THE UNIVERSITY 
 
 OF ILLINOIS 
 
 LIBRARY 
 
 AGRJCULTURAL 
 UBRA8Y 
 
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 JED:3RAL milk COTC-ISSIOr POR ITEY/ El'CrLA]:^. 
 
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 Boston, 
 
 ^vovenlDer 22, 1918 
 
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 ChairiTian Allen [presiding] ; Secretary, Dr. Arthiu" V" 
 'al'cert . A qu r um iva s p r 3 s e n t . 
 
 Chairman ALL'HT'''^, in callings to order, said: The 
 hearing will come to order, Mr. Swan, do you want to present 
 your case? 
 
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 STAT:tj7TElTT 3Y ?CT^ . WILLI A"': U. 5¥AM. 
 
 I would like to say a few words, ''r. Chairman, yes. 
 
 Ttr. Chairman and gentlemen, this Commission has 
 been sitting, I helieve, for ahout a ysar, and, so far as 
 the consumers are concerned, I think those who are familiar 
 vvith the work of the Commission are ajrre^d that that work 
 has been done very conscientiously and v/ith some practical 
 results. In fact, from V7hat I tnow of the thinly, it appears 
 
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that you have accornplished more than any other similar Com- 
 mission in this country, or even in 'England, where the milk 
 question has "been more debated than here. If you have done 
 nothing m.ore than find out the actual cost of producinp; a 
 quart of milk and distrihutin^j it, we are a g'reat deal farther 
 ahead tlian we ever were before. 
 
 It seems, however, to the considers as if the time had 
 about arrived when they should have some more substantial 
 recognition than has been sho?m by t]ie attitude of tliis Com- 
 mission, in kespinp down the demands of the producers and the 
 distributors for a great deal hij^her prices than seem appar- 
 ently necessary. In other words, if the Commission had lis- 
 tened to or had eranted the m.aximum demand of both the dis- 
 tributors and the producers, we v/o'-iid have beer payinp- some- 
 where between twenty and twenty-five cents a quart for milk, 
 whereas, as it is novv, we are getting it for less than seven- 
 teen cents. •, • • ^ ..•. 
 
 I don't know v/hat ^'"r. Pattee expects to say to you 
 to-day or what the attorneys for the distributors VTill say, 
 but it is on the face of it apparent that they will ask for a 
 trifle more money and that after the first of Decem^ber we will 
 probably be asked to pay seventeen cents a quart for distributed 
 milk in Boston. 
 
 Tne consum^ers, I think the Comjnission will agree , have 
 supported the Commission rig-ht straight thrcun-h v/ith the sazae 
 loyalty with which they have bou.">;t Liberty bonds or sub- 
 scribed to the P-ed Cross. In other words, they have paid the 
 constantly increasing prices for milk and have, with the ex- 
 ception of comparatively few cases, kept up their takings 
 
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apparently withoiit any protest. In fact, except for the 
 few wea]r words of ^ayself , I believe scarcely anybody has 
 hati come up hare and made any sort of protest or even remark 
 as to these milk prices. 
 
 'But, as I say, the time seems to be rapidly approach- 
 ing when these consiimers should have a trifle more consid- 
 eration. The endinr- of the war will undoubtedly release 
 some labor, and, while it m.ay be true that those farm hands 
 who went to the m.unition ijla^nts T/ill not like to j^o back to 
 the farms and wcrk twelve, thirteen, and fourteen hours a 
 day, when they have been getting good pay for only eight 
 hours, and have been down here enjoying all the attractions 
 of the city, yet it is said by emploj-inent managers that many 
 of the boys who have been in active service abroad may like 
 something of the quiet farm life as a contrast to their ac- 
 tivities at the front. At any rate, there should be an 
 increase in. farm labor v/ithin the next six months. I am 
 also infonned by the manager of the State Sm_plo;>T3ient Associa- 
 tion tiiat during the past year, in spite of the cry of the 
 farmers that they v/ere unable to obtain help, the applications 
 for farm help at tliS.t office on Kneeland Street have been 
 less diiring the past year than in any year since the office 
 Vi^as established. . _. -■■ 
 
 Whether the price of feed will also shoViT a reduction 
 because of the end of the v/ar is sometliing Vih^ich I am not 
 particularly familiar with, but there is certainljr som.ething 
 to be hoped for in thiat line. _...,.,., , ... .. 
 
 In any event, it seems as if, with a ma^ximaim price 
 of seventeen cents in December, the top price, in }:oston at 
 
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least, v/culd te reached, and that the consumers ought to have 
 some reduction or he ahle to loot forward to sorne reduction 
 ahout the first of .January or perhaps the first of Pehruary. 
 
 The point I want to hrinf? out ?^.ore especially is 
 that, while this Commission has undouT?tedly done excellent 
 m'ork in ascertaining: the cost of producing a quart of milk 
 and distrihut. inrr it, it seems to me the general puhlic will 
 ask the Com.mission to fo for-yard still farther and set up 
 som.e constructive S3."stem_ of handling the miljc situation 
 for the henefit of the consizmer . 
 
 '^'^.'hether these figures Dr. '^-ilhert has hers have gone 
 sufficiently far to show whether there are v;asteful methods 
 in m.ilk production and milk distribution, I am, of course, 
 unaTole to say. That is entirelj- up to the Comro.ission . It 
 7rould seem that tlie Commission had some frood, active work 
 hefore it in pointing out to the producers and distributors 
 som.e methods of more econom.icallj" carrying on their husi- 
 nessj tut if the Comi^dssion could go farther, for instance 
 in the matter of milk distribution, and establish here in 
 Boston a system "by which m_ilk would he distrihuted, some- 
 what on the hasis, we will say, of a system, of vvater distri- 
 hution, wherehy the m.ilk should flow into the city through 
 great m.ain arteries and he distributed from central milk 
 
 stations, with the idea that the different distrihutors here 
 
 it 
 should pool all their interests, ,^ would seein as if som.ething 
 
 in that line might he done for the henefit of the consumers. 
 
 It has heen said hy som.e that the present method of dis- 
 
 trihuting milk is as economical a m^^thod as is possihle, 
 
 hu.t to the averap-e consLimer it would seern. as if it were a 
 
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very wasteful method to have h^lf a dozen Tnillc wap:ors f^o 
 rollinp; through one street, and the thoufrht sug-gests itself 
 that the Oommission mie-ht find out, or sone CoTrmiission similar 
 to this, whether it mip-ht not he feasihle to establish cen- 
 tral stations fro'n whicji the milk could he handled here in 
 Boston. I think something of the kind is heinf^ attempted 
 in Rrockton, hut, as far as other cities in the country are 
 concerned, it v.'culd seem, from the reports in the papers as 
 though very little was heing done along that line. On the 
 other hand, there seems to he in those other cities far great- 
 er dispute "between the distrihutors and the producers than 
 there is in T^oston. In other words, the work of this Con- 
 miission seem.s to have gone farther and to have been pro- 
 ductive of hetter results than that of similar CoEimissions 
 in other pa.rts cf the United states. But if this Comm.ission 
 can assure the puhlic that it is going- to extend its activ- 
 ities and is looking a little farther ahead towards the es- 
 tahlishment of a little more econom.ical system of milk dis- 
 tribution tlian is now heinc carried on. by half a dozen dif- 
 ferent dealers, it seem.s to me it would give the public great- 
 er confidence in the Comjnission. 
 
 I think comparatively few people are aware of what 
 excellent v/ork you have done and of how very much nearer we 
 are to-day to finding the actual cost of distributing milk 
 than we otherwise would be, by reason of your labor. Some 
 , of the papers are still h_ammering you and are still hammer- 
 ing the producers and the distributors, and axs clai'-iing 
 ! th^.t there is a milk trust. '?'hey feel that we are paying too 
 ' much for milk and that the producers are sending in a very 
 
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the 
 poor quality of milk. Those familiar wj.th Tousinese know 
 
 very wall that the quality of milk, as a rule, holds ri|crht 
 up to the ^Massachusetts standard, e.vd is usually -nuch hetter 
 than the 3.5 per cent, required. They also realize that 
 the farmers are sending in a very large anount and that you 
 are working; hard for the estahlislTment of a system for 
 handling the surplus, a prohlem. which to a msra layman seems 
 so complicated that comparatively'- few of us understand what 
 it really means; hut we have sixfficient confioence in the 
 Comm.ission to feel that what it is doinp- is heing done for 
 the henefit of all the parties involved in this very interest- 
 ing question. 
 
 It is apparent that the farmers, despite their cry 
 for help, are receiving' a wonderfully'- his-h price for m.ilk. 
 The records from "'r. Pattee's office show that five or six 
 years ago the farmer was receiving in the neighhorhood of 
 two and one half cents a quart at the barn door for the 
 country station, where to-day he is getting eirht cents a 
 quart for a trifle more in the region of the highest pro- 
 duction, which means an increase of more than two hundred per 
 cent, in the price of milk to the producer. It would seem 
 as though there v/ere comparatively few commodities that have 
 shown such a tremendous rise as milk, and, while it is ad- 
 mitted that the consigner has had to pay only about one hundred 
 per cent, advance, yet t}]e producer has certainly benefited 
 wondsrfiaiy through the establishment of prices by the Com- 
 mission. 
 
 It is undoijbtedly true that tlie cost of feed, labor 
 and other things, has increased, but the fact that the greater 
 
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mjrnber of dairy men in Vermont to-day are haulins; their milTc 
 from the farm tg the country station in autoraohile trucks, 
 and are apparently in a very prosperous condition, would 
 seem to s}iow that these hif?h prices have been a distinct 
 "benefit to them. 
 
 As I have said, what the consumers would like to see 
 is some rift in this cloud, as ycu "licrht say, of rising- prices, 
 or some chance ahead whereby they may h-^ve an opportunity of 
 payinc something less for "nilk than they have been payin?^ for 
 the last four or five years . 
 
 I think that is about all I have to say, ^"^r. Chainnan . 
 
 Com. BIRD. ¥.r . Swan, I think you said that there 
 has been an advance of about one hundred per cent, to the con- 
 sijcner between the time when the Commission started and the 
 present time. I believe there has been an advance of only 
 forty per cent . . . . .. 
 
 Mr. SWA''. I did not say, since the Comj5iissiGn start- 
 ed. I said that about five years a^o the producer received 
 in the neif^hborhood of two and one half cents a quart at the 
 country station in the region of the highest, heaviest pro- 
 duction, central ''.''ermont, and that to-day the price paid to 
 him at the country station is somewhere in the neicrhborhood 
 of eight cents, or betv^resn seven and one half and eight cents 
 a quart, which, as you see, fip-ures something over two hundred 
 per cent, increase in the last five years. In that same 
 period the increase to the consumer has been about one hundred 
 per cent. That is, for the milk sold five years aso the con- 
 siffiier paid about eight cents a quart, and he is paying to-day 
 about sixteen cents a quart. 
 
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 Oom. EIRD. I beg pardon. I thought you ware re- 
 ferring to an advance since the Coimnission had come into 
 existence . 
 
 ¥r, SWAfT. Fo. I admit that since the Commission 
 took hold the increase has not heen more than thirty or 
 forty per cent . 
 
 Chairman AXIliT'i. i am sure the Commission feels 
 grateful, ''r. Swan, for the kind words you have said as to 
 the intention of the Commission. 
 
 Mr, SWAj-t. I think the Commission h^s tried to deal 
 '.vith this very intricate prohlem very loyally and -^erir ear- 
 nestly, and 'vith a spirit of fairness to all hands. I do not 
 think that the public has s'tff iciently realized that. Toe- 
 cause they are not perhaps fam_iliar with the work of the Com- 
 mission in keeping down virhat migiit have been som.e very ex- 
 cessive prices, if the Comjnission had not acted. 
 
 Chairman ALLU". We are also very glad to get 
 your sugcresticns in regard to som.e constructive effort. 
 We have the figures put in yesterda:' before the exec^^tive 
 comjnittee for the various malk distributors, and if there is 
 any question row to be asked about those figures we virill be 
 glad to take them. up. ' 
 
 ^"^r. Cl'SICK, Did you mean, as far as the dealers 
 are concerned? 
 
 Chairman ALLM . Yes. ''■Ve will hear the dealers 
 first, this morning. 
 
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STATTg'riJlI'TO]? JOEIT g. CUSIGK, Esq. 
 
 I'r. CUSICIC, Mr. Chairman, I want to say this. 
 We put in our firrures as rearly in accordance with what so^ie- 
 Toody calls the Eihle, what I call tha Sool: of hsvelat ions , 
 which I tliink is nearer to it, as possihle, and vye ha-ve now 
 got a copy of the sliest sent hy li. ?. hood c-. Sen. That 
 does not conioi'n v/ith the raquirsments of t>is cost ac- 
 counting. I have ,-i ust he en takinT it up witli L'r . Sears. 
 I did "ct have the ti^e to take it up with him hefcre. 
 These fif-'ires put in. by h. F. Hood 6: Son cannot be cheched 
 up co!^.paratively with our firrures. This is a matter that 
 affects not only us, but the Eonrd. If you vvili lo olc at 
 the sheet they have subruitted, you will see that their 
 figure brins-s the total cost, assembled under the direc- 
 tions of t}:e Comraission -- that is, und^^r the method pro- 
 vided by the Commission -- down to .06712. The Alden 
 Company sheet for September, as furnished under this direc- 
 tion, indicH.tes a total expense of ,08279; the Consolidated 
 Whitingr sheets indicate a cost of .08469. There is no 
 doubt in my mind, from a ci.irsory vier: of t]-is sheet of 
 the Hood Company, that probably som.e error or mistake 
 has been made in it. It has been submitted to our ac- 
 countants, and they think, too, that there has probably 
 been som.e mistake ma.de, or else that all ti:e items required 
 under the Ecard's methods have r^ox been figured. That 
 is only sruessvvrork, and I cannot tell you clearly about it, 
 in the absence of the second sheet recpjired by ti'is Com.- 
 mAssion. That sh^et is rot here. The importance of 
 
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10 
 
 that to the dealers can be very readily seen. 3very sheet 
 
 that tends to represent the cost of the assertihling or de- 
 
 liverins of a quart of r'lilk that is produced Toefore this 
 
 C oTTuni s si on is evidence, has some hearinp; on the price which 
 
 you make. It is entirely proper, if you ass\»ne that the 
 
 Kood Gonpany has followed the requirements of the methods 
 
 you have sue;frested, that you should in the first instance 
 
 give as much vieip-Jit to the Mood accounts as you would to the 
 
 '^-'hiting accounts or anybody's else. Eut , in view of the 
 
 fact that they, have not complied with this accounting method, 
 
 there is no possible way to check the thing up and detect an 
 
 actual mistake, if one v;a8 made. So I ask the Commission to 
 
 riile , before these figures are dicussed or before they are 
 
 received in evidence, that all the com.panies comply with the 
 
 requirements of the Commission. I will call your attention 
 
 to page 2 of the Pook of Revelations: 
 
 be kept 
 
 "The distributor's records shslL^with sufficient 
 particularity to show fully the facts pertaining to 
 all entries made in the accounts provided herein. 
 If the full information is not recorded in the general 
 books, the entries therein shall be supported by 
 other records in wliich the full details shall be 
 shown. "^he general book entries shall contain suf- 
 ficient reference in detail records to perm.it ready 
 identification, and the detail records shall be 
 filed in such manner as to be readily accessible for 
 examination b.3^ representatives of the re)?ional railk 
 corn-mission. " 
 
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 I read into that that those records, of course, 
 should be accessible to examination in everything except 
 the particulars of the investment accounts, which was an 
 independent nilinjo; of the Commission, to the representatives 
 cf the other companies. I feel that this is simply a mistake. 
 I cannot tell in regard to that until the detail figuring 
 and the second sheet are produced. I ask tha.t the Com- 
 
 mission rule that these accounts, before they are received 
 in evidence, conform with the requirements of the Commission's 
 order and that the com.panies be ordered so to ad^iust their 
 accounts and file them, whereupon each company may have ac- 
 cess to those accounts and may then make a definite suggestion 
 in regard to the matter if any error or any discrimination 
 appears in them. That is the only practical way in which 
 
 we can get at the matter. This sugp-estad system seems to 
 be all right. You may have to make some m.od if ications in 
 the interest of sim.plicity. But this is the first time it 
 has been us-^d, and, understand, we have gone to tremendous 
 expense and work to make an account consistent with the re- 
 quirements of the Commission. "^''e have had at least one of 
 Scovell c: Wellington's men, and sometimes two, at each 
 plant for several v;eeks. \''e have been handicapped, because 
 ■'Cr. Gushing, who had charge cf this, was drafted, v;as about 
 to be sent to camp, and had made all his preparations to go, 
 being obliged to stop the work which he had started, where- 
 upon the Vellington firm took it up. Then the armistice 
 was signed and '"r. Cushinc was sent back, to be met with the 
 influenza, from which he and his family suffered. "o we 
 

 
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 have had tremendous difficulty and have jjone to great ex- 
 pense to e-et these definite, allocated figures hefore this 
 Commission, It means a lot to us. If we were to leave the 
 matter to stand as it is, it :mie'ht well "be arp-ued hy you that, 
 if we did not attack those fi/rures, in the interest of the puh- 
 lie you would have a ris^ht to "base your figr'ares on the cost 
 of the lov/er firm, under this system. 
 
 Chairman ^LIJ^'' . I think it is quite clear to the 
 Commission . 
 
 Mr -CilSICE. Yer-y good. 
 
 Chairman ALmTT, Te would like to hear from "r. 
 Sears. I understand that '''r. Cusick has raised the question 
 of one sheet not having "been filed with the Commission, a 
 sheet comparahle with others that have he en filed. Win you 
 he ahle to file that Yery soon, '"r. Sears? 
 
 ^Hr. SEAjiS. Fr. T'illett says he will he ahle to file 
 that . 
 
 Mr. MILLETT, It will mean a duplication of work. I 
 will get it cut as soon as I can. It will he a few days. 
 
 T'-j.. SSAES. Mr. ^''illett says he will have it in a few 
 da3''s, '''^r. Chairman. I want to say, in regard to these 
 
 figures, that the position of the "'liiting Company is a little 
 different from that of li. ?. Hood "^ ^ons, in this respect, 
 that the suhcoramittee who had the question of accounting in 
 charge employed a firm of accountants who had heen working 
 upon and preparing the figures of the Whiting hooks ever 
 since this Commission was started. ?o it has heen a simpler 
 matter for these same accountants to prepare the figures on 
 the lines upon which they wanted to have the information 
 

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 than it has been for ^"r . "^illett, who has been his own ac- 
 countant, with the regular office force. ^"r. ^'^illett feels 
 very sorry that he has not been able to have those figures 
 here to-day, but he will have thein here as soon as possible. 
 I do not know anything about the difference in costs between 
 the lil'Mting Companies and the *lden Conpany, and H, P. Hood 
 *: Sons. I presume there will be some difference in their 
 costs. 
 
 Mr. CUSICK. Surely there will, but not that dif- 
 ference . 
 
 ■"^r. SE.ARS. I would be surprised if there were not 
 a difference . 
 
 ^'r. CUSICK. '^'r. Chairman, .just in order to place 
 the ■'ATiiting Company in a proper position in connection with 
 what "r. Sears h^s said as to the employment of Scovell & 
 ^'/ellington, as I understand it, and I know it is true, 
 finally, before this present system was adopted bj-- the Com- 
 mission all the accountants got together -- V^r. Millett, 
 representing the '^ood Company, ''r. P.imbach, representing the 
 Alden Company, and ^^^r .Raymond, representing the V'Mting 
 Companies. They had opportunities to sro into, and did as 
 a matter of fact go into, this entire system, and I under- 
 stood that it was entirely agreed to before it was presented 
 to the Commission the last time. Fow, whether the Commission 
 changed any of it or not, I am not informed; but all these 
 men had an equal opport,unity to understand this system. The 
 only difference between the '"hiting Company and the others 
 is that from the start, the V/hiting Company, as a matter 
 of business policy, has considered that it was wise to have 
 
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14 
 
 its ■bookkeeping reformed consistently with this classifica- 
 tion, "because they think it is a t^ood thinp;, and we have 
 "been attempting to do that. That is the only difference, 
 so far as T know, "between the different concerns. We have 
 
 not completed that classification of our hooks, and it will 
 he some time before we do so. V^e have to pick out from 
 different accounts, the same as the others do, at this time . 
 
 Chairman ALLE>^. I understand that there has been 
 no objection from the Hood Company to following the uniform 
 system of accounting suggested? 
 
 Mr. SEARS, Mr. Chairman, there is this ob.iection, -- 
 that is, there has been this misunderstanding:, Mr. Cusick 
 says there was a meeting of the accountants. I suppose he 
 refers to a meeting with the subcommittee, at which the ac- 
 countanis were present, where a report of Scovell fc '^velling- 
 ton Company was gone over? 
 
 Mr. CUSICK. Ko, I did not mean that. They had 
 meetinp-s at my office, day after da,y, ^o^oing throuch the whole 
 thing, and agreed upon conditions. I think they must have 
 had meetings half a dozen times. Isn't that right, '"r. 
 Raymond? 
 
 Mr. RAYI'^OTvT). That is about right, yes. 
 
 Mr. SEAKS, \^ell, wherever there was a meeting, I 
 understand that there was a certain agreement, and that the 
 second sheet sent out by the subcommittee, according to '"r . 
 I''illett's recollection, was not in accordance with what the 
 accountants agreed upon. I speak of this not because H, P. 
 Hood & Sons are unwilling to furnish the information as the 
 
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15 
 
 Commission wants it, but simply as "bearing upon ^'^r. Cusick's 
 statement that it was all agreed to, exactly what they 
 would do, and that they knew in advance exactly what was to 
 he done. 
 
 Chairman ALLE'^^. I think it is unnecessary to p:o 
 farther with that, if your company can furnish the figures 
 within three or four days, as ■"r. ^Ullett says he thinks he 
 can do . 
 
 T'Tr. ■'aLLlTT. Just as soon as possihla. 
 
 ■""r. !^EARS. He says that he will do so just as soon 
 as it can he done. 
 
 Chairman «lLL®t. What date will that mean? 
 
 ^'^r, '"^ILLETT. I am sorry to say that I cannot say, 
 exactly. I wish I could. I woke up to the fact that this 
 second sheet was somewhat different from the first one. 
 It m.eans in our case duplication, troinp' through our entire 
 records from the /?round up. It took us two weeks to ^et up 
 thefirst. I don't think this would take two weeks, hut may- 
 he a week. 
 
 Chairman ALIW^ , It m.ay he heside the point, "bxxt why 
 didn't you work out the two sheets to!?ether? 
 
 Hr. '^TLLETT. As a matter of fact, I was slow 
 in the matter, I ffuess, '''r, Chairman. It was a poor .joh 
 on mj'" part . 
 
 Chairman ALLSI^". Well, v;e will forgive you that if 
 you finally p-et it ri<?ht . 
 
 ■'■r. T-'ILLETT, I feel the thin:^^ very keenly, "r. 
 Chairman . - ■ 
 
 Chairman AJ.LEt:", i suppose there is no chance for 
 
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 16 
 
 furthar discussion of the T»iat.ter at this tirne . 
 
 Com. PIED. I think there is, ■'!'r. Chairman. 
 
 Chairman jMLE^v, The Comm.is si oners have some ques- 
 tions they would like to ask. '''r. ^'^illett, will you please 
 take the stand'' 
 
 H^T^RY Q,. ^"^LLIilTT, Sworn. 
 
 [By Com. Bird] ^-r . '''allett, in the sheet that you suhmit 
 to the Commission on the cost per quart you s-ive as the 
 averap-e sellin;? price on family milk .14715? A. Yes. 
 Just how did you arrive at that, when the Commission's price 
 is 15 cents? A. Our sales include sales in markets out- 
 side of 3^oston. In two or three of those the selline- price 
 in the month of Septemher was lower than the loston price, 
 and, therefore, our averafre selling price was a trifle 
 I lower than the Boston sellinp- price. The actual fip-ure I 
 can p-et for you. 
 Q, I [By Mr. Cusick] This is only for the Boston market? 
 I cannot untangle those, offhand. 
 
 [By Com. Bird] '■; ■ . I notice thmt under your assemhlins- 
 
 costs you do not enter any laboratory expense. A. I he;^ 
 pardon. It is under the head of buying, inspecting and 
 laboratory. 
 
 Then, that is under the country charge? You cl-iarge all the 
 laboratory to the country end of the business? A, We do. 
 The book of revelations, as ''r. Cusick calls it, provides 
 that the laboratory expense may be distributed in accordance 
 

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 with the ideas of the indiTidual dealer. V.e char^re all of 
 ours into the country, and you 'aIII notice that we carry 
 none of that item under the head of city expense. 
 
 Q, I noticed that, and wondered whether it was an omission or 
 
 whether it meant that the country end of the husinesB "bore all 
 the laboratory expense. A. Broadly spealcine, we have looked 
 at the laboratory exj-jense in that way, and have so treated it, 
 as a country expense. That is the result of our experience 
 and judc-ment . 
 
 Q, I notice that under the city expense there is no charge for 
 short as-e at all. A, \7e keep no such account. That is pro- 
 vided for in the "booir, also. 
 
 Q, Don't you have any shorta^-e in connection with drivers, and 
 so forth*? A. '''hat ever loss we make in that way, if it is a 
 shortaR-e of milk, we include in our shrinkage figures. It 
 appears there or under had debts, with us, appears in one 
 place or the other. That, I think, is alsc in accordance 
 with the provisions. 
 
 Q Then, you have an item here of miscellaneous ex-pense, under 
 city experise. A, Yes, sir. 
 
 0. Y.'e will have to fro hack to the hook of revelations, ar-ain? 
 
 A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, And I would refer you to the second page, which says: "Any 
 expenses not covered by the followini? items shall he included 
 under Miscellaneous, hut a statement shall accompany the re- 
 port givinp: in detail all items incltided therein." A. So 
 it should, :■. 
 
 Q, Will you f^ive 'is that statement? A. I will o-ire you that 
 
 statement when I make the report. It will he a small item.. 
 
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 There are some items li^<:e car fares and telephone charges, 
 that do not seem to "be provided for otherwise. 
 
 Q Under your "Loss from had dehts," which also hears part of 
 your shortan-e, I notice that the only had de"Hts you have 
 at all are on the family trade. Are there no had dehts 
 in connection with, stores, hotels, and restaurants? Are 
 they all crood pay? A. Well, they are not ^necessarily all 
 ^ood pay, hut we maTce a very sm.all loss, so sm.all that it 
 would take lower decimal fir^ures than there are here to 
 show it . 
 
 Q, The reason why I speak of it is that I notice the other 
 dealers all have had dehts for the different classes of 
 trade, and I thoue-ht that perhaps you were exceptionally 
 
 fortunate. A. Tell, perhaps we are. - .-^ ■--..- 
 
 Chairman ALLE^J, Any other qiiestions? .■■ 
 ' [Fo response.] ....... ^ , , 
 
 0, [By Chairman Allen] Mr. Millett, car you give us the 
 
 date when you can make this return? We have to pla.n to 
 have another meeting of the Commission, ^'-h^at is the date 
 when you will have your figures in? A, When did you want 
 to m_eet? 
 
 Q, ¥/e want to meet hefore the first of Decemher. A, Well, 
 
 I am in hopes of heinr ahle to get the thing out in a few 
 days, working Saturday afternoon, Sunday, and so forth, hut 
 I would dislike to m^ake a prom.ise I couldn't keep. 
 
 Q, Will you have it the IJ'riday after Thanksgiving? A. Yes. 
 
 Q, Surely? A. Yes; prohahly hefore. 
 
 Mr. CUSICK. I would like to call attention to a 
 statement made hy ''"r, ""'1'illett', and perhaps we ought to hf^ve 
 

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 the same understood here now. I understand that this cost 
 accoimtinfT required "by the ComTnission refers only to that 
 section, Boston, for which you are row malcinp- the prices. 
 I would siTiiply liTce to say that if ^^r. ^"illett h^s included 
 his sales all over '^■''ew Hampshire and everywhere else out- 
 side of this section, no other concern is doini? that, So 
 that had hetter he straip^htened rip-ht out. I understand 
 that yon cannot p-et coiT^parahle costs upon which to "base 
 price fixing here, the Boston prices, if there are rroii^r- to 
 he put in expenses in Portsmouth, '"^ew Hampshire, and at 
 other i^oints in '^^ew -HaTnpshire where the Hood concern is 
 doinjt husiness. I do not care, hut I am only callinr to 
 your attention, fentlerren, the fact that the figures, in 
 order to he of any benefit at all, should he comparahle. 
 We have only fissured our business under the Boston prices, 
 and, of course, if another concern fisrures differently, 
 that will make a difference. The understanding here, as I 
 understood it, was that this cost sheet should relate only 
 to the Boston prices and to the cities and towns covered by 
 the price fixinrr in i^-reater Boston. 
 
 [By Com. Bird! '^r. ^'^illett, is this applicable also to 
 your cost for distribution? A. Yes. 
 
 Is your cost for distribution for these other cities lower 
 than it. is in Boston? A. It is a very little lower, yes. 
 That would h^ve a tendency, then, to reduce yovr costs for 
 distribution? A. To some slight extent, yes. 
 [By Chairman Allen] ''"'ow, '"^r. '^''illett, can you reduce your 
 fip:i;j-es to Boston? A. I don't think I can, ^'r. Chairman. 
 
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20 
 
 The 'business is handled as a whole, in rnany vv'ays. As a 
 practical matter, I don't Vnow how to disentangle that 
 "business ir the outside cities. 
 
 Well, what the Commissior^ has had in nind, what it wanted, 
 you know, was ?oston figrures? A. I don't suppose I ever 
 gave it any particular thought, in that respect, that that 
 'yas what you wanted, and I don't know how to get at it. 
 It may he the Commission's fa^;.lt that the thing was not 
 definitely understood, hut I still think those ar° the 
 figi.ires we shoi'ld have. A. I shall not put the responsi- 
 hility on the Conmissior for not so statin-r it. The m^is- 
 understanding was undouhtedly on rny part. Put I don't know 
 jiow to e-et at i+ , don't know how to disentangle many items 
 of our expense accounts from the Poston husiness. There- 
 
 fore, as I think I have stated at different times, this 
 covers our whole ^ilk distrihutino- husiness. - . 
 
 Couldn't you rive us the cost of distrihutin?? in other 
 places, so that from, thst we could arrive st som^e firure 
 for Soston? A. I could, prohahly m.ake a n-eneral statem.ent, 
 hut I don't know how definitely the statem.ent I could file 
 would cover that. I would state irenerally that prohahlj- 
 the cost of distrihution in the other cities vdll B,vera.f^e 
 a quarter of a cent less than in Boston. -. • 
 You do ■"ot keep a separate profi-*" and loss statem.ent for 
 Worcester, for instance, or whatever the city m^ay he? 
 Only partially so. 
 
 Comm.. E. yc; PM-L , Of course, this statement is worth- 
 less for any comparative purposes as made up, ertireljr 
 worthless, when compared with the statem.e^^ts of people w!io 
 
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21 
 
 are makincr statements on other lines. 
 
 'Tr, CIJSIO'. We are willing to have '^"'orcester in- 
 cluded. That is all rirht , if you wish, so as to have 
 the thinp- on all fours. But outside of the state we 
 couldn't do it. 
 
 ^Tr. ^^LLETT. Worcester? 
 
 Mr. CUSICK. Yes. You menti oned -'orcester , 
 or it has heen mentioned. 
 
 ^"r. "'TILLETT. I recopnize the situation, hut the 
 fact is that we are doing husiness in these other jjlaces, 
 and it is eiII one husiness. 
 
 Chairman .AT^LE^''. I don't see how v/e can use those 
 fiiTMres for settling Eoston prices at all, as conparahle 
 witli the other sheets suhmitted hy the other distrihutors, 
 who have confined themselves ahsolutely to "'Boston delivery. 
 
 Hr. ^'^ILLETT. I presume that, is so, ""r. Chairman. 
 It is a situation v/hich, I am sorry to say, I don't see 
 how v/e can help, because v/e are doinp; husiness in those 
 places. \''e are huyinp- milk in lum.p , if }/ou please, and 
 many of our records kept in our Boston office shov/ the 
 business as a whole. .•••.._ 
 
 Chairman AJ,le^t. Isn't that also true of the 
 If^iting Company, that they are doing business in a number 
 of places? , ■. .. . 
 
 '^'r. ^'^ILLETT. I cannot say how true it is of the 
 Whitinp; Com.pany. • - . ■ 
 
 Chairm-an ALLET^. They m.ust >iave segregated their 
 figures in some wa;/". 
 
 Mr. SE.AP.S . Aren't there "'"ore ester unices in the 
 
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fif^^ures as su"bmitted. loy yo^xr client, ^'r. Cusiclc, put in here 
 as Boston firures? 
 
 T'Tr. CUSICLC, The Worcester prices are weighted, in 
 some way, and there are no definite sheets to shov; it. But 
 take cjr signer "business, for instance, in ^"antasket and other 
 places, that is rot included in the Boston prices. Vie have 
 teen getting sixteen or seventeen cents a qi.iart , where the 
 prices here would he fifteen and sixteen. That is all eli-n- 
 inated from our accountinrr, hecause it could rot be com.parahle 
 with your Boston prices. I cannot say what t]^ey have done, 
 as far as '^"orcester is concerned, hut I understand that they 
 have W9ip;hted it in some way. But all other places have 
 heen fifrured en the theory set forth Yvere "Hy the Corirnission . 
 Aside fron '^'''orcest sr , we hiS.ve no other places except the tov/ns 
 and cities involved here in this hearing:, 
 
 ■'■'^r. SEAES . Of course, that makes the "^'^hitins account 
 a good deal simpler. 
 
 T.'r, ClTSICF:. ■^'^0 . '"e have other places that we have 
 eliminated. '...'.'' 
 
 ^■'r» FTfiAES. I didn't know you had. 
 
 !'.Tr. CUSICK. Yes. For instance, we have Providence, 
 we have ^Tantasket, and we have that place outsiae of O.uincy, 
 that sum^.er place, Hou?rh' s '^^eck, where we have some dozen 
 routes, hut on a different fip;ure fro?:i^ wh^tyou Tuake here. As 
 a matter of fact, the Commission will prohally recall, in 
 regard to the price made for Kouph's ''eck, that v.-e came hefore 
 the Coinraission to ask your consent on the thine:. Those 
 places we have tal<:en out and eliminated from cur cost account- 
 inff sheet, "^"^r . Wellington perhaps can tell you ahout the 
 
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23 
 
 thing, how they do that, "better tlmn I can. 
 
 Chairrnan AI-LS^-'^. I think we would all like to know. 
 Tha.t "borders on a school of accounting. 
 
 ^'r. C'ISICK. He is a good teacher, I p-uess. 
 
 Chairman ALIE?^. I don't douht it. But the fact 
 remains that these figures and the figures ■'■'''r. ?'^illett was 
 going home to work on, ^len he got them all done, wo'ild not 
 be worth anything- to this Com^mission from the comparative 
 standpoint . ::■•,•..■ 
 
 ^^r. CUSICK. ^^c. .- . . . . , : 
 
 ChairTiian ALLS^"". T'^ow, I don't know that we should 
 sit as a court of ,iudgment too much, tut it simply puts the 
 Commission in a position of net heme- ahle to use the Hood 
 figures. 
 
 Q, [5y Comm. ^-urdock] How much of a joh m'ould it he, "r. ^"il- 
 lett, to ffxake up a set of fie-ures that could "be com.pared 
 vath the Vhiting figures? A., I presume to say that "r. 
 
 Wellington, for instance, or some good expert accountant, 
 mie:ht he ahle to do that. I don't know. Personally, v.'ith 
 me it is not a question of how m.uch of a .1 oh it is, because 
 I am not enough of an accoixntant, no matter how hig or lit- 
 tle one I may he, to know how to do it . I don't krow how 
 to untangle them so as to make a fair showing. 
 
 Chairman ALLS?t. Then, perhaps, it is fair to assume 
 that Mr. Sears could ansvyer that. I think you will realize, 
 Mr. Saars, the burden is put on the Hood Company, because 
 of not really com.plying with the request of the Comm.ission, 
 which, after raany sessions, had agreed that it could not do 
 anything until it had a uniform system of accounting, under 
 
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24 
 
 which the figures of the diffarent concerns could be com- 
 pared. It puts the Hood Company in the position of not 
 complyinpr with the request of the GoTnislssion in regard to 
 these fi.o-ures, I thi^k, if any question came up, the Hood 
 Company should have said, "We cannot do this, cannot rive 
 you the figures as you wish the^." As it is, somebody has 
 "been to a lot of vrork, and we have not Pcot an.ywhere . 
 
 ^Tr. SF.kTS. All I can say, Mr. Chairm.an, is that we 
 are very sorry tliis has happened. It is a condition, how- 
 ever, that confronts us, and all I can say is tliat if it is 
 a possible 
 
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 thing, with the Hood books, to get these figure?, they will "be 
 submitted to the Comraission. But I will agree with you that 
 if the fact that certain outside businesses — like the busi- 
 ness of Manchester and Lawrence — are included in these fig- 
 ures so destroys their value that they are useless for pur- 
 poses of comparison, then, whatever consequence there is attach- 
 ed to that fact ttie Hood Company has to bear, that is all. 
 But I agree with you, also, that there isn't any use in Mr. 
 Millett spending several days to get up further figures on this 
 same basis or requiring the members of the Commission to come 
 in again in order to receive figures which they now consider 
 of no value. In a general v/ay, the voliome of business that 
 H. P. Kood & Sens does outside of Boston is not great enough 
 to account for the discrepancy, the difference between H. P. 
 Hood & Sons' figures and the Whiting figures, as I believe. 
 Isn't that true, Mr. Millett? 
 
 Mr. MILLETT. As I say, it might be a quarter of a cent 
 less for the other places, which, taking the v^hole volume, 
 wouldjnake a very small difference. 
 
 (By Mr. Sears.) Are there any other places besides Lawrence 
 and Manchester where you sell milk, outside of the control of 
 this federal Regional Milk Board-"? A. 'We sell milk at 
 Providence, but I am not quite sure of the status of Provi- 
 dence. I understand tiiat the Comrnission made prices at Pro- 
 vidence, but I don't knO¥/ just how. 
 
 The figures there are about the same? A. It probably costs 
 as much or more to do business there than in Boston. 
 And how large would be th3 total volume of your Manchester and 
 Lav/rence business? -- I mean, compared with your whole business, 
 as shown on this sheet? A. Under ten per cent. I cannot 
 
- . . , . *iv7 ,^rri::'.^ 
 
 -.. . . — ssaaeniaud e.bisox/o . . ■ ^oal «fU "ix 
 
 i3"vtij si &i; neypsenoo *i6\*- ^nejid- ^nosi'saqetoo lo esacq 
 
 ♦ IXb s.r. r.?.ri.t ,'i:seo' -''3 axifi Y/rsa-noO foooH sMitf rtCB"?: :*-prf+ o+ ke 
 
 8J, setct3.ii ".terij'iu?; qu d-t-'g oj a\:©X) X.ii©vsc! gnibaeqe J-jexJ-ii!' 
 
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 .1 ecu^lnv erlj ,vfi■.^' Xs'i<jrt5'; £. nl . ejjXjev an Ic 
 
 ,■■1 ,H rceewjC'C: eonefel Ixi:- t£ii t'^onB;je'?:c'X.& txir "lol .tm/ocos ocf 
 ,?vixXec! 1 ■:: . ^so^>j;7C.: --.axjixiW s.a:t- hv-r- . •.:.c'i ' anoS -i> ho::-. 
 
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 Ji5 ;^.Ii:r? iXs^ i)V.' .A *;b-.£0.& xXil' 'Xsrjclgs!^' 'Sli, ^li.\i 
 
 »vvcri Jsui,, vvonx s * i\oL i ^uci ,e: 
 
 - - -I «A i-^'r.jiG errij j-iiois e-i:. t c4~i..;:^il 
 
 :. :\&._: ienisijd .oX o;t sioxc to rfc. ■ 
 
 -p..-,-. •%•■.-';-• Tie*- ■; 3-=.1,E.X vTOCi i-ViA 
 
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26 
 
 say, exactly. 
 
 Gonrndssioner RUSSELL. It does not seem to me that this 
 is material. It appears evident that the figures are not laade 
 up in a comparative way, and, as we don't know how the figures 
 are made up for Manchester or some o Lher places, that does not 
 seem good evidence or worth while talcing up the time of the 
 Commission over. If one large concern in Boston can make an 
 accounting which complies with the wishes of the Oonimlssion, 
 it woiild seem as though another concern can. I don't know much 
 about the milk business, but I am much surprised at what has 
 developed here this morning. 
 
 Mr. SEARS. I want to say this, in reply to what Mr. Rus- 
 sell has said, that this Commission must remember that up to 
 the present time, of the three Whiting conceras, only one of 
 the Whiting concerns has given any figures, and that one of 
 the large concerns subject to this agreement has never given 
 any figures at all and is not prepared, as I understand it, 
 at all today to give any figures. And yet, I have not heard 
 a word of criticism of that fact. 
 
 Mr. CUSICK. I beg your indulgence for a moment, Mr. 
 Chairman. That is not true. 
 
 Chairman ALLEH. I don't thini:, Mr. Sears, that that is 
 a justification at all. I think you will allow the Commission 
 to deal with those other situations. In viev/ of what hasde- 
 veloped here this morning, and in view of Mr. Millett's state- 
 ment tiiat he does not knov,f hov/ to do this, would you be will- 
 ing to have the Commission appoint a certified accountant to 
 go in and work with Mr. Millett to get out this statement? 
 
 Mr. MILLETT. It depends on who it is — not a Whiting 
 ma.n. 
 
 Chairman ALLEU. I said, Mr. Sears, a certified public 
 
■••' J 'nob I ,ri£o meoitoo 'SLHi.-tons rfg.^ort..-'' 5,q cfveea -blifow Si 
 
 , ' n-; oj '^Iq?-i fix ^BXsii t ;i-n£.v I » 82AS.S -';.. 
 
 lo tnc; vine ^3i'i->ofio^: ?^i-il.:f J:-'" - "' exlj- iO torsyl.' :tne3©'xq sa^ 
 
 , .i:ii^^:..\':iAi.^ X SiJ ^It. -:>;-. 4 v "iq jo;.. 2.1 i.x'.E -.Xx' ; i^- ^s-iJo^i"; 
 
 rv t;X » ;:r:Ci.;. ;;jj-* L^ 'je^-^i-^o eBOjtuci Hcfxw .i"BeJ.i oJ 
 ;■ re; clT'f ' iM .'ti .tw il!'tov; finA; n.i; o:'\ 
 
accoTontant, whom the Oommiesion would select. I don't think 
 you need to ask us v/hether we will select one of the other com- 
 panies' accountants. I think you woxild pay us the compliment of 
 feeling that we would select an accountant who would be satis- 
 factory. 
 
 Mr. SEARS. I don*t see any objection at all -to that, Mr. 
 Chairman. Do you, Mr. Hood? (Mr. Hood did not. ) 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Will you agree to that? 
 
 Iflr. SEAPS. Yes, certainly, Mr. Chairman. 
 
 Mr. Ousick. I wovild crave the indulgence of the Commission 
 for a moment, Mr. Chairman, because I don't want my clients mis- 
 represented in this matter. In the first accountings we had 
 here, with the consent of the Commission, D. Whiting & Sons were 
 taken as typical of the three concerns, and you have in your 
 possession the exact accounting provided for by the Commission 
 froHi the first day you niet up to the present time, in the manner 
 and loethod requested by the Commission. It wais assented to by 
 the Commission that D. Whiting & Sons was typical, and they per- 
 mitted us to do that. These accounts are the consolidated ac- 
 counts of the three concerns; and, in addition, you have the 
 working papers of each concern, as arranged with the Commission. 
 So it is not fair, Mr. Sears, to talk about the failure of the 
 Wlaiting Company in this matter, ox- to criticise the Whitings as 
 you have done, because the Whiting Company has done nothing to b9 
 criticised for. - .-. 
 
 Mr. SEABS. I don't say they have. 
 
 Mr. CUSICK. We have attempted now for seven months to get 
 
 comparable figures here, and have not been able to do it. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. I did not ask, Mr. Sears, v/hgther you 
 would stand the burden of the accountant. T/ie Commission 
 hasn't any money to spend on that, so I will have to ask you 
 if you will consent to what seems to be a burden on the Hood 
 
b.Grf ev,' asniJnijooos ^cti^ silo nl .'sed-J.^ia simcf ni ja9i'-n&3e'^qf"i 
 
 &'56vY 8no3 ^^ 3Ki.t.t£f\? ,G <no j:-' "r-'.^,oC f..r{;' 'to iiioanoc Oiiv il^iw ,©'r»d 
 
 -ote &?:■ c.txiG-.. Doo -ot e-!.^ aj-;i/oco.s GwerfT .■;■'...- oij o^ ^Hf b^^J^i:.: 
 c - ij;.i. Cii'^ eiAJ rrijocffi :!iX.H; o:t ^p/xssS ^-iiL .-"iik"! i&n ax J"X o': 
 
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 ,'i ob oj ^:I^^.'^ ii*3:ic( d'Ofi sv-sr- t!-';-;^ ^'.xcd e. - . - 
 
 ■";oi :;•••■ traTiO^' ^i.^"^ > r'n.t^^-frujooo;- ■' -'b i?- 
 
28 
 
 Company? 
 
 Mr. SEA'RS. Certainly. 
 
 Chairman ALLBN. Thank you. Are there any other questions? 
 {1^0 response.) Then, the GOEomission will adjourn. You will 
 be ready, Kr* Pattee, probably at two o'clock this afternoon? 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Yes, sir. 
 
 CHANGE ON D. WHITISTG CONSOLIDATED SHEETS . 
 
 Mr. CUSICK. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Wellington wishes to call 
 attention to an error in the account, and have it corrected. 
 
 Mr. WELLINGTON. There is a difference of an even thousand 
 dollars in the calculation of dollars and cents on the Con- 
 solidated Stateraent. It can be corrected on your copies in 
 ink if you prefer, or can be corrected with the type-writer, 
 whichever is better. Referring to the Consolidated Stateraent 
 of whole milk operation, on the second sheet, the total sales 
 should be |414!r,000 instead of $413,000, and that will change 
 the resulting net loss at the bottom of the sheet. It changes 
 the loss from |230C to $1300. 
 
 INCLUSION OJ' WORCESTER gIGURgS IN YigjITlNG ACCOUNT . 
 
 Mr. CUSICK. Mr. Ghainaan, Mr. Wellington states that the 
 weighted Worcester account is included in the accounting, and 
 we will take it out. I am speaking for the ¥/hiting interests. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Yes; and we want Alden*s second sheet. 
 
 (The hearing was adjourned to 2 o'clock p.m.) 
 
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29 
 
 AgTfiRMOOM SESSION * 
 
 The hearing was resumed at two o'clock p.m.. Chairman 
 ALIiEN presiding. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN, in calling to order, said: Gentlemen, 
 the hearing v/ill be resumed. Mr. Pat tee, are you ready to put 
 in your papers? 
 
 STATSMBUT BY MR. RICHARD H. PAT TEE . 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Mr. Chairman, last month the Commission 
 awarded priees at Jail River, Massachusetts, upon the request 
 of the Producers and the Dealex-s in that narket. There have 
 been certain violations of the findings and awards of the 
 Commission in j'all River, and the men are up here, men who 
 produce for that market, ready to testify before your Com- 
 mission. They have also brought \/ith them affidavits from 
 others. They have to return early this afternoon. Would it 
 be possible to hear them now? 
 
 I Chairman ALLEN. In the hearings, did both parties agree 
 to abide by the findings of the Commission? 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. I so understand, Mr. Chairman. 0":her mem- 
 bers of your Commission v/ere present. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Then, what do you want to bring before 
 the Commission? 
 
 i Mr. PATTEE. I want to" bring "before the Commission the 
 evidence of the violation on the part of dealers of the find- 
 ings of this Commission, and ask that the Commission xakc steps 
 to enforce its findings. 
 
« . . .'. .» 
 
 q ?ioo.;o*o e. ;r.t*^i?->rL erfT 
 
 2s. ._l_i£J;J.. .: - T .kM Yg TiaaKiKTATe 
 
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 :f:r ■•: a:t-.lv£ii)j:^li:. iTerid- iu5 1// >'-ri3t;c'id oaiG bvblI i^siiT .noxpftaa' 
 
 ST^-OisairiricO &;;}• "io sjrixfcnxl fcrlJ- yd exicjs o;t 
 
 ?no.{:r ■ ... t-rfj- 
 
 . '.' '10 i'i'-'LBi,b "io it&q erio .no nox:tf-loi:v fcri.:^ I. .o, . .... :.. 
 
Chair.nan ALLEN. Y/ell? I think the Gonimission vjfill do that. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. It is a ne¥,' procedure. I don*t know just 
 i how to present the matter, except to present it on the affida- 
 i vits of these cien and the evidence oT the farmers who have come 
 
 here to testify. 
 j Chairman ALLEN. The Commission intends to have its 
 findings lived up, £*nd if you have the affidavits there I think 
 1;he Commission would like to see them. I understand that it 
 is a violation of the decision of the Commission? 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Yes, sir. Here are the affidavits, and I 
 don't suppose it is necessary to file the findings of the 
 Commission or any correspondence. Mr. G. A. Douglass and Mr. 
 John Schlegel, of Tiverton, Rhode island, are present, and, 
 if the Commission wishes, can state the situation doi'm in that 
 section. I will call Mr. Douglass, if the Committee wishes. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. All right. 
 
 GR0\^5 J. DOUGLASS -- sworn. 
 
 Q (By Mr. Pattee.) Your name and address? A. Grover J. 
 , Douglas? Tiverton, "Rhode Island. 
 
 Q Are you a milk producer? A. Yes, sir. . t 
 
 Q Where do you sell the milk? A. Jail River. 
 
 Q To whom? A. M. E. Davis. 
 
 Q Will you state to the Commission the situation in respect to 
 Mr. Davis? A. Well, as I ujiderstand it, the Commission fix 
 the zones in the vicinity of Pall River. That is, the first 
 zone would be 20 miles out, and the representatives from the 
 locals around there divided that first zone into three zones — 
 that is, 6, 10 and 20 miles,- and they agreed to charge within 
 the first zona, 6 mil.= s, lO cents a quart and allow them the 
 
^.' oo- o 
 
 
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 2.1 X vjisil 0-+ 3i:>fiectni nccsaiiTsnioO eriT .- ' asa-'xlKciO 
 
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 ;;>i^ce'i nx nox;i-.ci,j;f x s erf:? nox'": eiforrrc-O ?^f{;* oj- 'c-.ia.t^. uo^ XXxW 9 
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 fi^cr iKO-sl 3&v.'.j j; jneaeiq^-v erfj i:;ni; ,.:^i;c eell/r: OP fee i . . 
 
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 vt «^ < 
 
OJ. 
 
 rest for handling the milk; in the second zone 9-3/4 cents, 
 ten miles out, and from ten to twenty miles 9-1/2 cents per 
 quart, at the door. Some of the dealers came down and paid the 
 price and others refused to do it, and we are leaving them milk. 
 Q Who refused? A. The names are on the paper, the affidavits. 
 Q Who are they, the dealers? A. The dealers are M. E. Davis, 
 
 Peckham-Davis Company, 0. Charest and Franklin E. Brow. 
 Q Wlien did these people refuse to take your milk and pay you 
 
 the price? A. T.ast Sunday morning. The thing had been hang- 
 ing fire and we had been trying to get them to say they v/ould 
 pay the price a week or two before that. 
 Q Do you know whether or not those same dealers are paying a 
 different price than that ordered by the Commission in other 
 sections? A. In Swansea, Westport and Westport Harbor, 
 , they are paying the price, and in llorth Tiverton, 
 Q What, if any, reason Vi/as given to you for not giving the price? 
 A As I understand it, they say they have given us a lower price 
 
 dovm there and will continue to do so. 
 Q Who said that to you? A. I didn*t hear that said to me. 
 That is just what is nosed around there. It is not official. 
 Chairman ALLEF. The only thing that can be put in here, 
 of course, is a protest. We cannot have a hearing upon the 
 loatter at this time. 
 
 Mr. PATTSE, ITo, but I want to call your attention to the 
 situation. I don't know just how to proceed, except to con- 
 tinue the story, telling what the facts are. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. We can have the other parties present 
 and can have a hearing, if ic is necessary. • .. 
 Mr. PATTEE. All right. 
 
 Comm. MURDOCK. Have you called the attention of the other 
 parties to the fact that you were going to bring it up? 
 
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 x\&Ci S'iB K"i©i£si» 6£ttis.s &socl:t- *cxj 'io ";. $n\"!'tii'.v wcn>X x/oy c 
 
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 ?cjc.j.-i-4 Oiii- gnivif^ oon -^Eo'i jjov 0;^ aev'j-g asw noa.L^,-.; t-v:,xi£ 'tx ,.+.*3r; . 
 
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32 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. The other parties have been notified. The 
 
 first appealed to the Secretary and he wrote to the parties 
 i 
 defining the findings. These people will show that the dealers 
 
 down there have not complied with the finding and are still 
 
 refusing, and I ask them to present their evidence that they 
 
 are still refusing. 
 
 ! Comm. MURDOCK. Yes, but have you notified these dealers 
 that you were going to bring this riaatter up here today, so 
 that they could be heard? 
 
 i Mr. PATTEE. No, sir, not in regard to having a specific 
 hearing on this particular thing. 
 
 Comm. MURDOOK. You just notified them generally that you 
 would protest to the Commission? 
 
 ' Mr. PATTEE. Yes, sir. I am not familiar with such pro- 
 cedure and don't know how to go into court, to show a reason 
 for going in. 
 
 I Comm. MU?DOCK. The first thing is to let the other fellow 
 know you are going in. 
 
 I Mr. PATTEE. ^JVell, he knows it. Now, Mr. SchJLegel will 
 tell the same story, to establish a violation of the ruling 
 down there. If the other parties want to come iii later and 
 testify, all right. |s there anything else? 
 
 I Chairman ALLEN. As I understand it, the only thing we 
 can hear today is a protest. You will file these affidavits 
 here, and, while I cannot say what the Commission will do, I 
 feel that the Commission v/ill write to the dealers and ask 
 whether they are living up to the agreement entered into. If 
 it appears that they are not living up to -che agreement, the 
 decision that v;as made at that time, we will so notify them, 
 and that may bring them around. If not, we will have a hear- 
 ing and have them here. Of course, the decision would b© 
 
L J. (. ■ 
 
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 T. ...v /x'^lf: 9?56.riJ' eXi'l LXxw iroY ..tBS'oiq a si: vEbo.t 'xx5efi .'i.ec 
 
 I , . -..-.- iv fioi.3ai"r:u . ... .. .tiriw y-^^ ;^onrfBo i eXldw ^ba.& tO'ierf 
 
 i^r-.o i^ns a-tfcXoiiJJ £.rLo od" »:> ii-tw XXxw noi^pixaiiboO txtf u.bri;r X^ el 
 il ,^.;'■ox .;;r>-^:. .ino J fti^msfviSB sif:f o:t qj ^nxvxX sis ^sxl^t te;i^ex{^ 
 
 t .^:::. " 'I ^:: ' • ,. o i: iXi-fc vv ^«-i;LiJ:^ ;.!• ouo' c.sl eb • ' . i^ex; 
 
 IXxv; 6W ,.-roa 11 .inxro-i:.!^ irserv 5,nXiT^ v.C!A ^.iiiiJ- ijn.t 
 
 sd ijX;,i-;i.'' n;.' ;.3Xc:->V! eri'^ j" :• 'lO .e-j . " - ^■'"?x:, :y,nx 
 
I 
 
 5a 
 
 retroactive. 
 
 Q j (By Comra. Murdock. ) Mr. Witness, what reason do you say they 
 
 give for not complying? A. No official reason, but I have 
 
 heard it nosed around. 
 
 Q Well, you have talked with your own distributor? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 i 
 Q What did he say? A. He says he is not going to pay the price, 
 
 He says they haven't paid tho price in other zones around, and 
 that they are not going to now; haven't had any zones establish- 
 ed there before . 
 Q (By Chairma.n Allen.) That zone was established by the Com- 
 mission? A. Yes, and, as I say, was split up by the execu- 
 tives of the locals there into three zones. 
 Q And that was agreed to by the producers? A. Yes. 
 Q Then, the dealers are not living up to the agreement thatthey 
 made with the producers outside of tixe Oommission? A. No. 
 Chairman ALLEN. You will leave those affidavits, will 
 you? 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Yes, sir. .- 
 
 (The affida.vits above referred to were left 
 with the Commission.) 
 
 W. P. DAVIS — sworn. 
 
 Q (By Chairman Allen.) What is your full name? A. W. P. 
 I Davis, of the New England Milk Producers Association. In 
 accordance with a request made by the Commission at its last 
 hearing, or one prior to that, a system of farm accounting v/as 
 taken up and discussed. The farm management specialists of 
 the various states were called together to formulate some such 
 system as could be put into general use throughout ITew England. 
 In the meantime, to secure cost figures that conference of 
 
. 6 v'.c.rojioicJ'oi 
 , . . . .{naioO y8^ 
 
 »seY .A VtOd'.udx'j.tsxi) nwo -luoxj flcl^xw i)$ : . .=1 c^oy <iX«f 
 
 .:.:^ ( ./rfifcnii fscnos ';£ja7o nx eoi'tq oac ^-^'■'H. ..''• -vir, ,v.,;:& ft. 
 
 . e-j o 'xe d s^i fctri .i b e 
 
 -:::0C Sii.t ^iQ .i:-3.r£'.ii:lcf.s?3S 8^.v; &n0 2 ,t,oxiT (.-isIIA nMinxBCiO yfi ■ 
 
 -LrooKe srLt vd qn d-xlea qbw ^--iBB I sir, tfcn^ .seY .A rno.uSBXm 
 
 .a^Y .A ':8';';&o,iji>c'i.-; sdi \,d o.i i>se-sg£ saw .-tBil^ bn/. 
 
 v£ seigii »iicr c>; q;; v,a.c vil ion e'lB a-xslj^c^o ^rj' ,rieriT 
 
 . c ■•: .A 'vnoxaaiinmoD exli 'io ehie,^iso 3'iso.u.fco'iq . ©.rid" j^txw eJb^^rn 
 
 •. J J' kj . 
 
 
 :c;;u PDifs fcj.:oIi;wic':; o,? ■loii.;^^;;}©^- ibsii.sc e'i:aw 3e:r-j + 3 aijox'i^v sjIo! 
 
farm management men reconunended that the questionnaire method 
 
 of securing prevailing prices of feed and labor be continued, 
 
 I 
 and as a result of that questionnaires v/ere sent out this 
 
 month, as they have been during the previous two price-fixing 
 periods. Those questionnaires called for costs of feeds, 
 labor, and the amount of stock, and so forth, on the farms. 
 The questionnaires returned have been summarized, and the second 
 sheet of this exhibit shows you the tabulated costs of grain, 
 hay, silage, green feed and other dry roughage, per ton, and 
 the costs of labor by the month, with board; by the month, 
 without board; by the day, with board; and by the day, with- 
 out board, in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts 
 and Connecticut. 
 I (The paper referred to and introduced in evi- 
 
 dence by Mr. Davis, comprising seven typewritten 
 sheets,- showing (1) Average cost of producing a 
 quart of milk for certain months in Iiilaine, Naw 
 Hampshire, Vermont, Mctssachusetts and Connecticut; 
 (2) Summary sheet of data from milk producers' af- 
 fidavits, for said states; (3) Cost of milk production 
 for ITovember, 1918, in Connecticut; (4) In New Hamp- 
 shire; (5) In Massachusetts; (6) In Vermont; and 
 (7) In Maine,- v/as marked "Exhibit 1 of November 22, 
 1918, E.W.H." ) 
 
 Q (By Comm. Sawyer.) Will you please tell us hOT/many question- 
 naires you received back, and hov; many were sworn to ajid how 
 many were not? A. 300 were received. 
 Q Prom all the New England States? A. Yes, sir, 
 Q For the month of — - A. October; thatis, the report 
 
 covered tlie month of October. 
 I 
 Q Who many ^ere sworn to? A. They all had either the affidavit 
 
. sirr-jel .erfS' ito ■■! oa ibns »:'i'co:}'3 'lo tmjows eriJ- foris ,i:oq'bI 
 
 ; ;.; iin.e ties tfr-n^itJi/s need cvtui b^^ntu i . .5~-i^iinnoxd"3Sixp 8.ciT 
 
 :.:i: •■r- 'io B&sot, be:;i:ilLf6si& srlct ;..■ ; 'lixi.x© . 3 £.ri:t r,o .tosrfs 
 
 -dd-xw <YB.ti Siicj- vd ban ib^coo rttx- , .^d ib'i£.-od Aisodjiv: 
 
 -XV6 ni rieouho'iini 'cn& ot fce-TiC- 'leqBC f>f{T ) 
 
 ne.td"i:tv?eq ';■ nf^vfta .Brjxax-iusioo ,3xv£a^ .iM y.ci ecnex) 
 £ §n:xoiJi>C'i.^ .; - .- c....;, oji-^iievA (I) gniiworiB -,c:!'e&iie 
 
 -"is ' 3i{;C/:JijO'x;i -..,-... ;t'0'xl: „.,.._.. lo ."'seaa vi_,...„; f s; ) 
 -., ^- -l (t) ,3-i../oxj-o&nnuO nx tf^Xt?i .-is;. 'icl 
 
 J • l^ • ^ * ._ ^ *.. -i- ..^ 
 
 -:. - vDJiiuvJor^ 6u lie;* OS.- .- -'" ','::"vvri:C . . 
 
 ■ ivfri^ Oc^- ci-ios-a 6T[9\v v,n.^-;ri v/c.i". >:n.ii ,.;.o c j;cvi;:uc'v: 'j:.--i 3;:xxi.i. 
 
 fit ,5X:i.C!{J ;-i::..oc-,l *?. _c :ijn-:.: ,exi^ -^ g ' 
 
 .'itdoc^cO "::o . ' hh'i^ 
 
35 
 
 or were sworn to before the poat master or mail carrier. 
 
 Q Are you sure of that? A. I am very sure of that, yes. 
 
 I 
 Q (By Comm. Jordan.) How many were sent out? A. Two thousand. 
 
 There wsro sent from our office 1200, and 20 each were sent 
 to the J'arm Bureaus all over New England. Plow many v/ere sent 
 from their offices I don't know. They were requested to send 
 them out. I imagine the majority of them did reach the pro- 
 ducers. Now, those feed and labor prices were applied to the 
 Chamber survey, and the first sheet you have shows the average 
 cost by states and the weighted costf' for New England, the 
 weighted average costs, which appear as 8.2 cents. The 
 weighted average cost per 5000-pound cow is 8.8 cents,- that is, 
 at the country railroad station. Now, I thihk this system 
 
 hasbeen discussed previously, and, Linless there are further 
 
 i 
 questions, I will just file this as an exhibit. 
 
 Q (By Oomm. Sawyer.) You are filing, then, as an exhibit, sheets 
 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, aren't you? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (Papers marked, as stated above, "Exhibit 1 of 
 November 22, 1918." ) 
 
 Q (By Comm. Bird.) According to this, you make the cost for 
 
 November the same as the cost for October? A. Yes, sir. There 
 are some slight changes by states, if you compare the cost per 
 quart in the last two columns, sho\/ing costs there under Octo- 
 ber and November. You will see tne variation by states, that 
 has occurred. 
 
 Q Taking the 300 returns that you received, v/hat was the average 
 number of cows owned, perreturn? A. I didn't tabulate the 
 number of cows. They run all the way from 3 to 80 in the herd. 
 
 Q JDon't you think that is quite an important part of ti'^is price 
 proposition, that the Commission should know whether they are 
 
J t - T • 
 
getting reports from men ^/ho have two or three cows or whether 
 they are getting the averages of reasonable herds? It seems to 
 me that is a very important question in conn3ction v/ith your 
 report » A. I can file that with you later, this afternoon 
 or tomorrow morning. 
 
 Gomm. BIRD. I think that ought to be done. 
 Gomm. BEIGHAM. Yes. 
 
 Q (By Gomm. Sawyer.) Xr. Davis, you have based your costs on 
 the Chamber of Commerce methods? A. Yes. At the time — 
 I think it was in J^-ily at the time Professor Boutell was em- 
 ployed here,- one change was made on depreciation. It showed 
 a variation in the Chamber survey, and the increases in the 
 cost of cov/s and so forth, seemed to 7/arrant a change in that 
 depreciation cost. 
 
 Q What have you figured as depreciation per cow on that question- 
 naire? A. fifteen per cent. 
 
 Q What v/as it before, in the Chamber survey? A. Well, it 
 varied from 11 to 16,- something of that kind. I believe in 
 the first survey, in one of the states, it seems to me i~, was 
 Massachusetts, at the time the sur'/ey v.as rra.'i3 there was an 
 actual appreciation instead of a depreciation, due to the 
 sharp advance in the prices of animals as a res'ult of the 
 increase in beef prices. That is, the year dated back to 1916 
 and 1917, and the inventory value in 1916 was less, had in- 
 creased in 1917, which showed an appreciation instead of a de- 
 preciation. Yet, if you took the actual losses over a period 
 of years as a result of disease, loss of udders, and the stock 
 that was sold from, the herd due to old age -- that is, old cov.s, 
 and so forth,- ycu would find that you should figure in deter- 
 mining any costs of this kind a depreciation, that this v,-a8 
 
tioqs*f 
 
 no s.tsoo tjjo^^ bosBci ©vsri ;/oy ^S'- l.Te^wjin .faixoO ^8 ■ 
 
 — Kfiij o.ci* vA. .S9Y ,/l Ve^, ...-.- .-.;; eo-iecirtio? lo -^edniBilO ©.rfcr 
 
 ed.i nx aeasoTorfx 6c\:+ ....... ,\_evt'Ja •ledfaRxfO ?"^-^ -;.;. ._.,;;.. -i.'£i5v s 
 
 ni svellsd I .i-;rrJ:-f :^.ri{:t ^-o ^rtrrf + r-Yrc". - , 9i oj 11 rso'i'i,; x^ei ; - 
 
 
 
 •IS. ©'.ice-toni 
 
 .i.' bi^s^arfx ^ox.;.=i:oe'is^l^■ fi*i jcec;c^'r; xioiriw ,?iei xti &)ea.S9ic 
 
 5;ov -r'1-t'io'i oa 
 
 Gj^j.) i^ 
 
 ' yjice'v^.. 'jX) .0 or".: 
 
37 
 clearly a condition which does not prevail if you take it over 
 a period of years, just the same as you vi/ould figure a depre- 
 ! ciation on any line of business. Does that explain the ques- 
 tion? 
 
 Q That is all I want at the present time. Now, these prices 
 that you submit for November from the different states would 
 be the price or the cost of raising milk for a year if these 
 prices prevailed throughout the year? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q And you claim that these prices here, or these costs, are what 
 it costs to raise milk in November? A. That has alw^ays been 
 , an open question and one which we v/ere unable to conscientiously 
 ' get costs on. They were not available in New England. Now, 
 if it is the intention to reduce prices during the flush sea- 
 sons, obviously the price should be increased during this sea- 
 ' son. If you have — and probably you have -- seen the Warren 
 scale, it sho?/s a variation from 7 per cent to 120 — 119 per 
 cent for December, if I remember it, 120 for January, and 
 dropping down to 70 per cant in Jxine. That is for the total 
 cost, the same as we present here. .. ■ 
 
 Q That is what I was trying to get at -- November prices or 
 averages for the year. A. Averages for the year, or the 
 prices for feed and labor applied to the quantities v/hich were 
 average quantities fed during the year. 
 
 Q ITaat you claim is that these costs are the costs for produc- 
 ing milk in the month of November, or will be the costs? 
 
 A No, I don't claim: that. This is over the period of the year 
 that November costs apply to the quantity figures, but the 
 cost is gi'eater during the winter feeding period and is less 
 during the sijramer feeding period. 
 
 Q. You claim, then, that these costs are too low as submitted here 
 by you for the month of November' A. Yes, sir. To what 
 

 ci-iso^i zeiB:fs jnst.cYttb edt scii locfnevci^ tc'i .ixn-di/B yoy ^.srL,-* 
 
 d">siiw e'iB ^sJ-aoQ essitr to ^sisri e&oxiq esexid' j'fcxid rn^Blr: ro" 
 
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 5 .f^aj^lgn.. nx eXcfisixBVii ;ton eiew ^erfT .no 8:^aoo;: ;i6g. 
 
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 X£;toj£u+ icl si cf&fiT -eiivl. nx .j-a'c,c ■. ^ o;*- nwob 2'~t<^'^*fl*3'^'-' 
 
 srLt 'xo t'li^BY fin.-5- '£01- PifigiiisvA 4A ' t-taev bi-. 3*iiev£ 
 
 -; ^ew rioxri.v 3exjx;. .>.... >, * boxXqq"£ lOdsX bnji beet -iol seoi'ta 
 
 -o.-Ji>o-iq -iol: 3^+300 eztr ©-iJi 3:^3: ' -■' ax nixsXo 00^ 
 
 ■^'sdfaco ©lir ecf XXxvy -fo ^'tgc .-.- 'ic x^: :i.& rtx ^Ilii, 'vrti 
 
 'ii.sv exio lo .boi'ieq orld' '-ievo ci sir(T *:!"i3iTj iaxj..^o j'nojj x ,a;j. 
 
 -.i 5^r;_r- ;•■(:.:'•(.::' ':r!±i)£6l te^'rrxw eaJ 3r!XT:!-!b le^t-iJe'i^ sx c^soc 
 
 ..;;•,..-._. :^. • nxbss;;'! -j:&;'':piu?j 6-lJ gnxixfj; 
 5i-:t:I ^:- wci or.^r CiiS b7 ■ - i^.o :tiiiii t"f-."^:' ^-.iSiLo 
 
38 
 
 extent they are too low I am unable to give you definite fig- 
 ures upon, but, as an estimate, I believe Professor Lindsay 
 has recently taken up the Warren scale and considered, whether 
 or not it ittight be applicable to ?Tew England conditions, and it 
 is his opinion that that scale is applicable to our situation 
 here, in which case it would increase this cost by 18 or 19 
 per cent, if you arrive at the actual cost of producing milk 
 I now. 
 Q Now, as I understood the use of these milk costs of production, 
 arranged by the Chamber, and by the examples vdiich have been 
 given, the changes in the prices of feed, such as grain and hay 
 charges, and in the cost of labor, woiild be applied to the 
 
 particular items in the Chambei survey.- I notice that on 
 
 explained 
 other costs, and you have already aepreciation, that you have 
 
 made changes, ffor instance, taking the State of Maine, you 
 made other changes right straight through there. You have 
 interest, taxes and insurance per cow, $8.11; bull service, 
 ^5.08 in I'^ovember as against $2.74 in the Chamber survey; 
 while use of buildings is the same, and so forth. A. On 
 taxes, interest and insurance, that change is explained by the 
 increase in valuation per cov/. That was determined last month 
 to be |102, by the questionnaires reported, the average valu- 
 ation placed by the farmer on his cows. 
 
 That was you-r deduction from the questionnaires in the state 
 of Maine, that the valuation of a cow was$102? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Based on v/hich set of questionnaires, which month? A. As I 
 recall it, the October set. 
 
 Q You think cows have appreciated since August or .July in the 
 state of Maine, from any knowledge you have or examination of 
 the questionnaires? A. Well, that is the only time that 
 question was asked, I believe, was during that month. I 
 
« ''■V "■ ■ • 
 
 .' ".'X JCi.?i:'0-i<i 10 c:^soo :AS.iT, oeea^ 'lo &au 6ri^ Loess's siniu I se , 
 
 : ij,:'.. i';.' i • 
 
 Xi^::jj:.'/ rrx 6a.e3*iC.ax 
 
 i <? r- -^ 'V n •'"•'* .' ' ■*■ r '\ " : *'• c; -f r r r^ rt a f "t ""^ * 
 
 t cn-L' 
 
 's«''il£;anox.-5e!jT eiii 
 
 
33 
 
 believe it was asked for in the August figures and also in the 
 October figures. 
 
 Q Yes. I see it was asked in the months of July and August. 
 
 A Yes . 
 
 Q I wish you would look up and bring in here, if you can, a 
 
 recapit\ilation of the July and August reports for the state of 
 Maine, and tell us what you make the value of a cow to be as 
 reported by the farmer, because I cannot find that the cow 
 value at that time is $102, as you have stated, and I would 
 like to have you check me up, A. I will do that. 
 
 Q And, of course, if you are too high or too low on that it will 
 change all your other figures. I notice that you have nmter- 
 ially increased the cost of haxiling milk? A. Well, that is 
 on the generally accepted basis of 25 cents a hundred. 
 
 Q Who accepted that? A. Well, that is being paid by the Hood 
 CompaEty, and, from all the information we can find, is being 
 paid in the country at the present time -*- that is, outside. 
 Is that based on a mile distance, or is it 25 cents per hundred 
 for any distance? A. Well, on the average route over which 
 milk is hauled. It will vary from five to eight or ten miles. 
 An instance came to my attention the other day where 56 cents 
 per hundred was being charged. 
 
 I know, but why should you make that change in this Chamber of 
 Commerce survey without calling our a.ttention to it before, when 
 we supposed that the only changes v/ere ongrain, labor and hay? 
 This is the first intimation vi^e have had that there has been 
 any such change. Does that change apply to previous estimates 
 of cost that you have given us? — that is, that change in the 
 cost of hauling? A. That change of price was made at the 
 July compilation, whan Professor Boutell had charge of the 
 working out of the figures. 
 
io e&sdB ■ :'~1 acf-foqc ; i- _ 'O noiisLu:' 
 
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Q Do you remember whether that was called to our attention as a 
 
 separate thing, or not? At I don't recall whether it was 
 
 or not. 
 Q Hov/ many hours does the ordinary monthly farm hand, at a price 
 
 per month with board, put in on the farm in the day? We have 
 
 had some evidence on that on several occasions. A. Why, they 
 
 vary all the way from 10 to 15 or 17. 
 Q Puts in sometiioe Sundays? A. Yes, sir. 
 Q What would you say is the fair nxmoar of hours for the monthly 
 
 farm! hand to put in, in the month, the way farms go? Do you 
 
 knov/ — yourself, I mean? A. ''.ly judgment would he, 300. 
 Q Three hundred hours? A. Ten hours a day. This calculation 
 
 for October on the price per hour has been based on a 30-day 
 
 month and 10 hours a day. 
 Q Isn't it a fact that the ordinary farm hand employed by the 
 
 month works a good many more hours than that? A. I suppose 
 
 many of them do . 
 
 Q Well, isn't it a rule? A. And a great many of them are work- 
 ing on regular hours. That is becoming more necessary. That 
 is, taking the hired labor at the present time, it is very 
 difficult fco get them to work ten hours, even if you can get 
 them to work that number of hours. Many comments on the q.ues- 
 tionnaires include the fact that a good deal of their labor is 
 working only nine hours — that is, the hired labor. The man 
 himself may put in more time than that, the owner, the operator, 
 because he has a personal interest in that business and would 
 be doing little things about the place when his other men are 
 gone. 
 
 Q How many of these farmers, judging from these questionnaires, 
 taking the list sent in here — ■ 300 is the number, isn't it? 
 Yes, sir. 
 
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 L :"■„ ^•■cn'AO erf:! <■" ■' :.' ' ■■ ■ r " : ■ . '^^ ....-, ...-.e snXii 
 
 ■:: i. :•-.:' o ci:^ nt-^iV. tt^.iiij vr'-' ::V;o<J£. ^.-^^nl-ri ^iJflL y,v-ioh ^.(S 
 
 5 •:.■ ■:. f 1 = I ■ - • -'- * ' V.-' ' 
 
4-1 
 
 Q How many of them are really employing labor by the month? 
 
 A Well, probably 
 
 Q I don't want "probably." If you can, I wish you would give it 
 to me exactly. A. Well, I can give it to you, the actual 
 number who report as hiring labor and those who report their 
 own labor, their ovm tim®, 
 
 I wish you would. A. I have not ^nade a separate tabulation 
 of that, but it is easily obtainable. 
 
 Q Because, when there are only 300 reports to go on this month, 
 I don't think that is quite enough. I wish you would give it 
 for the other months, too, where there have oeen reports sent 
 in. A. I don't get those, because most of the reports are 
 sent to the iTarm Bureau men, separate bureaus. 
 
 Q I can give you tiie state of Maine. A. It would require soma 
 little time to gather them in and get that information, 
 
 Comm. SAWYEK. That is all nov/, Mr. Ohairman. I may have 
 some more questions later. 
 
 Q (By Oomm. Jordan.) Mr. Davis, can you give us the number of 
 returns per state? A. No, not right offhand. 
 
 Q May v/e have that later? A. You can have that later; yes, sir. 
 
 Q (By Gomm. Sawyer.) That is, in the month that these are based 
 on. A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q (By Gomm. Jordan.) These 300 returns. A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q (By Gomm. Burns.) Mr. Davis, when j;-ou gave this report to the 
 Commission, based on the August and October survey, did you 
 notify the Commission at that time that the basis as outlined 
 by the Commission in their previous questionnaire and the fig- 
 uring of the costs upon that questionnaire had been changed? 
 
 A I didn't present the exhibits at either of those hearings. 
 
 Q Well, they v/ere presented by the producers? A. They were 
 presented. 
 
,•■. ,-. r f- 
 
 «- -. --■■;■ no 02, '"'* ei'ioqe-^ OOS y~-"^o eix e-sfexy rs-aoV ^eswfioe 
 
 .^'i evlg i?.i-i.jov/ iLToy . . ;... I ..rigiion© eoii/r sx ctiixiJ Anixid- ^ *noio I 
 THirB aJ'ioqe-i no&o p-v^ii e':5ii* .e^: ^ ^.K^no;;. • . '._ 
 
 ti-xfe T;j-]Oci;;"i t.ricr lo d-cofii ssxiBoec . . ''nor 1 ,A .n; 
 
 iiG'ini :'.jiriJ ^g'S- -.bnxi ni fce/^'- 'i;;y;(:ii:^g o;f ei-^.t e-"oX,L 
 
 • fcr'.SMl'iv JrigX'l ^nr< ^ o ;' , ■" '-s.:^-^.^^ I.t'^ c:.^ .; 
 
 .-i . , T , A .. no 
 
 -■;X£ ^oeY .A „ zn'tu ■■ 'i^'i uwo •. ! .HiiDToT. .niiiOO \,fn 
 
 i;;^r-r „-:-,,/ o cfi HX^ijcf f:.-^;t i- ■■ Ji, r- ..ybXo^KioO f;Xio v:.i:ion 
 
 -; , .■: -. ■~.J..i<ii:::^::l■aBk:£ ;,;>. oivs-^y tiv^ji..'' ni noit: s.Xi-ctoO ^^il:^ '{d 
 
 -•:' 0. :'■ t-'";:.r.'"'r' ''''"j. "■'"••:•"- 'f ^bpJ nc'.;'; ^ii'p.'.c t r'"' '':c "■rA/'i.:.. 
 
42 
 
 Q V/ell, was there any evidence submitted that you l^now of to the 
 Commission by the producers to show that clianges hadbeen roade 
 in the bases of computing those costs? A. Well, the tabu- 
 lations were discussed at that time. I don't recall whether 
 they were brought out or not. It is ray impression that thsy 
 were gone over and any changes noted at that time. 
 
 Q (By Commissioner Sawyer.) Well, don't you know that the Cora- 
 mission's attention has not been called to any change except 
 in the mere prices of labor, grain and hay? A. Y/ell, any 
 change that has been made has been brought to the attention of 
 the Commission. 
 
 Q ' Well, now, not in connection with figuring costs. We don't 
 know of any other changes having been brought to the attention 
 of the Commission except those in ^he prices for grain, hay 
 and labor. A. Depreciation was brought out at the July 
 hearing, I am very sure. That is my recollection, that it v/as 
 brought out at that time, because it showed a marked increase 
 ' during that month, as I recall it, and discussion followed the 
 presentation of those figures. 
 
 Q (By Comm. Bird.) It would appear to me as if there hadbeen 
 changes made by the producers in the method of estimating 
 costs but that they had not definitely made those statements 
 to the Commission, that changes had been made and ivhere such 
 changes were made in the methods, and it would seem to me very 
 proper for the Commission hereafter to suggest to the producers 
 that any change in the methods be brought out and shown up to 
 the Commission, any change upon which you base your costs. 
 I see. 
 
 Mr. PATT3E. Mr. Chairman, I think perhaps the Commission 
 is not aware that Mr. Davis* direct connection with these mat- 
 ters and his preparation of these figures does not go back to 
 
"^•Ed GO-. 
 
 I . 
 
 . •*-• -*■' K- Xa; Jt-' 
 
 5 •"ir.trClQ "t-ii. 
 
 ;; J- ii ^3_0r!: OCT -ijSfCuC ^blf/ov ^-I (.X'tX ' 
 
 ■. .L--. 
 
 .cw a;' .^'c vj-'or. o S'^t't 
 
 f'ix;^ '-^iv.i.C .' 
 
43 
 
 the tlire of the July hearing. He has only had charge of that 
 work since that time, and, if the Oormnission would permit me, 
 I v/ould like to call attention to the fact that the figures 
 presented at the time whan these changes were made were not 
 presented as the original figures of the milk producers. We 
 were notified that the evidence which we had "been presenting 
 up to that time was not satisfactory to the OoaBnission, that 
 you wanted more evidence, that you wanted it prepared and pre- 
 sented in a different way. We were consulted, called into 
 conference, with a view to preparing and securing information 
 that could be submitted to your Commission. The Commission it- 
 self, I presume, approved, adopted or accepted a cLuestionnaire 
 that we did not originate and are not responsible for, except 
 to the extent that we collaborated in the preparation of it. 
 The Commission, or somebody for the Commission, then sent those 
 questionnaires to a large number of people, including the mem- 
 bers of our Association. These questionnaires were returned 
 to the Commission. An expert under the direction of the Com- 
 mission or acting in conjunction with or having some relation 
 to the Commission, went to meetings, and we assisted, collabor- 
 ated all the time, helping the Commission and its expert or 
 the expert acting in conjunction with it to get information 
 direct, o trier than that returned through the questionnaires, 
 and when the questionnaires were returned and the otrier infor- 
 mation he had secured was made available, this expert, hired 
 by somebody else, without our knowledge and consent, but, 
 getting all the time all the help we could give him, tabxiiat- 
 .. j ed these figures and presented them as showing the cost of 
 production of milk at the July hearing, if my memory is cor- 
 rect. At thai time the figiires purporting to show the cost 
 or production were presented oy the secretary of the Commission 
 
t.' K. I. 
 
 ;:'J; &i': ... - . _ ■ , -. ' 
 
 - q need fcari ©^« .coid%' ecneLive sri: ibex li^ or •; 
 
 - - . i i)6*n£v. oca; c^^if;!- ^eoneiuvB 6'iOffi b&d-ntrvv x/Oi^ 
 
 XM-i:,t.3ffirf0lnx ^r-x'sx.'oes hns. gnx~ : oc^ ^eiv '■ -'xv teoni^f elnor, 
 
 - . nuxaS-cnnyoO sr-T .noxpsxfj^KoO -suo^r o. -j a ad ialuoo d-\sxic- 
 
 ;:ri.cxise:if £■ . oo-S to L-ecqoJii:- ,!..£ vo'iCjqr: ^&fi.ij3e"iq I ,tl' 
 
 ;tq90xe ^To'J tjid.-i&nooEv t :ton f-jf^ bna i-3'r.rti-^-Jiro ctorf ^xL ev/ •: 
 
 .jl 'xo nox.1 i?-ij::.i;eiri"i f-ri^ n.l bf:'-J.i:°iQ^ -iii +neu>:© end" ci 
 
 ;^ojij >tnso neiij tnoxepXf'fncC i^-.^ 'to"i xhoovt^OB iv ^noXosifnicoC Sait 
 
 -£;;.eri exicf ^^fi-tti/xonx ^v.;.^^^-rq 'io -• ^ ^' /n 5g,-i£i. s 0- eet.tx^nroJ.,? 3 ©iJi 
 
 . j^;::r'ij.i;^fv'i tsisw se'txjinno.t;:J'seifc tcoilT .noi-^rixc;' aaA -1^0 lo ei&ci 
 
 no.LjtoI$T e-aos gnivr^ri -"jo ri.jxv\' ncxc! Dnxitnoo nl: :;^,r>ijO£ 10 noxeair 
 --5.od£,XXoc (iei^x&SjS e'A^ .I;ns ^ag^xj■c^■;2 oS "rev; ,:•<■ .u5\f;,:r.roC? ; :;: o.i 
 •iO iioqxe s:J'x or:;' noxESXiriincO ixiu £,nicl^-r-' ,. . X.Lz bt-tis.. 
 
 noUxjiEiolni: :*•':- - •• '' i ■:-^'-.^ ffcJ::t onur,^ -0 r;x 3nx.to£ ^"i^qxe Qdi 
 
 foe'::.^;" r^f^-; ■'? ^ 6ld.i: J ?:-■: '— : :;!■.. ..I- p-.^r. X>e-<x?CfcB ^" - ' er nc !::!■££. 
 
 '^ixsc , .;iii.: i.c^c i^i-^xi ej^i-e^uufiiL 'u/o :^i.,odiJ:'fi ^&r.^z v/^" 
 -:^A.Xjjdjc.:? . .'xrcc ev* ciGr[ f•r<:^ lis ecr.tt en:! j j.x. ^fJ-^-' 
 
 lo :' • f'x ".■;■' x'r; c^i meii:t !:><:: ^n'-fseiv Lnoi sc^'ii}-;.!":. 
 
 -■j'..o ax v^C; - ... t%rri-i££.ri \.i., ' :^K :^Xi:n-? "iC' rcotv oubO'sr 
 
as the result of the tabulation and ttie work done by this out- 
 side expert whom the Commission ^vas instrumental, I understood 
 at tlie uime and have ever since, in procuring. 
 
 Comm. SWAYEH. What month was that? Let us have that 
 fixed. 
 
 Mr. PAYTSS. I think, July. Dr. Gilbert will verify that. 
 
 Comm. SA^YKR, We have not been talking about July, except 
 where we have referred bak for comparison. 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. And since then the attention of the Commiss- 
 ion, I understand, has been called oy us to every change we 
 have made or suggested or reported in the Chamber of Commerce 
 basis of figuring. Now, does that make it clear? 
 
 Comm. BIRD. That is clear, Mr. Pat tee. I could not tell 
 without referring to the record; personally I do not remember, 
 strictly as a matter of memory, any change in the irBthod of 
 figuring having been called to the attention of the Commission. 
 I realize that the attention of the Commission had been called 
 to the changes in prices. 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. Yes, sir. ■'- 
 
 Comm. BIRD. The changes in costs, but I don't remember of 
 any change in method having been brought to the attention of 
 the Commission. I ma.y be in error. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. I simply don't want the Commission through 
 any line of questioning here tu leave the impression that, so 
 far as we are concerned in the submission of cost figures, we 
 have changed a ba,se or altered in any v/ay any of the figures 
 without calling such alteration to tiie attention of the Com- 
 mission and defining it, subjecting ourselves to any line of 
 examination with raspect to it that you impose. 
 
 Comm. BISD. That probably 7,-ould be on the records, if 
 there were any records of those meetings. 
 
i. ;t' J 
 
 .gnxiij •■•':. n. , . 
 
 .,; ijV&d RU j&J ?Ji:i.C 
 
 i.„ H. * O*,,: 
 
 'ivr'L :;«^f^ 
 
 If'oxe ^vluT, c^i/ocfs rni>{l£v.t nssd J-on evjsri sW .^'.^-YisAg .i;i;;:ol 
 
 »no?.ti.p:q.(T!Oc icl :(5iid be'S'xslie'. 
 -..;x..i;:or erii 'to nox Jrrs:! -^B eiit nerii ccnla iinA .aS'TTAI ,-. 
 
 evf sgnjET'o vieve cj ^jj v.<^ iflifco rreed sj^xi ^ ibnirti-yte-bni:.! I ,nox 
 yoitiamoO "io i&cfnien'c end- ni i:-€>j-icqe-i ^o ^6^-867^,3:^8 10 sbBcs evBfi 
 
 <'i -t Jon oij I Y-f^-i-sxtoateq ji-ioce'i exicf ^ • ■ /oiioX;v 
 
 Ic fcoiirf^': ^.iu■r fix egnibrio ^n^ < i^'-iomeiti lo 1 s bjb -^jl^fcxid-a 
 
 . •tcxf.exnTuTOO adi lO ncxdne^ciji-. jiiv o:t beLlBO n&ecf gnxvBfi gnxfwsi'i 
 
 .i'.-."Ii:o n&i;d ib.Gixi nGX8£l.xni:.ioC ei±t lo nclim. - -'j <t£fi'* er-'Ioe'i I 
 
 • secxiq ni segrt&r'-. v^n:' o:^ 
 ,1x6 ,S6y -ai:?TTA<? .iL! 
 lo 'leciii&fac'j :J'*nob I .jwc ^e^poc nx Etian-fe^iy sriT .C5''I3 -otix^r C 
 
 to xtDi: j-rct Jd-B en:) odf j/f^yoid neec' sniv.6.ri ;■ nx f.:.ri-.fin'o ■\jn£ 
 
 or. , '+ ncxsas'iqiiix tu'J bViicl uj eisd j,ninoJ.i3i: up "xo enxl ^ifxi 
 
 :^w .ae'tixgXi 3-300 xo ro rp;-x0idU8 ^-ii'' nl Jven-rronoo i:'ij3 evr ■?.. 'st;:'): 
 
 afciu2,x'i 6;£i- ao vns. ^-;\v -vn^ ni i.;;-i£:r_.-: 'iv C;::ijO j. .1. :.. ev^sa 
 
 -,:ro? tria iC no.;;;Ui.£:*- 1::^ eil? c •; iiox-'jcsv i-Iii nLo:- ;^rfxlxoi:c ^'x/nrfoi?; 
 
 .:.';*::t ;nf*li c&r,cfiij t-]"i ^y/irjlltL Ln£ noxaexc; 
 
 "ii. tB.b-iCDOi Gflo no &cf J).: IdBcfoic +ijrfT .asir: ,nir;ioD 
 
 . c"rix*t.e.r. c-oox{:i- 't.c sb'xoo-'x -^m-.^s t-xeA' &-•:'. 
 
Mr. PATTEE. And. if there were any changes which were not 
 called to your attention at that time, we disavow any faiilt in 
 not calling them to your attention, because they were not estab- 
 lished,!" igured or changed by us. We had no voice in changing 
 
 advice, soli citation 
 them, if any change v/as iriade. It was not made at our/or request. 
 
 Comm. BIBD. Who made these figures? 
 
 Ml'. PATTEE. I don't know. 
 
 Mr. DAVIS. I prepared those figures submitted today. 
 
 Q (By Comm. Sawyer.) You prepared the October figures, also? 
 
 A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q Those were not prepared by tne Commission? A. No. Those two 
 were prepared, and those cosxs,I believe, are taken point i^or 
 point, with the exception of feed and la.bor,as you have stated. 
 
 Q (By Comm. Bird. ) Did you prepare the cost figut-es? 
 
 Q I aid not. 
 
 Q Who did prepare those? Were they prepared by the Oommission of 
 th» producers? A. I believe specialists from Massachuse-cts 
 and Maine v/ere dovm here assisting xn the preparation of those. 
 
 Q Assisting the producers or the Commission? A. Now, if you 
 can define where one leaves off and the oth3r begins, I will 
 answer the quesT.ion. 
 
 Q These are your figures that you submit today? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q Not the Commission's? A. No. 
 
 Q That is what I mean. Were those figures for August prepared l>y 
 the Producers or were they prepared by the Commission, through 
 Dr. Gilbert? A. By the Commission through ■ 
 
 Q There was a point when the producers said they would have to 
 
 j cease preparing the evidence, and that the Coimnission would have 
 
 to prepare it themselves. A. Prepared by the Commissifin 
 
 through Dr. Gilbert. I put in what time I had available in those 
 
 months assisting in that preparation. I wasthare probably a 
 few hours . 
 
 I 
 
-oacr ... . . ■ 
 
 owj" ©GorlT .oil .A Tnoxayiiiusic'' e-io y'-^ i;3"£.!-:.qeiq .toii t^^^-.. ■.-.-. x- 
 
 ^' :v- .. . ^j ■ .. . ',.^ .ai^ 6-s^. .. . .-, .. - :. JixG. (.t'tilS .liiiiioC '-^^ 
 
 . ■; C;t bii^ X i^ 
 
 .■;■:.■ ici- lo .no^.jfi'^^^i.'iiT fiiCr ox ;^nx;'SX3s^^ O'lori nwoi:, eiSsV ... tnB 
 
 sjox XX ^^rvot^' .Si ?noxus.tra;r:0': ei^.^ 10 : : viii e- :' 
 
 j..L.'.vv X ^:-~x:ii.c '; ■' ■■' "-■* ■:■"'■ "/?': ■"^^'.«f■X esto s,iiy_Iw snx .:..., ....c 
 
 . ifo X J 8 ex; r 6ii.t 1 9Wc nsi 
 
 . i,i.l: ,ir.5Y «A "^ , TXAidUS a/O v: Jx^-PiO- Ct . TUG-/.- eTX E .-: ;^ 
 
 VCJ jj£'IX. -itJ'iC^ J' SiJ I.'i"--'-- ""5; '■>. 9-J.v.i.t ri£.-> •. ■!£?£■; X 
 
 '... v-;";....i.j. - V . ,. . ..i^ i *;,■-■ .1..:. 0..-xC jagi.) ■. 
 
Q There are just one or two more questions I v/ould like to ask 
 you. Taking the returns received on these 300 questionnaires, 
 how many of these men out of the 300 actually fed grain them- 
 selves? A. I didn't tabulate the actual ones fed or those 
 that didn*t feed, but, as I recall, only two or three men out 
 of the 300 were not feeding grain during that month. I have the 
 questionnaires here and will file them with the Commission, if 
 you wish. In regard to the information that I took off those 
 questionnaires, I didn't attempt to tabulate ail the questions 
 on there. They had only a general bearing on the whole situ- 
 ation. If you want the specific information on number of cows 
 and the amount of milk, it is there, and the amount of grain 
 purchased during the month, and the amount of grain fed during 
 the month. It is there. 
 
 There are things that are important, I think, in the minds of 
 i these 
 
 the Commission, because/questions have come up with the Commiss- 
 ion before. First, how many farmers are actually feeding grain, 
 how many of those farmers actually employ labor outside of 
 their own, and statistics of that kind, which might be obtained 
 from a report of this kind, so that we may know upon what we 
 
 are reallv basing our conclusions? Another thing, can you tell 
 I 
 me on these reports that you have turned in how many pounds of 
 
 milk on the average these cows produce? A. The average 
 
 amount of milk per month was reported. I can go through those 
 
 questionnaires and prepare all this additional information, 
 
 but we have not done so. 
 
 Q You have asked these questions, and then you have not given 
 
 the Commission the benefit of the information that you have 
 
 obtained from the questionnaires, which information would be 
 
 important to the Commission. That is v/hat I mean. We ought 
 
 to have the whole of it, not a part of it. A. I see. 
 
-,.•-.: j al&t:^ foe'i vJ.1&l }S ©xi: . lo ynBtc woxt 
 
 f-'^Of\.^ "£0 fcel aeno ._-,. . .... sxio -»iSil.,- . . ' . 
 
 ■■;..:: nsni sstricf to ovsj vino ^IX£-oei I BiS tdi.ia ^Xie^'l j*£jii.x. ijSii^ 
 
 vi:,-; I .ri.-tnom disrij '^ni'sut nis'sg r^nxijeel Jon 005 '-cio 1o 
 
 'U ^noxssxwfiicC ertJ ajiv nierid" elil J.Liv bn& e'tfrd Beti.&n.nolSnBuc 
 
 -..,.. '.ic sloifr sj-Cj- no snx'iBCcf Is-seiteg -s \'inc .ciir: 'c^riT .eiexi-t nc 
 
 sViOo lo i6or.u!n nc ncir ' .r ox'ilc- it dn^w jjov H .ncxje 
 
 r:xi:'ie -'-^ inxfosfi &ii,t .bns t&'r.t.riu ax tl ^xXlrc 'lo ;3niiOfQiJ srirf Ln^ 
 
 .e';ttr^:t sx ;tl .iid^nom &iij 
 lo .'-,X)ni£s en^ n.t ^^U-uxij I ,.:*Riioioqmx e'iB t&rit agrfiri^ ei.c ei'tii''' 
 
 ,nxi3\5 5,;ij..^.ti ^lliisjsoB e-xri isit.ntB'i vnsc: worf ,j8TXa . eioled nci 
 
 xsd'wo iOOfi Yolqms vlLsniof-:- e-iBit.^.s'i esorij lo vni-us svox-t 
 
 u'-::xBJ<fc ed tr-itt :<oti!vf ^brt:' :^-rf? lo Kox^axctf:*!; Lns:- ^nwo -J: 
 
 ew 3i;drt no;^^ Aoivji \.jc:.. t;v^, _ .,iLj ^■.:, ^&rrx:i[ a.tri:+ lo iioqet z aiot'i 
 
 i.: r ijiic tgKXitJ -leridl-onA T&noisalcrfoo -wo soxaflcf vSls^^i^ eiii 
 
 ic ■: ?•.-.'/ oc v.f7.Ba -.vCii r?x bsaxy^ fv-:.-' ;;o-^ j&i<J scj'ioqe'? ePfer^J- no era 
 
 ■.■:., iws, oxiT .A ^ooj-fi^cvc svvcc essii;^ ejicisvi erfj ko :.'Iirt 
 
 ri3iu;0'i:{J o^ nLO I .iio.t'iciie-s iiS:^: ri:^r:on: -i&c^ > o inv . - 
 
 c- .'-ri i;ov cterd noi:fii:j; iOlnx exi^- lo ctxl^asc; onr- iioxpoXmtaoO t.^. 
 fed foiijCA' n'~ii:t;;2:-ii:";ur:i: r'oiiiiw ^si^txBnnoxjtsei/^ erlr nio-i't Jbeftliitc:: 
 eW „; ox ?sx<T ,■ ' - "C i^A^ oi :!r-ici'ic^; .i 
 
47 
 
 Comni. BI5D. If there is any misunderstanding in regard 
 to this, Mr. Chairman, I think a statement should be made to 
 the Producers so as to make it perfectly clear that when changes 
 in the formula for figuring these costs are made by the Pro- 
 ducers the matter shall be specifically called to the attention 
 of the Commission. Jt may have been done, but I simply make 
 this suggestion in order to clarify the thing. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Mr. Pat tee, will you se3 that this is 
 done? 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. I will not only see that it is done, but I 
 understand, so far as we have made changes that has been done. 
 I want it made perfectly clear to the Commission that there has 
 been no intention of misleading the Commission. 
 
 Comm. BIHD. And I am not accusing yOu of that. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. I know, and we do not intend to be accused. 
 Our understanding of the whole matter is this, tnat when Mr. 
 Boutell ?/as here he was here in the interests of the Commission 
 and that these changes in the base figures of the Chamber were 
 made by him iinder the direction of the Commission for the pur- 
 pose of making the base figure right. You did not leave it 
 to us, but hired this man. 
 
 Comm. SAWYER. When was Mr, Boutell here? 
 
 Mr. PATTES. In the month of June, if I ramember correctly, 
 the hearing for fixing the prices being in July, when those 
 changes were made. 
 
 Comm. SAWYER. In August, I think. 
 
 Dr. GILBERT. Ke v/as here during last July. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Then, I may have gotten the wrong month. 
 
 Comm. SAWYER. What I wish to call your attention to, Mr. 
 
 Pat-tee, is this, that there have been changes made for depre- 
 
II .ofri" 
 
 ?f'."r;:.: 
 I ■:tijci ,cnGb fex J^ :'.huj toa viae ^ton iiivc I .SISTTA*? .-"iiti 
 
 ,.i.sr[d" iO ijn-,- p^n.tcj.'oOjB C"Cn r.B I JbnA . -nw-OO 
 
 T'ii.1 nSi^A :t:x-.j ^c^^.; ;jiX -i. ;^ :*-x'r(' oloife ^:.rid "^.c ■ ■' '■ ;■ 'r;'if;i>nu f^C 
 , sxnrjriOC arii '10 8:tae'^e>:fr;i erU ni e-i od afivv ei'. e'lexi ax.-w iIe.+0Of 
 
 :U sviseX j-cn Joxx; s-jo'f .^xisx-^ ©'ii/gxl esiSd eitJ- 3^x.>^£aI to esoc 
 
 ,ri£m air!;)- lisixxi '".uci ^j^rj • 
 ^6'feri Ilr..;...'; .!_... a^v^ neriW .«'SYWA?3 ,r^KoO 
 t\^d"OiT-i^;: "irt. -.i I 'ix ^ v-ni; ;j-ao;2. e.do nl .5' .-ilii: 
 
 n^ulvv <^Xisu fix j^nxtio aeorxq exi? ■^iflTi't -sol jni'iBftrf sriu 
 
 .xiir;0;ii gcJC'jv^ a.ii* r?S-;-:'Oa -■•-■^- Y'Sra i , . . :-•.'? ,-sh 
 
'to 
 elation in the October returns over the figures for August, 
 
 which, so far as I know — and I have been at all the hearings,- 
 have not been called to the attention of the Commission, lor 
 instance, depreciation for the state of Maine has been increas- 
 ed from |13.50 to |15.30; for the state of New Hampshire, from 
 .85 to |19.20; for the state of Vermont, from |l3.65 to 
 .55; for Massachusetts,- well, that is the same, at -115.75; 
 and for Connecticut, from $14.70 to |l7.25. Now, those are 
 changes that were given to us in the October return. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Will the Commissioner compare those figures 
 with the valuation of the cows? 
 
 Coram. SAVvTSR. Well, the valuation of the cows, unfortu- 
 nately, has not been given. I have compared it, myself. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. You have? 
 
 Gomm. SAWYER. Yes, and I cannot account for the increase 
 in depreciation. 
 
 liLr* PATTEE. I still reiterate that any change in figures 
 of that character that has been made in our figures has been 
 called to the attention of the Commission. At the time of the 
 
 I 
 
 adjustment made by Mr. Boutell there was a change, as I under- 
 stand it, in the percentage of|depreciation. Jl^ow, the increase 
 given might vary from month to month according to the valua- 
 tion of animals . 
 
 Comm. SAWYER. That is true, but what I am contending is 
 this . You say that these changes have been called to the at- 
 tention of the Commission. I take issue with you right there, 
 saying that they have not been called to the attention of the 
 Commission, and they are increases in every case. I am simply 
 saying, as Mr. Bird said a few minutes ago, that when such 
 
 I 
 
 changes are made we want to have them called to our attention. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. In other v^ords, when tho price of cows advances 
 
. , . • , J-J3 eiii <- . ■: 
 
 *n'iuie'i -if^oo^toC nrij rii bu oj ne-vi-g s*:!©-* d-srict sej; . c 
 
 'lo.'^OL bXii "50 noJ;:l-Bi;Xav ert:?- xid-x;. 
 
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 ^■.-".c'j: ::. c.-i .^.;.;C \:n.t J.,,:;.: &jr. i: .: .^^-i LIHb I .SS^TTA*! ^-^iM 
 
 ':.vO BFJi. at'i:o-2x'j; •iwo nx +£.nJ •ii.<'v.^'i.B<.io o 
 
 ctlj- lo efr-.tt r>ilt JA .iioissxitiittoO e.i">'.-^ iO noxj-iied'.tfi Oiid- o-+ beXIso 
 
 ea.ee'iOiix ©.ci^ ^-.f/CK. .^l:)x;^.BXoy''rqa.b,'io S3-e.tneo*j.6q edS ni ^-ti .bri.fi#s 
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 »elKisxnj:; Ic Kox;r 
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it would make a difference in tlie amount but not necessarily 
 in the percentage of depreciation. 
 
 Comm. SAWYER. In other ?/ords, a reason should be given 
 for the increase. We have had no opportunity to look these 
 over at previous hearings, if '.ve do have no?/, and these ques- 
 tions should have been brought up at the time. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. I think perhaps there may have been a mis- 
 understanding, but I still stand on the fact that no change 
 in the basic figures has been made by us arbitrarily in the 
 Chamber of Commerce figures, except such as v»ere made not by 
 us but by the expert employed by you. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Mr. Pattee, how many members are there in 
 your Association? 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. 14,000 — the last time I knew, it was 14,000 
 and some hundreds. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Approximately how many are outside of 
 Nav; England, would you say? I mean, ?v"hat is the total nvimber 
 of milk producers as such in New England? 
 
 Llr. PATTEE. Oh, that would be a hard thing to estimate. 
 Do you mean for all markets? 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Yss. Of course, your 14,000 do not ship 
 to Boston? 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Oh, no. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. It is simply a matter of interest. Give 
 your best estimate. 
 
 Mr, PATTEE. Commercial milk producers, probably 30,000. 
 
 Chairman AILLEN. Don't you think, for the purposes of the 
 Commission, that 300 questionnaires represent a small number 
 to work out any conclusion from? 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. It might or might not be, Mr. Chairman. We 
 have called the attention of the Coimnisaion repeatedly to the 
 
.ewiw relief t£ . ■ :■; - :Mi3 e- 
 
 o:'^aii:"fo on .t£;ri3" ;fsjB']: ; LIS a I ^cd , n.s,i3tebnij 
 
 Vd' c?cn eLvjiTi' 9'rew sB ifoi/s ctqso.)t6 tafS'ursx'j. ec:. .,J 'lo -rso'i-^ ■■'-■? 
 
 at s-terfJ e-iB s-ie: .:!.i^iv; wo/i ^s©*:^,e'5 .iM .KSJJ/ 
 
 *'■ ., -ii .. . :ii .aojs 3i3 S't . 
 
 is.de ""Cit oh 000, M -suev; ^--ri.ioc 10 .aeY ■. navn ii.ariG 
 
 . e:-.inx;l3S 7 sec! \ ■ 
 
 - .:;-x;:-! xlijuy i JTiPy&'iqe'i: cyiXBnno l.t Bexrn 00^ ,iiOX3 3Xnifi.oC 
 
 .isn':; .-ik ,;j^' :rar{ r^i^xia -to cfrisltv: :tl . • ' .■j:£ 
 
50 
 
 difficulty in reaching people in the time within which they have 
 had to be reached. You have called for sworn statements. You 
 are somewhat familiar with the conditions of living out in the 
 coiintry. You know, you must know, how- difficult it is, es- 
 pecially this year, to send out to farmers, men v^ho are un- 
 accustomed to this sort of thing, who are not familiar with 
 processes of this nature, a cold-blooded questionnaire dealing 
 with matters some of which, they have never kept track of, and 
 ask them to make it out, say, inside of a week, and go before 
 a Justice of the Peace and swear to it and send it in. To my 
 mind it has been a most remarkable thing that so many people 
 have done it. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. But you are trying all the time to get 
 your producers to keep books? 
 
 Mr, PATTEE. Yes, sir. --■ - 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Because that is what they ought to do? 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Yes, sir. -' ^ ' 
 
 Chairma.n ALLEN. And putting a burden upon them. I see 
 ithe difficulty there. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. I would call youi' attention to this, that a 
 great many of the people to whom these questionnaires have been 
 sent are not producers for the Boston market. They are pro- 
 ducers of milk, for instance, for jVIanchester, Nashua, Lowell, 
 Lawrence, Haverhill, Pall River, Nev/ Bedford, Worcester, 
 Springfield, Portland, Lewis ton. Auburn, Providence, and other 
 cities, and they fail to send in the costs of their production 
 to the Commission as far as Boston is concerned, v/hen they 
 don't send milk to Boston » 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Then, we should get more lists from those 
 who do send to Boston. It seems to us pretty clear that 300 
 is not a sufficient number to figure on. 
 
-u . ^ :. ^ c:i jijc bnea oi ,:-'i- . ^- - X&iceq 
 
 rtct-xft 'lioXl.crK&l Jon ytii -"-r- ^j^nxiit '? . .. : --- ■■ beLXiO&''.uoo& 
 
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 jj c enoh ev-Cii 
 
 "^ai^oo csoi oc^ Gieo;jiiO-iq ■ 
 
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 ■■ no^Bi?^ •■■■ 'i.Lb:. J3r; '-■• ■ * cio'o 
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 . : -. :r;:uisxx o;t x< diiwn :-fi-rloiVlu'i .s .■■.-in ^i 
 
51 
 
 Mr. PATTES. But. it seems to me you should bear this in 
 mind, that the 300 you get are the most desirable and the best 
 you could, select. That is evident, because those are the 300 
 who have enough interest in their business to knovv what they 
 are doing and to keep track, in some way, at least, of their 
 cost accounts, and sv^ear to them and send them to you for your 
 information. I believe the reports made by those made in that 
 v/ay are more reliable and a safer guide to yovir action than a 
 mass of figures that would not probably materially change the 
 sums, but would come from men having less interest in the bus- 
 iness. While I don't say that -300 are all that should be sent 
 in, I do believe, and I think some of you familiar with coimtry 
 conditions vi,dll agree with me, that, considering that we sent 
 out ourselves 1200, a good many of them to men who do not chip 
 in here, a return from 300 is, under all the conditions, all 
 that is to be fairly expected. 
 
 Chairman ALLEl^f. I think you should impress upon your 
 producers that there is some burden on their part tc Justify 
 what they are asking for. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Yes, sir. 
 
 Chairman ALL.E;N. And to a larger extent than they are now 
 doing. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. That effort has been constantly made. But 
 you must make some allowances for the situation, Mr. Chairman. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. I do. I live in the coxintry, surrounded 
 by my friends, some of them farmers who do not take any stock 
 in books anyway. 
 
 Mr. PATT.EE. Well, I would like to make this statem.ent. 
 I may err in malcing it, but I believe this is a thing that has 
 had a tremendous influence on tr^e number of questionnaires that 
 have been returned. The tabulations that have been made from 
 
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 . ;%£!.>; Oi> 
 
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I 52 
 
 the questionnaires that originated, at least, with this Com- 
 mission, and have been since maintained, as shcv/ing the cost of 
 malcing milk, have, as a result of sworn statements in every 
 case, shown a very considerably higher cost of production than 
 I the Commission has been willing to aw^ard to the producers for 
 their milk, and I have repeatedly myself in uoavarsation with 
 producers, asking them to send in such reports, last with this 
 objection,- "Yiliat does it amoimt to? It doesn't fix the price 
 ' of milk." 
 
 Ohairma.n ALLEE". Perhaps if you got 30,000 of them it 
 , woiild have more weight with the Commission. 
 
 Mr, PATTEE. I don't knov/ whether it wouJ.d or not, but 
 at the first hearing we had nearly 3000, over 2000, a.nd that 
 had less weight than the recant less price we presented. That 
 is, the prices you have found recently, with less question- 
 naires, came nearer what they shovv' than when you had over 2000 
 to go by. 
 
 Comm. SAWYEB, I wish the Producers would file with the 
 Commission the 300 questionnaires upon which they base the 
 November estimates, 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. We would be very glad indeed to do that. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Do you want them tabulated? 
 
 Comm. gA\yYEP, No, take them as they are, 
 
 Mr. PATTEE, We will be glad to file the originals or any 
 tabxolation desired, 
 
 Comm, SAWYSP. But I v/ould first like to have Mr. Davis, 
 or some one in your Association, answer questions that may be 
 asked in regard to some of the details. 
 
 Mr. DAVIo, I shall be vexy glad to do so, 
 
 Mr, CLARE. Mr. Chairman, I would simply like to suggest 
 that the 300 returns, Mr, Davis says, are practically the same. 
 
■■£01 eieouX'Otqeiid' o,-^ btfiwe o^t^ ^..nilliw ne^d ssii noxac 
 . .■ '..ill ■il.ea\im ^^.Lbe.v+iJoqs'x ev&.r! I ,,.: . ^ .. 
 
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 .n'.-i \X6w eiO' 
 
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b5 
 
 Now, if there was a difference, or a large difference, in those 
 that were returned, I thinic you wouJ.d be Justified in raising 
 that point; but Yifhen you get 300 reports from all over ¥ew 
 England and they are practically the same, why are they not 
 just as good as 3000? You would only get the same thing with 
 3000. 
 
 Chairman ALLE:m. Mr. Clark, how do you know that the 3000 
 would be alike, if we do not gat them? 
 
 Mr. CLARK. Well, if you get 300 practically the same, 
 why are you not justified in coming to the conclusion that the 
 rest woxild be the same? 
 
 Chairman ALLE¥. If you should follow the same line of 
 argvunsnt, you might say that 10 would be stiff icit^nt. 
 
 Mr. CLAPK. No, I would not consider that that would be so. 
 
 Chairman AI.LEN. And that if the cost sho\'vn by those 10 
 all over New England was the same, we wouldn't need any more 
 returns on q.uestionnaires . 
 I Mr. CLARK. Well, I tvoaldnn consider 10 representative, 
 but I think 300 from all over New England, which are practical- 
 ly the same, woiold be representative. -; ■ 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. I would say chat we do not consider that 
 300 is a sufficient number, and I suppose you have respect for 
 our judgment? 
 
 Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; alv/ays have. .. ., 
 
 Chairman ALLlilN. I do not say Lhat we would want 30,000, 
 but we do think 300 is a rather small niomber. You say you 
 had already previously got 2000. Now, if all of your farmers 
 are getting the feeling, "What is the use of doing this?" I 
 think a little editorial in your paper might help. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Mr. Chairman, if you had been a subscriber to 
 our paper you wov-la nave seen such editorials. Now, with entire 
 
oos 
 
 on 
 
 ^ii::-:^;:i- ,' S-5 JOti 0£i S\f7 11 , ejfxIiJ ftO ullfCV. 
 
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deference to the Coinrnission, we are simply wondering whether 
 this line of inquiry covers the question, and whether, in view 
 of the position the Commission now seems to te taking, it is 
 justified in taking the costs of distribution of two or three 
 dealers? 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. You do recognize the difficulties on the 
 other side, then? 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. I certainly realize the position you are in, 
 yes. 
 
 Q (By Comm. O'liare.) Mr. Davis, I would like to ask you a ques- 
 tion. Is it customary to pay more for regular farm labor, 
 steady farm labor, than for the day labor that you hire from 
 time to time? -.-A. This compilation here of the wage per 
 month without board includes the average cost of those farmers 
 reporting the value of their own labor, which in practically 
 every instance has been $100 per month or more. 
 
 Q Well, taking the state of Maine, for instance, we have m the 
 I first column labor with board, |37.50, and labor without board 
 $99. A. That labor with board probably includes only that 
 which they hire by the .month, but does not include the operators 
 or the owners of the farms own time. ITcw, the questionnaires 
 this time asked for the man's valuation of his ov^n time, what 
 he considered it worth, without board. 
 
 Q You estimate that as less than the hired labor? A. Well, 
 these are just v^rhat the questionnaires show. It is what they 
 have placed on the thing, not what I estimate it. 
 
 Q I am trying to get that from you as a witness Defore the Com- 
 mission. A. I think the operator's own time is worth much 
 more than that of the average farm laborer which he will employ. 
 
 Q Then, I understand what in regard to the day labor? Is that 
 
 the hired labor? JTor instance, is the owner of tiie farmi in- 
 I 
 
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DO 
 
 eluded in the estimate of |37.50 per month with board and |99 
 
 without board, or does h.e come in the |2.50 and |3 a day class? 
 I 
 A The |2.50 and |3 a day is for the miscellaneous day labor they 
 
 hire occasionally, as reported on the :iuestionnaire. That is 
 the tabulated average of those reporting on the hired labor. 
 The other figures are the average, as reported, for labor em- 
 ployed all the time. The ^99 is the man's ovm time, without 
 board. The figures run along with surprising xiniformity, you 
 ' will notice,- |99, |99, |92, |93 and |99. 
 Q What do you find on the price of feed? In some cases it is 
 lov/er than for the last month, isn't it? A. In practically 
 every instance it is lov-er. They averaged about |65 the last 
 time, and this time the figures run along at $62, $60, ^61, 
 $62 and $60. 
 Q I think you show some increases in the cost of labor from last 
 
 month? A. And there are some decreases. ; i 
 Q Where? A. I think Kev/ Hampshire has decreased. 
 
 I Gomm. SAWYER. New Hampshire has, yes, tv;o cents. 
 Q (By Comm. O'Hare.) What is the greatest difference? A. ITot 
 over two cents. Any more questions? 
 Gomm. O'HAKE. That is all. 
 
 Gomm. BIRD. In the Chamber of Commerce survey the farmer 
 was figured at the average day wage, the hourly rate, and than, 
 to compensate him for his additional ability, and so forth, 
 over the ordinary farm laborer, he v;as given ten per cent on 
 the entire amount. Now, you have advanced the wage to the ovvn- 
 er, and he still gets ten per cent, and gets ten per cent on 
 that advance to himself. Isn't that correct? 
 
 Mr. DAVIS.- That is the report. It is a question whether 
 you want to take the operator's own time and determine it from 
 that or whether you want to take the average wage and determine 
 
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 56 
 
 it from that. 
 
 Q When you say "the operator's o\vn time", you mean his own valu- 
 I at ion of his o^oti time? A. Yes» 
 
 Q I v/ish somebody would pay me for my own valuation of my own 
 time. The Commissioners /v0\jld probably like to be paid their 
 own valuation of their own time, also. Has there been any 
 check placed upon that, or have you just accepted the man's 
 valuation of his own time? A. Well, we have accepted it 
 as his sworn statement; that is all. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Ji'or whatever it shows. 
 
 Q (By Oomm. Bird.) On the average how did that run on the 300, 
 the average valuation of the man's own time? A. |75 to |160, 
 as they reported. 
 
 Q On the average, how much was that over the price that the farmer 
 could hire help for on the same basis, with board or without 
 board, whichever you have included. A. Board v/as reported 
 on the average -- I did not tabulate it, and very few reported 
 it, but what few did,- at a dollar a day, and if you add |30 
 a month to the price without boa,rd you would get what the 
 average laborer's vvage woxild be, provided you figure it with- 
 out board, which is the only reasonable -way to get at it. 
 
 Q Your figure for labor with board is 137.50? A, In Maine; 
 ^49 in "Mew Hampshire, $46 in Vermont, |45 in Massachusetts and 
 $49 in Connecticut. 
 
 Q The average of that would be what? Plave you averaged it? 
 
 A Uo, sir. I imagine it woiad be around ^45 or ^46, and adding 
 the |30 I refer to would raaike it about $75 per month. 
 
 Q Now, youjr owner here is figured without board, and he gets his 
 board out of the farm^? A. The question was asked in this way: 
 j "What do you consider a fair value for your ovi/n time per month 
 without board?" And the top one here, from Vermont, says. 
 
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 :^;jo.ri'flw -xo b-r ^i:;,i5£cr ee.&a sriJ no -iol qls^i if^-ild .bluco 
 
 bcfiorc'i D... ._ ..> . . ■.bi.sjuL'^cii iiVt-d vo\[ 'le'Verfoif'.v/ ^b'xBOcl 
 
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 „ . c--^:.:! nx ijo.;'!-:;,^ Bi^w ncioseui.. t%i-'-- .'. Sf-a^i.til :•;;;.;■ xo / 
 , - ^ :•-.... ;..-..■: ^S'x&ii (-no qci--e£i:- oii^ "'^iyi-o. 
 
Presumably that man from Vermont, of whom you are speaking 
 there, puts his tiras down at ^95 and gets a large part of his 
 living expenses out of the farm, besides; so that indirectly 
 he gets a good deal of his board from the farm. A.- ¥.rhy, the 
 raw materials, of course, that the farm produces, furnish him 
 with his board. 
 
 Q Well, that is quite a xTiSterial part of his board, so that indi- 
 rectly he is getting his board as well as ^95, or at least a 
 large portion of his board as well as $95, so that that man is 
 receiving the equivalent, we will say, of something like $115, 
 on top of which he is receiving ten per cent for his managerial 
 ability. Isn*t that correct? A. Yes, that is true on this 
 basis of figuring. We took advice at the time Professor 
 Bcutell was here, and some of the other State representatives 
 were down, and we said, "What is the fairest basis for determin- 
 ing the wage — per month with board or per month without 
 board?" They said, "Use it psr month without board and convert 
 it back to hours." ?row, their recominendation was that a 26- 
 day month and 10-hour day be used. On the figures presented 
 this time they figure on a 30-day month and a 10 -hour day- 
 
 Q (By Gomm. 0*Fare.) Will you explain how you found the differ- 
 ence between the costs of the board of the farm owner and the 
 employee? A. Well, it is not determined there. The farm 
 owner places a higher value on his time than he does on the 
 time of his hired man. 
 
 I 
 
 Q The figure here is $99 without board, and for the employee $3 
 a day without board, and |2.50 with board. That is allowing 
 |15 a month for the employee's board and for the board of the 
 farm owner $G1.50, isn't it? A. Well, the average of those 
 per month with board is $45. i 
 
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I 58 
 
 Q V/hat I want to make plain is, how you get at the difference in 
 cost of board for the farmer himself and the employee. A. You 
 car*t get it from the tabulation here. 
 
 Q The farmer himself has his board figured at *61.50, and that 
 for the hired man at $15? A. Well, you can't r^et it accu- 
 rately from this tabulation, because you are comparing ti?/o 
 classes of help -- the operator's time and the laborer's time. 
 The questionnaires, running them through, run around a dollar 
 a day or |30 a month for board, and that plus $45 would give 
 you $75, which would be for the laborer's time, the average 
 hired laborer's time, $75 a month without board. 
 
 Q (By Comm. Bird. ) With board? A. Without, You have added 
 your board to it, 
 
 Q ' (3y Comm. O'Kare.) I aon'.t get that quite clear in my mind. 
 It seems to me there is 300 per cent difference here. 
 
 A Ke pays the man in cash $45 on the average, his hired laborer. 
 Many of them have reported over that and some under. You cannot 
 compare that, in order to get youjr board, with what the opera- 
 tor has placed as t^ie value on his own time here, can you, to 
 determine your value of board? That is, you cannot subtract 
 $45 from $92, say, and get the value of board, because you are 
 comparing operator's time and laborer's time. But the ques- 
 tionnaires sh0v7, by r;mning through them, that those w^ho have 
 I reported the value of board place it at about a dollar a day, 
 which, added to the amount paid to a laborer without board for 
 a month, say $45, gives you a full expense for the laborer of 
 $75 a month. 
 
 Q Well, you admit this, don't you, that in the case of the farm 
 owner the board runs over $2 a day? A. You are referring to 
 the $92? 
 
 Q $99, taking the figures for Llaine and allowing $61.50 a month 
 
nj^o ■ - ■; ^XlsW 
 
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59 
 for board? ^, That man who is reported at |;99 is not getting 
 any more for his board. At |30 a month, ha is getting |69 a 
 month for his time, as I interpret the figures. You simply 
 deduct the board from this man's time. He simpl;/ answers this 
 question: "What do you consider a fair value for your time 
 without board?" Nov/, that means that he has included the 
 
 board in this price. If you deduct $30 from $99, you got $69, 
 what he figures that his time is worth apart from board. 
 Q {By Oomm. Bird.) If you ask a man specifically for the value 
 
 , on his time without board, I aon't see why you should turn 
 around and drav/ the conclusion that he has given his answer 
 
 ' with board > A. Well, I do not interpret it in any other way 
 than that the man has put a value on his time and has included 
 his board in that valuation. 
 
 Ohairman ALL-rtN. I think Mr. Davis is right on tiiat . If 
 you ask a man what he wants for his time, paying his ovvn board, 
 the result vi/ould be the same as if you asked hiai for the value 
 of his time without board, and you would simply have to make 
 the deduction for what the board would be. In the first case, 
 he would put in a figure for his time only. 
 Q (By Comm. Bird.) Just a moment, Mr. Chairman. I asked Mr. 
 
 Davis a question before that. The question was whether the man 
 who was charging himself at $99 was not getting a considerable 
 
 ' portion of his board from the fann? A. Yes, but he has 
 placed a cash value on it and he has estimated the value of 
 his time. 
 Q Well, he is charging $99 to his costs, for his time, and he is 
 getting in addition to the $99 a considerable portion of his 
 living expense from that farm, ailthough he is charging himself 
 
 , at $99 v/ithout board. I don't see why that might not amount, 
 say, to $20, giving the man the equivalent approximately of 
 
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$120 a month? A. That is, adding the 10 per cent? 
 Q No, simply taking the amount of living expense that he is get- 
 ting out of the farm himself in addition to the .i?99 at which 
 he has charged himself. A. Is he or is he not entitled to 
 
 put a cash value on that which the farm furnishes him? 
 
 i 
 
 Q He is entitled to do so, but have you charged him in your re- 
 port with vvliat he himself takes out of the farm? A. No. 
 
 Q Well, if you have not, and the farm produces it, he has got 
 the value of it and his ^99 besides. If that is true, that 
 owner is getting the equivalent of about $120 on this $99 basis, 
 or '</jiat you might call $100 a month, which is $45 over and 
 above the price of his hired laborer, which is $540 a year, and 
 that is not taking into consideration the 10 per cent which he 
 is rsceiving in the costs for his managerial ability, besides. 
 He is being paid a higher wage on account of his managerial 
 ability, and then he is receiving 10 per cent besides. Isn't 
 that correct? A. That is true. 
 
 Q Nov/, do you think that is right? A. I think that 10 per cent, 
 perhaps, should be cut out of that, _• ■.. - . •: .• ; , 
 
 Q What I am getting at is this, that there nas been a change 
 
 made in the original base or schedule upon which the costs were 
 computed at first. It was felt that it was not fair that the 
 man who ov/ned the farm should only receive a day's wage, and 
 I therefore 10 per cent was included. Now, there has slipped 
 into the proposition -- whether right or wrong I am not arguing?- 
 simply calling to the attention of the Commission the fact that 
 it is there,- an additional wage of $45 a month, the equivalent 
 of that, above the day's wage to the laborer, and in addition 
 to the 10 per cent that was figured into the cost. I am not 
 arguing whether it is right or not, but I want to know whether 
 that is a proper statement, and, if so, the Coiataission ought 
 
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\ 6-i. 
 
 to knew it. 
 
 Q (By Goxmn. O'Hare.) Will you tell us wiiat the incrsase allowed 
 
 I 
 by the farmer for his labor here is, over August? A. I don't 
 
 know that I have my August figures here. (Examining figures.) 
 
 In New Hampshire in August the price per hour was figured at 
 
 32 cents, and in November at 33 cents. In Massachusetts in 
 
 November it is31 cents, and in August it was 33 cents. 
 
 Q Have you got it by days, Mr. Davis, the same as it is on this 
 sheet? A. I don't know that I have. (Examining figures.) 
 By the day, without board, in Maine in August it was |3.16, 
 and in November $3; in New Hampshire for the same months, |5.34 
 and $3.25; in Massachusetts, |5.40 and 03.25; in Vermont, |3.25 
 in August and ^3 in November; and in Connecticut, in August 
 13.21 and in November |3. 
 
 Q I What percentage do you figure that, as an increase? A. Aide- 
 crease for November over August,- a decrease. 
 
 Q, Can you give us your figures for August on the employees? 
 
 A No. That was not available; that ;iuestion was not asked. This 
 is the first time that any question in the questionnaire was 
 asked to determine the operator's own time, and it is the first 
 time that it has entered into these figures, at all. 
 
 Q Can you give me any figures to snow whether these figures set 
 forth an increase for the employees over August? A. These 
 do not show. If we use the operator's reporc of his own time 
 it will show an increase. I don't know what the percentage is. 
 
 Q To the employees. A. The employees. Well, they run practi- 
 cally the same,- in Maine, $44 in August, November |37.50; 
 New Hampshire, 3p44 in August, $49 in November; In Vermont, 4^2 
 in August, in November |46 ; in Massachusetts, $5.92 in August, 
 |45 in November. 
 
 Q Runs along about the same average,- about the same? 
 
XT 
 
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62 
 
 A Those run right along about tha same. 
 
 Q Can you tell us, Mr. Davis, when there has been a-ny increase 
 
 I 
 allowed to farm labor? A. The price per hour has been de- 
 termined, not with board but without board, at |72.87, $75.86, 
 |71. 66, and so forth. 
 
 Q Averaging about the same as this? A. Those average about the 
 same. As I say, the operator's time came into the question- 
 naire this time. 
 
 Q Can you tell us v/hether there has been any increase in wages 
 to farm labor since the Commission has been m existence, or 
 during the last year? A. Oh, I think there have been in- 
 creases . 
 
 Q When? A. They may have bean very gradual. Those who didn't 
 wish to pay the increase, many of them, have cut dov/n the size 
 of the herds, and .-oany of them are doing their own v-ork. I 
 think more of that condition exists today than at any other 
 time. It is shown by the milk supply in the city, now, that 
 we are shorter during this season, as it has been reported to 
 me, than at any other time for several years. The only other 
 explanation of it is that farmers have been obliged to do a 
 large part of their own work and have cut down the size of 
 their dairies to that point. 
 I Comm. O'HASS. That is all. 
 
 Q I (By Comm. Sav/yer. ^ You do not take any responsibility, then, 
 for the reports of the costs of production for August? -^ 
 
 A No , s ir . 
 
 Q Mr. Pat tee puts that up to the Commission. A. I spent 
 a fevtf hours in assisting in preparing those in August, and 
 those changes were made at that time and were presented, and 
 it is my recollection that changes would be discussed at the 
 executive meeting of the Commission and were not gone over 
 
, ' c . ;- ^ s. i.- «.c-ii- l-'.-u .. '^..ic- 
 
 
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 publicly. I know that the exhibit was merely filed and that 
 no explanation was made of it either by Professor Bout ell or 
 by Dr. Gilbert. That is as far as I know, and I assume that 
 at that time they went over those changes, or that if they 
 studied the exhibit at all they would have seen those changes, 
 and any previous figuros that might go in would go in on the 
 same basis; that you had the exhibit at that time and could 
 look it over; and we have reported on the same system since 
 that date, with the exception of a change in the valuation of 
 cows, as shown by the questionnaires. We asked that question, 
 for them to report what the average value was, because many 
 reports showed that they were figuring in their vailue, and to 
 get at it we asked the fanner to report what the value was. 
 
 Q Uow, Mr. Davis, as we have understood it, the other costs, so- 
 called, in the Chamber of Commerce report were as a rule used. 
 Now I find that in August, for Hew Hampshire, use of buildings 
 was increased from ^5.65, as given in the Chamber of Commerce 
 report, to $9.73, in August, as reporc^d by the Nev/ England 
 Milk Producers Association. Now, I wonder what autnority there 
 was for making any such change as that. It was not called to 
 the attention of the Commission, except as it was given to us 
 in the report. There is nothing in the questionnaires to show 
 that the use of buildings should be increased, is there? 
 
 A I think at that time there was filed with the Gnamber a revision 
 of the New Hampshire figures, and you will also find a revision 
 of the Massachusetts figures coming in at about that time. That 
 is, you will find that tne quantity figures for feed m the 
 Massachusetts report have changed. 
 
 Q Yes, I noticed that. A. Those changes were all made at that 
 time. 
 
 Q They were all made, but were not called to the attention of 
 
i \0 - 
 
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the Coiui'jaission. A. I don't know whose responsibility it was 
 to get them called to the attention of the Commission. If when 
 the report was presented it was discussed, it woiold have been 
 brought out, as far as I can see. 
 Q (By Comm. O'Hare.) Mr. Davis, can you tell me whether there 
 , has been any geraeral increase allowed to farm labor since '.Tur 
 has been declared? A. Oh, yes. 
 Q| .What is it? A. Why, farm labor was ordinarily hired at $30 
 to $35 a month. That is my general recollection. 
 That is with board? A. Yes, sir. 
 Q An increase of $2.50 a month? A. That is my general impress- 
 ion of what it was costing before the war, and prices have 
 varied a great deal since then. 
 Q Can you give us the price of milk that the farmer got f.o.b. 
 Boston at the time war was declared? A. I cannot give it to 
 you offhand. I can look it up. 
 
 Comiii. O'HARE. Perhaps Mr. Pattee couJLd give it to us. 
 Mr. PATTEE. That was a year ago last April? 
 Comm. O'HARE. Probably Mr. Wliiting or Mr. Hood would be 
 able to give it to us. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. I think the Commission, if it undertakes to 
 pursue that inquiry, could pursue it more intelligently with 
 some knov/ledge of conditions that obtained at that time. 
 
 Comm. O'HARE. That is Just the point I am trying to get 
 at, Mr. Pattee. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Yes. I am afraid I cannot make it plain with- 
 out making some kind of a statement. If you wish me to/''so, I 
 will state that previous to a year ago in August, which was 
 some time subsequent to the declaration of war, there was no 
 general system for the purchase of milk whereby it could be de- 
 termined what it cost delivered in Boston Different prices 
 were paid in different sections, depending on conditions in 
 
A 
 
 eisd.t lertlexiw em lied wo^ rit-o »8iv£'i .'i«I {.atfiH*0 frfiimoC -^jS) 
 <:£■?; 6oni".K •sod-Bl nii^i od- i^swoIlB ©gseioai luxanes ^aa aeecf 
 
 .£ev, ^xfO ,A '^fcs'i.sics.b need ^-... 
 
 ;^; . :*■» bs'iiri x-^-- ■ ••' 'i<^'^-=^ c.iiBl: ^vrf^ .A "^ :■ x ax ^fi" 
 
 .'liu ^seY ,A '^ii-iiiocf xiixw 2X _; 
 
 .•Qn^a, 'i^ si wi-.u'I . '• ". 0<2..h| "io ecseicnx n/ 
 
 e ox-jq i)n.6 »tiiw exit e-jo"isd gn.td'soo asv. ix Jiiii-.-; lo nox 
 
 4'iv.iv;; eonX3 lnQb o^e'r:. .s bexisv 
 
 .ci.o.l j-oji teint.'-^^i B.±t ii^ii^ Altm 20 eoxiq oiio Si/ ©vx^ i/o'^ rtisC 
 
 ...; >j-i -.vi-g j-ontKCo I ,A ^fce'XBxosJb saw -iBv? er I -t^ nOv^aoS 
 
 .D.J ecr .: X ©"Xg 'ji eM(j£> 
 
 . C' -•'..: .^&1 •liii <.t.C 
 
 ^. .... bftfixxtrifed" 
 
65 
 
 those sections t Where you have perhaps now a twelfth zone, in 
 which the price is uniform, at the time of declaration of war^ ■ 
 
 Comci. 0*HAPE. My question was, f.o.b. Bosoon, Mr. Pattee. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Yes. Well, in order to know what he gets for 
 it f.o.b. Boston you would have to know v/hat he got for it back 
 there. The price was made so much back there, and the price 
 for it depended, you know, like Doolay's Breakfast J'ood, on who 
 you w^ere. That is one of the things that v/e have tried to re- 
 duca to uniformity. At that time, at the time of declaration 
 of war, producers living in the same zone, whex-e the cost of 
 transportation, the cost of bringing it in, was the same, got 
 varying prices. Unless you know about the varying prices, I 
 don*t see how you can tell what the farmers averaged to get in 
 any zona or throughout New England. 
 
 Oomm. O'EARE. Can you give us any information as to wheth- 
 er there jr^aa been any increase paid to farm help since a year 
 ago last A.pril? .: > 
 
 Mr. PA.TT?iE. The record shows repeated increases in cost 
 of farm labor. 
 
 Oomm;. O'HAHS. Mr. Davis* figure is about |2.50 increase. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Well, Mr. Pavis* statement, as I understand 
 it, is of the prices given now, made up from these question- 
 naires, and he is giving you an estimate of what in his judg- 
 ment was the average price some time ago. But, as long as this 
 line of questioning has developed, I would like to ask the 
 Commission to hear Professor Southwick of the Massachusetts 
 College of Agricvilture at Amherst, who can qualify as an expert 
 on farm accounting, relative to the legitimacy of tnose figures 
 and th.e system under v^hich they are obtained, and he may be 
 able to furnish you vi/ith information you have not received 
 relative to costs from other sources. 
 
c, 
 
 r:OjL:7£.'Ui:..0e' 
 
 'ri\' ,::r-""^Ca ',060.1 ,Qi\-- dC'::\ 
 iiii. . \VCK;i' 0.1 -fifhtO i'ii ^ ■-. 
 
 os^o a 10 1 &o^ £ri : oax ci -svBti LSjjo'h y>ox nctsoS "vd.o. '. 
 
 -ivj no ^l-.o"; :^'- vlifii^'jS s*^eIcoG e.-I.C , jOy ri>6i^n£>q3i3 ^ i: lo'i 
 
 - • oi i^f^.tict feV£rf ©w j-i~jl+ a^;nxr'.t eii:^ ..o-tl j^rfT ♦e'lsw jjov 
 
 'j.0 j30c t;,;: c- ^ - -^ &r{d" HX 3fs.Lv.nI ■'O'/q f-i;,-.-, 10 
 
 wOg ^h(usa 6xtj S£v/ ,i-.L ,; £ gnxgnx-icf lo jroo bcl* tnc.t:JsdiGq;8nj*'i;i- 
 
 ;:x a-o:u uj . v.& s-^t.i-:n£.z. vi-ij c'iiiiw j,iecr ni>o jjo\, v.ors eeR v^'iioj. 
 
 ..);^d,v (>& s.v i;o J: ■i-5M;no'ir'.f rn.fc, n;.: -vig ijc v n.sC .S>iAl^*0 .rsirtoC 
 
 fo;■^.>:^?;••^eJ^^^/ I ncS ,'?'•-« ejw^r?. *y.,.VA^^, .-K ^.:;ieWf .S?'vTA? .~^ 
 
 ;.n..;- x^i.b o:i -^x-ii bl-jrm I ,i)eqoXs;-- ^ 3nxrroi:.t3ec/p 'ID enxi 
 
 - .^-.'.L i-f.Gji.T lo vo;iLV;.i:o-i30l e>,.'d" o:' ^^ ,.'i"^' - ■•: no 
 
 jov .lin c.-f:j.y'i o.t -. _ 
 » JriL■^,.•^'-^ '■'■;>"0 ;i\o-l': qJ-^.oz Oct ■■■ ' ^■■••^' 
 
66 
 
 Professor SOUTB^VICK. I am willing to ansv/er any questions, 
 Mr. Pat tee. I don't know that I am prepared to give testimony 
 that may be desired at this time. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Professor Southwick is qualified by reason of 
 his education and his position with the Massachusetts Agricultu- 
 ral 'College, and I would suggest tliat questions be asked hiia 
 along the same line that you have been pursuing with Mr. Davis. 
 
 Professor B. Q. SOUTHWICK -- sv/orn . 
 
 Q (By Gomm. Bird.) Your full name , Professor? A. B. G. South- 
 wick. 
 
 Q (By Gomm. O'Hare.) Gan you tell us. Professor, what the pre- 
 vailing rate of wages v/as that was paid to farm help in April, 
 1917? A. In April, 1917, I was in Connecticut, and, accord- 
 ing to the best of my recollection, wages varied with the kind 
 I of man a person hired. He might hire a boy or a young fellow 
 for less than vi/OuJLd be given to a full grown man. There would 
 be fluctuations showing a considerable variation, but I should 
 I estimate that somewhere in the vicinity of ^30 a month was paid 
 for 9 £^ood farm hand a.t that time. That would be the best 
 estimate I could make. 
 
 Q My question. Professor, was, the prevailing rate of wages for 
 farm labor. A. Well, that is as good an answer as I can 
 give you. 
 
 Q You vvouldr't consider that a competent answer to the question 
 
 as to the prevailing rate of wages in that community for farm 
 
 labor? I said "farm Jabor" . I thought my question might be 
 
 construed as meaning competent farm labor. A. Wall, ccrapetent 
 
 farm labor $30 a month, with board. That would vary, and you 
 
 would find men paying only $20 a month, and others $55. 
 I 
 
- , :J0?. , C? ,H .A ^''sor!?>fe'xo-i*I ^e^ii&^. Llii't n:.JcY ^v.ti-i^ .fiiiJ-oC -) ';■ 
 
 • }i D X . v 
 
 .. "io ^-.t tftloxv ofi" hi. s'-cedvv-eiHOs iad^ si*- :?i*!X jss 
 
 t ■ 1. « • - t-ii- - ' ■ ' — • - - *■ - 
 
O Y 
 
 Q Can you tell us wiiat it was in April, 1918? A. This past 
 April? I have heard men saying that they had got to pay ■ 
 
 Q Not what you heard. Tell us what you know. A. I aai not 
 hiring men, a,nd am not running any farm. All I know is what 
 I have heard, in regard to what the price of labor is. If you 
 don't want that, all right. 
 
 I 
 
 Q Can you tell us v/hat was paid in August, 1918? A. This past 
 August — well, that is on the same basis, what I heard men 
 say they were actually paying for labor; that they were paying 
 some of them as high as |70 a month and others |60, and on day 
 labor they had to pay anywhere from |3.50 to |4.50 a day, de- 
 pending on the kind of man, when they got him, and the kind of 
 work. Now, in this past summer in Massachusetts,- these prices 
 are for this state, so far as I overheard men talking about 
 
 I these things, ^ .; ■'-' 
 
 Q But of your own knowledge, stating v/hat has been paid, you can- 
 
 I not give us any information? A. I aon' t tliink it is possible 
 
 , for any man to say what the average wage of hired farm help is, 
 
 I 
 
 any more than v/hat the average wage of the man in the city of 
 Boston is. One is as variable as the other and as difficult 
 to get at, and I don't think any gentleman in the room would 
 want to stand up and swear and give testimony as to what the 
 average wage in the city of Boston is today or was last April. 
 Q (By Mr. Pattee.) You heard the Ixne of inquiry pursued by Mr. 
 Commissioner Bird relative to the farmer getting his o\!vn living 
 and thi"-"- getting 10 per cent in addition to what he called his 
 time. What would be your judgment with relation to that matter 
 developed by Mr. Bird? A. Well, to be frank about it, I 
 failed, I think, to some extent to get the relevancy of all 
 that discussion, but it appears to me that t}ie prices put m 
 here — SI and 33 cents an houi', which are substantially the 
 
;3B JKam I- ;.Ci I Vi. 
 
 , . ■< I IIA tm't-ii't \!i& 3riir?fK -^ '^ id.;: ^n-^a jsn-t^lj: 
 
 jjov 11 .a£ 'icd.til lo ecxiq exij ^'aa■<^ c- - n i: j Jb'iJGfiri ©v- 
 
 .j- ;;-.>;-i tl^i t:rijf{,t ^n;iw d-.^rjoi:: 
 
 :c--i?: biner'. 1 .i&ii'^: ,ai:sBci essa eKr^ no 3x iiid- ^ -- js^fguA 
 
 vicv no foisA ^vo?i oifci^.v^ 'j:!- riJ-nos'^ jj 0?| s-c rfsxri br nvsrfj 1o sinos 
 
 Zo &r:J;?f ed.; tr^M 0-03 vi>n& ai::r-: ^t■'|^6i^ii xo bni'A 6.dj no gn.i;bn6c 
 
 , ..gnid* S'-iwiii 
 
 iO vc)-j;c ■■ !-;i ri.^iffi cdi lo e^^-'^ . -;isv^ ei^j c^^ilw atiii^t eTorii ^ffi-it. 
 
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 -.1 % V jnoc^ sci:! nl cxi-^iLOli aep: rne >[n.ri).t i'nrc I hnsi ^is .;^^;r. oJ' 
 
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 •i ^: -.; ,■-;.-: jjS.d:' o: no.: J^ii-Xt'i iij.'.v, .'nsc^^Cuy, t>i^. ' ^ - oiMff .ernij- 
 
 j..,.oc> iC; vonfiVw. ..:.■':!. t;.:^ T'T'; .ij-v; K;.: i:^*.-c; c..^ j;:.-'!..^ i «L;:€.; 
 
68 
 
 sane in August,- are v/i tiiout quastion reasonable charges per 
 hour for dairy production, and whether the figures on these 
 questionnaires a.re absolutely accurate or not nobody knows. 
 Anyone who wishes to talte the trouble can go over these 300 
 returns from q^uestionnaires. I have not looked over them and 
 have had nothing to do with them. But I did assist, at Dr. 
 Gilbert's request, in going over those questionnaires for J"\ily 
 and August, ana it was very evident indeed that it was impossi- 
 ble to make any question on the questionnaire what you might 
 call "fool-proof" , so that everybody would answer it exactly 
 as the man who wrote the question down v/ould want it answered. 
 In other words, it was very evident from some of the question- 
 naires that they had put in boy labor and put in their own 
 labor sometimes, although that was very exceptional, and there 
 was a very wide variation in the range of statement there, which 
 just indicated that it is pretty difficult to get — v/e had at 
 that time around 2000 questionnaires, if I remember right, that 
 we vient over,- to get 2000 men to answer the same question in 
 the same way; that is, to get them to understand the question 
 in the same way, and that is pretty well evidenced, I think, 
 by the military questionnaires and the difficulty people had 
 in filling those out. So, with the fluctuations you get in 
 prices from state to state, you have to look over the question- . 
 naires, I believe, and test the accvjracy in each case, before 
 you can judge really whether the average is reasonably correct. 
 
 Q (By Comm. O'Hare.) I understand. Professor, that you had some- 
 thing to do with that, in connection with this statement? 
 
 A No, sir, not for this October mattex*. I had something to do 
 with the statement for the questionnaire for July and August, 
 I which was sent out by Mr. Boutell. 
 
 Q Was there any great fluctuation in the wages paid to farm labor 
 

 T> ' ■ 
 
 .ii«'£'-'"vi'r;nB j".l :\\.c-" fcXuow n^voi) nox.+ e'.&..jt' eiiv+ e-to'iuv dA'-.' nsia e.iij sjb 
 -, :.:..:. ' : ': ill ouq 'o£'-ii Y Q ■■ii ' ■■ nA^f a6"ii:iJtt 
 
 o.C'^. ^ . ne;uer.:-.js 'lo ^:^rri ■ '<.: no i..'ji.i'j:i.v vi-cr^: x'lbV & . . 
 
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 ^. :Ji t-Jv^ It /o AC'/i or -vv-inn ixo^ « t^ ' ..;!:■*: 1 c 
 
 ■ .. . ;.-■ ... no.:j.b;jV'C'-;. m 
 
 J-«.,v 
 
I 69 
 
 at that time? A. On the questionnaires; yes, sir. 
 
 Q What vfas the average at that time? A. Well, the only figures 
 I have are those presented, I think, to the Commission, and 
 for Massachusetts all I have is the figure per hour for Massa- 
 chusetts at that time, 53 cents per hour for man labor. 
 
 Q How did. you strike thac averags? A. We struck that average 
 by taking tlie replies that men had made on these questionnaires 
 as to what they paid per month v.ithout board; took 26 days to 
 the month at nine hours per day, and remembering that those 
 reports at that time did not include tne question of what the 
 owner's time was worth. Practically all the men v/ho reported 
 on the questionnaires were giving figures of what tney paid for 
 hired labor without board by the month. 
 
 Q ' (By Mr. Pattee.) The average v/as 33 cents an hour? A. Yes, 
 for Massachusetts, and here in October it is 31 cents, I think, 
 and I might say that I believe personally that you could find 
 that difference at any time. A year ago, if you had sent out 
 such questionnaires, you ?/oi;J.d have got the same difference, 
 because you wovildn't get the sarno people to report. Last year 
 some people were haying in August and July, «/ere busy and were 
 I anxious to get help, and you vrould get that variation eaaly in 
 any year, of two cents per nour. I notice in looking over the 
 Chamber of Commerce survey, the figures for Massachusetts, the 
 figure for December, 1917, supposed to be brought up to date 
 at that time, was 28.9 cents, against this October figure of 
 31 cents, approaching 3 cents higher. 
 
 Q (By Comm. O'Hare.) Do I understand from the statement you have 
 just made that you charge the labor that was employed on haying 
 or other farm work up to the production of milk? A, No, sir, 
 but in the questionnaire the question is askea right here as 
 to the niii'iber of hands employed per month with board and v/ithout 
 
-ac. siiLl Tcol: iij . , - Xi.i-3 aJ .to auric 4.<..a.^J:''i 'lo': 
 
 a.,^'i.c.G.'-(fiox jseup e36ri.:r no £'.fj«i5-i .b£rf new .tsiii Gs.tlqsT orit ^nx-'i.e 
 
 iDe^ioqs-i or[\7 riivi^ eri? L1& vXIscx;t-oii'tS ..;iJ-icv sbw e:H.i:* Q^tenvr.- 
 'i:'": i":?;.'o -?: , ., _ r/^r p-Liivl:^ ©<i5vv aotxi^Knoi^-siej-ft. e.d.t ro 
 
 ^■^tnJ::io T ,n:^rf-:, I^, 3x :t-i -xtorrViO- ^^.t r r^,r; ti -, .^ n.^-^ea .Kg;? ■ - i.;, -vol 
 
 uov t^.p?/ -^'rii rro^ 
 
 S ._' .1 X'.. v I 
 
 &^ 
 
 -•i-... bisxi \i:^iJo oi^>v .'^..CuO bn-a j3'J3-- :tlY^ii e'le-w elqoea 
 
 KJ 
 
"board. This is for July and August. It dossn't say wiietner 
 they 'fiere employed on haying or cleaning house. That is the 
 question that was asked, and that is all we had to tabulate. 
 
 Q And it is charged to cost of miUs:? A. We took the hour rate 
 from that statement, furnished at the time, and tabulated. 
 
 Q And claarged into the cost of producing milk? A. We inserted 
 it in the figures, for purpose of comparison, being made pri- 
 marily on the Chaitiber of Commerce survey. 
 
 Q (By Mr. Pattee.) That is, you charged the cost of labor in 
 connection with milk at the rate that labor earned during the 
 whole day? A. Yes, sir. That is what it amounts to. 
 
 Q Charged at that same rate the number of hoi^rs spent on making 
 milk. A. That was the effort made, there. In order to get 
 at what it costs a man while he spends his time px-oducing milk 
 ' you have to take what his labor has cost him for the entire 
 year, month or day, what ever unit you are using it, and get 
 the rate per hour from that, and, no matter what system a man 
 may take for determining that — hour, day, month or year,- 
 you cannot have it absolutely letter perfect. 
 
 Q {By Gomm. O'Hare.) How much did you charge for production of 
 milk on that particular questionnaire you have there nov»-. 
 Professor? A. That is, for Jioly and August? 
 
 Q Yes. A. How much in Massachusetts? .. •,,.«-9 
 
 Q Well, you have the questionnaire there. A. This one I have 
 here is the questionnaire sent out for July and August. 
 
 Q V/ell, in the case of the particular farmer whose statement you 
 
 have before you, how much? A. This that I have before me is 
 
 just a blank one, a copy I had in ray file. 
 
 I Mr. PATTEE. I would call to the attention of Commissioner 
 
 to 
 Bird^^ as long as he developed this line of inquiry ,/the fact 
 
 that the rate per hour to which his line of reasoning would 
 
. .^ ;■..'.:■.„ . J - .aiatJ'l I i iiiH'ixiaJ xii a j xus- 
 
 -.;.-£q ©b^TO 2,n.tea ^nca.f.'iir'CTiyfOo lo s.aoq-wq 'icl ^-ae'ii/gx'i &d* r<i: ■:• i 
 
 .Y-v"i.u3 &o*i£nsxioO "io lecfoiBxiC eii^t no Yii-iara 
 
 e,:ut gntxafc rjerfSJiS •lod.sl *Bfi;t ej.c.-i ©fl.:t .1.0 xlxn rli-t'A- nciiosniioo 
 
 .cj- a-tftu JA'ifi cfx &Bd'i-^ 5X .ti;!!? .-iXii <GfcY .A ?•■.:££/ sXoriw 
 
 ju-cxX-S!:!! 00 .-'nscis s'luo. . - .xjh eriJ e-tsi ©nijBs ;tBrid- .te fce3'i4EriC 
 
 e-r.tjae ecit -lo'^ aiid .tscc aaii -xodsX 3xr{ *£:iUi e>:j^-.j oj ev. 
 o?^r^ hn-:-- ^ "5" r -::';:-?r . -v +in:-- -jrve '••,::rr.': tV.:.ij 10 iid'nom ,i;c&y 
 
 -,'ijc-fe^i to .cijiioiu ^x^i.i: ^ixio.ci — i •^iH 3nxa.tiT!'iede£) to"! -r.-f^b;? vjyp 
 ,i: ;-Xr:^!;rj;on'j£ ;^ 1, nn^ic uoy 
 
 jU'Oii eie-fij -ov-Ct\ iJOY^ 9^.i::3nno.!:;f3fc>j.r' •SJaX;;oxJ'i£H ,tiA,-f.j no xXis 
 
 .■wftJy ■,_.;.iJu iJ_ ^ "... J- ■[-■.' !. «/V - i J<. c:^;- J.^-• i ^ 
 
 ? a -i' .t f ■ a - r flu 'A.A E j!iM nx ..I c ;.; ill '>/ .a 9 /i . s e Y ,9 
 
 Xo no!:!""' _..^^.. I ..li- ■■ ,'.... 
 
71 
 
 object to adding 10 per cent for managerial ability was, in 
 these figures submitted at this hearing, 33 cents an hour from 
 Maine, 33 cents for Vermont, 31 cents for Massachusetts, 33 
 cents again for New Hampshire and for Connecticut, and, if I 
 followed the questions correctly, the line of reasoning vrould 
 develop an objection to adding 10 per cent to that for the 
 value of the man's labor in making milk. 
 
 Comm. BIRD. In the first place, you misunderstood me. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. These figures are the figures reported for 
 the Commission. 
 
 Comm. BIPD. You misunderstood the deductions I drev/; and, 
 in the second place, I did not object, did not develop a line 
 of reasoning against it, because I did not discuss the equity 
 of it, one way or the other. I simply wanted to know if that 
 is what had been done. If it had oeen, the reasoning I de- 
 duced from it wasthat the rate of wages to the owner was not 
 set on the same basis as was originally started in the Chamber 
 of Commerce survey, which was the day's wage that the farmer 
 wovild pay tor labor plus 10 per cent for managerial ability, 
 but that he had been paid an additional wage, on his own state- 
 ment, and, in addition to that, had received a managerial re- 
 turn. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. I beg to submit that these are the wages on 
 which these cost figures are based, 33 cents an hour in prac- 
 tically in all thestates here, and I leave it to the good 
 judgment of the Commission whether a man is entitled to a higher 
 percentage than that? In any event, those are the figures. 
 
 Comm. BIRD. That is not the point. You have missed the 
 point. i'rom the statement submitted here by Mr. Davis, which 
 has oeen filed, it appears that the average wage paid tc farm 
 labor, we will say, is ^4r5, plus $30, making an average wage 
 
1 li ^fcfl■^ ^ci-uoxd oennoD 'x- ... s eiXilaqaaH ivt:. -i-, ; yjin.:- 
 
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(A 
 
 of 1 75, whereas the manager of the farm receives |99, in addi- 
 tion to which he receives a certain amoimt of living from his 
 farm, say |20, giving him a return of |120, as against |75, 
 the prevailing wage, and in addition to that he receives 10 
 per cent for managerial ability. My point was that according 
 to the original survey made, that amount would have been charg- 
 ed in at ^75, if that was the prevailing rate for labor, and 
 that ho would have received 10 per cent beyond that for manager- 
 ial ability. 
 
 Mr. PATTES. I confess that I cannot quite follow the 
 Commissioner. It is probably my fault. But tne questionnaires 
 will be filed themselves, and the Commi scion can pass on the 
 validity of the evidence itself, 
 
 Comm. BI5D. I am not disputing the thin^, questioning 
 whether it is right or wrong, tut am simply trying to bring 
 out the facts in connoction with the figures that Mr. Davis 
 hap reached, that a change has been made in the basis on which 
 the 10 per cent was originally accorded to the farm?r for 
 managerial ability. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Whether or not it has been made, I simply 
 call attention to the fact that it results in an increase in 
 the amount entering into the price of labor. 
 
 Comm. BIxlD. You mean the average wage, including himself? 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. Including himself. I would now ask the 
 Commission to hear Mr. Lull, agent for some years in connection 
 with typical dairy farm work in Massachusetts, v^rho knows what 
 farmers pay for help and can ansvi^er some of the questions ask- 
 ed by Mr. Commissioner O'Hare. 
 
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 tiilJ 10 
 
 
f o 
 
 Q 
 
 ROBERT D. LULL -- Gworn. 
 
 (By Mr. Pattee.) What is your full name and addrsss? 
 
 A Robert D. Lull, 393 Main Street, Room 412, Sawyer Building, 
 Worcester. 
 
 Q 1 Where did you formerly live? A. In Hardwiok, Mass. 
 
 Q Until when? A. The first of November. 
 
 Q Hov/ long did you live in Hardv/ick? A. Since March, 1914. 
 
 Q What was your business in Hardwick? A. My work in Hardwick 
 was somewhat in the line of county agent work, only a little 
 more in detail. It was in connection with the adminif trgtion 
 of the Page ii'und in Hardwick, for the benefit of horticulture 
 and agriculture, and my work was along educational and business 
 lines in connection with the farmers of Hardwick. . - 
 
 Q Are you a graduate of any college, and if so, what? A. THe 
 Massachusetts Agricultural College. 
 
 Q Can you answer the questions asked by Commissioner O'Kare and 
 some others, as to prices made foi- farm labor? A. I can only 
 ansv/er so far as my commimity is concerned. 
 
 Q Go ahead and answer them. A. If I recall the questions -- 
 perhaps Mr. O'Hare had better put the questions. 
 
 Q (By Comm. 0*Hare.) Just whom do you represent here? A. The 
 New England Milk Producers Association. 
 
 Q An officer of the Association? A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q Can you give us tl'ie price paid, the average price paid for 
 farm labor April 1st, 1917? A. April 1st, 1917, the price 
 paid for what we call a good quality farm laborer on farms in 
 Hardwick was practically |35 a month with board, and occasional- 
 ly a little more,- between |30 and |40. 
 
 Q Can you give me the price on April 1st, 1918? A. On April 
 1st, 1918, men who were making contracts with their help for 
 
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74: 
 
 another season were paying from $40 to $50, practically. You 
 
 would, find :iuite a discrepancy in that, even as far as the to\vn 
 
 of Hardv/ick goes. I have been looking over the questionnaires, 
 
 and one reports paying $50 a month with board, and another $30 
 
 a month with board. That is hardly a fair average at all of 
 
 the tovm of Hardwick. I know these two men making returns on 
 
 the questionnaires and happen to know the tv/o men reported on. 
 
 One was an American fellow, I should say. He wasn't a Polish 
 
 fellow. We have Polish help in Hardwick. One was an American 
 
 fellov/, a bright, active young roan, getting $50 a month, and 
 
 dru^^ik 
 the $30 fellov/ was a Polish fellow, /about a third of the time. 
 
 So you see you don't really get the average res'olt there in 
 
 the questionnaires from that tov/n. I had occasion to have 
 
 fellows swear before me in regard to what they were getting, as 
 
 I help iiiake out questionnaires for a great many of the farm 
 
 help of the town, as a member of the local advisory board, and 
 
 the amount ran around $45 to $50. I know that one farmer was 
 
 paying a Polish man as high as $65. 
 
 Q How does that compare with the present wage? A. Wiiy, you 
 
 asked me in regara to April 1st, 1918. These wages are wages 
 
 the men have been getting right through the season. I think 
 
 they are running just about the 3a,me now. I don't think those 
 
 I men have changed. . -■ 
 
 Q Ho?/ long has it been since there has been any increase? 
 
 A Well, in that to\ivn most of those fellows make contracts with 
 
 their men beginning along in the spring, as a rule, and the 
 
 increase came, as far as that tov/n was concerned, about last 
 
 March, April, along there, v/hen they were making the contracts 
 
 for the season. 
 
 Q Tell me what the increase was. A. Well, yoixr first question 
 
 was, what the price of labor was for April, 1917, v^asn't it? 
 
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That vi/as the first question you asked? 
 Q Yes. A . And I stated, between |30 and $40, $35 and |40; 
 
 ' April 1st, 1918, |45 to $50 for a good man. 
 Q And no increase since then? A. I don't think so, so far as 
 
 that cominunity is concerned. 
 Q Can you give us the price for milk paid by the dealer to the 
 
 farmer last April? A, I don't knov/ as I could recall the 
 
 figures. 
 Q Can you give us the figures on the increase to the farmer since 
 
 last April? A. No, I couldn't. I haven't those figures in 
 
 nind. 
 Q As I understand it, you are appearing hare, giving expert 
 
 testimony? A. I am simply giving testimony so far as our 
 
 commxinity is concerned. ■• • . 
 Q Vi/ould you say from your knowledge that the farmer is Justified 
 ' in putting tne increased price for laoor. on the price of milk? 
 A I have answered your question simply so far as monthxy labor 
 
 goes. Now, there would be another question come in there, in 
 
 regard to the price of day labor. . , . 
 
 the 
 Q You have followed , milk business pretty closely? A. More or 
 
 less. -■■ A ,.;:■• 
 
 Q I judge from your opening statement that you were pretty closa 
 
 to the fanner and had followed the m^.r'k.et figures? A, Pretty 
 close to him. I haven't had much work on tiie milk business 
 
 since last January. ., .,^, 
 
 Q How is it you are so familiar with labor conditions? A. I 
 have been in the commimity and have heard farmers talk in re- 
 gard to wnat they paid to the men. 
 
 Q Isn't it a fact that the farmers talk as much about the price 
 of milk as they do about the price of labor? A. Yes, but 
 there are so many fractions of cents that come into the price 
 
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/o 
 
 of millc that I wouldn't want to make a statement as to tiie 
 fractions for April. The prices change so much that I couldn't 
 I tell, offhand. 
 
 Q You mean to say that you are associated with a group of farmers 
 and that they do not discuss the prices of milk together? 
 
 A Oh, yes, they discuso the prices, Mr. O'Hare. I am not trying 
 to hedge. But I don't recall just the fractions. 
 
 Q You took the stand, as I understood, as a gentleman familiar 
 ' with the milk business, and I am just trying to find out, if I 
 can, how familio-r" you are with these technical questions. 
 
 A I dou't know as I just get what you want, now. 
 
 Q I want to find out your opinion as to vi/hether, with no increased 
 cost of labor, dealers are justified in asking for an increased 
 price of milk on account of increased price of labor between 
 last April and the present time? A. Mr. O'Hare, there are 
 several tnings entering into it. I have simply spoken of tne 
 farm help contracted for from year to y-^ar. The day nelp I 
 haven't spoken of, at all, but the day help is quite an item 
 on a great many farms. That is, there are seasons when they 
 have to hire a great many extra men. The price for day labor 
 I has in a great measure tended to go up, the price for labor to 
 bring in and harvest their crops at this season. 
 
 Q And you think the farmer is justified in charging for the help 
 required in harvesting the crops, charging it up to the cost 
 of milk? A. Only in so far as it affects the high cost of 
 that crop. If yo-ar silage costs you more in 1918 than it did 
 in 1917, that is an increased cost in milk production. 
 
 Q I Can you give us any idea what that would amount to? A. I 
 couldn't per ton of silage. 
 
 Q , Per ton of hay? A. No, sir. 
 Comm. O'KAKE. That is all. 
 
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I 77 
 
 Q (By Mr. Pattee.) Mr. Lull, in Kardwick is or is not mora or 
 less day labor employed in the production of milk? A. Why, 
 thera is a great deal of day labor employed. Most of the farm- 
 ers liave regular hands, but there is a great deal of day labor 
 employed when they are harvesting, in addition to tlie regular 
 man. This additional cost for day labor affects the cost of 
 milk production, because it affects the cost of farm materials 
 and everything . 
 
 Q (By Comm. Murdock.) The cost of what is fed to the herds? 
 
 A Yes, sir. 
 
 Q (3y Oomm. Brigham. ) Is there plenty of fami help at |40 to 
 $50 a month? A. Not good farm help. 
 
 Q The farmers are snort of help at that price? A. Yes, sir. 
 Many farmers gave up trying to hire help, because the :iuality 
 of the help was such that they didnH know from month to month 
 whether tliey would have a man or not. 
 
 Q , Hov/ do the day wages compare tius year with the day wages of 
 a year ago? A. I think the day wages a year ago were fromi $3 
 to $5.50, about |o, whereas this year the a.mount has been 50 
 cents an hour for an 8-hoar day. 
 
 Q (By Comm. O'Hare.) A year ago last April how many farmers 
 were employing farm help? A. In Hardwick? 
 
 Q Yes. A. Why, I naven*t the figures in mind, but probably 
 75 to 80 per cent of the farmers. 
 
 Q How many employ farm help now? A. Wliy, when you get down 
 to guessing on percentages it would be rather hard to say. 
 I think you v/ould find several men who did employ a year ago 
 who do not employ now. • » . - 
 
 Q rifty per cent? A. Possibly. You mean fifty per cent de- 
 j crease, or fifty per cent of the total? 
 
 Q i'ifty per cent of the total? A. I shouldn't think that. 
 
A 
 
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 .a-jfefu-i-Ql &i-l^ lo c?£!oc 'ieq OS c:f ^V 
 .,v,c:^ iBi ijox nerlM ^xrl^fi ♦A ?worf qleil m&l Y<^'-Lqn:« vx?£m =. . . y 
 
 c^.Q -iije^i a voiqme Lx£) oxi\- K»;i; Lt-'ievc^rr fcnil .; ^ ::ir;iiict' J. 
 
 ^l.:! nx::.ffi x?oY .vlulcisc" .A ?:tnfvO -f&c yJlx^ ^ 
 
 
quite. 
 
 Q Porty? A. Why, possibly tiiat. That is simply an estimate. 
 
 Q (Mr. Pattee.) You were asked by Mr. O'Hare whether you thought 
 the increased cost of labor since April would justify an in- 
 creased price of milk. In that connection, would you say that 
 if milk was selling at a loss in April your farmers would be 
 satisfied to continue to sell at a loss now, if labor iiad not 
 gone up? A. No, sir. 
 
 Q In other words, they would be justified in asking for more money 
 for their milk even if the price of labor had not gone up, if 
 they had been selling at a loss, would they not? A. Very 
 true. 
 
 Q (By Comm. 0*Hare. ) Do I vmderstand, Mr. Lull, by that state- 
 ment, you mean to intimate that the farmers were selling at a 
 loss last April? A. I think in some cases they were, 'dr, 
 O'Kare. . , . - _. - , 
 
 Q What cases? A. In cases where the nien viere depending on the 
 hired help to a great extent they were selling at a loss. 
 
 Q Do you know of any farmer personally who was selling at a loss? 
 Mr. PATTEE. Yes. 
 Mr. LULL. Y-3S, I think I do. 
 
 Comm. O'HArffl. I thought I was asking Mr. Lull questions, 
 but an answer came from another section of the room. I don't 
 desire this witness to be prompted. 
 
 Comm. BIIID. (In the chair.) V/ill the witness answer. 
 Mr. LULL. Mr. 0*Hare asked me if I knew any farmer per- 
 sonally who was absolutely selling at a loss. It ?/ould be rather 
 hard to make a statement exactly as to whethar I knsw that that 
 was so or not. I do know, however, for a fact that there are 
 farmers depending on hired laborers, making milk as a business, - 
 
 Q (3y Gomm. O'Hare.) That is not the question. Do you know of 
 
■ :i»t£K;i^se nis vlcraxs ex j£iil' .o'Biij ^fioxEaoq i'^^fiW .A '•.'v.- , ^ 
 
 -cix n^. Y.lxJaiJ't aiif-'ow I.t':qA sonxp. 'TOd-c-;! lo .+ 500 iiessetfou.. ^i-. v 
 
 BCf I)Ii;Qw s'j.ofincjB'i f^'ov IX'tqA ni &60I b j.c gniiXes asvv j-ixm 'ii 
 cfon jb&ii -^oo'^i 'it twon bsoI s .ti? IXos o:' •-•jnx.tnoo Ovt fesllexoee 
 
 .■tla <oIT. .A ?ciii sno§ 
 
 v&ncK e-xOiii 10I a^ixraSij ni: J^e.c liJs.uf, ec^ ijl-jow ^eriJ ^igiJ-^o-vv 'jiexld-o nl i p 
 1 tuu sno-i Jon i/i;xl lod&l xc tcx'i.. -- -• ^-x nevs :llist-i -iiod^t lo'i 
 V^'i&V «A ^dofi xQii& .cIi,fOw- ^caoj. s Si^. ^nxIXea need i.;.:: vexid' 
 
 »'iivl ,s'ievv -peris' ae&i;o v-aoa ni ^inxrij i ^ A. ^'Xx'jc.A ctE£.X sboX 
 
 'c;n.t no gnxJDnpqs.o -^-iew nc-ru erl; i;'"&r{»v eeajsO al .A ?eb8*5C J-iiiiW ' c 
 »ccoX ^ •' j^ ^niXXta c-xew ^exi* jn&ixe :;£s'ig £ ocf cS.-yd betid 
 
 »8oY » iU ii. J. T A'l .'sM 
 
 .o£. I ijxxrft 1 ,^;oY ./LIUX ,-xM 
 
 tarxoxuneirp XXxjJ'.iX gnx/Isja b/:;;'' I jiigxroxi^ I »S>^Aii'0 .{waoO 
 
 .ic-wanx, :;5en;:J:v7 exit XXxW ( ."ixerlo eilj- nl) .CIirTXS *i!ixs;o0 
 •scxiXi:;^: bo X.C..."0;v ii .SGcX i^ v £ giiXXXec '-Xc: ji/XcacJi;. aiiw Oiiw ^XX/jnor.; 
 
 -j: .-r!i:3;;cf is s£ xXiiJ; ^.nxX^xi; jC.^'iOG£,X i-v-i-tii no tjr<.Xi:ntu3.b s-ieuiiB'i 
 
79 
 
 any farmer in your community who was selling milk at a loss 
 last April? A. I can answer in this way, that there were 
 farmers making milk who were not able to pay their grain bills. 
 
 Q How do you know that? A. Because I handled their grain money. 
 We handled the cooperative producing organization there, and 
 these farmers paid money to me as manager of the corporation 
 organization. 
 
 Q Who were the farmers? A. You v/ant me to make statements 
 here under oath in regard to the f .-armers of Hardwick who were 
 unable to pay their bills? 
 
 Q Ho, I have simply asked you the question whethei' you knew of 
 any fa,rraars there who sold milk at a loss last April? 
 
 A And I have told you that I have to fall back on that for my 
 information. 
 
 Q Because a farmer did not pay his bills it shows to your mind 
 that he wasn't making money? A. Well, if he couldn't pay 
 his bills it shows that he was not making money. 
 
 Q Can you tell the Commission how you know he was producing milk 
 belovr cost? A. Why, he had his other expenses, as far as his 
 Xiving was concerned, and if he could not pay his bills I would 
 have to draw the conclusion that he was making milk below cost 
 or not getting his money back as a business proposition. 
 
 Q But you don't really know whether he was selling millc below cost 
 
 I 
 or not? A. Not exactly; no, sir. 
 
 Mr. OLARK. If I may make a statement, not from hearsay, 
 but from my own experience, I was employing last year, 1917, 
 men whom I hired for §30 a month, and |35 and $40, and their 
 house, according to the men, giving them two quarts of milk 
 a day, and all the fuel they wanted, which they had to cut them- 
 selves, and what land they wanted for a garden. This year I 
 
■:-■ fterc lol Y£ij ^ *^4^ 5;niY-sci nse^^ v /^ o-..-..^-v_ •. 
 
 *.. .. . iiv.vAi- ,3n.cl;oI Jjnij bisbcf me.f{.t jjnxvia ^a^ -ts ax >[-sow 
 
 ;.r:.. tM^:;: i; i'l t,s n&vs ^-XfiQ-v; aJcrvT . :• -; r^-; . Y 
 
 nr'-v:-j •\tri.t swoa'a il .nsai nesob £ .tool ev&ii I ,;5ftiS;ii>3-I '' ■ - "' 
 
 -:.xb e- r <3rfi:3i)oJ. br . ■ <Y-£-^ -S x^ ,eot-tq Juxii ■.:-. 
 
 j'naeo^ c"! .eoxiq d-js-ij- - ..Xxw yeriT ,!if;.-*-irT- 
 
 i^Ox? cf-sfi-.v 10 (t.Si"rr 5 oe.u jjoy .Llevv wCii , . -''^ so^e'r-, ■_.. i.. ..■ ^....: ^:-... •.. 
 
 io1 'iuo-i r: ' . j3n.t;riO:: i. .-::* rrx .^goIo'o evil ;ta I'toqst 
 
 • vsfco.r 8i' .-{d-ic no.£.txfcncc er'r sx J-£:I1:- *uo'{ ov.ecl .lIxv 
 
 w 
 
 gnxcy.boiq \i6noi^t 3nxsoi aB b-xo ::£':< no ax ■ ^ 3X oraY 
 
 ..^■ffo^ rtsjx:?' . ... ...- - .- 
 
 *nox.5 8XrsaioC ui:x t:o^ ^nGr;e"ii^ci £ £/tJjffi o:j- 3~[xX fcl-^cvi- I 
 yvexi verf^ ^t^,'/ r^is^s er':-:"ncc C' n-£t;or,i:.c c/cn .Elxr.- noi: ^ 3 i-rtL-rrrO ei/'^ 
 
 nx vBJs IXxv/ fc.L-sq .tnos'^'t-q edj- fcn.'i ^noxa.stiTT.ioO &i'{;t '.ri'jc 
 
 . o^:-' :/■'■', ^■:-:. p.'z rjnx*^- '" . en^X" :-ii^[' liinj r^cvi'is 
 
Ut* Bichmrd Pat t da <53 
 
 r?3C.:>ffit ?r 31. ,3.938. 
 St « tarn-ants by 
 
 ^r, Wiii^inaid ilistsck SOI 
 
 A«je<mtit€i?5t Hawkins Sil 
 
 gXHJjRlTS 
 
 (i) AT--fir>^g.3 00:«t of proiluv'ing a quaj-t of silk l.y 
 
 St»t3 (It5?r Suglan^), ti^cjst:??/ ir^l?, tJ\m^3, X^iO , rmafv^y 
 
 for ^vtrni, 191?, A?jtgy'''t-j 1*^^^^ Oct£>l:,jy aii- Iov^mfc>r^ IS2S J 
 
 (t*.) SiMmmrj 9h3'.at of Aat^ ft-<:8n mill: prouucsiafa prun-mtj-i 
 
 affidavit, Hov^oist^^y, 2*?]^, for l^iBS, K^w H^mpafeira, ?.jr- 
 
 ifsoiit, MasBafhuajtti?, CoKn-^oti^iut, Hbod> It.as.tK? end Haw 
 
 York; (3) Co^iit of mi lit protection in ?i!ii.9SBe&.u«-itt3 for 
 lo'«'-/mt3», ;?^1* ; (4^ Coat os" «llk p?o-1wotio-n In Uiin^ for 
 
 Hd'^ 3iHl:\5r, li?B ; (5) OosJt of sJlk --roduction Sn ll^-^ E.!;?un- 
 shlra for Hovrmt- jy, ir-B } (6) Co^tit ©f gU!" pToduotion in 
 ?3rt»ont for !lfjT>mV??. i9B j {"?) Oo^t o-' s-ilk ■fTOctuction 
 in <lQ,nn>cticiit for fov '" i% 103S ; (S ) Fiv"«f-lin<» otJS"=ff..Kry 
 of coat o? f'iilk, t-*^ ?1 . jna damictlon^ sru^ coat p.^r 
 
 buri-lrM <?"3ig?:}t-aiii« T>-3r ^rwart f*o»V;. Ponton - -* •-. r.94 
 
0\ Hi 'i&iiVi.i. 1 V-^- 
 
 ijcx.-'inoq-TOc srl^ lo -i-gj,-: j£. sjk ct xenom fci^q eieursiil er.eri.t 
 
 . ri o ± .t£ £u i niJ-jiT 
 
 ^elli6 'n.i- 'i oi elcj^ruj 
 
 XGi "fOl ^•.ya;^ no ?Ioi>y il^^i G.:' ^ I j-*;;-*.:; jjo-^ i)Xc.r sr.v.>:-: I Jin.: 
 
 JS^:"■ ■'■:rc::i:oio zsm t-n wMj^i ul/\. noiaB.crf^roO srf;:t lie;? no^ n.£L 
 
 ■.' I RixicF iifl '^£q j-or; blj,?oo -^li 'ii f,-ns ^osnieonoo a^t? --^iixvtj. 
 
 i^L: v;rl&d :.LLj:m r^i-xXIta saw er' ■■ ;: sen ' yo^ 
 
 .1X2 ^on : i^I^OK'-rc ■* oT? .A S*jon 'so 
 
 ,':..:_; -5 serf ffitOT:'! i or; ^..■nf^cvtc^sJc & s>u'fa \£i- .T^filA^LO .-rH^ 
 
 , : 1. ,"i5i-{ *a;:X nnit^>>Xmns &xr/v I ^e;;nei.'Uc^xt! avvo v^ sicil jud 
 uiM;:i Ln^^ (04--? iu...: c£|: baa <:i?nGi: ^. Oo'*. "iol -c'iK I :-,9r:i 
 
ow 
 
 have been paying ^50 and |60 a jnonth, v/hich I am paying today, 
 and they can have their house and two quarts of milk, can have 
 their fuel, which they have to cut, and what land the want for 
 a garden. This siammer I have been paying $4 a day for men to 
 work in my fields, giving them board and loding, where last 
 year they had .|?..50 and $3. This year, even at |4 a day, and 
 board and lodging, I have lost a dozen men. It shows that even 
 at that price, $4 a day, with board and lodging, they are dis- 
 contented. They will leave you at that price. It doesn't 
 make any difference today how well you use a raa^n or what you 
 do for him or what you pay him, he will leave you. My men 
 report at five o'clock in the morning, have half an hour for 
 breakfast, and an hour at noon, and quit at six o'clock at 
 night, and get $4 a day and board and lodging, and then they 
 will leave you. That is the condition with us today. 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. I would like to call the attention of the 
 Commission to the testimony of Mr. Moses Page of jiardwick, 
 who is a farmer, and who is on record as losing money producing 
 milk in that towTi. 
 
 Chairman BIHD. Any further questions. (llo i-esponss.) 
 
 I would like to make a statement for the Commission. 
 The Comm.ission v/ill now adjourn to convene again when they have 
 the costs from the dealers under the accounting system as pre- 
 scribed by the Commission, and the present price will stay in 
 effect until that time. The meeting is adjourned. 
 
 (Adjourned, subject to the call of the Chairman, at 4.32 
 o'clock P.M.)' 
 
OS ne-ftr 10 1 ^£1 -Y^ need ev£,ri i if .nsi*'::. 
 
 J:r: .. t'C-sfe £ ^^ J.S nf".--> (-'^ev eiuT .6- jcnji uc.:i.<, jj'... \£.-i,J i-s&Y 
 
 *^ '"' f "'71' I". ' " rv T .— ' • i • :>" ■* '•■.r,. •■-.*' Ci^,*r'V 1' 14 •^T^'iOro"' 
 
 sv^ii vsd-if nf;^;.v ni ^3;; or:f:vnoc ot n-t^roQJ:^ ivcn llic^' 
 
 :■:. --jiss LS.x.cr ecxiq frnc^'^'-iv er'j fca^:. , ■-.:— insioO eil^ ':cf bsci-ics 
 
 '■.'^.:^ ?j^ (ri.!C,::'rx:.iiO erij- 1o Use sdi o.j r^cet'^'^'s tt^en-ii/oj;,.:.;*) 
 
Stat.)ra.>nts ly Page 
 
 llr. Picha^a Pattys i53 
 
 My, C. Oliv'jr Walll^j^ton 1.51 
 
 Mr. 1?0Fln8l<i A»tack SOI 
 
 (i) .A'«r3r>ag3 00:55 1 of pro^jolng a qimi't of 'a ilk ty 
 Stata (Io?r Sn^land), B^cmt ^r, 1017, Jim^s, 1*^13, aurr^y 
 for ,y\jnj, 19^, 4?AgU'^t., ^-^^ Detol:.^^ a:ii-- |lo^.^?KE-;r^ l^B i 
 (?') SiSNTr^ayy sha^^t of ;?,a.t# fror?r silk proiim-^ra py3e.>nt'j5d 
 BffMmlt^ Tlmmt-^t, }9Mi for l*i?s;s, iav? Um^ifshiro, ?^r~ 
 
 Ycrk| (3) C&fA of rail' pro:-.tmJtioK in Maa@aelmtt3tts for 
 lor->«itar, 191*; (41 Coat «f mi Ik pftJdtiet io-n in Mv^i«^ for 
 HoiP3mt-5T4 K:'^ i (5) Cost of milk T'WO(m<2tion in !J:3-" IliSir*- 
 shtra for Ho'V^m'c-iTi l^B j (6) Ottnt ^f sU!" prodtiction in 
 ^^yffiont for ioT>sife^?yf 19B i (?) Ooat o-' B\iik -to Auction 
 in nonn-3<!tieu* ^or foV'3ff*=;fr, l^B ; (8) Fiv-^s-lina ji«jr^:^iyy 
 or co0t of rilk, t."-:3lft^- 3ona damjctionj s?xd coat p.^t 
 h%m^''T^'i v^sigrit artil p-iv mitkTt f*o«V.. Fontou - * ■-. r*94 
 
81 
 
 Bo£5m 427, State Ko-use, Boston, 
 
 Monday* December S3, 1913. 
 
 Hearing bsfora jfedsral Milk OonsnisRion in rs milk price« 
 
 beginning January 1, 1919. 
 
 Present r Oosimiscisnerg ilOKBiS, SA^TsB, O'HAPj; a.rid JOH0AS. 
 ileesre. SBATlP, CUSICK, OLAEK and PATTHS, were also pressnt, 
 
 Somsj. MCFRIS, in calling the hearing to ord^r at 11.25 
 a.su, spoke as follovs^s: .: .^;^ j 
 
 Centlsffi'sn, It appears fi^cm a sonf ert-nce ?/lth I'rr ?a.tt^s 
 and twx) of ths nen represontins soma of the l-s,rger daalers that 
 I csrt-ain figures of exp^srts, ani so fortJi, which, w«re ^a-^^sctad 
 to b:s rea:ly at this tiaj, '*.^ili nc-t he ri-adfj, it is "9 vi^y dasir- 
 atle on tiie part of the Ccrjimla^ion that those tis^rss bd' in 
 3hap3t fer cxrxjful sjxsusinatlon of thd Oomsiitssion ^rior to fixing 
 th« pfioee for threes months,- Jan^^ary, If^bruary ^nd. March, if 
 the locmission ahovild deci.is to fix tiie pric a .for that length 
 of time. Thorefors the hearing, so far as thu figurys, and 
 probably the price fixing Tor January, will be cantinu&d to 
 Monday, D^jcesaher 30, at tifo Q*clocie in t5i« afternoon. 
 
 Th«ro arc sorn^ othsr .'OE'-ttorc that psrhai?s mi^'ht properly 
 t)0 Alccuessd, if yo\i dosire any discusoion on th&a, at this 
 tiffio. I ?.a5 not present cit the last pricrf fi>-ing psj'iod, but 
 I tm^- c?rrt t>od from the racord that the prices of railk for tii«s 
 aonth of December ^ae to be tha naaie a*? for th'=^ sionth of Novti-ni- 
 bar, 'yhloh, of cou:-5«, inoludwG tha handitus of tii^ surplus the 
 g.-^ae as it wnsh'indlod in l^ovL^mbar-. I aaaun-j that th7.t is so. 
 
■ti iu 
 
 "«i'.. 
 
 'u. 
 
82 
 
 but if anyone wants to t>e heard on that luestion «e wo^d be 
 glad to ho-ir from tham now. 
 
 Mr, CUSIOK. W« a^cidadiy object to that. I ^iii try and 
 state how I think the surplus waa handled in November. I will 
 r-^ad from the raport: 
 
 •The Producers, under the siirpliis plan as now in 
 force shall receive for all of their miHs. 9-3/4 counts 
 per luart f .o.b. Bonton, less the zone freight, plus 
 the war tax and th3 can and country charges asagrviod 
 upon, with the preraium for butt-sr fat of four o-^nts 
 per point in excess of 3.5 per cent., if wny, or the 
 rsduction for butter fat of four cents per point be- 
 low 3.5 p^r cent. There shall be no reduction from 
 the above price for the laontii of IJovaaber on account 
 of surplus.* 
 How, if I underetanl triat right, you simply, arbitrarily 
 stats that that price is made ^aid there shall ba no surplus, - 
 no consideration of the surplus plan in the month of 5cv'^aber. 
 Kow, on Sovsmber IQ, tha first taio'^ledge ^^ got of it, ive 
 received a ocxiffisunlcation which says: 
 
 *That the surplus plan be so aa«ndS(d that from 
 the voluas of surplus aiUs: a trade surplus of five 
 per cent of the total volum= of v»hoie milk sold be 
 deducted from the total surplus, and tha rsiaaind^^r 
 b© treated as the net surplus to be djalt with as 
 provided in the stirplus plan.* 
 I How, you can readily see tiiat that is absolutely Inconsist- 
 
 ent. I supposed at the tima tha^ this ^^as d-jcided upon :ind made 
 ! 
 
 a vote 
 
 OOBBH. wyKins, What is the d&U of that? 
 
i,.:y 
 
 i.^ 
 
 > -'■■• ■-' 
 
8$ 
 
 Mr, aUSIOK. It i8 dsttsd Nov-im&er 18 — is wjfien we got it. 
 
 It saya ii^re, ■Votes paesad by the it'ederal Milk Co^aission for 
 Sew Kngl^^d, teadnasday, October 23, 1918. » 
 
 No^, if that is so, we Icne-w nothiriiS about it whatsoever. 
 Our first knowlsdg© of Uiis five per c-^nt. vias the let^&r — 
 and I tliink that ie admit tad by ths Ooasmission, too — v^blch 
 we racQived or Hovemfoar 18. At that tiae you contemplated, of 
 course, aisQcing th-- pries lor O^Gmxber. Th'^n on account of thd 
 absence of figures, if.nd so forth, no price sas mad^ for Dec^a- 
 tosr, but the Ooaaraittse rulei that iaatt»ra rsKain ia s tu tu juo 
 until fiirthtir dir^otion of t oij ::oisraission. 2<"0i^, of ooursa, 
 thi^re ha.3 b.3C>n no further direction of tha Ooiaoaissioa, jnA tha 
 facts are that in Decaffifosr we ar?j goins to have a substantial 
 surplus. W-3 cannot deduct that five par o^mt., which ia o.illad 
 trad'3 surplus, in our pric&s for iJeeumbir, bv;caufie no pric«fi 
 were made, ^m'l therufora it oo'uld not 0-:; considor&d in th© 
 ' pries tjrxat was ja^de. Now, you do not raaun to a^v us to Ciirry 
 th© surplus at th^ saais price,- 9-3/4 cants,- for Ddcaza'o&r. 
 If that is the ruling of th^ Board ^s objoct strsnuouely ouid 
 ask for a hearing on that. Is thsit your position, Mr. Ihiting? 
 
 Mr. OfiAllLSS WhITIifG. Yss. 
 
 Hr« OUSIO^. You eas, it ie rather an embarrassing situ- 
 ation. . ..• . - 
 
 C^oam. MOBT?IS. Well Dr. Qii.bert, about «hat ¥/as th« sur- 
 plus for Kov^abirr? Vou havin't any figuri^s for :3aC'33iber, I 
 priisuas? 
 
 Mr. OILBSBT. ¥o, I haven't any for D-acarabc-r. Tho 7>'hiting 
 Comp'i.ny's approxijeattsly 9 par cant, 
 
 Coisai. iiOm-s'13. It wouli ba only four par o^nt. to b^s car- 
 riad to surplus. iiOA miish cr^iator will it be for Jjssiiabar than 
 

 ':. ,i 
 
 ■'..-..:-•, ■■- <•■• V .■ 
 
 .,;■.:,;..'* -i s- 
 
 
 
64 
 
 that? 
 
 Mr. aUSIOK. i^. Whiting, can you glva m& an idea what the 
 •urplijus v»iil be? Asaumxng it was nine per cent in tfovtiaber, 
 what is your btj?^t ji*i®Bb2nt as to Beceaber? 
 
 Mr» WKITIWG. It will be oonsidarably larger, i'ifty per 
 cont. lirger, I should say. 
 
 Mr. OUSIOK. Sell, express that, plaase, in a porc^ntage. 
 About fourtsan per cant? 
 
 Mr. WHITIHG. Yes. 
 
 Mr. GUSIOK. About thirteen or fourteen psr c^int, surplus 
 in DeCi^JtQbsir. Now, Mr. Chairmjui, th-si point is that we have no 
 price in which is absorbed that five p^r cent, trada surplus 
 as yet. You see, there is tine trouble, b^caus-j no price vas 
 made for December. 
 
 Ooaiffi. SAWYEB. You consider triat th@ spread is not suffi- 
 cient to take care of tha five par cont? 
 
 Mr, OUSICK. Oh, no, it cW '-. And it ^as not figured 
 
 I 
 
 srith that in vi©», because' this thing cams subseiusntiy, when 
 you contemplated making the prica for Docasabsr. 
 
 Oowm* W^IS» I do not 3c now just exactly what was said 
 or dons at that meeting. Prior to the Movuaber hsarins, as I 
 recall it, it was true that ^e tooi into sonsideratioa 
 
 the spread with tha idea of a fiv© per cant, trads surplus for 
 the month of Hovaabsr. 
 
 Mr. OUSICK. Not prior to Hoveaber. It was the straight 
 surplus than. The straight surplus as you gantleiasn — — 
 
 Oocan. MOB'RIS. Wall, wasn't that lat-^r. Dr. Trilbert, 
 enrittan in referonca to the action that was taken — perhaps 
 you were late in g,ttin,s it, but it was written in rsfdsrenco 
 to ths T^ovembar situation. 
 
i 
 
 — . ,t ^. 
 
 Xq*su 
 
 m 
 
 'sci'sq ^ 
 
 
85 
 
 Dt, aiLBSOT. The letter which Mr. Gusick speaks of, aat»d 
 Sovem&er 16 or 18, was lata in getting out. Th-xt is toe point. 
 Of course, -ifttsr the hearing of October 23, whan the price vyas 
 fixed for Novamber, thare were verbal announcams^nts. That is, 
 w© talked it over with the various parties. But the formal 
 announcement did not get into their hands until the middle of 
 Hovember baoauss the Secretary did not have tiae to get it out. 
 
 Mr. CiUSIOy:. The Shairmaji of the Comiaission at that meet- 
 ing wrote, or stated, that there would be no change in the 
 surplus plan at that time. '&'e und^srstood that at that time the 
 surplus plan was going throxigh until th^ 1st of January, so that 
 we would have a six months* period to decide what %as the better 
 eoursa to pursue ov<?n in regard to the five per cent, trade 
 surplus. Nov*, if you have got your records you feill find that 
 Mr. Allen stated that. 
 
 Coram. MCHBIS. I rsmeabsr; you are absolutely ri|^ht. Mr. 
 Allen caase in here and he had not heen present at the tixecutive 
 meetings. Ke had not consulted with other xaembers of the Oom- 
 mission and in;advisedly he made his statement of what you say. 
 But I thought that was corrected later. 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. It was only oorrected by that letter of 
 Hovaiaber 18, and of course we took it up with tha Secretary, 
 »e tooK it up with the Oommission hers*, :xnd then subseiuently 
 when the Oonssinsion decided the prici^s would remain in statu _ 
 ^uo until tl-iese figures were produced, I thsn took it up per- 
 sonaH'" %-ith Mr. Bird and -^r, Gilbert, and I *as unable to find 
 out ^ust exactly what the Bitu:ition was. ?h© last word I had 
 with Mr. Bird was that he would telegraph the Executive :;om- 
 isittae and find out what their views ware. And I tnink, as the 
 result of that, Hr, Gilbert telephoned me that their vie?<a were 
 
8i/Iqi«e 
 
 
 ■■,^.:-!iK a^;!.v-f 
 
 ?^.;,'v.'--^ 5. 
 
 I?r!:cw- ,-; :;,^'i, &:i': . , 53*; 
 
86 
 
 that there would be a five per cent, trade surplus figuriid for 
 the month, of Jscti-fflbdr and that €'ie surplus v^ould be the amount 
 that &xC:i&dL&d that. Am I right, '^r. Gilbert? 
 
 Dr/ OUBEBT. Partially. 
 
 Coaam. M0H:-JIS. The first part is ail right. 
 
 Dr. GILBEl??. It i^as dicided that there would be a trade 
 surplus for DacesaDsr the sane as for TJov-araber. And than the 
 Executive CouEoittsa r'Splied to ^r. Bird*s telsgr.am to wait un- 
 til tha percentage of surplus had b^en figured out for thi vari- 
 ous daolsrs for Ifovembdr. 
 
 ilr, GUSICy.. Of course you -iid not tell ma that. 
 
 Br. aiI3ET?T. That has bean dona only within tha last day 
 or so. 
 
 CJQiam. MOBBIS. I rem'ss^er my reply to the tales^-am T;as tliat 
 as to the fiva par cent, surplus, I thought if there «-as any 
 doubt about it that it should be settled at the huarlng^ 
 
 I*r* 'JII.BIPT. That is ?/hy it is brought up now. 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. I %-ova.d suggest this, Mr. Ohairaixn, as being 
 tbs best thing we can do at this tiiaei for this pr-jssnt body 
 to make no stateasant in re.^^ard to that situation, and aft;;r the 
 figures are in we can tals.e that whole thing up. That sill be 
 in tirae to tr^at the Decombor situation* 
 
 Com:?-* MO!???IS. Vour idaa is that this lu-setion could pro- 
 perly lay ovor imtil ths hearing of tlis 30 th, and by t.nat time 
 wo will Ifvnoa' soa«whare near what tha surplus will amount to? 
 
 Mr, CUSIOi:. Will y.nos bsttsr what it v;ill be. 
 
 Mr. 1I01??IS. Of course ¥*« do not vvant to injurs anybody. 
 Wq want to be fair to everybody; it was unfortunate, perhaps, 
 that it v»as not made plain at that tias. "^r. Pat tee, what do 
 you say about dafi^rring ooncidaration of this question of sur- 
 
..,-* ' r .\ 
 
87 
 
 plxm for the month of D-^ camber iintil th&n-s flares ara in omd 
 we Eieet again on the 3v0th? 
 
 Ur, PATTKS. If the thing must be opened up, it may as well 
 bs then. It could probably be more? intellig^^ntly handled then. 
 I I would say, hOT&ever, that «e hav^s undoretood and acted on the 
 presujaptittn tiiat the pric© iiieant wh-itt ths farmsr was to set. It 
 was &D bo t^i'i aaaui. 
 
 CoffiBa, U0HEI3. Your pcint is that when tJ>3 Oommlnr.ton 
 announciii tliat the conditions would reaain ths sam^a tmtD„ furth- 
 er ordoi-8 froza tlie Oorwaission,- that la, at the HoVi^Eabar hear- 
 ing — that that caxried the saae oriar in rufarencs to siirplus 
 that prevailed in T^ovsmber? 
 
 ar» PATTSS. Absolut-sly. 
 
 Mr, 0U3iaK.» iir- Ohairmrm, say I ask l^r. Pattee a question? 
 
 Oorsat. II01?T?IS. Y0S. . , . 
 
 Mr, OISBIOY* Mr. Pattgs, is it not true that y-rm ccrarauni- 
 cat0d with the S-5«cri-tary of Cais Coj^siEaion -^na that j^-otj stat-jd 
 j t^t yeu ^isr^ very jsuch in the dark aa rsgards tho rulinf^ of 
 tha :3cxi®£isoion on th-^ roat*:ar yf euvjlixB, on B^eesibar 13, and 
 inquired ®hat it really maant? 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. That is luite true, 
 
 Hr* aUSIOK. T}i«>n ho-« do -/ou rtjconsiia that with what you 
 iiava juat told the Ohair^an? 
 
 Mr« FATTIlS. And i ask-sa tha OoaEniasion if any sffort had 
 baan .uada on ths part cf the dealers to ssdr. any oth~jr con- 
 struction, .-and was inforciwd by him tiaat another construction 
 iiad been sought, and I infcnaed hia by latter that if that 
 matter were raised we wanted to be hsard. 
 
 Mr» CUSiai.. Weil, thyt is all right, 
 
 Cosa, WBiMS, I think wa will dofar that question, ttian, 
 until th@ figur<3S are ail in on ^he 30th. Is tho re any other 
 
b-ii&Xi^. 
 
 ,:jyf: /H^- 
 
 -tvf* \ ^T ' 
 
 t' ''.;..■'■'■>. 
 
 :-X 
 
 t-i^r-'t-^^jSll 
 
 4-.- ^i,?- 
 
88 
 
 matter on the part of --my daaier who <iosir«*a to \>e heard th.i« 
 morning; or is there anyone representing the public hare that 
 desirss to be heard this morning, or on tha part of the pro- 
 ducers? 
 
 Sr. yriANK B. CL.Km* I ^^int to state that the Producers 
 und'isratood that the Dso3mbar pric-s was to bo tho sama as for 
 TTovembsr. Row, I ara a ehippar to the New York raarkst, and I 
 want the Boston dealers to realize hare that tha Hew YorV- aar- 
 ket is way ah^ad of the Boston aariist. And if we take into 
 considoration the surplus in the D3C rober price our Ne« England 
 producarTB are going to be way behind tha F^w Yoirk morlcet,- a 
 spread that is entiraly imr^-asomable. 
 
 ComEi, M0IP:?IS. Wall, -ve of course ae a Comaaistjion will not 
 consider the Hew York market at all, lir. aiar>:, if your organ- 
 ization expeots help from this aorsaission thay must not desert 
 thc^ Boston and of it either. We hcid a lot of evidanoe har« 
 Saturday aftomoon from dealers around llaonhester, IJaw Haaip- 
 shire, of tixe f-xriasrs cutting prices there, which aid not sat- 
 iofy the Ooaaission v^ry -veil, u.nd we rire s^ing to pass those 
 papers ovsjr to your ?\3sociation to cheek up and stjQ wh-sther thsy 
 have beT;n doing it, I feel that you shoiild hold the asmbers of 
 your Association up to the sarao degree of care- in carrying out 
 the 9oia2ii3aion*s prices and not letting thsia desert the situ- 
 ation that w9 are trying to hold the dealers to. Is there any- 
 thing els3? (Ho response.) Then tha hearing xa adjourned un- 
 til tha 50th day of D^cambsr at two o'clock in tha aftsrnoon. 
 
 (The hearing was adjourned at 11,40 a.m. Im- 
 msdiat-jiy after the adjourninsnt Chairman All«n ar- 
 rived. The hearing was re-opened at 12.03 p.m.) 
 
/ -■■, • f* 
 
 
 f; v5 CI 
 
 C OV-: :: 
 
 4 
 
 i 
 
QoasB. IIOBHIS. Chairman Aiisn has eomathini: to pr^aaat 
 Dsfors -so aisband tiais sorning. 
 
 Chairman ALLSS. I oa sorry taat I wag la.ia in getting 
 hers. A tvjlegram has coso in from tht? jfood Adsiinistratian in 
 Waehir^ton, wJaxch r-oade as feiioas; 
 
 •Wiring aii adsinistrators aig^ning of araistice 
 atsctfixng virtual psacs bring© to an ^ind isaaiy activitiyo 
 et 'Che -e*oo{t Auiainxstra^ioa, tht3r-^f:or& it i^ not d^-aed 
 odvisaftid for roprt?gsntatiV;#s of i'ood Aaisinistration 
 to particxpata or jseciiate? in Goni'arsnc© rtjgarding 
 SiJJE. priSrfS J>»yoad aatr of expiriition curr^snt outstuna— 
 ing agreeaants." 
 As this cali5,sras» is intsrprs^^-^jd 07 tiitS QosEaigaidn, u.n viti* 
 of th^ warrant undatr -J^Mah '■?«•» ars f?orkins, ana in vi-s-ts of tne 
 jaexsorondua -latt^d Mov,.:m"Oir 22, sign«?d by bia Producers and 
 iJeaiars, Judsiag tii^t tae Qosssission sontinuw £Qr ta* p&riod of 
 tlxx'i^a i:K3nth&, Jiuv^j^T'j 1, i;#iy, tQ April 1, ivi9, it wouia Si^em 
 as though Uiis G-os«ai3si'm scula f aAriy sa^et and sat priev;g for 
 th«2 a^xt Ihri'S^ raontlis pssriod. i* gous -without sayin.j that this 
 is probably ths last sisetiag &f tii-^ S'sdsrai Mili. Ooi^aiseion of 
 Saw England. Uu sh,Ov_ld want to put tliis up to Vashinrtcn ;ind 
 gat ii d-^finit-ii ruiisg in vi-.^w ol this tQlai^Tii^, v^' jch ivouid 
 taadoubtsdiy b« I'avorabls inasmucti as th; tisiegran says •out- 
 stajidin^r agj-^^ifiienta.'' In UiscuguinM- this m.':ittir with ths 
 QoffiSiisoionj w.^ thought it only fair to r-^acl ti-xis t-^lazvism and 
 to say to i'ou msn tlr^t it iy tha desir-- of tha Oosjniission fthan 
 Yfj ieiiV^ ^he joD to iaravi it in such a -sf^y that ^3 not only 
 aavt' siiiitevar goo a things ths Ooi&aisaion haa bsson abia to do, 
 tout i.1' poasibl© put in soa*- sonatruotivii program ior thu futurd, 
 Qo fir as tlia Cosuaiscion can do tiiat. Ana. if tha parties to 
 
A-' i< - J .,:--■■ 1 
 
$0 
 
 the agraeasnt feal that that is the b#ot way to do it, T^hy we 
 frill wire Washington and try md gat such a ruling- On the 
 oth&r hand, the Coramiaaion has got to stop eom-^ftime, it eay b^j 
 that, and you might feel that we could stop now, bsjfore Janu- 
 ary 1; formulate some plan wher-^by soieething could bs done for 
 the best intar-jsts of both isidas and stop January 1 instead of 
 naxt April 1. As I see it, I thirfic it sovld be bettsr to talce 
 a lonfar tiroe than January 1, when pricaa ara fixed for th® 
 ndxt throo montha — if such is the ruling — and both sidas 
 would then hava thrse montiie' tisia to woj^-t out soasthin^ for 
 the future. But thers is no -juastion in the minis of ths 
 CoiiBnission that this is the last tiiaa that tha Oonaaission \sill 
 sit, bscausa if vie do fix prices for tho next three months th^y 
 ■afill bs fixed about January 1, and that will be? tim last tiias. 
 
 Coas®, MOB'RIS. Pardon rs-.^ for a su^^tjstion. Thar© ai,^t 
 b0 a-^etings with the Sxaoutive Cojiraitt09, or portions of ths 
 Ooa^isaion, if any questions arose during the thi^s months 
 period? ■ 
 
 Ohairraan ALLETT. Oh, y-is, yss« But I m-jan, this wox^d bs 
 the last BjQsting of priea fixing. Are there any suggestions 
 from ths Producors or the Dealsre? 
 
 Ooaas. 1I0I?T*IS. Perhaps yeu woiild lilte to sea the tele- 
 gram and the agreement,- tha wordinr of it. (Papers handed 
 to Mr. Sears. ) 
 
 Mr, CUSIC3K. Well, you want tiiie thing to 30 on until 
 April 1, don't you, Mr. Sears? 
 
 Mr, SSABS. We have signed an agreom^nt to th it efftict, 
 
 Mr. OUSIGK. Mr. Ohairaian, I think I can safely say, as 
 far as all th^ doalers signatori-'S to that agreamant are con- 
 comsd, that w® think it is only right, it, is a matter of 
 
,a 
 
 ^' •':.:• ^^.'.iiii.'r^^ an l-&?rJ.?. 
 
91 
 
 Jii8ti03, that this Comsiiseion sh.ouJ.ct continue until tha 31st 
 day of March or th^ 1st of April. It certainly is unfinishisd 
 business as conlaBQJlated by th^a taidgrtau. jPurthermorj, your 
 prices hive been ai;ide with & view of at least a continuation 
 for QOSRn time^ as therQ is a gensrcil clfeaning up to be aads. 
 It isovld alffios*- bs a catas trophy for ttie OojEsission to stop 
 January 1 under present conditions, and I can't conceive that 
 Washington ^-ould do *.hat fittingly, I would almoet tiiir^ that 
 you would not try to gat a ruling from Washington under ths 
 prasint conditions but would assuiBd that the telsgram mscnt 
 what it eaid. 
 
 Ohairsan ALLSH, Well, wo undoubtedly tirill, I aaid ss 
 would take it up with Washington. I 'hink ws vvill tail Wa.sh- 
 in,i:ton that »s have rscisivod this tala^jr^ia ana that according 
 to our ai^T'ieaient vsith the Uaalars and Produosra wa are fixing 
 prices for the next thra^ months, 
 
 Mr, :-USI3E. Tiuxt is fine» and the reason X said that 
 about Waahinf=:ton is this: I have haeyn ths^re within seven or 
 eight days; tha condition is chaotic- 3o raany rte.n rc-sigfilng 
 that were faniliar »ith thse-e conditions , that if you undwr- 
 tool£ to get a ruling from man not f.rsnili:»r with th>; conditions 
 they might not be abla to put the weight to the situ-atlon which 
 the aen *ho h:2,ve oaen viritjo the situation for th3 last year 
 could. So that I thinjc it wouJ.d be fln^ for you m^n to stand 
 by us and assxas^ that that is what that maans for ths naxt 
 txiree months. In the nrj-^antiae, «e are going to g.-Jt soas sort 
 of ragulation in rog.'s.rd to the industry. 'S« hop-s to s-je aosss 
 of you f ello's'^fs again sven if you do no', cotso froia th^ Jood 
 Administration- I 'jje speaking now for ny cli^-'nts also, 
 
 '20mm, MCRT^IS. You i/iinK that ths fair intarpra tation 
 
'!•..> ..■O'l 
 
92 
 
 of t-'iQ t jlerram ie that we woiiid be expectod to con^.inua diiring 
 the period of Uila a^-aQxnsntt '^^ y"u, Mr, Cusick? 
 
 itr. OUSIGK. I should say so. 
 
 Ottam, MOBTMS. That woiiid be your ruling on it? 
 
 Mr. aUSIOr. I shoiild say that is what that talagraiH 
 means, beoaiise it cartainly is a current, outstanding agroomant, 
 b©caus5 that thing T/ao a'ide and r^^ported to the Oocnijission at 
 the hviarirLg rihen 3'Oti scjt th3 Bec^amber pricss, lonrr before this 
 t el .gram was racoivad, and it -sas signed and executed, and I 
 suppos^id accepted by th'3 Coacdssion at that tiiae. Therefore, 
 we wore alive on the price fixing for tiiroa aon1J-is. And that 
 that v^as in tho minds of the Coitmiiseion is indicated by th® 
 fact that you insisted on letting tiitj 'Tovexabor prices rsfaain 
 in statu luo for I^eoember b^cauae of Uiia inability of t^e 
 
 dealers to hava tha fi^urss accordin^:; to your classification. 
 So that all the svidenca pointe to ths; fact that thia is an 
 outstandina: asraeiatjnt which cannot in dec*ancy be abridged* 
 
 Ohairman ALL3K. I thinlc that is luite clear. Do you 
 feal the same, j&r. Sears? 
 
 Mr. SSA1?S. Y9S, I thinfe it is luita cli-ar. 
 
 Chairman AIXEW. Mr. Fatten? 
 
 Mr. PATTJS« That is our position OTtirsly. 
 
 Ohairraan ALLL^* Mr. Morris has iilready annoimOttd the ad- 
 joumiaont until Dscember 30. 
 
 {Ad^ourntju at 12.10 p. as. to S g.m*, Monday Dactisber 30,1918.) 
 
X. . -'^ •:• V 
 
 1 
 
 t, -' . ■ 
 
 ^j-' 
 
93 
 
 FEDZ1>.AL MILK aOMLiir>SIC!N i'OS 3SW 3NGLAND. 
 
 Boston, ]>sc2!nb9r 30, 1918. 
 
 HSA3RIIJ0 BSjj'OTIS THE i'SDKRAL MILK OOMMISSIOH i'OB HEW 
 SI?GLA>fD in Booia 427, State .pus©, at 2 o'clock 
 ?tM,, on tiia lusstion of a possible readjust- 
 ment of milk prices for 'law Sngland. 
 
 OhairjEan ALLEN presiding; Sscrstary, Dr. Artiixir 1. Gilbert 
 A quorum ^^^^ press^nt. 
 
 Ohairman ALLIIN , in calling to order, said: Ws will first 
 hear from the produo-^rs. k'r. Pattsa. 
 
 3TATSM}5!i!T 3Y MR, •RIGllAHD H> PATT .SE. 
 
 :Jr, PATT2S. Mr. OhaiiTsian, I aas sorry to say th.it our *ir* 
 Davis, on whom we raly for all our figuring costs, etc., has 
 been Btriok<3n with the influanga lind is not abia to by h^ra to 
 pras^nt his own figures. Ke took his figiiras home isfith hisa 
 Saturday night :j.nd ^as taken sick that ni^iit, and hag simply 
 ssnt tham in hsre, I ain,th3r3fors,obligad to pr^isent thaa in a 
 vary fra^aaontary ¥;a.7. I aia not abls to cosiais^nt on thc-m as ilr. 
 Davis, who compiisd thea, could. 
 
 As nearly ;is I con ctits it, the figures that have b3.-5n 
 filed !«<ith you jxq his ri>tabulation of the costs as worked 
 up from the latast data, ??hich w^s principally that r'-c-^iv- 
 3d prior to your last hearing, supplement ad, I understand, by 
 
•ncn. ti'^ 
 
soine f§w that may have some In slnsie.. At that hearing you 
 asked for oertaln particular Inforiratlon, . and Mr. .D.Avld has 
 apparently oompllsd' that Inforiratlon on separate sheets, of / 
 ' which but one copy was found in his icemoranduir ,-3uch things^ ^s 
 ' the prise of labor by states,. the number of oows Involved, . and' 
 so on,, as soice of you who were present v/ill renjember.. I would 
 like to file that fbr the Inforiration of the GcJinElsslon,. al- 
 though r hav« not had time to look it over,. But it Is a suib- 
 ijcary made up from +he material upon which he compiled his other 
 data. . 
 
 (Mr. Pattee filed with the Ocimmlssion sheets ,, which were 
 marked' "Exhibit 1, December 30, 1918, E. W, K,/'-as follows: 
 (1) The average cost of producing a quart of icllk by SAate (Jlew; 
 England!), December ,1917 , .June, 1918, survey for June, 1918, 
 August, 1918, Ocotber and November, 1918; -(2) Summary sheet of 
 data from milk producers presented' afidavit, November, 1918,. for 
 Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Cdrnectlcut-,. 
 Rhode Island and NewYork; (3) C<Jst of milk production In Mas- 
 sachusetts, for November, 1918; (4)'Cdst or milk production in 
 Maine for Nov/ember,. 1918; (5) Cist of milk produc^tion in New 
 Kampshire, for November, 1918; (6)'CcJ8t of milk production in 
 Vermont for November, 1918; -(7) CSet of milk production in: 
 Cdnneotlcut, for November, 1918; (3) Five-line summary of cost 
 of milk, twelfth zone deduction, and cost per hundred weight 
 and per quart f.o.b,, Boston). 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. According to the tabulation of the figures as 
 we have them, as we had them, the weighted average cost of pro- 
 ducing from a five thousand pound cow .one quart of milk f.o.D,. 
 shipping points, would be .0857.. 
 
 Ceirmlssioner SAWYER. Now ^^ ' ^^^^®®» ^'^^^ ^ iclnute. . 
 
viol. 
 
 
 
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 ftllicUi^T ixTV jaCiCiSV, 
 
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 ni aoi-fr. L'i.c-'* i 
 
 
 ncf.tr:. '.'I- CI" 5j.l]'-t; td *aoC''(-"/ 
 
 ^ '£) 
 
 
 , f x'.Z; tZ, Co. , . C > O . 2 
 
 .o,n \Ll-x. '!■:■ i-' <'^'s £:ia v/ov t'-: '^c^ . 
 
95 
 Take yo-ip first, sheet, and you will find -t-hat +he average oost, 
 
 the viraighted avora£:e i'or a five thousand poimd cow, is given as 
 .0857; that tha avarage production p.-a- sow in this eurvey is 
 glvan as 5,51S pounds, and that tiis averdga production par oow 
 csneorsd is givun as 4,055 pounds. 
 
 Mr. P/VrTSE. Yes. 
 
 Ooauaissionar SkWfl^R, ^ow, you brought t.hat .0674 for a 
 5,518 pound cow down to tha cost for a 50GO pound cow. Is 
 that it? 
 
 Mr. PATPSii. I siiouil thinic so. I should thinjfc that would 
 b9 the process, Mr. Sawyer. 
 
 Coismissionsr OHPIS. But according to these figurae tha 
 avercig-j proauctxGu par cow census is 4,055 pounds. 
 
 aoiriraissioner BIHD. Yes, but the ba.sis of the Cosmission's 
 average was 5000 pounae. -' 
 
 Gostmissioner itD1?3US. Yas, 1 know that, but I was sisiply 
 wondering how this woula figxir^a out. 
 
 Mr. PATTS2. You unlarstand that pdrsonaiiy X have not had 
 an oppertimity to verify these figures, but I assume that shat 
 Mr. Sawyer says is true. 
 
 Chairman ALLSH. What were the last month's figurcis set- 
 tled by th-3 3omiaission, or «hat -*as tha last figure, weighted 
 average, for a 5000 pound cow? 
 
 Mr. PATTSB. i h-i.y«n't the ii^st month's exhibits Yi^jra, jjid 
 I cannot tail you offh:ind. But, if I r'smsmbsr ri^ht, ,087 and 
 something. 
 
 Oomraissionsr iaOllHIS. ■ Well, I thinJc ^e understand it. 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. The singlui shoots that I havy just h:4ndod you, 
 setting forth .0857 per luart, would maan 3.98505 p-r hundred, 
 and, taking the 12th zona dsiductions, .72515, ana adding to the 
 
t i. .<■ 
 
 ,, t .,-!»> 
 
 i/ ^:--.'.: Tr 
 
96 
 
 cost at the country i-ailroad station, monlii mSce the cost dB- 
 liveriid at Boston, i> .r hundred weight, |4. 710205, or p«r luart, 
 dividing that by 4G-1/2, 10.13 cents, dilivarad in Boston. 
 That ie, if you v.are to a^/ard us 10,13 cants, daliv^red in 
 Boston, we woula recaiv© for the 12th or typical zone .0857 
 at the railroad station for our aiJX . 
 
 Under the figuras that ar-:3 given, I see no way but for us 
 to aac that the Oommission asvard ua 10.13 C3nts per ^uart, do- 
 livared at Boston, 
 
 In discussing these fig\a-5S, I wish we could l5.no v« whether 
 or no the OoHBaiscion is to fix a pries for three xaonths, and 
 several oth-jr elements which will enter int^ tha price to be 
 received for miUt during the three jaonti-is. If so awarded; 
 whether or not whatever prise will oe awarded will be affected 
 by a surplus provision, auch as has obtained in the pact, and, 
 if so, what form tint siirplua arrangement will tafr;a? If it is 
 conteiaplated to revive the surplus charge bacii, we would liie 
 to be heai'd »ith respect to sossi changes wr.ich «e woiild as^ the 
 Conanission to aoKe in the matter of the surplus charges. 
 
 Ohairman ALL3F. Before answering; the question, ilr. Pattae, 
 I Twill say that we thitlc you should now put in ail your sug- 
 gesMons in regard to the surplus plan. 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. I do not *iish to be in the position of a^ing, 
 moving or requesting, or in any way sug-ssting the revival of 
 the surplus charge ba^t to ttie producers. 
 
 Ohairman AU.:i.H. I thira^ it is only fair to say here, as 
 Mr. Pattee has a^ed the Consiission a lusstion, that we are 
 proceeding with this hearing srith the understanding ctnd ac- 
 cording to the agreement entered into on Sovymber 13th, I thirfis. 
 it was, to fix the prices for thfs next three aonths. It c^'as 
 
? 
 
 Y^ttt) iL'.i;,^v >■ 
 
 't •'"i'".i,' 
 
 
 »te' 
 
 ' J^ V 
 
97 
 
 without saying that at ths tsnd of that pariod, if the Oommission 
 
 continues until April 1st, ths Goinmission will go out of ex- 
 
 iatenca on April 1st, ana that you can sount upon at liS lafi- 
 
 nite that tiua will bs th9 last m^^eting ox ths Oomssission. It 
 
 is true tiiat today we are proceeding on the asovBBption that 
 
 ths Administration at Washington will carry out the agresaaantt 
 
 which the aommission all feel that they should do, out we will 
 
 not, of course, got ths official approval from Washington be- 
 
 fora we establish the final pricoc for toe n>3Xt three months. 
 
 But there io another thing that we aill ought to realize, and 
 
 that is that this will be the last period, if *e do fix rices 
 
 for this period, for which tha aozEmiscion will sit. The,vafora, 
 
 it is a very pertinent thing to bring up now the i^ueetion of 
 
 surplus plan, because if you start sosisthing for three months 
 
 I and then you have no body such as this Oonusission, n^i^her we 
 
 nor anybody else ifcnows wnat ^^ili happen on April Int, so far 
 
 I as the surplus plan goes* Therefore, the luestion should b6 
 i 
 Yery carefully considered on all sides as to r-hat will oa the 
 
 I 
 
 I bast thins for tha ^hole industry tods^. 
 
 I Mr. PAT'CEii. Und^r the oircuastancee, Mr. Chairman, I 
 
 thiyfe. 1 will suggest a motion, if that is the proper tjrooedi»re» 
 that the Ooinaission find its price for the ne^tt three months 
 on tha basis of cost plus a reasonable profit, v/ithout a sur- 
 plus charge baOt to the fanaei'S« 
 
 Coram. MOBPIS. Oannot w^ tall what the S'sxrplus will be? 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. I simply made that c.e a suggestion to the 
 Goaaraission. If that be overruled, I should liV.s to suggest 
 certain changes in the surplus plan. 
 
 Mr. CUSIOYh. Mr. Chalnaan, I ^ant to a^ through you if 
 Mr. Pat tee realiaes that when the agreement was signed on 
 

 
 ». -" '..j -V w 
 
 
98 
 
 November 22ncl, ths orior of this dommisaion was that thyre 
 should bQ a surplus plan? That surplus plan was then in fores. 
 We supposed it was to continue in force. W© actsd on that 
 «S8\aaption. It is now in force, and even on tha i us sti on of tho 
 jaonth of Novimber your notice to ths dealers spi«cifisaliy says 
 that 1iie surpiiis plan is not even modified. 
 
 Chairman AIXEH. It is now in fores and sill continue in 
 force. 
 
 Mr. aUSIOl^v. While you mMe prices. 
 
 Chairaan ALLSB. Unless ths Cojmiission changes it. How, 
 Mr. Pattee has soias suggestions to rnMe* 
 
 Mr. CUSIO'K* He sugsasts abolishing the surplus. 
 
 Ohainnan ALLSH. 'Bxa Coa;ni8sion has not voted on it. W© 
 will hsar the suggestions. 
 
 Mr. CUSIOI^ Is that luas^.ion open at this la, to day, laidar 
 the ciroiaast.ances? ;. . > ■ . ■.■ 
 
 CSiainnan ALLSI?. I should say It was. W« have not answered 
 Mr. Pattys. 
 
 Ir. PATIOS. Mr. Chairman, if I do not mis-state, the 
 record will show that w« suggaoted to tlie "OBsaission nothing 
 «3xsept that tha status of t-he surpliis plan rsmain for tlis next 
 tliree months what it was for ^'ovesbtsr. If the Ooasiaission 
 ovsrruless that, I would fean iifce to mi^e sense eng-r^SBtions in 
 rs^rd to an amendzsent fjo the surplus plan. 
 
 ahainaan ALXSM. Tfe© Coajgussioa feels that the surplus plan 
 should continue in operation as long as ths Oosjmisaion sets a 
 fixed price. They wiH be gl-td to sit and listen to proposed 
 modifications, but otherwise th<* surplus plan will stay xn ei- 
 jfect as long as tsi& Goiomission sits. We hav>:i voted from time 
 to time various osodiflcations, which, of course, wo shall con- 
 
U^'i /v.ti,;. 
 
 jr.hi I'j ■>-!'. c ;'i 
 
99 
 
 I tinue to do if -we thirty advisable. So, you m^iy present your 
 suggestions, I^r. Pattee, 
 
 iir. PATTjSE. The first is rnado, as a matter of r- cord, that 
 ' no siiTpius bd charg'^d out^ to the farmers . 
 I I would now liXa to hand to thd Gotarission this slip. 
 
 (liandins to tv j Oomrnission this follovsing 5 
 I 
 
 •That the S P ba so amended that aftsr the de- 
 duction of the sX trade surplus, thare shall be de- 
 ducted the -Jtmount of ailfe purchased from daitrias 
 t*^on on sines Hovembar i^Oth, 1918, and tho net 
 balance so detersiinsid shall be th^ surplus deait %fith 
 as provided in tha surplus plan. 
 
 •Provided that, if such n^t balance shall not 
 madt the naoda of tha dealer, for roai^vst miJJs., and 
 to maks.«^ up the 5,i trade sturplus, Ui^ araount so n^edad 
 shall b3 t4j^;an at the whola mili& pries from dairi«5s 
 t^«n on since ?rova2Jbc;r ZOth and the bol^aice shall 
 b© the surplus charsea'ole to such dairies and no 
 others, as surplus undv^r the surplus plan.') 
 I would liKa to au^^»st to the Coraiaisaicn that tha iet- 
 tdrs •S P* stand, for 'Surplus Plan". I s&^j that the girl wrot« 
 it "S P". i initialled it that way in writing it, on the 
 assuinptlon that she would writs? •Surplus Plan", (rfeading the 
 suggestion as set forth abova in parenthesis.) 
 
 The Oommission in its sisdom way s«a fit to raviss tha 
 language. 
 
 The purpose of that rsJiuest, stated as well as I Knoa hoa 
 to state it, is that the production of dairies so taSttsn on 
 shox:ld not bd added to tha surplus charged bact of dairies 
 previously on; that the diialers aight not bo allowed to go out 
 
' ;».j .. 
 
 :;j:^.^ :^iv; i^O"- 
 
 \K' cavt* ftCi&e. :.':;'--i 
 
 o- - ",-tt ^. 
 
 
 <A.'^ 
 
 IJF 
 
 ^;.-vr> 
 
 .*«.:. X- r^^^Xq- .•:.;;?■ 
 
 fiOi^am.tj"S£ 
 
 ' . ** ":' 
 
 ■ . ■ ^' ■< -^ 
 
100 
 
 and add n«w (dairies to their purchaaae and charge bacK tlie 
 Burplus 80 crviatad to the dairies from whom thay were receiving 
 raiJis. prior to thair purchass fron now dairies. 
 
 Corasa. BIRD. Is there any stipiilation in there, Mr.Pa.tt3Q, 
 that tJie dairies that are supplying raiUc to tha daaiyrs should 
 not Changs ovar? 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. If yoii can ^rita such a stipulation and ®s 
 can assist you in enforcing it, we will ba glad to do so. 
 
 Coma. 3I1?D. 'ft'liat x^ro taction is that to the dsaiar if a 
 lot of dairiss change ovsr to somebody slse ana r^duci the 
 amoxait of csllis., and he cannot t^fiij ovar any dairies to t?i:.a 
 thdir place? What happens than? 
 
 Mr. PATTES. I thirfic that is coverod in ths second para- 
 graph. '^ .. - 
 
 3h&irman ALL2S, JTow, shall w5 disease th^J raattssr at this 
 point, or hurry along now and t^e up other points? Is there 
 any discussion desir<3d upon this? 
 
 Mr. 0USI01?-* Tes, we %ant to ba hsard on any modification 
 of the surplus clause. This is ths first wa have hoard in re- 
 gard to such a thin,?j as t/iis. We ara trying to do two things 
 at once. If you w.aait us to iiscuss it no*, v^ry well, but I 
 thirfe v?s should havs a littls time to thirfr: it ovar and find 
 what in time he m3an8 by this. Ka says you aay chanrrs the ian- 
 guaga. AH ;?e have to go t>y is tiie languaga that appears hare. 
 
 Oh.ainsan ALLSN. I thirfe «e laight as woll 50 along, that 
 it will sava time for both sides. 
 
 Mr. OUSIOf,. ^9 would liy;^ to find out what he naeans by 
 it. 
 
 Chairman ALLiiN. A^ him. 
 
 Mr, CUSICl'v. Just Ahat do you aean by that, ^Ir. Pattee? 
 
4 
 
 f Tft •■ 
 
 i 
 
 rSiy ,, > !. ■^■'sj. .■».■...,■., I-.' V- 1 •;. 
 
 :-f^ iio fc-"^ ■:■:■ 
 
 3Vi.; n■^^• ,^f;-s|:i 
 
 .'/h i' 
 
 ^ « 
 
 
 '"' .O'tj,..^ 
 
 
101 
 
 Mr, PATTES. I don't thxr&a I can improve on the language 
 as laid down in th-^ statement, Mr. Chairman. 
 
 Coram. MlTRDOCIiC. Perhaps he can givs us the reasons, then, 
 why he asScs for the change. What is the basis of it? 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. If the Commission woiiLd li'is.e to consxilt its 
 own record, it will find that during the summer a large number 
 of dairies were taiicen on by the dealers in milt, more than were 
 dropped. Dr. Gilbert has furnished me with some figures that 
 he compiled, v/hich are, I presume, in the possession of the 
 Commission. They are figures relative to the nvimber of new 
 dairies taicen on and old dairies discarded or lost, or disap- 
 pearing, in the case of the variou^eaiers. These figures 
 show that there was a considerable addition to the number of 
 dairies laS&en on, that in some instances the number was twice 
 as great or more than the number of dairiss lost, without a 
 corresponding increase in the sale of miJ3s:. Now, the complaint 
 is general throughout the producing section that the continu- 
 ance of that practice not only throws doubt on the necessity 
 for the surplus charge baclc that is made, but opens the door 
 to a serious situation affecting the interests of the producers 
 in many sections. If the present system is continued, under 
 which without cheCit or restraint in some way the dealers may 
 continue to taKe on new dairies at their will and pleasure and 
 charge bacSs: to the producers who have been previously supplying 
 miOas. the loss on the excess miUc that arises in that v/ay. 
 

 
there Is nothing to prevent dealers from Invading new territory 
 from taking on daipiee that would seriously handicap the opera- 
 tions of country creameries, and their doing eo would be at no 
 loss or sacrifice to themselves, but the loss that would arise 
 in that way would fall upon the dairies which they had been pre- 
 viously handling, although it would be the result of no fault of 
 and would be absolutely not under the control of such dairies,. 
 We believe it is fair, just and reasonable, that if a dairy an- 
 ticipates a certain need for milk in the future and goes out 
 and purchases the milk in anticipation of that nee^ the loss 
 that arises by reason of any faulty Judgement, because the dairy 
 finds that it did not need it, fall on the man who exercised 
 that Judgement, ^o went cut and bought milk that he did not 
 use.. The loss in making such purchases should not be charged 
 up to the other dairies, that have nothing to do with it.. 1 
 think that covers the whole situation.. 
 
 Chairman ALLBN. Are there any questions?' 
 
 Mr. ZIMMERMANN ( of Wavlandr vsr, nv> a 
 
 "^y-^aoaK. Mr. Chairman, I would lik« 
 to .e. .. .,.. ,.,,, „„^ ^^^_ ^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^ 
 
 don*t think ther.© wm k^ 
 
 .1.9. e will be a surplus. T b^o +v,o+ *v ^ 
 
 i' ^'t. X see that the farasrs 
 
 «a.«l„ there between two .onths.. .e this «e„tXe.an se.. ,. 
 
 don-t .no, *,t le ,.,^ tohappen when the three „onthe Je up , 
 
 -v,n« ,uet .ot th..„«h Kc,«„.e. ^, .....,.,. ,„, ,_„ ^^^ 
 
 ruapy and Maroh coining.. j>nother thing we are »„„, * 
 
 "■"«' *= are ooBlng to the 
 lipst of Anpn AH^ 
 
 Jiprii , and se ape not koIbi tn i,.„. 
 
 going to have any war., jf ,;,. 
 
 tMng waa going to he In the hands of the Pe.lonaX hoaPd Plght 
 
"i J i'iO 
 
 ■:i^^. 
 
 c-f; -j-S 'Stt 
 
 , n ■ 
 
 'ICl IK, 
 
 ■,V'^ P^i 
 
 r ,n^ia%i.-ir 
 
 
 b1 TfiC- '..tfi-'^^i'fs! 'i 
 
 - -c-i.- -.iH!- fV^V- 3i. t.":^ - 
 
 ■: ". ? 3ii>t K ^ 
 
 ■.ri.-;.. , -, i'.iii;-; ^"i*i ^ -'^ 
 
 'iJ2iJ{. 
 
 ^.i;to:i. 
 
•long, It s^uld save this ergulng, disputing, and the faricers 
 «nd others jrculd sbids by it.. If '?© Iocs thnt th© first of 
 April, are «p© going to have ecntinual arg.jing.. It eeaiES to ae 
 It would bs a good thing to do i»v/ay .vltfc ttrat sort of argument, 
 as aenoh 38 poeaible, giving tfcis easce board tfcs pc#©r tfeat it 
 bae had me a regional boar'' In sstiting tbe ppios of ajllk, that 
 that would be satlefaotory to the prodisosps and oontpaotora 
 both.. Othsrslae, «re sfill bsivs this continual arguiEent, wfciofc 
 the public dees not want to sse, and one thing and aasotfcer,. I 
 think ws certainly don't want that,. T think it e&vs © good ds«l 
 of trouble If we oculd h^ve eoaie kind of agreansnt, and If ars 
 don*t things will get into bad shape.. There's another thing I 
 would like to say, Intpoduclng another queeticn.. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Y u srs s ppoduosr? 
 
 He, iSlMilERHASK. Yes sir. I ssifr the other night that they 
 w&fB going to lower the prlo$ of flour and were going to «hsrge 
 a dollar mcr& for the grain.. Kow, the prise cf grain affeots 
 tbs prlc© cf aellk. We in Maseaofcueetts are tec inuoh at ths a?er- 
 oy ot soffisbody in the Wsst. A grain corporation gsts tcgether 
 and sets the price of grain. GSntlsjrsn, I will tell you how 
 tfcsy do It.. It is a funny thing how they Bj&k© s eonsuffier in 
 Ss-y aagland, and sv 3ry produosr, j^ay the bill.. They gst into a 
 pcoa out Wsst-I don't knc* whether it would be the afeioago 
 Bc*rd of Trads or eom® grsln 3orporatiGn,-®nd get together end 
 asafcs the figures.. It es^ss that befors, the gold standard 
 usad to be -what th«y iceaaursd values .ylth.. It esea-s no^a? that 
 the standard Is the hog.. The prlo« :f grsln Is settled by tha 
 price cf th* fe'?g.. If ths hog is $13.15, that governs the grain. 
 
-: > 't, 
 
 
 r:':s--'J'- :;l.-r. ■''■■•it ■^eiG'xsc!: .i'Ss^.l :jc--?s; 
 
 .„ /■ ,. .;, V, 
 
 ■"• r,5«'"'2 '■; 
 
 W|V ■;■;: V 5:; 
 
We 
 
 VAgbt tc 4o scajethlng to bre«k tfce power of the gr%ln ocrpcra- 
 
 tlon, the biggeet trust «a havs In the scintry.. Ev^py perecn, I 
 
 don't oare »ho paye for ffiillc, pa^e more than he ought to, be- 
 
 eau6« these asen hsve the pcwer tc settle thle thing. Thsy gst 
 
 into 1 rcois end dictate th© prloe of grain. Thee© are the fscte. 
 
 7 don't knee of a win today producing milk irbo ie eak'ng ascnsy, 
 
 beeiuse ths acn out thsr^ have the power to asks or state th« 
 
 price fr-^ the grsin, although %'e have the biggest crop *?» ever 
 
 had, snl still everybody Is In the power of those perscne.. Tb® 
 
 out thare 
 Preeident of the HnitM States and all these people .don't kncsf 
 
 that ,. Bryan w»8 f^r s-way- 
 
 Ofeairs-on ALL^.. I S2i sorry, but It cesae to us you are 
 g«ttlng r.*-thsr far asay fro® the subject.. 
 
 Mr. SSTMMSBMASK. It has a direct operation on tha ^rioe 
 of allk. 
 
 Ohairrsan AlXSN. T wlah the Obaafciseion alght do aoisethlng 
 about It, but it 18 outside of our province.. 
 
 Mr. ZTMUmmBM.. Well, *s ought to do eoicething about It 
 In He* ingland, here.. T {cno-* a tcaxx ^ho lost fifteen hundred 
 dollars la^t ysar awaking aillk , and prob^tbly more, on ao-iount of 
 the price of grain.. 
 
 «r. OrjsTOE.. Mr. ahalriEan, aa T tmderatand Mr.,Pattee'8 
 suggestion, hs ^ants you tc i^cdlfy the surplus olsusa in so^ce 
 aannsr ao as to provide in ths surplus plan for new dairies 
 that are tak^n on froa: tias to tlsee by the different contrac- 
 tors, and I undaretand th?.t he has had compiled for hla a state- 
 
feCi^sq 
 
 n^' 
 
 1- < -J : I? 
 
 ■fy\,^. ?>-■*■' 
 
 >.,:r;'3. 
 
 
»«nt Indicating +>© ni;n;ber of dairies tfeat have been atoppetl 
 and the nuabsr of dalrlee that fcav® been put on by the dif- 
 f erect contractors froa May 1, 15^18,. This etateffient has ;5ust 
 now been pressRtad to m»,. But there ie on© very significant 
 thing about it, an4 that is this, that, jritfc the oon<iitlon of 
 ths fluid Eilk supply in this alty in the latter part of October 
 and Sovesber, "nder alaost faffiine conditions, it. is vep^ evident 
 that the jsilk contractors did not take on enough dairies op 
 dalplas making anough Ellk.. The unscvstidnees cf trls propcsl- 
 tlon lies right hero.. Take the 0..?i?hitlng Sons for Instsr^cs,. 
 It is alleged that they have taken on since May 1, 1918, ^ ^nd 
 this ia obtained froze records of the secretary, iEo.de, T under- 
 stand, aa requlPsd by the OOfflariesicnjr-thpee hundred and ninety- 
 three dairies, stnd have stepped tfe'o hundred Bzifk seventy dsirise,. 
 There is absolutely no svidenee in existence C!Ow-T moon that 
 there is no evidence before this beard, and Mr. Pattee person- 
 ally has no c.vid9nce,-ae to whether the velu3re of irilk repre- 
 sented by those ti«> hundred and seventy dairies that ^fere 
 stopped iBore than eq^ialised ths volusa of iBilk obtained froru 
 the three hundred and ninety-three thst it claissed have been 
 put on,. Ta tfes naturaO. coarse cf events there are dalrle?^ stop- 
 ping every sonth, for reasons tfc'it art sntlrely ooll^tsral psr- 
 [haps to the allk business.. There is a change la dairies going 
 on all the tlse,. But, ae T conceive the basic ppinoiple of your 
 surplus clause, it Is based on the entire ind^istry,. All T can 
 aay about D,, Whiting and Sone in this respect is thle, that he 
 did not pijt on anough dairies to carry and supply our trade for 
 fluid fflllk xHider the conditions tfcat existed the latter pmrt cf 
 October and the first of SoviiEber,. The entire basis of the eur- 
 

 i i:.}!-;'; 
 
 -i ::: :r v if . 
 
 tt rsf:*- .^i::t ' ;; i 
 
 .>>a.' 
 
J.»J-C 
 
 plus olauee le the oarrj'lng of teilk sufficient to supply tbs 
 coraal trade -t tbe time of ths lowest production.. This efcowe 
 rlgfct m Iteelf tbe reason why you Bhould have ^ ^^^^^^^ clause. 
 Here is this grv^at big uroduotion, ftitii thic surplus you h^^ve 
 rsferenc^ to 
 
fi 
 
107 
 
 Which your secretary has an account of, a surplus of sometimya 
 perhaps 40 p^r cent. In Noviraber, with tho additional dairies 
 ha ia no-Af complaining: about, w3 could not get our normal amount 
 of lailK to supply part of the Octobjr and Novemoar business, 
 I don*t SS0 how — - 
 
 Mr. PA.TTES. Mr. Chairman, may I asV. 
 
 S. JiJ * 
 
 Gusic^ if hist will 
 
 Is-indly read the list clauoe xn hhi3 requyst? 
 
 Mr. GUSIOyi. I don*t Ynoit '*hat it m^ianc, and I h^ve raad 
 
 it. '^ '•■ ■■ ■ •" ■ " ■ -• ' ^^ 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. I dori*t thiiUi you have. You ara tal&ing 
 about the dj.iri«s previous to the last of Octooar and th«t month 
 of November, . . .f .. .■ , 
 
 Mr, OUSIO'. I am not talKing about .cJaxriea. 
 
 Mr. PATTiSE. This doi-o not raiuast ths Ooiiimission to ti&f.3 
 thosa dairies into consideration at all, but only those d^iiries 
 added since Mov-jmb'^'r 30, I aoubt if llr, Oueick undarstood that. 
 
 Mr. CUSIO'B;. Wall, you ar^ d-saling with a prinoipld, and 
 the principle is the saaae whether tha dairies wsra ta6t<»n on 
 bi^'fore or after Nov^mbsr oOth. But I have no doubt ttis dairies 
 tc£tiiin on since lyrovoimbr^r 30th — I don't "kcnow about this, but I 
 thirfe it is probably true,- w^ra aiaply t^en on in tha na.tural 
 oourss of businsso, and, that b-aing ao, vhat are you going to do 
 «sith those dairies? ■• ■ ■ • •• 
 
 Mr. 2IMMSRMAK. They otb all ^ibsorbad in th^ clxarse bactij:. 
 
 Mr. OUSIOK'. Shat would you do, .^r. Pat tee, ^ith those 
 dairies? 
 
 Mr. PATT23. It is provided in the second paragraph that 
 if a surplus arises oy rsaaon of adding Hw-w- dairies, the ciirpius 
 th-it BO arls-ss shall X)'j ohyrgod back to those dairies. 
 
 Mr* CUSICK. That is about as practical a thing ■ 
 
« 
 
 ,j^;i ^iyi^vV} t-s-W 'li 
 
 ,ai,.uJ' J;:^cd;. vofti^- c^'Ar':; i 
 
 ■a; .-■ V; J.- ...£.■..!.■■ •I. '- 
 
 ■le- 
 
 ■i." .^'v iv;i..- iu ■»?::<! f )*/•:;>■ .li;.fc i^ 
 
 ■•rf V- ■H> »- '* *•- ♦ 
 
108 
 
 Oomm. MOIR'RIS. Praotioally wiping out tha OorafBission's 
 prices ac to those dairias. 
 
 Hr, OUSIOK. Abaolubsly. 
 
 Mr» PATTSS. To the extent t>i3 dairi.i'3 pi-oviae a surplus, 
 and. your surplus plan itself ssrip-js out tha Ooiamisaion' s prices 
 to all the dairies in that case. 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. Ho. 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. ¥sli, shall th<2 pricas you award to the pres- 
 ent producers whose supr>ly is ne^dQd be wiped out or extin- 
 guished in whole or in part by tho daaler going out -md b-uying 
 dairies that ha did not naed? 
 
 OOfom, M01?"RIS. I want to sie if I gat your point, Mr. 
 Pattiis, if I understand it. If dairi-js hiv^^ bain taken on sines 
 Hov3aib5r 30, and that hxs creatM a sorplus to tha ^smount of 
 thosa dairies* then tnos© producers ??ill only giit out of their 
 milk just what it is good for, wliat it aaoxmts to for manufac- 
 turing, as surplus? 
 
 Mr. PATT3S. Yes, sir; and, to tha extent tjiat thoir silk 
 is nS'Sdsd, if th-.^ir milk is needed for the tnarket, and to raoke 
 up this sX dealers' carrying ac«>unt, to that extent thay get 
 paid the whole siilk pries. 
 
 Ooisja. MOi?'RIS. As a result, you would forc^j them basi: into 
 the creaa^ri^js, or 's/horsvsr they sold th«ir silk bafore? That 
 would b^ tha natural oons'i:iuence, wouldn't it? 
 
 Mr. PATTjvS. Tha conse-iuencc would ba that if a dealer 
 ^ould take on new dairi^js he would take thsm only subject to 
 a surplus charge b^ck if they created a surplus. It is not 
 asksd, you will undtsrstand, in this plan, that any restraint 
 b^ placsd at all on the purchase of n^« dairies, or on addition- 
 al bus in as a. 
 
.- ■■ -■ 1 . 
 
 •Vw. »^i«,- 
 
 •^^'.l.d-K .■■■ 
 
JLU^ 
 
 Comm* M0'r?113. If thgy want to sand tfielr laiiic into Boston 
 and have it manuf acturad, amd tak^ the manixf aoturer'8 prices, 
 they iire at liberty to do it? 
 
 Mr, PATTSIiS. And taks the chance, perhaps, of taking the 
 wliole bi.-i.» 
 
 Ur» ¥• ?• OQGS,, Mr. Chairman, my nrnt^ is M. ?. Cook, 
 
 or Mt» Holly, Yerjaont. In my section of Y&rs^nt — I aia oa-i of 
 the back- to- ths -landers — th^re xs a very considgi'abie laac- 
 ation of the cows in i'ebruaury and in March. Now, take the case 
 of a daaler who drew a supply of inilk from our section, 3jid who 
 lias not, had occasion to taka on a dairy since T'Tovembor 30, but 
 the dairies increase over their normal production, and with the 
 saiae hards they ware getting 40X sore niilk than now? What 
 wo'old bs t}iB pocition of a dealer wh^^rd h3 has taken on no naw 
 dairies since !>rove®bsrr 30th? Would hs be obliged to take all 
 of that 40X increase? ... 
 
 ar. PATTSS. Is the ^sntlesaan addressing hie luiistion 
 to me? 
 
 2Ir. COOE. I ma asking for information. 
 
 Chairman ALL3H. You raight answer t'm question, if you 
 wish, Mr« Pattss. 
 
 Mr* PATTiSE. The chiin^s aug^sstad hsre do-as not involve 
 any chants at all in r^igviird to that x-an charging biiOk his sur- 
 plus to his old ^oducars* If tb^i surplxis arises through tiie 
 production of fona^r producers. At will be charged back as im- 
 fora. If it arises through the addition of new dairies, then 
 those nsft- dairies, to ths ^^xtant that they mads it, would bear. 
 In othor words, from the whola surplus, b=if or 3 it ^as cn^orgad 
 haok to ths producer, lisould be taken the production of nov/ 
 dairies. 
 
O'jrf^ ^ -i •! »,*'-::. ii-f^ii'XVZ^ ^ 
 
 >>.' ^ t t.\ ■ 
 
Chainsan ALL3W. Is that clear, ^r. Ousick? 
 
 jJr. CUSIOK. 7^ry claar, but I would like to aak Mr, 
 Pat tee tiiis: Who ara the fonnsr produceirs? Tiioew producers ara 
 chansing svsry aontii, 
 
 Mr. PATTJiS. As of STovsabar 30 th, 
 
 Mr. QUSlcai. But thay will change during D^caabar, and 
 througii Januiry, i'sbruatry and March. That is tha norsu^ condi- 
 tion of tilings, the normal shaagcs indicatsd h^rs by the figures 
 generally. The thing is not so fixtsd that -a^ have ths saa© 
 dairiss supplying us today tha^ v7S will probably hav& a month 
 from toaay. Borae adll drop out and. soae will soma in. 2vOw, 
 your siarplus ehargts pfovid'^s for just thoae conditions « It 
 rsquirss us, I thlnls., to notiiTy the Board wh-jnevar *e take on 
 new dairies or drop otiiisre. Z'h.^ ajcaot langua-e is not a^^l'^© 
 definite in ssy mind, but I knov^ t.hsrs is a clause in the svir- 
 plue provision that re^^ates juat such things as wa ars talk- 
 ing about non, 
 
 Ghairman ALL7JS* This sounds to m*3 lUto a xmion :amons ^^^ 
 miilc producers. 
 
 Mr* CU^i^:. Oh, it is worca than that. Ho,v, this s'orplus 
 matter is provid^sd for in ^he arran^ea^nt already existing. 
 Ta^e tha Whltins business, for instance. They havs probably 
 sent word to your Administrator during the pariod rsfarrad to 
 h«rs, from July lat. The thing is fi-xsd up with your S59- 
 retary. They have? givsn the rsiison why they wanted to drop 
 270 dairic^s and take on 393. You knew all about that ana it 
 was satisfactory to the OoBsaission at tbjit tiaa. That doos 
 not, ho'^avsr, increase th,; volume of milJc availablv; for us to 
 tice here as fluid rruUc when wa ^ant it. That is the situ- 
 ation, and that i^. whore the unsonndnaes of this thing coasa in. 
 
V. ' ^'-.^'s^j-iv •?u>d.:.' 'y?J« 
 
 i,.-:,,E. ' i^--i'j'- f-. 
 
Oiiairman ALVSYi, As I imderstand it, 'Ar* Pattas grants to 
 take ¥.0V3mbar 30 as of the list of d'^aiers furnishing milk to 
 tha dealer©, and call that a closed list, and that any lairiss 
 taksn altar tiiat will jiava to stand the surplus, if thare is one- 
 That is, th:ire will ba a preference tn«re, 
 
 :i.r, CUSIC3K. Can the aoiamission do that? 
 
 OhJ.i.rmm /iL_-:¥. Tha rii»gular surplus plJJi only pro-ratssd 
 back to the producer what hs h-id bean ch-irgsd with, in sonnac- 
 tion with tha surplus. It dia not a^e a pr^^firr inca as batween 
 the oldar and new-^r produo-^rs, diu not practically put tj-ie bur- 
 den on ths fellow who cams in as a na'* producer of getting a 
 less price than a producer who was on ths list Hovi'm&sr 30. 
 
 Hr. PATTSS. I ^a going to ask, in all gooa faith, viiiy the 
 ffltai who comes into this aarkst sna craatas a surplus shoiiid not 
 bear it to the ©xtent that ha crsati^^s it xn this aarki^t, rather 
 than paissing it along onto thosa vifh.o do not er!*ut«i it? 
 
 Ohair/SJH ALL;:'M» As I understand it, tiae answsr of the 
 other sid« is this: In the noriaal course of o-jsin.sc tii^y have 
 to go out and get outside business. 
 
 Mr^ PATTiiS* Yas, -And to th<^ extent that thity ne-^d those 
 dairiss, there is no g-jrplus to cJiargQ to anybody. 
 
 Oomm» BI"RiK Suppose th-3 Hood Oompanj lost 20 of its pro- 
 ducers in the- month of Decesbdr - — 
 
 Comau MUBi303K. Or suppog-is t:n<3y wsnt out of business. 
 
 Cosun. BII?D. Yes, or Guppos«( they ¥*v--nt out of business, ;ind 
 
 ths Hood Goajpany should toks on 20 otiicir producers to fill tlioir 
 
 placvis. Your idaa is that thos« na» product^rs should bear the 
 
 burden of th^^ Bood Cornp;*ny*s surplus mora than anybody elsa» 5Jow 
 
 in that Cisa tnat is not due to any ovisrloading on th3 part of 
 
 ths I'ood Gompany. 
 
 Ooasa. MO!?^IS. I don't think you quits got Uv» Patta^'s 
 point. As I understand it, if th-jrcj is a surplus of ailk oris- 
 

 f t ■_ 
 
112 
 
 ing firoBJ ths producers alr<5ady on th# list, or that ware on th® 
 list «p to tho 30th of IJoverabsr, they will baar that surijlus* 
 as they have been baaring it. 
 
 S2r. PATT3E. Yss. 
 
 Oomm, 5£0'H!?IS. Than, in addition to that, if thara is a 
 further surplus crsat'sd by parties takan on sino_' thsit dsita, 
 they "soul'i only get the surplus pries for all the milk going 
 to m:i3c© up that surplus? 
 
 Mr. PATTYS. Yee, Thay war^ not needed, 3ir. Ohairman, aa 
 producers of raiUc for this month. Theyv«ars token on by the 
 dealer in accordance with his judgment, or raprasentations that 
 th«y could get hi^-;*r pricaa for their milic, and thfsy turned 
 it into this market, and then the previous producera ar«i asked 
 to baar a part of the loos whioh is suff.--'rQd beociuse of tha 
 dealer talcing on dairies ishish ha did not njad. 
 
 Comm. MlTRIXi'^IK. Your point is that this tt;nds to bring 
 into thia market sjilk that ??ould not normally come into this 
 Har.ket? 
 
 S2r» PAITKE. It certainly dosg, and it opans itself to 
 this objection. I am not citing this as a sp-^cific case, but 
 am giving it hypo that ically. 
 
 Er» OOOK. We will accept it. 
 
 Mr. PATTBIil. A daaler operating alongsidi of or in the 
 neighborhood of a oreajB-iry section aiay, xmlQT ths present plan 
 ssithout aaaandraant, tap th.it creamery section, solicit from m-n 
 ssndins railk to that creaaasry some of the best dairies, and 
 in that v?ay, without ronioving a large ^xioiint of milk, laay so 
 cripple that creamery ac to put it out of business. If hs 
 suffers any loas froia taking on too much milk, ho can apportion 
 It among aiil hie? proiucc-rs. He do.28 not ne.id to suffer any loss 
 
3 JU ■'' i i 
 
 -? T:' 
 
 ^<::^t "i: «j 
 
 ■hiZ ,.,^-:,.£:. 
 
 
XX3 
 
 himself. He may apportion it aaong all the ^rsen whose supply 
 previous to his doing tiiis was adequate to his ne-ads, as far as 
 the market was concamed. 
 
 wOiom. i4Ul?D00K. I suppose that might possibly ba modifisiid, 
 so that dealers aight take on n^ft producers in place of thosa 
 ■whom thsy had lost? 
 
 Mr. PATT5S. Perhaps you can phrase that in a. different 
 way» indicating that more spacifieally, but I think it is cover- 
 ed in triis provision, that if any part of the milk aade by the 
 naw dairies taken on is ne^idsd to make up the trade surplus, 
 the sales of the do^aiers reiuired to carry that part of it shsill 
 be considered whole milk and paid for as such. • 
 
 0oBi2s» C*ILARS. What encouragement would tliere be for any 
 man ^o go into \h& business of producing milk if your suggestion 
 were adopted? 
 
 Mr. PATTK3. What do you m^an? 
 
 Oomm. O'HARS. What inducement would there be to any citi- 
 sen who Aantel to go onto a farm and produce aiilk. If your sug- 
 gestion was adopted? 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. I do not know, i;r. Oommissionar, exactly what 
 you are driving at. The market price of his milk is d^ ■.&rmi.n^d 
 by these conditions. 
 
 Ooara, O'HARii. iSfeli, put it tJaa other -A-ay, If your sug- 
 gestions Vf-yre adopted, would it discourage the production of 
 milk by new dai.ri;;a or naw farmers? 
 
 Mr, PATT5J2. I t^iink not, most decidedly. It would cer- 
 tainly encourage, mistily encourage, the production of milk by 
 the dairies already making milk, because they would realize 
 that they *ere not to be ohar?«d »ith a loss made by taking on 
 new dairies that -Asre not necessary. 
 
 Comm. O'HARS. And it would have a tendency to traeze the 
 
"■!-:r^? i; 
 
 .".f K.LiJ' 
 
 Iv^A-J^^- 
 
 *, ^ ■(,■ 
 
 ■;'fMi "'Xii ■;.;;';€- ':i7'0'> isj^?. ;t^ 
 
 t - .-■•'". :' ■'7''; ''*■'■ ' '■■ 
 •' •■ » -"-^ - 
 
114 
 Other fellos. out? 
 
 2Sr. PAtTSS. I don*t see it. To tha extent that that mlUc 
 is nocessary in connection with the supply, it is providod that 
 he shall get tiie ahois milk price. 
 
 Coaisasaioner 0*iiAl^. Qan you exxiiain ho* ha could coiiae in 
 and obtain the saijj© treafeaent and enootira^^adnt as the otli«r 
 fallow? 
 
 Sr. PATTSS* If the laark^t would absorb his silk, he would 
 gyt th3 whole milk price for it. If i t didn't, presiimably he 
 would g-3t tha saae price tliat hs ie ^tzing now for it, 
 
 Coaan. O'HAPS. If you wer« starting in as a farmer and had 
 to b3 treats as you suggest no*, vna^r your eugigestion, how 
 long do you thinX you would produce miUc? 
 
 Kr, PATT-SS* let ae ana^'sr th^at tiie oth-sr s^ay to, 
 
 Gofaas, O'KABE. !p3l£ing all tiia chances that a nss aan wo-old 
 have *o tak.'d? 
 
 Mr, F-^TTB-S., I would not cay tiait it would affact the 
 present dairy situation i-n fJhs Isast. Thert* isroiild be no a^n 
 vihc aould go out of producing millt vmo is ViOa in it, under this 
 plan, whose milk vas not brou^t in here, but xaany nen have 
 seriously contampl-uted ^ing out, arHJ hav3 actually gone out, 
 and tiisrs is aliaogt, a state of rsbsllion i.n the sin/^a of pro- 
 ducers already imking milk for this aarjc^it, bscausa of the fact 
 that tha daaisrs ara allowsd, with an increasing supply, to ^o 
 out and add naw dairies and charge bick the surplus to thoss 
 dairiijs thsy have iilraady had, to r.hs nifji that did not make it. 
 
 Chairman ALLiSlT. Don't the figuroa sho>, although this 
 has Dean going on for two or thrse months, ^as ffur ae th© '«hole 
 silk soli or usod is concornsd, tnat they did not buy aoro zailk 
 than they naided for th^ normal rxm of tha business? What do 
 thosi. figures show? 
 
'CX-i-A^C Oi 
 
 r.~ > n 
 
 ■ .X^.k' 
 
 ■ •■' -5 rr /. 'K 
 
 
115 
 
 Mr. PATTEE. A very smaOJ. surplus in the month of Novismber. 
 
 Ciiairman KLL2^» It seems to ma vshat you are oonsidaring 
 now is going b ck to the condition of aff aijrs l>afory the sur- 
 plus plan was adopted. Unless you can put your finger on soma 
 real unfairness, it sa-'mo to 31Q the Oommission ought not to take 
 ttrao to 50 into this matter in all this detail again, because 
 the surplus plan wao thi'sshed ov^ir, and it viois pasnad ai'tur 
 considarition to the point you are now bringing up, ilofe, what 
 producers have b^on hurt by the surplus pl'in, or ^uliere iiis it 
 hurt the producers? 
 
 Ur. PATTEB. I sup^^ose you want specific inl'ormAt.j.-^n? 
 
 OhairQan ALDilH. You ire xaaking suggest ions which woxild 
 re.iliy change the basic idea of th^ surplus plan, and '»v0 want 
 to get at the r-'aaons for that, • '. • 
 
 Mr. PA'PTES. I cannot see wherein this really changes tha 
 basic idea* As I understand the o'orplus plan, it ckargtrd the 
 losn arising from the siirplus to the xaan who created it. 
 
 Chaircian AUxiiM, Inhorsntly, yas. 
 
 Mr, PATTSiv. llow, tiie-n, if tia dealers go out and solicit 
 and actually engage Siilk froa n-aw dairies, whacia milk creates 
 a surpltis, then th^j na^ dairias to thd iixlant that they create 
 that surplus should bear it. That is all we? asic. ■ ■ 
 
 Ohairmaa ALLJJI. Has it worked out io xhe disadvantage 
 of tJ-ie others? 
 
 Mr, PATTSE. Yes, to thsir disadvantage. 
 
 Chairman ALLIaN. The figures seam to saovs that ths d:ialer8 
 did not ov^r-buy. , . , . 
 
 'Mt', PAT'iSS. Is that a fair assumption? 
 
 Mr, OUSiaK. It is tha truth; it is not an assumption. 
 
 Mr. ?ATT3ii. Mt^ than that, th« adoption of ttUe plan 
 would not in any way penalize or handicap the* njw dairies to 
 

 ■<\'- .^^x'.. 
 
 -", . ^-t. 
 
 :■(• ^-s. 
 
116 
 
 the extent that their milk was needed. 
 
 Mr. WKITISa. fc'oxiid i.{r. Pattae's objection &^3 set if that 
 wars iiiaited to new territory or ext^jnsion of routes into naw 
 tonritoriso from ticic to tioje? 
 
 Cyh-ilrcian ALLIIN. If it were siiaply a aiatter of chimging 
 the numbjr of producers to a giv«n ddoier, to maintain tlie nor- 
 mal buainues, I don't undt;rstand that iir. Patteii would obj;jCt 
 to that, b«5Cau8« that com^s along in the nonaal coursa of 
 events. 
 
 Mr. SKITING. I undsrst-ind that, he did liait the.- list of 
 
 dairies to those selling ITovsmber *iOth. 
 
 not 
 
 ^r. PATTSE. Perhaps Hr. Vihiting .has >;-j«rd this r,.ad, but 
 
 it provides, in the; cjisq of a surplus arising in tiiis v»ay, 
 that froffi *>at surplus shall be tiik^n t'n.& amount of ssllX pro- 
 duced by new dairies bsfora thtsrs is a charge b&ck on th.i old 
 dairies. - — :■-.-. ■■■^ ■;■,. ■• 
 
 Mr. WHITIHG. What, in your siind, constitutes a nev* dairy? 
 The 8.ilir of a i*ana from John Jones to ?obart Fmith,- is that a 
 naw dairy? Of ooursa, that means a change on ths dairy list, 
 but it IS not rsally a n^w dairy, is it? It do-sn't produce 
 mora rsilk. Wow, this very list submitted to Dr. Gilbs^rt gives 
 just those transactions, whers th-^rs are sales, whercs a faria 
 'may go from father to son, whare there is siasply a ch.^n-;^ of 
 n-iffla, but where the dairy does not chan^^ie, and where the voiuae 
 of railk doss not change. Or dairi^js ars changinr; from craaa 
 j to milk or from tr.il^ back to crisia* Thora is th^ same volums 
 of dairy product eocsing to tha market, however. I thought ISr, 
 Pattee ciight hiVd' in ijiind p->rhaps tha iiiaitation or ioking on 
 of nsw territory, or extensi'">n of territory of oxioting routes. 
 Of course, there will bci j. surplus of milk beginning Januiiry 
 
'i,fC N-' 
 
 'amn 
 
 :i '^^fljg-eni/ -^x '■'^i-^ 
 
 V -^ ^^ -*■ ■ js \ ■ 
 
 t -■ ■■ - '>'. 
 
 ;. i' .•:ni>- 
 
 .i\i. i. 
 
 
 
 i. •■" ■ .i 
 
 € 
 
JUL5f 
 
 ist, or an ovv^^r-aupply of milk, and tliti prudent dealer isoiiid 
 not tike on r^xtra xtiiil-v, I should think, in vlsw of sxistinc: 
 condition©. 
 
 Oiiainaan ALUiN. i would like to litik any tiiw dsolors ahoiiid 
 go out 'jnd buy n-jors ailk than ha wants at a certain period — 
 couldn't it O'j Tor turning it into biii;.ar, or what is tiiu ;id- 
 vantage of tailing on mor.3 milk? 
 
 Mr, ?A7TS£. !fo, sir. We find tJiat the>r=j ar<s these applica- 
 tions now from time to time, ana tl'itsr'j? is rhio cor.aition that 
 confronts us, ^nd it rsaets en us. 
 
 Ohairavin aLLJLV. ^Iiat do you fear,- tliav. thoy will do that? 
 
 Mr. PATTxi'^. Well, thd thing has b-an i-'Ut up to us, aa I 
 have stated. 
 
 Chaxnnan ALLK¥. Your foar is xor thd futuris? 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. We have sufforsci in tha paet. 
 
 Ohairaan ALL2N* Since this sxirplue plan went into dfxact? 
 
 Mr. PA7TE:2. I would suggest that it >»as only apparently 
 at tha Vr^ry aarnast aolicitaticn — or i -^fould r^sciaa i^iO word 
 "apparently" -- of this organization that za-^m f. as no such 
 surplus charge-back allow-jd during thw istonth ol iov^mbxir, 
 
 Ohairm^'an ALLi.H, Because tiisre siisn* t a.ny surplus, »>-43.s 
 thara ? 
 
 Mr, PATT2S. If I rarsamb^jr correctly, thw claim was ma4.s 
 that thsra viiis a surplus at that time. 
 
 Ohairajan ALLIIJ. Vary s.-aali? 
 
 SfcT. PATTi:::^. vas. 
 
 OoffliB. BI'HD. Mr. Pattee, you fe^jl that you havvj b^-m hur-t 
 by this? 
 
 Air, PATTB3. Absolutely. 
 
 Goam, BIM>. Kave you analyzed theS'S figures carafuliy'* 
 
 Mr. ?A?r.t2. I don't knovt what r^u call "carefully", but 
 
3 
 
 I have glvsn thsm sose study,. 
 
 C6ffiiB, BIRD. Kow xMoh fluctuation do ycu figure that tksre 
 would Bopsallj' bs through dairies leaving? dealere, going out cf 
 business, or through ehecgee in the usual oourse of huelnese s- 
 
 ttccg thees different dealsrer What pero-sctags do ^cu thick would 
 be fair?'" i 
 
 Mr. PATTKg. Ghaoging frcjce dealer to d«el8P? 
 COasE. .BTBD, Yes Bir, brought about b> the dlairies thesE— 
 eslvse, either b^oe-uee of the dalriee charging or «oing out of 
 business, selling out, soarething of the kind, -what would you fig- 
 ure was the reacocsble percentage of fiuctvisticn? 
 
 Mp.-PATT^. T would net answer thet question, offhandj- , 
 
 ver^ little shifting froie dealer to dealer,. 
 
 Coaas, BIFD. Anal^r^ing this, you sse that the Aldsn Broth- 
 ers h^y® t?o y^0m-t lese dalriee now than they hsd in MayT 
 Mr. F^TTES. Yee,, 
 
 Oosjaj. EIBC . Taking the -iiiffarenoe beti^ee-E those tatken on 
 and thos» thst they left ofr, they now havt> t#o perot^nt Isesr 
 Mr. PATTSE. Yes. . 
 
 Ooij?nc. BIRD. The Whiting OosEpany shOisre nine percent asore, 
 the O.-Bpighaa Company show© fourteen percent aope, ^nd the Sla: 
 Far® OojBteny esven percent lees, fpoffi the fir©t cf May.. 
 ISr..PATTEE. Yes.. 
 
 0OE3?.,ETPQ, Just hear thst *'oald ail o,ve?#.ge in voluae T 
 den't knoi^. 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. ^-sy T suggest, M?. CojriBt&Pionsr, that that is 
 not reslly pertinent. It seesis to ae, to the j. ropcsitlon,. These 
 dalriee -^ere needed to realntalri tbe supfly, a jsran's buslnese 
 aight grow and he alght be f srfeotly Justified In tftklng on 
 
t !■- ~. 
 
 
 rr n?-^^ 
 
 T- , . •-- •■ ' 
 
 ■ j .' V J 1 ; 
 
 ;ii '^.c 
 
new dairies, either to replace those lost, to mast greater 
 necassitiee, or for any other r.^ason* and to tha sxtsnt that 
 he does that there is no loss to charts baok to ths produc- 
 ei's. But if h© goas out .and takss on dairies that hs does 
 not ne3d» then aithtir h& or they should bear the loss by 
 reason of Ms doin;^ so. The other rr:an had nothing to do with 
 it; it -was something bvyond his aontrol, and ha seriously 
 objects to a d^al^jr going out ;md buying, on his own bast 
 possible jud@aent but fals^i jud^m^nt, product that he does 
 not need, and than protecting hisisalf entiri'ly by charsing 
 It back on to those dairies V:m.t h& did n^ed* 
 
 CosRj* 3mD. Wall, porsonally, aa Oonyalsaioner, I huve 
 a groat dtial of sympathy »ith what you are trying to do. 
 You ors trying to protsot yourseivee froja i^iid buying on the 
 part nf tha dealar? 
 

 
 'A 
 
117 
 
 ist, or an ov«r-8upply of rnilk. 
 
 Iff. PATTSS. Yec, sir'. 
 
 Gosim. BIHD. On tha other h;arKl» I don't se© how your resjedy 
 is applicable, capable of being actually #orketi out, it. is your 
 remedy that troubles me !Sor-e t:;an ycur --- 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. Disease. 
 
 Coam. BIRD. Disease. I .Tiaan, tnat I agree with you that 
 th'srs is a poaaibility of tri.-} disease, but -xh&'Jnor your rz-medy 
 is going to be so cuisbersciae that it v/ili oa irapossibie to asork 
 tho thin;^ out, ic rather a question in my aiini. 
 
 Mr. PATTES. I ao not b-^lieve that after r-jasonabia study 
 th£5 Oommissionar would find it impossible, and I do think triat 
 he wo\ild finj it officaoious- 
 
 Mr. OOOK. Mr. Ghairsjin, thia discusaion i3 just tha aaiaa 
 kind of discussion in regard to proiucts as aigiit bs imd in re- 
 gard to tho production of boots, isire, or i^ny oih^r caaaaaroiai 
 product — commodity. Tha product that you wijih to sarktst de- 
 pends entlraly on periods of laxation of ths cav.s. 1 sm & baoic- 
 to- the -lander, in 1904 starting a cr.^aBiery at Mt. Holly, Ye raont. 
 I marketed iny onn product ana tJion went on incrt^aeiffig until I 
 got a fairly extsnsiva products But thc-'rs would c^ tia^s in 
 that country, in tha territory frois which I drew say supply ©x- 
 clusiveiy, when thars »ovld be 55 units of distribution par day, 
 and than, in that stme a.r&3., 55 units of distribution per 'fte^k, 
 Thsre would bs, for instance, a faain« in Novwabisr and :)ac'3mber 
 and In :%y ana June, it was a nightaare, ovifing to ov-r-suppiy. 
 And this was th« situation wiili &v-bry othar d'isX&r that I cacjs? 
 in contact with. 
 
 Chairman AlIJvN. You aru supporting tho de-alaro* stand- 
 point? 
 
 Mr. GOOK. Wall, ay position is .-ror^ a rj&nerrii one, bd- 
 
 bauB2 I have bsen a dealer anci aiao a producer. 
 
i 
 
 
 
 ■! .,. N-N-'V 
 
XJ.O 
 
 Chairman ALUSU. Pardon la©. Ara you ct>ttaking for tiitt 
 Pat Ids; resolution or against it? 
 
 Mr. GOCi:, JTo. I am ©sing to speak Tor and agsiinat it 
 before I get dons. ?Jo*i, ilr* Pat tee, if he kmows any tiling about 
 the production or milk, knows that ¥ov«inb-.ir a-nd BaCc-aber art* 
 the fsuiaiae montJis. May una June ara the Taast aontha, and 
 evei-y other montli is either a Taast or a f anjins , jroK, the 
 daal'.rr has always boun obiig-dd to provide for hiia3t.lf in June 
 such a quantity as would tik^ Cvuro of hia In i/ovembar and 
 Dec^aaber, and take :;are of tho surplus, and xintil sO-. P&ttee's 
 clients will bid for a mora gquitabia production I think sia is 
 going to have troubiy with his surplus, and if 2r, Pattss is 
 setting up an artificial standard without talcing into consider- 
 ation th<5 p-^^ciiliaritiijs of the farxater and his cowa, thers wHl 
 bii trouble. 
 
 Ohairaan ALL-SfT. TaB Ooiami scion his discus sad that si gs-aat 
 many I iaca . 
 
 Mr. COOK.. In some; raspects lir. ?attas is right, only if 
 he knows anything about jaarkatiag he knows that many of t.iioae 
 present patrons taken on aftyr the SOth of Movssabar are taksa 
 on at a bonus. You know that, do you not? 
 
 Mr, PAT7SE. I wouldn't like to state that, 
 
 Mr. OOQK. As a aiattar of cold fact, -Kh^n vii ar-3 atung jre 
 win go out and buy ffiilk at any prisa at which \^i can got. it, 
 temporarily. Thoas dairies taken on aftor the 40 th of liovm- 
 ber are tsdcen on tt^inporarily, and in ^lany inst^^nc^s they are 
 paid hy the dealers a hi^jh-irr price tlran th^jir constant yoar- 
 round producers. Tiiat is a condition that obtains in wy sec- 
 tion, and ie in exiotence th-^iru today. Bight at th-a self sasie 
 station one .'Ban will by selling his milk at one pries, because 
 th« dealer takes his ailk 365 days xn th-i ye^ar, if he has it. 
 
^^OR. ., V- 
 
 
 • *- I "- J. 
 
 ■'. : :: '■•■ 
 
 ..Ye s 
 
OJLV 
 
 but if he do«ssn*t have it six or eight %@ak8, mian h3 is short 
 in th«j faains aeason of Tlovamber and Decambar, the di'alar goss 
 up t/iere and goog to th9 peepis who have got it and simply con- 
 tracts to get ©nou^ jaiUc to hold his trads, b'ica^uss ha is 
 coasnittad to hia custosi*;re for 365 days in the viiQT, and he 
 g«»te it trcm eoma souroe, if he can, ar»j:y i>aok in thi hiils. 
 
 'Jhalrmim ALIJ5M. Ars you fasiiliar ^ith r.he surplus plan 
 under which ws ara working? 
 
 Mr. OOCSli. Somewhat « 
 
 Chairsian ALLSU. What sxi^gestion would you hivsre, in line 
 with Mr« PattQt3*s, to put Isot'ora tha Ooaimioaion ^e to haaidiing 
 this? 
 
 Mr» OOOK. I don*t knois tjiat I srould hava ajay guggsstion. 
 I am not personally intersstsd either in th^ produc^sr or the 
 consusier. 
 
 Dhairaan ALt..^^l. fell, you know that a g«sndral srorking 
 surplus plan ie new put into force? 
 
 Mr. OOOK* I don't kno^ about it intisiately, becaus^i ths 
 Ooasstission did not ooiaa into existsnce until aftar I got out 
 of the business, and I onlj' have a knowl^dQe in the sost g-^naral 
 way* I hava n^v^r disousaad it speciTic^iily. But I do knov 
 about those points ~ tfia point of production, ajid the fact 
 that ths temporary dairy often gets a higher pries. 
 
 Oosjsu M012??IS. You don't mean to say that sinotf the Qoa- 
 aiesicn amm into fores eoras aairiee have be-ira gst-'-ing a high«ir 
 prica tJian otjiars? 
 
 Mr. OOOC* Certainly 1 do. 
 
 Oosaa, JiIORBIS. Sailing: to thi Boston saarkdt? 
 
 »r« OCOI?:. Selling milk which ia shlppad to tha Boston 
 aaj^fe t • 
 
 OoajBft. M01R1US. What avidence have you of that? 
 
' ^-'.'Vx'i. 'Z ■"■ -*•' "** '^' X <'.'-' '^•'i'-' 
 
 
iSTm OOOK. Well, the known iooal price. I auLeso know soms 
 people «lio are taking less. 
 
 Ooasi. SIORTflS. Oan you cits soma of thoss instances, glva 
 names? 
 
 Mr» GfOC^. I shouldn't care to do that. 
 
 Goaun. MOB"RIS. You know who they are selling to? 
 
 ^r. OOOK.. I don't know that I would care to say that. I 
 sUB not hera to get anybody in trouble. 
 
 Oomrn. MOTfRIS. I know, but you are trying to givs the 
 Oomzaiscion some information* ona the Goxaaission is looking ior 
 infonaation. 
 
 Sr. OQCM.. Well, I don* t think it is a fair proposition 
 to :isk m^ publicly to say what a friend of laine possibly is 
 doing. Thero are a gr^at majoy tjriings thitt tisae OommtB&xon has 
 not authorised that are being done by both sides. 
 
 Chairman ALLEH. In otli®r words, you don*t iik^ to give 
 a^ay a good thing liks that? 
 
 Mr. OOOK. Why, it is no good thing to ws* But thoss are 
 conditions that do exist. 
 
 Ghaina^i ALLiiK. Well, the Cosimission only establishes a 
 ainiaua prise. Tne t:urm^r csn get a higher price than that 
 estahiisV^d by the OoREuission. We cannot and don*t want to 
 stop that, if h-3 oan do it» : , 
 
 Mr. OOOiU Well, fluoh a san as I hive referred to, taken 
 oa temporarily, ia asrely a surplus mon for the dealer, h^ is 
 likely to b« dropped any day. 
 
 Mr, EIMMEBMAK. I ^ouid liks to back up tlrie guntlS2aan*8 
 stateisent. At tiiaes one mm will be piid a o^nt or t'«*o more, 
 a good mm, for laiik. I don*t know tnat the Goaanission hiS any 
 powe'r Gvsr the State of Vermont, whether it has po«>.3r to t^ike 
 action in regard to a thing lxks» that, but I will tell you 
 
.■Sff , 
 
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 ^o ,;. • -. v y... iT;,^ til. ;. .c v^y _ ru: 
 
 
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 ;. C^- '. ■••' I 
 
another thing. Tha only way to g©t rid of the surplus and ra- 
 duoe th& priovi o£ milk io to g-it tiis people to buy more siillt, 
 to consigns aora mlXk< Tliat is the risiit ^ay to do it. felaere 
 t}:ey are taking a pint, gat tham to take t^yo; whssre thsy jire 
 taking a ^uart, gut them to take two. Therti is tho gaa©. If 
 you set th9 pric^ too hl^, it causes ti^ consximiir to sXack 
 off, at the otiior end. The only way is to find the aaai'gin bis- 
 t«»tjan what you would call th<i overhead cost, b^twesin the price 
 the farmer gate and what the contractor g:;t8, and then place 
 your price accordingly, ^'or instance, if the ovarh^ad figure 
 is 3 cnts, and tho f ura^r gets 9 c-^nts, 9 Q.nl 3 would ba 12. 
 
 Shairssan ALLSJT. That is what w© a^re trying to do. 
 
 Mr. ZIlfeSBiSAH. Sow, tha price is IG-l/^ c^nts. Wouldn't 
 it bs better to settle the surplus at about 15 cents, say, in 
 tha stasBiJ^r sionths, and let tha consumer get Gis bsnafit of it? 
 I hiv^n*t the figvurea so as to know what tha contractor iaokas. 
 I don't know that. But we do knos what the cost prlci* of UiQ 
 milk is. That is what we do know for a f ict. 
 
 Mr, PATTSiil. Might I suggest to th^ Cossaission, inasmuch 
 18 this 3G-3ffi8 to b« z*ather a startling proposal, that it giva 
 some study to the mattar, axid possibly, bafor© isaking a i;:2Cis- 
 ion on it, givs a furthsropporttmity to be heard? 
 
 Ohairman AliS^t. If th*r# is no obj«iCtion, tha suggw'Stion 
 )3y Ut* Pattee will bs takan up by tha Sxecutiv-3 Co^Blttse, 
 
 Mr» OUSIOK. If that is ao, sa '^ant to bi notified arhen 
 they take it up. Wo don't .vaot too xaany tilings taksm up that 
 we know nothing about* 
 
 Goasa. aOSBIS. If the CSidirraaa doas not object, I would 
 liK^ to haar what tha arguaients ara. 
 
 Ohainaan ALLEM. All ri,2ht, than. It will not hs r^ferrad 
 to th« SxQCutlva Oojamltt^e. fe'e will hear it now. 
 
.*i.- \ 
 
 
 f-i. :•* 
 
 1:=:.: 
 
 :■ .'-iv: iu.: 
 
 ■;'i.- V: ,. .;i : 'j' J* 
 
122 
 
 Mr. OUSICjr* Mr. Ohainaan, you have now in your surplus 
 olause tha very provision that ha wants. You havd threchad 
 out this wild-buyin.?j proposition for days ar.ddays fe'isfora you 
 ©s^'.ablished your nurplus clause. At tlrat time you ordered us 
 to givs you thy number of dairies that we v»ere purahasing froa 
 up to a certain tiiae. We nare then diractsd, whsn wa took a 
 new one on, to coac to your secrstary and give hla the reason 
 why. At that tim«, Uiat s."3.s the bDst i?fay the OosBmiseion could 
 find to handle th« thing. It is? now the bast ^^ay. If it isiil 
 halp Mr. Pattae or anybody elss out, if you «ant tha list of 
 dairies up to Jan^iiry 1st, wa can furnish it, and than >xft<sr 
 January let, during the- three rrsntha ensuing, *e can inform you 
 of avery dairy '«.^ take on. If jou direct us not to take it on, 
 ^3 cannot, I suppose. That was your theory of the siirplus 
 clause; that was thd be-st rea^dy you could sugg^est. It is the 
 only remedy, on atccount of ths business. You hav- to d^tarmine 
 at the tiiaa th<s ohans© is raade ^-hetjisr we, in taking that on, 
 are indulging in wild-buying, or ars taking it on because «s 
 used it. 
 
 Ohainaan ALLS". Or because you are foolish. 
 
 Hr. DUSICE. Or basaus© ^=3 are foolioh. You have to de- 
 terraina it at that tims, and yau osai than t-Jli us to take it 
 or not, as you like, Tnat is ths way you haivs been handling 
 it under the surplus clause,- and doesn't it provide exactly 
 for what Mr* Pattsa ?srants, except that p^rhups ho asay maan that 
 he af-ants a nevv raadjustxasnt of ctairie)s up to the- presant time. 
 Ho says up to Fovombor 30. If you want a rsadjustmc-nt of 
 dairies, let ths contractors notify you up to January 1st. That 
 gives thea a ch^wcts to r<^ndw their scale in purchasing for threi^ 
 months, adding to or tsOcin^ from shat they thinlc thay %ill nasd 
 for th'i n-^xt thro«j laonths. Thsn, -if tar January Ist they will 
 
; ti.:- 
 
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J.23 
 
 notify you of evsry nasr daiJTr tiiay taka on, and if you aa^ ail 
 right, «e wiii io ao, and if not we will not; th^t la all, 
 
 Ootam* MOBBIS. There is nothing in jkr, Pattae'o proposi- 
 tion that is iik:3ly to hurt the dieaiers any, is there? 
 
 iir. CUSIGK. Well, it will hurt thsi deai<3rs eom&, Mr, 
 Morris. Thsy ar^ getting along pretty wail in llr^- York, If I 
 understood Mr. Pattee's proposition to this Goamiasicn, taaking 
 a price in connection with %hioh ev-ijry na«v dairy bocamee prac- 
 tioallr a si^rplus dairy daspita tha contract betye&n the dealer 
 and ths dairy, tb*jr«> is-ay be lots of troubls. 
 
 Ooffis, M0??J3. I don't ge^- that point. You migiit gnats 
 it a^^ain* 
 
 ar^ aUSIOli. Undor Mr, Patt^s^'c theory, svi-ry ne'* dairy 
 that corass on will ha prasticaiiy a surplus daijr-y» 
 
 'Do.jfflE, MUKDO'OK., , Hor unless it r^iOlly is. ^ 
 
 Uxt CUSIOK. It can't ba otherwise, ^vary n-a^^ aairy is a 
 surplus ciairy. - . 
 
 Goffisj. MUHDOQi::. It can bs oheoksd. 
 
 Mr. GUSIC3K, It cannot ha chesksd. livery dairy is so 
 
 identified tsith the curplus thtxt it cannot bs stps-JC-JLtedi* That 
 
 'is ai'iat it would maan, and you would navBT do it .^md Ka would 
 
 n&ver do it, svsn if %'© ware ordarsd to do it, despite our con- 
 
 |tract with th^t n«u' dairy. We ?,'o\jid p3.f them »vhat that iriilk 
 
 was ^jsfOrth for surplus, I don't thini. it is practical. ■ 
 
 I Mr. S3AKS* It seems to me tJiat thare ar; t.-^ rather 
 
 strong ohjsctions to Mr. Pattes's proposed change. I askjd Dr. 
 
 GilDsrt to giv$ ma th« two prices for October -- th-j price paid 
 
 to thQ farasara less the general surplus deduction, which saiount- 
 
 Isd to $4.35, at tha prici; p.aid or taQ pries ullowad for the 
 
 I 
 
 surplus ifiilk, which is 43,40,- or, in otiinr words, a aiffarence 
 
 of 95 cinta, or n^iarly 25^ differyncw in prica. In othor words. 
 
* Ui- 
 
 
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 Z '-'».., uiisr ••■■ -^ .;*':>!■ :jO *!!.<= i J^o. 
 
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124 
 
 If a daalsr took ^n a nsw farmer x^e could only assure tiim a 
 pries of 25^ l3»R thin the dsta)>lished price ■ and, of course, no 
 
 fartaer ootdLd afford, if the figurds that hav© bsan put in her© 
 
 near 
 by ;4r. Pat tee for the last t^:^ monthe ars anywhere > correct, to 
 
 continue in th«# miik ousinsss and s^Xl at that prlc^. Thera- 
 
 ford, there would inevitably b©, as Mr. O'Hare has pointed out, 
 
 a dropping off in the surplus? 
 
 Chairman AIXS¥« In other worde, you could not go out and 
 flsaksj a contract with a dairy and toll a man that all he v&aa go- 
 ing to gtjt for his milk? 
 
 Mr, 3EAH3. Probably not, 
 
 Ghairajan ALLii.H. So, ycu wotildnH take on the dairy? 
 
 Mr* 2^AW» Probably not. 
 
 Soism. ilUPJX>CJ>., J understand that Ur» Pattt'e is basing tiiie 
 upon tin© fact that there has hQ&n an exerciad of hid jud^stnt 
 by tiie d'saiers ah thie ra;i.*-tor. 
 
 Mr. SEAK3. I don* t know whether that has bO'^n I'oraaily 
 put up to the aoaBBjisaion, v^hi^thijr thei's has baen any objection 
 
 or not. 
 
 Ooma, i^UHDOJIv. But llr. Patt«^ is basing his aoticn hare 
 upon ssparience, upon vmfortynata experience, tending in his 
 gjini to show that the Cosmission has not sfuifiilxid its function 
 Very w«il, 
 
 Mr. '-^aBS* i Should say about that, that the Oomaission 
 '^as dealing -sitJi an axc^tsdingiy aiff iouit problsai. I iaiow, 
 speaking for the- Hood Oompfiny, that soma of i t-.j worst diffi- 
 cuitios arise in tha administration of the isurpiue plan*. al- 
 though I triink it has -^orkssd out iuit& as &-@ll as, if not batter 
 tlian, thi'y exp?3Cted. ^omy of the difflouitisa that hive arisen 
 wsre anticipated, but no d^jalar, I thi'Uf, is going ielib.;rately 
 to buy sore jaiik thsin he ndeds* I ^Ts-ian, there is no corrsapond- 
 
'!.: it-iii- .- 
 
 ^'^-V. A,j 
 
 ^ ' '■ . 
 
125 
 ing advantage in doing it» Ke is simply loading himoeslf up 
 with ailk he dosjs nor. need and wMcli he cannot turn ovar into 
 profit, ana there is no monwy in doing lt# 
 
 3oiam, s^W?IS. And thara wo-uid be a question arise *hen 
 there was a falling market on cheese and butter, for instance, 
 instsad of u rxoin.g rairket, ae far as th^s effect on the i:-ro- 
 ducers was concerned. 
 
 Mr* S3A!?S. Wall, I hxi not considsrsd that, but I shO'jld 
 think p-ossxbly there ciight be. Thero in anothar practical dis- 
 advantage, because of sahich I cannot oed how you are goin^ to 
 figurs) this thing out. You have a fluctuating body of farst^jrs. 
 You st-irt on the 30th of "loveinbcr with a certain nuiabtir of 
 farmers. That is your fixed point. During tha montli of Decsas- 
 bcr a certain niiunbor of those farmers stop, they ^.xvb up, or 
 for soma reason or other they do not appear on ths books of fJcia 
 dealer the first day of January, and certain others take their 
 place. Then, certain of tliose taken on in I)ecewber are for 
 soraj rsason dropped in January, und so on. In oth,:r words, 
 you have a l>ody of farsera that is as ahif tine as the sands of 
 the sea, except, of course, that a certain residuum r'saains. 
 The r?^*sult is that you are going to have, I don't know how raany 
 different prices. You have to create different provisions for 
 t^9 original class, those that are in during P.eptsmbsr, for 
 those tftat coise in during January, and so forth* There has 
 
 been a great deal of f igurins» a great d--al of dirf xcult figur- 
 ing, in the practical sforkin^ out of the surplus plan. This 
 is sirnply going to arike an added trouble. It may be possible 
 to vi'ork it out, but it is going to me -in in the :xvl perhaps thrt,-e 
 or four dif ferant prices, and already thiQ Gosiaiseion hAs seen 
 the difficulties which have arisen where there h-iva hean t.;^o 
 prices. It has iiQ^n a o&tter of coaaoon knofwisidge that und^jr 
 
■ii (.;■;■ 
 
 '^-'.m'sS. •'? " 'r^Vi' I L, vi'i^ii. 
 
 ■ >■:. . .K-.-; ':. - 
 
 I - : ' ^ i-jt ? » 7 ■ 
 
 ^■^fcilT 
 
 
 I 
 
the existing surplus plan, vmtsra ^ach prici* is fis^ryd Tor each 
 deiilsr according to t,hs amount or nis individual surplvas, *rh**r3 
 a d3-2ler has a small surplus xna is op^irating in ths sama t<srri- 
 tory with a dsalar with a large surplus, the farmers dealing 
 ■with th'3 daai'irr who has thtj small aurplus ge": a highsr prices, 
 with th© permission of the OoDSffiission. You are going to h^-tva 
 th-3 sajsii condition a,^::"iin, and thers will ba ths dtJiaonds of the 
 fariusra taXen on latar to o^ paid tWs S.\iM. pr ioa. 
 
 Ooam, jLOTCHIS. if tha i^oisaission '-itsre to continue in ax- 
 is tenc^, woiildn*t a bett-ir «ay ^,o control it b-^i; Tor ths voai- 
 ffiission to aay, as I tiiinK it }i:.i8 th* poTw^r to say, t,hat tbare 
 should bcs no surplus during thr^? pres'int month,? Th'^n the d®ai- 
 sfrs, ii' ti'iey toolc on extra oustonsrs, would rio 30 at tiiwlr 
 Dsiril all tha tiin^. 
 
 ir. SSAiTS. Sell, with r?*r«jreRce to tmt I hav«j the f«?sil- 
 in,5 that tils* more artificial, barriers are cr^^ated around tha 
 ordinary operatic^ atxd devolopment oX the-- btBin-ssrs tha tiorsa 
 it is, tiiAt xt is un«iss. Of cour^a, the x-unda^trntai thing 
 about this price fixing is tliat it is artis'icial. At the same 
 ti/fl^j as auch latitude afe can possilrly b* parr&itted, it s-3«*ms 
 to 2u«, should b<j allowsfd, and wmr-^ ycu .xrts going io sa-y th^at 
 this farmer or that fariH'i-r cannot b«j t^aksn on 1-1 sci^^^ar-s to ma 
 yow ar*- trav^lll?)^g into a rsgion that is aatirely ua-^xplored 
 and are not going to Ocj parf^otly Cafrtain as to exactly « her a 
 you will com-3 out» In othdr worcts, you ar-4 dialing '«ith 
 economls jusstions and trying to r-JStraia Isjnd^jnciaS thit as*® 
 p:3rf iCtly natural t.^ndenci«s, and th^^ outlook will ba very un- 
 certain. 
 
 Oojffia» ]IOi?l?IS« It would t)& luite likely to rois-* a atoris, 
 woxil'ln't ii, Tmm mlXk producars tiiroughout Jl^^w England -ffho 
 do not hiippdn to bw in thd 80 1? ton sx-^T]s.%t at a certain tiui«, to 
 
O-ft t'U. v.,v 
 
 i^i, (.4'A^ t 
 
 ;,Sr. - ■• ,:..>•;.;;.'■ Jfet.n 
 
i27 
 
 say that they ahalX be Iiffiil;=id to surplus priCi^s if th«*y saek 
 
 Boston 
 tha aaricdt? Wouldn't tiiat cr«ate luita a storm? 
 
 Mr. SSAHS. I don*t knos that I could Bp'jak. on that jaattsr 
 froai thii producars' point of via*. 
 
 Ooffla. ].iOPr?IS. What »ouia you say about that, Mr. Pat tee? 
 
 Mr. PATTjSS. That is a stojra that you are at the very ctin- 
 t^r of, to-lay. 
 
 Goffiffi. 5K>B'!?IS. Uxoept that tna storm biowe from a different 
 dirdetion. 
 
 Mr. ?ATT:SE. Lst la^ say that under ths present plan the 
 thing is unpopuiAr with the farm-r, because hts sees ail aroiind 
 him dairies taicen on. I say, *ail around hia* , It ie diffi- 
 cult to run do»n all th-iiso things, but it ie repaatsd to aa 
 fro® avary direction that I go tiiat civ-aitjrs ars taking en new 
 dairloB constantly, :tnd the objsctioa tiiat th0 n-jw dairiee ara 
 siiuply addsd to surpiiis is vvhat I am trying to ov^ rooms in this 
 suggestion. Let ffi« say to yoii that BV^ry dairy taiken on, or 
 that has been taken on since the first of iaat Hay, has ngcss- 
 sarily be<sn taken on at an uncertain and unnjiasd pries. It ims 
 Q^QXi a stirplus dairy* The objs^otion that you cannot naas a 
 
 price to a now dairy applies no laore to this proposition 
 thJin to ali dairies under the foitaer proposition, and will con- 
 tinue to apply until all dairies are chargad with the surplus 
 that thay themselvso create* It seams to iatj, as I sugg'^st^jd 
 a Eioxaent ago, like a man naking down a load of produce to the 
 ffi^urkst tb.at the daal-^r does not i^ant and does not nssd. He may 
 say to the man, "I will get you saaat I can for it and rotum 
 you that much." I think you itill find, if you study this 
 carsfully and analyu© it, th^t it will work out autojaaticaily, 
 that it »ili not -if fact thb daalars' mcoai©, profits or business 
 in tliti Itjist, but s-ill simply ttsnd to locata tha loss through 
 
i 
 
 :■■.- t:.i ^ 'a.. 
 
 >:■ 1 <^,>f c t 
 
128 
 
 surplus on those dairies who cr^tate that surplus. 
 
 3oam, BIHD. Who is to dot-drmine undar your plan the 
 dairies not necessary to the conduct of ths business? 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. Thd returns of tha dealer himself will shew 
 wimt voluias of lailk is nticassary, and if ths dairies he has 
 produce a voIvbhq of milk that is raorw than n9C0saary, that 
 excess will be charged back to those dairies that h^ has, but 
 before it is charged back wo\ild be taken the milk that he 
 bou^iht of nsw dairies* 
 
 CoBBQ. MTODOOy.. How is it to be d^terminod ^hich n^w 
 dairies 8 create the surplus? 
 
 Mr. PATTSB. I think perhaps this proposition doas not go 
 sufficiently far» and I have another hera, if you please, that 
 I would like to submit, lator. 
 
 Chairman AlIJ^F. Without consultation with tha rast of the 
 Gojtaaissioners, I think laie is a fairly opporttinis tiaao to state 
 that I can personally foresee on April let a pretty chaotic 
 Stat© of affairs unls>ss Boim constiructivt^ auggystion is put out 
 by this voinmi^sion, and, as I hav€/ been listening to this dis- 
 cussion, I think «e may bw atuzabling over a. v^ry little thing, 
 whan I think we should be discussing soiae larger questions that 
 are coming up before this OosEsisaion. I kno'a th^^ Coiamission 
 all fS9l tOiat we have spent a good deal of tiaiu on this work 
 and that when April 1st comes ther# *ill bo trouble, unless 
 soma constructive work is done, and we may not isven be allowed 
 to go to April 1st. So I think we shoiild spend sioot of our time 
 in discussing what can be dons to help the industry when tixis 
 Commission stops sitting. Therefore, I had hoped you would 
 say, "While ths surplus plan has some outs about it, it has 
 been ^ing on for soiatj time and can v^rj' well run for three 
 ffionths xaora, and t^s want to spend most of our time in arriving 
 
c 
 
 '^^■■."y-'^d:. 
 
 -.■■■- :LXS';i 
 
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 ■V^Ji. 
 
at something constructive, tiaat will b© al'faotive for the 
 future." That, la the »»ay it appaals to n^« 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. 1st rai go on record as saying this: It is 
 exactly in that spirit that I .iak your consideration of this 
 SLfflendmsnt to the surplus plan. I taka it that ths Ooaffiission 
 in sxeouting the surplus plan aid so with a viow to creating 
 a btj^Lsr sjarkst system 2^or M-jw Sngl^^nd, and, I take it, if xa- 
 perfactions or evan pogsibiliti*ts of abuaa or iinperf action can 
 ba shoftn to this Oomuission, hare and no-^ is ths? tiiae to try 
 to arriva at a plan tiiat will last afttjr the Ooamission o^asds 
 to axist. 
 
 ChairniAn AIISK. Caji it through any ^'sacliin.'ry last aft<jr 
 April Int? 
 
 Mr, P.^TTI^]. Hot in its prassnt foraa, and it is Alth a viaw 
 to remedying it, making it s^'r^ accaptabla, without in any way 
 obviating or ai'focting the juetioe, aiuity or eoonoaiss of it, 
 that I aaa asking for thia adjustaicjnt ta> 00 written into it. 
 
 Ilr, AMSAGH* I^ia firm I r^-jprasant had about 00^ surplus 
 in ths flionLh cI Juna, and r-joently, with practically tiis aai^ 
 nxmXi'ir of producdrs, wo hav^- tiad to get silk outside, buying 
 milk outsids' of our own produc^^rs. We txioiigxit a 60^ surplus 
 would carry ug through tiiis short xaonths, -j^d it aidn't. Uniar 
 Mr. Patte2*s proposition, ws v»oulan*t hav© enough milk to carry 
 U5 through next Hovimo^jr. As I understand it, the surplus pl-an 
 is fjupposad to caiTy a doal<ir -ohrougJu. t-he ytiar, m the short 
 period. He is p;snalizad if ha carries jsore than that, because 
 he canno': carry any surplus for Novcmoer. It seems to ay that 
 covers the point, and it. ss^eas to as ths *hole thin^^ is cov-jr^d 
 by tha prfcsant surplus i>ian. A dealer is not going out to 
 buy wild, ■jfhc^n hd is p!5nalis<*d if ha do^js 30. Tn.-^ noatci of the 
 Hsw dairy is givaa to tiio Oomiaission, and he can b^ call^sd to 
 
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 asiJ-. -J' 
 
 ^ 
 
i30 
 
 account if he is buying wild. It seams to ma a daal-jr should 
 be abls to buy enough to carry him through next November. If 
 he wao short this ?rovomb©r, presiiraably, if tha business doss 
 not decrease, he will ha short next Novemt-er. 
 
 GJomm. BIH). j£r. Pattee, let us s-it back to f undamyntais. 
 The raason why the surplus plan <fta8 neoasaary was because the 
 tnrmers of }?aw ISngiand do not 'xnd havj not produced thsir mlk 
 according to the rsquirsm'Snta of th^? Boston jaarkst, but accord- 
 ing to their own» Ths CJomaiiasion -ftas oonfront^id with the fact 
 that It had to sat a pric-s with an unknosn surplus aivaya hanging 
 
 ' over itg hfcad that ao.n3body Vr^d to carry, and it ^as on t>iat ac- 
 count that the Oo3jmission sat th»i surplus at a :joi.nt mi-jr-j it 
 would ba passed bach to tho point, •vner^ it was crtsatsd. "atu- 
 raliy, tho farmars do not like? it* It ia not nice to have a 
 charge brxCJi and to find that you are not gritting as i-tuoh as you 
 thouf^ht you vjsre- But it was created by the farmers, and, while 
 it uiay ba true t.hcit some of tha dealers may hava over-bought 
 some*hsrs, ysst, irx studying the- figures, it ioiis no^ noem. to me 
 that thsre has taan any particularly srild buying on tha part of 
 the dealers « It ssasis to me that ths reai3dy lias with th© 
 farmers th-aassivas, and not tha Ooaraissioa, and that you are 
 trying to apply th=? r^w^dy to the dealer whan th'3 fault r>5 3J.ly 
 li^s with tho farasr. If you had produced trvid:?nco bt^fors tins 
 CoEjmiesion tc show tiiat daaisrs had bought wild ■.iTKl had sja- 
 torially ovsr-bought for their requiremwnts, it scams to ae 
 your argumrjnt v?ould h:ivs mors w&igfct; but I do not s^o that 
 you hava produced avidenca before the OonmlsBion to ehcvw that 
 these dealers have botght wild or carried big surpluses in 
 certain asonths that thoy did not rc-juire. If that is true, 
 they had to buy &. ftiioi?. lot laore milk dxyrinc the months of 
 
 j stiTplus production ^o taicr> C4ire of themsolv^js during tho aontjna 
 
,<)'■:» ■■ .,,- V 
 
 x ■:,:.:* ■•o 
 
 ^■'X.-r^i I 
 
 .!■£*• iOa I'insi^j" 
 
 ' JLi-'J. 
 
 — r.-r 1 
 
 l.-v. ."nv X-J-.i.^ 
 
 
 ;;• n-- i-iivx-.t,^.>.. •:j.^.;- 
 
131 
 Of least production. Is that th© dealers' fault or ths farmers' 
 fault.? 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. I think, Mr. Coraraissioaer, if I understand 
 your proposition correctly,- you have th-i retiims cuid »© have 
 not, unfortunateiy,-- 
 
 Oohhh, BIIRD. They ars all accessible to you, Mr. Pattee. 
 
 Ur, PATTES* v<3S, but thay are not yat available, I under- 
 8t.and, for tha raontJi of Hovoigbwr. It is true that the di^alers 
 caae before you at the time we proposed that no surplus charge 
 back be allowed for tlnci Hjonth of Novsaber with strenuoiis ob- 
 jection and stataxnants tnat they would Buffer vmder that situ- 
 ation. To a certain extent that answers yo-or juastion. To what 
 extant it answsr« it would be disclosed by tiie records. Tiiow, 
 then, I cannot aov that that ai'fects the principle involved, 
 in thd laast. If tho new dairies create a surplus, tha old 
 dairies should not be charged with it. If tb-^y do not create 
 a surplus nobody would ba charged with it, -^nd tha old dairies 
 would not sufi'eir. It is the adding of naw dairies during any 
 period of the y^sar, thareby creating a surplus at the time whan 
 they are added, that is objectionable. ^Sh^n the short season 
 coaee, if the production of those n.3W aairiys included is only 
 sufficient for ths market, t>isre will bs no sui'plus to be 
 ehargad basjs: to those n&^ dairies. I think it automatically 
 adjusts itself to the proposition; only dioring the springtiae, 
 whsn th0re is a flush production, old dairies are not obliged 
 to sxiffsr for a fault that thay do not craats. If latsr tha 
 na« dairy is naedsd to makss up tht? supply, it automatically 
 disappears xmd^r this arrang«ra«nt for the surplus charge. 
 
 COfflsa. BIRD. Your pramise is tiiat the dairies have suff tir- 
 ed. My point is that, there hisis b^en no proof brought before 
 tho ComiaiEsion y^t to show that they have siiff-^rad. 
 

 
 J J!. Al, w.i. 
 
 f< 
 
 
 i. I;.%C ,ft*^-w 
 
 **r\ > 'V ' 
 
 v;' °^<M 
 
Mr. PATTEE. Und^sr suoh circumstsmcds, if thera is no suf- 
 fering, ttere is no application of this thing. Tha thing is 
 not in the i«2ast objc;ctionablQ« 
 
 Oomm. BIKS. Then, it proves that the surplus plan has 
 worked out reasonably wsjII, as far as thi axjplication of the 
 surplus is concerned, to those who havo brought th« surplus 
 about. 
 
 Consffl. K0BSI5. I thinjc, iir. Pat tee, that the coaiplaint of 
 ! the fanriers is more imaginary th^an real, in this matter. Of 
 course, wy can see ho«v the thing ftouid b«i looiiied at, as far as 
 the surpliis plan is conc.-rnsjd, in a comraunity of fcina^rs. Thay 
 see one or two farmers perhaps taken on in th«i- neighoorhood 
 close by, that txiey itnov^ about, and. tiiey see a surplus that 
 comes back, taken out of their iailk. They only look at that 
 point, and think that what is going on there is going on all 
 over Na* England, and perrxaps they should not be bl^ued for 
 thinking that. They think a large numo^^r of producers are being 
 taken on when they ought not to be, vs'hereas if they kn;iw the 
 real facts they would sea that the ch^inges were unimportant, 
 so to speak. 
 
 Mr, PATPSB. Under my proposition, Gommisaioner, ^^e woiild 
 simply reassure thea against loss by reason of the taking on of 
 new dairies. .-i-. 
 
 Ohairaan ALL3K. i}o you yourself see how that could be 
 worked out, dr* Pattee? 
 
 Mr, PATTSE. With ease. 
 
 Ghaijnaan ALLSS. Will you show the OoHimJLssion? 
 
 Mr» PATTEE. I think so, if the Ooasmission iwlll Jcindly 
 r^sad that clause, 
 
 CJhainaan ALLEYS. You say, looking at this jsatti-r in a 
 practical way, asfar as those dairies are concerned, that this 
 
iH.i: n-&_ ciiii:.. 
 
 - ^ ,fj.,t.i:itl?j tjtS:. JCu ■;^ i..,.^it8 ^C^M^. fiq.-*. 
 
 
1S3 
 could be worked out v::?ry aaelly* 
 
 Ooaan. }!^UT?BOOK. Ke suggested that he had In mind soiae 
 further amendrnt^nt. 
 
 ahiiirman AILEH* I am speaking of this particular thing 
 that is bdfore us* 
 
 air. PA7TES. I think it is covar'^d in tha sacond clause 
 of the proposition. . ' 
 
 COHim. MUliDOOK. Yas, but there is difficulty in d>3t>iraiining 
 which of the new dairies are responsible for the surplus, if 
 any there be, and you said you had some aaiendnisjnt to proposa 
 to take care of that, as I understood you a momont ago. 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. That is another story, which probably would 
 involve more discussion. If this be the tin^ and place to sug- 
 gest it, I would suggtist that the surplus plan ba amanded 
 fxirther as propos'jd on this sh^-st (handing sh-^et to OonKsission). 
 I sug^ast, furtii-ir, "ThJit the surplus plan be so .amendQ4 aa to 
 provide that the surplus loss b^ apportioned among d^irias in 
 proportion to thair increase in production sinco Hov^jioabar 30, 
 1918. • 
 
 Chairman ALI2T7. l!ho gets the pramiua, undsr that? Th3 
 fellows whose cows come fresh early in the spring? 
 
 Mr. PATTES. In othur words, it is for you gentlemen to 
 fight for a rating system. - 
 
 Ohairman ALLSR. Is this to tell the f ^rtaer to bret3d hie 
 
 cows so that they -vili not all ooiss in at one time in the year? 
 
 I 
 
 I Mr. PATfBS. It is shat you have btssn trying to do and what 
 
 ^e hav2 b&Bn trying to do, what a gr«at msmy farmers have been 
 
 trying to do. • .,- i • \-:. 
 
 Chairman ALLEH. It was our hope that something might be 
 
 done that would help in that matter. 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. I most decidedly think this would ht-lp — that 
 

 
 
 '?■'•? f»l ".-■£:« ;-rvi 
 
 ^?rl"f^s k-fsJ «a; X 
 
 Hi^ilJ-^-Jv -v-^' -^O. >!v :- I .S.-'yO^' 
 
 '■::' ot <i" ;-VJ i-^-J-"!^ ri'>^« irV-;Uj .;. 
 
 1 
 
154 
 
 tha surplus plan bo so ajnended as to provide that the surplus 
 los8 be apportioned amori;'; dairies in proportion to their in- 
 crease ir» production since Movdaib^r SO, iyi3» 
 
 Ohalrman ALIZIU ^ell, that would in a way work towards 
 giving a preaiiim to a man wiK> breeds his co\^s ao as to cosa in 
 more evsnly through the year* 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. It wovild sKian that the more a man paroducad 
 as a surplus the iarg-jr loss he would bear, 
 
 Mr. ClUSIOK. You would find that you would want five ad- 
 ministrators. Therft is a job for you, nilbsrtl 
 
 Mr. ZlMMSHMAIf. And how about cr^aiacsriss using up tha sur- 
 plus? Why isn*t this lik^ coal and oth-.-r ooi^imditists? il^r& 
 
 XB a raarket short of buttsr, and you ars talking about surplxis. 
 
 men 
 I have ss-en , fighting in their hom^s for butter. You go to the 
 
 store at timas and you -zan only gat half a pound of buttsr, amd 
 
 a 
 hera the farnierr, have ^v surplus > and yat tha prica of buttar is 
 
 so high that people cannot buy it* 
 
 Ohairrsan ALLxilT. I do not feal that there should bs too 
 much interruption, but that we should stick right to ths sub- 
 ject. 
 
 Mr. Ziwmmj^, Thore are lots of ways to g>5t rid of the 
 surplus. 
 
 Oh&irman ALLM, Show us., 
 
 Mr. ZIMISPHA??. Maka butter out of i*. That is ons ^sray — 
 and chses©. 
 
 Kr. PATTSS. 3oaje years ago tha cs-ap systsm was in aff&ct, 
 which more or l^ss locat;;id the surplus on the man who mad^j it. 
 I biJlisve th® principle of that plan «ae right, and I b'ili«»V6 
 that a modification or ri^iVision of tlia.t plan can bs ciads that 
 will sork justice to a greater degrae than is posaibls under 
 tha pr^ssent surplus plan. Ths ona gniat objection to the 
 
.• . .\f'-i -4. /!/:> : 
 
 ■. --.U. 
 
135 
 
 surplus plan and tha one great discouragaraent to tho y^ry tiiing 
 you -are trying to create and that tjr» m'U-kat demands, even 
 production, is that undar the present surplus plan the irjan who 
 makes an even production hati to haar his part of the surplus 
 
 C argG-oacK ^v^^^t arises tiurough som-dbody that doas not m-iike 
 
 an avan production. Ifovi/, if tha Gojasaission «ili at this its 
 
 last sitting revise its plan so as to provide that tha surplus 
 loss shall bs apportioned am. ng the dairies in proportion to 
 thoir increase in production 
 
 Coasa* SAWYSB. Over what tia»? 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. I have solocted as a date your dato, and you 
 may change it if you sae fit,- November 30th. 
 
 Mr* CUSI::K. Since IToverab-^r 30? 
 
 Mr. PATTBS. Yes, sinca Novdisbor .30. Now, I hciva bc^dn 
 asied by this OomsiisGion to suggest constructive ileas, con- 
 tinually. I asked before this Oomrais sion that a r^scass com- 
 aittes be appointed to consider thens things. A r-j'Cesa com- 
 mittee was appointed, and, to spsajc framtly, it %a3 not very 
 much of a success in considering thssa things. At that time 
 we asked for inforraation rsiativa to salos, and so forth, and 
 got a vary small vjay with it, Mo such plan, rapressntative of 
 the surplus plan, will ba, in my jud^^raent, sff active, unless 
 it has th5 force of the Coiamission behind it, the strength of 
 the OomaJission. Otherwise I doubt if you could aver reconcile 
 the parties. But we do ask that you yourselves rovist> th^ sur- 
 plus plan, as sxiggested hare, so as to provide that the surplus 
 loss bsj apportioned amon^ dairies in proportion to th;;ir in- 
 crease in production since ??oveaabor 30, 1918. 
 
 Ohiin-nan AILSH. Jrom the looks of our friends on the op- 
 posite side, providing it v.ould be satisfactory from a book- 
 keapins standpoint, I 8up:joso they would approve of iti 
 
136 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. I prssvoae they will approve of it. 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. Your map plans ar© abeolutely inconsistcjnt 
 with any such surplus plan. 
 
 Ohainnan ALLSN. You a^res to it or not? 
 
 Mr. SUSIC!K. Don't you know that it cannot bs mu'ls prac- 
 tic-U? 
 
 Ghairman ALLEl^. I thought you all looked as throu^ you 
 favorad iti 
 
 Mr. 0U3I0K. We ware looking at your faciend, tha Adsinie- 
 tratorl I am v<3ry gl:i'l, howevar, that at this lata day he cosiiiB 
 in and talks no^sf about aap plans. 
 
 Ghainaan ALL7Ji, You don't ^ant to discuss that too siuch, 
 I hops? 
 
 Mr. OmiOK* TiO, but I was simply drawing ta tm atten- 
 tion of thd -"JomRjission th-.^ facts in connection with this things 
 a« regards the reap plan and thissu^gestion. Before any surplus 
 plan %as adopted this map pl;an wag submitted to fjxa Coarsission. 
 It was turned down and you took the surplus plan. It is abso- 
 lutely inconaistsnt isith th© principle of a surplus plan, :4nd 
 you 5iu£t know it. So this isn*t any sus-rKimsnt of a stirplus 
 plan. 
 
 Chairman AXJJiS. Is thsit your anavrsr? 
 
 Mr. OUSICSC. Ytis, sir. 
 
 aoam. 0*HAH3. What inC'sntive would thera be for the pub- 
 lic to consiaaa mors milk if that plan waa in ssffGCt? 
 
 Mr* PATTBS. (Apparently miaundifrstanding luestion.) ^vexy 
 encouragarasnt hs now has,- his profit on his sales, which ig 
 all the ancouragomsnt he has avcjr had. 
 
 Coiaffi. O'HAHS. In certain months of the year he could take 
 on n^'si dairies that ha wished, to build up hie business, with- 
 out ro8triction? 
 
• '■} 
 
137 
 
 Mr. PATfEE. You r«f»r to tJa& first sug^sation? 
 
 Oomm, 0*HAK2, Yes* 
 
 Mr. PATTiSE. Tiiatra is no restriction on his taking on new 
 dairies ^liatever, but it doss provide tiiat if a surplus arisaa 
 tJarough taking tiisa on tiiat surplus siiall 'd& charged to thaa 
 and not to th<i other dairies* 
 
 GoaBs. 0*HA"SE. You think a daal^r sill take that chaaaca? 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. Weil, if tho^y nes^ded the milk I should ex- 
 pact that they uould takw that ch.^no3. I don't sse that thay 
 takss any chance, Sir. Ooisaissioner. Thsy aire absolutely pro- 
 tected against loss in hiindiing surplus. Thay are givan by 
 you a profit for handling the whole milk. Thsy can tak& on 
 all iSr-.Tn England, a.6 it is no%-, and spread tha loss on the farm- 
 ers, **h@ther they were necessary to th« 'ousin^^ss of thiS dealer 
 or not, :ind undsr your system of price making you furnish a 
 price, pr«»8tas£i"oly cost plus a profit to thi d-jaisr, and protect 
 him against loss in handling the s-orplius. 
 
 Coisa. C*HARE. You have h^ard ths statsia^nt just ir.ade by 
 ths auditor of one of tl-ie coapaniess, that at a cart-iiin puriod 
 of the year thay didn't gat enough isilk to supply thuir custom- 
 ers. MQf», if h^ h"i3 to take on n^« dairies to £st enough milk 
 to supply his customers, would th'iirsj ba stny tendb-ncy to do that? 
 If you wera in business, what %ouid you do? 
 
 Mr. PATTSii. Lit as- .ans-«er that hy the uxperience of that 
 very concern to which you allude. It lost, actually lost 
 producers last year, and tha record shows that it has less 
 dairies at tVie end of the period of wtiich it has a record than 
 it had at the beginning. I say -.o you that b<syond a doubt some 
 part of that loss of i<iirias is due to thts f ict that dairios 
 go out of business rather than suffer a surplus loss that thay 
 do not theaseivQs crtsate. Und&r the proposed plan thara would 
 
138 
 be jaor® incentive to those now in to stay in and tmtm woiad be 
 no diaeouragsment of those not now in to continua in tiiair 
 pregs-nt line of t)t!Bin9S8. 
 
 OosEs, 0'HA3?S. If there is the discouragement which has 
 bean intimated, y^hy are you af^raid of nciw dairies coming in? 
 
 }lr» PATT5;i;« Because of further discouragsm-ants. You add 
 to the fiurpiuB which is to be charged back to th^ producers 
 already taken on by giving tiiese dealers pi^rraieaion to buy 
 frmi othar dairies and tiirow the surplus back onto thaia, and 
 that vBill maon further discouragements. 
 
 Cosm. 0*HAHE. Vou are afraid of dairies coming in? 
 
 Mr. PAT1SS* Kot at ail. But && would like t© p^rot^^ct th© 
 dairies already in and woitld like to encouraga those in to stay 
 iit* 
 
 Oomm, MUBBOOK. It is your contention tiiat the present 
 ehsck on indiseriminata buying on the part of tha dealers, im- 
 posed by the Doaimiaaion, is in^aff active? ' 
 
 Ur» PATTSI*. Inadequate etna xnaff active. 
 
 Chairman ALUiN. Have you brought before the Commission at 
 any t.iaa proofs of tnat, Mr. Pattes? Isn't t,>ivr9 a burden on 
 your part to bring proofs that that is not working -as it should? 
 
 Mr. PATT13S. I would like to call ths Chairman's attention 
 to tha figures for the month of May with rti»lation 'o onu com- 
 pany. You ask for f5p<jcific instances. 
 
 Chairman AIL:^T. You havw not brought before the Coiaraission 
 up to this time any general complaint that it was working out 
 unfairly to the farmefre, have you? 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. i^o, I h-ava not brought to the Commission any 
 racoiaresndation up to now. 
 
 Chairman ALLAH. Then, this is simply a. recommendation for 
 the future? 
 
-t.i'i^' .nvj'". 
 
 ;i . : ■ 
 
 : n . ■ 
 
 T.' •• i ,K '>f: j^'' 
 
139 
 
 Mr. PATfEE, Based on tho axperienso of the past. 
 
 Chairman ALLSN. Oan you stats in a fsw words wnat that 
 expi3rienc« is that brings you to this suggestion? 
 
 Mr. PATTES. I would call your attention to the profit 
 and loss sheets of ona of tha parties to this agraaaent for the 
 BK>nth of May. I don't know whether you natit me to -juote it 
 publicly or not. I would call your attention to the fact that 
 during the moiUh of May the charge-back of surplus loso to 
 the producers furnishing xailk to that concarn was |70,380. 
 That io, thay received that much legs for their lailk than they 
 would havy rocaiv^d had ths who la nilk been takan at the whole 
 siilk pries. At the same tiaaa, the profit and loss sheets filed 
 with you by that company showed a net profit to that company of 
 #64,638.48 for the month of liay. During that monfJa that one 
 concern took on 162 dairiss and dropp.^d 30. In other y^ordB, 
 taking on 150 aairias contributed to a lose, a. charso-faack on 
 st^rplus, of |70,000 odd, while tha concam ¥^as making #64,000 
 odd profit. 
 
 OoiDffi* MCSRIS. You have luoted certain figuras thar-s for 
 May? 
 
 ar. PATTSS. Yos. 
 
 Coffiia. MCRPIS. I suppose you also ou^ht to publicly state 
 that tiis 3ogBnission*s duty was to try at that txaw to over- 
 reimburse tha d-jalsrs for losses which tlisy had sustained prior 
 to and iujsj^dlately following January Ist, 1918? 
 
 Mr. PATI^E. Yas, sir. 
 
 OoiBBi. IIOKBIB* And that fhs spring months ■sera tria atonths 
 in yrhich thw rscoup/uent was attsEptad to be made, both to th« 
 farmers and to the dealers. So it is hardly fair, is it, to 
 single out one month ani publicly state that there was a nat 
 profit of so much during that month, vhen perhaps tiiat particu- 
 
■": k:^Ji '^'■iitJ' f*' 
 
 ,. V '■ •{\ 1- ft, {'■-. . ■ *< 
 
140 
 
 lar concQ3m did not ahow any profits from January 1st, but, as 
 you jcnow, many other d^ialers did show a very large loss during 
 thd months of January, J'sbruary and March, ovar |6,000 a month, 
 aoaa of them. Th«i Ooiamission has the duty of trying to regu- 
 late those pricya so as to give every &o<ly a chanc© to maka up 
 what has ba^n lont, to equalize things. 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. I understand that it ie the duty of tha 
 OoismiBsion to award such prices to the dealer© as will permit 
 thorn to maka a reasonable profit, but I anticipate that it is 
 also the duty of tha Coaifflisgion to reiuire on the part of th« 
 dealers a de^^rea of efficiency that ordinary businsiss would 
 require in ord«r to make a profit. ¥0%, then, v*e ar«j required 
 under t}i& rulings of your Commission to furnish a quantity of 
 aiilk per cow beyond, far beyond, th<e capacity of tha covsrs on 
 which th3 Gity of Boston depends for its supply. We havt3 nsvar 
 complained publicly, or privately, for that matter, against the 
 ruling of the Ooazaission that prices shoiiid be based on a 5000 
 pounds production. But if all the cows of less than that pro- 
 duction wsre eliroinatsd from tM supply, Boston would go mighty 
 hungry for milk. We accept that as a standard of efficiency 
 on *rhich prices should ha based. Mow, I do not b^ievt* it is 
 a l&gitiaiate argxim-int for the 3oaroission to maintain that they 
 should establish prices so high that m efficient dsalsr aay 
 aisJce a statement that inay not bs publicly disclosod in ord^r 
 th-it soms othar duoler may rseoup hiaself for losses. 
 
 aoxm, M0HT?I3. *ali, during the month of Janu^iry th,^ saa» 
 daal-'r that you are rafarring to shows a profit of v^ry litti® 
 over $1,000, as I rismtjsib-ir it. 
 '^. PATTSB. |1,&00. 
 
 OoBja. MOBBIS. Something iiks |i,r>00, which would b-a con- 
 Bider&d a v^ry small perc^intag^? of profit, of course. You 
 
i :«. 
 
141 
 wouldnH think it good judgment on tha part of the OoiEsxssion 
 to drive out of buainass various dealers and thro* the 'akole 
 business into the hanis of one or two daaiere in thr city, 
 would you? 
 
 Mr. PATTED. Well, I do not baliave it is of any partictilar 
 advantasQ to ths market in Boston or to the farmer a thssjssives 
 either for the consumer to be obli^ad to pay or the producer 
 to bd obliged to accept xaon^y so big on th^ ona hand or 30 lit- 
 tle on the other that an inefficient dealer can stay in busi- 
 ness. 
 
 OomcB» SAWY^. But yat you want to protect the inefficient 
 farmer? 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. I didn't say tiiat. 
 
 Ooaaa. SAWV¥R. That is your inference. 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. I say that we have accepted tha 5000 pound 
 Standard us tha standard at liie present tiiae on sshich to base 
 prices. 
 
 Mr. 0UBXO&., As rspr.isenting the dealers, I ^^ant to aak 
 ilr. Pat tee who® he colls an inefficient as ale r? 
 
 Ohairjaan ALLE¥. I don*t think it is necessary to go into 
 that luestion. ;'' ■' 
 
 Mr. OUSIOK. But I think wa have a right in this hearing, 
 when he sakss a ctatement of that kind, to know to whom he 
 refers as an inefficient dealer. ; 
 
 Ohairaan ALLSH. I think thare is no na^d of going further 
 into that. 
 
 Air. wUniOK. Well, I knovr what he means si.nd »ho hs sx^jans. 
 I think that sort of stuff has gone on far enough. 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. I will sulxsit isy rights to ths :;oai2ai3sion. 
 
 Oornm. BI?J). Did Mr. Pattse answer the last lusstion asked 
 by the Oosjrcission? 
 
o^ ■.Hm:£ oi it::ii ■'' 
 
 ':^*:r ^^ hit cm-i)^:.. 
 
 S: !:■: 
 
142 
 
 i42 
 
 Mr. PAT7£S» I called your attention to the loss suffered 
 
 in one niont.hi, in tha way I h:iV3 rsferrad to, v*hila tiis dtioiar 
 was protected against loss, and called ittantion to thu fact 
 that 132 dairies ^or& add9d by thai: d<ialer in tizat aontli. I 
 ws« asked in regard to sps)cific instancas. I said that I 
 did not submit these figurae except at %hs invitation of the 
 Ooaimissionsrs, -and hesitated about going furthtT into the mat- 
 ter, Linl-iss it was disirsd by the Commission that i should do so 
 
 Coniffi, BI"8I). I undarstand ona of your principal objiictions 
 to the 8v<rplus plan is that farmers maitlr^ a uniforis production 
 throtighout the year are penalised under the surplus plan. I 
 agree ^ifch you that that is pernicious, and the C/Oianiission have 
 asked you to make suggestions as to that, ao a matter of pro- 
 tection. It does not seem to me as if the plan you have sug- 
 gested was going to do the thing you contemplate or want to have 
 done. I have a suggestion hero, which i^erxiapa may be '-orn to 
 pieces, but it might offer a solution. Suppose the dealers 
 vent over the list of dairies and picked out the dairies that 
 had ®ade a unif 02*a production throughout tfie year, worKing under 
 this surplus plan. We have gone along on it for practically a 
 year, so that I think the figures would be avaii.-ioi©. ^y 
 percentage quoted here may not be right, but suppose that any 
 dairy arhose production does not vary aare than 10^ from the 
 fflinimi-aa month shall be classified as a Class A dairy, and shall 
 be relieved froia all oharge-baoks of surplus, unaar tiiit surplvis 
 plan, and shall receive the full price Ssrt by the Commission 
 from the dealer, Mid the surplus auilk shall ou- apportioned over 
 all other preducera. iJo^s that cover your point of protecting 
 the nan who laakes uniforsu production? 
 
 Ur, Pi^TSS- I see this objection, ^r. Bird, 1.0 th-^t pl,Mi 
 phrased in that *ay, that those who have made a uniforiu pro- 
 
A ix'^i'. ■.;^ 
 
in ^ 
 duction fflight be ,s\iff xcient lo proviisa ths daalsr ^ith his 
 
 whols supply of nalk* Tour surplus eltuation is not r^madxtid 
 
 by even production. Svsn production '.^ould siaaply distribute 
 
 the surplus evenly betwasn the sonthe. 
 
 CoflMQ» BI'RD. It would not be nEjcesoa-ry to taks on an amount 
 of 2illk that is not r*;quirs!i in cortain months to pro'ridi for 
 othtir montha when railk was not available* if there was J.n evan 
 supply. A aealer would ba -^bl^ to contract for the amount of 
 milic he wantsd from aionth to -nonth. If h-j bought too auch, 
 that isfould be his hunt. Toa:i.y, he dv'.s not icnow what he is 
 getting. ThB.t is not the dealer's f^iult, but th:; produo3r*a 
 fault. 
 
 Mr, PATTSS. Yes. 
 
 OOBaa. BIBI). Your sugneation was that tnis surplus piim 
 was penalizing tn* m:m who aade tha sv-^n production. All right. 
 If ths3 dsolsr knova h3 can gat from a producer month in and 
 aaonth out so mush lailk, in tiiat case th© producer is protected, 
 tha diialar is prot-^ct^d, and tixsj surplus is thrown on thosa 
 »ho miika it, as it ia your oontention that it should bs. 
 
 ar, PATTSS. I invite your attention to p iga 2, -^hieh I 
 filad, "That *Ja3 surplus pi aw b^ so gLasnded aa to pi-ovids that 
 the siiTplus loss bs apportionod aaong dairies in proportion to 
 thi'ir incr^aae in production sinca Kovambar SO, 1913.* 
 
 Ooaaai. BIR^. fhat does not sovsr your point, aoss it? 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. Th« aan who iaaa« tha incrsas-; in production 
 lindar that auggastion wouia not suffer und^jr the surplus 
 'chargs-back. 
 
 Oosiu. BIBD. But that does not cover yoiir ovm objection. 
 JTha man who mjk<in up hie production in surplus irionths has not 
 hijlptjd the thxritj, at all. Th9 man who mak»s an avcn prouuotion 
 throughout ths? year ie ri^ally accomplishing eoiofc thing to help 
 

 ■■;;-":i:V; f- v<?Cf 
 
144 
 the situation. 
 
 Mr, PATT3S. Ybb, 
 
 GonjGi, BZSB. By aa^/ing to a laan, '' increaa& production", 
 and then having him gat ihe hnXk of th^s production in May, June 
 and July, you have not h'ilptsd the thing at a2J,» 
 
 Mr, PATTES. But I hivo dat^d this >J0V5iab-,^r SO. Of course, 
 I vOTold be willing to sui»ait to any sslsctlon of date which tm 
 «i3doai of the OowmXaBion sii.ght dictate, but thlc fixtas a period 
 designed to b^ tha last day of the no aiirplus month®, as ea- 
 tablishad. so f cir oy you. 
 
 Oonsa. BIM). Yes, but ho& have you helped thd man ?/ho 
 raakos the 0v^3n prodxiction, undar tjiat? 
 
 Mr, COOK. There ienH any auch man. 
 
 Ooasa. SAWYEB. We hav^ evidsace that fimr^i are a fy^/, 
 
 Mr, PATTiiii, If I might ha givs^m »i chajrice to ^nz-f/er th© 
 Oomsaisaioner's lueetion 
 
 Ootism, BIPD. I say, hot* does this plan of yoisrs covering 
 incr^^ased produe t ion ht^lp tJie tioan who mcikss an oven production? 
 
 Hr. PAT-I^. That it b^ distributed in proportion to the 
 increase, and if -^h'^re was nt> inorease in his? caq<s ha -^-ould g8t 
 no proportion of ths siarplus charge. . ' 
 
 Oosfia* BIBD. But that doss not halp tte aan who aoicus an 
 ©van production tliroughout the year, specif iciily, as against 
 the m.in who raakes an xm&v&n production* 
 
 Mr* PATTSE. Then, yoiir jxdnd and rain^-- jxs in accord, 
 
 CosEi. BIRD. Thay ars not» baoaus-s I don't know v.-hat you 
 ara trying to get at, 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. You and I ars trying to ^^at at th?s saiae tiling, 
 and Esy proposition is that you write such a thing as I hava 
 I 8ug£;asted into the eurplu© plan, that he who nijJcee tlie surplvis 
 ehali bsar it. 
 
»«'. 
 
0.4 D 
 
 4L-45 
 Oonua, BIBD* That is what I havts suggested doing, raiiev- 
 
 ing the man who do*s not make it, Qntiraly, 1 think I aa en- 
 tirely in accord with your Ideas. 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. Are in accord with ay ideas, may b-j, but may 
 not bQ in accord with ajy langu^ige. 
 
 Gomm. SI'S!). Do you ♦^hink the language as sugsestsd hsire 
 covers that point, that thaaian who m^kas the ijven production 
 througJriout the year is relieved of all surplus charges, to 
 start with? That I3 the fundaiasntal tha,t you ire contending 
 for, isn't it? 
 
 Mr, PATTSS. I think noh, ar. Onainsan, 
 
 Soinra, MOI?BIS. You have got to experiments, a year to find 
 out* 
 
 Mr. PATTiffi. No. 
 
 Mr. OOOK. Would ba worsa off in that case, with January 
 and July oonsttmption. . ^ . 
 
 Oomm. J^UHDOCJK. What :£r. Bird is driving at is this, that 
 such a plan ao ha suggests, having avssn production, >*ould re- 
 sult in having no surplus. He wants a schema tiy ahich men 
 will bo encouraged to m^ke even production, and if the; pro- 
 duction is svan thsi-^ will be no charge -back to a msji on sur- 
 plus. 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. Yes. 
 
 Ooaun. MUBDOOh. It may be a littles too iidaaiistic at this 
 tinaj . 
 
 Hr. PATT3E. Well, it puts tha penalty of craating the 
 surplus on the man who creates it, tha;^ ie the purposa v^hich 
 ws ss^k. 
 
 Oonim. SAWYEB. You did not say that, before, 
 
 Oossas. MUHDOGK. Why do>sn*t Ur. Bird's x-ropositinn do that? 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. If it do&s, wall md good; v»o will accapt it. 
 
o. 
 
 ..■^^-iJii O 
 
146 
 
 OonHR-. BIBB. Is there any objection on the pzirt of th© 
 dealers to that clause? What do you hav.5 to say, Mr.Gusick? 
 
 Mr. OUSIOK. All I can oay is, as Mr, Whiting has just 
 suggested, that perhaps if you have a recess committee on this 
 thing your committee might be able to thresh it out. But it is 
 a pretty broad lusstion to consider offhand. 
 
 Ooam. srPD. Tou hava no objection to putting the surplus 
 on tna mm who creates it? 
 
 Hr. OUSIOK. Absolutely nona, if you can do it, 
 
 Ooiam. BIBD. And there would be no objection to classify- 
 ing the dairies according to thoss aaking even production 
 throughout th-^ year? 
 
 Mr. OUSICK. Well, if I undu'rgtand your proposition, it 
 would si-cjan asparating the men ~«ho maJse the evsn pi-oduction from 
 the otiaars. That would a-ian practically each month? 
 
 Coaffi, BIRD, ^or the year. 
 
 Jar. OUSIGK. Wall, starting thv first month, you hav© 
 your production, and gjt your figures, and go on. But the 
 producer has not yet astabiishad an aven production. 
 
 Ooasa. BIT?!). Well, ,£0 back ovor your past y:;ar and t^k© 
 the dairies which hava not V;iried loX aaid pay thes the- full 
 ; price right along, 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. And thon tc&s all the surplus and charge it 
 off ajsong tJia other fellows? 
 
 Comsi, SIHD. v-$s. 
 
 Mr. aUSICK. Certainly, thare is no objection to that. 
 
 Gormn. SA^YEB. How many of those would you have, at first? 
 
 Mr. WHITING. jfiftean p-:ir c-ant. 
 
 Mr. OUSICK. J?o, you won*t have 15/,- not 5/. 
 
 Consa. BIM). I am not talking about percantaga, but about 
 t>he principle of tm thing. 
 
. ; > X 'S^' ■' 
 
 3\lQi'W 
 
147 
 Sir. CUSLOK. The principle is the onxy scientific principle 
 to buy milk on. 
 
 Ooaaa. BIBD. Then, you accept it? 
 
 Mr. CUSIcac. Accept the principle, sure. 
 
 CoflBu BISD. working the thing out might be a subject for 
 discussion, but the principle is ace 3p ted. 
 
 Sir. OUSIOK. The principle of the surplus going onto the 
 fallow who ffiakss the surplus. 
 
 Coaan. BIIJ), You accept it, then? 
 
 ^Jr. ^'^5IC!K. Sura. 
 
 Coram. BII^JD. How about you, ilr. Saars? 
 
 Hr« SSARS. My clients say that is similar to the aap 
 
 plan. Tha map plan theoretically was a vory fine one, but ths 
 
 practical frorking out of the map plan resulted xn the ^npr^ca- 
 
 d'snttid aili strike of 1910. Co they faei that, although sshames 
 
 of that kmci ^y bfe capable of succassful practical woricins out, 
 
 they feouia not want to coiaajit thsasuivss in any way an advance, 
 
 bacauaa it raisas the- 'ludstxon about two prisas. whether you 
 
 can hu,v- two prices without having; troiible. That ia rsry 
 
 serious as a practical luestion * ^ «- „ ^ t-.*^-« 
 
 * * — two i.-ric-ic at tine sx-ne station.. 
 
 Ooam. BIIiD. But you acc-ipx, th© principle that tiia surplus 
 should b^ piacad on thosa who producij it? 
 
 Mr* SJ3AHS. If it can ba practically worked out, yas. 
 
 Zomi, SI3D. Then, you do acoopt ths principle ot it? 
 
 Hr, 3MSS* ?ha principle of it is sound. 
 
 ar. COSIOK. Sure. 
 
 Coiaa. LiUBBOCi:. ^e -all agr^e on a juat paacaJ 
 
 Ur, BPO'iSTH. Just what do you a^an by "evan production'? 
 3o3En. 3I1C Production ^iiat do^s not vary beyond a car- 
 tain parc^ntas-a in ta« a^^iaiua and lainixaum months. 
 
45 ^s ju^<a 
 
 c ..'.:. A o ■"-;.* '^ 
 
 :, iJ.'fi>'OS B'i. 
 
 :>;.. r^iit.r/VT n^, 
 
143 
 CoiJHa, SAVSYSTl. I would liice to aslc Jr. Cusick a luestton, 
 
 for inforraation. Waan't tii«j trouble witli tha laap pla« tiiat it 
 
 was an agre&m&nt between the daalera and producers and that 
 
 there was supposed to be no third party, unbiased, to control 
 
 it, no arbitration coaaaittas to handle it? 
 
 Mr. OOSIOK. I don't think that was it, froia raj mamory 
 of it. I think that plan was suggostsd by soffls fara^r vary 
 much intoreeted in this even production proposition. Ut was 
 workad out between the farmers and dealers. It was not my 
 knowledge — and I knew something about the- strike of 1910 — 
 that the map plan had anything to do »ith that. I know the 
 reason why t>ie laap plan was stopped by soma of our companies 
 was because the United States Government said it was a vsry 
 significant piece of evidenc-i; that we had ccanbined to axoku 
 prices. It was ths principal pi«c© of avidencs they had in ths 
 indictment brought against us in tha United Stat-ss Ootirt. 
 Tharsfors, the thins was stopped, 
 
 Oomm. SAWYEB* It wag no fault of the map plan itself? 
 
 Mr. GUSIOK* Ho. 
 
 Mr, SSABS* Mr. Hood says that there »#as great difficulty 
 with the practical oparation of the map plan, in that it made 
 two prices at t'rm ssubq station. 
 
 Oonea. SAWTSB* Ho provision for arbitrating niatters, was 
 there, either? 
 
 Mr. GUSIOF:. I don't think thsr© was. It made a diff^ii-snt 
 price to every dealer. Tho dciiler, if he ko-pt -«ithin a cer- 
 tain production whan milk was short, got a certain pric^:, and 
 in times of over-production, w,h«n there ^as a flood of iailk, 
 he got so much ii^gts. It ^as laade plain in i& written contract, 
 ansi I think they all understood it. 
 
 Goaim. BIBD. Might hav® five prices at ono station undvsr 
 

 ± i 
 
 •X,: n ^ 
 
 yJt- 
 
149 
 tha map plan? 
 
 i?r. CUSICSK:. Might ha,v& daan a different price to every 
 farmer, for that matter. It was built for that. It vjas a 
 straight contract for everybody, if one producer, along those 
 lines of even production, auccisaed within the pjrcsntage 
 allowed for over production, ho got th^ flat pries. If he made 
 more railk than that, whan tjhe mlUc was short here in Boston, h^ 
 got an increased price for his mxlk* On the otn^r hand, if he 
 made more ailk when the taarkat was flooa^d, he got a dacriased 
 prise for it. 
 
 Gomm. SAWYS1>. I gat you. 
 
 Chairman ALL?3?. leli, xve will take the jsiattsr undsr 
 advisement. 
 
 2£r. PATTES. V7a xmclsrstood that the matt-sr of surplus for 
 I>ocamber was l^aft over for the Ooncaission at this tiae. As I 
 have stated bafore» we have proce^dsd on the itse'umption that 
 there waa to be no surplus ohAr^-biOj& in DsGambeT, and iiavs 
 assumed, and wsj still assxs^, in the abaj-nce of any evidence 
 to the- contrary Y .--;-,- 
 
 Hr. GUSIOK. Mr* Chainaan, it is now luartar of five, and 
 I still have the accountants here. Thtiy ai-e vary busy man, and 
 I am goin/: ^-o -^sk you again if you cannot stsnd tkam out to seo 
 if they cannot get thaee cross-figures in condition for to- 
 morrow morning. If we are going into these surplus figures 
 for DQCQmhor at this time, it will take anothtor hour. 
 
 Ohairman ALLEN. I understand that Ur« Pattee has simply 
 asked for a ruling of the Oommiasion on surplus figures for 
 
 Mr. PATTKS. We ware toid that the prec-int pris-^s would 
 continue during tha cionth of Beceniber, and aseumed tliat tlie 
 surplus was a part of the price. If thsrs is a different 
 
i 
 
 
150 
 uni^ratonding, ws *ouicl like to >jaow it. 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK* Thora is a decidedly diffyr^nt und-...- re landing. 
 I hive papers here to subaiit to the Qouuaiasion, your oan i©t- 
 tai^ and pap<?rs. I hivsn't thasm with bjij now. I did not coins 
 hers today for that purpose, but I want to submit thoo'S. Oxur 
 understanding is tiiat the regiilar surplus plan is in eff^act in 
 De comber. 
 
 Chairman ALLSN. I think that is a mattar for the 0ommi8sio% 
 to rule upon. 
 
 Mr. OUSIGK. I suppos:i tiiey want to hear our •^vid^jnce and 
 want to know about tha situation before raoking the ruling? 
 
 Ohairaian ALLEK. Ws do, I suppose ws can i^ave that for 
 tomorrow morning? 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. Yae. 
 
 Ohairaian ALISN. ifow, hlr» CJusick, what is your suggestion 
 in regard to the accountants? 
 
 ^r. aU3I3K. I find by tha cost shaet submitted by the 
 GoECTissioners' accoxmtant that in Eomo ports it is notiuite 
 in accordance ^ith ths books. ThsrefortJ, without a oonfsrance 
 between ISr, Hawkins and his principal ^nd our aecount;mt8 and 
 our principal, vq cannot intelli^je-ntly discuss certain dis- 
 crepanoias that appear between ths two accounts, which shoiJLd 
 be cieariad up bo as to m&ke ths?a comparabls. My suggestion 
 is that ihs Oomfflission direct Mr. Hawkins to taks tham up with 
 Mr. Wellington, the partios b^ing present, and sea if thscs 
 tsro figures can be male coiaparabla, pr-sdnting tha results in 
 ■sritin^ *o ths Coi^jission in the morning. 
 
 Chairman ALLES. Cannot you st.xte the diff srancys 'nar-s, 
 
 now? 
 
 Mr. OUSIGK. I will ougs«si that Mr. Wellington stile the 
 difftirsnces. Hs ie b^jtter informed on the matter than I am. 
 
^^nr 
 
 Chairman AIJLSN, All right. 
 
 STATEiliiMT BY ^. 0. OLIYm mZtimTOlU 
 
 Q (By Chaino'in Alion.) Mr. Wellington, can you state to tli® 
 
 Ooaaaission in a re% words just what these dirfdrancee are that 
 yoia say hava to t>e threshed out? A.» There aT& soras diiT- 
 
 ferenci&s in the doliiar and cant figures which we wovild llks 
 to aak luostions about, and a tevi of thes! are so larga that 
 it, appeardd that the expenses sers oi^gifi»d in a sojaeifhat 
 difforwnt eav. We thought if w?» coiild go over ths asattar 
 with Mr« Haijfkins and find out exactly what ha put in and how 
 litj divid-sd his expenses, it would says ti^ Tor ths Oosaiission, 
 and «<s coxiid than be surs that we wsra on the samo basic. Th®n, 
 on the unit sheets, anJ cost p->r luurt and par pint in th@ 
 various elaseif icatione, thB figiares iis submitted for H. ?. 
 Sood ?c Sons do not follow tht? fonfi ra^uired by the Coajniocion. 
 The Uif f .^-rancij is nut of ^r-jat importance except that the pints 
 sold ^holsjsala are not shown at ali» 
 
 Obalrisaa ALLIS* It Bn&mi to trie Ooisausaicn that wo should 
 adjourn the ^enoral session nov/ and go into executlvs sossion, 
 continuing the dij^cussion in rijgard to thBB9, figurae for a few 
 moments. ?h© moating, tharefors, will adjourn to 10«.>C o'elocJc 
 toisorrow gfsorninft and evorybody will ratiro except tho i>artio5 
 in intarTJSt haro who wish to 5 a heard in regard tD thass 
 figure-s. ^o I v<ill now call tm oxscutiV'S sassir-n, and th« 
 ra^ular jseeting ^sfiil adjourn -until 10. oO o'clock toaiorro«f 
 sornlng. 
 
 {?ho raguly-r s<^sslon w-ris s.djoui'nad* ) 
 
€ 
 
:-^: 
 
 ■ <: 
 
 -..i?^ :ic:. usrs 
 
 S ■■., 
 
 v . 
 
 
 .- %.■'•-.: ■■■■• ■. • '■ k»i'r ■■" ... :-^..- •■ . . ■. - .;. ■ ■- -I 
 
^ 
 
IH SXEOUTIVB S33SI0IT. 
 
 Goam. BIBD. Mr. Whiting, I undarstand that yoiir company 
 feels that ther© is so2i--t>iir^ that you want to gat ironad out 
 here, sosaa diff er^snces ofallocation. Go ahoad, ^» Wellington. 
 
 Mr. WSLLI¥OTOH. If you r^fer to the dollars and c^-nts 
 sheet, antitled "Oonsolidatsd sta tenant of Whole iiilk Opera- 
 tions, Month of Sspt'ifroiOsr, 191S" , I hav^j bafore ma the two 
 shiest a. 
 
 Ooaia. BIUD. You are talking of your sh-^et or of tits 
 Kood 302ipany's sheet? 
 
 Mr. WSLLI?fGT02s. I hav« both of them bafors me, for com- 
 parison. I thinlv thatis probably fAut oaot '^ay to bring out 
 the dif f^rsiHcee . Th<.? first itam that varitss apj^raoiably is 
 the it«sm for ice, which corresponds with thd iteia of rufrigar- 
 ation in city expansas. Tii5 coat as ahown by tVie Hood etata- 
 ment is considerably less, I should liKe- to ask Sr. Hawkins 
 if that includes ail the costs of ict?? 
 
 Mr. HAWKIHS. Are you sp-aaicing of Ui& iom of tbd country 
 expanse or tlri« refrigeration of the city expenses? 
 
 Mr. WSILi:^GTON. Both of thea are so far below the other 
 floras that I raise the same jutjstion on both. As to tiie 
 cost of ice xmdor country exp^ans'^ and tiie coat of refrigera- 
 tion laidcr the; hoad of city axj^ensas, in both casas the figurvas 
 of tha Kood Company sjem rathar los, and I wonted to bj sure 
 that thay classified thfe items as *y did. 
 
 Mr. EAWKISS. Under tlie heading of country expense for 
 icc» they h-iva analysed something liite 150 accounts, r^pr.js<int- 
 ing tha expanse icoounts of country stations. 
 
».i 
 
 .i ',: *> ^• 
 
 ;Oij.i- 
 
 ..■*•■*.• ,. V5. ■ 
 
 a I 
 
 i-ci.-ff-vt 
 
^ 
 
 Mr. WSLIINGTON. I see. 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. And v»9 hav^ taken out from those accounts 
 the charges for ica Ahich are reprASdntad. We did not ^ up 
 to the country stations to osa the ict? put in. 
 
 Hr, WSLLIHOTO!?. Neither did we. 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. We assumed that, »lii;re th.^re sas a charge 
 for ic« in the country station, that sus the charge for ice, 
 
 Mr. WSLLINOTON. I s«e. 
 
 Sr. HAimrS. We have her© so:as thing lilcs about 175 
 country stations shown In charges for ictf,nere. Those can be 
 taktn off, if necessary. 
 
 ^. WSIXIITGTON. I don't thinic it is nwcessary, unidss 
 tha Oofflmission das ires it. 
 
 Mr. HA'Sl^lTSS. iiirthermore, the Ciiarge for ic^j is reduced 
 proportionately, on the basis first between mil}!: and cream 
 voluae, ind thfjn between quarts of milk at the country station 
 and quarts of ciilK V^^n for tdie purpose of this statement. 
 
 Hr. ISfeLIIfGTOH. The proportion borne by the Boston ao- 
 counta? 
 
 Mr. KAWVIHS. Yes. If you would liKa to icnow what the 
 total charge for ice is, the total charge for ica in 'hi counJxy 
 is |2,700, whils the proportion vmich ipplisis to this st-atemsnt 
 is 11,290. 
 
 Mr. WSLLINGTOK. In this connection, in comparing tiiose 
 collar and cent figures, I think we should have an exact figure 
 of the total volume handled by E. ?. Kood 5- .'^ons. Thu state- 
 ment, as requested by the Soajraisiaion, .souid sxiow family, whole- 
 sale, bottle and can cost par quart of whole .iiilk, ma on a 
 separate statement the cost per pont of whole rallk, divids;d 
 between fajaily and wholesale bottle. The statement as pre- 
 
^iltt 
 
 f ' > -.•IJ. i ;*'."':' : l>..utf "J ?■-■ 
 
sentad by H. ?• Hood & Sons ahowa only family pint.5, not whoia- 
 sale pints. 
 
 Mr, HAWKINS. I will admit I was undar the impriJSsion that 
 only family pints wore desired. The cost of wholasalii yints 
 wotild be tht* same down to ths point of delivery, and approxi- 
 aatsly divided by 2-l/2. 
 
 Mr. WjSLLINOTON. Kava you the volume? «e are mora in- 
 terested in the voluaie. 
 
 Mr. HAWKIMS. I think I ha,vs 8ha*n it thare. 
 
 Mr. WSLLIHGTOH. Ho, you haven't shoim the voiuma. 
 
 Mr. HAIFJHS. Noj I can givu that to you, though, I guess. 
 Vhftt is the itjestion? 
 
 Mr. WELLIHGTO}!. As to the total volume of whole miUc 
 sold — that is, the gramd total. 
 
 Mr. HAr/JNS. Within the Boston district? 
 
 Mr. WSLLlMaTOH. T«s. 
 
 'ir. KAWKIHS. T?*itail or whole sola? 
 
 Mr. WSLLIHGTOH. Sverything put together, or figxires so 
 that it can be put together. 
 
 Sr. HAWKINS. You ar's considering now aodifiad Biilk, 
 buttanniUt, skim lailX,— 
 
 Sir. OUSIOK. lo; fluid whole lailK. 
 
 Mr. HAWTIHS. Weil, if you t^e my tigur^ thara and add 
 175,290 pints, vmich is tlm quantity of pints sold wholesale 
 within the Boston district, I guess that is what you want, 
 
 Mr. WSLLISGTOS. How, what dia you do v¥ith that 175,000 
 pints? Did thsy go into the wholesale quarts, or wer^J they 
 left out entirely? 
 
 Mr. HAWKIHS. ilo, sir; left out entirely. 
 
 Mr. ISLLINOTON. I see. 
 
 Mr. HAWVJHS. That leaves 37,000 quarts of mili; out of 
 

 -:'■), 
 
 ^VlXC j.V :,.- 
 
 
 .i/;ti&X0fi^ 
 
 * .; ,;. s- I >.. -■ ii.. 
 
2,543,000 and soaji odd. 
 
 Oonan. BI"RD. What diffsrsnce would that, maSca in those 
 f Iguros? 
 
 Mr. HABTKIHS. ?fo difforsnce at all, 
 
 2&r, OUSICK. You say thore would not bs any diffdrenca In 
 your loss here, taftting into eonsidoration that 175,000 pints? 
 
 Mr. HAWKIFS. If thera was a loss. 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. Thard certainly was a loss. 
 
 Mr. HAWKISrS. You )inow that. I don't. 
 
 Hr. CtlSIGT?:. Yes, air, I know that. 
 
 Cofflffl. SAWYER. Mr. HawKins, was that 175,000 pints, or 
 175,000 luarts in pints? 
 
 jlr. KAWKIFS. 175,290 pints, or 87,645 quarts. If it was 
 one mill a quart, it woiild ba about |87. If you should ^por- 
 tion that mill ov^r t?/o irtillion quarts, I don't know whare you 
 would lind. 
 
 Mr. WSLLIS'GTOH. Of course, nobody i.now3 whether ths ons 
 aaiil is a correct figure. 
 
 Mr. HAWKCFS. Wo, and I don't know evsn -^h^^th^r it is a 
 gain or a loss. 
 
 Mr. WSLLIHGTOH* On this same quastiion of classification* 
 you hava a heading •Kot-3is ^na Bsstaurants, Quarts.* What 
 doss that rtiprssant,- tha totai aiUc sold hotels and restaurants 
 or thii total sold in cans? 
 
 Mr. HAUiaif?. That reprijssnts railK sold in S-l/2 quart 
 cans* 
 
 }£r, WSLLIHGTOH, And "Store Quarts" includes hotsls and 
 restaurants? 
 
 Sr. HAWKINS. ?fo; quarts of aillc s<|ld in bottias. 
 
 Ur, WSILIHOTOH. Whether to store, hotels or anything? 
 
 Mr. IiAWKIKS. Weil, lat laa soa. I will answer that in a 
 
'Ji'J^l'. 
 
 •i,^"* 
 
 -ijii f,-r 
 
 
 
 :r..l. )C.i.v;^ ^; .!,..;..• 
 
 ;*':X';^ i-CnC . ■'*;-• . 
 
 *(. V %, i^ 
 
minute. Whit is the qua st ion? 
 
 ar. WSLLIHGTCSr. Whether the coliffiin haaded "Store Quarto" 
 includes all sold to atorss? 
 
 Mr, HAWaUS. You will hava to asjSE. the jjj-iYgra that be- 
 cause we classify thesa quarts undur mixed whoiesal© routes, 
 tmder purs ho ttie routes , undar mixed fa.7illy routes , and also 
 eoiMf pure family routes. Now, ^ust w.hare they ware sold I 
 
 didn* t invea tigate . 
 
 Mr. WELLIMGTOS. The Ooaoaiagion re-iueeted at the last 
 
 hearing that that olasaif iceition h^, family, wholesale bottle, 
 
 and Citne. 
 
 Mr, iiAWKIMS. Yaa. W-3li, thsrs was no classificatxon of 
 that available, so we undjrtooig. to show the oost of bottled 
 fflilk sold whoiasald. 
 
 Mr* WSLLIHSTOH. Shethar it was to a hotal, a restaurant 
 ©r a stars? __ /•■.;■ :•■': 
 
 Mr. HAWltlMS. I cannot see where tiiatt would mak© v^ry 
 siuoh diffi^renc®. 
 
 2a* » WIXLIHITOK. I »i*.nt-3d to b® smrv of th-3 volume. 
 
 Mr. EAITiawS. Oh, my volume is all right. 
 
 Mr, WSLLIHOTOM. 15i© "Store Quarts* you show aa 589,000, 
 xmdijr "Store Quarts', and undar *Jiat«i8 and Ba e taur a>n ts, Quar ts" , 
 337,^300. 
 
 Mr, HAW13HS. That means in c:m^, 
 
 Mr. WSLLIHOTON. StricUy. 
 
 Mr, KAWl-eiHS. And the other moans in bottles. If you 'want- 
 's d to gst til at, you would probably hav3 "o hxve tha arivars in 
 here. 
 
 Mr, ISLLI^GTOW. Of coursa.we went to the routes and dx- 
 vided thsia up, 
 
 Mr. HAi;/¥lH5. The f«;-liovi- who sold to hotsis wouldn't think 
 
, id'::. 
 
 
 » frii?!' '■ "■ 
 
 * V.-*- 
 
 
6 
 
 of sailing any milic to a stox*© at all. 
 
 Mr. MILLETT. As I understand it, this •Store Quarts* in- 
 oludos all tha wholesale bottlsd alUs:. 
 
 Mr. RAWfJm* Yes. 
 
 Mr. MUXSTT. And th.Q "iioteis and l?estaurants,Q^uarts* , 
 wholasala can milk? 
 
 Mr. KAWiaMS. Yes. 
 
 Mr. HSLLINOTON. ^iSfeXl, the haaalng is not cies^r, and I 
 wanted to bs sure. 
 
 Mr. HAWyiNS* Soli, sfc a^^cae on that. 
 
 Mi". WSILISOTOIJ. On tiiat lu.-jstion of ice, again, did you 
 tsike thii astutU. d-yponse i'or ice for that ons aonth, or wag 
 that a proportion? TJiat is, t??jra thssra any records of th^ 
 corapanT which showed the> €S<act £>a3r-fflsnts for icie in that par- 
 ticuiar month, or wae that tho proportion over a period of 
 sa-onths that inade a f&ir charge for that raonth of Saptesbar? 
 
 Mr. HAWKIJT3. %"a ':ooi; ^^a*.' charges t>xat indiCRted lo© on 
 til© booKs of t.hs eoiupany* As I said, sve tiidn*t go up tc tlis 
 stations to sae tlaat tir;at actual amount of icfi ^agt actually 
 
 put in UB9. 
 
 Sr. aSLLIHQlDEi. Would Qiat ba- tins ic» p-urchaasd in, that 
 Kjcnth, stored and usau in later aontiia? 
 
 Mr. ilAlKI^S. It t-iOuid bti tiiA loti us«(i tijat iiiOntii, I 
 Bhoula say. 
 
 Mr. WJSLIIKGTOS'. Tiiking the inventory each month? 
 
 Mr. HAWiaKS. Y&e. 
 
 Mr. MILLEYT. Hot th« exact ice, but approximately an in- 
 ventory at the end of »ach month. That is what it amo-onte to, 
 
 in affect. 
 
 Mr. tSLLINOTOJr. Talking your f i^uras for ice in the 
 
 country and rufrig^ration in the city the f ignore saeina to bs) a 
 
r"> :\ y * .■ 
 
 ,. :ofe.;i*-r,p-v,J'i... t 
 
 ■."■. i i'.<s 
 
 h7«4 
 
 :!' -■;•..... ;? -iiJ i/hS.:.; >:;;!; 
 
 :-^i.jil^>:^ dlA;;,-- 
 
 - -^ '^ 15 ■ V 
 
v<^ry low one. 
 
 Mr, KAWyJHS. What is the question? 
 
 Mr. WBa[J.IH070H. Your rsfrigeraticn cost is considerably 
 less tiian that of B. Whiting. 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. Yes. 
 
 Mr. WSLLINGTOK. And I a'ondered if you had evarythlng in 
 thara that belonged txit^re. 
 
 Mr. EAWKIIfS. I had everything that was on the booKs. 
 
 Mr. !KELLIHGTOS. Well, is it a fact that th3 Hood Oompany 
 aake th^ir ovm ice, instss^ of purchaaing it? 
 
 Mr, HAWKINS. Mr. Millatt says no. I am not familiar with 
 that. 
 
 Mr. W3LLIIT0TCN. That wovild reprsfSent the total purchasas 
 of iC9? 
 
 Mr, MILLSTT. Psprseonts all ice vsed. 
 
 Mr. WSIXIHOTOH. I •arae raisings thd lutsstion, because I 
 could not account for 'he fact that your ic3 cost, your ra- 
 frigeration coat, \»3e less than a quarter of D. Whiting & Sens', 
 according to ths oonsclidatsd statemant, ani the Aldan figur<3S 
 show about the same proportion as compared witii ths Whiting 
 figures, the Aldan figurss for r dfrig^sration,- |l,28Q, as com- 
 pared with your $1,477, -xni. th« volume of Alien Brothers is 
 about ons-fifth or sixth. 
 
 Oosira. SAWYiill?. I would like to asfe right hers, rdf srring 
 to tha Whitings, do you have artificial ri^'frigeration or do 
 you buy iC3? 
 
 Mr. OUSIOK. W» have some artificixL, and 'iite buy also. 
 I Coiam. SAWY5;B. Ko* is it i^ith tha Hoods? 
 
 Mr. MIILSTT. Ws hav9 gome artificial refrigeration, but 
 there is no way to jcaap that distinct from our general fuel 
 and power account. It is not a v^ry large sxim. 
 
^ ., -. » * < 
 
 * ^noi. 
 
 ■'.i.-, ^iiSil 
 
 1' ■':' "^.^f. "-K ■ ■"-■ "a .^'\- -, '-.: \ 
 
 '">:'ii-'^>-.^:: c^. 
 
aomra, SAWYHf?. "Vou uaa ioe, too? 
 
 Mr» M^XSTT. Usq ice, too. 
 
 Ur, aUSIOK^ This figure of tha Hools for ioe is about 
 one-fifth of oure, and about ona-fifth, for thtj volxaae, of 
 Aids no' . 
 
 COEun, S'tfAYj:!l» I understand. 
 
 Mr, ISLLI^CTOU. teOfiera would that it«® for th& ojctra cost 
 of fuel or poaar that you would hava, appear? If it does not 
 appear in the rsfrigaration, it znust havw cost thsj company 
 soai(3 thing to cool that isilk, imd undar whiit xtis® would it com-3, 
 if not uni«r •Befrigeratlon*? 
 
 Mr, iOLLiiTf. Under h^^at, light and pcvar,- couldn't b© 
 anywhdre else, 
 
 Mr. WELLIHGTOSr. That is, in that cam© city .JXi^nasa 
 classification, haat, light and powsr? 
 I Mr. MIIXETT. Yas,_ 
 
 Goiam. SA'^YSH. Mr. liillington, take shsst 2 of D. 
 j Whiting, the last coluian, undar "Cans", that figure 525,043 
 is luarts? 
 
 Mr. '^SLLIKaTOH. Yaa. 
 
 Oom&, SAWY3B. ICot ctins? 
 
 Mr. WSLLIHOTOW. Quarts, d^ivered in cans. 
 
 CJosasi. SAWYSS* Yss, that is as I undaratood it. 
 
 Ml-. UAWIBB* That is all ri^ht. 
 
 Mr. WELLINGTON. Is that Ice bought in Boston or in the 
 country? 
 
 Mr. liAWia:HS. Mr. Millet t can :inswer trxat. I aon't buy 
 the ice. 
 
 Mr. 2IILLSTT. Soas bought in ths country and eoiae shipped 
 in to us. 
 
 Mr. WSLLIHOTON. I suppose you contract ahead, don't buy 
 
froai day to day, but contract ahecui? 
 
 Mr« HAWyiNS. I don't ISnow how they do buy it. 
 Sir. lELLISQTO!?. If you contract for a year's supply in 
 tha country and it coa-is dowi piecerasal, there is a shrinkage 
 betwft'sn *hiit vou bny ar<3 what you finally aret, and I Wia,nte<5 
 to know wheth-~r thie month Yuxf: Its prrper proportion. 
 
 Mr. 7.in:.LKT7. It is all apivOitiomcl, th« proper 
 parcenta?^©. 
 
 Mr, WSIiUKiTOK. BecJiusf th3 amount purchased by 
 Alfl^r. Frcth«re is alnoi-t aa muoh as your- figure, ind your 
 srolura? ia fiv2 ti:.i-2s as much. 
 
 Mr. iJlLLlTT. I won't attempt to eiv in rssia^^ 
 to th^at , beciue3 ! don't k:^o«. 
 
 Mr. ?'^LLIKv?OH\ I .just »ar.ts<3 to have th?t Ti^.ixrBB 
 arranrsd for purpose e cf coriparlson in ths esfaa «ay, eo 
 that tha:/ could c-s compared. Ths next question is the coet 
 of cans iTid stopple e. The it-^^n is tl,055, under che head- 
 ing of "Country Expanse. * 
 
 Mr. "AfKI??-S. What do you ^.sr.t to know .about it? 
 
 Mt. rSLLIHlTOSi. Wh^-it kin-? cf 5 teas sent in, — 
 thf soEt of c^ns purch^E'Sd (luring ths aonth, repairs «f cujib? 
 
 Mr. HAWKIKS. T think It is ths depreeia.t ion on 
 the c-iiTis. 
 
 Mr. fTHlLIJIITCK. But all dssprsciation ?fas cupposed 
 to "ba down undar "Fixed Ohargee." 
 
 Mr. HAfKDJE. f© didn't put %h^ dap re ci cation on 
 cans ther^ -wh^n wg h-ad a special cl^ssif ic-ttion for it, I 
 think. 
 
 CosL^alssionsr SAI?T2K, I would lika to "b? sure 
 of the m&tter. I belisva ws -irs now tiilj?iris^ of cana -^nd 
 
s ..< 
 
10 
 
 etopplas, and I eao that triors ie «tleo an iter? for car.s and 
 8toppl9 6 uiidsr "TV* livery Ixpene®.* So«, you would 
 
 hftvs sO!s» repairs? 
 
 Mr. HA1?KIRS. Y^e, tinemith charts. That is here. 
 
 Oeasi. SAW^rSR. What doea evgrythirsin^ but d« pre ela- 
 tion a®.o«nt to? — ?h%t ie, if yoti huve it, approxtea.tsXy? 
 
 Mr. HAWKIHS. $153.56, charga for fixing the csna 
 in the cGuntry. 
 
 ¥r. WSLLIN'ITOK. And ths ■balarce ie deprs elation? 
 
 Mr. O'JSI^K. And oare, $23.96. 
 
 Mr. fSIXISuTOK. vour c«is and stopples, country 
 expanse, l«ss deprsclitlon, is |183.55. 
 
 Mr. H^tWKTSS. Th .t is net the total. I took th» 
 total cart oharga, apportioned. I took the total can charge. 
 
 Mr. WSLLIilTOK. The dsprsclation should h-*v« 
 "bsan d©«n in t.^a bottora figure, in the •Fixad Charges." 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. If that ie bo, amd I believe it ie, 
 th«n T did not und^retand this particular elaself icat ion 
 eorr-actly. 
 
 Oorni. SAWTfR. Ir*t ^-aek yoti, Mr. Hawkin©, to 
 cli&ar this up. Tour c^ne and stoppleg fleure is $1,066.34. 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. In th*» country, 
 
 Ooma. SAWyER. That is right, isn't it? 
 
 Mr. HAWKISS. It s%y8 hers imdar 103, rsfsrring 
 to cane and etopplss, that to this aeeount "sh^l be 
 charged daprtci'it ion, repairs aaid recovery expanee on the 
 cans ueed in the country.* 
 
 Co?5HB. SAWYSR, JuBt a minute. Answer the question. 
 
 Mr. HAWEIRS. I don't know whether that is rijrht, 
 Hr. Wellington, byt that is what it saye. 
 
f>Ct.- 
 
 trf^ 
 
 la ;.\') 
 
 ■ ■}'t('^^-Art>' '<cXL^'t\i 
 
 giseJ' 
 
 -1 > ' \ i-r'^y 
 
 ■ •-•;■ ^f :■ 
 
 :.i :v'/r-:vtr 
 
 
 
11 
 
 Comm. SAtySR. fall, just misv&r aiy qusetion. 
 That H,0<56,5>4 covers the deprsciation of ems'? 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. In tha coxmtry, 
 
 Ocmm. 8AWTSH. io* , Mr. Wallins^ton, youre do^s net 
 cover depre ola»tioT3? 
 
 Mr. WSLLIR-aTON. Tee. I will call your attention 
 to th« naxt atattawjnt, which has account nuEifcera on it, 
 smd there our can© amd etopple^ itsm doa» includ® deprs ela- 
 tion, at© it is 35y und^retar.diisg that it should. But, at tl::^ 
 express request of th« Ooamiaeion, in preparing this dollars 
 «md cdnts etatemsnt, ws ware requasted to taKa out all 
 iutar^afe, t€oc»B, inBurar»cs and daprsoiation, and show them 
 at th® l?ottom, and thoe© oHtounts a^ppaar tinder "Fixad 
 Charges," in statement No. 1. 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. Waten't that suggestion aiaendsd? 
 
 Mr. r^LLIBaTOfS. Thsre was a st^ttesaant in the 
 masting to th® effect tha-t I have sugsestad, ,, • . _ 
 
 Mr, HAWKINS, This particular paragraph 103 wae 
 BOt sysendeS, thoijgh, was it? , : 
 
 Mr. cansiOK. For figuring unit costs that ^as 
 followed, hut this statement So. 1 has always b«en supposed 
 to sho* all the fixed charges jjrowped i*t the hottom. On 
 our shaat h@r« you «ill sea ttw items referred to given in 
 th« fixed QtiiSLTg^B at the hotton of th9 8h^^^t. 
 
 Mr. BAfKISS. Yes, but th« t«xt of cha report 
 doss not ahow tha,t , so I followed tha t9xt. 
 
 Mr. WtLLimiOn. t®ll, if you oaii, giv® \:s sithsr soi 
 sx»et or approxiaatie figurs of the amoimt for cans and stop- 
 ples, actually spsnt in th© country, ■?© can figiira that up. 
 
- .?■«*:,' .'J 
 
 r'c-i- r? ' -- ■* 
 
 ai ?^' ■ ■y/Ci/j. 
 
 H-^-i'- n 
 
 ^V^siwlrt? 3it'rt X 
 
 ■0 .^^i i-j.-\ 
 
 »/i?r;.j?. 
 
 
 S. -i i> :^' ■'■ ■ .* 
 
 
 
12 
 
 Mr. HAWKI8S. I wouldn't care to do thtit, unlese 
 I had actually fisured th«n^ out , 
 
 Mr. tSLLIKlTO?i. I Bupposa you would IsQ billing to 
 BuTsmlt an, tstiraats, an approxinuit ion? 
 
 Mr. HA.WKIBE. ATt«r I figure it cmt, I will. 
 
 Ooasi. BAfVVR, j,0{; -5BJQ ask yoii a questioti, Mr, 
 Hasfkine. If that dapraciation had 'beQc included, as you 
 eay it has, in thiit item, of csfcne ar^d etopplsB, it, of 
 courss, would T?ot ?a.pp32u* agair, in dspraciation at £h& "oottosi 
 ef tha pa2«? 
 
 Mr. HA^KISS. Ho, sir. 
 
 COMM. 8A1FYIR. Wher^aa, if yoa h?id not included 
 it, Mr. Wellinfton, in yo^ir "Ostns and Stopples' under 
 "Country "ffxp^Rce,* It wculd app«&r down in your d^pi^ecia- 
 tion? 
 
 Mr. rSI.LIH070F. It do<»8 so appear, 
 
 OdsaJ. SAWYSH. It is eldsply the differsr^c^ in 
 
 your v!f«,y of grouping th* flgurse, and jou are tryin.^ to 
 etiow th%t tn« book h«r« h&s not been followed exactly? 
 
 Mr. fm.LIK3TGH. Trying to get th« two eats of 
 figures oc th« safns baeie, that Is all. 
 
 Mr, HAWKINS. Er. fsiliKgton ie trying to ehow 
 that I did not get the msbs^querrt instruct jcne. Is that 
 the idea? 
 
 Mr. WELLINl'TOW, Mc. In th« "book, cf course, 
 the accounts ar© numb^rad. No, 103 is wnat you have 
 referred to islr@?*dy, in (Explanation; bat for ens dollara 
 6knd ©ante »tafc«m«nt thss book requires tha dollaira and cents 
 for d«pr<9cSation to tea all grouped tof9th«r in one place 
 at tha Ijottoa. 
 
- i f 
 
 ;::>.:,.,: 5 . »'^.i^ >'-'\, t-ri.::- ^;;~' 
 iO 3 3 SJ 0*:i *iij .f'^T :^;'' 
 
 . <: «";•■.!-■ 
 
 
13 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. Does this book show that? 
 
 Mr. tlI.LIR3T0K. It is my lmpr«g8lon that it ao«B. 
 
 Mr. OTSICK. Orj the 'blus print, not in ths book; 
 "but th<z bltis print ie part of the 'book. It s-^yei, "1037 
 in the book. That le tha nnit cost. This $1,066.24 that 
 yo\2 r^fer to, Mr, Fawyer, is not all depreciation. 
 
 Coaim. SAIfy^R. I imderetand. 
 
 Mr. OtTSirJE. B«caii£59 $154 is to "ba allocated, 
 I fixed tip t?ith the ?th«r. 
 
 Mr. WBIXIKITOS. Juet to clftar up this qaeation of 
 iTigt ructions, for 3£r. rlawkins' bstiefit, Sr. Ambach calls 
 ai:.' attantior. to ths fact th?it thera is no definite instruc- 
 tion in thia book as to how ths etata-raent of «hol3 niilk 
 cper-atjon ehoald he put togisthsr. It Trae the intsnticn, 
 in thg first plac©, th^t th? fixed chai'ges as shown at the 
 bottom of the original bl^as print ehould includs all fixed 
 charges. That was taken up before th© f3om?al88ion at tha 
 last ^!«®ting, an5 instructions «rer© taad!? definitely in i'^- 
 gard to the sattar. 
 
 CosBa. SAWVSH. I ram«5sb9r it. 
 
 Mr. WSLLlWiTOn, And if Mr. Ha-^kins did not recoil'© 
 a copy it is wnfortxmate, because hs irctdd 9!ieily gst 
 confused in that ca0«. I would ask Mr. Hawkins if the 
 othsr cottutry ©xp^nea it*Ms include d^prseiation? 
 
 Mr. VAWFJm. T think not. 
 
 Mr. W^LII^ITO'*. That is the only on«? 
 
 Mr. ITAWKIHS. T think eo, 
 
 Mr. frSLLIFC-70^. How, the next its-: if, "Oicy 
 Ixpenoe.* That cosies next undar tha heading, "Country 
 
?tr!-^^^ ?^ 
 
 •^rti.i7!^H 
 
 <^ h Ir-sw *:-1 
 
 A"".-*. 
 
 T.- ■ — f .-T—, 
 
 . -i);; 
 
14 
 
 Sxp9nse,* after "Cana and Stopplae.* W© huiv» fcersi^d it 
 *Gity Receiving "Sxpenw.* That in a figora that is much 
 l#8s than the fig'.ire ir. the Whiting BtatsmsB t . In tJ«t 
 Whiting account, th9 Itesi le called "City ^ecsiving Expanse.* 
 Vhi&t Ite^xB have you includad in this it®si of "City llxpsns»« 
 or "City l^calving Expends, •* urjdiar the heading "Ootrntrji- 
 Expen&e"? 
 
 Ml'. HAfKIHS. Meet of that is trucking, '^ir. Welling- 
 tOB, from the railroad ir t>»« city to tt-9 plart in the citj^,--^ 
 Bsoet cf it is. Ycj will notlc* there that I h%vs not in- 
 clndsd any itsm for aec^tmting. That ite^s fcr account ir^ 
 ▼ould T-^pr^B^T.t l&bor, iacEtly, -shiah Ie included in the 
 labor j tsm. 
 
 Kr. W1LLT?!CT0*. Under what labor item? 
 
 Mr, HAWKIFIS. ^Ind&r *<;oiiRtry Sxpynse" — that ie, 
 the e Varies cf the clsrke engaged in SkCccimtiRg in the 
 off lc9 in the city has teen included under lator. That 
 would Ibe practic^ly an accounting sxpenee. 
 
 Mr. W?XXI!'aTOK. That certainly deas not make it 
 cl^ar. 
 
 Mr, VA^Zim, I will grant that, hut we didn't 
 exactly entirely re^-rite tiiese "booke, as you undarei^and. 
 
 Mr. WSLLI^afO!^, I know, hut that ehcula not af- 
 fect tl"^ iterR, ""ity ^-xpenm ." 
 
 Mr. HAtrif^S. Th'ire raay fee otha-r itei^s along 
 thosf> lino«. Moot cf the city expenee ie trueklnx, though. 
 X c%Ti. tell yotj that. 
 
 Wr. WKTJJMTOS. Doee it include any l&hor? 
 

 
15 
 
 Mr. HAWKIWS. Tn& labor on trucks, yes, air. 
 iir. s^LLIHlTOK. Doss it include any labor at tha 
 receiving elation ite«lf? 
 
 Mr, HAWKINS. Mo; that rscslvin.T; etSktlon would bt 
 incltMed tmder city expanses, ¥r. Wellington. 
 
 Mr. tlLLIHaTON. Should it b«? 
 
 Mr. RAfFKISS. Well, now, I gu®BB prob&My you, can 
 •nsrtar that jaet as w«ll as I ean. 
 
 Mr. S?11*LIIICJT0K. fell, us hsuv© put in hsr« tmdsr 
 *Oity Expense" th9 labor, in fact all th^ eost of jotting 
 th» aailk frem. tha cars to ths plant. 
 
 Mr, HAITKIKS. Woyl<3 that includa dspreciation or 
 th9 city platfcria, too? I»r.»t that part of the city ex- 
 
 pans*? 
 
 Mr. WtLLI?)GTO^ . Sursly. ' ' ^^ y^ 
 
 Mr. ^AWKIFS. irhy iKolud« on®, a.r;d not th® ether? 
 
 Mr, WBlXISaTOK. That coai*8 tinder "Fixed Charge t." 
 
 Mr. TiAFXISE, That r@o«ivlng platform, ae we have 
 It, is a city 9XpenB®» It includes labor, lijjhtilig, 
 
 powar, suppliiE, mi eosllfitneouB Itswe. " ■ 
 
 Ir. fl^LLIIIJTOR. Yoiar it®m for labor under the 
 he^^ing "City Sxpen»«* inclxidiss all the labor that we 
 would show -uiKjer the he--i<2irg -of *Clty Receiving Sxpenre* 
 and ssl«o imd^r tha heading 'Labor,* That is, it includes 
 all th? labor in Soston cr in your city recalving et^ticr? 
 
 ,Mr. RATOIFS. Fay that again? 
 
 Mr. WILLII^STCR. Doe© year labor lindsr th© item 
 •fJity !?xpen8«" inolud® all yev-r l&bor at ths rfec»iving 
 •tat ion? 
 
ir-mfi;- 
 
 ■ ■-; <•■■ - 
 
16 
 
 }^, HAW?:TNS. Yas, sir. and«r "City ^xpsr.se" tha 
 itoffi of $l,71»t?.46 would tnolude the proportion of that 
 labor at th« x^adlvinc: platfcra, 
 
 Mr. WSLLII* j70r*. So tfi&t there is practic&lly 
 nothiTiiT; in thi© Item of cornet ry ©xpena^ for city raceiv- 
 ing «xe«pt th^J trucks ana labor on tha trucke? 
 
 Mr, HAWKINS. Yse, thiit is about what It is. 
 
 Mr. ^ILLTHOTOH. !>9pt^ciation on thoss trucks? 
 
 Hr, HAWKINS. Yes, sir, 
 
 Sr. ?rFLLIN 'JTO'^, That go«B do-vrn Tjelow. 
 
 Mr, HAWKIHS. D^prsoiation is all do-sn belcw, thar«. 
 
 Mr. SIAHS. What itsjns rmike up your figure of 
 $6,§S3.09, uud^r "Oitv Racsiving Sxpersa," Mr. Wellinfton? 
 
 Mr, vmJLlW'lfOn, That ie thg trucking, such as Ur, 
 Hawkins lnolud*<i. That also inoltjdss th9 labor cf getting 
 the cans "^ff the cars and on to the plant. 
 
 Mr. S1AHS. You n^ar. , from ths trucks into the plant? 
 
 Mr. O'JSIOK. From ths trucks into th« plant or from 
 ths care into the plant, ferin,fi:ing tha erapcy can© back, 
 tying th?»ffl up, s^Dding tham -iloiig, whiitever thsy <3o. 
 That is ths way they t«ll ue to do it, bacaue^t tne next 
 thing fltagrte with proosesing. 
 
 Mr. W2XLIH::5TCN. For tha itsai cf shrinkage you eho« 
 a vsry small ^i.'Bount und«r ths hsiiding of "Ocuntry ^sqpane©" 
 and a large OBount imder tha heading of "(Jity Sxp«n8*8.* 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. Yea, air. As I rersember «y inter- 
 view with your Mr. Perkine, wa knew what our shrinkage 
 account wae, and you didnH — on the baeie of ona third 
 and two thirda, eorae thing like that. «9 knaw whit our 
 
■k? ,??■ 
 
 J % 
 
 ^^^.i.; ■■-■• .•:• riutr^o «<='* 
 
 
 
17 
 
 exACt ehrinkag© wajB, and it is included there. 
 
 Mr. r^XtlHOTO^. I B99, Your inward frtight it©m 
 eee^B rather e^sall in proportion to th» total purchafi^B. 
 
 Mr. HAffKIKS. That inward freight ite?a inoludss 
 the frei^it on the milk which vt^ imve charged up here in 
 this report, 3,343,000 qtiaifts, what»v«r it is. That is 
 not the toea.1 freight on ©tar milk, chat waa paid out, of 
 couree . 
 
 Mr. WBLLIBxJTOK, Bo^s th.%t inclisda any fr®i3;ht on 
 ourpl\i8? 
 
 Mr. nAWKins. It includSB the freight on *ai th® 
 alii. ?ba.t figwre is d<*riv»s<i by taking th® freight on ^1 
 tho mill; 3hippsd from tlrt© country, and taking such propor- 
 tion of th9 total freight as th« quarts of milk Includeti 
 in this statement b«ar to th« total qustrts of Tdlk rs-- 
 a&i^&d in Boston. 
 
 Mr. W5LI,IKa?0K. I s«s. 7hr*t i© all right. 
 
 Ooisiin. SAfT^B. Hov la yours, Mr. Wellington, — 
 on the sar!39 haeis? 
 
 Mr. WSLLI??OTOf?. Y©B, t'm sam« fcasie. 
 
 Mr. BAWKIIIS. 1 might ge»iy, again, that a very 
 fins analysis of that freight ie kept by th© Hoods, ?jid 
 th&t th»y knew exa^ctly to a panny juBt how much it is, and 
 I b«liev8 Mr. Pdrkins had a littl® diffictaty in eegrs- 
 gatlng it in tha othar e&ss. Vis apportioned a certain 
 amo-ant for cream, 
 
 Mr. pgRKIUE. Tee. 
 
 Mr. HAtKISS. In othsr srorde, it wae not qiaite bo 
 closes ae this, 9Bp«oially with th« analysis iaad« by the 
 
t^^."^ 
 
 
 •; . r5 fc.#'«R ^1 , ^v; '>'-sQ>' ' •■■'•-' 
 
13 
 
 HoodB in conndotiotJ «ith the freight yards. 
 
 Mr. ^RKIISS. Well, th-? Whiting Company's wae all 
 in one account, but there was no difficulty izi eeparating 
 it. 
 
 Mr. WBLLISOTOS. You ha^/© aj: itara hers of saiscal- 
 laneouB, under the head "Oity ?!xp«neeo*? 
 
 Sir. HAWKIJfS, Yea. ^ould you like to have these? 
 
 l£r. ?r3LLIHlT0]?. T«8. 
 
 Mr, HAfXIKS. That fniecallatndous, of coiirsa, in 
 a proportion of th« total miaoellans'^us. The tosal mis- 
 callaneouB le eome thing liK^--- 
 
 Oomm. SASnUR. Wall, tbars *ir® only two roigGgllaneoue 
 it©tns, 
 
 Wr. HAWKIFS. The total aiscallaceous woyld "be 
 80K« thins liit» |230O. Thie rspreeents a proportion cf 
 
 that total itiiBC9ll&n9ou6. I cojr give you tn« total mis- 
 csllanaeus. 
 
 Mr, WBLLIf'TOK. Whera doss the "fc-alanc© go, under 
 city ^xpsnssB? 
 
 Mr. HA¥KIKS. It would bs chargeable to the i^ilk 
 not inclxidsd in this stataiasnt. 
 
 Mr. WSI.LIB1T0S, What is ths lEilk that -jakee euch a 
 larg® proportion of the total? You ar» putting in here 
 only slightly mora than half of the total. 
 
 Mr. HAtKIIIS. Putting in about 14/23ds. 
 
 Mr. »1JM,IB3T08. Yes. 
 
 Mr. HASEIM. Thai, ie pretty nearly two thirde, 
 ian't it? I can give you the total quarts, if you vould 
 like them. The?*® is butt^nailk, skisa allk, — -- 
 

 '.l''."i'T A * 
 
 , -K:- ■■I.:} i ..(:,.-_ jfi^ 
 
 ni. :X'.::i:4 
 
 
 u i 
 
 .a:i: :V'3i '^-'^ 
 
 ^ i> 
 
 iK*,-^^ 
 
19 
 
 Mr. OUSIvK. r\Q wsoitB to too* *her9 ths oth^r ailk 
 has ^on«? 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. Btitterailk, ekia milk, csrtlf isd 
 milk, gr&fie A milk, and so forth. 1 8 th&wt clear? 
 
 ¥r. WlLLIff3T0!?. Yae, that is cl&ar. 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS, I cars give you the total. 
 
 Mr, OUSIOK. Out Bids of fluid aiilk — th%t is what 
 you !S9afH. 
 
 Mr. HAITKISB. Y9s, -- wotild include also that 
 87,CXH3 quart© of pints sold wholesale, which you say thar© 
 ie <|uit9 a loss en. 
 
 Mr. OUSIOK. No, it wouldn't. 
 
 .Mr. HAfKIKS. Y»e, it would. 
 
 Mr. ClfSIOK. You hav9n»t ©nough for that. Lat ae 
 ask yea a question. You taliL about pints. How did 
 
 you gat th« averapa selling price of 8,6 c«nts? 
 
 Mr. HA^KIRS. Trow rr. Sil'bert, cvsr tha 'phon#. 
 
 Mr. OUSIOE. Th%t 1b the klnfl of accounting you 
 }ie»r« doii«? 
 
 Mr. BAfKIWg. f%B told to tak« tM pries fixed 
 "by th® -'!!osisi«aioR. 
 
 mr. 0TJ8ICK. And is that what you took? 
 
 Mr, TiAWK;iHS. I was told to take the prions fisted 
 fey tha Coiasissicn. 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. So on9 si so hae done that. 
 
 Mr. BAfKIHS. That is what I undarstcod tha gentle 
 wan from Sr. Wellington' e cffiee to So, 
 
 Hr, COSIOK, This gantlaman from Mr. Wellington's 
 office didn't do it, and so I don't know whyhe should tell 
 
*'^.- 
 
 ■!■ I 
 
 .3'~ 
 
 i,. •■ "jO^-?';.i; lie - v.; 
 
 il >:.rtTi fe-tc 
 
 ■ a^c-.> 
 
 '^..v^* T'^j bi-^-j 
 
 ,^«,:i:3- :*:?'>;■; <; 
 
 .li'i ■'^j- 
 
90 
 
 you to do it. 
 
 Mr, HAWKII'S. I don't, sithsr. 
 
 Mr. OOSIOE, ^uite a proportior. of pints are eold 
 with quarts, at tha same rats ae ths quart pric«, vshich 
 »culd TC9 7-1/3 cents where your quart price is 16 csnte. 
 That price ie fixe<S "by ths CemjiiiBeion. Pints not deliv- 
 «r»d with QU4aur*t8 %rs sold at S,5 cents. The proportion 
 of pints eolcl for 7,5 o^fnte inet#eud of 8.5 c«nts is con- 
 eidsrable la all the rest of the 'busin^es, and I aseuaa 
 that it ia so with th* Hood Company. 
 
 }ir» HAWKIfS, Ani you say you know just th© incora© 
 that coraes froa pints, from your books? 
 
 Mr, OOSICK. Y®R, sir. 
 
 Mr. HAWKIBS. I know you don't, because I osm 
 tall you that— — 
 
 Mr, PISKISS. W9 know what pints ara gold at quart 
 pri09 tmu wh«fct ^t plrife price. 
 
 Mr. liAWKIHS. Well, w© ware told to g©t the Com- 
 miesion'e price, mn& called up Dr. Ollljert. Br. Gilbert 
 
 will verify that. I think, that I cailsd him up in 
 
 regard to it. 
 I Mr. CI'JSICK. Well, there are the two prices on 
 
 pints. There Is th» price on pints delivered with quarts 
 
 1 
 at the auart price, 7,5 cents, i*r)d the price on pints de- 
 
 livera'5 ^3 pints, S.S cents, and if your proportion of 
 
 the two kinds of business was the s^ttie as fch-i*t of the Hood 
 
 Ooap^iny, it would m^e a loss of substantially & thousand 
 
 dollars on your 324,000 pints. 
 
^^11. . 
 
 ^t.-cj rr »> <N ?■- • ;! 
 
 It:-;? it: ,--jC 
 
 « > ', ■ - - . ;• . 
 
 
 i ' i e V [ f J: w 
 
 .jtiO J?; .'-I 
 
 •y^i. ';-'i.'?f';". .1 
 
 ■y,iJ .» :! ,i.'.'^l 
 
 
 .O^.f; .fi 
 
 : c-"".''i 
 
21 
 
 Dr. OILBSRT. I would &ay that the Co^rss lesion 
 h%di not passed on that officially in S^pttm^iar, "but it was 
 th» price of the doal*re at that time, 
 
 Mr. CITSICJK. It ir-s,® the pried trr^an wa took it isp 
 at th^ laet hsaring. 
 
 Ooiari. SAW^-ISK. W®11, i^e ha,v9 h»ard yotir conteTJtion 
 <m that. CJc ai^.aad. 
 
 Mr. nUSIOK. T aw teaming pints, Mr. H-awkins. 
 inhay raade -us dc it. I 
 
 ¥r. WKLLIWaTOF. Mr, HawklBB, tne item irndsr the | 
 
 Y 
 
 ■J 
 
 h«ad of d«?livery oxpeTtee, for 'bottles ajid cases, what 
 dr^ae that inclitde? 
 
 Mi*. HA?/KTSS. That ineludsra tha Jars. Tb® charge 
 for oas^e is in ths depreciation. 
 
 Kr, OIBIOK, Yov wa>r« asted what Jteffla yo« IncltJdad 
 fcr "bottlas and cas^e 'jBdsp the head cf dsl ivory expersse. 
 
 Mr. HAfKIWS. And T told you. 
 
 Mr. iTJSICK. no. You told ug ??hat wa» not in 
 
 Mr, ■'lAfXIII^. Wall, we took ths chars?* s for "bot- 
 tles; total cbargas for bottlse, f^720.25. 
 
 Mr. OtJSICJK. Yon 5»an, y©u took tfi« br-'ttle-s pur- 
 
 Mr. BAWKOS. lo, the iDOttles put int« uee during 
 the Btontto. .,■■-■-'•;■■. 
 
 Mr. IfSIXIHSTOf. Bottlae piafc ijsto esrvics? 
 
 Mr, HA¥KI5S. That misht ba tha way & lawyer would 
 do it, "biit not a«i acco'intajrit, 
 
 Mr. OUSICH. What about th* casts? 
 
?^r.ssf :'■'•■ 
 
 ■>X- 
 
 I? i54.' ^^ -' * •' 
 
 hi 
 
 
 'JYi'-Kv ,0 
 
 • r'j ■^■;i';- 
 
 fy -■"'■< c *-rr"? ^ i;<| y.j^'j-' •:■ -i -*d<^ , • 
 
2B 
 
 Mr. HATOINS. The cas«s ara includsd in depre- 
 cia,tion, 
 
 Mr. WSLLIHOTOf, You hava no oh^-ge for cases? 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. Except th^t s^*own in depracisition. 
 
 Ooasa. SAWYSIR. Let me ask you a quQetion, Sr. 
 Wtlllngton. Have y©u fellowt-^, the "book on fch&t and put io 
 bottles that have "besr. put into use? 
 
 Mr. "iASTKISS, Bottle B put into aarvice. 
 
 COffim. SAWYSR. Your charge th!a,t month is $6,543, 
 and tfe*?lrs is $3,037. S4, You put ntor% into use apparently 
 that month than they did -- that Is, if both a^caunte ar« 
 ri!?ht, 
 
 Mr, O^JSIOK. Y-3S, th*t is It. One of thsm must 
 tee iprong, probaMy. 
 
 Mr. WXII.TS3?0"^, I would like to ask a qus^.ticn 
 on tha acccunting charga und-ar tfcs h^adino;, *D9livsry 'Sx- 
 pena« . * 
 
 Mr. HAWKIKS. that do you want to know about that, 
 Mr. Wsllington? 
 
 Mr. flI.LIB^*OK. DO'9s that include all your account- 
 ing for delivery? 
 
 Mr. BAWKIKS. All the acooiaiting for delivs»ry? 
 
 Mr. WKLLISaTOS. Yss. 
 
 Mr. HAWKIKS. ^e« , *h9n you say, "all your accounting 
 for delivery,* you mean tha tia« th® driver takes tc raak« 
 up hiu aceounte, too? 
 
 Mr. WF.LLIKa'rOS. No. 
 
 Comra. SAWYSH. It ie parf >ctly plain, hers. 
 
 Mr, HAWKINS. W«ll, Mr. Vallington asks the 
 
"- .. -■<-!^ V. > 
 
 
33 
 
 question, and I want to know juet what ha i7S.^n8. 
 
 neam. SAITYER. This says, und»r 307, accounting: 
 •To fchiB 8M3cour.t shall l>a charg«d tha pay of 
 
 clerks *nd bookkeepers engaged directly on routes 
 
 accounting,* 
 Dl<3 you do any^tning more or less? 
 
 Mr. KAtKINg. yee, sir, it Is hare. 
 
 CoHifli. SAWYER. r>ia vow do anything different, Mr. 
 t«llin^tcn? 
 
 Mr. frSlLIR"S?OW. Ko, eir. Then ths next item 
 
 under ■Delivery ^penee* is the miscellaneous ifcea. 
 
 Mr, HAWKIHS. Would you like to knov all about those? 
 
 Mr, mU.im'TOn, Yes. 
 
 Mr, HAfKISS. That nJscellaneoua esqsense includes s a 
 portion of your ice on the trucks, on the route wagons, 
 and eo forth. You know, the route y^^one h&ve to have ice 
 on their wagons to keep the milk cool. I don't know 
 whether you have included that or recognized it. 
 
 Mr. WSLLIROTO^. What else is in theref 
 
 Mr. RAfKISfS. There is a trucking charge fro^n the 
 plant to thx9 delivery depot. 
 
 Mr. fSLI,IS3T0H, Shouldn't that be up tmder the 
 country expense? 
 
 Mr. HAfKIRS. Wo, that is a delivery charge. 
 
 Mr, WILLIRC-TO?!. Aft?r it is prooeesed? 
 
 Mr. HAWFIHS. After it ie proceeeed, yes. 
 
 Mr. tSLLIHOTOR. I see. Why shouldn't tnat be under 
 •?eekia» and Trucks*? 
 
 Mr, HAfKIIfS. Veil, teaaa and trucke ar-a reprsaented 
 by the actual delivery — that is, aft^r it leaves the 
 
».Jl- 
 
 , .ft-i!*!.*- Hi 
 
 . :hy q- 
 
84 
 
 delivery dtpot. 
 
 Mr. r«'I*LIS3?0K, I sae. What alee is In there? 
 
 Mr. HAfKIES, 1^«n, thsra ie th® matter of 
 general sxpeBse, I cssn get you the g-aneraO. expsrsfes ther^, 
 $900. Of cciira®, this total hsre of ovar |4,000 repre sect e 
 « proportion of fch* total miscellaneous. The total mis- 
 oellaneoiaji is soMsthir^ like 16,000 odd, whatever it is. 
 I oar* give you that. I ^cyld lik« to e^y tixat ws hav« th« 
 detail -all her«. That g«r=®ral «xp9ji»0 -of f9SJ4 ie repre- 
 »dnt??td Ijy the total. chargae to each of ths eight 
 
 Isranchss or t»n brajicnsus, Ws csr. raffr tc? each of th9 
 Btx9Qtu hBr^ to ehm you what ti5»v rS'prsjs^nt, if yo>a wa«t. 
 
 Mr. irSIX.ISltON. So. 
 
 Mr, liAWKIlS. We hs^va th« i»hole thSng. I dars e«^- , 
 I fe-*! sore, fchssy <j«in pr<Jdtuc« vouch® r» for &11 of fchtra. 
 
 Mr. '#lLLIM-:J?Ofe. I haven't a, doubt of it. Than 
 the naxt its®, Loss from Bstd Bsbte. 
 
 Hr. HAifKIKS, I ^oulu lii:9 to saj ®oaa thing about 
 that. That aoean't r^preeent tn& Iosb froa bad <30bt8 
 that th*y sho«- <m fch«ir books. Thar® Beaaj^a to be, in 
 ny ^Btiraafcion, an unuetaal charge for bad <2*bte during 
 that aoTttii. I think it reprssentad ecme thing like $8,000 
 or $9,000, and I thought it wa,® cjt cf all propor-tion, and 
 I took A very jaucn iwavier charge th^ji should ordinarily 
 accrtaS' on route s^l©?,. I took on« per cant, on ealee, total 
 Bi%l«s. That ordini*rily ishould be .sK-r* thfAn would be 
 charged in. According to tha ^xperianc© I have had, it 
 shouldn't b® over a half a par cent. 
 
ify 
 
 ij^io^ 
 
 i - ■' ■ 
 
 V .:d 
 
 *.-;o .s^-'!>3 T 
 
S5 
 
 Ofmn, SAW^B. Jr. othar irortSs, inetesul of tatking 
 what thair liet of bad dabts actually ehowe, you to«k 
 B-raae thing yo-a thotij^ht wa& propsr? 
 
 Mr. R.WKIHS. The less frora "bad d'^bts act-aally 
 charged In SeptSTsbssr was net th© actual loes in Saptsmljar, 
 7h®y had charged in th«ir total account eossethinf like 
 $8,000 or $9,000 for t^ad debts. That didcU repr&ssnt 
 loEses In S©pteF3'b%r, "b-ut locsss that hsw? accrued in prior 
 SBORthe, and I want ov"»p th® fcoolt, sj^d the avsrafre Iobbqs 
 8ho*sd abcx:!t •O'ns per c<^nt. So T took cr^s jj^tr c'S'nt. and 
 charged that. ?h#r9 wciildn't l3« any ftqiiity in charging 
 leeeee for a cf months int«i <ms month*© cost. 
 
 ft 
 
 Ooaffl. SAffV^H. For how long a perln*?. do yoti take 
 that eharga for "bad d©bt»? 
 
 Ur, HAWKt??S. I went ov^r the Tjooks f'^r sight 
 tenths. T want ovs-r thsti casually, didi*t figur® it out, 
 over sey«n or sight months, 
 
 Oemia. SAtTSR. ^sd apportioned one seventh or 
 ©ighth of it? ■"'•■• 
 
 Mr. ^'AWKIMS, Yes, sir. -' > ' 
 
r.'^n^^yrf^ 
 
 ;'■.■•■■ i ■^•^'■^q::'- 
 
L I I 
 
 Ooasffilss loner 3AWy^:!??. Eo?* did you treat it, Mr. Wslllngt::n? 
 
 Mr. WBLLISOTON. We took wbat a'ae actually ofcargsd off that 
 sonth. . 
 
 CojEJBi SB loner SAWYER. How did It coapare ./1th tks avarage 
 aatouct ohargad? 
 
 Mr. WSLLTSGTOS. It le rather lo«r. 
 
 Mr. HAWKTSS. What pepcentag© of the sal© Is that? 
 
 Mr. WSLLTHGTON. Ealf cf one percent, a littls l^se. 
 
 Mr. KA^TNS. ^ell, ss oha?ged ens psroent.. 
 
 Sir, WgLLTS(3T0li. In dclng it in that ^-ay ycu msds the eaase 
 probabla ountry oharge for feasily, shore snd hotel? 
 
 Mr. EAmiNS. Yes, sir.. 
 
 Mr. WgLLIKGTOS. Wa shcured It as It ooctjrred, and that is 
 tfcs ^sy ?^e imdersto d the CcEaiseion i.aDted it.. 
 Mr. OUSiaX. That ie what it ssys.. 
 
 OaaaElssionar S/WYSE. Yes, -"lessee fvm bad debts ehsll bs 
 charged to the several olasses of trade ae thsy ar§ Inourrsd,? 
 Q^h ahead,. 
 
 Mr. KAWKTHS. T nevwr eaw any record of their Cfispany that 
 shc'^sd that. X hop© you know just .?hat y u less en ©aoh class 
 of trada,. That le a very fine piece of snalytlc^l arork. . I fencar 
 t h e H ods d on ' t kn c ^ . 
 
 Mr. P'-HSISS. Kew lE^iofe thsy Icse on indlvidTial cuetcjrere? 
 
 Mr. EAMT^S? !Jc, nor hc-sr aeuoh le lost on Boylstoc St. ii^r 
 Washington St.. 
 
 Ceaffilsslcnsr SAWYER. That Is aelds f r on? the q-J9sti->n.. 
 
 Mr. 'A1?LLT^T0N. On the per quart of j er r-lnt, on tha rsirt 
 8h3'9*, Mr. i^v^cioK |f>»8 taken V3p the point In regard to tha 8.5 
 o^nts per i>lnt «nd 7,5 oenta per jint,. 
 
i 
 
 LX^i 
 
 ra 
 
 ^ :i - :■• . 
 
'W ^^^ 
 
 Mr. KA19ItTJ.S. Ye«. 
 
 Mr. WELLINGTON. Pcaslbl^ you or Mr. Mlllstt can tell U8 
 what the faip average would be on the 3.5 oente at *hloh plrtc 
 alone are s-ld or the 7.5 cente at uhiob tlnte are sold v/lth 
 quapte, . 
 
 Mp. F.AWXTN3. I cennot tell yu that. 
 
 Mr. MILLET. And T oann t tell yru that. T don't lcno«r the 
 ppopontlon of the pln^e Bcld .vlth quarte io. We have no peocpd 
 of that.. 
 
 Oiia^xtlealonep S/WYEF. Before »9 get do«i to that, I *ant to 
 aalc you questlcne, both of y.^u. Mr. Wellington, taking your 
 fixed ohargsa, Int y-sst on Inreetirent, 17,192.91, that la Intep- 
 eat at *hat raiet 
 
 Mp. WRLLTNGTON.. eix p&poent.. 
 
 CJ^>a!rl9ff^'-»op S^:mm,. On *'hat?' 
 
 Mr. WgLLTMTOH. On the lnveotaj»nt devcted tc whole asl Ik. 
 
 Cca-rrleeion^ SAWgR. And does it Include inv.et^ent In 
 r ou tea? 
 
 Mr. WELLISGTOH. Surely. 
 
 acfflaleelcner SAV[m.. The whcls inv-ct^snt? 
 
 Mr. .ELLTNGTOH. The pPopoPtlonel ln»e«t^ent dev te. to 
 
 b.o,u., ,.u ,., not .._,ppo.M to »„., ,,,„ ,,,, „,,, ,„„et,,„, 
 1... K... M... E,,kir,., ^cur l„t=r«t ~n ln„«.«,t .„. .1.0 on 
 the eitouot « th9 r.te of .li f,ra.„tt' 
 Kr. KAUKTBS. lea, .ip, 
 
 Oo3,u.,.ner SA'^^,. o„ ti,. ,«„«t ,„„.,., ,„ .,,„ ^,^^, 
 «.. K,-«I.S. T... e.P. .„,,t ,Me. t .oul* Uk. to ,.„ 
 

 
 -r^r vit'fJ' 'i' 
 
 
-v 
 
 ^ 
 
 179 
 
 this in oowaactlon jrltb that. At a very late hour on Saturday, 
 I tblnk it wnB, OP P.pld?iy, a gsntlsinn troa Sir. Wellingtcn's 
 offloe '2all'?4 »* up snd sail the Interest co investir^Tsts In ths 
 ooYintry shruld b© apjopticned flret betiy«en aellk scd oreasa, "Jnd 
 then the total ttv allk sho'uld be obarffsd to ths sales teec® on 
 ths baels that ths ooxjrntry wa8«--*±st \f/&e that, Mr. Welllcgtc^n? 
 Tfeat is v.'feat T did, snyho*-. Ls^t thase tell it , Tbey knos' g«crg 
 about It then I dc,. 
 
 Mr. WtLUKGTOK. That tfcs oountry iDvsstasert ffas aade for 
 ths purpose ot piirsfeasing ntllk and cire^c end that tBs interest 
 on tbat InvestBEsnt ■was a fair charge against th^ a?llk and 3rs^B 
 •lellvefed, and that tfce dipeot sountpy tjxpenees *SP9 divided a© 
 bs-t^s^B ths ffillk tli&t oaa3-e to Soston and the milk, tteat i?as need 
 otfcftr'wlee, but thst tfce fls^d charges in the ooiaitry bsloagsd' to 
 tfc© IE I Ik tfcat onste tc Bv^ston. . Ts th^t claar? 
 
 Mr. EAWRTNS. Wfeethsr sold a/s v?hols ^llk or net? 
 
 Mr, WfLLTNSTOS , Because th^? sripplue dees not rsc^jpe tfee 
 dealers ftp the Interest on tfcelr aountr-y Investajent, as t^© al- 
 loaranoes jB.isde ?*nd deducted free ths fer'aseT oo^rers a ceptaln spssr*. 
 Jfio dsduotlcn, dc©s not ocver fixsd cli;5rgi9e, Intereet, Ineurar-C® 
 and ds|>peclatlon dsdwotlons, Tiispsfors, these fl5ee^. oteargee auet 
 in total s-"^ iRto the cost c-f jsilk sold.. Is that clsap? 
 
 OfcJEffiissicnep S^WYKP., l?®ll, ^-e havs it en the raeopd. 
 
 MP. EAfKINS. T did it the saa;© s-ay, Mp. SsA-yer'. 
 
 Mpsieslcnep SAWYER. New, go ahsad. ¥/a have that on the 
 pecord, and X hops ;/s can in^,k« it out. Now, you oan /?c on ts 
 ynup pints, 
 
 MP. WSLLIKOTON. Spaaking eboiit family pints, if it Aero 
 possible it wculd bs interesting 
 
] 
 
 
 i;- ^ 
 
 ^ti> '. 
 
 er ...^I': 
 
 .'J> ,-":' 
 
x^ 
 
 poaalbls It *'ould ha Intepaating tr; knc* nhat the real result cf 
 th9 milk s;-lfl in "jlrts la-tbat le, <istsr-i2ln« tfcs real averafje 
 aellitjg pT'ises. -^e the flgtjree fap ths V7hltlEfi,' Otieppxii'ss ?j^d the 
 Alden Odmp&nj bcth afccw i Icee on aellk sold in pint bcttlea f'bf 
 faiEllles.- 
 
 0i.'EnJla8!cner S/Jwygp.. Bvt not .'^fcolseal©? 
 
 Mp. WSLLTNGTCN. Set wholesale, 
 
 Mp. KawSilns, What v/as the lose?' 
 
 Kr. '^LLIKGfCN , It W2S .795, slfflost eight tenths of a sent. 
 
 Mr. K^mTN'S. That js, eight si lis? 
 
 Mp. WKLLTSGTOH. Pop pint, yoB.. 
 
 Mr. EAWKTliS. A icse? 
 
 Mff , .'tVSLLI!3GT0K, Yee. Tn dividing your jprcoessing acst be- 
 tween fajsily, store imd cans, y-u have a sl'ghtly hlghsr scet 
 per i^&rt for asc,- 
 
 Mr. K.smTBS. Yes, esn. 
 
 Mp. WSLLTKtlTOK. And ours t.s qcnsl^erably less.. 
 
 Mp, EAWgTiiS. Wel^ t triad to get all ths lafopasttlon poe- 
 sbkle. I ;?ould like to sa^- in that oonn^otlcn that it eays h-ars, 
 whepe it is ispoaibls or iajpsaotioil tc ssgpsgat© sharges "thsy 
 sh-jyl^ bs apportlonsd and the baoie of apportlotjs«nt ladioatsd,'* 
 T think I h"4 thr©* or fcup v.*3P,v interesting eessions vlth Mr. 
 Pspkm© on that point, and I tp*3l to apporticn that a« nearly 
 aepposeibls on the Inforisation X got from hla. Tf yoa arotild like 
 tc knoa? Just how I did that, I vrc-uld be Ttry glad to tell ycu 
 Just v/fcat is in there. I f/lll say thie, that eoms of these 
 charges ssps a pvcfl Ironed on si ppaetioal basis. Where a can tcok 
 the Gmm& proportion aeaa O'jes, of !3:.upe'5 the can nst -ipally took 
 a proportionately higher? oh?i-*ge, Th.st Is, of ccupse, you have 
 
'm ^i\< 
 
 .,-.^ _.. 
 
 
30 
 
 «l.ght, HTii one-half T'**?t9 In the oan and t?iSlv« in thJ 3»jb3.. 
 That is a flgtips that Intsrssts ana. Of c'-urss, I krtoj? it is jsb- 
 solutel.7 -^rong, but tfcat le the bsais on i?l"l3jh T b--,5 to SfO It. 
 
 Mr. Wl?tl,INGTO?J. How, it J? going to ba i-oss^bld for* j-.;u to 
 fflv-s vje n. dstnll oost for dellTSPy sxpans^^e, crxospt jyst tts one 
 total? 
 
 Mr. E.*WETSS. T s>«ld llks to knc-if bo^- ^-u d5.d t.nat, If I 
 can &ttk. yot3 .t question en that. 
 Mr. aUSTCK. Sure. 
 
 Mr. KA\^TSS. That is a veri- l.ntsresting point '.vttb ros.. 
 
 Mr. '^LLTHCTON. Taking the per rlnt snd p^r q^jart s>!?et, 
 imdsr the he-^sJIci? "total d si T vary eTpenses," thf it ess e?<5 shcvm 
 In :ml^' tis^o groups, the direct obarges and t.fce flxs4 obsrcss. 
 
 C'^isst* '■^1'^!?»'r BAWYVUrf t Yoe,. 
 
 Mp. ^^LLTSuTOS . You show j'oiir dollars and csnte, dslivsry 
 sxpsKses, find you fcucd th^t it ras not p<>6slble tn divide that 
 dcll^rc sRd cent©? 
 
 Mr, EAWTSS. Ret en tfes basis of ©y api orticnssnt, and X 
 will tell y^-13 he?; I undsretDcd Mr. Parkins ?m8 ccing to appor- 
 tion It, and than bow fee ild it and boi? '«?? did It. 
 
 Mr. ?;fLLTHOTOH. Go abead. 
 
 Mr. EAmiSS. W© found the total units c.f delivery on each 
 of tbe flvs different ^leeaee-pure family, arixed family, pur© 
 oan, pure bottle and aissd bottle, nnd aftsr ss found cut tbs 
 total ^stjits wbloh wars lellver'fd, bctb a? Ik ?nd opeaa. 
 
•", i? 
 
 r.. "i . 
 
 i if ■^:i .\'f'y. 
 
 H-. *-S ■ '-. -1 ■ 
 
 '"-f; 
 
182 
 
 31 
 
 wholeealur and retail, ve first took th? charge for t'«^aae 
 and trrtcKs and apportlcnad that charge to each of ths dif- 
 ferent slaaaes of roates, on th9 basis of horse days 
 in the petit*. ThL^t waa on^ of the "basos cf lh9 distribu- 
 tion in t^ams and trucks. Th^r, «® too'k she latbor ch^^u-ge 
 and app«?Ftion*td that on the mim'b^r af routes in ■saoh class 
 of iellvsry, and the r<98t of it *a apportioned on a unit 
 basis, "shSch ie the n'.raib9r of unitsa of delivary. 
 
 Mr. r?!LLIl«0?CK. Tha pcint basis? 
 
 Mr. HAf3fK.IffS. Yes, the point basis. f^o«, after 
 wa got that we found that there ^%& a certain ctiarge for 
 teams and trucks to pur^ fa?n:lly, of l-a.bi;>r fee pure fansily, 
 of miBC«ll<^eci5B to pure family, for tha total unite of 
 dSelivery on each of thcee claeess of rcutss. fhsn wo gofe 
 th!9 tmit cost of delivery psr tmit of deXivery, ■«© took 
 the ntanbsr of -jnlts of delivery in fa^nily qii&rts, for in- 
 stance, and ws took th* weighEsd average coat of thos« units 
 on the two differant classes of routes which d^livarsd 
 them. In othsr worete, of th© 1,463,056 quarts delivered 
 there was 747,000 and ssome odd delivered on mlxsd faunily 
 and 706,000 land some odd delivered on pure fanily, aiid «& 
 took th$ weighted average unit cost on those two different 
 cl&ssas of ro-ates, — unit of p-ars milk .034257, roixed 
 f^isiily unit cost por pint of delivery, .0S492, ^xi6, th« 
 W9ight»d average was .034619. How, how you arai going to 
 take the charga for toams, trucks and bottles h«re, uaing 
 that weighted «,v^raf?9, is a little problenj in ra-Uheatitlcs 
 tlxifct I didn't go into. Probably ycu havia figured it out. 
 

 ■■■•'■'^ y «■ 
 
 -■- i ' -S--''^ 
 
XOO.J 
 
 ^ 
 
 Mr. P'-TRKIKS. W® went aroand tim tv9& thB o6hsr 
 way, th^t is all. 
 
 Mr, HAWKTKS. Ife would £sa;s a tr^B:!endo^ls sg^ioutit 
 of tr-ivsling to get the labor char??© aft'sr ^ettiiij^ tha 
 weighted average, and it wotJld raean forty-fehres difftr^nt 
 Classes cf prodisots delivered ^id I don't know how msa-.y 
 thousar.d oalculatione made to get it sxactly a» you 's an tad 
 it on th® "basie of cistri'bution that Mr. Perkdlne sugijsetad. 
 
 Mr, WSLLIHl?0?n You didn't djvid® your t©a.'??s and 
 laTDor separately, but add*fi t-'aam.B, labor, 'bottles &vA 
 «v-^ry thing tog*(th5r, and divided th© total ocet on weighted 
 average, rather than taKing each iteia? 
 
 Mr. HAWKIWS. I took tho total coat for each claBS 
 cf routs and got ths w-slghted avera.>:9, -- total tmit cost 
 per 'jnit of d«liv^ry on eaujh olass of rents. 
 
 Mr. fi:iJ.INlTO?*\ Why coultln't you have added all 
 your tssame. and trucks and all f«nilv- trade to^ethar? 
 
 Mr. 'HAfKIMS, f« didn't hav® tli-s ocet cf nil faiE-ily 
 trad®, fe atpporti<>ned th* coet of tssyss .*.tid ?;r''j.ckB to 
 «ach class of rout*^, firat. Tou ^muTif caks ths proportion 
 of t^ams and trucks which wotild appl;/ to the family trucks, 
 and apply that to ©ach class of product delivered? If 
 that is what you jaean, to coma at that you understand th&t 
 yoti would hav® to take-«- 
 
 Mr, FIESI'^S. Sot !2tach distinct olaes of product, 
 "tint grouping th^m "b^for^ you begin tteit oparation. Th^t ie 
 %h9 idsfist, 
 
 CoOTi. BArnS. How rt^ny of tha^sa dlffsr^neae 
 ha.V9 you got to thresh out? 
 
t.-^\ 
 
 n :i 
 
 ■i^:.-'\" ri .m ■•■■'•'j^<. ■>- 
 
 isOO o. 
 
 • ■ :?•■ 
 
 ' ■-«': -=-■.'; > ! ^i 
 
 ■^5 
 
 0,; '^ 'C 
 
 
 .; .: 3 .^i■;;•>^■ 
 
33 
 
 Mr. WSLLII91T0H. That anda it, I think. There is 
 thfs atisstlon of th« bad d9bt6 thers to b© eak®n up. That 
 ©nda th© t»c ehests. 
 
 f/OsBK. Is ther*9 anythicg oc th« other shsst? 
 Tt is gtttins lat«, no^r, 
 
 Mr. WELLIK-3T0S. we ax-e through — unlaee you 
 want to aek scm® quest ions, ?ir. Hawkins. 
 
 Mr. HAtXItfS. I havsn»t ajjythlng to ask, havsnH 
 seen your report. 
 
 [The hearing was adjcumsd to Tu«6<lay, Xmc&s&hsr 
 31, 191-S, at 10.30 c'clook a. m. 1 
 
las 
 
 UooEi 427, State Houss^ Boston, 
 
 Tuesday, Decembar 31, 1318. 
 
 Presint: Commiosionsra Morris, Sawyer, Joz*dan ana Bird. 
 Commission ir O'Hara and Ohairmaa Allen arrived during the 
 eourse- or the- Iiearing, Oommission*?r MOHHIS presiding. 
 
 Ooamiesioner mWl^, in calling th& haaring to order at 
 11 a.m., spoke as follows? 
 
 Qentl-imen, ws want to gat right down to "ousin^sss and gat 
 through this hearing, if poaaibl.:^, tiiis asorning. ^ow, p^rh&ps 
 nanv oi' you saw in tha evening and morning papers an Itam from 
 Washinftton h'^^isded, "Trad© Competition !?cfsuaad Jariuary 1; con- 
 certed prio^ fixin* will be prosacut^d." In til's a&sana-^ of 
 anything further from Washington i^a would hav^a probably tak&n 
 our hats and gon-a homa thia morning; but .va havcs cojfamuaicatiid 
 with Washington. Th&f iiavt-- before tham the agrs«a-ejnt «hich. 
 was sn tared into in Hovember, and our orders ara to fix pricws 
 in faim-3ss- to everybody und^r that agrssm^nt. So that ws are 
 here for three sjontiis. Do -^^^ are h.#re instead of travailing 
 towards home this ^orniris^;* 
 
 Fov?, last night wa ivars considsring th© plijis of iir. 
 Es^;skins,aEd that of B, Whiting <^- Soas sid© tip by 3cov9li 
 Waliington ?- Company. Is there anything further to ba aaid in 
 refarenee to tiniBQ f igur-ss? 
 
 Mr. OUSIOK. Do you isean, as a final ot^teiaent? 
 
 Corom. M015BIS. As a final statemont. Or any critieisfli, 
 any argxaisnt of counsel or parties? 
 
 i#r. aUSIOj:* You h:ive net got the Aldsn figursis? 
 
 COBBB* M01?^Ic» No; ?.e 'i^ould like those. 
 
 Mr. aUSI'^K. Mr. dhiirarjn, I jbj just going to eoaua-nt for 
 
1 
 
186 
 
 a moimnt on tii® cost account submitted by the wliiting concerns, 
 
 and the cost account furnisiiaji by Mr. Hawicins of the K, P. 
 Hood ^ Sons conc«m. In viaw of ths f 3,ct that the tlwB is 
 iifflited on this hsartn^ I am siaipii' going to call your atten- 
 tion to cortain atmoiraal diffarencss which I do not think can 
 
 bs worked out at thio tim^^ una^r tha present conditione, xnd Xn 
 anything I aa^ 1 do not fa;; an any orltlelsiB ispon isithc^r of ths 
 accsoynts. But I daaira to cxLl it to your attention. 
 
 Ooiam» WJ^JS* I think tli& 'Joajmip?3ion is fissiliar %ith the 
 l.irg© itaras of diffardnca hora., Whll<j I dii not hear tha dis- 
 cussion ysstarday rix'tomoont I v-orkad with Mr. Sa\*y?ir last 
 avanin^ and wa want ov^r those, 'Tow, ^hat «^3cplanation ha\re 
 you got, withoiit calling attar>tion particiaiariy to th?i differ- 
 ent it.ims? liava you jot any aspianation? Or, iiovsi '^'ouid you 
 consxaar thss Ooiaraifjsion ought to traat those accounts? 
 
 Blr» CUSICK. On tiia latt^sr oroposition I dasirs to b# 
 heard,- as to how tij.a Go^nission sr^ould tr^at tiios^ — - 
 
 Cojum* a02?I3. That is ?rhit wd want to h@ar froasE you. 
 
 Mr. OySICJ". I beli3Y£ that thB aoiainission should, and I 
 reiuss't that ths Ooasr.is^ion request both partiiss to fiXts the 
 itema 0i ths boolc antriss "upon whl(±i t^hasa r*3p-JCtivQ iicaounts 
 Wi3r« ailocated. Thoss iccoimts that I r'.jf.;jr to aro th-.? follow- 
 ing: TP.@£0rr±niZ to "Jic^ statisssant 31" whols aiiii: operations of 
 B. ?. Hood -I: -Sons, Diotributors, ths i'irat pagts, xid also r>3- 
 farring to the statenisnt of &hei?s axilk oparations in th® 
 3on&3lldatad ¥Viiting Ooncsm, I r^iusat that guch data bd 
 furnished tjj© ToiKnisoion in the icsounts indicatad as 3ity 
 Ixpi^ne-s anj-.,vr Criwntry ils p«jnsc- ; labor und-sr ?ity Sxpanece; 
 refrigsration undwr Oity Expanse©; bottlss and cases under Un- 
 livery SKpkmBQ& and accounting uncl-jr Dslivsry 5xp=ns=8, and 
 I b^iiave that ths-t i»;ili ehc* ths rtjlativa b^arinr of tha 
 
. ■ "X ■; . 
 
187 
 
 depraoiation account on the UsssicinB Stateai^nt of Whole Milk 
 
 Operations . 
 
 OoBiia. M0E3IS. your first itaa of City Sxpense,- you lEt^an, 
 UBder Oountry i::xpen8€, the $6,532.09, wiiich you find in J). 
 Whiting & Sons' account? 
 
 Mr. QU3iaii. Yes. 
 
 Oomsa* isQBlUS. And tlie SJae, |l,7Sf^.46 in the; JBasifii.ins ' 
 account? 
 
 Mr, aUSiaK. YeB» 
 
 Qomra. MOS'HIS. "Riat. was not discussed yesterday, was it? 
 
 5lr, GUSIGK. Yes, it v?as discvssed. Tiriiitis, it wag dis- 
 cussed in a f-fay. i 
 
 Goaati. MOR'US. Sail, what about the ica? That wag discussed 
 considerably, ica r-ifrig':iriit.ion, yeeterday? , 
 
 Mr. Ct^PIOK, I have already referred to that. 
 
 Ooam, M)HT?IS. You hava rsferrad to refrigeration under 
 eity expenses, but you did not indieats ice undar country ex- 
 pensas. 
 
 ar» Ou!3IOE. Vjeii, if you d^ssire perhaps it '«ould fos bet- 
 ter to put In is^ also under country sxpsfnssa. Tha difference 
 
 much 
 thar© is not of V:;ry iraportanca, and tiiat ie tiie reason I did 
 
 not. But perhu,ps the two accounts say a-3 conn=5ct3d. Also a 
 afcatement of sjise-^ixaneoas expenses. By that I io not nisn 
 every detail of that aiscoilaaieous expanse ; I simply ia«an thd 
 groups of expanse that are included in the miscallansous. You 
 undwr stand ons group of |900 in on® eljnsent of expents hare 
 vaa cotapogud of 19 different items. Now, I do not cars anything 
 about the itdfflg. That group is a particulior group, so that if 
 thsy eubfflit it to the Ooociisoion as a ^roup it will be euffi- 
 Cisint. Tn.^ only purpose of tiia thing i3 to qqq who is right 
 
■ 3 .1. 
 
 .•j5a^w't"'r.c> 
 
 ■■-. ■■: \ .,^ 
 
 fiO ■'.% 
 
188 
 
 and who i? wrong. I undt?ratanci thsss figurea ar« figures 
 
 actually taken froa the booJts -and are allocated to account for 
 
 in 
 tha »iiole milk optirations, and it may be that allocation that 
 
 th5 uiffarojTias is found. I call your attention again to the 
 
 statement of »-hole miUc costs, H. P. Kood S: Sons, distributora,- 
 
 what h-i8 b«sa rsferr^d to -ts tho unit coats on pago 2, and call 
 
 your attention to the av9r&..2S aeilinij pric© of pints as «085« 
 
 aorom. MOB"^IS. Well, that wae pr<stty oarsfuiiy explained 
 yastarday. 
 
 Mr, CHJSICF:. Yes; but it &111 mik<? some difference in the 
 amoxmt of pi^fit and loss if it is a fact that th© pints ara 
 selling at the loes that the other oosnpani&a think they ar<s,and 
 if as a fact tJ,\is caULciuation cannot be taken as accurate if 
 it is admitted that the avar^ige selling price of pints *as not 
 ,G55; therefore, these figur-^g cannot b© taiien as accvirate, 
 
 I desire to druiw your iitt:;ntion also to this fact,- that 
 tlife' volinae or silk on rhat Bixsts pags is within 1S§,000 luarts 
 of the entire volume submitted to tha OoaKiission whcsn ail buai- 
 ni;s3 of tiia K. P. Hood S? Sons was concerned at ths last tis^, 
 
 0OI5M, SAWfm* rmat fisur-a a^z&ln? 135,000 quarts? 
 
 Mr, CUSIOJC. -"Bxat is a rough figure, Mr. Sawyer; but if 
 you will takiS the figure which was of farad as thJ; an tire busi- 
 neee for H. Jr. Hood * Bons, and then take tha voli^e allocated 
 to purely Breton districts, it does not seaa as if th-ira is 
 stifficiant difference toBz^^^n tJios© t-»o; but t>h'5i*e aay be. I 
 do not criticias it, but it is a thing wall <worth lookins into, 
 for this roaaon,- that if this yolucss is larger than it should 
 I be it raakea a diff^^jr^nce in tho laiit costs. And I alGO direct 
 your attention to the toted delivery expense on the sa-as sh^set. 
 
 Qoiam, M0r?Hl3. Page 2? 
 
 Mr* CU3I0K. On page 2. In tha sum total of those 
 
l.^ 
 
 »"*•.-•'• 
 
189 
 
 various itoais so submittafd instead of the items as reiulrM by 
 the book. 
 
 Now, in connection with this r^^iuest, I offt»r also, for 
 what it may ba worth, tha coabinad coat ahaeta of the Alden 
 Brothers Company for Saptambar, October and Hovarabar — or, for 
 Septeaber, in any event,- the completed sheet for Septeaber, 
 for this purpose: that tha volume of tliw Alden Brothers, and 
 dspscially tha refrigeration, rather indicates that possibly 
 thare may be sola's raistaka on the Hood ohoots on rafrigsration, 
 as the dollars anci c-nts cnarged for refrigeration in the Aldan 
 Brothsra COiapany's aosount, consiuusring Hiq voltira^? — which la 
 about ona -fifth of the ^feliiting volume — checks up substantial- 
 ly v/ith our cost. Both of them aay bs ?/rong for aH I know. 
 We hav0 andisavorsd in every way poasiblii to try and see if w@ 
 could our3.ilVQ8 find aoias explanation of thaaa differences, but 
 th« CoK^ission insisted that %e go at it the way w© did yes- 
 terday and wc got .*hat w3 could. 
 
 Now, to l3ave that subject sjnd pass to another subjsct 
 which we consider of absolute importance, and we i-ndeavsred to 
 hava th& Hood Ooapany carry out thie sam« policy, but I see that 
 it has not b&^n dona. You understand you ara d-aling with S&p- 
 teajfoar costs, ^varybody kno%-s that the costs have oaen increas- 
 ed since Sspteiaber. It is a saatt-ir of racord bars in rag-iird to 
 labor costs, ^hich became affective after this shaet was made. 
 I think perhaps, if I asa not mistaken, ther-j have i>c^n Uo 
 changes in labor coats, on thv basis of our Septembdr accounts. 
 ®e hav0 brought down our costs to January of 191*^. 
 
 On page- 4 of the Whiting Ooiupany account you will find tha 
 consolidatod statenont of estimated whole aiiik xn quarts for 
 the month of January, based upon Sept ember figures and Xnown 
 increases. In other words, tha known incroasos, thu actual 
 
i 
 
 4 
 
 t*v,v : B3 3;;c 
 
 
190 
 
 incr-iasec up to the 25 th of Deotimbsr, or *,ha 24 th of Da camber. 
 In the various itass that are compi-ahendod by this cost ac- 
 counting of S^pteiabsr were actually taken and added to the 
 Septsmber figures,- the actual incrc-ases in costs. The only 
 difficulty, then, of course, in ori^r to gat imit costs, «as 
 to g-st the voltiEie for January, and that, of course, was a dif- 
 ficult thing. 
 
 Hovj, in oriar to ,ret tha nrost practical thing for the 
 CoiamisGion we did tiiis: 'as took the actual volume of tha eixUs; 
 sold for the firat 20 days in Decembar, thg actual volume gold 
 as family, as store, sholesal© and as cann-^d milk, ani than ws 
 took that actual volume :ind put it into the 30 days so as to 
 Biak^ It cofflgjarable with September, b.icaus9 usually the volijms 
 figured that way would be as nearly accurate for January as 
 possibly could be had under the- circumstrmcas. Wd found tiiat 
 our family business for t2i9 month of DeQ-Bm'OQT wO'xLd be substan- 
 tially lloX of our family business for B'jptembsr. That :say 
 be accounted for by the fact that this year in September !:.any 
 psople had not ratumsd from tJioir summer rcsidsncas, and so 
 forth, and perhaps the family trade at that tim« might have b^on 
 a little off. That is the way wa account for that. We found, 
 however, that our wholesale business v>?as 80X of tlis business in 
 Ssptsmber. Our cmnsd Dusiness wxs 85/? of Sapt^mbar. 
 
 Oomra. HO"RI?IS. The wholesale business dropped off? 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. Y9S. Tli3 wholesale s"^.or3 busin:sE3 as SCjjf 
 Of what it was in saptembsr. Tha rsduction in volume in Jan- 
 uary and if'sbruary will probably ba in tha stora :ixid canned 
 busindss* W« also found that the cann^jd busin-sss was 85X of 
 that,- ISX off. How, that is subs tan <:i ally as n.;ar .as can ba 
 on the same volume of trade cusLomars that -w© had in September. 
 That is, thj changes on^ way or the- oth-^r were inf inittisimal. 
 
■J aiJ^ 
 
 
 •io;a uT'. rs. 
 
191 
 
 When this thing was workad out»and the nsathod of working out 
 
 j I cosuaunicatod with. ilr. Gilbsrt, I aaktdd Mr. Gilbert to coa- 
 i 
 municata sith iir. Hawkins — Mr. Hawkins may or bj^ not hava 
 
 been in town at the time -- and ask if the Hood Ooapany could 
 do likewise, so that you viOiJ.d have hare today for the prices 
 of January, is'ebruary and March, the very beat work that we 
 eould do and the beat information that you could have as show- 
 ing the costs of diatribution and processing and delivery of 
 milk. 
 
 Sow, to pass from that 
 
 Gomm. M01?BIS. Beforo- you pass from that. This whole ssula 
 trade, which you say has dropped off, is duo to what? *hat is 
 the explanation of it? 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. I ;4a going to ask Mr. Charles ¥thiting to make 
 that explanation, Mr. Morris. Because, whiia X havs haard it 
 talkM ovar, I do not think I have bes^n into it sufficiently 
 to exprass it as ay own opinion. ,; : 
 
 Coaai. MOBl'IS. That trade probably is Dupplied all the 
 year around,- resides here. Hot th^f people who go to their 
 sujamer homes. And is it due to the fact that they use less 
 milk on account of hi,^ prices? 
 
 Mr. OUSICJK. I think there are a number of elemants that 
 enter into it. I will speak broadly of the matter, gencfrally. 
 In tJfie first place, t>w shifting population in Boston. I tiiink 
 that perhaps we woxald oe surprised if fta kne;t the number of 
 Visitors that visit Boston, especially during the months of 
 August, September and October. And 1 think th-ir supply would 
 more generally come from the wholesale and the canned business 
 thsm it wo'-ild from the family business. I think that is one 
 item,- that if we knew juct the shifting of the popiilation of 
 Boston it would surpriee us considerably. In oth^r words, they 
 
i>OA.:.\;C'-C'; 
 
 
 ■a r; ^' :;. ■ >.- i.^; i.i-:--u 
 
 Vi- 
 
 i ..■ ri.i 
 
 '.i: 
 
192 
 
 use a lot of milk, and in all hveaiai probability that siilk com<ie 
 
 either from stores or hotsla* according to where tiisy are stay- 
 ing. 
 
 Comm, MOHT?IS. But your hotal trade during the month, of 
 JDecamDer probably would ba in excess of Ssptamber. That is, 
 aore people visit in the city in the winter time, in December, 
 than in the suminar 
 
 Mr. OUBIcac. That ie the point; I do not tiiinic so. I 
 think your biggest shifting population in Boston is during tltm 
 nonths of Septaaiber and October. That ig only my judgment, 
 you know, 
 
 Coirim. MO'R'RIS. Well, ;;'jr. Whiting aaay havy an explanation. 
 
 Mr. OKAHLES WHITIHG. The Jeciine in store trade, in 
 wholesale trade, is due in pnrt to seasonal chan^^s, weathsr 
 Changes. There is always a rr^duced consump^-.ion in cold waather. 
 And than, further, that vi-as accentuat«sd by the increased price 
 of bottlted tniUc. The decline in th's sales of canm^d milk is 
 due to tha seasonal weather changa, and also lu« to reduction 
 in Government orders. Thsre has been a marked reduction in 
 the Goverraaant demand sines the signing of the armistice. 
 
 Ooajm. MOB'RIS. Is tnsre anyone to spsaJc for Mr. Hood on 
 that point? Do you agre?^ %ith Sr. Whiting as to tha r^asone 
 for — or do you anticipate th^rs will bs any reduction in 
 consump tion? 
 
 Mr» MILLSTT. Yes, as a whole, som-:J slight decrease in 
 consumption in January as compared with Ssptemb-ir. 
 
 Soiffia. MOM?IS. Between Septembar and Decembar or January? 
 
 Mr. MILLETT. Yes. In a general kind of way there is 
 soma falling off on wholesale trade. 
 
 Oomra. MOBT^IS. How much of that is due to thj prices, in 
 your judgment? 
 
; '■<!- -^rx-.y 
 
133 
 
 Mr. MILL3TT. W<5ii, that is a difficxilt qiujstion to answer, 
 Mr* Oosffiiission&r. I aai not prep:drsd to say. Of coiirse, I think 
 somo of that is aue oecause prices ar© hi^^^sr now th^i txiey 
 wars in Septyatoar. But broadly speaking th-sre ie a little drop- 
 ping off on the ¥/hDle8ala trade in the loonth of January, almoet 
 Invariably. Just how much it v/ili bo this year I do not pre- 
 tend to know, 
 
 Comrn, M0TOI5. Weather conditions will probably affect it? 
 If any graat amount of reduction in consumption i£3 due to the 
 prices, it prosants rather a difficult problem, ao3sn*t it, for 
 the domM scion? 
 
 Mr, GUSIGK, Ys3. It is an unfortunate thins, but you 
 can*t halp it. I hav* no aoubt that th^ra would be mora milk 
 sold if WW could sell it at tJas old price of 3 c^nts than at 
 16 cents. But it has been rather remarkable,- I think 1 can 
 say that our -sxperisnoo h?is bimn. tiiat the high pries has really 
 not affected the voltan-- as much .la anybody would r^^asonably 
 9xp©ct it would. That is about true, isn't it? 
 
 Mr. OHAH-ES WHITING. Yes. 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. Wa have look-^d into thai: as car^ifully as '#»e 
 knew how, and ws havs btsen rathar surprised oursalvss. 1 think 
 i?aatii-3r conditions hcis a great dsal more affect on it tlian the 
 pricss hav© at all times, 
 
 Coinm. MOB"RIS. I interruptad you in what you were saj'ing. 
 
 Mr, OUSIGK. The value of a sheet compiled that way aust 
 appeal to the CoBsnis si oners. And, furtheriaore, the forca of 
 what I was trying to get at in regard to the few discrapancies,- 
 If those accounts which I havi r'^f^rrad to in ;:sy first state- 
 mont were nearly tha same,- just those few accounts,- you would 
 have a ramarkabls consistency in your cost accoxmt ii>:2riii much 
 mors so than what we had any r-ason to ^jxpect. 
 
■ '• t 
 
 p' i. \i'. '' 
 
 ■H<'1 
 
 . -I :-. 
 
X»4 
 
 Just to go badk for a moiaant, thsre i« some jaiistaka tnere, 
 
 in xay iudgffi^;;nt, oithar on our part or on others, 3i tiier in allo- 
 cation or something of that kind. Ana if we h^id time thers is 
 no doubt we could ^ork it out. i&hy I thiink that perhaps it la 
 a mistake on the Kood side is, of couroe, Mr. Hatskins did not 
 have tha tiia«? to go into the thing tiiat Scoveli Wellington & 
 Oomgcmy aid. Ke had to do it vary q\iickly. And tha further 
 thing that the figures on the Aldan Brothers CJompiany rather sup- 
 port our oontisntion that %» are near right, taking thair voluma 
 into consido^ration. 
 
 That is -dLll there is to that. 
 
 Gonm, UOWIB* Have you a copy of those Alien figures? 
 
 Mr, CUSICK. Yqs, sir, (distributing copies of statement). 
 
 Ooiffia. SA1TS"R. Mr, Cusick, I would like to ask you what 
 your opinion is on the volume of hiisinctss for J'abruary and Earch 
 as compared with Saptember? You jutva only giv^n it to us for 
 tha dycrsase in volume on January sales. 
 
 Mr. OUSJOiw. We took it on th=3 near^fst aonth, I e»ill ask 
 Mr. Whiting to atatd his opinion on tiiat. 
 
 Oosjm. SAWYEB. Oan you givw us that, air. Whiting, bacause 
 !»■# ara supposed to fix the prices for three sonths. 
 
 Mr* 0IIA"8LES WiilTlKG. I should think witJi th© facta «© 
 have, offhand, that tha astiaiata for January would obtain for 
 S'ebruas^ mid jaarch. Of coiirse, we do not know what pric-js will 
 bs promulgattsd. 
 
 0OHE3. idOH'HIS. Well, hitvtt you any foresight or prophacy 
 as to fji0 labor qu-astion for th-.; n^^xt thrse months? I see by 
 tiie papers that labor is vary plentiful. 
 
 Mr. WHITI54G. I triink wd have* probably riiiich^d tha height 
 Of 0Xpenos, but I doubt if th^^rt? will be any dc-crsasa isffootivti 
 in the next few aaonths. 
 

 ;,-, i , _ -i 
 
 i. i"*, O >~ 
 
 
 V!'iA; ,i;:\- t; "*-,/* 
 
x± 
 
 1«5 
 
 Cosffii. SAWYSB. What has bean the history of the volume of 
 sales in the past for January, February and March? Do you hava 
 that in mind? As compared with Septeisibtfr. 
 
 Mr, WEITISG. My recollection ie that it runs along about 
 tJia same • 
 
 Oooaa. SAWVii:^. The same ae what; September? 
 
 Mr, WHITING. January, j'abruary and ISarch, 
 
 Oowm, SAWYSB. Wotild run along the same as Saptembsr? 
 
 Mr, WHITING. No, sir. Js'ebruary and March would, run about 
 as January. 
 
 Ooaan, SAWfZTf, And January lowar than September somewhat? 
 
 Mr. MilTINn, Yes, sir, Jiatinctly. 
 
 QoBus, SAWYEB. That is tha past history? 
 
 Mr, WKITIHG. That is always trus. 
 
 Ooaam. SAWYSB. Would that b9 your opinion, :-<,ar* Mlllatt? 
 
 Mr. MimSTT. I ?.*as trying to iooic baclc ovar this ysars as 
 air. Whiting was taUsing. As a gansral etateaant, ysss, I think 
 that is all right. I think thsr© may be a very slight increas© 
 in i'abiniary, perhaps* Uot v^ry cauch. i'ebruary is an expensive 
 month In which to do business. I ciill your attention to that. 
 It is A short month. - 
 
 Ooram, BISD. Mr, Whiting, just what are the things -mich 
 go in to msLkd the increased cost in ^^zpenss on your estimate 
 here outside of th^^ decrease involums? What are soma of the 
 items that have increased in cost sinca the suronier? 
 
 ^r, WIHTIFS, That is, what have increassd tha January 
 over ths Ssptsmb-^r costs? 
 
 Oornn, BI'BD, Yos. 
 
 3lr, WHITING. An increase in plant labor, an increase in 
 ©tabla labor, some increase in offi<» labor. Of course there 
 aro sons© seasonal increases: thii fuel item is heavier in the 
 
,.wTirt-r 
 
 . ■ ' -■•■I 
 
 
 "£:• 
 
18 
 
 196 
 winter. On the othar hand, the ice it am is less, Thara ara 
 some seasonal chan^ds I don't thlrlk of. But thos-a ara ths prin- 
 cipal onaa. 
 
 Coiam. 3ITU)» How much iijifi your plant labor Incraas^d? 
 Mr. WHITING. Th.3 plant labor has incr-aased lo/; stable 
 labor, 25;^. 
 
 ilr, HAWKINS. May I make a stat@mant? 
 Ooam. M0'R1?IS. Tos. 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. I would like to stats soaisthing in connaction 
 with these reports. 
 
 Ooitsn. MOB?JS» We will give you a chance latar. 
 Mr. CUSiaK. I might say that 'Jjr* Perkins is hor© now, 
 and if you desiro, Mr. Bird, ha zm go into thw dytail and tt^ll 
 you how he oompilsd that January accoxait. 
 
 Comm. BIIiD. I think ycu have explained how hs cosipiled it, 
 as far as that is concsmsd. I just -^ant^sd to know istfiat somw of 
 the details were that m ade tha increased cost over September. 
 Primarily labor has increased over Heptsaber. Mr. ilillstt, do 
 you coincids with that statemant of Mr. Whiting as to your 
 labor increase? 
 
 Mr. HIIXE7T. There may have b^im soms labor increases 
 since Ssptembsr, yes. 
 
 Ooaara. BIRD. What ?i^ouid go in to ra-aks up ths inoraassd 
 cost for yoii in tJrie Eaonth of January ovar Saptaaber? I 
 
 Mr. MILLETT. As I say, I did not g^it this statsimsnt of 
 iir. Hawkins' until about noontime yesterday, so that I had no 
 chance to aaka any detailed study along that line, of coxirae. 
 Thare hava baen some labor increases along tha linos Mr. Whiting 
 aisntioned. And ws havs a heavier bottle expense through br^ak- 
 ago in cold weather than wc do in warm -.vjathar. Just how much I 
 hsavior that is, of course, depands a good d^al upon *<hat tho I 
 
vj J&()C> 
 
 'tl:.\i- - coy I 
 
 i'^Uy' 
 
 i 
 
 a i: ■ 
 
±id 
 
 X97 
 
 weather is during the winter months. Then I call your attention 
 
 to the fact that i'ebruary ie a 28-day month and that the fixed 
 charges figured out on a monthly baaiB are necessarily higher 
 par day on the 28-deiy aonth than on a 30 or 31-day month, 
 
 Ooiam, BIBD. Takan coilsctivsiy for the thriis aonths, how 
 isrould th«y figure out? 
 
 Mr. MILLSTT. 1 don't know very aauch about that, I hava 
 in mind particularly i'sbruary. *ith tha hard going that we gst 
 mors or iess in the wintar aiontha thts tia* spent is apt to run 
 tt little higher. I do not t^iink of anything alse particularly, 
 at ths aoraent. 
 
 Comm, ail?!). On your lat)or. What labor haa advanced with 
 you? 
 
 Mr, MILLSTT. The piunt labor hoB adv-sinc^d to aoiavi extent, 
 
 Oo2iia, BfHD. Ko^- much? 
 
 Mr. .lILIJilTl'. I haven't tiiat in mind; I couldn't say, 
 
 Oocaa. BIRD, \3ould you give ma xny idsa? 
 
 Hr. I-HLLSTT. Sinco September? iiell» I thinic yesterday I 
 said tjaere may have bQ^n a general advano'^j on everything except 
 tJia drivers, which was effective with September, the last in- 
 crease, I thini: it aiity oe a,s niuoh as 10X« 
 
 Comrn. BIR0* That includt=ts youi* plant ana your stable both? 
 
 Mr. MILLETT. Yes. Practically all tiie help except tha 
 drivers, 
 
 CoGua. JOHDAH, Bow about tJie stable labor, 2r, iSillett? 
 
 Mr. MILLSTT. I said, all labor except the cir ivers. That 
 lOX is rather an offhcuid statement, you under etand. I have not 
 compared it, 
 
 Oomm, BII?D. 21r, Millett, you concur ^ith 'dr, Whiting that 
 there IS a decreased voluae normally in the :?«>nthc of January, 
 J'sbruary and March, as compared with September? 
 
^ .. -..■/; > 
 
14 
 
 1^ 
 
 Jlr. MILLSTT. Yes. 
 
 Oosaa. BISD. And th-if aecrtsased volume plus thase szaaH 
 inerstases in expenc© yoti figure will make an incraas««d cost in 
 thoso months? 
 
 Mr» MILIBTT. Yes. 
 
 Ooam. BISD. Havs you got any figures or anything to siiow 
 ^pproxiaately what figure that Lnor^ase will &3 over Sapteaber? 
 
 Mr. MILLETT. Uo; but I said a xaoment ago I <lian*t get 
 these figxa-es and have a chance to study tlaim. until just about 
 noon yesterday, ana I have- not had a chance to work that out, 
 
 Cosaa. BIHD. In coaiparing tills sh/set of tiia Miiting Cosi- 
 psanj, sheet 4, «rith thsir sheet 1, would you feel tiiat those 
 advances woi;J.d ba equally la.rg<2 with the Hood Oompany, or not? 
 
 Mr. MIIISTT. Weil, I should tiUnJc, ^lanoing ov^^r it 
 hastily, that he was a littio low in his estimate on famili-^s, 
 and possibly a little high in his estimatad increase an whole- 
 sale. 
 
 Oomrs. BIHD. You ar^ talking now of volxiae or expense? 
 
 Mr. MILLETT. Weil, I am put-.ing his total figures — - 
 
 Gojsa. BIHD. You thinJk his increase is a little lom on 
 family and a little too gr^at on wholesale and store? 
 
 Mr. MILLBTT. I fehink tri-it would be our expyri^nca, with- 
 out a chaact^ to study it very carefully. 
 
 COHsa. BIIO. Well, in applying thesa increases to your 
 business, if ths svm total of those — sea if I c-Ji explain what 
 I ma an — how would ths siaa total incr.-:ase in cost apyly in 
 its division to your company? I mean, if the sum total of 
 these incraases amounted to a certain amount of additional wx- 
 ponse, how MOuld they apply in your business? You say that one 
 is too high .md the othvjr too low. 
 
 Mr. alLLETT. I do not bcjlieve I could make, without an 
 

 r;.. 
 
 
xo 
 
 X99 
 
 oxtendud atudy, a isiore dsfinita stat^isent than that. 
 
 Cofflm. BI"R15« How soon could you glvs to the Oointaisaion a 
 atat&m&nt as to how much you vsould te^X tiu increaae would ba to 
 the Hood Company on these comparative bases? 
 
 Mr. MILLSTT. Well, anything except a snap judgment would 
 take luitQ a little study. 
 
 GOfflja. BI!?D» The 3onEsisaion would hava to mJce that 
 judg^aent Tor you, I guess, in tnat s<ise, :xnd possibly their 
 judgment f»ovild not be as good as yours* 
 
 Mr. 'dILLETT* I hatd to mAk& a stataxji^int I oan*t baek up 
 afterwards. 
 
 Mt, J, K. WillTIHG. I think both Sr. Mills ^t ana my brother 
 neglectad to call attention fco tii^ shrinkage in cold weather. 
 That is an item thatt is considsrabiy laore in freyzing weather 
 than in the ordinary days. 
 
 Corani. 3IBI). How much raore? . - . 
 
 Mr. WHITI¥G. I should astiatite it *ua at i^ast a third; 
 perhaps more than that. You understand that the equipmsiht the 
 railroad coap-iniss furnish le not adsiuate '^ithar for propssr 
 refrigeration of mil^ nor to prevent the freezing of tailk in 
 cold a@at.her. Last winter «e hafi frozen silk continually. We 
 do not knoss, of coursti, what the veathar conditions iJ.re going 
 to be this winter, but if they are anything lUcs v/liat they ssrere 
 last ainter there will be -juite a serious shrinkage &Vtiry week 
 oauoiijd by thawing that milk out. 
 
 Oh^iinaan MORRIS* ihat da you do with thti frozen milk? 
 
 "^r. WlflTISG. liavo to thaw it out. 
 
 Comm. MOPPIS. The added exxjense comes in t.hu thawing? 
 
 Mr. WHITISG. Yes. And of course aora or lose of it will 
 stick to the can. Where it stretches out and takijs timj, the 
 aen are not as careful and some of it .goes thax>u3h the washer 
 
ric; 
 
 V. ai^a^fc 
 
16 
 
 200 
 
 and is wasted. 
 
 Goiffia. BI'RD. If that ia tha cas«, why didn't you put do«(n 
 thid milk shrinkage in your estimated cost for January, as you 
 hav'i for 5?wpt«siat)ar? 
 
 Hr. WHITI¥Q, I think you r?iii havtf to ask my brotinir why 
 it was not put in. But I think h«s will agjres with jsq©, and tiiat 
 Mr* MlXldtt wiii agra<i with ina, that that is qui lis an important 
 item. My brothsjr corapiled thoae figuris and perhaps it was an 
 oversight on his part that attention was not called to that whan 
 thoss f iguTttS ware made up. 
 
 (Oommissioner O'Hare arrives.) 
 
 Mr. GUSIOK. How, Mr. Ohairaian, I want to turn to tha 
 Alden Brothers 0ompany*8 reports for tm zaonths of September, 
 Octooar imd Movasmber, in conformity with your uniform classifi- 
 cation. Ana for tiia purposes of tha record I want to point out 
 to you thiit tho nat loss in r'epteabar on th«,» fluid laiik biisis 
 was |39G, »hich was 17/iOO of one per cunt, lass tiian ths 6 
 per cant invastraeat whi<^ you understand is in your uniforiB 
 classification. 
 
 Gojfflm. MOB?JS. Just a soaont. Will you giv3 jas that again? 
 That does not correspond '»aith the f igursjs which I seam to have 
 got somswhsrs. I have got a gain of |79.09. Wh^ra did I gst 
 thosa figures? 
 
 Mr, AMBAOK. Tii&t is only one sheet. If you havs the 
 stats^ssiint of whola xailk operations it srill give- you th-j total 
 milk. 
 
 Soiaa. EGBBIS. That was tha r23ult of tha pi-ofit and loss 
 shset TKhioh was turned in to us last night,- a gain of $75.09. 
 
 l!r. 3USI0K. So, Mr. 'Jhairman, it is important that we 
 should differentiate. Tha profit and loss shsiet which you have 
 boan getting has been th^ profit and loss sheet according to j 
 
n.i ,:i V ij: 
 
 ^i:>-;n.-^-. 6;y*l;. 
 
 ..;^u...; 
 
 ;^,\; 
 
17 
 
 201 
 
 the booke on th<? whole buainsas. Now, this that I am now ra- 
 counting to you is your profit or lose imdar your unifora 
 classification and pertains solely and entirely to the fluid 
 milk. 
 
 Oojnm. MOBBIS. I sae. 
 
 Mr» OUSIOK. In the month of October nvs account shows 
 
 $82.61 gain, or gubotanti:illy l/so of ona par cent, in sxcsss 
 
 of the 6 por Cv^nt on investsjent. In the month of Wovembar tha 
 
 account shows |1,791.35, or practically 3/% of ona per cent. 
 
 on 
 ).os8, aiiniis, the 6 per csnt.lnvestm-ant. Just to ^lanca at his 
 
 entire November accoimting will indicata perhaps one of the 
 questions which is tsroubling the Oommissioner thare, md shows 
 whara the volume of milk begins to drop. 
 
 I axs no-s? going to ask Mr. Amback to take hie first state- 
 ment, that of the whole milk operations for S^^ptember, and 
 rsfar ©spociaily to tJie itsm of refrigeration for the bearing 
 it would have on the stateiTjsnt that I have made that the Aiden 
 Brothers Oompany carries out practically our contention about 
 that refrigeration item. And he will ^sxplain othsr triings 
 tha ra in connection witii ths Allan Brothers* sheets, s/hich h© 
 thinks r^iuirs attention, and which he can do better than I 
 could. ■' ■ • 
 
 STATEMEITT BY Hf^GlHAUJ AJIBAOK. 
 
 Mr. AM3ACJK. The item of rafrigeration in our sheet haadad 
 •Stateitaent of Whole Milk Operations ror tha Jionth of Jjeptambar" 
 is |1,280, -xs compar^sd with |6,lii on th3 Whiting she^t. Our 
 voluae is approximately one-fifth of Whitings' so that thosa 
 axponsss s^'em to be* in about that proportion. 
 (3y Mr. Ousick.) Kill you tell how you got that acco^lnt, idr. 
 
m) 
 
 uo V. 
 
 •,:.*«i7v5 '31; vtfec 
 
18 
 
 202 
 
 Aaback? A. That item of raf rigerat ion is only the cost of 
 the ice f.o.b. our plant. Wa have no system of rafrigsration. 
 We buy all our ice usjd for refrigeration. 
 
 Taken from the actual books? A. That itsai is taksn from our 
 books and can be supported by vouchers and entries on the books. 
 Did you allocate that it*m? A. That item is allocated to 
 alXk as against crsam, buttarmilk and skim, on vhich the ice 
 is used* 
 
 Comtn. BIRD. How did you allocate it? On what basis? 
 
 Mr, AMBAOK. As rs^uired in the book. 
 
 Mr. CUSIGK. Le wants to know dofinitaly. Go right into it 
 
 CoEEn. MOHBIS. That calls for a percentage, doesn't it? 
 
 Mr. CUSICK. H© will do it. 
 
 Mr, A^AOK. Bafrigeration is undier th-a heading of Oity 
 Sxpans^sS and inoludiid in the item * Processing" on tiie Unit 3ost 
 sheet. That was allocatad on tht following basis; Pints as 
 z/4 of a luart, whether it is croi^, butti2raiilk, skim, or what 
 Aas in thy bottle; ^snd. cans on tha basis spoken of on page 1,- 
 1 luart of milk siuivalent to 3-1/P, quarts of can milk. In 
 othsr words, I cailsd a 3uart of creaa just tiia saciu as a luart 
 of milk, and a ^uart of butt4jrmilk the same as a -juart of lailk 
 in applying that basis, as it took as much iC3 for cream or 
 butteraiilk as it woxild for whole lailk. 
 
 Comm. MOBP.IS. Vou harvest the ice yourself? 
 
 Mr^ AMBAOK. We do not. Tns ice under the item ■refriger- 
 ation* to which we are referring was bought as ice and not har- 
 vested 07 oxirsjlves. The ice undsr country axpenses v;as harvost- 
 ed by ourselves. We do not have enough to ship to the; city. 
 
 OocBn. xOtlV-lS* Lot mn ask, mt, Cusick, whether the Plaiting 
 Company has their own ice? 
 
 Mr. CUSICK. Yes. We do, don't we, Mr. Whiting? 
 
t^nP-^ <i V A '.-ii "'.>• 
 
 # 
 
 ili'&OO' 
 
 
 
 '^!-tLtniiKi% c^oi Sill . 
 ■:'.rl::s.( va ■. 
 
 i 
 
 ■i..£?^. ^-:=/J;.:i 
 
19 
 
 203 
 Mr. OHABLSS WKITIHQ. Yes. 
 
 Mr. 3USICK. I know thera are a numbar of xoa hous-as ail 
 over tho lot. 
 
 OoffiBB. 220"RT?1S. Go ahead. 
 % (By Mr. Ousiek. ) Whit were you paying for ica in ^sptembar? 
 
 Bo yoii remsiaber? 
 A (By Mr. Amback. ) Mo, I do not. 
 
 Q You can g&t thosa figurao, oan't you, if we ?/ant tham? 
 A I can get tJiem if they ars wranted. 
 
 Mr, CUSIOK. To interrupt, :2r» :;hairman, I might state for 
 Mr. John K. Whiting that the Brighara Company and tha Sim ij*ana 
 Corapany buy their city ica. DonH you harvest ice too? 
 
 Mr. JOHH K. Whiting. Country. '■ - 
 
 Mr. OUSICK. Harvest ice in the country but buy city ico. 
 I). Whiting & Sons harvest all their ice. 
 
 Ooraoi. MO'H^IS. How did you put that ice into the account 
 hare? At the going city prices or what it costs you to harvest 
 it? 
 
 Ht. CUSIOK. At cost. 
 
 Mr. SEARS. I remembor at the hearing «e had before the 
 Interstate Ooamjarc© Ooxnmission two y stars ago the juastion of 
 cost of icing cars came in, and there w^re figures ahown by 
 the railroad company of tha cost of icing cars then. They wisre 
 icing cars in Massaehusstts and dealers were icing outside 
 Massachusetts. 2:low, the railroad companias* cost of icing, a^ 
 I recall it, was savssn or diight timds grt>ater thsai the d^ai^irs* 
 costs. 
 
 Costm, M01?T?IS. I saw that statera^tint made in some report. 
 
 Ur, CUSICK. You may proceed, Mr. Amback. 
 
 Mr. A1©A0K. I would like to call your at^-jntion to the 
 fact that our selling cost of pints in Ssptainber was .08195, 
 
J 
 
 :' SDX .■*'- 
 
 ::. ■-■ J i .' .6 •-- 
 
 = r -^.r?:? ' n^a-m'^A-^ v 
 
 v;fM/:^A ;v-i.i~,^ G-i :.>£»& j 
 
 ■ci.i.^1-" i--*i^ 
 
 3*':os n,: yv 
 
 ^ i-^; ,|-:TO>&r 
 
«v/ 
 
 A 
 
 Q 
 
 <l 
 
 204 
 
 as compared with the Hood cost of .085, ana th^ whiting of 
 
 .0823. 
 
 That would aaks about 4 mills diff;3rsnoe by.s©d on your 
 
 Between 3 and 4 mills per pint difx'orance. 
 
 3aji you tall me from your axp^^riance which i© t,hd hardest bus- 
 inscs on bottles and cases, family or stor-s business? I mean, 
 \>y th& •hardast", in ^-hich line do you loss ths most 'bottles? 
 We ii83 t.ha stors feottls, eo wij actually lose non« in tha stares 
 on the store bottlas, while we lege a great asany on the fasiilie& 
 But previous to having fiie stora bottles, the store loss aaa 
 much haavior than tiie fouaiiy, 
 
 I i:v.-an, talking about ths loso now. Undar the present condi- 
 tions lindar which you ars working, is youa* lose more in bottles 
 in f amilisg or in sitoras? A» In families. 
 
 What do you say about tlxt? increase or decrease of business in 
 January, js'ebruary and March? A. If you will notisa our 
 Hov^iaber aheetis as comparsd with Septambar, you ^^iil notice 
 that our stor^i volume dropped froai -55,000 in Sept0iab«r to 77,000 
 la ^C'VamifC'ti our n&zex from 127,000 ia Ssptaatbsr to 12i,0C>0 in 
 Hovc-mber, Ws have b^sa rather surprised at th© aarKad dscrcaee 
 in thci atora triads. That is partly accounted for toy thd wiv-ath- 
 ©r, Vat W3 -ira unHOia to aooouafe for such a marked decrease as 
 Via felt Jilong in th« jfidnth of 'Joveabar. In Daoimber our voliia^ 
 of store luarts tvili prooably bs cven j.«>as than Kovsmber. I 
 hava no Januitry sheot, here, but I think our January costs 
 will not b0 far diffarent from our 'Sovumbtir, probably slightly 
 highei^ bec;:iu6« tha volume will be slightly lass, as far as wa 
 con see ahcaad* 
 
 Coaaa. O'HAPvS. H-iVe you aade any xniuiries as to thtJ 
 causj of failing off of trnds? 
 
 2»'r. Aii3ACi:» 1 io not just underoi^and what you mean* 
 
• ■- 
 
 ^t.rii 
 
 
 ,. 5:S> 
 
 UJ 
 
 ".. f'<' ':/ 
 
 •i-.-.» ,'..::-: 
 
 !,.^: • :■*■-- 
 
S05 
 
 Iniuiri^a of ¥»tiom? 
 
 Comaa. 0*HA'??:3. Of the a tor a dealers* 
 
 Mr, ASIBACK* Why, I hiiv?s not psrsonaiXy, no. As far as I 
 kno-ft, thjsy do not knoi# thamsjivas why it is, 1 1 is such a v^^ry 
 saall loss on sach store that no on* s* orsxaepi^r v»ouid notice 
 any appreciable loss on his own busina^ss; but wiidn you dis- 
 tribute it over a nicabsr of hundred stores it aawjunts to a son- 
 aidera^lG loss* 
 
 Ooaim, SIItDs Mr, Aiaback, what ia it that has incr^aesd 
 your coats over Septsrab^r? 
 
 Mr* ./UIBAQK, Ths? vsry it&rm that Ur, Whitin^^ and Ur* Mili- 
 ott have spokan of, 
 
 Soaom, BIHD» Wait & minxite. Bo you concia: in thsir state- 
 fflifents as to the cause? - '■ ■■-- 
 
 j Jar, AMEACK. I dOs Largely labor* partly d.i>crea8sd volume, 
 
 ae our sheet will show, 
 
 Oomm, BIKD, How lauch h-^s libor Incr-aased? 
 
 Mr, ^3ACa<., Why, w-a ara undt^r f>i& Union schedule* Our 
 figures aru the s-ame as Mr. Whiting's, • 
 
 dossn^ BIIU). Tharc? eaeass to bo 30KJf« liffarenc^ of oi;inrion 
 bstwesa th» Whiting Ccspany and the Kool Goapany as to what 
 that percentage is, 
 
 Mr, AMBAOJ:, WqH, that is tha ri-ason. 
 
 Coma, BIBD, What percentaga do you mj^e it? About what 
 psr cant has that increased? 
 
 Mr, AMB*\CK. You want the percent of increase in the 
 different departments? 
 
 Ooma, Bl'HD* Yes, 
 
 Hr. AiSSBAOK* Wsll, offh;md I Ciin*t. give you that; but I 
 do Jcnow -w^ ara undsr tho Union oohadul©, and we pay tha same 
 prices tne Whiting Compioy doss. I could ask Mr. Whiting. 
 
" '?.!=^ -ru .-Vii.^'-. 
 
 i: c^>/ 
 
22 
 
 206 
 
 Oojam. BIHI). lie has told mi, Don't you know ffhat it is? 
 
 Mr* AMBAOJ:. I know we are payin.-s tM- sase as the ^Tilting 
 Company. If you want m& to get thnt froa our oooks I will Od 
 glad to do it. 
 
 Gonaa. BIl^D. I would just like to get something that »oxild 
 harmonize here between you -jxid the Whiting Compaiy and tha Hood 
 Company, if you are all ^laying the saaa scale. 
 
 ^r, ASSACK. I don*t know that we are. 7ha Eood Oompany 
 cloos not Bmploy Union m^in, you know, and do not naceaaarily pay 
 the sase as we do. 
 
 Mr. SSAHS. Tha Hooa Oorapany pays mor-j, I tiiink, than the 
 Wni'lng Goap iniss do, 
 
 OoHsra. 5AWYSB. Mr. Araback, have you your three shsats 
 headed "Stateta^nt of ishole ^ilk Operations* I'or Septembsr, 
 Octooer and Soverabjr right b-^jfora you? Oan you arrange them in 
 front of you? 
 
 Mr. AlBASK. Ail right, X hav^^ tiieia. 
 
 Ooma* SAWY^. How, your s-ales of whold milk for the 
 iQonth of .Hovoaibv3r ars |2,500 mors than m Ssptemb^r, in round 
 nmabers? 
 
 Mr. AMBACK, Yes. 
 
 Ooaso, ??AWY3:B. Your expenses for Jlov^zsb^r, |4,000, prac- 
 tically, aors in Movamh^r tnan in Saptember. 
 
 Ui*. AMBACK. That is true. 
 
 Ooaxna. SAWYJ)!?. Now, isn't your incriasad loss, then in 
 "^'ovcnxber, over your loos in Sap*;amber — of ooursu, oarrxng 
 intssrest which you char^i off as a part of your «xp«nsa of do- 
 ing businass — dlu'd to tha liffarancj in ths cost of -^hole 
 milk sold" In ?Jcvinib3r 52,400; Sypto'mbar 28,0CC, practically 
 |4,0G0. In othsr worde, your whol« milk cost you §4,000 mor^ 
 in li"0V(3inber than it oia in S^pt^jmb^r. 
 
c 
 
 ctedz ,>:JiC-C h— '• ■'"^^- 
 
 « « 
 
a^ 
 
 5307 
 
 Mr* AMBAC?3i. It did, but you will rrfoadi the prisu» tfia 
 
 CojBmlssioa s^i't tor mXXk was s<jffie«iiat mor®. I iiiiv©n*t th«? 
 figure in mini, 
 
 O0i3xsi« SAWYii"R. Weii, I ¥<as trying to acisount for tnat, 
 
 Mr, AHBAOK. And tiia seiiin^ priori waa also more, ■tthxah 
 aa]c3s our dollars and csnts salss laor* for Hovembsr than Sap- 
 t;iEiber» ^Uiougii «=■* eoid a gr«at auiao-,sj- oi; :iuarta 1-iss, its is 
 8hO'ife-a icy our Bapt'Saiiitr statsajfe'nt* 
 
 0<5aaa« SA'tlrTSH* Wi'll, in JJoviiafcisr you had no surplus to 
 Charge oaok. 
 
 Jr» AMBACSu. Ho* 
 
 OoastE. SA'STS^. And 3^ou 4id Chitrgs ba-ost in S£-ptt3aib«r? 
 
 Jr, 
 
 AiJRi 
 
 We did. 
 
 Ooiiaii. SAWYIB. JDo^js tiiat iiiukss & p^^rt oX Ui^it aii"fs?rsnctj? 
 
 Hr. AM8AGB.. It dcis* 
 
 Ooauri. SAWYi?. * I waa trying ta account for the- Vitriation 
 in hurii. Although, y&u sold aora ^lit -— 
 
 Mr. AMBA:.^» '^'a did not; sxcuaa jas*. W« sold aore milk in 
 dollar's and Sisnta, &ut Ixiy voiuias sas a«3ii®idsrai>iy Ittss* Kow- 
 av-tr, thy aslllng prioa vma aors la JJoviJiaD'-'r than in Sapt-aab^sr, 
 ishioii iaaJias th?s dollars '^nd cunts sal-5S larger* 
 
 3oiaai» MOBHIfi* I wani-s^d to xniuxr& a iit;vli; furtJis^ir about 
 this ices q[U€-Dtj.on» Qo you r-aaaaibe'r usiiat you liau to p-iiy as cxty 
 prices ior ic« iic/rw in th;j aonth. oi" Saptsmbar? How auah a 
 hundrssd? . -. , 
 
 Mr. aUSICSC. Tou buy oy r,nej carload, don't you? 
 
 Mr. /vMBACJK. ilo. li you v^ant lus tc ^'J'^t t:i^t figurtJ, I had 
 bettiir call up tiit:' ori'io-^. iiy r <i colli* c ti on as |3.50 a ton 
 f #0.0. th;i car. 
 
 OQom* f^AWYIi!?. In Boston? 
 
 Mr. A^BACK. In Boston, f .o.b. t^ie car. Not i'.o.b. our 
 
<i* VyT „. . 
 
 -i- - .--... 
 
24 
 
 SOS 
 plant, 
 
 aoara. BIRD* i'.O.B. on tha cars? 
 
 idr. AMBACK. Ye», 
 
 Comm. SMTET?, Who stands the shJTinkage-; you or tJ-iQ 
 
 Mr, AMBAC?!. is'roia thts oar k«j stand tha sijrinJca^e. 
 
 Oonaa. SAIT&I?^ Well, you taka tljs oar w#i^ts as daliverad? 
 
 Mr. iUIBAOiU As lo adod. onto our true*:* 
 
 Ooam. SAWY£1?. As loaded onto your truck; so thu,t they 
 otand th& shrinkage? 
 
 Mr» AIlBAOiC. Yea. 
 
 Oofflm. MOB^US. HiJw, Mr. Whiting, I understood you cut 
 your own ica» 
 
 Mr. aHAT?L30 WklTI.-SG. Yjs, air^ 
 
 CojcBKi. HO'B'^IS. Hoft^, ^n tiiie oujcount here, hCi*? havs you 
 treattid that? 
 
 jar. WKITING. The iC'j* v^-as put in anJ. .^iiargad at the cost 
 of |i.70 pGT ton in '^ci-ton d^livarsd at ths plant. 
 
 Co/am. MOBnIS. rhat is -shat it cost you to iiarv-jst a ton 
 
 of iG3? 
 
 Mr. I'HITIKG. And freigiit it. Karvsst ana freight and 
 stors and ship. 
 
 Ocitam. 3«DHniS. Witiiout any profit? 
 
 Mr. WKITIim. Y3S, sir. • 
 
 Mr. GUSIOC. Now, Mr, J. K. Whiting, what ao you say? 
 
 Mr. J. K. milTlKG, I T.ill spoak for the Elm h' J.rm .and tta« 
 Srlghaffi Oompany. 7ii& Sim iarei tarings it© ioe on cars, snipped 
 right in from ths siding « That coste theai about 12.25 a ton 
 f.o.b. oars. That io the way th&y get ail thoir ice. The Brig- 
 ham Oorapany iauys ice doiiv jrad. Uouiiljuy Xt h;iB fee -'n driliv-?red 
 by truok, and I fchinjc tiu? iCt^- has baen I tn:.n."(C it was $o. 
 
JlsSr 
 
 ^ 
 
 « 
 
 ;* -s-j.-v. ^t ;•; 
 
 -.::'r- ■ ' f' 
 
25 
 
 209 
 
 Nowj I tilink I wot-ilci Xiks to verify that if you want it acou- 
 
 ratoly. 
 
 Comas, MOl^T^IS* Mrom whom do you purchasa tnat ice? 
 
 '^r, WHITIKO. Th<3 i'resh Pond Ice aompany. Tnat ie th<s Xq& 
 *& uss to ice our oasas tii-it /jo out on the t^ac®. How, ?i<^ hava 
 a rafrigaration plant also, wa have two refrigoratins s:^ ..chin*i8 
 which are us«d sntiroiy for coolin,'^ t^is milk. Sut se faavs to 
 US€ large q.uantitias of ice, pu-vinff; crushed ice on tha cases 
 that ar9 loaded on the t-^ams. And I thinlc th*- px*actj was f3 
 a ton. That was dslivsrad by tlm j^r^ah Pond Ici? Oo-apany's 
 trucic right on our platform. 
 
 Coiam. MO'RT'IS, Do yoi. purchase any of it from B. Whiting 
 ^ rsons? 
 
 'dr, l&lUTIITa. 3?o, sir. 
 
 0of!B5, aCITBIS. fiat is ail. Mr. H3.11att, hosv do you 
 fersat youi' iC3 acitount iiers? Daas the Hood Oompany harvest its 
 Own ioe? ^ 
 
 i^r. MILLSTT. We harv-aat a good dial of our own icej w2 
 havii t.o buy sonse. I hav^^n't the proportion in aind. I ao not 
 thlni: offhand we buy a Viry l:irg8 proportion of our ica. 
 
 Coi^n. itO'H'RIS, And in m.Jking up this account, how is that 
 iCi? account treated? 
 
 Mr. MILLET?. In our icing charges we took our ic^^ shipptid 
 from the coimtry ^nd charged it up, 
 
 aoEsra, MOI?r!l?l. At the cost of hAiTasting ':3.na frei^^ht 
 addtid? 
 
 Mr. MILLIGTT. 'llio freight should ho addad. I am no t sure 
 whs thy r it sas or not in this casa. Of course tha icv? we bougnt 
 Tft'S ohargsd in for what »-3 paid for it. 
 
 Conn. iiOBRIS. Thsrs is no profit on tho ice that is ship- 
 ped from tha country charged in? 
 
€ 
 
 <l^:-^^.:i}. ^ 
 
 .J,-yv:.:s ' Ji 
 
210 
 
 Mr. liillLLSTT. No* 
 
 Coram. nO'R'RIS. Well, that is the «ay «2 73 1 at some of 
 those discrspanci^is in the accounts. 
 
 Ooara. BI5D. You nay you don't know shdtli^r tha freight 
 18 added in or not? 
 
 5lr. MILLS TT. 77o, I do not, 
 
 CoHKj. BITU). len't the freight a p«rt 01 the coct? 
 
 Mr. OU?IGK. If he h'ts hia working papers hsra hu C£«i tali 
 you. 
 
 Coasi. ]£OT?I?IJ?» Mr. iuawkins would kno«, 
 
 3oiffin. BIBD. Was the freight ada-ad in to ths cost of the 
 ice, ilr. Hawkins? 
 
 Mr. IIAWlClHfS. I can't say that. I could give you soa© 
 light on that, in connection ^vith soais oth^cJr casual obsssrva- 
 tione I hnvii made in this connection. 
 
 Oojaia. BI"RD. Well, b-^forci w^i ^^^t through I souli llks to 
 know froffi you or tr^m :&c. Mills tt- «hetHar tiiv freight v. as adaad 
 in on that ics, and "«hat it «ould hav© amounted to if it «as 
 not add®d in. 
 
 Mr. HAWKINS. The chaac^^s are it sag, Mr. Bird, but I am 
 not prepared to tell you. 
 
 OosQ. aiSD. J would likj to have one of you tell rae that. 
 
 Mr. SSABS. Mr. Mills tt, h3 would like to kno* that. 
 
 Cosaa, BT83, Either you or iir. Hawkins. 
 
 Mr. SBABS* Mr. iiaskins prepared thsse figures. 
 
 Oomm. BIJRD. Mr. Hawkins can giva that inforaiatzon, tiian. 
 
 Ooam^ iiGBV.IS, Mr. Hawkins, you will look that up and see 
 whsther teat fr'^igrit is addad? 
 
 Mr. KAWKJSJS. Yae, sir, I v,ili look it up. 
 
 Gomai. BI!?4>. Mr. Amback, diU you havri any eurplue in Ilo- 
 V2mb«r in liiess figures? '^as thare any surplus over the SX? 
 
211 
 
 iflr« .\MBA3K. t(s had no surpiue in Movambsr, as I stattjd 
 yesterday. We ware so short ws ii<id to cut our iritu©. 
 
 OonjBs, SI'S]). Any surplus in December? 
 
 Hx', AMB.AOIC. We iiad. a, oonsideraDlw surplus ia Doo^afeer, 
 incr^a-asing vsvery day* 
 
 Comra, BITID. Well, in thase figurss whioh you >i;iv«j £ivan 
 to thts OotEfnissioTi. for J^oember, ho«f hav« you tr<3ats-<i that sur- 
 pl^is? 
 
 Jlr. .WBACJK. i'or ^Tov^mbsr? 
 
 Oomra. BX"^. i'or Dsc-^aber, 
 
 Sir. .\HBACK. I his.Y*^ no figuriss for DtjC'^^bsr, 
 
 Mr. 0mi.7£* On that point, Mr, Bird, I iaight say th.at 
 in oiirs for January «e hav-j got yoar trMa surplus, as agreed 
 to by tilts GoBKaittas; at't«r the iaat s«S3sion. Is thare anything 
 furth'j-r now t'n&t you want to say, Br* .tefca-ck? 
 
 Mr. AMBACE. 10. . 
 
 :£r. aUFIOK, Thcit is all. 
 
 STAI^alHW .BY ^* IiAWKIN3« 
 
 Mr. HA'*1CI?JS« I woiild liica to ra.^;?; a 8ta,teiasiit xor the 
 
 r*icord, that up to this isornin^ i had not ae:;n this r-^port. of 
 
 I), Whitings*, 50 that I havij not b*s>ja alsl-a^ to givy it th^s saiiia 
 
 study thxt D. \fhi tings Jaave of the report ©0^53 for Hood, Caauol 
 
 obsarvation of these ^.wo reports, ho»<5V3r, indicata, first, that 
 
 thorn are 200,000 quarts of ailk includsd in thair statement 
 
 not included in ours. That is represented by tht* wholesaia 
 
 pints, i'urther observation injicatao that tha totcil ^xpunsas 
 
 the 
 included in /Whiting stataaiant ia '^17H,00Q — approxiaattjiy 
 
 |.17B,cco, I vi»iijL ieav« off the jiundreda and cunts — And in the 
 
rt k .t 1 f ' 
 
212 
 
 Kood stateiaent. about $163,000, siakinz a diff Irenes in sxpssnae 
 of |15,Q00, Whan I say •expense" I aiaan the actti-al coet of 
 distribution after thd cost of the adlk has been excluded, JTroai 
 the country expenses down. How, a furth^ir analysis of tiiat 
 difference of 115,000 shows, first, ths itam of frei-.ht is in- 
 cluded in th«i Whiting atatdaant at a figure representing 3.6 
 allls, and in the Hood stateai-;?nt 7,2, mAkinc a dirfarenca of 
 
 1,4 mills, ^hich on 2,700,000 quarts m^k&a IS"©©. •j'hat is a 
 
 |15,000. 
 part of the .,. 
 
 Ws go along a littla farther and we find that the shrink- 
 age in the Whiting statement raprosents a tot-al aujount of 
 $13,809 i while tha total s'iirinkage in the Hood statcsaunt only 
 represents 08,500, or a diffsrsnce of |5,260, approximately. 
 I ^ould like to say in connection ^^ith tha shrinkage that you 
 ft ill nots that there is $4,000 chargea'ole to th« country in thia 
 Whiting statas^ntj at tha game tia^, thsi-e is only |600 
 chargeable to Uia co'ontry in the Hood statenjsnt* As stated 
 yesterday aftc^rnoon, that $4,000 charg-^abie to tha country in 
 the whitinc statemtsnt is an ^irbitrary charge based on ons-third 
 of the total shrinkage in city ;«id country. I bolieve the 
 g@ntl'3S3an from th^ office of the accountants for Whiting 
 stated tJiat it ^as isspossibl;? to ^ay -shat tlie shx*inkage was, 
 but in aonfarencs with the 'ffhiting interests tbey said one- 
 third should be charged to ths country. I do not know how 
 th-i^y could j-et such an axwrbitant stirinkags charge tharti, but 
 evidently it is there. TJiat is |5,260 diff'srence on 2,700,000 
 ■juiirts. 
 
 Then another small item v?hich is included in the Uhiting 
 statement is the legal and profesaionril eervic^.s, |l,J?00, while 
 jin the Hood sstateaient it is only IfiOO. That aiikes a total 
 excss^- charge in tJie Miiting gtatement over tho Hood statejaant 
 
) 
 
 0.00?.'- ... 
 
2i3 
 
 Of fraisht, ehrlnJiago and Is^al axponca of $9,600. If w« d«- 
 
 i 
 duct that from tha total C03I. it Ijuvoo ti net difforencvi of 
 
 $6,000, approximately, m tr.» -jxpano© of tha two ooaiyanibC, not 
 
 allowing for the .200,000 luarte incluaod in tho whiting stato- 
 
 mont and not inciudod in the iiood etatament. 
 
 How, that le. a.o far ae a caauol obedjrvation will i>«rmlt m» 
 to suia up thaaa ',wo atatamwnte. That is not done in a critical 
 way; it ia simply to bring O'-it, 1 hopj, tha total difXor&noe in 
 the t«ra Btatdxiic^nta. 
 
 I would XiHv to say comathing in conn^jction with this icd 
 problem. That s-ume to hav:^ caused conaicl-jrablti aiBOi;.s,-ion. 
 I round nowhere in iJie claaaif ioation of expensa of the Whit- 
 ings any charge ff&r ice under .ioliv-=ry exyt^nee. Vvhsn I cay 
 ■d-jllV3ry expenaa* I oiaan the charge for ict* on tr.u rovte vsragon. 
 Ve have a conaiderabl-j charge lor ice under aiiecullanoous «x- 
 pdnse* Und'jr our miaocjlianaoua expense -- July 3x:jense of 
 |4,567 — we have a prstty ,^ood Qis^.-d charge for ice. 
 
 Comm, SAWYET?. Why should not that have been put into lea, 
 tbfin? 
 
 Mr. HAWKIHS. The ra i3 no c -as o if i cat ion to show where it 
 should ba put, 
 
 Oomm. SAWYi;H. St'hy ssfouidn't it D<2 iteiaiaed? 
 
 Mr. HA\7x:iWS. I can give you tJrwJ stattjaent. 
 
 Oomci. BrHD. If you turn back to th« originjJ. book of 
 accounting you wiJl see a notation that atat-^e that anything 
 that is charged ao miacellan-jous shall b. icoompanit;d by an 
 Itemized atatement. 
 
 Sir. HAWUns. I would lik-j to say a word, if I may, in 
 that connt;ction. I 3=3e no itam of miecollaneoua expenso in 
 thia iclnr atateasfent. Perconally I can*t iind«rstana hof* a 
 company of that size, or three compani.a of that aire, co.ld 
 
214 
 pos:3ibly hiv$ sxpenaas that would not be included undsr mia- 
 oellnxi^oxm* Anybody with any accounting sense at all would 
 — w«^. kno¥^ that this dasatf icat ion ia entirely inadaiuata, and to 
 not have a classification of misc villaneous wxp^nsas is b-yond 
 lay comprehonsion. I havs had certain experience in that mat- 
 ter. Now, W3 can give you a statement of th*^ ffiieojlianaotis 
 charges Included h^re. Thy.t is, ws can <jive you a. etAtement 
 of the total mlscailanijous charges, ond thon this is a propor- 
 tion bioad on the proportion of rjuarts of xailk shown in t>iat 
 Stattjisent to the total -^uarta of zailk hanilsd in th-3 plant 
 within f-hc* city, 
 
 Comm, Bli^D. How anich of that .miscalianaous expense you 
 h-xva QOt thars is accounted for by ico? 
 
 Mr, JLAWI^Il^S. I gave it to you last night; I juat forg^^t, 
 I don't know -dhother it «as $1,100 or |1,900. 
 
 Oomm. BOJ). Well, that is a knovm item of ice, and why 
 oan't it i>3 oh'irged in whera it ii^lon^s? 
 
 Mr, KAI&KIH!^, Sacauss tha ic^ on ^Jxj routes is not tlys 
 city sxpenss, it is a dslivsry exp^nss. 
 
 OoHiXn* BIHD. Why not nut it in as a. d^illvo-■ry i-xpense? 
 
 Mr, EAsiKIH*?* It is. It is im-ier miscellaneous in 2iy 
 statement,- ll^^^OO for ica on the routes* i'or ice used on 
 t>:ie routes — that ie, in tha Hood Company. 
 (OhairKian Allen arrives.) 
 
 Oomra, 311?!), |l,900, you eay? 
 
 Hr. flAWJClHG* '^es, sir* ^h^-n I say il,90C, tr^ut is tiis 
 total charge for ice lander total niscellaneeus tjxptinsfcs, a 
 proportion of which would only b- includt;d in these. We had 
 to apportion these betv^oen the Kdlk included in thic Btateaunt 
 and the total jnilk handled in ths plc-jits or on tht. routes, 
 
 Doijua. BPRS. 'Cill you givo us an itc*miseu statement of 
 
i . -.i:. : IV >.. 
 
 nii 
 
 « •- V .. B- ■ 
 
 { *eA;'Vi'';i/ 
 
 ■3 ••• 
 
 :> '■■ ■^^ ' 
 
 m 
 
 i 
 
215 
 the mi8celian®ou3 expetiiss ujidvr country <jxi:vansso, city sx- 
 pdnses^ and d<iliv-3ry expensss? 
 
 Mr. HAmiH5. . f<3 jan do that. lat me a8l£ you this for ajy 
 information; do you %unt the proportion of aach of those mis- 
 celianeons expenses that aro aiida up in^o that total; do you 
 want tha total and then shov; you the proportion as wa made it? 
 
 Ooasm* BXrti). Yes. I v/ajit tiie to tcJ. and than Ui« oro portions 
 
 Mr, HiiS?K.Iii3. /Ol rigrkt; v..-e v*ril.l £.lvi. you that* 
 
 Oomu* EI"RX>, I want lo know feliat Goui^rlSi&s this sua.- 
 
 Hr, KAWICIMS. Of i4,367,«4? 
 
 Co^n. BITID. V'Sry nts^iriy |7,000 of aussolianeous djtp'snsea. 
 
 Mr, HAjVIvIlf;^. Wh^t is that? 
 
 Cftffirti. BI*HD. I '=vant to i:no?i what coaprlsJS this virtually 
 ^j,500 or |7,C00 of misudXisriaous expane^. 
 
 Ut* H.AWKX>5r;v ^^11, -*5} ?fiil ^ivi yo-u tho^o, ^r. Bird, I 
 woul'i liic>5 to aak tiie tjusstion also, if t.\a'?r^i are any items 
 of fflisoeXl-'m-:sous ^^xp^-nsa inoludsd — 7.'her«= ar-j ta^y included? 
 'l woiila lik^:.' to know. Ther3 ia a lot of y^uff in th-^.T^. I 
 can* c Q&a how tji*: olassifioation aa pr-iscribed cc-..ad b3 coa- 
 i>loie enouijii to tak9 care of ail thi exp^rtso of a mLXk coui- 
 pany oiT th'it sisij, 
 
 Mr» 0USI;3E. W9 can* L hiilp ^hat, J^, H-Jii/lrins* 
 
 Mr* EAWi:Bf3. Whatf 
 
 iir« OUSICSi. 'iv^Q can't hslp yo^;r inability ?;o unlijrstand. 
 
 ^r. HAV#;I>J5. As etatssd bafors, I have no* coon this 
 sta.<:ama»nt until this aorniiig. That xf oil I can oav. 
 
 
 Thtir^i viae onu honaacl to yo^j. ys^jtorday. It 
 
 »?as iiandiia to Mi*. Sears* 
 
 iir. liAViKTKS. Wail, i tall yov. I aa- it this morning. 
 
 aoi3ia. BII?D. Mr, Hi-v.-iianD, if thsr^ ia no obj iction by the 
 Oha-lrman, «b want th,? infon-aatlon in r-jfurbTna^ to thosa r?iattv$rs 
 
J 
 
20.6 
 
 of misG^ilAneous *- Uih lack of nlacallandoue it*=ais in the 
 
 Whiting state^iidnt. Why don't you 
 
 hlr, HAWKITfS. I would lik'3 to g^t trie inforsiation. I am 
 not suffioisntly Jtamiii-ir v»ith this Whiting statement 
 
 Coaa* BIKD. WoJJ., wa ara very mush intar<JSted in trying 
 to find out ^hare the diffQrsnces coaa. 
 
 Mr, KAWKIN?. WbXX, you zni.^ht asic th» luestion. 
 
 Mr. OUSiaE. Mr» P&ri;.ins, t-iii the Ooramission anything you 
 can about tha aatter. 
 
 Mr. PSBfclHS. I will be si-id to tell any thing I can. It 
 is the old eae$, v-r-ry acadaEiic, it strikes icq. Wiian p^itopie 
 arc sarslsss or lo not know 'i:'n^re a thing balon,?G tiiey put it 
 in raiscelianeoiiS* ThQ instructions »ar» when wa started in 
 here- t.c avoid BJiecell.incous accounts as jsv.ch as possible. They 
 a.re a dviapine ground* Put thesi xvhwre tney belong. Our object 
 was to avoid ffiiscsiian-30us accounts* 
 
 OoaBS* BIHI). i)o you faoi that this accounting as outlined 
 by th3 ::JomiJiission i3 sufricisntiy cojajrehenslva to coVi-r evtry 
 account without any laiscellaniious account? 
 
 Mr. PEHLINS. I beiiava eo. I would not say it could not 
 b3 iinprovt?d, of courBS* 
 
 CoEBS. BIED. Then in allocating Qomv of thess things you 
 naturally havij baen forced to uct^ an arbitrary allocation? 
 
 Mr, P>irFS'riNS» In a good aany cases. 
 
 C/Omm, BIHD. Your jucigiaent as to wa^ra t^iey went, 
 
 Ur» P]S"REIHS. In a. good ushy oanes tnat ir so. 
 
 Oornm* BlrlD. Not based antiryly on tn^f fact, but as to 
 your Judgsant where it ghould go. 
 
 Mr. PEBKIHS. i^omu cne*s judgmint, y^s. 
 
 woam. MOt?"^IS. You coula not maki th'i classification 
 strictly according to our outiin-i, but you had to usa your 
 
i 
 
 "..•* 
 
2Jl7 
 
 judgiaant as to undir what item it ebould hs placed? 
 
 Mr. PSHKIHS. Oh, no; I ?/ould not like to answer tiiat 
 way, no. We put evej*y thing in accordance with the outline from 
 the vjry hi^t information ftd could get. 
 
 CoiffiB. '^QW^IS* There sight t>a so»»3 diff^ryncis of Ofjinion 
 as to flfhere a certain i^sm csi^ht go? 
 
 2Jr, PJiRf:iNS. That would bs probably true. 
 Oomra. BI"^!). I can*t see ho« it would ba possiblo to have 
 no s)i3cellaneou8 accounts at all. if a person arbitrarily 
 allocates zoms of these things to an account — p-^r son ally I 
 have not b-;i^n able to get along without a miscsllansous accoujit. 
 I try ^o itsHp it as low ae I possibly can. I think you aro 
 psrf^ctly right when you pay it is a di.vmpi.nQ r^ro-umx* But the 
 only way I can sss hoiw the siacellansous account could bo don© 
 av»ay vith antirely is 07 an entirely arbitrary illosation. 
 Now, you have allocated those; as I undi^r stand ths Hood O021- 
 pany, there are certain things they have not rs^le any effort 
 to illoca^e. They hive oiaply put th@«i into miscellaneous. 
 Is that it, Mr. Hawkins? 
 
 Mr. KAWKIFS. I do not think it its fair to gay wy did not 
 
 maka an effort. Thay did maJce an effort, t shouict say taking 
 
 that clatssif ication of accoion's and trying to aiaks up 2. state- 
 
 ffiont on that basis from th-s books or ^driQ il. P. Hood Oonii^any 
 
 v^ry 
 *m8 a^trying proposition. 
 
 ;dr. PiSrfMNS. Ws will admit that, 
 
 Hr. KAWillTS. And particularly wien thjr;? ivas no att-jrmpt 
 to analyaa th':* accounts for the p\a*pos^s of thic classifica- 
 tion. You might ask yourselves how it would be pocnible on 
 th3 3Cth day of Au^rust to take a brnnd new classification of 
 s,ocount8 and apply It to 3'our busin-i-se on the first of Sop Kam- 
 bar. 
 
:■.>'; sii- ,. V, ■* -^n ii-''.f t 
 
 Ht: . ■■: 
 
 
zm 
 
 OoEun, 3l'9J2* I think the C-om-^isslon 30.1 realiaa it is a 
 Vi-^ry aifficiiit 'iiiing: to do. 
 
 Mi% HAWKXNS. But vyt! did exercise a lot of. thought and 
 judgntnt on the jsatt«r, and when I inoluddd this lt<irz of ice 
 tmd i=r niRcellanaouy 3.-: counts, you ■will see — that is, in the 
 delivery -expense -- if ycai could toil .'se any place w:-srs it 
 wf>uld go iind<3r daliv-jry oxi:>«nss I woiJld like ^-o know, fhat is, 
 th-s ice ui'id f>n the routas, ice- chargeable to the routes. I 
 do not a6«3 any account th-srs to which I could charge up ice, 
 
 Of>«CB. SAWYSB. Whera would you put that, >Ir« Parkins? 
 
 ar. PST^IWS. In plant ics* Most of that ics th:> .goes 
 on th*? rout'as is th* ice vee6 to jjack th3 ca33S» Now, it is 
 the old pro'olem of whether tha cont-iinar is sailing expanse 
 or manufacturing expense. If you pacK something in your 
 I factory in -x box it is lisuaily ocnBlderiid a manufacturing 
 axpensaj if yoii padk it^in your- shipping rooE in a box to ship 
 it out it is selling expense. Is the icin^; ajcp^ns* of contain- 
 45 rs on the- i^agona a man ul" as taring axx>«ase or a delivery sx- 
 jnmoe^ We lookad at it ib a manuT set tiring ^Jtouns-s, bicsuse 
 that is th?* only place thAt the accounting appeared to provide 
 fr.r it, ciKd ^6 iacludisd it in plant a5tp!?nea8, 
 
 CoffiB. SAWYSH. You msan, in city exp'^snsas? 
 
 Mr. FITRKIHS. Yes. 
 
 Oosi-n. SAWYSTR. Included in refrigerating «xpsns8, putting 
 it in deliviiry expense? 
 
 lir<, F3BKIKS. v^s. 
 
 Oosira, MOB^aS. 1 things that fairly v/«ll explains the dif- 
 ference in thcs ice 5£ccoimts. I wish vte could gi't at sois^ of the 
 other accovmts aa wsll as we hava th« ica account. 
 
 Mr. OUSI(^. I think, Hr. Chairman, you can if yov. have 
 a stateffient macie by Mi-. Hawkins of the -in tries ana hi3 alloca- 
 

 ?• ■ ' •: ■■ ■•. "• 
 
2X9 
 
 tion of thos® sntiree that I ask^d you* IT tbose stiitsmsnts 
 are aliocared and tha tjntriea taken frtym. ths books, and how he 
 got £,t it, in siy opinion it '*ili ahoss you at ones shethwr thare 
 has bsen ixny ^i stake made or not. And tixat tJaen will bring 
 thea vary cios^ together. I io not put au^iy stooit. in this stuff 
 about legal ^nd prof osg ion ;\1 expenses that h» put in there* 
 That is a hit. 
 
 CoiE^i* M£n?BIS« liJ'li, I suppose it »as pot into the cost». 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. I would like to ask Kr. Hiiwkins hO'^' he siadd 
 up that itsa of legal and professional expanse? 
 
 Mr. KAWKIKS* Ws got the best judgment of the h* P. Hood 
 Oompony of the total annual ^<2xpen8@ for Isigal ind prof-assional 
 oervic^s, which is about |i2,000 a year, :jnd ^» included $1,000 
 as oiiT legal ©xpunss, $627 of ^hich is the proportion to al- 
 locate to thia Eli Ik. 
 
 Mr* OUSIOK.^ That is, you allocated yovr legal expenses 
 to buttermilk, crvam, and tha rest of the business, did you? 
 
 Mr. EAWKIKS. Absolut«ily, 
 
 Mr. GUSICK* Weil, that ie not dons here. What is their 
 other profescionai expanse? What is thsrs to coT<ir your caoaa 
 in court, your costs, dXid so forth? 'iih.y didn't you talcs those 
 in? We had to, , . 
 
 Kr, KAWIINS. i will tell you how we did it, 
 
 Mr. OUaiOK. That ie right thera. Where did you put your 
 legal !sxp«ns<»s; whars did you put your cost of v/rits, yoi^r 
 legal sxpensse in court, oxdcutianp, .aid eo forth? 
 
 Sir. KAWKIHS. I f/ill cfiak© the statement again that ^.e 
 took |12,000 as the averaga total legal and profyesional Ssir- 
 vices of the ii, ?• Hood ::!;ompany and allocated ono-twolf th of 
 that 112,000 legal and professional 3orvic«iS for the entire 
 businiiss, f627 of which ie the part allocated to this milk 
 
(,„ ^:r- 
 
 € 
 
220 
 included in this statsmsnt. Tteat include© all professional and 
 legiil expenses, 
 
 CoEBfj, M01??IS» liiat statemant is plQin to th'S aosHRission, 
 
 Mr» aUSICHK. But this it^a is Isgstl and profsssional ex- 
 panse. It includies somathing else beaides services. We havg 
 got a numb-^r of dollars of accountants in tter©. 
 
 Cojsm. M0"5I?IS. Do you object becauscJ it ie so small? 
 
 Mr. OUSXC^. Yes; I think it ought to ba larger; I t-iink 
 it is larger. 
 
 Ooanri. BIBS. Mr. Hawkins, that covers tha sntirw legal 
 expense of tha Hood Company, including all court costs and 
 everything that goes into that, besides actual rem-jnaration 
 for attorniys, and so forth — all expanses? 
 
 Mr. SAiKIWS* That is the baat inforjsation a3 got covering 
 this. 
 
 Oornm. BIBD. I did not luits understand, Mr. Hawkins, 
 when you spoks of t^e amount of shrinkaga of tlie whiting Oors- 
 pany. You spok"^ of an arbitrary allocation to tha country 
 expense and to fh& city sxpi^nss? 
 
 Mr. HAWKISS. Yes, sir. 
 
 Oomm. BITtD. I was trying to look it up as you spoka and 
 I only made partial notos hers. But you say that th<s JBciterial 
 difference bstw^an ths Hood Company's shrinkage in Ui-j coLUitry 
 ana the iJ-hiting Oomj)any's mrikee a difference in tii« country, 
 as I understand you, of |5,260. 
 
 Mr. KAWKIHS. Biffrjrence of tot^a shrinkage. 
 
 Oorara. Bll^i). That is what I *ant(3d to get at. In other 
 words, tiiw ishitings* total shrinkage was ;:0,2GO sr-^attir than 
 tha Hood Company's total shrinkage? 
 
 Mr. HAIKIMS. That ia accord ini? to Miese statements. 
 
 Ur* CUSICK. Mr. Amback, «.hat do you eay about shrinkage? 
 
^ 
 
221 
 
 Mr, AMBAC2K. I notice the shrinkage on the II* P. Uood * 
 Sons ehaats shows a total of approxtma t*3ly 2.^ on country 
 and city addad togethar. Judging from the axperi^nca In our 
 business — ths only thing on which I can speak — our shrink- 
 age averages considerably higher than that. I would liice to ask 
 Mr. Millett *hat he thinks the shrinkage of the Ji. P. Hood & 
 Sons Oompany is. Poughly. Do you think it is mors or liss 
 
 than 2.7X ? 
 
 Mr. MILLSTT. I do not think it is any mora than that. 
 
 Mr. AMBAOl. Ours has aLsays run more than that. 
 
 Mr. OUSICK. it might b-s int-srusting to you -xnd I will give 
 you figures of actual shrinkage for 1916, 1917 and 1918. ifor 
 1916, on 1,471,653 cans the shrinkage v»a3 4.60^; in 1917, on 
 1,273,580 cans the? shrinkage sas 4.10X; ^nd in 1918, t<m 
 sonths, on 1,054,999 cans, tha siu-inkiga was 3.99X» A further 
 analysis of this shrinkage dxirins those three years indicates 
 that of that shrinkage S.36X ''^as eithssr short •»3ii^ht or un- 
 filltid cans. Mow, I niijht say that rauoh of this lailk was L.O.L. 
 milk, Ws have Xisen investigatin.s this thing vary c iref ully. 
 
 OosEi. HO^"r?IS. Th083 figursB ars, by tha -7 ay, from Whit- 
 ings* bonks? 
 
 Mr. aUSIca^, ISO I this is froEj tha lila ^'arm Milk Oompany. 
 I had th©sa srorking on that for some tiase, 'in:i that is actual. 
 
 Gosras. MOHBin. Well, h::isn*t tiiis shrinkiig^ due to iinfiJ-lad 
 cans ta^m eliminated no»? 
 
 Mr. CUSICK. W(9 are doin^ soma good on it. You 3««, th« 
 last ten months was 3.99 p^^r cent, brinsinf, it down. Sut you 
 will gat shrinkJigti botii in weight ani cans yat. 
 
 Comm. MOH'iUS. Well, thd first years there you bought oy 
 t,he can, didn't you? 
 
 Mr. OUSIOK. Oh, no{ thex'O has not \>e<in much differanca 
 
V r- ■ 
 
222 
 between 1916 and i*Jl7. The rsason, on your L.O.L* was because 
 aome of the Eijest j-^irm silk was bought from 0. Srighaas "^oapany. 
 Ali the aillk we have traded in is practically L.C.L^ shiprs^nts. 
 
 Oomm, MO"R!?If?« Wall, hasn't there baon a chance laade with- 
 in two or t.hre« yc»ara as to the n^thoiis or buying? ijoraurly a 
 ean was a can, wh^jther it sas filled olaar to th© top or not. 
 Ko?j it is done by weight. That would practically eliminate 
 shortage on account of xinfillad cons. 
 
 Mr, COSICK. Ho J t.hare is the handling. 
 
 OoBm» MO"R"RIS. I'sjll, tns a^Lndlxns^ »vouid be dus to tiie 
 waste in handling ind not to thti unfilled cans at th« f^xna. 
 
 Mr, OUBIQY.0 That is all true; but do not call that waste. 
 
 CoflEn. wyR'915* I :ia not spsa^ing ox saots except as neces- 
 sary -sriSte, 
 
 Mr. '^USICK* It was going on tha record. The point is 
 that when wxs take tiiie mXlk and put it t/irough our paste\iriz«j;rs 
 some of th it water gois off. How, we are majsing quita a con- 
 siderable study of that to find out how ttiat can be r.ciaimad. 
 But you are getting into a vary nice proposition whi^n you are 
 doing that. Ws 'nave not reached it yet, but y.'s are going into 
 it. And another thing, Mr. Morris, that is vary important is 
 th« purchase of bottles. Wa have been troubled a .^ood daal 
 since the stir on that. Tiitfra is a tolerance alio«iJci,- must 
 necessarily be,- in the manuf :AOttjr« of glass bottles. Ther& is 
 a tolarance allowed in filling tnose bottl=»s which, ftiien mul- 
 tiplied by the million as thay ard filled, makers a whole lot 
 of differjnccf in voliime. If you ha.pp'sn to get a car load of 
 bottles wher«3 the toleranco runs to tha maximum, an.i using 
 th'^g'3 bottles you get Just a trifle ovwr your IG ounces to 
 the luart bottle — if you ware to uso it by weight — now, 
 that is an infinitesimal diffar^^ncd, but if nnat is multiplied 
 
223 
 
 80 ofton, in the long run it miikd© ths voium^ij that you Cciil 
 Shrink ige. And I think that is one of th-3 most important 
 places to look now for shrinkage. 
 
 Mr. iiasrkins, what is your perosntagw of coiattry shrinkage? 
 
 Mr* HAWKIWS. Ch, it ia aoout a niaird of one p-ar cent, I 
 think; anci Ui^ city shrinkage ig about three p^r cent, I think. 
 (Intormiosion. ) 
 
 Ooaaa. MOPHIS. There are a Tew tiungs, .gentlaaen, that 
 aro troubling tile Ooaimission in the short sxecutivs session 
 that s!.a havs had th«f last fa»v lainwtaa. On# t.hing that is 
 troubling the OoBsaisaion is tha lueetidn of raising tne x>ric© 
 of milk to the pubiie at tJ'iis titats beyond the present pra.C'sa, 
 and its gifn«ral effect upon ths buslnaas,- whether or not xt is 
 not batter both for the producars ani for th>;3 distributors to 
 taka go«j3 loss, if they h'^y% to, during tnesQ three saonths, 
 with a recoupfiiant later on, than to try to increase the price 
 of lailk ■ o t>i8 public at tliis tiaa^j and sui'far the i5on8s;i\iant 
 effects upon th:^ gansrai busin-ssa. Tlow, i think that luastion 
 is a real probiea -- ah i-^ast thtj Ooaamiasion essas ~o think so. 
 'or oourse your figur-is, both Mr. Patt^a's and thv dealsrs* , , 
 would inciicate tiiat the OofiKoisaion had goz to incrdose the prica 
 of milk for the naxt three months ht^re, if wa take zhe fij^ures 
 'absolutely as fimy have os-an presyntad to the Gonsmission. In 
 going over our f igur&s last January fe3 has a spr-v-ad of C cents — 
 the dsaiere did — on fcimily milk. Thera is now a spr-5iid of 
 6-3/%. That maknQ an incr^^jase of about ISX ^^ tho cost of 
 distribution. Whathar or not the cost of dietribution h;is 
 increacsd more than I2X during the yo-ar is soeiuthing for us to 
 think of. In addition to that, a ya^xs' ago you were carrying 
 tha surplus — to bc3 sure, the figuros showed a loss, 3o that 
 this yo.ir if ths svorplus plan is in operation during thy thrtsa 
 
^eiii&c 
 
224 
 
 months you would b« r«^liav©d of the surpiue, in addition to 
 gst-ing about 1.2 ■C increase in th= spraad: So that your in- 
 crease wouiat be conaid«rabiy more trian 12X» probably, on the 
 entire 8pr«ad. 
 
 Theso aatttJro I sp^afc of at this timt; as baing sorai of the 
 problaas that are troubling the Commission. And in ref^srenoa 
 to Mr. Pattee's plan of modification of the anrplus plan, one 
 qu«aation <-hat. troubles ub is whether or not, with the lifci of 
 the Commission liaitod as it is, it is bast to try to maec« 
 changes at this ti2» tiaat to our mind preeant problems of vast 
 difficulty in ivoricing out,- probl^jne that dvill take some time 
 for the OosEaission to i«ork o^jt. '^liether or not the dealers and 
 ti^a producers aight not ^.-ork that probl-^m out among tjieaselvt^e 
 rather than to lo>ave it to tlis Coaamission to try to deal with 
 in thj very short time that %e have left in whioh to d-^al with 
 it. I think the CoiffisiaRion feels as a whole, without stating 
 any ruling whatvsver, or expressing any opinions except p--rhaps 
 individual opinions, that there is a real problem in what Mr* 
 Pattee has prossnted to the Commission; that if it could b« 
 worked out it would %ork to the b^nafit of ev<^rybody. But 
 whether the Commission wxll undertake to solve that problem 
 rssiains to be seijn when we gat into executive session. I wish 
 it might be work«d out among your salves. 
 
 There is ajioth;Jr thing thai has bdc;n discussed among the 
 ssrabers of the Commiaeion, and that is tha question of future 
 recommendations, orij of which is that there might possibly be 
 uniform l-^^islation in the NijwEngland states which might per- 
 petuate iacoramission for tjiie handlin^- of these xnilk probljina. 
 Of cours- the lawyers here will appreciate the fact tnat there 
 is a i'ederal law known as th«i anti-trust law, ana that l<i£LB~ 
 lation would have to b^ framed in reference to that law, and 
 
c^> ■..;;,. "'■' :•■■ 
 
 'ejjiJeq 
 
225 
 
 probably any commission that, could be or^^at'^d hf state iaasrs 
 would only be sort of a board of arbitration, it. could not be 
 a price fixing board. That is, I am inclinad to think it 
 could not be a price fixing board as '^e have been a prica fix- 
 ing board during war tiae,- unier war tiine juaasures. But it 
 might possibly ba a board of arbitration, and by uniforai legis- 
 lation in the N3W £ngl.and f?tat'aa it might bs tolpful to Uio 
 milk buninc-ss of W-r* Sncland. And if any of you have any id^jac 
 on th9.t luee^.ion, we would liks to bear them. Of course that 
 board, in case of matters being sent to it for arbitration, 
 might be able to fix what in thsir judgment «(as a fair pric^ 
 for n)ilk, and in that way it ajight to some sxtont be a price 
 fixing bo:;trd; but not a regularly conetitAitsd bo;ird for fixing 
 pricss. 
 
 What I h^ve said hara is not said with the idea of indicat- 
 ing what our final decision will be in any matters, because »e 
 have not gone into executive session ; but I am just stating 
 this publicly so that before you i^iave tim room you will know 
 some of the luastions that hav« bean uppermost in our ainds. 
 ifhat final result is reached will be announced later. 
 
 ^r. CUflCK. May I call your attention to this fact, 
 now that you have got your figures right before you? You go 
 back to oua- Exhibit 56, I thjLnk it was — you havs got it ail 
 there. You h^vy got your volume, you hav>' got your costs, and 
 for ths month ofJanuary ■i^ou h:iV3 your actual costs* 
 
 Oofflm* aOS'RIS. 56 ^as your cost shaets? 
 
 Mr* CUSIGK. January, is'ebruary and March of 191B, 
 
 Oonmi. MO'R'^IS. We have them. 
 
 Mr. OUSIOK. And then with th.it you h.iv^ t>io actual fig- 
 ures of v.hat it cost to do thf* business in January on tha unit 
 basis which was given you for comparativd purposes. I h^vs 
 
■o dtaor. e:\i- -lo' 
 
226 
 
 got soma old papors here, but I txj.ink they will correspond with 
 what you have got — I do not h::ipp8n to have mina with laa; they 
 are at the office. Tub singular thins is that ths country 
 estpensas and tho xinit «xp0n9«?8 — this ic the country — th-^ 
 assaabling costs, the total city expanse, the total dv-livary 
 expense, without adjninistrar.ivs axpenss, which you put in your 
 new classirioation — it will app^^ar that tJae cost for pro- 
 c<^S8ing :xnd distribution of a ^taart of milk then was estimated 
 to ba 5.11 cante. You sers sp^aiking about 12X« It is now 
 8«62 in ours, in ths Whiting sheots; in the Aldan sheets it 
 is •0B53; in the Hood shafts .0716. jj'urtheraiors, your storas 
 was 2.C66 in January of this y3ar — last January; and your 
 hotels — that corresponds now ^ith the sins — ^as 2.22. ?Jow 
 they are in the Whiting sheets 5.G1 and 4.53. In the Alaan 
 sheists, 6.16 -- that is as he hxxs got it hsra, but it undoubted- 
 ly moans .0616, and .0462. In th^ Hood shafts, your present 
 clissif ication, .049977 and .045783. Uov., uou san rnoka your 
 calculations, and cny Judgmsnt is, vvithout "oing into that, 
 that you will get from 75 to 100;!' higher on the actual costs. 
 That is my judgm-o-nt. But I cm giving you tJis figures so that 
 you will 't-jxv^ ti-tem on th^ rucord. 
 
 Coffim. E01?l?IS. Kavfj you anything to say about the .2;enerai 
 effect upon the buainessi, both as to tha production md. distri- 
 bution of r'tieinf-: ti-ie prices at tha present time? 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. Would you give us two or tiir&e minutes to 
 consult with our clients on that subjc;Ct? I think then ive 
 might say soi^cf thing to you thut ¥.oulci perhaps be of some in- 
 terest. 
 
 Oomm. iiOBPIS. Yes. 
 
 Ml'. OUBICK* I do not like to take a stand on a, policy 
 ^u&e'^^ion v<ithout consulting with them. 
 
- "fl ■. ■ . 
 
t:,f. 
 
 S7 
 
 aojarn. HOT?T?IS. I fJ-iinl-s it is a real policy lueetlon. 
 Xr. QUi-IGK. It ie a policy luestion. But, rvmsaber, -^e 
 have had a hard year. Tl^at. is for thaa to consider, 
 (Short intarsiisGion. ) 
 }ur. SEA3?S. I think our people have :i very decidad opinion 
 about it. 
 
 C!h=ilrman ALLSS» L^t us haar it nf:i^, 
 
 i£r« MILLSTT. Your luijstion, '^* Ohairman, ricie on tha effi^c 
 on susinsss of a raiss in pi'iOQ juf^t now? 
 Chairman AILETT. Tee. 
 
 Mr. MIIXSTT. ^'or mxt m<m*-.h, for Instance. Wo hav$ not 
 any question at ail but what tha<; would be a vsry dangerous 
 thing. 1(3 do not baliev® it should bs done*. We do not bcli.ive, 
 naturally, that ^3 shoxild be sxpaotad to ^ork for nothing. Ws 
 would rt^^gret v«ry much to s^t- the prico advanoi^d at txiis tinid. 
 I do not thlnlc ^a can say any mora if wrj talk an hour. 
 
 Gosiffi. jtOBUIS. Iio* do you fael about it, air. Patt';JQ and 
 Mr. Clark? 
 
 ^r. PATTEE. I think, ;^r. Chairman, that --n^ fael that 
 thorns i^ a most decidod luestion or policy invoiV;;;d that will 
 hava d trsiaendoua affuot on the in-i'ostry. If a prica is iande 
 which coateaiplatss a r^ooupmsn* Liter, tiio public should c.r- 
 tainly be givan piiiinly to undo'rstand that triyy are getting 
 their product at l-ass than cost, :a-icl that a later racouprntnt 
 is Justified. I doubt ths advisability of procaeding on a 
 plan that conteaiplatas an aw^ird that shctii h: r-coupcd lator, 
 espocially wiian ^ha CJosamiccion will /^o out of existw-ncrf and 
 have no chance latar officially to declare ro th-:; public tiiat I 
 
 a recoupmmt of a certain amount is justified — what rccoupm-nt 
 in justified. How, psr son ally, from what: casual. ai<iiting with 
 paopla I hive enjoyed, I have found Uiat tte public e-Tproeses 
 
m 
 
223^ 
 
 its Opinion svary^hers that triay are willing to pay if th<jy 
 can okj satiofiad that they are not askf;»d to pay anyt^iing thxat 
 is vini'-iir and unreasonable. It is not the cost of the article 
 
 in itself that they object to so much as tm faimsss and 
 
 i 
 
 I reasonableness of th& cost. YIgw, I uo not s&& hO'-v, if tliis 
 
 CosBBieslon awiircis a pricj witfaout expl-:mation and provision for 
 I a later adjuatm^nt, it con have* anytaiag else than a disaetroue 
 affect on th^ iniustry. In the first places, you should stats, 
 if you do that, that it is a loss '^iiich we ar^ entitled lattsr 
 I to laako up, and sliould stat-3 d-jfiniteiy aoas plan,- 3iva us 
 
 somd »ay, if you enforce on ua a loss now, in rf'nioh we may maJce 
 ' tj-iat loss good at a latisr date. I do not s£;e how, as a smtt&r 
 of policy, you can say that, discontinuing April 1, you are go- 
 ing to inflict a lose on us no*, sad "go to it 'jnd get coaa- 
 thin^ to r-jcoup yoursolv^s ^ater if you can.* 
 
 Coiaai. 'dO'S.'RlS* Wsii, that ^im tiis a-jthoa of handling the 
 business before any coamission ®as in oxistance, wasn't it, Mr. 
 Pattss? 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. Of taking a logs in the winter and a gain 
 in the sua^er? 
 
 Ooflsa, MCHSI3. Yes. 
 
 Hr» PATTSiS. So far aa ths d^^alirs ?y»re cons.-;rnc^d, yas. 
 What I coll your -itt«intion to is the fact that it vsos in 
 sxistdnoa do«s not justify — - 
 
 Somra* 'J.G'BV.IB * Don* t you think that sae really the effact 
 on the f araors, too? That thd farmers aiTiJi up in fch-j sucisi'jr, 
 if thay uVfsr made up, the lossos that probably tiiey suff jryd 
 during the winter r^ionths on the production of xciUc? 
 
 iLr, ?ATTS£. Ths f -iCt that they have not turntJd very 
 largely tovvard the production of winter milk, when the public 
 needs it, nwuds it most, would indicate, not that they mada up. 
 
229 
 
 mad© a profit in tha sumr^r, but that they 2a*i3 less loss. 
 ¥ow, if you are going to anooura^e winter dairying -- and that 
 is what you have got to work toward in Sew Sngiand — «hy 
 should you put a prill© in th<2 wixiterticit.', in tlia latter port 
 of the winter, at a kno«n» fixed loss, and proaiisu^j th^a, or 
 suggest to tj-isia, or adviaa thsm, that tJiey ask enough in the 
 euffijcartiaiis to laake not only a ^jrofit then but to isaka a profit 
 that ftili r^icoup th-a loss in tha vsintartiaie , It s-jwas to /r^ 
 thit following that systtsja you ^re lixely to get into a policy 
 that will injure tlaa industry and not sax-va tiie public. Mow, 
 that is just an offh^md - — 
 
 CJoaaa, iiOBSXS. Of course you would prob^ibly iacrftasw th« 
 \ surplus. On tJiis lut^ation of surplus that you priisentod 
 yvist'srday, Uis advice to th^ d^Jiil-^rs that they suouid use a 
 groat d^aai of c-aro in taking on iaore dairies during tha naxt 
 three months, sight that not get rid of that -iUjstiQn? 
 
 ^r. PATES. Merely as a mat ^..^r of advice. 
 
 Coam. i&.OHBIS# If i"^. "^as carried out tiy tha dy&lers. la 
 would hiVs! th€' records of the naxt three aonths on s^hat thoy 
 did take on. - : 
 
 ':Ar» PATTES. Yes. 
 
 OOjsm. MQTsdXS, iiavon't you oonfidunca enougti in th^ deal- 
 ers so that advice of that sort to ths di^ial&Ts would eliainate 
 a study of that problem at this time? 
 
 Mr, PAITS^i. I don*t kno« as I gat just wha.t you ai^^an. 
 Take on niw da-irias? 
 
 CoBsn. M0R3IS. Yr?8, smd thus inoroaslng th^^ir surplus dur- 
 ing the next thre« months. 
 
 ^r. PATT:SS. I think that tha d^aitsr will "oo gov^mad by 
 his judgm<3nt of what is goin.~ to give him this most iaondy. How, 
 I do not bu;li«va that anything -alsa viill govern his conduct 
 
230 
 
 in tha taking on of naw b^asiness. Now, it is perhaps baside 
 the aark entirely, but you can't have failed to notiiie the 
 tremendous increase in value the •.« has been in racant months 
 in ths by-producte of milk, more particularly butter. I suppose 
 it is beyond ths jurisdiction, perhaps, of thia Ooanaission to 
 inquire *hat final disposition was aiads of tha by-products 
 into which t>3 ioaJ.ers ciada this surpixis. But it is fair to 
 assume, I belie va, that at least sose of those by-products 
 ^ere carriad along until a considerable profit ^as mada in that 
 nilk. IJow, thers is an inducemsnt that has not sntared into 
 these discxissions — perhaps properly, perhaps otherwise — 
 to take on surplus «/.ian surplus can be tak^n on to the- advantage 
 of the* dealer, xnd for no other cause than that Ipa knows it is 
 to his -Id V cm t ago to tajie it on. 
 
 Gosim. M0I?'^?I5* 'iVeH, do you apprehend that th^^ra Ifi likely 
 to bw durln£; th!5 three inoriths a continu-ad rising mai'ket? 
 
 Hr, PATiriia. I apprt/hafnd that t}ia market ,vi.ll o^ mor^^ or 
 liss.'i stabl:-;, I uoubt if it goes sauch highi?r. But the thought 
 I had in vtiind was that if you »-3re to a-.vard a price that your 
 figures would juo^ify, prfrhaps, an increased price to the pub- 
 lic, the jL^^axBT could not euffor under any diminished demand. 
 
 Coami. UO^-nBt But yoxir clients -«iii suffer-? 
 
 Mr» PATTBE. If anybody. If anyoody, the proJuc^^rs will 
 syffor» Is it otrtter for them, and tho industry that thsy shall 
 gat wh=it they are r.5asonably ontitlod to on the basis on vyhich 
 you would operate for these v>int^r nicnths and take the loss on 
 the surplus, or is it better to take a losy in *he soiling 
 pries, another loss on the surplus and tha laicortainty of a 
 racoupra&nt, witli a possible isisundsrstandin : ana chai'ge of mis- 
 conduct latsr when we txy to g«;t it? It aoonm to nvc that, 
 epsaking on a mattsr of snap judgmcint, it is better to confine 
 
a-vci i. 
 
 TOT' 
 
 m 
 
 iD ^>tc-: 
 
231 
 
 youraalf to axactly what, tht^ warrant calis for, if thfi indus- 
 try dojs suffer. 
 
 Coram. MOHEIS. Of course, upon careful analysis of those 
 figures wo aiiy not find that there have bean thase added costs. 
 We are siraply assuming now that perhaps there has baen soras 
 added cost of production. 3ut I do not ^^ant it to be taken as I 
 the opinion of the GonKnission tliat these costs are warranted. 
 
 iir, PATTES. I do not knovi hoi^ much study you have given 
 
 It, but I think the Ooasnission should take into consid-sration 
 what the public at least does not, and that is that the opar- 
 ation of the surplus plan has materially rsduc^;-d the price 
 that the faanaer has received per quart. How, -sj assume, at 
 least, that your finding of a pries for whole asil3c has been 
 your judgment of what prica the farmer was entitled to on the 
 basis of cost plus a reasonable profit. How, I v/o'old lii:<5 to j 
 suggest to you a y^sighted average b.asis figured out of th„ loss 
 psr tiuart through the operation of the siirplus plan. It varies 
 all the vmy from 1.1 cmts per luart to 3 mills per luart. 
 
 Comm. MOB^IS. But in that argument you >are entirely 
 disregarding the order. I do not think that argument 
 
 would have much weight v/ith me. 
 
 Mr. PATTHB. But the fact remains that we n^ver, since 
 the first of May, have received the price, Gometimas not go much 
 by more than a cent a -juart, that the Coamission awarded us for 
 the milk that we luaie. The production of milk has been con- 
 ducted at a loss continually through the year, since the first 
 of May — lesc- thim the pric^ the Oomaission awarded. I doubt 
 myself whether it would be wise to inflict a loss upon us with- 
 out advertising to the public that we -^are Justified in a later 
 recoupment, 
 
 Comm. M0BBI3. i£y ©xpori^-nce iias be-^n that a good many of 
 
m 
 
 -leiS!". 
 
 # 
 
 « fiSiC ■: 
 
 
 
232 
 
 the fonaers have b^&n pretty well satisfied. Of course you 
 have b©f er means of kno%ing wiiat the general consensue of 
 opinion is with tha farxaers. 
 
 Ohairaian ALLiLM. 1 think your lu-^stion to Mr. Pattea, 
 
 jsr. 
 
 >rris, was a proper question. And I thinjc that you, Mr. 
 
 Patttse, vvitlidrew your reiusjst to the Commission for a changed 
 surplue plan in viow of th© fact that w« ara going out of 
 business three months from today, as oeing a help to the 
 Commission in arriving at a f.iir price for the next thre^ 
 months. That is what you had in aind, s&sn* t it, iir. Morris? 
 
 Oooam. JjOBI^IS. V^s. 
 
 Mr. PATTSE. That w© withdrew our r^^quest for an am^andrasnt 
 to ♦•Jae surplus plan? 
 
 Ohainaan ALLiiy. y«Q » Tbaj.t you 'iiought it was a proper 
 thing to do in vitf*» of -what tiie Goaaission h;is to do at this 
 tiaa. 
 
 Mr. PATTJSE. ^y viev/ of the- laatttfr, -Mid ay proposition to 
 (xBX'^n^ tiie surplus plan, was largely bas^d on th® assumption 
 that you werti soon to go out of busin^-ss as a coiamiesion, and 
 that if thij surplvis plan wera to continue it laust be, &-for@ 
 you go out, eo a3i0nds3d as to cover thos*3 i.oint8 thit I ja-an- 
 tiondd, w>iilg th® Ooxamission iiMi yjt authority to (^nforca 
 its operation. 
 
 OoBiffl. LICRl^IS. We have got to sat the- price for the next 
 throe months, and we hava got to ao it pr-jtty -luicicly. That 
 would reiuire a critical study ox the effect of the Ofaendiiitrnt 
 upon pricas, »ould it not; or, wouia it? 
 
 I 
 I 
 
 Mr. PATTSS. I don't sea nhy» It would bt; iaarely a laatLijr 
 of thii distrlbuMon of tha loss. It is siiiipiy a z-wtnod of 
 Idistributini,. the surplus loss. 
 
 ::oaira, MOH'RIS. All ri^ht. Vh^l do you say about legis- 
 
233 
 
 Xation? 
 
 Mr, PArrsS. ??pjaking broadly, I im loubtful of the 
 advisability of legislative price fixing. 
 
 Oomn, MOBr?IS. I do not tMnk snyDody thinks for a moment 
 that w© oouid sit as a board for priG« fixing; but it would 
 be T&OTQ in the natur-j of an arbitr:ition board for Few England. 
 
 Mr. PATT2E. Thaoretically I think Uiat we wo-ald entirely 
 agree • the practical op-^ration of such i aattar is what bothers 
 ma in f iret tlriinking of it, Kow such a board would be created 
 anl what vrould be tha ooraplexioa of it. We are perftsctly 
 willing,- I hops always will bs willing,- to base our demands 
 for a pric© on a reasonable, fair proposition, ana be able to 
 satisfy reasonable a^n that we ar« fair. To pl6dg«f ourselv^ss 
 to ^ b'iiortJ a boaM that might originate w© know not how, ,and 
 b<i coiaiposed of we know not vshat, I thin:k would bs very doubt- 
 tiil. 
 
 Consa. MOBBIS, What we discussed was the possibility of 
 a representative appointed from isach state by the <k>vernor and 
 Council of the state. 
 
 Ohairajan ALLI:N. Then you do not favor such a thing? I 
 think it is fair to stats here tiiat none of tha Commissioners 
 who have b^^sn sitting are locking tor another job or continuing 
 in thiiir work. 
 
 Mr, PATnS. Let ase say to you that I hive bm^n down in 
 Washington and have heard iu expressed in tho capitoi rcjpeatad- 
 ly by aen who s-ars appointed for ■heir jobs — «ell, I suppose 
 bocausw- thay wera min of intvilli^wnca and und'-rntanding, that 
 they «vere spl-andidly d |uipp -d to S'St tie tha xciik problem bo- 
 causii th^jy knevi absolutely no tiling about it. 
 
 Chairman ALLSIf. Won't you answer t.'iis question, lir, 
 Pat tee? I t is after on» o'clock. This Commission is not going 
 
I 
 
 ^ 
 
234 
 
 to do ewy thing except as thsy fasl that possibly a lS<sw England 
 States t)<^ard might bs of holp to the milk industry. ?Tow, it 
 goaa without saying that unless the producers looic vjith favor 
 on soras such ^hin^ that we shall not taks any action: in other 
 words, what we want to l«avs is a constructive guggastion «ffa@n 
 we go out of business, ^ow, in yoinr opinion, is it wise for 
 this board to leave a constructive suggestion or to work on 
 one in the ne)<t three loonths? 
 
 Ur, PATTEE. I bwiievs that the Board should take under 
 carjjful coneideration ewvsral saattora and make rdcoinr&indations. 
 
 Ohuinaan ALU 3. Well, this is one snatter. This is the 
 principal thing. 
 
 Mr. PA^TTSS. Vou want to know whether we oelicvs there 
 shouldt bi a permanent board? 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. Yes. Or, Is^v^ tha ailit industry like 
 other Industriarj, to tma law of supply and aeaand? 
 
 Mr, ?A:rTEg. It will operate any*. ay. 
 
 Ohairman AI2*EH. Well, it has not operated for tha last 
 yaar. 
 
 Mr. PAT1SS. I would not lika to ooiatait 1iie orgsmization, 
 or ffiyseif person ;ally, cmd I woisli not like to t>e socsiaitted as 
 opposed to that. It is too ne* a question andi too Dig a ons 
 for a small mind like my o^n to express itself on. 
 
 Oomm. MO"fl!HIB. It is a big quastion, certainly. V.ill you 
 think that a-s-tter ov«r and notify Chairraan Allien later on? 
 
 Mr. P-AJISS. I will be vury glad to* 
 
 Oomm, idOKRIS. And it should be done r<2asonably quick, 
 because tlvi; L«gisi Attires of tho several statss are in c^^ssion 
 at thii prt-'Sant time. Most of them are opanins tomorrow, 
 
 Ohainaan .'^U.KTf. But, if your people do not fsil that such 
 a board would bs of halp to the industry, thi^n we will do 
 
2Z5 
 
 Comm. BIPD. I think in faimsse! to Mr, Patt^e, so that 
 h© may taks* up the cilscusjsion with his pr^ropl?, I might eay 
 that there ar@ tw> distinct ideas. One i3 to have urtirorm 
 legislation in oaoh o.f the etatssp in that way giving the 
 commission mora power than it otjaerwise would h.'Sfe; and the 
 other tJirt appointia^^nt of a roprasectative b:; tha Covernor to 
 thQ board, the board Bxsngly t,o ascartain the cost of orodue- 
 tion and the oogt of distribution and state ^hat in their 
 opinion is a f'Jtir price Tor each. They woii3.d have no p-oiioing 
 powers; it v^ould siraply be a qtuestion of fairness , an<?. ths 
 public, the farm'-r and +-he dealer would S^el that someone had 
 inveatigated the matter and had been abi« to mai:Q a otaterat?nt 
 as to the facts »- an unbiasad board. .Jastof her? much v.xl.ue 
 that woiiid be the OoffiRisclon do^s not icnow* 
 
 Mr* PATTSS, I would sx^ir&st that a board br sres^ted 
 with pov/ar to eiaamone witnesses » 
 
 Oomck, BIBB. That would :ill depend i>pon v?hethtjr uniform 
 
 legislation coxUd be put tliro'a«:h. That -^ould be the otrjer side 
 of th© question. 
 
 Oozaa. H01?1?IS« ?hora wov;ld probably be no doubt that such 
 a board could bo created isith po-ssr to uuanjons witnesoes ^lnd 
 taks t5Jctiiaony. What would trouble ejs more enpecialiy would 
 ba ths luastion of -sthat the duties of such a board woiiid be 
 confined to, when you consider its dutios in reference to th« 
 ^edoral anti-trust law, and what policing v-orK it asi^ht do. 
 
 «Sr. PATTSS. 7ha policir^ ^r'ould aesm to me to be a very 
 difficult matter. But the findincc of g-ach a board furnich a 
 banis for public s'^ntisaent and Justify .iction on the p^irt cf 
 thosa who do have soEie policing powsr, like the producirs thwiii- 
 selvss. What little chance I have h;j.d to observ;? the oper- 
 
236 
 
 ation of cuch. boards has led. me -.o doubt, to be very cautiouB 
 
 in ^.ftreein^ to accept thsir findings; particularly in reference 
 
 to agricxiltural -lusstions, whsra the maaabsrs are appointed by 
 
 the Governor 3.nd Ooiancil in ojr Hew England Stataa. It is 
 
 almost always a board of men made up of business interests and 
 
 buoinsss training, and of those professional aisn who have as a 
 
 rule very little understanding of the agricxiltural situation, 
 
 of an a^^^icultural problem, of its possibilitios of dsvelop- 
 
 aiant, towards which we arc* all working — it is difficult for 
 
 tJisa to und-3retand tho hardships -^e have in got ting cost rs- 
 
 porta, and they are out of touch with "rhi a,=7ri cultural industry 
 
 and in cios^j touch with the bus ins ss interacts that are more 
 
 nearly r^-prss^nted by th.,^ dealers. And I have noticed in this 
 
 discussion here -- probably largely our fault -- that great 
 
 weight is attached to fh^- figures presanted by book-keepers 
 
 and snen of that character — prop-v-rly, of course — j.nd we are 
 
 deprived of that servict?, necessarily. And so I say that this 
 
 board I bslieve is exceptional in giving '^^i.fjn.t to ths farmurs* 
 
 side and I hava hasitatsd to coamit th* producers to any boa.rd 
 
 that had a political origin, mady up of lusn associated with 
 
 th089 whose int-v,>rast it is to have our product sold cheaply, 
 
 Ooaaa. HO'Rl'IS. Of courss this OomajiSiSion has triad very 
 
 faithfully and fairly, I thirxk, to get at th-a figur.js on botii 
 
 sidss.The fact that perhaps mora timy nas bmn spent «ith tJae 
 
 dsaiers' fi/^urec than with the faraiars' figur'Sa is because of 
 
 the intricacy of thoss fi,5ures and our lAck of icnowlaJg-i of 
 
 as 
 i^hat goes into city distribution, icnov.ing^ /tv-s do, moro libout 
 
 ths country production. 
 
 Mr* PATTSS. My r ^.iiruxlis -fie re roi-ant to be on a line of 
 statins the facts more than j. criticism. 
 
 Comm. il01?l?IS. I understand. 
 
i 
 
 -:B 
 
237 
 
 i^r, PATT^. But a board which was to study tiiis problem 
 with a view to giving tiie public the cheapest milk it could get 
 for thaaa, rather than to ouild up th-s industry uhxah sustains 
 the public, I thini: would b© v-3ry, very injurious. 
 
 Mr, SHAM D» OLARK. Just a word. I t^ant to say that I 
 am in accord with Mr. Pattae* And as a x^roducer I vsas plsased 
 to h'^ar it statad this morning that, although thars had bssn a 
 sh*^rp increase in the price of milk from a year or so ago to 
 the present price, it had not changed very much the volume or 
 sales. Mow, as to the price for tha n^xt thres months. ?ro- 
 b.ibly it «ili continue aion^ something as it has ifesn in the 
 past. And as to tiin recoupment, I ^hihk I am making no mis- 
 statenent wh=^n I say, as a producer, from the beginning of time, 
 ishanavsr that was, up to a year or so ago, that the dairymen 
 have be^n penalized, fJa^j hava not hid a f -ar chow. And I 
 trust that fa^ will hiVe recoupm^-nt rrom no*; to tha and of time 
 in tho form of a f iir attitude of legislation and th<5 public 
 tov,ards our dairy industry. We arc* not looking for r^-coupment 
 merely for April, May und June, or so.u^thinjt like that; wa want 
 recoupiaent now to the end of tiao in a fair attitud<js tov<ards us 
 by logislaturas and by th* public. That is ail tha recoupment 
 we ask for. 
 
 Mr. OUSI'tSl. Mr. Chaina^an, I wasnot h«r« ishen Mr. Sears 
 stated thd attitud** of the Hood Ccapriny, but I und^irstand it 
 was that thsy regret any incrriase in pric-j to the consum.^r, and 
 I understand it stopped there. Wd regret ^kny incrs?ased prices 
 to th3 consumer, but I sa not ^oing to stop th..?rs. Wo ask this 
 Gommisoion now to liv.3 up to its warrant .ind give us such a 
 spread as to giv^j us jl cost plus profit, we have heard recoup- 
 nsnt talked for nino months, ten months, -jlavan months, evc-n as 
 late as last Novemo^r, whan it must have baen in the minds of 
 
 I 
 
238 
 
 evaiy one of this Ooiamisaivm that, the time was getting short 
 whiJn yov wmxld sit. Tiiit recoupffl'Sint, as far as the d^aJ-drs are 
 concerned, has not come yet, Now, in the i>ast the prici to 
 the faradr has beSfiio-Jwer in tlii months of ^'-^bruary and iAarch. 
 It h-ris bft^n i^raded. I aa not sc'-n/j *J0 S^ into the f araiessrs* 
 figiiraa; I don* t icnow any thins about that. I do knoitf this, 
 ho\serar,- that wa hav<3 given you figures of the cost of dis- 
 tribution of miXVi, .vni between ail the figures given you have 
 got fair svidsnoa, sspecioily if you get th» added itexas that 
 hnvu b^Ksu re^ueoted, go that o,q f.ar as the dealers* costs are 
 consjrnjd you havj got aa n^ar accurate costs as you humanly 
 can jxpjct, with tiiB opportunity cf vsrifyins aXi these figures. 
 
 I suti not >'>ins to call to your attention soei© of tha things 
 that have occurr*! in -^.hc' Ixst hearings in r'S^^^d to figures 
 presentaa to tnis board* out you jaixvQ had sinc^ January 1 data 
 froa at X^^^st one s-at of dealers as lJ>,rr.ii ^3 any,., itnd probiibly 
 ti-ia largest sat of dealers — you havtj iiad actual figures from 
 ■which you could dcit«raiins ciccurately tJiu costs of the distribu- 
 tion 3Jid aeli vyry of r.ilk. You hivs h:ii in the Whiting figurss 
 tha voiuiKi, ths unit costa, you yourseivas have fixed the f .o.b. 
 price to oe paid the farrK^r, ;ma tha spread could b-s dc;tsrmin*sd 
 ^y yo^Af ^^nd a. s-japly naattar of roultiplicatlon would iniicata to 
 you, not ?*hat our profit ^ind lose, sheet showi/d, which was the 
 ant ire buslnass and siuat b^^ always kno'-s?n una aoncid-ireci as such, 
 but lh:3 actual profit on ^i^ fluid ailk business, vyhich it is 
 your duty to fix. 
 
 '^hat wars tha sprfaida that you h.ivo sivsn us^ Ir\ January — 
 and I shall repeat thase for th.-; record — thie i,o *.hs cpr-ad 
 givsn tile dsalera, tho differ^nc-s oetw«^jrn the consumers' price 
 and thd f.o.b. priC3 at 'he fxras; January, -foiniiy, ^0*30; 
 stcra, .040; cans, .0305. The same spread pr:;v ^ilsid in Jimuary, 
 
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239 
 i'ebruary and March. In April,- fa'jiily, .005; stor^^, .0450: 
 oans^ .055S. In tjiosa tiiSKSS the dealers carrisd tho surplus, 
 but thi^re was put into tii«lr coats, «hicii should have bean tokan 
 care of, an agreed prica to oover tiiat of *04 piua, meaning 
 4 mills sometJriing. But thasd costs ard not identiciii with tne 
 spread which you havs glv-^n us. 
 
 In May,- .0675 i'or fsicily, ,0475 i'or store, .0401 for cans. 
 And I think May is th<s first iaoath that ^yan our ^irofit and loss 
 account of th«3 entire? businsss showed a profit. In June our 
 spread was,- faisily, .0C50i store, .0430: sans, .0426. Jiily,- 
 faaaily, .06375; a tors, ,04375; cans, .0563. In August,- ,06375; 
 store, .04575; cans, .03725. Septemb.i-r,-f^iiiiy, .06373; store, 
 .0-4375; cans, .0.57S5. October,- fa'aily, .06375; store,. 04375; 
 c ans , . 03915 . 
 
 inuring the months of ilay, Juna, July, Aup.:ust, Sapteiabar 
 and Octobsr, the surplus plan ^as in full sitacution. 
 
 Wovsciber,- faajiiy, .0675; store, .0*75; cans, .0^54. And 
 during tha month of Ilovember you dstei'-Biinsd tiiat ths ttealars 
 should £ii53orb tto surplus, and you K-iVj rrot ilovsmbor* b figurtis 
 cf at i«ast one concam hare, which I wiini: you can ruly on -- 
 a 3mxli..2r concern coiold qxvz you tiuj fi,p.,rrjr; unitir those uniforai 
 ciasuifica-ciona. 
 
 Ths prica for JJac^o'sibsr we do not krwv,!. That is :'yt to bd 
 sat tied. That is, I maan th-j entire pric-.-r, and wh^in I apaak 
 about the prlsa, you can't sy-siik. about tho spr^^id without con- 
 sidering th-3 dispoation ox' zhe surplus, i«/hioh y^t r-jmaind to 
 h^ dv-atarrainad by your :;o;amisaion. 
 
 Nov«, notg tha-t the gri;-atsst aprsad which *» get v.. is in 
 ths month of June, whan -^d got .0650 fo^r faraiiy, ,0450 for 
 store, .04S6 for cans. Now, g-mtlajaan, thera is just one 
 thing to add, in ^y juagai-^nt. You should giv«i ujJ j. apr^ad that 
 
# 
 
240 
 would enabls us tx» get our cost pXua a reasonable profit. Ho 
 figure prassntad to this 3oiEuniG3ion 
 
 Chairman ALL3Jf. Pardon me, Mr, Cusiclc, but it is twstity 
 minutes of two, and you wero asked — these figures you have 
 given of cours'3 ar-a all jcatters of r'jcord, on all our books 
 hers. You wara askad to spsak for a few minutes on th« prac- 
 ticsLl policy of putting the prioa up during the next thraa 
 months whan the tBtidanoy of avary thing slsa that is in tha 
 market is probably iithir to a tand still or go dioisn. I think 
 ths Oommission would like to haar about that, 
 
 Mr, OUSIGK* We have said that. We want our spread. 
 
 Chairman AIX3U. On tVie lueetion of thi higtissr price dur- 
 ing the next three months, do you think that would be good or 
 bad for ths industry? 
 
 Mr. CUf^ICK. I io not think, personally, it makes any 
 diffsrenco. 
 
 Ohairman ALZ^» These ar^ luastions of courtesy. I msan, 
 the CoBiSiif?nion simply wanted to get your ideas. 
 
 Mr, GUSI'CJK. I i;nowj but it ic not a question of courtesy 
 I «ant to give to ths Commission, it ia an important question 
 of fiCt. 
 
 Ohairjaan ALL3H. You are going ov^r a gr^at lamy figures 
 we have already bsfore xm* 
 
 Mr. OUniOK. I am ^in>5 over thea for the last time, sir, 
 because we think it is tim-s that justice was dona to the deal- 
 ers. That is what we want. I ana saying it for ths rifcord. I 
 can answer any Boston Aaerican articles when the time comes. 
 
 Chiirman ALLS^T. But these are, of course, matters of 
 
 argumi^nt. What we wanted to do *as to get your idea of policy. 
 
 Mr, CUSIC5K.. But what I want from yoa, and I think I am 
 entitled to it, is what you are reTuir^sd to do under your 
 
•fi 
 
warrant, %vhich. you now hxrs from :iil parties exoapt the Tiirnsr 
 Centar. And v^hile I am talking c^n thj spraad, I will direct 
 your att^nti-n i.o th- f ict that svan on tha Kood figurtss the 
 spread must i^xc^ed 7 c-ints,- even according to the Hood figures. 
 I am trying as earnestly and sincerely as I can to direct your 
 attention to the fact that your warrant is to give us cost plus 
 profit; and, furthermore, to r-im&rab^r that our costs arc- anrs 
 or less fix5d. The producers' costs are mora variable and you 
 can't get at tham tha same say as ycu can ours. And, furthsr- 
 Bjore, as long as I can rcmezaber tha prices have always baen 
 
 lower in February and i'arch to th^ produc-^r than in the othsr 
 jaon th . 
 
 ¥ofc, if you want to do justice to tha public, take it off 
 where it bslonge. But I am not discus sing that, I aa acking 
 for what %e ar© entitled to under tha warrant, Iv-aving that 
 :iuftgtion — I am cblig<5d to — to your o->n judgment. It all 
 comes down to ishethor you hava the ntJrvo to do your duty. 
 
 GoEn. MD1??I3. I oo not think ths^r* i0 sny trouble about 
 the •nsrva"; it is a luestion of being satisfied on fixe evi- 
 dence, Mr. Ousiclt, 
 
 Mr. C?J!=;IGK. Wall, you have got all you have asJced for 
 now, 
 
 Qosea. MO'H'PIS. Yaa. Ws have got the gvidence and ive #ill 
 study it carefully. And I do not ^ant anything I hrtva said as 
 acting CJhairaian, in tha place of Chairman Allan for :t f aw min- 
 utiig, 'o indicatsf that th© OojBimisoion has detdtnained that the 
 price will hava to go up on the svidsnci, because *t? hava not 
 discuassd it. 
 
 Oomm, SAWYSB. We have narvs enough to do our duty, too. 
 
 Mr. CUSIOK. Sure. I think tJiat is true, *Ir. Bawysr, and 
 I hope you will. I Imos^ you have been handicapped in th;^ past. 
 

 5WCJ 
 
242 
 
 but triic "Ame you hav« got your flgurss. 
 
 Chairman ALLEN. On the iiiestion of the fiitura of the 
 ComaiisGion. Ws want to hear from tha dealers as to ahethar 
 thsy think this Jojamission should taka any action along that 
 line* I think you wer.2 out, ^ir* Onsick, v/han we brought that 
 up for discussion. I will repaat «hat I said bssfors,- that 
 none of th^ Jommissioners are looking for jxij continuation of 
 th»3ir jobs. It is only to put in a constructive suggestion 
 when «e go out of businyaa. Oan v/e put out -a constructive 
 s-uggQstion vshon this Commiscion go^s cut of business that will 
 help the industry? If both i^^rtirs to this a.^ryaransnt think 
 that soflhithing aiight be dons, or ask us to do something, wa 
 will try to cio some tiling oonctructive. But if you do not, tell 
 118 no^ svhat you think of it, ■ 
 
 ¥jr, SSA^S. jar. Chairman, *hil-3 I have personally a very 
 grsat d<iai of doubt as to the wisdom of any kind of a board of 
 arbitr ition, such as ^r» Morris -- I don't know as hj suggested, 
 but rtef'^rred to, because of its almost nscessarily political 
 character -- and because I biliev© that the succass of this 
 Oomraission, and I tiiink it has b^^n v©ry considerabis in con- 
 trast with ^h&t has happsnsd in othy;r aectione of tha country, 
 has been because of its entire freedom from any political 
 influ^mca, and tho charaot^^r of the mamhirs of the Ooj^nission, 
 I think there is ons line ^shich is very idi-ortant, 'xnl I D:^- 
 lievs ce-rtainly that th^i influ<i'no2 of the Conuaission laight 
 be- vsry gra.i.t if brought to bear on it. I rt^fer to ths iU'-)Btion 
 of transportation. At the pr&saint time anybody who ctudids in- 
 to th^ way that silk comes into the City of Boston, and tht; way 
 it is dsliv-sred h>'jr& oj thts railroad to the daalars, can*t h«ilp 
 but reach at th^ 'V:iry outset th^ conclusion that vory graat 
 improve nients could be raade. Tht^r© ie altogether too much delaiy 
 
243 
 en route, dllk. is laft outsid© of the city and thsjre is aito- 
 gethar too much trucking that is raquir-vid. Tn'^r-3 is an dntir® 
 abeenca on th© part or the different railroads coming in here, 
 avsn under i^ed-sral administration, of soopssration, so that the 
 existing track facilitias which connect on® sootion of the 
 city vflth the othar are availed of in ths slightest d«gr«e. 
 Personally I should like v>3ry much if th3 CoTBraission bcjfore* it 
 dissolves could give some study to th-tt luestion and sake soias 
 reconunendatione in refersace to it, bi^cause I belit-va cartainiy 
 that ail the other r-icomsiendations of thu- individual dsalsrs, 
 tha pleadings on thair part, have h3,d no Qffaet r/hatsivar. That 
 has been tha axperiencs of ay client. It sssaas to m& that a 
 Comoiission *hich has been as succassful as this 3o.iuai8Qion has 
 in haiKiling this complicated luestion would be listened to with 
 ths greatest attention oy tha people who am no* administering 
 the aff -iirs of our railroads, and that bt^fort; tha ifediiral 
 Government gives up its control,- a control which now means a 
 unified control over ail the railroMs centering m Boston, - 
 a very grsat iaprovaaiisnt might ba accomplished in that ^^say. 
 
 Ohainaan ALLSS^. If you tfiii put that in writing we will 
 be vary glad to conoider it, Mr. Ss^ars. 
 
 Mr, SSASS. I '^ill ba visry glad to put it in writing. 
 
 Ohairaian ALLSH. In as much detail as you can, so that 
 W0 can appraciato clsarly what tiia probiaia is. 
 
 Hr. SSABS. I will ba v«ry glad to do so. 
 
 Ohairxaon ALLIiN. .'Mow, Mr. Ousick, what do you say? The 
 question '-^^ ars discussing is, iwhat cons true tiva sugg^istion 
 Slight this Ooiamigsion moksj as to any futur^^ tribunal or arbi- 
 tration sxjard, or any kinu of a coaunisaion that will be of 
 benefit to fh^i milk industry? 
 
 Mr. OUSIOK. I shall not bo able to discuss that, because 
 
• 
 
244 
 
 I hav© not given it thoiight snou^li to express any opinion in 
 ragard to any triouneO. to ait after this aosusission goee out 
 of business. Tna lawyers on the Board know it is a mighty 
 difficult proposition. I agree witfe what Mr* S^ars h-is said 
 about transportation. You could help us a lot thard. I could 
 give you a dQ?,«n instances that vould be very illustrative of 
 what is goinr3 ^^ hsra in Boston 
 
 Chairman AIISN'. Won't you join with jlr. 3aara, thijn, in 
 putting it before tlia Coaniission in dot ail - — 
 
 Mr. 3USICK. Yos . I just want^:jd to aay to you that we 
 have a city ^sxpanse of |6,C00; tn-^y hava a city jxpane^ of 
 |1,8Q0 or |.i,9GG. Wc C3Ji*t gat a car io id of aiik from the 
 gdneril dellv-^ry st.ation, from the sub-station, to the Elm farm 
 Milk Oompany; *e have to cart i t. And simply bocaus^i th^y have 
 I th« 3entr.ii Macsachtisetts road th-^rs, and thi* Boston .% Alb^aiy 
 insists on conisidering that as a fraig}it railroad and freight 
 raovoniant, not vithin the purvio?* intonddo oy th:i Interstate 
 Oojnraarce OctaniBsion. It in before WasMngton now, and I think 
 we will h-:iV-3 it el-aaned up. But you c-an s«e what it sill save 
 ue in expense. 
 
 Here is a ffleEoorioidua thit has been handed rae by Mr .Whiting 
 that I think you could h^lp a good d^iai on if you would. It is 
 in the form of a rvsolutioni 
 
 •'Bosoived, that the system of deposit for bottlss 
 deliversd to atorssis in th;; intar-sst of economical 
 ailic h'indling ana ^-iiat tht* syetert in -Jindorsad by th© 
 CojBff'.isrsion and ite maint«nanc-5r is rscosBB^nded to 
 dealers and storakaepsra.* 
 
 You S'^t5 at tiicj pr^iaent tia» we charge tham v/ith the bottlas. 
 Somatifflco w« iiavq a iittls trouble, and a word from the Conaniss- 
 ion woLdd do js lot of ^ood, if «*j could ^ot tha aonraicsion on 
 
245 
 record as r^j commending such s charge for bottles as bsing in thd 
 
 intirast of economical siilk handling. It ie wJaat vj are doing 
 
 no%. I will hand tiiat to you smd you can consider it. (Kunding 
 
 paper to Dr. Gilbert.) 
 
 The o-.hr.-r thing I wotiid aug^^eat would bt? a great deal more 
 attention on the qu-sstion of prica Tor pints 
 
 I do not think thare is anything f\irther I can say to you. 
 
 Mr, PATTKE. In vijw of your rytuast for suggestions, we 
 woxild likes to go on record, if you please, on this faatter, that 
 W8 reiu«36t the i'sderal Hilk CoHmission for Hew England to ro- 
 ceivQ from us later in writing suggestions for a constructive 
 program after tha Goamiission go=e out of business. We reiuost 
 that those suggestions bt given consideration by your Cor^nisoion 
 with a vi^v^ to their adoption wiien you go out of business. 
 
 CoaKi. MOBBIS. Of coursu if iiny aaov^ ie to b^ maa© — I 
 don't know that it is adviaabls, I don't know that it is .«antad 
 on tho part of aithar th.5 aealars or tlria producars; but. if any 
 move is cont^mplattsd requiring iugislation for a p^naem^nt 
 board, it should bs mad:? v^ry speedily, baoausd tiicii Legislatiaras 
 are in session, and some of them ao not iHiVs a very long Ssjss- 
 ion. Tha bills would nave to be introduced. I judge, though, 
 from what lias o^an said hers, tnat there does not seam to ba 
 any great call for any such ii;ov@. But if you havia any r-.= com- 
 mendations on t>iat point, I as sums- Chairman All^n would be glad 
 to receive thsm. 
 
 Mr. CU3I0K. You havif not dacid^d what surplus plan ¥»Q 
 ara rtmnin^ under in Hovambyr and Decambar? 
 
 Oomra, iaOI?T?IS. We will taka tnar, unU;ir advisement in 
 connection Y*ith the othar mattars **hen we go into executiva 
 sssnion. 
 
 Mr, CUSIOJ-. ^all than, just refer, will you, to tlie 
 
record, and Uiat gives soma at our reasons. You laios ws hay« 
 not ^one into it entirely, but the racord of ths last laeeting 
 ■will give som'5 of oiur reasons for objecting to that 5^, 
 
 Coajm, :aOi?'RIS. I was not prosent, 
 
 Mr« CU3I0K. Y3S, you ^&re pr^.^8ent at ths xast jaeating, 
 anu you said you wouli take the joatter up at the n,act hearing. 
 And than yesterday you said you "i^ould tajce it up today, and it 
 has not bayji talton no. 
 
 Coram. M0"RT?II3» W.is aom^ argument mads on it? 
 
 ISr, OUSIOK. "TAers c8rtoJ,niy -sos. 
 
 Coiani. MCTf^IS . Js tliero ^r»y thing an do not understand now? 
 
 Mr, r;U?XOK» I cion't knov/. But it is .iovdrwa to eoiae 
 extent in ths last aiseting,- in the laat record of wiu Gom~ 
 iRission* That is the re cord of I3ao«tAbsir 2os 
 
 CoBJK. MCT?i?IS. I raaaabar fthut sids e.-.iu^ 
 
 Mr. SEAPS. As thJs, I urderetand, 3s the iiist time we 
 are goin^ ^o br officially together, my cii-^-nto caiU I faui v«3ry 
 certain that ?/h-s-t I am saying rsprss^nts ths opinion of t^very 
 cne ^ho h-xt been before this Goa-ui salon,- that via all appreciate 
 vsry rruch the ^foifk that th? Ocrfiffiiasion has don.3 and tha tiiSHS 
 that ths T.smbers, '.vithou^ any rerriunaration :md siKply for 
 patriotic raartonSp hT/fi ,51 v. m to a study of these difficult 
 problems that somei before yvva* Aiici uht>y v.'i.^h to yjxpro^-s to 
 you thoir thanir^; I'or th^ a-itienoi ojtid ability thau the Com- 
 laiRsion havo shfi'^fn in dealing- with theoe prcblsas. {Appxau3<3,) 
 
 Ohairtsan ALT/^, Th.2 ^'^Cirfltui^.'^icn apprtioiates ivliat iir. Sviara 
 has Jiist said, nnd. *& will t-ijte it ac coming from :ill of those 
 who h'tye SK3t with, us from tira^ to t:ii2ie . It is ^i littiv.' iatd 
 to m3.ke ppeochar. , no thnt sve won'*: have 3 Ui>;.cCi;, but I Uixnk 
 I can cay for the ^onrrAt- r :on thrit it h.,-.s bu-;n ii v.vry int.; resting 
 ''.nd inctructive — to r^s, anyr-jy, inotructivc -- poriod, and I 
 
SA 
 
247 
 2iaj sure we aXl hope that ws have done a little mors good than 
 *e hava done harm. The Ooasmission will not maot in a hoaring 
 again. We will give out our rulings in rtsgard to the next 
 three months and will pass on these oth^r mat tors :4S eoon as 
 poesibld, and will r<2rnain on call. Our authority, as lir, 
 Sorris stated to you tojay, continues xmtil April 1, as far as 
 the rulings of the Ooajniaaion go. And if you hava smy sug- 
 gestions to put in that til© Oofflniission m3iy consider befora 
 April 1, if you will stind thaa in «w will act uyon thsm. 
 
 Mr. clam;. I do not i^ant you to la-ave here before you 
 
 give me the opportunity, as President of thi Association, to 
 get up here and thank ths Oonimission for ths -^'ork tliat they 
 have done. I want to thank you in behalf of 15,000 producers. 
 I trust that our rtoiationahip that we have hadhere in the past 
 year or so has borne the feeling tjiat ws shall continue on,- 
 producsrs, daaiers and the public,- in tha way in t!a^ future 
 that will bs? for the best interests of the dairy industry of 
 Hess England. I tiianx you. 
 
 Oh airman ALUoIR. We thank you, 
 
 Cnie hearing v.ae closed at 1,50 p.m^ ) 
 

 i 
 
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