weU as M. A. s. If they were changed into regular courses, lasting throughout a whole term, this would j)rohably entirely cease. It would be a pity to change what has hitherto been looked forward to as a pleasing and useful variety amid the regular routine of study, into dull courses delivered in an empty room to a few uninterested hearers. I am, &c. J. C. Shairp. No. 26. 22, Cavendish Square, Sir, April 9, 1878. As President of the Royal College of Physicians I have been requested to transmit to you the enclosed peti- tion to the University of Oxford Commissioners. I should willingly have signed the petition myself, had I not already expressed my views, in answer to the request made to me by the Commissioners. I have, &c. To the Rev. T. Vere Bayne, Jas. Risdon Bennett. Secretary to the Unh'ersity of Oxford Commissioners, &c. Petition to the University of Oxford Commission. We, the undersigned professors and teachers of medi- cine and the allied sciences, professors, tutors, and lecturers in the University of Oxford, or graduates of Oxford, beg respectfully to submit to the Commissioners the following statement resjjecting the relations between the university and the medical profession : — We cannot but see that the contributions made by the university to the science of medicine, and its influence on the profession, are so slight as to be practically insigni- ficant; and believe that the small numbers of the Oxford graduates who enter the medical profession are mainly due to the absence in the university of any adequate working organisation for medical education or the promotion of medical science. We believe that a more irtimate connexion of the uni- versity with the medical profession would be of advantage UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. 391 in many ways : — To the university itself, as giving it wider interests and stronger claims on national sympathy ; to the profession, as raising its standard of general culture ; to the progress of medical science generally ; and also to the progress of those sciences which are usually regarded as ancillary to medicine, more particularly of biology. On all these grounds we regard the question as one of national importance. We believe that other European universities, with scarcely an exception, recognise the preparation of young men for the medical profession and the advancement of medical science as among the most important of their academical functions. We, therefore regret, the present imperfect condition of the medical faculty at Oxford, and think it highly desi- rable that this imperfection should be remedied, unless it should be found to depend upon unavoidable causes. We do not feel competent to express any opinion, collec- tively, upon points of detail, such as whether all or only some branches of medical science, can be profitably pursued in Oxford, but we desire to call the attention of the Com- missioners to the fact that such obstacles as may be thought likely to stand in the way of medical education at Oxford appear to be actually surmounted in other universities similarly situated. We, therefore, most respectfully beg the Commissioners to consider the promotion of medical science and medical education in Oxford as among the wants of the university, and to take these objects into account in the distribution of university and college endowments. (Signed) Joseph Lister, F.R.S., Professor of Surgery at King’s College, London. W. R. Sanders, M.D., Professor of Pathology in the University of Edinburgh. J. S. Bristowe, M.D., F.R.C.P., Physician and Lecturer on Medicine at St. Thomas’s Hospital. Robert McDonnell, M.D., F.R.S., President of the Royal College of Surgeons, Ireland ; Surgeon to Dr. Steeven’s Hospital, Dublin ; Member of Council of the University of Dublin. W. H. Broadbent, M.D., F.R.C.P., Physician and Lecturer on Medicine at St. Mary’s Hospital. E. H. Sieveking, M.D., F.R.C.P., Physician and late Lecturer on Materia Medica at St. Mary’s Hospital ; Physician Extraordinary to the Queen. O. Sturges, M.D., F.R.C.P., Physician and Lecturer on Medicine at the Westminster Hospital. F. de Havilland Hall, M.D., M.R.C.P., Assistant Physician and Medical Tutor to the Westminster Hospital. T. Lauder Brunton, M.D., D.Sc., F.R.S., F.R.C.P., Assistant Physician and Lecturer on Materia Medica at St. Bartholomew’s Hospital; Examiner in the Universities of London and Edinburgh. Henry Power, M.B„ F.R.C.S., Lecturer on Ophthal- mic Surgery at St. Bartholomew’s Hospital, and Examiner in Natural Science in the University of Oxford. David Ferrier, M.D., F.R.S., Professor of Forensic Medicine, King’s College, London. Richard Davy, M.B., F.R.C.S., Surgeon and Lec- turer on Anatomy to the Westminster Hospital. Samuel Wilks, M.D., F.R.S., Physician and Lec- turer on Medicine, Guy’s Hospital. Oxford Graduates in Medicine. G. T. Fincham, M.D., F.R.C.P., Physician and Lecturer on Medicine to the Westminster Hos- pital. Reginald Southey, M.D., F.R.C.P., Physician and Lecturer on Forensic Medicine at St. Bartholo- mew’s Hospital. A. B. Shepherd, M.D., F.R.C.P., Assistant Phy- sician and Lecturer on Histology at St. Mary’s Hospital, H. B. Donkin, M.B., Assistant Physician and Lec- turer on Materia Medica, at the Westminster Hospital, C. T. Williams, M.D., F.R.C.P., Physician to the Hospital for Consumption, &c., Brompton. Heywood Smith, M.A., M.D., Physician to the Hospital for Women, Soho Square. Robert Bridges, M.B., Physician to the Great Northern Hospital. J. W. Browne, M.B., M.A., Fellow of Worcester College. E. H. Lendon, M.B., M.A. J. F. Payne, M.B., F.R.C.P., Fellow of Magdalen College; Assistant Physician and Lecturer on General Pathology at St. Thomas’s Hospital. E. Long Fox, M.D., F.R.C.P., Consulting Physician to the Bristol Royal Infirmary. J. H. Bridges, M.B., F.R.C.P., late Fellow of Oriel College; Medical Inspector to the Local Govern- ment Board. W H. Corfield, M.D., M.A., late Fellow of Pem- broke College, Oxford ; Professor of Hygiene at University College, London. Thos. Whipham, M.B.,F.R.C.P., Physician to St. George’s Hospital. Sparks, xM.B„ M.A., late Radcliffe 1 ravelling Fellow, G. Fielding Blandford, M.D., Lecturer on Psycho logical Medicine at St. George’s Hospital. Oxford Graduates in Arts and Law. James Bryce, D.C.L., Regius Professor of Civil Law. T. E. Holland, D.C.L., Chichele Professor of Inter- national Law. M. A. Lawson, M.A., Professor of Botany. G. C. Brodrick, M.A., Fellow of Merton College. W. Esson, M.A., F.R.S., Fellow of Merton College; Mathematical Tutor of Merton and Mao-dalen Colleges. ° C. J. Faulkner, M.A., Tutor of University College, H. F. Tozer, M.A., Tutor of Exeter College. H. F. Pelham, M.A., Lecturer of Exeter College. Ingram By water, M.A., Tutor of Exeter College. C. W. Boase, M.A., Tutor of Exeter College. W. W. Jackson, M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Exeter College. H. N. Moseley, M.A., F.R.S., Fellow of Exeter College. r. r. vviuerr, r>.A. , , reiiowoi Ji,xeter uoUege. R.W. Raper, B.C.L.,M.A., Fellow of Trinity College. T. J. Puckle, B.A., Fellow of Exeter College. Edward Bond, M.A.. Fellow of Queen’s College. E. Ray Lankester, M.A., F.R.S., Fellow and Lec- turer of Exeter College ; Professor of Comparative Anatomy in University College, London; Ex- aminer in the University of London. C. J. F. Yule, M.A., Fellow and Tutor in Natural Seience, Magdalen College. W. Boyd Dawkins, M.A. Oxon, F.R.S., Professor of Geology in Owens’ College, Manchester. J. R. Thursfield, M.A., Fellow and late Tutor of Jesus College. Frederick Harrison, M.A., late Fellow of Wadham College. Henry Thornton Wharton, M.A. J. C. Galton, M.A. Oxon, M.R.C.S. Evan H. Hare, M.A. Oxon, M.R.C.S. F. Dawtrey, Drewitt, B.A. Ch. Ch. T. H. Green, M.A., Whyte’s Professor of Moral Philosophy, Oxford. F. Jeffrey Bell, Demonstrator of Physiology in Magdalen College. No. 27. ^ ^ Wigginton Rectory, Banbury, Dear Sir, May 2, 187S. I HAVE long been a'student of ecclesiastical history, and have often experienced practically the want of one competent to advise with on questions relating to the medi- ccval church, doctrinal, ritualistic, and disciplinary. I do not think there has been anyone in my time to whom I could turn as an authority on all such jioints with any con- fidence ; yet I submit it is a subject well worthy of a separate professor’s chair. The professors of ecclesiastical history, during my time, have very naturally devoted themselves to those 'earlier or later portions of history, which are required for the schools, and to such portions all their publications have been confined hitherto. A pro- fessor of mediaeval church history would find a large field unoccupied, and as there are no less than four professors of divinity, practically, without counting Hebrew, may I venture to suggest that the Margaret professorship might from henceforth be appropriated to this subject. The pre- sent Margaret professor has, in fact, made the greatest advance towards it of any yet in respect of the creed. I should be happy to draw up a more formal statement on this head if required. Believe me, &c. To the Secretary of Edmund S. Ffoulkes the University of Oxford Commission. 3 C 4 392 university or oxford commission: — appendix. APPENDIX. Draft Scheme for the Endowment of Scientific Research. Handed in by Dr. Appleton, 24th October 1877. The raw material — two classes of minds : general ability and special ability. 1 . Given, a number of young men who are receiving a liberal education, under the guidance of competent pro- fessors, and within the limits of a sufficiently elastic and varied curriculum. A considerable number of these will probably waste their time, or from different causes, never attain anything like proficiency in their studies. We are not concerned with these. The remainder will fall into two classes, perfectly distinguishable by a teacher of ordinary experience, of those who shine because they have naturally agile and vigorous minds, who succeed in study because they would succeed in anything else, — and of those who have a particlar aptitude for study, and for a particular kind of study. Special ability wasted under existing conditions. 2. In this latter grouj), consisting of men endowed with different varieties of a special faculty, we thus ai-rive, by a method of exclusion, at the raw material, — the first draft, so to speak, of the scientific class of the next generation. Under our present arrangements, the members of both these classes alike are attracted into the practical pro- fessions — educational, legal, medical, civil, &c.— by which money may be made. As life goes on, the distinction between the two kinds of men becomes obliterated, and society suffers a double loss. First, it loses the additions to knowledge which the members of this latter class, or some of them, might have made ; and it loses, secondly, by having a portion of its routine business performed by men whose temperament is studious and inventive, rather than practical. This happens because we have no career o offer to the savant at the outset. Fir.st selection founded on the personal knowledge of the professor. 3. But if we had such a career to offer, what would ha])pen is this : — The man who, at the age of 20, say, felt within himself, or thought he felt within himself, the scientific impulse, would go to the professor under whom he had chiefly studied, and would say, “ Now you have seen “ my work for a couple of years, and you know jnetty well “ what I can do; do you think I shall make anything of “ a scientific career, or shall I go into a profession ?” The recommendation of a professor who knows his pupils and possesses their confidence, being given and followed would then form the first stage in the “ sifting process,” and out of the class of promising students with aj)parently special capacities, who desire to try the career of research, we should get a still smaller group of men, whom an experienced teacher recommends to try it. The professor’s recommendation to be checked by examina- tion. The two verdicts to be iveighed together. 4. Gan the professor tell without a formal examination? It is suggested that he can, for this reason. Because two or three years’ experience of the quality of a man’s work, under a variety of conditions, is better than three days’ experience of the same work done under pressure. But for the satisfaction of the public, whose money is to be spent, let us have an examination ; only not a competitive examination. For we want to know whether the ajjplicant is adequately acquainted with fact, and with the present state of inquir}^ as well as adequately trained in scientific method, before we trust bim to make investigations bimself for which we are to pay. We do not want to know whether and to what extent (if the expression may be pardoned) he has l)cen induced by the prospect of a glittering lu-ize to allow bimself to be fattened for the market. But the simple examination which reveals the candidate under pressure and the professor’s oi)inion of him independently of the examination, should be weighed together by the Board of Electors who have to grant the endowment for research. Composition of Board of Election. 5. As to the composition of this board, it may suffice for the present to say that it should always contain external and independent elements capable of checking the recom- mendation of the local professor, and some men at least of acknowledged eminence as discoverers. Amount of grant to be proportionate to average emoluments of other professions. 6. Now, as to the nature of the grant to be made. In annual amount it should be equal to, but not greater than, the average income which the candidate would make if he went into practical life. Otherwise if a premium be put on research, which shall make it monetarily more desirable than other occupations, we shall be embarrassed by an “ugly rush.” Let us say enough to live upon to begin with, perhaps not enough to marry upon. Precarious character of the grant. Choice of subject to be checked by the board. Subject of inquiry to be moderate in extent. 7. But the essential point about the grant of endowment for research is that it should be made for a limited time and for tbe performance of a specific piece of research, to be chosen of course by the candidate, subject to the approval of the board. This will ensure its being a real, and not a fanciful or fruitless investigation, and its being within the lines along which a particular science is advancing. At the same time it should be something distinctly modest in its extent, which will not take more than a year or a couple of years to get done. And the recipient of the grant should fully understand that he has vested no right to have a similar grant for another re- search when this is over. He is simply paid handsomely for doing a particular job ; nothing more. And to form part of a larger investigation actually in jnogress. 8. It is easy at this point to think of a number of means whereby he may be made to put forth his whole strength upon this first research. He may do it under the eye of the professor, or, what is inoie satisfactory, the research may form a part of a larger investigation in which some discoverer of eminence is engaged. In this way he is at once made a citizen of the republic of science, and a healthy emulation will spring up in him by intercourse with those who are engaged on other parts of the same investigation.* Second selection founded on the report of a learned society as to the quality of the work done. ‘.K Let us now suppose the term of the first grant nearly expired, and the first research done. It should then be presented for acceptance in the form of a paper to the Royal Society, or to one of the other learned societies of London. It is either accepted or rejected. If rejected, it is clear that the author has mistaken his vocation, and that both the professor and the board have made a blunder. But it is a blunder, both in reference to the community and in reference to the person more immediately concerned, of the very smallest practical consequence. A few hundred ])Ounds have been spent in trying an experiment ; a further grant, if the candidate desires it, which is improbable, will be refused ; and he is not too old to enter with success upon some other walk of life. If on the other hand, the learned society accepts his research as a real contribution to knowledge, we shall let him choose another problem of larger dimensions, occupying a longer time, and with an * Tills is the plan by which the frre»t historians and philologists of Germany bring on their picked piijiils to liccoine investigators at first hand and ultimately on their own account ; but the most perfectly organised institution in tlie world for this kind of joint work is the renowned physiological laboratory presided over by Professor Ludwig at Leipzig. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — APPENDIX, .393 increase in the annual payment, but in all other respects upon the same terms. Precarious and terminable grants to continue for twelve years; to be superseded by permanent endowment, pro- portionate in amount to the average, incomes made at the same age in other professions. — Excefdional rewards in science to be proportionate to exceptional rewards in other professions. — Terminable grants in the case of efficient persons form a continuous and increasing endowment. 10. This precarious and terminable, as opposed to permanent endowment, such as we have in a fellowship, should (TO on, with slight increase in the annual amount of each successive grant for 10 or 12 years — i.e., until the scientific habit of mind has been thoroughly formed in the recijiient, and he has arrived at an age at which the choice of another profession is practically closed to him. He would, according to the hypothesis, have done by this time a good number of thoroughly real researches, and then we could safely give him an endowment for life, the amount of which should be equal to the income of a barrister, or a medical man in fairly good practice, of a clerk who has been a dozen years in a public office, or of a junior partner in an average business — say, 800/. or 1,000/. a year. And if he at any time of his life makes a great discovery, let him be rewarded as Sir Garnet Wolseley has been rewarded for his conduct of the Ashantee campaign — by an additional annuity on an equally liberal scale. In this way, the pro- fession of science could be made to compete on equal terms with the practical professions ; and it should be remarked that during the period of probation, the endowment, although precarious and terminable, is really continuous, and not only continuous, but increasing in value, just as the income derived from a practical profession would have been. Endowment of the learned societies to a. small extent to prevent their becoming popularised. 11. Lastly, the learned and scientific societies should be endowed to an extent which would enable them to carry on their business and to print their transactions ; because it is a well-known fact that, in the case of some of them, it is found necessary, from sheer want of funds, to admit to membership a multitude of persons who have no pretension to the character of savants. It is probable that, in the majority of cases, the council of an unendowed society might be trusted, for competence, to perform the part, which in the present scheme we assigned to them, of accepting or rejecting the researches which we have supposed our young scientific men to make ; but if the society be dependent upon its subscriptions, it is obvious that the introduction of incompetent persons upon the council is wdthin the bounds of jjossibiiity, whereas, in the case of a learned body like the Royal Society, such a contingency and its consequences are scarcely conceivable. Handed iu by Professor Holland, 25th October 1877. Synopri.s of Lectures of Professors, Readers, and University Teachers for Hilary Term, 1875. Divinity Hebrew - ») Pastoral Theology Ecclesiastical History Exegesis Septiiagint Medicine Civil Law English Law »> International Law Jurisprudence Greek Latin Arabic - >3 ■" Sanskrit - Anglo-Saxon Comparative Philology French - German - Italian - Spanish - Hindustani Ancient History - 33 33 Modern History - >) » Faculty of Divinity. Place. Time. Regius Professor (J. R. Mozley, D.D.) - Margaret Professor (C. A. Heurtley, D.D) Regius Professor (E. B. Pusey, D.D.) - Professor Gandell - - - Mr. Deane - - - - Regius Professor (E. King, D.D.) Regius Professor (W. Bright, D.D.) Ireland Professor (H. P. Liddon, D.D.) - Mr. Wordsworth . - . - Grinfield Lecturer (J. W. Nutt, M.A.) Faculty of Medicine. Regius Professor (H. W. Acland, D.M.) Clinical Professor (H. W. Acland, D.M.) Faculty of Law. Regius Professor (.1. Bryce, D.C.L.) Vinerian Professor (J. R. Kenyon, D.C.L.) Vinerian Reader (Sir W. R. Anson, Bart., M.A.) Chichele Professor (T. E. Holland, B.C.L.) Corpus Professor (Sir H. J. S. Maine, D.Cl.L.) Christ Church - 1. Public Course begins on Feb. 3, at 1. 2. Mon. at 4. Christ Church - Tues., Thurs., and Sat., at Noon. Christ Church - Tues., Thurs., and Sat., at 9. Hertford 1. Mon., Wed., & Fri., at 9. 2. Tues., Thurs., & Sat., at 9. St. John’s - - Tues., Thurs., & Sat., at 10. Christ Church - Tues., Thurs., & Sat., at 11. Christ Church - 1. Mon., Wed., and Fri., at Noon. 2. Tues., at Noon. Clarendon - - Mon., Wed., and Fri., at 1 1. Brasenose - - Thurs. and Sat., at Noon. All Souls’ - - Thurs., Jan. 28, at 2. Infirmary Infirmary - - Sat., at 11. Clarendon - Law School - - Wed. and Sat. Wed., Feb. 3, Feb. 6). (omitting and Sat., Clarendon - - Mon. and 'fluirs.. at 10. All Sonls’ Corpus Christi - Tues. and Fri., at - To be arranged. n. > Faculty of Arts. I. Language, History, Philosophy, and Fine Art. Regius Professor (B. Jowett, M.A.) Corpus Professor (E. Palmer, M.A.) Laudian Professor (R. Gandell, M.A.) - Lord Almoner’s Reader (T. Chenery, M.A.). Boden Professor (Monier Williams, (M.A.) Balliol Corpus Christi Hertford Clarendon - Rawlinsonian Professor (J. Bosworth, D.D.) Professor (Max Muller, M A.) - Taylorian Teacher (Jules Bue, M.A.) - „ „ (A. Hamaiin) Beaumont Street Taylor Institution Taylor lustiUition Taylor Institution „ • „ (V. de Tivoli, M.A.) „ „ (L. Lucena) Teacher (J. Chambers, M.A.) - Camden Professor (G. Rawlinson, M.A.) Reader (W. W. Capes, M.A.) - Regius Professor (W. Stubbs, M.A.) - Taylor Institution - Taylor Institution - Clarendon - - Clarendon - - Clarendon - - Taylor Institution Chichele Professor (M. Burrows, M.A.) - All Souls’ - Mon., Wed., and Fri., at 10. To be arranged with pupils. Tues., Wed., Fri., and Sat., at 1 . Tues. and Thurs., at 11. Tues., Thurs., and Sat., at 1. Mon., Wed., & Fri., at 2 & 3. Tues., Thurs., and Sat., from 2 to 5. Tues., Thurs., & Sat., at 2. Mon., Wed., and Fri., at 2. To be arranged. Wed., and Fri., at Noon. Tues., Wed. and Fri., at Noon. Wed. and Fri., at 11. 3 D Q 6223. 394 UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION: — APPENDIX. Indian Law and History- Teacher (S. J. Owen, M.A.) Moral Philosophy - Whyte’s Professor (J. R. Eaton, M.A.) - Logic - Moral and Metaphysical Philosophy. PoUtical Economy Poetry . . . Fine Art - . - Professor (T. Fowler, M.A.) . - - Waynflete Professor (H. W. Chandler, M.A.) - Professor (Bonamy Price, M.A.) Birkhead Professor (Sir F. H. Doyle, B.C.L.). - Slade Professor (J. Ruskin, M.A.J. Place, Time. Clarendon - - Thurs. and Sat., at Noon. Merton - 1. Tues. and Thurs., at 1. 2. Wed. and Fri. Lincoln - Wed. and Sat., at 1. Magdalen - Tues, and Fri., at Noon. Clarendon - - Mon. and Fri., at 1. — Geometry II, Mathematical and Physical Sciences. Savilian Professor (H. J. S. Smith, M.A.) - Museum Astronomy Natural Philosophy Botany - - - Experimental Philosophy Chemistry Mineralogy Geology - - - Physiology » *■ Zoology - - - Savilian Professor (C. Pritchard, M.A.) Sedleian Professor (Bartholomew Price, M.A.) - Professor (M. A. Lawson, M.A.) Professor (R. B. Clifton, M.A.) - - - Demonstrator (W. N. Stocker, B.A.) Waynflete Professor (W. Odling, M.A.) Aldrichian Demonstrator (W. W. Fisher, M.A.) Professor (M. H. N. Story-Maskelyne, M.A.) - Professor (J. Prestwich, M.A.) . - - Linacre Professor (G. EoUeston, D.M.) - Demonstrator (C. Robertson) . . . Hope Professor (J. 0. Westwood, M.A.) Museum Museum Botanic Garden Museum Museum Museum Museum Museum Museum Museum Museum Museum - 1. Thurs. and Sat., at 9. 2. Thurs. and Sat., at 10. - Mon. and Wed., at 1. - Tues., Thurs., and Sat., at 1. - Wed. and Sat., at Noon. - Mon. and Thurs., at Noon. - Tues. and Fri., at 11. - Tues. and Fri., at 8 p.m, - Tues. and Fri., at 11. - Tues. and Fri., at Noon. - Daily from 10 to 5. Faculty of Music. Professor (Sir F. A.G. Ouseley, Bart., M. A., D. Mus.) - Music School. Choragus (C. W. Corfe, D. Mus.). Praecentor (L. G. Hayne, D. Mus.). Handed in by Professor Holland, October 25, 1877. Faculty of Law. The Board of Studies for the examination for the degree of Bachelor of Civil Law gives notice that this examination will, until fm’ther notice, include the following subjects : — I. Jurisprudence, General or Comparative. Candidates will be examined either in jurisprudence, and the theory of legislation ; or in some department of a foreign code, to he compared and contrasted with the English law bearing on the same subject. Candidates will be allowed to select any one of the following to be ex- amined in ; — 1. Indian Penal Code. 2. French, Code Civil, Livre III., Tit. III. 3. German, Allgemeines Handelsgesetzbuch, Viertes Buch, Titt. II., III., IV., V. (erster Abschnitt), (artt. 337-421). II. Roman Law. Candidates vvill be expected to possess a general acquaint- ance with the principles of Roman private law. They will be required to offer one of the folloiving special subjects ; — 1. The law of family relations. 2. Ownership and possession. 3. The theory of contracts generally. 4. The four consensual contracts. 5. The history of Roman legislation and Roman judi- cial institutions. No particular books are recommended, but candidates are advised to refer as frequently as they can to Gains and to the titles of the Digest which bear upon the special subject they have selected. In particular, reference may with advantage be made to the following titles of the Digest : — For special subject No. I. to the titles — De statu hominum (I. 5). — De his qui sui vel alien! iuris sunt (I. 6). — De adoptionibus et emancipatio- nibus (I. 7). — Quod cum eo qui in aliena potestate est negotium gestum esse dicetur (XIV. 5). — De ritu nuptiarum (XXIII. 2.). For special subject No. 2 to the titles — De acquirendo rerum domino (XLI. 1). — De acquirenda vel amittenda possessione (XLI. 2). For special subject No. 3 to the titles — De pactis (II. 14). — De obligationibus et aetionihus (XLIV. 7). For special subject No. 4 to the titles — De contrahenda em]itione (XVIII. I). — De aetionihus empti et venditi (XIX. I). For special subject No. 5 to the titles — De iustitia et iure (I. 1). — De origine imds (I. 2). — De legibus Senatus consultis et longa consuetudine (I- 3). — De constitutionibus principum (I. 4). Ill, English Law, Candidates will be expected to show such a general knowledge of the leading rules of the English law of pro- perty, family relations, contracts, and torts, as may be gathered from Stephen’s Blackstone, Williams’ Treatises on Real and Personal Property, and other institutional works of a similar character. They will also be examined in two S])ecial subjects, which each may select for himself out of the following list, under this restriction only, that both subjects may not be taken from the same division : — Division A. 1. General principles of the Law of Contracts, 2. The Law of Agency. 3. The Law of Sale. 4. General principles of the Law of Torts. Division B. 5. Outlines of the Law of Real Property. 6. The Law of Easements. 7. Leading principles of Equity.) 8. The Law of Trusts. 9. The Law relating to Fraud. Division C. 10. Outlines of Criminal Law. Division D. 11. Principles of the Law of Evidence. IV. International Law. Candidates will be examined either in general principles of private international law, or in the law of neutrality. Every candidate will be required to give notice to the Regius Professor of Civil Law of the subjects in which he proposes to offer himself to be examined, four weeks at least before the first day of Trinity Term. *„,* The attention of candidates is directed to the points in which the notice now issued differs from that hitherto in force, viz., that — Under Subject I., the whole, and not a part only, of the Indian Penal Code will he required. Under Subject II., it is stated that candidates will be expected to possess a general acquaintance with the pi-in- ciples of Roman private law; and the special subject of the law of family relations is no longer limited by the words “ father and child, husband and wife.” Under Subject IV., the law of neutrality has been sub- stituted for the law of prize. .1. Bryce, June 11, 1877. Regius Professor. UNIVEBSITir OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — APPENDIX. .395 Handed in by Professor Holland. Report of Committee of Professors on Professors’ Lecture Rooms, Present : — Professors Smith, Fowler, Rolleston, Holland, Jowett. The Committee appointed hy the professors to “ inquire and report on the wants of the professoriate in respect of lecture rooms ” have made inquiry and report as follows : They have received answers, mostly in writing, to ques- tions asked hy them from 30 professors and readers. Of these, three, the Regius Professor of Divinity, the Re- gius Professor of Hebrew, and the Margaret Professor of Divinity, are satisfied with their present accommodation. The Regius Professor of Ecclesiastical History does not require further provision, having a room in his house, but thinks that his successor might wish to have a lecture room within the precincts of Christ Church, available for the other professors of Divinity. The professors in Phy- sical Science are also in general satisfied with the accommo- dation which either is or can be provided for them at the Museum, with the exception of Professor Westwood, who desires to have the use of a moderate-sized room, which he would share with two other professors, and to have a private room of his own. The remaining professors desire to have a lecture room capable of containing from 40 to 60 auditors, and a private room in which they may keep books and see their pupils. Most of them express their willingness to share both of these with some other professor. Some of the professors also wish to have a large room capable of containing 100 auditors to be used for their public lectures. The Slade Professor of Art desires to have a room in connexion with the university galleries capable of con- taining 300 persons. He wishes also to have a large working room, with a goldsmith s forge, and a second room for modelling. The lecture room would be available for other lectures on general subjects. The Professors of Law are desirous that the lectures in law should all be given in the same building, which should be situated, if possible, in the neighbourhood of the Codrington Library. We think that these requirements are not unreasonable, and that the efficiency of the professoriate would be greatly increased by giving the professors buildings of their own. Subject to the approval of the Vice-Chancellor, these buildings might be available when not needed by the pro- fessors for use by other teachers. With the view of carrying out these requirements we suggest : — 1. That the large lecture room at the Museum should be refitted for the accommodation of large audiences, and that the Sheldonian 'Pheatre should be provided with moveable fittings for the same purjiose : 2. That one other large lecture room should be pro- vided capable of holding an audience of 120 persons : 3. That ten rooms should he provided capable of holding an audience of 60, and twelve prizate rooms : These rooms might all be contained in a single building. They might also be distributed in separate buildings. But the Committee are strongly of opinion that if the latter alternative is adopted, lectures in cognate subjects should be given under the same roof. Each lecture room and each private room might be shared by two professors. According to a rough estimate, a two-storied building meeting these requirements would cost from 16,000i. to 18,000Z. June 9, 1876, Handed in by Professor Holland. (See Evidence Nos. 1043, 1044, 1047.) Law Lectures for Hilary Term, 1877, Professors. Subject. Time. Place. — Regius Prof, of Civil Law (J. Bryce, D.C.L.). VinerianProf. of English Law (J. R. Kenyon, D.C.L.). Vinerian Reader of English Law (Sir W.R. Anson, Bart.,B.C.L.). Chichele Prof, of Inter- national Law (T. E. Holland, D.C.L.). Corpus Prof, of Juris- prudence (Sir H. J. S. Maine, D.C.L.). The History of Roman Law (continued). (Does not Lecture this Term.) The History of the English Law of Real Property. The characteristics of In- ternational Law, and the Rights of Nations in time of Peace. Subject and time will be am Wed. and Sat., at 4.30 - Wed. and Fri., at 1 1 Tues. and Thurs., at 1 1 - lounced - - - Clarendon Building. Law School. All Souls’. All Souls’. Corpus. College Lecturers.^ JH. B. George, M.A. - International Law (Neu- trality). Tues. and Thurs., at 1 1 - New College j;A. Bendy, B.C.L. The Principles of English Contract Law (con- tinued). Tues. and Thurs., at 9.45 University - For University, Roman Law (continued) - Wed. and Fri., at 9.45 - Balliol, Exeter, New, Examination Paper Sat. at 9.45 Trinity, and JE. A. Whittuck, M.A. Roman Law (Inheritance and Procedure). Constitutional Law of England. Tues. and Thurs., at 10 - Mon. and Fri., at 12 Oriel New College Worcester (jolleges. *fR. G. Tatton, M.A. - .Turisprudence Mon. and Fri., at 10 BalHol J. C. Wilson, B.C.L., Jurisprudence (continued) Mon. and Fri., at 1 1 Exeter M.A. Roman Law (continued) Mon. and Fri., at 12 ff “ * I or Exeter, Queen’s, Bentham (possibly) Examination Paper (pos- sibly). Wed. and Sat., at 11 )-St. John’s, Wadham, Wed. and Sat., at 12 and Keble Colleges. J fE. A. Whittuck, M.A. As above - As above As above f For Oriel and Lin- ( coin Colleges. J A. C. Hamilton. M.A. - The Law of Real Pro- perty. Tues. and Thurs., at 9.45 Brasenose - [ For Brasenose Col- The English Law of Con- tracts. Wed. and Sat., at 9.45 - r lege. ^ The name of one gentleman who lectures upon law to members of.several colleges was, by his own desire, omitted from this list. N.B. — The Professors’ lectures are open without fee to any member of the university. The College lectures are open only to members of those colleges for which they are respectively stated to be intended ; except that courses marked * are also open, without fee, to students unattached; •f are also open to any member of the university on payment of a terminal fee of IL ; i are also open to any member of the university by special arrangement with the lecturer. 3 D 2 396 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — APPENDIX. Handed in by the Principal of St. Edmund Hall. A. B. May 18/6, St. Edmund Hall, Oxford. Arrangements are made for the admission of students either on the fi.xed payment system, or on the ordinary system of caution deposits and payments at the close of the term. Members are free to choose whichever system they prefer, and they may change from one system to the other at the close or commencement of any term. Fixed Payment System. On this system the whole annual payment amounts to 81/. (including 1/. for university dues), and each under- graduate pays at the commencement of each term 27/., the terms being counted as three in a year (Easter and Act together being equivalent to one). This sum includes board, the rent of furnished rooms, tuition, university dues and rates, all payments to servants, and all charges to the hall, except 41. !ls. on taking a degree. X.B. — There is no entrance fee or caution deposit. Board includes three common meals each day, viz. : — Breakfast, with meat or two eggs. Luncheon (bread, butter, and cheese). Dinner. Under the head of extras are, — (1) Beer and pastry; (2) meat (if any) at luncheon; (3) tea, coffee, milk, *&c. if served in private rooms; (d) coal, candles, soap, &c. so far as required in private rooms ; ( 5 ) laundress; ( 6 ) fines in the gate bill (if any); ( 7 ) entertainment of any fidends at the common meals. With the exception of (4) and (5), these extra expenses are entirely optional. The charge for extras, so far as they are supplied froin the hall kitchen or buttery, is regulated by a printed tariff supplied to each member. Tuition. — This includes admission to all the lectures given to the members of Queen’s College (together with the lectures of other colleges in the combined list with Queen’s*), as well as those given in the hall. Furniture. —There is no charge for furniture exce])t in the case of undue damage, which will be estimated by a professional valuer. Residence. — The period of residence covered by the fixed payment is three terms of eight weeks each. Residence in vacations will involve an extra charge for board, &c. of 4s. a day. University Dues and Rates. — Under this head are included the annual university dues, poor and local hoard rates, &c. but not the matriculation fee (2/. 10s.), or fees for the university examinations and degrees. On this system, and from the data above given, it is possible to calculate beforehand almost precisely the cost of the whole university course of three years. Caution Deposit System. On this system each undergraduate pays — At entrance ; £ s. d. Entrance fee - - - -500 Caution deposit (returned whenever the name is removed from the books of the hall) - - - -14 0 0 Purchase of furniture (this going to the previous tenant) say - - - 15/. to 21/. Or furniture may he hired from the hall, if it is j)referred, but in this case the caution deposit is 21/. At the close of each term (three in a year) : ^ s. d. Tuition (as above) and hall officers - 5 5 0 Hall servants - - - - 1 3 6 Establishment charges - - - 2 2 0 University dues and poor rate (say) - 0 14 0 Room rent (according to site) one third of - - - - 8/., 10/., or 12/. To these items have to be added laundress, batells (or board), and fuel. The extras on this system (not included in the payments made to the hall) are groceries and lights, and an extra terminal fee of 1/., ])aid personally to the bedmaker. All the other items mentioned above as extras in the prepay- ment system are already included (so far as they may happen to have been incurred) in the terminal batells bill. Further information as to the details of either system will be supplied by the principal. Both systems are now in regular operation in the hall. * This list includes lectures at University, Merton, Oriel, Lincoln, Corpus, Sliipdah.'n, Brasenose, Jc-sus, and tVadham. In reference to the proposal to set apart funds for the establishment of exhibitions to be sjiecially restricted to unattached students [see University of Oxford Bill, cl. 15. (8)], the undersigned wish to call attention to the following points : 1 . There is no security that unattached students as such are specially in need of pecuniary assistance ; and as a matter of fact that body of students does not now consist at all exclusively of persons in that position. 2. There are many other needy students, (especially at the halls, most of which are without help from endowments for sueh students,) who are living with the strictest economy, and in many cases have very great difficulty in continuing their university course at all. The proposal amounts to a species of “ protection ” of a particular institution, and is unjust to other bodies which have been for some years past exerting themselves to promote and carry out economical education. These are entirely ignored by this proposal, though some of them consist more uniformly of frugal students than the un- attached body does. 4. Finally, it is disadvantageous to the recipients of such assistance to compel them to remain in the position of unattached students, in case they should have become able to join, and should be desirous of joining, some college or hail. It is suggested that it would be preferable to empower the Commissioners to make provision generally for the assistance of poor students at the university. (a) either by appro])riation of new funds ; (/3) or by attaching the condition of need of assistance ” to a portion of the numerous scholarships already created. Note. — If the latter alternative be adopted, the stipends of the scholars might with advantage be reduced, and their number increased. Armstrong, E., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Queen’s College. Baker, G. E., M.A., Fellow of Magdalen College. Barrow, E. P., M.A., Oriel and St. Mary Hall. Barton, A. T., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Pembroke College. Baynes, R. E., M.A., Senior Student of Christ Church ; Lee’s Reader in Physics.* Bellamy, J., D.D., President of St. John’s College. Boase, C. W., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Exeter College. Bradley, G. G., M.A., Master of University College.* Bramley, H. R., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Magdalen College. Bulley, F., D.D., President of Magdalen College. Burrows, M., M.A., Fellow of All Souls’ College; Chichele Professor of Modern History. Bywater, Ingram, M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Exeter College. Chandler, H. W., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Pembroke College ; Waynflete Professor of Moral and Metaphysical Philosophy. Chapman, E., M.A., Natural Science Tutor of Magdalen College. t Chase, D. P., M.A., Principal of St. Mary Hall and Fellow of Oriel College. Chavasse, A. S., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of University College.* Cheyne, T. K., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Balliol College. Clarke, R. L., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Queen’s College. Cornish, H. IL, D.D., Principal of New-Inn-Hall. Cruttwell, C. T., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Merton College.* Dallin, T. F., Tutor and late Fellow of Queen’s College. Deane, H., B.D., Fellow and Lecturer of St. John’s College. Dill, S., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Corpus Christ! College.* Dodgson, C. L., M.A., Senior Student and Mathematical Lecturer of Christ Church.* Driver, S. R., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of New College. J Dukes, E. R., M.A., Christ Church and St. Mary Hall. Edwardes, S., M.A., Fellow of Merton College.* Elliott, E. B., B.A., Fellow and Mathematical Lecturer of Queen’s College. Evans, E., M.A., Master of Pembroke College. * Excepting both suggestions, t Excepting the note to suggestion (P). t Excepting suggestion (a). university of OXFORD COMMISSION : — APPENDIX. 397 Fowler, T., M.A., Fellow of Lincoln College; Professor of Logic.* * * § Fowler, W. Warde, M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Lincoln College. Freeling, G. N., M.A., Fellow and Dean of Merton College.* Gandell, R., M.A., Fellow of Hertford College ; Laudian Professor of Arabic. George, H. B., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of New College. f Green, M. H., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Trinity College. Griffiths, J., M.A., Fellow and Assistant Tutor of Jesus College.* Grose, T. H., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Queen’s College. Grundy, C. H., M.A., St. Edmund Hall. Hall, F. H. M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Oriel College.* Hammond, C. E., M.A., Lecturer and late Fellow of Exeter College. Hansell, H., M.A., Fellow of Magdalen College. Harcourt, A. G. V., M.A., Senior Student and Tutor of Christ Church ; Lee’s Reader in Chemistry. Hatch, E., M.A., Vice-Principal of St. Mary Hall. Hill, R. H., U.C.L., Magdalen College. Holland, H. S., M.A., Senior Student and Tutor of Christ Church.* Hopkins, T. H. T., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Magdalen College. Hughes, W. H., M.A., Fellow of Jesus College.* Illingworth, J. R., M.A., Tutor of Kehle College.fj Ince, W., M.A., Fellow, Tutor, and Suh-Rector of Exeter College. Jackson, W., D.D., Provost of Queen’s College. Jayne, F. J., M.A., Tutor of Kehle College. f Kidston, J. W., M.A., Queen’s College. King, J. R., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Oriel College. Knox, E. A., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Merton College.* Laing, R., M.A., Fellow of Corpus Christi College. § Liddon, H. P., J).D., Student of Christ Church; Dean Ireland’s Professor of Exegesis.il Lightfoot, J. P., D._D., Rector of Exeter College. Little, W., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Corpus Christi College.* Livingstone, R. G., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Pembroke College. Lock, W., M.A., Fellow of Magdalen College ; Senior Tutor of Kehle College. Lovell, G. F., M.A., Balliol College; Vice- Principal of St. Edmund Hall. Macray, W. D., M.A., New College. Madan, A. C., M.A., Senior Student and Tutor of Christ Church. Magrath, J. R., M.A., Senior Fellow and Tutor of Queen’s College ; Senior Proctor. Mee, J. H., B.A., Fellow of Mei’ton College. Metcalfe, F., B.D., Fellow of Lincoln College. Michell, R., D.D., Principal of Hertford College. Moore, E., B.D., Principal of St. Edmund Hall. Moore, \V., M.A., Fellow of Magdalen, and Lecturer of St. John’s College. Moore, A. L., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of St. John’s College. § Mowatt, J., M. A., Fellow and Lecturer of Pembroke College. Nutt, J. W., M.A., late Fellow of All Souls’ ; Sub-Librarian of Bodleian Library. Ogle, H. C., M.A., Fellow of Magdalen College. Palmer, E., M.A., Fellow of Corpus Christi College ; Pro- fessor of Latin. Plummer, C., B.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Corj)us Christi College. § Priest, W. J., M.A., Vice-Principal of St. Alban Hall. Raj)cr, R. W., M..\., Fellow and Tutor of Trinity College. Richards, F. T., M.A., Lecturer and late Fellow of Trinity College. Rigaud, J., B.D., Fellow of Magdalen College. Salter, W., M.A., Principal of St. Alban Hall. Sargent, J. Y., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Magdalen College. Sayce, A- H., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Queen’s College. f Sidgwick, W. C., M.A., late Fellow and Tutor of Merton College.* Spooner, W. A., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of New College.f Spurling, F. W., M.A., Tutor of Keble College.fJ Talbot, E. S., M.A., AVarden of Keble College.f Thompson, H. L., M.A., Student, Tutor, and Censor of Christ Church.* * Excepting both suggestions, t Excepting suggestion (a). J Excepting the note to suggestion (g). § Excelling suggestion (g). 11 Excepting suggestion (a), and “on the understanding that the claims of all unattached students who do not need such assistance should be fully recognised.” Thursfield, J. R., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Jesus College.* Tozer, H. F., M. A., Tutor and late Fellow of E.xeter College. Turner, E. T., M.A., Fellow and Vice- Principal of Brasenose College; Registrar of the University. West, W., M.A., Fellow of Lincoln College.* West, Hon. W. E. Sackville, M.A., Bursar of Keble College.l AVilson, J. M., B.D., President of Corpus Christi College,* AVilson, A. J., B.A., Fellow of Queen’s College. AVood, G., B.A., Fellow of Pembroke College. AVoods, H. G., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Trinity College. Aule, C. J. F., M.A., Fellow of Magdalen College. C. The undersigned are of opinion that if the Com- missioners under the Universities Bill are instructed to found university scholarships “for diminishing the expense “ of university education ,” — See Universities Bill Cl Hi. (11.)- (1.) The recipients of such scholarships should be required to show that they need assistance. (2.) They should not be required, as a condition of receiving or retaining such scholarshijis, to attach them- selves to any particular society or body of students within the university. Armstrong, E., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Queen’s College. Barrow, E. P., M.A., Oriel and St. Mary Hall. Barton, A. T., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Pembroke College. Bayne, T. Vere, M.A., Student and Censor of Christ Church. Bird, Reginald, M.A., Fellow of Magdalen College. Boasp, C. W., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Exeter College. Bodington, N., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Lincoln College. Bradley, G. G., M.A., Master of University College. Bradley, T. A., B.A., Fellow of Merton College. Bramley, H. R., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Magdalen College. Bright, AV., D.D., Canon of Christ Church, Regius Professor of Ecclesiastical History. Broughton, R., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Hertford College. Bulley, F., D.D., President of Magdalen College. Burrows, M., M.A., Fellow of All Souls College ; Chichele Professor of Modern History. Chandler, H. W., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Pembroke College; Waynflete Professor of Moral and Metaphysical Philosophy. Chapman, E., M.A., Natural Science Tutor of Magdalen College. Charsley, AV. H., M.A., Principal of Charsley’s Hall. Chase, D. P., M.A., Principal of St. Mary Hall and Fellow of Oriel College. Chavasse, A. S., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of University College. Cheyne, T. K., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Balliol College. Collins, G. AV., M.A., Keble College. Coolidge, AV. A. B., M.A., Fellow of Magdalen College. Cornish, H. H., D.D., Principal of New Inn Hall. Courtney, AA^. L., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of New ! College. Coxe, H. O., M.A., Worcester College; Bodleian Librarian. Dallin, T. F., M.A. Praelector and late Fellow of Queen’s College. Daniel, C. H., M.A., Fellow and late Tutor of AA’orcester College. Deane, IL, B.D., Fellow and Lecturer of St. John’s College. Ilukes, E. R., M.A., Christ Church and St. Mary Hall. Edwardes, S., M.A., Fellow of Merton College. Elliott, E. B., B.A., Fellow and Mathematical Lecturer of Queen’s College. Esson, AV., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Merton College. Evans, E., M.A., Master of Pembroke College. Evetts, W., M.A., Brasenose College. Ewing, R., M.A., Tutor and late Fellow of St. John’s College. Faussett, R. Godfrey, M.A., Student and Treasurer of Christ Church. * Excepting botli suggestions, t Excepting suggestion (a). 3 D 3 3.98 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; — APPENDIX. Fowler, T., M.A., Fellow of Lincoln College ; Professor of Logic. Fowler, W. Warde, M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Lincoln College. Freeling, G. N., M.A., Fellow and Dean of Merton College. Gandell, R., M.A., Fellow of Hertford College; Laudian Professor of Arabic. George, H. B., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of New College. Gore, C., B.A., Fellow of Trinity College. Green, M. H., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Trinity College. Grose, T. H., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Queen’s College. Hall, F. H., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Oriel College. Hammond, C. E., M.A., Lecturer and late Fellow of Exeter College. Harcourt, A. G. V., M.A., Senior Student and Tutor of Christ Church ; Lee’s Reader in Chemistry. Harrison, W. W., M.A., Brasenose College. Hatch, E., M.A., Vice-Principal of St. Mary Hall. Henderson, J. E., M.A., Fellow and Bursar of Magdalen College. Henderson, P. A., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Wadham College ; Junior Proctor. Hopkins, T. H. T., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Magdalen College. Illingworth, J. R., M.A., Tutor of Keble College. Ince, W., M.A., Fellow, Tutor, and Sub-Rector of Exeter College. Jackson, W., D.D., Provost of Queen’s College. Jackson, W. W., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Exeter College. Jayne, F. J., M.A., Tutor of Keble College. King, J. R., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Oriel College. Knox, E. A., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Merton College. Laing, R., M.A., Fellow of Corpus Christ! College. Leudesdorf, C., M.A., Fellow of Pembroke College. Liddon, H. P., D.D., Student of Christ Church ; Dean Ireland’s Professor of Exegesis. Lightfoot, J. P., D.D., Rector of Exeter College. Linton, Sidney, M.A., Wadham College. Livingstone, R. G., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Pembroke College. Lock, W., M.A., Fellow of Magdalen College; Senior Tutor of Keble College. Lovell, G. F., M.A., Balliol College; Vice-Principal of St, Edmund Hall. Macray, W. D., M.A., New CoUege. Magrath, J. R., M.A., Senior Fellow and Tutor of Queen’s College ; Senior Proctor. Mee, I. H., B.A., Fellow of Merton College. Merry, W. W., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Lincoln College. Monro, D. B., M.A., Vice-Provost of Oriel College.* Moore, E., B.D., Principal of St. Edmund Hall. * Mr. Monro adds that there should be some security, such as a certificate from their college or ihall, that their college expenses are moderate. [This would probably be generally allowed. — E. M.] Morice, T. D,, M.A., Fellow of Queen’s College. Mowatt, J., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of Pembroke College. Nutt, J. W., M.A., late Fellow of All Souls’ ; Sub- Librarian of Bodleian Library. Ogle, H. C., M.A., Fellow of Magdalen College; Head Master of Magdalen College School. Ogle, Octavius, M.A., late Fellow of Lincoln College. Palmer, E., M.A., Fellow of Corpus Christ! College ; Professor of Latin. Papillon, T, L., M.A., Fellow and Lecturer of New College. Price, Bonamy, M.A., Worcester CoUege; Professor of Political Economy. Priest, W. J., M.A., Vice-Principal of St. Alban Hall. Purcell, E., M.A., Lincoln College. Raper, R. W., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Trinity College. Rawlinson, G., M.A., Exeter College; Camden Professor of Ancient History. Richards, F. T., M.A., Lecturer and late Fellow of Trinity College. Richmond, Wilfrid J., M.A., Tutor of Keble College. Rigaud, J., B.D., Fellow of Magdalen College. Robarts, C. N., M.A., St. John’s College. Robertson, A., B.A., Fellow of Trinity College. Russell, J. W., M.A., Fellow of Merton College. Salter, W., M.A., Principal of St. Albert Hall. Sayce, A. H., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Queen’s College ; Deputy Professor of Comparative Philology. Scott, G. R., M.A., Fellow of Merton College. Shaw-Stewart, J. A., M.A., Bursar of Keble College. Shepherd, A. J. P., B.A., FeUow ot Queen’s College. Spooner, W. A., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of New College. Spurling, F. W., M.A., Tutor of Keble College. Stubbs, W., M.A., Oriel College ; Regius Professor of Modern History. Talbot, E. S., M.A., Warden of Keble College. Thompson, H. S., M.A., Student, Tutor, and Censor of Christ Church. Thorley, G. E., M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Wadham CoUege. Tuckwell, H., M.D., Lincoln College. Wallace, W., M.A., FeUow and Tutor of Merton CoUege, Wayte, S. W., B.D., President of Trinity College. West, W., M.A., FeUow of Lincoln CoUege. West, Hon. W. E. Sackville, M.A., Christ Church ; late Bursar of Keble CoUege. Wilkins, H. M., M.A., FeUow of Merton CoUege. Willert, P. F., M.A., FeUow of Exeter College. Wilson, A. J., B.A., Fellow of Queen’s CoUege. Wilson, J. C., M.A., Lecturer of Exeter and Queen’s Colleges. Wood, G., M.A., FeUow of Pembroke CoUege. Woods, H. G., M.A., FeUow and Tutor of Trinity CoUege. Wordsworth, John, M.A., Tutor and late Fellow of Brasenose CoUege. Wright, T. H., B.A., FeUow of Merton CoUege. Yule, C, J. F., M.A., FeUow of Magdalen College. I have received authority to affix all the above signatures. — E. Moobe. March 17, 1877. Handed in by Mr. Thuksfield, 27th October 1877, Combined College Lectures. Honour School of Liteb.e Humaniores. Subject. Lecturer. Place. Time. Ethics of Aristotle, Book I. - Mr. Thursfield Jesus Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, at 10. Ethics of Aristotle, Book I. - » Magrath Queen’s Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, at 10. Ethics of Aristotle, Book I. - )> Wilson Oriel - Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, at 10. Republic of Plato, Book ViU. 5 > Parsons Magdalen Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, at 10. Republic of Plato, Book 1. - » Henderson Wadham Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, at 10. Republic of Plalo, Book I. - 5) W allace Merton Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, at 10. Politics of Aristotle, Book I. - » Thorley Wadham Tuesday and Thursday, at 12. Political Philosophy . - - V Scott Merton Tuesday and Thursday, at 1 1 . Political Philosophy - - - 9> Whittuck Brasenose Wednesday and Saturday, at 10. Logic - - - _ - Philosophy of the Stoics and Epi- Wilson - Oriel - Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, at 10. cureans - - - - Wallace Merton Wednesday and Friday, at 12. Early Greek History - Sayce - Queen’s Monday and Friday, at 1 2. Roman History, from 133 B.C. » Warde-Fowler - Lincoln Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, at 11. Roman History, the Empire - Allen - Magdalen Monday and Friday, at 11. Annals of Tacitus, Book I. - » W ard - Brasenose Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, at 11. The philosophical lectures in the above course are open to members of Merton, Oriel, Queen’s, Lincoln, Magdalen, Brasenose, Jesus, and Wadham; the historical lectures to members of the above colleges and of Corpus. The lectures are open to other members of the university by special arrangement. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — APPENDIX. 399 Handed in by Mr. Kitchin, 29th October 1877. Schedule of Attendance at the Classes of the Teachers in the Taylor Institution for Seven Years (Omitting all Students who only attended once). Year, Term. French. German. Italian. Spanish. Totals. Classes. Students. Classes. Students. Classes. Students. Classes. Students. 1870 M.T. - 3 5 3 19 2 7 1 4 45 1871 H.T. 3 17 3 15 2 4 2 5 41 E.A.T. - 4 17 3 12 2 3 2 7 39 M.T. - 3 15 3 17 1 2 1 4 38 1872 H.T. _ 3 18 3 17 2 8 2 8 51 E.A.T. - 3 8 2 6 2 5 1 4 23 M.T. - 3 7 2 10 2 7 2 5 29 1873 H.T. _ 3 21 3 31 2 7 2 7 66 E.A.T. - 3 13 3 19 2 7 2 6 45 M.T. - 3 8 3 13 3 5 2 5 31 1874 H.T. _ 2 11 3 15 3 12 3 4 42 E.A.T. - 2 14 3 11 1 4 2 6 35 M.T. - 2 15 3 30 1 3 2 2 50 1875 H.T. 2 9 3 20 2 10 2 6 45 E.A.T. - 2 7 3 14 1 2 1 2 25 M.T. - 1 1 3 12 1 5 1 3 21 1876 H.T. _ 2 7 3 20 2 5 2 3 35 E.A.T. - 2 8 3 15 2 9 1 1 33 M.T. - 2 8 3 20 1 1 0 0 29 1877 H.T. 3 19 3 20 1 5 1 4 48 E.A.T. - 3 11 3 19 2 4 1 2 36 M.T. - 3 19 3 15 2 11 2 4 49 Averag es - Fren ch, 12 - 1 - Gern lan, 16 -e Italia n, 5^ Spar lish, 4 + 39- Handed in by Me. Salwhy. Christ Church, Oct. 22, 1877- Whereas the Commissioners are at present considering the question of university requirements, and these requirements can hardly be considered fully without reference to the instruction provided by the colleges, and as Christ Church in particular already possesses readers in special departments, such as natural science and law and history, who also stand to their pupils in the relation of college tutors, we, the teaching staff of Christ Church, beg leave to state our opinion that no provision for university requirements should interfere with the tutorial system, or supersede the e.xisting readerships at Christ Church. J. Barclay Thompson. A. C. Madan. Edwd. F. Sampson. Henry Scott Holland. G. W. Kitchin. S. J. Owen. A. Vernon Harcourt. Herbert Salwey. Richard Shute. Reginald W. Macan. Fredk. York Powell. Robert E. Baynes. William Warner. Francis Paget. Henry Nettleship. J. A. Stewart. Handed in by Dr. Kolleston, 2nd November 1877. On the Constitution of Electoral Boards. I have put into print certain views as to the constitution of boards for the election of professors and sub-jirofessors, hoping that members of the Association for the Organisa- tion of Academical Study may hereby have their attention drawn at once to the subject. The dogmatic form which I have adopted, for the sake of brevity, makes it proper that I should not omit to state that the views which I put forward as my own are founded upon the principles and evidence contained in the Rector of Lincoln’s “ Suggestions as to Academical Organisation,” p. 211-227, and in Sir Hamilton’s Article on “ Academical Patronage and Super- intendence.” (“ Edinburgh Review,” April, 1834. “ Discus- sions,” p. 348-385.) 1 hold, first, that whilst separate boards should be created for the election of professors and sub-professors in the separate faculties, the Vice-Chancellor of the university should, first, as being the individual within the university who is most amenable to the influence of its public opinion, and, secondly, as giving a certain continuity and solid- arity to the operations of such boards, be a member of every one of them. It is obvious that certain alterations may be advisable as to the mode in which appointments to the ofiice of Vice-Chancellor are made at present. But I will not consider this here ; and now I hold, secondly, that the number of each Electoral Board should, inclusively of the Vice-Chancellor for the time being, be neither more or less than five. With this number of electors we have no need of a casting vote, and we have responsibility neither too much diluted, as with larger, nor too much concentrated, as with smaller boards. I hold, thirdly, that in the constitution of these Electoral Boards, it is indispensable to secure adequate representation for the public opinion, not only of the resident body in the university, but also for that of the outside world, and for that, in the third place, of the experts in each subject. The public opinion of the university would be represented m the first instance by the Vice-Chancellor, but secondly by two other persons on the board, one of whom I think it is but just that the college finding the funds for each chair or sub-chair, shall have to represent it in the Electoral Quinquevirate ; whilst the other might be, as has been sug- gested to me, a resident professor delegated ad hoc by his colleagues in pari materie. The opinion of the outside world should be represented by two persons who should be eminent for their knowledge of the special subject con- cerned, but who from not being in any case members of the professoriate would usually be non-residents, and would thus serve at once as representatives of the public opinion of the outside world, and of that of the literary, scientific, or other interest with which their names would be associated. Experience has shown that it is not always an easy thing to get more than a couple of eminent and probably over- busy men, who do not happen to reside in a university, into the same room within or outside of its precincts at the same time for the purpose of calmly deliberating and de- liberately voting upon matters such as those I am writing about. Hence of the five members of each board, I sug- gest that three should be residents, to whom it would he point of honour to take special pains as to its working. Experience has, I believe, also shown that it is but a “ silly persuasion ” to think that personal eminence and attainments render their possessor superior to the influences of personal jealousy. Hence practical men will demur to allowing professors to coopt a future colleague, and will prefer, in most cases, though possibly enough not in all, non-resident to resident experts. George Rollkston. 3 D 4 400 UNIVKRSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: AlM’ENDtX. (a.) The recently ])roposed Changes in the Examina- tion Statute. The two proposals for altering the statute regulating the final e.'caminations for honours which were brought forward and rejected on 'I'lnirsday last, June 4, recommended them- selves to some ])ersons on the ground that if carried into effect they would lengthen on the one hand the time avail- able for teaching and learning in the two winter terms, and would shorten on the other that available, and now em- ployed, for very different jnirposes in the summer term. The first of the changes proposed, that by which the e.xaminations in question were to be held but once in the year, had the additional recommendation in its favour of being calculated to raise tlie value of the classes it would assign ; whilst the second, in accordance with which the work of examining would be carried on out of term-time, would have saved the men who undertake it from having to do so, as has been and must often be the case, with great inconvenience, and even with loss both to their pupils and to themselves. But against holding the final honour examinations only once in the year, it may be urged, and with much force, that great hardship would inevitably and not unfrequently be caused by such regulations in the cases of students who might, by whatever cause, he prevented from presenting themselves when their last chance [as by provision of New Examination Statute (Statt. Tit. v. vi. sect. i. c. 1., 4) ]). 35, New Exam. Stat. ed. 18/4] came for so doing. As so much often depends upon the result of an examination, a man’s futiu-e career being in many cases very seriously affected by the class which he obtains, it may be said with some justice that it amounts to something like hard dealing to curtail a man’s fair opportunities for obtaining the best class of which he is worthy, such classes being, in Oxford at least, with their alphabetical order, certificates relating simj)ly to a man’s coming up to certain standards of attain- ment, and not as to his surpassing or being surpassed by certain other candidates. To this it is answered, but not as it seems to me entirely satisfactorily, that if a man on coming uj) to the university has it clearly set out before bim that he must go in for his class at one particular time, or at one of two fixed times, only, this assurance will keep him up to a jiroper level of attention and diligence more surely than any other plan will ; and that if when thus forewarned he fails to be ready, he will suffer no more than he will have to suffer for similar shortcoming, when he goes out into the battle of life. It is also said, that the second schools would be injured by the adoption of a plan which, by holding the final honour examinations only once a year, would inevitably tend to diminish the numbers of men who would, or indeed could as our statutes, 1. c. now stand, read for double honours in the final schools. And I feel very strongly that, though such a regulation would not diminish the numbers of the men who devote themselves to any non-classical school from the time of their moderations onwards, and though it would increase the value of the class lists in such schools, the loss to each and all of the second schools oi' men who had been through the Literal Humaniores School, and specially the loss to the Natural Science School of men who have been through the Mathematical School, would be little less than a calamity. All “ schools ” are more or less liable to be injured by a tendency to s])ecialisation the reverse of liberalising, and the second schools, being particularly so, would be eminently injured by being exposed to its uncounteracted influence. What I write to say is, that it seems to me to be possible to combine the advantages at once to our present system and of the rejected plans to unite the flexibility of the one with the regularity of the other ; to avoid inflicting occa- sional hardships on candidates, whilst also avoiding the curtailment of the time of teachers for teaching. What I should jirojiose is the abolition of the limitation by the university statutes of the time fur taking the first honours in the final schools to the sixteenth term. This limitation to the sixteenth term is of very recent date ; the limitation to the eighteenth term, which was previously in force, is also but a recent one in the eyes of many of us, including myself. And it is, I believe, a fact that when no rule whatever was enforced by the university as to lapse of terms disqualifying a man for candidature in the class schools, the average jieriod at which classes were obtained was an earlier one than that which has prevailed since. The objection that candidates who could afford to wait would have an unfair advantage over those who could not. would have some, though not perhaps very great, weight, if the Oxford class e.xaminations were, as they are else- where, competitive examinations. In our examinations we certify simply to the possession of certain grades of attainment by certain classes of candidates ; we say nothing of the merits of any one candidate relatively to those of any other in the same class ; and as regards the time or the means which the candidate may have employed in qualifying himself, the principle “ De non existentibus et “ de non apparentibus ” is one winch might with much advantage rule all examinations. I incline, however, in spite of all this, to think that the colleges might do well to enter upon some mutual agreement for the enforcement of some limitation by refusing to allow a man who jjostponed going in for his class beyond a certain term to retain his name upon their books. Candidates who did so fail to be ready to present themseh'es for examination would be com- pelled to join a hall, as was often the case in my own time, or to become unattached students : and though they might thus be put to considerable inconvenience, this inconvenience would be a much smaller evil than that arising from the present university limitation as to lapse of time. And whatever inconvenience or expense such failure to be ready might entail, would act as a healthy and natural stimulus in favour of taking the first honour examination at the time appointed for it, the advantages which are acknowledged to belong to holding the honour examinations only once in the year might then be secured without incurring the disadvantages which such a plan would entail whilst our limitation clause 1. c. remained unabolished. And I would suggest that the very readily ponderable fact of the honour examinations being held only once in the year would co-operate with the inter-collegiate arrange- ment I propose in keejiing men up to a due level of fixity and determination as to taking their examination in a certain term. For the postponement of an examination for a whole year would be seen to be a serious matter by candidates as also by their parents, both as to present expenses and future prospects, and it would not be lightly nor frequently done. And I suppose that when one can count upon naturally operating causes for producing on the average a certain total effect, it is unwise as well as superfluous to lay down fixed enactments for the same end. The changes 1 should j)ropose would be, first, the abolition of the clause in the university statutes, (New Exam. Stat. p. 25. ed. 18/4. § 1. 4,) which limits candi- dature by lapse of terms ; secondly, the holding of the final honour examinations once instead of twice in the year ; thirdly, the beginning of all of those examinations upon the 1st of June; fourthly, the beginning of the two winter terms upon the 15th of October and the 15th of January respectively, and the ending of them upon the 20th of December and the 30th of March respectively ; fifthly, the division of the summer term into two portions, one, during which all persons in statu pupillari would reside, to commence on the 15th of April and to end on the last day of May ; the other to commence on the fir.st of June and to be devoted to examinations. A good deal would be done by the adoption of this jdan towards neutralising the strength of the temptations to idleness which the warmer part of the summer term brings with it, and which sometimes result in the formation of habits of systematised self-indulgence. Whilst diminishing on the one hand an excess of play, it would diminish on the other the excess of work, which our present system of having examinations held in term-time produces. Term- time must he a time of severe pressure, when men who have devoted laborious lives to university work, and specially to teaching work, complain that they have no leisure for discussion upon a subject of such importance as the examination system. Leisure for discussion, I am well aware, is only a good when there is necessity for dis- cussion. But that necessity for the discussion of our examination system exists* is, I think, clear ; the experience indeed of Cambridge, as recorded in Mr. Todhunter’s book, “ The Conflict of Studies,” proves this very strikingly. Without endorsing all the opinions put forward in that book, I am well assured that it contains much which may be read by all of us with much profit ; especially would I refer to Chapter ii., and to the pages from page 23b to the end of the book. George Rolleston. Oxford, Tuesday, June .h, 18/4. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — APPENDIX. 401 (i8.) Extract from Pamphlet circulated by Dr. UOLLESTON on INDIAN CiVIL SerVHCE STATUTES proposed to University in May 1877, p- 8-9. As regarded the intercalation of a fourth term in the long vacation, I could say that it nas to he deprecated both in the interests of work and of rest. There were ))resent many men who could testify that the requirements upon their time during the terms were such as to leave them absolutely no ojiportunities for increasing their own stock of knowledge ; and unless a man went on constantly teaching himself, he very shortly became very unfit to teach others. The long vacation was the only time in a place with as little division of labour as Oxford in which any j)iece of original work, however small, could be successfully attempted. It was a total misnomer to speak of the long vacation as being a six months’ vacation, at least in the English universities ; hut a clear three months vacation from teaching was absolutely necessary for men who had so much to do in the way of teaching and examining during the terms. A clear three months’ vacation I could with the greatest seriousness and with some considerable ex- ])eriencesay to he even more necessary in the very numerous cases of men who get overworked in this place. Men in this condition did not recover their right tone of mind, nor their normal state of brain, unless they could get a clear interval of some such length from their duties here. We had had abundant experience of this, and so had other universities.* * I take tins op|)ortunity of saying that, whilst I am entirely opposed, and for the gravest reasons, to shortening the long vacation, I am strongly in favour of lengthening our terms ; of course the two ends are compatible, as the subjoined schemes will show. The Rector of Lincoln, who in his invaluable “Suggestions on Academical Organi* .sation, “ISGS, has said, page 314, “ The long vacation affords the only opportunity which an actively-engaged teacher has of refre.shing hi's “ teaching by a recurrence to its sources," propo.ses in the very same connexion a substantial addition to the length of the academical year,** This addition he would attain by having two terms of residence in the year instead of three; the first of which two terms should begin 10th of October and end 2.3rd of December, the second should begin 14th of .January and end 1st of June, whilst the examinations should be held only once in each year, and in the month of jMay. Mr. Kitchen has proposed a .somewhat similar plan, and I, with the plans of both these gentlemen before me, suggested in a paper published June !», 1874, a scheme differing in no essential from the Rector*s, except in the substi- tution of the word June for May in his plan as above quoted. A statute drawn up in the sense of some of these suggestions was rejected by the university in the summer term of 1874, but this decision is not' irre- versible. Sir Robert Christison, in a paper on medical education pub- lished June 30, 18G9, in the Medical CouiiciTs Report on Professional Education, proposes to re-arrange the sessions for medical students, so as to give them two equal sessions of four mouths each, with an interval of one month between them. The exigencies of the profession would require, I think, that one month in each of the four months’ sessions should be devoted to examinations. What is of imjiortance is to note that each and all of these plans leave the long vacation intact. (7.) The Examination Statute. As the arrangements of the examination statute are now under consideration, may I venture to suggest a scheme, which is not new hut perhajis not unworthy of attention. Should it be received favourably, it is proposed to circulate for signature a petition to council embodying the views here put forward. Can we not throw the main jiart of our examinations into the summer term ? Let us have two working terms of at least 10 weeks each, from the beginning of October to Christmas, and from early in January to Easter, — and then a short summer term of about six weeks, dedicated almost entirely to examinations. Let us have only one set of honour schools in the year ; and the same so far as is possible for passmen ; with bye-examinations (as at Cambridge) in the October term for those who have failed, or have been prevented by illness or other grave cause from offering themselves for examination in the jirevious summer term. Responsions might go on as at present. Then the men might pass moderations at the end of their second or third year ; and their second imhlic examination at the end of their third or fourth year. What are the objections to this plan ? These occur to me at once. 1. It is a great change. But it is a change only in detail, not greater than those now under consideration, and not affecting any- thing essential. 2. It lessens the facilities for passing now enjoyed by the men. They can now pass in their 12th, 14th, 16th, or 18th terms : according to this they are limited to their 12th or 16th. I supjiose there are some of us who would regard this as an advantage or at least as no objection. 3. A difficulty for double honour men, who would be obliged either to go in for classical honours in their 12th term, or both honours together (if possible) in their 16th. 4. Freshmen would all have to come up into residence at once, or nearly so. 5. It would over-work men and tutors to have a 10 weeks’ term. On the other hand what are its advantages ? 1. Two lengthened terms of solid undisturbed work. 2. A more compact residence in each year without extra expense, the Christmas and Easter vacations being so much contracted as to allow continuous residence (if desired) without inconvenience from October till the summer examinations; while the long vacation is not touched. 3. The sum total of residence rather shortened, for honour men at hast. 4. Greater uniformity of work, and a more systematic university education would become jiossihle, together with a considerable relief to both tutors and men. 5. Those colleges which desire to have an educational system of their own would once more have a chance of carrying it out. 6. The whole examination system, now so comjilicated would he somewhat simplified. 7 . The strain upon the examining resources of the university would be lessened. 8. A place in the class list would he worth more. The lists are felt to he too numerous at present, and to damage one another. 9. The idleness and luxury of the summer term would be checked ; the men would have much more to do, and the term would be shortened, so as to end before hot weather usually sets in. G. W. Kitchin. (5.) Tabular View of Plans for Arrangement of Terms and Vacations and Examinations. Proposed by The Rector of Lincoln, ‘ Suggestions on Academical The Rev. G. 'W. Kitchin, Sir Robert Christison, Report on Professorial Dr. Rolleston, Organisation,” in Paper annexed. Education, in Paper annexed. p. 314. Medical Council, 1869. Michaelmas Term. Michaelmas Term. Winter Term. Michaelmas Term. Oct. 10 — Dec. 23. From beginning of October, Four months. Oct. 15— Dec. 20. Christmas Vacation. to Christmas. Spring Vacation. Christmas Vacation. Dec. 24 — Jan 13. Christmas Vacation. One month. Dec. 21 — Jan. 14. Hilary Term. From Christmas to early in January. Summer Term. Hilary Term. Jan. 14 — June 1. Hilary Term. from early in January Four months. Jan. 15 — March 30. Long Vacation. Summer Term. to Easter. Three months. April 15— May 31. Summer Term. Six weeks devoted almost entirely to Examinations. Examinations Term. June 1, begin. Q 6223. Handed in by Mr. Lankester. ppENDix A. — Compiled from the German Universities Calendar for 1877-78. 402 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — APPENDIX. t- . II u cn o«2 o ^ s- xPh I I § §2 S5 t» cc :3 ja « b'o O g d p >P c/: O O :d uS d 4? S ^ ^ ^ <1> 3 ^ t cc a o W.t2 O-g h5 c« ■EPh « § a ^ 2 4> O U d 5 W W 0^ Oj ^ P«5 o d .2 a a E oj . l-sil ^wan ^ d X ^ cc t-3 • ^ 2 f . fcM 2 J.1 5 w ^ cS ^ ^ *d d SPh < ^ *42 M .2 'S3 O) 0> 3 5 O 3 w O si d c 3 S d s d ^ o-e^ s S K ^ a o) d be d d . d ^3 d £ 3 O) t/5 □ 05 6 h ° O 2 waW ;§! P o£ ns o 05 Sn e 05 a. d fcC^ i> 03 0) <5^ a WO ^•2 "3 fl -gfg % d « ' 2? 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""g be. a w 05 cs t- a rd K d a 4) d o rt o> P d CO >> a 00 5 4> 05 C^cd ^ o aap^z; w d Q a a ' 0 ' << . r-» oUg .a IS S aag >5 ,P 2'< d I 09 o d o n3 I 4^ ow» .a^S td ^ .S >- ^.2 « 03 a C s s 0i ^ .2 ^ >. ^ W N O t; o aSac 1.^‘S '«’E = s s 05 l3 •<-» o H d o o> “ ^ .2 cw 2 O 5 > &► *P5 *c a I a'sl d *^ © ■"^ ^25 H be c T3 C !3 T3 d 09 >% '-IS c s-t d Sh , £• o S “ § ^o2 q o >a , a ^ CLi o ^ d5 g " 8 "g o a S S Ph -m .. *'— «3 £>aS .2 03 o3 E 3 9 ©-*.»-** rd d d . o;^;5?; d H rO d d^ 8 ^ S'^ ^ IV d dP 3 O 3 o .d o g “S s :SP o d O dl O 4^ CN ^ {sLi? d 05 • ***- «+M *13 T3 ’S d ^ i Ss ^.S ; I S i s o H Is j c^ jh e ^ o 03 <5 .03 ‘ o ^ o o ^ CO 2 o © Ph - y-i O CO CO _ CO 43 *' u <4-1 o'$ .S2 P ^ c eS C O u ^ O w O 2fi;Q's „ ; r§ a 5 . oj a § . D .33 « 5 E “ 3 te Q 'O >, = ca ■"W S & CO ^ p O ^ 03 »“3S d3 H-^ 42 H C .2 ^ Is S p Om GO o Oh P V V 43 Xi HH Scotland (wth 3 ^ million inhabitants). ENGLAND(23millionsinhabitants). UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION ; APPENDIX. 403 Ai’pendix C. A Complete List of the Medical Faculties of the Universities of Great Hritain. The Professors of Physics, Chemistry, Botany, and Zoology are not included in the list, as not being exclusively medical. 'Oxford : (1.) Regius and Clinical Professor of Medicine: H. W. Acland, M.D., F.R.S. (2.) Linacre Professor of Anatomy and Physio- logy : G. Rolleston, M.D., F.R.S. Cambridge : ; (1.) Professor of Anatomy : G. M. Humphry, ' M.D., F.R.S. (2.) Professor of Medicine (Regius) : George E. Paget, M.D., F.R.S. (3.) Professor of Medicine (Downing): Peter \V. Latham, M.D. Durham : (1.) Professor of Medicine: G. H, Philipson. f Aberdeen : (1.) Professor of the Institutes of Medicine (Physiology) : W. Stirling, M.D. (2.) Professor of Practice of Medicine : J. W. F. Smith Shand, M.D. (3.) Professor of Anatomy : J. Struthers, M.D. (4.) Professor of Surgery : W. Pirrie, F.R.S. E. (5.) Professor of Materia Medica : Alexander Harvey, M.D. (6.) Professor of Midwifery : W. Stephenson, M.D. (7.) Professor of Medical Jurisprudence : F. Ogston, M.D. St. Andrews : (1.) Professor of Anatomy and Medicine: J. Bell Pettigrew, M.D. Glasgow : (1.) Professor of Materia Medica: J. B. Cowan, M.D. (2.) Professor of Surgery : G. H. B. MacLeod, M.D. (3.) Professor of Practice of Medicine : W. T. Gairdner, M.D. (4.) Professor of Midwifery : W. Leishman, M.D. (5.) Professor of Anatomy ; John Cleland, M.D. (6.) Professor of Institutes of Medicine (Physio- logy) : J. G. McKendrick, M.D. (7.) Professor of Pathology : Vacant. (8.) Professor of Forensic Medicine: Pierce A. Simpson, M.D. (9.) Professor of Clinical Surgery : G. Buchanan, M.D. (10.) Professor of Clinical Medicine: T. McColl Anderson, M.D. (ll.j Lecturer on the Eye : T. Reid, M.D. Edinburgh : (1.) Professor of Materia Medica: T. R. Fraser, M.D. (2.) Professor of Medical Jurisprudence : Douglas Maclagan, M.D. (3.) Professor of Surgery : James Spence. (4.) Professor of Practice of Physic : Grainger Stewart, M.D. (5.) Professor of Anatomy : Wm. Turner, M.B. (().) Professor of Pathology : W. R. Sanders, M.D. (7.) Professor of Midwifery : A. R. Simpson, M.D. (8."' Professor of Clinical Surgery: T. Annandalc, M.D. (9.) Professor of Institute of Medicine (Physio- logy) ; Wm. Rutherford, M.D. 'Dublin (Trinity College) : (1.) Professor of Physic (Regius) : William Stokes, M.D. (2.) Professor of Anatomy : B. G. MacDowell, M.D. (3.) Professor of Surgery (Regius): Wm. Colles, M.D. (4.) Professor of Surgery : E. H. Bennett, M.D. (5.) Unwersity Anatomist : T. Evelyn Little, M.D. Galway : (1.) Professor of Medicine : N. Colshan. (2.) Professor of Surgery : J. V. Browne. (3.) Professor of Materia Medica : Joseph Pye. (4.) Professor of Midwifery : R. Doherty. (5.) Professor of Anatomy : J. Cleland. Belfast : (1.) Professor of Medicine : J. Cuming. (2.) Professor of Surgery : A. Gordon. (3.) Professor of Materia Medica : J. S. Reid. (4.) Professor of Midwifery: R. Drill. (5.) Professor of Anatomy : P. Redfer Cork : (1.) Professor of Medicine : D. C. O’Connor. (2. ) Professor of Surgery : W. Tanner. (3.) Professor of Materia Medica : M. O'Keeffe. (4.) Professor of Midwifery : J. R. Harvey. (5.) Professor of Anatomy : J. J. Charles.^ Thus England, with seven times the population of Scotland, has not a properly supported medical faculty in any one of her three richly-endowed universities, Oxford, Cambridge, or Durham, whilst the Scotch uni- versities of Aberdeen, Edinburgh, and Glasgow have large medical faculties, as have also the Irish universities. Handed in by Dr. Andrew, (Qu. 5426.) UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD. Michaelmas Term. 1877. Examinations for the Degree of M.B. final examination. Medical Department. Monday, Dec. 3. — 10 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. Materia Medica. 1.30 to 4.30 p.m. Pathology. Medical Department. Tuesday, Dec. 4. — 9.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. Therapeutics. 1.30 to 4.30 p.m. Forsenic Medicine. Hygiene. Medical Department. Wednesday, Dec. 5. — 9.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. Midwifery, with Diseases of Women and Children. 1.30 p.m. to 4.30 p.m. Principles of Surgery. Radcliffe Infirmary. Thursday, Dec. 6. — 9.30 a.m Clinical Examination. 1.30 p.m. Practical Hygiene. Medical Department. Friday, Dec. 7. — 9.30 a.m. Classical Paper. Examination viva voce. first examination. Medical Department . Monday, Dec. 10. — 10 a.m. to 1 p.m. Paper on Physics. 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. Practical Chemistry. Chemical Department. Tuesday, Dec. 11. — 9.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. Paper on Chemistry. 1.30 to 4.30 p.m. Paper on Physics. Anatomical Department . Wednesday, Dec. 12. — 10 a.m. Practical Anatomy and Physiology. Anatomical Department. Thursday, Dec. 13. — 10 a.m. Anatomy and Physiology. Medical Department . Friday, Dec. 14. — 2 p.m. Flxamination viva voce. Medical Department. Saturday, Dec. 15. — 10 a.m. Examination viva voce. 3 E 2 T x\ 1) E X ACLAND, II. W., D.M. Arcliaeology, Museum of Art School - - - Biology ; — I’rofessors - - - Increase in plant, &e., necessary Bodleian - - - Botanical Garden - Pao-e 181 APPLETON — cont. - Question 3201-3204 3201 - 3155-317.') - 3176-3186 . 3202-3203 - * 3181-3186 Colleges, relation of (as to teaching), to the University ® 3187-3194 Demonstrator to assist Regius Professor of Medicine 3147-3148 Medical School (Practical) at Oxford - 3107, 3131, 3132, 3154 Natural Science School - - - 3109-3110 Pathology - - - 3113-3119, 3137,3138,3142 Physical Science : — Arrangements for teaching at Oxford - 3102-3106 Experiments on living animals - ' 3167-3170 Medicine : — Grants to Regius Professor for assistants - 3171 History of - - • " - 3111 Instruction in - - ■ 3108,3112-3114 Lectures on - - • _■ - 3111 Letter on scientific studies connected with - 3108 Practical School of - 3107, 3131, 3132, 3154 Professors : — ^ Anatomy and Physiologj’ - - - - 311o Assistant, residences should be provided for 3199, 3200 Biological Department, increase in, desirable 3155-3175 Clinical - - 3130-3131,3134,3135,3154, 3171, 3174, 3175 Comparative and National Health - Entomology - - * Ethnology - - - ‘ Hygiene - - - ‘ Invertebrate Anatomy and Zoology Medicine, Duties of Regius Professor Ophthalmology - - " Pathology, general and comparative ® 3137, 3147,3154,3171 Physiology - ■ ■ 3128,3165-3170 Residence of - 3120—3127,3139—3140,3148—3152 Special - - - ‘ " 3195-3198 Zoology and Invertebrate Anatomy - 3156-3164 Radelili'e Infirmary - - - ' 3107,3154 Library - - - ■ ' 3202-3204 Research - - - ■ ' ~ ol45 University: — Botanical Garden - - - • 3181-3186 Museum - - - ■ 3103-3104, 3108 Extension of - - ■ ", 31(6-3180 Relation of the, to Colleges as regards teaching 3187-3194 Vacations, closing of institutions during - 3152-3153 3128 3165-3168 3156-3164 - 3156 3165-3168 3156-3164 3128-3146 - 3196 3115-3119, ALDRED, P. F., M.A., B.C.L. Bodleian ) Collection of law books Codrington Library J Page 354 Combined Lecture system Recognition of by the University Fellowships - - - . Radcliffe travelling - - - . Professors : — Duties of in America Endowments . . . . Functions of - - 534-538, Readers: — - - - ■ Duties of - Endowments - . - . Relation of, to Undergraduates Research - - 522,528,531-534, Studentships - 539-543, 547-565, 588, 590- Election to - - - 543-545, Life Pensions for - - - . Relation of, to existing University Officers ■ Teaching - - - - Value of - University : — Recognition of combined Lectures by the Should have a voice in elections to College .534, 578 580, 584, 585 522, 530, 588 539-542 534-536 531, 534 569, 604-607 578-589 578 531 579 538, 542, 603 602, 608-614 556-563, 590 547 576-578 599 546 580, 584-585 Headships 573-575 Page 325 should be amalgamated Question 4884-4901 ARMITAGE, F., M.A. - Bodleian, Old French and Proven 9 al MSS. Question 4933-4935 Degrees should be conferred for modern Languages combined with other subjects 4937-4941, 4961, 4962 Fellowships should be awarded for modern Languages 4960 Modern Languages : — Examinations in Germany - 4914-4918,4971-4978 His own experience in teaching - - 4965-4970 More important than Greek or Latin - 4926-4927 Ofi’ered for degrees in German Universities- 4902-4907 Should have same advantages as Classics - 4937-4941 Teachers of, at public schools 4920-4925,4945-4947 Teaching of, in Germany - - - 4909-4913 Oriental languages, teaching of in Germany - - 4908 Professors : — One necessary for each language - 4942-4944 Teachers to assist - - - - - 4942 University:- — Adoption of German system of instruction in modern languages ... 4919-4925 Modern languages should be made a subject of examination in the schools 4948-4959, 4963-4964 Scientific instruction in modern languages necessary 4928-4932 Teaching of modern languages, present mode defective 4963 BARING, T. C., M.A. - - - - Page 352 Qtiestion Additional term in long vacation desirable - 5997-5404 Age at which men come to the University - 5391-5396 Residence required for a degree should be shortened 5381-5390 ANDREW, JAMES, D.M. - - - Page 334 Exhibition : Botanical, at Wadham College Medical, at Wadham College Fellowship, Medical - Medicine: — Clinical instruction - Course of study at Oxford - School of, at Oxford Teaching of - - Question 5430-5432 - 5422-5430 - 5423-5429 - 5438 - 5415-5421 - 5505-5409 - 5410-.5412 Professors : — Alterations in present staff - - - 5431-5435 Functions of Regius Professor of Medicine - 5439-5441 Radcliffe Infirmary - - - - -5412 Reader, Human Anatomy - - - 5436-5437 University, subject of first examination for M.B. degree 5413-5414 APPLETON, C. E. C. B., D.C.L. - - Page 29 College Headships: — Should be thrown open - Questio?i 566-568, 570-573 University should have a voice in elections to 573-575 College Tutors : — Duties of - - - - - - 578 Pensions for - - - - - - 530 BOASE, C. W., M.A. - - - - Page 76 Combined lecture system - Qaest/on 1253, 1269 Modern History: — Study of - - - - - 1273-4 Teaching of . . . . . 1260 Modern History School: — 1251-1252, 1255-1256, 1269 Examiners - - - - - -1254 Separation of l:iw school from - - - 1257 Professors, additional - . - . 1258-1268 Readers- - - - 1271-1272, 1275-1278 Research - - - - - - 1259 University, recognition of intercollegiate lectures - 1270 BRADLEY, G. G., M.A. - - - - Page 125 Classical archaiology, professor of - Questio?i 2141-2142 College teaching: — Advantages of - - - - - 2076 Drawbacks of - - - - - 2077 „ remedies for - - - - 2978 Not to be superseded by university teaching - 2075 College tutors: — Mode of appointment - - - - 2077 Prospect of advancement - - . 2091-2093 Relation to professors - . - 2100-2101 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — INDEX. 405 BRADLEY— co?j<. Combined lecture system Fellows, appointment of - Professors : — Additional - - - - Classical archaeology Lectures of ... Relation of, to college tutors Professorships, not necessarily permanent 2079-2092, 2105-2106, 2109 . 2077 Readerships Additional . . - Fees ... Tenable by college tutors - Research ... University : — Boards of studies Catechetical teaching Compulsory attendance at lectures BRIGHT, J. F., M.A. - College teaching Combined lecture system Modern History School Lectures Professors : — Additional - English literature - Indian history Readers Modern history Northern antiquities Political economy - Research . 2139-2156 . 2141-2142 - 2093-2099 . 2100-2101 - 2153-2156 2100, 2104, 2117-2125 . 2150-2152 - 2115-2116 2105, 2107-2114 . 2130-2138 2125-2129, 2139 - 2156 (end) - 2101-2103 Page 77 Question 1289 1282-1288, 1321-1327 1280-1281, 1294 - 1294 1295-8 1295-6 1295-6 1292, 1299, 1309-1315 . 1296 - 1296 - 1296 1290-1292, 1299-1308, 1316-1320 University system compared with college system - 1289 Page 263 - Question 4222-4229 BRIGHT, W., D.D. Modern History School Professorships ; — Additional, of Ecclesiastical History - 4211-4218 Attendance at lectures - - 4218-4220, 4231-5 Endowment of new - - - - 4240 Lectures in Ecclesiastical History - - 4226-29 Readership : — Ecclesiastical history ... 4221-5 Lectures to be treated as a professor’s - 4221,4230 Theological School ; — Course pursued in - - - - 4236-4239 Modern, as well as ancient ecclesiastical history is now much required in - 4220 BRYCE, J., D.C.L. .... Page 85 Age at which men come to the University Question 1433-1434, 1519 (end) Colleges : — Teaching at .... 1474-1480 „ should be transferred to University 1474-1477 Combined lecture system - - - - 1476 Law ; — Inns of Court, relation of, to the University 1420-1429, 1434-1439 Occasional courses of lectures - - 1464-1469 Relation of present course of, to examinations . 1440 Students of, number of, &c. - 1420, 1430-1432 Study of, at Universities ... 1470-1473 Teaching of, in Germany and America - 1441-1454 Professors : — Additional, of law .... 1455-1461 Lecture rooms .... 1481-1486 Mode of appointment ... 1507-1519 Readers in law ... 1462-1463, 1466 Research ..... 1487-1489 Unattached students .... 1496-1506 University : — Age at which men come to the 1433-1434, 1519 (end) Common fund for occasional lecturers, &c. 1487-1489 Educational system in English universities as compared with that of other universities - 1519 Examinations - - - -1477, 1519 Lecture rooms .... 1481-1486 Press ..... 1490-1495 Relation of the, to Inns of Court 1420-1429, 1434-1439 Teaching, irrespective of the Colleges - 1474-147 7 BURROWS, M., M.A. - Combined lecture system Colleges : — Accommodation for undergraduates Teaching of passmen Modem History School ; — Connexion with Ancient History School Introduction of modern languages into Professors : — Additional .... Archseology ... Attendance at lectures (compulsory) Duties of - Page 46 - Question 753, 754, 760-762 793, 794 781, 787-792 809-811 825-827 - 749 750, 808 753, 759-762 - 756 BURROWS— cont. English history „ literature Examiners, professors should be German ... Indian history Indian law ... Lectures ... Compulsory attendance at Importance of - Mode of Appointment Pensions, system of Protection of - . Readers Indian law ... Political economy . Research ... Unattached students - University Church : — Restoration of - Examiners ... Lodging-house sjstem Private tuition Teaching of passmen CAPES, W. W., M.A. - Ancient History: — Board of - 820-822 750, 806-807 758, 769-774 756-757 751, 812-824 751 763-768 753, 759-762 756 775-780 780 754-756 752 751 750 756 793 804-805 769-774 793,795-803 782-786 781, 787-792 Page 240 - Question 3894-3896 Ecole Franqaise at Athens and Rome 3918-3931 Teaching of, &c. - Travelling Fellowships Classical Archmology : Museum of - Professor of College lectures, &c. - Combined lecture .system 3880-3885, 3913, 3918 3922-3931,3955 - 3913-3915 - 3916-3917 3897, 3936-3937, 3939-3953 3802-3805, 3900-3904, 3911- 3912, 3932-3934, 3961-3963 - 3914 - 3886-3891 - 3892 - 3916-3917 - 3886-3891 3892-3896, 3905-3910 . 3935-3936 - 3897-3889 Demonstrator in archa;ology - Professors Additional . Classical archaeology Readers Additional - Payment of Should be college tutors University : — Board of professors and readers to regulate lectures - - - 3886, 3938, 3954-3958 German system .... 3958-3960 Lecture rooms - - - . . 3962 Should have larger share in teaching - 3888 CHANDLER, H. W., M.A. College teaching ,, „ of philosophy College tutors Professors : — Additional, undesirable Functions of - ~ Lectures - - . Philosophy - 1653, 1677-1679, 1704-1708 Readers in philosophy unnecessary - - 1670-1671 Research ..... Universities : — Foreign ..... Objects of - Value of mere presence of learned men in - Page 102 Question 1661-1663 - 1658-1660 - 1701-1703 1653, 1680-1684 - 1685-1700 - 1672-1676 1682-1684 1663-1669 1653-1657 - 1688 Page 219 Question 3572-3575 - 3565 3565-3585-3591 CHAPMAN, E., M.A. . College laboratories - Combined lectures Museum, physical laboratory - Physical science : — Demyships (Prize) at Magdalen 3580-3582, 3592-3604 Laboratory at Magdalen - - - - 3565 Preliminary honour examination - - 3582-3584 Students of, at Magdalen . 3567-3569,3575-3582 Teaching of, at Magdalen ... 3562-3566 Research ... 3565-3566, 3570-3574 Schools which send candidates for natural science scholarships - ... 3600 University, requirements of natural science - 3605-3606 school CHASE, D. P., M.A. Exhibitions for poor students - Halls : — History of - Mode of dealing with Scholarships for poor students Students, migration of CHEYNE, T. K., M.A. - Archaeology, museum of Professor of - Bodleian, publication of MMS. Page 36 Question 665-671 615-633 674-680 633-665 671-673 - Page 228 Question 3779-3781 - 3777 - 3790-3792 3 E 3 406 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — INDEX, CHEYNE-cok/. Students, &e. of Pal*ographj' Fellowships, special Hebrew - Hebrew : — Hody Scholarships Kennicott Scholarship Number of students of, in Oxford Professors of - - Rabbinic . ^ - Scholarships „ Travelling 3684-3701, 3710-3712 Study of, in Germanj' - 3700-3709, 3717- Study of, should not be connected with Theology 3678- - 3786- 3725,3727- - 3765- - 3723- - 3743- - 3759- Talmudic - Teaching of, at schools Pala;ography ■ Professors : — Additional Hebrew Archajologj' Hebrew Semitic History languages - 3754- - 3759- - 3786- - 3743 - 3777 3769-3776,3782 „ mugucigca - - Readers, of Talmudic and Rabhiuie Hebrew required 3754 Research - ... - 3735 Semitic History, Professor of - - 3777 Semitic languages ... - 3678 Professors of - - 3769-3776, 3782 Study of, in Germany - - - 3713- Universitj', teaching of Tulmudic - - 3754 3789 3742 ■3768 -3724 3726 -3753 3754 -3768 ,3727 -3720 -3680 -3758 -3764 -3792 3743 3777 -3753 -3778 -3785 -3758 -3736 -3778 -3686 -3785 -3722 -3758 CLIFTON, ROBERT B., M.A. - - Page 21 Colleges, Phjsical laboratories at - Question 445-446 Demonstrators . . . 456-458, 460-472 Engineering, teaching of at the university - 500-501 Fellowships ----- 489-499 Examination system of awarding - - 489-490 Terminable Mathematics, teaching of Physics : — Number of students, &c. Teaching of, &c. ,, in Germany Professors: — Additional - Experimental Philosophy, duties of Mechanics and Engineering Payment of, in Germany - Physics - - - Retirement compulsory Reader in Physics, Lee’s Research 491-493 512-514 - 471 435-439, 447-452, 515-516 483-487 University, Science Department of the 457-467, 470, 479-481 453-455 502-504, 517-521 509-511 456-457 505-508 473-478 439-445, 488 434-435 COXE, H. O., M.A. Ashmolean Bodleian : — Acta Eruditorum - Attendants : — Additional Present number of Salaries - Binding Books, annual outlay on Page 244 Question 4006,4029 4030, 4036, 4037 Money wanted for books - „ „ enlargement „ „ fitting up the schools „ „ salaries Oriental collections Reading Room - - - Relation to All Souls’ College Sub-Librarians, additional - Present number of EARLE — cont. Philological Studies, Board of - - 3545-3547 Professors : — Anglo-Saxon - - - 3517-3522, ,, duties of - 3529-3531, 3534- „ should not be connected with Modern History School - 3540- „ title not to he changed Celtic - - . - - 3523- - 3519, - 3554- English language - - . Modern Church History Readers : — Anglo-Saxon ... Celtic - - . . Ecclesiastical History Hebrew - - - . Romance languages Teutonic languages Theology - - - . Theology - - - - Title of Anglo-Saxon Professor not to be changed - - 3529- - 3521- - .3521 - 3520 - 3549 3561 •3538 •3544 3561 ■3524 3539 ■3561 3531 ■3522 3553 3552 -3522 -3521 -3551 3548 3561 ELLIS, ROBINSON, M.A. - - - Page 130 Boilleian : — Publication, &c. of MSS. - - Questio?i 2157-2158 Student Fellowship attached to - - - 2166 Philological research - - letter after evidence University should publish a learned paper - 2158-2164 FOWLER, T., M.A. Page 92 - Question 1568-1570 - 1570-1572 1547- 1549- 1556 1550 1562 - 1531 - 1549-1562 - 1545 1547 1548 1568 1546- 1547- 1567- - 1535-1537 - 3979, 3985 3982 3983, 3984, 3989-3998 3971, 3973, 3974, 3976-3979 3967 , expensive, should be bought - 3966, 4017 Catalogues - - - 4030-4035, 4038-4040 Coins . - - . - 3987,4000 Enlargement of •• - - - 4O03-4012 Income ----- 4018-4025 Loan of Book from - - - 3975 Medals - - - - 3985-3987,4000 - 3968-3970 - 4026-4028 - 3971 - 3999 - 4000-4001 - 4006 - 4013 3985, 4000-4002 - 3910 3979, 3981, 3987-3988, 3999 - 3971-3973 Salaries - Theft from Wants : — (1) English Books, (2) duplicates, (3) Foreign Literature, (4) money for actual yearly expenses - - - - 3964, 3965 Convocation House - - - - 4006-4010 Divinity School - - - 4006,4009-4011 Museum of Classical Antiquities 3985, 3986, 4004, 4005 Special libraries - - - 3966,4014-4016 EARLE, JOHN, M.A. - - - - Page 217 Anglo-Saxon, should not be one of the studies of Mod. Hist. School - - Question 3517-3518, 3525 Students of, at Oxford - - 3526-3588 Classical Archaeology, Museum of - - 3532-3533 Colleges - . - Headships of - - - - Higher teaching should be transferred to University _ - . - ]53i, 1568 Teaching of - - - - 1520-1531 College Tutors, prospect of advancement, &c. 1563-1568 Professors : — Classical Archmology - - - Functions of - - - - Lectures - - 1531-1534, 1537-1545 ,, compulsory attendance at - Residence of - - - Salaries ----- Readers - - - - 1531, Re.search - - - . - Unattached students - - - - University : — Examiners, appointment of, &c. Higher teaching should be undertaken by the - - - - - 1531, 1568 GEORGE, II. B., M.A. - - - - Page 286 Combined Lectures, attendanee at - Question 4507-4508 No fees taken. Lecturers paid by Colleges 4505, 4508-4510 System of, &c. - - - 4505-4517, 4520 Examiners should be better paid - - 4532-4535 Indian History, reader desirable - - - 4529 Modern History, Professors are doing work which is below them - - - 4517-4519 Teaching of, &c. - 4505-4516, 4521-4523,4528 Political Economy, reader should be appointed 4529-4531 Readers : — Additional required- - - 4524, 4529-4531 Leetures should be open to everybody - - 4519 Should be College Tutors - - 4519, 4525-4526 Should be independent of Professors - - 4527 Should have a definite Status in University - 4519 University, examiners should be better paid - 4532-4535 Occasional lectureships - - - - 453 1 GREEN, T. H., M.A. - - - - Page 200 College Tutors, evils of present system of appointing- - - Question 3307, 3309 Combined lecture system - - - 3314-3315 Fellowships : — Changes suggested in system of - - 3307-3309 Prize - . - - 3327-3338, 3351 Should all be terminable - - - 3309-3348 Tutorial ----- 3316-3318 Litt. Hum. School, subjects of examination in - 3307-3309 Readerships : — Duties of - - - - - - 3309 Mode of appointment to - - - - 3309 Relation to professorships - 3319-3326, 3348-3354 Special subjects - - 3310-3313, 3339-3343 Scholarships, changes suggested in system of 3307-3309 HARCOURT, A. G. Vernon, M.A. - - Page 320 Anatomy : — Lee’s Reader used to be the only teacher of Question 4879 Appointment to Lee’s Readership - - 4880—4883 Biolop - . - - 4851-4854, 4856 Chemistry ; — Not divided by subject matter as physics 4875-4876 Best adapted for college teaching - - - 4856 UNIVEKSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — INDEX. 407 IIARCOURT — cotil. Lee’s Reader: — In Anatomy (or biology) - - 4851, „ Chemistry - - 4842-4843, „ „ in relation to the Museum „ Physics - - - 4847-4859, Only one originally - - - - Letter from Lee’s Reader in Physics - Physics: — Elementary, can be taught in Colleges, more advanced, not so - - Knowledge of, even without Mathematics, useful . • - - - Research, Lee’s Reader has time and means for Space available in Christ Church for Lee’s Readers . - . - University duties to be assigned to Lee’s Readers - . - 4849, 4850, Work upon a specialty hinders tutorial work - 4878-4880 4873-4875 4843-4846 4864, 4865 4877-4879 - 4841 - 4847-4856 4867-4870 - 4866 - 4871-4874 4882, 4883 4860-4863 HATCH, E., M.A. Colleges, teaching of passmen at Exhibitions for poor Students - Flails - - - Professorship of Biblical Greek Scholarships for unattached students Unattached students, teaching of, &c. University: — Examiners - - - Teaching of Passmen by the HERVEY, LORD FRANCIS, M.A. Question 710 Page 43 709, 723, 726 - 739-742 - 743-745 - 746-748 - 739 ■713, 727-728 - 734-733 - 708-710, 713-738 HOLLAND, T. E., D.C.L., and ANSON, Siu W. R., M.A., B.C.L. - - - - All Souls’ College : — Connexion with study of law Fellowships - - - Law students Library . . - Bodleian, Law Books, &c., at - College Tutors, relation of to Professors - - 1052 Combined lecturers - - 1037-1049,1101,1107-1108 Fellows : — Law 1086 Professor of law should be, of All Souls’ - - 1083 Jurisprudence - Law : — Books English Examinations Lectures Lecture rooms Library Objects of study of - Occasional lecturers Oriental law Rooms for teaching staff Study of - Teaching of Professors: — Additional - Civil law Duties of English law - International law Jurisprudence ( irieutal law 991-992, 1001-1003, 1010-1011 - 997 - 1018 998 998 - 997, 1097 993-994, 998 Relation of, to college tutors - - - 1052 Residence of - 1018-1029, 1059-1063,1097-1098 Roman law - - - 999-1000, 1012-1013 Readers - - . . . 1010-1012 Jurisprudence ----- looo Oriental law- - - ' - - 993-994 University, Organisation of Professoriate - 1095-1096 INCE, W., M.A. College Tutors, relation of to Professoriate Combined Lecture System Does not apply to Passmen - Law, teaching of - Modern, History, teaching of - 2504 2523-2525 247-3, 2512-2515 2507-2511 2473-2478 2489-2490, 2502-2503 2474-2476, 2479, 2491 - Page 366 Halls: — Connexion with colleges - Question 5574-5580 Suppession of - - - - 5568-5573 Indian Civil Service candidates - - 5594-5600 Indian Institute - . . . 5592-5594 Semi-attached students - . . 5586-5589 Unattached students - - - 5580, 5589-5592 Scholarships for - . - 5581-5586 University : — Length of time required for taking a Degree 5557-5568 Press - . . - . 5546-5557 Residence during vacations - - 5559-5568 Page 144 Question 2473-2478 2478-2479, 2483-2496 - 2499-2501 - 2505 - 2506 INCE— cont. Natural science : Teaching of at Colleges „ „ Schools Professors : Additional Duties of - - . Relation of, to College Tutors • Readers : Additional - - . Relation of, to College Tutors - University : — Lecture.s, compulsory attendance at - 2481-2490 Teaching not to be entirely in hands of 2479-2480 „ of pa.“smen by - 2497-2501, 2516-2522 JACKSON, W. W., M.A. - - . Page 300 Professors : Should not have entire control of teaching Question Attendance at lectures of, should not be compulsory - - - . 4594 Readers : Appointment of, &c. ... 4594-4596 Colleges should be represented on Boards appointing - - - . 4594-4596 University : Attendance at Professors’ Lectures should not be compulsory - . . 4594 Boards for appointment of Readers - 4594-4596 Teaching should not be under sole control of the Professors Page 60 Question 1065-1094, 1111-1113 - 1086-1094 - 1075-1077 1074,1114-1128 1064, 1072, 1118-1122 1000, 1004-1007 1030-1032, 1050-1051 - 1103-1107 - 988-991,995-996 1052-1058,1109-1110 1065-1082,1112 - 1064-1065 - 987 - 1033-1036 - 1014-1017 - 1065 - 1101-1102 991, 1101-1102 JOWETT, B., M.A. Ashmolean - - - - Bodleian, accommodation in, &c. Classical Archaeology, Museum of - College Tutors, relation of, to Professors Exhibitions - - - . Fellowships : — Average tenure of - - Non-resident ... Prize - - . . Professors : — Additional - - - Colleges should pay Duties of - Election of - - - Fees - - . Lecture Rooms - - - Relation of, to College Tutors 2662-! Residence of - - - Radcliffe Library - . . Readerships : — Additional - . . Tenable with College Tutorships - Research - - . . Scholarships: — Fixed maximum age For new subjects - . - For unattached students 2615, 2618 4594 Page 152 Question 2597 - 2596-2597 - 2596 - 2662-2664, 2674-2676 - 2709-2710 - 2703-2705 2698, 2702-2703 2706-2708 2677-2687 2597 2673-2674 2688-2697 2662-2663, 2666 2589-2596 2664, 2674-2676 2671-2672 2596 2677-2687 2664-2670 2653-2661 Increase in number of Uniform value Semi-attached students Unattached students Hall and library for Lectures - - - Tutors - - - University : — Common fund - - - Extension of system in large towns Lecture rooms for professors Museum - - _ New Schools - - - Offices .... Requirements, &c. Tuition fees in Oxford - 2709-2712 2640-2644 •2619, 2627-2630, 2635, 2638 2604, 2631, 2640-2645 2629-2630, 2713 2604-2606 2604-2626, 2632-2640 2597, 2600-2603 2616-2618 2611-2615, 2620, 2626 2698-2702 2646-26.52 - 2589-2596 2596 2596, 2698-2599 2596 - 2712-2715 2604 JOWETT, B., M.A., Curator of Bodleian Library - Page 317 All Souls’ College, proposed connexion with Bodleian Question 4769-4778 Bodleian : — Accommodation required ■ - - 4825 Additions, alterations, repairs, &c. to building 4819-4825 All Souls’ College, proposed connexion with 4769-4778 Alterations : — Capital sum available for - - 4830 Cost of proposed - - 4826-4829 Anecdota and MSS., publication of - 4838 Archseological Museum - - - 4780-4790 Binding, additional cost of - - 4794-4796 Books, increased outlay upon - . 4791-4793 Building, additions, alterations, &c. necessary 4819-4825 Capital sum available for alterations - 4330 3 E 4 408 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION: — INDEX. OWETT— coni. Catalogue, classification of Cost of binding - - - Cost of proposed alterations Expenditure, proposed increase in Fireproof building for MSS. House for librarian 4769, Librarian - - 4769, 4774, Library, re-arrangement of - - MSS. and anecdota, publication of MSS., fireproof building for Savings, present and prospective - Selden library . - - - Staff - - Under librarians - - - - Law faculty, concentration of, at All Souls’ - Radclifi'e library - - - 4780 Theatre - - - • " University : — Ashmoleac - - - ' Convocation House - - - Press should promote publication of MSS. at 4797- 4794- 4826- 4831- 478.6- 4770, 4776- 4799- 4785- 4808- 4799, 4811- •4788, 4822- 4798 4796 4829 4837 4790 4772 4779 ■4807 4838 ■4790 ■4810 4819 -4818 4769 4775 4819 -4824 4819, 4828 4819, 4822 Bodleian 4838 KITCHIN, G. W., M.A., and WARD, G. S., Exhibitions Question 2747-2755, 2784, Halls;— Absorption of into colleges New Inn Hall should be sold Lodging houses " T " Medical officer for inspecting Number of undergraduates in Scholarships - - - Fixed maximum age Uniform value - - - Unattached students Age of - Censors, salary of - - Examinations, number of, necessary Exhibitions for - 2747-2755, 2784, Expenses of - - 2730 Halls for, in connexion with colleges Library and hall for Migration of - - 2733- Number of - - - Scholarships for - - 2747- Tuition and instruction of, 2716-2728, Tutors for . - . KITCHIN, G. W., M.A. Exhibitions - - - - Modern languages; — Number of students of - Study of - Should be a subject for examination M.A. Page 160 2795, 2800-2802 2826- 2805- - 2818- 2747-2755, - 2797- 2740- 2766- 2791- 2768 2795, 2800- -2732, 2803- - 2793- - 2757- -2736, 2741- 2719-2721, -2755, 2796- 2736-2740, 2773- 2790- 2826 -2828 -2825 2825 -2820 2796 -2799 2797 -2746 -2767 -2792 2772 -2802 -2804 -2794 -2766 -2745 2729 -2799 2756, -2793 -2791 Page 165 Question 2831 Professors ; — English literature - - - European literature Scholarships ... Taylor Institution ... Library at ... Teachers at - - - University, encouragement of study of 2830 2838, 2858-2861 in schools 2840-2848 - 2848-2851 2848-2852 - 2831-2835 2829, 2836-2839 2853 - 2854-2864 modern languages 2831 LAING, R., M.A. All Souls’ College - Anglo-Saxon Bodleian ... Classical Archaeology Combined lecture system Indian history Jesus College - - 1356 Law School - - - Modern History; — Ecole des Chartes at Paris Lectures - - - Students of - - Study of - • 1328-1335 Teaching of - - Modern History School Oriental department Requirements of, &c. Modern languages - Professors, additional Queen’s College Library - 1356- 1350, 1388, 1336, 1407- 1341-1343, 1398- 1390- 13.53- LANKESTER, E. R., M.A. - - - Page 337 Colleges: — Surplus revenue ... Question 5185-5188 Tuition funds .... 5191-5200 College teaching, relation of to University teaching 5147-5148 Combined lecture system - - - - 5148 Fellowships ..... (letter) Prize ..... 5189-5190 Medical School at Oxford - - 5201-5254, (letter) „ „ professors needed for - 520.5, 5206 Ph)’sical science ; — Teaching of, at Oxford - - - - 5148 „ in London ... 5163-5165 Professors : — - - - 5163-5173 - - - 5205-5208 - 5204-5208, (letter) 5211-5213, 5222-5224, 5226-5230 Lectures of - Medicine Salaries of - Radcliffe Infirmary University: — Boards of Studies or Faculties Matriculation examination - Museum ... - 5150-5174 (letter) - 5175-5185 Page 79 - Question 1396-1398 1357 1355-1358 1357 1337-1340 1417-1419 -1358, 1362-1364, 1398 1341-1343 LAWSON, M. A., M.A. - - - - Page 328 Botanical Garden: — Accommodation ... Question 5009-5012 Expenditure .... 5006-5008 Improvements .... 5002-5005 Proposed removal to Museum - - 4985-4988 Botany: — Attendance at professors’ lectures - Branches of, included in course of teaching - 4983 4989-4993, 4996-4997 4980, 501.3, 5020 - 5044-5048 - 4981 - 5022 4979, 5014-5016 - 4982 -1357 1394 -1409 -1401 ■1395 ■1354 1354 1355-1370 1331-1333, 1410-1417 1402-1406, 1409 1360-1367 1360-1361 Demonstrators ... Position of, in Natural Science School Professor of - - - Emoluments of - Mode of appointment, &c. Pre.sent duties too much for one man Readers: — One in Morphology and one in Physiology needed 4979, 5016-5019 Salary of ..... 5021 Students of ..... 4984 Term of 10 or 12 weeks in long vacation expedient 5034-5043 Rural economy: — ■'■'odel farm necessary for teaching - - - 5001 Professor of - - - 4981,4997-5000 Professorship not necessary - - 4994-4995 Teaching in Logic needed by Students of Natural Science .... 5022-5033 LEGGE, J., M.A. .... page 334 Bodleian, Chinese literature in Qtiestion 5139-5146 Chinese Chair ..... 5097 Native teacher to assist professor - - 5097-5106 Annual cost - - - - - 5133 In Paris ..... 5107-5112 Consular students ... 5097,5130-5138 Native teachers. Government to pay for - 5113,5130, 5132 Japanese, professor of, not required - - 5126-5129 Oriental institnte, proposed establishment of - - 5139 Oriental school, number of professors and teachers required for ... 5114-5125 University, mode of teaching Indian languages in 5112-51 13 Vernacular languages, way to teach - - - 5113 LIDDELL, Veky Reverend II. G., D.D. - Page 16 Classical archaeology: — Museum of - - - Qwestion 429, 431-433 Professor of .... 429-430 Reader of - - - - - - 429 College tutors : — Lectures of - - - - - 374-375 Relation of, to readers - - 364-367,383-386 Combined lecture system - - 372-373, 376-382 Natural science, teaching of, at colleges - 391-392 Professors : — 390, 406 407-421 429-430 395-397 390, 393-394-402-403, 407-417 398-401 402 404-405 360, 427-428 Additional in physics Boards of electors - Classical archaeology Emoluments of For life Indian history Philological Retirement of, &c. - Readers Research - - 1351-1352, 1376-1387, 1409-1410 Classical archmology - - 429 Scholarships, Modern History 1410-1411 Emoluments of - - 361-371 Taylor Institution . . . - 1359 Indian History - - 400 University: — Mode of election - - 372 Examinations - - 1344-1349, 1371-1372 Pensions - - 426 Examiners .... 1373-1375 Research - - 403 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — INDEX; 409 LIDDELL — cont. Unattached students, teaching of - - 387-389 University, special lectures - - 422-423 LIDDON, H. P., D.D. - - - - Page 290 Archseology - - - - Question 4537 (2) Canonries at Christ Church, proposed changes in - 4544 „ at Rochester - - ■ 4546-4548 Casuistry - - - - Combined lectures - - - Deontology - - - ■ Divinity school . . - Germany, theological studies in Hellenistic Greek, its importance „ „ archaeological side of the subject . . - Professorships : — Attendance at his own lectures Canon law, proposed ,, to be held by a layman Christian ethics, proposed - 4560-4563, 4567-4568 „ to be held by a clergyman - - 4563 Interpretation of Holy Scripture (Regius) to be created ... - 4537-4538 Endowment of - - - - 4538-4542 Ireland, of Exegesis, how to be dealt with - 4545-4552 Sj'riac and Rabbinical Hebrew, proposed - - 4572 Readerships : — Christian ethics, proposed - 4560-4563, 4567-4568 „ „ to be held by a clergyman - 4563 Liturgies, proposed ... 4569-457 1 Theology : — Lectures in - - - - 4544 (end), 4545 School of - - - - - 4537 (3) Study of, in Germany University : — Lecture rooms ... LTndergraduates, number of, attending his lectures . . - - - 4562 4574-4577 4564-4566 4573-4574 - 4537 4537 (2) 4537 (2) 4537 (end) 4553-4559 - 4558 4531 - 4573-4574 4537 Page 301 - 4597-4600 4651-4652 4632-4635 4658-4661, 4667-4672 - 4607-4609 MACAN, R. W., M.A. - Foreign Universities, experience at - Professors ; — Appointment of - - Question 4636-4637 „ should not be ma'de a political matter 4641-4642 Hebrew, additional professor necessary, without doctrinal tests, &c. - 4658, 4662-4667 Philosophy, professors of, should not be restricted to special functions Should be paid by fees ... Theology, additional professor necessary, without doctrinal tests, &c. University ; — Celibate restriction as to tutors Central and controlling authority necessary 4653-4658 College teaching should be restricted to passmen 4610, 4614, 4624 „ tutors ..... 4629 Discipline, instructional ... 4609-4028 ,, moral - - ■ - - 4601-4606 Examinations, degrees, &c. 4610-4613, 4625-4628 Higher teaching should be entirely under- taken by the - - 4609-4610, 4014-4624 Instructional discipline ... 4609-4028 Lecturers should be appointed by University only 4043-4649 „ should be paid by University only „ should be paid by fees Lectures voluntary . - . - Moral discipline .... Philosophy, teaching of - Teachers, mode of appointment Teaching (higher) should be entirely under- taken by the University - 4609-4610,4614-4624 Theology, teaching of Tutors, celibate restriction - „ college Voluntary lectures - Women students MAGR-ATH— co«<. Professoriate : — Conditions to be fulfilled by - - 2324-2368 Usefulness of - - - 2216, 2369-2374 Professors : — Advanced studies recognised by the University 2369-2374 Should not merely lecture ... 2375-2411 Scholarships or exhibitions for poor students 2452-2464 Teaching of passmen ... 2229, 2263-2269 University teachers .... 2275-2278 MAIN, R., M.A. ----- Page 310 Radclilfe Observatory : — Academical status of observer - Question 4683-4686 Alterations, structural, necessary for large circle 4674, 4677-4678 „ suspension of work during - 4676-4677 - 4673 4675 - 4676 - 4674 - 4673 - 4679-4680 Astronomical work Carrington transit circle, cost of Catalogue of stars - Circle, large transit, cost of „ „ desirable Library Officers should be independent of University - 4687 Suspension of work during alterations - 4670-4677 Transit circle, large, cost of - - - 4674 „ „ desirable - - - 4673 Union (proposed) with University Observatory 4681-4682,4687-4704 Work should not be of educational kind - 4694-4690 University Observatory ; — Astronomical work - - - - 4673 E.xtra staff necessary if union takes place - 4693, 4703 Union (proposed) with Radcliff'e Observatory 4681-4682, 4687-4704 ,, not desirable - - - - 4692 Working arrangement with Radcliff'e Observatory 4689-4691 MAINE, Sir H. J. S., M.A. Combined lecture system, teaching oflaw Indian institute Inns of Court, relation of, to the University Law : — English, lecturer in - - „ teaching of, by the University Examinations Lecturers - - - Roman, lecturer in - ,, teachins of 4022-4623 4632-4035 - 46.50 4001-4606 - 4041 4636-4037 Page 370 Questio7i 5620 - 5638-5641 - 5627-5631 - 5603-5609 - 5632-5633 5605-5606, 5610-5612 5603-5609, 5620-5624 - 5603 - 5634 School ----- 5601-5642 „ number of students - - - - 5619 „ separation of Modern History school from 5613-5618 Study, course of - - - - - 5625 Legal study in London ... 5627, 5642 Modern History School, separation of, from Law School 5613-5618 Professorships : — Law - - . - - 5635—56.36 Terminable - - - - - 5637 Readerships : — Law 5635 Terminable - - - - - 5637 University : — Appointment of law lecturers by the - 5620-5624 Relation of, to Inns of Court - - 5627-5631 Residence oflaw students - - - 5626-5627 Teaching of law by the ... 5632-56.33 MONRO, D. B., M.A. - Bodleian, collection of coins in Classical Archeology : — Museum of - Professor of - - Page 7 Question 210 220-226 203, 207-210 203, 207-213, 226-234 MAGRATH, J. R., M.A. - Attendance at lectures, compulsory College teaching : — Adequate for honour students In Natural Science should be prov Combined system - - - Deputy of tbe head of a college Examiners ; — Nomination of professors as Present system of - Natural Seience, teaching of - Poor Students, Halls for Q 6223. 4160, 4614, 4624 Teaching of, in Germany - 214-217 - 4638-4641 - 4607-4609 College system as compared with University sy^stem 177-185 - 4629 Combined lecture system - - 171-176, 297-31 1 - 4650 - 4629-4632 Philology, standard of attainment in Professors : — 190-199 Additional - - 169-171, 177, 266-271 Page 135 Celtic _ 238-241 Chinese _ 253 Question 2267-2274 Classical Archaeology - 203, 207-213, 226-234 English language - - 235-241 - 2219-2222 Functions of - 186-188, 248 ided - 2223-2225 German - - - 216-217 2226-2227. 2279-2295 Greek - l91 - ' 2465-2472 History of literature - 202 Latin - 190 - 2237-2241 Lectures of- - • - 180-185 - 2242-2253 Literature - - 202 - 2254-2262 Persian and Zend - - 2.52, 254-255 - 2412-2451 Philological * 203, 255-256 3 F 410 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — INDEX. 200 - 23S- 238- 257- 169, 249-250, 276- 280- 349- 241-247 MONRO — cont. Poetry - . - Romance languages Terminable Teutonic - - - Theory of education Readers - - _ Emoluments of - Research - - . Unattached students ; — Special class of - Teaching of . . . . University : — Arrangement of lectures . - - Boards of Studies . - - - College system compared with the - „ teaching should be superseded by the Compulsory attendance at lectures - 339- Examinations . - - - German - - - - 218-219, Lectures, arrangement of - „ compulsory attendance at 339-1 Natural Science should be subject of exa- mination for all degrees - - - Passmen, teaching of - - 320-329, Private tuition . - - . Teaching should su])ersede College teaching 344- 312- 201 241 233 -241 ■265 -296 ■290 ■350 ■348 ■319 177-1 351-352 251 185 172 343 330 275 352 343 340, 332- 272- 351- 340, 330- 337- 353- 331 342 359 172 MOORE, E., B.D. . . . . Page 41 Exhibitions for poor students - - Question 697-707 Halls ------ 681-696 Cost of education and living at St. Edmund Hall 690-692 Students, migration of - - - , 683-689 Unattached students - - - - 682-683 MULLER, F. Max., M.A. - - - Page 208 All Souls’ College - - - Questio?i 3486-3495 Bodleian, All Souls’ College should not be entirely absorbed by - - - - 3486 Classical Archaeology, Professorship of - - 3387 College Tutor.s, duties of, &c.- 3387-3390, 3448-3449, 3463-3466 Combined lecture system - - 3385-3386, 3424 Fellowships ------ 3387 Should be awarded for Modern Languages - - 3500 Haileybury ----- 3496, 3497 Indian Civil Service - - - - 3496-3499 Modern Languages, teaching of, at public schools 3501-3506 Professors : — - - - - - 3387 Additional undesirable - - - 3385-3387 Alone should teach - - 3387,3417-3419 Classical Archmology - - - - 3387 Examiners, professors should be - - 3436, 3465 German ----- 3475-3485 Lectures of ; — Attendance at - 3394-3397, 3420-3423, 3450-3462 Certificates of attendance at Persian Literature - - - Teaching of - - - Zoology - - - _ Research - - - - Taylor Institution - - - Examinations at - Teachers, salaries of - - Teaching at - - - University, age at which men come to the Authority to teaeh - Difference between German and English Examinations German - - - Students at - - Oxford, students at Course of instruction at - - 3398-3407 - 3387 - 3427-3429 - 3387 - 3467-3473 - 3504 3507-10 - 3514-3512 - 3516 - 3390-3393, 3486 - 3438-3447 - 3425 3390, 3430-3437, 3465 - 3388, 3425 - 3408-3412 - .3412-3416 - 3425-3426 Page 281 NEATE, C., M.A. Civil Law, teaching of, should be undertaken by Professors of Jurisprudence and Ancient History - - - _ Question 4426-4427 College tutors, relation of, to professors - 4438-4460 Should be assistants to professors - - - 4438 Modern Literature, study of, should be encouraged 4501- 4504 Philosophy, teaching of - - - 4498 Political Economy should not be a subject for examination in the schools - - - - 4435 Professorships : — Additional ----- 4423-4425 Additional Physical Science, not desirable 4499-4500 Civil Law, should be suppressed - - - 4426 Conditions of - - - - - 4486 Incorporation of - - - - 4475-4479 International Law, emoluments too large - 4428-4432 PoUtical Economy : — Attendance at lectures - - - 4436-4437 NEATE — cont. Should be connected with teaching of the History of the Cormnercial and Econo- mical Progress of Mankind - - 4433-4434 Relation of, to College tutorships - - 4438-4460 Readerships : — College tutors should not hold - - - 4485 Teaching of Civil Law might be assigned to a - 4427 Unattached Students : — Fellowships in connexion with, should be established - - _ . 44 qi_4474 Scholarships „ „ - 4496-4497 University : — Chancellor should have greater interest in management of - - - - 4465-4467 Fellowship in connexion with unattached students should be established - - 4461-4474 General Matriculation examination desirable 4455-4456 Higher education should be entirely under- taken by Professors - - - - 4438 Press - - - - - 4486-4495 Vice-Chancellor’s public reception rooms - - 4476 NETTLESHIP, Henry, M.A., - Bodleian, unpublished MSS. - Professors : — Conversion of Anglo-Saxon chair into Page 53 Question 854-856 842, 845-846, - 846-848, - 842, 845, 847, Teutonic chair English language - Music Romance languages Readers Research, philological Scholarships, Taylor - - - - Taylor Institution - - - - Unattached students - - - - Tutors for - - - - - University : — Modern philology should have a place in ex- aminations - - _ . Music, teaching of, &c. - - - Teutonic and Romance, teaching of 848, 852 851-852 858-860 848, 852, 851-852 853-857 - 842 - 842 833-841 828-832 842-844 858-865 849-850 NETTLESHIP, R. L., M.A. 3627, Classical archaeology - College tutors Relation of, to professors Combined lecture system Law School - - - Modern History School Modern Literature, School of Professors : — Of English literature Relation of, to College tutors Readers - - - Appointment of - Lectures - - - Should not be college tutors Teutonic, Romance, and Celtic Scholarships : — Craven and Ireland Should only be for poor students Taylor Institution University ; — ■ Examinations Final Classical School Modern languages should be a subject for examination - . _ - Page 224 - Question 3627-3636 - 3627 - 3627 - 3627 - 3632-3635 3632-3635, 3638-3643 - 3671-3677 3667-3670 - 3627 3650-3652 3644-3645 - .3647 3646, 3649 - 3670 3653-3658 3653-3666 3671 3627-3629, 3639-3643 - 3627-3643 3675-3677 Page 171 ODLING, W., M.A. Chemistry : — Analytical - - - Question 2918-2919 Applied - ----- 2932 Christ Church laboratory - . - 2979-2983 College laboratories - - - 2991-2992 „ teaching - - - - 2958-2960 Lectures - - - - - - 2932 New laboratories - - - - - 2917 Number of students of - - - - 2916 Research . - _ - - - 2919 Teaching of, in Germany - - - 2938-2951 Theoretical- - - - - - 2932 Demonstrators — Aldrichian - - 2918-2919, 2932-2935, 2966 Chemistry ----- 2918-2919 Fellowships, temporary, for chemical research desirable Professors : — Additional, of ehemistry - 2919-2931 Fees - - - German, of chemistry WaynAete - - - Reader in chemistry, Lee’s Scholarships, number of, for natural science - Schools which send up youths prepared in natural science - - - . 2932, 2938, 2952-2957, 2965-2978 - 2932-2935 - 2938-2951 - 2932-2937 2957-2967, 2979-2983 2984-2990 3004-3006 UNIVKRSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : INDEX, 411 O DLING— con<. University: — Natural science should be a subject in all examinations . - . . 2993-3003 New chemical laboratories - - - - 2917 Scholarships in natural science desirable - 2985-2989 I’ALMER, E., M.A. . - - . Page 97 Classical archaeology: — Museum of - - - - Question 1575 Professor of - 1573, 1575-1582,1584-1586 Reader ----- 1577-1585 College teaching, relation of to university teaching - - 1587-1592, 1596-1599, 1613-1616 College tutors - - - - 1601-1607 Relation of, to professors - - - 1640-1648 Combined lecture system 1593-1595, 1632-1638, 1641-1642, 1649-1652 Law, teaching of - - . - 1596-1599 Lectures, compulsory attendance at - - 1628-1631 Modern history, teaching of - - - 1596-1599 Professors: — Additional - - - - - - 1573 Classical archaeology 1573, 1575-1582, 1584-1586 - 1573-1574 - 1580-1582 - 1640-1648 - 1583-1585 - 1582-1583 1600-1603, 1609-1612 - 1577-1585 - 1608 - 1616-1618 Classical languages - For life - - - Relation of, to college tutors Residence of - - Salaries - - - Readers - . - Classical archaeologj- - - - Classics - - - - - Unattached students, teaching of - University: — Passmen, teaching of - - - Private tuition - - - - Teaching should not supersede college teaching - - - - - 1619-1631 - 1639 1588-1593 PAPILLON, T. L., M.A.- Combiued lecture system - Question Professors’ lectures - - . Readers . - . . University, proposed transfer of teachin the colleges to the - - - - Page 233 3793-3808, 3812 ' 3813-3825 - 3806-3811 from PHELPS, L. R.,B. A. - Professors in Germany: — Appointment of Lectures of Number of Philosophy 4594 Page 57 932-934 928-931, 945 - 965 996-969, 976-979 PHELPS— con/. Universities in Germany Education given at Examinations Lectures Students at 919-924 984-986 935-948 970-975 925-927, 949-964, 980-983 POTTINGER, II. A., M.A. All Souls’ College, Fellowships, Library, &c. Page 264 3804-5 Page 255 Question 4115, 4134-4137, 4158 PATTISON, M., B.D. - College tutors - Combined lecture system _ _ . 4139-4141 Fellowships - - 4115-4117, 4122-4125,4153-4155 Prize - - - 4126-4133, 4158-4163 Functions, three discharged by the colleges - - 4115 Scholarships - - - - 4115,4158-4163 Fixed maximum age - - - - 4118 Uniform value - - . . 4118-4121 University: - - Boards of electors ----- 4117 Private tuition - . . 4138-4143,4146 System of education, &c. at the 4115, 4131-4133, 4142- 4152, 4156-4157, 4164 PAYNE, J. F., B.A., B.M. - - - Page 346 Medicine : Endowments for study of, at Oxford Question 5329-5332 School of, at Oxford - - 5289-5293, 5307-5328, 5340-5348, 5368-5371, 5379-5380 School of, in London - - - 5333-5339 Professors : — Anatomy and Physiology - - - 5302-5303 Forensic medicine - - - - 5352-5358 Functions of Regius Professor of Medicine- - 5378 Human anatomy - - - . 5304-5306 Materia medica ----- 5351 Obstetric medicine - - - . 5352 Ophthalmology - - - - 5365-5366 Pathology - - - 5352, 5359-5364 Physiology and Anatomy- - . 5302-5303 Salaries of - - - - 5372-5378 Surgery ----- 5349-5350 Psychiatry -----. 5354 Radclilfe Infirmary - - - - 5341-5347 University: — Age at which M.B. degree can be obtained 5294-5301 Medical board of studies - - - - 5367 Relation of the, to medical profession - 5255-5289 PELHAM, H. F., M.A. - written statement - Page 302 Central Board in eaeh department needed to systematise the teaching - - Question Question 4244 Bodleian : — Books - - . - 4242-4244 College teaching 4244-4253, 4268-4283 College tutors should not be examiners - 4283-4287 Combined lecture system 4241, 4254, 4266-4268 Fellowships : — All Souls’ - - - - 4244 Research in connexion with - 4292, 4294 Law School - - - - 4241, 4268 Medical School - 4268 Professors : — Additional, inexpedient - 4244,4268-4271 Appointment of - - 4244-4253 Attendance at lectures of - 4265 Law, endowment of - 4255 Lectures - - . 4253-4259, 4264-4263 Readers : — Additional, inexpedient - 4244 Should be connected with colleges onh- - 4271-4278 Research . - - - 4242, 4292-4296 Taylor Institution - - 4244 University : — Classics should not be only subject taught by colleges 4271-4276 College teaching 4244-4253, 4268-4283 Examination fund 4279-4285 Examinations 4242, 4279, 4287-4291 Examiners, tutors should not be 4283-4287 Informal instruction 4258-4263 Institutions - 4242 Lecture rooms - - 4244 Museum - - - 4242, 4244 New schools - 4244 Subjects of examinations 4287-4291 Teaching should not be undertaken by the 4242, 4279 ESTWICH, J., M.A. Page 313 Museum (Geological Department) : — Accommodation Question 4705- -4709, 4713, 4716-4717, 4730-4733 Demonstrator required - 4714-4722 Lecture room - 4710 Suj)erior workmen required 4734-4736 Professorships : — Assistant Professor of Petrology 4716, 4723-4729 „ „ of Palaeontology - 4716, 4723 University, Geology should occupy a more definite position in examinations - 4711-4712 PRICE, Bartholomew, M.A. - Page 3 Bodleian - - - - - Question 37 Botanic Garden - - - - 37, 49-57 Chancellor, to be more of a living power - 148 City of Oxford Prisons Bill - 37 Combined college lectures - - 139-144 Mathematics : — Applied, professorship of - 136-138 Attendance at his own lectures on - 102-105 College, teaching of - - 92-97, 167 Combined lectures on - 98-101 Development of - - 146-147 Increase in number of professors - 75- -80, 106-123 Increase in number of students - - 124 Public lectures on - - - - 85-91 Relation of to Physical Science - - 125-135 Research . . _ - - 81-84 Unattached students readiuK - - 168 New schools : — Expense of - - - - - 31-36 Accommodation in - - - - 59-65 Private tuition _ . . - 160-162 Professors : Applied mathematics - 136-138 Appointment of - - 148 Colleges to pay - - . - - 66-67 Compelled to take fees - - 152 Heads of their departments - 153 Increase in number of - 75- ■80, 106-123 Readers - - . _ - 79, 80, 145 Not to be in competition with professors - 153-159 To be paid by fees - 163-166 Unattached students reading mathematics - 168 University : — Annual estimated charge upon - 43 Changes recommended can only be gradual 149-151 Chemical laboratories - 37 Deficiency to meet liabilities - - 40-42 .‘5 F 2 412 UNIVERSITY OP OXFORD COMMISSION : — INDEX, PRICE — emit. Dues fund Fees not to be increased - Liabilities, besides new schools Observatory Press balances Resources Surplus annual income of 58 - 68-74 - 37-38 37 - 45-48 39 - 44, 58 PRICE, Bonamy, M.A. Page 121 College tutors : — Have no career - - - - Questimi 2016 Prospect of advancement, &c. - - 2014-2050, 2056-2074 Combined lecture system - - - 2046-2050 Professors, relation of, to College tutors, &c., &c. 2014-2050, 2056-2074 Readers ------ 2023 Teaching, all should be done by the university, not by the colleges - - - 2018-2021 University : — Examinations, importance of viva voce - 2050-2055 Fees for tuition should all be paid to the 2018-2022, 2032-2034 Teaching staff - - - 2014-2050, 2056-2074 PRITCHARD, C., M.A. - - - Page 197 Astronomj', number of students of Question 3304-3305 Professors', additional, of Astronomy - - 3303 Radcliffe Observatory - - - 3266-3267 Library ----- 3288-3290 Meridian circle - - 3270-3275, 3277-3279 Should be under control of the university 3268-3269, 3276 Work at ----- 3269-3271 Scholarships in Astronomy desirable - 3291-3303 P’niversity Observatory : — Library ----- 3286-3287 Meridian circle - - 3259-3266, 3273, 3281 Staff ----- 3282-3285 Work at ----- 3269,3280 PUSEY, E. B., D.D. - - - - Page 295 Age at which youths come to Oxford - Question 4585 Apologetics - - - - 4578, 4584 Divinity : — Regius Professor of, might choose his subject - 4578 „ ,, should lecture in Apologetics - 4578 Exegesis ; — Dean Ireland's Professor of, insufficiently endowed 4578 „ „ to be hereafter a reader 4579 New chair of - - - - 4578 Fellowships : — Mostly awarded for Liter® Humaniores - - 4585 Terminable, of great value - - - 4592 Hebrew : — P'ew students of, in Oxford - - . 4580 Must be lectured upon both philologically and theologically ----- 4580 Not really encouraged in Theological School - 4580 Words compared with cognate dialects - - 4580 Philology, comparative, of Semitic languages - 4580 Professors : — of Arabic, Mr. Chenery’s letter about - - 4.591 of Divinity, in Germany numerous, students few - 4578 of Eastern languages in German^' - - 4591 Subjects should be assigned to e.ach chair 4583-4584 Readers in Apologetics, Ecclesiastical History Dogmatics, Hebrew - - - - 4578 Residence, short time of, in the year - - 4586 Semitic languages ----- 4.580 Studentships, clerical - - - 4588,4591 Teachers may now be of any or no religion 4589, 4590 Theological School - - - - 4578 Unattached students - - - . 4587 Universities : — German, have many professors, few students of Divinity - - - - -4578 Two or three German have lecturer in Talmudic - 4581 In 12 German, number of professors, teachers, courses of lectures in Divinity - . - 4578 RAWLINSON, G., M.A. Page 250 Assyriology, professorship of - (Question 4081 Classical archmology : — Museum of - - - - 4083-4084 Professorship of - - - - 4082 College tutors, relation of, to professoriate 4087-4090, 4094-4098, 4103, 4106, 4108-4114 Combined lecture system 4089-4090, 4094-4095, 4106-41 1 1 Egyptology, professorship of - - - 4081 Professors : — Additional Assyriology Classical archeology College tutors, relation of, to 4080-4082 - 4081 - 4082 4087-4090, 4094-4098 4103, 4106, 4108-41 14 RAWLINSON— cont. Egyptology - - . . . 408 I Lectures of, certificates of attendance at 4091-4094, 4098-4102, 4109, 4112-4114 Should be e.xamincrs - - 4103-4105,4110 Readers : — Additional ----- 4080-4081 Should not be college tutors - - - 4106 Temporary ----- 4106-^107 Universit}': — Certificates of attendance at professors’ lectures - 4091-4094,4098-4102,4109,4112-4114 Examiners, professors should be - 4103-4105,4110 Lecture rooms - - . . 4084-4086 Should give protection to the professors - - 4087 RICHARDS, II. P., M.A. - - - Page 330 College tutors: — Emoluments should increase - Question 5080 Prospects of advancement - - - 5078-5079 Should not be supplanted by professors 5052-5056 5092-5096 Combined lectures - - 5054, 5056, 5064-5077 Attendance of outsiders - - . 5072-5075 Fellowships, prize, should be retained- - 5085-5088 Passmen, not to be taught in large classes 5056, 5090-5092 Professors ; — Additional, inexpedient - . .. 5050-5052 Appointment of additional • - - 5057-5062 Changes in chairs of certain subjects desirable - 5050 College tutors not to be supplanted by - 5052-5056, 5092-5096 Readers, appointment of additional, inexpedient - 5063 Scholarships : — Fixed maximum age - - - - 5089 Should only be held by men in need of assistance - . - - 5082, 5084 Uniform value - - - . 5082-5083 Unattached students, number will increase if professors supplant college tutors - 5056 University: — Passmen not to be taught in large classes 5056, 5090- 5092 Public lectures . - - . 5090-5096 ROBARTS, C. II., M.A. - All Souls’ College Library - - - „ Union with Bodleian Bodleian . - - Letter to curators - Management of - Requirements of - Union of All Souls’ library with College system Fellowships: — All Souls’ College - Prize - - - Page 356 Question 5518-5530 5483-5487, 5513 5488, 5530-5545 5468-5481,5511-5512 Page 365 - - 5503-5510 - 5487-5488 - 5488, 5530-5545 - 5488 - 5488 - 5513-5518 - 5488 Law: — Faculty of - - - - - 5488-5501 Contribution from All Souls’ College towards establishment of .school - - - 5496-5501 Library Professorships : — Appointments to Emoluments Occasional - Payment by fees Pensions Should be terminable Radcliffe library Research, endowment of 5502-5503,5513 - 5442 - 5447-5468 - 5446 - 5447 - 5444-5446, 5459 - 5442-5445 - 5544 - 546.8 University: — Libraries and institutions should be under one management - - - - Relation of the, to the nation Residence during long vacation 5481-5483 - 5442 5447-5457 ROBINSON, A., M.A. - - - - Page 147 College : — Teaching - - - - Question 2558-2559 Tutors . - - . . 2559-2563 „ relation of to University teachers - 2564 Colleges, surplus income of - - - 2533-2542 Combined lecture sj'stem - . . 2560-2562 Professors : — Additional - - - - Fees . . - - Lectures - - - - Unattached students, teaching of, &c. University: — Commission of 1871, report of, &c. Examiners, appointment of Examination of schools, delegacy for the Examinations, subjects of - Extension of teaching stafiF - Finance - - - - 2550-2558 - 2570 2564-2567 2571-2579 2527-254.' - 2568 2580-2588 2568-2570 2544-2559 2526-2559 UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : INDEX, 413 2564 - 2580-2588 2580 2526, 2543-2559 - 2544-2559 2873- 2894 2901 2910 ■2879 2900 2910 2912 2913 2914-2915 ■2882 •2910 KOBINSON— Lecture rooms Local examinations, delegacy of - Offices . - - - Requirements, funds for - Teaching staff', extension of ROGERS, J. E. T., M. A. - - - Page 167 College teaching in relation to University teaching - - - - Question 2867-2872 Delegacies - - - - - 2913 Examiners, mode of appointing - - 2884-2893 Professors : — Under no control from public opinion Residence of - - - - Should be more under control of University Scholarships and exhibitions too high in amount for unnattached students undesirable Undergraduates, expenditure of - University: — Should have no members in Parliament - 2880- Should have more control over Professors 2901- ROLLESTON, G., D.M. - - - Page 269 Biological Department: — Additional accomodation required Question 4298- 4307, 4312-4322, 4342-4343 ,, ,, cost of - 4303-4306 Anatomy ----- 4308-4319 „ and Physiology too much for one man to deal with - - 4318-4319 Animal Chemistry - - - 4312 Anthropology - - - - 4298 Aquaria ----- 4298-9 Demonstrator’s emoluments should be in- creased ----- 4344 Ethnology - - - - 4298 Experiments on living animal; Financial position - - - Histology - - - - - Microscopy - - - . Objects aimed at in working of depai'tment Physiology - _ . - „ accommodation for teaching Bodleian - - - - - Anecdota, printing of - Numismatics - - - . Should have been removed to parks Chemistry, department of, accommodation, &c. 4304-4307 Classical Archaeology and Art, Museum desi- rable - - - - - - 4422 Demonstrators : — Increase in number desirable - - - 4308 Stipends should be increased - - - 4344 Fellowships :— Radcliffe travelling - _ . 4375-4382 Should all be made terminable, &c. - 4383-4398 Natural science, teaching in colleges, &c. - 43^0-4374 Physics, department of, accommodation, &c. - 4304-4307 Professorships : — Additional - - 4319-4324,4338-4343,4422 Anatomy (Invertebrate) - - - 4338-4343 Archaeology (classical) - - - - 4422 Dravidian languages - - - - 4422 Physiology - - - - 4319-4324 Professors should not be examiners - 4354-4355 Radcliffe Library - - - . - 4419 Research - - - - - - 4360 University : — College headships, university should have a voice in elections to - - - 4348-4349 Condition of electoral boards - - 4345-4359 Discipline, moral - - . - - 440 1 Electoral boards, constitution of - - 4345-4359 Examiners, appointment of, &c. - - 4350-4359 1/aboratories, length of time during which open 4420-4421 Long vacation of at least three months Museum ----- Offices of a creditable kind should be built - Poor students, eleemosynary assistance to - Relation of Colleges to the - - - Terms ----- Vacations ----- Value of mere presence of illustrious men in 4312-4313, 4330-4336 4344 4312-4323 4301-4302 - 4297 4309-4337 4326-4328 4419, 4422 - 4399 - 4399 - 4229 4402-4405 - 4422 - 4422 - 4400 4370-4374 4406-4421 4402-4421 4360-4369 SALWEY, II., M.A. - - - . Page 205 College tutors - - 3355-3356 Should not be superseded by readers - - 3381 Combined lecture system - 3355-3356, 3376-3380 I^e’s readers - - ’ - - - 3359-3368 Mode of appointment - - - 3369-3370 Natural Science-: — Students of, at Christ Church - - 3371-3375 Teachers of, at Christ Church - - - - 3359 Professorships - - - - 3382-3384 SAL’WEY— cont. Readers - - - Research - - - Scholarships, fixed maximum age SAYCE, A. II., M.A. 3356, 3381-3381 - 33)9 - 3356-3359 Page 106 Bodleian, Oriental MSS. - - Question 1824 Colleges, relation of, to the university 1751, 1755-1757 Fellows: — Professors should be Oriental - - - Hebrew - - - India Civil Service Students - Modern languages Oriental Institute ( Iriental studies In Germany Students, number of, &c. - Professors : — ' Anglo-Saxon - - - Appointment of - Arabic and Syriac - - - Celtic - - - - Chinese - - - 1765- Comparative Philology Comparative Semitic Philology Dravidian languages Greek - - - Hebrew - - . - Japanese - - - - Latin - - - - Modern Romance languages Oriental - . - . Persian and Zend - - - Sanskrit - - - . _ Should have voice in government of colleges 1751-4, 1840 (end) Slavonic ----- Readers : — Talmudic - - - . - Telugu and Hindustani Research - - - . . Talmudic Hebrew - . - - Taylor Institution - - - . Relation of, to proposed new professorships Teaching of Slavonic in - Theological School - - - - Universities, German - - - - - 1751-1754 - 1769-1771 758, 1831-1837 - 1758-1761 - 1800-1816 - 1825-1827 1758-1761, 1823 - 1791-1792 - 1785-1793 - 1796 - 1828-1830 1777-17S0 - 1796 1766, 1798, 1819 - 1794 1776 - 1822 1796, 1817-1818 - 1772 - 1820-1821 1796, 1817-1818 1799, 1810-1813 - 1762-1769 1767-1769, 1795 1795 1795 1772—1775 - 1765 1783-1784 - 1772 1800-1816 - 1800 - 1796 1831-1840 1791-1792 SEWELL, Rev. Dr., Vice-Chancellor Bodleian ----- New schools, plan of, and rooms in Report of council, reasons for Students in halls - - - . Unattached students - - - . Increase in number - . - . Poor - - - - - Religious question - - - . Tutors of - - , - University buildings - - - . Funds - - - _ - Income may be improved («) by raising the fees (5) by colleges paying the professors Press - SMITH, Goldwix, M-1.. - - - - Bodleian library - - - Question V College teaching, as compared with Universitj- teaching - - - - 1724-1 Combined lecture .system - - - ] Fellowships - - - - - j Professors : — Additional - - - Anglo-Saxon English History English literature -' Functions of - - Reorganisation of system - Research - - - University : — American - - - 1709-1723, r - 1 ' - 1: 1728-1729, U 1728, U Page 1 stion 22 23-27 I 16 5-16 5, G 7 8, 9 10-15 17-19 2, 3, 20 21 Page 104 7 44—1 7 4l> 725, 1729 726-1727 M8-175D '41-1 74.3 - I7IS '21-1722 13-1720 39-1740 - 1747 3.3-1739 - - - - 1730-1732 Teaching as compared with college teaching 1724-1725, 1729 STRACHAN-DAVIDSON, j. L., M.A. - College tutors - - - - Relation of, to professors Fellowships : — Prize - - . - ,, emoluments of - - Professors : — Appointment of - " - Relation of, to college tutors Should be members of governing body of their own colleges - - 3828,3840-3842 a r 3 Page 234 Question 3865 - 3826-3828 3861, 3865-3879 - 3861-3864 - 3828-3829 - 3826-3828 4U UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — INDEX. STRACHAN-DAVIDSON— coHC Readers - - 3828 Appointment of - - 3828-3829 Emoluments - - 3828 Length of tenure of office - - 3839 Should be college tutors - 3828, 3830-3836 Should be promoted to professorships - 3837-3338 Research - 3842, 3843, 3861, 3865 Scholarships - - 3845, 3855-3859 Fixed maximum age - - 3852-3854 Uniform value of - - - 3846-3851 STUBBS, W., M.A. - Page 74 Combined lecture system i Question 1228-1230, 1241-1250 Modern History : — Attendance at lectures of Regius Professor of - 1231 Number of students - - 1224 School , - 1218-1221 Teaching of - 1220-1221, 1228 Professors : — Additional - - 1223-1227, 1232-1233 Anglo-Saxon _ - 1223 English history - - 1223 „ literature - - 1223, 1234, 1250 (end) Foreign history - - 1223 Indian history - 1223, 1234-1240 Modern church history - - 1223 Readers : — Additional - - - 1222-1223 Modern history - - 1222 Northern antiquities - - 1222 Political economy - - - 1222 Research - - 1233 University, recognition of combined lecture system - 1228, 1242-1245 STUBBS. W.. M. A., Curator of Bodleian - - Page 248 Ashmolean Bodleian Alterations proposed Assistant librarians - Archaiological museum Books Foreign literature - Income of - Manuscripts Reading rooms Reserved books Staff „ salaries of Convocation House - Divinity School Radcliffe Library Question 4067-4071 - 4041-4042 - 4063-4074 4051, 4054-4056 - 4052-4054 - 4043-4050 - 4046-4047 - 4048-4049 - 4072-4074 - 4067-4072 - 4072 4051,4057,4063 - 4057-4062 - 4071-4072 - 4067-4071 4054, 4070, 4073 TALBOT, E. S., M.A. Page 259 College tutors should have main charge of teaching Questioji 4165-4170 Exhibitions, Grocers Company’s Ordination Candidates’ Fund - Professors, relation of, to College tutor: Readers, additional desirable - Scholarships ; — - 4206 - 4197-4199 - 4165-4170 io7-4169-4170 Examinations - - - 4178-4186 Fixed maximum age - - 4171-4177 Keble College - - - 4201-4202 Tenable only' by men in need of as.istance - 4200-4210 Unattached students - 4194-4196, 4205, 4210 Uniform value - - - - 4187-4193 University ----- 4207-4210 University : — College tutors should have main charge of teaching ----- 416.5-4170 Poor scholars Scholarships - 4194-4210 - 4207-4210 THORLEY, G. E., M.A. - Page 101 Bodleian . - - - Question 2172 Classical Archaeology : — Museum of- - - - - - 2172 Professor of . - - . _ 2172 College teaching not to be superseded by- university teaching - - - - 2173 College tutors, position of, &c. 2173-2174, 2214-2215 Combined lecture system - - - 2179-2194 Examiners, stipends should be increased - - 2172 Exhibitions : — For students in need of assistance, &c. - 2203-2207 For unattached students - - - 2209-2213 Professors : — Additional - Archaiology Duties of - English literature - Lecture rooms Mode of appointment Modern literature - Stipends 2172-2173 - 2172 2172-2173 - 2172 - 2172 - 2173 - 2172 - 2172 THORLEY— coat. Readers : — Additional - . - . Mode of appointment - - - Should not be College tutors Scholarships : — Fixed maximum age - - . Number of - - - - Prize - - - - . Uniform value - - - - Unattached students - - - University - - _ . Unattached students: — Exhibitions - - _ - Scholarships - . - . University : — Expenses of undergraduates Funds, small colleges can hardly contribute Grants to aid special branches of study - Museum - - - - . Requirements . - . 2173 2173 2214-2215 2201-2202 2197-2198 2196 2198 2208 2195 2209-2213 2208 2199-2200 to 2176-2178 2172 2172 2169-2172 THURSFIELD, J. R., M.A. - - .. Page Hi Bodleian - - . . Questio?i 1846 Classical archajology: — Museum of - - _ - 2013 Professor of - - - - 1861 College tutors - - . 1893-1899, 1912 Combined lecture system 1867-1877, 1882-1894, 1930-1932 Lectures - - - - - 1988-2004 Literae humaniores, reconunendation of board of studies - - . Natural science, teaching of Professors ; — 2005-2013 1913-1920 Additional Ancient history- Appointment of Classical archaeology German - Greek Latin I.ecture rooms for Residence of Readers : — 1860-1861, 1900-1906 1861 1979-1984, 2013 1861 - 1906-1911 1861, 1901-1902 1861 - 1854-1858 1985-1897 Additional - - - - Ancient history - - - Appointment of - Intercollegiate lecturers should replace Philology - - - - Philosophy - - - - Scholarships - - - - Fixed maximum age Uniform value - - . Unattached students, scholarships for University : — Boards of studies, functions of, &c. - Honour students, teaching of Lecture rooms - - _ Lectures, arrangement of, &c. Museum - . - _ Offices for delegacies Requirements . . - - 1861,1901 - 1861 1979-1984,2013 - 1862-1877 - 1861 • 1861 - 1948-1961 - 1971-1978 - 1962-1970 - 1948-1958 - 1921-1928 - 1878-1881 - 1854-1858 - 1928-1947 - 1859 - 1846-1854 - 1841-1846 University Chest Curators Page 249 University, revenue and expenditure accounts, contained in the report of the Duke of Cleve- land’s Commission - - - Question 4075-4079 WESTWOOD, J. ()., M.A. - - ■ Page 195 Ashmolean Museum - - Question. 3205, 3251-3258 Bodleian 3242 Hope Collection of Portraits'should not he removed to - - - 3249-3250 Classical Archaeology, Museum of - - 3252-3254 Professors : — Anatomy, Human and Comparative Verte- brate ----- 3222-3224 Lectures, attendance at his - - . 3233 Residence, duration of - - - 3217-3218 Zoology and Invertebrate Anatomy - - 3224 Radcliffe Library, Hope Collection of Por- traits ----- 3241-3250 Readers : — Natural Theology - Vertebrate Zoology Scholarships for Zoology Taylor Building University Museum Zoology, Hope Collection - 3234-3240 - 3206-3231 - 3232 - 3245 - 3205 3205, 3209-3215, 3228 WILLIAMS, MONIER, M.A. •• - - Page 176 Bodleian, Oriental manuscripts Question 3036,3072 Classical Archa;ology, Museum of • - - 3073 Fellowships, for Oriental studies -< - - 3030 Indian Institute - 3036-3037, 3055, 3061-3079,3101 Oriental languages; — UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD COMMISSION : — INDEX. ilo WILLIAMS — coni. Arabic - - - - Bengali . . . - Hindi - - - - Increase of teaching staff - Kanarese - - . - Persian . . - . Recognition of, by the University - Sanskrit - - - - Students of . , - „ native - - - Teaching of, on the Continent Telugu and Tamil - , - Tibetan - . - - Professors: — Arabic and Aramaic „ Laudian - - - „ Lord Almoner’s Assyrian - - - - Biblical Hebrew - - - Dravidian - - - Egyptian - - - Iranian ... North Turaniac Oriental languages, stipends of Pali and Prakrit Philology Sanskrit - - - Talmudic ... Readers : — Indian history and geography Indian law and political economy Research ... Scholarships, Oriental languages University : — Candidates for Indian Civil Service - 3053-3054 Encouragement to Oriental students at Cambridge 3018-3019 Indian (native) students at Oxford - 3036-3052 Japanese » » . - - 3046 Oriental studies should be formally recog- nised by the . - . . 3007, 3018 WILSON, JOHN CHARLES, B.C.L. - - Page 69 Colleges, teaching of law at - - - 1169-1173 Combined lecture system . - . 1171-1193 Fellowships, law . - - 1183-1184,1188 Law: — Academical prizes . - - - Distribution of subjects for teaching purposes Examinations - - 1144-1146, Lectures - - 1155-1168, 1172-1182, Occasional lectures * - Objects in teaching . . _ Office occupied by himself - - 3007-3008 - 3096 - 3097 - 3020-3023 - 3083 3089-3094, 3097 - 3007,3018 - 3007-3018 - 3024-3029 - 3036-3052 - 3030-3033 3020 3080-3087 - 3034-3036 - 3021 - 3021 - 3021 3021,3026-3027 - 3021 3020, 3026-3027, 3098 3021-3022, 3026-3027 - 3020 3020-3021,3028,3098 - 3099-3101 3020, 3088-3097 - 3020 - 3021 - 3022 - 3022 - 3023-3029 3030, 3050, 3056-3060 Students Tutors Professors : — Additional - English law International law Jurisprudence Oriental law Residence of Roman law 1186-1188 1152-1156 1157-1159 1191-1192 - 1191 - 1139 - 1135-1138 1140-1144, 1147-1151 - 1185 - 1163,1191 - 1176, 1191 - 1191,1199 - 1191 - 1191 - 1207-1216 WILSON — cont. ^ Readers - . . . . 1193-1193 English law - - - - - 1199 International law - - - - -1199 Jurisprudence - - - - - 1199 Oriental law - - . . 119], H99 Roman law - - - - - 1 1 99 Stipends of- - . . . 1200-1206 Vineriau law - . . . - 1177 Research ----- 1211-1213 Scholarships, law - - . . 1188-1190 University, relation of, to Inns of Court - - 1217 WILSON, J. Cook, M.A. _ . . page 55 Combined lecture system - - Question 866 Philosophy, teaching of, in Germany - 893-895, 913 Professors: — Duties of, in Germany - . - . 909 Lectures of, in Germany - - 883, 912, 915 Number of, in Germany - - - _ 879 Research in Germany - - 909, 914-918 University of Gottingen: — Arrangement of lectures at - - 866-868 Course, length of - - - - 879-882 Examinations at - - 884-904 Number of students at - - - 869 Teachers at - - - - 870-878 System of teaching in Germany as compared with that at Oxford _ 905-908 Vacations in Germany - - 910-911 WORDSWORTH, J., M.A. - - Page 315 Bodleian ... _ 4755, 4766 Grinfield lectureship - - - 4740-4748 „ should be combined with readership in connexion with professorship of exegesis 4741, 4747-4748 Professorships : — Divinity, Regius Professor of - - 4758-4765 Exegesis, to be placed on level with other chairs - - - - - 4737-4740 Margaret professor - - 4758-4765 Readerships, two should be established in con- nexion with professorship of exegesis 4737, , 4746 — 1747 University: — Archseological museum - - - 4767 Craven scholarships - - - 4768 Divinity School - - 4749-4757 Epigraphy, teaching of - - 4766-4767 Hulmeian exhibitions - - - 4768 Pateography, teaching of - - - 47 66—4767 YULE, C. J. F., M.A. - - Page 223 Museum, teaching of Physiology at the - 3615-362] Physical Science: — College laboratories - - - 3615 Experiments on living animals - 3609, 3622-3626 Laboratory at Magdalen College - - 3615-3621 Physiology - - 3607-3621 „ teaching of, at museum - - 3615-3621 Students at Magdalen - - 3610-3614 Work done at Magdalen in Michaelmas Term 1877 - - - 3613 Research - - - - - - 3622 ■ - vjtA ■»..,. 1*1, V ,: i I. •V i» iU- j . L O X D O N ; rrinttfl by Gko;:ci; E. Evui; and Wir.u.m SPOTflswoODi:, i’riuters to the (Queen’s most Excellent Majesty. For Her M;'jesty’s Stationery Office. 4 " P4RT II. CERTAIN CIRCULARS ADDRESSED BY THE COMMISSIONERS TO THE UNIVERSITY ANI) THE COLLEGES, TOGETHER WITH THE ANSWERS, OR A DIGEST THEREOE. I Q 6623. A 1 CONTENTS. Circular Nos. 4 and 7. Page As to corrections needed in the Report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Coramissiori concerning the Income and Expenditure of the University ‘ and the Colleges - - 3 Return Chest from the Curators of the University 3 Return from University College - - - 12 Baliiol College - - IG )) Merton College - - 24 Exeter College - - 28 Oriel College - - 32 Queen’s College - - 37 New College - - 41 5? Lincoln College - 44 3 > All Souls’ College - - - 46 33 Magdalen College - - - 50 53 Brasenose College - - - 55 33 Corpus Christi College - - 57 33 Christ Church - - 61 33 Trinity College - - G6 33 St. John’s College - - - 68 33 Jesus College - - 71 53 Wad ham College - - 73 33 Pembroke College - - - 77 33 Worcester College - - - 82 5) St. Mary Hall - - 84 33 New Inn Hall - - 85 33 St. Alban Hall - - 86 33 St. Edmund Hall - - - 87 Circular No. 8. As to the number, value, tenure, &c., ships in the several Colleges - of Fellow’ 87 Statement I. as to Number and Value - 88 33 11. as to Tenure - - 89 Circular No. 9. As to Officers in each College and their Stipends 91 Answer from University College - - 91 33 Baliiol College - - 92 33 Merton College - - 92 33 Exeter College - - 93 33 Oriel College - - 93 33 Queen’s College - - - 94 33 New College - - 95 33 Lincoln College - •• - 95 33 All Souls’ College - - - 96 33 Magdalen College - - - 96 33 Brasenose College - - 97 33 Corpus Christi College - - 98 33 Christ Church - - 98 33 Trinity College - - 99 Q 6223. Answer from St. John’s College Page - 99 33 Jesus College - - 100 33 Wadham College - - - 100 33 Pembroke College - - 101 33 Worcester College - - 102 Circular No 10. As to Clerical Headships ; Clerical Fellowships, Prize Fellowships, other Fellowships ; Value and Tenure of Scholarships ; Teaching of Natural Science in each College - - 102 Answer from, Anson, Sir W. R., Bart. - - 129 Asquith, LI. H. - - - 169 Baker, G. E. - . - 130 Baliiol College, Master and Fellows of - - 103 „ Five Fellows of - - - 169 Bradley, A. C. - - - 169 Bradley, Rev. G. G. - - - 140 Brasenose College - - 108 Brodrick, Hon. G. C. - - - 164 Browne, Rev. C. H. - 138 Burrows, Professor . - 133 Butcher, S. H. - - - 134 Butler, Rev. A. G. - - Ill Chamberlain, Rev. T. - . - 112 Chase, Rev. D. P. - - 113 Corpus Christi College - - - 109 Divinity, Regius Professor of - - 120 Exeter College - - . . - 106 „ Rector of - - 104 Forbes, W. II. - - 169 Fowler, Professor - - 116 Freeling, Rev. G. N. - - - 173 George, Rev. H. B. . - 119 Goodwin, A. - - - 169 Llammond, Rev. C. E. - _ - 174 Harcourt, A. G. V. - - 144 Holland, Professor - - 119 Hoole, Rev. C. H. - - 150 Hopkins, Rev. T. H. T. - - - 120 Ince, Dr. ... - - 120 Kitchin, Rev. G. W. - - 157 A 2 Liddon, Dr. . _ Page - 152 Lightfoot, Dr. - - - - 104 Lincoln College : Tutors and Lecturer of - 107 Macan, R. W. - 134 Magrath, Rev. J. R. - - - 170 Mowbray, R. G. C. - - - 129 Myers, E. - - - 135 Neate, Charles - _ - - 159 Nettleship, R. L. - - - 169 New College - - - 150 Oriel College - - - 145 Queen’s College, Pro-Provost of - - 170 Richards, H. - . - 136 Rolleston, Professor - - - 121 Salwey, Rev. II. - - - 124 Sampson, Rev. E. E. - - - 124 Scott, G. R. - - - 126 Shute, R. - - - 137 Thomson, J. B. - . _ - 142 Thorley, G. E. - - - - 163 Tozer, Rev. H. F. - - - 128 Trinity College - - - - 110 Page University College, Master of - - - 140 Wadbam College - - - - 110 Ward, T. H. - - - - - 171 Watson, Rev. A. - . . . 129 Wbittuck, Rev. C. A. - - - - 161 Worcester College - - - - 111 Wordsworth, Rev. J. - - - - 146 CiRCULAIl No. 11. As to all moneys borrowed by the Colleges - 175 Answer from University College - - 186 ?? Ballicl College - - 177 Merton College - - 182 Exeter College - - 179 Oriel College - - 183 Queen’s College - - - 184 New College - - 182 J? Lincoln College - - 180 55 All Souls’ College - - 176 55 Magdalen College - - - 180 55 Brasenose College - - 177 55 Corpus Christ! College - - 179 55 Christ Church - - 178 55 Trinity College - - 185 55 St. John’s College - - 184 55 Jesus College - - 180 55 Wadham College - - - 187 55 Pembroke College - - 184 55 Worcester College - - 187 No. 4. ' University of Oxford Commission, Sir, October 18, 1877. I AM desired by Lord Selborne to request tbat you will supply me with information, to be laid before the Commissioners at their approaching meeting, upon the following points : — 1. Whether the Statement of the revenue and sources of revenue of your Society contained in' the Report of the Commission presided over by the Duke of Cleveland may be relied upon as sufficient at the present time ; or, if not, what corrections are necessary to make it now applicable. 2. Whether the Commissioners can be furnished with a balance sheet, showing the income and expenditure of your Society for the last year. 3. Whether the Statements in the Report of the same Commission as to the prospective increase of the income of your Society can at present be relied upon, or whether they should receive any corrections, and whether any or what part of such prospective increase has been realised since the date of that Report. I am, &c. T. F. DALLIN, To the (Head) Secretary. College, Oxford. No. 7. University of Oxford Commission, Sir, November 26, 1877. The Commissioners are obliged to you for the information contained in your letter of the ult., in reply to their circular No. 4. I am desired by the Commissioners to call your attention to the Abstract of the Property, Income, and Expenditure of your College contained in the first volume of the Report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission at pages and to ask you what correc- tions are needful in that abstract in order to make it applicable to the past year 1876-7, with particular reference to the various heads of your College Expenditure contained under Article III. in that abstract. I am, &c. THOS. F. DALLIN, To the (Head) Secretary. College, Oxford. I. RETURN FROM THE UNIVERSITY. University Chest Office, Oxford, Sir, November 30, 1877. I HAVE the honour to submit to you, for tlie information of the Commissioners, returns re- specting the property, income, and expenditure of the University of Oxford, drawn up to correspond as nearly as may be to the statements printed at page 41 of volume I. of the Report of the Commis- sioners of 1872. In the instances in which the form of that statement has been departed from, it is believed that the information required will be more readily gathered from the balance sheets (also sent herewith) of each of the last five years. I am to add that in the event of the returns being printed, the curators would deem it a favour to be supplied with about twelve copies for their own use. I am, &c. (Signed) W. B. Gamlen, T. F. Uallin, Esq., Secretary. Secretary, University Commission, Oxford. A 2 4 Abstract of the Property, Income, and Expenditure of the University of Oxford. I . — The Property of the University on \Qth July 1877. (N.B. Corporate property is distinguished by the letter A., Trust property by the letter B.) (1.) Lands belonging to the University: Acreage A, Lands let at rack-rent - ,, B. Lands let at rack-rent The annual income thei'efrom is :■ — A. From lands let at rack-rent B. From lands let at rack-rent A. E. E. - 5,574 1 5 - 1,985 3 30 7,560 0 35 U s. d. - 10,028 19 if - 3,546 7 6 £13,575 6 11 In the income as here stated, deduction is made for fixed charges paid by the University ; but deduction is not made for repairs, insurance, collection of rents, or income tax. (2.) House property : £ s. d. £ s. d. A. Let on beneficial lease yielding in income - - - - 42 2 0 „ Let on long leases - - - 4G0 11 0 „ Let at rack-rent - - - 97 2 0 B. Let at rack-rent - 599 15 6 - 440 0 0 In the income as liere stated, deduction is made for fixed charges paid by the University, but deduction is not made for repairs, insurance, collection of rents, or income tax. The estimated annual rack-rent value of tlie houses let on beneficial lease is 300^. (3.) Rentcharges : £ s. d. A. Gross amount awarded - 1,052 5 10 B. ,, sj “ - 172 6 8 (4.) Other rentcharges, quit rent, &c., yielding an annual income: £ s. d. A. - . - . - 7 0 1 B. - - 1,156 4 2 (5.) Stocks, shares, and other investments of the net value of ; £ s. d. A. - - 1,671 10 0 B. - - 12,361 1 10 (6.) Other properties yielding in annual income : £ s. d. A, - - - - - 830 0 0 (7.) The University holds three houses on a lease, which expires in 1886, the net annual receipts from which are 163^. 15s. 2d. (8.) The University also holds a cottage and garden, containing la. 3r. Up. upon trust for the Professor of Rural Economy, to be used by him as an experimental ground for the objects of the said professorship. (9.) The University, including the buildings, museums, libraries, park, &c. is assessed to the local rate of Oxford at 3,682Z. The University Press building is assessed at 1,088L (10.) The University possesses the advowsons of five benefices and the presentation to two lectureships. The net annual value of these benefices and of the lectureships was returned in 1873 at 1,036^. Os. 7d. In re.spect of these benefices, annual augmentations are made out of the funds of the University to the amount of about 350?. (11.) The only property belonging to the University in respect of which a considerable increase of income at a not remote date may be expected is the Park Wood estate at Bexley, Kent, some 12 miles from London. This property consists of a wood of about 100 acres, which is now being laid out for building purposes, and which, from its proximity to good roads and a railway station, seems likely to attract the notice of builders. (12.) Since 1873 the University lias bought up the interests of the beneficial lessees in the houses named in Report of the Universities Commission of 1872, vol. II., p. 5, return A3., and the houses have been pulled down for the pm-poses of the new schools. It has also acquired the lessees' interest in two of the houses named in the speeial return of houses in the parish of St. Peter-in-the- East, at p. 1 20 of the same volume. One of these has been partially pulled down in connexion with the works at the new schools, and cannot become a soui’ce of income unless reinstated at a considerable cost. (13.) The lady referred to in vol. I., p. 42, of the above Report, paragraph (.5), has since died, and her annuity has determined. (14.) On the expiration in 188G of the beneficial lease by Merton College to the University (Re- port as above, vol. IT., p. 7, return A9., 1,) the income of the University will be decreased by about imi. (15.) The income and expenditure in respect of the General Fund of the University for the five years 1872-3 to 187G-7 will be seen from the audited balance sheets (sent herewith) as published in the “ University Gazette” in each year. The accounts of the year 1876-7 have not yet been audited. (16.) The income and expenditure on account of trust properties for the year ended July 15, 1877, may be summarised as follows : — . Income. From rents and profits of estates „ dividends on stocks, shares, &c. „ miscellaneous sources - Expenditure. Paid to persons or institutions beneficially interested Expenses on estates _ _ _ _ Carried to reserve or accumulated funds Sundries (printing, &c.) _ - . . Balances carried forward to next year’s account £ s. d. - 3,664 15 10 - 12,446 13 2 745 9 9 £16,856 18 9 £ s. d. 14,595 2 8 685 9 2 520 12 8 73 19 2 981 15 1 £16,856 18 9 (Signed) W. B. 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Designation. - £ s. d. £ d. £ s. d. £ s. d. — The Vice-Chancellor - - - 390 19 2 50 0 0 0 10 5 „ „ for a servant - - - - 49 9 7 — „ „ customary allowances - - - 11 5 0 461 13 9 5 0 0 0 1 0 The high steward - - - - - - - 4 19 0 2 0 0 0 0 5 The deputy steward - - - - - - - - 1 19 7 40 0 0 0 8 4 Vice-Chancellor’s assessor - - - - - - 39 11 8 10 0 0 0 2 1 Registrar of the Chancellor’s court - - - - - - _ 9 17 11 100 0 0 1 5 0 Keeper of the archives - - - - - 98 15 0 1 0 0 0 0 2 Solicitor to the university - - - - 0 19 10 130 0 0 1 7 1 Public orator . - _ - - - - 128 12 11 700 0 0 8 15 0 Two proctors . - . - - - - - 691 5 0 320 0 0 4 0 0 Four pro-proctors - - - - - *• - - 31G 0 0 15 15 0 — University coroners - - - - - - - - - 15 15 0 250 0 0 3 2 6 Esquire bedel - . . - - - 246 17 6 (50 Q 0) — „ arranging preachers - - - - 50 0 0 29G 17 6 100 0 0 1 5 0 Yeoman Bedel of Arts - - - - - - 98 1 5 0 100 0 0 1 5 0 )) - - - - - - - - 98 15 0 130 0 0 0 2 6 Sub-bedel (Vice-Chancellor’s) - - - - - - 129 17 6 120 0 0 1 10 0 University bailiff - - - - - - 118 10 0 (20 0 0) — „ superintending museum repairs - - 20 0 0 — 138 10 0 52 0 0 0 10 10 Two clerks of the market - - - - - - - 51 9 O 20 0 0 0 4 2 Deputy clerk „ - - - - - - - - 19 15 10 200 0 0 2 10 0 Clerk of the schools - - - - - - 197 10 0 GOO 0 0 7 10 0 Registrar of the university - - - - - - - 592 10 0 14 0 0 0 3 6 Verger of the university - - - - - - 13 16 6 80 0 0 1 0 0 Keeper of the university museum - - - - - - - 79 0 0 31 10 0 0 7 9 Three auditors of university accounts - - - - " - 31 o 3 £3,507 8 5 University of Oxford. Stipends paid to Examiners and Assessors in the year ending July 15, 1877. Number. Stipends. Income Tax. £ s. d. £ s. d. 5 at 10/. 50 0 0 0 12 6 5 „ 100/. - - - 1 1 assessor 5/. - - J 505 0 0 6 5 0 4 at 100/. - - -) 1 „ 50/. Decree 24, IV. 77 J 450 0 0 5 12 6 6 „ 60/. - - -1 3 „ 20/. - - - J 420 0 0 5 5 0 3 „ 35/. - - 6 „ 30/. - - - J 285 0 0 3 11 3 6 „ 20/. - 120 0 0 1 10 0 3 „ 60/. - . - 6 „ 60/.= - - 360/. 180 0 0 2 5 0 Less Lord Crewe’s benefaction - 10/. 350 0 0 4 10 0 3 at 60/. 180 0 0 2 5 0 3 „ 50/. 1.50 0 0 1 17 6 1 „ 30/. - - -1 6 „ 15/. - - -/ 120 0 0 1 10 0 3 „ 60/. - - -1 1 assessor at 5/. - - / 185 0 0 2 5 0 3 at 70/. 210 0 0 2 12 6 3 „ 60/. - - - 1 1 assessor at 5/. - - J 185 0 0 2 0 0 3 at 60/. 180 0 0 2 5 0 3 „ 10/. 10s. 31 10 0 0 7 9 3 „ 10/. 10s. 31 10 0 0 7 9 3 „ 10/. 10s. 31 10 0 0 7 9 3 „ 10/. 10s. 31 10 0 0 7 9 3 „ 10/. IOj. 31 10 0 0 7 9 1 „ 10/. 10s. 10 10 0 0 2 7 3 „ 10/. (Decree 11,11. 1875) 30 0 0 0 7 6 2 „ 5/. 5». - 10 10 0 0 2 6 Designation. - £ s. d. £ s. e revenue and sources of revenue made in Volume I., pp. 50-53 of the Report of the late Commission, requires correction in certain points, to the more important of which the attention of the Commissioners was immediately called. A minute on the subject, approved by the college at its first general meeting in 1875, is enclosed. (h.) That, as regards the Radclilfe Benefaction, the trusts of which (as shown in p. 5 of the enclosed minute) are somewhat inaccurately stated on p. 52 of the same volume, some important changes have taken place since the date of the Report of the Commission. 1. The Lord Chancellor has (1874), under an Act of Parliament, given permission for the appro- priation of 420?. annually to the foundation of additional scholarships. 2. He has also in the present year (1877) sanctioned the expenditure from the accumulated funds of a sum not exceeding 10,000?. on a long contemplated enlargement of the college buildings by the erection of a house for the master, and the conversion of the present house into college rooms. 3. Other less important changes in the income and expenditure of the college since the date of the Report shall be laid before the Commissioners. Question 2. A balance sheet of the income and expenditui-e of the Society during the last year shall be prepared and laid before the Commissioners with as little delay as possible. Question 3. No material change has taken place in the prospective increase of the income of the college since the date of the Report of the late Commission. A certain amount of house property let on lease at Pontefract has recently come, and more will shortly come into the possession of the college. The houses are, with few exceptions, mere cottages, and the large outlay required for necessary repairs and improvements will form a heavy tax on the resources of the Society. Our agricultural estates are all let on rack-rent, and any increase in their present value must depend upon the general conditions that may affect in the future this class of property. I am, &c. T. F. Dallin, Esq., (Signed) G. G. Bradley, Norham Gardens, Oxford. ’ Master. University College. (Enclosure.) Corrections required to be made in the Report of the Royal Commissioners of 1871-2. At the stated Half-yearly General Meeting of March 20th 1875, it was agreed to make the following formal entiy in the minutes as to misstatements concerning the college property in the Report lately issued by the Royal Commission appointed to examine the revenues of the Colleges and Universities of Oxford and Cambridge : — I. — In Vol. I., p. 50, § 6, it is stated as follow-s ; — Quit rents - . _ Average proceeds of sale of timber Properties entered on A IG £ s. d. 16 15 11 111 13 2 540 12 3 .P669 1 4 The average of the timber is correct, but it is to be noted that in the year 1871 nothing was received for timber. H. — The “ Properties entered on A 16,” ie., “ Other properties,” amounted not to 540?., but to 1,636?, in the returns sent in by the College to the Commissi oner. s'. 13 The college account was made up as follows : — £ Dr. Browne’s estate - - - - - 808 Halford’s stables (part of ditto) - - - 55 Linton Fund to recoup the college for sura paid by way of augmentation to curacy of Flamstead 74<* Ditto to Increase the college resources for Educa- tion Fund, i.e., tuition, prize, and library funds ----- 350* Ditto to enable the college to augment its scho- lars’ stipends - - - - 322* From tenants for dilapidations - - - 27 .F>1,636 The Commissioners 540Z. is arrived at by omitting the sums received by the college from the Linton Fund, amounting to *746^., for the purposes above specified, and by taking an average of the remaining items. III. — On page 51 “The other properties” is entered in the Commissioners’ Report as in the college return, i.e., at 1,G36^., including the above 746?. from the Linton Fund, and the total (net) income from' “Trust funds” is entered “at 2,503Z.” in a way which implies that the addition of the latter sum to the college corporate income will give the total which the college disposes of. Whereas the “Total (net) income from trust funds” is the income out of which the said 746?. is drawn. If, therefore, the college corporate income is set down at 11,526?. 19s. 2d., including this 746?., it ought to be noted that the “ net,” i.e., the disposable income from the trust funds, is 2,503?., less 746?., i.e., 1,757?. IV. — Again, lower down on page 51, it is stated that among the tuition receipts is included 300?. received “from the college.” This 300?. is part of the 746?. above mentioned taken from the Linton Fund. » V. — If, therefore, the sums mentioned on p. 51 as follows : — , £ s. d. (3.) Total corporate income - - - 11,526 19 2 (4.) Income (net) from trust funds - - 2,503 13 4 (5.) Tuition and education funds - - 2,127, 1 9 are meant to be added together so as t.tigive an idea of the disposable resoui-ces of the college, they ought to be entered thus, — £ s. d. (3.) Total corporate income, including 746?. taken from trust funds - - 11,526 19 2 (4.) Total income . (net)n.from trust funds after deducting the above 746?. - 1,757 13 4 (5.) Tuition and education funds, excluding 300?. which forms part of the 746?. mentioned above -• ^ - - 1,827 1 9 The grand total which the college disposes of would, therefore, be less than seems to be implied by the entries on p. 51 of the Cominissionm’s’ Report by 746?. and 300?., i.e. by 1,036?. VI. — Page 200, Synoptical Table B II. ;The same or a .similar observation to the above would apply to this synopsis, if it is meant to be^fimplied that the addition of the two sums of 11,526?. corporate income, and 2,503?.’ trust incoijae, would correctly indicate the total income of the college. VII. — Page 202, Table B IV. Expenditure from the trust funds. It- is stated that the fellows receive 587?. a year from the Linton Fund. ' What ought to be stated is that the Radcliffe Travelling Fe??ows, who are not even meml^rs of the college, receive that sum. “The fellows,” i.e., the fellows of the college, do not receive anything from the fund. On ^age 52 the number of the Radcliffe Travelling Fellows is incorrectly stated as ttvo. There are three Radcliffe Travellinfi: Fellows. o VIII. — Page 52, at top, it is stated that the annual value of a fellowship appears to be about 270?., ea:c?itswe of allowance for rooms, &c. This is wrong'. The estimated value of a fellowship, inclusive of roonrs, is about 270?. (N.B. — The words “ exclusive of allowance for rooms,” were inserted by the Commissioners after the last proof had been sent to the college for correction and had been returned to tlie secretary.) IX. — Besides the above mistakes, the meeting agreed that the objects of the Radcliffe Bene- faction Fund are altogether inaccurately described in various places of the Commissioners’ Report, and in particular on page 52, at bottom. It is there implied that the payment of travelling fellows and the purchase of advowsons stand ’on the same footing in their claim on the trust fund. The real case is, that Dr. Radcliffe’s will creates a definite charge of 600?. a year on the estate for the payment of travelling fellows, and then leaves the wliole residue of the estate upon trust for the purchase of advowsons. The Court of Chancery' has formally recognised this view by cjji^^ing the fund with extra payments to the iuculiibents of college livings. li 3 14 - University College, Oxford, December 1877. llie papers herewith submitted to the Commission contain statements on the following subjects : — 1. The corporate income and expenditure of the college in the years 1875-6 and 187 6-7. 2. Ihe corporate estates and the trust funds (the Radclift’e Benefaction Fund). 3. The Tutorial Fund. 4. The annual value of fellowshi})s of the college. I. {a) — Income of the College for tlie two years 1875-6 and 1876-7. 1875-6. 1876-7. From external sourees : £ £ Lands 4,609 4,639 House property . . . . . 1,012 1,215 Tithe rentcharges ----- 1,086 1,063 Other rentcharges ----- 38 169 Stocks, shares, &c. ----- 636 706 Other properties inclusive, in 1875-6 of 1,004/., and 1,770 («)3,043 in 1876-7 of 1,191/., taken from theRadclitle Bene- faction Trust Fund for Flamstead Curacy, the College Education Fund, and Scholarships. Timber ------ 164 The master from the Linton or Radcliffe Benefaction 9,315 525 10,835 525 Trust Fund. From internal income - - . - 9,840 2,553 11,360 (5)2,709 Total ----- 12,393 14,069 (a) In 187G-7 a loan of 1,495/. was made in lieu of a fine for renewal -of leases on house property. The sum of 1,431/., i.e., the above sum less expenses, formed part of the corporate income divisible among the master and fellows. As a receipt it is included among “ Other property, &c.” in 1876-7 in the sum of 3,043/. and on the e.xpenditure side it accounts for the marked diflFerence in the payments to the master and fellows between the two years 1875-G and 1876-7. No similar case of a fine or fine loan can occur for 12 years at least. (/>) The increase in the internal income in 1876-7 arises mainly from an increase of the college room rents. I. (h ) — The Expenditure of the College for the Two Years 1875-6, 1876-7. — 1875-6. 1876-7. £ £ 1. The master (including 525/. from the Linton Trust 1,086 1,362 Fund). 2. The fellows ------ 2,902 4,795 3. The scholars and exhibitioners - - - 1,651 1,821 4. Allowance to resident members on the foundation. 199 224 and gaudies. 5. University professors - - - - 6. Tutorial Fund, and College lecturers (prelectors) 361 528 7. Prizes - - . - - - 114 114 8. College officers, dean, bursars, &c. (not chaplain) 214 347 9. College servants ----- 972 934 10. Chapel and chapel services (including chaplain) 126 177 11. Libi’ary ------ 94 95 12. Subscriptions, donations, &c., and gratuities - 190 215 13. Maintenance of establishment in college 658 14. Repairs and improvements of college buildings 627 360 15. Rates, taxes, and insurance on college buildings 318 321 16. Augmentation of benefices - - - - 344 344 17. Interest on loans, and repayments - - - 391 ' 223 10,247 12,637 f Fixed Rentcharges, ^&c. on estates ■ \ Management of estates, and law charges - 132 272 132 482 19. Repairs and improvements on estates 1.755 781 20. Rates, taxes, and insurance on estates 154 231 2,313 1,626 21. Investments (Uomus Fund) - - - - 234 270 Sujnr.vRY. The master, fellows, &c. .'ind the college Items 1 to 17 10,247 12,637 Estate expenses - - - - Items 18 to 20 2,313 1,626 Investments - - - - Item 21 234 270 Total ----- 12,794 14,533 15 As to the income and expenditure for tlie two years 1875-6, 1876-7, the accounts of the latter year are abnormal in respect of the payments to the master and fellows. A loan of over 1,400^. in lieu of a 6ne on house property in St. Giles", Oxford, was raised and distributed in this year as mentioned above. No such case can recur with respect to this property for at least 12 years to come; nor in the case of other property belonging to the college is there any probability of fines of any kind being received to more than a very small amount. It may be noticed that the payments to scholars and exhibitioners, and to the tutorial fund and college lecturers have considerably increased since 1872. II. — ^With respect to the corporate estates in general. The leases on the house property in Pontefract mentioned on p. 51 of the Commissioners’ Eeport of 1872 have, some of them, already expired, and the rest are on the point of expiring. This house property is in a very bad condition, and the college is now engaged in a large outlay upon it. It is scarcely possible at the present time to estimate the prospective outlay and consequent change of income. But it will most probably be the case that the annual instalments for the payment of the contemplated outlay will be for many years to come at least as great as any increase in the annual income. There is no material change in the condition of the other corporate estates of the college, but the running out of beneficial leases and the heavy outlay required of late years for improve- ments, both to farms and houses, has necessitated the following loans, which are either actual or have been authorised by the Copyhold Commissioners, or are in contemplation in the immediate future, viz. : — For drainage on farms in Wales - In lieu of fine on houses in Oxford For buildings on farms in Wales - For house building in Pontefract - * For „ „ (say) £ 2.500 raised. 1,495 raised. 1.500 authox’ised. 1.000 authorised. 4.000 contemplated £10,495 The loans mentioned in the statement made to the Commissioners of 1872 of “moneys borrowed and still (1872) owing by the College,” are now repaid. As regards the trust funds (the Radclifle Benefaction Trust Fund) the Lord Chancellor as visitor to the college, has since 1872 assented to further charges on the fund, viz. : — (1.) An annual charge of not more than 420?. a year for the foundation of more scholarships in the college. (2.) The taking of a gross sum of 10,000?. from the accumulated capital of the fund (at present invested in consols) for the purpose of enlarging and improving the college buildings. The real estate which belongs to the trust is wholly agricultural, and there does not seem to be any present pro.spect of an increase of rents. The result of all tlie axxthorised charges upon the trust fund will be, as matters stand at present and supposing land to retain its present axinual value, to leave an annual free surplus of about 200?. The uninvested surplus of the fund amounted at Lady- day 1877 to about 2,000?. III. — The Tutorial Fund . — The annual income of this fund is now about 2,600?., of which the sum of about 500?. is contributed by the college [see I. {h) G, tutorial fund and college lecturers, in the account of the college expenditure for the year 1876-7), and the remainder is derived from the tuition fees of the undergraduate members of the college. Since 1872 the annual fee has been raised for all who have entered since that date, from 22?. Is. to 25?. 4s. The receipt s are distributed among the various tutors and lecturers, nine in number. Of these, three receive each 385?., which is the highest stipend, and the others receive stipends varying from 120?. to 260?. a year. IV. — Annual Value of Fellovjships . — The annual payment made to a resident fellow, on an average of the past five years, inclusive of all allowances, except the rooms allowance, but exclusive of the share of fines £>271 The annual payment made to a non-resident fellow, on an average of the past five years, inclusive of all allowances except rooms allowance, but exclusive of the share of fines = - - dt>244 The rooms allowance to a resident fellow = _____ £>24 But a resident fellow has to pay room-rent and rates, together about 22?. The amount of fines received in the last foui'teen years has been about 1,600?. This gives an average annual share to each fellow, whether resideixc or non-resident, during the past p'eriod, of about ___________ £8 The amount of fines to be received in the future will be very small. University College, Oxford, Sir, January 8, 1878. I AM sorry that my absence from home has delayed my answer to your communication of the 81st December. The Commissioners have now before them a full statement of the incoxne and expenditure of the college, which will, I hope, answer all the purposes of a balance sheet. I am, &c. T. F. Dallin, Esq. (Signed) G. G. Bradley. * It is impossible at present to give an exact estimate. B 4 16 III. RETURN FROM BALLIOL COLLEGE. Dear-Sik, I ENCLOSE the papers in answer to Circular No. 4. T. F. Daljin, Esq. Balliol College, 29th November 1877. I am, &c. (Signed) B. Jowett. Return A. 2. Question 1. — Tlie farms of Tackley Moreton and Oddington were sold in 1876, and the proceeds of sale invested in consols. Tomlin’s Farm and Mather's Field were sold in 1873-4, and the proceeds of sale, together with other money standing to the credit of the college, invested in tlie purchase of adjoining lands. The result has been to increase the area of the holding in Benton by al)ont 170 acres. The rental of the Benton property is now about 890Z., besides aboiit 60L paid as interest on money expended in building and draining. On the new letting the money formerly paid as draining interest was included in the rent. The increase in the rental represents partly the rent of additional lands purchased out of moneys in the hands of the Copyhold Commissioners, and partly tbe interest on money -expended in improvements by this college. Return A. 3. The beneficial lease of Marlborougli Arms fell in at Michaelmas 1876. The property is now let to the previous occupier at a rackrent of 30Z. The Rood Lane lease was surrendered in 1874, and the property relet on a building lease at a rent of 750Z. The whole of this rent is at present appropriated to doinus, and no part of it goes to the dividend of the master and fellows. The amount of the internal revenue has been considerably modified by the new rooms recently added to the college, and the consequent increase in the amount of the room rents and tuition fees. For accoimt of expenditure on new hall and buildings, see paper A. annexed. Referring to the replies of the college to the Commissioners’ further inquiries as to the mode of calculating dividends (Report, p. 225), it may be observed that several of the fellows now receive fixed annual stipends instead of being paid by dividend, and that the reserve allocated to domus and deducted from the gross rental has been considerably increased, the increase being mainly due to the appropriation for this purpose of the Rood Lane rent. The estimated gross rental for the years 1875-6, and 1876-7, and the mode of calculating dividend, will appear from the accompanying printed estimate, and the amount and application of the general revenues for the year 1875-6 will appear from the printed accounts for that year. Subject to these remarks I think the statement of revenue and sources of revenue contained in the Report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, may be relied upon as sufficient. IL A printed abstract of the revenue and expenditure account for the year 1875-6 is sent herewith. III. The properties belonging to the college on whicli, according to the Report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, an increase of rent might be expected, were those returned in A. 3 and A. 4 (see Report, Vol. L, p. 55). By the siu’render and re-granting of the Rood Lane lease the rental has been increased by i?739 By the expiration of the Marlborough Arms lease - - - - 28 Total increase - - - - - - - L'767 From the increased rental of the Rood Lane , ro[n.rty should be deducted the legal and other professional charges connected with the granting of this new lease. [ think the estimate of future increase may be relied on as sufficiently accurate. There is not at present any prospect of revenue from the coal mines at Benton. (Signed) C. P. Ilbert, Senior Bursar. 17 IUlliol CoLLi'Xiu in Account with the Copyjiouu Commissioners. — Extracted from the Books of the Copyhold Commissioners. Copyhold Commission. Cash. lS7(i. .Ian. IS. .Inly 13. Nov. 13. To Cush (Dividumls) „ Do. Do. „ Do. (Piirchasp of 5,1881. l.t. id. Consols) . Deo. 11. To Cash O’er Morrell anil Son. Co.sts). Deo. 12. To Cash (Purchase of 2181. ys. Gd. Consols). Total Dividends - I’cv Contra. 5. ri. £ «. d. £ (K 1870. £ .V. d. £ 6*. d. IG 1 .Ian. 0. By Cash (Dividends) 51 10 1 11 0 .July 0. „ Do. Do. - .51 11 {) 5,000 0 0 Sej). 2'J. „ Do. per ‘William Bur- 063 5 0 ■ gess. 3G5 5 2 „ Do. „ »W. H. Dash- 030 0 0 wood. 205 12 10 Oet. 2. „ Do. „ *R. Chaundrv 930 0 0 „ 5. „ Do. „ ‘Crosser Elton - 1,840 12 0 „ Do. „ ‘George Looselv 200 0 0 103 7 10 „ Do. „ ‘Isaac Molt 177 16 0 5,071 5 10 y> 27. „ Do. „ ‘H. A. Franklin 1,124 5 0 Total Dividends - 103 7 10 £5,074 5 10 £ S. (1. 5,C74 .€5,G74 • These sums, amounting in the aggre- gate to £5,570 18.S. 0(2., are the Purch.ase Mone.y of Tackley Oddington and More.ton. (Signed) C. P. ILBERT, Bursar. 187G. Dee. 31. To Balance carried down Consol Account. £ .V. 8,889 5 (L e a . 0 1870. .Ian. 1. Nov. 13. Deo. 12. B.v Balance brought down - „ Purchase ... „ Do. £ .«. d. - 3,482 14 2 - 5,188 1 4 218 9 (! £ .V. d. £8,889 5 0 £8,889 5 0 BALLTOL COLLECE. North Estates, Long Benton, &c. 1873. 1877. £ s. it. £ s. (/. Farm at Long Benton (Stephenson) - 282 0 0 Farm at Long Benton (Stephenson) 409 0 0 „ „ (Tomlin) - - 120 0 0 North-east Farm at Benton (Robson) 165 0 0 Land „ (Mather) - 10 10 0 North Farm at Benton (Wright) - 260 0 0 „ „ (The Vicar) 3 0 0 House, shop, and fields at Benton (Morrow) 52 0 0 Farm at the Heugh (Tomlin) - 210 0 0 Land at Benton (The Vicar) 4 4 4 „ „ (Dickenson) . - 113 0 0 Farm at the Heugh (Bates Reed) - 210 0 0 House and Laud at Stamfordham (Bigge) - 33 0 0 „ „ (Dickenson) - 113 0 0 House and land at Stamfordham (Bigge) 33 0 0 Rent for game (Laycock) 8 0 0 £771 10 0 — £1,254 4 5 Balliol College, Eoom Rents. Showing Increase from Nctc Rooms added to the. College. Year. — Single Rooms. No. of Sets. Now Sots added. £ s. d. 1874 Amount of Room Rents 2 87 - 1,265 8 0 1875 2 95 8 1,393 8 0 1870 2 104 9 1,507 8 0 1877 >> 2 111 7 1,6GG 8 0 Q 622.3. C IS A. Building Account. Up to March 25th, 1877. — 1S73-4. 1874-5. 1875-G. 1876-7. Total. — 1874-5. 1876-6. 1876-7. Total. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. a. £ s» d. To Rev. W. Jack- 600 0 0 — — - 500 0 0 son. To Mr. Waterhouse — 350 0 C 350 0 0 300 0 (1 1,000 0 ( To Horsman, 2,750 0 c 7,250 0 0 9,095 14 6 5,000 0 0 24,095 14 (> builder. To Clerk of works - 178 15 5 192 16 1 22S 9 9 54 12 1 649 13 4 To Porter at New — 45 0 0 52 1 0 25 19 0 123 0 0 By subscriptions 4,850 0 0 1,819 18 6 1,283 1 0 7,952 19 c Buildings. for New Build- To Capel, for hall — — 200 0 0 277 10 0 477 10 0 ings. furniture. To Parmer and — — SO 0 0 137 8 0 217 8 0 Brindley (car- ving). To Ward for coals — — 22 4 G — 22 4 6 (drying rooms). To Odell (for slass) — — — 400 0 0 400 0 0 By sale of stock 1,350 0 0 9,423 17 (J 5,000 0 0 15,773 17 6 To Hart and Son — — — 200 0 0 200 0 0 in consols. (gas fittings). To Boyd (for grates. — — — 230 0 0 230 0 0 &c.) To Metcalf (for — — — 129 3 6 129 3 6 glass shields). ToJeakes (kitchen — — — 750 0 0 750 0 0 fittings). By Domus 1873-4 1,637 16 1 — 340 16 9 5,407 9 3 To Pollit (decora. — — — 122 15 0 122 16 0 £3,428 15 6 tor). Interest on amount — — 216 17 5 — 216 17 5 borrowed from consols up to Mich. 187G. Totals 1873-4 Totals 3,428 15 5 7,837 10 1 10,240 7 7,627 7 7 29,134 6 3 £3,428 15 5 7,837 16 1 11,243 16 0 [6,623 18 9 29,1, '14 6 3 BALLIOL COLLEGE. Estimate of External Revenue and Charges thereon for 187G-7 compared with 1875-6. Revenue. 1875-G 1876-7 Charges. 1875- 6. 1876- 4 . £ s . d . £ s . d . £ s . d . £ s. d . .p , r South estates - KacJi 1 _ 1 Houses - 1,579 12 0 1,429 12 0 Allocation for income tax 44 11 8 53 15 3 - 1,142 - 172 4 10 4 0 1,254 202 4 10 4 0 Ditto for repairs on estates Quit rents 607 3 10 13 4 7 601 3 17 13 0 7 Building leases - 904 0 0 904 0 0 Scholarships - 860 0 0 860 0 0 Beneficial leases 8 14 4 6 14 4 Old exhibitions - - 257 7 6 256 16 9 The funds 163 11 1 320 2 10 Commons and stipends 185 16 11 172 16 10 Corn rents 170 10 0 201 6 4 Allowance to the Master - 5 13 4 5 13 4 Tithes - . - - 1,484 11 4 1,479 4 8 Allocation to the library - 7 0 0 7 0 0 Quitronts 2 6 2 2 6 2 Ditto chaplains - 50 0 0 50 0 0 Rentcharges 150 0 0 1,50 0 0 Domus battels 22 6 7 31 10 11 Subscriptions 27 19 0 36 2 0 Sundries - - - 23 15 2 23 15 2 Allocation to Domus - 1,096 16 0 1,096 16 0 Ditto fer building 100 0 0 100 0 0 3,292 10 1 3,301 3 5 Balance to be divided - 2,485 9 2 2,648 17 3 £.5,777 19 3 £5,950 0 8 £5,777 19 3 £5,950 0 8 Master and Fellows. 1875-6. s. d. 1876-7. £ s. d. Balance divided - - - - 2,485 9 2 Balance to be divided - 2,648 17 3 Portion of room rents, less income tax 589 10 9 Portion of room rents, less income tax 589 10 9 Degree fees, less income tax 116 0 8 Degree fees, less income tax i4» 0 0 3,191 0 7 3,386 8 0 Less reserved and carried to Domus 289 0 7 Less reserved and carried to Domus 272 1 0 Paid to master and fellows - £2,902 0 0 To be paid to master and fellows - £3,114 7 0 C. P. Ilbekt, Bursar. 19 ^ (O «o . Oi a o o o o o o O O o o o o o *'• o O o O -H 00 05 *0 CO f-H <£> o o o o O COCDCDOpOCOOOCOOCOtM-^ CO to CO O O t-» O O I'- 05 oi »o *o OtOCOCOOtCOOlOtOtOiOCO COI'-COO OI OI 04 O to 00 ^ O 05 04 ' 1 40 to C 1 O CO »>• O I 05 1 I t CO 00 r-H w n H I w i-:i W O W 1-^ O Q i-^l O I— I f-; 1-1 pq ' ^ o fl o ^ ^ *-D d o r2 'T3 ^ : d a . o g Q as § ^ o ' ^ ^ h S« _ d d (D <1^ ® — fT* rt C5 . N C3 • - VI ^ P c= hS kS S r3 CO a3 ^ *V ^ -5 -3 4H CO <3 bo .s "5 -2 -5 ^ o 05 a o 01 ' ■Sow sow w 42 ' w 2 '■/i a; M 0> .;-. (D f/3 d •*■* ca S o P r9 a , - 'Is rH Vt a 2i ^ d «j "2 fccto o» a 5‘-=:c„ a O d d ■*^ y, 'd ^ S d d “ i § « s s I a,--5 5/5 rJ d c; t— S C ^ 2 d a d d Jj a wo’w w^Soj a 0> cq bo I a o J-? ^ a >% © a ^10° . in (/j © , it o ^ & rd a © ^ o © o "p >; 9i, t , ^ bO . .2 tc ■p Is -= ' 5 . s-« a o cfi to O p 04 a d d P d o o p s go® •- 1 -S I • S d S . 2 _ ^ Q *2 C3 > > o o CO '-0 1 ^ , CO ; © o d t- © _d ‘ -2 rtS a'P a § 3 S ° § j a Sp 3 " "'I a 5 a a H a »" © 2 'S ^ © 'S w ■3-2 v C d g o o ci J s:> 3 a > <2^ > ^ ;z: ) d © 3 !-* a » cp CO H a hA '^00’^o;000'^4-t'-oooi Tf04O^?0OOO— '05-t05i:'l ^Tj*^tOr ^ to CO 00 t- 05 CO ^ 04 00 Tj< I © . AH ^ 2 p l-J >5 w d W S W d w J © O ‘tn .a ICJ'WUE-' O ^ U5 > 'o a o • ^ f^'S.s g d-^. d J3 ^ “do O 02 CC Oi © d ^ S 4-. d © ^ ^ a a W02( C 2 C. P. Ilbert, Senior Bursar. 20 BALLIOL COLLEGE. — Detailed Accounts, 1875-G. C. P. Ilbeht, Senior Bursar. Dr. Cr. ]\Iastp:r and Fellows. £, s. d. To the master. Interim dividend - - 200 0 0 „ „ „ Snell gnbernation - - 41 6 0 „ the fellows. Interim dividend - - 1,166 13 4 £ d. By transfer from external revenue - - 366 10 9 „ ,, ,, internal revenue - - 1,000 2 7 „ allowance from Snell Trust (gnbernation) - 416 0 1,407 19 4 To balance due to the master and fellows - 2,075 14 6 1,407 19 4 By amount to be transferred from external revenue when received - - -2,075146 £3,483 13 10 £3,483 13 10 Akkears of Master and Fellows. To the master - . • - 427 19 4 By arrears of external revenue, 1874-5 - - 2,067 10 2 „ the fellows - - 1,639 10 10 £2,067 10 2 £2,067 10 2 1 Degree Fees. Deficit last year - 29 8 0 By 19 M.A.’s ' . . . 119 14 0 To the master - 39 1 7 ,. 24 B.A.’s - - - . 100 16 0 „ the fellows - _ - 89 5 0 ,, J. Turves' .... 25 0 0 „ library - 61 14 5 Deficit 4 8 0 ,, the common room - 18 15 3 „ income tax - 2 15 1 „ reserved and carried to Domus 8 18 8 £249 18 0 £249 18 0 Teition. To tutors and lecturers - - - - 3,309 0 0 By alloeation in battels for : — „ deans ... - - 100 0 0 Tuition . - • . - 3,041 13 4 ,, museum and Hindustani fees for uudergra- Logic lecture ... 23 13 4 duate member* ... 1 14 8 6 Mr. W igan’s elocution lectures - 35 0 0 ,, tutors and lecturers of associated colleges 219 1 0 „ associated colleges account - 204 0 0 Deficit last year - 159 14 6 Deficit - 597 17 4 £3,902 4 0 £3,902 4 0 Building Account. To architect (A. WateTliousc) - 350 0 0 By subscriptions - - - - - 1,819 18 6 „ builder (T. Ilorsman) - 9,095 14 6 ,, sale of stock in consols - 9,423 17 6 „ clerk of works - 223 9 9 Capel for hall furniture 200 0 0 „ Farmer and Brindley, carving 80 0 0 ,, IVard & Uo., coals for drying rooms- 22 4 6 „ porter at new buildings 52 1 0 10,023 9 9 Balance - 1,220 6 3 £11,243 16 0 £11,243 16 0 Lire ARY. To librarian ^ • 76 19 0 By allocation from external revenue 7 0 0 „ dividend from degree fees 61 14 5 „ library fund - . - . 8 4 7 £76 19 0 £76 19 0 Chapel and Dean’s Account. flpifln’fi ar.couiit _ - 144 12 3 By allocation from external revenue . 50 0 0 _ 50 0 0 „ „ „ internal „ - 144 12 3 organist (E. Mills) - - - 30 0 0 „ Domus ... - 41 5 0 Martin, repairing organ - ■ 3 5 0 Nicholson, tuning ditto - - 8 0 0 £235 17 3 £235 17 3 21 Dr. Cr. Common Room. £ s. d. To steward of commou room - - - 11143 £ s. d. By balance last year - - - - 1717 0 „ allocation in fellows’ battels - - 74 12 0 „ dividend from degree fees - - - 18 15 3 ^£111 4 3 £111 4 3 Caution To amount due to cautioners - . - 8,252 0 0 Balance - - - 3,870 19 10 A.CCOUNT. By battels to be received ... 3,430 16 10 „ furniture in college rooms . - . 6,117 12 8 „ shop and store stock on hand - - 2,574 10 4 £13,122 1'9 10 £12,122 19 10 Battels To balance ... - - 3,430 16 10 Account. By battels unpaid at end of year 1875-6 - 3,430 15 10 £3,430 16 10 £3,430 16 10 I Domestic Account, 1875 - 6 . To meat, poultry, and fish - 2,596 19 0 By transfer from internal revenue (battels) - 8,373 4 4 ,, eggs, butter, milk, cream, and cheese - - 873 5 11 ,, bread and flour ... 216 9 10 „ groceries and Italian goods - 172 13 5 „ vegetables and fruit - - - - 335 3 3 „ beer, porter, cider, and wine - 160 13 4 „ wood and coals (college rooms inclusive) - 360 19 11 „ crockery - . . - 43 8 4 ,, utensils - - . . 8 17 5 „ new linen - - . . 0 6 3 „ washing (undergraduates’ accounts inclusive) 572 19 1 „ stationery and printing 16 13 2 „ gas - - 210 12 2 water ----- 18 6 0 „ repairing and cleaning windows and beating carpets . - _ - 78 5 9 „ Life assurance and deferred annuities of ser- vants - - - . ,5.') 3 7 ,, sundry repairs - . - 32 3 1 ,, salaries and wages . . - - 1,739 0 1 1 ,, labour in garden, &e. 30 9 4 „ sundries - - - - 1 1 9 4 7,533 19 1 Balance . - - 839 5 3 £8,373 4 4 £8,373 4 4 FuitNITUKE Account. 'To value of furniture in rooms at end of year By interest for use of furniture - 298 1 6 1874-5 - . . . - 5,371 4 8 „ depreciation of furniture on vacating rooms - 528 7 0 „ amount paid for furniture in 1875-6 - - 1,234 10 5 „ charges for valuer’s fees and stamps - 39 19 0 „ valuer’s fees and stamps - 39 19 0 ,, furniture from 26, St. Giles’ - 50 10 6 Balance - - - - 380 16 7 „ value of furniture in rooms at end of year 1875-6 . - 6,117 12 8 £7,034 10 8 £7,034 10 8 Shop and St( 3RE Account. To value of stock on hand at end of vear 1874 -5 1,171 18 5 By amount received on this account in 18 75 -6 - 2,08 4 !l 11 „ amount paid on this account in 1875-6 - 3,401 18 11 ,, value of stock on hand at end of year 1875-6 2,574 10 4 Balance - - . 85 2 11 £4,659 0 3 £4,659 (> 3 I NCOME l'Tt0.5I Frust Funds. To the master, Snell Gubernation 41 6 0 By allowances from Snell Trust : — „ Domus, Snell privilege 82 12 0 Gubernation - . - 41 6 0 „ Snell dinner - - - - 11 2 2 Privilege . - . - 82 12 0 „ scholars and exhibitioners 209 19 5 Dinner - - . . 1 1 O 2 Prosser fund . . - 209 19 5 £344 19 7 £344 19 7 Funds Special. To librarian . , - - 8 4 7 By balance last year - - - 6.5 7 3 T, , f Preacbership - 77 10 3 „ dividends from Childs & Co.; — miance . . 54 3 6 Library (two years) - - 16 9 7 — 131 13 9 Preacbership (two years) - 31 1 10 Powell (two years) - - 26 19 8 — 74 11 1 £139 18 4 £139 18 4 C 3 22 Dr. To eight scholars „ income tax - - - „ examination for scholarships - Balance Bkakknbuky. Cr. £f s. d. 495 0 0 4 2 7 12 2 0 276 9 11 41 A'. il By balance last year - . - 347 14 6 „ dividends from Lancashire and Yorkshire llailway - - - . . 440 o 0 41787 14 6 £787 14 6 To thirteen exhibitioners „ income tax „ gubernation - „ privilege „ dinner „ insurance „ subscription to school ,, ordinary repairs „ extraordinary repairs - „ printing „ law charges - Balance Snell. - 1,375 0 0 14 13 6 41 6 0 82 12 0 11 2 2 19 1 6 10 0 0 115 6 0 104 3 0 0 17 0 190 3 6 - 425 1 3 By Snell rents „ dividends from funds „ net receipts from timber Balance last year £2,389 5 1 1 - 1,759 10 0 187 7 3 266 16 0 175 12 8 £2,389 5 11 BALLTOL COLLEGE. I. The Property of the College. ARnual Income from — A. Lands let at rack rent _ . _ _ B. „ „ Woodland Hoii.se property : A. Let on beneficial leases yielding in annual income - „ Let on long leases - . . _ „ Let at rack rent - - - - - Tithe rentcharges - - - - ' - Other rentcharges, quit rents, &c. - - - Stocks, shares, and other investments, A. - J) 5) >> >1 !> B. Other properties : Average last seven years, College and Snell Woodlands - Building and drainage, interest 1887 ~ - Excess of tithes, &c. in 1875-6 - - - - £ (I. 2,698 1 6 4 1,796 15 7 45 9 0 6 14 4 904 0 0 802 10 0 83 10 0 S3 4 2 421 11 7 £ 8 . d. 4,586 0 11 1,118 4 4 1,479 4 8 3.53 12 6 320 2 10 884 18 7 588 5 9 Assessed to local rate about £2,103. Caution money =P8,020. Michaelmas 1877. II, Income of the College in the Year 1876-7. (1.) Income derived from external source.s A 17 B18 Lands - - - - House property - - - Tithe rentcharges Other rentchai’ges Stock, shares, &c. Other properties : Building and drainage interest, &c. Excess of north tithes - Timber - - - - £ s. d. 2,683 16 4 202 10 0 1,479 4 8 1,264 6 10 320 2 10 83 13 8 421 2 1 90 0 0 £ s. d. 1,734 10 0 884 IS 7 45 9 0 6,544 16 5 2,664 17 7 300 0 0 122 13 2 122 13 2 Payment to master from the benefice of Huntspill Payment to master and college from Snell Trust fund 6,967 9 7 2,542 4 5 (2.) Income derived from internal sources £ s. d. - 3,496 17 8 23 (3.) Total corporate income : From external sources - - £6,967 9 7 From internal sources - - 3,496 17 8 10,464 7 3 (4.) Total income from trust funds - - . 2,704 17 11 Interest paid by college to trust funds for sums bor- rowed for building . _ » _ 4 Sq q 4 3,184 18 3 (5.) Tuition fund. Received from under- graduates - - _ - 2,873 15 4 III — The Expenditure of the College in the Year 1876-7. 1. The master (including 300Z. from tlie living of Hunt- spill and 36L 17s. from Snell Trust - - - 2. The fellows (eleven) - - - _ 3. The scholars and exhibitioners - - . 4. Allowance to members on foundation 5. University professors - - - - 6. Tutorial fund and othei- instruction - - - 7. Examiners and prizes ^ . 8. College officers,^ deans, and bursars - - - 9. The college servants (gratuities) _ - . 10. The chapel and chapel services _ - _ 11. The library - - . - 12. Subscriptions, donations, &c. - - - - 13. Maintenance of establishment - - . - 14. New building (14,906^. 15s.), repairs &c. (482^. 7s. Ir7) 15. Rates, taxes, insuran<;e, &c. on college buildings 16. Augmentation of benefice. 17. Interest on loans . . _ . . 18. Management of estates and law charges 19. Repairs and improvements on estates 20. Rates, taxes, insurance, &c. on estates 21. Investments, loan to Snell Trust £ s. d. 923 18 11 2,601 14 6 1,673 0 9 161 12 0 441 13 4 30 0 0 350 0 0 30 0 0 88 5 0 98 9 8 320 0 0 147 4 9 15,389 2 1 -386 18 6 480 0 4 223 11 3 589 1 U 263 3 101 £ s. d. 2.3,121 19 10 1,075 16 3 1,000 0 0 £25,197 4 1 Expenditure of Income arising from Trust Funds, 1876-7 (B 18). Scholars and exhibitioners - - - - 2,318 11 2 The college - - - - 97 4 10 Augmentation of livings - - - - 206 13 10 Miscellaneous _ _ - _ - - - 453 18 3 Balance (excess of income over expenditure) - - - 108 10 2 £3,184 18 3 At Michaelmas 1877 the Copyhold Commissioners held 8,889(. 5s. consols on behalf of the college. The college has spent on building, during the last four years, as follows :- 1873-4 £ 3,428 s. 15 d. 5 1874-5 - - - 7,837 16 1 1875-6 - - - - 10,240 7 2 1876-7 - - - - 14,906 15 0 € 4 £>36,413 13 8 24 IV. RETURN FROM MERTON COLLEGE. Merton College, Oxford, Sir, 29th January 1S78. I AM requested by the warden and fellows of this college to forward to you their balance sheet for the last half year, as also an abstract of their accounts for the years ending Michaelmas 1871 and Michaelmas 1877. These abstracts include the sums received and expended on the trust as well as on the corporate account. I am instructed also to say that though the statement of the revenue of Merton College issued by the former Commissioners contains inaccuracies, it may be relied on as sutHcient for the present time, subject to the corrections made in the subjoined paper D. The warden and fellows do not fully understand the mode in udiich the former Commissioners arrived at their estimate of the prospective increase of income. In their return A 3, the gross esti- mated rental is 4,447?., which, after deduction of the present rents, 1.30?. 10s., and the land tax 13()?. 4s. Gt?., leaves for the prospective; increase (gross) 4,180?. .5s. 6d. The Commissioners, however, give as the increase “about 4,691?.,” a sum greater than the full annual value of the property. With respect to the prospective increase on the returns A1 and AGa, it .should be observed that the estimate of the Commissioners (8,595?.) is based on the supposition that all the beneficial leases granted to the incumbents of college livings will be withdrawn. The pro, spective increase would otherwise be 7,656?. 4s. 7d. On the returns generally the warden and fellows desire mo to point out ; — 1. That no deduction from the gross rent appears to have been made for tithes where they are payable not by the tenant but by the college. 2. That in all probability the rents received from rackrent farms must be in some instances reduced. This reduction has already been made in two cases, and several applications have been made by tenants for a revaluation of their holdings. 3. That a very great outlay for new buildings will be required in almost every case in which a beneficial lease is terminated. 4. That the three benefices which on p. 58 of the Keport are .said to receive annual augmentations, should be described as holding rentcharges to the extent of 150?. on the Princes Risboi’ough Estate. In considering the enclosed abstracts B.C., the Commissioners will observe that the payments to postmasters and other scholars have greatly increased since 1871, and that in 1877, although three fellowships were then vacant, the income of the college did not equal its expenditure. I have, &c. (Signed) S. Edwardes, T. F. Dallin, Esq. Bursar. A. Merton College, Balance Sheet for the half-year ending Michaelmas, 1877. Senior Bursar. Receipts. Expenditure. £ s. d. £ s. d. Balance from last account - 2,288 2 3 Balance from last account - — Reserved rents - 1,243 6 8 Warden and Fellows, &c. - - 4,785 13 0 Rack-rents ... - 3,678 19 6 Postmasters and others - - 1,428 0 0 Quitrents ... 50 12 8 College buildings, &c. - - - 1,706 15 0 Tithes ... - 2,607 4 2 Expended on estates - - 764 2 11 Arrears ... — Miscellaneous - - 125 7 1 Timber and minerals - 236 14 4 Grants and donations - - 135 0 0 Copyhold fines — Subscriptions - - 29 6 0 Dividends on stock 450 0 0 Paid to junior bursar - - 737 14 1 By sale of stock — Balance at Old Bank - - - 1,014 17 10 Miscellaneous 171 16 4 £10,726 15 11 £10,726 15 11 Receipts. Balance, April 30tli, 1877 Divkleiuls to November 10th, 1877 -Messrs. Child’s Account. I Expenditure. £ s. d. I 972 6 10] Transferred to Old Bank 67(5 12 4 ^ Purchase of lease, 45, St. John Street, E.C. . . - Balance, November lOtb, 1877 £ s. d. 450 0 0 362 0 0 836 19 2 £1,648 19 2 £1,648 19 2 25 JuNioK Bursar. £ s. d. £ s. d. Composition, dues, caution money 208 6 9 Composition, dues, caution money Kitchen and buttery - - ;| 1,756 3 9 returned 376 10 0 Stores - Kitchen and buttery ■ _■ " j 1,666 *7 9 Servants - 297 9 6 Stores / Decrements - 72 17 6 Servants 587 5 4 Establishment - - 198 15 3 Pensions 101 18 0 From senior bursar - 737 14 1 Decrements 42 9 6 Establishment 218 10 9 Domus 248 4 11 £3,271 6 3 £3,271 6 3 Balance, 1,014/. I7s. 10^. for llie ooUege. Examined and approved. (Signed) Received for tutors - - - ,, letters - „ glazier . - - _ - „ coal merchants - - - _ Paid to tutors ------ „ letters ------ „ glazier.s! - _ - . . „ coal merchants ----- * Outstanding accounts - - _ - * Treated in the above accounts as received. R. B. Marsham. William Esson. J. W. Russell. £ s. d. 433 2 0 15 IG 4 15 19 7 49 10 433 2 15 IG 15 19 49 10 407 4 Abstract Receipts, B. Merton College. of Accounts for the year ending Michaelmas 1871. Expenditure. Balance from last account Reserved rents * Rackrents, &c. Dividends on stock Timber Miscellaneous - Domus account Caution money, &c. £ - 1,700 - 2,239 - 11,605 - 2,050 - 681 - 4,773 - 883 s. 18 5 5 0 12 15 8 d. 6 9 0 0 10 10 0 £23,934 5 11 * Rackrents Quitrents Tithes - Warden and Fellows, &c. Postmasters and others IMiscellaneous - - - - Grants, subscriptions, &c. Servants’ wages and pension, s - Tradesmen’s bills . - . Domus account ... Caution money, &c. . . - Balance to the College at the Old Bank £ s. ’. (c.) The college has sold the advowsons of the livings of Little Fransham in Norfolk and Rype in Sussex. (See Return, p. 292.) The money arising from the sale (4,000?.) and the interest accruing from the date of sale, has been invested by the Copyhold Commissioners. This capital and interest, however, at the present time can only be used for the purchase or augmentation of livings. ((?.) In the Report of the Commissioners of 1874, the Return A. 19, p. 271, vol. II., must not be taken as a return of income in the ordinary sense, over which the college can exercise control. It was thought that the items therein specified were required in answer to the questions put to the college l)y the Commission pi’esimber 2nd, 1877, examined and allowed. J. P. Lightfoot, Rector. William Ince, Subrector. CiiAS. Wm. Boase, Fellow. Henry Nottidge Mo.seley, Fellow. A correct copy of the balance sheet. (Signed) J. P. Lightfoot, Rector. Exeter College. Dividend Balance Slieet, 1877. £ s. d. Rents, titbe.s, and other divisible sums (see. note) - - - _ 6,498 9 2 £ .s. d. Taxes, &c. ----- - 281 15 51 Share to Domus - - - - 572 0 H- Scholarship fund . - - - - - 1,348 6 6^ Rector, fellows, and suspended fellow.ships - - - 4,296 6 £6,498 9 2 December 14th, 1877, examined and allowed. A correct copy of the balance slieet. V J. P. Lightfoot, Rector. William Ince, Subrector. Chas. Wm. Boase, Fellow. W. W. Jackson, Fellow. (Signed) J. P. Lightfoot, Rector. The total sum in this balance sheet does not accurately correspond with the total given in page 3, II. 1 ; as a portion of the room rent is legally divisible, and a small sum from the rent of lands is set aside for the payment of King Charles’ scholars. (Signed) J. P. Lightfoot. Exeter College. Return of Income and Expenditure for the year 1876-7. (See Report, Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, Vol. I., p. 61.) I. — The Property of Exeter College, 1876-7. (1.) Lands helovging to the college . : — A. R. p. Acreage, A. Lands let at rackrent - - - - - - 2,249 3 29 B. Lands let at rackrent - - - - - - 198 1 13 2,448 1 2 The annual income from .£ d. A. Lands let at rackrent - - - - - - 4,674 7 5 B. Lands let at rackrent - - - - - - 331 16 0 ;> £5,006 3 30 In the income as here stated, deduction is made for land tax and other fixed charges, but not for property tax, insurance, I’epairs, or collection of rents. (2.) House Property : ' . A. Let on beneficial leases yielding in annual income Let at rackrent _ _ . . B. Let at rackrent _ - - . £204. 7 ] 1 £ 6'. d. £ ,s. d. - 4 3 3 - 182 14 8 186 17 11 - 17 10 0 In the income as here stated, deduction is made for land tax and other fixed charges paid by the college, but not for property tax, insurance, repairs, or collection of rents. The estimated annual rackrent value of houses let on beneficial leases is oOl. (3.) Tithe rentcharges : — A. Gross amount awarded _ . - _ (4.) Other rentcharges, quit rentf^, d’C., yielding in annual income — A. B. - - - £ s. d. - 806 2 10 - 306 18 4 - 32 0 0 (5.) Stocks, shares, and other investments of the net annual value of — A. - - - - - - - - - - 260 0 0 B. - - - - - - - -756 64 (6.) Other q)coperties on long leases, yielding a net rent of - - - - 5 5 0 (7.) The college, including the buildings, the rector’s lodging.s, the college garden, &c., is assessed to the local rate of Oxford at 1,460^. 16s. The rate of assessment is, it is believed, at present under revision, (8.) Above 8,000?. is held by the college on account of caution money ; enough, on a debtor and creditor account, to repay all caution moneys in the hands of tlie college. (9.) The college possesses 11 benefices, of which the annual income is reported to be 5,019?. 14.s. 8(?. To another living, the Dean and Chapter of Exeter nominate one who is or has been a fellow of the college. The college also holds the benefice of Kidlington, which is annexed to the headship. Three advowsons have been sold, and the proceeds of the sales, together with invested interest, have purchased 7,483?. consols. The annual interest of this sum of stock is included under (5.) B. above. II. — Income of the College in the Year 1876-7. (See Report, Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, Vol. 1., p. 62.) (1.) Income, after deducting land tax and other fixed charges, derived from external sources: — A. 17. B. 18. i? S. d. £ s. d. Lands - - - - - . - 4,674 7 5 331 16 0 House property . - - . 186 17 11 17 10 0 Tithe rentcharges ----- 881 7 0 Other rentcharges, &c. - - - . 306 18 4 32 0 0 Stocks shares, &c. - 260 0 0 756 6 4 Other properties ----- 5 5 0 — £>6,314 15 8 The Vicarage of Kidlington annexed to headship 168 0 0 £6,482 15 8 £1,137 12 4 (2.) Income derived from 'iti?erRa? .sources (A. 20 ). £ s. d. Income from room rents, fees, profits of establishment, and other like sources 7.808 13 1 (3.) Total corporate income, — s. d. From external sources ----- 6,482 15 8 From internal sources _ - - _ _ 7,803 13 1 14,286 8 9 (4.) Total income (net) from trust funds (B. 18) - - 1,137 12 4 (5.) Tuition fund, received from undergraduates - - 3,271 16 0 ^^8.) Prospective increase of income. — The only property in respect of which any increase of rent may be expected is the house' property held under beneficial leases, as returned with other property in A. 3. The estimated increase will be, — On and after December 1880 about 9?. per annum. On and after December 1882 about 30?. „ 31 III. — The Expenditure of the College in the Year 1876-7. 1. The rector (the benefice of Kidlington included) (a.) 2. The fellows and suspended fellowship.s - - _ (6.) 3. The scholars and exhibitioners - . . . (c.) 4. Allowance to resident members on the foundation and others employed in tuition 5. University professors - - , _ _ (d.) 6. Tutorial fund and other instruction . _ _ 7. Examiners and pri;^es _ _ _ - . 8. The college officers, sub^rector, dean, &c. - - _ 9. The college servants _____ 10. The chapel and chapel .services - _ _ _ (e.) 11. The library 12, Subscriptions, donations, &c. . . _ _ 13, Maintenance of establishment in college - - - 14, Repairs and improvemenhs, college buildings 1.5. Rates, taxes, and insurance, college buildings 16. Augmentation of benefices _ _ _ . 17. Interest on loans ------ (/.) 18. Management of estates and law charges - - - 19. Repairs and improvements on estates 20. Rates, taxes, and insurance on estates (exclusive of land tax) 21. Investments ------ 1,422 7 11 3,741 18 10 1,939 19 9 462 2 3 71 9 3 410 0 0 2,089 11 11 265 10 0 260 6 11 1,055 19 0 406 3 6 394 2 4 52 17 0 12,572 8 8 138 18 0 1,264 10 0 179 9 10 1,582 17 10 239 16 5 £14,395 2 11 Notes. (a.) 2. The Suspended fellowship fund now amounts to 1,586L 5s. Ofrf. A portion of this fund has been invested in the purchase of l,000l, reduced 3 per cent. (5.) 3. The amount stated as expended is not likely to be sufficient hereafter, as the college has lately established five Natural Science scholarships at 80/. per annum each. (c.) 4. In the return of the expenditure of the college under the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, the amount of allowances was included under No. 2, in this account they are given separately. (rf.) 6. The college has at the close of the year 1877 found it necessary to add 300/. to this fund. (c.) 11. See § (6), in this return for expenditure of the library for the past year. Its income has been greatly increased through the sale of the college interest in timber growing on estates in Herts and Surrey. The value of the timber sold was reported in the return for 1871 as 72/. on an average of fifteen years. The capital arising from the sale of the college interests, present and prospective, in the timber on these estates has been invested in the purchase of landed property let at 245/. per annum, and in the purchase of 1,108/. 15s. 107 under III. 6, 3, p. 4 - - - - J i £942 0 9 ( 7.) The annual value of the exhibitions varies from SOL to 60L J) 4 Tlie lands cn’ the college, amountiug to 2,448 acres, ai'c let at rackrent, and at their full value ; the average rent being not flir from '■11. Is. per acre. The estates are for the most part in goo9,969 11 0 * Of this sum 2071. 11?. is attributable to trust property. Ill the income as here stated, deduction is made for fixed charges paid by the college, viz., land tax, tithe and quit rents ; but deduction is not made for repairs, insurance, collection of rents, or income tax. (2.) House property : — A. Let on long leases ; yielding in annual income „ Let at rackrent - - - - £ 555 941 d. 0 0 £ s. d. 1,496 50 B. Let at rackrent ------- In the income as here stated, deduction is made for fixed charges paid by the college, viz., land tax ; but deduction is not made for repairs, insurance, collection of rents, or income tax. (3.) Tithe rentcharges : — £ s. d. A. Gross amount awarded - - - _ . 1,294 7 11 (4.) Other rentcharges, quitrents, &c., yielding in annual income — A. - - - - - - - - - ] 42 7 3 B. - - - - - - - - - 100 0 0 (5.) Stocks, shares, and other investments of the net annual value of — A. - - ■ - - - - - - 551 0 5 B. - - - - - - - - 309 17 6 II. Income of the College in the year 1877. (1.) Income after deducting fixed charges, rates, and taxes. ' A. B. Ordinary income — £ s. d. £ s. d. Lands - - - - 9,367 1 6 396 16 1 Houses - - - - 1,467 5 0 49 7 6 Tithe rentcharges - - - - 1,160 16 0 — Other rentcharges - - - - 142 7 3 100 0 0 Stocks, &c. - - - - 551 0 5 309 17 6 Miscellaneous - - - 208 11 8 107 9 1 Extraordinary receipts : — Timber Stone, &c. - Loan repaid Borrowed on mortgage Borrowed from bankers Excess of expenditure over income (see below) (5.) The tuition fund — Received from undergraduates in the year 1876-7 (1.) Expenditure of corporate revenue, 1877. Ordinary expenditure : — 1. The provost (the canonry of Rochester and the rectory of Burleigh not included) 2. The fellows (17), allowances not included 3. Scholars and exhibitioners _ . 4. Allowances to resident members on the founda- tion - - - - - 5. University professors - _ - 6. Tutorial fund - - - - 7. Examiners - - _ _ 8. College officers - - - - 9. College servants - . - 10. Chapel - - - - - 11. Library 12. Subscriptions, donations, &c. 13. College establishment - - - 14. College fabric repairs - - - 15. College rates, taxes, insurance - 16. Augmentation of benefices 17. Interest on loans and repayments 12,897 1 10 216 2 10 97 3 6 15 0 0 1,300 0 0 500 0 0 15,025 8 2 • 1,403 4 6 .£>16,428 12 8 the year 1877. £ s. d. 411 1 8 4,434 4 1 1,101 7 4 333 18 9 10 0 0 189 16 0 40 0 0 328 4 2 182 2 5 952 5 3 42 17 3 396 0 0 2,507 0 5 1,501 0 0 10,928 17 4 36 Brought forward 18. Management of estates - 19. Repairs on estates 20. Insurances on estates 21. Annuities - - - 22. Abatements of rent' - _ . _ Extraordinary expenditure : — 23. New buildings on estates, j>rovided for by loan - 24. New buildings on estates, not provided for by loan 25. Surveyor’s and law charges on above 26. Repayment of loan . . _ . £ s. d. - _ 429 7 O o - - 741 7 4 - 103 18 4 - - 81 4 10 £ 10,928 s. 17 d. 4 86 5 0 2,053 4 6 1,392 2 9 1,425 224 404 6 3 18 (2.) The expenditure, in the year 1877, of the follows ; — Scholars, exhibitioners, &c. - - - The college - The treasurers . _ _ _ Divinity lecturers . - . . Easter preacher - _ _ _ Book funds - . . - - Subscriptions (estates) - - - Clrant to church restoration (estates) Extraneous charities _ . _ Insurances - - - - _ Repairs - - - - _ Augmentation of benefice _ - _ Investment ----- Balance (excess of income over expenditure) net 4,107 12 7 .^>16,428 12 8 income ari&inof o from trust funds £ s. d. - 420 7 1 - 77 12 0 - 6 5 2 - 56 16 4 - 4 4 11 - 42 6 6 - 5 0 4 - 87 10 0 - 43 4 4 - 4 12 0 - 14 5 5 - 69 3 6 - 47 19 0 - 84 3 5 £963 10 5 was as (3) The average annual value of a fellowship is 264L with certain allowances during residence. (4.) The annual value of a tutorship is 200^., and of a Iccturex’ship from 60^. to 200l. (5.) The annual value of a scholarship is 807 (6.) In 1877 tliere were in the college 7l scholars and commoners and two bible clerks paying tuition fees. Notes to Universities Commission Rejwrt (Vol. I., jxp. 64-67). I. (1.) The college is not able to state the present net annual rackrent value of the lands let on beneficial leases. (2.) The difference between the amount of annual income arising from houses let on long leases, as stated in the Commissioners’ returns (6307) and the amount now returned by the college is caused by two of the sites for houses being still unlet. (6), (7), (8), (9). The college has no corrections of any importance to make in the statements of the Commissioners under these heads. II. (1.) The expression “fixed charges,” as here used by the Commissioners appears to have a different meaning from the same expression as used in I. (1), and to include all rates and taxes, as well as land-tax, tithe and quit rents. (2.) No part of the income derived from room rents, entrance fees, graduation fees, or other sources of internal income is carried to the corporate account. (See Commissioners’ Report, vol. IL, pp. 303, 304). (6.) Prospective increase of income : (i.) Since the juiblication of the Commissioners’ Report, the leases of those properties upon which the calcidation of the Commissioners as to the increase of income to be realised by 31st December 1880 was founded, have all expired. (ii.) The property expected to fall in before 31st December 1885 is held on leases which expire at Lady-day, 1885. The college has not yet thought it necessary to obtain any estimate of the value of the property for letting at rackrent. (iii.) The college has no present intention of running out the leases, which would otherwise expire before 1895. H7 III. (1.) 5. The college is bound to pay to the Regius Pi-ofessor of Modern History the emoluments of a fellowship, or a commutation of 250Z. a year ; and it lias the power, if it pleases, of electing the professor to a fellowship. The present Regius Professor has been so elected, and the payment to him is included among the fellows’ payments (2). VII. RETURN EROM QUEEN’S COLLEGE. Queen’s College, Oxford. My dear Sir, 30th October 1877. In answer to your letter (No. 4) of October 18th, which I duly laid before the society, I am desired to reply, — I. — The information contained in the Report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission is of at least three kinds : — (1.) Details supplied by the college on forms supplied by the Commissioners. (2.) Tables and tabulated statements prepared partly by the Commissioners and partly by the college under the direction of the Commissioners. (3.) Inferences drawn by the Commissioners partly from the details, but mainly from the tabulated statements. Of these kinds of information (1.) is for 1871 reliable, (2.) is less reliable, (3.) is still less reliable. The college was unable to settle whether the statement contained in the Report was to be relied upon as sufficient, as it was not explained for what purpose its sufficiency was to be estimated. It is certainly not sufficient to enable the Commissioners to judge what proportion or amount of revenue can be spared for purposes outside the college without affecting the efficiency of the college. It is hoped that the Commissioners will not take any action upon imformation concerning the property of the college contained or purporting to be contained in the Report without further com- municaLon with the college. II. — I am desired to forward, foe the information of the Commissioners, a copy of the summary of receipts and expenditure of the college for the year ending Midsummer 1877. It is not what is technically called a balance sheet. It corresponds more nearly to the revenue account required to be kept by railway companies and sucli like corporations. III. — As regards the conjectures made by the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission as to prospective increase of the income of the college, their adequate examination would unduly lengthen this communication. Confining these remarks to the estimated increase of the income of the college from the falling in of beneficial leases for terms of years, I observe on page 70, Vol. I. of the Report, that this is set down at 2G5Z. about to accrue between the issuing of the Report and December 31st, 1880. By referring to Returns (A. 1) and (A. 3) I am able to infer with some probability that this estimate is due to the consideration of the case of three estates and one house, the leases on which it was suppo.sed would expire in 1876, 1877, 1879, and 1878 respectively. The amount received as reserved rent was deducted in three cases from the gross value for i-ental derivable from the poor rate return, and in the fourth from an estimated annual value ; the differences if added together make 262Z. 13s. 4d., which I suppose to be what is meant by “ about 265/.” Two of the properties have come into hand. Of one the Copyhold Commissiones have authorised the sale by auction, and this will take place next month. The other supplies means for estimating roughly the value to be set upon these conjectures as to prospective increase. The gross value for rental of this estate was 177/. The corn rent about 13/. The Report ac- cordingly, it would seem, estimates a prospective inci’ease under this head of 164/. As a fact, the estate is let for 14 years at a rent of 197/. from which tlie land tax, 9/. 19s. 4r/., must be deducted. In satisfying the claims of the members of the foundation on fines receivable for renewal, in rebuilding the homestead, and other repairs and improvements on the estate, a sum of 2,400/. has been alread^y expended, and probably 200/. more will be required. This expenditure diminishes the net receipts to be estimated on account of this property for the next 30 years by an annual sum equivalent to 6 per cent, on the outlay. The net receipts, therefore (even if we neglect further occasional repairs, insurance, suhscriptions, &c.), will during that period be in round numbers — £ £ £ 187 — 156 = 31 which diminishes the increase of revenue under this head to 18/., or rather less than one ninth of the Commissioners’ estimate. It is true that at the bottom of page 32 of Vol. I. of their Report, the Commissioners anticipate that deductions of this kind will be necessary, and state that in their estimates they have not taken E 3 88 account of them. By not taking such account they have deprived their estimates of even the approximate correctness which they seem to claim for them. I am, &c. (Signed) J. R. Magrath, The Secretaiy, Pj»q Provost. Oxford University Commission. Queen’s Colleue, Oxford. k-suMMAKY of Receirts aiul EXPENDITURE foi' the year 1876-7. £ S (1. £ s. d Receipts from estates - - - . 13,830 18 loi Fettiplace benefactions 109 6 1C Fines 567 4 3 God’s House, Southampton 285 13 0 Profits on buttery - - £98 2 3 Priory Church, Pamber 14 6 7 Less loss on kitchen - - 14 19 9 Sedleian professor 270 0 0 83 9 6 Michel fellow - - - 160 0 0 College rooms - . - - 585 18 10 Scholarships, &c. - 2,081 16 11 Dividends on stock - . . . 266 1 0 Chapel 421 19 8 Miscellaneous receipts - 24 9 2 Library (exclusive of suspended fellowship) - 202 6 S From suppressed fellowship towards auameuta- Land and income taxes 372 18 6 tion of scholarships, &c. - - _ 226 10 0 Interest on loans for buildings, drainage, &c. - 562 18 0 Hastings contribution to bursar’s salary 30 0 0 Rstes and tithe rentcharges 137 16 9 Subscriptions and donations 161 10 0 External repairs 918 19 2 Capital expenditure - 2,359 2 9 Management . - - 896 15 3 Entertainments 315 8 0 Insurance fund 100 0 0 Miscellaneous expenses 442 11 2 . Divisible balance - 5,800 8 4 £1, '1,6 13 17 ‘ 2 £15,613 17 7 Examined and approved, errors excepted, (Signed) E. Armstrong ) . ... September 25tl., 1877. E. B. Elliot j Auditors. Queen’s College, Oxford, My dear Sir, 28rd January 1878. As I understand it is not the wish of the Commissioners that the colleg:e officers should ao through the labour necessary to verify and correct tlie figures of the abstracts contained in the first volume of the Report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, I hasten to supply what I trust may he sufficient information for the Oxford University Commissioners. I . — As to the property of the College on July Isi, 1877. Without vouching for the correctness of the totals contained in the Report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, pp. 68, 69, I propose to inform the Commissioners of the changes that have taken place in the property since 1871. (1.) Lands and cottages have been purchased by the college at Monk Sherborne, Earley, Garsing- ton. Toot Baldon, and Horton Kirby at a total cost of 5^413^., increasing the acreage of the college by about 98 acres. (2.) Lands and houses at Newport (Isle of Wight), Southampton, Plumstead, and Cliddesden have been sold for 3,070(., diminishing the acreage of the college by about 4 acres. (8.) The tithes of Wendron have been sold for 2,000?. (4.) The advowsons of St. Michael’s, Wendron, and of English Bicknorhave been sold respectively for 1,350?. and 2,500?. (5.) My letter of October 30, 1877, will have informed the Commissioners of the improvement that has taken place in the revenues of the college from running out beneficial leases. These represent, so far as I am aware, the whole che changes in the property of the college up to the end of the last financial year, so far as the corporate income of the college is concerned. The capital of the trust funds of the college has been increased from time to time by the invest- ment of the legal proportion of the net revenue from minerals and the balances accruing from vacancies. Should the Commissioners desire details, I shall be glad to supply them. II . — Income of the College in the year 1876-7. The enclosed statement (A.) contains a summary of the income of the college for the year 1876-7. The external income is stated gross as (it is supposed) in the Duke of Cleveland’s Report, p. 69. The internal income is stated nett, as the way in which the junior bursar’s accounts are for con- venience kept would render an amount of labour necessary in order to ascertain its gross amount, which I understand the Commissioners do not wish the college officers to undertake. Wages paid to the servants by resident members through tlie junior bursar, and fees paid to the tutors and dean either directly or through the same instrumentality, have never been brought by the college into the annual summary of income and expenditure, and it is believed that information on these 31 ) heads is not required by the Commission. Should it be otherwise, the several officers will be desired to afford the necessary information. It will not, I trust, be inferr-ed from this return (A.) that the ordinary college income has increased since 1871 to anything like the extent which might be supposed from a comparison with the figures put out by the Duke of Cleveland’s Cornmi.ssioii. The college possesses some hundred of acres of woodland, from which the receipts are from the nature of the case irregular. The receipts from timber have been heretofore appropriated to improvements and capital expenditure on the college property. If the necessary charges for land and property tax, rates, subscription^, repairs, improvements, allowances to tenants, management, &c., are deducted, the amount of external income is reduced to 9,879^. 18.s. OJd Mistakes would, however, have probably arisen in estimating the relations between the college income and expenditure if this sum had been substituted in the tabular statement for that which stands there. III . — Expenditure of the College, 1876-7. The enclosed statement (B.) contains a summary of the expenditure of the college for the year 187G-7. The items' are arranged as far as possible under the heads employed by the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission. It is probable, however, that the heads, though nominally the same, do not in all cases represent virtually the same items of expenditure. I have found it necessary to supplement these heads by some additional ones which I have characterised by the letters of the alphabet. The difference observable between the totals of income and expenditure is due to the following circumstances : — (1.) The claims of the members of the foundation on the divisible balaiice consist parti}'' of claims on fines not actually received but provided for out of suspended fellowships or otherwise. (2.) The payments to the scholars, &c. are partly made up out of a fund derived from a suppressed fellowship. In both of these cases the relation between the amounts set aside in each year and those actually expended on these purposes varies from year to year. I am sorry that tlic desire of the Commissioners that the financial condition of the college should be stated as f'” as may be in the form of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission has rendered these explanabions necessaiy. I am, &c. (Signed) J. R. Magrath, Pro Provost. A. 1. External : Lands _ _ . Houses - - _ Tithe rentcharges Other rentcharges Other properties Dividends on stock - Fines Miscellaneous receipts 2. Internal : Profits of buttery and kitchen Room rents - - - The Income of the College in the year 1876-7, -J B. 1. ' The provost (exclusive of lodgings and chamber rents) 2. The fellows (there are now no allowances except rooms rent tree to residents) 14, 11/52 ------ 3^584 0 7 „ Fellow on Old Michel foundation (.salary and allowance for rooms) - 160 0 0 3. The scholars, Eglesfield exhibitioners, and Bible clerks - - 1,689 0 0 „ Non-foundation exhibitions - - - - - 96 10 0 4. Allowances to resident members on the foundation, rooms rent free — 5. University professors ------ 270 0 0 6. Tutorial fund and other in.struction (exclusive of fees) - - 49 0 0 7. Examiners and prizes - - - - - -11260 „ Expenses of examinations - - - - - - 1810 11 8. The college officers (bursars, bursar’s secretary, auditors, and dean exclusive of fees and contribution of Hastincf’s foundation to bursar s salary) - - - - - 404 () p s. d. TNett - 9,379 18 Gross 13,830 18 Oh - 266 1 10 - 32 4 3 - 24 2 2 - Nett 83 2 6 585 18 10 ,£'14,822 7 7h 1876-7. £ s. d. e s. d. ■ 1,008 15 4 J-: 4 40 9. The college servants (whatever is received in battels) 10. The cliaj:)el and clia,pel services - - _ . . 1 1. The library (ordinary) exclusive of fees - - . _ „ The library (extraordinary), for new catalogue, &c. 12. Subscriptions, donations, &c. - - . _ _ 13. INIaintenance of establishment in college (deducted from prolits before the balance of profits is struck) - - - _ 14. Repairs, improvement, and insurance on college buildings (deducted from room rents before balance is struck) . _ . 15. Rates, taxes, &c., on college buildings (paid by resident members in battels) 16. Augmentation of benefices - _ _ _ . 17. Interest on loans and repayments - - . _ _ £ s. d. 421 19 8 202 6 8 252 3 10 161 10 0 562 18 0 18. Management of estates and law charges 19. Repairs on estates _ . _ _ . *A. Set aside towards improvements, &c. i'R. Ditto (emoluments of vacant fellowships, scholarships, &c.) 20. Rates, taxes, insurance, quitrents C. Miscellaneous expenses - - _ , . D. Fettiplace benefiictions - _ _ . . E. God’s House Hospital, Southampton F. Priory Church, Pamber - - - - . G. Entertainments, &c. . _ . _ . - 650 14 7 918 19 2 - 2,359 2 9 - 307 19 11 - 638 17 5 230 9 8 109 6 10 - 285 13 0 14 6 7 - 315 8 0 £ 8,943 s. d. 1 0 5,830 17 11 £14,773 18 11 Queen’s College, Oxford, My dear Sir, March 8, 1878. I HAVE to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 5th instant, in which you ask for an estimate of the increase which may be expected in the income of the college between the present date and the end of the year 1898. I have laid the letter before the college, and am instructed to reply _ Among the classes of circumstances which may be expected to affect advantageously or adversely the income of the college ai-e the following: — (1.) The falling in of beneficial leases for a term of years (on which see my letter of 30th October 1877). (2.) The falling in of beneficial leases for lives. (3.) The falling in of copyholds for lives. (4.) The fluctuation in the value of agricultural lands. (5.) The sale or lease for building purposes of suitable land, now let agriculturally. (6.) The compulsory sale to railways or other undertakings under Acts of Parliament. (7.) The cesser of charges on the college revenues. (8.) Outlay on buildings, and other capital improvements necessitating loans or the setting aside of a poi'tion of the college revenues. (9.) The expiring of leases held by the college under other landlords. (10.) The purchase or sale of land or other properties under the sanction of the Copyhold Com- missioners. Under the seventh head it may be mentioned that a charge of about 52^. per annum on the college revenues will cease to be payable in 1896 ; and under the ninth, that a leasehold, the net value of which to the college is about 33?. per annum, expires in 1887. With these exceptions the whole of the circumstances above mentioned as calculated to affect the future income of the college are so uncertain that the college is unable to form any adequate estimate of their probable effect upon the income of the college between the present time and the year 1898. I return the proof forwarded to me with corrections for the press. I am, &c. The Secretary, (Signed) J. R. Magrath, Oxford University Commission. Pro Provost. * A. This sum is voluntarily set aside out of divisible income by the college. I B. This sum is .set aside for the same purposes as A., in accordance with Clause 52 of the Ordinance passed by the University Commission of 1854. 41 VIII. RETURN EROM NEW COLLEGE. New College, Oxford, SlK, 22nd October 1877. In reply to your communication of the 1 8th October, I beg leave to forward a balance sheet of the income and expenditure of New College for the last year, together with a letter of the bursar respecting it, and the other points upon wliich the Commissioners desire information. I may add that the bursar will be glad to give any explanation or further information as the Commissioners may desire. I am, &c. (Signed) J. E. Sewell, T. F. Dallin, Esq. Warden. Letter from the Senior Bursar of New College, to the Warden. New College, Lear Mr. Warden, 20th October 1877. I have received the letter No. 4 addressed to you by the Secretary to the University Commission, and I now send you a copy of the last annual summary of the income and expen- diture of the college. I am afraid that it will not be as useful to the Commissioners as I could wish owing to the fact that in the time to which it relates a change Avas made in the accounts, so that they are novr closed at Christmas instead of Michaelmas. I shall be glad to give any explanation or to prepare any further information that may be required. The statement of revenue contained in the report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission is based upon returns which were sent in some time before I became bursar, and there may be some diffi- culty in verifying it now. I believe that some corrections ought to be made, but probably they will not be very imj)ortant. The statements as to the prospective increase of income require considerable corrections, and ought, I think, to be supplemented by some estimate of prospective decrease of income, e.g., in re- spect to lo.ss of fines ; and also by a statement of charges on account of loans, or on account of repairs and improvements on the property of the college. The corrections of various kinds which the returns require shall be made, and supplementary tables prepared as soon as possible. Biit I am afraid they cannot be ready in time for the ap- proaching meeting of the Commissioners. (Signed) Alfred Robinson. New College, Oxford. Summary of Income and Expenditure from Michaelmas 1875 to Christmas 1870. Oxford quitrent.s Reserved and corn rents Loans in lieu of fines on re- newals of leases Rackrents . _ . Tithe rentcharge Timber . . . Manors (quitrents) Manors (fines and heriots) Pensions and rentcharges Dividends on stock *College dues - - - Miscellaneous Balance from last account :E s. d. £ s. d. 9 4 8 1,303 3 0 1,671 0 0 16,353 1 9 6,753 11 5 438 13 0 104 13 3 876 19 9 89 18 5 1,173 1 11 1,401 11 1 781 18 7 30,956 16 10 - - 5,798 7 8 £36,755 4 6 *Rates, taxes, &c. Tradesmen’s bills Management and business *Servants’ wages *Chapel establishment - *Fuel, lighting, and water Interest and annuities - *Domus expenses Donations, subscriptions, &c. - Savilian professors Insurances, buildings on estates ^Officers’ stipends *The warden - . The fellows - - . *The scholars - 40 extra dividends for the year 1875 at 90/. each Balance in hand - & s. d. £ s. d. 654 7 0 1,984 11 2 1,035 2 11 1,828 11 1 2,601 4 2 733 17 9 3,366 13 3 496 16 3 1,769 16 1 593 15 0 198 18 11 1,744 8 1 2,125 0 0 8,941 1 2 4,000 0 0 32,074 2 10 - 3,600 0 0 35,674 2 10 1,081 1 8 £36,755 4 6 Note. — The foregoing summary of the accounts as audited includes a period of 15 mouths. An approximate summary of income and expenditure for a year can be obtained by deducting one fifth from each of the items to which an asterisk is prefixed. Q 6223. F New College, Oxford, Dear Sir, 22nd December 1877. In reply to your letter to the warden of the 24th ultimo, I have the honour to send you : — I. An abstract of the income and expenditure of the college for the year 1876. II. A table showing a])proximately in what manner the revenues of the college will be aftected by the falling in of beneficial leases. III. A table showing approximately in what manner the revenues of the college will be affected by the falling in of copyhold property. Should these papers be printed for the use of the Commissioners, it will be a convenience to the college if you can supply me with some copies. I shall be glad to aive any further information that may be required. I have, &c. (Signed) Alfred Robinson, T. F. Dallin, E.s(p Bursar. Income of the College for the Year 1876. £ d. Lands and house property (including proceeds of sale of timber) - 21,412 18 9 Tithe rentchaiges - - - - - 8,598 5 5 Other rentchaiges, &c - - 93 8 11 Stocks, shares, &c. - - - - - - 1,173 1 11 Other properties and sundries - 470 19 4 Loans raised in lieu of fines - - - - 1,671 0 0 Income received by the warden - 512 0 0 33,661 14 4 Income received from internal sources - 1,349 15 8 Total corporate income - - ^35,011 10 0 Notes. 1. The figures in this statement are only approximate. The audited accounts of the college include a period of 15 months from Michaelmas 1875 to Christmas 1876. 2. Tithe rentcharge to the amount of 7ll. I8s. Sd. has now been annexed to the vicarage of Colerne. This sum, therefoie, should be deducted in future estimates of the separate income re- ceived by the warden. Expenditure of the College for the Year 1876. 1. The warden (including his separate income) - 2 . The fellowships (40), see note 2 below 3. The scholars and exhibitioners _ . - - 4. Allowance to resident members on the foundation 5. University professors _ . . - - G. Tutorial fund and other instruction - - - - 7. Examiners and prizes 8. The college officers, sub- warden, bursars, &c. - - - 9. The college servants ------ 10. The chapel and chapel services - . . . 11. The library ------- 12. Subscriptions, donations, &c. - - - - - 13. Maintenance of establishment in college . - - 14. Repairs and improvements on college buildings 15. Rates, taxes, insurances, &c., on college buildings 16. Yicars and augmentation of benefices 17. Interest on fine loans and annuities - - 1 8. Management of estates, and law charges . . - 19. Repairs and improvements on estates, and Building Repair Improvement Fund _ - . - - 20. Rates, taxes, insurances, &c., on estates £ s. d. 2,220 0 0 9,742 8 0 3,000 0 0 285 8 5 593 15 0 495 16 8 134 17 11 817 1 5 1,262 17 10 2,080 19 4 120 2 7 1,493 14 0 2,533 0 6 488 7 0 3,167 3 4 3,130 14 3 906 3 0 2,459 0 2 138 18 11 £35,062 8 4 Notes. 1. The figures in this statement are only approximate. The audited accounts of the college inelude a pei’iod of 15 months, from Michaelmas 1875 to Christmas 1876. 2. The value of the fellowships in this year varied from about 230Z. to 250Z. 10 of the 40 fellowships have been suppressed, and their emoluments are carried to a separate fund which pro- vides for the maintenance of the open scholarships and lor expenses arising from loans raised for 'he recent extension of the college buildings. 3. The number of undergraduates in the year 1876 was about 130. 43 Table showing approximately in what manner the Revenues of New College will be affected by the falling in of Beneficial Leases. Each year in this Table is compared with the Year 1877. Gain. Loss. Nett. Additional Rental from Property which has been let on Beneficial Leases. Diminution of Charges incurred through the Process of runninp; out Beneficial Leases. Total. Additional Cost of Repairs and Management. Loss of Corn Rents. Loss of Pines or of Pino Loans in respect of Beneficial Leases. Increase of Charges incurred through the Process of running out Beneficial Leases. Total. Gain. Loss. & s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. & s. d. £ .V. d. £ s. d. s. d. £ s. d. £ 5. d. £ s. d. 1878 24 0 0 15 10 0 39 10 0 24 0 0 12 18 7 2,200 0 0 — 2,236 18 7 2,197 8 7 1879 1,163 0 0 — 1,163 0 0 1,163 0 0 270 5 11 1,875 0 0 28 10 0 3,336 15 11 2,173 15 11 1880 1,723 0 0 125 10 0 1,848 10 0 1,723 0 0 378 6 3 2,200 0 0 — 4,301 6 3 2,452 16 3 1881 3,531 0 0 119 0 0 3,6.50 0 0 3,511 0 0 667 14 8 2,200 0 0 6,378 14 8 2,728 14 8 1882 5,397 0 0 119 0 0 5,516 0 0 4,352 0 0 926 5 0 2,200 0 0 — 7,478 5 0 1,962 5 0 1883 6,154 0 0 119 0 0 6,273 0 0 4,60.5 0 0 1,074 5 10 2,200 0 0 7,879 5 10 1,606 5 10 1884 6,893 0 0 846 0 0 7,739 0 0 3,717 0 0 1,332 10 3 2,200 0 0 — 7,249 10 3 489 9 9 1885 6,893 0 0 589 0 0 7,482 0 0 2,048 0 0 1 ,3.32 10 3 2,200 0 0 — 5,580 10 3 1,901 9 9 1880 6,893 0 0 65 0 0 6,958 0 0 1,367 0 0 1,332 10 3 2,200 0 0 — 4,899 10 3 2,058 9 9 1887 9,138 0 0 — 9,138 0 0 2,947 0 0 1 ,342 7 9 2,200 0 0 321 0 0 6,810 7 9 2,037 12 3 1888 9,138 0 0 — 9,138 0 0 2,947 0 0 1,342 7 9 2,200 0 0 921 0 0 7,410 7 9 1,727 12 3 1889 9,208 0 0 — 9,208 0 0 3,017 0 0 1,343 9 5 2,200 0 0 1,635 0 0 8,195 9 5 1,012 10 7 ■ 1890 9,229 0 0 — 9,229 0 0 1,130 0 0 1 ,343 9 5 2,200 0 0 1,684 5 0 6,357 14 5 2,871 5 7 1891 9,229 0 0 — 9,229 0 0 1,130 0 0 1,343 9 5 2,200 0 0 1,788 5 0 6,461 14 5 2,767 5 7 1892 9,366 0 0 — 9,366 0 0 1,207 0 0 1,346 15 5 2.200 0 0 1 ,639 5 0 6,393 0 5 2,972 19 7 1893 9,366 0 0 — 9,366 0 0 1,189 0 0 1,346 15 5 2,200 0 0 1,394 9 0 6,130 4 5 3,235 15 7 ■ 1894 9,366 0 0 — 9,366 0 0 1,189 0 0 1,346 15 5 2,200 0 0 1,254 9 0 5,990 4 5 3,375 15 7 1 895 9,366 0 0 — 9,366 0 0 1,073 ■ 0 0 1,346 15 5 2,200 0 0 1,507 9 0 6,127 4 5 3,238 15 7 1896 9,366 0 0 — 9,366 0 0 1,073 0 0 1,346 15 5 2,200 0 0 1,392 9 0 6,012 4 5 3,353 15 7 1897 9,466 0 0 — 9,466 0 0 1,173 0 0 1,364 5 5 2,200 0 0 1,156 9 0 5,893 14 5 3,572 5 7 1898 9,466 0 0 — 9,466 0 0 1,173 0 0 1,364 5 5 2,200 0 0 943 9 0 5,680 14 5 3,785 5 7 1899 10,416 0 0 — 10,416 0 0 2,123 0 0 1,373 2 8 2,200 0 0 502 9 0 6,198 U 8 4,217 8 4 1900 10,416 0 0 31 11 0 10,447 11 0 2,038 0 0 1,373 2 8 2,200 0 0 — 5,611 2 8 4,836 8 4 1901 10,416 0 0 984 11 0 11,400 11 0 2,038 0 0 1,373 2 8 2,200 0 0 — .5,611 2 8 5,789 8 4 1902 10,416 0 0 2,023 11 0 12,439 11 0 1,230 0 0 1,373 2 8 2,200 0 0 — 4,803 2 8 7,636 8 4 1903 10,416 0 0 2,509 11 0 12,92.5 11 0 1,230 0 0 1,.373 2 8 2,200 0 0 — 4,803 2 8 8,122 8 4 1904 10,416 0 0 2,868 11 0 13,284 11 0 1,230 0 0 1 ,373 2 8 2,200 0 0 — 4,803 9 8 8,481 8 4 1905 10,416 0 0 3,059 11 0 13,475 11 0 1,230 0 0 1,373 2 8 2,200 0 0 — 4,803 2 8 8,672 8 4 1906 10,416 0 0 3,059 11 0 13.475 11 0 1,230 0 0 1 1,373 2 8 2,200 0 0 — 4.803 2 8 8,672 8 4 1907 10,416 0 0 .3,088 11 0 13,504 11 0 1,230 0 0 I 1,373 2 8 2,200 0 0 — 4,803 2 8 8,701 8 4 1908 10,416 0 0 3,118 11 0 13,534 11 0 1,230 0 0 1 1,373 1 2 8 2,200 0 0 — 4,803 2 8 8,731 8 4 — For 1909 and the following years repeat the figures entered for the year 1908. Notes. 1. Additional rental (column 1). — It is assumed that the farms and houses will be let in aecordance with the latest valuations in the possession of the eollcije. A deduction has been made for fixed charges such as land tax or tithe. 2. The charges in respect to the process of running out beneficial leases (columns 2 and 7) consist for the most part of pay- ments on account of loans raised in lieu of fines. The whole amount of these loans is estimated at 48,54.51. Of this sum 48 220/ has already been raised. Interest on these loans is paid at the rate of four per cent, per annum, and the loans are paid off throuo-h a sinking hind which is formed by the annual investment of a sum equal to one seventh part of the loan, such investments com- mencing with the 21st year from the date of the loan. The sum payable in the vear 1877 in respect to these charges is 3,118/. 1 Is. “ ‘ B - 3. Repairs and Management— The figures in this column (4), assume that when the property first comes into hand, expenditure upon new buildings, &c., will be required to the amount of three years’ rental, and that after the first three years 10 per cent, upon the rental in the case of farms, and 15 per cent, in the case of houses will be a sufficient allowance for such expenses. ^ 4. Fine loans . — It is assumed that no fine loan will be raised after the year 1879. Table showing approximtitely in what manner the Revenues of New College will be affected by the falling in of Copyhold Propeety. Gain. Loss. Nett, Additional Rental. Additional Cost of Repairs. Loss of Quit- rents. Total. Gain. Loss. £ s. d. £ d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ 5. d. £ s. d. 1888 441 0 0 441 0 0 5 7 0 446 7 0 5 7 0 1889 441 0 0 441 0 0 5 7 0 446 7 0 5 7 0 1890 441 0 0 441 0 0 5 7 0 446 7 0 5 7 0 1891 441 0 0 45 0 0 5 7 0 50 7 0 390 13 0 1892 441 0 0 45 0 0 5 7 0 50 7 0 390 13 0 — 1893 1,169 0 • 0 773 0 0 14 4 0 787 4 0 381 16 0 1894 1,169 0 0 773 0 0 14 4 0 787 4 0 381 16 0 1895 1,169 0 0 773 0 0 14 4 0 787 4 0 381 16 0 1896 1,169 0 0 117 0 0 14 4 0 131 4 0 1,037 16 0 1897 1,169 0 0 117 0 0 14 4 0 131 4 0 1,037 16 0 1898 1,169 0 0 117 0 0 14 4 0 131 4 0 1,037 16 0 1899 1,169. 0 0 117 0 0 14 4 0 131 4 0 1,037 16 0 1900 1,169 0 0 117 0 0 14 4 0 131 4 0 1,037 16 0 1901 2,506 0 0 1,454 0 0 30 15 0 1,484 15 0 1,021 5 0 — F 2 44 Revenues of New College from Copyhold Property. — Contimied. — Gain. Loss. 1 Xett. i ArUbtional Rental. Adiitiinial Cost Repairs. Loss ot Q.uit- rents. Total. Gain. 1 Los.s. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. (/. £ s. (/. £ s. d. 1902 2,506 0 0 1,454 0 0 30 15 0 1,484 15 0 1,021 5 0 — 1903 2,506 0 0 1,454 0 0 30 15 0 1,484 15 0 1,021 5 0 — 1904 2,506 0 0 251 0 0 30 15 0 281 15 0 2,224 5 0 — 1905 2,506 0 0 251 0 0 30 15 0 281 15 0 2,224 5 0 — 1906 2,506 0 0 251 0 0 30 15 0 281 15 0 2,224 5 0 — 1907 2,.506 0 0 251 0 0 30 15 0 281 15 0 2,224 5 0 — 1908 2,506 0 0 251 0 0 30 15 0 281 15 0 2,224 5 0 1909 2,506 0 0 251 0 0 30 15 0 281 15 0 2,224 5 0 — 1910 2,506 0 0 251 0 0 30 15 0 281 15 0 2,224 5 0 — 1911 3,729 0 0 1,474 0 0 45 3 0 1,519 3 0 2,209 17 0 — 1912 3,729 0 0 1,474 0 0 45 3 0 1,519 3 0 2,209 17 0 — 1913 .3,729 0 0 1,474 0 0 45 3 0 1,519 3 0 2,209 17 0 — 1914 3,729 0 0 373 0 0 45 3 0 418 3 0 3,310 17 0 — /Votes. 1. In this table it is assumed that at the end of 10 years from the present time the college will have come into possession of so much of its copyhold property as is held upon lives, the youngest of which has now an expectation of less than 10 years. Similiarly with lives of which the expectation is less than 15 years, 25 years, and 35 years respectively. 2. It is also assumed that the copyhold property will be let at the gross estimated rental given in the rate book. 3. It is further assumed that when the property first comes into hand, expenditure upon new buildings, &c., will be required to the amount of three years’ rental, and that after the first three years 10 per cent, upon the rental will be a sufficient allowance for such expenses. The whole amount of the copyhold property held upon lives is estimated at 4,360/. gross, and 3,924/. nett. Part of the copyhold property will not come into hand until after the year 1915. IX. IlETURN FROM LINCOLN COLLEGE. Sir, Lincoln College, 26th October 1877. I HAVE the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your communication dated 18th October and numbered 4. I beg to say in reply that I believe that the returns of revenue and sources of revenue contained in the report of the Commission presided over by the Duke of Cleveland are accurate and may be relied on as .sufficient at the pre.sent time. I cannot, however, guarantee the correctness of the statements or inferences from these figures made in the report of the same Commission. The form of our accounts does not show the various funds brought into one balance sheet ; but our books are open at all times to the inspection of the Commissioners. I am, &c. (Signed) Mark Patteson, T. F. Dallin, Esq. Rector. Dear Sir, Lincoln College, 20th December 1877. I BEG to send a statement of the financial condition of this college at the present time, as the best answer to the request of the University Commission addressed to the rector. I shall be glad to give any explanation of any part of the statement that may be required. Yours, &c. (Signed) W. West, The Rev. T. Vcre Bayne Bursar. Lincoln College, 18th December 1877. In the year 1876-7 the gross income (after deducting property tax) from rents, tithes, dividends, &c., is 6,268(. 12s. 9d. From this is deducted 1,246(. 18s. IcZ. : viz., 220Z. 14s. 6ti. for repayment of loans in the general loam account, and the remainder for Domus. The net amount divisible among Rector and Fellows is 5,021Z., which gives to each about 860Z., the Rector counting for two. The non-resident Fellows have besides a sum of 521., (121. each) from rent of their rooms. Each Fellow has besides lOZ., Lord Crewe’s benefaction, and some small allowances which average 8/. or 91. The income which Domus has from the rents of estates is 140Z. veteres reditus, and 1.5 per cent, on the rents after certain deductions are made. 45 The income of Domus as stated in this year’s calculus (including Lord Crewe’s benefaction to rector, fellows, and chaplains, and the above stated (5,021^.) arising from rents, room rents, degree and admission fees, and payments by members of the college for college expenses will be about 7)630^. It will be probably in the following figures in the calculus: — Receptiones — X> s. d. Receptiones pro ecclesiis - - - 5 12 0 Veteres reditus - - - 150 0 0 Speciales reditus - - - 206 0 0 Reditus cubiculorum - - - - 40.9 0 0 Casuales receptiones - - - - 192 13 4 Receptiones intra Coll. - - - 756 8 „ extra Coll. - - - - 5,907 18 1^- The casuales receptiones may be considerably more ; whatever that item may be is altogether exceptional for this year. N.B. — In this return I make no reference to Twyford, except that 10^. in the veteres reditus is paid to Domus by the rector out of Twyford Rectory. (Signed) W. West, Bursar. The expenditure for 1876-7, as at present ascertained, is about 7,473L, but some heavy bills for repairs on estates not yet quite completed, which will amount to 200/. at least, cannot be charged in the calculus for this year. The expenditure will probably be in these figures : — £ s. d. 1. Summa communiarum - 28 17 0 2. Summa Domus _ - - - 48 10 10 3. Solutiones communiter servientibus - - 293 7 0 4. Pro focalibus . - - - 40 18 10 5. Solutiones extra Coll. - 7 9 3 6. Solutiones intra Coll. - - 5,694 6 0 7. Necessaria intrinseca - - 772 6 9 8. Necessaria extrinseca - 588 0 0 Explanations : — 1. Allowance to rector and fellows for residence. 2. Cost of dinners to tenants, Domus days, (fee. 3. Salaries of principal servants. 4. Fires in hall, bursary, > 99 9) yy y) yy >y yy yy 5? yy yy yy . - about £ 908 1880 yy 3,179 1885 yy 8,854 1890 yy 6,521 1895 yy 3,425 1900 yy 1,253 These several sums are cumulative. Statement of the College as to probable increase of income from the falling in of the Beneficial Leases on which the lands in A. 1, and the Houses in A. 3, arelet : £ On or before 31st December 1875 - . . During the five years ending 31st December 1880 about - - 1,425 ” » » „ 1885 - - 3,422 ” » » » 1890 - - 5,137 » » » „ 1895 - - 2,570 ” » » » 1900 - - 1,013 These several sums are cumulative. (Signed) Frederick Bulley, President. a 2 52 Probable Increase of Income from the Swaby Estate, which falls into the College on the Gtii December 1877. Acreage 643a. Ir. 38p. £ s. d. Annual rental - . . . . Received under the old system of beneficial leases. Reserved rents - - - 135 0 0 One seventh of fine - - -15500 £ s. d. 1,100 0 0 290 0 0 Deductions on the same estate coming into rackrent.'^ Interest on fine (*) loan payable up to the year 1902 Sinking fund on fine loan debt and accumulated interest amounting to 1,400L to be paid off in 1902 Building Account. Interest on mortgage loan of 2,0507 - Sinking fund to pay off the said mortgage in 30 years from the date of borrowing Land tax - _ - - Ordinary outgoings — income tax, &c. 44 10 0 40 0 0 82 0 0 41 0 0 12 0 0 30 10 0 540 0 0 Pi-obable present increase 560 0 0 Receipts. Expenditure. £ s. d. £ d. £ s. £ s. d. Rackrents - 15,242 2 2 The President - - . - _ 2,263 5 11 Deduct land tax, &c. - - 615 14 2 The fellows ; Old foundation 6,644 8 2 14,626 8 0 „ New „ 2,836 1 6 Beneficial leaseholds : — 9,480 » 9 8 Corn rents - 5,247 12 3 Demies - - - - - - 2,613 12 8 Old „ - 1,560 17 5 Exhibitioners ... - • 300 0 0 Commeats - 130 4 3 College officers - - - - - 569 7 9 Pro ovibus - 52 9 4 Professors . . - - 1,200 0 0 Pines - - - - 5,890 9 6 Contributions to tutorial fund - - - 691 16 6 12,881 12 9 Laboratory expenses - - 210 16 0 Copyholds : — Prizes, exhibitions, &c. - - - 604 8 11 Quitrents - 524 19 5 Servants ... - - 902 7 0 Perquisites of court 315 10 8 Allowances . . - - - 333 8 0 840 10 1 Maintenance - - - - - 828 16 1 Timber and underwood - - - - 790 0 10 Pensions . . . . - 324 6 0 Tithe account - - - 1,810 9 8 Subscriptions, donations, &c. - - 1,056 13 11 Interest on loans - - - 1,345 4 5 Rates and insurances - - 602 0 8 Fees - - - - - - 64 10 0 Repairs and improvements, &c. - - 3,890 5 5 Miscellaneous - - - 259 6 3 Law charges . . - - - 170 0 0 Consols and other investments — Management - . - - - 1,343 0 11 Divisible income - 1,836 15 8 Chapel; — Not divisable - - 1,140 9 10 Chaplains, clerks, organist, &c. 1624 6 10 2,977 5 6 Expenses and debt account - 469 0 7 Cautions - - - 1,030 0 0 Choristers, schoolmaster, &c. - 803 10 5 Battells - - - - - - 4,427 10 4 School expenses 337 9 5 Mortgage loan - - - - 5,069 0 0 3,234 7 3 Balance of funds of which the college are Library - - - - - - 209 0 3 trustees - - 67,810 12 8 Walks, grove, &c. - - 282 6 5 Livings - - - - - - 3,059 9 6 Amount of great indenture - - 113,932 10 6 Brackley and Wainfleet schools - - 603 2 1 Received from Wandsworth estate - - 2,669 10 9 Interest reserved - - 968 14 10 „ „ Demies estate - - - 60 0 0 Extinction of debt on beneficial leases - - 2,466 1 4 „ for extra prizes - - - 30 0 0 Do. copyholds - - 338 1 4 „ from room rent - - - 367 17 9 Miscellaneous - - - - - 1,658 15 9 Petty cash ... - - 30 15 1 Provisions . - - - - 3,574 19 9 Balance of funds of which the college are trustees - - - - - 73,249 10 0 £117,059 19 0 £117,059 19 0 (*) The first fine on this estate was borrowed from Internal sources and has been liquidated from professional surplus. 53 Sir, Magdalen College, Oxford, 1st December 1877. I HAVE the honour to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 28th ult., informing me < that the Commissioners of the University of Oxford would be glad to know the exact number of fellows among whom the dividend was made in 187G, and the value of the respective classes of fellowships in this society. I beg to enclose the accompanying papers which will, I think, give the Commissioners the fullest information on the above points, as well as upon other points connected therewith. I have, &c. (Signed) Frederic Bulley, The Secretary, President. University of Oxford Commission. N.B. — The professorial fund referred to in the accompanying papers was created under the ordinance of 1857, and is derived from the proceeds of suspended fellowships, and also from the difference between the limited fellowships and the dividends which would have been assigned to those fellowships if the ordinance of 1857 had not been made. By order of the college, May 17, 1866, and with the sanction of the visitor, the residue of this fund hereafter accruing (after the appropriation of the half of 2,5501. to the objects mentioned in Clause 6 of the ordinance) is to be applied to the improvement of the property of the college. £ s. d. £ s. d. Received during the year 1876 - 46,121 17 10 Balance of trust funds from 1875 67,810 12 8 Amount of great indenture - 113,932 10 6 Expenditure for 1876 - 23,870 11 6 Payments called Hogg’s Domus 371 18 8 Suspended fellowships 10 x 284^. 2,840 0 0 Outgoing fellows calculated on the Hogg of 18753 . . - - 573 16 6 Balance of trust funds, 1876 73,249 10 0 100,905 16 8 Dividend - £>13,026 13 10 Hogg for the year 1876 ; — £ s. d. The President - - . - - 8 12 10 £ 4 !. d. 1st class fellowship - 2 9 3 X 6 = 14 15 6 2nd „ „ - - - 2 5 6 X 6 = 13 13 0 3rd „ „ - 2 1 10 X 2 = 4 3 8 4th „ „ - - - 2 0 0 X 2 = 4 0 0 .5 th ,, „ - 1 18 1 X 4 = 7 12 4 6th „ „ - - - 1 16 3 X 6 = 10 17 6 Hogg - - - £63 14 10 The dividend 1.3,026Z. 13s. lOd., divided by the Hogg of the year, viz., 631. 14s. lOd, gives 204 Hoggs and a balance of 231. 7s. lOr/!., which is carried to a charitable fund called “ Bdla Placitorum.” Old System. Distribution of Dividend. £ s. d. £ s. £ s. d. The President - 8 12 10 X 204 1,762 18 0 1st class fellowship - 2 9 3 X 204 = 502 7 X 6 .3,014 2 0 2nd „ - 2 5 6 X 204 = 464 2 X 6 2,784 12 0 3rd „ 99 - 2 1 10 X 204 426 14 X 2 853 8 0 4th „ 99 - 2 0 Ox 204 = 408 0 X 2 816 0 0 5th „ 99 - 1 18 1 X 204 = 388 9 X 4 1,5.53 16 0 6th „ 99 - 1 16 3 X 204 = 369 15 X 6 2,218 10 0 Carried to Charitable fund - - 23 7 10 £13,026 13 10 54 Distribution of Dividend for 1876. Partly under the Old and partly under tlie New Systems. Jt/ s. d. The President - - - - . . 1^702 18 0 The Fellotvs on the Old Foundation : — 1st class fellowship £ - 502 s. 7 X £ 6 = .3,014 s. 2 2nd „ 55 - 464 2 X 6 = 2,784 12 3rd „ 55 - 426 14 X 1 = 426 14 The Fellows on the New Foundation : — £230 X 11 = Two suspended fellowships, carried to tuition fund £230 X 2 - Difference between the allotted fellowships and the amount a.ssigned under the oi'dinaiice, carried to pro- fessorial fund Carried to charitable fund - - - . 6,225 8 0 2,530 0 0 460 0 0 2,025 0 0 23 7 10 13,026 13 10 Professorial Fund for 1876. £ s. d. Ten suspended fellowships £248 x 10 = 2,840 0 0 Difference between the allotted fellowships and the amount assigned under the ordinance, 11 fellowships for the whole year ----- 1,745 10 0 Two fellowships for portion - . . . *151 0 9 Two suspended fellowships - - - - 279 10 0 Allowance under the old system to new fellows under the ordinance . . . - _ 19 13 4 Error in calculation ----- 0 12 0 £5,036 6 1 Distribution of above. £ s. d. Two pi’ofessors £600 x 2 = - 1,200 0 0 Ciirried to Demies and exhibitioners’ fund 1,275 0 0 Paid three probationer fellows - - - - 95 4 9 Carried to extinction of leaseiiold debt 2,466 1 4 £5,036 6 1 Return .showing Actual Amount paid on Account of the Presidentship for the year 1876. Particulars. Dividend. Other Payments. Total. Remarks. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. Presidentship - 1,762 18 0 500 7 11 2,263 5 11 Return showing Actual Amounts paid on Account of Fellowships held under the Old System for the year 1876.^ No. Class. Dividend. Other Payments. Total. Remarks. £ 5. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. 1 First 502 7 0 36 4 4 538 11 4 2 502 7 0 15 3 10 517 10 10 3 502 7 0 29 8 11 531 15 11 4 502 7 0 10 4 1 512 11 1 5 , 502 7 0 23 17 5 526 4 5 6 502 7 0 19 7 4 521 14 4 Died 17th .Tune 1877. 7 Second 464 2 0 15 16 2 479 18 2 8 464 2 0 7 7 4 471 9 4 9 464 2 0 14 14 4 478 16 4 10 464 2 0 8 9 0 472 11 0 11 464 2 0 11 12 10 475 14 10 12 464 2 0 32 14 3 496 16 3 13 Third 426 14 0 21 0 4 447 14 4 14 Outgoing fellow 169 11 0 3 9 0 173 0 0 Died 5th May 1876. £6,394 19 0 249 9 2 6,644 8 2 * Tbe outgoing fellowslilps, pi\)vi(l3i for before the dividend is arrived at. This amount, therefore, is in addition to the sum carried to the professorial fuul as shown in th> statement of the distribution of the dividend for 1876. t ■i 55 Return showing Actual Amount paid on Account of Fellowships held, under the New System for the year 1876. No. Dividend. Other Payments. Total. Remarks. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ 5 . d. 1 230 0 0 9 6 8 239 6 8 3 230 0 0 3 13 4 233 13 4 3 230 0 0 17 3 5 247 3 5 4 230 0 0 2 0 0 232 0 0 5 230 0 0 — 230 0 0 6 230 0 0 — 230 0 0 7 230 0 0 — 230 0 0 8 230 0 0 — 230 0 0 9 230 0 0 — 230 0 0 10 230 0 0 — 230 0 0 11 230 0 0 230 0 0 Suspended, carried to tuition fund. 12 230 0 0 — 230 0 0 Do. do. 13 230 0 0 — 230 0 0 14 52 8 3 52 8 3 Probationer, 31/. 14.s. IL/. paid from professorial surplus. 15 50 8 3 50 8 3 Do. do. suspended, carried to tuition found. 16 50 8 3 50 8 3 Do. do. do. do. 17 64 14 3 — 64 14 3 Outgoing fellow ; appointed to living by Archbishop of Canterbury. 18 188 10 6 — 188 10 6 Do. resigned. £3,243 4 9 185 8 2 3,428 12 11 ^ s, d, £ s, d. Total . . - . ' 3,428 12 11 Carried to tuition fund . - . . 506 16 6 Paid from professorial surplus - - - 31 14 11 592 11 5 £2,836 1 6 XII. RETURN EROM BRASENOSE COLLEGE. 1. The remarks, &c., on the returns contained in Vol. II. of the Report of the Universities Com- mission of 1872, received from this college, in reply to Query No. 1 of the Commissioners’ Circular Letter No. 4, have been entered in that volume. 2. A balance sheet has also been received from this college, but it has not been considered necessary to print it. 3. The reply to Question No. 3 is as follows : — Brasenose College. Prospective Increase of Income from running out Leases. After a careful calculation, I find that this college may reckon on receiving by the end of the present century, supposing that no beneficial leases be renewed in future nor any property now let on beneficial leases be sold except on the expiration of such leases, and increase of income from this source amounting to 8,004il. 10s. beyond its ordinary corporate income, an expression which I will explain below. By adding to this sum 246/., which might have been received for land at Gloucester and Derby sold since the appearance of the returns, a total of 8,250/. is made up. This is considerably (about 1,000/.) below the total given by the Royal Commissioners. My estimate does not include the increase which may be expected about 1881 from the expira- tion of lease of the Tates Court property, see A. 14, but of this I can form no calculation. I wish now to point out some facts which are not apparently taken into consideratioipby the Royal Commissioners : — 1. Thej'^ do not make any allowance for the loss of fines which tlie college must forego in order to secure the increase in question. In the case of this college the fines taken averaged 1,705/. 5s. 8(/. for the years 1867-71. 2. Supposing that the fines be replaced by money borrowed, still the report takes no account of the interest to be paid oh such loans, nor of the provision to be made for repayment of the principal. 3. It is, I believe, often found that on the expiration of beneficial leases an expenditure of at least two years’ rackrent is necessary to put the property in proper order. This, of course, should be taken into account in calculating the time at which the college will enjoy the full benefit of the improved rental. G 4 56 4. This College has in several instances sold the reversions of leasehold property when the leases have come within a few years of expiration, under the Universities and College Estates Act, 1858. It is not unlikely that similar sales may take place in future, in which case of course any estimate of increase made on the supposition that all leases will be allowed to run out their full time must be fallacious. 5. Various leases have been renewed since the returns were made out, which of course will delay the period at which the college will receive the full rackrent. The income of which a future increase is under consideration, should clearly be the ordinary corporate income of the college, irrespectively of fines and fine loans, and also of other items which belong more properly to a capital account. The average ordinary corporate income of the college for the years 1873-6 has been : — — 1873. 1874. 1875. 1876. From external sources From internal sources 4) £ s. d. 7,444 16 9 3,985 13 3 £ s. d. 7,267 0 0 4,072 19 9 £ s d, 7,391 0 5 4,049 6 2 £ s. d. 8,398 18 0 4,229 12 1 £11,430 10 0 11,339 19 9 11,440 6 7 12,628 10 1 11,339 19 9 11,440 6 7 12,628 10 1 46,839 6 5 £11,709 16 7 for trees cut down. - ” - £1,736 2 7 517 10 5 245 0 0 Loans to replace fines were raised on mortgage at 4 per cent, in 1874 for _ _ _ . (575 0 0 1875 „ ... - 1,185 0 0 1876 „ .... 1,200 0 0 These sums include the costs of raising the money. The college income has been increased since the returns were made by the substitution of rack- rent for beneficial leases for No. 91, Part 2, and will from Michaelmas last be increased by a similar change in No. 44, Part 1 (see notes on A. 1 and 2). The total increase may be estimated at about 200^. a year. For increase by sales see note on A. 15. m, . f r 1873 includes £224 The income Fines were taken in 1873 for- 1874 „ - „ 1875 „ - „ 1876 The ordinary corporate expenditure for the four years 1873-6 has amounted to - - 1873 - £12,343 5 0 1874 - 12,013 13 0 1875 - 12,496 2 4 1876 - 12,204 4 5 4) 49,057 4 9 12,264 6 2 Average ordinary corporate income - 11,709 16 7 Average deficit - £554 9 7 In the year 1888 the college will have to begin the formation of a sinking fund for paying off the principal of the various fine loans which it will have raised. It will have in each case to lay by annually one fifteenth of the sum borrowed, and to begin laying by at the expiration of fourteen years from the contraction of the loan. Supposing the'college henceforth to borrow at the rate of 1,000^. a year only, the total sum borrowed would amount in 1888 to at least 14,000^. And by confining itself to that sum the college would make a considerable sacrifice of px’esent to future interest, as the yearly average of fines that might be taken is considerably higher. Fine-loans have been taken in respect of leases which became renewable during the three years and a half from Lady-day 1873 to Lady-day 1876 inclusive ; and the college has raised by this means 3,060Z. Had it taken fines for renewing all the leases which it has declined to renew during the same period, it would probably have received on that account about 7,600^., so that the immediate sacrifice amounts to about 4,500^. 57 The Commissionei’s do not invite any expression of opinion as to the need of expenditure for pur- poses connected with the college, hut it is hoped that before this college is called upon to make any fresh contribution for university purjioses it will have an opportunity of making a representation to the Commissioners with. I’egard to its own wants, (Signed) Albert Watson, Brasenose College, Bursar. 29th October 1877. My Dear D allin, Brasenose College, 6th March 1878. I ENCLOSE the proof sheet of answers to No. o corrected. I hope I mav be allowed to correct two errors which have been detected since the answer was sent in ; one, as you will see, is very trifling : the other, referr-ing to fine loans, is more serious. At the time when my answer was made a loan had not been raised in respect of the leases not renewed at Michaelmas and Lady-day 1877, and I ought not, of course, to have included the amounts of fines, which might have been taken for the renewal of such leases in the total amount sacrificed by the college. I am, &c. (Signed) Albert Watson, Bursar. XIII. IIETUJIN EEOM CORPUS CimiSTI COLLEGE. Corpus Christi College, Oxford, Sir, 5th November 1877. Referring to the paper of questions (No. 4) addressed to me by you on behalf of the University Commissioners under date of October 18tb, 1877, I have the honour to state that : — (1.) The statement of the revenue and sources of revenue of our society contained in the Report of the Commission presided over by the Duke of Cleveland cannot be relied upon as sufficient at the present time, and therefore I enclose a statement prepared by the bursar of Corpus and examined by myself, and the Estates Committee of that college will supply the necessary corrections.* (2.) The accounts of the college are made up at the end of each year. We propose, therefore, as soon as our accounts are made up to send to the Commissioners a printed copy of our balance slieet, which will show the income and expenditure of our society for the last year. (3.) No statement was attempted in our returns to the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission as to the prospective increase of the income of our society. The college professed its inability to make any statement on this subject which could be of any value. Nor are we at present in a position to supplement this portion of our former return. I have, &c. (Signed) Edwin Palmer, T. F, Dallin, Esq. Vice-President. . Corpus Christi College, Oxford, 13th February 1878, Sir, ' University of Oxford Commission. In accordance with directions received from the college, I have the honour to enclose, for the information of the Commissioners of the University of Oxford, the following documents : — Corpus' Christi College, Oxford. Income and expenditure account, October 1st, 1870, to September 30, 1877. Supplementary accounts, October 1st, 1876, to September 30, 1877. Liabilities and assets statement, September 30, 1877. Also, in accordance with your letter to the Vice-President of January 11th last, I have the honour to enclose an abstract of the expenditure of the college for the year ending 30th September, 1877, similar to Article III. in the abstract given at pages 96-99 in Vol. 1 of the Report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission. I have, &c, (Signed) Thomas M. Crowder, T. F. Dallin, Esq. Bursai-. &c. &c. &c. Q 6223. * This statement has been entered in the Blue Book. H Corpus Christi College, Oxford. Dr. IncC'ME and Expenditure Account, from October 1st, 1876, to September 30th, 1877. Cr. Expendithue. Income. s. d. £ s. d. By rents of estates : — £ s. d. £ s. {L To annuities - - . 49.3 19 4 Bedfordshire - - 1,205 17 10 ,, repairs to estates, 15 percent. Berkshire - - 1,258 6 7 on rackrents, 15,000/. (Ac- Buckinghamshire - 2,110 3 7 count H.) - - - 2,250 0 0 Devonshire - - 975 19 4 „ insurance - - - 208 6 3 Gloucestershire - 2,635 2 11 2,952 5 7 Hampshire - - 701 1 4 ,, law and agency costs - 316 12 4 Kent - - - 170 6 6 „ interest on fine loans - 1,165 2 3 Lincolnshire - - 631 13 7 1,481 14 7 Oxfordshire - - 3,140 5 7 „ fellowships - - - 5,154 16 6 Somersetshire - - 42 3 0 „ scholarships - - - 2,087 7 6 Wiltshire (Eurnax „ exhibitions - - - 192 12 5 Manor) - - 258 17 6 „ college offices and professor- Oxford houses - - 343 18 7 ships - - - 2,209 5 0 13,473 16 4 — 9,644 1 5 „ corn rents - . - 355 0 3 „ charges — officers - - 595 0 0 „ copyhold rents - - 31 11 2 rates and taxes - 122 5 2 „ miscellaneous rents - - 19 5 5 donations - - 194 4 6 „ West Hendred tithe - - 91 16 3 pensions - - 139 14 0 ,, timber sales - - - 96 2 0 miscellaneous ex- 1,093 15 1 penses - - 377 8 7 „ proportion of trust estate rent— -Pate’s contribution to li- Charity - - - - - 601 12 9 brary fund (Ac- ,, dividends on consols - 1,506 11 2 count G.) - 110 0 0 „ surplus on buttery (Account — 1,538 12 3 B.) - - . 81 11 11 „ deficit on kitchen (Account „ surplus on cellar (Account F.) 3 13 7 A.) - - 45 18 6 „ „ establishment (Ac- ,, ,, common room count D.) - 100 18 8 (Account C.) - 32 10 10 — 186 4 2 ,, ,, bailifi’s account - 1 0 7 „ college dues 64 0 4 ,, „ tuition charges (Account E.) - 266 3 4 — — 345 13 3 „ investment for repayment of Langford loan - - 150 0 0 „ investments for repayment of tine loans - - - 439 11 4 „ instalment paid off Pertenhall loan - - . 174 18 3 764 9 7 ,, balance, being surplus of in- come over expenditure - 199 3 2 £16,925 19 10 £16,925 19 10 To Extraordhtary Expmditurv. Improvements to estates: — West Ilendred improve- ments - - 1,069 17 8 Estates improvements By balance brought down - 199 3 2 (including Pertenhall) 1,780 2 2 „ balance of temporary investment in consols - 2,849 19 10 sold out - - - - ' 2,650 16 8 £2,849 19 10 £2,849 19 10 — February 12th, 1878. Audited and found correct. Charles Plummer, F. A. Clarke, ^ > Auditors. Corpus Christi College, Oxford. Supplementary Accounts from October 1st, 1876, to September 30th, 1877, Ur. 1876, Oct. 1. To stock at date 1877, Sept. 30. „ supplies to date A. Kitchen. 50 - i 2 , 18 I s. (1. 0 0 3 8 1877, Sept. 30. By amount charged in battels to date - - - „ ,, „ stock at date „ „ ,, balance, being deficit Cr. £ s. (/, 2,135 5 2 50 0 0 45 18 6 £2,231 3 8 £2,231 3 8 B. Buttery. 1876, Oct. 1. 1877, Sept. 30. To stock at date - 37 8 2 1877, Sept. 30. By amount charged in battels to „ supplies to date - 515 1 10 date - - - 574 9 8 »> ») „ balance, being profit - 81 11 11 „ „ „ stock at date 59 12 3 £634 1 11 £634 1 11 59 C. 1877, Sept. 30. To supplie.s to date Common Room. £ s. d. 83 12 10 £83 12 10 1877, Sept. 30. By amount charged in battels to date ... „ „ ,, balance, being deficit £ s. d. 51 2 0 32 10 10 £83 12 10 D. 1877, Sept. 30. To charges against establish- ment to date - „ ,, „ balance, being surplus Establishment. 1,372 1 11 100 18 8 £1,473 0 7 1877, Sept. 30. By amount charged in battels to date - • 1,473 0 tl,473 0 7 E. Tuition. 1877, Sept. 30. To amounts paid to tutors and lecturers to date - - 1,31034 £1,310 3 4 1877, Sept. 30. By amount charged in battels to date ... „ „ „ balance, being deficiency supplied by the college - 1,044 0 0 266 3 4 £1,310 3 4 1876, Oct. 1. To stock at date 1877, Sept. 30. „ supplies to date „ „ „ balance, being profit F Cellar. - 1,570 9 4 331 8 1 3 13 7 1877, Sept. 30. >» By amount charged in battels date „ stock at date - to - 337 16 1,567 14 6 6 £1,905 11 0 £1,905 11 0 G. Library Fund. 1877, June 4. To payment to librarian for expenses - - 100 0 0 ,, Sept. 30. „ payments to librarians for salary - . . 34 4 9 „ „ „ balance, as per statement of assets and liabilities - - 390 5 6 £524 10 3 1876, Oct. 1. By amount due by college to this fund ... .361 8 4 1877, Sept. 30. „ Donius, annual contribution 110 0 0 » » „ amount charged in battels to date ... 33 11 8 )> 5) „ rent of Library Field, Brill - 19 :o 3 £524 10 3 H. Repairs Fund. 1877, Sept. 30. To amounts due for repairs to date - . . „ „ „ balance, as per statement of assets and liabilities - 1,443 15 1 J 806 4 11 ; 1877, Sept. 30. By charge of 15 per cent, on an- nual rental of 14,993/. 10s. lorf. 2,250 0 0 £2,250 0 0 £2,250 0 0 Corpus Christi College, Oxford, February 13, 1878. Thomas M. Crowder, llursar. H 2 (iO Corpus Christi College, Oxford. Statement of Assets and Liabilities, September 30th, 1877. Dr- Cr. Lijbilities. Assets, & d. £ s. d. s. d. £ To Members for louudation paj- By cash in hand : — ments due ; — Child and Co. - - . 954 19 0 Fellows . . . 3,G00 14 C Parsons and Co. - - 470 17 0 Scholars - - - 720 0 0 Advances to Mr. Walsh - 151 10 0 Exhibitioners - - - 93 G 8 „ Mr. Holliday - 150 0 0 College officers and profes- 1,727 sors _ - _ 5G5 10 0 Members for battels due 2,823 Librarian . - - 29 6 9 Balance of advances on ac- 5,008 17 11 count of Pate’s Charity 184 „ Sundry persons : — 99 Rents due at date - 9,890 12 8 For Agency - - - 200 0 0 99 Dividends accrued to date - 2G3 10 10 „ College supplies - G56 9 0 j. Amounts for timber due - 123 17 9 „ Charges on estates GIG 5 0 10,278 1,472 14 0 Stock on hand : — ,, Interest accrued on oans to Cellar - - . . 1,567 14 6 date - - 121 0 3 Kitchen - - - 50 0 0 „ Members for caution money - - 1,851 18 2 Buttery - - - 59 12 3 „ Library F'und (Account G.) 390 5 G 1,G77 Repairs Fund (Account H.) 80G 4 11 9 Permanent investments ; — — 1,19G 10 For eaution money - - 1,700 0 0 „ Compositions, College Dues - - 519 5 G „ compositions - - 519 5 G „ Loans on Security of College ,, Warborongh Barn - 80 0 0 Estates : — — 2,299 Fine Loans 2G.90G 0 0 99 Improvements to estates since Langford Loan 7,500 0 0 October 1 , 187G - -2,849 19 10 Pertenhall Loan - 7,113 14 G 99 Investments for Repayment of loans . - . 1,378 0 8 Consols in the hands of the Copyhold Commissioners for investment in land - 39,41 1 9 7 ^99 Estates, college bnildings, ad- vowsons, and miscellaneous £41,519 14 6 property — not valued - — — d. 3 0 7 3 9 G Corpus Christi College, Oxford, February 13, 1878. Thomas M. Crowder. Bursar. Corpus Christi College, Oxford. Expenditure of the College in the year ending September 30th, 1877. £ s. d. 1. The President _ - - - - 1,200 0 0 2. The fellows ... - - 3,954 16 6 3. The scholars and exhibitioners - - 2,279 19 11 4. Allowance. None. 5. University Professors - - 1,500 0 0 6. Tutorial fund, supplemented - - 266 3 4 7. Prizes . _ _ . - - 32 11 0 8. The college officers, and vice-president, dean, &c. - 1,154 5 0 9. The college servants - - 539 14 0 10. The chapel and chapel services - - 150 0 0 11. The library _ _ _ - - 110 0 0 12. Subsci'iptions, donations, &c. - - 194 4 6 13, Maintenance of establishment in college - - 346 19 2 14. Repairs and improvements on college buildings (in- eluding re-connecting the drains) - - 236 4 9 15. Rates, taxes, insurance, &c. on col- £ s. d. lege _ - _ . 151 16 11 Poor rate charged in battels - 63 17 0 — 215 13 11 16. Augmentation of benefice - - - 25 0 4 17 . Interest on loans and rentcharges - 2,226 5 5 Sinking funds . _ - 764 9 7 2,990 15 0 18. Managements of estates and law charges - - 363 1 1 19. Repairs and improvements on estates - - 4,293 14 11 20. Rates, taxes (excepting land and income taxes) and insurance on estates - - 228 4 5 £20,081 7 10 21. Investments. Dues composition - - - 108 9 2 £20,189 17 0 13th February 1878. ‘ (Signed) Thomas M. Crowder, Bursar, 61 XIV. EETURN FROM CHEIST CHURCH. Christ Church, 13th November 1877. The revenues and sources of revenue as given in the Duke of Cleveland’s report are still sub- stantially correct. To render them perfectly accurate at the present time, a few instances would have to be noted in which a property lias been sold and the purchase money reinvested in land. Certain properties also which were then let on beneficial lease have since come into hand and are now let at rackrents. A few grants have been made towards the better endowment of poor livings. Also it should be observed that the borrowing powers in lieu of fines have continued to be exercised. 1. The balance sheet of 1876 is enclosed. 2. Also a scheme is enclosed, which has been very carefully prepared, of the prospective income of Christ Church until the end of the century. It will be seen from the scheme that the Duke of Cleveland’s report was calculated to mislead as to the amount of the prospective increase. It would appear that the report took no account of the large deductions necessary for the payment of interest on the borrowed moneys, and for the repayment of the capital. 3. Bearing upon this subject is an answer sent by Christ Church to certain questions addressed to the colleges in 1874 by the Vice-Chancellor, which 1 have also inclosed. It may be taken to represent very well the true state of tlie college finances ; with one exception however. Whereas at that time Christ Church was prepared to have provided a capital sum by way of contribution towards any great university work, it is now no longer in the power of Christ Church to do so. No action was taken by the university at the time in that matter, and it has since been found necessary to expend the full borrowing power on the restoration of the college buildings. The treasurer will be happy to wait upon the Commissioners at any time, if it be wished, in order to answer any questions that may arise out of the above statement. (Signed) H. G. Liddell, Dean of Christ Church, Oxon. 1. General Balance Sheet for the Year ending December 31, 1876. Dr. £ s. d. Cr. £ .9. d. To Prize fund - . - - 1G6 19 6 By Corporate fund ... - 1.628 2 3 „ Slade trust - - - - - 147 1 6 ,, Capital account ... 13 12 6 „ Holford ditto - - - - 150 18 3 „ Stable ditto .... 39 2 1 „ Carey ditto _ - - - - 430 10 5 „ Stratford ditto ... - 278 13 1 Cash — ,, Library fund - - - - 183 13 6 London & Westminster Bank 1,058 G 10 „ Liddon and White ditto 138 6 10 Treasury - - - 53 1 0 „ Three-fifths South ditto - 1,296 1 7 - - — 1,111 7 10 £2,792 4 8 £2,792 4 8 Prize Fund. Receipts. Expenditure. Balance brought forward from last year - Dividends on £400 Reduced 3 per cents. - 105 2 0 Balance in favour of the fund • 166 19 (Cracherode) - - - - 11 17 6 Lee trust - - - , - - 50 0 0 £166 19 6 £166 19 6 Exhibitioners’ Amalgamated fund. Balance brought forward from last year - „ Radeot improvement account Rental of estates - - - - Dividends on £982 Us. 4rl. consols - The Panncetbrt Exhibition General fund, to balance - - - Balance brought forward from last year - Dividends on £1,047 2s. 5d. Reduced 3 per - 133 11 1 Eleven exhibitioners. Lady Day - - 173 6 8 - 70 12 7 Eleven „ Midsummer - - 173 6 8 - 381 18 9 Eight „ Christmas - - 125 0 0 - 29 2 2 Allowances to exhibitioners towards — - 163 0 0 Establishment charges - 53 18 0 - 411 10 10 Dinners in hall ... - 182 8 1 Tuition .... - 176 8 0 „ Arrears ... - - 198 9 0 Radeot improvements ... - 106 19 0 £1,189 15 5 ■ 00 15 5 Miss Slade’s Trust. £ 5. d. £ s. d. - 115 19 10 Balance in favour of the trust - 147 1 6 cents. 3 1 1 8 £147 1 6 £147 1 6 H 3 ii'Z Lady Holfoed’s Tkust. Balance brought forward from last year Rental of estates - - Dividends on £1,849 10s. 6 T Ditto, and interest 1,630 0 1 2,081 15 8 Fines Loans. Sinking funds in- vestments, share of principal - 104 2 2 Interest to Cas- berd trustees - 252 15 5 356 17 7 .£ .V. < 1 . 1,100 0 o 9,396 0 2 624 17 U) 196 13 0 56 1 0 o 209 1 1 I 3 70 Estates Account — continued. IIeceivts — continued. £ s. d. Roads construction(St. Gilesestates) perM. & S. 302 10 0 Miscellaneous - - - - 1217 5 Fines reserved Michaelmas 1873, 1874, and 1875, borrowed under U. & C. Estates Act - 2,690 0 0 £23,692 4 3^ Expenditure over receipts - - 882 16 2 £24,575 0 5^ Expenditure — continued. & s. d. £ s. d. College Loans (^Temporary). Interest - . - 326 13 0 Interest on investments for pur- chase of laud, &c. - - 20 0 9 Insurances (college buildings) - Sundi'y quit and other small rents Tithe on estates - - - - Rates and taxes . _ . . Coals, gas, and water (hall, chapel, &c.) Stationer3’, printing, advertising, &c. - Law expenses - - - - - Chapel _ . _ . . Educational : The lecturers - - 500 0 0 Prize books, &c. - - 82 9 4 College repairs, alterations, &c. Estates ditto Estates, sundry expenses aud miscellaneous payments (including Bagley and Eaton labour accounts) - - . . . Road making (St. Giles estate) Road repairs (ilitto) - - - Net Sewers construction (ditto) College gardens and groves Servants (Bailili', Clerk of Accounts, Manciple, Groom, Woodmen) . . . 2,785 7 0 27 16 0 54 11 9 894 13 1 589 0 H 126 5 0 24 10 0 394 17 8 380 9 6 582 9 4 1,017 7 1 3,943 12 8 849 6 8 218 13 6 63 10 4 247 13 3 169 9 3 622 6 0 £24,575 0 51 ^2 St. John’s College, Oxford. Summary of Receipts and Expenditure for the Year ending Michaelmas 1870, Establishment Account. Receipts. Expenditure. s . d. £ s . d. £ s. d. Battels, &c. foundation 3,642 9 2 Kitchen contractor - - 4,206 4 0 „ non-foundation 7,883 3 2 Steward, common room - - 932 11 0 Entrance and graduation fees - 202 4 2 Tutors (fees included in battels) - - 1,603 0 0 Compositions for college dues - - 15 5 6 University dues Buttery: — Bread 193 9 0 473 5 0 Butter 207 10 6 Cheese 85 19 5 Sundries 25 1 4 512 0 3 Cellar: — Beer, stout, cider 334 7 7 Sundries 4 4 6 338 12 1 Servants (including bedmakers, buttery clerks. messenger, porter, buttery man, hallman. servitors) - - - - - 1,304 3 9 I’en.sions - - - - - 121 4 0 Laundresses - - - - - 739 8 4 Coals, gas, and water - - - 510 40 11 Rates and taxes - - 318 12 5 Stationery, printing, &c. - - 97 1 6 Furniture - - ‘ - - 160 2 0 Linen - - - - - - 33 0 0 Cutlery, ironmongery, and plate - - 55 3 0 Crockery aud glass - - 40 18 0 Miscellaneous payments - - 221 17 6 Cautions, payments in excess of receipts for the year " * 40 0 0 £11,707 14 3 Receipts over expenditure - 35 7 9 £11,743 2 0 £11,743 2 0 St. John’s College, Oxford. Summary of Receipts and Expenditure for the Year ending Michaelmas 1870, Estate account Establishment account Receipts. £ s. d. £ s. d. - 23,692 4 3^ - 11,743 2 0 35,435 6 3i Excess of expenditure over receipts - - - 882 16 2 Less establishment profits - 35 7 9 847 8 5 Expenditure. £ s. d. Estates account - - 24,575 0 5^ Establishment account - 11,707 14 3 d. 36,282 14 £36,282 14 8i £36,282 14 71 XVII. RETURN FROM JESUS COLLEGE. Jesus College, Oxford, Sir, 14th December 1877. I HAVE the honour of forwarding you herewith a statement of the changes that have taken place as regards revenue and sources of revenue in this college since the report of the Commission presided over by the Duke of Cleveland, which will, I think, render that report a trustworthy guide at the present time, and will also supply answers to questions 1 and 2. I also enclose an account of our income and expenditure for the year 1875-0. The receipts with some few exceptions (I refer to Flintshire and Denbighshire rents, houses at Cowbridge which are to Lady-day 1877, and there may be one or two others, but are all pointed out in previous returns), are to Michaelmas 1876. Prospective increase, beyond the cases mentioned, I am not in a position to forecast, but, against this, the college has undertaken to endow the Celtic chair in this university with 5001. per annum, and has raised a loan of 2,350/. for building purposes, for which outlay, taking into consideration the depressed state of agriculture, a return of 05/. per annum only can be looked for to meet payment of interest at 4 per cent., and 78/. 6s. 8d. to be annually invested to provide for repayment of loan in 30 years. It is also deemed desirable to raise a further sum of not less than 3,000/. for like improvements which are much required on another part of the college estate with T expect a like result, viz., that of absorbing increase, if any, from other sources. Further, the perishable and perishing nature of the old stone forming the external surface of the college walls will in coming years render considerable outlay from tirne to time necessary. Hence I am not of opinion that any appreciable increase of nett income can for many years be looked for. I have, &c. (Signed) W. Eccles Jones, T. F. Dallin, Esq. Vice-Principal and Bursar. Jesus College, Oxford. As to Sources of Income and Variations in Income since 1871. Decrease. Increase. Return A. 2, to be added. Return A. 2, variations. Return A. 2 and 5. Return A. 5 £ s. d. Glamorgan, Eghvysilau, Evan Davies, land for dock - - - - — Do. do. Edward Thomas, for encroachment - - - — Do. Ewenny, Major F. Picton Turberville, use of road - - — Anglesey, Llangwyllog, 1871, Ellen Pritchard, at 150/., now 170/. - - — Flintshire, Nannerch, 1871, John Davies, 35/., now .John Roberts, 38/. Gloucester, Badgeworth, C. Oakley, sold in 1876 (Stock Red. 3 °/o with Copy- hold Commissioners, 3,244/. 11s. 5d. (1) rent) - - - - 40 0 0 Gloucester, Dumbleton, 1871, M. Drinkwater, 290/., now C. Morris, 320/. - — Essex, Brentwood, Shenfield, and Messing, M. Manley and Earl of Veriilam, sold in 1877 (Stock as above, 6,233/. 14s. 5d. (2) rents) ... io7 o 0 Glamorgan, Llantrisant, 1871, Watkin Williams, 54/., now Watkin Williams and John Willis, 74/. ...... Glamorgan, Wenvoe, 1871, Rees John, two farms at 139/. now (from Michael- mas, 1876) Richard John, at 180/. ----.- — Glamorgan, Llancarfan, 1871, John John at 110/., now J. and E. John at 120/. — Do. do. Representatives of Henry Yorath - - - — Do. Llantrisant, 1871, Representatives of Evan David, at 90/. now David Thomas, 78/., Gwilym Williams, Esq., 30/. - - - - — Glamorgan, Llantrisant, Representatives of Evan David, at 65/., now David David at 80/. ; in 1879 to pay 90/. ------ — Monmouthshire, Llangattook, 1871, John Jenkins & Co., at 45/., now Richard Williams, at 50/. - Monmouthshire, Christ Church, 1871, W. W. Cope, 25/., now William Morgan, 28/., and Mrs. Cope, 6/. - - - - - - — Monmouthshire, Cwmearvan, 1871, Ballinger, 30/., now John Jones, 40/. - — Oxfordshire, Bampton, 1871, Representatives of R. Gerring, 273/. 8s., now W. H. and G. Gerring, 320/. ...... — Northamptonshire, Plumpton and Woodend, 1871, J. and J. J. Aris, 730/., now J. Aris, 520/., John Edwards (Michaelmas, 1877), 180/. (3) - - 30 0 0 Oxford, 23, Cornmarket, 1871, Fiske, at 100/., now Lewis, Sons & Parker, 150/. — Surrey, St. Mary, Lambeth, 1871, Meredith, 586/. 7s. 6d. from Christmas, 1876, 1000/. - - ..... annual increase — Surrey, St. Mary, Lambeth, Braby, from Michaelmas 1878, an increase of 200/. or thereabouts is anticipated. £ s. d. 2 0 0 0 0 6 0 10 20 0 0 3 0 0 30 0 0 20 0 0 41 0 0 10 0 0 4 0 0 18 O 0 15 0 0 5 0 0 9 0 0 10 0 0 46 12 0 50 0 0 413 12 6 Decrease in rental (sec Investment of Purchase Moneys by Copyhold Commissioners) - £177 0 0 Increase £697 6 0 December 1877. I 4 72 Jesus College, Oxford. Return A. 15. .3,214^. 11s. 5cZ. 3 per cents. Reduced. — Copyhold Connnissioners ; proceeds of sale of land in Badgeworth. 6,233Z. 14s. od. 3 percents. Reduced. — Copyhold Commissioners; proceeds of sale of houses and land in Brentwood, Shenfield, and Messing. 1871. 4,024?. Is. IcZ. New 3 per cents., now 4,615?. 3s. Gd. Caution fund 591?. 2s. 5c?. added. Payment for compounders dues in ]871, 3?. 9s. 4c?., now 71. 11s. 8c?. 1871. 3,366?. 19s. 3c?. Consols, now 5,546?. 8s. 8c?. After the report of the Commission presided over by the Duke of Clevela.nd, the bursar found that in the new bond given to the Vicar of Holyhead securing to him the payment of the annuity or augmentation, in 1865, then reduced to 435?. (previously 500?.) per annum, the dividends on 4,621?. Is. 3c?. were expressly retained with tithes as a security for the payment of said annuity. The above stock represents — £ s. d. Endowment of Llandovery exhibition (Mr. Phillips) - 900 0 0 Holyhead annuity _ - _ - _ 4^621 1 3 Fund for extraordinary expenditure - - - 25 7 5 (Signed) W. Eccles Jones. December 1877. Income and Expenditure of Jesus College, Oxford, 1875-6. (Some f few rents, houses at Cowbridge, Flintshire, to Lady-day 1877, are included, marked in former Return.) Income Brought forward, arrears Reserve for building Balance £ - 11,657 51 589 - 1,417 8 16 13 6 d. 1 11 >From previous account. oj 13,716 4 5 p. i Expenditure - - - - To be carried on to next account, arrears Suspended fellowship for Celtic chair - „ „ for King Charles I. scholars For building and amount due thereon to Glamorgan- 11,748 102 s. 3 2 137 14 10 116 10 9 d. 0 9 sliire agent ------ 50f ; 2 0 Balance . - - - - 1,105 . 11 1 13,7ie 1 4 5 (Signed) W. Eccles December 1877. Jesus College, Oxford] Income, 1875-6. £ S. ( r?. Rental ------ 8,182 17 11 Dividends ------ 542 8 8 Rentcharges and fixed payments - - - 243 6 11 Tithes - - - - - 630 15 5 Fees - - 80 14 6 Timber and underwood - - - - 235 17 0 Sundry receipts ----- 1 1 0 Composition for dues . . - - 12 1 0 Room rents - . . - . 493 15 0 Mr. Meyrick’s estate for scholars and exhibitioners 1,080 0 0 Repayment of rates by members of college - 154 10 8 11,657 1 1 (Signed) W. Eccles Jones, 73 Expenditure, 1875-76. To Principal _ . - „ fellows (allowances and all included) „ scholars _ _ - „ exhibitioners _ - - „ college officei's - - - „ examiners - . - „ clerks - - - - „ servants - - - - „ surveyor of college buildings „ donations and pensions - „ chapel - - - - „ library - - - „ Vinerian reader (University Chest) „ rentcharges and fixed payments - „ rates and taxes - - - „ college battels - - - aafents’ commission, &c. - „ prizes . - - - „ college repairs and bills - „ estate repairs . _ - „ improvements on estates „ allowance to tenant ,, invested in Government stock „ fire insurance - - - £ s. d. - - 696 0 0 - - 3,514 7 0 - - 1,720 0 0 - - 1,135 11 0 - 680 0 0 - 26 5 0 - 74 0 0 - 60 8 2 - 30 0 0 - 86 4 0 - 99 3 0 - 8 5 8 - - 250 0 0 - - 313 13 2 - - 438 9 4 - 64 4 O O - 222 11 6 - 38 18 0 - - 615 5 7 - - 220 7 10 - - 606 15 2 - 11 6 0 - - 762 1 0 - 74 7 4 X’l 1,748 3 0 (Signed) W. Eccles Jones. Jesus College, Oxford. December 1877. This year the sum of 2,350^. has been raised on mortgage for farmhouse and buildings at Bampton and cottages at Plumptou. Interest to be paid four per cent, and of 2,350^. to be annually invested to form a sinking for repayment of loan. In the present year considerable expenditure has been incurred in the erection of cottages in Glamorganshire, repairs, and improvement of tenements in Carmarthen. (Signed) W. Eccles Jones. XVIII RETURN FROM WADHAM COLLEGE. Wadham College, Oxford, My Dear Dallin, February 12, 1878. I AM sending you an answer to question No. 7, as far as regards the college expenditure. In a day or two I will send some further information as to the coi’rections necessary to make the abstract given in the report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission applicable to the year 1876. But as tliis is ready I have thought it best to send it you at once. As our accounts have not yet been balanced for the year 1876, I cannot guarantee the precise accuracy of every figure I have given, but it will be found substantially correct. With much regret for the long delay there has been. I am, &c. (Signed) G. E. Thorley. P.S. — Our accounts are from January 1st to December 31st in each year, consequently the expres- sion in your letter of inquiry, “ the years 1876-77 ” does not apply to us. Q 6223. K 74 Wadham College. — T he expenditure of the College in the year 1876 (arranged as in vol. 1, p. 117, of the Report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission). £ s. d. 1. The warden (including benefactions) - - 1,581 13 4 2. The fellows (14) - - - - - 3,831 6 0 3. The scholars, clerks, and exhibitioners - - 922 10 0 4. Allowances to resident members on the foundation - — 5. University professors . . _ _ 200 0 0 6. Tutorial Fund - . . _ , 150 0 0 7. Examiners and prizes - - - - 43 119 8. College officers, viz., subwarden, dean, bursar, chaplain, . catechist, Ac. . . _ _ _ 4,47 3 4 9. College servants _ . _ . . 1^223 6 6 {a.) 10. Chapel and chapel services - {h.) 11. Library _ _ _ 12. Subscriptions, donations, &c. 13. Maintenance of establishment in college 14. Repairs of college buildings - 15. Rates, taxes, insurance, &c. of college (c.) 16. Augmentation of benefices 17. Interest on loans . _ - 18. Management of estates and law charges 19. Repairs and improvements of estates {d.) 20. Rates, taxes, insurance, Ac. on estates 21. Investments (for repayment of loans) 38 17 110 11 404 15 77 3 287 19 154 2 10 9,473 0 10 - 171 5 9 - 992 0 10 - 138 3 1 10,774 10 6 130 13 8 £10,905 4 2 Notes — {a.) 10. “ Chapel and Chapel Services.'’ No separate account is kept for the chapel. The stipends of the chaplains are included in No. 8, and the hills for lighting, heating, and cleaning the chapel and for repairs are included in Nos. 9, 13, 14. (6.) 11. “ The Library.” This sum consists of fees paid on admission and at the B.A. degree. (c.) 16. Certain sums are paid from Dr. Wills’ Living Fund for this purpose, but nothing from the corporate income of the college. (rf.) 20. Insurance. In 1877 the whole of the buildings on the college estates were insured. The annual premium is 54/. 7s. lid. Dr. Wadham College. — Account of Income and Expendituee for the Year 1875. Income. KxPENniTlIRE. £ A" d. I. Stipends, increment, and allowances 6,476 4 2 Exhibitions granted by warden and fellows 93 6 8 Fines divisible and paid 80 14 4 Wood money divisible and paid ... 109 3 7 II. Estates expenditure : — Repairs and ordinary charges on estates 134 14 7 Improvement account (ex- traordinary charges) 1,060 8 7 Fire insurance 20 6 3 Land and Property Tax 88 17 7 Fixed charges on estates 13 5 7 Agency expenses - 80 10 4 Subscriptions and donations 41 0 0 Interest on loan for improve- ment of estates - 133 16 6 III. College expenditure : — Servants’ wages 1,133 0 3 Rates and taxes 164 17 2 Subscriptions and donations 77 13 6 £ s. d. 6,759 8 9 1,572 19 5 General charges, viz. Tradesmen’s bills, &c. - ♦Repairs of 504 10 college (ex- ceptional) - 233 18 Interest on loan from bankers 50 17 I. Dividends on stoek Interest on furniture (amount invested to Dec. 31st, 1875, 2,530/. 19s.7d.) II. Estates Rents . - - Tithe rentcharges ; Hockley - 902 1 6 Southrop - 327 17 8 Enfranchisements of copy- holds . - - Balance from Mr. Good- ridge’s estates - III. College : — 1. Admissions Fees for degrees Compositions for dues 2. College dues Room rents Balance of buttery account Balance of kitchen account Balance of coal account s. d. 204 5 1 122 9 8 5,592 3 n 1,229 19 2 18 15 0 53 8 7 69 5 0 121 4 0 127 () 6 1,034 3 5 281 13 6 84 19 7 113 18 3 21 12 6 Cr. £ s. 326 14 9 6,894 6 4| 317 15 6 Excess of expenditure over income 789 6 5 2,164 17 4 £10,497 5 6 1,536 7 3 1,422 1 7^ £10,497 5 6 New chimneys in front of college Flue for heating apparatus 170 0 0 63 IS 6 £233 18 6 75 Wadham College. Account of Income and Expenditure of Trust Funds for the year 1875. Uv. lixPENDiTUiiE. Income. Cr. I. — Mr. Goodridge’s Benefaction. Exhibitions, &c. paid Expenditure on estates Balance transferred to college account £ s. d. - 144 0 0 - 93 1 11 - 53 8 7 Rents £290 10 6 £ s. d- - 290 10 C £290 10 6 Amount paid to college officers E.xpenditure on estates Balance - - - II.— Dr. Smith’s Benefaction. &' s. d. I - 136 16 8 Balance brought down from previous year 21 15 6 Kents . . . . . - 63 14 1 £222 6 3 ;£ s. d- - 76 17 1 -145 9 2 £222 6 3 Transferred to college direction of Ordinance III. — Sir Benjamin Maddox’s Exhibition. £ s. d. I account (stipends), (by of 1857)- - - 9 15 10 Cash received (Chancery divili.nds, 9/. less income tax) 17s. f:d. £ s. d 9 15 10 Exhibitions paid Balance IV. — Mr. Bigot’s Exhibition. £ s. d. 3 0 0 0 7 6 Balance from previous year Dividends for 1875 £ s. d. 0 7 6 3 0 0 £3 7 6 £3 7 6 V. — Mr. Somerscale’s Exhibition. £ s. d. I Exhibition paid - - - - -12 0 0 Dividends - £ s. d. 12 0 0 VI. — Mr. Warner’s Exhibition. Exhibition paid Balance £ s. d. 10 0 0 10 0 0 £20 0 0 Balance from 1874 Dividend for 1875 £ s. d. 10 0 0 10 0 0 £20 0 0 Exhibition paid - - - . ♦Transferred to college account (stipends) VII. — Dr. Gerard’s Exhibition. £ s. d. 2 0 0 2 0 0 Dividend for 1875 £4 0 0 * By direction of the Ordinance made by the University Commissioners of 1857. £ s. d. 4 0 0 £4 0 0 Exhibitions paid in 1875 - Balance carried to Living Fund VIII. — Dr. Wills’ Exhibitions. £ s. d. - 139 7 0 - 112 0 9 £ s. d. Dividends for 1875, viz., interest of 8,450/. Consols, less income tax - - - - -25 179 £251 7 9 £251 7 9 Balance due to college, January 1, Grants in aid of college livings - Expenditure on estates - Interest on loan for buildings IX. — Dr. Wills’ Living Fund. £ s. d. 1875 - 1,273 14 0 95 8 9 £230 14 2 8 2 2 Balance from exhibitions Dividends in Consols - - - Rents, &c. - . . . Balance due from Living Fund to college 238 16 4 £ s. d. 112 0 9 37 3 6 239 17 10 1,218 17 0 £1,607 19 1 £1,607 19 1 Trust Funds not included in this Account. 1. Dr. Hody’s exhibitions ; the accounts of which are kept by the warden. 2. Dr. Wills’ benefaction to the warden, the amount of which is paid to the warden without deduction. 3. Lord Wyndham’s benefaction to the warden, which is paid in the sjune way. K 2 Wadham College. Corrections in the Abstract of the Property, Income, and E.'cpenditure of Wadham College, given in page IIG, &;c. of the Eeport of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, Vol. L, necessary to make it applicable to the jmar 187G. I . — Property of the College : (1.) Lands belonging to the college: — A. The rental of the college is nearly as possible the same as in 1871, though there has been in some cases a slight increase, and in others a slight diminution of rent. B. In respect of the rental from trust estates, the following corrections ai’e needed : — (1.) The money belonging to Dr. Wills’ Living Fund has been, with the exception of 249Z. 9s. 2(7 Consols, invested in the purchase of estates, the rental of which in 1876 was 2337 18s. 2(7 (2.) The estates belonging to Dr. Smith’s benefaction were sold in 1875. The proceeds, 6,0507 17s. 4(7 Consols, are in the hands of the Copyhold Commissioners, by whom the dividends are paid to the college. /f‘\TNo alteration is needed. (4.)J (5.) Stocks, shares, and other investments : A. the stocks belonging to the college have been diminished by the sale of 1,0007 Consols and of 3,0007 India 5 per cents., and increased by the purchase of 1917 7s. Consols ancl 3707 15s. Sd. India 4 per cents., the latter being an investment for the repayment of loans. Since the year 1871 the college has purchased the furniture in the college rooms occupied by undergraduates. The amount so invested was, at the beginning of 1876, 2,5307 19s. Id. B. Stocks, &C. belonging to trust funds. Alterations in the investment of Dr. Wills’ Living Fund, and of Dr. Smith’s benefaction have been already described ( (1) B.). In 1874 the college received the sum of 2,4407 in trust to found exhibitions for pupils from the Manchester school. The income from this fund was, in 1876, 1217 Is. 5(7 No other change is needed in this part of the report. II. -Income of the College in the year 1876 : (1.) Income derived from external sources : A. B. £ s. (7 £ s. (7 Lands House property 'j > 5,589 10 9 1,030 18 10 Tithe rentcharges - 1,194 12 10 Stock, share.s, &c. - 178 9 11 504 10 5 her properties, viz. : Interest on furniture in college 119 0 10 Dividends on money in hands of Copy- hold Commisioners - - 179 7 11 £7,081 14 4 1,714 17 2 In the benefactions to the warden there is no change, above. (2.) Income derived from internal sources : Room rents, college dues, fees, &c. ^Profits in kitchen, buttery, &c. Composition for dues - - - They are not included in the sums given £ s. d. - 1,582 1 9 142 11 5 100 17 0 £1,825 10 3 (3.) Total corporate income : £ s. d. From external sources - - 7,081 14 4 From internal sources - - 1,825 10 3 8,907 4 7 (4.) Total income from trust funds (gross) - - - 1,714 17 2 (Not including benefactions to the warden.) (5.) The tuition fund: Received from undergraduates - 877 10 0 The college - - - -150 00 tDr. Wills’ benefaction - - 25 0 0 1,052 10 0 (6.) No correction appears to be needed here. * In the calculation of these profits the wages of servants are not included. ■f By permission of the visitor the college has used the power given hy the Act (20 & 21 Viet. c. 25. s. 3.) to pay 50/. a year from this fund to the augmentation of the Tuition Fund. The first such payment was made for the half-year ending Christmas 77 III . — The Expenditure of the College. This information lias already been given. (3.) The value of a tutorship in 187G was 245?. 9s. 2d. (4.) No change. (5.) The number of undergraduates paying tuition fee.s in 1876 was 40. (0.) The expenditure for trust funds will be given in the account of income and expendi- ture, which it is hoped will be ready shortly. As stated above (I. (1.) B.), the college has now in the hands of the Copyhold Commissioners the sum of 6,050?. 17s. 4c?. belonging to Dr. Smith’s benefaction. The college has since 1871 borrowed money for the purpose of improving the buildings on the college estates, and for drainage, amounting altogether to 5,157?. 10s. 10c?. The college has given up its private insurance fund, and both the college buildings and all the buildings on the estates are now insured in a public office. Additional Statement on the Expenditure of the College. Since the returns were made to the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission the expenditure of the college has become considerably greater than its average in previous years. (1.) A large expenditure has been found necessary on the estates, principally in farm buildings. Thus the outlay for repairs and improvements on estates, which in 1871 was 804?. 18,s. 4c?., was £ s. d. In 1873 1,181 17 0 In 1874 - - . - . 2,483 4 0 In 1875 ----- 1,195 3 2 In 1876 ----- 1,206 16 0 In 1877 ----- 1,632 11 10 For the purpose of this additional expenditure the college has borrowed money, amountino- in all to 5,157?. 10s. 10c?. The interest on this, with the necessary investments for repayment am^ounted in 1876 to 323?. (2.) In 1871 the amount paid for insurance was very small. Since that time, as stated above all the college buildings, furniture, plate, books, &c. ; and all the farm buildings on the estates have been insured. The annual amount paid as premium is 108?. 13s. 8c?. (3.) Considerable outlay has been found necessary, and much moi’e is needed, on the colleo-e buildings. The masonry is in parts much decayed, and the whole roof of the college’needs renewin*tr. Mr. Jackson, architect, and fellow of the college, rej)orts that a sum of 2,500?. or 3,000?. will be required for these purposes. The college is also very greatly in want of lecture rooms, having at present no rooms suitable for the purpose. There are other repairs and improvements which, though not so immediately necessary as those mentioned above, will before long involve considerable expenditure. Under these circumstances the stipends of the Warden and fellows have already been reduced, and the college has obtained the sanction of the visitor to the suspension of the two fellowships which may next fall vacant. (Signed) G. E. Thorley, Wadham College, 14th March 1878. Bursar. XIX. UETUKN FROM PEMBROKE COLLEGE. Sir, Pembroke College, Oxford, October 1877. I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of three papers, marked No. 2, No. 3, and No. 4, which you were desired by the chairman of the University of Oxford Commissioners to address to me, and I have much pleasure in supplying the information asked for. I have, &c. (Signed) E. Evans, The Rev. T. Vere Bayne, Master of Pembroke. Pembroke College. No. 4. 1. The statement of the revenue and sources of revenue of the college, contained in the report of the Commission presided over by the Duke of Cleveland, may be still relied on as, in tlie main, correct ; but certain changes have occurred since, resulting, on the wliole, in a .slight increase of income. The bursar’s notes of these change.s, with references to the printed report of the Commissionei’s, are appended. K 3 78 2. A balance sheet, showing the income and expenditure of the college for the past year, shall be sent to Her Majesty’s Commissioners in the course of this week. 3. No corrections have to be made in the report of the Commission presided over by the Duke of Cleveland as to the prospective increase of the income of this college. (Signed) E. Evans, Master of Pembroke. Pembroke College, Oxford. Corporate Income. .♦ A 1. The land at Thatcham, instead of being let on beneficial lease, is now let at rackrent to Mr* Fidler for the sum of 30/1. per annum. A 2. iii. The Close at Speen has been sold for 250Z. and the proceeds invested in consols by the Copyhold Commissioners. A 2. viii. The farm at Fenton has been sold for 6,580^., which sum the Copyhold Commissioners are at this moment ready to invest in consols. A 2. X. The Reverend H. Wightwick pays on this parcel now only a nominal rent of Is. per annum. A. 3. Both these properties have been sold. A 10. Out of the Wallingford tithe, portions have been made over to the Rector of All Plallows, amounting to 20L per annum nett. In addition, a new farm at Rodborne Chene}’, near Swindon, has, been bought for 22,0001., producing a gross rental of SOol. This farm is owned partly by the college and partly by the Phipps’ Trust. A 15. Most of the stocks imder this head have been sold out in connexion with the purchase of Moredon Farm. The college retains — No. IV., 500^. Lancashire and Yorkshire 4 per cent. Debentures, and 2,5001. Reduced 3 per cents. College Savings. Trust Funds. B I. ix. Part of the Townsend Farm has been sold to the Cheltenham and Banbury Direct Railway Company, and the purchase money invested in 1,365Z. 2s. 2d. Reduced 3 per cents. ; the rent of the farm being lowered to 386i. per annum. B II. iii. Part of Mr. Greening’s farm is let to the Bullingdon Cricket Club, and the college makes an increase of 201. on the former rent. B XV. The stocks remain much the .same, xvith the exception of the money resulting from the sale of the advowson of St. Aldate’s, which went with other moneys towards the purchase of Moredon Farm. Sir, Pembroke College, Oxford, December 14, 1877. I have the honour to send you an account of the income and ex]ienditure of this college from January 1st to December 31st, 1870. I have, &c. (Signed) J. Mowat, Bursar. (Report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, cf. Vol. I., pp. 120, &c.) Abstract of the Returns of Pembroke College, Oxford. I. The property of the College on Isi January, 1877 : — (1.) Lands belonging to the college : Acreage of A. Lands let on beneficial leases A. R. P. Acreage of A. Lands let at rackrent - 1,644 2 7 Acreage of B. Lands let at rackrent - 964 1 20 2,608 3 27 The annual income therefrom is — £ s. d. A. From lands let at rackrent - - - - 2,781 7 11 B. Do. do. - - - 1,236 7 3 £4,017 15 2 79 (2.) House property ; A. Let on beneficial leases . _ _ B. Let at rackrent - _ _ - (3.) Tithe rentcharges : A. Gross amount awarded . _ _ (L) Other rentcharges, quitrents, &c. : A. - - - - - B. (5.) Stocks, shares, &c., of the net annual value of: A. ----- - B. College return - - £551 0 0 Master’s return - - 127 14 6 (6.) Other properties, yielding in annual income : A. - - - - - B. - - - - - £ s. d. 30 8 2 309 6 6 250 5 7 162 10 4 93 2 8 678 14 6 116 14 9 210 4 8 (7.) A new assessment to the local rate has been made, but is not yet published. (8.) The sum of 3,944i{. 18s. lOd. is held by the college on account of caution. Of this sum 2,400Z. has been employed in the purchase of Moredon Farm, and the remainder is covered by investments in Reduced 3 per cent, stock. (10.) )>No alteration. (ii-)j The proceeds of the sale of the advowson referred to have been partly applied to the purchase of Moredon Farm. II. — Income of the College in the year 1876. (1.) Income, after deducting fixed charges, derived from external sources : — £ s. d. £ s. d. Lands - - - 2,325 5 1 1,417 14 4 House property — 30 13 9 Tithe rentcharges - - 343 10 1 Other rentcharges - 221 16 7 161 5 10 Stocks, shares, &c. - 92 3 3 352 13 8 Other properties - 116 14 9 280 6 3 3,099 9 9 2,242 13 10 Dr. Smith’s advowson fund 124 2 1 £3,099 9 9 2,366 15 11 (2.) Income derived from internal sources: — £ s. d. Income from room rents, &c. - - - 2,011 16 (3.) Total corpoi’ate income : — £ s. d. From external sources - 3,099 9 9 „ internal » “ - 2,011 16 3 5,111 6 0 (4.) Total net income from trust funds - - - 2,366 15 11 (5.) The tuition fund : — £ s. d. Received from undergraduates - 1,365 0 0 Received from the college - 1,365 0 0 (6.) The prospective increase referred to has been realised. The lady mentioned is still alive. III. — Expenditure of the College in the year 1876. £ s. d. 1. The master - - . - - 800 0 0 2. The fellows (10) - - 1,925 0 0 3. The scholars and exhibitioners - 692 10 0 4. Allowances - - - _ _ 5. University professors - - - 6. Tutorial Fund • . _ 7. Examiners and prizes - _ 30 0 0 8. College officers - - - 210 0 0 9. College servants - - - 10. The chapel and chapel services - - 50 0 0 80 Expenditure for the year 1878 — continued. 11. The library ------ 12. Subscriptions, donations, &c. - - _ 13. Maintenance of establishment - - - 14. Repairs, &c. on college buildings - - _ 15. Rates, taxes, &c. on college buildings 16. Augmentation of benefices - - - - 17. Interest on loans - . - - - .£>5,476 10 2 oP s. d. 28 14 0 174 0 0 622 5 3 128 15 10 1 8. Management of estates and law charges 19. Repairs, &c. on estates 20. Rates, taxes, &c. on estates - £?262 8 1 44 18 5 169 10 0 47 19 8 21. Investments (towards estate fund) - - - 187 12 10 .£>5,111 6 0 (2.) The value of a fellowship remains the same, viz., 200£ per annum, with rooms. (3.) The tutorships have averaged in value 360Z. per annum ; and the lectureships from 120£ to 240^. (4.) The value of the scholarships remains the same. (5.) The number of undergraduates paying tuition fees remains about the same. (6.) In the expenditure of income arising from trust funds during the year 1876 there is no material alteration from that during the year 1871. (7.) The value of the trust scholarships remains about the same. Dear Sir, Pembroke College, Oxford, December 31, 1877. I HAVE the honour to send you herewith a copy of the balance sheet of Pembroke College for the year 1876, which I hope will complete the return on behalf of the college, and beg to remain. Dear Sir, Yours, &c. (Signed) J. Mowat. Sir, Pembroke College, March 23, 1878. In the abstract of the returns of Pembroke College, contained in the report of the Duke of Cleveland’s Commission, the canonry annexed to the mastership is included under the income and expenditure of the college. This is incorrect and misleading. The canonry is not a part of the corporate property of the college ; it does not appear in the accounts, nor does it in any way come under the cognizance of the college. The net income of the canonry in 1876 was 775Z. 10s. 5ci I have, &c. E. Evans, T. F. Dallin, Esq., M.A., Master. Secretary to the University of Oxford Commission. 'fhe Bursar in Account with Pembroke College, Oxford, January 1st, 1876, to December 31st, 1876. 1. The Consolidated Fund. Dr. Cr. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ 5. d. s. d. To rent receipts - - - - 2,282 1 3 By the Master, Fellows, and „ King Charles’ benefaction 70 1 7 Scholars - . - . - 3,332 0 0 „ Tiddington estate — ,, allowance in lieu of rooms - 85 10 0 ,, Dr. Radcliffe’.s benefaction 6 13 2 College officers - . . . - 260 0 0 „ Mr. Phipps’ „ 40 0 0 Porters - - - - 130 0 0 „ Rodborne estate .^62 11 10 Common-room man - - 41 19 6 — 679 6 7 171 19 6 Entrance and graduation fees - 282 0 0 Fixed charges on lands - 10 7 2 College charges : Dues 679 13 6 Subscriptions, &c. - - - - 28 14 0 Room rent G49 1 0 Domus battels and common-room .Janitor and mes- account - - - - - - 72 7 9 sengcr C4 3 2 Insurance and licenses - 25 17 6 1,392 17 8 Wallingford and Warborough rates - 40 8 2 Profits in kitchen and buttery 185 0 2 Gas - - - - 7 1 14 10 „ grocery - 48 13 8 Water - - - - 11 6 0 Discounts, &c. . - - 36 5 6 Local Board rate - - - 113 8 0 19 4 1 s 10 Management of trust funds 43 12 8 Prize books . . - . - 30 0 0 Repair of close scholars’ rooms 18 6 1 Tradesmen’s bills - - - - 276 6 2 61 18 9 Bursar’s expenses, postage, &c. - 13 12 1 Mulcts - - . - - 7 10 0 Sundry expenses - - - - - 8 4 2 Compositions - . . - 80 15 0 Balance to credit of estate and Repair Fund - - 504 13 3 £5,056 i 8 7 £5,056 8 7 81 2, The Estate and Repair Fund. Dk. Cr. s. d. 1 & s. d. To balance from 1875 - - 478 13 0 j Repairs at Can Court and Fritwell « - 169 10 0 ,, balance of Consolidated Fund, 1876 - - 504 13 3 1 New roof and other repairs to collfg': - - 463 8 8 „ Mr. Phipps’ benefaction - - 642 1 11 I Law and agency - - - 31 6 4 i Balance to next account - - - - 961 3 2 i!il,625 8 2 £1,625 8 2 Trust Funds. Dr. Cr. s. d. £ 5. d. £ s. d. To Boulter and Radcliffe scholarship - 272 6 5 By scholars, &c. - 105 19 7 Balance - 166 6 10 2T2 6 5 „ Hcnney scholarship - - » - 302 3 8 „ scholar, &c. - 56 16 6 Balance - 245 7 2 302 3 8 „ Ilolford scholarship - - - 37 13 1 „ scholar, &c. 15 2 4 Balance - 22 10 9 37 13 1 „ King Charles’ benefaction - 474 10 4 „ scholars, &c. - 191 11 2 „ Consolidated Fund - 70 1 7 Balance - 212 17 7 474 10 4 „ Bishop Morley’s scholarship - 111 17 0 ,, scholar, &c. - 76 6 10 Balance - 35 10 2 111 17 „ Cades and Stafford scholarship - 237 6 6 „ scholars, &c. - 54 16 5 Balance - 182 10 1 237 6 6 „ Phipps’ benefaction ... - 723 3 6 „ repairs, &c. - 31 1 7 „ chaplain 10 0 0 „ Consolidated Fund - 40 0 0 „ Estate and Repair Fund - 642 1 11 — 723 3 6 „ Rodborne estate - 836 11 1 „ repairs account - 133 6 3 „ Phipps’ L’mid - - 140 13 0 „ Consolidated F’und - 562 11 10 836 11 1 Rous scholarship . .. - 133 2 0 „ scholar, &c. 62 7 7 Balance 70 14 5 — 133 2 0 „ St. Aldate’s Rectory sale money - 116 7 8 ,, Balance - - 116 7 8 „ Balance from 1875 - 150 8 5 „ repairs, &c. - 84 2 0 234 10 5 „ Tiddington estate : „ scholars, &c. - 356 9 5 s. d. Balance - 270 6 5 Receipts - - - 131 8 10 — 626 15 10 Dr. balance - - - 103 1 7 234 10 5 „ Townsend scholarships - - - - 626 15 10 £4,106 7 6 £4,106 7 6 The Bursar in Account with Pembroke College, Oxford, January 1, 1877, to December 31, 1877. Dr. To rent receipts „ King Charles’ benefaction ,, Tiddington estate ., Dr. RadclifFe’s benefaction Mr. Phipps’ do. „ Kodborne estate Entrance and graduation fees College charges : Dues - - - Room rent Janitor and messenger - Profits in kitchen and buttery „ grocery - Discounts, &c. Management of Trust Funds Repair of close scholars’ rooms Mulcts ... Compositions for college dues 1, The Consolidated Fiend. ck. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s- d. £ s. d. - - - 2,571 3 0 By the Master, Fellows, and Scholars - 3,327 1/ 7 - 69 18 2 By allowance in lieu of rooms - - - 35 0 0 - 12 12 1 College officers - - - 260 0 0 - 7 2 8 Porters - . - - 130 0 0 - 40 0 0 Common room man - 41 2 0 - 502 3 1 171 2 0 631 16 0 Fixed charges on lands - - - 8 12 - - - 370 0 0 Subscriptions, &c. - - - - 28 14 0 Domus battels and common room account - 71 11 7 - 614 15 6 Insurance and licenses - - - 25 17 6 - 624 10 6 Wallingford and Warborough rates - - 41 18 4 - 63 7 4 Gas ... - 81 14 1 - 1,302 13 4 Water - . - - 12 17 6 54 12 11 Local Board rate - - 130 4 0 - 36 17 4 224 15 7 - 31 13 7 Prize books - - - 10 0 0 ^ 123 3 10 Library fund - - - 30 0 0 - 43 9 11 Tradesmen’s bills - - - - 271 14 1 - 18 4 0 Bursar’s expenses, postage, &c. - - 15 12 6 61 13 11 Examining for fellowship - - - - 30 0 0 - - - 4 12 6 Sundry expenses - - - - 9 5 6 - - - 26 14 8 Balance to credit of Estate and Repai r fund - 530 3 10 £5,091 17 3 £5,091 17 3 Q 6223, T 82 2. The Estate and Repair Funid. £ s. d. : £ s. d. To balance from 1876 _ - 961 3 2 1 Repairs at Binfield, &c. - - - 142 11 2 „ balance of Consolidated fund, 1877 - - 530 3 10 ‘ New closets, and other repairs to college - 196 12 6 „ Mr. Phipps’ benefaction - - 650 9 7 1 Law and agency - - - - - 10 10 0 i Balance to next account - - - 1,792 2 11 £2,141 16 7 £2,141 16 7 Dii. Trust Funds. Cr. £ A. d. £ A. Cog c bo & ^ gH o > . . c3 "».* r* O r-H g lO r- ® CO C« . o ^ o c ^ g 1> fl _ » o 00 rs' ■ o IQ oo CO k; ^ ^ 3 (> O X tu- , O g' r- S .E O OJ o o CO § d *o5|^ ^ :: o c ci C V-. ci . •g 60 a '.;=: CO o . 00 CO ' 5§ cr5 GO 00 rH g o 2 d > . _ o CO S r— X. GO [3 Ci (M "S O c - l~ .2 aJ '--•i 5 O _M ^ ^ ni fli § O V) ^ 53 2 -*j O S ^ 3 3 3 O O CO r- O ' 9 Ph ' 60 ’ 1 > 0 S .2 1 g o CO ci ci P3 O o y S| CO ^ jn' t- ^ ^ o o o 5 _ be bC^ O g g T3 S S G <-*s ^ OT • i.is So -+M CO !> a ‘o §o^ §C!^ ® ^ fq to ^ - O g 'bcjHn tE O -O P^S o a> !<5 ^.2 2 '2 'e e3 pi ^ o GO GO - CO ^ l>* •sGO CO 23 O o CO o to ci 2 ci O o ^ O CO cq :»«2 i 00 o . . ^ !D 2 a; JE E3 (h tii • £ j o O ^ c3 cw o oJ -e .El (1 5£) -4-S O — ' !>.» g 2 00 >* S r: ^ o — • ci ^ Q-J c/2 Oi « rH O 6 C 3 ci £s o 33 ^ ci tcoo .s ^ 3 3 'o ’•? o> ^ w (M QJ '' to' ci r D Oj ;- «5 ^ O/ O) fit -a oo 2 (C o 33 Ph ci 9 «E Ph o g O Q |oJ *-2 J §Q 0 -§§ t« E bO E S . be O > 2 5 gi-EsP a 2 ^ • *> Ci '**«•» j_T o a O QI (M f., >§ Ci sh o s^ o E as ^ a tn •» E — Q Q f. . 'boW , lU ' Ph_ a g aj O > HE 3 o 2 § r3 33 2 ^ HOK 3 CU Cf G^ P O ' ^ 3i o X 33 M Ci 0 P4-H ^ z 1 ® •r" CO s 2 >pl 2 ; oa CO CO I i-H 1-H 0-1 ' GO a-i 00 j ” ad P an p: a K -S Uipp ^ a o w H H a w „ w m M S WO w >5 M la IH M a a o geo 5 K H a go S5 tn a a t/3 r. < K M O PPO « PS a K O « as o , z H § K H H 00 H M S S « H 89 II. Tenure of Fellowships. 1. Held for life. 2. Held for a term of years. 3. Held ou condition of taking Holy Orders. 4. Held on any special conditions. 5. How vacated. UNIVERSITY BALLIOL - MERTON EXETER ORIEL - QUEEN’S NEW - LINCOLN - 1. None except after 20 years’ service as Prselector, Tutor, Bursar, or Chaplain. 2. For eight years exclusive of time spent in service of the College. 3. Two at least must be in Holy Orders. 4. After 10 years’ service held for a period from election equal to twice the length of service. 5. Vacated by (1), marriage within five years of election ; (2), living 400Z. ; (3), property 500Z. 1. None. 2. For seven years, exclusive of time up to three years spent on. educational or Bursar’s work. 3. Two at least ; or three, if tlie Master be a layman. 4. After three years spent on educational work, a Fellow may be placed on the Tutorial List for 20 years, and may be reappointed for further terms of 10 years. Half the Tutorial Fellows (with leave of Master and Fellows) may marry. 5. Vacated (1) by marriage without leave, and (2), customarily by taking a College living. 1. Seventeen. 2. Three held by College Officers for periods of 10 years, but re-eligible ; not, however, beyond 30 years in all. 3. None. 4. One held by a Professor. 5. Seventeen vacated by (1), marriage ; (2), living 300Z. ; (3), property 5001. Three, by College Officers on ceasing to hold office. Two, tenure limited by Commissioners. 1. None for life unless in Holy Orders at the end of 15 years from election (with special exceptions) ; but see Nos. 3 and 4 infra. 2. One for five years. 3. All must be in Holy Orders within 15 years from the day of election (with certain exceptions) ; but a layman, if Tutor at end of 15 years from election, remains Fellow so long as Tutor; and after 10 years as Tutor need not take Holy Orders, but remains for life. 4. One after seven years’ service as Tutor remains for life. And one ceases after eight years, unless at end of that time on Educational Staff. 5. Vacated as usual. 1. Twelve. 2 . 3. Five must be in Holy Orders. 4. Principal of St. Mary Hall, Regius Professor of Modern History, two Tutors, one Lecturer, during Office. 5. Twelve vacated by (1), marriage ; (2), living of 300f ; property equal to twice value of Fellowship. 1. All. 2 . 3. Nine out of eighteen must either be in Holy Orders, or have declared their in- tention of taking Holy Orders. Of the four now suspended two are lay and two clerical. 4. 5. Vacated by (1), marriage; (2), living of 300f ; (3), property 5001. 1. Twenty- two for life. 2 . 3. None. 4. 5. Twenty-two vacated as usual ; four held by Tutors or Lecturers ; two, tenure limited by Commissioners. 1. Five for life. 2. Two elected to serve as Tutors for seven years. 3. All but two to take Holy Orders in 10 years after admission. 4. Two, being Vicars of All Saints’ and St. Michael’s, hold Fellowships after marriage, so long as they hold those livings. 5. Five vacated as usual. Q 6223. M 90 ALL SOULS’ MAGDALEN - BRASENOSE- CORPUS CHRISTI. CHRIST CHURCH. TRINITY ST. JOHN’S - JESUS - WADHAM - PEMBROKE - WORCESTER 1. All. 2 . 3. None. 4. The two Chichele Professors if appointed Fellows hold Fellowships only so long as Professors. 5. All (except Professor Fellowships) vacated by (1), marriage ; or (2), living 300Z. 1. All. 2 . 3. Two-thirds. 4. 5. Vacated as usual. 1. Seven. 2. One so long as he serves the College. 3. Six out of fifteen ; [but at present five are suspended, so four out of ten]. 4. One by special clause exempted from conditions as to marriage and property. 5. Eight vacated by (1), marriage ; (2), property. One tenure limited by Commissioners. 1. All. 2 . 3. Six out of eighteen. The two Professor Fellowships arc non-clerical. 4. The Professors of Latin and of Jurisprudence cease to be Fellows when no longer Professors. 5. Eighteen vacated by (1), marriage ; (2), holding a College living. 1. All. 2 . 3. Nineteen must be in Priest’s Orders within four years of time when they are of standing for M.A. 4. All bound to reside five years from election, and to obey any call to serve the House within that period. The Treasurer and three Lee’s Readers may marry and hold property above 500^. by leave of Dean and two-thirds of Governing Body. 5. All (except those in paragraph 4) vacated as usual. 1. All. 2 . 3. Two must take Holy Orders within two years from 4th July 1870 and 1877. 4. 5. AU vacated as usual. 1. Twenty-four (to be reduced by the Ordinance to eighteen). 2. Four Fereday, for 14 years on condition of celibacy. 3. Two out of three obliged to take Holy Orders. 4. 5. Twenty -four (or eighteen) vacated as usual. 1. All. 2 . 3. Four may be laymen. 4. Six to be natives of Wales or Monmouthshire; two must speak Welsh. 5. All vacated by (1), marriage ; (2), living 300^. ; (3.), property 300Z. 1. All. 2 . 3. None. 4. 5. All vacated by (1), marriage (certain cases excepted); (2), living 300^.; (3), property 400i. 1. All. 2 . 3. If whole number of Fellows be eight, then four must be in Holy Orders ; If whole number of Fellows be from 9 to 11 inclusive, then five must be in Holy Orders ; If whole number of Fellows be from 12 to 14 inclusive, then six must be in Holy Orders ; Exclusive of the two Sheppard FeUows in each case. 4. Of the two Sheppard Fellow.'^, one must l)e colled to the Bar, the other must proceed to D.M. 5. All vacated as usual, except one held by a Universit}^ Professor. 1. All. 2 . 3. Nine ; one-third of the whole number are Lay Fellowships. 4. Four Fellowships at present on foundation of Mrs. Sarah Eaton, only for sons of English Clergymen whose income is below 150^. 5. All vacated by (1), marriage (with exceptions) ; (2), living 300?. ; (3), property 400 /. 91 No. 9. University of Oxford Commission, 5, Craig’s Court, London, S.W., Sir, Marcli, 1878. I AM desired by Lord Selborne to request that you will bave tbe goodness to fill up the enclosed Form (No. 9 a.) and to return the same to me at your earliest convenience. I am, &c. T. F. DALLIN, The of Secretary. College, Oxford. Answers to Circular No. 9. Returns of Persons holding any of the following Offices in the Year 1878 ; viz., Vice-gerent, Censor; Tutor, Prselector, Lecturer; Treasurer, Bursar; Dean, Librarian, and Chaplain ; and of the Annual Stipend or Value of each Office. UNIVERSITY COLLEGE. I. Name of Office. II. Holder of Office. III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV. Annual Stipend or Value of Office. £ s. d. 1 Dean - _ - Rev. J. F. Bright - Fellow - 90 0 0 2 Dean of Degrees - C. J. Faulkner] - - Ditto - 35 0 0 3 Bursar of Estates Ditto - Ditto - 185 0 0 4 House Bursar A. Dendy - Ditto . 112 0 0 5 Registrar C. J. Faulkner - Ditto - 30 0 0 6 Librarian F. H. Peters - Ditto - 40 0 0 7 Dean of the Hall - B. Bosanquet - Ditto - 40 0 0 8 Chaplain] The Master - Not a Fellow 42 0 0 9 Ditto - - - Rev. .1. F. Bright - Fellow - 42 0 0 10 Prelector of Theology - A. S. Chavasse - - Ditto - 40 0 o' 11 „ Latin S. H. Butcher - Ditto - 40 0 0 12 „ Mathematics C. .1. Faulkner - - Ditto _ 40 0 0 13 „ Greel: F. H. Peters - Ditto - 40 0 0 > 14 ,, Philosophy- B. Bosanquet - Ditto - 40 0 0 15 ,, ’Jurisprudence A. Dendy - Ditto 40 0 0 16 „ History Tutor, Mathematics, and Natural Science. Rev. J. F. Bright - Ditto - 40 0 0 17 C. J. Faulkner - - Ditto - 345 0 o' 18 „ Moderations, Clas- sics. A. S. Chavasse - - Ditto 345 0 0 19 „ Liter® humaniores B. Bosanquet - Ditto - 345 0 0 20 „ .Jurisprudence A. Dendy "IT Ditto - 260 0 0 21 „ Modern History - Rev. J. F. Bright - Ditto - 260 0 0 22 Lecturer, Moderations (Classical). The Master - Not a Fellow 250 0 O' 23 ,, Liter® humani- ores. F. H. Peters - Fellow - 170 0 0 24 „ in Classics (Mo- derations). S. H. Butcher “ Ditto - 210 0 - 25 „ in Divinity (Pass). Ditto - " Ditto - 50 0 0 26 „ Moderations (Pass). A. K. Connel Not a Fellow 120 0 OJ V. Remarks. The stipend varies slightly. The stipend varies slightly. The stipends of these seven educational offices are paid out of the general funds of the College. The offices are always held by tutors or lecturers. These stipends are paid out of the Tutorial Fund, and are exclusive of the sti- pends attached to the above-mentioned prffilec- torships. These stipends are paid out of the Tutorial Fund, and are exclusive of the pr®- lectorship stipend which is enjoyed by several of these officers. 1. The educational stipends were fixed at a College meeting held on 27th March for the year 20th March 1878 to 20th March 1879. They are identical with those assigned for the same duties to the same persons for the previous year, with the exception of the payment of 50/. (No. 25) to a lecturer in divinity, which is made for the first time. 2. The tutors have in each case the superintendence of those undergraduates who arc reading in the ITonoiu: schools enumerated in Nos. 17-21, column 1. They are assisted by the lecturers enumerated in Nos. 22-26. (Signed) G. G. BRADIjEY, Master. M 2 92 BALLIOL COLLEGE. I. Name of Office. II. Holder of Office. III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV. Annual Stipend or Value of Office. V. Eemarks. Classical Tutor - £ s. d. 1 Straehan-Davidson, James Leigh. Fellow 333 6 8 (including Fel- lowship.) 2 Hebrew Lecturer Cheyne, Kev. Thos. Kelly Ditto - 80 0 0 (and Fellow- ship.) 3 Classical Tutor - Nettlesliip, Eichard Lewis Ditto - 250 0 0 (and Fellow- ship.) 4 Ditto - Tatton, Kobert Gray Tutorial Fellow - 300 0 0 (including Fel- lowship.) ■ 5 Lecturer - Forbes, VV ilbam Henry - Fellow 125 0 0 (and Fellow- ship.) G Classical Tutor - Abbott, Evelyn - Tutorial Fellow - 500 0 0 (including Fel- lowship.) 7 Lectiwer - Bradley, Andrew Cecil - Fellow 150 0 0 (and Fellow- ship.) 8 Classical Tutor - Paravicini, Francis de Not on Foundation (Formerly Senior Student of Christ Church.) 380 0 0 9 Mathematical Tutor Kussell, John Wesley Not on Foundation (Fellow of Merton College.) 250 0 0 10 Modern History Tutor Bright, Eev. J. F. Not on Foundation (Fellow of Univer- sity College.) 150 0 0 11 Natural Science Tutor Fisher, W. W. - Not on Foundation (Formerly Fellow of Corpus Ch. Coll.) 100 0 0 12 Law Tutor Anson, Sir W. K., Bart. - Not on Foundation (Fellow of All Souls.) 100 0 0 13 Modern History Tutor Buchanan, J. E. - Not on Foundation (Fellow of All Souls.) 250 0 0 14 Chaplain - Stubbs, Eev. W. - Honorary Fellow - (Fellow of Oriel College.) 150 0 0 15 Senior Dean • Straehan-Davidson, J ames Leigh. Fellow 50 0 0 16 Junior Dean - Nettlesliip, Eichard Lewis Ditto - 50 0 0 — 17 Librarian - Cheyne, Eev. T. Kelly - Ditto - 25 0 0 18 Senior Bursar - Ilbert, Courtenay Peregrine (Late Fellow) 125 0 0 — 19 Junior Bursar Paravicini, Francis de Formerly Senior Student of Christ Church. 125 0 0 (Signed) B. JOWETT, Master. MERTON COLLEGE. 1 Subwarden Eobert .Tames Wilson Yes & s. d. 44 6 0 9 Principal of Postmasters • Edmund Arbuthnott Knox Ditto - - 50 0 0 — 3 Tutor William Wallace - Ditto - - 379 0 0 4 Ditto - - - Edmund Arbuthnott Knox Ditto (About.) 332 0 0 These three sums and 150f. of Mr. Esson’s stipend 5 Ditto - - - George Eodney Scott Ditto . (About.) 285 0 0 ' are paid wholly by the undergraduates. 6 Ditto (Mathematical)- William Esson - Ditto . (About.) 300 0 0 J 1 50/. of this sum is paid from 7 Lecturer - - - Francis Herbert Bradley - Ditto 150 0 0 corporate funds. 8 Ditto - - - WiUiam H. Pike - No - - 150 0 0 — 9 Estates Bursar - Stephen Edwardes Yes - - 200 0 0 — 10 Domestic Bursar - Kobert James Wilson Ditto - _ 100 0 0 — 11 Senior Dean George Noel Freeling Ditto - - 15 0 0 — 12 .lunior Dean Edmund Arbuthnott Knox Ditto (and a fee of If. from each per- son presented for a degree.) 15 0 0 13 Librarian William Wallace - Ditto - - 50 0 0 — 14 Senior Chaplain - Joseph Skipper Treacher No - 55 0 0 — 93 Merton College — continued. I. Name of Office. II. Holder of Office. III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV. Annual Stipend or Value of Office. V. Remarks. 15 Junior Chaplain - George Noel Freeling Yes £ s. d» 50 0 0 16 Knightley's Lecturer Robert James Wilson Ditto 10 0 0 From endowment. 17 (Divinity). College Preacher Edmund Arbuthnott Knox Ditto 15 0 0 18 Ditto - . - Robert James Wilson Ditto 15 0 0 — 19 Auditor - - - William Esson - Ditto 5 0 0 — 20 Ditto - - - John Wesley Russell Ditto 5 0 0 — (Signed) S. EDWARDES, Bursar. EXETER COLLEGE. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 (Office of Vice-gerent or) Sub-rectorship. Censor — No such Officer. Tutorship Ditto - - - Ditto - - - Ditto - - - Ditto - - - Mathematical Lectureship Natural Science Lecture- ship. Rev. William Ince Rev. William Ince Rev. Charles William Boase Rev. William Walrond Jackson. Ingram Bywater - Rev. Henry Fanshawe Tozer. Charles James Coverly Price. Edwin Ray Lankester Fellow Fellow Ditto - Ditto - Ditto - Not a Fellow Fellow Ditto - 10 11 12 13 14 1.5 Classical Lectureship Ditto - Lectureship in Juris- prudence. Hebrew Lectureship Treasurer — No such Officer. (Senior) Bursarship Rev. Charles Edward Hammond. Henry Francis Pelham - John Charles Wilson Rev. William Walrond Jackson. Rev, Charles Edward Hammond. Not a Fellow Ditto - Ditto - Fellow Not a Fellow 16 (Junior) Bursarship 1 7 Dean, office of 18 Librarianship 1 9 Chaplaincy Rev. Thomas Henry Sheppard. Paul Ferdinand Willert - - Rev. Charles William Boase - Rev. Thomas Henry Sheppard. Fellow Ditto - Ditto - Ditto - £ s. d. 150 0 0 400 0 0 400 0 0 400 0 0 400 0 0 400 0 0 350 0 0 200 0 0 150 0 0 Elected Fellow also on the special condition of lectur- ing on natural science sub- jects for a given number of years. 350 0 0 _ 200 0 0 _ 12 0 0 Usually held with 'a Tutor- ship or other Lectureship. 150 0 0 50 0 0 The Rector is really external Bursar, receiving the rents and managing the estates, in which duty he has assistance from the Junior Bursar. The stipend the Rector receives may be considered in part as pay- ment for the discharge of this duty. The Rector also discharges the duties of Treasurer. 60 0 0 60 0 0 — Has no special salary as Chaplain, but holds a Chaplain Fellowship, and receives divi- dends, share and share ahke, with the other Fellows, which dividends have varied for the last five years from 270/. to about 300/. per annum. (Signed) J. P. LIGHTFOOT, Rector. ORIEL COLLEGE. £ s. d. Minimum value, 1 Dean . _ . The Rev. A. G. Butler - Fellow 100 0 0 Value depends on number of Minimum value, resident undergraduates. 2 Sub-Dean and Librarian - John Cook Wilson Ditto - 50 0 0 Depends cn degree fees re- 3 Senior Treasurer - Charles Lancelot Shad well Ditto 150 0 0 ceivel. (About.) Present value. " 4 Chaplain Rev. A. G. Butler Ditto - 12 10 0 Present value. The resident Fellows who are 5 Ditto - Rev. W. Stubbs - Ditto - 12 10 0 in Holy Orders share the Present value. duty and divide the sum of 6 Ditto - . - Rev. J. R. King - Ditto - 12 10 0 50/. amongst them. Present value. 7 Ditto - • . Rev. F. H, Hall - Ditto - 12 10 0 M 3 94 Oriel College — continued. I. Name of Office. 11. Holder of Office. ’ III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV Annual Stipend or Value of Office. V. Remarks. 8 Tutor - - - The Rev. A. G. Butler - Fellow £ s. d. 9 Ditto - - - The Rev. F. H. Hall Ditto - - 200 0 0 — 16 Ditto - - - The Rev. J. R. King Ditto - - — — 11 Ditto - - - John Cook Wilson Ditto - - — — 12 Lecturer in Classics *The Rev. J. R. King Fellow - 200 0 0 — 13 Ditto - - - *The Rev. William Walter Not a Fellow - 200 0 0 _ 14 Ditto - - - Merry. *The Rev. A. G. Butler - Fellow 100 0 0 15 Lecturer in Philosophy - *John Cook Wilson Ditto - - 210 0 0 — 16 „ Logic *Nathan Bodington Not a Fellow - 150 0 0 — 17 „ History ‘George Earlam Thorley - Ditto - - 100 0 0 — 18 Ditto - - - *William Warde Fowler - Ditto - - 100 0 0 — 19 Ditto - - - *The Rev. George William Ditto - - 150 0 0 — 20 Lecturer in Jurisprudence Kitchen. *Edward Arthur Whittuck Ditto - . 100 0 0 21 „ Mathematics *The Rev. Robert Henry Ditto - - 135 0 0 — 22 Ditto- Charsley. John Wesley Russell Ditto - The value of th is office varies according to the 23 Junior Treasurer Rev. F. H. Hall - Fellow number unde 120 0 0 r tuition ; maximum 50/. i 24 Eveleigh Censorship The Rev. A. G. Butler - Ditto - - 44 8 10 The Eveleigh Censor gives L25 Bosworth Lectureship The Rev. J. R. King Ditto - 12 10 0 theological lectures in two of the academical terms. The Bosworth lecturer de- livers a course of theolo- gical lectures in the Easter term of each year. * The persons marked thus (*) are lecturers in common to Oriel and Lincoln Colleges ; they are appointed by a joint Board composed of representatives of the two Colleges, and are paid out of a joint fund, to which Oriel and Lincoln contribute 665/. and 750/. respectively. (Signed) F. H, HALL, Junior Treasurer. QUEEN’S COLLEGE. 1 |Tutorship A. H. Sayce Fellow 2 Ditto - - - T. H. Grose Ditto - 3 Ditto - - - R. L. Clarke Ditto - 4 Prselectorship of Greek and Latin. T. F. Dallin Late Fellow and Tutor. 51 Mathematical Lectureship E. B. Elliott Fellow History Lectureship G. W. Kitchin - Not a Fellow ; late Student of Ch. Ch. 7’, Law Lectureship J. C. AVilson Not a Fellow 8 Various Lectures Various - - - Two were Fellow s 9, Lecturer . - - Principal of St. Edmund Hall. Late Fellow £ s. d. 306 7 6 306 7 6 306 7 6 300 0 0 "I Variable. This was the value during the year >■ 1876-77, i.e., Michaelmas term 1876 and Lent and J Easter terms 1877. Fixed annual value. 200 0 0 Ditto. 75 0 0 The value varies with the nuniberofstudents. These figures give the sums paid 75 0 0 J in the year 1876-77. 229 4 0 The sum so paid in 1876-77. In consideration of the Principal’s Lectures, Members of the Hall are admitted to all the College Lectures. ■{v.B. — Under the sanction of the Tutors Meeting, a Tutor may transfer one of his own Lectures to a College Lecturer, and a stated fee is withdrawn from that Tutor’s stipend and paid to the J^ecturer. Hence the net income of the Tutors in 1876-77 was less than the sum stated above, and the payment to the “ Various Lecturers” was more. A return of these details will be furnished, if required. 10 Senior Bursar J.R.Magrath, Pro-Provost Fellow 200 0 0 Fixed f The holders of 11 Junior Bursar B. Armstrong Ditto - 150 0 0 Fixed these offices 12 Dean T. H. Grose Ditto - 112 15 0 V ariable have themselves in 1876-77. to pay all expenses, sta- tionery, stamps, &c. 13 Librarian R. L. Clarke Ditto - 50 0 0 Fixed. 14 Senior Chaplain - S. Hope - - - Not a Fellow 112 10 0 Ditto. 15 Junior Chaplain - J. R. Magrath - Fellow 37 10 0 Ditto. (Signed) THOS. H. GROSE, Dean, 95 NEW COLLEGE. I. Name of Office. II. Holder of Office. III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV. Annual Stipend or Value of Office. V. Remarks. 1 Sub- Warden 1 W. L. Courtney - Yes & 40 5. 0 d. 0 In addition to his stipend, the 2 Senior Bursar Alfred Kobinson - Ditto 400 0 0 Sub- Warden has an allow- ance of 2s. 6d. a day during residence. In addition to their stipends the Bursars, Deans, Li- brarian, and Precentor 3 .Junior Bursar _ Rev. T. L. Papillon _ Ditto - 50 0 0 have an allowance of 2s. a 4 Senior Dean _ _ Rev. W. A. Spooner Ditto • 30 0 0 1 day each during residence. 5 Junior Dean _ _ A. 0- Prickard - _ Ditto _ 30 0 0^ The Senior Bursar also 6 Dean of Arts _ _ Rev. H. B. George Ditto - 55 0 0 receives an exhibition of 7 Librarian _ S. R. Driver _ Ditto _ 30 0 0 1 15s. from the Woodward 8 Precentor _ C. E. Bickmore _ Ditto _ 25 0 0 j Trust Funrf, and the 9 Tutor Rev. W. A. Spooner Ditto 400 0 L 0 Librarian of 1?. from the same Fund. 10 Ditto _ A. 0. Prickard - - Ditto - 300 0 0 — 11 Ditto _ S. R. Driver _ Ditto _ 270 0 0 Including 20/. for attendance 12 Lecturer - Rev. H. B. George Ditto 250 0 0 at the Roll Call. In addition to their Lecture- 13 Ditto Alfred Robinson - Ditto 120 0 0 ships in New College, some of the Lecturers hold Lectureships in other Colleges. 14 Ditto _ Rev. T. L. Papillon Ditto - 290 0 0 Including 40/. for work as 15 Ditto W. L. Courtney - Ditto 250 0 0 Secretary to the Tuition Committee. 16 Ditto - - C. E. Bickmore - - Ditto - 150 0 0 — 17 Ditto _ _ E. A. Whittuck - - No - 120 0 0 — 18 Ditto - - Rev. J. F. Bright - Ditto - 100 0 0 — 19 Ditto - - J. Bain - - Ditto - 150 0 0 — 20 Ditto - - A. C. Champneys - Ditto - 150 0 0 — 21 Chaplain - - Rev. W. D. Macray - Ditto - 90 0 0 — 22 Ditto - - Rev. C. H. Grundy - Ditto - 100 0 0 — 23 Ditto " “ Rev. E. F. Letts - “ Ditto 100 0 0 ““ (Signed) ALFRED ROBINSON, Senior Bursar. LINCOLN COLLEGE. £ 5 . d. 1 Sub-Rector - - Thomas Fowler - Yes - - 40 0 0 Of this stipend 15/. is from Domus, 25/. from Trust funds. 2 Tutor - - William Warde Fowler - Yes - - 310 0 0 I think that these payments to Messrs. Warde Fowler, 3 Tutor - - Nathan Bodington Yes “ 300 0 0 Bodington, and Merry are in the Oriel Comhination 4 Lecturer - " " William Walter Merry Yes “ - 305 0 0 Scheme. Several other Lecturers or Tutors iu a combination with Oriel College. The stipends paid by Oriel are unknown to me. I pay out of the Joint Fund as follows : 5 To a Lecturer G. W. Kitchin - No - - 150 0 0 — 6 To a Lecturer G. E. Thorley - No - - 100 0 0 — 7 Lecturer - W. C. Sidgwick - No - - Six guineas a term. This is not, I think, in the Oriel Combination Scheme 8 Bursar ... Washbourne West Yes - - 150 0 0 Of this 1 10/. is from Domus, 40/. from Trust funds. 9 Dean for Degrees Washbournc West Yes A guinea for ea had the office give an aver 25 or 24 guin ch presentation, but as I have for two years only I cannot age ; I hope it may average eas. (Signed) W. WEST, Bursar. M 4 96 ALL SOULS COLLEGE. I. Name of Office. II. Holder of Office. III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV. Annual Stipend or Value of Office. V. Remarks. 1 Sub-W arden Edward Ridley - Fellow £ s. (i. 50 0 0 A fresh Sub-Warden is 2 Estates Bursar - Francis Compton Ditto - 200 0 0 elected every two years. Elected annually, and re- 3 Domestic Bursar Arthur F. Stopford Ditto - and travelling expenses. 75 0 0 eligible. Ditto. 4 Dean - Robert Mowbray Ditto - 10 0 0 Ditto, 5 Ditto Henry 0. Wakeman Ditto - 10 0 0 Ditto. 6 Librarian William R. Anson Ditto - 50 0 0 Ditto. 7 Chaplain - - - John W. Nutt Formerly Fellow - 76 8 4 Appointed by Warden ; re- 8 Ditto Arthur H. Johnson Ditto - 76 8 4 movable by Warden and Fellows at a stated general meeting. Ditto. Tutoi '1 The four Pr®lcetor Lecturer - J * Bible clerks go to tutors a nd lecturers at othei 1 • Colleges for their tuition ; the average sum their tuition during the last five years (during which I have held office) has been 94/. a year. (Signed) A. F. STOPFORD, Domestic Bursar. MAGDALEN COLLEGE. 1 Vice-President - 2 Dean of Divinity 3 Senior Dean of Arts 4 Junior Dean of Arts 5 Senior Bursar 6 Junior Bursar 7 Ditto 8 Steward - - - 9 Senior Tutor (Classical) - 10 Tutor ^Classical) 11 Ditto 12 Ditto 13 Tutor (Theology) 14 „ (Natural Science) 15 „ (Math.) - 16 „ (Modern Hist.) - 17 ,, (Nat. Science) 18 Assistant Tutor (Math.) - 19 „ (Philosophy) 20 librarian 21 Chaplain 22 Ditto 23 Ditto 24 Ditto Kev. W. D. Allen Rev. John Kigaud Rev. H. R. Bramley C. Yule - J. E. Henderson - Rev. W. Moore - E. M. Miller E. Blagrave Rev. T. II. T. Hopkins - Rev. H. R. Bramley Rev. W. D. Allen T. H. Warren Rev. W. Lock C. Yule - W. Esson Sidney J. Owen - E. Chapman Rev. E. L. Balmer C. Parsons Rev. John Rigaud Rev. Compton Reade -'j Rev. L. K. Hilton - | Rev. W. H. L. Cogswell )• Rev. S. C. F. Angel- | Smith. J £ s. d. Fellow - 80 0 0 Ditto - - 20 0 0 Ditto - - 70 0 0 Ditto - 10 0 0 Ditto - - 300 0 0 Ditto - - 50 0 0 Ditto - _ 50 0 0 Not a Fellow - - 191 11 4 Fellow _ 350 0 0 Ditto - - 200 0 0 Ditto - 250 0 0 Probationer Fellow 250 0 0 Fellow _ 150 0 0 Ditto - 1.50 0 0 Not a Fellow - 250 0 0 Ditto - 100 0 0 Ditto - - 150 0 0 Ditto'! - - 100 0 0 Ditto - - 100 0 0 Fellow _ 20 0 0 Not Fellows ; being as Chaplains members of the Foundation. ■ ' 64 64 64 124 17 17 17 17 4 4 4 4 Exclusive of fees for pre- sentation to degrees. Exclusive of Commission on Collection of Rents. Has 100/. also placed at his disposal for assistance in final Honour Lectures in Liter® Humaniores. Paid to No. 19. Received from No. 11 (see remark). Including 60/. as Fellows Chaplain for chanting at surplice prayers. The office of Prmlector in this College is abolished. The old Prelectors’ places are filled by the Waynflete Professors, who are at present two in number and receive stipends of 600/. a j'ear. The schoolmaster, usher, and organist are officials of the College, but there seemed no place for them under the headings given ; I have, therefore, not made a return of their names or salaries. The question of the payment of tutors is being considered by the College ; the provision in many cases may be looked upon as simnly temporary. (Signed) WILLIAM DENNIS ALLEN, Vice-President. 97 BRASENOSE COLLEGE. I. Name of Office. II. Holder of Office. III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV. Annual Stipend or Value of Office. £ s. d. 1 Vice-Principal - Edward Tindal Turner - Yes 174 10 0* (About.) 2 Tutor - - ■ Walter Horatio Pater Ditto - 537 17 6 ' 3 Ditto •lohn Wordsworth No 558 12 0 4 Ditto Thomas Humphry Ward Ditto - 529 4 0 5 Ditto George Edmundsou Yes 400 0 0 6 Lecturer in Hebrew Edward Tindal Turner Ditto 40 0 0 7 „ Mathematics George Edmundson Ditto - 20 0 0 8 „ Classics, &c. Charles Augustus Whittuck Ditto - 240 0 0 9 „ Ditto Charles Buller Heberdcn Ditto - 165 0 0 10 „ Ditto Faleoncr Madan - Ditto - 165 0 0 11 „ Modern History Paul Ferdinand Willert - No 165 0 0 12 „ Law Alexander Chetwood Ditto - 105 0 0 Hamilton. 13 Senior Bursar Albert Watson - Yes 165 0 Of 14 Junior Bursar George Edmundson Ditto - 164 5 0 15 Dean - Walter Horatio Pater Ditto - 119 16 8 16 Junior Dean Charles Augustus Whittuck Ditto - 50 0 0 17 Librarian Falconer Madan - Ditto - 50 0 0 18 Hulme Lecturer in Divinity Edward Tindal Turner - Ditto - 105 0 0 19 Chaplain 20 0 0 to 1 30 0 0 V. Remarks. This is for 1877. The income of the three senior tutors varies accord- ing to the number of undergraduates in the col- lege, and the consequent number of pupils assigned by the principal to each tutor. I have given the amounts for 1877. The amount of Mr. Edmund- son’s stipend -was paid by a vote of the college on his appointment. It was the desire of the college that, saving existing in- terests, payments to the tutors should be made according to a fixed but graduated scale. This is an old statutable or customary payment. Ditto. Mr. Edmundscn is now remunerated for his mathematical work mainly by his stipend as tutor ; before he was tutor the mathematical lecturer or lecturers received 380/. a year in all. ySs fixed for 1878 by vote of the college. Ditto. 110/. has been voted for two terms. I have given the year’s stipend at the same rate. Mr. Willert is a Fellow of Exeter College, 70/. voted for two terms. See above. I have given the amount for 1877. The sum of 9/. IGs. Sd. con- sists of various old statu- table or customary pay- ments. See Returns B 2, B 15, and reply to letter C, paragraph 4, Vol. II., p. 609 of Report of Duke of Cleveland’s Commission. The lecturer is nominated by the Principal, and the sti- pend paid by the Ilulme trustees. A new scheme for the administration of the funds is under consi- deration. The duties of chaplain are discharged by such fellows of the college as may be ill holy orders, and the sum stated in the preceding column is divided amongst them. * Fixed 109/. 10s. ; variable 65/. (about), t Fixed 127/. 10s. ; variable 37/. 10s. (Signed) ALBERT WATSON, Senior Bursar. Q 6223. N 98 COEPUS CHEISTI COLLEGE. I. Name of Office. II. Holder of Office. III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV. Annual Stipend or Value of Office. V. Remarks. 1 Vice-President H. J. S. Smith - Fellow £ s. d. 50 0 0 2 Dean ... Charles Plummer Ditto - 100 0 0 — 3 Librarian Ditto Ditto - 19 10 3 — 4 Bursar - - - Thomas M. Crowder Not 400 0 0 — 5 Chaplain - Charles Plummer Fellow 75 0 0 — 6 Ditto Edward P. Barrow Not 75 0 0 — 7 Tutor - - - Henry Nettleship E'ellow 100 0 0 — 8 Ditto Thomas Case Not 450 0 0 9 Ditto William Little Fellow 330 0 0 — 10 Lecturer, Classical John S. Lockhart Not 200 0 0 — 11 „ Mathematical - William Esson - Ditto - 150 0 0 — 12 „ History Charles Plummer Fellow 100 0 0 — (Signed) THOMAS M. CROWDER, Bursar. CHRIST CHURCH. £ s. d. 1 Sub-Dean Rev, Dr. C. A. Heurtley - Canon - - 20 0 0 Exclusive of Canonry. 2 Censor Theologim Vacant - - - - - - 10 0 0 Vacant. 3 Censor Moral Philosop hy Rev. II. Salwey - Student - - 300 0 0 Exclusive of tudentship. 4 C:nsor Natin-a. Fh losophy Rev. E. F. Sampson Ditto - - 300 0 0 Ditto. 5 Treasurer Rev. R. G. Faussett Ditto - - 400 0 0 Ditto. 6 Steward - - - Ditto Ditto ■■ - 300 .0 0 Ditto. 7 Librarian Rev. T. V. Bayne Ditto - - 60 0 0 Ditto. 8 1st Tutor (Classical) Rev. II . Salwey - Ditto - - 405 0 0 Ditto. 9 2nd ditto ditto Mr. A. C. Madan Ditto - - 405 0 0 Ditto. 10 3rd ditto ditto Mr. R. W. Macan Ditto - - *405 0 0 Ditto. 11 4th ditto ditto Rev. F. Paget Ditto - - *405 0 0 Ditto. 12 5th ditto ditto Mr. R. Shute Ditto - - 246 0 0 Ditto. 13 6th ditto ditto Rev. W. Warner Ditto - - t246 0 0 Ditto. 14 7 th ditto ditto Vacant - - - Ditto - - 150 0 0 Ditto. 15 8th ditto ditto Ditto Ditto - - 150 0 0 Ditto. 16 Mathematical Tutor Rev. E. F. Sampson Ditto - - 300 0 0 Ditto. 17 Theological Tutor Rev. H. S. Holland Ditto - - 300 0 0 Ditto. 18 Historical Tutor - Mr. S. J. Owen - Not a Student - 600 0 0 — 19 Reader in Chemistry (is also a Tutor). Mr. A. G. V. Harcourt - Student - - 700 0 0 Inclusive of Studentship. 20 Reader in Anatomy Mr. J. B. Thompson Ditto - - 650 0 These sums are inclusive of 21 Reader in Physies Mr. R. E. Baynes Ditto - - 450 0 0 J Studentship. 22 Mathematical Lecturer - Rev. C. L. Dodgson Ditto - - 300 0 0 Exclusive of Studentship. 23 Historical Lecturer Rev. G. W. Kitehin Not a Student - 240 0 0 — 24 Law Lecturer Mr. F. Y. Powell Ditto - - 201 0 0 — 25 Classical Lecturer Mr. J. A. Stewart Ditto - - 246 0 0 — 26 Ditto Mr. H. Nettleship Ditto - - 400 0 0 — 27 Ditto Mr. W. II. Payne Smith Student - - - - No salary as such beyond the Studentship of 300/. a year. 28 Clhaplains There are six Chaplains, appointed and paid by the Cathedral Body, not by the College. * Not having as yet completed five years service receive only 246/. each, f Not having as yet completed two years service receives 150/. N.B. — Students not doing work for the College receive as such only 200/. a year. (Signed) R. GODFREY FAUSSETT, Treasurer. 99 TRINITY COLLEGE. I. Name of Office. II. Holder of Office. III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV. Annual Stipend or Value- of Office. V. Remarks. £ s. (1. 1 Vice-President - Rev. T. Short Fellow . Stipend relinquished for many 2 Tutor - - - Rev. H. G. Woods Ditto - 410 4 6 years. 3 Ditto - - - Mr. R. W. Raper Ditto - 410 4 6 4 Lecturer - - - Mr. Robinson Ellis Ditto - 120 0 0 5 Ditto - - - Mr. M. II. Green Ditto 60 10 0 6 Ditto - - - Rev. C. Gore Ditto - 160 0 0 7 Ditto - - - Mr. A. Robertson Ditto - 80 0 0 8 Ditto- Mr. F. T. Richards Late Fellow 330 0 0 9 Ditto - - - Mr. W. C. Sidgwick Late Fellow of Merton. 26 5 0 10 Lecturer in Modern Historj' Rev. A, II. Johnson Late Fellow of All Souls., 120 0 0 11 Lecturer in Law - Sir W. R. Anson Fellow of All Souls 60 0 0 12 Ditto - - - Mr. G. Wood - Fellow of Pembroke 40 0 0 13 MillardLecturer inPhysics Mr. L. Fletcher - Fellow of Univer- sity College. 197 10 0 2,014 14 0 Income tax deducted. The Millard Lecturer’s sti- pend is paid from the divi- dends of Government Stock purchased from the pro- ceeds of the legacy of Mr. Thos. Millard, left to the 14 Paid for Lectures of the 5 Colleges in combination with Trinity 114 0 0 College in order “to ad- 15 Paid for fees in the University Laboratory, &c. - 84 7 0 “ vance Mathematical and 16 Paid for other assistance to undergraduates - 18 3 0 “ general science in the “ College.” 17 Bursar - - - Rev II. G. Woods Fellow 155 13 4 18 Dean - - - Mr. R. W. Raper Ditto - 50 0 0 And fees on presenting to 19 Librarian Mr. M. H. Green Ditto - 10 0 0 B.A. and M.A. degrees. 20 Chaplains Rev. H- G. Woods and Rev. C. Gore. Ditto 27 0 0 It is hoped that this Return for the year ending 29th September 1877 will meet the objects of the Commissioners. That year is the nearest complete year to the year 1878, and is the latest for which the particulars required could be given. (Signed) S. W. WAYTE, President. ST. JOHN’S COLLEGE. 1 2 3 4 .5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 \5 16 17 18 19 20 Vice-President - Dean of Divinit}' Dean of Laws Dean of Arts Ditto - - - Bursar (Senior) - „ (Junior) - Librarian Reader (Senior), Chapel - „ (Junior) „ d r Tutors and Lecturers Dr. C. A. S. Austin Rev. F. E. Warren Dr. C. E. Appleton Rev. L. L. Sharpe R. H. M. Bosanquet, M.A. Dr. A. R. Adams Rev. H. J. Bidder T. S. Omond, M.A. Rev. H. Deane - „ J. W. Stanbridge - „ II. Deane - ,, J. W. Stanbridge - R. H. M. Bosanquet, M.A. Rev. H. J. Bidder „ R. Ewing „ W. Moore - „ A. H. .Johnson J. C. Wilson, M.A. Rev. A. .1. Wilson A. J. M. Bell, M.A. Fellow Ditto - Ditto - Ditto - Ditto - Ditto - Ditto - Ditto Ditto - Ditto [■Fellows -d Non-Fellows - J & 28 13 13 5 28 15 28 15 300 10 28 98 60 60 500 1,705 <1. d. 18 10 College payment 4 0 Ditto. 8 4 Ditto. 6 8 Entrance fees. 15 0 College payment. 5 0 Degree fees. 15 0 College payment. 5 0 Degree fees. 0 0 College payment. 0 0 Ditto. 16 8 Ditto. 7 1 Dr. Bliss’s bequest. 0 0 College payment. 0 0 Ditto. 0 0 College payment. 16 0 Tutorage fees. (Signed) T. S. OMOND, Bursar. Sir, 5th April 1878. May I beg you to look once more at the enclosed return. No. 9a. It i.s from no wish to withhold . information from H.M. Commissioners that I have not given the particulars about Tutors and Lecturers, for which you ask in your letter of yesterday, but siroplv because I have not the information to give. T do not know on what principle this lump sum is divided. The Tutors are appointed by the President at his sole discretion, and are not necessarily members of the college. At present I. believe there are two Tutor.s — one a former Fellow of the college, the other an actual Fellow. To the former of these, as Senior Tutor, I pay over the lump sum referred to, which for the sake of convenience I have collected from the undergraduates in battels. The college has nothing to do with the distribution of it. The President arranges with N2 100 the Tutors for the employment of other Lecturers and Assistant-Tutors, and pays them such pro- portions of this variable sum as may be agreed on from year to year. I do not knovr except from the information furnished by the President to the University Calendar, who are the recipients of these various sums. I can of course, furnish you with the names of the holders of yearly offices for the current year, if that is an object of interest to H.M. Commissioners. The first ten items can be thus supplied. But the educational staff is a continually shifting body. Three of the names supplied for 1877 have already disappeared from their numbers, and further changes may occur before the close of the year. With regard to stipends : I have informed you that the items described as “ College payments ” are fixed. The variable items it is impossible to anticipate ; an average would be simply misleading. Within the last five years the number of undergraduates paying tuition fees has increased by about one half. I should therefore much prefer that H.M. Commissioners should adopt the other alter- native suggested by yourself, and accept the figures for 1877 as given in my return. But to give the names for 1878, with the figures for 1877, seems such an anomalous proceeding, that I thought it better to fill up the return for 1877, believing that the names of individuals would not be essential to the question. Should this explanation not appear sufficient, I shall be happy to make such changes as you may suggest, provided the information required is within my power to furnish. I am, &c. Thos. F. Dallin, Esq., T. S. Omond, Bursar. Secretary to the University of Oxford Commission. JESUS COLLEGE. I. Name of Office. II. Holder of Office. III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV. Annual Stipend or V alue of Office. V. Remarks. 1 Vice-Principal - W. Eccles Jones - Fellow £ s. d. 120 0 0 20/. per annum is paid out of 2 Senior Bursar Ditto - - - Ditto - 120 0 0 stipend to Welsh Reader for supervision of Chapel Roll. The Senior Bursar receives .3 Junior Bursar ,Jno. Griffiths Ditto 100 0 0 further 30/. per annum as Meyi’icke accountant. 4 Latin Lecturer E. R. Wharton - Not Fellow 100 0 0 — 5 Greek Lecturer - W. Eccles Jones Fellow 100 0 0 — 6 Natural Science Lecturer E. Chapman Not Fellow 60 0 0 — 7 Modern History Lecturer Rev. F. .1. Jayne- Ditto 60 0 0 — 8 Catechetical and Theo- Ditto - Ditto 80 0 0 — 9 logical Lecturer. Welsh Reader Rev. Llewelyn Thomas - Fellow 40 0 0 Is paid 20/. additional by 10 Dean - - - Rev. W. II. Hughes Ditto ' - 20 0 0 Vice-Principal. Also a fee of 1/. Is. from each 11 Librarian Rev. Llewelyn Thomas - Ditto O c o person presented for a degree. 12 Chaplains Tutor - - . The Fellows in Orders read a week each in rotation, and are paid 2/. per week. 13 Rev. Llewelyn Thomas - Fellow I Tutors are at 1 14 Ditto - - - Rev. W. Hawker Hughes Ditto - ^ present paid J by fees. I Statement of Tutorial Fund, 1877. Total Receipts (from fees) £ s. d. 793 16 0 Mathematical Tutor - Assistant Classical Tutor The two Tutors (each) 1.50 0 0 160 19 0 241 8 6 The Tutorial Fund varies in proportion to the number of resident undergraduates. There has been a fixed charge upon it of 150/. per annum paid to the Mathematical Tutor ; this charge will for the future be reduced to 100/. per annum, the College paying the extra 50/. After the deduction of this sum a fourth of the fees is paid to an Assistant Classical Tutor. (Signed) W. ECCLES JONES, Vice-Principal. WADHAM COLLEGE. Ml s. (/. 1 Sub-W arden - - G. E. Thorley, M.A. Fellow - 70 0 0 From — £ s. d. Corporate funds - 52 0 0 Trust funds -18 0 0 2 Tutor (1) _ . Ditto - - - Ditto _ 287 13 3 From the Tuition Fund. 3 Tutor (2) - - Rev. P. A. Henderson, Ditto - - 287 13 3 Ditto. M.A. 4 Tutor rs) • II. P. Richards, M.A. Ditto - - 257 13 6 Ditto. 101 "VV AD II AM College — continued. / I. Name of Office. II. Holder of Office. III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV. Annual Stipend or Value of Office. V. Remarks. 5 Prailector of Humanity - Ditto - - - Ditto £ s. 30 0 d. 0 From — £ s. d. G Catechist and Divinity Rev. .1. C. II anbury, M.A. Not a Fellow 1G3 10 0 Corporate funds- 5 10 0 Trust fund - 24 10 0 (Dr. Smith’s.) *From — 7 Lecturer. Lecturer in Mathematics - T. Bowman, B.A. Fellow of Merton 100 0 0 Corporate funds- 3 0 0 Trust funds -IGO 10 0 From the Tuition Fund. 8 Lecturer in Natural E. Chapman, M.A. College (late Scholar of Wad- ham College). Not a Fellow No fixed stipend ; receives 5/. 9 Science. Lecturer in Law - J. C. Wilson, M.A. Not a Fellow (of a term for each pupil from the Tuition Fund. No fixed stipend ; receives 5/. 10 Lecturer in Modern His- Rev. A. II. Johnson, M.A. Exeter College). Not a Fellow (of a term for each pupil from the Tuition Fund. Ditto. 11 tory. Bursar-j- - - - G. E. Thorley, M.A. All Souls Col- lege). Fellow 200 0 0 From the corporate funds of 12 Dean . - - A. Stowe, M.A. - Ditto - 40 0 0 the College. JFrom — £ s. d. 13 Librarian II. P. Richards, M.A. Ditto 20 0 0 Corporate funds 2G 0 0 Trust funds - 14 0 0 From — 14 Chaplain (1) Rev. P. A. Henderson, Ditto - 50 0 0 Corporate funds 14 0 0 Trust funds -GOO From — 15 Chaplain (2) M.A. Rev. J. C. Hanbury, M.A. Not a Fellow 50 0 0 Corporate funds 23 G 8 Trust funds - 2G 13 4 Ditto ditto. * Until 1877 103/. was paid to the Divinity Lecturer from the Corporate Funds; now, with the sanction of the Visitor, he receives 100/. from Dr. Wills’ Living Fund. t According to the Statutes there are two bursars, but the offices are severally held by the same person. X The Dean also receives 1/. Is. on each presentation for a degree. These fees in 1877 amounted to 23/. 2s. (Signed) G. E. THORLEY, Bursar. PEMBROKE COLLEGE. £ s. d. j 1 Vicegerent Professor B. Price Fellow Nil. r 2 Tutor Rev. R. G. Livingstone - Ditto 300 0 0 3 Ditto - - - Mr. A. T. Barton Ditto 300 0 0 4 Lecturer in Philosophy - Professor Chandler Ditto - 100 0 0 5 Lecturer in Mathematics - Mr. C. Leudesdorf Ditto 200 0 O' G Lecturer in Ancient His- Mr. G. Wood - Ditto 100 0 0 tory, &c. 7 Lecturer in Law and Rev. A. H. Johnson Not a Fellow 120 0 0 Modern History. 8 Senior Bursar Mr. J. L. G. Mowat Fellow 150 0 0 r 9 Senior Dean Rev. R. G. Livingstone - 2 50 0 0< The College also pays out of the Tuition Fund fees (li- mited in amount at present to 130/. a 3 'ear) for those w'ho are readingfor Honours in the Final Schools, and attending Professors’ and other lectures in Theology, Natural Science, or cither of the subjects of the Final Classical Schools. After the deduction of stipends and fees the residue of the Tuition Fund, if any, is divided in a certain proper tion between all the tutors and lecturers being Fellows of the College. The Dean used to be paid out of the degree fees 1/. Is. for each presentation. Now the fees are paid to the Common Fund and theDean receives a fixed stipend. N 3 102 Pembroke College — continued . I. Name of Office. II. Holder of Office. III. Whether Holder is a Fellow of the College or not. IV. Annual Stipend or Value of Office. V. Remarks. 10 Junior Bursar IVIi'. C. Leudesdorf 5 - s . d. 5 0 0 ] 1 Junior Dean Mr. A. T. Barton 3 - .5 0 0 — ■ 13 Librarian Professor Chandler 4 Nil. 13 Chaplain - - - Rev. R. G. Liviugstone - 2 60 0 0 . r Formerly the resident Fellows, who were all in Orders, di- vided the duty and stipend of Chaplain between them. Now there is only one cleri- cal Fellow within the Col- lege, and there is much diffi- culty in obtaining the neces- sary assistance from without. (Signed) E. EVANS, Master. WORCESTER COLLEGE. 1 Vice-Provost T. W. Jackson Fellow & 20 s. 0 d. 0 2 Bursar - C. Henry 0. Daniel - Ditto - - 300 0 0 r House Bursar, 200/. (Estates Bur.sar, 100/. 3 Dean - F.. Wallace - - Ditto - - 60 0 0 4 Librarian - Ditto - - - Ditto - - 20 0 0 5 Chaplain - - C. H. 0. Daniel - - Ditto - - 35 0 0 G „ Assistant to - St. ,J. Tyrwhitt - - Not Fellow - 35 0 0 7 Tutor _ T. W. Jackson - - Fellow - - 350 0 0 8 - - - E. Wallace - - Ditto - 300 0 0 9 Lecturer, Classical - W. Grundy - - Ditto - - 180 0 0 Resigned at Easter. 10 ,, Law - H. Pottinger - - Not Fellow - 150 0 0 11 „ Divinity - B. W. M. Pope - - Ditto - - 60 0 0 Variable. Ditto (about.) 12 - — Jayne - - - - 60 0 0 Variable. (about.) la „ PoliticalEconomy J. E. T. Rogers - - Ditto - 50 0 0 — 14 „ Mathematics - John Griffiths - " Ditto - - 60 0 0 Variable. (about.) 15 “ R. W. M. Pope ■ ■ Ditto ” 120 0 0 — (Signed) C. HENRY DANIEL, Bursar. No. 10. University of Oxford Commission, Sm, 5, Craig’s Court, London, S.W., May 1878. I AM desired by the University of Oxford Commissioners to inform you that there are certain questions on which they think it probable that the governing bodies, or the heads, or other individual members of the governing bodies, of particular colleges, may wish to have an opportunity of expressing opinions to the Commissioners, with a view, not to their own colleges only, but to the general principles on which those questions ought to be dealt with, in the interest of the University as a place of religion, learning, and education. Such are : 1. The question of the best mode of making proper and effectual provision for religious instruction and religious services in the different colleges, 2. The question whether the qualification of holy orders should continue to be necessary for fellowships or headships of colleges not specially connected with the duty of giving religious instruction, or conducting religious services. 3. The question of the terms, as to duration and otherwise, on which prize fellowships in any college should be held. 4. The conditions of tenure of such fellowships, other than prize fellowships, as it may be desirable to retain in colleges. 103 5. The question how far it is desirable to aim at uniformity in the value and conditions of tenure of scholarships on the foundations of the different colleges. 6. The question how far it may be practicable and desirable to make provision in every college for the elementary instruction of all undergraduates in natural science. The Commissioners would be glad if you would make use of such means as seem to you best for the purpose of informing the members of your society that they are willing to receive and consider such opinions in writing as it may be desired to lay before them on these subjects. I am, &c. T. F. DALLIN, Secretary. Answers to Circular No. 10. INDEX. Anson, Sir W. R., Bart.- Page - 129 Kitchin, Rev. G. W. Page - 157 Asquith, H. H. - - - - 169 Liddon, Dr. - - - - 152 Baker, G. E. - - - - 130 Lightfoot, Dr. - - - _ - 104 Balliol College, Master and Fellows of - - 103 Lincoln College : Tutors and Lecturer of - 107 „ Five Fellows of - - 169 Macan, R. W. - - - 134 Bradley, A. C. - - - - 169 Magrath, Rev. J. R. - - _ - 170 Bradley, Rev. G. G. - - - 140 Mowbray, R. G. C. - - 129 Brasenose College - - - 108 Myers, E. - - . - 135 Brodrick, Hon. G. C. - - - 164 N eate, Charles - - _ - 159 Browne, Rev. C. H. - - - 138 Nettleship, R. L. - _ - 169 Burrows, Professor - - ' 133 New College - - - 150 Butehei’, S. H. - - - - 134 Oriel College - _ _ - 145 Butler, Rev. A. G. - - - Ill Queen’s College, Pro- Provost of _ - 170 Chamberlain, Rev. T. - - - 112 Richards, H. Rolleston, Professor _ _ - 136 Chase, Rev. D. P. - - - 113 - 121 Corpus Christi College - - - - 109 Salwey, Rev. H. - _ - 124 Divinity, Regius Professor of - - - 120 Sampson, Rev. E. F. - - - 124 Exeter College - - - - 106 Scott, G. R. _ _ - 126 „ Reetor of - - - 104 Shute, R. Thompson, J. B. _ - 137 Forbes, VV. H. - - - - 169 - - 142 Fowler, Professor - - - 116 Thorley, G. E. - _ - 163 Fi’eeling, Rev. G. N. - - - 173 Tozer, Rev. H. F. _ _ - 128 George, Rev. H. B. - - - 119 Trinity College - _ . - 110 Goodwin, A. - - - - 169 University College, Master of _ - 140 Hammond, Rev. C. E. - - - - 174 VVadhain College _ _ - 110 Harcourt, A. G. V. Holland, Professor - - - 144 Ward, T. H. _ - 171 - - - 119 Watson, Rev. A. _ _ - 129 Hoole, Rev. C. H. - - - 150 Whittuck, Rev. C. A. \\^orcester College _ . - 161 Hopkins, Rev. T. H. T. - - - 120 - _ - Ill Ince, Dr. “ “ - 120 Wordsworth, Rev. J. - - - -^146 Answers to Circular No. 10. FROM MASTER AND FELLOWS OF BALLIOL COLLEGE. Question 1.— We would cite the clauses in the statutes proposed to be submitted to the Commis- sion respecting — (1.) Election of Clerical Felloivs. [Statute III., section 21 “ The master and fellows may, if they think fit, by a simple majority, “ and either with or without previous notice or examination, elect to a fellowship either tutorial or “ non-tutorial a person in holy orders who appears to them eminently qualified to give relio-ious “ instruction, or agree to elect to any such fellowship a person so qualified who is willing to^take “ holy orders before his election ; and may, at the time, and as a condition of his election, require “ him to conform to such' regulations with respect to residence and service, either as tutor or as “ chaplain, as they think expedient. Provided as follows : “ (i.) No election shall be made under this clause whilst there is resident in the college a fellow “ elected under the same clause : “ (ii.) If neither the master nor any of the fellows resident at the university is in holy orders, au “ election shall, at the next vacancy, be made under this clause. But the filling up of this “ vacancy may be postponed for a period not exceeding a year.”] Tvr A. 104 (2.) Provision of Clerical Instruction. [Statute V., section 4 : — “ The master and fellows shall provide religious instruction for all mem- “ hers of the college in Statu Pupillari, and shall charge one or more of the fellows specially with “ the giving of such instruction.”] Question 2. — We are strongly of opinion that the qualification of holy orders should not continue to be necessary for any headship of a college, or any fellowship not specially connected with the duty of giving religious instruction. Question 3. — We think that the value of non-resident or prize fellowships should be limited to 200?. a year ; and the tenure of them to seven years. We should wish strongly to urge on the Commission the desirableness of such conditions being uniform in different colleges. Question 4. — We are of opinion that each college should be left to determine in concert with the Commissioners the ari'angements which it may think best for its tutorial fellows, and for the per- formance of their educational duties. With regard to fellowships attached to professorships, we think it very important that the acceptance of such a fellowship should not prevent the professor being retained on the governing body of his former college either without stipend, or with a stipend not exceeding 50?. a year. We believe that by severing the connexion of the professor with his old college, his influence with the underoraduate.s, and consequently his usefulness, would be seriously impaired. It would generally be injurious to a college to be deprived of the presence on its governing body of its best members at a time when their experience and position would make their advice and assistance most valuable. We see no reason why a man should not be a member of two governing bodies, though it would of course be improper that he should draw the full stipend of a fellow from both. [Compare Statute III., section 26 : — “ If a fellow is elected to and accepts the headship of any “ other college, or a fellowship in any other college, to which a stipend of more than 50?. a year is “ attached, he shall thereupon vacate his fellowship ; but the master and fellows may, if they think “ fit, by a majority of two-thirds of those present and voting at a stated general meeting, and with “ the consent of the visitor, continue his fellowship for a term of five years, and may from time to “ time so continue it for further like tei'ms. “No stipend shall be attached to a fellowship continued under this provision unless the master “ and fellows think fit to attach to it a stipend not exceeding 50?. a year; and for the purposes of “ clause 1 of tliis statute, it shall not be counted as a tutorial fellowship.”] Question 5. — We think that the regulations for scholarships at Cambridge and Oxford should be as nearly as possible the same ; that scholarships shoiild only be tenable on the condition of con- tinued industry and good behaviour ; that their value should not exceed 80?., including allowances and room rents ; and that the limit of age should be 19, provided that a certain number of exhibi- tions remain open to older candidates. Question 6. — In the opinion of the college such elementary instruction as appears to be contem- plated in this eprestion should be given at school. But they think that in some of the colleges at least provision may advantageously be made for the requirements of more advanced students in Natural Science. FROM THE RECTOR OF EXETER COLLEGE. Sir, Exeter College, June 20, 1878. I ENCLOSE herewith a copy of some remarks on certain questions forwarded by you with a re([uest that I Avould give them to diflerent members of the college. The remarks have received the formal assent of a college meeting; but being unable to concur in them all, I have expressed my oAvn opinion, especially on the two first questions, in accompanying papers. I have, &e. T. F. Dallin, Esq. J. P. Lightfoot. Question 1. — It would no doubt be possible to provide for the chapel services by the appointment of a chaplain or chaplains, but surely it would be more satisfactory that these officers should be members of the corporate body, fellows of the college. No doubt a very great improvement has taken place of late years in the “ status ” of the chaplain at Oxford, and at the present moment they are men of high character, but it can scarcely be doubted that their influence would be far greater v/ere they fellows of their respective colleges. In the matter of the chapel services also Eiey should have a voice, and the more as the college has now the power of altering the “ form ” of service, in the way of omission, almost as it pleases, subject only to the consent of its visitor. And when it is considered that it is not only not impossible, but even probable, that in this or that college, ere long, the majority of its fellows may be composed of men Avho never attend the chapel service, and so can be supposed to take little interest in it, it is of paramount importance to provide that at least there should be one or more such fellows to give advice as to the chapel services generally, and to give support to the head, should he be in holy orders, but if not, the presence of such fellows would be even moi’e important ; and supposing any attempt should be made to deprive the service of its doctrinal character, and this attempt were successful, as far as the vote of the corporate body was concerned, these chaplain fellows Avould be in a position to make their representations to the visitor before his assent Avas given. Whether there should be one or more chaplain felloAvs Avould of course depend on the size and needs of the college. At Exeter, on Sundays, for many years there has been an administration of 105 the Holy Communion early in the morning, morning service at 8 or 8.30, a second administration of the Holy Communion at 12 ; evening service with a sermon at 5, and a second evening service and a sermon for the servants at 7.30. On alternate Sundays the Holy Communion has only been administered once during the present term, (twice on other Sundays,) but the result has been un- satisfactory, as the number of communicants has diminished. For the above service a single chap- lain would not be sufficient, even if the Holy Communion should continue to be administered once only on the alternate Sundays. No difficulty, it is true, has been experienced in providing for the.se, but it must be remembered that the Rector and four resident fellows were in holy orders. Provision also might be made for the religious instruction of the members of the Church of Eno-land in a college by the payment of a lecturer or lecturers, not members of the foundation. A college exists, however, not simply as a place of learning, but of education ; you want educators, not simply lecturers. An Act of Parliament might be complied with, if only the latter were appointed, but no one would contend that a college had thus done its whole duty. Ask the parents (whether lay or clerical) of young men, just at the turning, critical point of their lives, whether they would be satisfied v/ith the religious training which could be given in a lecture room, and the amswer would not be far to seek. And it should not be forgotten that the lay fellows are not required to be of any religious profession, and that some of them, as far as may be inferred from their total absence from the college chapel, are not of any, and that therefore it is the more necessary to provide that there should be always some persons in the corporate body duly qualified to dis- charge all the offices of a tutor, as contradistinguished from those of the mere lecturer. The theory in old times was, and is far from being merely theory in many cases still, that the tutor was the guardian of his pupil’s faith and morals, and even by the statutes of the university he was strictly charged to instruct his pupils in matters of faith and doctrine. True, a change in the law of the land was thought to necessitate a change also in the stringency of the statutes, and by them tutors generally are no longer charged to be the religious advisers of their pupils, but the ai.)sence of any such general charge would only seem to render it the more necessaiy that some pro- vision should be made in each college, that there should be persons in it ready to discharge this important duty, and I know not how better provision could be made than by limiting a certain number of fellowships to persons in holy orders, being men already ordained solemnly to the care and culture of character as their life’s special work. Nor has’ the Tests Act, as it is commonly called, destroyed the character of a college as a religious foundation ; it has not meddled in any way with the statutes, except in the provisions that the fellowships or scholarships to a certain extent shall be open without any religious test. The very Act itself provides for the continuance of its religious service.s, and one of its enactments is that members of the Church of England in it shall be instructed in the doctrines of this faith, and although it may be thought to be going too far to insist that all the teachers in a college shall be men of “pious conveisation and leaining,” yet it would seem almost to be within the spirit of the Act, that there should be always some such. Question 2. — As thei’e is now no seciirity that lay fellows should bo of any profession of faith, and as a college is still recognised as a place of religion, it seems desirable that there should be a certain number of fellows in every society in holy orders, who would be likely to give to it a religious tone, or at least to a great extent prevent an irreligious tone from becoming dominant. Moreover the head, it is presumed, will still have the power of nominating the officers engaged in instruction. Those engaged in religious instruction would probably be in holy orders. Would it be desirable to limit his choice to two persons? or, at Exeter indeed, if there were only two clerical fellows, he might virtually have no choice, as one is appointed by an external body, and might not be qualified to give lectures on divinity at all, so that although nominally the power might be in the hands of the head, the real exercise of it would be in the hands of the college, who would elect the fellow in holy orders, but retaining a veto on all the rector’s nominations, could compel him to nominate the elected fellow. Presuming, however, that there would be more than two clerical fellows, and that the head would have the power of nomination, should there not be some assurance from his calling that he is a person fitted for exercising discretion in the selection of some one or more lecturers on divinity, or tutors in the older sense of the word, both as to their doctrinal views and their probable moral influence over their pupils ? A head in holy orders is likely to be such a person, nor need his fitness to select religious teachers interfere with his abilty to make judicious selections in lecturers in other matters, whereas a head well suited for a wise selection in secular matters, might be most unfitted to select religious teachers. Again, the head, to use the words of the Exeter College Statutes, is to exercise a general superintendence over the college in all its departments;” now considering the college as a place of religion, it would seem that security could only be taken in this respect for t!ie due dis- charge of the duty by providing that the head be in holy orders. 'You cannot otherwise secure that he should be a Christian ; and if not, it could hardly be contended that it were desirable even that he should in any way meddle with the religious teaching of the college or the religious education of. its members. The suggestion of a head not being a Christian may startle, but if the majority of the fellows be not Christians, and it must be conceded that it may not be, would they be liable to unqualified censure in electing a head of their own unbelief? a further question might be asked, Tuight not their conscience compel them to elect such a head ? It must be acknowledged that in restricting the headship to men in holy orders, those may be shut out from it who have been amongst the first and foremost in the paths of literature Q C223, * Exeter College Statutes. O 10(5 or science, but if it be for the good of the college that the restriction should be preserved private interest must yield to public. It is hoped that the Commissioners will not think the rector travelling wholly beyond the subject of the questions in calling their attention to the present statutes of Exeter College. As the fellows of the college were by the older statutes directed immediately “ post completam Regentiam ” to betake themselves to the studj^ of divinity, and at a certain period afterwards to take the degree of Bachelor of Divinity, they were all compelled to take holy orders, the penalty for not proceeding to this degree being loss of their fellowships. The college in making its new statutes in 1854 desired to embody the spirit of this enactment in providing that “ Any fellow who shall not within 15 years from the day of his election as probationer have “ taken holy orders shall ipso facto vacate his fellowshij).” To this general law, however, there are the following exceptions, viz. : — ■ 1. “ That if any fellow at the end of the 15 years shall be engaged as a tutor or lecturer he shall hold his fellowship whilst so engaged and no longer,” 2. “ That if any fellow shall have been engaged as tutor or lecturer for 10 academic years he shall retain his fellowship without the obligation of taking holy orders.” (It is also provided that the rector and sub-rector shall be in holy orders, and there is 'sl chaplain fellow). The question then arises, and may be of great importance when the number of clerical fellows for the future is to be settled, is the present a clerical body ? The rule being that the fellows all shall take holy orders or vacate their fellowships, the obligation not to take holy orders being only the exception, it is contended that the present is a clerical body. It will be seen that my views are not in accord with those of the college in regard to questions 1 , 2 . In regard to questions 3, 4, 5, G, there is not much difference of opinion between us. As to prize fellowships, 150i. per annum would seem to me a sufficient sum, and with the differ- ence of that sum and 200?. their number might be advantageously increased, and in my opinion jirize fellows should have a voice in the government of the college in all except educational matters. My views are entirely in accord with those of the college as to the uniformity of value and tenure of scholarships, the suggestion being in my opinion worthy of all considera- tion whether their value might not with advantage be somewhat reduced and more provision made in every college for the aid of those who need assistance at the university. Believing also that the university is thoroughly competent to manage all matters whatever having relation to literature and science I should deprecate any special provisions in regard to the teaching in either the one subject or the other. J. P. Lightfoot. Exeter College, June 19, 1878. FROM EXETER COLLEGE. 1. In answering this question it may be desirable to recognise the distinction between religious instruction in the sense in which the term is used in the Universities Tests Act, and instruction of candidates for honours in the Theological School. This latter kind of instruction stands on the same footing as instruction in history or in any other subject of examination in the schools, and the colleges would provide for this as at present either independently or in combination with other colleges. “ Religious instruction,” as the term is used in the Tests Act, has never been authoritatively defined. Practically it would seem to be generally given by means of sermons in those college chapels, in which sermons are preached, and by divinity lectures in which undergraduates are placed for the purpose of preparing them to pass an ordinary divinity examination preliminary to the degree. It appears to the college advisable that there should be on the regular educational staff of each college some one person duly qualified to undertake the religious instruction of the undergraduate membei’S of the college. For the reading of morning and evening prayer it seems unnecessary to employ the services of a member of the college. At the present time college chaplaincies are often held by persons who are not members of the college. Where the foundation of a college already includes a chaplain fellow, he might be made re.sponsible for the religious instruction of the undergraduates, as well as for the services of the college chapel ; and a clause might be inserted in the college statutes requiring the chaplain fellow to take part in the religious instruction of the college if necessary. 2. The college is of opinion that the qualification of holy orders should not continue to be necessary for such fellowships and head.ships. 3. It seems generally desirable that prize fellowships should be held sufficiently long, and be of sufficient value, to assist the holder in completing bis training for a profession, and during the first years of his profe.ssional life. Seven or eight years of tenure, and a yearly value not exceeding 200?., would probably be sufficient for this purpose. 107 if the holder of a prize fellowship were engaged in literary or scientific studies and produced writings of permanent value, the college, by a majority of two thirds, might have the power of extending his tenure for an additional term of years. For prize fellowships a property disqualification would be desirable. This disqualification might, if it were thought fit, be suspended for the first year after election, so as to give to all the opportunity of obtaining this distinction. 4. Fellowships other than prize fellowships would naturally be held subject to the performance of duties, whether those of teaching, or of managing college property. It would seem desirable that no restriction of celibacy should be imposed on the holders of these fellowships, but that other measures should be adopted to secure the residence of a sufficient number of the governing body within the college walls. A property disqualification would not be advisable so long as the holder of the fellowship was engaged in college work. Some provision for the retirement of such fellows seems also indispensable. 5. It would in the opinion of the college be very advantageous that foundation scholarships at the different colleges should be made as far as possible uniform in value and conditions of tenure. If the value of these scholarships were fixed at a somewhat lower rate than at present, the power might be given to colleges of supplementing them in the case of poor men by an exhibition tenable on con- dition that the holder needed assistance at the university. The nominal value of a scholarship might be fixed at a sum not exceeding .50^. annually. 6. The question whether it be desirable to make provision in a college for giving instruction in the elements of natural science to all undergraduates would seem to stand on a different footing from the question whether it is desirable to introduce natural science to a larger extent into univer- sity examinations either as a compulsory or as an optional subject. Without prejudging the latter (question it appears to the college that the former may be answered in the negative. If an elemen- tary knowledge of natural science be ever required by the univei'sity from candidates for responsions such knowledge should be imparted at school and not at college. The elementary knowledge of the other subjects presented in responsions is almost entirel}^ and should be entirely, acquired at school or before matriculation. It seems ad\isab]e to diminish rather than to increase the amount of such elementary instruction given at the university. If the university .should introduce the subject into the later examinations to a larger extent than has already been done, teaching will naturally be provided by colleges according to their needs. Instruction in this subject more than in any other, on account of the appliances required for it, cannot advantageously be provided by isolated colleges, but needs combination among the colleges, and a sound organisation of college in connexion with university teaching. The foregoing remarks received the assent of a college meeting held on Tuesday the 18th day of June 1878. Exeter College, June 20, 1878. Signed on behalf of the College, J. P. Lightfoot, Rector. FROM TUTORS AND LECTURER OF LINCOLN COLLEGE. My dear Dallin, Lincoln College, Oxford, June 20, 1878. Will you be good enough to lay befoi'e your Commission the accompanying an.swers from the tutors of Lincoln College and myself. Very truly yours, T. Dallin, Esq. W. Merry. Replies from the Tutors and Lecturer of Lincoln College to the Questions proposed by the University of Oxford Commission. 1. We are of opinion that religious instruction in the different colleges may best be provided for thi'ough intercollegiate lectures, such instruction being made statutably binding upon members of the Church of England during part at least of their undergraduate course. We think that the conduct of the religious services in each college may safely be left to the governing body to arrange in accordance with their own peculiar circumstances. 2. We do not consider that the qualification of holy orders should continue to be necessary for felloAvships or headships of colleges not specially connected with the duty of giving religious instruc- tion or conducting religious seiwices. 3 We desire to see prize fellowships limited in length of tenure to seven years as a maximum, their value fixed at not more than 200^. a year, and the present restrictions as to celibacy and property removed. 4. We are of opinion that the acceptance of college work should be a condition of the holding of the majority of fellowships other than prize fellowships, and that after a long period of work in the service of the college, the holder should, when practicable, be entitled to hold a fellowship, without work, as a pension. If, however, the difficulty that sufficient fellowships may not be available for this purpose should seem likely to arise, we think that a pension fund may be gradually formed out of funds obtained in certaincases from the sale of liv ings, andfrom the surplus of the tutorial fund, or other sources. We consider it of the utmost importance that frugal habitsshoidd be encouraged among resident teachers in Oxford, and on this account we think that a lecturer should begin with a tofid income of O t08 not more than 850/. A. fellowship ol 250/., and educational work moderate in amount and of the value of about 100/. a year, would be amply sufficient. Additional work might follow, and a tutorship might reach a total value, including fellowship, of about 600/. After a considerable period of service, tlie acquisition of a senior fellowship miffiit raise this to cSOO/. ® We are in favour of the principle of removing the restriction of celibacy from fellowships. 5. We consider that the value of all scholarships should be limited to a maximum considerablv below that which in some cases actually exists at present, but that this should not jn-eclude tlie colleges from supplementing such scholarships in certain cases with exhibitions of a distinctly eleemosynary character. We wisli to point out that a scholar elected to a valuable scholarship for four or five years is liable to consider himself to have a kind of vested intere.st in his scholarship, and that this is often an encouragement to caieless habits of work. This might, ]ierha|)s, be lemedied either — (a.) By instituting graduations in the value of scholarships, and making a rise to a scholarship of higher value depend upon good conduct and diligence ; or, (A) By election in the first instance for not more than one or two years. In whatever way thi.s difficulty be met, we think it important that, in this re.spect a uniform system be adopted. As regards the ago at which scholarships may be obtained, and othei' conditions of tenure, Ave think it undesirable that the poAver of colleges should be limited otherwise than may at present bo the case, 6. We do not believe it to be practicable or desirable to make provision in every college for the elementary instruction of all undergraduates in natural science. W. W. Merry, M.A., FelloAv and Lecturer of Lincoln College. AV. Warde Fowler, M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Lincoln College. N. Bodington, M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Lincoln Colleo-e. O FROM BRASENOSE COLLEGE. Sir, Brasenose College, June 26, 1878. I HAVE the honour to enclose the reply of the governing body of this college to certain questions offered to their consideration in your letter of May 30, 1878. The members of that body are aAvare of the readiness of the Commissioners to receive the expression of the opinion of individuals upon any of the important subjects referred to in your communication. I am, &c. The Secretary, E. H. Cradock, University of Oxford Commission. Principal. Brasenose Collefie, Oxford. Substance of a reply agreed upon at meetings held June 20, 21, 1878, as that to be made by the college to the cpiestious submitted to it by the Oxfoi’d University Commission, 30th May 1878 : — Question 1. — Whenever there shall be fewer than two fellows in holy orders resident and Avilling to undertake the charge of religious instruction and religious services, the next fellow elected, if not in holy orders, must declare his intention of taking holy order.s Avithin six months of the day of his election, and shall be reqAiii’ed to undertake his share of the duties above mentioned. Question 2. — Otherwise than as aboAm provided, no felloAV shall be required to be in holy orders. The Principal shall not be required to be in holy orders. Question 3. — Fellowships to be distinguished as : 1. Prize felloAvships, and 2. Official fellowships. Prize fellows to be in all cases elected after examination, and to become members of the ffovernino’ body six months after their election ; to receive as stipend 2J0/. a year, and to' retain their places fur seA'cn years and no more, except as herein-after provided ; to be permitted to many without for- feiting their felloAVships, and to be subject to no disqualification on the ground of the possession of property or of non-residence. Question 4. — In the opinion of the governing body nine, or at the very least eight, official fellows are necessary for the administration of the college, of whom four at the least should be required to reside Avithin the walls. Official fellows not of necessity to be elected after an examination. But a candidate elected without an examination must have received the support of a majority consisting of at least two-thirds of the governing body, unless he shall have previously gained a prize fellowship, in which case a simple majority shall suflice. An official felloAV elected after exandnation shall require only a simple majoritjL The minimum stipend to an official fellow .shall be 250/. a year besides allowances for rooms and commons. Official felloAvs to 1 e elected in the first instance for a term of five years, but to be capable of re- election one year before the expiration of that period by a simple majority. 109 Official fellows to liokl tlieir places only so long as they shall be in the service of the college as vice-principal, tutor, lecturer, or bursar ; but after 25 years’ service to become entitled to a life pension of -fOO?. per annum, or to retain their fellowships for life. A scale of pensions to be arranged for official fellows retiring at any period after they shall have been 10 years in the service of the college. A suggestion was made that the college should have the power of requiring an official fellow to resign upon a pension after 15 years’ service, but after some discussion no decision was arrived at upon the question. On the (piestion of the inariiage of official fellows, the college after a lengthened discussion and much variety of opinion, failed to arrive at a decision as to the best solution of the difficulties of the cise; but no member of the governing body maintained that the obligation to celibacy should be enfoi’ced in every case and under all circumstances. tScholamhi pti. Question, 5. d’he college considers that some approximation to equality of value and uniformity of conditions is highly desirable in the case of open scholarships. The Cambridge system of minor scholarships with ])romotion ro foundation scholarships in case of merit, appears to us to deserve the consideration of the Commissioners. Question (1. — The college agrees in thinking that even if it were practicable in all colleges to pro- vide proper machinery for giving to all undergraduates elementary teaching in natural science, such an attempt could not'succeed unless the subject were to form a necessary portion of the requirements of the university for a degree. On behalf of the governing body, Brasenose College, E. H. Cradock, •Tune 2f), 1878. Principal. FBOM CORPUS CHRISTI COLLEGE. The Answers of the College to the Questions of the Commissioners dated May 1878. 1. In the opinion of the college it is desirable that the duties of imparting religious instruction and of performing religious seiwices in the college should be assigned where practicable to a member of the governing body of the college : that in the event of no such person being qualified by being in holv orders, or willing to undertake those duties, some person should be appointed to discharge them, who should have a place on the governing body of the college so long as he continued to dis- charge them. In the performance of the chapel services, the person so appointed should have the assistance of a chaplain. 2. It being understood that “ proper and effectual provision ” is made for “ religious instruction and religious services ” in the college, the college does not consider that the qualification of holy orders should continue to be necessary either for the headship or for fellowships. 3. With exceptions mentioned in the annexed statement the college would wish the conditions on which prize fellowships should be held to be such as have already been agreed on by the college, (v. Statement No. 1), and that the emoluments, duration, and general conditions of tenure of prize fellowships .should be made uniform (so far as possible) tliroughout the university. 4. The college would propose to confer the status of member of the governing body on all its tutors. It would wish to have the power of conferring that status on a certain number of college lecturers, and in addition on not more than three persons eminent in some branch of learning, literature, or science, wlio should be required to give occasional public lectures in that branch in the college. The appointments in the last-named cases might be either for life or for a term of years, capable of renewal on e.Kpiration at the discretion of the college. The consent of the chancellor of the university to be necessary to the appointment of any person upon whom an honorary superior degree has not been conferred by the university. 5. In regard to scholarships the college is of opinion that it might be usefully considered whether it is not desirable to fix — (1.) A uniform maximum value for scholarships. (2.) A uniform maximum age for candidates for scholarships. They would venture to suggest that such maximum age should not exceed 19 years in any case. They consider that older students might be specially provided for bj’’ means of exhibitions. G. The college does not consider it desirable to make provision in every college for the elementary instruction of all undergraduates in natural science. Statement annexed (reply to Question 3.) It Nvas agreed : That whereas it is desirable to enable holders of prize fellowships in this college — (1.) To accept employment in the college as lecturers or divinitv reader ; (2.) To undertake educational work in the univex’sity, not connected with any other college ; (3.) To undertake educational work of the nature contemplated by the university in its statutes concerning “ the establishment of texchiug an I lectures in the large towns of England and “ Wales;" 0 3 110 it shall be lawful for the college, subject in case (3) only to the consent of the university, to declare with regard to a number not exceeding six of the prize fellowships, that any time, or any portion of the time spent by the holders thereof in work in any of the kinds enumerated above, shall not count as part of the seven years or other period for which the said prize fellowships are tenable. The above resolution was agreed on by the college at the before-mentioned meeting held on Saturday, June 8th, 1878, and it was ordered that a copy of the same should be forwarded to the University of Oxford Commissioners. C. C. C., Oxford, June 1878. FROM TRINITY COLLEGE. Sir, Oxford, June 28, 1878. The governing body of Trinity College desire to avail themselves of the opportunity which the circular No. 10 of the University of Oxford Commissioners gives hy expressing their opinion on the questions there stated. The governing body at present consists of the President and the nine actual fellows. The governing body think : — 1. That the best mode of making proper and effectual provision for religious instruction and religious services is by clerical fellows, if possible, i-ather than by chaplains. 2. On the question whether the qualification of holy orders should continue to be necessary for headships, the governing body was divided ; nine persons were present, five voted against the qualification, /oiir voted /o7‘ it, one of whom was the President, and he having two votes and a easting vote, there was a majority of votes for the qualification. It was then proposed that the qualification of holy orders sho uld continue to be necessary for tivo (and, in the event of a lay President, three) fellowships, which would naturally be connected with re- ligious instruction and sei’vices. Seven persons voted /o?’, two against. 3. The governing body think that such fellowships as are held by non-residents should be limited in duration, say from 7 to lU years, and that their value should also be limited to about 200L The governing body would not be inclined to impose anj^ other terms, except that non-resident fellows should be required to attend college meetings, whenever summoned. The condition of celibacy to be removed. Here, also in No. 4, the conditions of tenure should be as uniform as possible throughout the different colleges. 4. The conditions of tenure of resident fellowships should be the holding of a college office or doing the work of a tutor or lecturer, or, in the case of persons specially approved by the college, the being engaged in study or research. Arrangements should be made by which fellows who prove unfit for fulfilling any of the above conditions might be transferred to the list of those holding prize fellowships. There should be a system of superannuation for college officers and tutors, with an arrangement for pensions. The age for superannuation should be fixed, power of continuing the tutorship being, however, reserved to the college. The governing body think it desirable that the college should have the power in special cases of electing to fellowships without a previous competitive examination, and that a majority consisting of at least three-fourths of the votes of the President and fellows should be required for any such election. The governing body also suppose that some relaxation of the present restriction of celibacy in the case of resident fellowships has become necessary, owing to the action of other colleges. The deOT’ee of relaxation should be uniform in all colleges. 5. It is desirable to aim at uniformity in the maximum value of scholarships, and such maximum should be 80Z. at most, inclusive of all allowances. G. It is desirable to make provision in every college for the elementary instruction of all under- graduates in natural science, but the practicability of this seems to depend on modifications in the university examinations. In making statutes for the college to be laid before the Commissioners, the governing body will be guided by the principles above laid down, unless on further consideration they should consider any change necessary. I am, &c. The Secretary, S. V7. Wayte, University of Oxford Commission. President. FROM WADHAM COLLEGE. Wadham College, Oxford, Sir, June 28, 1878. At a general meeting of the warden and fellows of this college the questions stated in your circular letter of 30th May 1878 (“No. 10 ’') by desire of the Oxford University Commissioners were this day considei'ed, and 1 was asked to send to you the following expression of the opinions of this society on the same. Ill “I. 1. We are of opinion that religious instruction in the colleges will be best secured, without any special or exceptional provision, by the necessity which the colleges must find of providing proper instruction in theology as in the other subjects recognised by the university. If, however, it is thoucrht by the Commissioners desirable that special provision should be made, it is our opinion that this would be best done by the establishment and adequate endowment in each college of a lectureship in divinity, such as in this and in most other colleges already exists. “ I. 2. The religious services in the college chapels being prescribed by statute, it would appear that their pi’oper maintenance is sufficiently provided for if an adequate stipend is attached to the office of chaplain, which already exists in most,, if not in all, colleges. We are of opinion that, though in practice the office of chaplain would generally be combined with that of divinity lecturer, it is undesirable that these offices should be necessarily united. It is also our opinion that, though these offices would probably be both usually held by fellows of the college, it is exceedingly un- desirable that either the chaplain or the divinity lecturer should be ex oficio a fellow. “ II. We are of opinion that the qualification of holy orders shoidd not be necessary for any fellow- ship or headship of a college. There are, we think, special objections to the obligation of holy orders in the case of the headship of this college, where there are no clerical fellowships, and where consequently such a restriction may limit the area of selection for the headship of this college even more injuriously than in other colleges. “ III. IV. Our views on these points may be inferred from the proposals for the reconstruction of our own college which have been already submitted to the Commissioners. “V. We think it of great importance that uniformity should be secured, as far as possible, in the value and conditions of tenure of scholarships on the foundations of the different colleges. “ VI. We do not think it practicable or desirable that provision should be made in every college for the elementary instruction of all undergraduates in natural science.” I have, &c. Thomas F. Dallin, Es(p John Griffiths, &c. ;&c. Warden. FROM WORCESTER COLLEGE. Worcester College, Oxford, Sir, June 28, 1878. In reply to the (questions addressed by the University of Oxford Commissioners to this college under date May 1878 (No. 10), I am desired by the Provost to lay before you copies of the following resolutions passed at a general college meeting held June 27th and 28th, which resolutions will form part of the scheme hereafter to be submitted to the Commissioners for their approval. (1.) The provost shall be appointed by the chancellor of the university, who shall choose “ aliquem e sociis qui nunc sunt aut qui olim fuerc ” who in his judgment shall be most fit for the government of the college as a place of religion, learning, and education. All further re- strictions shall be reserved. He shall receive a yearly stipend of 1,000Z. (2.) Religious service and instruction shall continue to be provided for by two chaplains nominated by the provost, paid for by the estate account, and by a divinity lecturer and theological tutor paid for in part by a charge upon room rents, the two last-named offices to be held either by one or two persons as may from time to time be found convenient. (3.) The fellowships of the college shall be filled up without any preference as to place of birth or education, and shall be free from all clerical celibate or other restrictions further than those below mentioned. (Here certain details are left for further consideration.) (4.) The fellowships called by the Commissioners prize fellowships shall be tenable each for seven years from the day on which the fellow is elected. They shall be of the value of 200Z. per annum. The candidates for such fellowships shall be required to present certificates of having passed such examinations as entitle them to become graduates of either of the now- existing universities [of Great Britain and Ireland. They shall be elected upon an exa- mination in any subject recognised in the ordinary university examinations which a majority of the governing body may determine. The provost forwards these resolutions as conveying the reply of the college to questions 1, 2, 3, and 4 (in part) so far as those questions have reference to the college itself. Other points have been left for subsequent consideration. I have, &c. The Secretary, C. Henry Daniel, University Commission. Bursar. FROM THE REVEREND A. G. BUTLER, M.A., FELLOW AND TUTOR, ORIEL COLLEGE. My Lords and Gentlemen, Taking your questions in the order in which they come, I think — 1. That it is essential to the proper working of a college, as a place of religion, as well as of learning and education, that its religious instruction and services should be conducted by members of the governing body. A chaplain from without, having no authority over the men, and knowing little or nothing of them, would in most cases be a mere functionary, having no influence in the O 4 112 college. What is wanted is not the mere reading of the service in the chapel, but the continual presence of persons in college whose duty it is to interest themselves in religious questions, and to promote respect for such questions among those about them. No stranger can do this adequately. Even if such chaplains were put on the governing body (as has been proposed), without the stipend and full ])rivileges of a fellow, little would have been done to meet the exigencies of the case. Such men would not live in college, and would still remain as strangers, even though occasionally invited to attend a college meeting. This is one objection to the plan of chaplains. Another, and in these days not an imaginary o]ie, is that the chaplain, seeking to magnify his office, would become a centre of religious )>r?])agandism, and so create au‘‘imperium in imperio,” disturbing the influence and exciting the jealoirsy of the college tutors. With a fellow there would be no such danger. The social influences and esprit de corps of a common life make men work all harmoniously together. Thus much for general objections to the chaplaincy system. There remains one special objec- tion, namely, that there is no class of jiersons now resident or likely to become resident, in Oxford, by whom such duties can be satisfactorily performed. The tendency of legislation has been to diminish the number of clergymen in colleges, and it does not seem likely for the future that this number will be increased. Even if large salaries were offered to tempt men to come to Oxford, a thing not very likely to be done at first, or at all events to be long continued, still the difficulty of finding persons for such a post would be very great. I have special reasons for knowing the trouble experienced by the head of a great engineering college in the attempt to find an able, moderate, and earnest man, suited for the post of chaplain to his students. The men exist, and can be got as fellows, but they are repelled by the ambiguous position of chaplain. With regard to clerical fellows, the objections made seem to me to apply rather to their num- ber, where they are numerous, than to their existence. They supply a want and represent a cause just as truly as the teachers of scholarship and of philosophy ; and the want is too im- portant for the supply of it to be left to the chance of a lay fellow taking orders Avhen needed, or of a body of lay fellows choosing to elect a clerical associate. I would therefoi’e propose that where the number of resident clergymen in a college, able and willing to perform the duties of the chapel, falls below a certain number, that number differing according to the whole number of fellows, there, on a vacancy occurring, a clergyman should be elected who should hold his fellowship on the condition of performing the above dutie.s. In many cases no such a necessity for a clerical election would arise. Where it did, such a proposal would meet the difficulty. Again, it must not be thought that the use of clerical fellows is restricted to the chapel. The best men may not go into orders ; but neither do the best men, as a rule, stay at the university and devote themselves to education. And while Oxford, as has been often said, thus fails to secure the services of her ablest sons, who are drawn away by more tempting ])rizes elsewhere, the clerical fellows Avill render most valuable aid, not only in the chapel seiwices, out also in the teaching and management of their respective colleges. 2. With regard to the tenure of fellowships, I would suggest that there .should be no dis- tinction of prize and other fellowships, but that all fellowships should be tenable for .say eight years, without any restriction of celibacy ; but that men may continue to hold their fellowships who are engaged in college or university work, Avhether in Oxford or in the great towns no\v entering into the scheme for the extension of university teaching. 2). 1 have always thought that it was fair that the headship should be open to laymen. It i.s hard to exclude them from the chief }>rize of their profession; still harder to call 13 men together to choose as their head a clergyman out of the remaining three members of the body. But I shordd deeplj^ regret if the colleges were secularised. If the head be a layman, as he generally will be, the more reason that some other resident officials on the governing body should be in holy orders. It is for the good of the men, whose religious needs must not be forgotten in our zeal for learning, and the public I am sure desires it. If we do not provide for these needs, Rome, and other forms of extreme opinion will profit by this neglect of our duties. And the couirtry will soon ask, why should we maintain these Oxford colleges with their great endowments ? Why should we not diffuse this wealth over the many towns in England, who are so eager to have a share ? A. G. Butler, M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Oriel. June 27, 1878. FROM THE REVEREND T. CHAMBERLAIN, M.A., STUDENT OF CHRIST CHURCH. Christ Church, Oxford, My Lords and Gentlemen, June 18, 1878. In reply to your circular dated May 31,1 beg leave to offer a few remarks. 1 and 2. I consider the preservation of the I'eligious character of our colleges, and of the education imparted therein, essential, both as regards the fulfilment of the trust imposed by founders and benefactors, as well as for the .sake of the young men committed to our care. It seems therefore imperative — 113 (a.) That the head of such college or hall should be in holy orders, and (6) that the larger proportion, say two-thirds, of all fellowships should be held on the same condition. This is also the answer to Question 4, so far as I have any opinion to express. JVo. G. If profe.ssors and i-eaders in natural science are not sufficient for the instruction of undergrad uate.s, the several colleges might be encouraged to combine for the purpose. I have, &c. T. Chamberlain, M.A., Student of Christ Church. FROM THE REVEREND D. P. CHASE, M.A., PRINCIPAL OF ST. MARY HALL AND FELLOW OF ORIEL. Dear Sir, I SEND herewith answei's, as brief as I cau make them, to the six questions on which the University of Oxford Commission have been good enough to invite suggestions. I am, &c. St. Mary Hall, June G, 1878. D. P. Chase. T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretary to the Commissioners. Question 1. — In consequence of the provisions of the Universities Tests Act, it is the law that only in Keble College and, if the recent judgment be ultimately confirmed in Hertford Colle'^e, will there be, in future, any guarantee (other than that which may be assumed to be given by the fact of being in hoi}'’ orders) that any one of the fellows of any existing college shall liave any definite religious belief. By holy orders is, I suppose, at present meant Holy Orders in the Church of England. I think, therefore, that in each college there should be not le,ss than two fellows in priests’ orders, whose duties shall be : (1.) To reside within the college for not less than (10 ?) weeks in each term ; (2.) To act personally as chaplains, and to maintain such religious services in the college chapel as may be allowed by the college ; (3.) To give at least such instruction as may be requisite to fit the students to pass the university examinations in the first public examination, and in Rudimentis Fidei ac Religionis ; (4.) To exercise a general control over the moml and religious conduct of all students being members of the Church of England. Every such fellow — (1.) Should be a tutor, in the sense of the term as used in the University Statutes, title III, section II. ; (2.) Should be entitled to receive from the tutorial fund a stipend not less than that which is assimed to the other tutors in the same college : O O ^ (3.) Should be in priests’ orders at the time of his appointment, if already a fellow of the college. And no person not being in priests’ orders should be capable of being elected to such fellowship. Question 2. — (1.) For fellowships “ not specially connected with the duty of giving religious “ instruction or conducting religious services.” I do not think that the qualification of holy “ orders should continue to be necessary.” But if this be determined otherwise, I desire to express most strongly my opinion that the qualification .should be the being in the priests’ orders at the time of candidature. My reasons are these : To elect under a promise to take holy orders tends to revive the old evil that men will he tempted to seek holy orders chiefly, if not solely, in order to retain their fellowships. To elect under pain of forfeiture, unless holy orders be taken within a definite time after election, not merely is open to the objection stated above, but admits easily of evasion. No law is ever loyally acted upon which contravenes the wishes of the majority of those on whom its execution devolves. A candidate may be elected who has no intention of ever taking holy orders ; after such election he may be transferred to a vacant lay fellowship. I believe that cases of this kind have occurred not long since. Again, it is open to any candidate to take the fellowship with the intention, avowed or not, of holding it only until the time of forfeiture comes. Under these circumstances the object of the statute or ordinance is defeated, and the fellowship becomes simply an exhibition for a limited period. In my own college, the Ordinance of 1857 had provided that whenever the number of fellows in lioly orders was less than five, no person should be eligible to the vacant fellowship who was not already “ a priest or deacon of the United Chui-ch of England and Ireland.” On the petition of the college the ordinance was so altered as to make a “ clerical ” election nece.‘!sary only if there should not be “ five fellows in holy orders, or under the requirements of talcing “ holy orders as hy this clause 'provided.” That requirement was made to be, or not being then in “ holy orders shall be required to take deacon’s orders at least within three years from the day of Q 0223. ^ P 114 “ his election, and in default thereof shall vacate his fellowship ; Provided always, that it shall be “ lawful to the Provost and fellows in the case of sickness, or for any other very urgent cause, to “ grant a delay for a period not exceeding six months.” A “ clerical ” vacancy having occurred, there were in 1877 among the candidates one gentleman of the Jewish persuasion and (it was said) one Unitarian. We had no right to ask any questions or to exact any promise ; it Avas thus quite possible that a “ clerical ” fellowship might have been held for three years by one who avoAved himself not even a Christian. It is and has been, I know, argued that by electing men already in orders the choice of the college is disadvantageously narrowed. I reply that the very first election of that kind held at Oriel gave us a gentleman who was for several years one of the most useful tutors and deans I remember i]i the course of 36 years’ experience. I might add that our professors of Greek, Latin, logic, astronomy (Savilian) natural philosophy (Sedleian), ancient history, modern history (Regius), Anglo-Saxon, arc at present clerics, that the deputy-professor of comparative philology and one of the most eminent professors of moral and metaphysical philosophy we ever had were both clerics. It is too obvious to need saying that if fellowships are to be reserved “ specially connected with “ the duty of giving religious instruction or conducting religious services in the different colleges ” they should be conferred on men of some experience, and therefore on men of some standing, in holy orders. (2.) Headships. — I think that for all Headships of those colleges which undertake general education “ the qualification of holy orders should continue to be necessary.” I apprehend that the numerically greater weight of opinion will probably be to the contrary, lay fellows and liberal clerics being in most colleges in an overwhelming majority. It is incredible that, if any graduate of any British or Irish university in holy orders be admissible, a college Avould ever find a real difficulty in securing a good Head ; even though he must necessarily be in holy orders. The Universities Tests Bill, throwing open all, or nearly all, the “emoluments” in the universi- ties, attracted (perhaps in consequence) so slightly the attention of British parents to its bearing- on the universities as places of religion and education that it is not easy to urge (that Avhich nevertheless I believe to be the truth) that a clerical Head properly chosen would, more than the most eminent layman, command the confidence of the country generally. If, however, the “ qualification “ of holy orders ” for the Headship of any or of all such colleges shall be abolished, I think it Avill be absolutely necessary to alter the present mode of ap])ointment of the heads, say by giving it — ] . To the Crown. 2. To the Chancellor of the university, 3. To a body of electors wider than, or differently constituted from the present body. Certainly it seems to me unwise to leave the power of appointment exclusively in the hands of a bai-e majority of men of whose religious opinions nothing can be known certainly, very little even probably, and of Avhom it is likely that the greater part will, by impending changes, be young- men. As I gather that references to particular colleges are not excluded, I beg to be allowed to append a letter marked A, written in November 1871, in reference to changes then proposed in respect to the Provostship of Oriel College, to Mr. Gladstone at that time pr’emier. Question 3. — Prize Felbnvships. (a) Durafiov. — The object of creating prize felloAvships is, I suppose, to help able men of small or of no private means in surmounting the difficulties whicli in their case beset the earlier years devoted to any profession, but especially to that of law or to that of medicine. ^ 1 p 11 1 - 1 j. II f(l.) for not less than seven d „ I should propose that such fellowships be tenable | ^2.) for not more that tAvelveJ the day of election, (6.) Terms. — The first class should be subject to no restriction. The second class should be vacated only by marriage. I would give to every prize fellow the option, to be declared within one year from the day of his election, of either tenure. I would admit to a share in the government and administration of the college only so many of the senior prize fellows as may be equal in number to the other fellows of the college. Otherwise the residents may have burthens laid upon them which the non-residents touch not with their little fingers ; and that from pure ignorance. Question 4. — Fellotvships other than Prize Fellowships. — These I think should be tenable for life ; but to be vacated, 1. By fixilure to reside in Oxford for 10 weeks in each term ; exception being made in case of duly certified iUness, and only so long as such certificate could be produced. 2. By marriage, except in certain cases specified beforehand in statute or ordinance. I do not think it advisable that such fellowship should be vacated by acquisition of property or of acadamical office after election ; though it might be weU to adopt some limit on eligibility. Question 5. — Scholarships. — Scholarships should, I, think, be divided into two classe.s : 1, Those to be awarded simply for superiority in competitive examinations. 115 2. Those to which none should be eligible who could not prove need (the term liberally inter- preted) ; but no regard to be paid to comparative need among candidates once admitted. Class 1 should be inconsiderable in money value. Class 2 should be of such money value as to give substantial help towards 'tiecessary expenses. ExhihUionn . — I think it very desirable, and thoroughly in accordance with the spu'it of our ancient founders and benefactors, that there should be placed at the disposal of the Head and tutors of each college an annual sum sufficient to enable them to help, privately and from time to time, students who though unable to fight their way in a competitive examination ffiften from previous poverty and consequent disadvantages in training) may have approved themselves as deserving of help by good conduct and by steady diligence. Under the conditions specified above I do not think it “ desirable to aim at uniformity in the “ value and conditions of tenure of scholarships on the foundations of the different colleges.” Modern changes have tended to convert what was meant for the assistance of the deserving though not brilliant poor scholar into the means of gratifying the vanity of colleges. We have seen colleges eagerly competing for those as scholars who were likely to reflect credit upon the colleges in whicii they were enrolled, to the disregard of real need of help. I should be glad to see such need practically recognised. Question 6 . — To make provision in every college for the elementary instruction of all under- graduates in natural science would be, I think, (1) not practicable, (2) as being unnecessary, not desirable. If, as I expect and hope, the contributions to be made by, or to be levied upon, the colleges shall place ample revenues at the disposal of the university, the necessary instruction will be better ffiven by university professors and their assistants in ample buildings and with ample appliances. Even in the classical subjects and others required of all undergraduates by the university examinations, elementary instruction has nevei- yet been able to rise above a very low minimum. D. P. Chase. St. Mary Hall, June 6, 1878. LETTER TO MR. GLADSTONE, REFERRED TO IN MR. CHASE’S LETTER. (Private.) Oriel College, Oxford, Sir, . Nov. 2, 1871. At the last "Stated General Meeting of the Provost and Fellows” of Oriel College, it was resolved : — " That two or more members of the college be appointed a deputation to apply to the Prime Minister, and, if they think fit, to the Lord Chancellor and any other member of the Government who may take an interest in the subject, for the assistance of the Government in the removal of the statutory restrictions which confine the choice of a Provost to persons in holy orders, and to express the desire of the college for such removal. Mr. Poste, Mr. Munro, and Dr. Bryce to be a deputation.” In the event of your granting an interview to the deputation thus appointed, I desire as a senior fellow of the college, to be allowed to call your attention, and that of Her Majesty’s Government generally, to some points which that deputation may not think it within their commission to touch upon, but which appear to me, and I hope may also be judged by you to be, worthy of serious consideration. To the removal of the particular restriction named in the resolution I offer no objection : because to retain it seems to me inconsistent with the University Tests Act of last session, which throws open all our fellowships but five to persons not under the obligation of professing any religious belief But I wish to be allowed to point out that, if future legislative action should be limited to the simple abolition of that particular restriction, the election of a Provost will be unfettered by an}'’ limitation other than the will of a bare majority of the actual fellows at the time of any such election.^ Under the original statutes of the college (extracts from which are sent herewith) The Provost was to be — 1. In holy orders (as the statutes have always been interpreted and as the resolution above quoted assumes), 2. One of the actual fellows of the coUege at the time of the vacancy, 3. Chosen by the actual fellows of the college at the time of a vacancy, 4. But, if the electors should be unable to agree in such an election, all those for whom votes should have been given (omnes in hac parte electi) were to be presented to the Lord Chancellor who, out ol the number so presented was to make choice at his own discretion. The "Ordinance concerning Oriel College framed by the University Commissioners” removed the second and fourth restrictions : so that, at present, " the greatest number of the electors present ” may elect any person in holy orders " who in their judgment shall be most fit for the government " of the college as a place of religion, learning, and education.” The University Tests Act of last session removed every restriction upon the qualification of eleven out of the sixteen electors other than the provision in the Ordinance " that no person shall be “ eligible who shall not have taken the degree of Bachelor of Arts in some University in Great “ Britain or Ireland, or who shall have attained the age of twenty -six years, or who shall be in posses- P 2 116 “ sion of any benefice, property, pension, or office, which, if acquired after election, would have “ disqualified him from continuing a fellow.” The remova lof the first restriction upon the choice of a Provost (contemplated in the resolution) will therefore leave such choice wholly, and irrevocably, dependent upon the will of a bare majority of the actual fellows present and voting at such election ; the probability being that at least one fourth of the sixteen will have been fellows only for a very short time. I respectfully submit “cum dicti Prrepositi indnstria et honestas atque diligentia diet® domui prm cfeteris necessaria sit et opportuna, ac per ejus negligentiam et insolentiam, quod absit, dictas domni imminere possint dispendia ac pericula graviora,” (“original statutes ”) that tiiis would be a very unsatisfactory state of the law governing such election. I su|)pose it may be expected of, certainly may be allowed to, any one who objects to chan"es, whether already effected or proposed, to make suggestions for remedying the evils Avhich he apprehends. I propose therefore that, in any case, the control by the Crown througli the Lord Chancellor, reserved by the provision in the original statutes (numbered 4 above), be restored. But it mi'^ht be well, as a check upon frivolous or vexatious candidature, to define tlie proportion of votes given for any candidate which should entitle such candidate to be presented to the Lord Chancellor. I propose also, though with some doubts as to the efficacy of the provision after the University Tests Act shall have had time to take full effect, that the number of the electors be increased by the addition to the actual fellows at the time of such election of all who, within a given period (say ten years), shall have been fellows of the college. I have sent a copy of this letter to the members of the deputation : in order that, should an interview be granted to them by you or by any other member of Her Majesty’s Government, they may be fully prepared to answer the objections and suggestions contained in it. I am allowed by the Provost of Oriel (to whom I have submitted this letter) to state that it has his general approval. I am, &c. D. P. Chase. To the Right Hon. W. E. Gladstone, M.P., First Lord of the Treasury. FROM THE REVEREND PROFESSOR FOWLER. My Lords and Gentlemen, I WILL endeavour brieflv to answer the questions proposed in vour ciroilar letter, dated May 1878. I — The fii’st question bears on a subject of peculiar difficulty and delicac\'. I feel that it is almost impossible to propose any mode of providing for religious instruction and religious services the colleges, which may not be open to grave objections. In schools, similar difficulties do not occur. But in college^, or at least in the reading colleges, where there is brought together a number of young men of considerable intellectual activity, priding themselves on their independence, and frequently of a very critical habit of mind, I think that there is great danger lest any special means taken for the purpose of promoting religious influences should be attended by exactly the opposite result to the one aimed at. Hence, T deprecate the appointment of any officer specially charged with the religious instruction of the college. Unless he were a person of remarkable tact, and of character and ability far beyond the average, I believe he would find it very difficult to maintain his position among either the fellows or the undergraduates. This class of officers would probably soon receive a nick-name. Their lectures and conversation would be not unlikely to supply the material for ridiculous stories, and I shall fear that their office, instead of inspiring respect, might come to be regarded with a certain amount of contempt. Indeed, I can conceive of few things more likely to be disastrous to the cause of religion in Oxford than the existence in the various colleges of men specially charged with the religious teaching and the religious ministrations, who were in any way, regarded as form- ing a distinct class, separated in tastes, habits and opinions fi’om the other fellows. The same objection would not, I think, apply Avith anything like equal force to some such regu- lation as the following ; that one or other of the principal educational officers of the college, that is to say, the head, the vice-gerent, the dean, or one of the tutors, should always be in holy orders. In a large college the requirements might be extended to two such officers. One recommendation of this plan Avould be that such an officer Avouhl generally be found on the existing staff, and that, therefore, special elections of a clerical officer Avould be comparatively rare. Moreover, this officer would have other functions in the college besides his clerical duties, and would, therefore, not be .separated, or be liable to the suspicion of being separated, in tastes and pursuits from the other felloAvs, as would, I fear, be the case with a felloAv elected specially and exclusively for the purpose of exercising religious functions. But I am myself of opinion that, saving the obligation of maintaining the chapel service on Sundays and on the mornings of week-days, it would not be desirable to make any special provi- sions Avhatever with regard to the religiou.s services or religious instruction of the colleges. Clerical fellowships had, at one time, fallen into disrepute in Oxford, from the odium Avhich here, almost more than in any other place, attaches to restriction and privilege. But I believe if the statutable obligations to enter into holy orders were once removed altogether, a fair proportion of fellows in 117 every college would soon be found voluntarily to seek them. Such religious instruction as it miglit be desirable to impart to the undergraduates would then probably be provided in the least obtrusive, and therefore the most effectual manner. It seems to me that many persons have been misled, by what I cannot but regard as a false analogy between a school and a college, into supposing that far more can be done to promote the religious instruction and religious edification of undergraduates than is either feasible or desirable. Men of mature age often forget, or have ceased to realise, the wide interval, moral and intellectual, which generally separates young men from boys. A boy is usually receptive ; his tendency is to accept implicitly the opinions of his teacher. A young man of any intellectual vigour usually takes a pride in trying to think for himself, and looks with suspicion on any opinions which are pro- pounded to him dogmatically. Above all things, he will not be drilled into religious practices or sentiments, and the attempt so to drill him is often followed by most disastrous results. As a rule, I believe that, in the matter of religion, far the best course is to leave an undergraduate to the influence of his home, of his friends, and of the voluntary religious agencies, which in a place like Oxford will always be abundant. I conclude, then, that it is not deskable for the Commissioners to lay down any special regu- lations with regard to the religious instruction of the undergraduates, but that such regulations may safely be left to the discretion of the colleges themselves, as has hitherto been the case. While the university continues to require religious knowledge in the examinations, the colleges maybe trusted to supply lectures on it. Any attempt to .supply religious instruction of a more spiritual and practical character might, I fear, be attended by more evil than good. The chapel services should be maintained, and a sum of money should be set apart for their maintenance, but I think it would not be wise, even under this head, for the Commissioners to lay down any minute regulations. II. — I have already, in my last answer, expressed my opinion on the second question. I believe clerical restrictions on fellowships to be most unwise, and to defeat most effectually the objects for which they are imposed. In Oxford, the result of the fellowships having been divided into two classes, one open, the other restricted to clergymen, has been to associate with the latter class the idea of inferiority. Were the clerical restriction removed, ] believe, as I have said above, that many of the fellows would voluntarily enter into holy orders ; and it is plain, I think, that persons voluntarily taking upon themselves their obligations would be likely to receive more recognition and to exercise a more wholesome influence in their colleges than those who might be suspected of having done so from interested motives. The clerical restriction attaching to most of the head.ships is likely, in the future, I think, to be extremely injurious to the interests of the colleges out of the university. It most unduly narrows the area of selection to offices which ought to be conferred on men of eminence in science, literature, or educational work. Now that the number of lay teachers in the university and tlie colleges has so largely' increased, this restriction will be felt as more and more of an injustice to individuals as well as a serious drawback to the reputation and educational efficiency of the colleges themselves. If it be thought necessary that the clerical restriction should be attached to some office or other in the college, I would refer the Commissioners back to the suggestion I have made in reference to this subject in my answer to the first question. III. — “ Prize fellowships ” should, I think, be tenable for not more than seven years, and their value should not exceed 200f.. a year or thereabouts. So far as possible the regulations as to the value and tenure of these fellowships should be uniform throughout the university. I would place these fellowships under no restrictions as to celibacy, property, or residence. It is, however, I think, a serious question whether fellows having no permanent interest in the college should be placed upon the governing body, and, if they' are placed upon it, whether their powers should not be, in certain respects restricted. This difficulty might, perhaps, be met by the institution of an Educa- tional Council and an Estates Committee in each college. IV. — The answer to this question is much more complex and difficult than to the last. It is desirable, I think, to attach certain fellowships to tutorships and lectureships, these fellowships to determine, as a rule, when the incumbent ceases to hold the office im question. It is also desirable that the total value (fellowship included) of the tutorships and lectureships should be of variable amount, according to the standing and efficiency of the officers, and according to the amount and quality of the work undertaken by them. Again, it is most desirable to attach to tlie colleges men eminent in science, literature, and art. Lastly', it is, I believe, admitted on all hands that fellow- ships should be attached to professorships and readerships, or, at least, that the proceeds of a certain number of fellowships should be paid into a common fund for the remuneration of these offices. The scheme which, with some he.sitation, I Avould propose, is the following - There should be, in addition to the prize fellowships, two classes of fellowships ; one, the senior fellowships, with a stipend of about 400Z. a year ; the other, the junior fellowships, with a stipend of about 300^. a year. The tutors and lectui-ers should, in the first instance, be elected into the latter class ; but, after a certain number of years’ service, either in their own or in any other college of the university, they should be capable of being elected into the former class. Again, after a long period of service — say 20 years, or, if that be thought too short, 25 years — it should be competent to the college to retain them in either class of fellowship, at its discretion, even if they cease to hold the office to which their present or former fellowship was attached. The fellowship would thus serve as a pension, and the college would, from time to time, be able to control the number of pensions thus held. Moreover the tutorial fund should be distributed in unequal portions amongst the various tutors and lecturers, regard being had to their seniority, so far as possible to their efficiency, and to the amount and quality of the work undertaken by them. This distribution should V ;j 118 be made, from time to time, by the Educational Council, if there be such a body, or by the head in conjunction with one or two of the principal officers of the college. It is now, I believe, acknow- ledged on all hands that the income of a tutor or lecturer is usually too large at the beginnino- of his careei-, and too small as he becomes older and more experienced. I should wish it to vary (including the fellowship) between the limits of about 400^. a year and about 800^. or 900^. In tilling up the more valuable tutorships and lectureships, I think it should be open to the colleo-e to pass over the existing tutors and lecturers, and to elect into the vacant fellowship and tutorship or lectureship, as the case may be, from any other college in the university, or even in Cambrido-e. Considering the very early age at which men now become tutors or lecturers of a college, I think the certainty of rising by mere seniority might offer a great temptation to sloth and the inefficient discharge of their duties. In addition to the prize fellowships and the tiitorial fellowships, 1 should wish to sec a certain number of fellowships in each college appropriated to the reward of men eminent in science, litera- ture, or art. Under this class it should also be open to a college to elect a professor or reader of the university, even if he be already endowed with a fellowship or fellowships in that or any other college. Unless there be some provision of this kind, I think the stipends proposed by the Commis- sion in their recent circular will be quite inadequate to induce men of the highest eminence in their several departments to become candidates for the Oxford professorships ; nor will the professorships and readerships be incentives, as they ought to be, to the college tutors and le(;turers to perfect themselves in various branches of study. I have alway’-s thought it a singular misfortune that, in Oxford, almost the only real prizes have been the headships, the qualifications for which are of a miscellaneous character ; while the professorships, which are regarded as more peculiarly the reward of learning, have been placed, from a pecuniary point of view, in so inferior a position. Even with the addition of a fellowship, the stipend of a professor, though he belonged to the higher class, as defined by the Commission, would not equal that of a county^ court judge, and would be considerably inferior to that of the canons of Christ Church, as well as of many of the Heads of colleges. There would be this advantage in allowing a fellowship, or an additional fellowship, to be conferred on a professor, that it might serve as a recognition of peculiar eminence or of faithful service rendered during many years to the miiversity. The cases in which fellowships were thus conferred would, pi'obably, be by no means common, and hence the distinction as well as the augmentation of income, might come to be a considerable incentive to literary and educational work. The more prizes there are in a profession, and the more graduated those prizes are, the more likely is the work of the profession to be efficiently performed. The fellowships, or additional fellowships, coifferred on professors and readers, might, in some cases, be conferred conditionally on their tenure of office, in other cases, for life. In the latter case, the fellowship might wholly or partly supply the place of a pension when the office was vacated. Men of eminence in science, literature, or art, who were not professors or readers of the university, might be elected, in some cases, for life ; in others, vdiere the object was to subsidize some si^ecial work, for a term of years. As a rule, I presume, persons elected under this head would enjoy fellowships of the more valuable class, but it need not necessarily be so, and I would leave to the colleges complete dis- cretion in this matter. In no case do I think that the celibacy restriction on fellowships should be retained. It might, however, be necessary to ein})ower the college to insist on the I'esidencc of a certain number of the educational officers within the college walls during term time. The present propei’ty restrictions should also be abolished. » V. It is, I think, of the greatest importance that the value and conditions of tenure of scholar- ships should, so far as possible, be uniform in the various colleges. The utmost limit of the value of a scholarship should be 80^. a year, and the ordinary tenure should be four years. I should be glad if scholars could be elected, in the first instance, for two, or at the most three years, the college having the power to re-elect from year to year, providiirg that, unless under exceptional circumstances, no scholar shall be )-e-elected after the close of his foui’th year from matriculation. This system would supply a most effective check on idleness. As a general rule it would also be desirable that there should be a limit of age, beyond which no person could be a candidate for election to a scholarship in the first instance. This limit I should myself jfiace at 19, but I would exempt from it a certain proportion of the scholarships, say one- fourth or one-fifth, so as to meet exceptional cases. Under this head I may also state my opinion that it would be of great service to many of the poorer and more deserving students if the Head and fellows, or the Educational Council, of each college were entrusted with a certain proportion of the scholarship fund to be expended at their dis- cretion in augmenting the stipends of those scholars who might be in real need of assistance. A portion of this fund might also, in some colleges, be employed for the purpose of assisting some of the poorer and more hard-working of the commoners. To attain these objects I would, if necessar}', limit the ordinary value of the scholarshi]« to a sum less than that which I have named above, say GOl. a year. Many scholars have considerable private means, or bring up with them valuable exhibitions from school. To such men GO/, a year would be a handsome prize. Many men on the other hand have hardly any means at all, except the proceeds of their college scholarship. In cases of this kind the college might, with great advantage, make larger grants out of the funds at its dis- posal. Again, there is an intermediate class of men to whom a small grant of 201. or 30/. for the purchase of books, oi' as a contribution to the expenses of vacation reading, would sometimes be most serviceable.! U9 VI. Wliile fully recognising the advantage of elementary instruction in natural science, I should be most averse to placing such instruction, except where, as in the case of elementary mechanics, it could be derived mainly from text-books, in the hands of the colleges. Natural science is, at present, the only brancli of instruction in which the university vindicates its right of teaching, an 1 I should regard it as a most retrograde step to transfer the su))ervision of such instruction from the university professors to college tutors or lecturers. If some slight elementary knowledge of natural science is to be required from all students, I believe that the best course would be to exact it at or soon after matriculation. But if anything moi’e ambitious is contemplated, and it is intended to make some branch or branches of natural science, to be studied experimentally, obligatory on aU students, I think the instruction should be organised under university professors and readers. Should it, however, be determined to follow what I conceive to be the bad precedent set in the case of the older studies, and to make the centre of instruction collegiate rather than academical, T would suggest that it would be quite sufficient to establish laboratories in some five or six of the larger colleges, and that the students of the other colleges might be admitted to them on payment of a fee. I have, &c. Thomas Fowler, Sub-rector and late Tutor of Lincoln College, Lincoln College, June 11, 1878. Professor of Logic. FROM THE REVEREND H. B. GEORGE, M.A., FELLOW AND LECTURER, NEW COLLEGE. New College, Oxford, June 17, 1878. The undersigned desires to submit to the University Commissioners the following remarks on two of the questions suggested by them in paper No. 10. 4. Assuming that the majority of fellow.ships will be held in the future on the condition of residing ill Oxford and teaching, I should like to put iu a plea iii fivour of continuing .such fellowships for life after a reasonabl}^ long term of .service. Some form of pension must be adopted everywhere, and it would be easy to provide that a pensioner who retained his fellowship should receive a smaller pension than he would otherwise have been entitled to. And by making such fellowships additional to the normal number (the pecuniary bui’den on the college resources being merely trans- ferred from the pension fund to the fellowshq) fund), there would be no interruption to the regular succession to fellowships. I believe that the college would gain in two ways by retaining on its governing body men of long experience, and by facilitating retirement; and from the point of view of the individual it seems to me enough to kill a man to deprive him at once not only of his active duties as a teacher, bxit also of all participation in the interests to which his whole life has hitherto been devoted. 5. I doubt the expediency of equalizing the value of scholarships throughout the university, especially seeing that there exist a good many of too recent foundation to be subject to the powers of the Commissioners. But I should like to see some very sweeping changes made in the value and tenure of scholarships, and this for several reasons. It is at once undesirable that rich men should enjoy endowments which they do not need, and that they should be debarred from gaining the honour of a scholarship if their abilities entitle them to it. Moreover, I should like somewhat greater hold over scholars than is given by the power of deprivation, which is practically only inflicted for the gravest oflences ; and experience has proved (notably at St. John’s College, Cambi-idge) the immense advantage of having a fund out of which the college can quietly help poor and deserving men. It being difficult to explain my meaning without figures, I take a concrete instance. New College gives away annually eight scholarships of 80^. tenable for five years, or 3,200i. in money, besides tuition free. I would have the scholarships, eo nomine, imply only the honour of a scholar’s gown, and tuition free. Then I would award each year four exhibitions of 70(. each, and four of 60^. each, tenable for three years, but capable of being extended to fom- or five years if the holder deserved it. In a general way these would be held by the eight scholars, but a rich man would, I should hope, decline one, though I see no practical means of insisting on this. These exhibitions would amount to a maximum of 2,600(. The remaining 600^., together with any sums which might from time to time not be required of the 2,600(., should form a fund out of which to help poor and deserving men whether scholars or not, but with a preference to the scholars. Hereford B. George, M.A., Fellow and Lectm-er of New College. FROM PROFESSOR HOLLAND. All Souls’ College, Oxford, Sir, • June, 17, 1878, In reply to your circular letter No. 10, I beg to state my opinion very briefly upon the subjects numbei'ed 2-0 in that letter. 2. The qualification should not, except for the purposes specified, continue to be necessary. 3. The same rule should not apply to all colleges. In the case of All Souls’ I approve of the pro- posal contained in the “ Resolutions ” lately forwarded by the college to the Commissioners. P 1 120 For life. Daring such tenure. For seven years. 4. Other fellowships should be classified as follows ; — (1.) Awarded for attained eminence in literature, &c. - (2.) By way of pension _ _ _ _ (3.) Tenable by virtue of a university or college office - (4.) Granted as endowment of research No fellowship should be granted for a fixed term of less than seven jmars; assistance of researcli, Ac., for shorter periods, or during the execution of specified work, should be granted rather in tlie shape of money, free battels, or free use of rooms. 5. Uniformity pi'obably undesirable. G. Should it be thought desirable to provide such elementary instruction at the university, tliis should be done at a few centres, and not in every college. I am, &c. The Secretary, T. E. Holland, University of Oxford Commission. (Fellow). FROM THE REVEREND T. IT. T. HOPKINS, FELLOW AND TUTOR, MAGDi\LEN COLLEGE. My Lord, In answer to certain questions sent by the University of Oxford Commissioners, I beg to state my opinion as follows : — 1 and 2. That religious instruction and religious services should be provided for by appointing a limited number of clerical fellows on whom should devolve the obligation of providing for such instruction and services, but that the qualification of holy orders should not be necessary for other fellowships. 3. That prize fellowships should be tenable for seven years and be subject to no other restriction. 4. That ordinary fellowships should be held by residents doing work of some kind either for their college or the university. 5. That absolute uniformity in the value and conditions of tenure of scholarships is not desirable, the approach to it as at present existing being quite sufficient for all practical purposes. I should like, however, to see some rule by which scholars should be elected for two years in the first instance; the scholarship to be continued for the full period if the holder should prove himself worthy of retaining it. G. I do not think it either practicable or desirable to make provision in every college for the elementary instruction of every undergraduate in natural science. The grammar of' natural science ought to be taught at school. Tlie Natural Science Pass as well as Honour Schools in the univer- sity would then find no lack of candidates for whom the university, by means of the museum stall', and colleges by combined lectures, would find no difficulty in making provision. I should much like to see mathematics more insisted on than at present. Ignorance of this branch of science acts very detrimentally to the interests of natural science. An undergraduate may pass through his whole career without the slightest knowledge of algebi'a or geometry. (He must know a little of one of these subjects for responsions.) This might be remedied by substituting compulsory mathematics at moderations for the pittance of logic which is at pre.sent required. I am, &c. T. H. T. Hopkins, Magdalen College, 15th June 1878. Fellow and Senior Tutor. FROM THE REGIUS PROFESSOR OF DIVINITY. Exeter College, Oxford, Sir, . , June 14, 1878. In reply to a paper of questions sent to hie by desire of the University Commissioners, I beg leave to submit the following observations : — 1. It seems to me eminently desirable that in cases where the statutes prescribe that the Plead of any college should necessarily be in holy orders this limitation should be retained. It may appear at first sight unfair to exclude from the possibility of election to the highest office in the colleo-e lay fellows who may have done good service as tutors, but in my judgment the higher interests of the college as an educational body outweigh this apparent unfairness. For a college is to be considered as a great domestic institution, not as a mere place of learning. The very object of its existence is to foster a common life where moral and religious influences must be combined with intellectual culture. Opportunities of common worship, definite Christian teaching, moral and almost pastoral admonition, ought to enter into the general system of education of young men. To help towards securing these it is very important that the Head of the college should be felt to be the predominating influence in the social system. And this he is not likely to be unless 121 as a clei'gyinau he is able to take part in the services of the college chapel, to preach from time to time to the students, and to give such counsel or reproof as proceed naturally from one who is invested with the authority of a clergyman. I am perfectly certain that the majority of parents prefer that the heatl of the college to which they send their sons should be a clergyman. Tliey have more confidence in the general administration of the collegiate system when this arrangement is preserved. In several colleges at the present time the majority of the lay fellows never attend any of the services in the college chapel, and consider it no part of their duty to look after the moral welfare of their pupils. This makes it all the more essential that the head of a college should be a clergy- man, pledged by his obligations to promote the moral and spiritual welfare of those who are placed under his charge. By his authority and position, as well as by his personal example, he ought to give the tone to the society around him ; to be the guardian of morality and religion, and the representative of the principle that education implies more than intellectual instruction. To help in carrying out the true idea of the collegiate .system it is also requisite that some of the fellows should be in holy orders (the proportion may rightly vary in different societies). No employment of paid chaplains from without who are not members of the governing body will suffice. Such officers would have no real influence with the undergraduates ; they would not be looked up to with respect, nor would they have any opportunity of personal intercourse with the young men. Considering that the head of the college is, as it were, the father and master of a large household, permanently placed in authority, and not constantly changing like the fellows, he ought to be the truide, friend, and adviser of all ; and for these purposes he will be far more efficient as a clergyman than as a layman. As a clergyman he can say and do many things which might be resented if they came from a layman. The secret of the success of such schoolmasters as Dr. Arnold and Dr. Moberly lay in their use of the pulpit of the school chapel. I believe that a like powerful influence could be found in the college chapel. On the other hand I am convinced that there is no surer way to introduce ultimately an exclusively secular system in the colleges than by the abolition of clerical headships. I think it desirable that scholarships in the different colleges .should be uniform in value and in the limitation of age of the candidates. I very much doubt the expediency of requiring from every candidate for a degree some know- ledge of natural science if this requirement is to be enforced by Parliamentary enactment or by ordinance of the University Commissioners. It is for the interest of the whole country that the universities should be left independent in framing the details of examinations. If the universitie.s are not fit to be trusted with the function of determining what is on the whole the best course of instruction to be adopted, they have lost their raison d'etre. All the improvements in examination statutes within the last .30 years have proceeded from within, and not fiom any external authority. I venture respectfully to urge that it will be an instance of the mischief of over-legislation if any interference with this ancient freedom is introduced. I have no special remarks to offer on other (|uestions submitted to me by the Commissioners. I feel most strongly about the first part on which 1 have touched, clerical headships. If colleges are not to subside into mere boarding-houses their inmates must be governed as one society by a common system of discipline, moral and religious, and the best security for the efficient operation of this sy,stera will be its administration by a clerical head and governor. I have, &c. William Ince, For 21 years Sub-Rector and Tutor of Exeter College, now Regius Professor of Divinity and Canon of Christ Church. FROM DR. ROLLESTON, LINACRE PROFESSOR OF ANATOMY AND PHYSIOLOGY. Oxford, June 21, 1878. 1. With reference to the question of making proper and effectual provision lor religious instruc- tion and religious services in the different colleges, 1 am very distinctly of opinion that it is better if it be possible to set into operation any self-acting agencies which may be available than to trust to arbitrary enactments. It is a serious thing to lay down such a principle as this as regards a matter of such grave consequence, but I am emboldened to state my conviction to this effect ; firstly, by a consideration of the success which has attended the acting upon this principle in other lines of human activity and interest ; and secondly, by my knowledge of the great extent to which a feeling of opposition to the particular interests concerned has developed itself of late years in several strata of society both in this country and in several othei’s. This feeling of opposition I believe to have been if not entirely produced, yet very largely increased, by the adoption of ill- considered methods for combating it. The plan which I should wish to see set into work would be the placing of theology on an equal, and on not more than an equal footing as far as legislative compulsion went with the other departments of knowledge, requisite for the constitution of a university. This, to put the matter in a practical form, can only be done here by giving the subject a certain proportion of fellowships and professorships. And having done this I should be content to leave such fellows and professors to maintain and u{)hold or to advocate and introduce religious instruction and religious services into the system of domiciliaiy management and discipline of the colleges to which they were attached. Q C25!3. 122 I feel very strongly that such a proposal as this will seem a very hazardous one to many persons ; but hazard is a less evil than the acquiescence in positive mischief, and the provision of an agency which will at least meet the evil of ignorance, and prevent it being currently assumed that theology is a thing of the past and religious observances an entire anachronism, is at least of some value. I doubt and have long doubted whether, either on the ordinary principles of human nature, or upon the experience of the past, or upon an acquaintance with the feelings and spirit of the present time, it is wise to attempt to protect the interests of religion in any other way than by securing that its claims shall be fairly presented without either prejudice or protection to the consideration of all persons under education in State-recognised institations. The evils of ignorance of religious matters, and the assumption that theology is a subject of the same kind as alchemy and witchcraft are, if not the greatest evils which we have to deal with in this line, at least evils which can be prevented and remedied. There are others which I am well aware of, but I do not see that it is within the competence of human legislation to prevent or remedy them. It is easy, however, to secure that a subject shall be studied ; if studied, its claims to con- sideration will be duly advocated, and it will in a self-acting manner secure for itself its due place, power, and influence. That the Commissioners may not think that these views have been taken up hastily, T will here quote a passage from a j)aper printed and circulated by myself on the subject of the establishment here of a theological school more than 10 years ago ; — “A policy of confidence may, I do not deny, be sometimes less safe than a policy of suspicion ; but, on the other hand, all must allow than it is vain to attempt to secure by mere legislative enact- ments a higher level of belief, feeling, or practice that can exist in the atmosphere of public opinion which at any time may be surrounding us. Congregation, it is true, may be at one time sceptical, and at another fanatical ; but it is plain that the same may be said of any other electing body. And for combating scepticism and fanaticism, the only agencies which we can command are the sound learning and labours which are much wanted in this age of ignorance and idleness, and which in all ages have been as efficient against them as instructive enactments have been useless.” In this connexion I should wish to draw the attention of the Commissioners to the statute, p. 127> Stat. Univ. Oxoni., 1878, v. (vi.) vi. 2, clause 3, whereby the degree of B.D. is limited to persons in priest’s orders. I am informed that this restriction has been abolished in the University of Dublin, and I can see many real and several technical reasons for abolishing it here. With these I need not trouble the Commissioners, who will no doubt be acquainted with the fact that it is not an unexampled occurrence for a man to take honoui’s in the School of Theology without intending to take or subsequently taking holy orders. 2. In answer to the second question of the Commissioners, I have to say that I do not think it for the advantage of the objects aimed at by the giving of religious instruction, and by the con- ducting of religious services, that persons not already in holy orders should be elected even to offices entailing the performance of such duties on the understanding that they should after such election take orders. A fortiori, therefore, I should be averse to seeing holy orders made necessary for the tenure of offices not necessarily entailing any such functions. Religious instruction, I think, and the experience, I am glad to think, of this place at present shows, may be very well given by a layman ; and as my answer to the ]>revious question shows, I think we ought and shall do best to trust to the operation of healthily and naturally attained influence of theology for obtaining a due supply of clergymen. But I should not be disinclined to allow colleges from time to time to supply themselves under emergencies Avith already ordained ministers for the performance of divine service. Such persons, hoAvever, should not only be chosen from amongst persons already in orders, but they should be so chosen on the ground of being distinguished and eminent amongst such persons ; such distinction and eminence to be judged of either by examination or otherwise, and preferably perhaps by some published performance. If we choose men for the performance of ministerial functions who are not already ministers, we shall put a temptation upon some men to put a strain upon their consciences and beliefs, and thus establish a test of a bad type ; if we choose men for the performance of minis- terial duties who are not eminent men, Ave outwardly and visibly degrade the performance of such duties. It is an evil thing to hear a feUow elected by open competition compare himself with a “ chaplain fellow,” and grudge this latter his equal right of Amting ; it is a more evil thing still to have an arrangement in force whereby undergraduates and servants see the person who is entrusted with the performance of divine service for a college placed in a position distinctl}'’ inferior to that of the other officers of the college. The parallel case of the clergy as described, even if exaggeratedly, by Lord Macaulay in his history of a past age is instructiAm here. In one word a chaplain elected a fellow ad hoc may be and sometimes is a great mistake ; a chaplain simply elected a chaplain is always so. Before leaving this question and proceeding to Question 3, I wish to say that the con- dition of divinity in this university as a subject not for teaching but for learning — as, I mean, a department of knowledge per se — ’is, as far as I have been able to observe, anything but satisfactory. I trust the Commissioners may not think me impertinent in thus speaking of the condition of a study Avith which I have no official connexion. It is, however, a study in which, as the weekly and monthly periodical literature of our time shows, laymen do in this country at least still continue to interest themselves, and I have been told that it is to the printing of the university sermons that a weekly journal, published expressly for the younger members of the two older universities, trusts largely for the maintenance of its circulation. In spite of this we have such an authority as the 123 Dean of Chichester writing as follows, in 1875:* “I am as much of opinion now as I was in 1868 “ that the study of divinity here in Oxford is even in a prostrate condition.” When I think that we have more than 2,600 undergraduates upon our hooks, I feel that such a statement as this, with its suggestion of lost opportunities, is about as melancholy a one as can easily be made. It seems to me that we may hope to attain a better state of things by two lines of operation ; firstly, by assigning to the subject its due proportion of academical rewards ; and secondly, by ncf longer continuing to hamper its development by .surrounding it with protective enactments which, however well meant, are in these days only mischievous. 3. In answer to the third question, that relating to the duration and the conditions as to the assignment and the renewal of the tenure of ^.rize fellowships, I would say in the first place that a terminable fellowship of 200^. a year tenable for seven years will seem to a young man just entering or intending to enter upon a professional career a very considerable prize, and that if all fellowships were in the first instance to be such prize fellowships I should anticipate that the stimulating effect which the fellowship system exercises at present upon the studies of this place would be in no way diminished. The particular period of seven years may be recommended on the ground that it is about the period for which fellowships obtained by open competition have, if my memory serves me rightly, on the average been found to have been held. A longer period, such as 10 years, is, I think, to be deprecated, for to a man of but 21 or 22 such a period seems much longer than it does to older men, and it will, I apprehend, not be unknown to the Commissioners that persons just elected to fellow- ships have been heard to say, “You cannot expect a man to work directly after getting his “ fellowship.” The experience accumulated in this place in former days, when some fellowships were whilst others were not terminable, justifies the view that all fellowships throughout the university should be put upon the same footing as to tenure. A transition from a terminable fellowship to a permanent one might, in ordinary cases, be effected thus, the term of tenure of a terminable fellowship should be exclusive of any time during which the holder of it might have been resident in the university and employed either in the college as a lecturer, bursar, or tutor, or in the university as a public reader-. Thus a young man who after his course of undergraduate fife did not feel himself prepared to embark in the struggles of the larger- world would have the opportunity of discovering whether academical fife really suited his idiosyncrasy ; and this with the knowledge that if, as many men have found out by experience, this career should prove distasteful to him, he would still retain his prize fellowship intact to help him into some other career. Or, to contemplate a second possibility, a man might take up with academical work of the tutorial kind and fail in it without being himself conscious of the state of the case. And in such cases it is obvious that the painful and insidious duty of replacing such a functionary by some one better fitted to perform his duties would be made much more easy and more likely to be performed when his prize fellowship was known to be still available to him. The question of the renewal or non-renewal of a fellowship might, in the two ordinary cases of which I have spoken, that namely of a fellow holding a university professorship or other university educational office, and that of a fellow holding a college tutorship, lectureship, or bursarship, be left to the college concerned ; a three-fourths majority of the governing body being required for each renewal. There are, however, certain extraordinary cases in which it would be well to renew the tenure of a terminable fellowship ; and in these cases I am of opinion that the renewal should be confided to another electoral body. The extraordinary cases I have in view would be, — (a.) The cases of fellows who had made important contributions to science, literature, or art. (/3.) The cases of fellows who had been and were continuing to be assiduously prosecuting some important branch of study. It would of course have been impossible to have allowed a terminable fellowship to lapse if such an one had been held by either Mr. Abbay, or Mr. Gulliver, or Mr. Lewis, or Mr. Moseley whilst they were engaged upon the Eclipse, Transit of Venus, or “ Challenger ” Expeditions. And the same thing would be equally wrong in cases of men who could be demonstrably shown to be similarly engaged upon either literary, or historical, or scientific work at home. But the decision what is an important contribution to science, literature, or art is a trying one when it has to be left to the governing body of a man’s own college, which body is, I am happy to think, in this place usually made up, largely at least, of persons kindly disposed to each other.f * Note. — See pamphlet, “ Plea for the Study of Divinity in Oxford,” by John William Burgon, B.D., he. Oxford and London, James Parker & Co. 1875. f I take this opportunity of saying that quite irrespectively of animosities and heart-burnings, such as I have had occasions for observing elsewhere, being a malum per se, they are often found in other universities to be very serious impediments to the carrying on of the work of such institutions. At present in Oxford we do not find men to be actuated by personal feelings in such a way as to warp their decisions on questions affecting public interests. It is common enough for lamentably'wrong decisions to be come to in this place upon such questions, but I do not recollect any case in which mere personal dislike of the individuals connected with the opposed proposals counted for much ; whilst on the other hand, it is within my personal knowledge that men of considerable eminence amongst us have entirely set aside all consideration of personal matters when a public object was at stake. I am also well assured that a man who should give any ground for being suspected of being actuated by such considera- tion would instantly lose any influence he might have. It is highly desirable that this state of feeling should be preserved, and that the words of the old statute book, “ Lenitali ubique consuUum volumus" should still be our rule as to personal action. It is, however, made by the social and political changes now in progress increasingly difficult to maintain such a tone of feeling, .lealousy of others is the prevalent vice of democratized institutions ; and it is therefore of great consequence to devise, for the decision of personal questions, machinery and electoral apparatus which will have, as far as may be, such a self-acting character as to exclude as far as possible all personal motives. Q 2 124 The problem is the very common one, how to prevent jobbery without creating personal enmities. I should propose to treat it thus. The college concerned should by the restricted vote, the vote for two only out of three vacancies, contribute three members to a board of five, the other two members of which should be persons who, whilst they were prominently should also he constantly in relation with the university, and specially charged for periods of some length with the duty of acting in this capacity in the cases in question. They might be elected, preferably I am inclined to think, by the Privy Council Universities Committee, and either entirely or partly out of their own body. I think that in my evidence given to the Commissioners when they were sitting in Oxford I proposed a somewhat similar board as a good board, in my opinion, for the election to headships of colleges • and I am of opinion that the discharge of the le.sser responsibilities of which I have been writino' here wonld practise and exercise and so fit such a board for the more serious duty of electinfr a head of a house. Question 4 is, I think, answered by implication in the answers I have already given. On Question o I have not quite made up my mind. As regards Question 6, I think that natural science should have a due proportion of the fellowships available in every college, and 1 am of opinion that it would be bad at once for the subject and for the teachers and for the learners of it that it should be specialised in a single college, or that any single college should be specialised to it. But I should secure due representation of the subject in the way indicated just as I should do with theology and other subjects indispensable to the proper constitu- tion of a university curriculum. I should be decidedly averse to preventing any college from esta- blishing a laboratory at its own expense in any department of natural science which it might select. But I should limit my compulsory interference, if I had any such power, to enacting that each college should as'^ign a certain number of prize fellowships to this as to all other subjects of cardinal importance. But if my memory serves me rightly, I have gone into this question already at some length before the Commissioners. If I may, however, take the question No. G in the largest sense which the words conveying it will bear, and consider it as asking whether it is expedient that an educational body should compel its students to give evidence of some study of natural science, I should answer as follows : — Natural science is a matter of such consequence that every human being ought to have been fully and fairly and thoroughly tried as to his possession of capacity for understanding at least some one department of it. If a man can be made to understand even some one single department of natural knowledo-e, say such a one as heat, he gains thereby, besides and beyond any trivial accession of utilisable knowlege, an acquaintance with certain methods of reasoning which admit of application in totally alien subjects, and the want of acquaintance with Avhich is palpably and painfully obvious in per- sons who have not gone through such discipline. But, further, it is for the public interest that every citizen should have been examined as to whether he does or does not possess a faculty for these studies upon which so much of the material comfort and indirectly of other improvements of our species de[)ends. And many a man misses his proper career in life, to his own great loss as well as to that of the State, from not having had the op})ortunities I allude to. Taking these facts into consideration, I have often thought that all ]iersons should in the course of their education be couqielled to give evidence of having devoted a period of at least six months fairly told to the study of natural science ; and I think this now. If' however, a student has satisfied himself and some other responsible authority that after ex- pending this amount of time he has neither taste nor capacity for the .subject, I think it is u.seless to force it upon him furthei'. After a fair trial given and taken, bifurcation should be allowed. Men’s powers and men’s tastes are as a matter of fact very diverse, both quantitatively and (][ualitatively, and many-sidedness is less common than one-sidedness. It is to be deplored, but it is nevertheless a fact, that there are men of science to whom mental and indeed other philosophy is but an unintel- ligible jargon, and history but an old almanac never trustworthy in itself, and without any lessons for us ; and I have heard of mathematicians to whom poetry v^as altogether meaningless, except so far as it was metrical, whilst on the other hand there are metaphysicians who think wave currents very like electrical ; historians who are not physiographers, and .scholars who cannot comprehend why anybody should object to calling whales fish or bats birds. “ Ita est,” says Lipsius in a still sadder though a more easily remediable matter, “ c[ueri libet de naturtu perversitate.” I have, &c. George Rolleston, M.D., F.R.S., Linacre Professor of Anatomy and Physiology. FROM THE REVEREND H. SALWEY and THE REVEREND E. F. SAMPSON, CENSORS OF CHRIST CHURCH. In answer to Questions 1 and 2, we think that the best way to provide for religious teaching and the maintenance of religious services in colleges is to require that in every college a certain proportion of fellows (or students) shall be in full orders, and shall not merely give lectures in divinity but shall also take part in the general teaching of the college. We are referring here to tliat more elementary religious teaching which for the great majority of the imdergraduates Avould form part of the general education given in the university. 125 For the higher instruction, in theology it would be necessary to have, at least in the larger colleges, one of the clerical fellows specially set apart for such work. But we think there are many and great objections to reducing the number of clerical fellows to the bare minimum required for giving religious instruction in the colleges on the suppo.sition that their whole time is given to this work ; and we entertain a still stronger objection to the plan of ])roviding for religious instruction and services solely by the appointment of chaplains or other persons not being members of the governing body of the colleges, although it may be desirable in some cases to appoint chaplains in addition to the clerical fellows. In the case of Christ Church, we think due provision could be made if it were required that one of the censors and three or four of the tutors should be in holy order’s ; but if this is thought to be insufficient we are quite ready to accept as a compromise the proposal that one third of the students in Class B. should be in holy orders, a proposal which was actually carried in the governing body (as explained by the Dean in his letter to the Commissioners), and who also command the support of almost all those who are at the present time actually engaged in the work of education in the house. Except as hei-ein-before suggested, we think that there should be a (qualification of holy orders reiquired as a condition of holding a fellowship or studentship. Questions 3 and 4 are virtually answered by the provisions of the Christ Church draft statutes. We desire, however, under this head, to call the attention of the Commissioners to one danger against which Ave have attempted to provide, that of pluralism. We think that no college tutor taking full work, or allowed leisure for the special purpose of litei’avy work, should be ])ermitted to hold a university professorship, or any other qiermanent paid appointment, although a college lecturer might under proper restrictions he allowed to hold a readership in the university. As, however, in some cases colleges may not be able to provide full work for those whom they may appoint as lecturers, or eA^en, perhap>s, as tutors, it will be necessary to consider carefully under what conditions such persons shall be allowed to hold office in more than one college. There is already a temptation in Oxford for men to hold more than one educational appointment and to undertake more Avork than they can adequately perform. If the tutorships and professor- ships are properly endoAved it will not be necessary to accumulate offices in order to obtain a sufficient income. It is the more necessar}^ to guard against the danger as the inducements to pluralism Avill be greater when the restrictions on celibacy have been removed ;,and althougli Ave desire their removal for other reasons Avhich seem to us sufficient, Ave do not shut our eyes to its incidental drawbacks. We think, as we have just indicated, that there should be no condition of celibacy attached to the holding of a fellowshijA or studentship, qjrovided that a sufficient number of the fellows are required tc< reside in college for the purposes of discipline. Whatever may be done in this matter we hojee that under no circumstances Avill the Commissioners consent to restrict the permission to a limited number of felloAvs, as such a system is found very difficult to Avork in practice and gives rise almost of necessity to great qAersonal difficulties. For some of those Avlio have the right to marry may not Avish to exercise their right at the time, nor yet to waive it in fa Amur of a felloAv junior to themselves, and thereby, it may be, excluded from marriage for an indefinite time ; while on the other hand a junior felloAv may be desirous and able to marry and only be q^revented by a rule Avhich will aq3p>ear to be arbitrary and unjust. Question 5. — We desire that all scholarships should be of a uniform A’alue, and that the money value should be low. The limit of 501. suggested in our scheme appeal’s to be sufficient. If this is adojDted we think the colleges ought to have a certain sum of nqoney at their disposal Avluch they could give away on exhibitions or in the form of alloAvances for dinner, room-rent, or tuition to deserving members of their colleges who might be othei’Avise unable to maintain themselves in Oxford. We believe this to be a matter of considerable importance, for Ave certainly hav’e among our undergraduates some Avho could not live at Christ Church if their studentships were of smaller value than they are at present ; and the absence of such men Avould be a serious loss to us, since in a body of wealthy undergraduates it is a great advantage to have some Avho are compelled to live as simply as possible, and who in many cases set an example of vigour and industry to the other members of the college. We suppose that the limit for the scholarships in Oxford will not be settled upon Avithout regard to the arrangement made for Cambridge, for if a much higher limit were fixed for Cambridge we should be placed at a serious disadvantage. Question G. — Although the main qmi’t of the scientific teaching, at least in the highest experi- mental branches, must from the nature of the case remain in the hands of the university, we think each student should have access to some college teaching for the more elementary practical work and lor all the higher theoretical work. Christ Church has hitherto maintained a complete stall’ in this branch ol study, and Ave hoq)e that nothing may be done by the Commission to deqirive us of that which we believe to be the real secret of our success in the scientific schools. Herbert Salwey, Senior Student, Tutor, and Censor of Moral Philosophy. Edavard F. Samson, Senior Student, Tutor, Christ Church, and Censor of Natural PhilosopliA’. June 28, 1878. Q 3 12 (> FROM G. R. SCOTT, M.A., FELLOW OF MERTON COLLEGE. My Lords and Gentlemen, I WISH to embrace the opportunity you give to individual members of governing bodies of colleges of expressing to you their opinions on certain questions which you specify. (1.) and (2.), I think, go together. (a.) I believe it most undesirable that any fellowships should be given under the condition that the candidates should pi-omise to take orders if elected, or that the successful one should resign in a limited time if he does not take orders. I believe that many of the most able men are, at the time they would be standing for fellowships, in doubt whether to take orders or not, and that to have the question complicated by such a motive is most undesirable ; indeed, I know that some, and I believe that many, of the more conscientious, even while intending to take orders, refuse to try for such fellowships, lest such a motive should actually have weight in their final decision. Clerical fellowships, if there are to be any such, should be open only to candidates actually in orders. (^) As it is desirable to get the ablest men as material from which to chose tutors, it is obvious that all restrictions limiting the field of choice are so far bad, and that the onihs probandi lies with the advocates of clerical fellowships. (y) On the other hand it does seem very desirable that in a college of the average size there should be one clergyman, or better two, living in the place, taking an interest in the under- graduates, and forming a centre of the religious life of the college. Many parents expect that there should be such an influence, some cannot but feel that they have a right to expect it. Perhaps tlie very great success of Keble College may be due to the fact that they do not feel quite sure they can get it everywhere. Now, every college has one or two chaplains. Might not the chaplaincies be used for the purpose of ensuring the presence of clergymen without having many clerical fellowships. I am, at present, not speaking of those two or three colleges which from the nature of their services must choose their chaplains chiefly for their voices. But for the others, is it not a pity that the chaplain .should be often not a fellow at all, but somebody utterly unconnected with the college, who knows nothing of his congregation and is unknown to them ? The plan I would suggest is this : — Let each college have two chaplains. On any vacancy in the office of chaplain, let the post be offered to all the tutors and bursars in order of seniority. Let the income of any tutor or bursar who takes the office be increased by 501. If none mil take it, let it be offered to the prize fellows in senioiity, and let a prize fellow who takes it receive no extra emoluments, but let the time he serves as chaplain not count against him for determining his fellowships ; so that if he retains the office permanently his fellowship will be permanent. If no fellow at all will take it, let a chaplain fellowship be offered for competition. Let no one be admitted as a candidate who is not actually in holy orders, and let the object of the examination be to test as far as possible the likelihood of his making an efficient tutor, so that if possible the offices of tutor and chaplain may be eventually combined. The chaplain fellowship to be of the value of a prize fellowship, and tenable as long as the holder remains chaplain. If a chaplain fellow should be made tutor he should receive .50^. more than another tutor. If provision be thus made for securing two clergymen constantly in residence and in intercourse with the undergraduates, I see no reason why any other clerical fellowships should exist, or why heads .should be necessarily clergymen. (3.) I believe seven years is about the right term for prize fellowships. Less than this would hardly give the fellows sufficient feeling of interest in the college to make them good governors, and a longer term would, as I take it for granted the restriction of celibacy will be abolished, make the succession almost slower than at present. There should, 1 am inclined to believe, be no distinction made between residents and non- residents, but any time spent by an assistant lecturer in the service of the college should not count as part of the seven years. The pay given to a lecturer would in such a case be very small, as his fellowship would serve as some part of his pay. 200^. a year would, I think, generally be sufficient income for a prize fellow. They should, I think, all be members of the governing body. Outside opinions are very valuable at a college meeting, and I believe it is very rare for non-residents not to defer to the officials opinions on subjects on which they, the non-residents, are from inexperience of the facts incapable of forming sufficiently sound judgments. But if it be thought desirable that only a part of the prize fellows should be members of the college meeting, I am strongly of opinion that this part should be not a certain number of the seniors, but a part delegated by the whole body. Thus the best men for the purpose would be selected, and ' every prize fellow would feel that he had at least a representative voice in the government. (4.) I believe it would greatly simplify matters if tutors and bursars wer6 not called fellows at all, but were members of the governing body qua tutors and bursars. At present it is impossible for a tutor to say exactly how much of his income is pay for work done and how much he is draw- 127 ing as a prize fellow. It is obvious that the fact that most tutors are also fellows diminishes considerably the market price of a tutor as such, and this tells very hardly on those men who happen to be tutors without being fellows. A tutor should therefore, I think, be paid simply by his tutorship. As to the value of a tutorship, I think what is wanted is to make careers for men, to give them less at first and more afterwards than they get at present ; in order we may have fewer men who take the post for three or four years and then go off to something else, and more who make it their life’s work and become really experienced tutors and lecturers. I would suggest they should begin with 350Z. or 400Z., and that their income should gradually rise to a possible maximum of 900Z. They should, I think, at intervals have to be retained in their office by a two-third majority of the college, (not by any individual or small committee). I think perhaps the period might be — At the end of 3 years’ service, j, 8 » „ 20 After 15 years’ service they should be entitled to a small pension. After 25 years’ service to a larger pension. I take it for granted tutors will be allowed to marry, and that colleges will endeavour as soon as possible, by buildings orVeconstruction, to ensure the existence of one or two married tutors’ houses in college. If professors are members of the governing body of a college, they again, I think, should not be called fellows, and the emoluments of a fellowship should not be tenable together with those of the professorship, viz., the emoluments of the professorship should be fixed once for all, and it should not be left to accident whether this or that man has a fellowship as well. (5.) Although all competition by different colleges to get the cleverest men by bribery in the shape of scholarships is of course most undesirable, I doubt whether it would be good to aim at an absolutely dead level in the value of scholarships. A poor college may be obliged, in order to get a sufficient number of scholars, to give each a small income. It does not follow that every other college should be bound down to follow its example. Take for instance Balliol : owing to its great reputation it can attract first-rate men to take exhibitions on the foundations worth 60^. a year, and owing to its limited funds it would have to diminish the number of its scholars most unduly if compelled to raise them all to 100^. a year. On the other hand, to very poor men it is extremely useful that scholarships of lOOZ. a year should exist in Oxford. I think a maximum beyond which one could not increase would be useful, but I rather think this should, if possible, be a maximum of total income derived from scholarships or exhibitions, including tliose given by schools or city companies. Might not every candidate for a scholarship have to assert that if successful his total income from such sources would not exceed 150Z. And again, having got a scholarship at a college, it should be unallowable for him to accept other exhibi- tions from outside making the total income more tlian 150^. Many schools give valuable exhibitions, and I know some undergraduates receive more than 200^. a year from such sources, and some are actually laying by while up here. This seems certainly a misappropriation of funds. With regard to the conditions of tenure, I believe there is one innovation, which, if adopted uniformly, would be very beneficial. There is great danger now that a boy, perhaps lazy by nature, who has worked conscientiously with all his might to obtain a scholarship, and is very tired of work, may think that having gained the scholarship he has gained everything, and, under the influence of the many new temptations in the shape of amusement which beset him on first coming up here, may turn utterly idle. If he were at first given a scholarship for one year only, with an understanding that if he works fairly well and does not greatly fall off in ability he is pretty sure at the end of the year to be elected to another scholarship for the rest of his time (a S3^stem which I believe the minor and foundation scholarships at Trinity and St. John’s College, Cambridge, do carry out there), the man would be more likely to begin his career here well ; and, having begun it well, I think there would not be the same danger of his becoming lazy later on. This is a matter which it would be very difficult for one or two colleges to carry out by themselves. The effect would be a diminution in the number of candidates for their scholarships. If done at all, it should be done by a general rule, that scholarships should be given to outsiders for one year onl}^, members of the college being eligible for scholarships of longer tenure later on in their course. (6.) I think it would hardly be practicable to make all undergraduates learn natural science. If it were, it would no doubt be very useful. But I believe the effect would be this. It would be difficult to reduce the standard of classics and mathematics in responsions without making the work useless. Therefore the natural science work would be simply so much added to responsions. Many men now go down without being able to pass that examination. After the proposed change more would do so. Therefore colleges, not liking to have their men plucked, would raise their matricu- lation standard, and fewer men would be able to come up here. Already this standard is much higher than at Cambridge, where indeed I believe very few of the colleges have an}' examination for matriculation at all. If we raise it more, we lose a larger number of people, country squires, &c., who come up here primarily for social advantages, who no doubt are not among the most satis- factory men, or the easiest to deal with, from a tutor’s point of view, but who yet get more good from spending their three or four years up here and knocking about among the men they meet here, than they would by spending the same years at home, in London, or on foreign travel, and whom it is the duty of a university which aspires to be a national one, to try and deal with and improve somehow, and not send away. Q 'i 128 In brief, we give the men already for responsions (juite as much work as the weaker of them can master. Therefore we cannot give the same men more work. Therefore, if we make them learn natural science, we must forgive them classics or niatliematics, either of which are, I think, on the whole, more necessary than natural science. I have, &c. G. R. Scott, M.A., Fellow and Tutor of Merton College. The University of Oxford Commissioners, 5, Craig’s Court, London. FROM THE REA^EREND H. F. TOZER, EXETER COLLEGE. June 7, 1878. I BEG to point out, first, the evils arising from the present S 3 ^stem of scholarships, according to which each college fixes the value of its own scholanships, and there are no povertv qualifications. 1. It has }>roduced unseemly competition among colleges, which is general!}" deplored and felt to be degrading, but which no one college can check, because its credit in the countrv depends on the lionours it obtains in the schools, and these depend on its scholars, and consequently it is found to obtain the best scholars it can. The result of this is, that whereas 80 years ago young men were content with scholar-ships of 30/. a year, now they expect 80/. This increase of value grew up gradually, owing to the competition of the colleges. 2. It has a demoralising effect on the candidates, for bo}"s and young men learn not to work unless they can gain something by it ; in other words, “ can it make it pa}'.” 3. It has seriously increased the rate of living among the higher class of students. Formerly it used to be thought that the holder of a scholarship should be to some extent a frugal person ; but now that the scholarships are lar-ge in value, and are universally held witliout reference to the means of the holder, a large number of scholars live expensively, or not inexpensively, and consequently it is extremely difficult for poorer men, who live among them, to live frugally. This evil is widely felt. 4. The large value of the scholarships, not being accompanied by great con-esponding advantage, s, is of course a great waste of the funds of the colleges. .5. The absence of any poverty qualification is a great injury to young men in need of assistance at the university, who especially Avant encouiagement at the present time. The whole educational system of the ]n-esent day, from school upwards, is disadvantageous to these. The entrance scholar- .ships at the public schools are gained to a large extent by boys who have been trained with a view to them by special private tutoi-s ; and again, the college scholarships are gained by those who have been educated at the best schools. Thus, as scholarships are open to the sons of the rich just as much as to those of the poor, it naturally follows that on the whole they are obtained by the wealthy. To remedy these evils, I would suggest that scholanships in all colleges should be of the value of 20/. a year for five years, and that the holders of these alone should wear a scholar’s gown. This sum would be sufficient as a prize. At the same time, there should be exhibitions in all colleges, varying in value from 50/. to 100/. a year, for persons in need of assistance at the university. Those of such persons who had already obtained scholarships would have the first claim, and all should be required to give evidence of proficiency by passing some examination, which might, pei'haps, be left to the colleges to regulate. But the claims of the candidates for exhibitions on the ground of poverty should be examined, and their eligibility determined, not by the colleges who give the exhibitions, but by a board appointed by the University for that purpose, and no person should be allowed to hold one who had not been certified to be eligible by that board. The amount of the exhibition might in part be regulated by the need of the candidate. The exhibitioners should become members of the colleges which give the exhibitions. Eighteen years of age should be the limit of standing for scholarships. This would greatly help economy, and would remedy the groAving evil of the length of the entire educational course of school and college, Avhich excludes numbers of persons from the university. At present the masters of schools naturally keep their best boys to an advanced age, because those Avho are most mature have the best chance of scholarships. If the scholars were elected at 18, the rest of the under- graduates would follow the example of coming into residence earlier than at present. I would further suggest that it is desirable that the college should have absolute poAver to suspend or eject a scholar or exhibitioner from his scholarship or exhibition, without appeal. Any other arrangement seems to lead the holder to think that he may be idle or ill-behaved, notAvithstanding his holding these, because he considers them as a prize once for all obtained. It might even be desirable to make the tenure of the scholarship or exhibition, or part of it, dependent from year to year on the proficiency and industry of the holder. Henry F. Tozer, Tutor of Exeter Colle,ge. O 129 FROM THE REVEREND A. WATSON, FELLOW OF BRASENOSE COLLEGE. June 20, 1878. I BEG to offer a few remarks in answer to a letter (No. 10) received from you. On the <^reater number of the six questions contained ill that letter 1 agree with the substance of the corporate answer returned by this college to an extent which renders it needless for me to sav anything as an individual. There are, however, two points connected with the tenure^ of fellowsidps on which I am glad to have an opportunity of saying a few words ; — I.— I am not sure that it IS desirable that any definite line should be drawn between “ prize ” and other fellowships. All fellowships might as a rule be ‘‘prize” fellowships, and held in the first instance onlv for a certain term of years ; but (1) years spent in the service of the college might not be reckoned as part of the limited term ; (2) a certain number of years spent in the service of the college might entitle the holder, with the consent of the college, to retain his fellowship for life ; (3) the stipend of a fellow holding office in a college might 'ipso facto be raised during the term for which he shall hold such office ; (4) the college might have power to elect in certain cases without examination persons who in the opinion of the governing body should be well qualified to take part in the in.struction or government of tlie members of the college, or in the management of its pro])erty. II — With regard to the marriage of fellows I wish to call the attention of the Commissioners to some considerations which shoidd, I think, be kept in view. 1. If colleges are to remain not only places of residence but independent places of education, it will be necessary to offer to those who act as teachei-s in them some prospect of a permanent provision. 2. But it will in my opinion be necessary that a certain proportion, say four at least, of the official fellows should reside in college ; and if the situation and means of a college do not admit of the erection of tutors’ houses as })art of the college buildings, the necessity of residence in college would seem to exclude those obliged so to reside from the possibility of marrying while the obligation to reside remains in force. 3. If any restrictions be retained with regard to marriage I think that perhaps it would be well to provide that no official fellow should be allowed to retain his fellowship after marriage till he has been for a certain number of years in the service of the college, and perhaps that a certain interval must elapse after the marriage of one fellow before another is entitled to marry without forfeiting his fellowship, so that the whole benefit of the relaxation of existing restrictions may not be monopolised by those who belong to one academic generation. 4. In fact, considering that in my opinion all holders of “prize” fellowships (if the division of fellowships into two classes is enforced) should l)e allowed to marry without forfeiting their fellow- ships, and that careers for men who desire to remain in Oxford as students or teachers will be multiplied by the proposed creation of several new university readerships, I think that in the case of official fellows liberty to marry without forfeiting a fellowship may without hardship be con- sidered as an exceptional privilege, and not as a general right. I am, &c. Albert Watson. FROM SIR W. R. ANSON, BART., AND R. G. C. MOWBRAY, FELLOWS OF ALL SOULS’ COLLEGE. Sir, June 15, 1878. In answer to the invitation of the University Commissioners we should be glad to express an opinion upon the subject of Question 3. We consider the expression “ prize fellowship ” to be unfortunate in itself, and the idea which it conveys to be one which, if carried out, will seriously injure the collegiate system. A fellowship should, in our opinion, be made to answer two objects ; it should serve the purpose of a substantial prize as little fettered as possible by restrictions, and it should also contribute permanently to the strength and continuity of the governing body of a college. It seems that this last aspect of a fellowship is apt to be overlooked, and for this reason : — The interest of reformers in the university is at present concentrated on one of two objects, the development of special duties which are to a certain extent new to the university, and the increase of the educational value of university teaching. The fellowship system does not, as at present constituted, meet either of these requirements. Tlie rewards which it offers are mainly given for proficiency in classics and general culture, and are often absolutely disconnected with educational duties. No doubt one of the great jn-oblems of university reform is the adaptation of college fellowships to these two requirements. They should operate as an inducement to study by offering either a start in life, or special opportunities for study to those who have distinguished themselves in their university career. They should operate as an inducement to educational work by offering permanent rewards to those who will devote themselves to teaching. But a fellowship means something more than this, and a college, too, is something other than a university institution or a finishing school. A fellowship means a place on the governing body of a corporation, with a ])Osition and respon- sibilities which of themselves are, to many men, no inconsiderable portion of the reward which it Q C223. E 130 bestows. A college is jxn organism often possessing an intense life of its own, too valuable in many res])ects to be sacrificed to the needs of special studies, or of university teaching. It is true that this organism is rendered moi'e vigorous and more effective by the presence witliin it of different elements which corporate feeling makes to work together in harmony. But this diversity of element may be carried too fiir. If the fellows of each college fall into two groups, the one a group of prizemen for whose benefit a portion of the college revenues has been temporarily appro- priated for extra collegiate juirposes, the other a group of teachers who have thrown in their lot with the educational life of the university, then each college will undergo a process of disintegra- tion fatal to its corporate character and efficiency. It is hardly possible that two bodies whose interests in the college differ so widely both in degree and in kind should work well together. We venture to suggest to the Commissioners a scheme, the object of which is to hannouise the different elements required in the governing bodj^ of a college by assimilating their interests, to secure to the different studies of the university their due proportion of rewards, and to make those rewards of a more permanent character without diverting too large a portion of college revenues from the direct object of collegiate teaching. We would propose that in every college there should be a certain number of fellowships of sub- stantial value, awarded for proficiency in the various studies in the university, not carrying with them any obligation to residence or any educational duties. These fellowships should give to their holders the same position on the governing body as that enjoyed by resident fellows. The full value of such fellowships should be limited to a certain number of yeans, during which there should be no restriction to celibacy. At the end of that time the value of the fellowships should be materially diminished, should become in fact little more than a retaining fee, which, while it would make no very serious charge on the college revenues, would preserve to the college the experience of those who cared to remain upon the governing body, and to the holder of the fellow- ship the position and responsibilities of a fellow of a college. Celibacy would be a necessary re(piirement for the continued tenure of a fellowship thus reduced in its emoluments, partly because it would secure a succession of vacancies, partly because a non-resident married fellow would not be veiy likely to devote much attention to the affairs of a college. It might, of course, be con- venient that the tenure of certain offices, varying in their cliaracter according to the design of the college, should free the holder from the restriction of celibacy. But the tenure aud emoluments of college offices are something apart from the fellowship, and it is to the importance of permanent fellowships to the continuity of college history, and to the harmony and vitality of the college organism, that we desire most earnestly to call the attention of the Commissioners. We remain, &c. William Reynell Anson. Robert G. C. Mowbray. FROM G. E. BAKER, Esq., FELLOW OF MAGDALEN COLLEGE. My Lord, June 21, 187S. I BEG to lay before your lordship and the other University of Oxford Commissioners the following remarks upon certain questions as to which you have expressed your willingness to receive and consider the opinions of members of the governing bodies of colleges. 1 and 2. — The first two questions appear to me to be so closely connected that they may be most conveniently dealt with together. I am of opinion that the qualification of holy orders should not continue to be necessary for fellow.ships not specially connected with the duty of giving religious instruction and conducting religious services. The present sy.stem, which attaches an obligation to take holy orders to a certain number of fellowships without requiring the performance of any clerical duties or even residence on the part of the holders of such fellowships, is (as regards Magdalen College at least) a creation oi' the ordinance framed under the powers of the University Act of 1854. The original statutes of Magdalen College, which require fellows of that college to be in holy orders, require them also to reside and to perform clerical duties. The Royal Commission of 1852 found that the latter recjuirements had been generally neglected, and, consideiing it absurd to enforce them under the altered conditions of religion and society, it recommended the entire abolition of the clerical restriction. The commission of 1854 removed that restriction from a certain proportion of fellowships and released the holders of those still subject to it from the statutory obligation to reside and perform clerical duties. The result is a state of things Avhich only accidentally has escaped absolute failure, and which, while it is })roductive of inconvenience and injury to the college, and is probably'immoral in its effects upon those who are directly affected by it, is attended by no corre- sponding advantages. It is possible either that clerical fellows may be out of residence, or, in the event of their residing, that they may be unwilling or unfitted to perform clerical duties ; in either case a considerable difficulty might be found in providing for the religious instruction and religious worship of the college. As a matter of fact a larger proportion of clerical than of lay fellows have hitherto resided, but this is because, apart from private means, the profession of a college tutor could only be adopted by those who could find a retiring pension in a college living. With the establishment of a system of pensions to tutors this condition of things would probably be consider- ably modified. But it is obvious that the residence of clerical fellows ajiart from their willingness or fitness to })erform clerical functions is useless. I do not wisli to lay stress upon the argument of 131 tlic moral effect of the clerical restriction, though I have a strong opinion as to its ohjectionahle character. The inconvenience and injury to the college is more easily measured. It is obvious that, thoimh accidentally the successful candidate at an election to a clerical fellowship may be equal or superior to one at that to an open fellowship, the field of choice is necessarily narrowed byithc im- position of that as of any other restriction. It is scarcely to be expected that a law or natural science tutor should have taken or intend to take holy ortlers, Init the college wishing to select a fellow to act as tutor in one of those subjects might find only a clerical fellowship at its disposal. The presence of a clerical element in the governing body of a college is probably beneficial, but it does not appear to me to be necessary or desirable that a clerical preponderance should be secured by artificial means. It is not proposed to impose a lay in place of a clerical restriction, and if all fellowships were open the holders of them would still be at liberty to take holy orders, and to induce them to do so it seems to me that there would always be sufficient motives without resorting to the final one that they must otherwise vacate their fellowships. On the whole, then, the present sj^stem cannot appeal for protection to the main intention of the founder which it in no degi-ee carries out, it does not effectually provide for the religious instruction and religious worship of the colleo-e, it is not necessary for the attainment of the end at which it directly aims, and if not other- wise objectionable, it is at any rate productive of inconvenience and injury to the college. On these grounds I think that it should be abandoned. What then is to be substituted for it ? I .submit that holy orders should cease to be a condition of election to or tenure of fellow.ships, except so far, if at all, as may be necessary in order that proper and effectual provision should be made for religious instruction and religious worship in colleo-es. For this purpose it will be necessary not only that a certain number of persons should be under an obligation to take holy orders, but also that the persons under that obligation should be required to reside and perform clerical duties. Two methods of securing the proi>osed end suggest themselves : — 1. The institution of a separate class of chaplains or chaplain-fellows who .should perform exclusively clerical functions. 2. The maintenance of the clerical restriction as regards such a number of fellowships as shoidd bo sufficient for the purpose proposed. It would appear at first sight that in the chaplains who form part of the foundation of Magdalen College such a separate class as suggested is ready to hand. But a chaplain is chosen almost entirely for his musical attainments, and his sole duty is to perform certain chapel services which are not included in the discipline of the college, whereas religious worship is only one of the objects for which provision has to be made. Besides this, it appears to me that, a])art from the waste of power involved in such a system, it is undesirable that the religious instruction and religious worship of a college should bo committed to a separate class, whether of chaplains or chaplain-fellows who shoidd perform none but clerical duties. >Such persons would be liable to occupy a lower po.sition in the eyes, if not of the other fellows, at least of the undergraduates, than persons holding oi)cn fellow- siiips and acting as tutors of the colleges, and would readily be regarded as officials charged with the performance of certain mechanical and police duties of importance only as forming part of the dis- cipline of the college. I think, therefore, that the latter method would be preferable, viz., that there should be a certain number of fellows in holy orders, and that the fellow.ship filled up next after the number of such fellows had been reduced below that limit should be held subject to the obligation to take holy orders within a certain time, and to reside, and to perform such clerical duties as the governing body of the college should appoint. 1 think that it might also be desirable to make cer- tain ofiices, such as that of dean, which are particularly charged with the discipline of the college, tenable only by fellows in holy orders. What number of fellows in holy orders would be sufficient is a matter of further consideration. I think that the number might reasonably differ within cer- tain limits in different colleges, according to the .size of the foundation or the number of under- graduates, but that it should in no case exceed four. I think that the head.ships of colleges should be exempted from the clerical restriction where-- ever they are subject to it. It does not appear to me that the headship of a college is necessarily connected with a,ny clerical duties, and the restriction might very possibly prevent the appointment of the person best qualified for the position. 3. The question of the tenure of prize fellowships may be conveniently dealt with under the heads of (1.) Holy orders ; (2.) Marriage ; (3.) Property ; and (4.) Time. (1.) In addition to the general grounds upon which, as I have stated, it is in my opinion desirable that the clerical restriction should be reduced within narrower limits, there are peculiar reasons which make it particularly inapplicable to prize fellowships. I take it that the object of prize fellowships is to start men of promise in professions which are not immediately remunerative. The professions of law and medicine seem to me to answer to that description, the clerical profession does not. A man may be absolutely debarred from entering on the former by an absence of iiieans ; from the latter he at once receives an income, small indeed, yet sufficient to maintain him, and per- haps as large as he derives from it at any subsequent period of his life. Moreover most active professions must be pursued away from Oxford, and if, as I think, the obligation to take holy orders should not be imposed except so far as the needs of the college may require, holders of prize fellow.ships as being non-resident should be necessarily exempted from it. (2.) It seems to me a matter of comparative indifference whether prize fellowships .shoidd be vacated upon marriage or' not. The grounds on which the enforcement of celibacy upon fellows R 2 132 has been supported do not appear to apply to fellows who will be for the most part non-resident, who will not he engaged in the tutorial and disciplinary work of the college, and who will neces- sarily vacate their fellowships at the end of a certain tei'iii. The argument Avhich urges the encouragemeiat to improvident marriages does not seem to me to have much weisht. It may he balanced by that which urges the encouragement to immorality involved in enforced celibacy. On the whole, I think that if the term of tenure were moderately short, it would be unnecessary to enforce celibac}^ upon the holders of jn’ize fellowships. (3.) 1 think that prize fellowships should be vacated upon the holder coming into possession of pi'operty of a certain amount. The only justification of the institution a])pears to me to lie in the fact that men who have distinguished themselves in their university career are thei’eliy enabled to bridge over the gap betw'een it and a practical life. But if they can do this without assistance the money is wasted. Colleges cannot afford to grant decorations worth 2,000/. each. The amount which should vacate a prize fellowship should, I think, be put at a sum rather in excess of the value of such a fellowship ; e.g., if the value of the latter were 250/. per annum it might be vacated uj)on the holder coming into possession of 300/. per annum. This, of course, implies that no one with an income of that amount should be eligible for such a fellowship. (4.) The determination of the time for which a pj-ize fellowship should be held seems to me to involve several considerations. The term should be long enough to enable a man to ha.ve a fair chance of having started in his profession ; it should not be so long as to continue to a successful man an income which he no longer requires ; it should be short enough to keep before him the nece.ssity of obtaining an income from his profession ; it should not be so short as to make the holder feel that his connexion with the college is too epheinei’al to impose upon him the duty of taking an interest in its affairs. I think that either seven or ten years would be the best limit to impose, and of these the latter appears to me most nearly to satisfy the conditions I have mentioned. With regard to the general subject of prize fellowships, I am of ojnnion that 250/. is a fairer maximum than 200/. at which to put their value. A man starting at the bar with no other means than his fellowship at his disposal could scarcely support himself upon the latter sum, and the former would not be excessive. It also appears to me that the tenure of prize fellowships should be the normal one, to which exceptions should be made in the case of what may be called pro- fessorial and tutorial fellowships. The tenure of a fellowship as such shoidd be limited by time and by property, it should be fi-eed from restrictions of holy orders and celibacy, but the former limitations might be removed, and the latter might be impused, to such an extent as the interests of the University and College might require in the case of professors and tutors holding fellowshijis. In this way the title “ prize fellowship," which I confe.ss seems to me to be objectionable, would be avoided, and the difference of language would, I think, imply an important difference of meaning. A man obtaining a fellowship not only becomes entitled to the receipt of a certain income, but he is also admitted to the governing body of an important society, having important educational and administrative functions to discharge. He is not merely a stipendiary, but a trustee, ami that none the less because one fellowship may (lifter from another in tenure and privileges, according to the closer or remoter connexion of their holders with their college or their university. It may be a question whether the holders of (so-called) prize fellowships should form part of the governing liody of their college, and if their position led them to regard their college merely as a paymaster, I think that they should not ; but it appears to me that this is not necessary, and that the colleges would lose considerably by their exclusion. 5. I think that it would be very desirable to arrive at some uniformity in the value and con- ditions of tenure of scholarships on the foundation of the ditterent colleges. The i)resent system, under which one college bids against another, has resulted in the value of scholarships having been largely, and I think disproportionately, increased in the course of the last few years. I do not, however, think that this is the only objection to which the present system is oj)en. Even in col- leges where the electors to scholarships have power to exclude any candidate from examination uprofession : if an artificial minimum be fixed, it will rarely, if ever, be exceeded. Having regard to the history of past changes, and the present state of opiirion in Oxford, I cannot imagine that any solution of this Qua’stio vexata can be permanent which sup]Alements the natural attractions of the clerical Amcation, and the reasonable provision for instruction and Avorship, by the addition or maintenance'of clerical fellowships, for the exact number of which no necessary ground or reason can be assigned. At Merton College the Head is a layman ; I am not aAvare that any inconvenience has been experienced in consequence ; and I know of no reason for restricting Headships of colleges, election to which is made by the respective governing body, to persons iu holy orders. Neither can I believe 135 that holy orders would ever act as a disqualilication for a candidate known as a man of moderation, and in other respects well qualified to jjreside over a learned educational society, 3. The danger of the juizc fellowship is that it may induce idleness, and lead to a man’s doing work neither in Oxford nor elsewhere. It should therefore be terminable. By this provision a sufficiently rapid succes.sion may be secured to distribute the benefits of the prize fellowship .system over an area even larger than at present covered by it. Succession being uniformly secured in all cases, there can be no ground for maintaining the celibate restriction. As it is not desirable (in my opinion) to divorce the prize fellowship entirely from the tutorial or instructional fellowship, I suggest that any period of time which the prize fellow spends in Oxford in work for the college .should not be reckoned as part of his tenure. In my oj)inion the prize fellowship should be filled by open competitive examination, .should be tenable for seven years, and be of 200?. per annum value, with rooms during residence. The prize fellow should, in my opinion, be a member of the governing body in his college, not in his own interest only, but also as a representative, in a certain degree, of general external opinion. 4. In my opinion no fellowship .should be (as mo.st now are) of the nature of a permanent free- hold for life. Fellow, ships, other than prize fellowships, .should be, generally speaking, conditional on residence in Oxford and work for the college as tutor or lecturer (unless attached to a university profe.ssor.ship or readership). I cannot believe it desirable in many cases to recognise the permanent divorce of research from teaching. Provided that arrangements are made to ensure the residence of a sufficient number of members of the governing body within the college walls, the interests of education, disci})line, and morality, would, I believe, be unimpaired by the total abolition of the celibate restriction. To preclude repeated solicitation and undue personal considerations it would be well (I believe) that educational fellow.ships should be held for a .single long term of 25 to 30 years. To preclude permanent neglect or inefficiency (against which at present there is little pro- vision) it would be well that there should somewhere reside powers of dismissal subject to appeal. As proficiency in an examination is no sure evidence of efficiency a.s’ a teacher, it would be well that ;»l)])ointments to fellow.ships of this class should not depend wholly on competitive examination. The stipend of teachers should depend upon the amount of service rendered, a certain fixed minimum being guaranteed, as in the case of professors. If the present average scale of remuneration, which is not considered excessive as measured by that of other professions, were sensibly lowered, there would probably be increased difficulty in persuading teachers in Oxford to concentrate their best energies on their work. I should not propose that the present scale be increased, but while main- taining it I would give the college real claim and control over the work and time of its educational staff'. 5. In regard to scholarships there is considerable room for variation of reasonable opinion, and in my judgment the Commission would not act for the best by exposing a rigid unifonnity ; but I should most earnestly deprecate any measure like a return to the system of close scholarships and exhibitions. I should welcome any encouragement given to the 2 )ursuit of natural science by the allotment of a portion of the scholarship funds in any college to those pursuing that study. It might be well to fix a minimum, say 80?., which no scholarship should exceed. Some scholarships 01 - exhibitions at least (in every college) might be excepted from the action of a low limit of age ; otherwise colleges may be deprived of the power of assisting a deserving class of men, viz., those who from one cause or another are late in starting on then.' academical career. I share in the feeling that regard to poverty should be had in filling up certain exhibitions ; but scholarships I should wish to see still awarded simply by examination. 6. I believe it to be neither practicable nor desirable to make provision in every college for the elementary instruction of all undergraduates in natural science, if thereby be meant the erection of separate laboi'atories and museums, the more so because the University does not (at present) require such knowledge from all candidates for a degree ; but it would be both practicable and desirable (in my opinion) to encourage the study of natural science, and to provide for the tutorial wants of students of natural science in every college by allotting one or more fellowships to the support of persons qualified to give instruction in such subjects. Requesting yon to submit the above expre.ssion of my opinion on the sevei'al heads in question to the notice of the Commissioners in the usual way. I have, &c. Reginald W. Macan, M.A. (Senior Student and Tutor of Christ Church.) FROM E. MYERS, M.A., FELLOW OF WADHAM COLLEGE. 12, Hereford Gardens, London, W. My Lords and Gentlemen, July 1, 1878. I HAVE been informed by the warden of Wadham College, Oxford, of which college I am a fellow, that you are willing to receive and consider such opinions as individual members of the governing bodies of colleges may desire to lay before you on six points named in a circular issued by you in May. On all these questions I thoroughly concur with the answers which will be returned to you by the college in its corporate caj^acity, as resolved in a college meeting held on the 28th of last month. R 4 136 I venture, however, to add a few words at rather more length on the second of these questions, as that is one on which my opinion has been formed in a decided sense, and is the result of a good deal of observation and reflection, bestowed partly during three years of residence as a college lecturer at Oxford, and partly during the seven years since those, which have given me an oppor- tunity of observing the attairs of the university with a less intimate, but perhaps, therefore, more impartial acquaintance. T think that to make the qualification of holy orders necessary to the tenure of fellowships or Headships of colleges is injurious in a very considerable degree to the interests of the university as a place of learning and of intellectual education, as any limitation of its endowments to one particular profession must needs be. But I think the limitation injurious in a far higher degree to the interests of the university as a place of religious and moral education. To maintain clerical privileges in connexion with a point of such central interest in the university as the election to fellowships and headships is to place the Church of England, and even Christianity itself, in so invidious a position as fatally to paralyse the very influence which the limitation is intended to assist. In Oxford, perhaps even more than elsewhere, a religious intluence must be as free as possible from unspiritual associations if it is to retain vitality and free access to the best minds. And it is plain that college felloAvshii)s and headships stand on a totally different footing from .such endowments of the church as those of the parochial and cathedral clergy, the possession of which involves the discharge of functions for which laymen are unqualified. I feel bound, therefore, to record emphatically my opinion that the abolition of clerical privileges in the election to fellowships and head.ships is of the first importance to the welfare, in the highest sense, of the University as a place of religion, learning, and education ; and that of the many changes in many directions which have been suggested, there is none on which I would speak with nearly the same assurance of certainty. I am, &c. Ernest Myer.s, M.A., Fellow of Wadham College, Oxford. FROM H. RICHARDS, M.A., FELLOW AND TUTOR OF WADHAM COLLEGE. Sir, _ July 5, 1878. I BEG to enclose a short statement of opinions on some of the points on which the Universit}^ of Oxford Commissioners have expressed their readiness to consider what members of the governing bodies of colleges might wish to say. I have, &c. Herbert Richards. 1. I think the end contemplated will be be.st attained by instructing the colleges to provide a given amount of religious instruction, and a given number of religious services, and by then leaving them to provide it in whatever way they may find convenient. No uniform and predetermined .system \ can be .so good as the arrangements they will make for themselves from time to time, to suit circumstances. If adequate security already exists, or is now taken for the existence of religious teaching and service, the rest is a matter of detail that colleges may be left to regulate according to their own convenience. When a chaplain or a lecturer was wanted, if any fellow was fit and ready for the post, he would probably be appointed to it ; if no such fellow were forthcoming, there would be no ditticulty in finding someone else to do the work. By attaching a fellowship permanently to a chaplaincy or a divinity lecture.ship, nothing more would in reality be effected. A fellowship would be withdrawn from open competition, but no additional security for religious service or teaching would be created, as indeed none would be wanted. If a college were bound to provide these, there is no fear and scarcely any possibility of its not doing so, but, if it were disposed to do so and could evade the law, the accident of the chaplain or divinity lecturer being a fellow would certainly not be enough to prevent it. Nothing short of a permanent majority of clerical fellows would secure that, and even they would not necessarily insist on an ideal amount of religious instruction and chapel service. I think, also, that the position of a chaplain or divinity lecturer in his college would be distinctly damaged if he were made ex officio a fellow, or (what would come to the same thing) if a fellowship were insepaiably connected with the office. In Wadham we have never (I believe) had any clerical fellowships ; but religious instruction and chapel services have been provided just as regularly and efficiently as elsewhere. 2. I think the restriction of orders should be removed from all fellowships and all Headships of colleges without exception. The limitation serves no useful end, and works most unfairly and injuriously. It is as unjust to laymen of the Church of England as it is to those who do not belong to that church. In the case of Wadham, where there are no clerical fellowships, it is peculiarly hard that there should be any such restriction on the Headship. It may very easily happen that the man whom the college Avould wish to elect on grounds of fitness and past service is a layman, and both he and the college would have a right to complain if it is impossible to elect him. 5. As regards the value of scholarships I am inclined to think that the best plan would be to fix a maximum, beyond which no college might go. If some uniform sum were fixed, it must be 137 either more than many colleges are now willing and perhaps able to give, or less than is now some- times given. I cannot see any reason for compelling colleges to give more than they wish, and unless it can be shown that the amount now given anywhere is extravagant (which, considering the fall in the value of money, I hardly think), I do not see any reason either^ for compelling them to give less. But I think the spirit of competition might at any time incite a wealthy college to give scholarships of an excessive value, and that I should be glad to see put out of its power. P^arther, it would be undesii’able to make such rigid rules for older foundations, if more recent endowments could not be brought under them. As regards the duration of scholarships, I think a uniform term should be fixed, and that it should be the time which, by the arrangements of the university, a man could spend in reading for honour in one final school. It should date from the term in which he begins residence, if that were subsequent to his election. But colleges might, I think, with advantage have the power of con- tinuing the scholarships for some time longer (say another year), when they thought the privilege had been deserved and was likely to be well used. I am, &c. Herbert Richards, Fellow and Tutor of Wadham College, Oxford. FROM R. SHUTE, M.A., CHRIST CHURCH. Sir, July 5, 1878. I WOULD suggest with regard to paragraphs 1 and 2 of the paper of questions drawn up by the Commissioners : That whereas it is eminently desirable that due provision should be made for religious instruction and religious services in the several colleges, it is certainly inexpedient that this instruction and those services should bo committed to those who are not also capable of taking part in some other branch of education, and do not actually take such part. Such a specialisation would tend to diminish the influence of the religious instructors, and the estimation in which they were held. That if it be held that this religious instruction will most fitly be given by persons in holy orders, it may, for the reason stated above, be advisable that a somewhat lai’ger number of persons in each college should be in holy orders than would barely suffice for religious instruction and services. That there seems to be no advantage to the colleges as places of religion and education in retaining the qualification of holy orders for fellowships beyond this limit ; while there are the obvious disadvantages of narrowing the area from whence selections may be made ; and in certain cases of putting undue stress upon wavering intentions. With respect to paragraph 3 : That the duration of prize fellowships should not extend beyond such time as would be sufficient for an able and industrious man to start himself in a profession. But that no qualifications beyond that of good character are necessary or advisable. That it would be advantageous to the colleges if the body of prize fellows could be made to some extent a nursery for the educational or permanent fellows. As to jiaragraph 4 : That fellowships other than prize fellowships should be held only on the condition of the performance of definite and satisfactoiy work in the direction of education, or possibly, in very rare instances, of research. That if any fellowships are devoted to this latter purpose, the control of and appointment to these should rest, not in the hands of the governing bodies of colleges, but in those of some individual, or body, or individuals more specially qualified for the difficult and invidious task of appraising work of this nature, such, for instance, as those of the professors of the respective faculties, or of specially appointed committees of the university. That fellows so appointed should not have votes in the governing bodies of the colleges to which they are attached. That with regard to those fellows who are directly employed in education in the different colleges, it is desirable that they should be restrained from taking educational work outside their own colleges, except with the consent of the governing body of the college. As to the retention of the celibate restriction in its entirety or in some modified form : That it has the obvious advantages of keeping the tutor or lecturer in closer contact with his jmpils, if, as is usually the case, he resides in college ; and to a certain extent of enlarging the time which he can give to instruction. But that the counterbalancing disadvantages are far graver and more important. They are chiefly these : ^ (a) That the celibate restriction, by rendering the career of education at Oxford far less attrac- tive, makes it almost impossible for the colleges to contend successfully with continually increasing competition of the public schools, and the more tempting prizes of the learned professions ; and renders it still harder to retain those teachers who have proved tliemselves efficient. (/5) That this restriction presses very unequally upon laymen and clerics respectively ; since the latter, by reason of the large patronage of the colleges, are usually able to retire and marry Q 0223. S 138 considerably before middle life, on the acceptance of a college living. The former have no such resource. (y) The continual sense of the provisional nature of their tenure, and the looking forward to the acceptance of some other appointment or benefice on the part of those who have any notioft of marriage, whether present or future, very greatly impairs the value of the woi'k of a considerable number of those who do remain in residence. That aU the most promising methods of retaining a partial restriction seem open to fmore or less gi'ave objections. These methods seem to be : (a) That a certain definite number of fellows should be allowed to many, the seniors havino- fu’.st option. The obvious objection to such a plan would be the perpetual bickerings and ill-feeling to which it must needs give rise. For suppose when there be any vacancy in the number of fellows who are allowed to marry, A, who is the senior unmarried man, does not wish to marry at once, but thinks it possible that he may wish to do so in no distant future ; whereas B, who is next below A, wishes to marry at once ; then A must either resign his option to B, with the chance perhaps of not getting another for several years, or must appear to B in a very selfish and unfavourable light. (/3) That a limited number of fellows at the top of the list should be allowed to marry, but that their refusal to avail themselves of this right should not transfer it to their juniors. Here there would obviously be continual pressure on the senior men to resign and make vacancies, and their disinclination to do so would again be likely to produce much bad blood among the working staff. (y) That certain offices of the college should be free from the celibate restriction, which should still apply to the rest. If the offices descended by seniority, this would practically be the same thing as suggestion (a). If they were filled by election of the governing body, the scramble for them would lead to evermore canvassing and bad feelino’. (8.) That fellows should be allowed to marry after a certain number of years of service. This plan would be free from the objections which apply to the other three ; but would not insure the one chief advantage which is supposed to result from the celibate restriction — close and continual communication between the elder teachers and their pupils. It may well be that married tutors would not be able to devote quite as much time to education as is at present given by the celibate teachers, but as married men are capable of performing efficient!}'- all other functions and of attaining success in the most laborious profession.s, this would seem to prove that in term- time at least the pressure put upon a tutor in full work is greater than it should be. If the abolition of celibate restrictions brought about as a consequence the lengthening of terms and the .shortening of the hours of the tutor’s work in each day, a very considerable gain might result both to teachers and taught. The abolition of celibate restriction doubtless involves a scheme for compulsory retirement to insure a steady though gradual succession. Lastly, I would urge that it is all-important that equal measure should be meted out to all colleges in this matter. Unless this be done, the college which is less favoured will find it impossilde to keep up its supply of first-rate men, and will gradually but surely sink in the scale of educa- tional efliciency. As to clause 5 : That it is most desirable to insure such uniformity of tenure and emoluments of scholarships as may check the hurtful competition between the various colleges. As to clause 6 : That provision should doubtless be made in every college for the instruction of its students in science, but it by no means follows that that instruction need be given within the college walls. The attempt on the part of the individual colleges to give instruction with their own staff on all the subjects acknowledged in the curriculum of the university, involves them in the necessity of both employing less perfectly qualified instructors, and wasting a great deal of valuable time in the teaching of unnecessarily small classes. I am, &c. Richard Shute, Senior Student and Tutor of Christ Church. FROM THE REVEREND C. H. BROWNE, WORCESTER COLLEGE. Sir, . July 2, 1878. I HEREWITH send a letter, which Mr. Charles H. Browne, who is a Fellow of Worcester College, wished that I should transmit to the University of Oxford Commissioners. I have, &c. R. L. Cotton, Provost of Worcester College. T. F. Dallin, Esq., Secretary of the University of Oxford Commission. 139 27, Lansdown Crescent, Cheltenham, My Dear Mr. Provost, June 4, 1878. In reply to the list of questions in the paper the bursar has been good enough to forward from the Commissioners, I have the honour to lay before them the following observations. Nos. 1 and 2. The course of instruction given under your direction in our college, as in the margin,* appeared sufficient, and as much as might fairly be expected from the junior members, enforced by attendance at chapel and the general tone of the moral atmosphere of the college. To maintain and raise that tone it is desirable that the main body of fellows and tutors be in holy orders, not only because religion is the highest of all sciences, but to overcome the heathen! sing of the mind from the restricted study of classical writers and their principles. Few minds rise higher than the books they feed on. The tone of the common room has great influence on the undergraduate members, and great license is ostentatiously claimed by a lay tutoriate, if only to show that they are not clerical or bound by the severer rules applying to men in holy orders, and which cannot be thrown off. If parents refuse to place confidence in lay schoolmasters, naturally looking for the higher moral control over their childi-en, much more do they call for it in the higliest seats of learning ; and in the absence of this, and the increasing evils that follow, the more thoughtful are withdrawing their childi-en from the risks of a university education, and are sending them to the diocesan schools, in serious Dumbers, for pi’eparation for the ministry. This is as serious for the university as the church ; the one requires a learned clergy, the other cannot be sustained by training schoolmasters alone nor apart from the mass of clergy. The attempt already fails. Nos. 3 and 4. These arguments are reinforced by a consideration of the next questions. Both these depend really on the policy of Parliament, whether the colleges as seats of “ religion and learning ” are to remain connected with the great landed interests of the country. If so that can be upheld only through the fellows and their interests in tlie estates. The tutors form no bond of connexion with either’, and are yearly being drawn from a class which has no knowledge or share, actual or hereditary, with the land ; and the question is directly raised whether it be not in the interest of the land and the tenants tliat the connexion be terminated if the colleges fall into the hands of tutors and be reduced to boarding-houses for scholars under tlreir masters. It is in the wisdom of Parliameirt to determine both these issues. If the coirnexion is to be maintained, then the qualification of holy orders follows from religion being the highest study the university can foster, and from the urgency of maintaining a higher elevation of tone and object of life than any lay tutoriate can compass. A distinction of “ prize fellowships ” becomes injurious from dividing fellowships into two classes in which one must be lowered in esteem. The term “ prize ” is most iinfortunate. All fellowships by open competition are already “ prizes,” therefore the name is incorrect. But the third objection is that fellowships become reduced to the level of a school standard and school phrases, which no man of the age and the views with which a high-minded man is worthy of the office would tolerate. What man of mark, at the age of 30, would tolerate the term “ prize ” attached to his name, who by that time has learned to laugh at his “ school-prizes,” and would resent the designation as per- sonally injurious and wrongly describing the function of the office he has the honour to hold, degradintj it to school Avork ! Fellowships are endowments more or less permanent for self-devotion to the higher learning that follows on grammar, the work of the tutor. Few men can hope to do much service here under 10 years’ study and reflection, and if the tenure be reduced to 10 years he is driven to other ways of provision for after life, 1 0 years’ income giving him no means of insurance against the future or failure of health. Except by a life tenure, with restrictions, such as formerly existed. Parliament could not expect such devotion : and the higher studies must suffer or be pursued apart from the university, and the professoriate become a sinecure. Experience as well as policy rather points to a separation of fellowships and tutorships, and the making the latter tenable for 10 years, the fonner a life interest. Ten years’ work at grammar is sufficient for the Avell being of the tutor, and the men require young teachers, themselves but lately out of the schools. Let the tutorships then become the “ prizes,” held for 10 years and pay- able as natural, out of a tuition fund proportionate to the work done, and not out of the estates. By the end of 10 years a tutor ought to be engaged in the higher work. Let the fellowship remain a life interest in the common estate, due provision being made for zealous work in the higher study, and continue tlie bond of learning with the landed interests of the country. It is highly esteemed by the public opinion, which Avill always hold the tutorship as scholastic only, ranking it with schoolmasters and intramural work of the college ; but the fellow is held as possessing higher qualifications, and by virtue of his connexion with the land possessing a knowledge of the larger questions of life, and able to enter into them with an authority due to his corporate share in matters concerning the community at large outside the narrow limits of the college walls, which unconnected with the land he cannot reach. If the policy of Parliament is to support the higher learning of the university in its due dignity and influence, no channel seems open but through the fellowships ; to separate the tutorships from these and reconstitute each remains in the wisdom of Parliament. '* All men read thoroughly : two Gospels ; Acts of the Apostles ; Pearson on Creed ; 39 Articles ; Butler’s Analogy ; Old Testament History; St.John’s Gospel. Occasionally; Davison on Prophecy; Epistle to Hebrews; or other Epistle, as desired. In collections ; Paley’s Evidences ; Leslie’s Method ; .Jewell’s Apology. S 2 140 No. 5. Variety in the tenure and value of scholarships tends to a desirable opening for emulation, impracticable where all is reduced to a uniform dead level. No. 6. Without some compulsion from the university the grammar schools will not teach any natural science, and the temper of the age calls for knowledge of this, so that each candidate for Arts ought to bring up one subject, even at the expense of his classical literature. With unceasing interest in the welfare of the college and the advancement of all learning, I remain, &c. Charles H. Browne, Fellow and sometime Divinity Reader. To the Provost of Worcester College, Oxford. FROM THE REVEREND G. G. BRADLEY, M.A., MASTER OF UNIVERSITY COLLEGE. April 25, 1878. It is possible that the Commissioners would be willing to receive a communication on a question, which is likely to present a serious difficulty in framing the statutes of some colleges. There will be a tendency, on the one hand, to carry out to its full logical consequences the spirit of the Universities Test Act, and to remove everything that can bear the name of a “ clerical restriction ” from every office or emolument in the university or colleges. There will be, on the other hand, a strong conviction on the part of many who share the objections to “ clei’ical restrictions,” properly so called, that a refusal on the part of any college to make adequate provision for the religious worship and instruction of its members will be not only an evasion of the express terms as well as of the intentions of that Act, but also a grave shock to public opinion, and a step likely to produce serious evils of a kind not j)erhaps fully considered. The arguments in favour of “ making a clean sweep ” of eveiything that resembles a '' clei'ical restriction ” are easily stated. Such restrictions, it is said, belong to a state of things which public opinion and the Legislature have long since condemned. It is undesirable that any bribes should be offered to a young student to induce him to take holy orders. There is no reason, that will bear discussion, for especially protecting a single profession, or a single study. Why should the clergy of the Established Church have fellowships reserved for their exclusive use ? The field of competition for fellowships is already open to them ; if they cannot obtain success on the same terms as laymen, they cannot expect to be provided for by what will be equivalent to special legislation in their favour. The clerical fellow will himself suffer, and his profession be lowered in public estimation, by the limited competition by which he obtains his fellowship. If it should so happen that no member of the governing body of a college is in holy orders, that will be the result of a state of things Avhich cannot be remedied by falling back on protective measures. The college will meet the requirements of the law by engaging the services of a chajilain and religious insti'uctor for its undergraduates, and no injury will be done to any real educational interest. It is in connexion with these ax’guments, the force of which is undeniable, that the following suggestions are made. In the first place, it is possible that the Commissioners are hardly aware of the great disadvantage under which one study, that of theology, is at present suffering at Oxford. It is a branch of learning on the importance of which it is hardly necessary to dwell : and both at Oxford and in no less a degree at Cambridge it has attracted men of ability certainly not infei’ior to that of the ordinary fellow of a college. In former times a divinity paper formed a part of every fellowship examination. At present every moment which a young man gives, after taking his degree, to the study of Hebrew, or of the Old or New Testament, or of any other branch of theology, is a pure loss of time, so far as the obtaining a fellowship is concerned. It is the one branch of study recognised in the honour schools of the university for which, with one or two exceptions, no college has made any kind of provision, and it is much to be hoped that in the interest of both learning, education, and religion, that so serious an oversight may be remedied. But of course the real answer to the arguments given above lies elsewhere. It is not merely, or mainly, in the interests of theology, as still a great and fruitful field of study, that the import- ance of retaining some clerical element in the governing body of colleges appears desirable. A college is by its statutes, which have the force of law, a place of religion, learning, and education. It receives and undertakes the charge of young men from the age of 18 to that of 22. Some who are indifferent or opposed to the extension of any clerical, or even religious, influence on the part of the college, wish the age of entrance to be generally eaidier than it is at jxresent. A large, by far the largest, proportion of the undergraduates who enter university life by becoming- resident members of colleges, to whose moral supervision they are entrusted by their parents, have been more or less religiously brought up. Many of them, to say the least, are of an age and character singularly open to religious iinjxressions. There are exceedingly few whose parents would wish them to be entirel}'- withdrawn from religious influences. At the great majority of the schools from which they come these influences have formed a vei-y prominent and valued part of the education they have received. It is therefore not unnatural that the Legislature should have expressly provided that every college shall provide facilities for daily worshijx, and also religious instruction for all members of the Church of England whom it admits to its society. 141 In presence of these facts, what may not improbably be the state of tilings in colleges in which no provision exists that some member of the governing body shall himself undertake the care of the religious worship and instruction of the undergraduates ? In a small college it may very easily happen, if no such provision is made, that at no distant date, neither the head nor any fellow of the college will be in holy orders. Small societies, with full power of electing to vacancies in their own body, are apt to take, for a time at least, a some- what uniform tone and colour. Those who have had much experience in the elections to fellowships will not place much confidence in the result of competitive examinations as a remedy against this danger. On the contrary such examinations, consisting as they do to a large extent of questions set on the most important subjects by men of strong opinions and formed habits of thought, have a direct tendency to encourage the same type of thought as prevails in the examiners, and to discourage any marked divergence from it. It is not too much to say that, considering the great difficulty of deciding between candidates whose papers show various kinds of excellence, a very few individual fellows of a college — possibly exceedingly indifferent to the educational interest of the college, still more indifferent to or ignorant of the general tone of feeling in English society, and perhaps still smarting from the former “ cleiical domination ” of ■ Oxford life ; perhaps also reflecting on antagonism, not so much English as Continental, between “ clericalism ” and ‘‘ anti-clericalism ” — might make a point of steadily voting, consciously or unconsciously, against any clerical or “ clerically-minded ” candidate. The result might be a complete exclusion from the college of all but laymen. Of these it might easily happen that none, or scarcely one, would affect to take any real interest in the religious worship or instruction of the college. They would never, or rarely, enter the college chapel ; they would decline, and rightly decline, to give any religious instruction. If in accordance with the terms of the Act they offered such instruction, the under- graduates would show no anxiety to avail themselves of it. The following would no doubt be the result. A sum would be set aside, probably a very small one, for the payment of a chaplain to read the statutable daily and Sunday services in chapel. Po.ssibly, but only possibly, a small sum would be set apart from the tutorial fees received for undergraduates for an instructor in “ Pass ” Divinity. Such a chaplain, even if he were also made a college lecturer, would have absolutely no authority in the college ; he would not even be qualifled to attend college meetings, where he could have no position and no vote. He would probably be non-resident. It is almost impossible that he would be a man likely to exert influence ; for the men who win influence under adverse circum- stance.s are not those who would be likely to accept so questionable a position ; they would find other fields for their energy, and would exert far greater influence, even among undergraduates, by gaining and exerting that influence free from an official tie, which carried with it the badge of a subordinate and inferior position. Under these circumstances what would be the result ? The religious men in college would dislike the chapel services, conducted as they would be by a comjiarative stranger. For weekly or for Sunday worship, for the sacrament, for sermons, they would go elsewhere. The mere “ hireling” chaplain would, in the absence of compulsory attendance, which neither could or would be enforced by a non-attending governing body, find that he had the chapel services almost entirely to himself I am speaking, it will be remembered, not of large societies in which natural causes would doubtless secure a fair share of clerical fellows, but of the more common case of colleges with a small number of fellows in their governing body, and in which there would be a greater probability of a somewhat narrow and intolerant spirit (which experience shows to be by no means confined to clerical circles; influencing the government of the college and even the election to fellowships. The effects of the Avithdrawal of any profession of religious influence on the part of the entire governing body of a college would extend much further than to the virtual suppression of religious worship. Under the state of things which I have supposed, there would probably be no one in the college whom an undergraduate would think of consulting, no one at all events whom he would feel that he had a right to consult, on any religious difficulty, or religious question, with any hope of sympathy or guidance. Those who know young men, and have ever exercised influence over them, will know that such cases are far from rax’e, and they will know what would be implied by the full establishment of entire want of sympathy on such subjects between the whole staff of tutors and the whole body of undergraduates. The undergraduate whose religious convictions or feelings were strong, would go alike for worship and for .sympathy outside his college walls. The most potent on many minds of all sources of influence would pass into other hands, and the mere fact of its doing so, not tacitly but avowedly and on grounds which could not be gainsaid, would make a formidable inroad on the influence, never too great, exerted by the college tutor ; the alienation of “ dons ” and undergraduates, often lamented, would be aggravated by an additional ground for the want of sympathy which often lies at the root of the disorders and discomforts of college life. Y ear after year men would leave the college with the sense that the aid which they most valued had been gained elsewhere, and denied them by those to whose moral guardianship they had been committed. College life is unmeaning if the idea of .some moral guax’dianship is withdrawn. Once let the idea be e.stabli.shed that a college means nothiixg more than a lax-ge boarding establishment in which young xxxen lodge and pay rooxix rents and fees to older xnen, whose duties to thexxx end whexx they have received their fees, arx-anged their lectures, assisted them in their preparatioxx fox- university examixxation.s, and visited axxy Ixeinous breach of discipline witli rustication or expid.sioxx, S 3 142 and the question will arise how far the college system is worth preserving, socially or economically ; whether that system could )iot be as eftectively, and far, very far more cheaply administered by other officials appointed by and responsible to a central authority ; in short, whether the college itself, as a separate corporation of fellows and tutors, is worth maintaining. A tutor of views more or less incompatible with the ]n'ofession of a clergyman, may and often does exert a great and a salutary influence over undergraduates. Such men would f)e the last to under- value the importance of at least a serious and respectful attitude towards religious convictions ; but the results of any approach to an experiment of committing the care of young Englishmen to a society of their elders Avho showed an entire indifterence to their religious needs, and this is the case which is here being considered, have not thus far been reassuring. Of course, supposing such a state of things as has been indicated above to arise in a single college, the result would be obvious to anyone with any experience of the feelings of English parents. Such a college would simpl}^ fail to attract undergraduates. There may be some persons to whom such a result may not seem formidable, but the Commissioners will probably be of opinion that even if the interests of religion may be set aside, those of education are not wholly to be slighted, and that colleges which failed to discharge their duties as educational corporations would certainly be soon called upon to justify their existence. But setting this question on one side, should the withdrawal of all profession of any religious duties towards undergraduates on the part of college authorities spread widely in the university, means would of course be found, in a nation so religious as England still is, to supply the need. Indeed, the change might be far from unpalatable to zealous men who are anxious to enlist in the ranks of one or other party in the Chui’ch the symj)athies of the religious and more impressible of the undergraduates. An active machinery Avmdd soon be set at work by members of our own, and doubtless of at least one other church, the Roman communion, to atti'actand secure the allegiance of the rising generation of young men Avho, unless the future is to be very unlike the ]>ast, will one day do much to mould the history of English thought and English ])olitics. Opportunities for I’eligious worship and insti'uction would be offered and accepted outside the college walls ; rival teaching on the most im- poi'tant of all questions influencing directly theii’ life, conduct, and convictions of faith, woiild be pressed on the attention of young men just emerging from boyhood ; and a lich harvest of influence Avould be reaped by those who Avould rightfully enter into the field which the colleges had deliberately abandoned. Is there, therefore, anything which deserves the name of “ reactionary ” or “ obstractive,” or merely “ clerical policy,” in suggesting that in the interests alike of religion and education every college should be bound to include in its governing body at least one fellow Avho should be responsible to the college for taking paid in the chapel services and, if desired by the college, in the religious instruction offered to its rmdergraduates. Such chaplain-fellows, or fellow, would be elected by the college under any circumstances where no existing fellows were qualified and were appointed to imdertake the post. The mode of their election, whether by examination or by direct appointment by the college, Avould be a matter decided by the statutes of each college. The statutes would also decide as to theii' tenure, whether, for instance, they should be elected for a term of years, and only hold their felloAvships on condition of and whilst acting as chaplains, or whether under other conditions. But it seems to me a matter of vital importance that in any case means should be taken to provide, so long as colleges are by statute bound to provide for the religious worship and instruction of their members, that that worship and instruction should be in the hands of members of the college with a full place on its governing body, and not delegated to any one whose position must necessarily be subordinate and inferior to that of the college tutor. I am, &e. G. G. Bradley. FROM J. BARCLAY THOMPSON, M.A., SENIOR STUDENT OF CHRIST CHURCH. Christ Church, Oxford, Sir, July 1, 1878. In accordance with the invitation of the University Commissioners, I desire to express my opinions upon the questions which you have forwarded to me. 1. The religious instruction required in colleges is at present of two kinds, for the Honour School of Theology and for the rudiments of faith and religion. Our experience at Christ Church shows that one tutor is more than sufficient, even in a college of larger size, to provide all the instruction needed by candidates for honours in the Theological School. A great part of such instruction AviU always necessarily be given by the various Divinity professors. I believe, therefore, that one tutor would be quite sufficient, in any college, to give such additional instruction and assistance as candidates for honours in theology may I'equii'e. The number of men who require instruction by means of lectures or otherwise in the rudiments of faith and religion is considerable. In the small colleges one tutor could easily cover both the honour and pass work, but in the large colleges another tutor would be required. These two tutors should share the honour and pass work between them, and even in the lai-gest colleges would amplj^ provide for religious instruction. They should be in holy orders at the time of their election and should be elected Avith a view to this particular kind of Avork. The religious services in colleges should be conducted by the theological tutor or tutors rather than by chaplains from outside paid as readers of prayers. 143 2. The qualification of lioly orders should not, I think, continue to be necessary for fellowships or Headships of colleges. I believe that it is a qualification demoralising to the man elected, injurious to the college, and disastrous to the church. I have myself known cases where men elected on the promise to take orders have changed their minds and have given up everything and resigned their fellowships rather than violate their consciences ; but I have known othei's who have acted very differently. This temptation I hope the Commissioners will now remove. Again, I have known cases where the lowest man on the list has been elected after an examination because those who stood above him would not promise to take orders. Such cases are not uncommon. I have been told more than once by men who have taken orders under the j>resent system, that they now exceedingly regret the step they then took while young and under the pressure of the threatened loss of a fellowship. These are the men to whom in due course college livings will be offered. As 'might be expected, not a few college livings are mismanaged and many neglected. In some cases, indeed, the clerical fellow, after a brief and irksome sojourn in the country, re-appears in Oxford as a tutor, while he leaves his pari.sh to the care of a curate, a peifectly legal, but not unobjectionable, form of pluralism. Men are now bribed to take orders by the prize of a fellowshiji or readership, and bribed again to take a living by a greatly increased income and freedom to marry. It may be interesting to the Commissioners to know the state of feeling on this matter in a large" college like Christ Church ; where, also, an extremely large proportion of the whole governing body (two-thirds) must be in holy orders. A vote was recently taken in the Governing Body on the motion to reduce the clerical restriction from two-thirds of the whole (as at present) to one-third. If the Avhole Governing Body had been present the motion would have been lost only by a majority of one. As it was, it was carried. The Dean, the Archdeacon, the late junior Censor, the two present Censors, and (with four exceptions) the whole educational staff of the college voted for the reduction of the restriction to one-third. Those who voted for the retention of the present two-thirds restriction were five canons, six stiidents on the old foinrdation (two of whom have hardly ever attended a college meeting and none of whom discharge any educational work in the college) ; these with the four exceptions mentioned above (of whom three are clergymen), together with two non-resident senior students (clergymen), make up the number of those who voterayers in the college chapel. 3. The new ordinance sent in by the Governing Body of Christ Church for the approval of the Commissioners represents, on the whole, my vieAvs as to the terms of the tenure of prize fellow- ships. I differ from that scheme in thinking that it is most desirable that prize fellows should have a vote on the Governing Body, although not resident in Oxford. I believe that these non- resident fellows, few in number as compared with the resident members of the Governing Body, are a valuable element in the constitution of such bodies. They are comparatively free from local interests and personal jealousies, and they bring the force of outside opinion and practice to bear upon the body. Most of them are engaged in some })rofessional career, and their special knowledge is often of service to the college. 5. I think there should be a considerable decrease in the value of scholarships, and that this decrease should be uniform throughout the university. The case of men Avho really need assistance in order to pursue their studies in Oxford, should be met by placing a fund at the disposal of the college officers, which could be applied on the recommendation of the tutor, according to the special requirements in each case. In my opinion it Avoiild not be at present advisable to put the limit of age for candidates for the natural science scholarships below 19 or 20. Most of these men get Avhat knowledge of science they have, after passing through a course of general education at school. This preliminary general literary training I believe to be of great importance, and I think full time should be allowed for it before any great amoimt of special scientific work should be undertaken. I have often had pupils who knoAv a fair amount of some branch of science, but Avho could not spell correctly, noi- put their thoughts into words, except with the greatest difficulty. In the case of scholarships given for subjects other than natui-al science, I think the limits of age should be lowered, and that this limit, should be ixniform in all colleges. All uniform changes in this direction would, I believe, increase considerably the number of candidates for scholarships. Many parents would send their sons up to the university if they had a good chance of a scholarship at 16 to 18 years of age, who would not or could not do so with the 20 years’ limit. A fair uniformity in the movement of knowledge required for the scholarships of a college, and in the length of tenure of such scholarships, is, I think, desii’able. Some change in the value and conditions of tenure of the Westminster scholarships at Christ Church is much needed. Many of these scholars are far inferior in capacity to the open scholars, but they hold their scholarships for a longer time, they receive a larger stipend, and in addition to all this a considerable sum yearly from the “ Carey benefaction.” I should prefer myself to throAv open all scholarships to general competition ; but if school scholarships are retained at colleges, power should be given to the governing body to throw them open, for that turn, in case no eligible candidate Irom the school presented himself The present system as at Christ Church is an injury to the schoolboys and to the college. The former have not an adequate incentive to work, and the latter is burdened with a yearly load of idle or incapable persons. There is ample evidence of this as far as the Westminster scholars at Christ Church are concerned ; a survey of the class list for the last 12 years shows that with very few exceptions they have gained very few high classes, whilst the open scholars have obtained very many. S 4 144 6. I think it would be most desirable to make provision in colleges (especially those of a larger size) for elementary instruction in one or more branches of natural science, A great gap intervenes between the professor and the demonstrator, and this gap the college tutor in science should fill up. As Lee’s reader, I have found how much assistance and guidance men legitimately require which they cannot expect to get from either professor or demonstrator. It is quite possible to give men too much assistance, but I think we do not run that risk in teaching natural science here. Expensive apparatus and large laboratories are not possible, nor, I think, desirable in colleges ; but the necessary plant for ordinary work, chemical or anatomical, need not be very costly. Men begin- ning their studies would derive much help from such laboratories, and these too would be centres of scientific interest and scientific work in each college. The higher work, as a rule, must be done at the larger museum laboratories. It should be the duty of the college tutor to direct and assist bis. pupil who is working in the museum, and to supplement in a less formal way the instruction which he is receiving there. 4. The new Christ Church scheme represents my views regarding the tenure of fellowships other than’prize fellowships. They should be free from the restriction of celibacy as well as from the clerical qualification. Fellows should be compelled to retire after about 30 years’ service, and should then receive a pension vaxying in amount with the length of time they have served the college. I am, &c, J. Barclay Thompson, M.A., Junior Proctor, Senior Student of Christ Church, and Dr. Lee’s Reader in Anatomy. FROM A. G. VERNON HARCOURT, SENIOR STUDENT OF CHRIST CHURCH. Sir, July 12, 1878. In reply to the circular letter. No. 10, from the University of Oxford Commission, of which you were good enough to send me a copy, I wish to offer my opinions on one or two of the questions suggested. I will refer to these questions in order as they are numbered in the circular letter. 1. I do not think it necessary or desirable to impose restrictions upon the different colleges with the view of providing for religious instruction and religious services therein. Apart from the senti- ments with regard to the duty of making such provisions which are likely to be entertained by a considerable number of the governing body of each college, I believe that public opinion, and in particular the wishes of the parents by Avhom one college or another is chosen for their sons’ educa- tion, furnish sufficient security against the abolition in any of the existing colleges of religious services or instruction. There are now considerable difterences between different colleges in the obligation upon under- graduates of attendance at religious services, and in the amount, and no doubt also in the character, of the religious instruction provided. Such differences may probably increase ; and parents will partly be guided in their choice of a college by the practice of colleges in these respects, and its accordance or disaccordance with their wishes for their sons' education. Such a diversity and variety of choice is, in my o])inion, desirable ; and I think it rvould not be weU to interfere by legislative restrictions with the natural adaptation of the management of individual colleges to the wishes of the class to whom they purvey. 2. Thinking, as I do, that the different colleges may be trusted to make provision for religious instruction and religious services, although the members of their governing bodies are elected with- out the requirement, except at the discretion of the college, of the qualification of holy orders, I wish to see this requirement removed from the statutes of colleges. 5. It seems to me highly desirable to aim at uniformity in the value of scholarships on the foundations of the different colleges. Under the present system each college has to consider, in fixing the number and value of its scholarships, not only what it judges to be the best distribution of its endowments, but also the necessity of bidding against other colleges. The effect of this has been, I think, to raise unduly the value of scholarships. No minimum limit is neces.sary or de- sirable ; but a maximum limit of 701. or 80^. imposed upon all colleges would be a welcome restriction. The conditions of tenure might be left to be determined by each college within certain limits, and, so far as they are to be prescribed by statute, should be so prescribed according to the expe- rience and wishes of individual colleges. It may be well that there should be some variety in respect of the conditions of age, or university standing, lengdh of tenure, as well as in the nature of the examination, at different colleges. 0. I think it highly desirable that the elements of natural science should rank with the elements of history, geography, and mathematics, as a part of general education. But I should prefer that the question of making provision for instruction in these subjects should be left to the judgment of the several colleges. What it is wise for the colleges to do in this respect must depend upon (1) what is required by the University in its degree examinations, (2) what is supplied by the public and other schools. Both of these are likely to vary considerably within a few years as the importance of natural science as a subject of general education is more widely recognised. What I hope to see in 145 the future is a considerable extension of’ the teaching of natural science at school ; and when this has come to pass it would not be necessary for colleges to provide elementary instruction, except perhaps of a somewhat more advanced character, for those wishing to make some part of natural science one of the subjects of their examination for an ordinary degree, or for candidates for honours in one branch of natural science wishing to refresh or extend their knowledge of another branch. For instruction of this kind provision would be made by the university professors and by college lecturers under the “ combined ” system. I may be allowed to add that in my opinion some general examination should be instituted for those leaving school and about to enter the University, in which the elements of natural science should form one of the principal subjects. I am, &c. The Reverend T. Vere Bayne. A. Vernon Harcourt. FROM ORIEL COLLEGE. My Lord, July 11, 1878. I AM instructed by this college to reply to the printed letter from the University of Oxford Commission, dated 30th May 1878, in which the Commissioners invited the governing bodies of colleges to express opinions on certain questions, with a view to the general principles on which those questions ought to be dealt with in the interests of the university as a place of religion, learning, and education. Most of the points raised in the letter of the Commissioners have been recently discussed by the college, and resolutions regarding them have been provisionally adopted with a view to the new statutes which the college proposes to submit in due course to the Comrpissioners. In these cases I am authorised to state the substance of the resolutions agreed to, in such a form as will serve to convey the opinion of the college on the general principles involved. 1. With the view of securing a provision for religious instruction, it has been resolved to set apart a sum from the tuition fund for lectures in divinity. It is contemplated that the lectures would usually be given by one or more of the tutors. There is at present a theological lectureship with a small endowment from a separate trust, the holder of which gives lectures for undergraduates reading for the Honour School of Theology. The college is averse to creating a distinct office for the other divinity lectures, preferring that they should continue to be part of the duties for which the tutors are collectively responsible. With regard to the chapel services, it is proposed that chaplains who are fellows shall receive a stipend at the rate of 100^. for the whole duties of the chapel ; that any chaplain who is not a fellow shall be paid at the rate of 200/. a year for the same duties ; that the college shall have power to elect any such chaplain to be ex ojjicio fellow (i.c., to be a member of the governing body, not sharing in dividend), and that every chaplain shall be a member of tlie college and of common room. As several pi’oposals on this subject were before the college, I am asked to mention one besides the scheme actually adopted. According to this second proposal the chaj)el services would be provided for by means of a chaplain fellowship, the holder of Avhich should be bound to perform jiart at least of the duties of the chapel. It was proposed that in case such a fellowship were created, there should be a stipend of 100/. a year, distinct from the emoluments of the fellowship, and that this stipend should be shared between the chaplain fellow and any other persons who should perform part of the duties ; also that there should be power to suspend the election to the chaplain fellowship, in case of there being two resident fellows in holy orders willing to undertake the duties of the chapel. 2. The college has resolved, in connexion with the foregoing resolutions, to pi'opose that the qualification of holy orders shall not continue to be necessary for fellowships. The proposals of the college regarding the Headship have already been submitted to the Commissioners. 3. The college desires that the fellowships should be tenable for life, and that the existing x'estrictions should be retained, except in certain cases. They px’opose, however, to reduce the value of fellowships to two-thirds of the present amount (say to 200/. a year), if a sinxilar redxxctioxx is ixxade in the fellowships of other colleges. In case the fellowships are not ordinarily teixable for life, it is suggested that a person elected to a fellow.ship should have the option, to be exercised within (say) two years fx-onx electioix, of holding it either for (say) 12 years, with freedom as to residence and occupation, or for life, subject to the condition of pixrsuing the stxxdy of soxne branch of learning in Oxford or iix some place approved by the college as being better suited for the pux-suit of a particular branch of leax’ning. 4. It is thoxxght by the college that the tixtors ought in all cases to be xnembers of the governing body. It is proposed accox’dingly that whenever a fellow is appointed to a tutorship he shall become entitled to hold his fellowship so long as he coxxtinues to be tutor. Fellowships so held would ixot generally be subject to the condition of celibacy ; bixt it is intended to reserve the power of imposing such restrictions as may be necessary in order to secure a sufficient number of tutors x-esident within the college. In the case of a person not a fellow being appointed tutox’, it is px’oposed that he shall at once becoxixe ex ojjicio fellow of the college, and that the college shall have power, on aixy vacancy occurring Q 6223. T i 146 in the fellowships, to annex a fellowship to his tutorship, the emolnments of the fellowshiji being counted in lieu of part of his stipend as tutor ; the maximum number of fellowships so annexed to tutorships being fixed at (say) four. 5. The college is of opinion that the limit of age for open scholarships should be put lower in all colleges. They would propose that no candidates be admitted above the age of 18. They think that no scholarship should be above the value of 80^. a year. 6. The college thinks that it would not bo desirable to provide elementary instruction in natural science for all undergraduates. I have, (fee. D. B. Monro, The Right Hon. Lord Selbornc. Vice-Provost. FROM THE REVEREND J. WORDSWORTH, M.A., TUTOR OF BRASENOSE COLLEGE. My Lords and Gentlemen, Jidy 12, 1878. I VENTURE to trouble you Avith some remarks in ansAver to the printed questions addressed to members of the governing bodies of colleges (No. 10, dated May 1878). Though not at the present time a fellow of my college, I have been for more than eleven years upon its teaching staff, for more than ten of Avhich I have been a tutoi-. While, therefore, I have had no share in the common answer which has, I believe, been sent in by the college meeting I may lay claim to as large a knowledge of the requirements of this and other colleges, and as lively an interest in their Avelfare, as is possessed by some at least of the existing fellows, six* of whom are junior to myself. Question 1. The question of the best mode of making proper and effectual proAusion for religious instruction and religious services in the different colleges. Answer 1. The best mode of making effectual provision for religious instruction and religious services in the different colleges is in my oj)inion to have a sufficient number of clerical felloAvs, with regular duties assigned to them just as if they Avere incumbents of parishes Avith cure of souls, and to" elect them with special reference to the Avork to be done. The minimum number necessary for the purposes of education alone in a college like our oAvn, of about 140f undergraduates, would seem to be four such fellows. In making this calcidation we must consider not only the demands of the Tlmological School (which requires very Avide reading), and of the pass divinity examinations of the uniA^ensity (AA'liich are harder than is generally supposed), and the due conduct of the chapel services: Ave must also bear in mind the less formal, but most important, duties, Avhich devolve iqion a college tutor, of guiding and helping his jiupils at a critical period of their lives. It may also be remarked that a smaller number than four leaves no margin for ill-health, or A^ai’iety of capacity. It is necessary that such felloAVS shouhl be in priest’s orders either at the time of their election or Avithin a reasonable period after it, and that no one shoidd be elected who did not first profess his intention of taking holy orders. I consider it highly desirable that all clerical fellows should have the duty of preaching Avithin the college chapel in turn, and of celebrating the Holy Com- munion, as is the usage amongst the canons of cathedral churches, to which college chapels are assimilated by the order given in the fourth rubric at the end of the communion office. Such duties would bring home to them their responsibilities in a Avay which the existing system has often failed to do. Other details in the regulation of the services might be left to them in concert with the principal, instead of to the mixed college meeting, Avhich under the existing constitution is hardly a fit body for the purpose. Question 2. The question Avhether the qualification of holy orders should continue to bo necessary for fellowships or Headships of colleges not specially connected with the duty of giving- religious instruction, or conducting religious services. Ansroer 2. The qualification of holy orders should in my opinion be retained for the Headship of our OAvn college, inasmuch as this is the best guarantee that it will continue to be a place of religion, and is calculated to give confidence to those Avho entrust their sons to our care. I consider also that the present proportion of clerical fellows should genei’ally be retained at this and other colleges. At Brasenose the number is noAv six out of ffteen.% This is none too many considering the o-eneral interests of religion and the peculiar connexion between the church and the universities. It is necessary, however, that the election should be conducted bond fide Avith the view of securing the best candidate Avho is desirous of taking holy orders. Difficulties have sometimes occurred in colleges from men presenting themselves Avho had no such intention, but Avho hoped to find means of being excused from the condition when once they Avere elected. Candidates should therefore either be in holy orders, or be required to proceed to deacon’s orders within one year, and to priest’s order Avithin two years of their election. * Seven including a probationer fellow. Of the six the senior took his B.A. degree in 1870, the other five in the years 1872- 1874. The whole body of fellows entitled to vote is nine. t Now about 130. That is according to the latest ordinances. But .at the present moment there .are only ten fellows, of whom are in orders. Fi^ fellowships are suspended. The smallness of the body ought to be con.sidered in weighing their answers. ]47 In support of tlxese two answers I would beg leave to offer the following observations Clerical fellowships have a twofold relation (1) to the church, (2) to the colleges. In the first place they are benefices belonging to the church, i.e. places of duty, trust, and emolument, which can no more be held by laymen then rectories or vicarages. They may be suppressed, and 0 })en fellowships founded in their place, but this must be done advisedly and as a measure of sequestration, not represented as if no one was the worse for it. I have sometimes heard it argued — “ If the clerical candidate is as clever as the lay candidate for an open fellowship, “ he will be elected ; and if not, what harm is done ? you would not wish an inferior man to be “ elected.” But the answer to this is, “ The two men are not candidates for the same office.” The so-called “ layman ” may be a man of any or no belief. In any case he cannot perform the office which the clerical fellow fulfils of being a visible and permanent link between the church and the university, and of bringing ministers of the church into contact with the rising generation of gentlemen and professional men. A layman, again, in filling such a fellowship is keeping out a man who may possibly be his inferior in ability, but who, by his ordination vows is pledged to a life of greater self-denial and diligence, es})ecially in certain studies, and who is by his profession generally debarred from rising above mediocrity in point of wealth. Lastly, is it not true to affirm that the connexion between religion and culture, which sets this country so much above many continental states, is largely due to the higher position assured to the clergy in the universities ? No thoughtful man can look without pain upon the low intellectual position of the clergy in many Koman Catholic countries, or on the arid theology of Protestant Germany (chiefly in the hands of lay professors), which has little or no bearing upon personal religion. The action taken in this matter by the Commission may either advance or retard a similai- disastrous state of things in England. (2.) Clerical fellowships have also an important function in their relation to the colleges. According to the provisions of the Universities Tests Act they are the only guarantees of any religious belief whatever, the only external safeguards not merely for the doctrines of the church of England, but for the elementary belief in the being of God and tlie future life of man. It is certain that the latter simple ti'uths are not held, or are held very slightly, by some persons who are members of the governing bodies of difterent colleges, and that there is no external preventive against their increase. It is thercfoi'c desirable that the clerical fellowships should not be I'educed to the mere minimum necessary for teaching purposes ; but that in some colleges at least there should be guarantees that young men will meet with a general Christian training, such as is only possible in the atmosphere of a college moderately united in its tone. And, further, I do not hesitate to claim for the clergy a peculiar position in regard to education, which is of the highest importance in the restless current of modern life. The grace of ordination gives to a man, who uses it rightly, a power of dealing with the moral difficulties of his pupils which others do not possess. It gives him an increased courage in speaking to them and a consciousness of pastoi'al duty, which is not unfelt by the best lay tutors (some of whom are beyond all praise) but which cannot move the generality of them as it does their clerical colleagues. It would indeed seem a matter of common sense that the feeling of those who send their sons to the universities should be consulted on this almost vital question. The vast majority of our students are members of the Established Church, and a large body of them are candidates for ordination. From careful statistics taken by a friend for the last 10 years (18G8-1877), I calculate that at any given moment during this period some 550* men were in residence who have been or will be ordained ; that is to say, considerably more than one fifth of oui- whole body of undergraduates. The attendance at the lectures of the Regius Professor of Divinity shows that a larger proportion have had the idea of ordination before them. The number of Oxford men who arc ordained might in fact easily be increasedf with proper attention on the part of the colleges, but the threatened changes will, I fear, greatly tend to diminish it. Many of the more earnest men will go to theological colleges instead of to the universities, while the weaker among those who still come to us will be diverted to other professions, most of which are overstocked ; and thus the tie which for centuries has connected the universities with the education of the clergy, will be materially loosened, if not entirely severed. Our college, for example, has been remarkably happy in the large number of clergymen of high character and unpretending good sense which it has sent forth. If this class, mainly consisting of the sons of clergymen, should be driven elsewhere, wo should cease to perform a most useful work, Avithout gaining any tangible advantage in its place. We should be doomed to educate a far larger proportion of disappointing and disappointed men. It may be worth while also to remark that clerical fellows, by moving off naturally to college livings and other duties, relieve the college, when their period of academical work is over, without requiring pensions as lay fellows would assuredly do. I fear indeed that the suggestion may be made in some quarters of selling the college livings to form a pension fund for retiring fellows. It is to be hoped, however, that public opinion will be strong enough to resist so undesirable an ex])edient. It might be some compensation for the loss of clerical fellowships, where the number was diminished, if the Commissioners directed that college livings should not be sold without consent of some superior authority — such as that of the visitor — but that vacancies should be offered * The total of Oxford graduate.s ordained deacons in the last 10 years is 1,526. Taking their average residence at 3^ year.s, and multiplying 1.52 -6 by 3 ‘5, 1 calculate that 534 of the ordained graduates have been re.sident together as undergraduates! The remainder (16) is made up of undergraduates, a certain number of whom are ordained every year, generally after residence at a theological college. t At the last ordination (Trinity 1878) as many as 76 Oxford graduate.s were ordained deacons. fl' 2 148 to former members of the college, with some preference for members of the foundation, if an existing fellow was not presented by the college. Question 3. The question of the terms, as to duration and otherwise, on which prize fellowships in any college should be held. Ansiuer 3. The creation of a distinct class of prize fellowships without any duties seems an undesirable step, and one which, in my opinion, and I believe in that of other members of our college, would seriously cripple the proposed measures of university extension and reform. Before it is finally determined upon the Commissioners might be asked to consider Avhether to do so would not be to stereot}’pe what is a lax habit I'ather than a legitimate system, and to divert formally a large sum of money from direct and fruitful application to university purposes. I have noticed lately the growth of a feeling amongst young men, who have been elected to fellowship, s, against treating them simpl}^ as sinecures, which leads them to a.sk themselves “ What do we owe to the “ college as its fellows ? ” They are conscious that they may be called into residence, even if the force exei’cised upon them is rather moral than material. They feel in fact that the college is at least a possible home to them, and as such they take great interest in it even at a distance. They know that they can at any moment return to it, and immediately take part in university and college business ; and as a matter of fact many do so after a few years’ absence, becoming all the more useful from the experience so gained. But the prize fellowships would seem to be simply pensions for the acquisition of knowledge and to give a very slight connexion with university or college life. The system which I would recommend in place of the present practice, which obviously requires reform, is a very simple one. Let all fellows alike, whether elected after examination or co-opted under other regulations, hold their fellowships for a limited period (say seven years from the standing for M.A. degree), but allow those who hold resident college offices not to count the term of residence in this period. One who resided from the first as an officer of the college would in this way hold his fellow, ship during his term of re.sidence + seven years ; a non-resident would hold it only for seven years, but if during this time the college wished for his services, he might come back into residence and still enjoy his fellowship for some years after his retirement. If, however, it is determined to ci’eate a wholly novel class of prize fellow.ships, they .should, in my opinion, be guarded from abuse by being made few in number and limited in stijDend and length of tenure. They should be not less than 100^., or more than lo0(. or 200/. a year in value, to be held for a term of jive or seven years, dating from the time when the fellow was of standing to take his M.A. degree. An average ot' eigld a year in the whole university would probably be sufficient, namely, two or three for classics, and one apiece for the other five schools recognised by the university. A year’s probationar}' residence at Oxford or some other university should also be required, during which the fellow should })roduce proof of continued study to the satisfaction of the professors of the faculty in which he graduated. Even this limited amount of prize fellow.ships would cost the university through the colleges from 4,800/. to 12,800/. a year, counting the average tenure as six or eight years. It is, I think, important that such fellowships should be given equitably for the different subjects r'eoognised in the university examinations, as at present the rewards for other than classical study are left far too much to chance. Fellows on this foundation would, I suppose, be free to marry. Question 4. The conditions of tenure of such fellow.ship.s, other than prize fellowships, as it may be de.sirable to retain in colleges. Answer 4. If this system of prize fellowships is adopted, other fellow.ships .should, I think, .still 1)6 tenable for life, but generally on condition of official residence, and .should be avoided by the acceptance of ecclesiastical or civil ])referment of a certain value, or of a pension from the college. In a college like our own not less than nine residents are required to perform the duties of internal management and instruction, and to look after the college property. Other fellowships might naturally be held with advantage by professors, or by members of the college who had served long periods as residents. Of the nine residents four at least, in my opinion, should reside within the college walls, one of whom should be in priest’s orders, and one a M.A. of eight or ten years’ standing. The remainder would have leave to marry under certain conditions to be regulated by statute. Some of them might have houses attached to the colleges (as is the case already at Balliol and New College), while others might fitly be put in charge of hostels for undergraduates. Some provisions of this kind are necessary if the unity of college feeling is to be kept up, and married fellows are to retain their proper infiuence and to bear their proper share of the burden of discipline. Regulations would also probably be necessary for the creation of a pension fund, and for determining the period of service after which a college officer should retire. The pension fund might be partly made up by the college, j^artly by taxing the stipends of officers so much per cent., cai’e being taken to make a separate entry of each fellow’s contributions, and to allov.^ bim a proportionate amount of pension. I do not, however, feel clear as to the best mode of dealing with this point. Question 5. The question how far it is de.sirable to aim at uniformity in the value and conditions of tenure of scholarships on the foundations of the difierent colleges. Answer 5. The questions as to the tenure and value of scholarships has often been discussed amongst tutors and others interested in education in this place. A general feeling prevails that the limit of age is at present too high, and that the custom of colleges bidding against one another l>v increasing the value of their scholarships has been detrimental to education. This is ' 149 partly the fault of the colleges, partly of the head masters and tutors of schools, who are apt to keep their boys with them as long as they can. They find them naturally more interesting to teach, and more useful in keeping order as prefects, while they are anxious to send them up formed in character, and fit to secure scholarships. This practice has no doubt a good side, but the good in it is not’ sufficient to counterbalance the injury which is done to the university. It cannot be doubted that it has raised the average age of entrance here to rather over than under 19. This has, in the first place, added largely to tlie general cost of education, and I think to the standard of expense amongst the young men themselves. It has also made it more ditficult to combine residence at the university with many important lines of life, such as the civil and military service, and the work of a physician, solicitor, engineer, or man of business. It may be asked “ Why do not the colleges themselves lower their standard of age ? ” But the colleges have no power to coerce each other, and few of them dare to give up to the rest what they consider the chance of securing the best scholars. The .Commissioners alone are masters of the position, and they would confer a boon upon the university generally by fixing uniformly the limit of age for candidates at 18 years, and by regu- latino- the stipends given. 60/. a year would probably be quite sufficient for open scholarships. It mio-ht in fact be practicable to found others of even less value, as open scholarships are often prized as much as distinctions as for their stipends, and are not rarely held by young men who could afford to pay their expenses without them. At the same time there is a meritorious class of men for whom provision should be made by exhibi- tions and allowances of room-rent, commons and tuition fees, without limit of age, and variable in value according to the discretion of the college. I consider that there is no college which could not make good use of an exhibition fund for the sustenance of poor students. Such exhibitions and allowances might often be given to open scholars who could show cause for an addition to their stipends. Another proposal which is well worth considering is that of making a distinction between scholarships to be given at entrance and others for which members of the college would become candidates after a year or two years’ residence — the system in fact at present in use at Trinity College, Cambridge, and which is proposed to be introduced into the Hulme Foundation at our own college. Under the existing system open scholars are not unfrequently idle ; and on the other hand, men who improve during residence do not get always a fair chance of bettering their position. Question G. The question how far i*- may be practicable and desirable to make provision in every college for the elementary instruction of all undergraduates in natural science. Ansiver G. With regard to the teaching of natural science to all undergraduates, I do not think that there is at present room for the introduction of a new pass subject in the three yeai's’ course. Nor can colleges well be expected to make what must be somewhat expensive provision for such instruction until the university requires it in its public examinations. At the same time, I believe that voluntary lectures, especially on new inventions and discoveries, given in a popular form, would be much appreciated by undergraduates (and graduates also), and that a university demonstrator or lecturer for this purpose would be a veiy useful addition to the professoriate. I have, &c. John Wordsworth, M.A., To the University of Oxford Commissioners. Tutor of Brasenose College. Oxford, My Lords and Gentlemen, November 18, 1878. I VENTURE to add a few lines by way of postscript to my letter of July 12th, in order to exhibit more clearly the close connexion which has hithei’to existed between our college and the ministry of the Church of England, and thereby to emphasise the importance of making due pro- vision for religious teaching in conformity with the doctrines of the Church within our walls. It appears from the college books that during the last twelve years 272 members of the college have taken tlieir B.A. degree. In the same period 120 graduates, educated in the college, have been ordained deacons. In other words, four-ninths of our body of undergraduates take holy oi'ders in the Church of England. I have a complete list of their names before me, and I have no hesitation in saying that it represents by far the most important contribution which we make to the welfare of the country, an assertion in which I believe every fellow of the college would join. Is it too much to ask that there should be a fair recognition of this proportion in the proportion of clerical fellowships established in the college ; it being also borne in mind that not very many years ago the whole body of fellows was clerical in the last resort ? Is it not also desirable that members of this large class of men should have some hope held out to them of becoming members of the governing body, and of being called to take part in the teaching of the college ? In the practical consideration of this question of what proportion is a fair one, we must further face the probability that the minimum will tend to become the maximum, as it has certainly done in my own experience. Again, the present minimum of jour clerical fellows is so much reduced by the call to university office and bursarial work and other valid reasons, that there is now only one fellow actually engaged in instructing undergraduates in religious knowledge. It is therefore only reasonable to ask that something more than a bare theoretic sufficiency should be allowed for the Christian work of the college. T 3 150 Lastly, I am bound to say that my experience of the character and attainments of the young- men who come to us leads me to assert with some emphasis and decision — as one who has studied more particularly the wants of our own undergraduates — that they require rather the conscientious supervision of religious men (such as properly elected clerical fellows are likely to be) than the stimulus of brilliant literary or scientific proficients. I have, &c. John Wordsworth, M.A., Tutor of Brasenose College. O FROM NEW COLLEGE. New College, Oxford, Sir, July 30, 1878. I AM I’equested on the p.art of this society to make the following reply to the questions suggested in the communication which the Commissioners were good enough to make to the college by your letter of the 30tli of May last. 1. With regard to the first question, the opinion of the college may be considered perhaps as sufliciently expressed in the G1 and G2 clauses of the proposed statutes, which are now before the Commissioners, and in the additional clause which has lately been submitted for their approval. I am desired, however, to state, that in the judgment of the college any arrangements that may be required to give effect to the provisions of the statutes relating to religious instruction and religious services, should be made from time to time at the discretion of the governing body by regulation or otherwise, and should not be embodied in statutes. 2, 3, 4. The second, third, and fourth questions appear to be fully answered in clauses 2-37 inclusive of the statutes. 5, G. On the points here raised, the college thinks that it Avould be undesirable, or impossible, to make statutes for all the colleges securing uniformity in their scholarships, and that under present circumstances at any rate, it would not be practicable or desirable that provision should be made in every college for the elementary instruction of the undergraduates in natural science. I am, ifcc. T. F. Dallin, Esq. J. E. Sewell. FROM THE REVEREND C. H. HOOLE, M.A., SENIOR STUDENT OF CHRIST CHURCH. 1. With regard to the first question there seems to be little difficulty in arranging for the religious instruction in the colleges, so long as the undergraduate members are of the same denomination It 13 generally deputed to the senior tutor, or a divinity lecturer is appointed who is charged with the work. If, however, the colleges come to be occupied by members of different religious commu- nities difficulties would arise as to the continuing the religious in.struction, though the same difficulties would not extend to the readers, as it may be presumed that the majority would belong to the Establishment. It is doubtful whether it is practically possible to give religious instruction of different forms in the same college, and it would consequently seem that the religious instruction, if it is continued, must be that of the Established Church. 2. A distinction ajipears to exist between the case of the Headships and fellowships ; an increase in the number of lay Heads of colleges would be in many respects an advantage. The Heads of the halls may all be laymen, and several eminent examples of lay heads might be mentioned ; while the Headships of the colleges are nearly all restricted to the clergy. If a division of some kind were made, and a half of a third of the Headships of the colleges were made tenable by laymen, it is doubtful Avh ether any ecclesiastical interest would suffer, and distinction in literature and science might be rewarded Avithout interfering Avith the ordinary arrangements of the colleges. In one of the most ancient and typical of the colleges the Warden may be a layman evidently Avithout detri- ment to the interest of the society. With regard to the clerical fellowships a change was made by the first Commission by which a number of the fellowships were set apart for laymen on the understanding that the remainder should be clerical. It is doubtful Avhether it would be perfectly fair to interfere Avith this arrangement after so short a period for its trial ; and difficulties would arise as to the presentation and filling up of the college livings, the election of the Margaret Professorship of Divinity, of the Bampton lecturer, and the Exegetical professor, if the colleges, so far as the felloAvs are concerned, were alloAved to become purely lay corporatious. Whether it would practically interfere AAdth the religious instruction given in the college is less clear, as a divinity lecturer can be appointed at any time 01 - a fellow elected for his attainments in theology. It is rather with regard to the more general interests of the university that there would be a danger in altering the existing pro- portion. 3. A term of ten years seems to be the best, free from any restriction as to residence ; residence during the year of probation might, however, be exacted Avithout any inconvenience to the candidate elected. For mere purposes of study, considering that they are to be terminable and awarded merely as })rizes, a separation from the governing body of the college would appear to be the best course. The duties of a member of the governing body of a college comprise things not always 151 compatible with the position of a prize fellowship. A certain responsibility of residence and a claim for instruction, or at any rate for the supervision of it, must always attach to a member of the goveiming body of a college ; but it seems wished that the prize fellows should be set free from any acttial work involving residence in the college. To separate the prize, which consists in the income and the distinction of election, from the conduct of the actual working of the college would render the prize fellowships in reality what they profess to be. The question of expense and loss of time incurred in visiting the university to attend the college meetings has also to be considei’ed ; the income of a prize fellow or student being hardly sufficient to meet the expense of fi-equent visits to the university as well as of residence elsewhere. They )night, however, be summoned annually, something like the great chapter of a cathedral. As to the conditions of celibacy , property, or the holding of any office, the latter does not seem likely to arise with regard to the holders of prize fellowships, or would come quite at the end of the tenure : it woukl most probably occui' so seldom as not to amount to a ])ractical consideration. With regard to the property qualification there would be no harm in following the rule adopted with regard to scholarships, when it is assumed that no person really wealthy will become a candidate, but no disqualifying income is fixed. If the same rule were adopted with regard to the condition of celibacy as is used in the case of the open scholarships, that is to say, if the}'' were vacated by marriage, a rule would be adopted which seems to work well with regard to the college scholarships, little complaint having arisen from its enforcement since the last commission. There is no hardship in the holder of a terminable prize being bound by such a condition as that of celibacy if free from those of residence and actual work, and some inconvenience might aidse from a number of married prize fellows being left at the termination of their fellowships with insufficient means and a kind of indirect claim on the college or university for their .support. The tenure of a prize fellowship will not be longer than that of some scholarships under the old system when the marriage of scholars was cheerfully relinquished. d. Dealing with the subject from the point of view of the present day, is it clear that only two objects can be aimed at ; the educational work of the college and the promotion of learning ? At a former 'period some allowance was no doubt made for the social position of the college and the opportunities afforded for leisure, and the exertion of general influence Avas considered a sufficient reason for the maintenance of a number of these appointments not immediately connected Avith the performance of any duty. It is not, however, likely that appointments of this class will be re- tained, the change of habits in society, the amount of actual woi'k expected, and the more numerous openings in the various professions not being connected Avith the maintenance of their position, or at any rate rendering them much less necessary. The felloAvships retained as permanent Avould thus fall into the cla.sses of those elected to manage the educational or practical affairs of the society and those appointed for learned or scientific pursuits. It Avould be much more easy in practice to omit one class than the other, for though a college may be taught by other than the felloAvs, objeetions always arise to the deputing of the whole of the tuition to a body not connected Avith the gOAmrn- ment of the eollege, and in the same way though the felloAvs of a college might be entirely tutors, other interests exist even Avith regard to the educational efficiency of the society, which are sacri- ficed if the whole of the fellows are necessarily engaged in tuition. To fill up the tutor, ships themselves satisfactorily, and to conduct the ordinary Avork of lecturer and referee, some learning is required in the college itself. The filling up of the professorships or Headships Avould require a con.stant application to the learned men outside the university. If the Avhole of the fellows were devoted to tuition, the study of .some subjects certainly, such as the oriental languages, and the more abstract physical sciences, is not consistent Avith, and is always acknowledged to claim exemp- tion from actual practical teaching, at any rate of the elementary parts ; and is it possible practically to acquire sufficient knoAvledge of the oriental languages or of astronomy, while engaged in college tuition ? Again, the literary element which folloAVS from the examination, and is represented in the after career by the University Press, has to be considered. The ancient prestige of the university as a place of learning, and the intention of the founder that the revenues should in part be devoted to actual study, must be considered. Even the exercise of the college patronage Avould be affected by restricting the term of the fellowship to actual tutors. The smaller livings would be often rejected, and the advantages obtained from a variety in the filling up of the patronage, the man of practical ability alternating with the scholar, would be lost. Both these interests, efficient tuition of the college and the maintenance of a learned class being provided for — and it is certainly better in making arrangements with a view to permanence, that both classes should be consulted, and not one left for future compensation^ — thej-e seems little doubt that a permanent tenure is best suited for felloAvships of the latter kind, as the fellowship can be vacated at any time, Avhile the uncertainty of a terminable tenure Avill always fonn an obstacle to continuous employment in any punsuit. For instance, a tenure of ^0 years Avould terminate, most probably, at 55 years of age, a period at Avhich many felloAvs engaged in a learned punsuit might Avish to remain in the college, and Avhen the college would be glad to retain them on account of their seniority and experience. The real difficulty seems to lie in the maintenance of the celibate tests, and the requiring actual re.sidence within the walls of the college. The former is certainly opposed to the condition of modern society ; should it be retained in the exce})tional case of the college ? The prize fellowships being vacated after a limited term of year.s, there seems no reason why the permanent fellowships should not be really permanent, and tenable after marriage ; in that case the permanent fellow.ships Avill be like the fellowshi})s of Trinity College, Dublin, or the canonries of Chidst Church, both Avhich class of appointments have been on the Avhole favourable to the promotion of learning. If it Avere objected that either the succession to the felloAvships would T 4 152 be too mucli retarded, or that a proper number of tutors and college officers could not be obtained from a body thus constituted, the answer would be that there is no difficulty in annexing duties either educational or practical to the appointment of a fellow when first elected ; it has been done in the case of the canons of Christ Church with marked success, the difficulty seems to lie in the paucity of vacancies that might arise, but since the last University Commission there have been numerous vacancies even in so small a body as the Chapter of Christ Church, and in a foundation of from 10 to 20 fellows, almost a yearly vacancy might be reckoned on. There is, howevei', another wav of meeting the difficulty, which is to restrict the abolition of the celibate condition to a certain number, either a half or a third of the fellows, and this is perhaps to be preferred, as it would ensure the residence of a certain number of the foundation within the walls of the college. A number thus always remaining ready for the discharge of such duties as may best be performed by a celibate fellow, and the danger of a collision of opinion on the subject of residence within the actual limits of the college being avoided. 5. With regard to the same college it is better no doubt that the scholarships should be of the same value, as it is more convenient for the working of the educational department of the college, and a difference in value is a})t to cause a kind of social rivalry and claim to superiority on tlie part of some of the scholars over others, certainly to be avoided in a place of education. With regard to the different colleges they are in general left to make their own arrangements, which depends on the wealth of the foundation and the wish of the college to have either a large number of moderately rewarded students, or a small number of those who rely on the scholarships for their maintenance. An approximation to uniformity between the different colleges is however the more convenient cr'urse, and is more generally adopted. The difference between the value of a scholar- ship at Balliol and at Trinity amounted to the difference between 301. and 701. a year; it is believed that they are now almost equal in value. 6. Elementary instruction in physical science might easily be given in the colleges in the same way as mathematical instruction was given under the former system ; a physical science lecturer might be appointed, or in the case of the smaller colleges one lecturer might be charged with the physical science teaching of three or four colleges. In that case lectures would be open to any undergraduate who wished to attend them. To make the acquisition of physical science compul- sory seems open to objection, some of the students, especially those reading for honours, not wishing for an elementary course in a subject of the kind. This was often felt with regard to the mathe- matical teaching under the former system. The controversial element which underlies a portion of those subjects would deter some, while in other branches the value of a merely elementary know- ledge is extremely slight. Thus it seems hsrdly worth while to make teaching compulsory which may be better left to the task of the students. The use of a laboratory and the opportunity of acquiring practical instruction in such subjects as botany and chemistry, if it could be provided without any exti’a expense to the learners, would be a great boon to young men of really scientific tastes, and if it could be provided throughout the university and made open to all who wished to avail themselves of it, would in many cases lay the foundation of future eminence in those pursuits. I am, &c. Charles Holland Hoole, 1\I.A., Senior Student of Christ Church, Oxford. London, July 27, 187^. FROM THE REVEREND H. P. LIDUON D.D., IRELAND, PROFESSOR OF EXEGESIS. Christ Church, Oxford, Sir, July 27, 1878. I VENTURE to submit to the Oxford University Commissioners, a few remarks by way of answer to the printed questions addressed to the members of the governing bodies of colleges in the circular No. 10, dated May 1878. Question 1. The (piestion of the best mode of making proper and effectual provision for religious instruction and religious services in the different colleges. Answer. Tlie best mode, in my opinion, of providing adequately for religious instruction and religious services in the different colleges, is to maintain, in each college, a number of clerical fellows, sufficient for these purposes, and to assign to these fellows specific duties, and, with this object in view, there should be at least four fellows in holy orders in every college in Oxford ; while, in the larger colleges, six or more would be required. It would, I think, be admitted by persons Avho are acquainted with the present state of Oxford that the existing provisions for religious instruction are, in the case of several colleges, very in- sufficient. Certainly they contrast disadvantageously with those which existed 25 years ago. At that date every undergraduate attended divinity lectures during the whole or the greater part of his residence at the university ; and, whatever might be the shortcomings of individual lecturers, the general effect of the system was to diffuse a great deal of definite religious knowledge among the young men. In some cases, which might be named, these college lectures were very carefully prepared, and were of lasting value to those who attended them ; they commonly embraced the Old and New Testaments, the evidences of Christianity, and the Articles or other formularies of the Church of England. Partly through the admission of undergraduates Avho are not members of the Church of England, partly through the pressure of new subjects of study, and an altered tone of feeling towards Christian theology, but, chiefly, as a consequence of the diminished numbers of clerical fellowships, this system of general religious instruction has been large!}" modified ; in some cases it has been abandoned. Accordingly an undergraduate may now pass through Oxford without any i-eligious instruction, except perhajis such as may be obtained from a private tutor on the eve of a pass examination ; instruction, which, too often, from the nature of the case, and without implying incompetence or irreverence on tlie tutor’s part, is likely to do his pupil more liarm than good. A large majority of the undergraduates in every college are still members of tlie English Church, and nearly one fourth of the whole body are preparing to be her ministers. The recent legislation which has admitted Protestant Nonconformists, Roman Catholics, and others, to study and to teacli within the walls of our colleges, was not intended to relieve the colleges of their previously existing obligation to instruct members of the Church in holy scripture, and in Christian doctrine. On the contrary, the Oxford University Test Act distinctly contemplates such instruction as entering into the permanent duties of the colleges. Can this instruction be adequately and permanently secured, without maintaining a sufficient staff of clerical fellows? Undoubtedly, from time to time, some laymen may do, or rather have done excellent service as 'religious teachers. It may well happen that a layman can occasionally command attention in quarters where a clergyman encounters in- superable prejudice ; and, where thoughtfulness and learning, because allied to holy orders, are con- demned to plead in vain. But this is the exception ; it is not the rule, at any rate, among young men. It is still generally felt that religious instruction is the proper work of the clergy ; and that under ordinary circumstances, a layman goes somewhat out of his way in undertaking it. An average layman would probably lecture on divinity without the aid of those powerful motives to zeal and exactness which are supplied by the memories of ordination, and certainly without the spiritual assistance which ordination conveys. As compared with a clergyman, he would be likely to think less of the practical and spiritual than of the merely literary and philosophical aspects of his subjects ; and he would be more open to the fascinations of theological eccentricity, in whatever direction. In short the clergy are the natural teachers of religion ; it is their basine.ss and their happiness to teach it, whether as a subject for intellectual analysis, or as a rule of life; and unless it is to cease to form a part of the studies of educated young Englishmen, common sense would point to the duty of maintaining in the several colleges of Oxford an adequate supply of clerical instructors. The Commissioners will probably have observed that while the number of lectures in divinity given in the colleges of Oxford has been within the last 25 years greatly reduced, a demand for more lectures, and those of a higher order, has been created by the establishment of the Theological Honour School. If that School has not yet fulfilled the expectations which were formed of it, this re.sult is partly to be explained by the fact that in many colleges an undergraduate receives no tutorial assistance whatever in prejiaring for his examination in theology. It is not unnatural that the authorities of such colleges should dissuade undergraduates from reading a subject in which they themselves can furnish no assistance, and in which, from its very extent and intricacy, an unassisted undergraduate is likely to lose his way and his cla.ss. If it should be urged that the professors of divinity might be expected to provide ail the instruction which is necessary to enable a man to jsrepare for the theological school, I must respectfully dissent from that opinion. The professorial lectures are largely attended by undergraduates who are reading for the school ; but they are also attended by graduates, and not unfrequently by Masters of Arts. It is not impossible that since 1870 theology has suffered somewhat in Oxford from a too exclusive attention to the recjuirements of .students in the theological school on the part of some of the professors. In their hands the sub- ject deserves an independent, and so to term it, disinterested treatment, which should make it attractive to older minds and to as large a circle as possible. But in the intere.sts of the university, as well as of the Church and the country, it is greatly to be wished that in every college of Oxford the higher aspects of such subjects as biblical scholarship and Christian evidences could be repre- sented by accomplished clergymen well able and willing to encourage and guide the theological studies of any undergraduate who might give early promise of inclination and fitness for pursuing them. So far as I am informed, while modern history, mathematic.s, physical science and law are more or less represented in different foundations, a theological fellowship, by which I mean a fellow- ship given to a clergyman Avho has passed the best examination in theology, is (with the honourable exception of a single college), as yet unknown. It would seem desirable to establish a certain number of such fellowships, partly as encouragements to theological study, but chiefly in order to .secure to the colleges men capable of assisting theological students. It need hardly be added that the necessities of religious -worship point even more distinctly than those of religious instruction to the maintenance of a certain number of clerical fellows in every college. It is of course abstractedly pos.sible that a college might consist entirely of laymen, who kept a chaplain unconnected with the foundation, for the purpose c»f reading divine service in their chapel. Whatever else might be said about .such an arrangement, it would not promote the interests of religion. If l eligion is to be respected by young men, it must be associated -with learning on the one hand, and with authority on the other; in other words the college chaplain should be a fellow whose position and attainments command respect. It has to be remembered that in our present circumstances a majority of the fellow.s of a small college may, within the next few years, be conscientious dissenters from the doctrines and liturgy of the Church of England, or even from Christianity. Unless the college chapel shall have been placed under the control of a certain number of clerical fellow.s, it may be anticipated that its services will be allowed quietly to drop, atid tiiat it will be closed; or that at best, in these days of ‘'.shortened .services,” they w'ill gradually a.ssnme a character alien from that of the worsliip of the Church of England, as jmescribed in the Book of Q 022.3. ■ I’ 154 Common Prayer. Tliese dangers will be obviated if in oveiy college a bodj^ of clergymen is entrusted with the conduct of divine service, especially if each clerical fellow takes his turn in celebrating the Holy Communion, in preaching, and in saying the daily service. It is desirable that the clerical fellows of each college should regard it as a field of pastoral labour ; their recurring duties would remind them of the character and obligations of their sacred profession, and would correct the tendency to those secularised habits of life on the part of clerical residents at the university which have not unfrequently provoked complaint at the hands of attached members of the Church. Question 2. The question whether the (pialification of lioly orders should continue to be necessaiy for fellowships or headships of colleges not specially connected with the duty of giving religious instruction, or conducting religious services ? Ansioer. I should hope that the qualification of holy orders will be retained in the case of all Headships of colleges for which it has hitherto been required, except, perhaps, in that of All Souls College. Such a qualification is a guarantee, so far as it goes, for the character of a college, as a “ place of religion ” ; it invites confidence which would not be accorded to a lay head of a house. So far as Christ Church is concerned the question is hardly an open one ; the head of Christ Church will be the dean of a cathedral chm-ch as long as Christ Church retains its historical character of a collegiate body grouped around a cathedral chapter. It is also desirable, in my opinion, that the present proportion of clerical fellowships should be retained, generally speaking, in the several colleges, excepting those in Avhich an increase of clerical fellows is necessary for the purposes of religious worship and instruction. It is a narrow view of this question which can see in a resident clergyman only a possible chaplain or divinity lecturer. A clerical fellow may be for many years, or throughout his life, only a student whose studies are guided by his ordination vows ; but such a life of strxdy may also be of the greatest advantage to learning as well as to religion. The ever-increasing demands upon the time and energies of the pai’ochial clergy, which happily characterise our age, render it peculiarly neces- sary that some ministers of religion should maintain its relations with learning by the diligent use of those opportunities which a university alone supplies. If I were asked to point to a recent illustration of this aspect of clerical fellowships, I would name the late Regius Professor 0 / Divinity, Dr. Mozley, in whom, within the last few years, our generation lias recognised a religious thinker and teacher not unworthy to rank with Butler. Dr. Mozley spent the best years of his life as a resident fellow of Magdalen College ; he was, I believe, entrusted with no tutorial duties ; and there was a time when a supeilicial estimate of the results of his life might have pronounced it unfruitful, although he was, in reality, continuously engaged in severe study. Whether they become authors or not, the presence of such men as Dr. Mozley enriches the intellectual as well as the religious atmosphere of the university ; and it is more than ever - desirable in days when intellect is largely alienated from religion, and when religion can afford to neglect no means at her disposal for assert- ing her claims upon the minds of men. But this is not the only reason for retaining the existing proportion of clerical fellowships. Before the University Tests Bill became law, a lay fellowship implied membership of the Church of England, and the number of clerical fellowships might have been reduced without necessarily abandoning safeguards for the religious character of a college. The effect of the Tests Act has been to admit to the position of teachers in our colleges persons vdio conscientiously reject the fundamental ti’uths of Christianity, or even the existence of God, and belief in a future state. This result of the Act was not unforeseen, and I do not refer to it by Avay of reanimating controversies about .a question which is practically closed. But it has undoubtedly invested the maintenance of clerical felli.)wships with a new religious importance ; clerical fellowships represent in the university not merely the ministerial agency of the church, but its ascertained number of adherents among the i-esident teachers. To reimpose any tests of religious belief upon lay tutors or professors is, I apprehend, impossible ; and, accordingly, to reduce the number of clerical fellows is to diminish existing guai-antees for the maintenance of Christianity in the exact ratio of such reduction. It is indeed sometimes aigued that an enlightened view of the true interests of religion would pj-escribe the abolition of all clerical fellowship.s, on the ground that the Church would have her share among the successful candidates for open fellowships ; and that she would gain influence, when her ministers no longer enjoyed an invidiously protected position among teachers in the university. But it is, in some colleges, doubtful Avhether a clergyman, however accomplished, would be elected to a fellowship under a strictly open sytem. The opinion may be entertained that a man who takes orders in a church with a definite creed, thereby furnishes such decisive proof of intellectual inferiority as to make it unnecessary to examine him. This doubtless is an extreme form of preju- dice ; but no one who knows Oxford will deny the existence of strong prejudice against clerical candidatures. And such prejudice is a fact, the existence of which cannot be lost sight of, at a time when, amidst profuse compliments on its indestructible vitality, the church is asked to sun'ender what yet remains of those provisions by which, in past ages, the Christian faith has been guarded and promoted in our seats of learning. Here it may be observed that it will be difficult to justify the I’etention of their church patronage by the colleges if the colleges are to become entirely or almost entirely “lay corporations, that is to say, corporations largely consisting of persons who conscientiously reject the faith and discipline of the church. When the municipal corporations were thrown open to Nonconformists, those bodies had to sell their church patronage, in some cases, at very considerable loss. It will be widely felt to be undesirable that the university and colleges should break with any of the remaining links that bind them to the Church of England ; but on the other hand the rights and the natm'al feelings of parishioners have to be considered. The spiritual interests of our parishes would never have been placed in the guardianship of a college, if it could have been foreseen that a day would come when 155 a majority of its momber.s might dissent from tlic clmrcli’s faith. Tliis difficulty would he met if a sufficient number of clerical fellows can he retained, and tlie administration of advowsons and rectorial property made part of their duty. In every college the clerical inemhers of the foundation should constitute a permanent committee of advowsons, having power to associate with thejnselves such other members of the foundation as the requirements of business or the interests of the church miffirt from time to time suggest. The general considerations which may he pleaded in favour of retaining the existing proportion of clei’ical fellows apply, with especial force, to the case of Christ Church. Speaking historically, Christ Church is a peculiarly clerical foundation. It is a collegiate body grouped around a cathedral chapter. With one exception all the ])rofessors of divinity are members of the foundation, as a matter of course. During the first three centuries of its existence, its 100 (or later 101) students were, with four exceptions, obliged to take holy orders, as a condition of retaining their studentship, s, and when, a quarter of a century since, two oiit of its eight canonries were suppressed, they were suppressed on the understanding that the revenues belonging to them should he applied to the jiiaintenance of clerical students on the new foundation. Looking at the matter practically, and with a view t,o the future, it would seem that the retention of a large proportion of clerical students is of serious importance to the well-woi’king of Christ Churcli. Christ Cliurch is not of yesterday ; nor has it before it the task of acliieving a position. It has been for generations the nurse of statesmen and divines ; it has traditional connexions Avith families to which England OAves her greatness, and in every part of the country. The usefulness of such an institution depends largely on its continuing' to inspire confidence in the classes Avhich it educates and on Avhose attachment it depends ; and such confidence would be rudely shaken, if not forfeited, by any serious disturbance of tlie existing pro- portion of the clerical and lay elements in the foundation. Confidence is sensitive; and the conditions under which it can be conciliated or retained have perhaps of late been unduly lost sight of, by the jiromoters of changes in Oxfnd. A consideration of the composite character of the foundation of Christ Church points to the same conclusion. A majority of JSTonconformists or of free thinkin'r students would hardly Avork harmoniously Avith a Dean and ChajAer AA’ithin the Avails of a great educa- tional institution. Unless then the Dean and .Cl^apf er are to be dispensed with, in other words, unless the Christ Church of our past history is to cease to be, the students, or a majority of them, must be able and anxious to co-operate with this central, and permanently church element in the foundation. Even if it should be deemed advisable to reduce the proportion of clerical members in some other colleges, Christ Church, I cannot but think, has strong reasons to desire that the present ])foportion of clerical students should be fully retained, both in the interests of its internal liarmony, and in order to enable it, under new conditions, to perpetuate the traditions of its splendid history. Question 3. The question of the terms as to duration and otherwise, on which prize fellowships in any college should be held. Answer. Assuming it to be decided, that in vicAV of the general interests of the university, it i.s, upon the Avhole, desirable to create a certain number of prize fellowships in every college, I think that they should be held on such conditions as the folloAving. They should be tenable for not less than five or more than seven years, reckoning from the date of election. Each such felloAvship Avould be sufficiently endowed Avith 150^. a year. A prize fellow should be entitled to rooms incolleo'e and to dine in the college hall frpe of expense, if he should reside ; but he should be at liberty to marry and to live Avherever he might wish to live, without forfeiting his felloAvship. He should not be a member of the governing body of his college. Already the governing bodies of the larger colleo-es are more numerous than is at all desirable ; an unwieldy governing body, composed largely of \evy junior men, is not well adapted to take charge of the interests of a great institution. The opinion that life-felloAvs should not be admitted to vote in the governing body of their college until after the lapse of five years from the date of their election is not at all uncommon ; and it would follow fl'om this opinion that a prize felloAv would not acquire the experience, or have a sufficient stake in the future of his college, to be entitled to vote at all. His felloAvship, in short, is a decoration, rather than a responsibility, or at any rate rather than an office which invests him with specific responsibility for the efficiency of his college. Should it be maintained that prize felloAvs Avould introduce and advocate “ new ideas ” in the administration of colleges ; it may be replied that, according to present appearances, the colleges are in no danger whatever of stagnating from Avant of “ new ideas ” and that there is consequently no necessity for providing any additional means of introducino- them. On the contrary, if extensive experiments in the higher education are to be made by youno- men who may have had at command only an imperfect experience of its real conditions, they had better be made, I will not say, in corpore vili, but at any rate, in institutions less precious and venerable than are the colleges of our National universities. Question 4. The condition of tenure of such fellowships, other than prize fellowships, as it maybe desirable to retain in collea'es. Ansiver. If the system of prize fellowships is adopted, other fellowships should be tenable for life but on condition of celibacy (Avith cei'tain exceptions to be noticed presently), and, as I think of residence in Oxford Avith a view either to educational work, or study. A life fellowship should also be subject to forfeiture in case of a man accepting civil or ecclesiastical preferment of a certain value say, 600Z. a year, or a pension from his college, or of his succeeding to an estate with an income of 6001. a year. The value of a fellowship, in the eyes of the great majority of men, resides, notin the amount of its endowment, but in its being tenalrle for life. Make it terminable, even at the expiration of 30 years and you deprive it of the charm which is inseparable from the possession of a life-long share, hoAvever humble, in an ancient foundation. The destruction of lifmfellowships would, I fera- be fatal to what U 2 15G remains of collegiate esprit cle corps ; and this important element of corporate life has been lament- ably weakened already, by causes which need not be discussed here. Nor is there reason to fear that fellowships, tenable lor life, would be held for long terms of years in any such large numbers as to obstruct the necessary succession of younger men, especially if residence at Oxford be made a condition of holding a fellowship for life. Our most recent experience points to a very different result. I cannot concur in the opinion that a life fellowship should only be held by a man who had been actually engaged in education for a certain number of years. Some of these fellowships might usefully be held by mere students, who have no real capacity for lecturing, but who might, with great advantage, pursue their studies in tlie midst of practical education. The jmesence of serious students in the midst of a society of men who are engaged in the practical work of education, lias a stimulating and corrective value, which none who have had an opportunity of estimating it Avill be slow to acknowledge. As to the vexed (juestion of the marriage of fellows, it is obvious that if all life-fellows are to have leave to marry as a matter of course, the result will be academical congestion ; it will amount to nothing short of the destruction of the collegiate system. The colleges will be appropriated to domestic purposes ; each staircase will become a family residence. The difficulty of maintaining discipline among undergraduates will be increased under such a state of things ; a married censor of Christ Church would lind himself in embarrassments which need not be specified, but which will readily occur to those who know what he has to do. But that the condition of celibacy might in certain cases be relaxed with advantage is beyond question. At Christ Church the Lees readers are in point ; and the principle might be extended to other teachers of specified subjects, such as histoiy or law, and perhaps to any teacher who had served the house, with confe.ssed advantage for 10 (or 15) years, ami who desired to make education the work of his life. But such relaxations, if possible, slionld not depend upon the good nature or the caprice of a governing body. They should be regulated by statute, and such statute should provide a sufficient number of checks and vetos to obviate the suspicion, I will not say the risk, of jobbeiy. The remaining conditions which should in my opinion attach to the tenure of life fellowshi))s, will speak for theinselve.s. Such felloAVships arc not intended for the very wealthy ; or for those who cannot, by residing in Oxford, make use of the advantages which they ofier. Question 5. The question how fiir it is desirable to aim at uniformity in tlie value and condition of tenure of scholarships, on the foundation of the difierent colleges. Ansxcer. Of late the opinion has gained ground in Oxford, among men of all pai-ties, that it is desirable to make the value and conditions of tenure of all college scholarships as nearly uniform as possible, 'l.'f.e jiresent system A\'orks badly in two ways ; it injuriously afiects both the usefulness of the university among the middle classes, and the habits of the undergraduates. The late age of matriculation at present, as compared with the practice of 25 years ago, deters many ])rofessional men from giving their sons the advantage of an university education ; they cannot afibrd so seriou.'; an inroad on the opening years of professional life. But while scholarships may be competed for by young men of 10 years of age, it is in vain to hope for any considerable improvement in this respect : the scholars set the fashion, and other young men will not generally consent to com])ete wiih then* subsecjnently at a disadvantage, by coming u]> to the university at an earlier age. And the jiresent exccs.sive value of some scholarships is a positive injury to some of the young men who gain them; it leads them to form early habits of extravagance, and thus to popularise expensive t.istes among other undergraduates with more money and less wit than themselves. If the money which is now' spent by colleges in the effort to outbid each other while endeavouring to attract clever and accomplished school boys, could be devoted to the creation of exhibitions, intended to assist promising young men whose parents have been unable to pay for good tutors, a very useful reform would be eftected. There will always be differences between colleges in respect of the ]jopularity they may enjoy among the boys and masters at our public schools ; but it is not desir- able that these difterences should be effected by the money-value of scholarships. If, howev'er, anything is to be done, it must be done by the Commissioners ; no college will reduce the value of its scholarships and lowmrthe age of competition, Avith the chance of finding itself outbidden, a year or tAvo hence, by a dozen rivals. I Avould venture to express a hope that the Commissioners will allow no college scholarshi]j to be competed for after the age of IS, or to be held for more than five years, or to be of a higher annual value than 501. Question G. Tlie question how far it may be practicable or desirable to make provi- sion in every college for the elementary instruction of all undergraduates in Natural Science. Anszver. That such a provision is desirable, I have no doubt whatever. Every man would be the better for some acquaintance Avith the very important branches of knowledge Avhich are com- prised in Natural Science. Speaking as a clergyman, I have often felt the serious disadvantages of Ignorance about them, and have Avished that I had been obliged to study them as a young man. There Avould be no difficulty in making provision for college lectures in natural science, or in com- pelling the attendance of all undergraduates ; but such attendance would hardly be fruitful, unless the subject Avas recognised in the pass schools. I am not prepared at this moment to say how a neAv ])ass subject could be introduced into our three years’ couise ; although I should not despair of the results of a discussion on this head. Much AA'ould depend on the interest Avhich college lecturers could contiiA'e to ghm to their treatment of the subject ; and there are not Avanting men among our residents Avho might be expected to make their lectures very interesting indeed. I have, &c. H. P. Liddon. The Secretary to the Oxford Uxriversity Commissioners. FROM THK REV. G. W. KITCHIN, M.A. To the Univei’sity of Oxford Commis.sioner.s. My Lords axd Gentlemkn, _ Oxford, July 23, 1878. The following seem to me to be some of “the general principles on which the cpiestions pro- “ pounded ouglit to be dealt with, in the interests of the university as a place of religion, learning, “ and education and I venture to hope that by a brief statement of them at the outset I may bo able to shorten the length of my answers in detail. 1. As far as possible^ there should be uniformity of treatment in the case of the different colleges. Thus, though it might be urged tiiat my own college, Christ Churcli, requires le.ss provision for relio-ious sijpervision than any other college, in consequence of the existence within her walls of a con^)lete staff of clergy, the Dean, Canons and Chaplains, still it would be undesirable to render Christ Church more of a lay-college than others, or to treat her on lines differing from those followed elsewhere. It would be most unfortunate, were such exceptions made in her case as might either tend to alienate the college from the chapter, or place Christ Church at a disadvantage side by side with her neighbours. 2. Young men ought as little as pos.sible to be swayed by indirect motives in the dii*ection of holy orders. 3. Nothing should be done to lessen the respect felt for the clerical office in Oxford. 4. It would therefore not be well to sever the religious teaching and services from the general education of the colleges. 5 . The religious teaching and services should be, as now, in general accordance with the j)rinciples and usages of the Church of England, with such practical “ couscience-clause ” as is at present in general use. (). Enforced celibacy is an evil in itself, and carries great evils in its train. 7. College funds should be used rather for purposes of education than as prizes for those whose education is ended: accordingly “prize fellowships” should be of limited number, tenure, and value. 8. Except in rare and specified cases, all other fellowships shoidd depend (in matter of tenure, value, &c.) cn work done for the university or the college to Avhich they belong. 0. There are too many scholarship examinations : if colleges continue to bid against one another by increased value of scholarships, in the end the wealthier must extinguish the poorer. The tendency to lengthen the school jmars by sending boys up at a more mature age ought to bo checked. 10. As far as po.ssible, scholarships should bring honour rather than profit ; provided, also, that steps be taken to enable poor men to get their college education cheaply ; and that the tendency to favour tlui wealthiest student, which has unintentionally resulted from past legislation, be as far as possible counteracted. 1 1. No special protection ought to be granted to any branch of education, whether language, natural science, or other, except in so far as the university may deem such sidiject to be an essential ])art of a sound general education, and necessary as a basis to more adyanceil and independent study. As the first, second, and fourth questions asked, deal in fact with the conditions under which the teachiu'T' staff in colleges has to be recruited and retained, I A^enture to cull attention to what seems to me to be an important factor in the problem, namely, the grovviiig competition to Avhich we are exposed. It is clear that education tends more and more to become an independent profession, it grow.s less clerical in all its branches, it no longer cares to select the college tutor to fill its chief posts. Head- masters are now chiefly chosen from among the leading masters of great schools, and young men go straight to cchool-work after taking their degrees. This affects us in two ways. It diminishes tlie prizes attainable by a successful college tutor, and it tempts away those vigorous young men, Avhom we should most like to keep; consequently, at both ends the public schools add to our diffi- culties. This has been felt for some time past, and is a difficulty of increasing importance. We must regard oiu’selves as going into the open labour market, and must see in Avhat Avay the Avage we can offer is insufficient, or the condition under Avhich it is offered render it unacceptable to young men. The more sentimental conditions, such as affection for the place, the pleasure of living in a literary centre, the hope of influencing young men at their best, strongly as they may be felt by older persons, are often almost powerless on those who, after a successful undergraduate career ai’C forming a judgment as to the line of life v/-hich they might best follow. The other conditions are, I fear, very adverse to us. In the first place, a layman who thinks of taking Avork here, feels that he is thereby almost sure to cut himself off' from other careers. In a Amry few years he is too old to get an undermastership at a public school, or to proceed to the bar, and, if in orders, he at any time is losing chances of doing the propei- work and obtaining the pre- ferments, such as they are, of his profession. On the other side, and in direct contrast with these considerations, he sees that Oxford tutor Avork is of an essential transitory character. He ^.cannot believe that he is settling down for life if he accepts college work ; he thinks there is “ no career ” before him, he has little or no prospect of establishing himself, as a man clearly ought to have who is dedicating himself to a life of hard U 3 158 labour ; he has no prospect of an income sufficient to keep him in comfort and to enable him to make provision for the future. Next. If he has private means, or can see his way to a fair income, he is at once met by an un- reasonable celibacy-restriction, which in fact says to the ablest men, “ If you wish to lead that “ healthy life which is as much your right in the calling of a teacher as at the bar or in the parisli, “ .shun Oxford, and go at once to a public school. People there do not think that marriage unfits a “ man for his duties.” Thirdly. Schools lay down no compulsory rules (in a general way) as to orders ; some masters are certain to be clergymen, others prefer tlie lay-estate. In the present day, when so [many able men, with keener conseientiousnes.s, are reluctant to take orders, this consideration is of no little weight. Lastly. A schoolmaster’s income allows him to make provision for old age ; and Oxford incomes do not. Formerly a tutor looked forward to a living as his natural goal. According to Person’s dictum as be looked out of his windoAv at Trinity : “ A tutor’s life is a dusty and monotonous “ avenue, Avith a distant church steeple at the further end.” Now tutors in orders^are unwillin'r to take college preferment, and [for lay-tutors this form of pension is not available. There are, no doubt, headships and professorships, and in a feAV cases colonial or other appointments within reach: these, hoAvever, can only fall to the share of very few ; and after the tutor has passed his fortieth birthday, Avhat other work is open to him ? These seem to me to be the chief disadvantages under which we labour. To the questions laid before us by the Commissioners I beg leave to reply as follows : 1. If, as I believe, it is desirable to retain a very close connexion between the rebgious instruc- tion and services and the general education of a college, so that the family relationship, as it may be called, may continue, and undergraduates may feel the existence and benefit of that relationship, it Avill be requisite that each college should retain some clerical element on its teaching staff. Thouo-h chapel services, Avhich are in fact a form of family prayers, might Avithout objection be read by a lay-head or tutor, and though many a layman is very fit to be a teacher in theology, still it is obvious that in many points it Avould be impossible to trust entirely to lay agency ; it Avould be equally bad, from the general aspect of the subject, to hand OA^er either the religious teachino- or the college services to paid officials, little if at all connected Avith the college; the objection often felt as to a paid choir Avould be specialised and emphasised were undergraduates to come to think that all things specially belonging to Christian faith and Avorship Avere thought to be beneath the notice and personal participation of the governing body of their college. I am therefore of opinion that on the teaching-staff of a college there should be two fellows, in orders, to one or both of whom should be entrusted the religious teaching and college services. Such felloAvs might be elected after competition (as now is done) ; or bA^ co-optation, under due res- trictions, if this could be done Avithout opening the way to the struggles of the official partizanship or there might be some among the existing fellows Avilling to bake orders, and undertake those duties. In this latter Avay all difficulties as to special election to clerical fellowships, a thing which at present works very badly at O.xford, would be got over. People, indeed, seem to think that if there are no celibate restrictions, every fellow would at once marry, and if no clerical, any fellow would neces- sarily remain a lajnnan. I have neither so exalted an idea of the married state nor so desponding a Anew of the prospects of the clergy, as to think that we should find in any college a governing l^ody of which the members were all married and all laymen. Moreover, a fellow Avho took orders with- out collegiate obligation, would do so from high motives, and would probably be sj)ecially well fitted to superintend the religious teaching and services of his college. 2. It is desirable, as far as possible, to abolish the distinction, at election of fellows, between clerical and lay fellowships. The Avell-known result of the existing distinction is to place the clergy in Oxford at a serious disadA’antage in the esteem of the members of their college, and thereby to add to the reasons Avhich deter abler men from taking orders. It is surely an evil for the church that the clerical fellows as such should be regarded as distinctly inferior to the lay fellows ; and that there should exist, as there does, a great divergence between the security of the competition in the case of the two classes. I think that the qualification of holy orders as a necessary condition of the tenure of headsh ips or fellowships, should be abolished ; and I feel sure that this change would strengthen rather than weaken the hold of religion on the college life. I should be sorry were none of the tutors of a college in orders, and should desire to see some such subsidiary arrangement as I have hinted at above ; yet I should deem even an entirely lay body of felloAvs better than a system of enforced ordination, coupled with that irritation and, in some cases, contempt, Avhich noA”’ prevails in Oxford towards clerical fellows. 3. Prize fellowships should be of short tenure ; I think seven years Avould be fully sufficient ; their value might well be put at 200k a year. They should be the same, in value and tenure, at all colleges. Regard being had to the number of young men who distinguish themselves, year by year, I am inclined to think that about a dozen such prizes offered yearly, Avould absorb almost all the best men. This (with a seven years tenure and a stipend of 200k each) would create eighty-four such prizes in the university at an annual cost of 16,800k It would be desirable were such prize fellowships encouraged to take part in college-Avork as lecturers, so as to learn the way to the education staff open for them. It seems quite unnecessary in case of young men, whose age can rarely if ever exceed thirty years to say anything as to celibacy or orders. A man who holds a prize must be left to do as he Avill ; in these respects, as well in respect of residence in Oxford, career in life, etc. 159 4 Tho ibllows, who make up (witli rare exceptions) tlie education staff, should be permanent ; subject of course to due conditions as to moral life, as to doing their work properly, etc. The number of them must depend on the needs of each college ; the partition of the work to be done must be left to the college ; a certain proportion of them ought to reside in college and fulfil tutorial functions. These things are matters of separate and not difficult arrangement. There should be no I’esti'iction to celibacy. Strict watch should be kept against inefficiency, and means found whereby colleges may be relieved of incapable, troublesome, or even mischievous fellows. A cau- tiously arranged pension system must be devised, care being taken neither to tempt the worse tutor to hang on, nor the better to go off too soon. 5. Uniformity of tenure and value in scholarships is much to be desired ; any steps which could enable colleges to combine for scholarship examinations would be good. I am in favour of making- all scholarships of small value at first, and of giving colleges power to enlarge or extend them after- wards, so as to stimulate industry. The scheme of scholarships suggested by Christ Church seems to me to be on the right lines. C. I am not in favour of a system of enforced pass teaching in natural sciences. To compel all undergraduates to such a course would be to go against aU the modern and wholesome legislation of the university, and to make protection on behalf of the crude cramming which would represent the average man’s prepai-ation for a pass in natural science. It would come in a wrong part of a student’s career. The rudiments of some natural science may well find a place in school work ; it can hardly be otherwise than an evil if enforced on a univei’sity. I have, &c. G. W. Kitchin, History Lecturer at Chri.st Churcb, Oriel, Lincoln, and Queen’s ; formerly Student and Censor of Christ Churcb. FROM CHARLES NEATE, M.A., FELLOW OF ORIEL COLLEGE. Clerical Restrictions, No. 1. I think the best way of securing to the Church of England its greatly diminished share in the endowments of this (Oriel) or any other college is by restricting to clergymen a certain number of fellowships to be given without examination to persons already in orders, who should have obtained a second class at least in moderations, and a first class in the theological school, a ])vivilege which would greatly add to the importance and usefulness of that school. I see no reason for diminishing the number of such fellowships at Oriel, which is now five ; at any rate below the point at which the same proportion to the whole number of fellowships would be maintained. Whether the number of fellowships to be retained should bo four or five, I would have two of them obliged to residence, and responsible between them for the chapel service, but without the title of chaplain and without any salary as such. The religious teaching of the college would of course be in the hands of a clerical fellow, and it would also be desirable that the same person should have his share as tutor in the general educa- tion of the college. Fifty years ago a layman as a tutor was a very rare excej^tion. I only remember one, and that was at Merton. The effect of recent legislation has been very greatly to increase the lay element, and the change that has taken place in the academical position and intellectual status of the clergy in Oxford is one of which it is difficult to overstate the impoi-tance. The difficulties of the situation can only be overcome, or at least can best be softened and tempered, by a learned and therefore a tolerant clergy, and the mode which I have suggested for the selection of clerical fellows is I think best calculated to answer that, end. It is with the same jnirpose of preserving a friendly co-operation between clergy and laity in Oxford that I would do away with the re.striction whei’ever it exists, as it does at Old el, which excludes laymen from the headship of a college. Where, as in the case with us, the majority of the fellows are laymen, and this is likely to be the case generally, they will never cheerfully acquiesce in the rule of a chief necessarily representing only a minority, though I think that regard for the interest of the college and deference for the opinion of the public, will still ensure something of a preference fora clerical candidate in the selection of a head. In another way the clerical privilege as to headship would produce a bad effect. It would aggra- vate one of the worstof the many ill consequences of recent changes — the opposition of the junior part of the collegiate body to the legitimate authority of its head. Tenure of Fellovjsliips. Questions .3 and 4. Before giving any answer in the way of practical suggestion to these ques- tions, I would ask permission to state shortly the grounds upon which that answer will be founded. Charity, or the wide sense in which it is now used as a legal term, includes, besides the elee- mosynary purposes to which it was originally confined, (and which still give the proper legal .denomination to college endowments), all purposes of public utility, more especially^ those for which adequate provision cannot so well be made, by taxation, and if any selection is to be made, those public purposes are to be preferred to others of equal or greater importance which the least admit of public provision. U 4 160 The purposes to which college endowments are properly applicable, and to which they have been hitherto applied, are partly academical, partly non-academical. The first are, the teaching of youth, the management of colleges, and the supply of a resident body to support the character of the university by adding to its stores of learning, and also to perform its corpoi'ate duties, both those which are exclusively its own, and those of a (juasi municipal character, which belong to it in conjunction witli the city. To these i would add the duty of jn-oviding a high class of masters for the endowed schools of the country, whose Avork is academical in its character though not in its place of performance, and whose office as teachers and governors of youth is of more importance eA’en than that of college tutors. The non-acadeinical purposes of endowment, so far as they ai-e not eleemosynary, that is, intended for the benefit of the reci]uent, are to supply for the three learned professsions of clergy, law, and physic, and more especially of the two latter a higher, that is, a l)etter and more useful class of practitioners than the unassisted law of supply and demand, and the unenlightened selection of the public would })roduce. I omit the clerical fellow.®, ]n’Ovision being made for them Avhen they assume their purely clerical character, not out of the college fund, but by the exercise of its patronage. Speaking then only of fellow'ships connected with the study and practice of law and medicine, it may be questioned whether they do not; even more than academical fcllowvships, fulfil the proper purposes of endoAvment, for the benefit of the Avork done by piofessors, tutors, and college officers is to a great extent shared by those, AAdio have no claim to assistance on eleemosynary grounds, that is, by students of competent or far more than competent means, and though the IState deriv’es some benefit from endoAvments so used, in the higher sort of education, Avhich the richer and govern- ing classes are in this Avay enabled and encouraged to obtain, the 8tafe might easily secure that benefit Avithout encroaching uj)on the eleemosynary fund, by making an univei’sity degree, as it is in other countries, the condition of all public employment of the higher sort, under Avhich description I Avould include a seat in either House of Parliament, and all judicial offices, including that of justice of the peace, A\dth some very limited exceptions fur the benefit of professional and mercantile men. I have said nothing on prize fellowships, because I think the term is objectionable as implying that a man may derive his subsistence from endowments, that is, from ])ublic money, Avithout per- forming any Avork in return for it; but I think it Avould be right to add fo the non-academical pro- fessional fellowships — another class of felloAvships for the promotion of literature and science. I noAV come to the tenure of fellowships, first in respect of duration, which ought I think to A'ary according to the class to Avhich they belong. The fir.st class, that is, the academical felloAvships, should be I think for life as they are now^, for academical work, though not in my opinion insufficiently reAvarded (or at least not likely to be sf> under the neAV arrangements noAv in contemplation), does not lead to great Avealth or high distinc- tion ; but I Avould make the continued erijoyment of a fellowship by a person no longer pel-forming academical work, subject to the obligation of residence, at any rate up to a certain age, Avith certain exceptions to the rule, to be sanctioned in each case by the visitor. f-Juch a body of resident graduates, most of tliem haAung had practical acquaintance Avith collegi* AVork, though no longer empdoyed in it, would be of much use in Oxford, not only to discharge the municipal duties of the university, which are of great importance to the health of the pfi ace as a residence, and otherwise to its good government as a city, but they are much wanted also to modily and control the now almost exclusively official character of the University Parliament ; and more than that, they are Avanted to constitute what, strange to say, you would look for almost in vain in Oxford, a literary pmblic. If I maj’^ be permitted the uses of a colloquial term, Oxford is become a great shop Avhere learn- ing is chiefljq if not exclusively, sought for its pecuniary value, either as the means of acquiring a felloAVship or of adding to it the income of a tutor, and as the examiners are for the most part selected from the tutors, the natural consequence of this has been to contract the circle of knowledge, how- ever accurate that knoAvledge may be, Avithin a ground so often gone over. The best way of counteracting these causes of decay, would be the residence in Oxford of highly educated and studious men, with nothing particular to do. The non-academical fellowships should, I think, be held only for a term of years, because success in the pn’ofessions to Avhich they belong is more highly rewarded than it is in the academical career, and it is very much the interest of the public to increase the numl.)er of distinguished university men in each of those professions, and of course by shortening the duration of fellovi'ship) their number Avould be increased. The tenure of such fellow'ship)S should, I think, be ten years, Avith a lower stipend during the last five than during the first five years. These temporary fellows should not in my opinion be part of the governing body of the college beyond the right which I Avould giAm to them of A'oting on the election of its head. The third class of fellowships, those given to promote literature and science, should I think be for life, as the poursuits which they are meant to encourage do not -usually lead to Avealth, but they should involve, subject to some liberal excepotions, the obligation of residence. This, more than a,nything else, would tend to give back to Oxford the character which it is fast losing, of a gi-eat centre of knowledge. The condition of celibacy affects in different degrees the different kinds of fidloAvshiprs. The academical fellowships should I think be subject to the restriction at an}^ rate during the fir.st six 161 years of their tenure ; for marriage is not only inconsistent with collegiate life, which it is desirable to encourage, but it is specially incompatible with the duties of a resident tutor. The other two kinds of fellowship should be wholly exempt from the condition. A question might, I think, be raised how the present condition, in its ab.solute form, is consistent with the law, at least as regards new foundations. If I give by will 300/. a year for life, with a proviso that the legatee shall forfeit it by marriage, lie may marry the next day and retain his annuity. Why should I be able to impose the same restriction iipon ten men bound together by a corporate tie as a college, but not subject, as follows of a college used to be, to the obligation of a coenobitic life, which, when clergymen did not lose as such the right of marriage, seems to have been the only reason for continuing in their case the restriction which in Roman Catholic times attached to fellows of a college, not only as coenobites, but as clerics ? As to the mode of electing fellows, which is perhaps the most important point of all, I think the present way of electing by the fellows of each college, upon or after examination, of which I have had fifty years’ experience, is not satisfactoiy. I do not say this as imputing personal partialitjq but I think undue preference is often shown to particular branches of study, and in this way a mischief or an error which may have begun in one college may propagate itself throughout the university, and every year increase its hold, not by its merits, but by the force of possession. I think it would be better that college fellows should be selected Avithout examination from a body qualified ad hoc, by an university examination, conducted by examiners selected in gi-eat measure beyond the circle of the present residents. The persons so selected should have at once an university status and a university stipend, for which they should be liable to do, for a remuneration, any university work Avhich they might be called upon to do, either as lecturers, or as assistants in the Bodleian, or as workers for the Press. As lecturers they would be specially useful to the unattached students. From this body each college, when it had a vacant fellowship, might without examination select its new fellow, of course with the assent which would not always be given of the person selected. The choice would of course be chiefly made with reference to the fitness of the new fellow to perform the work for which the college then wanted him ; but I see no reason why motives of personal pi’eference, or at any rate considerations of social merits, should not also have their weight, the intellectual fitne.ss and acquirements of the person so chosen having been sufticiently tested by the university examination. A certain number of university distinctions might be sufficient to qualify a man to be placed on the roll of university fellows without examination. With regard to professor felloAVships, I entertain more strongly than ever the objections which I expres.sed on my examination to any such connexion between professors and colleges. It is, I think, alike hurtful to the character and position of each. Charlks Neate. FROM THE REVEREND C. A. WHITTUCK, FELLOW OF BRASENOSE COLLEGE. Brasenose College, My Lords and Gentlemen, 31st July 1878. In taking advantage of your invitation to answer your questions, I do not propose to occupy myself with all of them at equal length. In most cases I agree with the decisions arrived at in our college meetings. I shall not therefore state my opinion, except in brief and general terms, on more than a few of the many points of interest which the questions suggest. Question 1. — I think that the wants which are here referred to would be best met if both the religious instruction and the religious services in each of the colleges were entrusted to the care of one, or (if owing to the lai’ge number of undergraduate members in the college it were necessary) two chaplain-fellows. Tliis provision is opposed (1) to the present .system of clerical fellow.ships, the difference consisting in the curtailment of the number of such fellowships and (.see below) certain important alterations in the conditions of their tenure and the mode of election to them. All that is here in point is the adequacy of the means to effect the end. Now, in none but the laro-est colleges could the chapel services and the religious instruction be too great a burden to impose on one man ; indeed, if he Avere debarred from all other teaching (which, however, if he were com- petent, I do not think he should be,) he Avould have too little rather than too much to occupy his time, and in any case he would certainly not have more to do than devolves upon manv clero-ymen in the ordinary course of parish duty. I do not, however, insist on the point as to Av'hether there should be one or two chaplain fellowships ; only that there should not be in any colleo-e more than two. It does not seem to me that the effect of the change which is here proposed Avould in any wav be to make the colleges cease to bo places of religion. I do not mistrust the influence of the lay teachers at Oxford ; but even if I did entertain any such feeling (which I am as far as jiossible from doing) I should still hold that the end Avhich we ought to keep in view in this matter is nothing so general and abstract as that of attempting to check Avhat may be thought to be the dangerous tendencies of the age ; but rather the much more practical one, of providing for the actual every-day Avants of the undergraduates (still the great majority) who are professing members of the Church of England. (2.) On the other hand, this provision is also opposed to the institu- Q e223. 162 tion of cliaplains who are not fellows. Whatever provision is made should at least be effectual. The chaplain would be in an inferior position. He would not have sufficient authority to make his influence to be felt ; and the sense of this would probably degrade him into a mere machine. This is all the more likely, as no one would consent to occupy such a position for more than a short space of time, and the effect of constant changes would be still further to diminish the value of the institution. Question 2. — It is my opinion that no head of a college ought to be requii-ed to be in holy orders. I should wish to see all clerical restrictions abolished except those attaching to the office of the one or two chaplain fellows mentioned above. If it is urged that on more general grounds, i.e., in order to maintain the connexion between the church and the university quite without reference to the discharge of any particular duties, it is desirable that the governing body of a college should consist more largely, than is here proposed, of clei'gymen ; I do not think it is unreasonable or presumptuous to answer that this objection mistakes the position of the Church in the university ; that position is indeed a strong one. But since tests have been abolished, the number of those members of the university who do not belong to the Church has naturally increased, and there is every reason to suppose that it will still continue to increase ; some modifi- cation, therefore, of the present system, which was intended for a state of society in which the influence of the Church in the University Avas not only permanent but exclusive, seems to be absolutely necessary. Question 3. — On the subject of prize fellowships, I wish to state my opinion very shortly. I think they should be prizes in the strictest sense of the Avord, i.e., they should be given after an examination open to all comers. They should be absolutely free as regards marriage and residence. Seven years would be a convenient period for their duration, and I think their value should not exceed 200i. per annum. I cannot see that anything would be gained, AAdnle much would be lost by excluding them from an equal vote with the other fellows in college meetings, until the term of their office had expired. I may say that I think such felloAvships should be extremely few. Question 4. — The fellowships other than prize fellowships would be — 1, official, 2, chaplain fellowships. 1. As to the first, they should be elected as a rule after examination ; but the college should haAm free power to elect where it saw fit without examination. If the official felloAv Avere elected from the class of prize fellows, or from among the fellows of another college (i.e., if he had preAdously been elected to a felloAvship at another college) nothing more should be required than the vote of a majority in his favour. If, however, he Avere elected without any such guarantee, it should be a condition of his election that he should receive not less than tAVO thirds of the votes given. I am in favour also of a system Avhich should oblige each college to elect a given proportion of felloAvs in certain specified branches of study, as, since readers and even professors, will in the long run be taken mainly from this class, it seems to me a haphazard arrangement to allow each college to suit itself in such a matter Avithout reference to the Avants of the university and the respective claims of the Amrious sciences to the support of endoAvraents. I do not mean to say that all fellow- ships should be so regulated ; for the immediate wants of the college itself are of course imperative. But subject to the dispensing authority of some external body, e.g., the Hebdomadal Council, or a committee of the boards of studies, some among the fellowships of each college should be set apart for special subjects. With regard to conditions of tenure, I think that a fellow elected after the above-mentioned securities had been taken might be considered practically in-emovable but no good class of teachers will be procurable if they are liable to sudden dismissal. Besides the college has the control over the income which the official fellow receives for teaching, i.e., over and above his fellowship. At the end of ten years it should be open to an official fellow to retire on (what would be at that time) a small pension ; and at the end of fifteen years it should be competent to the college to oblige him to retire in exchange for a pension. At the end of 25 years’ of service the college should have the power of allowing a felloAV to become the proprietor of his fellowship unconditionally, I do not think that any official fellow ought to be forbidden to marry on pain of losing his fellowship. It is better to restrict marriage indirectly (1) by requiring the residence within the college walls during six months of the year of at least four official fellows ; ( 2) by making a man’s income as a teacher rise in proportion to his length of service. He would thus have a motive for postponing his marriage, and he would be placed in the same position as other professional men, Avho are at liberty to marry, but do not choose to do so before they can afford it. There are many difficulties in I'elaxing the rules about marriage, e.g., that of guarding the rights of senior men whose juniors had married. On the other hand, more stringent regulations with respect to marriage would inevitably have the same effect as they haA'e had in times past, viz., that of driving aAvay from Oxford the best and most efficient teachers. 2. A chaplain felloAv should be elected without examination. Regard should be taken in his election to his theological attainments as well as to his fitness for discharging the duties of his office (Bee under Question No. 1.) He should either be already in holy orders, or should be requii-ed +0 take orders within six months from the day of his election. Two thirds of the votes should be required to make an election of this class valid. In respect to I'esidence and marriage he should stand on the same footing as the official fellows. Question 5. — The scholarships in the different colleges should, in almost all cases, I think, be of uniform value. (There must be some exceptions — my OAvn college is one). This Avould prevent imseemly rivalries. 163 It is not meant to be implied, however, that the uniformity need be the same as exists at present. I should rather wish that there were no 100^. scholarships. I doubt if even a scholarship of 801. value is not too much to start with. I should substitute for such large entrance scholarships, the plan adopted at Cambridge of increasing by degrees the scholarship which a boy gets on coming up from school, so that he might be rewarded in proportion to his deserts in the course of his academical career. A poor man especially wants money at the end of his second year. Question 0. — The teaching of science would scarcely be possible in the colleges unless it formed part of the university course. In this latter case, it would of course be provided for in the same way as other subjects. Speaking generally, I think it might be a good measure to make some knowledge of science necessary for a degree, but I should be sorry to pronounce a positive opinion without more knowledge. I have, &c. Charles A. Whittuck, Fellow and Lecturer, of Brasenose College. FROM G. E. THORLEY, M.A., FELLOW OF WADHAM COLLEGE. la. Religious Instruction. So long as all undergraduates are required to pass in the rudiments of faith and religion, while many of them obtain their degree by means of the Honour School of Theology, colleges will find it at least as necessary to furnish good instruction in Theology as in the other subjects recognised by the university. And I believe that in this way the work will be much better done than by an exceptional provision for religious instruction. It has always appeared to me that college lectures on theological subjects have had an unreal and perfunctory character, which I think must be attributed mainly to the fact of their being put on a different footing to the rest of the college work, and regarded more as a matter of discipline than of study. I am therefore of opinion that if sufficient provision is made for the proper payment of the divinity lecturers, or of the other tutors and lecturers in colleges, all will be done that is necessary or desirable. I have considered the Commissionei’s’ question as relating to theological instruction. Religious and moral influences in a college, to which no one can attach more importance than I do, cannot, in my opinion, be secured by any arrangement of the kind I am now considering. Ih. Religious Services. I do not think that any change is necessary with respect to the religious services in colleges, except that (1) a larger stipend than is now usual should be attached to the office of chaplain. (2) Adequate provision should be made for the incidental expenses of the chapel services. I am of opinion that it is in the last degree undesirable that the chaplain should be ex officio a fellow. I believe that the effect of an arrangement of this kind would be rather to lower than to raise the position and influence of the chaplain in the college. In practice no doubt a fellow would generally hold the office, and I think it desirable that it should be so. 2. I am strongly of opinion that the qualification of holy orders should not be necessary for any fellowship or headship of a college. I believe that these restrictions are eminently injiu’ious to the university as a place of learning and education, and still moi’e so as a place of I’eligion. So long as fellowships are regarded, as is now the case, as the rewards of successful study, so long the requirement of the institution of holy orders for some of them will appear to the majority of candidates for fellowships unfair, and will produce a feeling of bitterness, and in many cases of animosity towards the clerical profession altogether. A young man who has passed a successful and laborious university career*, finds himself unable to obtain a fellowship, and at the same time sees that others, in no sense his superiors, sometirnes being much his' inferiors, obtain the prize by engaging to take holy orders. It must be remembered that those who refuse to engage to take holy orders at the early age at which most men are candidates for fellowships are often persons who have by no means finally decided not to become clergymen, but who simply refuse to take so serious an engagement as his con- dition of obtaining a great pecuniary prize, ^’hey are, I venture to think, precisely those who would be most desirable as fellows of colleges. I believe that the existence of this restriction has sometimes the effect of preventing the ablest and most conscientious men from adopting the clerical profession. It is within my own knowledge that men who intend to take holy orders sometimes refuse to be candidates for clerical fellowships. While objecting veiy strongly to the condition of holy orders as a necessary qualification for any fellowships, I see no reason why fellowships should not from time to time be given as the rewards of theological learning. In this way the colleges would gain persons competent to give theological instruction, and who would probably also in most cases become clergymen. Perhaps it may be worth while to mention the experience of my own college in this matter. We have never had any clerical restrictions in the fellowships, yet there have always been clergymen amongst the fellows. In the last 11 years we have filled up five open fellowships ; of the five persons elected two have since taken holy orders. X 2 164 With respect to the headships of colleges, I would point out that a large and increasing number of those engaged in the work of the place as professors, tutors, or lecturers are not clergymen, and that the restriction of holy orders very seriously limits the choice of the electors. As I believe that the efficiency of a college depends to a large extent on its head, I cannot but think that this limitation is very injurious. I believe that it often leads to appointments which are not satisfactory. The head of a college should, in my opinion be chosen either on account of his literary or scientific distinction, or of his administrative competence and past services to his college, and I think that any restriction which interferes with the choice being made on these grounds is a serious misfortune. I have never been able to see that any of the duties of the head of a college are such as require a clergyman for their performance. These restrictions in fellowships and headships, while they do not in my opinion increase the religious character of the colleges, have the effect of making ecclesiastical interests rather than those of learning or education paramount in the place. They tend also to produce an exceedingly undesirable antagonism between clerical and academical interests, and sometimes, 1 have my’self no doubt, a feeling of antagonism to religion in any form. 3 and 4. With respect to questions 3 and 4, I have, no remark to make, but that I should regret to see any considerable difference, except as to duration of tenure, established between prize fellow- ships and others. 5. I think it is of the highest importance that some degree of uniformity should, if possible, be secured in the value and conditions of tenure of the scholarships in the different colleges. The colleges, in competition with each other, have laised the emoluments of their scholarships to a point much higher than is in my opinion desirable. I believe that this general increase in value has raised the standard of expense amongst scholars, and indirectly amongst all undeigraduates. And it does not seem to me desirable that a comparison of colleges, according to the amount of money they offer, should be encouraged more than is necessary. C. It does not appear to me desirable, or with the pre.sent educational system of the university practicable, to make provision in eveiy college for the iiistruction of all undergraduates in natural science. But I have long thought that if some more complete provision than now exists were made in colleges for giving elementary instruction in some blanches of natural science, man}' undergraduates who now pass through the university without special interest in any subject, would be led to take an interest in natural science, and not seldom to its successful study. I have certainly found it of use, even Avithout any appliances for scientific study in the college, to have a lecturer to whom undergraduates, when beginning the subject, may go for advice and elementary instruction I am aware that the professors are quite willing to give advice to those who consult them, but in practice I have found that to many undergraduates a professor is somewhat formidable, and that they go much more readily at first to a college tutor or lecturer. I am not speaking of undergraduates who came here with some scientific knowledge, and Avith the distinct intention of pursuing the study. These will, 1 iiave no doubt, find all they Avant in the university museum. But it must be remembered that a majority of our undergraduates come here without special interest in any subject whatever. Many of them acquire, during their resi- dence here, a taste for classical or historical study. I can see no reason why the case should not be the same in respect of natural science. I have, &c. G. E. Thorley. July 31st, 1878. FROM THE HON. G. C. BRODRICK, M.A., FELLOW OF MERTON COLLEGE. 32a, Mount Street, London, Sir, August 5, 1878. In reply to your letter of May 1878, I desire to lay before the University of Oxford Com- missioners my views on the sev'eral questions therein contained, but especially on the que.stions marked 3 and 4, to which I have given much attention. 1. I think a distinction should be draAvn between theological instruction and religious services. For the purpose of securing the former, it might be proper that, in future, one tutor at least should be a gi’aduate in the School of Theology, but I am not prepared to recommend that such a pro- vision should be inserted in college statutes, because I regard the whole organisation of college tuition as a subject for domestic regulation, and not to be stereotyped by fixed statutable rules. I am satisfied with the provision for religious services in the Universities Tests Act, and, in my opinion, there is no practical difficulty in requiring attendance at chapel from all undergraduates who do not plead conscientious objections. 2. I am entirely against all clerical restrictions in the case of fellowships or headships, except, perhaps, in the form of a power to elect a chaplain-fellow already in holy orders without examina- tion. If one tutor is to be specially charged with the duty of giving religious instruction, let it be provided that he should be a graduate in the School of Theology, not that he should be a clergy- man in holy orders. Practically, of course, he would usually be a clergyman, but his qualification should be academical and not ecclesiastical. 3. I must demur at the outset to the expression “ Prize fellowships,” if it he intended to designate a particular class of fellowships, henceforth to be distinguished from others. In my opinion the system established by the Oxford University Commission of 1854, under which the great mass of fellowships are awarded by open competition upon grounds of academical merit, is nob merely defensible in principle, but has been eminently beneticial in its results. The reasons for this opinion are stated in a letter written by myself and published in the “ 'l imes of April 18, 1876, which I beg leave to subjoin. Holding the views there explained, I deprecate any very large diminution in the number or value of so-called “ Prize fellowships,” as likely to have a disastrous effect ou university education, and even on the standard of culture in English societv. I consider it to be absolutely certain that young men of the highest ability are attracted to Oxford, and induced to prosecute studies which promise no immediate pecuniary return mainly by the hope of obtaining the modest competence of a fellowship. I am by no means sure that in the aggregate the income of Oxford fellowships is much more than sufficient to counterbalance the gravitation towards money-making trades or professions, or that a sweeping reduction of this fund would not be followed by a corresponding decline in the attainments and character of Oxford students. Never- theless, I am of opinion that it would, on the whole, be desirable to substitute for the present system of tenure for life or during celibacy, a system of tenure for a certain term of years, subject to no other restriction. Seven years appear to me a term which might be at once sufficient to encourage advanced study in the university, and to give a fair start to fellows entering professional careers, where they must compete at some disadvantage with rivals whose special training usually begins at a much earlier age. 4. 1 should very strongly object to any distinction being drawn between one class of fellowships and another in respect of rights or emoluments. I think it is quite enough to provide that any fellow elected to a college office should continue to hold his fellowship c?i4.9’a??ie ojfficio ; that any fellow elected to an university office should enjoy the same privilege if the college think fit ; and that any fellow having made, or making, important contributions to science or literature, should have a claim to a renewal of his tenure for a limited period. The power to elect tutor-fellows without examination, as well as the power to elect persons of eminence in science or literature, should also be extended under proper limitations. But I fail to see what good object would be served by placing such fellows on a different footing from those elected in the ordinary way by examination. If fellowships awarded by examination are not to exceed a capital value of given amount, it is obviously quite as easy to effect this end by abridging their duration as by reducing their annual income ; while it is far less invidious and detrimental to the unity of a college. Nor should it be forgotten that to subsidise college tutorshi[)s very largely out of the corporate funds is simply to offer college tuition to all comers at much less than cost price. Now, although I believe that scholarships and exhibitions, judiciously awarded, are a most valuable part of the collegiate system, I do not understand why commoners of ample means and no .special merit should not pay for their own tuition. I may add that, according to my experience, it is quite possible to over-endow tutorships as distinct from professorships or readerships. With the exception of a few who have a peculiar voca- tion for tuition, and whose services might be retained by an increase of salary, the most efficient college tutors are young and unmarried men. When tutors many and become encumbered with families, they naturally expect larger stipends, but they are too often worth less than before as college teachers, being less accessible to their pupils, throwing less heart into their work, and perhaps eking out their incomes by remunerative employment outside the college. In my opinion, nothing will be gained by making ordinary tutorships eligible positions for married men. One such tutorship in a college will generally be enough ; the rest should be mainly filled by young men on their promotion, and looking forward (as many now do) either to professor- ships in universities or to lucrative masterships in public schools. The gradual extension of professorships and readerships contemplated by the Commissioners will strengthen the inducements, already comsiderable, for remaining in Oxford and accepting tutorships; and a further premium might be offered to fellows desirous of engaging in college tuition, by providing that any time thus spent shall not be counted in the seven years’ tenure of a fellowship, .^ut I think it would be mi,schievous to establish such a system of tutorial pensions as would encourage the majority of college tutors to hold their offices for 20 or 30 years. 5. I think it would be very desirable to assimilate college scholarships, in respect of value an conditions of tenure, if it can be done without unduly interfering with the independence of colleo-e government ; for the present tendency of colleges to bid against each other involves no slight waste of endowments. Perhaps some control might be vested in an university board ; and there ouD-ht certainly to be an increase in the number of university scholarships. 6. Believing that an elementary knowledge of natural science is an essential part of a liberal education, I think instruction in this subject ought to be given by colleges to all who have not already received it at school. I remain, &c. The Secretary, University George C. Brodrick, M.A. of Oxford Commission. (Fellow of Merton College ) 16 fi A Defence of Fellowships. To the Editor of the “ Times'" Sir, Of all the questions involved in the .pending reform of the universities, the question con- cerning the utility of college fellowships is certainly the most important, as it is probably tlie least understood. If a large part of existing college revenues, as distinct from any prospective surplus, is to be confiscated for university purposes, the fund now appropriated to fellowships is practically the only considerable fund on which the Commissioners will be free to operate. It is admitted that no great saving can be effected on the very economical management of college estates. It is evidently not intended by Lord Salisbury that any grants should be withdraAvn from the augmentations of college livings, if, indeed, it be not intended to secure those augmentations. No one proposes to reduce the number or value of college scholarships ; Parliament has even shown a disposition to increase the salaries of college tutors, and the incomes of headships are expressly protected by the Oxford Universit}^ Bill. It follows that any substmitial contribution which colleges may be required to make out of their present revenues to university objects — whether it be for the extension of buildings, the development of the professoriate, or the encouragement of “ mature study and research ” — must be made, in one form or another, at the expense of the fellowship system. This design is frankly avowed by Loixl Salisbury himself, and it is fair to admit that Lord Salisbury's views are here shared by many university reformers of a very different type. The question concei'ning the utility of college fellowships is, happily no party question. There are those who chiefly value the universities as strongholds and seminaries of the church, yet who are radical opponents of the fellowship system ; there are those who regard that sy.stem as the mainspring of English university education, yet are eager to banish from it every vestige of ecclesiastical ascendancy. It is therefore pos.sible to discuss the merits and demei’its of college fellowships on purely academical or purely national grounds. Speaking from this point of view, I am anxious to state a few of the reasons which convince me that not only academical education and learning, but the whole tone of national cultni-e, would suffer grie\fiously, and perhaps hopelessly, by any wholesale suppression of college fellowships. Before doing so, however, I will ask your permission to explain, for the benefit of your non academical readers, one or two points which university men sometimes treat as if they were .self-evident. Mucli has been .said lately of “ sinecure fellowships,” “ prize fellowships,” “ non-resident fellowships,” “idle fellowships,” and the uninitiated public is naturally led to suppose that fellow.ships are divided into two classes, the one subject to conditions of residence, and in the nature of a salary for tuition, the other subject to no condition of re.sidence, and in the nature of a mere pension. The fact is that, with rare and trifling exceptions, all Oxford fellowships are held on precisely the same tenure, save that some are confined to persons in or about to enter holy orders, while others are equally tenable by laymen or by clergymen. All Oxford fellowships, with rare and trifling exceptions, are open to memi)ers of any college in the university, and are awarded as prizes for academical merit, tested by competitive examination ; all are liable to be forfeited by marriage, but may otherwise be held for life ; all ai'e sinecures, in the sense that no legal obligation to reside or teach attaches to them, although every fellow is legally bound to serve his college, if summoned thereto, and morally bound to participate in its administration. Some are induced by the attractions of coUcgc life, by the offer (jf a moderate but immediate income, by the love of learning and teaching, or by a shrinking from ]u'ofessional .struggles, to accept the position of a college tutor; others go abroad into the world and launcli into active careers, educational or non-educational, as the case may be ; a very few are tempted, by the early possession of a competence, to lounge or dream away the best part of their lives either at the university or elsewhere. So far as I have been able to ascertain by careful inquiry, I should estimate that fully half the fellows of Oxford Colleges are resident, that nearly all the resident fellows are engaged in public or private tuition, and that a considerable proportion of the non-resident felloAvs are engaged in education as masters of schools or otherwise, the rest, Avith very few exceptions, being members of learned professions. But all of them are equally .sinecurists, in respect of their fellow.ships, since they are all equally entitled to draw their dividends, wholly irrespective of the occupation Avhich they may or may not be following. This being so it is a perfectly legitimate question whether the expenditure of somewhat less than 100,000/. a year on some 850 such Oxford fellowships is defensible on ground of national policy. True, 100,000/. a year is far beloAv the rental of some landoAvners and the income of some capitalists, less than an eighth of Avhat is stated to have been pocketed in one year by one nobleman fortunate enough to combine both these capacities — a mere bagatelle compared with the sums expended in gunnery experiments at Shoeburyness, oi‘ in coating one man-of-war after another Avith armour perilous to its buoyancy. Still, it is 100,000/. of public money, as all seem to be now agreed, and it is not enough to .show that no other 100,000/. of public money is expended better, unless it can also be shown that, upon the wliole, the present application of it is good in principle and in practice. This is all that is maintained by reasonable advocates of the fellowship system, and it may be useful to point out some positions which they do not maintain. They do not maintain that no improvement of this system is possible ; on the contrary, a great majority of them are in favour of substituting a fixed term of years without any restriction of celibacy for the present celibate life tenure. Nor do they maintain that fellowships might not be rendei-ed more directly conducive to the promotion of education and learning ; on the contrary, most of them would be in favour of allowing felloAvships to be retained beyond the ordinary fixed term by persons engaged in college or university service, while many would desire to see college fellowships attached to all, or nearly all, the professor- 107 slii])s. Nevcrtlicless, il' 1 were compelled to clioose between I’ctaining tlie Oxford fellowsidj) ^i_y, stein exactly as it is — with the clo'ical i-estrictions and the lade of celil^acy still in force — and sweeping away that system altogether, I should pronounce, without the smallest hesitation, for the former alternative, it is little to say that such was the delibei'ate opinion of the last Oxford University Commission, for the fellowship system now established is the princifial creation of that Commission ; but, if I do not fortify myself by their authority, it is solely because no authority whatever can he so decisive as experience. On the evidence of experience, then, I submit that open competition for scholarships and fellowships, coupled with the institution of class lists in degree examinations, has done more for the revival of education and learning at Oxford than all the efforts of professors and tutors, or all other agencies put together. Those who speak with scorn of honours and emoluments as incentives to academical industry, and profess to believe that young men would read more earnestly and to better purpose without hope of distinction or reward, would do well to look back at what has been justly called the abject state ” of Oxford education in the last century. That should, indeed, have been the golden age of disinterested study. There were no honours awarded in the university exa- minations, so that each student was free to follow the bent of his own genius, and though fellowships existed, they were mainly confined to privileged schools and localities, or distributed by personal favour, so that knowledge was its own reward. The consequence was a stagnation both of educa- tion and of learning worthy of the Dark Ages. The fii’st step towards improvement was the Examination Statute of 1800, which initiated the system of “classes;” the secondwasthewi.se example set by one or two colleges in throwing open their endowments to merit ; the last was the extension of this policy to all the colleges of Oxford by the Commi.s.sion of 1854. In the 20 years that have elapsed since the work of that Commission was completed, the educational life of Oxford has been doubled in amount, and more than doubled in variety, notwithstanding that it was long- before the expiration of vested interests brought the new system into general operation, and that it has not even yet produced its full effects. Not only has the number of students graduating with honours largely increased during this period, but new branches of study have been inti-oduced, the standard of attainment in the old branches of .study has been materially raised, college tuition has become more efficient, and Oxford now contains a considerable body of men, besides its professors, cultivating letters and science for their own sake. I do not, of course, assert that all this accession of intellectual activity is due to the opening of fellowships, but I do assert, and that without fear of contradiction, that no other reform has been nearly so powerful in sustaining a high standard of reading and a constant supply of men competent to fill tutorships and ]wofessorshi]xs. The stimu- lating effect of fellowships is clearly illustrated by the comparative vigour of different studies at both universities. If mathematics are both taught and learnt with greater success at Cambridge, it is chiefly because mathematical honours are still the surest passport to Cambridge fellowships. For a converse reason, classics have long maintained a like supremacy at Oxford, though it is easier to obtain a first class in any of the non-classical “schools,” and those of the non-classical “ schools ” which are observed to flourish most are just those which have received most encouragemeiit in the substantial form of fellowships. Nor is this due to any special vice of the English university sy.stem. For want of fellowships the more advanced academical studies notoriously languish in the JScotch Universities, notwithstanding the ability of their professorial staff, and wmuld languish far more seriou.sly were it not that some of their most promising students are induced to work on by the prospect of ultimately Avinning fellowships at the Engli.sh Universities. The very same diffi- culty in retaining clever students uj) to the age of intellectual maturity, without the aid of fellow- ships, is a well-knoAvn subject of complaint in American Universities, and if it is not equally a subject of complaint in German Universities the cause must be sought partly in the peculiarly German re.spect for intellectual eminence, and partly in the German State patronage of universities and professions. Yet there are not a few university reformei's who, regardless of these facts, regard pi-ize fellow-- ships as superfluous, because, as tliey allege, their ideal student having been enabled by prize scholarships to complete his education at a moderate cost, may be safely left thenceforward to shift for himself. So reasoned the simple counti-y folk who killed the goose that laid the golden eggs. There is something, indeed, to be said for luring the imaginary students onwards with the promise of a fellowship, and then cajoling him out of it ; nor is it impossible that, in his desperate efforts to retrieve his disappointment, he might distinguish himself as much in after life as if he had gained the object of his ambition. But there is nothing to be said for holding out no such expectation to him, and I am firmly convinced that if Oxford had scholarships Avithout felloAvships, and Cambridge had fellow’ships Avithout scholarships, the former university Avoidd be very soon dwarfed Iiy the latter. However valuable scholarships may be in attracting young men of small means and high capacity, it is certain that most of the best candidates for scholarships look forward to Avinning fellow.ships, and that, but for this hope, many of them Avould never come to the university at all. Not that young men of this class are specially actuated by mercenary considei-ations. On the coTitrary, they are remarkable for their superiority to mercenary considerations, and Avould often be Avilling to .spend preciou.s years of life in contending for a laurel or a parsley croAvn. But parents are not quite so uinvorldly, and daily e.xperience shows that shreAvd men of business have a AA-holesome dread of the non-utilitarian tastes and aspirations fo.steied by Oxford and Cambridge. A.s.suredly it is no time for the abolition of fellowships, when academical culture is pressed more and more keenly by the competition of money-making, and Avhen more and more youths, capable of the highest academical culture, are rising by means of scholarships from the loAver ranks of society. X 4 168 But it is often asserted with great confidence that Oxford, with all her fellowships, does very- little for literature and science. If this assertion were true in fact, it would not prove that Oxford, without fellowships, would not do still less, while it implies the untenable assumption that f.he promotion of literature and science, and not the education of English youth, is the primary duty of an English university. I am prepared, however, to maintain that it is not true in fact. No doubt fewer monographs issue from Oxford than from some German universities, and the ab'est Oxford teachers apply themselves more assiduously to cultivating the minds of their pupils than to enhancing their own reputation, or even to advancing by a few inches the frontier of their own specialities. But I cannot for a moment admit that for the last 25 years, during which I have been connected with the university, Oxford has been at all barren either of literary or scientific results. When I look down the list of Oxford professors, I find there several names of European reputation, and when I look outside the narrow pale, I am fully satisfied that Oxford will have no reason to be ashamed if she must speak with her enemies in the gate. In the domain of theology I recall the names of Pusey, Mansel, Stanley, Mozley, and Liddon ; in that of classical scholarship, the names of Liddell, Scott, Conington, Robinson Ellis, Nettleship, and Wordsworth • in that of philology, the names of Max Muller and Sayce ; in that of history, the names of Freeman, Stubbs, Froude, Pearson, Shirley, Gardiner, and Bryce ; in that of philosophical and genei’al litera- ture, the names of Jowett, Pattison, Matthew Arnold, Goldwin Smith, Church, Symonds, Green and Pater ; in that of mathematical science, the names of Donkin, Price, Henry Smith, and Spottis- woode ; in that of natural science, the names of Daubeny, Phillips, Rolleston, Clifton, Odlin^ and Maskelyn ; and in that of economical science, the names of J. E. T. Rogers and Bonamy Price besides a host of otl)ers, some not less distinguished, which must occur to any one acquainted with the recent literary history of Oxford. Nearly all these authors are or were fellows of colleo-es, and all have published works of acknowledged excellence under their own names. Were it lawful to identify the anonymous writers of articles in literary and scientific periodicals, or to unlock the secrets of journalism, the case Avould be infinitely stronger. Since this is forbidden, I have glanced over 12 numbers of two leading reviews, the “ Contemporary” and the “Fortnightly,” which admit signed articles, and I find that at least a fourth of the articles in those reviews, during the last year, were contributed by fellows or ex-fellows of Oxford or Cambridge. Far be it from me to exaggerate the value of such evidence, but I cannot forbear to express the conviction that, while English periodicals and journals contain some of the best and most chai’acteristic products of English thought, it is more than doubtful whether their present high standard of spirit and style would be long upheld, if the supply of scholars and gentlemen were cut off at the fountain head by the destruction of college fellowships. For this, after all, is the broad question to be faced, and it is a question of which the beaidno-s extend far beyond the educational or literary world. Even if fellowships did not operate as a reservoir of teaching power for the universities and public schools, even if they were not required as a counterpoise to the attractions of lucrative careers demanding early apprenticeship, even if the leisure secured by them were more rarely devoted to science or letters, even if their influence did not make itself l)eneHcially felt in all the principal organs of political and literary opinion, it Avould still remain to be considered whether tliey do not render the nation good service in liberalizing the professions and English society itself. Certainly the presumptive evidence in favour of this opinion is very strong indeed. If we refer to the clerical profession, we find that 15 of the English bishops, and a very lai-ge proportion of English deans, were fellows of colleges. If we refer to the leo-al profession, we find that, although ability without interest no longer commands practice at the Bar, yet three Lord Chancellors within the last 12 years, botii the present Lord Chief Justices, and a remarkable number of distinguished living barristers, were also fellows of colleges. As I have said elsewhere, “if it were possible to lay before the public a list of Oxford and Cambridge fellows who “ have attained leading positions in the great educational profession, in the law, in Parliament, in “ the various Government offices, and even in the commercial world, little more would be heard of “ the notion that fellowships quench ambition or bar the road to success ; and we might, perhaps, “ have to comliat the counter-objection that the fellows of colleges start with an unfair advantage “ in the race of life.” Bub it is needless to pursue this line of ai'gument further. It will hardly be denied that not only in every diocese and on every circuit, but in every considerable town, and in most political or social circles, the presence of fellows or ex-fellows of colleges imports an infusion of general culture if not of special learning. If an excess of intellectual interests and aspirations were the besetting weakness of the upper and middle classes in this country, I could better sympathize with the anxiety of some reformers to get rid of an institution which has so largely contributed to diffuse such interests and asp'rations in these classes. If, again, this object could be attained by concen- trating all the intellectual energy generated at the universities within their own sacred precincts, I should be more dispose:! to accept the counsels of those who desire to found a liberal endowment of “ mature study and original research” on the ruins of college fellowships. For my own part, when I look around me and see both political and social influence almost exclusively shared between men who have received it by hereditary succession and men who have purchased it by a talent for making their fortunes — when I see the independent elements of English society well nigh crushed out between territorial aristoci’acy and commercial plutocracy — I confess that I regard the 100,000^. yearly spent on Oxford fellowships as among the most profitable of our national investments, and should deplore the withdrawal of it as nothing less than a national disaster. Call these fellowships “ bribes’' if you will ; at all events they are bribes of which the effect is to raise the character of the community as well as of the i;ecipient. Call them “ pensions ” if you will ; at all events they 169 are pensions of very modest amount, awarded strictly according to merit, and yielding an ample return in public benefit. Why the intellectual resource.s of the nation should be thus impoverished hy the sacrifice of fellowships is what no one has yet attempted to show. While I am one of those who advocate an increased endowment of teaching at Oxfoid, and am not even opposed to a dis- criminating endowment of research, I do not in the least expect as important results from these measures as have been actually produced by simply opening .scholai-ships and fellowships. Still less do I understand why the creation of a new motive power should be supposed to require the destruction of an existing motive power now working so admirably, especially when there is already room enough, and will soon be funds enough, to support both. If such an experiment is to he tried, I should prefer that it should be tried on some other university than my own, for, as Lord Cardwell remarked, in case it should fail, the failure might prove irreparable. When the life and soul of the college system had been extinguished, as it surely would be, with the extinction of fellowships — when it had been discovered that, for want of materials, the manufacture of professors and tutors was sadly deteriorated — when the dearth of liberal culture which all can recogTiise in America had become manifest in England, the nation would realize at last, but it would realize too late, how deeply, how widely, and how variously it had been indebted to college fellowships. I remain, &c. Georoe C. Brodrick. o2a. Mount Street, W., April 17. FROM FELLOWS OF BALLIOL COLLEGE. My Lords and Gentlemen, September 6, 1878. We, the undersigned, fellows of Balliol College, Oxford, desire respectfully to express our partial dissent from the corporate answer given by our college to Question 1 on the paper of questions which Ave received from you. (1.) We think that no uniform rule as to the best way of making proper and effectual jnovisiun for the chapel services can be laid down for all colleges, and we do not agi’ee with the principle implied in the Balliol College statutes to which the college in its answer refers the Commissioners, the principle, namely, that it is necessary in all cases that the person who conducts the chapel services should be a fellow of the college. We believe that the full effects of the chapel services are neither necessarily secured by the fact that the chaplain is a fellow, nor necessarily impaired by the fact that he is not. This being our opinion, parti}' based upon the experience of our own college, we should not wish to see a fellowship necessarily attached to an office which involves duties so comparatively light as those of a college chaplain. (2.) As regards the best mode of providing for religious instruction in the colleges, we also disagree with the principles implied in the Balliol College statutes referred to in the answer of the college, the principles, namely, that such instruction is necessarily best given by a person in holy orders, and that such person should necessarily be a fellow of the college. We think firstly, that Avhile such instruction would often naturally devolve on a person in holy orders, there Avould be occasions on Avhich it could be equally well given by a layman ; and secondly, we think, that having regard to the difficulty of always securing a fit person for this work, the obligation to have a felloAv in holy orders in the college is in itself no guarantee whatever that such instruction Avill be given in the best way. We venture according!}' to think that Avhile it is of great importance that religious instruction should form part of the instruction given by the colleges, and that general provision should be made for it in the college statutes, the best mode of carrying out the provision is not to set ajDart special fellowships, still less clerical fellowships, for the work, but to leave it, like other educational tletails, to the judgment of each college as a place of religion, learning, and education. As the expression “ religious instruction ” is somewhat ambiguous, we would add that in what we have said we have not understood such instruction to be confined to the jjass divinity required in moderations and the Final Classical School ; but if it were so confined, our reasons against its being necessarily given by a person in holy orders, and against such a person’s being necessarily a fellow of the college, would, we think, be doubly strong. F'or, in the first place, we do not consider it a function of the college to provide special instruction in pass subjects, and we do not see why pass divinity should be an exception ; and, in the second place, it is plain that a clerical felloAV elected mainly or solely to give such instruction would be in an undesirably different position fronv the other fellows of the college. (Signed) R. L. Nettleshir. Signed on behalf of A. Goodavin, \V. H. Forbes, A. C. Bradley, H. H. Asquith. Q 6223. Y 170 FROM THE REVEREND J. R. MAGRATH, PRO-PROVOST OF QUEEN’S COLLEGE. Queen’s College, Oxford, Deae Sir, September 12, 1878. I SHALL be obliged if you will bring before the notice of the Oxford University Commission the following statement. I much regret that the multifarious duties of college life have prevented me hitherto from addressing myself to replying to the questions contained in your circular letter No. 10 of the 30th May last. Most of the subjects referred to in those questions have been matters of earnest consideration with me for some years past. Though from circumstances the statement of solutions I veiiture to propose will be in form somewhat hasty, the solutions arrived at have been the result of much inquiry and discussion. 1. If the Commissioners, after consultation with the governing bodies of the several colleges, provide for the constitution or continuance in each college of the offices which may in each case bp determined to be requisite for making provision for religious instruction and religious services in the different colleges, and give to the holders of those offices places upon the governing bodies of the colleges, they will, in my judgment, have adopted the best mode of fulfilling the object of the first question. In order to secure to the holders of these offices a proper intellectual status among the members of the governing body it will be desirable to stipulate that no person shall be appointed to such an office who either is not a holder of a fellowship awarded after open competition, or has not obtained some specified academical distinction, or does not possess some specific qualification for the office, of a high order, such qualification to be described in detail in the statutes of the college. 2. I am personally of opinion that it is not desirable that the qualification of holy orders should continue to be necessary for any place of emolument in any college not specially connected with the duty of giving religious instruction or conducting religious services. 3. I should deprecate the division of the fellowships in any college into two sharjfiy marked classes. The objects aimed at in such division I should endeavour to secure by making all fellowships in the first histance terminable, and continuing the tenure of fellowships held by persons peiforming specific duties to the college. A college is too small a body to be divided into two Ijodies, with different interests and prospects, without danger to its efficiency. As to the terms under which fellowships should be held, I should be disposed, from the difficulty of forecasting the results of legislation, to allow different colleges to try varying conditions, so as in the future to l)e able to arrive at something like a conclusion as to the Irest terms. The terms, I should think, before experiment, likely to work best are : 1. A duration of 10 years. 2. Celibacy and property qualification during such period. If a man can keep a wife and family he does not need a fellowship, and the fellow- ship fund is too small to be squandered on persons who do not need support. 3. The value should vary within limits with the productiveness of the college property. Fellows with a fixed income will not have the natural motive for interesting themselves in college business, and may be in danger of misappropriating academic revenue to unacademic objects. When such expenditure afi’ects the value of a fellowship an opponent has practically a veto upon it, but if it does not affect their incomes few would take the trouble seriously to resist a “ fad ” even of a small minority. 4. Persons holding specific offices oi' performing specified duties to the college should not vacate their fellowships at the time fixed as the term for fellowships in general. It would probably be found necessary to fix a period of service, or, probably, better, a time of life at which these offices should be vacated, and (unless means were found for creating a pension fund) to provide that the fellowship (or its emoluments) should be tenable after the vacation of the office. There would be no objection to the fellowships increasing in value with seniority if in all cases the value of the fellowship varied with the productiveness of the college property. Institution to a benefice with cure of souls should in all cases vacate a fellowship. 5 . I am strongly opposed, from considerations both of histoiy and of expediency, to any attempt tending to uniformity in the value and conditions of tenure of scholarships on the foundations of the different colleges. The free play of variety in these respects in the past has been productive of the greatest good to education in the university and the country. The stimulus given by the throwing- open of close scholarships, the advantages secured to the poorer students by the increase in the value of the scholarships, the difference in the relative value set now and 20 or .50 years ago on the scholarships at this and that college, have been due to the freedom allowed the colleges in dealing with these matters. If uniformity is now prescribed, the result will be to stereotype, so long as the prescription holds, the present state of things, and the colleges which happen just now not to be in the foremost of popularity will sink relatively lower in the scale, and sink hopelessly. It is desirable on all accounts that a healthy emulation between the colleges should be maintained. The University Committee of Privy Council may be safely trusted to see that extravagances are not committed, and short of this it is on every ground desirable that the colleges should be encouraged to eveiy variety of experiment for facilitating the introduction to the university of all the available talent of the country. The example set by Corpus of fixing the value of their scholarships at a sum which might fairly be expected to cover a man’s expenses, has brought to the university many a student of promise who othei'wise could uot’or would not have come ; and the fear expressed, that the colleges will commit extravagances in bidding against one another for promising pupils, has been belied by the recent history of the university. Whether a property (][ualification might not be required for scho- larships as for fellowships is a separate question. The sons of men of wealth might be given the 171 honorary privileges of scholars without the emoluments. But it is greatly to be hoped that the instances of a few rich young scholars setting a bad example of exti'avagance in a college here or there may not be used as an argument to cut down the value of scholarships to a sum which will preclude young men of promise with no means or influence from the advantages of a university education. Keble has achieved a legitimate success by the pecuniary advantages it offers to its undergraduate members. There seems no reason why privileges offered by Keble to all who can pass a matriculation examination should not be opened by the richer colleges to aspirants of a higher intellectual calibre. 6. There are two questions involved in this heading. I am on the whole disinclined to enlarge the curriculum to be required by the university of every undergraduate. Should it, however, be thought desirable that a specified modicum of natural science should be exacted from all under- graduates, I have no doubt that every college which has the good of its undergraduates at heart would see that this subject should be taught within the college under proper supervision and control. If any such extension of the curriculum should be in contemplation it will be necessary for ample provision to be made for subsidising this pai't of the college teaching from the external revenues of the college, as experience has shown that natural science teaching entails a considei'able and con- stantly increasing expense. To prevent this letter from extending itself inordinately it has been necessary to refrain, as far as possible, from stating at length the arguments in favour of or against the different positions touched on in it. I have not in all cases alleged the grounds for my opinions which seemed to me to have most force (when they were obvious) but those which seemed to me to be most often overlooked. I am, &c. The Secretary, J. R. Magrath, University of Oxford Commission. Pro-Provost. FROM T. H. WARD, M.A., BRASENOSE COLLEGE. My Lords and Gentlemen, September 28, 1878. I SHOULD not have wished to trouble you with any separate answers to the questions No. 10, had it not beeir that my friend and colleague, Mr. Word.sworth, has written and printed his own answers to them. As my position with regard to the college is precisely the same as Mr. Words- worth’s, being that of a tutor and ex-fellow, as we neither of us had any share in the common answers sent in by the college meeting, and as on many points I dissent from the views expressed by Mr. Wordsworth, perhaps I may be exciised for offering a few remarks. 1 . The hesi mode of making effectual provision for religious instruction and religious services in the different colleges. 1 cannot agree that the best mode is to have a minimum of (in our own college) four clerical fellows, “ with regular duties assigned to them, just as if they were incumbents of parishes with cure of souls.” Not to dwell on the fact that such a proposal is directly opposed to the spirit of the Acts of 18.54 and 1871, I demur to the assumption that all the theological teaching of the luiivensity is to be done by clergymen. The pass examinations in divinity are clearly not beyond what is familiar ground to all lay tutors ; and with regard to the Theological Honour School, many of us have always thought it a great misfortune that it should have been from the outset so dis- tinctively clerical in its organisation and in its tone. It is indisputable that in many of the subjects which the school comprehends (such ascritiea sacra and ecclesiastical history) the university teaching suffers from being in tbe hands of clergymen alone, just as the university teaching of moral philosophy would suffer if it were always in the hands of Hegelians alone or of Comtists alone, and just as the university teaching of biology would suffer if it were permanently entrusted to those only who took one side in the evolution controversy. My colleague speaks of “ the arid “ theology of Protestant Germany but it is to Germany and to Holland that the student must go if he wishes really to get to the bottom of disputed points in church history or textual criticism. The reason why English theology has been so one-sided, and therefore — except, indeed, as I readily admit, in a personal and emotional aspect — so barren of results, is that it is from beginning to end a professional theology. Nor can I admit the assumption that “the work of guiding and helping pupils at a critical period of their lives ” is one which is necessarily better performed by a clerical than by a lay tutor. If that were the case, either all college tutors ought to be clerical, or this work should in each college be handed over to one clerical official, to whom the pupils of all tutors alike should have access. It Avould liardly be argued that either of these would be a desirable reform. I think that the regulation of the college services is much better left to the mixed college meeting than to the clerical fellows, either acting alone or in concert with the principal. The mixed College meeting, while bound by law to make due provision for the services, contains the lay element which is likely to guai’d against extravagancies. Y 2 2. Cltr'ical felloioslilps and /iectcZs/t/^w (considered apart from the question of religions instruction and services). A. In defence of the clerical restriction on the Headship of our own college it is said that “this “ is the best guai antee that it will continue to be a place of religion, and is calculated to give con- “ fidence to those who entrust their sons to our cai’e.” The same has often been said, and with much more reason, of schoolmasters ; but in proportion as that profession becomes oi'ganised the restiiction tends to disappear', and parents do not seem unwilling to submit to the change. Nor does the experience of Merton College and of Ti'inity Hall, Cambridge, prove tliat a college with a lay Head lacks the confidence of parents. As a matter of fiict, the clerical aspect is not that under which the head of a college is commonly i-egai ded by his undergraduates or by his fellows. To the former he is the embodiment of college authority and order, to the latter he is the chairman of college meeting, the chief manager of college business, and to a certain extent the dispenser of ])atronage. It is surely impossible to suppose that any or all of these offices could rrot be done at least as well by a layman as by a clei'gyman. Again, the number of lay fellows has been immensely enlarged of late years, and not even the strongest advocates of church claims would wish or hope to diminish their number materially. To confine the Headship to the clergy, then, would be to limit the field of selection flir more narrowly than it was limited before 1854 ; and as it is not denied that (as a rule) clerical fellows are intellectually not quite the equals of lay fellows, the lay fellows would find themselves presided over by a man chosen (as a rule) from their intellectual inferiors. This surely would irot tend to promote the harmonious working of the college. Again, to throw open the Headships to laymen would evidently act as an encouragement to the best men to stay up and take college work, instead of going off to other professions. But these considerations are so obvious, and have now become so much a matter of commonplace, that I refrain from dwelling upon them. B. An argument has lately been much used in fiivour of clerical fello'wships by some of those who are not usually found sup)porting the claims of the church ; viz., that they tend to produce a class of men given to research. If the fact could be proved, the argument ought to have great weight ; but I do not think that it can. Those who use the argument see with alarm the constant draltino- o o of our young fellows into the active professions, and look back with regret upon the time when the career of an Oxford fellow was one of learned leisure. But what did this learned leisure produce ? We know what Gibbon thought of it and of those who enjoyed it, and though it is the fashion to say that Gibbon overstated his case against the fellows of Magdalen, it is not easy to prove him so very wrong. Can any one point to a single Oxford edition of a classic of high excellence made during the 18th century? We may point, it is true, to Warton’s “ History of Engli.'-'h Poetry;” and Adam Smith’s “ Wealth of Nations” has sometimes been claimed as an Oxford book. Those, however, are but little as the fruit of a century; and then the “Wealth of Nation.s,” however much Oxford leisure may have contributed to it, was not the work of a clergyman. The connexion between clerical fellowships and research is, in fact, a dream of the research party ; a sort of forlorn hope with which they would meet the popular indifference to their cause; but it has no ground either in ]>ast or contemporary history'-, as it certainly has none in reason. A fellow who ]iosse.«ses the student temperament will give himself up to research, whether he is in orders or not ; if he has not that temperament, the fact of his being a clergyman will assuredly not impel him to a life of study. Again, it is .said tlipff to suppress clerical fellowships is an act of sequestration ; in this sense the Act of 1871 was indirectly, and the Act of 1854 directly, an Act of sequestration. AVhen Parlia- ment has once asserted the principle, as it did in 1851, that the universities belong to the nation and not to the church establishment, the further treatment of fellowships and other “ places of duty, trust, and emolument ” is to be decided on grounds of expediency and as a matter of detail. It is said, in the next place, that the clerical fellow performs an office which the layman cannot perform, in “being a visible and permanent link between the church and the university, and bringing “ ministers of the church into contact with the rising generation of gentlemen and professional “ men.” Whether the church has a right to demand that this link shall be pi’eserved at the ex- pense of the country is a question which the country, as represented by the Commi.ssioners, must decide for itself ; but on the second point it may be remarked that ministers of the church will continue to feel that contact so long as the bishops retj^uire or Avish for a uniA^ersity degree in can- diart of the fellows individually or corporately to the visitor. 5. Witti regard to the election of such fellows, we are met by the anomaly that a society by its constitution nonconformist is entrusted witli the election of officers to be engaged in religious duties as regulated by the Church of England. On the one hand, the claims of the society to elect its own members into its own body cannot properly, in nry judgment, be questioned ; on the other, some security is x’equisite that persons best qualified for their work should be elected. I would suggest that both these conditions might in some degree be reconciled : if the examination were conducted by a Board consisting of the clerical fellows or fellows being communicants of the Church of England, assisted, if desirable, as is the custom already under certain contingencies, by competent examiners in the university, the subject matter of theology being made a part of the examination ; or if the powers which exist now to elect an eminent person without examination Avere extended so as to include theology, the election itself being reserved, as it is in all cases now, for the college in its entirety. 6. The conditions of tenure of such fellowships should follow those of the others, terminable and renewable in the same degree ; in fact I would wish to see such felloAVS occupying a position neither more nor less privileged than any other members of the governing body. 7. With regard to ihe question Avhether the Head should be in holy orders, I believe that it would be better to retain that condition where it already exists ; but where the office has been open for many generations, as in the case of my own college, considering the secular character of the society as a whole, I do not think there would be sufficient security for an intelligent and unbiassed election to make the departure from the existing practice preferable. y 3 174 8, It sliould perliaps be borne in mind that the qualifications of chaplains and preachers are not necessai ily identical, and that this fact should be taken account of when an election ot a clerical fellow takes place. It would, however, be sufficient if the clerical fellows, together with the board of examiners, would advise the college as occasion required on this matter. I have, &c. G. Noel Fbeeling, Fellow and Chaplain of Merton College. FROM THE REVEREND C. E. HAMMOND, EXETER COLLEGE. 6, Park Villas, Oxford, My Lords and Gentlemen, November 1878. I TAKE the liberty of offering a few remarks upon the first two of the questions (dated May 1878) addressed by you to the members of governing bodies of colleges. Although no longer a fellow, I am still on the teaching staff of Exeter College ; and as, during the 17 years past that I have been in holy orders, I have taken an active share both in the religious instruction and in the religious services of the college, I may perhaps venture to claim some experience on these points. In the first place, then, I would venture to urge very strongly that if provision for religious in- struction and for the religious services is really to be made effectually, and in the best way, the persons who are to give the instruction and conduct the services should be on an equality of right and authority in the college with the rest of the tutors. They should be members of the governing- body. In a word, they should be “ clerical fellows.” The exigencies of the case caimot be adequately met by appointing merely chaplains for the chapel services, and lecturers for the instruction. I use the terms “ chaplain ” and “ lecturer,” as they are commonly understood here, to designate persons, not of the governing body, but receiving a salary for performing certain specified duties — services or lectures, as the case may be. And I venture to say that the appointment of persons in these capa- cities does not provide adequately or effectually for the required duties. One reason of this is, that services and lectures do not exhaust the work that has to be done. Tliere is yet one very important, sometimes a difficult and delicate, branch of the work unprovided for. Means ovight to be afforded to those imdergraduates, who may need it, of gaining the help that consultation with an experienced adviser can give them. Young men are here in Oxford for a long time together, at a very critical period of their lives, plunged in a new world of physical and intel- lectual excitement, away from their own home advisers. Many of them are soon involved in moral, religious, spiritual difficulties ; and, as a matter of fact, they do come for help and advice to those from whom they think they will get it, to a degree that few would realise who did not actually know the fiicts. So keenly is the need of this help felt, that men will go to persons outside their college if they do not find within its walls the sympathy they crave. This only shows the impera- tiveness of the demand, yet surely colleges, if they are in earnest, should recognise here a definite need, which may fairl}^ be met under the head of “ religious instruction.” Yet it is not a duty belonging either to chaplain or lecturer, as such. The duties of both these officials are fulfilled Avheu they leave respectively the chapel and the lecture room. They may be wholly unconnected with the college in any other way. Nor is it to the purpose to say that, if they are fitted for the task, the men will have recourse to them in this further capacity ; and if they are themselves in earnest, they will take care to give the necessary opportunities to the men. That may be so ; but we are speaking now not of what individuals may do voluntarily, but of what provision the colleges ought to make for certain needs. But supposing a different estimate were taken hereafter of the duties of a chaplain, and this, which we have been speaking of, came to be considered as part of his regular work, and he were elected accordingly, he would yet labour (I venture to think) under two disadvantages. 1st. He would not be independent. Being only a paid servant of the governing body, if he became in any way dis- pleasing to a majority of them he might be at once displaced, a condition which might vei-y con- ceivably affect his freedom of action and his usefulness. 2nd. Nor again would he have the advan- tao-e of hearing and discussing authoritatively, in college or tutors’ meetings, the moral and intellectual characters of the men, nor of having a voice in deciding matters affecting their interest. It is no disparagement to a layman to say that he cannot fulfil some of the duties to which I have alluded. Whatever be his earnestness, piety, and intellectual gifts, he has not the special grace of ordination, and I think too that, as a general rule, men would more naturally and instinctively have recourse to the help and advice of a clergyman than to that of a layman. These considerations all tend to the conclusion that the really best mode of providing for religious instruction and services is by means of clerical fellowships. Of course these would be bond fide. 1 mean that the persons to hold them should be elected with a definite view to these duties ; both the pastoral and the more purely intellectual being taken into account ; and their responsibility for all parts of the work should be thrown definitely upon them. With a view to this the strictly clerical work should be recognized as part of their duty, and all such fellows should have a duly. apportioned share of such work, at least of such as is public, definitely assigned to them. Hitherto it has often happened that those fellows of a college who chanced to be in holy orders shared among themselves the clerical work of the college, over and above their share of the regular secular work. Under a 175 new scheme this expenditure of time and thought, which does not fall upon the lay fellows, and which is not inconsiderable if there are many services and sermons to be provided for, would be taken into account. In the face of an opposition in some quarters to the idea of clerical fellowships at all, it seems not unreasonable to consider the wishes of those who send up their sons to Oxford to be educated. It cannot be doubted (I think) that among these the number of those who desire that there should be a distinct religious element in the education of their children is far in excess of those who arc either indifferent or hostile. It must then in the long run be advantageous to a college to be known to be able to meet this need ; i.e., to supply opportunities of religious teaching and services to those who desire it, while those who do not desire it are left free ; and, if this be done in the best way, by devoting to this object a certain number of fellowships, it will be no hardship, but a real benefit to a college to set them thus apart. Another point which I would firin urge, and which I cannot look upon as unimportant, is that the regulation of the details of the chapel services should not be in the hands of the general college meeting. We have now to face the conceivable possibilit}^ that at some time or other the majority of such a body may be composed of persons alien from or even hostile to the church. Surely it is not Avise to leave to chance the mode of meeting such a possibility. It is not wise to argue that in .such a case the arrangements would be left to tho.se interested in them. It might be .so; but it might not. Experience shows that the professions of a party when in a minority are no guide to their practice when they get into power. But anyhow, a college meeting is not a fit body to regulate such details. It would be well then to make some provision. Whether it would be best to leave it to the Head of the college alone, or to the Head in conjunction with the clerical fellows, I am not prepared to say. Probably the former, if he be in holy orders. But as he would probably not act Avithout consulting the othens, it Avould make but little difference. With regard to question 2, I cannot but think it desirable that the qualification of holy orders should continue to be necessary for the Headship of the college, in order that he may take his share in the religious services and instruction, taking these duties in the wider sense which I have endeavoured to attach to them, and thus adding to the confidence of those who look to the colleges to supply these essentials. As to the fellowships, supposing that a sufficient proportion of clerical fellowships is set apart to provide for the actual current Avork, Avith some margin for the average of unavoidable vacancies, ill health and so on, I think that the rest may Avell be left unburdened by any such condition. I have, &c. C. E. Hammond, Lecturer, and late Fellow and Tutor of Exeter College. No. 11. University of Oxford Commission, Sir, 27th March, 1879. I AM desired by the University of Oxford Commissioners to ask you to be so good as to furnish a statement of all moneys borrowed by your College under the provisions of the Universities Estates Acts or otherwise ; specifying for what purposes the several sums have been borrowed, and on what terms of interest and of repayment. I am, &c. T. Yere Bayne, To the Bursar of ... . College, Secretary. Oxford. J76 UNIVERSITY OE OXFORD COMMISSION. Answers to Circular No. 11. ALL SOULS COLLEGE. Sums Borrowed by the College to recoup Fines on Unrenewed Leasss. Date of Charge and Nature of Deed. Name of Lender. Sums borrowed, on what Terms, and what Finos to recoup. Remarks. 17th December 1863. Deed of covenant. EarlBeauchamp(then Honble. F. Lygon, M.P.) • ■^4,761/. of which 2,671/. was paid to the College on the execution of the deed and the remaining 2,090/. was to be paid on the 2nd November 1870, and was in fact paid shortly after that date. Interest half yearly at 4/. per cent, from the time the moneys paid to the College, and the entire principal to be repaid on the 2nd November 1880. This money was borrowed to recoup the lines for the years 1863 and 1870. 20th F'ebniarv 1866. The Rev. Samuel 3,000/. with interest at 5/. per cent, per annum, payable half yearly. This sum paid Deed of covenant. George Dudley. and the principal to be repaid on the .5th April 1873. This sum was borrowed to recoup the fines for the year 1865. off out of the Sinking F’und in April 1873. 1 *The interest on this sum is 190/. 8s. lOrf. annually, less property tax. Sums Borrowed by the College for Improvements on their Estates. Date of Charge and Nature of Deed. Name of Lender. Sums borrowed, on wliat Terms, and for what. Purposes. Remarks. 2nd April 1861. Fro- visioual contract and two deeds of ar- rangement. 3rd November 1868. Frovisional contract and deed of arrange- ment. 16th November 1870. Provisional contract and deed of arrange- ment. 29th November 1872. Provisional contract and deed of arrange- ment. 2nd February 187.6. Provisional contract and deed of arrauge- nieut. 15tb March 1877. Order of Inclosure Commissioners. The General Land, 1 Drainage, and Im- 1 provement Coin- I pany. ! The General Laud I Drainage and Im- provement Com- pany. The General Land Drainage and Im- provement Com- pany. The General Land Drainage and Im- provement Com- panv'. The General Land Drainage and Im- provement Com- pany. 6,748/. 13s. Id. to be charged by way of annuity after the rate of 6/. Os. -If/, per cent, per annum and for the period of 31 years, the lands charged being in the pari.shes of I>ewknor, Padbury, Up- church, and Lower Halstow. 8,440/. to be charged by way of annuity after the rate of 6/. Os. Ad. per cent, per annum and for the period of 31 years, the lands charged being in the parishes of Willesden, St. Luke’s, Chelsea, Kingsbury, Hendon, and Edgware, in Middlesex ; Padbury in Rucks ; and Newton Bromswold and Higham Ferrer.s in North- amptonshire. 7,060/. to be charged by way of annuity after the rate of 6/. Os. Ad. per cent, per annum for 31 years, on lands in Middle.sex, vdz., Kensal Green Esttite, Kingsbury Estate, Hyde House Farm, Brockley Hill Farm, and Edg^varebury Farm. 8,701/. lO.v. Of/, to be charged by way of annuity after the rate of 6/. Os. 4f/. per cent, per annum for 31 years, on lands in Kent, Middlesex, Bucks, and Northamptonshire, viz., the parishes of Newchurch, Lj’dd, and Easthridge, in Kent ; Willesden in Middlesex ; Padbury in Bucks ; and Newton Bromswold and Higham Ferrers in Northamptonshire. 7,169/. 7s. Of/, to he charged by way of annuity after the rate of t)l. 16s. 8f/. per cent, per annum for 31 years, on lands in Kent, Leicestershire, and Middlesex, viz., Barrow Hill Farm in Kent; Whadborough Farm in Leicestershire ; and Edgwarebury Farm and Willesden Green Farm in Middlesex. By the order of the Inclosure Commissioners the charge is 418/. .5s. 4f/. annually for 31 years from the date of order payable half yearly. Sums Borrowed by the College for the Purchase of Lessee’s Interests and for Repairs and New Buildings. Date of Charge and Nature of Deed. Name of Lender. Sums borrowed, on what Terms, and for what Purposes. Remarks. 8th March 1864. Mortgage. EarlBeauchamp(then Honble. E. Lygon, M.P.) 1,400/. with interest at 4/. per cent, and the principal to he repaid on the 17th December 1873. This sum was borrowed under the authority of the Copj hold Commissioners to recoup the College the sums the^’ had paid for the purchase of Kirby and Ridgway’s leases of property at Padburj'. This sum was paid off in December 1873. Date of Cliarne and Nature of Deed. Name of Lender. Sums borrowed, on what Terms, and for what Purposes. Remarks. Gth April 18G5. Mort- gage. 2nd April 1872. Mort- gage. 10th Miirch 1873. Further charge. 27th August 187.5. Mortgage. 3rd April 1877. Deed of Covenant. 22nd May 1877. Fiir- tiier chaiige. 11th .lime 1878. Fur- ther change. George Finch Jen- nings, Esq., Kobert Finnis Jennings, Esq., and the Kev. Peter Haimett .Jennings. The Scottish Widows’ Fund and Life As- surance Society. The Scotti.sh Widows’ Fund and Ufe As- surance Society. The Scottish Widows’ Fund and Life As- surance Society. Charles Cavendish Clifford, Esq., M.P. The Scottish Widows’ Fund and Life As- surance Society. The Scottish Widows’ Fund and Tiifc As- surance Society. 3,300/. with interest at 4/. per cent, per annum borrowed and the principal to he repaid on the Gth April 1877. This sum was borrowed under the authority of the Copyhold Commissioners and was paid to Thomas Cobh, Esq., for the purchase of his lease of Googie Hall in Kent. I 5,175/. 10s. 0(/. with intere.st at 4.^/. per cent, repayable by 60 equal half-yearly instalments of principal with interest on the principal for the time being remaining unpaid, as by schedule to deed, the la.st payment being the 25th March 1903. The purpose was for repairing and restoring the College chapel and repairing the roofs and outside buildings of the College, and the loan was secured upon the Scotney Court Estate. ! 1,450/. with interest at 4^/. per cent, repayable by' 58 equal hail- ! y'early instalments of principal, with interest on the prircipal for the time being remaining upaid, as by schedule to deed, the I last payment being 25th March 1902. i The purpose was for further repairs to the Chapel, and the loan was secured upon the Scotney Court Estate. 2,600/. with interest at 4|/. per cent, repayable by GO equal half- ; yearly instalments of principal, with interest on the principal for the time being remaining unpaid, as by schedule to deed, the last payment being 37th August 1905. This loan was required for building a granary, cottage, and stables, on a farm at Willesden, in lease to Messrs. Withers (on which farm the loan is secured), and Messrs. Withers in addition to their ordinary rent are liable to the payments made by the College in respect of the loan up to the end of their lease, viz., the 29th September 1895. 3,000/. with interest at A\l. per cent., and the principal to he rep.aid on the 3rd November 1893. j This sum was borrowed partly for the purpose of paying olf j Messrs. .Jenning.s’ mortgage, and partly in order to extend the I time in which loans were to be paid off by means of an annual ' sinking fund. 840/. with interest at 4|/. per cent, repayable by 50 e !S IN LIEU OF Fines ON Renewals of Leases. 1864 £ 2,200 Stanton and others 20 January 1884 - 20 January 1894 - 4 per cent. 1865 1,800 Jones - - - 22 March 1885 - 22 March 1895 - 1866 3,670 Andrews 24 January 1886 - 24 January 1896 - 1867 2,700 Hoare - - - 27 March 1887 27 March 1897 - 1868 4,200 Stephens 25 March 1882 25 March 1898 - 1869 5,000 Coxe - - - 17 March 1883 - 17 March 1899 - 1870 1,850 Bowlev’s executors 8 March 1884 - 8 March 1900 - 1871 3.400 Goldsmith and another 22 March 1885 - 22 March 1901 - 1872 2,425 Stanton and others 20 March 1886 - 20 March 1902 1873 2,400 Andrews 26 March 1887 - 26 March 1903 1874 3,400 Bowley’s executors 25 March 1 888 - 25 March 1904 1875 7,650 Lawrence and others - 17 March 1889 - 17 March 1905 1876 3,625 Croome and another - 14 June 1886 14 June 1906 1877 1,700 Bradley and another - 21 March 1887 - 21 March 1907 - 1878 2,250 Cripps 27 March 1888 - 27 March 1908 - (2.) Loans for Improvements on Estates. 1877 1,450 George 21 March 1887 - 21 March 1907 - >} 1877 2,500 George 29 September 1887 29 September 1907 (1.) These Loans are to be repaid by the formation of a sinking fund (to commence in each case at the expiration of 21 years from the date of the loan) by the annual investment of one seventh part at least of the sum borrowed. (2, 3, and 4.) These loans are to be repaid by the formation of a sinking fund (to commence in each case at the expira- tion of one year from the date of the loan) by the annual investment of one thirteenth part at least of the sum borrowed. (3.) College Buildings Extension Loans. 1872 10,000 Bower - - 25 September 1882 25 September 1902 }> 1873 10,600 Power - - 29 September 1883 29 September 1903 fJ 1875 5,100 Lawrence and another 17 March 1889 - 17 March 1905 - 1876 4,700 Faussett - - 22 March 1886 22 March 1906 - 1876 4,000 Faussett - - 22 March 1886 - 22 March 1906 * (4.) Chapel Restoration Loan. 1879 I 4,000 I Croomc - - 1 26 March 1893 - I 26 March 1909 * (Note to No. 4). — The Copyhold Commissioners have authorised the raising of a loan to the amount of 10,2.'i0/.,for the restora- tion of the Chapel, but the College at present proposes to borrow only 3,500/. in addition to the sum of 4,000/. already borrowed. 183 50 o ;0 « ft 50 o s ft 5* .S ^ O'® «♦-* i; fctiS '3. CO CJ 43 I o2 O © o> 2^ /M ^ ■^'1 o '^S'5 «g 'O^ 'd ^ O rt 0 c3 3 £s o b ^ o ^ o iiTj-*-* •^2 6D^ •d u s a s<1 2 P '5 o .o g Vi H ira d d a ft Od d b d ju cft a ^2 05 c« cJ -»^ _. o" Cr pH cod£-i 30 <«0 ^ "w « ^J W rH ^ P^ r^ d ?3 05 4)^ i> -s^s 5 4) .0 « ft . 0 7i p ^ d2 ft'®2 si SHg|Hg Idd^dS 0 S- 5- FH ,0 p a.^: p ft 4od"^ «id**^ 10 (D CO . , rH F« C5 00 J>. . *0 00 g a O pc:| O Q 1— < Ph o Q W o P3 Ph O M CC (H H 52; O fta o H h3 O o o <1 = =! o C 0) O o fto S ^ rP c- ci _l “ /-I i:-a u ;k rt as sss 20 5 ^ « s? j- ci S'? Or rH S O to 0 . go O o a| '.g ■3-S’a ,^55 S 2:!'* §§?|sS gdj ftco C3 O.H F 40 o'' S= q « 0*5 bX^rH O -3 ? F flco > 0 : ^ o; o O C3 w s: o • 5:0 6 .0 OiOlO =ti”2:3's ^ o c’o^ a .0 2 Orft T dS'f' ^Oi ill e ° 1:3 ^ Vi si 53 o c3 CO go 3 w 2l« C <= ►«<. 3 P o o 4 . |2; O >i ^ o d o pH O) Cfh^ § ^ cs aj w S'® o ci O ■» i« «o 4 CO 03 05 00 aD ^ CO rH 43 O 00 a B'-.g s >3 ■3 I -? a - o> S O C3 O O 05 go CP jo *> oo .5 S eS^ g:^ o ^ 2 S b .0 2 «a o i>» cS4gd S3 00 ^ O ^ CP rH ..d 05 d gig iss 43 a “5 C3 lo CO »5 22 P‘43^ H *F- 0 F Qj 50 S5 F Id ^ C5 = d 0 S"S t> 43 a? &c Sh ^ “ od s - S'® .2 03 op p p « mp -H3 §w p.1 po P H 00 pj O m a m o bO ® "o a © rP -P> t>^ as bC a ■? o -p> 6 ? o © as 9 '© ^ rrt ® i © o ® i ?H P ©^ ^ s ■^’3 -ps ^ 53 aa S5| ^ § -•' o S 9 a: o a r-l 9 © a "bi So Si as DQ p 2 o3 ^ ?H S 2 S 5=* O OQ <34 w O S C3 r/i ^ Si d) o 'Tj rd -^3 00 CO CM Pi <1 Z 4 184 PEMBROKE COLLEGE. Loans. Sir, March 28, 1879. In reply to your letter of March 27, I have to say that Pembroke College lias not borrowed any money under the provisions of the University Estates Acts or otherwise. I am, &c., The Secretary, J. Mowat, University of Oxford Commission. Bursar. QUEEN’S COLLEGE. Loans. Dear Sir, May 10, 1879. In answer to your letter of March 27, I have now the pleasure of forwarding a statement of all money borrowed by the College under the provisions of the University Estates Act or other- wise. (1.) In June 1857 the sum of 3,615h 8s. *id. was borrowed of the Alliance Life and Fire Assur- ance Office for the purpose of draining certain lands in estates belonging to the College in Marsh and Toot Baldon parishes, Oxfordshire. Interest and principal to be repaid in 50 years, in equal half-yearly instalments of 9 It. 4s. Id. (2.) In June 1861 the sum of 1,572?. 7s. Id. was borrowed of the Equitable Assurance Office for the purpose of draining certain lands in an estate belonging to the College at Moor Green in the parish of South Stoneham, Hampshire. Interest and principal to be repaid in 50 yeai’s in equal half-yearly instalments of 40?. 9s. 6d. (•S.") In July 1869 the sum of 3,588?. was borrowed of JMessrs. W. T. and T. Franklin, of Ascott, near Wallingford, for the purpose of building cottages and farm buildings at Cole Henley, in the parish of Shefford, Berkshire ; of di-aining Priory Farm, Monk Sherborne, Hampshire ; of building- farmyards at Cosham, Newport, Isle of AVight, and at Letcombe Bassett, Berks ; and of building- cottages at Wendlebury, near Bicester, and at Redlands Farm, Sparsholt, near Wantage. Interest is paid' half-yearly at four per cent., and 75?. 10s. is invested annually to form a sinking fund with accumulations at compound interest to pay off the loan at the end of 30 yeai’s. (4.) In November 1870 the sum of 3,824?. was borrowed of Mr. W. Dean for the purpose of draining and challving Warrar Farm, Isle of Wight; of erecting cottages and farm buildings at Moor Green, South Stoneham, at AVendlebury, at Clifton Reynes in Buckinghamshire, and at Baldon ; and of draining lauds at Northwood, Isle of Wight. Interest is paid half-yearly at four per cent., and 80?. is invested annually to form a sinking fund with accumulations at compound interest to pay off the loan at the end of 30 years. (5.) In July 1877 the sum of 4,400?. was borrowed of Mr. Bowles’ tmstees for the purpose of erecting form buildings at Denton, Oxfordshire ; Letcombe Bassett, Berkshire ; Dalton Piercy, Durham ; and Monk Sherborne, Hants ; and of erecting a cottage at Lambourne, Berks. Interest is paid half-yearly at four per cent., and 90?. is invested annually to form a sinking fund with accu- mulations at compound interest to pay off the loan at the end of 30 years. I am, &c. The Secretary, J. R. Magrath, University of Oxford Commission. Provost. ST. JOHN’S COLLEGE. A. — Drainage and Improvement Loans borrowed under the provisions of the Universities and College Estates Acts. Date of Loan. Mortgages. Duration. Amount. Rate of Interest. Annual Repayments. 1862 Law Life Assurance Society- 31 years £ s. d. 4,394 5 11 & s. d. 264 5 0 1867 Guardian „ ,, - )> 4,237 15 2 — 254 16 10 1869 Atlas „ „ - 6,183 7 10 — 371 16 10 The above loans are on the principle of an annuity at G7o. covering the interest and share of principal each year. 1870 F. J. and G. K. Morrell 30 years 1871 R. Sutton . - - - 1872 Ogle’s Trustees - - - 1873 Crawford's Trustees- 1874 >5 » ” » 1876 Bliss’s Trustees - - - 5 > 1877 1878 H. W. Acland Dr. Bright - - - >7 5,000 0 0 4 7o 105 0 0 1 2,050 0 0 o / 1 o 43 0 0 With 2,980 0 0 7o 65 0 0 }- accruing 4,400 0 0 4 7o 92 8 0 1 Dividends 4,090 0 0 4 °L 85 17 10 J 3,680 5,500 0 0 0 0 4 7o 122 183 13 6 4 1 Without 1,950 1,810 0 0 0 0 4 7 to 65 60 0 6 0 8 > accruing Dividends J8o Date of Loan. Mortgage*. Duration . Amount. Rate of Interest. Annual Repayments. B. — Fines Loans. ' £ A'. d. £ s. d. 1870 Casberd Trustees - - 30 years 1,350 0 0 H -io 28 10 0 1871 JJ - - 1,383 0 0 29 8 0 1873 - - 1,600 0 0 „ 34 0 0 With 1874 - - 1,680 0 0 ,, 35 10 0 |> aeeruintr 187(1 ,, , - - 3,619 0 0 55 0 0 Dividends. 1877 •T. C. Clutterbuck - - 2,960 0 0 4 7o 62 5 0 1878 Casberd Trustees - - 1,950 0 0 °k 41 0 0 J C. — Building Loan. None at present. At the last stated General Meeting, the College directed that steps should be taken towards obtaining the leave of the Copyhold Commissioners to borrow a first sum of 7,500l. under this head. This leave has now been obtained. D. — Temporary Loans. A sum of about 10,000/., met partly by anticipation of income, partly by advances from bankers and others as required, at rates varying from 4°/o to 5°/o ^od partly by making use of balances due to trust funds. TRINITY LOANS. Statement of Moneys Borrowed. From whom borrowed, j Rate of Annual interest per cent. liability. I (gross.) £ s. d. Abbots Langley 3i 60 0 0 Trust Fund. Rev. S. W. Wayte, Rev. H. G.Woods, 3i 65 5 0 Trustees of the Advowson Fund. Rev. W. G. Cole, 4i 27 0 0 ex-Fellow. 27 0 0 R. Ellis, Esq., 4i Fellow. Rev. S. W. Wayte, 4i 24 15 0 ex-President. Rev. J. Percival, 44 07 10 0 President. No Caution Fund. interest paid. 261 10 0 Composition for Do. Dues Fund. 267 10 0 529 0 0 1 No. Amount borrowed. Purijoses for which borrowed. Remarks. £ s. d. l.fiOO 0 0 t 1,700 0 0 000 0 0 600 0 0 550 0 0 1,500 0 0 6,500 0 0 6,505 0 0 13,055 0 0 843 14 0 13,898 14 0 To meet deficits resulting from tho loss of lines during the i)roeess of ruuuing out beneficial leases. To supply a sum rcipiired for the purpose of mak- ing an exchange of land at Bradwell and Lang- ford Downs with Mr.Fox in December 1875. The same as No. 1. Do. Do. To purchase a property at Wroxtoii, situated be- tween two properties belonging to the College. For the purpose of dis- annexing the Rectory of Garsington from the Headship of the College. 1. This sum is an accumulation resulting chiefly from the, investment of sums paid for the enfranchise- ment of copyholds in the manor of Abbots Langley which is held jointly by this College and by Sydney Sussex College, Cambridge. The interest is added to the general income of the fund which by an order of the Court of Chancery is devoted to ihe mainte- nance of certain exhibitioners. 2. The Advowson Fund is a trust fund held' for the purpose of buying College livings by two trustees appointed by the College. The management of the trust is not directly subject to the control of the College. The rackrentvalueofthefarmat Bradwell handed over to Mr. Fox was estimated at 420Z. per annum. The farm received in exchange at Lang- ford’s Downs is lot at a rent of G20i., but a reduction of to per cent, has been made on this since Michael- mas 1876. The exchange was sanctioned by the Copyhold Commissioners. 6. It was agreed to make this purchase and to borrow the money for the purpose in Nov. 1878, but a diffi- culty haying arisen about the title to the property, it is possible that the purchase will not be completed, in which case the loan will not be needed. The property in question is situated between two unex- pired copyholds, which will probably fall into the College in the course of the next 10 or 15 years. 7. The caution fund of the College has never been in- vested as a separate capital account. As, however, it might be desir,ahle to do this, and as in any case the College is liable to have to refund this money on the rernoval of the names at present on its books, it seems right to treat it as a sum borrowed. 6,505L was the sum due from the College to its members in December 1878. 8. The mone.v received for composition of College dues amounted in December 1878 to 8437. 14.s. It luus never been invested as a separate account. 9. When in 1871 the College disannexed the rectory of Garsington, an annual sum of 365?. was assigned to the Headship as compensation. To meet tliis annual charge 3,000?. stock was, by a declaration of trust, dated March 7, 1871, applied out of Ford's advow- sqn fund, and to provide for the remainder of the ciiarge a Fellowship was with the consent of the Visitor temporarily suspended. In the meantime the (College) Advowson Fund has been accumu- lating by reinvestment of interest. The capit.al of this fund in January 1879 was 4,800?. (including the 1,700?. borrowed by the College), and the income of the fund for the year ending January 1879?. was 144?. 5s. id. It will be observed that the annual liabilities of ihe College in respect of sums borrowed are nearly covered by the suspension of two Fellowships, to which the visitor of the College has given his sanction from time to time. One Fellowship was suspended in 1867, the other in 1871. The annual income of the two suspended Fellowships taken together has been on an average of the last live 3 ’ears 509Z. The fact that upwards of 3,000^. has been borrowed from trust funds connected with the College reduces considerably the amount of the annual liabilities. be o PIH c3 CA >> 5- ^ ^ ' H > O -2# o a 2 .ss. w p OJ ■T3 « o rt « o S! O w ^ ^ O ^ 9 O ^^3 b _ bo Pi^ a •S ^°'3 2.a.a^ . p g.a g “ .2 p-S ^ p, p.i-1 'cfi ^ ca o QJ r33 tH Vk P, c3 O 2 O a • p.*. .a .a p 2 cw,2 ^ SO p 13 “ - ^ g +j (A O C3 o .a g I ^.a^K g’S O o‘S - ^ C '3 fl Cl, ft o g o 5 •"•5^ bo P ~ ■J “ p ;g a p a p 'B d 9 r9 *S ° p "S ■9 ^ o bo o p 9 ^ » ® a o ft o r9 o "i bo fl o o c^ o ^ o 0) ^ ' ■5^- O .2^ fl a g d a> c3 .d c; - 9 ■£ 9 9 o 9 p c3 ' Q 9 .9 : i; r9 bo & d ^ a S s ^69 00 Ph > CA M ♦3 «4H 9 o> ^ ts a § gPH 2 of P-.2 a .li h-l P — Qj CO >1 w o bM o H la S w H H CA S 60 "B-a 0.2 “S2 p^' r*1 CA Q •a’S I - «*& p-i p -S « p' h”> 2 p g p S ^ p « p P 13 £s _d J .9 .9 9 -fl ^ CA ^ P lA O, s •*- 9 0> •J-f •tr C3 9 O S r 9 Q .'H 9 pq o « W 13 .“ .p ' H April 18, 1879. Charles J. Faulkner (Seoior Bursar). 187 WADHAM COLLEGE. Loans for Improvement of Estates. <1? s. d. 1874. For entirely new buildings on one farm, and for improvements and additional buildings in others - - - - 3,57800 1875. For drainage of Fryerning Hall Farm, Ingatestone, Essex - 524 0 0 1876. For buildings on various farms _ _ _ - 526 10 0 1877. For new buildings and improvements on the Manor Farm, Southrop, Gloucester.shire ----- 733 10 0 ^ 5,362 0 0 All the above sums have been borrowed at four per cent, interest. One thirtieth part of the principal sum is invested in each year, as a sinking fund for re])ayment. The loans to be repaid in 30 years. G. E. Thorley, Wadhain College, March 28, 1879. Bursar. WORCESTER COLLEGE. Sir, April 8, 1879. In reply to your letter dated 27th of March, asking for a statement of all money borrowed by Worcester College, and of the terms, &c., of such loans, I have to repeat and supplement the statement made by me to the Commissioners under date February 11, 1878. 1. In 1870 the College borrowed 3,075?. at 4|- per cent, interest to be repaid in 30 years, the repajonent to commence in 1878. Of this sum 2,000?. was to pay off a former loan contracted for the purchase of an estate at Bicester. The remainder was for expenses of draining and building incurred in 1865. 2. In 1875 the College borrowed 1,230?. for building cottages, at four per cent, interest to be repaid in 30 years, the repayment commencing in 1882. 3. In 1877 the College borrowed 1,000?. at four per cent. intere.st per annum, to be expended, together with a larger sum raised by private subscriptions, in the improvement of the College Hall, the loan to be repaid in 30 years. I have, &c. _ C. Henry Daniel, The Secretary, Bursar. University Commission (Oxford).