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 THE PRESEOT STATE ^ ^ j 
 
 I 
 
 THE CHURCH RATE QUESTION ! 
 
 EXHIBITED, 
 
 IN AN j 
 
 ABSTRACT OF THE EVIDENCE 
 
 CONTAINED 
 
 IN THE EEPORT OP A SELECT COMMITTEE OF j 
 
 THB I 
 
 HOUSE OF LORDS, i 
 
 APPOINTED TO ENQUIRE INTO j 
 
 i 
 
 THE PRESENT OPERATION OF THE LAW 
 AND PRACTICE RESPECTING THE ASSESSMENT AND THE 
 
 LEVY OF CHURCH RATES, i 
 
 AND WHICH WAS ORDERED TO HE PRINTED, 
 AUG. 5, 1859. 
 
 Stitfi ©iJition. 
 
 LONDON: 
 
 EIVINGTONS, WATEELOO PLACE. 
 
 1860.
 
 LONDON : 
 GILBERT AND RIVINOTON, PRINTERS, 
 
 ST. John's square.
 
 ADVERTISEMENT. 
 
 The following pages contain an abstract of the evidence taken 
 by a Select Committee of the House of Lords, on the subject 
 of Church Rates, in the month of July last, and which was 
 ordered to be printed on the 5th of August. It is the object 
 of the Editor to facilitate, not to supersede, the use of the 
 original volume, (a folio book of more than 200 pages, contain- 
 ing more than 2000 questions and answers), the whole of which 
 appears to him to demand the thoughtful study of every one, 
 whose duty it is to form a just opinion upon the political, 
 social, and religious bearings of the Church Rate question. 
 The reader has here presented to him, not a perfect and com- 
 plete epitome of the proceedings of their Lordship^'s Com- 
 mittee, but a faithful abstract of the greater part of the 
 statements made by the witnesses, without a single note or 
 comment. The Editor considers that he would have been 
 
 A 2
 
 * ADVEETISEMENT. 
 
 guilty of disrespect if he had presumed in this publication 
 to suggest the inferences which might be drawn from the 
 evidence which has been adduced. 
 
 W. H. HALE, 
 
 ARCHDEACON OF LONDON. 
 Charterhouse, Oct. 10, 1859. 
 
 N.B. The Heport may be obtained at the Sale Office, 
 House of Lords, the price being 2s. 6d. 
 
 The attention of the Reader is especially directed to the 
 Evidence given by the witnesses against whose names the 
 asterisk * is affixed. 
 
 Z UJUC . 
 
 J
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 LIST OF WITNESSES. 
 
 PAGE 
 
 MONDAY, JULY 11, 1859. 
 Venerable Archdeacon Hale 7 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 15, 1859. 
 Reverend John Cale Miller, D.D 15 
 
 Honourable and Reverend Grantham Munton Yorke . . ; . .19 
 Right Honourable Charles Earl of Romney .21 
 
 MONDAY, JULY 18, 1859. 
 
 Charles Holte Bracebridge, Esq. 23 
 
 *Mr. Samuel Morley , 25 
 
 THURSDAY, JULY 21, 1859. 
 
 Thomas Alcock, Esq., M.P 29 
 
 Right Honourable Thomas Henry Sutton Sotheron Estcourt, M.P. . .31 
 Venerable Archdeacon Sandford ........ 3G 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 22, 1859.' 
 
 Heverend Joshua William Brooks . .88 
 
 *Reverend Abraham Hume, LL.D .40 
 
 Reverend Robert Chapman Savage ........ 45 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 26, 1859. 
 Right Honourable Stephen Lushington, D.C.L. ...... 48 
 
 *Charles James Foster, Esq., LL.D. .52 
 
 Mr. Walpole E. Greenwell 64 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 29, 1859. 
 
 *Revercnd George Osborn .......... 55 
 
 Mr. John Gladding 58 
 
 Reverend Edward Moore (jO
 
 SELECT COMINiriTEE 
 
 ASSESSMENT AND LEVY OE CHURCH RATES. 
 
 HOUSE OF LORDS, 
 
 MONDAY, JULY 11, 1859. 
 
 THE DUKE or MAELBOEOUGH IN THE CHAIE. 
 
 The Venerable WILLIAM HALE HALE, Archdeacon of 
 London, called in, and examined. 
 
 The parishes of the Archdeaconry of London being well endowed Archdeacon 
 with property for the snpport of chnrclies, disputes are less liable '^' 
 
 to take place with respect to church rates, o *. In St, Luke's 
 parish rates are raised for the mother Church, but not as they 
 ought for the district churches, which were built twenty or 
 thirty years ago. 9. The clergyman, as well as the church- 
 
 warden, is obliged to incur expense ; and, in the case of St. 
 13ai-nabas, to spend money which has not been reimbursed. II. 
 One of the great causes of the refusal of church rates 
 has been the weakness of the law to compel people to pay 
 rates w hen granted ; the churchwarden foreseeing, that he en- 
 tails upon himself immense expense and difficulty in enforcing 
 the rate, if, when it is made, persons refuse to pay, 12; unless 
 the law had been strengthened for the enforcement of church 
 rates, a different decision in the Brainti*ee case would have 
 made no difference in the conduct of the pi'esent opj)onents of 
 churcii rates. 14. Had that decision given to the minority 
 
 the power to make a rate, it would not have allayed the hostile 
 
 * The figures refer to the number of the Question and Answer in the original 
 Report.
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE OX THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Archdeacon feclino;, but rather the reverse. 1 5 . No settlement of the 
 
 HI 
 
 * ^' law, but such as almost crushed opposition to it, would have 
 made persons, who have power over popular bodies, cease 
 their opposition. 1 7. There is as strong reason for a change 
 of the law now, as there was previously to the decision of the 
 i3raintree case. 18. The difficulty of making a rate, and 
 getting it paid when made, arising from the great number of 
 rate-payers, and the popular character of the vestries, the 
 remedy, which suggests itself, is that of having to deal with a 
 smaller number of persons, and throwing the burden upon 
 the owners of property instead of the occupiers. 19. The 
 owners of house property, as well as of landed property, seem 
 so universally to acknowledge the value of churches upon their 
 properties, that the great majority of them, if the question were 
 put, whether the churches should be maintained or not, would 
 probably say, it is so much our interest to have the church 
 maintained, that we are willing to assist in getting rid of this 
 difficulty, at least as respects the fabric. 20. Whether 
 
 the putting the rate upon the owners is a measure applicable 
 alike to the country and the towns, cannot be ascertained, 
 without a more accurate inquiry as to the number of owners 
 in towns and cities. In large towns a very large proportion 
 of the property is frequently held by a very small number of 
 persons, and is in much fewer hands than is commonly ima- 
 gined. 22. It would be difficult to determine for the pur- 
 pose of church rate, whether the owner were the original 
 owner or the lessee. 23. The number of owners of pro- 
 
 perty who are Dissenters, is so small, compared with that of 
 the Churchmen, that there would be little difficulty with them : 
 but as to getting rid of the plea of conscience, that is impos- 
 sible, though you may have great doubt of its being a con- 
 scientious objection. The present conscientious objections 
 to church rates did not originally exist as part of the system 
 of dissent. 25. I do not see any mode of overcoming the 
 difficulty of, what they call, the conscience of the Dissenter. 
 The State has had to deal with one sect who certainly had a 
 conscientious objection,— the Quakers, who held it wicked to 
 go to war, and to maintain the Church ; the State found 
 no means of meeting their conscientious difficulty, but over-
 
 AXD LEVY OF CHURCH RATES. 9 
 
 whelmed it at once, by declaring that that scruple of con- ArL-hdeacon 
 science was not to be attended to. 26. And they are ''"• 
 under compulsory laws to pay, it forming one of their " suffer- 
 ings," as they call it. 28. As to the mode by which a satis- 
 factory settlement of the church rate might be arrived at, the 
 only mode which has suggested itself is this, — Considering 
 that this is a question, involving the existence of the Esta- 
 blished Church, I think that it is a subject of sufficient im- 
 portance to call for a Parliamentary declaration upon it ; and 
 that if it were formally proposed as a question for public con- 
 sideration, whether the national Church shall continue to exist 
 or not as a national Church, and whether the law, Avhich entails 
 upon the public the payment of a very small sum of money in 
 the way of church rate for the support of the national Church, 
 ought not to be enforced, it is possible that an important 
 change of feeling might take place, and that the enforcement 
 of the law of church rate might be acknowledged a duty to 
 the national Church, which the State ought to fulfil. 29. 
 The alleged grievances of the Dissenters I regard as only 
 commonplaces used to gain votes upon the hustings, and to 
 excite party feeling. I do not consider them to be grievances. 
 Their conduct shows, that on their part you will not have con- 
 sent to any measure, which shall strengthen the Established 
 Church, or cause her to be less the object of popular attack. 
 SO. Their objection is altogether an objection to the Church, 
 as an Established Church, deliberately put forward by persons, 
 who have designs for the alteration of the connexion between 
 the Church and State in this country ; and no taking away 
 any grievance will convert them. 81. The abolition of 
 church rates is valuable to them, only as a first step to the 
 abolition of the Established Church. 83. The diminution 
 of the amount of church rate raised of late years is owing to 
 the anxiety on the part of the Church to keep the rate at the 
 lowest possible point, so as to avoid giving any offence which 
 could be avoided. 36. The abolition of church rates would 
 be the greatest blow to the Established Church which could 
 be inflicted, because if the State yielded that point, I cannot 
 see what excuse there could be for not so yielding the pay- 
 ment of tithes. It would seem to be the admission of a prin-
 
 10 SKLKCT COMMITTEK ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Archdeacon ciplo, whicli vvould apply as much to the one case as to the 
 '^'^' other. If I am asked as regards ReHgion, whether Religion 
 would suffer, that is quite a matter of theoretical opinion. I 
 do not pretend to say, whether Religion might, or might not, 
 prosper under the one state of things, as well as under the 
 other, but the Established Church of the country would be 
 destroyed by it. 87. If church rates were abolished, the 
 churches might possibly not fall into decay; but the security 
 which the Church now enjoys from its connexion with the 
 State, would be seriously diminished. The abolition of church 
 rates would be equivalent to the abolition of parishes, because 
 you would take away from parishes the power of self-taxation. 
 The same principle applies to a parish as to a county. Take 
 away from a county the power of self-taxation, and the county 
 would not exist. As to the alleged grievance of the applica- 
 tion of church rates to other objects than divine worship and 
 the maintenance of the fabric, I do not consider such applica- 
 tion as necessarily grievances, provided that they tend to the 
 benefit of the parish at large. It must be borne in mind that 
 church rates, as they now remain, are only a part of that 
 general power of taxation for the public benefit which, in most 
 ancient times, every parish possessed for itself. I believe it to be 
 true that the highway rates, and other rates, which are now 
 enacted under the statute law, were originally for duties per- 
 formed by the parishes, wlio thus provided for their local wants 
 or local government. And, therefore, if I find a parish beadle 
 paid out of the church rate, I do not consider that an abuse, 
 because that officer is an officer of the parish, appointed for the 
 general benefit of the parish. The same with regard to clocks 
 . and to bells, which are for the use and benefit of the parish. 38. 
 The abolition of the church rate would deprive the parish of 
 the power of doing any thing for itself ; without church rate 
 the parishioners could not conveniently meet in vestry for 
 parish purposes ; they vvould not have the means of paying for 
 the pens and ink for the parish meetings ; the parish would 
 be annihilated. 39. Parishes frequently require a vestry 
 
 clerk ; and if the church rate were abolished, you would have 
 no vpstry clerk to do the work of the parish. He is a parish 
 officer. 40. I am not at all prepared to say that the pay-
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH RATES. 11 
 
 ment of church rates should be both made compulsory, and Archdeacon 
 also extended to other objects besides the mamtenance of ^^"''^' 
 divine worship and the support of the fabric. I would leave 
 it to the parish to say whether such things ought to be, or 
 not. If I made any thing compulsory, it would be simply the 
 repair of the fabric, and the maintenance of divine worship, 
 those being the objects, which the ecclesiastical court would 
 sanction, as the proper objects of a church rate ; but I think 
 there was a power under the common law on the part of the 
 parish, to make rates for other things than the actual repair of 
 the church, such as the destruction of vermin for the general 
 benefit of the parish. 41. I think that ancient cases might 
 be shown from which you might prove the power of the parish 
 to provide for those wants in that way. 44. As to the 
 number of the parishes in which church rates have been 
 refused, further investigation is necessary to ascertain it. 46. 
 As to the making church rates compulsory, even in the 
 parishes where they are now abolished, unless the law be com- 
 pulsory it will not effect its object, — that of having rates 
 made and levied. 47. I believe that the. making the law 
 compulsory would strengthen the Established Church ; as on 
 the other hand, I am prepared to say, that the abolition of 
 church rates will weaken it. 48. If by a change of the 
 
 law the burden of the church rate were laid upon the owners 
 instead of upon the occupiers, and the occupiers knew that the 
 legislature approve of these rates, and had determined that 
 they were to be raised by this new process of applying to the 
 owners instead of to the occupiers, I think that then for the 
 sake of peace .they would themselves make the rate without 
 altering the law, and giving a power to make a rate in opposition 
 to the feelings of a majority of the vestry. 49. A Parlia- 
 mentary declaration as to the propriety of maintaining the na- 
 tional Church having been made, the conclusion from it would 
 be, the making church rate compulsory on any parish for the 
 maintenance of the fabric. When Dr. Lushington was 
 examined before the Committee in 1851, he said, "Let the 
 law declare what the objects of church rates are, and 
 strengthen the law, and then we shall have no difficulty."'' 
 Strengthening the law cannot moan any thing else but the
 
 12 SELKCT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Archdeacon Compelling all persons to pay. 50. Though the House of 
 ^*^®* Lords declared that a church rate can only be levied by a 
 majority of the parish, it never for one moment expressed a 
 doubt as to its being the duty of the majority to repair the 
 church. Those persons forming the majority, who do not act 
 under the monition to make a church rate, are a disobedient 
 majority, and in one sense of the word, an illegal majority ; it 
 is a majority refusing to do that which all the judges of the 
 land declared to be the legal duty of the parish. By the 
 change of times, and the change in the practice of the 
 courts, the parish cannot now be brought before the eccle- 
 siastical courts, and there pronounced contumacious, and 
 made to suffer penalty in consequence. 51. I consider 
 
 that the temporal courts ought to interfere, not to enforce 
 ecclesiastical censures, but to enforce the law. In Lord 
 Tenterden's time, a Mandamus was granted to compel a 
 parish to elect churchwardens, which was rebellious in 
 the matter of churchwardens, as other parishes may now be 
 said to be rebellious in the matter of church rate. In that 
 case the common law did interfere and enforce the election of 
 ecclesiastical officers for the parish ; and it seems to me that 
 there should be an analogous remedy with respect to the 
 repair of the church and the maintenance of divine wor- 
 ship. 52. Parties who opposed the Mandamus to make a 
 church rate, would be liable not to ecclesiastical, but to 
 common law censure. 53. Were the attempt made to 
 give this power to the court of law by Act of Parliament, 
 the doing it would require the greatest care, because when 
 you convert ecclesiastical or common law into statute law, 
 there is the greatest difficulty to avoid narrowing the opera- 
 tion of the law. 56. Notwithstanding the present state of 
 public feeling, and the fact of the House of Commons having 
 passed measures for the abolition of church rates, I think 
 that such a power might be given by Act of Parliament 
 to the courts of law; Churchmen consider that they have 
 been left by their friends in a defenceless state, and we do 
 not know, what would be the consequence, if the demands of 
 the Church wore properly sanctioned by high authority, and 
 allowed to be justly followed up. 57. The rate should
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH RATES, 1 .S 
 
 be limited to the fabric, and to things necessary for the Archdeacon 
 performance of divine worship. 59. Were church rates ^^^^' 
 
 aboHshed, one effect in many cases would be the perfect im- 
 poverishment of the clergymen. 62. He would be in the 
 same condition with respect to the church, in which he now is 
 with respect to schools. It is incredible, how heavily the 
 burden of schoolrooms and schoolmasters falls upon the 
 parochial clergy from the difficulty of getting support from 
 the farmers around. 62. If church rates were abolished, 
 the farmers would act with regard to the church as they do 
 with regard to schools, leave the clergyman to pay the 
 expense of maintaining them. 65. The abolition of church 
 rate would endanger the existence of tithes, because whatever 
 differences there may be between them in point of law and 
 in point of fact, the difference with regard to conscience 
 is the same. The Dissenter will hereafter put forth the same 
 objection against tithe which he now does against church 
 rate. 67. The church receives the church rate for its 
 maintenance, and the clergyman receives his tithes for doing 
 his duty ; and the arguments which may be used by any 
 person against the payment of tithe, or against the payment 
 of rate, on the ground of conscience, are equally just or 
 equally unjust. 70. Were church rates abolished the 
 
 right of any parishioner. Dissenter or not, to a seat in the 
 church, should be preserved. 79. In those town parishes 
 where church rates have ceased, they have been successfully 
 supplied by voluntary contributions, but in country parishes 
 there would be a great failure. 81. 84. In some town 
 
 parishes, as in St. Barnabas, a district of St. Luke's, volun- 
 tary contributions wholly fail. 80. The heli) has come not 
 from the parishes, but from rich individuals, and sometimes 
 from persons at a distance, owing to the individual zeal of 
 the clergyman who has applied to his friends for help. 94. 
 Were an Act passed to throw the burden upon the owners, 
 instead of the occupiers, the application of it to owners in 
 large parishes should not take place, until a certain time had 
 been allowed to all the parishes to consider the subject. 
 Assuming such a law to have passed, I think there are very 
 few parishes in which the rate-payer would not be glad to find
 
 14 SKLKCT CO.MMITTEE ON THK ASS KSSM KNT 
 
 .\r(;)i<ieacon A loctis posnitenttcd, and prefer making the rates themselves. 96. 
 Halo. They would know that eventually the burden must come 
 upon themselves in the shape of increased rent. 97. In 
 the case of leasehold property, the leaseholder would be 
 accounted owner ; but the burden would be very light. It is 
 the principle of the church rate, not its burdensomeness, 
 which is now in question — the matter relates to a payment of 
 251. per parish. Under this plan owners not living in the 
 parish would be liable. 106. As to exemption of the 
 
 owner from church rate on the ground of conscience, there 
 would be great objection to it. One does not see why a 
 principle should be applied to the Church, which it is impos- 
 sible to apply to other State matters. I do not see why a 
 man'^s. conscience should be relieved from paying to the 
 church. I have to pay for other things which, if 1 choose to 
 bring forward the ground of conscience, are just as much 
 against my conscience, and yet you do not relieve me. 107. 
 The objection to relieving persons on the ground *of con- 
 science, is this, that it is introducing into the English juris- 
 prudence a perfectly new principle, and, I think, one very 
 injurious to the State. 108. Were we to admit that 
 
 Dissenters might be exempted, they would take advantage of 
 the admission, and after all would not consent to any measure 
 to secure parochial rates for the maintenance of the church. 
 1 09. I think that the landowner Dissenters would be glad 
 to obey the law. The religious Dissenters are not really our 
 opponents ; but our opponents are persons, who have other 
 political objects, and who are not themselves Dissenters 
 earnestly attached to some particular church or creed. 113. 
 Under a new statute law I cannot conceive that the owners 
 would not do that which they ought to do, because in no case 
 would they be applied to except for a definite purpose. 119. 
 I believe that the number of owners of property who are Dis- 
 senters, especially not counting the Wesleyans as Dissenters, 
 is very small as compared with the whole population. 122.
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH HATES, 15 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 15, 1859. 
 
 The Rev. JOHN CALE MILLER, D.D., Honorary Canon 
 of Worcester, called in, and examined. 
 
 The Condition of Birmingham. — Birminfjham is one parish. Rev. Dr. 
 144. Prior to 1842 there were nine other churches, be- ' ^^' 
 
 sides St. Martin's, the mother church, for each of which 
 an estimate was made, and a certain sum assigned to each 
 district out of the rate made upon the whole parish. 143. 
 Since 1842 no rate has been made, but many new churches 
 have been built, and this without regard to church rate, 
 because it was gone. 169. Some were built under 
 
 special Acts of Parliament ; others under the Church Build- 
 ing Acts. There is generally one new church consecrated 
 in each year. 174. The uncertainty as to maintaining the 
 churches has not discouraged the building or the contribu- 
 tion. 176. Some of the older churches were built expect- 
 ing to be maintained by rates. Any attempt to make a rate 
 would set Birmingham in a flame (302, 303) under the 
 present state of the law. 305. In 1841. 1599 persons as- 
 sessed to the relief of the poor, and 4788 not assessed, 
 formed the majority of 6387, who voted against the rate, 
 only 597 persons voted for the rate, 523 being assessed to 
 the relief of the poor, and 74 not so rated. The causes 
 of refusal of the rate, were, to a great extent, political 
 grounds ; opposition to the Church of England ; conscientious 
 objection no doubt on the part of many. There were pro- 
 bably opinions as to abuses in the church rate which precipi- 
 tated the suspension, e. g. churchwardens' expenses at the 
 visitation dinner. 147, 148, The mother church is now 
 maintained by a collection made by the churchwardens 
 from the persons who have seats assigned them, 154. 
 The expenses amount to 400?, or 450?, per annum, be- 
 sides extras, 1 80 ; for which churchwardens make special 
 collections, being sometimes out of pocket. 182. The 
 
 present system of providing for worship, and maintain- 
 ing the fabrics, is a millstone round the necks of the great
 
 ](> SKLECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 llev. Dr. majority of ministers in Birmingham, 178; if extended to 
 ^ ' ^^' the whole country, the total abolition of church rates would 
 be spiritually the greatest national calamity. 328. How 
 St. Martin's fabric, or that of the other churches, could be kept 
 up, no idea can be formed. 233. The spire of St. Martin's 
 
 was ready to fall ; it cost 7000^., but the money though raised 
 came in so slowly, that the very words " St. Martin's spire" 
 were tiresome to men's ears and eyes. 234. Begging is 
 now a chief element in the duties of the clei'gy, 238 ; inter- 
 fering most seriously with parochial duties, and adding 
 largely to their anxieties, 241 ; they are becoming in con- 
 sequence more secularized every day. 242. The other 
 clergy of Birmingham are paid by pew rents, and have 
 most inadequate incomes. The great evil of the present 
 system is, that every thing is obtained from the pockets 
 of the generous few. There are unworthy Churchmen 
 calling themselves Churchmen, who give nothing. 185, 186. 
 There should be a compulsory rate upon all Churchmen 
 for the maintenance of the church, 187. 195. 203. 289. 337 ; 
 a voluntary rate would be an entire failure if attempted 
 universally throughout the country. 213. Many approve 
 church rates in theory, say that a church rate ought to be 
 made ; know that it cannot be made ; would think it mad- 
 ness to attempt a rate in Birmingham, and yet never give 
 any thing. 214. The voluntary system requires that every 
 minister should be above the average. 232. But all Dis- 
 senters should be at once exempted. 187. The argument 
 that this would be a pecuniary premium upon dissent not 
 worth nuich ; such a feeling would not operate in Birmingham 
 to any considerable extent. 188. The objection against 
 " ticketing" Dissenters is puerile ; if a man is a Dissenter, 
 he is known to be one. 189. 251, 252. He ought not to 
 be grieved to claim exemption in a formal way, as a check 
 against dishonest persons stating themselves Dissenters. 
 He should be exempted in the most inoffensive way, upon 
 declaring, I, a Nonconformist, declare that I am not in 
 communion with the Church of England. 191. 197. 212. 
 Persons would not declare themselves and get exempted, 
 except on conscientious grounds, they should not be deprived
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH UATKS. 17 
 
 of baptism, marriage, or burial, 192, or other ministrations, Rev. Dr 
 201', lest their separation from the clergy should be final. 205. ' ^^' 
 A person exempted should not have a pew in preference to a 
 parishioner who paid the rate. 200. 221. 223. Might be a 
 member of the vestry, except for the purposes of the rate, 201 ; 
 and legally be a churchwarden, not carrying out strictly the 
 logical consequence of exemption. 202. Declaration should 
 be annually renewed, to give opportunity for return to the 
 Church, 209, 210, 211. 221, before the meeting of the vestry. 
 225. To exempt upon a statement that a person had a con- 
 scientious objection against paying a rate, would be a poor way 
 of exempting. 215. The book should be called over on the 
 1st of January; persons claiming exemption should have no 
 vote. 226, 227, 228. The claim to exemption would not be 
 objected to by that class of Dissenters in Birmingham, who con- 
 scientiously and religiously object to church rate, but that class 
 of Dissenters, who have declared that the abolition of church 
 rate is only the first step to the confiscation of Church pro- 
 pei'ty, could not be expected to be satisfied. 250. There 
 is no town in England in which there is more constant and 
 ready co-operation between Dissenters and Churchmen. 255. 
 The Dissenters who thus co-operate, would not object to pay- 
 ment of church rates being made compulsory on Churchmen, 
 and not on themselves ; but not so the other class of Dissenters, 
 who have ulterior ends in their opposition to cliurch rates. 256. 
 258. 265. Doubtful which class of Dissenters preponderates 
 in Birmingham. 266. It is the opinion of Dissenters, as 
 expressed in vestry in 1852, that it is highly unjust, that per- 
 sons who are not members of the Church of England, and who 
 are Dissenters from it, should be compelled to contribute to 
 the support of the churches and institutions belonging to that 
 establishment. But there was another principle introduced 
 in 1832, that every religious association ought to depend on 
 the voluntary contributions of its members for its support. 
 190. The Dissenter has now a double charge. 191. 
 The great objection of the Dissenter is his supporting an un- 
 scriptural, because an established, Church, 190. 259, 260. 
 A large body of Dissenters hold this opinion, and who look 
 forward to, and desire the time, when the Establishment shall
 
 18 SKI.F.CT COMMITTKE OX THE ASSKSSMKNT 
 
 Rev. Dr. be Overthrown, but who do not think the time yet come. This 
 is the opinion of an eminent Dissenting minister in Birming- 
 ham. 261 ; but not that of the Wesleyans. 262. In Bir- 
 mingham, and in all large towns, there is a class of persons 
 who take up questions of this sort on the strongest democratic 
 grounds ; such persons would be difficult to deal with ; the 
 calm thinking Dissenters would take a right view, 316; but 
 whether in a large public meeting the proposal to exempt 
 Dissenters and tax Churchmen would be carried, is uncertain, 
 it not being known who would attend it. 267. Church- 
 men might vote against church rates, disapproving of rates 
 as at present levied. 271. The object of the rate should 
 be limited, luxuries, e. g, organs, being excluded. 272. In 
 Birmingham, no rate could be obtained for a district church, 
 but in other parishes the battle lost in gross might be 
 won in detail. 27o, District churches are a grievance. 
 275. The power of levying their own rates is absolutely 
 essential. 276. Throwing the burden upon the owners 
 
 would not be received by the Dissenters as a settlement of the 
 question, 253. 277; and therefore should not be tried. 279. 
 The present inconveniences could not be remedied by giving 
 great power to ecclesiastical or civil courts, 280 ; nor would 
 it be favourable to the real interests of the Church. 281. 
 The enforcement of the present law, even in other places than 
 Birmingham, would be productive of evil to the Church of Eng- 
 land. 314. Churchmen would be willing to tax themselves. 
 318. The Clergy are unwilling to exempt Dissenters, 286; 
 but w ithout the exemption plan, the rate is gone, 287 ; they 
 consider it giving a premium to dissent, and stereotyping it in 
 the country, and involving the question of a Church esta- 
 blishment. If the church rate is relinquished from the Dis- 
 senters, the Church would not cease to be a national establish- 
 ment. 2S8. Tithes and church rates stand upon a different 
 footing, one upon law, the other upon a rate. 291. To 
 attack tithes is revolutionary, but this not felt as to church 
 rates. 291. Parishes in which no rate has been irade, 
 ought not to be perpetually exempted, the church rate ought 
 to be dealt with upon one principle. 320. A bonus to 
 parishes for disobeying the law, is an unwise measure ; it is a
 
 AND LEVY OF ClIUUCH RATES. 1.9 
 
 radical error, to deal with that, which the Dissenters make a Rev. Dr. 
 matter of principle, in different ways in different places. o22. 
 Some clergy hold a different view. 323. Nothing but 
 fair objections may be expected to the exemption plan. 325. 
 A compulsory power upon Churchmen would not be inju- 
 rious to the Church. 326. Dissenters being exempted, the 
 law should define the payments out of the church rate, but 
 the rate should not be enforced in the ecclesiastical court. 
 330. The rate should be obligatory. 331. There are 
 objections to rating all persons, and then requiring the Dissen- 
 ters to name the place of worship to which it should be applied. 
 They would object to a compulsory rate for any religious pur- 
 pose. 336. A fabric i*ate would now be opposed. 337. 
 If all Dissenters contributed to the fabric, they might begin to 
 require the use of it. 339. 
 
 The Honourable and Reverend GRANTHAM MUNTON 
 YORKE is called, and examined. 
 
 Incumbent for fifteen years of the church of St. Philip's, Bir- Hon. and 
 mingham, a parish formed out of the parish of Birmingham in Vorke. 
 the reign of Queen Anne. Has been without any church rate 
 for thirteen years. The expense of carrying on the worship 
 is 200/. or 220/. a year. In the thirteen years 4000/. has 
 been laid out upon the church, obtained by begging, 349 : 
 one-tenth of which was given by Mr. Yorke, 351 ; but 7000/. 
 is now required to re-case the extci'ior, which is dangerous, 
 352 ; but the business is hopeless. 355. The influence of 
 the clergyman is diminished if he is constantly begging (351); 
 laymen will not undertake it. Persons are deterred from 
 taking seats if the seats are taxed for the expenses of the 
 church; and the income of the clergy is diminished. 360. 365. 
 379. This is the case of St^ Thomas's. 365. New 
 
 churches are built upon a temporary enthusiasm, but the 
 building has nothing to do with the church rate question. 
 368. 370. The voluntary system depends upon the per- 
 
 B 2
 
 20 SKLECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Hon. and sonul ability of the incumbent. oDO. Evil of collections. 415. 
 
 ^Yorke ^^ ^o Birmingham, the atmosphere is so destructive to 
 public buildings, that the public are more called upon to 
 repair them than in any other place. '395. The clergy and 
 churchwardens have memorialized the Government, praying 
 that other places may not be put in the same condition as 
 ]3irminn;ham. 434. lntelliQ;ent Churchmen in Birmins- 
 
 ham have no strong feeling in favour of the abolition of 
 church rates. 435. The total abolition of church rate 
 
 would make no difference there. 433. The political Dis- 
 senters got up a meeting against that memorial, but it was a 
 failure altogether. 436. A shilling in the pound produces 
 in Birmingham 60,000/. ; one-twelfth would repair all the 
 churches in Birmingham. 404. If added to the poor rate, 
 
 would not be appreciable by Dissenters. 405. The objec- 
 
 tion to church rates in Birmingham is chiefly political ; it 
 originated in the agitation of the Reform Association. 394. 896. 
 As to change in the law, an agitation might be got up any 
 day in Birmingham upon any thing touching the question. 396. 
 But churches might be repaired by a competent body out 
 of poor rate or county rate without any remark or trouble. 
 896. The Dissenters would not object, if it were not named 
 a church rate. 397. The conscientious Dissenter would be 
 glad of an excuse to pay the rate to the fabric, though not 
 for the services (403), and under another name. 899, 400, 401. 
 But the political Dissenters would not. 402. Where the 
 church rate is lost, means should be devised for maintaining 
 the fabrics (423), leaving the congregation to provide for ser- 
 vices (412) ; the church rate should not be attempted to be 
 restored, being odious in such places (425) ; but to do it 
 away when collected, as it is in a large portion of the parishes, 
 would be monstrous ; there can be no excuse for putting it 
 into the pockets of landowners. 423. If Birmingham 
 were divided into separate parishes, some of the difficulty 
 might in some of them be got over ; but in the very poor 
 districts a rate would be very difficult. 408. As to 
 exempting persons stating themselves to be Dissenters, 
 it would be a thousand pities to draw the distinct lino 
 between the Church and Dissent (and to cut off' those,
 
 AND LEVY OF CUL'UCH UATKS. 21 
 
 who at a future day may come back, 418). Many Hon. and 
 Churchmen would avoid the church rate by saying they had ^ yo^g^ ' 
 scruples. 416. It would be a pecuniary premium upon 
 
 declaration of dissent. 417. Many, particularly AVesleyans, 
 would object to declare themselves Dissenters. 420.- Many 
 Dissenters use the offices of the Church ; to mark them off 
 would be impolitic (421 ), and thus prevent their returning to 
 the Church. 422. Churchmen would feel it unjust that 
 other properties should be exempted, and their own charged. 
 426. The objection of the Dissenters is not right (42S), 
 because it is a rate upon property. 431. As to Edg- 
 
 baston, church rates have been collected tlie last two 
 or three years. A rate was then assessed, to be col- 
 lected only from those who would pay it ; it did well at 
 first, then fell off, and will not be attempted again. 440. 443. 
 The plan was tried for the sake of peace, to please a small 
 knot of Dissenters and Quakers. Edgbaston contains the 
 most opulent persons connected with Birmingham. 445. 
 The vestry of the whole parish of Birmingham is the greatest 
 (>vil, and should be abolished. 
 
 The Right Honourable CHARLES EARL OF ROMNEY, 
 a Member of the Committee, is examined. 
 
 Church rate was refused at Maidstone in 1853, and has Eml of 
 ceased to be collected. Li 1853 there was a great majority ^"'""®y- 
 against the rate. 500 persons voted whose votes were 
 doubtful ; had they not voted the majority would have been 
 in favour of the rate. The men that came and raised oppo- 
 sition to the rate were not bond fide Dissenters, but political 
 Dissenters. 472, In all large parishes if a struggle arises 
 respecting church rate, it is uniformly a question of political 
 parties. 483. Churches have been built in Maidstone since 
 1853 by subscription. The church rate is now })rovided by 
 subscriptions from Lord Romncy and his tenants (464), but 
 other persons sit in tho. church, and will not contribute.
 
 22 SKLECT COMMITTEE ON' J HE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Earl of 466. The money is every year got with greater difficulty. 
 Romney. ^^j rpj^^ ^^^^ would have been obtained in Lord lloinney''s 
 district, but for persons coming from another district and 
 swamping them. 467. If the districts were charged with 
 their own I'ates, and relieved from rates for the mother 
 church, this evil would be avoided. 470. It is felt as a 
 hardship in a new district to pay pew rents, and also rates for 
 the mother church. 471. A tenant takes into account the 
 amount of his church rate (468), and the payment of church 
 rates out of the national funds would be a relief to the agri- 
 cultural interest. 469. It is a great hardship, when a man 
 voluntarily charges his property with the amount of church 
 rate, and finds that other people have got their property 
 exempted by bringing down men to vote against the rate, 
 and subscribing themselves nothing afterwards. 475. If 
 owners of land were to be charged with the fabric, and 
 occupiers with the expense of the services, at the end of five 
 years the churches could not be kept for the use of the 
 Church alone, 476 ; but there would be no objection to 
 a fabric rate from which Dissenters were exempted. 477. 
 Landlords do not contribute as landlords, but, as members 
 of the Church, assist in building and repairing. 478. Per- 
 sons would not say they were Dissenters to avoid the rate. 
 490. The exempting Nonconformists would restore an 
 
 amended state of the law in Maidstone ; whilst Churchmen 
 would pay readily. 489. The poor attend the popular 
 
 preacher, Churchman or Dissenter ; how far a man is a Dis- 
 senter is already known. 488. Many people were in 
 favour of the rate and think it quite right ; but when the 
 compulsion ceased, they were not inclined to adopt any other 
 mode. 491. The asking subscriptions, whether for church 
 or school, is a most disagreeable duty ; has a bad effect upon 
 the Church generally; incessant and wearisome, there is 
 great difficulty in keeping up schools. SOL
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH RATES. 23 
 
 MONDAY, JULY IS, 1859. 
 
 CHARLES HOLT BRACEBRIDGE, Esquire, called in, 
 and examined. 
 
 Churchwarden of Atherstone, a township of Mancetter, Charles 
 with a population of 4000, three-sevenths of which are JJ^J*^ ^""^f ■ 
 Dissenters, having seven chapels belonging to five bodies 
 of Dissenters. The church seats 1200, and is full. 335. 
 The chapels 2000, but not filled. 579. 505—514. The 
 majority was against a rate, but they permitted the mino- 
 rity to carry a rate, 513; but it was a fabric rate alone, 
 made by the churchwardens in due legal form, of twopence 
 in the pound ; it was by agreement a compulsory rate. 580. 
 The vote for the fabric was an unanimous vote. The majority 
 refused a four-penny rate for general expenses, but let it pass 
 that year, on the understanding that the next year it should 
 be twopence for the fabric alone. 526, The majoi-ity never 
 afterwards opposed, they understood that the agreement was 
 made, two gentlemen were appointed churchwardens, who 
 were bound in honour to carry it out. 534. The rate 
 was for the sustenance of the fabric (the bell and the clock 
 included), sweeping roof, and church wall. 539. The 
 
 money for the services, &c., has been obtained for three 
 years by a voluntary rate or subscription — 26*. 6d. a sitting, 
 though some gave more. 516 — 519. The rate for the 
 fabric was 43^. 16s., reduced by excused houses to 35/. 
 There are no pew rents in Atherstone, churchwardens ap- 
 pi'opriate the seats. Rates were never refused in Atherstone, 
 but it was an understanding that the future rating should 
 depend on the decision in the Braintree case. 541, 542. 
 Dissenters were present when these rates were voted, but 
 there was the influence of certain squires and gentlemen. 545, 
 Atherstone is more than at peace, heartily satisfied, 548 ; 
 and will remain so. 550. If church rates were abolished, 
 a larger voluntary subscription would be paid, and there 
 would bo a diminution in the general charities. 552. In 
 Atherstone voluntary contributions would be got for the re-
 
 bridge, Esq. 
 
 24 SELL.CT COiMMITTKE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Charles pair of thc fabric, the church having been lately built, and the 
 Holt Brace- jjurdcn of repair not being heavy. 553. In towns the 
 money could be raised, but in the country there would be 
 great difficulty. 554. 557. The Dissenters of Atherstone 
 would not give voluntary contributions to the fabric, though 
 some have subscribed to the building of the church. 558. 
 Four-sevenths of the people, a majority, are Churchmen, 
 but they would not come to the vestry or support the rate ; 
 hence the majority against the rate. 578, The chapels 
 altogether have cost 6750^., the church worth 7000i^. 579. 
 The Dissenters maintained a religious feeling, when the 
 Church was in a very low state. 580. The Dissenters are 
 all supposed to pay. The church has one-third of it free. 
 583, 584. 586. Mancetter is a rural parish in which 
 
 there is no difficulty in making rates. Atherstone, by Act 
 of Parliament of Charles II., pays two- thirds of the poor 
 rate to Mancetter, but they now refuse to pay to Mancetter 
 in that proportion for church rate. Had an attempt been 
 made to make a rate at Mancetter to include Atherstone, 
 Atherstone would have appeared in the vestry at Mancetter, 
 and have had it all their own way. 575. Atherstone is a 
 fair specimen of towns, except that there are in it two 
 gentlemen who have influence. Mr. Bracebridge, who sup- 
 ports a four-penny rate ; Mr. Dugdale, who supports the 
 two-penny, thus the influence is nullified. If the law limited 
 church rates to the fabric, nearly all the objections of Dis- 
 senters would be removed (except in places where church 
 rates have not been made for seven or ten years, and in 
 Birmingham where property has been sold repeatedly with- 
 out any church rate upon it, 595), 601, 604; but the 
 amount of the rate should be defined by some authorized per- 
 son, an Architect appointed by the Archdeacon with appeal to 
 (Quarter Sessions. 597 — 599. In Birmingham a fabric rate 
 might be established, if confined to Churchmen. 603. In 
 
 all parishes which have not paid rates for a certain number 
 of years the rate should be extinguished. The law should 
 be prospective as well as retrospective, because though the 
 rate is compulsory, the amount is voluntary. 614. If 
 Dissenters contributed to a fabric, they would not be satisfied,
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH RATES. 25 
 
 but if taxed it would be on the ground of civil advantages. Cliailes 
 617. A rate upon Churchmen alone might be collected in b^,"/gg_^^'sq' 
 Birmingham, though the advantage of the scheme does not 
 appear. 625. A de facto Churchman would pay the rate, 
 but those who were not, as many thousands in Birmingham 
 are, would not. 627. Dissenters would not feel it to be a 
 hardship to obtain exemption by signing a declaration. 629. 
 Upon a general settlement of the question (632), the signa- 
 ture should be countersigned by their own minister. 633. 
 The small tenement act should be applied to church rates, 
 throwing the payment upon the landlord. All tenants 
 should be allowed to recover the church rate from their 
 landlords. 637. Quite practicable in large towns. 639. 
 The landlord is he who receives the rent. 643. Rates 
 should not be abolished entirely in those places where they 
 have not been levied for several years. Dissenters being re- 
 lieved, there can be no objection to making Churchmen pay. 
 Q^Q. The rate should be thrown upon the landlord. 6i7. 
 The occupier being a Churchman he must pay, though his 
 landlord be a Dissenter. 652. The difficulty of the rate 
 falling upon the Dissenter landlord not to be got over. 650. 
 
 Mr. SAMUEL MORLEY, called in, and examined. 
 
 An Independent. Objects to church rates on the conscien- Mr. Samuel 
 tious ground of an objection to forced contributions to re- ^^ ^^' 
 ligious worship. QoQ. The cause of religion is injured by 
 forced contribution for its support. As a Dissenter this is 
 the ground to be taken. The political ground of objection is, 
 that the less governments have to do with such matters the 
 better ; their interference has always been dangerous to the 
 cause of liberty ; the cause of freedom is served, by keeping a 
 government away from that kind of action, and from having 
 any thing to do with religious opinion. 659. It is for the 
 benefit not only of the Independents, but for the community at 
 large, that all compulsory payments should be done away.
 
 26 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Mr. Samuel 660. There should be no State religion. The progress 
 Morley. jj^ade by the Church of England during the last ten years 
 shows that religion would be promoted by removing the hin- 
 drance of compulsory payments. 661. If Dissenters were 
 relieved from church rates, their efforts would be as vigorous 
 as before to establish the principle of general exemption, on 
 the ground of injury to religion. 662. If actuated by hos- 
 tility to the Church one would not abolish church rates ; but 
 they are a sore, the removal of which would be an universal 
 benefit. 663. These are the feelings of a large body of the 
 Nonconformists, who are misrepresented, when it is said that 
 their feelings are more political than religious. There is a 
 deep religious conviction in those who are most influential in 
 these matters. 664). Opposition to the Church is not the 
 basis of much of the influence brought to bear amongst Dis- 
 senters. 694. The great object is to separate Religion from 
 the slightest connexion with the State; 799. State in- 
 fluence and magisterial power — force as opposed to principle 
 — has acted deleteriously on the cause of religion. Where 
 that force has been repudiated, in places connected with the 
 Church of England, there has been a greater exhibition of 
 religious principle. 698. Compulsory payments have a 
 
 tendency to keep up a greater line of demarcation between 
 serious Churchmen and Dissenters, which have disappeared, 
 when these causes of irritation have been removed. Dr. 
 Hook repudiated forced contributions, and left Leeds I'e- 
 spected by Dissenters as much as by Churchmen. 736. 
 The separation of Church and State is an object which a 
 number of earnest men have set before themselves ; that one 
 object is.a religious one. There are dissenting ministei'S of 
 repute, who have a deep conviction that the cause of religion 
 would be promoted by it. 753. Not only church rates, but 
 the connexion with the State is injurious to religion. 755. 
 The church rate should be got rid of as a fruitful source 
 of irritation, but there are other views held by not a few, with 
 which they seek to indoctrinate public opinion. 756. A 
 society has been originated for the separation of Church and 
 State, consisting of Protestant Dissenters. 848. Mr. 
 
 Morley 's name is printed as one of the committee. Its object
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH RATES. 27 
 
 is the liberation of the Church of England and Ireland, and Mr. Samuel 
 the Church of Scotland, from all State control. 760. The 
 removal of legislative action would give spiritual life in the 
 place of mere officialism. 7G1. The question of church 
 
 rates not the only hindrance to the designs of the society. 
 762. The Church would be stronger by separation : Dis- 
 senters would be more likely to join the Church. 708. 774. 
 The question of church rates not so much a grievance to be 
 removed, as a great religious question to be carried out. 778. 
 A very large proportion of the Independents have this feel- 
 ing ; but a very large portion of the people, in the country, 
 do not entertain these opinions, and very few members of the 
 Establishment. 780, 781. The voluntary principle ought 
 to permeate and actuate religion in every thing, and without 
 it, it will not have the vigour it ought to have in this country. 
 791, 92. The Dissenters would not be satisfied by relief 
 from maintaining the fabric of the church. If a Bill were 
 brought into Parliament to charge Churchmen with the sup- 
 port of their own places of worship, on the morrow an oppo- 
 sition would be commenced which would be fatal to the 
 measure, 797 ; though possibly there nn'ght not be a very 
 large Church element in the opposition. 748. Churchmen 
 ought not to be compulsorily called upon to support their own 
 churches. 800. The Dissenter feels a religious difficulty 
 in the matter, and the passing an Act of Parliament to make 
 Churchmen repair their churches compromises him as much 
 as the Churchman. Every citizen is compromised by the 
 character of the legislation of a country. 802. The Dis- 
 senters have influenced public opinion so much, that no go- 
 vernment can stand, which does not settle the question. Not 
 among Dissenters only, but among other bodies, who have 
 influence with the constituencies, there is a determination 
 which will ultimately settle the question, and we are on the 
 eve of a settlement of it in a way which, we trust, may be 
 most conducive to religion. 837. The existence of a govern- 
 ment, which should propose that Churchmen should rate them- 
 selves, would probably not be imperilled, but every consti- 
 tuency has a body, which represents these views. The Liber- 
 ation Society has correspondence in every constituency ; there
 
 28 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Mr. Samuel is CO- operation with it, not merely in behalf of mere noisy 
 "'" ^^' talkers, but of earnest thoughtful persons in every constituency 
 and moderately large town ; and there is a course of action, 
 which candidates understand perfectly well, and which is found 
 to be operative on this particular question. 842. The power 
 of the House of Commons to pass a law for Churchmen to 
 rate themselves is very doubtful : that kind of settlement would 
 excite an amount of opposition, which would occasion some 
 difficulty ; the Dissenters would endeavour again to obtain the 
 repeal of such a law. They would rather have the question re- 
 main as it now is, than have it so dealt with. 843. There 
 would be a great necessity for caution in a total abolition of 
 church rates, with reference to payment of the clergy in some 
 places. The change requires mature thought, and time for the 
 arrangements. 852-3. The Society sometimes sends down 
 individuals into the different parishes in the country, but not 
 frequently, it has corresponding members and local committees, 
 and suggests in publications the modes of resisting church 
 rates. 844, 84/5. The church rate question is not a dissent- 
 ing question only, but affects four or five thousand district 
 churches in the kingdom. 820. These objections might be 
 removed by allowing the districts to maintain their own 
 churches. 794, 795. When several Dissenters a few years 
 since proposed that Dissenters, who contributed to their own 
 places of worship, should be exempted from church rates ; the 
 proposal was scouted by a large proportion of those to whom 
 it was submitted. In many places, the cessation of the rate 
 has resulted from large co-operation by Churchmen. 822. 
 The continuance of church rates in country parishes, and dis- 
 continuing them, when they have practically ceased, docs not 
 meet the objection of Dissenters ; but only of a very small 
 minority of them, 823, 824. The Dissenters feel great diffi- 
 culty about the rural districts, one must be quite aware of 
 the difficulty of sustaining fabrics in country parishes ; there 
 is also a difficulty in requiring Churchmen to abolish church 
 rates in country parishes, when they work practically well, and 
 are levied without difficulty. 825. If country parishes were 
 exempted from the abolition, the fact that the law of church rate 
 remains, would still be a difficulty felt by the Dissenters. 820*.
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH RATES. 29 
 
 Though only five hundred parishes out of twelve thousand Mr. Samuel 
 object to church rates, so that it is said to be unreasonable to ^^""^y- 
 insist upon those who are willing to pay them giving them 
 up, yet with reference to the population, the proportion is 
 much larger, and though the opposition may be successful only 
 in five hundred places, yet in many hundreds of places, on the 
 part of a small minority of Dissenters, a continual irritation is 
 kept up. 829-31. One would not feel the slightest objection 
 to an Act of Parliament, but would gratefully feel it as a mode 
 of meeting the question, which should enable parties locally to 
 appropriate money for the fabric of their church, to be assisted 
 from some general fund, either through the Ecclesiastical 
 Commissioners, or by endowments in any other shape. 846, 
 847. Endowments formed by private beneficence, for in- 
 stance, money put in trust for the Church of England by any 
 one, ought to be held sacred. 726. 734. The property of 
 the great dissenting body depends upon this principle. 877. 
 In the census of 185 J, the persons occupying sittings in 
 dissenting chapels equalled or exceeded those of the Esta- 
 blished Church. 782. 
 
 THURSDAY, JULY 21, 1859. 
 
 THOMAS ALCOCK, Esquire, a Member of the House of 
 Commons, attending by permission of that House, called in, 
 and examined. 
 
 Resident at Kingswood, in the parish of Ewell, containing Tliomas 
 nearly 2000 persons, not particularly many Dissenters in it. „ ^^*^^*^]^t'p 
 857. There was opposition to church rate twenty-three 
 years ago, when a district church was built at Kingswood 
 (for a population of 250, 866), Mr. Alcock''s residence. 858. 
 Kingswood is five miles from Ewell. It was thought 
 hard to pay church rates to Ewell without the smallest 
 advantage. Attention was directed to the rates at Ewell ; 
 they were found high, and many items in them objectionable. 
 They amounted to 200^. or 300/, a year. They included
 
 30 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Thomas organist, vestry clerk, warming, alteration of pews, clock, 
 Esq., M.'p. fii*e-cngine, &e., all of which were considered unfair and 
 illegal, and hard upon those who had built their own church, 
 and kept it in repair, and paid the expenses of it. The 
 })arish went to law, but at last gave way. The extra things 
 were reduced, the matter was amicably settled, for twenty 
 years the reduced rates were paid, but now, being in 
 existence twenty years, exemption is claimed, and for three 
 or four years no rates to Ewell have been paid. 8-59. No 
 rate is levied at Kingswood ; Mr. Alcock pays all the 
 expenses, the chief part being his property. The rates upon 
 Kingswood to Ewell when I'educed were paid by Mr. Alcock. 
 872. Mr. Alcock brought forward a Bill in the House of 
 Commons of a permissive character, ST'l, 875, as follows : 
 that certain Commissioners should ascertain the amount of 
 church rate expenditure for an average number of years, and 
 allow the parish to provide a permanent fund of the amount 
 fixed by the Commissioners, and that the Commissioners should 
 discharge the parish or district for ever from church rates. 
 
 876. The Commissioners in ascertaining the past ex- 
 penditure were to have power to raise or reduce the amount 
 of the permanent fund, according to the particulars of the case. 
 
 877. The endowment fund might be managed by the 
 ministers and churchwardens. Dissenters who would fight 
 against being compelled to pay sixpence, would be happy, in 
 many cases, to contribute to such a fund, to make peace and 
 terminate litigation. 880. Mr. A. would not leave the law 
 in its present condition, being in favour of total abolition ; but 
 if that is not likely to be carried into effect, Mr. A.'s scheme 
 would be a great improvement of the present system. 882. 
 The dissenting owner would subscribe for the sake of peace ; 
 an owner might now endow a church, but he would not get a 
 discharge from church rate. 883. This plan would be 
 hopeless in great towns ; the Dissenters would not then 
 come forward, but they would do so in rural parishes. 885. 
 The plan might be appended to a Bill for enforcing church 
 i-ate, but not to a Bill for the abolition of it. 887. The 
 annual meeting of the vestry should be got rid of (921); if the 
 matter be settled on a permanent system, that odious sort of
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH HATES. 31 
 
 meeting is got rid of for ever ; people may be expected to Thomas 
 come forward handsomely and boldly for once in their lives, j^ '^°m'.?. 
 892. An annual vestry for raising money is objectionable, 
 but not one for spending it. 900. Dissenters would not 
 interfere, it would be such an ungenerous thing to do so. 901. 
 In Mr. A.'s parish, in Lincolnshire, Theddlethorpe, there are 
 permanent funds in which Dissenters do not interfere. 903. 
 That permanent fund produces 151., and they raise 15/. more. 
 904. Improper expenses have been paid out of the church 
 rate ; twenty years ago, half the church rates, then talked of 
 as 550,000?. rested upon abuse ; it is now only 250,000?. 
 The opposition to church rates been greatly in consequence 
 of gross abuses being foisted on those rates. 927. A large 
 proportion of the opposition might be removed if a pro- 
 per and reasonable rate were asked for. 928. The diffi- 
 culty would have been obviated if a few years ago church 
 rates could have been made as the highway rate, there 
 being a competent authority to object to improper items ; 
 but the time is gone by when such modifications would make 
 the church rate generally satisfactory. 931. Dissenters are 
 the chief objectors to church rates, but it would not do to 
 exempt them ; farmers would object to paying the proportion 
 due from the Dissenters ; many do not like paying at all. 936. 
 The Dissenters would not declare themselves Dissenters, 
 but would defy being charged to the rate, and stand upon 
 their rights. 939. The Dissenters complain of being called 
 to support a church to which they do not conform, 940 ; and 
 the exempting them would, in a great measure, remove every 
 reasonable ground of complaint ; and yet, as a general rule, it 
 would not answer. 941. 
 
 The Right Honourable THOMAS HENRY SUTTON 
 SOTHERON ESTCOURT, a Member of the House of 
 Commons, attending by permission of that House, called 
 in, and examined. 
 
 The church rate question is a great impediment to the com- 
 fort of Churchmen and the course of public business. 942.
 
 32 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Right Hon. Cliurch rate is a sum for the repair of churches and other cus- 
 
 X H S S • 
 
 Estcomt. tomary charges raised by the voluntary contribution of the 
 inhabitants. There is no extrinsic power to determine the 
 amount or to compel payment ; it does not exist unless the 
 rate-payers determine to levy it, and is therefore qua parish a 
 voluntary contribution. It would be best for the country, that 
 the sum should be annually voted, rather than that a sum 
 which is uncertain and variable, should be commuted for a 
 permanent fund. But the payment or collection of church 
 rates is objected to, and it assumes a question of religious 
 toleration or religious persecution. My own aversion and that 
 of the English to even the appearance of religious persecution 
 is so great, that one becomes quite willing, that any person 
 who can assign that reason for non-payment of church rate 
 shall be exempt, and accordingly to exempt Dissenters or 
 those who profess any religious scruples from the payment. 
 The real difficulty is, that arrangements cannot be made for 
 this purpose without a certain amount of injury to the in- 
 dividuals and to the Church. The Dissenter will not consent 
 to make a declaration of religious scruple and to be ticketed. 
 The Church is injured by your driving out of the category of 
 Churchmen in the particular parish all those to whom the 
 exemption is applied. I do not believe that the Dis- 
 senters desire to be excluded formally from the Church ; many 
 contemplate the possibility of falling back into the ranks of 
 the Church. They are married and buried in the Church, 
 and would not like to stamp themselves as excommunicated 
 and separated from the Church. You must, therefore, in the 
 first place, exempt all who have any religious or other objec- 
 tion ; and the point to arrive at is, to ascertain before the 
 meeting for making a rate, who are to be exempted. You 
 should avoid calling together persons to vote an assessment, 
 who have declared, that they intend to object to it. The 
 objection to this exemption is, that all property is acquired 
 subject to a liability to church rate, and that the relieving one, 
 throws a greater burden upon those who pay. The objection 
 would be good, if church rate were identical in its nature with 
 other parochial rates ; but since it does not exist, unless it is 
 voted, and therefore the contribution is purely voluntary (the
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH KATKS. 83 
 
 meeting is purely voluntary), there is no great objection in Ri^^ht Hon. 
 principle to dealing with this case, individually, instead of '^■^^- ^\^- 
 parochially. The parish is not assessable, unless it chooses 
 voluntarily to assess itself. The solution of the question is to 
 be found, in dealing with the church rate as an individual, and 
 not a parochial assessment ; and we arrive at this, that any 
 person who objects, shall not be liable, and that his objection 
 shall be stated prior to the meeting. The vestry will then 
 have to determine, whether the repair ought to be incurred, 
 and to what amount the persons present shall contribute. 
 The scheme is in a rough shape, but the essence of it is this, — 
 for political reasons it is indispensable, that church rates on 
 their present footing should be abolished ; but a church repair 
 fund should be raised every year. The churchwardens are to 
 make an estimate of the expenses for the following items. 972. 
 (Possibly the enumeration of them may be improved.) 1. 
 Repair of the fabric. 2. Inclosurc of the churchyard. 3. 
 Keeping church and yard clean. 4. Provision for services. 
 5. Fees lawfully payable. The statement of expenses and 
 amount to be fixed to the church door. No rate to be raised 
 in any year exceeding a certain sum. The amount now raised 
 is equivalent to Id. in the pound, but since one-half at least 
 of the present contributors may for some reason or other 
 abstain, 2d. will be required ; but since there ought to be a 
 margin, 3^/. should be the sum, which should not be exceeded. 
 943. The notice being placed on the church door, a paper 
 is to be left at the house of every rate-payer, stating the sum 
 required, with two columns for assent and dissent. The 
 assenting parties would be the only persons capable of attend- 
 ing the meeting : they would grant either the full aniount or 
 not, of the churchwardens"' estimate ; and some easy legal 
 power (949— 9o3) should be given of obtaining the amount 
 from every one, who had not signified his dissent, provided it 
 did not exceed 3c?. in the pound. The dissenting parties should 
 be declared incapable of occupying any seat in the church 
 during the year, or of having any voice in the management of the 
 church. Every ecclesiastical district to be rated as a separate 
 parish, and rates for the mother church must be raised within 
 the district assigned to the mother church. 944. The election 
 
 c
 
 u4 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Right Hon. of churchwardens should remain with the vestry at large, to avoid 
 Estcourt drawing a discriminating line between Churchmen and Dis- 
 senters. 945 ; but it would be reasonable, that the churchwarden 
 should be one who pays his quota. The maintaining thevoluntai-y 
 principle is better than making a fixed charge upon property ; 
 no scheme of commutation including all classes of property 
 would be satisfactory now. 947. The town and country 
 parishes should be all upon the same system. 918. The 
 maintenance of the present system has become more and more 
 difficult, though the feeling in the country has not grown in 
 proportion to the feeling within the walls of Parliament. In 
 the last fifteen years tlie question of church rates has become 
 a source of political capital ; but we have no right to infer 
 that the feelings of the people of England correspond with 
 the noise which is made in both Houses of Parliament on the 
 subject. 958. The decision of the Braintree case has led 
 to the church rate being now considered only as a voluntaiy 
 contribution. 960. In the large towns where church rates 
 have ceased, it would not be practicable or expedient to 
 recover the collection, or to make it compulsory. If under 
 the plan proposed every rate-payer objected, no rate could be 
 raised ; but if a change took place in the opinion of the 
 inhabitants, even at the end of twenty years, a majority or 
 even the whole of the parishioners might think it desirable to 
 raise so small a .sum as 3d. in the pound ; and they might do 
 this without disturbing the ordinary habits of the place. 962. 
 To attempt to make church rates compulsory would be 
 unwise. Parliament would not adopt such a plan, and it 
 would be prejudicial to the Cliurch. 9 ("4. It is remarkable 
 how little increase there appears to be in the objections to 
 the payment of rates. The great mass of the rural parishes 
 desire nothing more than to be let alone. 965. AMietlier 
 if matters were left as they now are, the Church would be in a 
 worse condition one cannot tell, but it is discreditable that 
 Parliament should have every year different Bills brought in, 
 and the whole matter ripped up, without a more decided 
 attempt to settle it. 974. Any great expenditure ought not 
 to be put upon the annual rate, but provided for by the 
 contributions of the well disposed, and of the owners. 978.
 
 AXn I,EV\ OF CHURCH RATES. 35 
 
 Separate parishes ought not to pay a larger rate than the Right Hon. 
 average rate for all England, say S(/. 980. '?>d. paid u^i- "^^ ^j^^^^^- 
 versally would raise three times the sum which has been raised 
 in the last seven years. 994. The rate would be a voluntary 
 rate. 992. Conceives that, since the decision of the Lords 
 in the Braintree case, church rates have been virtually at 
 an end. 984. Has heard that parties obstructing a church 
 rate are punishable for doing so. 985. And is aware 
 
 that, so late as 1842, such persons have been pi'oceeded 
 against in the ecclesiastical courts, 987 ; and has heard that 
 this was, in fact, one reason why the Loi'ds decided that the 
 minority could not make a rate, namely, because the majority 
 might be punished for not concurring, 986 ; but does not 
 think this circumstance affords much remedy, because eccle- 
 siastical discipline has not been strongly enforced for 400 
 years. 987. The objection to admitting Dissenters to claim 
 
 exemption as Dissenters is met, by allowing every one who ob- 
 jects to the rate to be exempted. 1009. Many Churchmen 
 would object, but in a reasonable time they would be ashamed 
 of so doing ; but if not, it is better that they should not be com- 
 pelled to pay. On the other hand many Dissenters would no 
 longer object, there being a maximum fixed, and the objects 
 of the rate being fixed by law. 1010. It is not dosii-able 
 
 to draw a line of demarcation between Dissenters and 
 Churchmen ; the disability which might be the consequence 
 of non-contributino; the rate should be the same whether the 
 objectors were Dissenter or Churchman, 1015 ; he should 
 have no seat in church, nor any voice in vestry, respecting 
 the expenses of the church. 10] 6. The repair of the 
 
 church ought to be an incident to which all property is liable, 
 but being content to exempt those who have a religious 
 objection, you cannot draw the line of religious exemption 
 without permitting other persons who object for other reasons 
 being included in the exemption. 1026. The effect of 
 a simple and unconditional abolition of church rates would 
 be that of flogging the willing horse ; there would be no fair- 
 ness of proportion in raising money for the maintenance of 
 the churches, 1030 ; the clergy would make great exertion, 
 but the necessity of begging for the repairs ought not to 
 
 c 2
 
 36 SEI.KCr COMMITTEK OX THK ASSESSMENT 
 
 Right Hon. be laid upon them, it would seriously interfere with their 
 '^^^^;^^i.^* pastoral duties. 1032. The only party who would have a 
 right to object to this plan is the Churchman. If the Dis- 
 senter is permitted to avoid the rate, and not be placed in an 
 offensive position, he can have no further ground for inter- 
 fering in the matter. 1029. 
 
 The Venerable ARCHDEACON SANDFORD, Archdeacon 
 of Coventry, called in, and examined. 
 
 Archdeacon The churches of the archdeaconry are in an improved 
 state in the last nine years, but the churches of Birmingham 
 are going to decay. Their state is conclusive as to the 
 efficiency of the voluntary system. If any clergy could up- 
 hold their churches under it, the clergy of Birmingham 
 could. The great difficulty of collecting a rate at Birming- 
 ham arises from the rate being levied at the mother church 
 for the whole town. Some of the Birmingham clergy believe 
 that even now, after twenty-five years'" suspension, they could 
 obtain a rate for their own districts. At Coventry, the parish 
 of St. MichaeFs has a rate confined to the sustentation of the 
 fabric. The Dissenters do not object to contributing to it. 
 The not allowing district churches to make their own rate 
 operates injuriously in towns. At Nuneaton the making 
 rates in districts has been successful. In one district 
 there are many Dissenters, but the rate was unanimously 
 voted. 1048. Though in individual instances Dissenters 
 do not object to a fabric rate, the confining the rate to the 
 fabric would not remove the difficulty. Influential Dissenters 
 have stated that this would not satisfy them. Some have 
 said. Nothing of this sort would satisfy us, unless we had the 
 use of the fabric. 1090. And the political Dissenters de- 
 clare their object to be the separation of the Church from the 
 State. 1044, 1045. In the rural parishes of the arch- 
 deaconry of Coventry there has been no refusal of rate. 1047. 
 In the archdeaconry of Bristol, of 200 parishes, nine re-
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH UATES. 37 
 
 fused rates, but in the year after five of them consented to Archdeacon 
 the rate. 1048. In parishes where the rates are paid there '*'" °'^ ' 
 are generally most voluntary contributions. 1050, 1051. In 
 one parish where there is opposition to church rates, it is 
 found exceedingly difficult to get voluntary contributions. If 
 the rates were abolished, the sustentation of the fabric would 
 devolve upon the clergy. 1050. The farmer does not like 
 putting his hand into his pocket, but he pays the rate because 
 it is the law. 1053. At St. Thomas, Birmingham, the 
 voluntary contributions which used to maintain the fabric are 
 in a great measure suspended ; the wealthier seat-holders are 
 moving away, and the putting a pew rent on the seats would 
 drive the people away. 1059. The rate might possibly be 
 limited to the fabric in the case of towns where no rate has 
 been levied for seven years. This might meet the impos- 
 sibility of levying a compulsory rate in such a place as 
 Birmingham. But the Nonconformists should not as a body 
 be exonerated from rates. It would be a premium to dissent, 
 and many who are now nominally of our communion would 
 cease to be so, having professed nonconformity. IOCS. The 
 establishing a voluntary rate, as recommended by Mr. Est- 
 court, would be preferable to ticketing Dissenters. 1077. 
 It would for a time succeed, and might possibly provide a 
 sufficient amount in the event of church rates being abolished 
 throughout the country. 1070. It would be preferable to 
 
 exonerate recalcitrating parishes, such as Birmingham, but to 
 retain the rate in those parishes which have had a disposition 
 to retain it. 1071. It would be an improvement in the law 
 to levy the rate on the owner, and not upon the occupier. 
 1094. The parochial strife would cease. There is such an 
 overwhelming preponderance of Church owners in the arch- 
 deaconry of Coventry that the few Dissenters who, as owners, 
 would be liable, would be an uninfluential minority. I believe 
 that if the occupier were allowed to deduct his church rate, 
 the opposition would subside in time. A great many persons 
 are turning to a better mind in respect of church rates. 1075. 
 The failure of the meeting at Birmingham to protest against 
 the memorial to Loid Derby shows that there is much less 
 feeling against the rate on the part of the community. It
 
 38 SELECT COMMITTEE OX THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Archdeacon was an uninfluential meeting. Religious-minded Dissenters 
 .an or . ^^ ^^^^ ^^ mucli object to the rate (1089), but the objection 
 has been got up as a pohtical cry, and it acts upon the repre- 
 sentation of cities and towns. 1088. As to the unwilling- 
 ness of Churchmen to pay church rates, the case is this, that 
 many are influenced by the vicinity of Dissenters ; they do 
 not like to live at variance with their neighbours, and they 
 swell the majority, because they do not like to offend their 
 dissenting brother. 1090. Some have a liberal feeling, 
 
 some are actuated by political motives, and by a wish to 
 curry favour with their constituents. 1092. Dissenters 
 object because they wish to pull down the Established Church, 
 and to reduce it to the level of the sects. 1091. 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 22, 1859. 
 
 The Reverend JOSHUA WILLIAM BROOKS, Vicar of 
 Nottingham, is called in, and examined. 
 
 ReT.Joshua VicAU of St. Mary's, Nottingham, for fifteen years. There 
 Brooks. Ii^s been no church rate since 183o. The church was shut 
 up when Mr. Brooks became incumbent ; it was in a dilapi- 
 dated state, and people were afraid to go to church. In 
 J 843 an attempt was made to obtain an eighteen-penny rate ; 
 there was a majority of 784 against it : but a six-penny rate 
 might probably have been carried. 1100. Since then 9o00?. 
 has been raised by voluntary contribution for the repair of 
 the church. 1106. Of late years the Church has made a 
 considerable advance — several Dissenters have joined the 
 Church. 1112. There is a growing opinion in favour of 
 keeping up the churches by rates. 1118. The extreme party 
 among the Dissenters in Nottingham are a small section, but 
 they make the most noise. 1120. They are chiefly Baptist 
 Dissenters. 1124. It would be difficult now to get 1500/. 
 for the repair of the north transept. The church is a mother 
 church in the part of the town which is abandoned by 
 residents, and is like the city of London ; the gentlemen have
 
 AND LEVY OF CHUllCH UATKS. 39 
 
 their own churches where they reside, and do not feel inter- Rev. Joshua 
 ested in the support of the mother church. 1139. The Brooks, 
 congregation is principally poor, 1 1 28. The great mass of 
 Dissenters would be satisfied with exemption from church 
 rates, 1183; but a certain small section which is opposed to 
 the Establishment would not. 1153. They look upon the 
 abolition of church rates as a step towards the destruction of 
 the Establishment, 1154; though they do not seek the 
 overthrow of the Church as a religious community. 1155. 
 Tliey are jealous of the predominance of the Church, and do 
 not like one section of the Church to be in a prominent posi- 
 tion, and to be supported by the State. 1155. A very 
 large class of Dissenters would be content with exemption 
 from church rates, and would not object to be designated as 
 Dissenters. They are not ashamed of the term. 1159. Very 
 few have a conscientious objection; the majority of Dis- 
 senters are not against church rates. 1161. They are gene- 
 rally disposed to support the Church, and feel the necessity of 
 some Establishment in the country for the maintenance of 
 religion, J 1 62 ; but though a large proportion of Dissenters in 
 Nottingham are willing to support church rates, to make a rate 
 would be impossible. There are 7000 houses rated at 61. a year. 
 They were all excused church rate in former times, but never- 
 theless they would vote against it. 11 72. A rate might be 
 made, but it would lead to exasperation. At present the 
 Church is becoming popular among the working classes. 1 1 73. 
 In 1843, Churchmen did not vote against the rate, but they did 
 not come up to support it. It would be an improvement in 
 the law, if the occupier could recover the rate from the owner, 
 and remove a great deal of opposition and ill-feeling. 1 1 78. 
 Each district should support its own church, and not be called 
 upon for the mother church. 1180. This would relieve 
 the difficulty. 1187. The chief proprietors of lands in 
 Nottingham are the corporation, in which dissent predomi- 
 nates, so that it would be distasteful to them, if the church 
 rate was thrown upon them. 1202. ihit the rate being 
 thrown upon the owner, he would charge it upon the occupier, 
 who would lose sight of it in the general rate, and not object 
 to pay it.
 
 40 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 The Reverend ABRAHAM HUME, LL.I)., an Incumbent 
 in Liverpool, called in, and examined. 
 
 Rev. Dr. Incumbent of Vauxhall, Liverpool. A voluntary rate is 
 made for the two parish churches of Liverpool of one penny 
 in the pound, which but for refusals would be a halfpenny. A 
 large number of Dissenters concur in this voluntary rate. 1 224. 
 Dissenters would not oppose church rate from which Dis- 
 senters are exempted. 1225. It would be very strange 
 that they should object to Churchmen paying rates if they 
 think it proper. 12.33. There are some Dissenters who 
 desire the abolition of the union between the Church and the 
 State. 1 236. The ostensible objects of Dissenters are dif- 
 ferent from the understood objects ; eventually the separation 
 of the Church and State is aimed at ; but in open conversa- 
 tion it is not found, that Dissenters object expHcitly to Church- 
 men paying rates if they think proper. 1236. As to the pro- 
 gress of opinion and feeling upon the subject of church rates, 
 it appears that the attention of the public has been more 
 drawn to it ; and thinkino; Churchmen and thinking Dissenters 
 coincide upon the subject as a principle ; but hundreds, per- 
 haps thousands, who approve of church rates as a principle, 
 say that the clamour on the subject is so great, it is hardly 
 worth while to keep up the contention about them. 1239. 
 The litigation of the Braintree case, the frequent allusions to 
 the subject in Parliament, and in the newspapers, have drawn 
 attention to it. 1242. In certain parts of the counti'y, 
 
 ^yalcs, Monmouth, and Cornwall, church rates have been a 
 prominent article of faith in the politics of the day ; but in the 
 Church counties of England, and in Liverpool, the subject of 
 church rates, as a political movement, has not been much 
 attended to. 1 243. In Liverpool, if the Churchmen had seen 
 
 any great advantage in having church rates, they could with a 
 very trifling effort have saved them ; but many of the district 
 churches not partaking in the church rate, they declined to 
 vote. 1254. The district churches would have had no 
 benefit from the rate, 1265. In Liverpool there is a very 
 
 marked division between the rich and poor. Dr. Hume's
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURClf RATES. 41 
 
 parish is exclusively poor. 1270. The maintenance of Rev. Dr. 
 church rates is important, especially to the action of the "'"^' 
 Church in poorer localities. 1272. When first he came to 
 
 his district, of 8500, half of whom were Protestants, only 
 thirty-two families came to church ; at present there are 418 
 families from the same persons and area. 1273. In all the 
 poorer districts the operations of the Church are, to a great 
 degree, JNIissionary ; in the richer districts they are Minis- 
 terial. 1274. In the poorer localities, unless there is some 
 power of levying a fund for the support of the churches, some 
 of them must in the course of a few years be closed. 1276. 
 In these localities you cannot depend upon voluntary contribu- 
 tions for the maintenance of the church, 1279 ; in three years 
 and a half Dr. H. received only 181. from collections, and 
 8^. 8s. from private subscriptions ; the rest of the expense 
 falls on the incumbent, who has paid, in various ways, 251. per 
 year. 1 277. No other district in Liverpool is so unfor- 
 tunately circumstanced ; none is so completely a missionary 
 station. 1278. In some of the very poorest places there 
 are no dissenting meetings. 1280. In Liverpool several 
 have been closed for want of support, or sold or abandoned 
 when their resources diminished. 1281. When a district 
 
 becomes poor, the dissenting congregation generally migrates ; 
 the chapel is given up, and replaced in a better district of the 
 town. Nine dissenting chapels have occupied twenty-six 
 different sites ; there hapve been seventeen migrations ; whereas 
 a church is a permanent building for various grades of the 
 population, and when all the richer part of the population 
 leave the neighbourhood, it is left finally surrounded by 
 j)aupers, for whom it should still make provision. 1282. 
 Dissent, as a system, does not supply the poorer classes ; 
 it supplies the better portion of the middle, but more usually 
 the lower section of the middle classes. In all our large 
 hives of industry in England, the action of Dissent, jointly 
 with that of the Church, has utterly failed to evangelize the 
 people, and, in several instances, the non-worshipping com- 
 munity quite outnumber the worshipping community of all 
 kinds, 1283 ; so that one of the chief reasons for the mainte- 
 nance of church rates, is to enable the Church of England to
 
 42 SELECT COMMITTKE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Rev. Dr. meet the wants of the poorer part of the population ; the 
 necessity exists on missionary grounds. The abandonment 
 of the church rates is the abandonment of the poor. 1284. In 
 the poor districts in large towns, there is often a considerable 
 amount of property which ought to be liable to church rate, 
 in Dr. Hume's district there are large factories, offices, and 
 public companies. If there were a law for church rates, he does 
 not think they would object for one moment to pay them. 
 1225. At present it is not permitted to levy rates in Dr. 
 Hume''s district parish, but were there authority to do so, he 
 does not think there would be any difficulty whatever. 1286. 
 Gentlemen subscribe to churches where they reside, and not 
 where the people are employed, or where their fortunes 
 are created. 1287. As to abolishing church rates in towns, 
 and continuing them in the country, there are reasons of a 
 hundredfold force, why they should be continued in the large 
 towns. The population of England is rapidly becoming a 
 town population. In 1851 there were nine millions in towns 
 of ten thousand and upwards, and only eight millions in smaller 
 towns and country ; it is probable that at the close of this 
 century, 70 per cent, of the population will be in large towns ; 
 therefore if our large towns are left to themselves, practical 
 heathenism must inevitably soon outgrow Christianity. 1288. 
 There is a large percentage of irreligious people, who, in 
 the seventy- three large boroughs and towns of England, are 
 nominally of the Church of England, but practically of no 
 Church ; and it is to that class that the action of the Church 
 should be directed, to those whom we are about to lose or 
 have lost altogether. 1293. Unless some provision is made 
 by law for the maintenance of the churches, the parochial 
 action will be in time neutralized, and is so in certain places 
 at this moment. 1294. This class of the population is in 
 danger of being lost, not only to the Church, but to religion 
 altogether. Apart from public worship in churches and 
 chapels, there are religious influences which permeate the 
 lower strata of society, scripture readers, schools, bibles, and 
 tracts ; but it is to be feared that in another generation, the 
 masses will become more and more irreligious, and that from 
 being passive in irreligion, they will become active secularists
 
 AND LEW OF CHURCH KATES. 43 
 
 or active opposers to religion. 1295. The active progress ^^^- ^^' 
 of irreiigion is one of the phenomena that now surround us. 
 In thirty-four of the great towns of England, with a popula- 
 tion of nearly four millions of people, more than half (52| per 
 cent.) attend no place of worship whatever. 1296. If there 
 has been a growth of religious feeling in the country, it is 
 probably not in proportion to the growth of population. The 
 population is growing rapidly in our large towns, and religion 
 ought to grow with at least equal rapidity ; but it is not so 
 doing. It is not in Liverpool, yet Liverpool is not the worst 
 place in the kingdom. 1300. The number of churches and 
 ministers has increased in Liverpool. There has been more 
 efforts and more money given, but owing to the separation be- 
 tween rich and poor, it is often ill distributed, and does not 
 yield an adequate return. 1306. And so also as to schools, 
 and there are difficulties not sufficiently taken into account 
 in the operation of the Privy Council regulations. The 
 richer districts are more than abundantly supplied, whilst from 
 the poorer districts grants are withheld which they absolutely 
 need. And as to churches, where help is most required, there 
 is least present, and large masses of poor are left unprovided ; 
 as one part of a town becomes a St. Giles, another becomes a 
 St. James, and there is a large neglected community, of which 
 the rich know nothing. 1307. An analysis of the popula- 
 tion of Liverpool and the church accommodation at various 
 times, shows that sometimes we have gone backward in 
 church accommodation, when we thought we were going 
 forward, as a boat borne back by the tide more than its oars 
 make way, is really losing ground. 1308. The practical in- 
 conveniences arising from the absence of means of supporting 
 the churches \\liicli have been built, are going on every year, 
 and are exhibiting themselves more unmistakeably, especially in 
 the poorer and most popular districts where new churches have 
 been erected. 1312. Dr. Hume's church was built with the 
 understanding that some portion of the pews might be let ; that 
 is found morally impossible. There is no fund for insuring 
 the church, and Dr. H. insures it. There is no repair fund ; 
 so that there is a public institution existing for the benefit 
 of tlie public not insured from fire or kept in repair except at
 
 44 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Rev. Dr. the expense of the incumbent. 1313. The population of 
 Hume. Liverpool is 450,000, and two- thirds of it, 300,000, are per- 
 sons who ought to have free churches to go to. They are 
 labourers unable to contribute to the church ; and the class 
 immediately above them, who are more unwilling to contribute, 
 and who should be encouraged to the performance of duty. 1321. 
 An analysis of the population of England and Wales, calcu- 
 lated upon Mr. Mann''s formula}^ founded upon " the Census 
 of religious worship," shows the proportion which the leading 
 sects bear to the whole population : — 
 
 1333. There are in England and Wales : — 
 
 Chapel-going Roman Catholics 610,786 or 3| per cent. 
 
 Chapel-going Baptists . 
 Chapel- going Independents. 
 Chapel-going Wesleyans 
 All other Dissenters, Jews, &c. 
 
 The total number of worshipping 
 honcifide Protestant Dissenters . 5,305,609 „ 29| „ 
 
 1336. The Church of England members divided into Church- 
 going or nominal Churchmen are : — 
 
 Actual Church-going men . . 7,546,948 or 42 per cent. 
 
 Irreligious or nominal . . . 4,466,266 ,, 25 „ 
 
 457,181 
 
 11 
 
 2i 
 
 1,297,861 
 
 11 
 
 7i 
 
 2,264,321 
 
 11 
 
 13 
 
 1,286,246 
 
 11 
 
 6f 
 
 12,013,214 „ 67 „ 
 
 The field of operation of the clergy is therefore 67 per cent, of 
 the whole population. Not only the Protestant Dissenters in 
 Liverpool are not aware, but very few even of Churchmen are 
 aware, that with reference to missionary duty our Church 
 stands alone. 1341. The Established Church has especially 
 the cure of souls. Roman Catholics attend to their own mem- 
 bers, and Protestant Dissenters attend to their own members 
 who attend their respective chapels, but not to the mass of the 
 poor outside. 1342. But the clergy of the Estabhshed 
 
 Church are bound to attend to all who will receive their ser- 
 vices within their parochial Jinn'ts. 1 343.
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH HATES. 45 
 
 If the church rate were applicable to the repair of all the Rev. Dr. 
 different churches in Liverpool, there would be no difficulty in "'"^' 
 getting a church rate ; but the rate being applicable only to 
 the two parish churches, and not to the district churches, 
 nine-tenths of the Church people fancy that they have no 
 great interest in the matter at present. 1351. 
 
 [Dr. Hume exhibited to the Committee a Map of England 
 and Wales, divided into dioceses, containing diagrams, shoioing 
 the relative numbers of Churchmen and Dissenters in the whole 
 country, and in seventy-three of the great towns. The Map is 
 inserted at page 135 of the Report.^ 
 
 The Reverend ROBERT CFIAPMAN SAVAGE, Vicar of 
 
 Nuneaton, called in, and examined. 
 
 Vicar of Nuneaton. In Nuneaton there was some opposition Rev. Robert 
 to church rates : in 1856, 281 were in favour of the rate, 18 ^g^^'J^'"^''" 
 against it; in 1857, 191 for it, 13 against it ; in 1858, 207 "'''^^*'' 
 for it, against it, 2. 1355. The Act for the division of 
 parishes has very materially diminished the opposition. The 
 vestries formerly were noisy ; people came from the hamlets 
 three or four miles. Subsequently to the Act the annoyance 
 has ceased. One rate maintained the three churches, but the 
 inhabitants of the hamlets did not think that they got their 
 full proportion. 1359. Acting under the advice of counsel, 
 each district now levies its own rates without any opposition. 
 The Dissenters in Nuneaton attend church occasionally, and 
 use the church for baptisms, marriages, and burials ; the clergy 
 visit them in their sickness and contribute to their necessities. 
 1367. If church rates were abolished, great difficulties 
 would be thrown upon the parishes. It is not sim|)ly the 
 abolition of a tax, but the breaking up a system and disturbing 
 a great principle. The Church and State is so united by 
 legislation, that the Church has been a very great machine 
 for the moral and religious advancement of the people. If the
 
 46 SELKCT COMMITTED ON THE ASSESSMKXT 
 
 Rev.Robert church rate be abolished, the position of the churchwarden is 
 Sava'^e" ^^^ered ; the churchwarden and tlie minister are a corporation 
 for many purposes. The churchwarden has many civil rights 
 — is an officer, an overseer. The aboHtion of the church rate 
 would cause a great dislocation in our whole parochial system, 
 which has been working admirably, and will work better as 
 the results of improved legislation are made to bear upon it. 
 The dangers are hardly to be overrated. 1 370. How will 
 a churchwarden be got to act if he is to be responsible, and 
 yet have no church rate ? He may be cited into the Eccle- 
 siastical Court in the discharge of his office. 1371. A 
 churchwarden without a church rate would resemble a Chan- 
 cellor of the Exchequer without a revenue. 1373. If 
 church rates were abolished, the churchwarden would still 
 have the duty of arranging sittings and pews. 1375. The 
 church utensils and property of the church would be still 
 vested in him ; the liabilities of the office are such that a man 
 would with difficulty undertake it, not having means to meet 
 them. 1376. The preservation of the rate, though of the 
 smallest possible fraction, is very important for maintaining the 
 integrity of a system which is most valuable to the country. 1377. 
 The abolition of the church rate involves the separation of 
 Church and State, and is therefore advocated by those VN-ho 
 desire that separation. 1378, 1379. It is not the Dissenters 
 who have a strong conscientious objection to church rate, so 
 much as persons who have no religion, who do not go to any 
 place of worship, and who object to any rate or tax. Other 
 rates are made by law without their consent ; the church rate 
 is the only one in which they have opportunity to exhibit 
 their opposition or their bad feeling. 1381. Instances 
 might be given to prove that Dissenters have not a very 
 strong conscientious objection to the Church. 1383. The 
 difficulty of the case would be obviated by allowing Dis- 
 senters to claim exemption from church rates ; they think it 
 wrong to be made to pay to services in which they do not 
 participate ; to support our churches as well as their own 
 chapels. 1384. In agricultural parishes the abolition of 
 church rates would be ruinous unless some large landed pro- 
 prietor took upon himself the support of the services and
 
 AND LEVY OF CHDUCH RATES. 47 
 
 the fabric. 1388. The farmers would not do it; it would Rev. Robert 
 fall upon the clergyman. 1390. They do not support the sara'U. 
 national schools, though they derive benefit from them ; they 
 pay for the education of their ciiildren, but nothing more. 
 13.91. Dissenters and Roman Catholics maintain their 
 own chapels, because he who dissents from the Church does 
 so under the influence of some feeling or opinion, for the 
 support of which he is willing to pay ; men do not seek 
 religion for themselves ; but the Church of England raises 
 her standard, and is the home for all classes of people. She 
 has maintained the truth in the midst of all the variations 
 which have passed over dissenting bodies. In Nuneaton one 
 dissenting meeting is shut up, and another was turned into a 
 dwelling-house, though now opened again by the mortgagee 
 to get his interest paid ; but the church always remains 
 open. 1394. The right which every parishioner has to a 
 seat in the church is an inducement to him to attend the 
 church ; no one can reprove him, as might be done in a dis- 
 senting chapel, or say to him, that because he does not con- 
 tribute, he has no business there. 1404. It would be a 
 great good to the labouring population if this right could be 
 universally extended. The population has grown beyond the 
 provision made for them in the churclies of Parishes and 
 Districts. 1405. The abolition of church rates involves 
 an immense amount of social evil. 1406. Were rates 
 
 abolished the clergy must lose their pew rents, and with 
 them their incomes, which are even at present distressingly 
 inadequate, especially in the poorest and most populous dis- 
 tricts. 1407, 1408. And if the chui'ches fall out of re- 
 pair their work would be impeded to a great extent. 1410. 
 Were new parishes to be allowed to collect their own rates 
 for their own churches, they would have a local interest and 
 be able to collect them. In a circle of twenty miles round 
 Nuneaton, in only three or four places has church rate 
 been refused, and, with the exception of Birmingliam, in only 
 three places in the whole county of Warwick. 1413. The 
 population of those places is 13,000; of the remaining 
 parishes 1 50,000. In Nuneaton the population of the parish 
 and its hamlets is 8000. There are no large landed pro-
 
 48 SEr.F.CT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESS.MEXT 
 
 Rev. Robert prietors to influence the people living amongst them ; the 
 Savage*'^ landlords live in Cheshire ; there are no large manufacturers 
 of overpowering influence (they are for the most part riljand 
 weavers, 1 385) ; there is no serious difiiculty in collecting 
 the rate. 1 420. In the vestries of the hamlets there has 
 been no ill feeling in making the rate. 1422. One of the 
 refusals to make church rate within twenty miles of Nun- 
 eaton, arose from a new incumbent succeeding one who paid 
 every thing himself, and did not take his full tithes. The 
 parishioners were angry at the new incumbent taking his 
 right, and refused a church rate. 1422. A great part of 
 the evil of church rate has arisen from its not being defined 
 what is chargeable to the rate. Items have been put in im- 
 properly ; to prevent agitation the object of the rate should 
 be defined and confined to things necessary for divine wor- 
 ship and the maintenance of the fabric. 1426. If the owner 
 were rated instead of the occupier, the owner would charge 
 it in his rent, so that it would practically fall on the occu- 
 pier. It is the occupier, not the owner, who has a right to a 
 pew. Gibson says, Rate for the fabric is real, charging the 
 land, and not the person ; rate for ornaments and service is 
 personal upon the goods, not on the land ; but such a separa- 
 tion does not seem desirable now. 1430. Possibly Dis- 
 senters, who object to a rate for the service, might not object 
 to a rate for the fabric. 1432. Dissenters have still rights 
 in the Church, and services due to them from its ministers, 
 which they may at any time demand ; so that they have con- 
 siderable advantage for what they pay to the Church. 1 434. 
 Dissenters are not unwilling to receive the nn'nistrations 
 of the clergy. Several make common use of the church and 
 chapel. 1435. 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 26, 1859. 
 
 The Right Honourable STEPHEN LUSHINGTON, D.C.L., 
 Judge of the Admiralty Court, examined. 
 
 The state of the Law since the decision on the Braintree case 
 is this. No court will enforce a church rate made by church-
 
 AND T.EVY OF CHURCH KATES. 49 
 
 wardens alone, which had been negatived by a majority. Right Hon. 
 1438. When it is said, that the majority who refuse to Lushington, 
 make a rate are still in law censurable and liable to a penalty, 
 it is certainly true that tiie parishioners are bound to repair 
 their church, and to provide what is necessary for the per- 
 formance of divine service, and, of course, if they refuse to do 
 so, they are guilty of a breach of duty ; but there is no penalty 
 which could attach to them — for this reason, the fear of an 
 interdict would have been quite sufficient to have enforced a 
 church rate, but that was in Catholic times, this remedy has 
 ceased. Church rate is of extreme antiquity, begun beyond 
 all doubt in Saxon times. It was a rate upon the person with 
 respect to his ability whether it was in land or personal pro- 
 perty ; but in those days there being very little personal pro- 
 perty, if any, capable of being taxed, it was a tax upon land in 
 the possession of the occupier. About fifty years ago the 
 present spirit of opposition began to rise. 1448. As our 
 population has increased the whole thing has assumed a 
 different appearance : as large towns have increased, and as 
 Dissent has increased, it has become a matter of religious 
 feeling, and hence this dissension. 1449. The decision of 
 the House of Lords has left it optional to the rate-payers to 
 make the rate or not. 1450. If persons who did not belong 
 to the Church were exempted, all reasonable ground of objec- 
 tion would be removed. 1451. To abolish church rate quasi 
 Churchmen would be matter of regret, unless you were sure 
 that good men would uphold the Church : it would be a positive 
 iniquity, if there were not chui'ch room found for the poor of 
 this country. 1453. Disputes about church rates have 
 
 been fewer durinff the last seven years, but cases have arisen 
 from a state of things which form a separate head of con- 
 sideration, viz., the difficulty of making a rate, independently 
 of the disposition to do it. 1453. AV here there is a great 
 
 variety of property, it is no easy matter to make a just and 
 equal assessment. If the poor law assessment be just and 
 right, there could be no objection to a church rate made 
 accordingly, but the poor law assessment itself may not be 
 made according to law ; and then a question arising as to the 
 church rate, any one who opposed the rate may discover the
 
 50 S1LK( r COlMMri TKE ox THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Kiftht Hon. smallest hole to croep out, and this being brought before the 
 iiushrncton. j^^^oG he has no alternative but to pronounce against the rate. 
 1454. This difficulty can hardly be got over, because strin- 
 gent as the law is with regard to poor rate, it is constantly 
 evaded. 1455. The rules laid down by the Act are just, 
 but we know that the rates made are not strictly just or 
 equitable. 1455. There should be a more simple and ready 
 means of enforcing the collection of rates once made. The 
 Ecclesiastical Court is not the fit and proper jui'isdiction. 
 1460. The remedy for collecting it should be the same as 
 is given to the poor law guardians. 1461. If Dissenters 
 were exempted, there would be no injustice in enforcing the 
 rate in a summary manner upon Churchmen. 1462. It is 
 impossible that the feelings of the Dissenters, who oppose 
 cliurch rates, can alter. Few Churchmen really oppose them. 
 The feeling of the Dissenters is founded on religious objection. 
 1467. When it is asked whether it would be inconsistent 
 with the law, or any gross violation of the law of England to 
 grant by statute an exemption to Dissenters, it is very diffi- 
 cult to give a positive answer, the question being so mixed up 
 with other questions as to the maintenance of the Established 
 Church. It is of great importance that Dissenters have a 
 strong objection ; but if it could be left to Churchmen alone, 
 the l)urden is, generally speaking, so slight that it might be 
 cheerfully borne. 1469. The Dissenters' objection to 
 
 maintaining a Church to which they do not belong is a good 
 objection, but they are not justified in using it, if it goes to 
 an alteration of the constitution in Church and State. 1470. 
 Great obloquy was thrown formerly upon church rates from 
 the abuse of the system, but if confined to their proper use, 
 the maintenance of the fabrics and the decent performance of 
 divine service, there could be no objection to them. In the 
 matter of church rates there are three distinct articles which 
 come into controversy : — first, the maintenance of the Church 
 and the proper performance of divine service ; secondly, articles 
 which the vestry can sanction and which can be properly paid 
 out of the church rate ; thirdly, expenses which cannot be 
 paid ])y any consent whatever. 1472. It would be desirable 
 to assimilate tiie church rate to the poor rate, and give the
 
 AND LICVY OF CHURCH RATES, 51 
 
 same remedies. 1473.^ And entirely to divest the Eccle- Riglit lion. 
 siastical Court of all authority. 1 474. Persons who state LushlnKton. 
 that they have conscientious objections should be exempted 
 from the rate, and have no right to a voice in the vestry. 
 ]476. Every district should maintain its own church : it is 
 a hardship to pay pew rents and to be rated to the mother 
 church, ] 477-79. If those who dissent from the Church 
 were removed from the sphere of dissension, and church rates 
 were put on an express footing, things would go on much more 
 quietly. 1484. If it be said that those persons who were 
 exempted would get a benefit to which they are not entitled, 
 it must be replied that the rate is not a charge upon land, but 
 a personal charge with respect to property ; it never was a 
 charge upon land. One hundred and fifty years ago, w4ien a 
 chancel was out of repair, and the Ecclesiastical Court endea- 
 voured to attach the property, the court interfered by pro- 
 hibition and said. You may proceed against the individual, 
 but not touch the property. 1484. A person to be rated 
 must be in the actual occupation of the property. 1487. 
 It is preferable to leave the church rate as a charge in per- 
 sonam^ rather than to make it a settled charge upon the land ; 
 the more the rate is assimilated to the poor rate the better. 
 It would be well to have one rate, and that the expense should 
 be paid out of the poor rate. 1488. The present difficulties 
 exist as to the mode in which the rate is made, it is so very 
 difficult to make a perfect and just rate. 1491. Objections 
 of this sort are much more common than before. 1492. 
 But it is the same leading motive which occasions this more 
 narrow investigation and inquiry. 149*3. Most of the per- 
 
 sons who dispute the church rate on these grounds are Dis- 
 senters. 1494. If you were to relieve Dissenters from 
 making a church rate, and at the same time destroyed their 
 title to a seat in the church, it would have a very mischievous 
 effect. The church doors should still be open to them. It 
 is very well to say, If you take the benefit you ought to par- 
 ticipate in the burden, but it would be great imprudence to 
 shut the doors against them. 1501, 
 
 D 2
 
 52 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 CHARLES JAMES FOSTER, Esquire, LL.D., called in, 
 and examined. 
 
 ciiarles Chairmax of tlic Parliamentary Committee of the Society for 
 tcr Esq." ^^^^ Liberation of Religion from Slate patronage and controul. 
 The Society wishes to separate the Church from the State, 
 to take away all funds and property with which the State has 
 endowed any religious denomination whatever, and to free all 
 denominations of persons who may happen to be under special 
 legislation on religious grounds from such special legislation. 
 It does not wish to take away grants which have proceeded 
 from individuals, but any thing received by Act of Parliament, 
 tithes included. ]51L It looks to the secularization of all 
 property given by the State for religious purposes, and the 
 abolition of State controul over religious bodies. 1535. The 
 objects of the Society are the application to secular uses of all 
 national property now held upon trust by the Church of Eng- 
 land and Ireland, and the Presbyterian Church of Scotland. 
 1583. It is not too strong an expression, to call the obliga- 
 tion of a Baptist or Independent to contribute to the support of 
 the Church to which he does not belon^ an immoral obhijation. 
 1535. As to the question whether the voluntary principle 
 would provide accommodation for the poor, it is answered that 
 it has already done so, as is proved by this argument. In 
 1801, the Church provided 82 per cent, of the accommo- 
 dation, the Dissenters 18 per cent. Now the Church pro- 
 vides 52 per cent., and Dissent 48 per cent. The Church 
 has thus gone down, and Dissent gone up, and our view is, 
 that the Church has suffered by its connexion with the State, 
 and that Dissent has done well, because it has been freed from 
 that hampering tie. 1570. Dissent has outstripped the 
 population, and the Church fallen behind it. 1572. It 
 
 would be to the interest of the Church of England not to 
 occupy that position of superiority in the country, which the 
 law now gives her. 1581. The Society has promoted a 
 Bill for the general abolition of church rates, 1591, in order 
 to the promotion and spread of religion. 1603. It has 
 issued publications instructing parishes how to proceed to
 
 ANU LEVY OF CHURCH UATKS. 03 
 
 refuse a rate, 1G20; and to show that it is nearly impossible Charles 
 to levy a rate in a parish, if proper steps be taken to re- J'^'»'^s l'"s- 
 fuse it. ] 621 . Except here and there, the chief sup- 
 porters of the Society are not persons, who notoriously have 
 no regard for religion of any kind. 1649. The general 
 feeling of those, who are most anxious for the abolition of 
 church rates, is one of strong sympathy with the Episcopalian 
 body. 1650. The Society is not prepared with any Bill 
 proposing the secular objects to which ecclesiastical property 
 may be appropriated. 1667. The Episcopalians are tenants 
 of ecclesiastical edifices which are national property. 1678. 
 It is a short-sighted view of the question at issue to think, 
 that collision would subside, if the church rate question were 
 settled ; as long as the Established Church exists, there will 
 be the same point of difference. 1697. Were there no Es- 
 tablished Church, many would become Episcopalians. 1 698. 
 If the church rate question were settled to-morrow, the 
 Society would have ulterior objects. 1679. The conviction 
 among English Dissenters of the necessity for a separation of 
 the Church from the State for the good of religion is of com- 
 paratively modern origin. 1683. The old men among the 
 Dissenters remain pretty much where they were left ; they 
 have hardly gone along with the advancing tide. 1690. 
 The exemption of Dissenters from church rates would not 
 satisfy the body ; church rates must be altogether abolished. 
 On the part of those who have promoted the Bill, there has 
 been no talk of the exemption of Dissenters. 1519. The 
 Society has not particularly encouraged any movement 
 against church rates, except by assisting those who have come 
 for advice with the advice wanted, and also by undertaking the 
 conduct of the Parliamentary movement, the objections of the 
 Society being derived solely from church rates being one means 
 of connexion between Church and State. 1514. In the 
 
 election of members of Parliament there was undonbtedly 
 activity in the Parliamentary Committee of the Society, 
 1613; and all legitimate and constitutional means would be 
 used by the Committee to return members who are pledged 
 against church rates, though it is hardly necessary to act 
 thus, the feeling being so strong in the country. 1614, 1615.
 
 54 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Charles One would not like to say, that what has been clone in 
 ter^Es"^" Ptii'li^iwent is, as some have said, the doing of the Liberation 
 Society, though it has done its best to support it. 1629. As 
 far as outside action goes, it would be a fair representation 
 of the case to say, that the Bill is their own Bill, and been 
 fathered and promoted by the Society. 1631. As Chair- 
 man of the Parliamentary Committee it was the Chairman's 
 duty to give advice to persons anxious to dispute church 
 rates. 1610. During the last two or three years, there 
 have been four, five, six, or even ten cases in a day (not 
 indeed throughout the whole year, 1611), and hardly once in a 
 month does one meet with the case of a perfectly legal church 
 rate, and which an honest man might not conscientiously refuse 
 to pay, as tainted with illegality. 1514. That the rates are 
 levied in 8000 parishes, and refused in only 500, is hardly a 
 correct statement of the case. A rate may be nominally 
 made, and properly entered in the return, but as a general 
 rule rates so made are not in point of fact collected, and any 
 person who chooses to refuse, does so with impunity. 1619. 
 1634. The tactics of the Society consists in lowering the 
 amount of church rate as much as in opposing it. The actual 
 decline in the last five years has been 5000^. at least. The 
 success of opposition shows itself as much by reduction as 
 otherwise. 1617. The majority of communications to the 
 Society now come from rural districts, no doubt from Dis- 
 senters. 1639. 1642. 
 
 Mr. WALPOLFi E. GREEN WELL, Vestry Clerk of 
 St. Marylcbonc, examined. 
 
 Mr. Wal- The parish of Marylebone, with reference to Church 
 Greenweil. "letters, is under several local iVcts. 170,0001. was bor- 
 rowed on the security of the church rate, a portion of which, 
 29,400/., is still owing. The vestry have built five churches 
 and a burial-ground. 1706. The rate is made by the 
 
 vestry ; they have power to levy not exceeding 6d. in the 
 pound upon tiie amount of the poor rate assessment. 1713.
 
 ANU LEVY OF CllUllCH KATES. 65 
 
 Id. in the pound is raised, and produces 3700^. The Mr. Wal~ 
 vestry receive the pew rents, burial fees, and rate, and Greenwell. 
 out of the whole pays the stipends to the minister of 
 each church, the repairs, the clerk, the organist (but upon 
 one church there is a deficiency annually of 500^.), and the 
 salaries of the different officers of the church. There is one 
 mother church, four district churches, two chapels of ease, 
 one burial-ground, and two houses on the ground thus main- 
 tained. The debt and the interest come to a halfpenny I'ate ; 
 the other halfpenny is sufficient for the other purposes. 1721. 
 There are no disputes about the rate. The Act obliges the 
 rate to be levied. There is no difficulty in collecting it. 
 It is collected with the other rates at one time, and one 
 receipt given. The collection of the rate produces no ill 
 feeling. Two Friends have always required an amicable dis- 
 tress. There are Dissenters in the vestry. Generally speak- 
 ing the district churches pay their expenses out of their own 
 funds ; but one of the churches does not do so, and it creates 
 dissatisfaction that that church should not be in tlie same 
 position as the others. 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 29, 1851). 
 
 The lleverend GEORGE OSBORN, a Minister of the 
 Methodist Connexion, examined. 
 
 A MINISTER of the Wesleyan Methodists for thirty years. Rov. George 
 Twenty-five years ago a society was organized to promote the 
 separation of Church and State, and a AVesleyau minister 
 became secretary to it. He was required by the Conference 
 to resign that office, and declining so to do was separated from 
 the body. No attacks upon the Church have been counte- 
 nanced by the Wesleyan body. The principles of strict dissent 
 have never been either professed or assumed ; attendance upon 
 the religious services of the Established Church is not dis- 
 couraged. In the year 1834 the Conference n^quested the 
 pubhcation of a speech which con^nined tlie following scnti-
 
 56 SELKCT COMMITTEE ON' THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Rev.George ment : " Let the voluntary principle be carried as far as 
 it possibly can in the advancement of Christian instruction,, 
 yet, after all, the country cannot do without the establishment 
 either in resisting Popery, Socinianism, and Infidelity, or in the 
 maintenance of Christian godhness and public virtue." ] 753. 
 The feelings of the Wesleyan body are pretty much the same 
 now, but they have been weakened by the rites of burial having 
 been refused to the children of Methodists, in defiance of the 
 law, and often of the recommendation of the diocesan ; and 
 irritation has been produced by the attempts to accommodate 
 the structure of the parish church to anti-Protestant doc- 
 trines, and to introduce usages in the celebration of worship 
 which the Reformation does not sanction. ] 755. The refusal 
 of burial does more to excite irritation than fifty Liberation 
 Society speeches. 1758. No public and collective action 
 against church rates has ever taken place in the Wesleyan 
 body, nor any instance of refusal to pay; hence it maybe 
 inferred that there is no wide-spread feeling of opposition to 
 them, but the contrary. 1763. The body does not seek to 
 be absolved from the payment of church rates. 1765. The 
 extinction of the National Church is to be deplored as one of 
 the greatest calamities which could befall our native country. 
 One would wish to see it upheld in its integrity and increased 
 in its usefulness, consistently with entire liberty to Noncon- 
 formists. 1766. The Established Church provides a place 
 of public worship accessible to all classes, designed for the 
 benefit of all, and a system of instruction and worship of which 
 all may avail themselves, if they will. The Established Church 
 is the greatest Home Missionary institution of which we have 
 cognizance. 1767. The willingness of Wesleyans to con- 
 tribute to the support of the Church is not derived from their 
 using the churches, so much as from the immense national 
 benefit which accrues from, and the inmiensc national loss 
 which would be incurred by the overthrow of the Established 
 Church. 1770. The parochial system is the only means of 
 really leavening the country with that knowledge of divine 
 truth which is necessary to its welfare, and which needs to be 
 extended and adapted to the growth of various places ; but 
 being so adapted and extended, no apparatus can compare
 
 AND LEVY OF CHURCH RATES, 57 
 
 with it for efficiency. 1771. ^V^el•e the parochial system Rev.George 
 
 broken up, all the voluntary efforts which might be put for- *''""■ 
 
 ward either by separate classes of Nonconformists, or by the 
 joint labours of Churchmen and Nonconformists, would not 
 suffice to compensate for its overthrow, which would be very 
 injurious to religion and to the welfare of the country as 
 dependent upon religion. 1772. The remark that bodies, 
 who are supported by voluntary contributions, must depend a 
 great deal upon persons of property, hardly applies to the 
 Methodist connexion, in which a very considerable revenue is 
 raised by the systematic contributions of the poor. 1773. 
 The tendency of dissent is to deal with the middle classes, 
 and when they forsake a particular neighbourhood the chapel 
 is removed, and were there not some other description of pro- 
 vision made, the neighbourhood would be left without any, 1 775 ; 
 but the poor are fastened to the locality; and this one conside- 
 ration weighs very much as to the importance of a territorial 
 provision, which shall be independent of the fluctuations of 
 commerce and other causes constantly occurring. 1776. 
 No man seeks the truth of his own accord ; and if he is to 
 apprehend the truth, it must be brought to him, and the 
 means of making him acquainted with it must be of an 
 aggressive character ; it must seek the person to be taught, 
 the pei-son to be taught will not seek it. 1777. It would 
 be matter of regret if the task of obtaining voluntary sub- 
 scriptions for the maintenance of the fabric were thrown upon 
 the clergy — it would interfere with their work : and one can- 
 not understand why, if parishes are willing to tax themselves, 
 the legislature should interfere to prevent it. It is an inex- 
 plicable violation of tlie principle of religious liberty, except 
 the object be entirely to overthrow the Established Church. 
 1795. As to the abolition of church rates being part 
 of a system, which the Liberation Society is endeavouring 
 to bring about for the overthrow of the Established Church, 
 amongst the Dissenters of this country are found tiiose who 
 frequently speak on this subject, and one cannot doubt that 
 their principles necessarily lead to the disendowment of the 
 Established Church, and its separation from the State in that 
 sense. They have said that they would be glad to see that
 
 58 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Rev.Georgo object effected, as they think it would conduce to the welfare 
 Osborn. ^f religion on the whole. 1 804. But ray opinion is quite 
 the reverse. The Established Church beinjr disendowed 
 would lose the immense advantages which she now possesses, 
 1. for penetrating the whole mass of the population, 2. for 
 cultivating a high theological literature, which is essential to 
 the interests of Christianity in the long run, and, 3. for the 
 hold which it now has upon the upper classes of society, which 
 is as essential to the national welfare, as its hold upon the 
 lower classes. The influence of the Established Church upon 
 the welfare of England is inestimably valuable. Upon the 
 supposition of its being overthrown one cannot see how the 
 national profession of Christianity could be maintained. J 806. 
 The effect of suddenly placing the Established Church upon 
 a voluntary basis, would be to unsettle the whole kingdom, 
 to unsettle men's minds upon every question, to destroy and 
 unsettle the tenure of property to a perilous extent, and as a 
 matter of course to unsettle the religious institutions. 1809. 
 It is better to let the law stand as it is, than to open a door 
 for the introduction of exemption. If exemptions were allowed 
 it is hard to say where they would stop, unless the legisla- 
 ture could see a method, by which the parties might be relieved 
 without invading a principle. 1810. 
 
 Mr. JOHN GLADDING, residing at No. 39, City-road, 
 London, called in, and examined. 
 
 Mr. Join A N Independent, at one time resident in St. Luke's, Finsbury, 
 '"^" in which parish the Dissenters are a majority. The payment 
 of the chiu'ch expenses is made from the poor rate. There is 
 a local act under which the parish was divided from Cripple- 
 gate, by the presumed authority of which the balance of the 
 churchwardens'' account is paid by the guardians of the poor 
 — the churchwardens thus providing for expenses generally pro- 
 vided for in the church rate. 1823. When the new churches 
 in the paribh made a claim upon the rate for the defrayment of
 
 AND LEVY OP' CHURCH RATES. 59 
 
 their expenses, upon a poll the claim of the new churches was Mr. Joim 
 voted against, and part of the claims of the mother church then '' '"^* 
 for the first time. 1827. An act for the abolition of church 
 rates would not annul the powers of the local act, enabling the 
 churchwardens to collect sums for the church expenses with 
 the poor rate. The church expenses amount to 250L per 
 annum. 1829. In the populous parish of West Ham, there 
 are many Dissenters ; some years ago a rate was rejected by 
 a large majority — the rate was rejected under a strong feel- 
 ing of injustice in the parishioners being obliged to pay for 
 the expenses of the church in addition to their own places of 
 worship. 1838. Communications were made to the parish 
 from the Society for the Liberation of Religion, but the opposi- 
 tion to the church rate is not attributable to those communi- 
 cations. Numerous distraints upon the goods of the Friends, 
 Mr. Samuel Gurney, and others, annually made, produced 
 a strong opposition. The rate was 6d. in the pound; it 
 was for the ordinary expenses, and not for the reparation of 
 the church. It had been repaired by money boi'rowed, and a 
 separate rate made for it. 184;5. The Dissenters would have 
 objected to pay for the reparation of the church, Many who 
 voted against the rate would have contributed to the inci- 
 dental expenses if it had been voluntary. Dissenters would be 
 satisfied with exemption from church rates if not put under 
 disability, or having any of their rights as parishioners in 
 other matters curtailed in any way. They would object to 
 any interference with their rights in general matters. 1849. 
 But if a Dissenter claimed the right of burying in the church- 
 yard, and using the church, and the services of the church 
 whenever he wished, it would be fair that such an individual 
 should pay his quota to the rate. 1859. The state of the 
 law is in large towns unsatisfactory, but in rural parishes on 
 the whole satisfactory. 1866. Dissenters would not like to 
 be put into a position to claim exemption from the rate. 1872. 
 They would not like to be put aside, they would rather wait 
 until the majority should declare against the rate than have 
 any of their privileges and rights in vestry taken away. 1877. 
 The Dissenter would object to a commutation of the church 
 rate, such as the commutation of tithes, because it would bind
 
 60 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Mr. John him and his descendants to a payment which he would rather 
 ^' should be left to his voluntary decision. The dissenting body 
 are glad to get rid of church rates only when they are felt to be 
 burdensome, where a majority of Dissenters exist in a parti- 
 cular locality, 1893; a great many Dissenters plead con- 
 scientious grounds for objecting to church rates (1894), but 
 the conscientious objection is not so extensive as is generally 
 supposed (1895). It is a first step towards an ulterior end, the 
 total abolition of church rates. The feeling of injustice in 
 having church rates levied upon those who have their own 
 places of worship to support, is a feeling more largely enter- 
 tained, than the conscientious scruple against paying the 
 church expenses (1898). The objection to the connexion of 
 the Established Religion with the State is not a very strong 
 feeling or very extensively entertained, nor is any definite idea 
 of the extinction of the Establishment entertained by the 
 Dissenters at large. 1 900. The present state of the law 
 which leaves it to a majority to decide whether tliere shall bo 
 a rate or not is most satisfactory, and is preferable to any 
 exemption in favour of Dissenters. 1908. The enforcing 
 a rate by the Ecclesiastical Court is most objectionable ; it 
 would be better to have an appeal to some civil court. 1911. 
 This evidence as to the opinions of Dissenters is confined to 
 those with whom the witness has associated in different 
 parishes, in West Ham and London, in which the witness had 
 a very large acquaintance. 1921, 22. 
 
 ward Moore 
 
 The Reverend EDWARD MOORE, Rector of Frittenden, 
 called in, and examined. 
 
 Rov. Ed- Incumbent of Frittenden, population 900, and rather a small 
 parish. Never had any difficulty in raising church rates until 
 this year. The rate was disputed, but carried upon a poll. 
 The opposition was got up by a few persons, but there is 
 reason to think the same tiling will not occur ag-ain. The 
 rate was thrown out by a show of hands, the opponents having
 
 AXD LEVY OF CHURCH RATES. 61 
 
 been collected together unexpectedly. Fifty-five polled for Rev. Ed- 
 tlie rate, forty-eight against it. The rate will not be collected wardMoore. 
 till the autumn, but no difficulty is anticipated. Nearly one- 
 third of the grown persons in the parish are Dissenters. 
 The opposition was not produced by any agency from London. 
 On one previous occasion, when .five persons were present, 
 three voted for it, two against it. The rate will produce 
 above 30^., and will be applied to the necessities of divine 
 service, new bell ropes, and the payment of a sort of sexton. 
 The church has recently been put into repair at a large outlay, 
 wholly at the expense of Mr. ]\Ioore. The Dissenters are 
 buried in the churchyard almost always, and nearly all are 
 married there ; some of them occasionally attend the church. 
 A great many are not decided Dissenters, they sometimes go 
 to church and sometimes to chapel. The churches in the 
 rural deanery are much improved of late years. In three, out 
 of fourteen, rates are not levied. In them the services are 
 carried on with much difficulty, the private persons who have 
 hitherto furnished the requisites for divine service, objecting 
 to provide thora any longer. They do not like to contribute 
 out of their own funds that, which the whole number should 
 share. The three parishes are Headcorn, Holden, and Sand- 
 hurst. They have been for some time in that state, one 
 nearly twenty years. Headcorn has been repaired by a pub- 
 lic subscription. In those parishes Dissenters are so de- 
 cided a majority, that if they had a power to exempt them- 
 selves by declaring their conscientious objections, there would 
 still remain a difficulty in collecting enough to keep the 
 churches in repair. In Holden and Sandhurst rates were 
 collected within a very few years. The opposition is quite 
 recent. In Headcorn a rate has been attempted only twice 
 in the last twelve years. Up to the present time the opposi- 
 tion to church rates has been increasing, but the feeling is 
 rather going the other way ; the principal cause being the 
 demanding rates for more moderate objects. Were the ob- 
 ject for which rates are made, limited by law to things abso- 
 lutely necessary, and of moderate amount, difficulties in making 
 rates would be to a great extent done away. To exempt 
 Dissenters would be unjust in practice, not because it ex-
 
 SET-ECT COMMITTEE ON THE ASSESSMENT 
 
 Rev. Ed- enipted individuals, but because it would exempt a certain 
 wardMoore. ^j^^q^j^^ ^f property. Were church rates abolished it would 
 be impossible to support the fabrics by voluntary contribu- 
 tions in country parishes. In nearly all the rural parishes, 
 without rates the churches would be out of repair, the per- 
 sons attending church would not subscribe enough, the ne- 
 cessary repairs would be apt to fall upon the shoulders of the 
 clergyman, and he would be very heavily taxed. The country 
 clergy could not bear such additional expense, bearing as they 
 do a very large proportion of the expenses of maintaining the 
 schools. The power to vote to levy a church rate does not 
 tend to keep alive a feeling of parochial action, or to create 
 an interest in church matters, nor does the payment of a rate 
 remind the payer of his obligation towards the Church. Vei-y 
 few persons attend the vestry meetings, where the rate is voted. 
 Unless the landlords take up the question, the churches of 
 the parishes in the rural deanery which have refused the rate 
 will certainly fall into decay. Two of them are large churches. 
 In the Weald of Kent, there are a large number of Dissen- 
 ters and meeting-houses in almost every parish. The chapel in 
 Frittenden is very rarely used, nor has ever been regularly, 
 it is private property, was substantially built, is rarely used, 
 and requires very little expenditure. In one parish, Oran- 
 brook, there is a district church. Rates are levied in the 
 parish : the district church is well supported by certain fami- 
 lies of wealth. Rates levied in a district should be applied to 
 the chvu'ch of the district. If the owners of property rated at 
 1 01. were rated instead of the occupiers, it would put an end 
 to a great deal of ill feeling about church rates. The contest 
 in Frittenden for a time excited ill feeling, but it is now 
 nearly at an end ; it occurred three months ago. Some of those 
 who voted against the rate have since expressed their regret : 
 it was quite a local affair and arose from some little personal 
 feeling. If the excitement were at an end, a large majority of 
 the clergy think that there would be no difficulty in collect- 
 ing the rate : very few have any difficulty now. Very few of 
 the Dissenters of Frittenden object to a moderate rate. In 
 the opposition to the rate several Dissenters voted in favour 
 of it. So long as the rate is required by law, the Dissenters
 
 AND LEVY OF CIIUHCII HATES. 63 
 
 are willing to pay, but they would not contribute to a volun- Rev. Ed- 
 tary fund. The opposition to legal rate is no evidence of ^ardMoore. 
 readiness to contribute to a voluntary fund. Non-opposition 
 arises from respect for the law. There is a difficulty in per- 
 suading people to contribute to a voluntary rate according to 
 their means. Many refuse, and others feci the injustice of 
 that refusal. They say, I will do my part if others will do 
 theirs, but those who are disposed to pay become indisposed 
 if others refuse. 1923—2025. 
 
 THE END. 
 
 GILBERT AND RIVINGTON, PRINTERS, ST. JOHN'S SQUARE, LONDON.
 
 
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