HEARINGS AT SEATTLE, WASH
The Seattle hearing of the American-Canadian Fisheries Conference was held in the Seattle Chamber of Commerce Rooms, beginning on April 24th, 1918, at 10:00 o'clock a. m.Opening Statement by Kon. William C. Redfield . ........................	5
Statement by Chief Justice John I). Bazen...............................	14
Statement by Hon. 'William C. Pedfield............................29-188
Statement by Mr. W. A. Lowmanj President of Washington Fisheries Assn., Anacortes, Wash...........34-137-170-235-242
Mr. E. S- McCord, Attorney, representing the Washington Fisheries Assn., et al............. 37-75-132-179-185-253
Mr. I. P. Babcock, Assistant F3sh Commissioner,
Victoria, B. C.......................................................70-200
Dr. H. M. Smith, Qommissioner of Fisheries of the United States .......................................................	82
Mr. W. A.	Found, Superintendent of Fisheries	of	Canada..... S5
Mr. Frank	Berry, President of American Purse	Seine
Fisheries League, Tacoma. Wash.......................................88-281
Mr. J. Jf Pet rich, Chairman of the Ex. Com. American Purse Seine Fishermens League, Tacoma, Wash. ...............................	125
Ur. L. H. Darwin, State Fish Commissioner........................143-252
Mr. Iver Thue, a fisherman, Seattle.....................................	168
Mr. Bobert k. Welsh, President of the Bellingham Canning Co . ,	Bellingham, Wash . ...........................	176
Mi. F. 2.	Watney, a purse seiner. Seattle, Wash..............	177
Mr. Ira D. Lundy, of the Salmon Bank Canning Co.,
Richardson, Wash.................................	.184-293
Mr. Frank M. Warren, Member of the Oregon Fish &
Game Commission, Portland, Ore.................................214-2:50-254
Commander Miller Freeman, Secy, of Washington Fisheries Assn., Seattle, Wash......................................252-275
Closing Statement by Hon. William 0. Bedfield . . . . ..................	273
CONTENTSMr. 1. C. Hughes, Vice Chairman of the Alaska Bureau of Fisheries, Seattle, Wash..............................	305
Hr. 'William Calvert, Jr., of the San Juan Fishing & Pkg. Co., Beattie, Wash...............................	351
Mr. C. J. Sebastian, of the Sebastian-Stuart Fisheries Co., Seattle, Wash....................................	370
Mr. Id^in J. Brown, Attorney, Seattle, Wash................	376HEARINGS AT SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
Seattle, Wash., April 24, 1918.
The Seattle hearing of the American-Canadian Fisheries Conference was held in the Seattle Chamber of Commerce assembly room, beginning at 10:00 a.m.
Present:	Hon.	W. C. Bedfield, Secretary of Commerce of
the United States, Hon. Edwin Fa Sweet, Assistant Secretary of Commerce of the "United States; Dr. H« Iff. Smith, Commissioner of Fisheries of the United itates; Hon. J. V. Hazen, Chief Justice of the Province of Hew Brunswick; Hon. Geo. J. Desbarats,
Deputy Minister of Naval Service of Canada; W. A. Pound, Esq., Superintendent of Fisheries of Canada; I. T. Quigley, Esq., Secretary of the American Delegation.
Among those in attendance at this hearing, in addition to the members of the American and Canadian delegations to the conference, were the following:
Andrae, P. J.; Canned salmon broker, Seattle.
Albers, Geo.; of Albers Bros. Billing Co., Beattie.
Babcock, 1. P.; Assistant Fishing Co/mr.issioner, Victoria, B.
Bayley, A13en C.; Attorney, Shelton, Wash.
Ballardie, A. W. ; representing California Pkg. Corporation, Seattle, Wash.
Berry, Frank; President of the American Purse-Seine Fish. League , Tac oma, Wash .Brown, Edwin James; Lawyer, Seattle, Wash.
Calvert, Wm., Jr.; representing the San Juan Fishing & Packing Co., Seattle, Wash.
Cantelow, H. C.; Assistant General Manager of the Pacific S. S. Co., Seattle, Wash.
Campbell, Daniel; a salmon packer, Bellingham, Wash.
Campbell, Dr. 0. representing the Union Fisheries &
Cold Storage, Seattle, Wash.
Carroll, John B.; Manager of the Sanitary Fishery,
Anac ortes, Wash.
Clark, VI. L. ; Secretary of the Association of Pacific Fisheries, Seattle, Wag}:.
Coyle, Frank; representing the lumo.i Bay Packing Co., Bellingham, Wash.
Collyer, Samuel; Seattle, Wash. (Beal Estate).
Cranford, ¥. I.; representing the Salt Sea Fisheries, Seattle, Wash.
Cunningham, P. H.; Chief Inspector of Fisheries,
New Westminster, la C.
Darwin, L. H.; State Fish Commissioner, Seattle, Wash.
Sllerbeck, H. S.; representing the West Coast racking Co., Seattle, Wash.
Farish, R. B.; Northwestern Manager of R. 2£. Cotter Co., Seattle, Wash.
Felger, W. W. ; Attorney, Seattle, Wash.
Pritchert, Carlton; representing the Post-Intelligencer, Seattle, Wash.
Freeman, Commander Filler; Secretary of the Washington
Fisheries Association, Seattle, Wash.
Gibson, John; Manager of the Fishing Vessel Owners Association, Seattle, Wash.
r>Gray* Steton H.; Editor of the Pacific Fisherman, Beattie.
Kadley, A. M.; Attorney, representing the Alaska Packers Association, and others, Bellingham, Wash.
Hadley, Hiram S.; Attorney, Beattie, Wash.
Harris, P.	a	salmon	canner, Seattle, ^ash .
Hill, Robert C.; Manager of Merchants Exchange, Seattle, Wash
Bvatum, 0. 0., Captain on fishing schooner MVansun,
Beattie, Wash.
Kendall, F. P.; General Manager of the American Can Co., Portland, Oregon.
Lang, J. C.; representing the national Grocery Co.,
Seattle, Wash.
Leehey, B. 3).; Lawyer, Seattle, l?ash.
lofjtan, Will A.; representing the Washington Fisheries Association, Anacortes, Wash.
Lundy, Ira D.; representing the Salmon Bank Canning Co., Bichardson, Wash.
Maddock, J.; representing the Glacier Fish Co., Tacoma, Wash.
McGhie, S. P.; President of the Everett Packing Co.,
Everett, 'Wash.
McCord, 2. S.; Lawyer, representing the Washington Fisheries Assn.} and others, Seattle, Wash.
McPherson, J. L.; Secs^tary of the Alaska Bureau, Chamber of Commerce, Seattle, Wash.
Morris, J. 0.; Manager of the Everett Packing Company, Everett, Wash.
Kunly. M. G.; Attorney and Secretary of the Thlinket Packing Co., and others, Portland, Oregon.
Norman, F. I.; Commercial Agent of the Grand Trunk Pacific B a ilway, Seattle, Wash .
Palmer, Pussell; Manager of the Pacific Fisherman.,
Seattle, Wash.Petricto, J. J.; Chairman. Ex Com. American Purse Seine Fisherman© League, Tacoma, Wash.
Fratt, E. L., Sr. ; representing the Pybus Bay Fish & Packing Co., Seattle, Wash.
Harwell, E.; President & Manager of the American Packing Co., Everett, Wash.
Rica, John E.; representing the Lummi Bay Packing Co.,
Belli ngha/n, Wash.
Head. K. L.; a fisher/nan, Cordova, Alaska.
Sebastian, C. J,; representing the Sebastian-Stuart Fisheries Co., Seattle, Wash.
Seeley, £. C.; representing the West Coast Packing Co., Seattlej Wash.
Smith, Kf G., Seattle, Wash. (Fishing & Buyer).
Smith, Louis Assistant Manager of the National Independent Fisheries Co., Seattle, Wash.
Sutter, H.; Seattle, Wash, (Fish & Binlng) .
Thue, Iver ; a fisherman, Seattle, Wash.
¥arren, Frank IS.; Member of the Oregon Fish & Game Commission, Portland, Oregon.
Watney, S.	a purse seiner, Seattle, Wash.
Welsh, Robt. A.; President of the Pellingham Canning Co.,
Belli ngham, Wash.
7/ilkins, F. L.; County Game Warden, Seattle, Wash.
fright, Frank; representing the Carlisle Packing Co., Seattle, Wash.OPENINGS- SfAfEMff BY HON. WILIIAK 0. BEDFJ1X$*
SSCKEX'BY HEBF1KLD:	The meeting will please oorj©
to order.
The American-Canadian Fisheries Conference, gentlemen, which now holds its first session in Seattle, is an official representative of the two governments of the United States and of the Dominion of Canada, it was appointed at the suggestion of the government of the United States in the thought that ought to be able, by frank discussion and by careful inquiry upon the spot, to consider all the questions, large and small, which had been in any measure causing friction between the two countries in the past and agree upon a method of mutual co operation, mutual concession and mutual living, if we may put it so, for the future.
The conference held its opening sessions in the City of Washington, followed by hearings in the City of Boston, in Gloucester, Massachusetts, and later in St. John, Hew Brunswick. from St. John it adjourned upon the 6th of February to meet here.
The plans of the conference are necessarily flexible. We are here to do what is necessary to be done to thresh out these international questions as fully as possible. we ought not to spend, as you know quiteas well as 1, an unnecessary boar absent from our posts of duty in this time of war- Therefore we feel that —-not we, hut the circumstances with which you are as familiar as we.require us to ask not only you tut all interested in this matter to place the facts before the conference as fully as is necessary, but as briefly as is possible.
Our general plan is that after preliminary hearings today and tomorrow in Seattle we shall go north, stopping at Victoria, passing on to Prince Rupert, to Ketchikam, returning to Vancouver and returning a^e. in to Seattle, where further hearings will at that time be held if it shall prove necessary and desirable to do so.
We wish to obtain facts rather than opinion, but if opinions, with them the facts on which opinions rest.
Our experience so far has teen altogether happy. We have discussed with entire frankness in localities where con-trovery has raged for a hundred and forty years the problems with which that controversy dealt, and thus far there has teen, I think* no exception to the fact of an agreement by common consent.
It is ray duty to lay before you the point of view of the conference and to ask you to give careful thought to it. This conference cannot be local in its character, it must be nation wide; its viewpoint cannot be considered even single nation wide, but must take into account the mutual relations of two great peoples. It is as broad asthe continent,; its outlook must reach necessarily from the waters of the Arctic to thf boundaries of Mexico, from the Pacific to the Atlantic, we deal with a subject, not in its relations to any one, or two, sr ten courts, not in its relations alone to one coast or the other, but in its relations to the whole people of the United States*
In placing before us any statement it is only fair you should recognize that the American delegation is thinking of a hundred millions of people, and their interests; not chiefly the interests of any city, of any trf.de, of any business, of any profession, or of any walk in life# but of the whole nation, and all this subject as it relates to it. I have no reason to doubt, and I verily believe, that my Canadian colleagues feel the same way as regards their own great people.
Again, this matter must be looked at from another standpoint which differentiates it fery sharply from any possibility of merely local and particular interests •The nation's food supply is insufficient. I want that fact to be made perfectly plain to you. lour wives all know it in prices they pay. The food supply of the united States for the first time in our history proved to be insufficient. lone of you ever saw before what you now are accustomed to seeing, the calls to eat less and to give up eating certain things. ye must consider this whole subject, therefore from the standpoint from which it never has been considered before, namely, its relation to an insufficientfood supply for the entire country* That is obligatory upon us. We should he derelict to our duty if that should not he foremost foremost —- in our thought. Hoy/ to obtain the largest food supply for the future as well as for the present is necessarily s question of supreme importance to us now. In a measure	I	think	that is true
of our friends in Canada.	We know	it	is "bitterly trge
of the people of the United	States.
Those few points it is	my duty	to	place	before you
and to ask that, so far as you can, you address what you have to say to the conference along those lines, for the conference is bound in duty and in honor to consider t tie® chiefly along those lines. Here is not, gentlemen, as a supreme purpose the interest of any business; here is as a supreme purpose the food supply of the United states.
It is, however, our earnest belief that that which is to the best advantage of the people of the whole country and their food sup ly cannot fail to be of the largest permanent advantage to the business upon which that food supply in a very large measure depends.
When the conference began it3 sessions in the City of Washington the situation as regards the relation between Canada and the United states were as ft.ey had been for a number of long years before. They are now, I am happy to say, quite radically altered. In a brief portion of the conference held in the City of Boston it became evi-dent that there was a memory* minor indeed, but yet important, relating to the fisheries of Lake Champlain. The subject was placed before us very candidly by the authorities of the states concerned, and without definite action on the part of the conference itself the authorities of Canada very courteously took the initiative in removing, by an Order in Oouncil, dated February 18, 1918, the embarrassing conditions which had theretofore existed. Shortly thereafter it ms obvious to us that the existing rules of the United otatesmgovemment in operation chiefly upon the Atlantic Ooast, but in a measure also upon the pacific* were obstructing the free movement of the food supply of our country, that our navigation laws as they were used and enforced were operating to make the food of the United States cost more and to make it sore difficult to get. ifLso that the procedure required was not in any broad sense equitable. Secondly, that the approval of the president of the United States, Department of ‘Commerce, issued an order on February 20, 1918, which appears in the printed record of the conference, and which permits* during the period of the war, Canadian vessels to come from the fishing banks direct to American ports and to go from American ports direct to the fishing banks. That has not been the rule in the past; it is the rule no?/. It must, I am sure, be entirely obvious that the public officer who permittedany course to continue which in any measure# no matter what interests were concerned, increased the cost of or delayed the movement of the food supply of the United States at this juncture, would he gravely aerelict. And this action was taken because it was right and because the necessities of the food supply of the country required it to be so. It has teen definitely extended,by special interpretation, to the Lakes and to every portion of the waters contiguous to the boundaries of the two nations.
There had been in the hearings further very candid discussion of the operation of what is known as the modus provendi between Canada and the united states. % think in every place we visited this subject was freely and frankly discussed by every interested concern* the captains of the vessels, and the men who sailed on them* the owners of the vessels^ the packers, the men doing incidental work with fisheries products.
fhere appeared in that testimony certain minor suggestions. For example, when the proposition wss before the conference that the amount to be paid for the annual license in Canadian ports should be reduced to a nominal sum, it appeared here end there among the captains that they saw no reason why there should be any license at all* In like manner certain other minor9 but still important, ttings were discussed in the frank talks before the conference.
10After the United States government had acted, following the kindly lead of the Canadian authorities, in the matter of Lake Champlain, an Order in Council Vvras issued, which will shortly he put into the official record, under date of itaroh 89 1918; and 1 call and take great pleasure . in calling special attention of the gentlemen present not only to what was done, hut to the very broad and very generous spirit in which it was done e- nci to certain details of the doing, which£ 1 am frank to say, were quite unerpeet-ed by the authorities of the United States. Wot only was the major question at issue frankly granted, but every minor matter which bad been mentioned was also granted, even though they had not boon pressed. And 1 am very happy to put upon the record in addition that as an act of intemat ional and kindly courtesy, quite unexpected and most gratefully received.because of its generous spirit, by the President of the United states, was the final statement in that Order of Council that the fee which had been paid by our officials prior to the bringing up of the matter for discussion should be refunded to them so far as they had been paid during the present calendar year. I wish to acknowledge the spirit of equity and of courtesy involved in this,unasked, on the part of the Canadian authorities.
V;e are nowhere, gentlemen* to get your viewpoint on all the matters, not one matter, relating to the fisheries*I observe with regret that the Morning journal states that we are here for the subject of considering the salmon matter. I am glad to say we are here for that purpose, but we are here for other purposes also. lo one who has any interest in this whole broad subject, in any of its forms, but should feelthat we are here to hear what he has to say- We do not desire to confine ourselves to any single thing, but we wish to oover, so fa- as we may, all phases, large and small, and all sides of every phase, so far as that may be practical.
I may say also that if you do not raise certain questions which are in the minds of the conference, or at least some of its members, we shall not hesitate to raise them ourselves. fhere is nothing to be left untouched if we can find out what it is, and we shall expect to ask you questions as direct and plain as you can in regard to what you say, and shall expect entire frackA ness in the answers.
I may say to you that in our discussions thus far it has proven often to be the case that many matters strongly held and vigorously controverted have been found to be more imaginary than real when placed frankly on the boards, with both parties to the controversy present and stating their case. It has been our pleasure on the Eastern Ooast to have representatives of the American courts go with us to the Canadian courts and there take part in the hearings. When at Vancouver I would be morethan glad if any representative of any interest here will go there also $nd be resent and take part freely. I shall be very glad indeed to invite, and 1 do invite, any representative that the interests of Seattle may select to go upon the steamer which takes us Sorth and be present at the hearings in Prince Bupert and in Ketchikan*. tn order that he may see for himself what is there said and may correct any errors of thought or statement that are there made, and we shall not hesitate to ask the gentleman from Canada to come hither when we return also*
I wish to express to you my sentiments of the courtesy of the Canadian delegation of this body in attending all the hearings in the United States, It is almost9 if not
(juite3 a unique case wherein an international matter of
i
this kind both sides took part in all hearings in all countries. That has itself teen most beneficial.
And finally, gentlemen, -- 1 know you are waiting for the word —- and finally, gentlemen, this:	Those
who sit around this table facing you have their sons fighting on t e same field of battle. The gentleman at my right, the gentleman at my left and myself.
They are side by side* By the special Act of our own government, in which 1 heartily rejoice, American regiments are brigaded with British regiments on the field of battle;American troops are serving under English generals and under French generals. I should he glad and proudso high and fine has been the record of the Canadian troops abroad, if American troops could he brigaded with the Canadian troops* (Applause). iVe are here, gentlemen, for the first time for one of the few phases of this great contest # with a sincere desire, which I know our Canadian friends have, to reach a common basis of common cooperation, and with a sincere desire on our part to come to that same and happy result* But *»e cannot, gentlemen, keep apart on minor things, on material things, which our boys are giving the great sacrifice on the same field against a common foe.
I call upon Chief Justice Lasen.	(Applause).
ST Al'KHiiHT BY OR IKE JUSTICE EASE 3.
GEI.fP JUSTICE HASH:	Fr.	Secretary	Eedfield	and
gentlemen:
It is hardly necessary for me to say anything after the admirable introductory remarks that have been m«de by the Secretary a Commerce. Perhaps, fcowev r, I might properly occupy a few minutes in pointing out a little more in detail than Secretary Eedfield has done the steps that led up to the appointment by the government of the United States and t he government of Canada of the jointcommission which is now holding its first meeting in this modern and progressive and splendid City of Seattle.
;? he only rights wh i c h Arne r i o an fish lag vessels had in porta in Canada were the rights that were secured to them under the treaty of 1818, and under the terms of that treaty the fishing vessels of the United States could enter Canadian ports for four purposes. Those purposes were, the purpose of having repairs made to their vessels, for shelter from the storms, for the obtaining of wood and the obtaining of water. And those four purposes, the shelter, repairs, wood and water were the only purposes for which American fishing vessels could enter ports in Canada, and they could not enter for any otter purpose whatever* They could not enter to purchase goods, they could not enter for the purpose of selling their fishs or of sending their fish, in bona, through Qanads into the united States, or for the purpose of shipping crews, for the purpose of purchasing bait, or for any purpose except the four purposes which 1 have mentioned, and which were secured to then under the treaty of 1818. fell, as time developed, as the relations between the two countries became more close and more intimate, it was naturally felt that there should be some extension in some way or other of those privileges, and the result was that something overthirty years ago commissioners were appointed by both countries, and they framed a treaty which provided that in this change for the free admission of Canadian fish into the markets of the United States that Canadian port8 would be open to trie fishermen of the United 3tales practically on the same terms and conditions as they were to British subjects. Tbe commissioners had reached that treaty, but unfortunately or otherwise, that treaty was not ratified by the Congress of the United States, But while the matter was being considered by tbe Congress of the United States, and pending its final decision, and under the belief that the Congress would approve the treaty as agreed to by the commissioners at t tat t ime* the government of Canada passed an Act under which it had the power to grant licenses, spoken of as modus prevendi licenses to American fishermen who desired to use Canadian ports.
Under that legisl tion licenses weregranted to American fishermen to come into Canadian ports for the purposes, not only of obtaining shelter, and repairs, and wood and water, but f.Isq for the purpose of shipping crews, of shipping tbeir _ish through Canada into the United States in bond, of purchasing bait9 and of purchasing other supplies, and for taiat privilege fishermen of the United states paid a license fee of one collar and a half, dependent upon the size of the registered vessel that was taking out this license. That, as I say, was regarded simply as a temporarymeasure, simply pending the time when this treaty would he ratified by the Congress of the United states. It was rot ratified* but ever since then, year after year* the government of Canada has gone on issuing these modus provendi licenses to Amerio n vessels. fhere has been nothing permanent about it whatever. It was absolutely within the right of the Canadian government to cease doing so any time it pleased. It was done year by year, year by year; the right to grant these licenses was renewed by Order of Councils and so this has gone on year by year for & period of over thirty years, and during which time9 ox course# conditions in the fishing industry, as in every other industry of human activity*have very much changed and very much altered*
low, a few years ago t he government of the united states introduced a new tariff under which fish was placed upon the free list. And after this had been done the authorities at Washington had communicated with the authorities at Ottawa and suggested that if Canada was getting what it aimed to get at the t ime9 from the initiation of the treaty, and which had failed, namely, the admission of the fishing industry into the markets of the United States# it be only fair and proper that Canada should grant the United States those privileges in its ports which it was prepared to grant thirty years ago if the concession of free fish had been agreed to.They further pointed out that the modus proven&i licenses only applied*to vessels propelled by sail. 4nd dur ing t he past t hirty years aondit ions have changed bo there is scarcely a fishing vessel today that in not j rope lied by steam or gasoline, or by some other power of that descript, ion, and in the limiting of the modus pro vend i licenses to vessels that are propelled by wind power simply, had the effect of reducing its benefit very greatly to the vessels of the United states engaged in the fishing industry and that wanted to use the ports in Canada for d i f f e rent purp o se s.
In answer to that # and I cannot refer to the correspondence„ we pointed out that the placing of fish upon the free list was simply a matter of domestic policy on the part of the government of the united Statess that it had no permanency,, it wasn’t like when entering into a treaty for a certain length of time* but it was a matter of policy and was open to the government of the united States at any time it saw fit to reverse that policy and to place fish again upon the dutiable list and to place such duties as perhaps would have the effect of excluding our fish from the markets of the United States,
i^nd we further pointed out that many things had happened during the past thirty ears, that Canada had grown and developed, and was growing and developing, andthat the American market for our fish was not, so far as Eastern Canada is concerned, of the same necessity to us that it had teen thirty years ago, because we developed new markets ourselves, we were sending fish to the western portions of Canada, our people were using qjore fish than previously, and we were also sanding fish, during the war, in large quantities, to Ore t Britain, and that all those matters were matters that involved considered ion.
And the result of all this controversy between Ottawa and Washington was that, finally the government of the United States suggested that a joint commission should be appointed that would take up a consideration of this question, and not only of this Question, 'hut all other out standing questions in which fisheries were concerned between Canada and the United States. That is the reason of the appointment of this commission.
Slow, the commission has dealt with the questions stout the ports on the Atlantic Coast. l'e found that while our fish were admitted free of duty into the market's of the United States, at the same time restrictions were placed upon our vessels taking the fish there, that our vessels could not clear from the fishing grounds and go right into the United states markets and sell a catch of fish. It first had to go into a Canadian port. There it had to transfer its catch to a trading vessel, ortake out its vessel as,a trading vessel, then it couldgo to tbe United States and sell this fish caught upon the
high seas. f hen having disposed of its catch in the
united States it aould not clear from the united States
to the fishing grounds again, but first of all had to clear
for e Canadian port, and then from that- port proceed to
the fishing grounds. And it was suggested that if we
threw open our markets to the United States vessels, allow-
own
ing them to come and go as our vessels do, dispensing with these modus provendi licenses, or rather with the fee that was charged for the same, it would only be a fair and equitable thing that the United States should allow our vessels, with their catches of fish, to go directly to their ports end to clear directly from their ports to the high seas.
In dealing with this question at Boston and at St. Jo hn we were dealing w ith ques ti ons that we re a source of Irritation and venation from the time of the Declaration of Independence, because the fishery question on the Atlantic Coast has been a source, ss I said, of irritation and yexation to the people of both countries.
I am delighted to say that in the conferences we held, not only on the part of the gentleman with whom I am so utterly associated as representatives of this great countryft but on the part of those who came before us to give their views and to furnish us with data upon the fishing interestsof Gloucester and Boston, of the men who owned the vessels,
of the mm who sail the vessels, of the men engaged in the fish trade, and the same, 1 think my friend Mr. Bedfield wifi say, is true of those whom we met in Canada, in dealing with this question 1 am delighted to say that on the part of everybody there was a disposition to meet the question fairly, and, if possible* to get rid of the troubles that had existed; and I believe that that disposition was made all the stronger because of the fact referred to b;
Hr. Eedfield, that the United states and Canada today p.re side by side fighting for the maintenance of those principles of democracy that are so dear and near to the heart of every man who speaks the English tongue and who lives on this continent or on the British isles. low, the result of that was, I think, that misapprehensions of a hundred years were removed.
he found in Gloucester a fear that if these restrictions I refer to in the United States oourt were removed there was great danger of the fishing industry being removed to „ntario and other places in Canada, and that Boston and Gloucester would suffer; and they believed this would he the case because they said that it was so much cheaper to outfit the vessels in Canada, to build vessels in Canada* and the wages were so much less in Canada. They wore speakingof events as they were twenty-five and thirty years ago ; they forgot changes had taken place. By absolute facts and figures we were shown not only had it cost quite as
much to outfit a vessel in Canada as in the United states ----------
I am referring to the Atlantic --- not only had it cost quite as much to outfit a vessel in Canada as in the United itates, but in some oases the post' of supplies and the wages are higher that are paid on the Atlantic provinces of Canada than are paid in the States of the United States bordering on the Atlantic seaboard. Those matters were all fully discussed with the disposition on the part of everybody, and the desire on the part of everybody to remove the source of irritation and vesation, and as a result of tnose conferences today9 as a temporary measure it is true, a war measure it is true9 but one which I trust will become a permanent measure after this conference has finished its report s.
The Atlantic Coast today, as a result of these deliberations, fully approved, I believe, by the people of tie states on the Atlantic and the people on the Atlantic provinces of Canada, that they are fully approved on both sides, I believe, although there are some on both sides who think t eir individual interests may have suffered to soEe extent; however, I think with the approval of the greatmajority of all the people that we have all those restrictions removed, and for the first time, I think, since the Declaration of Independence, there is no reason why there should he the slightest irritation or the slightest feeling so far as the fisheries are concerned, or ports are concerned, between the people of Canada and the people of the United States.
fhat port question is one that is to he dealt with here, too, on the Pacific. :fhe Order in Council passed allowing American vessels to go to Canadian ports applies in the same way as on the Atlantic Coast. Mr. Redfield has some letters on the subject which no doubt he will later on resd to the 0-ommissi on. ae want to get the facts on that question from the concerns here both in the United States end in Canada.
Further, on the Pacific, there is a question of preservation of the Fraser River, which is a question of utmost and supreme importance. Matters can go on as they are, although in the future years there will be no fisheries on the Fraser giver.
The Eraser Hiver is the breeding ground of the socfc-eye salmon on this coast, an industry that is of value yet, but that has been of greater value in the pasi and should be of greater value in the future regarding the food that exists and will exist if that fishery can be preserved.The preservation of that fishery is of interest to Canada, it is of greater interest to the people of the United states, because my information is that about t^o-thirds of the sock-eye salmon catoh is caught in the United states, about one-third is caught in Canada, in spite of the fact that those fish are £red and produced upon the Fraser River9 which is wholly within the Dominion of Canada.
How, starting with the proposition that is a desirable fishery to continue, that it is desirable in the interest of the people of both countries that that fisheries should he preserved, we want to know what the views of the people in Canada and the United states ar. as to what steps should be taken for its preservation.
In order to save it from destruction I believe that
very ---- to use a word perhaps a little too strong, tut a
word that may not be too strong--------- 1 think very drastic
steps will have to be taken in the course of a few years.
If things are allowed to go on as they are there will be no sockeye fishery, and the fisheries of the Eraser will be depleted, as have been the fisheries of other greet rivers running into the waters of the pacific Ocean and waters running into t he Atlantic Ocean too. It isaquestier, r think, that ought to be approached with calmness, and with fairness, and with moderation by everybody who iR interestedin fc bat sockeye fishery; these who are not only interested in it who are engaged in the cennery business or the fishery business, but the people of the whole country are interested in it9 for t be people of t he whole country are interest*, ed in the conservation of our food supplies and of everything that will add to our food supplies in this country, no matter in what part of the country.
There are, therefore, two questions that we have to determine, that we have tooonsider; One the question of the rights of American and Canadian vessels, fishing vessels, in the ports of the other country; the other a question of t tie preservation of the salmon in t he Fraser Biver.
There is another question that we would be very glad to have information upon, too. ?hat is with regard to the halibut fisheries. Toe halibut today are quite outside of territorial waters. They cannot be oontrolred b legislation either by the United states, or one of its states, or by the government of Canada. Everybody has a right to fish in the high seas. And these halibut are today caught going further north all the time, I understand, outside of territorial waters, and there is a very great danger, if they are fished to the extent that has been in the past, that in time to come9 a not very distant
day either, the halibut fisheries will have disappeared almost as the buffalo has disappeared off the plains of the lorthwest.
jfow* it will have to be a matter for international arrangement. It is a matter for consideration* It is a matter of the very greatest importance. And while it is not a question that is an outstanding fishing difficulty between Canada and the United States, yet at the same time we would be very glad wherever we are to hear views of any of those who come before us regarding what ought to be done for the preservation of this great halibut industry, It is important, of course, that these fish be preserved and should be conserved. It is far more important that ell sources of friction and difficulty between Canada and the United States should be removed, fe found that the view of the people along the Atlantic Coast on both sides of the international boundary line,
Mr. Bedfield has stated that we would be delighted if a representative of the fishing industry here would accompany us to Prince Rupert and to other places in Canada. Let me endorse the invitation extended by Mr. Bedfield and say that in Canada we will be delighted if your representatives will come to the meetings that we hold there^ and if statements are made that you do not a]|rove of that you will ask questions about them for the purpose of elicitinginformation.
When we were at St, John, in the province of Hew Brunswick* we were accompanied by two gentlemen from Gloucester* one of them president of the Gloucester Board of Trade* and the other a gentleman from largely interested concerns &n the fisheries of that important fishing center,
Those gentlemen attended our meetings at St. John and heard what our Canadian representatives had to say, some of ?/hom were very strongly opposed to any such agreement as had teen entered into, telieving, I think, without causes without fair cause for appreh 3nsion that it would be very injurious to Canadian fishing interests, just as certain gentlemen at Gloucester thought the same arrangement would be very injurious to certain fisheries interests in the United States. But the result of the visit to St. John and to the hearing of the Canadian representation by these gentlemen from Gloucester, and the Board of Trade* and Mr. Smith, I am told, had a very far-reaching effect on the people of Gloucester and a great deal to do to cause the feeling of approval which has been manifested in that community as a result of that conference. And 1 have9 therefore, very great pleasure in endorsing the invitation of Secretary Redfield and saying to you, you will receive a hundred thousand welcomes if you will come to Canada, we will be delighted to have you present at any meetings we willhold at Vancouver or Prince Bupert, or any other port in Canada, and give you every opportunity of making your views known there. Io doubt any arrangement that is oome to will not meet with your universal approval or universal favor. 1 have no doubt there are people in this country who would condemn any arrangement that would be named * too; there will be people in Canada who will think their interests are sacrificed by the Canadian commissioners. But in taking the broad view taken by Secretary Bedfield, and the view, 1 think, we ought to take today^ our main object should be to take such steps as will preserve fisheries, as will promote goodwill between the two countries, and as will remove the sources of irritation that have existed for bo many years past. It was from that standard as viewed on the Atlantic, and 1 feel quite sure it will be viewed from the same broad standard on the pacific.,
Secretary Bedfield has referred to the fact that today it is especially desirable that we should remove any causes of irritation or friction because our sons and your sons are fighting together on the battlefields in Glanders snd France in support of the sacred cause of democr-dy. Your sons and my eons will lay down their lives, as one of my sons has already, for that great cause, and as the war proceeds day by day the casualty lists will come in until in the United States it will beas it is in Canada, where there is today scarcely a famil: in the land that hasn't had a son or near relative who has been killed or wounded, or a prisoner in the hands of the Germans. we are fighting together in that seme cause, the same cause of democracy free lorn and liberty liberty that has been bo dear to the hearts of the people of this great republic. And it is* therefores I say, of the utmost' importance that all difficult ies should be wiped out between us, all sources of irritation should disappear^ so that in the days that follow the declaration of peaced that peace which we all demand, we will have one purpose on the forth Americ n continent, to devote our whole energies to building up the most ha?-py community e.nd the most prosperous commu ity and times the world has ever experienced or known. (Applause)*
«
3f ATLUiKT BY EDI. WILLIM 0. KBDPIELD.
SKOISfRHY BEBFXBM:	Gentlemen,	let	me	suggest	that
tbore of you who may desire to do so arrange* If it is possible9 to place any written statements or briefs before the Conference.ty tomorrow night --- have them reproduced for each member of the Conference -------- the object
being that we may take them with us upon our journey north ward, wher , upon the steamer, we shall have ample time to consider the® carefully nd iisouss them, and upon ourreturn here to consider them in your presence. If you will he kina enough to do that rather than to attempt now to read written statements use shall he grateful to you. ive don't want any limit, of course, understand me. It is for the purpose of considering the written statements more carefully* not lees carefully, that we made this suggest ion to you.
furthermore, I ought to add to the invitation that whoever you may decide --- and we trust you may decide favorably —- to send forth with us will be the guest of the Department of Commerce on board the steamer and will not be out any expense because of the .journey*
I now wish to read correspondence,, which will speak for itself. The portion of the papers 1 will read are already in the printed recordg but not in the connected form in which they now appear.
May I say that the printed hearings on the Atlantic Coast with the exhibits attached thereto and the offioial papers of both governments have been printed and an asple supply of them is on the way here. fe got one advance copy, by special delivery mailed without covers. Others are on the way, and by the time we return there will be an ample supply for anyone who may desire them. You make cure, Mr. Quigley, the supply is sufficient, will you not? KH. QUIGLEY:	Yes,	sir.
31.CaaTAKY BKRH1.LD:	Letter	dated	April	1st, 1918.{p he 1et t e r fol1owe).
depart sent of State Washington
April 19 1918.
The Honorable
f he Secretary of Commerce.
C i r *
* I have the honor to enclose herewith, for your information, a copy of a note from the British Ambassador dated Marsh 19. 1918, in which the Ambassador informs me of the action of the Privy Council of Canada on March 8, under the War Measures Act, which relates to the privileges to be enjoyed by United states fishing vessels in Canadian ports,
1 have the honor to h@9 8irs
lour obedient servant,
For the Secretary of State:
Tremles Polly Counselor.fl
^British Embassy Washington
Maroh 19, 1918.
air:
Xhe United States 3ecxet&ry of 0orameroe, in a letter dated February 21st* , was so good as to inform the Honourable John Douglas Hazen, trie chief Justice of lew Brunswick Rnd first Canadian delegate to the American Canadian fisheries Conference, that the following order had been sent out to the Cubtoms Goliectors of the United States;
eTo promote the vigouroua prosecution of tne war and to make the utmost use jointly of all the resources of the nations now co-oper?ting, you will permit, during the war, Canadian Fishing vessels and those of other nations now acting with the United
roStates to enter from and clear for the high seas and the fisheries, disposing of their catch and taking on supplies, stores, etc. under supervision* as in tbe oasa of merchant vessels entering and clearing for foreign ports, except as to tonnage tax and other charges specifically imposed on entry from and clearance for foreign ports®s
1 am now in receipt of a despatch from the Governor General of Canada, in which Eis RRK-oellenoy requests me to inform you that a minute of the privy Council, approved by the Governor General on March 8th under the far Measures Act, provides as follows:
fDuring trie war, United states fishing vessels, in addition to their treaty rights and privileges, sha11 be permit ted to enter'any port in Canada, without the requirement of a license, or the payment of fees not charged to Canadian fishing vessels,, for any of the following purposes;
(a) The purchase of bait, ice, nets lines, coal, oil, provisions and all other supplies and outfits used by fishing vessels whether the same are of a like character to those named in this section or not:
( b) Impairing fishing implements;
(q) Dressing end salting their catches on board ship;
(d)	She shipping of crews;
(e) The transhipment of their catches;
(f) R he sale thereof locally or on payment of the duty.*
The Canadian Minister of the fCaval service has further recommended that the fees paid on licenses already taken out for the present calendar year be remitted*
I have the honor to be^
with the highest consideration* Sir,
Your most obedient9 hum!1e servant9
BEADIMS.*
I now have an original letter addressed to me by the British Ambassador, dated April 1st, 1318, which
<r O
sj3will he Eiade a portion of the record. (f he letter follows )e
nAprII 1, 1918.
By dear Mr. secretary:
I understand that you recently caused informal enquiries to be made of hr. lobert-son aa to whether the new Canadian regulations in regard to the treatment of United 3tales fishing vessels in Canadian ports# during the period of the war, superseded the Order in Council of January 12th which provided for the purchase of bait and the landing of fish by foreign vessels in the ports of British Columbia*
I immediately communicated with the Government of Canada and have now received e reply to the effect that the Order in Counoil of Mareh 81h applies equaliy to both the Atlantic and pacific coasts and therefore supersedes the Order in Council of January iSth, It will not be compulsory for vessels which purchase bait in British Columbia to return to ports in that Province with catches made from such bait.
Believe me, my dear Mr, secretary,
Very sincerely yours. HSABUra.
he Eonouratie
i illiais C. Redfiel6, etc., etc., e t c« n
Mr. Robertson, the first Secretary of the British Ambassador, was the Secretary of the Canadian Delegation of this Conference. I regret that Mr. Hobertson is not prosen t. He has been, 1 am glad to say for his sake, and regret to say for the American pelegstion, Ur. Sobertson has been, promoted to an important diplomatic post in the Banish Embassy and is unable to behere.
fhese papers will now be made a part of the record of the Conference.
Gentlemen, the Conference will be glad to hear any views that you may now care to present upon any phase of the questions that have been suggested* or upon any others that we may not nave thought of. We desire, for the sake of clearness of thought ourselves* to keep the larger phases separate*, that is to say, it would seem to us wise not to ml% the discussion if it aan be avoided. Therefore with that single suggestion we should be glad to take up the mattersyou have in mind as you wish them to be taken up, adhering, so far as we may* to the subject you introduce u til we have talked it out, or at least have said all we can say for the presentB and then passing to another.
Re await your pleasure, gentlemen.
aTAT^KlTT BY U. A* LGVUS, PItESIDEHT OF TEE
i or nmsKOM assdcxasxgvj; ahagohtss, wash.#
MR. LOivkAN:	Mr. Secretary and our distinguished
guests. Rhen, in 1913, Dr. Benton, head of the Bureau of Food Research, made the statement to me that within fifty years, with present methods of product ion and pro-b ble increase of population, that the Unitad States ¥.ould be a food importing nation it struck me as a shook, but now, with only 25,000,000 e.xtra mouths to feed, and I think that is the goal we have set for ourselves at this t ime, we find that the shortage is already here. It brings borne to us the questions upon which we as individuals know more and are more deeply and personally interested.
In this matter I represent an association which has to deal with one of the very minor matters at stake at this time* the sockeye fisheries of the Fraser fishing district. It isn’t my int e nt i on to sa y more than this, we were accorded a hearing before the sub-committee at 'Victoria. We were there permitted to say oar entire say. Prior to that time we had had confer-ences with our friends and neighbors across the line, f© had felled to arrive at a definite agreement. We recognize the absolute necessity of one of two things^ the fishing out for the period of the war by any interest whatever that may desire to do so to produce the foode or the conservation for the future of the Fraser fisheries. as men who must look forward to Rhe well-being of our children, we prefer to look forward to the rreeervation. To that end we made certain proposals. The proposals it is our intention, at the request of Dr. Smith, during the day toback up by statistics from those concerns which more nearly represent actual conditions on Puget Sound than any other source of information that could be obtained, that is, all of the larger and older fisheries industries, give in detail the results of their operations. Unfortunately,
Dr. imith, although you requested it last night, we were usable, on account of the non-arrival of some of the more important ones, to get that for you this morning but we pledge it to you this afternoon.
Primarily, though* we wish at this time to state that the spokesman for the Washington Fisheries Association will be Mr. S. 3. McCord, who, as a member of our Association, is probably better fitted than any other man on the American side of the line to discuss:, from our viewpoint and from what; we deem to be a wise, general viewpoint9 than any other man in our community. I have no more to say on the question at this time except that which Hr. kcCord vail say and the printed briefs which wi11 be suhmi11ed.
We accept your invitation £ nd will be present in person or by proxy at the me.-ting at Vancouver, I thank you*
3aC..a!*Ai\Y EISDi? 1 KID:	Very glad t o know t hat fact 9
Kr. Lowman.STATEiffiF? BY US. K. S. KoOOHD, ATTOHFKY,
BKPELSSjrEIKG -Hr WASH I® OT OK FI3HEBIE'1 A .'OOIATIOK, *B«
OTHKK IHl’BKiSTS.
CHIEF JUSTICE EA3ESs You are appearing as repre-ser.tet iv* of the ..AShir.gton -’ist-ories Association, Hr.
KoQord?
HR- KoCORI):	X suppose bo, ref resent In© them in
part * and representing other interests for which I appear as attorney- 1 hardly know in what capacity, hut I as the attorney for a number of the larger i ishing interestsengaged in the tanning of salmon on Puget Sound and in Alaska* and have been for a number of years*
I think that everybody engaged in the canning and fisting business on Puget sound endorse everything that Mr* Justice hazen and the distinguished Secretary has said*
We are all desirous of accomplishing t he same result; that is, we are all exceedingly anxious to preserve the fishing
industry of the Fraser 5iver and of the Sound and elsewhere
£ <■*
for future generations and for t he food d£ rfhe nation and of the world.
In recent years it Las become apparent that there has teen a constant depletion of salmon on puget dound, that is, it- aockeye salmon* which has its habitat in toe Fraser Biver.particularly in the year 1917 was this made manifest. „e had Lad probably the largest ran and the largest oatoh in 1915 of any year since 1*01, and probably one of the largest, snd I think the largest, in the aistory of the business ----- probably not the largest run, but the largest
catch.	I here had been an increase of fishing gear in
1313, which probably accounted for the larger catch, but, nevertheless, the sookeye salmon ran in hordes end the catch was unprecedented. According to the natural course of events, four years after, the year 1917, should have been equally as large a year, because, as all of you gentlemen know, fish run in cycles of four years, and we have one of those years known as the ,fbig year** That occurred in 1913 and should have occurred in 19170 but it failed to
eventuate. What the cause of it was no man can say with
un
accuracy or certainty, but 1 think it was donetedly due to two causes. First, we had been catching too many fish on the Sound and in the Fraser, but the most important reason for the failure of 1917, which seems to me from the best information 1 can get, was due to the slide on trie Fraser
river, which prevented the run of salmon in 1917 from reach-
CM5**
ing the spawning grounds. " hat is the physical cause and one that seems to be an exceedingly effective and potent one. It would account, upon logical reasoning, for the
Q
doshortage of 1917. fhe eatch was about one-third in 1917,
1 think, on the Bound., probably the seme on the Fraser River, of what it bad been in 1915*
We all realise particularly those engaged in the salmon business on Puget Sounds that some steps, Mr.
Justice hasen* should be taken possibly of a radical ns ture9 yet at t fee same times^hilewe are looking to the continued perpetuation of the industry, it has seemed to sss that we ought to do two things, if possible. First, preserve the industry, rehabilitate find build it up, but build it up go-incidental with the cont inuat ion of the industry on=ia more limited scale. In other words, I do not feel that it is either to the interests of this nation, or to the British nation, or of Canada, or of anyone, to close down the industry absolutely for a period of four years, or eight years, or twelve years, to enable the Eraser liver to rehabilitate itself. If you attempt to do that you out out of business everybody that is engaged in it, you deprive the people of this o untry and of the foreign countries, ^ (you deprive)the armies that are fighting in France and Flanders, of *-Y e canned salmon as a food supply, end you
deprive the nation of ttet. a 4 .	-
/ / ' / - /
Ho?, you all 'have doubtless read the statement made
befoie a committee a short time ago by Dr. Gilbert# of
3tarford University, a most aistisguished scientist9 who ithoroughly familiar with she fishing businesst probably as familiar as any one in the United States# with the possible exception of the distinguished Chief of the Bureau of Fisheries. / Dr. Gilbert's idea is that the fishing industry on the Fraser River will be rehabilitate
JC,-
ed if fishing was closed down entirely for a period of
fV
four	belter jf&iXl eight ^s, «w»5 p sslbly
twelve years. That wipes out the .industry and wipes out the people that are engaged in it, it throws out of employment on Puget Sound probably 10,(00 to £0,000 people who work in that industry in various capacities; It forces people who ere dependent upon t ra. t industry to go out and seek' other avocations. low you may say, nBut if you are going to destroy the industry they will have to do that anyway,” and that is true. But let us, if Dr. Gilbert is correct in bis theory that the river would be rehabilitated if you closed it down entirely for a period of four, eight, or twelve years* as the case may be, lot all the fish go by to the spawning grounds and catch none of them, then it would seem that it would be the policy of reason to adopt a middle course; determine, if possible, whether 50 per cent
V,
of those fish can be assured of reaching the spasmInp grounds. If the entire run will be rehabilitated fn four years, or eight years, or twelve years, and then if you absolutely guaia ntee the arrival upon the spawning grounds of one-halfof that run it would build it up in less than twice the t ime, and at the same time the industry could run along in a certain way on a more limited scale, keep their organizations together, furnish employment for the men, and furnish a food supply for the present generation as well as for its posterity* That view would seens to be logical and seem to be the reasonable thing to So,
How, I want to state in this connection t teat some time in t ha month of December, when this High Commission was suggested* or about the time of its appointment t possibly shortly after its appointment, it was suggested by some one that such a Commission nai been appointed and would in time arrive on Puget Sound. The fisheries people, all the people engaged in the fisheries both in Ale ska and in seat tie, or on the Sound, happened to be attending a Conference or hearing of the Bureau of fisheries in this city on December 14th, when this matter .fas discussed* It was thought advisable by the people who were vitally interested in the perpetuation of the industry that some means should be taken by those industries themselves, some investigation should be made, some effort should be made in co-operation with he people engaged in the same industry on the eraser River r; nd see if some plan could not be suggested thereby the industry would be perpetuated and at the same time mightbe contented to run on a small scale. With that in view the Washington fisheries Assooiation appointed a committee of five or six members, and that Committee communicated with the eannerymen particularly engaged in the fishing industry on the Freser Biver, and a similar commit tee was appointed. These two committees met as a joint committee in t he city of Vancouver some sis or eight weeks ago, and oub-coma, it tees were appointed to make an invest ig: t ion of the conditions affecting the inter-sts of the fishing business both in Canada ©nd on the eraser Biver and in this country, Hearings were had by the American sub-committee ana testimony taken, and evidence was offered by every# body who was engaged in the fishing business and wanted to appear before that Commit tee*A teeord of its proceedings was taken, and I understand that a similar sub-committee appointed by the Canadian Committee also made investigations. And we held two more meetings of the joint committee, trying to do just what your aistanguished body is trying to do today, to arrive at som* basis of adjustment which would bring about the desired result of re-building this great industry, if it is in fact destroyed. At the last meeting, which lasted two days* in Vancouver, British Columbia, the matter was discussed by the cannerymen themselves who were members of that committee on both sides of the line, and it seemed to be the universal impression of everybody and wasstated at the Conferences, that it was a fact —~nwhet her it is or not 1 have not yet had verified by the figures. --- but it seemed to be taken for granted that about one-half of all of the salmon, eockeye salmon, that reached Fraser Elver passed up to the spawning grounds, passed through these waters am! through the Fraser Rivert prior to the first of AugustB and passed through the waters of Puget Sound prior to the first of August. If that is true, that one-half the salmon do pass through and into the fraser Kiver prior to the first day of August of each year on an average* then would it not be well --- and we discussed it end thought it would be
advisable,if possible ------- to prohibit the fishing for sock-
eye salmon in the waters of Puget Sound prior to the first day of August, or from July 00th to the first day of August* so that at least one-half of the fish would be permitted, unhampered, to go through the waters of puget sound and get into the Fraser Eiver ana then proceed on to their spawning grounds.
SBG..ERAHY £KBFlEIa):	Will you state- me those Hates again?
LB. McOO.J):	From	July	201h to August 1st.
SRCIRalABY EKDKEX.P:	Well, you would have to not only
prohibit the catch in Puget Sound, but also the catch in Fraser Eiver, I presume?
US. cOORD:	I	was	just coming to that in one momentaSSCK&fABY REBFIELD:	Yes.	1	beg	your	pardon.
KB. KcOOBB:	8® far as the oat oh in Puget sound was
concerned, we thought the great hulk of all the salmon that passed through the waters and to the spawning grounds, through the waters of Puget Bound, passed prior to the first of August. Eost of them passed between the Both of July End first of August. We thought that It was better, advisable, to take July EOth, closing down absolutely until the first day of August, to let the young run, let the strong run, that is, the run of fresh and vigorous fish pass through first, Then it occurred to this Committee, that is, to the American Committee, that if the American fishermen were prohibited from fishing up until midnight of the first of Augustt from July ZQth to midnight of August 1st, then the fish that would arrive at the international boundary line at that close season should have some opportunity to pass on up the Fraser Elver, through the Hew I eatminster bridge and on to their spawning grounds unmolested. in other words, it was tt'dugtt earnestly by the American Committee, and ell of its members, that there ought to be an interval between the close seasons; in other words, that the Fraser River people should not begin fishing for five days after, or some days, it makes no .difference what, but for a sufficient interval of time to allow the fish that accumulated
A Aon the borders of Canada during our close season to get through the Fraser giver and not be gathered together in a body at the inierna11ona1 boundary line ana then we o&ught by the Fraser River fisheries on the way up. And it seemed, from the best; information obtainable on the American side, that the fish play around a day or two at the mouth of the river before they start .up, and we think there ought to bo some few days after oar close season ends before the British Columbia fisherman should begin to fish,
And It was suggested that the British Columbia close season should begin on July 85 th and then on to August Sth, and the Americans begin on July Both and end on August 1st, so you would have a graduated scale.	And no one question-
ed on either committee, so far as I heard, as to the efficiency of that plan. They thought It would bring about, in e measure, the results we were hoping to accomplish. T be British Columbia Commitfee, however, sa id that they could not see their way clear to concede the additional five days. They tnought that it would be fair to have some close season both on the ;j ound and on t he Fraser!, iver. fhey wero willing to abide by that suggestion and that plan.
-hey were willing to adopt the plan of closing down matII the first, of August, provided the close season was the same in heAmerican waters p. s it was in their waters and theirs the same as ours. However, you must know that fish comingfrom the Straits of 3sn Juan de :?uaa and on up around ttrough the Gulf of Georgia and rea hing the Fraser Fiver would take some days to make the passage as they do.
CHIB? JUSTICE HA2EU:	How	far is :t from the
internalional boundary to the mouth of the Fraser?
LK. McGOBD:	It is s veogr short distance there —- point
Hoberts. It is about a hundred miles9 1 should think, from the entrance of the fish into the Jtraifes of San Juan de Fuea. So that there was the point upon which we failed to agree. It was as to when the close season should be upon the Fraser Biver and when it should be had upon the Sound. If that had been out of it I think there would have been a unanimous recom^endai ion of % hat committee to this Commission, and we fa*:led to do bo because of that inability to agree as to the close season.
Mow, gentlemen, it must-be manifest tha; if we start out with the theory of letting 50 per cent of the salmon pass through and reach their spawning grounds we ought to do it, we ought to insure their arrival at the fishing grounds; and if the American fishermen and the American people are willing to have a ten day close season, or stop fIshing untiI the firet of Augus19 we think that the British Columbia people should not have, in fairness to the industry, any greater close season, but it oughtto he in a graduated form anfl snould commence there five days later and end five days later than ours. That was trie result that we accomplished hy these hearings and hy these committees.
How, something will have to he done for the preservation of the industry. Anybody can tell that there is a disease here, that there is a trouble he?", but what is the remedy? That is the thing that 1 apprehend that this Committee is more desirous of determining than anything else.
For many years, gentlemen, we 1* thought in this country, the United States and in Canada, that the hatcheries were the salvat ion of the industry. We thought tha t fcy tfa* artificial hatching of salmon millions, and untold millions, of fish could be hatched and put out and we could undoubtedly rehabilitate the rhers, the fraser River, in that way, and would perpetuate it forever. The Columbia Elver, if you will remember, several years ago it was almost in 8 depleted condition. By the activity and efficiency of the hatcheries of Washington and of Oregon and the other hatcheries it has beer; practically rebuilt and they are: catching as many fish now as they evor did pretty near in the Columbia Biver. This is a little different variety of fish, but it seems that some method will have to be devised in the nature of making the hatcheries of the Fraser liiver acre efficient to finally
4: irehabilitate this river. If that in not true, gentlemen, why is it that as far back as the recorded history of she Fraser Liver,goes wo find that there have been three lean years and one big year*? thy is ifc that if you let all of the fish go up, as suggested by my d1stinguished friend pr. gilbert, why is it that prior to commercial fishing upon the Fraser liver, and for forty or fifty years, where we have the records of it ------- not so accurate, possibly as tLey should be------------------why bav© cot the lean years
rehabilitated themselves and rebuilt the river? possibly they may say that there fish do not go far enough up the river and do not reach all of 4 he spawning grounds in those three years. I don't know whether that is true or not, but it seems a marvelously strange thing that the three lean years never did increase or get very much larger, according to the best information that I have ever been able to gat*
Now then, if you let- the fish, during the neat four years, or eipRt years, go up, have we any * aura nee that the number 01 fish in t he a waters will increase during that period of sime, if, as 1 have been informed, for forty or fifty 2ears prior to eonusercial RaaMng we at ill had the lean years ana ih> big years just as we do now? There is a physic-' 1 reason for the diminution of fish in 1^17, namely, the slide on t fee Eraser Elver. It would seem that something must be the Batter with the knowledge that the detent 1stshave of the hatcheries. There o Ug h t to be some way, must be some way, of restoring the ran of salmon by the use of ihe bciefeeries on i os 'Fraser liver.
Bow, it was suggested at the me st iag in Vancouver, 1 think Dr.Smith asked me the question, how are you going to test the efficiency of your hatcheries on the fraser itiver if the fish never get there?	I-hat is true, some of them
must pet there. You must have the fish or you must; take the epgs there from some olher source. I d© not know what the people who really know the history of -• tie business and are familiar with toe scientific features of it think of it, but it has occurred to	me that	the	experiments that
have teen made in the last	year or	two	by the ^ish Commission of the State of ’.Yashin j' on	are	worthy of your deepest cons iderat ion. A few	years ago, almost in the face	of
ridicule, he began to take salmon, the sockeye salmon, out of the traps on Pugefc sound, taking them alive through orates dragged in the water and planting them with a rack below and a rack above and waiting till they got ready for spawning, and I underatand they furnished some 10,000,000 to your hatchery on the fraser Biverfnlm 1 not right that tr e y hatched out properly a nd sati sfactarily?
PE. SMITH:	Yes.
EH. MoCOED:	Mow, if that is true, gentlemen, there is
an experiment based upon something. 1 mean by that, that he
A Ghas done something, shown something by that experiment that may point a way during the lean years to take the eggs of the sockeye Salmon farther up on the Eraser River to the spawning grounds, wher it las been suggested that they do not go in the lean years. It may be a difficult thing to do, but it is something based upon facts and figures, because we know that we can sent these eggs from one place to another and plant them, and if there is a shortage of salmon upon the spawning grounds why is it not possible# through such experiments on a larger scale as those that have been performed by Mr, Darwin in the	hatchery* why
cannot that be done and the eggs taken up there and help rehabilitate this industry through the hatcheries if it is due to a shortage of fish? It say be, and I have understood a great many of the people who have been upon these
grounds, the fishing grounds in Alaska ------- I mean on the
Eraser and elsewhere -— say that you can have too many fish reaching the spawning ground. A number of men in whom T have the very highest confidence, who have visited these spawning grounds, find that tha fish and the eggs can be gathered in such large quantities that they soother each other and the waves and everything just beat them to death, say that it is a fajfc on the Columbia Biver and on the Fraso Biver that you can heve too many fish reaching the spawning grounds. You can heve too few. There should be an idealpoint between lie two, which would he to have just enough there if you are obliged to rely upon she natural spawning grounds.
Inhere has been suggested wit bin the l^.st few months some quest ion as to I ho efficiency of the hatcheries. 1 hope that is a mistaken fear? Dr, Gilbert suggests we put our faith in hatcheries. Dr. Smith I was glad to hear say
*
the other day. fc hat so far as the Fraser was concerned, that he thought it could he built up possibly by the newer methods of hatcheries in the same way a different variety of fish had been built up on the Columbia Elver, although Dr. Smith said that there was a difference in the salmon of the Columbia Elver and the salmon of the Fraser. But he suggested the fingerling process, keeping them impounded untal they were large enough to take c -re of t he ms elves, or at least \m. ve i belter op port uni ty of t aking os re of t hem-selves, Vvhen they left their waters, when t aey were turned out.
How, we all enow the trouble, tut we don't know now to remedy is. I on* t taom what t he plan of this 0ommission may be, b it it would seem that it is the ides 9 according to the Secretary, to have a treaty madia to embody the findings and reoommendations of this Joint Commission in a treaty between G&mada a ad the United States. If that is to be done without infringing upon the rights of the state to control its fisheries, then it would seem that it would be desirable at least to have this treaty that was made, or whatever eon-tr* ct was made as to the handling of this question, approved by the State of Washington at its nest Legislature so that there could be no question raised as to the legality of any treaty that might be adopted as effecting tee fishing rights. I have no doubt that the Legislature of Washington would be willing to pass and adopt a contract or treaty or agreement in regard to these fisheries that would be satisfactory to this Commission* whatever this Commission recommends I think it would be possible to get the Legislature to adopt, so long vs the Legislature felt that it was in the interests of the fi-.hing industry itself,
Ce will have Some legal questions to raise should, it ever reach the point where a treaty was negotiated by the Executive Department and it was attempted to pass it in the jenate if it deprived the jtate of mshingt on of its exclusive right to control its own fisheries without any interference on the rt of Congress* In other words,the question will undoubtedly be raised, unless the Legislature of Washington is willing to endorse the act of this Commission, that Congress, or the nation, or through the treaty making po\?er, shall not exercise the right to control fisheries absolutely. But 1 hope that question will never be raised. we have a very striking •sample of it already in this state. Oregon passed one set of laws, Washingtonpassed the same law, regulating the fishingupon the Columbia liiver, providing the appliances, providing the close seasons and everything connected with he management of t be industry, and Congress passed an Act ratifying end approving that compact made between the two states. &nd j hope tbat this plan, so far as the fisheries in the state of Washington is concerned, will be of such a character that it will be possible to have the action of the British Columbia people, or Canadian Government and the United States and the State of Washington, join in the making of it so thers can never be any question raised about it.
It would also seen;, gentlemen, that there should be some further restrict ion placed upon both trap fishing and purse seine fishing, gill netting and everything else, ae have under our system in this State of Washington, under our fishing laws, any man can take out a purse seine license who will pay fifty dollars for it, I think it la; anybody can take out a trap license and locate it anywhere in the 3tsp e of w&SLington by paying the fifty dollar license.
There should undoubtedly be a provision in this arrangement t hat no grerter number of traps, t hat no adc11 ional trsps should be constructed and that no additional purs© seines
other than those that are no?; in existence should he granted. There should be some sort of a limitation. Take it as it is
in 1918, there will be at least a fi. ty per cent reduction inthe number of purse seines used in the fishing. If some sort of plan ----
BE. SMITH:	Please	advise	us,	Mr. McGOrd, why that
re duotion will probably come about?
ME. McOOEB:	I	t! ink the reduction will come about
principally for the reason that this year is a small year and they know that they can1fc make money, and % bey oan make more money in some other line of employment. That is one thing. Another is due to the Ausirisns who have been engaged in the purse seine business, some 16Q0 of them, I understand. And up to the present time I think they are prohibited from fishing in the waters of the State of Vi ashing ton by an opinion of the Attorney General of the state, who nolds that these alien enemies, or Austrians, have no right to a fishing license. ihe fishing code of the state provides that anybody who is a citisen, or who has declared his intention to become a citizen, may have a license to fish, '?he Attorney General of this state has ruled that inasmuch as the declaration of war between Austria and the United states created the Austrians alien enemiea¥ that it has the effect of suspending the intention to become a citizen, and that the Austrian is, to all intents and purposes, as though he had never declared his intention to become a citizen, and not entitled to fish. R'hat is the position that the AttorneyGeneral of this state taxes, whether be will adhere to it or not 1 don't know. I understand a very strong effort is being isade to cause a change in that.
DR. dMIfB;	In what respect, Hr. iicOord?
MB- IcOOILD:	If	you will recall, on December 15th,
1 think it was, the president issued his proclamation, after the ieolsrat ion of war, in which he recommended or stated that the Austrians were different from the Germans, to be regarded as different, and that they should be permitted to perform and carry on their usuaj. avocation so long
a
as they did it as law abiding persons, and they would not be molested, and he admonished the people of t he united States to aid them in*pursuing their lawful occupations.
SECRETAKY BJSDFI1IJ3:	Kay	I just say a word there?
IR R. II o 0 OH D:	Yes,	cert a inly.
3&CEETAET SEDFIELD:	for	the sake of clearing that
matter up ----- it is not largely within the function of
this Conference to discuss matters of thv-t character, and yet it may be easy to clarify that a little. The Austria* i ungarian government or country is, as you ;?r;ow, of a very complex character. They are a number of distinct races, languages, comprehended too generally and vaguely under the one word wAustrian”, merely because they happen to be, 1st us ope temporarily9 under the dominion of the AustrianEmpire and Hungarian king. Many of those peoples have their own national history, condition language and literature, quite independent of and distinct' from the Aagtrla-huagarian Empire itself. A number of them are known to have distinct national and racial aspirations which are not always consistent with the cont inuat ion of the domination over them of the Austria-riunsarian power* It would not be correct, as a matter of fact, to speak of people of Bohemia, for example, as in t he seme political basis fit-1 the Germans of Austria proper* or to consider a Emgo-3lav# or an Italian living in Trieste, or its locality, in the seme category as a Magyar of Budapest. I here are broad distinctions to be made. if the opinion of your Attorney General is as broad as It would seem to be 1 would suggest that there were ground there for readjustment which would be at once fair and desirable.
MB. LgOOrjv:	pardon	me	for	this	diversion, but pr.
Smith's question suggest 3d it, hr. Secretaryf that is bow I happened to mention it.
31.0.CRTASY EBDHflD:	I	am	very	glad : ou did menfci on it.
ME* McGOKD:	And I will say that 1 have been informed
that the matter has been since taken up with the Attorney }ener 1 oi ;,be United States and the .Department of justice* tind these alien Austrian® belonging to the Eugo-Slav classabout which you speak, and 1 have also been informed that tbe Attorney General of the United 3tat@s has indicated that he thought they ought to be ent it lea to their license, or something to that effect* 2 haven't men the letters. But that is a matter up to the present time, unless it is changed, that will operate to reduce the number of fish caught., but there will be- a very large reduction, at least 50 per cent less than last year, for commercial reasons.
How, there is just a matter that	1	can't touch	on
urtil we get figures at 8;00 o'clock*	which	we hope	to
have calculatedf but before that 1 would 1'k# to be permitted to make a further discussion of those figures at the t ime we meet again.
3 ,0 MAM	ELD:	Certainly.
UK* MoOQPJP; 1 don't want to be areoltided from any par 15c ula r he aring s.
SEOSXTAEX BKBFIELB:	Wot	at all, sir.
ICE. R.'cOOHD:	But	there	is	one other feature at this
time that occurs to me that is probably in the minds of . ome of you gentlemen, fnd is a very important one, one that 5s not free from difficulty in deciding in fairness. There are two sides to it. And that is the question of the weekly close season. Under the laws of the state of Washington we have a weekly close season of thirty-sis hoursunder the British Columbia I understand that they have a weekly close season of thirty^six hours.
ME. FOUHD:	Forty-two and forty-eight.
Ob la JUSTICE HASIuIf:	On	the United states Bide it
is tbirty-8ix hours?
ME. McCOEj):	Yes.
CEIIR? JUST IGE HAIL a:	On the Canadian side forty-two
and forty-eight?
M3. HoCORD:	Yes.
3K.	SMITH:	Please let us know the	period got©red by
t he closed time on t he American side?
IRK.	koCOHD:	It is thirty-six hours	a week.
BB-	SlilTE:	Do you remember when it	begins?
ICE- R’cOOEL:	Friday	afternoon	at	4;0 3 p. m.
OEJll’ J CJSr' I OK kxAZ.^t Friday at 4; 00 p. m. u til Sunday at 4:00 a. m. ?
El* MoGOHP:	Yes.
3330RETAHJ HEDP13L? :	Let	me	ask	right	there# is that
praot ioalRy in foroe?
MB. LIoCQRD; lr. Darwin. t he Fish Commissi oner, can answer it. 1 think it is.
IvIK. EAK.VIN:	Absolutely. There may be some viola-
tions of it.
SEOFRCAbY ESDFLELJ:	1	don’t	wish	you	to	misunderstand
58my question. I assume it is not by a great deal, unfortunately, in districts not remote free Washihgtoas we have found occasion that there was a forgetfulness in those matters.
a£. kcCOKD:	Bo	far	as the fishing industries are
concerned, trap fishing, the elose season for trap fisting on Puget Sound, you may hear rumors that they are not closed during the close season, but 1 don’t tfaink it is true. The Fish Commissi oner has his fish inspectors &rJ1 fish wardens, an3 they have prosecuted in a number of instances and have procured t conviction in almost ev-ary instance where the Commissioner has brought it to court ;
hut 1 don't think it is right, I don't think It is----------
possibly it Is right to ask the question, but I don?t believe there should be any presumption that; the laws of the State of Washington are not enforced by the officers of that state.
Si.O- ,R kBY EEBF1I1D:	Ob, certainly not.
HH. : :cCO R.:i):	When	men make suggestions that there
is a violation of law it seems to me that these idle rumors should be backed up by facts.
8EOaETABY BaBFlBLD:	Surely.
I.E. , cCOED:	And	I	challenge the statement of anybody
that there has been any continuous oper violation of that 1aw in the State of Wash ington.8KCRS2JABT HHDFIhLD; js it your experience, Mr, accord, is it public opinion among the fishermen to support the law?
Liu McOOBP:	Absolutely they sup; ort the law. Why?
5* hat people who are engaged in the fisfa business, and t he fishermen themselves, are more deeply and .wore peculiarly interested in she preservation of that fish as a food supply than any other men in the United States. fe are all interested in it, but this man's livelihood depends ipon it, und be is going to see it enforce3. Arid 1 bad occasion to defend one or two instances of men who had been charged with violating the fishing law, and you would be astonished at the vast corps of witnesses who came forward - ad testified against tfee man who was violating the law.
Vte had scores and scores of them until the court wouldn't bear them.
GELlfcf JhSTXCK HA3EI:	Shat you say is absolutely
correct in theory, but my experience has been, dealing with
fishermen-----I ato not speaking of the Pacific Coast,— they
will not observe \he laws unless they are compelled to do ao, end their motto is to crowd time, trust; as little as possible to the future and get all you can today. And you are not ^eing to get your laws enforced if you are going to depend upon public opinion of ho fishermen. You have got to enforce them tirough aen who are paid for that or they will not be enforced.
C
ouI;R. McGOHD:	In every county there is e warden
ar-po inted.
CHIEF JUSTICE EA2iiWt	It is the same through all
the country.
[„K« I-lcaOKD; And it is the duty of those men to enforce the law. Ee oan make inspections and investigations. And I think it is a reflect ion upon the State of Washington and upon t fee laws of the at ate of Washington if charges are .sade that they vielatethe law • simply upon rumor.
OBIKF JUtfllCtt BASKf:	That is true.
MS. LcCOaD:	And	1 tell you, if there is any violation
of law hy any of these fishermen, or anybody knows t hat the law is being violated, why isn't it his duty to go to the Prosecuting Attorney of the county in which the offense occurs and report it?
ChiXiSF J!.187 1 OB n£:i:	Mr. Ueyord , 1 f $ ou permit me,
I don't want to say anything that is any way offensive,
1 an. making no re ft-re nee to wha; occurs on the pacific Coast,
but x simply say, from my 92perieB.ee, the fact that there
are laws and the f; ct there arc iaon a? id to enforce ' hem-----------
I am referring to fishery laws --------- in my opinion it is not
prima facie evidence of the fact they are enferjed, because
1 don't triinfc the fishermen, as a rule,----------there may he an
exception on toe Pacific; I confine my remarks to the
61Atlantis ---- as a rule the fisherman will catch all the
flab he can unless he is prevented from doing so by the officers of the law*
IRK. McOOED:	There	may	be	soma fishermen that will
do that, but iwant to call your attention to the fact that the peoaie who are engaged in the fishing business in 1 be State of Washington with their traps are some of the most respected men in this or any other community, ere just as law-abiding as the citizens of any nation, sad you must not say those men, simply because they are engaged in she fishing business, become law-breakers. 1 understand you don11 mean any offense* but 1 simply make the statement 1 don't think it is fair to have a general rumor cast around through Canada and this country that the laws of the state of pastington are violated, and violated openly.
3ECE&TAm BEJHiMl:	Hr.KcQort,	1	beg	you net to
unde ro r,and on t he part of the Commi ss 1 ois an ins inuat ion was made. What you say is a great source of comfort to me. I know very well personally the s' of; ive efficiency of your state government in respect to the fisheries, but J asked the question th* t I did for a special aurpose, namely, the quest ion as t o whether public opinion among the fisher-ten su .oited the law, because it ;s my experience, of which I am going to give you an ex staple in a moment # that unlessthe fishermen are as enlightened as you are yourself in the very wise and thoughtful statement ^ou made a few minutes ago, X say, unless they are as thoughtful and wise they themselves see nothing at hand for the hour but the getting of their daily bread for themselves and their families. low let me give you an example. fifehin a thousand miles of tbs City of Washington is a great fishery
which has been almost destroyed ------- almost destroyed ----- by
the very condition of which X speak, and to this day, despite laws, despite the immediate presence of the Federal Government and the active operation of the state Government, the opinion amongthe fishermen is such thas they will catch where they choose. ’shen t hey choose, the amount they choose, and their whole doctrine is 'Si© will fish when we please and nobody shall say us nay.” Bow, I pres ime you don't realize the extent to which that is true, and yet let me tell you we have s law from congress which prohibits our spending any federal money where the si,a' e does r.ofc enforce the laws, among other things, for tae protection of the fisheries, and we have been obliged recently to close a fish hatchery an6 dismantle it and take it aw y because, despite a sound body of the law, the state did not enforce, and could not enforce, I think, without more power ofae.n i :• saw fit to use against the opinion of the fishermen themselves.
6
<r%
)*3Am 1 telling the truth. Dr. Smith?
DE. SHIM:	Absolutely.
SECBisTABI BEBF1SLD:	Every	word	you	sa$d	you	have
said with honor and truth as regards that part icular state , rn he fishing authorities of that state are sincere and honest men, yet these facta exist and the hatchery which ought to be dealing with scores of millions of eggs asyear
dealt with two or three millions, and we closed it up.
MK. L;aCO-vD:	That bears upon the public opinion on
which the laws of this state are supported, and 1 think is reflected in the laws of the state. "here is no community in the stale of Oregon that has as efficient fishing laws as ih the state of Washington, so far as the rote o t 1 or. , or attempted protection of the fish is concerned.
1.e Rave a set of laws providing for the close season and every protection for the enforcement of the close season; wc have money appointed for "feat; we have a fish Commissioner authorized to spend that money and to make the arrests, and all of those laws have been upon the statute books since 1895, and have been constantly and constantly strengthened a3 legislature after legislature passed by to enforce, the law. Rossibly there may be something so far as the fishing is concerned, there may be violations, and doubtless there are. All men are not honest, all men don't want to ob^p the
64law, but I don't believe that any great class of men, certs inly so far as the people engaged in fishing with purse seines to a very large extent end by the trapmen, almost universally, without a single exoat ion, you will find just as big it-class men there, and just as law-abiding men as you will find in any department of this country, in any line of work, or any occupation or profession, and we are not law breakers. we at.empt to enforce the laws, and 1 think they are enforced,and 1 have near4 these rumors and that is probably why I responded to It so emphatically, that there have been violations of the lav*. But, where? if anybody knows of the violation of this la?; all be has to do is go to Fish Commission, and if the Fish Commissioner does not want to do it he can go to the prosecuting Attorney of the county.
SKGIMRv.HI HSDfIBLD:	I must say, Kr. McCord, I have
nev r heard of the rumors. 1 spoke of some of our unfortunate experiences on the Atlantic Coast.
ME- McOGBD:	So	far	as	experience	in Washington is
concerned, almost under the shadows of Washington's Monument you had a great fish industry, the shad fishery. Congress has sat there. Whether they have any pover or nott they have actually, and I 6aw it myself, a barrier clear across the ©outh of the Rappahannock Biver so the fish couldn't get up to save its life. Isn't that correct, Kr. Smith?
DK. di.XTE:	Absolutely correct*
65MB. MoCGBD:	It would take a fish with a college
education to get up the Rappahannock Elver two years ago.
3f.CRa,TARY REDFlBLi):	You	want to know what happened
to them?
MB. Me CO: .D:	1 think you sent an engineer out there
and cut a way through.
BiRCfaTABY mwmw:	we	did. It might be interesting
to you gentlemen to know	what the result was?
RJEu KoCGBB:	Well,	I would like to hear	it.
SECRETARY BEDFIELD:	2hat in a single year after cut-
ting channels through those nets, on the ground that they were obstructions to navigation, the work of the Bryant9s Point fish hatchery grew from BO,000,000 eggs to 86,000,000 eggs in one year.
HR. MoOOED:	OXad	to hear that. How, there is just
one thing I started to say, and that is9 on this weekly close season. 1 think that probably allagree that it would not be vise to wipe out the industry for experimental purposes and not have any fishing for the next four? eight or twelve years, 1 believe this Commission would agree on that without any hesitancy, that that wouldn't; be the wise tfcinp to do. Kov then, where would be the point at which you would draw the line as to the quantity of	fish that
should go up the riverto	the spawning grounds	and what shouldbe caught? That must be viewed from a practical purpose as well as from a scientific purpose. If the line is too small and you oan11 draw it in the middleman have to put in your traps and have to operate your canneries, it cannot be done as a practical proposition. Then you might just as well close when you reach that point# wipe it out now instead of being dead and buried as it is. But I don’t think that time has ever arrived.
How then, it being advisable unquestionably to alio?# the industry to cont inue as a practical Industry and at the same time attempt to build it up --- if you out it off too short you can't run —- you must let 50 per cent, it seems to me, or api..rox iaately 50 per cent reach their spawning grounds. That ought to be done, I think every fisherman on both sides of the line is in favor of that 9 that is, every man engaged in the fishing business on any scale I know is. I think the purse seiners and the gill netters would acquiesce in that, on both sides, that you, say, let 50 per cent, or as nearly 50 per cent go by as can be arranged, with the practical perpetuation of the industry in t he canning business.
How, gentlemen, if the figures will bear me out, that prior to the first of August approxiaately 50 per cent of the fish go by, ought that not to be sufficient? In other words, if we feel that the 50 per cent is sufficient to atleast try out the experiment of rebuilding the industry in that way and rehabilitating Jt, then when you have provided and have assured the arrival of 50 per cent of the fish upon the spawning grounds, then is there any necessity for the weekly close season?	Let; one-half go by, then let the
people engaged in the busineso do what they'oan as f {^remaining half. But if 50 per cent has already teen provided for you know that of the remaining half, where they would be permitted to fish there would be a considerable quantity that get by in any event.
CHIEF JJ3r:iCE RAZm:	It	is	your proposal no fish
shall be caught before th* first of Augustf
MB.IIoCOltD:	2he report of the Qommittee was that
there should be a close season from the Both day of July until the first of August.
CKR&F JUSTICE EASES:	2hat is, they be avowed to
fish up to the 20 th of August?
LR. McCOKl:	Well, there are a greatnaany other fish
runn5 ng in t he wa ters of puset 8ound, and other variet ies of salmon that are caught to some extent, }:rior to the Eoth of July9 ooaime&olng about the first of June.
CHIEF JUSTICE £131.1!:	When	do	the sookeyes oommence
t o run?
MB. IJcCOiD:	Tr.ey commence bo run about the SQth
of July.CHIEF JUSTICE BAZkS:	Thar© is not much run of sockeye
before the £Qth of July?
a great deal. They some in scattering quantities, but they are not considered from a sfcmmercial standpoint very much. Of course, the traps are put in a little earlier by reason of that fact, but nobody would put in a trap or attempt to fish for that part ox the season only, and the first real substantial run of sook&ye sal-$on begins somewhere between the 34th, 25bh of July* and that Is tne earliest and the heaviest run.
OH IK!* JUST I OS EAZ81:	Do they vary a little, 1 suppose,
one year with the other?
IR£. mOQYD:	Oh yes.
GilII? JU8aIOB HASKF:	Do t bey vary more than a few
days?
131 * KcCOEB:	yes.	You can't tell very much about
ttiat, but there is always a good, big, healthy run before i-tie first of August, and there is some after. I bsj always,
Thet is not uorreut.
CHIEF JUSTICE HA2KK:	Exouse me. You spoke# Mr.
LcCord, of the fish playing around, was your expression?
MK. Me00HD:	Yes.
CHIKF JUbl'I On liAlauH :	Be fore they actually entered
the Fraser Hiver. la that a matter va.ica, to your knowledge, is affected by the temperature of the water,therefore by the weather?
wp. MoGOKD:	1 never beard that. My understand ing of
tte matter is that where the fish reach the fresh water that they hesitate before leaving the salt water and going into thd fresh water some time.	Leaving	the salt water
and going into the Fraser or fresh water they will play around or wait awhile, I don’t know whether that is true or not.
MB.	FOUKD:	It has been a fact of	the fish moving
up	the Eraser liver, but no one	car tell anything about it.
ME* MeCOED:	Ho	one oan tell anything about it, but
it is naturally supposed that the fish try to adapt them-se 1vos to the fresh water*
SaGBhlAKI BEBFIKLB:	May	I	ask, is Mr. Baboook here?
MB. BABCOCX;	Yes sir.
mmwmt by i. p. MBooaic, m&m wim s : 3 itgnu
YICTOBIA, £. C.
S£CILIARY lUwjfllLj:	1	would like to ask him just a
question, Ir. McCord. Lr. pabkock, \*hat knowledge have you of this particular phase of the suc^eot thai; has oome up about the history of the fish?
R1H.	BABCOCK:	I have been	unable	to determine, though
I began	the study of conditions	on the	Fraser in 19029 Ihave never been able to make up my mind with aow much directness or tow much time any particular run has taken. Rhero have been times when we thought we could reach a oonolu-sion from catches made in the straits and catches mad© at salmon banks and catehas mafle in tbe gulf, and there have bean seasons in which we can show a §m days after catches in the straits they have made catches at Point Roberts.
'cere have teen other days when the relay seemed longer.
The impression seemed, when I first came in to study the case, % rat it took two weeks. I don't thi nk i t takes anything like that time, but w© have been unable to collect any information on which we can definitely state tow long it takes. fe can show you most remarkably that the fish, the sockeye, the bulk of the sockeye have struck the traps in the straite of Juan de Fuga, the southern shore of Vancouver Island.on corresponding days, running from the Elst to the 26th, with one very notable exception, that the greet run of 1905 they didn't strike in there until some time in August, the great bulk of them.
3EC.-E? AKT 'LY.JfFJIJ.~y:	Are you able to say to us, ;:r.
Babcock, referr5m to fcae sug£estion by |r. re0ord t hat
1??
t here is a definite interval of some days perhaps between the fish striking Into Juan de Fuca and their entrance into the Eraser Biver?
TiH. I-ABS0C3T:	Absolutely,	yes,	there	is	a	difference.
71It docs take considerable time, sometimes considerably longer in one season than in another.
SiSGKM: BY BaPFIELD:	Car, you state the minimum,
Mr. labcock?
MU. BABCOCx :	1	couldn't,	no.	I	think	it can be
shown, however, from the catches made in the straits and the catches made by Alaska packers, or for P. A. ?. traps at Bellingham, you could show corresponding dates between the real catches made in the Juan de Fuea traps and the traps made afe that time. But I have never been able t-o work out 8 schedule on there.
SEOR. R BY ERJJ’IhLi):	I he point that 1 have in Lind,
Mr. Babcock, is, again referring to what Mr. KcQord has just said, whether a close season such as ha has suggested, if coincident exactly as to date both In the river it pelf and in the straits themselves, would be in fact the same in practice,in result? I take it from what Hr. McCord suggested that hi© point of view was, or the point cf vie* of the parties he represents, that the alose season should not be precisely coincident as to time, but should he coincident as to tr, ct, and I am inferring, perhaps misue k:enly, that is why I w 1 sh you to enlighten me, that is all.
CE1EP JU-7IGK HACUf:	What Mr. acOord said, the
close season should be from the 20th of July to the first of August and on the river from the 35th of Jul$ to the5th of August # there should be a difference of five days?
HE. MoCOHD:	Yes.
SECRETABY HR, DPI El 33:	How, what Mr. Babcock says
would seem to verify what ilr.KoOord already has said.
CEIKF JUSTICE EA2KH:	I	would	like to ask*Mr,
Babcock, it was suggested there Tas a closed season on the straits from the 201h of July to the first of August, that the close season on the river shouljj be from the 25th of July to the 5th of August, because there would be an interval of five ays fc he re in vhich those fish would be getting up from the internet ional boundary to the Fraser river, or from the straits to the Fraser Hiver, to the Hew Westminster bridge. Bow, what do you say to that, iRr. Babcock? should you have a difference of five days?
ME- BABCOCK:	I	am	not	prepared to answer that.
ChIK? JUUI10E EA5EH:	Should there be n difference
in the straits?
HE. .BA3C0G;:	H	am	not	prepared to answer that ques-
tion. There is r> difference of opinion between men who have devoted a good dealof time to the study of conditions as to whether you should have a continuous olo ;e season from Jue n de ii’uca straits to the international boundary line, or to the Mission bridge. At different time we have held different opinions. In one of my early reports I favored a zone. In later reports 1 favored a continuousclose season. If it was left to me for the moment to speak , end 1 hope later on in Vancouver, when tbe case comes up in its entirety and we have the figures which Mr. McCord promised fox the American side, and which 1 understand Mr. Found has arranged for on t he Gan dian side, that it will be possible for us to get a little further information from the statements by the Alaska packers and the ?acifio~American Fisheries, and the atrait traps, and eome one of our recognised canners on the Fraser, so that yon idsy determine accurately from figures for a period of years a.' to the time the oatche * were made in both y.aters.
MB- T.OWMAFi Mr. ItcGord, I would like to make it clear. The propc-'ltion mas that the close season should commence at the Strait, running thence to the boundary line on the Salmon banks, commencing mith the loth of July and ending on the 25th of July where the fish struck the American fisheries, and through the American fisheries from the 20th of July till midnight preceding the first day of Augu t# or eleven days; thence from the boundary line to and including 11 of the British Columbia and Eraser Biver fisheries from the 25fch day of July until the 5th day of August, .uaking eleven days. That is ten closed days in the 'tr?. ts. Between straits of Victoria and the bou dary line, eleven closed days; between the boundary line, and including all of the Fraser Mver fisheries, eleven full days*phere isere three steps. We are not scientists, *e cannot make a scientific study, hut we have caught the fish for years, we knew where to go and find them.
HR. BABCOCK:	I	think one thing occurs to me, that the
distance from Juan de Fuca Straits to point Boberts is very much greater than the distance between the boundary line to Mission bridge, a great many miles difference. The fish, if they hesitate other then from a tide, apparently hesitate v^hen they come from the salty waters to the fresh waters of the Fraser. 1 think it must have been demonstrated that the fresh water of iha Fraser rests as a mantle over the salt waters of the Gulf at certain phases of the t ide# and that the fish hesitate to pass from the salty waters of Kosario straits and the waters immediately to the south of Poijjt Roberts, hesitate in entering the brackish waters, and their hesitancy is longer at the boundary probably than it is at any other point up to the point when they reach that wa ter.
3-	BY	KT . r. 3. McCOBD C OFT I HUE
MB. McOOTD:	I think it is a fact, the experience of
all f the fishermen and !Rr. Tab cock as well, that there is a new internaiional boundary line, a hesitancy or stoppage of these fish. The purpose that the American fisherman havespawning grounds, be are willing to forego the right to oat oh them, but wa want the British Columbia people to also forego their r pht to catch them until, say, at !• ast one-half, or about one-half, of them will get- up the river. How, if there 1b e hesitation of a dry, two days, three da; s#
five days ---- you hear variations from ten days to two or
thr e a. to bow long they stay there •— but certainly, gentlemen, if you permit the Irassr Elver to be lined with boats, fishing boats, fishing gear and gill nets ,pread clear up te the Res 1 inster bridge# they are going to tee it ate a pood deal long about going than they will if the waters are open and be more inclined to go through without any obstruct ionso. You not only have the fresh water over the salt water, but you have it filled with thing., that is going to make them hesitate even longer* 1 think if yon keep the things out of the river the time at which they will hover around the mouth of the river will be very materially lessened. But this is all theory, you can't pet any absolute demonstration of the period of time that they remain there, but if we oan bring it about so that we can be assured that all of the fish that pa s through these waters will get to the spawning grounds we are going to rehabilitate the industry, if there is any merit in Dr. Gilbert's theory that if you let all the fish go through you are bound fo rehabilitait. Io?v, if you let half of them go the proportionate result will follow, ami I want to see them go through. But you can readily see that it isn't going to accomplish t h: t purpose if the Fraser River people can put their nets in and catch the fish as they ?.o past, How, I think a great many of the Eraser Elver people themselves feel just as re do about that. They couldn't agree, but I think they are under the impressionthat t hey ought to have some interval between the first of August. some difference in the gtason. Bow what that is, is for you gentlemen to determine, and you
«
can't get any absolute proof on it at all.
SjO&iff 'ry HSDFIKL^s Kr. McCord, am 1 correct in understanding that your suggestion involves the doing away wi t h the weekly close 9ea son?
MR. HoCOI.D:	That was the point that f started out
to make. 1	say,	if	we can first agree upon a plan	of	a
50 per cent	passage	to the spawning grounds, then isn't it
fair to say	that	if	you once allow the 5-0 per cent	to	go
through there is	no	necessity for th« close season	as	to	the
remaining half.
OalEF JU-VMCE l'AZIII:	Supposing	you take the exception-
al year when the half wouldn't go through, and they are late comia t and you have no weekly close season, wouldn't you have very few fish ~o up to the spawning grounds if you abolish t he weekly close season?i
LI\. aoC KD:	If	you	don't	abolish	the weekly close
season you can't opera se your traps or can't open t e on the praser River* It won* t pay to do it, so t hey tell me over there.* so they seated before our Oemmittee, and I think shat is true on the American side. It is only a few days you are going to have it at most. fake it for the last four years more t ban 50 per cent of the fish were caught before the £ir ■ t of August.
OhIK? JUSTICE EAZBB:	I suppose we will have
figures before us, will we, Kr. iio Corel, to show u t hat # show those f^otsf R hose will be provides for usf
KB. HoOOIvD:	I have one set of figures. I understand
tbe u ash in-it on fisheries Association will here it out at 2:00 o'clock, but 1 nave the figures of the paoifio-Rmerioan Fisheries since 1889, I think it is. During all of that period of tikce I think we nave the record, not of the pack, but of the ostoh of sockeye salmon ev ry day during the year since 1899.	1 am not sure about that. But fefcere is a
difference on that as to where you would draw the line, the line of delineation, so you will get half before the first of August in there, which you have got to get by averages, you have t o fix it, if you can, but that is an
uncertain c nd a difficult question to solve, you don’t know
i
3ust where to fix it. Take i4- during the season as it exists since there hs s been a more or 1 e: r - 3hor tv.ge9 t«ke the last three years, there has very few fish run after thefirst of August; Boat all of them ran before ttoe first.
ABX BKjFIKLT::	But	your	proposition	does	in-
clude, as I understand it, Hr.McCord, the restriction of trap end purse seine fishing by providing t hat it shall not exceed that of the present year, is tfeat it?
MB* IxCCOIaJ:	Ho,	I mean to say that no more trap
locations should be established, leave the people who are in possession have them and own the traps end own the locat tons under the laws of the state, and the number of people who have their * urse seines, limit them to the present quantity, let those be renewed.
AHY SEDFIBIi):	By	the	present	quantity	you	mean
t he q aan t i ty o x the yetr 1918?
ME* Me COTD:	Yes.
SKC.-JKTAHY RRPFIII2); The summer of t bis year?
Uh. KoCOFD; Yes, those in the year 1918, those that are in existence.
3MOBa? AKY EIDFISLI):	Or	those	that	will	be	in
existence by nest July?
MK. HeGOHD:	hell, J mean July, not now, but 1 mean
during the year 1918, because this J? & small year, bound to be one.
R&CR£Y>KY l.L'DFItJ^ :	V>ould	it	stay	a	small	year	under
that condition?
IIP. iRcCOED:	If	you	limited	the	number?	The	trouble
79sb out it, Mr. secretary, is with our state. Every- ody wants to have a lioensa, everybody wants a fish trap, and every one is enfc it led to it, one just as much as another, hut it is difficult to say to one snail you are entitled to fish* and to another man you are nos. Mow, for a reasonable length of time there should be a limitation upon that right* and leaving those that have invested their money and invested taeir property, preserve % fco&e for awhile until the industry is rehahilitated.
How, 30 far as the traps are concerned, we have a law in this state by whioh a man purchases ? license to fish witn a trap. He goes out and he survoys his 1mat ion, establishes it, marks out the posts and takes a survey of it, files it v,ith the Fish Commissioner and the County Auditor, end tht t is bis property, which be can mortgage, sell, give to his heirs and everything else;it is like any other property. No?-, there ought not to be any more of that sort of property created with the industry in its present cond i-t i on.
SKOMi&'Ary KRRDi'LLLa:	what	I had in mind by my ques-
tion was whether if we make the basis the current year, that is the number which esist in July and August of 1918, whether v*o would not cause the very condition that I think you wish o avoid, nf.sely.if that is to be the basis for the near future would there not be a rush on the part of everybody
80to get in by that time, so that you might find your condition greatly in excess4?
RIB. Me COED:	&ell, that might be possibly true,
I h€dn*t thought of it in that way, but 1 think that in the present condition of the industry there is not going to be very much more anyway.
SECRETARY HI SPIELS:	!To, but here is a valuable
property right possible to be created up to, let us sayt the first of August , which after that time would be impossible, we may assume, for some years Re come. wouldn't there be a desire, a normal and proper desire, on the part of everybody to protect that property right for the future?
i@. EqCQBD:	Well,	not	in	the	present	view t hat people
are taking of the state anyway, taking of the fishing industry, I don* t think so, for the rear.on that a great many of the Wishing boats that operated on the Sound last yearf on the Columbia Eiver last year, are in Alaska* These people are moving away the purse seiners.
SBCKJ'TABY KLDFIKLL:	Can	you	give	us	any suggestion
as t o t be ifference in the number of those particular property rights that would exist as between August of laat yefar pz d august of the coming year under normal conditions?
U\. r.oCOHD:	Lell, the trouble about last year, that
was supposed «o be t he big ye ax-, and everybody that could get enough money to take oat a license did it. It was the very
81purpose of not having a Mg year taken as the basis that caused me t o make this suggestion. lou oan see readily 1913 was the "biggest year inthe business. 1917 was expected to be equally as large, everybody prepared for it, so if you take that you take sr: abnormal number. But now 1 am very much pleased to have you listen to me as you have, and t tried to give you the best information that 1 have been able to gather. If there are any questions you gentlemen want to ask me I will try to answer them the best I can. ?f not, I would like to be heard again after we get the figures.
3EGKJ£lAH? EEDKEEM:	Certainly* There is no rule
against that.
bt m. e. r. mim, somaiiviomn of
FI SliEHIK3 OF RLM OTITSD 3R JJTLa*
SSOIai^AEY BEDFi&IF-:	Few, I wanted to ask pr. Smith
this question just at this ja Ini, whether our hatcheries that rear the sockeye salmon are prepared to rear them to the fingerling age?
EH. 3KITH:	It	has	been	our	constant policy to improve
our small culture work on this Coast "by increasing the percentage of salmon that are reared to a fingerling sise before liberation. Comparing the past year with ten years ago you will notice a most extraordinary improvement .in thatrespect• Our hatcheries are gradually being equipped so that a very large proportion of all eggs hatched will have the frye charm0ter or the fingerling stage.
SKOI-Sr-AEY HEDFIEX3):	That matter of policy is
correct, but what I had specially in mind was to meet 5.ireotly t he suggestion made by Mr. McCord?
DB. SMITE:	The only hatchery at which we take any
sockeye salmon eggs in this region is on the Ckagit Eiver.
The number of fist taken there is quite inconsiderable compared with the needs of the Fraser Basin*
3SCEFRMBY BBDFXBIB:	Is it in any wise possible to
increase the number of eggs hatched at that placet
DB. SMITH:	We are taking the eggs from practically
every fish that reaches the lake; at least we are endeavoring to 60 so by means of a trap at the mouth of the lake*
BBOBETAEY BED FIELD:	Are they reared to the fingerling,
stage?
DB* yiilTB:	They	are	reared to a certain point*
I think the entire output is.
SCCHiSim HEDFIELD:	It would be better, would itnot,
if we did rear them all to the fingerling stage?
DR. SMITE:	Decidedly. But v.e are met with the
increased cost;.
SiiCKKI ABT KMDPIMXtD:	Tjpe quest ion, then, is t he a sou at
of money?
DB. SUTh:	Yes.
83SRC. 3?/BY BKDFIELD:	how	much money is required?
how would would be required to put that fart icular hstohery to rear its entire product to the fingerling stagef
DB. BMIT'E:	Well, fifteen or twenty thousand dollars
would go a long ways*
CUla F JlaRICL RAZES:	^hat	hatchery	are	aoa	referring	to?
DB. SMITE:	Skagit River.
Oh IK? JU3CI0E HASBI:	Whose	hatchery	.la	it?
DK - SK1TB:	11 b e 1 ong s to t he feSe ral gov a rmse nt *
CHIEF JU3RI01 IUSKH:	What state is it in?
V'K* 3U1TH:	State of V, ashing ton. That is the only
fishery around the Sound that has eny noteworthy run of sockeye salmon.
C-: IB? JV3TIG& LA2EU:	Ua& the state any ha to he ry in
whioh they rear sockeye sa 1monf
HR* MRWIH:	Only where we take them from the Skagit
Biver from the traps.
GnlE? JUSTICE HAZEU:	And	are	those	reared	to	the
fingerlin • stage?
DB. SJHTB:	We save some of those last year -------- bad
some that we retained ourselves, possibly 50 per uent of them were raised to the fingerling stage*dl AT :1-SM BY EE. Yf. A. FOB HD»
30PiHlHTiayDEHT OF FI SEES IBS OF 0 AH ADA.
SLCaaTAHT BEDFIBLj:	Mr. Found, how far are the
Canadian hatcheries onthe Fraser Eiver prepared to raise them to tbo fingerling stage?
IE. 'OUHB:	ye	had	to	close	our	hatcheries	up	on
account of not getting any egg®. ’Ibe others aie prepared to rear fish to a limited extent, bat there is p broad difference between them, amongst fish culturistst as to the possibility of successf ul 1 y iea in taining t ha fe a a r t i o alar species of fish for the same length of time and until it reaches the same size as to other species of salmon, l4>erionce that we have had in connect ion with one of our hatcheries, our chief inspector of hatcheries, and who is here and can speak with more detail than I can, says that after the frye reached a certain size that it would have proved fatal to have retained it for a longer time, Their instincts are different from tho other species of salmon, and the question is one that* so far as I know, needs this whole question of salmon hatching in connect ion with the
Pacific salmon* needs further and close expert investigation and experimentation.
lav. S^KIT:	There	is	a	difference	in	terminology
which may obscure the point, and 1 would like to say on our side ?>e regera any fish that has absorbed this yolk stage as a fingerling.
85ME* ?OOTD:	fe	hold	all our frye to	that stage.
V.e dispose of none of our	frye until they	reach that st
we liberate none of our frye until it has re .ched the feeding
condition. But over and above that, t here is a question of whether or not we wouldn't be doing a very great deal more
for the whole fishery--------I don't want to take t im ---
SECRET AHY HEDflhll,:	Yes,	1	want to follow that up.
ME, "GOFin Whether or not v.e would not be doing a great deal more for the protect ion of tfcu whole industry* which has beer, found	ru re	feasible with the spring salmon,
if ve retained these	f i -sh	for quite a few	months, until	t hey
got- a good deal larger.
JiCItaR'AixY BL.jflt’LB:	Axe	you	in a posit ion to try
t bat out, hr. Found?
ME. R’OUK.D :	Yes, sir, we are prepared to cry t h> t o vts
and are endeavoring to wnke arrangements to that end on our onw account alone.
l)b* ullllE:	Mr.	Secretary, I would like to say, if it
is in order here, that some exp riments in sockeye salmon culture mat have been carried on by Kr. Babcock in British Columbia may constitute an epoch in the hatching of that species. hey are so extremely different fro® anything teat has been aUemted in artificial propagation of salmon heretofore, and yet appear to be so exceedingly effective, i tig t they have impressed themselves or everybody who has become acquainted with them, and I hope sometime that we will get from ilr. Baboock a statement of his views as tothe modem sookeye salmon	culture as	determined	hy experiments
he has made based	on long	experience	in British	Columbia.
lJR* ^OUJfD:	fhe officer to whom 1 had reference was
the officer in charge of the Federal government hatchery at Harrison Lake, which Rfr. Bah cock has teen following, and following repeatedly, and assisting aim in ovary way.
SBOBi^ABY BE Df I BID:	tou will get a statement from
mr. Bah cook a;? to the result later, if we may?
MB. BABCOCK:	Yes.
HE- LOW [RAH:	Mia McCord omitted one minor	item.
For four years we have stood ready and made the proposit ion that use assist in the financial hurt an of the hatching of the fish on the Fraser liver. Hat ional pride, and justly so, has and outtedly teen one ox the reasons why that offer has not teen accepted. That offer stands today, and mill continue to stand, that we are perfectly willing to assume our chare of the financial harden under the complete dareo-tion of the British Columbia or Canadian authorities in the hatching of she fish. How, we feel that is only just to us and alec to the Canadian people, to state that we have teen* are and will continue to be ready to turn the mone^ over to then atpolu'.ely, trusting them just ao fully as it Is po sifcle to trust any tody, because we have no reason to do otter&ise* ShCEaaAKY KILDF1 1L J:	That was due to your literal
v i e wp o i ntI t h ink, K r. L owman.S5ATfflEBT BY MS. IRAH B8KHT,
?HR o2T)aHM 0? THE A! aEl OAf PUBS a SiSIHS FX3EEBIM3 LEAGUE,
7ACOMA, WASH.
EH. BEBBY:	My residence 1b in acoma, and I repre ant
the purse seiners, t be actuaI fishermen.
SEOBEIABY BEEF!MID:	Glad	to	hear	from you, Mr. Berry.
MB. BEBEY:	If, Your Honorable Body will hear me
I would like to say a word on behalf of the fishermen.
Hr. McCord, who exp la ine-d to you gentlemen the different methods of catching fish, I think that, I do not agree >aHh biro altogether on -some of the view that he has taken- j*irst„ I would like to say this, that the close season from the 20th of July to the 51s i. of August —-
GEIEP JUSTICE HAEBIi first of August.
ME. EEEBY:	31st of August#
ME. KoCOBB:	First of August.
r.E.	BaEEY :	First of August,	ten days close season,
will	not	permit	the 50 per cent of	the soekeye salmon to get
into	the	Fraser	Eiver. I an, quite	aware of that, as I have
followed the sockeye salmon for the last 26 years myself9 and I am not speaking from any experience I got out of books, or college, but from actual experience.
The sockeye salmon begins to run, from the purse seiner's standpoint, from about the Both of July,, but they run in vexy small quantities, and it is a well known fact that the purse seiners’ c^ oh is not, take it in the four-year periods*
88pr--. ot ically bas not amounted fco but very little up to t be 31st of July or first	of August. That means, I	think,	in
my figure, that I	don't think there ■would	be	acre than
ten to fifteen per cent of the sockeye Salmon would enter the Fraser River during that period, because it is the poorest period of the season. ihere are seasons probably when twenty or thirty sockeyes strike in pretty good run§, but that is very uncertain. Again, the sockeye salmon that runs up till tb&t time is mostly female salmon, in my experience I have learn® 1 tfeat probably 76 fco 8q per cent are female salmon and orly 15 to 20 per cent would be male, and I think the combination would not be very good as far as hatching salmon if you permit 6-0 per cent female • nd only RC per cent male. Around the first of August# when tbs fish begin to run in larger quantities, they are 75 per cent probably male na 2b per jent female.
The first salmon runs, the first sotool of salmon that enters the sound, they will play considerably longer out in the deep water	before entering the are	er	Kiver,	oi	any
oth r river, than	the last run of salmon.	f4nd I	think	ta
that all the gentlemen here that know anything about fish will a gre e with me that tha t Is due to the spawn ing c ondit ion. RM e first fish that enter the Puget iound are not quite ripe or matured for the spawning condition as the last run of salmon, therefore the fish that we don’t pet up till the first
9of August on uget sound, they will got those in the Fraser even the 10th of August, and five days would net oover the partisular close season*
I don't agree with RRr- kcOord altogether on the close season for this reason, that the interest Hr. ipoCord represents is mostly people who own traps on -uget dound, and the traps are beginning to bo driven after the 16th day of April, of this month, when the season opens for fishing. There ere a good many under const ruction now* and will be kept building up righ along until June and July. Fany of these traps are located along whidb, Island shores, san Juan Island shores, and other places where spring salmon run in larger quantities, but it has been unfortunate the purse seiners have never made a dollar on spring salmon.
Che s ring salmon never shows their back out of water and they carJt get at those scfc&ols, and that is one reason I Tbtnkj r. McGord's interests recognise the close season between the 25th fnd 31st of July, because they can operate their traps up to the 20 th an3 only close for So days* while he purse seine interests would not have to start in, it *ould be absolutely useless to start in till the first of Vug is t. Ann I v?x 11 ssy t La ; in t be 1918 f 5 sh ing -season, which I have followed up for a good many years on all these even ye:-.rs, v.nich we considered only :: small run of salmon, th«t on the loth of August the run of salmon is over.
90CBI3* JU5TI0B RASE!?:	When	is	it over?
1IH. BMTEY:	About the 13th or 15 of Augu t the sock-
eye salmon run is over. In odd years, such an '15 and '17, when the humpback comes into rugat Sound, the sockeye salmon runs considerably later, and it is due to the fact that the humpback salmon has ?, tendency to travel alow, it, drifts forward and back with the t ide , and in a great mans? oa-.es the schools of sookeyes mix right in with the pinks, or humpback ealmon. as we call them, and run as late sometimes as the lot h of September. Last year, 1917, there were sockeye salmon until the IHth and 14tb day of a e p t a mb ... r, -• 11 ho ug h t h e s e a s on is su p p o 3 ed to b e closed t he 25th. j?or whet reason we all cat oh them I don't know.
Row, I don' fc a prove of the present plan, and I don't approve of the one t m% is proposed, for this reason;
That the present close season is no % effective, I am not going to criticise anybody nor try show it is to anybody's negligence, but it is very hrrd to enforce a weekly close season. 1 have fished on the Puget sound here from Capo flattery u; to Olpmpia for the last twentyfive or six year”, and X h-ve owned purse seines for the Inst twenty p an, and I h? ve Iso been owneS in fish traps, j have los money on it, I want to say that, But there is different
methods of fishing,that) not only one class of psar must
but
obey the law------we all like Go obey the law-----------the otherclass of ge r ©ay be willing and all t. bst, but on many occasions I have noticed they hrve not* And Hr.MoOord has or.allenged fir.yl ody who ean prove Ihose things.
I am not going to get in personalities with anybody, but I r;ct to say t bis, when t he season closes on Friday nigfe at 4:00 o* clock, when the purse seiners all go into the hofcbor for anchorage, when they get out on Sunday morning at 4:0.) o'clock to begin their fishing again, and occasionally tbey get out;, and probably every Sunday they get out, at 5: OC o' clock, and when t hey start around and locate the so bool of fish T have myself, end can bring hundreds of different testimonies here, they mill show many a trap in w:. ich t he re baa been from five to ten thousand salmon.
If they bad fallen from the scow, 1 don't know, but they must have entered from some entrance into those fish traps after they bad closed up at 4:00 o'clock Friday afternoon.
I also had the pleasure of working for these different companies on fist, traps, and ] know a fish trap fro m A to a, and I know it is much easier to beat the law by a fish trap than it is a mrse seine, X am not going to prot ot the purse seiner altogether, 1 they would snap a school of fish, a ad often did. But in Seattle here, any gentleman from the city of Seattle standing out on a pier, you can see a purse seine, which is a bo:-c 65 feet in length and manned by eight, a-en, you can see very well beis fishing, and if he wasn't fishing he would have no busine t her . But a trap is located and is stationary t here, and it is only by a small * ppar* tus wt-ioh prevent ! t he fish getting in, which can be handled by one wan. All t 'ms® traps have one or two watchmen on there. what their In-struct ions are I don't know, but on many occasions I know they have fish inthem during the close s aeon, or right after the close season, when they have no business to have them. I probablynffilght not say this if I a tig trap owner, probably I would violate the law myself. I am not going, to say 1 am any better, but 1 want to say it is much easier to violate the law and to beat the law by a fish trap	than it is by a purse	seiner.
I think that the Fish	Department here has	tried its
best to enforce the law, but it is v^yy hard, because the different districts covering from Cape flattery olear up to point Roberts, %h i eh is a robab1y in the neigbborhood of 50 or GO or 7q or 80 miles, they would have to have a patrol boat -no. watch every trap on the Sound, while with your eye you can see 55 or 40 miles, you a an see whether a purse seiner is making a catch or not. 1 just wanted to say this for an illustration.
Now, i Z ~ • 2a C Cord rncntioned something	about	Baker's	Lake
fish. .Ve have a hstehery	that is lower	in on	Baker’s	Lake
in the jtafce of \;asnington. 1 would say this, that if theclose season covers from the loth of July to the first of August that certainly the Baker's Laics 8© a keys salmon will never pay if they never run into larger quantities than it is running today. I fished here a good many times in t he last three or .our or five years that hatchery has been in existence and I haven't caught one of Baker’s Lake salmon yet. But 1 ¥-111 say this, those fish strike the west shore of Ihidby island, on which si.ore is driven arobsbly fifteen or twenty traps, and these fish lead along that shore, and every fish, before it is ever to get into the Baker Lake, it gets into the fish trap, and that is why: the close season is recommended from the loth c.f July until t he first of August, because they want to get a whack at the spring salmon and want to get s whack at all these Baker’s hake soekeye t from which the purge seiner w uld nev-r make enough profit to buy their license with.
How, 1 think I am speaking t he sentiment of about .hrec or four thousand men. There were last year, if I am correct, the figures have been given to me coxrect by the •its. o Ricense Department 9 about three or four mind red licenses. Rhese boats are marine-i by seven or eight men. how many there will be this year 1 don't know.
R.r. LcCord has made a recca-n endat ion that no more licenses should be granted than what is in operation this year.
I would like to stow t \ is proposition in n:y own point of viewt
94to show you gentlemen thE t. it isn't fair or this reason, that every trap that has been operating lest year, if ft isn't operating, this year they are hold in? onto the location. She location is gooci for four years* You have got to fix it every fourth year. You don't hsve to take hut one saloon out of it if you don't want to* hut simply hold as a dummy location bo no one else can get in there. There are companies here that own fifty or seventy-f 5.ve, or probably a hundred, of those locations. The purse seiners have been in a difficult position this year on account of this justrian ownership, of which I am not an alien, hut an American oifcissen, cut happen to have been born in that country myself. I vs9 horn in palmst ia, and 1 will say for the Austrian fisherman that 80 or 9q per cent of the Aus trians we re b o rn in p- alma t i a on t he a a r i a 11 c Rea.
R hat will suit thee, very nice, if the fishermen, on account of the uncertainty, went to work and sold their boats end probably moved to Alaska and it leaves the entire ?uget Sound purse seine field in theneighhorhood of about a hundred purse seine boats. But just think of it. If re are going to stay at the end of this next yean we might be able to fish, but we would like to have the privilege of getting into the business.
I would like to say this, that ?,e recommend the numberVJ
of last years licenses, not more than was in operation in 1917 would be more right than the number t hat ^ould be In operation in 1918* because it is only due to the unfortunate condition that some of these men are in today, the uncertainty whet her they can fish or not, and that- is what made them get out of business.
I R on’t know how many trap locations there ere, but I will say this, I don’t think one*fourth of them are fished, but s imply held to keep some other fishermen or some other onner out, of which there are marsy t hal don't own one fish trap. 1 want to say this, it is putting the purse seine out of business and would suit a good many of the 08nners on Puget Sound who unfortunately didn't happen to te here early enough in the pioneer days to locate some of these fish traps. There are probably ten or twelve of these csnners rely on nothing but the purse seine and trap.
I know of some of them myself that get a large percentage of their or tab from the purse seiners. Just think of it, gentlemen, you are putting these puree seiners out of business, you are putting ten or fifteen canners out of busine's besides, it would only leeve the fishing industry in the hands of a few capitalists, of which there has been probably here ten or fifteen years, and probably they think no one else has any business in she fishing i - .dustry but themselves, "'hat is my view of it. I may state it a little too strong,
96but if 1 am I am willing to answer any question from any gentleman here,
I have followed this fishing question for a good many years, and have followed it in the legislature and elsewhere, and I know it has always been a hard tussle for the fishermen to get a square deal anywhere because. unfortunately, some of us are not educated enougo, or perhaps the fishermen have not teen organised enough or had money enough to buy their own battle, but that is the way the fishermen have been here, and under the condition of these war times I think a good many people are taking advantage of t he situation that is existing today.
I thank you.
i&OKi&TABY HSDf'l^U):	Mr. Berry, I understand that
you do not approve of the suggestion made by Mr, MoCord for himself and otters of a close season from the Both of July to the first of August; also that you do not approve of the present weekly close period; but 1 do not understand from you that yoh have made any affirmative suggestion as to what you would approve in that respect. What would your idea be?
Ml. BEBEY:	Mr. Secretary, the reason I say I do not
approve of the present; close season, I do not think it is effect ive.
CKCR./MMIHY MaUFJKLi*:	1 understand that. But now what
97do you suggest?
LIB. BBBBY:	,?ardon me, I was going to bring another
point out to show where it isn’t effective, if that is an
mot
answer. Ill classes of gear are alike, fe are/allowed to catch fish fron: four o'clock Friday till four o’clock Sunday morning. I will say that the fish that are not caught on Saturday in the San Juan Islands will be caught at point
Q
Boberts on Sunday, and those that ere not caught at point Boberts or in th gulf of Georgia or: .Saturday will be caught in the Fraser Biver Sunday or Monday; and J don't think the weekly close season has done a tit of good as far as protecting sockeys salmon on auget Sound. I notice some of the canners are in favor of doing away with the weekly season for the 'og salmon season,an# 1 think they vs-ill agree with me it has not been effective. Tbey only left July
and /ugust they cover July t nd August for t be reason 1
don’t think they wanted to get into any conflict with the Canadian people on the other side.
GiilaM JUiflCK iR^.RaF:	Would	the	weekly close season be
effective if it was enforced?
ullo BaxiaY :	If the weekly close season was enforced it
would be better. But tbe close season would be better in the"tlook" system. Let as not fish In Seattle or, Saturday, cut don't let the other fellow catch those fish in Tacoma tomorrow that v,e let by here on daturday. And that is just the
98way it is working out. If the other fellow starts, closes his open season a day or two later then it could be effective, providing it is enforced.
SICESTAEY BE DIP 132 ED:	Your idea, then, is in favor of
a progressive close season?
ME- BEBRY:	Yes.
8aGa ABY HEDFIEL1):	T hen t hat you w i 1 a bear in mind
is the principle of Mr. McCord's suggestion of the ten-clay period, it should be a progressive season, doing away with the weekly season, but substituting for it a ten-day progressive season. Now, I st ill understand you as disapproving the suggestion of the ten-day progre sive season- llow, why,
Mr. Berry?
MR. BEERY:	There is:. 11 enough fish going -—
SECIiET ARY RFDFIELD:	In that period, is that it?
MR. B5BBY:	At that sriod. The best sockeye season
is in the month of August.
SECRET ABY HEDFIEIB:	What would you suggest Ms your-
self in its place?
MR. BKBRY:	Well,	ray	suggestion would be this, that a
longer weekly close season and progressive weekly close season in Mblockn system would be more effective than those ten days in the month of July.
SECRETARY REDFIBLJ:	If I understand you correctly,
then, you would prefer throughout the entire season a longer weekly clor;e season, but a .regressive one?ME. B'EBBY:	A	progressive ore.
BECEETAHY Hii*DRlaLD’ In what you call tbe '‘block* system?
~M* SrJiHY:	les	sir:
MK* B ABC OCX:	How	much	longer, may I asfef
R3M- SEBHY:	1	should	say 48 hours.
MB.	MeCOED:	48 bours	longer?
MB*	RRKBY:	Ho, 46 hours instead of	36*
3£0FMa AHY BEDPIKLB; Then your proposition wouia be throughout the season a 48-hour weekly close season progressively?
Lai* BE HIM ' :	prog re s s i vs.
CHIEF JUSTICE aARBIT:	¥%li, it i s 48 hours now on the
Canadian Bide, isn't it? Above Westminster bridge it is 48?
!RR.	BBBHY:	Above the	bridge it	is.
OK IMF JUSTICE EA2J5I:	And up to	the	bridge it is 48?
KB. BKBBY:	Yea.
CHIEF JUSTICK tAZEM:	Why	should it be longer on	the
Canadian side thin on the American? Is there any reason for that now?
IRE. BMRMY:	I	would	Bay that the Canadian should conform
with trie same arrangement,	that	is, t be t they have	t he	same
weekly close s ea a on on t he	Fra a a r K i ye r, ye s.
Oh Hi 5* JUiiTlCS KA2EN:	You	would say there is	no reason
the close season should be longer on the Fraser giver than it
100is along the 3 trait, is that what I under ste nd you to say?
UK. BIBEY:	Hot any longer, you say?
GKJaf JUS:11 Oh HASfcl:	Ought	to	be	alike?
MB. BaBBY:	Yes.
CHIEF JUSTICE HA«SH:	At the present ime the present
close season on this side is 56 hour,	on the	Fraser H la	43
hours, and above the bridge 48 hours.	How,	do I understand
you to say the olose season ought to be	of equal duration
on both sides of the boundary line?
KB. BEERY:	Yes, in order to be fair to both sides.
Chi RF JUSTICE HASaff:	But	should be fregressive?
IrK. BlaEBY:	Should	be progressive in ffblook'; system.
CHIK.F JUSTICE UAZMK:	What do you mean by t hat?
Lit. 3KRBY:	I mean by that, that if we have a close
season at the San Juan Islands, or along there where the fishing grounds are for the traps and purse seiners, if we have a weekl olose season there, say on Friday and Saturday. How, I think I have explained this before, that those same fish that we didn’t oat oh Friday and sat irday will be three or four limes further nearer the river a day or two after.
QhL.F JUSTICr. KA„£!f:	That 1 a embraced in the word
Vipj ogress .i ve”?
m* BKBBY:	Yes,	sir.
j&CT.h: RRY TMDPIaLJ:	That is to say, if it were Friday
and Saturday at one locality, your idea would be It should be
0 XSaturday end ounday at the next locality?
1IH. BKBRY:	Yes, and Sunday and Monday a I some other,
and probably run in difference of six or seven days going up to tbe Westminster bridge,
LIE- McCQPRD:	May	I	ask	him	just	one	qpieat ion?
£>KCMETABY KSCFIBLD:	Just	a	moment	#	Mr.	Hof;	rd. It is
now five minutes os at one. r. Berry, can you come back this afternoon ? nd resume? we should like to asJfe you some further que at 5 ons at thai tlae?
MB- B^HEYt Yes, sir.
3MCBBIABY BiiDPIKID:	vVe	will take up our next session at
2:30 at this point, and the understanding i», Mr, Hcoord, you wi11 hav« t he opportunity of aga in beRng beard.
IiB* !RoCOBD:	T	hank	you.
(A recess wa:1 taken until 2:30 p. gp. )f he hearing was resumed at 2|S0 o’clock p. m., the Eon. 3ecretary Hedf ie 1 a pres Id 1 ng.
BKCKiiTlBY BiSDFlBlDi	i be	meeting	will	please coaie
to order. Mr. MoCord, 1 think	we	wer >	at the point where	you
wished to ask iRr* Berry a quest ion,
m. Me CORD i 1 think the point, Mr. Berry, that 1 wanted to ask you shout was somet hing about that * bio ok" system close season* Just what do you mean by that? Do you meBS a certain 2one, or two Hones, or what, between the-salmon banka and closing t1 me?
Rp.. BKEHT.	The Puget Sound district be divided Into
two or three ------
Mia lie COED:	Two or three whichf	whit h is your idea?
MB. Bit HE Y:	SAy two.
IT: . McOCa.I):	Tben is	it your	idea	t Rat	tbe -purse seines
should be limited to one 2one?
ER. BaBHY:	Exactly.
Ml. IRoCOMD:	60	that the purse seines, if' you have a
license in one zone, would not follow toe run of the fish all the wf.y up to the boundary line, fcut would he limited arid could only fish in the one gone in which the license was issued? ii£. BaBRY:	Only	during * he close season.
I B. MoCOBD:	1	didn’t mean only in the close season.KB- BUBBT. fbe first son#  
HR. ; o001,1:	tbat is the fact, that they fisb wiH those
high-powered boats, they si.art on the sal.aon banks and follow the senools of 1 ish clear up so the boundary line end get back from the boundary line in one night. How., what was your idea, in order to preserve the fish, that the officers should limit the purse seiner and his boat to one gone and he couldn’t get out of that 3 one?
UR* BERRY:	Fo, that wp .n’t my idea* My idea was this,
tfiat the man that fishes on Friday on salmon banks, or a certain number of boats who are in that particular district, if the Point Roberts district closes a day later those same number of boats, same gear, cannot fisb t ho so fish to :3oint Roberts if they were in the other 2one the day before.
The fishermen ?>onld be	perfectly	willing	to abide by it.
MM*	.'COOMB:	How	would you	enforce	ary such law as
that? You would first h.?,ve to determine w*,ere a certain boat b d been fishing, sr whether on one side or the other of the 2 one, before the close sea- on. 1 don't see how you could e .force that unless you limited it absolutely and entirely an4 at all times to one zone?
MR.	Bi;BKY:	Iwuch	easier to	enforce	because the purse
seine in?	viKible	to any eody, and	I think	if the men were
compelled to make their report .’n that particular day they could be easily traced if they followed fish to the other zone on t be following day.icCOKD:	And	just	one	other	question.	You say you
do not agree with the close season from the 80th of July to t be fir t of August,. Ha ye you any substitute? would you be willing to take	ter	days off	of	the	other	end	of the
season, of the sookeye	run?
MR. SBBRY:	At	the	and of the aeason?
KB* MeCOED:	1	mean	on the other side of the first of
August. Would you be willing to close down fishing from the first day f August till the iQth of Augustf
m. BEHEY:	from	the	15th	----
UP. LoOORP:	From	the	first	of	August	to	the	loth instead
of the 20th of July to	the	loth?
MB•	BhHEY:	I peraona 11y myself don't	t aink t hat would
fi i ve	the	purse seiners a square deal.
MR.	MoGOHP:	well, by a 'Rsqusre deal”	do you mean they
wouldn’t make enough noney to make it profitable?
Rat.	J3KBEY:	Well, it would seem to do	t his, t hat b if
of	theia,	twothirds of them, it wouldn't pay	them to rig up
if they knew they would have to stop in the heart of the season.
Ra.. KcG0?o):	The	trap is really a benefit to the purse
seiner, be os use they catch them in front of .he trap?
1IR. BSBB \ :	Absolut	el	y n o t.
i!H. lioQOKD:	well,	1	have	tried,	ar.	Berry,	to formulate
soae fair plan by which approximately 50 per cent of the salmon °ir.ould ?et o the Fraser River, or t-o the spawning groundeud through the Eraser Biver. Iwwould like to ask whether you t h in*. it wo Id be advisable, instead of letting that fir't 50 per cent go by t-o hire the Is at 50 par cant go by?
ME. BaKB :	1 would be acre in f? iror of that*
IB. iloCOaD:	wouldn't that interfere* however, with
the fishing for the humpback salmon during two years, or any yearSt
KB- BKBBY:	It would.
3. acGQKI):	f bat would praot ically put *he humpback
salmon out of business, too, wouldn't it, taring the last half?
KB. BaHKY:	Yes.
C3. iicCOED:	Your idea, then, would, be that it would be
more nearly, or be more beneficial to the fish.to take the last half first?
IRK. BaBBY:	Take the tail end of the season, ten days
of	the tr-	LI end	of the season.
UK.	.cCOr.D:	Chat would yon think	the	time	should be
Id	order	to set	the last half? You say	there is	only	6bout
17	per cent, if	1 union fcand you correctly,	that	pass	through
the we tors of Puget .Sound prior to the first of A'gust.
At what date would you say that half of them passed?
IRK- BrlBKY :	cell, thst's pretty hnrd to regulate ,
Lir. lie Cord, because the fish don't run alike on each year.
A
OH.	McCOHB:	Mel;, on an average,	I mean.
RR. E MRMRf:	During	* he humpback years, which is on
ev. ry odd yeer, even the so oka yes run as low as the 85th and 50th of August, and sometimes considerably laker; but on the even years, when there are no humpback# ru uing, I think the 15th of August is the end of the sockeye season,
MB KcCOMP:	Well, when is the middle of it; we
are trying to find out something that will be useful to the Com: isaion, &nd 1 -oi11o 1ike to get your idea, as you do not agree with the figures which I have tried to place upon the records?
MB* BEMBY:	Xhat ia what 1 am trying to show, t bat
either tbe end of tbe sockeye season or the end of the close season. Take in the hesrt of t he sockeye season would not be very effective. The block system would be more c.ffective.
; R	McCOHB:	Then you are	not in favor	of	any	close
season for one-hr. If of the saason at all?
ill-.. BMRBT :	1 am in favor of 50 for cent going to British
Columbia.
no ^
. LcCOZ D:	And	the	weekly close seas on/m advance?
HE. BBHBY:	Ho.
MR. KoCOMM:	what	do	you	mean	when	you	say you ought
to have 48 hours close season?
MK.	BMBIvY:	Have no close---
MR.	LcOO.D:	Have no other	close	season	except	that?MB. BKBEY:	Yes.
ME-	: oCORa:	You th ink that, would he sufficient,,	do	you?
MB.	BKBBT:	If it is enforced in proper shape it	would.
IMR* lie CORD:	I beg the Commission's pardon. I don't;
know whether I have any business raising these questions or not ?
La. 3RKMT :	Yes,	certainly	you have.
MB.	R.cCC.RD:	You mafe the statement, Mr. Berry,	if	I
correctly understood yon, that only about 17 per cent	of	the
salmon, socfceye salmon, were caught before the first of August,
IRK. BMBBY:	Take it in the peri ad of four years, !Rr.
KcCord.
HE. Mo CORD:	V*ell,	take	it	in the years 1914, IR15, I'fi6
and 1917?
HR. BaEHY:	Well,	from	the	:>urse seiners, and the men who
purchase the fish from s be purse seiners, I should say it is.
HR. MoCORM:	You have any records of that, have you?
1IR. BKEBY:	1 haven't got any records ejtaotly on that,
tut a oan state t his, that in 1913 I had a boat fishing out for myself, era! I happened to he buying fish for some of our company ©round the Sound, and on the 27th day of July that 1 saw & number of earners out in the fishing grounds talking to different fishermen and fish buyers scratching their head and wondering v hether the sookeyes were coming into Puget dound
M Aft
JL OL05
or not, and it happened in 1917; arai 1 will say during that
i	iiae many fisbing boats that bad turned out probably as rnuoh as 10,0)0 soekeyes during the soekeye season of 1917 tbat hadn't had more than four or five hundred soekeyes during the aionth of July. We bad tuo particular big years, or the four-pear cpcle, wh ich we all know is Rns big year*
MM* Me00ED :	? he "ao if ic-American Fisheries perhaps
□ over pretty generally all sect ions of 6 he Round, don't they? .. hey have fish traps on the salmon banks and through the Gulf of Georgia, --nd Rosario ptrais and around the Bap, don’t they?
MB. BIRr.BY:	Yes,
RRR. Me00HD:	Their records ought to show the fair and
cverape run f fish, ought not they?
1/S. BR; REX :	Yes, t hey o ug h t t o.
LB* MoOOIM):	Yes. ,eli, now, if during the years 1914#
’15, '16 and T17 those records show -— assume that they are
accurately kept that more than 50 per cent of the fish
have been caught before Mhi first of August* you would thidc that was a pretty fair criterion to go by, rather than your independent judgment, would yru not, Mr. Berry?
:	11, I waul	is,	■	>rd,
in these j rtioular big years there is more fish caught in ti.et one particular year than there is in the other three years on uget Sound.
1
.A.MB* IcCQMD:	That	is	ail	I	want	to	ask	at	this	time.
Ci.IMF JUSTICE HAZW:	Mr. Berry, would you be ?ood
ego ugh to answer me a question or two. You said it was an easy matter for the owners of the fish traps to beat the law. Now, in those fish traps there is a close season from four
.
c*1 cloak Friday afternoon until Sunday morning at tour o'clock?
ME* BERBY:	Yes sir.
CHIEF J0STIGE SAZEN:	And	did	I	understand	you	to say
that you went out there on Sunday mornings and found those traps full of fish?
MB. BMKKY:	Hot myself, but hundreds of other people,
fishermen, will testify to the same thing.
OhIMF JUS. I CM HASMU:	But	you	have	seen	it	yourself,
t h o ug h, h av e y o u?
MK. BEBBY:	1	have	seen	it	on	many	o	ocas	ions.
CHIEF JUSTICE BAZEH:	On	many	occasions?
MK.BEBBY:	Ye s,s i r.
CEIEF JURRICE LAZFJT:	Now, in order to observe that
close season the owner of the trap is supposed to lower a curtain, or what do pou call it, technically speaking?
MR* BEBBY:	In order to observe the close a ason the
oftner of the fish trap, who is represented by two men who are watohing those traps, two men in the ay time and two during the night, there is a pa^sfcgeway entering into the trap.
OKIE? JUSTICE EASE!;7:	Yes.
110MR. BSHBY:	Fire	t; com Licence wit h what t hey call t he
hearts. It is driven in the shape of a eart. Then it oomes to a smaller heart. It is the same shape, driven in the same shape, only smaller. And tbe next is much smaller. Then comes the pot, and i, hen the spiller. 'R he entrance of the big heart, which is the first entrance, the fish enters and getb into the trap. In observing the olose season it is supposed to be closed.
CEIKF JUSTICE BA3EH:	Haw do you close it?
ME. BE HEY:	There is an apron from the top,., from the
surface of the water, or top of tbe piling, running clear
down to the bottom of the Sound. This gar on runs----------------there is
£ cable stretched on each siae ---on the outside pile of this entrance to the near t a, and there is a cable stretched from the top to tbe bot tom. On this particular apron, or web, there is 2 rings which slides up and down on this cable, and, so far as 1 know, is placed about four feet apart, and when this apron is down t o the bottom of the dounn the fish, of course, cannot enter the trap.
CKIKF JU3RIGE EAE&2T:	How,	there	is	no'	difficulty	in
lowering that apron, is there?
: R. BKHEY:	There	is no difficulty at ell.
Chi a? JUSTICE iiAZKF:	And	if	tbe	apron	is	lowered	the
fish cannot get in?
IRK. BaRR^Y:	The	fish	cannot	get	in	then,	sir.CEIiSF JUaTIGl &AZS8:	So that if you find fish in the
trap, or so e them in the trap on a Sunday morning, as you have seen them, then the conclusion to be 6rawn is that the apron has rot been lowered?
RJR. BKBBY:	That the apron probably might have been
lowered, but been raised during the particular time when the fish were there and ready to enter.
CHIEF JUSTICE EASE??:	dell* now, are you, Mr, Berry,
prepared to say, from your observation and what you have learned from others, as to whether or not there is general violst ion o f tho law in t hat reepee t ?
Mi.. BRavEI:	1 would not say it i a general, but I will
say the ss me as I nave said before,, that on many occasions, and	I I ve heart aany complaints,	tnd 1	know	a majority of them
are	true, that traps haveviolated	the law.	I have got this
from watchmen on • he traps, and pot this from the purse seiners, end l have seen it myself.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZE a Ye«.	well,	now,	these traps are
o	on s t ruot; t o v. i t h 1 ong 1 e ad s runn ing out	f r om	t be m, aren’t
t tiey'i
KH* BKItEY:	Yes, connect ing to the heart and from there
to the shore?
Ob ILF JUST ICS EAZKB:	These long leads run out so that
tue salmon coming up the Coast will strike this lefic! and work its way in alon£ t be lead until it comes to the entrance to
112tbe trap# tha.t is true, isn't it?
MR* BaHHY*. Yes, sir.
CHIEF JU37101- HA2aTT:	Some	of	those	leads are as long
as 5,000 feet, are t hey not?
UK. BEERYi I think: the state law, the law of this state permits them 2500 feet.
CHIEF IU37IC& HAgEIi 2500 feet, fell now, if an apron is down, a salmon strikes this lead and comes in gradually along to where the opening is9 and the apron is down so that it cannot get into the trap, dees the salmon oonti nu© around in t hai locality where the entrance of ha trap is, or doe3 he go out again and around to the end of the lead and ewsy?
MB. EEI-iKY:	Well, that salmon--------the construct ion of
the trap is so that there is a jigger connecting to that heart, runs all the way from, on some perhaps 160, others four or five or six hundred, or possibly a thousand feet in length. And the book on the end of that jigger, probably a hundred feet across# but even when the apron is closed the fish does not immediately go by, but if the tide sets the fish tround the i op there, they mill be sometimes for hours playing on the lead an the jigger. fhat book leads them right back into the lead and from the lead into the opening, and from the opening into the hook, fnd for hours sometimes the fish will play in that vicinity.Cl IMF JUMRXOM LASMI:	1	he	result even if tbe law is
observed srA this apron is kept down during the close season, that the minute it is raised there may be a very great many salmon just waiting there to go into the trap,
MB* BMHHY:	On	isany ocoasions.
CHIEF JUST ICE HASFJf:	On	many occasions. So that the
result of the close season will not be very effective.
ME* EE8HT:	Mil —-
CKIMF JUSTICE MASill:	That	oocurs on many occasions,
does it?
MB. rMxiFY; liany ocoasions.
OEliSF JUSTICE HA2KIT:	How	many salmon might you find
waiting there on the trap when you take up the apron?
Ml . EKESY:	‘That all depends. If there is no salmon
r nning there will be very few, end if the salmon are running
in Inrge sohools-------supposing you have to raise your trap at
four o'clock on Sunday and a large school Qoir;es along and strikes tbatlead and wants to get in there about two or three dolock in the morning it is the chance that tbe fish will play around there for en hour or hour and a half, and even if the apron is raised at four o’clock that fish, you might as well say9 has been caught right there.
GRIEF JUSTICE EASE If:	Yes. Well, do most of the salmon
---let me ask you this question----------do most of the salmonthat strike the lead during the close s-ason work their way in along the lead, into the Jigger, into the trap? Would cost of those salmon make their way out again before the apron is opened, or would they be playing eround there and wait till tbe trap or apron is • opened?
MB* BREST:	5bat depends on when they strike there,and
until the opening of the apron, and depends upon the we a t he r a n3 t be t id e o ons ide rably.
O': IMF JUSMlCf MA/Mr'-t:	Jt	would depend somewhat on the
way the Ride was sotting?
ME. BMEBY:	Y s, sir.
OK IB? J R-TRI OX KA ZBI; And upon t be way t he wind was blowing?
MB- BlaEHY:	Yes sir.
CFTM? JUo'RIOM MAEE- ; But under certain condit ions of tide and wee the r would, it be correct to say that nearly all those fish would find their way into the trap without escape?
RR. BMHBY:	Well, if they had struck there, say an hour
or two before Mae o >eninp of the apron.
CRl/RP JUSRICa MAb-MT:	Yea. rben they would nearly all
find i . eir way into she trap, they wouldn't find t ime, to work their way back?
MM. I .a HEY :	Yes.
C DM? JRR I CM l-RMjMM:	r	here	ere	t? great many of these
tr a. fi & long the aoast f are there not?MH. BKBEY:	Wherever	they	could be driven.
CHIEF JJ3TIC& EASES':	Do	you know what it costs
to construct one*?
MB. mwt:	I he actual cost of one?
OH IMF JUJTIOE EA2BH:	Yes.
MH. BBHBI:	Well, they vary from |j25 to §25,0DO.
It depends on the depth of tbe water an<3 on the length of your trap, and depends on the current. Some districts they have to be consfcr u we consider a b 1 y St r ons er t he n o t b e r s.
CHIEF JUSC1CK MAKSTw; What is the annual expense of ma intaining t hem, I mean repairs end keeping them up?
KB. BEERY:	To	keep	them upf
CHIEF JUSTICE LAZen:	Yes.
MR.- BKBKi:	Well, that I would not say exactly. It all
depends. As I say, it goes according to what **he trap cost. In some particular leers ions probably it is only goal for one year, and other places they will be pulled out again and replaced and the same piles put in again the very nest year, Then if a tide, if a current is strong, it will chafe the web a good deal more than on the others. 8ome will last a couple of years and others not more than one season, and some don’t last a full season. 'That is the netting they put on t nem.
CT.IKF JUS'.: I CSS aASMH:	3ome	of these not owners have a
116large expense every year, or those trap owners, 1 mean?
ME. BBRBY:	Yes sir.
CUE? JUSRICE MAE1M?; How, hoi fax away from these traps are the' seines that you apeak of, these purse seines?
MB. BKBBY:	W®11, t be purse seines vary all around.
They follow the fish; wherever the fish go they follow.
"’hey pull these seines on boats. They follow the fish wherever it, is seen regardless of depth of water, and the seine is pursed at the bottom in the shape of a pursef and that prevents the fish from escaping.
OHIM? JUSTICE H/2EI:	I	suppose s great many more fish
are caught in the traps than in seines?
lilt. BLHEY:	It has teen for t ha former years, x think
in the pest two or three years 9 I thine if the records are correct, which I think they are, it shows the purse seiners have naught a lar er eroentf,ge of salmon than the traps have* But that is probably due to the increase in number of seines.
CE1RF JUSTICE EAEBj?:	There wouldn’t be anything like
the expense to the purse seiner that there is to the trap ovfner?
ME. BEBKY:	Well, it is ;onsIderab1® expense.
CHI MM JU3RICS HA3LF:	It	wouldn't	be	nearly	so much.
The first outlay of the purse seiner wouldn’t be nearly so much as the trap owner.
ini the first outlay is more, but the power boat we use will last longer than the piling on thetrap, although our seine cost us about the sa © as the traphere does. sometimes it lasts one so as or. and maybe part of the nest # but very a aid ora more then one season.
CKIaF JUCTIG1R aASL:T:	I would like to ask your opinion
as to whether or not the olose season as it is enforced on this side of the intermitioral boundary is effective for the preservation of fish?
MR. BEBKY:	It	is	not.
SBCFtESARY BED?JIM):	Mr. Berra, you say you have your-
self repeatedly seen, on iunday morning at four clock, or close to four o*clock these traps with quant itiea of salmon in t hem?
MB* . KRBY:	Fish	in t hem, yes sir.
S^OrSTAHI SEDFI&U:	Have	you	ever	seen yourself an
apron open during the olose season?
£E. BEHRY:	lell, Mr. Secretary, I would like to say
this, t ha t detect ing a v i olat ion of t he la?; of t he t rap i s
very difficult for this reason, that the depth of the water
about ihe entrance of the heart is probably around 60 feet.
&owf the main depth of the water 'where the law permits them to drive traps is 65 feet at low tide, ^hiofa means around
80 at high tide. How, I should judge that the entrance of
the ma in he© r t # t he first e nt ranee of this fish ent ranee #
there is probably 6q feet of water, and in some cases 65
at high tide. That is how those aprons are made to extendfrom the top to the bottom.	Jfow,	in	order	to	detect	that
trip, whether there is fish or not, you have to be right by tcat apron: in f ct, you aguld have to have a grapple hook and find out whether this apron is to the bottom or not.
I have seen aprons in probably some places where the depth runs 60 feet, I have seer, them only made 40 feet in depth.
Then other t isees J have seen them where they are rolled up snd just kept about two or three feet under wate r, and if you go* by tia t trap, within 15 feet away from it, you o@mldn,t tell whether it is down to the bottom. It looks as though it is, but maybe only t^vo or three feet below the surface of the water, and salmon will sound 50 or 75 feet, because our purse seines * re a hundred feet deep, and many limes we lose those salmon because they dive right under.
SEOBBT;RSY HKDFI&LD:	Then	do	I understand you to say
that it is t matter of common knowledge that the particular
fish of which we are talking now, the sookey© salmon------------- by
common knowledge 1 mean among the purse seine fishermen -------------
tha* tf e close season for sookeye salmon is commonly ignored by reason of leaving the apron?in whole or part open?
La . BRiEEY:	In	many	instances.
SaC KTABY 3EDF1E13:	And	you	wish	th	Ooinmissi	on	to under-
stand that it that law were, in t he respect you spes> of, carefully observed, it would mean that a large number of fish would be pres rved that now are caught?
119EB. BEBBY:	Yes,air.
. p ;	-4	Then,	in	your judgment, one of
tbe things t be t ought to be done in connect ion wit, \ the con-
serve t ion of tbe fish is to take steps to see that the law is carried out?
MB. BEEBT:	Y es,3 i rf
SECBETRBy BED?2ELD:	And	it is your recommendat ion
that there be a 48-hour whckly close season?
MB. BEBBT:	W©	would	prefer that to any other close
soason.
CaGE ER ABY BEDFlBlJ:	And that is based upon a careful
coapiiance with the law as regards tbe closing of the aprons, is that it?
HE. BEERY:	Wby# I would ssy this, that the closing
of the trap by the apron will never be effective, because we all know what it means. How, there may be probably at times vmen even the watchman is working against the law, or against tbe orders of the company, but it is tbe ambition of a man Yv-ho works on t b t trap, who is getting probably §50 or $75 or It-100 a month, it might be his ambition to show his employers
that be is able to show on Sunday morning some fish around
i
half past four or five o'clock in the trap, end probably if he sees a big school of fish coming he might do it against the will or orders of the company; hut it is the nature, it is so essiiy lowered and raised, that it £ ives the opportunity,
120if 8 man wants to violate the law. I- he lowering of the a nr on Is just like as if you cut a clothes line era down it gees.
Tbe raising of the apron,one man can raise that apron, because tber< is no weight outside of probably 10 or 15 pound rooks at etoh corner of it.at the bottom, and the apron is so lipht 1 can put it, under my arm when it is bunched together. But if
it was ,ome otter kind of-------something similar to which they
use in Alaskan waters, for instance, which is under Federal contiof. Mow, in Alaska they don* t close the apron, but they close t he entrance to the pot. They let the fish get right into tbe heart, but they open £5-foot of heart on each side of the pot right next to the tunnel.	When the tunnel is closed
tbe fish cannot pet into tbe net.	And when they get into the
pot, the spiller, they cannot get out any more. But they have it fixed so they can make an opening £5 feet wide on each side of the smell heart right nest to the tunnel* when the tunnel is closed and the opening 25 feet wide the fish, if it enters the heart, it slips freely through the heart and right out next to the pot. That is the enforcement they have in /■ I sMa. I have seen many of %tose.
MM. SMITH:	let me inquire, Mr. Berry, whether this closing
by means of the apron Is the only method followed in saabinston in making a trap ineffective during the close season?
MM. BKREY:	Well, t here might be some other wsy.DE. SMIMRB:	ell, is there any other way in the State
of Washington?
MR.	Bi uERY:	You me a n it bout the -—
DR,	SMITH:	In a id it ion o the a.se of	the apron.
MB. BMKHY:	In	addition	to	that?
CHIU1 JUSTICE RaZMM:	IB	there	anything else now done
in addition to that?
MR.	BEERY:	lo, there is nothing else	done now. Just
t 're apron and t lid	heart. I didn't get that	at first.
MR. McOO Ra:	how	does	it happen, Mr. Berry, you don't
report some of these violations to the Fish CommIobloner?
R;M. EJHEY:	Mr.	McCord,	if 1 correctly remember, I was
secretly of the Puget Sound urse seine fishing Protective Associa:ion, of whioh I wan secretary for seven years, A great many reports on the fishing grounds had some from the fishermen, why should they lay in the harbor when the traps are fishing? This is at 3an Juan Islands.
MM. KcCORD:	Did	you	have	any	specific informat ion of
a particular violation, or was it general?
RIK. BEERY:	Many	of	them,
MR. KcCQViD:	Well,	I	say,	did	you point out some parti
cul-.r t rap thr. t was vi o 1 at, inp the 1bw?
M. £ M.MY:	hbH,	I	probably show you sen in this
audience here -------
OO
_fL Aa* IB.	MoCOMM:	I	say,	did you ever do anything as re-
Why
present at, ive of the -uget Sound Fishermen here? $id you not report that?
MB. BMBBY:	Let me state, Mr. IRQ Cor a, we have taken
those steps upon the suggestion at this meeting, we have appointed s committee, if I remember it oorrcctly, of six, wbo went to m et the state Flab Commissioner Darwin, who w s, I think, just elected tea Commissioner probably six months previous that year, something like that. This commit too went to Mr. jparwin, and we made the complaint on these traps, and we even asked that he deputize some of us men t ha . we can, if necessary, report these a^en. Mr. Dar-win had toId us, and the Commiitee will baok me up on this, that it would be useless, or it wouldn't be fair from the purse seiner’s standpoint if we were ;ie>mt iaed in any way, bees use ii would swow we were trying, one Interest was trying to hurt the other, and the matter would drop right ttere. In feat, we were given to understand that even if the purse seiner reported a trap man that probably the authorities wouldn't believe it, because it would show more or less rivalry in -;be business. ;,e dropped the matter there, and hardly ana of us mede any attempt, but we know.
8; C MR AMY i.MIjFIM1D :	J st a mcaent , Mr. Berry. I
would like to read into the record the federal law as regards this ; .a i er j n Alaska. {Mead ing )."Throughout the weekly olose season herein prescribed the gate mouth, or tunnel, of all stationary or floating traps shall be closed, and £§ feet of the web or net of the 'heart* of such traps on eaoh side of the entrance to the 'pot® shall be lifted or lowered in such manner as to permit the free passage of salmon and other fishes.*
rj?hat is the understanding?
Mi. BE 1ST:	fhat is the law i have reference to.
3rOE RRARM SgBFULD:	wow	recently have you seen anything
of this kind, Hr. Berry?
MB. 3MBit:	In	Alaska.?
BMCBiRMAHY ER-DFIBLD:	Mo, in Puget Sound. X mean any
of the traps with quantities of fish in thorn on Sunday morning?
I AM PMIM.Y:	..el*	we	see-	them luring the summer Wishing
season wi en we are out,
SMC3RMABY R 'MlIElM:	Did	ou	Be©	there l»tt season?
IB. BHKhY:	0b}	yes.
w&CRiCX/KY BMDFIKLj:	Did	you see them t his lest season?
mi. BMBBY:	Yes,	sir.
SMCKMMMliY BKDPXM1RD:	How	many did you see last season?
IMB. BEHHY:	I	should	say	on two or three different
ooossi ons.
JuCR.MTAMY I&DF1KL.3:	Are	thexe any gentlemen her© associat-
ed with your organisation besides vourself?
M. BEHHY:	Yes,	sir.
SEOBKT AHY BE BF IB LB:	1 would like to speak to ore of t ha
others.
-> CJ A _I L & u±ST AT EM .NT BY MS. J. J. PETRICE,
OHAIS1.AT OF THe EX. COM. AMERICAS PURSE SKINK S,IEHEEMP;N3 LEAGUE,
I'AOOHA, WASH.
8E Cr EA .Ei IE. jFIeLD:	.'.tve you fceard the staSenenta asaSe
fcy Jr. Terry regarding the oondition ol’ traps on Sunday morning? MR. EEIBICH:	1	have.
SECRETARY BEDFIEID:	Have	you	ever	witnessed	anything	of
ii as t it in d y our se1f?
K* JriiiKICE :	I	have.
SBGBET AliY EEDFISID :	Wtenf
ME. PETEICE:	Pract1©ally every year	t hat	I have	been on
the	Sound, with tbe except ion of one, and	that	was in	1116
I don't think 1w s on the Bound —- 1916,
yiO&if KY KRf^IalJ:	dan you state of year own knowledge,
state thet the oondition you have suggested is well known to exist among fishermen?
liB. R hi OK; It to a oosoaon orrurranoe.	They take it
for	-ranted. It %% well tinders-tood.
oaOa ff'a':Y ILCDFIELD:	Can	you	state	of	your	own	knowledge
that the condition of which you speak arises from a definite violation of law?
iff- fLTRIGE:	The	reason it arises, in my opinion, and
a good Lany more fishermen’s opinion, is that it is absolutely pfcgjBioally impossible for the #i s h Commissioner# or any reasonable amount of deputies that he mip.ht deputize, unless they was
absolutely stationed on that trap, or within 10 or 20 feet of
9 K
JL {**that trap, to enforce then Is we. I have gone on record on that before, Mr, B^dfieXd*
SEC KRAEY BBDFIKLD; ?hen, if 1 understend,you* your testimony is not intended in any degree as a reflection upon the officers of the state.
MB. PKTE1CB:	Absolutely	not.
SECKEiABI KaDFXELD:	That is	what 1 unSerstaaft.	¥ou
repard the condit ion, if	I	get you	correctly-----if I	do not,
correct me ----- then, fs a condition which it is at present out
of the power of the authorities to prevent,
TRB. PaaSICE:	Absolutely.	Unless, as I sa id before,
that be would place a deputy on each partioular trap, either stationary on the trap or on a boat, which is not practicable on account of weather conditions at times, possibly within 1o or So feet of that trap. I1 he re from a purse seiner's stand-P int 1 would judge a deputised ament of five or ten, or possibly fifteen, commissioners or deputies, at the very utmost fifteen, could detect any purse seiner not obeying the law in that respect, owing to the fact t hat a purse seiner puts bis net in the waterand feery seldom gets it up before forty-five minute? or so, up to an hour and a	half.
3aCRRf£?AHY BBCFIKLa:	T ben is	it your viewpoint	that t he
present close season as it is now operated is effective or ineffective es regards the conservat ion of fish?
IRK- Fa "RICE:	Under	the	present	law	it	is ineffective.If i'm law was probebly arranged	that it could be	used
effectively there is no quest ion	but what it	would work that
way.
CRQIMRR ’ HY SKMXBIB; Are you familiar with the con-s t rue 15 on us®# in A la skaf
U . PET HI OH:	lo sir, I am not, 1 am familiar with
the las.
3a0aaTAIQr SB1>F1>-12):	Do you know why tbe mm com*
struct ion ust- d in Glasha is not used in R>uget loundf
RIB- muzim.; Well, I know this much, ?tr. £edfield, that the purse seiners, having representatives in Olpmpia on several occasions In Several different years, of' which Mr. Berry was "heia, j think, three different sessions, have attempted at times to try and get snob laws by the Legislature of tbe State of Washington,	practically	the	same	law as
we have under Federal control in	Alaska, and	for	some	reason
he was always unsuccessful/ in fact, they would bring up different objections that, of course, seemed to have eon-aid tab 1 e more we ig ht t ban our argument s would, and for t hat reason i‘ was rlways impossible to get any regulations that did not suit tbe particular interests topass that kind of laws. .. bet her it was from the standpoint that we were not influential enough, or not able to pay our side of it, I dor.’ kaon?, hut j s seemed that we failed on it every time.
C.uCR.a’-' \KY jFIEZD:	Thank you very such, p;r. pet rich.
R;r. Sweet vs-istes to ask I r* Berry a question.IRS. Sn ;,rn:	Mr.	Berry, 3 think from what vou and some
others have said that the ' ime in which the sockeye salmon are running is limited to about 20 days or three weeks?
]RB. BEEHY:	Of	these even years, what they call the
small years, just about three weeks.
ME. SMEjSM :	In	the small years?
ME. BEHRY:	In	the small years,
13. S1MET:	How	about ISIS, 1917, years like that?
Ho% long is the run?
MB* BKBBY:, Ob, five or sweeks?
MR.	Sl-M aM:	five or six weeks. Commencing	st	what time?
MR.	1MMRM :	Commencing not before	the £Sth	of	July, and
somet iaes not before August 1st, that is, any heavy run of fish. There nre * few commerce running probably around tbe l2theor 14th or lotr of July, but the catches arc very limited, only run in small schools.
LB. S.uRMT:	How do you figure that in the off years,
so to speck, 1914, 1915, and 3.916, for Instance, that you would get 50 per cent on ibs spawning grounds if you only bad tv>o days a v*eek, or 48 hours, of close season, even if it wes effectual?
ME. 3MR..Y:	I	wouldn't say we would actually get 5o
per ent	on tbe	spawning grounds.
MJR.	R'?RE ET:	Don’t you think there	ought to	be	50 per
cent tLft ought to be permitted to re oh tbe spawning grounds?mb. BMKMY:	Yes, ought to. But 1 wouldn't say these
two days of weekly closing season mould permit -5C I of these fish to get to the spawning grounds, although it might happen during these tmo particular days, there might more fish go through than orDrably in some two weeks.
RSB.SSEiSP:	Wall,	you couldn't	figure on that.	Those
two days	might he the	days when the	least would got
KB*	BaMMI;	fhat is true.
MB.	SW1ET:	You are figuring	on, say, three	weeks
in a practical season, not one of the big years, you are figuring on ttree weeks of rest, say twenty-one days?
HR. BMBRY- Yes.
MR.	3';. MRS :	And	if you figure	on sis days when t hey
would he	permit ved to	go by without	being caught in	the traps
or	in the purse	seines, fifteen days when t hey w#all	be	caught.
RJow,	how	do ou	figure tat 50 per	cent would get	up	to	the
spawning ground?
MM. BEBRY:	1 wouldn't say exactly that 50 per cent
would get o tbs spawning grounds.
MM- SV.RMiT:	Bell, f>t that rate would 30 per cent?
MR* BMKRM:	Probably	in 3ome years, 50 per cent, or 55,
and other years 50 per cent or more. It all depends on how many fish went through on those close seasons. Let me illustrate this. There are some!imes the fishermen with the ir purse seines and the people who own the traps, sometimesthey ostoh more fish in two days than they will other times
in twenty days.
MM- SWMET:	Don't	you	think	Hr. McCord’s suggestion of
taking half the time,	or whfet is	estimated to be	half the	time,
hev ing that wi tho at fi	shins, the	other ha If wi t h	f1 &hing ,
would aecomplsh the result better than your plan would in bavins part of each week, two days each weeic as a close s©&som?
25R* BEBBY:	That depends & whole lot on how the fish
tsouIcI strike. If the fish didn’t start running up until the 29th or 30th or Slst of July don't you think those first days in fuly would permit many fish to go to the spawning grounds?
I4R- CRaa:.1:	If	you let them &ip through, say ten days or
twelve days, or some definite period, of close season, the way r. McCord suggest 3, wouldn't you get a better result 9 if you get half of the time, to divide it right off that way wouldn’t it be easier	to enforce	and wouldn’t it	be more
certain of getfing 50	per cent up to he spawning grounds	than
it would the way	you are	talking about?
MM • ESK’Y:	T think	it would be easier	to	enforce, but
1 wouldn11 say it wouId per it any more fish than it wou1d other-.i3e to get. through°the spawning grounds.
ICE. SOM:	That’s	all.
CMC MIALY EKD^I£~RD:	Is there any difference,	Mr. Berry,
in the time when the fish run on the surface or near the bottom?
RIM. MMBKY:	fo, I don’t think there is. I don't get youright on that. 1 don't know just exactly what you mean on that?
RMGMMT \KY HEDFIMLD:	How deep do you go for fish?
MB. 3MRKY:	How	deep	do the curse seines go?
2MCMBMAKY EEDFIKLJt Yes.
MB. BMHKY:	Mollf the fish usually Plays along the surface,
and the only time we can catch them is when we see them play at thr surface of the water. They make come glow, they either jump out of the water or —-
BECHETaBY HED1IEID:	Bow deep do you go?
MR* B MRHY:	We go as deep as o«*r seines go. Our seines
are so constructed and so made up so they will probably go a hundred feet in ds th, or about- ninety or a hundred feet in depth in the water.
Ma RKDBI^LM:	Well, is it or is it not a fact you catch,
as a rule, the body of fish that are swimming near tbe surface?
HE. B REMY :	Hear	the	surface.
an CM MR/MY BM; JFIILM:	Is it po sible that other times
fish may come in which run deep and be taken by trap which you wouldn't get?
MM* MbKBY:	There	are	times	in	the beginning of the season
when fchofish is not quite fully matured?
8MCMMTARY EEMF1KLD:	Well, isn't it a fact thst the
trap season might antedate the pmrse net season a few days?
MB. EHiBHY:	Yes.
8MCMM wrky KEDFIELX:	So t feat it might be true there was
1 3 J-a run of fish t be traps would get, a nd would be conserved by tee suggestion of Hr. McCord, which wouldn't come within your vision at- all?
MB. B3BBY:	Probably	that ia true,
beg: KTaBY	BBRTOIO:	I	thank you, Mr. Berry.
1 would like to ask Mr* lie Cord a quest ion.
STASKlfiOT BY MB. a. 3. BcQOHD GO^Iimp.
SaGa^RRnY	I	would like to ask you,	Mr.	MoOord,
what	the objection would	be,	if any, to the use by your	clients
of	the devices	called for	by	the Federal law ana in	use	in
Alaska?
MR. Ho GOBI):	1	don't	think	it makes very much difference
except the expense. So far as the one thing Alaska--------------1
think tt.e law of this state, l believe it is the law, I know it v,rs introduced 3own in Olympia and was passed, allowing f traaman -o use either the Alaska plan of closing or the other. Is U:at not the law, Mr. Darwin?
KB.	BABWIH:	Eow?
HR.	R cCOR D:	Kit her	one	can	be used	on tbe south?
MR.	DAEUIlf:	Ifo, it	is	just	the one	provision.
ME.	McCQRB:	1 know it	was	introduced, en3. 11	might not
have been massed, 2sa& possibly not. I haven't looked it up for
several years. But, as a matter of fact, I don't think itmakes very much difference whioh you do. If you are going to have the aprons down you can't get- any fist into the pot, the be?- rt. How, that is self-evident. If yousars go into violate the law, somebody is going to do it, they can do it with one devise just as ireli as another. If you have the alaskan device of raising a section on either side of the heart, or by floating back, as they do with the T-shaped, you can leave it under the water, and if there is nobody w: tching pou you can violate the law there.
SiiOSSIABY BEDFLHiltB:	But	isn't it a fact,, if ■ , aoOord #
that the Al: ska device operates in plain sight?
ME. MeCOED:	Ho.
SEOr.STAHX H.SDFIEID; And that the other device may be concealed beneath the water?
MB. IRcCOHB:	f	he	way	%	hey are iterated in Alaska is,
the seatio , as 1 understand it# is just laid overt floated over by means of piles, and it is a 7~shaped place, as l understand it, and the fish run open and above and through that from the ’V,! -	£	he	hole,	35	feet,	is	not	closed, as 1
under and the metbod.°operation----------not open, 3 mean.
CHIKF JU3TICS HAaaB:	Mr.	McCord,	you	have a different
provision on • he Columbia River from what you have heref
1.3. MoCOBD:	am not familiar with that.
ChIRa’ JU-■ IC".	ASJSB:	Let me read this. I am reading from
their fish code, one of the laws of 1917, Section 65 provides for the trap, also of the apron, you see. - hen it has this ad a ition:nThat in addition to the foiegoing requirements ei-. oh pound net or fish trap in the Columbia liver district shall be equipped witb a V-shaped opening ia t as lead of such trap or pound net; nest to the entrance to the heart and immecliately adjacent to the apron, of at least 10 feet in width at the top and extending below the surface at; least four feet below low water, which T-shaped opening shall be open during the full period of each closed ocason.M
They have a different law for the Columbia district; than what there is in this district we are iscussing.
. ,B. McOOMD:	I	don’t know of any particular reason
why It should not be done, except that we know it is just as effectiv as the other. The opportunity for violating the lew may be greater in one instance than in t he other.
But if tbe apron is closed it stands to reason that the fish can’t get in. Mow, if men are dishonest because they have an opportunity to steal that might be different, might be willing o piece them so they couldn't, but if a man is more dishonest because be has an opportunity to take my monep than & fellow wlio doe -?;Mt, that is no -rgument ag&ins the bank cashier being dishone it.
Oa.Tr? JUST I Or. r.P% M-:	Some	men are dishonest because
soae tena tat ions ere put bo closely within heir reach.
Car. >ou tell ae .eny re; son why there should be a different law on he Columbia Biver from whrt there is in the district the' re are discus- ing?
MR. acOORD:	Fo	more	r	ason	why ----
er^: A
a?, ai
atCEIB? JUSTICE HA3EH:	Why	there	should	be	an add it tonal
lav/ in the Columbia district than here?
MB. He CORD:	I don't know any reason in the world
why both of these laws, either one, should not be used on the Sound, except this, that the Legislature of the state of pashintern, that bar the power to make the law$, saw fit to rule otherwise. You may have one law in Oregon and one in Washington. You ask me why there should be e difference. That difference isn't large, but I know of no aarticular reason except the minds of one Legislature are different from the Kinds of another.
CHIEF JUSTICE BAZEM:	But	it	is the same legislature*
as I understand it?	f
HE* McCOHB:	I	understand that, but I don't know what
their reasons were on the Columbia Hiver.
OH IK? JUSTICE r AS MIT:	It would look as if there was
so&e reason for it.
ME. McCOHl:	Mr.	Warren is here and could probably
tell you.
R 2 f R-1; I Cl. B.AZBM:	.	p: m have t ho State of Washing-
ton making a provision for the requirement of these traps and a provision in regard to the apron being lowered in order to bring shout the weekly close season, when in the Columbia district it requires you to do not only that, but something more.
MH. Me COMB:	I don't know the reasons that actuated the
---■ o r JL O OLegislature in pa sing that. But when you ask me whet actuated the legislature in ms king different laws, I cannot say. Mow, the reason that may have induced the Legislature to aot some different in the situation, 1 think M3. Lowman9 or some of %te fishermen here who had the pr.atical experience, might s n bwer you.
OHIMF JUSTICE HAMEF:	lou don't know?
HE. MoCOMM:	I don't know.
0EIEF JUSRICS HA2SM!f:	you know any reason why a similar
provision could not he a .-f lier to the Straits, a similar provision to that which is in force in the Columbia district?
R2U McCGBI):	The	only	reason 1 ever heard discussed
not having applied to t he sound was the fact it was more expensive to lift a seat ion of the lead a nd g e fc it out of t he way than it las to lower the apron in front of the trap.
CHIMP JUSTICE EA2MMT:	That same reason would apply to
the Columbia?
LB. MoCOBD:	Yes.
C.	T F Ju ' ' ICR EA2MIT:	And would you, "peaking on behalf
of tr oje you represent, have any objection to having any provision fs this made in regard to the Straits?
ME. Rio COED:	Bot	as	a matter of principle. As to the
effectiveness of the close season 1 would have none so far as I know. If it is more expensive to operate it that way than it is the otherf then that would be the only reason I
-I
JL O O©an suggest in the world, and I don't know that reason exists, as a matter of fact.
SKOMBM AMY KMPflllP:	Ur. Mo Cor a, may I ask you if you,
on behalf of your clients have ever opposed such a bill peni ing?
MM* MeCOMD:	As	a matter of fact, I think t'r-fc four
years ago a provision was introduced in the legislature,
1 think I drew it, making it in the alternative, giving the trspman !n opportunity to use the present system or the Alaskan system at bis election, because in some places on tbe	Sound undoubtedly it could	be used	just as	cheaply	as
the	other. I don't think	that	passed,	dM	it,	Mr.	Darwin?
That isn't in the lew now, is it?
Hit. BABWI3J:	In the	law?
MR. ReCORD:	Let me	have	that book*
S'RTKIRaF? BY MB. ff. 4. LOMiUF OOKTIJKJEI).
3ECMBTAHY	Hr. Lowman, some of the concerns
in ; our Association operate both on Puget dourd and in Alaska, do they not?
KFi. I0MKA5:	Yes	#	sir.	1 wsnt to
SMCMhRAHY B&BP1ML ::	Excuse me. lour answer was yes,
I.r. Lowman?
EH. LCViMATf:	Yes	sir.
_.L O iME. mmm$ Yes, sir.
3i£CRBT MY HEDFIELD:	low	then,	t he	same	concern	must
be,	using in one of its Alaska	traps	the	device	provided	for
by federal law ana using in inset Sound a device with the apron of whioh we have spoken?
HE. IOWMAI:	Yas, sir,
SECaEaAKT HEPFBIJ. IB not that, so?
MB. LOMAS:	That	is	so.
SMQaaR 'ICY HaDFIKLP:	Thai	is	so.	How,	has	it	ever
occurred to any of them that in view of the conservation of thcfr
Alaskan
fish tbey might voluntarily adopt the/devises on both?
IE . LO \Mm :	Yes, sir.
BHGKKTAEY EEDFIBM:	Have	tbey	done	so?
MR. LOWMAH:	Tbey	bave	not.
3ECBKTMEY EBDFIBID:	Why	not?
iiH. LOwMAH:	I will qualify first as a witness* X was
the sub-c mmittee of one from tbe committee of the Washington Legislature to meet with a committee of the Oregon Legislature to bring in a treaty. I was one of the two of the sub-com-mita.ee of tbe fisheries committee of the House of Kepresenta-fcives three years apo that brought in the present Fish Code, and the reason is simyly a physical one, and no other.
The question of tbe alternative method was brought up, and it was deemed by the Fisb Commissioners and those with whom we discussed that it would be Impracticahle to have two ways. be one way, then, to open the V-shapeo opening atthe hearts, was brought up. There are locations on Ruget sound that it would be no re than worth a man's life to under-\;akS^tf?£e$rap in that mouth at	the	time of	the	storms, few,
not many, but some in the Gulf	and	some in	the	Strei ts.
Therefore, tbera would be at that time some treps in the .jouna hat oo uld always have either method, oar both # while there would be others that it would be impossible, it would be sore than any general would do in sending hie men into action to send a man in f- dory up against the weather aide of a trap to open up and pull back ft that place under our present methods of construct ion.
The question of the violation of tho law was considered most fully, and I want to say that we got the help of every man tb-M asked to help us. They didn'tall agree, but the gener 1 consensus of opinion, 75 per cent or more, and we had herrings and everybody was free to come, these gentlemen say they were there, and 75 per cent or more were in favor of this method, orovided it could be made pr cfci-
oal. It was left to the Fish Commissioner to do so, and
t 7
Le made 1 is regulations, lfthich	are	the ones in	force and
effect. I am not prepared to	answer csuch	charges as have
■n made here, be	-	ilh	ub 1	evidence—~
th• t j a the Fish Commissioner.
There is one correction I want to make,, and that is Ii annual cost of fi3h traps. 7 Lose are annual, five totwenty-five thousand dollars means that that is annual cost. There is no salvage about a fish trap. It costs more to recover what is left of a fish trap, and the law of the United States, through tbe war Department # from which we receive a permit, enforces the pulling out of the trap at the enr5 of the season and it may not again be erected until it is watch-manned anR lights maintained. We have no jurisdiction over that. without that license we can't >ut in a trap.
As to the method of closing on tbe Columbia Bivex.
The Columbia Kiver traps, most of them -— I will not say most of them, but many of them -— they take the fish out at low • ide on foot, which constitutes quite a difference between taking out at 65 feet at low tide. Traps in Baker Bay and those districts in the Columbia Kiver. are very, very shallow. Ther are some that are different from that. It is an entirely different institution. It bears the same relation to the traps which we are discussing here today that a baby would bear to a full-grown man, and the handling would be on a par with it as to the labor.
On a strip of territorya taking in a consider ble percentage of the traps with a southeaster in the Gulf of Ceorgia and southwester in the Straits of Juan de puea , I would not sem a man to open a trap under some of the methods teat have been proposed. More than that* the 8 ipreme Court court of the State of fas hingto n hma said, in effect t this,that if a man fell into your trap and you opened the apron on the close season to aet in and get him out you would violate the law and have to pay your fine. I have the decision of one of the judges in this state, which covers about these words:	he says be is very sorry indeed that
under the application of the Supreme Court, be is obliged to assess a fine where he knows there was no guilt. You aee9 we have no elasticity. The mere opening by accident4 a mere opening by the act of God, of the apron to the place where a fish could enter the trap constitutes a violation, and the watchman is equally guilty with the owner of the trap, and the fine ru:s	into	thousands	of dollarst	and the
minimum is $2£0,	the exact	maximum	for	a violation	of the Is.w
by a purse seiner.
SECaER'/KY I.aPFIEXB:	Thank	you very much.
ME. BEI11Y:	Kay	I ask Lr. Lawmen a quest ion?
MB. LQUla'n:	r.	rr;	, if I qb	r you*
KB. BIRKhY:	Isn't	it	a	tnot 9	lr.	Lowman, they have some
traps In Alaska that are exposed to the sea and rough weather?
It. LOVvLLUf:	Just as much as they are on Puget sound.
I spent seven days going	from	Puget sound to Alaska	and
r©turn1ng.	1 never saw a	fish If®p in Alaska in my	life.
I co uld a * t an jwe r y 0 ur que s t ion.
MB. BE Lai :	Probably	you	have not been ---
Lit. aOV»MAn; 1 have	not	been in Alaska except	one	day*ME.	BEKEY:	I have.
HE.	10wMAH:	Well, I	haven't.
MR.	BERRY:	isn't it	a fact, Mr.	lowman, you can arrange
to open your heart 25 feet, as the Alaska regulation is today, fromyour pot, right from your capping, which is all t m way frora fourteen inches to two feat wide, where a man can walk right around as you can on a pier, and you can arrange it to open and olose your opening right from the place they get into the dory?
MB. LOlKAn; My answer to that, Mr. Berry, would be that the vast preponderance of the evidence before the House Committee was no. I have never seen one of them that way my elf.
13. B3HBY:	*	have been a practical trapman myself#
lr. Lowman. 1 could arrange for such a thing.
IRK McGOBI):	There is a difference in the tide, is
there not, Rlr. Berry9 in tbe last years?
KR.BEPJiY:	They	do.
IRE. McOOMD:	7	bey vnrj in Alaska, do they not, on the
four-Biile tide i nn on the eight-mile tide in tbe sound?
MB. BMRltY:	I here is very few places where the trap
is in an ei^hi-iaile tide.
MU. l.cCO BD:	iiome of tbe® is more t ban t ha t a round
there where they fish.
IE. 3E.5RT:	Ho.
1 A O
JL	h wSMCHK; AMY EMDFIMRJ- Mr.EoGort, you had some infonsa-tion you were going to give us.
: H. mcOOBB; I wanted Hr. Darwin to get it,
axARMMEaf BY 1-iU I. E. DABM11,
8!T ARE F l$H C0KMI3 dOIIBB, SEA72II, 1AMS.
MM. MM1W:	Hr.	secretary,	J	would	rather	answer
questions as you gentlemen would propound them. I would Lave been /leased to answer some of the questions that I heard Mr. Sweet, I think, propounding to some of these others.
I	want to :mke just a, little statement.
You sight get an idea from what has been said here that then- wasn't asy such thing as law enforcement in the jtate of cashing ion, nobody was ev r arrested, that- the purse
seiners-----that Ua only violators you found in i he state
of <- p hing - on were t be trapown@r3.
If you would hsve the records, if they were produced before you, of t h; arrest, s and convictions for violations of the fishery laws of the State of Washington you would find this,and I an s e airing now only since 1913, because it waa t on the 16th day of April that .1 became charged with the duty of enforcing - be lav,. In tire two years uicoeeling the 16th day of April, or first day of April, 1918, we mad© more arrests end collected more rnoney in fines in the state of
" 41
jl rx.Washington than rhe arrests we made and fines collect#d in the total of SO years preceding that date. Sow, I had to come to a meeting like this to find out that there are people in the state of hashing ton who don* t t bink the fishery laws of tbe State of Washington are enforced. You won't bear that anywhere else outside of a few purse seiners.
Sow, you will find that the purse seiners in the 3tate of Washington today are taking 65 per cent of the fish that are taken in tbe state, and yet purse seines only operate, you might say, in three or .our district# in the State of hashington.	'bet will give you some idea, Mr. secretary,
and gentlemen of the Commission, to what, an extent the purse seine has become the fish tafter of the State of Washington.
1	am speeding now of &	number of fish.	I	wouldn't	want	to
make that amount of	fish, because you must	remember	that	on
the Columbia Kiver our fish are vary much larger than they are in Ruget Sound,	so	our re ports are	made bo s bow	by
numb re rather than	by	pounds, that is	tbe	reason I	refer
to them as in numbers.
The same record has been kept on arrests as they were made during the firs” wo vests. JL think you gentlemen will concede that p.3 a self-respect ing officer I wouldn't turn
over the enforcement of the fishery laws of this state as against one clacs of fishermen to the other class of fishermen.
The State of Washington is able to enforce its laws, they
have enforced its laws* and the result is that it is easier
to arreot two or three purse seiners :.o every trap that isarrested. That is possible simply because there are more
purse seiners. But you mus t n * t gel. the idea t hoy are all
an^Ls on one side and all devils on the of*her; shat wouldn't
be ft ir. There arc some traps, we find traps violating the
law where we h* ve arrested them for doing of the things
you have heard said here. But because those things are
said don’t mean we don't get the traps. They are done
t he
occasionally, but we get the traps, and ;number of violations have been constantly decreasing, and 1 will ssy there never has been & complaint since 1 have occupied the -ffice of fish Commissioner, I don’t care wbeth r it e-re from the purse seiner or anyone else as against the trap, that that complaint has rot been investigated, and if it wa»s well founded it has been acted upon and the man has been cbarg d with the viols , ion of the law. And so hard r. vewteen enforcing the law against the trap that 1 think the only trap v,e could arrest during the last season was one trap that stayed open for fifRy minutes longer where the poor watchman bad fallen asleep, an- yet re was compelled to pay a fine.
And we find out also the purse seiner is compelled to take c re of himself on :• no'--her score, providing he is. perfectly willing that the trap owner shall be charged a minimum fine of , 250• he very caref illy got the last legislature to change the la* so ihe minimum fine for tbe trap owner is the maximum for the mrse seiner, where up to that time bothof them were the same thing* where the purse seiner gets into t be Legislature in the eleventh hour and gets the word ’’grosr" stricken from trio law, and therefore gets it where we can't fine rim more than $£50, and I was greatly surprised to find that condition existing. 1 didn't lo k it up until aft01 tv roan bad beer, convicted in the courts here and the judge was ready to impose the larger fine, and w© found that thing had disappeared, and inquiry in the Attorney Gener l’s office developed t be faot it wss done. fhe a m endme a t we s d r ?. wn b y t h a t office a■ t h e re q u est of the purse seiners’ organisation in this sis e. So I hey saved it themselves.
How, we get down to the dosing of the trap* It always has been a contention in this state on Puget Bound, ?here is s very valid reason why the Columbia River traps should be closed in a different way from those on Puget sound, for the reason the Columbia Hiver trap is a very small affair as ci apartd with these. They are in a stream and t hey are not effected tidal conditions like those traps of Puget Bound, .hey possibly don't cost one dollar in ten to Puget Sound traps. Rut here is no objection absolutely on my part as ?ish Commissioner of this stave, andl hope you gentlemen may devise some effect method of closing the traps on Ruget cound. I don’t think there is any objection on the part of the large majority of trapowners, but when they couldn’t agree in the 1915 session of the Legislature theyfinally passe il up to the Fish Commissioner to devise a method, end 1 oot s representatIve of the trapowners end 1 got lar. Berry as represent at ive of the purse seiners, and we want out toe. trap Mr, Berry owned himself and there tried to have bin explain to us bow we could erect the very appliances that be propose d, and when it came to explanation he said that be had forgot that it wouldn't work because the	tide	rained or	flowed and he hadn't made	an	allowance
for	that	proposition, and that is the	reason	we	wouldn’t
adopt the plan be proposed. And t he present plan at that time was one that was mutually agreed upon by Mr. Berry end the representatives of the trapowners and myself# and 1 adopted it, ana those two gentlemen were agreed the present plan we were us ing was t ue ibost eff icaoioua that could be adopted under the circumstances.
I	should like very much to answer any questions* lilt. RioOOaD:	What	about	your	signals?
IS*	DABWIN:	That is what I was	trying	to	explain.
UK-	McQOKD:	Well, explain what	it is.
III:. DARWIN:	It is simply a proposition, a rope that
goes to the lot toe of the tr<rp. works in a pulley, so that when the apron is ai the tot tom it has to be pulled clear to the bot orn before this signal rises and shows, and when the signal is lying (bn the trap that shows that the apron is up, and when it is exposed, flying in :be air, it shows it i3 down.
A r-V
i a.'iME-	IRc00MB:	What is tbe signal,	how big a signal?
KE.	1) AER IB:	Oh, it	ir what	they	call	a	a hap 8	on a
towboat; about three or our feet long.
ME. McOOBD:	A flag?
MM. DAEWla :	Hod.
HE.	MeCOED:	A red	flag?
ME.	DAEV,IK:	IVo, it	is whet	they	e&ll	a	shape.	It is •
macle 1 ike t hat ♦ fillust rat i ng }.
DE. SKIIM:	let inquire, Mr. Darwin, whether it
is possible to so treat; this apron oontrivanoe of the trap net that the apron would still be up and the signal be showing?
ME- DiiBwIK:	I think that could be done, Doctor.
ME. BE BEY:	May 1 ask Mr. Darwin a question or two?
>M 0:• IR 1 f' HI EFRDFI a LD:	Y o u ma y.
ME. BHEEY:	Mr. Darwin, did 1 ask yea to say you
agreed on t h? t particular plan that pou adopted?
ME. DAEV* ir:	Xou	cert a inly did. ? he comparison was
made at your ovn fish trap.
IRE. MMBEY:	I think you had pour plan, that is; it
was tbe understanding in the Legislature, and too many different prepositions had been put up to the Committee
and different met hods of closing, and the objection was found by some who were on the Committee and who in fact owned
a lot of traps, that inasmuch as the plans would work it
/P. O
Z a-nwas '.rob'-bly agreed that the apron was the thing, to accept, as you say, but 1 want to say this, shat; as a practical
trapman <tet any men who baa never seen a trap in bis life ------------
the idea Is this, the- when your apron is closed,your signal is up about 16 feet, isn't that right, Mr. Darwin?
KB.	DABWll:	Yea.
IMi.	BaHKY:	Above	the structure, and when	your apron
is up -----no, when your	apron is	up your signal	raises up,
that	is,	when your trap fishes,	and. when Me .opening closes
your signal raises. uhen it is down, when it is not. fishing your signal is down- But 1 wani; to say this, tha t any gentleman uere in this room, whether- be is & practical trapman or not, or whether be ever saw a trapsp&n who can keep that apron up in trap fishing and si ill keep i, he signal up, keep anybody two or three Mies away from coming near that trap, because it baa got the signal up that it is not fishing, and I have seen that Rone on many occasions. And
2	want to say his, that } have proposed to Senator White,
. ash in; ton, Chairman of the F sheries Commit .ee, two cS.if-fereni methods oi closing ibe I rap, but it wasn't accepted, as I unders’and there were two or three men on that committee tbs. represented canneries or traps, and I was in the minority ana bad to abide by that committee. In 19OS tbey had another Diet hod of raising the pot out of the water which permitted tbe fish to swim under I he po^-, but the stream was too strong & nd they do ne away ?, i t h t be t. I hen I subm i 11 e d a no t be r proposition which ] assured them would w >rk successfully ,and 1 g >uld wake it work, with two different standards connected to the apron, lashed to the bottom, that when ttiis apron is up these standards are up 30 or 40 feet ahcve the capping so anybody a mile or two away could tell nether they were fishing or not. But; they told me the wind who too strong and i would break these straps.
And that is why Mr. Darwin had it fixed later so it is just like raising - flag on your trap. It is up to you whether you need to Reep he flag, up or down.
DB.	3MIRa:	Mr. Darwin, what	is	tba fact as to she
number of traps	tbs: were licensed	to	fish in Puget sound
waters last year?
1-Mi. D/RfflF:	The number of traps that were licensed to
fish tear no relation to the number of traps t hr- i are actually fished. I h?.nded you those figures, — what was it, 464R Something like that. I furnished those to the Com it tee. I can't carry them in ay mind.
DB•	a MIR a:	/ppr ox!natalyf
MB. DAKWIT:	bout	40,,	1	think,	and	64,
DB.	iMMITM:	Licenses issued.	How many traps actually
fished under those licenses?
MM. DaiM.. IT:	1 think, to my recollection, about 158.
yaC.JRV^BY HaMPIM.l' :	Of	course,	gentlemen,	the
only interest the Commission hr-a 5n t, Pis particular matter is S3 to whether r more effective means of conservation oft he sockeys salaon is available. It does not re>% within the province of the Commission, and. is not within it* desire in any form, to even discuss the question of the propriety, tbe law, or its scope, or its enforcement, unless so fnr as it may be a contribution to t fee quant ion of con-serving tbe food supply. I t ia i nk tbe Go mm i s s ion has ce a rd suffic ient----
MB* !RcC0EI):	Will	you let me ask one or two questions?
o&OEMfABY EaDKTR-Li):	All	right,	Mr. McCord.
MR. McCOKD:	You	heard the statement made t bis morning
about fish being found in the traps immediately after the close season, did you not?
MM. DARWin:	Yes.
113. MeGOHD:	I will ask you if it is not —» not a
common, tut very frequently that men will leave their trap* leave fish in	t-i.e tx-	p at the beginning,	of	the close season
end take them	out at	the clo e of	it?
La. DAIM7IM:	Be	very curious indeed if there were
not fish in tie trap v,hen fishing is resumed on Sunday morning, because those	traps are lifted on	a device	at	the favorable
stages of the	tides,	and if '.her.?	is ar:	early	morning tide,
the earlier in the morning the better, so that there would
be s fish------that trap would catch fish in tbs proper open
season pr ior to-------between t he Mae it is lifted in the
morning and the Si me it is closed at four o’clock in tbeafternoon; there certainly would be some fish in there, and they would be fish that are legally caught.
MB. MeCOEB:	Mien	it would not follow, Sr. Darwin,
would it, conclusively, that the law bad been violated, or the close season laws had been violated, simply because the fish happened to be found in there at the eni of the close season?
IE.	I ABM IK:	Ko,	it. wouldn't follow conclusively,
but it wouldn't follow at all.
M8& McCOMM:	How,	have you had any violation of the
law with boats or purse seines?
HR.	DAEvVlN:	X stated just now-------
ME.	Ug00MI):	1 mean around Boundary	Bay?
HE. BABWII:	Boundary	Bay?	I think: possibly the
greatest	number of	arrests that were	made	last	season	was of
Canadian	fishermen	who"interested in	coming over	Into	our
waters and violating our laws/
IfE • Ho COM3:	How	many	did you arrest there at one time?
MR* LAKVtxH:	1 think the greatest number st any one time
was possibly fourteen.
ME- Me CO: M:	How	many	all together?
ME. DAMh IB:	Qb#	we couldn't arrest near all the men
that were fishing there. For instance, at one time we went in t o where there were 60 boats; possibly meant 120 men.
ME- FOU ITD:	Teat	is	purse nets?MH. D&MliIK:	Ho, these areggill nets.
h.R. McCQKB:	Mr. parwir:, you have been fish Commissioner
now for nearly five years?
•MB. PABVlH:	Pearly	five years.
:X . McOQKD:	Muring	the t i®o you bave been Commissioner
would you say it was a matter of common notoriety and common knowledge that fishing laws of this state were openly and flagrantly violated?
13. DABfclK:	Without attempting to be egotistical in
the waiter 1 think in the state of Washington five years ago there ms gr at agitation agsinfefc the fishing interests because there bed been violation of the laws. 1 think that agitation has entirely subsided, because j believe the people of the State of Washington today feel the fishing laws are being enforced, and I never heard of them not being enforced outside of these meetings where the airse seiners and t rapmen sre together.
MR. MoOOMD:	Have any	of these aurse seine	men ev€r
reporte i to you any violation of la?*?
MOFU laABWIIT:	Yes sir,	and we have acted on	them*
ME. MoCOKD:	That you	have not acted on?
RMM DAHV. ITT:	Ho sir.,	I have refused, end	very probably
stated, to deputize purae seiners. I am responsible for every ftot of every person I deputize.
MR. McCO D:	v.hat money have you at your dispocal as? I sh O o m i e 3 i or © r t o e r.f or a e t be 1 awf
Riw BASS IT:	Well,	it isn't a ~~~
MK. ; cGOR.D:	1	don't rsear t foe a rouat. You have
suff i o 1 ent ?
ME * DAIlill!1:	1	t bink, — well, as I say, the violations
are so -few until the high cost of fish in the last year asused the little men to fish along the streams, the violations were very few, snd I think we had enough money during this biennial for at least the last year.
KB. McGOHp:	You t b ink. 11 i s eff eot ivenow, the close
sea on is effective, is effectively observed or enforced
MR. PArwin;	1	don't want you to understand that there
4
are not occasionally violations of the fishing laws of ihe state.
KB- R-cOOHD:	But I mean, is there a substantial com-
pliance by the fishermen generally with the close season laws?
aK• DAHWIH:	There certa inly is.
: 1\. ?KT H i OH :	IS ay I ask p o u a quo s t ion, Mr. par w 1 n?
8E0KKTABY bEDFIKU :	Go	ahesd.
MK. aTHIGH:	&r. Darwin,	I understand you to	say that
at	certain ■ imra,	and in a good many	case§, it was	almost
impossible to lift these traps	owing,	to tides?
MB. DAH'Cir:	Ho, 1 di drift	* ouch	on that phase	of it.
Do not so understand me.
Sfi!C;\i£TAjuY El'DFIBLl):	1	did.	not	so	understand you.And I am bound to say that 1 think tbe time of the Cor -mission cannot be much longer given to the single question of the enforcement of the law. That isn't within our provinoe, not that we shouldn't be glad to hear fully everything thrt everybody has to suggest, but we have no right whatever to intrude into that province that which doesn't belong to us, but to you as citizens of tbe state of yVasr ington. That is not our duty. We can only consider this question, 93 I tried to make clear, from the point of view there is something to be done in connec-t ion with it which will add directly to the conserve.tion of fish life. If there can be some such arrangement shown which would be a part of the means of preserving the supply of sockeye salmon we would be very glad indeed to have it.
MR. Mo COED:	1	want	to say, Mr. secretary, that 1
find that the tabulation of these figures is a greater job than we anticipated, the daily catch of fish, and I am afraid we are not going to be able to get it before morning.
. hOMFM MIRY RtDPIKLI); perfectly satisfactory to haye it tomorrow morning.
HR• LOWMAN:	have got si* people working on it,
Mr. Secret* ry.
IF.. BAB00CM:	r. 3ectary, 1 would like to ask
Hr. Berry from his 20 years’ experience how long, in his
155judgment, it takes tbe fish to go from tbe salmon banks to Point Roberts, if be can give you any information as to
that point? lie said be ha ' been fishing there for 2q
years end suggested they make a practice of following g
fish, if he knows the length of time It takes tbe fish to
go frois the salmon banks?
SB OR iSTAEY K&DFIEJlD:	I would be very glad to bear
Mr. Berry tell us.
UK. BaRMIY:	In	my	judgment	it takes about two days,
although it again depends considerably on the tides and tbe weather. But about two days would be about, in my judgment, would be ao near correct as 1 could give it; that is, to Point Heberts.
S^GBJRTARY PJRDFJMLD:	Sow, 1 will ask you how much
longer does it t--ke for them to go to the Fraser River?
MB. BEHEY:	Cell, it would probably take —* they
might play at tbe mouth of the river another day, and then they would probably cover half of the river in another day, and probably te three days before they got up to the Costminster bridge.
3ECRLTAHY MRRfMMKLR):	3o from the beginning to the
end bow much?
p.MBHY:	1 should think from the salmon banks
where the first sockeyes are caught in any Quantity to the up; er cjnd of the Fraser Kivsr. I should say that it vonldn't take any less than six to seven days; but that
i56depends again, as 1 said before, that the first part of the season, when the fish are not fully matured a: they are in the last part of the season, he will t Jfce considerably longer for the first, fish to get there than they will after, 8fj9 15th to the 20th of August. Fish will cover a considerable length of space in one day when they are ripe
sni ready to spawn ‘and heading for the spawning grounds. Pish will play and drift back and forth with the tides* and 1 don't think there is any man can exactly say just scout the correct time it* takes from the salmon banks, but 1 should judge about seven days to get up to the frager giver.
3E GEMT ■ BY BE JFIELp:	One	more question. Have you
bad any personal experience in watching the amount of fish after they leave the ®ulf and go into the mouth of the river?
11K. BERKY:	I have fished there.
oMCRMRRHY BKBPIELD:	How long, in your opinion,
does it take the fish lg go from the entrance, the sain channel, to Westminster bridge?
Ill. B;.MMY:	Oh,	if	Mguriag	right	from	the mouth of
the river?
aaC niRABY HEl Fla LD:	The	mouth of the river.
MM. MaKHY:	Ob, I should thin between two and three
days.
MH. MoCOMD:	fiow	long,	Fa.	Berry,	do	they hesitate
w~
O	iaround tbe ©out l of the Fraser befoie they go up?
MM. BMRKY:	That again depends, Mr. McCord, or,
tbe weather and the tide.	One day, and times probably
a oouple of days. Between the boundary line and the mouth of tbe Fraser River I h&ve seen them play around there for a couple of days.
IRR.	McCQFRD:	Hot longer then	that?
MR.	BERRY:	Well,,I wouldn't	say bo. About	two
days. Tbe only way we can tell what ground, Qx what distance this fish covers is by following tbe schools, If there is s good run of fish come into tbe salmon banks end the seiners make good catches, &nd probably two days we	cat oh	those fish there, ne know	that probably	£4 or
56	hours	later we	are going to get	those fish in	Rosario
Straits, and a day later at point Roberts, and that is wberew8an tell just about the distance these fish can cover much better t bah the traps.
SECRiM’ BY RKDF1ELD:	Mr.	MoCord,	am	1 correct #
is t uis a correct summary of the general statement you have ;nade, that it was agreed upon, in general0 that a restriction to-tbe extent of providing that half, or substantially half, of the fish should be allowed to proceed to the spawning grounds, that that much at least could be s* id to have been agreed upon?
MR. acCOMD:	Uobody	opposed	that,	-
vMiCL 1M aRY BEDFIELD:	I	a©	going	on	in a minute, whaI want to know is, if i can, tbe points of agreement separate . Aa I oorreot in understanding you that* was generally agreed upon?
ME. . oCOHB:	pell,	1	think the Committee thought
that somewhere, approximately 50 per sent of the fish went up by tbe first of August, and the first of August was the day on which they thought the dividing line should be.
SMCKMTABY H3BF1BLD:	I	am ooming to this fterwards,
I am trying to get quantity now.
MM,. Me COED:	That is quantity and date intermingled
toget her.
SMCRrM MY M - DM ] MID:	Bun there was a general agreement
that about half the fish should be allowed to go through?
MB. Me COBD:	About	half	the fish.
3 a Cl KR AMY BKBBM'ML j:	And do 1 understand that it mas
generally agreed by all concerned that on or about the first day of August substantially half the fish would be passed t hrough?
. MoCOi.D:	Yes.
3d CHE. MY REDiflJSLD:	What reason we s given, if any,
for the disagreement which appears, if I understand you correctly, as being only a matter of five days? 1 think if the Commission understands you oleerly everyprinciple was vgreed upon, snd tbe question of practice was agreed upon, at least for its total duration. The sole difference
159appears to farve been that you urged a period of from the 2oth of July to the first of August and the following period of from the 25th of July to the 5th of August, and the other side couldn’t agree with you upon that progressive character, but wanted it to stay fixed as of the 20th to the 1st?
ME* MgCOMD:	That	was	right.
SMCMST 'EY 18DFIELD:	low, what was the basis of that?
Let me give you the reason for the question- The reason for the question is, it appears to be conceded* I think, by everybody her . who has spoken on both sides of the boundary, that there is a definite period of time required for Ire fish to pa s from the straits to the river, which has been put at a minimum of not less than, 1 think, three days, snd from that to five or six. How, what was the reason for the difference in view?
MK. RlcCGKD:	Well,	there	were	two	reasons assigned.
The first res-son was that they had on the Fraser Hiver their best fishing between the first of August and the 5th of
August, ; nd that if they went-------the commencement of their
fishing season was postponed until the 5th of August it would prevent them from catching enough fish to justify the o, erati o& of their canneries. That was the one reason.
That is the first proposition, as I understood it. Then the second ground for opposing it was, as I construe it, an admission on the part of the British Columbia fisherymen
60that they would be getting the lest of tbe deal in that way,
f-na they said that tbey hatched t be fisb upon the Fraser Biver, took care of t hem, t urns d them out, t bey were hatched
end grown 'until tney went to sea in tbe waters of British Columbia, that they felt they were entitled to a preference in tbe fisb over tbe prrt of those that had been taker-on Puget 3ound. And they felt there ought to be a more equitable division of fisb between the two countries*
Basina that,, as nearly as I could gather it # upon a sort of a proprietary interest in the fish, because of their nativity in British G o 1 umb i a.
OE1KF JUalOK Bi^EI:	Very much like the American
contention in regard to the seals,
MB. Me00HD:	Exactly,	1	suggested at the time that
British Columbia, was taking the very identical position that was taken by the United States in tbe seal fisheries, but, if I remember correctly, the decision was we were compelled to pay the damages tha: we hai Inc rred because that was not upheld, tut -------
ORIRy JU M 10 , EA2MM:	But	which prevailed in tbe
future?
MT\. MoOO'.D:	It	prevailed	in	the future in part.
GhaaF JUSTICE RAZjSN:	yes.
113 • KcCOED :	But the same principle upon which the
United states pays its claims in the fisheries treaty is tbe same t ha. t is fought bp British Columbia now. I was pressedborne with that question by the British Columbia people in
8 very generous sort of a way. They tried to ma.'k.e me
admit that 1 thought they were justified in having scree priority. I evaded the quest ion as long as possible,
as finally stated, as a reprtsentative of the fishing interests over here, I could not agree to itf as an American citizen 1 never would agree to it; that our creator who made the Fraser ?: iver and made Puget Sound, said, made the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, is tbe happy bejaae of these fish, wfcer these fish were grown, is a natural condition, and t ha* we located where we might be able to cat oh some of these fish* we didn’t think it ought tohe taken away from us by any contention on the r&ri of British Columbia ■: hey wereent it led to priority simply by reason of the fact they were hatched up there. They said, "y.e pay for the hatcheries". by answer to that then, and now, is the Sts e of Washington, f no I hrve no doubt the United States f but l anow that the State of Washington has always stood ready and willing to contribute to the maintenance ox the hatcheries on the Fraser Biver. And why shouldn't they?
It is just bay should insist in it by contributing .aoney for the reason we ere in partnership on this business, and we ought to assist them, and I don't think there ought to be any foolish pride, or international pride, that >revents the acceptance of money t Lacontributes to the welfare of both; and I hope that they will permit us to aid in the
■? r q
JR G ^<3 6 v 31 o pise n t of ho so hat cher ies. After all, pertlemen, when ; ou	pet through with this	whole controversy you	come
bfok to	it, we are never going	to have any	fish unless	we
find some efficiency in tbe hatcheries, that is, unless the history of the past is false.
CHIMP JUSriCK HASiiTf:	I-o	you say that we will have
no fisheries unless the government of Canada maintains fishery hatcheries on ihe ?ra er Kiver, that is the Solution of the whole question?
MR.	RioCOKI):	I think tbe	solution of	the whole
quest ion	ir the maintenance of	batoberies.
'MRIMF JUV ICK HAS MT:	,»ell now, those hatcheries 
just le* ae ta e up your argument.
EH. roCOMD: Yes.
CblaF JU 5rRICK MA2EM:	Those	hatcheries	have	to	be
maintained in Canadian territory and maintained on the eraser Eiver?
IMB. MoOOaD:	Yes.
ChlMF -JU I CM MAzen;	How, don't you think that gives
tbe government of Canada some rights in regard to the matter
3	us I as you had rights, iR was decided in the treaty between Japan and the United states and Canada, wi thi regard to the seals? If the people of Japan and tbe people of Canada had wanted they could have destroyed tbose seals^ they ?^ould have been of no value. They absolutely agreed to abandon pelagic sealing on condition that- the United states recognize they
163had a prior right, because those sesls were born up in their islands, on condition tbe United states paid each of them 15 per cent of tbe set 1 kills t,bat were made up there on the pribilof islands. That treaty was made between tbe baited 3tst.es and Canada, where do you see t he c5 ifference in the present situation? Don* t you think tbe fact t he Be fish have their origin in the Canadian wetiers, end have t i e ir rotectiom in t mi river — if t be Canadian Covernment doesn’t give tmm protection they will be destroyed in the future years — don't you think that gives some bearing to it, j ist es it did to you with regard to tbe seals?
LIB. McCQMB:	As	1	remember,	a	good	many	hundred
thousand dollars whs paid prior to that time*
LIR. F0UN1:	It	was	for	chasing	vessels	outside	of
territorial waters.
MK. Mo C OKI):	By	reason	of	the	fact	the	Unternati	onal
OoiDOiission did not recognize the principle that you are now contend ing for cr used the United States to pay damages for the catching of those s sis, oonfisoating the vessels, which we claimed ere engaged in fishing for the seals in violation of tbe American law, because we claimed ,he proprietary interest in it.
CHIR.F JUSRICK -aMM.M- :	Yes, but you didn’t have tbe
proprietary inters et, and v,e haven’t he proprietary interest in the salmon, but there j-re other considerations.KJt. oCOBD:	You	raise	the	fish	and	hatch them;
we want to help you.; you won't allow us; but we want them to go to sea, ana you would like * o have the fish that are in tbe waters of • uget Sound	get back	to	you. They
v.ould go t o sea; you don’t know where.	You	don’t know
whether they would stay on uget	Sound	or	go	to sea,
where they go to. nobody krows	t h-1,	as	I understand it.
You don't know whether they st&\ in t he bet:, ora of -uget Sound or go out- to sea. we think	they	go	to	sea,	but
we don't ow bov. fer, nd whether	they	go	outride	of
territorial waters, where they go to. They come back; they grow 90 per cent after they leave your distriot where you raised them, wcere you turn them out; somebody else raises i hem/
S'ECHJSTARY B1DFIKLB:	Isn’t	this	a	side	remark
after all?
MB* McCOBD:	Possibly.
SEC El BY H3BFJEL1):	It	is	interesting,	but not
essential,to our point of view, yes5 to	find	some	wfy of
oomson agreement whereby we can ----------------
MM. MoOOMD*	You ask R me the question as to what they
contended. i was gl-d to r~ spend. I don’t think it is materiel e it her.
SECmm .‘MY BKDFIKLD:	I	did.	How,	the	one practical
suggestion before us# if I are correctly informed, the one thing that has been contributed thus far, is the questionof an agreement reached In principle, but; with a disagreement on a single point of co reo:nes , that there shall
be such a close- season as would f ibstactially provide that one-hali of the fish be permitted to get to the spawning
grounds. Do you think that any rinoiple haa been resched?
HIM Mo CO MB:	I	think	so,
3ECaSa*4BY HIRBFIEI3:	And the reason 1 as "feed you the
question about what their contention was, was simply that toe CoffiiDia ior i/Mght be informed upon it in order that when their own views are expressed we shall see how mat,era harmonize. How, are there any ot t.er points that you or any o,her gentleman pre snt here desire to raise in connection with the conserve tfon of the fish in the Fraser River?
be Commission will be very glad indeed to have f.ny other suggestions, remember ing, of course, that the figures that you e*' k of, Mr. Lowman, are to be presented wrtenever they are given to you.
Are there any other points in that connection that either Mr. ho Cord or anybody else here wishes to sup Rest respecting the conservation of the fish in the eraser River?
Perhaps ] may go on just this much. It seems to be also agreed by everybody that here is a diminishing business, a bu ineso in which the capital and labor engaged is threatened wit h s^loss Of its principal industry and employment unless something promptly is done. Me dom'fe likeoust osiers in this c.untry of that sort of thing, gentlemen. a sturgeon recently sold in Chesapeake Bay, one fish, for £245. -bat is because he has been -----------
T
MR. MoCOjO) :	It	was	a lig are.
3,.CMaRAHY HKDF1EIRM:	That is because be baa been
solicited out of existence so that tbe raw is worth §5 a pound. Another was caught# a saalier one, cold for $125,
I think. "bore is one of our valuable fishes destroyed.
I'ben the w®r brok. out we ^ere in the hopes of bringing some from Houmania witb the hopes of ?etting it re-estatlished.
“here are other elements in our food sup ly which we heve seen go entirely wroted and destroyed. *?ow, we are waiting for ^ lib tie wore oommonsense on the subject now. vie; all rare8 thfct here is a business which is going# and we want, if we can, t o stop it before it is gone. It is a business in the proceeds of which we are absolutely mutually interested. If the fish go the c&nners and fish men of both countries suffer ^ Iike , have to turn to scree other kind of s job. How, we want to save it if we c:n» The gentlemen presenting tbe cr.se agree npon a close season which will let as 1 f of the fish go to the spawning grounds, and the only difference that I gather is the 'iffercnce that one side would like to have it at a time and the otherwould like to have it at another time, but the two times overlap by 50 rer cent. It doesn’t seem that ought to keep xaxy intelligent men very far apart when they agree in principle and agree
b ione-helf in practice. ITow, the Commission would like to hear more from somebody else on the same subject.
□RARMM._rr BY IRB* iveb teue,
7214 30th VflBFUE, I*. \U , SEATTLE, VaUH. (Fiaherman)
IB. THUK:	I	would	like	to	recommend	that	tbe apron
of this trap that is used, or lias been used, supposed to htve bean used in 1.be last few years, be done away with and something else be us d in its place so fish can get by tbe traps in the	olose season, or	the	weekly close season,
1	mean, "bat is	t be recommendation I	would lilre to give.
And I bad an amendment at the last session of the State Legislature, I brought up a bill and tried to get it introduced in :be last Legislature, and I had it signed by two other members, and I asked Mr. Donovan in his office if i.e would recommend it, as I understood be was, him and two others, 1 guess it was ------- well, I have forgot,
they were on the Fishery Committee, and 1 thought if be would recommend it, and he strictly refused, because he s	id "if we ; o I	am butting in on	the	other ..ellow, " and
1	have this till	that I bed drawn	up to he introduced as an
amendment, and J. would like to deliver it to you gentlemen if you want to see it. You oan use it, look it over and
168use it for your own judgment.
ME- FOUai):	It is another	method of	opening tbe traps?
MB. THUS:	Yes.
3MGHla AHI B^jFlBLa:	This	was	the bill	you intended	to
introduce in the Legislature of	the	State	of	Washington?
MK. THUE:	A trap to hold	the	fish?
3aOKET AEY KiDFIKLD:	It	must	be clearly understood that
the Commission cannot receive this in any sense which implies upon its part any relation whatever, favorable or otherwise, to proposed legislation in this st* te, not at all.
MR THUS:	Ho.
SaOFKRAKY KMDFIKLD:	But	as	a suggestion merely as to
a method of conservation.
MB* TK0&:	Yes. He was a member of the Fishery Com-
mission, 1 understood, and I thought be wr?s the yroper Kan to pc to, and be said I was just tutting in on tbe other fellow.
SaORaTABY EKDF1LLI):	We	will	receive this, Mr. 7hue#
as an expression of jour personal views on this subject.
LH* THUiS:	Yes,	sir.
M<0. Lr ArY ME lib'IE LI); and be very glad indeed to^Bo, with tiat understanding only clearly understood by you,
Mr. Darwin, is it not so?
EH. LAKulK:	I	am	not	a	memb zx of the Legislature.
SbG.j^/'BY REDFIi5LT>:	But 1 want you to understand I
am not deMrin^ in Ray wry 10 :ntrude in legislative matters,,This is received merely as an expression of JRr. Thue's views.
(paper referred to received and filed as an exhib it. }
MB. LOYMaAM:	For information of the Cnamissior-, I
tLink probsbly you know it, the Governor, the Treasurer of the	otate and	tbe	Fish Commissioner, constitute tbe Fish
Gooil	is si on of	tbe	3ts e9	and the Governor is the Chairman
thereof.	Kr.	Darwin's modesty is easily explained.
SECKxCrAKY BEDFIFID:	The Commission would like to
re;eat its request now that anybody present who has any thought to contribute any matter on wh%t I ssid or in any	way upon	the	subject	of the conservation of tbe sockeye	salmon in	the	Fraser	Biver, express his views with
entire frankness.	shall	be	glad	to	hear	from anybody.
MB* BJCBBY:	Kr. oecietrry, I would like to ask
either Mr. Lowman or Kar. McCord, do they base that tbe 50 per cent of the sockeye salmon enters the spawning grounds just between the 2Cfch day of July and 1st of August?
If that is what their former charges was up to that time, does tbet include tbe whole month of July, or fromthe time they first stert fishing sockeyes?
MM, HEB CRARRMRMMT BY ME* V. A. LGMaMT
The theory uoon which the osse was presented to ourbrother countrymen of the other aide was that at least one-half of the soekeyes that entered uget sound should be permitted to ro unhindered to the spawning g. ounos of the Fraser Elver. v*e considered that there had been, by reason of statistics taken at the various canneries, a sufficient number of fish ioing through between the £0th and the 31st, inclusive, of July, added to any uncaught portion, to make more than 50 per cent. There was some divergence of opinion between the Americans and the Canadians as Ro how many of these fish should he considered as breed ing stock and how much butchering stock. That was the only difference there was, a ad that was a question of but a few days.
The other theory upon which we took so short a time was thet the eatraord inpry a mount of fish that run between those two dates, as demonstrated by tbe records, would constitute the least : ossicle charge against the overcharge of the fishing industry- Our men are hired by the season and the year; we pay there whether we fish or don’t fish, and on a 10 days of that kind the natural charge against the operation would be much more limited than if we bad 8 20 or 30 day season at some other stage.
Another thing was that it hcs been taught us by scientists, Hr. Berr\ , that he fish that come fisst are the ones that go the farthest; and it had been demonstrated to us beyond question that the farther spawninggrounds of the Fraser were not always populated by fish.
It was deemed wise on our part, then, that the young, the new, the strong fish be ing the ones that would go the farthest were the ones that should be permitted to go.
That is t,he one an: only reason for making the proposal that we there made.
IE. BKR1Y:	IRr* Lowman, * don't tnink you under-
stand my quest-ion quite correctly, or else you are not answering it as T asked. Do you base 60 per cent of the eockeye salmon within the ten- flays, or is it up to August 1st; ioes that include from the time you began fishing for a our sockeye salmon, or does it include only those two days which you submit to the Commission here as the f u t u re o 1 o se s © a s on?
UK-	MOV,'MAM:	The records show that over 5o per cent
lr-Bt year of the	entire sockeye	salmon pack of Puget sound,
and our records show Garners that don't om a trap, don't own any fish, that over 50 per cent of them were caught and packed between the 20I h day of July and the 1st day of August, records from more than one 9 more than two, more than a half dozen, more than s dozen canners.
JjjJt/ PRPM.Y: That would be all right in your part icular
case.
MM.	LQWKAU:	Ho, this is a	dozen canners, Mr. Berry,
IRK.	BEERY:	All right.	But would you be willing to
3ubmit to this, that if the records of the canners who buy
---
X I fa*e?ch an! every fish from the fishermen don't show that 50 per cent of tbe fish re cpusht by these fishermen, including traps and all, if you please, are not 50 per cent, would you be willing to close tbe full month of July in order to permit 50 per cent of the fish to enter t be spawn i na. gr ound s ?
MR. LOfllAn;	Is	that	a quest ion?
13 • BMEMY:	Tbe-	is p	question.
MB. LRVMI: n;	1 would say no, for the reason that it
would destroy something like 40 per cent of the soring salmon run, with which we are not dealing here today.
The heaviest part of the spring salmon run is about the 4th to the '10th and 15th of July. It then commences to go down. The spring salmon run is a run not under discussion her:- today, because this is tbe conservation of sockeyes on the Fraser Hiver, ard that only.	we	can
discuss tbe other among ourselves at any	time.
MK. BMBKY:	Isn’t it	a fact Mr.	Lowman,	that some
sockeyes begin to	run	from	the 1st of	July	on,	and I have
seen some sockeyes run about the 25th of	June?
MB. LOWMAN:	The sockeyes commence	running	on	the
21st to the 24th, 25th and £6tb of April-----------I am not making any mistake in the month-----------------------ar.d conti nue to run, in
the latest case thrt i hevo evor seen on uget sound, on the 7th day of October.
II	. BaMKY:	Mr.	Lowman,	r	think you have reference
JL & *3prot bly to tbe Baker's Make sockeye as Ison, commonly called blue backs?
MB. LOMU AIT:	1	have.
: 3. B a MM Y :	But	a reg xi 1 a r r un o f P r a e r Elver sockeye
salmon, I 6 n' t tbink you have seen tbem running, only a stray fish be re end there?
UK* LOWMAN:	Thai is true, 8. stray fieb.
J . , Re 1 under8 .and it, Mr. Berry, that Mr. Logman is about to furnish i he Commission with definite figures shoeing the take, isn't that your inten-t j on?
IP: . LOmAJi; It is being made up.
3MCMM1 BY IlMJFIHla:	And	I think this quest toning
back and fortb is very profitless. 1 don't aare whether some sockeye fish commence to ran the 1st of July, or 15th of July, or 1st of June, or 15th of Ray; that isn't what we are here to discus?, and it is entirely immaterial, but. if there are figures to be presented to us which are now in preparation, as you know, which definitely show that the catches are,in a materially large uentity* between certain dates, I don*t care wh*> t 4a,es, then we will consider thone facts when they come. They an? coming. When they come you will have
an opportunity to criticize them if you wish. jn the meantime I beg of you not to take our time with discussion of the tnings concerning which we are to have facts brought
- A • Abefore us. For the time being it is waste of time, is it not, in face of tbe fact you are going to have facts
brought before you?
ME-« BESET:	I	want to show bis interest.
SLCKMTABY 5 RBflMI ;:	You	will have opportunity to show
that; you will not be restricted at all*
ChlaF JQoTlCR HAXil'T:	Mr.	secretary, Hr. Berry made
a statement earlier in the day which 1 think is worthy of consideration. He stated that trie salmon that ran up the river up to the 1st of August were nesrly all females; that the males oame later on, anei, if I understand, tbe catching of Salmon after the lot of August of males would be cat off to such an extent that there wouldn't be enough left to impregnate the ovary of the females. 1 wonder if tbe scientific gentlemen here can give us any information on that, sutject?
MB. BABCOCK:	Not speaking as a scientific mac,
but we will give ^oa the records as they are printed in which we stio& .you tbe sex, the length, tbe weight, and tbe age of the fish that, run n the Fraser Hiver for the last five days# by deys, and which you will find, in almost every case 9 that t ey are fifty-fifty. They are not only in the Fraser, but in almost every other river. It all will be submitted to you.
MH. MeCORD:	Hr. Secretary, there is another ourse
seiner her 3 who says Mr. Berry ioos not represent his inter sts#and he takes s different view. I would like to have you call on him.
2a0:X''AEY HZ23? IEL33:	T he Commission want g to hear
from anybody who has views to express upon the subject of tbe conference along tbe line of tfes conservation of fisb in the Fraser Liver. Very candidly, gentlemen, we are not interest-d in • be antagonism between the trap fisherymen rnd the purse seine fisherymen. Rbat i& the duty of the State of Washington to deal with that. That is not tbe business of this Conference. &e would have been glad to give a large latitute today because we wanted to see what ve woul.t pet out of the discussion which would be helpful to tbe real work of tbe Commissi on, but we are not here for that purpose, our time Is limited and half of it is nearly gone now and there are still some things to do,
Put if any gentleman here representing the purse seiners, or anybody else, will sake suggestions bearing directly upon how w;e can bestpreserve the soelceye salmon £n the Fraser River is very welcome.
STATEMENT BY 30 BERT A. *iKL3h ,
I. ,
BI LLUfOliAli, WASB.
MB. nELSE:	1	hsve	"beer*	in*i	eras ted in the soekeye
fisheries for over 80 years on the JPraser Elver and on
a 4 OPuget Sound combined, and I think myself, watching the action of the weekly close season, and taking into consideration tbe pleas put forth by Mr. McCord hem as to a period of ten or more days9 that; the latter suggestion by Mr. McCord is going to be the most effective for several rea-ons. The weekly close season retards the fish temporarily at a given point, and they go on a little further, and we don’t know that t he fishn.fchat ft£ are supposed
to go through during that weekly close season will reach the spawning grounds. v»e have very grave doubts about it,
because they are nearly all caught above the Westminster
bridge immediately after the close season. %e know this
also, that if ve have bioek of time9 ten days or more*
that every traf will be out of commission. And I would
strongly recommend, as a means of conservation, that it
be done by a period of time as will be determined by the
figures of the fish catch that you gentlemen will got given
you ty the Puget Jound roo ie and tbe Fraser V;5ver eople,
end entirely elMnate the weekly close season.
SECRETRRY BEDFIELD:	Thank you, rr. Welsh. Is there
anybody else, gentlemen?
dT .ITMKiiUT BY P. Z. rtATHLI,
5217 Mu3sell /< ve. , Seattle, sash, /a purse seiner).
Mit. A' :M:Y:	I	want	to say a few words. 1 wish to say
-
JL i 4I have been engaged in the purse seining for a good many years, I fc ve lived on the Sound and in Seattle since fc his was e territory, and I have watched tbe sockeyes and their run for many years, end I bsve myself found that their runs are falling off every year. When this fish country was first established* when we become a sc-ate and the fish bate cries ws s to help nrppagate and enhance tbe run of fish, it helped, I noticed It helped, that: then the increase in the number oi seines and increase in the number of traps seemed to not keep even with zka increase in the number of fish.
3c the weekly close reason was enacted in our R’ish Code, but to me that* don't prove effective. I don't believe in tbe weekly close reason. It is more of a humbug than anything else to rsy notion. Because there is this advantage to some and snot her advantage to another fellow. 30, therefore* a solid close period, a progressive period, in harmony with British Columbia would be the most effective, and I Bpe&M that no selfish interest should prevail with anyone.
If we	to have an increased run of fish, of sockeyes,
■ Ra successful one to ay .ira And I wish te see the Commission get that right, that such a period would be enacted with the joint United states Government • rM British Columbia Government.
C.vJ. MM-vKY RI'il^’IMLj:	Mhank	you,	Mr.	Matney.	Is	there
anybody else?FURTHMH T^ATEmm BY MB. I. 3. MoOOHD:
BMC; ETAMi HMBF IjsLB:	Mr-	McCord,	t	here	is	one	question
I want to ask pu before it is overlooked. Do you think it would be feasible, if a common understanding can be rerched, to r^ve it operate by mutual a on ent ?
RIB. Me COED:	My	idea	of	that	would be to have the
agreement put in tbe form of a treaty, or contract, that
it be passed by British }olumbis, or by Canada-------------I don't
know tbeir formalities there, but on this side of tbe line let it be adopted - by tbe Legislature of th* State of Washington, and by Canada, if it will, and then approved by Cong re-: ?, then you rave got a, compact between!, be two.
SSCKfiTABY MMDFIMLM:	Yes. That, then, if we may
assume it to be completed, is, of course, final?
HR. MoCOMP:	Yes.
SftCMSTAKY RKBF1ELB:	But you are aware, of course,
of tLe 1 engtb of time requjred for that purpose‘? It migbt take-----
MB* McCOBI?:	1	don't	think	so.	our	legislature	as-	eis
in January next.
wpM MMABY HMM^IIRLI :	1*bat, of course, would roean that
tbe nest searon would be -------
MM. McCORMO:	Mo,	ba passed tefore the next season. I
think it can be passed within the early part of January .-rd faioo ed by this------if this Comm is ?ion, trii- Jr. ernat ional
179^imojission, adopt tbe views that we have been discussing today, this solid close season on the 50 per cent basis,
I believe the legislature of the estate of Washington would approve that readily next January and get it in plenty of time for next year.
BaCai-M/AEY EKl^IifiMJ):	But	would your people for whouQ
you spe*- k act under that in the season to open next summer?
ME. Me CO M3:	R hat is a mat * er that I oan* t speak for,
but T b^ve no doubt that they will* Yes, 1 think they will. But I don't believe, Mr. Secretary, that vould be effective. I might agree for tbe people t ha t , part iouli- rly rear—ent, but 1 woul dn*f undertake to do it, but I think the recommend^w. ion would hears ily cause them to do it, but 11, ere n:- i p i: t be soije that you wouldn't pet, ’The re is always the fellow, in the settlement of a bankruptcy case, that holds out, you know, and that alwe ye wants a little bit the best of it, and 1 don't; know whether we could get all of the in.er- -ts to agree or not. Some of them would.
SR.O; PMAKY K'.D7JKT*M:	Of course, the only way in wuich
the police power of t-ne state could be brought %c bear vnuld be to ve legal enactment.
MK. MoCOaD :	Yes.
SLC.-alMVKY •.aD^lMLD:	But t her is such a thing as a
mutual agreement which works out, and j call attention tothe fact that it is only by reason of such, through the courtesy of the Canadian authorities for ZQ years oast, f.o carry on our Atlantic seacoast fisheries at all. nothing has existed b tween toe unit-ad states ana Canada as regards the use of ports on our seaboard but a gentleman's agreement, in substance, for £0 years gone by.
IB • Me MR KP:	fe might do this. 1 didn’t follow you
exactly. If the Legislature of the state adopts this theory they could immediately pass a law providing for the enforcement of he gentleman's agreement, that could be possible; but 1 first thought you meant the agreement among themselves, to do thi? by agreement. All the packer-- would undoubtedly agree to it, th?t is the people who run the traps, and I think most of the purse seiners. But if all the purse seiners now engaged in the business, and all the trap men, agree, end the fish were running along the Sound and there v- s no law to prohibit them, there would be some more felloes that would develop as fisherman, sc you can't very well try to do that unless you have the 1aw behind you.
Rhere is one other question that x forgot, if you will permit me. in the discussion that me had in Vancouver it was my impre 3ion, and 1 think the undernt arc* Ing of pract ioe lly all of the American peo le, that fishing above the Mew Westminster bridge was to be prohibited; and 1 don't knov. -- that is the impre:-a ion I gained, md that hasn't been
181neat ioned oday, but I ?- sume tbp - wac ® p-.rt of this understand inge I would like to be enlightened on that subject if 1 can.
CMia? JUariCS EASESs tell, I don't know, I am not a party t oany understanding, and I might a a well my right here 1 don’t feel bound by any understanding, because I understa nd no understanding was come 104 end, in any case# if	there happened	to	be any understanding it mould	have to
be	submitted to this	Commission for consideration.	Is
tbat your view, !pr. Secretary?
dMCRMM KY HMDFHLI):	That	is my view, too.
MB. Rc D.RM:	I	say that is exceed ingly important,
tLe closing above	tbe Mew Westminster bridge.
la • M OWE 4 If:	That was our proposition, this close
season, tr » w s our proposition, »e made that so far from the strains at such a time, from the aalmon bn -Ms to 1 he boundary lineato such a time, from tbe boundary line to Westminster bridge, t-bove the Westminster bridge closed. Tbat is tbe roposal we made.
RMCM-M *B¥ B.-DFIML	It	was a proposal?
MM. M 7,1 IA "r:	It was r propoeal, thft t' s all.
CM I .F JUo : I OK HAZr,:r:	One which, of coar Re, ha i eve ry
cons i cl ern I i on a t. our hand s.
Ill	• MoCOEM :	Just as Mr. Rowman said, bra. t w>. nmy
t r.R. Ing when a- : sde ' hi :	a. But when you
82tali’ about law enforcement and gentleman's agreement,
Mr. secretary, and charges that have been made for tbe violation of law over on this side, not charges* but suggestions, I want to ask if in this arrangement it could be possible to take away from British Columbia tbe power to change this law isxs by an Order in council, heretofore we have bad the close season limit on tbe fisbing season, and on a number of occasions 1 have been advised that by an Order in Council that law oan be abrogated, or eiten.ed, or suspended by tbe British Columbia people.
1 am just, asking for inforaati on.
CHI/.i? JUSTICE '/iAZ&T:	It	isn't	British	Columbia.
Ly friend is mistaken. It is not tbe people of British Columbia at all. I be regal tionswith regard to fishery matters
are made by the Federal ;overnmentIn Can da. They differ in that respect from the United States, where er-ch state has control of its fisheries and m&kea its on regulations.
Canada the ulatio	de	by	the feie	rritiea.
R Ley have power and, of course, the right to change those regulations ^ to them may seem fit. But if an agreement is entered into of the nature of this 3ort by which there is going to be give and take on both sides, then I think there should be a distinct understanding that agreement will exist for a period years, say 10 or 15 or 2q years,
and that then it cannot be abrogated -------- that it oan be
abrogated at the end of tast period by either side by
giving e year's notice, or something of that sort*
a H3ME. IvloGORD:	1	will	have	to	plead my ignorance on
that.
CHI.- ? JUSTICE hAZST- :	Yes, * tinders and that,
of course.
UK. moCOED:	I vented to know if they had that right.
CHIT,? JUSTICE EASiSN:	Yes. it should be a treaty
that would be binding for a certain period of time, and at tbe and of that time either side could abrogate it by giving a year's notice;. But in order to do that, of course we have got to approach this from the standpoint of mutual desire to protect the fisheries on this coast, and there has got to be give and take both ways. The way I feel about this, I don't think it makes any difference what agreement there s entered into, there will be interests in British Columbia that will probably suffer and be interests on this side that will probably suffer, but w® nave to consider, as Secret ly Hedfiel said at tbe beginning this morning, that we can't consider local sectional issues, we have to consider what is fort be benefit of tbe work just as we bad to do on thi Atlantic, and that has to be done for the good of the whole community if we are going to protect these fish ins interests,
STATE!: RaT BY Lit. IB A I). LUUDY,
1
MR. LUNDY:	Mr. Secretary, I would like to ask you aquestion. Do I und e r a t and, in a a k i ng Rir. Me C o rd a q ue 31 i 0 n in regard to conserve0 ion, would you like to have that take effect this yetr. If possible?
3K0i;S?ABY I&BPIELT):	Tbe sooner tbe batter.
MR. LUTTDT:	Wouldn't the president, under bis Pro-
clamation, have a right t and tbe good Commissioner, to order or conserve the food supply by taking care of that regardless of state laws?
SKCBMABY BLDFIELD:	The	question	Is	new	to	me,
Kr* Lundy. 3 can't answer it.
IL B* LUNMY:	It occurred to me it might possibly
be worth mentioning.
SCO.afAKY B3SDFIELD:	Xt might be possible under the
war power. Tbe president has very broad authority* and since it is b fact the t salmon are very largely used for the food of the Army there is perhaps a broader power in the president's bands tnan is commonly realized. But the subject is one t o whid 1 h-ven't given any thought, but I will look into it very carefully, and a r, very thankful to you for making the suggestion. It is a very thoughtful suggestion indedd. I
Lope there are other gentlemen will say what is in their mlhds in a clear way.
HJRThEH C7AR CLiMHT BY MIC !M ICpOORD
IRR. SCMaT:	Hr.	McCord,	if	it	was	deemed	advisable	in
order to obtain mutuality b tween the two countries 10 do what
185was suggested by Chief Justice iZaz-en. enter into a treaty, put this in the form of a treaty between the two governments, and toe idea that has teen advanced by you, or that was favored generally by the people of this state, were mbodied in the treaty, you don’t consider there would be any technical objection because it was put in that particular form, do you, rather than in a state 1 aw?
KB. MeCOMB:	»hy, I have & very grave Roubt so to
the power of Congresst or the Senate, or Executive Department, to make a treaty that will deprive the state of the management of its ini ernat iona1 affairs.
ME. 3WEET:	If it accomplished what the state wanted
to accomplish in a more mutual way ---
TIE- McQOKD:	If the state acquiesced in it then the
state is bound and would not raise the question, nd that is the very o int I have been trying to suggest, r;o on .and make your trea y but have the legislature of the state endorse that treaty end lecome a party to it, as it weref so she couldn't raise any onest ion atout it # she woived that right# made it in the nature of contract such as Oregon^) just as a number of states have one with each ot her.	this
igreement is adopted ty the Legislature of British Columbia we will say, or by the Dominion parliament and by the Legislature o Washington and approved by CongressB and the Canadian Government and the Legislature of Washington approvesit here, than nobody can ev r raise the cum at ion. 1 #ant to avoid tbe raining of the technical question, if possible.
R'R, SWSMT:	1	understand from what reu said this morning---------------------
'M. McCo: J:	1 think it co id be done that w ay #iilout
question.
SEGHETARY REDFIELD:	If the Legislature of British
Celumbi ..nd state el Washington -d adopt it, it would have at least this advantage, would it not, that it would be settled and be law?
MB. McCOXO:	Yes.
SECRETARY RSDMlIuLD:	While at the same time it would
flexible and open to change if experience should show it was desirable so to do?
"Ml. McOOMiD:	Yes.
Ollim .JUSTICE HAZEFT:	It isn't, Mr. Secretary,	a	matter
of	legislature	in	British Columbia under our	system.	We
could	do it by	an	Order of Council.
MR. WcCC	D:	it would be the Dominion	of Canada	on	the
one 3i R and the legislature on the other.
SEC DfAHY RED' M MD:	The Dominion of Canada could
doit at any i"e by an Order of Council.
TMR. SWR7MT:	Yes,	but British Columbia could make the
law and neither side--------
CHI RTS* JU :T1CE KA zm:	That	gives	it	permanency.
vlj.
. McCORD:	That is what 1 want bo sc. done. Thenve have four ^e-.r.; to test out the experiment and see what /ill /ork out of it.
fURMMMR STATSMWnf BY RME MOTT. 3XCKETABT HZS&'UZJ).
MRC aRMAHY KED'-'IHLD:	1	might	say, in further response
to ./Mat r. Lundy suggested a moment ago, that 1 think it is ?ithin th power of the President—- 1 don't apeak with authority, as 1 aw not a lawyer, and, as I say, the subject
is new----1 think it is within the power of the President, if
it becomes evident that the salmon food supply is requisite for the food of the a .my and navy, to commandeer all plants operating for the production of salmon food, hoth traps canneries, andppsrate	them on behalf of	the United States
fo 1 Mhe supply of the	army.	That has	been done.	1 am	not
propared to say that it has been done in the case of food supply, but it has been done in the case of uniform supply matters of that kind.	.	,	i	,	.
for consideration. But ahether it may become necessary, in the event of common agreement being impossible, to recommend to uhe President that the conservation of the army food supply mig t require the temporary control of the entire in-try, or of seme portion of that industry, 1 do not know.
1 think that fact is an extreme course 'tfhich would be undesirable to contemplate uniear	here seemed	to prove no	other	way
m	nt vy	cons eat pretty r;oon, by	i	1
x88moant, .'here I said to you, Mr, McCord,	a	few moments
ago, that if your Legislature doesn't meet until January a© ouMio to accomplish something, be understood we agree; aa ought to accompli ih something if you operate this summer, evc,n if it be by no other r.e vns than by mutual consent. Because, is this not the fact, that your interest is seriously threatened, and that you can't afford to go ana" the capital is invested and at stake, and that ordinary co m n sense would say this an	oner and done at once.
Let me point out Re you what another state has done in a matter of far less grave inportaoce. It has twice uur:-rncned, ithas tarice passed in extra cession, twice, 1 think,, /ithin a year, in the state of Texas, Dr, Smith?
DR. 3M1TH:	Yes	sir.
:	rsitting	the	operation	of
fioh hatcheries -Rhieh it had theretofore, by lack of law, prohibit ad, and that in a case where it »ms not deemed or con idered at all as important as this.
Fov/, if a tate like Terns continued to operate, had the legislature enact laws at special sessions, enact them t tvo special sessions in one year, how much more important is it to a state like Washington v/here not only your food oupply, he food supply of the United States Army, and,to a considerable degree, the British Amy, and a gr at business vit illy affecting thi;? important city is at stake, to take it vcr r seriously, to put aside every poo ible antagonism andevery possible norml and natural pride of opinion and get some' him done just as quick as -/e can. ’That seems to be the vie /point, and, as 1 take it, as we around this table get it, the lines of agreement are very broad and very strong, and the points of disagreement, as they coxae herer are very a and very simple. It appears to be, so far as it is brought before us here at least, it appears to be confined to a period of five days in time, or to a pm :.iblo piaaM.ion,: ./hich is not yet clear before us, as to whether fishing shall be continued Rbove Westminster Bridge or not,
Wov/, so far as the public statements here show, those are th iw@ points of difference that remain, that's
all----'.hr	two kinds	of close season	and fishing above	the
bridge.	As far as	lies before us,	then, all that stands
between /Mat 1 think you believe to be a definite effort to t husiness aiah millions invested is that. if that	is	all, that	ought not to be	difficult.
CH1KF JUMalCE EAalMT:	We have had no statements here,,
Mr. Secretary, from any §n who have given a study to this question f ’on a scientific standpoint as to how long it would take for the replenishing of the Fraser Hiver, bringing it
8 fonaer state, if trio plan that is suggested by Mr* McCc nhould • e carried into effect. I think some consideration ought Ro be given to that, and v/e ought to co	r,
rhile it /ould be injurious to the cannery interests and toother interests on both sides of the border, as to whether or not it /ould not be better to take the bull by the horns at once and nay there shall be an absolutely prohibited period or fish inf, fo ’ Renumber of wears that may be necessary to bring the fishing back to its previous condition, and that while this /ill be absolute prohibition for a time, I knww there rill be a great cry on both sides of the boundary line about it, and 1 think m should consider whether it would be /iser or not, that it aould restore the river to its previous conuition in ;i va uch shorter time, and while for a ti it would be hard on the different interests, /.diether it wouldn't be better for them than to go under the present system, because under the present system we have no idea how long it ./ould take to r store the river again to what it was in 1913 and '14 and -4long those years. Ho thing, has been a id along that line here at all today, Ur. Secretary. We have considered no thing except the one proposition that has a meed by Mr. McCord, with the idea of having a fixed closed season on the theory that fifty per cent of tha salmon by th t me ns /ould be permitted to ascend the river. Hoth-inp has boon said from the other standpoint. 1 wonder if there are gentlemen here ah- have studiedthese respective questions?	1	want	to get information on it. 1 am not
advocating anytR ing one way or the other.
M .LOT?“RT:	Our	association and our committee had a
he- ring at Raich Dr. Gilbert-----Dr. Gilbert is considered agreat ^ lahciaty on this coast, and especially an the	ye
salmon of the Fraser River. Mr. Gilbert made a statement f hi oh was taken dean, and which ve are acre than ailling to funish you. But he desired to make an authorised ;taiement, ahioh statement he made, and it is paintaR, Big a , and dated, in /hich ho makes the staiejaent covering the very .•ues ions tM -;t roe are .aikinp , and, Mr. Sacratary, if you desire to have a copy *?e would he only too glad to furnish you -?ith all the copies at our disposal.
CM 11TF JU RRRICS KAS^T:	1 thank you very	muck.	1	would
like to have a copy. 1 wonder if it is possible for us to get M>r. Gilbert to appear before the Commission? He apparently has made \ great study of this. It might be very interesting and very valuable.
SECK jTRRRY REl^lMID:	Is he in	town?
Ml. McCo il):	Ee is In Stanford	University*	Dr.	Gil-
bert , !r. Justice Hagen, came up to our committee and gave hie viev/s on the rhola subject of the Mraoer River.
CHIB? JUSTICE mzm:	mien was	that?
MH. UcCO R>:	In	the	last	month. After lie left for
Califo.-nia he reduced his statement to a statement ahich he signer and sent up. But /e have here among the records of your committee a stenographic report of hi. statement as he gave it to the committee covering the	ion* 1 a . R.
quite understand yon • suggestion, that it had not baen touchedupon any other theory. 1 thought 1 stated this morning that Dr. Gilbert reccrriended the clo inp for all four years.
CHIEF JUSTICE Kkzmi:	1 think you did, yes.
MR. 'cOC/O:	And that our aheory ir&s not to follow
th . t out Ro it 3 conclusion, but td adopt one-half, let one** half of the fish go by, at least accept one-half of his recom mondation. It aould take a little longer time, double the Ri::io, if you will, and no t destroy the industry at the same ii a, but let the two .vork together, attempt to built up the hatcheries, build up the fisheries and maintain the in-duct y it th-'- .. ime time	on a	right	scale, for	the reason,
as 1 stated, I thought,	this	morning, that it	is	not sure
vie1* lea there ?ill be too many fish or too little fish, or •.vhether they /ill increase or not without the aid of hatcheries; you can't tell.
CHI' "P JUSTICE HAZRMT:	It aould take four years, 1
presume, of the cycle to determine?
. '*cC0M3:	Yes.	It	t Jccd	four ye .ro	to	be better.
D:-. Gilbert says in hi:;	report one	year .vould	be	to advantage
to y e j r s rc u 1 d b e r o r e.
CHIaTP JURT1CB KAZm:	The prohibition for one year?
■:1. ^cCOIO:	Yes. That,as a matter of fact, its
pointed out in his oral statement, that each year of the cycle stands alone. If you close one year at the end of f.ov * v" 'B you will knoa whether you have got any more fishor not, 30 if there has been any increase you now what the attribute it to. If you stop two years of the four and fish the other t ro you would still prove the correctness of Dr. Gilbert' theory to demonstrate their efficiency; it vould seen so.
01111? JLMTICE HAZIW:	That	would	go	cm to be reasonable,
1	think.
MR* McOOMD:	Yes	,	that	would	seem a reasonable conclu-
sion to draw.
MR. SWEZT:	Is	that	business	large	enough	during	the
so-called off years,, the light years, so it would be very much of i hardship if there is an absolute close season?
MK. McCORD:	Yes,	Borne	ten	years ago, in 19&6, some
of the ca-nerynen on the Sound, one of them, was very urgent to have h season alternate. That bill was introduced in the Legislature and was	aittee of theLegisla-
turc t -wing to pet thea to pass it, and such an overwhelming dissent was never known before for the reason that it -.aula throw out of employment twenty-five to thirty thousand men and /omen who were dependent for their daily needs upon this industry, md the Legislature of the state I do not think /culd ever consent to it if you tried 11 . It gras oe-, £ . , . -ne,- > of ihe recommendation of Dr. Gilbert, but if we can’t do that 1st us do the best we can and make a compromise of this rf take Dr* Gilbert's st&temei I	r,	...	a.try it out, try it out by not cutting our throats, hut let-tin the animal live.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZEN: , Mr. mcCord, this cannery work only lasts t?/o or three months in the year on this particular f ish?
MR. MCCORD:	Ye y, hut you commence your preparations
a while before that, driving you." traps, buying your supplies a . doing all sorts of th ngs.
CHIEF JUSTI E HAZEN: Yes, but it only means a few weeks employment?
MR. McCO D:	Some of the employes run for the year,
others for six month?, hut the amount cat work connected with a cannery is not at all commensurate aith the actual run of the fish.
CHI'T JUSTICE HAZEIT:	What class	of labor have you	in
the canneries? Do the	Indians work	in	it much now?
MR. McCORD:	Wot very nucli.
wry JU r: ICS HAZOT:	Japanese	and	Chinese?
a:	li,	EjiM Chinese have been pretty weH
thinned out, you 'enow.	rroi/f there	is	mostly American
lahor.	Some of the	Indians over	at	the fulalup Indian
va t ion mrk at the cannery o .
:	;	the	north	country	there	are
a re t any Indians /orking, and Chinse and Japanese.
• ♦	’:	1	,	r. R	1 ry,in your statement as to the war power- of the 1?r esident and the pos ibility of putting this into affect at o$a&.	1
donft believe /e could yet— 1 know the Governor of the State ;cniid not call a session of the Legislature for this pur ose*
He has hi an besought to eal it for other purposes that were very important and he has declined to do so, J don't apprehend he could ha inciecedto call a special session of the Legislature, for the reason that the expense of the legislative rwajwion would he more than the value of the salmon that vculd he p iohed this year probably.
Am . ic-.-r thing is this:	far as the war measure is
concerned, the fi,>h that passed up to the spawnlrifi grounds thio year ,/ill not he available for a war product for four ye art-: hence. I qui'ce agree xhat the President has absolute power to LiOiae any plant and comnandeew them and take them over, 1 don't believe there is any Question about that, either a lumber mill, saw mill or cannery, md he has got a riyht to run it, and 1 presume he would have the right to closeit down; but he would certainly be stretching the authority, I think, by executive order to say he would commandeer the plants in order to put up something that was necessary for a food product and then close it down.
. S aT rj :	He co^lld do it to butcher but not to bleed.
Ti. McCOMD:	Yes*
CHl?y JU if ICE r.AZEJT; Do you think that it the present i	-	sulittion	in the country,dier. aaraa: are so high and when labor is so scares , that- any man who is /illing to work can got work and have remunerative wages, it won id he a great hardship to close down the industry for a year or t-/o in order to enable the fish to go up to the river without hurting them at all?
' R. ycCC:0:	P- Trenaily 1 think that every man in
this a tat can get employment srithomt working in ,the fishery. t I I	':
MR. McCOFO:	But, a a mattor f fact, the Legislature
of :h ta to of '’/ashington must consent to this agreement is the ay 1 vie ? it if want to fee or- the safe side, 1 don't b-iiov®, from y experience vith them ton years ago, thirteen -Cj that it is possible to overcome the idea of depriving Miese people of their right to make a living, because
,
his hiph price of labor is yoing down, and people want this & occupation. X	ill Of the arguments ,.
gentlemen, and 1 want o tell you you c- uldn11 make any heada-ay----:.h hill	.-as over rhelmingly lost.
CKXR’F	JbMTlCS	EA2OT:	That is ton years ago?
MR. VcCCM):	Yes.
CHI'?	JUTflCE	HAfiElT:	The situation today	is	more
critic I.	You had	a failure last year, you had	a	failure
on the run of Vr	a	w%.	Thare is no chance of there being
.i hi £ run a in until 1921.	191?	being	a	failure	f	1921
m y he 1 ilure. The situation is more critical in thenecessity of doing something,, and the necessity of protecting this fishery is greater than it was thirteen years ago, and migh that not have an effect upon the Legislature?
’aa. McCORO:	1	don’t	think	so, Mr. Justice. I --/ill
agree with you that the failure of 191? was due to the gr at sli.o on the Traser River-, but some do not.
CHIEF JUSTICE KAZm:	To what do they attribute it?
'•H. McCOIO:	They	s	y	there	is no proof the fish run
in iou*~year cycles, and may run in eight years, and you ?ill find it astonishinr how aany people there are engaged in this business, and have been all their lives, and they don't believe in this theory that the fish are going to run, and those are. the people that control the Legislature. 1 don’t h> liav ’, gentlemen, you will ever get that sort of a thing through*
Ciir 1? JUSTICE HAZEH:	We have be-n compelled in Canada
to prohibit for a period of four years the catching of shad in the TJ y of "Shindy and the waters contiguous to the Bay of Pundy. For that four years time not a shad shall be ..sold or cavpht f -cv those a.tvrs. tffe found it impossible to replenish th shad by tho fish hatcheries, because the shad is not as easily handled or produced by artificial means as the sal won, and so *ve were just face to face with the question, rill we let his industry he destroyed or dll re stop it?
And 'R sre ac kich about it, of course, there was opposition to it, hut v/e hope	•	•,	when	our	ye	.ra	is	up,	will
198produce again. And we thought this would be the more fit-tirw: time to do it, lien there is such a fitting time lor labor, /hen any wan, if he isn't fishing, can find something else.
:j; The Legislature of the state was asked to do j ust v/hat win said there, but I don't kno •/, unless they have cli.ing d their mind. But I tried my best tp persuade some of the committee do m there it was a good thing, and the committee agreed nth me but the Legislature did not.
MB. LGWMAK:	Hr. Jugtice, 1 was on the other side of
that question ./ith r. McCord at that time. We had had a 1 uluro of the humpback salmon in 19&3*	19^5*	folio	/ing
hir 1agio!alive session, we had another failure. In 1907 we had one of the bingest runs ever known in history. In 1909 e had a very large ran of sc eke ye, although it -.ms predicted the thing was over and past. Xn 1913 we had a
rs standing up before us,
of
in vis r of	the cal imity	-'hieh my f riend &r*	McCo.rd Howled	so
Ion ly and	loquac ia a si y	and	loudly be fere the	members of the
Log is I. ure f re can’t, help being ruffled ./hen sre hear any of these argvmonts. But on the other hand, to close the cannon es during :,h« middle	of	the season, you	c uld not get	two
ere rs, one	c run up to	the	closing season,	then to throw	them
out t'oa x nonth or a wonth and a half and get another crew to continue the inaustry from that time on. It would not be a cl< so for sockeyes, it /ouad he a full and complete close.CHi: T TU fSlCS HA2CTT:	Yes,	1 know that.
SnCIaTf APY	1b there anybody else present
who wishes to address the Commission on the subject of the conservation?	Fr* Pahcock?
rTA'jmmiT BY m. 1. P. BABCOCK, A ‘.flal’AMT VISR COrUXihllO"TER, VICTORIA, B. 0.
MB. BABOO CIC:	I	didn’t	come	over	to	Seattle for the
parpo <e of saying anything, “before this Commission, 1 came as an observer.
1 understood that the Seattle meeting of your Ooim&is-sio i j i: :i ntortain the statements made by the representatives of the -.tats of Washington fishery interests, that they -/ere to make a statement representing their side and their views to the situation. 1 have listened to the discussion up to a nhort time ago with the idea that you were allowing the puree net men and the trap men of the state of Washington to
a,
nd the people of British Columbia who are interested in this subject did not unde ‘stand, that you /ere going, to do any more than hear their arguments in favor of their contentions, ana the fc the arguments /hich the interests in British Columbia had to present rould in time be presented when you went .1 Rbini< if they had heard Secretary liedfield*s state1 ent, if they had known what etatament would have been7
inade, some	of those people might have	been here to	.have
talked the	question over ith you.
It has bean conceded in the arguments that there is a depletion. Depletion has been proved absolutely; there is no question about it. It is conceded because they can't get aay f -’om the facts in the case. As to their remedies, as to !..he solution of the question, you have heard the defense of the position taken by the state of Washington in its conference.-3 r~ -h the interests of British Columbia in trying to rsaoh an	apre	lent between	them	as to	what	they should
t	a t ■ i % ■	,	, p ..	....it.
To my ounce	ion	of the case	they	don * t	take	it up in its
>ro -d sense. They are speaMy solely and absolutely for their c■•••m interests in the case. (They haven't started out at any tine, in riy Judgment, for the consideration of the case from the only point cf view of fhich I consider that you can consider it, and that is for the point cf view of the f ish and the value of the watershed which British Columbia po ses os,	and fhich has produced the	great runs of fish	that
have made if fisheries of the "Fraser	the greatest	salmon
f i fneries in the rorld.
Tho records :ihow that the Fraser River watershed is car-able of producing in one year 2,600,000 cases of so eke ye salmon, and leaving besides an abundance of fish to have 0’ ded the beds in 1913 a3 ’oil, in rny judgment, as they were
2i by •.. •« privil m pj ; p8
d it ions in the watershed or? the Praser River and in the fishing iraters of the district on both sides of the boundary lin.3, hApi-ning with 1901.	1	have	made	an annual report
as to the condition, and these -records will be and are avail-able to you.
The run	of	fish	in the big year	has been	the result
only of th * f	„ct	that	in the previous	big year	that rater-
,hed, from it northmost boundaries to its mouth was crowded ■a th spoiling fish. 1 have used the term Watershed1* not iui\e m its entirety in the big run of 1901, a? ..in in 1/05, and laO ), and 1913 ;in(* 1917* Tho run in 1905 was, according to "ha testimony of everybody that we interviewed on the water fihel of the araser, uhe equal of 1901, My judgment was that ah'-t rpa ninr was greater in 19&? than it was in 1901, from the fact that the	Qneanei	section of the watershed	was cut off
in 1901 by a dan	that	was constructed	at the outlet of the
lawe j on ' Thich no suitable fishway had beon provided; with 'r iwnult chat in 19‘Op the watershed at Q,uesnel was restored
at ran in ip09.
In ipOpj aft a ;• 'fio survey of the beds, 1 expressed the opinion, in print, officially that the beds were 30 much gro.jh'9* seeded, so much better seeded, in I9O9 than, in my judgr-.ent if'.f. <; had been in 1901 and lyOp that 1 believed ’hat h ran of 1913 aouid be greater than the run in 1909*
3' a- v■ ry much greater, it ,-/ae vary nearly a million cases
O	A O
fat£ v,* (Wgreater, if 1 recall it. That was my judgment then.
I	look a at che wacashed in 1513*	1 had the distiac-
ticn of calling the attention of the interested concerns of my own gova nr -ent , the federal government of Canada, that there -./as a situation in the Praser River that if it was not instantly removed endangered for all tine the life of the fish that propagated in the Fraser in the big year. Every effort vas wade by both the Provincial and the Dominion govern nent, /ithout any delay. It was wire, wire; there was unlimited money placed at the hands of the wen ah© had charge of rowoving those ohstructions. We had th- rare good for-iuw; to have in Rritish Columbia at that tirae one of -the gr ect nginears in Canada. ¥e had at that time th . engineers Who wars cor structing the Canadian Northern. Wo had the benefit of all the engineers in the West who were in the employ ef the Canadian Pacific. ¥e had the wany engineers that are resident in P. C., and had conferences not only one day, hut many days, at the great slide in the Kell's Gate Canyon th .t w*o killing the big run on the “Fraser River.
At the end of the season we reported on the matter and expres wd oho opinion that the beds had not been sufficiently seeded to produce a run that was comparable, that was u pproxi-wvaly com )arable -’it), the big runs of 1901, 1905,
I O9 and 1913, -nd you know th result. You know what your pack /as in 1913* It 7/as over 2,600,000 cases. It is less
,-wUih ..n 600,000 cases in 1917, and the fishing was more intense than has over been on the ¥r&ser or ny	- ..... . m r
I can't at this tine go to work and rtftlet you so long a.. sta *s:	t ~s to each one of the ot ver three years of the cycle,.,
but I think ae can show you beyond all question of doubt
%
that Dr. Gilbert has demonstrated that the salmon that ran to t&e Fiw..8er fiver are predominantly four-year old fish. There ac IRree-year old fish, there are five-year old fish in the iari. The-'e has been in ■.. ome of the lean years a greater proportion of five-year fish than in ©tRer lean years. ahose are still questions o be solved. But all the evi-
d nee Rat *e can show you in the lean years   1 have been
termed	Lmec, both	side	arid	on	this,	as
moat pessimistic as to the situation— but 1 ash you, and 1 as ft the w- tie nen on this side of the line, to read again •' 10 veyo -is which 1 printed in 1902 and 3 and from time on as ;o ./hat was going to ha hi: on and what was happening in the Tr* as-a; fiver, aid /hat the result of continuing that practice was. 1 believe I an not taking too much for granted when 1 - --R t a, it was ;he strength of ah se reports that eo vinced ,Lo fisheries inferes os of ritish Columbia ana the author-ities .a Ottawa that the situation was so serious in iy04 nd 190 j that led to the appt in tine nt by the state of fashing-I an'. Ms crnor, by aha Dominion Governor, of a Commission to reat ’i h this matter and see -That could he done.
It a.s the unanimous consensus of opinion of the men whorepresented the state of Washington and who represented British Columbia in 1905 that the? river should he closed in 190a and in 1908 that we might demonstrate to you the effect of that closing upon the spawning beds of the Eraser River. Canada passed the order in Council that closed the river in 1906 and 6.
0G0’d appeared in Olympia, as 1 had the distinction of -.icing at the request of the Senate,, and discussed and urged the passage of such an act. That billpassed the Senate un nirno a;:ly. la was unanimously defeated in the Assembly.
Had that measure gone through we could have demonstrated then ;hat Te can still demonstrate, but in a lesser degree, the effect of a total closure on the Fraser River*
I hope before your sessions are over 1 may have the opportunity of speaking at length, if you please, upon my views as expressing my ora views, not to use them in any other connection. 1 am not hero as a representative of .*ny goveri ient. My commirwa.on to come here was to observe and not to speak.
1	1 speaking of a professional wan, .s a man who has
devoted hi 3 entire professional life since 189O to a study of £• lw-'n cond. ions - n the Pacific Coast. Th.t has boon my ork, And, -.si 31.7, it has boon since 1 yOI confined to a study of tha Praser River.	I beliove that when you have
the ti and the ior:!ination that I can show you the fallacy of 15 argument on this side of the line and the argument on
O	1T1 tZ
^ 0 Othe other side of the line as to the result of putting fifty per cent of a lean year's run on that Fraser liver watersfeed.
1 car, do it briefly now that yen may carry it in mind until
•e.
In 1909 we showed that there .rent into the fishway of the Che snel dam over four millions of adult spawning fish that spawned in that watershed	in one lake in	the Fraser
ver, and *e showed you in 1913* by i coir iti g, a system that ./a-	;.s	careful .y and	as	accurate
as that contacted by f?r. Smith	at Hoods Hi ver	in	Alaska,	we
showeo rouu that the re were slightly over 5?'0,000 fish in the Ch ■ snel Lake watershed in 1913*	There	was then the state-
ment, and ?o hear it still, that there ware too many fish on the spawning	beds	of the	Eraser	River	in an off year. I
have my doubts	abort	...	, I I is the record,
ind -ve can't get away from it, that only when there has been apparentlv an excess of fish in every section of the Eraser watershed have we had th run of a big year. We had in Che snel LaRe in 1913 55*0 ,(>'00 fish. We had in Chasnel Lake, a tributary on the west oide of the river, and the equal in -a : &nt, in ay judgment of Chosnel as a spawning bed, 1 think we had the equal of the numV	spawned in Chesnel.
} let us turn to	' „ Was
your pack of 500,000 because the fishermen didn't catch the fioh or because	they	didn’t	run?	There	i?as more gear in the
■ a We had	over	twenty-i i	ets in the river.:l every gear they could use	over	here*
.a es wait it was in 19&1 or	19&5* a33&	by	the	same
method	and by the same man, and by	my own ohw.	.	,
were	loss than 28,000 of fish went	into	Chesnel	Lake	121	1917*
as against 550,000 in 1913 and over four millions	1	•*
That a watershed that will produce in a given year 2,600,000
•• 1 oave free to ge ao the 1 ds, I for this unfortunate slide, in ray judgment .he equal of the number of fish that spawned there in 1909) or can any business jud{y ant, can any business government say they are content when that watershedproduces 250,000 cases in a year?
And or what theory can you argue that "by letting fifty per cent of the wears that have produced less than 3^?^00 cases are you goinf to, within a measurable time, restore that river to its commercial importance? The question, as 1 conceive it, that the government of the United States and the government of Camla has to face today in this question is the biggest fishery question that can he discussed by two governments. There never was a more valuable watershed than the "Fraser; there never was a more valuable run to any section of fish than ran to the "Praser River in the big years, 1 insist that it is up to you to consider, and it is up to Dr. Gilbert and the en on the Britiish Columbia side of the line who have studied this question,, to give you the lacts, and that it is up to the gentlemen of the United States and of Canada that we shall he content by taking therisk of closing ten days, in which it is admitted that the mo ;t of the catch is mad# in the last fiv of those days.
Are you i oing to he content with a product that nay come from .. uch an ar - ingement as that? Is that adequate protection on	the "Fraser	River? I can't conceive of it.
1 ./on11	take any more of your time now, but	before
your sittings are through if you //ill afford me opportunity 1 will he able to submit figures and make comparisons for off f/ears. But 1 will say no./, if you will read what Dr. Gilbert *ote, and Dr. Gilbert is the scientific assistant of my department, md has been for five years--------- he and Dr. Jordan fere ay mediators in the first place----------and 1 have fol-
lowed their lead in the matter,. Dr. Gilbert * s statement that
is	submitted here an the one that is printed---------	/hen he	made
n't anticipate that it was	to	be pub-
lished, and being a scientific man he wanted to be sure it was absolutely accurate, and the transcript of the testimony given ho him had, in his judgment, so aany inaccuracies thi.t he /as not content with it, but the statement that was made and signed by Dr. Gilbert is the most able and, in my judgment , i 3 abso1utely unanswerable.
SEChaVARY REDVIULD:	Is that the painted statement ;/e
have now?
*R. BAJ3COC17:	1 think so.
: X ,D:	1 aonder if upon our return to
Seattle it would be possible to get Dr. Gilbert before us?R!B. BAT COCK:	1	think so. While 1 don't imagine
Dr. Gilbert ould have anything to say to you that he has not said in that printed statement if it is very carefully considered, and he writes me it embodies the views	,
1 R* a. e no reason to doubt he will he glad to he present.
ij BCR ML:' RY PiEDvlELD:	How .much notice would you like to
have?
"a.i. BABCOCK:	"re	would have to rnke arrangements and
take two or three da vs ■	*	1
like to let Dr. Gilbert knew at feast a ma:	m ms.
R :	It is a	of
of the ;ime. If we telegraph to you, I:r. Babcock,------------
MB* BA?COCK:	1	-/ould ho gjLa& to take care of the
matter.
CHI' TP JUSTICE KAZEtf:	Mr. Babcock, 1 listened to your
statement with a very great deal of interest9) and 1 am very glad that you have said you c/ouid get those reports for us this afternoon. It is very--- have you made any calcuia ~ tion as to how long, if the proposition sugge .	hy
Mr, McCord, that is, the preposi i
cent f the salmon to r o up every 'ear, how many years would it ho before the Fraser River was restored to the condition it was in, say in 1913?
TR . PAPCOCK:	1 don't care to go on record with any
other statement except the one 1 have repeatedly made, that,in ay judgment, it will take a long period of time, including m-aoy cycles,, to reproduce in the 'Fraser Biver watershed the , tiers ./hi eh created the gro	.	-	.	.
R. " f.	11 Ml How, one more question X would
like to a k you. Do 1 correctly gather your view on the matter ^hen 1 state , in your opinion, the groat trouble was c used by that land slide in 1913?
mpl BABCOCK:	In	1913.
CHIR'TF JUSTICE KA7MT:	And that the depletion of the
"Fraser River has not been due to their fishing?
VI. BABOO 1C:	Only in the big year. %iat statement
applies to the off year, There has been excessive fishing in -very loan year since 1 have boon familiar with the Fraser River, and Dr, Gilbert, 1 think, has shown you just .men it began. What 1 had to state in respect to the slide was only th0 de,:r notion of the big year. In my judgment, the fi.Rhing that has been conducted in the big year had not taRren moro fish from the total run to the river than can well be taaen evy ry year when the beds are seeded as they were in 1909. And it ,-as the slide of 1913 that destroyed the big run of 1917 and has placed the big years now in a category a i th th c- 1 e an y ears.
:	Well, what is the reason that
all those years haven't been big years? What is the reason
. |
for a period of three 7oars ;e have had /.hat /ou might cailalean year?
.	:	f	patience	is very great,
and uniass your time is longer than it looks to be from that c-look 1 don't think	you better get	me started	on that	subject
but 1 will be pleased to have that	question put to me	when
you have sufficient tine to let me give you at length my views on that subject.	1 don't agree with Ir* McM	I
don't agreement with the statements made	in	the	estate of
Washington that caused the lean years, when	the	fish had	not
reached he equal of the big years, that it is demonstrated you can't do any aood by letting all. the fish go up the re; that they would, if they had allowed all these years, or century or two, that they would have been, they could have been built up as big as the big years at the time we tackled
•r men considering that, and I was one of the steps that made the study	of	the	"Fraser River
so interesting to me in the first place,
MII'iP JUG TICS	HAZES:	Por a	great many	centuries the
fish must have bean	running up wnd	down there	without	inter-
ference except by the Indians?
I'M. T* AMRO CM:	Me don’t know that is a fact; we don't
kne . rhen the catastrophe tookplace. We have reason to believe that whatever it	it	affected	that	section of the
</.t r :h-:d that was effected by the slide of 1913, that the le n ye rs have he n the product of Harrison and LillooetLakes, and	not contributed	to	greatly by the	spawning above
Hell»b Gate, that the	spawning	above was that	much	greater
than it ;ms bee,iuse it represented the spawning of the district above Heil's Gate. It is a long thing, very many sides to it,
w:	now i '.?enty-three	minutes of
six. The	Commission	will	adjourn to meet at	this	place to-
morrow morning at ten o1clock.Thursday. April 25 3 1918, 10 A.M.
SECRSlAhY Hi: FI' wl ; HLease come to order, -the conference has received, under d te of April 1.2th, a communication addressed to it from Mr. Charles R. Both, to which is attached a statement made by Mr. Roth a statement in support of House Bill So.103 in the louse of Representatives in the state of Washington, and a copy of House fill So.183, hieh will be made a portion of the record of the conference, and will he given consideration by It, (Papers referred, to received and filed as an exhibit,}
The conference proposes to 1 ave tomorrow morning, and stopping 0V‘-r night at Victoria, to proceed directly to Prince Rupert for the purpose of conducting a hearing there, anR from that point proceeding to Ketchikan for the same purpose, and, s bject to any changes that circumstances ?aay call for, we then return to Vancouver for hear nys, and ail then return to Seattle for further hearings. Mr* Me '"herson, of the Alaska Bureau and Chamber of Commerce, will accompany the party.	.Vi 11 you go the
entire round with us, Mr. McPherson,
:SR. v'icPEERSo •: Yes, sir, that is my p 1 easure.
SaCBiMPR.RY RED FIELD; Yes. I have a Ire 5y suggested to Mr. c herson that we hve reserved upon the steamer accommodations for two additional gentlemen, and will he very glad to extent the courtesies of the vessel to any other representatives of this important city that may desire to attend the he rin^s in any or all of the. e places* our thought is to have the fullest
21 3opportunity fcr nxtual interchange of thought in e. eh other's presence just as far as is possible, and we hope it may be your pleasure to arrange for the occupation of the additional space thus ma.e available. 1 understand that one or more gentlemen desire to go to Rrictoria. Is that right?
MR. FOTJRD: Mr* Babcock.
SECRETARY RIDFIBLB: Mr. Babcock, will you go to Victoria with us to-morrow?
MR. BABCOCK: Yes, sir.
SECRETLY REBFIELD: I ask you to be at the Bell street dock: not later then 10 o'clock to-morrow.
■what is your pleasure, gentlemen?
ST A3? 3SM.S8T EY MR M. W ARRIS, Member of the Oregon Fish 3. Game Commission, Portland, Oregon.
1£R. .vARRCII: Mr. Scret&ry and Gentlemen, I must say that I feel a little hesitancy in expressing myself on this matter, particularly as I am not directly associated with the Puget Sound fishing business, and have had an opportunity to study it only from the general interest vfoich I have taken in the propagation and perpetuation of the fishing industry, of the ontire acific.
To me it is very apparent that the sockeye run has been sadly depleted, and thst the industry as a whole is in great need of prompt and possibly radio . 1 attention. It has been drawing on
us for Lome considerable length of time, both from the feet
O	A
that the	Ra ^that the catch has been decreasing in the off years, and also from the reports we have had as to conditions which has existed on the spawning grounds in those years.
But in considering this matter, it seems to me. that it must .iot be co >sidered as a war measure* measure that is necessitated or an action that	is necessitated by the	necessities of the
present crisis=	Because this,	like all	other	fishing mattere
that you have to consider at this time, which involve a matter of production, are of a nature that can be carried only through a period of years, and that you cannot derive immediate returns from any action which you may take this year or next year.
In considering what might be test to do in the case of the soeXeye run, one might say that if it has reached the condition that the grounds are denuded of	spawning	fish,	the most reasonable and r tional	wa^ to hand)e	it would	he to	shut down entirely,
fut we mast consider that llature, in operating on the Fraser River district daring the odd years, had many generations, possibly many hundreds of y ars, to bring backof the off year rune to the big years runs, and it failed to do it. If, then, we were to let by all of the fish at this time, we hsve n reasonable way of determining whether or not Mature will at this time profit by what we would offer, and deliver to us at the end of any period of years returns which would represent legitimate interest on the sacrifices ve would he called on to make. therefore, I consider that ve cannot aodpt that plan, but must consider itabsolutely and solely from a business standpoint# a question of practicability, and a question of expediency* We have an example on the Columbia River, where possibly conditions are not as bad as they are on the Sound at the present time,but where the run had been depleted possibly fifty per cent of its former maxi-mum, and where it was very reap idly going do n* We adopted remedial measures that were not of the nature of a complete closing, but were aimed to permit the escape of a reasonable proportion of the catch to the spawning grounds, and to the hatcheries; and as a result of those messi;res, we have succeeded in building back on the Columbia River, so that It is today producing as much as it did in the palmiest days of the Industry, and when commercialism first attempted to take from that river for commercial purposes. Therefore, It seems to me, that even though we will admit that the sockeye is a different fish in its habits from the Columbia River salmon, or from the Spring Salmon, that we probably can, by adopting some method or methods somewhat similar, accomplish somewhere near the same results. I think we orobafcly know as much about the habits of the sockeye salmon to-day as we did of the spring salmon at the time we were undertaking to do that work.
In considering this from a business stand point, it seems to me that you must first consider the fact that you have inv sted in the business on behalf of the canneries a tremendous amount of money. *s far as the Sound dinners are concerned, their invest-merits are located . n salt water. If you were to consider a complete closing you won d have to recognise the fact that their visible
properties, that is, their portable properties will be undoubtedly
the period of approximately destroyed in/three years time by the teredo and by the other
elements which nature tends to cause deterioration of such "l&nts.
As far as their machinery is concerned, the average canning
machinery .ill scrap itself in about five years, therefore, if
you are considering the complete closing, you must consider that
those men will be absolutely put out of business and their entire
investment lost.
You must also consider the fact that a good many of those men are deponent on the financial institutions of this country, and that those financial institutions have a direct Interest in those properties. If they knew that they were to be closed down and rendered valueless, they .ou'id cert, in demand the money which has been loaned upon this collateral, and that would cause undoubted hardship on the owners of the property, and considerable apprehension on the art of the loaners.
You mast also consider the men who are actually enggged in the business, that is, the men who are catching fish to-day, who have mrcha.sed their h #es, who have located their f milies, all with a view to the calling which they are engaged in. Those men will be compelled to pull up stakes, to possibly dispose of their present property, to find other means of employment, and then very oubtful if at the end of the period it might seem possible toopen again, that these ,aen could be secured, for those occupations, at least re. dily secured.
Then you must consider the reposition from the standpoint of the people of the state. fhls .ro erty, which is now used in the fishing business, represents a tremendous amount of taxable property. If you close that, it becomes valueless. You are removing from your tax rolls, just at the time when they need the money the most, a considerable source of revenue and investment.
You must also consider it from the standpoint that people
have been accustomed to receive fish for their own use, and unless
we Ccn offer to them or give them a most excellent reason for
X think
depriving them of this, the psychological ef ect on them xtasdai. would be depressing.
In addition to that, I feel v e must consider the question of the State’s rights and interest in the matter. It may be very true, it might ; oz ibly be eventually decided, although I doubt it that the Federal government had the right to absolutely control this. But if you attempt to at through anything the state is not heartily in accord with, you will cert?, inly receive opposition from the representatives of the state and Congress, a d you will i ndoubtedly have the question of the contest before the courts of the country, and the ultim? te result will be that instead of accomplishing what you aim to accomplish in this matter, and which you could certainly have ; ccomplished by taking possibly half a loaf, you would be f&cing the alternative of having secured nothing, and teeing the industry go by the boerd.
218I	had the honor to be invited b§r Dr. Smith to join with other gentlemen fromthis country and Canada, in conferring in Victoria over this matter, and I feel that possibly I am a little out of lace in referring to the memoranda which I believe I may safely say we agreed upon as the maximum that all of the conferees at that plan could subscribe to. I would like to refer to that memorandum somewaht in detail, and then to asi that a copy of it be placed on the records.
CHISF JUSTICE RASM: iVhat did you say this is, Mr. Warren?
MR. ..ARKill: It was simply s memoranda simply as a result of the confere ce we had in Victoria, which seemed to be the maximum of the main points at issue, and which all subscribed to. I want you to understand, and I think Mr* Found will bear me out, and also Dr. Smith, that this memoranda does not of necessity represent the full views of ev ry one that was there* They felt, however, that they could subscribe to that as far as it ent. Is that not correct, l*r. Found ?
MR. FOUSD: Yes, sir.
CL I .F JUSTICE HAZES: If I understand you then, that was subscribed to as far as it went, but there were those present who thought it did not go far enough?
MR. wARREB: Yes.
CRI F JUSTICE HASO: And it cannot be, in any sense, subscribed as an agreement.
£R. *VARREH: It cannot in that sense, no, sir. There were somegentlemen present, and 1 am very fran& to say that I was one of thorn who did not feel that, rcm the points that were discussed, that the,- could s..bscribe to anything that as broader than this memoranda. $here were other gentlemen who felt that it did not go far enough.
Chi T JUSTICE HAS3I: Well, this is a little more, then, than a basis for discussion' fhis is somethin that is not binding on any one, or in any way not bin ing upon this Commission?
HR. aARE2H: Hot in any way. 1 do not so understand it*
In the first lace, in considering this matRer, I would believe that it would be absolutely necessary to define the limits of the waters involved* Bythat 1 mean that no waters ghould be included uuder any agreement sshich comprised any outside of § direct line or pat? of the Frasier river fish* In other words, that a line drawn approximately, roughly spooking, from .Port Crescent, possibly .hidby Island, and from there on iu a reasonably straight or comprehensive ay to the Frazer River district, represents the ath of the fish which are directly headed for that spawning area, and that any fish in any waters outside of that district in ugot sound are of no concern of the commission from an in-term;, tie rial standpoint, but could be assumed to be headed for state waters, and thus purely a state matter.
The second proposition vv-, a that it seemed reasonable to provide for on annual closed season for over a period of eight years, commencing in 1919, said closed se; son to be of sufficientlength to cover a sufficientpart of the cockeye season of each ye r as to permit .he escape of approximately fifty per cent of the expected pack on either side f the International Boundary, fhs closed se son to be so gsad.uated as to allow for tidal conditions as the mouth of the Fraser River which might delay the migration of the fish*
In connection with that natter in listening to tie testimony of to- ay, it seems that very few would venture a suggestion as to what the delay or as a overlap in time of that closed season should he. It teems to me that is a very simple matter to determine* If you take the run on the American side of the bounc ry *nd compute it into a composite curves so to speak, and will take the run on the Canadian side of the boundary, and eoaput e it into s composite curve, so to speak, that the difference in dates between those two dates must of necessity be the difference in the average rate of travel of those fish over the entire rate of years over which it is com uted, and \*;ould to ms seem to be conclusive evidence as to what rate of travel of those fish was and e very, very simple matter to determine.
The only modification which might be necessary to make of that resalt would be that under normal circumstances, that is, circumstances on v/hich the maximum, or all, of the gear is in use, it is very probable thfct the runs are somewhat broken up, and that the fish in their attempt to dodge these vari us instruments of
*> ‘)|
/W Aw* * -capture, will probably be moved slower and less consistent than
eRt i re
would a run when the amount of gear is out, so I think you must allow a slight modification of the results for the fact that if all gear was removed that the fish would be running more consistent iy, and possibly a little bit more rapidly.
the third :roosition is the appointment of an International Commission of four members, two from each side of the Line, the Americans to be appointed by the Secretary of Commerce and the Governor of the state of aashinpton jointly. The members of this commission should hold office for a period of eight years, unless so-ner removed by the respective appointing powers.
With res ect to the suggestion of the appointment of the Americans, it seemed to me that if these two gentlemen would by designated by the appointive power to act Jointly, there would be no question but what the interests of the Federal government, as well as the interests of the state, were fully served; be6ause they certainy have to agree on the men they & point, and. those men would have to be satisfactory to both*
The fourth proposition that the comm is si on be required to inspect the Fraser River watershed and to rform such other functions as may be necessary, or may be imposed upon them.
If in the judgment of this Commission, they believe, alter investigation, thst the restrictions placed on the fishing in the ye.'.r 1919,were inadequate to provide for sufficient escape to
the spawning grounds, to accomplish the purposes of the agreement,
()rp)then such Commission might absolutely close the sockeye fishing for the year 1920, and for every fourth year thereafter; notice of such action to be given prior to December 15th. Said Com ds-sion shall have no other legislative or restrictive powers, but may have the power to rescind or otherwise lessen the effect of any regulation that subsequent events show that such action might be advisedly taken
Th. reason why this was placed in the year 19£G, at least my re son for arriving at those conclusions, was that the pack on the off year shows a consistent decline through a certain eriod. In 1919 we have the humpback and other fish appearing on the Sound District in considerable numbers. So it would seem inadvisable to close, or permit that tost to be made, if such were necess ry on & year when it woulc work unnecessary hardiiip upon the industry by affecting other lines of fish or other varieties of fis%, than those which we sought first to take care of. Therefore, in placing it in the year 1920, it seemed reasonable to suppose that we are placing it at a time that is, assuming that these gentlemen might elect to take that action at a time when possibly it would be disadvantageous to canners snc to fishermen to operate anyway. The pack, of 1916, I believe, shoved approximately 89 ,<XG cases on the American side of the line ana I thinh 85,000 on the Canadian side, at least, I will look that up to be sure of it. In 1915, it showed 84,000 oases on the uget CounR si'e of the line, and 27,000 cases approximatelyon the Canadian side of the line, or a tbfcal of somewhere in the neighborhood of 117,000 eases.	low, if we were to
follow the decrease during the last cycle of off years it is reasonable to suppose that the	eotancy on either side of the line
would be hardly more than fifty per cent of those amounts, and alter you h~d taken out your fifty per cent it would only leave you with something forty to fifty thousand cases to hope to secure which certainly the c^nners on neither side of the line would he justified in preparing for. But at the same time, we left this open to the decisio of this Commission, realizing that some conditions which might arise which might render it unefcvisable to talie that action.
The fifth proposition was that fishing be discontinued above Hew Westminster bridge, and that the regulations be enacted which would prevent the increase of gear over the amounts now used in Canadian waters.
I consider th t this was a very megnanimous on the part of the Canadian people, but at the same time, as far as I am concerned, it is a concession which I wo 13 not have asked* I would have been perfectly willing that they gauge their operations in any way that they saw fit, so long ,s they permitted the required amount or the required proportion to escape, and that is the way I would ei sonally feel about it. I ?/ould not consider that it was a point that I vould want to insist upon. The other gentlemen might have felt different .
The sixth proposition, regul, bions to be sought on the Americanside of the line, which would prevent any increase in the present
fishing operations, and wiish would regulate the distances between
gear of the same class, and of different classes. In other words,
fc	t if	it were	advisable from the	standpoint of the conversation
of	the	industry	to require traps to	he put a	certain distance a
£tear
part, to provide that fen should, not extent more than a th rd of the distance across the channel,it would be re sonable to put in effect such other restrictions as results may have determined may be necessary as will in rare those re; soneble number of open laneg of passage through which the fish could escape to the soawning grounds.
CHIaF JtSTXCS LA2E3S: Ho regulation was presented of this?
MR*	mARRMN:	Ho regulations, R.r«	Justice,	as I understand it,
between	ge r of	different classes.	That is,	the purse seine could
go right up to s trap; a gill net could go right up to a purse seine, end vice versa. The only proposition is that it is gen:.rally supposed	to be covered by tRe lew that	no ge. r shall	extend over a third
of	th distance across any water	ay or stream,	but that	might be
progressive proposition.
MR. X'ARi/IH: That is only in th fishing*
CR.l’ F JUSTICE HA2SH: T’h t is	only in the fishing?	There is	no
restriction in the waters, I was	not advised. you cen	out in
as many traps as you please?
WARH1&?: Ho, sir, they have to be a certain distance.
mi?.iicCORD: rrhey have to be twenty-four hundred feet laterallyfrom each other and six hundred feet endwise.
DR. SMITH:	lot me inquire as to whet er there is any re-
striction as to a distance across a channel?
HR. LQ.iaiAll: traps do not extend channels, are act permitted wit in three miles of the mouth of any salmon stream in the state;
DR* SIuITK:	i seem to have gotten a contradictory response
to my inquiry. It was as to the existence of any restrictions on the setting of traps in channels.
5f3. LG R. MAN; There, are no channels where any trap may be where it conflicts with navigation, because after we have acquired the right for a trap from the state, we then nrust acquire a permit from the united States government for that same structure before we can erect it, and they vill always see to it that it does not cross channels to prevent naglgation, nor, by state law, be ne rer than three .miles to any fresh water ch.nnels.
DR. SMITH:	I have in mind the Sen Juan I si? nds, and the
numerous channels bet eon those islands, in which I believe trap nets are set , hat is the restriction in regard to the distance across such passageway between islands that traps may be set?
iR:ft. ^ORRaU : Ih legal restrictions whatever, but a physical one, which h: s n t been violated because the condition does not exist. Si: ty-five feet at low tiae prevents it.
JRIt. ..ARIllil: I think, Dr* Schmidt, that was never me.de necess.u15
ry in the open waters of ^uget Sound, as far as that is concerned, by the physical conditions that exist. As they drop over rapidly to extreme depth and the limit of depth at which a trap can be set there is no known places, as 1 have been informed, at which a tri- p an even cover but s small part of that distance on account of the extreme depth and the natural physical conditions
DR* SMITH:	Of	course, traps can be set in almost any depth
of water.
ME. LORMAN: Yes, they can, but the limit of the state is sixty-five feet at low tide.
DR. SMITE: Let me inquire for the completion of this particular point, whether the setting of floating traps is recognized and permitted in the state of Washington, traos which ar.	not	supported by stages, but by anchors	and buoys?
MR.	D BWIH: In the state of Washington,	traps ere only	per-
mitted to a (epth of sixty-five feet.
MR.	wARRJEH: as the seventh oroposition,	decrease in	the	present
length of gill nets, and prohibition of drag chains for	the
taking of sockeye salmon.
iis to the decrei-se in leng h of gill nets, it seemed reasonable that if a restriction are placed on the length of other classes of gear, it was only fair that a reasonable restriction be placed on the length of that class of gear -
SECRETARY III: FI ELI: Just a moment, Mr. Warren. $hat was inyour mind when you sp&e of the decrease erlich is a little indefinite? I mean decrease in the length of gill nets. What is the present length and how much do you propose to lessen them?
;MK. ARRM; I understand they are operated at the present time u to a length of something like three tho sand feet,
SSCRET&RY R KDFIELI: And what 6-id yon propose.
MR. VARR; It seems to me in the neighborhood of three hundred end fifty fathoms, which would be cutting it down to two thousand feet, or thereabouts, would be reasonable; that is, somewhere ne. r to the length of the present purse seine, and other classes of gear.
S DC RET-eRY HE FIELD: A reduction of approximately one-third?
MR. FOTOD: We allow nine hundred feet in Canada.
SECRET RY HEDFIELD: You allow nine hundred feet in Canada.
How, that seems to me to be a very important matter, this diminution in . he length of gill nets.
MR. iVARREN: It is not a very important factor, Dr. Smith. The gill nets at the present time, catch, as I understand, but little more than five per cent; so it is more apparent than real.
SECRETARY REDFIiRLD: Yes. But the regulation of distances, isnt thtt a matter of------
MR. .VARKEIv : The distance between gill nets?
SECRETARY: IN Ko.6, regulation of distances between gear of the same class end different classes?
MR. WARREN; Yes.ST.. SH0R2TR.RY REDFISLD: Easnt that great possibilities of good?
MR. lVARkES : It undoubtedly has. The general idea of restriction bet een ear is with a view to maintain these open 1, nes, and there is no reason why, if each class of gear is required to observe certain restrictions as to distance between other:.- of its can class, as to why some interchange of reli tion betaeen the different cl sses shoud not be brought about in order to see thfct those 1: nes are maintained open. I can t see any objection to it.
ShCEET JRY R&DFIKLD: I have in mind the very- — 1 think Dr.Smith will justify my saying—-extraordinary results in Chesapeake Bay over this very similar thought, and suggested to you as offering, I ope, something similar here if carried out. There, if 1 remember right, Dr. Smith, the distance between traps was four hundred feet, was it not?
BR. SMITH: Yes.
SECRETARY REDFIELD: And the traps that were made in Chesapeake Bay made it looh li3ce a fine-toothed comb* On the ground of obstruction o.f navigation, channels were cut as large as twelve hundred feet, others four hundred, others eight hundred, by the ar-ny- The result wes an increase in catch in a single year of soii'ethi.ag over four times the quantity, and for the benefit of the fishermen there, the catch grev. from practically an abandonment of the business in the river-—in the rivor the fishermen had proctic&lly gone out of business, and some of theconcerns had been doing business for thirty years and stopped o--erating- — from th ,t condition in a single year it grew to where ir seven or eight weeks, perhaps not quite so long, on an investment of one hundred and fifty dollars, they were earning from a minimum of eight hundred dollars to over one thousand dollars in that length of time.
MR . Me0OHD; rliwt sort of fish were those?
S1C RUTAHY REDFIKLD: All shad.
MR. HcCORD: A.t the mouth of the Rappahannock River?
SICCRIZT BY REDFIIaLR : All through there on the Virginia side.
R-iR - Rio CORD: I did not know you had a passageway between the traps on Chesapeake Bay. How long has that been done.
I'R- SKIT1 : Tery recently! end brought about by the navigation
law.
MP. McCGRD: I set; it is not a fishing measure at all.
DR. SMITH: Ho.
HR. HeCv,RD : But mere 1 y inoidenta 1 13 the commerce of the country?
DR. SMITH: Yes.
SECRET RRY R5MFIFLD; The change was incidents 1, yes; there was a fixod distance between traps provided by the Yirginfe laws.
&r. smith; Yes, but it was not very material.
3hC 'r'AR'> RCDFISLD: No, it v'as srrali; this was wholly done through the Engineering Corps of the Army.
,cCO:m : :.y recollection of tho^e traps was, that one-half
a 3()
frmf	'trap fastened right on to the other.
SJECRETAHY RSSDFIELD; Oh, no.
MR. McCORT : aas there, before the Virginia law?
DR. SMITH; There was a smell opening provided.
MR. McCORf: So close you could not see the distance	from
the apron, how much was there, hr. Smith.
DR. SMITH: Just a few hundred feet.
SECRETARY RET'-FISLD:	I went between between them on the
steamer. Despite thst, even when the Engineering Corp cut this passage, that happened, and happened right away.
MR. AARRhJ: The • ighth proposition, the .prohibition of the fishing for salmon, by any means, in-1 dont know whether I properly or improperly designated it as the extraterritorial waters contiguous to the coast of either country.
Chi HE? Justice BAZhli: What a prehension have you for	preserving
that' The high seas are open to the people of every country.	You
could do it by custom regulations'
MR. ,-ARRSJS: It would be by controlling th market. It is an indirect way of accomplishing the purpose.
Cl I ? JUSTICE	You might do it til by custom perhaps.
Ve have such a law in the soonge industries of Florida. It could be done in such a way.
MR. rARRaK: There is no large investment at the present time involved in thooe so-called off shore r extraterritorial fisheries but at th© s^me time that territory represents the feeding grounds of a vast quantity of the fish that are coming into those Insidewaters, and I believe that it is just as essential to see that the fish are unmolested at those feeding grounds as they are on their spawning grounds« It is a notable fact that trailers and others arc bringing in from those outside waters, probably not sockeyes, in as large quantities, but certain cohoes that are of a very small size, or compsr tively small size, but which in a month or tvo ai e1 be o: far greater commercial value than they ,vere when t .aen, and it seems to me that it is only reasonable t: at those waters and those- feeding grounds should be preserved to them as fax as reasonably possible. And I might also say that includes the sp ring salmon that Ere upon those grounds.
The ninth proposition, that the international commission,so-ctlled, to be empowered to operate new hatcheries on either side, to re-stock present hatcheries, to make investigations, to eon-..act experiments, and to do any and all such work as ight be pertinent to this agreement, the cost of the work to be assessed between the contracting parties proportionately to the pack output of each.
i understand that the Cant uians reel tnat they are am iy alls to tohe care ef the expense incident to propagation of fish in the Eraser Eivor basin; q.o the same time it seems no more than fair that others who profit by the results of those labors should bear their just and equitable portion of any outlay that may be accessary.
uon, in considering the results, or the rapidity of the
•a o O
£ O b*rahabilitation of the Fraser Elver basin, I certainly would not ?resume to set up my theories against those of the scientists who have made a study of the work. From the result of the work that have been obtained, or the results of the earning of red salmon in the Kushigak River,1'oml River tributary to the lushig&k, end lastly I think the returns or reports which the Bureau of fisheries has put out# And I wo;i d like to have hr.Smith correct me if i am in error, indicates that the average of probably five hundred thousand spawning fish has passed into the Wood River lakes yearly*. Is that correct, Dr. Smith?
MR. Bl'JIJK: fhat is my reoollection.
MR. .*ARR£N: It ?ould seem to me that if this could be taken as a fair basis, that we could assume that in that district that the Unimak and headwaters of the Kushigak, probably both, and the Chitina, th-; t in all proability there escape to those other areas, an amount equal to what went into the Wood river district. The pack of the Hushigak averages somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million cases of fish* It would therefore seem that it was necessary to permit the escape of approximately two hundred thousand fish for each hundred thousand cases of salmon. If you were to apply that same scale to the 7raser ? yer, and it seems to me, from a few figures which Mr. Babcock gave, when he was in Victoria, that such a comparison might be reasonable. As I understand it, as near as they could estim.ite, about four million fish went up in 1909; isthat correct, T'£r *Ba boocle?
MH. BABCOCK;: That is in Chesnal Lake alone.
MR, RAHB,: In 191-3, about £50,(X 0 in Chesna' Lake*
MR. BABCOCK: In 1917, less than £8,000.
MR. RHB3N: a'ell, it #oul& indicate in reducing those figures that somewhere near those estimates might be considered the travel in those districts. So in fimiring out the rapidity of your returns, it would seem re?sonabla to compare the number of fish hieh your fifty per cent of escapement would permit and apply those rules to it, as giving you some ides as to how fast the rehabilitation mig:t take place.
Thank you.
La CRiiM’/. i lari;MMD: a oop£ ox the memoranda: nauget~Sound-fra-sc r * vertr, being the memoranda uo which you refer, Mr.Warren will be placed in the record. It is -index*stood* that this memoranda, as stited by Ur.barren, is submitted solely for the consideration of th< commission, sad for discussion with a view to Its possible future action.
(Memorandum referred to received end. filed as an exhibit)
SR;ciirrARY RuLFIaLI): Hotu should bo male, in interpreting the phrase ’’In the Fraser River Watershed’ of the statement heretofore made by l:r.barren to the effect that this is intended to include all of the waters concerned on both sides of the boundary, and is at to be taken in its restricted meaning.MR* LOWMM (Earning papers to Secretary Hedfield) Those were requested, and at the same time, I wish to make a very short statement concerning them. Secre
SECRETARY HEDFIS13): Yes. The Commission has received from ir. Lo man tv,o copies of the statement conts ining the figures mentioned by him yesterday, which are to be made a portion of the record, and with it are copies of the statement entitled r,The Sock eye Run on the Fraser River ; its resent Condition and its Future ^Prospects.u by IB. C.fi.Gilbert, a copy of which is han ed to eooh member of the Commission for their personal use,
>nd a copy of which will be made a porti yn of the record.
(P pers referred to received and filed as exhibits).
CHIEF JUSTICE BAZEff: Mr. LowmaEn, I notice in the statement, the Alaska "acRers Association gives the figures from January 20th to January 31st.
MR* L0.VMA8: June was intended.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZBK: All of the others are from July 20th to July 31st.
MR. LOWMAB: Yes.
CKIHF JUSTICE IIAZEN: That had better be corre ted before it £ets on the record.
MR. L Oft MAH: It is the stenogra her's mistake.
Cl IMF JUSTICE HAZEH: I think it had better be gone over carefully before it is put on the record.
FURTHaR STATEMENT BY W. A. L0W2SAH.
MR. LOti'MAH: If you lease, Mr Secretary, the error made thereis one that would natural y correct itself. We have no sockeye flatting in January. The stenographers were working very hard, and it covered a large mass of testimony from the Different earners*
The records that I just presents to you and those tabulations cover operations of the very smallest and of the very largest eanners, those which deal only in times gone by, but more recently with purse seines, or only with traps, and prior to that time those which deal in the joint production of raw fish with both the trap and the purse seinse, and those that deal only in the jurse seine or purchase the fish from others. And I regret very much that I did not go over it, but being so thoroughly familiar with the subject myself as to thse dates, I had no thought of the error thi.t occurred, and I regret it, as I say, exceedingly; not that it did any harm, but that I was so careless* I dont want to weaken my standing^ he Commission at this time by being reckless.
SEC ETARY RED FI ELD: Mr.Lowman, when we find the fellow who has not yet made a mistake, we will take and put him in a glass cage and look at him. Do you wish to make a statement ?
MR. LC'/ZMAU: Only just a very short one, and I am through and that is covering o e point made by Mr. Warren, in the closing of 1918.
In 1918, which is the year I wish to discuss, it was suggested yesterday the possibility of any closed season which was had as & finding of this commission would be made operative. It has been a sort of an understanding with the American peopleat least not having drders in Gou oil to fall back upon that the opor.tion of governmental functions were exceedingly slow -vaile exceedingly sure, and therefore the fishing fraternity of Puget Sound took it for granted by reason of long years of past experience! that whatever would happen would not happen by govern mental action this year, and could not happen by legislative action before next year. Therefore, all borrowings of moneys at the banks, all employment of labor, and all the purchasing and aslambling of the supplies, creating of fish trusts, and the getting ready and launching of purse seines, divert just a moment, to show you that almost every canner on uget Sound, almost every trap operator, is heavily interested in purse seines, in order that anything that came to your minds yesterday that there might be a difference between all of the purse seines and all of the trap seines is entirely erroneous. Most of the seines were builtpp by the financial assistance of the. canneries. fhat is being done again this year, and every year*
How, to close the season this yesr in view of the expected pack of more than two million cases total, less than last year, with the expected commandeering of more than #ist would amount to forty per cent, and quite easily fifty per cent of the total pack for the use of our own and our Allies armies, it would be unwiee to toke this ye-r any closing measure, this year of the cycle of four, granting that the scientists are right, that it travels in cycles of four, the t the sockeyes in the Fraser River, then this year has shown the most consistent upholdingof its pack of any of the four year periods, due, of course, in the big ye r to the sliding in the Fraser over rihieh Mature had no control--neither had the canneries. But I would urge most emphatically th? t there be no diminution of the efforts this year. If it took fifty years to tear down this run, it is just as e: sily under, tood that it will take at least fifty and quite likely much more than fifty to rebuild it.
You have before you a statement of the greatest authority on fisheri s that we have in our vicinity, and that Mr. Eabcoek, constituting the acific Coast authority, resident on this coast who says th- t two fi h will produce two more. I must disagree with that st.tement, or else,I must stand here and advocate the people catch all the sockeye at this time, regardless of the future,in order to save at least the four years interest, and the possibility of loss of the investment, should they go on up- 1 cannot accede to any statement of that kind. X do not believe that it is possible that two mature, spawning fish will only produce two more. If such is the case, cur efforts are useless and our time is wasted. The condition that can be brought about is best represented,by what, in my opinion, is that of the incubator as regards pototry. The theory was of course the practice was an utter failure, but they were not discouraged they were not disap ointed, and to-lay it is an absolute success; and so can the incubating of fish be made a success through the operation of hatcheries. It is a question of scientific Retail, but it is not a question of whether 1918 is necessary or unnecessary.The banks of this city and of this community have made exceedingly heavy advancements, due to the HetLbleeost of the ope ations, and the purchase of material, not on the ground that there would be a reduction of their security by reason of the cutting out, but on the theory that this operation would sot begin until another year, which will produce, with the loss of the seckeye, from a commercial point of view, a revenue which will very largely arrange the financial and coramere.. al detail necessary and incident to s loss of a large per cent of the sockeye fish.
CillhF JUSTICE KAZEH: You made a strong argument, Mr * bowman*
I	got your point exactly* Let me ask you, if these canneries made arrangements for their supplies of tin for their cans and ev rythin of that sort, for 1918.
MR. LCh.'MAJH: Through those canneries which make their own cans and those through the can making commereit I houses, such as Amertc-anCan Corn any, etc., all arrangements have long since been made*
CMEF JUSTICE HAZE1: Contracts have been entered into?
/R. LOVr?£AH: Contracts have been entered into, and many, in deed many of the deliveries, have already been made.
CMSF JUSTICE EAZEH: Deliveries are made of these cans and tin?
MR. LOCMAC: In many cases.
SKCRET/JRY RED FI ELD: Is there any shortage of tin cans?
MR. LCsVMAH: There will be no shortage of tin cans for salmon this year; nor there was none this last ye r; and I have lot Lny re eon to think there will be another year. We arefeeling entirely satisfied on that point, because we fully expect irom t o to three millions less cases in covering the entire field this year, from what we had last.
ChIMM JMST'ICE EA2EM: fnere is the pack of ruget Sound marketed sold?
MR. LOWMAH: Some at my place is going now to the United States Government. It goes the world over. ’There is no place in the world in which canned salmon-------
GHIMF Justice HASMI: In view of the present condition oi shipments, will it be possible for you during the coming year, to ship your products to the markets you heretofore shipped them to?
MR. LOWMAK: If every oase packed in Seattle and Puget Sound is laid on the Seattle dock, after the Government had taken that which we have reason to thin £ it is going to take, the sa&rkfcts of the United States alone, to take the place of wheut, pork and beef, which we want to Send to our Allies, will not be fully supplied.
Ci.laF JUSTICE HAZEII: You think you can sell it all in the United States, even if the shipping conditions are such it cannot be sent over-seas?
HR. LO.JiAH ; After the commandeering.MR. v*AHRE3J* Mr. Justice, possibly 1 can enlighten you on the subject a little by giving you statistics of the conditions last year. The pack of the entire acific Coast was, roughly speaking, ten million six hundred thousand cases of salmon; and of that there was un old at the beginning of this year, or, I might say, at the present time, orobably a little over 200.000 cases, indie ting th t the entire pack had gone into consumption in one ay or the other.
Acco ding to the very best statistics we can obtain, this last year the government used in the neighborhood of 750,000 cases; that is the American government. The domestic eonsu ption was some where in the neighborhood of five million; there were probably about two million cases of the American pack that ent abroad.
You know ..ht.t happened as to your pck.
Cl IEF JU TICE HAZES: Yes.
MR. V7ARRJ®: The reasonable expectancy of this coming year is probably not over seven million, six hundred thousand cases* about three million less than last year. last year was the largest pack evr on record. The average has teen in the neighborhood, that is, which you right predict the igh average has been in the neighborhood of 7,600,000. There is no reason to believe thst the high average will be more next year, considering that the pinks are off the Sound, considering the pinks were so extraordinarily heavy last ye»r, and it is reasonable to sup >ose, following the law of averages, the s; e reason will exist agf in. Now, if the sck on the coast went again to 7,600,000the best information we can now secure, that this Government will
take probably in the neighborhood of 2,000,000 cases- ‘There is no
question but they will provide the transportation for them if
they take them. It will go to this country, or it will go abro. d.
.3hat wi 1 mean that there will be approximately 3,000,000 less than
by the .government
the last p ck, and another million	will be	taken	out/over and o
above what there was last year, so	It	will	leave	absolutely no
question the balance of the pack could be marketed domestically; and in feet, It would appear that the	domestic m	rket will be
far short of its requirements.
SaCE-aT/EY 1 RaiELD: I want to ask you some definite questions* Mr. Lowman.
FURTHER STATEMENT BY ti.A.LOWMAB
SSCRSTjRRY Rru FIiiLi : Our time is getting precious, and we have quite a number of things which we .rust get into the record to-day, and certain definite facts we need to know.
There seems to be a general agreement that by some means and methods approximately fifty per cent of the sockeye salmon in the Fraser River should be allowed, to escape for spawning.
Tie statement which has been handed to me by Mr.Lowman does not
state----1 wa it to get it cle .r what is intended by it--—does not
3t&te what the units are. Are these fish—
MR. LOtYMAI: Single fish.
SECRET .RY RhDFIRL ; Th- figures then refer to single fish?
/hen you say----and observe I am 3sying this, not for your hearingor my own, but for the printed record, which we will read wegks after va have all separated-—the figures, then, that you mention for the Alaska Rackere Association of 3,289,728 mean that number of individual salmon?
MR. L0.fiRAH : fha t is right *
SECRET BY REPFIKLD: And so through out the paper* that is right is it, and so throughout the paper?
MR. LOR l&kM : Yes, sock eye sal mo n.
SECRR'I RY REoFIELD: Rnd refers to soclceye salmon exclusively.
MR. LOi'MAH: Only*
SECRETARY REDFIEL • Only* fhe next matter that I notice, is, that in no case of the total average percentages do the dates from July 20th to 31st inclusive, eqxial fifty per cent?
HR. L0WR1AI: That is true, with the exception of 1917 and one other year, in some esses.
SECRETARY EE FI EL la I observe that in a certain number of years for example,in the case of one cannery, 1905,and 6f and 1914 and 17 ; in the e se of another in 1917, and still another in 1912 and 17; there are examples where the runs, the catch, rather, in the period of ten days from July EGth to ^uly 31st, inclusive, exceeds fifty per cent, but that the average in no cases is larger than forty-two and a half oer cent as a vhole, which is the smallest of oil the canneries reporting, and that it runs as low as 20.4 per cent in another case.
MR. LORPAH: Those can be explained, Rir. Scretary, the same waythat you would explai ;the failure of your complete success were yon fly-casting in some stream day by day. It is the chance of the fisheries. But when you come to consider, not possibly,
Mr. Secretary, that we should have been a little more difinite in making onr statements here, as you were not present yourself, and Mr. Justice Bazen at the original point at which this statement was first made, when ne fixed in our minds, and has been more recently touched on, on the theory we knew exactly what had already gone by, and, of course, everybody else. The theory ..ip n which the fifty per cent was based was this; There would be more than fifty per cent of the fish permitted to go by, by such a close-dom as that time included in most cases, two closed period of thirty-six hours e,ch. The ten days frequently occurs, both ends of the week, although it might .just as e.sily occur as there would be only the one end of the week.
SECRETARY	Excuse	me-	Then furthermore, you would
assume, I take it, that you did not get all of the fish there were at any of these times.
/JR. LOiiMAH: ;tnd there was always, in the original discussion of this question, the question of the uncaught fish. Cur theory was that t least fifty per cent of s 11 of the fish uncaught were in the closed season uncaught, and we feel thst those figures there present very complete proof thst more than fifty per cent would get by under the statistics of that time, which are pleasing to us rather than displeasing.
Referring to these statements, you will bserve the n.raber of p* ftpiuht. i:oniffive salmon, between	EOth and 31st, thenthe total season’s pack of sockeye. That refers to the total season1s pack of sockeye on nget Sound. The percentage shows the percentage of Imerican fish, that is, those taken here*
SECRETARY REDFIELD: I dont find that here, Mr.Lawman.
MR. LOWMM: That is in the statement* I am explaining the statement of these figures.
SECRETARY REpFIIgJ^your language was not the same. there was no word corresponding with that.
MR. LOmeIAK : Bo, I was not reading; I was simply commenting on it.
SMCRaT RY REDFI ELD: Excuse me.
MR. L0.VMA5: How, you will notice the ercentsge of fish can t
bet een July 2Cth and the 31st of July, for the year 1904,- was
•31 per cent. Take it in 1917, the percentage caught between t at
date, and the total	catch on the American side, as	shown	by those
figures, was 43 per	cent. The figures	vary. One	year,	the year
as
1909, as low as 12 per cent. The average, however, has icen computed here, is 31.4 per cent; is th-	percentage	between July
ioth and July 31st,	of each year.
How, our proposition and our theory of this suggest3pa,^as that e ouRd allow and insure the arrival on the spawning ground of at least fifty oer cent of the run of fish during the entire season. How, you must bear in mind that the same fish that pass through uget Sound are the fish that enter the Fraser River and are caught bp the pack rs there, so that we do know, and have34
and have a test u on that portion of the fish, or at least a portion of than fish that are not caught in Am riesn waters. Those are only the fish caught before the fish reach the Fraser River* R’he Fraser Hiver, during the same period of time, has taken an additional supply of fish.
Now, then, assuming that the Fraser River pa.eke is even one-half of the pack of Puget Bound, or the catch one-half, those fibres would he increased by one-half of the 31*4, or amounting to about 47 per cent of the fish.
SECR^r RY BEDFIELD: I think we get ^ou, Mr. Lowman.
MR. LOv/MAH; That is the point.
CHIRP JUSTICh EAZEH: Then you say that after this closed season stops, even after that there ere a percentage of the fish get through?
MR. LCMMAH: I*ndoub t e d ly. ^ust on seco nd * How s tha t aee ounts for 46 per cent, Mr. Secretary.
ShCRETAP.Y RED FILL a; YeL. I think we get is cle; rly, Mr. Low-
man.
MR. LO.,;.ALT: Then there is a lot of fish that pass by and run the gauntlet, both of the American fisherman, and the Fraser River fishermen, and I think we are safe in saying that we can establish the fact, .nd have established the fact, that at least 50 per cent go by between th..,j e two days.
SECRETARY REDFI&L >: Let me see if I can summarize this in a phrase for the printed record.
To this <31 >er cent, using the figures of the Alaska ackers
246SEQciation for the moment as am example, to this 31 per cent caught during the period letaeon July 20th to July 31st inclusive, should be added in or' er to determine the number of fish that .orRd escape during the proposed closed season, the number caught in the Fraser River its If, after having passed this point, and als the number which escape entirely at both points. And you estimate that the total of this 31 per cent, plus the catch in tins river Itself, plus those which escape, would be equal to at least fifty per cent of the total amount?
MR. LOriMM : Yes, sir.
SMCRUT RRY RZDPITRJRR-: T.s that clear to you, Mr. Kazan*
CHIRF JUS TICE HJLSEH: His calculation is clear.
SECRETARY HEDFIFLD: Yes, 1 m an his calculation.
MR. MeCCRD; We have the figures at the Fraser K ver. Those we have , vvhich vd 11 be furnished later.
SECRETARY RE-FIJSLD; Yes.
ME. L0,J1A1I; We only have, Mr. Secretary, one set of figures ve v.i.h to submit at this time, ant', then I think for the time, e Kould ni t care to go any further and ' ake up your valuebel time.
It is said th t-----there /a?.; considerable discussion abo t
traps, di they cover channels, and all that. There was 158 operated tracts on uget Sound. These operated traps would average at 2Ch C feet which was a very little estimate* This made .516, GvX, or ap roximately 60 miles of net in our waters. If Iright, and I think: I was, there was £600 gill nets in the Fraser River, covering a auch smaller area of territory, and largely bet een dirt banks, which made £,340,COO line! feet, or 443 ...iles of fence, as against our sixty miles, showing that while we a ay h^ve caught the most fish, it only showed, not more effort, but m re fish.
C IEF JUSTIC f KR.R: You caught more because you got the first shot at them.
MR. L0.7MAH: There was ev rything in position, Mr. Justice Hazen;
ChlEf JOfTICR KA2EC; f aa h a the strategic position.
SECRETARY RKLFIEifD: Is Mr. aarren in the room.
UR. WARREN: Yes, sir.
SECRETARY REBFIXCLD: I ^ust want to ask you a few more questions about this statement, about this memorandum.
GhISF JUSTICE HAZEH: Mr. bowman, Mr. Found wants to ask you a question.
MR. FGUHD: Wh t I had in mind, is there any method by vh ich it ctn be rt<sonably closely calculated from what areas these different fish were caught, what portion of the water, between the Straits of Juan de Fuca and the Boundary?
MR. LOGMAN: They can only be cs?gr t in that comparatively limited area of uget Sound that is traveled by the sochejr®.
MR. Foil HD: Yes, that is quite true; but e were s: easing here yesterday of regions. How, befoie this will have any be. ring on t at, any close bearing on it, it would be desirable to know.J?or instance, take the A. .p.* -s pack*
RfR. LOIM&H : Would you let me answer that in a geographical answer?
MR. FOOITD: That is it.
-iH. nOuROal; a line drawn from the center, b<_ t mm the two ca;es, at the western entrance to the Streite of San Jucn de Puea f a str it line from there to Point Partridge, on the westerly coast of ;hidby Island, and following that eo st for five miles, thence lewing that eo et following from there the northern bound ry of Rosario Straits, to end including the westerly end of hummi Island;	thence the w esterly coast	of	the
United States, which	is the eastern eo st of the Calf of
Georgeia, to the boun ery line, taking from thence west all of the waters to the coast of Vancouver Island is the exact said complete boa nR ry of the soclceye fishing grounds of uget .Sound and the Gulf of Georgia, south of the boundary line at R'oint Hobsrts. m. FOR r : Well, thst is com. lett , but does not satisfy, hat I am trying to get at is this: Take the catch of the i.P.A. wi distributed -ill over the TniteM States waters, from the entrance to--
MR. LOcMAK; Very i&ell distributed indeed.
\'l. .MoCORD: That is m-.re particularly distributed to the lacific American fisheries. That was scattered over the same banks dec r up to the boundary line.
IIP.. fuUM : So in	calculating these figures,	we	won	d have to
take this ss represe	.ting the v/hole American----Re. LQfMaH; rhat covers in .very case in each and every one cf th ■ se canneries, tee cause some of them ere caught in ev ry area*
DP. SMITI : I wo’Hd like to a sic you the basis for these figures?	Are these the numbers of fish, based on the pack of
salmon , or are they the actual numbers of fish received by the various canneries?
MM. LC'MAM: In two of the smaller canneries, they sent their report in in oases p..cled, in wh.ich e arbitrarily toolc the Rip are ten in or .er to get the report, because it was a question of percent pee In the others it ms the actual. Physical count of the fish units, £ally report. We have the original records and re willing to ple.ee them wit the commissi n,
SrCIcETRMY RMDFIE.hr : This statement will be made a art of the record.
(Statement referred to received and filed as an exhibit)-
FUK2£US ST.. T&MOT BY mMK M* &AK&ES
T CHI 7 'RY 7tF,DFI LI': Does the Commission. Mr. Warren, under-otancl correctly, th..t the gentlemen who formed the committee jointly wit! yourself agree uppn the s ggestions raade in this memorandum?
i/M . v IP' ip : a he Committee, you mean? The three gentlemen
from the. American side, or the ntire--------
i IGF 2T; P.Y FM TwM rp : Yes, you three gentlemen from the Americanside?
•::. jR-EIcMS': The three of us were agreed on that memorandum, end the others, as I understood it, were agree! in that they co Ri f si bscribe tc everything there, although it might not represent their maximum views.
SaCariRRPM" Hi® FI ELD: do you feel that you can s y to the Corn ilssion thet the views expressed in this memorandum, the eugges t: ons nade in V , would have the support of the ffehing interests in all their forms of the state of Washington, and of the authorities of the State, concerning the fishing industry.
RR . .AHBai-I; That would be a very hard thing, Mr. Secretary, for me to say. I would say that if I were considering it from the standpoint of my o^n interest, and if I had been interested in the Roaad, I would consider that it was a very reasonable proposition, and that I ight individually have been willing to go even further if ny own interests alone were considered* And it seems to me that the points considered there ought to mee-.t with favor by the people in the industry, and could also be presented to the legislature of the state of Washington in such a way hat they would also certainly give it v^ ry serious and probably favorable consideration.
S:JC E7RXY RU Flair : You would be personally willing sc to do?
L!R. WARIcEK: I would be perfectly willing to make my statement of the case before any committee stating that the reasons arrived at there are -ny views, and my reasons for believing those
*> rr i
/ ^ . J5 care rational and comprehensible.
FURTHER STATEMEIf BY M. L. H. EARWII.
SECRETARY EMM FI ELD: '-,£r. Darwin,	I believe	you	were	one	of	the
gentlemen on this committee, were you not ?
MR* DARWIN: Yes.
SECRETARY REPFIELD: Do yon co-indue with the general statement made by Mr. Warren?
MR. DARWIN: I do, Mr. Secretary.
SECRETARY REDFIELD; And would you, bs an officer of the state of Washington, be willing personally and officially to urge th approval of regulations of	this kind?
MR. I) JRvYIU: I believe it is the	best that	con	<3	be	arrived
at under the circumstances between the two parties in interest.
ST: MERI: iJT BY COJffllAHDSR MILLER FREE&AH,
SECRETARY OF THE WASHI3GT03I FISHERIES ASSOCUITIOK,
SEATTLE. rtASHIUCri'LN.
SECRETARY REDFIELD: Mr. Freeman, you are intimetely In touch with the fishing interests, and I think you were a member of this committee, were you not ?
comnander freeman: Yes, sir-
S -CRr?ARY REDFIEID • Does your view coincide with that of your colleagues on the committee^‘ZJL
CoR ANDEH FREEMEB: Yes, sir.
SECRETARY REDFIELD: And would you be willing, as a publisher, to urge the adoption oi regulations of this tenor, by the State of fashington.
OOmA5DER FRESMAR: 1 would
FURTHER STATEMENT BY MR. S. S. MeCORD.
SECRET aY REXFIELD: Mr* McCord, you are a representative of large fishing interests .here. You have heard this memorandum read, and have heard the statements of these gentlemen^ Would you be willing to join in urging the adoption of results of this tenor?
MR. rlcCORD: By the Legisl&ure?
SEC ITARY;REDFIELD: By the Legislature
MR, HeCORD: I would, unhesitatingly do so . I think it is most desir-ble th t we come to some agreement at this time to try to rehabilitate tais industry. I think that meets with ray approval.	I have not examined all of	it	with care,	but	I	think
in the aain, and I might say, as I feel now, I wouldnt	hesitate
to go anywhere, and undertake to urge the passage and adoption of a lav/ that	would approve of that sort	of	a finding.
SECRET RY	REDFIELD: Mr. Lowman?
MR. LOWMaIJ; To the very best of my ability and with all of my tirre T would go behind tha't declaration, sir.
SECRETARY REDE 11 LI : Kcw, of course, you gentlemen will under-
253stand that I am not attempting to foreshadow---------- it would not
be either courtesy nor correct f r me to attempt by these questions to foreshadow the attitude of the Commission* That is not my thought; I am tryinr to get your attitude before the Commission
COMMMMjER FRISMAf : Mr. Chairmen, _May I ask that the same inquiries be ashed of the Canadian members who are present?
SRCMET F:Y:E££7I' IR ; Yes, cert?5-inly. The some information ■'ill be sought from then as a matter of course.
Chi ? JUSTICE KAZEH: I would like to ask Mr. Warren some questions.
FURTHER STAxSMh^T BY AIR. fRABh M. kARKBH.
Chi'? JUSTICE HAZBB: Do you think this goes far enough, Mr. farren, to be effective.
MR. WARREH: Yes, sir.
ChlRF	JuSTICa	HAZSH: You think that if legislative regulations
such as s	jested	by your Committee,	were	adopted, that they would
effect	,	,	,
have the xJdoExdcban, in a reasonable time, of restoring the socioeye
fishing on the Fraser River to what it was reviously?
MR. MARaEIJ: I	believe they would	have	a tendency to*
CR. ?	JUSTICF	HAZE!!: Within what	time	do you think fishing
wight reasonably restored to the fishing that existed previously?
?MR. WAR:-MW? //ell, in order to answer that question, I would h have tv t ke and figu; e e^oh individual pack and the features connected with it. I think if you were to consider this .year on
o
Othe theory that I caught--------while we have absolutely left this
yeor out oi consideration--------but I am simply using this as
figures tla 5 are must familiar to me at the present time. As I rocoliect, there was a pack of something in the neighborhood of 458,L00 or 459,000.
MR * FoU ;I1>; Here it is here*
MR. raRRILM: In 1914, there was a pack of 404,000 cases on the Sound, and 185,000 on Fraser river; that macie about 589,000 cases* Well, now, if you are following the expectancy of this years pack on the figures which I adopt for my own satisfaction, I ?vonld consider th&t you could seed up the Harrison and Lillooiet districts to the reasonable amount of an off year in one decade; that is, one cycle.
Gi IEV JUSTICE HAZiSN: bo you mean in four years, or in ten years.
MB. VARREft: Four years. This year I would assume to let by enou.ph fish in that time to seed that lake to prob bly five or six hundred thousand pocks.
CHI ILF JT. 3rICL dDc you contend that in a period of four years from toe time thot t ese regui tions, if they re adopted, ill become effective?
MR. .iARREiS: Bo, sir; that I am spooking of is this year. jow, when yoo come down to next year, when you hove got a smaller expectancy, you will require a correspondingly expectancy and it will probably go over two cycles, and possibly more.
OH MM?	:[A'cj cR!: Take the next big year in th - course ofevents would be 1921, apparently?
ME. MARE,Ha?: Yes.
C I M X .TIC: BAZKF; :rcbably the big year has dise'ppe red because of the disaster thst occurred up on the Fraser Hirer, the filling in of the channel that prevented the fish going up there* How, if tlis regulation, or regul tions somewhat similar to these ere ado;ted, and the law was strictly enforced on both sides of the bound*ry, how long do you think it woud be before we could expect a result in the Fraser river comparable with the result that occurred in 1913?
};	'RRRC: That would be somewhat of a very hard question to
answer*	I think you would have to wait until you had passed the
esc. peB,	or examined the escapes, of one of these closing years,
before your con d	determine	et	all.
CKIRF JIM TICK	H&ZEU: It	is	really experimental	then.
MR .	MRR KR: It is large 1 y exp eri ementa 1.
Ci la’ .njSTXCE fcAZjfifi: And would it be possible to get figures you could stand by?
HM.	,'ARMEM: Absolutely impossible. The only thing 1 could
s. y, of course, I	know nothing	about the salmon or	the s >awning
grou xds in 1913 or in 1917,	but I would say if you	pc-ck on	bot h
sieee oi the line this yeart in the neighborhood of 600,000 eases and following some r tio of decrease, your expectancy of 19El rlight be in the neighborhood of 300,000 cases, or in that neig. borhood. You h^ve llowed your ercent ge to escape,the amount of fish that 150,000 cases should represent, nd I think you would seed back that area, may be six or seven hundred Uiousanc in thst time. Well, then, year next cycle of expectancy might double the t seeding, so it might be three cycles or four cycles before you got bac> bo the big' year on that*
CHIEF JUS TICM Ha R/EH: Would your opinion be that you cou d reason ably expect to get book to that big year in three or four cycles?
j£i* AHH2M: Mnat would all depend upon hysical conditions.
1 c a on y SuV t. t on the Columbia River district, we started ia ia 19J8, reaching our low tide, and we have ;rought it back in ten years.
CMI R- JR RTIGa iiAEEM: Mint fish is it on the Columbia river?
ICM v^ARRMN: It is a different variety of salmon*
Cl:IIF JIMRTICE KkZEU: Veil, isnt there a difference, having r> £~ard to the different varieties of salmon , more easily propagated artificially; and are not the results better than ours?
i£R. ARRaH: 01 course, sorae are more susceptible to artifid 1 propagation th.jn others.
Cl IF JUSTICE	Is	it	not	true	that	the sock eyes are
less susceptible to artificial handling ano artificial propagation than the majority of salmon on the Columbia River?
MR. ARREH: I dont know that I would go so far as that. I
X
v;ouIu s&y we dont know as rauch about it at the present time, and how to handle it. But I dont knov? we are any more in a trap considering the sockeye salmon, regarding this crisis, than
we v,ere v ith the other salmon, at the time of the crisis
" > ! *t <y•iO
with those salmon.
CHI77 JUSTICE rJ kZ 13; Vo-.a 10 you think it would be just as easy . matter to restock the Fraser Biver as it was the Colombia?
MR. SARRIH: Ho, sir.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAS25: Wouldnt be quite so easy?
MR, ,ARKI1; JTo, sir.
Cl IMF JRST1CE KAZKJF: Why not.
MR. R.'AIM'MRM: Because, s.s I say, I think- there is a difference in the variety of the salmon, and there is this condition that alvvajs exists You have lvery yesr to contend more end more with civilisation, which throws another factor into the game -
CHI :F JUSTICE EA.Z.rSB: Still having re pa rd to all those facts and a la those circumstances, X understand, Mr. warren, your .judgment is th. t you might f- irly expect that in three or four cycles, the big year will be restored to what it was in 1913?
MR. <ARTISR: I dont know I would say 1913, because that was suer a tremendous output that it may ho ve been away above the overage. You see we have had no series of figures to go by, by h oh aa coulG rtri?*ce a re. sonable avernge. For instance, the v ci on the coast this ye r has gone bo much above the general avwr e bn t I , ould not 'mow how much &'■ ore t at average the 191- season could he expected to be, but I would say that you coulR easily, or it is rw no table to suppose that you coaid re-^tooJc it to cort-M in y the atroru~e of the big years within a re sonable number of cycles, providing yo\i let the small47
fish stay*
1RF JUST I CM HA2£H: You could do that by this system by ich is proposed to let fifty per cent of the salmon get a; the river?
MB. v/AHP.EH: 1 think while it may not be as rapid, it is j st as satisfactory, ana much less expensive*
Cl.IMF JUSTICE KA&KH: Than what?
MR* (ARIaaH: Than the free closing.
CFI-F JCSTiCL BABEH: What is your opposition to the free closing?
IR3. .'ARMMRU: As I stated, my opposition to the free closing, is, tailing into consider ation all of the factors in the case.
CHIEF JUSTICE IIAZM: That is, the Tested interested?
MR. RARRh3f: Kot necessarily the vested interests. The Interests of the people who have their money in there, the interests of the e ..ploying class, the interest of the people who are actually crtoning c fish, the financial interests of the state, the interests of the people and the nterests of the taxpayers who are relying u on this ropert r for their legitimate returns.
Cl I IF .JUSTICE HAZM1J: You will admit, without hesitation,
Mr. Warren, that If you have longer prohibition of the catch for e. certain number of years that the river would be restored more r pidly than on the other ?
.HR. ARRKHs That is certain, 1 suppose; but at the same time there is an element that eaters into that. Nature made an-x ^
failure , or ai . not take advantage of all its o^.fortuities, be-
9
cau.ee it certainly never brought the lean years to the big years, so there must have teen a tremendous amount of waste in there, and there is no reason why we should sacrifice and turn everything over to them to do when we are net certain how they i.ill accomplish it* It is not re sonable; it is not good business CHI": F JUSTICE	: Do you ihihh, under the scheme proposed,
that fifty per cent of the salmon will get up the river?
MM. \iiRBhh: 1 think, that*-—yes, I do.
C,_i V JIM,ri'Ch HA2KM: Have you examined those figures ah eh have teen submitted here this morning,
MR. ARREU; He, I have not.
ChlKP X ST ICE LAZE?': So you not prepared, to speak with regard to them?
MR.	RM	:	Ho	,	sir.
CHIEF JCJSTICE RAZEE: Or, as to whether having regard to those
thirty
figures, which shews some	odd	per	cent of pa oh before
the .Riot of July, or before the 1st of August, having regard to those, would sh w 31 er cent of the pack before that, and sdd-inu to that the ^ack of the ther side of the internati nal boui.ary, and also cons .leering the number of fish, that escape on tctl sides, some must escepe, you have not considered whether in your opinion fifty per cent woi a actually get up or not
MIR. . AKhhiM J have net. I hove figured that there are means oi ' cicrminiufc t.ov. fifty p ...r ecnt couId be permi 11 e d to escape
;>r,oIt is only a question of figuring, drawing a dividing line, and estimating it.
CliliRF JuSTICL KAZEH: You think it could be figured out?
UR. AMRLK: I. do so. I wont say accurately, Mr. Justice, because you cant tell in any ye* r what the physical condition would be, but I think you can work it out to a re so nab1e average.
CHIEi? JVmtMCE MAZEI : And the different years the salmon might vary by a number of days*
M. RR.aRmRMM. That is possible.
CKIKJT JUSTICE HA2MN; And they do?
RMM RR^ri. To a certain extent. I think you have to ettrmine tR-e opposite curve on tn: t for as nany years ss you con go back in order to strike the reasonable avera ge.
CMiMM JUSTICE HAzm: Mhet were the purposes to be served, if the armg ent by which fifty per cent of the salmon are to be pe mitted to .get uo the river. What good purpose would then be served by not e tching salmon above Westminster bridge?
MR. ARR.O; As I ssid, in explaining it from my standpoint, alone, I aont know tM.-t there would be any good purposes served.
Th; t ib, you are working on an absolute and definite theory-------------
Cii 1R ? JbSTICK IILZSN:	robably cause irritation, and serve
no good purpose even.
Mu. . ARRMU *. You are working on an absolute theory that you ore goin to let fifty per cent escape. How, it dont make any uifferenoe where you catch the other fifty . er cent that I can see.CMIFF JUSTICE HA23K; Neither do I.
MR. ;•RREU; You are simply going to the certain proposition of letting bo many fish pass through to the spawning ground*
CHI. I JUSTICE HASZh: This proposal, I understand, is based on the idea thst fifty per cent of the fish are to get to the spawning beds?
Ra. .,RRR3H• That’s the idea exactly.
CKIMF JUSTICE HAZ33: fnd if fifty er oent could get to the s.awiing beds, It could not make any difference where the others are caugl t?
MR. ■jARTiEIT; Not tht t I can see.
Ci I .I JU3TICF E A&MM: 'Ah.et.her they are caught below Westminster bridge or above.
MR. .7AER2H: No.
MR. McCORB: Or whether you have a weekly closed season or
not.
CHI RK JUSTICF EAZ3K: This is all based upon that Ki eory?
ME. .vARRS : Yes, sir.
CHIR'F JIM TICE FAS'SN: I am not expressing any opinion about It one ray or the other, but trying to get at the basis, and the basis is, that if you get fifty per cent through to the spawning beds, you need not bother your head about the other.
MR. ,< ARREH ; Yes, sir.
CM IMF Jl’ TIC HA" EH: and that Is exactly vhat this is based upon?
i.{R. MRRiiN: Yes, sir.GJM a JU Pi Oh UaZZUi So whether they fcatch them above Westminster Bridge or below it, does nut make any difference0
MR- WARHR2I• Yes, sir.
1,1R. S.MSMT:	;ho	proposed the Westminster Bridge proposition?
m. iRF :z%: Well, I think that came from the gentlemen representing the Canadian side; it certainly did not come from any one on our side. It was an offer on their part.
CHIIf MU STICK HAZE3: What I think about it is this, that thet would siiAp; y produce a certain amount of irritation, without accomplishing any good « hat ever, as far as 1 can understand it now, speaking entirely subject to correction*
MR. McCOFM : Mo .id it not, Mr. Justice, be	necessary to	have
your clofeed sea son extended	farther on up	the	river. You	would
have to have a graduated closed seas .n beyond the lew Westminster Bridge, X think;but that is a matter that cou;d be worked out.
i-.ww JooalCf HA2MM; That is, worked all out by scientific
men.
a: R-hl r iX a.TLMM. R*LM: Isnt that part of the means of getting fif~ -y tar cenv, the closing; above Mestminster bridge.
Mf. /ARMiMJ; I think that is subject to being worked out, Mr. Cejia.tary. As I a..plained,	I considered	it h	magnanimous	offer
oi the part of the Canadian	people.
Cl « JMSTICR II/MMRM The i iea is to fix a closed season, end during thit oloseo season, fifty par cent of the salmon ao up <wMM That is what we are arranging for.
Chi_f JUiflCE HkZZti; Then you close your season *men fifty per
Vi n O
ioocent ha e gone up. That is the idea underlying all this?
MR. 1RRSS: Yes.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAS MM: .• ,nd when this fifty per cent has gone up, that is sufficient to seed the beds to such an extent that •vith this occurring year after year, in a comparatively few years you will have the river restored to its former condition.
MR. VARKRM: R.ithin what we believe to be a reasonable length of time.
Cl.IMF JUSTICE HAZE13: Yes. That is the theory on which this is based. I am expressing no opinion abo t its merits one way or the ther, but want to get at the underlying theory of it.
SMCRE2 RY REDFIMLI-: It is your understanding, is it not, Mr* >arren, that this wouRd require legislation.
iSR. AARK EH : TJndoub t edly.
SRCRMT/RY ELI) FI ELD ; On the art of the state of Washington,
Congress
and osc-ibly on the part of the SL2ixfcg: of the United States.
MR. CARIt. fJ:	'ossibly.
SECR.STAay RJRDFI MLL: It is your understanding that this National commission to be appointed jointly, as you speak of, should be composed of salaried o ficers?
MR. Y.ARREH: why, I have not gone into that matter at all.
I think that is a matter for the Commission to determine.
SMC MTAR'Y EELFIRLT: Is there a precedent for the appointment of officers of this character by the Federal government end by Stete gov rnment acting jointly.
MR. .ARRMR;: I dont Mnow; but the idea I had in maiding that sug-gestion was that it was undoubtedly required, both of them to
protect
agree, and it ould therefore ±xim both of their interests.
I think: in a matter of this kind it often becomes necessary to do a great many things, and you can find United States authority for it by some means or other.
SECRlaTaRY RUDFIKLT: But the force of the suggestion lies in the appointment, rather than the method of a pointment; lies in the eo-oper.tion of the two authorities.
MR. wARRKM: I want to say in a ease of that kind that both the interests of the Federal government are protected, and the interests of the state are protected, and as a matter of represent tives tl ey cert inly will have to agree, and therefore, they will not surely be both protected.
SECRETARY REa.FIELD: As I recall your suggestion, it was that both of these two should be appointed by both the appointing parties?
MR. WE® 21: Ab so lut e ly.
SECRETARY BEDFIELD: That is to Lay, that would give to the Fedor: 1 government a veto over an appointment made by the Governor or the State, and vice versa?
MR. ft ARR K: Absolutely
SECRETARY REDFIELD: They have got to agree ?
MR. ARREH: Yes, sir.
SECRETARY REDFIEhD: But is it not the fact that any form of appointment which provided for actual cooperation would be astisfactory?MR. RARR1B: By the two others?
SMCR2TARY REDFISLD: fhe two others.
MR. MAKREI; Yes.
SECRETARY REBFXELD: And what you are aiming at is the point of cooperation, and the fact of cooperation?
MR. WARREH: Should be brought about, yes, sir.
SMC 1'TAaY RMDFXMLD; Yes, that is the core of the matter.
MR. WARRE1: Yes, sir.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZES: This provides, this secti n 4, that the Commission should be required to inspect the Fraser River water shed, and perform such other functions as may be necessary and be imposed upon them. Imposed on them by whom?
MR. wARREM: V ell, I presume that any such agreement was entered into---really my idea of an agreement, and I dont Mnow exactly how the Constitution of the United States, or how the Supreme Court of the United States, might construe a matter of that kind. It comes under thet clause of the Constitution, undoubtedly thst prohibits the entering into any agreement, or any agreement, ith any other State or any other foreign power. I dont know how far that goes. If it should be construed, in the same way as the c com i*,ct which was entered Into by the states of Oregon and Washing ion relative to the boundary waters of the Columbia river, It seems to m that ‘,*«as the feasible way of going at it; there is, the agreement could be entered into between the province of British Columbia and the st te of Washington, which would be approved by the Dominion Government and si so by the UnitedStates Government.
CHIEF JUSTICE liAZM: It would not be between the Province of British Columbia; it would be entered into with the Federal authorities of Canada; they are the ones who would have to mkke the agreement.
MR. RAREEH: I dont hnow what it is on your side oR the line.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZi'I: That is not- what I ashed you. This refers to ’perRorm sueh functions as may be imposed uponthem.*	I supp-
ose that you mean as may be imposed upon them by the Treaty or whatever it is?
MR. WARRES: Yes, sir*
Chi F JUSTICE HAZEH: That would have to be in the agreement?
MR. .VARRES : Yeo, s ir.
Cl.IEF JUSTICE fiASEI: How, your proposal there is a commission
two
of four shall b. appointed./to be appointed by the government of Canada, t nd two by the United States?
MR. WARREJT: Yes, sir.
CHI-RF JUSTICE BAZEMT: In such way as may be agreed upon, and those four, including the two appointed by the United States, it shslL be their duty to inspect the Fraser River watershed, and perform such other functions as may be imposed upon them?
MR. aARREih AnythMhg the agreement calls for.
ChlEF JUSTICE HA2i£U: That is, that the two gentlemen appointed by the United States shall come into Canada and Candian soil and ins ect the Frazer River water shed ?
MR. *. ARR2M: Yes, sir, that is the Idea.Ci.IMF J SRICr HAST H: I am not saying that may not be eminently
proper azid right; there may be precedent for it, fhere may be for something
precedent/very similarto this in the constitution of International aterways Commission, a commission consisting of three gentlemen a pointed by the Government of the United States and three gentlemen appointed by the Government of the Dominion of Canada, who meet and consider questions in regard to the international boundaries that flo?/ from one country into the other. There may be precedent that may be of importance and of value in considering thi3 uestion.
RR. RARE a ;X light say Mr. Justice, in connection with the broader interpretation of what would constitute the Fraser River Waterway, I would say it went further than that and "involved all of the waters within the terms of the agreement, so it would mean also the coming over to the Uni ted States*
CEIl.J? JUSTICE EAZ2K: That is very important.
OR.. ARMMj: Yes, sir, it would be necessary for the inspection ox v hat ever might be on this side.
CM I M JUSTICE HAZ33: it would be, not only the Fraser River, but it would be the oh ole international boun ary?
HM. e.-ARREK: Yes, sir. 'ossibly that term was not correctly used.
SMCRETaRY HEDFIELI: It was not made to be used technically.
MR. 'ARRKH: Ho, it was not. It was to be used In the broad sense of nieening the entire water that ms within the co n~ templated terms of this contract.CKIMF JUSTICE KA2SB; Yes.
sir. fd'UiiB; V/ith reference to the statement of captures submitted by Mr. Lowman, covering the dates from July 20th to the ,51st, it would seem to me to be an eminent advantage if that statement could be extended, say, to cover up to the 10th of August, or practically the 16th of August, so as to enable us to see clearly-----
MR. MeCEOBD: The statement furnished by the aeific-.srerican Fisheries contains the daily catch each day during the year.
RR. FOUMM : Lh, that would be all right.
MR. M'CoRD: So that will filed, and you will find that very complete from 1904 do van, taking it d y bp day, beginning with the first cstch and from there on.
MR. HAIL" Y: The statement of the the Alaska ackers as filed with the committee has thst seme statement.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZES: Has thst been filed?
MR. M'CORD: That ms furnished to the Washington Fi heries association by myself and MT.K, dley yesterday, and they have it do^n there n@rw.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZS1I: Will they be kind enough to file it with
us?
MR. M'CORD: We will see it is filed here with you gentlemen.
MR. LOmMIAN; I want to say that every one of those were filed by daily ports with our association and the acifie-American, or the Alaska ackers, are no exceptions to the others.
Those are tabulations made from com .lete <3 ily returns made to us
R69by ail of the canneries there nassecl.
LR CE.MT. .. Y ~MM JTaliD: When shall we have the t statement?
HR. M'C.HI: this afternoon•
3 RGRM2 ARY C. a. jL* X WU .>a 1 Horn, let me ask for certain further information. Mr* McCord and Mr.Lovman; Can yon furnish us, so that upon our return to se. ttle at the end of a period of a roximately ten ays the following information* It is meant in each case to refer only to the interests concerned with so eke; e sai:non, or to so much of the ntereats as are concerned with oar eookeye salmon. The comission would, like to have the number of canneries involved-—1 am speeding now of the American side only— the vuuiber of employes, and if there are both sexes employed, the number of e oh, the investment in those c.nneries, the amount substantially in «*agea paid to employes, and the amount of taxes paid.
MR. LOaiOUa: I can £ive it all to you in fifteen minutes.
It ifc in the report of the Fish Commissioner to the Governo®n of the st^te for each year past.
&3&RKTARY RED FI aLD: In any way that is satisfactory to yon.
MS. , .a	;	t	is	onlp	five	blocks	away*
SaC 1 T .MY hRDFIMLD: any way that is satisfactory to you. I
o	ld rather not, if you 7lease, make it a subject for further ciecussion at this moment, tut if it I& possible for you to place it before us so that v.e may have it while we are away and then consiaea it n our trip up north and la: .1, then we would find it oi value and of use on our return here. We dont wantit for immediate use, but for future use.
HR. LGM/IAM: Would you ; ike to take it with you, Mr. Secretary?
SECRETARY R&DFIELD: We would, if you please.
MR. LOViMAH: Will you, Mr. Darwin, furn sh your annual report to the Commission showing these things?
SMCRM3? RY HER-FIMLD: low, let me make it clear, that the annual report that gave totals would not be of much help to us :e want to get at the facts as they particularly relate to this sockeye salmon industry. In other words, if we got the general facts as regards all salmon or all fish, it might mislead us. I want to know intelligently, what the interests involved inthis sockeye salmon are, just as clearly as we can get it, and I dont want you to feel that you are held down to dollars and cents, even to hundreds; anything which is a picture of the fact is sufficient to our purpose.
MR. LI'CvRD: It is almost impossible to distinguish and separate them.
SECRETARY REDFIMLD: I realise that.
MR. M’CORh: You have canneries and fishing interests so closely i lentified that if you dont have the sockeye you cant operate with the other.
MR. LQ»VJAH: Me will get for you, Mr. Secretary, possibly under your latter statement, not be able to do it so quickly, but we will get for you our construction of what you have just asked for, and explain the me thou by which ve arrive at the con-clusi ns we t rn into you.SECRETARY R: DflJU);	Yes.	want	to	know	what the sockeye
s	1 non means now in a minimum way, and	in	a	business	wey, taken
by itself alone, and, as for e s possible, detached from everything else. If, ho-ev„r, that involves other things necessarily, as ;ir. McCord suggests, let us have that fact too, so we may form some estimate of its relative value as nearly as we can, and ten
d: ys. hence, when v.e oo me back----1 realise it will be difficult,
and dont feel obliged to gat down to dollars and cents upon it, but give us a picture.
MR. LC R£AM: Me will	do so, but not	like	we	could	the annual
report, within the next	fe- minutes.
SMCR3T.RRY REMFXEII : Mo, I dont see how you csn unless you are keeping in the Ire seoar te account of costs of your industry which I dont expect you do.
MR. M'CORD: I suppose, Mr* Secretary, you will consider a private record in this case, as the official reports of the Fish Commissioner of the stsfce of Washington?
SECREf RY RrMFISIP: Oh, yes.
? MR. M'CGRD; If not, we would lihe to file them with you so as to m ke them a part of the records in this case.
5:	S SCR SI RY RJaDFIFLf: r/ell, v*e shall, of course, want to have t
those.
I,[R. M'C RD: Anu also a number, particularly the annual copies of ,he acific Fisherman, who keeps a tabulation of the various packs, and the ouantities and selling prices, and all of those things, and it is of such general use on the sound end on the
A= ^ O r-M i faPacific Coast, and Alaska, that it almost becomes an official document I t inh that vsould be usefal* T have not heretofore referred to them, but we now offer to introduce them ss a part oi the record in the case.
SMCRET .RY REIFIKLD: We shall be very glad to have them.
CLOSING STAK^NT OF tBE HOSOR/ BLE rILLIAM C . RUFIELD.
£ i,CRET'RY RI'DFI1XD: In closing, as I think ve may soon for this particular hearing, the discussion of the Fraser River problem, rior to considering it in Y&ncouver and reconsidering here, or considering it further upon our return here, of which, by the way, Rue n tice will be given, the Commission have to point out that we must look at, as we began by saying, is the general interest of the people of the United States, present and future, and the articular interest of the canner and the fishermen, is only a portio of thet problem, and by no means the whole of it.
I hcve been s little surprised that one oint has not been urged by your gentlemen, which seems to me to have a great deal of force. It woul 3. h:.ve force upon ray mind until it was explained. I t ank it v,o .Id have bearing upon the method to be used in dealing .vith tills problem, as to vhethor it were ossible now, whether public opinion in the country at large would justify now any immediate and material diminution in food supplies. The canned salmon contains in portable form what is supposed to be one of the most oily concentrated foods thet is produced. It is a
n o ifvary doubtful qaestion.vshether, even for conservation on our part, 1 would like Hr Babcock to consider, a very doubtful question even for conservation, public opinion would approve of a material stopping of an existing supply. In other words, the immediate emand of the country for food is really insistent, and I t us change the venue and go off ...omemhere else and think of something else for the moment-
Suppose Ry diminishing considerably the supply for wheat in the United States we could insure ten years hence for a ten times as much wheat as ae ev r had■ .ould public opinion justify dimishing to any material degree for that reason the supply 01 heat in thi country? How, that principle seems to me to have som e bearing* I am not prepared to say what, here#
.To, , of course, the reverse is a Iso true, whether public opinion .vould justify our so treating our wheat supply now we are certain not to have any ten years hence. rfhat is the reverse of it. I mention it, so that you can see that the problem is & very lerge one, and has to he considered frok the very Itrge question and view point of the co ntry. as regards the terminations of the work of this Brty, yon may have noticed that the official acts of both governments are necess.: rily of a so-called emergency cher cter. What has bten done both by the government of the United States and by that of the Dominion of Canada is , on the very face of it, done t& a war measure. it is my own belief, it is the earliest hope of the resident himself, the Secretaryof State, that	when brethren seem	to dwell together	in unity	that
they ai 11 find	it sc desirab e to	continue to dwell	together
in unity, that	nothing thereafter	will ever tear them apart.
think I c~aa sty for the recent	administration at	least that	it
is not their intention ta t o shall ever go b:. ok. in the matters aIre r/ settled thro gh the of.orts of the Commission to what I regard
myself----1 cont ' ant to say childish, but as the childlike days of the
oast----brethren of the same race and of the same language, and of
the s.me traditions, stood across an imaginary line, and for a hundred and ode years made Races at one another (applause).
The Commission will now take under consider:: tion the matters relating to }ort privileges on the "acific Coast.
FORTH R STATSHE&P BY CGMHAHMft MILLER FRESMAS.
CCHMAF'RSR FREEMAK: Before you und ert ke that, might I say just one vord, and then I will leave* I would just like to make one sup rssti n to thi body, and to you, Mr, Secretary, and that is the question of r- very thorough curvey of all the salmon streams of the acific Coast and that the work of investigation b. much broader, . nd th t it be put upon a thoroughly scientific basis.
I believe in 1910, 1 areared before you making that same request , believing that, as in all othtr lines of industry, that after all truly scientific investigation nrnst be the basis upon ..hi oh yo. shal 1 oper te f r the {maintenance and preservation of that industry. I merely make that suggestion»SMCRR^T.RRY R R)FI1, wp ; j am very glad to have Mr.Freeman *s suggestion* You are of course familiar with the progress that has been made in Alaska in that connection?
GwMj All aft PMHSMAM; I am very familiar, but it really is not enough *
SMCME2APY MI; DPI ML!: Yes, I Quite agree with you. Dr. Smith Justifies my saying, and authorises me in saying, Mr. freeman, that we are ready so far as th survey in Alaska in concerned, to cm loy every compct nt man thu t we can lay our hands upon to do that work.
CD>vMRMfMMR FRMMMAS: I wont add to it, except to call attention to th's fact, that often on this very problem that you are working n
on on \Lget Sound, we have had our surveys made-----------1 mean this in
the very broadest sense-------not by the American Government, so much
as it has been cone by the Canadian government. How, it is all riphe, Jit aorks cut, and it has resulted most fortunately in having ;.ne moot valuable information by both Mr .Babcock nd Dr. Gilbert.
1 would like m at earnestly to s. e encouraged the continuance of such vorl as Dr. Gilbert has done, and others who devote their entire time to the specific problem , and certainly the value of the industry is sufficiently great that men of those talents,
:nen of thoae abilities, who have a leaning in that direction, shall be so employed, end if it can be extended in that way, I think you ..ill find that it will obviate such problems as this in the future, and may save you in other streams wh&t pou now have beforeyou in the Fraser.
MR. SMI'PH: I would just like to state for the information of this conference, and the Commission members, that the Bureau of Mishtries is most desirous of keeping- constantly at work on selmon ,)roblems of the acifie Cos fit, the most competent men that may be ob ained for the purpose. We have made overtures to hr. Cilbert, and we are prepared to keep him at work on this problem in Alaska and in the Macific Coast for the balance of his natural life.
COM AKDMR VRE'EMAl; That is fine.
secretary redfi eld * I ?/ill say, gentlemen, that while the subject has not come up here as yet, it is of very great interest in Boston, not as having any relation to salmon, but as having relst f ion at large, of which that is apart, that is is the believe of the Department of Oomrr'erce that the market for fish foods in this country has but begun, that we ©re not a forward oeople in the consumption of iish food, but 8 rather backward one* Our consumption of fish per capita is about eighteen pounds, I think, prior to the war; that of Canada, as I remember it, is twenty-nine ;ou:icis per capita* that of Great Britain was fifty-eight pounds per ca ita. It is one of the great untouched business enterprises of the country, strange as it may seem, that of dowolo ing a demand for fish food rmohg our population at large.
The vale of the country as a whole is, with exceptions, to eat fish once a eek on Friaay.	fhis coming up, the Government
, ^ > 7
& i Iwishes they would have fish twice a week on Tuesdays and Fridays.
In Greet Britain they have fish every day in the week in every
average faintly* Great Britain, with a consumption of three times own per
as large as their/capita, is endeavoring there to multiply that by four. If we reached the present rate of consumption of Crest Britain in this country, it means something like four billion pounds more of fish par annum. In other words, we multiply our present industry by three, add two times to it*
ursuant to the suggestions I have just made to you, which : e recognized to exist by the fish dealers on the Atlantic Coast, who are found actively engaged in pushing the business, and yet, as they themselves would believe, admit not really conscious of its gve t possibilities. We found them, I may state, sending fresh fish from Boston to Denver, and in quantities regularly to St.Louis. he then and there told them that we would put a man on in the Bureau of Fisheries whose sole duty it wo Id be to pres oh
the gospel to e... l more fish at Government expense *-----not to eat more
fish at Government expense, but to preach eating more fish would
be at the Government expense* ursuant to that promise, that man
State
has b* en employed. I believe he is now at vorh in the £X£|r of Missouri, ve put him into the state of Missouri as a central loint of the nation, a point which was at once approximately centr- 1 and with a large population. But I thinkthe suggestion male to than, as we are making to you, not indeed as regards the s salmon inaastry which is one of the prett a ad highly organizedindustries of the country, but as regards other industries on the coast which are capable in the fisheries line, of large ex ension. We ere quite prepared at Government expense to ut men a:; work: art.ching the gospel to eat more fish; no partieu sr fish, particular man's fish, but fish, The result of that work is very sraasing. In this particular form it is new, but for two years past, as an indication of possibilities at a cost of $£0,000 the Bureau of Fisheries has introduced and placed upon the market i .id caused to be act sj-.lly consumed something over ao,000 tons of _ish food, no .ne of ahieh up to two years aga, had ever been eat an in this count x*y at all* and you have u- on the acifi c Coast here, unused fishes, untouched fish resources of which a vantage might be taken, is being taken, but can be taken more .argely in the Bureau of fisheries is quite prepared to co-operate. The G vrnaent expects to help the thing along continuously to operate, at least as long as Dr„ Smith and 1 have anything to £ y about it, or i have, and we want you to feel that the Government through the Bureau of Fisheries is not merely concerned in the birth of the fish in the hatchery, and the conservation of the fish while it has life, but in his selling at a good rofit tie price to every one, including the consumer, when he is dead. That s ems to cover him from birth until death, and p to the time of actual consumption. I want to say in considering the matter of ort rivileges, that we shall give the whole & afternoon to that subject, nothing else will be taken up this afternoon but thet uestion of rt privileges. We will have to ask t at statements on it be made brief, and it be confinedif ossible to statements of fact. Argument is hardly needed if facts are presented. Me will take that subject up further upon our return from the Sorth, and give to it a larger share of time than at this particular moment has been possible* It therefore should be understood clearly that what ever is done on thst theme to- ay may he of only a preliminary character, and that ample time will be allowed for it on our return . fhe Commission will adjourn at 5 'P.M., in order that we may, Chief Justice Bazen a no ay self, we may adjourn about a Quarter of 5, and iotioe is hereby given to that effect, in order that M iei Justice Eazen and myself will have the privilege of the fcrtuaate and very courteous invitation of Mr*Miller to talk to the men of his training school this evening. I thank you &r. Freeman.
I am just informed by my friena and colleague, Mr. Chief Justice a sen, the t there are several persons here who wish to make further statements before the morning session closes on the subject of the salmon and the method of ... eal ng with their conservation, the sockeye salmon. I ohall be very glad to give these gentlemen an opportunity now to be heard.
The ses ion will continue until 1 o'clock for t :at nirpose.
Is there anybody here who is desirous of making a statement?
HR. BITRRY : Yes.FUBTHER f-;TATEXEBT BY MR. FR'AMM. BERRY *
. E MRY: Mr. Secretary, in my judgment I thin: the ground is retty ell covered, and there is not very anoh that I could add to what 1 said yesterday.
.3' 0 ETARY REDRMELD: You have n ard this memorandum read this ■ aruing Are you in accord with the views therein expressed?
MR. BMMMY: 1 am, Mr.Secretary, 1 was of the same opinion I mad yesterday, that during those days fifty per cent of the fish will never see the spawning grounds, and 1 am of the same opinion I was yesterday.
SECRETARY RIDPISuR; Then your views upon the subject are the ssme s those you expx*essed yesterday?
MR. BERRY: Yes, sir.
Oil IMF JUSTICE HA2RMK: lid you wish to make another statement,
Mr. Berry?
jtfR. EMRRY : I will gladly answer questions.
SMCR mcTARY RErFIMLl: I will Just ask you one question; What is your opinion as to the totel prohibition of the soekeye fishery for a number of y.ars?
UR* BLRRY: Of the total prohibition?
S^Ca T ,MY RMDFIhLD: Yes, or the prohibition of the ca thhing?
Mi. r.R..aY: Ry view Vrouc- be thet in or Iter to rehabilitate the fish, trie only way I would see would be closing down entirely the sockeye season. That is the only way the fish will Me rehabilitated. You may keep up the industry for a few years, and they will keep on decreasing all the time under an) closed St son whether it be ten or fix teen days Du e s that answer jour question70
opinion prevails largely among the fisherman along the coast?
MR * BEKRY: In general.
SMORMTAPY RFMFI.MLB: In gen rsl. You think that is the view of the fishermen in general, do you?
ME. B RMY: Yes, sir; some of us fishermen have watched these runs f r the past twenty years, as I stated yes tar day; and the reason thpt the pack 'ms not aslarge as they have been in the last few years is because there was not enough gear in the water to crtch these fish; in fact, the market did nt aem&nd it.
I remember veil back in 1905, I think it was the big year, when the purse seiners, of which there was not very meny at that time, probably twenty-five and thirty, went out and could have loaded a boat inside of one hour, Vat there was no demand; the people who bought o r fish were packers and owned a lot of Rish Irwps themselves, and in many cases we only received 'probably from two to five cents apiece. There was no use practically for us to capture them. Then the fish traps won d be filled with fish, thwt these people had plenty of fish of their own, without buying any. But as they came along to 1909 and 1913, the n Mb.r of urse seines had increased. That had practically reduced the catches of tho other classes of roar; that these same people in ore or to make the ir pack, hed to buy our fish, and thr.t is hhy the packs are nuch greater or probably as large now a3 they were twenty years ago because there is more fish canned :.n more fish ©ought, and more fish consumed. Fifteen or
twenty years ago, I dent really think one-third or probably not
282over tw nty-five per ent of the total run of Xigeb Sound was ever caught, but it got to its spawning grounds, I fisted on the Fraser river when it required only about half an hour to make a set in front j»f the cannery, and deliver a few fish to the cannery because they could not handle any more and let the others go on to the s: awning grounds. But the conditions are very different and we fish every minute of the day that we can find with all classes of gaar, and there is p enty in the water of auget Sound ae wellas Mraser liver. ..nd i think the only salvation for the restoring of 30c..eye salmon, ot thet I recommend t..is at the present time,
but i think the only salavation for restoring of the sockeye s salmon will be the closing dovn of sockeye salmon fishing for a certain peri d of time for the total season,
SEC MTARY EIRDFi ELD; I did not want to interrupt, nor do I no?/ ant to interrupt your line of thought, but I .A.nted to ask, howe ver before you sat down, what your view point is on the s ggestion mace in the memoranda suggesting distances, the regulation of distances betaken gear, not only of the same class, but of different classes. Would you oppose a regulati n of the distance within .hieh a purse seine should not operate as related to some other apparatus, or to another urse seine.
MM. LRMRY; ,/ell, o would gladly submit to any restriction thet the other cl< sses of gear conform with.
sMC MTaMY IMRji'lM^'R: I am assuming of course th& t it would be general and e uitoble. At present is there any r emulation ro^srding the distance within which you must or must not fish?MR. BERRY: At resent we havs laws in this state covering laces where we cannot o erate with traps &ud purse seines as veil. A certain distance, tor instance, say from the mouth of a river, we are kept two to three miles away from the month of a river.
SECRETARY REDFISLD: Jut is there an:y regul tion which permits you to go up alongside of a trap?
KM. I'MRPvY: It is not, and it would be very impossible to c o nf c rm wit h it.
SECRETARY MICDFIELM; Is there any regulation as regards the distance between your apparatus and another apparatus.
MR. BER?Y:THere is not.
SECRETARY R 'D FI ELD: Wo regulation of that kind.
2£R. BERRY : So*
SECRETARY R M FIR LI’: So that it is conceivably true, is it vM, thst you might cover the whole superficial area of a channel v/ith ^urse seines?
MR. BFMvRY: Wherever the fish are.
SECRETARY REDFIELD: Yes, if the fish were there.
}>IR. BERRY: Well, it is a veil known fact, Mr * Secretary, that the traps at present are covering the best and practically all of the fishing grounds which are considered to be the fishing ground s.
DR. SHIT] : How do you exolain, Mr. Berry, that the purse seines have been cstching sixty-five per cent of the salmon taken in u^et Sound waters?24R. BhaRT; aell, at the present time they are a considerably larger number of purs seines than there 1 ave been in former years.
I remember in the. year 1903, probably when there ere only ten or fifteen , and it kept on inc easing gradually until it £ot somewhere to about four hundred or some last year, and that accounts for it. Furthermore, they are getting better kinds of boats, larger sized, and etter equipped, and go after the fish rruch stronger, because thei’e is good demand for the fish, and the prices are very go.,1, and that accounts for it, and in the former years hen there were no purse seines or only a few, the traps used to cmteh about 98 per cent of the fish, and the purse seines about £ per cent* because of the few they did catch there was no sale for them. We got the boats to catch them, and course, in many esses, the traps have the first whack at them, as the Americans here have the first hack at the sockeyes as compared with British Columbia.
MR. F UND; Rhy would it be impossible to keep a certain distance away from the fixed appliances in making a cast of a purse seine?
MR. B MRY: Because we must follow the school of salmon where-evr they are, and we dont consider them caught until they
are in the trop .
MR. FCUR;D:If you are fishing outside the three mile limit, as they do with purse seines in some districts, you would not follow a school of fish inside of it. Why would it be any less possible
285for you to keep a certs In distance away the fixed engine that is insi e?
i,lR. EERFY: If we did, the tide would probably settle right on that trap anyway.
SECRETARY REDFISLX;: Then you would have to stop under the regulation. You cou d, oouldnt you?
MR. FCUID; That is after the purse is set. That would not be casting.
MR. BRRRY: Dont you think, in your own judgment, the purse seiner is jest as ouch entitled to the fish as any other class of gear before any man eon say it is his fish and osught in his trap?
SECRETARY EEDRIELI): The point of view is public all over the Jnited States, and not of arjy particular interest and the people of the United States seem to feel their want their fish supply continuously. How, the present situation seems to be, as things are going, they wont have it very long ; and some boady somewhere either the public themselves, or some one, have got to get along without it, or someone had got to catch less, or for a time forego some of their erfeetly proper and natural travel for the good of everybody concerned.
MR. B'REY ; Yes, that is true.
there are
CRM?AMY REDFIILD: low, that being the case, since/certoin liaitations ol distance between say, let us say between traps, between oets and other things, in various parts of the country, what imnroporiety can there be in saying that the purse seine shall not operate within one thousand feet of such anothera >ar tus,or maybe twelve hundred or may be eight hundred, some distence, what improperiety is there in that, when, do nt you cea , for a time which we all hope will come when we get so many back, we would have to send you as an embassy to get them, so the water vo id be free, as for navigation?
MR. BERRY: Mr. Secretary, in answer to that question, I would say this*. That would simply destroy the purpose of the purse seine and would not benefit the propagation nor the increase of salmon aayway.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZEN: You say if a purse seine did not get them, a trap would?
MR. BERRY: Yes, sir.
CHIEF JUtTICE HAZES: They are bound to be killed anyway?
M . BERRY : They are bound to be killed anyway*
CHIEF JUSTICE RAZES: And you are as free to kill them as the trap ?
MR. BERRY: Yes, sir,
CHII2F JUSTICE HA ZEN: Now, isnt that absolutely correct, that you chase fish right straight into the trap with the purse seine ? Of course, you are going to get the fish or they go into the trap. But suppose you could not go withih a certain distance of a tr p, arent there a lot of fish that go outside of the trap and escape? In other words, arent there a lot of fish that would not be Co ught if you were not perm tted to go so near the trap ?
28776
MR. BEERY: As I told you before, Mr. Justice, the trap cover the best grounds; and there are only certain grounds, and you have an area, of one hundred and fifty miles, and probably five miles of that ares is better fishing ground than thr rest of the one hundred and fifty and the fish runs with the tide; and at certain laces and they strike at those particular places, and you can make up your mind that those p rticular places, where the fish do strike, the fish is there, and if m keep away from those fishing groun s, you might as wellprohlbit us fishing on Ruget Sound or anywhere else.
SECRETARY REDFIELD: We seem to gather you want to get close to the traps on the grounds that is the best fishing?
iiR. I EERY: Th at is the best fishing ground, and the only fishing ground?
SECRETARY REDFIULD: The only fishing ground?
ICR. BRPJRY: Yes.
SECRETARY REDFIILD; Then the idea seems to be that the trap is going to take some and the purse seine must come and take all the rest?
Ml. EMRRY; lio, v.e take so ae and they ake what is left.
SiM ETARY RSaFIJSLD: And the net result is that the ublic gets left, doesnt it, because the business is going to the dogs?
ITov , that is just exactly the attitude which it seems to us cannot
continue c. n ot continue because if it does you are all
going to be out of business; there wont be anything else. Inother wlrds, it cent be the ease the traps get some and you take t.e rest, or that you take some and the traps get the rest, because if that ^oes on there wont be anything left for you''
That is just as clear as the nose on your face.MK. K/tTO:	1;n't it also a perfectly fair proposition
ah ,t as the trap is a secondary fishing engine and cannot he moved and must wait until the fish come to it, that it should receive a certain amount of protection in its fishing as 70n are urging lor the purse seine in its, saying that the purse seine people move from place to place and can go right up to the heart or -entrance to the trap? It strikes me that //hat you are urging has in view only one side of the industry,, when the industry is being carried on legitimately.
Mi.. BVRMRY:	I aould like to answer that ^n this way,
th. t ou must note that the trap is stationary and it is th-.re sometime from two to six or seven months, it is never ta'ren out M the water. Some are there only two months, some three, four, five and six or seven. Than again it fishes every hour of the day and night, regardless o weather or regardless of tide. The purse seine is different. If it is rough weather we can't be there; if the current is too strong we can't get out fish, and our actual time we do put in in fishing is th ti	ting fish. If
a school of ish she.*3 up, corralling those fish, ta&es be-
, I
raahe a set, ind during all that tine, while we are in the act of nuking the set, pulling out these nets, our net does not fish at all, it is just th time Then we are malcing the circle md corrallinp these fish. After our net is in the .water once i/e stop fishing, so 1 consider e make five or six setsa day. I aw perfectly frank and want to go on record and say this, that our seine at no time in one day fishes over one or on hour .and h ;lf, while a trap fishes twenty-four hours in a day.
"P.. VOU M):	That	-ould be perfectly clear if there
were an eqaal number of traps,, or a relative number traps And purse seines, but keeping in view that the number of purse mcine.-,-, can be increased to any number* you way have one we seine cast now and &no
1 ily lire cnt the efficiency*
MM. PMRKKY:	1	/ould	like to answer that in this *?ay,
jUSl	.	es	ft
but tPv;y are net fished for one particular reason, and that is this, that one company o ms in one line, one stretch of fishing grounds, five or six different locations, vhich are 241)0 fe t a pa ’t. They don't have to fish but one,, and they have got an area of a mile of those locations prohibiting
,	a:;	trap	in	rent	-
hem so Rhov are perfectly protected all around. They take up two r three locations, which :eans a mile in front of the t raj , b\ t .hay don't fish them,, bee .use the law of this state Mon'- compel wa :;o fish more than one in four years, and ,'hon Mw;y do drive it once in fou years it is just enough to Ma! e or a .r two fish out and that covers it. And I think h .t if all the lova'-iens here, all the licenses, die Pish Commi ioner oual bring the record of ail of the trap licenseson Pugofc Sound you will find there are a good many more trap licenses on Puget Sound than are purse seines* And 1 rould cay there Mas been a reduction of purse seines from four hundred : nd thi ay-s oven t.o a;; roaciraately a hundred or a h’ adred and fifty or t >o hundred right now, and I am perfectly p-'o serin s y ing thare must be five or six huto&red traps in on Puget Sound.
:	would i	m-
tion of the r almon supply if, *s you t?eei to irishf all of these trap net locations were fished every year? You seem to regard that as an undesirable situation that all of these trap net sites that ha3 beon licensed are not actually fished in a riven season. What is your point there?
T,B. PMKRY:	Well, that point	is this:	If they can
citch	jU.ot in many	fish in one trap	there is	no need of
driving two or three. 7>oes that answer your question?
DR. SMITE:	Hardly. Your point is that their traps
don1 t catch any more than one-------
. F3KRY:	1-To, that one trap catches	as much as three
if thf	y are on the	s -me grounds and	if it is	placed in places
vhere the fish are running in the same dirsction,towards that particular trap which has boon drives, If ■a-.o? has R i ■ a tiap ahead oi the* one that has bo. n driven there it would
light ttie same fish or part oi them.
’.Me. PM7M	Weren’t	you trying to have us understandth-'- as was injustice in granting licenses that were not being used ail tlis time?
MM. 'MMMKY:	i think there is.
RM. 3MEMT:	Well now, if I understand Dr, Smith
rigatly, ha ashed you //bother if they were used ala the uira. , all of	them, if every	license that aaa secured was
i^ado	i noire	so of, //hether	more fish ?ouId	not be caught by
the traps?
MR, BKHRw:	Very few, if any. l*hero wouldn't be
hardly any more fish caught,
■■’P.. SWEET:	Then the injustice you bring out don't
amount to anything?
:R. B: '■ .RY:	I im just simply she .ring they are covering
IM.aR	much of	pround compared wi :h the purse	seiner. You
8M|	./o oan fo IIow the fish	right up to the	trap, and we
must do that because they are protected by their location, boc jr. so they don't have to fish except the one they hold to cat oh the fish.
RU fMER ITATE MJT BY Ti, IRA. 1). LUJOY.
MR. I/JDY:	Probably 1 could add a little light to
hi3. I think we will all agree, btbth trap non and seme ren, no. 1 am neither one, 1 am a canneryman and buy my fish on the open market from trap men or seine men, wherever I can buy ther at the prevailing price, that if you tales outall the seine boats and permit traps to fish all the fish will he caught, because there are enough trapsites to catch all the fish, there are enough men to have enough money to put in th-- traps ite if they know that trapsite /ill fish. On the other hand, #e will agree if you ta&e out all the traps there will be enough wen develop to take all the fish. Then if you talcs all the traps on Puget Sound and all the seine men, 1 believe that they will all agree that there is enough people in "Fraser Biver to catch all the fish, because if there were not they would soon get gear enough to do so, therefore, there would be no fish.
Bow, that 1 ball eve is true. 1 don't believe any man here can refute it. Bo it isn't a question of traps, in my judgment; it isn't a question of seine nets; it isn't a question of gill nets, because they will catch the fish any** way providing there is a price at srhich they can sellthem in order to make money in that occupation.
Your Commission is a • <pointedsimply to find out how you can conserve the fish so that enou*h fish will escape that we 'ill pot back to normal conditions. You have got to quit catching fish and got to quit catching them by legislation, or compel every man, or fisherman, to stop fishing for a long enough period for those fish to get to the point fhere th«-y spawn and hatch the little fish.
SECRETARY R1MJR IMO:	.	Yf	you	say	you	are a
canner?HR. LUMDY:	Yes	sir,
SECH3TARY RED?ISI*!I>:	You	have	talked	to	other	canners
about this matter?
: -H . LSJ30Y:	Yes sir.
SECRETARY HKDi'XISLD:	It	has	been	a	subject	of	conver-
sation for years, hasn't it, 1 suppose?
MR. LUHDY:	Yes	sir.
SECRETARY H1D¥IBLD:	low,	it	is	the	opinion	of	the	men
you personally know are canners on this subject agree with that you have just expressed generally?
MR. LOHDY:	Yes	sir.
3SCRMCARY REU¥XMiX>:	They have all agreed you .have
got ‘o stop catching fish long enough to restore them?
MR* LUTOY:	Yes	sir.
MSCaRTARY SBSBUU); That you oan state to us with confidence as the opinion of the canners of the Sound?
UR. LiniDY:	A	reasonable conclusion, Mr* Secretary.
Because here 1 am a canner; I have another canner ovex* here next to me, ;4,nd 1 say this, if that canneryman is going to pet those fish v*hy shouldn’t 1 get them? Uo^, 1 won't stop getting them as long as 1 know that other man will go ind pet them, and 1 will ro and prepare this year, buy several thousand dollars outlay, ;hen the chances are ten to one that
I	rill lose, thinking that possibly some superhuman thing or act of God or some way the fish may run in more quantitiesthis ye tr than last; and I do net know a canneryman that is no1, spending no re money than he kno m he will get out of his occupation. Sc it will be a good thing for me if this Coinmission had the power thereby they could say to me, "You shall not run your cannery," then I .wouldn't go ahead and make these financial arrangements, as 1 have made, and they have 11 made. £ec,ia,e we would save thousands of dollars for the next few years in sockeye fishing. How, the government don't vant eockeve fish because they are not enough to bot er 'iah and too high priced.
Ho /, this probably questions my own interests, because
1	have made preparations # the same as the others,, and can't afford to lose what 1 made, but will probably lose by trying to operate, but we will be satisfied with the other grades of fish for a while. Probably could get sockeye back where they /ere, and then I	think we willhave	to start	on
conserving th	other grades.	And I believe we have	got to
stop catching	so aany fish,	and probably stop	catching	them
all, until a	certain time	when it has shown	the fish	are
in sufficient quantities to permit the free catching of fish s it is in America today.	You	can't stop one class as
agairst another class. There is a feeling, you have detected it, a;3 between the seine boat and the trap site, but 1 don't believe it is as great you should go away with that feeling in your mind that this exists, because if you would stop all thetraps fishing and permit the seine boat and the gillno iters to continue they would catch the fish anyway, and because there *reuld be enough of them go out with that purpose in mind, Because the trap is here and they placed that traip site in a channel where they know from absolute observation that for years that is where those fish were -going to run, and they can't get by that place on account of the tide, and they al .ways runs there, within a few hundred feet, and that is the point where the fellows would fish, maybe out there th ’ec o'cloekin the morning in order to get that location; because • hey know that is where the fish will come in.
MB* SWITMf*:	Did you hear what Mr. Warren said about
Invested interests of the canneries?
MR. LinrjY:	yes sir} 1 did. mhat is true* it is
true yet. We are losing it. Trie eanneryr%n here will tell you all he made in the bip, year it takes to run his place the three years.
VR. 3WMMT:	Being	a	earner,	..nd	speaking	for	them,
do -.'ou ;;ant us to understand that you favor an absolutely coose period for a certain number of years?
MB, LUTOY:	If after .your investigation you so decide —
a. S~/VRT:	That is what you recommend?
RB. .LUTOY:	1 would say that is the only salvation
|j a, in wy judgment, today.
V?. MWIv T:	How	long	a	period?
*'H . LtDY:	1	thin):	it	will	take	six	or	eight	/cars,wo cycles probably, 1 don't know. Scientists -?il1 be able	to tell that.	1 don't know how	many fish — one man
said	t to for one.	1 don't know. 1	always imagined it was
fifty.
w.R. STOET:	is it your opinion	that the canners on
Puget Sound aou 1 d	favor an eight year	close period for the
sockeye salmon?
MR. LtJiTDY:	1 don't think it is up to the canners.
vr. 3WKET:	Would they favor it, do you think? Do
you think that would be satisfactory to them?
MR. LUKDY:	Well, 1 know this, and 1 feel just as
sure as 1 an alvdinp Mere , gentlemen, that our cannery •/on't make any money in the next year's catch of sockeye saloon and .vhat pood is their investment if they can't make money. if vou tell me 1 should not ary to do those things because of the facts of this business the better it will be for* we, because then 1 will go out and seek some other am-ployment and make some money, but as^ong as 1 have enough money, or r/-t :omebody to loan it to me, i will go ahead and try and pamble with that money* and fishing is a gamM.i all wil admit.
CMl V JUSTICE KAME1T:	One	cannery	runs	the	other
anyway?
MP. LITMJY:	Yes. Are you going to rv-n yours?
CHI MP JUSTICE MAZ'P'T:	You heard the cl i sc us 8 ion here
this morning about means of trying------------ about a close seasonthat would enable fifty per cent of the salmon each year to gp up. Wlmt is your view about that?
MR. LUMDY:	That	is just argument just to get away. 1
agreed with them a few weeks ago in this report that it was the beet way, but after listening carefully to this discussion I have changed my wind.
"K23F JTCT1CE EAZim:	Do	you	think it would effective
in restoring the sockeye salmon?
VR, LITMJY:	1 do. I think they would find .mys to get
them. You had no knowledge they got them until you knew Miey didn't get up, md then you vould have to do the things that you are trying to do this year.
DR. f>Wl?K:	Supposing we guarantee the getting up of
fifty per cent of the cat oh of any one year?
MR.	LtTCY:	You rould have to guarantee those	fifty
per	cent	■ ouJd incr ase the number of fish and the quantity
you desiredt'-em to increase to get the fish back to where it was in 1913* Sow, how many fish does it take to guarartee the pack .ve had in 1913? Do you know?
DR. 3M1TH:	Kobody	knows.
' 'P.	LUMDY:	Tli an let them all go, then in one	cycle
you	^ill know more	about it. You won't get any too	many,
you knoa that, and the number you get isn't no good now.
1917 wasn't large and 1918 won’t be as good, and 1919 pooer than 19lB.SBC, MMR4RY BSDRMMIfJ; Was so eke ye salmon unprofitable in 1917?
MR* LURDY:	Oh no, there was a little money made, but
fe starteaout with forty cent fish, raised as hi h as fifty and fifty-five, and the price of salmon a ant to #12 and’ we made -a little money on soekeye salmon. Iliii year the talk is the price of -.o eke ye salmon eighty and eighty-f i^e cants •
That willbe OlO to MU a case for the fish alone, and with the cost of your tin, added to the oost of your fish and the cost of voir* labor added to the cost of those other two articles, with your overhead, will bring it up to where it has to retail for forty-five and fifty cents for a half a pomnd can.
SBCK :?ARY RIOF12LIJ:	That wiII rmtriot, won11 it?
M;. MLTMjY:	That	v/ill	restrict it, so the canner that
puts its equipment in and sets the price at eighty cents, and the canner that has no traps and nag to go out in the market and buy, and this is heavier on my part, the canner that ha;; to go out m the market and bay ail his fish either from t r p 0 r e i no me n a t e ig h t y o r e i gh t y~f ive c e nt &, - /hi ch he has bo do if he stays in the bu sine , which 1 am willing .0 co, /oe proKbbiy pack his ten 0 • fifteen thousand case*„ if he was lucky enoup.h to ■ et the fish, and then after he got them he has got to sail the mat forty or forty-five cents for half pound can* So you can't do it, gentlemen.	It is
simply a question Miereb.y if you would pay forty or forty-fivecents for a half i>ound can of s&liaon it is all right,
MR. SWEET:	Would you reaain in the business and work
on other fish, other kinds of salmon and other fish, or go out of thecanning business?
MR. LlTTDY:	I vrould close my cannery this year probably
and rish for fall fish,, the chums or dogs, rather.
DR. M.lflTr :	Peg inning when?
MR. UPTDY:	In September or latter part of September.
Tliat is the only thing that would induce me*
DR? HMla'H:	You	?f©uld not attempt to open a cannery,
though?
MR. L MZfr:	I figure about a quarter of aoekeye sal~
non----
DR. SMITH:	With the close time, which m Uld cover
practically all of	the sockeye run, you aould not attempt to
open your cannery until the fall specie of salmon would begin to run?
"R. LtfHDY:	Until sometime in time to get ready for
Rhe fall fish, and then we have to go over to British Columbia for those fish, I have hauled more of those fish out of British Columbia than on the Puget Sound. They are getting r-o whore they are not worth while to get on the Puget Sound.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZEff:	Would a great injustice be done
to the canners if steps //ere taken during the present season tocurtail the canning of fish in view of the fact they had made their financial arrangements and their supplies'?
M-t. LUMDY:	Are	not it what ovary man tells you he
is going, to lose money.
CHI y JU' riCS	That	rould really ba doing him
a kindness?
¥a. LlfMJY:	Mr, Lowman and I own a cannery. He has
a certain organisation of fishing boats that fish for his cannery, ten or fifteen boats, in addition to traps, because h has to have boats and has to	have	traps, because	if he
don't have both-he	gets them in	both	places. I only have
bo a to. Kov/j if I	quit fishing	this	year and those	boats
get to fishing for	Mr. Lawman*s	cannery I am out of	it for
next year, when 1 have a better chance$ so 1 have ioatay in-this year with a chance of losing five to fifty thousand dollars this year. Then, of course, he has got away from mo my r.eano of support. Ka has my boats, which 1 don't own,, and he makes good friends out of then and in the meantime I am out in the cold. Ee just does the way I would do. I aoulc do it to him, too, you know; and we are all friends at that, you now.
Ml. LOVmATT:	How	lone	have	you been in the cannery
bus iness?
MR. LITCJY:	1	haven't	been	in very long.
MR. L0WUA1T:	Kow	lone?
MR. LUlaJY:	Two	years.M.R. LO aM;; \JT:	You	own	any	purse	seine?
VTi. LITOY:	We.
RR, XiO fgAE:	Ever	operate	a	fish	trap?
MR. LUTDY:	Wo, I said that.
MR. LO?n*A"':	zyo you believe	that	Sampson	was	right	//hen
he	couldn't pull do m thr house he	pulled	the	pillars	down and
v/re eked the house	and Ml '..ed him?
MR. LUHDY:	Ho,	1 am not s ying that, and I don't
: that question is a fair paneaion for yem to aak, Rr* Lowmn.
MR. liOWmi:	1	do.
MM. LUTJY:	If there is anybody trying to pull th©
pillar? dc m it is those who *rould tey to kill the fishing industry.
RR. LOMWM:	I	expeot to make oome money out of it.
The merit profitable year, Mr. Secretary, has always been that ye ,r foilorinf the off year.
MR. LlP-DY:	It is sometimes necessary to----
. LOM*?A*:?:	fha t is, f o r 5ixt e en years.
T ’ ?.. LU Z)Y:	Yo u don't ha ve t o be a o me times in th e bus-
iness all vovr life to 303 .diere you have made a mistake, and 1 don*t wi h to discuss that matter either. 1 don't say I have a ale a mistake, 1 nd probably can stay in the game if 1 have to.
GMCR :Rwpy RRMrMlMMi:	Thank you, Mr, Lundy.
Th■'	■ tinp 1 ill adjourn to me t at 2:ip o'clock.
(Adjourned.)AST&BITOOBF 3K33I0H
THUBSDAY, April 25, 1918#
2;15 p. m.
aisiO'iLRABY BLjPIELI):	Hr.	barren,	you wish to make
a statement?
KB- I ABBE 3?:	Mr. Secretary, if I understand correctly
from your statement this morning, there were two other places aboard your craft that are available, and I would like to ask, on behalf of the Association of Pacific fisheries, tha" an invitation to extended to Mr. . S.
McGord to accompany y our Commission on that trip; and I would also mppes’j t tw t in invitation be extended 10 . r. Mil.ia# Calvert, Jr., to accompany the Commission.
SEOHJSTABY BBDFHSB:	2 t is so done, ; r. v/arren.
KB- TSABEEIT:	How, if Raw Calvert is unable to go
I would suggest th* t Mr. McCord and Mr. McPherson be permittee! to select ft pers.n that might represent the views of that department an3 express them.
8S0BBTABY BEDFXEXtB:	reeable*	:	t	old	some-
body purporting to act for Mr. &oCord# who s^ id he would be in Victoria at 8;00 o’clock on Saturday morning, that \e will wait ten minutes for him; if he doesn’t come then we will wait sone more.
KB. ISoOOBD:	Thank	you,	sir.
d'r O' MTABY H£M)P1ELj:	We	will	endeavor	to	leaveVictoria on Saturday rooming. must leave on Saturday rooming, but we will wait for you, Mr. McCord.
KB. Mo GOBI):	I	appreciate the invitation, Mr.
£ eoretary.
KH. BBEHY:	Mr.	Secretary, 1 would like to have the
permission------tbere is some misunderstanding regarding
a question 1 answered this morning. With your permission I would like to correct it so the record is right, at least vs bat 1 meant to say. 1 was asked regarding s change. I want to correot that to read* I am not recommendingt not absolutely in favor of the absolute close season fir & period of four years of more, but that I think that that would be the only way to rehabilitate the salmon bank to its original status of the former years.
SECEBT4B2 K3.DFIELD:	All right. The correct 1on
is made as you desire.
The Commission are now ready to bear any who may desire to address it on the quest ion of port privileges.
Mr. Hughes.
bTATEM^H? BY MB. E. 0. HUGHES,
VICE ChAIBKAH 0? THE ALASKA BUREAU OF M3BEBIKS. d^AITL^* WAS*.
IMS;. iiUGIiaS:	hr. Secretary and members of the joint con-
ference; As vice chair.ian of the Alas tee. Bureau 1 have beenrequested to represent it in conjunction with r. Horace I. Lahey, also a member of that Eureru of Alaska fisheries.
The Alaska Bureau was created in 1911 by the business men of the city of Seattle for the purpose of assisting in the promoUonof the interests of Alaskav the development of their resources, according to the wishes and views expressed iy her people through her organised body. They have warti-oularly asked us to investigate and present for your broader aspect all the questions that are before this Conference for consider?tion.
Permit me to say in the beginning that we represent no local nor selfish interests. 1 desire to apeak only broadly as to matters which concern the common welfare of the American weo leas a ishole, and which concerns the rat iona 1 deve 1 opment and up-build ing of % be t err i t or y of Alaska.
It has teen suggested here that some divergence existed between the practice on the East Coast and the practice on the "West Coast in respect to port privileges* That inference, I beg to inform this body, arises from a misapprehension of the facts.
There i.r.s been no difference in the application of the laws, as we shall show by documents from the proper customs officials on this Coast, from the a pi ic. t ion of t Lose laws, the navigation laws of the United States, on the Bast coast so far as American ports are concerned. Itmay be true that in many instances Canadian vessels clears irg from the American port in ballast for a Canadian port have gone directly !;o the fishing banks and then returned or proceeded to the Canadian port with cargo for her entry at the Canadian port disclosed in her manifest, with cargo, when her clearance was in tallas-, was a matter with which our Customs officers have had, of course, nothing to do.
SECF.BTiRY HKDFIELD:	Just	a moment , Mr. Hughes, You
say that it has been the custom for a Sanadian vessel to clear from the American port to a Canadian port# but you proceed to the fishing grounds on the way?
HR. HU3B&3:	1	understand	thfit	that	sometimes has
been done.
3hGBETAKY BKDFIBLJ:	I call your attention to the fact
that that is what has been done, hsving a telegram dated Ketchikan, January 21, 1918, signed by the Deputy ClarR of Customs, spe<- >ing of Canadian vessels. (Heading).
"Do not grant clearance for high seas to
Canadian vessels. They clear for a Canadian port, but, however, proceeding to the sea fisheries from here.8
How, 1 call your attention to the fact that is the ex- ct
reverse of what has been permit'ed upon the Atlantic
Coast, and that the procedure in Alaska, in American ports,
as regards Canadian vessels, has been, and is known in
fishing, to be the exact opposite of that which has pre-
30'/vs i 1 e d h or e t, of ) re up on t be A t la nt ic 0 oa s t;.
MB. HUOKMS:	May I hsk, Mr. secretary, if a
Canadian vessel oIcered from Boston, for exaaple, to Halifax, or to It. Johns, some Canadian port 9 and cleared ballast, and, in fac% , cleared to ihe fishM ,nks, and on her way to the Canadian port took in a cargo or oatoh of fish ana then proceeded to the port, whether the American Customs officers would have any control over the action of that vesself
bMCIava4.KY EEDflELD:	I	think that vessel would have
had inconveniences when she returned to Boston.
1li. nUGH: 3:	Moss	ibly.
SECRETAKY EKC.FIELJ:	In	any event it wasn’t done,
permitted
and a • urM.er-too i clearly as not /1o be done by our authorities. Fot a seriousmatter at all from our point of view.
MJR. HU GEM 3:	TTo,	I	don't	think	it	is a serious matter.
I merely allude to the fact that so fsr asthe laws are concerned there has been no different interpretation of them, as we will show by the reports of the Customs collectors of this port. If a different practice Las obtained it has been on the part of Ua. action of the Canadian vessel after ciear ing.
s^CMM. RRY	1	beg a our pardon, Mr. Hughes.
That is not quite co, reoM I don't refer, of course, to the ort of Seattle, nor to the fp.ct of the different action on
a' H R J}\JOthe part of the Canadian vessel at all. It was t be different aot or_ the part of the Customs Collector in Ketchikan, known to be so, and staled to be so over his own signature.
1 & id go in.3 to ask you to be ver careful, to be exactly correct in these facts, because twice already, as you have stated them to the Commission, they are not; quite strictly accurate. Bow, the fact is ■— if you have testimony to the contrary we are delighted to hear it •—- but the
fact in that ihe Customs Collector himself states, in response
6
to a definite request, that the pr.ctlc# as practiced, not the practice of the Canadian vessel, but the practice of the United Sta es officer, was the reverse of the oust m on the Atlantic Coast. How, that is forcibly stated, if you will pardon me, by the Commissioner of navigation of our own department, whose subordina e the Collector of Customs is# and aoting under the orders of the Com.r his knowledge.
111.. HUGEM3:	If	such	orders	of	the	Commissioner of
Havjgat ion wore issued prior to the action -------
dKCBMRARY KLDFIELC:	1	should	say	with his knowledge
rather than under his orders.
MR. HUGE MS:	I	think,	Mr.	secretary,	that you mis-
understood me. 1 was merely stating wh< t we expect to show by the int roduction of certain documents. I have not, as I
*09heard stie report from the Collector at Ketchikan read, drawn the inference that bp any act of hlshe gave, or assumed to give, to the Canadian vessel the right to proceed to th© fishing banks on her way to the Canadian port, but simply that tas t was done by the vessel. low, j may be mistaken about that, but, Mr. Secretary, I do not t; bink that tirt question is one of importance.
S5CBM7ARY KEXJflELB:	Wo,	I	don’t	think	so	either.
.MB. .tJQBRS:	In	speaking of it i merely meant to
call a11ent ion vo the faot that the 'oouments that we shall offer show that the Collector of ports at Juneau and the Collector of portb for this district, the two districts, do not recognize that there has ever been any intentional departure from our shipping navigation laws.
If o here have been technical departures it is quite immaterial, 1 think. It appears from whet has been here said *:,nd what Is d loosed by your record, by virtue of the executive power existing under the Constitution and under the war measure 3 of Congress, these provisions, pro-visions of the navigation and shipping laws have been suspended and the privilege is extended to all Canadian vessels engaged in the fisheries to enter our ports as froort s; that is U) sap, that all the rights to skelter, and repairs, to obtain supplies, to unload cargo and to dispose of cargo, ar.d to clear directly for the fishing banks.ana that right is extended on this Coast. A corresponding right has beer conferred giving privileges in excess of those granted under the treaty of 1818 on the part of h e Ca nadian ^overnioerp,, and tha t order suspends its arior Orders in Council inconsistent with it. The measures so adopted are only for the period of trio war. How as to those measures, I want to say that we have nothing to offer in opposition to them at all; m-e are quite in accord with them.
Me o not want ary testimony that we shell offer in ts.is case, any documents or other proof we shall off rt to be understood as expressing the slightest measure of op osit ion o the most unlimited freedom of action on the part of either government in doing whatever it deems necessary or feasible for the suecessfal prosecution of this war, and only matters that concern the welfare of this nation, or, indeed, that concern the welfare of our neighboring nation to the north^ now engaged in a common c-amat. i# would not be understood for a moment in anytking that we set 11 offer in the c-our e of the hearings of this Conference to even su^post the slightest measure of oppositi on. However, in the nature of things, whetev r is done by the Executive Department of the Government as a war re a sure 9 and ^hat has been done by th Canadian Government, purports only to be for the pariod of the war and must necessarily bemeasured by iRtiat period in other words, these provisions cnr in their nature be temporary only. xf a solution is bad of sry of the problems whick is sore than a temporary solution it, of course, can be had only by t1.6 exoroiae oM th* treaty makinp powers of the tw® countries, by the action of our Congress in the .levelopment of our fishery resources. I tv.ke it that the scope of this inouiry, as I gather it from the record that has hitherto been made, and from the utterances thet have hitherto been made, is three-fold in its character* fir at, to investigate nd to consider all questions which may be enlightening or in any wise important in the guidance of the administrative powers of the respective countries in any matters that involve the successful e rose cut ion of t he war or the welfare of its people during t oat period* and to that end.
And second, that its inquiry covers the scope of manifest unnecessary existing evils, evils that ought not to esist between two n t ions which, have be*, n actively characterised by our i< ere ary are of common origin, speak a common tongue, he vo	comfLon democratic system or lorm of ^olrernment, and
have common interests and common aims.
As to such Biatters such as, for example, the replenishment of the exhausted or exhausting fish resources, salmon and the halibut, for instance, this body0 in its investi-g&tion, oar. ascertain facts which may result in immediate action, not withstending the war, for their solution, for their permanent solution. But as to the greater question which must be settled by permanent treaties defining the policies of the respective nations, it seems to us that they can only be solved when peace shall finally cose as a resalt of victory in arms,
Bow, it has been suggested that the questions may be settled orobably upon a continental basis, that there need be and ought not to be any divergence of interests between these two great countries9 parties to this conference. Permit roe to say that if we would win, out of
conf ederation
victory can only come such a	of nations as will
guarantee the free om from controvery between them and seoure permanent peace to the world. they must still exist as families, they must still, in the functioning of their governments, preserve and protect the interests of their own people, and wherever those interests are divergent each nation is bound to pursue such a policy as will best conserve the interests of its own people. wherever there is divergence, therefore, there is room for difference of opinion, ond that difference can only be determined by the treating making povers ultimately to bo sanctioned b; the senate and to be enforced, so far as our ov<n policies are concerned, by our Congress.low, it has been suggested that the food question wag the vital question in this country. i quite agree with tbefc suggestion. Re are consuming, or rather, to put it the other way, Canada wae, prior to the way, consuming once n r:d e half times as much of edible fish foods as the population of the United States, and England core than three t im s asmuch; yet I find that so eminent an authority upon the subject as Mr. J. J. Barpell, of Canada, gives statistics to the effect, drawn, I think, fror;' 19^5 and prior years, the! the entire production of sea fish, food fish, of the United States was about four hundred and ten thousand pounds, of Canada about four hundred thousand pounds ------ 1 mean four hundred thous nd tone.
That has probably increased since that time, but you will observe that, allowing it to be increased to four hundred and fifty thousand tons, we would have a total production of fish at the present time of about nine billions of poundaT-
hundred si11ions of pounds. Mow, if our consumption is eighteen pounds per annum per capita we are consuming one-----
SnCKMIAMRY IsMFISLJ:	Mr. Hughes, pardon me, but I
think Vve should take the literty# if you will excuse me, as you £o along, getting f h c t s clarified. How, those statements are entirely 5nccrreot, 1 think.
.-fti—
4IRE* HUGHES:	1 gave the authority as Hr* Harpell.
SMOKeZAHY MMDFIMI 3:	It	doesn't make any difference
whQziQ aut hority it was.
ME* ?OUIMD:	I think	t aero is a mistake.
3MC E7ASY HE	FIELD:	There is a mistake,	a	very
serious and fundamental mistake.
LIE. POUND:	I	think	you must have misread Mr. Harpell fs
state aient *
L '• . r.U CL,..-I:	T	he	se	raa 11 ers a re only ma 1t ers of - - -
3HCBERRAKY BhDFIBID:	As	a matter of feet, I may say
that instead of the statement made ofnine hundred million pounds beinp oorrect, tfc actual facts are that the fisheries of the United states alone produced two billion pounds, two thousand million pounds per year, and that the Atlantic <eo[le, I will say	without	any difficulty, on	the	Ifew England
coast, they claim	a definite increase.
ME- HUGiM B:	And	I	suggest wo are. 1 am merely
celliap attention to these matters asa basis for the presentation $ wish to make. I shall introduce in evidence for other reasons this article of Mr. Ba-rpell's, recently
published in the Canadian Fisheries, at page 5 of the wh i ch
document±/ I shall introduce, which is a copy of his article. He says:	(Heading)
"The principal fish producing countries of the world, in the order of their importance* are therefore
1 Oas follows:	The	United	states,	which	produced
approximately tons per year, 410,000; Canada,
400jf000. "
3EQRSTARY RI.TDFIKI9s	s	mistaken,	thB.t'8	ail.
HR. EUCrHMS:	1	am	not	attempting	to	state	the fast,
I am stating upon this respectable authority for the purposesoof illustration. Assuming that that is correct, we would be consuming twice the amount of fish we produce, assuming the figures that have been given by the secretary to be correct , we would already be consuming nearly the entire fish product of our own country. If, therefore, we increase the consumption of fish by the people of the United States, sr. we ought to do, to at least three-fold the present consumption, and probably more than that, it becomes of the utmost importance to the American people to see to it that her fishing resources are developed, and it is only for the purpose of emphasising that fact that I have called attention to the figures that have been given, trie illustration that has been made* in other words, it is vital to the American people that the fishing resources of the Jnit-ed States shall be developed to a capacity vastly beyond their prec >nt development, and if we have ref rence o the condi-tions thf t, sre to come hereafter it will become apparent that as our country grows in population we must be more and fiaore a fish consuming nation, and, therefore, the Americanfisheries become a concern of the vastestimportance to 1 he A me r 1 oa n p e op 1 e.
Mow 1 desire to p o in t o ut cert a in ms. t % e r s wt! o h emphasize the importance for food production of the.
American people, that we should oa e for, conserve our fisheries, and that we should build up the American fishing Interests by American fisherman, operating vessels under the America a flag, as a means of national product ion and na t i o no 1 v, e 1 fa r e.
As bearing upon the situation in the West and the fish food oosaifc;1 ities, we have prepared certain maps, whioh will he explained to you, arid data introduced, reference to ’which appear upon some of these maps.
For the purpose of illustration, two maps have beer-prepared which are on the right, one showing the Atlantic seaboard nnd depth of water, constituting the fishing banks to a depth of 100 fathoms. I don't intend to make any extended comments upon them, but it will be observed, that the fishing banks off the east coast of the united states - re limited, confined in the main to the Georgia banks.
R'hose off Canada to th: coast of ’ova Scotia and the mouth of the St. Lawrence, trie coast of Labrador. I believe little is yet known of the possibilities of Hudson Bay, hut the shallowness	,	of	its	water	lenas	force	tot tie argument, that may yet develop into a fishing field or resource. And off the coast of Newfoundland are the jjew-fcurdlend banks. Mow it is understood, of oourse, that the fisbin.p banks t th are available for food for mankind are c: ■ efly north oR the 40th parallel of north latitude.
Comparing the situation on the Bast ao&fcr with reference to the food resources of the United States an 3 of Alaska* it will be seen tiu t those of Gan ds are vastly in excess of those adjacent; to the United States proper. A very United bank extends off the western coast of the United States, widening somewhat as you a pproach Cape flattery, where there have bean halibut banks which are now becoming exhausted, end extends, widenin'? gradually past the coast of Eritish Columbia until you reach the southeastern extremity of Alaska. It will be observed more strikingly from the ofchei map bow this continental shelf extends around the seaboard of Alaska and how sharply defined is that shelf as distinguished from the great basin of the P.acific. But observing the fishing grounds of Alaska it will be seen thet they extern for a very substantial width > 1 o ng b e an tire s ou t he rn c oe s t of Alaska to the very extremity of the Aluutian Islands. That then, beginning with Unimak pass in the Aleutian islands# the fishing b. nks extend northwesterly to the Siberian coast, so that the entire eastern portion of Bering 3ea is potentially
oa fishing .ground. It has been developed to some extent; there are already certain fisheries, svme of the largest fisheries of the world, I believe, on Bristol Bay, and there are other fisheries extending as far north as Kotzebue Sound, but the fishing resources have been very slightly exploited in the	Bering	Sea.
DB. 8KJRK:	You are	basing	your assumption	of
the existence of fishing grounds over this entire area indicated by blue color on your map on the fact that all of these grounds lie within the 100 fathom groove. Do we understand you correctly?
KB. EUGrRcS:	tie uave portrayed here in both maps
tU. grounds shat, lie above the 100 fathom depth of ocean.
We are not presuming to say that either Hudson Bay is a fishing ground or that Bering Straits, or all of	Bering
3ea, is a rich fisheries,	merely	suggesting that	the	develop-
ment especially indicates its great potentialities as a fishing field, that's ail.
ShC: ST ABY RKDFIB LJR:	v« ell. Hr. Hug he s , i t woul d al s o
be true, would it not, that outside of the territorial waters the major part thereof what you indicate in Bering Sea, is open to the fields of the world, to the Japanese fleet.
IB* BUj£B3:	We	hove not pictured here the Japanese
fishing banks, but, of course, it is well understood that off 6he entire ooast, outside of what is commonly recognizedinternationally as the limit of territorial jurisdiction, is open - o the fishing fleets of the world.
SECIJiTARY EEBflELD:	Yes.
r:K. hUHM.3:	1 have always felt, 3 may say, that the
arguments advanced by some authors upon international law, that that distance should be extended as the power of the
nation 10 protect its shores has been increased, in some relation lo that power. It grew out of the national -«<- the
nation could protect its shores to the distanc§xone league.
And in the controversy, in which 1 happened to represent t he Canadian interests, growing out of the old sealing question we .iid have occasion to present our contention, or it was presented, in the case that 12 miles, which was at that time, some 20 odd years ego, about the iistanoe from which a nation could protect its cl,ores, was the apj ropriate measure of jurisdictional power of one nation over its a&gacenfc scacoast.
Now, I want to add that if this coast line is measured from headland to headland along the entire coast of southern .Alaska, and the Aleutian Islands, and th n from headland to headland around the ooest line bordering upon Bering sea to Kotzebue Sound, it represents a distance of approximately
3,000	miles. You v. ill observe that there is, as shown on this map, a fishery ------
hr.- SMITH:	Are	you	not mistaken in thatf
lilt. lie vHaM MCI?:	Mr.	Hughes meant to say Unimak Passinstead of the Aleutian Islands,
IE . hUMRRij:	Yes, t; he distance measured at those lines
and then rlonp tie coastline would be approximately 5,000 miles from headland to headland.
DK. SMI? We have f; eouently said, f.s to the importance of .Alaska, its fishery resources, that the coast line of Alaska was between twenty and thirty thousand miles in length.
M3. HUGE tF.S:	Yes, but that measures the indent at ions,
between twenty and thirty thousand miles. You are right in that.
DK. SMITH:	26,000	miles.
I IK. E R Rl n3:	la	m g i v i n i t he dint an a e s from t h e p r o - -
jeoted points, meaning to sho% that the linear measurement along our coast line faoing the fishery, is approximately
5,000	miles.
I want to add in this connection as bearing upon the subject in hand, that the mean temperature from ooutheaatem to Southwestern Alaska eiong its entire southern seaboard* mean annual temperature, is approximately t ha t of >?ew York and Philadelphia; that the mean annual temperature of the coast line of Bering sea, over the portion which I have here^or Sofore described, is approximately that of the coast of irew f undland and rova Scotia. So that the physical difficultiesin the may of developing more fisheries in this v at fishing ban-:, or fishing region, sre much less on this coast, having reference to latitude, than they are on t be Bast coast, and the possibilities of fisheri ?b in Hudson Bay, if they exist , would be offset by the possibilities to the north, wfeere the temperature,to the north of Kotzebue Sound, where the temperature would be similar.
SKCMETAKY HBDfi'ELD:	Mr. hughes,, don't you think that
should he qualified in this respect, that the fishing fields of Hew England, in some measure at least, go clear around the Gapes of Florida. The large houses in Gloucester have their stations in Pescola, at least one has, and they go for m&cMernl completely down to the southern point, hardly covering the coast; line of a coupl* of thousand miles, and I have myself been present when the mackoral captains were discussing the trip about to be trken to the cape of Good Hope fo: caokeral so that, I don’t think you can argue that the area in the pacific, or the difficulties in the area are either more or less large or real than those of the Atlantic.
MM. HUGH' 3:	1 have rot dealt with the possibilities of
.■ semi-tropical waters as sources of food su|$y9 because they are not deemed by the authorities as a safe allowance for the majority, or even a material portion, of
the food supplies of the ua*. Ion-----whatever they contribute
is so much added. I have dealt with fishery banks as they areclassified b^ authorities uoonthe subject, an<3 there are four great fishing; banka, end have dealt with the cond i~ tions north oi the 4Qth parallel, because it must be rooognized by the authorities that x% very much the largest portion of the sea food supply of the oceans is found in the f I airing banks lying north of the 40th parallel of north .Latitude, and physical reasons have been pointed out by these authorities why the light latitudes south of the equa .or do not afford the same fishing grounds on account of the depth of we ter. whatever r:ay be found from those water , Mr. Secretary, is so much gain to our country, beoauso 1 sm presenting this argument upon the broad promises for which 1 have found m most excellent text in what has been said by yourself before this Body, and to whict 1 rive the most whole-hearted concurrence.
That problem is elreedy a serious problem, and innthe coming years will become vastly a more serious problem, and the time has arrived when the United States should aooert itself , rid prosecute with the utmost vigor its erdeavor to secure permanently to its people an adequate seafood supply.
3 DCS. .a'MAKY RED?IM3.j :	Me agree with you entirely.
M: . UCK i:	Mow,	as tearing upon the possibilities
of this Miaska fishinp bank, and I dwell upon that for the21
reason that I stated in the beginning, and for the further reason as a national one, that it is, as it a ears t c us, the principal fir.bins bank adjacent to United states territory, ?nd over which the united states may assert; some measure of power consistent with the rights of other rat ions, not inconsistent with the rights of other nations, and look-ins to its own higher upbuilding and the meet ing of its permanent future needs. X shall indicate how that shall be done in a moment.
3po* king now of the evelopment of the fisheries on this coast* I hey beg-n, 1 beli ve, in the * 50's, fishing froa San Iran© iscot the oocl banks, to the Aleutian 'r slant] s.
But the salmon industry was the first to develop to any considerable extent,	I tel I	n the 'bo’s, I Relieve,
And for many years the headquarters of these fishing industries was in 8 n Francisco. But the reasons that h.: ve already bean made manifest, the source gf supply led to the gradual transfers of the center of operation until finally It ms fixed on Puget Sound, after means of transport at ior. had been provided across the continent from -uget Sound by one or more railways. As time passed transcontinental lines were built across British Columbia, first to Vancouver and afterwards to rince Bupert% fhe s e facilities oi fer ing transportation, I a: ctevelopment of the industry naturally tended to center northward nearer the fishing banks.
J2
mill it is rov. true tb t Al ska produces, 1 think,---------
I oo not undertake to say this as a fact # but I think about 80 per cent of the entire fish production of the country. That is my impression- I am not attempting. lo speak her as an expert, 1 merely intending to outline to you so you may receive understandingly the testimony we shall offer, sad I hope that ± will not be assumed to be sta ndjtng before you m any sense as an expert upon these facta#
This much I j&ay say, that according to the statistics " f.Ht have teen com. iled by our Secretary, and other authorities assisting us, "he value of the Alaskan fish product of 1917 was approximately $52,000,000, while the value of the entire sea food product of Canada, according to tie figures that tave been furnished me by the authorities I speak of, is slightly under $40,000,000. I mention this to shov* that while me have as yet only been gathering the cream, taking the salmon end the halibut, while as yet we have only begun to discover the possibilities of halibut banks along the western end, that portion of prince william Jound, we have not considered of sufficient importance the value to take on a very large scale, any of tht- vas:; numbers of other food fishes of these fishing banks. I here are some herring plants there is already a oertain amount of cod fishing, but the otherfisheries have net beer sought, and heir value seems to be undisputed. The quantity of ood and herring, and many other kinds of pelagic, as well as deep sea fish, seem, so far as our advices go, to be, relatively speaking, illimitable. roa .Utilities, therefore, are as I have indie ted and as is shown on this map indicated by the development thus far made. You will find on this map, and the evidence that will be offered will be explanatory of it, and of statistics, how rapidly the fishing resources of Alaska have extended first along the boot heel of Alesha until finally it is reaching the western portion of rrince Will ia-n Sound sna the peninsula, and is finally also, as 1 understand it* to the mouth of the guskequim River, and I believe there is one cannery on the Yukon, and there are fishing plants on the reward Deninsula, and one salmon cannery, I believe, on Kotsebue 3ound. if I am mistaken in describing tho particular plants you will not be led in error, because the legend on the map will set you right.
There are already five cold storage plants, one constructed last year et Seward, 1 believe two more are contemplated for eerly construction.
Now, these facts are &entioned as indicating that American capital is rapidly seeding the development of this fishing rep ion, 1 nd as *;lso indicating what we desire to see on behalf of Alaska,, that it is entirely possible to fishthis great country frow villages and towns, requisite resources along the entire southern seaboard of Alaska, perhaps Bering Sea.
CaCMCTahY BEDPliiLB:	X would just	like so fill in
one or two things that will	supplement what you said, not
by way of change at all.
MB.• HUGH?!8:	Yes,	sir.
S^GKM. AKY EKDFIE1D:	The estimate of the Bureau of
Fisheries is th fc the fish product of the United stales is a| roximately , 110,000,000 in value, of whion Alaska furnisb-©3, our es. in;ate was a. prosiaately 50,000,000, whi ih corresponds very closely with whet you said.
And for the purpose	of	covering the	point which you
just made as to distance,	1	sent for two	publications, which
hsve just rrived, ,,pon that subject. The tidal shoreline of Alaska is 15,132 st,atuc-e miles, baaed upon unit steps of three statute miles, and the tidal s cor el and of the continental United States is 12,877 statu e miles. There are, therefore, something more than 20 per cent more coast line in Alaska than in the entire continental united states.
I want to get that on the record, hap ening to have it here before me.
MB. j UGEE3:	Yes. Let me say, Mr. Secretary* we
mention the direct line bee?use we desire to show the possibility of coast line over which fishing operations could be conducted. of course, the indentations cut no figure withthat feature of the question* The possibility of the establishment of fishing villages, f!sting towns, and center ing of a fishing population along the coast of Alaska so that fishermen jay go directly to the bank and returr: with their catch, replenish their supplies, and gpe go back to the banks with the least ossible loss of time, can be accca lished best by the development of the fishing resources of ML aska from Alaskat from Alaskan points, fro® Alaskan-built villages and towns.	We have shown you this
map to show what has bees acoom lished in the few years with out encouragement, except that encouragement which offers to the iaan who goes out to replenish his fortune, without any aid or assistance from nj.s government, and without the encouragement of t he govemment e it her to him given unt .11 this time to induce his own people to becose consumers of the product.
How, 1 want at this point to go in^o a question which, to CLy mind, is very important as hearing upon the problem, although I do not intend to offer a direct answer to it,
or the question, I might sa;y, which was suggested by the Secretary at the opening of. the hearing, the quest i on of port privileges.
This I want to say broadly, the necessities, the food necessities of the American people demand that the fish res ur es that ere legitimately controllable by our nation sr.all be developed for the benefit of our people. That canonly te done, in ia$ opinion, by the creation of m American fishing fleet, manned by American f1 -hermen who shall fish from American villages nearest to those fishing banks.
let me say in this connection, this nation at the beginning of the present war, had a merchant marine adequate to the carriage of its ocean borne commerce of only about 7 per cent., I think, of its ocean borne commerce. I'hen we had great American fisheries off she coast of Kew England we developed an American merchant marine of which America, in in its early life, had cause to be prouJ* It bore a reasonable relation to the commerce of the first half century of our national existence. And then, as the steamship came into vogue the American people allowed her merchant marine to disappear. If any problem is solved by the .American
people as a result of victory in this war it is that henceforth the American nation will be a maritime nation, thnt the American merchant marine will be built up and maintained upon a scele adequate to the needs of American commerce.
That, 1 think, has been the manifest policy of this Administrate on.
It was r .'parent to many of us long before that it would lead to disaster of a crisis ever came before this nation if we did not rovide a merchant marine. The great masses of American people could not see it so. All attempts to create suoh a merchant marine were futile, but by the price of wealth, by the dearer price of blood, America will havelearned "he lesson, end I prediet that America will never forget it.
How, the pursuit of the sea from t ae beginning of time was first in search of seafood. It was the fishermen that built gradually the merchant ships, find every great maritime nation of the world has also built a nation of fishermen; that is to say, a nation whiofa. has maintained i%s fisberie3 atd. which bad a fishing fleet and fishermen bearing some adequate relation to the commercial needs of .Its people.
And t, be fishery has always been recognised as the cradle of the me rot ant .marine. ben ce, if we are to have a merchant marine we must have sn American fit hing fleefc, and tbat- American fishing fleet must be manned by American fishermen, so that they my b come the source of supply to our Merchant navy. ?
Tbege propositions seem so self-evident that 1 cannot beiieve that any solution of this question will ever be mad® with the consent of the American people which does not result in the fullest protection of our fisheries and in the c cation of American fishing fleets end 01 American fishermen, or the supply of American fishermen.
M.Cj RRAEY HEDFIiSL J:	Mr- hughes, I wonder if that is
ruite the fact? Speaking generally, 1 doubt if it is true :uat tbe merchant sailors,speaking of the steam merchant fleet f the v.orld, are in any very large measure recruitedfrom the fisting fleets. I think, for example, it la open to question whether in the merchant fleet of Great Britain, the largest in the world, any material number of their steam sallormen come fro© the fishing fleet. 1 am rather of the impression, I as not sure, I arc rather of the impression that the fishing interest* the fishing seamen, the fishermen of the 7ortt sea. adhere rather closely to their own professional work, which they do with remarkable skill, and that no very large share of the British merchant fleet is recruited from that source. I should be very glad if there were t& n, itla facts available, but 1 doubt if it is true. I doubt if it is true, furthermore, broadly speaking, that the American steam merchant floet ------ 1 drew a careful distinction thexa ------------------------- is itself recruited, or to be recruited, from
any present or any future American fishing fleet. I am of
the impression, subject jo correction ------- 1 may be wrong ------
I am of the impression that the fishing industry as conducted is more remunerative to the men of the fishing vessels than employment can be on any steam merchant vessel9 ana that while what ^ou say is, I grant you, a common argumentt and was undoubtedly the truth at the beginning of our country, when our merchant fleet waw largely sail, and may be true in a measure today so far as our fleet remains a sailing fleet. I question as regards the steam fleet of the future, whether it is a correct viewpoint. I wi3h there were some tangible facts that could be submitted. 1 don't know7 of any*KR. HUCEE3i	I t Link, Hr. secretary, that the demands
of fc great merchant marine must vastly exceed any source of su ply that could be found from a fishing fleet, X have no doubt the 5 is true. I Lav erne rely pointed out the fact, as i f? cR of history, that every great merchant; marine nation, every nation which maintained a great merchant marine, in otter words, nations that were 3rest maritime nations, have always been net Ions maintaining extensive fishing fleets.
It is a recognised fast that the life of the fisherman, particularly the deep sea fisherman, familiarizing himself with the ways of the sea, makes it possible for him to be a much better seaman, whether he board a steam-going vessel or a sailing vessel, because he knows the sea, because ne is a man of initiative in the exigencies of the sead because he comes to love the sea and the independence of the aeai and, of course, it will be true that so far as the limit of the demand of t tie fishing fleet is concerned, while It offers greater inducements, th. fishermen will not leave the fashing fl«eI; for the &eanjvessel. But the maintenance of a merchant aarine, and of a ltrge sea fishing fleet, it seems 10 me, in the light of historical facts, go hand in hand; that if v/e twive tle one it will be easier to have the other, we have never had ti.-s fishing fleet adequately to the possibility of our liaheries or to the demands of our people, ^nd that perhaps is one of the reasons why we have not teen heretoforea f i sh eat In pe ople.
CaOR-MRRJty EEDFHsLD:	well. Isn't it a fact, Mr. .dugoes,
that v. iu c fishing fleet, for example, of Kew England, before Alaska was ours, isn't it the fact that the finhimg fleet, of Mew England 8nd the Atlantic coast was t% its largest at the time when our merchant fleet wag at Its smallest?
ME. EU&KF3:	I	am	not	prepared to answer that
queo tIon.
S.aCMa MM Y KKDJIiiLD:	1	have	personally	seen	«—
Ml.. iiUGKMS:	As	a matter of fact, of statistics;
but in point of fact, Hr. Secretary, relative to the development of the country and Its population, it is my understanding t the Mew England fishing fleet had developed to very large proportions and was trie basis for the development of the Mew England merchant marine, or vhe American merchant uar ine.
SKCMj. ABY HJMDPIMLB:	Joa are quite right, wbon i t was
a sailing merchant fleet, you are fulte xif lit about that.
M . HUOHM3:	Yes. If you have a fisting population,
or if you have fishing villages, you hove men inured to the ways of the sea, you find it much easier t,o find seamen for our merchant fleet, in my opinion. That is a mere matter of opinion, hut ea I retd the history of nations it seems to roe thai opinion la confirmed in the lipht of history.
O, O
JOdSCKM AKY 3SEEi)PIEL?:	We a, t he sisuaMon today is
rather inter sting in that respect. le are now engaged in raising a larpe force of seamen for our merchant r;arlne, soae thousands, but we are not looking toward our fishing fleet for sny of it.
IM.. ;.U GrEB 8:	V: e v ould 1 o o k in vain, bee an s e o ur
fi at 5np fleet 1s so ins ignlfioant•
3-&0: KTAR* H^i)Pl£ID:	ITo,	pardon me, 1 haven't got
it oil in. 7,e are looking to the inland country boys very much end to the boys who have never been to sea, and they are training those for th-U- work; while at the same time,
Hr. Hughes, it is almost impossible in the 3ast to get American crews for any fishing vessel, and our are^s, by special arrangement of the immigr&tion laws, or the courtesy of the Canadian a .it horit ies, our American fishing vessels on the Mevv England coast are very largely manned by Canadians, and some are manned by Portuguese, and American sailors are pi ct ioally impossible to get.
MB. HUGH.'3:	American	sailors pou mean for the fishing
fleet?
3aG iw '.MY iiKD^IELM:	Yes. A very s$all proportion.
1 happen to have a tatle. l thought I had »t available here.
k£. EUGEBS:	Mr.	Secretary, that is not true simplysince be v.or, &■- j understand it* It lias long been true that our fishinp fleet was manned chiefly by Canadians, or Portuguese end other foreign-born ---
SaOx-E: 'EY BBDFIEL'Dl I think perhaps I may hava given you a mistaken impression. Oh, I have it here, on exhibit r,X”. In s total of 2,095 seamen in Gloucester fishing fleet for the year 1^X7, counting 152 vessels, on page 580g? there are 754 Americans, 897 Canadians, 257 Newfoundlanders, 157 .. ortu.’aese, 17 Scandinavians, 14 French9 end from t hat doTvn, but you get the exact proportion there.
KB. HUGH-aB:	15e Likewise have to recruit; our merchant
marine in t he same we^-. X- he contention that we make in laying before you - he possibilities of our fisheries and the importance of a &7eIopment, is that there are two outstanding needs before this nation which it must find the way to meet, and must educate its people to meet them- First, to build up the American fisheries by American fleets and American fishermen, or Mono entitled • o U&h upon American fleets under our laws; and second, to build up an American merchant mar ine.
St ORKRAEY MMjjFIKLI*:	You are quite right,
lap:. HUG K3:	And we must net only build	them up,	but
we must maintain t here. Our law 3 tuns t make it	possible	to do
so.	And, I may add, ws must, '<n^ 1 think the	American	people
v»ill onl? make such treaties with Canada or Grepfe Britain, or hny other nation, as have due regard to those two tryingns i ion^ 1 nesessi t ies.
Now, as bearing on the question of whether the policy of free ports during the war, in which heartily concur for the reasons I h« ve stated, is one that may be an in-t rud i ng o 1 i cy af ter the war.
I want to offer e certain amount	of	documentary	^nd
other testimony.	&m	not prepared to say that we will
offer eny testimony which indicates what the solution shall be for this nature, but we will offer testimony which we ti ink tt*t those charged with the responsibility of representing this rwtion will be bound to consider, as those responsible for the nation, in finally solving	problems	to	be
solved by treaty or settling policies	to	be fixed	by	Acts of
Congress. In other wordc, they must be considered by those who, in the exercise of power to act, are responsible to the American people. I want to say that in offering this evidence, which will consist of matters showing the character, the nt. me r of handling tee situation by Canada to the north of us, her regulations, her policies, course of dealing in the past respecting the former development of the fishing industries, ^nd the mr-nner of its carrying out. we are not offering for any purpose, we are wot offering it with thought
of --- we are offering it solely v H h a view of laving
before Mi is Conference, and those who heve occasion to consider it, tho evidence gathered by this Conference as evidencesof a wise national policy, one th t looks to the doing ox the things that this nation must do for its people, tm-1 this nation must, do for its own people.
OaGMiM'AHY Ki.D^IKLI;:	Well,	Mr.	Hughes, the suggestion
that p 'u purpose lo introduce testimony before the Commission as to past Motion on the part oM the Canadian authorities S' ems to we, speaking personally, without conference with my colleagues, a singly unfortunate thing to do, a singly indiscreet ;hing to d o9 if I am correct in my interpretation
that the testimony tbit you purpose to thus introduce bears
has
upon a situation which Xft now, by official Act of the Canadian Government ceased to exist.
We are not here for the purpose of attempting to discover from a past, before we reached our -resent ideals# a possible basis for feeling as to what may happen - in the future. l point out to you that the controversy between
the two countries has been much longer, much stronger, much more serious, on the Atlantic Goaat than upon the Pacific.
ftt had lasted a century th re before it began here. pot one point was raised, thank God, to put one word of history into the re cord8 nd for an American who looks for peace and accord, I d hope that r. thing will be suggested by you as bearing icon the work of this Commission which attempts, by inference or by referring to a dean, past, to project fear and suspicion into the future. 1 hope it may be as thoughtfully considered on your part on this Coast as it was considered
-r '	4 >
O	O iupon the Atlantic Coast. But if you must, if you feel that
the issues of what 1 regard as a dead past ought to be
questioned for any puipose whatever, brought before the
Commission to be made a portion of trie testimony in the
case, then I remind you that you run the risk, and must do
it with the eyes of the nation upon you, to run the risk
of opening wide all the did history, one portion of which is the f at that we transgressed and were obliged to pay
i 0,0 R, . 08 r laauly 9 for wrongs committed by us* and that you cannot offset that by making one right out of two wrongs. Before you proceed to iniroduoe any testimony bearing upon former Orders in Council, or upon former procedure upon the part of the Qanadian authorities, if that be your purpose, which I hope I do not misunderstand, tut before it is done
I	teg you to wait, to defer, .nd to consider whether the pjwrt of America today, however keen our views and our desire for the development of our own fleet, and wbioh I earnestly ag:ee and cordially support9 as you said, should not be free from any remembrance, whether just or unjust, kind or unkind, wise or unwise, of anything except the present. I hope you. w 11 not ask us to consider any statement of the past.until you have taken time very seriously to reflect upon I. tie pre- t responsibility that is assumed in so doing at this t ime.
HR. MUGbMS:	1	r.	Secretary,	1	thought	1	distinctly	stated
no Q
M- O Ott t nothing would be offered in criticism or rearlain t ion *
nothing would be offered except as we offered the evidences
indicative
of the past policy of Canada as RKga&ixg. of a wise national policy at a time of peace, ss a policy destined to protect the interest;3 of Canada, to look rfter the welfare of her people, to build u her resources, as t be policy which could at least be considered by ibe Ameri jan people when peace time came for tbe settlement of its national policy.
And if there be ought of offense in that 1 confess my inability to and e rstand it.
I am one who recognises, and I think many of our people recognize, thr-1 for three years and a half our Canadian neighbors on the north, common with England and France, were engaged in the fighting of a great struggle which involved tl preservation of our own institutions. 1 as not unmindful of that. Y.e are today fighting side by side with
them for the same purpose. fi'e may go on fighting when they able
are ro longer/to fight, a r d the resalt of our sot ion, if it should be to win victory, will be for their benefit* But we ft re not fighting, for them as net ions, nor they for us as a nati on* V*e are fighting because ae desire to preserve common liberty, a common conception of civilization, ...nd common institutions.
I r. Secretaryp I vould not be charged with being unmind-
2	: ant cons Herat ions t nor do I want this record to impute it *her 1 say that we have very carefullyconsider d and have t. bought it a. patriotic dut to do what ve anticipate doing, for the men of my blood have fought
in every Important war of this country* end the only son J
hive, long past years of conscription, iaraediately tendered
his services and is now an officer in our HationaL Army;
atid the husband of the only df ighter I hrve, though long
p;st years of conscript ion, Immediately tendered his services
and is now, by ray latest advices, an officer consigned fcy
his division chief to assist ana co-operate with the English C-as
and Flane division in the battle of Flanders to ay. f Afflsu--©).
Ho Vi l have s id tl is because 1 want it understood by
the members of this ' ribunal from Canad- that R have no grievance agi inst anything they have ever done in the past; thav. if we offer anything in evidence it; is not to reflect an old sore, a d isa; .ointment, a criticise; I have no patience with t ha t.
daCBaR’AKY I.EBF1EL3):	That is perfectly satisfactory,
Mr. hughes.
I'M. MUGBK3:	It wil be offered simply for the enlight-
enment of those whose duty it will be to look after the welfare of our nation v.hen the time comes for the negotiations which shall result in some permanent arrangement between the
two countries, for it will be their duty to safeguard the •aerie n people an.? not the oeople of Jans da, as it will be the duty of the eminent gentlemen who represent our Canadianneighbor to safeguard their interests.
I believe, ar.d I believe firmly, that so far as this coast is concerned, barring minor things of which as much offense could be said on one side the other, that the very things we shell offer ore evidences of a v»ise national policy# ard if, Er. ecrets.ry, you conceive that we have any other thought, or designed to introduce any other clsos of testimony you re v ry, very much mistaken- 1 endeavored to state in the beginning we should vie?, this mat i or from a brood rational standpoint. I want to reiterate, lest mis-
conceM or: again arise in respect to my attitude, for that people
of the pxi which I represent, which,1 think,when I say these things, 1 j .oaM for the ,eo le, allof them, for no patriotic or generous or liberty-loving set of men exists unless it be of a like class of men who inhabit our northern territory.
I *ant to say, Mr. Secretary, that in presenting these matters we do it because we do it because we do not believe that the policy that must be adopted, that ought to be adopted in the time of TOr(can be the policy that can rationally obtain when the react time comes. ,Our nation must be e distinct nation; our nation must protect its own people. Their interests must be separate as their laws are separate from the people of our neighboring nation. And that nation must make all its laws for the benefit of its people and for the preservation of its own interests and resources. They should be wise, they should be justff t[.ey should not seekto take froa Canada anything that belongs to Canada, nor limit the field of every operation in tbe nide banks to which they have s right of access, but. we should .adopt such policy as will make it certain that America will have the benefit of developing a fishing fleet and its own fishermen to increase the output of American fisheries , fishing hanks, and ’so supply the American people. And w e believe that can be done by such measures as will create fishing villages and plaoes for *he curing and storage and preservation of fish, and for the transportation of fish, adjacent to the fishing banks, 30 that a colony may be had of fishermen in the prose out 2 on of their business.	And	if	you	assume	that we
proo.se to advocate any other policy than that which our neighbor has always deemed a wise one for itself, you have entirely misunderstood our purpose, and I hope that you will not, if there should be anything in any of too evidence that might be suscepiible of another interpretation it is becau e v»e can't extract it from that evidence, and we don't want it there for the purpose of hr v5.ng it considered in any part or critical seme, we oni? as\ that the questions that exe -rab-mitted to U.is Body, '.he evidence that is submitted to this Body and the questions that arise in your minds from that evidence will be the troad questions that involve purely na t i ora 1 interest.
o	Y'., I think perhaps 1 would serve no useful purpose in a more elaborate statement of these matters. I want to saybefore we offer the evidence that we shall offer that in layinp.before you as vividly 83 we can a picture of the fishing resources of the Forth Pacific tributary to our territory of Alaska- In laying be ore you the evidences of the early comparatively slight but rapid development of those fish re3ources in tho esstern portion of fehat regi on, and in the ore-entat ion of the other matters that are to be laid before you# we are endeavoring to present in its entirety the various aspects tlr t, in our op in on0 are and ought to be considered, are to be considered and. ought; to he consider-ed by those charged with the responsibility of tbe Ultimate det raination of American policy with respect to American fisheries.
1 might say that we have in this connect ion soaie testimony to offer regarding the depletion of the halibut banks with respect to the method of restoring those banks.
3i>C5ET ART REDFIiMLD:	That	is a subject in which we
i re very deeply interested, Mr. Hughes.
BUC1U3:	And	in view of the suggestion made by
you, Mr. secretary, if it meets your pleasure, I think perhaps it would be /,ell to spend the rest of the afternoon either with the consideration of that quea' ion, or merely with some evidence tending to explain the maps. Probably there might be sufficient time to cover the one phase of the halibut question we desire to cover, and t bf.t will give usan opporturity to make a critical examination of the evidence t bat we bad assembled with a view of not having in it any matter that aight appear to those less enlightened to have a purpose of a sting or criticism.
3S0EETAMY IMMDPIBLJ:	That will be perfectly satisfactory,
Kr. Hughes. But there ar two very small points that 1 wish you would d isouss bCaL’Qfg we olose for the day, simply because we should like to hear your views upon them before we go to Mrince Bupert, and I want to get information on those particular points, which I think are minor ones and wLich, if you have no object ion, 1 will say what t hey are.
k,E. bUGiiMRi; I wiix answer them if I can, and i±‘ I cannot I will suggest who can answer the® for you.
SKGRwMM"MY HMXiFIElD: I have noticed in printed statements of he past two suggestions made that I would like to know more about. 1 don't know that they are germane to your thought at	all, don't	mean to intrude them	if they are	rot,
b u t t h e Bug ft, est ion ha	s been ma a e a a t o t he	e ffe c t up o n	t he
American fishing industry of what is called the subsidised cold storage plant of the Canadian Government at prince Rupert. 1	?ould like	to get your views,--	when I say I,
I beg your	pardon ----	the Commission would	like to get	your
Views on the effect, if any, ill effect, I mean, if any, of the operation of that plant to th- American fishing interests in any measure. And also the statement has been
44made, I am rot certain just where, that there is in some form a rebate upon transportation made by the Canadian authorities in such a way tb? t Canadian codfish can be made, b; reason of this transportation charge, to undersell AffieriG&c codfish to such an extent as to practically create a monopoly. I am not pretending to state these things with precision, but suggest ---
MB. BUGrHKS:	Upon	the	quo at ion of the cold storage
plant , I will ak a gentleman here when T have responded to tie other question, to explain them to you, what the facts are.
I want in that connect ion to say that while I believe the cold storage plant has be:n subsidised by the Canadian Government, if facts of t b? t kind appear, let me say
I	hope it is true, and I hope that it will be shown in the record as eg object lesson to the United States. in other words ---
3	aC e.MR AI\Y MMPFIEIj:	f here is no quest lor , Hr. Bughes,
as to the fact; I think it is admitted. Don't need sny tes cony as to the fact. What 1 want to know is how it operates adversely, if at all, to American interests.
KR• KUGHFJ:	I will ask M.r. Calvert in a moment to
explain that.
Now, a:- to l be rebet ingj there is another matter t bat mipht have be -n included in your question, Kr„ secretary, and tUt is the matter of duties upon American fish. There is#
34 b
cTI	believe, a specific* duty of one cent a pound, and there 5s
an ad valorem war duty of---------that amounts to, I think, & naif
a cent a pound.
It was my purpose to go into t hat subject as one of the things to bo consider d by th© Commiss ion, or by the Conference, in tr.e settlement of the policy of our nation ult imately in dealing with this quo -M Ion. In other worn.%
novz I think that you sske of ice -------- I do not think you will
dj i sunders t and me--let us consider the question of the free
port and free pwrt privileges, Let us assume the American purpose to build up and maintain an -merlean fishing fleet manned by American fisherman for t ho Alaskan fisheries.
SR.'GKhR IKY r.KDF Ell:	Mr.	Hughes, will yea rardon me?
CHIEF JUhTlCE HASMM:	lou	spoke about an ad valorem
duty, Lr. Hughes. The facts cf the case are, for the purpose of raising taxes for war purposes an increased duty of a certain amount is placed on evA-ry art.icle that coses into Canada. it is part of a general policy to raise war nmds.
It doesn’t -pply to fish any i -ore than to anything else.
IeB. HUGHES:	I understood that, but it becomes
significant upon this subjeot. I say, let U3 assume now the purpose of the United Stares to buiia p her own fishing fleet, managed by her own fishermen, operated from her own fisi.ing centers, or villages, or ports, for the benefit of the American people a far as possible, vow, we have the natural and the legitimate competition of British Columbia on the south*bsvin^ the same rights we have outside f the three-mile
lhr.it off our territory and the same rights we have, plus
tie territory within the three-mile limit opposite their own,
They may go to any American port, if they want to fish off X
of the Aloskan coast they may obtain their supplies end clear directly for the fishing grounds, they may return with their catch of fish and unload it at the American port, and have it picked up by a steamer or some vessel whose business it will be to gsther up the catches, then go back at once to the fishing grounds, and thus prosecute conti nuoualy the fisoing business. When it concludes it may return to
Prince Rupert. whatever fish it has caught may be sold for free delivery into the United States* may also be sold
for x'l oe delivery into the markets of Oan&da. It will be elded by the rebate in transportation of the railroads to thoue Canadian markets, and it will be aided *y the tariff imposed------the differential of the tariff in its favor im-
posed upon American fish in competition; that is, it will t-o\a u benefit of having the exclusive Canadian market*
I' will h-.ve £.1 o the subsidy paid, I believe, to the
American fishing boats, and --------
Cl. 1.M JU C X I 0J2 j'ATMM:	Oh	no,	there	is no subsidy there.
m. ?0OTP:	Bounty.
CHILI* JUS?ICS HAShK:	Fot	on	the	Pacific	Coas-,	and
it ainount*: to nothing on the Atlantic.MB. K>¥ND:	It	amounts	to nothing on the Atlantic
Go p. si. '■ n d doesn't apply on the faoifio.
MB* HUGE!M3:	Then	it will not receive, of oout e ,
any sid fro® that source. It will have the two advantages, plus whatever advantages there be in t he maintenance of a subsidized cold storage plant at prince Rupert.
SEC: MTABY Ri£.DFIELi):	fait a moment, Mr. Hughes.
I don't think that 1? quite equitable. There is a little inference tbere ---
HR. HUGHES:	If	you	will let me complete my illustration
SEC. JSMiBT HSDFI1L R:	If you will only say what plus the
ad vant age, if any.
KM. HU QE&B:	xe	s, I a m q ui t e wi 11 ing fc o meke t hat
qualification. I don't mean to make 8 ny extreme or radical statement. 1 wani^'to be understood that 1 am not wishing to speak in anything but a most open way*Xn attempting to la these matters before you extemporaneously language might be construed sometimes to be more emphatic than the speaker intends it to be.
lake the American fisheries, it is from the same Alaskan village, or port, it clears for the fishing banks, it returns, leads its fish, takes on its supplies, and they are transported ultimately, its product of the season's work transported ultimately to Prince Rupert a the nearest point, and thence Io the markets of the United states, few* Itcannot enter ■ Ln Gan&dian market without payment of the duty
caught
upon the ameriofc ' fish. They are oaagbt vtrAer precisely the same conditions, t: bey are caught from the same banks # the fishing vessels are supplied from the saae port, we will day. they unload at the same port, clear and return to the same port, and yet the American fisherman has one market, the Canadian has the same market, with all the advantages of that market plus another market from which tbo Arner,1 can fisherman is excluded.
SMCMMRART RSWIELB; Mr. hushes, what percentage of the Canadian catch of fish is sold in tbe Canadian market?
M?.. HUSK.•;;3 :	Well, 1 wouldn* t undertalee to say t hat.
1 think that at least one of t he witnesses that we will produce before you will be able to give you that Informs ion. I am not advised on that.
BBCRrMRAHY KMFIELD:	Is !t not a fact that a very large
percent*. **9 of the Canadian catch is sold In the markets of the United states?
MM. 1IUQEH3:	Yes; yes, on both coast a I think.
CEOMKTAEI FEDFIETM):	Are you prepared to say, es a
matter of fact, that under existing conditions that there vould be any market whatever, any appreciable market whatever in Canada for the catch of American fishing vessels even if there were no duty?
MM. MUGEEJi:	\\ell, l don't think anyone can answer a
question oi th- t nind ? : an absolute fact,, but business men tell ire, that is the information I h* ve, and I think it maybe well to ask them to apeak upon those subjects to you.
We will try feo select men who are broad-minded and very fair if we call upon th©i to apeak upon a subject that, unless it is dealt with in t nat spirit, might involve features we wish, of cour a & to eliminate. But business men of that character tell me that that differential is quite sufficient to afford such a bandic&p as baa tended rapidly in the past to bring about the transference of registration from American to -Canadian vessels. 1 must ask them to speak upon the subject, [r. Secretary, and not ask me to do it. But I think there will be evidence as to just what are the facts on this coast in our evidence we have already assembled.
SECEETABY EEPIfiKJuD:	l only want to say this, that
all the testimony, without exception, taken thus far before the Com ission vould show that there is not sufficient exist-i np #iah ing j. 1 ant s, 0 a rad i an, iUte r i oa n. Pre nc h, IT e wf o undla nd, and any other that is available, to supply anything like tho demand of the 'merican market alone.
kH* hUGBj&S:	That	is	quite true. Tha t has been the
basis, at lea M one of the underlying bases, of my entire argument of presentation here^ ana it is the iea.?;on why wre have urged that this .government must take steps to aid in the development of it 3 own fishery resources. But it never i heleu - will tc true t hat whatever the market ia^ Mr. 'ieci taryf I he uhn who has a favor, can make more profit thanthe otber man, and if the other aan is selfish and can avail bimself of the same advantage is likely to transfer his register to the country which most favors him.
3MCIu.T AHY BiDF 11 LI. :	That is a mat ter of faet,
you know, and we have before ishere all fe he transfers of Auer loan vessels of that character, we have got them all before us were in print.
MB. EUGrKES:	Well, if we may we will examine them.
TS?e don’t want to duplicate your record for you.
SKCli&E-iH* BKBFIIL]):	It is on page 371.
1RR. ;-.UGu .3:	will have the opportunity before
you return to oon^-re our evidence with what is before y&u*
T tie re is no use of our duplicating in your record matters
already before you. Will Mr. Calvert answer the other
question propounded by the Secretary?
3R‘ ATEMSKT BY WILLIAM OALVEHP, Jfi. ;
■ jsai • mim am an* co., seas?’?le, wash.
3MCIMR. AMY SEDFIELD:	Till you kindly state what is
your business?
MM. CATVM.K?:	1 m engaged in the fishing business.
3KCI..,Rr A3Y RSDFIEir-:	In	what way, Mr. Calvert?
HR. CALV..KT:	In	canning and handling .fresh fish busi-
ness, purchasing halibut. Vve have a plant here, we have a branch at prince Hupert, one at Ketchikan, and a cold storageplant at deward, Alaska,
SMCHFM'AEY FRaBPIEL 3:	Very	glad	to	bear fror., you, Mr.
(divert.
! E* C AIV.:■;KT :	Tbe ®at ter of these open ports be tween
fishing vessels, froa a practical, aomzoercial, operative point of view* from the American standpoint ss between ^.aer ioa and Cargo a at the present time, has some objections, one of which is due to the policies of the two countries as regards, of course, the tariff.
Now, the situation would be simply this, as far as w? re concerned, operating; «e have the American m rket, buu due so toe duty,which is your regular duty and your war tax, your duty of a cent a pound and ^our war tax, which amounts to praotiaally half a cents pound, on halibut,
I am s eaking of, it excludes us from the Canadian market.
In other words, we handle halibut on an average gross of approximately a cent and a half a pound. That cent and a half differential against us in the Canadian market operates to exclude us al a ost entirely lyon the Canadian market. ?low, that may not, see a; very much aa to the- quantity, but the difference between the concern operating at a profit and operating at a loS3 is sometimes a very slight one, and it gives the Canadian operators just this advantage, that they can sell
to their own r.arket, as has been done in the past.-------------------
I am not criticising tie >? st#----------but would be done underthese present regulations and sold in our market at a price th* t ^e could not compete w?th# or if we did we would sell rW oost, or below cost, and they could make the profit in tueir own market.
Nov., you give any wide-awake business an tfeat advantage, and 1 don’t care if it is only one-tentb of ten per cent, from tfc t up to twenty per cent, of the total volume of bis business, and if be wants to he can put the other fellow out of business. How, thofc must follow, if he wants to do it.
Tbat. Is exactly the situation that we are up against in operating under t be existing conditions, with open ports* presuming that is In effect now, due to that duty on toe fish in Canada.
CMIi ? JUS ICE LiAMaM:	If that duty was removed, Mr.
Calvert, would you make large sf.Ios in Canada?
LjR. CAIVM.BT:	We would make & good many sales in Canada?
We nave made quite a number of sales in Canada. We have sold to Montreal, Ontario end Winnipeg carload, lots, fe have sold from here at times when they couldn't supply it from prince tfupert or Vancouver.
Chi JUSRICR KA3EM:	Wall now, at those t iraes when
tbey can t supply it that way don't the Canadian consumers have to pay the duty?
MB- 0A1VKF" :	Tbey do, yes sir.
Cb IP JU MI CM hAZh IT:	Yes, the Canadian consumer pays
the duty.
1H. CLVMKI:	Yes sir. But those are only special timeswhen, for same reason or other, we happen to have a little sup-ly here and they have been short of a supply up there, but that would OGCur maybe a few times in a year* -ther
times ---- we have any amount of correspondence down there
where we would quote them, in these different cities and they will say, "Well, your price is a half a cent, or cent, too high on account of the duty we have to pay." ,fe would be in a position to compete with it were it not for that duty, at a time when w# could realize a better price in 0anada than we could in the United States. It is just that differential that gives the advantage tc the Can- dian fisheries, and which is today building up the fisheries of prince Rupert Mid Vancouver to the detriment of the Seattle fisheries. Tte Seattle flsheri s today are not doing £5 Per cent of what they should do, and that is one of the b iggast reasons, or that hf 3 the moat effcct, due to that differential .
How, it seems to me that is not viewed on a broad basis of equality. if *e are going to have open ports in Canada for American vessels and open ports in America for Canadian vessels, then the only equitable proposition is to put us on an equality in every way. Certainly it is not going to be equal if we are going to have our markets open to them to compete v*ith us when they want and their Markets cloned to us. If our market to them their market aioaxd be open to us.CHIMF JUSTICE iA&iSII:	Of	course	it is open to your
Qovemment if they see fit at any time to place duty upon Canadian fish going into your country?
•3. GAIYR.KT:	I said tbet in the first place, due to
the policies of the two governments we are not working on an equal ity.
OKI ? JU3MICE i-AZL'r:	Would you favor, let me ask ^ou.
would you favor an arrangement, if s treaty is entered into under which, for the period that Is covered by thn treaty,
10	or 15 years, there should be free admission of fish into each country from the other country?
I£K. CAITLBf:	Mr.	Ghief	Justice, that is n very large
question. That quest ion involves a great many things that x think should be considered from the viewpoint of the united States.
LIE. 3».MMT :	let me ask you a question. "Would you favor
a reciprocal tariff which would be aalike for both countries and free ports to ve sels of each country? In other words, whatever tariff they charge, whatever duty, we charge the Sa uc , oui. t ing t hem on t he basis of equalit y?
MM. CALVMBT :	Yes sir, I would, and then i t is every
man for himself.
MTM 3WSKT:	Reciprocity, then?
LH. CALVE HI!:	Yes	sir.
ChlhF JU2RICK RARMIT:	You	would	favor	that	rather than acondition that it would be admitted free to each country?
MR. CALVEST :	Ho	sir.
SLOmRvJAKI BEDJflhl What you want is a fifty-fifty arrangement?
m* CA1VEB5?:	Yes	sir.
MB. 3rtK.iT:	whatever it might be?
HE. CALTEB3:	Yes sir. 1 don't care whether it is duty
on or duty off, but put us on an equality. Then we can bold our own, and if not, all right*
SEG3:.i£TARY HE. Flail):	How	I	wish you would state, and
I appreciate your very clear statement. To what extent, really and in sober fact, the markets of Canada, if freely opened, would afford an outlet for fish caught by American
vessels ----- 1 don t mean to say in pounds or dollars -—
but whether it is large or small or otherwise.
MR-. GA RVaHT:	Well, Mr. Secretary, you refer, 1 think,
to the humpbacks now?
hSMCa^R AKY B&JPIEU:	Oh,	to	anything.	This	is	what	is
in my mind, -----
RB. CALVES?:	To	the	pacific	Coast	fish	you	mean? I don’t
know anything about Atlantic Coast fish.
.MaCIMMR * MY ? tiPF TEL R:	Oh,	of	Pacific	Coast	fish, of course.
£better thor- really is,corsideridg the size of the two countries ard bearing in mind the difference ir the oonsumption of i: 1 sb, v.bioh is in Canada two-thirds greater than our own per capita, whether there really is a sufficient amount of
356exclusive to be a serious matter.
MB. GAIVEET:	Yes	sir.	As	far	&s	regards	the	fresh
fish industry oi the pacific Coast it is a f-ctor. It is a big enough factor to eventually throw ell of the business in fresh fish of the Pacific* Coast east of the Missouri Elver to Canada.
3ECMETABY HEDFISLB:	Well, why is that so?
RR. OALVMMT :	Simply from t Le faot thr- t 1 have stated*
tl ere ere sev rai things to consider- One is* any trade will follow the line of least resistance. At present Canada,
- rinoe Bupert ia particularly fortunate in the way of trans-rortation in offering tne line of least resistance. in other v ordt , th aost economical wa; at. present of market! rig the product. Mo?;, we have to largely overcome that ae ratioh as we oan, although \%e are operat ing a branch at .Prince Bupert, and have a -station there. But due to the fact thst they have a cold storage plant and are more or less a Government insti-tut ion they have quite a little advantage over us.
CEC .IMT.ABY RiRDFIMLD:	Why is it duo to that fact?
•	M. CRMvRRKT:	R,ell, here is one thing thr*t happened just
in the last ^eek:.	There wrs a slide on the railrosd, the
tr~irs 7,ero ^11 tied up for severs! days, probably a week or ten days. mite a lot of fish eeme in there. we couldn’t st'ip, neither could anyone else, but the cold storage company could freeze <*11 that fish.SMOMiiS .1 Eifi JFIELjP:	Well, couldn’t they freeze your fish,
too?
MR.	CA WMHf :	WBll,	they never have.
3SCBKTABY EEDFIELD:	Sell,	have you asked	1m® to4'*
KB. CATRVRMST:	Yes, we cave	asked them to,	but on a	case
of this kind they are only supposed to freeze our fish when they have the opportunity to, when they are not filled up with tr.eir own; >nd, of course, under these conditions, .■ hey would be f j 11 £ 3 up w it»h t he ir own.
SbCMMlHEy EcDFU^LD:	What do you moan by that, they would
deliberately arrange --------
MM .	C'MVMHT:	They	would	pur a base	the	f isb9	yes. ffow,
it	is all right to theorize, ] r.	secretary* but	when you	come
down	to business as between firms and individuals, it is	a cold-
blooded proposition.
3KCHKTAKY EEJ3FIELD:	You mean to say that under those
circumstances the a*. or *e company would rot purebase your materiel, so that,	ae © mj.tter	ox feet,	you	woul 1	be left out?
ME*	CALTi.IrT :	Mb*1	is it	exec11 v,	yon	sJr.	Tbe same thing
occurred, that tb'-.rc w 8 r shortage of ice. They would naturally aupily themselves, so would be if we were in their place.
Ho eioept5oi taken to it. Of course, they would look out for themselves first; it is only natural that Maey should; we expeot th«E to.
Oi IMP JUBTICi'j iiA^L T:	If I understand you, Mr. Calvert,,you say this fish Game into Prince Bupe.rt, fish would come in t Lst were caught or American vessels, and fish that were caught or: Canadian vesselsV
HR. CAT.YBBT *. Yes, sir.
(33.1; F JUSTICE a&ZW:	There would be a block on the
railway, it is necessary to preserve that fifth, to put it in cold storage. You say trie cold storage company would discriminate against you and take the other fish fish and then fill up their oold storage plant and it would be so full they couldn’t t ake ycurs?
MB. CMjVTeKT t They would take their own fish or -—
Ch'll P JUSTICE H :-,MH:	When you speak 'f their own fish ,
do M e.T have their own vessels nnR; catch fish for t hprnselves?
MR. C MV.RKT:	Yes sir, u bey have their own vessels, and
also buy on the open market.
3 MIR	f JUR ’ 10 Jg liAZ	:	therefore, naturally, i	would
preserve	their own fish	fish?
MB. CAITLHT:	Yes sir.
CaI..F JUSTICE R-: zm:	And	that is, of course, in con-
nect! on w1th t be ir bus innss?
MR. CALVERT-:	Yes.
OHIMF JUdTIGi. EA3K3T:	What is there ; o prevent you from
building h oold storage ciant there if |ou want to?
LK.	C/ LVaHT:	Hot	biig at all,	excepting	we are	under a
h( ndicep	the toinute me	do, because	they have	a less	capital
invented than ?.’e io because of subsidy by the government.11B. MAM2F:	You	know	the Government of Canada gives
a certs in amount of money to anyone who erects a cold storage
pli.-nt in any part of Canada under conditions that are approved
and
of, I think, b;. the Department of Agriculture; is t be re anyti ing to prevent you forming a Canadian company and erecting a cold storage plant there ant applying for a subsidy under t ha t Acc f
MM* C A MVSBT:	fell,	1	presume	not.
3	MY JMaMPlMLI):	In other words, is it not a fact
I bat vou could organize the Calvert Cold Storage Company ano get precisely the same aid from the Canadian Government which the Canadian cold storage company has?
IM. ♦ C /■ ' v EHT :	Mr. 3 o c ;r e t a ry, no % in t be pa s t, Poasib ly
under the present regulation of open ports for vessels we could, but not in the past, because w# couldn't hsre gone in tbere.
SEGHBTAHZ RMDFIELB:	let'o stick right to the resent..
Oh IR ? JUS1 TIC . K A; i-uF:	An d i t m i g b t depend , Mr. secret a ry,
on whether the oold stortnp plant gives i&juu facilities enough, then, of course, the Government wouldn't give subsidy to another.
♦	MRlMrD:	The	plf	nt	that is built under the Cold
3torw;r Act is a public cold stor ge warehouse and must be available to those doing bu Ines* in itf arfl if you have demanded ar.d or- n sbow us evidence tfcr-t the cold otorop.e plant
A 6 *3st Prince Rupert has refused to accept fish for you, even at the expense of taking its own fish out of its own a oil storage place, it would be interesting to the Department
of Agriculture.
M3. CALVMET:	I	understand	that.	These	thinge in
/■
t heory are very r.i oe.
3MCMMR EY HMDFIELD:	pardon	me,	Mr. Oalvers, you can’t
avoid a cone 1us}on quite In that way, You are lound to face not 11cory, but faot,
LI. CAaVMK?:	Yes, s1r.
SRCMMTARY MMDFIMoD:	Sere	is	a	company,	and	let	us be
j.ist now, perfectly unbiased and fair, here is a public oompany boui d by law * o take, a a a common carrier must take, all com-mer-.e. Mow, 1 gather from you, or you say frankly that th don't tre?, t all customers alike, Bow, then, two questions become, tmrefore, very pertinent. .First ^have you asked t linger Mese conditions? And 1 understood you to say no?
MX. CALYBKT:	Fo sir, 1 have not.
SeJj CtMMY RMMF ILL:	And second, until you have asked
-no teen refused have you any ground for complaint?
I.H. CALTEBT:	Yes,	we	have.
---* | 8$----------
because you observe you have the official statement before you now, the 3uperintendent of ?1s her ioa of C&nada, that they are bound to treat all customers alike by law, and if they do rot so do the matter will be given immediate attention
RU'Vi s J \> JLby t be G-ovemmenfc. How, did you know that fact before?
13.. CRMVaKT :	I knew that they were under obligations,
yes, sir, to take any outside cold storage if asked to do so ,
and they had tfae rsqaired facilities.
SISGKJSTAET BKDFIM.LD:	Ob, but Mr. Found s©Id they would
be obliged even to discharge thsir own fish, in order to tate yours in.
3SR. 0RM7aBT: Did I understand that rights?
HI,. ^OlTTTl;:	ft ell, will state it- is my understanding,
? bav© not the regulations with me at t he moment, but it is my understanding that 8 public cold storage plant iMr'IijLO ;0 X "V ^3 preference o the public. ®/en at the expense of its own bus 5 ness.
KB. C ' ' VRLl :	I- r. Secretary, you know, as I said
before, businesscold-blooded proposition. i;r. Johnson, who runs	that cold	storage plant	up th^re, would put red
tape	on the map so	long tbat our	fish would be	rotten	and
used for fertilizer before we woul3 ever get into that cold storage plant. Fow, those are facts.
£MGrM7AKT H&3)FIaIM>:	That is what we want to binow.
MR.	C'YMMM1:	1 don't care anything about	theory	or
any t b 2 ng o 1 s e ; that i 3 a fo 31.
CRJRF JUST I CI‘ HA2KE:	You say ae would, do so?
I-.IR.	(M'7MKM :	Yes, sir.
CMIMM JU3? ICM EA;‘wM :	Has bo don© so?
o1
13. C RMYMMC:	Ho has In the mats ter of ice in the past.
Chen we wanted ice, on© year there was quite a shortage of ice up there, and we couldn't get it because he only had enough for his own vessels. Ice is just as much Matter of cold storage as cold storage is.
Gala? JUBT1GM H.A2EM:	I	want to remind you, you are
going to have an opportunity to face this gentleman and answer his questions, end follow this closely, Now, you definitely assert he has done that sort of thing with ice definitely to your 3etr1mont?
MR. OAI.VRBT:	Yes, sir, that is a matter of record.
CHIEF JUSTICE EA2BH:	All right, that is what we want,
lib. BABCOCK:	Mr. Secretary, you e^preased n desire
yesterday to get the parties in controversy face to face to talk it out. I was in prince Rupert during the time the railroad wa- blocked and the 260,000 pounds of halibut lay at she wharf, and the prices, the market, hesitated all dey. 1 wa tehee? the market for hours that day. when the fish were purchased it wag an agreement between you and the Canadian Fish end Cold Storage Company, nnd everybody els., as to what that price should be. Your man, Mir, Johnson's mar, end every other buyer at that time, were ?• unit as to what «hoy would pay, and you paid and t. bay 'oeid identically the s me price, and agreed amongst yourselves as to wh: t part of tno Q'^rao you would tahe ani they would take. And I can say, to , tfctt 1 was at the cold storage plant the day the
363break was announced, wten there was no place there, and
Hr. Johnson's »jan------- r. Johnson was not in Pi inee Rupert
at the time, bat,I was told,at the prince Rupert place that sbey bad an abundance of storage for all the fish that the trawlersnanight bring in and were awaiting that apace to get the fish to use it.
W. L* CLAHK; May I ask one question. Do the requirements of Canadian law involve that the Canadian Fish & Cold Storage Company must freeze fish that are in bond, or only Canadian fish?
Ran. ''OUFD; My understanding is, and 1 speak now subject to correct ion later on0 of what i said, as J am speaking from memory, and not having recently referred to the Regulations, but my understanding is that a cold storage plant built under the cold storage Act must give preference to tbe public, and that it isn't a matter of bonded fish or fish for tbe loc^l business, it is a matter for doing tbe business for tbe public.
SECRETARY MM,JIKLR:	lr. Pound, will youpleas©, while
vre	are on our trip r?orth, secure a copy of	the	Humiliations
and make them a matter of record, please?
IRK. FG13FJ):	Yes, sir, I will. If I hove	not	them	in
try	grip I wili. telegraph for t bom tonight.
MM. 0 R \¥.K:	The quest ion firose in my mind as to pre-
ference being given to t ho public, whether iu means thepublic? in Canada or outsiders?
ME. FOUND:	That	is	not my understanding. It means the
general public.
SECRETARY	HEDFIELJ:	That ,	1 take,it, Mr, Clark,	will
be a	matter of	record and will be perfectly easy, and	I assure
you the Commission will endeavor to obtain actual facts frocs the	records of	t be company when	we get them.
Now, we have got precisely	such a caaehere as we	had
in the East or the a oat of building ships and outfitting ships; but everybody came, everybody came to say all they knew, there wasn't anything left out: it disappeared into thin air.
Now, Hr. Calvert, as I see it, your position is this* that you	didn't ask to have your fish frozen, so you	stated?
MR#	CALVMBf:	fell, Mr. Secretary, 1 have been	in
Prince Rupert, I	met	Mr. Johnston,	who	is the manager of that
plan,, and l had	the	report of my	men	there, the superintendent
was up there, be	was	the one that	was	up there several years
ago and the one thf-t	is up there now,	and 2 honestly believe-------
1 believe 3 am stating a fact, when I say that J think it would be Impossible for us to get one pound of fish in that cold storage plant. And l would like to ask Hr. Babcock, in the distribution of that fish, that 260,000 pounds, how much the cold storage got and how much we got?
MB.	BABCQC3£;	i can't answer the question. I do	know that
when the	purchases	were made that I heard the buyers	say you	getsuck and such vessels, I get such and such veasels, you get such and suoh, an.; tbey agreed that tt&t was right9 and the skippers that were delivering to the Canadian Fish and cold Storage began to move their ships away from the docks and began to go up there and you began to unload.
3ECHETABY HEDFISU):	Mr. Oalverfc , what was t he name
of your branch in Prince Kupert?
ME.	0AJ.7SET:	The Pacific	Fisheries.
SEC'RKTABY EEDPIELX):	And	what	is	t	he	name	of	your
superintendent there?
MB.	CAI.VEBT :	Mr. Charles	Stuart.
BEOI-ETAKY REDF1EL3:	And will your records not show the
fact, as to whether fish was or was not frozen for you at that t ime?
MB. CALVERT:	Yes	sir.
8wCM.MlRAHY BBDFIBU):	And	have	you	any	objection	to	those
records being placed before the Commission?
ME. OALYls'KT:	Be glad to have them.
SiiCKKTAHY Br. DP IBID:	And have you any objection to Mr.
Robertson testifying before the Commission?
1®.	0 A1VE BT :	Mr. 31 ua. r t ?
.CRM akv W»Wmm; :	Mr. Stuart, I beg ycmr pardon.
IRK-	CALV&RT:	Ho, sir, none.
3RICBET ABY HEJXPIKIiI-:	And	have	you	any	objection	t	ohis
being confronted with the officer of the Canadian "Pish and Cold Storage Company?HH. CRIVMHT:	Get	all	the	information be baa to give.
SSORSTAET KoDFIEU:	fhat	is perfectly satisfactory.
MI-.. CALYMHT:	Personally	I	am interested in seeing this
thing put on a broad, equal basis, that’s all J mr.t. That is ail we want in the way of competition, give us a broad, equal, even chance. If we can’t compete, all right; if we can't, let us go down and out and go into something else.
That is all 1 am looking for in handling this business.
And there is one thing more that 1 think should be
considered by this Commission* In taking-----------this is a big
question-----one is, we have not the food supply that tiiany
people think, fish food supply, on this coast, du© to the fact that we have no jreat continental shelf, while they have on t :.e Atlantic Coast and off the western Goast of Europe. ue have a few fish here, we have the salmon, we have the halibut, ---
.MR. HUGHES:	.Speaking	of	the western coast of the
United -states?
MR. 0 \MVMRT:	Yes.	I think you understood that?
SECRHEASY KKDFIKU):	Yes, I understood that.
E. C‘rVMMM When we get through with those two fishes, or fish, we have very little left until we; get away up where you can see it outlined as to the continental shelf of Alaska.
ow then, in considering this, we heve this to consider, viewed froio an American at] int, and fro. * rioan interests:Conceding thst tbe Canadians, with all respect to them, and
1 honor them-------I ms b-rn in Canada ssyself-----------are going to
look out for their own interests. we furnish off the coast of Alaska, the waters adjacent to the ooast of Alas Isa # that is, going to furnish in the future* a large amount of fish that is going to be consumed at least in the western part of the united states. The prospects are that we are going to furnish the capital, the United states is to exploit those fisheries. Then we ere furnishing the market for the consumption of them. How, those three factors are big ones in determining who should maintain and control those fisheries. That's why 1 say this matter of an open port for Canadian vessels and kmes ican vessels is a big question for this ooast to consider at this time. And if it is to be thrown open to all, then it should be, and the only way that it will workout will be on an absolute equitable basis for all concerned.
3ECMETAHY HMDPIEU:	I	think you are quite right about
that. Dr. Smith wants to ask you a question.
DH. SMITH:	Just for incorporation in the record in
connection with what ,you already said, 1 would like io inquire whether the cold storage facilities at rrince BupeSrt for halitut awaiting shipment are restricted to those afforded by this particular cold storage company in question?
IME. C MRVRMRI :	I	didn't	quite got that, poet or?
DM. 3.£LrRn:	Does this Canadian col i storage company at
«it>8Prince Rupert afford the only facilities for the storage of halibut awaiting shipment?
ME. CAMVMRT:	Yes,	sir,	I	think	so.
DM.	oMTJMrl:	Mone of the other firms which have	gone in
there, quite a number of American firas, I believe, have cold storage facilities of their own?
K£. T5ARYMBT:	JTo,	what they	have is	just fish	houses
that can hold the fish in ice for a short period of time, but not to cold	storage the product to the extent of	freezing
it so it	can be	carried indefinitely.
SKCLETABT BSDFIEU :	Than*	you,	Rir.	Calvert.
MR. EUGRaS:	Mr.	Secretary,	2 just	wanted to	say a word.
3M CM hT ARY RhRDF I2C LC :	X want	to hear a no t h e r w it ness,	if
possible.
Eli. HU GEMS:	1 really wanted t-o identify certain exhibits.
ShCHMTAKI iM&DJPILLM:	All right , follow your own line.
Mh.	fiUGrhiiS:	1	called attention to the article	of Hr.
harpell, and i fre Secretary has asked me for a copy of it.
It was my intention to put it in evidence as an exhibit, and along with it an editorial from the Canadian Fishery.
1 intended to call attention to it in answer to certain interrogatories propounded by you, Mr. Secretary, but it will be before you for 3orsid ration, and it takes the view that I announced, that tue fisheries constitute the breeding ground of the merchant mar ine.
*	- W Me.Mj:	I	thinM I remember the editorial.KR. EUCHE3:	And I think it might be well to have it in
your files together with the article of Mr. H&rpell,
3LCRETMBY EM3FIEMD:	Together with any other papers
you wish us to consider.
UK. HUGHES:	Well,	we will reserve until your return
the introduction of our documentary proof and our other test imony.
SECRBTAHY HBODFIMLD; Yes. low, 1 would be glad to have another witness, if you have one here.
STATMMK.ITT BY KR. G. J. SBBASTIAJJ,
UMMPUAtt fliSBlIBS CO.,
SECRETARY HEDFIKLD:	What	is your business, Hr.
Sebast ian?
Kit • 3 ii.BR bl I AM:	Wholesale fish.
SECi&SABY HEDFIBTM :	here	in Seattle?
MR« SKBASTIAM:	Yes,	sir.
SMCMMIARY BEDFIELD:	Very	glad to hear from you, Hr.
Sebast ian.
MM- 3J£BAl3TIA]ff:	Why, just to bring out the question
th t you asked of 'r. Calvert here a short time ago. 1 either directly or indirectly, a number of years ago, applied for rates nnd thj privilege of storing fish in the cold storage 3 lant of s !'p Canadian Fish and Cold storage Company at PrinceRupert, and after some little delay why, I got the .information I wanted which, namely, was the rates and the amount of work that had to be done, andthe charges and so forth and so onff which were exorbitant. And what clinched the matter and n.ade it absolutely impossible for any of the firms to store fish there was the fact they would not acknowledge any responsibility; in other words, they said "We will take your fish at such and such a figure and you must perform all the labor, pay for the labor at so much an hour and all this and that, v.hich made it exorbitant, and then they went on .fihd said, **but we will not assume any responsibility whatsoever for the fish, as to what happens to it," which absolutely prevented anyone from doing business there, if they would not assume any responsibility. In other words, you can put your fish in there,but if we neglect it and it spoils on you you have got to take it that way.
SMCMETABY HKDFIKlB:	How, you let roe ask you a question
or two there as to the usal practice of cold storage companies that handle fish. Is it the fact that in ordinary African practice dr.y cold storage company will accept responsibility for the condition of fish?
MR. 3KBASTIAH:	They will guarantee to keep it at the
prop or temperature, am that is the proper way to keep it, and it will keop thet way.
13;. KM J?IMLwould not the Canadian 3*ish and Cold btorr e Company agree to keep it at the proper temperature?ME. SSBMBTIAH:	Guarantee	nothing.
SECRETARY EaSFIKIi):	You	want	the Commission to under-
stand, and possibly .inquire into it when we reach there, of tee fact of a definite difference in treatment or: the part of this company and other companies doing a similar business, is tot the faot, Mr. Sebastian?
MB* 3£B 3TIAH:	Why, yes, at that time,in talking it
over with Mr. Johnson at that time, we decided it would be absolutely impossible to store fish there for that very reason, and we were storing it at other places.
3EGHST;RY REDPIELP; And under different conditions in other places?
MR. SEBASTIAN:	Why,	yes,	they	assumed responsibility.
All re public cold storages here in the United States, at least those I have done business with, they assume the responsibility of keeping the fish at the proper temperature so it won’t deteriorate.
SECRETARY RMDFIELJ:	That	isn't	quite the same thing,
is it? 1 don't know, but 1 want to find out. As I understand, your first statement was they wouldn't accept any resDonsibility for the condition of the fish, and the other statement is that the com- anie: here will assume a responsibility for keeping it absolutely at a certain temperature. How, do I understand that there was a definite difference in treatment on the part of this company from others?LM. dn £ A 3T1AI?:	Ob yes, a great difference.
SiiOI-iSI’ARY RBMIEIO):	A	difference?
MR* SEBASTIiH:	Yes.
SiSCBJTARY RBWIEID:	3o	that	you could do business
in one way Vvith one company here, say in Seattle, and could not do business with that company there in the sbis way?
M3. 3EBAS?IAH :	In	other words, the statement they made
at that time ------ I think it was made in writing, and might
be found in the files at this time, although it has beer-
several yesrs ago--------was made in such a way that anyone that
had any amount of money involved and wanted to tie it up in fish, they couldn't do i&i it under those circumstances, because it left too much of & loop-hole for the other man to put you out of business. In other words, they say, "Why, you can put your fish in here, but you take all the respon-ilifry and we won't guarantee, the machinery might break, and so forth end so on.” In other words, I took it as a threat "You better keep your t ish out of here."
SECRETARY RE DPI ELI):	Do	you know whether the terms
that they offered you were or were not the same that they offered to all of the people?
IM . 3MB/3TIATT:	Well, I didn't know whether they offer-
ed any other terms to anyone else.
Sj-iOMKf 'BY HED?IELD:	The point I was tryinp. to get et
w- s Vihether there wes discrimination against you because of you heing an American, or wbethei s Cfn^dian customer did not
37 3enter under precisely the same basis as yourself?
MB. 3MBASTliy:	Sell, at that tIme ------ I don't believe
at that time tbey were free2 ing fish for anyone but them* selves.
I&R. 3WEST :	When was it? What is the :lat©9
KB. iEBAoTXAN:	Why,	I think that was about year before
last.
DR. SMITH:	I infer from wh&t you say, Mr. Sebastian,
this episode was probably the subject of documentary evidence and that you ear. put your hand on any correspondence you nay have bad bearing on this subject?
11M. SM. B A 3 CI All:	fell,	the r e- a son I woul an U g ua ran tee
f
anythin?; like that, is this, that at that time I was with the international Independent Fisheries Company and since then I bave left their employ.
SECRETARY REDFISId):	Are they located in Seattle?
KB. 3M2Mi?JAH:	Yes,	they	are	located in Seattle, and J
imagine they could get that documentary evidence out of their files.
M iRRRMY KaDPlhLB; ITow, Mr. Quigley, make a note to call upon the International Independent .Fisheries Company for the rccords of their correspondence with the Canadian Fish and Cold Storage Company tear ins upon the matter of which you speak, and opon our return we will ask them here to produce the correspondence. Are you represented ir. prince Bupert?
374MB. S MBA ST 1 AN :	TTo	t	a t the proa en t t i me.
SOCKETABY BEMFIELM::	Do	you	know	who	the	person	was
in the Canadian company that was familiar with these facts?
HR. 3MB. SRI AH; Why, Mr. Be mb off was the manager in Prince Rupert of the International Fisheries Company at that time, and still is.
dECRgTAHY RKDIflEXI):	Is	there	now?
MB. 3 MSA of I AM:	He	is either there or in Ketchikan,
but I imagine he is there. He is in Ketchikan now, 3 understand .
SMCMMTAKY RSDF1ELP:	Dr.	smith,	will	you	please	make
a careful note to call Mr. Bernhoff as a witness to testify to these facts, and I assure yuu, Hr. Sebastian, we will take this matter up with the officers of the CanadianFish and Cold Storage Company and trace it to the bottom, we shall be very gl&d if you will attend our meetings on our return so we may inform you of what we learned in the *?ort;h.
Hr. Calvert is going with us, by the way, so he will have an opportunity in person to pet -------
MM. PROWN:	He is not going, Hr. Secretary.
3MCI KT \,Y REDF1ELD:	1 am very sorry. Well, upon our
return you will have an opportunity to know what we learned
on it.
375SaASKmsht by m- mdwih j. mow,
1608 I. 0. SMITH BUI“DI5G, SLAT’TL^, WASH, (lawyer)
MR. BHOYiH:	1	would	like	to make a statement at this
time, Mr. Secretary. You asked the question in regard to the privilege of erecting cola storage or freezing plants by an American company up ihere. 1 understand on perfectly good authority that in 1915 tbe Booth Fisheries Company made a$.11-catior for a site for a big ice house there.
CHIEF JUSTICE KAZi'JT:	Who	to?
MH. BHOivM :	To t he Grand Trunk pacific Ha 11 road Company,
who, I understand, owns the townsite, and they were refused permission to erect an ice house there on the statement that the ground they wanted fco use there they wanted to use for ot herpurposes. And I t Link that should he investigated when you get to Prince Rupert, er.d I think you will find there is plenty of vacant sxrailsble land there that even today, three years since, h? s not been taken up with anything else since, and the fish company located an ice louse 200 miles from there.
3MCRMR ' HY RMBFIE1.3:	Is there any officer of the
Booth Fisheries company who could inform us of the facts somewhat in detail so we could have it in detail to take the matter up when we reach Rrince Rupert?
MH. b HC.il!:	The	Booth Company bas a branch plant in
Rupert, and I will ascertain the real facts of that matter and get the lata and substantiate it by the time the Commissionreturns.
SrCG} MTARY HEDFI1ID:	1 should be very glad if the Booth
Fisheries Company--------I would like to o*ake this a matter of
record ---- would instruct their representative in prince
Rupert to appear before the Commission there and to testify fulRy on this matter.
LiR. BR 0 «IT:	T be re is ano t he r quest ion--
SBCF;ETAEYHEDPIEIfcD:	Mr. Brown, may I ask you to
communicate with the Booth Fisheries Company and request them to cause t bat to be done?
MR* BROWN:	les,	sir.
R. BABC CJT:	I	would	like to ask if you made any
application to the Provincial Government for sny of their land?
MR. BROWH:	I	didn't make t he app1icat ion, sir.
MR. BABCOCK:	Did the Bootb Fisheries Company?
MR. BROWN:	1	do not know about that.
MR. BABCOCK:	And may I state that the townsite of
Prince Rupert is not all owned by the railroad company. The railr ed owns part and the Provincial Government owns a part, and tbe Provincial Government has land on the waterfront, and it would be interesting to know whether they made application to tbe Provincial Government as well as the railroad.
aJECKMTARY ENFIELD:	Mr.	Babcock,	is	the Commission
correctly informed ------ this is quite important, because this
statement Las been published and widely circulated before in
377bonneotion with an appeal to Congress -------- it is not the fact,
is it, that the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway controls or owns the entire townsite of Prince Rupert?
MR. BABOO02:	The Provincial Government owns lands in
Prince Rupert, and there are many private individuals who own land, and there is unoccupied lands in prinoe Rupert.
SECRETARY HE£FIEII):	How, those are matters of official
record/
HE- BABOOOM:	And	the Government Agent there in prince
Rupert, Mr. McMullen, can assure you of the full facts when you are there.
SECMETABY REDS'I EM:	Hr. Found, would you be kind
enough to ma e a note to ask Mr. McMullen to appear before the Commission so we may get the facts precisely as they are.
HR* LEEEEY• Is it not true the railroad does owh all the land in such blocks as are suitable to the railroad?
MR.BABCOCK:	1 am unable to answer the question.
SECRETARY RERXPIEU):	I assume, ]r. Babcock, there will
be maps there, and the Commission will endeavor to get the maps made a portion of its record and, if possible, will have their, here on its return in order that they may be further questioned. Proceed, ; r. Brown.
ME. ;EQW!J:	Another	question you asked Mr. Calvert,
about tho possibility of American concerns doing business in Canada if not hampered by the tariff.
'The markets in different parts of the country fluctuateJ
in the fish business. A company in4tinneapolis might want a carload of halibut when soaie other town didn't. And .it is a known fact the B oot h—ffits hea*£e<§ , operating both a Gan&d ian and American corporation, on that side of the line has built up quite a lucrative business in Canada.
OHIMF JU 3fI CM HA2BH:	in spite of the tariff.
PH. SMITH:	It is operating on the Can dian side?
CH1LF JUSTICE BA2MN:	Ob,	yes.
MR. BKQWU; This company, in its Canadian subsidiary corporation, operates, 1 think, some ten or eleven fishing steamers. It operates now,as I understand, one American steamer and one schooner. roere is no doubt in the actual operation of that fish business that the bouses, even though one market is smaller than the other, at times the smaller market may furnish the other market with fish, and that is the case in Canada today, that lots of incidents of this kind can be pointed out.
On the question of the oar blockade. If at the time stated there was a blockade and the price of fish didn’t go down I can furnish to the. Commission several instances where for some reason or other, from lack of cold storage facilities in Hupert, not, only was the Canadian house ?ble to control the
t 'Ci-Q t
market, but American fishing vessels/were compelled to s?o in
1	here to sell their iishthad to sell below the market price, and^wher. they had offers of s better price over in Ketchikan77
on the American side, were not allowed to depart, and sold their fish there to tbeir greet detriment.
3SCM3I \KY BED?IELD:	That	is done away with by the
change of Order in Council.
MR* BBOi F:	Yes.	These,	Mr. Secretary, however, are
not the Important matters we wanted to bring before this Commission. J£r. Calvert touched on it when he said what we want to hying before the Commission is the point of declaring, from an American standpoint, American fisheries off the ooast of Alaska. fe had no idea of going in it and digging up even as many past grievances as have been dug up here today. We are willing, because of the national emergency at this time, to forget those things, and in bringing these matters to light at this time we don’t do it because of any grievance against Canada. we want to build up our own fisheries, and the successful fish company that Mr. Calvert represents here, we don’t want to force them into Prince Hupert and their capital in maintaining a cold storage house in Prince Hupert. Re want to fix these differences until they can build their cold storage houses on tbe American side of the line, and those are the questions which we want to lay before your Commission when it returns here.
SMCPJMr AliY BED?!ELD:	We will be very gled to have you
when wo returr here, Mr. Brown. In general*,the Commission desire to say that anybody in Seattle, or elsewhere on the
380American side of the border, having representatives in prince Eupert or Metohikan, or Vancouver, are invited to request those representatives to appear before the Commission and to state any and all facts that may exist to their kr
I1	be Commission will adjourn to meet in its next formal reeeting will be in prince Rupert, we will hold no session in Victoria. Fro® there we will go to Ketchikan and return to Vancouver, and we shall be very glad to have any representatives of any Seattle interests come to Vancouver, and when we return from there we shall be very glad indeed at the bearings which will then take place to lay before you as fully as possible the result of the testimony taken in Canada. /nd due notice will be sent to Beat tie# to the Chamber of Commeroe here, as to the time of the meeting in Vancouver in order that you may attend there if you wish; and, of course, that is true about the meetings here also.
LB- HUGH^.3 :	May I say, Mr. Secretary, we will intend
to furnish for your use in the record the maps that are on wall, but that can be done when we offer our regular testimony on the return. for your convenience, however, if you desire to avail yourselves of it, we have orepared photographic prints of this map and will be glad to furnish them to the members.
CHIMP JUSTICE HAZEN:	T hark you very much.
ME. LLJ3LJ&7:	It may not be germane to this record, butas a sat ter of information, tbe Secretary stated something about §5,000,000 being paid to tbe Government of Canada,
Does that hs ve reference to the settlement of the Newfoundland distriot?
SMQEETAKY HEDFIB1D:	,Ko,	tbe	Halifax	award,	awarded
by t he Joint Fisheries Committee.
MB. LMEE2Y:	For damages?
SJeLCRJSTABY HEDFIBID:	Yes.
HR. E.OV.T:	And one more thing. At ^our northern
conference 1 would suggest the	matter	of	the preservation	of
the halibut banks be gone into	fully.	1	have just returned
froifl a trip into Canada and Alaska, and I know this matter is one tping that oan be settled now, Yvhen interest is ripe on that matter* It is useless for us to figuie out who is goin« to	pet tho	fish business	if,	when we finish this	year,
there is	no fish	left.
GRIEF JUSTICE HAZKN:	Will	you	tell	us	what	your
solution of that is?
MB*	M0WH:	1 would	like	to,	Jflr, Justice,	but	it	would '
take me an hour to do so.	I have	furnished to	tbe	Commissioner
of Fisheries a report upon that	phase	.of	it.
3MCRK7/RY RKDFI3LD:	Mr.	Brown,	could you accompany	us
on the northern trip?
MR. BR07.IT:	I have been requested to, Mr. Secretary,
and I will se8 if I can make arrangements. I have just been u, there six 7/eeks for the Government, time I took away
382from my O'm business.
ilSCEETABY B-iuDFIMLj:	i	appreciate the sacrifice.
Lr. Brown, if you could reelize the advantage it was to both countries to take the	present	Board of	’Trade up	to St. John,
end Lave these men* perfectly	sincere,	and have	these things
settled when they got together end could ask each other questions so that things disappeared for good and all that Lad been talked about for a hundred years. The moment they got face to face, when this whole question that you will find in every tariff discussion of the last century and the relative cost of American vessels, and outfitting American and Canadian vessels, died when they put the contract, so to speak, on the table.	If you	car. go 1	would be	very gl&d to
have you go, and will	relieve	you of any duties	to the
Department of Commerce that will make it desirable to go, and the place is waiting for you.
1RR. B HO WIT:	Y our kind invitation, Mr. Secretary,
I certainly value. I wish to say, however, that before you oan sbif me a second time remember I have been in the tranche six weeks on the matter. However, I have several cases up foi trial, but if I can get those matters postponed I would be delighted to tske that trip.
(ADJ0UH8SD)KSAB1ST03 AT SETTLE, WA^E.
The second Seattle bearing of the American-Canadian Fisheries Conference was held in the Seattle chamber of Commerce Booms, beginning on May 9th, 1018, at 10:00 O'clock a. m.Fecond Seattle Hearing:
Opening Statement by Hon. William C. Redfield..........	5
Further Statement by Hon. filliaia C. Hadfield........... 80
Mi*. Mawi n James Brown, Attorney, Seattle, Wash.
8-Ct-S9-128-X7t
Capt. John Gibson, Manager Of Fishing Vessel Owners Association, Seattle* Wash...» . .............. 41-51-28?
William Calvert, Jr.* representing the San Juan
Fishing & Packing Co . , Seattle , Wash.................... 47-85
Hr. w. I. Clark, Secretary of Association of Pacific Fisheries * Seattle, Wash ...........	60
Kr. 1. C. Hughes, Vice Chairman of the Alaska Bureau of Fisheries, Beattie, Wash,. .................. 72-175
Mr. Boyal .a. Gunnison, Attorney and Federal Fogg Administrator, Alaska.................................	113
Ut . Edwin Bipleyj President-Manager Bipley Fish Co., Beattie, Wash............................ 160
Mr. J. MadCock, Manager of Glacier Fish Co.,
Tacoma, Wash................................................	164
Mr. J. L. KcFhersoRj Manager of the Alaska Bureau,
Seattle Chamber of Coiamerce & Commercial Club............. 181
Mr. J. C. Barber, President Commercial Club,
Ketchikan, Alaska..............................................185
ir. %\ a. Lowman, President of Washington Fisheries Association,	Anacorte*, Wash............	191-230
Mr. J.	0.	Morris, Manager of Everett Packing
Co ., Evera tt,	Wash........................	223
Vx. I.	q.	Hall,a fisherman, Seattle, Wash......... 226-282
&r. J.	b.	Cheney, Attorney, Juneau, Alaska.............	22$
Ur. K*	C.	Munly, Secretary of Thlinket
Packing Co., Portland,	Oregon........................... 235-266Mr. K. S. McCord, Attorney, representing the Vaahington Fisheries Associ -itio« , et al > Seattle........ 256-S4?
Mr. *. JM Gorman} a salmon canner, Seattle.............	246
Mr. Frank Berry, President of American Purse Seine Fisherman *s league } Tacoma, Wash...............*......... 270
Mr. M. J. Lund, Attorney, Seattle ..............	2S4
Mr. Iver Thue, a fisherman, Seattle, Wash.......... 2&&-2BB
Ut . £>. Z. Watney, a purse eeiner, Seattle, Wash...........286
Closing Statement by Hon. Villia®. C* Fedfield.......... 290
Closing Statement by Chief Justice Ba^en.....................	293AM 3&A£??,K, iAaHHOfOB
Seattle, vmsb., May 3, 1918,
?be s^&ttle Keyring of the hmer i can-canadian Fisheries Conference was held in the Seattle chamber of Commerce assembly room, beg inning at 10:0 Os, m.
Present; Hon. W. G. Redfi@ld, Secretary of Commerce of tbe United states; Hon. Edwin ?. sweet, Assistant -ecretary of Commerce of the United states; Dr, B. M. Smith, comreissloner of Tisheries of the United States; Hon.J. X). Ha&en, Chief justice of tbe Province of New Brunswick; Eon* -leo. J. D^abarats,
Deputy Minister of K&val Bervice of Canada; f, A. Found, Esq., Superintendent of fisheries of Canada; E. T. Quigley, Esq., Secretary of the American Delegation.
Among those in attendance at this hearing, in addition to the members of the American and Canadian delegations to the Conference, wero the following:
Armstrong, Augustus; Attorney, Beattie.
B&lisrcile, A. is.; representing California Pkg. Corporation, Seattle, ?,ash.
Barber, j. c. ; president of the Commercial Club of Tet cl. i kan, A la ska.
Berry, 'rank; resident of the American Purse-seine Fish, la- gue, Tacoma, cash.
1Boswell, K*B-; representing tbe Wilson Fisheries C mp&ny, Seattle.
H. H. Bulien; S. ?. A., 3rand Trunk Kailw&y, Seattle*
Bosanich, Anton; a /arse-Seiner, Bellingham, last.
Brown, Edwin James; Attorney, Seattle.
Calvert, William,jr; representing the San Juan Fishing & Pac:-ing company, Seattle, fash.
Campbell, D.; s salmon packer. South Bellingham.
Carroll, John s.; representing the sanitary fisheries Cospany, Anacortes. Wash.
Chaos, &. Jr.; e. canneryman, Everett, ei&sb.
Cheney, J. H.; Attorney, Juneau, Alaska.
Clark, Yv. 1.; secretary of the Association of pacific Fisheries, Seattle, B&su.
Crawford, „. I.; representing the Salt jea Fisheries, oeattle, wash.
pascamp, 0. ?.; Salesman for the Crescent Manufacturing Compcny, 3ea 11le.
Gibson, John; Manager of the Fishing Vessel Owners a83ooiat ion, Seattle, wash.
Gorman, T. J. ; a salmon canner, Seattle.
Gowan, Hichard; Attorney,3oat tie.
Corgas, Frank; a Purse-seiner.
Corvich, peter; a Purse-Seiner.
Gray, 3tedman K.; editor of the pacific fisherman.
Gunnison, Koyal A. ; Attorney .find 1*ederBl Food Adminis-t re tor, Alaska.
fcadley, A. 11. ; Attorney for the Alaska Packers association, and other3.
Eadle^?, H. M. ; Attorney, Seattle.
oHadley, Clide M.; Attorney, Seattle.
Harris, R. S.; a salmon canner, Seattle.
Hall, I. 0.. ; a fisherman, Seattle.
riill, Bobert 0. :	Manager	of	the Merchants Bxobange.
Hoopes, W. S.: Representing the Wilson Fisheries Company, Seattle.
Hughes, E. C- ; Y .Ice-Chairman of the Alaska Bureau,
Seat tie.
lowsan, kill A. ; President of the Washington Fisheries Association, Seattle.
Lund, hi, J. ; Attorney, Seattle.
Haddock, J.; Manager of the Glacier fish company,
Taooma, Wash.
Kaltfcy, Alfred E.; attorney, Juneau, Alaska.
McCord, E. C.; Attorney, Seattle.
Kg 75 hers on, J. L. ; Manager of the Alaska Bureau, Seattle Chamber of Commerce and Commercial Club.
Ilorebouse, Charles H. ; logging, Seattle.
Morris, J. o. ; Manager of the Everett Packing Company, Kverett, flash.
Munly, M. Q.; secretary of the Tblinket packing Company, Portland, Ore.
Mur hy, John F. ; Attorney, Seattle.
Teil, James f.; United states Shipping Commissioner, oeattle.
Herman, F.L.; Commercial Agent ol the Mrand Trunk Pacific Hailway, Seattle.
Eorcera, A. H.; a fisherman, Paulsbo, ^asn.
Prousse, p.; a fisherman, Seattle.Barnwell, H.; President of the American packing Company, Seattle.
Ripley, Sdwin; President-Manager of the Ripley Fish Comp&ny, Seattle.
atackleford, John A. ; A11 omey, f acoma, ita3 b.
dmall. B. K. ; selling agents, Seattle.
Smith, K. 3. ; Seattle, last. (Fishing & Buyer).
?hue, Iver; a fisherman, Seattle.
Vitaich, John; a purse-geiner, Beattie.
Warner,?, £.; Seattle.
barren, .Frank M. , president of the Association of Pacific Fisheries,and in attendance aa a member of the sub-commit tee conference at the invitation of Dr.Smith, Portland, Ore.
Watney, 3. 2.; a pur30 seiner, Seattle.
Wright, Frank; Representing the Carlisle pack ing Company, Seattle.
A
L.'OPEHIHC STATED* BY HOIT. WILLIAM C. BEDFIKLD.
3BG MET AHY HE DFIELD:	Tbe meeting will please come to
order.
The Conference, gentlemen, has had a very delightful time in its work north of the International boundary* and takes tbis ocoasion to express its thanks to the gentlemen from Seattle who were so gracious as to accept its invitation to accompany them and wrere present at the hearings in Prince Bupert and Ketchikan, and a portion of the time in Vancouver.
In connect3 on with our visit to the ports of Ketchikan and Prince Rupert there developed knowledge of certain restrictions placed by the Customs authorities at the port of .Ketchikan upon Canadian vessels passing that port, or taking fuej at that port, which restrictions did not esist as against American vessels on the part of the Canadian authorities. I have brought both of these matters personally to the attention of the united states Govern mer.t, and I	hold	in my	band the settlement by the	United
3tate3 Government	of one of them. The War	Trade	Board
issued a Bunker Form B-5, which contains this language;
"Upon consideration of the license granted me thi3	day of	19	,
to take	out of the	United States Bunker	fuel,	port,
3ea, and ship's stores and supplies on board the
vessel ................., I hereby a^ree that when
said vessel is discharged at the port of ultimate destination of the cargo now laden or he ins laden upon the vessel the said vessel vi i 11 return direct-ly to the united states or its possessions with only such designated stops at intermediate ports on tbe outward and return voyage as trade requirements may r.ecess itate, and t teat t he ©ntiro return cargo of said vessel will be discharged at the port or ports of the United States or its possessions fco which said vessel shall return.n
Tbe cdieotor of Customs at Ketchikan held that because a fishing vessel procured a license at Ketchikan to take out of the United States fuel oil, and ship stores and supplies in order to proceed to the public waters of the pacific Ocean and secure a cargo of fish, later marketing the catch at Prince Rupert, the vessel ffiu«t return to her United states port before she could proceed to sea again for another cargo of fish. Ever, if the United States port were a thousand miles away the Collector holds that the fishing vessel must report there before going back to the fishing banks.
I am reading from & cosmn ioation from the united Ststes Consul at Prince Hupert to the Department of State.
The Consul at Prince Hupert differed from this interpretation and brought the matter to mv attention. His statement is, in substances that Bunker Form B-5 was made to cover tbe round trip of a vessel that leaves the United States port with carpo destined for a foreign port, and provides that tbe vc ole cargo must be landed in the United states.
The matter being brought before me by the Consul at rince Rupert, I bad such knowledge of the original circumstances ss led me to believe that the Consul was correctIn bis interpretation, and that the Collector of Customs at Ketchikan was in error. The arrangement, as 1 reoall it, speaking informally and subject to correction, was one usually agreed upon between the allied net ons bordering upon both sides of the Atlantic in order that vessels ■------commercial vessels in particular -------------------------- loaded in the ports of
any of teem might be under control so that the allied nations might utilize freely and with certitude all vessels in the Forth Atlantic trade. It had no possible reference of any kind to fishing vessels at all. I therefore telegraphed to the Department of Navigation in the Department of Commerce at Washington, and I read, the telegram in full.
"Communication number ninety dated April twenty fourth fron our Consul Prince Rupert £. 3 to Secretary State contains matter should have your prompt care. Stop Collector Customs Ketchikan rules that Bunker form B dash five War Trade Board applies to fishing vessels stop Liy judgment that should apply only to commercial vessels stop please investigate and give requisite instructions to Ketchikan advising Consul Prince Kupert stop Matter causing delay and annoyance.
Hedfield
Secretary."
And I have received this morning the following, telegram
addressed to me at the Nev. Washington Hotel, Seattle.
''Referring your telegram fourth Deputy Collector Customs Retchilcan instructed by war Trade Board as you suggested M. T. Chamberlain Commissioner."
MB. MoPmRRSOIT:	On behalf of the Seattle Chamberof Commerce end Commercial Club 1 want to express their appreciation for the honor you have conferred upon our body in perm-tting us to be represented at your Hortbern trip to i-rinee Rupert, Ketchikan ar.d Vancouver. Personally I want to thank every member of the Commission for the wan;/ ac s of courtesy which you have extended to me in being so fortunate as to be a representative of the Seat:le Chamber of Commerce and Commercial Club on that trip.
Ji
SEC J5TA.HY RE DF IBID:	Thank you. Mr. Brown will
now state his case in the matter of the conservation of the halibut.
STATEMENT BY MR. SDWIN JAMES BROWN, LAWYER,
SEATTLE, WASH.
KB. BP.OW!T:	Mr. Secretary, Mr. Chief Justicef and
other gentlemen of the Commission-
I	cannot let this opportunity pass without adding a word to what Hr. McPherson h&& anid and personally thank t he Comujis3i on for tbe kind 5nvitat ion t hat wee extended me by the Commission, through the Secretary, to accompany the Confer nee to Brit i oh Columbia nd Alaska. The trip was one both of pleasure and profit, and I might say that we got b deeper understanding of many questions that bad bean touched upon before than we had before the trip, and l know the trip was taken both by Mr. McPherson and
Q
Omyself ir. 'behalf of the Bureau to the advantage of this city and of the organizatione that we represented,
I first wish to go, Mr. Secretary, into the problem of the conservation of the halibut, eri later to take up certain phases of the present condition of the dee;, sea fish eries on this Northwest Coast from the American standpoint.
What I say is said unofficially, as 1 do not wish to lay she burden of my remarks upon my aood and esteemed friend Dr. Smith. 1 shall quote from extracts from my recent invest 1?afc ions in British Columbia and A1asks on the conservation of the halibut, as 1 can present the matter much more clearly and save pages in the record and time of tbe Commission in 3o doing.
The halibut fisheries started in the Northwest along about 1889. At that time the fishing was done mostly in
the straits of Juan de !?uca, and later at Flattery Bank findicating on map). ?or a period of eight or nine or ten years the fishermen could got all of the halibut that was needed-t this one place. in 1897 the Hew England fish Company, having sent several of their steamers around the Horn, commencing fishing Hecate Strait,	m	the meantime
the American halibut fishermen caused the depletion of Flattery Bank, which, by the way, has been the most- prolific producer of halibut known to fishermen. Eecate 31Ti t ai. that t ime was so lull of halibut that a steamer could go in there any place in the Btrait and send out herdories, and in two or three days could get a maxi alt*® of tv.o or three hundred thousand pounds. As a matter of fact, the supply was so great th&t often the fish could not >e marketed; in other words, the halltut market bad not irown as It h. a a to-day* wh ere t h e oons urn 1 n g p u c lie c a n t a k e not only what is produced , hut many more t iaes than is produced.
In time Hecate strait showed signs of depletion, &nd the fishinp st-arted northward. In 1915, in the late fall, it was discovered that large schools of halibut came int o t ha Yakutst Bank in the fall of the year, and from then on the fishing developed westward, until they now fish off of and even westward of Kodiak Island. Itodiak Island is all days' distent in steaming time ty steamers used by the fish ocompanies irfeemselves, which corresponds to freighters of an ordinary medium speed class.
In 1915, partly as a result of investigations made by the United states Bureau of Fisheries, halibut fishing was hsd to the south off the Oregon and Washington coasts, end quite afishery built up off the ssouth of the Columbia River. Rowev r, this fishery has not stood the intense fishing that the hanks off Gape Flattery snd Fecate Strait, Yakutat and westward have stood.
It is safe to say, gentlemen, with the present condition of the halibut hanks, that without the present prices prevailinpi as a result of the great scarcity of meat and the great demand for fish, the halibut fishermen would have aI
hard t ime opereting at all.
A3 lat-e as 1915 tho average size of steamer trips would not he above 100,000 pounds* The average size steamer trips today, within less than three years from that time, are 50,000 to 60,000 pounds; and the gasoline powered schooners have shown a corresponding decrease in the sise of their oat ones.
It was discovered some years ago by the fishermen, and later concurred in and absolutely established by Dr. will Thompson, of Stanford University, that the fall and winter months are the spawning iOnths of the halibut. yhlle spawning V;i 11 continue from the month of November, or late in October until April, --
8£C?;i£TAEY REDFIEID:	The last of April.
ME- BHOWK:	(Continuing) — the last of April, the
majority of the spawning and the peak of the season is during the months of December and January. yo¥*:, I want to cover tt is matter so me?; hat fully, anc? I would be very glad to be questioned in detail as to sny and all statements, because we want to get it correctly in the record.
These people who are willinp, and have expressed their willingness to tie up their own industry for two or three cionths in the year are not doing it simply for the pleasure of knowing that the i.alibut swim in the sea, but are only do in," it because they believe in that way they can conserve the halibut and, on the other hand, fish to a better economicadvantage during that period. It so happens that the tali tut spawn, and tbe economic and the tetter fiBeing are not carried on from an economic standpoint, daring the v.dnter sont-hs. In other words, you cam produce halibut cheaper in the summer time, when tbey abound in greater quantities, freeze them, hold t-hem in cold storage and sell them during these wfcfcer months much cheaper than you oar. produce t he m in t h e w i n t c. r a on t u 8 ♦
In round numbers, the tanks off the Worth pacific produced in IRIS, 55,000,000 pounds * in 1914, 64,000,000 pounds; in 1915, 66,000,000 pounds; in 1916 there was a falling off of 12,000,0*0 pounas, or 54,000,000; and in 1917 the catch was 55,000,000 pounds. And during all of this period t-he industry has teen prosecuted on a much more intensive socle, an3 the halibut have dropped 6ft in the last two years .in spite of the fact that many more dories are fishing, and that good prices have prevailed and much more fishing is carried on.
I v, Lsh to quote now from extracts from the report I ruade to the United States Bureau of fisheries as the result of investigations during the months of January and February this year.
"Considerable controversy has been had already on the subject of regulation of the halibut industry so as to prevent further depletion of the grounds- The depletion of all of the known grounds in r, he Pacific, even t ne Alaskatanks, is too well known to require proof or argument.
The Pacific Fisherman first pointed out the danger from the history of the halibut fishing on the Atlantic. This was in 1913. In 1^16, the fishing Vessel Owners Association of 3 eat tie, an association comprising in ita member-ship the owners of over seventy-five per cent of the independent owned halibut boats of any considerable size, went on record and petitioned the United States Oovemaienfc favoring a closed season in the entire industry inuring the months of December and January, the spawning period on the tanks.*
Sow, I w'sh to insert in the record a copy of this petition to the United States Commissioner of Fisheries from the Fishing vessel Owners Association* The petition seta forth the reasons for desiring a closed season during thst time.
(Petition referred to received and f iled as an eshiblt.5 As e result of this petition I was called to Washington early in the year 1cj17 and, with the aid of the Commissioner, drafted a hill. This till, which 1 will introduce in the record as exhibit !tB", provides, in a general way, for a closed season during the months of December and January, that Irving fceer. advocated by the Fishing Vessel Owners Association. And 1 might say# t he Fishing Vessel Owners Association, their vessels are operated and in charge of the
M o
x c>o&pfc ins of the fishing boats, who in most oases is t be owner of the boat, or at least a part owner of the boat0 so that his relation to the fishing industry will correspond very closely to that of the fisherman himself, even the members of the Fishermen’s Union, although they are boat owners^ and in closing a season their boats and their investment is tied up.
This till also 'provided for olosing an area around Timbered Island of some extent because of the fact that great quantities of young or fTchicke.n!t halibut ha<3 been taken off of those grounds, and very few of the larger fish.
Now, there is a dispute between the fishermen and the scientists as to whether or not some of the smaller fish brought in are really "chicken” halibut under twelve pounds, or whether they are a slow growing, matured species of halibut that do not reach the sise of the larger ones brought in. In this connection it might be said that ooruparat ivel^ little is really known of the halibut.
Another dispute between the fishermen and the scientists is fc3 to whether or not the halibut is a migrating fish, whether or not he p.oos away but comes into one ground, or whether he 'Rill visit different banks along the Coast.
It was felt by the Fishing Vessel Owners Association that chicken halibut should be protected, and this billprovided for the closing of that ground. The main feature of fe he till, and the way it was sought to accomplish the effeot of the closed season, ms not only to make it illegal for American fishermen So fish during those months, tut making it illegal for the landing or sale of any fish in tr.e American ports that were taken from the waters of the Forth pacific during those months. It wouli be necessary in any legislation which would seek to establish this closed season to have that as one of the features of the measure, because otherwise fishermen of some other nationality might co$e to these tanks ana attempt to land fish on our market.
I might say that this till was passed ty the Senate, sent to the House of £ epresenfcal ives, and was stricken from the calendar of the house because it became evident that nothing immediate was to be accomplished on the matter, end we really dropped the matter from our side* although I have no doubt but what the House would have passed the measure had the matter teen vigorously taken up.
ijsGKETARY EKfFIELf:	Has	it	been	re-introduced in the
present Congress?
MR. BROViJT:	1 don't know.
CEIhF JUSflCE HASKTT:	1	suppose	it wouldn't be very
effective unless you had reciprocal legislation in Canada?
LIB. BP13VfH:	It would not be effective unless you had
reciprocal legislation in Canada, and the bill so provided.1 wish to introduce as exhibit "C?T in this matter a letter under date of Apri1 7, 1917, from Captain John a it aon, of the Fishing Vessel Owners Association, further requesting the enactment of a closed season even after the till had failed of passage, and fa5led to become a law, and fRiled to become effective, showing the continuing need of ti e legislation.
3E&-3TABY HE DP I.EL i):	We will put these exhibits in
the record in tbe order in which they are introduced.
"This plan"------that is, the plan of olosing December
and January ----- "was also favored by the Seattle companies
owning halibut steamers; also by the yew England Fish Company, t he owner of the largest fleet of f tsh ing vessels on t he Pacific Coast.	2 he yew England Company also desired to
ciose the irontt of February. *•
"In LLay, 1917, Professor Will P. Thompson sutrr.itted his final report on the depletion of the halibut grounds* and proposed a division of the fishing grounds on the Pacific into a system of s ix areas or zones, to be located in cycles of years."
These zones were to include the following areas (indicating on Liap):	Zone	One included the territory, or the
area off the coast of the status of v*asinngton and Oregon; Zone Two, the fishing areas off of British Columbia fromFlattery Banks to Dixon's Entrance; gone Three, from Dixon’s Entrance to Ioy Straits, which is off Juneau; gone Four, fros: June a.i to 3 ape Clear, which is out near Middleton island; Sone Five, westward from -Ud .lie ton Island to and including portlock Bank; Zone 3k, the Bering Sea, or any ground that might be discovered in the future to produce halibut.
Professor Thompson submitted a tentative arrangement for the first ten years, that of closing area two for five year , then opening it an3 closing areas three and four for five years* After the first ten years a permanent Bystem was to be adopted, such as alternately opening and closing
Zones Two’1-----the area off British Columbia (indicating on
map)------’’and Three"------from Dixon's Kntrance to icy straits
^every five years; and areas onert--------off the Coast of Oregon
and Washington-------’"area four3'	from	Icy	Straits	to C&pe
Clear ---- "and area five and area six to be closed alternately
every five years-------or Sor.es One, Three, Five; and then close
2ones Two, Four and dix.rf
I think, gentlemen, that theoretically a zone system would not be without merit if it weren't for this one fact:
If you divide the fishing grounds into six areas, and for a period of five or ten years close three of the areas and allow fishing to be carried on on the three that ere open, you are concentrating the fleets of both countries on half of the fishing grounds of the pacific. There is no time at which all of the grounds, or any portion over a period of years,
would be closed excepting during such periods as you would
t /have all the fishing on the tanks left open* The result of that would te that in less than five years’ time, with the combined fleets of Canada and the United states fishing half the arest the depletion would te carried on to such an extent that	the vessels would he	unahle to	fish	because there
wouldn't te	any fish for them to	fish for.
How, it	is well known that the halibut	is a	very alow
maturing fish and does not spawn	normally until	the fish is
twelve years old. They will spawn as early as ei^ht years, tut the mean average is twelve years. So that with the closed season of only five or ten years preceding an open season of five or ten years, after all of the boats of both countries have fished on that ground, would not te a lo^g enough period to allow those tanks to rehabilitate them- * ;j^ selves. Frankly, 1 cannot see that the zone system is going to conserve anything. I don't see how it can be worked out to conserve the halibut supply, because you are just simply, as 1 stated, going to force all of the fishing on half of the area for such a short period of time that it will not have time to rehabilitate itself when it is closed.
"As a concrete example of the actual operation of the 7, one system, take far example Zone Two, that is, the Grounds off the coas* of Vancouver Island and Hecate Strait, closed for the first five years. The f!shins off the Alaska Banks
JLla poor in the summer time, : hat is, 11$y, June, July, August and September. There would he such a concentration of vessels off the Oregon and Washington coasts,and in the small gone Three from Dixon's Entrance to Icy 3tra 5 tp* that within five veers’ time it would automat ic-ally suspend the halibut industry, I chink- Of the ninety-1hree American ha1ibut vessels, fifty-eight are of four-dories and under. The four-dory boats average twenty net tons. ?he Canadian fleet has eighty-two vessels, only twenty-nine of which are above the four-dory class* These small boats would he compelled of necessity to fish areas one and three, as they canrot 50 as far westward as Zone Five, and areas one and three are no t espec ia11y produoti ve *”
There is no doubt tut what during the first five years most of the Small boats, I think, would be pat out of business, Tre larger vessels during most; of that time, and especially only in the months of November, December, January and February, if a zone system were in effect only in those months, would not attempt to go bo the westward at all, because those are the only times in which they are assured of getting catches, and it is ar expensive 'oumey, and oftentimes these vessels 30 along the coast si waters until they pie t up in the Gulf of Alaska to pet their fiab, and oftentimes the fist that are Roing to the Alaska Banks, are the fish that make a profitable or a losir.f?
J oumey."$hen during the cycle that 2one3 Three and Four ware
closed, as proposed, ’T------that being all of the area from
Dixon's Entrance up to Gape Clear, which is near Middleton
Island-----,fthe larger vessels would concentrate on area five,
the four-dory boats and under would have to concentrate on
area onef’-----that is, off the oregen and fashingfcon coast —
in the spring and area two in the summer, as these are the only seasons of the year that you car; catch any appreciable amount of hall tut in Hecate strait. During t&e five years that areas three and four were closed* this smaller class of vessels would not te able to fish at all during the fall and winter, as they dare not venture north of Icy Strait,
The extensive fishing that would result during the five years following would exhaust the grounds beyond recuperation for a gre^t period of time. In other words, the closed season for the zones would not te long enough to rehabilitate these arees with such a slowly maturing species as the halibut after the exhaustion from conoentrat3on of the open cycle.*'!
Another matter of great importance to te taken into consideration as far as t he zone system is concerned, and also on any system that is put into effect, to protect the halibut, is this:
"A matter of prest importance to he considered in connection with th. zone system is the expense required In
r, r ,patroling the closed areas. It is s matter of oomnon knowledge that the small vessels of loth countries at this time fish within the 5-mile limit at the coast of hoth
countries" ----- and 1 steak generally, and I carefully
thought that out before it was put in this record.
It is a met tor of common knowledge that the smaller vessels of hoth countries poach within the 3-mile lisit, of both countries. It is ss Mr* Morris stated at the hearing in Prince Bupert; he praottally admitted he had done so.
CEIEF JUSTICE HA2KH:	3ureiy	none	of	our Canadian
fishermen would do anything of that sort?
1.13• BEOisFT:	I only condone the fact, Mr. Chief Justice,
because we do the same thing. That is one measure of reciprocity that is in force at this time.
"Stioh men as Captain John Gibson, the manager of the Pishing Vessel Owners Association, frankly state that there will te poaching unless the strictest kind of a patroling service is established. Of this he has not the slightest doubt. Certain of the vessels which at this time will venture within the 3-mile limit will certainly not respect a lax rf'trol by ocean steamers, for on account of their 3ifif.il siKe they can detect approaching vessels or1 patrol toass minutes in advance of the patrol toats detecting their presence. He states that one of these schooners would be ah1eto out loose the- gear with which it was fishing ari he under way before a .patrol host could possibly prove that it was fishing. such a scheme, ssys Captain Gibson, would work to the advantage of poachers and against those who would respsct and obey the law. The expanse of p&troling the thousands of miles of coast line that would be olosed under the permanent system would be a very expensive item, considering the fact that the patrol boats would have to be sufficient sise and steaming radius to cover these open ocean areas."
I might say that a meeting was held by the Vessel Owners Association on December 10th, 1917. Quite a good deal of time was given to a discussion of the closed sore system, end they voted against it unanimously because they thought it ?.ould not conserve the halibut and that it would be open to and would lead to poaching by the fishermen.
I'ow, since our trip to the northward 1 have prepared a statistical paper, exhibit MDW, showing the amount of fish that would be conserved by such a proposed z one s^stes, and I was very much surprised to find that the percentage of fish that would be saved during that time was as much S3 it is. Closing of the months ox December, January and February, as is suggested, of course would close twenty-five per cent of the year, and I find that the fishes taken during such a period in no place run under twelve per cent
OOand run as high as eighteen and two-thirds per cent of the total yearly oat oh. It must also be taken into ooasidere t ion that if you close December, January and February you are also going to close about half of the fiahing in the month of November. Because of it being against the law to land fish on December 1st, none of the larger boats would start out for the banks after yovernier loth, and very few of the smaller boats after November 15th, so that with the closing of those months you are technically closing 'part of the fishing, at lea at twenty-five y&r cent of* the fiahing
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZKT:	Bo	you	think you should close for
three months, November, December and January, or should close for three months commencing at the loth of November, as was suggested at Ketchikan? It was suggested the three months should start with the 15th of November and end on the 15th of February.
MB. EEOWIT:	I think that this three months system
that we have is going to close it the 15th of November anyway to all practical purposes, end if the close season were inaugurated and the beginning date would be November loth you v.ould close it bsck as far as the 1st of November, and really the latter part of October, because a vessel coming into port, if the captain knows the season is go inn to :?lose on a certain date, will not take a trip that he knows is going to bring him back to port twenty days fro$ t time*MB.	FOUFD:	How would that affect	the other end?
HE*	EHOVVIT:	It wouldn’t have	that	effect on the other
end, because he Is not ellowed to fish before the first day of Harch.
l£z.	fQUID: • There would have	to be a patrol?
It.	BHOWH:	Yes, there would	have	to be a patrol,	but
the patrol to prevent a man from fishing wouldn't be the same as in a closed area, because if he has any fish on board during the month of February you know he has taken those fish out of season. And another thing is, you could prevent them from clearing, or if the boat had cleared for the banks more than seven or eight clays before the 1st of lie re h the boats would be really open to suspicion, or any time that would be a greater time than it would need to get to the fishing bar&s.
The amount of fish taken in	the	months of	December
and January and February depends a great	deal	on the state
of the weather. for instance, during that season in the years 1015 and 1916 there were brought in from the banks
10,800,000	pounds, while during	the	year	1916	and 1917	there
were only 6,000,000, and during	the	year	1917	and 1918	only
7,000,000, because the weather was notoriously had, and it 7.ss during these jears that ^e lost so many of our fine fishing steamers and schooners. This table shows that during the season of 1914 and 1^15, had it been a closed season therewould still lave resained or. the tanks 9,937,000 pounds of tali tut, an approximate percentage of a yearly catch of 15 l/2 per cent.
MR. ?0UI;D:	Are you speaking of December and January?
ME• PROWI?:	De3emher, January and ?etruary. I might
state frankly right now that the original till only provided for the months of January and February. I think the developments since then would clearly indicate that the season should te three months, and if you include February, as I 3tated before, it would really, to all purposes, te three and a half months, because ife will cut 6own 50 per cent of the
fishing in iTovemter.
There were taken during these three months in 1915 and 1916, 10,826,000 pounds, or 18 Zj3 per cent of the'yearly catch; in the season of 1916 and It 17 there were taken
7,634,000	pounds, or 15 per cent of the catch; and in the season that has just passed, 1917,and 1218, there were taken
6,370,000,	or an approximate percentage of 12 per cent of the total catch.
Tow, these statistics were taken from those of our United states Bureau of Fisheries and Pacific Fisherman, with the exception of the landings in Southeastern Alaska.
1 found in the other ports that the fishing in those winter months w^s approximately 50 per cent of what it would te in a corresponding summer month, so the yearly average in Alaskate ing 12,000,000 pounds a year, 1,000,000 pounds laving ar. a vers se, I took 60 per cent of that, or 500,000 pounds, as the approximate total from the winter catch, although the statistics of this year have shown the oat ah in Alaska has gone above that. But that is the way the total is emde up, Bnd is accurate, and is ceita^nly accurate enough for these purposes.
fthile > n average of 15 per cent might not seem, in the case of 3oil6 speoies, saving of enough fish for spawning purposes to keep up the ground, in the case of the halibut it is a fairly large percentage. The average halibut taken
'N
in on the boats during these days, the average size of the fish, is about 25 pounds to the fish, which, if during a
* * , * •
season 10,0)0,000 pounds 'were taken, woulH be about four hundred ar.3 some thousand halibut. Assuming that 50 per cert of these halibut are females, you would have at losst
200,000	fish, from a conservative estimate, spawning; and the halibut spawn anywhere from 300,ORO to 5,030,0)0 e<?gs, so when you pet dov.n to calculate mathematically the number of e -gs thst are going to te -eposited in the spawning grounds it goes way up.
3hc>cr •' BY EED^IKLD:	You	save	30, 000 female fish on that
bssi s?
1C;. BKOVjTT:	hell,	you would save really more than that.
You would save about 200,000.3ECR27.-HY HEDPISLi); I thought it was 15 per cent of the 200,000 you would save?
RR.. 3B0M:	”70, it. was 15 per cent of the yearly eat oh,
which, in number of fish, would he approximately 400,000, calcul-rfe inp them at 25 pounds to the halitnt,
ShCBaTAHY BBDFIELD; That is the 15 per cent?
MB. BBOWH:	That is the 15 per oent of the yearly total.
3o that there would te a great amount of spawn put on the grounds during that time, with the fish being as prolific as 51 i s.
/-net aaother thing:	If	it	is found this season isn't
enough it is muoh to the advantage of the hosts to tie up for a longer period, he cause on this '-coast we have not the
fPit '■ X- O
tip variety of fishes that they have off the Few Lngland coest and on the Newfoundland Banks. fov., if you could get codfish, or the herring, you have a different proposition. There is sr. unlimited supply of herring and codfish, tut you haver.Tt	the p, ;	, nor. the -—	, or	the	number of
other fishes, which, as I have looked	upin the tatle of Hew
Engl* t: 3 statistics last year, amount to approximately 200,000 pounds & year.
DR..	3 TIE:	200,000,000 pounds a	year.
’!•*	PH0VMt:	200,000,000 pounds a	year.	The	statement
was :;a:!e ty one of the gentlemen at -rinoe Rupert that the halitut v,ero going anyway, let them ?o and tald up anotherfishery. 1 would like to know whs t spe lies they are go in-3 t o build the fishery out of. The sable fish, whiob has heretofore ranked next to the halibut, is not present on this cosst in the quantities it is thought. The fishery for sable fish was carried on very extensively last year, none of them were thrown away, and still the yield of sable fish on the banks was less than six million pounds to the year. ling cod, and the same with the red snapper, the continental coast, the 100,000 fathom line, until you get up to Alaska, is only about 20 niles, and there is not the feeding grounds and the broad areas to fish on as there is on the other coast.
Tow, this closed season in the winter will not in any v,ay interfere with th. herring fishery or tha. cod fishery, herring a re not c a up h t by t. h e ha lib ut f i s h e 1 men, a nd the cod fishermen catch very few halibut, because the cod fisherman operates his line, not on the ground, but up off of the ground* and uses a hand line. He might in the morning catch a halibut or so for bait, and in using that halibut for bait he would probably reproduce I is catch many, many times in the cod he would catch for it. But, as stated to me by Ur. Gibson, the cod f i shermer.don't take a boat of halibut in a season.
3o I don’t 3ee v;hat other deep sea fisheries you are going to build the fisheries oat of if the halibut are exhausted.
01 IE? JU-TIGa ;?A237T:	whether you can or not, we shouldn’tletthe halibut disappear*
13. BROWF:	!To.	And another tr.ing; it is almost unique
that on this coast practically all of the fishermen, all of the coat owners and practically all of the companies favor this closer season. *nd the unanimity of opinion is only produce^ because of the seriousness of the situation.
dRGIRR/KY KsDFJala:	We found that unanimity in every.j£-
port.
].;H. BBOWlf:	With one exception, and that is the gentle-
man who spoke at Prince Bupert.
3111EF JUS RICK h A3B?T:	you me n the gentleman who thought
we better let it go end develop some other fishery?
MB* BROWN:	Yes.	But 1 can see where tra.t gentleman,
in a wap, by developing a wider territory in Hecate strait, might produce ? It tale fishery there; but for the industry ^ in gt nera 1 and for t hc jon.;£rvat ion of t- he f ishery0 whict is the only deep sea fishery you are going to expect upon this Coast, something must be done or they are going, and going in & very short time.
R'ov., this other uestion, as t-o the commercial advantage of the closed season:	I	understand I r.	went into
detail bout the amount of gear, lost vessels, end so forth, so I am not going to incumber the record with that. But I knov. in a general way what i is statements vmre ; 1 know they are absolutely correct< The steamers will lose 50 per cent of their pear during those winter months. A halibut boatsteys or 01 o tank, sends off his dories and puts out his lines. If a storm or anything oomes up the linos drift a wap from the boat, and they 1 :>se them, .• nd tbey congregate on the bottom of t he ocean, &nd there is no doubt the grounds?? re despoiled for fishing. There is no doubt the halibut is enough of a scavenger to be driven away from these banks. It is al« most the unanimous opinion of all the trawlers and of the fishing captains that enough gear a an be lost or: the ground to ruin that ground.
Chi*;? JUSTICE LASEa:	You have spoken, Mr. Brown, you
have argued that ah out 50 per cent of toe halibut caught during the year are caught during those three months?
MH. BBQbH:	Yes,	sir.
C'nla? JU TICE i.AZHT:	Therefore you say there isould be
a saving of 15 per cent of catch. Do you think there is danger of the halibut fishermen, if you hsve ? closed season during that three months, working harder during the balance of the jear?
IRR. BKOViTT:	To, I don’t, Mr. Chief Justice. There 5s
such a demand for halibut, and has been during the 1 st few years, those fishermen fish on as extensive a scale as thev can at all times. 1 don’t know of a vessel on this coast tbat is capable of fishing halibut that is not out aft r them. And 1 don't think the fact they are prohibited from fishing for three and a half months ^\ould lead them to fish any more
s~> »'\during the other t ioe, because they fish all they can.
Captain Gib.son is here, a representative of the Fishing Vessel Owners Association, and I know he will bear me out in that statement. But I do believe that any system that is a zone systea will lead to more extensive fishing. A boat will probably lay up for two or three weeks for repairs anyway, but not over as long a period as three or three and a half rnont hs.
hnd anot\;er thing:	A suggestion was made as to the
possibility of closing probably one summer luonth instead of two or three winter months tecause the same amount of fish would be saved. flow, the fish you would get and save during the summer month would be the Hecate 3trait. fhose fish do not spawn in there during that time of year, and if you close the L.onih of June it is reasonable to suppose those boats will get those fish in July and August, or even in September. 30 I don’t think the closing of the month of Jm'e, or one of the summer rnont hs, would do any good, because the spawning fish do not start coming in until •; he fall, and a closed season in any of the sum :er a.or.ths would not protect the spawning fishes that come later or in the year.
How, J have ter.t ior.ed the economic advantage of f 1 shins in the summer and tiding the rket over with frozen fish in the winter time. The average price pa id the fisherman for halibut in the summer 15me will r nge anywh re fro.;, sevento eight rad nine cents. That fish can he frozen----------------well,
as p mat ter ol fact, the rate as fixed by the Canadian Fish and Cold Storage Company, one of the organisations up there, is s half a cent a pound for freezing, together with the first month's storage, and then a half a cent a month, and 502 can freeze t cose fish ; nd hold them five or six months with a cost of two or three cents. 80 when you add that to the cost of eight cents you have your total product in these closed months for ten or eleven cents, whereas it costs you to produce fish during that season as high as fifteen or sixteen cents.
And it is well known the fish comvaniea even lose money on th*i r boats during that time, and I have no doubt that is largely respons’ble for the Canadian Fish and Cold Storage Company tying up its steamer during those three or four months.
SECr.ii.? ARY 3-SDFTiiILD:	Invoices	were placed on the record
in Few Westminster showing halibut at ten cents in the cold storage c cmpany?
MR. BROW:	Yes.
•Jr. 11.-F JU3TI0; iZ:S:	Have you given consi derat i on to this
question, whether or not you should simply prohibit the fishing for halibut during those months or prohibit all deep sea fishing? As long as deep sea fishing is permitted a certain amount of halibut is going to be fi'hed.
RE. BROrt’N:	1 would prohibit all deep sea fishing, per-
haps with tne exception of the deep gray cod. jt is known the set le fish spawns t. he same time the halibut does, and theonly other fish that arc there are the ling cod, and the snapper, and theye are not enough of those for any boat to oarry on a commercial fishery during that time. And I think -----
CBIMP JU:->TICS HAS£11:	11 was suggested s®mewhere
that all fishing should he prohibited, all deep sea fishing, during those three months, except such fishing as could te carried on by steam trawlers, which would not operate on the hanks of the halibut waters; that it would te an actual injury to the consumers of the country if during those three months no fish could be caught. How, there are a considerable quantity of other fresh fish going into the Canadian markets. If for three months of the year you should cut off your supply ----------
ME. BB Of IT:	The steam trawler, Mr. Chief Justice,
operates in Kecate strait.
CHIK? JUSTICE HASEH:	There	is	only one trawler there
at the time?
i'R. BBO>'.?!:	There	is only one trawler there at the
time. well, 1 don’t think that trawler operated this last winter during those months.
And another thing:	A	statement	was made that
the irawler, about 7 per cent of its fish are halibut, and Hecate otrait is the one that needs protection. pr. Thompson, in his report, pointed out by facts and figures that
fT'Hecate strBit has beer, depleted about 85 per cent,
SB. ?QUJiJ):	Following	the	evidence	that was given,
it TfSS also suggested at the hearings yesterday that halibut that plight	he taken	by such steam trawler might	not he sold
fresh, but	would	be	required	to be frozen and sold in the
f r os on cond i t. ion.
SaOI.r.l'AHY Br.i)FIEXD:	Sold	after	the closed season.
1£H.	FOUIH):	Ko,	sold	irojsen, must	be frozen.
SaOHMT*KY HKDFISLD:	Yes, that	is	correct.
MB.	BROWN;	The	natural result	of	that would be that
all the other companies would start developing the outer territory,	and 1	am	inclined	to believe that as	a broad
matter of policy	it	would be	better to prohibit	the fish-
ing entirely. if it could be so any amount of fresh fish could be brought in dnx ing t hat> t ime v, i t bout ser iously af-fecting the halibut thsro would be nothing against it, but I think the amount of fish th t could bebrought in at those times by the outer trawler, I think it is small.
DR. SillTn:	Is	it	your	judgment,	Hr. Brown, that toe
halibut would be protected and the lin* fishing still be possible during this proposed winter closed season by using smaller nooks than nre being used in the halibut fishery?
13.	EHOfftf:	No.
DT>. n: ITS :	Or by any other modification of the gear?
Hi. BRCai:7:	No. i bsve gone very carefully into themodification of the gear so ss in some way to be able to catch the larger halibut instead of the small ones; but you can't do it. That small halibut has a mouth that •— well, you couldn’t do it. You would have to fish without anchors to keep the small halibut off. fbe small halibut can open its mouth big ------- well, a chicken halibut can
open its mouth eight inches wide. 1 don’t think you could change the gear so as to keep the smaller halibut off the hooks. Captain Gibson here has bad some twenty years* experience, and he might be able to enlighten you a little deeper on t n&t subject.
$ow, 1 wish to take up a few reports that I had from fish captains on this last trip to Alaska.
"On January 16, 1918, I interviewed Captain Gibson of the schooner ’Toe1 and 'Al’ in prince Bupert.
Hie vessel left •eat tie December 21, 1917, and fished the : akutat grounds, bringing in 8,000 pounds of halibut end 1 ,000 pounds of sable fish. He reported that toth the halibut and sable fish were full of ripe spawn.
On January 20th 1 interviewed Captain Barrie of the Cfica.iian fishing company’s steamer ’Oelest ial Empire. 1 TH/ t is one of the boats operated by Hr.	JL
Company. he fished from Yakutat westward to Portlook- Bank during t re latter part of December and the first cart of January. He brought in 5.,001 pounds of halibut and Ho,000pounds of sable fish* Captain Barrie reported that both species were full of spawn, and he said 'Its a crime to take them out of the water.1
On January 2End Captain Fesland landed 40,000 pounds of halibut at Prince Rupert caught on those
grounds immediately west of the ^ueen Charlotte Islands ----------
that is as far down as off Hecate strait* He reported that the pokes of the fishes showed that a great many of them had just finished spawning. After spawning the poke sags like a gunny sack. ’ The writer went from Prince Rupert to Ke t c h ikan with Gapts in Wesland on the 'Settle* and went into several phases of the subject with him. He stated that he had been making a special effort to study the spawning period of the halibut since the question first came before the Vessel Owners Association in 1916. The fseafetle1 on her previous trip fished off Yakutat from December 18th to December H?th* The fish were fuliof ripe spawn, llhen hoisted in the slings from the dory to the vessel the ripe spavin poured out into the water.	The bottoms of
the dories were also literally covered with ripe spawn.
On the trip preceding the above trip, the vessel fished the seme grounds from November 25th to December 2nd. captain Nealand reports that i-'omc of the fish were spaan3ng but that the abundance was not as noticeable as later in December, he believes that 'he season runs from November loth to aboutthe 1st of February, hut that the season does not get advanced until in December.and does not end until in March.
Ee 3tated he took ripe spawn from halibut in November off Skategst Flat in hecate strait. In July, According to Captain !?83land, 'you first see small tiny eggs. You can hardly see them. rhey get larger each trip of the vessel.
In October tne poke gets noticsbly larger end the spawn st arts running with pressure in lovemter.* Captain lies-land also stated that he had taen cutting into and examining the pokes on each trip.’*
I interviewed also Captain Hultman of the schooner •Tyee* on July 24th; Captain Bjorke of the schooner "Yakutat!f on January 24 th: captain Johnson of the ?'Alemeda*r in Mete*, ikan on January 24th, and other evidence and statement a were merely cumulative of the statements of the other gentlemen, whose statements i bafe gone into more fully.
I might state also, gentlemen, in this connection that it is very desirable, and most desirable, at this time that either our governmentp orthe Canadian government, or both ?overmoent s, make a deoper study int o t tie Laiitut.
Y,e have to work a good deal in the dark on the question.
The fishermen would be able to fish maah better if a vessel of t i-.-z ri jular practical schooner ilshing type were furnished, no;i a boat that required bb ouch as the ’'Albatross•',which rennlrid too muoh to be operated economically in a case of this kind. The vessel would not in all cases have to fish. If the fishermen know She kinds of bottom that are brought up at she different depths they will know pretty well where to loo te the fish, and that is as much &s they are asking in this sstter. But it would appear that the work of Dr. Thompson, which is really the only work that we have on the subject at this time that is considered as sbsolu ely authentic, should be continued and that the study should be gone into -sore fully* it may be % he t some moans of artiflcally hatching spawn might be devised. It seercs as though it would be a very difficult question because of the fact that* the halibut spawns in fairly deep water, in a hundred or a bundred ?-.n d fifty fat:hoe;s , or isayfee deeper, but it may be that ways or means could be devised by scientists o get around that.
The halibut i ■, as the oeople in the business will tell you, a class unique as a fresh fish. The way it will stand up under refrigoration and just slaply iced is rather remarkable* In the winter time the fish will stand up a? long as 30 or 35 days just simoly ioed, and in the summer - hoe, in , a e hottest weather, being properly iced, will stay in fine condition 20 or El days.
3a0h8:'AITY REDFIELD:	L'r. Brown, you Bpe&k of t; he
"Albatross being too large. Is it your idea a vesselfor this purpose should te more of the schooner type?
UK, BEOWH:	I think it should, and something along
the size of 8 sis or seven dory coat like the "?yeef?, or one of those ho&ts, tnat can he manned wi th a crew of proholly five men and a couple of scientists.
SSCHjsIAKY HKOTIis'J):	Gan you suggest what such a
vessel under resent; condit ions would approximately cost?
MB. BBOiUN:	I would rather ask Captain $ It non zo state
that. Could you state, cap tain, as to what & vessel of the type of the n7ye-,% or one of those six or seven dory hosts, could "he produced a tv
C.-'PT'ir G-IBSOTT:	At	t	he	time	these	vessels	were	h&ilt
two years ego the cost woalQ he approximately aS5,00Ca
CE 1FRF JUSTICE iiAZEH:	I	presume	it	would	oosts	more
t o hu i1d t h err t oda v?
o *
C a? T!' kisser:	Couldn't he h.iilt at all.
SrfOI^rTAEY	That is t he point. supposing
thtere is money available, is it ©. fact-----------I am seeking for
guidance in connection with	doss ills	estimates-------is	it	the
fact that vessels could not	he huilt	at all to-day? Are
ysrds open t ia i could huild	sue b vessels if they were	ordered?
MH. C7RAKR :	I know of	one yard	at Raffllock would	he	ahle
to build that kind of vessel.
3aCI;ar- h~i x.hDFlKLD:	wooden	vessels	you fire speakinf? of?
HR. CLAhK:	Yes.
Mi. BHC.V!T:	1 irnow of one or two vessels thst be ve ohangedhands recently.
SKCBiCABY RKpyiELi): • Do you know the price at which they ohange d nands y MH. BROWS:	$0.
a&CBE'TAKY BIDFIRXD; It is 4k good question to consider. There is one ether point Shat was brought out up the Coast, lr. Brown, which you have by inference touched upon, but 1 would like you to emphasise it if you care to. It was, that the halibut oaught in this spawning aondition in midwinter were in very noor condition as food?
m. BE OUT:	There is no doubt as to that, Mr,
Secretary. The head of the halibut brought in from the bsnT?s during that time will run as high as 10 and 17 per cent of its weight, well, as a matter of fact, these fish are known among the commercial fishermen and the fish houses during
7	-
ih.
that time of year as n3la^ar?, t hat is, what they are "known as, and they do not compare with the fish that ere caught as a i'ood article at other periods of the year.
tfhClu.TkHY BEDJ?IrRL >:	Not on!y in f ood qual ity, t at in
keeping quality?
Li-.. KiOwII:	in keeping quality and quantity also.
s3LC_ iRrARY Iihi>F SLE:	i1 hen---1 am not sure that you
touched upon it ------- is it not at this particular season that
the 1ose> f human life and property is greatest?
Ch yes. 7hat is 1 raat. ioallj---------well, there
Eight ce a boat lost ar some other period of tne year, butthey are so few that A oo.ild not name one, and 1 could name a dozen that have beer lost in the last few years during that stormy period of the year.
DH- .5 MTh:	I	would	like	to	say	in	connection	with
Rr. Brown’s suggestion of a vessel for fishery work on this Coast so take the place of the nAlbatross", that we have long realised that the "Albatross" was not of a type host adapted to the kind of work that you wish done, and which we wish to do on this Coast. Aivi we have had under consideration and, ] believe 1 osn say *;o the secretary, at the first opportunity will &.sk Congress for a vessel b-silt along the lines of your practical fishing vessels to take up, just such problems as are now confronting it. it is our first intention end earnest desire to	do this.
I-:}<. BBCR'T:	It m y he, Mr.	^ecreuary,	that	Captain	Gibson of r-he Fishing Vessel Owners Association	might	care	to
add a word or offer a statement	on tlmt.
ShCKEI RY	I	would	be	very	glad,	Captain
Gibson, if ^ou. htve anything to say.
S? ATFM'Ji'Fr BY Or? TAIN JOHN GIBS OK,
LA!! G.M. OR "Hi. *I3BIIT(r VaR 3KI 0YMTLK3 A R 3001 AT I OH, dLA^LE, ¥A3h.
C: G a r. 7 A HY EE DP IF,LB:	’.V ha t is y our oc oupa t i on?
O' -TAir GIBSOr:	Manager of tbe Fishing Tessel Owners
A8300iat5 on.
' n
/-• siSKCBhTAKY BE'JPIEL'D:	Very	£lad to hear from you,
0	apt t in Gib sen•
GA 'T/II.* rflBib'OB:	I	am	very	glad	to- have an opportunity
to express myself on the matter of the preservation of halibut, since I am a fisherman myself, andffor a number of years, in fact about fifteen years, 1 operated a vessel myself as master. And since t hat time I have teen employed 0 that is, excepting one year, been employed by the aforesaid association, which, as Mr* Brown has already sold, is oon)rosed of the majority of privately owned fisting vessels of any size. There is, in fact,, now belonging
to the /association better than fifty----------to be accurate,
about fifty-four ------ vessels, or members. And Mr. Brovn
brought to our attention about t- o years ago the necessity of some kind of measure being taken by the two governments looking forward to the preservation of halibut, knowing that they wrft getting rapidly depleted on all the known grounds. And when 1 say all the known ?rounds, that means about as far as the vessels csn conveniently operate from the known bases, that is, from railroad connections like Prince Bupert, the la >:» t \ ort of call. They have now gone as far as port lock Bank, a short distance from rodiak Island, where they are getting their largest catches. And, of course, it is only a swell nu®ber, comparatively, of vessels tfeat po there. They are not equipped with a sufficient fuel capacity in i; he first place, i nd they are not of a sufficient sise to
/? oweather the winter .gales, so there is probably lose than twenty-five vessels that regularly operate to that particular hark outside of the Company owned steamers. The other vessels, they are fishing along the whole coast,
from ---- well, I may say from the Columbia Biver up to
Icy Straits, and there are some fishing, weather permitting, about an average of ter: days. And when 1 say ten days to each voyage or trip, I don’t mean ten eight-hour days,
1 mean about twenty-hour days, because it is the custom now in	fine weather	to fish at least twenty hours a	day, And
they run, as an	average, a string of	gear, that	is, books
and line, in one stretch that would probably amount to four miles to each dory, with the hooks placed ten feet apart.
And it is very seldom to see afull trip of fish come in.
Vie consider a vessel very lucky to bring half a trip, or half capacity.; that is, a vessel that ordinarily would carry about 75,000 pounds, if she will bring in as much as 50,000 pounds, we consider that a good trip.	And where in former
years they used to get the full trip of fish in about five or six days in shout — well, say twelve, from twelve to fifteen hours' fishing, we now get only half of that catch in about nine days in about twenty hours’ fishing a day.
3o	it plainly shows that unless some	measure or	protection
is	enacted that	in .a very short time	there will	not be hali-
but enough left far commercial fishing.
V,hen the Association first began to look into the
Amarket as to what t ioe of year halibut is spawning, for the reason that fish have been so plentiful, we didn't think there would be a time apt fco come when we couldn't get enough of them, so we paid very little attention to them, outside of knowing in a general way that the fish carries spawn mostly the year round. But since, as I said, we began to study the matter and make inquiries from each vessel, the captain of each vesselt and also from experienced fishermen when thea arrived, we found out that while the fish carries spawn, the spawn don’t seem to be ripe before in about the month of December. Some say that some fish may lay their spawn in November, but the majority undoubtedly will lay their spawn in December, and 30 that by the end of January then they have all left, that is, they all lay their spawn and have left the ground.
t»'e have also, by studying the habits of halibut, we have found out that when they make their yearly emigrations into the shore vsater they are in there for feeding purposes only, that they don't coroe into shoal water to spawn, hut come in
only to feed. And late in the year, something like ---------- well,
it differs on different ground,but we will say from about October and *ovember and December, and sometimes on some ground, providing the water is shallow, they leave sooner then that, ihey lerive even in September. They go out to certain places where they used to come every year arid they congregate atcertain places. Aral if the fish are very plentiful in a certain district there will be fish along the whole bank in a certain depth of water. We will say most of the fish, go out in a hundred fat to ms, hundred to a hundred and twenty-five fathoms of water, and along the whole coast for several hundred miles there would be fish, more or less, along the whole bank, but there would still be certain parts of the bank that they would be more plentiful than at other places. Ar.d as the fish begin to get caught up, the places that didn't hold so many to start in, they will be the first, to be depleted, and there will be these other places left where there was great bunches of them before, and consequently when they bep,in to fish that with all the boats within probably a couple of bund red miles t he y w il 1 all a t r i ke o u t fa r t ha t particular ground. And the weather being heavy and a heavy sea running, they will at ill try and fish as along as they can, that is,natural, and they will take chances. They will put out a whole lot of gear, which sometimes they don't get back, and they know that, but they simply take the chance; especially that is the case v,here the fishermen wouldn’t have to pay for the gear themselves. They say the company has got lots of Rear, we don't care, we will take a chance. The vessel owners, they pay for the gear jointly, and they don’t like to take the same cuance, but, of course, since have the high prices they do at times. And they will cross one another’s gear* There may to at times five or sis differentgeer crossing itself. sometimes they line it up and sometimes they cross it. They start to haul the gear in, end, of course, if the boat has the gear on the bottom end starts to haul first he will have the weight of all the other gears and the fish on the gears to carry up with him, and the gear being unable to stand the strain will part and he will lose them; and the next man comes along and begins to get the tangle, and	there will he	all this fish and all
this gear left,	and be	won't he	able	to	gethis fish either;
the other will be cornin'?, and at last there will be so much gear in that place there will be no mere use fishing in that one place.
IRr. Brown made plain there is only 15 per cent of fish caught during the proposed three months, and there will probably be another 19 per cent of fish that will be sa fe.
SECRETARY KbDFlKLD:	That	ere now destroyed?
CAPTA If GIBSOF:	Well, we don't know how many there is
destroyed, but	w© know	that the	gear	is	lost, and we know
that there was	fish on	the soar	end	tto	fish will be lost.
3ECHKTAKY REDFIELD:	Yes,	exactly. Tb$nk you very much.
Captain- Anything else, Hr. Brown, on that subject?
1IK. BHOtf-7:	j	think Mr. Calvert might say a few words
on the clos in? of areas where it is known that small halibut abound. I just touched that in en offhand way, but I think he can ffive you some more det: iled information.ts
SKCHSTa^ET BEDFIE1D:	.'	ike to hear from you.
WILLI.AH CAT.V3HT , JR. , REPRSHS^IITG THE SAN JUAN FI3HIHG & PACKIBG CO. , SEATTLEt WASH.
MB. CAL?aHT:	Just	in	connect ion with the closed
season,! think it is the right thing to do. I think it is a good conservative measure and an economical measure./fC But in addition to that, there is no use in conserving the fish unless we take care of the spawn a little after it is hatched.
And just by way of illustration, I might say a matter of ten or fifteen years ago, when we used to sen our boats out of -jeatRle into H cate Strait, which would be the best place to illustrate what 1 am trying to drive at, being the grounds oalled Goose Island, we would p~o out there with our big vessels, and if we got good weather we would load up those vessels in from one to three days. fe would cat oh as high as 100,000 pounds of what we called chicken halibut. The average weight of those halibut coming in her- would be from 9 to 11 pounds. JTow, in catching that 100,000 pounds of fish they would catch thousands of fish which they would simply shake off their hooks, because they were small fish, we i g h i ng i r. ywh ere fro m a p oun d to four p o un d 3.	1 n t ak i ng
these small fish v»e would take not hing under four pounds, v«e v.ould accept them at all. And we used to limit our
yyb oa t s as to t be am©unt of this oh§cken h&libut they would bring in. The oat oh dinn't depend on the fish, it simply depend©i on tie weather. If rve got the weather we got a trip in anywhere from one to three days with t he limit that we had place 1 on the captain as to the amount that be was to bring in- And I might say that he always exceeded that limit of those small fish. 1 don't think there was one time during those early nays that they didn't exceed the limit that we out on them for bringing in small fish*
To follow up, we could go there to-day with the sam fishing equipment, and give us good weather, every day good weather, stii I doubt if we could catch 100,000 pounds of halibut in three weeks during the same season and under aim? lar c ond i t i ons> ■ a imply demonst rat in?, t h b % t he sc small fish have gone.
Now, whet her fc he s e fish on t hese pa rt i gular g r ounds jire a different species or not, 1 don’t know. J don’t
believe so------just state that- without knowing--------because
it seems logical t.hai the saall fish would go to the same feeding ground. Pish will follov. their feed the 3ame as anything else, and they go to that ground because it is a natural feeding ground for them, for trie young fish; their food is there.
Sovy, if youadon't conserve thoae grounds where these your? fish feed what is the ?ood of having them spawn?
Ho trat 2 think in order i; c pat the right conservativemeasure into effect; there should he certain grounds which. are well known that would be set aside and fishing prohibited entirelys because in catching that food fish, or these small fish, there are so many thousands and thousands of them that are so small that they are of no commercial value that are simply shaken from the hooks into the water.
SKCai^iAHY REDFIELD:	Where	would	you say those grounds
were, Mr. Calvert?
MB. CAIjViSBT :	Kiell,	there	is	the	Goose	island grounds
in Hecate Strait; there is the grounds north of Yakut a. t, end I think Captain Gibson could tell you better than 1 could just where those grounds are. i am not a 'practical fishermen, 1 am simply taking these fish as I knov; them to exist, operating vessels from the shore.
SkCriiSTARY BEDFIELD:	Would	you	favor	a	regulation by
the .Food Administration that chicken halibut should not be sold?
MR. GALT&RT:	No	sir, I would not, because you might
just as well sell it. You can’t catch the big ones without oa to f-ing the small ones.
3KCIhR'ARY RSDFIELD:	Well, beneath a certain size,
say?
13. C■' V/RRT:	It	would	be	destroyed	anyway.
C r :CP e.T ARY RJRD? Z ELD :	11 would be sacrificed any b ow,
they are dead anyho w?
IS. C' T.VtRT:	They	are	deed anyway. But what I amdriving at, there are certain grounds where t he snail fish congregate and not so many of the big fish.
CHI a? JU 3710 a 1AZEH:	Would you be in favor of having
this area set aside, and in addition to that having a closed season for three: months, during November, December sand January?
KB. CALVKKT:	Yes	sir.	1	think	it	is the lagioal
thing to do.
OHlhF JUSTICE LAZY,XI:	In other words, after your
fish spawn give t help a little chance to grow without killing them all off.
DE. SMITH:	is your idea, Mr. Calvert, when thee©
chicken halibut attain a certain sisse they would leave these grounds and go into deeper water, or into other grounds where the food is better adapted to their increased sise?
IiR. C'LviaiT:	They	seen:	to	scatter	more. Taking it
from the way they have been caught up to a certain else, seem to c ongrepate ir. vast numbers in certain prounds ; in other woros, there seems to be certain grounds that are a natural feeding ground for small, young halibut.
IIH- FOITV:	I	presume	it	is	evidence of that
char oter that prompted in the clause in f ho bill to a; iofc you had reference regarding certain areas.
acOBiTAHY KEJFlKL.o:	Captain	Gits	on, do you confirm
what Rr. Calvert has said?
r* f \
SL.i’ 'JOArTAIH GIBSON:	1 certainly do. Mr. CALVSBT seems
t o he on the right track.
DR. Si.11H:	Captain, could you indicate any other
grounds which, to your knowledge, contain a very large proportion of small si %ed halibut, and which sight, therefore, fee regarded as natural nurseries?
C APT A.Ilf G IBB OH:	Well, in regard to that question,
I might say that in the proposed bill, of whiah we wera tee originators, we also proposed setting aside a small piece of ground up in Alaska, on the coast of Alaska, that 7,e called a nursery, that is small in extent, and which 1 csn probably show by the chart (referring to the map of Alaska§•
LIE. BE OMIT:	That	is right in here by Noyes Island?
(indicating on map).
CA?TAIH GTBoOlT:	Between I-loyes and Ooronat ion Island.
2iH. BROW!?:	?he ground was laid off in the bill so % he
fishermen could qet the fishing grounds easily identified from the bill.
'Mi. hUGEES :	IS	t here an^ more feeding ground for sma 11
hal ibut ?
FUKRK \R 3TATLMSNT BY CAPT. JOES G1BS0H.
RR r ir GIBSON:	T	her-,	is	the Goode Island ground.
i cat is in Hecate strait. Rh© Goose Island grounds used to be our principal fishing place in years pone hy# and it wasalso known for s. great number of small fish. But there was also among the small fish a few of larger size, so t bat a vessel, by Soaking the small ones off the hooka, they could bring in full trips of medium-sized fish, or fish that would probably average from 15 to 18 pounds apiece. But we don't consider it practical to exclude that ground for the reason that we see no way in which it could be enforced.
It would practically take all the cutters they bad in Canada and the United States, and still 1 doubt whether they could enforce it. Hot that the fishermen are not law-abiding citizens, but the provocation would be so great they would ins 5 st on it.
Uow, we must remember that the most fishing is done by t he ston 11 sized vessels, that is, from fc h.e vesseIs themselves. In former years they fished in small boats, or dories, but now they have discarded that and they use power boats, as tney call them, winches, by which they haul the p.ear from the vessels themselves, so all they have to do is let out toe string of gear from the stern of the vessel and t uey start to haul ihem in again from the deck of the vessel, and nobody at a distance can say whether they are fishing or not. And if some one is coming alorp? they can a imply cut their line, and they have always the steam up, or they have the power poing , and all they have to do is simply po right along-------they are f>. oinp right a Ion* any-
way, end rave to "o a lit le faster, and there is no cuttercaptsin in the world oould. say whether that boat had beer fishing or net. Ana their operation is not confined to day time by any means. Any moonlight night, end, in fact, some nark nights, too, if there is fish on that ground they will fish. so the cutter captain would see if the water di.n't run very nice, and be wouldn't come out until nest aorning, that is, he wouldn't leave before daylight, and re wouldn't be up to the bark until nine or ten o'clock, and by ta't time that boat might have quite a lot of fish.
So 1 would consider it impractical to set aside the Goose Island ground.
S.-.Jj.ETASY H&DFIKLI):	Thank	you	very	much,	Mr.	Brown,
anyt hing further?
KB. BEQWF:	Why, that	is as far as 1 care to
ar. Secretary, on the closed season-	1 wanted to take	up
in brief nd introduce some evidence, principally documentary, on what has been called the closed port quest ion.
3r0HK7AKY HMD?IKID:	Can	you	finish	that,	you	think,	in
three-luartere of an hourf
HI,. BROW*?:	1 think: so, yes sir.
I think, ar. .secretary, that it ?.as been stated into the record that the scope of the Commission's authority was to nr ke measures, rake provisJons ard regulations which v.ould regulate, from a port st^ndpoiri,, certain fishery condi-15 ons during the	period of	the war.	7 he statement was	also
r.ane that it w rs	hoped, or	that t res-5 regulations made,
t/ Oor the evidence goin^ into this record might he used in determining a possible permanent solution of these question. And for fchfit reason I think that it would he well, from the American slandp int , to lay before the Commission t be present state in pounds and in dollar-- and cents of the deep sea fisheries on this coast from the American standpoint.
How, what I have to say, IRr. secretary, is no!HU any sense of recrimin^tion at all to our Canadian brothers/
1 am going to advocate s policy which I know is the policy of those engaged in the business on this side of the line* which is identical with that- adopted, and vary successfully adopted, by our Canadian brothers on the Sorth, and anything 1 may s^y is not to be taken in any sense as reerlmin* tory or bringing up anything of the past which is forgotten, or anythin# of that sort. And in referring to those matters* or to -,rd-- re in Council, or t o anything of that nature, it is simply to bring out the policy that has been used and the policy which Canada has .adopted, namely, that of endeavoring to build up the fisheries off the forth pacific out of Canadian ports. And we advocate, as a matter of national policy for the benefit of the Uniter' states as a whole, and the people of t be United States, too, as far as possible, developing the fisheries, an5 particularly so the American fisheries, on this coast, out of American ports.
There is no business, r. Secretary, that I know of that produces a dollar that is more	than	that of the freshbusiness. You don't have to firase and herd these fish during the year, ana winter-feed them, or operate them end do business on a swell margin* f he fist are raised and .satared by nature., and they are there simply for the investment of going oat and taking them wad marketing them.
The matter is of great national importance, not only to those engaged in the industry, but to those to whom belong the dories, and who manufacture the cotton line, and to tLose who manufacture the books, to these who manufacture and supply the oil and material, and manufacture t he workingman's clothing. the fact that the dollars nd cents value of the fish is f6,(K 0,000 a year in the fresh fish industry,from our standpoint, or from this coast, is not the confine of the business as an American business, ox because that #5,000,000 changes hands and 3 06 8 through channels of American commerce again and again and again.
3xfiC]5?RAEY B.aBi’IELB:	I	want	to	say,	Ur* Brown, before
you go on, this Coamiitfsien is in no way limited to the outlook of the war.
ISR. BB0&H :	That being the case, then the remarks mould
be til the a ore to the point* as this Conference might not only consider the matter for the period of the war, as the regulations wioh have to-day been put into effect are limited to that, hut might even so further.
Sue decline in the American deep sea fishery in thebfelihut industry, which has hcen the industry on this scant from the year 19IE to 1917, is very apparent from the statistical table which I will here introduce, the statistics he ins taken from the statistics published in the *acifio Fisherman and hy our own United states Bureau of Fisheries.
These statistics show that since the year 1912 the fishery at, for instance, Seattle, Washington, has declined from
27,000,000 pounds. In round numbers, in 1914 the highest year 35,000,000 pounds, down to less than 15,000,000 pounds. Toe same tshle shows that the hall hut landed at the port of Eetchiksn, Alaska, for instance, during the corresponding year have decreased from 7,0CO.000 pounds, in round
i
numbers, to 4,300,000 pounds. that the fishery has grown, for instance, from the Canadian port of prince Rupert during a corresponding period to 7,000,000 pounds in 191.3, t he port really not being open in 1-13, to 6,000,000 pounds in 1;-17.
Inaugurating a policy of developing the deep sea fisheries on this coast out of Canadian ports, the prior Orders in Council, which, up until the year 1915, hit6 permitted vessels to lend catches of fish in Canada and. trans-ship through the Eastern merket, the Orders in Council were altered enough to permit smaller vessels or regular type of fishing vessels not owned hy companies to market their fish in that way.
The Order in Council of December lOtfc, 1914, showing the policy and the other reasons for th change in the amendment, reads as follows. This is from the preamble of the order."fhe said privileges are restricted to foreigners or foreign corporations bringing fish in vessels registered in the Cnited states of America ana. shipping such fish in "bond direct from the vessels; and
"whereas. this prevents smaller vessels r bo'rts, the ca.tches of which will not make a carload, or the owners or operators of which may not be in a position to themselves ship their fish to toe Eastern United dtates markets, from availing themselves of the privileges; and
"peeress, the Minister of the Faval Service is informed that In view of the fact that prince Bupert is several hundred miles nearer the fishing grounds than Seattle and as the Grand Trunk rtoifie xttillifeiy id now o$erating, so fcuat fish oan as readily be ship red to the Eastern United 3 a, tea os; rketo from rrifle© Hu ert as from Seattle, if such boats and smaller vessels were permitted to go to -rince Bupert and sell their catches to some person or corporation which would in turn ship them in bond to the United States, and if such vessels or boats were then permitted to purchase supplies for their fishing operations a considerable number of them would transfer their base of operations from Seattle to prince Bupert, and woulcJ i robably later transfer their vessels or boats to the Canadian registry and permanently operate from rrince Bupert; and
"Whereas, the bonding and outfitting privileges r.ave teen renewed to vessels shipping their own catches direct, and it is deemed &5visable that such priv leges should for this ear be available to smaller vessels and boats; now
"Therefore, his xioyal Highness, The Governor-General in Council, is pleased to order and it is hereb ordered as follows:"And then follows the order in Council permitting She boats to land their oat; a he a there arid sell them, not in Canada, but right to the United States markets. fbis matter is brought out, as I say, Mr. Secretary, not with tbe view of reoriminat ion, or anything of $ bat kind, but simply showing the policy whic|? has been inaugurated in the Dominion to engage, and has successfully resulted, in their developing not only praetically all of their own fisheries out of their own ports, but 50 per cent of American fisheries out of their own ports.
row, the Canadian Order in Council of January 51, 1916, went one step further. The Order has been introduced in the record already, so I will not ~—
GHXaF JUST ICE HACKS:	Why do you say that policy was
i no ugura t e d ? I don't t hink % he facts warrant tha t s tate-
r^cnt. Shat occurred was, at the request of fishing companies desiring to sell their fish in the United States, American companies, this bonding privilege was given through porta in Canada to the United States, there wa an extension o.R tbit power, There was always tremendous hostility in Canada towards granting that privilege; there was groat public sentiment against it. it was felt it wasn’t fair to our people end was preventing us from building up a
fishery business w. ich it was expected we would build up
to grant the extension,
from our geographical position. It was sometimes difficulty The reasons for the Order in Council given were for the <ur-pose of .asking it easier to overcome the tremendous opposition.
3K0KM"AHY HKDaIELD:	It was far from being a definite
I	cl icy; it was an expedient running from year to year, and temporary solely in its character. We have got to be careful in all tfeesa matters to base our arguments not upon suspicion, not upon American or upon Canad Ian interpretations of t be sets of the other, tut upon facts.	flow, it was
stated by you as fact, and is not a fact I don't question your veracity or your good faith -------- it was slated as
a fact, has been repeatedly stated as a fact from Seattle sources, but it is not, a fact, that this was a policy deliberate iy adopted by .'an ad a for the purpose of transferring vessels from the American to the Canadian registry* Wow, that is not t rue.	! n is state % i©n t m s made to meet a 1 ocal op posi-
tion so strong, to the very setter wbich you speak of as Canadian policy, as to make it possible to continue it from yr-ar to year in order that the consumers of the united states might have th. benefit of 6 ho . bort line of railway for their fresh fish, and that's all. How, is that oo rect, Mr. Chief Just ice?
CHIEF JUSTICK hAZ&8:	That is correct. We always re-
garded it as a privilege extended to t he United states.
'I heir fisting vessels had no rights in our ports except under the treaty of 1EI8. Jnder that treaty they had no right to disohargeti.eir catches or ship them in bond, fe always considered it - privilege to the united states to
58ell o?- the fishermen, instead of tafcinp t m ir fish five or six hundred miles from there to ship it, to allow them to ship it through oar ports in bond to the United states.
cRaO ..RRAKY BaMXBXP: : Mr. Chief Justice, you answer this question:	you were an officer of the Canadian Govern
ment at ’.hat time, were you not?
CHIEF* JUS'RICE HAZE!!; I was, yes.
SaCEKTAB? KKDFIKU:	A	member of the Ministry, were yon
not?
CHIEF1 JUSTICE nmm:	Tea.
8ECBKTABY R^DPIEIB:	Was	it the definite policy of the
Canadian Government at any time to take *ny steps wi ioh deliberately looked toward the transfer of American vessels to Canadian registry?
CE1? JU3T1CK HA2J53:	lo, there never was.
SSQHaTAKX Bii;#lLy:	How, gentlemen, 1 think that all
further statements	based	upon	that assumption or interpretation st.-ould	cease.	You	have	hear3 the official statement
of & member of the Canadian government at that time that there was no such	policy- le	know	there was no such policy, you
cannot make	such a	policy by any interpre■ at Ion of ^ours of
their language.	therefore,I beg of you end it
so far ^s argument is concerned in future faofca which are presented. It in not a fact that there wa such a policy. ITow, V; it h tLt t off ic* al statement from the Minister in charge of the Depart ent at that time made hero as an official re? re-
PQ
yjsentat ive of ihe Canadian Government, that ought to end*
STAiKHEHT BY MB. 1. a. CLAFJK, SBCalf ART OF T'RX lOCIAflOW OF PACIFIC PI3BKHIBS, SHAT	IS.
MB. CXABK:	Mr.	Secretary,	may I ask this one ques-
tion, may 1 make this one inquiry?
3ECE BEAKY BBDFIBLB:	! don't know what it in, so I
oan*t ssy till I hear it.
SB. CLAH3T; All right. I would like to know whether we are to understand that the preamble in this ^rder in Counoil, which in the original I understand we3 made a part of the Order in Council, was intended to convey a statement that was not the fact?
BKX&IELX):	fell, you ask whether you may
ask that question. I will say vary candidly that the question implies a suspicion and a doubt tshich seems to me unworthy, tut the question has heen asked. X think it is not in my ovter to answer it except as I understand It, and if I an swer it a a a 0 id inp to a wrong und&rst and ing the Chief Justice will oorreot me. My answer is no. The statement is not a statement of policy. That has heen officially stated to you in your presence, l'r. Clark, within the last half hour. It is not ---------- it wes not a state-
ment of policy. Very candidly, such a statement of policy. If it were such, would he, to say the least, undiplomatic, exhibiting a purpose not wholly generous and kind. It was
COnever so understood Shat the Canadian Government took any suob attitude. And you have now heard officially tbe statement that It mis said in that form for the purpose of reconciling the opinion of Canada to a course intended for the benefit of the people of the united States, and age inst which there was serious opposition in Canada. How, what should rave been done, if you pardon my saying so, is
this, that instead of impugning ------- for it is impugning
the good faith ----- for it is no less ----- of a friendly govern-
ment, due inquiry should have been made as fee what the facts were before this was ever pub Holy issued. And if any government in this world chose to make its policy upon its interpretation of the language of other governments where it wee ooneerned without asking questions and learning the facts there ?,ould be no peace on earth. That, you can well understand, would be a German point of view. But it is not an American point of view. h® couldn't do business as a uat ion a yesi if ?,e rook every phrase used by ©very foreigh government with whom we act, addressed not to us, but addressed to their own officers, and put our interpretation upon that language, assumed an attitude without asking questions.
*?v• CVRK:	!Rr.	secretary, may I ask you, I don't see
where v.a eculd . o^aibly have gone to the Canadian Government, in view of this matter being a public document , in which it vz* expressly steted fei, i the finality of this would probably be the absorption of the fishing fleet which had previouslybeen operating out of iaserioan territory, and ask tLem whether they . ede that statement with a view to reconciling the people of Canada, or whether it was the statement of what they believed to be the final outcome of an Order In Council of that character. It seems to me that would have been highly improper, and that we auat therefor- assume this, as an official document, meant exactly what it stated, and that the purposes were exactly those that were outlined in the preamble as the means of procuring that Order in Council.
SECRET 'EY BE DF IB Id):	Whether	you believe that is so
or not, Kr. Clark, whether it was wise or unwise to assume a meaning of an official document of another country, addressed not to us but to its own offleers, without consulting the only authorized means of knowledge on that subject , namely, the department of tate, which baa those matters in charge, whether that wi.s right or not, it is ended now. You have the distinct disavowal of any such policy, and if you ask me to suggest what the proper procedure mould nave been I will say this, to communicate this matter to the department of ytate, c.oiLt ; for that purpose, which &lone has the right to interpret, b. inquiry, the relations of foreign governments to our own, rnd through tbe £tate Department inquire in the regular way wh*t the policy was. But to a.: same tbs. t policy to exist from our Interpretation of another's language not nddressed to us i3 not right, is not kindly, it is not diplomatic, andit is not oustomsry, and it wasn’t	done	elsewhere*
' H. C R' xM :	Mr, Secretary, we	have	been stopped	by
the suggest ton from t he Ooa&siisei on tb&t we must forget the pagi , forget all reoriain&t ions nd alleged iisarisatnat ions, and base thee hearings er.t irely upon the future. -—■
3	MG MKT AH1 BKDFIMLD:	I don’t say that at all, Mr. 31ark,
but 1 say, and I know that pou know, that the principle 1 laid
down-----or not 1 laid down, but the principle to be la 18
d own I s a sound _ r ino iple ; £ bet t op in ions, a nd $bove a 11 op i a i ons on a matter of as critical importance as this, sre to be based upon ascertained facts, and upon nothing else. Neither you, nor I, nor any other nan has a right to base public opinion esoept upon esrefuHy ascertained facts. That is particularly true where t ha .kindly relations of	two	great peoples	are	concerned. It is not right for me, and it	is not right	for	any
other man, to stake my individual opinion or interpretation of wLat another government may have said to its own officers based as a public disauision in my country without learning whether it be true or false. Mo?*, there was a nound and: lawful wav
r «/ provided bv la* for t be very purpose of covering matters of tais -ind. That way we a to inquire through the constituted sources what tee policy was which, in your judgment, was herein diaolosod.	Therefore it would Revo been quite in
order to inquir of thj state Department if this language was to be interpreted as expressing a deliberate policy or
not. 3 f that inquiry had been made to tbe constituted sources
r ot bear, are r would Lave come to you it was not. therefore, there would h&ve been an end to all t be controversy based upon this particular phrase. But that course was not taken. It was assumed in public discussion that your interpretation, or an Interpret,-, t ion —- 1 don't mean to make it personal in any
sense ---- that an interpretation not based upon inquiry, not
bfsed upon any effort trrough the constituted authorities to get it exactly, but based upon ex parte interpretation by parties interested, was not the correct one, I will say to you now, I never have understood, t hough 1 have been familiar with this phrase for months, that it ms t be expression of a deliberate policy, because you must look farther than any single phrase for an expressi n of policy, you must look farther than that. If the p licy was that upon tbe pacific it was the policy upon t he Atlantic, and it was the policy upon t11. R-re-1 * Lakes, yowt l am sure shat your judgment will at last, if it does rot at present, concur that you can't go, you can't go in internat ional relation© upon the interpreta-tion of a single phrase made without any official inquiry and without any question whatever as to the meaning of t bat phrase from the person who uttered It, l wouldn't ^u$pe you that way, Ur. Clark.
MB* CLARr :	Vay x complete now what 1 had undertaken to
say? It was ray uniersianding that we were especially requested to avoid submitting to iris Commission at this time anything that mi a t appear to be recrimination or evidence ofdiscriminations in the pest,on the ground that those 11 im?s had 11 teen wiped oat ; that wo were asked to make statements of fact T.ith reference to conditions which must necessarily be future conditions, ar.d can only be theory ana not fact.
’or my irt it was ,y ;urpose, and la still my purpose, not to subsit in any forffi before this CommIasion any staterne n t pertaining to past discriminate ions to bring about any particular condition on the part of one side or the other, but to jor.fine myself % o sls^ly cross questioning of people vmo have appeared upon tMa: st'-nd, and from whom the Commies ion have been pleased to inquir as to certain past conditions.
And bad we not teen stopped by our concurrence with the views, as I understand H, of this Commission, from the introduction of statements pertaining % o past conditions, of the statements of Individuals pertaining to past coral i-t ions, I t1ink that we would have been able to Lave sbown to t his ronorable Comr-i&sAon that wbatev r may have been the intent and purp03f of Canada, or the official government of our friendly neighbor ari ally, end I count them as such, that %e won.13 have been able to lav,, drained from the facts tbat exactly t i «t c and i 11 on was i n p rag re s s a nd t tea t t hat would Lave b«en ' he final result.
£nd inasauoh as s tie ..onorntle secretary has mentioned the Atlantic joasi in connection wit a this tt\ingfc 1 am acre tfcat to uns r.ot yet forgotten ire en parte hearing which
took pi: oe in Kin off toe, in whicii, under Atlantic Coast
^ r*
O tJconditions and the ;^odus prcvendi that was identical in ail its terms, or rather in most of ite terms, with the Order in Council which pertained to prince Bupert, it was admitted in his presence and in mine that there were transfers of vessels on the Atlantic Coast from American to British resist ry in o r cl - r to o b t a 5 n t h e a d van t a ge a w t i c h «ould accrue to vessels of that aountry over end above, t hose u m t . o a I cl a a c r ue t o A me rican vessels o p e ra ting und e r t; ose conditions. I reier particularly *.o transfers of vessels from American to British registry. It so happened at the . art of Newfoundland with the Gordon & pugfe Fisheries Company, some ight in number from that company and two from a subsidiary corpora*ion* And, hr. secretary, I think you will recall teat this admission was made by the attorney of the Gordon & ;Jugh Company, who came there at that time to protest against legislation which had been .proposed for the pacific Coast.
And I want to say further at this time, hr. Secretary* as I don’t know that 1 shall be on my feet again in this hearing, that personally l as of the opinion that on neither side should there be anything done that should be of 8 permanent c	ould we ir:	ejec-
tion to the Administration of t be United states entering into any form of an agreement with the Aaminist rat ion of our friendly ally to i> he fjorth tb&t will dispose of fisheries in any manner they see fit for the period of the v.ar. But
r r*
O	Olet us not forget this, that our hoys from the fisheries who are of Rimerican birth or American citizenship on this ooast are many of them in the trenches in Flanders and in Prsnoe fi gating, as ha3 been stated, side hy side with our allies froni the Morlfe and our allies from France and from Britain, and that they have no voice in these masters at the present lime; that ~:o far as % he fisheries are concerned on this coast, most of our men of American <$i%i&enfship and	of	mil t&ry	service age	have either enlisted or have been
placed	in ;la s	One subject	to Imme-imte call, while those
that are left are those shat are not of military age or of alien oilisenst ip an& not subject to tfest call. And it seorr.s to fee that a permanent solution of all questions of that kind between the United states ana Canada should await a 13me when these man ah.a 11 have returned, and that m® cannot	forget the faat that we	must have an American fisheries
and	an	American	industry in	which those men from our side
must seek ciaployment when -hey return, as we must have a Canadian fisheries and a Canadian fishing industry from which tte residents of )ac&da must find employment when returning froc. tr se same fields of battle,
bKCl-R rAHY fimT/?I3L'i):	How	many, Hr. Olar.M, American
citizens of military age, that is to say, from 21 years to SI, wert employed prior to April, 1917, in the Coast fisheries of the United States on the pacific coast?
lii. C RA1 :	r r. secretary, in view of t fee suggestionmade by the Commission on I fee first day of the hearings in jeatt-1;, ; state my inability to fur: ish any statements of that kind and character.
SKOaSP Sf HSWIBED:	Let	me ask you to supply, or
cause fro be supplied, or, broadly, from any source., to cause to be sup?lied from any available records the same i:ind of information c-oncer r.ing % he pacific Coast- which was supplied concern ins t fce At last ic Coast, and which appears on e'.ge 380, exhibit ftIff of the printed testimony of the Conference, in that case it will be noted Mr. E. P. Brown, Local Agent of t he Bureau at Gloucester, sad© a canvass of the Gloucester fishing fleet for the purpas© of d©terminin tte net ion*lity of the crews., it appeared from I hat that the .orlion of American citizens in the crews of ell ages miB 754 oat of £,095.	1 would respect fully ask that in-
structions be iven by the Sonias i oner of fisheries to represent them in this city, also Mr. Brown, to obtain a definite statement as of the month of April, 1-17, if that be possible, or of the present date if that be impossible, t oge t her with a s t aemant of t be number t hi t hr. ve enlist ed oi t it c it!m 0 I am nai, iorality of the a m it | America r. fishing vassels.
J U DO p< GR cl SDK:	You	me	a	r:	enlisted or t h oee i tea l h& ve
gono to t be front?
cRvCR./R. ' HY w; ?Ia.' it her one. 1 aean broadly.
T he comm is .•> ior., gent 1 emec. t need no ar#asmnt wha t over t o induce its American members to believe in the permanentdevelopment of an American owned and manned fishing industry. It isn't neeen-mrp', though It is welcome, to urge jpon us tbat that be on? . *s he I isn’t necessary; thfet !g not what we ere discus sing. A a : we must adhere strictly and closely to the i o int. of discussion % *11 we dispose of it. the thine that we have been discussing is not whether there should be an American fishing industry. Of ccurse t he re is going to be an American fish lag industry, and of course every American is goistf fee do his most to get it* But for the American government, in & ooimounis&t Ion from m as one of its officers to one of mj officers .in ie&ttle, expressing my views to him. to be taken across the line te the Rorth and, without inquiry as to Its purport, to have it assumed to laean same thing it doesn’t mean, and which, when brought to ay attention I deliberately and publicly find officially disavow, that would be wrong. How, that la what has been done, amd it ought never to appear again, low,
1 am perfectly willing to do justice lo the Axserloan fishing industry in ev ry way that car: be pointed out and promote it in every ;ossible way. 1 deem It for the good of Canada ti.&t take place, and 1 deem 51 for the good of Canada she have the largest fishing indastr‘ es she can get. l don't t Link, the two should ever be offset the one against t te otter. 1 kno« of no reason for anyone's ever having done so.
RR<. :;j, A;iT:	Rhere would bo a vast difference l e t weent
a communication wr;ich tbe Honorable Secretary of commerce sight address *;o a subordinate in his -service and the published cofc-ifiiur.Icat 1on, vbich is in fact an Order in council, end tfce ia?. of 6he land, which is, therefore, not a private communis? tlorn, but a public ccmmunicat ion, and an avowal of what it contains, it; ?»oald appear to me.
C.,CRv.R; RiRR haDFlLID; You have heard the statement , in the first place, wr. Olarka tou are mistaken. XI was not **hs law of the land, tbi« statement, and 1 think we ought to te careful not to assume in this discussion where we are trying lo get- together, not to a am ins or re ct meanings. That phrase ms never the law of the land, find you should never have said it was. The Order in council was the la'* of the land, but you have heard it disavowed —- the meaning you have put upon it you hr-ve beard disavowed. How,-isn't it the part of courtesy to say W1 ms mistaken1* and forget it and em right t be ref
J U aC . 0 U VI ;i 03 :	V.r. 3 e c r eta ry, might it no t b © he 1 p fu 1
to us If the Commission would sfca* e what the force of an Rraer in Council w?-s, or is, a Canadian Order in council**
:.y understanding of it may be erroneous, and 1 would be very glsd if Hr. Chief Justice would e^pl&in to us wh&t is %l e status of an Order in Council.
Oh I.a JU3R1CK BR.'Ral’:	This	Order	in	Council	was	for	the
period of one yaar.JVI-3& CIMTKIMXM Any order in Council.
CHI a? JliP"	XCM	HASKK:	It wasn't	if- any sense the permanent.	lav,	of	a,	land-	Ifc was the	law during that one ye^T.
At the	en.i	ot	1 he	yeer it	wouldn't be the law again unless
at t he	end	of	the	jear that Order in	-Council was -sgain-
re ne wed.
JUR.M; Cirri CRT:	But during t hat period i % was % be
law of the land?
CHIEF JifS^XGH BASMK:	Had	%	fee	effect of the law during
that period.
J r'h R *M’I3OM :	T he del®gated poner from t he 1 egiala11 v#
aut h or it y to t be 0 ounc 11
0E3 i? junior: HASEr:	Under legislation the governor
in counts 11 tad the power to put in effect for one year that order.
JU 1 Q;7Hl,-jO?r:	And that order is an Order in council?
I an a Si. ins really for informat ion* An Order in council is the result of \ he action of the Governor . in Council and bis counsellor sitting in counsel, is it not, or is it t be act merely of * he governor alone?
CHI'. F JU.M 1CM HA2KM:	Oh, no. Under our constitution
the Governor acts on th advice of his constitut ional ad-vlsore.
JUR M. 8u?T-*I3-0!r:	That is what X understood it to be.
Yes sir.dTJ	Of	im* &• C. fiCTOSKS, TIC:., OE&XIEAt
OF TEK JOA3SC& 38E3MS ?X3&£HliS8, 3M?f£E, WA3E.
13. EUOHES:	Kr. 3se etary, X only wsnted to asy s
word. In opening t fcc mat :;@r cn behalf of the Alaska Bureau that is now before you I endeavored to state what, our elms e.rd purposes wer* at the time, t* as&ed Kr. Brown to arrange such evidansh1 as w? thought it appropriate to off or in support of the outline	of policy cover-.d by	my statement. I
wa nt vt o m j% h a t t he	q n s s 1i o e p r o p o und e d 1	s no t on	our behalf,
cor does it tee* 6 my personal sense at all. 1 think, after the statement of r", Justice Baser., "here is no <iuvsfc ion before us as to whet ifee motives of Cans da were. I want to say this, t he t If toe motive had been quite the contrary, I don* t t h inK 11 * o u 1 c5 haro b eer. lapr o p e r a a e na t i one 1 mo t ive.
/.a I view it, what is to be consider 0, oughl to be considered really only aftor fc&e war is ended, The war period,as I Dave 1cdic»ted, is not the sime for se1t1ament of nationa1 polic i e s. f h is is 8 groa t n at i o nai q us a fe ion* f h a. t we wa n ted to offer was evidence thst ten -*d t o show what results would flow from ft given course of seller* not to raise fc r.e quest ion whether ther was a proper or improper motive. I t a ink it would be perfectiy proper for the United states to endeavor, by any lawful wa'-, to try to builS up its fishing industry, even if in floing so it diin* t result to the utmost favor of Cent da. I think equally 51 would le perfectly proper for Canada, by any lawful means, to endeavor	to build	up its
fisting industries #	ev^c if it tended to	ejc&l t or	expand	those
70industries to the disadvantage of the growth of the fisheries of t * e United states. Undersr ft rS, X do not think i is proper for either n&ion to So it by any indirect or improper or uaconscionshie metbod* We were simply proposing to introduce certain documents which "sould follow- 1 don't think it wa s ^ r. Brounf s p orpose----
1KXEF JUSTICE 8/239:	Mr. Eughes, if you pardon me for
interrupting you, .jr. Brown said this was the deliberate intent ion and policy of Canada. 1 wanted to point out it was not, because at the end of the year we could hi ve changed the policy entirely, and we were really eatending & privilege to the oaericar. citizens in t he face of very great opposition of Canada, in doing so.
'B. HUCK^S:	Hr. Just ice, 1 think your quest, ion tmd your
com: ent following it was s. very proper one. Undoubtedly Mr. Brot.n parr** ps aeed a statement that, on reflection, he would correct as was corrected by you. I merely want to say that if i:r. Brown proceeds with tfce introduction of tfcla evidence it is only that there may be laid before this Body, or any other Bodies that must negotiate treaties, or enact laws, facts wrick. %ould indicate what may be wise n&ti on^l policies for this country, that'3 all.
8 Ada a -BT BKD?IhX,I>:	To	that	here	is	no	possible
objection, and it; is welcome.
IRm. -.UC;jRp:	1	want	it	understood	we	are	not influenced
o
f*by any other motive or purpose,
$£C1 ri.RABY EB&fXIXR:	he only objection fehst has been
made is made to callinp tha-1 a definite rolicy| which was mot
tjO , t h-S t * S fri-l i. «
C.RRA1T CIBcOF:	If	we	assumed that the c&n&dian govern-
ment a Id not 1 ntend to a. ivert i he Arner ican f ishing var eels from the American to iho Canadian registry i would like to have something explained. It was said it was done for t he benefit of I he American public and the American fishing, that the Gsj. dian ports have opened so that the American fish could tf brought o the American market at less expense and in a shorter time than if landed in American ports. Sow, why was it, shen, that t. l.. Canadian Government Lad persisted rigfct along in forbidding the '-meric&n vessels to .1 i&pose of their oat, ohes in an * mar icon oort sffcer owing hen-n supplied with bait in Canada? They have made that plain.and, iri fact, they avve enforced it right along, that if a vessel took bait in Canada they must also bring their catch back there.
SiC.RnTAKY K.iD^InlRD:	I 1fc ini* ?r* Pound would be fi ad to
enswer the question.
lit- ?00rj>:	deems	to	be some misunderstanding. If the
earlier Orders in counail are read in connection with the one t, wi.lot Captain Gibson nas referred the reason f r it will be ot! erved a i, yr.ee. I he earlier Orders in Jounoil provided U at any vessel coming with it.3 fish to ship in bond to a port in tht* i.nitvd -tato3 -.i?bt buy bait. When the vesselsbegan to coca in gr at r numbers it was brought up by an American vessel right h-.^re in Seattle --- 1 forget the mm of it — 'bhti they were finding it disadvan tag#oas not to be allowed t o corns and get a baiting in t he first Instance, t hey we re entitled to it. If they o ;me in with a cargo of fish , Uien such vessels mis.ht buy bait* But there hr8 a shortage of bait over here at one if©©, an6 plenty over t sere, and that brought ■ m- question up as to why e vessel mi.%fct.not come in and §et a baiting before going to the fishing ^rour '*s. so what was done ws*.; an extension of wfe&t had previously been done. 3o in pi. je of requiring a vessel to come with their f i 3 fc a nd p - r. c i ng ti a e m 1 n b ond a he m i g h t g e t t hem at t h e out so t if sbe would a£ree to return 10 that port with her cargo.
:R CM.aMABY KM.;?IKX»i):	In	other words, Mr. Found, if I
under rM .« n1 yoa, als Act waist has bean criticised, as we know, wae done, in "he first insfear.ee, n the request of an American ve ssel?
llli. MOUKD:	This	extension,	yes	sir; that is whet brought
it up.
M.C M. M,Y. 1Mi)F JR. Mi):	1 point out the iaportauce, Captain
iibsor., <; o all ‘.has© things before ?.o make public assertions of policy ox 0e.t;jnp the foots by inquiry.
CLARK:	Hr.	•'	: S , I	RaM It han always
been tr.e policy of Canada in extending bait to an ?merJoan vessel o e;<f.oi v he cargo of fish >n return, was it not?
Uh. •';LTR:	Rhe order in Council, in % be first instance,
ry r~
4 <3provided in sncb terms that vessels coming to Canadian ports, or words to that effect, to place their fish 1b bon6 might do otter things, amongst them, buy bait.
l/ir:. CIAHK:	But you did not permit them to buy bait in
advance unless they brought the fish in advancet or agreed to bring it in?
Cl I ;? JUSTICK FlAZBV:	Vie gave thm the privilege of
coming into our ports with fish ami bonding 1.6, and they i&ere allowed to buy bait in our ports. That was a right granted to the American fishing vessel which no American h vessel had a right to do, or ship its fish in bond. We gave them that trehty and	said	ou	shall have that privilege
when you bring pour	fish	into	our ports”. Then they said
”uby shouldn't we have the	right	to buy bait before we go	to
too fishing ground?”	we	said	"All right, you can do it	on
the same conditions.”
IIB. HUGH'3:	Mr.	secretary,	I	do	not	consider	it either
unfriendly or unethical, we only allude to these things —-3£CI~JS7AEY KKDPIELD:	It. Hughes, you bear in mind as a
lawyer this fnot, which is well known, had no rights in the matter ft all under a treaty to which we had officially assented.
B. HUGHES:	nothing unfriendly or unethical.
iVOlj; AEY EF.DFIEIj:	We had agreed to a condition our-
selv 3, nad agreed to a condition which did not wive us this ri ?ht ir. rny of its form, ao that whatever right was given,
V ' /-»Hr. Hughes — I am still so dress ing you, Mr. Hughes — so tr.st whatev r right wa • given waa over and above anything
we he a any 1 ;wf il right to els is. low, isn't that so, Mr. hughes?
ME. HUGHS3:	Certainly.	Our	only	content	ion is that
if such a poliay in wise &r.a ethical for the® some kindred polioy might be wise and ethical for us.
UKCfciTABS BLDFIEM:	f	hat	la a perfectly fair argument,
but that policy Us ceased to exist,.
9
JUDOa DU^RI 30K:	That	is	what	I had in mind to s&yf
I r. Secretary sndgentlemen.
Oala? JUST JOE KAZ&P:	That condition^ of course# has now
entirely ceased to exist.
JUDGK GUJTlSOlf:	las,	true. The result of it baa a double
advantage. It bad the advantage of giving the American fisherman an opr.-ortunity to buy bis bait in Cansd% but at the same t ime it h d the commercial value to t be Canadian port of the disbursement of money which the American fisherman obtained for fish to be shipped in bond in to American territory, end xfin spend it in the Canadian territory, whicb is a very distinct advantage to the community r t whioh t be fish is 1^- eded.
CalR.P JUSTICE vAZK! :	It is an advanta ae both ways.
ORaR'HY Hr-DFIKL./:	hnt iroly a mutual affair.
*'H. RKOSa:	I t Link, R!r. Secretary, I can probably finish
t t.is In ten or fifteen minuses.
y^j ?.y i iic; A H3f BED 1? 3 a I. J:	I	be	ve	got	to go i us ide of tee n
ciinuT es*
KRa BBOb;T:	1 wish to make this statement right now,
Hr. Secretary. 1 concur heartily in what Mr. Hughes has an id.	1 would have said the sa m % 11 ng had he not been
an alder gentleman and entitled to preference to myself on the floor. 1 understood, Mr. Jeoietary. that not only that clause, but other matters, other documentary evidence I intended to introduce . little later on, would show such a policy as a policy of Canada in 4 ae matter, and I agree with whet Judge Hughes has said, I don’t consider it is an improper policy. it in not said in the spirit of reortainat ion, aa 1 attempted to |.oint out in the first place.
CKCMaRArPL KKBFIBLJ:	But w. must not build up an argu-
ment on tra- assertion if,at a policy exists that didn’t exist, that’s all.
LE. mxr:	Roll,	.1	am	going	to	introduce other maters,
Mr. secretary that %ill follow that matter out. But 1 wish to state right now, x take the Chief J st ice's statement as he a>ade it, at loo per cent, don't discount it an iota* Probably ne better wait till p.ftor lunch.
SMCRrR:AHY H3P?IKLI):	7be Commission will adJoum to meet
again at a quarter past two.
R3* CLAIR- :	1	peffectly agree in everything Mr. Hughes
ha3 said in reference to the policy of our neighbor to the orth. 1 think if that w-»s their policy it wna a per ectly
Y*1 O
4	Oright and roper policy on their part, and I bat# no c c 1 s " to make of the policy.
3aCKa?AHY	:	All	right,
CL I.,? JOS' ICS m. AXKW:	Accept	the	apology.
(AWOUH83SD)
rit i-THURSDAY, MAY 9, 1918, 2:15 pa IS.
F0KTEEK dRAThlClRUT BY BOW* ffltJIAU R. HEBFlBLp:
SECKSTaBY BEDF1BL.):	The	meeting	will please come
to order, ws will resume the hearing at once.
Mr* Brown, with your permission, I will take the liberty of insert ing in the record st the same place where thin wss put in by you, at the place where exhibit *]§* was inserted by ! r. Brown, with the following notes soncom ins the same.
1 notice in referring to the above named exhibit, that while th , e was a falling off in the total receipts of talihut at all ports in the year 1917, which amounted to a little over 3,000,000 pounds in ail, t m% the greater part,—
more tban nice tenths of it---------was the falling off in the
receipts at Canadian ports; that the American ports of Seattle and Ketchikan substantially maintained their business, the failing off oi tee two together jointly being but one-tenth of the ent ire fai 1 ing 'off. To be esac%, t;he fa 11 ing off in the port of Seattle was S60,135 pounds; the falling off in the port of Prince Rupert was 1,136,395; the felling off in the port of Ketchikan was 993,011 pounds; the falling off in the port of Vancouver was 1,691,000 pounds. The total falling off of receipts of halibut in the two porta of Seattle and Ketchikan was 379,446 pounds. The total falling off In Prince puoert
Q
O	\Jand Vancouver together' was t,829,595 pounds. On the other hand, a comparison Is made for the enters period of six ye?rs. We find that the falling off in the port of Seattle sr.d t re falling off in the port of Vancouver Is sab stent 5 ally tbe same, that in Seattle for the entire period being l,574tlco pounds, ?~nd s hat in Vancouver 1,188,000 pounds.
If, on t:e -.-t. her band, we pick the highest poi$t of the port of Seattle and compare it with last year the falling off in that 08se is 19,648,400 pounds. But the last year, of which there is a record, shows that the falling off in the two Canadian ports is more than eight times as great for that year as the falling off in the United states ports. In other ?»ords, the two United states ports have substantially maintained their business and the two Canadian ports show a marked falling off. 1 think that should be noted at that point.
l a. BEQWff:	The	reason	for that, : r. Secretary, is this;
I he reason of that is not dependent upon the economic condition of the fishery as between ports, but because of the fact that the Canadian Fish & Cold Storage Company of prince Rupert did not fish her steamers during the month of December and that the Canadian ?ishing Company of Vancouver, a subsidiary for the Hew ^npiand Company also, because of the bad weather this last winter, did not fish her steamers as intensively; and the falling off at the port of Vancouver in recent years is due to the fact that the New England Fish Company and itssubsidiary, t he Hew England Fish Company, Ltd, , have not teem able to set the fish, they have fished the sasas number of boats practically, but it has been due to she condition of the-fishing grounds end the condition of the weather during those months, because the hulk of the fishing on the Canadian side is done by company vessels, while on this side it is done hy individual vessels, so it is more the way the fisuing was done,and of the weather Ror last yea2.
SiiOJ-jsTAKY KhDFIBLP; I will be very glad to have you go right, ahead, Kr. Brown.
FUHTHLH S!ATiSMiiflT BX *£. BDWIlf J. BROW:
MB. BEObT ; I simply wish to refer at this point to the order in Council of January 51, 1916, which added the regulation that has been touched on here this morning and cban-?ed t he sit uat ion only to the extent of requiring Amer 1 can fishing vessels to sign a written undertaking to bring their fish to a Canadian port when they .act bait .at such port without havin« 1 r.ded fish there from a preced ing trip. The statistical table that waa introduced and referred to will show the effect that this regulation had during that year.
Also certain other documents that 1 will later introduce will also stew the added effect. I understand that that bait restriction has beer, removed, an . 1 wish, in the spirit of perfect fairness to admit that it willte a decided advantage to American fishermen*
Q O
O fQ80
The Order in Council of January IS, 1118, 1 will not introduce into the record, as it does not materially change the situation. But there should be reference made here to the recent Order in Counoil which has praot Icelly at tbis time resulted in the free exchange of ports.	That is % be
Order which you referred to the other day.
SiSC SRAKY R&DPIKED:	Those are all in the record?
^i.B EGSff:	Ti.ose are in tbe record, 5as sir*
I 3r*a 11 introduce at 11.ig t ime an an axhibit, a qqpj of the written undertaking, that American fishermen were required to sign under the Order In Council of 1916. And i wish .also to state, gentlemen, that during that 15 me that American fishermen wera req ilrad to sign this undertaking when petting bait at Canadian ports, or Canadian beats were getting ba5t at American ports without, restriction, that we were giving more than they did on the Few England coast, that we were allowing Canadian fishing boats touching on American ports to take on bait at that time, and I will introduce a statement of that bait that was taken on.
In June, 1216, a very important interpretation was mad© in the Order in Council of March 9, 1315, in which the words "trans-ship to a port in the United States”. These words allowing the transporting of fish to the United states were interpreted to refer to railroad shipments only. It was also interpreted to refuse to allow trie fish of American firms
to go b;: 3tea er from E pert to Vancouver and then by rail,
c oalthough that was later changed, but it was found that it *E8 3e a necessity of the handling of fish three times end was not f rac\ ical or feasible. Teat interpret** .ion, although it bed been originally interpreted to allow shipments by steamer from the date of the passage of the Order in March,
1915,	until June, 1916, it mb t ben interpreted to refuse to el low them to ship t be fish by boat to Seattle by either American or Canadian steamers, American caught fish, until November 27, 1916, when it was again re-interpreted to allow the shipment of those fish, low, 1 have & statistical
table-----it is not- at hand now, but 1 will get it if you
desire it for the: record------that will show that prior to this
interpretation in June, 1916, that American concerns tfcst had established branches at rrince Bupert ware doing over 50 per cent of the business, and that during the time that this interpretation was in force that their portion of the business went from over 50 to under EC per cent.
8MCHMIRRY R^DFIBaD:	Whilewe are on that subject 1 will
ask Mr. ?ound to make such statements in connection with it as he tLinks best.
2RK. POUND:	The shipment of fish by boat from a Canadian
port o pea'tie went on under the previous Orders in Conn# oil, an.i was the understanding of the j apartment of which the Fisheries Branch is a part. The Customs Department, which administers the bonding arrangement, when it cam© to its at tent ion that this was going on, which 3 understand v,
a dwas in the month of May, 1916, immediately discontinued the practice, as its interpretation was that the bonding of fish could only be by rail* that shipping out by boat was an export. The matter was taken up departmentally ana took some time, but eventually the Department of Customs came to accept the view that was taken by our pepart-ment and the later instructions were given.
MB. BBOVn-l:	In lovemfcer?
13. FOUKI):	On % he date that you give, and the previous
order of trings again begun.
3KC &MABY BE.M? aLP:	Then, if the Commission under-
stand s you correctly, Mr. Found, this matter arose from a difference in understand ing between tv.o departments of the Canadian Dove rr: me n t ?
ME. FOUBD:	Xhat was it entirely.
3KCRMMAKY BHDFIBLD:	And	throughout thlsperiod the depart-
ment having the fisheries in charge held the view that these shipments b^ way of Seattle should be allowed to continue, and insisted upon its view, whiot finally prevailed, is that the fa c t ?
LB. FOOH2):	T	hat	is	it,	yes sir.
FUITaMM	BY MK. V.ILRIM" OAET iff, JB.
13. CALVrMiZ :	i just wanted t o direct your attention t-o
•	1 fchink thh.$ statement should be qualified $ little,
p rr
o	uThat is true &s far as the actual feats are concerned, but for t- period of two years we were unable f»o ship from Prince Bupert to Seattle by boat.
S&CBKfAK¥ BEDFIELD:	Two years, was it?
MB- C/Ta/R;HT:	For a period of two year a And this
other regulation was only modified after a great deal of wrangling and some other matters bad been taken up in connection with it.
!RK. FOUND:	May	I ask Mr. Calvert if shipments did
not go by boat from Prince Rupert to Seattle prior to Us. y, 1916?
Mi. C'.LV&KT:	Tes,	the statement he makes there
that 50 per cent mas bought by American ---------- th83§ figures
1 don’t know ------ but quite a large quantity anyway was
bought fcy American instituttions, of wnich quite a percentage ^as rc-shipped to Seattle, because we handled it that v.ry ourselves. Then that shipping, or trans-shipping by boat; from Rrinae Hu ert to Seattle was discontinued entirely, we weren't allow to ship that way, and that con-tinged for a period of approximately two ^ears, that we were not allo?*ed to ship from Prince Bupert to Seattle by boa t.
SKCKbXAKY BhBFIEaj):	What two years were these?
LIB. CALVKRT:	Sell,	j can't say on that. Just from
memory I v.ouad say after we started to operate in Prince Rupert for a flatter of-------or., a fe^ months, severalmonths. That mould be, well, 1 don’t remember dates. It was only for a short period, then it was discontinued entirely and only reinstated here, 1 think, last fell, or last summer.
MB. *OUH£:	Kr. Brown gave you the dates* It we3
reinstated on stout the same date on which it was stopped.
It was stopped only a few days.
KK. C/.LVEKT:	1 think you ere wrong on that.
13* CLAER:	Did the order reinstating it grant the saaae
privil ges ss had existed prior to June, 1916?
I-rR. FOTJKI):	T he order wasn't changed at all.
•vK. OLA i.7 :	I mean the interpretation?
3 K* 90UK£:	The interpretat ion re-established what had
been p 5 ing or. prior to June or I'ay, whichever it was, 1916, hB. GLAK2T:	Prior to June lo, 1916, it was the r.-ract ice
of tbe American firms to handle their vessels, to handle their surplus catch that was not required for pastern shipment either by Canadian or American, steamers, from Prince Rupert direct to Seattle. As I understand it, the second interpret!- 4 Son permitted only the handling of that fish from Prince Bupert by Canadian boats to Vancouver, and thence by rail to points within the United spates, and that it was not until ti.is recent order, which 1 think was in March of this year, throwing open the whole question, thefc people could shi their fish direct from frince Rupert to Seattle.
I.E. FOUITD:	Mr.	Brown	explained to you that was not thecase,
3KGKK7AHY E£R#lhLB:	That	was	not	the	case?
HE. FCOTD:	Yes.
. 3. C-lLVEiRT:	I	think 1 stated that pract ioslly from
an operating standpoint, because 1 know that we tried to ship the fish down, and we shipped from prince Rupert to Vancouver and we re-si ipped here, but the cost was exorbitant .
13* CIA; Until December Slat, that is, from June XO, 1916, until December, or November 27, it was impraot ical to ship direct fromPrinoe Rupert to Seattle, subsequent to that time they could ship, but at that time 1 believe all the American boats bad been withdrawn.
13. FQtOT:	Yes,	it was between these months. It
was in Ha;/, 1 think, in the first instance, the Department of Customs gzv& a certain interpret&tion which stopped the shipment by boat. Later, but before November of that year,
they modified — we have been carrying on correspondence --------------
they modified their interpretation in the manner explained by Lr. Brown; that is, that shipment by boat which was coast -wise trtde might take place to Prince Bupert and then be shipped out by bond by train, which was the manifest arrangement to be arranged by bonding. That wont on for some wee Ira. hut n ovember of that year the final instructions were given which re-established what hed been the case prior to lay of that year.ME. HUGE$3:	May	I	have	just	a	word.	^	don't want
ttis discussion to get us away from our purpose in the introduction of t-nis evidence. That there would be a a i ff0renoe of qonst rue 11 on bet ween t wo d epar tme nt a in the Canadian Government is not- unusual, because we have just cucb differences In our own country. If there is anything, u usual or improper about it we don’t; suggest .It, because there mas nothing unusual about it, and it would have been perfectly proper to apply the earlier construction as. the interpretation. Our only purpose of introducing it is to show what is the effect of a given policy. Either of these policies would be perfectly legitimate for a nation to adopt, and that is all we wart to consider.
o^CKRR AHY ER.D?IisIT):	1 should want to qutnnion your
legitimacy. however, if you mean within their legal authority I will accept it; if within tbe comity of nations,
1 should say no.
:T<. HUCh:iS:	If it was w5 t bin the comity of nations
1 don't see why, unless there was some mut al understanding on oar iart, or unless we were adopting a different course, then it wouldn’t be common. But if we wore not adopting a different course in our relations we think it wouia be perfectly proper and nothing wanting in comity.
FUHTELI, #	BY	’JR. EDWIE J. BRCm.
MK. BROV.y:	Now, the same construct ion, i:r. Secretary
89snd IRr. Chief Justice, that I placed upon the Order in Council of larch 9, 1915, which the C; ief Justice has explained, I was not alone in thet construction of it* bec&use the same construction we s not only taken on	our	sitle	of t	he line,	hut
was taken in western Canada, and 1	wish to	read	from the
written statement from A. iMndvog, was one of Captain Gibson's predecessors in office as manager of the Fishing Vessel Owners Association.
CElsF JUiRJCK HA2K2T:	Who	is this st&iement made to?
ME. BE CHS:	This statement was made in writing and
sent in to the Department.
CE1F JUST IC K HIZW:	in to the depart ment where ?
'RK.	in Washington. I will not introduce
tfc whole thing, because some of it is irrelevant, and this will nerve the purpose of showing	the	same	construc-
tion was placed on it.
"About the year 1900 I built the halibut schooner 'Daisy', th». n tfce largest halibut bo^t on this coast. I am now part owner In the schooner 'Albatro s'. in 1914 I was the business manager of the Inderandent yessel 0wners Associstion and during that time it was my duty to look after the inter sts of the fishermen under general business conditions find the laws ox this country. During that ye-r a certain Canadian gentleman called upon ce and tried Ro argue me into the belief that it would be better for the American fleet to transfer to Canadian registry. He stated he thought we would like it there so well that later we would do all of our fishing out of their ports. He waa the manager of a Canadian Cold storage Company at prinoe Bupert."
How, an extract from the . rir.ce Rupert Dispatch*
under late of japtember Ir15,t--3.2CBRTABY E&DFIKXB:	Will you let- me take that letter?
MI;. BBOWK:	(Handing same to the 3ac.ietary).	1	might
state tbat at. the time that letter was sent in you thought is mould be not expedient to do any more campaigning on that bill, tvA your instructions were followed on that matter.
This extract is a irince Bupert dispatch under date of September 19, 1915, end wnn published in the "Victoria Colonist'1. It is quoted follows:
"Prince Bupert, B. 0. 3epfc. 19,- It is est imated by independent f ish@risen here that by tbe new year at least sevsn-eighths of the Puget Sound fleet will be doing business out of this port, instead of sailing as heretofore out of American ports.
"This Is not a. careless prediction but is based upon a prsot ical .knowledge of business, f he number of American boats continues to steadily increase.
"Fishermen who have been accustomed to come here, since Order of Council went into effect, say that it will not be long before the men will be joined by their families. I’sny -of the men are home owners and it is only because they cannot sell out Immediately to advantage that t hey still stay in the south.-5
And fan extract from the Forty-ninth annual report of the Fisheries Branch of the Department of the Kaval service, stating:
"The main otject for the granting of these concessions v.-a. to 1no: ease fcr-de nt the various ports effected. It w 3 necessary tbst a market should be created for trie quantity of herritg c>ugfct by Canadian operators, and which though too 3,:<all for cur ing urposea were excellent aa bait.”
do that one of the. pur oses also of the Order inCouncil we3 for the selling to American fishermen of the bail- trie re produced, w; ich they were later required to sign the "’Undertaking” feo get.
How, as - o the transfer of registry of vessels:
Because of legislation t bat was before Congress at various
l	imes there is no ioubt tha- many American boat owners did not change their vessels to Canadian registry* A few did; others msde applicet ion. One 1 know wss denied by the United states Shipping Board. fwo vessels were the "3itka* and the ''Sumner*, whioh were purchased by the Canadian Kish end Cold Storage Company, as Mr* Hoberfcs stated. A8 yet 1 know of no way of prohibiting it, even tbough our skipping Board took the stand of otbar companies pure baaing boats in this country and .keeping them nominally under t, be ownership of American oiti sens. But
I	scall introduce at this time as ex&ibit fTIrf the statement of "Cfeange of Registry of American Pishing vessels on the north Pacific from 1913 to Sate,* this being taken from the report of Mr. Chamberlain, of the Department of Commerce, of Washington, D. C.
or,CB v7ABY EEL73KLD:	t ill you f arr: ist us also
the cases of the change of registry of Canadian vessels to American registry?
MB. BBOYsF:	1	will	do	that,	yes sir.
SaCRRRTABY l'.ED?IEL]):	fie	will	receive this with the
understand!n# /*o will not use it unless accompanied withthe opposite changes also.
(paper referred to received and filed as an exhibit.)
UE* BK0W1:	I	might	state	that 1 knew of no instance
of a ha1 Hut boat being changed from Canadian to American registry bore in the last three years* There may have been suob a change, but X don’t know of it.
3BCB85!AS Y BrPPIBLX):	We	already have in the record--------
&B. 3^a,r.lr:	Is	that just halibut vessels or ail fish-
ing vessels?
MB. BBOM:	That	includes	all.
oaC.aRR'HT K-J>?1KLD:	We	already have in the record
very transfer of Canadian to American registry and the use of the vessel.
i-R. BHORa*:	T hen 1 snail introduce in the record a
letter of the v.. J. Guest Pish company, Ltd., under date of wCtoher 16, 1917, to the jar. Juan Fish Co -any of this oiiy. tho letter is self-explanatory*
nve have your ;&?or of the 18th instant and t f.ank you for same.
As you can readily understand, we have our frash fjsL coming in regularly in Canadian oars.
The 4uty ■.rJ v;:-r tax makes as think that American stock woull he prohibitive. probably In writing your letter you overlooked the f.ot that the Dominion Cov'-rnrcent subsidises local express charges to the
.
is j- discrimination 3gains* tbe carload shipper, but wo have to grin and bear. cornet imes, however, it works in to our advantage when suppli 3 are scarce and carloads are not available."
Of course, va.en carloads are not available American housescould not. srip in to O&n&da.
CHI .? JV ICE MA£M?£:	it is already staged bare the
Canadian government paid nothing for the shipment of h&l ibut,
MB. BBOwH:	I	think	bis	letter	states that, yes.
Dli. CM IT B:	Is this stat etaen t c orre o t ?
ME* BHQ&T:	I think it is correct.
MK. iTITH:	Tbat	the	Dominion	Government subsidises
local ex re •• 2barges to the extent of one*t bird?
KM. PBMRT:	Canadian	fish, yes. They did at; tbat time.
ME. ?01 JBl:	That is partially 0orroot,
PH. SI'.ITE :	This	letter is dated October loth, 1916 ,
MB* FOlHaD:	At that time, yes. A number of pears ago,
with s vieiR to advertising and spreading the demand for fresh
fisb in the interior portions of the country tbe Department
undertook the payment of one-third of the express charges
on L.C.L. shipments from the Atlantic Coast to points as f r west as the western boundary of Manitoba and points
as f' r on the racific Coast as to Manitoba, inclusive------------not
on ot rload shipments. The idea being to try to build up the
demand to the time y.hen it would be feasible for shippers
to -Jhip in o*:rlo^.d lots. At that time the I,. S. I. rates
being nigh, the prices would be too grest. But any fish
that *ere shipped from sucb .points, reaardle ?s of where the
origin would be, that were shipped by a Canadian company,
or home company, to these people in the interior of the
country, would at that ticse be suhj . ct to the one-third re-
Q ds
bate if they were. 1.0.1. shipments. I.e.I. shipments, however, that mere one-1bird off were not as low as the carload lot rates. That was subsequently, as the demand for halibut and salmon sufficiently increased, that was modified by withdrawing all assistance on halibut and salmon end paying a greater amount on the transports* ion.
BE. 3mTit:	Let me inquire, Mr. Found, at this point
whether this rebate of one-third on L.C.L. shipments applied to .any fish going into the United States?
me/ FOUlaD:	Ho.	It was for shipments from the Coast
to the interior either way. But it applied to any fish t t;at we sl ipped from t uese places regardless of their origin. M2i. hU3BI*.3:	Merely	a	dosest ic policy for the building
up of a demand -----
'•M. 9 0U ID:	lie re 1$ a way of advertising fresh fish
on the public market, It ;■ ight be very well to explain there that the bigger companies in the Central West did somewhat object to it when the demand began to be large, because it made it easier for smaller dealers who were coming into the field to pet shipments better, as they were getting thorn in at a small ar.ount more than the big dealers who were shipping in oarload lots.
MM. BEOuTT:	As showing also, Mr. Secretary end gentlemen
of the commission, the view arid interpretation that was broadly made on the Order in Council, at the same time the effect of the fcA iting requirement, 1 *ish to read into the record a
ir
*R <Jletter under date of April 13, 1917, from Martin Johnson,
wbo was t^en manager and was captain Gibson’s immediate pre • ecessor as manager of the Fishing Vessel Owners Associa-t ion.
"During tbe months of ;tovember and December,
1916,	• he American -or -oner 'Lalols,* William Earley, Captain, and the American schooner 'Kodiak,', Q.
Larson, Captain, were fishing for halibut on the high seas on the Vi'©st Coast of Vancouver Island* Before going to the fishing, banks they had purchased bait at a Canadian port# and were compelled to sign an undertaking requiring that; t hey return with their fish to the Canadian port* At this time of t fee y ar when there are high southeast winds, it makes, it impossible ana extremely dangerous for craft of this else to run upon the open ocean from the West Coast of Vancouver Island across Queen Charlotte Bound to Prince Kuperfc. Accordingly the 'Kodiak' went southward down to the Straits of Juan de Fuca and over to Vancouver on the Canadian side, where they were compelled to Bell their fish below the market price at Seattle^ which was really nearer the fishing grounds, and the fishermen lost between four and five hundred dollars on tbo trip. The 'Malola’ brought her fish to ioat tie, getting the regular market price for the same, and as a result is blacklisted in Canada and is not allowed to purchase bait or ice there. In other words, they black.-lis*. American fishing vessels for doing in snadi&n waters what Canadian vessels do in American waters without any restrictions- In February, 1916, I was in Sout heastern Alaska aiih jay owi schooner 1 Panama* end along side of coe in American waters were five Can>- d isr. fish ing vessels get % i ng t be i r ba it wi t bout any restrictions whstsoever. During other times of the year, l hat is, dur ing the mcnth of December, and cart*; in periods in the summer time, the Canadian fishinp. vessels ?o int.. o Maakan waters on the American sir^e to get their bait, as ve have no restriction against it. nowev r, when an American fisherman nants tfit in Ganadian a; sers he must bargain away his catoh, and this instance is cited to show you one of the many ways that it v.orks to the detriment of American fishing vessels. As Canadian fishermen and fish houses aake a big pr fit on handling this boat§ the only reason for putting into force such bait regulations is to force the American vessels into Can-;d isn registry, as in Canada they would be entitled to get bait without restriction from ei t her count ry."2
’pea tile, wash. , April 11, 191?.
Lr. H. K. Smith,
0	o mm i a e i ) me r o i i s he r i a s,
f&S'ingten. la 0.
leer di r:
>U a meet imp, of the fishing Vessel owners Association Lola -..his week, n wss decided thet our Association go on record formally indorsing t be oasss^e of a hill providing
*rhat no fresh or frozen fish from the forth aeific coast, or ita tributary wa. i e r s, he e a m i 11 e d i n fc o t h e On its d
K&h Si-A ,	1.0	A	...	Ui	t	V	CU	Aii	TiU	ti«5 UJI .1 W
C ta tes t hrougr: f sy f ore isn coun%ry ax-oeot t fe e s- r e he In r. o n d f r o m an # me r *
4 R	*
iosn port
The Indeoenranti Vessel ^■ rs Association comprises ip its member;? hij; prsot icaily all of the American of I. shore halibut fleet or* the yorth Pacific. By independent, we mean hosts not* owned or operated hy the fish companies. -lost of these hosts are oared hy captains and fishermen themselves.
«e feel t hat t his law is necessary if the United States is to preserve its par if is Coast fisheries as an American inst ituUon, *nd nr« ' nta in that this c unt ry has a right to say how fish caught in American fishing vessels and consumed ty tfce American people shall he regulated. We feel that t {.is hill will req.irs tea Canadian concerns to do their American luainea ; on the American aide of the line, and that they w ill n o t be ah 1 e to ha mp. ; r t he devel . p me n fc of t h a Ame r i e an fisher lea hy trair orders and council -.uai trade regal at ions anl o:. her restrict ions. Their treatment of American fishermen hss been decidedly unfair an7 for the purpose of forcing American vessels into Canadian registry* pe feel that as s purely American institution v.e * r entitled to the same protection fro;:; foreign sub idies, rebates, etc. that the American Coastwise ahiepinr trede i
Ioui9 very sInc erelyf
;dgd} a. Johnson,
Manager uMshinp Vessels OwnersCEI&P JU3TICK hACKM:	Mr.	Brown,	uoesrM t it seem to
you tha yon are overlooking tho fact that American vessels bad no right to a erne into Canadian ports to buy bait except under the tr r ty of 1818. assd if t hay wanted permission to buy bait wasn’t it perfectly fair and proper the Canadian Government should say *Yes. you have no right to do it, but we will let you do it, you giving quid pro quo?*'1 And doesn't it further ahow the desirability of this Commission coming to some understanding that will be approved or that will make It possible for t fee so differences to not exi3t in tbe future. these things are really among the reasons why this Commission waa appointed, eo these differences might be settled on a permanent basis.
SMCxaiR/BT BaJFIRLI):	And	furthermore,	is	it	fair,
tnd is it playing the game, when it is pointed out before dinner plainly that the united states Government had eaeressljr, b;v its signature, approved the condition by treaty under wr.iou this vessel bad no rights in the Canadian
ports, except by their ocurtesy---------is it playing the game
to re a that * 3 if a ican were in some way injured, when, as e setter of fact, be was given the privilege, to which re had no lawful right, which his own Government had agreed he had no right to, and growls because he sets fcore than he ws a ent it 1 ed to? : hat i 3 a 11 t h ere i a of t ha t, :' r. B r own •
1	'21. BHOWN:	A nswe r i ne t he Chief Justice's que s t i on
first, 1 r. ceeretary, I do not contend for s moment but whaC&nada had a perfect right, if she so a hose, to put on the baiting restriction, as to American vessels only having the right, under the treaty of 1618, to get wood, water, supplies ar.d aecessary repairs. 1 was wondering what right Canadian vessels hsd in American waters?
OH I - J? JURTICE h AS a N:	1 don't kr: o w. Only v ha t wa s i n
the treaty.
IIS * SHOW!?:	Then we went one step further, because we
?vere allowing them, it appears, contrary to praet ioet to let the Canadian boats come into our waters and, without restrictions, get tail;,
BECalRIAKY EKDFI'hLX'i Trial; is a matter of law. we have agree.a, and 1 have not pet found any gentleman here recognising that may he broken, ana we are growling here because we got something bet.ter tban our V: r-’.ain, but .not a8 :v.uoh as we wanted. no doubt that is exaot, plain truth, we made a bargain end signed it and agreed to something definite, and out of consideration Canada g£-vr. us more than we Rad a right to pet. That is the fact. It can't be questioned. Ifow, is it square to srowl because, petting more than we were entitled to, we at ill didn’t get f-s much as ae wanted?
That is the truth, when it is put squarely. Fow, it doesn't bear upon this quest ion at all to say t bat Canada pot more in our v.aters at that time than she gave to us. ive had agreed to that. ve had put our signature to it. Are we or are we not going to st?nd squarely by the faith of the nation pledgedtoe treaty, or do w© growl because, usving ourselves at the instance of tbe Representat ives of the State of Washington rejected a treaty since which would have prevented all this, we still, though getting more than we agreed to get, growl because we on't get still mors?
MB. EKGWF:	I don’t interpret that, Mr. Secretary, in
the nature of a growl, for this reason:	-	—
3ECKETMBY HMDF2KM C:	It has no basis else.
KB* H01F:	Canadian boats, at the same time that
American boats were get* ing bait in their waters, were coming here and getting it without restriction.
SKOMiCABY MMaPiMLD:	Veil, ne had agreed to that.
MB. BB WF:	11 would appear on the Hew England coast
Canadian vessels bad no rip.tu to go into American ports there and set bait.
Gill?vP JUMR X CM • i AjSM Ri:	0h ye a, . / a nad lan v ssels have been
buying bait in A me r i ca n p o r t s.
SMC M AKY n'EDMl-Lj:	What were t be treaty rights? You
must be guided by local feeling in t Ris m&t ter. What w&s tfe e law? ,Mr_ai had we agreed to do? ihat bad we signed to in contract?
Chi. f JU.JMTCK hAZ T :	It was shippedout of the United
Slates ports. 1 wa3incorrect in that.
la. CT.AMR:	It is my understand ing there is no fishing
tr aty nr the >aclf ic Coast. £h© treaty of 1811 waa treaty covering the right3 %c- had possessed from right ofoccupation.
CHIEF JUSTICE mZWi Ur. Clark, our Department of Justice have giventhe opinion that tbe treaty of 1818 appi 1 oa to all tba mmtera inforth Arnerica, to I he AtIant ic as well as SO the Paoifio. It say a so in specific terms.
It applies to all the possessions of its Britannia Majesty in fforth jg&erloft.
IB. 01A8X:	Would	you underst sna that fee apply to
possessions which were later acquired, or only those that an teds, t e € t he t r e atyf
CH. I if JUST I OB KASBI:	All these treaties apply to
the Britannic possessions of that treaty.
ME. OMBXm Then it would appear that the interpretation of the rights which were agree! to under that treaty b^d been different: sn the American, side than they had been on the Canadian?
OMJK-F JURT 101 BAXBT ; Hr. Clark, as I understand the treaty of 1818, it deals with fc.be rights of united states citizens in the territorial waters and harbors of Canada*
If 1 recollect, it, it isn't reciprocal; it deals with the rights of the ©itisans of the United 3tates# rights in the waters of Canada. gy recollection is that it does cot refer to what rights the? aitissns of Canada have in the Miters of the United States.
MB* OIABK:	3	think	that is correct, except it deals
with the rights waioh American fishing vessels bad in milBritish waters, including t hose of Newfoundland.
CHIlf JUSTICE WMW'i In'Iorth America*
HE* CM1.M:	In ITcrth America.
CHIEF JUSTICE iHH:	I would like to say just one
word to oaut ion. You mustn't confuse in this discussion Canada. Canada has nothing wbnitver to say in regard to the legislation of Newfoundland or with regard to the control of affairs of Newfoundland.	They are two absolutely
separate and distinct countries, both being subject to Imglmnd.
JUDGE §TJ--X SOI!:	fhat treaty of 1816 applied to them allf
CE2MP JUSTICE BMM:	It s. plied, to all British
possessions in Worth America.
Iffi. BBOWlM 1 stated, Mr. secretary, and the Chief Just ice Inter s tat ted, Canadian vessels have no greater treaty rights • to come into our ports to get bait than we have to go into thiir ports.
mmmim mm mm t	i atm't know ^bout that..
HB. F0TJKD:	It would be a umlttr of United gt&tes law.
MB- BROWH:	It depends on whether we would permit them
to come into our ports. As the Interpretation of th# customs, we allowed them to come in here «nf get be it. And I might say, it was good business on our part.
BEOBMAMf WMWX&Wi But there was no compli, int bccause we Rid no t.
RHXMP JUSflQK RA2S1:	If it wasn't good bus! ness on
your part I don't suppose you would permit It.ME. BROWS?:	I don't know about that, Mr. Secretary.
SHOB^RMiBY BBBFXEIM:	Because	we	had	agreed	to a
bargain wbicb gave us no right to bait, we bed agreed and signed and pledged ourselves to the ripfat nr. a accepted the right to wood, water, repairs and shelter. I bat is ell w© bad and all we could claim. There wasn't any obligation of tbs faintest nature.
CSlftf JUSTICE EAZEK:	lorn	wore	sis#	get	ling certain
tigbts in fIshing around iRagdalei: 1 aland.
IS. EBSWH:	Tbat is not tajcing bait.
mmmABY KDFISLBs It didn't ap^ly to this coast at all. How, anything more i'mn that imc of courtesy, not of right, low, that's plain. Anything more than that was of courtesy, not of right. And through oourtcsy we were given gradually more and more and more. Probably was good business to do it. Bub lhe re is no basis for complaint because out of courtesy we received more than we were: entitled to and, therefore, to growl because we didn’t get more.
MB. BBOfff:	Hr.	Secretary,	you	mis	interpret	that	as	a
growl.
Bmmmmi	fell,	it	takes	that	form.
ME. BHOlIf:	As	X	staled before I read the letter, the
purpose was to ©how the handicap under which American fishing loa%B were flabing at that time, ©nd the fact that Canada, as a matter of treaty right f wasn't repmired to give usbait. That at the same time we were giving her bait without restrict ion and American boats were oper&t Ing under the restriction 1 have pointed out* fo get out from under restriction would be to cha.ng# fron Am rican to Candaian repistry.
SKCHBfAEY EBBFIEL]):	I think your language will show
you quoted this as evidences of restrict ions put aeon us by Canada* They are not* They are evidences of enlargements given to us by Canada.
ME. BBDIH; I believe,	Mr,	Secretary,	as	1 intended	it,
I stated that the object of	the	letter was	to	show the
disadvantage a under whioh American boats were to operate.
CHIBF JO ST I OB IIASEW:	1% seems So me that till this
discussion is an intensely	strong argument	in	favor of	a
settlement of these %i ing©	n a	proper basis.
IB- BBOlf:	X	do, too, Mr. thief Just ice.
CHIEF JUSTICE S11I.H:	A very strong argument in favor
of a settlement of these things on as proper basis,
ME. BHOU:	And	what	l	expect	t-o	lead	up	to	in making
my closing points in presenting our case*
1	wish to introduce Into the record a table showing the landings ox the offshore floet at Brine© Hupert during t year 1917, and showing the purchases mads by the various companies there, which shows the amount of halibut bandied by the various companies, Can&d ian and American companies: The Canadian Fish .\nd Cold storage Company handling approxi-mately 11,000,000 pounds; the Atlin Fish Oomtseajr handling 2,OCR,000 pounds; the Booth Fisheries company handling B,00G,000 pounds. This table will stow that American concerns must be operating at some disadvantage at the port of Prince Hupert at this time. the concerns from the American side are as large companies, have the same financial ability to develop their business as the Canadian compa&y has, and the busInoss Ihere, as is shown by the table, is practically controlled by the Canadian fish and Dole storage Company.
AM to that, as a matter of their building up the business, we don't complain of that, we are not growlingabout that at all, excepting' to show, as I will later point out, the result of oond.it ions under which they are f.oing business in tNat pert.
(Table referred to received and filed as an exhibit.)
1	wish to Introduce into the record at this .time an extract from the report of 1. tester Jones, Deputy aommigaioner of Fisheries in 1914.	1 do not think it is worth while to
reed this over at this time, excepting to stale that it was there pointed out the danger that develO: ing conditions — that condit ions might bring about to American fishing on the north Pacific.
(E$f>$rt referred £o received and filed as an exhibit.}
OfilaF J03JXOS MA31I:	Mr.	Jonea, the Deputy Commissionerof the at ate of wash in gt on?
MR. BBQfF:	10, he was Deputy Commissioner of fisheries
amd now head of the United States Qo&at ceodet ic survey.
I. will read just a portion of this.
he re i s an o t he r vital me. 11 er for Al a ska * s consiaeration regarding the protection of certain features of her fishing induetry. Seattle is at present the fishing center of the pacific Coast, but is being hard pressed to hold this place, as Prince Bupert , British Columbia, only 90 miles from Eetchikan, end. a terminus of the crand Trunk Pacific Bail road, bids fair to become a formidable rival for the Alaska trade. f; he fulfillment of such
a prophecy is not far off.n--------this, gentlemen, was
before American boats started into Prince Super! with
their catches------tfJn fact, it is close ai hand, and
unless somet hin.^ is done in the way of correcting certain conditions relative to the handling of salmon, halibut, and other fishes after they are caught there will bo serious loss in business and trade between Alaska and the states. X mean by this that the American boats* their fishermen, their base of any lies,, and the shipping and receiving point for most of their fish will be in foreign waters Instead of within our own boundaries.51
After an interim the report continues:
*Tbe railroads can help largely to overcome the first problem by offering terminal rat©0a to the people who are ship; ing from Alaska.
This applies especially to shipments from southeastern Alaska, Unless this is done, t bey cannot expect to compete with tbe Grand Trunk pacific, or in fact with any of the other Canadian railroads, fhe present situation and what it is leading to is deplorable and should be dealt with promptly and with the seriousness it deserves. i? (Report referred to received and filed
as an ex bib it.) fhe Governor of Alaska, in bis 1916 report# also calls
attention to the serious condition from the American standpoint oi the halibut industry. Eis reportt in part, is as Roliows, although ■*> wish to have the whole report intro-duced into the record*.
*'The result has haox: that a good share of the business enjoyed previously by Alaska fcss gone to Prince Tmpert and unless effective legislative action is tajser* By Congress at an early date to improve the situation, Alaska will suffer a sever© loss of trade**
(Seport referred to received and filed as an exhibit.)
On March 2nd, 1917# the American United States shipping Beard adopted a similar regulation that had teen put into force in Canada, refusing to allow change® of vessels from our registering* 1 will introduce at this time a copy of this order* ft is order was made on Harsh End, J.917, end j introduce this to show one of the necessities of being ahle to control our own fishing fleets from our on ports where possible.
•'In April, 1917* which was over a month later than that order —* 1?tfce Canadian Pish and cold Storage Company purchased the American fishing schooner '3ip■ ka* from Capt. J. Johnson- The Sitka is a vessel of 50 net tons, carries sii dories, and hss a capacity of 9Q,Q00 pounds, in June, 1917 # that Company also purchased the schooner 'Sumner1, M* Eolie, captain.
The sumner is of 54 net tons, four dories, and a capacity of 60,00 3 pounds* Both of these vessels are registered* under the ra-me of Charles ۥ Bohfcinoof Chisago, fhe general sales manager of that Comps-n: in the United states.*
"without question, these vessels are hel.l in Bobbins name uni 11 such ti c-; as tbey car he legally
J.9 tbs .Oamaaiac Ash r_a 0 la storage
wO«jpan^. %o six indents and purposes, these vessels are now Canadian. They operate out of "j rinse Htrcert exclusively for t h~ Canadian Fish and Cold Storage OompaW, which handled all of teir catch. Theiracaptain and crews* * work directly for that company* In January of ttsi* year Mien the writer was in frince Rupert loth vessels were tied up at company's dock undergoing general repairs.
As i part of the American fishing fleet, they have teenlost to our food producing resources, and are now in substance Canadian vessels.M
(Order referred to received &nd filed as an exhibit*1
As also emphasizing the necessity of controlling# as
far ss possible, our own fishing industry I wish to bring befor© t be 0ommisaion the sot ion th?.t wes taken in this
country in regulating the price of halibut*
On February 25, 1918, there met at Ce&ttle the Fresh Fish Commit tee of the food Adminletrat ion for the inset Sound District. She meeting was presided over by Mr*
Charles Eebberd, Federal Food Administrator for Washington. Mbere were present Mr. A. G. Bunn, Chai rts&n of the Halibut and fresh fish Committee for the Food Administration for this district, and representat Ives of all branches of the industry, including Fishing Teasel Owners8 fishermen and dealers from both the united states mnR Canada.
As the result of this conference prices were agreed upon to be reasonable prices to be charged to the American
people for these food fishes. Halibut, 16 cents pound,
plus rata * s&bla fish, 8 cents ; 1ing cod. red snapger and
gray cod, 6 cents per pound.
ihile, of course, the representat ives front Canadian
houses at that seeking could not speak for fcbeir Government
in the matter, and it being almost; a matter of necessity
to establish uniform prices in both countries to maite themeffective, when the products of both countries are landed at their ports and -sold in their countries, they could not adopt a system th&t would be effectIve.
A m#eting was held In Chicago recently at which, as 1 understand it, t .e proper officers from the Oanadian government were present, and, after some discussion, the Canadian operators, not desiring to be bound by the prices, it was found that we cauld not repalate the prices of these fish st all.
How, during, the month of Sarah, walls tbe order was in effect in this country, American buyers could not pay over
14	l/s cents a pounds, or 15 cents a pound, for halibut.
As web stated by Mr. Calvert at theprior meeting here, they have to |aave a margin of about a cent and a, half a round to operate an. During that month American fish sold in prince Super! as high as 16 cents on March 1st, 15 1$Z on March 3rd,
16 l/e or. March 4th, 16 f>/8 on March 8th, 16 1/6 on March 9th, and so on timing the month* .the price very seldom getting below 16 cents ana going as high as if cents, so that the result was this, that , whereas, the Food Administration so afctemt ing to regulating the prices so our people could get cheap halibut, th&fc the fishermen went to the other side with the halibut and sold them at a higher price, and it drove the trade from oar port,and going in there was not subject to control, so we accomplished, nothing, by it whatsoever except-ing of the driving of them from our own ports.SStRlfAET BEDFIELM:	These	were	American fishermen sold
it?
MTU BBOW.I:	Tes sir,
HE* ¥0MB;	Wasn’t that matter Rully gone into at
Prince Ktiperi and explained that the fish are bought ir -rinoe Kupert on a different basis than they are here| that is, so much, say, for one variety, and so mush for t be other, and might b e considerable for one kind and considerably less for snot her, and yet tee average be not greater than the amount specified, and that no aore shan the amount specified was paid?
ME . BROW I:	I e 1 -, t ha % s t a t e m e nt ws. s made, Hr. f ourid,
but 1 really don't believe it was exact, en.fi. that is why 1 introduced the pri es at this time.
SECRETARY REDFIELD: Wasn't the statement also made in &et chile* n by the men who sold these goods that they did
so and got raera money for t heir goods and brought it back
ana spent it in Metchlkan?
MR. BROWN:	I don’t doubt they got more money for fc to
goods, but unless these fish are coming into our own. ports we lope the control of them,
SECRETARY REDFIELD; How would you ater control the fish supply of another m fe 1 onf How would you propose it; by what method would you do ifef
MB. BROWN: I wouldn*t propose , lir. ^secretary* to control the fish sup* iy of another nation.SECRETARY REDFIELD: Would you propose to make an attempt,
ty some sort of legislation, to monopolise the catch of the
Pacific Coast?
MR. BROWN:	Ohs	no,
SECRETARY REDFIELD: Then how can you control their supply
MK* BROWN:	we can't control their supply,
SECRETARY REDFIELDi If you can't control their supply how can you help their selllag in our market as they see fit? Are not Mexican fishermen doing the same thing, or fishermen from any other country?
MR. BROWN: I would simply limit them to the same scale of prices we limit our men to.
SECRETARY REDFIELD: You can't do that. I've never heard of such a thing.
MB. BSOWH:	Then it renders uaeleas an attempt upon our
part to limit the price upon our own fish, and it seems as though in a oase of this kind —-
SECRETARY REDFIELD: So long as there is a competing market
hit* BROWN: (Continueing ) —- to establish that, that
other people doing business in our markets with our fish should he hound, anti should he willing to be bound, to the
same terms we are.
SECRETARY REDFIELD; If they choose to. 
MR. BROWN: If they don't choose to then we have lostthat muob control over our industry.
ME* D33BABA58:	It	is the sale of fish that waa so
strictly governed by the rules laid down by the Food Administration. p^o&ubb they would mot be allowed to uowe into the United states at the- higher figure an advance mas authorised by the Fo -d Controller, because it sold at the higher corresponding prices in the markets of Chicago*
And the claim was made there, the same as was made in -rinse Bupert, exactly on tbs same conditions; that is, the sale of American fish* And the Canadian fishermen claimed they were getting rather less than the American.
MB. BB01I:	f here was a period for about a month the
Canadian fishermen did get less, but it* was an exception to the general rule of prices in frince Bupert, which will be shown by statist lea from the time the American fishing boats started in there to date, f hat will appear all the way through the atat 1st las.
The reeson the oam&d Urn boats were not getting as much during that month mm® simply because the American pood Con* roller ordered that American concerns bid on first and second fish differently. they bid on first fish, they bid on second fiah, whereas, the Canadian .fishermen aid not follow that on their own boats.
KB* BK3BArats; As far as the American fish was concerned* the claim at trine© Bupert was they were sold eiactly under the sarae conditions as laid down by the American Food '©Rtroller.UK. BKOfJ?:	Tfeey	bid	on	first	end	second	fish,	the
game a a our concerns	did	fcber- *
M* BESBAHAf'S:	And	under t he	satoe	limitation?
HR. BEGfW:	Igs. The result of the whole attempt to
control the price, fcr. searetara, %aa that it ties fin-lly given up, and there is no control on it at m11 at t?. is time*
3fAT!«T BY Ml. EOTA1* A. 00831 SOB,
ATTOHHET AND f&SKBAZ. FOOD ABMIFX AT OS* ALASKA*
MH. Q-UIfTTlSOlf:	May	1	suggest,	Mr.	Secretary	,	1	am	informed, through the food	Administrator,	tie	reason he
at t emp t e a t o c on trol	the	prices of	f 1 s h	ms	the dec la rat i on
on the part of the Canadian Food Controller to attempt to ssa5 nt-a in t hose prices*
Without interrupting }|r. Brown .further, 1 would like later in the da^ , or during the session, to make a statement with reference to these .utters as I understand them fro® the point of view of the food Adminiatrat Ion.
HE. £&A2$C:	May	X	ask	this	question	right	at	tLis point
so as to clear one item?
Judge Gunnison, was it jour understanding that the prices that were to be paid, or the wholesale prices that wer*A to govern .on the Oo&sfc for this fish was to be unde* the control of the Food Admin1strat ion and were to apply in the ,^astem markets of the United states plus the freight rates nd pius t he raa&onable commission?
jusJUDGE GuFMISOK:	My	understanding was, the agreement
between the fish buyers m d the Food Controller -m® t teat a reasonable max imxxm price was 16 certs per pound for a rime halibut, that seconds were fc o be bid upon openly, and that instead of a fixed price for "unders” and f7oversn , that they were to be bid for* fbat that prioe was to be reflected back into Rrirca Buperfc fend into Ketchisan msakets, an# the-basis of the 16 cents was made up on the basis of a reasonable profit of 5 cents plus the freight charges end
handling charges, which amounted to about Z cent a, which
t he
would reflect the price baok into/Alaskan market of 11 cents. Was t hat correct, Mr, Maddockf
MB. HADDOCK:	fhat is correct.
JUDGE SUHFItSCJf:	And that consequently the price out of
Prince Eupert-----and the market at rrinoe Hupert could conform to that ----- reasonably ought not to exceed a half a
cent a pound over t he American market of the 11 cent s. And there were weeks in Alaska when no halibut was bought for more than II cents, while there i&ere free? ent instances of
American vessels moving on to prince Supert and selling -----------
this is not of my own knowledge, but information which was given to me by fishermen and fish buyers $nd wfciob came in
t hat way, second and tbird-handed-------American vessels entered
the market at Prince Eupert and sold their fish for 13, 14 and
15	cents, while the price for fresh halibut in the A&erloan markets, in the Ale-aka market, was li cents.SBC. .irr.MhY K^DFIBLX):	Judge Gunnison, wt.-.st are you arguing
from? Isn't it, of course, the fact that an independent nation has the right to control its own food supply if It sees fit?
jum& mmiuon:	Yen, Mr. georetftry.
SMjMI'BI KEPFIBRRU We sought to control ouraf
jur*as cram so* s tes, sir.
3&C&3SABY REilFlBLI):	And on your statement they didn’t
agree, hut preferred to leave the market wide open?
JUDSK fOTIlSQI:	Tes sir.
BMmtkm mmmw:	Wow,	what	do	you infer from that
in the way of anything which eomes within the scope of this Com is si on?
JUDGE OOTFISOH:	1	don't like to interpret Hr* Brown's
argument.
aRGRSTAHT BSBflEM:	that is ell right^ the subject is up.
JUDOS CRflEflSQH:	1	want to preface what 1 say by this
expl&nat ion, that I am not tore critically* 1 a . not here complaining. 1 see a condition which confronts us in Alaska and is more vital to us in Alaska as a business consideration than any other place ontfeis oo&^t. i% is equally true of the situation at Pr ince Bupert, because what is vital to us is
vital to them. It is a fact-----------that, goes without a possibility
of a contradict ion------that if the fish business and American
fishing fleet of Alaska is induced to go to the Canadian port, and %m American laws do not maintain the fisheries for the112
American people, that the progress and development of the territory of Alaska will be set back. I wouldn't like to sap how many years. How, Just what the remedy for that is. Hr. Secretary, 1 am not here to contend for
SSOSlfARI EEBFXELI):	Would	you advocate, for example,
suspend ing the operation of the Grand f runic pacific B& llroadf
JUDGE §0111301:	I	certainly	would	not, because 1 3on' i
of ours
see it is any particular affair/whether the Grand Trunk Pacific Bailroad operates or not. The only reason the oaranl rrack paoific Railroad operates is because it has prospective business. How, if you wltt permit me one word further.
fhe reason for my presence here on up; feet is a remark wbich the §@oretsry m.ie during the getoaik&n aearing, end which 1 have been thinking about ever since, and I ask that I may understand what was meant.
Yon said that you contended for a continental policy.
If by that it is intended or contended that there should be no restriction between our countries as to tfea fishing industry, then 3 am frank to say that 1 believe the fu» ture development of Alaska end its orogre is, which 2 believe to be based primarily upon the fishing industry of that territory, will be staggered, if not absolutely wipe# out, bectui.se with the commercial situation as it is, with the offer to the American fishermen, or to any .fishermen, t© bring his fish to Prince Bupert at s higher price, as you said this mom ins, and as R concede to bo the fact, is an inducement too strongfor human nature to withstand even where patriot ism would lead the otfear my. >•
aEOHIflHY EBIFX1ID:	Judge	Gunnison, fishermen said,
in i’out presence, at iCetchikac, that eomet imea the • rice was higher in Ketchikan and then :hey sold there, and sometimes the price was higher in Prince Super t and then they sold there. They never said at all for & moment that the price was always higher in rrince Hupert; they said it varied- And they testified, in your hearing, that sosset imea they sold in one and somefc imes t ha other. One of them said about half and half.
JUPGS mminm:	I wasn't present at tbat time.
SEOEE-TAKY RBjMBH):	And Ihey all testified that they
were perfectly contented to stay in the American fisheries, that it »8 an ad vantage to them to have a double market 9 sometimes dependinffwSere they were ftubing. ?hey all testified they had their bosses in or near Ketchiikan and no thought of moving. 7be bank cashier testified they hod incresaed their deposits in Ketchikan daring these two years. There wasn't a single xs3L$ word said in t be way of testimony to show the faintest suspicion of a movement away from Ketchikan and to Frinoe Bupert. And if you walked along the water Rront, as 1 did, and took a count of the vessels in the two ports, you found three to four times as many vessels in Mat ci. ik&n as t here were in Prince Bupert, an atmosphere of activity, and I talked with the packers, and they agreed* Them was fear expressed of the future, but when It came -o be analysed on these twofacts, there wasn't a fact left to sustain it.
JOiXk, 0 . SHIfcG* :	Hr, secretary, you are more fortunate
in the expressions which t be fishermen made to you?
CB1K? JUST I OB aASEP:	And every fisherman there stood
up and said they muted t be right to sell their fish in Prince Hupert. there were 49 actual fishermen, there, for I counted them.
JUPGK OUIWISOI:	I have lived in Alaska for the last IB
years, a ml for the last 4 years I have been sore or leas connected with % he fish .inf? industry, |nd there is this fact, that prior to the opening of Prince Hupert and the entry of Prince Rupert into the fishing industry, the f!3hermen received less money for their catch in the port of Seattle than they aid after, as I understand t he fact* up to that* time,
I think-----1 know there have been no fish buyers in the
territory of Alaska, and the movement was an advantage in one respect to the territory, in the6 it did move into the territory fish buyers. But within the last month I have Inom. of ay personal knowledge o:f five vessels moving into the Canadian territory to sail t r*eir fish, and where , i was afterwards told, they received two cents a pound more for their fish.
How, a:; a matter of Inducement to production, the three days difference between the Port of Juneau and t.e port of aetohiksn meant a difference pract loal'ly of a re-load ing of their vessel with cargo, so that in that way I don't know that they really developed very much — that they saved very ©ucfc
O
~ aby t he two oent$. But at the same Mae it d id this, and this is as 1 understand the entire situation. As was Bt. id this morning luring the discussion, the fish follow the feed andtbe American fisherman follows the fish. These charts .Indicate where the fisheries lie. fiany of them lie off shore in internst ional waters, but it is a fact that tb> industry of the territory of .Alaska depends more to-day, the commercial industry, the t Alness of every community along the coast,, depends more upon the delivery of Alaskan fish, or the fish wit bin the protected arm of t he Alaskan Peninsula and in the C-ulf of Alaska at American ports than any otter one thing. It wil .do more to develop the territory
n.
laska t a a n all 1 he mines we have in it*
SKa&KPAH* B&DPIKLB:	Why, if they get lower prices?
JUDOS OUilTIBOH:	Because the men that sell fefetir fish
in Alaskan waters spend their money with American st ores and develop American c o ms jar os?.
8ECKETABT BKDFIBM:	So	the	flshcrson	in Ketchikan
said they did with the money they got in Prince Supert.
JUDGE 0I3RTaI30F:	Mr. Secretary, Zefechiksn Is one of
about five cities, and Ketchikan is more ad van t ageo us ly situated with reference to the business of arlnse Hopert than any other city in the territory. And while it may be true, and I haven't personal knowledge of that, and I am not able to contradict those fishermen, and I wouldn't if I could, since J am not here for criminations or recriminations, or complaints, but 1 am stating to you what I, as a>a
resident of Alaska, believe to be for tla interests of the territory; and I am not doing, it wit'r. an ende ,vor to fcske anything from our brothers across the border. ?hey are entitled to have, and 1 believe that teair astuteness and keenness in b isiness has? been and will be the downfall of the Ocmmercial industry of the territory of Alaska, unless American interests protect it. But 1 do know that the fishing industry at Juneau, at Petersburg* at «rangel, afe Cordova, &t Seward, as it develops will develop the commercial industry there just as it did on the other ooast. If we aren’t able to keep our fisheries at home and protest it against the Inducement, the lure, if you please, of a more advantageous market on the other side in some way, then we on t he American side must suffer.
SEGEK/EY PJSBFalXaI):	fbeit you would protect the fisher-
men egainst getting higher prices for their goods, and would you not, in so doing, give them the .greatest possible inducement to move sway into the market where they can get the higher price?
JJIHla GCKH1S0H:	There	is	a	fallacy in !•hat argument,
if you permit me to say so. RMiere are three people to be considered in the fishing industry, Om Is the fisherman, who runs the hazard of taking the fish? one is the merchant, who supplies him with food and with his gear and equipioent; and. the third, in my opinion, is the .most important# and thatis the Arnerloan publicho eat the fish, 90 per cent of the fish, that are taken in Alaskan waters. low, %'m ideal arrangement is the one that benefits the three, and the minute you out any one of those elements, or one of that trio out, the American interest is injured, and the taking of the American vessel bos Canadian port for *;he delivery of fish at that po!$£ injures the Alaskan merchant, it doesn't benefit the American public .Jr. buying, as has been illustrated by what has been said about the endeavor to regulate the price. The one thought of the food Admin 1st rat ion in ita
%
attempt to regulate the price of fish was to bring fresh fish to a point where it coaid be a substitute for meat, which it was the desire of this country to send to the other side.
0E1MP JU^rlCS EASiSH; 1 ms just saying to t he Chairman
that if your argument was true --------- I am not admitting it
when I say "trw”	you understand the sense of it?
JUDGE OOTWJSff:	Yes.
CHIEF JUSTICE hA&S* I!:	It would simply give enormous
advantages fco the Atlantic villages to go C n&da instead of the united States.
JUMGa 0ir?TI3Ofr:	1	have	no knowledge of the Atlantic
Coast.
OH IE? JUaTICB HA3ES: ‘ I didn’t think so.
- 8ECESITABY HMBflE.LJj:	It is quite a novel argument in
this day to hear that it Is advantageous to the people of
M 91
,,Mu fes? —the country to restrict the markets through which it gats its supply. Most men would argue that the freer the opportunity to get food into- their market the f*,r a ter the advantage Most people would argu 1 that the fishermen, having two markets, was better for the consumers of the united 3tat03; or if it was four markets it wmzli be still better. And you board ihe testimony, which can't be denied, that sometimes prices are higher in one than in the other.
Do you tfa.ink. it, is possible in tfcia day, by law, to shut tbe food supjtly of the people of the united itates out of a market for the advantage of another one?
JUZ&S OOTflSOf:	You	are	not	shutting	off	the	food
supply of the Onited States, Mr. Secretary.
SSdEVJOT mwmwi mt in form., but in substance.
JU3D3S <KrTHI80F:	If	you	permit	my	contradict	ion	---
B&fflmJM SEDF1KMD:	that	is what the law which is
proposed mill do; that is what It-was proposed for * be purpose of doing.
JUB0.& (HflHliOlM DO you mean t be Chamberlain AO It SSGH8TAMI BHDFJEXB:	Yes	*
JuDaS 0!FHF*I3OF:	1	can't agree with you.
SM0HKT-E1 BEI5F1BMB:	Whether you do or not.	It	was
drawn in t ha DtpsrtmenI.
3'UDGM GrUWWl&iMt	1	can * t see any reason why	that	would
in any way decrease	th«	food supply of our country.S10HBT'HI BU5FIB1D:	It	decreases	the	open competitive
markets; it shuts down the fishermen against their will expressed by them, practically reduces t be number of markets in which they can sell,and does that deliberately for the advantage of a Market. low, list might work, if it did, temporarily to the advantage of t featmarket, but it can never be said, 1 venture, that a restriction of competition in food buying or food shipping or food delivery is good for trie average consumer. 1 can conceive of its being very good indeed for the distributing interest a of a certain port only,
I can see t hi % v@ ry e 1 early.
JUDGE GC:THI30f:	But here ar© five or six ports,
mmmmt Well, all of them, fbe testimony shows that the fishermen got a less price before and that the interests of Alaska had to pay them more the moment .Prinoe Supert was opened,
JUDGE 0111X3 0?!; ffeat is true.
SiSCKBTAIfi EKDFIBLB:	Yes.	In	other	words, the buying
inter.sts of Alaska didn't pay t he fishermen of Alaska as much as they now do until rrin e Rupert was opened and competition made it possible. Thai appears to be the fact.
JUDOS GUSOTSGSf:	But	this	is a farther i&et —
CHIKF JUSTICE RAZEB:	The	fishermen in Alaska are better
off and have more sosey in the pavings Bank, according to the testimony they gave us.
JilDdlS &mvi$OT:	You	heard	testimony	only	in	one port.And, as X said to the Commission in sc©to-: iken, this is a territorial proposition, arM /etohi3mn is the roost favorably sitaetod of any Alaskan port,
HW&l SRRif BIBflSIM):	Are	we to understand, then, that
the effect of -rinoe Bupert, if you call it so, is tha advantageous offeat upon the eoonomio oord it ior. of the fishermen of Refecblksn which does riot; exist in other • arte, that tfcair prices have not; advanced slsof
JUDORt Qmmmz	This is a J8ct# Mr, secretary* which
we have all lo..- t sight of in this discussion, that with the depletion of the fisheri s, the aloae inshore fisheries fartfcor down tbs coestt the sumII fisherman moves northward, and it is impossible for the small fisherman, wit h the two ar; d three-manned boat is, to deliver bis fish at the same distance with the larger fishery. And when i-rinoe Bupert opened it was an added inducement to the &tmll fisherman in the close waters in the neighborhood of zetohikan» then, as t be fisherman moved farther north the buyers came into the other ports.with % he res ult that t he 8 ea 11le price wa s refloated into all. of the Alaskan ports,
310— MRi mMeMR^M MID:	And the R-rinoe Kupert price, toa
0\m?l30'%t The Prince Bupert price had the effect for the t iise being asaagalnst the fetchiksn price, but it
didn’t benefit ----- it benefited just one element, one leg
of that triangle, and that was not the fisherman. it didn't assist Amerioaa industry, American commerce, it didn't benefitt he A me r i cs sr, p ub 1 i e one o e n t.
8S0EIO.BX WiU: :	Do	you	mean to argue, then, that
the oreat ion of a railroad which la 500 miles shorter line, cutting out the difference in time traveled, did not affect either the condition of the fish as to quality or quantity, and in no	way was of	benefit to	the	tetri ear. consumers?
JtJDGs	itMFXSOf:	1 mean to	say	that it was in .no way,
as X as informed from my reading and from my conversation with -other people, that it in no way benefited the general aonsum ing pub I1c *
pIOHarABT HKDFISEDs How did they happen to get the sine s a f
JUDGE mmmm:	They got tb business, as 1 say, be-
cause it was a more convenient market for the small fisherman and because they paid a higher prlee for it. But j/ou and i#
who live------when we live in the States, pay a higher prise
for it also as the result.
CHIEF JUBR’lDl EASE!?:	Do I understand you to argue there
is a higher price for fish in Canada than there is in the United States?
J'.JDGB	5-UFJTX30!?:	Ho sir, 1	don't. 1 don't know anything
about the	price of fish in Canada.	Ion mean the wholesale
price or the retail prioe?
CHIEF J035IC1 HAZEF:	I mean the ret&il price.
J;JDG-S GUTHISOH:	I	don’t	know	anything	about	the	retailOHIJp? J0ST XGB KMMf*:	Eit a r pr ice. It tesn't ^ke any
d i ffere no a whlab*
BaOBEfAEY BKJF1KLB:	Don't you	say	that	by	transporting
500 or 600 miles less and arriving	a day	or	two	sooner,
having traveled a less distance, there was less transportation cost and they could, therefore, afford to pay them ©ore without raising the price to fcbe consumer?
WS OUISiSOW:	that	is	quite	obvious.
mOMMim mMXMLB:	isn't that all there is of itf
JOD0E GUSOU:	I	don't think so. I think the whole
thing — - end the obviotis tning. t be re iIroad wouidn' t be pieced there if it weren't for the purpose of drawing oom-jaerce by that way-
3&&P.MABX HHDf 1KLj:	And it wouldn’t draw it unless it
was advantageous to get	it, would	it?
JU$m <3U*mi$08:	If	wouldn’t*
8E08MTAMY MDWTBLj:	Advantageous	t	o	both	interests.
JTJD01 (JUJfiflSQS:	Bat	at	the	same % ime I csn'l, fro® an
American-----I don’t find any fault with the Qanad.isn atti-
tude in that at all. j think that was all right from their point of view,
CHIEF JUSTICE EA2SK:	I think the fish trade had very
little to do with the railroad be ins placed there, j think it was placed there because it wae ant ieip&ted it was the shortest route to the Orient. ThaI would be the shortest open door to % be boats from the Orient inso Canada, /nd in23
addition to that. by building it -.here .it opened up a mm district of country thot was thickly settled, and naturally they would have to have an outlet: on the pacific water*
JUDOB 0OaTtI3O'W:	It was my understand Ing, from
re present at i*@g of the company, that it was intended to aecumulata t he fish ing 1ndust ry.
CHIEF JUSfXCE	Xhat may t.ave been an element,
but it wasn’t by any means the main element.
JCDC-K GHIJ&USOtf:	And -St the sa ae % ime t fc# com.pet it ive
price of transportation med© it at tract ice to the man who wanted to ship bis goods mt a lower aria#, but at the expense of toerlean iransportat ion lines, both steamship ant railroad.
1 don* t complain of that; I think that it wus good business* but 1 wonder where the American business gets off and where the territory of Alas^s is to land?
SEC RECAST BBHflJSM; The people of t be territory of Alaska get higher prices for their products, they so testified, and they desire that they take it where they want without exception. And, on the other hand, there is no proof offared that the American consumer pays one cent more for his goods.
JUPCE CKn*5ISG£; I % feint, Hr. Secretary, as I said, you beard the voice of a very few of the f is ter men.
iSKQBaRMIDt Ra^IIill:	They	spoke through the representatives
of their organig&ti or; officials.
JETD01 GUBBi^aW:	fell,	that	organisation	doean* t cover
all of them by ?•; good deal.mmmm mhsr*mm by mb. emu? j. biom.
MB. BHOIH:	1 wish to clear up a little bit on certain
matters that rave been tcached upon, 14r. deceetary* in Ju'-ge Sunnison's talk*
How, the quest ion has been brought up of the fisherman's vote t here in getohilcan. Judge Sunnison is right when fee says t mt is not the sent iisent of the major .tty of %h fishermen. I have interviewed the fishermen from Seattle to Juneau, fbe £1 a he risen who were got together that day by gentlemen who led them up there with a braaa band,— there wasn’t even one dissent 5ng vote. fhe majority of those fishermen were not halibut fishermen, they were salmon fisherman. lo fresh salsian is 3old from our boats into the Canadian mr.Tkzis*
As to toe money made by fishermen in Southeastern Alaska in
tbs halibut business belm more than before Prince insert
ooffimod i ties
was opened, you must remember that	have f?one ap s nd
those plaoes an Puget Sound ham made just as much on a corresponding scale as American end Alaskan halibut fishermen h*ve made, ani they have made it in the Alaskan industry, in the internalw&ters In Alaska. The raise in the price of fish has not been portionately larger than the ml## .in certain other oomifiOdities.
Ana another thing:	The price of halibut a a between
an il&sk&n £orfc and tie port of Prince Eupert will usually be determined in I his way. It will cost a liahermar; fishingoff those banks so much money to run fv<m those banka down to Prince Hup rt, and whenever he can get more for Ms fish than whfct be can get in Alaska, plus the cost of transportation, be is going to go to Prince Bupert. flow, if under regulations wbioh can bring all of trie buyers to an Ales&an p-art, including the Canadian buyers, the Alaskan fisherman In Alaska would be just as well f ised as ho is with the port of Rrince Huperfc open now. 1 haven’t my files present shewing more fis barmen present than at tbat meeting, but it would show that any action which would concentrate all the buyers afc one piaoe would work out, and work out to the betierment of the fisherman* If be had the Canadian and Arneri.can buyers astab 1 isbed at a n A1 askan port, which is near the fishing grounds, he would be that rmeb better off.
It is good American business if we can establish that business in American port *
mmmim	1	don't	thint so, Mr. Browi.
MB* BBOWKt Well, I think so, Hr- Secretary.
SECHIfAB!" BSDFIBLD:	Pardon me till 1 finish my sentence.
1 don't think it is good jmeriasn b isiness to attest to override economic law by legislat i ,n, and if it ever succeeds in the world, and that if the deliberate purpose is to gain an economic advantage by statute, that it would have to be tone at the expense of the American people. 1 can1t set that,
Mr. Brown. IIor do 1 believe you would find any advocates of such a measure outside of localities which are more or leesobsessed by the changed economic conditions arising from She constructIon of the railroad*
MR. B BOW If:	I believe this, Mr. secretary. I believe
that fish can be handled cheaper ana in as good, if not a better condition, by taking them from any Southeastern Alaskan port arid taking thorn by hoafe ferry to Bupert snd bringing the® on that railroad into the United 3tat©s. low, if Canada is going to offer to us a better syatess of transportation, a cheaper system of transporfe&t:on, a a;stem which rcdght bring fish in in better send it ion, as has been contended her®, i would say very well, we. will mabe such as© of it as we can, but if we can have them come to our ports and get our fish here, why should we go over out of our way to deliver thea to them?
-
SlOKISf&KY KEOT1KID:	In	other words-------let me ask you
j
if you won’t change a word there. If we can force them to our port?
ME. BBOWH:	Well, we might as well talk frankly on the
meatier. It is forae one way or force the other way.
3B0H2KA5T mmiMW:	Ho,	there 1s no force to it.
Ml-. BS0W3S:	If	an economic condition exists which mice3
it to an advantage of a man going there you can call it economic force or any other bind of force, but it comes right down to force anyway.3K0HKT-ABY Il&Dm&W:	fheia you propose a legislative
force instead of tbe economic forcer
EH* BS01H:	Legislative	force, yes. I don't conceal
any 11, i ng on that. f 8ke a boat 1 ike t fo e w J111 amoo k I? t b&t was put on tha run. 1 don't say that ever run a first-class service. 1 would like to know if the number of trips the "Tillamook* made to Southeastern Alaska was furnished to the Commission?
Y RaDFIEaM 1 S®H Knox anythin* about It.
ME. MOWMt Well, I car: furnish it. The f ili&faook too, 42 trips in 148 days, or something like that, five days apart.
msmzim BKWIffiD:	f	hat	isn't fair, Mr. Brown,
fhat is the mm thing that was said before, and it was in your presence that the agent of the Cnini rrunk pac'fio K& 11-road -stated that the vessel ran regularly and frequently, and was carefully advertised, and that business was solicited from the vessel, and fehat it was tsada perfectly plain thafe If s vessel ms wenfced a he would run. How, you shouldn't make one sta*;ament without making tbe other.
MB. BHOWf; K®11, I hadn't quite finished, Mr. Secretary.
SisOaETAKY H^PflSaB:	You	are	nofc^	counsel	for	one	side
of tbe case.
ME* BHOWF:	I am only as to the benefit a of ‘meriean
fishing and the development of Jlasfcsn fish ports as far as128
SSQlifJBY BSRFI'.EaRa	don't	gain anything by partial
statements of facts.
MB * Ba OW i A boat handling. 500 tons of fist., or capable of handling 60a sons of :.ish, car. carry U*8 same amount of fish as 15 or	BO fishing	boats,	and when all of that	fish
goes over the	mm route	anyway	that boat carrying them over
there will save the time of 15 or SO boats* which admittedly have two men to a dory .idle during that time. And, as I understand it, the placing of © boat on that service was to be a solution, although it was made ftpparent at the time that certain particular people did not believe Ihat would be a
solution ox the problem, and 1 believe all of them ----------- 1
speak the sentiment of the people on this coast of Alaska ------------
% be % where t he -3-re nd t ru&k f or any c&nad ian I n.s t i t at i on, can furnish us a superior transport ion, in time or otherwise, very well; but I do not belle vs, because they might furnish a superior transportation service that we should turn over to that country the full benefit of our .fishing vessels, find have them ultimate!;-, as 1 believe, and sincerely believe, they will be,	under the	present	exist ing conditions,	which	are
disadvantageous not only	to our	fishermen but to our	fish
houses, to permanently locate and operate oat of that port.
In the ruge-n sound district ^ort: Townsend was the place where halibut was shipped, and it later shifted tao Tacoma, and then to seaUle. % he rev# r the bulk of She fish is landed, that is the port that is going to control the fishing.
0 9ME* fOUHD:	Hr.	Brown,	as	1 understand you, you era
advocating a policy which would encourage the development of tfea Alaskan fisheries by a Mftll boat fishery from local ports?
J®, BBOIB:	Ho,	not	confined to that, Mr, Found,
no, sir; not necessarily small boats. By tests, large or small.
2S* FOtJIfPSell, I mean comparatively small boats as compared with the steamers Ibat run mow?
ME. BiOWlf:	$©,	not	necoss&rily. The Booth Fisheries,
for instance, freezes its catch, some of it, at Sitka.
So that I believe that allhough a superior system of transportation might be offered to us, that if we, by appropriate measures —* and I am not at this time Bug5 st ing any remedy as has been repeatedly pointed out |y Mr. Hughes and other
speakers-----while we are operating at the present time under
conditions no* as favorable as those of our brothers at the forth, we are willing to continue under those condit i.ms as long as this war lasts. far be it from as to bring up anything which might in any way engender or do anything that might in any way, how ever reacts, interfere with the mood and friendly relations of the two countries, But oftentIm.es natters which are perfectly right*, perfectly proper from the legal a t ana90 infe will, as you inow, angender feeling on the other side anyway. That is perfectly evident from the Order in Council of 1915. As the Chief Just ice has pointed out,)
the rea 1 object we is not as was stated in the Order.
SSCKJffAKZ HEDFIKID::	Suppose, Hr. Brown, your sagged-
t ion was carried out, will you infor© fch© Commission what remedy you would have if Canada. than s.imply cancelled its Order in Council, and she can do it, and fall back again to the tr sty of 1816? How mould you meet that situation practisally?
MB. BE u IB:	1 think, Mr. secretary, —
S£0HifiBT ESB^OTD:	How, 1 will ask you to remember-
in that connection before you answer the qu st ion, that you must consider you can't sons iter it wholly from the P&clfie standpoint. ?be treaty of 1&L£, which is all we have got, mhlch is what we have agreed to, was to cover all vessels sailing xroim Boston and Gloucester as wall.
The- lew then would be, if Canada, were to do that-------------of qcurse,
we all recognise she has the power to do it without oompilaint on our part, she has the right to do it, we hsvt agreed to it in advance --- if s Re saw fit to fs.ll back on the treaty of 181£s then no Amsrioan motor driven vessel would enter any Canadian port at all, no American vessel could ship crews in any Canadian port, and only sailing vessels without motive power, fishing vessels, 1 moan, of course, only fish ing vessels.
Any vassal would hava a right to coma in for shelter, or rapsira, or water, or wood, but further than that nothing else would exist. I want you to face that; situation now as a possibility and tell :m how the United states would ha advantaged under the
-p <f> /|
-a-airc imnt ans e s ?
MR. BROfll:	On	this	coast, first, Hr. secretary, 1
believe fchet Canada gets, as the Chief justice so aptly
pointed out------X mean pointed pointed out the phra.se —
quid pro quo for all vessels out of fear port. 3 think it is as much to Canadian interests as to our in?.er sta, and 1 thin-: she has repeated benefits, &nd, I may gogg*ftt, even farther than she dreaded at the t ime t be Order was put into efftot.
On t bis coast we are not dependent on Canada for bait-; tbat is, 1 am taking the suggest ion, as you say, vhere *bey would fall basic entirely on tbs treaty of ISIS. low, on the
Hew Ingland Coast ------ 1 only say this from Information thst
1 fasve receive- there, I don’t know thes . matters as matters of faos*—» I understand that a fc*elat ively small number of vessels took advantage of the mod as v.iveadi privilege, ana X tfoina also t feat Canada on the east coast probably anjoyed as lucrative a business and profiled as much by the boat that she aold American vessels as American vessels profited out of it.
the day has come when fishing is going to be conducted, especially on the lew England coast, s great deal by t he steam trawler. The development has been repeatedly pointsa out to me by, for instance, Hr. Ben Smith, of She Oordcn-pugh Company, Also on the Hew England coast now cold storage plant a have come into effactwhiofc produce bait; also on the Pacific coast Canadian vessels willaagain desire to .get bait from the jpaeri-can side.
mosmm BBBFilLBs Shea you think it waulin' t- be a material safe ter?
MB. BHOHH:	1 do not think it would be immaterial, but
1 don't think it would be & matter that would be in surmount able to vessels on that coast, I think that Canada enjoys just as lucrative s. business;.. i think the business that moves from
V
one side to the other is just as largo in both cases.
mmmMM IflEU:	Then	it	would	advantage	Seattle	very
Miefc, would it not, if Canada were to pass an Order in Council declining to receive any goods for transit from an American port, because in that case the goods would all have to be sent Sown to Seattle and shipped to American territory?
HF.	BBOwH:	1	can	hardly	conceive,	Mr.	Secretary, of
Canada taking such a stand, because of the fact the great bulk of the freight carried from west ? o e&at by the Grand H runic is fish, 1 think that is the great bulk of its freight west to east, is it not, Mr. Found?
Oil IK? JUST I OB Mttlfs Supposing t hey put into effect the treaty of 1818 and all vessels not allowed to come in there, escept those mentioned, it w -uld be just a short time until a greet fleet of Canadian vessel;-, would be doing that fishing,
MB. SHOWS:	1	don't	think	so.
OB IK? JUSilOE MZSF:	I	want	to	say	to	you, there are a
great many people in Canada believe that, and believe it is a great wietake to make any concessions to the -States at all,
~R • 'W.
j? >;
a'.. O 11because they claim by making these concessions in their ports they are preventing the building up of a great Canadian fishing fleet,
MB * BlOfW:	1 kno?f that is the fact;, and 1 know —
of course, your domestic affaire are your affairs, and l only answer that because you asked me the question. 1 understand also that the sentiment, however, has been changed a gr at deal in fehat respect, and that the people, for Instance, of Mrinoe Rupert petitioned to the Canadian government Itself to remove the restriction on baiting condit ions. And X think the people up theref as they stated in their own meet inga, certr inly welcrmeS the American fishermen comin? in there.
And another thing:	If	things	got	to	a point, as has
been pointed out, where the Grand arunfc would refuse to accept these fish,, they would be landed in mlftg-kn, which is
V
, the nearest point, they would be shipped by our own coastwise steamers here and then East, We are not absolutely dependent on the railroad, but, as j say, if the railroad does offer any kind of better advantage we would be glad to use it, but we do,not see .that because tit© railroad would offer a better means of transports!ion it is to our interests to turn over the entire fresh fish business to it. It is just simply a good deal a question as to whether you look at it from the Canadian or American viewpoint,
3E0MMT-M.Y EbBFIKLX :	And	your poini of view is the
two aro antagonistic?MB. BBOWI:	1 mean it is just simply regular trade
compstit i on i n tite mme fiela *
$50: iTAHI EiiDfHai):	You t Link they am antagonist ie
interestaf
MM BECmif:	I	think	ft is just simply regular business
competition as exists in ^ good many other Internet ional
■ ^
business interesta.
mOBETAM ESmm/D:	ffeat	point	of	View is very fatal
t o t h© purposee of t r. 1 s coismia^ior.
111. BIGOT:	And	that, Ur. Secretary, is the reason
why we ar# not suggest ing. any changes to be made at this time on it, and, as we stated, we were willing to go under the disadvantages*
SBOl.SfJURX 1REDPXELD:	3o long as that idea prevails
it is quite obvious the friction between the two countries must persist.
MB- SHOW:	I think that the same business competition
and friction will always persist aaonff different countries.
SKCMSMABt BEDFlEaD:	Of course, the feeling is very
different on the Atlantic Coast, where it has gone on for a hundred and forty years; they don't feel that way.
KK* BBOWff:	well,	the	investigations	I mace up there,
and the men I talked to didn't think they wore under the same disadvantage as respected Canadian bait as they were in the early days.CHIEF lUSflOS, ZAZZTi Hr. Sfsith was one of the strongest
advocates fchers were there for a policy of mutual treaty
between the two aourntrios*
MB. BEOWf:	Yes,	he operates companies on both aiders.
But Hr. S&ilfch is also a very strong advocaie of the view that,
ss far as pee lible, American fishing should be built up at
American. port.a. And -J believe t his alsio, that it &
tbe advantage of the lew gngl&nd coast ea we.11 as on fehis
coast, that wber& we can build up American fishing at American
ports it is that much to our busJness advantage. t isn't
a matter, of course, of any recrisiinetion against our Canadian
brothers. $* acknowledge t bey have the right to the same
ambition. Any measure, I believe, which would go to the
upbuilding and developing of these fisheries on our own coast !
would be good business, and good business from an American standpoint •* but, -as has been stated, we are not request ins the 0ommission t o mafee any change or allar con-1 i t iona at this
*
time at a .11* lit hough I think this, 1 am just simply -making this suggestion from a personal standpoint. f here is no doubt it is highly dasir-ble to furnish food to our relative peoples at this time as cheaply as possible, and certainly on as fair a margin of profit as Is possible, and the same reason would apply to fish as to any other ooimsoaity an:! business within the province anl control of this Coma! ss ion to in any way effect similar prices in the two countries whereby the people of both countries can profit by the cheap fish* jstleast if the people here can agree they can make a fail profit on these prices, the Canadian people could certainly do more busings and >re ©ore profit than we could. tf it is within the province of this Commission to make a reciprocal or the same price srJ put the same price or, this fish, or at least urge it* 1 think it, would be a move in the rigb% direct5.on for the good of both countries.
SMOMST ",BI EBB PI BIB:	1	ask if you don't recognise
Captain Smith, of the Gordon & Fishing Company, m an authority on fishing?
ME. BED!I:	I think sc, yes.
mMM&m EEBFISID-. IMS Is the question. I quote from page 219 of the Conference,"3tatemenfc by Captain Benjamin A. Smith, Tesael Manager Sorton-?eir Fisheries Co., Gloucester.n
EEDFIETM s 1 want to ask you what, in your judgment, would be the effect upon the Gloucester fishing Aeet if Canada were to suspend her modus fivendi and if it became necessary under those circumstances to proceed under the tresty of 1818.*
0Ai?f. SKKE:	1 wouldn't want to manage any
fleet of vessels.”
"smnmim mwmw:	not?"
"GAPS. SMITH:	Oh,	we would be up against it.
Our shore fisheries here would be operated all right, t he saoa as the Portuguese fleets, and our seining fleet would operate all right egaept ttie e&pe shore fleet. It would bandicap us, of course, considerably if we couldn't §&t certain supplies and ship men in the provincial ports. 1 lbink the same thing would happen that has happened in Ifewfouhdl&nd in the last few years. We ail know what has happened in regard to the bank fisheries, we know where our banker fleet has gone since we were not allowed %o ship men and enjoy the privileges of lewfoundl&ndthe same as we use to years ago.n
"SECRETARY EIBIHIJ):	Do	you wish the COMBitalOB
to understa rid, t hen, that if we were obliged by the notion of the G&n&ai&n Oo vamment to operate under t he only treaty i,hare now is, the effect would, in you* judgisent , be more or less disastrous to the Glouceste fleet?”
F#0AP7. SWKBs I do.*
JJBOK 0WI1SOI:	Hr.	secretary, that applies to the
Atlantic fleet4?
SEGBS7/HY BEDFIEIrU:	Tea.
ME. 0MIIK; And, Mr. Secretary, may 1 Just at this soment ask a question? Can Hr. found tell us now a&ny jBOdas vivendi 11 cense a were issued in t be year 1917?
ME. .FOOF 13:	Slightly over 40, I think. I must sdd an
explanation so that; that a nusber of years ago the vessels that were eligible for modus vivendi were restricted to those that were driven by sails alone. Year by year fewer vessels were eligible on account of installing motor power.
KB. CME:	As a matter of fact, I think that t he
Canadian Fisheries report- stages & tofesl of 57, but s few more or lesa is not material, but I recall with distinction, and sore partieularly do 1 recall it r»ith distinction by reason of the .fact that these statement Pm re made were ' written upon paper furnished by Mr. Smith for that purpose and by ipr. Brown in response to In .dries which I was making of him in March-------we a it, Hr. Brown, If 17?
MB. SftOWF:	January.ME. OXAH; :	Ja.nus.r;	,	1 have not i-ho -late. --- Ir:
wfeiah Mr. 8mith made this statement t £hat if we bad the fishermen we would be batter off 5.f we got no fish from Canada, and we could get along teller without Canadian fish and bait. I am sure of this, that we have ©ore bait within SO miles of Olouoeater than at any al&oo In fova aaroiia. fe have shipped frozen barring end squ!b north for bait. He says the difficulty to-day Is tbe gttt'Ing .‘f flahanrien. Fo?>ts tie tip in Canada and Newfoundland for lack of fiaharman. Perhaps that is wnat Mr. Smith a&y have referred to in Ms suggest ion that the packers were tied up in Newfoundland, due to tbe la ©ft of fishermen- I can readily understand that under conditions wfcici existed on tbe Atlantic Coset whereby we bave mai# ourselves, in a large measure, dependent upon the citizena of the Province for tbe manning of our fishing
vessels. 1 think it was Sir 8am Hughes, at a dinner t bat to
was given the Canadian Club of Boston in isarcr., 191?# tb&t sm .e £ h i a s t a I e me ntf t m t t be r e wer e a t bo us a nd me n
from Ilewfoandland at one t ime thet enlisted for 6tree years--------------
among the fisheries t ra-.t enlisted for ttree years upon the British men of war to serve across tbe water, all of which tended to tbet increase of the «bort*ge of sen that were available to tbe fisheries on tteMr side, and also made it more ifficu 11 for the pe p 1 e on %ba Armr 1 can sids to naonre CanadS n fishermen for American vessels, by reason of increased39
prices that were gaald fxom horns ports for practically t h&* bbme servio#.
ME* FOtlTO:	Let me just add there that 1 gave you as
answer, when 1 answered 1 h&d ixnvffilnd th® calendar pear 1$*!?.
fhe f isle r la 8 report is for fcba fiscal year.
R!l;» ORAla :	Mr. Smith, at the same time and in the
oourge of the same conversed Ion, made this statement, tfeat
great
Oaneda had received st&m benefit from American operations.
When as&a& as to the quest!.on of retaliation--------------these
questions were asked because of statements that had been made to me personally by officials of the Otrand rrctnk ’acific Bailway, as had been later expressed %o the Honorable Secretary in Washington, that the threat of retaliation by the Canadian Government to our Government of the limiting end the eliminating of the fishery privileges which were
contained under the modus vivendi B ,,	,	,
, described in tm Order
in Counoil, no advantage could be taken by that, but that the added charge of a dollar and fifty cents per ton of the registry of the vessel would be sufficient ground to prevent the passage of any legislation which would require for the pacific Oca,at, for the purpose of protecting —
mmmhm tmwitm:	the	mI# that, m official of
the Grand Trunk pacific Hallway Company?
*SW "*? «?*V *	Vafl
iiMl* v.'iajEL. .	I#8tCHIRP JUSTICE EkZmt When a-id he say it, htA under whet &ixqubbtanc© 3?
!2B* CMAKR:	Be said it to m in Mar oh, 1316,-----------
or in AugUBt* Ida*
mim mmim mzmt ffeo »s fcfe# gentleman?
MR. 0,Alt:	Is i% meoes#sry to write his name into
this record?	You must remember he is an employee of the
©rani Trunk.
3S©H*£AaT BK®frIEI3>* 1 think you should give the name or withdraw the statement.
IB* €MASRM J. 1). McNichol.
SBCBKfAHY HEDfIB'UI:	Of Prince Bperfcf
ME. 01 ABE;	Of arlnoe Buperta The bill that was then
for amendment,
OEXMf JUmQifi. S1ISI:	Of course, this sort of thing
T	g|$r
wouldn* t be evidence in « court of law at all, what someone said to someone else an3 wbate somebody aald to him.
MIwFDlIID:	fe would like to say in regard to Isr. smith
BQ
sts* ement there, it feed /reference to e war measure at all,
He was referring to whet took place in Newfoundland------------------
Ml. OIAIC* fenfclemen, you will find us absolutely in accord with all these expressions.
CHlliF JII37ICB MSlfT:	that Mr. Smith was referring to
his statement before the Oemr isslen mi what tooK pl&§e in Newfoundland in 1-09, flae years before -he war broke out, MM* POBKD:	With	the	modus vivendi, end where BinUnited states f I ah inf? vessels must operate under the treaty.
ME- CLAM:	1	would liks to finish the statement
Mr. Smith had made with reference to this feet. As indicated, all of tbe benefits ware not to the American fishermen that went into Canada, but that ©any of those benefits wort to the oitisena of the maritime provinces of Canadas who depended on tbe American operations for large revenues, he mad# this statement from Gordon Bay last year:
w?etitions from fIsbermen, priests and merebents, who united in rtquesting American firms to come an# buy fish.	Arnerican firms havc advane©d the price
one cent a pound over prices formerly paid. Canadian merchants are against operations in Canada, but the fishermen an a the people won't stand for He Canadian principles of retaliation. The petitions referred to cama from Barachors, and other ports* That country has bad great prosperity. Gordon & Pugh alone spent $380,300 there and bad built their coast,n€MJ&# JUSTICE HAZMi well, we have bad, ! r. 0lar'fe,
%'m advantage of bearing opinions of all these Gloucester fishing interests, tnd the same in Boston, and fcenrd them direct, and have she® or: our records, and we would naturally be governed by what was m id tr. ere-
ME* 01RA1K:	naturally. X noticed Hr. Smith's statement
with reference to fc ha sale of vessels in Canada, but 1 notice in hi« Gloueesler statement that he made no mafetion of the fact that they had transferred to Greet Britain some eight vessels of their own to carry on Uiir operations. They bed encourage# fishing in Ifewfoun^lan.l, the purpose being to transfer from Arnerican to Can■ dian regi stry.
BEOBJSTiBl KKDFIEBJ:	You understand, of oourse, Mr, Clark, -
OMI.SF JliSflCS SAIEI:	these people bad to stop doing
business witto fcwfoundaldn because of the modus vivendi.
And t fes same 11; ing would apply be re if t be modus vivendi were Biopped wife h Canads.
JfH. OXAHKt f hat would stop the operation of 3? vessels by sail fishing
CMIKP JffSf 10S HA&Kf':	Yes. That has been true year by
yesr. The Government of the United Blades have been urging us to extend that privilege to vessels that are driven in other ways, an it, was as the request of the united States for us to do that that led to % m correspondence that caused tee ir resident of the Uni bed States to suggest that t r,is Cone lesion shoald be appointed, to consider all outstandingdifficult let.
B&Q itl'fABT BifiSFlllB:	iRiaCaief	Just io# aasen is correct.
It us the fact that the major part of Ateerioan fishing vessels were excluded from Canadian ports, and the complaint that It caused, and tbe expanse and delay it oaused to American fishermen, very largely led to the present*--. Conference. AM it is © fact people of tte is city ought to know that the Act of Newfoundland in suspending its modus vivendi has, In t h® opinion of the American banker fleet, destroyed that fleet and caused it to go entirely over to Newfoundland.
1 think there is but one teasel operat ing out of tbe Atlantic port now of t he whole fleet that used to operate t bere.
JIHRCii (JOTSISO!?; I would like to ssalre this a&plsnat ion:
I was a&lled to ay feet in response- to % quest ion, t be answer to which same within my knowle-lge as a Food Administrator.
1 don11 misb what 1 have said writ* reference to the Alas&a situation to be charged to £ he Food Administrator, but as an Alaskan. In attar words, i don’t want to bring my official connection of the	matter	into % he discussion at all.
MB. IBOif:	I	have finished, !cr. li$cretary. I only	wish
to add that the subject which 2 have- presented on behalf of the Ala ska Bureau is somewhat of e difficult one of presentation to present in 8 frank, open manner, and give no offense, and I hope ainserely \ have not done so.
CHIEF J03TI OB	uA&.ml! :	I don*fc see how anyone could	take	tbe
slightest of fen##	to tbe	way in which you presented your case.HI. BE011- t'mnM you.
MB. FOUira:	fit ere is one point 2 desire to be clear on.
I was going to m%k you, do you recommenci, or do you fever, rather, that Canadian caught fish should be prevented from entering %%* United states?
m* mam: io, sir.
IB* ?0yU>:	then, keeping in view the development of the
fisheries teat has taken place along the British Columbia coast, and, 1 observe, along tbf Atlantic Coast, ana whioh it	the best of res.sons for supposing is going to con-
t inue to extend and expand aa It has on the Atlantic coast, that there is going to be a great development of the fisheries by small boats fishing from ports that can* t go, say, more than 150 miles, or thereabouts--------oven that would be a long distance ---------------------------not very ssaoh more anyway, keeping in view such a
development of that as bas taken oIeo©, what would be the effect of the prohibit ion of fish going into the United States, excepting from an American port. on fish oaugh by such vessels operating from such plmmm, we will say, as Bella Bella, and Smith's Inlet, and the western and northern end of fancouwr Island, and such many other places as will spring up along febe coast?
MB. BiQH?:	I would advocate along t fee same policy
of developing fisheries out of American ports, Mr. Found, as far as possible, to have Canadian vessels fiating for an American market to land t heir fish at* American ports asAmerican tests arc how landing in Canadian ports for Canadian markets. Any wmll fishery that might- be developed out of one of tbose southern ports, or one of those pieces which might, be half way in between ;he Canadian territory, will have, of necessity, to be a very small amount of the total catch, because over 75 per cent of the fish on this coast, often 80 per cent, are caught north of j}t%on* s 'Entrance.
Mk. FOlI IB:	Yes, b u t that isn't j us t a us we ring.
MB* BEOIS:	And anal;her Mng Is that the bill that was
proposed now, sm the $ec®etary said, and 1 have been very careful not to get ini o the question of remedies at this time, that is the only solution of auch a question from the American standpo int,
rM-M ITOfPs It was tfee effect of any such measure which I wanted to find out, whether you favor t he fish going in.
I can't see anything else that could b&ppen to the fishing carried on as f speak of.
13. BBOif!:	Shy, we welcome, and Ira glad to have,
Canadian fishermen come into our ports. It would build up the industries of those ports, with this one exception, that 1 do not think it is a good business policy for this country to in any way permit Canadian fishermen to fish under more advantageous conditions than American fishermen do.
Ids. SWKSS:	If	there	is	an	equal	on each side would
you he in favor of it?
ME* BHOMW:	m	favor	of	just	what?MB*	In favor of an arrangement of that kina?
1
Take tee case a a it stands now during the war, I traders set nd you to aay you have no objection to that because it is a war measure, is that right?
Wt. mo11:	Yes,	sir.
IB. BWMi	Sow	them, whafc	is	yo r objection to con-
tinuing ttet?
MB. BBOWi My objection to oonfc inulnp that ia just simply this:	lo matter how you view it, unless a proper
boat service could be put in from Prince Supert to Alaska to handle this matter, Canadian operators out of that port will aliays take just enough advantage to be able to bring tm fishermen to that port. i am kind of going over in a circle what I went over awhile ago. And l believe, even while j bave contended all along those fish can be bandied more economically from Alaskan porta, I believe even if there were a	slight fraction of	difference	in	favor of Canada, t hen it
would be up to	tbie Government,	in	the development of its	own
fisheries out of its American ports, to offset those privileges and in every way possible develop or meet that competition, even if we had tR put into offeet measures to offset such an advantage they have.
MB* SlhHf :	Are you afraid, Hr. Brown, if matters are
left after tte war in fcs.c same shape they are in to-day> that American ft she rater. will move to Prince Bupert and make their home therefIK* BEOi'B:	frankly, Mr. Sweet, 1 do; and I might say
that I he Canadian oil Uene there are of t he same opinion.
Talcs a concrete example, here a f I abing boat oapta !n, and be has a family. He*wants to b© with bis family as much as he car. If he delivers She greater percentage of bis fish into that port„ ultimately he will want to take his family there. I may say t tis, 1ms with.the existence of regulations or of proposed regulations, through which they thought the situation might be remedied alt innately from an American standpoint , have kept him from going over tbere.
MB» 3W11S:	that	would	be	tbe inducement to go over t here,
because	bo could	get	more for bis fish?
ME*	SEOfjf:	Ifo,	because he would have	his family	there
with him.
MB*	3S23&:	Why	would he want to move	to Frinee	Bapert*
because	he could	get	better prises for his	fish?
MB. 'MOW.:	A fish house, under ©listing condition© in
Prince Rupertt will always be able to outbid anyone bundling the business, to my mind, from a Southeastern Alaska port,
HU SWKET:	fell,	your	answer	would	be	yes ts my ques-
tion, would it?
ME. BliOl'W:	Why,	yes,	but	1	believa it Is our duty, from
an American standpoint, to counteract that advantage, becausa it is American fish, and an Amor lean product, and is sold to t be A me r i oa n pa ople.IB* SWEBf:	Thtn	what	you	are contenting for is not for
the Amorican fisherman, you don't want his to get the boat price he can for his fish?
MB*	BIOM:	I never have contended, and	would	not	think
of	n>a king suc h a o ont ent I on *
MR. BlESf:	Just	a	minute.	You	say	that	you are afraid
that Americas fishermen would move to .Prince Kuperfc to live?
HE. BROW:	Yes,	air.
IBa SEa:	And	that	the	reason why they would 2.0 there
would be because they could get more for their fisb there than at aetchiksn?
ME *	B10W:	V ni e r exist ing o end i 11 ons, yes	air,
R-h.	3IEBT:	Then I say that looks to me	as	if	you	didn't
want t Re American fisherman to get i he better price for his fifth.
ME. BBOHW:	$0	sir,	for	this reason, because, under the
condition 1 propose, the Canadian house would be right alongside of our American bouse on lmerloan territory, end bidding for these fish, and tne fishermen would iave % he same competition, and you can1$ take an Arntrlearn fisherman and explain t tat to him ha that he will agree with you on it.
CHIEF JUS ? I Cm HASK TT:	In many provinces of Canada a good
many of the fishermen take fcheir catches into Slouoesfcer and Boston and sell there. If 1 was as patriot ic a Canadian as you arc an American, ana reasoning the same way, l would be bitterly opposed to our people taking their catches there for fear they would become American citizens.IB. BBOWH:	I	will	tell	you,	you	will find t bis
difference on the ea. t coast, from that which we have on this coast, your people ft here for generations and generat iona have been Canadians, and I think you will find more people of Canada on this coast that ere American oit izens, more Americans here that have been Canadian citizens by 90 per cent, 1 would aa,yt than on that coast.
CHIEF JUSTICE HASW:	We	have	more	citizens	all	along
the coast,
MB. $80Hf:	1 believe you would have more Canadians
in this locality toar. on the other coast.
MB* SWIM:	1 have beer, very much interested in your
argument.	1	don't	see	exactly	what	his	program	is.
To enable the fishermen who sola their flab in Retch*! ifcn to get as much as they could in prince Bupert in all cases? If that is your program the evidence ue have is sometimes it is higher in one place than it is in the other. But assuming generally j am in ?rince Supert, how would you enable the fin he risen to bring their fish into Ketchikan to get more?
ME. BBO&B:	It is higher in Prince Bupert at the
present time, Mr, 3meet, because ~—
KB. SliR^T:	lot	always.	As	the	testimony	shows,	it
is sometimes.
MB. BBOltf:	Well, 1 will tell you it is very seldom
you will find the price of fish higher in Ketchikan thanprinee SUpert. I will ask Hr. Ripley. ’Rr. Ripley, fcow often do fifth bring more in Ketchikan than at Prince Rupert?
MB. BIFIMal:	lever	heard	of	it.
MB* BROW:	It would be very seldom, because t be
fisherman would have to transfer Lis fish from 'etohik.au to Prince Rupert, and they are mostly small boats, and it would be so much a pound to transport them.
HR. SIBBf:	lover mind the fact. low, how would you
go to..work to make that change?
MR. MOWi	Any regulation, Mr® sweet, which would
establish the buyer a at an American port instead of a Canadian port would not of necessity change the price of fish. You are go int? ^0 have the same buyers buying the same fish, so it in reasonable to suppose they would pay about the same price.
SECRET ART BSDfllLM):	So	you t h ink by legislation
you would force the Canadian buyer to come to th# American port?
Mr. Secretary,
MR. mom:	I	muia/ yes,
SS®E"ABY	Has	that	teen the oase with
Newfoundland which tried it?
MR. B10WH:	well, I am not an eapert on the legisla-
tion of newfoundland, but l know this, that the ultimate object of enjoying the benefits of a great industry, like the fishing industry, it somtimes is advisable to go out of our way to nurture that business a little bit in orderI
to reap the benefits of it, end it is especially so in this case because the transportation of it is American, the fish are caught off American boats and on American waters, and
sold to American people.
SSGRUTAKT BBDflKLi):	The	nurture	is	all right if it Is
all nurtured, but the action of Wewfoundland in withdrawing the modus vivenSi has destroyed the American banker fleet * and turned it over solid to the British flag. Ee did exactly the kina of thing which is now altogether possible by your action.
MB. OUB£:	Mr. Secretary, 1 think you have made s
point on our sl&e there. Prior to the time of the draw-ing of the modus vivenfti it was possible for these American vessels to do business with Newfoundland. Aoqo- ding to the statement, as 1 understand it, Newfoundland's industry is now a newfoundland industry, not an American industry, operating in Newfoundland. In other %ords, the benefits of that industry are going to Rewfoundland. But we must remember on this coast we have those conditions reversed, and if we can force the buying of fish in Alaska it becomes an Alaskan
industry, a United state# industry, and with fish destined for the United...States market.
m the matter that Mr. Sweet has brought up, as to whether fishermen would not get a larger price, I think pr. Sweet will recall the admissions of Mr. Johnson. in view of his statement at that time to the effect if the buying of fish could be forced nearer the banks, that the fishermen would petan increased amount of money and that the fish could be delivered into the markets of the United states for the present prices that they were be ins delivered for at Hupert, so that the American people would get the benefit*
While we are on that subject, 1 did not get the completion of the record on this question of this control by Food Administration as applying to the prices in the eastern part of the United states. Mr. Haddock is here and was operating with that Commission. iir. paddock, is it your understanding ~~~
SECnULH* BEBflteli:	Mr.	Clark,	what	has	that	got to
do wi. t h the quest Jon bafore ttee 0omrsIs si on?
MB* 0MBa:	fe	discussed	it	about	fehree-quartera of an
hour, Hr. Secretary, without getting tie fact into the record that i think ought to be there, namely, that control of fish from Prince import means a higher prise to the American public, the Qonmxminn public, without relatively increased bene fits to t be f i she m*en t ha t are op era t ing on t he banks from fort lock, by reaeon of the fact that the increased price which they get for their fish is expended in operating as a common carrier to take those fish into prince Hupert.
SJlGBBTRBI EHDFlBId):	well	now,	Hr.	Clark,	that	is
directly contrary to the testimony of the fishermen themselves at Ketchikan.
iiK. 01 ARE:	Mr.	Secretary, I think we may take into5
consIdarat ion ---
BDflSX3):	Mr. Clark, will you be good enough
%q allow me to finish?
MB. C&ABK:	Be	very	glad to.
8&CR&94BT mmiBm* that is directly contrary to tbe test iffiony that was offered by fishermen at Ketchikan, They
said, if you will recall it, they went; Into prince Bupert, or went into Metohik&n, or Into acofc her'port, according as they happened to be near. And if he was in one location be went in there, if hewas in another location he went to that place.
MB'. OX AM:	that was the statement of one fisherman
who was fishing a small locsl boat in local territory.
And if he happened to be fishing in Prince Bupert territory he went there, and if he was fishing near Ketchikan he went to aetcbikan, but 1 don't understand that statement was made as applying to the boats that were operating from the port* lock Bank.
BBCaSTAKY EEPFXBlm:	He didn't state anything about that.
ME. CUBIC:	Or	icy	Strait.
SSDaBTAKl	f hers /as nothing said about that,
as 1 remember it-	Teesa men mere not there.
MU. OMM:	ie	must no!; forget those facts. there were
4? fishermen at that meeting in Ketchikan, many of who© were
salmon fisherman who do not fish halibut at all; that that
is only a few of tbe fishermen that are operat ing from the
- r ■/ jL o iother ports of Alaslm in the halibut Industry, and that we bad no statement or no expression from them; that some of those expressions are contained in tphe letters to which Mr. Brown referred, and Indicating that be had. more of such kind of letters than there were men present; Salmon fishermen, halibut fishermen, and those who were in the industry si-ill retain their recollect ions of it and still maintain their positions as fishermen-
mmmmt mmmwi Mr. Clark, I for one rode with the banker fleet out of Gloucester, at one tine the plory of the Atlant i a Co&si, be canse Ie wfo undla nd w11 fcdraw i t s modus vivendi. I oanno\ see my way clear to favor legislate ion not now pending apparently, and, therefore, not a
subject foi present consi derat ion,-------I cannot see my
way to favor any legislation which endeavors to forcee by legislative law, economic law %o bend %o its will. 1 believe that is wrong in principle and bad in practice. And I a© not willing to attempt to coerce a country which has, under a treaty with this country, the right to restrict us in such a way that we cannot- object# and in the same way which has already destroyed tbe oldest end, at one t.l&e, she greatest of all American fishing fleets. You have got to show me, no*' opinions as to what would happen, but to show me essenv.ial ai.fTerences. 11 is all very well to say that tbe Canadian buyers would go into Alaska and buy their fish there.5
It is an easy thing to say; no one knows whether it is true or not* But every example in this worlde I think, that has Endeavored to ferae economic law to bend to legislative law has failed. And with the ©sample before us of the dee-trust ion of the great fleet under our own flag, which is gone, with that example before us 1 am not willing to put the fishermen to the risk, or the fish distributor to the risk of having to undergo a like experience here.
HE. CLARK - I would like to ask, Hr. Secretary, whether, in view of the statement that prices that existed prior to the opening in prince Bupert, if any inquiry was maie by Er. Haggard at the Westminster hearing as to what prices obtained for fish in *' ancouvar prior to that date, or prior to the conditions which existed and cams into existed coincident with the opening of prince Rupert in market condition?
SSSHKTABT BKOTBID:	1 don't remember. 1 will ask
Er. Chief justice B&sen in a moment. But I will say this,
Mr. Eagar did testify that in his judgment, from a selfish standpointB the remoml of the Canadian duty, to which duty some object ion was made over here before, would mean the transference of the Canadian fishing fleet to African register.
liB- CLABM:	I	osn as court for that so long as
Canadian fish were to be admitted into this country free of duty.
CHIEF JUSTICE HA3MH:	It shows the purpose of opinion
1	KQpeople have.
IRE.	C1AEM:	And, if he	desires, fee have the order in
Council	continue,	as he was	the first one to enjoy it.
SKCBE2AKY KK33FIELI?:	Mr. Eagar saesss to bo a very well
informed man.
M* 0MB'.K:	1 adfBit that.
CHIEF JUSTICE BASEST:	1	don't	think	that scatter was
discussed at Raw ^asts'iinster at all, Hr. Clark. I have no reoolleci- ion of it being disous3rd there at all.
ST A? mBM BY MR. ED WIH KIPLEY, PBE3. -EGB. HI "IKY FI81 CD- , oMTHM, flBH.
Ml.	OLAEa:	Mr. Ripley	was In the fish business in	1917.
Be was	operating	In Seattle	at that time. Inasmuch as	fehere
were no operations in buying in Alaska, as the Alaska banka were not developed properly until the later yearn, almost, in fact, coincident with the opening of Prince Bupert, which made a difference in the conditions and justified a northern buying market,	but the suggestion waa made	at	prince	Rupert*
or at Ketchikan, that prior to the opening	of	prince	Rupert
the prices of fish were very low here in Seattle, that they frequently, rather than to accept & nominal price for their fish, disposed	of them by taking them out and	dumping thss
into the bay.	&nd it occurred to me ~ —
MB.. PJPL1Y:	A very extreme case. That was doife wheret he r e wa s a f l o od on fc he & ark® t,
Ml- &&MK:	It occurred to me to inquire, and we had no
opportunity to inquire until this moment, of somebody who knew the prices that ware being paid for fiat in Ca.nada at that same time, f-fcis is prior to the opening up.
ME. BHOTTs Prior to the opening up i couldn't say what prices were paid in Canada, of course. I suppose all the fish that oame into Canada came on their own vessels, their Hew Eaj land or some other company. But when Mr ins© Eupert opened up, and for two years after, they paid frog: two to three cents a pound less for halibut than we did here, and the fishermen kept tilling us what friendly treatment they always got in Bupert, and so forth, and we told the© we were giving them considerably more for their fish than they were getting I here, but eventually the fish got naturally scarcer, and the fishermen followed the fish, and Buperfc* no question, was oloser to the new grounds they had discovered* Ml. FOUWDt What years are you speaking off m* nntmt Veil, subsequent to the open ing of prince Bupert.	1 can't say what date they opened up there*
MB. FOB®:	f hey started buying their fish there in 1912,
or thereabouts, but the railway aid not open up till 1915, so they had to trans-ship their fish from prince Hupert to Vancouver and ship last from there.
ME. EIFLEY:	1 don't know just when the railway opened,but 1 know the price was considerably less.
SKCHEfAHY lUOTIBXT):	So that agrees with the statement
made by the fishermen at Ketchikan, Bomeiirnea the prices wera higher in trine# Bupert and sometimes less.
HB. lltSEY:	fell,	at	that time 1 don't think, Hr.
Secretary, there was any buying in Ketchikan.
mmm/m mmmi&t Bo, I simply say the statement
was laade in jcetcbikan that sometimes prices were higher in
Bupert and somet imes they were lower, and that agrees with what you say, does it not?
ME * KXHiEY:	Oh, prices have fluctuated at different
times, of course, but since I have been purchasing in Ketchikan the prices, as a rule, have naturally been leas at Bupert, simply following that absolute necessity of bringing our fish aown here for shipping. fe had to buy at a price that would absorb that transportation.
SiCL£i.ABY B&jFXBIjJ):	You felt you couldn't afford to
pay as high a price on that account?
KB* BXPiM:	fhat was prohibitive.
SSOBlfJIJtf BlijPIBLX):	And you therefore bought when prices
were low enough to enable you to pay i;he cost of transports* ion?
IS. RIPLhI:	I	have been purchasing up there now for over
two years.
3iGICB$A3S KBDFIEU):	.Are you able to say of your o^n
knowledge there have not been times when the prices variedbetween on© point and tbe other so as to be higher and
lower in one point than the other?
jgg» BitOT:	Ob,	yes.	fhere	is	what wo call a legiti-
mate price and at other times what we call a fictitious price. The price ia run up on someone because it is urgent necessity. Judge Ounnlaon, speaking about this price being refleeted back into Canada, that was simply the necessity of tbe dealers bere who were expecting to purchase fish there to sell &t a fised price which the Government placed upon us of 16 cents. We had to pay a sufficiently lower price, if we oouia buy it, to get it down here end re-stip it; and it was understood when this price was made of 16 cents that the price in eastern markets would be IS cents plus the transportat ion and the reasonable profit. Up to this time I have been unable to know why our Government couldn't fix the price the same as they did there.
ME* 01,ABIC:	Mr. Bipjey, I would like to ask this
question:	prior	to tbe time of the advent of American
buyers at Prince Bupert were the prices at Brine© Bupert much higher than 5 cents a pound?
SBCBJSTABT REDTlEWt	What do you ioean by much higher
than 5 cents a pound?
MK. GMKc :	fell, any higher than 5 cents a pound?
ME. HIPZsYt Well, aosoewhere from that vicinity to 3 l/z or 4 per cent. When Bupert first opened up prices of fish were generally lower, because there was a very largeproduction and, in fact, there was an overproduction for some time, unless you could take advantage of cold storage facilities the market would become glutted. I recall somewhere about 1918 or 1915, that in fovember of that year there was -soisel hisg ever, I think, 1,700,000 pounds case in bare fh&nksgivi&g week, which was the poorest week in the year for fish everybody wants poultry —- and l think it sold --
1	know so — 1 think it sold in the neighborhood of 2 cents --
2	l/S, Jfr. Haddock .says. Simply impossible for anybody to take care of it or find a ready market for it unless it was frosen.
IB. 0LAB 1C:	1 would like to ask Mr. Haddock a question,
mWWm BY J* HADDOCK, HGB. OF THB (StMl'SSt
nm. go. , fAO'cni, wash.
0EXBP JUST I OB	What is your name?
Ml. HADDOCK:	Joseph	Haddock,
CHIEF JUSTICE HA2KH:	What is your occupation?
MS. HADDOCK:	Manager	of the Glacier Fish Company, of
f acorna.
I want to answer that question first in regard to the amount of fieb that was landed in Canada from American boats prior to .Prince ; apart opening up. ihera were none. There was no amrket escept in Vancouver, and no geographical advantage to American fish vessels, so no Araerio&n fish landedin Prince Bupert, British Columbia, .prior to Brinoe Eupcrt opening up.
MB. OXABK:	fas	there	any taken from American vessels
into ?Bmommrf
TO* M&ffitOQKt Hot from American vessels.
MB. CLAK.IC:	I	wanted to ask this question in order to
establish that the prices of fish paid prior to the opening
of Prince Bupert —
MB. fOOfTD; filfi Mr, Haddock say Vancouver?
ME. KABBOCa:	Vancouver,	yes.
MB. OMSI:	He says none from American vessels.
MB* FOOT:	Be re landed where?
MB. HABSOOfC:	lo	American	vessels	made	a	practice of
landing in Vancouver to land their catch there previous to
the opening up of Prince Bupert, because there was no geographical advantage,
MB. PO0KD:	fhat	about	the vessels of the flew England
fish Company?
MB. HADDOCK:	fhey were not bought. f hey were landed
by the Company themselves, but there were no purchases made,
ME. FOUffB:	Ho.
SBOHSf AH¥ BtOFiBU); Why not , Mr* Found?
ME. FCOTD:	f	hey were not permitted ,
SEOKEfAHY RRJDP11H):	Why	not?
MB. FOUTO:	It	was	against	the	law.
dECEMART BEBFIELJ3:	It was not a question of geographicalcondition, then, but by law?
m* wmm- i itenk so.
3&08M4EY BEITOM:	So the geographical reason was
not the only reason, but the law forbsde it?
ME* TCOTI3:	I think so, yea.
MR. fJMBIa I want to ask Ur- Haddock if be has knowledge of tbe operation of tbe “Glory of the 3©as" in frozen fish?
As I have and erst cod tbe operation of tbe "Glory of tbe 'ieas", those people paid 2 cents a pound for halibut in Alaska.
They frose tbe halibut and were unable to diapose of it, and finally dumped part of tbe halibut into the bay.
MB. IMPBOCKa f hat, 1 think, was in 1915.
Ml. 01ASK:	fhat	was just shortly prior to t be opening
of Bupertf
SECRET AST SKIFiffiD:	Do we argue from that. Hr. Clark,
the opening of Bupert has prevented the destruction of fish?
HE- OLIRK:	Bo,	but l sought to get that Into the record
for this purpose ------
momEAm KSOTIELD:	Wait a moment. Has not the
destruction of fish in this way ceased since Bupert has opened?
MB. CLARK:	Tbe	deatraction of fish ceased since Rupert
was opened?
SBOKKfART BEDFIEM:	Halibut.
KH**(3L/tHK:	Hot	on that account, Hr, Secretary.SEOBKTABY BED?IBID:	I	didn't	ask	you to answer it by
indirection, but to answer it straight. Do you know whether the destruction of fish, because they couldn’t find a market, has gone on, of halibut 9 since Prince Rupert	has opened?
MB- CL.ARM:	Permit me to answer that by	some	of	the	men
who were interested.
SSOBETAEX BlLiflEKD:	1 asked you personally,	if	you	know?
£H. CMIcJC:	1 ssali&Ai don't know.
mmmmt	Mr,	mM®ok, do you know?
ME- KJlDDOCKi	fhe destruction of fish t hat was frozen
on board the nGlory of the 3easr\ in my opinion, had nothing whatever to do trith Prince Eupert. In 1915 we discovered the banks that are known now as She Yakut at Banks, and the production of frozen fish, of 25,000,000 pounds, I think* was purchased that year, There is a normal consumption of about 19,000,000, and the people who were then operatini? the "Glory of the Seas" figured that the halibut that they had were worth more than they were originally offered, and they held them until It was too late to sell them. However, prince,
Bupert, it appears to me, has not been -------- the Issue has been
clouded here as to the real things we are fighting against up at Prince Rupert, fhis Order in Council you are speaking of there is changed overnight, and that was actually done here within the last three or four months, &nd those are the t bings that have been to the disadvantage of Seattle here, Mr# Cearetary.3KCBBTAH1 MOTIRLBi You mean the uncertainty arising from the possibility of a change?
ME. MD'DOCKi Absolutely so,
S.K0Klfi'Ef HKBFIEXj:	And	that	chiefly	no?
14E* HADDOCK:	Yes,	sir.
SMOBKSASY BEJiFlXLB:	So ttat what jou want to accomplish,
I take it, ~~~ if 1 am not right correct me,---------- is a stable
policy?
MB* MBBOGHM .A stable policy that is to the advantage of the American people, if we can get it.
SlORBfJLBY BBBFIILP:	Of	course	you	don’t	want	one that
m:ould be a disadvantage, of course,
KB# OMAEfCM Hr. Secretary, what 1 was endeavoring to have the record contain was that the difference in price paid to the fishermen in 1913 and that paid in subsequent years ms not a mt ter of the opening of Prince Rupert at ail, but a matter of an increased demand for a product % hat could t bus find a market which enabled t fee purchasers of that fish at wholesale from tbe producer to pay him a larger price*
3aCMKTAHY BEBFIEIJ):	It	say	be	admitted,	j|r.	Glark;
needs no argument* nofc necessary to fill the record further wi th i t.
ME. OMAM'R:	In	view of the fact I he statement had been
put into the record by a fisherman at Ketchikan that prior165
to tbe opening of Prinoe Bupert they got nothing for their fish, so to speak , but sine® 5 bat time they have had a fair price, and ao much stress has been laid upon the fact of having the fishermen taken care of, I thought it would be proper the record contain a record of the reasons.
ssmmtm nmWlMmt Everybody knows, Mr. Clark, the desand for fish food snd the shortage if meat has greetly increased the price; but that has .nothing to do with % be evi6er.ee ti&t 5a before this Commission fee the effect that since prince Rupert was opened, that by reason of having a double market: to sell they have been able to take advantage of one or the other market, as the ease mi.ffht be, that was the unanimous testimony.
MB. CLARK* Mr. Secretary, I would liketc ask this:
If it were determined ttat the i'rince Bupert market was to remain open, and that all purchasers of fish should receive identically the same eons idoration at Prince Bupert, would it not be the logical thing that the wholesale purchasers of fish on the pacific coast would be one bouse at Bupert rather than to hsve several houses from where they purchase?
SJiCBEl'AET BESPIBl^t Certainly 1 don't know what they
»	■ "W.
think this advantage would be, They themselves don't know;
&u least they don't say.
JUTRCa Qmmmm; Ur. Secretary, it aaa been called to my attention that possibly what 1 said in regard to regulation of prices might be mis const-rued.
x«Cl'Mm	I	don't	think	so.
JU3GE gBStaaOH:	The	rei'erenae which I asafie to the
dealt
regulation of the price of fish only with war conditions and rose out of an attempt to substitute,by the Food Administration, fish for m®at.
SBC! Sfi.SY HKJFlSXi):	I understand that.
JOBG-E -3U!TI80F:	So	that	would have no connection or no
bearing on the subject of an olitoa$e settlement of the re la t i on, of t he h us .1 ness re la t Iona of t h e t wo c ounfc r ie s in dealing with the fisheries.
BE* SMITH:	1	would	like	feo ask £r.Haddock a question.
We are very much interested in the condit ion of the halibut on the grounds off Yakut at, ani he stated that daring one year, which I don't remember, there we re 2$,C00»0e.0 pounds of halibut caught on that one ground. Is that correct?
Ml. M&DBOCX:	If	you	understood me that way you mis-
understood me. I made the statement % hat daring t rat ye r there were £5,000,000 pounds of halibut fjo#en in the R'nited States, or on the pacific Coast, but they didn't all cois© from % he Yakut at Banks. 1 don't know just what was taken off the Yakut at Banks that year.
DB* Slff S:	f*	hank	you*
BBOEExAKY EEIiFIElB:	1 wish t o state t hat the Conference
has received from Mr. lowsssn for use as an exhibit in cocnec-t ion with his statement ma.de at the first session on ipril 24th ,a very full st&t orient of th# dully o&fcct ox Book©ye 3tx®on
for the months of July and August for ail the different
canneries, and in some eases over even a more extended
period. This was presented in person by Mr. X^ow&sn to the
Oosnfgissioner of Fisheries this morning. m are- very such
obliged to you.
Ml. aOIMlif:	Might	1	aay.	.Mr* secretary, that while
there has been some delay about getting out the other
report concerning the capital invested,the labor employed
and the results of the soakey© fishing, that 1ft is rapidly
approaching completion &nd will be delivered to the Oocu-Meslon
not later than tomorrow. The delay is unfortun&te, but,
under the circumstances, unavoidable* That sas been corrected.
(Statement referred t-o received and filed a a an	exhibit. |
EE. fOUUD:	I	would like to j.dace	in the record the
document read at	a	previous meet mg in	connect ion with
that stacle by Mr.	Cunningham yeaterdey.	whioh shows the	dally
landings of sock,eye in British Columbia throughout the season.
3ECB sTABS EMfHEbiJ:	xhe	skate-cent which Mr. Found has
banded in will be put in the record in ffe# fores of a oopy thereof, showing tb# total catch In t be period from July goth to July 31st, inclusive, in the years 1914, 1915, Itlo and 191? and also the total catches in the first- five days for the monthof Auguai for the mn# year, together with the total ©atohes for the estirs month of August,
!he oonf&renoe will close its ccnsid@r»tion of port privileges this afternoon, and, therefore, mould like anyone who wishes to address it further to do it new.
JP9KH&H 3ZAT3&umT B2f MB. £ jIIK J. BB0M1T.
ME* BBOil?:	I	wish	to introduce into the record one
more itesu 1 have taken up most of tfaa Commission's time to-dsy, and 1 don't wish to t-sfce up any more than is necessary, but in this cage it seems to me 1 would like to have the record in the evidence, of showing the attitude of the fishermen on this question is not i a one-sided as would have -appeared from tbe meeting that was held in ]£e 19 fe iJc&n.
I have a letter feere from the predecessor in offloe
of the 3-out teas tern Alsafea Fishermen's Association in
Ketchikan, FeIs (Jibson, who was the predecessor of tfee
bead of the organisation there, ana I have hi# letter
as follows, together with ©any more letters like this*
1 don't know how many of thoa. They run up in the dozens, and they are all of tbe same general tenor. It would
be useless to encumber the record with all :ti~ the®, althodgb
.1 will introduce them if the Commission wamte them, fhis
was on the stationary of the Southeastern Alaska fishermen'sAssociation, Besaisber 22, 1916. I’bat w..-.s written at the
time that legislat ion was pending in Washington.
^eoreimry of Commercee Washington, la 0. pe&r 3ir:
I have fel,lowed fiahing. in Ala&kan waters and made my Pome here for the last sixteen years,* f he a&laon are pract ica 1 ly @xt err- inat©d by t b6 f isb-traps and moat of tfa* benefits of the halibut industry go to tbe Canadian port---------Jrrinoe Bupert.
We should have a law which would ka-sp this business in Alaska* X see no future for tbe fisherman who desire to live nrA do business bere unless Congress passes a law similar to a bill that wan introduced last session forb 1Ading 'fresh or froa -n 11;libut or salmon from the north pacific Ocean or its tributary waters to be adsitied to the united ritatea thru any foreign country except when tee seme shall be in hond from an American port.* f his would compel moss all of the fish buyer? to 3o busInnas in -3* i>. AlaB-ke instead of Frince Bupert. If such a law is not passed it will be Ho the- flsber-m&n*$ advantage to move to prince Rupert *
Beeped fui lyf
I 31 fined) lels O-ibson, *8E0MK7ABY EEOT1KID:	Hr. Brown, l not i ce that at the
time this leg! si a t i on wa s pend i nf: a numb er of 1 e 11 ers, all of one fee nor, were written; they ca&e to is©, what means were taken, to your knowledge, to.secure these letters?
SB* MOW:	1 do not know, Mr. secretary, excepting in
the ease of this present letter. It was suggested* I think, ty the Bureau Shat the opinion of this very gentleman, the head of the Union there in Ketchikan, should be ascertained, and 1 wrote up that the inforssat ion be taken from him.
I	have noticed, as you f.sve stated, the', some of those letters had on fcfee top of t km that these fishermen had to do
business in Bup-art end the letters were oonfident ial. I
public
can only take fross tfcafc that they were afraid of it becoming/ knowledge in prinee ; upert, that if they were writing letters tbat might in any way be against the port of Prince rupert they Blight not receive the same courteous treatment they 616 otherwise. 1 would be very slow to believe any of these gentlemen signed the&e letters against their will.any more than the g.entltmn would sign the latter at Ketchikan.
SKCBBTA1T BED? I alii:	What invitation was sent out, to
your knowledge, asking for theae letters?
ME- BROW:	fell,	1 don*t know t mt any invitation was
sent out, except 1 do reaembcr in the particular ease of this Iels Gibson that 1 was requested to get his attitude and view on the subject.SiSCKJETAHI KIDH1M:	By whom?
KB* BlOWf:	By the Bureau,
3MOBmASY BBMFIEI :	By	the Bureau of Alaska?
KB* BBOWIf:	Fo. United States Bureau of fish^ies.
SBQ'BfAHY HEDF1KH):	Is	Er. Clark in the room?
MB. BBOWt:	He	Just	went	out.
330BBTPM EiiJFlKID:	?	r.	Bughea, did 1 understand you
want to imk0 a statement?
mm MM JTATEMMf BY IB. B. 0. HUGBE3.
KB. HUOSBi:	Yes.	Mr.	.Secretary, I would like to make
s brief statement of a more or less general nature.
1	have had no particular interest in ©ucb of the . ooumentary or other test Imony t-hat has been offered her®. I may also say I ieBire to have Mr. McPherson, our .secretary, explain certain things, call your attention to s ease maps, which
2	tlink ought to be explained for the purpose of your record and for the purpose of showing t he authenticity of any data upon the maps. with the two exceptions we will havs nothing further to offer on behalf of the Bureau. Shall l proceed
at this time?
mmmmi HSDPmD:	If	you please.
MB. HUCtEMM:	I	want	to	me.Ire ft trrief general statement
first as a preface for my conception of what 1 tlink ought to be, broadly speaking, a national policy.It 1 a my uno erats nd ing % tea % the ri g h t s t ha. t we re recognised originally by the treaty of 181®. and which were retained, and slightly modified, by the treaty of 1P7S, granted because of certain rights asserted by the colonists, and for that reason they were preserved in the treaty of 1875 as a concession or recognition of certain asserted rights on the part of the early colonists# embodied after much insistence in the treaty of 1875, in other words,—-I may be wrong, but this is my recollect ion, sojBefc i&e since I looked this up	but we have under the treaty of 1873
as a matter of recognition by Canada of rights previously asserted to the colonists; that no corresponding concessions were made feo Canada by the United Stales. If Ihat be true then this country would be free, if it saw fit, to deny to Canadian vessels the right that exists under the treaty of 1818, I only sent .ion that because it seems to me that much of this discussion tbrows the wrong conception existing as to what was the relation between the two nations growing out of the treaty of 1616, and for no other purpose.
it is evident, by the controversy of a hundred years, since the treaty of 161b, and it is evident', 1 tlink, by what has appeared before this Commission, that many conditions esiet that ought to be remedied by treaty, I do not want to Indicate what shall be covered by such treatyat this time, with the exception of one to which I will refer in a moment.
We have offered some evidence here that 1 think will be helpful in guiding those who are charged with tbe responsibility of negotiating such treaty, because they indicate that self interest or other causes prompted a course really inimical to tbe welfare of both nations, and in many, many respects t hose matters will and ought to be eliminated as to whatever treaty is adopted. 1 have as id this much, so 1 will not be misunderafeood in what X ass about %o say, and also in explanation of the fact that some of our evidence might have seemed first to have teen offered ill t he nature of criticism, when it was only offered as indicative of the things that ought to be rerselied mutually between the nations.
This, R*r. Secretary, I desire to say,--------and 1 speak
for myself, and 1 hope that 1 speak the view of the Bureau,
and I hope I speak tbe view of the Alaskans whom l represent------------*
1 cannot concur with what has beer; suggested as an expression of true national wisdom, that the policy of our nation should be rested entirely upon the principle of natural or economic law.
Let us assume that the natural advantages on both coasts, if you please, lay with our sister country to tbe north in respect to the development of the f 1. s h e r i e s. s$ hen the future production of fish, by the operation of that natural law,left wholly unrestrained by national legislation or treaty, the catching. of fish and the entire control of the fisheries, hence, of the fish production, would rest with Canada.
How, in my opinion, if the converse of that were true it would be unwise for Canada to outer into any treaty arrangement or any other negotiation with America by which she would for all future time be dependent upon America*! for her supply of fish. 30, Hr, secretary, J, think that any policy adopted by this country in obedience to what is called an economic or a natural law, which makes the future population of America dependent upon another nation for one great important supply of food, is not a wiae national policy, If we applied that policy, as we have applied it in the paat in respect to our merchant marine, we would never have a merchant marine, for the simple reason that other nation® would always be able to build end operate ships more economically than we and, therefore, we would depend iron at her nations to carry our ocean borne commerce, If we depended upon that law, Mr. secretary, in my judgment we would have very much reduced reasons, if not good ones, for the further great sacrifice of human life in the prosecution of the present war. Because, broadly speaking, Germany is prosecuting this war upon the great theory that she is the super nation, and with that economical cost of her centralised government- , and her .facilities in science in commerce, in trade, control over her people, shecan produce, as we know she does in many fields, more economically than other nations, and sold often more economically than we producer!. For illustration, she produced nearly all t ho important byproducts of coal, and vse have been dependent for our dyes upon it, but probably will never be again. And so in many other fields, by her uniform policy she has been able to encroach upon tfee world's trad6. But wherever a nation renders itself in any great material interest dependent upon another nation,
1 think she is committing a very fatel mistake m a matter of national policy. And for that reason, Xr. secretary , it has been my aiic, in laying this master before this Oost-mission, to present facts broadly, with a view of . what may be the important element a to take into consideration in determining a nat tonal policy, which I think should only be adopted after peace time, and not before, because i do not think it can be wisely adopted before, as to what this nation's course should be in respect to the development 9 the upbuilding and the control, as far as this nation can legitimately sue! rightly control it, the production of the seafoods that our people will require* in my judgment, ife will cost the nation as a whole less in the long run if that course be adopted than if we become dependent upon a no t he r tm. t i on.
»
How, I recognise that the advantage that we have on thiscoast is perhaps quite offset by tbe advantage Canada has on the other coast. And 1 reoognise, in determining these questions ultimately between the two n't* ions, there may be something conceded against us on this ooast for a concession made Canada against us -on tbe other coast. 1 am not undertaking to say now, because I think the matter should be more deeply studied than 1 have studied it, what definite policy should be adopted. f bet 1 do say, when we do adopt a policy, when me formulate a treaty and pass laws for tee execution or carrying out of that treaty, it should be done broadly with reference to the future food demands of the American people so far aa they msj be supplied by the products of the sea,
s
We have in tbe nortbland, or adjacent to it, very great potential source of seafood. We believe on tbis coast that it can, and ought to be developed as largely by American fishing vessels and under the American flag by American fishermen es it is possible to do so in Justice to all the people of our country, and, of course, not by the employment of any marrow, selfish or unfair method. ? have said tbis because 1 want this Body to understand that we nave not approached the subject in any narrow way, or with any narrow point of view actuating us, but rather to speak broadly for the interests of a great people, whose foods demands of tbe future require at our bands now some thoughtful
180cons idersat ion, some r, ise safeguarding.
I think I do not oare to add any more at this time, except to express the hope those who formulate the treaty will give careful consideration to ell the facte that have been disclosed and that we have endeavored to put in this record for their guidance, and that the senate in ratifying a treaty may have access to all that information, to the end that, without Injustice to our neighbor^ the very highest measure of justice may be afforded to the American people for all future times.
I would like to have Mr. hopherson make a statement.
3RRRMRRRMM BY MM. J. 1. 11 c
ALASKA BITHI5ATJ, BMATMLE CSAMESB 0? COKKBKCE and
COMMERCIAL CLUB.
RIP:. Mc?BMB30£:	The Alaska Bureau wishes to introduce
into the record three maps they have prepared, prints of the ones shown on the wall, one showing the North Atlantic Coast, the second one the North sacifie Coast, and the third ----
CHIEF JUSTICE RASJjIH:	Mr. McPherson, would it be
possible for you to furnish the Canadian Commissioners some of those?
M.B. Moral H 3 GB:	Certainly.	And	the third, toe map
ol Alaska showing the location of the fishing industries of the northland.
1 R1The data from which these maps were prepared was all taken from the official maps of the United States and Canada, the Coast Survey charts. Where the hundred fathom line is not shown on these charts, it is dotted approximately, from the soundings as shown on the charts. You will note that in places the hundred fathom line is shown by a broken line and elsewhere dotted as it is along the coast of Labrador where it is not shown on the Canadian charts•
The map of the Uorth Atlantic coast shows the extent of the continental shelf lying off the eastern border of the United States and Canada and the location of known fishing banks, and any probable fishing banks which may be found within the depths of a hundred fathoms. For that reason we have shown Hudson Bay as colored and as a possible source of food supply®
The map of the lorth Pacific Coast brings out strikingly the fact that we have no continental shelf along the shore of the Pacific states as is shown on the Atlantic coast,
The inland waters of British Columbia and Southeastern Alaska are colored as being within the range of known fish-ing areas, although some of the waters in Southeastern Alaska have channels greater than a hundred fathoms in depth.It is not until you reach the south cooast of Alaska that you find the continental shelf reaching out from our shores and extending along the coast of Alaska and across Bering Sea. As to the fishing possibilities of these areas little is known except wherever they have fished off the Alaska coast they have found fish in abundance. The fishing resources of Alaska are
»
very much in the same condition as ar© the other great natural resources of the northland.3 - They are in the developing stage® We know very little of the great wealth of the northland.
The map of Alaska which shows the location of the fishing industries, fishing plants now in existence, shows this industry to extend from the south border near Ketchikan all along the south coast of Alaska including Bering 8eas the northern plant being on Kotzebue Sound. Tliis development has been a gradual one. It is only during the last few years that fishing has been conducted in Kotsebue Sound, du." to the increased demand for food supplies.
Speaking from the atana point of the Alaskans and expressing their wishes as I have learned to know them* they view the development of these great fishing resources of the northland as along lines of great economic loss, operated and directed as they are from a far distant base*
183As a result there has been no intensive development of that north country as there should have been* With such an intensive development we would have reduced materially,the cost of production. That factor has not been important in the past as there was no great demand for the fish. The north country was a pioneer land in the first stages of development and had not the means of transportation but with the increased demand for food supply it is going to be more necessary each year to develop those great resources, not only in a way that will reduce the cost of production but will tend to develop the tributary territory. The more this industry can be centered along the coast of Alaska^ the fish delivered to the nearest shore station by the fishing fleets the more we are going to economize on the efforts of the fishing fleet, the more results we are going to secure from their efforts at reduced cost, and the greater we are going to increase the production of fish* This is something that applies not alone to the fishing industry but it applies to all of Alaska's great resources, with which nature has greatly endowed her as she has our northern
neighbor* She problems of Alaska are in great measure the problems of Canada*
One distinct fact will bring out the wrong policy that has been adopted towards the development of those great resources. '!his last ye^jAlaska produced principally inminerals and fish products a value of, approximately,
$97,000,000^ with a population of less than 50,000. Despite this enormous output, the territory went back in population over 4,000® The reason for that is that
we have been developing these resources, not from an
and
Alaskan bass but from a distant base/that has not resulted in the development of the territory. It is only by centering the industry at the nearest point possible to the base of operation in the northiand, that you are going to be able to produce fish in Alaska at a reduced cost.
JUDGE GUM IB ON: Mr. Secretary, Mr. Barber, of Ketchikan, desires to address the Commission,
SECRETARY RBDFIELD: I have been waiting all day long to give Mr. bowman an opportunity. He has been waiting for it since 10:00 o'clock this morning. If Mr.Barber has any other matter than that which he presented at Ketchikan, I would be very glad to hear him, but we had the pleasure of hearing from him fully at Ketchikan and I supposed his views were fully presented.
MR. BARBER: I will only take a few minutes.
STATEMENT BY ME.J.C.BARBER, PRESIDBOT COMMERCIAL CLUB OF KETCHIKAN,ALASKA.
MR.BARBER:	There are two statements. One is in regardto a statement which you mad© a few minutes ago regarding trip
this/to Ketchikan, At the time you were in prin-e Rupert you stated there were very few fishing boats there and found a great many in Ketchikan. Apparently you were there under conditions which we have been trying to attain. At t hat time Ketcsaikan bad the fresh market and prince Bupert had the cold storage market, dus to the fact that the Grand frank Railroad had a landslide and was out of commission, so it wsa on that account we were getting practically all t he finning boats coming from the Alaska Banks, and we were handling them to the best of our ability, although they came on us suddenly. As soon as conditions wore relieved at prince Bupert a wire came over, and our fishing fleet is there.
3KCBBTABY BBMflBIM):	til gone?
MB- BAHBJSS:	All	gone,	practically. The other statement was:	Beference has been made to Ketchikan a good
number of times here, and I would like to state that the reason that there were not sore t owns represent ed ---3K0EBTABY P.SDFIBXD:	Mr* Barber there is e a iff#
iculty with that statement. The road was open the flay before w© left prince Bupert.
MB. BASBEB:	The	notice	probably hadn't coce up.
It may have been open, but it was immediately closed, because for two days after you left the fishermen told mothere wasmo fresh fish market in prince Rupert a no they were all trying to sell in Ketchikan. You left on Friday.
?be other point is, that at the conference in Alaska^ Ketchikan was apparently the only tow: represented, be-cause I think the t owns north tad Loped to gel % he QommiUBion to list ante these, and when % nay found out they oouldn' t it was too late to get their represent&tivesato the Qon-ferenoe.
SiSOIariTAHY BEBF:J£H>:	f	here were some fishermen from
Petersburg there.
M* MSBKB:	Yes,	but	very few. I think Judge Gunni-
son, who was at Juneau, at the extreme northern end, will state the argument a we used there should be cons idered as taken from the southeastern Alaska district.
BE (B .a? A BY BEDF1BLR):	I	am very sorry we could not get
farther north. Mr. Lawman.
ME. WWMT:	Hr.	Secretary,	—
SECRET A BY	t If there are any fishermen who
desire to present their views on any of* the gratters we have discussed, and if time -permits after the Fraser liver matter has been discussed sa thoroughly as seems necessary, we will very willingly give the© an opportunity to be heard further.
Jcl)3a SlFHITIScr:	Hr. strong, of JCetcteikan, sent me
eopies of four letters wb.iah were referred to during the discussion of the Chamber lain bill in Seattle and asked me
«a; o &if 1 would hand thes to the Commission with a request that they go into tbe reoord. They are oop las of letters addressed to you, I think.
SECSUSTARY HiaRFIElj:	We	cant	promise,	Judge	Gunnison,
these will go into tbe reoord. 'm will look them over and if they are deemed pertinent by the Commission t bey will, of course, be placed in tbe record. But Mr. Strong has already handed me four other letters. fe have now about eight letters ci Mr. strong’s. I think bis views are made penectly olear, and I will say some of the letters be has handed in do not seem to have a very direct bearing upon the subject; but; if these are deemed by the Commission to be pertinent we will be very gla--* indeed to have them m&dea part of % re record.
Tbe Conference ie adjourned to meet at 10:00 o'clock tomorrow morning*FRIDAY, MAT 10, 1918, 10:00 A. H.
E1.DF1ELP:	f	fee meet ing will please come
to order.
Ihe program for the day 5s the further consideration of the conservation of the 8 oc Ice ye salmon in Fraser giver.
In response to my request# the officer of the Department of Dommeroe located at Ketchikan, Hr. W.0. BeBrille, Inspector of Might bouses, who has furnished for toe record a memorandum containing data of buildings constructed and permanent improvements made in the town of Ketchikan during the years 1916, 191? and 1-18. I will read Mr. BeBrilie's letter In full and place tbe accompanying data in the record* fe will bear from anyone who can throw any farther light upon the matter from asource, although the dommlssion can no longer give time to a discussion of facts, but will gladly receive any further facts now, or which may he hereafter transmitted to it. The letter reads an follows;
(Beading letter, which was received and /filed as an exhibit.)
In relation %o the subject in hand 1 read the following two letters* (Heading as follows%})
Ynno ouvor, B • G..
e nay /is.
Secretary of Chamber of OorsiBeree,
Seattle.
Dear sir:
Having bad some twenty-five years' experience in the fisheries on this coast I find she trout and suckers of the Fraser Biver destroy both the eggs and young fish, low if tbe Government wouia allow these fish t-o bo caught ana used commercially 1 &a sure an unlimited amount of good would be done. At present the aovemment hat oh &nd protect trout, for the sport ing element of Vancouver and ? ietoria.
Yours faithf■ul1y,
I3§d) 0, P. Batson.w
0Vancouver. S. 0*,
B lay / 18.
Secretary Chamber of Commaroe,
Seattle.
Dear 3ir:
Having had near twenty-five years' experience in the fisheries of tbis coast 1 know one of the censes of tbe destruction of tbe halibut is the sea lions* lot only do they destroy halibut, but all fish that they neei for food, let tbe Government- cutters which have plenty of time go out and kill them with explosives.
I have seen 2,000 of thesa in the Virgin Rocks at one time. The Dominion Sovermsent have two of these boats built for fisheries protective cruisers and are simply loafing about the barbers. II ~onld be good exeraise for the crews.
Yours fa. i t hf ul ly,
(Sg&l §* f* Batson.*
These are accompanied by a memorandum reading to the Seoiefc&ry, tfi?lea3e pla©@ these letters before tbe International Commission,ff which, as you see, has been dona.
Hr. Lowman, would, you permit my asking you a few
190quest ions at this feline?
KB- LOWKAI:	With	pleasure,	Er.	Secretary.
mwmm m&r&mm m me. w. a. zornm*
mSIiMMM EEB.HE1B:	Mr.	Lowscan,	what	information
have you concerning tuc injury done within American territory, or, to your personal knowledge, within Canadian territory, to the spawn of toe salson, or to the young salmon, by fishes on the spawning grounds? fbe conference,
I am sure, would be glad to know your estimate as a practi-
far
sal man of the extent of the difficulty so as it may esist?
ME. T,Gf MAI?:	S0 snswer that quest ion with a. definite
percentage would be utterly impossible, but that in the waters of British Columbia used as spawning, and also in Alaska, the two being of similar character, everything, it seems, of both the water and the air consider the salmon as the "table setrT.
the fishes known as *U'rout% for instance, are successfully fished at all times only with salmon eggs for bait because of their known desire for that kind of food and their use of it.
&2Q1.KSAK? EK5FIJSID:	1	don't understand just what
you Etean that the trout are fished with salmon eggs as bait, do you mean that the eggs are collected and definitelyused or sold as bait?
MB- M01MAZI:	The*	eggs	Ere taken from butchering places
of salmon and preserved as bait, because it is known that that is the most attractive food article to the trout und ground fisbes of the upper waters of these streams and will bring the largest and quickest result to the fishermen.
iSMCBEfABT RMRflELB:	30 that these eggs thus preserved
are a regular article of commerce in the sporting goods stores?
HE. LOflSAF; Yes, sir.
SBCE.ETABY EEDflllD:	And that is based upon the known
fact that they are the favorite food of toe trout?
MB. LalEAn:	It	is.
SEOHBaAHY REDtlKLB:	How, are those sold in American
□ ities in that way*
EH. LOMUIf:	Certainly*
SeOHEfAEY BSDPIBLJD:	And, to your knowledge, in Canadian
cities?
ME. aOWMAH:	I have never purchased in Canada, but 1 do
not imagine that a boundary line wouia change the facts of either the I rout or the sportsmen.
3j^0HEMARi? EESFIBIMj:	And do you know what the facts
are in Alaska?
MM. LCHRAIT:	I	have	seen the trout and the gulls working
on the eggs in Alaska..BSOIiSXAHY BEOT2BI1):	Have	you	seen	tie	salmon eggs exposed
for sale in Alaska to sportsman?
MH* IQWMAN:	I	have	not.
3BCSISSAEY BBBFllia:	Go	right	or,	Mr.	loman.
HR,. LOtMA"7:	Mr. secretary, Mr. Chief Justice Hasen,
and gentlemen of the Oos-aia^ion:
I want to preface my remarks by at tbis time thanking you in the nameof tbe Washington fisheries Associat ion for your extraordinary patience and kindliness to those of us who have aome before you. Thai we have seemed at times to repeat add re-repeat, lo be trivial and outside of the question,
Bee me at no time to have affected your good busier and your kindly courtesy, fever before have we, aa an Association, had the pleasure or tbe opportunity of such bearing as we have had at this time. Haver before have we had the opportunity to make a record that, be it good or bad, is the record that we sought to bava made, and for Ibis one and all of our members I want to thank one and all of this commission moat heartily indeed* I find myself lacking in morels to express tbe appreciation wbieh we do feel for what ha# oeourred in the various sittings of this Commission in this city and elsewhere and your evident earnest desire to get at tbe basic facts* regardless of where the fact may strike. f hanking you, gentlemen, 1 want to say Just a few words practically in theclosing of our argument.
Mr. record has a few legal questions snd other matters that be mould desire to present to the commission following, and, bo far as 1 am at this tiao aware, this will close the presentation by the Washington fisheries of their argument in favor of the propositions which they have extended.
&SCMKTAKY mmmwi Mr. lowis&n, may t ask you a question before you oome to your llnal statement?
&K. %QWL&Si	fitb pleasure, Mr. Secretary.
1 would be glad if X can answer it.
3ECM3FTAKY EEDFIBLj; What is being dona by the State of Washington in sonnection with the Beala or sea lions?
MB. LOWEA^:	An appropriation has been made, and its
expenditure la provided for in two ways. one# a bounty upon tbs scalp delivered % the other, the hiring by the Fish Commissioner of persons to go and slaughter.
The hair seal, in our present economic system, appears to be without value* Its oil would have to be taken and what is known as fTtried out1', and our plants for fertiliser and oil in this country are of the other or steaming system, therefore we have no method by which we can use the carcass at % hi s t ifiie at an ©xp© nd .11 u re t ha t wo ul d show a y rofit. fbey live absolutely on the fishes,, and during the salmon run it appears t bat they live entirely on the salmon. That, t m y are bare in great quantities is evidenced by the estimates ofthe fishermen up	and down from	the mouth	of the	Snohomish	to
the mouth of the	Skagit River,	that more	tban 10,000	seal
exist In t he seal low waters, of what sight be Galled port 3usan; that the rest of the Sound is equally well populated with them goes without saying, because in traveling with a boat, going where you will, at almost any place on tbe sound, either near the scior^ or in the depth of t be waters9 yon will find the seal always present, 1 think that the seal is so utterly destructive of fish life that such a bounty should be offered as will create an industry for the killing of the semi, which is neither Rood nor fat for our use under our present condition
3ECMETABI HKDF1BLD:	Let me ask you what the bounty is
which is paid in fashing ton?
KB. I0WMJLH:	£wo dollars.
8EGEXT/HT HB2?XEXJ); Are there any steps taken by the trap owners to protest traps against seals, and if so, what?
ME. LOiElH:	All traps carry firearms for the purpose of
destroying the seals t bat enter the traps,
3&C&&ABY B&DJPlBItjJi Do 1 understand	you to	mean	that	there
are men employed	definitely to	shoot t he	seals?
KB. LOWI1ABi the foreman of % he trap, or any man on the trap force, is supposed to shoot any seal that he can inside or outside of the trap.
ShOTihMASI BKBFIEIj:	Is it the fact that sea lions have
been known to get into the traps?PlH. LOWIIAS:	Tbe	seal	and	tbe	sea lion will go in and out
of a trap as you and I would go up and down Second Avenue.
3ECR3TAEY BBBFlBaa:	1 don* t know what you mean by
tbe method as to how 1 got up 3eoon6 Avenue. 2 suppose you mean easily.
MB* lOvrllAH.; With the same certainty a-s to his highway.
38GH8EifcBX Hh.0?lBira Well, is it ihe experience of the trap fishery on t bat sea lions have been found inside thfl trap feasting on salmon?
MB * LOMAS:	Why,	we	have	taken	the®	t	im after time.
Ho year goes by but what we take several of them, and many, many seal. And they have all of the habits ox a weasel.
¥ bey kill many more than they care to or can devour. They seem to have a blood-thirstiness, a desire to slaughter.
CElKf JUSTICE HA2B!:	They	just	take	a	bite out of the
fish, don' t t be y?
ME. 10IMAM:	frequently not so much as that. % have
seen them toss t ‘mm up in tbe air and oat oh them as though they bad been trained in a circus, playing with them,
SBC>iES:AF.T KiaDFlKLD:	And	does	the Commissi on understand
that it is a regular custom in the fishing industry to keep armed men on or near tbe traps for tbe purpose of guarding against the seals?
MB. LOmm:	It	is.
3E0BETAKY EKDFIBTJ):	So	far	as you know, what is done
by the fish authorities of the state with their portion of tbeappropriation?
&R. LOWHAa:	They pay a bounty for each scalp that is
brought to the®, and at the sasse lime have employed on numerous occasions men who were known to be expert shots in their neighborhood to go out, paid so much a day to go out for ten days to certain well frequented localities and there shoot and kill, all of the seals that it was possible for them to do.
3liQ?.W?Mf BEDFIELa:	that baa been done, to your knowledge,
if anything, in the way of at, i&aking the seals by explosives at t be ir haunt sf
MB* LOWlR'AH:	1	have	no	personal Knowledge of that having
been done in t?e »a9hin§ton waters;
BEOEiSf AM BLPP1ELP:	Shat do you know about it anywhere?
!;!* IQIMAn; only rumor. 1 nave been told that it has been done on the British	Columbia	side*
0B1EF JUSSI OS H AMMt	We had	evidence	of that	effect	at
Gloucester.
3mGH>rr.AHI BEDFIBX,.^:	Can	you state what the smount of the
existing appropriation for this purpose a s?
SB. MoOOHD:	#6,000	in 1917,	$6, ‘RRO a	year,	$3,000	of
that was expended on the	Columbia	River and f3,000	on the	Sound
In the Columbia Bi^er $1500 was to be distributed by the Fishery at the rate of $g per scalp, the other to be ext pended un^er the direction of I be Commissioner, in the Puget Sound District the $3,000 was appropriated an* spentby the Fish Commissioner in auoh a way that & he deemed best for the extermination of the seal. That was in 1917.	\n&
that apiropriation, or substantially tbe same appropriation, as I understand it, has been matfe for years. I know it has most of the years.
S&CRJST A5Y	In	view of the fact that £h re is
a shortage of animal oils, and that the price of the same is rated accordingly in connection with it, let me say incidentally that the Bureau of Fisheries is about to establish, for that reason, a ssaall oil rendering plant on pribilof Island; and in vitw of the fact there is a great shortage of leather, and that t he seal is available for both sources, as well as for fertilizer, of which there .is also a shortage; and of the fact that on the Atlantic coast, where the seals ere met with in meases, there is a definite and cons Iderable industry of ttie character, would it be, in your judgment, worth considering that the fishing interests should unit© in a definite effort to see what could be done to commercially utilise these seals?
IB- 1GWMAF:	1	am interested in a fertiliser and oil
plant, and from the education that T have there received, the knowledge that the present plants on puget sound are "steaming", as 1 might call % hem, instead of **fryin§w the plants, i would feel t ast it would &e&n the complete building of a piant to handle that particular product, and that thesupply would be too uncertain to be relied upon as a business proposition* If a si&e issue were made by some plant with the knowledge that the scalping of the seal ^ould bring ^ sufficient reward to induce hunters to make it an
oacupat ion and a bus ines3, t ha two oombined might be a commercial suecess, and undoubtedly would,
3ECB£TAB£ HHDF1KX,):	that	would	you recommend, &r.
lowman, if it were your duty to lecommend to the state of Washington, in view of all the facts —- let us review the facts .for a moment .and 3ee If we have them right* A very serious damage done to the salmon fishing industry in all its forms;t he mpmm& of mainta in 1 ng mtohmen o ©it igate the damage as far as they can; the expense of maintaining a patrol for the same purpose on that side. jfow, on the other side, the fact I hat the leather h&a an unusual value at this time; the fact that the ail has an unusual value at t his ttme —- ay impression is one dollar twenty cents a gallon, something to that effect; the fact that the fertiliser which could be Rsde from the animals has alwa so an unusual value at this time. Saving all those facts ■in mind on both sides, what would you recommend, if it aere your duty to mske such a recotsisendstion, as the best my of dealing with the matter?
MM. LOS'KAn:	1 would recommend the short, sharp and
quick method of protecting trie hundreds of dollars worth of salmon at the loss of s |5 seal, in other words, I wouldrecommend that a scalp bounty of a5 be paid for each and every sear a.alp presented to ta9 Fish Commissioner in cash* wifeb authorit; , if necessary, to &J&J& overdraw that particular account in order that it might accomplish it in the quickest and speediest way. in addition thereto 1 would make such representations to those who are now in the business of these oils and refineries that the bodies be sought for as a raw material, from whence the skin would be stripped and sold, the oil taken and the fertiliser created. B^r the way, I want to say there now, that st this- time, on account of the high price of grains, what was formerly created from fish in tee form of fertilizer, is now very largely used as a chicken food.
SEOME'TABT H1DFXELS:	So	that the su^ ly of fert iliser
is shortf
ME* liOIBNt Is not only short, but made shorter by reason of the feed to cbidkons of fish meal.
, M.MR A MY ItM.#lMMM:	1	will state here lor the record
as a matter that bears upon this case* that a plant necessary for rentier ing 20 to 25 thousand seal carcasses into oil ana fertiliser is estimated by us, in connection with the work: at 1-rib ilof Islands, is estimated at about §B§,000.
It is rather a simple type of plant,-
MB* LO^Kia; More simple than the plant now used in the steam ana hydraulic pressing?3SCP.BSAK BBPPIELI):	Yes.	in	Connection with the fur
seal, tbe question of eating their flesh has long been consider*^, and tbe community on Seal Island has for many years made seal ma&t a definite portion of Sbeir food, and theDepartment has in conteoplation the establishing of a small canningooutfit for the purpose of putting up that meat so that it may have wider use as a aheap article of food. Has the question of eating trie flesh of the hair seal ever been given thought, to your knowledge?
ME. LOWMAB:	1 have	no knowledge	that	it has.
JB CHST A BY BBXMS1D:	Do you know	even	that it	is	edible?
MB. L0IMA1T:	I	do	not.
SiiOHKaABY BE.I)FIKaIm It is very largely eaten up there, and very many white men have eaten it. Is it your belief tbe recomsjendat ions that; you have now made would result in a material diminution of this danger to the salmon?
ME. XfOWAH; i would like to make a rather extended answer to t hat. we have before us evidence which would tend to show that of the	thousands of	apes	laid by	s fersale
salmon, a very few return && adults at the	end of the	four
years. from the time they leave the mother as eggs until they return man cannot be accused as the destroying agent.
As £r. Gilbert says, the stage is set f®r an enormous slaughter, ifcst slaughter, in my opinion, occurs more largely at tbe spawning grounds, find in their immediate vicinity thanat any other one place.
oome twenty years, ago, or nearly so, it %aa not the understanding of the general public that the trout was a destroyer of young salmon or the egg* with Hr. Enfroyd, who at that time was establishing a great salmon industry,
1 showed ? la ana. went with him to a stream from whence we took one trout with more than a hundred insmatured salmon ffc the stomach at t be time. as t bat performance was a cont inuoua one the result can readily be understood. ?be sfciison were of possibly different varieties from the cockeye, but all the s&rce in the res alt. X he re are a hubs and suckers working on % m same beds and t be same grounds.
A trout known as the ’'Dolly Tardenf? trout, and not protected by law in the state of Washington* ia an absolute fiend for the egg, young and immature, of the salmon. It is a constant voracious feeder of the helpless, while tbey are in their helpless sise and shape and condition. 5;hen we could do no more toward protect ing t hem other t ban the-laws me now have, which &re lef.initc, uni II they return
T	/
from their migrations into the sea and on their way to tm spawning grounds, from whence they left four years ago.
On that return again the stage is set, this time men contribute ing»
But the seal and the sea lion are very destructive to them while freely floating In the water, and especiallyso if they have beec caught or impounded by a trap or a gill net. They work on tbam constantly. The number of salmon that a seal will destroy in a day, when they are easily obtained and running in quantities, would almost pass belief. I shall not area lot here how many, because
1	do not believe J would be understood. But the destruction is not alone for the purpose of e&fc'ng, it is for the purpose of playing as well, but the death of the salmon is just as sure,
SKGEETAKY BEBFJ1LR):	;	want	to	ask	you whet h-r we are
correct in inferring fromwhat you say that each of these methods of destruction, the one at the beginning of life and the other at its close, so to speak, are really serious menaces to the salmon industry, and are to be weighed as such in our minds?
UB« LQuMA?:	rany	limes greater than all of the
fishing appliances in all of the waters' inhabited by these fish.
3	a CRal AH I HE I) F X E L D:	A nd w o u Id you r e g arc a oe f i n i 18
sustained effort to deal with both of these matters as a m:ise use of public money?
KB. LOW:	Absolutely.
3aCRasR ■ HY RaI>?IKLI):	And would you regard it as a sound
end wise method of conservation of the food aupjlyf
la-. LOIKAf:	Beyo^d any quest ion.
RO?3JE.CEJ5TAHY RED?1SID:	And as being at once in the
interests of everybody concerned in fishing and salmon canning industry, fro® tbe fishe naan to tbe consumer at the close*;
MB. LOWSULK:	There	cache no question on that point.
SKCPSrAE* REDFlbLD:	£r. !owm& n, ha v e you Interests of
your own in British golumb ia?
MB. 1CW1UF:	1	have.
SeCBBTAKY BEDFISXD:	located where?
MB. LOSMAE; One at the mouth of tbe river at Staunton, known aa the lighthouse Cannery, in which 1 own 50 per cent of tbe stock.
dECKi&ART HBDF1EID:	And have you others?
MB- I-OWWtH; At Jarvis Inlet, some 60 mile snort h of Vancouver, near r&inter Harbor.
BEGRRTAEY HSDF1SOT:	Dan you say, from your own
experience in connection with those plants in British Columbia, that the facts which you have test!fie exist there as well as here?
MB. LOUR AW:	At the south of the Fraser Biver, and
over tbe waters of tbe sockeye fishing grounds, tbe seal
seems to be extremely plentiful. 1 have notice:! that in
oy ootsings and goings by water. At Jarvis Inlet- the does not
same oondit 1 or./esisfes there, probably due to lack of hauling out ground; there seems to be very few at that particular place.R&OaKTaEY BKBP1E&D:	Has there been in the past history
of the State of cashing ton any considerable consumption of salmon on their way to the spawning grounds by Indians?
1,‘H* R.QWM&F:	Hot of recent years. The Indian of Washing-
ton is largely a salt water coast inhabitant, and oomparat ively few of them live inland, and very few of them are longer fish takers. They have also been travelers almost exclusively by canoe, therefore,not h&ving indulged in a quantity to be fed they have not used the salmon of the upper reaches of the water for drying for dog fish as they do in Alaska in some- parts, and 1 believe the game is true in some parts of British Columbia.
SSOHKrARY EEBPIELj:	Did	that	difficulty	at	one	time
exist in iashingt on?
MB. XOSMAT:	-The difficulty that one tim existed in
Washington existed all over the salmon coast. That was the erection of barriers to stop the fish, sake them easy to take in sorse favorite locality, and then fishing all the day beingthe eijil thereof, forgot to remove the barrier, simply don't remove the object and go away, which often prevented the fish going up the streams.
SEQaKTAfTT EEDFIELB: * Was there ever a time when t he taking of fish by the American Indians constituted a problem that bad to be dealt with? what 1 want to get at, if it did, how it was done?
KB. 10WKAF:	Under	certain	treaty	rights	of	waters	the
c\ r”
a i ? ;>
V#- O'shore Indiana, salt water Indians, claimed they bad tbe unlimited and unrestricted right to fish where and when they sa^ fit. It is a decision of our court, if I am not sistaken, and if 1 urn I am sure isr. Mc Cord will correct a#, which found it to be a right coincident with and under t-be same ciroumst&nces as other citizens of the United States, a right that could not be denied them, but under the same rule as that which would regulate the white man. Am l right,
&r* ScCord?
MB. MeCOMB:	lea.
SMOMM'M'-KY KEDPIK.LD:	So	that	the	difficulty	was wound
out in that way?
ME. MOWMAR. They have the same coincident rights without any excessive right.
SEOBKTABY HHPFIKlO:	Yes.	they	cmoie	under	regulaii or;,
Hr. He Cord, in that way?
MB. McODEB:	Yes, sir* They are subject to the laws of
the state the saooe as the white ©an is, t he fishing laws.
3MCEMT a BY EIIJFIELB:	Mr.	lowmar,, would you think it a
wise regulation to cause the sale of salmon eggs for halt for public sale, their exposure for sale i o be prohibited1?
IB. LOWMAF:	I	would not. I believe in the exposure of
saMion eggs for sale, because they oo&e from the butchering house3 where the eggs are otherwise worthless, and each and every one of the© I sincerely h pe will destroy a trout.salmon from the gill net fishermen who fish in '.he river?
MS* LOfilaAT :	The	sockeyes	exclusively	from	that	source.
SMC. iiTAKY KbBFIELD:	Are you personally familiar with
the operations of those fishermen?
Hit. LQTOAJT:	l^ost	certainly.
SKC: MTAKY BBDFJEIJ:	And over ?. considerable period?
MB. L0¥MA!f:	Last	season.
SECRET -BY BEMFIKIJ:	Can you say of your own knowledge,
or can't you my whether it iscommon knowledge that the fishermen from whom you have bought e or others in the same occupation and at the s&ise place, disregard the regulations provide I far the purpose of protecting salmon, or for the purpose of protecting navigation in the Fraser Elver?
13. LOIEAH:	1 would like to consult my attorney before
I	pleaa guilty*
CHIEF JUST1CB HAZKH:	This is a privileged comaunicat ion.
SE2KETAKY HEPflBLa:	Surely	that is your privilege.
LIB. LOiEtAH:	I sip going to answer that question this way.
without any knowledge at this t iise definite as to what fishermen it was or for what cannery be was fishing, I have seen at all times the laying out of the nets apparently without regard to where the- banks of the channel were. I didn't even know there was such a regulation, because we have always considered it with our boats, the wheel not being protected, necessary to enter the river and leave it in laylight in order toavoid fouling our nets on the wheel that we might run over.
1'H. FOITD:	What channel are you referring to?
MH. LO®MB:	The one froa Steve ton out to the light,
the only one that was protected,and that was up and dov/n river under the closed season. In front of our cannery at Steveton there is the channel, and 1 didn't know that there was such a regulation, hecause there was nothing to indicate it in the way the fishermen threw out their nfets. It or*me to me as $ surprise there was such a regulation when 1 heard it CHIEF JUSTICE EA3KB:	The	channel	flows	definitely	from
Steveton down?
MB. 10 fKAH:	Yes,sir,
CHIEF JUSTICE BASEST:	That is the channel that	you	refer	t
fH. IfnMAS:	That is	the channel tuat 1 refer	to.	I very
much dislike ---
SECBEfABY BEDFIKLJ:	It	is	my	faujt	that	I	asked	you*,
CHIEF JUS?ICE EASE#:	We are quite willing to get all
that information from any source. If the law is not being enforced we would Ilka to know it,
HI;. “OWMAH:	Hr.	Chief	Just	ice	Hagen,	I	have	a	horror
of turning State's evidence*
GHIKJ* JUSTICE EASES:	Ho, yon are not* We have had
evidence here, you see, on this side "before from your own cisiz&zl3 about the violation of the laws regarding	the	apron
heing down in the traps,	it is v?ell everything of	that	sort
should come before us.MR. LOWMAN:	But	you	will rave to admit that none of
us turned State's evidence on thet.
I B. OUKD t Wit hout h&ving sny feel in?. of turning state’s
evidence, 1 would like to follow that a little farther. You know there is & regulation rm.de for the purpose of protecting navigation, and is an extremely difficult one to he enfor ad, aad 1 am not suggesting that it sfaouldnlt be enforced. But do you know of any of the other re uilat ionsfor the protection of the fisheries that are "being violated to any extent?
Of course we cave a large	number —
KB. LOWKAH:	You are	discussing, as I	understand	it,
hr. Found, the sockeye fisheries of the Fraser Hiwr onjy?
LB* FQOED:	yes.
MS/ XOWMAHi Therefore I would have to answer no, I do not kno^i of any other violations on your side of the line, lit. 3WEil£:	Are trie channels the test places to catch
the so c Ice ye?	Do they catch the most there?
ML* LOwiliin; That is where I would want to at ring my net. HiOJwTREY EEDFIELD:	low,	!'r. Lowm&n, do you know of any
violations of the lawg of	the state of Waa	ington, or	of	the
United states, on our side of the boundary	protect ing	so eke ye
salmon, or others? if you do, plssee state the©.
CHIEF JU3TICT-; EASEK:	I	warrant	him any evidence fee gives
will not he taken in any way against himself for use in subsequent prosecution.MB* L\)iSliA3f:	I have not known of a single violation,
either by definite hearsay or by roy own knowledge, unless I learned of it through prosecution, for more than two years.
And right there I want to say this:	Regardless	of t; he
unlimited rumors, I Relieve that outside of the Fish Commissioner of the State of Washington I am in ps good or better position to know of violations of the Fishery laws than any man in the elate, and 1 believe 1 state the absolute truth whe n I say that the fishermen of pugat 3ound, oper&% ing traps, and largely operating pur e seines, are as good observers of the law as any class of citizens 5n any occupation in the State of Washington, bar none. I am rot prepared, to say that that was once the truth, but for the last -throe years there has been a spirit of cooperation. Poaching formerly was not considered so much of a crime unless you got caught: but to-day, with the irishmen of Puget sound, it is considered a crime, even if you don’t get caught, and one that you are ashamed of, and there is a general understanding among the trspovmers dnd cannerymen of Roget dound to discourage to the utmost of their ability all violations of law. The absolute necessity of this has become so apparent that they cannot disregard it, and i know of no exception to which I could point at this time, even in private.
SMGKK'rASY HBRFISIj:	Well,	Mr.	lowroan,	in	our hearings
in places on the northern side of the boundary line the rumor, of which you have spoken, wase.spressed several t ^mes to the
iif "I
z 0effect th$t the traps were not actually closed, the aprons were not down always. And in every case where those ex-press ions were made iii* Chief Just ioe Ear en, who was presiding, requested vigorously and broadly that anybody present give definite t.esi inony, if they could sive it, as to the feet s. In every case % he persons said that they had themselves known of actual facts. One man said be would produce sometody that baa], "but he didn't come. I want to ask, however, whether you and, so far as you know, your Reiiow operators, would welcome as an aid and as an assistant, not as having any form of control or no? as an intruder, whether you would welcome any effort that the Bureau of Fisheries of the United states might he able to make in the way of providing a boat, or inspectors * in full cooperation with the approval of the state authorities, to make it entirely evident from an unprejudiced -and, let us say, remote source, that this sort of thing not only did not happen, hut • could not happen; would you welcome such assistance if it were taken?
MB. aOlMAIf; As the president of i he Washington Fisheries Association, and for myself in person, 1 most heartily invite the Bureau of Fisheries to make an investigafcion which will for once and all prove the rumors to he either true or false* And furthermore, that 1 can say that there is no reason whatever why any man in the fisheries business in the State of•8
Y<&shington should take any exception whatever. T r.is is en internatior.? 1 question, because It covers both sides of a boundary line, one that in its broadest dealings must be dealt with by the Bureau of Fisheries. Ghurges, unsubstantiated, it is true, but nevertheless Eerbal charges hive teen made tfcsfc violations of the law we ire occurring to the extent that it estranged the interests of the two sides of the boundary line and were made the basis of mutual charges of bad faith* Therefore I would deem it not only a pleasure to so invi'e, but I am going to go further hnd say I believe it is the duty of the Bureau to investisate for itself and see as to the truth of these statements, I have no fear of the result,
SECRET Rl HEBFIKL33:	How, Hr. Lowman, if in the process
of the investi tation or cooperation suggested on behalf of the Bureau of Fisheries, which, 1 repeat, would only be done in the spirit and in she act of actual cooperation, and in no other way, with the authorities of the State, ar.d for the purpose of aiding and assisting. fern, and in no w&: of replacing or anything of that kind, if in connection with that the majority of the boats, or the men employed by the Bureau of Fisheries for that purpose, were termed so that they might themselves dispose of some seals, there would be no objection on your part, would there?
MB. LCafKAIf; 1 should say not, I will furnish theamaunition.
'dSGf.rif ‘ HY HI-IDFIEL'D:	This	is	a	pretty	impcrtant	subject.
Your belief is, then, that	the fullest opportunity	would
he afforded and the public	sentiment would	a. a prove	to	have
al_ the facts as they were made clear in this way?
ME. rQlMAn; iVe certainly do. We have felt for years that we were &isunder31ood. #fcy, we 3on't know. 11 be-came a fashion at; one time in this state to point to the fish bv-rons and the fish thieves; the two went considered in the one individual* It, was at one time a joke in this state, that if it wasn’t for fete csnners on Puget aound every farmer could go out and knock a salmon off bis gatepost with a pitch fork for fcreskf&st.
3BGIET M Y aEDPISED:	1 thank you very much.
CHIJUSTICE U.S®; I .would like to ask you a question. You 3poke of the natural enemies of the salmon, Mr. Lowman. Are there eels on this coast, in the waters	here?
HE. LOWEA!:	fhers era	a very,very few	of what	we	call
sort of a tfwolf Lead eel" in the outside waters, hut I have no knowledge of them being in the rivers,
OH IBP JUSTICE BAZEWi IT one in the rivers?
MB. DliAI:	Not that 1 know of.
CHIEF JUSTICE BASES’:	T	he	reason	I	asked	the	quest	ion '
was that the rivers on the Atlantic Coast, the eels eat the salmon. The eel operates in this way. Fishermen alongD
tbe river	in the Province of 3t. John,	they	not nets
and Lave to watch those nets as a cat would	a mouse.
When the fish get in the nets they have to move out. If they don't they find an eel has taken possession of the salmon, and it pets down the salmon's mouth or throat, and by the time be gets there there is nothing left hut the skin itself. I thought they might he enemies on, this coast.
UK* L0V»lL4n; The seal does that work here, but he does it from the out si da and .in a different way.
GHI R?	JUdTIGE EASCT:	We hsve the	seal	also. How,	you
suggested	aa a remedy against the hair	seal	and the	sea	lion
------- they are distinct and diffeient animals, I understand, the hair seal and the seal lion?
as a bounty;
LIE* LCatU'T* I would not distinguish them/ I would consider one as equally dangerous as the other.
CHI&3? JUSTICE KASFaf:	You	would, consider them to salmon
one as equally dangerous as the other.
MB. IQWJJf:	I	do.
OlilhF JUSTICE EASE!?:	And do you think a bounty of
have
would && the effect of causing people to make it their business to go out and destroy these seals?
3&E. LOiKAS:	I	do.
CHIKP JUST IOB HAS hi:	With a b unty of £5 they could make
money enough to make it a business and pay them to do that?
214MB. LOmiAK:	They	could.
CHIEF JUSTICE BAS HIT:	And	you think the outfitting for it
?*oul3 pay?
MB. LOWEAlf:	I do.
CHIhF ,7*731103 HA2E!T:	Sow,	is	it your opinion that
bounty should he paid entirely ty the Governments of the respective countries, bearing in mind the fact that it is really for the direct benefit of the earners end of the fishermen?
IRE. TO WHAT?:	Well, by a tax to he taken from the
tax aoney and produced by the salmon fisheries, ana I am a firm believer in the method now used in the States of Washington, fe have the one fund in the dtste of Washington other than tea general fund, and that 1b the fisheries fund. The Fisheries Department of Washington is absolutely self-sustaining, from office help to commissionsre.	Every work
of the business is a charge on the industry. The state of Washington, by general cr other taxation than on the salmon industry itself, contributes not one cent, not even to the postape of the printing of the report.
CHIEF JUSTICE hA.Aitr:	Wall, t ha £ is all yery interesting,
Mr. Lowman, to me, therefore the preservation of the fisheries in the state of Washington doesn't cost; the state a single dollar?
MB. IOWHA-T; And they pay all lhe taxes that anybodyelse pays in addition.
CE1KF JDoflCh HAZEH:	But the money with which the
fishery laws are enforced an the fishery laws are administered is obtained by taxation upon those who are interested in the fishing industry, the c&nners, ---------
:IK. L0Vt}-!A 1:	By 3pao ial taxation.
CHIEF JU3TIGE HASETT:	By special taxation upon the canners
and the fishermen and everybody who is interested in the fisting industry?
KB * aO WHAM:	Ab B oiu t el y, to the c ent.
OHIIF JUSTICE KASisH:	What in their system of taxation
upon the oanners?
MB. LOuTiA!T:	So much per fist of the pack, is pract ic&lly
all of it. There is a fee for the license to operate a gear, then a iur-tax on the result of the operation of that year.
The same is true of purse seine or fish trap* While the cannery pays a tax on each kina and character of canned goods turned out; the wholesaler, so much per ton, and the retailer so taich per pound*
CHIEF JUoTIGE EASE!?; lou regard % be % as fair snd equitable?
MB. Idrn&Bi It has relieved us from an embarrassing situat ion ana m 3 worth t he money.
On IE? JUSR'IGK EASE!?:	When you said "us*, who do you mean?
IRK. LO’&IAIT:	fhe salmon industry.GEL IE F JUSTICE EASHK:	sVbat	wes the embarrassing
situation it relieved ; ou from?
MB* LQWMAM:	That we took the fish ar.d somebody else
paid t La bill.
CHIEF JUafl'Jh HA£M:	That	was	the	criticism	against
you all the time?
UK. LOWMAW:	It was.
CHIEF JUSTICE KAKEn:	And that criticism has been removed?
lit* LQ WAIT:	Absolutely, f e do our own, policing; that
is, we pay for it, vou understand.
GB1KF JUol’ICS hASKH:	Why,	the	canners	and	packers?
MH. MCyiRAn; Ho, the Fish commissioner. But we have to pay the policeman who watches us. It is out of our funds.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAEhTT:	Are	there	some	boats	that are own-
ed by the State of Washington?
MB. LoaKAI?:	Yes, sir.
GhIEF JXJ3TIG3 hASRMT:	And	that	are	used	for	patrol
purposes and for the purpose of enforcing, the laws and protect ing t he 3f: lmon?
MS. LOGMAN:	There are.
<3fcILF JUSflOB UACHa :	And	the	taxes	that are obtained
from the canners and fishermen are sufficient to pay the expense of that, and & 11 other expense in connect ion with fisheries?
91 ry hs) X ftHR. LlRkMA!?:	They	are, and they built the host out of the
same Koney.
CHIEF JUSTICE HASKI:	Now,	take the case of a man who
has a purse seine. ^ow are bis tases levied upon him?
I1K* LOISHAN:	So much for license and so much for sur-tax
on tte catch.
CHILF JUSTICE KASKW:	The	larger	the	cBtch the more he
pays?
MB* LOiHAN:	Yes*
CHIEF -TU3? I OB EASE??:	And is that true in the —-
IRE- T,0W„AT:	'do ranch per thousand fish or fraction
thereof, of the various kinds, a different tax, Reporting on the value of the fish. A sookeye pays more than a humpback, a spring pays more than a ohufcfc.
CHIEF JUSTICE BA2EH:	And how do they pay itB hy their
own reports?
ME* LQithAH:	Sworn report to the Fish Commissioner.
Hot only that, tut every fish that is caught must he sold to get the money.
. lay JOSTICS HAH! And you have a check on it that way?
«:H. LOAilAa:	We bare to report every fish we catch and
every fish we sell, to whom and from. we record every fish we catch and every fish we tuy, and who we buy it of.
OEIi&P JUSTICE MA£j.2*IT; Can you tell me, irr* lowman, in round figures, what tas is collected from the fisheries inthe State? When I say fisheries i raean t be whole fishirg industry.
';f. LOIMAF:	The fishing industry?
CHIKF JUSTICE EAZFJT:	Yes, the fishing industry.
MR. LO.VI iia:	If I as not mistaken, it was f160,OOO
the last biennial.
MR. IIcCOHX5:	1368,000 is the exact amount, as I
remember it, fc r the two years.
1®. LOmiAy:	It is a little more than $160,000 a year.
CHIEF Jy371GB HAZI a:	Was there great objection on the
psrt of the fisheroen and fishing industry to this system when it was adopted?
13. r 0WM1F :	Absolutely notie.
CHIEF JUST IOh KAS&IT:	They recognised the justice of it?
KB. LOWW:	They sought it.
CHIEF JUSTIOB HAZEH:	They sought it. Is there a law in
the 3tare of Washington which requires one who wishes to carry a pun to take out a license for the privilege of doing so?
KR • IOWA!?:	For	bunting purposes, yes; hut there is no
such license required for the protection of tr&pa.
OH IE? JU3T10B HASKH:	yell,	if £ man wanted .to go out and
hunt seals, hair seals, or, say, seals, he would have to take out a license, then, would he? ¥hat would he regarded as bunting?
MB. T0m!Ar:	I don’t think so.CHIEF JUSTICE KAZaH:	Then	it	is open for any citizen of
the state who wants t,o go out and get a sas lion or seal, and there would he no fine	for	shoot ing?
LB. aCV.TIA'T:	Tot that	I knas of.	They	are recognized
as a bounty paid.
CHIEF JUSTICE BAZh?r:	Has	there been any accident resulting
froa that, resulting from people carrying firearms for the purpose of shooting seals?
Mii. r,< Q'w I'.AII:	H one wha t e ve r.
CBi.aF JUSTICE hASLS:	She reason for that is in Brit ish
Oolamb is m 'sere told while the Dominion government paid a
bounty upon ha ir seals and	sea	lions-------not	as ftuoh a	bounty
as you suggested, but a worthy	bounty	--- we	were told	no one
there could c«rry a gun without having a license or permission from some of the authorities of the Rrovince, and there has been some hesitation about granting these licenses, because it was felt it was attendant with a good deal of danger, people firing at these sea liona and seals might very likely shoot somebody that was out in a boat.
HR LOWKA'7:	Mr. Chief justice Baxen, the conditions
are so different >->nd the people aie so thickly settled over the water in handling a 90-foot a ill net, that I myself would consider that if the uneducated as to firearms that I see around dteveton, for instance, were permitted to carry arms indiscr.iminately there would not only be violation of she law
Ras between themselves, but serious accidents fcould not Tut result. But men of known reputation and caution could be permitted there, getting a :ormit without cost,
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZb?:	From your knowledge, then, of the
fishing conditions in British Columbia waters, you think t rat licenses might properly be issued if proper discretion was exercised with regard to the persons to v>hom they were issued? IB. LOSMAH:	I	think so.
Gt IKS’ JUSTICE hAZhN:	A&	a	matter	of fact, would taese
seals come to the crowded sections where there are a great many f1shermon a s they wou1d in t he outer aect ions wher e the r e are not so ®ny?
JSS» L0MA1T:	3 wouldn* t be prepared to answer that.
1 don’t consider 1 know enough of that question to give you a definite answer. Hr, Chief justice,
3ECI11TARY PE3)?lKIu>:	In	the	open areas would there, in
your judgment, be suffixiaht use for men with arms to justify shoot ing these seals?
MR* LOYilriA??:	1 would consider the sand flats st the mouth
of the Fraser iiiver a most likely place to hunt seal, because if the killing is instantaneous by the shock the seal frequently sinks before you car. secure the carcass; but on the sand flats, by dropping a little buoy or so me tu ing over or about the spot, upon the going out of the tide the o&rc&ss could be recovered and a bounty taken for it.ChlhP JUSTICE EAZiSJT:	We had some evidence given over
in Britizh Columbia about wu&t were called "cross line£\ catching seals by means of cross lines.	Do	you	under-
stand teat question?
UB- LOwliAi?:	I do not.
CL-IhJ? JUSITICK HASiir:	Perhaps Mr. Collins or Dr. smith
would explain to you just what this system .is. Would you,
Mr. Found?
o.	?0UP3):	HO, I do not.
CKIKF JUSTICE EASE!?:	Do you, Dr. Smith?
DR. SaHH:	I understand Gross lines used in this
seotion means a trawl line with unbaited hooks, suofc as were used in the sturgeon fishery in various states.
CHIEF JUSTICE EA3BH:	What we used to call tunnel lines?
DB. BHITH :	It is the 0hinese meth>d of sturgeon
fishing with unbaited hooks, with their points fine as a needle point.
KB. IOWMA^:	I want to say I have the highest regard for
the wisdom of the seal,
CB1 hy JU311 01 HAZ'^'J:	You t hink re m i ght keep c1 ear 0f
a hook of that sort,
£3. LOlliAK:	A seal that can learn to go in fill of the
ins and outs of a fish trap in 24 hours wouldn't have to he educated very long on a Chinese line.
MR * KcCOHD:	Mr, Horris told me this morning of sose hoysthat roads traps for the catching of seel and caught 65 in a few days at the mouth of the dnohomish river.
STATEMENT BY J. 0. MOHEIS, HOB. OF !"KE KVRF;RTT PACT I!JO 30/, EV.TRBTT, WASH.
SECKaT/AKY EKRFIELD:	What	is	your	occupation,	!Rr.	Morris?
Mr.. 110HH13:	C anneryman.
SjECRKTABY FJEJFIELD:	Will	you	state	to	us what Mr,
LcGord suggested?
MB* M0EHI3:	I have heard the statement several times
by fishermen that were present at one of iheco other hearings, although he didn't, make that statement at that time, but
the txen up there who constructed this-----------------it was a sort of
a net.	At that	time there was	supposed to	be	a	bounty of
something like §5 on seals. They rigged this	up with the
idea of making some money, and they oaught 63 ir. one day.
When they came to present their scalps for the bounty they were t old that the funds had been used up and there was nothing.
CEIE? JUB7I0K HASSf:	Where	wsr t his, Mr. Morris?
MB* HDRH13:	They	said	at	the	mouth	of the Snohomish
Hiver, near Everett.
CJB1 Mir JUS"' 10 iS 11AZ KV:	?	ha	t	is	in	£	a	s	h	ing t on?
Mia	MOBHIS :	In W&shing.t on.
MB.	LOUF.AN:	When was this,	Hr* worris.	if	l	may ask you?&B. MOBHIS:	This was either three or four years aso.
Chi. f JU JRI Ci£ iiAHKTT:	Row	many ears ago?
I.'sH* 510HP.IS :	Throe	or	four.
ME- LOWl'A'-:	Before	1915.
SliG:.h?IHY K .DPIiSL R:	The appropriat ion for t fcs t year wa8
exhausted, is that the Idea, l’r!, Karris?
:ii. FOHKIo:	Yes. And they gave up the idea of catching
any more, >it hough they had figured out that t hey could make a pretty good thing out of it.
dijGlt^T/iff IlLDi?IBL-/:	Out of the bounty, is that the idea?
HE* IIJHKI3:	Out of the bounty.
SaJhJr 'HY KaDflhLP:	I don*t understand they had fcafcen into
account the commercial value of the seal at all?
MB. aOHHI3:	Ho, they had not.
CHIEF JUSTICE KA&5!fs What was their method of catching them, lir. '.'orris?
t know, other than it a set net with a very Ifrge mesh fend so that they could surround a good deal of water, or area.
MB. IOiS£4T!:	1 know of that case, yr. Secretary, and if
Hr. LQrris will permit 1 will explain it.
!H. aOBBIS:	T	here is just one other thing ] would like to
say, something that has not been touched on at all here, is t he tremendous destruction of fish from the time *{&£ they are spanned until they reach the stage ------------ kmmxs the length of five
M 9 A
hn '~Xor sis inches, by tLe tremendous amount of fish ducks and shags, hell divers. There is millions of those birds, and i think they destroy as many fish as any other one enemy of the fish.
Bracket AH'S P.BDFIEI.j:	Does	your	experience the statements
this morning by l!r. Xowman respecting the damage done to s&lrcon spawn by fish of various kinds on the spawning grounds?
LIH. IIORI 13:	Yes,sir, it does absolutely. In Hr. bow-
man's statement of these hair Beal, the destruction caused by them, I have seen gill	nets that would probably	take	a hundred
or two hundred fish.	The gill	net catches	the	fish	and holds
it, of course, until it is drowned and dead. The seal will come along and start in at one end of that net and go down and take a single bite out of the throat of that fish sion© and destroy for commercial purposes probably 50 or 60 fish; one seal will do that.
3EGEBTABY BKDF1BLD:	Is	that	a f ct within your knowledge,
Er. Uorris?
MB- MOKBXJ:. Absolutely. I bought fish on the Quinaulfc Indian Reservation for	probably	a period of	ten	or twelve
years. Fishing, was all done by	gill nets.	The	seal	wuld come
in from the ocean-------the river empties right into the ocean.
There was a great number of seal there. Those seal seemed to pick out the throat of the fish because of the fact that it is fat. the fat of the fish is mostly in the throat, in thegills, and that appealed to the seal, a tender morsel of the f i sb, and they would take out, that single bite.
31 Oh^fAEY BKDFIELJ :	Can	you suggest whether the apparatus
wbich operated, as you speak at, catching 63 in a day, was one which cost very much?
MR. laOHBIo:	It	didn't	cost	a	great	deal,	no.	It	was
made up of hanging twine; that is, a very heavy line, muoh heavier than the ordinary net is made of*
SECRETARY RKDFIELI:	hell, i don't want to know exactly
the cost, but appro..imately. Would you say it is an apparatus which oost several thousand dollars, or several hundred?
MB. M0BKI3:	I	wouldnim&gine	that	it	didn't oost at that
time more than possibly a hundred dollars. Perhaps this gentleman here f indicat ing) might give you some more ir.forma-t ion.
3TATEKSUT BY MB. I. Q. BALT,* A yi9HKBEAS,
SEATTLE, WA3S.
SECEETAKY BEDFISLj:	Gan you tftll ua what you know about
this apparatus, Mr. Eall?
SO?/ HALL:	Why, this apparatus is a net---------l never seen
this, but I know the formation of it. It is a web, something like a gill net, a salmon net, but it is aade of cotton twine
about 24, 28 to 30-ply. The mesh would be made about ------------- oh,
from 12 to 14, 16 inches, or such measure. It set out justthe 88me as a man sets out a set net. Has a lead line, has a line on the bottom of one edge of it with a lead on it
to pull that down or. the bottom, and a cork lifce with floats
on it. Kaybe the floats would be ---------- well, 1 would judge
for that they would be about a fathom, a fathora &n$ a half, apart, just enough to hold that web up, that big mesh web, and I think, at least at oertain stages of the tide, why, it would be slack ^ater, have nothing much to hold that up, but when the current come in there that is domi there, I don't know what they would do then.
But for the ex terminal ion of the salmon egg, the brook trout, tne river trout, lives practically on salmon eggs.
The fishermen take them eggs and put them on the hook and use them as bait, and the trout will get them. 1 have had t ness jump out of the water and catch that bait and hook.
And the s&wbill duck, it is a fish duck, lives principally on young fish. It is one of the greatest things for the extermination of young salmon that is in the -State of Washington, and there is millions of them. 1 have seen them in droves,
on top, and the next minute you would see them all on top, see them with fish in their mouth.
And now about the seal ---------
minute you wouldn't see ore
SaGKKT;' y REBPIEID:	Just	one	moment
?£E- HA!T.:	I	would	like	to	talk	a	little	on	that	sealoue stion.
Si.CEzT. LI Y Bi£DFIK!IT:	Yes,	1 will give you an opportunity.
CHI P JU371GS HA2K!T:	Are	t^ose ducks protected by the
lews of the state?
13. f.V J :	Yes, duoks are protected.
ohCy^TAhY HEDFIKL- :	Hr.	McCord, won’t ou tell us what
the Isw of the sta e is on that?
IRI.. I'.c 00KB:	1 didn't r*ea r y on.
CEl^F JUiTICB HA2EH:	Are those	duoks which	feed	so
extensively on the young salmon,	are	they protected hy	law?
MB. KlcCOHD:	They are protooted as a closed season, yes.
UK. L0-WH1V:	All water fowl.
ShGhKXABY BKBFIELD:	Go	on	stout	the	seals.
MR. HALL:	Well, the seal, the hair seal, has ® ills
on them, and the skin of the seal is vdry thin leather, and they can't make scything out of that, it is pretty nigh impossible.
So 2 have seen hair seal coats, and they make a good coat, tut to skin that seal, it is just the same as trying to skin a hog, every tit. There is a tit of Mutter there, atout an inch, mayte an inch and a half of pure fat, just like the fat next to the rind of e hog. Their meat is black; they have liver, and heart, and lights, just the same as the hogs* 1 had a little experience	in that myself,	and I	learned
a little experience. 1 wouldn't	eat	one myself,	tut I	have
an Indian, when he would see one he would get after it, and when he got him he would eat him.
31QHBTAHY ESDFI-S&D:	I	don't	think	we	will	have	time	to
S > Q mR Zgo into that.
MB. E'T,I:	Veil,	hold	n	hero.	There	\a	nothing	in	tt
f02 corameroi&l purposes. It s?n't good for nothing.
3TATEEa3IT BY J. H. CHEESY, ATTORNEY, JTHflMJ.
ALASKA.
KR. CH3OT:	I	woaldlike	to ask if the Commission ere-
reived any testimony at their hearings in Alaska on the question of the destruction of salmon fcy the brown hear on the islands of Southeastern Alaska?
dr.Ca^AHY HE J311 MLB:	No, we old not, Mr. Cheney, and
the question of the destruction of salmon came up, as I reoall it, for the first time at Vancouver. %e have, however, in the reoords of the Bepartment, a statement prepared hy Dr.
Lester Jones, then Deputy Commissioner of Fisheries, and now Superintent end of the Dsast Survey, on that subject, dealing with it at quite a length, and illustrated, showing the very serious damage done by the hears.
MB. GEifiHET:	I think 1 have read that statement hy
Kr* Jones.
SBCB.2TABY FJCDPIKLD:	The facts are available.
KB. GEEFJY:	I	simply ment ion it because the question of
destruction of salmon w?;:s gone into here in regard to the hair seal, and I have hunted bear consider bly in Southeastern Alaska, and 1 know the brown bear, which are protected by lawwhen the black hear are not protooted, and arc ..ore disastrous to salmon. They go along the oreek3 and not only eat a great many salmon, hut they throw them out of the creeks onto the tanks.
BY 1&. W* A. LOWAH.
UK. L03HA?T:	Hr. Secretary, if you j.lease, 1 will explain
how that oat oh of seal was taken. A gentleman by the name of E^urkland has certain fishing rights, ^rich constitutes, to all intents and purposes, the mouth of the aelleck Kiver.
At high tide he stretched all the nets he praot ical3.y had of ell kinds across U.e mouth of the slough, let the tide go out and the cat.oh was 168 seals. He telephoned me,
n
as I was buying these fish at that time, end told me to bring a seow to tske those seels and take them to the fertiliser people at Anacortes. 1 called up the people at Ana-cortes ^nd they said they were not handling them as they had no way of drying out the fat.
SECRET 'BY BEDFIBLO: When ires th*t?
MM* ZQWAI?:	T	hat	was	about	three	years ago.
CHIEF JUSTICE EAZES:	166 seals?
MR. LOftHAIf:	168	seals	were	taken	in the one slough.
Vjhen they went there there was a small pool with a little water in and all t he seals were in there, and they were just as easy victims as those on the islands in the rookeries would be in the Sorth. That particular case I happen to
z Ii i}know of because I \\ss dealing with the man at the time.
There is only one question I want to advocate r_ow# and that is this. In connection with all of the things feat have been said here, I want to add this/ I believe we are getting together. I believe *e are going to be the best of friends, we are going to understand one another better.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I believe $hat an absolute embargo at the boundary line on cannery fish, fish for the purpose of canning, should be made, ancl my reason for it is this. It causes jealousy, heart burnings
•	nd let there be a considerable rush of fish anywhere within a hundred or two hundred miles of t he boundary line, t bet news becomes immediately public to the fish fraternity and a general rush is made to that particular locality for the purchasers of that fish, regardless	of the	boundary line,	or i
that locality lies in Canada.
GRIEF JU3TICX KATjLF :	Do	1	understand you speak of the
embargo cit the boundary line to be that American fishermen should not be permitted to buy fish in Canada and bring them into trie United States?
M- . LOWMA.H:	For	canning	purposes.
OKIE? JU-iRl Qli F. * aEn :	Ana that	Cf-.nadi.sns should	not be
permitted to buy fish in the United	States	ard bring	them	in
to Canada for canning purposes*?
RE* ID^liAn; 1 do. Both as a conservation and as theprevention of friction. That Is two reasons of it.
ME. I4COORD:	What	is	the fact now?
I£R. IiO :	The	fsot	now is t hat the American goes into
Canada, if better located, or ra ving a better market, he outbiHs ti;e Canadian or. the fish at his door, which fishermen he has probably advanced moneys to unt il they owe him for practically all that they h^ve. The result is that he gets neither his ^oney nor the fish.	The fish being the more
desirable, it has, in ruy opinion, the last few years caused ciore bitterness between the earners of British Columbia and those of Puget ^ound than ar.y other one cause, and it will continue to grow ©ore acute if permitted. 1 was one of the first to enjoy the benefits of such an exporting and importing, and little realised then what might happen, but t he conditions that have since arisen making the prices of what was formerly low grade fish high the world over, as well as in the southern part of the United States, have made an entirely different problem of it, and one that should be stopped in !?he interests, as I said,before, of the industry^
IRIu l.oOOKD:	Is there any law of Canada, f.’r. Found, for-
bidding or restricting the exporting of fish, of salmon, into tr.e United 3tai.es?
KB* FOUUD:	Hot	other	than seckeye.
SiiCr.H'T AH* BED.FIBIO:	30 eke ye salmon are pros ib i ted?
MB- JPQUJfD:	Have	be	on	for many years, exporting of salmonin the raw state.
MR* i'oOORD:	There	is no restriction on the 'pritieh
Columbia man importing soakeye salmon from t r.e United States into Canada, is there*?
MR. ?OUFD:	$o. Tbere wee at one time.
MR. McCOKD:	But tbere is none now?
MR. F013HD:	It	was	stopped.
MR. y.aC0;;:D:	That	is	the law now?
13. FOOT):	Yes.
LR. aOvvKAM:	T	here	is a duty, is there not?
MB* FOUFL:	There	is a duty of one cent a pound.
Just one question. i/hat is the case tax in Washington states KR. L0#MA;T:	I	was	going	to	allow	Hr.	Mo Cord, who is
going to rea<3 various sections of the Code, and tbat will be better evidence than what I could say.
DR. 3MITE :	I would like t. o ask Hr. Lowman as to the
source of any fund whioti the iitate of Washington may have for the operation of aalser. hatcheries?
. M. 10..1IA:?:	Its	general fisheries fund. All the
income from all of the sur-tax^s, special taxes, licenses, fines, and so forth, of the fisheries fund, zo into the fisheries fund, from whence all the department's hatcheries
office patrol are pa i 0.
£H. 3' J.RM * In other words,, the fishery interests of
Washington support the salmon hatcheries?50
KR* LOMAS:	Absolutely,	end	should	he	made	to	do	so
in British Columbia.STATEMEBT BY la’H. M, G. UUT1LY,
SECRETARY 07 THH TELIHEBT PACKTJ3 CO, ,
PORTLAND, ORRCOM.
RRR# ttUTTLY:	1	an	interested	in	the	packing	business
and 1 have practiced law. This being a free for all discussion, 1 thought it might he well to say, Ur. Chief Justice Hasen, there wm a run of eels in the Colunbia Biver. They are in the Willamette River, which passes by our city of Portland, and the run is so important that there is established at this time -atGregon City, below the Falls, a rendering plant where the eels are taken and oil wrested from thorn.
CHI!!? JUSTICE; EAZ3H:	The	eels	are	not	used	for	eat*
ing?
ME* MIRCLY:	1	don't	know	whether	they	are	edible eels9
but they are treated for the oil and for chicken feed and fertiliser. It has got to be a considerable industry#
Whether those eels go up the Columbia Hiver to Kingston, or whether they are confined to the Willamette Hiver, 1 am not' positive. Whether they are destructive of the salmon spawn 1 am not clearly advised* 1 haven't heard anything in that connection.
DR* SMITH:	1	would	like	to	say,	Vr,	Chairman,	the	eels
to which Judge Manly refers are not the eels in the sense th -t Judge Kaaen used the term. These are "lampersn, .hich are not even fishes*
S2CJIETABY ICOFXjRld:	Bnt	they	accomplish	the	result,1 suppose?
UR. MUHLY:	1 thought it rould he inter a ting to the
Chinf Justice to know that.
OHlaT JUSTICE UAZm:	Yea.
SHCR32TARY BKI-I'ELDz *!r. McCord, /ill you kindly proceed now?
7URTKKR S!2Ammi aY Hit. E. S. McCOIO.
113. McCOFD:	1	have «ery little to say. 1 /ill in-
troduce for the benefit of the Comission a pamphlet showing the "Fisheries T/aara of the state of Washington, that is, the fishery laws .as embodied in the Fisheries Code which was adopted by the Legislature in the year 1915• There have barn .lust a few amendments* but they are iismaterial, and 1 will file with the Secretary a email pamphlet. 1 think ¥r. Chief Justice Hasen would particularly appreciate and enjoy it, becaus e in that there is an answer to a great many of th quest ions that have been suggested to date* We have a. long list in Section Jl of that Code where licenses ^ for al?xa;t every conceivable thing connected with the fishin business. Por each pound net, $$0; different, varieties, graduat®d amounta on the Go1umbia Hiver. Then for seines, $2% if it is 1800 feet in length, and so on down the line, When you come to canneries it is four cents a case, and in come instances on the Columbia Biver fiy» cents a case for Chinook salmon. But the actual salmon is supposedto reach about y200,000 a year. It in not used directly under our ays ten for the support of the fisheries, but every ye .r for the last fiften or twenty years the committee on appropriations, after a pretty full investigation, estimates the amount c f the revenue from the fishing industry, and it is the policy of the Legislature, and has been fo • years, for the Legislature to appropriate out of the general fund of the state an amount equal to the estimated amount of the revenue cl rived fron the fishing industry. So the Legislature is very jealous of that and would not appropriate very much "ore. Sometimes it goes one way and sometimes another. On one cocac ion 1 Imow the appropriation fell short of the revenues by some $$0,000 in one year. She canning people, the fish people, are also jealous to see that the money that they pay ir? appropriated for the development of the hatcheries and for the enforcement of the laws and for the general uses and purposes incidental to the fishing business.
So far a a the subject -?hi ch has been under discussion this mo -ninr is concerned, as to the natural enemies of the fish,
1 f ird in the fish code Dolly Vax&sntrout is picked out as an outlaw, ought t© he caupht at all times.
Another prohibition is that vou must not pollute waters of the state hy throwing in salmon heads and entrails, things
o	that kind,
And another one that has not been mentioned here, but has been found to be very disastrous and detrimental to thefinhing interests, is tho sawdust from the saw mills that roes into the r*ter and gets into the young fish particularly and kills then.
CH1I3P JUCi'ICE lUZm:	You have laws prohibiting that?
MH. Mccoro:	We have a law absolutely making, it a
misdemeanor for anybody to put sawdust in the waters of tho st ite.
SECRETARY KZJVXMZ):	Mr.	McCord,	in	that	connection	1
think you probably heard in past history of the Kennebock salmon?
KR. VcCCIO:	Yes.
aECRHTARY mcmrSLUi He still appears on bills of fare in hotels that are aggressive or no re enterprising than others*
MR, Me CO HU:	Yes.
SECRETARY RE^IBXD:	Because, as the story goes, "thei'e
aintt no such animal * as the Henneheck salmon. There used to he one, and the lumber industry destroyed it.
UR. UcCQPZ):	Yes.
S2CHKTARY BKjPIELS:	The sawdust in the river and the
dams did away with Kennebec salmon. It was one of the mar.nificent streams, but it has gone.
MR. lie CORD:	Of	course,	under the system of operating
the saw mill now ©very mill, realising the danger of putting the s a/dust in tho water, constructs burners and bu Tns it up, which is another waste, but it is bet tar to waste it that waythan Jo destroy the fish.
SECRETARY KEDF1M D:	It ic not a double waute.
MR., IfcCOIO:	Ho.	Then another matter, not as to
soclceye 3 ,lr>on particularly, but it shows tho extent to which the Legislature of the state of Washington has tried to go for* the preservation of the fish interests generally. It has practically closed all of the streams of the state, with one or two exceptions. And in Tclaatern Washington re have an irrigation country where you have a great sa&ny irrigation d itch os and canals, and fish will get into those, and .s the ws,ter in turned off in the canals they will die by thousands. And th: last Legislature, or the Fisheries Code, made it a misdemeanor to operate an irrigating canal without putting a screen at the entrance, intake, so the fish couldn’t pet in. And 1uildina improvenants, dam cites and power development in the .• tate, it mde it a misdemeanor to cut off the fish, or, rather, required them to construct fish ladders so they can get around them.
CE112? JIB - ICE HAZW[:	:>o you -mow ?hat success they
have had with these fish ladders?
a?. McROlO:	1	understand it has been very successful .
In jone places it is impossible. Take, for instance, on the Baker River. There the dan goes in— or take the Bnopualmie. You can't build a fish &a<£der up a hundred or two hundred feet straight over.
CIZIlT JliaT'IGE KAZEH:	H^ve	you any instance ./here afish ladder has been uccessfully Operated where it has been over 40 feet?
Ti.	Me C O	:j:	I	think	about 38 feet has be n successful.
1 Con ft	'or:- her	any	any higher than that. But here is
what the	laws	of	the	c-tate	provide on the question of these
fish ladders*	If a	power	company wants to develop a power
site and close up a small stream, or river, and cuts off one c r the state’s fish hatcheries, or ',/here the Taish Commissioner would do; ire to locate a fish hatchery, or trap, or anything else, why, they can't close up that stream unless they settle with the Fish Commissioner and build him a hatchery below it. And ever 'thing has been cone that re can think: ef progressively to protect the fish in this state.
Vest of "hem are embodied in this law. Hhile this copy I have is pretty badly marked up 1 will substitute a new one so you can have it.
8^0PJ?.TAEY BEUttBO:	Sometime	the	latter part of the
day.
&R. McCOIO:	Tea. I have one in ny office. 1 didn’t
kn- this t,ne was so mutilated. But that is what we are t. “’ir-ip mo do in this state. 1 simply malce these preliminary remarks to show that m have been trying on this i&e of the international boundary line to destroy the effect of these natural enemies.
The seal question has bean discussed, and, 1 pra sumo, with the people in Canada* 1 don't know. 1 was unfortu-nate and was unable to attend the hearings at Vancouver or ho// Westminster, but I hope and assume they have taken similar steps on the other aide, or will take similar steps.
MR. ROM 1j:	They have. They have boon working on it
for years.
Mil. ficCO O:	We	have	been	trying	to	do	the	same	thing.
1 have a little more to say. -r. Darwin, the Mich Coriaais-sioner, has his office force at ;/ork, arid 1 don't know whether hr* has completed the statistical information the Secretary asved for the otMor day, but it will be handed to you during the day.
SBC Rax ART BKUPIKLU:	1 want to ask you about one mat-
ter, Mr. McCord, and get your judgment upon it. It has seemed to She CoEtnission, 1 think, that with all these purported facts which have come up in every one of the cities /here this .particular matter has been discussed there is a lack of definite information on a mutter which everybody is interested in, and interested substantially alike. I&vxt is to say, upon the time taken, lack of information as to the tiwo taken by fishers to pans through the Straits and the Sound and up the Fraser Paver to a definite point* It seems to mo unknown e:cactly as to what the time is, though everybody seems to recognise that there is, of course, a period* in matter oh came up in regard to the sea lions, a corpse ./as .d opted by the Bure s. u of fisheries which de to r-mined and settled for all times a very serious dispute ^hichnight have involved the interests of four or five nations.
The question in connection nih the fur seal was as to whether Rhe :ize of the animal was a definite indication of hi3 u£©, because 1 believe it is allowed th t certain seals of a certain length s/ere or were not either two year old
o	' thrc.f year old, in accordance as the skin was of greater or lesser lengthqp ,n& th ,t w s an accurate basis for determining
1, She
under a certain age must not he killed* To get that fact determined five thousand seals were mrlflfd by the Bureau of Fisheries ami ’-'ere allowed to po hack to sea again, and were so marked that they could re identified on their return, were id-nti ied, as matter of fact, and tho conclusion d-finitely established that beyond all enaction and settled*
The Commissioner of fisheries, Dr* Smith,, tells me that it is entirely feasible for the Bureau of 'Fisheries, in cooperation with the state of Washington and in cooperation with he lutho *itic3 of the Dominion of Canada, or British Columbia, tc establish a fishing apparatus, or tc util.tse’ one already es tablished., at the entrance of -the Straits, or at an internediary point, or at % point up the ¥ruser River at /hioh fish can be captured alive and definitely marhed, so that 'f-en later caught the emct period cf iirm elapsed between first marking and the later catching can he established, They informed me that it is feasible to do this, not as an
24
oart or incidental manner, but as a matter of thorou h scien-tilic investigation and determination. Ho-;, 1 want to ask you, assuming that rjtatejient to be the correct one, and assuming also that the investigation or inquiry thus made were done in the open, not only ith the knowledge of ail of the authorities of both the state and province and the Dominion and of tho nations concerned, but subject to the knowledge fuiiy of all interested parties as to the actual facts, if th I .auid| in your Judgment, constitute, provide*, it were properly done, if that would, in your judgment, constitute a valuable •ontribution to the knowledge an to how this industry might best be conserved?
Ya# McCOID:	1 think I can answer unhesitatingly in
my judgment that 'would he a very valuable contribution*
And X make that statement as naming that it can he done.	I
don't know whether it can ir not, but we will take Dr.
Smith's word for that. But X ml® this reservation, because it is a matter p,en rally understood on the Sound, ah ether correctly or not, that the fish sometimes will play around different points before they go aiom, but it approximately takes about a week, seven or eight or ten days, to get up to the boundary line after they pass into the Straits, as 1 imd o rat and it* Bib t ;kin& this p.. an of marking, the fish and check that with the plan of comparing the bead at different joints on the Sound and the Fraser Hirer, take the two together, and from ih*j two it would seem to me that yousight form corns sort of a practical certainty as to the time it takes for them to run. 1 think the suggestion of ue ing it as cu].pi©mental to the he ,d system computation of figuring it out would ha probably all right.
SSC-V:JTAKY BK/T1KLD:	1	rould	like to ask Dr. Smith if,
in his judgment, hie Service would h prepared to undertake ouch an inquiry, viah the understanding "hat it was dona rith the approval of and in cooperation with the authorities whom 1 have racetinned?
DR. ' 1TB:	'ie -hoi Ld	ho •/>	ry /j,aad to undertake. such	an
experiment, and we culd re	in ...	position to take it up at
the : roper time*
•JR. ^c£X*HD:	Tt	would	seem	there	i	j	to	be no objection
upon th: part of anyone in trying to ascertain was,t the facts are. It appeared to >©, Dr. Smith, that there ought to he a t "ap taken down at the entrance after the fish coma into the Str -.its, somewhere down the Sound, and another trap our-rR to he at least near the international boundary line, so that vou can turn the fish out that are c .Ught Just before they rat to	the rraser	River -and gee how lonp it takes
them to ro up the	river, and	with	.a similar allowance for
marking them farther down the Sound to sea how long it will take them to ret into that river.
DR. SHr?K:	This	experiment, if done on an officially
larre scale, re will say, involving many thousand salmon of the various species each year, or one year, or for a scriesof reart| as rai&h* be determined upon, /ould afford, it seeas to rot vory valuable inf- motion as to the percentage of survivals of fish that pet beyond the net fishing in the Vrasor River*
UcCO O:	The	practicability of it seem to me to
be nanifunt and a u 1,1 not he expensive to ycnr department.
We rohrs tract ox\t ' ioh traps, and daring the weakly clcsod 35S3on of -hie ye: r the two governments, for scientific pury-so , could utilize some trips -already constructed daring the closed season and take then out and m)ce a test of them :	••in-’ that tisw.
!iH. SMITH:	In	other ?ordst it would be unlawful for
these fish to he in the traps anyway* and if found therein tn?y mi/pit he used for this exp & rime nt?
MB* IfoCCi-D:	Just let them fish duriar the closed
season for scientific purposes. That has been done in the state.
fjarOhiRRRRBY laCJPXJKDt In other words* the government can't hreel: the law if conducting an investigation:-of that kind far soien -ific purposes.
Hi** ScntrO:	The-	Iwm of ah:- state of Washington pro-
vide '.R-pv can he tak-n at any time for scientific or govern-ment ■ 11 purposes *.ii\rrir:rTT by hh. t. j. gokmah,
A SALEOTI CA’"‘‘ \Rt 3EAOTLB, WA3K.
1£R* GOKIIAK:	You	are referring to taking these fish
at the entrance of the Straits. Vou are apeaking of the sockeye salmon, 1 take it?
S3SCR :?AHT H3CJP1ELD:	Yes .
SIR. COMMAM:	Th^t	is	impractical.	It has been tried
repeatedly to put	trap;	at	the entrance	or	anywhere in or
alenr the Straits until vou arrive at the traps operated out f Victoria.
Mil. Mc'-ORO:	That	is	what 1 mean.
VTx. GO	That	is	the f irst place	you could take
the fish, and they -rould have to be taken in quantity, and tVwn, of course, it is seme, 1 think, seventy miles, seventy or sevo ii y-f ive miles from the entrance to the Straits to the first luccessful operating' traps ju.it of.f "he .a:ore- of Yancouv** er Island.
How, another thing with the sockeye salmon, they don't folio?; the American shore until after they leave Vancouver Island. In coming in from the Straits they hug the ,-hore of Vancouver Island all the way, so there are no traps on the American aide until you get to Port	.	All	the
fish coming in, they follow the Canadian side, and the first opportunity you gat to take those cockeyes would he from the Victoria traps, and then, of course, you could iollow them up threw h the Sound, th*curh the American traps and on upto the ?ran©r River. 1 just wanted to put you right on that mtter.
mJR*	MU1TK:	1 -rould like to	*sk r.	Goman if, in	his
Judgment, it ~ould be feasible to	take salmon for these	exper-
imental purposes in any way?
■a, GORMAK:	Oh	yes. You can take them—
Iffi* SMITH:	At	Gape flattery 3ay?
MR. GORHAlf:	Ho,	not at Cape Flattery. They catch no
.;ook yao at Cape Tlettery.
DR.	:iU¥xK:	Well, any other	species	of salmon?
Ra*	GO."'AH:	Yes. The seine boats	are going out	now
thirty or forty mile® beyond Cape Flattery, but they are catch inf; coho, v/it h some hwapb&cka, but no soekeye.	There
wouldn't Ra one-half of	one	per cent	in the catch, and	it
is not practical to pet	the	seckeyes	until you get off	the
Victoria traps. But it in possible to take them al.ve from the traps and ret ran then to the water.
MB, HcOOIO:	You	can take them from the tr-.\ ps„ but not
f -E*a:	the	seines.
3EBCRV1MRY KKUFIETD:	Yes.
MR. Mc^OIO:	fhert- is one further natter 1 s/ould like
to touch on, and it won't take me very long.	I have &1-
ro >dy taken too much time. But after all, the thing that both gove a^nents and both peoples are interested in is to get about fifty per cent of	the	fish up the Eraser'River.	It
would be aim ortunate if	no effective	result was Accomplishedby this Commission.	What aver may lead to the assurance
of the passage of fifty per cent of the fish /ould seem to we ou "it to be satisfactory to both sides of this controversy. It lias occurred ao the American fishing interests, from ./hat examinations they have been able to mho, that there ought to be a graduated closed season of five days more in British Columbia than on the Amorican side in order to allow the fish to pass through the Vraser Kivsr md reach their spawning r rounds. This investigation and the discussion of the matter has demonstrated, 1 think, that nobody can tell at the present time, with the present knowledge ohly, approximately how much time would he noOessary to insure the passage of fifty per cent of fish through the Eraser. So far as 1 am perron .IRy concerned, and 1 think so far as the interests on this side of the lins are concerned, there is no disposition or wish to do anything that is unfair to the Canadian interests, or to the people of Canada, or the fishing interests of the Fraser River* All that we are interested in is to see that sufficient time elapses between the tine the fish reach the international boundary lino so as to carry them up to their spawning grounds throw, h the Fraser, If that time is five days it may be that is the view we take of it. That can be demonstrated by the experiment suggested by l?r. Smith and by the Secretary. It night develop that that time was too long; it nigh' develop it was too short. There is no reason, no pood to be accomplished bythis Commission adopting a course that 70u.ld not effectuate
the result sought, that is, to f,et fifty per cent of the fioh buck. What ?ver that time ia it seems to no to be very import ant in adv nee. If it i a possible fo * this Commission to determine what length of time, if any, is necessary
to pass the fish on up through the Fraser IUver after they onded our closed season, that fact can be determined, then it ,'culd sestet to me the Canadian people olight to he just as much interested in it as we are in seeing they go hy, and 1 have no doubt '.hat '.hay are.
1	hope th .t these investigations, through the comparison of the peak systems, and the rivers, and on the sound, may enable the Commission to ascertain what the facts are as to the time necessary to insure the passage of the fifty per cent of the fish. And it may be that if th..t can he determined the stumbling block of the five days additional season can be cut down.	But, on the other hand, it my he necessary
to lengthen it.	Of course, that is a matter to he determin-
ed by th facts.
3R!C-'M?aRY PJDVIRlhD:	A	matter	of	scientific	determina-
tion.
' -a. MccOaD:	Yea	sir.	How,	right	in this connection,
before 1 close 1 want to suggest this view of the matter to .he Commission, and Rli -,t is that if both the state government ana • Y federal government undertake to legislate with regard to the close season on Hio so eke ye .-aimon, it sterns tcme th-t rhichever governnent controls ihould have exclusive jurisdiction and oxlusiva control.
The people engaged in the c inning and fishing inderests on Puget Sound are interested in two things. The people of the . t : .,c cf Washington are interested in wo things.
First, as citizens of the stats, in producing i revenue, taxable p ‘operty, people engaged in the enterprise, the vast amount of money that is engaged in it, probably t?enty or thirty million collars invested in the state of Tfishington, and people that are dependent upon that for support.
It has been not an easy matter to bring the American fishermen all in harmony on the th cry of a closed reason from the 20th of July to the 1st of August. It is the desire and hope of the people of this state, and the fishing interests particularly, that some solution will be arrived at by this Commission, because of the necessity of conditions surrounding .us.
IToa, if you, in order to get this consent on the part of he people, engaged in this enterprise in order to do something that will he in harmony with the public opinion of the state of Washington, and in order to induce the government of the state of Washington and its government
oi	facials to get behind this treaty and this arrangement,
./hieh I hope -;hoy will, re want to do something that will in ure her not the destruction of the industry,, but that will preserve it -and increase it and rehabilitate it.Ho •/ then, we etart out >vith this feory, with the consent of the fishermen on this side to cut out that t«n days of fiohing to start with, approximting , an we sincerely believe the figu os demonstrw.te, fifty per cent of the run of salmon thmorwh thene waters* When that ie aone /e feel that a definite policy is settled, to let fifty per cent p,o by and the other fifty per cent are subject to catch in every way and any way that it is permissible to do so under the laws of -.he state and under the laws of British Columbia.
We have fait that if Rifty per cent go by, and are absolutely assured of reaching the spawning rrounds, that is a sufficient projection to the fish to ultimately rehabilitate this industry. Practical y the other fifty par cent, some of them, v’ould go by anyway, but they ought not to be hampered and restricted by other closed seasons either at the instance of * he state of Washington, so far as our interests
•	re con corned, or British Columbia, or the Dominion of Canada, so far as the fishing interestts over there are concerned.
1	feel thnt 1 am expressing the opinion and the desires of ninety-nine per cent of the people on this side of the international boundary line .‘/hen 1 say that we think this mat.tar our.ht to be conclusively settled and determined in this treaty, bo that it *ouid not bo left open for future political effect on either aide of the international Boundary line to r.ske further rsd other regulations as to the remainin'/ h If oi th* fish th.it are left* We have a-illinglysurrendered one-half, or offor to surrender one-half of the other. Up rou d like to have it permanently fixed during the life of this treaty, no th t it might ba finally seer tamed and doterninen whether the results cour.ht lor will he ac-coral lished. And 1 feel that this Commies ion ought to provide that this	closed season from	the	20th of July to the 1st day
of August	inclusive sh\ uld	ho	in	lieu of all other weekly
closed searons, or any other seasons, on these rivers.
MKC	;a;-.RY I'JDT’i -;ld:	On	the basis of its providing for
fifty per	cant of the fish	to	/■ o	to the spawning fpreunda?
‘■R, MeOO D:	Yes.	You gee, as an inducement, as an
argument, people that 1 represent in part, we a asure them th t if you get fifty per cent by that will rehabilitate in a little longer time thn if all went by, and they agree to that. Then th^y want to realise and feol that their investment commercially and economically is progressed during he life of Rhe treaty. 1 hope that before you, ;f you do, re ‘.ch a conclusion looking towards the settlement of this great- question, that you .vial realise the interests of men engaged in the business as well as the fish and as well as th-: interests of everybody in the propagation and reliability ion of the industry, so that the thing would be settled politically, settled lor all time, or 1 o" the time during the life cf t; e treaty* And 1 feel that it is lair to British Columbia that their canning interests should be treated in the sarm /ay and not leave the question open* 1 don't knowvery much about their laws and their ftoverrmient.	1 feel
that both aides ought, when this tr<' ty is passed, realise that this i.> the complete legislative action for ten years, or twelve ye .rs, or eight years, or whatever the number of years may he, is settled definitely, there will be no more chanc.es, no m re closed sea.ions, during that 'period of Mme.
And 1 f e n 1 that the popularity of the law, the effect upon the public opinion, -ill he of very great ./eight if this wholo matter is taken under the controlfso far as the closed s-a-on is concerned, of this inter-national Fihkeries Commit ion that -./ill • e appointed,, as 1 take it, to administer it.
7hat is about ail 1 have to say on that subject. 1 any have said this the other day, but 1 think; it is worth while to re iterate it now, because we want to mate this thin*', a .access. If adopted 1 feel that should ho included in there no that men won undertake to legislate in regard to the closed season vou should make that in lieu of all of a r closed seaaon and fix whate ver t ime you pieaso, but let uo hnow ’here we are for the tine of this treaty.
And 1 -ant to tharJ: the Cossai i£~ r for listening:	o	me
so many times an ing this controversy* 1 appreciate the e^rnestnes.: ano farmers of the members of this Commission in pomp into this question as deeply anek -s thoroughly as tin y have, and 1 hope sincerely that nomsthing good will cono of it no th- t sorae plan be adopted that will mean the re-habilitation of this groat industry, 'hioh weans 30 much for
tho state and lor the nation ana for the p«oplQ /ho are interested in it.
SBC . T HY RKJV1 ;l:j:	Thank	you,	Ur.	VcCord.
R-. McCOiO:	Anything else a • I to ask ne?
MR. UESBAPATS:	Mr.	McCord,	as	1 understand, your
purpose is to institute a continuous close season of t•n d-ys, or such time 3 may be necessary in which to allow fifty per cent of the fish tributary to the Tracer River to pass all 1V-? .-wy from the 00a to the spawning grounds without lading caught?
MB. McCOFO:	Yes.
'"'M. DK3BAHATS:	After that you propose no further
restriction?
MR. Me COIO:	‘STo.
MR. DE3BARATS:	You	would	allow	as intensive fishing
to proceed as possible as conditions would allow?
HR* McCOIO:	Yes.
RhR. DJvCBABATS:	Under	those	conditions	you would allow
a free passage for th-) fish from the sea to the upper Fraser lor a certain time, fifty per cent of the fish would pass by unohst rueted?
}*?.. h'cConu:	Yas.
MM. 1XSSBARAT3:	Aft	r	that	the	intensive fi.-hing
which -sulci result n the American side of the line mightvsry well have th« effect of preventing any fish from reaching the Eraser IUvor?
VR. UoCOIO:	>"o, 1 don't think so. X don't thinlc that
would be possible.
'at. DKSBaRATS:	Well,	1	moan pr actically any fish?
IfH. McCOIO:	'To,	1	don't think so.	Because	even	now	a
gre	it rrany fish go	by.	You can't catch	them all.	1
think that a percentage, a considerable percentage, of the othor half, the remaining half, would go by in spite of obstructions we ouRd attempt to place on then down here on this side of the line. There are two things we have got to consider in thit connection; the gear, as the fioh have ba :n falling off,will not ha put in, you	will have	less	gear
■	f Puget Round t	'on now on	M .
have had for years to come.
ME. D3SBAKATS:	Why	so?
MR. McCOIO:	Because	it	doesn't	pay.	There	are	just
30 many fish* That rill reduce the number of purse seines and the number of trips. !S*or instance, this year not half of t.M- tr pp or purse seineu will be used as last year.
P.. 1)1RRRARATS:	That	was	because	last	year	was	expect-
ed to be a big year?
Ma. McC’OIO:	Yes. And this year there are not very
nany expected, and the men go to Ala.:lea, and the Columbia River, and go elsewhere, sc a~ percentage of the others go by.
•w> r r*MH. DR; PA RATH:	1	want	to make the point, Mr. UcCord,
it wouldn't be possible to i lit in any regulation which fould have the partial effect of shut ing out the Vrader River
f iaheraen?
MR. ?JcCOMj:	iTo, 1 don't mnt to do that.	My view of
it is thio, that we want to preserve the Eraser Hiver just as fairly as our own, but we feel that in o I'd r to get fifty per cent by there ought to be a graduated closed season on the Pranor River so that they will get up, otherwise it */onfJ malre much difference, bo far as the industry is concerned, which side catches then, "because they will be destroyed beyond question.
HR. D3SBABA73:	Conceding	that point. That point 1
am conceding. 1 am asking on the other part of it, if during the remainder of the fishing season the fishing on Puget Sound is allowed to be as intensive as possible it mif'h very well result in practically preventing any fish f 'on reaching the Vraser Hiver,
CHl’iTF JUSTICE H4ZEH:	His proposal was the nunber of
traps in Puget Sound sho Id not be increased.
Ma. McCORO; Certainly.
CK.11CF JJ.RR1CK KAh. IT:	There is to he no increase.
Mx. D2SBAR.ATS:	1	didn*t	understand	that.
GSCnXw'dT/	Oh yes, that is understood.
-RR. McCGRD:	1	thought	you understood that, they are to
be kept as they are*OKI:* JUSTICE: IZkZSU:	Yes,	that	is What 1 understood,
there should be no increase.
MR. McCOOj Yes.
h’H. 'OITO:	Th^re is just one point that 1 aould like
to isk Rr. HcCord fo ' information on. In regard to this fifty per cent^b&s the approximate number of 113h that now ret up during the weekly closed siason throughout the s ason bo m kept in wind? because after all there may be a very con.iderable proportion of that fifty per cent now geating up. If you are f.oinr, to do a r*y with that you are not giving it th' d van tar e 'ou think.
TO. UcCO O:	Yes, 1 think it is taken into considera-
tion. If you don't cut out the closed season then the effect ?ould be, 1 am afraid, and 1 think my fears are ;;ell founded, both on the Canadian Bide -and on this side, that it will not pay	commercially to operate	the traps.
We ?/ant	to do two things, as I	understand	the	policy
of this Commission. “First, preserve the fish; second, let it be operated so as to sustain the industry in a crippled condition, if you will, but if you take out one-half of it and then take out the weekly closed season, then you haven't let enough to justify the operation of the cannery in the expending of	any money in putting in	your trap,	or keeping
your organisation together, and 1 an	afraid it will	simply
put both sides of the line out of business, /hieh we don'tSECTV •?ATtY KEUFlK'lIi:	But your proposition, in all its
forms and in ov rv phase, is based upon and ic contingent upon the a lo./anca of fifty per cent to get cle .r through
to the head waters of the Vraser Hiver?
i:b. UcCOall:	Yes	sir.
crCRRMYCiY RRDV1 RLD:	And whatever brings that about is
your purpose?
UR. McCORD:	Yes	sir.
SECKRTAHY RjEDFlKTO:	%ether it he one day or a hundred
days, or half a day, or no day?
U- . VcCO D:	If you should close the Fraser River above
the 7Tow Westminster bridge, then it makes no difference about the closed season beyond; but if you do not close the fishing do in entirely at the Westminst r bridge, then I don't }:now enough iho't -he facts— 1 hope vou developed them at Vancouver, and Mr. Pound and you scientific gentlemen mow vhat sort of a graduated closed season would he necessary in order to effectuate the arrival of the fish, fifty per cent of the fish, on the spawning a rounds. Shat is oome~hing that we are all vitally interested in, and that is probably the nost important feature before us here, if you don't close fishing it the Hew Westminster bridge.
SECRETARY PaORiBLD:	How, let me see if 1 get this clear-
ly. Supposing upon this scientific investigation just proposed, and hi oh I>r. Smith has expressed his willingness to undertake, and in hi oh th-- hop© was expressed the others ofthe Dominion of Canada /ill cooperate, suppose it should be determined that a ten daye close season allowed seventy-five
per c wit of th' fish to escape to the spawning grounds, then you v/ Didn't rant so long a closed season?
VR. McCOHD:	That is betwo n the 20th of July—
SBC?.E?ARY RKDFIKLD:	Whatever it was, you wouldn't
want seventy-five r- .r cont o escape through for any reason, *ould you?
MR. McCO.D:	1	think	fifty per ce? t /ould sustain it.
3MCRMTAMY R30?13?LD:	Seventy-five -er cent is more than
you planned to have escape, and any arrangement which was found to operate so that seventy-five per cent went through ^/ould not he what you desired?
R'R. McCOMD:	ITo,	1	think	that	would	he	unnecessary*
SECRETARY R3C/P1BLD:	On the other hand, if it were
found by these scientific investigations that only twenty-five per cent got through, then you would regard it as necessary to ro farther in order to get fifty per cent, ./ouldn't you?
MR. HctfOiQ:	Well, there is a point between, to be per-
fectly fair and perfectly frank with this Commission. It is for the Commission to draw the line, as 1 take it, so as to insure the arrival :f about fifty per cent of the fish; but that dividing line is so important to so r-aany people engaged in it, and to the state and the nation, that it ought to be drawn :*omewhere so that the canneries can continue to existand he industry continue to exist, even in a crippled form, and it the s ,rt time preserve th1 fish. !?ow, of course, fifty per cent, re third: this /ill catch it. But 1 take it the ■ ~mbere of the Canadian Commission and the American memb rs both are vitally interested in the preservation of the industry aa an indusrry as well as the scientific fact.
How then, 1 feel this way, that you take it on that closed season from the 20th of July to the 1st of August, if you go any farther than that either way, both as to your own people and to ours, you reach a point where we can't operate, but we think—
SBGR3?AHY KEfrlffiD:	Mr. McCord,—
MR. McCGIO:	You	can't	determine	it	exactly.
SMMKTARY R3DP11S08 It, of course, can be conceded we might reach a point where if it were continued long anough no one could operate. That, of course, is true if the river ?er^ closed down for all time, you would have to stop.
MR, YcCO-O:	Yes.
SECRM^RY REJfFl HTML); 1 an not trying to get a form of words, or to commit you or anybody else to anything, but 1 am trying to establish, if 1 can, a principle. That principle, as I understand it, for which you contend is that m be certain that at least fifty per cent of the fish escape to the spawning grounds on the Fraser River?
MR. HcRO MJ:	That is what we hope for.3aCRRR :!Y RZLfRlhhli:	Th«n	any	irr	mgo-.	ent	that provided
for less than that, /hat v-'*r that arrangement be, *ould not bo, in 70\ir judgment, sufficient?
’JR. ’-'oflO 1>:	^fell,	that	is	a	matter	that	is for the
Cormission to decide.
SBC HILARY RHDl-’ISLD:	V/ell,	is	that	what	you	aim	at?
MR. McGO D:	My aim is at fifty per cent, to bo per-
fectly frank, that a few percentages one way or the other is for the Commis ’ion to determine, because if fifty per cent— we selected fifty per cent because we thought that was ample9 but any considerable amount would simply lengthen out the tine for the rehabilitation of the industry; but 1 hope that those figures will bear me out, and 1 think they will, and it is our earnest desire to keep about fifty per cent of thorn, and 1 think we have pot them, 1 thinkthe figures /ill show it,
S3SCR1RRARY HEhvl.^..D:	Ilien	1	understand	you	to mean that
is the object that you seek rather than the mere number of da s?
hR. McCOKD:	Yes	sir,
SECRETARY HHDV1KLD:	If	eight	days	-mre	found	suffi-
cient, well and pood; if twelve days were found necessary, well and pood?
in. h'cOGRD:	Well, 1 wouldn't put it that way. 1 would
say, so far as the ten days are concerned, from the information 1 have and from the 1 igures that are shown, that if you
261should find that more than fifty per cent went by during that Rime i 'GUid s ylet them go,, take % chance on them. 1 say that because it is go near that that we can still figure out an existence .n what is left, on those coming after the fi a t of August.
?/K. VGITO:	In	other ?ordB, these are the most conven-
ient ten days?
UK. Mc'OMj:	These	are	the	ones	where	we	invariably
have a big r n of salmon. Unquestionably 1 think the whole history of the business, without a single exception, a cingle variation or year, has shown we have a certain run at this time. We want that rim to get by at all hazards, and if the later runs don't come, that is our misfortune, but re don't want— if you should find that the figures showed that between those dates that more than fifty per cent %o by, 1 /ould simply say let them go and not shorten the tine, because 1 think re can live in a more economical form by starting the first of August.
3ECX£?ABY KE^F1HL1>:	But if it showed that les.s than
fifty per cent srent by, then it rould b® wise to extend it?
t!E. Mc^Xa.D; Ho, 1 don't see how you can do that very far. 1 don't. :hi.nk a d:a- or two would make my difference.
SECiCmBY HKJVXjXZ):	That	is	what	1	mean.
VR. MeCO ~£)i Yf3g. If you go very much, and you know it, Mr. Pound, on the Praser, if you go very much farther you destroy it economically.S EC ecf A HY RZJ R1. *1):	Yc s.
KR. lIcOQ 1):	3o you have to keep thess t /o things con-
stantly before this CGnmiasion, and 1 hope they realise the
interests of the cormercial aide of this question as /ell as the scientific and try to solve them both for the benefit of ev rybody.
?IB. 1JESBABATS:	Vr.	McCord, in this proposal of the
closed season of ten d ys you are providing for protection f o" the so eke ye fishing?
?JB. McCO:D:	Yes.
«H. I^CTAIUTS:	Hothis scheme does not provide any
protec Mon .7hatevar for the other varieties of salmon?
m. I’cCf/D:	Well, most of the ot :cr varieties of
salmon do their spawning entirely in American waters, and .;?e have the closed seasons, the weekly elosed seasons and seasonal closures for the protection of most of the other fish in the Sou :d, and slo geographical closures where fishing is prohibited, trying to protect the other varieties of salmon.
MR, U23BAHATS:	You don't think that the panics and
other varieties that spawn in the Praser run through - uget Sound?
im. hcaO.D:	¥ell, 1 suppose boree of then do, but, as
1 understand it, they are comparatively few, because we have seventeen or eighteen hatcheries in the state, and other streams, tre'ninf air fish, other varieties of fish— not so much the soekeye. We have felt that this hole investigationrelated to the a o eke ye s ilmon, the main fish, whi ch is the backbone of the fishing industry after all.
,fM# USfTRAKATS:	Ycu consider the continuation of rour
weekly closed season jouid at ford sufficient protection for the other varieties?
VH. "cCO O:	1 an glad you asked me that question. 1
doubt it. And 1 third: it is very probable that at the next session of the Legislature the fishing interests themselves will urge upon the Legislature the necessity of making some charres and some variations looking to a batter protection.
1 think probably the experience of the last few years h~ve shorn 9 in other varieties, that even with our increased hatcheries we ought to have further closed season. But felt that that question was so largely one en this sido of the line that, as 1 understand it, this while controversy this whole discussion, has been limited so f ,r to thesockeye, or practically so.
■iR. FOiHD:	Mr.	Lowman,	have you any information as
to the course the cockeye salmon take in leaving the Puget Sound?
HR. I'cCOBU:	1	rould say one thing further. So far as
the ther varieties of salmon are concerned, that closed season, weekly closed season, would re-min in force as to the humpback, /hi ch oor.es right after the so eke yes. The re Tould he no change* no el inination of the weekly closed season as to those fish anyhow.-MR. LOV/UA'I:	Ail I understand /our question, ' r. ‘Pound,
it is the question	of tho course of the cockeye from the
sea tcthe ¥rascr River through Puget Sound and adjacent British Columbia waters?
m. VOW'D:	Th	it is it.
LO'JHAM:	The re i 23 a percentage of the soekeye, and
a much larger percentage of the humpback salmon, entering th? Straits of Fuca, that travel exclusively in British Golumbia ,7iters in their efforts to reich the Fraser Hiver •and adjacent spawning grounds. The percent ago of sockeya salmon gcinp through entirely British Columbia waters is not lar^e, but, nevertheless, one would consider it. A percent*-age of other salmon following exclusively British Columbia waters to the Fraser is larger than th sockeye. A line between the two countries comes so close t<# the fishing p.rouudc on the American side that much temptation has frequently existed to our gear to get just as close to that line as they could. Sometimes 1 have reason to believe that a side swipe of the tide ,/ould almost put then across the line.
SW2HE2ARY KEJVIEtZ)Z 1 want to ask Mr. Desbarats of the Department of the Hrv&l Service, in /hich department the fishery service is included, if, on behalf of the Dominion of Canada, or the Province of ~rew Brunswick, or both, they will cooperate during, the present calendar year *iRh the Bureau of fisheries of tho United States and with the state of Washington, through its constituted authorities, in making ascientific determination which has been upoken of?
VR, D13BAR' TSI	The Department will be vary gl a indee d
to cooperate and take whatever iurt will bo necessary in an investigation f that kind.
SI^P/wCARY R10‘l'."rj:	Thank	\X'U»	1.. there	any other
gentleman present who	deaires on	this subject to	address the
Commission at this tine?
MR. CL ARK:	*'r.	S scrotary,	<re have vith us	Judge Uunley
of	the Association of	Pacific Fisheries, who has	one or two
items of international import to the fisheries he would do-aire to present, and vhioh fe believe would be wo thy of con-ji a rat ion by :his Soixiiv. .ion.
FURTHER GTA?J^E1<I BY MH. V. G. HUKLY.
SBCReIR'aHY PCDV1KLD:	Does	it	refer	to	the	Eraser	Hiver
question?
UR. ?iUKLY:	It	do	-o	not	refer	to	the	Fraser	Hiver ques-
tion.
■I2CZRTAr;Y R2DF11&D:	The	only	subject	before	us at the
mo- ont is in regard to the Eraser Hiver. To what subjects, i n r ■- a • r-,1, do the s ub jocts re late, J udg e Muni y?
. MiriLY:	Quest	ions	of	tariff	on	canned	salmon,	the
question of transportation between Alaska and the Port of Seattle, tr. asp:-tation facilities.
SSCRRaTARY KMDVIL’CD:	'fell,	those	questions,	neither ofthem, come within the scope of this conference, *. Runl .
TIH. MIT1LY:	And also the question of artificial propa-
gation.
SSCrcffART roiil'J:	The	question of transportation from
Alaska to the United Staten does not come within the scope
of this conference, nor does the first otuestion that you r iced, 1 think, do so, We must confine our3elvet strictly to international questions.
MR. MtJTTLY:	1 thought it night be a factor in the de-
liberations of the conference for the reason that the questions rs.ised h re in relation to fresh fish by Mr. Lundy, 1
nfer nee rhen it hold its* first session,- and Mr. Lundy raised the question— rather insisted that tariffs bo raised so that fresh fish from the American side ?ould go into the Canadian territory. The c . rnin^ industry fould be av rce to any tariff now ozcisting, for the reason there sould be no reciprocal adv ntage, and it /ould endanger the che pq :* gr ide of s alnon•
SECr*?M\RY KSJFI35LD:	You	are peaking of canned a dmcn?
ME, MITILY:	Yes. And, therefore, 1 thought it would
be of advantage to you to ret some views on that question that mi~ -J cons up fo^ consideration.
SECM.MM\HY HTDVIMT^:	The	question has not	corse	up	in
any	/ ,y before fhe conference.	The question	of	duty	on
caned salmon is not before us	at all.
MM. MlfMLY:	1 thought it	might come up	boiore the	finalconsideration of this conforonce.
SMCTST/.RY 1 ILD:	1	ainply	aay it does not come be-
,	intend	to take that before ua at ell.
v:i# MtPTLY:	1	hoc	your	. arR on.	One word nore on that
subject, Por th reason that the Secretary, on more than ono occasion, said that it was th purpose of this Commission to sweep aside all economic factors—
-	r-:	;	t	statement.
"R* WlTMyY:	Possibly	1	mirunderstood you.
nKC'\ f V RY R.Zr 1'ZZ):	I thlnk you did.	There hava been
a groat many mis under.standings of the hind, to vhich 1 wish to ref or in a Element.	'To thing of th-t kind has bs n said,
nothing of that kind has bean suggested. 1 find it very co non, Judge Muniy, to take a sightly altered point of view of a tatement which entirely changes the phase of the state-ment. It is a common ha.bit* It is a very dangerous one.
1 am f*>r f-*om accusing you of it. 1 am going, however, to *Iy to a certain thing of Hie kind when m close.
V'R. HtfMLY:	Then	there	will	be just one subject which
1 -ould like to take up before this Commission.
GaC "'MARY 'UO?l "Ll>:	7e	are	intending,	if	possible,	to
adjorm no ..
MR. WIXLTj ^o ' good?
3aCR '"'■•my R1D71ELI>:	Per good. wfh,.t ,vas the subject?
’Mi. MITM/Y:	The	subject about fishing or propagation of
the like th t occurs in Alaska.SECRETARY H DT 1RHO:	That	does	no4	concern this confer-
mo	LI,	That	is a mttsr entirely vithin the scope
of the Department of Commerce. 1 ohould be very glad iad t.o have the Commissioner of fisheries, vho is charge with that duty, £dve .-/hat ever time it could to it, and just as fully as you care to talk with him about it, but that has nothin;, /hat v r o ;.o /i h th *ork f this Gonferanco. Wo ./ould verv interested in it and be very glid. 1 /ish we had a groat de .1 more of it in Alaska.
LT<. UMHLY: . I thought in very broad way these sub-j ■ ; M or ;or.ie one of them, might be interesting to this Com-mi ion.
SMC.RahaRY R3£>V1ELL>:	They	are	interesting,	but	jo	have
no lawful authority under our appointive power to deal v/ith thorn.
*Ra. i'UHLY:	One	of	x;ho purposes was to produce as much
of the fish products as possible, because there ./is now—
> SC ] ARY KSJ?XELDt • , ‘ ' confer *ncef but we should be delighted to hear from you as a department, and would give kind, heed to what you have to suggest.
I'H. MIIHLY:	Would	there	be	any	time?
:	i	it	Dr. Smith is agree-
able.
DR. SMliH:
"EC IKT.RRY PCfJl’l ILD:	We	will	be	more	than glad to hear
froii you.STR.TKMKHT BY MR.	P^REY, MI 3SIDKH? OF TBK
.:	93	LEAGUE,	I,	WAS .
HR. BKHBY:	&!r.	jeoretary	and members of the Commission:
While I did not care to say much more, I 1tink I said considerable at the previous Conference, there is two things that the Commission has had their attention called to.
V^e hefcrd gentlemen here talk on the destruction of fish by seel, by fishes, by tirds, by ducks, but there i3 one,
1 think, th>.t is much more destructive to the fishing industry, end that is the catching of young salmon. It may not have the particular effect on the jruget; Sound here on the sockeye salmon altogether, for the reason that they do not enter the Puget dound only to a certain water, probably Can Juan de Fuca, or probably as far as west Beach, but it may have a tendency to keep people destroying, them in soae other [arts of the country where they may carry t lie pr dice on right nov,, or they may in some near future.
Ve ail know, through the scientific methods, the Life of the salmon is four years, and it takes four years for the salmon to grow from its infancy to its maturity.
And I want to 3ay this, that in my experience of a good many years here 1 have "ser. a .eood many of the salmon before they ever reached near their maturity slaughtered, and in such large quantities that I considered it a crime.
CHIMP JUS'riCJi LkZLrr:	how	are	they caught?
9 71 *
hmi -3:iB. Br-BBY:	7boy fire caught-------they are caught by
different net hods of fishing, different manners of seining — CHI a? JUSTICE HA£^?T:	Are they oausht intact lonslly
or inoidentally with other salraor.?
MB. BKBBY:	Intentionally in most of the oases.
b^CMiSTAKY BIDFIELj:	V»ell, let us have a more definite
statement. You say by seining and other ioethod3. Let U3 have aiore detail.
Iu:.. 3a BY:	'a ell, they are o a	tight-----we have had	a
law Lere in this state uo to two	or three	^ears ago--------it has
beer changed--------but the law up to thst time was protecting
anyone that caught salmon over ten inches in length, tnat is, larger than ten inor.es, which would be approximately about tr.is size ( ind i c t ing), ten inches measured by a rule, that is, In length, from the tip of the head to the tip of the tell. Sow, a full grown salmon is 3omewher s bout 3q inches, or probably up to 40 inches. Depends on the species of salmon. But In order to even	get a	lot	of these 10 inches,
which very a good deal, there is	a lot	of	four, five,	six and
seven inch salmon.
S&CBKT/.KY BE DP I ELD:	now, Mr. Berry? Let’s be
spec ifi o?
LB. B:.BBY:	There	are two methods of catching them.
The aost destructive is toe beach seining, and tb n the gill netting coses ntsfc.
SiCIiiiT/.BY KhDFIr.1 The smaij. gill mesh?MB. BK2JM::	Yes.	1 will illustrate how It has been
given to me cere by a gentleman, a gill net f indioat ing).
Chlr.F JJ TICK	:	Isn't there a 1 jw defining meshes
in this section?
Us. R-H2Y:	Yea.
Mh. MoOOKl:	(Reading	as follows;)
^Any person who by anj means, except with hook and line for the sole use of himself an<3 family, jh or	OJ liaor., or Bi IffiOC trout of
any variety less than 15 ir.ohes in length, and who shall not immediately return the same ?*live to the water, or ah«lx buy or sell or offer for Bale, or b&ve in his possession any such fish shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.'1 And
’’It shall be u lawful to buy, sell or lave in possession any of to a food fishes mentioned in this Act caught or taken in any of the we tern of thi.- state wherein it is unlawful to oatch or take t he same. 11
That is the law on the books now, sections 66 and 67 of the Fisheries Code of t rw state of Washington.
OKIE? JUSTICE 1-A25KT:	It	would	appear, if these
people are on tor. ing	these, it	is in	violation of	the	lav?
MB. BKREY:	It	is in violation	of the lavi.	But	most
of this fishing is done nights, most of ny experience has taught me.
CM1..M JtftJMlCZ ..AaC‘~:	What	do	they do with these fisc
wrier they oatoh them, do they sell them?
I:M. BMHRY:	Catching	the	fish	in toe gill net--
CH 1JU RI CM MR 7,M'T:	«e	underss and that.
IMP.- BKBBY:	It	is there	until	they take it	out	of the
9170
r•	e~~4water. After It is killed onoe you can't save Ha life
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZEN:	Y. be t do they do with 1t ?
MR BERRY:	They	market,	it, whatever the law permits
then to market, and the rest is dumped into the ^^ter.
Of ooarBe, *it is not done in j lb in sight, but lone on many ocoasi one.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZEN:	Then what is their purpose in
cstohing them if, when they oat oh there, they dump them into the v.ater a*ain* Why do they make it a business of catching them?
MR. BERRY:	Because they &uat (?et out and o^Lcfc sofi;e
that is marketable, and while catching those they are bound I o os t c h aoiae t be fe & re no t marke tab le.
CHIEF JUSTICE HAZEN:	T hh t is whnt I asked you,
whether it w**s intentional or incidental. durely if they sre	using a net with a mesh that is prescribed by law these small fish would go through these meshes?
BERI-.Y:	The	Legislature of 1917 has provided a dif-
ferent law, ss Mr. McCord has read to you, and the 3ize of the fish has beer, raised from 10 to 15 inches, ^ho Legislature saw
fit------people were kicking that so any of these young salrcor.
were destroyed----------they ever, regulated the size of the mesh;
but	even on top of that it has been	violated. We have	a law
now	that says ”!ro gill net wh!ch is	over 500 feet	in length
shall be of a smaller size than 5-inch.” Nov, that is in gill netting, if you please. That may be the practice and all that, and they may obey the law, but they will take four or five ofthese 500-foot nets and tr.ey 7/ill make a 2500-foot net. if it ie over 500 it can't be under 6-inoh# tut if it is porter than that it can he one, t?,o or three, if ; vu please. 30 in making th«m in four or Ive 1 unired foot seotions they osn pat four or five seat ior.B together and take tnese young salmon by the ton.
CHI a? JUcSTICi, UiZiX:	&bat is tueir purpose in oatofciug
these young salmon if a0u tinve a law v.hiofc provides n penalty for peoie having them in tneir possession, or seeling then,or dealing with item in any way? Mo matter how many they catch, ho* arti ti.ey going to niake any money out of them?
UK. BEKBY: They market the large ones.
GUI?;? JUSTICE hAZIM:	They osn catch rcore large ones by
using the smaller mesh?
Lip.. BEHIiY: Certainly.
SiCljSTARY E^JPIELIi:	3'hst do you propose, Mr. Berry?
LT.. 3-iBhY: I don't kr.pw; tut I would propose the strict enforcement of the present size of the mesh as the Legislature has required it here and not allow tiese seat ions to be coupled together.
CHIiJ JUSTICE K'2K2T: That is an evasion of the law?
im. E .RBY:	Yep.
3 a Chi? AHY r.KDJ'IKLS: Have you brought ti.is to the attention of the fishing euthoritiea in Washington?
-	- *	-	a :	Lave* Mr. decretory, I think 11	go.
274/. ftrr tl^e Legislature passed this >iot that nothing s a Her than 5-inch mesh should be used for pill netting for these young stlmon, it had the affect of putting a lot of these men out of tusinese, teoause it is only praet iced on a small scale; that isf it isn't nr.y large industry. There is maybe only a I rndred or iron&red and fifty men, "but they are naking a pretty ,’ood living out of it.
SECRETARY	: What was the result of your talk with
the official authorities?
13. BERRY: Rhe result of ay talk — it first was called to my attent ion by s man living ir. pverett, w. 3- Graham, who ubopened to be rresi dent of the American urse aeine fishermans League. He wrote me s lit le and said the American
urse jeine Fishermens League should take some steps--------- j
was Secretary------to stop the killing of these young 38lmon.
oo	I took it up with I r. Darwin, who wa then, as he is to-day, our State Fish Com. . iss ioner, went *r.d s aw him personally, and Captain Miller, who was s.is chief deputy, happened to be in the conferenoe with us, and J asked hr. Darwin wh? t he knew ah out it. Le sa;s, "Mr. Berry," tie says, ,Tlel me teli you, l want
to expl.in it fully. Mr. Barker, " Le says,----------^ho is one of
the main fishermen of these young salmon---------"came to me and
pleaded how hard they were hit by the purse seiners in the Legislature, that tney looked after their own interests, tut nobody looked after ’ h small fishermen. They limited their nets to five hundred foet and to 5-inch sise". Hr. Barker toldUr. Darrin t r.e 5-incb net v.oald	to absolutely uBeles,	and t hi t
waa tha reason for raaking----------
3i£CIUCARY RiUFIEID:	; will you state	what Mr.	Darwin	did
wit tout other reisers?	V.e want to know	what they did.
MB. B J.RY : I will oorce to fchat.
•. tSY RKDFIBLD:	Just	eoae to it right* away, won’t :?ou,
please?
HE. Bhr.HY:	Mr. Barker Las applie l to pet---------the license 1
on one of these 500-foot nets. So j;r. Barker applied for five of these if I'.r. l^arwin v.ould permit him to connect these five sections together, whioh raot ieally made a tuo thousand five hundred foot net, vitL the understanding there has f o be a space of twenty feet between e*«ch one of these seat ions to permit the fish to so unhampered through these openings. Of cewrse, I don't know how well y.r. l&rwin understood tr.is uro-P tit ion, .v'rethe.: he ever operated or not.
S^CKaTAHY REDF1K1D:	Pardon me, but	what did	he do?
1H. EaKKY: ‘ Ee sold	i:r. Barker five	of these	licenses
and •ermitted l.lm to use five of these nets and connect them together if he left tie Eo-foot	opening, which	l*r.	Darwin
probably thought was effective,	but it wasn't.
3j£CK3I IKY HE DP IE LD:	Do	we	understand these nets were less
than 5-inch mesh?
HB. EEHHY:	Yes,	s\r; oh yes.
SECRETARY 7.EDF1E1D: And that Hr* parwir. granted a licensefor five such nets, providing they would be twenty feet apart, and knowing them to he smaller than the 5-inoh?
MR. ,aY:	Yea, ' r, any slse they saw fit to an.
SfcCEifiT HY REDPIELD: And it is tfau*. whiob you object to?
IB. Br.IuiY; Yes, because iRr. Darwin told me Is ter he didn't realize the mistake he ««ade. But he r.es r .tit it up to Hr. Barker that if any objection comes from any fishing Organist t1 on, or any f 1 n h e r nr a, ' h5 * r a- •» o ir.n ' up to the .itato Attorney, to our Attorney Jener^l i.er-, and if t re Attorney ’;er.ur 1 ruled trose rets would be all right ne could practice it, tut otherwise he would i.ave to 3o away with it. And 1 will saj tlLis for hr. Larwin, as soon as that was called to his attention he pror.itited the coupling of these rets. But I know it is 6 one to-day, because the fishing for these your.?- salroon is done between dark and daylight.
KB. McGO-M) * J jupt want to . sk him if these „ere ^ oung so eke ye that, were caught?
!Rh. BKKHY:	I	said, -r* MoCcrd, 1 didn’t think it would
hove very cr.uch to do with sockeyes for th reason they don't get up this way.
3KCBKRAKY HEDPIKL3):	Then	it is outside the scope of this
s/
Gonmission and within the scope of the sta e authorities; and ; r. I;aiw.in# insofar as w. have any reason t o /now, has shown every disposition and purpose to comply with the lav, and enforce it strictly. Unless it affects the sockeye
O r* r-i £> i iseliLon that of.s passed through the International boundary it Is not within our scope.
KR. BEHF.Y:	Hr. secretary, 1 brought this to your
attention that it may have some tendency to probably enlighten you in other places where this kind of fishing may be practiced.
MB. BoCOhD:	In	fairness	to	the	?ish	Commissioner, who
has been before this he.-ring once and out of town or. official business nov*t in the event this record Is printed this charpe against hi nr. I think would not look .f-11 unless at the same time the rejoid should be made to 3how thkt Hr. Darwin had teen present, and is not here at this time and had no opportunity to contradict it. I ts ink it is fair to him if not to the state.
dSCr^l'ABY BEDFIK1D:	1	will	state tnat the stenographer
will be requested to prepare fin additional copy of this portion of the testimony which will be transmitted by Mr. Quigley to hr. Darwin, who will be reouested to make an}' reply that he thinks best to tho matter, end his reply willte placed in the record at this point in the testimony^
"May 14, 1918.
Hon. Wm. 0. Bedfield,
Chateau Laurier,
Ottawa, Ontario.
Dear Sir:
This will acknowledge the receipt of yours of May 10'fa, submitting transcript of testimony 2ivenby ! r. ?rank Berry before tho Ameri oan-Cer.ad ian ?l3heri<j3 Conference daring its session in this city.
I notice in your record you 3poke of Hr. ^rank Berry as president of the American purse seine *ioher~ men's League. Llay I cell your attention to the fact tnst the preamble of this League provides that no Amerioen may belong to it, tut that all members must be of Austrian origin? This alleged league was formed after the announcement by the state authorities that Austrian enemies would not be issued licenses to fish in this State by this Department. Mr. Berry, so-oalied president- of this league has been informed against to Ur. Clarence L. He? mes, Assistant to the Attorney General of the united states, as a disloyal person and one whose every effort has been used to frustrate the efforts of the Jugo-dlavs, tho only organization in this olate who has been realty loyal to the c use of the United states and the stents Allies in the present ^ar.
Tbe sole purpose of the formation of tr^is league and ’.he appearance of Mr. Jberr^ b for your Honorable Body was to attempt to convey the impression that the Fishery Laws of the state of Washington h*ve not been enforced by ayself as ^ish Commissioner. This, in revenge for the announcement ty myself that 1 would not issue them a license to fish, because of their being alien enemies of our country. ^eeii-less to say, 85 per oent of all the Austrian fishermen in this State h&ve never taken out their final citizenship papers and never even declared their intention to become citizens of this country until I started to arrest them for violating our laws which provide that a person engaged in fishing in the state of Washington nust be a citizen of the United States or must have declared his intention to become such and hf.ve resided in this State for one yeur preceding his engaging in fishery.
oeventy-five per cent of all the violations of the fishery laws of the state of Washington, during the past five years ave beer, committed by these Siirae Austrian alien enemies who are members of *;r.
Berry'3 alleged association. The fishery laws of this state, in the instance which he cites were enforced in ejcact accordance with instructions from tho office of the Attorney Oencral of this state.Toe statement that 1 countenanced any violations is absolutely and ur.quilifiedly false. Tbe aues-t ion was one of the construction of the law and tie Attorney General .'.dvisod me thot my construction of t he If w is correct, and to this day it is being observed.
I can hardly appreciate why I arc called upon to deny 3iich statements or why such statements were permitted to to made. rid it not occur to the me.nbers of the international High commission that the only criticism which came fro;L this lepartment was from the confessed alien enemies of the country against whom we were enforcing the lav in accordance with the opinion of the Attorney General of this state? At no time did i understand that t he international high Commission was ^utnoriaed or t&powered to u,ake an investigation into the conduct of the fishery affairs of the State of $asLic.jston. 1 am not called upon to make any explanations to the people of this state wi o know that during the past five years and for the first time since statehood, our fishery Leva have been rigidly enforced.
3o	lax had been the conduct of the Fisheries pep&rument during the years irmje iiat ely preoed ing my taking charge that it had be^n the object of' legislative inquiry «nd a oo plex political problem in the it ate. 1 am 9 imply stating the fact wher I say thi t during my more than five veers of incumbency of the office its affairs have been so conducted as to cause its discussion in the political way to entirely disappear.
Hespeotfully# f3gd' I. R. Darwin
31	a t e 5 s b CJ o me; i o s i o n e r. n13. I KMhY:	L	r.	^ecietar;.,	t cere i3 one other thing --------
I do not wisr; to take any time on it----------but I wish to bring
this out. I would like to know, has there been &ny auggea-t ion made on the pnrt of the closing of the fish traps durin? the closed period of the ten or eleven days, whioh V.r. McCord end Hr. Lov.man here suggested w>r*8 a closed season on the sockeye salmon?
ABY MiiDFIhlJ:	The	statement has been irade, l'r.
Berr , and 1 think it should be final or. this# that the
fishing interests of the atate of Washington will welcome
cordially any inspection that rcay be desired on the part
of the federal authorities in order to determine beyond any
question of doubt v/hatever the fact that the traps are closed,
Fnd it now rests with the feaer^l government to determine
whether they will acoept that, invitation or not. But in
of
the face of wh.it invitation and the open statement, I respectfully suggest that no further statement of any kind reflect upon the behavior and credit of the trap fishing inter ots ta made. It isn’t fair. They hhve shown publicly their entire willingness to autiuit to a federal inspect ion in cooperation with the state authorities. r,e have repeatedly asked for definite and accurate instances of violation of the law. one have been supplied. And, on the otherhand, the fullest publicity has beer, courted in the record officially on the part of the	interested parties. I don't think
_8iyou should raise that any fmrther.
MB. BERRY:	All	right.	I	wish	to thank you for your
kind at.tent ion.
J},C aTAKY PJ.DPTKLD:	.‘.e quite f\(;8urQ ; ouf hr. perry,
if it I ci ' 083 Ible for the federal authorities to make t hi 3 oc-
o	<er> live ins ectlon, as "Ae hope to do, it will be entirely satisfactory In Its obaraoter, and If at that time facts arise to yo:\x knowledge, or any man with wr.om you are either connected or whom you know that tended to show a violation of the lav-, at that; time 1 am sure the federal authorities will he *$lad to know it.
' R	.	X.	...	.RRL,
Hi. HALL:	Ur.	secretary, 1 can inform you a little
on t hat.
;R aBY	Hr.jDFlLU):	I think	he i3 through.
l.i\.	HALI:	1 want to answer	his question.	He didn’t
f i sh
i38ue a/license, he issued a trout lioer.se. I an. standing here defending our present yish CommiSoioner.
3r.ChAT.VRY HaDFJ.ELD:	Well, hr. Darwin ?*ill htve every
opportunity-------
MB. hALI.:	And	he	is	r.ot- here himself.
HaDFIELD:	Lscuse	me. Lr. Darwin	will	be pi vac.
every	opportunity as a mat ter of	course sr. d matter of	courtesyto aay istatever he desires in t be record, and whatever he furnishes will be printed there in full. • nd if It is possible for the Fureau of Fisheries later to cooperate aa an assistant, ^.rd, as the trap interests have reouested, to malte it. certain by unprejudiced investigation th'tt there w.s no violation of law, if I r. Darwin -wishes that done it will be done, ar.i will he lor.o well. At tha', time you, or anylody el3e who desires to iiako any complaint in t ne aiatter, will have the fullest opportunity to do so and to have your complaint, followed up in detail.
Is there anybody else wro desires to contribute any statement now on any ph? se of tr.is question which hag not teen thoroughly ^one over?
MK- D.iMAIT:	Mr. Secret ry, the request of the Comn,IssJon
for statistical information L?s been complied with, and the report is on its way up here, and 1 ask at this time permission to file it with the Commission after their adjournment.
SECI-STAKY HEDPIKL3:	Be	vary glad indeed to do so. Any
any gentleman desiring to piece nry facts before the commissior. which are of cin international character is not only free to do so, tut i3 invited to do so, by letter, which may be sent to the Commiscioner of fisheries, at Viashirgton, D. G. f which is a sufficient address, and which will be made a portion of lt-€ r .cord of the Coi nee & nd will be duly considered.
It is the desire of the Commission now to adjourn, but if there is anytody present who has any information to con-
283tribute to this r^attor of the Fraser River conservation wbioh has not been discussed, end desires to do so, we would be glsd to hear froio him now, or later.
.	. J. LC R, SR’R.Y ,
b .Ai - L— « MSI •
Kir.. LU70:	It has beer, stated to me by operienaed
fishermen, and I heai	t up here that it is
pro- o.'	‘ '.aIX . f in V0
been reliably informed	that the	spa^n of the first	run of fi3fc
deposited in the bottom of the lakes is destroyed by the fish that follows, that is, the ted of the lake is dug up t o a certain extent by th© fish in depositing its spawn, but in the stateof fermentation, or incubation tnere, trie subsequent run of fish comes and digs up the same run and destroys this spawn that was deposited by the first run of fish. I am not dirsctly interested in this matter, I am waiting to see Dr. dmita ar~d t ue jecret-ry on masters concerning Alaska, tut since tiis thing ooourred to xr my mind J thought 1 would cent ion it.
ShCHhTAEY	h Thank you, Mr. Lund.
Is there rytody else desires to address ire Commission?
I will say frankly thr-t if anybody present feels that they have a matter of suf icient importance, not alrefe :.y iisaussed, or not discussed sufficiently to warrant it, t ho Con»,witnion will re-asre$tle thi3 afternoon	for	the purpose of	hearing it,
tut Ke o not think it	is nooessf r,	to go ovor the	same groundsny further unless something r.ew is offered.
3TATK3.;.irr BY SOU IVLH TEUK, a fisherman,
* ahATT, WASH.
13. TIiUE:	I	was	listening	to	Ur. ho Cord here. They
thought 5j per cent would go by on t^e fish, kayfce 5o per oent would ^o by. y thought, taough, was to go by the other fellows. I do rot think Mr. LcCord or r.r. Lowman hero now muoh about it. And as far as I Lave been sizing of the noo'reye run sinoe 1896 up to 1917, J don’t believe any of us oar. go oat and operate and pay our running expenses after 50 per oent have pone by. And even if we take it all,
I doubt if v.e oan pay running expenses. And 3 believe both the fishermen ani theoannerymen would be better off if they tried to let loo per oent go by for about a four years period.
I think it would he better for all of us. Because 3 have been hauling now in the last ^oars, the b*st days I might sell, say, I have hel£ open my seine as long as I possibly could nnd four or five fish probably been in the hauls, and up to a hundred the biggest. And I think a hundred per cent in a periodof four years, that is icy opinion of sockeyes.
iLJh^VAKY RiDPIiSLD:	Thank	you	very	uiuah. is there &r.y! ody
eisev- And I renew the suggestion, 1 want to cave it made per.eoll;, lain to everybody, that if there is any gentleman present who desires to present any facts bearing upon this oat ter which have not already been presented, or which alters tDose w 1 „ich have leen presented, the Commission will, ifneoessar; , reassemble t t.ia afternoon for the purpose of bearing it.
81ATEWEUT BY HB. j. Z. «AMKY, A PUBSE 3EIHKB.
S1A5TLE, WA3H:
KR. rtATHEY:	I	don't	agree	wHb	thin	gentleman	who
3poke first, Hr. Thue. 1 aiu a urso seiner and be is
a purse seine fisherman . I believe in the plan alre&dy
laid down by the firhing interests, that ten days 1n the
ibid die of the season ought to te as pood a plan an they oar.
put up, ■ nd ] would sustain such a view as ;;ou have already
taken, ton days of e oh .ear .or a period of eight or ten
t aa t
yeara. I think/would enhance a great supply of fish in preference to a weekly closing season, which we have had for a gr"fit izarrj years, and we do bellove have been ineffective. Hut give the fish the right of way for ten days, fcith no obstruction in any of thrt journey fron the first of the f\phlna ground cle< r up the Eraser Biver would build up a run of fish bolter then have had nil thea_ years th^t v»e hrve had the weekly closed season.
J Or..M MY r.hX,?lKLD: I bank you very much, is there anybody else?
FUKFBhB :.ZX2iALZi? BY MR. I VLB I HUB.
}!•. ;EG^:	Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask 1'Tj Fatney
in this setter, he has beer, a purse seiner for a few years and he has .sold bis urse seine inter sis. I don’t know the reason why be sold, possibly because he thought it would te a
ilH-opaying pro ositIon.
SKORiSARY 3KMPIELD:	1 think you u:ay leave out of the
discussion any Gallicism of his motives.
HH. ?1UE:	1 would like to answer him.
S i.01 rZ A3Y BKDPIELD :	T ha t 1 an' t an anawer.
’I.. MilJK:	Me is probably employed and pettir.2 ^oofl
wapes.
3ECM2I MRY I jSDFIELD:	1 hope so, I am sure.
Kh. THUK:	Ana I hope so, too.
3KC. .MR ‘utY RTDFISXJ5:	Is	t	here anyfcody else?
FUBTHSR 31 "TMllLFT BY Ci 7M1M JOKE	GIBdOIT.
C Rx/ ir GIBS OF:	This is on	the line	of	t, he h? libut
question here-------
3KCKLTARY KM3FIKLJ:	Y»e	are	rot	discussing	th-.ac	now,
Captfi ir. Gibson. V.e closed that. we had a full half day yes:eraay. Is there something new, Captain?
OR MR ' IF GIBSOF:	There wasn’t niuo h time p Iven for
discussi on.
daCMSRARY KKDFIMLD:	It is a	new line	of	discussion,
and	I want to give everybody & chance on the	salmon question
while we are 'it it, and it is no?, ten minutes past one o'clook an3 past our time ol adjourning. How ion* would yon like to have ,Cartain Gibson?CAP? 1H GIB30!f:	Db, 1 think 1 would any all 1 would say
in five s. i nut ©s.
aECRKTAKY REDFIi-LD:	All right, proceei.
v'FTAlIT 1133OW:	T,	e 11, *;here is one question put to ,fr.
Brown concerning what t r.e American fishermen and fisr.ing industry would do providing the Canadinn authorities wculd close down, that Is, if they would strlotly adhere to the treaty of 1816, which cleans that tho Canadian fisherman would not sell their fish here, and all t ne rivilepes that have been granted lately are granted in he interests of the Amurijan fishermen. ?or instance, when they allowed t1 e ir American fishing vessels to secure bait on the other xia side, it is done for the benefit of the American. And also with the bonding priv ilexes, it wfcs all done for the Americans. And if should insist on getting the s&me privileges for all toat.Fj, as they claim trey are getting for theirs on the Canadian side, tfcat the Canadian Government .rjay probably retaliate by saying ".i’hy, you cannot simply come in here at all,” then what will happen to us?
SKCiJv AFf HhCFIMI C:	Captain 3 ibson, you misunderstood
the statement. Again I point out the necessity of statin*? these things correctly. The question tws reised what would ha en if they did? It wasn’t suggested that they would.
Quite a broad difference teiv.een whose two, don't you see, and i would ratoer jou are caref .l nor to stale it as having occuired other than just es it did. phera is too ^uch
^88difficulty srising in: statementa which are not quite correct, aj 1 are *oin* to point out again in a few moments. They would have the power, an they hare :,ir;o xxk&1 lawful rigot, and we i*t ve assented to it, but no one us suggested they would.
CA^TAIH G1B30F:	what I meant to say w o, the idea that
we are entitled to exactly the same rights on trie Canadian aide as the Canadian i 5 entitled to on our aide, and that if the united states government, by insisting tiir. t we get, the same rignts, that the Canadisn Government should do something to retaliate, thst we are rot afraid of them at all, that we could a it a 1 ong without the c. r ha t	i s t tie	ma in	id ez .
Si.Civ&T VRY FJK J?n :•:	1 am slafl	lo hoar	roro	you further.
Captain. Anybody al-e, gent lumen? Any :>r.e le3irous to say anything further in the matter that Lae not teen thorough^ ly disou39ed, or which would alter any of the points of view, or cause new or fresh testimony on	the subject,	we would	be
very glad indeed to he- r from him,	and, if	need	be, will	re -
assemble for that purpose later.
In the absence of the testimony I wish to put in tee recoid, % the request of iir. Desberats, a telegrar received by l r* G. Mackenzie, Gold Commissioner at Dawson, Yukon territory, from the Fairbanks Commercial Club • t Fairbanks, Alaska, read ing:
nCannery being established lower Yukon by erlisle tannery under Government' permit.71 Another case of the inaccuracies of wr.ioh 1 have spoken. Rhere is no Government permit. '’Threatens fish supply all u^er country. Leans depletion Trithin three yearn, shuts you off from supply fish as v*ell Fairbanks. Urre you
_b'.»protest matter to your Government. Also lay before Joint oommi tee in peat tie now. fe talcing similar set ion- Speed neceoaary as men here preparing for
3e6 i on * a work. 11
As 1 repeat, the statement is inaccurate; there i3 no
Government permit. '.’be fact of the matter is this,
the natter has been referred to t, a number of authorities,
It ia a domestic Letter and te.ken care of by .American 1?:*.
T be procedure is, and will be, fo.lowed, that a hearing will be bell and inquiry will be made, a sufficient inquiry will bo made by officers appointed by the Bure .u of Pi3heri9S into the cixcumst?nces of tae case. If it shall ther. appear th^t it is not in the Interests of the population residing on the \ ukon River this cannery s.aall be established, the Department of Commerce has power to either exclude it from tr.e river or permit them to go there. Tte matter v.ila be gone into very carefully by two members of the lure.-u of fisheries and ov 'rythinjj conoernin i it will be tuly rm.de public. At oreaont it Is not os'ible to take action or make any suggestions without inquiry into the precise facts of the case.
CLOSING S'? ATFJOST BY HOF. li ILL I All C. HK.;?I KL3:
-	Z j. AI-iY MaDMIKLD:	In	closing this hearing let me say
that r.e wish to express to the Chamber of Commerce and Commercial Clul our appreciation of treir courtesy in loaning us t r.e ase of these rooms, we wish to express our keen interest in particular ir. the development of the great territory of Alaska. :t If easy to say that, but anyone who will take thetrouble to look a; tae records will find that the department of Co: me roe has practically Jcne acre ir. %h last four years, so far a^ its lawful powers go, to develop Alaska, than was done in the previous ten or twenty years ut together.
The record cannot be impugned. 1 he records of congress are full of reoords of the appropriation committees, are full of files tuade by *k* ne personally or.d by my associates
In the ©aritii	o	or	Depart-
ment, which deal with Alaska, the largest and newest vessels
■r :	a	#	i
built expressly for the Alaska service. And other portions of the country raight perhaps well connle Sn ■ hat they were not rooeivinfl an careful and as earnest ar.d oontlnuouo thought as Al Jkn is receiving at the r^nfin of th: Depnr* rent of commerce.
I do not say that in extenuation of any apology, for I h> ve nothing certainly to extenuate or nothing for which I wish to apologise, tut it is evidence wi-io^ cannot be i^tugned as t be interest of the Department of Commerce in the matiter.
;,e -re ..ere, ir. closing, not in the Interest of any city, not on behalf of cny inter t, or any portion of any inter st> not on behalf of sny state or any r.e rt icuiar portion of the country, but in a nationwide Interest in behalf of 11 * interests of ire vn ole people of the United Sts as. That interest we believe lus*j accord with the interests of everybody in every section and .very interest cv rywhere. 1 can/ot believe that any one part of our country is detached in mutual interest
9 \froE any other ono. ,i'e believe that the plainest sense
of . abllo 6 ity c lie upon there two nations to quit looking at ore another with suspicion, ahove all to cease speaking of one another witt stiore :r santat ion, and to reireober having to live not for to-day or tomorrow, but for all tlroe side by side; we must ?et alon? with each ether whether we will or no;?.e roust gei flong with each other on terms of equity and conmon understandir.g. The records of ‘he \ istory of our country are full of losses «o the American fishing interests because they would not reach the.t viewpoint. And w r:§.ve paid largely and liberally for our failure as Americans to do our ait in 11.€ common unci are t a nd in g. . uere lie 3 in tie little library of the ;o**n ’shere 1 was brought up a check for a good ro&ny asillions of dollars which v,e paid as a res.ilt of our unwillingness, gentlemen, to do our full j.art. I am not saying that others have not done their share, too, hut Tihat is sauce foj the poost is sauae for the gander, and we u v*? at least formally and officially teen obliged to pay for wfc*t we ourselves troughs trst at the tIroe to do.
Lov., it ir the earnest desire of the President that the manners gat fco.^e t h ?r, and Z thinJc that the mass of the American people wno hiive no interest directly in the matter, cxcer-t as aoncumtre and except as citizens, will look with d: sfavor on hiio who in any faintest way would still Btrive to kcep uo apai’rf. howev r t h. t may be, we shall endeavor aa impartially ac possible, a no a .-i carefully as we can to so<3ire6i end utilize ♦ be informal ior ^bich y m haw ter. V.ind enough to five us at to reaoh r result whiot w!ll be ao favorable hv tbit- reached upon the Atlantia Coast, wbioi, although i note it is described in tbe article to which I have recently referred as destructive, is, I am ^lad to say, accepted by the unanimous opinion of those who are thus supposed to te destroyed- (Applause.)
CLOdllTO oRATUI.r; BT CLIKP JUSTICE EAZF.?i
:	.	-	a	a
1 hi?ve only a word to add so wb° t tan been 3- id by v;r.
Score t ^ry He if iel i.
I would like to take the opi ortunity, Kr. Secretary an* gentlemen, on behalf of try Canadian oolleapuea in this Conference, of expressing our apreciateon of the irafener in w lob wo cave boar, treated, not only in *s sat tie, but in other parts of tte United States where it has boor, our pleasure and privilege to be in connect ion with the work of this commission, here in S-'&ttle we have teen trotted with a courtesy and with e hospitality that we appreciate in tbe very highest degree, and for n':ilch I wish to express the thanks for the Canadian section.
T chrry way with me from jcattle impressions of a most favorable cnartcter ra^&rdinr tcis city. 1 have tc«n very c.ucb impressed with its enterprise, with its commercial prosperity, and »vitb * he unbounded courtesy nd kindness of its
293peo - ,	'	for	.
a wonderful future > nd i. future that, I believe, ,111 place Seattle among tt.c largest cities on thi3 continent. I L*ve been attracted not only by tbe commercial possibilities of tbe lace, not rly by its wonderful industrial development,
lut also by its beauty and by the fact that the people Lave taken nteps to surround it with beauteous influences of
modern oiv*llzat Ion which are ro essential to the hapniness and prosperity of a free people.
The rcFilt of the meetings has been, i think, a3 far a3 t he commissioners on both sides nre concerned, to rai ove many misunderstand inas that have occurred in the oast, to make us understand that many difficulties in the rast have been four3ei upon a misapprehension eaoh of the other, hnr* to re.LCve doubt tta t existed in our minds, that regarded certs in matters that rave been discussed for years in oonnoct ton v>ith the fishery development of this continent.
I trust thr«t toe Commission, and believ the: Ue commission trIII be tie to arrive at conclusions that *ill bo to the benefit of U people of both countries, and to the benefit of the c ivilizat ion *na t he fut ire happiness and p^ace and prosperity of "orth America. If wo can do tnis even in a □mrll dogreo the si ointment of the Commission will have bee#, amply and fully justified.
V.e oo..nenoed our meetings in Ass hingt on, the caritol city oi the United states. ,,e °o from here to Ottawa, tee cap it ol city oi the Dominion of Canada, there to considertte reproaer.tat1 ona a nd vie*\3 t U\ * are resented to us
and to see what the conc was ona are «t win. i oh wo o fir. arrive,
i	feel that during our deliberations t her*i on both aides we « ill ro ;ee ; an1 be influenoedor.l;* by cons i-orat ions th» t are important to t i.e people of both nations, nnd t he *. we will not allow mere local or sectional matters to stand ir. our wr>y of arriving at conclusions that can be supported from tr.e brosw’ standpoint of the poo le of the United jtatos end the broad standpoint of the interostsof the people of the dominion of Canada/
I	again beg most h. artily, on behalf of mysolf and my colleagues, f-o thank the reqie of oeattle for their kind attentions v>l11r v.e were here, for t h<; kind welcome t hey gave us ana fo; the kind hospitality and kindnesses they have extended to us.
And I would like to say aim, in vle% of a remark made hy Mr. Logman here ti.ia morning, that In our opinion o the discus-ions have tear, carried on in the b^st of s lr!t, that they rave cot her n ar.duly delayed or prolonged, and th pent lemon wro t. ve presented the views of t r.e different inter'sts, and of their own personal interests, in regard wo t i.e matters before us, have teen assembled *;n} well expressed, ir, exi re8sed in go d part r.d in go^.i temper, and not unduly rolunged, and ] thank rou v ry much indeed for the kind rece|-lon we Lavereceived. (Applause).
CMC m; .HY RSDPIhLI :	'"he Conference is now adjourned
to meet in the City of Ottawa at 10:. o'clock 0n -he morning of May 20:h.	(	aDJOUHITEI. )
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Am3he
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