%.W: 
 
 ■**.■♦ 
 
 m-4»- 
 
 
 
 ^# 
 
 .•^ o 
 
 t:
 
 L I B RAR.Y 
 
 OF THE 
 
 U N IVLR5ITY 
 
 or 1 LLI NOIS
 
 /
 
 CONFERENCE 
 
 OF. 
 
 POOR LAW GUARDIANS 
 
 HELD AT THE 
 
 IMPERIAL HOTEL, GEEAT MALYEEN, 
 
 MAY 7, 1872. 
 
 Reprinted froiyi the ^^Worcestershire Chronicled 
 
 WOECESTER : 
 
 J. KNIGHT AND CO., THE CROSS.
 
 CONFERENCE 
 
 OF 
 
 POOR LAW GUARDIANS. 
 
 For several years past it lias been the custom 
 of the Chairmen and Vice-chairmen of the Poor Law 
 Unions in the West Midland counties to meet for conference 
 on the practical working of the law they are appointed to 
 administer, and cognate topics, at the Imperial Hotel, 
 Malvern. The movement, however, has ceased to be 
 confined to the West Midland district, and has become 
 part of a very important national measure. The chairmen 
 of the five South-Eastern counties met in the last two 
 years, and propose to meet in July, at Guildford. The 
 three Eastern counties met this year at Ipswich, and 
 the four Northern will meet in August, and active 
 representatives of these conferences testified their good- 
 will to the united action by coming to Malvern. Cheshire, 
 also, has had some meetings, and it is not improbable 
 that the five South-Western counties will meet in the 
 autumn. The Social Science Association (the President 
 of whose Council, G. W. Hastings, Esq.. took an important 
 part in Tuesday's debate,) wLU call together, probably in 
 November, some members of each of these meetings to a 
 central conference in London, where the opinions of, 
 probably, two-thirds of England will be brought together 
 and discussed. We may remark that the movement 
 originated in Worcestershire, and that the chief of the 
 central meeting is G. W. Hastings, Esq., an eminently 
 Worcestershire man. We are happy to find that these 
 gatherings have from the first received the full approval 
 of the Poor Law Board, and that Mr. Stansfeld has 
 frequently expressed his wish that they may continue and 
 increase. The primary object of the conferences is, by 
 a comparison of practice and its results, to discover the 
 best method of exercising the powers with which the 
 Legislature has invested Boards of Guardians, and to 
 procure, as far as possible, uniformity of system in the 
 administration of the law. A secondary object is to 
 promote such reforms as may be deemed desirable. 
 Considerable success has attended the previous gatherings ; 
 and, no doubt, they have tended materially to the pro- 
 pagation of sound views on the important questions which, 
 from time to time, have been discussed. 
 
 The conference for 1872 opened on Monday evening, 
 May 6, when a large number of Guardians assembled at 
 the Imperial. Dinner was served at 7 o'clock p.m., during
 
 which, and afterwards, a lively couversation was kept up 
 on matters iuteresling to the gentlemen present in their 
 capacity as Guardians. Last year a paper was read, with 
 a suljsequeut discussion, on the Monday evening ; but this 
 year it was tliought it would be more profitable to avoid 
 everything like ft)rmality. The order went round that 
 everybody was to attach himself to somebody who had 
 hailed from some other union than that he himself 
 represented, and to talk " shop " and nothing but " shop." 
 This was done, and with very happy results. The evening 
 was spent in an interesting, and no doubt profitable, 
 manner. Now and then a toast was proposed, which 
 served to diversify the proceedings ; but, for the most 
 part, those present were engaged in a free-and-easy 
 representation to their next neighbours of their views on 
 the several subjects of common interest to them all as 
 Guardians of the poor. 
 
 The regular business of the conference, however, 
 commenced on Tuesday morning, shortly after ten 
 o'clock, when the chair was taken by Mr. J. Curtis 
 Haywiird, Chairman of the Gloucester Quarter Sessions, 
 in the absence of the Earl of Lichfield, who was pre- 
 vented attending by the serious illness of his brother, 
 the Hon. Colonel Anson, M.P. There were also present 
 — from Oxfordshire: Mr. Hugh Hammei'sley, Chairman 
 of the Couutv Quarter Sessions : Bicester Union, Rev. 
 W. J. Dry and Eev. J. Falcon ; Oxford City, Rev. E. Glan- 
 viUe, Col. Sackville West, and Mr. T. C. "Wilson ; Thame 
 Messrs. A. H. Brown and — Cozens ; Witney, Rev. 
 R. L. Baker. From Gloucestershire : Bristol, Mr 
 H. Naish ; Cheltenham. Rev. C. B. Trye ; Cirencester 
 Rev. T. Maurice; Cliftnn, Mr. H. W. Green and Rev. F., 
 Burges ; Newent, Rev. B. R. Keeue ; Northleach, Hon, 
 and Rev. G. C. Talbot and Mr. Goodwin Craven ; Stow, 
 Rev. E. F. Witts ; Stroud. Mr. C. Playne ; Tewkesbury, 
 Capt. Ruddle and Mr. J. P. Sargeaunt ; Winchcomb, Rev. 
 R. Wedgewoud ; Wheateuhurst, Mr. G. E. L. Baker. 
 Herefordshire : Bromyard, Rev. W. Hopton, Messrs. J. 
 Barneby-Lutley and W, Barneby ; Herefoid, Messrs. 
 J. Jauucey and — Cam; Kington, Rev. J. Crouch 
 and E. Howarth Greenly ; Ledbury, Rev. J. Buckle. 
 Salop : Atcham, Capt. Severne ; Britlgnorth, Mr. C. J. 
 Cooper ; Church Stretton, Rev. H. O. Wilson ; Cleo- 
 bury, Mr. W. Purton and the Rev. E. Childe ; 
 Madeley, Mr. W. Layton Lowndes, Rev. G. Edmonds, 
 and Mr. W. G. Ni rris ; Lmllow, Rev. G. Corser 
 and Mr. E. Tanner. Statiordshire : Cheadle, Mr. 
 J.W.Phillips; Statiord, Hon. and Rev. A. C. Talbot; 
 Stoke-on-Trent, Messrs. J. Dimmock and — Hileman ; 
 Tamworth, Mr. J. L. Jennings ; West Bromwich, Mr. 
 James Bissell. Warwickshire: Alcester, Rev. C. Dolben; 
 
 
 '*cnr^
 
 Coventry, Messrs. T. Bnshell, — London, and A. C. 
 Tomson ; Foleshill, Mr. J. S. "NYhittem. and the Rev. John 
 Howe. Worcestershire : Bromsgrove, Rev. J. Wylde ; 
 Droitwich, Rev. W. W. Douglas ; Evesham, Rev. G. D. 
 Bourne and Mr. Hornby ; Pershore. Mr. J. AThitaker- 
 Wilson and Mr. Checketts ; Tenbury. Mr. E. Y. "Wlieeler ; 
 Kidderminster, Rev. R. P. Turner and Mr. J. Brinton ; 
 Martley. Rev. J. Pearson, Rev. J. P. Hastings, Rev. H. J. 
 Hastings, and Rev. D. Melville ; Upton-on-Severn, 
 Mr. G. W. Hastings ; Worcester, Messrs. J. Close, 
 R. E. Barnett, J. Longmore, C. Harrison, and C. Pidcock. 
 From other counties : Hants, Mr. Wyndham S. Portal ; 
 Essex. Rev. E. J. Gepp ; Westmoreland, Mr. J. Cropper ; 
 Northampton, Mr. J. Stratton ; Manchester, Messrs. H. 
 Cl)arlewood and T. D. Ryder ; London, Mr. W. Seton Karr 
 (from the Charity Organization). There were also present 
 Mr. F. D. Longe, H.M. Poor Law Inspector, and Mr. T. B. 
 LI. Baker, of Hardwicke Court, who officiated as secretary. 
 Our list does not comprise the names of all the Guardians 
 present, but it is as complete as we are able to make it. 
 The attendance of so manj- gentlemen from remote unions 
 may be taken as an evidence of the increased interest 
 felt in the practical questions brought under review at 
 these conferences. 
 
 OUT-DOOR RELIEF. 
 
 The Chairmax, in opening the proceedings, said it was 
 not necessary for him to make any preliminary remarks. 
 The subjects set down for discussion were well known to 
 them, and they were such as they were prepared to discuss. 
 The first was that of out-door relief, in connection with 
 the minute of the Local Government Board of December 
 for the direction of their inspectors. He had to call ou 
 Mr. Pearson to read a paper on the subject. 
 
 Tbe Rev. John Pearson (Martley), who spoke extem- 
 poraneously, said he offi^red no apology for appearing on 
 that occasion, because he did not at all seek to occupy the 
 position. He had been asked to introduce tlie subject, 
 and his practice was to accede to all reasonable requests 
 made to him. particularly when by so acceding he could 
 forward the transaction of public business. Tlie subject 
 on wbich he was about to enter might be considered 
 threadbare and worn out ; but still he apjirehended it was 
 one of great importance, interest, and vitality, and pro- 
 bably on that day twelvemontlis they would find themselves 
 in the same place again discussing it. Perhaps some 
 gentlemen would object to his use of the word " vitality." 
 They thouglit, probably, that there was very little 
 vitality in it — that out-door relief was a mere caput 
 mortrnim, doomed to die at a very eai-ly date. That was 
 not his opinion. He believed that it must continue, and
 
 his belief was founded on the necessities of the case. He 
 knew that most of those he had the honour of addressing 
 would dissent from that opinion ; but he had no doubt 
 they would express their dissent in a courteous manner. 
 He should be sorry if there were no dissent, for then there 
 would be no discussion, and he was anxious that the 
 question should be fully discussed. In proceeding to state 
 his opinions, he should not enter on the comprehensive 
 subject of the Poor Law, the very existence of which was 
 held to be open to objection. There was much difference 
 of opinion on this fundamental question, some holding 
 that the Poor Law tended to the degradation of the people, 
 while others maintained that it was a guarantee of pro- 
 perty and necessary for the protection of life. Neither 
 would he discuss the improvements that it was believed 
 might be made in the existing system, though this 
 was a very important subject, and one which they 
 might profitably take up at another time. Some time 
 ago he read a speech delivered by a Mr. Corrance at Ipswich 
 on the improvement of the Poor Law ; and that gentleman, 
 he found, was in the happy condition of finding fault with 
 everytbing in the law as it existed, and particularly out- 
 door relief. He would at once pass on to the question 
 more immediately before them. He might date the 
 practice of friving out-door relief at the passing of the -iSrd 
 of Queen Elizabeth. That was a measure forced on the 
 country by the necessity of the times. No doubt it was a wise 
 measure. They were wise and great ministers who advised 
 the Crown in those days, and he believed the Act was one 
 suitable to the time at which it was passed. But the 
 merits of the law afterwards disappeared, and great evils 
 crept into its administration. A real evil under its 
 operation was that wages were to a large degree supple- 
 mented by out-door relief. The Poor Law, so administered, 
 was eating up the vitals of the country. In some districts 
 the poor rates amounted to *20s. in the pound. He did 
 not know whether they were levied on a sufficient 
 assessment, but he knew counties where it was said 
 that the rates amounted to iOs. in the poimd, the 
 full annual value of the property. It was necessary 
 that there should be a change, as otherwise the 
 country would be ruined, its property eaten up, and its 
 people demoralized by the abuses which prevailed. Then 
 came the important Act, 4 and 5 William lY. c. 76, and 
 this brought him to the particular subject on which he 
 had to address them. It was very generally considered 
 that this Act restricted and almost prohibited out-door 
 relief. That was a great mistake indeed. If they looked 
 at the statute they would find that it gave the Poor Law 
 Commissioners powers to make regulations with the 
 respect to the practical administration of the existing
 
 7 
 
 2aws, and likewise, by clause 52, a power of dealing 
 witli the relief of aWe-bodied paupers. That was 
 tlie only power with reference to the persons claiming 
 out-door relief that was given to them. No power 
 of dealing with the out-door relief of the sick and 
 disabled was given. The Commissioners did, accord- 
 ingly, deal with able-bodied paupers, and ordered that 
 no able-bodied person should be relieved but in the 
 workhouse, except in cases when there was sickness in the 
 family. They also ordered that no woman with illegitimate 
 children should be relieved out of the workhouse. 
 The Commissioners issued the regulations, which how- 
 ever, gave no power of refusing out-door relief 
 to the old and disabled. Consequently it did not 
 appear that any very great change took place except with 
 regard to this one point. Then he would ask them to 
 look at the power which was given to magistrates by this 
 Act. The magistrates were authorised to grant relief to 
 infirm paupers, irrespective of the Guardians. This 
 power was very much in disuse. The magistrates were 
 not authorised to fix the amount of relief which should 
 be given — the Guardians might give sixpence or some 
 other sum ; but they had no discretion except as to the 
 amount. The magistrates were also empowered to order 
 medical relief. No doubt out-door relief was continued 
 by the Act of William lY. A gentleman (Mr. Gepp), who 
 addressed them on the previous evening, argued that it 
 was wrong in principle to make out-door relief the rule, 
 and indoor the exception. He (Mr. P.) contended that, 
 under the statute, out-door relief was the rule and in-door 
 the exception. The law said they should not grant out-door 
 relief to one party, and that was the able-bodied pauper. 
 He asked them to look at the Act, and the construction 
 put upon it by the Commissioners, who understood 
 it as well as they did, and pei'haps better, for it 
 was passed in their time. He would tell them an 
 anecdote which would throw fui'ther light on the matter. 
 "When the Act was passed there was much excitement in 
 his neighbourhood, with tumultuous gatherings of people 
 who were ordinarily very quiet and tranquil. These 
 people met to protest against being immured in dungeons 
 and bastilles, which they supposed was the intention of 
 the Act. A clergyman who took a great interest in the 
 matter, attended some of these meetings, and told the 
 people that they had entirely misunderstood the Act — 
 that it was never intended to erect a workliouse in every 
 parish, but to unite parishes for the better administration 
 of the law, and that the power to give out-door relief was 
 continued. He explained that the object of the Act was 
 only to prevent abuses, such as giving relief to able- 
 bodied persons in lieu of the wages they ought to earn.
 
 8 
 
 His representations were successful ; and the Poor Law 
 Commissioners wrote down thanking him for what lie had 
 done, and they also made him a present of bonks 
 for his services in allaying the ferment. Tliat 
 was the commencement of the law, and out-door 
 relief imme liately after it came into operation was 
 administered almost as much as now. He recollected 
 the commencement of this Act of William IV., and that 
 out-door i-elief went on as before, the Commissioners 
 never objecting to the Cxuardians making it the rule and 
 indoor-relief the exception. In tlie union with which he 
 was connected there was a popul.ition of 17,000, and their 
 workhouse was built to accommodate 110. The Commis- 
 sioners sanctioned that building, though they knew very 
 well that there were probably four or five times that 
 number in receipt of relief. There were many very poor 
 people in the union, which was rural throughout. This 
 very plainly showed that it was never considered that the 
 great mass of paupers would be put in the workhouse. 
 He thought he had made this sufficiently plain, and that 
 the facts he had stated could not be answered. He had 
 been anxious to put his views on this point clearly before 
 them, understanding, as he did, tliat it was the opinion of 
 many Guardians, and the opinion, apparently, of the 
 Poor Law Board itself, that the Act was in effect 
 prohibitory of out-door relief, except in exceptional 
 cases. Having seen that the fact was quite otherwise, 
 the great question next arose, to what extent and 
 in what way should they exercise the discretion with 
 which they were vested. No doubt the system was 
 carried out very differently in detail in different 
 "anions. He was addressing gentlemen from various 
 parts of the countiy, some from unions where the 
 wages of the labouring class were 9s. a week, and others 
 from unions where they were los. In some counties they 
 were more than that. He was addressing one gentleman 
 from Manchester where a labourer could obtain as much 
 as 25s. or 30s. a week — he did not know exactly how 
 much, but about three times what a labourer could get in 
 his locality. No doubt, under these circumstances, there 
 was a difference in different unions ; but, notwithstanding 
 the diversity of detail, they might come to a certain 
 uniformity of principle, which he agreed was very desir- 
 able. He would now give his own opinions on the 
 practical questions which arose in the administration of 
 relief. He was called upon to act as a Guardian nearly as 
 soon as the Poor Law was passed, and therefore he had had 
 plenty of experience. He would first state what in his 
 opinion should be done before granting out-door relief at 
 all. Every case should be minutely investigated. They 
 ought to get relieving officers who were faithful,
 
 honest, intelligent men, devoted to business, and 
 who gave the whole of their time to their 
 work. (Hear, hear.) The relieving officer, before 
 he laid any case before his Board, shnnld apprise 
 himself of every single particular connected with it, and 
 lay these particulars before the Board. He should 
 ascertain what was the character of the man, the number 
 and ages of his children, in what way the family was 
 brought up, whether the house was kept in an orderly and 
 tidy manner, and see if tlie garden was kept properly. 
 He should be able to state what was the mans wages, who 
 he was working foi', and whether any endeavours had 
 been made by him to provide against a day of calamity by 
 laying by money or juininct a club. The relieving otficer 
 should acquaint his Board with all these particulars, and 
 the Board, when apprised of these facts, would be better 
 able to decide to what extent they should administer out- 
 door, and to what extent in-door, relief. He was. perhaps, 
 to some extent guided by the indigent circTimstauces of 
 the poor among whom he dwelt, but he asked them to 
 suppose the case of a man witli four or five children, some 
 had six or seven, a decent man, a man respecting whom 
 the relieving officer answered favourably, and he said that 
 was a case for out-door relief. "What should they give 
 him ? He would give him within a shilling or two of 
 what his wages had been, which was as little as he could 
 live upon when taken ill and unable to work. He next 
 came to an important question, which was as to the power 
 or ability of any member of his family to maintain him. 
 (Hear, hear.) No doubt there were not sufficient enquiries 
 made as to this. He would take care that a son or a 
 daughter able to maintain a parent should do so, pai'- 
 ticularly a son. (A Guardian : You cant call on a married 
 daughter.) He meant a daughter in a place, and eaiming 
 good wages. He would thus enforce upon them a 
 practical illustration of the command : " Honoiir thy 
 father and thy mother." He believed they could not 
 enforce in too obligatory a manner on evei'y child, and 
 every person by law bound to provide for a person 
 reduced to the necessity of applying for relief compliance 
 with their duty in this respect. He next came to the 
 widow with a family. It was a common idea among 
 Guardians that it was best to take some of the children 
 into the workhouse, and make the widow maintain herself 
 and the rest. Suppose a widow were unwilling to go with 
 her family into the workhouse, he would not add to the 
 loss she had already sustained — the greatest loss she 
 could sustain, if he had been a good husband — the 
 deprivation of her children. He thought himself that 
 a more cruel and harsh thing they could not do. 
 (.\pplause.) He would allow her out-door relief —
 
 10 
 
 say Is. 9d. a week for eacli child. It was said the children 
 would not be educated unless they were taken into the 
 workhouse, but education was now to be provided for every 
 child, so that there was nothing in that argument. He 
 looked at the feeling of the widow herself, and he said it 
 would be a most harsh thing, just when she had sustained 
 a great loss, to deprive her of her every joy. They were 
 enjoined by Scripture to visit the fatherless and the 
 widow in their attiiction. He had been told by some that 
 religion and the Poor Law had nothing to do with each 
 other. He did not agree with that sentiment. Religion 
 might enter into the dry details of any subject, particu- 
 larly one dealing with the facts of family life. He knew 
 that they ought not to squander the money of the rate- 
 payers. They should not be performing their duty in a 
 conscientious manner if they did. But, as far as was 
 consistent with their duty to the ratepayer, they ought to 
 show kindness and sympathy for the poor. "Where a 
 respectable and tidy woman applied for relief he should 
 make the same order as in the case of a man with a 
 family. Then came the question with regard to old 
 and infirm people. "What should he do with these? 
 "Undoubtedly he should not order them into the work- 
 house ; but if respectable, he would give them enough 
 to subsist upon in the form of out-door relief. 
 Don't, he said, take to the workhouse, to separate 
 them, an aged couple who have lived together ever 
 since they arrived at years of maturity. It was a 
 cruel view to take of it that relief should be refused in 
 such cases except in the workhouse. "With regard to 
 single old people ; if they had a comfortable place to 
 reside in, he should also give them out-door relief. There 
 was another — that of a person living out of the union. 
 As a general principle he should lay it down that they 
 should not give relief out of the union. They could not 
 superintend such cases ; and they might, in fact, be giving 
 relief to dead people. But there were exceptions to all 
 rules. Suppose an old woman who had a daughter outside 
 the boundaries of his union, and suppose her happiness 
 depended on her living with that daughter, he would break 
 through the rule, and allow her to live with her daughter. 
 There was another class of cases with which they had 
 occasion moi-e frequently to deal — he meant women 
 deserted by their husbands. He should order them into 
 the workhouse, and he should do so on the sormdest 
 principles. Very often there was collusion between 
 husband and wife. A husband would feel great 
 relief in leaving if he knew that his wife and family 
 would obtain out-door relief ; and the wife would not 
 have the same inducement to make a comfortable 
 home for her husband. He should make the same
 
 11 
 
 observation in regard to cases where men were sent 
 to prison for felonies. There were other cases to which 
 lie might have alluded, but he should be too long if he 
 attempted to do so. They had had seven or eight Acts of 
 Parliament since the 4th and 5th William IV. One of 
 these was an Act of great importance, and one which 
 many Guardians considered had increased out-door relief 
 and the consequent strain upon their resources — he meant 
 the Union Chargeability Bill. He did not himself think 
 that in well-regulated Boards of Guardians it had been 
 found to have had any great eflect in increasing the 
 expenditure. There were always the chairman, vice- 
 chairman, and other persons interested in carrying on the 
 business to take care that the Poor Law relief was properly 
 regulated, and to see whether the charges should fall on 
 the different parishes or the unions at large. He knew that 
 in some unions the chargeability of A had been doubled, 
 while in the case of B one-half had been taken away ; but 
 he did not know whether the rating had not previously 
 been unfair — whether the one parish was not justly 
 relieved, while the other was only bearing the 
 burthen it ought to have borne from the begin- 
 ning. He thought the Union Chargeability Act a 
 very fair and just measure. He heard the chairman's 
 reference to the minute of the Local Government Board, 
 and that his remarks were to be founded on that minute. 
 He had read the minute with very great attention, but he 
 had not many remarks to offer upon it. It set out by 
 stating that it had been written in consequence of the 
 great increase which within the last few years had taken 
 place in the amount of out-relief, and that special 
 inquiries had been instituted in certain counties. The 
 minute went on to say that " many causes have doubtless 
 contributed to the increase in out-door relief which has 
 taken place ; but the Board believe, from the information 
 before them, that it is not to any considerable extent 
 attributable to defects in the law or orders which regulate 
 out-door relief. He (Mr. P.) perfectly agreed with that. 
 The ratio per cent, of out-door paupers to population in 
 1861 was 3"8, while in 1870 it was 4"0 ; and the out-door 
 relief in 1861 amounted to £3,012,251., while in 1870 it 
 had increased to £3,633,051. That, no doubt, was a large 
 increase. The Board went on to state, as the I'esult of 
 their inquiries, that out-door relief was in many cases 
 given too readily, and in cases where it would be more 
 judicious to apply the workhouse test. It did not 
 follow that because out-door relief increased there 
 was laxity in the administration. But no doubt, 
 there were numerous applications for out-door relief 
 that ought to be refused, and a very singular illus- 
 tration of this ^as given in the minute. "In the
 
 12 
 
 Ameraham Union, in Buckingliamsliire, during the winter 
 of 1869, 212 persons ajipliecl for relief, all of whom 
 received orders for the workhouse, wliie-h not one of the 
 applicants, however, entered." That was a strong fact. 
 But some of the facts stated were still more extraordinary. 
 It was stilted, for example, that " in the Axminster, 
 Tiverton, and Hoiiiton Unions out of every £100. expended 
 upon the relief of the poor during the year ended at 
 Lady-day, 1869, £85. in the Axminster Union £92. in the 
 Tiverton Union, and £93. in the Honiton Union were 
 spent upon out-door relief." That was a very remarkable, 
 and indeed incredible, statement ; for nothing would 
 appear to have been left for the payment of officers and 
 other expenses. It might have been so, but it appeared 
 to him incredible. Mr. Pearson here took up a series of 
 stiggested rules drawn up by Mr. Longe, H.M. Inspector 
 for this district, printed copies of whicli were distributed 
 among the Giiardians present at the conference, and was 
 pi'oceeding to criticise them seriatim in accordance with 
 the opinions he had previously expressed, when the 
 cbairman reminded him that time was on the wing, and 
 he thereupon drew his remarks to a conclusion. Remark- 
 ing on rule 5, he observed that medical extras were a great 
 burthen on the funds of unions. In his union they had iive 
 medical officers, four of whom ordered extras moderately, 
 and the fifth most imnaoderately. No doubt the saying 
 was true that good living was better than bad physic ; but 
 he held that the Guardians should have more control over 
 the medical men, though he would not use it tyrannically. 
 A mi^dical officer could not be discharged without the 
 sanction of the Local Government Board ; and he said, 
 with gi'eat deference to the Board, that every Board of 
 Guardians knew their own interests better than any 
 central Board could do. (Hear, hear.) He would just 
 make one further remark with reference to the minute of 
 the Local; Government Board. It was directed agninst 
 the increase of out-door relief. In the union with which 
 he was connected, so far from the out-door relief having 
 increased it was less now than it ivas thii'ty years ago. 
 Thirty years ago it was 8id. in the pound, and now it was 
 7^d., so that, instead of an increase, there was a decrease. 
 In conclusion, he would sny tliat he had had ph'asure in 
 addressing them that day. He should have had greater 
 pleasure in having side by side with him the gentleman 
 (Sir Henry Laml)ert) who presided two years at their 
 confei'ences, and who was able to bring a very copious and 
 exact knowledge to bear on every subject. He hoped that 
 another year they would have him again amongst them and 
 in better health. (Applause.) There must be always very 
 great difference of opinion with regard to the administra- 
 tion of the Poor Law ; and he wa3 afraid they must be
 
 13 
 
 content to'disagree on some subjects. TVliile lie would 
 desire to carry out his vieMS in an energetic way. he would 
 still hold in high estimation the opinions of others, and 
 extend to them the same indulgence that he claimed for 
 himself. (Applause.) 
 
 Before sitting down the rev. gentleman, who had spoken 
 somewhere about an hour, ci'eated some amusement by 
 suggesting that the subsequent speakers should be timed 
 to ten minutes. Mr. Pearson joined very heartily in the 
 laugh which greeted his suggestion. 
 
 The Chairman said he was sure they were all very 
 much obliged to Mr. Pearson for the very copious way in 
 which he had introduced the subject, and not the less so 
 because he had promulgated many sentiments that might 
 provoke discussion. As they had several subjects to 
 discuss, and there were many gentlemen who might wish 
 to speak, it was very desirable if sp)eakers could compress 
 their remarks into ten minutes, and he would suggest that 
 on this question of out-door relief they should restrict 
 themselves to the practical points set forth in the minutes 
 of the Local Government Board. 
 
 There was some pause after^the chairman resumed his 
 seat, that was broken 1 y 
 
 Mr. T. B. LI. Baker, who said he had not intended to 
 trouble the meeting with his own remarks. As most 
 people there were well aware. Poor Law work was not his 
 regular and usual work. StUl, he had thought a good 
 deal on this question of out-door relief, beiug practiially 
 led to it many years ago. He remembered closely an 
 instance in point. His father came into the possession 
 of a property, and found the rates nominally 27s. in the 
 pound, but on the actual value of the land 18s. In a 
 very short time, by the simple system of in-door relief, 
 carefully and properly applied to those persons who 
 requiredat most, the rates were reduced to about 6s. in 
 the pound. (Applause.) At that time this amount of 
 ratal was thought remarkably low and easy. The memory 
 of this fact had made him think very considerably on this 
 subject of out-door^ relief. "While he fully felt that out- 
 doiir relief ought to be reduced below what it was now, 
 he wished that they could keep more thoroughly before the 
 world that their reason was not the lowering of the rates 
 but the raising of the poor man. (Applause.) They 
 were all rather apt to feel that this should be taken for 
 gi'anted — to say : " Yes, we know that is our aim ; there 
 is no need to talk about it."' But he held there was need 
 to talk about it. and to talk about it freely — fm" this one 
 reason that outside people might understand what their 
 principles and wishes were, which they did not unless 
 they kept them before themselves and, in their own minds. 
 In the case to which he had alluded, the parish of Uley,
 
 14 
 
 the rates were reduced by two-thirds in a very short tiina 
 — in, he thought, about two years. But he did not hold 
 that to be by any means the principal advantage gained. 
 When they began the work there was greater misery in 
 the parish than ever he saw in his life ; but by the end of 
 the time, when they had reduced the rates to 6s. in the 
 pound, the people were comparatively well off — much 
 poverty still, but not the abject misery of former days. 
 The great point was to be hard upon the poor man who 
 might have laid by something and had not done it — not to 
 be hard upon him as a punishment because he had not 
 done it, but because of the influence on others in inducing 
 them to lay by money, and in making them better men. 
 He would like to see the practice established in eveiy 
 union where a poor man applied for relief of only 
 giving relief for a week till they enquired into their 
 case. He would make it known that an applicant 
 must be prepared to tell them where he was ten, 
 eight, nine years ago — what was his family — what 
 his means were of making provision for the future. He 
 would then wish the Guardians to say — "Now you. A., 
 were on equal terms as to wages with B., but he had 
 three more children than you, so you could have laid 
 by three shillings a week and yet have been as well oiF 
 as he. We must consider for another week whether 
 we shall allow you out-door relief or no." At the end of 
 the week, when that man reappeared, the Guardians 
 would probably say " You might have laid by money ; but 
 ten years ago nothing was said to you about it, and we 
 will therefore give you relief. But we will not do it in 
 similar cases two or three years hence, and ten years after 
 we will be a great deal harder." This would make 
 the new system gradually talked of and understood, yet 
 without inflicting any real hardship, and would tend to 
 impress upon all that no man in the future would obtain 
 out-door relief unless he had laid by money while he was 
 in health and able to do so. (Applause.) 
 
 The Rev. E. F. Gepp (Dimmow Union. Essex) said he 
 felt himself in a position of some difficulty on that occa- 
 sion. In the first place he came down on the kind invita- 
 tion of Mr. Baker more with the intention of being a 
 listener than a speaker ; but he had been forced on his legs 
 by some remarks made by Mr. Pearson, who had pointedly, 
 but most courteously, alluded to him. A further 
 difficulty was that Mr. Pearson and he started from 
 different points on a matter of principle which they were 
 not called together to discuss that day. He thought it only 
 right that, differing as he did from Mr. Pearson, he 
 should have an opportunity of stating his views. He had 
 before him a paper which he read at Chelmsford, in which 
 he took his stand on a principle which, after a long discua-
 
 15 
 
 ■ion that lasted the whole of the day, was affirmed in the 
 resolution adopted by the general conference held in London 
 in Nov. last. The resolution was, " That in the opinion 
 of this meeting the number of cases of out-door 
 relief is excessive, and ought to be diminished ; and that 
 in-door I'elief ought to be made the rule, and out- 
 door relief the exception." There he diverged from Mr. 
 Pearson. They might be like the two rivers near that 
 place — coming from different sources, they might perhaps 
 meet at last ; but it was quite clear that at this point they 
 were far apart. He would like to say a few words on the 
 question as to what was the principle laid down in the 
 Poor Law with respect to out-door relief. It was affirmed 
 by some that from the first it was intended that out-door 
 relief should be the exception. At Chelmsford he stated 
 that he imagined this was the case. He found, from 
 Archbold's book on the Poor Law, that there was an Act 
 of the 9th year of George I. enacting that if any poor person 
 shall refuse to be lodged in the workhouse of his parish he 
 shall have his name put out of the book and shall not be 
 entitled to relief. It appeared that that Act did not work 
 very favourably, and in the 36th year of George III. an 
 Act was passed authorising any two justices to order relief 
 for a period not exceeding one month, and in the 55th year 
 of George III. another Act extended the time to six 
 months. To that Act he attributed the lamentable 
 state of things alluded to by Mr. Pearson, which was 
 sought to be amended by the 4th and 6th of 
 "William IV., which repealed the provisions in the 
 Acts of Geo. III. giving these powers to the justices. 
 His view was that they then practically reverted to the 
 principle of the Act of Queen Elizabeth— that on which 
 the Local Government Board now took their stand ; with 
 the exception that the justices were empowered to order 
 relief to the aged and sick, without, however, any power 
 to state the amount. He maintained that the principle of 
 the Act of Will. IV. was that out-door relief should only 
 be granted in exceptional cases ; and that it was because 
 the Poor Law Commissioners of the day taking that view 
 of it that they issued their prohibitory order that no able- 
 bodied pauper was to be relieved save in the workhouses, 
 with certain specified exceptions. Having adverted to the 
 increase in the amount of out-door relief, as shown by 
 the minute of the Local Government Board, Mr. Gepp 
 went on to say that it gave rise to a very great evil, being^ 
 in fact calculated upon as a supplement to wages. If a 
 man had enough for his labour he ought not to come upon 
 the rates. Looking at the formidable difficulty that had 
 just presented itself, the strike of the agricultural 
 labourers, which he could not help thinking would be suc- 
 cessful, he confessed that he was not dismayed. If wage^-
 
 IC 
 
 increased there would not be the reason that now existed 
 for coming for relief. He really did not know, occupying 
 the position he did as a stranger among tliem that he 
 ouglit to detain them longer, and he would only say that 
 at their meeting in Chelmsford Mr. FaruaU was kind 
 enough to attend, and he submitted the resolution of the 
 Local Govenimeut Board of December last : they dis- 
 cussed the several points one by one, and adopted them 
 all with slight alterations. They had them afterwards 
 printed on cards and sent to the several Boards of 
 Guardians in the county. He would listen with attention 
 to what was said at that conference, in order that he might 
 be able to tell the Guardians in Essex how far they were 
 agreed and how far they disagreed. At all events, he 
 was sure of this that they would be alike in administering 
 the law in a fair and proper spirit. (Applause.) 
 
 The Hon. and Kev. A. C. Talbot (Stafford) said he 
 represented a union of a mixed character — part of the 
 ■working population being agriculturists and part mechanics. 
 He had coiue to the meeting with the impression that, if 
 they were to do any practical good, they must give their 
 attention not so much to the law as the facts. The first 
 fact with which they had to deal was that there was out- 
 do<ir and there was in-door relief. The next fact was, 
 out-door relief had increased, and ought to be diminished. 
 The question was how this was to be done. They had in 
 their county an offshoot of the labourers' association, and 
 the wages amounted to from lis. to 15s. a week. The 
 circumstances were different, of course, in different 
 districts. He saw a gentleman present who was chairman 
 of tlie Stoke Union. That gentleman's position was very 
 different from that of Mr. Pearson. A friend of his in 
 Stoke Union had o.OUU labourers, and he paid them 
 £8,0U0. last week. Of these 5,000 one-half were under "21 
 years of age. These people were much more able to save 
 money than the poor in 5lr. Pearsons Union ; and the 
 chairman of the Stoke Uniou was in a better position to 
 apply the Act stringently than the chairman of the Martley 
 Union. Bat the difficulties were great. The friend of 
 whom he had spoken had told him that he was obliged 
 to take a man before the magistrates for deserting his 
 employment : the cost of the proceedings was 7s., and 
 the man could not pay it, though he had been earning 35s. 
 a week. The only thing to guide them was to make use 
 of their common-sense as to whether and how far out- 
 door relief should be granted. There was a practical 
 question on which he wished to ask their opinion. It 
 was as to medical relief, and the extras medical men gave. 
 In reading the last report of the Local Government Board 
 he found that one of the inspectors said he thought it 
 ought to be imperative on Boards of Guardians to give cod
 
 17 
 
 liver oil and quinine, and not put the exjjense of providing 
 these on the medical men. The medical officers did, 
 certainly, exceed very much in giving extras. He asked one 
 of them in his union, " Suppose we give these medicines, 
 would it make any ditierence in the brandy and 
 meat you order ? " He said it would affect the quantity 
 of ejttras very considerably. He (the speaker) said they 
 would try it, and his Board had agreed to take the expense 
 upon themselves, and he believed the result would 
 be that the exti'as would be very considerably diminished. 
 There were other points he should like to hear discussed. 
 For example the propriety of taking sick people 
 into the workhouse intirmaries. Mr. Pritchard, the 
 able clerk of his union, said they had no power to admit 
 them unless they were paupers— that the clause did not 
 give them the power, but the Local Government Board 
 said it did. Small-pox was ra^iiiij in the district, and 
 they were placed in a gi'eat difficulty, being told, on the 
 one hand, that they could take the persons suffii-ring from 
 this epidemic into the infirmary, and, on the other hand, 
 that they could not. These were practical questions he 
 would like the meeting to discuss. 
 
 Mr. Wyndham S. Portal (Hants) said he wished to 
 place on record at the earliest opportunity his approba- 
 tion of the Local Government Board's minute. He felt 
 certain that it was very much called for, and he thought 
 it had already been of great assistance in checking out- 
 door relief. He believed all of them had found that from 
 one cause or another out-door I'elief was more than they 
 thought quite healthy ; but they did not see how they 
 could check it in a way that would be for the good of the 
 peoi)le at large. The minute would act as a very gi-eat 
 stimulus on many. In Guildford, Eeigate, and other 
 places, the Guardians considered it very carefully, 
 and they issued postei's giving the rules they meant 
 to practise from week to week. He believed the 
 example would be followed in many places. He had 
 no doubt they were still giving too much out-door relief ; 
 but he thought this was reaUy not so much on account of 
 any difterence of opinion on a question of principle. 
 However they might differ in their way of stating what 
 was their duty in this matter, he believed that both the 
 gentleman who gave the opening address and the gentle- 
 man (Mr. Geppj who replied to him would arrive at very 
 much the same conclusion on any given case. It all 
 depended on the minute investigation which ought to 
 precede an order of relief. He did not think that either 
 the widow with more than one child or the aged couple 
 ought to be forced into the house, provided they were 
 sure they were proper persons to receive out-door relief. 
 But the cases of imposition were very nunu-roHS. Since
 
 18 
 
 he was last there, two years ago, he had made a 
 memorandum of every case of this kiml that had come 
 under his notice. The list would be too long to read 
 to them, but he might mention as examples that there 
 was a widow with iloUU. in Consols who ajiplied for out- 
 door relief ; and a man who was the owner of a piece of 
 land which he worked evei-y day in the week except the 
 doctor's visiting day. (Laughter.) He kept a child 
 watching for the doctor, and worked away like a man 
 till he was signalled to stop. That was the sort of thing 
 they had to contend against. Whether it should be 
 out-door or in-door relief should depend on the 
 preliminary investigation. The Bf)ard of Guardians with 
 whicii he was connected directed the relieving officer to 
 put a mark against all new cases that came before them. 
 That fatal 21bs. of leg of mutton was the beginning of 
 many a life of pauperism. (Hear, hear.) Old cases were 
 not so much under their control, but they were very 
 careful to examine into every new case. They turned it 
 back, applied the workhouse task as far as possible, and 
 exerted themselves to the utmost to keep it oft" the list. 
 There was another thing dealt with in the valuable paper 
 put out by their inspector — he meant the question of 
 loans. His Board had very often said to applicants for 
 relief, " We shall give you relief, but it must be by way of 
 loan. There it is ; you may take it or you may leave it ; 
 but understand that if you take it it is a loan." In three 
 out of four cases they did not take it at all. They had 
 found it very profitable to relieve the medical officers of, 
 not only cod liver oil, but more expensive medicines, and 
 cut oft' the extras altogether. They had long ceased to 
 give out-door relief to wives deserted by their husbands, 
 and wives of militiamen up for ti'aining. When he said 
 " long " since, he meant since these valuable conferences 
 commenced. They were careful in their enquiries — did 
 not care how long they sat, and no one could be three 
 months on their books without being the subject of a 
 most minute investigation. (Applause.) 
 
 Mr. J. DiMjiocK (Stoke-on-Trent), in reference to a 
 question alluded to by Mr. Talbot, desired to state that 
 last year small-pox was epidemic in his union, and the 
 Board found itself in a very anomalous i^osition. There 
 were two municipal boroughs within the union, and other 
 places under forms of local government. The Board of 
 Guardians took upon themselves the duty of providing for 
 those stricken by the disease. They built an infirmary 
 for the I'eception of patients. Two or three that had been 
 sent to it afterwards paid for the accommodation. They 
 were now proposing to build a permanent hospital for 
 receiving persons suffering from such diseases — a small 
 one, but capable of being extended by annexes. He
 
 19 
 
 believed that when an epidemic of this kind got into tlie 
 midst of a large population they must stamp it out by 
 removing those who were seized from small houses. 
 
 Mr. Talbot : Can you do it by law ? 
 
 Mr. DiJiiiocK : We are chanciug it. 
 
 Mr. Talbot : You have not had Mr. Koberts with you 
 yet. 
 
 Mr. DiMMOCK : Well, if they were wrong, they must 
 beg the money for it. The people had massed together 
 without any proper sanitary provisions, and the state of 
 his union in this respect showed very clearly the necessity 
 for an etMcient sanitary Act. The Government should 
 face this question, and do away with the divided and 
 concuirent powers vested in the existing local authorities. 
 There was another thing to which he wished to allude. 
 They had for many years found cod liver oil in their 
 uniun ; but there was still a feeling among medical 
 officers that generous diet was the proper thing, a feeling 
 in which the poor in these days, as well as the rich, 
 heartily joined. (Laugliter.) He feared there was a 
 great disposition on the part of Guardians to give in- 
 adequate pay to their medical officers. (Hear.) He 
 would now tell them how they treated the education of 
 out-door paupers. They adopted the provisions of 
 Denisons Act ; and they enquired of every one in receipt 
 of oul-door relief how many children they had between 
 the ages of five and twelve years, and whether any 
 and how many were half-timers. They then offered 
 to give twopence a-week for each child who attended 
 a school under Government inspection. In only 
 four or six instances had there been any failure 
 to attain their object, and in these the out-door 
 relief was stopped. It was afterwards restored, but with 
 a strong admonition. They had made no attempt to 
 transfer this part of their function to the School Board. 
 A very competent authority had advised them that 
 Denison's Act was not repealed by the passing of the 
 Elementary Education Act, and they thought it better to 
 go on as before. He did not know whether the gentleman 
 (Mr. Gepp) who had spoken was not too sanguine in 
 respect to the effect of an advance of wages. In his 
 parish woi'king men were getting very high wages, but it 
 really seemed that the higher the wages the more the 
 destitution. His impression was that more depended on 
 regularity and permanence of income. They were now 
 enjoying the full blaze of prosperity ; but he was afraid 
 the ironworkers, very much like their masters, with 
 increased incomes launched out into an increased 
 expenditure. His own view was that out-door relief 
 should be given under more stringent regulations, and as 
 far as possible by way of loan. Returning to the subject
 
 20 
 
 of the medical offit-ers, he begged to remark that they 
 incurred a very serious responsibility in refusing medical 
 extras. Suppose the patient took a bad turn it would 
 certainly be ascribed to the want of these extras ; and it 
 was a general opinion that when one was sick a little bit 
 of extravagance was pardonable. (Laughter.) 
 
 The Rev. Mr. Gepp explained that what he meant was 
 that when the resources of the agricultural labourers were 
 increased it would be a reason for stringency in the 
 administration of out-door relief. The Rev. E. Glan- 
 viLLE (Oxford) suggested that it would be more profitable 
 than any general discussion if they took up the several 
 points embodied in the rules before them, and came to 
 some conclusion upon them. 
 
 The Rev. C. B. Trye (Cheltenham) said it was of very 
 little importance whether out-relief was regarded as the 
 rule or the exception. They must deal with each case on its 
 merits. With regard to the medical question they had in his 
 union met the difficulty by appointing a dispenser at the 
 workhouse, who supplied not only the medicines, but also 
 the wines and spirits, required throughout the union. 
 There was now only one extra, and he wished they could 
 check that. He referred to the fees for midwifery. The 
 amount of these was enormous. They had one medical 
 officer whose salary was £30., and his extras last year 
 amounted to £150. (This statement was received with 
 expressions of surprise.) There might be a difficulty in 
 some unions in going to the dispensary for medicines ; but 
 most of his union being within the precincts of the town, 
 or not more than a mile from the dispensary, it was not 
 felt with them. His observation had been that those who 
 received the highest wages were those who, as a general 
 rule, were on the parish, and he agreed that it was rather 
 the regularity than the amount that tended to secure 
 independence. He agreed with Mr. Pearson with refe- 
 rence to deserted wives ; but he did not think they could 
 refuse relief because sons or daughters refused to do their 
 duty. If they did this the greatest possible misery would 
 result. He would give what was required, and apply to 
 the magistrates. (Hear, hear.) They gave relief by loan 
 in Cheltenham twenty years ago, but they found such a 
 difficulty in getting the money back that they abandoned 
 the practice. There was one great hardship that had not 
 been touched upon — he alluded to the hardship inflicted 
 by the law of settlement. He would Uke to see the law 
 abolished altogether. 
 
 The Chairman said he was disposed to agree with Mr. 
 Glanville. and suggested that they should now proceed 
 from the general discussion to a consideration of the
 
 •21 
 
 Mr. LoxGE (H.M. Inspector), on the invitation of the 
 Chaii-man, said he had drawn ont a series of practical 
 propositions. He had carefully abstained from putting 
 any name to them, and they would thoroughly understand 
 that they had the sanction of nobody except so far as 
 they coincided with the minute of the Local (Tovernment 
 Board. He drew them up with the view of giving the 
 means of bringing their discussions to a jn-actical point, 
 so that they might go back to their unions with certain 
 distinct views to put in practice. He had attended two of 
 their meetings, and he did notice that there was the 
 greatest possible divergence of opinion, and difference in 
 the tone of mind brought to bear by difierent guardians. 
 There was a general movement towards restricting out-door 
 relief : some gentlemen even contemplated the j)ossibility 
 of doing away with it altogether. "Whether or no they 
 would ever come to that remained to be seen ; and he 
 might observe that when they came to deal with individual 
 cases they often found that those who went furthest for 
 the suppression of out-relief were more liberal in giving 
 it than those who went to work on old-fashioned principles. 
 He proposed to read through the rules, and then go back 
 and discuss any on which there was a difference of 
 opinion. 
 
 This plan was acceded to, but in fact the discussion 
 came ofi' both on the first and second reading. We give 
 the rules, with a brief statement of what was urged for 
 and against those on which diseussions took place, 
 indicating by printing in italics any rules or j)arts of ruh-s 
 that were rejected, and specifying any other alterations 
 made : — 
 
 As TO OCT-RELIEF ox ACCOUNT OF SiCKN'ESS. 
 
 1. That single aV)le-boclied men teiuporarily disabled by 
 sickness or accident should be relieved ouly in the workhouse, 
 or by way of loan. 
 
 2. That the same rule, except as to granting relief by loan, 
 should be applied as much as possible to single able-bodied 
 women, with or without children. 
 
 3. That medical orders should not be given for attendance 
 in midwifery, or otherwise, upon the wife or children of an 
 able-bodied man in regular employment, when the income of 
 the family amounts to 3s. per head per week, except in fever 
 or other extreme cases ; and that relief in money (n"kind should 
 not be given on account of the sickness oi the wife or child of 
 an aide-bodied man when the income of the family amounts 
 to 2s. per head per week, except in extreme cases or upon the 
 recommendation of the medical otficei*, or by way of loan, 
 
 4. That relief to an able-bodied man having a small family, 
 on account of his own sickness, should be by way of loan. 
 
 5. That medical extras should only be supplied by the 
 relieving officer without an order of the Guardians, when 
 recommended by the moilical officer on the day of, or on the 
 day following, a visit to the sick pauper at his or lier liome.
 
 22 
 
 As TO THE Relief of Single, Old, Infirm, or Pebmanentlt 
 Disabled Men or Women. 
 
 6. That out-relief to this class should never exceed 2s. 6d. per 
 meek in amount, except in cases where tJie applicant cannot he 
 removed to the workhouse. Tliat persons requiring extra relief 
 for attendance or clothing, sliould, if possible, be taken into the 
 workhouse. 
 
 7. Tliat the practice of paying persons as nurses for attending 
 on thi;ir relatives is objectionahle. 
 
 8. That the practice of giving periodically clothes or shoes is 
 objectionable. 
 
 As to the Relief of the Wives and Fajhlies of Absent 
 Men, and of Widows with Children. 
 
 9. That out-relief should not be granted on behalf of the 
 wives or children of militiamen, except in case of sickness or 
 by wiiy of loan. 
 
 10. That out-door relief should not be granted to wives and 
 children deserted by the husband, except in special cases. 
 
 11. That proceedings should be always taken by the 
 Guardians for the apprehension of men deserting their wives 
 or children, by the offer of a reward, and otherwise, imme- 
 diately upon the family becoming chargeable. 
 
 12. That out-relief should not be granted to the wives and 
 children of prisoners, except in special cases. 
 
 13. That in the case of large families where relief may be 
 granted, either in or out of the workhouse, it may be sometimes 
 desirable to take some of the children into the workhouse, e.g., 
 when the parent or parents are unable to bring them up properly. 
 
 14. That out-relief should not be granted to able-bodied 
 widows with one child only, after the first six months of their 
 widowhood. 
 
 15. That a large portion of the relief granted out of the 
 workhouse should be iu bread, and tliat the proportion should 
 never be less than one quarter of the wliole amount of relief. 
 
 16. That Guardians should in every case require the children 
 of persons receiving out-relief to attend school, and that it is 
 in many cases desirable for the Guardians to agree to pay the 
 school pence of such children upon the production of a 
 certificate of attendance from the schoolmaster. 
 
 General Rules as to the Administration of Out-relief. 
 
 17. That out-relief should in no case be granted for a longer 
 period than three or six months. 
 
 18. That the relieving officer should be required to make 
 weekly, or, at least, fortnightly visits to nil persons receiving 
 temporary relief on account of sickness, and to visit once a 
 quarter, at least, all persons to whom relief has been granted 
 for a quarter or ftaZ/ a 1/ear. That the relieving officer should 
 keep a diary showing particularly the dates of his visits to the 
 houses of paupers on his out-relief list. 
 
 19. That no grant of out-relief should be made unless the 
 relieving officer has, since the application, visited the home of 
 the applicant, and has recorded the date of such visit in his 
 application and report book. Cases not visited to be relieve 1 
 in kind only by the relieving officer, or by order for the 
 workhouse. 
 
 20. That the relieving officer should be required to ascertain 
 and enter in the proper column of his application and report 
 book, the names of the adult children or other persons liable 
 Id law to contribute to the support of the applicant.
 
 23 
 
 21. That the provisions for the compulsory maintenance of 
 paupers by relatives should be more generally acted upon. 
 
 22. Tiiut au officer or officers should be appoiuted by the 
 Guardians iu every union to collect moneys due from relatives, 
 or from paupers in receipt of relief granted by way of loan. 
 
 23. That at the administration of out-door relief, the relieving 
 officer should stand behind the Chairman, and state each 
 application audibly to the whole Board. 
 
 2-1. That the medical oncers of the union should be requested 
 to be present during t)ie administration of out-relief at one 
 Board meeting at least in each quarter. 
 
 "With reference to advances by way of loan, mentioned in 
 the first four rules, several Guardians asked whether the 
 loans were ever paid back. — The Kev. F. Burges (Clifton) 
 said they were in the habit of advancing money 
 on loan to the wives of seamen, and also to mechanics 
 earning large wages ; and the amounts were generally 
 repayed. If they were not they went before the magi- 
 strates, who had power to deal with the cases summarily. 
 As a rule they did not proceed against labourers. — Mr. T. 
 BusHELL (Coventry) said loans were also given iu Lis 
 union. — The Rev. G. D. Bourne remarked that the 
 practice might be applicable to one union and not to 
 another. — The Chairman, in reply to a question, said 
 there was no doubt loans could be recovered by law. 
 
 Considerable discussion took place on rule 3, as to 
 whether the medical orders and relief alluded to should 
 depend on the income of the family being less than a 
 specific amount. — Mr. Pearson suggested that a man 
 might have exhausted his own funds before he applied 
 for medical relief. — Mr. Longjiore (Wurcesterj objected 
 to any hard and fast line being drawn, pointing out that 
 if there were six children the limit of 3s. would not apply 
 except in cases where the income had been over 24s. a 
 week. He thought each case must be taken as it stood. 
 — Mr. G. W. Hastings (Upton) approved the rule, pointing 
 out that the exceptions presei'ved it Irom being a hard 
 and fast one. — Mr. Gepp said the gv.neral rule iu Essex 
 was to grant an order for the fifth child. 
 
 The first five rules, " as to out-door relief on account of 
 sickness," were passed without alteration. 
 
 Mr. Pearson objected to rule 6 that Guardians should 
 not be restricted to half-a-crown. In his locality a cottage 
 could not be got for less than £7. or £8 — Mr. Jauncy 
 (Hereford) took the same view ; and Mr. Portal suggested 
 that the out-relief should not exceed the cost of in-door- 
 relief. On the vote being taken, the rule was rejected. 
 
 Rules 7 and 8 were adopted. 
 
 Of the rules under the next head 9, 10, and 11 were 
 adopted without i-emark. On 12, Mr. Sargeaunt (Tewkes- 
 bury) observed that in their union they took the wives of 
 prisoners into the house while their husbands were under
 
 24 
 
 remand, but the moment they were convicted the wives 
 were let out and given out-door relief. (Laughter.) The 
 rule was adopted. 
 
 Mr. W. PuRTON, in reference to rule 13, expressed a 
 strong objection to the separation of children from their 
 parents, involving, as he held it did, a great moral danger. 
 — Mr. LoxDON (Coveuti-y) thought they should do every- 
 thing they could to prevent children getting into the 
 workhouse, and strongly commended the practice of 
 boarding out. 
 
 Mr. Lowndes said the effect of the rule would be that 
 many children would not become paupers at all, but 
 would be taken by relatives. But, suppose it were not so, 
 there was a feeling that it was better to give relief to 
 children in schools ; and the separation from parents 
 was only what took place in other ranks of life, children 
 being sent by their parents to schools which were 
 sometimes at a distance. The children would be allowed 
 to see their parents occasionally. 
 
 The Chairman observed that the rule was a very 
 moderate one, and it was ultimately approved. 
 
 Mr. W. Layton Lowndes (Madeleyj moved, on rule 14, 
 the omission of the latter clause from the word " after," 
 and was seconded by Mr. Burges. — Mr. Pearson sub- 
 mitted that it would be a very hard thing when a woman 
 had just lost her husband to order her into the workhouse. 
 — Mr. Burges remarked that that was a time specially fit 
 for the exercise of private charity. — Mr. Close ("Worcester) 
 observed that it very much depended on the circumstances 
 of the place what it was best to do. Li Worcester a 
 woman could earn 8s. or lOs., and they would not think of 
 granting relief to a woman earning 8s. a week. On a 
 division there were 14 for Mr. Lowndes' motion and 12 
 against. The words were accordingly struck out. 
 
 The latter clause of rule 15 was also erased by general 
 consent, and the words " or flour" inserted after "bread.' 
 
 Kule 16 was approved. Mr. Seton Karr asked Mr. 
 Dimmock to state what had been his experience of the 
 working of Denisons Act. — Mr. Deumock replied that it 
 worked very satisfactorily. They were advised that the 
 School Boar.l Act only provided education for those not 
 akeady provided for, and their pauper children were 
 ah-eady provided for. — Mr. Long^iore said they did not 
 in Worcester give the twopences to the parents, but to the 
 managers of the schools the children attended. — Mr. 
 Lo^^'^■DES also spoke to the manner in which the Act was 
 applied in his union. 
 
 On rule 17, Mr. Longmore recommended the relieving 
 officers should be required to furnish the individual 
 Guardians with lists of the out-door cases in their several 
 districts, and that the Guardians should periodically
 
 25 
 
 investigate the cases. This, he said, had been done with 
 good etiects in Worcestei'. The rule was adopted, the 
 words " or six months '" being struck out. 
 
 The words " or half a year " were struck out of rule 
 18, and with that change it was adopted. 
 
 On rule 19, Mr. Talbot asked Mr. Longe how many- 
 cases a relieving officer was in his opinion able to visit. 
 An inspector whom he (Mr. Longe) knew very well said 
 the number should not exceed 240. — Mr. Loxdon was 
 opposed to the union of the duties of relieving officer and 
 vaccination inspector in the same person. — Mr. Gepp said 
 the number of cases depended entirely on the area the 
 relieving officer had to travel. An officer in iiis union 
 brought his book to him (Mr. Gepp) and stated that he 
 had only two days in the week to do his visiting in. He 
 had 34 cases, 19 in one district and 15 in another. For 
 the 19 he had to travel 28 miles, and for the 15 he had to 
 travel 23. — Mr. Burges said thei'e was no economy in 
 giving a relieving officer more than he could thoroughly 
 accomplish. An additional officer would sometimes relieve 
 the rates. — The Chairmix concurred with Mr. Burges in 
 this opinion. — Mr. Loxge intimated that he could not 
 answer Mr. Talbofs question. — The rule was adopted, as 
 were also 20, 21, 22. and 23. 
 
 On rale 24, Mr. Bushell asked whether if a medical officer 
 were not to attend the Board meetings the Local Govern- 
 ment Board would support a Board in discharging him. — 
 Mr. Loxge did not think they would. — Mr. Lowxdes 
 said the medical officer in Poplar Union attended the 
 meetings, and it was a great advantage, as he could at 
 once explain extras — he told the Guardians, for example, 
 that So-and-so would be better in a fortnight when the 
 extras might cease, or in the case of an old person that 
 they must go on for a long time, and had better be added 
 to the relief. — The Rev. D. Melville said it appeared the 
 rule was a mere brutumfulmen. If they could not enforce 
 it they had better not adopt it. They had a cantan- 
 kerous medical officer in Martley who had been requested 
 to attend again and again, but lie had never seen his face. 
 — Mr. Portal suggested that it might be put " invited to 
 be present.'' — Mr. Close said the Worcester medical 
 officers, whenever they were requested, came to the meet- 
 ings of the Board. — On the rule being put, it was rejected 
 almost unanimously. 
 
 There was here an adjoui'nment of half-an-hour for 
 lunch. On resuming 
 
 The Eev. D. Melatlle (Martley) said he was anxious 
 that the conference should not close without some further 
 consideration of the general principle involved in the 
 question, and, if possible, some resolution on that 
 principle. This, he thought, was the more proper
 
 26 
 
 bnsiness of such a congress ; for, while they might agree 
 on some guiding principle, they must allow great latitude 
 in its application in practice. He was the more anxious 
 for such an expression of opinion for, heing a member of 
 the Board ably presided over by his friend Mr. Pearson, 
 who had opened this discussion in a comprehensive 
 speech, he was happy to say that the sentiment, 
 or principle, he had enunciated was not that 
 which animated the whole Board. He would not 
 follow Mr. Pearson through his argument. He thought 
 the conclusion he had gathered from the books 
 was erroneous ; but he swept all that aside. A living ass 
 was hetter than a dead lion ; and on this question they 
 had the interpretation of a living Boai'd. The tendency 
 of the instructions of the Local Government Board was 
 undoubtedly towards the elimination, and not the exten- 
 sion, of out-door relief. His friend, Mr. Barwick Baker, 
 had truly told them that they were afraid of being thought 
 to have the Mammon consideration too much before them ; 
 but Miimmon was not the only god that ruled the world. 
 He was afraid of Gammon, as well as of Mammon. 
 (Laughter.) He was not going to arrogate to himseK that 
 he, more than other men, was governed hy religious 
 principle. The epistle which they read last Sunday 
 told them in what true charity consisted. There was 
 where he joined issue with Mr. Pearson. ^Vhat was 
 true charity ? It did not consist in giving largely, 
 however consistent that might be with their feelings ; 
 but in living and raising others to that Christian standard 
 illustrated in the life of their Lord. He would teach a 
 man to respect himself, and to rise to the dignity of a 
 man. He was for restricting rather than enlarging the 
 copiousness of out-di)or relief. If they wanted to see 
 how that sort of thing operated, they had an example 
 in Jarviss Cbarity, in Herefordshire. He did not 
 know whether there was any one present who knew how 
 that charity was administered. Three parishes partici- 
 pated, and the income was £7,000. a-year. The poor in 
 these parishes received a copious supply of absolutely 
 everything but education. (A Guardian : There are 
 schools.) There were schools now, but he was speaking of 
 what was the state of things a year or two ago. A bai'onet, 
 who was also a clergyman, was obliged to resign his trust, 
 so dissatisfied was he with the results. He might be 
 told that he was arguing from an abuse. It was, he admitted, 
 an extreme example ; but, just as the drunken man who, it 
 was said, teetotal lecturers took about with them to enforce 
 the evils of intemperance, was of use, the illustration he 
 had quoted was useful as showing that copious and 
 indiscriminate relief tended to the degradation of 
 pauperism. He should like the question before them to
 
 27 
 
 be brought to a direct issue ; and he did trust that Mr. 
 Hastings, or somebodj-, would propose a resolution the 
 direct opposite of the opinion expressed in the opening 
 speech of Mr. Pearson. 
 
 A Guardian here handed to Mr. Melville a copy of the 
 resolution adopted at the Conference in London, and he 
 said he would be happy to move in its terms as follows : 
 " That, in the opinion of this meeting, out-door relief is 
 excessive ; and that in-door relief should be the rule and 
 out-door relief the exception." 
 
 Mr. LowxDEs said he would be most happy to second 
 the resolution. In adopting it they would only be carry- 
 ing out what they proposed last year. He thought that 
 last year they seemed to be entirely agreed as to the 
 principle of the Poor Law, and that it was their duty to 
 api)ly the workhouse test, and do away as far as possible 
 with out-door relief. He was very much surprised to hear 
 the opening speech that day. He diii'ered from the 
 opinions therein expressed with great hesitation. He was 
 not a Guardian when the Act of Will. IT. was passed, 
 but certainly from his reading he had got the impression 
 that under the Act the workhouse test was to be 
 strictly applied. The Guardians had not so applied it, 
 owing very much to the opposition to the measure carried 
 out very powerfully by Mr. "Walter in the Times. To 
 that opposition might be traced the comparative failure 
 of the Act. They knew that in unions where this test 
 was enforced pauperism was almost extinguished — that 
 where there was a large amount of pauperism there was 
 also a large amount of out-door relief. They were really 
 acting in the most benevolent way towards the poor when 
 they refused ail out-door relief, save in urgent cases. If 
 they could get out-door relief they would not put into 
 clubs or make any provision for the future ; but if the 
 guardians were mercifully severe, as they might be, 
 they encouraged them to get and keep out of pauperism. 
 There was no shame felt in taking out-door relief, but 
 there was shame in coming into the house, and they 
 ought to take advantage of this sense of shame. If they had 
 these general principles in their minds, out-door relief would 
 gradually cease, and with it pauperism to a very great 
 extent. They had had a great deal of discussion on details, 
 but principles had been rather passed by. He wished to see 
 the Guardians generally committed to the principle ex- 
 pressed in the resolution. With reference to the power given 
 to the magistrates by 4 and 5 Will. IV., c. 76, s. 27, he, dilier- 
 ing from Mr. Pearson, thought it rather went to show that 
 the intention of the framers of the Act was that the work- 
 house test was to be the rule. They were afraid that the 
 Guardians would be too rigid in the application of this rule, 
 and therefore they put a power in the hands of the magis-
 
 28 
 
 ti-ates to deal with cases where some relaxation was 
 desii-able. That was the conclusion to which he had come 
 — that what might possibly be an undue hardness on the 
 part of the guardians should be relieved by men in a 
 position to take a temperate view, and who were not 
 influenced by the money question. Mr. Lowndes reminded 
 the meeting that the Conference in the year 1871 almost 
 unanimously agreed '' That this meeting is of opinion 
 that the principle of the Poor Law Amendment Act, 1834, 
 prohibiting out-door relief, should, as a rule be adhered 
 to, and that the cases in which that principle is deviated 
 from should be exceptionally rare." He hoped, therefore, 
 that the meeting would adopt the resolution proposed by 
 Mr. Melville, and that the discussion which had taken 
 place on matters of detail might be of use in carrying it 
 into practice. 
 
 Mr. PuRTOX was sorry he could not agree with the 
 resolution ; and he thought Mr. Lowndes was not quita 
 correct in saying that the resolution of last year was 
 adopted unanimously, the fact being that he had himself 
 held up his hand against it. He thought what had 
 been said by Mr. Pearson had not been refuted. There 
 were a great many unions where the out-door relief had 
 not only not increased, but where it had decreased. Mr. 
 Pearson had mentioned Martley, and he would add Clun 
 and Cleobury Unions. Last year in his parish they had 
 three sixpenny rates instead of four, and thty had done 
 that without pressing the workhouse test to any excess. 
 The speaker went on to specify various causes which he 
 thought would account for any increase in the amount of 
 out-door relief that had taken place, among them the 
 law of settlement, which tended to force the poor into 
 the towns where out-door relief had to be given. 
 
 Mr. Ja:mes Cropper (of Liverpool and "\Vestmoreland), 
 having thanked the Guardians of the West Midland 
 counties for permitting him to attend their discussions, 
 said it had always struck him that as Guardians they 
 should look to the diminution as well as the relief of 
 destitution. This was done by, not only diminishing the 
 cost of relief, but by reducing the number of those 
 who wanted. They saw the character of a union best when 
 they saw the proportion of paupers to population, not 
 when they saw the cost. He s:)metimes thought it was 
 a bad arrangement to put females with children into the 
 workhouse, because they got to look on the workhouse as 
 their home. He was connected with a large union, and 
 sometime ago their workhouse was nearly tilled. They 
 got a new master, and he said, ""We have got too 
 many paupers in proportion to the population." By 
 degrees he turned a number of them out. by making 
 it disagreeable to be in the house. It was too mucli
 
 29 
 
 the fashion amoog a certain class to be in the house, 
 and they must make it disagreeable to them. There 
 were large numbers of women who preferred to be in the 
 house with their illegitimate children, and then out to get 
 more. That was a most depressing thing. He had a great 
 horror of the degradation, the sort of animal life, to which 
 this led ; and it had often struck him that the absolute 
 refusal of relief, with some precaution to prevent starva- 
 tion, would be more charitable than taking these poor 
 people into the workhouse. There were places where 
 people getting old looked to have the workhouse as their 
 last home. Adverting to the subject of loans, he said 
 they had a collector whose duty it was to get as much 
 back as he could, and he (Mr. C.) often said that if they 
 gave Is. to get back 6d. they had the best of the bargain. 
 They had sometimes shamed people into taking their old 
 parents and maintaining them by the threat of a prosecu- 
 tion. It was astonishing how much a man, who was in 
 the position of an engine-driver, or one of a like character, 
 disliked to be brought before the magistrates. He thought 
 the liability to support relatives ought to be extended — 
 that, for example, brothers ought to be bound to support 
 brothers when they were unable to maintain tbemselves. 
 
 Mr. Hastings was anxious to address the Conference on 
 this subject, having taken part in the debate at the meeting 
 held last year, and having since appeared prominently 
 before the public in connection with it. He under- 
 stood that when he was absent Mr. Melville had moved 
 the adoption of a resolution identical with that adopted 
 by the London Conference in November last. He need 
 not say that as he voted for it then he should vote for it 
 now. 'He was struck by what the gentleman on his left 
 had said in regard to one or two matters. That gentleman 
 no doubt spoke the opinions of some people in this country 
 who really thought of the relief granted under the Poor 
 Law as if it were charity. He (Mr. H.), and those who 
 agreed with him, did not regard it as a question of 
 charity, and they were thrown on their beam-ends when 
 people talked in that fashion. They felt that those people 
 and themselves were advancing on parallel lines which 
 could never meet. The law of relief, as established by the 
 Act of Elizabeth, was intended as a legal recourse against 
 absolute starvation ; and so far from excluding it did not 
 touch on the operation of charity. With regard to certain 
 cases they were told it would be harsh to refuse out-door 
 relief ; his reply was that these cases were most 
 proper cases for the operation of charity. In dealing 
 with, such cases by administering out-door relief 
 they were throwing on the Poor Law what most 
 properly belonged to the domain of charity, which was 
 best administered by private individuals, who in its
 
 30 
 
 dispensation would be moved by the highest considerations 
 and the most Christian motives. If the case was one 
 with which they were not personally acquainted, then 
 there was a mode of relief of which Mr. Karr was there 
 that day as the representative — the Charity Organization 
 Society — which he wished had a branch in every town in 
 the kingdom. This would enable them to have their private 
 charity administered by other hands, by those who 
 thoroughly understood it and made it their business to 
 enquire minutely into every case. He ventured to say that 
 by holtling to that sound principle, and keeping charity 
 entirely distinct from the Poor Law, they would get over 
 two-thirds of the difficulty with which the question of the 
 administration of the Poor Law was surrounded. The 
 gentleman on his left had talked of out-door relief not being 
 connected with the amount of pauperism. AVhat he 
 would say was that in dealing with this question, as he 
 apprehended they were dealing with it, as a question of 
 the diminution of the amount of pauperism, and the 
 question of raising the lower classes of this country to 
 that degree of self-dependence without which no man 
 ■was worthy to live as a man (hear, hear), then out-door 
 relief was very closely connected with the amount of 
 pauperism. In his address at Leeds last autumn, he took 
 two unions. Atcham. and ^yoodbrillge in Suffolk, and com- 
 pared them. In Atcham, where out-door relief had been 
 refused, the amount of pau^ierism had been reduced to a 
 minimum, and at Woodbridge, where out-door relief was 
 lavishly given, the amount of pauperism was very high 
 indeed. These figures were impugned in a very curious way. 
 Mr. Gepp, who was present at this meeting, was also present 
 at a meeting held in the county of Suffolk, at the invitation 
 of Lord Stradbroke, when those statements were gone into, 
 and the way in which they were attacked was this : They 
 imagined that he produced the example of Woodbridge, 
 in opposition to Atcham, as the worst union in the 
 country, and they said, so far was this from being the 
 case, that they could produce four or five unions in the 
 county of Suffolk which were worse. (Laugliter.) How 
 far that helped them he was not able to say. but, accord- 
 ing to ordinary logic, it would rather tend to the 
 confirmation of his argument. "When they came to look 
 at this matter not as a question of figures, but as a 
 question of reason, they were able to see from their 
 own experience why out-door relief led to an increase of 
 pauperism ; not from the wish of those who administered it, 
 not from any intention on their part that pauperism should 
 be increased, but simply from the inevitable tendency of 
 the system. There was in out-door relief a fatal facility 
 for the increase of pauperism. If they said to a man 
 who applied for relief, '' If you want relief, which you
 
 31 
 
 can have no right to claim from your fellow -citizens on any 
 other ground but absolute inability to provide for j'ourstlf , 
 there is the house, the refuge which the law provides for 
 you," they would exclude all cases except those which were 
 absolutely deserving of relief. If, on the other hand, they 
 had a habit of out-door relief and gave money payments 
 to prevent starvation or in aid of penury, they got into a 
 system which opened a wide door for imposture, and for a 
 laxity of administration on the part of those who were 
 charged with the cari-ying out of the Poor Law. He was quite 
 aware Mr. Pearson, who had been an advocate for out-door 
 relief that day, chairman of one of the largest unions 
 in the county, was a most excellent chairman, and 
 administered the Poor Law in his own union with great 
 ability, but he overlooked the fact that it was very possible 
 that in other unions, where out-door relief was given, the 
 same care might not be exercised as in the union of 
 Hartley. It was not particular instances by which they 
 were to judge, but the system. If once they gave that 
 fatal facility for relief which was engendered by the out- 
 door system, they did that which led to an increase of 
 pauperism ; they got people immediately finding out that 
 they could not quite do for themselves. (Hear, hear.) From 
 that mcmient they sapped the energy and seK-dependence 
 of the population. He asked them to look at the question 
 in this way : "What right could there be to ask for such 
 a thing as out-door relief ? If it really were true that 
 there was a claim on the part of a man who could not assist 
 himself to ask his fellow-citizens to provide for him, 
 then the rule must apply to all alike. There was no one 
 who could not go to the State to ask it to eke out what 
 he was not able to do for himself. Cases had been brought 
 before his own Board in which a little more exertion, a 
 little more energy, a little more forethought, would 
 have done away with tlie necessity for the application. 
 He believed it to be most true that every shilling given 
 in out-door relief was given in supplementation of 
 wages. Directly or indirectly, it must always have that 
 result. In the agricultural districts the farmers, to a 
 very considerable extent, supplied themselves with cheaper 
 labour by employing men, who being sixty years old or on 
 some other pretext, received a certain amount of money in 
 out-door relief. They said, " You get so much from the 
 parish, we shall give you so much less ;" but they really lost 
 by it in the end, because they got less efficient labour. In 
 the metropolis it was the same, where the amount of 
 out-door relief came in aid of rent. "When he had the 
 honour, last December, of addressing the fellows at Sion 
 College he alluded to this subject, and in the discussion 
 which ensued, this objection was raised, that the dock 
 labourers must receive out-rclief, because they were only
 
 32 
 
 piiid 15s. a week, ami if they were paid any more the 
 dock directors would not he ahle to declare any dividend. 
 (Laughter.) He was delighted with that argument. He 
 knew that out-door relief was given in the metropolis in 
 aid of rent, and that it was given in rural districts 
 in aid of wages ; but then for the first time he learnt 
 that out-door relief was given to enable dock companies to 
 pay dividends to their shareholders. If they investigated 
 the subject logically they would find that out-door relief, 
 if given at all, must in fact be given all round. 
 The real remedy in the matter was to say they would 
 give no relief whatever, except in cases that met 
 the sound conditions of the statute of Elizabeth, which 
 laid down the rule that relief should never be given 
 except in cases of absolute destitution, or except as an 
 equivalent for honest labour. Unless that principle were 
 carried out he would venture to say that they never could 
 prevent the increase of pauperism in this country. When 
 they considered for one moment what the wealth of this 
 country was, and that there was no scheme of home or 
 foreign enterprise for which ample funds could not be 
 found, what a scandal it was, that with all this capital, 
 they had this burthen of pauperism upon thtm. He 
 should vote for the resolution, because he believed that it 
 was the only sound, truly charitabl(\ and really merciful 
 enunciation of the i)riuciple of the Poor Law. (Applause.) 
 Mr. W. G. NoRRis (Madeley) said it was quite a new 
 light to him that out-door relief was given in suj^plement 
 of wages. He doubted whetlier any employer would 
 employ an old and inefficient hand merely because being in 
 receipt of relief he would take less wajj;es. He entirely 
 set that aside as a matter of theory. He cordially agreed 
 with Mr. Cropper as to the extension of the liability of 
 relatives ; and, with all due deference, thought that the 
 most valuable suggestion that had l)een offered. 
 After a few remarks from Capt. Kuddlk, 
 Mr. Loudon remarked that there had lieen a dilFerence 
 of opinion on some of the points of detail that had been 
 discussed ; and he wished to know how far the resolution 
 was connected with these details, or whether it was 
 connected with them at all. If it was proposed that th-y 
 should adopt the resolution as a general principle, that 
 might be very well, but he should object to it if it bound 
 them to the rules. He believed himself that if out-door 
 relief were discontinued kindly, gently, not all at once, it 
 would tend in the long run to raise the poor. He strongly 
 urged a strict investigation into all cases, and the exercise 
 of an independent judgment on the part of the Guardians. 
 He should like to see a charity organization society in everv' 
 town ; for if they had that he was convinced they would soon 
 see a great diminution of the pauperism of this country.
 
 33 
 
 Mr. BuEGES alluding to the recovery of the cost of 
 relief from relatives, touched upon by various speakers, 
 said that a great deal depended on the energy with which 
 this was looked after. In the last half-year of their late 
 clerks tenui'e of office, he recovered from the relatives 
 and friends of paupers, ^133. 16s. 4d. They changed 
 their clerk, getting a younger and more energetic man. 
 In the first half-year he recovered £249. 17s. 8d. ; in the 
 next £309. 10s. 10d.,andin the third, ending last October, 
 he recovered £330. Os. 6d. The next point to be seen to 
 was removals. This they had also had looked to very 
 closely, and by removals and persons ceasing to be charge- 
 able Ijecause they refused to be removed, they had in 
 twenty-one months ending last November saved £31. 16s. 
 per week to the union. 
 
 Mr. Pearsox expressed his surprise at the extreme 
 views enunciated by his friend Mr. Hastings, and remarked 
 that if they followed oiit that gentleman's argument to 
 its full extent they should have no out-door relief at all. 
 He was also astonished that any member of his Board 
 should come there and speak of the extravagance of out- 
 door relief. He was sure that Mr. Melville could not get 
 three Guardians of the Martley Union to agree with him. 
 Mr. Pearson reiterated some of the views he had 
 expressed in his opening remarks. 
 
 The chairman then took the sense of the meeting, 
 when the resolution was carried by a large majority, 
 only four gentlemen voting against it. 
 
 BENEFIT AND MEDICAL CLUBS. 
 
 The Chairman said they would now turn to No. 2 on 
 the list — '" Benefit and Medical Clubs." Though it was 
 not strictly a Poor Law subject, it was closely related to 
 the object of these conferences. They all looked to the 
 upraising of the pauper population of this country as a 
 subject of the utmost importance ; and, as means to that 
 end, regarded with interest institutions for making the 
 most of the savings of the working classes. The man 
 who solved the problem which still stood for solution, and 
 developed the plan of a thoroughly efficient friendly 
 society, would perform as great a service for his country 
 as any man could do. A gentleman had kindly promised 
 to introduce this subject, and he would at once call upon 
 Mr. Arthur Brown. 
 
 Mr. Brown said, in bringing before them this subject 
 of friendly and benefit clubs, his object was rather to 
 elicit information from gentlemen of more experience 
 than himself than to commimicate any views of his own. 
 It would at once be admitted that a well-organised benefit 
 club would tend most materially to diminish the pauperism
 
 54 
 
 of this country. He knew it was a most difficult matter 
 to decide how a society of this kind could be carried on 
 successfully, many, consti'ucted on different plans, having 
 been tried and failed. Was it better to establish such a 
 society with a purely local orj^iuiization : would it be 
 bf.tter to have one under the State, with a local super- 
 vision ? Another question he would suggest was whether 
 the Charity Organization Society could come forward 
 ■with a scheme that would hold out to the labouring 
 classes a safe investment for their savings. They were 
 all aware that the anniversai'y of many of the existing 
 benefit societies was coming on ; and wheu they saw the 
 proceedings during Whitsun week he thought they would 
 agree with him that there was ample room for a great 
 improvement in the administration of these societies. 
 He would rather himself see a local club on true 
 principles, than one operating over a large area, because 
 he thought the supervision would be very much better, 
 and the cases of applicants would be better investigated. 
 There would not, he thought, be so much imposition as 
 in a large club. There was one point often advanced. 
 It was said that, in consequence of the low rate of 
 wages, labourers were unable to put money by. 
 Any one, however, who had taken the trouble to 
 find out what a labourer s earnings were would 
 be convinced that he had ample means of putting by a 
 small sum weekly, monthly, or quarterly, as a provision 
 for himself and his family in a time of need. He knew 
 that in some instances clubs started and carried on under 
 good supervision had been attended with great success ; 
 but in other cases they had failed, and labourers who had 
 been members for many years never received any relief at 
 aU. Something happened in the management, and the 
 whole amount of the members' savings was swept away. 
 The place where the Whitsun anniversaries were held did 
 not conduce to much saving. The pubUc-house where the 
 club was held was not a place for saving money in. Was 
 it not possible that a benefit society, adapted to meet the 
 wants of all parts of the country, could be promulgated, 
 and carried on away from the public-house ? Such a 
 society would tend day by day and hour by houi" to 
 decrease the pauperism so much discussed that morning. 
 He could not help thinking after the able remarks of Mr. 
 Hastings that he might assist them. He (Mr. H.) was a 
 member of the Social Science Association, and perhaps 
 they would discuss this subject if he would bring it before 
 them. He was perfectly certain that if any scheme could 
 be devised that would combine efficiency and safety, the 
 labouring class would not be slow to perceive that it would 
 be to their advantage to avail themselves of it. He begged 
 to propose : —
 
 35 
 
 "That the establishment throughout the country of Provi- 
 dent Societies on sound principles is greatly needed ; and that 
 this meeting ask the assistance of the Social Science Associa- 
 tion in promoting such an object." 
 
 The Eev. J. P. Hastings (Arley Kings) seconded the 
 resolution, and read the following paper, in which, as will 
 be perceived, he makes a practical suggestion on the 
 subject : — 
 
 There is a deep-seated prejudice, high and low, against the 
 union workhouse as the termination ol a labourer's career. We 
 think this notion is exaggerated, and that in the rural work- 
 houses, at any rate, there are many compensations for the loss 
 of his cottage home. There are even objects of ambition for 
 the well-conducted pauper, by which he can be promoted and 
 put into minor offices of trust— such as gardener, stable-man, 
 foreman of sick ward, allot which give him functions not much 
 inferior to the porter's. Yet we will admit there is both among 
 philanthropists and also among the poor a prevalent idea very 
 much to the disadvantage of union workhouses, or the 
 abode of a well-behaved man or woman after the period 
 of industry is past and they are unable to earn a 
 livelihood from old age. It is the purport of this paper 
 to suggest a remedy tor this state of things, by the aid of 
 existiug machinery, to point out how. at a very small com- 
 parative cost, a comfortable maintenance can be provided for 
 each thrifty labourer who exercises as much forecast as that 
 portion of them do who are at this present moment the 
 subscribers to benefit, sick, and burial clubs throughout the 
 kingdom. Thi^se, it is credibly affirmed, are not in a thriving 
 condition, commercially speaking. It is believed that Mr. 
 Tidd Pratt gave a very discouraging verdict upon their 
 stability, even of those whose roots are most wide-spreading, 
 and whose affiliated branches are most luxuriant. All here 
 must have known wlmt it is for an ordinary country public- 
 hoHS club to break up, after a career of thirtj% forty, or 
 fifty years. This is no uncommon occurrence, and inflicts a 
 cruel wrong on the poor, who have, perhaps, been persuaded to 
 pay into this or that club, as a provision for old age, sickness, 
 or burial expenses. After jjaying in for 10, 15, or 20 years, to 
 have all the prospective benefit dashed away, must be a severe 
 trial to the morale of any previous economical set of men. We 
 recollect the event happening at a large town near (Birmingham 
 Provident Institution, 1867), and the recklessness for the future 
 and the waste of the portion of percentage money that wa3 
 recovered was appalling to behold—'" ibi omnis ejfusus labor ;" 
 and a blow inflicted on economy and saving habits irrreparable 
 for years. To meet those evils we suggest the formation of a 
 National Benefit Club under the management of the Guardians, 
 ■which should receive contributions precisely as the existing 
 benefit clubs, at fixed times, and for the same objects. The 
 payments and advantages resulting must be calculated by 
 actuaries approved by Government. The hours should be 
 named conveniently to the labourer, as the little use which is 
 made of the Government Annuities, under the Post Office 
 Savings Bank Act, may be traced to the unsuitable 
 hours to which paying is limited. This National Benefit Club 
 should be managed by the Boards of Guardians^ who would 
 probably act through a committee just as now in their assess- 
 ment, house, or financial committees. The funds of the club 
 should be guaranteed by Government and mvested in Govern-
 
 36 
 
 ment secarities, and aided, either by a grant from the 
 consolidated fund or by a rate specially levied on all descrip- 
 tions of property, so as to avoid adding another item to that 
 monstrous conglomerate of charges, the present poor rate. 
 The Guardians should have cert:iin discretionary power in 
 managing the funds (all of course under the inspection of the 
 Government actuary or auditor), such as permission to 
 continue the club fees or payments of persons fallen into 
 arrear from a destitute or indigent condition, who had pre- 
 viously contributed to its treasury. Possibly, also, we mi:,'ht 
 see a system of houses, for residence for the aged club 
 members, similar to almshouses but not necessarily par- 
 taking of their evils, which extensively propagate pauperism, 
 nor necessarily near the union wo.khouse. I call them 
 almshouses for want of a better name. But I mean resi- 
 dences under regulation, at low rents, and repaired at the 
 expense of the club. These might be en_'rafted upon the 
 mauMgemeut of the National Benefit Club, so as to afford a 
 comfortable and respectable home for deserving poor in old 
 age or widowhood at a nominal or much reduced rent under 
 proper regulations. This would be obviated, one of the great 
 drawbacks to our present workhouse system, viz., that so 
 miserable goal or refuge remains for the industrious hard- 
 workers to look forward to at the end of their life. The work- 
 houses would then be very much limited to the destitute and 
 impiovideut only, and those who refused to contribute to the 
 National Benefit Club. We believe this plan, if it could be 
 set on foot by Government authority, as the Post Office 
 Siivings Banks', would do much to obviate a hardship and 
 do away with a sentimental grievance of the poor. The 
 example of the Postal Savings Banks, especially in War- 
 wickshire, tends to show that it would answer. The 
 Guardians should also have equitable powers to lessen the club 
 pay or allowances in the case of those lazy drones who are the 
 opprobria of the present clubs. They trade upon some chronic 
 ailment hard to be confuted, and often drive existing club 
 managers almost to despair. They exact a heavy annuity and 
 live in clover upon the club box, either malingering or exagger- 
 ating some obscure ailment of difficult diagnosis. In fact, as 
 the present public house club centre and pivot upon the beer 
 baiTel, it may be said that they do almost as much harm as 
 good. Though their jollity and processions are a great 
 attraction and bait to enlist fresh members, they induce a 
 continual dropping and demoralise masses by inculcating 
 drinking habits nnd late hours. However, it mny be objected, 
 that the first formation would be difficult of this national 
 benefit club. No doubt it would be so. but it can only be 
 brought forward for consideration in assemblies like the pre- 
 sent, in the hope of arousing interest in members of either 
 House of Parliament, especially at the passing moment 
 when so much is laid upon the condition, economical 
 and social, of the Agricultural labourer. The Trades' 
 Unions mischievous combination can only be met and 
 kept at bay by promoting the elevation of the working 
 class in a more excellent way. We believe that the well being 
 of a labourer's family does not depend so much on his actual 
 weekly earnings as on his own careful and steady conduct, and 
 the thrift and management of his partner. [Vide the writer's 
 pamphlet just issued on " The duty of the Boards of Guardians" 
 on " The Agricultural Labourers' Strike"— at page 9, where from
 
 37 
 
 the Government report (1868) on " The employment of women 
 and children in agriculture" — the result, which will surprise 
 most cursory observers, is proved to he this : That the highest 
 ratio of pauperism does not ccnncide with the lowest rate of 
 farm wages in the Euglisli counties. This is a very remarkable 
 fact, and, as far as we know, has never been noticed before in 
 its bearing upon measures torai>e and ameliorate the condition 
 of the poor, especially upon the present plan of a Government 
 benefit club which would tend to maintain the permanence and 
 integrity of the cottage homes of the poor. Because more 
 particularly the leaning of the present administration of the 
 Poor L;iw is to curtail out-door relief, and hence more and 
 more the labourer will have need of some " maiutainiug 
 power" or a club behind him in sudden illness and other 
 emergencies, else his house would be liable to be broken up, 
 his furniture sold on coming to the workhouse, and ihus an 
 amount of pauperisation would be created, that no Poor 
 Law economy could meet or avert. But to conclude, 
 we will mention one or two objections to this scLeme. 
 The first is that anything connected with the union 
 workhouse would be distasteful and uupalatsible in the 
 eyes of the class which we wish to benefit. This we con- 
 sider a mere sentimental grievance, the stock in trade of 
 sentimental agitators ; for (laying apart towns, for which we 
 are not speaking) t'.ie accommodations of a rural workhouse 
 are not strikingly inferior to that of their cotfige homes. The 
 discipline, cleanliness, and confinement, is what is galling. If 
 the place of residence or almsbouse we alluded to could be 
 brought to bear, it would go far to do away with any disagreeable 
 association of ideas aliout the whole scheme with the unsavoury 
 union woikhouse. What we realiy should miss is the atmosphere 
 of joviality and sociality in the existing Whitsuntide clubs — 
 their element and success, and their great leverage. But, 
 secondly, perhaps a more serious objection is that the work- 
 people would not like to pay in their savings at the lioard to 
 the oflicers appointed, because the Guardians, who would 
 become cognizant of their amount, might be their own 
 employers, and thus begrudge them assistance in time of 
 sickness or afiliction. There is some prima facie weight in 
 this ax'gument, as the analogy of a superior rank shows, for we 
 do not find the tenants on a large estate, where the agent, 
 perhaps, is a solicitor, going to that solicitor when they receive 
 a legacy, or when they wish to make their wills, as they would 
 fear such information would go to tlie vei-y quarter which they 
 least wished. But, in the case in hand, we think that by 
 judicious management on the part of the Boards of Guardians, 
 the project would work. For instance, there might always be 
 a certain proportion of ex officio Guardians, namely, one-third 
 of the whole number (as in assessment committees by Act 
 of Parliament), or the National Benefit Club Committee, and 
 thus it would not be very probable that any labourer paying 
 in, would be damaged by his employer becoming asvare of the 
 fact. At any rate, there are objections to every human plan for 
 meeting a difficulty, and it cannot be denied that just now 
 the agitation among the agricultural labourers is serious. It 
 will scarcely be met by giving him the county franchise, or 
 cutting ofif the entail on settled estates, but it may be alleviated 
 by a hearty co-operation in mutual good offices and in welding 
 together the links that bind the body politic together, and we 
 heie present have every reason to help in quenching the 
 conflagration, for Tua res agitur, paries quum proximus ardet.
 
 38 
 
 Mr. John Brinton (Kidderminster) rose, not for the 
 purpose of discussing the various points embraced in the 
 resolution, but to give them an example of a sick and 
 benefit club which had worked very well, and which was 
 founded on a basis applicable at least in the manufacturing 
 districts. In the works with which he was connected 
 they employed over 1.000 persons, and a club had been 
 established on the works with the object of preventing 
 any necessity for the people coming on the Board of 
 Guai'dians. There were 170 members, men and women. 
 A man paid 6d. a week, and received Ss. a week when 
 disabled for work by sickness or accident. A woman 
 paid 3d. a week, and received 4s. There was also a 
 payment in case of death. The club was conducted 
 by the managers, clerks, and chiefs of departments, 
 combined with a representation of the workpeople. The 
 management was very simple, and cost nothing. The 
 club did not meet in a public-house. At the end of the 
 year whatever surplus there was was shared among the 
 members who had not come on the funds, except twelve 
 weeks' payments, for which each received 5 per cent 
 interest. The club was popular on the works ; and he 
 might ?tate, as showing the good which had resulted, that 
 during the years he had been a member of the Board of 
 Guardians fewer cases had come before them from his 
 works than from many much smaller firms in the town. 
 
 The Rev. C. B. Teye said he had long taken an interest 
 in benefit societies. In conjunction with some friends he 
 established one 30 years ago. It worked very well for five 
 or six years ; but they made the mistake of admitting 
 men and women on equal terms, and this was the rock on 
 which they split. They could generally teU when a 
 mechanic or labourer was ill, but not a woman, particularly 
 if her occupation was such as kept her in the house. 
 They must, in establishing a friendly society, avoid any 
 connecti n with the Poor Law Guardians : such a connec- 
 tion would be iatal to its success, as respectable working 
 men would hold aloof from it. He would also suggest 
 that the club should not be managed by gentlemen alone, 
 but in part at least by ordinary members. 
 
 Mr. Hastings said he should be most happy to bring 
 the subject before the Social Science Association. He 
 could, of course, express no opinion as to what they would 
 say, all the more so as, being President of the Council, 
 he would have to sit in a judicial capacity. He rather 
 thought they would wish to wait for the report of the 
 Royal Commission on Friendly Societies, wliiih must be 
 made at no distant date. He for one felt it was most 
 desirable that such a club as had been spoken of — one 
 thoroughly safe and efficient — should be established. He 
 had had the pleasure last year of listening to an interesting
 
 39 
 
 paper by Mr. Stratton on this subject. With reference to 
 the question, whether a club shoukl be private or under 
 Government, he might say that there were advantages 
 and disadvantages either way. The difficulty in regard to 
 local clubs was their insecurity. Nothiug could be more 
 lamentable than the case of a man who had been 
 subscribing for perhaps thirty years to a club, and when 
 the moment arrived when he ought to reap the benefits, the 
 society was wound up, and he was left destitute to come 
 upon the union. There was, on the other hand, some- 
 thing so slightly elastic about Government institutions, 
 that he feared a Government benefit society would fail to 
 accommodate itself to the wants of the people. It was 
 only the other day that his fi'iend Mr. Hollond, one of 
 the most charitable men living, made an allusion to the 
 Government savings banks, and said that they did not 
 allow business to be done at the very hours when artizans 
 could avail themselves of them. (Hear, hear.) It was 
 really incredible that any Government official would sit 
 down and construct a scheme so inapplicable to the wants 
 of the people for whose use it was designed. He was 
 afraid that something like this would be found in a 
 Government club ; but if this difficulty could be got over, 
 the good security it would ofier would make it by far the 
 best that could be desired. If the conference passed the 
 resolution he would urge the Council of the Social Science 
 Association to take some action in the matter. (Applause). 
 Mr. "Wyxdham S. Portal could not tell them how much 
 he was delighted at their having taken this subject up. It 
 was one in which he had been interested for many years. 
 It mattered not to him or to them whether they were 
 working small village clubs, county clubs, or such gijjantic 
 associations as the Oddfellows or the Foresters. What 
 they wanted was a safe investment. It was said the 
 English labouring class would not lay by ; but if they 
 visited the infirm people in their workhouses, and inquired 
 whether they had ever been a provident people, they would 
 find that almost every one had been in one or two clubs, 
 and had now got to die in a workhouse. It was one 
 thing to relieve distress, but it Avas a better thing to 
 prevent it. The question was whether tlie club of the 
 future should be a county club, or more local still, or, 
 whicii would be better, a local institution with Government 
 security. If the question were satisfactorily answered, 
 they would soon cease meeting to discuss whether they 
 should give in-door or out-door relief. One of the gentle- 
 men wlio had spoken had said that he thought a local 
 club superior to one coveiLng a larger area ; but they had 
 it on the highest authority, Mr. Neisom, that a strictly 
 local club could not be sound, because the law of averages 
 could not operate, and a visitation of typhoid fever, or
 
 40 
 
 some other epidemic, might at any time exhaust its 
 funds. They might, therefore, put to one side the 
 local clubs, and take the county club. Here, again, there 
 was the difficulty caused by the migration of the labouring 
 classes. A man who was in Yorkshire to-day, might be in 
 Devon, or Cornwall, to-morrow. It would be difficult to 
 secure and convey to such a man the benefits of a county 
 club. If they wanted to help the working classes in this 
 matter, it was not interference, but intervention, they 
 required — the provision cf something that would prevent 
 frauds and give a national security. 
 
 The Eev. G. Edjionds (Madeley) said that the Shrop- 
 shire Friendly Society was altogether safe, and would be 
 safe in the most extreme circumstances. Notwithstanding 
 tliese advantages the working classes did not avail them- 
 selves of it, and the reason was that it clashed with the 
 interests of the publicans, who exerted their influence to 
 joiu the Oddfellows, Foresters, or Gardeners who met in 
 the public-house. Young men were thus led to drink, 
 and they wasted a great deal of money on bands and feasts. 
 He had'been an honorary member of three clubs, and had 
 been mixed up with them all his life ; but, from what he 
 had observed, he would rather seek to induce a habit of 
 carefulness by advising men to put the money they were 
 able to save in the savings bank. A man when he has 
 made his payment to a club feels himself at liberty to 
 spend the rest of his money, but when he began to put 
 into the savings bank he saw his money accumulate, and 
 gradually acquu-ed economical habits. He liked to see 
 children taught to save their pence; and, while he wished 
 there were a savings bank in every parish, he was 
 especially desirous for the multiplication of penny banks. 
 
 Mr. Seton-Karr wished to mention that a deputation 
 had recently waited on the Postmaster-General to ask 
 him to afford gi-eater facilities for the use of the Post- 
 office Savings Bank. The deputation laid stress on 
 three points : that applicants should be allowed to deposit 
 smaller sums than a shilling, that places more accessible 
 to the workmen should be chosen for the business of the 
 hank ; and that the bank should be kept open at hours 
 wben artisans and mechanics could pay their money. 
 Several clergymen were on the deputation, and they all 
 pointed out, most strongly, the inconvenience ai'ising 
 from the bank being shut at the very time when there was 
 no other bank for the working man to put his money in 
 but the hand of the publican. Mr. MonseU answered with 
 the usual reserve. He was evidently influenced by finan- 
 cial considerations ; but he promised to consider the 
 subject. He (Mr. Seton-Karrj heartily endorsed what 
 had been said that day, by Mr. Hastings and others, in 
 favour of raising the labourer in his own estimation.
 
 41 
 
 The Eev. E. F. Gepp was glad to hear his own views so 
 generally expressed. He himself was convinced that the 
 only safe benefit society would be a national one. He was 
 di'iven to that conclusion not only by what he had read, 
 but by what he had seen in his own neighbourhood. A 
 miserable state of insecurity prevailed. He dismissed 
 from all consideration those wretched counterfeits that 
 were so common in rural districts ; he flew at higher 
 game. Mr. Neisom had declai-ed that the very largest of 
 all the provident societies, the Manchester Unity, was at 
 the time he wrote in an unsound state, and at the time it 
 had three millions of capital. Mr. Gepp proceeded to 
 give particulars respecting certain local societies in liis 
 own locality that had proved to be unable to meet their 
 engagements ; and particularly one of which he had been 
 appointed a trustee. The benefits it ofiered were pay- 
 ments in sickness and at death, and a pension of 4s. a 
 week to members after they attained the age of Go years. 
 He soon saw that if the pensions were continued the 
 society must be ruined ; and, acting under the advice of 
 an able actuary, he had with ditficulty persuaded the 
 members to stop the pensions. 
 
 The Kev. J. Peaesox had no doubt Mr. Hastings would 
 prevail on the Social Science Association to take up this 
 subject, and that they would deal with it in a most satis- 
 factory manner. Having alluded to the case of a Becher 
 Club with which he had been connected, that had had to 
 be wound up because the sick pay was too large, he went 
 on to say that he agreed no club would be secure unless it 
 was guaranteed by Government. He did not approve of 
 tbe plan suggested by his friend, the Eev. J. P. Hastings. 
 There were clubs, however, that were perfectly safe. He 
 had had some intercourse with Mr. Sotheron Estcourt, 
 ■\sho was connected with a large club in "Wiltshire. It 
 combined a savings bank and a friendly society. The 
 members paid in what they could save, which lay as a 
 deposit, while he paid 17s. a year to secure 7s. a week in 
 sickness. Having further described the working of this 
 S( ciety he repeated that it was perfectly safe. He had 
 once asked Mr. Tidd Pratt how many of the benefit 
 societies in the country were in his o]iiuion secure. Mr. 
 Tidd Pratt paused, and then he said. '' I am not in a 
 difiiculty en account of their number, but on account of 
 their paucity," and added that there would be great 
 crai?hes amcng the great clubs before very long. He 
 agreed that the question before them was one of the 
 very highest impcrtance. 
 
 The Kev. H. P. Turner (Kidderminster) gave many 
 interesting details respecting the Stewponey Becher Blub, 
 which, under the advice of Mr. Finlaison, had been put 
 into a thoroughly sound state. It ought, he considered.
 
 42 
 
 to have a much larger membership than it had ; but the 
 other clnbs, such as the OddfeDows', were more popular. 
 He was also of opinion that it was essential to the success 
 of a club that it should have no conuection, however 
 distant, with the Poor Law. 
 
 Mr. Croppek thought Mr. Turner's details most valu- 
 able. It was not safe, he considered, to mix up sick 
 benefits with annuities. 
 
 The Rev. G. D. BorRNE remarked that they had 
 already a government annuity club, but the working 
 classes did not avail themselves of it to any considerable 
 extent. 
 
 Mr. Baker observed that there was a club in his locality 
 which certainly did not expect to get mentioned at such a 
 meeting as that. It was a very useful little club, however. 
 It was managed by a teetotal farmer, and the club dined in 
 his loft. At the end of the year it was broken up entirely, 
 and the money was divided among the members, and most 
 of it put into the Savings Bank. They did not attempt any- 
 thing beyond that. He agreed witli Mr. Cropper, and 
 thought it was best that they should have a perfectly safe club 
 in the Post-ottice Savings Bank for annuities, and merely a 
 small sick club for a single parish to insure against sick- 
 ness. He felt very strongly what had been said by several 
 gentlemen that it was desirable, if they could get to it, to 
 do away Avith clubs altogether, and trust to the savings 
 bank — if they could get people to put into the savings 
 bank to insure against sickness and old age. When they 
 got educated thoroughly — by which he did not mean 
 merely taught to read and write — they would get clubs 
 done away witli. and have the savings bank running ahme. 
 But they did very much want clubs in the meantime, and 
 he did long very much indeed to get the post-office savings 
 bank made an annuity club more convenient and more 
 get-at-able than at present. 
 
 Mr. S.\rgeauxt said Capt. Euddle had requested him, 
 as a co-trustee, to mention a club at Tewkesbury which 
 was certainly one of the best in the country. Having 
 stated the organisation and described the working of this 
 society, he said that, on the advice of Mr. Neisora, they 
 had recently raised the sick pay, and he hoped to make 
 it still better by-aud-bye. Tliey had an annuity business, 
 but it was separate. It had been i-emarked that the 
 Government annuity business was not very successful, 
 and he did not believe that any voluntary club, as a 
 national club, would be. He mentioned a project of his 
 own, which was a poll-tax, and a Government provision 
 for all who required it in old age. The poor-rates at 
 present amounted to about £9,000,000., which was 8s. 7d. 
 a head on the whole population. Supposing they raised 
 the contribution to 13s. a head. Then they would have
 
 43 
 
 a fund of £15,000,000., which he calculated would be 
 BuflBcient for the purpose he had stated. Employers 
 should be allowed to deduct this sum from the wages of 
 all men earning £1 and upwards. He suggested this as 
 a novelty, in the belief that if put into operation vagrants 
 wonld be the only paupers they would have left to deal 
 with. 
 
 Mr. NoERis (Madeley) observed that the tendency of 
 the times was against employers making any deductions 
 from wages. Speaking from experience, he believed there 
 was very little trouble in working a benefit society suc- 
 cessfully, provided they were careful to appoint prudent 
 managers. 
 
 The Chairman said they had been discussing a subject 
 of very great interest, and he hoped it would continue to be 
 more thought about. It had been said that the Social 
 Science Association would be inclined to wait till the 
 report of the Royal Comuiissioners had been presented ; 
 that aftbrded no reasoiiwhy they should not in the meanwhile 
 be considering it. Strong pressure would, probably, be re- 
 quii'ed to induce the Government to take any action in the 
 matter, and it would be well that they should be preparing 
 themselves to apply such pressure in an inteiiigeut 
 manner. It was a melancholy fact that a really sound 
 club was a very great rarity. Almost all it seemed that 
 were sound provided no annuity for their members in old 
 age. On the other hand the Government Annuity Act 
 was almost a dead letter. He had taken an active part 
 in the formation of several societies, which were managed 
 by honorary members ; but the terms were higher than 
 working men were disposed to pay. The number of 
 members was not sufficient in a local society for the law 
 of averages to operate. He saw the difficulty there would 
 be in Setting up a national club : but still he thought 
 these difficulties might be overcome, and they must look 
 to the Govemment,.,he believed, for their solution. 
 
 The resolution was then put, and unanimously adopted ; 
 and it may be noted, as a proof of the interest of the 
 discussion, "that, though many had been obliged to leave 
 by train, yet, at ten minutes past five, the secretary 
 counted 4::5 members still in the room. It was arranged 
 that Mr. Barwick Baker would read to the gentlemen 
 present after dinner a paper he had prepared on 
 VAGRANCY. 
 
 Mr. Bakek accordingly read as follows : — 
 
 Let me give an account of the different modes which have 
 been adopted in the last few years to discourage vagrants, 
 only premising that happily public opinion has changed — 
 and, ihat whereas, some vears ago we had a hard battle to 
 fight with many who held that that we "ought to let them 
 starve "-*the only effect of which was to throw them on an
 
 44 
 
 excessive and most injudicious private charity— now-a-days all 
 allow that whether as a matter of charity, or of wise political 
 economy, we are bound to see that all shall have sustenance 
 secured to them so that they shall not have the excuse of 
 possible starvation for their begging, nor that the charitable 
 public shall have the same excuse for indiscriminate and cure- 
 less giviug. Many other old errors are happily exploded. It used 
 to be broadly stated that all vagrants were the sons of vagrants, 
 bred to the trade, who never had worked and never would alter. 
 But when the mean number rose trom 2,674 in 1864, to 5,248 in 
 
 1867, it became clear that the increase of 2,574 could not have 
 been born and grown up adults in the three years.* 
 
 It is still indeed — or lately was — contended by a few that the 
 vagrants are most dangerous characters. Burglars, sheep 
 stealers, and garrotters all are vagrants ; and it has even been 
 broadly stated that the major part of the indictable offences 
 are committed by vagrants. I can only say that in any county 
 that I have met with where pains are taken as to that first of 
 all requisites for repressing crime — viz., the acquiring a know- 
 ledge of the antecedents of each prisoner — it is found that not 
 one in ten is of the vagrant or tramp class. 
 
 Another bugbear, happily now extinct, was the enormous 
 expense of the maintenance of vagrants ruining the ratepayers, 
 &c. The real proportional cost of vagrants maintained in our 
 vagrant wards is just about one four hundreth part of the poor 
 rate, so that, if for one year the highest allowance given by any 
 workhouse were given to all the vagrants of England, and the 
 next year none at all were given to anj', the saving to a farmer 
 whose rates amounted to £20. a year would be just one shilling. 
 
 But if vagrancy has less connection with serious crime — 
 than some have believed, and is of less expense to the rate- 
 payers than others have imagined, it is by no means a matter 
 to "be thought lightly of. First, the physical and the moral 
 welfare of 6,000 or 8,000 of our fellow creatures— depending in 
 some degree on our efl'orts as to whether they shall be dragged 
 down to a life of wretchedness, deceit, and guilt, or whether 
 by making such a life rather more unsuited to their tastes than 
 one of honest labour, we drive them back to a useful and 
 respectable life — is a matter which cannot fail to interest those 
 who care for the welfare of their fellow creatures. Nor is this 
 all. While in a national point of view the labour which these 
 men ought to be doing is a loss to the state far exceeding the 
 trifling amount of their actual keep— it must be also remem- 
 bered that when there is scarcity of work, as there began in 
 1866, and large numbers go on tramp, and when as has happily 
 been the case in 1870, many of the tramps find their Wiiy bade 
 to the labour market, they cannot but return as a deteiiorated 
 and demoralised race not unlikely to spread moral if not 
 physical contagion among their fellow workmen. 
 
 The first system, so far as I know, which has of late been 
 suggested to reduce vagrancy commenced in my own county, 
 and its objects were — 
 
 1st. To secure that every destitute wayfarer applying to a 
 workhouse shall have sufficient lodging and food. 
 
 2nd. To require from every such wayfarer, who so applies 
 without a ticket showing that he has travelled that day a 
 reasonable distance, four hours of steady work. 
 
 *And when they have fallen in numbers from 7,946 in July, 
 
 1868, to 3,735 in January, 1871, it cannot be assumed that 4,211 
 have died and none others been born.
 
 45 
 
 8rd. To offer to every such one who performs this work a 
 ticket, stating name, height, &c., and the ultimate destination 
 to which he prufesses to be travelling, with the date of time 
 and place ; and to tell him that if he present that ticket at any 
 workhouse about ten miles nearer to his destination he will 
 escape the task of work on the following day. 
 
 4th. If he start from the second workhouse in the morning 
 without a task of work, and present his ticket at a third work- 
 house about twenty miles nearer his destination, he will again 
 be received and allowed to depart the next morning with his 
 ticket re-dated and without a task of work, and so on to the 
 end of his journey. 
 
 5tb. But if he present his ticket at any workhouse not in the 
 direct road to his destination, or not at a suflBcient distance 
 from his last lodging, and fail to show reasonable cause, he 
 will be required to do four hours' work next morning. 
 
 Exceptions— 1st. Discretion must be left to the relieving 
 oflBcer (who is usually a policeman) to admit any person who 
 shall have travelled a shorter distance if he show that he is 
 lame, or infirm, or burdened with a wife and familj-, or from 
 any other reason shall be unable to travel to the next work- 
 house on the line, and such person shall be treated as if he 
 had travelled the specified distance. 2ud. Boards of Guar- 
 dians will, from their local knowledge, make their own rules 
 from what workhouse they will receive a wayfarer as having 
 come a sufi&cient distance. Probably a distance of 18 or even 
 16 miles might be accepted if there were no workhouse within 
 10 miles on the onward route. 
 
 We contend that wayfarers may be divided into two classes — 
 class A. who beg for the sake oi travelling, and whose chief 
 object is to arrive at a destination where they hope to obtain 
 work or friends, or the parish relief of their own union ; and 
 class B, who travel for the sake of beggiug, and whose chief 
 object is to go each day as short a distance as possible, 
 obtaining the necessaries of life in the workhouse at night, 
 and some bad luxuries by begging in the day. Our system will 
 be a great boon to the first, as they may make their best speed 
 to their destination without being called to exhaust their 
 strength in task work, and, having a certificate of honest travel, 
 they may be kindly treated by the way. But it would be most 
 distasteful to class B, as they must either travel at their best 
 pace, leaving little time to loiter or beg by the way, towards a 
 destination to which they do not care to arrive, or they must 
 do four hours work eveiy morning. 
 
 This system I still believe to be the one which will eventually 
 be found the most thoroughly repressive of vagrancy, because 
 if it be ever well carried out, it will trace the course and habits 
 of every vagrant, and the simple fact of his being known to the 
 authorities would destroy the pleasure and teuix^tation of a 
 vagrant life ; but for many reasons it did not succeed at the 
 time. In the first place, there were then no such meetings of 
 chairmen as we have here to-day. Each union worked by itself 
 and for itself, without either unanimity or uniformity. Some 
 had no means of giving work to vagrants at all ; and even 
 where they professed to give two hours' task (and few even 
 professed "to give more), it was found easier to let them shirk it 
 than to compel the vagrant to complete it. Another reason 
 appears absurd, yet it will be found to have very strong effect 
 on the general favour with which any new plan is regarded. 
 Vagrancy at the time this system was put in force was on a 
 rapid increase through England. But police, workhoust-
 
 46 
 
 masters, and others, only saw a new system tried and an 
 iucreiise of vagrancy at the same time, and took the increase 
 for the efifect of the new system, without remembering that it 
 increased more in counties where the system was not in force. 
 I am inclined to believe that vagrancy will never receive 
 a real tifoctual check till the measure is carried out 
 which has long beeu advocati d by some ol tlie ablest Poor Law 
 Inspectors — and was recommended to the House of Commons 
 by Sir Michael Beach, — viz., that the care of vagrants should 
 be removed entirely from the AVorkhouse and Poor-rate to the 
 Police and County-rate. Were this done— were the whole care 
 of tlie vagrants thrown on one united and disciplined 
 body, recei\ing the same treatment at whatever station they 
 came to, and traced with accuracy, from day to day, I have no 
 hesitation in saying that the professional vagrant would in 
 three years cease to exist. 
 
 The second system was commenced in Cumberland at the 
 instance of Mr. Duuue, the chief constable of that county. It 
 consisted in— 1st, the Justices in Quarter Sessions agreeing to 
 recommend to their brethren throughout the county a certain 
 fixed rate of punishment for every person who is found simply 
 begging, with generally an increased rate for anyone found 
 extorting money by threats or violence ; and 2ud, the police 
 looking out sharply to catch any who beg. This is perfectly 
 fair where the workhou>es receive all comers. None in this 
 case have any excuse for becging. In my own county it has 
 had an extraordinary effect. In most parts of the county my 
 friends tell me tliey have not seen a beggar for mouths — and 
 on the road from Bristol to Birmingham which passes my 
 house— probably in former days one of the most travelled roads 
 in England — a j)oor man or woman is occasionally seen hurry- 
 ing along the road, turning neither to the right nor to the left, 
 and appearing only anxious to get out of the county as soon 
 as possible. I am even told by those who have conversed with 
 a few that my name has not acquired popularity amongst them, 
 and that if Parliament should extend the franchise to them I 
 should, in spite of all the pains I have taken with them, not be 
 likely to be a successful camlidate. 
 
 But I must advert to a third system which appears to have 
 had extraordinary success, viz., that established by my friend 
 Captain Amyatt IBi'own, Chief Constable of Dorsetshire, which 
 so far as I understand, consists simply in letting a very small 
 sum be raised by subscription to give every vagrant an allow- 
 ance of bread at certain stages along his route. This is 
 certainly the simplest and the most purely unobjectionable 
 mode of dealing with vagrancy of which we have ever 
 heard, and its success is of peculiar interest to those 
 who make "The repression of e\il of any kind" their 
 study, as showing how frequently when the ntmost 
 vigoui fails on account of its over severity, a wise though 
 apparently trifling measure succeeds. The burnings, the 
 mutilations, and the hangings under the Edwards and Henrys 
 had no effect in diminishing vagrants, but the simply finding 
 them a small but sufficient allowance of bread has dimiiiislied 
 the number by one-half. Why ? Because the public were 
 shocked by the violent punishments, and therefore pitied, 
 sheltered, and encouraged them. Captain Amyatt Brown has 
 more wisely shown to the public that the vagrants were secure 
 of a sufficiency, and has ovisely again, as I think) allowed the 
 public to contribute this sufficiency. The public are quite 
 satisfied to give the little— they refuse to give more— and the
 
 47 
 
 beggars' trade is consequently at an end. The combined 
 action of the Poor Law and a well-reguh^ted charity secure 
 to him the necessaries of life, but prevent his gaining the 
 occasional and irregular superfluities, the hopes of which 
 form the uuheallhy temptation to a vagrant life. As a matter 
 of detail, the quantity ol bread which he can procure in Dorset 
 certainly appears to be excessive, being a pound of bread at 
 every live miles or somewhat more, and possibly some jiart of 
 this may go to feed the chickens of a beerhouse keeper in 
 exchange for drink. Still, tliere is no doubt, on the whole, 
 that the pl.in is sound in principle, and, that where the public 
 have ac luired a habit of indulging in tlje somewhat careless 
 and selfish luxury of giving to beggars, this is probably the 
 quickest and easiest mode of inducing them to relinquish it. 
 
 Several otlier counties have adopted systems compounded 
 more or less of the three former ones— viz., the way ticket, 
 the Cumberland, and toe Dorset system. In October, IfeTO, 
 the magistrates and chairmen of Guardians of Hampshire 
 agreed that every vagrant should be received, lodged, and fed 
 in the c.isual wards of each union, and if he states that he is 
 travelling to a certain destination he receives a way-ticket and 
 a piece of bread for luncheon. If he shows by this ticket ttiat he 
 has travelled a fair day's jonrney he is excused his task of 
 work the nest morning. The Cumberland system, i.e., the 
 enforcement of the Vagrant Act, is also adopted. 
 
 Berkshire adopted a nearly similar system in August, 1871, 
 except that the way-ticket does not appear to exempt him 
 from the task of work, but entitles him to 8 ozs. of bread at 
 the house of one of the coustables when he has performed 
 half his day's journey. The Cumberland system is here 
 enforced. Kent adopted the Dorset system in March, 1871, 
 and Wiltshire established that of Cumbeilaud in June, 1871. 
 
 All the later tried experiments appear to have had far stronger 
 statistical results than the earlier ones, but this, of course, is 
 only natural. In 1866 vagrancy was rapidly increasing, and at 
 that time a simple check to the increase in any county was a 
 success. In later years vagrancy has happily decreased, and 
 the success of a system must be shown by the number of 
 tramps diminishing faster there than in the general average of 
 the kingdom. 
 
 There is another subject on which, as having been suggested 
 for discussion, I must say a few words, in the hope of eliciting 
 more information from some of the gentlemen present, viz., 
 the subject of vagrant wards. 
 
 ^Ve have now several examples of such wards being divided 
 into separate rooms. The best examples of these are probably 
 those of Oswestry, Witney, and Shipston-ou-SLour. That at 
 Northleuch I can hardlj' quote as an example, because I fear 
 it is very rarely that such an opportunity is obtainable. We 
 happened to have in Gloucestershire several unused gaols 
 (owing to the lamentable falling off in our number of prisoners) 
 and one of these at Northleach being used as a police station, 
 the guardians obtained leave of the county to send their 
 vagrants to it. Of course, the vagrants having all the luxuries 
 of felons— spacious cells carefully warmed and ventilated, 
 abundant hot baths, bell for their servants and the like, are iu 
 a degree of luxuiy elsewhere unattainable, and therefore I 
 do not quote Northleach as an example to be followed by any 
 union except it be in a county afflicted like ours with a dearth 
 of prisoners. But the other three casual wards are fair, 
 examples for enquiry and imitation. Oswestry probably being
 
 48 
 
 the most complete and elaborate, Witney far the cheapest, and 
 yet, I believe, well workiiiR, and Sbipston-on-Stour the newest, 
 and therefore likely to possess the last improvements. 
 
 If I am asked for an opinion on the most effectual and 
 lastinc means of repressing vagrancy, I should say that the 
 princiiiles were simply— first, that all men, good or bi>d, 
 industrious or idle, sliould be quite secured from starvation ; 
 and, secondly, tb;it the public sbonld, even at considerable 
 cost of trouble and money, have it brongbt thorouglily home to 
 their feelings that all are so secured. Unless the public feeling 
 ciiu be thoroughly carried with us, all our eft'orts will be vain. 
 Tiiirdly, when the possible necessity for begging has ceased, all 
 beijgiirs sliould be prosecuted by an agreement regularly 
 entered into by the magistrates at their Quarter Sessions. 
 Fourthly, some certain task should be added to the relief 
 which will take oil' the temptation to a mere idle wandering 
 life, yet will not be sufl&ciently hai"d to excite the compassion 
 of even the ill-judging public. The recent orders of the Poor 
 L:iw Board, Nov. 22nd, attempt to effect this by specifying a 
 task of stone breaking or oakum picking, to be rigidly 
 enforced. This has put an end to the way-ticket portion of 
 the Hampshire plan. It remains to be seen whether it produces 
 any good result. On the other hand the way-ticket system, if 
 it could be ethciently carried out, would be more dreaded by the 
 professional idler than any task of work, because it would make 
 known his recent history and give clear proof of whether he 
 was idling or not. It is a truth beginning now to be i-ecognised 
 that in all classes of evil doers the mere knowledge of their habits 
 (not a guess at them but sound legal proof) deters them more 
 from a continuance in evil courses than even a severe punish- 
 ment. Our entire ignorance of the antecedents nitherto of 
 each vagrant has been the great difficulty in checking the 
 evil. The way ticket system, coupled witii an increased task 
 of work to those who do not choose to use the tickets, would 
 exactly give us this knowledge of antecedents, which would 
 enable us with justice and certainty to be very hard upon the 
 idle, while the few honest could always escape the penalty. 
 
 At the same time I doubt whether the way-ticket system 
 would ever receive a perfectly full and fair trial without the 
 earning out of that most important and valuable suggestion 
 made some years ago by Mr. Corbett (whom we are glad to see 
 among us to-day), and recommended by Sir Michael Beach 
 in the House of Commons— viz., " That the care and cost of 
 vagrants should be wholly transferred from the workhouse and 
 the poor rate to the police and the county rate." 
 
 If such a measure as this were curried out. while every 
 facility was given to labourers to travel in searcli of work, the 
 life of a mere idle vagrant would cease to be a temptation. 
 
 A conversation took place on the several facts and 
 opinions set forth in the paper. 
 
 This closed the proceedings of a most successful meeting. 
 
 WORCESTER : 
 PRINTED BY KN'IGHT AXD CO., CHRONICLE OFFICE, CROSS.
 
 
 ■ "m-0- 
 
 
 >•■.■• 
 
 • > 
 
 r-^+f: l!v.-*#- 
 
 ,»..-.