WASijjncsjojy yjg'j in, IFgijgjggy wyypj HEARING JUNE 20 1921 two* w«mWASHINGTON STATE FISHERIES BOARD Hearing held at Seattle* Washington, in the assembly rooms of the Seattle ' > ' > » J * * ! ’ 1 J , O > O ' * ' > 5 J } Omanber of Commerce, at lu A.la. June 20th, 1921 P R S S E N T. E. A. Sims, Chairman, a. Ramwell, and Edward P Bla^e, members of the board; L. H. Darwin, secretary of the board; ana Ernest Seaborg, Director. -oOo-156635 i u d e x OP Eli ING 8 TAT EMEHT (By iJr. Sims;......................2 DR. C. H. GILBERT..........................................10 H EURY 0 ' MAI LEY.........................................16-27 JA»:ES A. HAYS.............................................20 R. P. NASON................................................2£ CHARLES A. ZEIG1ER..........................................29 M. L. R0B3RTS...........:..................................fcl-llfc G. E. MITCHELL.............................................-6 HOY L AH SOU...............................................41-66-95 RALPH NICHOLS..............................................5b C. C. If El SOU............................................6b-9 5 C. H. WHITING .............................................79 GEORGE VO3GEN..............................................90 FRAIfK BERRY...............................................94-96-1M R. A. WELCH................................................94 PETER SHANSI...............................................106 ALBERT PFUULT..............................................106 COLEMAN QUEEN..............................................115 s. Q. HALL.................................................11b B. yiEYER.................................................12£ - o u o -HEARING ON PUGET SOUND FISHERY MATTERS Notice is hereby given to all parties in any wise interested in fishing questions relating to Puget Sound and the tributaries thereof that a public hearing will be had by the State Fisheries Board in the assembly rooms of the Chamber of Commerce in the City of Seattle at ten o'clock Monday morning June 20, 1921. At this hearing all matters relating to Puget Sound fishing questions of any character or nature as they pertain to Puget Sound and its tributaries will be taken up. STATE FISHERIES BOARD E. A. Sims, Chairman. L. H. Darwin, Secretary. - 2 -Pursuant to published call hereto annexed the board was celled to order by E. A. Sims, Chairman. And thereupon the following proceedings were had and done, to-wi t: THE CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen: The meeting will come to order. There was a call made about two or three weeks* aLo for a general hearing on puget Sound matters. we want to listen today to those that have anything to say as to tributaries, closed areas, closed seasons and restrictions on gear, or any other subject that may pertain to the fishing business on Puget Sound. We have delayed having an earlier meeting for the reason that we were negotiating with the Canadian authorities trying to arrange for a conference in order to get uniform ret.ulations pertaining to the Fraser River sock-eye fishing territory and the Pufcet Sound territory. Without going into detail I will say that the results have not been very satisfactory. As a matter of fact, so far as we are now informed there will be no further negotiations with them this year. However, there was another string to our bow on the sock-eye question and that was an appropriation by the last legisic. ture for the purpose of using the funds toward biological surveys, eyeing stations, fish hatcheries, rearing ponds, or other things necessary to reproduce the sock-eyes. We are now working on that program, and when the waters of Fraser River become satisfactory to examine several are going to make that examination and then we will know to what extent we are going to use the funds, so far as this year is concerned. We hadanother matter up with the Canadian authorities and that was the question of trying to get uniform regulations on the coastal fisheries, that is, the outside salmon fishing, off the coast line. The state of Oregon, by statute prohibits fishing now inside of three mile limit for certain seasons, and during the same prohibited season prohibits the importation of fish from outside of those limits. This board passed like regulations, so far as the three mile limit is concerned, up to and including Cape Flattery waters, that is from the Oregon boundary line to the British Columbia boundary line and to the three mile limit of the coast, we put in effect the same regulations as Oregon, within the three mile limit. The importation of fish from outside of that point is controlled by an act of the legislature which created this fcafd. Anybody taking issue upon that point will please take issue with the legislature. We are here to stand on the findings that we made so far as inside of the three mile limit is concerned. We have been making a general investigation oi the fishing situation in the State of Washington. We have been on Grays Harbor, Willapa Harbor, from the Columbia river at the mouth up as far as the Dalles and later on further up along the upper tributaries. We find the conditions for the possible future of the salmon on those tributary streams, all those streams, to be very poor. There are so many' things that enter into the situation outside of the actual fishing itself that the situation is really serious. We are working with Oregon on the work of trying to increase the supply on the Columbia - 4 -river and its tributaries. For instance, I will just give you the expe ience on one river which generally 3peaks for most all of the tributaries, possibly not on the main Columbia river itself, and I think it also speaks for the conditions on Puget Sound tributaries largely. I think we are a little worse off here than they are, but the conditions are alike, but more extended here. On the Yakima river, quite a large stream, a tributary of the Columbia, entering the Columbia about hennwick, the first obstruction you come to in the river is an irrigation dam at Ridgefield. A few miles above that point is what they call Big Horn Bend dam. The next obstruction is the Prosser Falls dam, which you have read something about lately. That is the place where the last legislature attempted to give the Indians some leeway, more leeway than they had under the lav; previously, but God Almighty, in his wisdom stepped in and put lots of water in the Yakima river this year and the fish are going up instead of going into the tents, so there is a possibility this year of getting a supply at the head, although I doubt whether it will benefit the industry much at that. The next obstructions are at Sunnyside and V/apato, two government dams, very peculiarly constructed. The water goes over the cam in a manner different than what the fish arc accustomed to and many fish die at that place, and the fish that do not die in the low water the Indians catch. Further on up there is another dam that we did not get to, but there are two of the finest of what they call • oyal Chinook spawning streams in the State of Washinton, one in the - 5 -Bumping river and the other the American river. Those streams are practically failures. However, v/e feel there will be sufficient fish get up for a fair feeding ti is year. At the present time they are constructing the Him Hock dam, which so far as I know will be one of the biggest dams in eastern Washington, making one more obstacle for the fish to surmount. After a fish gets to the spawning grounds and becomes fry, he starts to the sea. In my judgment very few get through practically none of the large irrigation c nals - the main canals are closed. The size cf the canals, the amount of water and the drift going down those canals, the present law does not cover the situation and if it did it would not amount to anything, anyway , because the government has said it will not put in anything in which it is interested until an absolutely satisfactory obstruction would be made for the fish, without going into some temporary arrangement. They think that they have secured an electric stop which they claim has been satisfactory in smaller places. You can take the farmers over there and you will find when they drain the canals in 'he fall they have all kinds of fish of all sizes. In the summer time when irrigation is at its heighth there is at all times no more water in those streams below the dams than there is on this floor. There are pools in which some fish rest until the supply of water increases, when the irrigation season is over. The Indians walk out into the beds of the streams below some of these dams and pick the fish out those places. Those are the conditions on the Yakima - 6 -river. You can picture to yourselves what the effect is and v/hat it is going to be. At the present time they are figuring on increasing the height of the Prosser dam falls to get more water on a higher area. It simply means that as civilization goes on ana farming increases there will be a greater call for water, and the more they draw on the water the less opportunity the fish have ior getting by, which resolves itself into this condition, that other ways and means have to be found for the reproduction of the salmon. Just what' they will be I do not know. We have some ideas on the subject, but I do not know that there is any full fledged or any concrete proposition that anybody has offered that will cover the situation at the present time. The same conditions exist on Puget Sound , largely the same, only for different reasons. The obstructions in our streams here are due to the water systems and the A power sites. We have not much irrigation, although we will have more. Fhe streams on this side are smaller and they will not bear the runs of fish that the otriers vail tear. In other words an obstruction in one of our rivers might entirely destroy the propagation of fish, while in eastern Washington, on the Wenatchee or the Okanogan, it might have some effect, but it would not be an entire obstruction. In addition to that here we now have a change in the old natural water conditions. We have now, as you all know at times extreme freshets and extreme low water which is affecting the fish, and, last, but not by any means the least, comes the fishing activities and all of these things have to be combat ted by those who have their - 7 -money invented. We are trying to do what we can to protect the interests of those who have their money invested and at the same time protect the interests of the state. We may make mistakes, hut if we qo, they are mistakes of the head, and not mistakes of the heart. So, when you have criticisms to make, instead of making them down in the Butler Hotel or the Seattle Hotel lobbies or in your union halls, but if you will come to the office and sit down with us, and if you can show us where we are getting off the track at any time we will be gif. d to discuss these matters with you. I have heard more about myself indirectly than I believed I could jam into one lifetime. Some- \ times I hear that I am good and sometimes I hear tha^; I am bad. I am not goinfc to say anthing about the fA other members of the uoard, because everybody knows their reputation. The situation I am trying to depict |\ is that the salmon situation is in mighty serious shape and by the way, in speaking of our meeting with the British Columbia authorities, the question of the coastal waters, Senator Mcllary , had introduced the resolution in Congress asking for a meetine or a conference, or whatever you may care to call it, between Washington, Oregon, California and British Columbia, and of course the federal government will take care of its end for the purpose of having uniform regulations, on the entire coast, for salmon. It may go further than salmon. I am not so sure, but I think the resolution calls for food fish, but my impression is that the large factor is salmon.As you all Know we did not take office until very late this spring. I will be frank in saying that we should really have been in office earlier than that. However, working unaer the conditions that 'we have Deen working under, we have attempted to do, and we are goin^, to do all of the things that are possible to do towards gettin^ results for this season. The act of the legislature creating the board did not become effective until April first. I was not aware of that feature of it when the bill was in embryo, and that part of the bill coula have been put into effect upon the signing of the bill b^ the governor. It was a lapse on the part of the governor. 1 miLht say £t that time I did not know that I was to be on the board, but had I known of the discrepancy I would have called it to the attention of the governor. However, our activities did not start until April first, and for that reason we were considerably handicapped. I believe that you gentlemen shot-Id 'nave some information from a source that is recognized from a technical standpoint by every one interested in fish. Dr. Gilbert has kindly consented this morninc to say a few words to us on the sock-eye situation and also on the findings th. t he has made and the results of his examinations along the streams. I know that you are all interested in this work. A few of us know nothing; much about it in a scientific way. I think the doctor has earned his diploma in that respect. Mr. Henry O'Malley, head of the United States Bureau of fisheries on the co^st here is Loing to &ive us some figures also on the take of hump-back salmon in the United States hatcheries. Much to my surprise I havefound that the depletion in the hump-back is becoming just aboi;t as rapid, and I am not so sure but more rapid than the depletion 01 the sock-eye anci I know yoi will be interested in hearinL th''Se two gentlemen speak. Dr. Gilbert, will you please come forward. iDr. Gilbert steps forward) THE C HA I Hi! Ail: Gentlemen, t ii i 3 is Dr. Gilbert, of Stanford University, now bound for Alaska to make an examination for field survey in the north. DR. GILBERT: Mr. Chairman ?nd gentlemen: I shall not make any attempt to give you an outline of the scientific work which I have been doing in connection with the fisheries uureau for several years. I am going to say a few words in emphasis of your chairman’s statements, that the situation of the salmon industry on Puget Sound is very pre-# carious. It is hardly necessary to say this, but I am told that there are still men in the industry who do not appreciate the seriousness of the situation. This is no new matter. fe have been gathering around the bedside of the invalid for a number of years prescribing bread pills, opiiifc that things would come out all right, but it seems to ne now that it resembles more nearly an autopsy than a prescription for illness. I consider the salmon industry on x;ufcet 3ound absolutely near its last legs. f hS regards the eo^k-e;, e situation for several years back the off-years on Pu^et Sound paid neither the men who caught the fish nor the men who put then in tins. The biL year is a thing of the past. Let us not cherish any illusions on that score. In the canyon of the Fras er river in 11 IS I examined the millions of sock-eyes try- - 10 -inc to pass throuth the cannon to the spawning beds and unable to get over the obstructions then in the canyon, and I appreciated the fact that one oi' the greatest tragedies had met the fishing industry that has ever been known in connection with any one territory. Those fish did not succeed in getting up above trie canyon. They died below the canyon and their egts perished with them. They did not spavm at all. The year 1S17 was the legitimate result of that tragedy. nineteen hundred and twenty-one will be worse than lvol7. Do not ermit yourselves to have any doubt upon that 3core either. There is no reason to believe that the catch on Pufcet Sound in 1^21 will even approximate the reduced catch in 11/17. The run of soch-eye salmon to Puget Sound is , one, so far as the commercial value of it is concerned. .ie will never fcet back the biL run. If we get back anything it will be a gradual raising of all of the runs of all of the years ^nd it will be just as easy to bring back any of them to a position of high productivity as it will be to bring back the big years. That, I venture to say is ^one, but I do not mean to say that there will be no sociL-eyes running in 1921, and no one can predict the size, but what I mean to saj is that in our .judgment that run will be no better than the average runs of poor years, and whether we will Lave £0,000 or 75,000 or 1GC ,000 or 150,000 cases on both sides of the line, no one can say, but for part, although I recognize the danger of predicting anything in regard to salmon runs, I shall be very much surprised indeed if we nave a catch on Puget Sound or in British Columbia this year oi more than ISO,000 cases. - 11 -sow, a a regards the other 3pecies of salmon on the Sound , your Chairman indicated that fr. O'Malley will make it clear to you, but the hump-bachS are in like disastrous condition. In part that was due undoubtedly to the blockade in the canyon of the fraser river, which was originally a fine hump-back stream, in lfcli:. Nature has been a very bountiful provider when it comes to providing, spawning salmon. he provided a great deal more spawning salmon than necess to k( ep the fish runs in tnose rivers, possibly to compensate for any disastrous condition in any one year. The runs have been coming each year, but does anybody know how great that surplus is in any locality? Do you know whether you can safely take 25 or 50 per cent or 75 per cent of a run? IJobody knows; nobody has ever answered. vie are running the salmon business on the most unbusinesslike foundation of an^ industry I know of. , e ^now little fundamentally about it from beginning to end. I can say now that Fr. O’Malley ana myself, working under the Bureau of fisheries, are now en-de vor inL. from experiments here to ascertain some of the fundamental facts in thin* direction. We are trying in two streams to count the fish escaping the nets of the fishermen. If that can be done for a number of years, when those fish hav returned, we will h ve some information at least as to what is the proper expectation for a given number of spawning fish. 1s to gill-nets and then added purse-seines to the traps and then added trollers to purse-seines ina if we can find any other waj oi catching fish we will try that also, and pay no attention to the proportion of the run. Can you hope to keep the run coming on any 3uch basis as that? You have not and you will not do it, and the fish is practically killed on Pug-et Sound, so far as natural production is concerned, but the one ray of hope in the situation, as I see it at the present time, is the formation of this board of fisheries in the State of Vasaington. For the first time in the history of the state there is efficient machinery for handling the situation and unless it is sow too late in regard to the fish themselves, so they can be built up, this board v.ill take steps to build them up. I have no interest in the state of Washington, except as a citizen of the United States and I desire now to beg you to get behind your board « as long as you find it worthy of confidence and L;ive them courage. They will provide their own wisdom, I do not doubt, but give them courage to proceed in the trenchant masner necessary, stand behind them, and if they are not brave enough, push them forward until something is done to brinb the industry back to where it should be. ihe state of ..ashington cannot afford to lose as great ail industry as the salmon fisheries of Putet Sound. I thank you. (Applause) MR. C. C. liKLSOU: (Representing the fishermen of the south fork of the Skatit Hiverj I would like to ask Dr. Gilbert to give us his idea as to which is the most dangerous gear to the fishing business. - 15 -DR. GILBERT: The question is a very burning one, as all of you appreciate, but I will tell you my judgment of it, which I have stated previously. It is this: The only matter that is of any importance to the preserve tion of the fish is to allow enough fish to get to the spawning grounds. The particular form of gear that catches the fish is of no importance, except in this way: If there is any kind of gear more wasteful than any other kind of gear, if there is any kind of gear that catches poorer fish than any other kind, on the average, that-should be attacked first. My judgment is that the kind of gear that is the most dangerous to the industry is the troller. I made a report on your trolling off the cape in l(oll and I have never had occasion to change that view. I will tell you why I think so. The troller ana seiner, as they work oif coast, catch immature salmon out in the open ocean, doin^. more harm than any other kind of gear, and for that reason, and that reason only, I believe they should be restricted as far as necessary to save the situation. ihe trollers and purse seiners were unrestricted in fishing off the coast wherever the fish schooled in the beginning of the season, At that time their catch is largely cohoe and sprinb salmon. the cohoe is a fish that erows to its full size in three years. During the first y :ar of its life it stays exlusively in the streams. Ho cohoe ever goes out to salt water during the first year. They remain the entire year in the stream. In the second year they grow up to an average of perhaps a pound ana a half or two pounds and sometimes not more than half a pound. And in the spring of the third year, or the year - 14 -in which they are gOinfc to mature, they are still a very small fish. If i'ou catch them at that time it would take probably £S or «dO to make a case, ix you have courage enough to cut them up and put them into cans, cjs some people have done. Those small fish, if they are permitted to grow during the season for a few months more, grow so rapidly that they are full grown by the end of the season. You can appreciate the weight of catching them either by troll or purse seine at any season when they are in that very young condition. The same thing is true of the spring salmon, only it takes the spring salmon longer to mature and you get a smaller proportion in the earlier season. For that reason I believe the most destructive fishing that has ever been devised has been the fishing off the coast. JTR. H. L. POBEPTS: (Of Olympia) Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Dr. Gilbert a question. THE CHAI3K1AN: Ho. Prof. Gilbert came here this morning to enlighten us on the scientific end of the fish question. He is here on a visit in Seattle; he is not here on trial. Mr. Babcock, who is the provincial commissioner of British Columbia, in his report--! have not verified the statement that he gave, but I am satisfied that it is absolutely correct, although I may have the figures wrong, in 1909, in the ^.uesnel lake, which is one of the biggest lakes tributary to the Praser river, four million sockeye salmon went into that lake. In lcolc there were L50,000. Kow, he says that those fish happened to get into the Praser river at that time and it is .just his opinion of the matter that these were the first of one of the runs of - 15 -fish end happened to &et to Hell Gate when the water was sufficiently hieh to get even over the obstruction, because a very short time after that the fish out right off and there were no more. That is a cutting down from 4 ,000,000 down to 550,000. The hump-backs are practically extinct in the upper reaches from Hell Gate to .uesncl on i-p the stre^mthey are ^one* They have quite a large area known as Harrison Lake, Lilloet, and those tributaries and these are the only producing grounds that the sock-eyes are going: to. There are practically none going to the upper reaches. You see those pictures. (Indicating) There are, I think, about 70 or 60 little salmon which were taken in the Duwamish river by an angler. A few days before that another party had about 700 or 600, - they did not catch him, - and it is such thin^. s as these that brin& us here, is to try to fcet them from this size up to the size that you can catch them at and sell them. Hr. O'Malley will ( ive you figures on the hatcheries of the United States operated in the state of Washington pertaining to hump-backs, Mr. O’Malley is chief of the United States bureau on this coast. MR. Hall IP Y O'MALLEY : (Of the United States Bureau of Fisheries for the Pacific Coast) hr. Chairman and Gentlemen: Before I give you these figures I will tell you a little of the work we have been doine this year in conjunction with the new fisheries board established here in the state of Washington, ive happened to be fortunate, enough in having the only sock-eye salmon hatchery that is tributary to the Puget Sound waters. Last year we took some 7,000,000 eggs at that station and the board has kindly consented - 16 -to join hands with us and help to feed and carry these fish over to the fingerling stage, liberated in the headwaters of the Skagit river. Baker Lake. Another feature is what percentage have ^otten to the spawning beds in the hump-back runs in the la3t few years. It is possibly Lood to look at it from a commercial stanpoint, but we should look into the future years as to what gets on the spawning beds. These figures, for 1912, sn off year, we only took 2,OOO,OOO hump-backs at our Hood's Canal station (At this time Iflr. O'Malley submitted the following tabulation for the record:) HUMPBACK TAhE IN PUGET SOUND FIELD Fiscal Years 1915-192O. Y ear Station ITo. Eggs taken Total for Year 1913 Baker Lake None Birdsview 2 ,000 Duckabush None Illabot Creek None Quilcene None 2 f OOO 1914 Baker Lake None Birdsview 2,756,000 Brinnon 20,692,000 Darrington 91b,Ooo Day Creek 3,250,000 Duckabush 3,£Ob,OOO Hahahama R. 157,000 Illabot Creek 764,000 Quilcene 240,600 Sultan 5,059,000 42,161,600 1915 Baker Lake None Birdsview None Brinnon None Darrington None Day Creek None Duckabush None Illabot Creek None Quilcene None Sultan None NoneYear Station No. Eg,- s Taken Total for Year 1916 Baker Lake None Birdsview 1,550,500 Brinnon 2,207,000 Darring ton 6,728,000 Day Creek 2,696,000 Duckabush 1,192,000 Illabot Creek 2,504,000 Quilcene 16,000 Sul tan 222,000 17,315,000 1917 Baker Lake None Bird sview £6,000 Brinnon None Darrington None Day Creek None Duckabush None Illabot Creek None guilcene None Sul tan None 36,000 191b Baker Lake N one Bi rd svi ew 738 ,800 Brinnon 2,536,000 Darringt on 1,090,500 Day Creek 1,224,000 Duckabush 553,000 Illabot Creek 1,606,000 Quilcene 137,000 Sul tan 66,000 7,953,500 1919 Baiier Lake None Birdsview 66,000 , Brinnon None Darring t on None Day Creek None Buckabush None Illabot Creek 7,000 Quilcene None . Sultan None 93,000 1920 Birdsview 74,000 Duckabush 6,000 60,000 TOTAL EGG TAKE FOR THr 2 PERIOD 67,643,400So, you din figure out for yourselves whet is on the spawning beds, and you can figure out for the future. There is no need of my coillL into details at all. The figures are there and they speak for themselves. I thank you. TiX C.-IAIPJflAIJ: made an order which I believe took effect some time around the first of April, that fishing would be extended two weeks for imrature salmon, that is, we extended the closed season from May 1st to April 15th. The Whiz Fish Company, since May first has bought 15,OoC of those young fish and the weight of the fish was between 25,000 and 27.G0C pounds. How, I think you are all sufficiently wise to see what that means. If those fish had been allowed to mature and Lone to their proper size, they would come back a d you would get them after a while, so that shows what is happening and any further comment is unnec- essary . - 19 -STATEMENT OF JAL12S A. HAYS THE CHAIPliAN: You are from Tacoma? A Yes. You are one of the commissioners of the Metropolitan pork district of Tacoma? A Yes. You are representing them here today? A Yes, sir. f They wrote us a letter on May 21st? A We have written several letters, I think the last one was May 21st. Our correspondence has covered a period of three years, ever since I have been on the board. I am talking about the correspondence of this year. A Yes, I think that wan in May. Q Is this the subject you wish to take up? A Yes I notice that the letter states, Fr. Hays, that the fishermen are interfering with your boating business? A The condition is this: The Metropolitan park district of Tacoma have under control the Point Defiance park. It is government ground but is turned over to us for our control for ..ark purposes. At the park we maintain a pavilion where there are boats for rent for pleasure purposes. Incidentally, if any one wants to fish from those boats they can, but primarily those boats are for pleasure purposes. Now, I have been a member of the board a little over three years. During that tiee we have had continual complaints from the patrons of our boat3, those who are hiring them for pleasure .purposes, of the power boat fishermen who fish from - 20 -the south boundary of Point Defiance park on its east side up around the point. ,p Where is the point of the south boundary? A By the smelter. From there up around foint Defiance? A Yes. ^ That is where those pleasure boats operate? A That is where they operate generally. And that is where thi3 interference come3 in ? A That is where the inter.erence comes in. The power oat men, I have seen them drive in through the pleasure boats, some of which were trolling, absolutely without any regard to those boats, apparently not heeding any of them, but driving through and swinging their seine--------(interrupted) Q When you speak of power boats you are speaking of powerboat fishermen? A Yes, and they will pull in their seines with these boats inside of the circle, these boats which are strictly out for pleasure purposes, out in our boats. F Kidnapping them? A Well, they lay out around them anci pull in their nets and pay no attention, leaving them to fcet out of the seines as best they can. a Is that an actual fact? A Yes, sir. F Have you ever seen a seine go around a boat with people in it? People inside of the seines? A 'fes, sir. « Q What would prevent them from pullint over the corks? A Well, they £Ot out. - 21 -U There was not any particular harm done to the boats? A '.7ell , supposing yoar wife and daughter were out there rowing, or some of your children out there rowing, it i3 not exactly a pleasure to see a power boat running around them with absolute disregard of them. TH3 CHAIIiMAN: There is more or less of an element of danger there. There is no question auout that. MR. IAYS: We have applied to the United States government to try to stop that kind of work, and that is why we asked you to close the waters for fishing off that side of the park. Q How far off shore? A Well, I would request--in talking it over some wanted it a half a mile and some wanted it a mile out from the beach. I believe it should apply at least a half a mile out from the beach. .ihat seasons of the year are they fishing there? A Whenever the run is on. 2 Is that in December or June? A veil, I have seen them at different times in there. Practically i-ll of them they fish in there, whenever it is open, all of the year, during the open season. Q I did not know but what there might be some particular time when they might be firhing around there, at some parti cular period. A 'Veil, I have seen them fishing practically all of the open season. f Q Have you any more to say on that subject, Mr. Hays? A Ho. THE CHAIRMAN: All right thank you. - s£ -THE CHAIRMAN: Does any one else want to say anything upon the metropolitan park situation. STATEMENT OF R. P. NASON THE CHAIRMAN: Where are you from, Mr. Nason? A Tacoma Q What is your business? A I am secretary of the Washington Stats Sportsmen’s association, appearing before you today representing the Sportsmen’s Association of Tacoma. That association has been working with the Metropolitan park board on this subject for several months and have taken this up more as a civic matter in the community than as one strictly pertaining to sports, although that side of the question has its points. There are at Point Defiance, Salmon Beach, which is on the south side of Point Defiance, around the point itself and beyQnd where the tunnel comes out there, over 400 boats kept there the year round. On week days there are from one-third to one-heIf of them used, except Saturdays and Sundays, when all of thou are used there, and this other ground that fr. Hays has referred to extends really beyond the jurisdiction of the park board. It extends down as far as Day Island, which is the next resort souKth of Salmon Beach. Q Where is Salmon Beach?A Salmon Beach is south of folnt Defiance proper, between the Point and where the tunnel comes out on the Sound, and Day Island is .just south of that about two miles. It is in the area on that side of the point known locally as "The Harrows.” How, this boating and pleasure fishing extends north into the west pass, which is on the west side of Vashon l3lana, and the conditions are such b^ reason of those power boats and purse seines that that sport is being very much depleted. A few years ago it was not difficult to assure a visitor from the East that you coi Id take him out practically within the city limits ana hook him onto a salmon and give him as fine sport and he could find anywhere in the United States or perhaps a little better. How, if a person is wise or at all shrewd, he will go and try and assure the visitor that he will see some very interesting country, out that he does not know whether they will catch a fish or not. On last SAday afternoon I made a trip out there myself to sec the conditions. There was a boat seining on the beach between the pavilion LIr. Hays talked about ana the Point, the area he talked about today. I was out over that same area, the last time I went out in the evening, there were 2'c boats fishing. Those boats contained all of them one man and many of them two and from 4 o’clock until about nine, when they stGpped there were only five fish that were taken. It is a civic asset for our city, we feel, this portion of the pleasure ground out there, and protection is afforded to the people who go to the park and - 24 -stay upon the land, that they will not be annoyed, that their safety is assured, but the moment they ^.o upon the water their protection is entirely removed, not only irom their sport, but also actually their personal safety. A man who understands handling a boot very well can t^ke his chances of having it partly filled by these boats and ^et it out of the way, but there is a positive menace there all the time. How, there is another point that should be brought up in con ection with the work 01 the seii^ers. They dr^w their nets for the herrin^ and destroy the spawning grounds. uartermaster Harbor, Gig Harbor, Wollochet Bay around on the other side of the point, just across from Gi^ Harbor, have been spawning grounds for the herring. These men drag their nets and not only take the herring but den troy the e^gs which are laid there and the moss upon the rocks of the spawning beds and that of course deprives the salmon of their food. Those are conditions e-oing on tr.ere ri^ht 8lonfc. Then there is another condition developed recently. The Japanese from the city are now fishing with hock ana line in the Narrows for commercial purposes. Q With hook and line? A With hook and line for commercial purposes. They are coming in there pretty strong, hil of those conditions are depriving our city of one of its groat attractions and for that reason we are joining in with the park board and other civic bodies have met with us and indorsed this movement to put these restrictions there. e feel that the restrictions should ^o further than Hr. Hays has aks asked for. - 25 -TH3 C'iAIdl'AII: I do not know whether the powers of this board go sufficiently far to say that any particular nationality should not troll in a particular area. I think we can eo to the point to say that all must desist. 13. IJASOU: Do not misunderstand me as saying that any selection shoi-ld be made whatsoever. It is another phase of the commercial problem that exists around the Point. Q They are fishint for commercial purposes? A They are fishing for commercial purposes. They go out and fish and sell their catch. Q Are they operating mi the same area where the seines are opera ting? A Yes. Q If all fishing were prohibited in that area----------(interrupted) A Commercial fishing. Q That wor.ld eliminate all of the -Japanese fishing? A Yes. But we feel that the difficulties of establishing a line a half, or three-quarters of a mile, about there, while it would help a great deal it would be difficult to enforce. Fe have a condition at the mouth of Chambers Creek, which is just below Day Island. There is an area restricted about the mouth of that creek, but they sneak in and it is very difficult on what is an imaginary line -- (interrupted} Q Who sneaks in there? A The power boats $ Fishermen? A Fishermen. Q Seiners? A Seiners, that is what we are talking auout. - £6 -,v Well, you hi;ve talked about the Jap fishermen. A The Japs have only cone in recently What do they fioh with? A Just hock -lid line. ,Ve felt we would ask your consideration to establishing a line cors? the West Pass and at the head of Vashon Island. From our observations, following the run of herring and gulls, and the fish also, we believe that more than 65 per cent of the run of salmon comes down the West oass. A mao will show you that is a straight line and the tide channel. Then, from the other side of Vashon Island from Point Hobinson across to just about Des Moines, that represents the area that is being now built up sc extensively for summer homes, from Des Ivloines on that side. That not only would do away with these matters, but would allow the fish to cone in there, so there v/oild be a continuation of the sport and just a ruling on commercial fishing, not meaning any particular place and that would include also the hearing. f Would you mind when you get home just drawing oif on a map those d:f*ernet lines you have been talking about and forwarding them to us? A I would be very glad to, indeed. THE C HA I Hi.! AN: Mr. O’Malley, referring to your discussion on the hump-backs, shat were the conditions of the other species of salmon in for instance the Skagit river. LR. O'MALLEY: Fe operated at Barrington, in the early years, ran hatcheries on the Sauk river, and the salmon lift on Idlabct Creek and we discontinued our operations there and the same is true on Day Cree^, tributary of the Skacit, opposite Lyman. - 27 -Q Was that noticeable one yoer from another? A Uo, sir, just a gradual falling off, until we got disgusted trying to operate there and the expense was too much. i think the s-me is true of ilr. Darwin's hatchery 011 the Skagit river. .Vha t did you find on Hood’s Canal, the hr-tchery conditions there? A It has Lonc do/.n with a slump. THK CHAIT?!*AIf: Is there any one else hero who wishes to spe^k on the metropolitan park situation at Tacoma? - 2b -STATEMENT OP CHARLES A ZIEGLKR THE CHAIRMAB: What is your residence? A Salmon Beach, Tacoma, Washington. Q What is your business? A I have- a store and I am also taking care of boats Q All right, if you will just tell the hoard what you have to say? 4, What I wish to say is in regard to the protection of the herring of these harbors of Quartermaster, Gig Harbor and Wollochet Bay. There is no use trying to raise salmon without any thing for them to feed on and those harbors afford the natural spawning grounds if the herring are left alone. The harbor^ are in the neighborhood of 20 to 30 feet deep and the herring lay their eggs and fasten them on the moss. In the winter tine there is a bunch of seiners who attach their nets together and pull in these herring. They are fishing for salmon also and get a few salmon and small fish and I have seen as hIth as three to five tons of herring left in the net and the whole haul practically died. f Were they fishing for salmon or herring? A For salmon and smelt. Q Is Salmon Beach a smelt ground? A LTo, sir, there is nothing there in the line of spawning, because the tide is too fast. Q At this particular time you were talking about their hauling five ton of herring, what were they fishing for? A wishing for salmon and smelt with a drag seine. Q The smelt are there also at the same time? A ires, in the winter time. This was in the winter time, duringthe herring spawning season. Q In other words salmon, herring and smelt at the same point? A Yes, but net out in the open waters. p Where do those smelt spawn? A Quartermaster Harbor, in some places, but the moss is torn off, not allowing them any place to spawn their e^gs and the amount of fish they get for commercial purposes does not amount to very much and 1 think it should be stopped. Q Have you ever had any experience or ever noticed the effect of these beam trawlers, the ones that draw on the bottom for shrimp and 0round fish? A Yes, but I have never studied it very much. They worked further up around Fox Island. There are very few working now, There were three working there five or six years ago, wo rk ing c on t inu ousiy. Q Do you agree with Mr. Ha son? A Yes, we have 40 boats there, and we have campers, around IsG camps and they all have boats. Just yesterday we had a party from the fast that came here on a visit, and he brought his pole to catch salmon and he came down and asked for a boat and we gave him a boat, but v.'e could not assure him that he would csteh a salmon. p Power boat or row boat? A Yes, and we also had parties from the Columbia river come out there and row all day and never get a strike. Years abo they used to be able to catch five or six salmon. And the fish caught by the power boats do not amount to very much on this end. In the winter time only work a lew short shifts. - SO -STATEMENT JF H. L. HUBERTS THE CHAIRMAN: Where do you live? A Olympia. Q What is your business? A Fishing, smelt fishing, mostly. Q What go you fish with, what kind of gear? A B&e- nets, drag nets on the shore. Q ’/That kind of net did you say you used? A A drag-bag net, is what Mr. Darwin calls them. Q What months of the year do. you operate those? A From August until radically November. Q At what places do you operate? A In Olympia, Thurston and Mascn county and part of Pierce county, tat in some places where these gentlemen have b ee n t e s t ifyi ng about. Q You operate in the upper waters or above Point Defiance or above the Narrows, in those different bays and estuaries at different times? A Yes, si r. Q Do you haul your nets on the beach? A Yes. Q All right, now proceed. A Well, I wanted to say one thing, - it is absolutely impossible, to catch salmon with a net that catches smelt at the same time, because the salmon will break the net and go right through it. There must be some misunderstanding and that is why I wanted to question them about that. Q I think you misunderstood him. He said that they were using drag-seines, not drag-bag snins nets. - 31 -A Well, that is the same, drag seine or drag-bag nets. P There is a considerable difference between a drag-seine and a drag-bag net, not only in the shape, but in the size of the mesh ana the twine. The gentlemen has made a statement t>■ t he has seen salmon caught. Are you going to say tnat you think, thaa he didn't see them? A Well, big salmon is what I am talking about. Q He did not say what size salmon. Do you think that trie gent1emen i s m1st aken? A Yen, I believe so. Q You do not think that he ever saw them catch any? A Ho, sir. THE CHAIPMAN: .Veil I would hate to be in your state of mind, Mr.. Roberts. MR. ROBERTS: I do not think he has caught them ith a small meshed net. THE CHAIRMAN; lie did not say anything about the mesh or the twine. A Well, if that is the case I am mistaken You heard what he said about Quartermaster Harbor? A Y (3 s . f Do you fish there? A No, sir, that is not in our territory. Q Or Wollochet Bay? A U o, sir. Q Where do you come in on this Metropolitan park business? A Sell, I wanted to say that it is impossible to catch salmon with a small net. Q Sow, Mr. Roberts, let me ask you a question: If the fishing limits, the closed waters on the Upper Sound - 22 -were made at the Narrows could you operate your snu^ll bs£ nets without catching salmon? A From the Narros south? Q Yes, if the waters were closed for salmon fishing south of a line dr.-.wn across the Narrows at some particular point, that would not interfere with your business? A Yes, we woifm have to quit. Q Why would you have to quit? A Well*, that is where we operate, south of the water------------- (interrupted j Q I said for salmon only. A That would be all right. F That would not interfere with yair business? A No, sir. What Y.oudd you do to the herring fellows? A Well, F do not know as to herring south of that. There is only one place, Fteamboat Island spawning grounds. i How long have you fished in that sec lion? A hy borther and I about If years. He has fished longer than I ha ve. Q Is that all you wanted to say? A That is all on that subject. I guess that is about all there is . F Have you some other subject to mention? A I would like to know if there is t oing to be a closing of that Upper Sound. er gill-net, on the aouth Pork? A Well, it was very light, I should judge about 200. p Is that stream pretty strong on dogs? A Yes it i3 very strong on do^s, providing they can get in. fake last year when there was no profit, and the traps were open, you may say there were millions of dogs went up. Q How do you moan when you say when they can get in? A I mean when the traps and other gears are not running, of course it leaves them a free passage to the river. Of course at any time, it would at any time all (the other gears are cloned, if all the other geirs were cloned we all know that the rivers would be full of fish. Q It is the purpose of your association to fish for steel-heaas? A Yes Q How do they do on those? - 77 -A They do not do very much. A few of U3, I for one, fish one get net. Q How long a^o was that? A Last winter. Q, About what was your catch last winter? A I am not positive now, but I think I got 6b fish. I am not positive; it may have been 45, but then there were just a few fish. Q Were you long catching those? A It was in the open season. Q You had your set net in the water all that time? A Yes You fish with a set net for steel-hcads? A ¥es p And whenever you saw one in the net you took him out? A Yes p, So as a matter of fact fishin on the South ?ork is not very profitable, there? A No, sir, gill-netting is not very profitable at any stage. - 78 -STATEMENT OF C. II. ; HITING (Snohomish Comity Local No. 7, United Fishermen of the Pacific, Everett, Wa shineton j THE C HA Iff! AN: p Q Your home is at Everett, -Vashington? A Yes, sir. ^ How many fishermen in your organization? A It varies, but I believe at the present time there are about 50 Q What do they fish with? A Gill nets and set nets p How do the size, length and depth of the mesh compare with those on the Skagit? A Not very well, only in the matter of the size of the mesh, -probably there would be any comparison. Q Have you set nets? A I am not on active fisherman at the present time. Q I mean your organization? A Y e s Q They fish set-nets? A Yes Q What size are the set-nets? A In length? Q Yes? A They will vary from about three fathom to approximately IE fathom. The 12 fathom would be a pretty long net. ihere may be a few longer, but I would say they would be very vew, and I vould say there.would be more under ten than over 12, and I know of set-nets where the conditions - 79m-are such that about three fathom is about the limit and it is about the limit in shortness too, and seven or eight fathoms is a fair sized set net for the Snoho-rni sh. Q You use the same size mesh in the summer season? A Ho, 3ir Q What size do they use for King? A Running from eight and a quarter, and some use nine, I think, but I thinK about eight and a qua?'ter is the smallest during that period. Q What about the fall run? Do you catch any dogs? A The price is so low it is not worth talking about at all. The silver salmon nets, they are from six and a quarter, and there were a few used seven, and seven and a quarter but that is very rare and there is ^uite a number of six and a half and six and three quarter, six and one quarter There might be an odd net, say six inches, but they are fast going out. 3, How many fishermen are operating in the Snohomish river right now? A I could not say right now. The fishing there has not really started. My business there is buying those fish either as a wholesaler or buying them for canneries ana son on, and the canneries are not operating at this time and what they are producing they are marketing themselves. Q Mr. Vosgin would know more about the seasons than you would? A I started in as a fisherman in about 18i>2 or 18i>b on that river, and I have beeii at it more or less all the time, but the last 11 years I have been acting in the capaetiy of a fish de- ler and I have not missed a season - 60 -in dl years when there has heen any fishing on the sound, and adl of the seasons when there was enough fish to pay operating a buyer's boat. Q How much did the gill-netter get for his catch? How many fish would he catch in a season? A It would be hard to state. Q All right, how many pounds? A We might take, if you wish, what the river produces in spring salmon, for the river. Approximately we figure------------ (interrupted j CAPT RAMUS El L : Q What do you mean? A That is spring salmon TEE CHAIRMAN: What about silvers? A The silvers ran the lowest when I was buying as a buyer in 1917, I believe that was the last catch that we know of. That was about 2u,000 silver salmon Q, Twenty thousand fish? A Twnety thousand fish, in 1911, I think it produced 42,000 silvers. The largest production that I handled there was 58,000, ano the lowest 20, ,,00. There is a fluctuation one year from another, but we always assume that we are goin& to proauce, purchase, for any body's information, about 20,000 silvers. Q You bid all of these in? A Uot all of them, but for an number of years I have been practically the only buyer there. Q What percentage of the total catch on the river do you suppose goes through your hands, 90 per cent? A I would assume more than that, outside of last year. it - 81 -would only be a guess, but I would assume possibly 97 per cent. Q In other words you collected the fish, peid for the, and handled them? A Yes Q Who did you sell to A The Kverett Packing Company, the Ocean food Packing Company at that time, George and Baker, and Pacific-American and International fisheries, Clopeck, San Juan, and I believe LIr. Si s bought them one year. Q That was how many years ag,o? A good many years a6o? A Yes. I did net handle them at that time, and probably other firms have handled a proportion of this too, under contract. Q Now, we have settl d with the set-nets^ Now, about the gill-nets, you say there about 60 gil1-netters? A Well, now there are about 60 members, probably, now. Some years there are more than others. Q It is approximately 60? A Yes Q What are the sizes of their drift nets? A There are that many members, but probably all of them do not ^ill-net and possibly there are some who gill-net exclusively and some who operate set nets exclusively, and some do both, but the exact number I could not tell you, but in a great measure most of the set netters gill-net some. Q What is the size of their nets? A Well, further up the river, 1 should judge it will vary from 15 fathom to 20 fathom, somewhere along there. - 82 -Q The meshes, that yon mentioned? A ±es, the meshes, that is practically the same as the other About how many feet deep? A In the matter of spring salmon? Q Yes A Well, they run about 17 mesh, possibly a few a little shallower and up to possibly some will go 20. Q How I am going to ask you o question which is diverging somewhat from fishing conditions. Can you suggest to this board any reason in the world why either the Skagit or the Snohomish river should be allowed to be open to fishing when all of the streams in the state are closed? A Whp, they should be allowed to remain open? Q Why should they be allowea to remain open, yes? A Well, I do not know as they should be allowed to remain open if the board found it absolutely necessary to close them. It does not seem necessary or the legislature would have closed those streams, but why they did not find it necessary I do not know, probably from scientific research. THE CHAIPJvlAN: I can tell you the reason, because they did not have enough votes. A That might have haa something to do wi th it. THE CHAIHLIAN: The fish did not have anything to do with it at all, because I was there and I know. If there is any reason why we should do it we want to do it, but we do not want to do more than is necessary and do not want to treat anybody unjustly, but we certainly want to see those runs built up to something and I am firmly convinced in my own mind that on the i^orth and South Porks of theSkagit these men should be here today asking us to close that river for a limited time, providijig the proper res- trictions were put on other places and get this thing done and not on any penny-ante proposition. A ivlost every incividual group feels that their way is the proper way to do it. We recognize the fact that if the two streams ore closed there would be more fish reach the spawning grounds. We do not deny that fact at all. The matter of decrease in the rivers we could not see. We could not see in the Snohomish what the decrease would be in the run. fhe catch has been normal. How there is a fluctuation; this year it might be poor and next it might be better, but take it on an average and 1 have observed it for a good many years, there has been very little fluctuation. xhat is, it does not appsear to be on a downward traend all through on our catch. Now, we believe that by a proper closed season, and we believe that probably there should be more closed season we are anxious to see enough fish reach the spawning crounds, and our aritifi-cial hatching yolaces to perpetuate thi? run of fish. But, if in the judgment of this board it is absolutely neces -ary to close the Pnohomish river to conserve this run of fish, for God's sake close it. xhat is cur opinion. If we could convince this board that by some restrictions and permitting the taking of a normal amount of fish without our becoming a menace to the industry, we ask to be allow- ed to fish. Q That is just exactly the point we are trying to get toe A Yes. Slow, we might for a h&lf moment consider the hump- back salmon. The hump-back salmon we have never proouced.Q That is there is no rim in thriver? A Oh, ;>es, there has been a tremendous nn in the Snohomish river. ihe hump-back rrn there, at the time when the spring salmon run, they are using an eight and a quarter to a nine inch mesh and it is only now and then that you catch a hump-back and at the. time that they have changed gear for silver salmon, the hump-back run is past. lhere were I suppose hundreds of thousands of hump-back that went uu the Snohomish river. In the first place there was no aemand for river hump-backs on the market until during the war when 1he hump- acks were high and £hey seemed to be desirable. They went to 28 and SO cents, which seemed to make it profitable to fish for them. Several, but not many got gear to fish for hmmp-back at that price and made a complete failure of fishing in the season when they were sup'posed to run. Q With gill-nets? A With gill-nets, yes. They made a failure, because the hump -back had become extinct, you might say. ±here were a few. I believe the most successful fishermen there that season caught £00 hump-backs. It cannot be laid to the door of the Snohomish river fishermen that they are destroying then1, because when they got to where there was an advance in price for then, there were none to catch. We do not know what became of the, but we did not destroy them. Now my attention has been called to three sock-eyes caught on the Snohomish river, but we are not responsible for the depletion of that run, on the Snohomish. se believe that by a proper sized mesh and by a proper closed season that we will catch enough fish and that enough wil' get to - 65 -the spawning grounds hy the proper protection of immature salmon, hy stooping the destruction of immature salmon with such 6ear as gill-nets and seines, and allow those fish to mature and hit the river ano allow their quota to get hy and go up and s'pawn and thus perpetuate this entire run. If we are wrong, wo are willing to lay down at any time. All we ask is fairness in the matter and to given an opportunity to sell some of pur .junk ana get out. Q Have you any idea which of the tributaries of the Snohomish the hump-backs inhabit? A Tes, to some extent. Q Do they go into the Snoqualmie? A hot in great numbers. That is what I have been told For some years I have been up on what is called the lower spawning grounds for salmon and there were piles of humpback there. Q Where is that? A Anywhere from three to four miles below the mouth of the Snoqualmie river. And that has been a very good spawning ground for salmon. From that point up has been good spawn- ing ground icr hump-bacK and the spring salmon. Q What I want to find out is where those hump-back go. I want to know if you can tell us so that we can find what has caused the destruction? A Well , I assume that they ^o into the Skykomish. I have been up the Snoqualm-i 9 some, but the Skykomish is a pretty deep stream up for a good many miles. F Well, you do not need to pursue it any further along that line, I will get that from some one else. Is there any thing else? - 86 -A It might not be out of place I suppose and any information you might get, whether’good or bad would not hurt Q Anything that you think world be of benefit to this board we are glad to hear of? A This board is concerned with the hatching? Q No, we are not engaged in the hatchery business. The general state hatchery business, that does not come in our d epartment. A We have observed through a long time and knowing from the reports that there is only a small percentage of natural and a large percentage of aritificially hatched eggs--(interrupt ed^ C£HE CHAIRMAN: This all comes under Mr. Seaborg's and Mr. Darwin's department. A There is iust ore thing I wanted to sa^ . If it would be practical to take fish in the lower reaches of the river, probably, maybe several miles from the hatcheries, it they would be a conventient place to h Id those fish until they were mature and transferred the eggs in, if it would be practical, I believe fish in bunches for propagation could be taken on those lower grounds. CAPT. RAMWELL: Q Where would you take them? A I believe there is an ideal spot in Scretches riffle ana the slough called Creshel's slough Q Would you take them below the riffles?q A Anywhere below the riffles. I believe the best way to take them would be with a trap. THE CHAIRMAN: They are working along those lines now. - b7 -A Now, in the matter of conservation of fish,if we were allowed to continue we believe we should have a little more closed season, for instance from the first day of March to the 15th day of July, so that any spring salmon running in that time would have a good opportunity to get up the river. The water is up pretty well and they would have a good chance to go, and we believe that the season should be closed from the first day of November until the first of December. That is ten days more generally per year. q When? A I am speaking of the Snohomish river. That should be closed from the first day of March until the 15th day of July for spring salmon and from the lirst day of November to the first day of December in the fall. After that the run is about gone. Q You usually close on the tenth of November? A Ten days is quite a bit. Q But you say from the first of November until the first of December? A Well, that is not adding anything to the closed season, only it is setting the season back into the silver salmon season. It is not many from the cenners and dealers standpoint, but it is quite a few when it comes to the matter of hatching. Q Wouldn't the early fish be the best fish to go up? A No, sir, I think the late run would be better. The water woiId be in better condition for them to get up and they would be just as good for propagation and if you are going to take any, why not take the choice fish for commercial - 66 -purposes? If we thought that there was going to he enough silver salmon to up after the first of November, make it the tenth of December, as it is new, instead of setting the season back, extend it ten days. Q But you close on the tenth of November now? A Yes, but I mentioned the first of November. Make it the first of November on that stream. Q But the run is over then? A Not necessarily. Q Practically over? A Well, the biggest part of it is over, .jut there is a lot to go up. Q As a matter of fact you don’t get many after the first of Novemb er? A Never quit yet until the tenth of November. Q But the runs are getting mighty thin then? A Yes, that is true. Q And the fact is th? t the evidence that we have had given up to date is that the best fish to spawn are the first fish to go up? A That mieht be a fact, I could not dispute that, Capt. Ramwell. - 89 -STATEMENT OF GEORGE VOSGEN (Snohomish, Wash) THE CHAIRMAN: Q What do you know about these humpbacks, George A Well, I can tell you that I caught sc many hump-backs that I got tired picking themoout of the nets, when I could not sell them, and 1 told the Indians to taae them. Q When was this A In 1917, when they were worth money I fished so--when I fixed the nets so that I could catch them in 1917, they were worth 28 cents, and in 1919 they were woth rcO cents, and I got cl cents when I fished for them. Q What size mesh did you use? A Six and a quarter Q What kind of net? A Setfenet CAPT. RAMWELL: Q Where is your location? A About a mile and a half below Snohomish, what they call Fishermen’s Bend. THE CHAIRMAN: Q You don't know where the natural spawn!rig bed is on the Snohomish and the tributaries of the Snohomish? A Yes, I spent 20 years as a fisherman on that river, and as Mr. Whiting siad the best spawning ground is from the forks down to Scretches riffle and sometimes they even spawn lower in the low water. In high water they will go up, further up the Skykomish, about Pilchuk. Q, What became of all of these humpbacks? - 90 -A I could not tell you, They are tone. q Where do you think they went? A I suppose they must have been caught outside, is the only thing I can think of. They did not come up the river, I know that much. Q What season do they spawn on the riffles? A In September and sometimes part of October. Q What is the period of the lowest water in the river? A Yes. In August they are going up and in September you will find them on the riffles there. Q And along comes the freshets later? A Yes. Q And away ^oes the salmon eggs? A Yes. Q Have you seen the freshets washing them down the river, A Yes, I have seen the freshets washing down the river and I suppose they wash them off. ^ You heard the discussion as to these rivers being permit- ted to remain open when the others have been closed ? A Yes Q What do you think about that? A I am of the same opinion, if you have become convinced that is absolutely necessary, to close these rivers, close them. Q Have the fishermen on your river got all of their bear for this year? A Most of them bought last year for this year. Q Have you got any of those two thousand dollar houses there? A Uo, sir. Q You are not as lucky as Mr. Larson? - 91 -A I do not know of one over there. Q If it should be found that where the fish can be benefited for closing for a period after those men were allowed to wear their gear out, they would not be so bad off as they will be in the future? A Excepting that some of them have paid as high as two thousand dollars for their fishing locations. Q Here is another thing: It would not be a loss unless the river was closed for all time to come and that is something for the future. Gan you think of anything else you want to say? A ho, sir, except to get all of the seals, get after them as hard as possible, I think they are the great fish destroyers. Q The fellows up on the Snohomish river, up in your section, what do they mostly devote their attention to when they are not fishing? A Most of them are farmers. There are a few that make a regular business of fishing. I am one of them. Probably a dozen make a regular business of fishing. Q The rest of them are farming and doing odd jobs in con.junc tion? A Yes. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Now, gentlemen, most of you here are all more or less interested in fish from one point of view or another. There are others here who have a public interest. Most of you have listened to what the different ones have had to say as to the condition of the fish, the prospects for the future and you all know where the home of the - 92 -exists. We appreciate the fact that it does not mane any difference what side of the question we take on this tributary proposition, we will either displease or please, but that does not make any difference to us. .'.’hen we do take action we want to take the proper action, on the right side. How, why you have all heard from the gentlemen representing these rivers. We want to be fair to them and we want to be fair to the industry , fair to the public and fair to the fish. Now, I am f ring to ask for an expression from you. There are two rivers now in this state which are still open, the Snohomish and the Skagit, and the balance are practically all closed. 1 am going to ask you if you favor the closing of those streams, providing sufficient consideration is given to the amount of equipment that is in use and which would be a loss to the men who are now engaged in the business and I want all of you gentlemen here who are in favor of closing all of the tributaries of .the state, with the qualification that consideration will be given to those who are fishing in streams not now closed, to please rise (Whereupon a rising vote was had and Hr. Darwin announced the following result: For Closing: 45 i:g a ins t Closi ng : 21 THE CHAIRMAN: The next question will be the question of the seasons. I stated to you this morning that Canada is not going tc co-operate with the state toward securing uniform regulations. Now, if there is any one here who has anything to say on the subject of the presentseasons, either extending or restricting them, please come forward. (Ho response) THE CHAIRMAN: Several years ago it was proposed in a con- ference that a progressive weekly closed season he put in operation for the sock-eyes on their way to the sea from the Fraser river, the season to commence somewhere westerly of the San Juan Islands and ending at the mouth of the river. At the present time there is .just one closed season. Has anybody anything to say on that? What have you to say upon that, Fr. Berry? MR. BERRY: From the purse-seiners standpoint, we would be perfectly willing to agree to any restrictions, provided British Columbia -------(interrupted) . THE CHAIRMAN: Well, British Columbia would not have to join in with us on this at all. It is up to us to -either make another definition of the dead-line or two dead-lines. Has any one anything to say about the hump-back season? MR. IU. WELCH: (Of the Bellingham Canning Company, Bellingham, Washington) As regards the hump-backs, the market conditions are going to protect the hump-backs. There will not be any fishing for hump-backs because there will be no sale for them. They are selling today for 80 cents a dozen. It is obvious that there will not be any caught to sell, because there won't be anything in it. I think the protection is with us right now. (General discussion) (Mr. Welch, in answer to the statement of the Chairman with respect to a progressive closed season for the sock-eye area, commencing around San Juan Islands, and ending at - 94 -the mouth of the Fraser river, stated that he did not believe it would be feasible on account of the movable gear following the fish from one area to another, and in lieu of this program he suggested that the present weekly closed season for this area be advanced a sufficient time to allow the fish to enter the .Fraser fiver waters at the time of the commencement of* the closed season at that place. FIR. LARSON: (Mt. Vernon; The present closed season on the Skagit river does not cover the silver run MR. WELCH: I understand from statements made that the strongest fish are the earliest fish and that it would be a wise provision to absolutely close the waters from the 15th to the end of September. We protect the dogs after the 10th of November amply. We have no protect for the silversides at all. I think if we protected them from the 15th to the end of September they would have ample opportunity to get up. MR. C. C. NELSON: For my part I believe that the weekly season of one or two days is best, because the fish makes it from tidewater above where we are allowed to fish in £4 hours, consequently if the fish is allowed to go every week-----sometimes we are closed when there is a big run and the fish-----or we are allowed to fish when there is a big run, and no fish get up. Now, maybe next season it changes and the fish do not get a chance to get up, no matter if you only allow us one day to fish, by taking it every week, every time the fish comes into Sandy hay, they have a chance to get up to spawn. THE CHAIRMAN: How long have you seen the fish lying outside - 95 -of the South and Worth Fork around Utsiladi before they attempted to go up the river? A It depends upon the water. When the water rises the fish come up. Q How long a period was the loiigest period that you have ever seen fish lying out there "before they went up? A fear before last there was no dogs came up until after the season was closed. xhere were no dogs caught on the Skagit river year before last. Q They were lying outside? A Yes, sir. Q Ready to come up? A Yes. THE CHAIRMAN: In other words there should have been a closed area outside where those fish were so the fish could be protected in the closed area ana could come up when the season was right? MR. FRANK BERRY: (Representing the American Purse-Seine Fishermen’s League) Regarding the situation at Point Defiance Park in Tacoma, Mr. Ciiairman and Members of the Board: I would say that it would be rather unfair to attempt to rule out any commercial fishing in the interests of a few people who are engaged in catching a few salmon for sport. The West pass and Point Defiance park area there produces hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fish that would never bite a hook, regardless of how many people would fish for them, and I am referring to the dog salmon, which will not bite at a hook and that is one of the best areas for dog salmon during the fall. I have noted that since this commission - 96 -went into effect there has 'been a ruling made that there shall be no fishing for trout at this year--------- (interru pted) THE CHAIRMAN: Q You mean young salmon trout? A Yes, after May of this year. how, having that closed for good or.for years, I do not see that the power boats or the purse-seiners vill interfere with those districts, because the only tinae there are any spring salmon is when those fishermen will come out, during the spring and summer months, and that is the time the purse-seiners will fish there, and the other fishermen will not be allowed to fish for those small salmon after this last year. They commenced fishing for a few silvers of which there are not many there, around the first of September, only until about the middle of January, when the season closes. All of those boats at Point Defiance pav- ilion and Spring .Beach and Salmon Beach are all hauled up when the season gets bad ana they ao not go out in those boats and I do not believe any Eastern visitors would want to go out for sport at that time of the year. Q Did you hear the statement made by Senator Nichols that in their investigation of ways and means for giving the fish more protection in their natural homes that they had arrived at the conclusion 4hat in the closing of streams that the areas in front of the rivers where the fish congregate before going up should also be closed? A I heard part of his statement. I have heard Senator Nichols make that statement before. I really think that if proper closed seasons are adopted for all classes of - 97 -gear, in all districts, during particular times of the year, as the fishing seasons vary, by closing all of the rivers in this state, and doing away with the taking of young salmon and with a proper system of propagation, I do not see any re> son for that kind of a system, closing the areas in front of the rivers, being adopted. Q Well, you know that in Hoods canal and even in the upper sections of the Sound, Hat Island, and other sections of the Sound, where at times the fish will come in and lay for weeks, that they do that before the natural tendency to start for the spawning ground comes over them. Now, it seems to me that there should be at least some protection given, maybe not the same amount of protection as in the rivers, but there should be an effort to at least keep some fish in reserve somewhere so that they may be protected until the natural inclination strikes them to move? A It seems that way to me, but by closing that particular district, during the time while those fish are still running, it would ^ive ample time for sufficient numbers of them to enter these rivers and have plenty for propagation purposes. You are well aware of the fact that there are a good amny big salmon running after November 10th. By having a universal closed season in the Sound a great many big salmon in the Sound are in the vicinity of those streams that will enter those streams and rivers if the laws prohibit the fishermen from catching them. Q The trouble about that is this: You take for instance Hood's Canal, and I know that better than any section, if the streams are at a certain point, the fish will go up - 98 -156635 earlier than at other times. Sometimes that happens before the closed season and sometimes after it and the streams in many instances are in such a condition that the fish con'd not go up, although inclined to go up, so they must lie outside somewhere. It seems to me that there should be some restricted areas where the fish would be free to .go, up when they, are ready to go. A Hood’s Canal is pretty much of a stream, i t self, and I think closing it or up to a certain point, there would be a place where they will escape to go up. There are other districts, say south of Tacoma, some particular point, where there are a good many bays and inlets, above Steilacoom, or above McNeil’s Island, where there are practically natural spawning grounds for those fish, say Bud Inlet, Hanson Bay, north Bay, Gray’s Inlet, and all of those provide a good place for the protection of thC3e salmon ana if those were left alone there would be enough natural propagation besides the artificial propagation, I f'eel sur^, to insure a run for a good many years. Q You know of Paulsbo and around Charleston, those inside places there? A Yes, and Bremerton and Chico, most of those, the fish are practically unfit for food. They have canned them in previous years, but the fish today are not worth hardly anything and I think if those places were closed that there would be a good many fish spawn with natural propagation and with the hatcheries there would be plenty of salmon eggs out of those salmon, if they would get after them.Q Do you agree with Mr. Welch on the hump-back situation, that the market situation at the present time and the cut-1ook for the future is sufficient to maintain a supply of fish on the spawning ^rounus this year, of that fish? A I do. Q What do you think about fall fish, say silvers? A Well the silvers of course are used pretty much by the fresh fish dea]ers on the Sound here. Of course I do not think the canners will make very much of an attempt to buy them at the price which will make it profitable for the fishermen to c tch them. The gear costs sc. much and the prices that the canners can pay are not sufficient to insure the fishermen going after them. But I want to correct my statement. We must not look at this particular year. Next year or the , ear after next the demand might be much greater and the price would be greater, so it would be really unnecessary tc close fishing absolutely, just because the fish are not in demand. I feel that if the fish are not in sufficient demand tc warrant a man >oing out after them he will not co out to catch them. What do you think of fir. Welch’s statement of advancing the whole weekly closed area sufficient to allow those fish to eet into that open block on the Fraser river? A That is correct. I agree with that. I would be heartily in favor of a closed season on top of the closea season, November 10th, throughout the whole year. Have you changed your mind on this subject since 191.6? A No, sir; not altogether. I was very much in favor of a - 100 -weekly closed season then, but we found that closing trie season at tie end of the particular fishing season which would give the fish say ten or fifteen days to enter the rivers, was probably better, but I \ ould say on top of that, and I think the fishermen would back me up, a weekly closed se; son would be much more beneficial to the industry • THE CHAIRMAII: One of the arguments which added strength to the situation v.ss that the weekly closed season was of practically no benefit, because when the iish did come into these enclosures, or the places in front of these streams that they remained there for a considerable time before they were even ready to go up; that when they got ready, got to the point when they were fit to (;o up or in a condition to spawn, the inequality of having a different season a hundred miles away and the different fish branching off in different directions, that they v.ere naturally heading, that ths t sort of weekly closed season was inefficient and that the best thing to do was to take the time when they were closest to the spawning grounds. How, it may be that the seasons we have arrived at to allow the fish to go up are not satisfactory, but I have not changed my mind as to the two methods. A The present is the best if you have the proper seasons, but on top of that I no not believe the weekly season would do any harm. Borne in one district that might not be caught today would be caught tomorrow, but the fish coming near the prohibited district of the river is the fish that is going to escape. Q You remember another point was that if we kept on elimin- - 101 -atin£ there would dp so much eliminating that there would not be any fish left for anybody A Well, the fishermen are willing to have a weekly closed season, during the whole year, on top of the present refculations. Q .' when do yos fish for perch? A In the winter tine, November and December. Q What other fish 6;; yen finh for? A Smelt is the main thmig we fish for. Q Row many perch will you catch? A 'l1 ha t depend3, 30me „ ctrs wc do not get any and some years a few. Q Wha t do you call a few? A A few hundred pounds. Q Even if you were stopped from getting those few hundred p0und s tha t w0u 1 un’t hurt y 0u9 A Well, there are a number of boys fishing. About November is the end oi the smelt run ana we take a shot at perch for two or three months, flounders ant soles and things 1 iaft tiiat. Q And , ou use dr^g seines from the beach? A Yes. - 114 -STATEisOHT Oi?’ COL EM AH fUEEU (Ana c or t e s , 17a sh) THE CHAIRMAN: What is your business? A Cannery business, Anacortes. Q Salmon canning? A Yes Q, Where 00 you reside? A Anacortcs Q All right, proceed. A Just a few words 1 i th regard to the salmon laying around the mouth of the Skagit river, in particular. We have handled the fish fron the °kagit river and from part of the traps inside of the pass during 1917, IV-18, and 1919 a nd w e find th; t t h e 0 1 y f i s h t h at 1 a y a r o u n c» t h e m 011 th of the river there very Ions is the dog. fin e springs and t he silvers-I i n t e r 1 u p t ed / q now do you fine the young silvers? A vVe did not find any young silvers, not. very such young fish of any kind. <4 Most of your operations around the mouth of the river are in the fall? A Well, we caii spring salmon out of there, too. a The season for the young silver salmon for being in those waters is practically right now. They are just auout ready to g.o to sea now? A Well , I have seen the little fellows around in those waters, about an inch long, but I never have seen any larger ones. There are the fish they are catching there new? (Indicating )A Inside the pass? Q Yes A We have n trap in there and we are net catching anything like that. The;; must be fishing south of the liar th Fork, down in around U'tsiladi. I have no recollection of seeing them fishin( in the inner! ate vie ini t; of the mouth of the Uorth Fork. I have seen very few ish of that size in there, but s I sa; we . ot the fish in 1917, 1916 and 1919 and ve ca aried fresh fish from three of the traps cut of there last year for °e* tile. There arc very few small fish in that i^ediate neishl rhord. As to the vicinity further south I do net knew anything about that, but we have noticed that when there was a rim of fish strike the traps outside, inside of Deception fa so, in a few days they were up in trie river. Q You heard the questions and ansvere on the general fishing c-onditi'ns, closed seasons and so on? A Yes, sir. Q Do you generally agree with the answers? A sell, I believe that there should be a cloned season to conform on the sock-eyes along the lines as Mr. vVelch nut it, I believe‘it is cotter to have a cl sod season all over, nut advance it so that the sock-eyes would have a chance to get up near the Fraser river by the times that the season in closed up there so that they could get by. Q In other words to try and match their season? A Yes. Q Is there anything else? A That is about all escept that we find on the inside of - 116 -the par;3 and the Skagit the fisr ’nave been incre sing, tha t is on the ^orth fork, iron lbl7, 1^10 and 1 (j 1 (o a What kind of fish have i-jen increasing? A Spring salmon Q What about c i1ver s? A Silver salmon have been just at out as usual, I euess. Q What? A The silver salmon have not decreased very much i Have not decreased? A They may imve ween.ased some, hast year ran a poor year from the fact tin. I they did not have any zreshet in the river and I think a ; ocd many of the Spring salnon went up the other way. a Jere you he e this morning when lir. O’Malley made his s ta t ement? A Yes. Of how much the egg take had decreased? A Tea ^ iDo t/ Oh think that is generally correct? A V?ell, i do not know anything about the conditions, or what conditions they were working under. ft is very probable that they have decreased. I do not know what the percentage is as to the females in these three years I have reference to. This was the egg take that he. was referring to A fes, 1 know it was the egg take that he was referring to. Q Is there anything else? A That is all. TiS CHAIRMAN: Thank you. - 117 -STATEUE1JT OF R. p. HALL. (R. P. D. #4, Box £1, Seattle. THE CHAIRS All: Q Whs t is our business? A Fisherman, nave been until lately, but I have been legislated out of -the business. m. >vha t kind of gear d 1 d you oper^ te? A Hold on, wait h minute. I gue s I will be on the county pretty soon, if you stop me from fishing. THE CHAIHSiAH: You hold on. We may stop you from talking, p Do you fish with a pole or a puse-seine? A no, sir, with a ill-net. p Where do you operate? A I did operate in the Duwamish river. q When did you operate there last? A in lyib. The; closed the river - nd that out me out of c onmissi on. Q Wrum have you to say about that now? A I wish to say that it should be opened up. p You want the river opened up? A Why shouldn't it be open? p You tell me that. A Well, I will ask ^r. Darwin a couple of questions if y ou wi11 allow me. 1HE CHAIRMAW: You w 111 not ask Mr. Darwin any thing. Tell to is board what you want done. A Well, closing the rivers, twelve of us old men fished there for about 2C odd years,did net make much but we kept out of the noor house by fishing and what is going to become of us I don't know. - lib -THE CHAIR)'AN*. It is unfortunate t at a lot of the boys got caught in the squeeze. A And it runs to ray mi ad that in the fishing: business it is the 8mt.ll nan that gets the squeeze. Just what do you mean by that? A Putting the small man out of business by closing the rivers, sure, that is what I me an by that. 3 You have seen this audience here today? A Yes, sir Q Ton have been here all day? A Yes Q Have you seen any blooded aristocrats around here today? A I have seen a lot of fishermen that were fishing and had big gears, operating big gears. C In otherwords anything that is silowed to fish, any one who has any epripnent larger than yours is in the big class9 Q v!hz , I consider him in the big class, sure. I consider a purse-seiner or trap man in a bigger class than I am. THE CHAIRIdAN: I am going to be frank to say to you, i,Ir• Hall, that as long as I am a member of this board, and as long as I see the conditions existing in the riveis, as they e*ist today, and particularly the Duwaraish, it will remain closed. I may not have this job very long, but I am trying to see it as I think you would try to see it. if you were in my position. I have no axe to grind one way or the other, excepting to try to make provisions for more fish than there are today. A I want to see more fish too. x.ast year in Suiz Creek hatchery, a tributary to Green river how many salmon - 119 -was hatched?' T :TE CHAIPliA.il: (Referring to papers; Five hundred and seventy- three thousand. MB. HAIL: Is that a fact? THE CHAIRKAli: Well these are the figures. I was not there to 3ee them. HR. HALL: I am goin^< to tell you something: I was there last Uov ember, Armistice Lay, when there were big doings and got off the 1rain at the hatchery and walked over to the hatchery and there was not a silver egg in the hatchery, a few spring salmon and about two or three million trout eggs. That was in Suiz, last November. Q What is the point? A That is the point, that there were no silver salmon hatched in the Suiz Creek hatchery last year. Q Isn’t that another argument in favor of keeping the river closed? A Well, if they did not cet them there when they had the river opened---------(interruptedj Q In other words they did not get any when it was closed? A ilo, sir. y And we would get that many le^s if it were opened? A I was surprised, *ir. Sims, I went up there just on purpose to see that hatchery, knowing that the river was closed, expecting to see a lot of silver salmon s there and not one e&g there, not a dog salmon egge either. THE CHAIR. IAJ1: (Referring to papers) I will have to apolo- gize to you I was looking at the figures for another hatchery. You are correct; there were no silvers; (see records in secretary’s office, which show that through - 120 -error 4,000,000 silver salmon eggs taken at this hatchery were not indicated oh tabulated statement referred to by the Chairman ) MR. HALL: I know I am correct, I would not lie about what I saw with my own eyes. What makes me ask this qi^estion is this: Last fall there were lots of salmon up here where I live, about three miles south of here, at Abrahamson’s brick yard, there in the waterway, south of Spokane Avenue, there were lots of salmon there. Q Silvers? A Yes. Q But there are a good many tributaries to that siver? A Not many now. Q How about the Green river? A How far is it? By the interurban or by the railroeid it is 21 miles to Auburn and Suiz Creek is about four miles pretty nearly east of ubu f THE CHAT a'All: I wan. to give all of you gentlemen every courtesy but so far as this hatchery business is concerned, outside of our being interested in seeing the hatcheries effective and seeing that the fish get to them, so far as this board is concerned, it is absolutely beside the question. The question with jou is whether you are going to be allowed to fish in the Luwamish river? A Yes. THE CHAIRMAN: We made an order the other day extending the present closed season. Under the act of the legislature the river was closed by the fish commission some years a&o I don't know when, and expired this June, the first of this June. This state board of fisheries rad extended that - 121 -time, and as I made the statement before, until I can see it in a different light than now, and as long as I remain on this board, if the conditions remain the same as they are now, it is going to stay closed. A I will ask you where the mouth of the Duwamish river is? Is'. "DARWIN: Right at the pier head on harbor Island. A Well, is it not a fact that the waters in the city of Seattle, are outside of the jurisdiction of the state? THE CHAIHMA.il: Not for this purpose, Mr. Hall. A There is a city ordinance which was passed by the city of Seattle that all waters in the jurisdiction of the city limits are closed from fishing. THE CHAIFMAN: Well, I can say this, Mr. Hs11, that these Xing county fellows, with the exception of a few of my friends here, will cover lots of territory, particularly the legislative body of the city of Seattle, but I think they are out of their jurisdiction when they talk about the taking of fish out of salt waters, Elliott Bay or the Duwamish either. A Well, they stopped them. THE CHAIRMAN: Well that is all right; they did good work. Now, Hr. Hall, we are not going to open .,01.1' river for you, I regret to say. I hate to do any one an injury. The injury was done to you before we took office and it Is going to remain and the chances are you will have to get along for the next few years as well ns you got along in the past and you have all of my best wishes. MR. HALL: Thank you. - 122 -STATEMiiMT OF B. I1HYES (Ballard, Wash.) THE CHAIRMAN: Yon represent the Independent Fishermen? A Yes Q What do they operate with? A A gas Jooat and hook and line. IIovv many to the boat? A Six lines to the boat. q What size spoon? A They vary. They use--well , you may say the lar&e major- ity of them make their spoons, but the majority of them are larger than a IJumber 7, and they are trolling this time of the year, they are trolling with £5 pounds of lead and try!is to tet as deep as they possibly can, if there are any spring salmon, to catch them. They have not been catching many springs; in fact they have net been out to amount to anything, but the Japanese fishermen 011 the British side ( interrupt ed ; S. I am not asking you anything about the Japanese fishermen. I asked you about what size spoon. Just kindly confine your answers to the questions. Bo they fish vith a spoon that corresponds to a -lumber 7? A Yes, and larger Q ror the fall fish as well as the sprint? A For the fall fish--no, they use about a Uumber 7 of l^te. Last year I 6uess about a Humber 7 spoon was the smallest spoon I used. How long have you been fishing, Mr. Meyer? A About six years. - 125Q How long have you resided in this state? A The same length of time. Q What nationality are you? A An American. Q Where were you born? A I was born in fngland Q You were naturalized here? A Through my father. I was brought here when I was 22 months old. y Was your father naturalized? A He, was. p Have you operated these trollers for six years? A Just about. Q $ou are now talking about cape fishing? A Adout cape fishing. p You want to confine yourself to the outside waters? A The outside waters. I have never fished inside. Q How many fishermen are there in your organization. A About four hundred p About 400 men? A A o ou t 400 b oa t s. Q How many men to the boat? A Pell, some boats have two men, that is the largest number, but last year the most of them operated with one man, the owner himself. Q I presume your interest today is on account of the order that this board made some weeks ago? A You mean closing the season from July? Q, Yes A Practically. - 124 -That will affect your interests will it? It will. Where do you mostly fish? We fish mostly off Swiftsure and Ucuelet. How no yon do any fishing on a line from Baadah head across to Port San Juan out to the international boundary line? 17o. Do you do any iishing there along the shore south, within three miles of the shore? iJ o , sir. So then, the order that ve made in that territory does not affect your situation? Oh, I mi sunders tooc,it then. I understood that it did and that is whet all of then are holding back lor this y ear. They are generally all cut there at this time-----------well, I was out there three weeks EgC and there were not boats in the ba;, . HE CHAIRMAN: Well, I had better make another statement. In creating this board by the legislature they were confined to to the waters of the state which tax.es in up/the three mile limit excepting the Columbia river, which is governed by a compact between the states of Washington and Oregon. Fe are restricted there and our jurisdiction soes not cover that. I think what you objected to was an act of the legislature prohibiting the importing of fish from outside of the three mile limit? Yes. HE CHAIRMA1J: There has been a misunderstanding as to just exactly, or how for, or what our action was, and I willtry to straighten the t our so the. t ycu v. ill .mow: Sec. 65 Chap. 1, Laws of 1915, has been amended to reed as follows: Section 65. It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to purchase, handle, deal in or have in his possession, an;, food fish of any variety v/hich were taken from the waters of this state during any of the closed seasons prescribed in this act, or which may hereafter be prescribed by the state fisheries board no any person who purchases, handles, deals in or has in his possession any such fish during such periods, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor . ilow, all that means is this, that ^ ou are not prohibited from fishing I see. However, I believe that you are prohibited from possibly selling to these dealers, I do not knov. about that. That is strictly a legal proposition, now the fishermen on the Columbia _iver, I do not know whether all of the fishermen on the Columbia river had a suit instituted in Oregon and I presume both sides joined, but they started a suit and I believe got an injunction against the fish warden, or whatever his title is down there, enjoining him from putting into effect the legist tion passed by the Oregon legislature, which not only includes this, cut 'ncludes t e three mile 1 i r i t , so it istrictly 5.n my imtgrent, largely a legal question. I really believe you cou d go out no fish tomorrow and deliver your fish to British Columbia, providing of course that there are no restrictions on the Canadian side. How, you go ahead, an see if we can straighten out your troubles. Well, the main thing I wanted to say is that the Japanese fishermen on the British side fish on the snme grounds as we do and the large majority of our fishermen have stayed in and have not prepared to get out there before July, misunderstanding this and the Japanese have been fishing since February on the same grounds as we fish and sending their fish to Seattle here. You can see the Japanese - 126 -boats on the halibut exchange an;, day you wish to go down there. Now, we are prohibited from selling that fish in here, as that law says. riHE C HA I Pot AN: Ve cannot stop then. '.7e have nothing to do with that. That was passed by the legislature. Now, if you am dissatisfied, or if you think that the law is unconstitutional or class legislation, you must pursue the same tactics that they did in Oregon. The chances are that it will not be necessary, excepting that you might get an injunction anc proceeded to fish. You could have followed the same course, gone into court and asked tha t the director or a dm’ nistra tion forces of the fisheries department be restrained from interference until the meat of the case was decided. We could not change this. it is s lew made by the State legislature and cannot be changed by us. A Here is another thing I wish to bring out before the commissioners, that 75 per cent of the fish caueht on the cayoe does not come to Puget Sou.nd. p That is, you mean the fish, those are not tributary to this section when they are . oing to their home streams? A Yes. They are Bri tish fish. The King salmon go us here, Barclay Sound ana go into these lakes here. (Indicating on map.) THE CHAIRMAN: Now, I am glad you brought \g that question. We have had this subject up, not for the reasons that bring you here, but for other reasons. There has been a resolution intro uced in congress aaking for a convention for the purpose of securing a treaty for regulating - 127 -the fisheries in coastal waters. A representative of the government was ) ore and we discussed with him the very things that yon are talking about now. As a matter of fact, the very lakes that yon are pointing out have a distinct run, each and every one of them, and some of them are partly seeded. If you are acquainted with the conditions at Bamfield, the Bamfield district, you know they arc catching a spring salmon down at Bamfield that does not exceed that length. (Indicating) The only tnine I can go by now is \ hat a fisherman told me when I was over there getting my bait for halibuting T.nd he told me that they were all catch' nc large salmon. As far ay actually seeing, I do not know, but I know that the finest and best fish that is caught, that is outside, in the ocean, is caught on the 40 mile bank off Ucuele t. Do you anow l.ir. Payne? no, sir. FE C HAI Fi-AH: Mr. Payne is a representative for the Uew England fish Company., in Vancouver, the fciggest one in western Canada, and an American concern I believe. LJr. Payne is their representative and does the handling and buying of all of the fish on the west coast, excepting a few little cargoes that you are talking about that have been , oing into Beattie. Of the cargoes going into Beattie at least one or two boats are being operated by my brother, so I am fairly well informed on the British Columbia situation. We were trying to find out where those fish off the 40 mile bank came from, whether they were tributary to British Columbia, or whether they were - 126 -tributary to Pueet Sound and after discussing with him the varieties or types of the fish, color and weight and texture of the flesh, we came to a conclusion that a very few of them were tributary to Puget Sound. Ur. Payne said that in their investigation of the conditions on Vancouver Island that the^ had not found any actual spawning grounds for the fish that were on the 40 mile bank, that they Lad found traces in the different lakes and streams ant; tiat the^ get into the streams and passed along the coast and today it is an absolute mystery where the 40 mile fish belong, but there will bo sent out by the federal government in a few days, a new force in that work, to try to determine wher* the different fish of the same suecies belong. A Well the 40 mile fish are found, they were found five years ato, by iieah Bay trcllers. They were out halibuting and there was a tremendous run of fish, There waslife all over the 40 mile bank. In February of nexj year the Japanese left the Fr.ser river and went fishing in Barclay Sound. The next year the 40 mile fish were not in such large numbers, but they made tremendous catches in Barclay Sound', off Ueuelet and off Cape Beal , and they were of the same species of fish and had red salmon mingling in with the white. The same thing ha3 taken place every year, that they start out in February and they take a large amount ±e of that fish, which is their best season, and the 40 mile bank, from year to year has not had that fish at that time that we .have caught them. THE CHAIRMAN: This is very interesting but if you will tell - 129 -us where we have any connection wit- the 40 mile limit we will be glad to listen to yon. A Well, how much of the fish outside of Cope Flattery is going to help build up Puget Sound when only S5 per cent of the fish come to Pufcet Sound? That is the thin6 I was getting at, and the trollers are not responsible for this decrease in fish. A troller catches only one salmonat o tine, on a jigger, and you toxic the rest of your gear and wha t do they catch? And yet the scientists will come up and tel"1, you that the trollers are the most destructive. p Do you believe that the scientists know their business? A I used to quote them all the time, but since I have been fishing and have read some of their reports and heard them spe>ik before the legislature, I don't know. a You have opened many salmon yourself? A Yes, I have. p would you say that if you were to open a salmon that from ,,oi r knowledge and experience in fishing that you could arrive at a fair conclusion from your experience as to about the period of time that fish ought to spawn or about what condition it is in? A no, sir, I could not say. that I coi.lu catch a fish out there at that time of year and could determine wnat time he i3 going, to spawn. Well you could tell whether he was ready or not ready to spawn? A I could tell whether he was ready to spawn, yes, from trie size of the eggs and that is all. That is about the only way they can tell. When you want to know if a cow is going to have a calf, you watch how she £ ISO -has grown. A I would net want to oat the cow fter it had had a cadf. THa CHAI'-alAH: In an investigation, as the result of investigation which has heen mace, it has been claimed by Professor Rich, of Stanford University, and every fish man in this work, in an investigation off the Columbia river it was found that in the early parts of the fishing season, I presume that would be maybe along in the latter part of June or maybe the middle or latter -part of July, that of the fish taken in the outside waters, 70 per cent oi those fish taken were found to be sexually immature from one to two years. In Drake and Monterey bay in California the conditions were a little different. They run 7b per cent. However, they make the statement that some of the samples taken may differ, more of a selection. In the latter :>art of August in the outside waters oi the Columbia river the experience has been that about 90 per cent are sexually immature. How, as I look at it now that me., ns a lot, and iust how r.:uch I am not willing to say at the present t ime. A Well, I am disinterested in the Columbia river. I know something about Carje Flattery but I do not know anything about the Columbia river. i IF CHAIRMAN: Well, the reason I mentioned that is that in the discussion with the Canadian officials and with Mr. Payne and others and from their ana our own investigation of the fish in different places It is quite apparent to me that in the feeding grounds along the coast, even from - U1 -Alaska to California, .1 think the conditions ore identical. I think you will find the fish situation about the some, generally speaking, in one place as another. I third: you are all interested in making your living to,/ f i sh i ng . A Yes. The trout which is caught in Puget Sound has been allowed to be caught and no professor has ever made a statement os to killing out the salmon but they come deliberately to Cape Flattery and call the salmon unfit. I have been informed that there was a contract made with Booth and Company back there for their pack of silver- sides one. they gave r.i cents per case more for those cope fish, because it v;as finer quality of fish. Q How man^ more dozen 6o you suppose those cope silver sides would have made if they had been oil owed to have reached tneir ful1 growth? A I do not know that they are immature salmon any more than a fisherman does that goes into a stream and catches a trout. A fish grows, and he has certain perioc-s -md you would say when he is caught in a trap or o gill net that he is rioe to spawn. You might as well say when they are in that condition they are like a sow havint a litter of pigs, that she is not fit for human consumption, a That is n t answering the question. 21 ow, these fish that you mentioned were sold by the packing company at iiosh Bay. I have hauled fish there, from there, a tood many years myself and the fish that brought an extra 35 cents have run on an average of 16 to a case. On the Sound, generally speaking, the average number of fish is about nine. So there is a growth of those fish from the period - 13£ -where they were starting homeward, of a good many pounds. 50 Jr. Booth diu not make much with rci cents more. Everybody l03es b^ such a transaction. A Here is another thing I wish to taxe up: You are inter- ested in preserving fish. Right here is a river and here is another (indicating). This river here is the Hoko (indicating). If ycu have been there you nave sren them draw a dra^-seine across that river and no soon'r has that g one over than there is no ther dragging in there. Illegitimate fishing has been t.oinL on up there and it has been reported but never attended to, and when I sa;, not beint reported I men no reflection on iir. Darwin, but I me* n it has not been reported to the fish commissioners who g0 down there to collect licenses from the drag seines, which bc clear across the mouth of that river. As soon ar one goes across there there is another one out, beinfc laid out while the other is being drawn in and thej pay a man three cents per salmon for catching them and they get six cents and eight cents per pound. F ho you xuiow of any other conditions along the straits of Juan de iuca li^e that? A Well, take the Dunbeness river, there is illegitimate fishing going on there right along. F Arc you acquainted around the Pisht? h Yes, and there is illegal fishing there. Just as soon as fall come*' certain boats put their nets on and L.o down that way and they fish right in the mouth 01 the river. THE CHAIRMAN: That is something that the board can attend to, so you see that you and I are getting together afterall. A I would lix.e to see the fish preserved fell right, but I would like to see it gotten at in the proper places. I believe in the preservation of trout and the carrying on of fishing which i*s legal, but tlie destroying oi fish I think that is a detriment to me as well as the state. iHE CHAIKMAU: Is there anything else that anybody wants to say that comes under the jurisdiction 01 the board. (iio response; TH CFF IhMAiJ: 1 will make a staierntn here: Maybe some of you 60 not hnow it, but'under the law we «je required to 4 give notice of hearings in a paper published at the capital of the state anc thorn, notices are published in the Slorning olympian and til orders promulgated by the board ana all notices of hearings before the board will be filed in that paper. In aouition to tha y we sill keep you advised as much as possible through the press and through the different organizations that you represent and if there is any information we can give you or if you have any information to impart to us upon any subject that comes within our jurisdiction we will be glad to hear from you. K. BEHEY: Regarding the ruling that has been maue in the past month or so regarding the outside fishing: V/hen the hearing v.as taking place at Ilwaco, at that time, I think I am correct, the statement was made by the board that it only referred to the outside waters of the Columbia river fishing, including possibly Willapa Harbor and Grays Harbor. When the ruling was made I noticed it covered clear to Cape Flattery and heah 3sy, or some points near - 1.4 -Neah Bay and across to Vancouver Island. If I had thoufcht at that time that it covered all of those waters I would Lave made a few remarks or suetestiins along those lines. I think the conditions along the Columbia river, including Pi lie pa Harbor and Oroya Harbor, are entirely different from the conditions on the cape. The reasons and the species of salmon are different, but I notice that the ruling covered all of the coast clear to anG insiae Cape Flattery. THE CHAIRMAN: p What seasons are different, Mr. Bery? A The fish at Cape flattery run Is ter than they do on the Columbia River. p When do they comnence catching Chinook salmon on what you call cape fishing? A The t particular season it refers to fall fish an all. 1 think it took in all species of salmon. You made the general statement that the seasons were different, so we will start in with the lirst season. '//hat is the season for catching tne hing salmon in the Cape Flattery fishing? A The fishing is carried on early in the season. it has been done in May and -June. I really think that the proper season would be to commence the first part of July. I think it is a well known fact that in the early part of the season, during may and June there has been a considerable number of immature salmon, springs as well as cohoes. 4 So you think somewhere about the first of July would rieht? A Yes, I think that everybody does. What was the opening of the season that the board mace A The first of July for trollers and the ILth of July for - IS5 -purse-seiners, but I really thirn: that the opening of the season should be the sane for all classes of goar, making no difference whether fish are caufcl t by hook or seine, p When do these young silver salmon run off the cape? A They connence about the midale of June, and sometimes a little earlier. ■p When was the oigge’t catch ever made off Cape Flatter., , at what time of the year, ana whet was'the biggest catch that was made of v.ha t are rinev.n as young silver salmon off Cape Flattery, rather? A I think in the latter part of June and the first part of July. P Wha t y Cci r ■. A 1912 p No, sir, ;you are mistaken. A 1914 THn CHAI ThiN: The biggest catch ever made c f Cape Flattery (interrupted) A 1915, I think £Hs CHAIR1.LJI: 7a s in 1911, and it was caught on the 4th da^ of July. A The biggest catchf;> p Yes A Of young silver salmon? T4F, CHAIHiiAN: Yes, because I got the fish A You mean one particular boat? THy CHAIRMAN: 3ne boat, and I had scow-loads of them, sir!. BERRY: But there has been a considerable amount of fish caught in June, around the 20th of June, there is a good schorl of silver salmon running in there, but the fish - Vc6 -were not fully matured until about the first part of July or the middle of July. I think from the purse-seiners' standpoint that the 10th or 15th of July is quite satisfactory. I do not want to interfere with the trollers, but the season should commence and end for all classes of gear alike, but the closing after August 25th to November ll-th is the time \ hen the fish are entering the Sound ana are fished (interrupted) THE CHAIRMAN: Just a minute, before we Let to this fall season, I am going to agree with ou on one thing, not altogether, but ii is not going to be necessary for us to enter into that at this meeting. There was another purpose involved in this ore1 er. I'e knew that the ruling so far as it pertained to the opening oi the season was absolutely all right. There is practically no conflict as to that. The only objection that is possible is as to the 1st ter part of the season. Now, we arc g.oing to take that up at another time. We ars not going to change it now, because we want to tmake some investigations, so you have until the 25th of -.Ugust at any rate. Now, cy that time we will have made an investigation, the investig.' tion that we want to make and if we find that we have made an error we will change it. Now the object of having it conform vas for the purpose of enforcement, even thoujh they did nst match. Oregon's act was fixed. It could not be altered by. any one. We could mai:e ours to suit the conditions if we wished, but different closed seasons would have made both acts absolutely inoperative ana no harm is ^oin^ to be done until at least Aufcust 25th 10 let us wait now until we are really hurt*MP. BEPPY. The only thing is the man who i3 t oint to catch or can those fish would line to knov. ti few weeks aheud. THE CHAIRMAN: You know that nobody is going to can them. 1VTH. BERK'x : Possibly not. 1 I CHAlFi.iA.li: ASr. V.elch made a statement on hump-backs which goes all along the line. MP. BEHPY: i/.r. ■ elch might possibly be in some different position than the others. HF CHAIRMAN: The market conditions are all alike at any i&te mid you ar not hurt, because you have the up-Sound fishing. If you hao tc depend upon the cape fishing, without the up-Sound fishing there v.d>uld not be any lishing. This is the oiL year which wail extend into august anyway . MP. BEPPY: Supposing the tit run does not come this year- (interruoted) THE CHAIPLu.iJ': 1 have been supposing oil my life, ana it has always gotten me into a lot 01 trouble. So let us wa i t h wh ile on that. FIH. BEPPY: well , that is all I have to say on that then at thi s time. (Whereupon the Chairman declared the hearing closed) - 1S7 -SH222.W2 W36 1921 no.3 Fish-Ocean Stacks