WASHINGTON STATE
FISHERIES BOARD
HEARING
AUGUST 12 1921

SH
222
W2
W36
1921
NO.4

UNIV. OF WASH. LIB.WASHINGTON STATE FISHERIES BOARD

Hearing held at Seattle

August 12, 1921.
(Duplicate)156637
I N D E X
Page
C. J. SEBASTIAN,	2
WILLIAM CALVERT, JR.,	9
21
EDWIN RIPLEY,	24
PROCESSOR JOHN N. COBB,	SO
GEORGE J. EAECKER,	32WASHINGTON S T A T E FISHERIES
BOARD
Hearing held at Seattle, Washington, in the office of the Board, At 10:00 o’clock a. m., August 12, 1921, pursuant to request made by Mr. Edwin Ripley, representing the Puget Sound Wholesale Fresh Fish Dealers' Association, to discuss orders passed affecting Puget Sound.
PRESENT:
E. A. Sims, Chairman, H. Ramwell and Edward P. Blake, members of the Board; L. H. Darwin, Secretary of the Board.STATEMENT OF C. J. SEBASTIAN.
BY THE CHAIRMAN:	Name your company and your business.
A Secretary and Treasurer of the Sebastian Stuart Fish Company.
Possibly a month or so ago, we had a meeting of the Puget Sound Wholesale Fresh Eish Dealers' Association, of which there are --
q What is the name of your association?
A Puget Sound Wholesale Eresh Eish Dealers' Association.
I believe there are about nine of the wholesale concerns that belong to or have a membership in the Association.
The Booth Fisheries Company is the only Seattle concern that is not a member.
THE CHAIRMAN:	Mr.	Ripley, all the members that belong to
the Association have been notified?
MR, EDWIN RIPLEY:	(President-Manager Ripley Eish Co.) Yes,
every one, and I also notified Mr. Haecker, in case he wished to be here. He has withdrawn from the Association for some reason unknown to us.
THE CHAIRMAN:	That is, you advised him to be here?
MR. RIPLEY:	Everybody has been advised, that was a member of the
Association,
MR. SEBASTIAN:	When the various closed seasons were announced
here about a month ago, some of the dealers thought that it was only fair that we get in communication with the Fisheries Board and talk the matter over and possibly there could be some changes made. This may not be the voice of all of the members of the Association, in other words, my idea may not be theirs. Our idea was to get
- 2 -together and talk it over and see what would Toe best, provided that you gentlemen would be --Q (The Chairman) Let me ask you something, Mr. Sebastian. Are you now making a statement for the organization, or for yourself?
A	Wo,	for myself.
Q	All	right. Just	leave	the	organization out	and	just
go	ahead	and state whatever	you	wish.
A	For	this reason,	that the organization as	a	whole	is not
"pat" on one proposition, you see; in other words, in
talking the matter over about having the season open a little later than it does at the present time. I understand the San Juan is not in favor of that, they prefer to have it closed as per the enactment of the Fisheries Board. So I can’t talk for everyone.
Q There are net many members of the organization, anyway, and they all have had an opportunity to be here, so just simply tell your individual A	I feel this way about it, that	as far as	sockeyes and
humpies are concerned, that it	is a very	good prox>csition
that the season is closed on the 26th of	this month,
instead of running along until	September	15th, or whatever
it is. I think that gives the humpies a chance to get through, and it may possibly give a few springs a chance to get through, and some silvers. As far as the fresh fish dealers are concerned --Q	You are talking of the season from the 26th of August?
A	August 26th until September ICth or 15th -- which is it?
Q	The 15 th.A	The 15th of September, that is it. And then the next
closed --
MR.	RAM WEIL:	You say you think that --
A	I think that is all right, yes.
MR.	RAMWELL:	That is a good idea.
A	A good idea. I think our humpies need protection,	I	think they
would be in the same condition as sockeyes.
MR. RAMWELL:	Surely, but you made the statement here a little
while ago about when Order	No. 11 went	out	about	a month
ago. As	a matter of fact,	it is pretty near	two	months
ago.
A	Yes, it is possibly two months ago.
Q	(The Chairmanj It went into effect July 20th?
A	Yes. How, the next closing is on October 26th. How,
it really makes it a very short season on the dogs, and	the best	run of dog salmon is the	end of	October,
and	it is going to, I believe, work a	hardship	on	the
wholesale fresh fish dealers. If that season could remain open from October 26th to November 10th,	in	addition to what it is at the present time, it would	help
all of the fresh fish dealers considerably, I believe.
MR.	Ri MWELL:	As a matter of fact, that is the closing, isn’t
it?
A	What is that?
MR.	RAMWELL:	Is	not the 10th the closing	now?
A	No,	November	10th was the close.
MR.	RAMWELL:	That was the old	law?
A	That was	the old law, yes;	but the new	law	I	understand
is that it closes October 26th.
MR. RAMWELL:	Yes. A matter of fourteen days.
- 4 -A	A matter of fourteen	days, yes.	It	is not very much,
but at the same time	that gives	the	dogs an opportunity
to get through -- it	would give	the	dogs an opportunity
to get through from .November 10th until January IVth, which was formerly open, or the major portion	of it,
and there are immense numbers of dogs that go	through
in November and December and even in January.
Q	(The Chairman) Mr. Sebastian, don!t let’s get confused
here. You know a part of the Sound is closed on November 10th and some another date, although Puget Sound as a whole is practically closed on the 10th?
ME. RAMWELL:	Yes.
A	We ran our boat steady right up until January	17th every
year. Part of the Sound was closed, but they	simply
shifted the fishermen to the other end.
Ml.	RAMWH1L:	I think you will find the Canal was	left open,
wasn't it, until the 15th of November?
A	How about West Pass?
q	(The Chairman) I say, as a general proposition the only
part that was left open, of Puget Sound, after November 10th, was a small portion of the whole Puget Sound?
A	Sure, but as long as part Of it was cpen, it simply
meant that there was intensive fishing in that particular spot that was open.
Q	I guess we understand one another now
A	I know that there were different sections of it closed.
On November 10th they closed the upper Sound, and then they had Hood's Canal open, I believe.
- 5 -MB- RAMWELL:	For	five	days longer.
A Yes, until the 15th, and then on December 1st they started fishing down below here, at 'west Pass, Fo:c Island, and all through that section, and they did catch a lot of dog salmon.
I don't believe that it would hurt the run of dog salmon to any great extent to have the season extended from October 26th to November 10th; at the same time,
it would help «s considerably.
c Mr. Sebastian, you didn't attend the general meeting June 20th?
A I did not.
Q I will tell you the object of this closed period ending October 26th. The question came up as to how to save and cut the tail end of the salmon, give them an opportunity to get to the rivers, and it was conceded, as I remember, that practically October 25th was about as late a date as it would be possible to leave ar^ supply to get to the streams. Then the question arose if they needed that curtailment, which everybody seemed to agree that they did, running into the hump or chum or dog run that you have mentioned, naturally there was going to be a curtailment of the dog catch during the period of time when the smaller production was on. Then the question arose whether it might not be a satisfactory arrangement to have that closed period or a closed period from October 26th to some other date, to t^Ye the silvers a chance to get by, and then to open the gate for the dog run.
As a matter of fact, when I come to think about it,
6they figured that the silver run should have been closed a little earlier, to have got by, instead oi'
October 25th. A great many said, "Well, if we stop fishing on October 29th, for instance, for ten or fifteen days, we have f.ot cur equipment partially laid up and the fall weather is on, and we think we will get better results by having the two of them run in together." We certainly have got to have a certain period to get the tail end of the silvers by. 11 ow, whether it is satisfactory or whether it can be worked out so that a longer season would be inauguarated later on for the dogs, even than November 10th, that in my mind is the only thing that really is involved, because the silvers have certainly got to have some protection.
Now, how are you going to give it to them?
A Well, I don’t know of any way that you can give it to them without closing the season.
Q You have got to give them some period in which they are free to get by. Now, some even wanted to have a later closed	season, in	September.	Well,	if you made a
later closed	season and	an earlier	closed	season in October,
there would not be any season at all. °>° we tried to match the	seasons as	much as we	couiu.	We are satisfied that the seasons	are shorter than they ought to
be — the closed periods, but for this particular year, when everything is in turmoil ind upset, it loked as if it would be better to end fishing all at the same time than to have broken periods. If it didn’t work eood , we had an opportunity to change it, and we will have an opportunity to change when we get up
- 7 -to that time. For instance, suppose the big run happened to be later, we may be barking up a tree here that is not going to bite us at all. For instance, we might get	an earlier run of dogs;	it	depends on
the streams,	and that was the ob.iect	in	the Legislature
giving these elastic powers, or the elastic arrangement, rather, by having it so legislation or rules could be fixed to meet the runs of the fish and the conditions.
I ow, if you can tell us how we can protect those silvers and at the same time arrange it so that the seasons won’t be so b^:. dly broken, so that tne fisherman and the operators can be satisfactorily dealt with, we will be glad to do it. But we haven’t made this present order with our eyes shut or wits out any information or consideration. It is considerable of a problem.
A Well, as far	as I am conerned, I really	felt that I
would, rather	see the silvers getting	five more days	in
September and t:ive the dogs five more days in October*
Q	You mean you would sooner see	the September season --
A	Extended,	because the silvers	will get	more protection
there than they will —
Q That is a mooted question. Myself, I am converted to the other theory. The theory is that if they had until the 20th of September, for instance, that there would be more getting by. I do not think there is anything,	logically, in that,	for this	reason:	that the
testimony	at the hearing that	we held,	and the experience
of myself and those that we have discussed this question with, are that the fish that are coming at that period really are as far, practically, from being ready to .
- 6 -spawn or are about ready to spawn at the same time as those that come later, and that is generally the experience. And so, as a matter of feet, although it would appear that there was a closed period allowing them to get by, it don't allow them to get into the streams, because September is the lowest period of water in the rivers, our streams not commencing to rise until October. How, I think the largely accepted theory of both the Federal authorities and the men in Alaska --this has been up before Congress, I have been down there on this same subject -- is to ^et the fish to come, give them free access when they are nearest the period
of when they want to have their later spawning,
A Of course, that can easily be shown.’ We have a record
of what silvers were caught in some of the rivers during September, and it will tell the story. You got quite a few silvers from the Snohomish last September, didn’t you, Hr. Calvert?
MB. WILLIAM CALVERT, Jr. (President, San Juan Fishing and
Packing Co. ):	I don’t believe we got many in the early
pa r t of S ep t emb e r.
MR. SBBASflAIJ:	The Everett Fish Company ran quite a few
Sown to me.
MR. CALVERT:	You take the Skagit, for years we have had
the contract for the Skagit River fish, both from the fishermen and from a groat many of the traps, and our experience has been that there have been very few fish caught in the rivers, or in the Skagit, anyway, up until the 10th of September - that is, silvers I mean. There have been some caught in the tr-_ ps up to the 10th,■but very little have been caught in the rivers. I am
firmly of the opinion that the closing of the season at the earlier part of the season, as far as affects the silvers, would be of practically no benefit to serve the silvers. They do not spawn and go up the rivers until la ter.
MR. HA MW ELL:	They	are	not	ready	to	spawn, as you know.
You know that in the last of October you get the silvers and dogs, and they are all full of spawn at that time, an# being ready to spawn, that is the proper period to let them go up the rivers.
MB. CALVERT:	Vha	t	silvers	we	’nave	got	up to that time,
the spawn would be very small. Very little matured.
MR. 3EBASTIAJ:	It	is a fact t at they are not matured as
fully, but quite a number will get into the rivers anyway .
THE CHAIRMAN:	Mr. Sebastian, there were two or three
representatives of the different rivers, from the Skagit particularly. I remember those better than I do the Snohomish. There ?*?ere the South Fork fellows, I think they called themselves, and the regular La Conner fishermen, and it seems to me the Stillaquamish, too. I remember the testimony , iven about the length of time that the fish lay in front oi those rivers and it is really astonishing to find how long in some years they were there. As a matter of fact, as I remember, I believe some of them laid there as long as practically up into November before they started up the streams, So I am satisfied in my own mind that the generally accepted theory is that the best fish or the bent fish to get a benefit
- 10 -from the	fish go in*;	to the spawning grounds	are	the
last instead of the	first end of the run.
A Well, I might simply state that as far as I am concerned, of course, I want	to	see these	laws	as	they are enacted
do the fish the most	amount of	good	as	far as propagation
is concerned, and if in the idea of the Commission they feel that it would be better to have the season open up as they have it and close in October as they have it, instead of giving	us	five more	days	of	the tail end
instead of at the	beginning, why, I	am	willing to let
it go for the benefit of the industry.
Q Here was another thing they brought up also:	that	the
very question that you brought up of extending or making the time longer in September was brought tip by somebody in the meeting. Somebody else got up and made the statement that there^was another economic reason why that should not be - that the fish that were taken in the earlier period of the season were much more marketable and	much more satisfactory fish than	those	taken at
the tail	end of the	season. So there are	a	lot	of
things —
A I do not believe that is correct, because the dogs that we get —
Q We are talking about silvers, Hr. Sebastian.
A Oh.
Q. This came up on the question, you know, of the period — of having a closed period to get the Silvers by , how-much we could take off the front end and kind of match the front with ^he back, so as not to make an unsatisfactory arrangement for the fishermen or the operators,
- 11 -and a great many of these points were brought up on this question, and of course in other hearings we have had on the Columbia liver and elsewhere.
MR. L. H. DARWIN:	It	might interest these gentlemen to
know that so far as the actual taking of the silvers’ spawn is concerned, the great bulk of that is taken on Puget Bound in December and January, rather than at eny earlier period.
Q	I just want to bring	to	your attention something that
has not been	brought	up	here, but it might be inter-
esting to you gentlemen to know this. This is a statement by Mr. O’Malley, Manager of t e Fisheries Bureau for the Pacific Coast, This statement is the take of humpback salmon in the Puget Sound hatcheries over a period from 1913 to 1919, and it certainly is very discourageing. (Reading from statement found on Pages 17 and 18 of Hearing held at Seattle June 20, 1921).
The peculiar thing about this whole statement here is that it did all occur in one place. Each place has gradually gone down hill. For instance, in 1914 they took at Brinnon 20,692,000; in 1915 they took 2,200,000. ■How, I presume that
A	That is 10%.
Q	I didn't ask	Mr. O’Malley about this, but possibly
he might have had some lone stations or this may be representative of several streams tributary to Brinnon, nevertheless it applies for Hoods Canal, and that is about the scale that the whole thing has -- it is down hill, liow, that is sort of enlightening. We had also a comparative statement of Mr. Darwin on other things,
- 12 -and the information from a statistical point, is that the thing is gradually on f 11 grades going down hill and going town too often.
A	There is one other thing that I would like to talk	about
and that is this:	In this line of business we	all
make some kind of preparation for the season, as we have had to begin that at the beginning of the season, and if there are going to be changes made continually, it works a hardship on the concerns that are planning ahead.
Q	Mr. Sebastian, 1 am glad you brought that up.
A	If we knew in advance, it would be helpful.
Q	You had plenty of time in advance, but you are	just
like I have been and like a great many others of us. Everyone realized, in the fish business, before the last Legislature met, that there was goinfc to be a practical change in fishing legislation. There were demands made by the fishermen themselves. They knew that there was a necessity for changes from the fishing conditions and from things th■ t had been presented in the Legislature before. It was inescapable. A system was worked out, giving these powers of where, when and how to this board. I think everyone that was in the fishing business and had any capital invested knew of those events and knew what was taking place. For instance, Mr. Gray will remember the very first day we took office, which was April 1st, we held a meeting on the first thing that applied6 We had stated, in the columns of the fishing magazine, I think, and in the press generally, that regulations as to Pueet Sound as a whole were not
- lrc -going to be enacted until we knew what action we could take or what cooperation we could get from the Canadian officials, because our action dei^ended largely on theirs and theirs largely on ours if we were going to have any
harmonious working or any results. 1 regret if an; one
has made any arrangements that are ; oin^ to be of any
serious loss to them through, as you say, not knowing, but I think that there was sufficient information generally to the fishing public that there were to be
■	changes made in the Session itself; that the Session decided that the changes should be passed to another body, and many people called us up before even we went into office, asking us about certain things. How, it is tru& that we could not definitely decide on any particular point as we are here today. le have asked the rnen who were interested in the business what things would be the best things for the business, that would not upset their fishing or 'the canning or fresh fish operations; and that is the way we have tried to guide ourselves*
I am satisfied that some have been hurt quite seriously, and it is unfortunate, but they had better &et hurt now, because the fish business is about on its last legs.
A Well, now, of course if those things are going to be the same next year, in making our contracts next year and arranging for funds and one thing another, we can figure on that basis anc know that we are safe in doing so „
Q Mr. Sebastian, here is another thin^ that we have stated; of course, it may have been overlooked. We realize
14 -that a treat many of these things maj he subject to change„ Our idea at the present time was this fall, after we have seen how they harmonize, how they work out, how the dates match with the runs and the other conditions, - that when we do get a set of regulations now for 1922, they will be permanent for the year, unless some necessity of usine this elastic proposition should be found, for instance, if the run were later than the date that we thought that they usually or found that they usually had been, or if they were earlier; but, as a general proposition, the rules the board will finally work out from the results of the things that we have passed will be an established factor.
How, here is another thing that is coming up and that may delay that. There is a movement on foot right now, a discussion amorgst fish men as to conditions on both the sockeyes and humpbacks principally, and many are forwarding the idea of a closed season for a period of years, some do not know how long, some have specific ideas, maybe not founded on fact, some just a general idea that there should be a closed period.
There is the gen. ral proposition, and when ’we get through with this we will see what has happened. There may not be any fishing next year.
A	If there is no fishing	next year, won’t	that	eliminate
one of the biggest industries in the state of Washington?
Q	.'.ell , that is just the	point. It looks	like	there	is
not any Industry left,	Mr. Sebastian.
A	There may not be in the canning line, but there is	in
- 15 -the fresh fish line.
Q. As I say , If you will just refer back there a moment, the men that are talking that now-It is occasioned by the sockeye and humpback question. I do not mean that there will he an entire cessation of fishing, possibly, for all the grades, because I think myself, from ray own experience, that the spring salmon are possibly holding their own.
A	2r e t ty ne a rl y
Q,	I think possibly the chums are holding their own. There
might be a slight variation in that, I would not want to say right "off the batTT, but we do know that the sockeyes are ^one and it looks like the humpies are following suit.
A	Is there any truth in the rumor that	the	season will
not be closed on August 26th as laid	down by the Fisheries
Board?
Q Well, we are coming back to this question of conditions. How, we find tho sockeyes are &.one* We made a rule that affected the humpbacks. The rule was made so that we could allow the tail end of the sockeyes to get into the Fraser iver. There are conditions that mi^ht make it necessary to change that rule. I have not seen them yet* For instance, let’s say that British Columbia allows their fishermen ct operate to	the	eeexclusion Of
our citizens; I do not think that we	are	sit.
by and allow our citizens to be taken advantage of.
A	Bo, but at the same time you are not helping the hump-
backs any under that situation, are you?
Q,	Well, that is the trouble about the necessity of co-
- 16operative action in regard to fish by two countries.
A Well, you will at least save the humpies that spawn,
and there are a lot of humpies that spawn on ruf;et Sound, that is, in ?utot Sound streams, you know, and you will at least give- them a chance to get through.
ell, let's see thi s, Mt* Sebastian. Of course, the only thing that would affect the question that I brought • up would be the fish that are going to British waters.
In o t] er words, practically the only humpbacks that we have or control ire those that come through Deception Pas end come up by Admiralty Inlet. When they get in those confines, they are within the state. Would it not jpfe unf-iir to the fellows that by investment and otherwise were confined to the district south of those points to allow the fellows that were fishing in the area that went to British waters to fish and exclude the other ones? Could we very well say "from Point ilson to Whidby Island north and north of Deception Pass in all of the waters of the state the operators of the state of washinL ton can fish as long as those operators in Jritish Columbia, but those south of that point must come under order such-aiid-such"?
A The only thijjig to do is to close the business and those that happened to be fishing up around the Gulf or some such place would have to take the same orders as the others.
Q That is the closing ques tion. The question you ra ised was whether there was any question of opening.
A Yes.
Q The question of opening depends, as I see it at the present time, largely on the action of British Columbia. If
- 1? -British Columbia allows their citizens to fish, would you say that we ought to remain closed, when the fish that our citizens would catch ~~
A	It	is a case of protecting	our fish, and it seems to
me	the citizens of British	Columbia or the government
of	British Columbia should	not interfere one way or
the other. We have got to take this, Mr. Sims, on the principle of propagating these fish, especially these silvers that you were talking about so much a little while ago, and the same proposition should also apply to the humpies because the late silvers go through with them, too.
Q	Would you, if you were a fisherman, feel satisfied if
the State fisheries Board	were to continue the order
in effect prohibiting the	fishing after August 26th
to September 15th, in the	waters in which those fish
were passing, that later or during the period were being caught in British waters -- would you feel satisfied?
A	If it was for the benefit	of the whole, I certainly would,
and that is the statement	I made a little while ago,	if
these conditions are for the benefit of the industry,
I will then take off my hat and cuit, I am satisfied; but I maintain that the same for the humpies or any other kind of fish --Q	All right.
A	—	because there are a lot	of them that are going to
other streams, and if it is going to affect one, it is going to affect them all, and if British Columbia does not see fit to follow our example and give them a fair chance, why, you can’t stop them, that's a cinch.
- 16 -MR.	HAMWELL:	There is	just	one point that occurs to me.
You made	a kind of	a statement that was somewhat of
a criticism of the Board..
A No, not intentionally.
MR. RAMWELL:	You stated that by not knowiing, you made
contracts and so forth.
A Well, that was not meant as a criticism.
MR.	RAMWELL:	By iinference,	though, that y'ou should know
a year ahead. You	must	recall this Board took office,
came into power, on April 1st, and on April 1st this Board held a meeting. So we didn,t lose much time, did we?
A	No, no.
"MR.	RAMWELL:	We held a meeting the day we took office. 
A I think that either I did not make myself plain or you misunderstood me. What I meant was more in the f u ture , ins t ead of th e pa s t.
MR. RAMWELL.:	Oh.
A There was no criticism intended, whatsoever.
MR. RAMWELL:	We could not have done anything before we
took offiee.
A NO.	|!	^
MR. RAMWELL:	And	we	took	aciion	as	soon	as	we	did	take
office.
A	I was just asking more for inform.ation in reference to
the future than criticizing anything that had happened in the past. 1 have no criticism to offer, whatsoever.^
Q	(The Chairman) Mr. Seoastion, as a general proposition'
- 19 -what you are after is really to ascertain if the Board can see fit to work this problem out so that the season can be extended further for dog salmon - that is what you are after?
A That is what 1 would like to see, is to have it extended either to the 5th or 10th of November.
Q Is there anything about any of these other orders that have been passed -- while we are all here -- that you wish to say anthing about ?
A I have nothing to talk about outside of that.
MR. RAMWELL:	As a matter of fact, wouldn’t you get enough
dogs up to the £6th of October?
A My recollection is that the heavy run of dogs has
always borne somewheres between the 25th of October ant the 5th of November.
MR, RAMWELL:	My records show earlier than that. I have got
day by day there. I can show you where we got more dogs previous to that than we got after that. They were thinning down by that time -- both the silvers and the dogs .
A I suppose it a 1 depends upon where you get them.
Our run for years, that is, the number of dogs that we got for fresh fish business over on the other side --
MR. R/MWELL:	West Pass?
A Ho, over around Roint-No-Point and --
MR. RAMWELL:	That is where we got them, we got them from
the same place.
A Is that so?
MR. RAMWELL:	Yes, and they were getting pretty thin-and
ready to spawn about that time. They were reallythe best dogs to go up the river. They were not as good a dog, either, for fresh fish purposes or for c a n ning purposes.
A But it has not been my experience. My experience has been that there is always a new run strikes in around there aoout the 25th of October. Thank you.
STATEMENT OR TILL I AM CALVERT, Jr.
(President, San Juan Fishing & Packing. Co.
As Mr. Sebastian stated in the beginning we were not altogether .agreed on the rulings of the Board. Of course, it is very evident to anyone that somebody is going to have to curtail their operations if we are going to conserve this industry, and, to put the matter briefly, I felt and everyone connected with our institution has felt that the Board worked this matter out in a very good manner. I doubt very much whether it could be worked out any more equitably than you have worked it out, conserving the seasons.

MR. RAMWELL:	I	am Llad you feel that way .
M I] |
A And as far as the fresh fish industry is concerned,
I think that it would be a mistake to extend the period.
'\
very much longer. I do not believe it would conserve
\y'	/•
these silvers to extend that period much longer. I
1 i I
agree with Captain Ramwell that the biggest run of dogs
\ ' j \ |;
and the best dogs are obtained before the 25th of OctoberThere is a little spurt of dogs that comes about the loth of November at West Pass. We look for them about the 10th of November. Between the 25th and the 10th of Jovember our records show there have not been very many fish caught, and it is the tail end of the first run and as a rule are not very good fish for fresh fish purposes; and 1 simply want to go on record as saying I think you have worked out a mighty good system.
MR. RAMWELL:	I am glad to hear you say that, because we
have put in a lot of	tim. , thinking	it over.
A The only other thing I would like to see you do would be
to try to bring those Care dians to time. I do not know how you are going to do it.
MR.	RiMWELL:	You people do not realize what we have done
trying to do that. Mr. Darwin and I were up at West-
minster with them only two days ago, and we thought probably we might by a little moral persuasion get them
to do something, and I think we did a lot of food.
A The closed .season of the 25th to the 15th - when things first hit us we begin to look, we think we aie hurt, but, as a matter of fact, 1 think that is a rattling good thing, because you take out t e poor spring salmon from the 25th of August to the 10th of September. The 15th of September the spring salmon that you eet are of mighty poor qua1i ty.
MR.	SEBASTIAN:	What dates are those?
A	The 25th of August until the 15th of September. They
are not suitable for mild-curing purposes, and they are n?ghty poor for fresh fish purposes, they are allhea vy wi th s pawn.
(The Chairman} Isn’t it at that time when the large percentage of whites rim?
Yes, the whites are much heavier during the period, and also reds which you do get .yon know they are just ready to break, ost of them, and they are of very little value, and it is where the bluest waste takes place in the fre°h fish business, in spring salmon, is from the 25 th of August to the 16 th of September; that is the time when we have to dump a lot of fish. j*r. Calvert, just a moment. Please tell us bow you find the run 01 steel heads as compared with former years?
Well, I don't know; I don’t know whether any increase or not. Jf course, our season for catching, steelheads has been very much curtailed, you know, the last two or three years. In the old days the rivers — we used to get a great many steelheads during January and February. uJell „ you see that season is closed, it is closed then, - rc we really have net much of an o ;,por-tunity o f jud ging.
DABWIN:	Aren11 y o u mistaken o n t h a t ?
In the rivers.
DAHWIIJ:	In the rivers. Is not there a special provision
to allow fishing in the rivers north of Brace Point after February 28th? (Beading)
I was wtong about that.
CHAIBMAB:	What	has	been	the	experience,	Mr*	Darwin,
in the hatcheries, say in recent years, sa^ the last four or five years, as compared with former years, onthe steelhead take?
DA'MWIH:	As	to	our	steelhead take this year, we have
been putting in new hatcheries and extending our operations to get more steelhead eggs, so it is not a question that can be answered by a positive "Yes" or ,f2foTt, except that we do know that this year, with the same ha tchery capacity as last year, we have fa 1 1 en down me t erially .
I was g o i ng 'to say that I don't pay much attention to steelheads, tney are sort of a side issue, out as I think back the last two or three years it has shown a decided falling off in steelheads, especially as fas as the Skagit giver is concerned. They have not caught the steelheads that they did in former years, but we ha n d1e v e ry f ew a nyway .
STATEMENT OF EDWIN RIPLEY (Pres.-Manager, Ripioy pish Co *;
In relation to these open ano closed -easons, as I have told you and mr, Darwin many times, 1 thought the orders that you out in, as Mr. Calvert says, were the best, with the idea in view of getting the very best resu.1 ts.
The question came up as to just what was covered, and 1 refer especially to what we have always had every year, say when we had a closed season somewhere and had £ little open factor, it was a1ways annoying eomebody.I refer to Grays Harbor, for instance. We were closed here on one day, we will say the 10th of Aovembej , and
they would come along to — was it the first of December or the 15th of December?
Q (The Chairman) Mr. Ripley, excuse me just a moment.
I think the thing that you have in mind is being obviated in the State Legislature. As I remember it, at the present time, the law allows fish that are legally taken in one section of the slate to be transported into another section.
MR. DARfliJ:	I	will	tell	you	what	Lr.	Ripley has in mind,
lie has in mind a condition which we are never going to be able to overcome, and that is that your runs of salmon in the Grays Harbor district arm in the Puget Sound district occur at different times. Therefore, if you are going to permit your fish to be sold in the state in a certain district, irrespective of whether it is
lawful to take fish in that district, just so long as they are legally caught in another district in the state, you will never be able to obviate kr. Ripley’s objection, because the fish runs , as I know and as ou gentlemen know, occur at a different time. That is, as you say, your dogs, we will say, for instance, occur at a different time on Grays’ Harbor from what they occur on Puget Sound.
THE CEAIftHAN:	Let	me	give	you an actual experience we
had happen to us. We had a hearing on Wilisps Harbor.
It looked to me like everybody in the country was there. We talked upon pretty near every subject that seemed to be involved in the business - the dates of when the fishrun in the harbor and the different rivers; and so we went to work and promulgated a rule. Much to our surprise an S. 0. 8. came out from the fellows, in the Horth River and they said, nHeyJ Our run is over before their season opens on the South Rivern. I looked at the petition of seven or eight of them and some of the fellows that were on the petition lad been at the meeting I said, "That is queer business”« So we sent a man down. 1 think Mr. Seaborg also was down, and we found, as a matter of fact, that the fish in the ilorth River actually were over at the time when the other season started and the season for the balance of the whole harbor. Mow, if we had had a firm, compact, iron-clad season, which we would have had if the Legislature had passed it, those fellows would have been entirely out of business for that year or for two years or until it had been changed. Bow, that actually occurred.
LIE. RIPLKY; What I especially referred to was --
I may be personally wrong in this, I may not have seen all of the fish that came from that section, but I have not seen up to the 15th of November a fisst-class fish that came from Grays Harbor; they have either been red skin silvers or darkly discolored fish, and it looked to me like the fish were very close to their spawning period, and that if we closed here they should close the r e a n d let t h em a 11 h a v e a chance.
JHE CHAIRMA21:	1 will jjust give you those seasons and we
will see how they compare, low, the Willa pa district is closed on iioveraber 20th, but if I correctly remember the evidence, the chums or the dogs run previous to thatand this is the closing of the silver season.
MS. RIPLEY :	I think so.
THE CHAIRMAN:	As it is in Grays Harbor.
MR. RIPLEY:	Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN:	In other words, they are reversed.
We have the silvers and then the dogs; they have first
the spring then the dogs and then the silvers. I think
the silvers are last down there.
MR. DARWIli:	The silvers are last In Grays Harbor ail right.
ME. SHBASTIAH:	What	is	the	date	that	no	season 	is open
in the state o 1* Washington?
THE CHAIRMAN:	The	26th	of October to the 30th of April.
MR. SEB: STIA1!:	I	thought	you stated something: about November
EOtl.
THE CHAIRMAH:	This is Grays Harbor.
MR. SEBASTIAN:	The dates that we have in the state of Washing-
ton a
THE CHAIRMAN:	Oh, in the state of Washington.	The	one	I
have a copy of is fillapa. That is the 20th.
MR SEBASfAIM:	That is the 20th, ;.os.
THE CHAIRMAN: Then to be open January 15th to March 15th.
MR SEBASTIAN:	That	is	for	steelheads.
THE CHAIRMAN:	llov;, in the Grays Han or District, the fall
season closes on November 151h and sfehe steelhead season
is the same as in Willapa, January 15th to March 15th.
I think they have about sixty days’ fishing out of the season in one of the harbors and ninety days in the other - that is for the year.
MR. RIPLEY:	I	had	one	other	point	 I brought	 up with	Mr. Darwin in relation to general fishing, and that wasthat I have had comraunications from customers in Idaho, particularly, and along the head waters of the 3nake ana the Columbia, in which they say, "Vie can’t use any salmon now for some time. The peddlers are bringing wagon loads out of the Snake River and carrying them all through the country”. I tola -~r. Darwin it seemed
I
that with all the efforts to protect the fish th.st get up into the streams, that after they got two thousand miles from the mouth of the river there ought to he some legislation to protect, fish that were there to spawn - not that they are coming, "feck into Puget Sound at all, but for the general protection of the fish in general, and he said that would have to be done through cooperation of the Washington, Idaho and Oregon Pish Commissions.
THE CHA1BMAB:	We did close up the Columbia Biver above where
the boundary of Oregon and Washington are together, and we had protests from fishermen in that locality.
Much to our surprise, we found that Idaho permitted fishing, and the same thing applies somewhat is between our own states. The thing would apply something like tills, that if the fishermen, on the Oregon side were allowed to operate in t: e waters of the whole river and our fellows were si tting on the bank watching them, it would seem rather a hardship, and we have
decided to open up a small portion of the river
f
where that is effective. But here are the records of the fish. They do not amount to much as a whole.
34-49 steelheads were taken, 295 sockeyes, 36 silvers
- m -and 237 —
ME. RIP LEY:	Where was this?
THE CHAIRMAN:	This is during the year, that is, being
fish taken by the fishermen of the state of Washington.
MR. RIPLEY:	That	is	the Snake River?
THE CHAIRMAN:	In the waters yon are speaking about, in
the Snake. And 14 sturgeon. So, if they are going to flood
the country with that many, it is not much of a market anyhow.
UR. RIPLEY:	’No, ’but Whst I was referring to especially wa
the fact that the fish, as our customers said, were being peddled in wagon loads in the vicinity of Lewiston and in that vicinity up in Idaho, at different periods of the year. Perhaps only two or three weeks ago.
THE CHAIRMAN:	We	sent Mr. Jack 8haw over tr-ere. He has
been in the fish business in years gone by and is a very level-headed fellow. He is now in Ur. Darwin’s department. The Board sent him over to make an investigation . In going around the community to find out just exactly what conditions were, he found that as a matter of fact* the farmers would come and wait maybe a day or two days until a few fish were taken, so that they could get a few. Bo I think you can see from these numbers that unless the Idaho fellows are taking ' them, and I can’t see ~
MR. RIPLEY:	It is the Idaho people.
THE CEAIEMAI4:	Why	would the Idaho fellows be mar e prolific
in catching fi*sh than the Washington fellows?
MR.•DARWIN:	Some of those streams go up against falls.
THE CHAIRMAN:	Well,	I	was just speaking of Washington. Idon’t know anything about that, although we have hot i t up wi th the Idaho fellows now.
MB.	."IPLliY:	Wagon loads being	peddled through the country	--
of course	a wagon load may	be a l’ew or may be a great
ra any.
MR. HAMWELL:	The	record	we * ot was just one little fishing
ground and there were two or three fellows fishing that one ground, a matter of a mile. That is in our territory. Vhat they are doing in Idaho we do not know* although we have got it up with Idaho.
P B OF. J OH It 1J.	C OBB (College of	Miseries, U -i i v e r s i t y o f 7/a s h-
ingtonj:	It is quite important up at Sand point and
through there.
THE CHAII&5AI3:	I	would like myself to get a little more
clearly in mind the first proposition that you brought up because, really, to be frank, I haven't Just got the point you are getting at, that is, being allowed to fish in one locality when thej are closed in another.
MR. RlPLit:	The point, as I said, hinges on this, that
if we have a closed season here on the 10th of November,
I have nevei seen fish come from Grays Harbor good enough sc that they should be permitted to be open any longer, because they were poor, ana in fact letit year 1 called Sr. Darwin’s particular attention to a carload of fish that was shipped out on the 7th or 6th of December, and those fish were reported to be very poor and inferior fish -- dark and discolored and the silver salmon red skinned, etc. So, as I say, it corroborated what I bed said all of the time, that the fish were not what we call first-class, merchantable quality afterthe time that they are closed here on the Sound --
THE CHAIRMAN:	1 will tell you what we are going to do.
Even if they do run later, we are going to make an investigation of both Willapa and Grays Harbor when the run is on, that is, during the period of what they call the heavy run and the tail end of the season, just for the purpose of finding out whether we have got the point at the richt time. Whether i1 would be entirely proper or ststi sfactory or whether it ought to be a uniform date I would not want to say right at this moment.
MK, DAPWI.N:	Mr.	Chairman, might I try to explain what 1
think is his complaint? J?’or instance, you just referred to the fact that on 0-rays Harbor and Willapa Harbor,
.7 ilia pa Harbor particularly, you had an open season there from the ‘15th of January until the 15th of uiarch; that open season is for all grades of fish, of course, yet during the same time you have a closed season on Puget Bound, because your closed season starts on Puget Sound on October 26th and extends until the 30th of April. During that open season from January 15th to March 16th, fishermen on Willapa Harbor are taking fish and shipping them up to Puget Sound, perfectly legally. But that is the thing that iJr. Ripley thinks should be obviated and done away with. You cannot do that, as I look at it, i.'r. Chairman, for the reason that the fish run down there at a different time fi*orn what our fish run.	'*ou wou 1 d have to e 1 os e
their fishing.
MR. PIPLEY:	I am objecting to this fall run of fish.
THE C JAI;-:MAII:	We are going to look into that and see
31wh e ther the dates match t h e i r run.
MR * RAMWELL:	H o w ever* we are L, o i ng to go r i gh t d own
on the ground ourselves. We are go in,- to lock at it ourselves so that we will know. We will not take
socond-l)and infomme ' ion.
MR. RIPLEY:	We	nil know that the steelhead run does
not really affect any other condition, because there are only a few of them anyhow and they are usually high-priced and just a few people want them during those closed seasons. They come fit a time when frozen fish generally is being distributed and they act like a specialty. Some hotels or restaurants ha Yin* the trade want that particular fish during the period
when other fresh fish are not obtainable,
THE CHAISMAH:	Does any other gentleman wish to say a
few words9
Statement of GEORGE J. HAECZER (Manager, Booth Fisheries Co.)
I have a few remarks.
Q (The Chairman) Please give your name.
A George J. Hoecker, Booth Fisheries Company. In regard
*
to the tax --Q We have nothing to do with the tax, whatever,
A	You have nothing to do with the tax?
Q	The only thing we have is where, when and how.
-MR. RAMWELL:	You	are	out	of	court
MEETIHG ADJOURNEDDate Due			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
S. F. No. 3173—1931. 20M 9-31 74-U			
SH222.W2 W36 1921 no. Fish-Ocean Stacks